SWAG. SWAG. SWAG. SWAG.
April 17, 2011 4:20 AM Subscribe
TFA is seriously overthinking it.
Let me draw a parallel to something relatively uncontroversial: Roller coasters. Nothing offensive about them, but why do people ride? In some absolute sense there is no upside whatsoever to the experience of riding a roller coaster; in the really aggressive ones you are almost literally clamped in, there is real (if small) danger of serious injury as you experience forces powerful enough to kill you should any small thing go wrong, and once the ride starts there is no way out -- no kill switch, no safe word, only the certainty of several minutes of terrifying motion.
Yet people ride these things; I rode the one that circles the New York New York casino twice. It's not that the ride makes you feel good, or even as some would claim the relief of surviving the experience at the end, it's that it makes you feel different. In a culture where our feelings are so often carefully channeled, that has intrinsic value.
The world is full of popular things that are far more offensive than rap lyrics about rape. (SAW movies anyone?) But nobody is going to kill someone because they saw a SAW movie, and nobody is going to commit a rape because they listened to Odd Future; the people who actually do things like that are broken on a level that makes art irrelevant. I don't even think, as TFA finally suggests, that the usefulness of the art is to get those impulses out of our system; I think most of the people who ride roller coasters have no desire to die violently in a car crash any more than most viewers of SAW movies are inclined to commit a violent murder.
What I think is going on here is that we have a favorable instinct toward experiencing new things, even if those new things are somewhat unpleasant. I think the humor some people (TFA author included) claim to feel is a defense mechanism masking the more basic fact that it is interesting to find an unsuspected connection to something so different from ourselves as a murderer or rapist or the protagonist of Crash. If we are very lucky we might find that a great mystery, the why of such people who are not limited as we are by considerations of justice, punishment, or mercy, is not quite so mysterious. And our instinct is to favor learning things like that, even if we learn something about ourselves and our species that overall we'd rather not know.
posted by localroger at 6:29 AM on April 17, 2011 [17 favorites]
Let me draw a parallel to something relatively uncontroversial: Roller coasters. Nothing offensive about them, but why do people ride? In some absolute sense there is no upside whatsoever to the experience of riding a roller coaster; in the really aggressive ones you are almost literally clamped in, there is real (if small) danger of serious injury as you experience forces powerful enough to kill you should any small thing go wrong, and once the ride starts there is no way out -- no kill switch, no safe word, only the certainty of several minutes of terrifying motion.
Yet people ride these things; I rode the one that circles the New York New York casino twice. It's not that the ride makes you feel good, or even as some would claim the relief of surviving the experience at the end, it's that it makes you feel different. In a culture where our feelings are so often carefully channeled, that has intrinsic value.
The world is full of popular things that are far more offensive than rap lyrics about rape. (SAW movies anyone?) But nobody is going to kill someone because they saw a SAW movie, and nobody is going to commit a rape because they listened to Odd Future; the people who actually do things like that are broken on a level that makes art irrelevant. I don't even think, as TFA finally suggests, that the usefulness of the art is to get those impulses out of our system; I think most of the people who ride roller coasters have no desire to die violently in a car crash any more than most viewers of SAW movies are inclined to commit a violent murder.
What I think is going on here is that we have a favorable instinct toward experiencing new things, even if those new things are somewhat unpleasant. I think the humor some people (TFA author included) claim to feel is a defense mechanism masking the more basic fact that it is interesting to find an unsuspected connection to something so different from ourselves as a murderer or rapist or the protagonist of Crash. If we are very lucky we might find that a great mystery, the why of such people who are not limited as we are by considerations of justice, punishment, or mercy, is not quite so mysterious. And our instinct is to favor learning things like that, even if we learn something about ourselves and our species that overall we'd rather not know.
posted by localroger at 6:29 AM on April 17, 2011 [17 favorites]
You know, I read all thirty-eight pages of that article looking for some tangible evidence that the author had ever even heard an Odd Future song, and I walked away disappointed.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 AM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 AM on April 17, 2011 [3 favorites]
In the front row at a holy Justin Bieber show
whoa there...
posted by R. Mutt at 6:50 AM on April 17, 2011
whoa there...
posted by R. Mutt at 6:50 AM on April 17, 2011
I was pursuing the pleasure of saying something I wasn’t supposed to. I liked doing what I knew was forbidden ...
The reason this art is juvenile is that as you get older, you come to understand that nothing is forbidden. There is no virtuous, or righteous authority over society. The established powers you wish believe that you're offending are far more wicked and transgressive than you could ever hope to be. You believe your art violates norms, but there are no norms to violate. Cruelty, ugliness, oppression, violence, aggression and exploitative sexuality are the default. Virtue, kindness, and modesty are shy, flickering things, rarely glimpsed. They dwell far outside the powerful forces you think you're offending. But they are the most likely collateral victims in your wars.
posted by Faze at 7:07 AM on April 17, 2011 [70 favorites]
The reason this art is juvenile is that as you get older, you come to understand that nothing is forbidden. There is no virtuous, or righteous authority over society. The established powers you wish believe that you're offending are far more wicked and transgressive than you could ever hope to be. You believe your art violates norms, but there are no norms to violate. Cruelty, ugliness, oppression, violence, aggression and exploitative sexuality are the default. Virtue, kindness, and modesty are shy, flickering things, rarely glimpsed. They dwell far outside the powerful forces you think you're offending. But they are the most likely collateral victims in your wars.
posted by Faze at 7:07 AM on April 17, 2011 [70 favorites]
For an article entitled "In Defense of Offensive Art", it sure doesn't seem to be all that interested in defending offensive art. It discusses that defense and then seems to discard it as unappealing. Or ... maybe it is appealing, by the end; I honestly can't tell what conclusion he means to draw. There's a lot of "they" and "we" and "I" getting thrown around but not a ton of consistency among them.
Also, here is a list of the little exclamations the author uses to tell us how we should have just reacted to whatever he just said, rather than making us actually react that way:
This is maybe the worst thing I have ever done!
This is uncomfortable!
That’s hilarious!
But God, it's exhausting!
That's shitty writing!
posted by penduluum at 7:18 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, here is a list of the little exclamations the author uses to tell us how we should have just reacted to whatever he just said, rather than making us actually react that way:
This is maybe the worst thing I have ever done!
This is uncomfortable!
That’s hilarious!
But God, it's exhausting!
That's shitty writing!
posted by penduluum at 7:18 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I like this interview with Tyler and he brings up some good points.
(Paraphrasing) "People say, 'All he talks about is rape.' Have you seen Quentin Tarantino's movies? Why does everybody get their dick cut off or some shit? How come no one says anything about that? It's fucking art. How come when a black kid says it, it's such a big deal? Really? Listen to the story. I'm not just talking about raping a bitch, it's a storyline. I'm writing this song from the mind of a serial killer from 30 years ago who's a white male. People make such a big deal out of that, when there's war going on that they don't want to say shit about."\
I think the difference between this and stuff that is too offensive for me to listen to is that there's an obvious intelligence and reflectiveness here that's missing in other rap that's all about mindlessly celebrating misogyny. And what excites me is the punk subversive energy and eagerness to explore the psyche that's missing from the status quo, unreflective, frankly boring reiteration of the "bitches ain't shit, suck my dick" mantra of all that other stuff.
posted by naju at 7:20 AM on April 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
(Paraphrasing) "People say, 'All he talks about is rape.' Have you seen Quentin Tarantino's movies? Why does everybody get their dick cut off or some shit? How come no one says anything about that? It's fucking art. How come when a black kid says it, it's such a big deal? Really? Listen to the story. I'm not just talking about raping a bitch, it's a storyline. I'm writing this song from the mind of a serial killer from 30 years ago who's a white male. People make such a big deal out of that, when there's war going on that they don't want to say shit about."\
I think the difference between this and stuff that is too offensive for me to listen to is that there's an obvious intelligence and reflectiveness here that's missing in other rap that's all about mindlessly celebrating misogyny. And what excites me is the punk subversive energy and eagerness to explore the psyche that's missing from the status quo, unreflective, frankly boring reiteration of the "bitches ain't shit, suck my dick" mantra of all that other stuff.
posted by naju at 7:20 AM on April 17, 2011 [10 favorites]
And at the same time, the 'conscious rap' game is incredibly stagnant and kind of lame as well, at least to my ears and to many others'. It used to be refreshing to hear people rap about being a good model citizen, and about how peace will heal the world, and about how you have to open your third eye. Now that kind of thing is a bit embarrassing to me and there's no fire to it, no conflict, no story. It's like the "christian rock" of rap. It's possible to be a good person but explore dark themes and write in the first person about deeply flawed people. This has been going on in literature forever, but when a black rapper does it, it's suddenly a problem because it's too immediate and scary for some people to deal with, I suppose.
posted by naju at 7:28 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 7:28 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Odd Future is rap's version of Megadeth and Suicidal Tendencies. They're far enough away from representing the streets that they can write shit from the kind of angle an 80's punk or speed metal band would. That's awesome because rap hasn't really had that, a lot of the other stuff is played out, and when culture actually evolves it's pretty cool. Once you get that, you can stop gibbering about what they mean and are they funny and are they offensive or not.
I love the Grindcore Uncertainty Principle, expressed in the comments on The Awl.
posted by furiousthought at 8:26 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I love the Grindcore Uncertainty Principle, expressed in the comments on The Awl.
posted by furiousthought at 8:26 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm with furiousthought -- if these guys are the punk/speed metal of their day, then they're the antidote to the horrible AOR period that rap has been in for a decade, and rap has so been in that period for a decade.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:38 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:38 AM on April 17, 2011
My two year old is the master of this. He says "mouse's bum has POO!" I dare any prankster or rapper to approach the radical simplicity of that.
posted by fleetmouse at 9:02 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by fleetmouse at 9:02 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
(oops, accidentally eponysterical - "mouse" is his current imaginary friend)
posted by fleetmouse at 9:04 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by fleetmouse at 9:04 AM on April 17, 2011 [2 favorites]
Actually, it's that the wordplay isn't at all simple is like 90% of why this stuff is getting all this attention, but don't let not knowing anything about what you're talking about stand in the way of saying something all witty and shit.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:19 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:19 AM on April 17, 2011
See also Skinhead by Patricia Smith. We read it in my poetry 100 course during a section about nasty art.
posted by yaymukund at 9:26 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by yaymukund at 9:26 AM on April 17, 2011
Man... this is weird. Whenever I see hype about OF, I'm happy and confused. These are kids that cruise up and down Fairfax on their skateboards, hang at Supreme and are just... insanely talented. Especially Tyler, but I think that his role is more of a leader rather than that of a frontman.
This is art; it's a show and he's a showman. After seeing these boys (and gal) rock their faces off more than a few times, I can say that the anger and energy is all on-point. Seeing their DJ Syd is great too, as she has this kind of riot grrl personality to her. People shouldn't forget that there *is* a female member in OF and that she's part of their makeup, too. That allows me to shrug off some of the lyrical content. The thing that allows me to let go of the lyrics almost entirely is that they're so wonderfully over-the-top and feel like the product of a very dark and hyperactive imagination.
posted by raihan_ at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
This is art; it's a show and he's a showman. After seeing these boys (and gal) rock their faces off more than a few times, I can say that the anger and energy is all on-point. Seeing their DJ Syd is great too, as she has this kind of riot grrl personality to her. People shouldn't forget that there *is* a female member in OF and that she's part of their makeup, too. That allows me to shrug off some of the lyrical content. The thing that allows me to let go of the lyrics almost entirely is that they're so wonderfully over-the-top and feel like the product of a very dark and hyperactive imagination.
posted by raihan_ at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2011 [6 favorites]
Rappers have used that "What about schwarzenegger?!!" thing since the 80's.
posted by cashman at 9:46 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by cashman at 9:46 AM on April 17, 2011
Love a bit of OF. Tyler, the Creator and Frank Ocean are the two best things to have come out of OF so far, but the sheer energy of what's going on is intoxicating. Fuck the actual content, embrace the style, wordplay, and most of all, energy of it all.
posted by flippant at 10:22 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by flippant at 10:22 AM on April 17, 2011
OK, that article did a good job of describing what's appealing about shouty offensive music.
I notice it mentioned something about some earlier critics who attacked this type of music on the basis that it encourages a type of social pressure (misogyny) that we don't want. Does it?
Off the top of my head, I would guess that it would depend on such things as the band's public image, the crowd they end up attracting (and then sustaining, if they keep performing), the advertising, and the methods of distribution (Wal-Mart privileges).
posted by LogicalDash at 10:22 AM on April 17, 2011
I notice it mentioned something about some earlier critics who attacked this type of music on the basis that it encourages a type of social pressure (misogyny) that we don't want. Does it?
Off the top of my head, I would guess that it would depend on such things as the band's public image, the crowd they end up attracting (and then sustaining, if they keep performing), the advertising, and the methods of distribution (Wal-Mart privileges).
posted by LogicalDash at 10:22 AM on April 17, 2011
It's not that the ride makes you feel good, or even as some would claim the relief of surviving the experience at the end, it's that it makes you feel different. In a culture where our feelings are so often carefully channeled, that has intrinsic value.
Exactly. This goes double when the ride is combined with ideas that really aren't on society's approved list (and yes, Faze, there are some... it's worth noting that the point of a great deal of offensive art is that "there are no norms to violate"). There's a reason why offensive art is embraced by its fans as "something serious and important and challenging", and it's not just because everyone failed their saving throw against ironic distance.
Besides, there's a third way (heh) between "endorsing the morally problematic views being expressed rather than just enjoying it on an artistic level" -- there's exploring how and why those views are morally problematic, or not, through the music. There's learning something about views you may not hold yourself, even (perhaps especially) if you find them offensive. Moral views are rarely one-dimensional things, problematic or not; treating them as if they are means missing out on learning "something about ourselves and our species that overall we'd rather not know", as localroger put it.
posted by vorfeed at 10:49 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Exactly. This goes double when the ride is combined with ideas that really aren't on society's approved list (and yes, Faze, there are some... it's worth noting that the point of a great deal of offensive art is that "there are no norms to violate"). There's a reason why offensive art is embraced by its fans as "something serious and important and challenging", and it's not just because everyone failed their saving throw against ironic distance.
Besides, there's a third way (heh) between "endorsing the morally problematic views being expressed rather than just enjoying it on an artistic level" -- there's exploring how and why those views are morally problematic, or not, through the music. There's learning something about views you may not hold yourself, even (perhaps especially) if you find them offensive. Moral views are rarely one-dimensional things, problematic or not; treating them as if they are means missing out on learning "something about ourselves and our species that overall we'd rather not know", as localroger put it.
posted by vorfeed at 10:49 AM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I kept trying to focus on the author's clearly jealous and back-handed compliments of OF and how "funny" they are, but got distracted by the memory of those low-income kids you find in every horror film in the Boston area that sit behind you in the theater and laugh as loud as they can during the scary scenes so they can show their Lady Gaga-haired tween girlfriends how manly they are for not being afraid. Usually they were trying to cover up the sound of a steady stream of terror-pee dripping out the bottom of their khaki shants.
posted by Mooseli at 11:24 AM on April 17, 2011
posted by Mooseli at 11:24 AM on April 17, 2011
TFA is seriously overthinking it. Let me draw a parallel to something relatively uncontroversial: Roller coasters. ...It's not that the ride makes you feel good, or even as some would claim the relief of surviving the experience at the end, it's that it makes you feel different.
Perhaps you may be overthinking it. People ride rollercoasters because they're FUN.
Specifically, they're fun because they take you close enough to something really dangerous to trigger primal horror (which is thrilling), in a context that's safe enough to sanely do as often as you like. Just like good transgressive music, comedy, film, etc.
posted by msalt at 11:54 AM on April 17, 2011
Perhaps you may be overthinking it. People ride rollercoasters because they're FUN.
Specifically, they're fun because they take you close enough to something really dangerous to trigger primal horror (which is thrilling), in a context that's safe enough to sanely do as often as you like. Just like good transgressive music, comedy, film, etc.
posted by msalt at 11:54 AM on April 17, 2011
Speaking of Odd Future, Complex found Earl, and pissed off Tyler in the process.
posted by djduckie at 12:06 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by djduckie at 12:06 PM on April 17, 2011
We don’t like art that challenges our values; we like art that we think challenges other people’s values.
I think this is generally true.
This reminds me - I was pawing around the interbutts earlier this morning, looking for reviews of bizarre, obscure movies. I found a great site with a great number of capsule reviews. The problem? So, so, so, so many of these bizarre, obscure movies are simply either torture porn or some variation thereof. There is almost no variety when it comes to horror films, especially on the microbudget level - so, so, so many films that are just about dismembering women's bodies and various stages of putrefaction.
It's all so lazy. What's the point of a 70-minute single-take horror movie if it's simply some story about a murderous redneck guy who murders people with his murderin' hands? These movies are all so obscure that they will never really find an audience to properly offend in any real sense. These movies just exist for a small subset of the moviegoing public - they like watching gore and seeing variations on this theme.
I'm not at all offended in any real sense; I just don't understand it. What would the movie be that would actually offend that audience, without just boring them or annoying them? Something that teased gore and then barely delivered on their terms? Something with the gender dynamic truly flipped? Something where a gorehound main character fails out of mortuary school because he can't deal with real bodies, so then he goes on a very remote, hermetically clean killing spree, where he refuses to allow himself to see any of his own handiwork, all the while watching Necrophagus on Blu-Ray and softly sobbing to himself?
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:14 PM on April 17, 2011
I think this is generally true.
This reminds me - I was pawing around the interbutts earlier this morning, looking for reviews of bizarre, obscure movies. I found a great site with a great number of capsule reviews. The problem? So, so, so, so many of these bizarre, obscure movies are simply either torture porn or some variation thereof. There is almost no variety when it comes to horror films, especially on the microbudget level - so, so, so many films that are just about dismembering women's bodies and various stages of putrefaction.
It's all so lazy. What's the point of a 70-minute single-take horror movie if it's simply some story about a murderous redneck guy who murders people with his murderin' hands? These movies are all so obscure that they will never really find an audience to properly offend in any real sense. These movies just exist for a small subset of the moviegoing public - they like watching gore and seeing variations on this theme.
I'm not at all offended in any real sense; I just don't understand it. What would the movie be that would actually offend that audience, without just boring them or annoying them? Something that teased gore and then barely delivered on their terms? Something with the gender dynamic truly flipped? Something where a gorehound main character fails out of mortuary school because he can't deal with real bodies, so then he goes on a very remote, hermetically clean killing spree, where he refuses to allow himself to see any of his own handiwork, all the while watching Necrophagus on Blu-Ray and softly sobbing to himself?
posted by Sticherbeast at 12:14 PM on April 17, 2011
msalt, I'd agree with you but say that the reason I used so many words in my first comment is that a lot of people don't understand why certain things are fun. Why is it fun to experience primal horror? It doesn't seem like the sort of experience we would normally seek out, even if we could do it safely. If the human emotional system were something designed by a competent programmer it's not the sort of response you'd expect.
posted by localroger at 12:41 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by localroger at 12:41 PM on April 17, 2011
I enjoyed Barthel's take on the subject and I've been thinking about it a lot lately, too.
My take away was that this art should be judged on aesthetic rather than moral qualities. He gives a lot of background to why he believes this, but it's interesting padding.
To respond to faze's statement that 'nothing is forbidden' I'd counter that plenty of things are forbidden and it's a strange topology of who it's forbidden to. Offensive art plays with the cognitive dissonance of 'it's not right' vs 'it's happening.'
For some it's the thrill of knowing you're freaking people out or making changes in the game. For others it's being freaked out and making changes at the time. For still others it's what they happen to be doing and why the hell is everyone so freaked out? There's a lot of directions for this type of work to manifest from and none of it can be discounted offhand.
posted by artof.mulata at 1:58 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
My take away was that this art should be judged on aesthetic rather than moral qualities. He gives a lot of background to why he believes this, but it's interesting padding.
To respond to faze's statement that 'nothing is forbidden' I'd counter that plenty of things are forbidden and it's a strange topology of who it's forbidden to. Offensive art plays with the cognitive dissonance of 'it's not right' vs 'it's happening.'
For some it's the thrill of knowing you're freaking people out or making changes in the game. For others it's being freaked out and making changes at the time. For still others it's what they happen to be doing and why the hell is everyone so freaked out? There's a lot of directions for this type of work to manifest from and none of it can be discounted offhand.
posted by artof.mulata at 1:58 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
What would the movie be that would actually offend that audience, without just boring them or annoying them?
That would be A Serbian Film. A lot of reviewers and critics whose regular fare is transgressive and disturbing movies opined that this actually did cross a line and offend them. Even the sometimes pretty OTT fake snuff films of August Underground didn't cause as much consternation among horror heads.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:03 PM on April 17, 2011
That would be A Serbian Film. A lot of reviewers and critics whose regular fare is transgressive and disturbing movies opined that this actually did cross a line and offend them. Even the sometimes pretty OTT fake snuff films of August Underground didn't cause as much consternation among horror heads.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:03 PM on April 17, 2011
I saw some pans for A Serbian Film, but my impression from the reviews I had read was that people generally liked it, or at least respected it. Too many of the reviews kept referring to it as being "controversial" for my taste - where was the controversy? I mean, there would be controversy if some of the more transgressive material had shown up as the climax to, say, Failure to Launch, but once you're inside the idiom of the extreme film - especially the extreme film that is, to most of its audience, foreign - and especially an extreme film with some degree of production quality and being About Something - then almost nothing is really going to be shocking. Even something that is more shocking than usual is just going to be seen as going upwards from a predictable, linear trajectory - I mean, of course these kinds of movies are going to go more and more extreme, going to break more and more taboos. That's to be expected.
I guess what I'm looking for is a movie pitched to gorehounds and other horror fans where the reaction is one of genuine bemusement and/or befuddlement. A tearjerker torture porn, or a commedia dell'arte torture porn, or the torture porn version of weirdly sincere religious parable à la The Man Who Was Thursday, or something like that.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:25 PM on April 17, 2011
I guess what I'm looking for is a movie pitched to gorehounds and other horror fans where the reaction is one of genuine bemusement and/or befuddlement. A tearjerker torture porn, or a commedia dell'arte torture porn, or the torture porn version of weirdly sincere religious parable à la The Man Who Was Thursday, or something like that.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:25 PM on April 17, 2011
Why are Odd Future playing the Sydney Opera House (Because Steve Pav is cheating a festival there)? I haven't heard them - I file them under 'that stuff the kids are into' - but the Opera House?
When I watch horror I like how the intensity matches how I feel half the time.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:43 PM on April 17, 2011
When I watch horror I like how the intensity matches how I feel half the time.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:43 PM on April 17, 2011
I never wind up thinking this deeply about the lyrics of the stuff I listen to. But I like this quote from Ann Powers:
"Not all art that claims to be transgressive is worth caring about. But you can't tell the bullshit from the real by setting moral standards. You have to set artistic ones."
That, combined with the Grindcore Uncertainty Principle, allows me to enjoy the shit out of things like Pig Destroyer and Agoraphobic Nosebleed without having to worry about justifying it to myself or others. The MUSIC is what makes it amazing; judging it purely from an artistic standpoint and not worrying about how disturbing the lyrics would be if taken to action. It's clear that ANb are taking the piss, and I'm pretty sure that J R Hayes is not a mass murderer. Rap puts delivery of lyrics at the forefront, rather than guitars and drums, and puts the offensiveness right in your face.
I'd probably draw the line at having feces thrown at me, or risking contracting impetigo from animal carcasses at a Watain show.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:51 PM on April 17, 2011
"Not all art that claims to be transgressive is worth caring about. But you can't tell the bullshit from the real by setting moral standards. You have to set artistic ones."
That, combined with the Grindcore Uncertainty Principle, allows me to enjoy the shit out of things like Pig Destroyer and Agoraphobic Nosebleed without having to worry about justifying it to myself or others. The MUSIC is what makes it amazing; judging it purely from an artistic standpoint and not worrying about how disturbing the lyrics would be if taken to action. It's clear that ANb are taking the piss, and I'm pretty sure that J R Hayes is not a mass murderer. Rap puts delivery of lyrics at the forefront, rather than guitars and drums, and puts the offensiveness right in your face.
I'd probably draw the line at having feces thrown at me, or risking contracting impetigo from animal carcasses at a Watain show.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:51 PM on April 17, 2011
A tearjerker torture porn, or a commedia dell'arte torture porn, or the torture porn version of weirdly sincere religious parable à la The Man Who Was Thursday, or something like that.
Nekromantik 2.
posted by stinkycheese at 4:03 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nekromantik 2.
posted by stinkycheese at 4:03 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Playing devil's advocate here...
Every single time I've read discussion/condemnation of OFWGKTA, someone inevitably points out that there's a woman in their crew. This (to me) reads as a way of excusing the extreme misogyny/LOLRAPE -- "hey, there's a girl up there who doesn't seem to mind that all the guys up there are pretty excited about sexual assault." (Exaggerating here.)
I really don't think that exploring misogyny works well within the confines of a three-minute single. An exploration of how hatred of women is perpetuated, who stands to benefit, and how everyone involved is damaged by it is better served in a long-form work of art, such as a novel or a movie, where there's a greater context and more room in which to look at all the different facets of an issue. The structure of an album or even the isolation of a YouTube embed or an MP3 takes a lyric out of a wider context and makes it easier for the message to be reduced to "Bitches and cunts, amirite?" (And, yes, I know one could counter this by pointing out how making a single or something without the sense of context [and I wish I had a better phrase for this] puts greater onus on the listener, and at this point I'd be getting all Harold Bloom here.)
As a sidenote, I tend to avoid listening to most rap because as a listener I feel excluded from the rape fantasies that tend to surface in the more popular songs (thinking specifically of both OFWGKTA and "Bonnie and Clyde '97" by Eminem, for two of the more obvious examples). There's not much in the rap that makes it to my corner of white suburbia that doesn't traffic in these kinds of "transgressions", and I don't hear many artists who are grappling with the issue of how to be a man without bashing gays and (at best) calling women offensive names. On the other hand, I'm sitting here listening to Propaganda by Sparks, an album whose lyrical content is about (to be polite) a certain ambivalence towards women, by a band who themselves had quite a few sexist songs. I don't necessarily think the issue is racial or class-related, or "rock-ist" (though a pair of white guys playing something close to traditional rock and roll, dressed like fops, and wrote lyrics with a handful of ten-cent words would certainly play into all three of those things). But the fact that I just pointed out how exclusionary mainstream rap music can be while listening to "Something For the Girl with Everything" certainly gives me pause.
(Also, I have listened to OFWGKTA -- my boyfriend is a prison librarian and had to screen the album before he could decide whether to add it to the listening stations.)
There's no thesis to what I've written here, and this isn't a grand statement, but a lot of disjointed observations.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
Every single time I've read discussion/condemnation of OFWGKTA, someone inevitably points out that there's a woman in their crew. This (to me) reads as a way of excusing the extreme misogyny/LOLRAPE -- "hey, there's a girl up there who doesn't seem to mind that all the guys up there are pretty excited about sexual assault." (Exaggerating here.)
I really don't think that exploring misogyny works well within the confines of a three-minute single. An exploration of how hatred of women is perpetuated, who stands to benefit, and how everyone involved is damaged by it is better served in a long-form work of art, such as a novel or a movie, where there's a greater context and more room in which to look at all the different facets of an issue. The structure of an album or even the isolation of a YouTube embed or an MP3 takes a lyric out of a wider context and makes it easier for the message to be reduced to "Bitches and cunts, amirite?" (And, yes, I know one could counter this by pointing out how making a single or something without the sense of context [and I wish I had a better phrase for this] puts greater onus on the listener, and at this point I'd be getting all Harold Bloom here.)
As a sidenote, I tend to avoid listening to most rap because as a listener I feel excluded from the rape fantasies that tend to surface in the more popular songs (thinking specifically of both OFWGKTA and "Bonnie and Clyde '97" by Eminem, for two of the more obvious examples). There's not much in the rap that makes it to my corner of white suburbia that doesn't traffic in these kinds of "transgressions", and I don't hear many artists who are grappling with the issue of how to be a man without bashing gays and (at best) calling women offensive names. On the other hand, I'm sitting here listening to Propaganda by Sparks, an album whose lyrical content is about (to be polite) a certain ambivalence towards women, by a band who themselves had quite a few sexist songs. I don't necessarily think the issue is racial or class-related, or "rock-ist" (though a pair of white guys playing something close to traditional rock and roll, dressed like fops, and wrote lyrics with a handful of ten-cent words would certainly play into all three of those things). But the fact that I just pointed out how exclusionary mainstream rap music can be while listening to "Something For the Girl with Everything" certainly gives me pause.
(Also, I have listened to OFWGKTA -- my boyfriend is a prison librarian and had to screen the album before he could decide whether to add it to the listening stations.)
There's no thesis to what I've written here, and this isn't a grand statement, but a lot of disjointed observations.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:07 PM on April 17, 2011 [1 favorite]
I should probably mention that though I don't listen to much rap Nick Cave, old blues, The Rolling Stones and The Decemberists all have their share of rape fantasies, violence against women, and the like. So i'm not claiming I'm better than Odd Future fans.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:17 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 6:17 PM on April 17, 2011
w/r/t the Rolling Stones you're probably thinking of Under My Thumb. I wouldn't consider that a rape fantasy, particularly when compared to the rape fantasies that rap artists have aired. I'd consider UMT more of an ode to female masochism, which can be a nifty phenomenon if you're a male with power issues. The subtext of UMT isn't that the girl is captured or subdued but that she submits willingly. This suggests not so much violence as seduction, with an understanding of the kinkiness within.
posted by localroger at 7:02 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by localroger at 7:02 PM on April 17, 2011
@pxe2000: I guess I'm that guy, then! :) I don't think that Syd's mere presence is enough to excuse the lyrical content. My point from earlier about this just being art/music will still hold though. If a kid is impressionable enough to obsessively act-out OF's lyrics, they're in for a huge shock themselves!
I do wholeheartedly agree with you that a three-minute single by itself is generally a horrible vessel for any sort of lasting thought/principle/philosophy/etc. But the amount of plays adds up and the song ends up sticking. That's the killer.
To add a rebuttal about a rapper talking about "how to be a man without bashing gays"... Kanye West addressed a crowd at Madison Square Garden about that nearly three years ago. I don't really think the sentiment has carried over to the rap masses, but ... hey, it's out there.
posted by raihan_ at 9:45 PM on April 17, 2011
I do wholeheartedly agree with you that a three-minute single by itself is generally a horrible vessel for any sort of lasting thought/principle/philosophy/etc. But the amount of plays adds up and the song ends up sticking. That's the killer.
To add a rebuttal about a rapper talking about "how to be a man without bashing gays"... Kanye West addressed a crowd at Madison Square Garden about that nearly three years ago. I don't really think the sentiment has carried over to the rap masses, but ... hey, it's out there.
posted by raihan_ at 9:45 PM on April 17, 2011
w/r/t the Rolling Stones you're probably thinking of Under My Thumb. I wouldn't consider that a rape fantasy, particularly when compared to the rape fantasies that rap artists have aired. I'd consider UMT more of an ode to female masochism, which can be a nifty phenomenon if you're a male with power issues. The subtext of UMT isn't that the girl is captured or subdued but that she submits willingly. This suggests not so much violence as seduction, with an understanding of the kinkiness within.
I was also thinking of the slavery in Brown Sugar and using them as a stand in for all the rest of the misogyny that I'm sure exists in my record collection.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 9:50 PM on April 17, 2011
I'm still surprised there isn''t more outrage about Odd Future playing at the Sydney Opera House.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:00 PM on April 17, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 10:00 PM on April 17, 2011
Ah, Yeezy. He's been throwing the "no homo" around a bit, which complicates his previous goodwill towards gays.
raihan_, do you also attend concerts dressed in the tee shirts of the band you're going to see? :P
posted by pxe2000 at 4:41 AM on April 18, 2011
raihan_, do you also attend concerts dressed in the tee shirts of the band you're going to see? :P
posted by pxe2000 at 4:41 AM on April 18, 2011
LIB: I think with Brown Sugar you have something really different going on; there the Stones are going on about slavery but linking it to rape, since total power leads to that, and it's a powerful argument about what real slavery means. But in UMT I think they are in a more playful mode, throwing the fact that some people like this shit in the audience's face just for the hell of it. I don't think anybody would look at the lyrics to UMT and feel a need to liberate anybody. (Unless they were like total dorks.)
posted by localroger at 4:44 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by localroger at 4:44 PM on April 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't like offensive music when it's done by people I consider to be stupider then me. OF are smarter than I am, so I accept it. I assume they know what they're doing. Tyler the Creator is a genius, it's shocking that he's so young. I also first found out about them because they were the skate kids outside Supreme... to find out that they were so insanely talented... was hard to believe at first to be honest.
posted by cell divide at 6:26 PM on April 18, 2011
posted by cell divide at 6:26 PM on April 18, 2011
>Rolling Stones
WADR to Brown Sugar, I think we're talking about Midnight Rambler here. Not really that subtle, and with bonus racism!
Well you heard about the Boston…[Strangler]
Honey, it’s not one of those…
Talkin’ bout the midnight…[Rambler]…
Did ya see me jump the bedroom door?
I'm called the hit-n-run rape her, in anger.
Or just a knife-sharpened tippie-toe…
So if you ever meet the Midnight Rambler
Coming down your marble hall
And he’s pouncing like a proud black panther,
Well you can say, I told your so...
Well I’m a talkin’ bout the midnight rambler
Did you see me jump your garden wall
And If you ever catch the midnight rambler
Steal your mistress from under your nose
Go easy with your cold-fanged anger
I’ll stick my knife right down your throat, baby (and it hurts)
posted by msalt at 12:41 PM on April 19, 2011
WADR to Brown Sugar, I think we're talking about Midnight Rambler here. Not really that subtle, and with bonus racism!
Well you heard about the Boston…[Strangler]
Honey, it’s not one of those…
Talkin’ bout the midnight…[Rambler]…
Did ya see me jump the bedroom door?
I'm called the hit-n-run rape her, in anger.
Or just a knife-sharpened tippie-toe…
So if you ever meet the Midnight Rambler
Coming down your marble hall
And he’s pouncing like a proud black panther,
Well you can say, I told your so...
Well I’m a talkin’ bout the midnight rambler
Did you see me jump your garden wall
And If you ever catch the midnight rambler
Steal your mistress from under your nose
Go easy with your cold-fanged anger
I’ll stick my knife right down your throat, baby (and it hurts)
posted by msalt at 12:41 PM on April 19, 2011
Have you seen Quentin Tarantino's movies? Why does everybody get their dick cut off or some shit?
Huh. I have. They don't. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of a one.
How come when a black kid says it, it's such a big deal?
It seems like the biggest "controversial" misogynist rap lyricist of the past decade has been Eminem.
There's not much in the rap that makes it to my corner of white suburbia that doesn't traffic in these kinds of "transgressions",
That's unfortunately true. There's a lot of interesting, independent rap/hip-hop out there, but it takes truly inventive wordplay like "i'll stuff you in the trunk drunk because all i want to do is fuck and snort blow" to get some attention.
I think a lot of people like transgressive lyrics because they like to vicariously experience transgressive behavior. I'm not sure if that's "good" or "bad." Likely neither.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:29 AM on April 21, 2011
Huh. I have. They don't. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of a one.
How come when a black kid says it, it's such a big deal?
It seems like the biggest "controversial" misogynist rap lyricist of the past decade has been Eminem.
There's not much in the rap that makes it to my corner of white suburbia that doesn't traffic in these kinds of "transgressions",
That's unfortunately true. There's a lot of interesting, independent rap/hip-hop out there, but it takes truly inventive wordplay like "i'll stuff you in the trunk drunk because all i want to do is fuck and snort blow" to get some attention.
I think a lot of people like transgressive lyrics because they like to vicariously experience transgressive behavior. I'm not sure if that's "good" or "bad." Likely neither.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:29 AM on April 21, 2011
Tyler, the Creator: Visionary Rapper or Obnoxious Teenager?
tl;dr: "He's like a crap French intellectual."
listening to Goblin now...
posted by mrgrimm at 2:18 PM on May 11, 2011
tl;dr: "He's like a crap French intellectual."
listening to Goblin now...
posted by mrgrimm at 2:18 PM on May 11, 2011
Tarantino's dick drips off in Planet Terror FWIW.
posted by stinkycheese at 6:25 PM on May 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by stinkycheese at 6:25 PM on May 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Tegan and Sara write a scathing open letter calling Odd Future on their homophobia and misogyny. Tyler gives a short, subhuman response.
This shtick is getting really tiresome. None of the many "thought pieces" on OF I've read have really made a case for how this is any more intelligent than the lyrics of Eminem or ICP. "Hipster Juggalo" seems about right...
posted by naju at 9:25 AM on May 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
This shtick is getting really tiresome. None of the many "thought pieces" on OF I've read have really made a case for how this is any more intelligent than the lyrics of Eminem or ICP. "Hipster Juggalo" seems about right...
posted by naju at 9:25 AM on May 16, 2011 [1 favorite]
(And I realize I was passionately defending OF earlier in the thread, but a few listens to Goblin mostly just have me rolling my eyes and saying "That's it? This is our so-called visionary?")
posted by naju at 9:27 AM on May 16, 2011
posted by naju at 9:27 AM on May 16, 2011
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This is the crux of it, for me. I want to find some moral loophole to help get rid of the cognitive dissonance I experience when I find myself enjoying parts of a track like DOOM's Batty Boyz, while knowing the lyrics are, at best, tediously juvenile, at worst, repugnantly homophobic. I think, in the end, it spoiled the listening experience for me. The final test was, could I appreciate a track for the production and rhymes if it was full of aggressive neo-Nazi sentiments? The answer, obviously, was no. I'd be disgusted with myself for listening to it.
The same applies here, in the end. Even though I want to be down with the kids, and I get that a lot of it is done purely for shock value in a kind of swaggering adolescent way, I don't want to be part of an enabling culture that tacitly endorses hate speech.
tl;dr - I'm not offended, just disappointed.
posted by RokkitNite at 5:28 AM on April 17, 2011 [5 favorites]