Ex post facto abortion?!
April 30, 2011 9:27 PM Subscribe
Word of the day: filicide? (The deliberate murder of a son or daughter by a parent.) The Libyan government-controlled media has reported that a NATO airstrike on a government complex killed Saif al-Arab al-Gaddafi, while Muammar Gaddafi and his wife escaped. NATO denies attempting to target Gaddafi, though they claim they did attack a command-and-control complex. Which begs the question: Why was the father taking shelter with a son who was recently reported as having defected -- with elements of his military escort -- to the rebel side? Is this, essentially, another act of Libyan propaganda, such as when his "daughter" was killed?
This post was deleted for the following reason: "I'm highlighting an obvious discrepency" + filicide? stuff is an oddly aggressively editorial approach to a metafilter post vs. a personal blog post. If this merits an FPP there's got to be a better way to frame it. -- cortex
Tarnishing the reputation of our former ally to justify the piles of bodies we are creating? It all seems so familiar...
posted by notion at 9:44 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by notion at 9:44 PM on April 30, 2011
Haven't RTFA'd but gotta say the cable news style of the post is a bit off-putting. Mainly the question marks - "FPP gearing up for flame war?"
posted by hypersloth at 9:52 PM on April 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hypersloth at 9:52 PM on April 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, given that Cliff Kincaid directly quotes reporter Barbara Slavin, perhaps you should ask her whether she was accurate about Hannah Gaddafi being posthumously adopted? Her recent articles are in Foriegn Policy Magazine, which has a web presence. I'm sure they'd be willing to assist you.
posted by markkraft at 9:59 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by markkraft at 9:59 PM on April 30, 2011
Or maybe shit is that bad.
posted by hypersloth at 9:59 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by hypersloth at 9:59 PM on April 30, 2011
It is not possible to tarnish Gaddafi's reputation. That would be like trying to paint coal black.
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on April 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on April 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Tarnishing the reputation of our former ally to justify the piles of bodies we are creating? It all seems so familiar..."
Actually, I don't see the US govt. tarnishing the reputation of Gaddafi here. I put the pieces together, because I wanted to find out who Saif al-Arab al-Gaddafi actually was.
Turns out that he's the least known of the sons... but it does seem very odd indeed that someone who is reported by two news sources -- one of them being IRNA, which is run out of Iran -- as joining the rebels would be spending quality time with his dad.
Something simply doesn't make sense... and, frankly, the Iranian government's news agency isn't in the business of doing the US govt. any favors... so I assume that there was an actual newsy basis for their original claim.
posted by markkraft at 10:08 PM on April 30, 2011
Actually, I don't see the US govt. tarnishing the reputation of Gaddafi here. I put the pieces together, because I wanted to find out who Saif al-Arab al-Gaddafi actually was.
Turns out that he's the least known of the sons... but it does seem very odd indeed that someone who is reported by two news sources -- one of them being IRNA, which is run out of Iran -- as joining the rebels would be spending quality time with his dad.
Something simply doesn't make sense... and, frankly, the Iranian government's news agency isn't in the business of doing the US govt. any favors... so I assume that there was an actual newsy basis for their original claim.
posted by markkraft at 10:08 PM on April 30, 2011
Word of the day: filicide? (The deliberate murder of a son or daughter by a parent.)
Yeah, markkraft, it really sounds like you're just looking for information.
posted by fredludd at 10:11 PM on April 30, 2011
Yeah, markkraft, it really sounds like you're just looking for information.
posted by fredludd at 10:11 PM on April 30, 2011
Nato has confirmed the air strike, without denying or confirming the reported deaths.
markkraft, who is the other primary news source for the claim that Saif had defected? I can only find the Iranian government-controlled IRNA as a source.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:17 PM on April 30, 2011
markkraft, who is the other primary news source for the claim that Saif had defected? I can only find the Iranian government-controlled IRNA as a source.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:17 PM on April 30, 2011
Gaddafi was never an ally of the US. He cut a deal to get rid of his WMD programs and stop support of terrorism, and the US normalized relations. The US never considered him an ally or had any kind of significant military arrangement or financial support (a million dollars -- pocket change for the US and far less than any other country in Africa).
posted by empath at 10:18 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by empath at 10:18 PM on April 30, 2011
Note that Saif al-Arab is not Saif al-Islam, the high-profile Gaddafi son that was the public face of the regime earlier in the conflict.
Also, I heard Gaddafi's grandchildren were killed, too -- what's the story on that? I hope they're nominal adults and fighters we're talking about and not children -- I'm still bothered by that CNN segment (@6:47 here) showing a Taliban leader playing happily with his small son and daughter only to reveal that they were both later killed in an airstrike. No kid deserves that, no matter who their family is.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:23 PM on April 30, 2011
Also, I heard Gaddafi's grandchildren were killed, too -- what's the story on that? I hope they're nominal adults and fighters we're talking about and not children -- I'm still bothered by that CNN segment (@6:47 here) showing a Taliban leader playing happily with his small son and daughter only to reveal that they were both later killed in an airstrike. No kid deserves that, no matter who their family is.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:23 PM on April 30, 2011
"who is the other primary news source for the claim that Saif had defected? I can only find the Iranian government-controlled IRNA as a source."
It was also reported by Al Hurra, which is run by the US government. Basically, both IRNA/PressTV and Al Hurra have potential conflicts of interest -- which, frankly, is something you can say about Al Jazeera as well, and just about every other media source in the Middle East -- but this story was something they agreed upon.
posted by markkraft at 10:30 PM on April 30, 2011
It was also reported by Al Hurra, which is run by the US government. Basically, both IRNA/PressTV and Al Hurra have potential conflicts of interest -- which, frankly, is something you can say about Al Jazeera as well, and just about every other media source in the Middle East -- but this story was something they agreed upon.
posted by markkraft at 10:30 PM on April 30, 2011
Taliban leader playing happily with his small son and daughter only to reveal that they were both later killed in an airstrike.
If your job is war fighting you probably shouldn't bring your kids to work.
posted by dibblda at 10:34 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
If your job is war fighting you probably shouldn't bring your kids to work.
posted by dibblda at 10:34 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
"it really sounds like you're just looking for information"
I'm highlighting an obvious discrepency. Something doesn't make sense.
Really, though, I don't think that NATO, with all of its member states, some with very progressive politics, would intentionally try to target Gaddafi, in violation of international law.
I have reviewed reports of NATO sorties previously... they flew something like about 250 in one day a week or so ago, but only about a dozen resulted in actual ordinance being dropped. That, to me, suggests an attempt to put a tight rein on targets, which must meet certain criteria put forward by its member states. (To me, the airstrikes that are more troubling are the ones that don't go through NATO command, but are done by member states... though I am unsure how much of this there is anymore. I know the US are only supposed to be involved with units under NATO command, unless specifically asked by NATO for help, for example.)
It was only four days ago when Gaddafi claimed that he was almost bombed, while the NATO commander, Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, said he doubted Gadhafi was in the building in question.
Basically, either NATO is *really* good at knowing where Gaddafi is, and is intentionally hunting him, in a way that would have member countries like Norway, Iceland, and Spain pounding the tables, or there's a very active propaganda war going on here.
posted by markkraft at 11:00 PM on April 30, 2011
I'm highlighting an obvious discrepency. Something doesn't make sense.
Really, though, I don't think that NATO, with all of its member states, some with very progressive politics, would intentionally try to target Gaddafi, in violation of international law.
I have reviewed reports of NATO sorties previously... they flew something like about 250 in one day a week or so ago, but only about a dozen resulted in actual ordinance being dropped. That, to me, suggests an attempt to put a tight rein on targets, which must meet certain criteria put forward by its member states. (To me, the airstrikes that are more troubling are the ones that don't go through NATO command, but are done by member states... though I am unsure how much of this there is anymore. I know the US are only supposed to be involved with units under NATO command, unless specifically asked by NATO for help, for example.)
It was only four days ago when Gaddafi claimed that he was almost bombed, while the NATO commander, Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, said he doubted Gadhafi was in the building in question.
Basically, either NATO is *really* good at knowing where Gaddafi is, and is intentionally hunting him, in a way that would have member countries like Norway, Iceland, and Spain pounding the tables, or there's a very active propaganda war going on here.
posted by markkraft at 11:00 PM on April 30, 2011
Let's hope we get the bastard next time.
posted by joannemullen at 11:17 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by joannemullen at 11:17 PM on April 30, 2011
Hey we killed Uday and Qusay first too!
posted by AndrewKemendo at 11:22 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by AndrewKemendo at 11:22 PM on April 30, 2011
Clearly, markkraft, international law is written by American military practice these days.
But opening your post with a remark about "filicide" suggested to me that you suspected Gaddhafi had taken the opportunity provided by this conflict to chastise a wayward child, in Biblical fashion.
posted by fredludd at 11:26 PM on April 30, 2011
But opening your post with a remark about "filicide" suggested to me that you suspected Gaddhafi had taken the opportunity provided by this conflict to chastise a wayward child, in Biblical fashion.
posted by fredludd at 11:26 PM on April 30, 2011
Not in that YouTube clip, floam, but at the end of the full-length TV documentary.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:28 PM on April 30, 2011
posted by Rhaomi at 11:28 PM on April 30, 2011
or there's a very active propaganda war going on here.
Here, there, everywhere. It's the Reagan 80s all over again - only this time French airspace is open to the terrorists with airplanes.
posted by three blind mice at 11:31 PM on April 30, 2011
Here, there, everywhere. It's the Reagan 80s all over again - only this time French airspace is open to the terrorists with airplanes.
posted by three blind mice at 11:31 PM on April 30, 2011
Really, though, I don't think that NATO, with all of its member states, some with very progressive politics, would intentionally try to target Gaddafi, in violation of international law.
Seriously?
posted by empath at 11:36 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Seriously?
posted by empath at 11:36 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Swedish morning papers say NATO confirms the attack.
Three children are also confirmed killed.
No news if any brave NATO forces injured or even inconvenienced in what appears to be a clear attempt at assassination contrary to the UN mandate and the plain assurances of Obama.
Ghadaffi has already won. Now he beats the point spread.
posted by three blind mice at 11:56 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Three children are also confirmed killed.
No news if any brave NATO forces injured or even inconvenienced in what appears to be a clear attempt at assassination contrary to the UN mandate and the plain assurances of Obama.
Ghadaffi has already won. Now he beats the point spread.
posted by three blind mice at 11:56 PM on April 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
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