Previously, on Mad Men
June 6, 2013 9:56 AM Subscribe

There are only three more episodes in the penultimate season of Mad Men. Let's look back on what we've seen so far. posted by donajo (2243 comments total) 69 users marked this as a favorite

This is the second-to-last season?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:59 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yep!
posted by The Whelk at 9:59 AM on June 6, 2013

It is. I checked. </penultimate police>
posted by mazola at 10:00 AM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

*Sob.*
posted by mynameisluka at 10:00 AM on June 6, 2013

Don is a dead man in 3 episodes, calling it now
posted by smackwich at 10:02 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Roger Sterling gets punched in the balls.

This is where I reached peak Mad Men. It was beautiful.
posted by Big_B at 10:03 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Last episode is Don eating onion rings with his family and a smash to black.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:03 AM on June 6, 2013 [13 favorites]

Coming up on the antepenultimate episode of the penultimate season: Pete's auntie offers SC&P the ultimate pen account, but will the relationship with Bic stick?
posted by psoas at 10:05 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Abe got stabbed and Don, Betty, and Bobby sing "Father Abraham" (with the right!).

When that happened I said out loud to my wife 'If the next twenty minutes of this episode is just these three doing this song I will be okay with that.'
posted by shakespeherian at 10:06 AM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

Last season is Don and Peggy solving crimes.

Shh it is
posted by sweetkid at 10:06 AM on June 6, 2013 [25 favorites]

Sixteen episodes remain in all of Mad Men.

1. They won't kill Don, Six Feet Under did that.

2. They won't repeat the exact ending of The Sopranos. Though I do think the show will go out with a whimper. Definitely Weiner's style.

3. I don't think they'll do a left-turn final season like Roseanne winning the lottery or Angel & Co. taking over Wolfram & Hart. Those mostly happen when they wrap the show up because they anticipate cancellation, but then SURPRISE RENEWAL. Which isn't the situation with Mad Men.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Tony Soprano's father and Uncle Junior kneecap Don while Tony waits in the car and listens to the radio
posted by briank at 10:08 AM on June 6, 2013 [9 favorites]

So it's crimes then.
posted by sweetkid at 10:09 AM on June 6, 2013

The last season takes place in the Amber universe where Glenn and Betty team up against Walternate at Kenny Cosgrove's Carnival. Every episode features Pete Campbell falling down the stairs.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:09 AM on June 6, 2013 [15 favorites]

Sara C., can you tell us the odds on George Hearst having the SC&P office burnt to the ground?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:09 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

I have horrible associations with the song "Father Abraham", could barely stomach that scene, and cannot watch any youtube supercut video that even remotely implies that any part of that scene could be in there at all.

This is why you should never pawn your kids off on the bigger, fancier all-summer-long Vacation Bible School that the local megachurch does in lieu of childcare during the summer.
posted by Sara C. at 10:09 AM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

I've predicted it before but there is only one possible ending for Don. Miami Vice Houseboat in Florida. Coke spoon in the chest hair. Ugly tan. Black teeth. Hacking his lungs out writing a novel and throwing chunks of it into the sea every night.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:11 AM on June 6, 2013 [26 favorites]

Tony Soprano's father and Uncle Junior kneecap Don while Tony waits in the car and listens to the radio

I've been hoping for sly references to the Soprano crime family for the whole show. I mean, I'd take a background radio broadcast that says "Giovanni Francis "Johnny Boy" Soprano was arrested today on racketeering charges following a raid of the Newark Longshoreman's Union headquarters..." or the like.
posted by Sara C. at 10:11 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Don and Joan are visited by Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock and are drafted to replace Gary Seven and Terri Garr, who were killed by government alien hunters shortly after that one episode.
posted by briank at 10:12 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

It was all implanted into Dick Whitman's mind by Communist agents after Dick was captured in Korea.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:13 AM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

odds on George Hearst having the SC&P office burnt to the ground?

I wonder what the odds are that Patty Hearst will?

(Just kidding, I think the Hearst kidnapping all happened in like '73, and I don't think the Symbionese Liberation Army ever got out of California.)
posted by Sara C. at 10:13 AM on June 6, 2013

There was a sly reference to 30 Rock in one episode this season (the one where Ted Chaough orders an Old Spanish). Perhaps the ending will be 200 years in the future with an immortal Bob Benson running SC&P and pondering a new ad campaign based on the lives of the famed "Mad Men" of the 1960s.
posted by Cash4Lead at 10:16 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Why Hearst...?
posted by sweetkid at 10:17 AM on June 6, 2013

The more I see of Bob Benson the more I'm convinced he's twelve hundred locusts in a human suit.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:17 AM on June 6, 2013 [35 favorites]

CONSPIRUCY
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:17 AM on June 6, 2013

Last season is Don and Peggy solving crimes.

Shh it is

What? Of course not. That's just absurd.

The last season is Peggy and Sally solving crimes.

Kristen Bell has a cameo in the pilot.
posted by Tomorrowful at 10:18 AM on June 6, 2013 [17 favorites]

What if Bob Benson is that bear everyone over at Uproxx keeps talking about?
posted by Sara C. at 10:18 AM on June 6, 2013

I think there's plenty of violence to go around and take out Megan of the Tall Teeth.

There's always the Weather Underground in 1970, though, blowing up that place in Greenwich, right? Maybe they're Peggy's renter upstairs and Megan happens to be visiting ....

I'm thinking that Bob and Peggy and Joan will start their own company, looping in Harry for the LA coverage. Joan and Bob marry, kind of a bearding situation (since they're working so hard to paint him as undercover aware gay).

And Ted gets Don and that other guy up in a plane and crashes it, possibly unintentionally.
posted by tilde at 10:19 AM on June 6, 2013

I'm ready for that show to come to an end. Jeez it's getting terrible.
posted by Keith Talent at 10:19 AM on June 6, 2013

That squishy popping sound you just heard was my liver exploding after watching the first video.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:20 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

In the last episode, Pete finally takes out that hunting rifle from the first season and tries to go postal on everyone, but

A) he realizes he has no ammo and his secretary has no idea where to buy ammo in Manhattan at 3pm on the Friday before Labor Day Weekend,

B) he realizes he has no idea how to shoot a gun,

and/or

C) the thing doesn't even work considering it's been moldering in a series of offices for the last decade.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on June 6, 2013 [9 favorites]

Fuck, now "Father Abraham" is on repeat in my head.
posted by mynameisluka at 10:20 AM on June 6, 2013

I don't get the hate for Bob Benson, he's just bland, that's the point. Not horrible, not brilliant, not noble, not evil, just an ad executive, like they all are everywhere now. He might commit an atrocity or betrayal, but only if ordered. He will be the boss, but only by default of survival. He's the boring ass present creeping in mediocre-izing the world. He's worthless.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:21 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

In the last season, Don blows up Roger Sterling and becomes Ad Kingpin, marries Peggy, then is murdered along with Peggy and Joan and the entire wedding party by Pete Campbell. The final scene is Pete eating in the diner while "Don't Stop Believin'" plays on the jukebox. Smash cut to black, then after a beat, Don wakes up next to Suzanne Pleshette, who murders him again, beating him to death with Tommy Westphall's snowglobe. Smash cut to black, offscreen, Nelson laughs, "Ha Ha!" [in fine]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:22 AM on June 6, 2013 [15 favorites]

I'm seeing Don driving off, alone, in some horrible '70s car, California bound...
posted by mynameisluka at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

C) the thing doesn't even work considering it's been moldering in a series of offices for the last decade.

IT'S A CHIP AND DIP
posted by shakespeherian at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2013 [19 favorites]

They all end up on an empty Earth and Starbuck just vanishes. We all know how it ends.
posted by GuyZero at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

I don't get the hate for Bob Benson, he's just bland, that's the point.

It's not hatred, it's suspicion.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:25 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'm still pondering that last scene in the latest episode (not exactly any spoilers to follow). What was the emphasis on Pete smoking a doobie to Janis? Was it just stupid? It was the first real "The 60s" reference that seemed lame Time-Life Booksish. Is that supposed to be the point? The moment when the counter-culture entered even the lamest person's life? Idk.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:26 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sometimes you have a really shitty day and just want to SMOKE A FUCKING DOOB.
posted by lalochezia at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

The series ends with Don and Bobby taking a flight together. Bobby gets invited into the cockpit, insults the co-pilot and then the pilot asks him if he likes movies about gladiators. Fade to black.
posted by drezdn at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

I don't get the hate for Bob Benson, he's just bland, that's the point. Not horrible, not brilliant, not noble, not evil, just an ad executive, like they all are everywhere now.

I don't see hate at all for Bob Benson, unless it's from the other account executives on the show. From fans of the show, I see only fascination. But viewers are wise to Matt Weiner's ways now, of moving background characters more and more into the center until suddenly they're married to Don Draper. I think Bob Benson is supposed to serve some purpose, and it's just fun figuring out what it will be.
posted by gladly at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2013 [9 favorites]

The moment when the counter-culture entered even the lamest person's life?

Was that Pete's first joint? Why do I have it stuck in my head that Pete shared a joint at some earlier point?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:28 AM on June 6, 2013

Potomac Avenue: It's Pete finally giving up on trying to be The Good One Who Is Right All The Time because he's been feeling shut out of every aspect of his life for the last several episodes. I am sort of hoping the future has in store Pete Going Off The Deep End and talking to everyone about Pink Floyd at every opportunity or something.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:28 AM on June 6, 2013 [13 favorites]

I think the Pete scene was a sign that he was giving up fighting.
posted by drezdn at 10:28 AM on June 6, 2013

If that's all it was then that it was too on-the-nose to be successful I think. Unless in the next ep we're greeted with Pete the Hippie Dork in scene 1.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:31 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

don't see hate at all for Bob Benson, unless it's from the other account executives on the show. From fans of the show, I see only fascination. But viewers are wise to Matt Weiner's ways now, of moving background characters more and more into the center until suddenly they're married to Don Draper. I think Bob Benson is supposed to serve some purpose, and it's just fun figuring out what it will be.

I was going to say this - no one hates Bob Benson, it's fascination and in my case at least, affection for his two-coffee-cup weirdness.

He's fun.
posted by sweetkid at 10:31 AM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

Maybe I just hate Freedom Rock more than I'm supposed to.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:31 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I can't believe it didn't occur to me until the last thread that the whole summer camp "Bobby 5" thing was a Count the Bobbys joke, and I can't believe I didn't realise until just now that the "Father Abraham had Seven Sons" thing totally was too.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:32 AM on June 6, 2013 [19 favorites]

He's the boring ass present creeping in mediocre-izing the world. He's worthless.

No, he's also cute and helpful.

Also the Pete/Janis Song ...read the lyrics, so many heart motifs in this season, right down to being stabbed in one.
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Final scene, last episode: Don wakes in the apartment, rolls over, Megan is gone. He gets out of bed, coughs, and walks to the kitchen.

We see the back of his head, just as we did in the very first shot of the series. Sitting silently at the kitchen counter are all 5 (5? 4? 6?) Bobby Drapers, waiting. We see the back of his head again.

Cut to black, some iconic pop song you forgot about plays.
posted by dyobmit at 10:34 AM on June 6, 2013 [14 favorites]

Also it's Meredith who is secretly a KGB mole or whatever. She's freaking Princess Giselle
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Next season Joan, Peggy, and Moira (yes, Moira!) will be called upon to fight crime for a top-secret organization led by a disembodied voice who only contacts them by telephone.
posted by Superplin at 10:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Potomac Avenue: "Maybe I just hate Freedom Rock more than I'm supposed to."

Have you tried turning it up, man?
posted by Chrysostom at 10:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [24 favorites]

I think the Pete and Doobie scene was part 'Pete stops fighting against everything around him' and part 'the moment when the counter-culture entered even the lamest person's life.'

The times, they are a changin', man.
posted by saul wright at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

I know I've posted this theory before, but: I always kind of assumed that Madmen, like the sixties themselves, would end at Altamont. Now I'm just waiting for the plot twists that turn Joan into a vengeful Hells Angel security guard and Pete Campbell into a doomed Stones fan.
posted by Sonny Jim at 10:38 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pete ends up as a back to the land proto-yuppie type but is REALLY REALLY aggressive and competitive about it, MY COMPOST IS BEST COMPOST EVERYONE IS DOING IT WRONG I AM WINNING AT BEING LAID BACK.

Basically Pete becomes Pat from Achewood.
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

Fuck, now "Father Abraham" is on repeat in my head.

Unless you are me when I was doing two miles' worth of laps in the pool last week, you have no idea the kind of madness that song causes.
posted by psoas at 10:39 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I like the idea that Bob Benson represents the bland competence that inherits the world. The history of western civilization is one of iconic individualistic leaders slowly being replaced by soulless automatons. Benson embodies this change.
posted by Keith Talent at 10:39 AM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

I see Pete as more of a Herman's Hermits fan.
posted by drezdn at 10:39 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I always kind of assumed that Madmen, like the sixties themselves, would end at Altamont.

Which ties into all the stabbings lately.
posted by drezdn at 10:42 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ending at Altamont would be the opposite of the "going out with a whimper" idea tho.
posted by sweetkid at 10:44 AM on June 6, 2013

I had a theory that Mad Men would end with a bunch of dark happenings, and then the first moon landing. That would leave out Woodstock and nearly half of '69 though.
posted by drezdn at 10:46 AM on June 6, 2013

Oh my god Pete already kind of is Pat from Achewood. Roger is Ray.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:47 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

That would make Don ....Clown Penis?

Bert is Cornelius Bear of course.
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Ken is Theodor. (wait no PEGGY is Theodor)
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

(also, Don face down in a pool? Sunset Boulevard or Great Gatsby allusion? It can be both!)
posted by The Whelk at 10:51 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

It is pretty easy to hear Don saying, "Pretty good, man. Bought a boat, bought a plane."

I am still struggling with Roast Beef. Ginsberg is too outgoing and confident.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:51 AM on June 6, 2013

Wait I never read Achewood before and now I'm trying to figure all that out
posted by sweetkid at 10:52 AM on June 6, 2013

Was it just stupid? It was the first real "The 60s" reference that seemed lame Time-Life Booksish.

I think part of the problem is that "Take Another Little Piece Of My Heart" was in one of those SONGS OF THE SIXTIES compilation commercials back in the mid 90s. It's a great song, but it's one of those songs that's, like, super iconic THAT IS A SONG THAT IS FROM THE 60s along with "Turn, Turn, Turn", "If You're Goin' To San Francisco", "Blowin' In The Wind", "My Generation", etc.

I think Mad Men can use songs like that, but it has to really earn them. I'm not sure it was entirely earned in this situation. Though it helps that it's Pete, and that the song lyrically makes sense, and that it inverts the usual ideas people are trying to evoke with the song.
posted by Sara C. at 10:54 AM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

Aside form Don's near constant suicidal ideaation and self-destruction, there's really no one in the main cast as nakedly depressive and anxiety ridden as Roast Beef.
posted by The Whelk at 10:54 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Not just crimes, sweetkid. Unmasking ghosts. I was kind of joking when I said this in the last thread. I'm not joking now. Make it happen, Weiner!
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:55 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Isn't Bob Benson the guy from Office Space? He is just there waiting for printers to be invented.
posted by srboisvert at 10:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

So I guess Bob is Philippe?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I like to think they earn these little moments just cause of how far the show goes to avoid them usually. Like I would've bet good money last season would end on "Different Drum", but "You Only Live Twice" is so much more perfect and less on the nose-look-its-the-60s!

Actually all the music in the series is really well chosen. Even the Zany Caper Music Which Foretells Something Horrible About To Happen.
posted by The Whelk at 10:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

HERE COMES A SPECIAL ACCOUNTS MAN
posted by The Whelk at 10:57 AM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

It also makes fundamental sense that Don is Beef, just because Roger/Pete/Don can then map onto the Achewood power trio: Roger and Don, who are tight despite their vast differences of worldview and background, and then Pete, who they hang out with mostly because he's always been there.

But which one is the Professor?
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:58 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Isn't Bob Benson the guy from Office Space?

No. Bob Benson is the man everyone wants Peter Gibbons to be.
posted by saul wright at 10:58 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

HERE COMES A SPECIAL ACCOUNTS MAN

Secret Accounts Man!
Secret Accounts Man!
He's givin' you a coffee,
And takin' away your name!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:00 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Yeah, The Whelk. They do such a great job with it that I'm always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't like that one time in Season 1 where they used a Decemberists song, though. Does not work. Need period music, even over the credits.
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

oh Peter Gibbons' girlfriend would have LOVED Bob Benson.
posted by sweetkid at 11:00 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

They used Cardigans Season 1 too.

I didn't mind the anachronistic stuff.
posted by sweetkid at 11:00 AM on June 6, 2013

I've never seen an episode of Mad Men (no, not a one), and so the only things about Mad Men that I know are the bits that filter through to me via the stuff folks type or say about Mad Men (in other words, hearsay, which makes me the sharpest seer, because these eyes are virgin eyes) and most of that seems to be about the iconic retro fashion zeitgeist Mad Men tapped into and exploited, which suggests to me that the show ends where that particular flavor of cool ended, which was... where?

Polyester.
posted by notyou at 11:01 AM on June 6, 2013

no, you just have to watch the show.
posted by sweetkid at 11:02 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

[SPOILER] In the next episode, Megan runs off with Sargent Stadanko.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:04 AM on June 6, 2013

Yeah, I think the cool retro fashion esthetic was how a lot of people got interested, but there is much more to the show than that.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2013

The thing about the zeitgeist of decades is that they bleed together, they're always in transition. Fashions in the first half of Mad Men called back to the '50s, and the second half calls forward to the '70s, which means everyone's already been drowning in polyester for a season and a half. Especially Joan, whose array of feminine superpowers includes an inability to sweat.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:06 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

The link showing the GIF of Pete falling down the stairs is flawed: It doesn't show him slipping that last step on his butt after his fall. That last little step is what makes it art.

Of all the character arcs that are going to unfold, I'm most fascinated to see what happens to Pete. I mean, really, who cares what happens to Don at this point? He'll either make peace with the two parts of his personality (Don and Dick) or he won't. Frankly, given the canon so far, having him learn to love himself wouldn't really be in character.

But Pete. He's finally realizing the futility of trying to succeed in the boardroom world (a realization Ken Cosgrove made some time ago). Maybe after 6+ seasons of watching Don trying to sort shit out, the big payoff is going to be seeing Pete find his bliss.
posted by dry white toast at 11:07 AM on June 6, 2013 [11 favorites]

1. Cooper dies, probably in this season finale. I originally typed Roger Sterling, but I think he is needed.
2. Peggy has some moments with her kid. Where is that kid by the way?
3. I don't really know what will happen with Don, though I imagine we will see more of him becoming less and less attractive to women. Since the show has chronicled his life to such a large degree, it would feel like a bit of a cheat if we don't get to see his ultimate fate.
posted by Kafkaesque at 11:08 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also we're dealing in a very conservative, rich, white miles that is resistant to change- the fact that were seeing trendy what we think of as the 60s looks bleeding into the show is cause, well the look had finally managed to reach even these squares.

Also you could make an argument that the iconic hippie 60s lasted two years, tops. Wasn't there a huge vogue for early 60s stuff in the early 00s?

Also Stan is Lyle on the Achewood map.
posted by The Whelk at 11:08 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Reading Too Much Into ‘Mad Men’: Compelling Evidence That Megan Draper Is Already Dead
posted by whir at 11:10 AM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

Pete and Peggy, Business and Creativity. Making things together at first. Then growing further and further apart until you can't even remember that they used to be joined. Then, what? Something sparks again. An explosion. A new product is born again, to be owned, or given away or sold, or stolen, or loved.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:11 AM on June 6, 2013

I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

In case you missed it in the other thread: Next on Mad Men Season 5 Supercut.
posted by box at 11:12 AM on June 6, 2013

I think its pretty self-evident. Megan dies. Don marries his secretary.

Next season, he dies of a heart attack, and she takes over. Her first day of work she walks in and says "There's a new Don Draper in town."

Then she winks at the camera and says "Dawn Draper."

End of series.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:14 AM on June 6, 2013 [36 favorites]

LYLE
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:14 AM on June 6, 2013

Next season, he dies of a heart attack, and she takes over. Her first day of work she walks in and says "There's a new Don Draper in town."

Then she winks at the camera and says "Dawn Draper."

Given Mad Men's "ew, gross" approach to black people, that would be pretty shocking.
posted by sweetkid at 11:16 AM on June 6, 2013

I predict the current season will end in Jan. 1969 to include the publication of the then-mind-blowing Apollo 8 blue-marble photos, plus Nixon's inauguration for good measure.
posted by gubo at 11:16 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Something something Archie Bunker.
posted by sweetkid at 11:17 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

notyou, we are already well into the era of polyester and of the principal characters all looking like awkward garish fashion victims most of the time.

Sometimes you get a random guest hippie who looks cool to 2013 eyes, and there are notable exceptions (Megan, sometimes Joan, occasionally Peggy) who still look glamorous. But I think the people who were only watching for the slim cut suits and crinolines turned off a few seasons ago.
posted by Sara C. at 11:18 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I seriously want Betty to start dressing like Hookah Blond. I know there's no chance in hell, but I'd like it.
posted by sweetkid at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Harry Crane, fashion victim number one.
posted by The Whelk at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Then she winks at the camera and says "Dawn Draper."

End of series.

Not the end of the series, because it turns out that Dawn is actually an ancient key that opens a Hellmouth.

So they fire her, because her mouth is annoying as hell everytime she opens it.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:20 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think the series will end with Don dead or in jail.

Roger's going to kick the bucket at some point. I'm surprised he hasn't already.

Pete's well on his way to being some cranky old man no one likes already, and I don't see that changing. Likewise with Harry, only he'll be a sleazebag. But despite their personality problems, they're both very good at what they do, so they'll continue to do fairly well professionally.

I hope good things for Joan in terms of professional development and her finding a good man, but she always winds up taking it in the teeth, so I dread seeing her fate play out.

Barring any tragic accidents, Peggy will be fine too, continuing to succeed professionally and either finding the right guy for her or continuing to move from one relatively decent relationship to another. Megan will be fine once she leaves Don. Betty will probably be okay too. I hope Trudy finds a hot new husband who really loves and deserves her. Ken will continue to do well and be the happiest, most stable guy in the Mad Men world, as always.

Sally and Bobby's lives are just beginning, so there's no telling how they'll turn out — the same goes for all the other Mad Men kids, unless any of them die.

Things I want to find out: what's going on with Moira and Bob. And what happened to Sal Romano.

I think the cool retro fashion aesthetic was how a lot of people got interested

It's what reeled me in. I wanted to see what Joan was wearing, because I'd heard so much about how much better she looks on the show than Christina Hendricks usually looks in real life, and as a voluptuous redhead myself I was hoping to pick up on a few tips and ideas.
posted by orange swan at 11:20 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peggy has some moments with her kid. Where is that kid by the way?

It has been established that she put the kid up for adoption.

Did you mean Joan? My guess is that we don't see Kevin much for the same reason we rarely see Gene and have maybe never seen Tammy Campbell -- toddlers are boring, expensive, and hard to direct. I can't think of a storyline Mad Men would do that REQUIRED a toddler to be the focal point of a scene.
posted by Sara C. at 11:21 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Roger's going to kick the bucket at some point. I'm surprised he hasn't already.

Because John Slattery is FANTASTIC. As an actor and director.
posted by sweetkid at 11:22 AM on June 6, 2013 [11 favorites]

It has been established that she put the kid up for adoption.

Ha. Shows how much I know.
posted by Kafkaesque at 11:23 AM on June 6, 2013

but she always winds up taking it in the teeth, so I dread seeing her fate play out.

Yeah Joan's THING is that she always gets what she wants in the worst possible way, which is why I'm gunning for a bearding-kinda relationship with Bob (who if he's not queer I'll eat my hat, Stonewall is just months away) cause, nice guy who is not trying to get in her fitting blue business suit would be a nice change of pace and give her a measure of stability - although knowing how the show likes to treat Joan I can see it going into a very "A Single Man" place quickly.
posted by The Whelk at 11:24 AM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

She only ever says it blatantly, once, when she tells Pete that it happened after he tries to make a play for her. In season 3 or 4, I think?

And I don't think she uses the word "adoption", but "I gave it up."
posted by Sara C. at 11:25 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Peggy's sister had a kid around the same time and that was the baby she was holding in a couple episodes. The fact that the babies were born around the same time was partially a plot point to mess with Peggy's resolve.
posted by mikeh at 11:26 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

At some point in the last season Joan has to stab Pete in the neck with a letter opener.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:27 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Speaking of Baby Gene, shouldn't he be old enough to be more of a factor, now? He's got to be at least four at this point. We saw (a version of) Bobby at that age.
posted by Sara C. at 11:27 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

In a thread from last year, I wrote:

If they are going to kill anyone ..., which I don't count as a certainty this season, how about Megan?Don's already had one divorce and already had the wife who just pretended not to see his affairs. We've seen him self-destruct the rest of his romantic relationships in various ways. So if they want to go in a different direction with this relationship...

Well, they didn't kill Megan that season or the next but those sirens are getting louder and louder. Don was actually shouting over them. And everyone was all "Oh, not this again," when it looked like Don was going to blow things up with Megan via Sylvia. On the other hand I think it might inject a bit too much chaos. With her increasing TV screen time, maybe she'll get some sort of California-based movie offer which will lead to a showdown with Don.
posted by mikepop at 11:28 AM on June 6, 2013

Megan Draper had many teeth.
Many teeth had Megan Draper.
posted by Kabanos at 11:28 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Ken will continue to do well and be the happiest, most stable guy in the Mad Men world, as always.

We don't know what's been happening to him in Detroit. We need a comic book spinoff or something.
posted by mikepop at 11:29 AM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

The fact that the babies were born around the same time was partially a plot point to mess with Peggy's resolve.

Also to troll the shit out of everyone, because it's never actually SAID that her sister was pregnant or that that the baby is her nephew. You have to be really observant in the flashback to Peggy's family visiting her in the mental hospital.
posted by Sara C. at 11:29 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Also to troll the shit out of everyone, because it's never actually SAID that her sister was pregnant or that that the baby is her nephew. You have to be really observant in the flashback to Peggy's family visiting her in the mental hospital.

Yeah, that was a beautifully ambiguous piece of writing.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:30 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Well, they didn't kill Megan that season or the next but those sirens are getting louder and louder. Don was actually shouting over them. And everyone was all "Oh, not this again," when it looked like Don was going to blow things up with Megan via Sylvia. On the other hand I think it might inject a bit too much chaos. With her increasing TV screen time, maybe she'll get some sort of California-based movie offer which will lead to a showdown with Don.

Yea I felt like we had this huge misdirection where everyone thought Megan would find out about Sylvia and it would be a showdown, but then everything with Sylvia fizzled quickly.

Kind of why I think with the huge arrows pointing to Tate/Megan, there might be a bit more misdirection going on.

Although last season I recognized the misdirection with everyone thinking Pete was going to die and it turned out to be Lane. I don't think Dead Pete would be good for the show, but Dead Lane is working out just fine.

(Sorry I do love you Jared Harris).
posted by sweetkid at 11:32 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

And what happened to Sal Romano.

He adopted Chauncey Phillips.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

I saw Jared Harris talk about finding out he was going to die off on the show in LA. He said as Weiner was walking him out of his office, after breaking the news, they passed a sign in the hall that said "Lane Ends." Weiner pointed to the sign and said "That's where I got the idea!"
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:34 AM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

That is cold.
posted by sweetkid at 11:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Harry Crane is just going to keep falling up until he's insisting that Superman The Movie have a huge robot spider in it
posted by The Whelk at 11:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [17 favorites]

Also, on most shows, a death going as unmentioned as Lane's would feel like the character was being shuffled under the rug by the creators; on Mad Men it's just par for the repressed and past-smothering course.

I think only Dawn (the only person to express sympathy) and Pete ("two of those men are as dead as doornails") have been the only ones to mention Lane all year. I wonder if anyone ever moved into his office, though.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:35 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think only Dawn (the only person to express sympathy)

What do you mean? Joan seemed devastated.
posted by sweetkid at 11:36 AM on June 6, 2013

I thought they were going to put the staircase in Lane's office, but no. Maybe it's a storage closet now.
posted by donajo at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2013

Ken will continue to do well and be the happiest, most stable guy in the Mad Men world, as always.

We don't know what's been happening to him in Detroit. We need a comic book spinoff or something.

Uptil this season I would've agreed with you, he's getting it in the teeth from the Chevy guys. I expect a full on Roman A'Clef about the ad world published under a pseudonym soon
posted by The Whelk at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

I think they should all become costumed vigilantes.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2013

yea Ken's coming unglued. I don't know if it matters though.
posted by sweetkid at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2013

Has anyone made a map of SCDP/SC&P? I feel like it would be really helpful to keep track of the shifting power dynamics.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh, no, Joan definitely was -- I was talking about this season only, after the initial shock. Not quite fair of me to say only Dawn was sympathetic, just that only Dawn was still talking about him sympathetically.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:38 AM on June 6, 2013

I think they should all become costumed vigilantes.

"Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city's afraid of me. I've seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood. And when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No." Now the whole world stands on the brink staring down into bloody hell. All those liberals, and intellectuals, and smooth-talkers; and all of a sudden no one can think of anything to say. Beneath me, this awful city, it screams like an abattoir full of retarded children. And the night reeks of fornication and bad consciences." - Pete Cambell
posted by The Whelk at 11:40 AM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

Looks like someone did, though it's from a few years ago and doesn't reflect the still-nebulous second floor.

I have a dubious sense of space and never picked up that Don's and Peggy's offices were actually next to each other.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:40 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete Cambell Taxi Driver
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:41 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Gene was born June 1963, so he's five. Which is how old Bobby was in Season 2.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2013

...And now Peggy's as far away from Don as she can get, though next to Ted and across from Joan.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

They should do one whole episode next season like the Crimer Twitter account.
posted by sweetkid at 11:43 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

...And now Peggy's as far away from Don as she can get, though next to Ted and across from Joan.

Yup. Brilliant.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:45 AM on June 6, 2013

Yea I felt like we had this huge misdirection where everyone thought Megan would find out about Sylvia and it would be a showdown, but then everything with Sylvia fizzled quickly.

Funny, I've now come back around to the idea that Megan will find out about Sylvia and that the whole Sharon Tate/stabby/murder/siren thing is misdirection. I mean, Sylvia and Artie still live in the building. Megan knows nothing so would presumably still be friendly with Sylvia, and socially it wouldn't be appropriate for Sylvia to completely shun Megan. Sylvia and Artie's marriage is still in the toilet. The thing about shitting where you eat is that the shit stays there.

That said I'm not sure where the story goes from Megan finding out. Like, does she find out but forgive him? I doubt it would end their marriage. But maybe it would? They already did the "I want to leave you but now I'm pregnant" thing with Betty, and have already done an abortion story with Joan, so it seems unlikely that they'll rehash either of those.
posted by Sara C. at 11:45 AM on June 6, 2013

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Megan is deaddeaddead. And I call Ginsberg with a knife in the Draper apartment.

Ginsberg is gonna BLOW.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:46 AM on June 6, 2013

that's a joke right?
posted by sweetkid at 11:47 AM on June 6, 2013

I wonder if anyone ever moved into his office, though.

I wonder if this was the inspiration behind the merger.

If only we had some new people who didn't know about the Lane thing so we could FINALLY fill that office...

There was also that big scene where Joan made a big show of assigning everyone to their new offices. I bet you anything they made sure to put a CGC person in Lane's.
posted by Sara C. at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't think that map is an accurate portrayal of SCDP, thesmallmachine. Wasn't Lane's office next to Pete's? I thought when he had hanged himself, they discovered him by peeking through Pete's partition. Or am I misremembering?
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2013

Gene was born June 1963, so he's five. Which is how old Bobby was in Season 2.

That's weird, I feel like they're still in "help the baby put his shoes on" territory with him.
posted by Sara C. at 11:50 AM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

And "Peggy's" office next to Don was shared with Stan and Ginzo, of course, which is why it's never been empty.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:51 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete and Harry had switched offices by then.

Ah, well, that'd sort it. There you go.
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:52 AM on June 6, 2013

Gene is kept in storage when not in use.
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 AM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Pete and Harry had switched offices by then.

Did you remember that just, outta your brain? Damn I'm impressed.
posted by sweetkid at 11:52 AM on June 6, 2013

My pet theory is that the show will end with Don jumping off the roof of the building, just like they show in the credits every episode.

Or maybe it's just a metaphor.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:53 AM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Did you remember that just, outta your brain? Damn I'm impressed.

Yeah, actually. The crappy office with the support column sticks out in my mind because so much as been made of it--Pete's fight to get out of it and give it to Harry and now Peggy getting stuck there.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:55 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

My pet theory is that the show will end with Don jumping off the roof of the building, just like they show in the credits every episode.

That was actually supposed to be Harry Crane. He was going to commit suicide at the end of the first season by leaping from the roof, but they decided they liked him too much. At least, that's Rich Sommer's understanding of it:

Q: I read somewhere on the interweb that Harry was actually supposed to die in the first couple of episodes, maybe even jumping off a building a la the opening credits? Is this true? (Also, I'd just like to say that I've seen The Devil Wears Prada approximately 37 times because HBO keeps running it, and I just realized now that you played Doug.)

A: I don't think it was supposed to be in the first couple episodes, but I definitely heard that rumor, too. And I only feel okay talking about it because I was not the one who put that out into the world. It was my understanding that Harry was to commit suicide. Um, thank God he didn't.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2013

yea no I remember the office just not the ordering of events. I guess that makes sense though since it was the last ep of season and it the switching happened last season
posted by sweetkid at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2013

I feel like I had a good sense of the original Sterling Cooper offices but SCDP, especially now on two floors and with a bunch of CGC people to factor in, I have no idea. Aside from Peggy having the pillar office.

Part of the problem is that we haven't seen a lot of it. Hell, as of the premiere I was sure that Bert still didn't have an office, until they revealed that his actually has an enormous glass wall and he was not, in fact, sitting in some kind of communal area.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Can I just say, too, that the scene where Roger bribes Harry to switch offices is one of my favorites.
posted by .kobayashi. at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'd just like to say that I've seen The Devil Wears Prada approximately 37 times because HBO keeps running it, and I just realized now that you played Doug

whoa, yeah he was one of Anne Hathaway's asshole friends who were always complaining about her job.
posted by sweetkid at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2013

One way to anchor yourself in the SC&P offices slightly is to realize that the conference room hasn't moved, and the staircase that is now visible from that room was formerly a space for secretary desks. It's also the space where Roger did the sexy Frere Jacques dance the morning after Don's surprise birthday in Season 5. That may not be news to anybody, but it made things make a lot more sense to me when I realized it.
posted by invitapriore at 12:00 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

and now Peggy getting stuck there

Which is interesting because Peggy clearly doesn't give a shit.

That said, I agree that it's better if a creative has that office because they won't be having client meetings there. I think one of the arguments between Pete and Harry on that score was who was more client facing and whether they would be likely to meet with clients in their office specifically.
posted by Sara C. at 12:01 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

...In the first few minutes of "Man with a Plan," Joan is actually in the process of assigning Lane's office ("the second office from reception") to a CGC guy named John Mathis.
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

I loved how Pete made all the partners come sit in his office with him just to show how much it sucked.
posted by sweetkid at 12:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think it's interesting that the reason that office is so crappy is that Roger (and now Ted's) office is huuuuuuuuge.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Hmm actually it seems like that entire floor is probably creative now, isn't it? That makes a lot of sense, since accounts is upstairs, but I'd never really thought about it before.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:03 PM on June 6, 2013

The show ends when no one has an office. Just cubicles, as far as the eye can see.
posted by desjardins at 12:04 PM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

I WILL NOT FAVORITE THAT
posted by sweetkid at 12:05 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

It seems weird to me that Harry would have committed suicide in the first season, considering how little we saw of him and how inconsequential he was to basically any plot at all.

I was just wondering about him in the first season and how in every scene he's in he says "IM MARRIED" and then sleeps with Hildy at the election night thing and then gets kicked out by his wife and cries in the Carousel pitch meeting. And these are tiny, tiny moments, yet a whole arc of a character who has barely any screen time. How the fuck would they have justified suicide, there?

And the fact that there was another suicide in the first season -- like, how many suicides can you pack into thirteen episodes of a cable series set in a super-specific universe that it took several episodes to even set up? It's notable that there have been two suicides across the whole span of the series, let alone two in the first season.
posted by Sara C. at 12:06 PM on June 6, 2013

Hey while we're in recap mode I just want to share that this is one of my favorite moments in the show on so many levels. I could watch it over and over.
posted by invitapriore at 12:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

FAVORITING THAT IS A MANDATORY ACTION ITEM TO BE LASER FOCUSED ON
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

The thing to remember when trying to project future outcomes for the characters is that this is still the generation that stayed with one career, and mostly one employer forever. Don and Roger are the type that keep doing what they're doing until the band plays them off stage.

Peggy, Pete and their ilk are more susceptible to change, but still so very much boomers. I mean, for all the talk about Pete going from Company Man to hippie, remember the trend was the other way: hippies spent the 60's partying and then "surrendered to The Man" when the 60's ran out of gas and they needed to pay the bills.

Hell, almost every main character has gotten divorced (Roger twice!) over the arc over the show! While it's not like divorce was unheard of in the 60's, to find so many divorces in a given group of people at the time is really not typical.

My point is that people didn't change tracks easily in this period. In that way, at least Don is true-to-life. So slow evolution is more plausible for each character's narrative then significant upheaval.
posted by dry white toast at 12:07 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

STAY FOCUSED AND KEEP SHIPPING
posted by sweetkid at 12:07 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I just downloaded Man with a Plan real quick, and Joan is actually in the process of assigning Lane's office ("the second office from reception") to a CGC guy named John Mathis.

Chances are, he's since been fired for wearing a silly grin.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:08 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

hippies spent the 60's partying and then "surrendered to The Man"

Did they? I have no idea. I thought they were just in college.
posted by sweetkid at 12:08 PM on June 6, 2013

almost every main character has gotten divorced

Not really, just Roger, Don, and Pete.

While I guess it's statistically unusual, I think they represent a high risk group.
posted by Sara C. at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Joan? Also Betty.
posted by sweetkid at 12:10 PM on June 6, 2013

And Joan.
posted by dry white toast at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2013

Oh, and Duck, if you consider Duck a "main character". But again, he's in that same high risk group.
posted by Sara C. at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2013

Joan and Betty and then Joan.
posted by sweetkid at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2013

I don't consider Duck a main character.
posted by sweetkid at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

He's gonna shit in your office for that, sweetkid.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:12 PM on June 6, 2013 [14 favorites]

But Betty is divorced from Don, so that's not statistically unusual that two people who used to be married to each other are both divorced from each other.

Joan I forgot, it's true. She's probably the real outlier case, here, since I'm pretty sure well-off white professional guys living the suburban ennui lifestyle were basically ALL getting divorced in that time period.
posted by Sara C. at 12:12 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

If you're talking about the core from the first season, that only leaves Harry, Ken, Peggy, and Bert (unless Bert is a widower? his status isn't clear to me). So that's half-ish. I'll amend my "almost everyone", but five divorces amongst 8 or 9 people (counting Roger twice) is really high for the 60's. Yes, perhaps a high risk group, but even in high risk groups, that was not the trend at the time.
posted by dry white toast at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peggy is sort of divorced now, isn't she?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:16 PM on June 6, 2013

Isn't Bert's sister a silent partner? Did she get bought out? I must have missed that.
posted by readery at 12:16 PM on June 6, 2013

There's a cemetery near my house where I sometimes walk my dog. The graves are from different periods, but there are a lot from the 60's-80's. There are a lot of double-tombstone graves where one member of a married couple died in that period and is buried there (it'll even say "Beloved Wife And Mother"), and then the other side is empty.

For some reason it makes me think of all the people who got married in the 50's and who got divorced in the 60s and 70s.

Forever alone.
posted by Sara C. at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

And OMG, yes! "Did you enjoy ze Fuhrer's birthday?" is my favourite line of the show by leaps and bounds. Jon Hamm delivers that line so perfectly.

Although for favourite scene, I have to go with the Lane/Pete fight. So much awesome.
posted by dry white toast at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Good catch. She cashed out when they sold to the Brits. But she never came back in when they split off to form SCDP.
posted by dry white toast at 12:19 PM on June 6, 2013

here's a cemetery near my house where I sometimes walk my dog. The graves are from different periods, but there are a lot from the 60's-80's. There are a lot of double-tombstone graves where one member of a married couple died in that period and is buried there (it'll even say "Beloved Wife And Mother"), and then the other side is empty.

For some reason it makes me think of all the people who got married in the 50's and who got divorced in the 60s and 70s.

Forever alone.

Well hey there's my day ruined by sads
posted by sweetkid at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Yes, perhaps a high risk group, but even in high risk groups, that was not the trend at the time.

They had to get the "50% of marriages end in divorce" stat from somewhere, right?

It has never surprised me that like EVERYONE on Mad Men keeps getting divorced.

That said, my parents are divorced and I see divorce as a totally normal thing. I know it was a bigger deal in the 60's, but again, I think Mad Men is pretty much at the epicenter of the divorce moment in American culture.
posted by Sara C. at 12:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

There are a lot of double-tombstone graves where one member of a married couple died in that period and is buried there (it'll even say "Beloved Wife And Mother"), and then the other side is empty. There are a lot of double-tombstone graves where one member of a married couple died in that period and is buried there (it'll even say "Beloved Wife And Mother"), and then the other side is empty.

If sitcoms of the era are any indication, it was very common for beloved wives and mothers to die before their husbands and children back then. (With hilarious results!) So that's probably all that is. A sitcom cemetery.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:23 PM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

Sweetkid, I spend a disturbing amount of time thinking about WHY that person isn't buried next to anyone else.
posted by Sara C. at 12:25 PM on June 6, 2013

They had to get the "50% of marriages end in divorce" stat from somewhere, right?

That figure is actually the result of a misunderstanding of numbers which then turned into a meme.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:25 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

One of the things I like about this show is all the acting done via cigarette. Sometimes Don looks like he has something to say, but instead he lights a cigarette and makes a quizzical face instead.

I also enjoy Pete doing anything. He's like a tightly wound spring made of bitterness and contempt, lightly coated in sweat and Gin. With ridiculous hair. Oh, Pete.
posted by Biblio at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2013 [11 favorites]

They had to get the "50% of marriages end in divorce" stat from somewhere, right?

That figure is actually the result of a misunderstanding of numbers which then turned into a meme.

Yea from what I understand that statistic came from data that said that in a given year there were twice as many divorces registered as marriages.
posted by sweetkid at 12:26 PM on June 6, 2013

I also enjoy Pete doing anything. He's like a tightly wound spring made of bitterness and contempt, lightly coated in sweat and Gin. With ridiculous hair. Oh, Pete.

ME TOO
posted by sweetkid at 12:27 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sweetkid, I spend a disturbing amount of time thinking about WHY that person isn't buried next to anyone else.

Seriously, it's usually just because the other person isn't dead yet.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:27 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

"Did you enjoy ze Fuhrer's birthday?" is my favourite line of the show by leaps and bounds.

The Mad Men actors don't get to play with accents very much. Matt Weiner actually has a rule about accents. He doesn't think anyone ever gets an assumed accent quite right, so he'll only cast roles with actors of the character's nationality. He even has a Canadian playing Canadian-born Megan, though most casting directors will cast North American actors interchangeably. Carla Buono is actually from the Bronx and had to bring back her natural regional accent she had worked so hard to get rid of. So the few times we've seen these actors do accents, it was for a gag, or it was Megan playing Colette with a French accent on a soap opera, so it was okay for the accent to be less than authentic and rather cheesy. How would twins wind up with different accents, realistically? Not to mention that one is a maid and the other is "pure class and sophistication".
posted by orange swan at 12:27 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

One of the things I like about this show is all the acting done via cigarette.

The best bit of the Lane/Pete fight scene is when Roger pops a cigarette in his mouth just as they put their dukes up. Damn, I can watch that scene over and over.
posted by dry white toast at 12:27 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

That figure is actually the result of a misunderstanding of numbers which then turned into a meme.

No, I know, I'm just saying a lot of people were getting divorced around that time and it doesn't strike me as odd at all that there would be a lot of people at SCDP specifically who were dealing with that in the years the show covers. Our main characters are the poster children for "people who got divorced in the 60s". Except, again, for maybe Joan.
posted by Sara C. at 12:28 PM on June 6, 2013

So the few times we've seen these actors do accents, it was for a gag

Also whatever was going on with Peggy saying "PIZZA HOUSE!"
posted by sweetkid at 12:28 PM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

(Megan's french-speaking accent isn't at all Quebecois but then it was explained that her snooty French-From-France parents probably wouldn't stand to have their daughter speak in such a dialect. She does let loose a few Quebecois curses however.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Peggy, Stan and Micheal Ginsberg break off to form a new agency.

Two Guys, A Girl, and PIZZA HOUSE.
posted by The Whelk at 12:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [9 favorites]

He even has a Canadian playing Canadian-born Megan, though most casting directors will cast North American actors interchangeably.

I always assumed they made Megan Canadian because Jessica Pare is Canadian. Which would explain the weird feint where supposedly her family is "French", but then she's Canadian, but they had to go out of the way to explain that they're not French Canadian.

Re accents in general, I think the main exception here is Elisabeth Moss. Who actually does a great job of giving her accent a Brooklyn tinge here and there without being over the top about it.
posted by Sara C. at 12:32 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yea I think they made Megan Canadian because Jessica Pare is, also. There wouldn't be much reason for them to write in a Canadian.

Wait wait though guys - Julia Ormond's accent is fakety fake fake.
posted by sweetkid at 12:33 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah her speaking French could be .....better.
posted by The Whelk at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2013

Wait wait though guys - Julia Ormond's accent is fakety fake fake.

Seriously. Frenchy's from England.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2013

She does let a few Quebecois curses however.

Megan's accent choice is interesting to me. She's European French, but grew up in Quebec. But she most definitely does not speak Quebecois French. She would have been surrounded by it growing up, but I wonder if her mother would have drilled it out of her.
posted by dry white toast at 12:35 PM on June 6, 2013

yea so there goes the "no accents rule."

SWEETKID EXPOSES THE TRUTH
posted by sweetkid at 12:35 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wait wait though guys - Julia Ormond's accent is fakety fake fake.

When you can get Julia Ormond, you hire an accent coach.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:35 PM on June 6, 2013

Wait...that's Sabrina? I must have a terrible TV. It took me weeks to recognize Harry Hamlin, too.
posted by Biblio at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2013

Megan's accent choice is interesting to me. She's European French, but grew up in Quebec. But she most definitely does not speak Quebecois French. She would have been surrounded by it growing up, but I wonder if her mother would have drilled it out of her.

But has it ever been officially established that they're supposed to be European French, or is that just something we've all decided to believe on account of it's the only way the accents make sense?

When you can get Julia Ormond, you hire an accent coach.

Probably should have sprung for a better one, then.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sorry guys, there are Quebequois curses happening on Mad Men and I'm not aware of this?!

Quebequois swear words are one of my favorite things to nerd out about.

I guess my French listening skills have gotten really shitty over the years.
posted by Sara C. at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, Megan explains to Don early on that she took diction classes when she got to New York to sound more American. So no accent in English for Megan. But the dialect comes out when she speaks French.
posted by dry white toast at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2013

NO AUDREY HEPBURN IS SABRINA.
posted by sweetkid at 12:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Sorry guys, there are Quebequois curses happening on Mad Men and I'm not aware of this?!

Yeah, there's definitely a câlice in there somewhere.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:40 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Sorry guys, there are Quebequois curses happening on Mad Men and I'm not aware of this?!

Last season premiere, before the surprise party, she drops a "Calice!" when fumbling for her keys.
posted by The Whelk at 12:40 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

to sound more American. So no accent in English for Megan.

Except that she actually sounds really Canadian.

And I'm also a little confused about how diction lessons would help someone sound less Canadian, anyway aside from maybe the "aboot" thing.

I don't think most casting directors in 1960-whatever would have cared about someone having a Canadian accent. Most casting directors in 2013 certainly don't. The only time I've ever seen it pointed out is with Robin on How I Met Your Mother.

Maybe she means she took diction lessons in Montreal to sound less like Celine Dion, but the result is that she got an anglophone Canadian accent?
posted by Sara C. at 12:41 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

yea Megan sounds pretty Canadian to me.
posted by sweetkid at 12:42 PM on June 6, 2013

Pretty sure they finally established that Megan's parents are French French a few episodes ago -- when her mother's talking to Arnold Rosen.
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:43 PM on June 6, 2013

Maybe she means she took diction lessons in Montreal to sound less like Celine Dion

why am I now imagining Megan singing "It's all coming back to me now" with an over the top mad Men set video for it and why can't I stop?
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I keep expecting Hamlin to get fired since he's such a well known actor. It's crazy that he got his start playing in Hercules in 1969. Must be surreal being in a show set in a time you lived through that most of the viewers have no recollection of whatsoever.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:43 PM on June 6, 2013

Pretty sure they finally established that Megan's parents are French French a few episodes ago -- when her mother's talking to Arnold Rosen.

Yes and no.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:45 PM on June 6, 2013

Huh. Weiner must have made one exception, then. Don't know why they didn't get, say, Juliette Binoche to be Maria Calvet. She's Parisian, and has the right look. At 16 years older than Jessica Paré, she's a little young to play Megan's mother, but she could play a few years older than she is. Oh wait, I just checked. Julia Ormond is a year younger than Juliette Binoche, so the age thing definitely wouldn't be a problem.

Which would explain the weird feint where supposedly her family is "French", but then she's Canadian, but they had to go out of the way to explain that they're not French Canadian.

When was that established? I seem to distinctly recall Maman Calvet explaining to Roger that she is French, but is not from Paris, as she lives in Montreal.
posted by orange swan at 12:46 PM on June 6, 2013

why am I now imagining Megan singing "It's all coming back to me now" with an over the top mad Men set video for it and why can't I stop?

Is she beating her chest in your version? She is in mine.
posted by orange swan at 12:48 PM on June 6, 2013

Don't know why they didn't get, say, Juliette Binoche to be Maria Calvet.

Because if there were then scenes of Mad Men that could have had Juliette Binoche but instead had other, lesser people instead I would FUCKING RIOT
posted by shakespeherian at 12:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Weiner must have made one exception

There are tons of exceptions. I don't think any of the core cast are from where their characters are supposedly from. I mean, none of them are native New Yorkers AFAIK. Jon Hamm is from Missouri, not Pennsylvania. Christina Hendricks is from Tennessee yet they've gone out of their way to imply that Joan is from Washington State.
posted by Sara C. at 12:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Fuck the accent, Julia Ormond and John Slattery had a lot of chemistry.
posted by readery at 12:53 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

They do and now for the first time ever I am considering reading slash.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:54 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also Marie is a delight every time she appears on screen to casually wreck things.
posted by The Whelk at 12:54 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Weiner's rule was concerned with nationality, not states or provinces. He would only cast American actors to play Americans, British to play British, and so forth.
posted by orange swan at 12:55 PM on June 6, 2013

At 16 years older than Jessica Paré, she's a little young to play Megan's mother, but she could play a few years older than she is

yeah also Jessica Pare is five years older than Megan.

And January Jones and Jessica Pare are only two years (almost three) apart which always interests me because the younger wife/middle aged lady thing bleeds into social discussion of January v Jessica.
posted by sweetkid at 12:55 PM on June 6, 2013

They do and now for the first time ever I am considering reading slash.

Ther is uh, surprisingly little decent Mad Men fic out there, or so I've heard.
posted by The Whelk at 12:56 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Weiner's rule was concerned with nationality, not states or provinces. He would only cast American actors to play Americans, British to play British, and so forth.

But then there was Ormond. And Father of Megan who is apparently Belgian.
posted by sweetkid at 12:56 PM on June 6, 2013

I just figured it out:
Don is Lucille
Peggy is Michael
Ginsberg is Buster
Ted Chaough is Lucille 2
Bob Benson is Maebe
posted by drezdn at 12:57 PM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

January Jones - from one of the Dakotas, not Philadelphia. Which you can tell from her accent, which doesn't correspond to someone from the Main Line at all.

John Slattery - from Boston, not Manhattan. And in fact his accent, like January Jones', totally betrays this.

Vincent Kartheiser - born in Minneapolis, not Manhattan, but he is clearly putting on an upper crust WASP accent.

Aaron Staton - from West Virginia despite the fact that his character is written specifically as being from Vemont.

I don't think the show has any particular policy on actors, dialect, and character backgrounds, at all.
posted by Sara C. at 12:57 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I heard Matthew Weiner say he had the matching nationality rule on one of the commentary tracks, so yes it does, but obviously he has made a few exceptions.
posted by orange swan at 12:59 PM on June 6, 2013

And, I mean, Peggy? Brooklyn?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:59 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Yea I know Main Line people actually and January doesn't sound like them.
posted by sweetkid at 12:59 PM on June 6, 2013

and now the story of a wealthy ad agency that nearly lost everything and the lying philanderer who had no choice but to keep up the pretense of being a functioning human being....
posted by The Whelk at 1:00 PM on June 6, 2013 [12 favorites]

yeah but what's the point of having Americans play Americans if you get all the regional accents wrong?
posted by sweetkid at 1:01 PM on June 6, 2013

Maybe they should have got Patti Smith to play Betty.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:01 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I just wish they'd work harder on the dialogue; there was a particular way of speaking that they mostly don't even attempt. Instead you have people snapping 90isms or later, like "Not an option!" Which is just ruinously bad.

As bad as those Selectric IIs which even as of this season still won't even be invented for three more years, and almost as bad as the velcro binding on the sphygmomanometer in Don's first season exam.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:01 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

almost as bad as the velcro binding on the sphygmomanometer in Don's first season exam.

frymeme.jpg
posted by The Whelk at 1:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

wow you guys are nerds it's just a TV show
posted by sweetkid at 1:04 PM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

Also, shouldn't they be in black and white?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:05 PM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

And shouldn't the married characters be sleeping in twin beds?
posted by orange swan at 1:06 PM on June 6, 2013

Yeah Peggy def has a light nasal Brooklyn snarl that comes out when she's upset. It's a very neat detail.
posted by The Whelk at 1:07 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

YES THE POINT OF THIS SHOW IS TO PERFECTLY DEPICT THE PERIOD

WE SHOULDN'T EVEN WATCH IT, JUST KNOW THAT IT EXISTS
posted by shakespeherian at 1:07 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Matt Weiner didn't write it DURING the 60s so basically it's garbage
posted by sweetkid at 1:09 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Guys I think this story is totally made up, it's nothing but LIES.
posted by The Whelk at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

Just teasing about the blood pressure cuff (though I'm pretty sure the medical appliance industry was way too conservative to adopt velcro until much later, possibly on durability grounds), but I do wish they'd settle on either trying to get the speech right or not, rather than mixing it up, which just looks lazy.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2013

I don't think most casting directors in 1960-whatever would have cared about someone having a Canadian accent.

I always thought Jonathan Frid sounded super-Canadian on Dark Shadows. When I heard his natural offstage accent for the first time, I was shocked to discover that he had MAJORLY de-Canadized it for stage and screen after intense dialect coaching at RADA. His natural voice makes maple syrup run out your ears.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

georgespiggotwaskidding.gif
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don's Brylcreem doesn't even smell.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Realistically everyone the show does have hemorrhoids though.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:12 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

His natural voice makes maple syrup run out your ears.

Since when? I don't want that! /Pete
posted by sweetkid at 1:13 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

Maybe they should have got Patti Smith to play Betty.

I'm glad they didn't, since I would have gotten fired from my job and lost my home and become a homeless vagrant hobo because I would do NOTHING BUT WATCH MAD MEN.

(I love Patti Smith and her accent so much.)
posted by Sara C. at 1:15 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

They should have made British people play all the Americans, just like they play the Germans in war movies.
posted by drezdn at 1:15 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I also miss Pete saying "... A thing like that." in the first couple of seasons. That was such plausible verbal nullity for someone of his background and it fit his character at that time beautifully.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

(I love Patti Smith and her accent so much.)

Sometime I just want to put together a moodboard of the things Sara C. likes.
posted by sweetkid at 1:16 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

You should start following me on Pinterest.
posted by Sara C. at 1:17 PM on June 6, 2013

I also miss Pete saying "... A thing like that."

Too often when making dinner, I think about the scene where Pete first tells Trudy what he wants for dinner... "Steak, in the pan. With butter. [pause] Ice cream."

Then he tells the fellas he'll have dinner waiting when he gets home.

He just seems so truly happy.
posted by sweetkid at 1:18 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

You should start following me on Pinterest.

AM I NOT?
posted by sweetkid at 1:18 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Just link me right to your "Stories of the Famous" board plz.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:18 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I have a Betty Draper Pinterest Board guys
posted by sweetkid at 1:19 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

40 minutes till I get to leave work for TWO WEEKS more Mad Men theories please I am so fucking burnt out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:19 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Betty's comeback is the best by the way. The new Betty's like HI H8Rs times 1 million.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:20 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

TL;DP:

- Patti Smith
- bad-ass girl gangs
- album covers
- Leonard Nimoy
- non-Anglophone typography
- pictures of people dancing
- nordic interior design
- rock gig posters
- some clothes, mostly black
posted by Sara C. at 1:21 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Hi I'm betty draper im a skinny-bitch blond & i fuck like a mountain lion then leave u for dead get used to it. Now who wants to burn some fucking bras?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:21 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Bob Benson is Maebe

Marry me!
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

Sweetkid, usually I just favorite the ones that make me laugh, but your "since when? I don't want that!" gave me all the hysterical joy of the original moment and I feel that it is right to say so.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I did, in fact, Laugh Out Loud at that "since when? I don't want that!" post.
posted by Sara C. at 1:23 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

tl'dr yet.

I am seriously hoping the next season will have a huge time jump, just for shits and giggles.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:23 PM on June 6, 2013

And by "Burn some bras" I meant "Heavy Metal Records"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:24 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

OMG guys Bobby and Gene are going to be in the KISS army. I can see it now.
posted by Sara C. at 1:25 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I am seriously hoping the next season will have a huge time jump, just for shits and giggles

But they can't because Kiernan
posted by sweetkid at 1:26 PM on June 6, 2013

I expect a full on Roman A'Clef about the ad world published under a pseudonym soon
posted by The Whelk

Oh, man, I will be so mad if we don't get this now. In fact I want to be able to buy it for reals in a bookstore.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:27 PM on June 6, 2013

Pretty sure it's already online "Somewhere".
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2013

If we go by sterotypical 3-child family dynamics it'll go

Sally- Parent-Proxy and "successful/Bossy/put upon", will still treat the others like kids even when they're 40.

Bobby-peacemaker, go-between overlooked middle child who just wants to make everything go smoothly and fix things/people.

Gene - Most Likely to rebel in some strange off the rails way in an attempt to get someone, anyone, to notice him.
posted by The Whelk at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2013

the final shot is a huge bookstore signing for Kenneth E. Cosgrove's best selling satrical novel set in an advertising agency called.... MAD MEN.
posted by The Whelk at 1:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

There is precedent, of course.
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:31 PM on June 6, 2013

Hopefully not.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:31 PM on June 6, 2013

well what if Don really died in Korea and this is all like an Owl Creek/Jacob's Ladder thing.
posted by sweetkid at 1:31 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

What if its all Sally's flashback while tripping balls on Acid at woodstock 94?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:33 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

But they can't because Kiernan

I think they could get away with starting in October of '69 or something. She's kind of leveled off now that she's a teenager.

But, no, they can't decide that now it's 1973.
posted by Sara C. at 1:34 PM on June 6, 2013

Bwha ha ha.

After our Milky Way collapses (pulverizing Earth in an instant), it is replaced by the StarCreme NougatSwirl Galaxy. Spawning ground of an orderly and peaceful Nirvana, the new galaxy is based on the voluntary double helix. This is reflected in everything from the shape of its most populous Yape-Sidara Dual Parallel Solar Systems to the reciprocating orbits of Ya-Si's central planetary twins [...]

posted by George_Spiggott at 1:35 PM on June 6, 2013

On a completely different note, I am playing L.A. Noire right now, and the number of characters played by actors who have at least made an appearance on Mad Men is a little silly. I went to L.A. Noire's IMDB page and randomly clicked on cast members (even for a scene) and Mad Men keeps popping up in their Filmographies. Aside from Detective Ken Cosgrove, Accounts, which is obvious:

-Pete
-Paul Kinsey
-Karen Ericson (the nurse who lived across the hall from Don)
-Jimmy Barrett
-at least two other one off guest spots from what I've spotted so far

(also, Holy Crap, Glen is played by Mathew Weiner's son!)

Okay, pulling out of this IMDB rabbit hole now.
posted by dry white toast at 1:39 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

This asshole thinks this season sucks but it has been a great season actually, discuss.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:40 PM on June 6, 2013

Yea there are a ton of people from Mad Men in LA Noire. Also a kid I grew up with. Who isn't on Mad Men but went in to read once or twice, cause he's like Average White Guy even though he complains only ethnic minorities work in acting in LA.
posted by sweetkid at 1:40 PM on June 6, 2013

This asshole thinks this season sucks but it has been a great season actually, discuss.

Assholes gonna asshole. But hey The Week follows me on Twitter! When I told a coworker that he was like you?

Thanks guy.
posted by sweetkid at 1:43 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete's story is basically "while you're trying to figure out who you want to be, who you actually are is sneakily taking over".
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:46 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

A friend asked me yesterday, "Do you think people change, or do they just become more who they are?"

My instinct was to say people change, but when I stopped and thought about it, I wondered if it wasn't in fact the later. I'm turning it over in my head, and Mad Men is really a useful meditation on the question.
posted by dry white toast at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013

It's downright surreal how engrossed I have been with the show through its entire run, yet how little awareness I have of so many of the characters' names.
posted by herbplarfegan at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Bwha ha ha.

Our version is better

Also shotgunning a bunch of Mad Men episodes while playing L.A Noire leads to some serious meta-fictional confusion (Peggy's mom even shows up once!)

(also I am now reasonably sure I can get around L.A in the late 40s.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

that's kind of weird.
posted by sweetkid at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2013

I'm of the opinion that anyone who thinks this season sucks or that Mad Men has jumped the shark was only ever in it for the clothes.

It's true that recent seasons have been a lot harder to watch than early seasons. The characters are a lot less photogenic. The clothes and sets are ugly. People are on the wrong side of history. There's no "and then we all burned our bras" Forrest Gump type stuff. Characters you like do mean things. Characters you don't like are vindicated. The writers aren't pulling any punches.

It's pretty easy to just say "This sucks now" and stop watching now that Don Draper isn't the man all the women want and all the men want to be.
posted by Sara C. at 1:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [15 favorites]

(also, Peggy is in L.A Noire! With an Okie accent! Also Betty's therapist is the coroner!)
posted by The Whelk at 1:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Mad Men is currently tackling the growing pains all small founder run companies go through and the sea change American business went through in general. Founders are different kinds of people than the employees they hire, both are necessary for a business to to be born and continue to survive. You have the founder types, like Roger and Don, that often take crazy risks and do things in an ad hoc way and you have the types that build the company long term Peggy and Bob Benson.

It is also about how we got from then to now. how did we go from the Mad Men of a few years ago, run as a clubhouse for grown men, to the much more polished and inclusive companies of 20 years later. Professionals like Peggy, Bob Benson and Ted. People who are there to work, not simply escape their families in the suburbs.
posted by Ad hominem at 1:53 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

The Whelk how dare you rub my nose in the fact that Steam doesn't have a Mac-compatible version of L.A. Noire.

Gnashing of teeth
posted by Sara C. at 1:54 PM on June 6, 2013

It's true that recent seasons have been a lot harder to watch than early seasons.

It's funny that you say that, because I actually find the early seasons pretty tedious. So much conformity and trying to make things work. The Draper marriage is so much going through the motions and unhappiness for both Don and Betty. I mean, it's interesting, but in ways you have to commit to.

The show's pace picks up dramatically at the end of Season 3 when they form SCDP. It's night and day to me.
posted by dry white toast at 2:00 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

L.A. Noire isn't much of a game, most of the mechanics are ultimately pointless.You may as well watch a play through on YouTube.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:01 PM on June 6, 2013

Thus missing out on the fun of wandering around 1947 L.A on your own? We have very different priorities sir.
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

(I may or may not have also used it as a shopping guide)
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

L.A. Noire isn't much of a game, most of the mechanics are ultimately pointless.You may as well watch a play through on YouTube.

posted by Ad hominem

Eponysterical!
posted by dry white toast at 2:02 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Thus missing out on the fun of wandering around 1947

That's true, except you have to obey traffic laws. Once you realize none of your choices affects the narrative in any way, it sort of turns into a movie in which you can pick different dialog.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:05 PM on June 6, 2013

dry white toast: A friend asked me yesterday, "Do you think people change, or do they just become more who they are?"

Doesn't this imply fate? In my opinion people change, unless you think things such as "I was suppose to meet you" when you meet someone significant in your life.

I'm only on season 2/heading into season 3 of Mad Men but reading through this thread is so fun. I can't wait to get to season 6.
posted by gucci mane at 2:11 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

When I say "hard to watch" I'm not so much talking about the pacing of the show, which has really picked up. It's also much more dramatic, with higher stakes.

I mean more in the sense of, like, the good people are good, the bad people are villainous, people get what they deserve, things are by and large OK, etc.

The minute Betty Draper slapped Sally across the face for cutting her hair, I think a certain demographic changed the channel and never came back. And I'm fine with that. And extremely happy that AMC is fine with it, too.
posted by Sara C. at 2:11 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

I'm kind of hoping that there is no momentous ending in the cards. Nothing says existential despair quite like life just going on in spite of the national tragedies, heart attacks, suicides, amputations, etc.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:19 PM on June 6, 2013

Doesn't this imply fate?

Not fate so much as the idea that our personalities are formed early in life and don't actually change that much. In the context of Mad Men, it could be said that people don't change so much as their relationships do.
posted by dry white toast at 2:20 PM on June 6, 2013

The minute Betty Draper slapped Sally across the face for cutting her hair

Hey, and that wasn't even the first haircut-related Betty-slap!
posted by Sys Rq at 2:21 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

When you think about it, if one were so inclined, the "Truth/Doubt/Lie" mechanic for investigating crimes would probably translate very well to the office politics of Sterling Cooper etc.

Your move, Rockstar Games.

Considering that my favorite thing to do in that game is obey traffic laws and listen to the King Biscut Flour Hour, I would pay any amount of money to be able to ignore the office politics of an ad agency in 60s era manhattan and just wander around midtown, looking into shop windows and gazing longingly at Old Penn Station ( oh god, could I go on the subway? With the wicker seats? You can take my kidney I only need one.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:25 PM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

The closest you're going to get to Manhattan is Grand Theft Auto IV and it ain't got the Old Penn Station.

Am I right in thinking that there was a scene early in the show where they were marvelling over the awesome New Penn Station plans? I seem to recall steam coming out of my ears.
posted by dry white toast at 2:32 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Even if The Whelk and I do not agree on LA Noire, I agree wholeheartedly we need a free roam game set in 60s New York, could be anything for all I care. If it was a mid 70s, Serprico, French Connection and Panic in Needle Park inspired free roam cop procedural I may never buy another game ever again. Goddamn it rock star, you gave us 2000s New York now do 1976 New York.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:35 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Last episode is Don eating onion rings with his family and a smash to black.

If this happens I swear I'm gonna stab somebody.

I think it will end with Betty giving birth to the baby she conceived with Don at Woodstock.
posted by fuse theorem at 2:36 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

No, it will end with Sally hugely pregnant at Altamont (after having sex with either Stan or Ginsberg at Woodstock), begging a Hell's Angel for a ride to the Haight.

(JK, wanted to see the look on sweetkid's face)
posted by Sara C. at 2:37 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

It ends with Don exorcizing his demons by kicking a horse in the head.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:43 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Something something Wicker Man
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on June 6, 2013

Only The Wicker Man is a car account add campaign, and the women don't burn Don, they just refuse to bed him. And the bees are cancer cells.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

It ends with Don, Peggy and Stan being applauded as they march through the office towards Joan who gives each (except Stan) a medal. Pete hops around and makes a funny beeping noise.

The three champions turn and smile. Cue fanfare.
posted by popcassady at 2:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [7 favorites]

There are no bees in the Wicker Man. I don't know why people keep saying that there are. Summerilse makes apples. APPLES.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

(Oh, Ken's there too. And he's really shiny.)
posted by popcassady at 2:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Weird thing: I'm re-watching the first episode when CGC moves in...when Bert Cooper is reading the letter those kids sent congratulating them, it just randomly ends with "In Closing..." Anyway, when Bert gets to the end of the letter and there isn't an ending, he looks completely terrified. Like he just looked into the abyss and it looked back into him.

Foreshadowing?
posted by dry white toast at 2:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

If only Sally wasn't juuuust a little too young for a The Graduate Ending, cause Drapers always end up marrying too quickly.
posted by The Whelk at 2:54 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

No the ending is mostly everyone leaving or dying or fleeing and then we get a seven minute sequence showing the next crop of ad men and women .....and then cut to five years later and another new crop, with the previous new kids now old wrecks of bosses, and then five years later, and so on and on, fashions and decor changing to fit the period, and everyone keeps having the exact same problems and conflicts, all the way up to the current day ( the name of the agency has changed so many times it's totally unrecognizable ). It's set, of course, to Turn, Turn, Turn.
posted by The Whelk at 2:57 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

So, is there any opinion as to how far forward the final season will time-jump? Will they actually take it into the '70s? Or end it all with man landing on the moon in '69? Or will the end coincide with the Beatles breaking up in 1970?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:58 PM on June 6, 2013

Holy Crap, Glen is played by Mathew Weiner's son!

A friend of mine, who is an actor, was waiting tables when "Glen" and his Dad came in for a bite. She confessed how great she thought Glen was, and what a big fan she was of the show, completely ignoring the dad.

It wasn't until a week later that I broke the news to her who Glen's dad was.
posted by cell divide at 3:00 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

I feel kinda bad for Don after the last episode, especially his encounters at the party. He is beginning to seem like Rabbit Angstrom or Sonny Crawford in Texasville, a middle aged man haunted by his past who is on a slow but steady decline. I don't think he will be Roger as he gets older, I think he will just get mean and resentful.

I hope they fast forward to the 80s I want to see Don snorting coke off the conference room table and wearing one of those Armani suits with the huge shoulders.
posted by Ad hominem at 3:02 PM on June 6, 2013

If Don survives the 60s he'll end up out west, working in politics, and ultimately the Reagan campaign.
posted by The Whelk at 3:05 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

yeah but what's the point of having Americans play Americans if you get all the regional accents wrong?

Remember the episodes of Frasier where Daphne's family appeared? The boyfriend says that he thinks the wild divergence in accents is a subtle nod to how programmes usually get these things very wrong, but I think that's generous. It always spoilt the show for me, particularly as it is so unusual to hear a regional accent that isn't Cockney in a US TV show. Even if it wasn't Jane Leeves' own and was a bit too '60s Rovers Return.

Also, is Ginsberg getting a little schizophrenic or is he just cracking up from the stress? We already know he doesn't touch drugs - I don't even think he drinks or smokes - so he wasn't high in the last episode.
posted by mippy at 3:15 PM on June 6, 2013

How do you think those apple blossoms get pollinated, Bunny? BEES
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:22 PM on June 6, 2013

No the ending is mostly everyone leaving or dying or fleeing and then we get a seven minute sequence showing the next crop of ad men and women .....and then cut to five years later and another new crop, with the previous new kids now old wrecks of bosses, and then five years later, and so on and on

Or you could do this really quickly and simply:

INT. SC&P HALLWAY - DAY

MOIRA leads SANDI (20, badly flat-ironed hair and ill-fitting plaid shift-dress) down the hall towards Peggy's office.

MOIRA: Now this is Creative. It should be organized but it's not, so you'll find both copy and the art department, all mixed together.
(laughing)
Please don't ask me the difference.

MUSIC CUE: The Byrds, "Turn, Turn, Turn"
posted by Sara C. at 3:23 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, is Ginsberg getting a little schizophrenic or is he just cracking up from the stress? We already know he doesn't touch drugs - I don't even think he drinks or smokes - so he wasn't high in the last episode.

Is it possible he's a Scientologist?
posted by Sys Rq at 3:25 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I hope they fast forward to the 80s I want to see Don snorting coke off the conference room table and wearing one of those Armani suits with the huge shoulders.

Replace "Don" with "Sally" and I see another use of the "Turn, Turn, Turn" music cue.
posted by Sara C. at 3:25 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I feel like Scientology wasn't really in New York yet, but what do I know?
posted by Sara C. at 3:25 PM on June 6, 2013

I can picture Sally standing on a balcony all coked up like Jenny from Forrest Gump.
posted by sweetkid at 3:26 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

In all seriousness I'm pretty sure Moira is Joan 2.0. Like, literally and for real, careerwise. Not the way that every hot young secretary who comes through the place is labeled "Joan 2.0".
posted by Sara C. at 3:26 PM on June 6, 2013

Also, is Ginsberg getting a little schizophrenic or is he just cracking up from the stress? We already know he doesn't touch drugs - I don't even think he drinks or smokes - so he wasn't high in the last episode.

I haven't watched the show in a while; is this character really supposed to have been born in a concentration camp?
posted by clockzero at 3:28 PM on June 6, 2013

I'm still holding on my idee fix that Sally just becomes her father.

While I admire your economical eye for screenwriting, that scene would deny us a parade of various period fashions.

I mean go big or go home.
posted by The Whelk at 3:28 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob Benson, Time Lord, selects Meredith as his Companion.
It is, as Ted would say, Very Groovy.
Except in the darkest timeline.
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:28 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think Ginsberg has panic attacks. It reads as schizophrenia to people because panic attacks aren't shown correctly much on tv. Generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder can cause paranoia.
posted by sweetkid at 3:29 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Clockzero, we don't know, there are very few answers for Ginz.
posted by The Whelk at 3:29 PM on June 6, 2013

Bob Benson, Time Lord, selects Meredith as his Companion

The coffee cup is a TARDIS, that's why he carries two, so his constant cup carrying doesn't seem odd.
posted by The Whelk at 3:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also Moira is paired with Culter, who is the evil universe Roger, in the same way that Joan was paired with Roger in the early seasons.
posted by The Whelk at 3:31 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Culter eh

Nice slip
posted by sweetkid at 3:32 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

If he was revealed to be an Anton LeVey style Satanist, would you be surprised IN THE LEAST?
posted by The Whelk at 3:34 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Actually no
posted by sweetkid at 3:35 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm sadly all too familiar with panic attacks, but his 'insubordination' with Gleeson coupled with the ranting about things being beamed into his head were what made me think something was seriously awry. He's always been a bit chippy, but nakedly insulting your boss in such an inappropriate way was strange indeed.
posted by mippy at 3:37 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Cutler looks like he loves nothing more than to stir up some shit and watch it get bad. And when I say watch, I mean creepily peer through a crack in a doorway as though watching his dead colleague's underage daughter fuck an employee who is high on amphetamines. Like that.
posted by Biblio at 3:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Seriously awry? Yes. Possible mental illness? Yes.

I'm leery of calling it "schizophrenia", though.

The "transmissions beamed to my head" thing seemed very specific to me, but then the 60s was weird. It's really hard to tell whether that moment was just extreme anxiety combined with the general weirdness of him and the time, or whether they are trying to broadcast schizophrenia as a specific pathology.

I think it's somewhat off the tone of the show to be that specific about something like that.
posted by Sara C. at 3:40 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

an employee who is high on amphetamines.

That he supplied to said employee.

After a meeting in which he said something to the effect of "I have an idea..."

I mean I guess people genuinely believed in "magic vitamin shots" back then, but that is like the dictionary definition of shit-stirring.
posted by Sara C. at 3:42 PM on June 6, 2013

Yeah Micheal is ...off, there is something going on there but there's not enough to pin it down to one thing and also, maybe it's a perfectly understandable reaction to how BONKERS PANTSONHEADCRAZY his life and worldview has been recently. I'm not comfortable saying its anything other than SOMETHING but it is there.
posted by The Whelk at 3:43 PM on June 6, 2013

Cutler is exactly the kind of person I imagine attending Bohemian Grove, and all those other shadowy organizations and events people like to use to claim that the illuminati exists.
posted by Sara C. at 3:44 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, well, I don't want to diagnose by TV, but paranoia and out of character behaviour point to something serious going on. I was watching it thinking 'but back then they basically locked you up for it, didn't they?' and feeling bad for him. If it were Stan, I'd just assume he was on a comedown.

Oh - forgot to ask this in the last thread - what area is Peggy's building in and what's the area like now? Did it get gentrified? I was reminded of Notting Hill, which was considered a near-slum and a place for 'coloureds' to live in the 60s, but is now essentially a Tory stomping ground.
posted by mippy at 3:45 PM on June 6, 2013

I agree Sara C. The "transmissions" thing is a pop culture meme related to schizophrenia. It's kind of too obvious on a show like this.

Also this show has won recognition from advocacy groups on outstanding treatment of mental health issues so I think they wouldn't jump to hacks cliches.

Ginz is an already odd character whose anxiety is heightened by the genuinely crazy stuff going on in the 60s.

And yea again extreme anxiety is extreme.
posted by sweetkid at 3:45 PM on June 6, 2013

mippy, I live near her area, a brownstone in that area now would be worth literally many millions of dollars, Tina Fey lives nearby, there are nothing but nannies and organic yoga places, it's so far beyond gentrified now it's not even on the planet earth anymore. Like, the area she's in was a dog whistle for " Super rich out of touch liberals" in GOP circles a few years back. It is an insanely nice part of Manhattan.
posted by The Whelk at 3:48 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, well, I don't want to diagnose by TV, but paranoia and out of character behaviour point to something serious going on

Paranoia can be caused by anxiety. Google it.

Panic attacks/disorder is "something serious going on."
posted by sweetkid at 3:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

So basically the Notting Hill of New York, then.
posted by mippy at 3:49 PM on June 6, 2013

And it's the Upper West Side, to give you an example, in the circa 70s era musical A Chorus Line, a character reveals he's been going up to " 72nd street" and the audience is supposed to gasp, cause its all puerto ricans and gangs and drag bars and fags and drugs.

When they staged the revival, they kept that line in, and no one gasped, cause going to 72nd street means you need some organic produce, or a good dentist or a Montessori daycare.

So, yeah pretty much Notting Hill.
posted by The Whelk at 3:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Why does Don seem to end up collapsing in or near swimming pools whenever he tries to hang with groovy people in California? Interesting also that he's much more comfortable there when he can be Dick instead of Don.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

'but back then they basically locked you up for it, didn't they?'

Yeah, but back then "they" had very different ideas about the type of person who was likely to be schizophrenic, and diagnoses were much less scientific. Ginsberg being a white guy in a professional job makes it much less likely that that would happen.

Re Peggy's neighborhood, yes, the Upper West Side is incredibly fancy now. Like, beyond gentrified. It's one of the most expensive neighborhoods in New York, and mostly full of wealthy families. I think people there tend to be more liberal politically (the UWS was also long associated with leftist politics and academia), but yes, there is a very moneyed, NIMBY, "I got mine so fuck you" outlook with the kind of people who stereotypically live there now.

In fact, the kind of people who live on the UWS now are basically exactly Peggy.

If you're curious about the area, it's the setting of The Panic In Needle Park, a film about tragic young heroin addicts. These would be the sorts of people stabbing Abe and throwing bricks through the window.
posted by Sara C. at 3:51 PM on June 6, 2013

sweetkid - I have bipolar affective disorder, please don't 'educate' me on the seriousness or otherwise of panic attacks, paranoia and hearing of voices. I'm used to TV painting these things with a broad brush - admittedly I'm watching Desperate Housewives at the moment as well - so it was the conclusion I drew.
posted by mippy at 3:51 PM on June 6, 2013

I'm not educating you I'm just responding to your comments like any old person.
posted by sweetkid at 3:53 PM on June 6, 2013

Sara C - yes, that is true. The idea that those with mental illnesses/conditions were not productive members of society.
posted by mippy at 3:54 PM on June 6, 2013

I think it's still that way regrettably
posted by sweetkid at 3:57 PM on June 6, 2013

If you're curious about the area, it's the setting of The Panic In Needle Park, a film about tragic young heroin addicts.

Ah, I've had that in my Netflix queue for like forever. Now think I might get around to watching it finally.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:57 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I used to follow the Notes From The Breakroom blog on the Guardian which helpfully explained all the historical/social detail that a US audience would automatically know, but then they changed the writer and the new one was terrible, so I stopped following.

Watching Good Night and Good Luck earlier in the week made me realise I know not very much about McCarthyism (when Abe cheered the McCarthy for President thing I automatically thought 'hey wait a second, he's practically a Marxist, why does he like Joe McCarthy?') and I am planning to do some reading up on Nixon before we watch All The President's Men.
posted by mippy at 4:01 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

In the 60s in the US, there was a specific association between schizophrenia and African-American men, especially African-American men who had been active in the Civil Rights Movement.

I don't know how stringent that assumption was and whether it would be possible for someone like Ginsberg to end up with that diagnosis, and obviously that has nothing to do with whether we, the viewers, are supposed to see him as being schizophrenic, but it's unlikely that Ginsberg is going to be thrown into the loony bin anytime soon.

My fears for Ginsberg are more along the lines of him joining a cult or getting violent. There's a lot that reminds me of Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver, or of the types of people who joined groups like the Weathermen.

But on the other hand, it was a deeply paranoid time. Ginsberg is not the first character this season where I couldn't tell whether they were mentally ill or just in a really fucked up place because of the times, and the culture, and the politics.
posted by Sara C. at 4:03 PM on June 6, 2013

The inclusion of Jim Cutler (Aaron Echolls) in the main crew this season is obviously meant to scare the wits out of us. It's just like having Ed Baxter played by Ray Wise (Leland Palmer).

I also hope Ginsberg isn't suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, but I wouldn't mind or be surprised if he got mis-diagnosed with it. Like, he goes in and says, "Doc, I'm going crazy! The other day I had to give a presentation, and all of a sudden I panicked and thought someone was beaming transmissions to my head!" Then the doctor says, "Yes, son. You are crazy." And locks him up forever. And then everyone watching has to look at each other and go, "SIXTIES!"

Finally, the series obviously has to end with Joan killing Pete. And Harry. And maybe Roger. And possibly even Don. But definitely, at a minimum, Pete.
posted by brina at 4:03 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I really want Paul Kinsey to come back. His return last season actually made me gasp out loud. I remember his shallow involvement in causes - I'm convinced that he only got a black girlfriend to appear the radical beatnik - and I wonder what the escalating situation in Vietnam has made of him.
posted by mippy at 4:05 PM on June 6, 2013

when Abe cheered the McCarthy for President thing I automatically thought 'hey wait a second, he's practically a Marxist, why does he like Joe McCarthy?

That's Eugene McCarthy, a liberal Democrat. He was basically like if Dennis Kucinich actually stood a chance of ever winning a single primary.

That said, Eugene McCarthy was by no means in any way communist. But he was outspoken against the war, which was a huge deal.
posted by Sara C. at 4:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I wonder what the escalating situation in Vietnam has made of him.

I don't know, but he was in California just in time for the Summer Of Love.
posted by Sara C. at 4:07 PM on June 6, 2013

The series ends with a brand new cigarette causing widespread zombieism and the cast forced to defend the offices.

I think we outlined this a while back, Joan with a rifle and all. THE WALKING MAD MEN.
posted by The Whelk at 4:07 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

And all the zombies are Don.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:09 PM on June 6, 2013

That's Eugene McCarthy, a liberal Democrat.

Indeed. Joe McCarthy (the McCarthyism guy) had been dead over a decade at that point.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2013

Yeah, I looked it up, then felt very dumb indeed.

I don't get this with Murphy Brown, though I was alive during the Dan Quayle potatoe thing so the political references don't throw me too much. It seems like an American Drop The Dead Donkey, almost.
posted by mippy at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2013

Everyone wants Don to fail. But what if he succeeds? Being a CEO of an interesting company would work well for him, essentially being an icon like Conrad Hilton. He quits drinking and smoking, starts jogging, moves to Riverside, settles into marriage with Megan or someone more age appropriate. He does with other companies what he used to do with women and cars. His history is mostly subsumed by the machine. Every now and then he comes up for air, in a cab downtown or at an Opera, seeing the grey dawn of war that birthed him. The cities crass filth disgusts him though, and year after year he remembers less why he ever cared enough to want to make people desire something beautiful, instead of just celebrate the shining, Conservative lie that the 50s were a golden age of purity and health. His soul almost utterly extinguished, he lives the rest of his life untouchable by everyone except for one person -- his daughter the painter, who can still, on her rare visits to the country, make him angry or happy enough to feel like Dick again.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:15 PM on June 6, 2013 [9 favorites]

Megan helps Sally break into acting and she's snapped up to play Marcia on the Brady Bunch
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:16 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

I'm on a train, why?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:20 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Don turns 42 in 1968. What was the life expectancy in the 1960s of a heavy smoker/heavy drinker 42 year old male?
posted by Rhomboid at 4:29 PM on June 6, 2013

I am being a jerk and not reading this thread yet because I am two episodes behind right now, but the "Everyone Don slept with in Season 4" link reminded me of how much I liked Stephanie (whom he did not sleep with, so it was totally cheating to include her in the montage) and how I really wish they would bring her back somehow and show us what the hell she's up to in 1968.
posted by naoko at 4:29 PM on June 6, 2013

How Mad Men ends. Lt. Dick Whitman says "Computer, end program."
posted by drezdn at 4:34 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

...and it will once again be shot in New York when Fallon takes over next year.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:45 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

You guys someone finally made a Mad X-Men thing.
No Ginsneto yet, though.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:50 PM on June 6, 2013

Soaps are still shot here
posted by sweetkid at 4:50 PM on June 6, 2013

Sara C.: "I think part of the problem is that "Take Another Little Piece Of My Heart" was in one of those SONGS OF THE SIXTIES compilation commercials back in the mid 90s."

That's one of the things I liked so much about The Americans. The show is set in the 80's, but they didn't use a single obvious 80's hit. I mean, the show starts with Fleetwood Mac's Tusk.
posted by gertzedek at 4:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

(Unless you people think Tusk is an obvious 80s song, in which case I apologize)
posted by gertzedek at 4:53 PM on June 6, 2013

drezdn: "How Mad Men ends. Lt. Dick Whitman says "Computer, end program.""

Bob Benson reveals himself as Q, and Don jumps back and forth in time, trying to figure out the cause of the temporal anomaly.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:57 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

There. Are. Four. Cigarette Lighters.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:59 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

This thread is already 390 comments? Oh, boy...
posted by crossoverman at 4:59 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh, boy...

Sam leaps into Don.

AL: Hurry. Megan's on the balcony.
posted by popcassady at 5:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Zou Pushyou Pushyou!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:09 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm surprised to learn (from Wikipedia, but still) that soap operas really were shot in New York back then. Possibly still being live had a lot to do with it, as you don't have to get up nearly so early.

I don't think soaps were live in the late 60s. Certainly the set they've showed Megan working on doesn't look like a live shoot.

Both Guiding Light and As The World Turns shot in New York until they ended their runs just a few years ago.

My understanding of soaps shooting in New York is that it had to do with their roots in radio and the fact that a lot of them are VERY long running -- if you start production in New York in the 40s, and your show is still on in '68, why pay to move everyone to Los Angeles? It was excruciatingly expensive to do things like that back then, unlike today when travel expenses are a tiny fraction of the cost of production.

I also think there were technical reasons to have soaps shooting in New York, possibly related to the fact that they air daily and not weekly. And that, back then, everything was actual physical media, not something you could just DropBox over to the New York office. The networks were all headquartered in New York then, too.
posted by Sara C. at 5:28 PM on June 6, 2013

I've had this thread in the back of my mind today while working on other things, and suddenly hits me:

Ken and Trudy.

Anybody with me?
posted by Space Kitty at 5:34 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

How would Ken and Trudy ever even see each other. Doesn't Ken live in Queens, when he's not in Detroit?

Wait, we're talking about them having an affair, right?
posted by Sara C. at 5:37 PM on June 6, 2013

No, he means: are they the same person?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

Abe and Trudy.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Just what IS Trudy doing up there all by herself?
posted by The Whelk at 5:39 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I always thought that Don and Joan are the same person, Fight Club style.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:39 PM on June 6, 2013

I just like them and think they would be good together, geography nonwithstanding.
posted by Space Kitty at 5:39 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Trudy/Stephanine unhappy housewife slash shipping, it is now.
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on June 6, 2013

It bothers me that I have no memory of this Stephanie person, at all.
posted by Sara C. at 5:41 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

BTW I was looking up something about Pete earlier and google autocompleted to "PETE CAMPBELL DON DRAPER SLASHFIC"

just sayin
posted by Sara C. at 5:41 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

That would just give Pete another thing about Don to be jealous of.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:43 PM on June 6, 2013

Ken has a very nice charming wife called...uh okay I don't remember her name but she played Alex Mack back in the day.

It's okay, Harry's wife was always more of a theoretical construct.

I...don't want to read Don/Pete fic.
posted by The Whelk at 5:43 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peter Cambell, A Powerbottom's Powerbottom.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:44 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

I was looking up something about Pete earlier and google autocompleted to "PETE CAMPBELL DON DRAPER SLASHFIC"

From "PETE CAMPBELL DON DRAPER SLASHFI"?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:45 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'd rather read Pete/Joan fic, which given how repulsive I find that that pairing is saying something.

I mean at least there we're in the realm of realisticish hate sex.
posted by The Whelk at 5:46 PM on June 6, 2013

WHAT JENNIFER IS ALEX MACK
posted by Sara C. at 5:47 PM on June 6, 2013

From "PETE CAMPBELL DON DRAPER SLASHFI"?

No, actually from "pete campbe..." which was AMAZING and almost made me want to read slash for the first time in my life just to see what all the google fuss was about.
posted by Sara C. at 5:48 PM on June 6, 2013

Don't. Start. There.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

Bob Benson reveals himself as Q, and Don jumps back and forth in time, trying to figure out the cause of the temporal anomaly.

Excuse me, I have some Don Draper/Picard slash to write now..
posted by ApathyGirl at 5:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

So I'm reading five seasons worth of Guardian recaps because mippy said that they exist and because I'd love to know what Brits make of 60s American culture, and it turns out that everybody was always beanplating about foreshadowed death. (Read the "notes" section at the bottom. The first bullet point is about whether Don's doctor's appointment is supposed to be ominous or what.)
posted by Sara C. at 5:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don Draper visits the Enterprise as ambassador of America in the 1960s and Counselor Troi immediately falls in love with him.

They fingerbang in Ten Forward while Will Riker is hitting on some dumb ensign with an embarrassing hairdo.
posted by Sara C. at 5:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's...a challenge in a jumpsuit.
posted by The Whelk at 5:58 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I can't believe I forgot Ken's wife.
posted by Space Kitty at 6:00 PM on June 6, 2013

She wore that insane turquoise thing, duh.
posted by Sara C. at 6:02 PM on June 6, 2013

Now if TOS Enterprise picked up Don Draper, he'd fit right in.

Wait, I may have to ...gather some notes here....
posted by The Whelk at 6:03 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Don Draper would actually fit in well in that TNG episode where they find the people who were cryogenically frozen in the 80s. All three of the 20th century folks in that episode are such Mad Men characters.
posted by Sara C. at 6:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I said it before, there is very very little decent Mad Men fic.

You have your TNG crossover fic prompt people, make it so.
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 PM on June 6, 2013

I love Stan. Stan Loves Peggy.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 6:15 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Whoa that link gave me the have your cake and eat it to idea.

Bob Benson, Friend and semi beard to Joan and seducer of Micheal Ginsberg.

The popcorn would eat itself.
posted by The Whelk at 6:27 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

What do you think it's like to wear a bright yellow suit and sit at your desk coming up with margarine pitches all day?
posted by Sara C. at 6:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

It means you take a smoke break in Madison park and have lunch with me at that odd Americana theme place near the Flatiron and bitch about how no one listens to you or gives you any decent work. uh..l He said, with no knowledge of advertising.
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Sometimes people in my office wear their client's colors by accident and we laugh at them.
posted by sweetkid at 6:49 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Ken's wife is Cynthia. She's his life, his real life.
posted by purpleclover at 6:53 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

yea Cynthia is Alex Mack not Jennifer. But we've seen Jennifer.
posted by sweetkid at 6:54 PM on June 6, 2013

We saw Cynthia at the party when Don was very masculine and fixed things in an awful coat.
posted by The Whelk at 7:05 PM on June 6, 2013

also like Sara C I don't remember Stephanie.
posted by sweetkid at 7:08 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

You mean the Pete Is Emasculated party?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

Don knows how to work with his hands and fix things because he grew up on a farm. I did myself, and that's typical of farm people. There is a lot of fixing and making of things to be done, and there's no money to hire people to do it, so you learn to do it yourself. Pete, of course, grew up in a wealthy home where they would just have called a plumber or whatever kind of tradesman was needed to deal with stuff like that, so he doesn't have such skills. I love how the characterization is so complete, even to little things like that.
posted by orange swan at 7:23 PM on June 6, 2013

I think one of the reasons both men and women respond to Don in the way they do is that he has that layer of solid competence underneath the charm. He actually knows how to do something, unlike many of the men he encounters. (Except Ken, who can dance.). This makes him more attractive to women, of course, and intimidates other men. Just part of the Don Draper mystique.
posted by Biblio at 7:33 PM on June 6, 2013

It's the confidence. It's always the confidence.
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on June 6, 2013

or at least an outward expression of such.
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Stephanie was Anna's niece, the college student. She is the one who picks up the phone when Don finally calls back in "The Suitcase."
posted by Sweetie Darling at 7:40 PM on June 6, 2013

yea watching the clip I figured that out. I just never thought about her name. Cool.
posted by sweetkid at 7:42 PM on June 6, 2013

Oh. Based on context I was expecting someone Don slept with/almost slept with/was maybe going to sleep with.
posted by Sara C. at 7:43 PM on June 6, 2013

yea they got nowhere near. He tried and she was like haha no.
posted by sweetkid at 7:44 PM on June 6, 2013

wow people are super into this whole mad man thing
posted by threeants at 8:09 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

yea dudes it's just a tv show
posted by sweetkid at 8:19 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm pretty sure Weiner has said it ends with Don Draper cradling a bottle of whiskey and a Kodak Carousel singing, "You Make Me Feel Like A Natural Woman".
posted by crossoverman at 8:39 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Carole King or GTFO
posted by shakespeherian at 8:39 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

You're so vain, you probably think this show is about you.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

omg that's it
posted by sweetkid at 8:43 PM on June 6, 2013

Some Joni Mitchell would be great on the show. I think her stuff has aged better than King's or Simon's, or Joplin even, speaking of women musicians.
posted by sweetkid at 8:45 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don is breaking like the waves at Malibu.
posted by The Whelk at 8:46 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Well yes Blue is the greatest album of its generation but that's hardly fair.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:47 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

so undderrated though.
posted by sweetkid at 8:49 PM on June 6, 2013

it ends with Don Draper cradling a bottle of whiskey and a Kodak Carousel singing, "You Make Me Feel Like A Natural Woman".

It ends with Peggy and Joan in a pitch meeting. Peggy says, "You've come a long way." Joan adds, "No, 'You've come a long way, baby.'"

FIN
posted by Sara C. at 8:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [4 favorites]

Grossss
posted by sweetkid at 8:50 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

I love saying advertising cliches because it makes sweetkid die a little inside.
posted by Sara C. at 8:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

why so mean I got nothin but love for ya sister
posted by sweetkid at 8:51 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Someone lies on the floor of the conference room as the camera tilts and "Brain Damage" starts to play. The ripper walks the halls of SC&P. So much blood.
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Better:

It ends with Peggy in a darkened movie theater. An attractive younger guy is sitting next to her. There is a trench coat spread over both their laps.

The film is Nine To Five.

FADE OUT TO STRAINS OF DOLLY PARTON AND TYPEWRITERS CLICKING
posted by Sara C. at 8:52 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

oh but can it say FIN on the screen after the finale? That would be awesome.

Or if it was in the same font as Woody Allen title sequences and jazz plays because 70s!
posted by sweetkid at 8:53 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

The last episode is just the first episode of Growing Pains.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:54 PM on June 6, 2013 [10 favorites]

Wait is Peggy too old to be Sigourney Weaver's character in Working Girl? I think she's like ten years too old.
posted by sweetkid at 8:54 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Cut to an older Sally Draper on an old typewriter and wearing a sweater, we see her smiling as she finishes, a close up on the page she's typing out

"and truly, all of them, my father, my uncles, my mother and friends where all ...MAD MEN."

She pulls it off the typewriter and throws it into the air, freeze frame and production logo.
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on June 6, 2013 [13 favorites]

After Don kills everyone, we cut to a doctor's office where Don is restrained in another room, the doctor explains to the survivors that sometimes men, when in conflict, go mad, and never really recover, something to do with childhood and the mother, and they should put all this mad men stuff behind them- then cut to a swamp, as the car containing the money is dragged out of the muck over the end titles and fanfare.
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

The last episode is just the first episode of Growing Pains.

No, no, it would pretty much have to be Bosom Buddies.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:59 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

No no more Hankses on this show
posted by sweetkid at 9:00 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

It ends with Peggy and Joan in a pitch meeting. Peggy says, "You've come a long way." Joan adds, ~~"No, 'You've come a long way, baby.'"~~ "Where's the beef?"

FTFY.
posted by crossoverman at 9:01 PM on June 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

you should see the look on my face while I am reading these last few hacky dream endings
posted by sweetkid at 9:03 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sally, the last survivor of the SC&P massacre by virtue of hiding in the ceiling tiles, comes down into a room with a radio, not knowing with the killer she once called friend is still there. She scrawls a message onto the blackboard in Creative with her nails:

"THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN HEAD AND HANDS MUST BE THE HEART!"
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Don crashes Ted's plane, killing them both, Roger quips ""Oh, no! It wasn't the airplanes. It was Bourbon killed the Beast.", cue end titles.
posted by The Whelk at 9:06 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Wow, a new MM FPP and it's zero to 463 in 12 hours!

I have a question I was reminded of by George_Spiggott's comment
Why does Don seem to end up collapsing in or near swimming pools whenever he tries to hang with groovy people in California?

I think it was in the Esquire recap that the writer opined that Don had tried to kill himself by jumping in the pool. For some reason this possibility hadn't even crossed my mind. I guess I thought he'd stumbled into the pool in a boozy daze or something. But I guess it could have been attempted suicide. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts?
posted by torticat at 9:09 PM on June 6, 2013

No, I think it was an accident.
posted by sweetkid at 9:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don hears the shower running. He looks in and sees Lane Pryce soaping up. Seasons 6 & 7 were all a dream.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:10 PM on June 6, 2013 [6 favorites]

LET'S BURN RUBBER BABY
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on June 6, 2013

Lane Pryce soaping up

Stupid Sexy Lane Pryce
posted by sweetkid at 9:12 PM on June 6, 2013 [8 favorites]

Only when he punched Pete, but it was a long-lasting moment.
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on June 6, 2013

Bob Benson smashes his head into the bathroom mirror, looking back at him is the bloodied demonic face of Don Draper, with long matted grey hair.

Bob turns toward the camera cackling, "How's Betty? How's Betty? How's Betty?"
posted by crossoverman at 9:13 PM on June 6, 2013 [11 favorites]

Sorry I can't get a picture of Lane Pryce in the shower with watch and glasses on but otherwise nekkid (bare butt) out of my head.

Wait why am I sorry it should be Chrysostom who is sorry.

I gotta sleep soon WTF
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

I REGRET NOTHING
posted by Chrysostom at 9:17 PM on June 6, 2013

If we go with the Lane Pryce ending, I propose we recast with Benedict Cumberbatch.

(I mean no offense, Jared Harris, but I WAS PROMISED BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH IN THE SHOWER)
posted by Sara C. at 9:19 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

PEGGY WAKES UP IN THE HOSPITAL, THIS WHOLE THING HAS BEEN HER TWILIGHT BIRTH DREAM

She goes through haunted by her powers of precognition and ability to see the future.
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

We cut to Sally Draper, now 18, about to get married. Everybody is happy. All has been resolved.

And then the band starts to play "The Rains of Castamere."
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 9:29 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

whaat Sally Draper you are going to college young lady. Marriage at 18? No.
posted by sweetkid at 9:30 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

Nice girls* don't marry until they're IN college, so says Our Benevolent Filmstrip Overlords

*Trashy, stupid girls get married so they can HAVE SEX is the subtext in these things.
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's been another long day. At home, we watch from behind as Don leans over the bathroom sink, water pouring down the drain, steam fogging the mirror. He wets a washcloth, rubs his eyes, shuts off the mirror. After a long beat, Don reaches over, picks up a hand towel, and wipes the steam from the mirror. The camera pans around him as he stares deep into his own eyes, and we see: Alfred E. Newman.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:34 PM on June 6, 2013 [1 favorite]

No, actually from "pete campbe..." which was AMAZING and almost made me want to read slash for the first time in my life just to see what all the google fuss was about.

Are you logged into gmail or google plus or something? Because there is some degree of personalization or fuzzy logic or categorization going on there. I don't get anything like that in autocomplete or suggestions, just the more obvious "pete cambell actor", "pete campbell quotes" and more mysteriously "pete campbell hairline". My hairline is JUST FINE thank you I have never googled anything that might suggest otherwise THANK YOU VERY MUCH GOOGLE.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:13 PM on June 6, 2013

just admit you want hot sexy pete hairline stories
posted by The Whelk at 10:20 PM on June 6, 2013 [3 favorites]

George_Spiggott - maybe? I have a whole Twitter persona where I tweet about Star Trek and fandoms and such, so it's possible that The Googles know I'm a fangirl in some capacity. Though in general I'm not a fanfic person at all, and my actual gmail account is mostly for work stuff. I do not use G+.

My new hobby is typing "Pete Campbell" and random letters into google and seeing what it autocompletes with. I don't get anything normal like "Pete Campbell Quotes". I get "Pete Campbell Doesn't Smoke", "Pete Campbell Hairline", "Pete Campbell Chip And Dip", etc. Maybe the internet just knows I love Mad Men a lot.
posted by Sara C. at 10:30 PM on June 6, 2013

Interesting. I just tried typing "Pete Campbell Chip And Dip" and for some reason it autocompleted to "Pete Campbell Rifle"
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:33 PM on June 6, 2013 [2 favorites]

Five hundred comments in a midweek MM thread AFTER the hardcore denizens already threw down a few hundred on this week's episode? Sarah Palin, look out.
posted by mwhybark at 10:50 PM on June 6, 2013

"Pete Campbell C" gets me "Pete Campbell Christ on a Cracker" which delights me. (In autocomplete )
posted by Biblio at 4:15 AM on June 7, 2013 [6 favorites]

>I can't believe I forgot Ken's wife.

>>We saw Cynthia at the party when Don was very masculine and fixed things in an awful coat.

IIRC, Megan and Don couldn't remember Cynthia's name at that party.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:33 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

For some reason this possibility hadn't even crossed my mind. I guess I thought he'd stumbled into the pool in a boozy daze or something. But I guess it could have been attempted suicide. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts?

My wife's convinced it was a suicide attempt. I'm 50-50.
posted by COBRA! at 5:42 AM on June 7, 2013

PEGGY WAKES UP IN THE HOSPITAL, THIS WHOLE THING HAS BEEN HER TWILIGHT BIRTH DREAM

She goes through haunted by her powers of precognition and ability to see the future.

Then she decides to raise the baby, and his first words are "Hell's bells, Mommy!"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:50 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]

For some reason this possibility hadn't even crossed my mind. I guess I thought he'd stumbled into the pool in a boozy daze or something. But I guess it could have been attempted suicide. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts?

Don collapsed in the previous episode. Heart problem?
posted by popcassady at 5:57 AM on June 7, 2013

The problem with his heart is probably that it's extra buoyant. 'Cause, like, drowning people don't float, right?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:18 AM on June 7, 2013

One thing that struck me on the linked clip above where Roger and Don are making Hitler jokes - when is the last time we saw Don smiling like that? Just affably joking around a bit?
posted by Chrysostom at 6:48 AM on June 7, 2013

just admit you want hot sexy pete hairline stories

So I stumbled on the "Pete and Trudy dance the Charleston" clip from S3 just now, and holy cats is it bizarre to think that was him just five years ago whereas no one else seems to have aged.

also single Ken and single Henryfrancis are weird memories
posted by psoas at 7:22 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

Stan Loves Peggy.

I die.
posted by psoas at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2013

All those Mad Men theories have now been addressed by Jessica Paré, who's obviously a ghost
posted by rewil at 9:31 AM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

the final episode ends with Sal waking up in bed with Ken, saying he just had the worst dream.
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 AM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]

Sal in bed with BERT.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:06 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don collapsed in the previous episode. Heart problem?

Crash from the speed they doped him up with at work, and not sleeping for two days.

But, pondering the party scene, I'm leaning more towards suicide attempt. The vision of Dinkins is what pushed me over the edge.
posted by dry white toast at 10:07 AM on June 7, 2013

Ooof, sorry, really unintentional pun there!
posted by dry white toast at 10:08 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

But, pondering the party scene, I'm leaning more towards suicide attempt. The vision of Dinkins is what pushed me over the edge.

Why? I don't think the show would give us a Don Draper suicide attempt without leading up to it with actual narrative and not just imagery (hotel ad, Dinkins).
posted by sweetkid at 10:20 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I feel like it would be a Big Deal and not at all ambiguous if Don were to ever attempt suicide.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:29 AM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

I definitely don't think it was a suicide attempt. I think it was an addled attempt at a swim.
posted by purpleclover at 11:04 AM on June 7, 2013

Really? I feel like Don is trying to kill himself every day, but some days, he just puts a little more effort into it. Or maybe I'm projecting.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:04 AM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]

The line between self-destructive behavior and an outright suicide attempt is arguably pretty blurry, but I agree that so far Don has just been pushing the envelope with the former.
posted by Superplin at 11:57 AM on June 7, 2013

Yea this. He's self destructive but not suicidal.
posted by sweetkid at 12:00 PM on June 7, 2013

I think it was an addled attempt at a swim.

Yea, also Megan told him he always feels better in the pool. So he was prob feeling out of it, hallucinated her, freaked out and remembered that line.

I think it's interesting that Don cannonballing into the pool in Tomorrowland was our first sign of his commitment/interest to Megan (in my mind, I have a theory about this I've never seen anywhere else).
posted by sweetkid at 12:50 PM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

Go on...
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:56 PM on June 7, 2013

I think if the pool thing were a genuine suicide attempt and not "suicide by living recklessly" or some kind of bizarre approach to self-medicating, the writers probably wouldn't have couched it in drug imagery. Like, if Don is going to try to kill himself, why show him smoking a relatively innocuous variant on marijuana in a groovy setting beforehand? It's not a very elegant way to get the point across.

That said, yeah, of course it could be a subconscious attempt.

(Anyone who really thinks that smoking hash might drive someone to attempt suicide needs to, I don't know, be less square in general I guess.)
posted by Sara C. at 12:58 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

oooh! OK! This is sort of more off the cuff and would be better if I weren't at work and could rewatch quick.

So Don has been really depressed all Season 4 because of Betty and general life shambles. It's the darkest he's ever been. So he goes with Megan and the kids to California, and when they get there the kids are stripping off their clothes with bathing suits underneath (love that detail) and he's kind of like, no no no I'm going inside. So he goes inside and we get a shot of him sitting in his dress clothes, alone, at the edge of the bed. It's (As I recall) just a quiet shot of him sitting there.

Then the next thing we see is him cannonballing into the pool. From that moment on, at least until toward the end of Season 5, he's what we started calling Happy Don. Rushed into marriage with Megan, but didn't cheat, sure he had his weird moods but generally speaking it seemed like a recommitment to life that he hadn't shown all season.

I think when he was sitting there on that bed he decided to make an abrupt, impulsive decision about how life was going to be going forward - he was leaving brooding Don behind and being happy Don, just like he left Dick Whitman behind to become Don, just like he can always just summon up a change in mood and behavior because he wants to.
posted by sweetkid at 1:03 PM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

But what about now? What changed between mid season 5 and now to bring him spiralling down toward rock bottom again?

Was it Jaguar?

Was it the woman in the yellow dress?

Was it something unseen that happened between Season 5 and Season 6?

Was it Sylvia?
posted by Sara C. at 1:14 PM on June 7, 2013

Wasn't it realizing he couldn't tie every bit of happiness to Megan, because she's her own person with her own goals, so he just decided to resent her instead?

Who is the woman in the yellow dress? The murder fantasy?
posted by sweetkid at 1:16 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

Was it Sylvia?

It was the goat.
posted by sweetkid at 1:17 PM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]

Yes, the murder fantasy.

In yellow.

Which is a color I don't know that we saw a lot of last season, but man is it everywhere this season.
posted by Sara C. at 1:19 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's all of those things and none of those things. It's entropy. Don wears a lot of masks, but eventually, he's always just the overwhelmed kid in the whorehouse, reenacting the same old patterns.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:20 PM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think I'm rewatching the murder fantasy episode from last season tonight.
posted by Sara C. at 1:23 PM on June 7, 2013

The girl in the yellow dress is auditioning to be the margarine mascot.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:24 PM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]

Was it Sylvia?

It was the goat.

I think I love you.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:38 PM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

Man this thread has been really validating for me.
posted by sweetkid at 1:39 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

You and Edward Albee.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:42 PM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

...and to Edward Appleby. A friend of a friend.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:53 PM on June 7, 2013

But mostly me.
posted by sweetkid at 1:54 PM on June 7, 2013

I wanna write a play called Edward Applebees set in a chain resteraunt.
posted by The Whelk at 2:01 PM on June 7, 2013 [4 favorites]

Heaven and Hell and Happy Hour
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:08 PM on June 7, 2013

Who's Afraid of Tortilla Soup?
posted by shakespeherian at 2:09 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

I wanna write a play called Edward Applebees set in a chain resteraunt.

It is a damn shame I don't still live in New York. I could probably make this happen.
posted by Sara C. at 2:16 PM on June 7, 2013

I agree damn shame

No I mean spread your wings is what I mean
posted by sweetkid at 2:41 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

The Whelk: "I wanna write a play called Edward Applebees set in a chain resteraunt."

He's got knives, forks, and spoons for hands, right?
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:22 PM on June 7, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sporks.
posted by Chrysostom at 4:36 PM on June 7, 2013

I don't want this thread to end.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:37 PM on June 7, 2013

I don't want to close my eyes

I don't want to fall asleep

Cause I'll miss this thread

And I don't want to miss a thing.
posted by The Whelk at 4:51 PM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]

Matthew Weiner Addresses Those Bob Benson Conspiracy Theories, Mark Lisanti, Grantland, 07 June 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 6:39 PM on June 7, 2013

A few threads ago, I wondered why we mostly were referring to characters by their first names except for Ginsberg. The consensus was that how he was mostly referred to by the other characters. In the first post-merger episode Peggy introduces him as Ginsberg, so that seem settled enough.

Given his breakdown this week with him yelling "Stop calling me Michael" at Bob I was curious to where the Michael/Ginsberg split began so I went back to season five and jumped around to scenes with him (probably missing other characters referencing him when he is off screen, unfortunately). Here's the breakdown by episode:

TEA LEAVES: He introduces himself to Peggy enthusiastically as MICHAEL Ginsberg. Later Don says "Pleasure to meet you Michael". Immediately after he is hired Peggy refers to him as "Mr. Ginsberg" to Roger.

MYSTERY DATE: Stan calls him "Ginsberg", Peggy calls "Michael" as he leaves in disgust at their reaction to the nurse photos.

FAR AWAY PLACES: Peggy meets his dad in the office and says to him "I work with Ginsberg". This is the episode with the "from Mars" speech which is well worth watching again if you haven't seen it in a while.

DARK SHADOWS: Roger calls him "Michael" twice while meeting with him to get him to come up with a pitch to Manischewitz. (The dialog in this scene simply crackles).

Then in last week's episode Stan calls him "Ginzo" and of course Bob calls him Michael, twice.

Some other tidbits:

Any blue/green color fans should take a look at Far Away Places where Peggy is looking for something in her desk drawer. There is a box of Kodak slide mounts with blue/green rectangles up against each other that mirror the blue/green panels in Pete's city apartment.

Ginsberg likes to quote ominous-sounding literature. Last week we had "Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds" and previously he said of his work on the Snoball campaign "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

For stabbing enthusiasts, Ginsberg says this exact line in Lady Lazarus (in reference to the not-Beatles music): "It's stabbing me in the fucking heart."
posted by mikepop at 6:42 PM on June 7, 2013 [6 favorites]

For the record and with my apologies, I wrote the comment before I really read the article, and the actual credit should go to Tim Molloy at The Wrap.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:42 PM on June 7, 2013

Potomac Avenue: I keep expecting Hamlin to get fired since he's such a well known actor. It's crazy that he got his start playing in Hercules in 1969.

Er - are you sure you're not thinking of the 1981 movie Clash of the Titans, in which he played Perseus? Because Harry Hamlin was 16 years old in 1969.
posted by tzikeh at 7:03 PM on June 7, 2013

Be still and know that I am Bob Benson.
James Wolk reveals his favorite Bob Benson theory.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on June 7, 2013 [2 favorites]

"Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds" and previously he said of his work on the Snoball campaign "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

My only takeaway here is that somebody on the Mad Men writing staff is a huge fan of Civilization IV.

This totally vindicates the reference to "reticulating splines" in my current project.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 PM on June 7, 2013 [3 favorites]

My thinking about the pool scene was based on two things:

1) Dinkins saying to him "you should see yourself" or words to that effect when Don asks him why he didn't get his arm back as a ghost after he died

2) My experience with alcoholics is that they are slowly committing suicide (trying to escape some kind of pain). So I was wondering if now that a different drug was calling the shots for a few minutes, his subconscious decided to make a break for it essentially.

And yes, I did think of it as a subconscious attempt. But even if I'm right, I don't think it would be addressed all Special Episode-like. It's just another thing that Never Happened.
posted by dry white toast at 5:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, they call him Ginsberg to make it clear that he's different because he's Jewish. Tho I think Stan does it as an affectionate nickname.

Growing up in this period, Weiner would have been VERY aware of the subtle ways in which Jews were othered.
posted by dry white toast at 5:10 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]

You're probably right, dwt, but Don is also referred to as Draper quite often. And Cooper is almost never called Bert. In fact, the only people who are never referred to by their last names only are the women. You don't hear Joan called Holloway or Harris (although Lane called her Mrs. Harris), nor Peggy called Olson.
posted by donajo at 11:47 AM on June 8, 2013

Sara C.: "My only takeaway here is that somebody on the Mad Men writing staff is a huge fan of Civilization IV."

I don't know, I use both of those quotes in real life, and I stopped at Civ II.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:52 AM on June 8, 2013

Yeah, they are both pretty ubiquitous quotes in general, but both of them are used to good effect in Civ IV. Anyone who's played more than a few Civ IV games will know those two particular quotes and have them on the tip of their tongue.

I, personally, am a huge fan of "I am become X, destroyer of Y" and use it constantly. But I will admit that it mostly sticks in my brain because of a video game, not because of Oppenheimer or the Bhagavad Gita.

Googling suggests it's also used in Assassin's Creed. Heh.
posted by Sara C. at 12:10 PM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]

Upon re-watching this morning, I only just realized that Stan phoned Bob Benson to get him to come down for Ginsberg's freakout. I find that interesting, but I don't know why.
posted by peagood at 7:19 AM on June 9, 2013

Wait, that doesn't make any sense. Cutler put Bob on the Manischevitz meeting, which Stan wouldn't have known. My read of the scene was that Bob was just going to pick Ginsberg up for the meeting, and that's the scene he found when he got there.
posted by Sara C. at 7:53 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I thought Cutler put Bob on Manischevitz after the freak out, not before. That's why he wasn't expecting to see Bob in Creative and yelled at him.

This is the first season I've watched in real time, and I can't believe how excited I get for Sundays. Reminds me of my X-phile days. Except with less fan fiction.
posted by Biblio at 10:45 AM on June 9, 2013

I think my favorite moment from last week was hearing Ginsberg call Stan a mother hen. That was adorable.
posted by palomar at 11:12 AM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Reminds me of my X-phile days. Except with less fan fiction.

The Draper family are seated down to dinner when a thunderous blast blows the flimsy plywood door off its hinges. Spaghetti dinner goes flying as Don tries to leap for the phone before a woman carting a smoking sawed off shotgun enters through the hole in the door.

"NOBODY MOVIE" She loads another shell into the rifle.

"Donald Edward Draper, AKA Richard Abraham Whitman?" Don, cowering on the floor, nods.

"You used to live at 2341 Cheever Drive in Ossining New York?"

Don nods again.

The unknown woman twisted her face into an almost grin. "I knew it. No one else believed me but I knew what I saw. Coming into my backyard - you even left the damn gate open so people would think he ran away."

Don started to nod his head, not because he knew what she was talking about but when a half-crazed young woman shoots her way into your home you say "Yes Ma'am" until the cops arrive.

She cocks the gun and raises it to his head. "Okay, now you better think long and hard

"WHERE IS MY DOG?"

Don opens his mouth and then closes it, trying not to break eye contact.

"Uhhh ...with ..Betty? I think?"

She pulls the trigger and the blast knocks Don straight though those fashionable full-length windows and off the balcony into Central Park East traffic. The unnamed woman cocks the spent shells from her gun.

"That's for Mr. Peanut you son of a bitch."
posted by The Whelk at 12:23 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

My read of the scene was that Bob was just going to pick Ginsberg up for the meeting, and that's the scene he found when he got there.

No, Stan called him, we watched Bob take the call (in his curiously empty office), just before he showed up to talk Ginsberg off the ledge. The sequence was, Cutler put Bob on Manischevitz, Ginsberg freaked out just before the meeting, Stan called Bob, Bob came down to get Ginsberg in shape for the meeting.

Presumably Stan knew about all of it just because he works with Ginsberg.
posted by torticat at 1:19 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh yeah and this...

I only just realized that Stan phoned Bob Benson to get him to come down for Ginsberg's freakout.

It is interesting, peagood, but it could be nothing more that Stan was giving Bob a heads-up that the guy he was supposed to be leaving for the meeting with was a wreck.

Come to think of it though--it is funny on another count that Bob, just before leaving for a meeting that was theoretically kind of a big deal for him, was preparing with nothing more than a self-help book about going from failure to success. And had apparently dozed off.
posted by torticat at 1:27 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

self-help book

Self-help record, even. And it's practically the only thing in his office!
posted by Sys Rq at 1:41 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob Benson is nothing more than a self help book. He is the very embodiment of Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People.
posted by popcassady at 2:22 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

2341 Cheever Drive

Wait Cheever Drive isn't in the show, right? That would be too brilliant. Or too on the nose.
posted by sweetkid at 3:52 PM on June 9, 2013

No that was me being cute.
posted by The Whelk at 3:56 PM on June 9, 2013

It was cute
posted by sweetkid at 3:57 PM on June 9, 2013

(Here's a little thing about the Vega that might be good background reading.)
posted by box at 4:01 PM on June 9, 2013

I think my favorite moment from last week was hearing Ginsberg call Stan a mother hen. That was adorable.

It was cute, but kinda funny since twice in that ep we saw Stan bail on a Ginsberg freakout ("this is my stop" and "I can't watch this").

Or maybe there was some dynamic there I was missing. Honestly I'm just shooting the shit here on Stan and Ginsberg because I'm sad I have to go on MM blackout for 24 hours until I can watch the new episode.
posted by torticat at 5:33 PM on June 9, 2013

Guys, I can't be online for the episode tonight. Nobody make any witticisms until I get back, okay?
posted by Chrysostom at 5:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm getting nervous, guys.
posted by mynameisluka at 5:58 PM on June 9, 2013

Okay, get your bets in for end-credit music tonight. I'm going with Gimme Shelter.

Rape, murder. It's jut a shot away.
posted by dry white toast at 6:39 PM on June 9, 2013

Bob Benson is nothing more than a self help book. He is the very embodiment of Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People.

Comment of the thread so far.
posted by dry white toast at 6:41 PM on June 9, 2013

I don't think Dale would recommend two coffee cups
posted by sweetkid at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2013

also every week I forget which channel AMC is for me somehow
posted by sweetkid at 6:52 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm going to go ahead and try to predict tonight's animated gif of the week: Bob Benson steps unsuspectingly into an empty elevator shaft, 2 cups of coffee trailing him down.
posted by .kobayashi. at 6:53 PM on June 9, 2013

According to the descriptive text on my TV guide, Betty is going try to steer Sally's future so I predict she will set her hair on fire.
posted by The Whelk at 6:55 PM on June 9, 2013

OR Bert Cooper cartwheels into the conference room, clicking his heels before landing perfectly in his chair. One of those two definitely.
posted by .kobayashi. at 6:55 PM on June 9, 2013

Since I just shot gunned like three seasons of Supernatural over the weekend I assume someone is gonna be possessed by a demon.
posted by The Whelk at 6:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Roger you are an imp
posted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on June 9, 2013

Manolis oh oh oh
posted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on June 9, 2013

Berry good!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:03 PM on June 9, 2013

Betty is going try to steer Sally's future

Betty teaches Sally to drive?

Sally is definitely getting to be old enough, especially for 60's levels of old enough.
posted by Sara C. at 7:03 PM on June 9, 2013

WHOA THAT'S COMING BACK
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on June 9, 2013

no just dementia
posted by sweetkid at 7:04 PM on June 9, 2013

Treat Yoself!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:04 PM on June 9, 2013

Yay Sally!
posted by dry white toast at 7:04 PM on June 9, 2013

Another yellow dress!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:04 PM on June 9, 2013

Damnit, Megan's alive.
posted by The Whelk at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

all that speculation of "she's 25" was pointless when will we learn
posted by sweetkid at 7:05 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

Veeeeitnaaaaams!
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 PM on June 9, 2013

I wondered when the draft was going to come up. It's been conspicuously absent.
posted by dry white toast at 7:06 PM on June 9, 2013

This one time...at Diplomacy Club....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:06 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

"I wanna live, Ted!" -- Pete Campbell
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:07 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Peggy's all cute about Pete all of a sudden
posted by sweetkid at 7:08 PM on June 9, 2013

I can't decide if drunk Pete Campbell is the best Pete Campbell or the worst Pete Campbell.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:08 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

this has been a weirdly literal episode so far. anyone else? Sally: Daddy supports my dreams. Pete: do you pity me?

What?
posted by sweetkid at 7:09 PM on June 9, 2013

This household is recoiling viscerally from the Pete Peggy scene here.
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on June 9, 2013

everyone is saying what they really mean and think! This is unheard of!
posted by The Whelk at 7:10 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

HELLS BELLS PEGGY
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:10 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

everyone is saying what they really mean and think! This is unheard of!

yea it is
posted by sweetkid at 7:10 PM on June 9, 2013

This is an Unholy Trinity.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:11 PM on June 9, 2013

Sally and Peggy are dressed in the same color, just saying.

Nice Meta joke about only ever seeing one room of that manse.
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Maybe literal, but there was some impressive unspoken dialogue between Pete and Peggy.
posted by dry white toast at 7:12 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm wearing yellow too.

Write that down T&LO
posted by sweetkid at 7:13 PM on June 9, 2013 [7 favorites]

What was Don watching on TV?
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:15 PM on June 9, 2013

That was the best scene in all of Mad Men ever. I am now shipping Peteggy. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE WORLD?!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:15 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

ok let's officially never speculate about coming soon again.
posted by sweetkid at 7:16 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Up is down, black is white, I almost found Pete attractive
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]

I am now shipping Peteggy. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE WORLD?!

Me too but we have similar sensibilities
posted by sweetkid at 7:16 PM on June 9, 2013

this conversation is so boring man Sylvia things are so boring

IMO YMMV
posted by sweetkid at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2013

I have the same Viking Orb ashtray on my back porch that's in the SC&P offices, omigod omigod omigod!!!
posted by box at 7:17 PM on June 9, 2013

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a Nan sighting!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2013

Mitchell is soft. Uncle Mack said Don was soft. Sylvia liked Don because he reminded her of her son. Weird.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:19 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

And we have our theme, Talking about Vietnam without talking about it!
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on June 9, 2013

Nan has very modern hair.
posted by gladly at 7:19 PM on June 9, 2013

Ted's wife has a similar voice to Megan
posted by sweetkid at 7:20 PM on June 9, 2013

this dialogue is exactly like work make it stop
posted by sweetkid at 7:22 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Juuuuuice!
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

There's the weaselly, insecure Ted we saw in previous seasons.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:23 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Anyone notice who's directing this episode?
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:24 PM on June 9, 2013

Mitchell Rosen you are bad news in a blouse.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yes, Jon Hamm's wife!
posted by The Whelk at 7:25 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Pete is relaxed and talking back, everything we know is wrong and all is permitted.
posted by The Whelk at 7:27 PM on June 9, 2013

they're not married. unless that just changed. But her film Ira and Abby lays out her case for not getting married
posted by sweetkid at 7:28 PM on June 9, 2013

Is this an opportune moment to point out that Mitchell Rosen is also wearing red and black?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:28 PM on June 9, 2013

Jennifer Westfeldt directed this? Wow!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:28 PM on June 9, 2013

That movie she did with Adam Scott was adorable.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:29 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Suave Manolo is Suave.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:29 PM on June 9, 2013

Also, Betty you are right, all civilization is a pretense to making out.

So..countdown to Sally making her father's mistake and sleeping with a Rosen.

Man Manolo is like a cartoon 40s lothario, is he a romance novel cover come to life.
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm just going to pretend Manolo is the Spanish soap opera version of Jack Donaghy.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

That movie she did with Adam Scott was adorable.

I really love her a lot. She is deliciously weird.
posted by sweetkid at 7:31 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

"A sour little man" - PERFECT!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:31 PM on June 9, 2013

"You are a Sour Little Man" is my new go-to insult.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don is being political. Someone hold me
posted by dry white toast at 7:32 PM on June 9, 2013

The rat metaphor from the suitcase.

Also you need to get a cat.
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

STEGGYYYYYYY!!!!!!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:35 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

STEGGY!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Why don't you get William F Buckley to kill your rat Peggy
posted by sweetkid at 7:35 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

ALL OF STAN'S VOICES ARE SEXY VOICES
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on June 9, 2013 [8 favorites]

Moshe Dayan sighting.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:36 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

OMG STEGGY?! can't wait can't wait can't wait eeeeee
posted by palomar at 7:36 PM on June 9, 2013

Tonight's Unholy Trinity Count: 2
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

ALL OF STAN'S VOICES ARE SEXY VOICES

he is really out in front on hot male cast members for me right now
posted by sweetkid at 7:37 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Stan's sexy voice is the secret to his beard growing superpower.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:37 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

God that scene with Pete's mother was a miasma of attacks and passive aggression and fucked up dynamics.
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 PM on June 9, 2013

Time for Peggy to call Pete, her hunter. Now he can prove to himself that he's lovable.

I can't believe that I'm psyched about this.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:38 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete doesn't actually hunt, he only pretends to hunt.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:39 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm waiting for a final scene with Bob and Manolo in bed and Manolo has a total nasally native new York accent.
posted by The Whelk at 7:39 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Any port in a storm, huh Peggy?
posted by dry white toast at 7:39 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Now shipping: Bonolo.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:40 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Is it just me, or are there more booze ads on 'Mad Men' than on the average show?
posted by box at 7:40 PM on June 9, 2013

Any port in a storm, huh Peggy?

of course, it's Peggy.
posted by sweetkid at 7:40 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peggy has a very well organized Rolodex: Guys who would kill for me A-F
posted by The Whelk at 7:40 PM on June 9, 2013 [8 favorites]

Megan is talking in Sally's voice.
posted by dry white toast at 7:41 PM on June 9, 2013

Megan is always inconvenienced by kids when she has to go to work.

I GET IT SHE WORKS WORKING LADY HAS TO WORK
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 PM on June 9, 2013

Sorry, Betty's voice.
posted by dry white toast at 7:41 PM on June 9, 2013

Yes, but half of those booze ads are the same Johnnie Walker ad...
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:41 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh just kiss him.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

"Is it your kid" made me LOL like for real out loud.
posted by sweetkid at 7:42 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Hey, I know somebody with a plane who can fly to Canada....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2013

Ted needs a time out.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2013

Wouldn't it be awesome if Mitchell Rosen grew up to be George W. Bush?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

This episode is so literal it's so weird
posted by sweetkid at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2013

I'm kind of done with Sylvia.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

boring Sylvia is so boring

IMO YMMV
posted by sweetkid at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2013

Bob is IN CONTROL.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2013

" sit down"

Yes bob, anything you want bob
posted by The Whelk at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2013

omgherewego
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2013

whoa Pete took directions from Bob?

He needs a therapist
posted by sweetkid at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2013

OK BOB'S GAY
posted by sweetkid at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Manolo's interests!
posted by box at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013

Okay, that pause and glance on "degenerate" is all the confirmation I need.
posted by gladly at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob is sooo gay. Adorably gay.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013

And in love with Pete?!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013

Bete?
posted by peagood at 7:48 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

AIIIIIIII
posted by The Whelk at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

YESSSSSSS!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

It doesn't matter who it is.
posted by box at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013

aw Bob's face
posted by sweetkid at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013

Oh sweet poor Bob!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:49 PM on June 9, 2013

Look if we rewind we can see the exact moment Bob's heart just broke.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [14 favorites]

I choo choo choose you Pete Campbell. And there's a picture of a train
posted by sweetkid at 7:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [7 favorites]

This episode was totally worth it for that scene.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on June 9, 2013

Manila envelopes.
posted by box at 7:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

BOB YOU CAN DO BETTER I AM RIGHT HERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SCREEN * GRABBYHANDS*
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [17 favorites]

no no encore presentation of the Killing I need to watch this again
posted by sweetkid at 7:51 PM on June 9, 2013

Poor Bob. You can do so much better than Pete.
posted by donajo at 7:51 PM on June 9, 2013

So did Pete think about it. I think he thought about it.
posted by dry white toast at 7:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Again. AGAIN!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on June 9, 2013

Pete actually handled that slightly better than I expected, but I'm scared for Bob.
posted by gladly at 7:52 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm Lorenzo. I blog about colors.
posted by box at 7:52 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

No, Pete is too self-absorbed to think about it.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on June 9, 2013

he did think about it.
posted by sweetkid at 7:52 PM on June 9, 2013

I think that was mostly Pete being shocked at (to his knowledge) his first encounter with a real life homosexual.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:53 PM on June 9, 2013

Interesting parallels between how Bob came in and took charge of Pete's crisis, and how he handled Ginsberg's meltdown... and Joan's crisis too, come to think of it.

I <3 Bob.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:54 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]

Come over to our square Bob IT IS SAFE AND SEXY.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on June 9, 2013

The irony is that Manolo being gay solves Pete's problem.
posted by dry white toast at 7:54 PM on June 9, 2013

Sally is about to walk in on something.
posted by dry white toast at 7:55 PM on June 9, 2013

Pete's mother loins problem.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:55 PM on June 9, 2013

Was that doorman on The Sopranos?
posted by box at 7:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Okay, how sure are we that Bob's gambit wasn't another power play? Get another partner on his side?
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I knew the giant shiny keyring was gonna spell trouble.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

THE CITY IS DIRTY
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

OH MY GOD.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:56 PM on June 9, 2013

Dear God!
posted by box at 7:56 PM on June 9, 2013

Poor, poor kid.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:57 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Child psychologist on the white courtesy phone....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on June 9, 2013

that music is scaring the shit out of me
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:57 PM on June 9, 2013

Saly is going to have so many conflicting emotions.
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 PM on June 9, 2013

he's just...not coming back.
posted by sweetkid at 7:58 PM on June 9, 2013

btw, cereals have featured very prominently in this episode
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:58 PM on June 9, 2013

Peggy has a cat, as it should be.
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Ok we get it. Ted is the opposite of Don.
posted by dry white toast at 7:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

i called bob
posted by PinkMoose at 7:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sally is going to grow up to be an artist and paint lots of pictures of scenes through keyholes.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh Megan, you're so good at dealing with functional alcoholics.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

So now Sally knows her father isn't a hero.
posted by sweetkid at 8:00 PM on June 9, 2013

Mitchell!
posted by box at 8:01 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh, I'll BET Sylvia is "overwhelmed."
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:01 PM on June 9, 2013

YAY SALLY!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:01 PM on June 9, 2013

Sally Draper, MVP.
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sally's lion pillow is disapproving.
posted by box at 8:02 PM on June 9, 2013

OH NO HE DIDN'T
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on June 9, 2013

you idiot Sally isn't five.
posted by sweetkid at 8:03 PM on June 9, 2013

my heart hurts for sally and bob both
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:03 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Bob fly the TARDIS into Sally's room and rescue her.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:04 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh Sally, the only adult you like, is a douche.
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete's rifle, on the next Mad Men.
posted by box at 8:04 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

The gun is back!
posted by gladly at 8:05 PM on June 9, 2013

Peggy got a cat instead of schtupping anyone, though. So one happy ending, I guess, though isn't that what her mother said she should do instead of cohabitating with Abe? Hmm
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:05 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

To be fair, the cat is better at solving her problems and fulfilling her needs than Abe.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on June 9, 2013 [9 favorites]

Oh, Sally. Another plaid dress flopping on another one of your beds.
posted by peagood at 8:08 PM on June 9, 2013

So one happy ending, I guess, though isn't that what her mother said she should do instead of cohabitating with Abe? Hmm

Yes, as she tacitly predicted her daughter's eventual death: "You're lonely, get a cat. They live thirteen years. Then you get another one. Then another. Then you're done." Thanks, Ma!
posted by Elsa at 8:08 PM on June 9, 2013

So, I'm a bit confused at Bob's actions here, he was trying to tell Pete that Manolo isn't fucking his mother, cause Manolo is gay, and trying to gauge Pete's reaction to that much like the GM dinner about the War, but then he full on hits on him ..not that I haven't ...done ...such things, but it seems like a big jump in escalation of dialogue. There is a long way from " no it's fine, Manolo's gay" to " also, I am gay and I am in love with you."

There is still something...off about Bob.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]

I didn't expect to be so UPSET on Sally's behalf.

Also...there's no failed gay come-on like a Mad Men failed gay come-on. Jesus Christ.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Like maybe it's more Bob " pan sexual ambitious social climber" Benson then love lorn closet case.
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]

Word. Without a lot of confirmation, I tend to think of Bob less as gay and more as, uh, available.
posted by box at 8:13 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, all of my feels are with Sally. She's so smart and grown up for her age kind of totally her father. She is going to be fascinating.
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

See also, Sally's waaaay more savvy with interpersonal relationships friend.

She's great at Model U.N, Sally is growing into a proto snarky nerd.

Or political wonk.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on June 9, 2013

Also Bob being commanding is pretty much up there with Lane hitting Pete in " sudden momentary epic hotness"

Maybe I should get these feelings ..checked.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Isn't it amazing how quickly the whole Mitchell thing went from HEY SALLY THIS IS A THING to Mitchell who? SICK SAD WORLD! *flops on bed*
posted by mynameisluka at 8:17 PM on June 9, 2013

Sally, turn on the Tv, I'm sure sure Amok Time will be playing, it will tell you what to do.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

I mean, the other riple, Bob is trying to prevent Manolo from being fired " so he's a degenerate" kinda closed that deal, but then why follow up with yur person version of The Hunger?

Unless..Bob is ...actually in love with Pete.

*shudder*
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on June 9, 2013

So if Manolo's interests don't go that way, then what exactly is going on between him and Pete's mother?
posted by donajo at 8:25 PM on June 9, 2013

I was never on the Sylvia-hate train before, but after tonight, I'd like an express ticket, please. Ugh.
posted by donajo at 8:26 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

He's giving her lots of time and attension and generally acting like a cartoon version of an old movie lothario, add her addled brain and you get that.

Or he is uh..massaging her. In the manner of old doctors.
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Or just a higher end, more hands on version of that Liberace did for a lot neglected working class housewives, the perfect Son/Lover thing,.
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on June 9, 2013

It will dawn on Sally before long that this is why her parents divorced.

And Megan thinks Don stepped up because she got through to him.
posted by dry white toast at 8:29 PM on June 9, 2013

Oh Megan, her life is nothing but weird shit happening in her apartment that she has no context or explanation for. I'd want to spend all day at work too.
posted by The Whelk at 8:32 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

Is Peggy still living in the brownstone? Or is this a new apartment? I couldn't tell.
posted by donajo at 8:39 PM on June 9, 2013

I think it's the brownstone. Judging mostly by the locks.
posted by box at 8:40 PM on June 9, 2013

Peggy's got a whole brownstone with lots of locks.

Spin off series, Peggy is the fussy, put upon landlord of a w80s brownstone with Wacky 70s era tenants.
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 PM on June 9, 2013 [8 favorites]

I'm trying to imagine Bob using that coming on technique with each of the other the other male cast members and amusing myself with the reactions. ( for the purposes of my mental well being, Stan's reaction is let's get really high and see what happens)

( fun fact, I was once the receiver of a totally super WASPy come on like that from an actual prep school student that I didn't register AT ALL cause I grew up where people accidentally touched knees and hugged all the time)
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

As I cleaned this up
posted by The Whelk at 8:54 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Ferdinand Marcos.
posted by box at 8:58 PM on June 9, 2013

Wacky 70s era tenants

Wasn't everyone wacky in the 70s?
posted by sweetkid at 9:08 PM on June 9, 2013

Of course Diplomacy Club is an excuse to make out it's right there in the NAME
posted by sweetkid at 9:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

The references to Ferdinand Marcos startled the heck out of me. By this point my dad was about to ship out for a short tour of duty in Vietnam, leave the Air Force for the Foreign Service, and soon will be on his way to Manila to meet and marry a Spanish-English-Tagalog speaking lady. Having Marcos' name spill out of her mouth felt weird.
posted by PussKillian at 9:12 PM on June 9, 2013

haha on rewatch ted thinks he and don are fred and ginger

seriously when are they making out
posted by sweetkid at 9:28 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peggy, yer barking up the wrong tree, Ted has stalwart, clean-scrubbed apple-cheeked Protestantism on his side and a serious hard on for flouncing onto the bed waiting for Don to call.

Stan is in bed with Someone and treated you like his sister. Because you are.

Pete's getting relaxed enough for you to consider it but he has his whole mirror-maze of sexual fantasia to deal with.

I know you're on the cat-filled rebound (nice cat, btw)but maybe some guy in between people you're professional entangled with and random movie theater handjobs?

Can Peggy have a one night stand? or something? Without a counter to her natural control-freak perfectionist tendencies she's gonna go straight up her own ass.
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]

Now I really want to see a Fred and Ginger movie where Fred punches Ginger in the face all the time.
posted by palomar at 9:35 PM on June 9, 2013

Next on Mad Men -- Peggy goes straight up her own ass!

Can they show that on AMC?
posted by palomar at 9:36 PM on June 9, 2013

Oh Don and Ted
posted by The Whelk at 9:36 PM on June 9, 2013

I was really hoping after the Sally seeing him and Sylvia thing Don would leave the apartment and not come back till next season, where we'd see WTF he was up to.
posted by sweetkid at 9:38 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Now I really want to see a Fred and Ginger movie where Fred punches Ginger in the face all the time.

HBO is developing a series based on Gaiman's "American Gods", where in the premise is all the old gods still exist and walk the world in diminished forms, Kali, Seth, Odin, etc And there are new gods, like Media and Automobile and Atomic, and the god Television appears to people by breaking the 4th wall and inhabiting characters in shows, the main character watches an episode of the Dick Van Dyke show where Dick slaps Laurie across the face and she starts sobbing, promising to never do it again, before turning to talk to him. During a rerun of I Love Lucy, the God Television tries to entice him with "Hey, ever wanted to see Lucy's tits?"

So what I'm saying is, if you're adapting it to a more modern setting, you can have the main character be watching an episode of Mad Men on the Teevee and suddenly have Don turn around, talk to him and say "So, you ever wanted to see Don Draper's cock?"
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]

Poor Pete's mother told him he was always unlovable and that's why he considered Bob for a second.
posted by sweetkid at 9:54 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

"nobody loves Pete Campell!" *sob crash sob*

"There there big boy, I love you! Always and forever!"

"Oh thank you Bob, you're a single light in a weary world"

"Now just sign these insurance papers, you're allergic to shellfish, right? I remembered!"
posted by The Whelk at 9:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

*cue lobster dinner*
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

*sigh*

I thought it was poignant. Poor Pete. I think he's doing his best with his mom on his own.
posted by sweetkid at 9:58 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Is it just me, or does Sally's voice sound A LOT like Darlene on Roseanne?
posted by Chrysostom at 10:09 PM on June 9, 2013

I don't think she sounds like Darlene at all. Darlene sounded 90s surly, Sally's kind of over it all in a rich kid way.
posted by sweetkid at 10:11 PM on June 9, 2013

Sally's friend reminded me of Francine (Betty's Ossining bestie)
posted by sweetkid at 10:11 PM on June 9, 2013

Bob Hits On The Various Mad Men

*knee touch*

Don sits up, buttons his suit jacket.

"Wrong bathroom pal. Look, you're a good kid, and this never happened."

*knee touch*

Roger finishes his drink. Ben hits his knee again. "Seriously, that's your opening move? I'm not a virgin at the box social Bob, yeesh. Not that I'm not flattered, but you want to chase some light loafers you need to be a little more direct. This isn't mayberry or podunk or whatever it is you fell out of. Here's Jane's number, she has some friends. Seriously you're farm teaming it."

*knee touch*

Bert gives Bob a thousand yard stare and pushes Bob's knee back into place.

"Listen I fended off Adulous Huxley and John Maynard Keynes fresh off a benzos bender, you're not trying anything new there."

*knee touch*

"Why are you touching my leg?" Stan furrows his brow.

"I just thought I could have more input into creative if-"

"UUUGH, why does everyone. Here" Stan pulls two joints from his case on the desk. "Relax, be cool, and forget."

A while passes.

"is it true what they say about ...people like you?"

"Say what Stan?"

"like with the oral thing, that's it's...cause it's the same thing."

"Where would've heard that Stan?"

"I keep my ears open."

*knee touch*

"Stop touching my legs it's driving me crazy." Micheal says while sitting and fidgeting.

"It's what I said before, I could help you, comfort you" Bob puts his hand on Ginsberg's leg

"I could be here for you."

Micheal winces and recoils. "No touching, we don't do the touching, and you're hair and hair you have is just freaking me out it's like a bowl of evil brown pasta, just go-"

"Micheal-"

"GO FORTH PASTA MAN. GO!"

*knee touch*

"I just feel like you're so close to cracking Don, you know?" Ted looks like he's a million miles away.

"Enough about Don, what about more ..pressing matters?" Bob puts his leg closer against Ted's own.

"I'm so glad we can have this kind of close relationship, I really feel like we should be a family, able to talk and touch and share." Ted stands up and gives Ben a big bear hug.

"This is the kind of agency I wanted." He pats Bob on the back and sighs.

"What do you think Don is doing right now?"
posted by The Whelk at 10:20 PM on June 9, 2013 [26 favorites]

I'm leaving out Cutler cause that just ends in whippets.
posted by The Whelk at 10:42 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]

Stan and Bob, on the Piers, after 3 am drinks, furitave handjobs in the dark, as a kind of seeking lost freedom.
posted by PinkMoose at 10:53 PM on June 9, 2013

COOOONSTANT CRAAAAVING
posted by The Whelk at 10:56 PM on June 9, 2013

(and I cleaned that up a bit)

(seriously considering how popular it is, there is a total lack of quality fic about this show, no idea why)
posted by The Whelk at 10:59 PM on June 9, 2013

the animated gif you were hoping for
posted by Rhomboid at 11:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

plus some Sally giffage too
posted by Rhomboid at 11:13 PM on June 9, 2013

Bob Benson grindr profile
posted by Rhomboid at 11:14 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am annoyed that James Wolk is like a year older than me.

I don't know why.
posted by The Whelk at 11:14 PM on June 9, 2013

Peggy + cat
another
posted by Rhomboid at 11:16 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Drunk with Peggy and Ted is the most charming Pete's ever been. I could watch that Pete every episode.
posted by rewil at 11:19 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

They like to mix 85% reprehensible Pete with 15% sympathetic Pete.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:49 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete is the two buck chuck of characters.
posted by The Whelk at 11:53 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also I want to Call Don out on something here.

Gum.

Now I don't have huge long whiskey fests in the middle of the day (that much) but I keep a packet of violet gum (the literal same brand of gum Peggy uses as a magic totem) in my pocket at all times, to chew in-between meals cause it refreshes and makes my breath not awful. There is no reason to come home to your wife, daughter, and her curiously way to into show business friend with whiskey breath.
posted by The Whelk at 12:08 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob Benson is just a red herring.

(cue Leslie Anne Warren holding a gun)
posted by The Whelk at 12:13 AM on June 10, 2013

(also I take issue, Sal was fired for not prostituting himself to the client, and I'm in the pool that Sal was so closeted, he's never actually...done anything.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:15 AM on June 10, 2013

Oh and I totally mixed up my Jennifers, this was not the Jennifer married to Jon Hamm

It is however the Jennifer that directed The Suitcase so hey hey.
posted by The Whelk at 12:19 AM on June 10, 2013

There are just, too many Jennifers.
posted by The Whelk at 12:19 AM on June 10, 2013

Jesus, that last scene, with Sally finally realizing what her father was, or could be--
posted by PinkMoose at 12:29 AM on June 10, 2013

like she is resolving that being an adult is knowing, and not saying that she knows
posted by PinkMoose at 12:32 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

which was, of course, bookended by her saying Dad understands and looks out for me unlike you! nyah nyah! Poor Sally.
posted by The Whelk at 12:32 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

So much to process. Peggy & Mrs Campbell. Peggy & Pete. Peggy & Stan. Pete & Bob, or Pete/Bob. Bob/Broken Heart. Poor little Sally Draper!
posted by crossoverman at 12:33 AM on June 10, 2013

Don goes to her, and has at least a small conversation, about the nature of this, and they reach an understanding--he treats her like an adult, something that Betty has never done.
posted by PinkMoose at 12:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Actually, her Step-Dad may be the most purely positive force she could grab a hold of , esp with the hints of her political leanings, so of course, that will never happen.

I say this as a general fan of Henry Francis and he seems to be , in the most part, Not monstrously evil like most of our mains.
posted by The Whelk at 12:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [5 favorites]

But yes, Don is the only adult who treats her like an adult, he's very good about that.

GEE I WONDER WHY.
posted by The Whelk at 12:35 AM on June 10, 2013

IT'S NOT LIKE HE KNOWS ABOUT GROWING UP FAST OR ANYTHING.
posted by The Whelk at 12:38 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Anyway, Sally is SO her Father's daughter, but she really needs to spend time with Henry Francis or her bestie or just..not that or maaaaan I can see so many awful rich kid futures for her.
posted by The Whelk at 12:39 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

It's a set of triangles

sally and her friend and megan
don and sally and megan
don and sally and betty
don and sally and henry

ted and pete and peggy
pete and his mother and marcos
pete and bob and marcos

peggy and stan and stans girl
peggy and ted and don
peggy and pete and petes mother

the interesting thing is don is never part of those triangles

don and ted but not...
don and roger but not...
don and sally but not...
don and megan but not...
peggy and don but not...

pete has completely dimissed him, as well

the handshake, not as a friendship move, the sunkist vs ocean spray, the being caught in flagrente with his mistress and not his wife, his connections not working, how badly he is working with clients--

you can imagine pete and peggy and ted and bob and stan working some way to surrive the 70s, even roger, who has class (pun intended) and part of that working out is negoting unstable triangles...don cant do that anymore

the three at the first table
the six at the chevy meeting
posted by PinkMoose at 12:40 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'd like to say what was said before, Sally sounds snarky teenaged, but she also sounds *rich* and thats a very particular timber and tone. Sally sounds like a teenager from a wealthy family. I think this might come up.
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Ok--how rich is Don and how rich is Henry Francis and does Betty have her own money, and how much does Meghan have?
posted by PinkMoose at 12:50 AM on June 10, 2013

I got the feeling at the Ocean Spray dinner that Ted saw Ted+Pete+Peggy as the possible nucleus of a new agency.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:03 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]

Well, Ted basically said that - about the kind of agency he wanted. I just can't see it happening so soon after the merger.
posted by crossoverman at 1:10 AM on June 10, 2013

Love reading these Mad Men threads. Love the show.

Now for my burning question: Why, oh why, does Stan have a huge poster of Moshe Dayan above his bed? I can't figure that out.

When I was a wee lad, back in the dark ages, I would see him and his eye patch on TV and think he must be such a badass. Or whatever the equivalent thought would be for me at that age.

Was he that popular after the Six-Day War in '67? Popular enough for Stan to have a huge poster on his wall?
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 1:45 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

thats who that was, thank you.
posted by PinkMoose at 1:46 AM on June 10, 2013

Most of the time I have a lengthy reaction, but this week I'm just shipping Pete with everyone all of a damn sudden.

I do love that he starts that scene taking orders from Bob, even calming down on command. Pete will do anything for a person who takes care of him, I guess; I can't imagine that this state of affairs can continue now, but maybe Pete is just wired that strongly and Bob will win him back to status quo with coffee and upbeat silence.

It's interesting that Bob's entire schtick is taking care. I mean, he lies too, he's also into lying, but again and again, the way he gets into people's hearts is to encourage and fuss over them. (He gets nowhere near Ginsberg's heart, but at least they get to the meeting.) It's the reason I want him to be at least sort of sincere, against mounting evidence. These people have all been so damaged by lack of care, and/or by inability to recognize it (Pete: both). I'm pretty sure that Bob has that effect in-universe, too, though Joan's eyes have probably always been more open than Pete's.

(I kind of suspected that Bob was in love with Pete based on their last one-on-one conversation, but I don't really take credit for that because I was looking so hard for gay Bob evidence at that point that I was accepting glances that could've meant anything. I still think there are feelings there, though see above under "want him to be sort of sincere against mounting evidence".)

Pete eating cereal at home reminds me of the au pair episode, which is to say a) it reminds me of one of his most disgusting moments and b) perversely, it also reminds me of a general era when I had great sympathy and hope for him and he was actually kind of my favorite character.

Lengthy reaction whaddya know
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:19 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]

(And to think I shipped Bob/Joan at the hospital. To put it in fanfic terms, I tend to be very moved by hurt/comfort scenarios -- a button which all of Bob's storylines seem designed to push.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:27 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

crossoverman: "Well, Ted basically said that - about the kind of agency he wanted. I just can't see it happening so soon after the merger."

Well, this is probably nuance, but I felt like what he SAID was, "Man, you guys are great, it was really good working with you on this pitch." And what he THOUGHT was, "Maybe this could lead to something better."

I mean, I've worked on projects where I'm really happy with the team and thought we did something good, but I'm not thinking of starting a new company with them. Ted seemed to be that step further, and I just wondered if maybe his Don frustrations already have the wheels turning. Could be off here.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:12 AM on June 10, 2013

Peggy has always reminded me of Sally from The Dick van Dyke Show. IIRC, Sally had a big orange cat. (The cat's name was Mr. Henderson.) I love how Peggy and the cat just looked at each other for a brief moment, than back at the TV, like they're entering an uneasy business relationship. I wonder how long it took to get that shot.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:13 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

Roger finishes his drink. Ben hits his knee again. "Seriously, that's your opening move? I'm not a virgin at the box social Bob, yeesh. Not that I'm not flattered, but you want to chase some light loafers you need to be a little more direct. This isn't mayberry or podunk or whatever it is you fell out of. Here's Jane's number, she has some friends. Seriously you're farm teaming it."

Pure sweet perfection, right there.

Too many Jennifers

Yeeeeeah, I was one of five in my first-grade class in 1975. Blech.

I think it's sort of fascinating, and a testament to the writing and acting, that we still don't know what's going on with Bob. There's been nothing definitive. He hasn't actually said "I'm gay." We've never seen him in a pitch meeting. Matthew Weiner said in an interview linked upthread (or in the previous thread) that Bob is definitely a liar. So I am starting to think everything he does is purely manipulative, and in reality he's a total charlatan. He is Dick Whitman, reborn. (Hell, his BB name and Don's DD are both alliterative. I know, that's pushing it, but still.) We need a scene with Bob and Don where they both realize they're fakers.

And Sally, jesus. I disagree with the notion that Don spoke to her like an adult. "I was comforting her." Come on, Sally's smart as a whip. My favorite line was when she said sonething like "You don't get to talk to me." DAMN STRAIGHT.

One last thought -- I think it was Ted who used the word "asshole." I think this is huge for that time period. I remember when I first saw "Bullitt" a few years ago, and in one scene towards the end, Steve McQueen says "That's bullshit!" My father told the story that at the time (late 60s), that was unheard of, and controversial. So I gasped like a schoolkid when Ted said it: Ooooooooh.

So much to process in this episode. Yay for DVRs.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:20 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ted seemed to be that step further, and I just wondered if maybe his Don frustrations already have the wheels turning. Could be off here.

I don't think Ted is in a position financially to attempt a breakaway agency. From what we briefly saw of his home life in this episode it seems like he's still working hard to "put food on the table" etc. and his wife hints that despite all his hard work he is not really a "success" yet. Plus he would be putting even more of a strain on his home life. Pete and Peggy are not yet wealthy enough to help carry the financial risk/burden of starting a new agency. When SCDP broke away Sterling and Cooper didn't have to worry about money and Don (while not as wealthy) still had enough that he was also able to help carry Pete along.

By the end I think was feeling better, believing he had worked through some things with Don. Also loved his line "I'm going to assume you don't have many friends..."

I did think it was interesting that this week Cutler was calmer about all the conflict and Ted was freaking out. What, do they just take turns?
posted by mikepop at 6:47 AM on June 10, 2013

Don goes to her, and has at least a small conversation, about the nature of this, and they reach an understanding--he treats her like an adult, something that Betty has never done.

And Sally, jesus. I disagree with the notion that Don spoke to her like an adult. "I was comforting her." Come on, Sally's smart as a whip. My favorite line was when she said sonething like "You don't get to talk to me." DAMN STRAIGHT.

Yes, COMPLETELY disagree that he was talking to her like an adult. That's not the way adults talk to each other about sex, even related adults. He was talking to her like she was a five year old who didn't know anything about sex yet and didn't understand what she saw.

And then comparing it to Betty? Don does not come across as the favorable parent here. In fact, this whole situation calls back to Betty's yelling "Your father's a hero" because Sally has these rose colored glasses that her father can't do any wrong ,while Betty's putting in all the heavy lifting which is 1) true and 2) a common theme with divorced parents when there's one parent there more for the day to day.

It seems pretty severe to say that Don is doing something positive that Betty wouldn't, or that anything about this scene reflects badly on anyone but Don.
posted by sweetkid at 7:14 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Theory: Mitchell Rosen grows up to become the Mitchell from the film "Mitchell!"
posted by drezdn at 7:19 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

One last thought -- I think it was Ted who used the word "asshole." I think this is huge for that time period. I remember when I first saw "Bullitt" a few years ago, and in one scene towards the end, Steve McQueen says "That's bullshit!" My father told the story that at the time (late 60s), that was unheard of, and controversial. So I gasped like a schoolkid when Ted said it: Ooooooooh.

It might have been hugely controversial to say it in a movie (I think Bullitt was indeed the first to do that), but in real life?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:37 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Who’s the puffy guy who’s a big blurry sex machine?
–Mitchell!
–That Mitchell is one fat …
-Shut your mouth!
–I’m just talking about Mitchell.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:37 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]

Can Peggy have a one night stand? or something? Without a counter to her natural control-freak perfectionist tendencies she's gonna go straight up her own ass.

I kinda think that in Peggy's mind, one-night stands lead to I Didn't Know I Was Pregnantville, with a side trip to a sanatorium and an adoption agency, and being unable to escape your babydaddy/coworker (through three different work environments) up to the point where said babydaddy's senile mother shows up at your office eight years later and, mistaking you for his wife, makes a lot of noise eerily relevant to the kid you are desperately trying to forget you ever had. So... up her ass ain't so bad, comparatively.
posted by psoas at 7:43 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I was comforting her, I think was on telling Sally why Adults have sex. I dont think anyone was denying that dex was occuring.
posted by PinkMoose at 7:47 AM on June 10, 2013

I think a 14 year old girl knows why Adults Have Sex. I think a more "adult" conversation would have involved him admitting that he made a mistake and acknowledging adults make mistakes, rather than saying he was comforting her with his penis because she was feeling very bad.

He didn't want to have a moment with her, he just didn't want her to tell anyone.
posted by sweetkid at 7:52 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]

If only Peggy would have called Don to kill the mouse. "This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened."
posted by drezdn at 7:53 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

IT WAS A RAT big diff
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

That is the first time I ever saw Pete come across as fun and personable. I never wanted Pete and Peggy to get together or thought it would happen, but now I'm thinking it may be a possibility. I still don't want it to happen, though. You know if they get together they'll be the most horrible pig-headed Republican couple you ever saw by the eighties. Peggy needs to be with someone more liberal.

"Sour little man." Sing it, Mother Campbell.

I love that Peggy got a cat, and I hope the cat becomes a regular on the show. That's why I got my cat, though thankfully it was to deal with mice, not rats. Men are for sex, Peggy. On all other fronts you can come up with your own solutions.

I like that Ted has a good wife and a workable marriage.

Bob, WHY would you be interested in Pete? WHY?!!!

I was expecting the whole Sylvia & Don thing to blow up in Don's face, but I never saw it blowing up quite that way.

Sally, go into politics. You will. You must. But dump that friend of yours. Her signing your name to that letter and giving it to Mitchell was a major backstab. Also, Mitchell may have talked to your friend because she was talking to him, but he was looking at you.

I was hoping to see Mitchell Rosen post-haircut.

Jon Hamm could comfort me any time. I am in great need of comfort.
posted by orange swan at 8:05 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

I seem to recall Peggy having a fairly positive one-night stand with an engineering student she picked up in a bar. But maybe I'm forgetting some negative aspect of it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:11 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

The quick cut of Sylvia and Don was so hyper-fucking, like in rut. Definitely weird for a fourteen year old. Remember when you first get the gist of sex? Especially as it relates to your parents? You picture a lot more kissing and tenderness.

This may have been acutely obvious to me as I was watching with my somewhat shy and awkward sixteen year old daughter. We knew what was up as soon as the keys became a plot point, but WHAM!
posted by readery at 8:18 AM on June 10, 2013

Any guesses on what Peggy named her cat?
posted by drezdn at 8:18 AM on June 10, 2013

I really dislike Sylvia anyway, but her insta-hyper-freakout "oh God oh God oh God" that was All About Her was just really pathetic and gross.
posted by sweetkid at 8:19 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Possible names for Peggy's cat:

Sublimation!
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Tom and Lorenzo have suggested Ralph, Waldo and Emerson as names for the cat. Heh!

I do disagree with them that Sylvia's freakout had anything to do with guilt. That was an "oh shit there are going to be consequences now" moment.

Oh, and as soon as I saw Roger juggling oranges, I thought, "GIF of the week."
posted by orange swan at 8:22 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

Jesus. A single woman gets a cat, 350,000,000 sexual frustration jokes follow. No wonder people are afraid of being single.
posted by sweetkid at 8:24 AM on June 10, 2013 [5 favorites]

Groucho Meowx
posted by drezdn at 8:26 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Honestly I think she has a better chance of future emotional stability with the cat.

Cats rarely throw money in your face, bang hippies in the office, or get all self righteous when you stab them.
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

Cats rarely throw money in your face, bang hippies in the office, or get all self righteous when you stab them.

Or anything Ducks do
posted by sweetkid at 8:28 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

No, the cat's name is Something.

Some poor thing without a name.....
posted by The Whelk at 8:28 AM on June 10, 2013

So while we're all in our own Bob Benson shaped freak out, can we get a running tally on the number of Favors called on and in this Episode and how many reciprocal relationships are shown cause its A LOT.

Hell the episode is called " Favors" and I'm untangling the meanings of that word ( from, a gift you do for someone to being in someone's good graces to ..the concept of capitalism.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh man just that first sentence of the T&Lo recap made me not want to read further. I read the Sepinwall review first this time.
posted by sweetkid at 8:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Some poor thing without a name.....

Hey, Peggy's cat looked just like Holly Golightly's "no name slob" of a cat, and you know Peggy's seen Breakfast at Tiffany's.
posted by orange swan at 8:35 AM on June 10, 2013

I like how Peggy's cat took up half the couch. My cat does that and I always look at him and think - how are you doing that? You weigh ten pounds and you have tiny legs and your nose is smaller than my thumb.
posted by sweetkid at 8:39 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]

I just figured it out:
Don is Lucille
Peggy is Michael
Ginsberg is Buster
Ted Chaough is Lucille 2
Bob Benson is Maebe

I think it's pretty well settled now that it's Pete who's the Michael.

("I don't want Mom mixed up with the sort of creep that would have her as a fetish.")

And maybe Sally is the GOB? Is that possible?

Further reading.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:04 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Heather Havrilesky's recap from Salon; the A.V. Club recap.
posted by orange swan at 9:20 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Really liking Heather's take on Pete:

Pete is deathly accurate about so much of what’s going on around him (naturally he would be the first to notice that Ted and Peggy are in love), but his closed-mindedness clouds his vision about anything that’s too close to home. He may be the most disgusted and the most outspoken when he feels some injustice is in the mix (he had the strongest reaction to JFK and MLK assassinations), but he’s also unexpectedly rigid and old-fashioned. And he’s such a bratty little baby to boot! In his first scene, drunk with Peggy and Ted, we get flexible, lovable, honest Pete. He generously tells Peggy that Ted is in love with her, and then, instead of giving her a hard time or acting jealous about it, he very vulnerably asks her if she hates him.

This is what makes Pete so fascinating. Also like a real person, even if an often unlikeable one. I think sometimes when people claim they want to punch or kill Pete or Betty, or want bad things to happen to them, or think when bad things happen to them it's a victory instead of just how life goes, they don't want to admit that people are like Pete or Betty in real life, or that they themselves might have strange mixes of petulance, arrogance, warmth, anxiety, humor, compassion, etc.
posted by sweetkid at 9:28 AM on June 10, 2013 [11 favorites]

I think Peggy's cat will probably be called Kitty or The Cat. Possibly Tabby or Tom.

IIRC, Morris the Cat debuted in 1968.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:31 AM on June 10, 2013

and you know Peggy's seen Breakfast at Tiffany's.

I cannot allow Peggy Olson to be the official beginning of people slobberingly misunderstanding Breakfast At Tiffany's.

Besides, she probably read the book.
posted by Sara C. at 9:32 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

How would she be misunderstanding Breakfast At Tiffany's by naming her cat Cat?

I don't think she would but
posted by sweetkid at 9:33 AM on June 10, 2013

Am I the only one who saw Jonesy handing out keys willy nilly and thought, "Well, yeah, no wonder someone broke in..."
posted by Sara C. at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]

He probably thought Ida looked like a fashion model! No prob not.
posted by sweetkid at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]

I'm not so much talking about the cat thing, but that whole ongoing trend of people idolizing Holly Golightly and the way that movie is, in the public imagination at this point, like, a copy of a copy of a copy of the actual work.

What I'm saying is, I don't think Peggy would name her cat after something some hooker in a movie named a cat.
posted by Sara C. at 9:36 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

And OF COURSE Tom & Lorenzo's main takeaway from the whole episode is that Bob is gay, and OF COURSE they're taking full credit for it as if they're the only people who saw it coming.

Meanwhile, Mad Men is totally on the nose, amirite?

Seriously they have a lack of understanding of how television works that disturbs me.
posted by Sara C. at 9:39 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

(By the way guys, I spent the weekend watching the first season of Deadwood, and the current level of cryptic that Mad Men is running on makes Deadwood look like Sesame Street.)
posted by Sara C. at 9:40 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete's got a certain moral farsight. He can be really progressive and prescient and insightful, but he's so grasping, self-indulgent and petulant that he'll never be able to make much use of the fact that he can read the writing on the wall. This may be a stretch, but he reminds me of JFK somewhat: a personally corrupt man who functioned much better on an objective level than he ever would in his private life.

And yeah, the whole TLO "WE WERE RIGHT ABOUT BOB BENSON BEING GAY" victory dance was just silly. Everyone thought it was highly probable, guys. You're letting all this internet attention go to your heads.
posted by orange swan at 9:42 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

And OF COURSE Tom & Lorenzo's main takeaway from the whole episode is that Bob is gay, and OF COURSE they're taking full credit for it as if they're the only people who saw it coming.

And, I mean, it still hasn't been established that he actually is gay. He may have been attempting to entrap and blackmail Pete once it became apparent that the scheme to get his mother to bequeath her (unbeknownst to him, nonexistent) fortune to a gigolo wasn't going to work out.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:44 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

BTW my take on the Pete's mom/Manolo thing was that probably he gave her a back rub or something and she accidentally had her first ever orgasm. And she's completely unable to fit that into any kind of Appropriate 60s Relationships framework, yet also completely unable to self-censor.
posted by Sara C. at 9:44 AM on June 10, 2013

Did Don leave his keys in the door when he came home after getting caught by Sally?
posted by drezdn at 9:44 AM on June 10, 2013

Did Don leave his keys in the door when he came home after getting caught by Sally?

I noticed that! It's just a sloppy cut. You don't see him pull the keys out, but they're jingling in his hand afterward. (I'm pretty sure...)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:46 AM on June 10, 2013

Sara C.: "Am I the only one who saw Jonesy handing out keys willy nilly and thought, "Well, yeah, no wonder someone broke in...""

Jonesy is like a bizarre homage to Joe E. Ross.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:49 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

A thought about doormen, New York, the 60s, urban blight, etc. in general:

It just dawned on me that, before the 70's, rich people in New York had doormen to facilitate their lives. Call me a cab, sign for my packages, let my kid into the apartment when she forgets her key.

Now people have doormen to act as a gatekeeper, and to an extent as security. The whole POINT of a doorman now is that they'd never let anyone into your apartment, or even give someone access to the building beyond the lobby. When I've visited doorman buildings in New York, usually they want to call up to the apartment and announce my presence/ask if I'm expected. They still do all the package and cab stuff, of course, but there's an assumed security aspect to it that I just realized with this episode was not present, once upon a time.
posted by Sara C. at 10:00 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm not so much talking about the cat thing, but that whole ongoing trend of people idolizing Holly Golightly and the way that movie is, in the public imagination at this point, like, a copy of a copy of a copy of the actual work.

Did you read Fifth Avenue, 5 am about the making of the movie? I really loved it.

Also yea agreed Peggy wouldn't idolize Holly.
posted by sweetkid at 10:01 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

No but that sounds right up my alley.
posted by Sara C. at 10:01 AM on June 10, 2013

I see what you did there.
posted by sweetkid at 10:02 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

How did you guys take Don doing a favor for Mitchell?

I keep seeing recappers say that it was a sympathetic and generous thing to do. But I can't help but think it was either done out of guilt for fucking the kid's mother or the hope that it would lead to EXACTLY what it led to -- Sylvia letting him back in.

A lot of Don's behavior re Mitchell being 1A reminded me of his behavior during the riot episode, where he doesn't really give a shit about anything but is worried about Sylvia in DC. For example my read of the Chevy dinner was that the one guy said something about Ontario and he just completely forgot he was at a business dinner and felt an uncontrollable urge to unburden himself. I mean, it was alluded to that people at Chevy could pull strings, but I think that if Don was in control of himself he would know that bringing it up in the middle of dinner wouldn't be the way to facilitate that.
posted by Sara C. at 10:07 AM on June 10, 2013

I completely think he did it for Sylvia. I feel like the show made this super clear during his dialogue with Sylvia, dialogue with Ted. He didn't even tell Megan about it. I don't know where the recappers are coming from thinking he was doing a nice thing.
posted by sweetkid at 10:10 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

A lot of Don's behavior re Mitchell being 1A reminded me of his behavior during the riot episode, where he doesn't really give a shit about anything but is worried about Sylvia in DC

This is exactly how I saw it. I never got the feeling that Don had a great love for Megan, but that she offered what he needed at the time. For whatever reason, he is besotted with Sylvia. And he also likes and admires her husband. This will cause him to become unhinged.
posted by readery at 10:11 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I agree that Peggy wouldn't identify with Holly Golightly. I was, instead, thinking Peggy's cat looking like Holly's might have been some kind of meta reference. Holly was a prostitute and a renter who "doesn't know who she is", her cat is a kind of symbol for herself (i.e., she says they're both "no name slobs" and she won't name him until she finds herself with the life she thinks she's supposed to have), and the relationship she winds up with is presented as being her salvation; Peggy has a legitimate career, owns the apartment building she lives in, she grows more confident in her abilities all the time, her cat is a solution to a specific problem the men in her life were no use in solving, and any relationship she winds up in is going to be just a part of her already nearly full life, not its sole purpose.
posted by orange swan at 10:11 AM on June 10, 2013

But I can't help but think it was either done out of guilt for fucking the kid's mother or the hope that it would lead to EXACTLY what it led to -- Sylvia letting him back in.

That was my take, too. Although it was less manic, of course, his obsession with it reminded me of his fixation on winning Sylvia back in "The Crash."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:12 AM on June 10, 2013

I was thinking Peggy's cat looking like Holly's might have been some kind of meta reference.

Could be, but cats on film tend to be either black, orange tabby, or seal point Siamese because those markings make it a bit easier to pass one stunt cat off as another. So, you have three cats that do three different tricks, all playing the same feline character.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:17 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

I keep seeing recappers say that it was a sympathetic and generous thing to do. But I can't help but think it was either done out of guilt for fucking the kid's mother or the hope that it would lead to EXACTLY what it led to -- Sylvia letting him back in.

This, this, this. I mean, the kid basically already had a sure deal through Megan, and Don immediately put the kibosh on that. Why else but to play hero himself?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:17 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]

Oh, and Sally's interest in Model UN totally vindicates my Sally Draper = Ina Garten theory.

She's going to Dartmouth to major in Poli Sci, after which she'll become a think tank policy wonk specializing in something really Cold War ish. She marries an investment banker. After the Berlin Wall comes down, she "retires" to run a catering company in the Hamptons.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

Agreed about Don's motives re: Sylvia, but I also feel like he approached the string-pulling awkwardly because he's timid and naive about it. There are aspects of having power that Don's never become comfortable with, and part of that is stumbling bass-ackwards into even knowing who to ask. Not that Pete isn't an obvious early target, but that he had to be pushed into thinking of the Chevy guys at all.

Don and Pete and Pete's friend at the DOD is yet another callback I didn't expect, and it's striking in light of the callback that Pete is totally dismissive of Don. Once again, as orange swan pointed out above, Pete is the dude who has a perfect read of the general situation, but is blind to the things closest to him -- hence why he was one of the first in the office to stop taking Don seriously, though he might still take him seriously enough to enact petty revenge for Don ignoring him at the damn margarine meeting. He recognizes Don's checked-out irrelevance, but he's still way too Pete to 100% stop caring about his approval, if only as a gauge of how the senior partners treat him.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:22 AM on June 10, 2013

the kid basically already had a sure deal through Megan

Yeah, but I can see how Don's deal is better than Megan's deal. I think life was pretty hard for a nineteen year old draft dodger.

Also, people were angry about draft dodging for decades after the war -- I remember hearing people ranting about it when I was a kid in the 80's. I can't imagine how serious it must have been taken at the height of everything.

I also think it's an interesting contrast to Don's own past. In a way, the only altruistic part of what he did was to prevent Mitchell from spending the rest of his life on the run, replicating his mistakes.
posted by Sara C. at 10:26 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

part of that is stumbling bass-ackwards into even knowing who to ask. Not that Pete isn't an obvious early target, but that he had to be pushed into thinking of the Chevy guys at all.

Sure, but I think even Don knows that you don't blurt it out at dinner. You share a cab with one of them or corner one of them at the coat check and unburden yourself in a subtle type manner.

Don shat all over that dinner, and he didn't have to, and he should have known he didn't have to whether he's good at working his connections or not. It's not at all surprising that Ted would suspect sabotage.

It's also an interesting contrast to Joan's meetings with Avon last week. Suddenly her "Oh I uh well I'm really good at anticipating stuff" doesn't look so bad.

In personal news I had a meeting this week where I had to talk about my work and what I do, and I TOTALLY Joaned. It was the worst. I knew I was doing it as it happened, too!
posted by Sara C. at 10:29 AM on June 10, 2013 [5 favorites]

(I also think Pete makes the right call, and isn't just being self-pitying, when he tells Peggy that she's more "important" in the company than he is. He's a partner and a major accounts presence, sure, but he knows he's not taken seriously. A company's emotional functioning isn't always reflected in the titles and numbers. Peggy is still a central creative force, for all that it falls to her to quietly salvage Royal Hawaiian in the support-column office while Don and Ted lock horns like majestic stags.)

ALSO, Pete has switched from the abundant Cocoa Puffs of eternal childhood to the empty Raisin Bran of adult melancholy.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:31 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]

But then again, it's not until Dr. Rosen calls his son "soft" that Don has his about-face re: helping Mitchell.

Also, people were angry about draft dodging for decades after the war -- I remember hearing people ranting about it when I was a kid in the 80's. I can't imagine how serious it must have been taken at the height of everything.

That may be the case south of the border, but, well, a lot of draft dodgers still live in Canada. Several of my friends' fathers were draft dodgers. The life isn't one of living on the lam, but rather of getting on with their lives as normal in a very slightly different country. And, hey, any life is more than they might've had otherwise.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:31 AM on June 10, 2013

I've Joaned too. Not in a job interview but I've definitely Joaned. That's how you know it when you see it - it is bad!

(I'm sure you did fine).

But yea agreed Don screwed up at that meeting.
posted by sweetkid at 10:32 AM on June 10, 2013

All I remember hearing about Vietnam as a kid in the 80s was that people spit on the soldiers as they were coming home. I've always considered myself a liberal but I have this sort of visceral dislike for the whole idea of "hippies" - in my mind they were fakey fakers who didn't really care about anything, like really, and ended up thinking Manson was cool or getting jobs when they got off all the drugs. Like the whole image of a chick on drugs waving flowers and saying "peace, man" when I don't think they were thinking about napalmed Vietnamese children at all.

That said I wasn't raised by American born boomers so didn't have much context outside media. My friends' parents weren't exactly "gather round, children and hear about Vietnam..."
posted by sweetkid at 10:35 AM on June 10, 2013

This, this, this. I mean, the kid basically already had a sure deal through Megan, and Don immediately put the kibosh on that. Why else but to play hero himself?

Right, I was just about to say joining the National Guards would be a better long-term solution, because it was the "honourable", legal way out — if Mitchell ran off to Canada, he'd be spending his life as an exile as far as they knew.

I think Don's motives for helping Mitchell were probably complex. I mean, there's a lot going on there. Don seems to genuinely like and care about Arnold; he probably also really does care about Sylvia and he knows how much she loves her son. It's also likely there's at least some self-interested hope that there will be a payoff for him when Sylvia's feeling grateful. And then there's his feelings regarding his own desertion; Don probably genuinely doesn't want to see an innocent young man doomed to experiencing what he himself ran away from and to spending his life on the run, particularly when he himself believes the Vietnam war is wrong. This all quite reasonably adds up to, "I have to do something."

It's too simplistic to say Don saved Mitchell to be nice, and too unfair to say he only did it to be able to screw Sylvia again.
posted by orange swan at 10:40 AM on June 10, 2013 [17 favorites]

It's not at all surprising that Ted would suspect sabotage.

Especially if Ted knows about Jaguar, as he probably does. Don is building up a great history of shitting on client dinners.
posted by thesmallmachine at 10:41 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also Ted just really wants to make out with him.
posted by sweetkid at 10:43 AM on June 10, 2013

Sys Rq, to clarify I'm not personally against draft dodging at all and bear no ill will towards people who did it.

But compare spending one weekend a month learning to fly planes and being forced to have a square haircut to living illegally* in a different country without the ability to go home or be in contact with your family. I know that draft dodging worked out OK for people, but at the time it was a pretty dire thing to do. Regardless of the moral aspects.

Also, Don et al don't have the benefit of our hindsight, so for all they know the draft dodgers will be persona non grata forever and spend their lives evading the feds. There's nothing wrong with living in Canada, but if Canada hadn't welcomed them, the situation could have been really bad.

*This would be illegal, right? I mean did the draft dodgers undergo official immigration to Canada, or did they just cross the border and not go home?
posted by Sara C. at 10:43 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I've always considered myself a liberal but I have this sort of visceral dislike for the whole idea of "hippies" - in my mind they were fakey fakers who didn't really care about anything, like really, and ended up thinking Manson was cool or getting jobs when they got off all the drugs. Like the whole image of a chick on drugs waving flowers and saying "peace, man" when I don't think they were thinking about napalmed Vietnamese children at all.

FWIW I think you might be confusing hippies and anti-war activists, here. There absolutely WERE people who were against the war on principled grounds and who endured a lot in service to their beliefs. There were people who protested the draft and went to jail over it.

Hippies were just counterculture kids. I think the general vibe was for liberalness and being against the war/against war in general, but it was not an explicit principled Here Are My Political Thoughts kind of thing. It's a little like how over and over we assume that Geek culture is liberal and socially enlightened and then women get sexually harassed at comic con.

I've always been curious where the "spitting on soldiers" trope came from, and whether it's an urban legend or rooted in something real. From where I stand I don't think people treated returning Vietnam vets badly at all, on a personal level. They just weren't considered the conquering heroes that, say, WWII vets were. Because the culture had changed, and the nature of the war was different. Also I think that the government did not do right by the veterans, but that's something you can lay directly at the feet of Republicans so I don't know where it fits in the jingoistic "spitting on soldiers" narrative.
posted by Sara C. at 10:51 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

FWIW I think you might be confusing hippies and anti-war activists, here.

I know there were legit anti war activists but think my comment definitely conflated them with hippies because I suddenly got on 'and another thing! damn hippies!'

And yeah I have also heard no one really spit on the soldiers, it was just probably my first exposure to people's feelings on Vietnam.

That said, as a society we still treat all veterans like crap, even if we cheer them when first home. Veterans' services, PTSD treatment is abysmal.
posted by sweetkid at 10:56 AM on June 10, 2013

Manual For Draft-Age Immigrants To Canada
posted by Sara C. at 10:58 AM on June 10, 2013

Wikipedia's entry on the role Canada and Canadians played in the Vietnam war is interesting. Apparently Canadian immigration policies of the late sixties and early seventies made it easy for draft dodgers to obtain citizenship if they wanted it. It also says about half of the draft dodgers that escaped to Canada settled permanently in Canada; the other half returned after Jimmy Carter pardoned deserters in 1977. There were also deserters who escaped to Canada and who eventually worked out their legal problems, and who can now safely travel to the U.S.
posted by orange swan at 10:59 AM on June 10, 2013

Yes, the "returning Vietnam vets were spat upon" looks like it was basically an urban legend. Not to say it never happened ever anywhere, but evidence is non-existent.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:20 AM on June 10, 2013

Sylvia saying something like "I've been so bad to you, and you've been so good to me" was on the nose, but was exactly what Don was looking for.

The most heart-breaking thing about the Pete/Bob thing is that Bob sees and admires in Pete the things that Pete wishes everyone else saw in him: how hard he works, strives, how he tries to keep the firm's ship floating, despite his unlikability. All qualities, we see Bob attempting to emulate and aspire to.

But this is a man who he accompanied to a brothel, and one who A SENTENCE PRIOR called homosexuals degenerates! Oh Bob.
posted by stratastar at 2:23 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

James Wolk did a great job in that scene. It could have been so cheesy, or dull, or just weird.

Also T&Lo - can't believe how they think they "called it" on Bob being gay. Ridiculous. I admit when I heard he was cast I thought about how he played Grant, the gay boyfriend everyone liked on Happy Endings and wondered if he was brought on to play gay again as that seems to happen often enough.

Also Pete's 'degenerate' line - it was hard to hear, but I'm not sure it was hearfelt. As we can see two minutes later when he was like, "maybe?"
posted by sweetkid at 2:30 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Degeneracy is a product of the times. What would be weird is if characters took homosexuality in stride. If I remember correctly, Sal spoke the same way. It was a sad and awful time.
posted by readery at 2:34 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

TL did mention one thing that I haven't seen in other reviews that rings true, Bob seems a lot more enmeshed into a " gay culture" and self aware where Sal was so deeply closeted and self-loathing I still hold out that's he's a virgin.
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

yea I agree, that makes sense
posted by sweetkid at 2:49 PM on June 10, 2013

seems a lot more enmeshed into a " gay culture"

Where the fuck are they getting that?

I agree that Bob seems more self-aware, and is clearly referring to some kind of past relationship with the "sometimes, when someone really cares for you like a whole lot, it doesn't matter who they are" thing, but it's not like he had a Barbra Streisand poster on his office wall or anything.

I also don't know that he seems more In Tune With Gay Culture than Sal did (I mean, cottaging existed in the early 60's, too), but from information that we know from outside the show, it's true that Gay Culture was a different thing by the late 60's. I don't think Sal was a virgin by any means but I agree that he was closeted in a different and much more ironclad way than Bob is.
posted by Sara C. at 3:14 PM on June 10, 2013

Right Pete's comment may have been read by Bob as half-hearted / of the common vernacular of the age(thus cutting its edge to our ears). I can't say, or know.

But as Pete is often used as a foil to indicate cultural change* something has changed. I don't think this will lead to Pete getting Bob fired like Sal was.

*A wake to Don's speedboat
posted by stratastar at 3:14 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re-watching, Pete was surrounded by homoerotic nods the whole episode -- not only Bob's knee move and Manolo checking out his ass, but also Peggy joking that Pete's in love with Ted, and Pete wryly replying that, well, he could use an account and Ted's been generous. I'm assuming that she's talking about Pete's oddly boyish good cheer during the same conversation, as I don't think we've ever seen Ted and Pete directly interacting before. (He really did have a flirtatious vibe with Ted, but then all three of them were flirting with each other throughout -- they're coming close to consummating a new client relationship and they're happy to let it go to their heads.)

Also, I don't think this is super-important, but Peggy drops a conspicuous "I do" to Pete's "you really know me" -- it reminds me of her "I do" to Abe when he asked her to live with him, and Don's reply to Aimee (admittedly, a generic Draperism in response to any "do you..." question). On a show where everyone's always rushing into marriages and relationships and mergers, I guess it's no surprise that this is a common linguistic tic, but it points to the web of work-marriages that connects all the characters by now.
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:17 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think part of it comes out of the implication that Bob knows at least one other gay person.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2013

But Sal wasn't fired for being gay, per se. Don knew Sal was gay long before he was fired. Sal was fired for not cooperating with Horrible Lucky Strike Asshole.

Basically, he was fired for refusing to do what Joan ultimately did.
posted by Sara C. at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think part of it comes out of the implication that Bob knows at least one other gay person.

I'll just remind everyone that we actually saw Sal hook up with a dude. Who was presumably also gay.

We also saw Sal on a date, of sorts, with another gay man. Who he knew to be gay.

We also saw Sal test the waters of whether Ken might be gay.
posted by Sara C. at 3:19 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think part of it comes out of the implication that Bob knows at least one other gay person.

Yeah this is closer to what I was trying to say.
posted by The Whelk at 3:21 PM on June 10, 2013

Also it is a nice touch that Peggy calls Manolo "Manuel."
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:22 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think what is actually implied with Bob isn't so much that Bob has had sex and/or knows other gay people (both were true of Sal), but that he has at least one relationship in his past.

If Sal had a former lover or partner, we never knew about it. He certainly never confided as much to any other character on the show. But Bob seems somewhat comfortable implying to an obviously straight guy that he has a romantic past that isn't entirely heterosexual.

I also think it's significant that Bob's revelation is made in the context of love, whereas Sal's entire outing arc is in the context of casual sex.
posted by Sara C. at 3:24 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I guess what I'm getting at is that Bob, for all his brief scenes, doesn't seem to be a bottomless well of self-loathing.
posted by The Whelk at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

You can actually pinpoint the moment where his heart rips in half.
posted by crossoverman at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh, yes, that FOR SURE. (which, on preview, is a reply to The Whelk.)
posted by Sara C. at 3:26 PM on June 10, 2013

I guess what I'm getting at is that Bob, for all his brief scenes, doesn't seem to be a bottomless well of self-loathing.

But he may be a bottom.
posted by crossoverman at 3:27 PM on June 10, 2013

Yes, that, Bob can kind of hint that he's had actual same sex relationships, whereas Sal was just involved in casual, furtive sex, which is actually a huge change in how gay men where able to conceptualizer thier interpersonal lives. ( I mean there are always exceptions, Joan Crawford successfully petitioned her Beverly Hills neighborhood board to allow her best friend and his partner to buy a house there...in the 40s, but not everything happens all at once uniformly.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:28 PM on June 10, 2013

( Edmund White wrote about hiw thrilling and exciting and transgressive it felt to be a gay owned resteraunt in the village in the 60s, like on an actual date, well into his late 20s, cause previously his only experience had been hiring prostitutes, rough trade, and the like. The idea that you could have a romantic date with another guy in public was so totally alien to him. Actually White's autobio is a good guide to gay life in NYC in the 60s. The Seven Year Itch could joke about " two designers who live upstairs" but that was what it was, a joke.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:34 PM on June 10, 2013

Today I learned, or possibly re-learned, that The Beautiful Room Is Empty is a novel, not a memoir.

Either way, folks, if you like this stuff, read The Beautiful Room Is Empty. So good.
posted by Sara C. at 3:42 PM on June 10, 2013

But if you forgo his memoir you miss all the " I had totally consensual sex with my grandfather" stuff.
posted by The Whelk at 3:45 PM on June 10, 2013

Yeah I just don't know what to do with that at all. And yet I would possibly still read his memoir.
posted by Sara C. at 3:48 PM on June 10, 2013

I think part of it comes out of the implication that Bob knows at least one other gay person.

I'll just remind everyone that we actually saw Sal hook up with a dude. Who was presumably also gay.

We also saw Sal on a date, of sorts, with another gay man. Who he knew to be gay.

We also saw Sal test the waters of whether Ken might be gay.

I think T&Lo's argument is that Bob not only knows a gay person but may be connected to the gay community, while Sal isn't. Those other gay men Sal knew? Let's see: a bell hop, whom he would never see again; the Belle Jolie lipstick account rep, from whom he ran away in fear; Ken Cosgrove, who is not gay and to whom Sal never gave an indication of being gay; and that asshole Lee Garner Jr., who put the moves on him and then got him fired when Sal wouldn't play ball. Sal does not have gay friends so far as we know. By contrast, we have Bob's putting in a word for Manolo to get him a job, and since we know there's something hinky going on about Bob's story that Manolo "nursed his father back to health" when he'd previously said his father was dead, the reality may be that Bob and Manolo are former lovers, friends, or have otherwise become acquainted through the larger social circle of gay men, i.e., Manolo may have nursed an older gay man Bob knows.

Bob is closeted, but seemingly for reasons of pragmatism rather than because he can't accept that he's gay and/or hates himself for being gay, which is miles ahead of where Sal was. I still hate that Sal ran away from the Belle Jolie guy, who seemed to be a genuinely sweet person (i.e., he bore no grudge against Sal for rejecting him, probably because he knew Sal did it out of fear). Sal missed out on what would have probably been a really positive experience or relationship, and it was heartbreaking.
posted by orange swan at 4:19 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

may be connected to the gay community, while Sal isn't.

But we don't actually know this from the show.

What we know is that Bob alluded to a previous same-sex relationship in a conversation with a straight guy.

Which I agree is HUGE. And is not something that Sal could have done in 1962.

But I think to jump from there to him being part of a wider gay culture that Sal was not part of, I just don't think those are assumptions we can make. Nor are they assumptions that are interesting to make in light of the far more interesting things that are actually on the screen. Which is where I tend to depart from Tom & Lorenzo on most things. Lately they seem so much more interested in things that aren't really there, and distracted from talking about what actually is there.

There's no textual evidence that Bob and Sal have different relationships to gay culture. There's TONS of evidence that Bob and Sal have different ways of understanding their sexuality, different feelings about it, different levels of openness, and different ways of relating to straight/mainstream culture. And that's HUGE.

Sal missed out on what would have probably been a really positive experience or relationship, and it was heartbreaking.

FWIW I'm pretty sure Bob wouldn't engage in a relationship with a client, either. Though I guess he's making sort of a pass at Pete here, which is a comparable level of shitting where you eat? I'm not sure that's related to how open he is about being gay, in any event.
posted by Sara C. at 4:32 PM on June 10, 2013

I still read Bob's overtures as naked power plays but that's just cause I can't imagine someone falling for that hairline.
posted by The Whelk at 4:43 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

But I think to jump from there to him being part of a wider gay culture that Sal was not part of, I just don't think those are assumptions we can make. Nor are they assumptions that are interesting to make in light of the far more interesting things that are actually on the screen. Which is where I tend to depart from Tom & Lorenzo on most things. Lately they seem so much more interested in things that aren't really there, and distracted from talking about what actually is there.

While I agree with you about T&L, I gotta disagree with you here. It's not that Bob implied that he's been in a relationship with Manolo--it's that he implied that he knows about Manolo's sexuality. Which implies some sense of community, friendship, openness (not necessarily that he dated Manolo himself), all of which we know that Sal wouldn't have had with another man during his tenure on the show.

Manolo.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:46 PM on June 10, 2013

It's not that Bob implied that he's been in a relationship with Manolo--it's that he implied that he knows about Manolo's sexuality. Which implies some sense of community, friendship, openness (not necessarily that he dated Manolo himself), all of which we know that Sal wouldn't have had with another man during his tenure on the show.

No, we don't know that about Sal at all.

All we really know is that Sal wasn't free to make implications about this sort of thing to straight people, or to talk openly about any of this in public, with anyone, ever.

Which, to me, says a lot more about the two characters, the times, queer consciousness, etc. than who has more gay friends or likes Judy Garland more or is more sexually experienced or whatever.
posted by Sara C. at 5:05 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

No, we don't know that about Sal at all.

Yes, we do.

We actually saw Sal's (completely repressed) home life, and his (likewise repressed, dysfunctional, and scared) interactions with other gay men. His life might have changed around the time he was cruising in the park at the end of his tenure on the show, but I feel pretty safe asserting that he didn't have gay companions and therefore likely had absolutely nothing to do with larger gay culture throughout most of the early series.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:43 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Of course we can't be positive that Sal didn't know any other gay men and we can't be positive that Bob does, but judging from the text it seems very likely that this is the way it was.

Sal actively pretended to be straight and married a woman. In every case where he's seen interacting with a gay man, he's terribly frightened. Does that indicate a guy who has any gay friends to you?

Bob, by contrast, knows this man Manolo and recommends him for a job and — this is important — he also knows that Manolo is gay (when Pete complains Manolo has taken advantage of his mother, Bob says something like, "His tastes don't run in that direction"). Manolo is from a different culture than Bob, and is doing what would be considered a menial job while Bob is white collar. Does it seem likely to you that these two men would have met and become friends, or at least gotten to know each other well enough for Bob to know Manolo is gay, under normal circumstances in the sixties, and if they did, why did Bob lie about how he met him? It seems clear to me that Bob had to have met Manolo through some sort of gay scene circumstance, either through hooking up themselves at a gay bar (and how likely would Bob have been to have kept in touch with him given that scenario?), or as seems more likely, through mutual gay friends or acquaintances.
posted by orange swan at 6:17 PM on June 10, 2013

We actually saw Sal's (completely repressed) home life

But that was after he married. Now, of course, the difference between a world where gay men feel the need to get married and a world where they don't is HUGE. This is what I mean by talking about the interesting stuff that is actually on the screen rather than some bizarre extrapolation about "gay culture".

and his (likewise repressed, dysfunctional, and scared) interactions with other gay men.

What interactions with other gay men did we see besides encounters with gay clients (not a good idea, regardless of orientation), the bellhop (completely based around sex, but otherwise not dysfunctional), and the time he had a crush on Ken (can definitely still happen even in 2013)? I mean, I'm happy to admit it if I'm missing a big Sal escapade that proved that he didn't know other gay people, didn't have access to gay culture, etc.

I think one thing that is getting talked past here is that gay culture definitely existed prior to the mid 60's. It was, in a lot of ways, a culture of shame, repression, and fear. That's something that started to change in Bob's generation, and I think Mad Men's depiction of those subtle changes, even pre-stonewall, is incredibly interesting. However, I think that by pretending said culture didn't exist, or that dysfunctional gay people were by definition not part of gay culture, it sort of erases the interesting thing the show is doing.

Especially since we don't really see who Sal is within gay culture outside of work before he gets married. For all we know, Sal and Bob have very similar personal histories. But what's difference is their ability to talk about those histories outside of extremely cloistered spaces. Sal never in a million years would have felt comfortable hanging out with Joan socially without needing to make it a big sexual pantomime -- hell, one of Sal and Joan's few interactions on the show is a big sexual pantomime. In contrast, Bob seems completely open with her. I mean, who knows how much Bob's told her, but you don't see that tight vigilant "I better act like a macho asshole or someone might figure it out" thing that Sal had going on.
posted by Sara C. at 6:18 PM on June 10, 2013

and I think Mad Men's depiction of those subtle changes, even pre-stonewall, is incredibly interesting.

I think we all fundamentally agree on this, cause it is super interesting and the huge changes starting to happen in queer confusion ess where just reeving up. ( poor Kurt, too much of an outsider to warrant notice " you don't know what you're saying" )
posted by The Whelk at 6:23 PM on June 10, 2013

Or Peggy's Time Life photo editor editor.
posted by The Whelk at 6:23 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

In every case where he's seen interacting with a gay man, he's terribly frightened.

In public, you mean.

I mean, we don't see Sal hanging out with non-work friends. We don't see Sal in a gay bar. We don't see Sal with his college roommate, or taking drawing classes in the Village, or in any of the (somewhat) safe places that absolutely did exist for men like Sal in the late 50's and early 60's.

Now, it could be true that Sal is simply so self-hating that he can't ever participate in any of that. But there were plenty of men like Sal who did. We just don't see enough of his private life to know.

But what we do see with both Sal and Bob is their different way of behaving in public and among presumably straight people who for professional reasons they can't be completely open with. And in those situations, as you guys say, the contrasts are fascinating. Because you absolutely can see the difference that a few years makes. And you can see how Stonewall would happen just a year later.

And, again, the difference isn't the existence of homosexuality, or of gay culture, or of love between gay men. The difference is whether it's possible to be even the slightest bit open about that with people outside that world, as well as what the consequences are for the slightest slip-up on that front. There's a reason Sal got married, and it's not that he hates himself. It's that, with a wife, the pressure is off. Sal desperately needs to relieve that pressure. Bob doesn't. I find that so much more compelling than "Sal is dysfunctional" or "Bob is more a part of gay culture".
posted by Sara C. at 6:27 PM on June 10, 2013

However, I think that by pretending said culture didn't exist, or that dysfunctional gay people were by definition not part of gay culture, it sort of erases the interesting thing the show is doing.

Who is saying that gay culture didn't exist or that dysfunctional gay people were by definition not part of gay culture?
posted by orange swan at 6:28 PM on June 10, 2013

I don't know, Sara C. I usually find your readings of the show pretty astute, but I can't shake the feeling that you're not picking up on the broader implications about both characters' personal lives--what it meant for Sal to maintain that facade both at work and in public, what it means for Bob to drop casual references to knowledge about another man's sexuality. I agree that these also reflect the changing mores of the time, but everything about Sal's characterization suggested that he was deeply afraid of his own sexuality. In fact, if I remember correctly, his interaction with the lipstick rep suggested that at the time, he was a virgin.

And yes, we do see his private life; we see him in private with his wife, who was a childhood friend.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:29 PM on June 10, 2013 [6 favorites]

what it meant for Sal to maintain that facade both at work and in public, what it means for Bob to drop casual references to knowledge about another man's sexuality.

No, I absolutely know what it meant, which is why I'm trying to argue against Tom & Lorenzo's facile "Bob is obviously a kewl gay dude" analysis. There are huge differences, those differences are fascinating to think about, but they're not really about who has more access to gay culture or who is more self-hating.

In fact, if I remember correctly, his interaction with the lipstick rep suggested that at the time, he was a virgin.

I think this is where our takes diverge, because I don't think the show ever implied that at all. In fact, quite the opposite. And I think that to assume Sal is a virgin because he is not comfortable with his sexuality is an impediment to thinking deeply about how the show handles homosexuality.
posted by Sara C. at 6:33 PM on June 10, 2013

his interaction with the lipstick rep suggested that at the time, he was a virgin.

He was. In the commentary track for the episode with the incident with the bell hop, whoever commented on it was saying things like, "Poor Sal, it's his first time and it ends like this."

I think this is where our takes diverge, because I don't think the show ever implied that at all. In fact, quite the opposite.

I disagree that the show didn't imply it, and as the commentary I quoted from above stated, those who made the show intended it that way.

And I think that to assume Sal is a virgin because he is not comfortable with his sexuality is an impediment to thinking deeply about how the show handles homosexuality.

Nonsense. Sal is one gay man's experience. Each gay person on this show has a different story to tell us, and denying the narrative of any one character's experience isn't the way to "thinking deeply" about it.

In public, you mean.

How was the bellhop encounter public (pre-fire alarm, anyway)? And Sal was definitely very frightened or at least nervous.

And I just don't buy that Sal didn't take the Belle Jolie guy up on his offer because he was a client. Don got involved with plenty of clients. They just would have had to be very discreet, that's all, but as gay men they would have had to be discreet about all their relationships.

There are huge differences, those differences are fascinating to think about, but they're not really about who has more access to gay culture or who is more self-hating.

I find those differences to be very much a part of Sal and Bob's stories and the differences between them. Isolation and self-hatred are huge factors in closeted gay life in mid-century.
posted by orange swan at 6:39 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

whoever commented on it was saying things like, "Poor Sal, it's his first time and it ends like this."

OK, if this is actually true, and was said by a writer or Bryan Batt, I'll take it. It's not at all how I read the situation, but sure.

Isolation and self-hatred are huge factors in closeted gay life in mid-century.

I'm absolutely not saying they're not. I'm just saying that those aren't the primary contrasts between Bob and Sal, and in order to really say anything interesting about Sal's isolation and self-hatred in contrast to Bob, you have to add a lot to the text that (in my opinion, obvs) just isn't there.
posted by Sara C. at 6:44 PM on June 10, 2013

I think this is where our takes diverge, because I don't think the show ever implied that at all. In fact, quite the opposite. And I think that to assume Sal is a virgin because he is not comfortable with his sexuality is an impediment to thinking deeply about how the show handles homosexuality.

It's in "The Hobo Code."

"Elliot, I have thought about it. I know what I want. I know what I want to do."

"I know what you're thinking. I'll show you."

[Sal, firm head shake.]

"What are you afraid of?"

"Are you joking?"

And then he leaves.

It doesn't seem, at all, like the rejection comes because it's a business situation. I just rewatched the scene, and it's . . . really really clear that by "I'll show you," Elliot means he is willing to help him through the hiccups of a sexual interaction he has no experience with. And I don't think reading it that way is an impediment. It seems to be right there, in the text.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:44 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

"What are you afraid of?"

"Are you joking?"

I guess I just saw these as the key lines of dialogue, and not whether Sal has, like, specifically hooked up with a client during a business dinner in a public place where they've both been seen by people who might know Sal. Which, you know, would be an awful idea whether Sal was a virgin or not.

I can see that others are taking away that Sal was a virgin, and that maybe there was a commentary somewhere where this was implied by somebody, but it's absolutely not made clear, and I don't think it's terribly important.

Though I agree, if it's the case, it does make a strong point that Sal couldn't possibly have been part of gay culture in New York in the early 60's.
posted by Sara C. at 6:47 PM on June 10, 2013

I mean, I don't think TO's " Bob is a cool with it gay dude" is right or accurate, I just think we're seeing a different approach to queerness in Bob, in just that he's not totally, bone shatteringly terrified of it.
posted by The Whelk at 6:54 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Anyway long story short we're in one of the golden eras of Drag so I want to see some. So there,
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 PM on June 10, 2013

Change of subject!

Hey, how about that Meet The Chaoughs segment? Does that portend anything, like, "Ted's going to have a big ol' meltdown, and here are all the people it's going to affect," or is it just that he's in the main ensemble now so we see his homelife?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:59 PM on June 10, 2013

Oh, super agree on both counts, The Whelk.

I don't know about what Meet The Chaoughs portents for Ted, but is it just me or do I see Sally's surly blond future homecoming date in front of the TV?
posted by Sara C. at 7:01 PM on June 10, 2013

I think Sal's virginity was implied in that scene and then confirmed in the bellhop scene, not in dialogue necessarily but in the subtleties of the acting and direction.

(And Elliot tries to steer Sal to someplace private several times, to be fair.)

But I think it is an important character detail, though. It's telling of the generational divide, sure. Sal would never ever imply that he knew someone else wasn't into ladies because it might imply that he is not into ladies--not even when he starts to lose his composure because of his feelings for Ken. His whole persona was about upholding the closet, and Bob is likewise an actor of sorts but an entirely different sort of actor. It's not even a major question for him, to recommend another gay man for a job and then be like "Oh, he wouldn't hit on grandma campbell. He doesn't swing that way."

I found his speech to Pete interesting, incidentally. It's not clear whether he's appealing to Pete's sense of importance, casting Pete as the caretaker and himself as Pete's mom--or if he's saying that he thinks Pete is in love with him because he's taken such good care of him.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:02 PM on June 10, 2013

Sal would never ever imply that he knew someone else wasn't into ladies because it might imply that he is not into ladies--not even when he starts to lose his composure because of his feelings for Ken. His whole persona was about upholding the closet, and Bob is likewise an actor of sorts but an entirely different sort of actor. It's not even a major question for him, to recommend another gay man for a job and then be like "Oh, he wouldn't hit on grandma campbell. He doesn't swing that way."

Oh, for sure, and this is exactly what I was talking about when I was saying that deciding that Bob is a cool-and-with-it gay dude and Sal was a self-hating and dysfunctional gay dude ignores a lot of the really awesome nuance.

Like, Bob is definitely still in the closet, here. He's not running around SC&P saying HEY EVERYBODY I'M GAY WOOOOOOOOOOOO. But he can sort of nudge around it and talk about homosexuality in general without crashing and burning.
posted by Sara C. at 7:15 PM on June 10, 2013

I can see that others are taking away that Sal was a virgin, and that maybe there was a commentary somewhere where this was implied by somebody, but it's absolutely not made clear

You're claiming that others are making assumptions without textual evidence to support them, but to me it seems like you're the one who is determined to ignore the textual and other evidence for the facts of the narrative. I mean, I told you that I heard in a commentary track that the bellhop incident was explicitly described as "Sal's first time", and you describe this as "maybe there was a commentary somewhere where this was implied by somebody". I mean... really?

I've looked at the DVD, and there were two commentary tracks for that episode (season 3, episode 1, "Out of Town"). Bryan Batt and some of the other actors were one one, and Matthew Weiner and some of the other key production people were on the other. It was definitely stated on of those tracks that it was Sal's first time, though I don't recall which one. And then there's the Belle Jolie guy conversation. You're claiming that "I don't think the show ever implied that [Sal's virginity] at all. In fact, quite the opposite." But you don't give any evidence for that. If you don't think Sal's experience or lack thereof is important, fine, but why argue the point against all evidence?

You're also mischaracterizing Tom and Lorenzo's arguments unfairly. Here's what they said:

Bob comes across “culturally gay,” as in, he isn’t like Sal Romano, who was a totally closeted gay man. His friendship with Manolo indicates someone who socializes in the gay community (such as it was in 1968)

I don't see how this was in any way incorrect or how it can be fairly characterized as "Bob is a totally cool and with-it gay dude".
posted by orange swan at 7:15 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I think T&L are really spot on here. It's such a small, telling detail, but it kind of speaks the world about the cultural differences between the two characters, and the company they keep. I say that kind of grudgingly, too. You know what I've thought of their commentary this season. But I think they're absolutely right about this.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:19 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

I don't really see that their is anything to be read into the Meet The Chaoughs bit. It was a clear contrast with Don. Ted has the same distractions and opportunities (ie with Peggy), but his actions drive home the fact that these people have a choice about which path they follow.

Don's inner rot is all the more sharp because he has stated before he holds to that view. You make your own luck. He understands he has a choice, but he's so broken he can't bring himself to make the right one.

If there is anything dark implied in Ted's home life, it's how it contrasts with his weird angsting over connecting with Don.
posted by dry white toast at 7:54 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also, Ted's spending a lot of time at work feels like a genuine effort to build something, whereas Don is avoiding going home.
posted by dry white toast at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

I loved that Ted really listened to his wife and she to him, that they were actually communicating about their differences and getting down to what really mattered. And then that he showed a willingness to make some changes by coming home somewhat earlier the next night — if not in time for dinner, at least in time to put his sons to bed.

his weird angsting over connecting with Don

My best guess as to what is going on there is that Ted's a guy who is very used to having good working relationships and to being on top of situations and that it bothers him that there's this dark horse in the firm who just does his own thing. His response to that is to try to tame and manage Don, to try and get him to work in harness with the others. And good luck with that, Ted. I mean, you seem like a pretty good guy who theoretically could show Don how to be a different kind of alpha male, but you know what happened the last time Don met a successful, decent man he admired? He banged the guy's wife.
posted by orange swan at 8:10 PM on June 10, 2013 [6 favorites]

I don't really see that their is anything to be read into the Meet The Chaoughs bit. It was a clear contrast with Don. Ted has the same distractions and opportunities (ie with Peggy), but his actions drive home the fact that these people have a choice about which path they follow.

Yeah also Nan and Ted had a normal healthy conversation about the state of their relationship and their individual frustrations...unlike...basically everyone else on this show.
posted by sweetkid at 8:11 PM on June 10, 2013

where are the music links here? Sheesh.... so, I give high marks for including this in the Tale of Two Cities episode.... The Fly-Bi-Nights, Found Love.
posted by wallstreet1929 at 9:26 PM on June 10, 2013

I haven't seen any discussion on what TV shows the characters were watching this week - there was something playing at the Draper apartment early in the episode and later, there's something playing at the Chaoughs that is also playing at the Drapers? Any ideas?
posted by crossoverman at 10:11 PM on June 10, 2013

OK, if this is actually true, and was said by a writer or Bryan Batt, I'll take it.

Hey! How come when I brought up two actors' commentaries last week in defense of my position, it got me nowhere? :)

But in seriousness, Sara C, you criticized TLo,
Lately they seem so much more interested in things that aren't really there, and distracted from talking about what actually is there
but it seems to me that's what you're doing, positing possible offscreen scenarios beyond what we see on the screen (e.g. a contrasting private life for Sal never suggested or alluded to in the show), in order to support your takeaway.

Sal's gradual acceptance of his own homosexuality was pretty slowly and clearly laid out over many episodes, starting (in his personal chronology) with the explanation of his marriage growing out of a childhood friendship, suggesting he didn't have an active gay life before marriage or marry Kitty as a beard. Up to the time of the show he had simply conformed to the expectation of heterosexual marriage--and clearly he thought he had a good one with Kitty. I am not sure that he even realized the full nature of his attraction to Ken Cosgrove at the time of the dinner; remember the bedroom scene afterwards, when he's acting out "Bye bye birdie," and Kitty's lying in bed with that "Oh. Shit." expression while Sal himself is completely oblivious?

Then as has been said above you have the Belle Jolie guy whom he ran from in fear even though that guy was a catch and Sal clearly liked him; then the bellhop (with the pen bursting as a funny symbol of an overexcited virgin); then the Lucky Strike jerk that led to his firing. And finally, the park cruising, which suggests that at this point he clearly knows what he wants and is willing to get it, but is not tied in with any social scene where he could pursue it in a less furtive and anonymous way.

Obviously I had the same feeling last week, when you were suggesting activity that could have been going on behind the scenes but with no textual evidence that it was. So much on Mad Men does happen offscreen, or is communicated in elliptical exchanges on screen, that scenes often lend themselves to differing interpretations. However I think that as the story progresses each season, a lot of the ambiguity clears up, and it becomes evident what's been going on all along.
posted by torticat at 10:57 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

Catching up...

The Whelk:
Unless..Bob is ...actually in love with Pete.
*shudder*

Hm, I think he actually is in love with Pete. I had thought that would explain why he's been hanging around downstairs, but then I realized Pete's office is upstairs (duh). Now I want to go back and rewatch all the previous scenes with the two of them. It seemed like Bob was kind of tailing Pete for a while there, waiting for him in the brothel (and offering to pay, wtf), buying him TP for his bachelor pad. Also, he did speak well of Pete to Joan. But the main thing is, why would he make a pass at Pete if he weren't genuinely interested? What would the objective be in alienating Pete? Especially after just recently ingratiating himself with Pete by recommending the nurse.

He hasn't actually said "I'm gay." We've never seen him in a pitch meeting. Matthew Weiner said in an interview linked upthread (or in the previous thread) that Bob is definitely a liar.

flyingsquirrel, but he also hasn't denied it when directly questioned. And again, I don't see what upside there would be for his pretending to be gay? Also, do you have that link to the Weiner interview? I missed that and am very interested. At some point someone suggested (before this ep) that if Bob were gay, he could have been referring to former partners when he spoke of his dead "father" and his restored-to-health "father"--which would render that lie pretty innocuous. But have we seen him lie at other times?
posted by torticat at 11:56 PM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]

sweetkid
all that speculation of "she's 25" was pointless when will we learn

Oh man never again. I was howling as each of those snippets came up...
Peggy rushing out of her apartment [away from a rat]
Ted & Peggy drunk at dinner [with Pete]
Dead Megan [trying to help out the neighbor]
Ted walking in a bedroom [where his wife & kids are on the bed]
posted by torticat at 12:04 AM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

One way that Bob could have gotten to know Manolo was when Manolo nursed his father back to full health.

Since we know Wolk's off the show, was Pete firing him in that scene?

I agree the TV programming needs to be fingered. I made Burt Lancaster, I think, in the little segment where we cut from one party watching the film in black and white to another in color. I'm sorry, I don't recall the viewers.

What book was that that Ted's wife was sleeping under?

Lastly, Stan's choice of a Dayan poster as bedroom décor must be parsed down to a nubbin! What is he saying?
posted by mwhybark at 12:31 AM on June 11, 2013

And Ted flopping onto the couch, "But I don't want HIS juice, I want MY juice!"

Not having kids, my assumption is that this is some sort of juicebox childrearing joke.
posted by mwhybark at 12:32 AM on June 11, 2013

Since we know Wolk's off the show, was Pete firing him in that scene?

Wait, you mean when Pete offered the month's severance he was talking in the third person about Bob, not Manolo? Just continuing in the manner Bob had been speaking about himself?

Oh! I didn't get that, if that's what was happening. i thought Pete was reverting back to the ostensible topic of their conversation, which was whether Manolo was morally fit to care for Pete's mom.

Is it definite that Wolk's off the show?
posted by torticat at 2:14 AM on June 11, 2013

It's definite in the sense that Wolk starred in a CBS pilot that was picked up. It's possible that his schedule and contract might allow for a guest episode or two, but more likely not, and certainly not at the level of participation he's had this season.
posted by Rhomboid at 3:18 AM on June 11, 2013

I'd hope the show can get Wolk back at least as much as they can get Alison Brie - or more than that, if necessary.
posted by crossoverman at 3:54 AM on June 11, 2013

Apropos of not much you guys have just been talking about James Wolk looks like a young Kyle Chandler in this pic crossoverman posted.
posted by sweetkid at 6:48 AM on June 11, 2013

FWIW cable series shoot on a different schedule than network series. It's entirely possible he could be back next season. Though I agree he'll probably be less prominent.
posted by Sara C. at 6:52 AM on June 11, 2013

I just want to look at him on my television. And not just because he's attractive - I think he's got a great career ahead of him. Something special about him.
posted by sweetkid at 6:57 AM on June 11, 2013 [4 favorites]

Yeah, if Alison Brie can play both Annie on Community and Trudy, which she has been doing for several years, they can probably keep Bob around if it serves the plot.
posted by dry white toast at 7:37 AM on June 11, 2013

I feel like there's no reason to keep him unless he gets a good chunk of season 7 plot, which he might not have time for with the other show.
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 AM on June 11, 2013

Yeah, if Alison Brie can play both Annie on Community and Trudy, which she has been doing for several years

Also FYI she is amazing. Somehow those characters are ten years apart in age and it's all in intonation.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:48 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I can't help but think all the slow character exposition they've done with Bob is a bit of a waste if his big narrative payoff was to hit on Pete.
posted by dry white toast at 7:50 AM on June 11, 2013

Agreed, Brie is seriously underrated. She has genuine depth as Trudy, and her comedic talents on Community seem to get overshadowed by the other actors.
posted by dry white toast at 7:52 AM on June 11, 2013

I don't think she's underrated. I hear a lot about her and people seem to love her characters.
posted by sweetkid at 7:56 AM on June 11, 2013

Most of the attention directed her way on the internet seems to be of the skeevy variety, unfortunately, which sometimes overshadows whatever actual admiration for her talent there is.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:04 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Most of the attention directed her way on the internet seems to be of the skeevy variety, unfortunately, which sometimes overshadows whatever actual admiration for her talent there is.

Yea but that's like, true for most famous women on the internet.
posted by sweetkid at 8:06 AM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also Pete's 'degenerate' line - it was hard to hear, but I'm not sure it was hearfelt. As we can see two minutes later when he was like, "maybe?"

Pete was definately not thinking "maybe". The degenerate line wasn't heartfelt, but he did not consider Bob's come on for a milisecond. We have seen 8 years of Pete; he's extemely focused on women, to his own undoing. He was totally caught off guard by Bob, and he's actually not enough of a bad guy to punch him or fire him, but I think you're projecting.

basically had a sure thing with Megan

There wasn't anything sure about the Canada thing, and living in exile until Jimmy Carter's presidency is not an optimal outcome.
posted by spaltavian at 8:30 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

He was totally caught off guard by Bob, and he's actually not enough of a bad guy to punch him or fire him, but I think you're projecting.

Projecting what? I don't think he considered like, having sex with Bob, no, but I think the little speech about having someone care for him triggered something in him and was a callback to his mother saying he was always unlovable. I think he felt a strong emotion in that moment he didn't totally understand and thought, is it because I want this? and decided no.

I don't know what 'projecting' has to do with it, I have a different read than you do.
posted by sweetkid at 8:41 AM on June 11, 2013

basically had a sure thing with Megan

There wasn't anything sure about the Canada thing

Yeah I agree. The Megan thing didn't sound sure at all.
posted by sweetkid at 8:42 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, my read of Pete's reaction to Bob's knee was: "I know what you are doing right there, and there is zero chance whatsoever. I'm not going to be an asshole and call you out on it or fire you or anything, but forget about it."
posted by Chrysostom at 8:44 AM on June 11, 2013

Yeah, plus the National Guard option basically means he won't have to vanish from his parents life.

I actually thought the conversation between Don and Dr. Rosen about the difference between them and Mitchell's generation was interesting and well done. It touched on a lot of the key differences between World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.
posted by dry white toast at 8:45 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, in thinking about it, I'm less convinced that Don's actions were about getting Sylvia back. I think he could see the impact it was having on Dr. Rosen, and he realized in that conversation that what made this different is his feeling that the war is wrong. When he calls the Rosens with the news, he initially asks to speak to him (IIRC).

Not that it makes his actions thereafter any less sad.
posted by dry white toast at 8:50 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think Don wanted to help Mitchell and Dr. Rosen, but it's impossible to untangle that from him knowing that Sylvia would also appreciate it. I think he firmly moved Sylvia into the "never happened" portion of his brain. If Sylvia hadn't answered the phone to hear his news, I don't think he would have went to her and said "Well, I saved your kid so how about you reconsider your rejection of me?" Even in the phone call he is not doing this. But once she gives him an opening he takes it.

So he had to know that it might lead to something with Sylvia, but I don't think it was his primary reason for taking it on. But it's all an emotionally tangled mess that can't easily be separated.
posted by mikepop at 9:01 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Aww, Bob got a show? Awesome if too bad for MadMen. I like my pet theory of him bearding up with Joan. If he's bi, and she gets by as well as "gets bi", they could work something out and it might not be totally bearding, especially if he replaces Campbell and they both end up powerhouses and stakeholders in SC&P.

And I totally think he does enjoy being helpful, and his admiration for Pete and the pass was part "Hey why not" and maybe a bit of power play. But I'm not a pansexual/gay/bisexual (or however Matt ends up using him) man in the 60s, so.

Thinking about Manolo and the name/nationality choice (perhaps too much) - Manolo - "exotic" name but diminutive/familiar of Manuel-Emmanuel; religious name being an alternate for Jesus.

In a predominately WASPy English speaking part of the world, it would have likely been pronounced Man Ewe Ell instead of Mahn Well; Manolo is "easier" for english-speakers to pronounce in my experience than mangling Manuel.

And Manolo is a "life saver" for Pete's Mom (the Widow Campbell nee Dykeman which is a weird convergence, though it's original meaning is of course a job, just like Cooper and Stirling and Draper - and has nothing to do with the modern slang usage of dyke).

But what's in a name? I only noticed it because of my experience with having names pronounced different ways for different cultures and "picking" one that "everyone" could use equally comfortably. On things where I don't care what I'm called but want to save the "how to pronounce things" conversation, I just go by "Tilly" instead of "Till Day" or "Teel Deh" or "Till Duh".

Now that I think about it, I taught my kids to say my name in "English" (Till Day) since we are around English speakers mostly instead of "Till Duh" or "Teel Deh" as I grew up hearing 80% of the time (5% of the time when I summered with primary English speakers)

Don - Mitchell - I think it wasn't to get back with Sylvia, but he didn't mind it so much that it helped. More to keep the kid from being on the run and as an admiration kissup/silent apology to Arnold.
posted by tilde at 9:02 AM on June 11, 2013

I think he firmly moved Sylvia into the "never happened" portion of his brain.

I thought he had, too, but all his interactions with Sylvia made me think otherwise. Calling her sweetheart, talking about what had happened between them, etc.
posted by sweetkid at 9:04 AM on June 11, 2013

Err Dyckman (I don't get subtitles on Apple TV) ... but I'm assuming people are going by ear ...
posted by tilde at 9:13 AM on June 11, 2013

especially if he replaces Campbell and they both end up powerhouses and stakeholders in SC&P

I don't think this is going to happen, for casting and story reasons.
posted by sweetkid at 9:20 AM on June 11, 2013

Well, true, sweetkid. I believe my original theory was setting up with Joan to give them both stability and as a way to at least be a stakeholder by proxy. If he's looking up to Pete and that gun comes out again ... I know for a while I thought Joan was gonna shoot Pete, or Lane, or both (I don't think suicide is possible with that gun? I know nothing of guns).

Bob likes to help people; it gives him "power" but not a "power complex" of exerting power over people. "Power" that feeds him and his self esteem. Maybe the "power" of fitting in when he might not feel he does (again, not a gay/ish/what? man of the 60s). Also, the "self help" records; to pump himself up or for lack of proper mentoring? Not sure, I'm not tuned to that stuff, though I did do Dale Carnegie at a boss' behest, albeit reluctantly.

Also - no "next times" for me-Apple TV. I see it all Mon night, then the "behind the scenes" after.

Cutler - job name (knife maker), Chaough - bird / crow is the closest I can find, Gleason - color (blue, green) and place (Ireland).

Contrasting Bob and Sal - Not only is it several years later (8-10) - I also get the impression that Sal was at least 10 years older then than Bob is now, so nearly a generational difference going on there as well, if they are say ... 15 years apart in age.
posted by tilde at 9:31 AM on June 11, 2013

Wah, wandered off. There could be a vacuum if Chaough, Campbell, and Olson set up their own little company again; Bob moves into Campbell's spot whether or not he socially hooks in with Joan, they work respectfully together and with each other favorably.
posted by tilde at 9:33 AM on June 11, 2013

(I don't think suicide is possible with that gun? I know nothing of guns).

It's a .22, right? It's possible. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it's possible.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:42 AM on June 11, 2013

Someone mentioned to me that the Vulture recap is outstanding this week and it really is. I recommend checking it out. It focuses mainly on Bob and Don's motivations, but specifically Bob's and has the following about the knee incident:

And something in Pete’s face during the knee exchange suggests that he’s not rejecting Bob’s monologue out of hand. Maybe there’s something to what the younger man is saying, and on some level Pete knows it and can’t handle it right now, but has absorbed it and knows that at some point he’ll have to consider it. Variations of “perversion” and “degeneracy” keep popping up in Pete’s dialogue this week; he’s talking about Manolo and his mother, the possibility that the old woman isn’t fantasizing, but maybe the words mean something else, too — maybe they’re his way of rejecting his true nature, which is bubbling up. Maybe that’s why, when he goes home to his swingin’ bachelor pad, he chucks the empty cereal box at the wall in rage and sadness. Maybe he’s not just reacting to the fear that his mom was right about him being unlovable, and that his mother is partly to blame for his unlovability. Maybe he’s reacting to what Bob said. Maybe it struck him in the heart. “Please tell me you don’t pity me,” Pete says affectionately to Peggy. “Because you really know me.” What if Peggy doesn’t know him as well as Bob, who barely knows him at all?

Really, there's so much more in the review too that I wanted to quote. It's some of the best writing on this show I've seen.
posted by sweetkid at 9:45 AM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

“Bob is a wonderful salesman,” Manolo says, understating like a mofo.

Chances Bob used to be a hustler?

I mean, the whole Wharton MBA thing makes it a stretch, but you never know.

I definitely like the idea of Bob having a sordid past to match Don's, or, if you take the mirror twin thing literally, Bob having an ongoing double life, or slipping deeper into a double life, as a counterpoint to Don's past.
posted by Sara C. at 10:22 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh man if I was running season 7 and had James Wolk at my disposal I would SOOOOO do a huge subplot where we follow Bob as he becomes more and more fascinated with burgeoning gay culture, culminating with Stonewall. Though I probably wouldn't want him to be actually at Stonewall since everybody claims to have been at Stonewall and none of them were.

Sort of mirroring what happened with Robert Mapplethorpe around the same time, where he was "straight" but just super fascinated with gay life (and especially hustlers), and then hey, maybe this is an experience I want to have even though I def have a (TOTALLY PATTI SMITH) girlfriend, and oooooh, maybe this isn't just a creative fascination but who I am, and yeah, OK, I'm gay. Over the course of a few years.

(Bob's good looks and ambition are definitely reminiscent of Mapplethorpe, though he was desperate for success in the art world, not the business world.)
posted by Sara C. at 10:30 AM on June 11, 2013

Oh man if I was running season 7

Hmm so many ideas for this
posted by sweetkid at 10:37 AM on June 11, 2013

Sorry for the late replies here:

> It might have been hugely controversial to say [asshole] in a movie (I think Bullitt was indeed the first to do that), but in real life?

Good question, Sys Rq. My reaction was based on the scarcity of cursing on the show -- it's used so sparingly, it really stands out. I don't know how common it was in real life at that time (though based on my own extremely limited experience as a toddler with pseudo-hippie parents in the very early 1970s, it wasn't nearly as prevalent/common as it is now). But given that the language of Mad Men tries hard to be faithful to the social habits of the time, I think it was meant to be pretty shocking. In 2010, the New York Times focused one of its "On Language" columns on the language of Mad Men. It includes this: "Though cursing on 'Mad Men' isn’t as rampant as it was on 'Deadwood' or 'The Sopranos' (on which Weiner previously worked), it has its place in the show and promises to become more prominent as the characters move through the ever-liberalizing ’60s." To me, it felt like an intentional part of Ted's confident, laid-back vibe.

> flyingsquirrel, but [Bob] also hasn't denied it when directly questioned. And again, I don't see what upside there would be for his pretending to be gay? Also, do you have that link to the Weiner interview? I missed that and am very interested. At some point someone suggested (before this ep) that if Bob were gay, he could have been referring to former partners when he spoke of his dead "father" and his restored-to-health "father"--which would render that lie pretty innocuous. But have we seen him lie at other times?

torticat: Here's the interview with Weiner, in which he says: "Yeah. He's definitely a liar. I hope that you caught that. And I hope that you caught that he -- you don't think he seems like an ambitious person jockeying for a job?" And then: "...he is definitely mysterious. And that's deliberate."

He may very well be gay (and in love with Pete / *shudders too*), but I think it's fascinating that after so much hinting and speculation, he's ultimately just as much of a mystery - even with the knee touch - as he was when we first saw him. I mean that scene in the hallway with Cutler a few episodes back... what the hell was that?? There's something deep below the surface going on - be it his slightly-more-than-semi-closeted lifestyle, or a Dick Whitman-style charade, or some highly organized scam involving coffee and shorts - whatever it is, the not-knowing-what-it-is is driving me bonkers. B.O.N.K.E.R.S.

p.s. Thank you, thesmallmachine, for the visual image of "Don and Ted locking horns like majestic stags." Every time I think of this I squeee a little, and my mind draws a disturbingly realistic picture.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 10:52 AM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

I don't know how everyone else felt about it but I thought the Tommy reference was pretty compelling for how it casts a pall over Sally's future in much the same way as the star shirt did for Megan.
posted by invitapriore at 11:09 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

The thing that jumped from the Vulture review for me was the parallel between Dick's experience at the whorehouse and Sally catching him. More bad portents.

I know everyone is fascinated by Bob this week, but Sally's experience is resonating much more with me. I keep thinking back to the Season 4 episode when she took the train to visit him and the time they had.

And the fall out scenes were so well done. Kiernan Shipka was fantastic. With most other actresses that age, they wouldn't have been able to write more than her flapping down on the bed in tears. Seeing them pressed against either side of the door was heartbreaking.
posted by dry white toast at 11:32 AM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

Kiernan Shipka was fantastic. With most other actresses that age, they wouldn't have been able to write more than her flapping down on the bed in tears. Seeing them pressed against either side of the door was heartbreaking.

Seriously. I was wondering if her great work as a child actor was just a lack of guile or some natural talent that sometimes start to fade as kids become teens but no. She just gets better and better. What a find.
posted by sweetkid at 11:35 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

My only problem with the Sally storyline was that her manipulative friend was a little distracting from a parsimony-of-narrative-means standpoint. Otherwise, yeah, that whole subplot was one of the best things that the show has pulled off in recent memory.
posted by invitapriore at 11:40 AM on June 11, 2013

The "Sally sees Don in flagrante delicto" subplot really upset me, honestly. I knew exactly what would happen the minute she showed back up at the door of the building, and I started yelling, "nonononono" out loud.

Sally's been through enough crap, dammit, she didn't need that.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:51 AM on June 11, 2013

But her manipulative friend pushed her to go back and kiss Mitchell without which she wouldn't have seen Don and Sylvia.

I really liked the character and actress of Sally's friend and didn't see her as distracting at all. It was a good way to get more "kids in the 60s" detail, too. Also their teasing each other about their crushes and sexual desires was revealing, too. No more little Sally Draper.
posted by sweetkid at 11:53 AM on June 11, 2013

Yeah, I mean, I see why she had to be there and you're right that she brought out some interesting things in Sally, but all the moments with her getting under Megan's skin just made me go "wtf?" and kind of took me out of the moment a little bit. Maybe they were necessary to establish that aspect of her character so that the Mitchell thing came off right, but it didn't work for me.
posted by invitapriore at 11:59 AM on June 11, 2013

But her manipulative friend pushed her to go back and kiss Mitchell without which she wouldn't have seen Don and Sylvia.

I thought she went back to get back a letter the friend had supposedly left "by Sally" to Mitchell.

Also - nice Vulture link. A "good" sociopath ... interesting characterization.
posted by tilde at 12:01 PM on June 11, 2013

She went back not to kiss Mitchell, but to retrieve the letter her friend had sent, which made explicit her (their) vague crushy feelings. So at the very moment she was trying to take back the letter/repress this foray into sexuality and adult/grown-up feelings, she was greeted with the sight of something sexual/adult she'll likely deal with repressing in one way or another (squashing down those feelings, acting out) for some time to come.
posted by mothershock at 12:03 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

I love Sally's manipulative little frienemy cause we rarely see her interacting with peers.

Chances Bob used to be a hustler

I'm imagining some lurid soap opera past where a John dies on top of young Bob and he goes and assumes the guy's much nicer indenity.
posted by The Whelk at 12:03 PM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]

Basically I want Bob to be Thomas Ripley.
posted by The Whelk at 12:05 PM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]

yes you're right she went back to get the letter. sorry! still she wouldn't have gone back had it not been for the friend.
posted by sweetkid at 12:08 PM on June 11, 2013

True, she would not have gone back if not for the machinations of the shoehorn friend.

I agree with the assertion above that the friend was distracting and manipulative; nearly shoehorned into the storyline without actually fitting.. But what is the alternative to get her there?

Option 1: Have her feeling like she wants to make out with him and pursue him herself with no friend wedged into the storyline? That'd "punish" her for trying to be "too adult" and possibly eff her up even more, like girls who first kiss a boy and get their period with no foreknowledge of the whole menstruation thing. That happened to a peer, and we're younger than Sally is, comparatively - the peer thought it was a punishment from her God for kissing a boy.

Option 2: Have her and him and the friend go back to his place innocentlyish enough (maybe with the friend and he a bit of an item) and all three of them walk in (or Sally, leading the pack while the other two lag behind to make out)?

Option 3: Actually, I can't think of a third way. The way they did this seems to be the least illogical.

_{Yeah, I remember that Glen was with her when she first got her period, but at least she knew what was happening once it di, even if she couldn't cope with it on her own.}
posted by tilde at 12:15 PM on June 11, 2013

( quietly considers yet another Mad Men fillet: The Talented Mr. Benson).
posted by The Whelk at 12:19 PM on June 11, 2013

I love Sally's manipulative little frienemy cause we rarely see her interacting with peers.

This. Also I thought it was interesting that Megan hates being called Mrs. Draper.
posted by sweetkid at 12:20 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

If I was the costume designer I'd probobly be unable to resist putting Sally in a red dress and pearls for one scene at least.
posted by The Whelk at 12:21 PM on June 11, 2013

A strapless red dress? With pointy hair?
posted by sweetkid at 12:23 PM on June 11, 2013

A red and black dress.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 12:29 PM on June 11, 2013

what are we talking about
posted by sweetkid at 12:30 PM on June 11, 2013

I meant the Lisa Simpson joke yes
posted by The Whelk at 12:32 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

ok so no black then
posted by sweetkid at 12:34 PM on June 11, 2013

Apologies, the Whelk's comment made me flash on all the red and black color themes this episode. For awhile all I saw was yellow, now this. Pointless obsessive derail henceforth rescinded.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 12:42 PM on June 11, 2013

you should feel really, really bad.
posted by sweetkid at 12:44 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Every time someone mentions Dr. Rosen I can hear Chevy Chase in my head saying "Dr. Rosenrosen".
posted by Fleebnork at 12:51 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

you should feel really, really bad.

*gets into elevator with sweat-streaked hair and furrowed brow, takes a deep breath, and looks to the left*
posted by flyingsquirrel at 12:59 PM on June 11, 2013

I thought you were making a reference to the novel Le Rouge et Le Noir and was like, wouldn't it be Bob wearing the dress?
posted by sweetkid at 1:01 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Holy crap, I wish I HAD made that reference -- for Sally, Bob, Megan, hell everyone!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 1:05 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Meh, Sally's friend seemed like a typical friend of a young teenage girl. And the payoff was so huge, she immediately faded into the background for me.

You people fixate on weird stuff.
posted by dry white toast at 1:14 PM on June 11, 2013

I liked the Charterhouse of Parma okay, how is le Rouge et le Noir?
posted by Chrysostom at 1:18 PM on June 11, 2013

You people fixate on weird stuff.

Is that like a joke?
posted by sweetkid at 1:18 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Well, not really. I'm saying I genuinely don't get how a plot-serving, one-off character can be distracting enough to draw focus away from a core character's life altering event, just because she calls Megan "Mrs. Draper."
posted by dry white toast at 1:33 PM on June 11, 2013

But we all fixate on weird stuff, it's like the point of being fans of this show and writing about it here and also reading recaps, which is why I thought it was a joke.
posted by sweetkid at 1:35 PM on June 11, 2013

I thought you were making a reference to the novel Le Rouge et Le Noir and was like, wouldn't it be Bob wearing the dress?

It makes me think of the RCMP.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:36 PM on June 11, 2013

IF we didn't fixate on weird stuff we wouldn't have a complete itemized breakdown of how much the main characters make at their jobs.

(Note, someone make me an itemized breakdown of how much the Drapers/Francises/Olsens/Sterlings/etc are worth)
posted by The Whelk at 1:38 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I get that sweetkid. I engage in it as much as anyone. It's totally part of the fun. I'm just surprised to see people say that minor details like that could lessen the impact of the bigger narrative. But maybe that's just me fixating on weird stuff. :)
posted by dry white toast at 1:40 PM on June 11, 2013

Sally's friend wasn't in the scene where that happens, though. I mean, it sounds like you're surprised that the emotional force of the scene where Sally sees Don in bed with Sylvia wasn't sufficient to make me forget something I noticed idly earlier in the episode. Not sure where fixation enters into it, especially now that we're more in the long tail of having already discussed the larger scale things.
posted by invitapriore at 1:41 PM on June 11, 2013

Speaking of plot nitpicks, what is Peggy's job title these days? I thought Don and Ted had the "Creative Director" title, even though that's what I'd guess her position is otherwise.
posted by invitapriore at 1:46 PM on June 11, 2013

She's "Coffee Chief", obviously.
posted by dry white toast at 1:47 PM on June 11, 2013 [4 favorites]

Chief Copywriter. It says so on her office door.
posted by orange swan at 1:47 PM on June 11, 2013

Oh right. Damn, looks like I'm getting demoted to the Nitpickers Junior League.
posted by invitapriore at 1:49 PM on June 11, 2013

Junior Leaguers have to do all the coffee runs. No sugar please.
posted by sweetkid at 1:53 PM on June 11, 2013

And take minutes at the Nitpickers Partners meeting. Wearing purple poke-a-dot dress with bow on the front, optional.
posted by dry white toast at 1:54 PM on June 11, 2013

(Note, someone make me an itemized breakdown of how much the Drapers/Francises/Olsens/Sterlings/etc are worth)

I'm not at all the person to do this, but I want it with the Chaoughs, Cutlers, and Campbells too. And Joan, because I'm curious, and the the inflation-adjusted present-day dollars too, because I won't understand it otherwise.
posted by gladly at 1:58 PM on June 11, 2013

Wearing purple poke-a-dot dress with bow on the front, optional.

I welcome this chance to shine.
posted by invitapriore at 2:03 PM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]

I'm not at all the person to do this, but I want it with the Chaoughs, Cutlers, and Campbells too. And Joan, because I'm curious

When they were contemplating the IPO, and Pete told Joan that at minimum her share could be worth nearly $1 Million, I immediately flashed back to Lane's advice to her about taking the partnership over the $50k. Amazing what he did for her with those few words, compared to what his wife got after his suicide.
posted by dry white toast at 2:06 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

dry white toast:
And the fall out scenes were so well done. Kiernan Shipka was fantastic. With most other actresses that age, they wouldn't have been able to write more than her flapping down on the bed in tears. Seeing them pressed against either side of the door was heartbreaking.

Wow, totally agree. Her face and the little backward stumble she did when she first walked in on Don and Sylvia were amazing too.

Also regarding readery's observation further upthread,
The quick cut of Sylvia and Don was so hyper-fucking, like in rut. Definitely weird for a fourteen year old. Remember when you first get the gist of sex? Especially as it relates to your parents? You picture a lot more kissing and tenderness.

In most (most) Don sex scenes you do get a fair amount of kissing and tenderness. Also, Don usually has clothes or sheets on. They shot that scene to make him look more exposed than we usually see him (thigh and butt uncovered*), a sight that NO 14yo would want to see of her dad.

BTW my husband noted last night that Sally also walked in on Megan's mother giving Roger a blowjob. Maybe now she understands that Marie was probably just comforting Roger. (Ugh)

*Also it's kind of funny that earlier in the episode her friend said to Sally, re Mitchell, "His ass? How did you see that?"

Poor Sally.
posted by torticat at 2:10 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also it's kind of funny that earlier in the episode her friend said to Sally, re Mitchell, "His ass? How did you see that?"

Actually, another thought I had about that bedroom scene: after the friend said she calls Megan "Mrs Draper" because she hates it, she says, "Can you imagine? He's just down the hall" or similar.

At first I thought she was talking about Don.
posted by sweetkid at 2:13 PM on June 11, 2013

BTW my husband noted last night that Sally also walked in on Megan's mother giving Roger a blowjob.

Yeah essentially Sally is now under the impression that the entire adult world is just inappropriate sexual couplings behind closed doors at all times.

She will never open another door as long as she lives.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:15 PM on June 11, 2013 [4 favorites]

The Doorway

dun dun dun
posted by sweetkid at 2:17 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah essentially Sally is now under the impression that the entire adult world is just inappropriate sexual couplings behind closed doors at all times.

She will never open another door as long as she lives.

To be honest I've had a few experiences recently* that have me thinking that basically most people in committed relationships are ready to cheat on their SO at the drop of a hat, and I am much older than Sally. Maybe I am exceedingly impressionable.

* Thankfully not firsthand, but unfortunately they did happen to people I care about.
posted by invitapriore at 2:21 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

yep, a lot more people are cool with cheating/actively trying to cheat than I think most people think.
posted by sweetkid at 2:23 PM on June 11, 2013

When they were contemplating the IPO, and Pete told Joan that at minimum her share could be worth nearly $1 Million, I immediately flashed back to Lane's advice to her about taking the partnership over the $50k. Amazing what he did for her with those few words, compared to what his wife got after his suicide.

Amazing what the merger may have cost her then, too. Although I guess her share's value would be even higher if/when SC&P eventually goes public.
posted by gladly at 2:38 PM on June 11, 2013

BTW my husband noted last night that Sally also walked in on Megan's mother giving Roger a blowjob.

Yeah essentially Sally is now under the impression that the entire adult world is just inappropriate sexual couplings behind closed doors at all times.

Yup. Without getting into details, I can share that, as a little kid, I knew all sorts of dirty deeds my parents were up to (both when they were married and when they were divorced, with partners/one-night-stands who were married and some of whom were not). I may not have walked in on them, but that didn't stop them from telling me of their exploits in grisly detail, completely devoid of any sense of appropriateness or parental filtering. (The 70s were such a glorious time.)

As a kid, all you know is that it feels weird and uncomfortable and icky and mysterious and wrong, but you don't know why.

Then you grow up, and you date, and you realize how fucked up your own understanding of sexuality is, and you start therapy, and you begin to understand why.

So yeah. IRL, that shit will fuck you up for life.

(Trust me.)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 2:41 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

I found myself dressing for a party tonight and narrating my clothing choices and options in the same internal voice I used to read the mad style posts
posted by The Whelk at 3:01 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm not at all the person to do this, but I want it with the Chaoughs, Cutlers, and Campbells too.

Well, the Chaoghs have a plane, but then again they apparently live in one bedroom and half a foyer, so it's all tradeoffs. Just like Pete can afford two rows of buttons on his vest but not a new box of raisin bran.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:05 PM on June 11, 2013 [6 favorites]

after the friend said she calls Megan "Mrs Draper" because she hates it, she says, "Can you imagine? He's just down the hall" or similar.

At first I thought she was talking about Don.

Same here. Because the "he's just downstairs" part was a non sequitur in their conversation and has a different meaning (Don) in the overall story. The writing on this show is so good (and so manipulative).
posted by torticat at 4:18 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm really hoping Tom and Lorenzo can shed some light on Pete's double-breasted vest in the Bob scene. Actually, I wish they'd shed some light on any of his clothes this season, beyond the fact that he's started wearing three-piece suits like Roger. He's consistently looked strange to me this year, not at all like any of the other men on the show. Straight-hemmed vests, mildly bold striped shirts, pattern-on-pattern, all cumulating in this pale-gray Watchmen thing. His older co-workers aren't wearing anything like this, and yet all the looks are very stuffy -- it's hard to believe that they were considered youthful or trendy business styles (Harry is the one whose clothes are trendy), or that Pete has any interest in fashion. What would clothes like this connote at the time?

(No bonus to Tlo for just observing that the vest is armor-y or that his suit looks smothering and awkward. I want to talk about buttons.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 4:24 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Wait, what Tommy reference with Sally? What?
posted by Sara C. at 5:21 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am Rewatching - Peggy joking Pete is in love with Ted, Pete just putting it off to his need for the account Ted is throwing his way.

I haven't seen the Tommy moment referenced.
posted by tilde at 5:39 PM on June 11, 2013

Nice points about the draft :"He's gonna be on a list for the rest of his life" "on the run for the rest of his life" didn't know, of course, about Carter.

I love how Ted & his wife fight. Took me a lot of practice to get to that level of ability (& still not yet that good).

I love Teds boots!

Julie has a Snoopy bedroll!
posted by tilde at 5:48 PM on June 11, 2013

I was eyeing Ted's boots, too. He's a dapper man; no other word for it.
posted by thesmallmachine at 5:52 PM on June 11, 2013

Sara C., that's how I read "Sally, can you hear me?" I mean, at first glance it's anachronistic but obviously Don wouldn't be thinking about that anyway. But it fits metrically and thematically.
posted by invitapriore at 6:00 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Holy crap, almost sounded like Peggy was suggesting a threesome.

Yeah, Bob is smitten. No call on Pete but man is he dooooown. But reading back to Bob & Joan, they look wonderful together, especially as he puts her a SUCH ease.

Ohhhh I love the cab scene! We never see the outdoors.

Made myself watch the rat scene. Peggy's gonna need a bigger cat.

That last scene between Don, Sally, & the doorways. Dayum.
posted by tilde at 6:17 PM on June 11, 2013

Sara C., that's how I read "Sally, can you hear me?"

I don't think that's a Tommy reference.
posted by sweetkid at 6:40 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sara C., that's how I read "Sally, can you hear me?"

I don't think that's a Tommy reference.

I thought of Tommy when Don told Sally she didn't see what she thought she saw.

You didn't hear it, you didn't see it!
You won't say nothin' to no one,
Ever in your life.
You never heard it.
How absurd it all seems, without any proof!

You didn't hear it, you didn't see it!
You never heard it, not a word of it!
You won't say nothin' to no one,
Never tell a soul what you know is the truth!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:59 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's compelling but Tommy didn't come out until 1969.
posted by sweetkid at 7:07 PM on June 11, 2013

We never see the outdoors.

Except for the many, many times we do. Although, less in New York - more when they travel elsewhere.
posted by crossoverman at 7:23 PM on June 11, 2013

Well, and I wish I had a good short phrase for this, but you know that thing that period pieces sometimes do where they kind of rib the characters by having them react short-sightedly to a historical inevitability? Something like when someone expresses disbelief at the notion of Ronald Reagan running for President for example. This feels similar in that the subtext relies on us knowing about something that happened in the future, but that doesn't it make it strictly anachronistic in my eyes.
posted by invitapriore at 7:24 PM on June 11, 2013

like when someone expresses disbelief at the notion of Ronald Reagan running for President for example.

That's not the same thing as Tommy will come out in a year.

I mean sorry but "Can you hear me" is a pretty common phrase. If he said "Sally, you sure play a mean Pinball," then I might see it.
posted by sweetkid at 7:28 PM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]

I'm actually really enjoying imagining Don telling Sally that. But I think what made it less ambiguous for me is the inclusion of "Sally" beforehand, which just makes it sound so much more like that line. I mean, my interpretation could very well be just the product of my own biases, but it struck me that way immediately. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
posted by invitapriore at 7:42 PM on June 11, 2013

It's funny, when I read "Sally, can you hear me?" I think "Papa, can you hear me?" from Yentl.

I will leave it up to debate whether the issue is that all of Mad Men is looking forward towards a future where Barbra Streisand sings, acts, directs, and produces a movie about a cross-dressing Yeshiva Girl, or if perhaps I'm just a huge dork.
posted by Sara C. at 7:47 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

all of Mad Men is looking forward towards a future where Barbra Streisand sings, acts, directs, and produces a movie about a cross-dressing Yeshiva Girl,'

cannot stop laughing
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Maybe he's just REALLY ahead of his time and is referencing Verizon's "Can you hear me now? Good."
posted by sweetkid at 8:00 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am so glad to hear that I wasn't the only one scheming on Ted's boots.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:23 PM on June 11, 2013

Are we ready to go down the oranges rabbit hole?

Ideas about oranges/the color orange:

- Roger juggles oranges, seemingly for no real reason, and he and Don even joke about the fact that he can't juggle/failed at juggling, until suddenly he is able to juggle the oranges. Roger has also had some possibly death-tinged subplots this season, like losing his mother, feeling shut out of both his son and his grandson's lives, and being totally irrelevant in California. Maybe his next heart attack is the big one?

- Sylvia's whole kitchen is orange, and I believe she is shown in orange prints in all her scenes this episode, except the scene where she interrupts Mitchell, Julie, and Sally's little moment in the lobby. In that scene, she's a black column. I also feel like Sylvia's death would be just out-of-left-field enough.

- Quick: has Megan worn orange lately? (The link mentions the orange sherbert, which was a fricking year ago so IMO doesn't count)
posted by Sara C. at 8:39 PM on June 11, 2013

Roger juggles oranges, seemingly for no real reason

I know there might be a deeper meaning (probably), but i just thought this moment was "hey! John Slattery is adorable!" Because he is.
posted by sweetkid at 8:42 PM on June 11, 2013 [3 favorites]

Yeah, but it was a pretty prolonged moment. I know the idea was for them to be riffing and then have Ted come in and be pissy about Sunkist, but they riffed for a long ass time.

Then again, I thought there was also a lot of pointless riffing with Julie and her desire to piss off Megan, so maybe this episode just had some pointless riffing for tone or pacing purposes. Sometimes pointless riffing is a good thing.
posted by Sara C. at 8:47 PM on June 11, 2013

We discussed this up thread opinions are mixed on whether Julie's riffing was pointless (personally I love her and her bratty snarky crap. She's a mini Francine to Sally's mini Betty).
posted by sweetkid at 8:51 PM on June 11, 2013

they riffed for a long ass time.
posted by sweetkid at 8:57 PM on June 11, 2013

Yeah, I'm not so much talking about Julie's moments with Sally, which I think are needed to establish who she is and what her dynamic is like with Sally. I also agree that it gives us some nice teenager moments with Sally. I especially loved the contrast between the two of them, so on the one hand Sally is maybe more openly sexual, but also less experienced and more bookish/earnest about school stuff. Which I think is a pretty interesting combination.

I just sort of didn't get the whole "Sally goes to take a shower" thing where Megan and Julie have this scene pretty much for no reason, except for the fact that it diverts our attention from the fact that she's slipping the love note under the door while she takes out the trash. I just don't get the purpose of Julie's desire to get under Megan's skin, and asking her about her agent, and all.

And, again, I have no problem with any of this and assume it probably is in the story for a reason that isn't apparent right now, or just to establish the pace of the episode.
posted by Sara C. at 9:06 PM on June 11, 2013

Someone was on an orange couch, in that office with the orange wallpaper.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:12 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wasn't that same someone the very person who was pissed about the Sunkist account and said "I don't want his juice. I want my juice!"

A dedicated beanplater could make a case for the cranberry being a blood metaphor, but I think that's a bit much. Still, I have to wonder, is this the moment that orange cranberry juice was invented?
posted by Sara C. at 9:31 PM on June 11, 2013

Peggy's orange cat (Jonesy, obv).
posted by mwhybark at 9:53 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]

Are we ready to go down the oranges rabbit hole?

Not me but that's because I was burned by the whole "next week on" discussion and have to take a timeout on predictions. I do agree that the sherbet thing is a streeeetch.

I kinda think that applies to the other points made about Mad Men in that Uproxx column and the Vulture video it links to, though. The column says the video shows "all the instances that we missed foreshadowing the death of Lane," but all it really shows is a ton of death foreshadowing, nothing much specific to Lane.

And what's the point the writer is trying to make about the hand gesture? That Lane did that once in last year's premiere, and Don made a similar gesture after Lane died AND in this past episode? Huh? (Sally makes the same motion when Don is talking to her through the door. Is it supposed to be significant?)
posted by torticat at 10:59 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh, yeah, the hand gesture thing is super weird.

But I think the oranges thing is really interesting, specifically. Especially since, if a character were to die, Roger would be an interesting choice.
posted by Sara C. at 11:09 PM on June 11, 2013

Alright we just did our rewatch and damn if I'm not right down the rabbit hole. I won't make predictions, though, just observations.

- You're right, Sara C., about Sylvia's orange blouse and kitchen. Their whole place is orange, the door, the floor, the wallpaper, the wallhangings!

- Ted's office has lots of orange, as noted above-- wallpaper, lamp, sofa. Ted's bedroom is also orange. But Ted himself just wears his mustard yellow.

- Bob's tie in the "true love" conversation is orange-brown striped (also blue to echo Pete's; Pete is all in blue this episode). I think this is about blending with Pete and Pete's office, though, which I'm sure TLo will comment on.

- Of course there's a ton of orange in the Drapers' place too, down to the table setting in the last scene. Megan wears black & red (both outfits).

- More scary, Sally's room has orange bedspread, pillows, and wallhangings.

Okay so, maybe Janie Bryant was just having fun with orange on the Sunkist episode, just as there was a lot of yellow on the margarine episode?

Also I have a hard time seeing orange as a big signifier for a show depicting the seventies. But no question there was a LOT of it.
posted by torticat at 12:57 AM on June 12, 2013

If during an episode called "Favors" Sally is completely devastated when confronted by her father's true nature, what kind of emotional bloodbath is going to take place in an episode named "The Quality of Mercy?" It's going to be grievous.

On a lighter note, Elisabeth Moss says Peggy Olsen is "totally a cat lady."
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 2:23 AM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]

I've been pondering Pete and Bob. Upthread I said my read was that Bob was genuinely in love with Pete and I wanted to go back and watch their interactions earlier in the season. So yesterday I did that, and now I'm certain Bob's in love with Pete (and related, obviously, that he's truly gay). Anyway here are some observations for what they are worth.

Ep 3 Bob was stopping by Pete's office after hours to compliment him ("first in and last out, I don't know how you do it") and offer to pick up anything he needed at the deli.

Ep 6 he is at the brothel with Pete (why? no apparent reason except he's hanging out near him), not partaking but offering to pay for Pete.

Ep 9 he is getting ready to go to the beach with Joan. She says she wishes she could get a beach house and he asks "Doesn't Pete Campbell have a beach house?" (Is he fishing for info here?) He also compliments Pete ("he's generous"). Since Pete's not there, this can't be part of any plan to manipulate him.

At the end of that episode he gives Pete the Manolo information and tells him Joan is concerned about him and that "your wellbeing is also an interest of mine," an interestingly personal way to put it.

In the most recent episode, in the knee-touching scene, he echoes that line in painting the picture of a person in love, "your wellbeing is his only thought."

In both these scenes, he's wearing (different) brown and blue striped ties that tie in with Pete's office and with Pete's own blue ties. I normally pay attention only to the basic obvious stuff with the color coding, but even I can see this signifies two people in accord, not at odds with each other (especially when it's repeated in two scenes with echoing dialogue).

Okay, so Pete. On rewatch I honestly didn't see revulsion in his reaction to Bob's come on. He continued with the party line (Manolo's fired, and tell him it's disgusting), but he said it in quite a gentle way. I don't know what to make of this except that he actually likes Bob and was maybe moved against his will by what Bob said? Also, in the followup scene, he discovers he's out of cereal and throws the box in frustration. I don't know if he consciously realizes there, or not, that he lacks EXACTLY the kind of caretaking partner that Bob just described to him.

Back to Bob--regarding Matt Weiner's "he's a liar, glad you noticed" comment, I'm going to assume at this point that that was Weiner's tricksy way of noting that Bob is hiding something (that interview was before the last episode), but that now we know the secret was just that Bob was gay. All Bob's lies have been white lies, and "closeted" seems to fit with that better than anything more sinister.

And finally: there is a funny little triangle with Bob and Pete and Joan. Joan and Bob have helped each other out, obviously. I assume Joan knows Bob is gay (we know she has functioning gaydar). Pete has asked Joan for advice about his family relationships, and Bob's interested in one with Pete. I think Joan's going to play into this story line again. Or maybe I'm just hoping so.
posted by torticat at 3:33 AM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]

Peggy named that cat Stan, no doubt. I mean, he's so furry and ginger this season. It would just be a (copy) writer's vengeance for a ~~minor~~ non-existent, friendship infraction.
posted by moody cow at 4:11 AM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh my, Sally as Yentl. I am dying over here. It's a bit of a think to think on.

To me it sounded like he gave her an explaination without quite going into "It will shock you how much it never happened", but still a similar idea.

I too, torticat, want to/can see Bob / Joan / Pete triangle. Especially if Ted / Pete / Peggy break out on their own (what would they do with the kids? I don't think they can break up Stan and Ginsberg, and the lady with them doesn't seem to have significant contributions we've been allowed to see).

Speaking of missing people, where is Peggy's secretary?

Started rewatching the season again, just to look for Bob.
posted by tilde at 5:24 AM on June 12, 2013

Actually, I wish they'd shed some light on any of his clothes this season, beyond the fact that he's started wearing three-piece suits like Roger. He's consistently looked strange to me this year, not at all like any of the other men on the show... What would clothes like this connote at the time?

I've been pondering on this one. All I can think of is that maybe Trudy was the one who always took care of his wardrobe. They've been coming apart since the end of last season, so it's likely that he's been dressing himself all year, and is probably scraping the bottom of the wardrobe barrel.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:34 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

Or could the clothes be part of his overall impotence to stem the tide of change; his wife isn't 'behaving' the way he wants*, his FIL has turned on him*, he's losing out accounts and still not a named partner, and so he's trying to dress the part he think he should have now if it were 10/15 years ago. But things are changing and he's noticing but sometimes trying not to (ref argument about things changing he had with Don when Don told him to get out of the industry a few episodes back).

I think he is getting and buying richer clothes, but that they aren't being fitted to him well, but they fit the illusion of who he thinks he wants to be / should be. Dressing the part; like now a days we say (and maybe then, too!) you dress the part of the job you want to be not the job you are.

And with no woman in his life to take care of things, he's getting bad advice (and falling behind on his shopping).

Mmmmm ... I have a hankering for some oranges.
posted by tilde at 5:42 AM on June 12, 2013

[* They aren't following what he sees as the rules for his path of success that Don (who he used to near worship and flatter like Bob but less subtle) has forged for himself (sans Dick Disillusionment) and other successful men seem to have followed. The others are breaking the "rules" while he is doing what he knows is the right way to do things.]

Remember, Pete spent a lot of time trying to fit in with the guys his age, but was acting like the guys older than him from the beginning. Groping the gal at the burlesque club to the point where she objected seriously. Hopping on Peggy and treating her cruelly afterwards (and not noticing she was effing pregnant). Trying to be "one of the guys" and not doing it that well, and I think they putting up with him because he was an accounts man with connections (which is why he was hired and not fired that one time) and not on his personal strengths (like Kenny, though wasn't he "the girl on prom night" when they were testing out the deodorant spray on).

Which reminds me - where the hell is Ken? We've seen precious little of him.

And Pete spent a lot of his early years buttering up Don and trying to be like him until the government thing came down the line and Pete had to fix it for him (which was paid back by Don covering part of his partner contribution).

And I didn't keep track of all the numbers, but names on the door aside, isn't he a Junior partner still, though not as Junior (stake size wise) than Joan?
posted by tilde at 5:51 AM on June 12, 2013

The Mad Style post for "Favors" is up, and it's really good!
posted by orange swan at 6:12 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

I haven't seen anyone online mention these two similar scenes.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:15 AM on June 12, 2013

Whoa, that Mad Style bit, it's like they've been reading our conversation.

( in thier discussion of Bob in the context of his time and place I am struck with how closely I can identify with Mr. Benson despite growing up nearly half a century later in a very different world, I'm pretty certain that If I had gone into law like I was * supposed* to, I'd be carrying two coffee cups and working through self-help books too. It's ..kind of unsettling really)
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 AM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]

Also, how did I miss that Manalo is wearing an ASCOT.
posted by The Whelk at 6:39 AM on June 12, 2013

Huh, so Pete's ahead of the game, fashionwise. He's just so frowny faced all the time it totally looks off to me; I still see him as a younger guy dressing old. Plus, I only really looked at his outfit when he was throwing Raisin Bran around.

T/L confirmed Pete is still a Junior partner, with more guys ahead of him (the three from CCD) than before.

The "best little boy in the world" syndrome is of interest to me; I've seen it in real life, but usually paired with some kind of learning disability that made it maddeningly impossible.
posted by tilde at 6:50 AM on June 12, 2013

While there is probably less "deflect questions about your sex life by being super busy and on top of things at all times" out there today there is still a lot of "Well huge swaths of the populace think I'm worthless/not worthy of rights/degenerate/etc so I'm going to beat them. I'm going to be fitter, smarter, richer, and more accomplished then they are because I've externalized my entire self-worth." just from personal experience.
posted by The Whelk at 7:15 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peter is wearing high-end conservative men's fashions. It may look stuffy to us and hopelessly square to the counter-culture types around him, but it'll play well in certain social circles and in the arena where Pete wants to succeed. And he'll never ever look like the total douche Harry does or have reason to cringe at family photos of himself in later years. If there are any family photos of Peter.
posted by orange swan at 7:50 AM on June 12, 2013

Are we ready to go down the oranges rabbit hole?

Yessssssss. I immediately thought of Megan's ridiculously fabulous crochet jumpsuit, which was more of an orangey-red -- but her costar (and, later, suitor) definitely wore orange.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:02 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

Huh, so Pete's ahead of the game, fashionwise. He's just so frowny faced all the time it totally looks off to me

Also keep in mind that, for the men now as well as the women, we're heading into a time period where the entire aesthetic is the definition of frumpy and awful to contemporary eyes. I have the same problem with Peggy, where I think she looks awful and matronly, but really she's probably dressed in what passes for fashion forward professional lady clothes in 1968.
posted by Sara C. at 9:09 AM on June 12, 2013

Megan's ridiculously fabulous crochet jumpsuit, which was more of an orangey-red

I was going to point that out, but on my screen it really red more like something in the world of burgundy or raspberry. You may be right, though -- Amazon's video interface is pretty awful and I've missed a lot of subtle things like that this season.
posted by Sara C. at 9:11 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

we're heading into a time period where the entire aesthetic is the definition of frumpy and awful to contemporary eyes

True, but I feel like Megan pulls everything off because of her fashion-model body.
posted by sweetkid at 9:13 AM on June 12, 2013

Yeah, Megan is the exception to the rule, like the girl you see walking down Bedford Avenue dressed like Jackie from Roseanne who is somehow pulling it off.
posted by Sara C. at 9:19 AM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am actually friends with a 21 year old model on Facebook. She dresses way 90s. Like John Lennon glasses + hats + scoopneck velour tops + patent leather oxfords + leather cord necklaces + cuffed denim shorts. And looks consistently amazing.
posted by sweetkid at 9:25 AM on June 12, 2013

Yeah, I had this extremely hip PA last year who I'm facebook friends who pretty much exclusively wears leggings as pants, patent leather doc martens, and huge baggy Nirvana t-shirts. If I were to wear this, I would look like a filthy shlub. But she manages to look adorable. We are waaaaaay off the topic at this point.

I guess what I'm saying is that I feel Peggy Olson's pain.
posted by Sara C. at 9:31 AM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also keep in mind that, for the men now as well as the women, we're heading into a time period where the entire aesthetic is the definition of frumpy and awful to contemporary eyes.

A little from A, a little from B - though I do have some period costuming experience (given my age I don't have direct adult memory but I'm not a kid any more, eek! Mostly second-hand memory from family albums and cleaning out closets from the era). I still think that even with buying up like he is (Sterling looks soooo good it's hard to see he's the outdated one) Trudy could do better than he does on his own. And the unmasked sour face /posture he's got going on even with his aging/"aging" just makes it worse.
posted by tilde at 11:17 AM on June 12, 2013

Having read this week's Mad Style, I have to say that I think TLo and I are on the same page about Sal and Bob. Their tone about the whole Bob Is Gay thing in their recap (which is where that whole part of the piece really belongs, not in Mad Style) was too glib, and they were so focused on Toldja So that they couldn't actually make their point.

I'm still wondering how reliable a narrator Bob is about his immediate past, though. While Don, Roger, Pete, etc could easily check out his bona fides, they probably wouldn't. I also think the lies probably aren't in the names he hefts around, but in the way he uses them. He uses them as a sort of armor or a passport to prove something about himself. Which is a little bit unusual.
posted by Sara C. at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

There's a new FPP on the Mad Style post for 'Favors.'
posted by sweetkid at 12:57 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

which is where that whole part of the piece really belongs, not in Mad Style

Seriously, they did that snotty Toldja So on Monday and then wrote this really moving, interesting thing on Bob and wedged it in Mad Style? I can see how they maybe needed more time to work on it. But it could have been its own thing, it's their blog.
posted by sweetkid at 1:33 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

Every time an ascot clings another Manolo gets his wings.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:13 PM on June 12, 2013

I already miss this thread. Those fly-by-night posters that are jumping on board the Bob Benson discussion train are making me cry. No extra cup of coffee for them!
posted by crossoverman at 4:29 PM on June 12, 2013 [5 favorites]

We liked Bob Benson before it was cool!
posted by The Whelk at 5:09 PM on June 12, 2013 [5 favorites]

LET'S JUST STAY HERE
posted by sweetkid at 5:15 PM on June 12, 2013 [2 favorites]

I do want to be Bob for Halloween. I'm not sure how well I could do boy drag though, esp WASP drag.
posted by sweetkid at 5:16 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

jumping on board the Bob Benson discussion train

The Bob Benson Bandwagon, surely!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:51 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]

People who have turned down gay passes:

-Joan
-Sal
-Peggy
-Megan
-Pete

And the one that hit on Megan was half of the swinger couple that hit on her and Don, right? If that means they swing a little differently than we might've assumed at the time, throw Don onto the list too.

Did I miss anyone?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:42 PM on June 12, 2013

I'd say Don counts! I assume both members of the swinger couple are interested in both Drapers -- after all, Mel was the one enthusiastically asking Megan where she'd found a man like Don, exclaiming that he could cast him.
posted by thesmallmachine at 7:03 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

(My memory may not be perfect on that one. Was it Arlene who asked where Megan had found this man? Mel definitely had the "cast him" line, though, and they were both zeroing in.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 7:07 PM on June 12, 2013

I do want to be Bob for Halloween. I'm not sure how well I could do boy drag though, esp WASP drag.

Easy! All you need are two cups of coffee, short shorts, and a goofy, endearingly melancholic smile.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:08 PM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]

Easy! All you need are two cups of coffee, short shorts, and a goofy, endearingly melancholic smile.

I know but people will be like but boobs and your tan, tan skin.

Both of which are some of my favorite features but not good for costumes.
posted by sweetkid at 9:04 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

Easy! All you need are two cups of coffee, short shorts, and a goofy, endearingly melancholic smile.

Actually you need the coffee, the "dry-look" schoolboy cut, a navy traditional blazer with brass buttons and thin lapels (I know he has a dressier black jacket but he's kinda the only office character to wear blazers a lot so it's more iconic), white dress shirt with a loose (read broad, not stiff) but button-down collar, stripped club-style tie and tan to sandy chinos or dress pants and probably (although we never see them) a dark brown shoe like a chukka boot.

Not..that..I own..these things.
posted by The Whelk at 9:15 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]

dear god there is a reason there is an authentic 1941 field officer uniform in my closet isn't there?
posted by The Whelk at 9:20 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]

Not..that..I own..these things.

Mad Men cosplay at The Whelk's house. I'm coming as Joan.
posted by crossoverman at 9:59 PM on June 12, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'll be Trudy. Or Joan's mom. If I come as the latter, I'll need someone to be my swarthy young handyman.
posted by Superplin at 10:05 PM on June 12, 2013 [1 favorite]

I have been thinking about this last episode all night, and I've come to one conclusion. I think we're going to see Sal again. I know, everyone has said that's not possible. But I have this feeling that the Bob Benson storyline will end up giving us a glimpse of gay culture outside of the office, and we'll briefly see Sal again. Or he'll run into them at another agency, (I can't decide if he'll be in glass closet, or still in the closet but more comfortable with himself. I hope it's not him in the closet and miserable and scared.) But there have been too many people from earlier seasons coming back to not see Sal again. What I'm not sure is if they'll do it in the next two episodes, or if it will be next season. But I almost think it has to be this one.

Also, Damn you metafilter! I never obsessed over Mad Men as much as this season; which is coincidentally when I started following the MM threads. Sunday is so far away. . .
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:16 AM on June 13, 2013

I've been predicting the return of Sal for ages, and nobody ever agrees with me.

I don't need him to be out. I'd just like to see him working as a commercial director, and maybe having somehow found a little peace.
posted by Sara C. at 12:25 AM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I'm sure your comments are where the idea gestated. I just keep thinking about not only the story arch this season but how Weiner likes to misdirect, and this season seems more so.

Or maybe Bob Benson is Sal's kid from his loveless marriage, sent back from the future to slowly destroy the agency that slowly destroyed his father through the guilt and shame and living in a loveless marriage. Because we've all decided that part is at least true, right? That Bob is some form of time traveler?
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:30 AM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'd love to see Sal again. But I wouldn't want to know too much. I'd like some moment or a scene. Not a subplot like Paul Kinsey got last season, but just a cameo sometime. I admire Weiner's restraint, but I'd like him to give into temptation, just this once.

But do it next season. Do it in 1969. Don't put him at Stonewall, that's what Bob is for. Or maybe have them at Stonewall in early 69, before the riots.

Ugh. Now it's sounding like fanfic.
posted by crossoverman at 4:17 AM on June 13, 2013

Knowing this show if we ever see Sal again he'll be working for Nixon or something.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:07 AM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sally will walk in on him and Henry.
posted by drezdn at 5:50 AM on June 13, 2013 [5 favorites]

and your tan, tan skin.

Get a friend to dress as Bob and you can be Manolo.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:55 AM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I noticed for the first time when scrolling through the Mad Style post that Sally's paper that her friend addressed to Mitchell is leaned up against a bottle of wine on the counter. I wonder what happens to it? Sylvia throws it away because that's one complication they DON'T need? Seems weird that she put it there in the first place.

Well, remember, Don told Sylvia that Mitchell would just have to sign his name to a letter. Maybe she thought that was it? (Plus, what's she gonna do, leave it on the floor?)
posted by Sys Rq at 6:34 AM on June 13, 2013

Oh, I guess I assumed she would have looked at what it said. It looks childish, all folded over and over, not like a normal letter.

She wouldn't have thought it was the air national guard letter, because Don would have just given that to her, not slid it under the door!

But yeah, it's true if she didn't read it it would make sense for her to leave it on the counter for Mitchell. But then... poor Sally!
posted by torticat at 6:55 AM on June 13, 2013

Maybe she thought that was it? (Plus, what's she gonna do, leave it on the floor?)

It would be hilarious if she sent that to the Air National Guard.
posted by drezdn at 6:57 AM on June 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

I have a feeling that Weiner has specifically been trolling us by having characters like Danny resurface but not Sal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:07 AM on June 13, 2013

I wonder what happens to it? Sylvia throws it away because that's one complication they DON'T need?

She gives it to him with a sideways glance and a smirk and says, "Someone slipped this under the door for you."

He glances at it, blushes, and throws it away (or possibly slips it into his sock drawer to enjoy again later when he needs a self esteem kick or a laugh). "Kids..." he thinks to himself. He will now have trouble making eye contact with Sally Draper for the rest of the summer. He tries to avoid her, but fails once or twice. Once they share an elevator ride, and Sally might have noticed he was blushing if she'd been able to actually perceive reality through her deep aura of humiliation.

aaaaand scene. I really don't think it would affect him one way or the other, nor do I think Sylvia would care about it. Sally is a lot younger than Mitchell, and he has a whole other world of stuff going on. I mean, imagine yourself at 19, and then imagine that a 13 or 14 year old slips you a note like that.
posted by Sara C. at 7:24 AM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

Thanks to the other thread I was thinking more about the timing of Bob's knee-tap right after Pete delivers his "degenerate" line. Here's how I think it makes sense:

Bob has genuine feelings towards Pete.
By observing Pete in the office for months, he observes Pete is relatively progressive on some issues.
Still, he can't get a full read of what he thinks of gay people so he is not sure if/when to make his move.
When Pete delivers his "degenerate" line Bob figures if that's his stated position he may as well make his case for true love knows no boundaries and be done with it.

At that point, all the extra cups of coffee and errand-running and helping out in the world is not going to sway someone, so Bob feels he may as well step it up and give it the right place all the time, power of positive thinking big pitch. At minimum, I think he believes Pete will not fire him. I think Bob truly believes that he can persuade Pete that he is not a degenerate.

It's a calculated risk, but still a risk. But "love/lust makes people take unnecessary risks" is a pretty common happening in the world in general and in the Mad Men world in particular.
posted by mikepop at 7:48 AM on June 13, 2013

When Pete delivers his "degenerate" line Bob figures if that's his stated position he may as well make his case for true love knows no boundaries and be done with it.

I was thinking of it more like... Pete, whether he was gay or not, wouldn't be likely to openly express any sort of acceptance for homosexuality in a business environment, so the fact that he referred to it as 'degenerate' doesn't necessarily mean he isn't open to it. He could be totally gay and just covering it up. More important than what Pete says is the fact that Bob realizes that the topic of conversation has been steered towards homosexuality, which gives him an opening to drop a suggestive nonverbal cue into their interaction. If they had been talking about baseball or an account, the knee thing would have been a non sequitur. As it is, he still has plausible deniability, but he's made his feelings pretty clear.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on June 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I also was thinking it was along the lines of seizing the opportunity, since one like that might not ever present itself again (Bob's been tailing Pete looking for one for months). But I like your analysis too, mikepop. It could be both.

Related to that, TLo said they would "leave it to others to theorize as to whether Pete might be open to the idea of something less heterosexual in his life." Should we pick up the mantle?
posted by torticat at 12:02 PM on June 13, 2013

Related to that, TLo said they would "leave it to others to theorize as to whether Pete might be open to the idea of something less heterosexual in his life." Should we pick up the mantle?

I have a hard time imagining it, personally... but then, this is the same uptight WASP who smoked a j last episode, so I suppose anything's possible.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:36 PM on June 13, 2013

My first inclination is that any guy who cheats on his wife (with other women) that much probably isn't gay. But that doesn't rule out his being somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey Scale.
posted by Sara C. at 12:39 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I find that pretty plausible. When you're as interested in women as Pete is, and you're also somewhat interested in men, and you come from a social context where the former is rewarded and the latter is vilified, it's pretty easy to keep the latter out of your life and your consciousness. Who knows how many of the men at SC&P have entertained a fleeting thought or two, then hastily redirected their gaze towards a secretary's ass? I think some part of Harry will always be at that nude meeting with Charlton Heston.
posted by thesmallmachine at 1:25 PM on June 13, 2013

I have a feeling that Weiner has specifically been trolling us by having characters like Danny resurface but not Sal.

It will be interesting to see if Weiner will give that small gift to the MM audience. A gesture of appreciation, however briefly Sal may appear, before the show ends next year. If he does, I'm really curious how he will do it.
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 2:17 PM on June 13, 2013

I really don't think Pete is gay. I think he considered what Bob was saying for a second because it was about open acceptance and love, and his own mother had just told him he was always unlovable.

Poor Pete.
posted by sweetkid at 2:23 PM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also: I really hope Sal doesn't come back. It's like the BRING FIREFLY BACK of Mad Men.

If he does come back he should be wealthy but incomprehensibly cruel like Heathcliff when he returned to Wuthering Heights.
posted by sweetkid at 2:24 PM on June 13, 2013 [10 favorites]

OK, I laughed out loud.
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 2:30 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's like the BRING FIREFLY BACK of Mad Men.

At least Firefly got a movie!

Serenity: The Sal Romano Story
posted by crossoverman at 4:54 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

eponysterical
posted by sweetkid at 4:55 PM on June 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, Megan is the exception to the rule, like the girl you see walking down Bedford Avenue dressed like Jackie from Roseanne who is somehow pulling it off.

You've seen this, right, Sara?

I don't think that Pete even consider what Bob was saying in the context of himself, but rather processed it as "this guy is saying something that resonates given my shitty-ass position right now," then realized it was about himself and bristled up with his degeneracy comments. That's my take, anyway.
posted by mynameisluka at 5:05 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yes I was specifically alluding to that but too busy at work to link it. So thanks!
posted by Sara C. at 6:21 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I thank whoever took the time to not only make that correlation, but turn it into Tumblrness.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:30 PM on June 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

"Agreed, Brie is seriously underrated. She has genuine depth as Trudy, and her comedic talents on Community seem to get overshadowed by the other actors."

Don't watch 5 year engagement guys, her British accent will have you reconsidering the judgement you have in your own tastes...

here's me prior to blowing my brain out from 2.5 hours of unedited meandering awful appatow/seagal dreck : "oh emily blunt! I like her, doing a brit! that's nice... oh she has a sister... YAY allison brie! ... waaaait a minute, how's this going to work, is she adopted?? is she going to to an acceeennnnnnnn----t?"

*promptly breaks out into Vader-Wilhelm NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"*
posted by stratastar at 12:01 AM on June 14, 2013

At minimum, I think he believes Pete will not fire him. I think Bob truly believes that he can persuade Pete that he is not a degenerate.

Here's another thing, I think Pete does make a concession as a result of Bob's speech. He offers Manolo a month's pay, which is not something I think Pete would give someone he was firing for cause. (The severance pay makes it seem more like "this arrangement isn't working out" than "he's a degenerate rapist," which is where Pete started out in the conversation.)
posted by torticat at 5:26 AM on June 14, 2013 [2 favorites]

Did anyone else see The Good Wife plot parallel, by the way? Peter Florrick hired a probably gay nurse companion, the Cuban Cristian Romano, for his slightly stroke addled mother. They got along fabulously well and his mother was happier than she's ever appeared on the show. Alicia Florrick and her son discovered that Jackie had googled "What are brands of condoms" on their computer and were all stricken and staring at each other until Alicia found a solution. "WE WILL NEVER SPEAK OF THIS AGAIN." Both nod, and exit the room in different directions.

Peter on his part became suspicious from other signs that the guy was sleeping with his mother. He offered him money to disappear from his mother's life. Cristian took the money but didn't quit his job. Peter was not happy. I'm amazed that Mad Men even used this plot when The Good Wife had already done such a similar one, but perhaps they came up with it before The Good Wife aired theirs and it was just too far along in production to change it.
posted by orange swan at 10:26 AM on June 14, 2013

Previously.tv compared the two episodes side-by-side, and gave the advantage to The Good Wife.
posted by donajo at 1:27 PM on June 14, 2013

If that's a coincidence, it's an astounding one. I mean, both men are named Peter! Both have snobbish, high-handed and addled WASPy mothers! Both nurse companions are Spanish-speaking! The parallels are so many and so exact that I think it has to be a coincidence because no show would deliberately copy another like that, especially not one of the calibre of Mad Men.
posted by orange swan at 3:40 PM on June 14, 2013 [1 favorite]

The Good Wife does rip from the headlines though, albeit more COTW-like. Maybe Spanish nurses and elderly WASP ladies getting it on is a thing? Although it's more likely, as you said, sheer coincidence.
posted by moody cow at 2:59 AM on June 15, 2013

T minus an hour and 13 minutes. Bust out the short shorts.

(Assuming this is still the MM thread of record... yes?)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 5:49 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

(Assuming this is still the MM thread of record... yes?)

There is another thread, but I for one would prefer to keep the general chatter to this already-pretty-general thread.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:45 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm eating pizza and fresh from four seasons of Supernatural this is now the Mad Men thread.
posted by The Whelk at 6:46 PM on June 16, 2013

Ha, we're almost finished watching "Terminator 2" on Netflix. It's like having dessert before dinner.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:47 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

LETS DO THIS
posted by The Whelk at 6:51 PM on June 16, 2013

I agree this is the thread k thanks
posted by sweetkid at 6:51 PM on June 16, 2013

I predict lots of vague things will happen to rich white people and it will be meaningful, or not.
posted by The Whelk at 6:55 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]

And Don will say "What?"
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:56 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also True Blood is on after and seriously they should have a crossover.

Just imagine the Pam and Joan interaction.
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

If what might happen does end up happening, can we please call it CAMPSON?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:57 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don Draper is a Whatosaurus.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:00 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Did anyone bring juice?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:01 PM on June 16, 2013

"Something has to change"

*breathes into paper bag*
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:01 PM on June 16, 2013

Who are these Jaquemettons and why does it take two of them to write this?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:01 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Okay I've fallen asleep on the couch cause I didn't want to wake SO by getting into bed, what?
posted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on June 16, 2013

You look terrible.
posted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on June 16, 2013

he really does look terrible.
posted by sweetkid at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2013

NO ONE SHOOT KEN
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

They have showers in 1968, right?
posted by dry white toast at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2013

OH SHIT!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2013

WHAT
posted by sweetkid at 7:04 PM on June 16, 2013

... Too late?
posted by rewil at 7:04 PM on June 16, 2013

OMG, they killed Kenny!
posted by dry white toast at 7:04 PM on June 16, 2013 [11 favorites]

Okay I've fallen asleep on the couch cause I didn't want to wake SO by getting into bed, what?

He was asleep on Sally's bed.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:04 PM on June 16, 2013

It concerns Sally.
posted by The Whelk at 7:05 PM on June 16, 2013

Father's Day episode. Interesting.
posted by sweetkid at 7:06 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Aw, Vaughn Meader.
posted by rewil at 7:08 PM on June 16, 2013

get your hand outta my face.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 PM on June 16, 2013

Why are people still talking when Ken's been shot? These Jaquemettons are minions of Beelzebub.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:08 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Why did I tell you that?
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

No one loves Harry.
posted by rewil at 7:09 PM on June 16, 2013

Oh Rosemary's Baby callback.
posted by sweetkid at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2013

ROSEMARY'S BABY
posted by The Whelk at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don Draper has a judgey face!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

I like how Megan was all OMG
posted by sweetkid at 7:11 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

That building is the Dakota and Yoko Ono lives there
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

So is it me or does Megan dressing way older?
posted by dry white toast at 7:11 PM on June 16, 2013

MEGAN I AM HAVING FEELS FOR YOU. This isn't fair, she's trying so hard.
posted by sweetkid at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2013

Well I for one, am not drinking Minnie's drink any more.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:12 PM on June 16, 2013

No one eat the chocolate moose
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on June 16, 2013

Okay, so now please to be explaining what happened to Ken.
posted by dry white toast at 7:13 PM on June 16, 2013

As much as it also fills me with a sense of doom, seeing both Peggy and Ted all smiles fills me with happy.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:15 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pirate Ken!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:16 PM on June 16, 2013

Hot.
posted by rewil at 7:16 PM on June 16, 2013

KEN
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 PM on June 16, 2013

Fact: The tears of Ken Cosgrove cure cancer.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:17 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Hey, how about Bob Benson to handle Chevy.
posted by dry white toast at 7:18 PM on June 16, 2013

Not dead, just Cheneyed.
posted by gladly at 7:18 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, send Pete. He can shoot back.
posted by rewil at 7:18 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

THAT'S A 22
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Nononononononononononononono. STEP AWAY FROM BOB.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2013

Yes, this is Bob Benson's moment to shine.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2013

We are always finding someone who likes Bob
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on June 16, 2013

JUST KEEP SHAKING THAT HAND
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on June 16, 2013

Bob Benson will cut a Pete.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:23 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

WOW. BOB. WOW.
posted by sweetkid at 7:23 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

Bob's backbone is quite fetching.
posted by gladly at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

PALINDROMES
posted by sweetkid at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2013

Bob Benson is gaslighting Pete.
posted by dry white toast at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Hell hath no fury like a bob scorned apparently.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2013

It's Superbob!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2013

The one-eyed man watches us all.
posted by rewil at 7:26 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

KEN MUST NOW GO TO THE ODINSLEEP
posted by The Whelk at 7:26 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Why would they be sharing a hotel room? They should have their own (this was also an AskMe)
posted by sweetkid at 7:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Meghan is wearing Red which means she is going to give birth to a cacodemon.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

DUCK! No really, it's Duck.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:29 PM on June 16, 2013

BOB BENSON SPEAKS PERFECT SPANISH YOU GUYS
posted by The Whelk at 7:30 PM on June 16, 2013 [7 favorites]

Ted and Peggy are such nerds
posted by sweetkid at 7:31 PM on June 16, 2013

"Hijo de puta!"

I think I dislocated my jaw, it dropped so fast.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:31 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

YOU'RE THE BABY DON
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

OMG I want to see outtakes from this scene
posted by sweetkid at 7:31 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

BUDGET. You have to send a producer with them dammit.
posted by sweetkid at 7:32 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Slam that door Pete, you know how unlovable you are.
posted by The Whelk at 7:34 PM on June 16, 2013

When did Mad Men turn into The Crush?
posted by dry white toast at 7:35 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, totally starting up the talented mr. Benson theory.
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on June 16, 2013 [5 favorites]

Team Bob Benson Conspiracy.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on June 16, 2013

Also, totally starting up the talented mr. Benson theory.

Totally.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:37 PM on June 16, 2013

Sally is trapped in an episode of Gossip Girls.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:40 PM on June 16, 2013

OH GOD IS ONE OF THEM A DEMON?
posted by The Whelk at 7:40 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sally is trapped in an episode of Gossip Girls.

It's just Girl singular Gossip Girl
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 PM on June 16, 2013

GLEN!!
posted by dry white toast at 7:41 PM on June 16, 2013

Jesus, I hate Glen.
posted by gladly at 7:42 PM on June 16, 2013

I KNOW HOW TO MAKE A TOM COLLINS
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

She knows how to make a Tom Collins because of her fine Draper upbringing....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wait Glen got a little hot.
posted by sweetkid at 7:43 PM on June 16, 2013 [5 favorites]

If I was a 15 year old girl I would like Glen
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh ho, Mr. Bob.
posted by rewil at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2013

THE TALENTED MR. BENSON IS ON!!!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

Great Caesar's Ghost Mr. The Whelk was right!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

OH GOD OH GOD BEN IS NOT BEN HE IS KENNETH FROM THRITY ROCK OH GOD
posted by The Whelk at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

THE TALENTED MISTER BENSON
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

"I have...DRAPER"
posted by sweetkid at 7:45 PM on June 16, 2013

Wow, I wondered a few episodes ago if Bob was another Dick Whitman. WOW.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:45 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Glen's still a bad actor though.
posted by sweetkid at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2013

"Diplomacy Club" IS SO ON
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

SHE'S LIKE 15 DUDE
posted by The Whelk at 7:47 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sally wins.
posted by dry white toast at 7:47 PM on June 16, 2013

Love Sally's smile. That apple does not fall far from the tree...
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:48 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

I DON'T WANT TROUBLE TO HAPPEN TO SALLY
posted by The Whelk at 7:48 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

That Rollo is bad news. He is going to grow up to be a manservant.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:49 PM on June 16, 2013

So is this season it for Bob Benson? WAH.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:50 PM on June 16, 2013

My love for Sally is pure and wholesome.
posted by dry white toast at 7:50 PM on June 16, 2013

Sally has the weirdest life,
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Jon Hamm is busting out all of his face acting for this episode.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

no producer in this meeting grr
posted by sweetkid at 7:54 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

I know what you want to hear.
posted by box at 7:55 PM on June 16, 2013

Mr Plow? That name again is Mr Plow.
posted by sweetkid at 7:55 PM on June 16, 2013 [6 favorites]

Uuuuh don?
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on June 16, 2013

He is not.
posted by rewil at 7:55 PM on June 16, 2013

Oh God don no
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on June 16, 2013

Oh no you didn't Don Draper you did not just steal Peggy's CLIO.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on June 16, 2013

Oh don you did so many awful things with one sentence.
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

Don's one to talk.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:57 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

IS THIS FANNFIC WHUT
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 PM on June 16, 2013

Mr. Plow does not approve.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:58 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

THIS IS NOW FANFIC
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 PM on June 16, 2013

Now all of those AMC Black Swan ads seem very timely....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on June 16, 2013

Pete!
posted by box at 8:00 PM on June 16, 2013

FANFIC
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on June 16, 2013

WHAT THE HELL
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on June 16, 2013

PANFIC!
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2013

Pete now owns Bob.
posted by dry white toast at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete learned something and modified his behavior slightly! This is a big day!
posted by rewil at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

What the I don't even

(No really)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:01 PM on June 16, 2013

Sally wut oh god, FANFIC THIS IS FANFIC
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Here Sally, have some cancer YOU'VE EARNED IT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:02 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

You're a monster.
posted by The Whelk at 8:03 PM on June 16, 2013

Theme from head!
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013

Closed Captioning tells me that (Porpoise Song) the theme from Head is playing. Don.
posted by peagood at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013

More awesome things from John Hamm's face.
posted by dry white toast at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Fetal position FTW.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013

Both the women Don really loves are rejecting him.
posted by sweetkid at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]

Cue 'Everybody Hurts.'
posted by box at 8:04 PM on June 16, 2013

Well, now I officially don't understand anything.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:05 PM on June 16, 2013

Exactly sweetkid.
posted by dry white toast at 8:05 PM on June 16, 2013

This is the original context of this week's closing music.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:06 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob Benson wants to do bad things with you.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on June 16, 2013

I'm starting to wonder if these MAYBE BOB'S NOT EVEN GAY people were right.
posted by sweetkid at 8:11 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Bob is going to be made by Philip Jeymour Hoffman
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on June 16, 2013

I love how, in a single episode, Bob went from being two-dimensional to seventeen-dimensional. Shit got real, people.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:14 PM on June 16, 2013 [7 favorites]

James Wolk. One to watch. FANTASTIC work tonight.
posted by sweetkid at 8:16 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]

So, can someone please explain why Pete acquiesced the way he did? I get that he was referencing Don/Dick, but "I give up"? What would he lose by outing Bob's shady past? Is it the fear of being found out that he hired Bob without checking references?
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:19 PM on June 16, 2013

Bob's going to endorse a limited-edition Chrysler. Or maybe a Lincoln.
posted by box at 8:19 PM on June 16, 2013

So, can someone please explain why Pete acquiesced the way he did? I get that he was referencing Don/Dick, but "I give up"? What would he lose by outing Bob's shady past?

Besides his mother, you mean?
posted by Sys Rq at 8:21 PM on June 16, 2013

Besides his mother, you mean?

I don't get the sense that her welfare is what motivates him. But I don't know -- seriously, that whole scene confused the hell out of me.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:27 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

(Much in the same way Bob seemed confused, come to think of it.)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:27 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

So, who did hire Bob Benson?

I think Pete thinks he now has an evil minion with a secret that he can manipulate. He is seriously underestimating Bob.
posted by readery at 8:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

The question now is who will be the next hunting accident victim?
posted by Sys Rq at 8:30 PM on June 16, 2013

Did Don and Ted trade uniforms in the theatre? Odd to see Ted in a shirt and tie and Don in a turtleneck.
posted by peppermind at 8:37 PM on June 16, 2013

It seemed like finding out about the shady past changed his mind. I'm not sure why though - it didn't change anything for Draper when Pete told Cooper because it's Draper. With Bob, sure the others like him but enough to keep him on with all the lies? On a big account? But Pete's "i give in" seemed to imply he didn't believe he could get rid of the guy based on the Draper outing experience.

That's the way I read it as well. Plus Pete's got enough dirt on Bob to keep him at bay if things start to go bad. Pete can cause a lot of trouble for Bob if he chooses to or if his hand is forced.
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 8:37 PM on June 16, 2013

I think he's trying to get out of the situation with Bob what he failed to get out of the situation with Don. Don was too valuable to manipulate that way.

But Pete's calculation is that Bob is vulnerable enough to be controllable. Pete hasn't been able to control anything since the merger. But now he has Bob in his pocket.

But he's essentially gambling his future at the firm on it. And given that Bob will be the point man for their biggest account, and given how calculating Bob showed himself to be in tonight's episode, it's a pretty big fucking risk.
posted by dry white toast at 8:38 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

I was just reading Sepinwall's review, and his take on it matches my initial thoughts quite a bit.

It's a big thing for Pete -- he's approaching the situation differently, realizing that he doesn't have the social skills that Don or Bob have but this time he can maybe maneuver things so those skills can benefit him instead of work against him.

It is basically a douche move and the long term implications could hurt him badly, but then Pete can't change completely.
posted by rewil at 8:41 PM on June 16, 2013

Yeah it's a risk. How powerful will Bob become?
posted by TrolleyOffTheTracks at 8:42 PM on June 16, 2013

Peggy's SC&P press note, on letterhead, via AMC's Mad Men Twitter account. Note the superseventieslicious new logo, featuring, of course, the color orange.

https://twitter.com/MadMen_AMC/status/346465039873626112
posted by mwhybark at 8:47 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also True Blood is on after and seriously they should have a crossover.

Just imagine the Pam and Joan interaction.

The Entire Premise of True Blood Explained in 36 GIFs
posted by homunculus at 8:49 PM on June 16, 2013

A smidge about the Jacquemettons. From season 5.
posted by purpleclover at 8:49 PM on June 16, 2013

Peggy's SC&P press note, on letterhead, via AMC's Mad Men Twitter account. Note the superseventieslicious new logo, featuring, of course, the color orange.

Anyone else hoping she would just write "Adventurous Girls Do" and then dance around her apartment to Robyn?
posted by sweetkid at 8:53 PM on June 16, 2013 [3 favorites]

For the season finale, I'm putting my money on Dick Whitman truly catching up with Don. That's where we started the season, and I think the whole Bob thing is foreshadowing. Why bring a new character in just to repeat Don's narrative (granted it could just be for Pete-related plot development)? It only seems useful if it moves Don's narrative further along.

Alienating Sally and Peggy (and Megan) isn't going to get resolved in one episode, it will probably take most of next season. So the only thing left to do with Don this season is to lay every last thing bare. I think Megan will leave too.
posted by dry white toast at 9:11 PM on June 16, 2013

Dr. Zira: “Love Sally's smile. That apple does not fall far from the tree...”

I developed a new appreciation for Kiernan Shipka tonight. The face she makes when she pulls that lying-ass power move on Whatshisface to get Glen to beat him up. Her coy look to the side, eyelash bat, and nose wrinkle after the blonde said, "You like trouble, don't you?" Those are totally Betty moves, and Shipka pulled them off flawlessly. You can direct the motivation, but you can't direct that performance.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:16 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]

Peggy's SC&P press note, on letterhead, via AMC's Mad Men Twitter account. Note the superseventieslicious new logo, featuring, of course, the color orange.

Sorry, no I cannot accept a draft that does not start out "The firms of Margaret Olson and This Is Some Bullshit would like to announce ..."
posted by purpleclover at 9:17 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

"You like trouble, don't you?"

SALLY IS US
posted by Sys Rq at 9:34 PM on June 16, 2013

I'm mentally editing last week's "Next week on Mad Men" promo to feature Ted and Don crying like babies and Joan offering up chicken soup.
posted by palomar at 10:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]

There is some weird time stuff going on this season. So many callbacks to the past throughout, and now "Next week on Mad Men" is basically "Previously, on Mad Men."

Maybe it's a "what goes around, comes around" kind of thing, with a twist. Pete handles the Benson reveal just a little differently than he did with Don. Sally handles the discovery of her dad's betrayal by taking control instead of passively responding the way young Dick did in his day. So next on Mad Men is more of what we've seen before, but with a different outcome in these different times.

I have no idea what all this means, but, uh. Time. It's a thing.
posted by Superplin at 10:53 PM on June 16, 2013

Whelk was right about Miss Porter, but Madmen being Madmen, of course nothing is as it seems, and the sheer cruelty of those scenes, are unrelenting.
posted by PinkMoose at 11:41 PM on June 16, 2013

So, are we to infer that Sally planned the whole ordeal from the start -- telling her mom and the interviewer just what they wanted to hear to secure the overnight stay with no intentions of actually attending, and then playing innocent at first with the girls before eventually letting on that she could deliver boys, alcohol, and weed -- all just to have some party time on her own away from Betty and the mansion?

Or did she actually desire to attend the school so that she wouldn't have to make excuses not to see her dad any more, and was just really good at improvisation and manipulation when the reality of the interview became evident? I'm kind of leaning towards the latter.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:58 PM on June 16, 2013

the social circle was small enough for glenn to be part of it, and he did say keep in touch, which is ambigious, because we dont know how much sally has been in touch or not.
posted by PinkMoose at 12:03 AM on June 17, 2013

Did anyone else's heart make a leap when the school director used Carla's name? I mean, it could have happened, right? I was all like OMG CARLA SALLY REUNION

But no.

I am also completely confused about what happened with Pete and Bob. Will have to rewatch.
posted by jokeefe at 12:43 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

given how calculating Bob showed himself to be in tonight's episode

How calculating did Bob actually show himself to be? I'm not so sure about that. He was very pissed at Pete when Pete tried to get him off Chevy, yes, but he had reason to be. He denied having come on to Pete, but we all knew he'd aimed for plausible deniability, and obviously the come-on didn't go over well. He has a CV "like steam," but does that make him a bad guy? He could just be a poor kid from the sticks who did what he had to do to make a go of it, no? And gay to boot, things can't have been easy for him in Va or WV or wherever he came from. He was ready to run when Pete confronted him with his background; but what else would he do?

Also, I'm gonna say, and maybe I'm completely CRAZY, but I thought there was serious chemistry between B&P in that last scene. Not that Pete knew it exactly (or was aiming for it), but it was there. I could be nuts; mighta been all the Ted and Peggy love in the air.
posted by torticat at 12:54 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

So, are we to infer that Sally planned the whole ordeal from the start -- telling her mom and the interviewer just what they wanted to hear to secure the overnight stay with no intentions of actually attending

Why would she not be attending? I thought everything looked good on that front.

As for how the night played out, I don't think she planned anything, just called Glen for a favor when she needed it.

I LOVE Glen. Have never understood all the hate for that awesome kid. How could Sally have a better friend? He's always there for her, he understands her, he converses with her and never tries to push their friendship into anything icky. Love him.
posted by torticat at 1:02 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]

Here's how I understand the pieces to fit together.

Bob says, "I don't care how nice she is," when he's speaking on the phone in Spanish and calling Pete a son of a bitch. Later, Pete's mother shows up at the office and reports that she ran into Manolo, who asked her to implore Pete to stop treating Bob badly. Therefore, I think we can assume that Manolo was the person Bob was speaking with and "she" is Pete's mother. The two of them (Bob and Manolo) are likely in some kind of relationship, as they both are advocating for each other -- Bob trying to finagle a severance deal from Pete, and Manolo using Pete's mother to convince him to let Bob continue working on the big accounts. This would mean that Bob's flirty knee thing in the previous episode was more about appealing to Pete's ego and his need for admiration/attention/love/respect/whatever than it was about having any kind of actual romantic feelings for him.

You can tell that Bob has gotten this read on Pete because even when he's being busted for fraud, he still gets in that line about "it was the best day of my life, that day you complemented me on my tie." As an aside, I think that Pete was probably a contributing factor to his hiring in the sense that he didn't raise any overt objections when meeting him, but he probably was not the one that actually signed any paperwork or anything. Bob is again manipulating Pete by suggesting that he was responsible, because he doesn't yet know that Pete isn't going to fire him and so he's grasping for anything that might convince him to keep it quiet. He knows that Pete probably wouldn't even remember a single thing about the hiring or interview process regardless of how much participation he had.

Ultimately I think that all this manipulation was successful. Pete realizes that he can get what he actually wants -- the avoidance of any kind of further sexual advances from Bob ("I'm off limits!") -- without having to risk anything that's associated with a firing for fraud, such as the embarrassment of the hiring process. It helps that he was burned in this situation in the past, and thematically it of course ties in to the rest of the episode, but I think ultimately it was just a mental excuse that Pete allowed himself; his reasoning certainly made no sense whatsoever to Bob. It really is Pete's best case scenario to allow Bob to continue working with him. He gets his ego stroked in that way that only Bob Benson can, the partners will see it as Pete just putting aside his grievances and getting along, the client will be happy with continuity, the sexual advances will go away, there is no chance for blame or recrimination, and he can continue using the threat of exposure for future gains, if necessary. Both parties end up getting what they wanted out of this deal.
posted by Rhomboid at 1:12 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

Why would she not be attending?

A young girl volunteering to abandon her entire social circle and go off to a boarding school where she won't know anyone and will ostensibly be under stricter rules and scrutiny? I always imagined that as being something that was forced on a kid for bad behavior or for other reasons outside of their control. It's a very cynical read, that she would go to all the trouble of setting up the interview as an excuse for a party without the intention of following through. And as I said, it's probably wrong.
posted by Rhomboid at 1:25 AM on June 17, 2013

Also, I'm gonna say, and maybe I'm completely CRAZY, but I thought there was serious chemistry between B&P in that last scene. Not that Pete knew it exactly (or was aiming for it), but it was there.

You're not alone, especially when Pete stepped forward. I'm really sad that Wolk has committed to something else and will likely not be around much next season. The variety of tensions that are building up around Pete and Bob, the nuance we're finally seeing in Bob's character, just don't seem like things that can be resolved in one more episode unless the whole damn thing is about him.

A lot of people here get credit for calling Bob's backstory (including -- I assume this is the intended reading of the "manservant" thing -- the relationship with an older executive who served as his entry into this world).

Why do I admire Sally for entering the world of nasty excess and power-tripping that I admire Ken for leaving? Part of it is that, with her mind and the connections she's going to make at that school, she's going to get the power her mother never had, and that seems right. Whatever Betty said about Sally getting what Betty wanted for herself, it might've been the first time I've ever seen a mother say a line like that in fiction and had good feelings about it -- partly because, whatever Betty's flaws as a parent, she's neither a pushy stage mom nor someone who'd undermine her daughter out of envy. Sally made this decision for herself, and Betty falls into step with her, using all of her skills and connections to help make it happen.

I suppose the Avon thing worked out (and we were just meant to assume it worked out), because Joan is acting as an accounts person with St. Joseph's, right? She's helping plan the pitch, closely involved with the budget, present at the meeting, stepping in with the traditional "I'll show you out" at the end.

There was just so much "holy shit" this week that I feel barely able to react to Peggy's "you're a monster," which was mind-blowing and felt like the cumulation of their whole arc together -- the cumulation of the series. Where can things even go from here, apart from firings and quittings and actual deaths?
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:00 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

This would mean that Bob's flirty knee thing in the previous episode was more about appealing to Pete's ego and his need for admiration/attention/love/respect/whatever than it was about having any kind of actual romantic feelings for him.

That doesn't explain Bob's interest in Pete through the whole season, before Manolo came on the scene. Pete's been really down and out--talking to Duck about other job possibilities, pleading with Peggy not to pity him for god's sake. Not that Bob knows all that, but certainly Pete's not presently the kind of power player at SC&P that an ambitious schemer would try to attach himself to. I don't think there's any explanation for Bob's interest in Pete except for a personal one (and I actually believe the story about the tie).

Bob and Manolo might have had some kind of relationship in the past, but my read is they're just friends now. Bob didn't exactly finagle that severance on purpose; he'd segued to his own interests by that point in the conversation, and was lucky Pete turned things back to Manolo and offered the severance instead of punching him in the face.
posted by torticat at 3:24 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think ultimately it was just a mental excuse that Pete allowed himself

Coulda been a mental excuse covering up for the latent attraction Pete feels toward Bob. ;)
posted by torticat at 3:31 AM on June 17, 2013

At the very least, Bob was calculating enough that he has ambitions, saw Pete as standing in his way, and used Manolo to try to deal with Pete.

An again I say, nothing in the history of the cast and the show suggests that Wolk getting a regular spot on a series means he can't still be involved in the show next season. But beyond that, yes, while the Bob storyline has been fascinating, you have to admit it's taken a way screen time from a lot of other characters, particularly Joan. There's a trade off to making him prominent.
posted by dry white toast at 3:52 AM on June 17, 2013

I haven't minded the Bob screen time because Wolk is great but also because his time involves Pete, and Vincent Kartheiser is so fantastic. And I'd far prefer to watch him locking antlers with Bob than having an affair with that moon-eyed what's-her-name.

Re: Joan, I was trying to think last night which characters the finale will focus on, and I think Joan & Avon will be revisited. And maybe we'll get a bit more on Ginsberg and his mental problems? I'm guessing we're done with Betty and Sally for the season. Though I suppose we could see the crisis when Betty finds out what's eating Sally, which is probably inevitable, but I hope it's next year.

Definitely hoping Ted & Peggy will stay in the spotlight. That "you're a monster" line was, as thesmallmachine said, devastating.
posted by torticat at 4:50 AM on June 17, 2013

Hard to say with Betty and Sally. Betty was obviously still feeling chemistry with Don in their phone call. Plus, she was wearing a total Betty Draper dress. But we probably won't get anything more than hints.

Don's running theme of trying to make problems go away with money continues. When Betty raises boarding school, Don immediately jumps in with "I'll pay for it!" Dude does not know how to create, sustain, and particularly rebuild emotional connections with people.

The fascinating contrast to me between Peggy's and Sally's renouncement of Don was that, in Peggy's case, Don was genuinely trying to help her. My sense of his relationship with her was that he mentored her but didn't protect her from the sometimes ugly realities of the ad business, because protecting her wouldn't do her any favours. In most of her confrontations with Don this season, I've been on her side, but this time I was totally on Don's. But he still pays essentially the same price for being right as being wrong.
posted by dry white toast at 5:05 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

protecting her wouldn't do her any favours

I agree that Don was in the right, both in a business sense and in a mentor sense as you say. However--he wasn't completely thinking with his head either. There was no need to humiliate Ted; that had more to do with Don's jealousy, and he had to know it was going to alienate Peggy. I think the price he paid with her wasn't so much for messing with the account but for the brutal way he went about taking Ted apart.
posted by torticat at 5:18 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

In most of her confrontations with Don this season, I've been on her side, but this time I was totally on Don's. But he still pays essentially the same price for being right as being wrong.

I think he's more paying the price for the way he handled it. Instead of sending the budget over during casting and then giving Ted an anxiety attack as he ambiguously unfolded his secret plan to save the meeting (which he did, as much as it could have been saved) he could have handled it in a much less dramatic fashion.

First, he could have pulled Ted aside privately after he realized his feelings for Peggy were affecting the work/budgeting negatively and had more or less the same talk with him they had after the meeting. Then after Ted had time to digest that, have Ted deliver the new budget to the client and hear his and Peggy's plan to address the client's objections in the meeting (Jim Cutler would also be in this meeting). After listening to their ideas propose the radical last-resort "dead partner" strategy to be used only if all else fails. Even modify the story so that Peggy co-created the idea so she can still get the CLIO. Jim was all for jumping on the idea when it seemed to be working. Then Don doesn't even have to be in the meeting. Ted and Jim and Peggy can take care of the whole thing.

Instead, he did it the way he did it to maximize chaos and confusion and to give Ted a heart attack in the meeting. And not just to help Peggy but to destroy Ted. He puts his plans in motion as soon as he can after seeing them at the movies when he calls Harry Crane back. Previous to that he nixes the Tropicana deal, tries to start being focused with Megan by going to the movies. After the movies his focus moves entirely to Ted and everything else is left behind.
posted by mikepop at 5:29 AM on June 17, 2013

Also, I caught the groovy new logo on the wall of the office but thanks for the letterhead link! Notice how Cooper is being squeezed out already. As much as he is seen as irrelevant to the firm's operations these days I wouldn't be surprised to see him die before the show ends and this death be a catalyst for things falling (further) apart.
posted by mikepop at 5:33 AM on June 17, 2013

Rhomboid: "A young girl volunteering to abandon her entire social circle and go off to a boarding school where she won't know anyone and will ostensibly be under stricter rules and scrutiny? I always imagined that as being something that was forced on a kid for bad behavior or for other reasons outside of their control. "

Actually, I would have killed for the opportunity to get way from my parents, even if it meant all those things, because my mother was cray cray and my father ineffectual. But in the context of the show, for all we have seen of Sally's social circle, the girl from last week's episode was not portrayed as a particularly close or desirable friend. Whereas Glen, who was banished from her life by Betty, turns out to be a true friend. Rocking up with the booze and the dope, giving her cred with the mean girls and coming to her defense against his own friend.

Also, rules or scrutiny is not what I think Sally wants to get away from. She hates her mother, because she's awful to her, which is not news to us. But now she also wants to get away from her father who in last week's epi shattered whatever faith she had left in parental figures -- and adults in general, I imagine.
posted by moody cow at 5:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

The kicker with Don's little stunt at the meeting (and it really was a low point even for Don - it was practically grave-robbing) is that now Peggy can't get the credit she deserves for waht everybody recognizes as a great ad.

Add the side dish of hypocrisy (Don's spent how many years getting the life or death of the firm caught in his zipper?) and he deserved Peggy calling him a monster.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:46 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

It's Monday morning why has the Internet not yet delivered Don Draper "Waaaaaa" gifs?
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:50 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

I cannot see how Don was "helping" Peggy. The concept for the commercial was hers, and she hoped it was good enough that she'd get a Clio for it. Then Don claimed in the meeting that the idea was Frank Gleason's idea. Now Peggy won't get any credit for her idea outside the firm. She won't be getting the Clio even if the commercial wins one, and she can't even put the commercial in her book.

I think it's true that Ted needed a wake up call about the effect his feelings for Peggy was having on his work, but Don should have taken him aside and spoken to him privately about it. Instead he pulled the rug out from under Ted and Peggy in a way that devastated Ted and made Peggy hate him. Don's own feelings for Peggy blinded him here, and as Peggy said, he can't handle the fact that Ted's a good man. Don saw something he couldn't have and that threatened him, and his response was to try to destroy it. It was, as Peggy said, monstrous.
posted by orange swan at 5:51 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

This episode was like 80% ominous smiles.
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Dr. Zira, will this do?
posted by peppermind at 6:18 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

I love that Betty's finally happy. We're actually seeing her doing some decent parenting now. Singing Father Abraham with her son — when have we ever seen her doing anything playful with Bobby? She's actually trying to ferret out the reasons for Sally not wanting to see her father and thinking about her well-being ("I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing"). She was trying to talk to Don about it in an effort remedy the situation, though of course he was no help. And while she isn't entirely happy about the idea of Sally going to boarding school (what mother would be), she remembers that she wanted to go herself and doesn't want to thwart Sally's goals for herself as her own were thwarted, and so she does her best to help her get accepted. She was proudly quoting Henry's opinion that Sally could be an ambassador. I'm actually really impressed with that — a 1968 housewife hoping for a political career for her daughter? That's awesome.

Then in the car with Sally, Betty was really trying to talk to her, and being quite patient with Sally's attitude. She may even have actually succeeded in getting Sally to tell her a few things about the school by first telling her what the headmistress had said about Sally. Betty will never be the mother of the year, but I think we may see her become a half-decent one, that she'll do better with her teenaged children than she did when they were grade school-aged, because she's so much happier and because she finds them more interesting.

The scenery in the Betty and Sally car ride looked so fake.

I kept waiting for Sally to get busted during the dorm room scene. Boys, booze and pot in your room the first night at school, Sally? Pace yourself, honey. I love that you were tough enough to turn down that boy, and get him beat down when he was a pig about it. Don't lose that confidence or that insistence on what you want.

Glen's actually a stand-up guy who genuinely cares about Sally. I still think Marten Holden Weiner can't act worth beans, though.

Poor Ken! I hope he doesn't lose his eye. Good for him for refusing to deal with those Chevy pricks. ("They wanted to stop the ambulance to have lunch!")

Poor Megan. She's trying so hard to save her marriage, and Don's just dead weight. You can't row that boat alone, babe.

Can't wait for more revelations about Bob Benson. Because you know there's more there.

I'm waiting for the spin offs: Bob Benson, Clean-Cut Man of Mystery, and Duck Phillips, P.I..
posted by orange swan at 6:38 AM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]

Oh, and...

Don: What, did you find a hooker who will take a traveler's check?"

Harry: [muttering] I should never have told you about that.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
posted by orange swan at 6:40 AM on June 17, 2013 [15 favorites]

The scenery in the Betty and Sally car ride looked so fake.

They used authentic period green screen techniques.
posted by mikepop at 6:47 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think it's true that Ted needed a wake up call about the effect his feelings for Peggy was having on his work

And Peggy didn't need a wake up call about the same problem? I see what people are saying about how it could have been handled differently, and recognition for Peggy's idea. Fair points all, but having Ted think all of Peggy's ideas are great (which he was doing with everything, not just St. Joseph's) isn't actually a constructive creative process or business strategy.

It's interesting thinking about how badly Don has done in pitch/client meetings this year. That's historically when he's been on the ball, regardless of whatever else is happening in his life. But starting with the Hilton meeting in the season premiere, the boundaries he used to be able to draw between personal drama and business have crumbled.
posted by dry white toast at 6:49 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

They used authentic period green screen techniques.

The scene earlier this season with Don and Ted in the plane was also shot in a way that made it look like a period film. I felt like I was watching North by Northwest. It's a nice touch that they add every once in a while.
posted by dry white toast at 6:51 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

Tom and Lorenzo's and the A.V. Club's recaps of "The Quality of Mercy" are up.
posted by orange swan at 7:00 AM on June 17, 2013

but the odd twist at the last second into a psychosexual master-slave scenario is utterly mind-blowing. Pete may act like he’s repulsed by Bob’s proclivities, but he’s clearly delighted to have his own little gay Don Draper doll to do as he’s told. We were in love with our “Best Little Boy in the World” theory of the character but we have to admit, this twist is infinitely more interesting – and as far away from Sal Romano as the show could possibly get in devising a new gay male character.

I kept thinking we where going to go to a very dark "The Servant" Dick Brograde place there.
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

When Sally went to the blond girl's bedroom door, I was sure she was about to walk in on another couple in flagrante.

Also, how adorable was Pete's "Annie Oakley" comment to Hildy?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:16 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

Tom and Lorenzo's and the A.V. Club's recaps of "The Quality of Mercy" are up.

Blech, Freud.

Ok, I'll read on.
posted by sweetkid at 7:19 AM on June 17, 2013

AV's reviews really seem like a stream of consciousness sometimes, considering how Todd spends several paragraphs on Shakespeare and Freud. Though he also references Nixonland which I happen to be reading along with this season, and it's a great companion book. I second the recommendation.

Also strongly agree with his point that Don's been adrift since Anna died, which I've mentioned in the past. She was what allowed him to resolve his internal contradiction, or at least hold both parts of himself in tension and keep it together, even if he still caught others in his wake. He thought Megan could do that for him, but not so much. Maybe that hasn't really been on option since "nobody loves Dick Whitman."
posted by dry white toast at 7:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

TLo's recap is pretty good, I'd say. And they were fairly humorous about acknowledging the flaws in their assessment last week, which I commented on in the other thread.

Regarding the Clio, do we really know that Don endangered Peggy's shot at it? She's still credited with the ad; does it matter where the inspiration for the idea came from?

He thought Megan could do that for him, but not so much

That's a nice observation, dwt. Poor long-suffering Megan. It would be good for her sake if she "woke the fuck up" as TLo said, but I'd rather see Don change his ways and give her the relationship she deserves. Not that that's likely. But I really do like them together. For all the angsting way back about their marriage, she interacts with him in a mature and compassionate way, and I think he truly admires her.
posted by torticat at 7:50 AM on June 17, 2013

why do I keep thinking of Tina Fey shouting "No! Me baby!" on 30 Rock wrt this week's episode?

Happy Father's Day Don Draper! You're a monster!

Also, pet theory, Megan is putting up with this and being the best damn enabler ever cause she's covering the guilt she feels for an affair of her own thats going on in the background.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

I love Sally and Glenn. The two of them are totally going to run off and get married as soon as Sally's legal.

I had a dream last night that the show ends with Pete and Bob founding Benson & Campbell. It was a good dream.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:02 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I love Sally and Glenn. The two of them are totally going to run off and get married as soon as Sally's legal.

No, no they're not.

For one thing, I think they're friends (although I feel like he's only being shoehorned in here because he's Weiner's son, which is really annoying). Also, I don't think Sally is getting married as soon as she's legal. I mean, that will be 1972. She'll be on her way to college. Getting married as an upper class young woman from Rye/Manhattan...nope. Not just about Glen, I've seen "Sally's getting married at 18" come up a few times and it seems weirdly gendered and off character to me.

I had a dream last night that the show ends with Pete and Bob founding Benson & Campbell. It was a good dream.

I'd be cool with this.
posted by sweetkid at 8:07 AM on June 17, 2013

I love Sally and Glenn. The two of them are totally going to run off and get married as soon as Sally's legal.

I think I saw someone comment here that Sally's smirk when Glen attacks his friend was one of manipulation, but it came off to me as feeling special that he was defending her. How did others see it?

I mean, remember this is coming off the moment where she feels utterly abandoned by the man who she thought was looking after her. And here she has someone protecting her after all. I enjoy that Sally and Glen are clear on what their relationship is and isn't. I thought for sure Sally would feel betrayed when Glen went off with the other girl, but A) she seemed cool with it, and B) he put her safety over getting lucky...something her own father can barely be bothered to do.
posted by dry white toast at 8:11 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]

I think I saw someone comment here that Sally's smirk when Glen attacks his friend was one of manipulation, but it came off to me as feeling special that he was defending her. How did others see it?

I read it as her feeling special. She's hooked up with boys before, and she and Glenn keep protesting that they're like siblings, but (despite young Weiner's acting), they have pretty palpable chemistry. It feels mostly like something Glenn is doing to save face, largely because he never gives Sally the time or space to actually react to her, at least not in their last few encounters. But her actions (asking Megan for relationship advice, goading Glenn into defending her) suggest she actually likes him. And his actions suggest that too.

I don't think her getting married young is at all off-character or inaccurate for the times. Sally is rebellious, in small and significant ways. Getting married to someone her mother hates (who is nevertheless fairly uppercrust and well-educated herself) would be one easy and appropriate mode of rebellion, of taking charge of both her life and her sexuality in a way that would send a clear message to her parents. And it doesn't preclude her being college educated, either.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:19 AM on June 17, 2013

Can be a prequel series where we just follow a 20 year old Bob around the capitals of Europe
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

Oh, and I think it's unclear whether Sally was okay or not with Glenn and the blonde hooking up. She interrupts them, after all. Though I would have probably, too, if I got stuck with Rollo.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:24 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

They used authentic period green screen techniques.

The scene earlier this season with Don and Ted in the plane was also shot in a way that made it look like a period film. I felt like I was watching North by Northwest. It's a nice touch that they add every once in a while.

North by Northwest, and other movies of the period, used rear projection (basically a movie screen outside the window) for that sort of thing. It generally looked like obvious phony shit, but it would have looked better than this horrible green screen, where you can see the blurry halo around Betty's face, and where the passing foliage seems to stutter for some reason.

I think it's a little too generous to attribute it to homage when it's clearly just half-assed corner-cutting.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:25 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah I don't like the evaluation of Sally as being all manipulative in that scene--she's also described as lying about the other boy "forcing himself on her." Which, I dunno, she could have been being sly, but I thought she was genuinely feeling cornered and a little scared. She definitely didn't want to fool around, and the kid wasn't taking no for an answer.

Her smirk might have been a bit bloodthirsty, but poor kid, she's entitled.

However, here's a question, last episode she and her friend were talking about getting to second base and all that. You'd think Sally might be curious enough to want to fool around just to get the experience. So why does she refuse: because at heart she's young and doesn't feel ready, and she's centered enough to say "no" instead of giving in (yay sally); or because what she saw with Don and Sylvia soured her on the whole idea (sad sally)? I hope the "frigid" comment wasn't supposed to point to the latter.
posted by torticat at 8:27 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think Sally's handling of the boarding school situation should lay to rest any thoughts about Sally turning on and dropping out. Whatever baggage her parents have given her, she knew how to keep her wits about her. I mean, she could have gone Pete's route and blazed up, but instead she used her access to boys, drugs, and booze to get what she needed out of the situation. Up until now, I thought Sally was heading for a Lindsay Weir ending. Instead I think this episode points to her being an ambitious and cold woman who will eat anyone in her way. Not that that's not a damaged outcome in its own way.

For torticat's question, I think it's a little from column A, a little from column B. Her exposure to grown up sex has so far been strongly negative.
posted by dry white toast at 8:31 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

On non-preview: Sally's hooked up with boys before? I don't remember that.
posted by torticat at 8:32 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

According to the conversation with her friend, she's kissed boys. Which we've seen, but I took it (maybe incorrectly) as meaning something more recent than that. "Hooking up" doesn't necessarily mean sex. I just meant that she's probably made out with some dudes.

I just thought she really didn't like the guy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:35 AM on June 17, 2013

I think I saw someone comment here that Sally's smirk when Glen attacks his friend was one of manipulation, but it came off to me as feeling special that he was defending her. How did others see it?

I think that whole scene was about jealousy re: Glen and what's-her-face. While Glen thinks of Sally as a sister, I think Sally has other ideas about the nature of their relationship. So, as much as that other dude was for real a total sleaze that she needed to get away from, going and knocking on the door was more about getting Glen out of there, and would have happened even if the guy was a dreamboat and a gentleman. And then Glen was all heroic and she was all "He does love me!"

Not like that, Sally. :(
posted by Sys Rq at 8:35 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ha, that's funny because I totally read Glenn as being into Sally, just defensive of her possible rejection of him.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:37 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sally and Glen have set their relationship status as "It's complicated" on Facebook.
posted by dry white toast at 8:41 AM on June 17, 2013 [12 favorites]

Yea, I totally think Glen sees Sally as a sister.
posted by sweetkid at 8:44 AM on June 17, 2013

I've seen "Sally's getting married at 18" come up a few times and it seems weirdly gendered and off character to me.

I don't know about gendered, but, yeah, I'd be surprised if Sally ever got married. She must have built up some pretty hardcore cynicism about the institution by now that I don't see her shaking anytime soon.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:45 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

Ha, that's funny because I totally read Glenn as being into Sally, just defensive of her possible rejection of him.

Yeah, that could work too.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:50 AM on June 17, 2013

I'm taking bets that Bob has an engraved personalized silver cigarette case given to him by his old "boss".

I'm willing to believe he has several
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ha, that's funny because I totally read Glenn as being into Sally, just defensive of her possible rejection of him.

If that's true, he's missed some pretty glaring signals.
posted by dry white toast at 8:53 AM on June 17, 2013

I might be reading into it having had a really similar friendship/flirtation throughout my adolescence with a boy who actually looked a lot like Glen Bishop. Our failure to ever do anything more than hold hands was clearly rooted in an adolescent failure to communicate and terror over rejection, but in retrospect we pretty obviously wanted to jump each other's bones. Being a teenager is hard.

Of course, there's a pretty narrow window for that kind of relationship. If it doesn't happen past, say, age eighteen, GB will totally be relegated to odd family friend who Sally laughs about to her college friends to save face.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:59 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

From T&Lo: We’re not so sure Peggy’s Rosemary’s Baby ad was as Clio-worthy as Ted said. For one, it was creepy as hell. For another, ads based entirely on current pop culture references aren’t what one would consider a masterpiece of the form. Plop-plop, Fizz-fizz is a masterpiece because it was wholly original and ran for over a decade. Peggy’s St. Joseph’s Aspirin ad would be dated within 6 months. And we question whether any mother would find the ad, with its references to demonic babies, as comforting as it should be. It’s bold, certainly; but it strikes us as the wrong ad for that client.

Yep. Also: Racist.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:06 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

When Peggy and Ted were acting it out, it was so weird to see that awkward dynamic. They were a non-stop train of goofy Rosemary's Baby=better baby aspirin. To anyone else it was creepy.

Were they going ahead with it at such force to make their "movie date" seem more plausible?
posted by readery at 9:18 AM on June 17, 2013

One bit I found telling is Don flipping through the channels on his sick day and coming across Megan's soap. Granted, he'd prefer her not to be an actress and has never shown much interest in her and this show aside from the crazy I-will-come-to-your-set-and-glare episode. No one has VCRs yet and he's rarely home during the week and probably never watching TV if he is. So he comes across his wife on TV dressed as her own evil twin and he's not even curious enough to pause and see how she is an as actor or to even just take in more than ten seconds of what his wife spends all her time working on. The best part is that he flips to the next channel just as her character is yelling at the other person in the scene to pay attention to her.

Not sure how that relationship will implode but certainly there is more than ample ground laid for Megan getting a Hollywood movie offer and not feeling like anything is compelling her to stay in NYC.
posted by mikepop at 9:22 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]

Is it just me or does the phrase master blackmailer not really fit with the word Pete Campbell?
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 AM on June 17, 2013

When Peggy and Ted were acting it out, it was so weird to see that awkward dynamic. They were a non-stop train of goofy Rosemary's Baby=better baby aspirin. To anyone else it was creepy.

It was SUCH a perfect counter to the cool whip pitch. Peggy can act, too, when she's in love!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:24 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

You guys, I like Betty so mch better now!

And I think Sally has a burgeoning, if grudging, respect for her mother now, too, after being so rudely and suddenly disillusioned by her father. Girls rebel against their mothers in their teens as a matter of course, and Sally certainly has plenty of reason to rebel against Betty! Yet Betty is clearly happier now in her marriage to Henry, and I think it is making her a better mother. When she was with Don, nobody criticized the way she raised her kids. Henry's family, though, have made it clear that her children fearing her is NOT the sign of a good mother, and Betty seems to have softened up a great deal. Yes, she is strict about diplomacy club, but I think she's right that, for Sally, diplomacy club was an excuse to hook up with boys, and Betty saw right through that. Sally, pre Don-and-Sylvia, wanted to hook up with guys just to be rebellious. It's pretty clear that other than the short-lived Mitchell crush, Glenn is the only guy she's actually had any feelings for, because we've never been introduced to any of the guys she's supposedly been going to "second base" with.

Apres Don-and-Sylvia, Sally, I think, is beginning to get a glimpse of her parents' divorce from Betty's perspective. Note that when the other girls are talking about remarried fathers and 'fat' mothers, it is Megan who Sally throws to the wolves along with Don, not Betty, derisively noting he's remarried someone "my age". Sally is transitioning from poor little rich girl to ambitious young woman.

Betty was perfect in that boarding school interview, too, just perfect! She's really coming into her own now. Her marriage to Don, with all the anger and frustration and heartbreak she went through, only prepared her all the better to become an ideal politician's wife (the real "Good Wife!), and the butterfly metamorphasis from frumpy and fat to chic and sophisticated is just half of the equation, the superficial side. We're witnessing an overall maturation, inside and out, for her character.

Her one-night tryst with Don at camp put the final icing on the cake. For Betty, it was a healthy release, offering closure on her past life in a seriously gratifying way. Now it is Don waking up alone and lonely and wanting more, while Betty is happy and fulfilled by her busy, important life. And the fact that she didn't feel the need to gloat or revel in sweet revenge, but actually felt compassion for Megan, just shows how far Betty has come. Well done, Matt Weiner! And yeah, even January Jones gets kudos from me for that storyline.

So now we have the rebellious daughter, Sally, taking a page from her mother's (of all people!) book, and graduating from the Don Draper hero worship fan club. She's gone from passionately entreating for a trip allowing her to hang out with lots of boys to choosing an all-girl boarding school. Sally's perfectly poised to fully take advantage of all the new possibilities opening up to smart young women now. Though Don and Betty may still feel that involves Sally making a good marriage down the line, it's pretty clear that Sally herself is not going to put up with any bullshit from men, the way her mother did for so long.

If Betty is our Laura Petrie, Sally is our Mary Tyler Moore. I'm surprised the end credits weren't "You're Gonna Make It After All".
posted by misha at 9:32 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]

Re: Sally and Glen (is it one n or two?):

It was painful, watching Sally trying to make polite conversation while Rollo just ignored all the obvious cues and tried to roll (heh) right over her boundaries, but WOW the way she called him on it ("That's bullshit!") made me cheer inside.

I do think there was a little manipulation going on there, but to me it was born out of Sally being jealous of the roommate and wanting to prove to herself that Glenn was "hers". She saw her Dad cheating on Megan; he already abandoned her and her mom. She did not want Glenn choosing another woman instead of her.

When Sally put him to the test, Glenn chose her, and she took, yes, a slightly malicious pleasure in that. But I see that as a result of her needing reassurance, after Don just devastated her, that there were men in her life she could still trust. And Glenn passed the test.

So yes, Sally was pleased, but not because she likes trouble, though she let her roommate believe that. Why not? Much betterto be Sally, the femme fatale who has two guys fighting over her, than Sally, the jealous little girl scheming to get her childhood friend away from the competition.

Sally is definitely growing up.
posted by misha at 9:38 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]

Not sure how that relationship will implode but certainly there is more than ample ground laid for Megan getting a Hollywood movie offer and not feeling like anything is compelling her to stay in NYC.

Possible redemptive ending to this season (or the series): Megan gets a Hollywood offer, Don sees there's nothing keeping him in NYC and they head to California together, where they'll both be happier.

So, he runs away like he's always thought about doing. Only this time he does it with his wife. I doubt that's likely based on the current trajectory, but that's an optimistic possibility.
posted by dry white toast at 9:55 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

St. Joseph's Aspirin is a) orange in color b) weirdly artificial orange flavored

Re: logo

I have vague memories of seeing piles of old large-format, possibly tabloid-size, saddle-staple and squarebound trade mags around the creative and typesetting shops of my youth. Some of these were clip-art magazines, some were actual AdWeeks or similar news-oriented magazines, and some, if I recall correctly, were a type-and-design publication which featured either the new logo's large, display type ampersand or a similar one.

I seem to recall these publications dating mid-seventies to the eighties (which is wehn I would have seen them).

Am I imagining things? Was there a typography magazine called "&"? Was it perhaps called something which included an ampersand and that element was pulled out as the primary logo element?

As you can imagine, Googling for stuff about that character is a particularly tricky thing to do.
posted by mwhybark at 9:58 AM on June 17, 2013

Here's an interview with Vincent Kartheiser from a couple days back about Pete and Bob and the season in general.

I'd really like to see him as Mr. Darcy.
posted by rewil at 10:10 AM on June 17, 2013

This episode was interesting, too, for the way it placed everyone's relationships "out of context," which (I think) forced decisions that characters might otherwise not have made. Obviously Ken with those dudes, getting shot in the face and deciding to quit the account. But also Don at home while Megan's at work (which he can see on TV, and makes him uncomfortable/jealous); Peggy and Ted at the movies instead of at work, and Don and Megan at the movies seeing them and noting a new dynamic (which also makes Don uncomfortable/jealous); Sally and Glen in the context of a totally different setting, with other people (so they're no longer just kids who are neighbors maybe liking each other, but performing as teenagers hooking up, smoking, drinking, unsupervised by adults, playing the role of "grown ups")("I can make a Tom Collins!"); Peggy and Ted and their work relationship being thrown into a new light by Don's jealousy (causing Peggy to call him on his bullshit and confront her own anger towards him); the whole team in an uncomfortable situation with a client, giving Don the opportunity to act boldly and rashly in a way that nominally serves the client but really accomplishes his goal of putting Ted (and Peggy) in his place; and of course Pete and Bob (whose fabricated resume and Pete's knowledge of it pushes their relationship in a new direction—one that Pete thinks he has control over, though I doubt he really does); and Bob and Bob (his confrontation with Pete resulting in him allowing us to see his good-guy persona at work—that handshake conversation—making that phone call in fluent Spanish, allowing us to see yet another side of his character). Basically, all these moments of characters being pushed in uncomfortable, "fish out of water" directions, forcing them to improvise (sometimes poorly), act impulsively, and ultimately reveal things to us about who they fundamentally are.
posted by mothershock at 10:21 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

Don's giving credit to Gleason for the awful Rosemary's Baby ad might have been a way to protect her from the backlash when it fails. The dead guy had the bad idea. (Peggy and Ted, of course, did not see it this way.) Like, in Don's head it was chivalrous plan, if misguided and cruelly deployed.

I forgot that Rosemary's Baby was a Roman Polanski film. Creepy.
posted by purpleclover at 10:47 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don's giving credit to Gleason for the awful Rosemary's Baby ad might have been a way to protect her from the backlash when it fails. The dead guy had the bad idea. (Peggy and Ted, of course, did not see it this way.) Like, in Don's head it was chivalrous plan, if misguided and cruelly deployed.

Hmm good point.
posted by sweetkid at 11:07 AM on June 17, 2013

Mr Plow? That name again is Mr Plow.

I am guessing Abe Plough won't be thrilled with the Rosemary's Baby allusion to sell baby aspirin, and Don will have saved Peggy, but yeah he didn't have to dismantle Ted to do it. The Sunkist account would have been enough.

Interesting how Cutler is just utterly, utterly mercenary. Given the choice between backing Ted on principle and $$$, he will always go for the money.
posted by ambrosia at 11:08 AM on June 17, 2013

Mr Plow? That name again is Mr Plow.

I am guessing Abe Plough

No but it was more fun my way.
posted by sweetkid at 11:18 AM on June 17, 2013

Is it just me or does the phrase master blackmailer not really fit with the word Pete Campbell?

Quite. When push comes to shove, and Pete makes this great secret known, then what?

1. Sal said something like that once and look where it got him
2. "Yes, and he's the best damn gay fraud in the business!"
3. It turns out Bob and Joan are engaged and everyone think's Pete's a crazy asshole
posted by Sys Rq at 11:27 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

But the guy from St. Joseph's problem wasn't the content of the ad right? It was the budget inflation.

On an unrelated note, I just remembered wondering aloud in the last thread whether Ken would get caught up in any of the Detroit riots. Instead he got shot by his old white clients.
posted by dry white toast at 11:28 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Instead he got shot by his old white clients.

Don't forget they also put their hands over his eyes when he was trying to drive them somewhere, causing a car accident. I can't understand why they'd act that way towards him. I mean, if it were Pete we could also understand why they might hate him or have an utter contempt for him, but Ken?
posted by orange swan at 11:33 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

But the guy from St. Joseph's problem wasn't the content of the ad right? It was the budget inflation.

I think Don believes the ad will either fail the next level of management up or be a public embarrassment. I do not think his intention was to snatch the Clio from Peggy's hands and lay it on the grave of Frank Gleason. He does not think there will be a Clio.
posted by purpleclover at 11:36 AM on June 17, 2013

Okay so Detroit = Vietnam, right?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:37 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

Reading the wiki article on Schering-Plough ambrosia linked to: They are idiots for trying to take advantage of St. Joseph's this way. If they continued to coddle them they could end up with Maybelline (and Peggy could win her Clio with "Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline.")
posted by purpleclover at 11:39 AM on June 17, 2013

"Hooking up" doesn't necessarily mean sex. I just meant that she's probably made out with some dudes.

Yeah, PhoBWanKenobi, I was assuming you were talking about fooling around not sex. But I'm not sure Sally's even done that. She mocked her friend's experience, "going to second base twice," and her friend said "that's a lot more than you've done." I doubt she's ever kissed a boy.

Sally still comes across young to me. I also don't think she was jealous of the other girl with Glen; her ingenuous "do you two know each other?" when they were flirting didn't sound possessive, but naive. Likewise "we grew up together," which is an utterly innocuous, childish description compared to the special knowledge she could have claimed of Glen if she'd wanted to lay claim to him.

I do think Sally & Glen are a perfect match, for a later time. :) Just don't think Sally's there yet.
posted by torticat at 11:41 AM on June 17, 2013

Although if Don doesn't think the work is good and is trying to do the right thing in the wrong way, he's being a colossal dick when he encourages the work (even saying that it escapes the black hole of cultural-reference humor) rather than critiquing it in the early meeting. Maybe he just doesn't see the sense in trying to talk Ted and Peggy down?

Really nice use of the classic Mad Men "offered hand" gesture in the ad -- Peggy the happy, helpful young mother reaches out to child-Don, but on Ted's cue. That's got to hurt, and this is coming from someone who subscribes to the most negative possible interpretation of Don's actions (though I also think the ad is awful -- I just think it's supposed to be seen as good in-universe).
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:43 AM on June 17, 2013

Oh, wait, Schering-Plough already owned Maybelline. And the slogan is from 1991. (I should read things.)

Don is fucking up the relationship with Ted right and left: making promises he shouldn't about backing up the work he and Megan agree is ill-conceived, agreeing to let go the huge Sunkist account go (and then reversing course); what ever happened with Fleischmann's?
posted by purpleclover at 11:48 AM on June 17, 2013

I don't even think Don is capable of judging lately. The shots of him pouring vodka in to his morning OJ while Megan's getting ready for work, wasting her time worrying about poor, sick, overworked Don are just creepy. He's becoming unwound like he was right after the split with Betty when he was sitting alone in his dumpy apartment. But now he's living in a swanky place, married to a beautiful young TV star. This does not bode well.
posted by readery at 11:50 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Although if Don doesn't think the work is good and is trying to do the right thing in the wrong way, he's being a colossal dick when he encourages the work

Agreed, I believe we're to assume the work is good. Don wouldn't back an idea he thought was shit in a meeting with the client. Well, he did with Jaguar, but in an underhanded way that achieved his goal of nixing the idea. In this case he saved the idea (with a reduced budget).

Also Ted told him "the work is good and you know it" and Don didn't argue the point at all. He did tell Megan he thought the ad was disturbing, but that was to deflect Megan's interest in Ted & Peggy.
posted by torticat at 11:51 AM on June 17, 2013

I can't understand why they'd act that way towards him. I mean, if it were Pete we could also understand why they might hate him or have an utter contempt for him, but Ken?

Well, as the partners reminded Ken, clients will sometimes get their kicks off of their ad men, who just have to sit there and take it.

The hilarious part to me is how willing Pete is to sign up to take it..."You mean you don't want to take buckshot in the face?!? GET ME MY .22!!!"

It's great having Ken and Pete both doing accounts, since they are such a studied contrast in how to build a happy, successful life. Actually, they pretty much use Ken as a contrast whenever they want to portray the lengths someone will go to get his due.
posted by dry white toast at 11:56 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re: Don fucking up his relationships: I was particularly impressed by the call to Harry after the movie, which manages to screw Ted and Peggy and also deliberately insult Megan, who's been insisting that he shouldn't work today. Likewise, at least according to my call of the situation, the "Frank Gleason's last idea" move humiliates both Peggy and Ted (and wounds Ted by reminding him of his dead partner), along with screwing Peggy out of the credit for an ad the client loves. If we go on the assumption that the ad's no good and Don knows it, he's also screwing everybody long-term by allowing work to go forward that would've died a natural death without him.

The man is a born multitasker.
posted by thesmallmachine at 11:57 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

Bob Benson Twitter
posted by readery at 12:09 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I've been debating with myself whether Don thinks the ad is good, but I suspect that he's no longer capable of either judging or caring. First he backed out of active creative work; now he's punting on the managerial role which he said he'd retreat to. I'm not surprised that he's been pushed off the letterhead -- he's resigning from all of it.

What's really sad is that nobody at work would think of trying to help Don. He's alienated them too shatteringly, or exhausted them too thoroughly, and the last surviving part of Don is his ability to project competence.

In retrospect, I feel like Roger's admonition to Don to "be slick, be you" (or whatever the exact line is) actually is Roger's version of trying to help. It's just that Roger is childish and shallow and can only "help" by asking Don not to deteriorate further. I also imagine that there's anxiety there about Don's drinking as it relates to Roger's drinking -- so long as Don can drink and stay slick, then Don and Roger are bon vivants, but if Don is slurring and fucking up, then Don and Roger are alcoholics.
posted by thesmallmachine at 12:14 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

torticat: "Also Ted told him "the work is good and you know it" and Don didn't argue the point at all. He did tell Megan he thought the ad was disturbing, but that was to deflect Megan's interest in Ted & Peggy."

He said that based on the idea alone, though, before he knew the full concept. I agree that the sound of "baby aspirin commercial inspired by Rosemary's Baby" sounds pretty batshit disturbing, but the way it was conceived was more a humorous pop-culture wink toward the movie, but with a happy ending. I think most mothers of young children can relate to the frustration of feeling crowded by people pushing their childcare ideas, so holding up St. Joseph's as an empowering ally to "fight back the forces of darkness," even if those are just nagging family and neighbors, sounds like a solid ad idea to me.
posted by Superplin at 12:16 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Agreed, I believe we're to assume the work is good. Don wouldn't back an idea he thought was shit in a meeting with the client.

He says to Peggy and Ted when they act it out that the ad stands on its own even if you haven't seen Rosemary's Baby. I don't think we've ever seen Don lie about liking creative work to spare the talent's feelings before, and I don't think he's doing it here. What he should have done in that same moment was bring up the budget to them at the same time. Instead, he creates this unnecessary plot that winds up undermining and humiliating Ted and taking credit for the ad away from Peggy.

This all follows on him breaking his promise to Ted about Sunkist after he saw Ted and Peggy at the movies. Don is just as childish as Ted was last episode when he flopped on the couch and whined about "his juice." Don is just much more devious and willing to fuck over people to get what he wants.
posted by gladly at 12:17 PM on June 17, 2013

Just to bring things back around to the old saw: Rosemary's Baby featured Mia Farrow (the star of the soap opera Peyton Place who cut off all her hair), who earlier that year had visited the Valley of the Saints in India with The Beatles, who released "Helter Skelter" in November 1968. (Where are we in Mad Men time?) Rosemary's Baby was directed by the husband of Sharon Tate, the star of Valley of the Dolls who was murdered by a group who would scrawl "Helter Skelter" on the wall and cut off all their hair.

Oh, and on a more this-might-actually-be-something tip, Mia Farrow's much older husband (Frank Sinatra) served her with divorce papers after she refused to quit Rosemary's Baby and work with him instead.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:21 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pretty sure we're in October 1968. Fall colours outside, people are wearing coats, but the election hasn't happened yet because we saw a Nixon campaign ad.

Actually the timing the season finale with the election would work nicely to tie-it-in with the narrative span of the season.

Just remember, for many people the election of Nixon was when the 60's died.
posted by dry white toast at 12:26 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's late October, too, Sepinwall noted that the episode takes place after Jaqueline Kennedy married Aristotle Onassis, October 20, 1968, but it's still before election day.
posted by gladly at 12:44 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

So we should be seeing some awesome Halloween costumes next episode. Halloween-Election Day (Nov 5th). Just a reminder that George Wallace got 46 electoral votes!
posted by mikepop at 1:13 PM on June 17, 2013

Just a reminder that George Wallace got 46 electoral votes!

Total derail, but in reading Nixonland, my favourite thing about the Wallace campaign was his abortive search for a VP candidate. His first choice was Happy Chandler, a senator from Kentucky who appealed because he was more moderate and would dampen the air of extremism around the campaign. Except that Chandler had been the Commissioner of baseball when Jackie Robinson broke the colour barrier, and Wallace's supporters screamed that he was an integrationist. So next he went with Curtis LeMay, the retired Air Force Chief of Staff. But in his first press appearance, he went off about how people shouldn't be so scared of nuclear weapons.
posted by dry white toast at 1:39 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Rosemary's Baby didn't come out until June 12th, 1968. Gleason died at least a few months before that, I believe.
posted by cell divide at 1:53 PM on June 17, 2013

I was sitting there contemplating the fact that Don is drinking ORANGE juice, and then it happened.

THEY KILLED KENNY.

Fucking literally?

One million lawnmowers.
posted by Sara C. at 1:57 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

What he should have done in that same moment was bring up the budget to them at the same time.

Creative guys don't bring up budget.
posted by sweetkid at 1:59 PM on June 17, 2013

I was sitting there contemplating the fact that Don is drinking ORANGE juice, and then it happened.

THEY KILLED KENNY.

Fucking literally?

Wait you're not done.
posted by sweetkid at 1:59 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Rosemary's Baby didn't come out until June 12th, 1968. Gleason died at least a few months before that, I believe.

Gleason's funeral was after RFK was assassinated on June 6, 1968, so the timing is pretty close but there was a book before the movie, no?
posted by ambrosia at 2:00 PM on June 17, 2013

Yes there was a book before the movie.

Sally is reading it when Ida breaks in.
posted by sweetkid at 2:01 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

There was a book before the movie, but I thought the ad was a specific visual reference to the film. I had thought that the funeral was before the RFK assassination though so who knows, anyway it's close enough for plausible deniability and I doubt the St. Joseph's people would do the math, etc. it's just something I (thought I) noticed at the time.
posted by cell divide at 2:04 PM on June 17, 2013

Oh Ida. In a season full of crazy moments, you out crazied them all.

"are we negroes?"
posted by dry white toast at 2:07 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

I like how Don quite literally turned off from watching Megan being good at being really bad at being the alter ego of her performed self.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:08 PM on June 17, 2013

I like how Don quite literally turned off from watching Megan being good at being really bad at being the alter ego of her performed self.

What do you mean? I can't parse this comment.
posted by sweetkid at 2:15 PM on June 17, 2013

Ha, yeah it's somewhat unparseable. I meant that Don was watching Megan act a part on TV. The part she was playing was the twin sister (the alter ego) of her main character on the show, who has a really bad French accent. Megan was doing a really good job of performing her (not real) 'self', in which the job required her to do a really bad impersonation of a French-American woman. And Don didn't like it.

Probably for lots of reasons, but there's irony in that Dick is currently being sincerely and honestly bad at performing his new real self, Don, out there in the world. And Megan sees it, too. But she doesn't turn away (change the channel, so to speak) and actually gives him advice (lay off the throttle, etc.). And of course he rejects that too.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:43 PM on June 17, 2013

Don doesn't seem to like seeing Megan (or Peggy, for that matter) being good at *anything* – acting...even if it's a bad role, being a loving and supportive wife (reminded of Betty saying "Poor Megan, she doesn't know that loving you is the worst way to get to you"), making dinner (has he ever eaten a dinner she's made?) and on.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:48 PM on June 17, 2013

realizing that he doesn't have the social skills that Don or Bob have but this time he can maybe maneuver things so those skills can benefit him instead of work against him.

It is basically a douche move and the long term implications could hurt him badly, but then Pete can't change completely.

So Pete is Nixon?
posted by Sara C. at 2:53 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

isn't going to get resolved in one episode, it will probably take most of next season.

Or they'll just drop the whole thing. Like they tend to, with big plot developments in the last couple episodes of the season. We will flash forward far enough into the future for these nerves not to be quite so raw anymore.
posted by Sara C. at 2:58 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

You guys, I like Betty so mch better now!

I've only read the Vulture and Sepinwall reviews and only skimmed comment sections so far, but Betty is getting almost universal acclaim for her behavior this episode, even with/including the cigarette offer, which is standard issue bad parenting for 2013 but less so then.
posted by sweetkid at 3:01 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

A young girl volunteering to abandon her entire social circle and go off to a boarding school where she won't know anyone and will ostensibly be under stricter rules and scrutiny? I always imagined that as being something that was forced on a kid for bad behavior or for other reasons outside of their control.

FWIW, I did this, once upon a time. When I was exactly Sally's age. And for some of the reasons that Sally might want it. I've always thought it was odd that Boarding School is portrayed as this big scary punishment in the American media, when actually boarding school was the best thing that ever happened to me and some of the happiest times of my life.
posted by Sara C. at 3:02 PM on June 17, 2013

Or they'll just drop the whole thing. Like they tend to, with big plot developments in the last couple episodes of the season.

Exactly, kind of like how no one is exactly grieving over Lane.
posted by sweetkid at 3:02 PM on June 17, 2013

the connections she's going to make at that school

FWIW -- and I don't know a ton about Miss Porter's specifically -- those sorts of schools were more finishing schools for girls of a certain social class than they were places for someone to Make Important Connections. The idea in decades before Sally would have been that girls from Miss Porter's would go to Seven Sister colleges and marry promising Ivy League men. We're looking at the life plan that made the protagonist of The Bell Jar want to kill herself. Not a beeline to the corporate ladder or a political career or whatever people are thinking.

That said, my guess is that this is something that would have been changing around Sally's era, and that the girls we saw in this episode might have been expected to be more ambitious. Certainly by the time this generation of girls is college age that would have been the case. Hillary Clinton went from Wellesley to Yale Law, not to being a society lady.
posted by Sara C. at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

First, he could have pulled Ted aside privately after he realized his feelings for Peggy were affecting the work/budgeting negatively and had more or less the same talk with him they had after the meeting.

Yes, but remember that, for the Mad Men writers, it's always better to make a choice that involves people screaming at each other in the conference room.
posted by Sara C. at 3:15 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Given how much of this season has been about reflecting the past, I think it's perfect that the season finale will probably deal with Nixon's election and the fallout from that - given the first season was partly about Sterling Cooper working for the Nixon campaign leading up to the 1960 Kennedy v Nixon election. And, of course, look at the difference eight years made - for Nixon, the world and SC... &P.

Lovely parallels.
posted by crossoverman at 3:22 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

And while she isn't entirely happy about the idea of Sally going to boarding school (what mother would be), she remembers that she wanted to go herself and doesn't want to thwart Sally's goals for herself as her own were thwarted, and so she does her best to help her get accepted.

I read Betty's whole throughline here as being ultimately more of the same and not really any kind of parenting breakthrough.

You've got:

- wanting to live vicariously through Sally.

- having trouble relating to her daughter as an adult to a child rather than as chums.

Not to mention the fact that getting your kid into a school like Miss Porters would be seen as a total coup for someone like Betty Hofstadt-Draper-Francis. For one thing, it would be a status symbol in general. For another thing, Betty has ALWAYS worried about Sally's ability to get by in a world of strict gender norms, and being accepted at Miss Porter's would, in Betty's mind*, be an obvious mark in the SUCCESS column. And what's more, conservative institutions like a New England prep school would have been closed to a child from a "broken home" probably right up until this point. Betty has to worry what her divorce would do to Sally's fate, and acceptance at Miss Porter's would be a big sigh of relief there.

I don't think Betty's positive feelings here are entirely mercenary, but it's really simplistic to read this as some kind of Isn't Betty A Great Mom and not a much more complicated situation.

*Remember Betty wasn't there for the boozy dorm room scenes and doesn't know that she's not sending her daughter into a chaste world of Hall Matrons and tea dances.
posted by Sara C. at 3:25 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

THEY KILLED KENNY.

You know it's funny, someone in the other thread noted that Weiner had said in an interview that Megan wasn't going to die this season. I thought the lede was kinda buried there, as he actually said that NO ONE is going to die this season. I know Weiner can be very misleading, but does he ever outright lie?

It ruined the worst suspense of the Ken shooting, for me (not that the suspense lasted long). Why would Weiner do that?
posted by torticat at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2013

Why would Weiner do that?

Just like the reference to 30 Rock earlier in the season, my immediate thought was that they did that precisely to make a nation of viewers yell "OMG! They killed Kenny! You bastards!" at the TV.
posted by ambrosia at 3:36 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

I hope the "frigid" comment wasn't supposed to point to the latter.

I can't speak to Sally's specific choice not to fool around with Rollo, but the moment is a common trope of the period in second wave feminist/Women's Lib literature. My understanding is that, at least in certain circles, there was no sense that a woman had the right to choose which guy to fool around with or whether she felt like doing it in this particular instance or not. Either you were "liberated" and would go with pretty much any dude, or you were "frigid" which meant there was something psychologically wrong with you.

My guess about Rollo in general was that her idea was to have Glen bring a friend for the two older girls, and that she'd recede into the shadows once they were occupied with dudes and substances. Then the brown haired one peaced out, and she found herself in a situation she didn't anticipate. I think Sally is still young enough that she forgets that she is old enough to be a player in this stuff, and doesn't quite realize that guys might think of her sexually. She expects to play the "little sister" role, and it freaks her out when she can't. Hence why she turned to Glenn when the situation got out of control.

I also was a little freaked out by Sally's smile at Glenn beating up Rollo, and for half a second I expected her to let it get totally out of hand, the scene ending with Glenn beating Rollo's bloody corpse (I mean keep in mind the episode began with Ken Cosgrove getting shot in the face, for chirssakes). I also definitely got shades of Manson out of the whole vibe between Sally and Glenn. We joke about Sally becoming a hippie, and she seems to be enveloping herself in all the trappings of tradition and conservatism, but what if she snaps? A lot of those little Manson girls and other young women who ended up in cults in the 70s were definitely looking for protectors and family.
posted by Sara C. at 3:37 PM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]

We're looking at the life plan that made the protagonist of The Bell Jar want to kill herself.
Derail but that's really simplifying what's going on in the Bell Jar.
posted by sweetkid at 3:44 PM on June 17, 2013

he's not even curious enough to pause and see how she is an as actor or to even just take in more than ten seconds of what his wife spends all her time working on.

Which is an interesting contrast to the way last season ended, with Don watching Megan's screen test and deciding he did want to help her in her career. And, if Matt Weiner is to be trusted, thinking that she was so talented he needed to do anything in his power to bring her brilliance to the public's attention.

Now he can't be bothered to watch 30 seconds of a soap opera she's on, while she is actually on the screen. Like, he changes the channel in the middle of her line, while her face is on camera. That's almost as powerful as the scene in an earlier episode where he mentally mutes her as she's talking about how she wants to take time away to devote to him.
posted by Sara C. at 3:44 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

that's really simplifying what's going on in the Bell Jar.

Wasn't intended to be a sweeping discussion of The Bell Jar. It's just probably the widest known cultural reference to the world Miss Porter's represents. In the 60's it wasn't like it is now, where schools like that are assumed to be The Best In America in some kind of grand meritocracy. It's just a school where Old Money families send their daughters in order to prepare them for lives as Old Money wives.

Again, I think that's something that would be starting to change by Sally's day, but the idea that this is a springboard to important connections for Sally's future career really wouldn't be on anyone's mind in 1968. Betty would be excited because it means easy entry to the right kind of college, and a beeline to the right kind of marriage, without any distracting questions about Sally's background or family situation.
posted by Sara C. at 3:49 PM on June 17, 2013

My guess about Rollo in general was that her idea was to have Glen bring a friend for the two older girls, and that she'd recede into the shadows once they were occupied with dudes and substances. Then the brown haired one peaced out, and she found herself in a situation she didn't anticipate. I think Sally is still young enough that she forgets that she is old enough to be a player in this stuff, and doesn't quite realize that guys might think of her sexually. She expects to play the "little sister" role, and it freaks her out when she can't. Hence why she turned to Glenn when the situation got out of control.

I don't think she put that much thought into it. I bet it was more like, "Oh, shit, I have to find a way to get these girls some booze and cigarettes. Maybe Glen could help?" And then Glen showed up with a friend, because he needed a ride.
posted by donajo at 4:05 PM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

Didn't Don change the channel as she walked in? Like he didn't want to get caught enjoying seeing her on tv and being successful.

THEY KILLED KENNY.

As we started the episode on the DVR last night it took serious willpower to avoid this thread. I didn't want to be spoiled if they had indeed, killed Kenny.
posted by Big_B at 4:07 PM on June 17, 2013

The reason I thought she "put that much thought into it" is that Glen only showed up with one friend. She obviously called him up and set up something for the other two girls and not herself.

Though I don't know if "putting thought into it" is really apt -- I think Sally doesn't consider herself part of the group in something like this. She's still framing it in the same way she'd have thought about mixing her parents a couple of Tom Collins, not like "Ladies, let's go out and find some dudes!"
posted by Sara C. at 4:09 PM on June 17, 2013

Didn't Don change the channel as she walked in? Like he didn't want to get caught enjoying seeing her on tv and being successful.

Don watched a lot of TV this episode. In the afternoon, Don saw Megan on the soap while Megan was out at work on the soap. He flipped around the channels then turned it off when the phone rang- Betty calling to try to talk about Sally.

Later on he was watching TV later, and Megan came in and pointed out there was a TV in the bedroom, he could watch there. But that was late at night.
posted by ambrosia at 4:15 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pardon my misreading of what the school is supposed to do for Sally. My understanding of modern prep culture, much less Sixties prep culture, is limited. I assumed from a couple of cues -- most prominently Betty's proud remark about Sally having the potential to be an ambassador -- that for the ambitious girls, the school was seen as the first step towards upper-class careers as well as upper-class marriages. In retrospect, I suppose that Betty was just talking up Sally (and the harmony of the Francis family: "Henry says...") rather than expressing any particular hopes for how the school might help her daughter's career.

Though I still do feel like Betty has changed over the years and would be legitimately supportive of a career for Sally; otherwise, she wouldn't have admiringly brought up her husband's support of the idea. Her "I wanted it for myself, way back when" at the interview comes close on the heels of "an ambassador someday," so close that I initially assumed that "it" refers to the exciting diplomatic job rather than the place at an elite girls' school. I wouldn't be surprised if both were true once, whether or not Betty consciously knew it at the time.

(As always, my Mad Men opinion is driven by an inherent optimism that's rarely borne out by what happens to these people next week.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 5:23 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't know where this Pete and Bob thing is going, but it's weirdly hot.

He said that based on the idea alone, though, before he knew the full concept. I agree that the sound of "baby aspirin commercial inspired by Rosemary's Baby" sounds pretty batshit disturbing, but the way it was conceived was more a humorous pop-culture wink toward the movie, but with a happy ending. I think most mothers of young children can relate to the frustration of feeling crowded by people pushing their childcare ideas, so holding up St. Joseph's as an empowering ally to "fight back the forces of darkness," even if those are just nagging family and neighbors, sounds like a solid ad idea to me.

I agree. I think the ad is actually pretty good!
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:38 PM on June 17, 2013

Rewatching. Betty's got a package and glass of Carnation Instant Breakfast on the counter as she talks to Don. It is truly the season of RECURRING DRINKS.

(Was it around this time that juice was re-codefied as a health food rather than a treat? Instant Breakfast is certainly a Sixties re-codification of a sweetener as a food, though they throw some nutrients in with the sugar.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 5:41 PM on June 17, 2013

I don't think Betty would specifically not be supportive of a career for Sally, it just wasn't expected of young women in the way that it is today.
posted by Sara C. at 5:41 PM on June 17, 2013

As a producer in advertising I was totally distracted by the fact that it sounded like a lot of people, would take a long time to cast and get approvals and would be a huge budget not to mention that by the time testing was done the cultural reference might be dated so I'll have to watch again to see what I think about if it's a good creative idea or not.

Yes, thank you, more than anything I thought " uuuuh that sounds like a lot of people, and shots, and effort, like commercials typically have a cast of ...two." The Ted and Peggy stuff just seemed like they where so infatuated with thier idea/each other so no one was being the "adult" and Don wants to watch them crash and burn so no one is saying no to anything.
posted by The Whelk at 5:46 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re the ad, I didn't think it was either spectacularly brilliant or awful. It reminded me of a million other ads of that period. I don't think it's going to win anybody any awards, but if I was the client I'd be wondering why I needed to spend more than triple the agreed-on budget for this ad. Ted and Peggy are clearly extremely high on each other in a way that isn't necessarily conducive to the best work the agency can do, let alone good business sense.

Re the Rosemary reference, my guess is that a better take on this idea would be to distill it down more so that it's not really about the movie. There's something there, about the Old Ways vs. the New Ways, groupthink vs. individuality, authority vs. making your own choice. And the thing about young parents not wanting to feel old is spot on. I just don't think it needs to be about a Satanic coven to get the idea across.
posted by Sara C. at 5:47 PM on June 17, 2013

Yes, but remember that, for the Mad Men writers, it's always better to make a choice that involves people screaming at each other in the conference room.

Most definitely. I was just outlining a possible sequence of events for an alternate universe where Don wanted to be helpful vs. what he actually wanted/did this episode.
posted by mikepop at 5:48 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

My God, this week was so good that I forgot about the goddamn delivery of "Kenny, you know, I once had a client cut my wife's breast."
posted by thesmallmachine at 5:55 PM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

I... I think that was "cup."
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:58 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also, Bob's micro-reaction to "Lee Garner, Jr. made me hold his balls" -- he just drops out of the conversation for a contemplative moment.

...shit, is it "cup"? I still hear "cut," and I could imagine Jim saying "cut" or pretty much any other word in the exact same tone, but...I'm relieved to hear that.
posted by thesmallmachine at 6:00 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's definitely cup but I've seen commenters elsewhere that heard "cut" too
posted by sweetkid at 6:01 PM on June 17, 2013

I thought it was "cut" as well, which was rather disturbing, but also didn't seem too out of place coming out of Harry Hamlin's mouth.
posted by palomar at 6:04 PM on June 17, 2013

Bert never managed to offload that Rothko, and everyone's wearing shoes in his office.
posted by thesmallmachine at 6:07 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I noticed everyone wearing shoes too! When did that change?
posted by ambrosia at 6:08 PM on June 17, 2013

The fact that we can very easily buy that he said cut tells us something about his character.
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]

I heard cut, and think it makes more sense, because the next anecdote is also a cupping of an intimate body party. I don't think the writers would have both anecdotes involve bathing-suit-area cupping.
posted by Sara C. at 6:14 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

(Also "cut breast" is so fucking Manson Murders, guys.)
posted by Sara C. at 6:14 PM on June 17, 2013

I don't think the writers would have both anecdotes involve bathing-suit-area cupping.

Why not? It seems like typical Roger one-upmanship to me. So you let someone cup your wife's breast? Big deal...
posted by mikepop at 6:16 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Why not? It seems like typical Roger one-upmanship to me. So you let someone cup your wife's breast? Big deal.

Agreed, makes more sense for it to be cupping because then Roger shares his own cupping.

Also, pretty sure even in the 60s you'd get arrested for cutting someone's breast.
posted by sweetkid at 6:18 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

It was definitely "cup my wife's breast", and it makes total sense to play the word again in the next comment. I am sure Roger never had to cup Lee Garner Jr.'s balls! When it came to Roger, Lee Garner Jr.'s bullying took the form of, "You'll have a Christmas party and play Santa because I say so."
posted by orange swan at 6:19 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, Bob's micro-reaction to "Lee Garner, Jr. made me hold his balls" -- he just drops out of the conversation for a contemplative moment.

Ahaha I went back to watch that moment. He totally startle-laughs and then looks down with a little smile on his face. BOB IS MY NEW FAVORITE
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:31 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

So, thinking about Bib's motivations in light of his revelations, we have a slick, intelligent, multilingual "manservant" who spent time in Europe who has seemingly transformed himself into an ideal version of a WASPy ad men. In his sights, a fussy little out of place wi connections to New York aristocracy who lives apart from his wife in the city. A wife he never talks about. Cause he doesn't seem to have any friends.

To Bob, Pete has a big huge SUGAR DADDY banner dropped over his rounded shoulders, and I'm think Mr. Benson is very good at making sure the people he's interested in are totally at ease.
posted by The Whelk at 6:36 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

I found it interesting that Kartheiser pointed out (in the interview linked above) that Bob's greater physical strength is one reason Pete didn't explode on him when he made the pass, because rewatching the Endless Handshake, it's pretty plainly Bob weaponizing the shake as a show of force, rather than the mutual fight I initially saw.

Why (other than the plot requirement for him to find out Bob's backstory) does Pete call Duck for help finding Bob another placement? I honestly can't think of any reason other than altruism: he recognizes that it would be a dick move to push Bob out for no performance-related reason and not even give him a job lead. It seems kind of extraordinary that Pete would act altruistically towards Bob at this point, when he's feeling intimidated and belittled, but then it's important for Pete to take the moral high ground (and Bob and Pete's relationship is rapidly developing such a complicated power dynamic that a lot of motivations are becoming very blurry).

(With tongue only somewhat in cheek, it's possible that Pete called Duck because this was the only possible context in which Pete could remark that Bob is handsome.)
posted by thesmallmachine at 6:48 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

I can't speak to Sally's specific choice not to fool around with Rollo, but the moment is a common trope of the period in second wave feminist/Women's Lib literature. My understanding is that, at least in certain circles, there was no sense that a woman had the right to choose which guy to fool around with or whether she felt like doing it in this particular instance or not. Either you were "liberated" and would go with pretty much any dude, or you were "frigid" which meant there was something psychologically wrong with you.

I was about the same age in the Mad Men timeline as Bobby, rather than Sally, but I can affirm that this is absolutely true.

You can check the list of prominent alumni from Miss Porter's here. Note Jacqueline Bouvier, and numbers of presidents or Board members of charitable organizations (also a Walker Bush). Tuition is currently about 52K a year.
posted by jokeefe at 6:59 PM on June 17, 2013

Yeah going to Miss Porter means " Hi, we are very rich and very fancy and have been for a while, our daughter may want to be be the head of the Met's donor board or marry someone with a serious chance at becoming President."
posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

( kind of like the current difference between the Upper West and Upper East sides, one is full of people who are the head of Accounts at thier law firm, the other is for people who own the law firm)
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

Yeah, slight derail: I grew up completely ignorant of American East Coast private school culture to the point that a few years ago I was talking with someone who I knew from her bio had gone to Choate, but I pronounced it "Cho-ate" as in "inchoate". She thought it was amusing, but I was not making a joke: I'd just never heard of the place before.
posted by jokeefe at 7:07 PM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re why Pete would call Duck:

So he's just been in this meeting where he tried to get Bob axed from the account and was turned down point blank by every single other person in the room, all of whom outrank him. He probably knows that if he starts crying about how Bob's a queer, that's not going to go over well.

So the idea is to do Bob a "favor" that is really a favor for Pete.
posted by Sara C. at 7:16 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]

I mean, obviously not to knock the place or anything. I'm sure it's not only a great school, but a million times better than the somewhat-elite* boarding school I attended.

*But in a totally different sense of elite. My boarding school was publicly funded, co-ed, and most alums are software engineers or doctors.
posted by Sara C. at 7:22 PM on June 17, 2013

It's you can say Hogwarts.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 PM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]

Hey you guys. I didn't get to watch the show live with you this week, because I was busy adopting a rescue puppy (His name is Dashiell. He's awesome.) I've only just seen it, and haven't read the thread yet. Here are my thoughts.

1) Did someone make a Bob Benson/Tom Ripley joke upthread? Because if it didn't happen, I'd be colossally disappointed in you all.

2) So glad they didn't kill Ken. Absurd what's happened to him in the open of this episode and the amphetamines episode. But it will make for a great short story later.

3) Watched this episode with my Mom, who wanted to see it even though she is only partway through season 2. Her confusion, and her observations about the characters really drove home how strange the changes from 60-68 have been.
posted by .kobayashi. at 8:36 PM on June 17, 2013

I think the best one can really boast is that a lot of former Miss Porter's students hung out with Andy Warhol at one point or another.

Ooh, something to contribute! A good friend of mine graduated from MPS c. 2000 (but she was a sort-of townie and I think only went as a day student?), and my recollections from her anecdotes are that:
1. her best friend had a surname for her first name (oh, come on, you guys)
2. most of her friends were lesbians (or maybe proto-LUGs) and there was plenty o' pot
3. the students were fond of obnoxious chants ("We do as we please 'cause we do as we please...")
4. Tommy Hilfiger's daughter came in for an interview and was blasé about the whole thing, but the T-bag himself was just as overweening as you'd expect.

(My friend is now working for an educational nonprofit in a college town and trying to open a bar, so is maybe not the typical alum.)
posted by psoas at 8:38 PM on June 17, 2013

Going thru that list, i was suprised that Elizabeth May was on it, and she didnt go to like bishop strachan.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:00 PM on June 17, 2013

My understanding is that, at least in certain circles, there was no sense that a woman had the right to choose which guy to fool around with or whether she felt like doing it in this particular instance or not. Either you were "liberated" and would go with pretty much any dude, or you were "frigid" which meant there was something psychologically wrong with you.

My experience has been that this sort of attitude is still very common among men, though the terminology has changed slightly — I've never heard a man call a woman frigid or a tease. I don't know how many conversations I've had with men who wanted casual sex from me, and when I said no, that we were looking for different things, that I wasn't interested in being with someone who was never going to call me again, I got some really condescending bullshit lecture about how I should be okay with that, how there was something wrong with me if I wasn't, that I was too uptight, taking it too seriously, needed to free my mind, etc. Seriously, I've had that essential conversation at least a hundred times. And it makes me so angry that it was really cathartic to watch a fictional guy like that get a beat down for it. There are so many asshole men out there who just can't get it through their heads that they aren't entitled to get action from women and that they need to respect her right to say no. Most of them won't go so far as to use force, of course, but the prevalence of this attitude is why there are still so many rapes.
posted by orange swan at 9:09 PM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]

I kind of think that Don thought he was helping Peggy throughout this. If he's the only one who understands her, he's going to be worried about her shooting herself in the foot with this flagrant office affair. This of course is 1000x sadder since his attemps to "help" are so ham-fisted and alienating.

Also, I am really starting to feel for Megan. Imagine coming home to that day after day.

Finally, I nearly died when the gun made its appearance. To me, it represents the dread that has been mounting on this show since Season 1. And all because of that chip 'n dip.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:21 PM on June 17, 2013

I think that's why I loved Clara's "That's a 22! What are you going to do, shoot squirrels?" comment.

I can totally see Clara secretly being from Pennsyltucky and practicing her perfect upper class elocution every night after work.
posted by Sara C. at 9:25 PM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]

Am I imagining things? Was there a typography magazine called "&"? Was it perhaps called something which included an ampersand and that element was pulled out as the primary logo element?

You're maybe thinking of U&lc (Upper & Lower Case) magazine. A pretty substantial .pdf collection which can be found here. The art director of U&lc until 1981 was Herb Lubalin, one of the co-designers of the typeface Pistilli Roman, which is where the ampersand in the new SC&P logo comes from. Lubalin's typographic style is a pretty solid "late 60's/early 70's" reference point.

It's much better production design than using a House Industries "Rat Fink" font on an ocean spray comp that Peggy was carrying around last week.

These are the things I'm noticing while everyone else is paying to things like plot and character motivation.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:59 PM on June 17, 2013 [9 favorites]

Yeah, I was skimming Wikipedia's list of prominent Miss Porter's alums to see if I could find a moment when it stopped being "There is a wing of the Met named after my husband" types and started being ambitious young Hillary Clinton types. The answer is that this moment does not exist.

I was actually a bit surprised at how... scanty that notable alumni list is. I saw perhaps two or three academics, one which is an assistant professor (not to knock assistant profs of course), a few corporate types, and a couple of owners of small businesses. I'd expected the list to be a little bit more high-powered, considering the family connections and wealth in evidence (and also with what I assume is an excellent education and likely Ivy League admission to follow).

I can see, in the context of the show, how boarding school would make a perfect escape for a girl of Sally's class and complicated family life.
posted by jokeefe at 11:35 PM on June 17, 2013

Also like how this episode had just about everybody in it. (except Henry and the Rosens I think)
posted by iamkimiam at 12:20 AM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]

I wonder if the works of David Algonquin post-1969 start to include a certain proclivity towards scarred, embittered protagonists who were just trying to do their goddamn job.
posted by fight or flight at 2:32 AM on June 18, 2013 [6 favorites]

Peggy's always been Don's "work daughter." Given that he's just lost his relationship with his real daughter, I guess it's no surprise that Peggy's closeness to Ted and distance from Don would be especially grating for him.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:03 AM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]

I feel the need to point out one of Miss Porter's more infamous alums.
posted by The Whelk at 6:17 AM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]

Clara is at least 50% giraffe.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:20 AM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]

This week's GIF's.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:14 AM on June 18, 2013 [3 favorites]

I was actually a bit surprised at how... scanty that notable alumni list is.

Until I read that Vanity Fair article linked upthread, I didn't realize that Pema Chödrön is an alumna.
posted by palomar at 11:31 AM on June 18, 2013

I was sitting there contemplating the fact that Don is drinking ORANGE juice, and then it happened.

THEY KILLED KENNY.
- Sara C.

A couple thoughts here. One, I think that may have actually been grapefruit juice - on my screen, at any rate, it was not orange. And, please note - Tropicana, not Sunkist. Fucking Don and his goddam obstreperousness.

Secondly, the Kenny joke is solid gold, orange harvest sunset gold. Did anyone else notice the next scene is Ken pulling drapes to hide his face behind? Orange drapes? What color is Kenny's hooded coat, which he uses to hide his face? That's right!

You're maybe thinking of U&lc (Upper & Lower Case) magazine. A pretty substantial .pdf collection which can be found here. The art director of U&lc until 1981 was Herb Lubalin, one of the co-designers of the typeface Pistilli Roman, which is where the ampersand in the new SC&P logo comes from. Lubalin's typographic style is a pretty solid "late 60's/early 70's" reference point.

It's much better production design than using a House Industries "Rat Fink" font on an ocean spray comp that Peggy was carrying around last week. - billyfleetwood

That is exactly what I was thinking of and thank you for tracing out that link to Lubalin. I noticed the wrong font use on those Ocean Spray comps too, it was grating. I couldn't even figure out how to complain about it to my wife, which made it more bothersome. Exigencies of battle, I suppose.
posted by mwhybark at 4:47 PM on June 18, 2013

The Whelk: "I feel the need to point out one of Miss Porter's more infamous alums."

My God...it's full of headscarves.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:55 PM on June 18, 2013

Team CranPrune.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:11 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]

You can't spell CRAnpRUnE without CRAnp.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:18 PM on June 18, 2013

That Duke University Libraries Flickr feed has serious Mad Men shoutouts because the feed also has period ads for traveler's checks (perfect for paying hookers) and St. Joseph's Aspirin and shotguns and a handsome turtlenecked fellow with an eye patch and a Smirnoff screwdriver (best use of orange juice) and Nixon/Agnew.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:41 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]

And Partners Make Seven - Brand New on the new SC&P logo
posted by mikepop at 7:01 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]

HEY! Eurostile Extended! That is a freaking Star Trek shoutout!
posted by mwhybark at 8:55 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile in The Cabin In Maine, we've combined Southern Comfort and cranberry juice - A Carpet Bagger.
posted by The Whelk at 2:54 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

Like, he changes the channel in the middle of her line, while her face is on camera. That's almost as powerful as the scene in an earlier episode where he mentally mutes her

Yes, he actually changes it as she says, "I'm talking to you. Don't you dare ignore m--"

Ha. Probably what TLo would call "on the nose," but I think it's funny.

But poor Megan, she is so kind in this episode, with no thanks whatsoever. Dealing with Don's drinking alone, leaving all his other issues aside, could be a relationship-threatening problem. Twice we've seen her react to the liquor on his breath when she's kissed him. That detail is so realistic and so sad.
posted by torticat at 6:51 AM on June 19, 2013

You can't spell CRAnpRUnE without CRAnp.

Seriously, that is some hideous typography. And probably indirectly to blame for the ughness of dELiA's.
posted by psoas at 7:06 AM on June 19, 2013

This week's Mad Style is up.
posted by palomar at 8:52 AM on June 19, 2013

I'm surprised they didn't mention how at odds with the Miss Porter's setting Sally's outfit was. They usually comment when a character's clothes either pull them together with their setting or divide them from it, and despite the sense that Sally will get into Miss Porter's, she certainly isn't tied to the place through her clothes. My prediction is that Sally is getting in over her head, or that this is actually a pretty rash decision that her parents aren't recognizing for personal reasons.
posted by Sara C. at 9:32 AM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]

that this is actually a pretty rash decision that her parents aren't recognizing for personal reasons.

This is my feeling. Although I do think Betty was at least trying to get some information out of her about why she was interested.
posted by sweetkid at 9:55 AM on June 19, 2013

Sally is about the age of my older sister so I am acutely aware of how she dresses, as a little sister is aware of an older sister's wardrobe. Sally dresses like we did, a little behind the times and a bit too young for our ages. We had hand me downs from a cousin who's mother was extremely conservative. The dresses are more like late fifties/early sixties shift dresses.

Betty is still dressing in that same way, everything looks like it just needs some nice pearls to dress it up. Megan in a t-shirt is such a contrast, we can't even imagine Betty in a t-shirt. It will be interesting to see what she wears when the character is showing her own style.
posted by readery at 10:02 AM on June 19, 2013

What Sally will wear, I mean.
posted by readery at 10:07 AM on June 19, 2013

My prediction is that Sally is getting in over her head

Wait, why would you think that? Sally showed herself to be WELL up to the challenges ahead! She got the better of everyone who tried to push her around--the schoolgirls, Rollo, Betty. (Well, not that Betty really tried to push her around, but she did try to get information out of her, and Sally didn't give it up. She shut Betty up rather nicely with that "I know that my education is more important" line.) Plus it's clear she's still got an excellent ally in Glen.
posted by torticat at 10:09 AM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]

Let's play Crazy Finale Prediction Time: Sylvia is pregnant. (She's ultra-Catholic so probably not on the Pill; her son is at least 18, so she figured she was past childbearing age, although she could feasibly be only 37 or 38.)

I spent more time than I care to admit thinking about this last night during an insomniac jag.
posted by purpleclover at 10:24 AM on June 19, 2013

Betty is pregnant and for some reason it is immediately apparent that the baby is not Henry's. This becomes especially difficult as he is in the midst of a political campaign and does not want to be going through a divorce/separation while running for office.

Good times ensue. - this may not happen until next season though.

And I keep thinking something is going to happen to Roger, leaving Don even more adrift. Shot by Pete's gun?
posted by readery at 10:37 AM on June 19, 2013

Something happening to Roger: My worst fear. I'd have to give up Mad Men altogether, Game of Thrones-style.
posted by purpleclover at 10:51 AM on June 19, 2013

torticat - I didn't get the sense that she wasn't up to the level of the other girls or anything, but, well, spending a night at boarding school is a different thing from going to boarding school. Maybe it's my own boarding school experience talking, but that was a LOT of conflict and discord for something that is supposed to feel natural and like where you belong. Boarding school isn't supposed to be a big scary punishment, and the kids who end up there because of that or because their parents thought it was a feather in the family cap or because they're running from something usually don't do well.

I would have a better read of the situation if Sally had at least been wearing the same color palette as the other girls, or had seemed visually at one with her setting, or even if her preppy plaid dress could be seen as "speaking to" the interviewer lady's outfit. She's costumed as being totally at odds with both the interviewer and the other girls, and completely out of place in her setting. Despite wearing a totally normal and even preppy outfit that should have fit in perfectly.

Interestingly, Glenn's plaid shirt has a nice little dialogue with her plaid dress.
posted by Sara C. at 10:52 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

Crazy predictions:

Megan is pregnant*. (I also like "Sylvia is pregnant", and I'll raise you BOTH ARE PREGNANT.)

After all that Detroit craziness, Ken steps off the curb to cross the street and gets hit by a bus. No, better, run down by a Jon Deere while fleeing a mugger in Central Park.

Bert Cooper dies. (Is this too Miss Blankenship, though?)

Bobby takes Betty's diet pills as a joke.

Bob runs into Sal at his friendly neighborhood glory hole.

*That said, my big Megan Pregnant prediction was that she'd get pregnant and then have to deal with the fact that a baby basically means retiring from acting. I don't think we have time for that in one episode unless it's a very Megan-focused one. It's also a little similar to Betty's arc during the Cuban Missile Crisis, AND Joan's situation with Roger. I think the show would be more likely to deal with a Megan pregnancy by having her very pregnant at the beginning of season 7, just in time to freak people out more with the Sharon Tate stuff.
posted by Sara C. at 11:08 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

I feel like we've been building up to some major act of violence. And Wolk has a new job. Maybe Bob gets killed, or gets put away for killing someone.

Or maybe the accidental stabbing was all we're going to get.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:21 AM on June 19, 2013

I feel like we've been building up to some major act of violence. And Wolk has a new job. Maybe Bob gets killed, or gets put away for killing someone.

Granted, it's not like Trudy Campbell was a core character, but Alison Brie managed to hold down a full-time role on Community through the past four years of her appearances on Mad Men. Based on its air-timing (late spring to early summer), I'd imagine the MM shooting schedule picks up right around the time most network shows wrap up.
posted by psoas at 12:23 PM on June 19, 2013

Never mind Alison Brie...Elizabeth Moss played a principle character in a series shot in New Zealand without it interfering with Mad Men's timetable. I'm sure they can squeeze Wolk in. Not that his storyline couldn't very well wind up in the season finale, but his other role wouldn't be the reason why.

Don and Megan have to hit some kind of catharsis. Either she leaves, or he has some sort of breakthrough that allows them to re-connect and move forward. She has to be at the end of her rope. And killing her off just feels like more than Don could realistically recover from.

If we're doing crazy predictions though, I'm going to go with Don and Joan hooking up.
posted by dry white toast at 12:39 PM on June 19, 2013

Alright, regarding deaths, and referring back to my comment/question above, Weiner explicitly said that no one is dying this season. Does he lie outright sometimes? (And if not, why would such a notoriously tight-lipped producer say something like that, especially after all the heavy violence foreshadowing?)

Regarding pregnancies, I don't know, I feel like they've Done That enough times. Peggy, Joan, Betty, Trudy. I realize that IRL pregnancies happen all the freaking time, so it's not like it would be unrealistic; it just seems like narratively they might not go back to that well.

I haven't thought about crazy predictions, but in the non-crazy category, I think we have to find out more about Joan and Avon, and that we'll find out definitively whether Ted & Peggy are having a (physical) affair. (I don't think they were, yet, in the last ep, but that is just a guess. But partly based on how Peggy talked about Ted to Don.)

I am really hoping for more Pete & Bob, but think that storyline could be wrapped up for the season (i.e. not concluded, but set up for next season). I am really not especially hoping for more of Sylvia & Arnie, but there might be another shoe to drop there. Or not. All of that could have been set up to cause the crisis/rift with Sally; it doesn't really need to have further resolution.
posted by torticat at 1:03 PM on June 19, 2013

Yeah, most cable series shoot at a different time of year from most network series. Also, in an ensemble show like Mad Men, even relatively major characters are often booking a day here, a day there in terms of their actual time commitment to work. (For example, Community being an ensemble piece means that Allison Brie might actually go there to film two days a week, if even. She probably books a sporadic day here and there on Mad Men.) That said, if he's the protagonist of his new show, this could be difficult. It could also be difficult if the new show doesn't shoot in Los Angeles.

When I was shooting Admission, which had Paul Rudd as a costar, he was also shooting this new Judd Apatow Seth Rogan end of the world thing that is about to come out. The assistant directors just scheduled around it. It's absolutely not at all rare for actors to be doing multiple projects at the same time.

The real issue is exclusivity, bit clearly Mad Men has shown that it's not a big deal. The question is whether it is for CBS.
posted by Sara C. at 1:04 PM on June 19, 2013

The more I read the crazy/noncrazy predictions the more I feel like I have no idea what's going to happen next episode. I can't come up with anything that I feel like will definitely need to be resolved.
posted by sweetkid at 1:07 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

Based on the promo, it sure looks like Robin Williams is the lead of that show, not Wolk.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:25 PM on June 19, 2013

I feel like the biggest thing hanging over SC&P is their inability to merge (both from a business and personality standpoint). Don has broken his short-lived truce and humiliated Ted just when it looked like they might be able to work together, Peggy is furious with Don and who knows what is going to happen with Pete (and Bob) in Detroit. In the background of all this is Cutler who is presumably still scheming about splitting the company, whatever that may mean exactly (but that clip was referenced again in the preview for next week). I think we're in for a lot of office chaos next episode.
posted by mikepop at 1:26 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

Question: if the merger fell apart, would both agencies lose Chevy, or could one conceivably scoop it from the other and hold on to it?

My bet is if SC&P does collapse, Pete goes with Cutler and Chaough.
posted by dry white toast at 1:31 PM on June 19, 2013

I like TLo's point about the contrast between Joan and Peggy re office affairs: Joan carrying one on for years without letting on, and Peggy (who may not have even actually consumated anything with Ted yet) carrying on for the whole office to see.
posted by dry white toast at 1:33 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

The season opened with Don reading Dante's Inferno, handily loaned to him by his mistress. Since the innermost circle of Hell according to Alighieri is reserved for betrayal, it would fit thematically to have the season culminate in the reveal of Don and Sylvia's affair (beyond Sally, possibly by her blurting it out, or in some other way). That was a betrayal of both his wife and, possibly, only friend. His refusal to really be a team player can see as a betrayal of his partners, employees, and the firm; Peggy already sees him as having betrayed her trust in every way, to the point of calling him a monster.
posted by Superplin at 1:34 PM on June 19, 2013 [3 favorites]

If Don is Dante, who is Satan?

If Don is Satan, who is Dante?

Actually I think Don = Satan works better, because the central conflict at this point is Don being trapped, and the harder he tries to escape the more trapped he becomes. The three faces thing is interesting. If Dick is one, and Don is another, what's the third face?

There's also this nice quote from Wikipedia via Lawrence S. Cunningham:

“the deepest isolation is to suffer separation from the source of all light and life and warmth.”
posted by Sara C. at 2:10 PM on June 19, 2013

I don't actually see Don as either Dante (a tourist through the netherworld, but not of it), nor as Satan (ruling overlord of hell, fallen angel). I see him as one of the condemned.
posted by Superplin at 2:14 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]

In The Divine Comedy, Satan is one of the condemned.
posted by Sara C. at 4:01 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh what have I done.
posted by The Whelk at 6:01 PM on June 19, 2013 [6 favorites]

I love it, Whelk! This is canon to me now.
posted by thesmallmachine at 6:31 PM on June 19, 2013

Sara C.: "In The Divine Comedy, Satan is one of the condemned."

Ah, you're absolutely right. That's what I get for not refreshing my memory. It's been a long time since I last read it. Don't know how I managed to retain that horrifying final image but forget that it was Satan's punishment. Still, I don't know that Don is so much a gnawer as a gnawee.
posted by Superplin at 7:07 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wow, I was in the middle of reading this Grantland review of season six, which says:

Weiner cut his teeth working on The Sopranos, and I can't help but detect a whiff of David Chase in this season's depressing spiral. The Sopranos boss was famously furious with the way his audience seemed to love his main character more in equal proportion to all the terrible things he did. Weiner seems to have pushed Don to a similar extreme this year

...and thinking of this comment I made several weeks ago arguing kind of the opposite (re Weiner), when I heard James Gandolfini had died. I am so sad and shocked. Whatever Chase's objectives were, we sure did love Tony Soprano. And Gandolfini was just a great guy.
posted by torticat at 7:08 PM on June 19, 2013

Fuck, Whelk, you can write.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:50 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]

That is why we call him Mr. The_Whelk. That and the unsettling time travel anecdotes. And the drinking.
posted by mwhybark at 10:08 PM on June 19, 2013

(from your lips to agents' ears pinkmoose)

(look for Straw House, coming to a bookstore near you in 2014 ...ish )
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 AM on June 20, 2013

hey guys look at this awesome tumblr. It's Mad Men with stuff written on it.
posted by sweetkid at 12:33 PM on June 20, 2013 [2 favorites]

this might be my favorite
posted by sweetkid at 12:36 PM on June 20, 2013 [2 favorites]

I just figured it out:
Don is Lucille
~~Peggy~~ Pete is Michael
Ginsberg is Buster
Ted Chaough is Lucille 2
Bob Benson is Maebe

Ted - juice obsession
Ken - injury/pirate costume
Don - A MONSTER!!!

It's a Buster off!
posted by Sys Rq at 12:53 PM on June 20, 2013 [3 favorites]

(And yes, Bob is totally the Maeby.)
posted by Sys Rq at 12:54 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

" okay now I'm just lying for no reason."

Also, from the linked blog

Ugh. happiness.
posted by The Whelk at 1:03 PM on June 20, 2013

Apropos of the macro at the top of that tumblr --

Crazy Death Prediction: Ginsberg.
posted by Sara C. at 1:18 PM on June 20, 2013

Not gonna lie, if the last season isn't just a parade of increasingly insane death scenes I'm gonna be kinda let down.
posted by The Whelk at 1:23 PM on June 20, 2013 [3 favorites]

Crazy Death Prediction: Ginsberg.

No why.

But if we're just wishing I wish Sylvia. Sorry Sylvia.
posted by sweetkid at 1:24 PM on June 20, 2013

Oh no I don't wish Ginsberg dead. In fact, he's probably the background character I want to know the most about.

I just feel like we've seen him steadily in a worse and worse place, emotionally, throughout the season. And we've been left with questions: "what's up with Ginsberg? is he schizophrenic or something?"

That said, I don't think he'd kill himself, since obviously the show has done that before, and recently. But he seems deeply not OK. And I think that the last episode of the season might deal with that. And it wouldn't surprise me if they dealt with it in a really surprising and catastrophic way.

That said, I don't know how we get from mentally ill to dead without going back to the suicide well.
posted by Sara C. at 1:32 PM on June 20, 2013

yea I don't think that's where the Ginsberg story is going. I also don't think he's schizophrenic. He was fine last episode right? Did I miss something?
posted by sweetkid at 1:35 PM on June 20, 2013

Was he even in this past episode?
posted by Sys Rq at 1:36 PM on June 20, 2013

I don't necessarily think Ginsberg is schizophrenic. But there's obviously something up, and the fact that we're seeing it, and both episodes that have had Ginsberg subplots have been about that, implies to me that this is a Thing.

That said, I don't think Ginsberg is actually going to die. I just threw it out there as an off the wall prediction.
posted by Sara C. at 1:37 PM on June 20, 2013

Was he even in this past episode?

Yes, in the CranPrune part.

But you know who wasn't?

Stan.
posted by Sara C. at 1:37 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

Off-the-wall prediction: Roger leaves SC&P to take up residence at Esalen.
posted by ambrosia at 1:47 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob swinging an axe into Pete's head " Try to get a table at the 21 Club now!"
posted by The Whelk at 1:51 PM on June 20, 2013 [2 favorites]

First 5 minutes of first episode of final season: Don Draper is murdered. Cut to three months earlier, begin rest of season as we wind down to that final moment. Throughout the rest of the season, Don will periodically fantasize about and dream about his death. We wonder as the season progresses if we will even be able to tell whether the murder was real.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:04 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

I keep returning to the first few minutes of this season, which were edited to make the viewer think Don Draper is dying.
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 PM on June 20, 2013 [6 favorites]

I keep kinda daydreaming about the last episode including a montage showing the general direction the characters are heading (Betty at some kind of political rally, helping Henry campaign; Sally dressing up as David Bowie; Peggy attending the founding meeting of Ms. magazine; Pete doing... something Pete-ish; Roger signing up for some kind of proto-Est seminar; Don drinking in an empty apartment; Megan on a plane heading to Europe, newly signed divorce papers in hand, etcetera). Then a smash cut to Florida, 1999, where a 76 year old Don is living with the fifth Mrs. Draper and a round the clock oxygen feed. Joan comes to visit and we get to find out what happened to all the characters ("Remember Ken?" "Yeah, I saw the obit in The Atlantic. Imagine, a lawnmower accident-- must have been fate.") Joan sneaks a slug of vodka into his orange juice, and they reminisce. There's a slow pan over family photographs-- Sally with kids, Sally's graduation from law school, and so on. Closure! We learn what happens to everyone! And then Don dies. The end.
posted by jokeefe at 6:59 PM on June 20, 2013 [2 favorites]

I kind of don't want to know what happens to everyone. I just want to imagine stuff. I didn't like that bit of Six Feet Under.
posted by sweetkid at 7:10 PM on June 20, 2013

I kind of don't want to know what happens to everyone. I just want to imagine stuff. I didn't like that bit of Six Feet Under.

I LOVED that bit of Six Feet Under. If any show gets to do what it did, it's a show called SIX FEET UNDER. That said, I never want to watch that sequence again. I sob so much I can't see the screen.
posted by crossoverman at 7:19 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

uh, yeah sure it "gets" to, but I wasn't a fan of it. The montage, I mean not the show
posted by sweetkid at 7:24 PM on June 20, 2013

The only thing I didn't like about the ending of SFU was that most people got gauzy happy endings or such, if it was me I'd have more random run over by trucks at young ages. More in line with the spirit of the show.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's true. The black guy gets murdered. And everyone else lives into their old age.
posted by crossoverman at 8:14 PM on June 20, 2013

I kept expecting Nate's kid, of whom much has been made, to like die of something totally stupid and random at like 13 . Bleh.

In my Mad Men montage, Sally becomes Donna Tartt. Look inside yourself you know this is true.
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on June 20, 2013 [4 favorites]

Another random thought I had this morning for the finale is that Cutler puts some sort of plan into play but it backfires and he ends up out of the agency. Unfortunately whatever happens I may not get to watch until Monday night!
posted by mikepop at 6:42 AM on June 21, 2013

Unfortunately whatever happens I may not get to watch until Monday night!

Count yourself lucky. I'm leaving the country and won't be able to watch it until like the 30th. It's kind of killing me.
posted by COBRA! at 7:13 AM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

Cutler puts some sort of plan into play but it backfires and he ends up out of the agency.

His head can bear the blinding majesty of his hairdo or the weight of his magnificent spectacles no longer, and implodes in a bloody shower that defiles Roger's all-white office in crimson rivers of gore.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:16 AM on June 21, 2013 [2 favorites]

In my Mad Men montage, Sally becomes Donna Tartt. Look inside yourself you know this is true.

You're obsessed with this Donna Tartt thing it's madness madness I say
posted by sweetkid at 7:16 AM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure Sally would write The Secret History, but I'm not sure anyone else could have written The Little Friend. I mean, we're tracking down Carla next season, right?
posted by purpleclover at 7:22 AM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's more plausible then Sally Draper, Demon Hunter.
posted by The Whelk at 7:25 AM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

Mad Men Soup: 15 Groovy Words From Season 6 (from the wordnik blog)
posted by iamkimiam at 7:39 AM on June 21, 2013 [2 favorites]

The Nerdist has a chat with Weiner all about season five up as well.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 AM on June 21, 2013

Ooooooh, thanks! Just found it. Here's the link: Nerdist Writer's Panel Mad Men S5 in Review

posted by iamkimiam at 7:45 AM on June 21, 2013

And perfect timing, as the Mad Men Happy Hour Podcast has really been disappointing and problematic for me lately and I gotta get some weekly audio Mad men analysis somehow or I'll just never be motivated to get on my bike and go anywhere at all.
posted by iamkimiam at 7:49 AM on June 21, 2013

Speaking of Trek.
posted by mwhybark at 9:25 AM on June 21, 2013 [2 favorites]

And everyone yells at him! Ken, Jim, Pete … did you ever feel like the resident punching bag?
It’s funny. There are so many pressures on these guys. You see them dealing with so much. And then Bob comes in smiling ear to ear. He’s an easy target, quite frankly. But he’s confident in himself. That’s something the producers told me: “You don’t become bashful about your own sense of self. He has real confidence.” Even though there’s an affable quality to him, there’s also a confidence, a steely resolve to take those punches and roll with them, which I loved.

-- Vulture interview with James Wolk.
posted by rewil at 12:30 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's true. The black guy gets murdered. And everyone else lives into their old age.

Not everyone. Let's remember there had already been three deaths in the Fisher family in the previous five years. Lisa, who was, you know, white, was murdered as well, at a much younger age than Keith, who was 59 when he got shot. Nate died of a stroke at 40. Nathaniel Fisher Sr. was hit by a bus at 57. It just wouldn't be realistic to have too many people from one family die tragic deaths.
posted by orange swan at 2:27 PM on June 21, 2013

But it would have been entertaining
posted by The Whelk at 2:31 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'll give you that.
posted by orange swan at 2:36 PM on June 21, 2013

Mad Men Soup: 15 Groovy Words From Season 6 (from the wordnik blog)

Wendy [to Don]: “Do you want to get it on?”

“The Crash,” May 19, 2013

Anachronism alert! While this episode takes place in 1967, the term get it on, or to have sex, didn’t come about until 1971, according to the OED, appearing in B.B. Johnson’s Blues for a Black Sister: “She gripped him with her legs and they got it on.” But if anyone can antedate this term, please let us know in the comments.

Hmm. There must be an earlier example, but I'll be darned if I can think of one. "Bang a Gong (Get it On)" was also 1971, as was Chase's "Get it On"; "Let's Get it On" was 1973.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:22 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I got stuck in traffic so I had time to think about this.

Sally Draper: Demon Hunter.

INT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT

We open on a pitch-perfect 70s suburban house, shag carpet, wood
paneling, orange accents, the whole Brady Bunch deal. We take in the
scene and move to an adorable moppet in pig-tails sitting at the
kitchen table and being served dinner by a doting mother. The kid,
about ten or so, is juice-commercial perfect and beaming while the
mother looks pale and harried. Mom puts the plate down in front of the
kid.

GIRL:

MAY I HAVE SOME MILK PLEASE MOMMY?

Mom nods and walks behind the kid to the fridge. She slowly and
quietly takes a butcher knife out of the drawer while the kid sits
smiling, looking off into the distance. We follow a close shot of the
Mom creeping up on the kid, knife in hand.

Just as Mom is directly behind the kid, butcher knife beginning to
rise, the door to the house busts in, revealing a now 20-something
SALLY DRAPER banishing a very large and ancient looking crossbow and
wearing huge welder's gloves.

SALLY:

GET AWAY FROM HER.

There's a half a beat of confusion before Sally launches a crossbow
bolt into the kid's chest. The kid screams and drops to floor before
lifting her head up and revealing her large, inhumane fangs and
blood-red eyes. The kid-monster wails like a banshee and crouches into
a leap just as FRANK and VALERIE charge into the room. Sally shoots
another bolt into Kid-Monster, causing it to leap across the room
toward Sally but Kid-monster drops like a stone when VALERIE (short
hair, big glasses, long sweater) starts reading aloud from a worn
paperback in her hand.

VALERIE:

(Spooky sounding Latin chants)

Kid Monster writhes in pain on the floor, its features less and less
childlike. Mom is still standing in the kitchen, having backed herself
against the wall, still holding the knife. SALLY turns to FRANK (White
polo shirt, blonde, jockish, medical bag over his shoulder).

SALLY:

GARLIC!

FRANK digs in his bag and throws a garlic bulb to SALLY who takes in
her hands and shoves into the fanged Kid-Monster mouth. VALERIE
continues to chant while Kid-Monster goes into a full frothing
seizure.

SALLY:
(to Fred, pointing at the Mom)

CHECK ON HER.

(To VALERIE)

CAN WE PICK UP THE PACE A LITTLE VAL?

VALERIE:
(Stops chanting)

IF WE PICKED HER UP ON HER WAY HOME FROM SCHOOL LIKE I SUGGESTED-

SALLY:

I HAD TO BE SURE. HOW'S SHE LOOK FRANK?

FRANK is walking slowly toward the obviously in shock Mom, hands up,
palms out, all smiles.

FRANK:

MRS. WILLARD? BABARA WILLARD? HELLO, MY NAME IS FRED HANCOCK AND THESE
ARE MY FRIENDS SALLY AND VALERIE, AND WE'RE HERE TO HELP YOU. I KNOW
THIS IS CRAZY AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF EMOTIONS YOU'RE DEALING WITH NOW
AND THAT'S COOL YOU'RE ALLOWED TO JUST FEEL WHATEVER YOU WANT TO FEEL,
IT'S OKAY BUT I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ASK THAT YOU TRUST ME SO WE CAN GET
YOUR DAUGHTER THE HELP SHE NEEDS-OKAY? SO MAYBE WE COULD PUT THE KNIFE
DOWN A LITTLE AND TALK A BIT MORE ABOUT OUR-

FRANK keeps talking until Mrs. Willard has lowered her knife and he'd
gotten close to enough to blow a handful of red powder in her face.
She drops to the ground in a swoon and FRANK checks her neck, finding
two large bite-marks.

SALLY:

HAS SHE TURNED?

FRANK:

NOT YET. LOOKS LIKE MOM WAS JUST A MEAL TICKET FOR NOW.

SALLY:

WHAT IS TAKING SO LONG VAL?

VALARIE:

MAYBE IF I WASN'T BEING INTERRUPTED EVERY FIVE MINUTES - DEMON'S IN
TOO DEEP I CAN'T GET IT OUT WITHOUT RISKING BRAIN DAMAGE.

SALLY:

FINE.

SALLY grabs her crossbow and shoots Kid-Monster dead in the heart.
Kid-Monster yelps and goes limp. Blood begins to pour onto the
deep-pile shag carpet. Sally turns to walk about. FRANK points to the
sleeping Mrs. Willard.

FRANK:

WHAT ABOUT HER?

SALLY:

NOT OUR JOB.

FRANK begins to say something but VALARIE stops him.

VALARIE:

DON'T. YOU'RE NEW, YOU DON'T KNOW.

FRANK:

KNOW WHAT?

VALARIE:

SALLY AND BLOODSUCKERS. SHE'S GOT A THING ABOUT THEM. HAD TO PUT HER
OWN MOTHER DOWN DURING HER SENIOR PROM. HOW SHE GOT INTO THE BUSINESS.

FRANK:

SHE BLED HER OWN MOM?

VALARIE:

YEP. THEY NEVER SEEM TO FIGURE OUT THAT 'YOUTH AND BEAUTY FOREVER"
THING COMES WITH STRINGS ATTACHED. C'MON, LET'S GET A SNACK, I'M
STARVING.

And then Sally meets the last member of their gang, Glen Bishop, who
is now a huge stoner with a dog who drives them around from mystery to
mystery.

In a van.
posted by The Whelk at 4:26 PM on June 21, 2013 [10 favorites]

You horrible, beautiful man. For the record, I KNEW YOU WHEN.

on the internet
posted by mwhybark at 4:38 PM on June 21, 2013

The Whelk, I think your "Sally Draper, Demon Hunter" script needs a catchphrase indicating how deeply the dominant culture remains in denial about the soul-draining demonic possessions that pervade our nation, something to show that our heroes operate unthanked in silence, some phrase that shows the weight of silence and sorrow that Sally and her crew carry with them all their days and nights.

Something like, I dunno, "This never happened."
posted by Elsa at 5:02 PM on June 21, 2013 [9 favorites]

I fully agree Elsa, and of course the cover business they use to hide in plain sight is a simple generic business....

PIZZA HOUSE.
posted by The Whelk at 5:23 PM on June 21, 2013 [6 favorites]

Scooby had better appear in his Venture Bros. incarnation.
posted by invitapriore at 6:01 PM on June 21, 2013

Harry Crane is some kind of litch, the team of Peggy " The Impaler" Olson and Stan " Smoke Bomb" Rizzo taught Sally everythi she knows, the big bad is obviously Peggy and Pete's kid who is an Antichrist/Damien type, and Ginsberg is a hermit who was cursed with visions in a deal with the devil ( who was wearing Don's dead body )

Ken supports the whole demon hunting enterprise via the best selling book series he writes based on Sally and Co's adventures.
posted by The Whelk at 6:05 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yes I've been shot gunning a lot of Supernatural episodes lately why do you ask?
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re "get it on" (and possibly other anachronisms) -- I guess you can argue that Megan wouldn't have been using such an expression, or that Don would have rolled his eyes at such slangy nonsense, but I think it's generally accepted as a truism that a word's first appearance in print isn't the same thing as its appearance in the language.

That said, there are a ton more period correct and super awesome/weird/dated expressions for sex that might have been a better choice. I'm honestly shocked that the expression "ball" hasn't been used on the show so far. I remember reading it plenty in Second Wave Feminist and other New Left literature from this period, so if it's not in common use in 1968, it's very close.
posted by Sara C. at 6:11 PM on June 21, 2013 [2 favorites]

Re "get it on" (and possibly other anachronisms) -- I guess you can argue that Megan wouldn't have been using such an expression, or that Don would have rolled his eyes at such slangy nonsense, but I think it's generally accepted as a truism that a word's first appearance in print isn't the same thing as its appearance in the language.

Yeah, I absolutely agree that it was almost certainly in use in 1967-8, especially among with-it New Yorkers. Four years isn't such a long time. But it's weird that there's no written evidence, considering how much was written in the common vernacular in those days.

And, yes, "ball" one word I see a lot in authentic 1960s contexts and have absolutely no "Aw, I wish people still talked like that" nostalgia for.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:00 PM on June 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I remember " ball" coming back for like five seconds in partytimer Brooklynite circles in like 06' , just long enough for me to go "ew that is an awful word."
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on June 21, 2013

The Whelk: "Ken supports the whole demon hunting enterprise via the best selling book series he writes based on Sally and Co's adventures."

Is it called Sally, Slayer of the Daemons (pronounced de-MONS)?
posted by Superplin at 6:52 AM on June 22, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yes, with hilarious pastel painted covers.
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 AM on June 22, 2013

As Grover Banes. Or maybe Kate Cotswolds.
posted by mwhybark at 9:38 AM on June 22, 2013

invitapriore: "Scooby had better appear in his Venture Bros. incarnation."

So this is why Ted keeps saying "Groovy"!
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:58 AM on June 22, 2013 [1 favorite]

Is this still the chosen thread for post-finale action later tonight?
posted by Rhomboid at 9:22 AM on June 23, 2013

Yes
posted by sweetkid at 9:31 AM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm on a delay because I am In The Woods so I may have to check in with y'all tomorrow.

Unless of course something awesome happens then just send up a flare and I'll get in my hovercraft.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

(although finales on this show are usually contemplative yes? The pants on head crazy usually occuring in the middle of the run?)
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Is there not already a Whelk-symbol searchlight mounted on a choice rooftop somewhere in Manhattan? I have to admit I'm a little disappointed.
posted by invitapriore at 9:39 AM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

So I follow the stanlovespeggy tumblr now, as one does, and earlier today they reblogged this breakdown of Stan and Peggy's relationship that was interesting enough but really, just scroll down to see Ted and Stan juxtaposed. I would like to see this explored in full-on Mad Style fashion plz.
posted by rewil at 9:43 AM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm on a delay because I am In The Woods so I may have to check in with y'all tomorrow.

I'll also be on delay tonight; The Fella's working 'til midnight and I'll be waiting to watch with him. I'm hoping we'll get to it tonight, or I'll be covering my ears a lot at tomorrow's meet-up.
posted by Elsa at 11:08 AM on June 23, 2013

I'm on my usual Amazon-related delay, but I'm working from home tomorrow so WOO 9AM MAD MEN VIEWING! I'll probably be blowing up this thread around 10AM, pacific time.
posted by Sara C. at 11:23 AM on June 23, 2013

Esquire: How the finale might go.
posted by The Whelk at 11:36 AM on June 23, 2013

I'm on my usual Amazon-related delay

I know what you mean but this makes it sound like you'll be hanging out with parrots and swinging from trees or something

WOO 9AM MAD MEN VIEWING!

Oh good because there is like a hole in my soul until I know you've seen it and what you think (this is only slightly hyperbolic)

I have a date tonight but gave him reasons I need to be home by 10. I didn't include Mad Men, too early for that.
posted by sweetkid at 11:40 AM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

sweetkid, if you're late tonight or on a delay, I'm throwing out my TV and deleting the internet.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 1:28 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'M SCARED, YOU GUYS.

(And I'll probably wait an hour to watch it on DVR so I don't have to wait through commercials.)
posted by mynameisluka at 1:36 PM on June 23, 2013

I'm pretty sure my 24 hour gym with the TV treadmills is in collusion with AMC, because wouldn't you know it that Sunday evening is the only time they're not open during the nine o'clock hour.
posted by invitapriore at 1:45 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

I AM NOT READY FOR THIS TO END (for the year)!

And now I'm contemplating how I'm going to feel next year.

Oh god.
posted by crossoverman at 2:13 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

One of the nice things about being on the West Coast is knowing that by the time I get home tonight after visiting with my mother, the finale will already have been uploaded by the friendly folks at [redacted].

I buy the DVDs when they are released. I don't own a TV.
posted by jokeefe at 2:47 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

I wish there were a way to watch Mad Men with The Whelk comments popping up at the appropriate time.
posted by drezdn at 3:55 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

Alternate universe DVD commentary track.

( I have seriously thought about doing VoiceOver for one episode in the style of Wizard People Dear Reader)
posted by The Whelk at 4:06 PM on June 23, 2013

Get on it, VH1!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:07 PM on June 23, 2013

Mystery Mad Men Theater 1960......
posted by The Whelk at 4:15 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

Let's play Crazy Finale Prediction Time:

OKAY! My major Outlandish Prediction isn't necessarily finale-specific; if Bob Benson sticks around, even off-screen, this could happen next year.

Since Bob Benson's first few appearances, I've been thinking that his well-meaning/self-serving assistance and errand-running is going to have dire consequences for Don. Specifically, I think that Don's hidden identity is going to be made suddenly more precarious by some small, favor-currying, and previously unseen (by us and by Don) act of Bob Benson's.

I can't put my finger on what initially drove this suspicion, but since "Favors," I'm doubly convinced. We know that Bob is always trying to do (what he thinks are) favors for his superiors, quietly learning what he can about them and trying to provide desired services, whether that's providing a cup of good coffee or sending a deli delivery to a memorial service or finding a trained nurse to charm the heck out of an aging patient. However benignly Bob Benson may intend it, this kind of well-intended interference isn't always welcome. As Pete bursts out when confronting Bob about Manolo: "In fact, I never told you anything! You were just doing some digging!"

I see Julie, Sally's sleepover frenemy, as a stand-in for Bob Benson in Sally's life: she comes out of nowhere as far as we're concerned, she performs little helpful tasks for Megan (taking out the trash, serving more lasagne) while displaying flattering attention and apparent respect. And I think that just as Julie's (not entirely benign) interference in Sally's life led to a terrible discovery and a great breaching of secrets, Bob's interference is going to lead to a terrible discovery and an unleashing of Don's secrets.

If you're persuaded by wardrobe analysis, note that the bright green and white dress Julie wears when she delivers the note (off-screen, but she's wearing the dress immediately before and after) echoes the colors Bob Benson wears (bright green shirt, white print shorts) in the scene at Joan's apartment when he learns about Pete's mother.

If you scroll down the T&L style analysis for "Favors" (their photos don't seem to be linkable, sorry), you can see that Dawn also wears the same color green, which makes me wonder if Bob managed to hound Dawn into handing over that lighter that she so confidently said she'd return to its rightful owner, thus involving her, however unwittingly, in this mess that I believe he's making for Don. Or maybe Janie Bryant is just making the most of a then-popular color.

This has been Elsa's Outlandish Prediction Corner. Thank you for joining me, and I look forward to all of your Outlandish Predictions.
posted by Elsa at 4:45 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wait, do the predictions have to be outlandish? I'm gonna try more of a newspaper-horoscope approach, where a broad enough aim will mean that, unless the whole episode's a dream sequence where Don's a traveling salesman named Kevin Finnerty, something's bound to hit. Here goes:

Something unexpected happens in Don's building!

A new development makes an SC&P employee reconsider their place in the firm!

When somebody learns a secret, there are shocking repurcussions!

A surprising event prompts questions that won't be answered until next season!
posted by box at 5:28 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

box, add in a "WHAT?" and that's every "Next time, on Mad Men" teaser.
posted by Elsa at 5:34 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

In retrospect I think the Peggy-fearfully-attempting-to-escape-her-apartment clip in the Next Time On was just a master stroke of audience trolling, especially given all the foreboding death and violence vibes this season. And then it was a mouse.
posted by invitapriore at 6:12 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Can you sense my disappointment at not being able to read The Whelk's commentary 24 hours prior to being able to watch the show?
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:57 PM on June 23, 2013

Directed by Matthew Weiner!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:02 PM on June 23, 2013

Can someone explain my irrational hatred for Roger's daughter?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:03 PM on June 23, 2013

That's not irrational hatred.
posted by palomar at 7:03 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

I need that mug.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:04 PM on June 23, 2013

Here is a litre of vodka for Kevin.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:04 PM on June 23, 2013

By which I mean, Roger's daughter has always seemed rather spoiled and bitchy to me.
posted by palomar at 7:05 PM on June 23, 2013

Oh God why does Megan look like a character from Bewitched all of the sudden?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:05 PM on June 23, 2013

Sorry, Don has a 10am BURN.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:09 PM on June 23, 2013

That sound you heard was the sound of Peggy's ovaries weeping.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:11 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Wow, Pete loses one parent on a plane and another on a boat?!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:11 PM on June 23, 2013

"Lost at sea" - metaphor, much?
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:12 PM on June 23, 2013

So, Pete's parents should just have avoided taking trips.
posted by rewil at 7:12 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Manolo would have pushed her and ran off with her jewelry.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:12 PM on June 23, 2013

I don't know. If Roger Sterling was my father, I'd want to be paid for hassle.

Wow, Pete loses one parent on a plane and another on a boat?!

"To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."
posted by gladly at 7:13 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

That's why Pete never ever wants to leave New York City.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:13 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Score one point for Esquire and its predictions.
posted by rewil at 7:15 PM on June 23, 2013

Guess we know what next season's about.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:17 PM on June 23, 2013

OMG he's stealing Stan's idea. Asshole.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:17 PM on June 23, 2013

Yes, but our dreams of Steggy live on....
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on June 23, 2013

Of course, his warning to Stan remains: if it crashes and burns no one will want to work with him again. I'm sensing an unhappy ending for the show.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:19 PM on June 23, 2013

You eat that sandwich, Stan.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:20 PM on June 23, 2013

11:00 a.m. BURN brought to you by STAN who is made of balls.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:20 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

"NOT GREAT, BOB!" might be my favorite line of Pete's ever.
posted by gladly at 7:21 PM on June 23, 2013 [10 favorites]

I am so going to miss this show.
posted by rewil at 7:21 PM on June 23, 2013

WHY IS PEGGY DRESSED LIKE A HOOKER?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:22 PM on June 23, 2013

Oh boy oh boy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:23 PM on June 23, 2013

Payback's a bitch.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:24 PM on June 23, 2013

The winner so far is Sally, by a mile.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:25 PM on June 23, 2013

So Pete's inability to drive stick is a metaphor, right?
posted by kickingthecrap at 7:25 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

This is why you pay attention in driver's ed.
posted by rewil at 7:25 PM on June 23, 2013

The Campbells should just be kept away from transportation in general.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:26 PM on June 23, 2013 [9 favorites]

@Dr. Zira: I assume so Ted can gag on her eleganza.
posted by kickingthecrap at 7:27 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pete and Bob are totally heading either towards a hate fuck or murder.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:27 PM on June 23, 2013

I hate it when I feel sorry for Pete.
posted by donajo at 7:27 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

This comeuppance brought to you by BURN Benson.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:27 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Teggy!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:30 PM on June 23, 2013

Is it possible for Ted Chaugh to be less sexy?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Ted is gross. Also, poor Bets.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:31 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Black turtlenecks are mysterious. Blue turtlenecks are for TeeVee game show hosts.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:32 PM on June 23, 2013

Please stop this relationship is an abomination.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:33 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

More like, "Oh sweetheart, you're working Peggy too hard..."
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:34 PM on June 23, 2013

Ted's cheating is almost more depressing than Don's cheating. Almost.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:34 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think it's worse because Ted's supposed to be better than this.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:36 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

I actually fell for it, and believed he was serious about leaving his wife, until he got home, got in bed with her, and held her in the exact same way he'd held Peggy. Ugh.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:38 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, it's pretty transparently bullshit. What Ted cares about is owning things other people can't--I don't know how much he actually cares about the things themselves.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:40 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

Now everyone wants the juice.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:40 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

So Sally just has to hang in the infirmary until Don gets around to picking her up?
posted by donajo at 7:41 PM on June 23, 2013

She does have beer.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:41 PM on June 23, 2013

God fighting over this measly scrap of hope like it matters. Buncha assholes. This episode has reached maximum asshole.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:42 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Clearly, Don's a Cadbury's man.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Most. Awkward. Pitch Meeting. EVAR.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

Hoooooly crap.
posted by rewil at 7:46 PM on June 23, 2013

BUH! Jesus, Don!
posted by ob1quixote at 7:47 PM on June 23, 2013

Good man, Don. For once. Is he going to off himself? What's haaaappening.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:48 PM on June 23, 2013

What the I don't even
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:48 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm a sucker, but I really hope this tide of honesty is carrying him to go get Sally.
posted by gladly at 7:48 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Me too! My heart wants him to quit, go get Sally, talk it out with Megan, and, you know, become someone he's not.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:49 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Inexplicably, Ted wants to move to a whorehouse.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

You realize we're all going to have to come back to this thread once The Whelk, sweetkid, and Sara C. get in on this... Because, seriously. Holy shit. And there's still not-quite-ten minutes to go!
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:52 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don's plot is feeling kind of done. I am worried.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:53 PM on June 23, 2013

Don't call me Shirley.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:53 PM on June 23, 2013

Gah now we have to watch Peggy's heart break.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:55 PM on June 23, 2013

Word, peggy. Word.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:56 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

You have decisions, Peggy it's called STAN.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

Sorry, Teddy, you were a speedbump on the road to Steggy.
posted by gladly at 7:56 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

See ya, Megan.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:57 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

He knew this was the way out of the marriage.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 7:57 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Megan is smelling all the coffee smells.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wait. I'm ok with Ted moving out to California but I don't want any reduced facetime for Pete.
posted by rewil at 8:00 PM on June 23, 2013

See ya, Don.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:00 PM on June 23, 2013

OH MY GOD
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:00 PM on June 23, 2013

OMFG PANTSUIT.
posted by kickingthecrap at 8:03 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

PANTS! At work!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:03 PM on June 23, 2013

Peggy's pantsuit is how I feel right now.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

HOLY SHIT HONESTY. This show, you guys.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:04 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

Better yet, Joan's queer family thanksgiving in the village. <3
posted by kickingthecrap at 8:04 PM on June 23, 2013 [6 favorites]

Yeah, totally crying right now. Like, too much to type. You never can tell when something is going to hit WAY closer to home than you expect.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:05 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yep. I think everybody's gonna be okay.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:05 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Next season on Mad Men: Who is shitting in everybody's office?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:05 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Reading this thread when on a slight delay is even more entertaining/enigmatic than those "Next time on Mad Men" trailers
posted by peppermind at 8:08 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

I feel like I've just been suckerpunched into feeling all the feels.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:10 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

Next season, on Mad Men: Don and Ted and Pete and Bob set up offices in the old whorehouse.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:11 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

I want Kevin to grow up and push Margaret off of a boat.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2013 [7 favorites]

Yeah, wow, the more I think about it, that was such a 70s ending. It seems like we're heading into doom and despair but we're actually heading toward optimism via honesty and openness. Don stops drinking, regurgitates a crappy pseudo nostalgic ad but then actually discloses his real feelings of connection to the Hersey's guys, and frees himself from both his bad marriage (it was over the minute Megan insulted the kids) and the job he's been checked out of for over a year now. Transcendence!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:13 PM on June 23, 2013 [6 favorites]

Megan, Hank Venture called, he wants his kerchief back.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on June 23, 2013

It's like, we thought we could feel hopeful for Don when he fell in love with Megan but his salvation was never with a woman. It's with his kids, especially Sally. It only ever has been. It makes me want to watch this season again, keeping an eye out for the nods to his love for his children. He told Sylvia he was saving her kid because he's a father, too. She thought he was lying. I don't think he was, now.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:22 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Are there links to better examinations of Kiernan Shipka's method than this Q&A from a couple of weeks ago? Because that look…

I hope she gets an individual nomination for her performance this year.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:26 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm so excited about next season, but is it weird to say I almost would have been happy with this as the series finale? Such a perfect, perfect ending.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 PM on June 23, 2013 [9 favorites]

That last shot of Sally looking up at him, and him at her, seeing each other as real complex human beings -- wow. Brilliantly done. (It actually reminded me a lot of how the film "The Squid and the Whale" ended. Obscure connection, I know.)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:28 PM on June 23, 2013 [5 favorites]

Oh god, on rewatch, the flashback preacher totally gave us the thesis of the episode: "The only unpardonable sin is to believe God cannot forgive you." ~~Don~~ Dick has to believe that he's forgiveable and redeemable in the eyes of his daughter, even if he exposes his true self to her, to make good. And . . . he does! I just don't even.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:31 PM on June 23, 2013 [6 favorites]

In my head, "Where is My Mind?" by The Pixies was playing as Don and Sally looked at each other.
posted by dry white toast at 8:35 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

Ooh, clever use of music! The song playing on the jukebox during the preacher scene is the same one that was playing when we were introduced to Don in the pilot
posted by peppermind at 8:38 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

The big pivot in this episode is such a tiny little moment: Ted says to Don, "My father...," which is an intimate confession about his past, which Don later reciprocates at the pitch meeting; it's an epiphany for Don that hey, having a drunk for a father might not be so great.

That's the whole theme of the episode: Confession and forgiveness. It's shoved in there all over the damn place.

(It's really, really obvious having just watched that episode of The Killing right beforehand. Same theme.)
posted by Sys Rq at 8:39 PM on June 23, 2013 [9 favorites]

I was thinking the exact same thing, Sys Rq.
posted by mothershock at 8:41 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sys Rq - Yes, I saw that too! That little two-word line changed everything.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:42 PM on June 23, 2013

From Twitter, h/t coldchef.
posted by donajo at 8:43 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

It would be sort of awesome if Don was just gone in the last season, and it was all about Peggy's rise as creative director.
posted by donajo at 8:44 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

There were so many first season parallels--the Tammy and Pete shot is very close to the shot of Don and the kids in the first episode; Don's initial Hersey pitch feels really close to his carousel pitch, and initially you're misdirected to think that Ted might respond to the family imagery the same way Harry did. But they're more like inversions than precise mirrors. Pete is in no way tethered to Tammy at all, not like Don is to his children. And Don drops the bullshit and goes for honest disclosure instead with Herseys. His feelings toward the product are so specific and personal that he can't even build a fiction around it.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:44 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

She could train Dawn as her protege.
posted by donajo at 8:44 PM on June 23, 2013

Did anyone else notice that Peggy was in Don's office at the end, and when Stan asked if she was leaving, she said, "No, everything's in here"?
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:46 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

Plus she's wearin' the pants.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:48 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

When Don wished Dawn a happy Thanksgiving, I just kind of mushed into tears until the end of the episode.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:49 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Wait is that the first time we've seen Peggy in pants in the office??
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:49 PM on June 23, 2013

When Don wished Dawn a happy Thanksgiving, I just kind of mushed into tears until the end of the episode.

This. Yes.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:50 PM on June 23, 2013

I'm pretty positive, yes.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:50 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

It was a knitted tartan plaid, if I remember right. Maybe not knitted -- but nonetheless a callback to Megan's soap-opera crochet masterpiece.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 8:54 PM on June 23, 2013

Not to mention that in the first season, Don was rock solid in pitch meetings. Everyone else was just in his orbit. This season, his pitch meetings were like throwing gasoline on a fire, right from the Hilton pitch in the season premiere.

The significance of the "my father..." moment was a great catch. Like he was seeing Sally in the future. But I also wonder if that whole conversation, with Ted being straight with him, and just openly asking for his help, and demonstrating that there are ways to redeem yourself, is what set Don down his path.
posted by dry white toast at 8:59 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

One of the things I loved about this episode was the feeling that Don's really going to be free now. He's moved past:

His divorce and subsequent alienation from Bets
His need to pretend to make Megan happy
His alienation from Sally and his kiddos
His weirdness with Ted
His role at SC&P
His need to lie about his childhood
His drinking-himself-to-death (okay, maybe not)
posted by mynameisluka at 9:08 PM on June 23, 2013

The last shot of Peggy is almost a perfect logo shot with her in the Don chair.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:14 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Another first-season parallel -- Don uses the pet name "Bertie" when he gets the call about Sally.

Perfect closing song, too. (That's part of what made me lose it.)
posted by flyingsquirrel at 9:15 PM on June 23, 2013

I wouldn't be surprised if the next season is about Peggy taking over the agency. Several years ago, I wrote this:

This is Peggy Olson, who is, in a way, the shadow lead character in the show — "Mad Men" opens with her introduction to Sterling Cooper as a secretary, and, as she has moved up through the ranks, she has grown to be more and more like Don Draper, including a secret past and a tendency to bully her employees when she doesn't get her way.

I would find it very interesting if the next season is Peggy battling the possibility that to do Don's job as well as he once did, she must contend with the real possibility that it will make her more like him at his worst.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 9:18 PM on June 23, 2013 [2 favorites]

Birdie, wasn't it? I always thought it was a charming nickname.

I'm so...well, grateful in a way, that the predictions that the storyline would naturally be, "people never change, can never redeem themselves, it always comes back to the same place in the end" seems to perhaps not be right. I mean, we obviously have the entire last season for Don to revert right back to form and up the drinking again. But I hope we don't. I don't mind if we close out the show not seeing him perfected, but at the very least moving towards something better in his life. I don't think a hopeful ending would be a bad thing at all.
posted by PussKillian at 9:18 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

And yes, I'd love for the final season to have Peggy taking on the central role, with Don trying to rebuild something in the background while she figures out her own way forward. Don would be a warning and perhaps something hopeful both.
posted by PussKillian at 9:21 PM on June 23, 2013

That episode had a lot of oh shit moments.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:23 PM on June 23, 2013

I also want to see focus on Pete. This was setting him up for growth and change as much as anyone. His freedom was explicitly spelled out by Trudy.

Pete is really smart, but has always tried to establish himself by doing what was expected of him, or trying to mimic others, badly. Left to forge his own authentic path, I think he could become both likable and happy.
posted by dry white toast at 9:26 PM on June 23, 2013 [3 favorites]

It kinda felt like an end to Pete, in a way. I wonder if we'll even see him next season. I doubt we'll see much of Ted (or I hope not).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:28 PM on June 23, 2013

It could be an end for Pete. But at the same time, as I said, it would be worthwhile to see how he evolves under these circumstances.

Geez, that ending really got to me.
posted by dry white toast at 9:32 PM on June 23, 2013

There were so many first season parallels

"Band of Gold," the song playing in the bar where Don hits the minister, is also the song we hear over the opening scene of the very first episode: we see Don sitting alone in a bar, scribbling on a napkin and trying to come up with a Lucky Strike pitch. I heard that and said "Oh, we're right back at the beginning."

And Megan's appearance in the lace-trimmed white nightgown (the first time we've seen her in a white nightie, isn't it?) calls back to Betty's season-one parade of white nighties and peignoirs, which I always read as a little ironic echo of a wedding dress, a reference to Betty's identity being centered so precariously around being wife to this faithless, lying, absent husband.
posted by Elsa at 9:51 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

I only just finished the rewatch because my date earlier went pretty well and I didn't get home until 11 or so so...I'll have to catch up with the thread tomorrow but just real quick...

I got my Joni Mitchell in the closing song!!
posted by sweetkid at 10:11 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ted looks like absolute sleepless guilt-ridden shit in that scene in Don's office where he says he needs to be the one to go. It almost makes me feel sorry for him, but... no. Screw that guy. He sucks.

And the whole pitch meeting to Hershey made me sit up in bed and bellow WHAT IS HAPPENING and I know my neighbors heard that. Sorry, neighbors.

I'm still digesting the whole episode, and I can't wait until I have a chance to marathon-watch the whole season over again to see how all the parts fit together. How long do we have to wait until the next season? How in the hell are they going to wrap all this up? Buhhhhhh. All the feels, happening now.

p.s. NOT GREAT BOB! I died. Oh, Pete. Stop making me sort of like you.
posted by palomar at 10:40 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

So many things, but I just want to toss in: How perfectly WASPy is it when Pete, accusing a man of being complicit in his own mother's murder, stops yelling when random onlookers enter the elevator? Because we mustn't lose our cool in public.

Perfect.
posted by purpleclover at 11:03 PM on June 23, 2013 [4 favorites]

I got my Joni Mitchell in the closing song!!

Albeit the Judy Collins version.

I'm still processing. I'm like whipsawed between hysterical laughter over Manolo and Pete's mom to... "This is where I grew up." It's like the whole carapace of Don Draper suddenly cracked open.

I feel sorry for Megan, though. It was like he had to completely betray her in order to free himself from her.
posted by jokeefe at 11:30 PM on June 23, 2013 [1 favorite]

Okay lots of tears at that ending, especially cos like a masochist I went back and watched that final scene a couple more times for maximum eye-squinting bawlage.

Know what I fucking love about this show? I'd say a solid 9/10ths of the discussion about it on the Internet involves critics and forumgoers analyzing Mad Men from the most cynical possible perspective. Here's how DON is gonna end up miserable and here's how PEGGY's gonna and here's how SALLY'S gonna and MEGAN'S gonna and BETTY'S gonna. In fact, that's what I see people do for every single good show on TV, pretty much. The game of the half-decade has been "let's come up with ways that a show's creators intend us to hate their characters!", which was not helped along by the fact that the two shows that kickstarted the whole good TV thing were The Sopranos and The Wire, both of which actually did want us to show lives of perpetual misery and doom.

But Mad Men is not doing the whole "let's use advertising as a way of talking about how, like, hollow America is, man." In fact, it's its more overtly symbolic moments that are its weakest. But it cares more about showing people reacting to each other and to the times than it cares about any of its deeper themes, and that means it's willing to give us character moments full of hope and change and possibly redemption.

I don't think I fully got how much I believed in, or cared about, Don's relationship with Sally, until that ending. Because I am not used to unexpectedly crying over fake people standing outside a fake house that much, unless one of those fake people has just been shot by one of his best friends. And that was just buckets of salt there.

<3
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:00 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

An interview with Matthew Weiner by Alan Sepinwall in which we learn Joan and Peggy did land Avon, so that's good.
posted by rewil at 12:00 AM on June 24, 2013

Also: loved that the last we see of Peggy she's sitting in the exact Don Draper Jumps Off A Building pose from the opening credits, down to her being completely silhouetted.

Also also: so fucking thrilled that Don is no longer trying to run to people or places in order to find happiness.
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:04 AM on June 24, 2013

From rewil's Sepinwall interview:

Relating to Don's behavior, he was behaving erratically, missing meetings, making unilateral decisions that hurt the firm. But what I also noticed was that even when his pitches were good, they involved specifically omitting the product. The Royal Hawaiian and Diamondhead are not in that ad, the ketchup is not in the Heinz ad, the car doesn't appear in his Vega teaser ad. Was there something specific to that? Was Don already disengaging from the game at that point?

Matthew Weiner: That's a very interesting analysis. It's hard for me to explain this, but Don's ads this year are spectacular. That omission is actually kind of an expression of creative genius. It is where things are going. It is the way advertising will be in 1975. You just have to talk the clients into it. The idea of how do you draw someone's attention in when you live literal photography and you can scream at them with the product bigger and more accurately than ever, is something they're struggling with. I don't want people to think Don is off his game. The clients are a little behind. That's the way they should see it. What they should really think about is that he ruined a public offering, he fired their most important client, he impulsively forced them into a partnership merger and then went to war against their partner. That's why he has the leave of absence. I don't think there should be any doubt that he is at the height of his abilities. The great thing about Don, and part of the contrast with Ted, is Don is not a fad-ist. Don is still operating from his own relationship with the product, which is more timeless. Despite trends in humor, photography and everything else that's going on in what the advertising agency's self-proclaimed creative revolution, Don's advertising, I think, is still great advertising, and probably better than a lot of the advertising that is getting sold. His understanding of television is the reason they got Sunkist, you know?

SO glad Weiner said this, because another thing critics have been doing irritatingly is talk about "oh Don's pitches are so bad this year, he's losing it etc etc etc", which as a former advertising student I didn't see at all. Mad Men's first or second episode has Don looking at Volkwagen's "Think Small" ad, in which the car is super tiny in the midst of a lot of white space, and not getting it—that was supposed to be indicative of how behind the times he was back then. Advertising moved away from this notion that ads ought to sell a product and towards the idea that you're creating a state of mind that people associate WITH a product in the 60s, and generally that's considered one of if not THE biggest changes in the way advertising works period.

Don has been turning out a hell of a lot of good concepts this year, and the fact that his Hersey one today actually involved kids and the product made it a lot weaker than some of his earlier ones, I felt. And in a sense, the movement of the 6th season has paralleled the transition in advertising, in ways that I probably can't articulate at 3 in the morning but which are definitely there. A focus away from materialism and towards emotion and introspection—but the shift doesn't, like, end capitalism or human nature or anything, it just shifts it a little bit towards the personal. Which you can look at cynically and say this is corporate America trying to emulate something deep and spiritual and profound, or look at optimistically and say this is the worst parts of the world slowly moving to become one with the best parts, but either way it's the same process really. Okay. Sleeping for real this time.
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:19 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

mynameisluka: " [Don's] moved past:

His divorce and subsequent alienation from Bets
His need to pretend to make Megan happy
His alienation from Sally and his kiddos
His weirdness with Ted
His role at SC&P
His need to lie about his childhood
His drinking-himself-to-death (okay, maybe not)"

Man, Weiner was not lying about saying that he wasn't leaving any plot to burn... and I'm glad the show didn't finish with Weiner out-David Chasing, David Chase.

I love the subtext that California is where one runs off to to fix all of their problems, where Don can run off to to try to capture that fleeting happy, and evade the noose of Sally's glare of knowing. As said above, Ted's plea for his children is what pulled Don from the edge, and forcing him to confront his own child (and past). He locked himself into having to stay and be honest.
posted by stratastar at 1:06 AM on June 24, 2013

One thing that really struck me about this episode (and whooeeeyyy did this episode ever strike me!) was this recurring theme of recognizing that what you got is actually a disguised version of what you secretly wanted. Just about everybody in this episode gets what they want by the end, and most of them acknowledge it in some way. What makes this not so obvious however is that throughout most of the scenes the characters are fighting it, doing what they think they should do, or focusing on something else entirely, or experiencing the emotional turbulence of everything that led up to it.

So many times we happening through the events of our lives, tripping in the emotions we should feel (or the ones we don't expect to feel). If we're lucky, somebody finds a way to say, "Hey, what if you don't have to fight this battle? What if you just let it go? What if you stay still? You can be happy right here, just like this."

The conversation after Pete's call with the inspector about his mother is a good example. And then later with Trudy, saying he's free. Pete's always felt constrained. He's been a breaking point for a long time. (Also, you can see on Pete's face, sitting behind the wheel of the stalled car, that he recognizes instantly that he fell into the same trap that he knew better to avoid last week. Two steps forward, one reverse back.)

Peggy, too. At the end she's in her office and tells Stan that she's got all she needs right there. [Then puts herself in the classic Mad Man opening credit silhouette chair pose]

Don's been fighting going down in that elevator forever (metaphorical rock bottom, if you will). When he finally gets there, he's on the street, with his kids and he has a brief moment of redemption. While stripped of everything. He looks better, healthier, happier in that scene, with the hat, than he has the entirety of the season.

Roger gets what he wants too. But he was previously trying to get it in the wrong place, in the wrong way, with the wrong approach.

There's many more and I think for me it's what makes this episode feel so good, despite everybody being ruined and stripped of everything they have. It's like chipping away at alabaster and, oh hey, sculptures!

Can I also just say that I love that all of this was really Stan's idea? Makes me laugh thinking about that...what he started.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:40 AM on June 24, 2013 [12 favorites]

Also from Sepinwall's interview with Weiner:

"Do you have a similar arrangement in place with James Wolk, or will Bob just be in Detroit all year?

Matthew Weiner: I can't tell you. You have to watch. We loved having him on the show. I would say that the little thought I've given it, I don't think his story is over."

Excellent news.
posted by crossoverman at 4:22 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Bob Benson should definitely stay. It's amazing how much affection and interest his character has generated in just one season.

Groovy new SC&P logo in the lobby.

I wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened to Mother Campbell. Bob Benson was sure Manolo wouldn't hurt a fly, and he's probably a shrewd judge of character.

It's hilarious in a gothic kind of way that Pete and his brother decide it's not worth the money to track down their mother's possible murderer.

Oh Pete, don't mess with Bob Benson. He knows you can't drive standard. God knows what else he knows and would do with it, all the while looking like the nicest guy in the world.

Now Bob Benson has the Detroit account all to himself!

Now Betty feels bad because she got divorced and she thinks it's the cause of Sally's problems? No, Betty, even though you did it for your own sake, getting divorced was one of the better parenting decisions you've made, and the older your kids get the more they'll realize that.

Peggy, for crying out loud, find a man who isn't married (or about to be) to get it on with.

The outfit that Peggy was wearing the day after banging Ted was the same outfit she wore when he hired for CGC.

Ted, did you even consider that maybe your wife won't WANT to go to California?

Everyone wants to go to California. Everyone. And they all think they'll magically be happier there.

I find it hard to believe Bob Benson could be leading Joan on — surely she'll have figured out that he's gay, or he would have told her. It took her just one kiss to suss out Sal Romano. As long as they're clear on that, all is good, because Joan can use a friend like Bob who will care for her without wanting anything in return but her friendship, Kevin needs a man in his life and I bet he loves his Uncle Bob, and get a load of Bob carving the turkey in that apron.

I wonder if that's the end of the second Mrs. Draper or if Megan will soldier on. But I mean, for crying out loud, she quit her job for Don.

Peggy's wearing the pants. And they're plaid. But we didn't get to find out what she named her cat.:-(

Best line of the episode: "I'd tell you to go to hell, but I don't want to see you again."
posted by orange swan at 4:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

I find it hard to believe Bob Benson could be leading Joan on — surely she'll have figured out that he's gay, or he would have told her.

If I know anything, I know that Joan knows about Bob's sexuality. That's really clear to me.
posted by crossoverman at 4:55 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

No one's mentioned the run in at the elevator with Don, Duck, and Don's replacement (?). Wow, that scene was fraught.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:14 AM on June 24, 2013

Yeah, presumably Don's replacement. But boy, did Peggy look perfect in his office :)
posted by crossoverman at 5:19 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I love the subtext that California is where one runs off to to fix all of their problems, where Don can run off to to try to capture that fleeting happy

I laughed out loud when he said that to Megan. Remember where it was in California that they were so happy: THE HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:32 AM on June 24, 2013

Stan loses out but at least Don is gone as a sort of consolation prize for him.

Come on, you know what Stan got: Peggy all to himself.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:42 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

Okay, so Megan's obviously going to end up with Harry Crane, right?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:04 AM on June 24, 2013

I wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened to Mother Campbell. Bob Benson was sure Manolo wouldn't hurt a fly, and he's probably a shrewd judge of character.

Oh god, no. Bob who hit on Pete? Who sent a deli platter to the Sterling funeral? Bob is a terrible judge of character, and he was screaming at Manolo on the phone to leave Ma Campbell alone. He's an impoverished social climber who has likely heretofore been surrounded by other impoverished social climbers. What he likely fails to recognize is Manolo's desperation--he assumes that because the guy is gay he'd have nothing to do with the elderly woman.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:47 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

I'm actually not sure I totally buy the ending. "Oh, see kids, this house I grew up in is in a bad part of town!" Well, who's to say it was a bad part of town thirty years ago when Don lived there? How could Sally know that?

(Also, I had sorta assumed that house was out in the midwest somewhere, but I don't know if that was ever actually established...)
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:56 AM on June 24, 2013

I am now officially going crazy; Amazon Instant Video doesn't have the finale up yet. I feel like having a self-righteous Pete Campbell-style meltdown wherein I shout at Amazon about this donnybrook! until it pours me a drink and soothes me.

Seriously though, I *need* to see this episode. :'(
posted by ladybird at 6:59 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm actually not sure I totally buy the ending. "Oh, see kids, this house I grew up in is in a bad part of town!" Well, who's to say it was a bad part of town thirty years ago when Don lived there? How could Sally know that?

I think Sally is reacting more to the fact that Don is revealing anything about his past to them vs. seeing he was raised in the bad part of town.
posted by mikepop at 7:04 AM on June 24, 2013

Plus it's not like Sally is rushing to hug and forgive him after this reveal. I'm sure we'll still see plenty of resentment/surliness next season.
posted by mikepop at 7:06 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Okay the iTunes description of this episode just says " Don has a problem."

Eep.

( gets Orange juice, Biscut, and headphones ready)
posted by The Whelk at 7:10 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

The ending isn't about whether or not the house is in a bad part of town. It's about an alcoholic who is starting to figure out how to be honest with himself, his family, and his coworkers about who he is and what brought him to this point.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:23 AM on June 24, 2013 [10 favorites]

The ending isn't about whether or not the house is in a bad part of town.

Yeah, it's about a man who says his life goes in one direction, "forward," taking a step and going back to where it started. The opposite of running away to California.
posted by sweetkid at 7:31 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

showbiz_liz: "(Also, I had sorta assumed that house was out in the midwest somewhere, but I don't know if that was ever actually established...)"

I think it had been previously been explicitly stated as Pennsylvania.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:34 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Something about the framing of Sterling & Cooper in the shot of the partners seemed significant to me. This season, we've really seen both of them pull their weight--Cooper making significant executive decisions, up to and including Don's leave of absence, Sterling bringing in Chevy, working it as an account man in a way we haven't seen for a long time. It's easy to count them out as useless, but I don't think they are, at all. I think the business is their lives, and that's important.

Also, I've watched six seasons of this show expecting Cooper to kick the bucket, mostly because both the actor and the character are old and that's what happens on TV. But now, I don't really think so, not anymore.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

From T&Lo's recap: "Having said that, the ambiguity sometimes got a little annoying, if not downright insulting at times. Matthew Weiner says in a post-season interview conducted by Alan Sepinwall that not only did Joan land the Avon account, but that he assumes the audience understands that."

Eh. It was strongly implied by Weiner in the gifts sent by Avon earlier this season, and what was important was the alliance and the gambit, not the outcome, anyway. Yes, Weiner expects us to be good readers of the show, but that's actually the opposite of insulting.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:43 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

Yeah, Don wasn't saying it to garner sympathy. It was just an attempt to begin to be authentic with his kids.

Someone mentioned up thread Don and Sally seeing the complexity in each other. Don still needs to see that Sally is becoming a fully formed person, who can't just be told how things are.

Showing the whorehouse to her was the start of that conversation.
posted by dry white toast at 7:43 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Recaps on "In Care of": Tom and Lorenzo and AV Club.
posted by orange swan at 7:43 AM on June 24, 2013

Something about the framing of Sterling & Cooper in the shot of the partners seemed significant to me. This season, we've really seen both of them pull their weight--Cooper making significant executive decisions, up to and including Don's leave of absence, Sterling bringing in Chevy, working it as an account man in a way we haven't seen for a long time. It's easy to count them out as useless, but I don't think they are, at all. I think the business is their lives, and that's important.

I don't think it's easy to count them out as useless. They have a lot of experience and a strong track record in being partners in an agency. We have some brief moments with Roger's behavior and anxiety around losing lucky strike, and his racist outburts and yes Cooper is old but I think they play exactly right at the big partner moments.

Cooper's "this isn't a trial" was such a classic line in how to fire someone. This isn't a negotiation, this won't be a discussion, we've reached a decision, here, briefly, is why, and now you need to go.
posted by sweetkid at 7:45 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Does Don ever have to work again? Presumably his shares would be brought out if he never returned, right? Would that plus everything else he has made over the years be enough for him to live on if he and Megan get divorced? Can he just move to California and build hot rods?

Did they buy the NY apartment, or were they just renting?

Cooper's "Noooo" in response to Don's demand for a return date ties "NOT GREAT, BOB" as my favorite line delivery this episode.
posted by mikepop at 7:51 AM on June 24, 2013

Someone mentioned up thread Don and Sally seeing the complexity in each other. Don still needs to see that Sally is becoming a fully formed person, who can't just be told how things are.

I think he started to realize that with Betty's phone call--on the same night he pours out all his booze, no less. She's becoming him, and he knows it, even if up until that moment he was resolved to run away from her. When he tells Megan they can't go to California, he reveals how much of this is about Sally when he says, "It's not just Sally." Even though he never shared his thoughts with Megan at the time, I think that's when he started to know.

I don't think it's easy to count them out as useless.

There has been deliberate misdirection around both of them; during the S&C years, Roger's big account is essentially a legacy account and we're left to assume he's largely a useless playboy, though the subsequent writing reveals it was much more complicated than that (Lee Garner Jr. makes him cup his balls once!). Cooper doesn't even have an office at SCDP, and when he does, it's significantly reduced in size and mostly we see him sitting around reading newspapers in it. I think part of it is comfort in social standing. Up until this season, we've mostly seen Don tirelessly hustling to get where he is. When he starts growing complacent, assuming he's integral the same way these older partners are, it's challenged. He doesn't have the security of position or old money like they do--and that counts for a lot in this business, clearly. And he's not as good at the social niceties aspect of his job, largely because of the class divide. I think that small moment, when we had Roger asking if anything in that Hershey's meeting was true, was significant. Don simply says "Yes." Like Betty, the partners realize that a classless whore's son is a big liability.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:53 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Didn't Cooper say "We can't do that?" He might have said "No, we can't do that" but I don't remember too much of a drawn out "no"
posted by sweetkid at 7:53 AM on June 24, 2013

Mikepop, they bought the apartment. It cost $75,000. They talked about it with the Rosens.
posted by purpleclover at 7:57 AM on June 24, 2013

Peggy, too. At the end she's in her office and tells Stan that she's got all she needs right there. [Then puts herself in the classic Mad Man opening credit silhouette chair pose]

That's because she's in Don's office. The moment when she sat in his chair, at his desk, was absolutely weighted with meaning. You couldn't get more symbolic if you used a two by four.
posted by jokeefe at 8:02 AM on June 24, 2013 [5 favorites]

Didn't Cooper say "We can't do that?" He might have said "No, we can't do that"

This is why I should give everything a second watch before commenting. Perhaps I was just re-imagining it.

Mikepop, they bought the apartment. It cost $75,000.

Thanks; so they would be able to recover that money at least.
posted by mikepop at 8:03 AM on June 24, 2013

One of T&Lo's more egregious misreadings, I think:

Trudy’s sometimes portrayed as a supernaturally understanding wife figure and we have to admit, we had a hard time buying her kindness toward Pete this episode. He detonated their marriage in a pretty ugly way less than a year before. She’s a single mother in 1968 with the same upper-class expectations for her life that Betty Hofstadt once had. We like that they’re drawing distinctions between her and Betty (who was consumed with rage for years following the divorce), but her calmness and kind looks were a little unsettling – unless Pete and Trudy aren’t really done yet (which we have to admit, is our hope). Pete’s a shit, but he deserves more happiness in his life.

I thought Trudy's reaction was pitch-perfect, as someone who has once genuinely loved Pete but realized that they never, ever wanted the same things. And Trudy has always been like this--calm, cool, decisive, and in control. Also, god, as a couple they are so done, and good.

I thought the costuming choices in Pete's last scene were really interesting. Well, the costuming choices in all of the last scenes. They're all very 70s, but we've never seen Pete look so button-down before. I wonder what he'll be like next season, when we see him, between the pot smoking and the liberalism and the fact that he's off to California with few ties to his previous life.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:06 AM on June 24, 2013 [8 favorites]

BOB KNOWS HIS WAY AROUND A STICK .

God, there was an ass slap " do it in public." sometimes it's not even subtext you know.

ALSO SHE FELL OFF A SHIP.

Also Peggy LARPing Joan there in that dress, also Don just casually ruining lives like he always does - and finally being called out on it!
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 AM on June 24, 2013

Also I think the age appropriate read of Sally's expression at the end there is " oh for god's sake what fresh flora of bullshit is he doing now?"
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Don just casually ruining lives like he always does

I dunno, I really see Ted as the real bastard in this episode. "Have a drink before the meeting" indeed. Ted puts a lot of work into the nice guy persona, maybe even believes it, but when he wants something he feels he's entitled to he'll run over anyone who gets in his way. "You get to make decisions" indeed.

(I say this, believing that in the part of the "I need to go to California" meeting that we didn't see, Don somehow told them he'd sworn off the booze. Ted's "have a drink" comment leads me to that -- the partners knew he was trying to get on the wagon, and Ted used that knowledge to get Don, basically, fired.)
posted by anastasiav at 8:18 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

This, from the T&Lo comments, is insightful and helpful to me: "Three things stood out for me last night: The preacher's words about Judas, that his sin was in believing that his sin was too great for forgiveness. I was raised Catholic, and I remember that lesson being a big deal. Judas could have been forgiven for betraying Jesus, but he thought his sin was too great and offed himself, a perverse form of pride."

I'm not a Christian, so I missed that, about Judas. It makes me feel a little bit better that I thought Weiner might go the suicide route (despite assuring us that no one would die--does Pete's mother count, anyway?!). I saw it as a closing off of Don's plotlines. First, his past (prefaced with "I don't know if I'm ever going to see you again"), then Megan, then the agency. I turned to my husband and said, "What's left for him? Only Sally. I hope we don't see her alone at the infirmary, getting the news that her dad is dead." It really felt like a settling of accounts. That goodbye to Dawn was so final, so heartbreaking.

But that flashback was unusually illuminating. Dick doesn't just hear the preacher's advice. He smiles at it. Dick is no Judas; he wouldn't kill himself, even if Don suffered a certain kind of death this episode.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:19 AM on June 24, 2013

Dear Americans, moving west will not solve all your problems!

Also, predicted Megan would end up out west for her job, unless she's perusing theatre only there's not too much for a movie-goal actress in NY at the time.
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

ALSO SHE FELL OFF A SHIP

I'm still processing how a horrifying, tragic, just lonely and sad and murderous and terrible event like this was played in the background for laughs in the episode. That's not a criticism, I actually thought it was really interesting and FANTASTICALLY played by the actors - from Pete's "NOT GREAT BOB!" sort of typically fussy response to everything but confusion about how/whether to express deep sorrow, to Bob's sort of blank wanting to "help" but also not ever wanting Pete to get the better of him, even when his own friend has actually murdered Pete's mother.

It was all so bewildering.
posted by sweetkid at 8:20 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

It seems like we're supposed to think ill of the brothers Campbell for not sparing any expense on bringing Manolo down, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. It really won't bring her back, after all.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:22 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I actually don't think we were supposed to think all that ill of them. They're sort of both wounded men. They didn't have a great upbringing and have unusual reactions to grief. The end shot of them set up a distance between even the two brothers, sitting on either side of the desk. All they have is each other, and even that isn't really going to do.
posted by sweetkid at 8:24 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

Every time Bob smiles I just hear ominous strings now. Also, his apron! The perfect Saturday Evening Post image of America, a single mom, the older married man she had a baby with but doesn't tell him it's his, her scheming mother, and the possibly murderous social climbing gay guy she's playng house with. And this is the MOST FUNCTIONAL family we see.

Also, poor Betty! All of my feels. So many. I've never felt for her as much, it's got to be so terrifying to parent a kid that age.

Once again, everyone gets what they want in the worst way possible.

( also, did anyone notice how Uhhh...bad Stan looked? Like spooky eyed and drained and pasty and desperate?)
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

I liked seeing that as their one moment of true alliance, though.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Seriously if anyone deserves an Emmy this season it's Kartheiser. I don't even have words for how much I've admired his acting this season.
posted by sweetkid at 8:26 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

And this is the MOST FUNCTIONAL family we see

Haha. Yeah.
posted by sweetkid at 8:27 AM on June 24, 2013

Oh, also, seeing Peggy slut it up was pretty hilarious. We've seen her in that military dress before, but always with, like, a turtleneck under it. Waaaay too much skin there. Poor girl. The pants looked much better on her, at least.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:27 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

What about Bob setting Pete up to fail in Detroit? I think I remember Pete's non-driving coming up a couple of times in the past. It was a reason he hated being out of the city. I was expecting something much worse than just property (and ego) damage.

That Bob.
posted by readery at 8:27 AM on June 24, 2013

Yeah I was bracing myself for a lawnmower moment when Pete was in the car.
posted by sweetkid at 8:28 AM on June 24, 2013

I think I remember Pete's non-driving coming up a couple of times in the past.

Pete did get his license, but he's still not a good nor very experienced driver, and he had probably never driven anything other than an automatic car.

Enjoy California, Pete. You'll have to drive there.
posted by orange swan at 8:32 AM on June 24, 2013

Ted's "have a drink" comment leads me to that

There has been no offscreen discussion or disclosure of Don going cold turkey. There was a focus pull from Don's shaking hand to Ted's eyes right before Ted told Don both "have a drink" and (as well as, not incidentally, us) that he is an adult child of an alcoholic. The specific implication in the moment of the scene is that's Ted's childhood programming toward hypervigilance as a result of having a drunk dad allows him to immediately make Don.

Whether or not you personally subscribe to AA and associated theories of addiction and psychology, this show pretty clearly uses them as at least an element of character psychology and motivation.

I thought it was a pretty helpful and awfully explicit bit of character-bible sharing; we now have a roadmap for Ted's weirdly entitled and self-serving behavior in the context of his self-percieved and projected nice-guy bit. It also explains his helpless need to engage with Don's bullshit.
posted by mwhybark at 8:33 AM on June 24, 2013 [15 favorites]

Yes, he can fix Don! His business father!
posted by The Whelk at 8:35 AM on June 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

I mean in that scene, with his short little tie, I did think " god he looks like he's ten."
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 AM on June 24, 2013

Also, Millennium Biltmore! Now and forever, the foyer of GM.
posted by mwhybark at 8:46 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

despite assuring us that no one would die--does Pete's mother count, anyway?!

She's only presumed dead. They never found the body. Sharks, you know. Perhaps this was a plan suggested by her devious but not-quite murderous new groom, since no one would accept their forbidden love/marriage!

(More probably she's dead though)

So his dad dies in a plan crash, his mom on a ship (well, technically right next to a ship I guess) and Pete has a known problem with cars (reinforced this episode). Should he really be moving to Los Angeles?
posted by mikepop at 8:47 AM on June 24, 2013

Ugh, the ep still isn't up on Amazon.
posted by donajo at 8:48 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

STAY HOME, CAMPBELLS.
posted by orange swan at 8:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

( also, did anyone notice how Uhhh...bad Stan looked? Like spooky eyed and drained and pasty and desperate?)

That's interesting. And waiting, bright and early, to pounce on Don. Almost like he has to get out of town to get away from something. Like a habit? Speed kills, Stan. Get it together, hipster.
posted by mwhybark at 8:52 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Dear Americans, moving west will not solve all your problems!

Will they ever learn
posted by sweetkid at 8:52 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

She's only presumed dead. They never found the body.

Or, er, Manny. So who reported her missing? Manolo? They were both on the ship, right? Or did he go missing at the same time too? That seems unlikely, since it would have been in that telegram. Clearly, a timeline needs to be developed. Get cracking, we only have about seven months.
posted by mwhybark at 8:56 AM on June 24, 2013

She's only presumed dead. They never found the body. Sharks, you know. Perhaps this was a plan suggested by her devious but not-quite murderous new groom, since no one would accept their forbidden love/marriage!

If you ever want to spook yourself before going on a cruise, do some googling because this apparently still happens quite often, particularly with cruise ship employees. People just . . . disappear. Slippery decks don't mix well with alcohol, I guess.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:59 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pete will somehow die on a horse.

Also i think the unifying theme for the the finale was " cold turkey"
posted by The Whelk at 9:01 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

( also buwahahaha that ficlet is still canon)
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 AM on June 24, 2013

PhoBWanKenobi: "Oh, also, seeing Peggy slut it up was pretty hilarious. We've seen her in that military dress before, but always with, like, a turtleneck under it. Waaaay too much skin there. Poor girl. The pants looked much better on her, at least."

This maybe very shallow of me, but I enjoyed all of the Peggy skin this week. Rawr.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:06 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Hey, I just realized that Peggy got her wish with Don and Ted this episode--Ted finally rubbed off on Don. Even as Don was rubbing off on Ted, to the extent that Pegs didn't notice Don's change because she was too busy with her affair.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:12 AM on June 24, 2013

I feel like Peggy couldn't care less about Don this episode. After the "monster" bit from last week, she's done.
posted by sweetkid at 9:13 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Peggy is pretty self-righteous for a would-be homewrecker. Get over yourself, hon.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:16 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I honestly think the monster bit was all pretty selfish of Peggy--in an almost Don way. He's a monster because he stopped her from getting what she wants, not because of any genuine moral failing. I think her dress and face-palmy obvious walking into a completely typical, tired mistress situation showed that Don was right and that her work and good sense were probably compromised by the Ted situation.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:17 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

I wonder if Peggy was annoyed that Don put a dagger in her potential affair by letting Ted go to California?
posted by drezdn at 9:19 AM on June 24, 2013

Peggy is pretty self-righteous for a would-be homewrecker.

I think that would be Ted's home to wreck and therefore, Ted doing the wrecking. It's not great for Peggy's emotions that she's getting involved with a married man, but if Ted's marriage is "wrecked" by any of this that is on him and not her.
posted by sweetkid at 9:20 AM on June 24, 2013 [9 favorites]

Ted's "have a drink" comment leads me to that -- the partners knew he was trying to get on the wagon, and Ted used that knowledge to get Don, basically, fired.

I read this very differently, because it immediately preceded Ted's "My father..." comment. They were about to head into a meeting, and Ted knew (from his childhood) that someone going through withdrawal/cold turkey would not be able to just jump on the wagon without physically apparent consequences. I didn't see it as malicious or conniving; I think it was a gut, instinctual reaction with an eye towards "please don't fuck this meeting up." There was also a tone of disgust and disappointment in how he said it.

Good god I am going to miss this show (and these wonderfully communal dissections during and afterwards).
posted by flyingsquirrel at 9:21 AM on June 24, 2013 [12 favorites]

Do you think Peggy is on track to become Don?
You know, she’s sitting behind Don’s desk in his office — there’s literally nothing I can say about it without being more obvious! [Laughs.] It is what it is.

Good wrap-up interview with Elizabeth Moss, who also talks about the monster line.
posted by rewil at 9:23 AM on June 24, 2013

As much as I appreciate it Don trying to be authentic with his kids and fix this relationship there is literally the lifetime of lying and bullshit there
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

To me, when Pete and his brother were talking to the investigator, it sounded like they were being upsold on a sales call: "You do OF COURSE want the deluxe 'Fully Bring Your Mother's Killer To Justice' package, right?"

[Pete calls the investigator back later]

PETE: I'm sorry Alvin but I talked it over with my brother and that's just a bit more than we can afford.

ALVIN: I understand Mr. Campbell. Well our standard "Thorough Investigation" package *does* often produce results but it does take a bit longer and we can't guarantee that

PETE [interrupting]: That still sounds rather expensive. Is there another option?

ALVIN: Well, sir, we have the "Ask Around Enough to Appear Respectable" package but surely

PETE: Yes, that sounds like just the thing.

ALVIN: But sir!

PETE: Tell my girl the details and good day sir.
posted by mikepop at 9:26 AM on June 24, 2013 [12 favorites]

I think it was a gut, instinctual reaction with an eye towards "please don't fuck this meeting up." There was also a tone of disgust and disappointment in how he said it.

Ah, see. I think he really, desperately wanted Don to fuck this meeting up. Because he knew, as Don did not, that Don was about a single misstep away from ... well, maybe he doesn't know precisely what, but following Don being a no-show for the hotel people, he realizes that Don is -- even for all his gifts -- on his last chance. And having Don out of the way would clear oh so many things for Ted.

Of course the "my father" bit reads as true, and even may be true ... but he never says exactly what happened with his father. Only implies it. The good man's version of telling a lie.
posted by anastasiav at 9:27 AM on June 24, 2013

I don't think Don is expecting to wave a magic wand and make it all better. But the truth has set him free; he told his partners the truth, and now he's telling his family, and then, echoing the speech that Trudy made to Pete, Don/Dick can be free. He understood that the only way to have any hope of salvaging a relationship with Sally was to be honest with her, and that's how he started.
posted by ambrosia at 9:30 AM on June 24, 2013

Here's my contribution to the world of Mad Men animated GIFs.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:31 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

sweetkid: "I think that would be Ted's home to wreck and therefore, Ted doing the wrecking. It's not great for Peggy's emotions that she's getting involved with a married man, but if Ted's marriage is "wrecked" by any of this that is on him and not her."

Respectfully disagree. It takes two to tango. Ted is 100% guilty of potentially ruining his marriage, but Peggy is guilty, as well. It's not as if Ted had concealed the fact of his marriage and kids. She has agency, and chose to pursue something with a man who is morally off limits.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

To be honest, I was actually surprised at how quickly Peggy let herself fall for a married man, which is such a Don thing to do. It never really rang quite true for me, but at the same time I delighted in seeing her so happy. Her "you get to make decisions" line was PERFECT. But seeing her in Don's office in the shadow-pose, I fear she's going to become harder than ever... and perhaps more Don-like. Maybe that's been her path for awhile. Sigh.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 9:35 AM on June 24, 2013

yeah, it's just deeply problematic to me to blame women who get involved with married men for "ruining' the home etc. I've rarely seen it flipped to call men 'homewreckers.'
She has agency

She also had her emotions fairly well manipulated by Ted, who said he was leaving his wife. Peggy doesn't have a great track record with relationships or managing her emotions in them.

Getting involved with a married man isn't a good thing for Peggy because it will end up in her getting hurt, which it did, but not because she should feel herself responsible for breaking up the Chaough marriage. That's on Ted.
posted by sweetkid at 9:38 AM on June 24, 2013 [8 favorites]

Some quality time with Purry Como will get Peggy back on track.
posted by drezdn at 9:38 AM on June 24, 2013

Ah, see. I think he really, desperately wanted Don to fuck this meeting up.

I don't think that Ted wanted Don to fuck up a meeting with a potential $20 (or was it 30?) million client, regardless of the issues he may have with Don. It was just about getting rid of the shakes.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:38 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

Yeah, I think Ted wanted Don to take a drink so he wouldn't fuck up the meeting.
posted by sweetkid at 9:39 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

What does it mean that both Pete's parents died on forms of transportation?
posted by Sara C. at 9:41 AM on June 24, 2013

Also (having not watched the whole thing yet, I'll warn you)

If Megan does not end up hugely pregnant and sitting next to Sharon Tate at the OBGYN I will eat my hat.
posted by Sara C. at 9:45 AM on June 24, 2013

re lost at sea: Jon Ronson's bit from the Guardian a couple of years ago.

...wanted Don to fuck this meeting up...

I doubt it was that literal. One of the ACOA roles is enabler - if you help your parent to stay drunk, they stay oblivious and dependent and therefore can be controlled. So I think we can see the advice as unconsciously, organically delivered in the service of unreflective, patterned behavior.

However, and this is interesting, would Don have blurted out the whoreson orphan bit without the booze in his brain? It's a disinhibitor, after all. The cutting and direction in that scene also makes it clear that in the meeting proper, Ted is thinking about other things - likely his family and behavior and what to do - instead of the meeting. Don notices this directly before his bit. He's also already lifted wholesale from Stan, so we know he's extremely suggestible at the moment, just open to any random remark or discussion becoming his latest effort at heedless self-definition.

So my guess is the booze helped prompt the moment, but Ted wasn't suggesting it with conscious malice.
posted by mwhybark at 9:48 AM on June 24, 2013

I feel like it was sort of a death knell (not literal death, but like for the character) for Megan when she said that bit about 'you just want to drink and get wrapped up in your ex wife and screwed up kids.' I mean drinking, sure, ex-wife, yeah that's Betty, but the kids - I feel like she's had growing contempt for the kids for a while and sort of being so open about it - bad show, Megan. Remember he first started liking her because of her sweetness towards them.

Especially now that Don's in so much pain about Sally.
posted by sweetkid at 9:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

PEGGY NO
posted by Sara C. at 9:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think Peggy desperately wanted to believe Ted, like thousands of women before her, because she genuinely loved him. She thought she was driving the car, but she wasn't. It's sad, foolish, naive, but not really contemptible.

I think you said this really well, and I totally agree with you. I just think this whole trope of the "other woman" being a "homewrecker" needs to die the vile death it deserves.
posted by sweetkid at 9:52 AM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

Something that has been bothering me for a while (and I'm probably misremembering to some extent anyway) is Ted's affiliation with relgion...wasn't he unreachable for some time because he was on a super serious religious retreat? I feel like they wouldn't introduce that unless it had some bearing on his decisions, etc. And to be honest, I only first remembered that when we found out he was a pilot as well. Next year on Mad Men, Ted's whacky stint in the circus (maybe he and Roger can do a juggling act at the next pitch)!
posted by iamkimiam at 9:53 AM on June 24, 2013

And here's the best I could do with the closing scene. (It's still pretty large. GIF was never designed for this!)
posted by Rhomboid at 9:56 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

blah blah blah homewrecker

Can we please not continue this derail?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:56 AM on June 24, 2013

blah blah blah homewrecker

Can we please not continue this derail?

Pretty sure you started with that word.
posted by sweetkid at 9:58 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

And here's the best I could do with the closing scene.

Kiernan Shipka deserves an Emmy for that scene alone.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 9:59 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh come on, ONE fuckup backing out a car and Pete's off the account? KEN COSGROVE GOT SHOT IN THE FACE FOR THIS?
posted by Sara C. at 10:00 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

You gotta love cars to work with GM.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:01 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I know, Chevy's just going to burn through Account Managers apparently.
posted by sweetkid at 10:02 AM on June 24, 2013

I also love that EVERYONE is clamoring to get off the sinking ship that is New York in the 60's. Get me outta here! I can't handle it anymore! Rescue me from my drinking problem! Rescue me from my affair!

Of course, bad decisions and 60s-ness means that whoever goes to California is jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
posted by Sara C. at 10:03 AM on June 24, 2013

The Sunkist account is the Miss Porter's of SC&P.
posted by Sara C. at 10:04 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

I also love that EVERYONE is clamoring to get off the sinking ship that is New York in the 60's. Get me outta here! I can't handle it anymore! Rescue me from my drinking problem! Rescue me from my affair!

Yeah, meanwhile Peggy's like, I'm good actually.
posted by sweetkid at 10:06 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Something that has been bothering me for a while (and I'm probably misremembering to some extent anyway) is Ted's affiliation with relgion...wasn't he unreachable for some time because he was on a super serious religious retreat?

He was in Colorado at a religious retreat when the Super Bowl ad needed to be reworked, but I think we're supposed to know or we were eventually told that it was a marriage counseling retreat.
posted by gladly at 10:09 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don Draper was Charlie Buckett?

This makes so much sense.

Don = Charlie
Roger = Willie Wonka
Ted = Augustus Gloop?
Harry = Mike Teevee, for sure.

Man, my brain is having an absolute field day with Don, the 60s as a decade, and "kid in a candy store" motifs.

Don, a kid who blew his whole allowance on Hershey bars and suddenly doesn't feel very well.

Don, caught shoplifting a candy bar.
posted by Sara C. at 10:11 AM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

Pete's office is SO NAUTICAL.
posted by Sara C. at 10:15 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

You gotta love cars to work with GM.

Sure, but surely there's a way to tapdance around that little moment, even if it means eating a little crow. Say you were drunk. Say you weren't ready for the awesome power of that V8 engine. Say your hands shake. Admit that you don't have much experience driving stick, because as a Manhattanite you don't drive often. Whatever it takes.

Ken Cosgrove put his life on the line for Chevy. Pete couldn't even take a goddamn driving lesson.
posted by Sara C. at 10:18 AM on June 24, 2013

Yea but those Chevy guys are all about being "men" and a "real man" should be able to drive standard transmission.
posted by sweetkid at 10:21 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Exactly. Living in NYC is no excuse.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:23 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

So I apparently spoke too soon about pregnant Megan.
posted by Sara C. at 10:26 AM on June 24, 2013

I have to rewatch that scene - so much wierdo double entredre and Pete loudly NOT FITTING INZ
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 AM on June 24, 2013

Bobby is still pretty sure they're negroes.
posted by Sara C. at 10:29 AM on June 24, 2013 [15 favorites]

Oh, sure. I get why the Chevy guys wouldn't get Pete at all.

But, like, did he not PREPARE?

Was he not able to think on his feet for SOMETHING to say?

Like, really, that's it? Out in Detroit for like one day and poof.

I know Pete has no charisma, but surely.
posted by Sara C. at 10:31 AM on June 24, 2013

Bobby is still pretty sure they're negroes.'

HAHAHA. OMG HAHA.
posted by sweetkid at 10:31 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

But, like, did he not PREPARE?

Bob played him, I think that was more the point.

Also his mom is like lost at sea...
posted by sweetkid at 10:32 AM on June 24, 2013

Why do i have " By the sea" from
Swee.y Todd stuck in my head? ( now and then we could do an old maid innn....)
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2013

So Sally just has to hang in the infirmary until Don gets around to picking her up?

This is actually pretty typical for Getting In Trouble At Boarding School. At my school it wasn't the infirmary, there was a special empty dorm room where you were sent if trouble was a-brewing. You could be punished with a spell in there, not unlike an ordinary school's detention or "in-school suspension", but it was also where they put you if you were being suspended for real or "asked to leave", while you waited for your parents to make the drive up to get you. (Nobody ever got expelled. You were Asked To Leave.)

It was an empty room. You stripped your bed and were allowed to bring clothes, toiletries, and school things, but nothing else (no music, no novels, nothing "fun"). You stayed there and went ONLY to class and meals. I think it was at the end of an empty wing of the dorms, or on the wing where some res life staff lived, so nobody to socialize with. It was a little like being grounded. I never actually experienced this, but I was threatened with it once or twice, and I had my share of friends who went through it.
posted by Sara C. at 10:40 AM on June 24, 2013

Bob played him, I think that was more the point.

No, I know. It's just... REALLY?

Maybe I just empathize too much with Kenny. At least Cosgrove got to the tapdancing stage with them.
posted by Sara C. at 10:42 AM on June 24, 2013

Pete's not really the tapdancing sort though.
posted by sweetkid at 10:43 AM on June 24, 2013

Thanks for the explanation, Sara C.
posted by donajo at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2013

yes thanks for the explanation although that sounds truly horrible
posted by sweetkid at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2013

"At least you have decisions."

Well, folks, we have reached full Women's Lib on Peggy. This is her "click" moment. Peg is woman. Hear her roar.
posted by Sara C. at 10:46 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

OTOH that eyepatch is gonna make a bitchin author photo
posted by The Whelk at 10:46 AM on June 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

"At least you have decisions."

"Well, aren't you lucky, to have decisions," is what she said (which I think is better)
posted by sweetkid at 10:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Next season on Mad Men: Who is shitting in everybody's office?

I was reading my "recent activity" last night while trying to avoid this thread, and this sentence jumped out at me. For some reason my takeaway was that somebody shat in someone's office this episode. I thought I totally got spoiled and I was feeling a little miffed about the whole thing. I got off Metafilter for the rest of the evening to avoid any more scatological spoilers.

My money was on Stan shitting in Don's.

Oh, well.
posted by Sara C. at 10:50 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

And finally, I present: Not great, Bob!
posted by Rhomboid at 10:52 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

is it weird to say I almost would have been happy with this as the series finale? Such a perfect, perfect ending.

No, and in fact I felt a sinking sense of regret the whole episode, worried that maybe they really aren't doing one more season and this is it.

Or if it's not, WTF is next season going to be some kind of silly departure season like when Roseanne won the lottery or Angel & Co. had to become Wolfram & Hart?

There better not be a muppet episode. That's all I'm saying.
posted by Sara C. at 10:53 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

There better ~~not~~ be a muppet episode. That's all I'm saying.

Fixed that for me.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:53 AM on June 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

You know why this season of Mad Men fucking WINS AT EVERYTHING?

I started the season hating Megan. If someone had told me back in March that the upshot of the season is that Don and Megan's marriage falls apart and she leaves him, I'd have been cheering.

But now I'm kind of sad about it.

It's also fucking CRAZY how much Don's marriage to Megan parallels my own father's marriage to his second wife, which, like, jeez Matt Weiner, do you and my dad go to the same therapist or something?
posted by Sara C. at 11:00 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Musical episode. Obvs.

Why do i have "By the sea" from "Sweeney Todd" stuck in my head

ha, I ended up with "La Mer / Beyond the Sea" stuck in mine. I keep imagning cravat & open-collar Manolo Charles Boyer-ing it up on the lido deck.
posted by mwhybark at 11:00 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, Pete did prepare somewhat -- he was able to identify the car as the Camaro Z/28, which was unrelated to the account he was representing, which means he must have familiarized himself the whole GM line so that he wouldn't look like an idiot around cars. Sure, he perhaps should have been able to foresee the awkwardness that would result from being expected to drive a stick, but it's not like he walked in there like a total chump.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:00 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

is it weird to say I almost would have been happy with this as the series finale? Such a perfect, perfect ending.

All through the episode and especially at the end, The Fella and I kept turning to each other with giddy delight and saying "I have NO IDEA what's going to happen!" I feel all tilted around, like I've been on a carnival ride.

And then "There's the whole last season to get through. What's going to happen?" "I DON'T KNOW!"

But I still think the perfect last scene for the series finale would be an image of Don and his kids planting a tree. I described the symbolic history of that possible gesture here:

Dick Whitman has been digging holes, digging himself deeper and deeper into despair, for decades. (In "The Hobo Code," he's a weedy little child digging for no reason; his stepmother Abigail hollers at him, "Dick Whitman, you stop digging holes!" In the Korea flashback where we see the real Lt. Don Draper (maybe in "The Mountain King"? I'm not sure), Dick Whitman's assignment is to dig latrines for the camp they're constructing. Don/Dick needs to stop digging holes out of panic and start building something constructive.

For several years, I've been saying that the perfect last scene for "Mad Men" would be Don and the kids (and maybe his wife, if he has one) digging a hole in the front yard of his new house and planting a sapling: setting down roots, digging a hole for a hopeful purpose, planting something that his children will enjoy, and their children, too, and generations to come. It would be a symbol that Don has stopped digging dens and escape hatches and started digging to lay down a foundation. It would show him believing in the future, instead of just living in the present.

More than ever, I think it would be a marvelous image to end the series on. It's a gesture that's laced with hope but not unrealistically so, that speaks of a belief in the future. It's also an image admits finally the importance of putting down roots, something that Dick Whitman has tried to eschew for so long.
posted by Elsa at 11:02 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh no from the T&Lo recap:

Just as Betty walked out once she found out Don wasn’t, in fact, a football star who was angry at his father but instead simply poor white trash,

No, this is wrong, so very wrong. Dammit do people hate Betty so much they just make this stuff up? That is not why Betty left him. She knew he was poor.
posted by sweetkid at 11:03 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Mad Men's first or second episode has Don looking at Volkwagen's "Think Small" ad, in which the car is super tiny in the midst of a lot of white space, and not getting it—that was supposed to be indicative of how behind the times he was back then.

I don't know if we can look to the first few episodes of the series to get a read on how With The Times or Not Getting It Don -- or really any character -- is. The tone swings pretty wildly in the first half of the first season, and there's a lot of cute name-checking of "haha lol these people have no IDEA". Most of it is somewhat in keeping with what the overall focus would be for each character (for instance with Betty it's often parenting stuff, or with Joan it's often the changing landscape of office life, especially women's role in the workplace), but it's rare that those Totally Tone-Deaf moments act as omens for whether the characters "get it" or not in later seasons.

I'm also not sure that any character -- with a few exceptions -- is ever entirely With The Times or Behind The Times. One of my favorite things about the show is that a character like Peggy is obviously set up to be Of Her Time, but she's just as likely to be tone deaf on certain things as other characters are. Meanwhile Harry is probably set up as the least likely to Get It, and yet he's the first one into the pool. And yet in doing so, he comes off as a complete asshole. There's no Right Characters and Wrong Characters dynamic, and it's one of the things that helps Mad Men transcend being just a cutesy period show about how the Bad Old Days were bad and the Good Old Days were good.
posted by Sara C. at 11:07 AM on June 24, 2013

So, did Bob convince Joan to let Roger see Kevin so that he, Bob, could get in good with Roger? Because I just can't see Joan coming to that decision on her own.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:07 AM on June 24, 2013

ugh I am disagreeing so hard with the T&Lo recap. Like no Bob wasn't "right" to humiliate Pete and yeah he is still sort of a sociopath.

And: Margaret Sterling Hargrove is a spoiled little bitch. WTF that's some sort of insight?
posted by sweetkid at 11:09 AM on June 24, 2013

Yeah, I thought there was a lot of gross misogyny in their recap. Plus I'm not too fond of their penchant for calling Joan a fruit fly, but I guess it could be worse. At least they're not calling her a fag hag?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:14 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

The scene with Roger, Joan and Bob felt to me like Joan was consciously inviting him into two things: her son's life, and an awareness of Bob's homosexuality (I'm guessing Bob told her about his talking-to from jealous Roger). Maybe that's me just wanting that to be the case, but that's how I read it.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 11:18 AM on June 24, 2013

mwhybark: "Musical episode. Obvs."

Actually, it will be set on the Titanic.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:19 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I had sorta assumed that house was out in the midwest somewhere, but I don't know if that was ever actually established...

It's been established a few times that Don is from Pennsylvania. That said, PA is a big state, and it straddles a lot of US regions. You've got the Philadelphia area, which is about an hour and change drive from NYC and is culturally part of the same East Coast sphere (which is where Betty grew up, and damn this show is like a fucking ad from the Pennsylvania Tourist Council). You've got the southwestern part that is close to Appalachia -- in fact, doesn't the Mason Dixon line divide western PA, West Virginia, and Maryland? Then you've got the northwestern Rust Belt parts that are close to Cleveland and Akron.

My guess based on that last shot is that Don is from the more midwestern Rust Belt part, though certain aspects of the flashbacks over the years have seemed more Hillbilly/"Pennsyltucky".
posted by Sara C. at 11:23 AM on June 24, 2013

Also, I have to say that I totally sympathized with Sally sleeping in the back of the car for what must have been a hell of a long drive out to fucking goddamn Pittsburgh. It takes SO FUCKING LONG to drive through Pennsylvania. That drive is the worst. I can see Bobby looking out the window and saying, "We're STILL in Pennsylvania? Just how big IS this dumb state, anyway? Are we THERE YET?" Especially being an east coast kid, where you can cross four or five states in a couple hours on 95.
posted by Sara C. at 11:26 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

My guess based on that last shot is that Don is from the more midwestern Rust Belt part, though certain aspects of the flashbacks over the years have seemed more Hillbilly/"Pennsyltucky".

Any of which have to be what, two or three hundred miles from Miss Porter's? That's quite a detour from Farmington CT.
posted by ambrosia at 11:26 AM on June 24, 2013

According to Wikipedia, which we all know is never wrong, Dick Whitman was born in Illinois and raised in the "coal country" of Pennsylvania.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:28 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, unless they're trying to imply that Don's childhood took place in Allentown or Wilkes-Barre or something, it would have been quite a drive. Definitely not something that would be on the way home for Thanksgiving from Miss Porters and/or Westchester. I think you can do it in a day, but it's not like the kids are going to think they're headed back to Manhattan from Connecticut.

My takeaway was that Don was like, "screw Thanksgiving, guys, we're going on a trip!" and not that they stopped there on the way home.
posted by Sara C. at 11:29 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

It takes SO FUCKING LONG to drive through Pennsylvania.

No kidding Pennsylvania is so huge.
posted by sweetkid at 11:29 AM on June 24, 2013

My takeaway was that Don was like, "screw Thanksgiving, guys, we're going on a trip!" and not that they stopped there on the way home.

I imagine that Thanksgiving with Megan was off. Even if she came back, I wouldn't be excited about having my "screwed up kids" over for a nice family meal with the wife who is probably leaving me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

The weird thing is that it's actually not so huge compared to, say, the western states. But it feels really gigantic compared to New Jersey and Connecticut and places like that.
posted by Sara C. at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2013

Yeah, PhoB, that was my takeaway.
posted by Sara C. at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2013

FWIW though he could have grown up around Scranton which is closer to the NY/East Coast type of thing than you'd think, and yet has a totally different cultural outlook that is definitely more rural and midwestern.

I once got stuck driving to Scranton from New York on short notice, and it was like some kind of fold in the universe. You leave the city, drive through some Jersey, and then suddenly you're in the middle of nowhere and you pop out the other side in the midwest. Despite driving for maybe 3-4 hours.

Hershey is just east of Harrisburg. Bobby is asking Don about Hershey, PA, and whether they named the chocolate after the town or vice versa, so maybe they just passed through there or are headed there or Bobby saw it on a freeway exit sign. On the other hand, maybe they really are in Erie or something and just happened to be talking about the whole Hershey thing.
posted by Sara C. at 11:36 AM on June 24, 2013

I feel like they wouldn't introduce that [Ted's religion thing] unless it had some bearing on his decisions, etc.

I think it did have some bearing on Ted's decisions, though. It's clear that Ted feels that he's made a big mistake with Peggy, and that if he doesn't take drastic action, he's going to ruin his family. Ted's goal in this situation is to do right by his family. There are also a lot of temptation themes in all his interactions with Peggy this season.

Compare that with Don's usual trajectory in affairs, where his goal is to do whatever works for him and neither morality nor other people ever come into it. I don't know that we can chalk the entire difference up to religion (though I think it's telling in this episode that Don punches out a preacher), but clearly Ted going on a religious retreat to heal his marriage early in the season is an important distinction between the two men and a foreshadowing of Ted's choices in the Peggy situation.
posted by Sara C. at 11:45 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, Millennium Biltmore! Now and forever, the foyer of GM.

What was the line? "It's like Detroit with palm trees."
posted by Sys Rq at 11:49 AM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

the ambiguity sometimes got a little annoying, if not downright insulting at times

Proof, once and for all, that Tom & Lorenzo do not know what the phrase "On The Nose" means. It is impossible for a work to be both ambiguous and on the nose at the same time. The two terms are antonyms. Stop saying ON THE NOSE!!!!!! every time the writers throw us a bone with a little bit of theme, guys. Seriously, just stop. And if you can't, at least stop trying to have your cake and eat it too by complaining that the show is "too ambiguous".
posted by Sara C. at 11:51 AM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Pennsylvania's coal region is the northeast, the part that's close to NYC. Lots of it is also super-rural and was likely more so 50+ years ago. Very likely that's where Don grew up, as opposed to Pittsburgh.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:52 AM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I assumed from Bobby's line about Hershey, PA that that's where they were, or where they were going, or whatever. Maybe they went to Hershey Park to recapture the Disneyland/whorehouse Hershey Bar happiness?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:00 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Thanks, Chrysostom. I always assumed it would be on the opposite end of the state, down by West Virginia because Appalachia is also full of coal mines. Like, Coal Miner's Daughter and such, right?
posted by Sara C. at 12:17 PM on June 24, 2013

Sara C.: "Oh, sure. I get why the Chevy guys wouldn't get Pete at all.
But, like, did he not PREPARE?
Was he not able to think on his feet for SOMETHING to say?
Like, really, that's it? Out in Detroit for like one day and poof.
I know Pete has no charisma, but surely."

Pete's NEVER been good at any of this stuff, which is why he made that deal with Bob; so Bob would have his back. And Pete was ALWAYS a terrible driver, which was why he hated it. So yes, Bob was there first, and he was supposed to be directing Pete into being the main account guy, but before that cemented you had this scene.

Pete was angry with Bob, sniped at him in front of Chevy, and the moment turned spectacularly against him. Even his strategic plans fail because of who he is in the moment...
posted by stratastar at 12:24 PM on June 24, 2013

By the way, it now occurs to me that maybe Pete really is going to California to be the accounts man on Sunkist, but while watching that scene with Trudy I was almost positive he was lying. I can't really say why I thought that, and it could just be that this is completely extraneous information and nothing to do with his whole story this episode at all. Like, maybe there was a throwaway line somewhere else that established this, and it got cut. But the whole scene between Pete, Trudy, and Tammy I just thought, "Oh no, now Pete is the big liar running away from everything..."

There's also an interesting triad between Ted, Don, and Pete and their reactions to moving to California and family. (Whether Pete is really going to California or not.)

Don: I originally wanted to move to California to escape my complicated kids, but then I realized it was time to stop bullshitting and be the kind of father they need.

Ted: I want to move my family to California so that I can escape temptation and do right by them.

Pete: I am moving to California to find freedom, including freedom from my family.
posted by Sara C. at 12:25 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Don's natural accent has always read rural Pennsylvania to me.

And yeah, I've driven from Western New York to Florida, and crossing PA easily feels like the longest leg of the trip.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:31 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I was wondering the whole time who the Account man on Sunkist was going to be. They were playing so much creative musical chairs but hadn't discussed Accounts at all.

A creative-only outpost in CA sounds cute and all but would never work. And then it seemed like out of nowhere Pete was going. Pete and Ted would be a good team though.

Also: I was totally, but pleasantly, surprised by Don's firing. Finally some consequences for his horrifically bad/strange/irresponsible behavior lately. And we saw no prior discussion, and they were all united. Excellent.
posted by sweetkid at 12:32 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Does anybody think it's fascinating that Burt Cooper didn't care to fire Don when he was revealed to be a liar by Pete back in Season 1, but did fire Don when Don started telling the truth?

I mean, I know that obviously what Don did in the Hershey meeting was beyond the pale, but that's sort of the point. The worst thing you can do in the advertising world of Mad Men is to tell the truth. You can't sell the truth. The truth is invariably assumed to be ugly and something we don't talk about in front of clients.

I like what somebody said upthread about this episode being very Seventies and all about how redemption comes through truth. I like the idea that the late Sixties was all about fighting through the drama of how to tell the truth. Like, you can kinda sorta see a Norman Lear tinged light at the end of the tunnel of 1968. And that light is breathed into being by the characters, actually living through it all.

I think a lot about how innovative people (especially within the media) figure out what the Next Thing is. I think this episode is a little about that. Interestingly, the show has never shown us characters thinking up the Next Big Ideas of the 60s -- an era that was full of big new ideas and which still fascinates us because of that -- but has suddenly decided to show the birth pangs of the Next Thing of the 70s.
posted by Sara C. at 12:33 PM on June 24, 2013 [6 favorites]

Another thought:

Every meeting Don has shat on this season, have all of them been by telling the truth?

- Sheraton: Don presents an ad that basically says "Run away to Hawaii and kill yourself, you know you want to!"

- Hershey: You want to know about childhood memories of your product? I'M THE ORPHAN SON OF A WHORE AND GOT PAID IN CANDY TO STEAL FROM JOHNS.

- Chevy dinner meeting: Hey everybody, I know this kid who's totes about to go die in Vietnam! But nah, let's all just talk about how awesome cars are, it's cool.

- Margarine is basically a lie, as a product. No pitch meeting there, though.

I also feel like there's a truth angle about the whole Jaguar thing, but that one's so big it's hard to put a finger on how it fits exactly.

What about Carnation Instant Breakfast? Most of my takeaway from that scene was about California Fascists, so I don't remember the upshot of what SC&P's pitch was like or anything Don said in the meeting.
posted by Sara C. at 12:42 PM on June 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

That is really excellent insight Sara C. You get a cookie.
posted by sweetkid at 12:45 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I also feel like "I love puppies!" has to fit in there somewhere.

Did anybody else notice that Don said "I love Hershey!" in exactly the same tone that he said "I love puppies!" in the Jaguar meeting?
posted by Sara C. at 12:45 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I also feel like "I love puppies!" has to fit in there somewhere.

Did anybody else notice that Don said "I love Hershey!" in exactly the same tone that he said "I love puppies!" in the Jaguar meeting?

YES YES I DID YES. I knew that was going to come up again in some weird way.
posted by sweetkid at 12:46 PM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think if Don's revelation had somehow landed them the Hershey account he wouldn't have been fired. Bert didn't care about Don being a liar because he was basically printing the firm money back then. But your point is well-taken and I'm glad that the reason Don wrecked this meeting was due to compulsive truth-telling instead of just being drunk or having an off pitch.

The nail in the coffin (ok, one of the nails) had to be the fact that first he reeled them in and only then threw them away. Don knows everyone is wary of him lately, that his pitches have been missing, that they think he's losing his touch/getting too drunk, etc. So he basically goes "Oh yeah? Watch this!" and old Don is back and only when the other partners are in post-meeting glow/banter does he stop them with "Ok, we can go with that whole currency of affection thing I just sold you OR how about this..."
posted by mikepop at 12:48 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Bert didn't care about Don being a liar because he was basically printing the firm money back then.

Yeah I agree with this. Also Pete was the one who brought the "lying" details, and back then he was a jr account guy they were mostly keeping around because he was a Dyckman. Things have changed and it wasn't only Bert's decision this time.
posted by sweetkid at 12:57 PM on June 24, 2013

old Don is back

Except that Old Don so obviously isn't back. The Hershey pitch is just a tired rehash of every 50s-esque nostalgic domesticity lie they've ever done. It's the most lying lie of all. It's sweet treacly chocolate-colored shit, and everybody in the room knows it. It's a cargo cult version of the Carousel pitch, and it's obvious that SC&P's pretend airport isn't going to bring in any planes.
posted by Sara C. at 1:00 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Did anybody else notice that Don said "I love Hershey!" in exactly the same tone that he said "I love puppies!" in the Jaguar meeting?

In thread related to that episode I talked about how that tone possibly represented the Unburdened Don.
posted by mikepop at 1:00 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

It's a cargo cult version of the Carousel pitch

Ha, very much this. But he is "back" in the sense that they Hershey reps seem to be buying it, or at least not rejecting it.
posted by mikepop at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2013

Well, folks, we have reached full Women's Lib on Peggy. This is her "click" moment. Peg is woman. Hear her roar.

I've seen that coming ever since she told Abe she didn't have much more freedom than Negros.
posted by dry white toast at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, by no means did I think that the only difference is lying vs. truth. There are obviously tons of story and character reasons that this went down now and not eight years ago.

But it's interesting that the writers had Don's firing hinge on him finally telling the truth, and in fact coming after a long string of truth-telling that loses the company money. I mean, they could have played it any way. They could have had him be too drunk to do the meeting. They could have had him not prepare anything, or not show up, or shit on it in some other way to clearly sabotage Ted out of spite.

But instead, he sabotages both the Hershey account and his own career by telling the truth.

I joke about the writers making sloppy choices to get everybody yelling in the conference room, but when they're good, they are GOOD.
posted by Sara C. at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

It wasn't really Unburdened Don, though, it was a big clue into where the rest of the episode was going to go. If anything it was Very Honest Don, maybe - it was a sudden sharp glimpse into some sort of truthful moment for Don.
posted by sweetkid at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

During Don's initial pitch to Hershey, before the revelations about the bordello, I kept thinking "It's possible this actually happened to Don once, but even if it's true, it isn't the truth." It's completely possible that Archibald Whitman did take Dick to the drugstore and let him choose a Hershey bar and tousled his hair, because even a terrible parent can give you a perfect moment. (Indeed, that's why our childhood pain is so hard to shake off well into adulthood: because it's wound up inextricably with the love that we want to feel, that we do feel, even for an abusive or negligent or absent or unkind parent.)

But even if Archie did ever buy Dick a chocolate bar, we already know that Hershey bar isn't the candy Don/Dick associates with his father. In "Three Sundays," when Bobby asks Don about his father, one of the few memories Don shares is that of Archie's violet candies (presumably C. Howard's Violet Candies). Don gives a packet of them to Peggy, and their importance was somehow (offscreen) conveyed so strongly that she keeps them as a lucky charm.

Hershey bars might truly be Don's memory of all-too-rare childhood sweetness, but the violet candies --- probably used to cover the liquor on Archie's breath --- are the candy he remembers when he thinks of his father.
posted by Elsa at 1:05 PM on June 24, 2013 [11 favorites]

But he is "back" in the sense that they Hershey reps seem to be buying it

I actually don't agree. In the scene he doesn't seem that excited about it, and this sort of advertising is what every other brand is doing and probably not worth materializing a multi-million dollar campaign over.

If I'm going from "we don't even need to advertise" to "SPEND ALL THE MONEYS", I'm going to want to see something fucking groundbreaking. And keep in mind this is a bake-off with the top 30 agencies. Surely somebody's going to have something better than "people are nostaglic".
posted by Sara C. at 1:07 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Apologies if someone linked to this upthread (long thread is breaking my phone), but Weiner doesn't sound like Don is fired (mobile link):

Q.

Is Don’s marriage to Megan over? Has he lost his job at the agency?

A.

No. I think his job is what it is. It’s a leave of absence. It looks bad. But there has to be some punishment for the way he behaved. Firing their most important client, forcing them into a merger and then waging war on his partner, and the destructive swath that he cut through the agency, killing the public offering and everything else, that cannot go without punishment. The Hershey’s meeting has little do with it. You have to be way, way more intrinsic than Don was this season to get away with that kind of stuff.

(You may insert your own Showrunners Are Liars caveats.)
posted by purpleclover at 1:13 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

ugh, I think it would be better if Weiner left it ambiguous. I like the idea that Don is potentially Freddy Rumsen fired, even though I would want him to eventually go back. I want him to THINK he is Freddy Rumsen fired.
posted by sweetkid at 1:16 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm trying to compile a list Campbells exceptionally waspy old fashioned phrases like hells bells and howdy dooty army ~ anyone got more?
posted by The Whelk at 1:19 PM on June 24, 2013

Imagine, a thing like that!
(Howdy Doody army)
posted by entropicamericana at 1:21 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

HOWDY DOODY CIRCUS ARMY

and that's not WASP, that's just Pete.
posted by sweetkid at 1:23 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm trying to compile a list Campbells exceptionally waspy old fashioned phrases like hells bells and howdy dooty army ~ anyone got more?

Pete Campbell and my late father shared a good portion of their lexicon, so I'm confident I can help you out with that at the meet-up. Or, honestly, once I get a drink in me, I'll just start weaving them into my own chitchat.

Barring that, I'll see what I can drum up in-thread once I get home. Or, more realistically, tomorrow.
posted by Elsa at 1:24 PM on June 24, 2013

Hm, in light of that Matt Weiner thing -- and ugh this is why I never read those -- I wonder if next season is going to be all about Don trying to get his career back.

Hopefully done a lot more masterfully than I'm imagining.

Then again, whoever mentioned upthread that Don probably doesn't strictly have to work is at least somewhat right. I mean, his new divorce is probably going to be very expensive, and he has to put his kids through college. But aside from the fact that the ad agency is the story engine of the show, he could walk away and never look back.
posted by Sara C. at 1:26 PM on June 24, 2013

Musical episode. Obvs.

Wait, no-one remembers this? (Oh god early Drapers, you adorable kids, what happened to you?)
posted by fight or flight at 1:30 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I still kind of wish when he left the apartment building to get drunk after Sally caught him with Sylvia, we just didn't see him again until next season. The 'leave of absence' convo could have happened then, too. In the meantime we could have spent a few eps with other characters and just not really know what happened to Don.
posted by sweetkid at 1:32 PM on June 24, 2013

Pete is very much just like my father's family. I'm a little shocked whenever Pete says "What?" as that was always a Big Deal no-no -- it should be I beg your pardon.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:34 PM on June 24, 2013

Musical episode. Obvs.

The musical episode is "My Old Kentucky Home," with Roger putting on a minstrel show, Paul and his drug-dealer friend singing "Hello, My Baby," "Joan playing "Ma Vie en Rose" on the accordion, and Pete and Trudy dancing a very accomplished and showy Charleston that cleared the dance floor.
posted by Elsa at 1:35 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think the moment that broke my heart (for good) this episode was seeing Pete saying goodbye to his sleeping daughter. The way this show deals with the handing down of pain, of loss, is just astonishing.
posted by fight or flight at 1:43 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Ummmm I had never seen that, and I have to say:

- Whoa, who guessed Henry Francis was a bass? Or that Ken Cosgrove was a soprano?

- Rich Sommer, you hot slut.

- Kiernan Shipka clearly has bigger balls than January Jones.

- Is that Carla out of costume?

- This thing is really long.

- Hildy has the song so down pat that I'm pretty sure she was once in a production of Bye Bye Birdie.

A random thought. So, I once worked on a show a couple studios down from Boardwalk Empire. And I started to notice how many Boardwalk crew members were kind of rocking a Jazz Age look. I saw a lot of newsboy caps, a lot of suspenders and bow ties. An unusual amount of tweed considering that, for most TV crew members, working on a show involves hard physical work. I started to wonder if, working on a period show, and living in that world 70-80 hours a week, you just started to seep into the period. Suddenly it seems perfectly normal to wear a bow tie and suspenders to your job as an AD on a TV show. Or you go hat shopping, and yeah, this snappy Panama number looks totally normal and not a self-conscious style choice at all. It's just... a hat, right?

Clearly this must have just been a fluke, because none of the Mad Men crew members look like the 60s is seeping into their everyday clothing choices, at all. It's a sea of t-shirts and fleeces except for the costumed actors.
posted by Sara C. at 1:45 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Well, I'd seen it before but my takeaways were a little different:

Whoa, who guessed Henry Francis was a bass?

The main thing I thought was whoa Henry Francis is hot. Silver Fox all over the shop.

- Rich Sommer, you hot slut.

Agreed

Kiernan Shipka clearly has bigger balls than January Jones

Eh, I think January is super shy and was cute with Jon being ridiculous behind her. She probably wanted to be in it but not have some big focus on her. She seems shy to me.

Kiernan's lisp though OMG

Is that Carla out of costume?

Yes. I think it would have been sort of ick to have her be in a maid's costume in this video. Different context than January in the dress and gloves, for example.
posted by sweetkid at 1:50 PM on June 24, 2013

Didn't Pete break out a "Jumping Jehoshaphat" one time?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:51 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Watching the Bye Bye Birdie video again made me miss Paul Kinsey anew. I wonder what he's doing at the end of this season.
posted by fight or flight at 1:56 PM on June 24, 2013

Also, someone in the Mad Men subreddit pointed out Peggy's Teggy dress.
posted by fight or flight at 1:58 PM on June 24, 2013

oh that is a good catch.
posted by sweetkid at 1:59 PM on June 24, 2013

Watching the Bye Bye Birdie video again made me miss Paul Kinsey anew.

Me too, he's such a ham.
posted by sweetkid at 2:00 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I wonder if he's still with Hare Krishna. Shine on, you crazy bald diamond!

While I'm trawling the Mad Men subreddit, here is a nice comparison between the final shots of Don and his family at the end of the first episode in season one and that shot of Pete and Tammy from this last episode.
posted by fight or flight at 2:03 PM on June 24, 2013

Oh god Pete and Tammy is so heartbreaking though. "I won't wake her." Oh Pete.

I think this show would be easier on me if I just thought he was a SUPERVILLAIN like so many seem to.
posted by sweetkid at 2:05 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete is very much just like my father's family. I'm a little shocked whenever Pete says "What?" as that was always a Big Deal no-no -- it should be I beg your pardon.

Apparently, that's a new-money vs, old-money thing. The newly rich tried to absorb a lot of the etiquette of the old rich, but exaggerated it and got some of it wrong. I can't find an American example of it, but here's a description of its usage in English royalty that identified "pardon" as being middle class and gauche:

And when asking someone to repeat a question, middle-class Pardon? is frowned upon, in favor of a simple What? All of this might seem extremely puzzling to outsiders, but these class-based shibboleths do actually exist in British society (even if Carole's alleged gaffes might have been embellished as tabloid fodder).
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 2:09 PM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think it would have been sort of ick to have her be in a maid's costume in this video.

Usually they shoot these things casually around the set on whatever day. It probably wasn't a deliberate choice, though it might have been the actress' choice to do it before she hit the makeup chair. Certainly nobody was "directing" this telling people how big a role to have, what exactly to do, what to wear, etc.

It's pretty obvious that somebody just set up a karaoke booth with a camera and told everyone to let fly in there whenever they got a spare minute.

(My reason for "Kiernan Shipka has bigger balls..." was that she was singing while Jones was lip synching. Which, seriously, everyone else was singing and aside from Hildy most of them suck, too. Poor Bobby can't even read the karaoke machine, and he's singing. The grips and makeup artists and PAs are singing. People are wearing ridiculous wigs. Just sing, January. Christ.)
posted by Sara C. at 2:28 PM on June 24, 2013

U vs non-U
posted by Chrysostom at 2:29 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

U vs non-U

Yep that's it. I was also thinking of the example of lower class people saying things like "vehicles" instead of cars on like Judge Judy or whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 2:33 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

There were a whole bunch of people lip syncing in that video.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:40 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

A few days ago I was watching early episodes, and the one in which Sally -- who has been isn't-it-cute making drinks for people earlier -- is asleep on a couch in the office and there's an empty glass on its side on the floor beside her, which Joan and Co. find unremarkable. I wondered then if Sally was going to have an alcohol issue.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:42 PM on June 24, 2013

FWIW I got constant corrections on "Hey!" and "Huh?" as a kid. My background is newly/striving middle class, very similar to the class level of the Don Draper family of the first season.

The interesting thing is that my father's parents, who are the much more striving ones, were obsessed about this (and LOTS of other class markers, see also the mason jar derail in the Paula Deen thread), whereas my mother's parents, who were more comfortably middle class, never said a word to me about proper diction.
posted by Sara C. at 3:11 PM on June 24, 2013

I was also thinking of the example of lower class people saying things like "vehicles" instead of cars on like Judge Judy or whatever.

Oh god my mother does this constantly and it drives me crazy and now I know why. And, connected to that, now I guess I know I'm a classist asshole judging my mom for "utilize" and "gifted me with".
posted by Sara C. at 3:13 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also Stephen Fry has a bunch of these in one of his books about English boarding schools. Like you're supposed to call it a "glass", not a mirror. And a "wireless", not a radio.
posted by Sara C. at 3:13 PM on June 24, 2013

Oh god my mother does this constantly and it drives me crazy and now I know why. And, connected to that, now I guess I know I'm a classist asshole judging my mom for "utilize" and "gifted me with".

Ugh utilize is the worst
posted by sweetkid at 3:19 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think the biggest misconception Americans have about the British is that the upper crust are snobs. In fact they very rarely are, because they're totally secure about their rank. The biggest snobs are the grittily upwardly-mobile middle-middle class (Keeping Up Appearences is about nothing but this) and practically anyone in a service job. Particularly waiters in forgettable outying restaurants with menus that read like a 1950s novel's idea of Fine Dining.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:20 PM on June 24, 2013

I wonder if next season is going to be all about Don trying to get his career back.

I think the central question of next season is going to be, does Don want his career back?

Over the course of the show, we've gone from Don Draper being Dick Whitman's emancipation to Don Draper being his prison. The next logical step for his character is to explore the question, can Dick Whitman now be Don Draper's emancipation?
posted by dry white toast at 3:27 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

can Dick Whitman now be Don Draper's emancipation?

It's pretty clear that he only really felt free when he was with Anna; the only person who really knew him. And it seems that his ability to be truthful with Megan was liberating for him, at least at first.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:30 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

BTW did anyone else see a parallel between Don seizing Stan's idea/opportunity and Megan having done the same with her actress friend's for the commercial role?
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:36 PM on June 24, 2013

It's pretty clear that he only really felt free when he was with Anna; the only person who really knew him. And it seems that his ability to be truthful with Megan was liberating for him, at least at first.

Here here. I've said this about Anna over and over again. Anna "knew everything about him, and still loved him". I think the difference was that Megan didn't see his duality, like Anna did. She just filed Dick away as part of his past. He's been adrift since Anna died.

I think we were supposed to think that Megan could be his new Anna. And he did too. But the message we get now is that the only one who can replace Anna is Sally.
posted by dry white toast at 3:36 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

No peggy
posted by sweetkid at 4:06 PM on June 24, 2013

I think it's both. Peggy at work and Sally at home. He has to stop thinking of all women as the same woman. I think he's finally getting that sense, especially as he sees Sally as becoming a fully-functioning person that needs her father to not just pass on his bad habits.

The Peggy thing is going to be trickier, since there's obviously the power issue. I wonder if, when he goes back to SC&P eventually, this will be somehow negated. If the creative director role stays empty, could Peggy be allowed to fill that position while he's gone? And when he gets back, he'll have to deal with her being his equal.
posted by crossoverman at 4:53 PM on June 24, 2013

If the creative director role stays empty, could Peggy be allowed to fill that position while he's gone?

It's a nice thought, but she's WAY too junior for that. Though I liked Ted's idea of supervising her from California. On the other hand, what a goddamn mess that's going to be, and also Duck was showing up with some pasty-faced fogey of a grownup who is clearly meant to be somebody's new boss, so probably not.
posted by Sara C. at 5:24 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure that she IS way too junior for that. She was Copy Chief at CGC, and I'm assuming she kept that job title at SC&P, which would make her senior over Ginsberg and the freelancers. Ted is saying he's going to keep supervising her, but I don't imagine that he'll actually be interfering much given the current state of their relationship. This is actually the kind of vacancy that could easily catapult Peggy to a position of power at the firm, and I don't think she's going to get ahead in any other way, even this late into the 60s.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:30 PM on June 24, 2013

I think Peggy suddenly being Ted/Don level would just be fan wish fulfillment like "Joan's a partner!" was (to me). People love it but it's not that realistic.
posted by sweetkid at 5:39 PM on June 24, 2013

1969 will be her tenth year at the agency. How long would she have to be there to be considered for the role of creative director? Or the East Coast creative director?

I mean, I understand the argument against - it seems too much like dramatic wish-fulfillment, especially as her rise from Don's secretary to ~~Coffee~~ Copy Chief has been pretty meteoric.

Or are we thinking she's unlikely to get it because she's a woman?
posted by crossoverman at 5:43 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't think it would be at all sudden. She's moved her way up the ranks over the course of a decade and there's currently no one who is actually likely to supervise her. And, hell, such vacancies were how women ended up in business during World War II. There's no reason why it couldn't happen in 1969.

And it certainly seems to be what Weiner is trying to signal, what with her in Don's chair, in Don's office, in those fantastic pants.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:45 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

I agree with crossoverman. Peggy joined the firm in March 1960, and it's been eight years. In March 1960 how long had Don Draper been at the firm? Not more than eight or nine years, tops, given his stint in Korea then at the fur company before bamboozling Roger into a job at Sterling Cooper.
posted by ambrosia at 5:48 PM on June 24, 2013

Yeah, I was trying to figure out the math on Don's tenure at SC, too. The flashbacks in Waldorf Stories were early 50ish, so less than a decade, probably.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:51 PM on June 24, 2013

I make myself crazy sometimes trying to figure out the math, and I probably shouldn't. For example, Betty. Per wikipedia, Betty was born in 1932, graduated from Bryn Mawr, modeled in Italy and then Manhattan, where she met Don at the fur company, and married him in 1953. She did all that by 21? It doesn't quite add up.
posted by ambrosia at 6:00 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Was Don married to Bets when he was hired at Sterling Cooper? They'd already met, since she was in the fur ads that he showed Roger, and I know they got married pretty quick. That could put Don at the agency for, say, six or seven years before he became creative director.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:03 PM on June 24, 2013

yea the Betty timeline is hard to make work.
posted by sweetkid at 6:04 PM on June 24, 2013

Linked from the EM interview above: Peggy retrospective video
posted by polymath at 6:05 PM on June 24, 2013

The Don versus Dick dates are impossible to make work, so...

Feels like Don can't have been at Sterling Cooper much earlier than 1953. So, at most, seven years to Creative Director. And I feel like with Don on a leave of absence, that's reason enough to slot her in there. I think the other guy with Duck is a red herring. Or, at least, he'll start and will be gone by the time we rejoin the show in...

February 1969. I dunno why, just sounds good.
posted by crossoverman at 6:08 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

She was Copy Chief at CGC, and I'm assuming she kept that job title at SC&P, which would make her senior over Ginsberg and the freelancers.

Just because you're senior over some people doesn't mean you're ready to get the bump up the ladder when the guy above you goes.

Peggy has been working at an ad agency for eight years now. She has been a copywriter for seven. She's been Copy Chief for about two years.

Your guess is as good as mine as whether seven years is enough to become creative director at a top-30 ad agency. However, her part in the aspirin ad in the last episode implies to me that, tenure aside, she's not ready.

I personally think the math is a little bit fudged on Don. I think the show made certain claims about him that, as the series became more successful and we needed to know more about his past and the inner workings of an ad agency, became kind of unsupportable. So they just sort of hand-waved over the whole thing.

It's like the reverse of the Star Trek problem, where you've got people going decades without a promotion. Don can't have been creative director for more than a year or so at the beginning of the series, and he must have moved up suspiciously quickly.
posted by Sara C. at 6:10 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Just because you're senior over some people doesn't mean you're ready to get the bump up the ladder when the guy above you goes.

She's the next most senior employee in the department below Don and Ted, who are not likely to stand in her way (if anything, I imagine that Ted would be all for her moving up to Creative Director). And that's really it--we're not saying she's going to be a partner, but creative director might be believable. She's clearly getting ready to take over Don's accounts. She wouldn't move up by default, but she could easily distinguish herself, particularly as we're seeing her in a situation--without a mentor or a boss--which we haven't before.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:16 PM on June 24, 2013

Your guess is as good as mine as whether seven years is enough to become creative director at a top-30 ad agency. However, her part in the aspirin ad in the last episode implies to me that, tenure aside, she's not ready

Yep, not ready. Also like creative director in itself is not a big deal title. Most creatives get that title pretty easily after x number of years. But if we're talking about her being senior partner...

I think Peggy could jump there if she were proven super super competent and charismatic with clients (which she's not) or got a major win no one was expecting (which she could). Don jumped the line because he's great with clients and gets big wins.

I'm not saying the show won't do it, I'm saying it doesn't fit how people get up the ladder in real life necessarily. If it did most people I've been working with would be Ruler of Everything.
posted by sweetkid at 6:16 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Don's rise is paralleled with Bob's?

I mean, Bob Benson went from baby-faced junior accounts guy who was excited to even be sent on the Manischewitz meeting to basically dominating Chevy in the course of six months.
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 PM on June 24, 2013

But if we're talking about her being senior partner...

We're not. We're talking about her being creative director.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:18 PM on June 24, 2013

She's the next most senior employee in the department below Don and Ted

Yeah, but to repeat myself from a post that probably still has an Edit window going, just because you're the most senior doesn't mean you get the bump. SC&P are free to go outside the company to hire a new creative director. You have to actually be ready, on your own merit. This isn't Downton Abbey, where a well-timed ship sinking is enough to make you an Earl.
posted by Sara C. at 6:19 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think whatever you mean by "creative director" is different in the context of the show than it is in real life advertising. In real life advertising, she would be associate creative director, no problem.
posted by sweetkid at 6:19 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Okay, well, from a character development perspective, I think that final scene between Stan and Peggy suggested that she's ready to take that position, having learned from her experience with Ted and realized that some guy isn't going to hand her the job (or a Clio, or whatever) on a platter.

I think whatever you mean by "creative director" is different in the context of the show than it is in real life advertising. In real life advertising, she would be associate creative director, no problem.

My question is whether she will be in an equivalent position to Don at the start of the series--supervising other creatives, essentially heading the department even though there are other employees and partners who may be over her (Bert Cooper was a creative, wasn't he?). I don't think she'll be made partner. But I think she'll be de facto leader of the creative department.

In fact, I think next season could be very interesting if we see that come to fruition--Peggy in that position and doing well. And then Don comes back, clean and sober. We see them interact as creative equals within the agency. Would be fascinating, and ripe for conflict.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:28 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about her becoming a partner. That never entered my head. The Joan situation was unique. Peggy becoming partner isn't on the cards.

But Creative Director SC&P (East Coast) seems reasonable to me. Especially if she gets to keep Don's office.
posted by crossoverman at 6:29 PM on June 24, 2013

Especially if she gets to keep Don's office.

Ooh, imagine the turf war. Even though Don hasn't been fired, I can imagine Peggy setting up camp there, especially since she's in the crappy column office. And Don maybe not being so cool with that when he comes back.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:31 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I can't say I really see Don co-existing as equals with anyone, even sober. That's why I think it's an open question whether he comes back. Maybe he decides he can't sell pabulum any more.
posted by dry white toast at 6:32 PM on June 24, 2013

I was doing the dishes earlier tonight, thinking about this episode, and I flashed on something that struck me in the Hershey pitch scene. Before Don did his bizarro-world honesty speech, he looked directly at Ted and saw how utterly lost he was, and then he looked at him again after he was finished. It's as if he suddenly realized that Ted would become Don if he stayed in New York - and maybe that thought (and/or looking down at his shaking hands) was the final straw, the push he needed to come clean, literally and figuratively. It was too late for Don to repair anything, but not so for Ted, and he knew that. Maybe threw himself under the bus to save him (and, ultimately, himself).

Just a thought.
posted by flyingsquirrel at 6:34 PM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think that final scene between Stan and Peggy suggested that she's ready to take that position, having learned from her experience with Ted and realized that some guy isn't going to hand her the job (or a Clio, or whatever) on a platter.

I agree that, as a person, she is probably emotionally up to the task. But the last episode showed that not only is she not ready to make the tough decisions that would be involved as creative director, she's only vaguely aware that there are decisions to be made. The fact that it didn't even occur to her that there would be production costs to hiring umpteen actors for the aspirin commercial that was only budgeted at like $15K, and that Ted actively tried to protect her from any knowledge that this conversation was even happening, does not bode well for a creative department run by Peggy Olson.

I mean, what's she going to do when the grownups are out of the picture and she decides she wants a cast of 30 for this margarine ad? Who's going to be looking at the budget then? Those are the kinds of decisions that separate a department head position generally filled (on this show anyway) by a partner, and where Peggy has been demonstrated to be.

Peggy taking Don's job is like Megan winning an Oscar next year.
posted by Sara C. at 6:35 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think you're misreading the misstep that Peggy made with the aspirin ad. It doesn't seem to me that this was a general problem with her behavior, but rather a one-off due to her being completely head over heels with Ted. I find it difficult to imagine her not acting like a grown-up in the position she's in now, having learned, rather painfully, the end result of such naivety (and what's up with implying she's not an adult because she made one mistake? Don's made many more childish mistakes in his tenure; even Joan, who pulled them back at the aspirin ad, has fumbled, too). That Ted actively led her astray is significant, too. Now Peggy will be in a position to decide these things on her own; there won't be anyone to put a blindfold on her.

Don wasn't a partner at Sterling Cooper. There's no reason to think a creative director in this universe's parlance has to be a partner. In fact, it seems to me that Don Draper the lame duck partner/creative director was likely keeping both Peggy and Stan from rising in their positions sooner, which was hinted at in Stan's episode-opening ambitions.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:42 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

a one-off due to her being completely head over heels with Ted

But she wasn't even part of the budget conversation on casting, at all.

Maybe I just work in a field that it's impossible to move up in, but usually the difference between someone who is a mid-level position and a department head is precisely this distinction. Who is looking at the money? Who is making practical decisions about what is possible to do under the constraints we have?

Department heads make and/or sign off on budgets, even if they are in a creative area. Mid level "I'm doing OK but not the boss yet" employees don't have to think about that stuff, they just get to be creative all day. That's why, in my field at least, a lot of people are happy to stay at a mid-level position and have no particular drive to move up past a certain point. Because once you get up towards a department head position, it stops being all fun and games and starts being about bringing things in under tight constraints.

Peggy being creative director isn't a A+ check mark Yay For You Being All Empowered And Stuff. It's a job. It's not Miss America.
posted by Sara C. at 6:52 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

he looked directly at Ted and saw how utterly lost he was

I think if there was a recognition, it was that Ted couldn't do what Don could do. Namely, hold so many opposing truths and lies together at once and appear unfazed. But at the same time, he also envied that in Ted, wanted it for himself, and realized that he, Don, needs to be in New York to put things right, while Ted needs to be in California.
posted by dry white toast at 6:53 PM on June 24, 2013

sweetkid: I think it would be better if Weiner left it ambiguous. I like the idea that Don is potentially Freddy Rumsen fired, even though I would want him to eventually go back. I want him to THINK he is Freddy Rumsen fired

He's a voting partner. While they can technically out-vote him and fire him from Creative Director, they have to buy him out to get rid of him. I don't think anyone is envisioning that; can you imagine having clients ask for Don and being told, what, exactly? He's retired? And even that would depend on Don playing along. He could just show up everyday and sow discord.
posted by spaltavian at 6:55 PM on June 24, 2013

Then again, if you think about it, Don and Ted can't even get it together to be on the same page about which juice account to pursue. Don just went into a pitch meeting and said, "When I think of your product, I think about hookers."

Maybe the bar is lower than we think.
posted by Sara C. at 6:57 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Is Don Draper D.B. Cooper?
posted by Sara C. at 6:59 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Peggy being creative director isn't a A+ check mark Yay For You Being All Empowered And Stuff. It's a job. It's not Miss America.

It's not really a job but a fictional construct on a television show, though. Anyway, I'm less interested in it as a feminist check mark and more interested in it as something that's been foreshadowed and telegraphed pretty strongly by the show from the beginning and was supported by the way that this episode ended. In the past, Peggy wasn't included on budgetary conversations because she had two bosses, one of whom was deliberately excluding her from the conversation because she's, like, cute and passionate and stuff. I imagine that won't be a problem anymore, and Peggy has always been shown as ambitious.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:02 PM on June 24, 2013

Is Don Draper D.B. Cooper?

I feel like that could almost be an FPP. It's just fun.
posted by sweetkid at 7:04 PM on June 24, 2013

Guys, I need a GIF of Bob carving that goddamn turkey.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:04 PM on June 24, 2013 [7 favorites]

I'm less interested in it as a feminist check mark and more interested in it as something that's been foreshadowed and telegraphed pretty strongly by the show from the beginning and was supported by the way that this episode ended.

I agree with you on this. I just think certain details make it clear that it's not going to be that simple.

My prediction is that Peggy now has Don's job in her sights. Maybe this means she spends the first few episodes of next season straining under the inept leadership of Bloaty McBaldpate, only to realize there are other agencies out there where she wouldn't be creative director in name only. Maybe this means that, when Don comes back mid-season, she and Don tangle because she's basically been doing his job and now there's no way she'll get the recognition she deserves.

I was intrigued by Stan's desire to break off and form his own agency. I wonder who would be first on his list of people to poach?

Also, we've spent a lot of time establishing Duck as a headhunter. He didn't end up finding new jobs for Harry, Pete, or Bob. Duck has always believed in Peggy's talents, and there might be a lot of agencies looking to shake things up by bringing in a female creative director.
posted by Sara C. at 7:13 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Maybe this means that, when Don comes back mid-season, she and Don tangle because she's basically been doing his job and now there's no way she'll get the recognition she deserves.

Maybe, but I kinda feel like that was done already with her leaving for CGC. It would be a lot more interesting to see some other resolution to this, even if it's Stan-and-Peggy-start-their-own-agency (which would feel too fanfic for me unless it happens in the far future) or Don-kicks-the-bucket or whatever.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:19 PM on June 24, 2013

I'd kind of rather see, rather than Peggy getting and excelling at Don's job or something, her having to go up against another woman copywriter her age and level, or something like that. I just think next season will be more interesting with her having some challenges that don't involve Don.
posted by sweetkid at 7:19 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I personally think the math is a little bit fudged on Don. I think the show made certain claims about him that, as the series became more successful and we needed to know more about his past and the inner workings of an ad agency, became kind of unsupportable. So they just sort of hand-waved over the whole thing.

Exactly. Moreover, even more mysterious than how Don became Creative Director is how Don became Don. When he meets Roger in a flashback no matter what he's calling himself he's still the awkward, desperately wannabe, almost visibly terrified Dick.

Yet by the time of Series 1 Roger treats him as an equal. Hell, actually craves Don's respect. Roger doesn't give that away to anyone: if he doesn't respect you on the first day he's not going to respect you at all. He scarcely grows as a person himself and he doesn't really see it in others. So short of Don meeting a wizard in an abandoned subway tunnel who teaches him to say "SHAZAM", I don't know what would have happened in the interim to make Don the man we see in Episode 1.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:31 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

her having to go up against another woman copywriter her age and level

Please let's not have this. It's enough that Peggy and Joan can be antagonistic. I don't want the drama to be two women fighting over the same job.
posted by crossoverman at 7:34 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

Anyone in Los Angeles willing to pick me up an SC&P mug?
posted by crossoverman at 7:36 PM on June 24, 2013

Please let's not have this. It's enough that Peggy and Joan can be antagonistic. I don't want the drama to be two women fighting over the same job.

I don't think they would need to be "fighting over the same job." It just could be another woman in the office that's not just like that Margaret woman who was in a corner. Someone she'd have a connection with but also a rivalry of sorts.

The Joan/Peggy thing is totally different. They do not do the same job. It's more their history.
posted by sweetkid at 7:40 PM on June 24, 2013

I'm divided on the "more lady creatives" idea.

On the one hand I love it and am ashamed I never even thought it could be possible. And I love the idea of taking Peggy down a little by reminding us that she's not such a special snowflake.

On the other hand, the reason I didn't think of it is probably because, during the merger, the Margie thing kind of established the idea that the agencies at this point simply couldn't conceive of more than a token woman.

I also worry that it will go straight to a CATFIGHT!!!! place, which, ugh.

And I think that the issue of tokenism in the workplace is a bit anachronistic for 1969. I think a Mad Men:TNG set in the 80s would have to tackle this, but I think it's a bit premature for SC&P in 1969.

I would like to see Peggy with a wannabe-creative secretary, though. Or maybe someone a little like Fay, a freelancer or consultant for Peggy to cross paths with, who is an obvious professional who Peggy has no "Once Were Steno Pool" baggage with.

Oooh, I would kind of like a re-emergence of a secretary from times past, like maybe Hildy, showing up as a freelance creative. Then Peggy can be all "o rly you just randomly happened to decide you wanted to be a copywriter? really?"

Or what if Clara lobbied to get into accounts? The Pete Campbell to Peggy's Don Draper?
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

And, yet again, I will add to my Next Season On Mad Men christmas list:

A non-white professional at SC&P.
posted by Sara C. at 8:06 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

A non-white professional at SC&P

I honestly think they would do such a shit job with this I'm not sure I even want to know. Maybe with Pete and Ted in LA or something.

But yea another secretary lobbying up could be cool. I just want to see Peggy working along with another woman or two. I get your point about tokenism, but I think it would be an interesting challenge.
posted by sweetkid at 8:09 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Apropos of nothing, I just giggled at the thought of Peggy boning her way through the glass ceiling!
posted by stratastar at 8:11 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

I could see SC&P West hiring a Japanese-American or something. (Oh man wouldn't THAT be a coda to the "Oriental Family In Pete's Office" gag from season 1.)

There's also tons of cool Chicano Movement stuff going on in Los Angeles around this time, but I think it would be a serious stretch to expect the show to give it any attention. Though they did allude to the Young Lords that one time, which is something pretty much nobody knows about.

My larger question is whether the West Coast office is going to get any real screen time at all or whether it's going to largely be like Harry this season, standing in a hotel room throwing exposition at people.
posted by Sara C. at 8:19 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

with his shirt open of course.
posted by sweetkid at 8:20 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Wait a sec. Can SC&P West do something with the Panthers?

I am praying for a fabulous staff member of either gender with an afro, getting shit from Pete for wearing a dashiki to work. But I think that's a bit much to ask for.
posted by Sara C. at 8:21 PM on June 24, 2013 [1 favorite]

Bob, carving.
posted by The Whelk at 8:53 PM on June 24, 2013 [4 favorites]

HOT
posted by sweetkid at 8:55 PM on June 24, 2013

I think this NYT piece is pretty off base.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:11 PM on June 24, 2013

Clearly this must have just been a fluke

Side detail, little 20s-30s touches like suspenders, flat caps, and bowties have been constantly popular with youngish men for a while now, so it's easier to rotate in some period pieces then Mad Men's full body suits
posted by The Whelk at 9:17 PM on June 24, 2013

True, but I guess I just expected to see more button-downs and fewer t-shirts, maybe a turtleneck or two. A pixie haircut. Some bold colors.

I have no problem with the idea that the Mad Men crew isn't into that -- I don't need them to be trained monkeys dressing for my enjoyment. I just liked my pet theory that crew members absorb the aesthetic of strongly aesthetic projects.
posted by Sara C. at 9:22 PM on June 24, 2013

No I'm the one who intensely absorbs strong aesthetics around me like human silly puddy.
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Silly Puddy? Wasn't that Elaine's boyfriend on Seinfeld? The one who knew who the real D.B. Cooper was?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:21 PM on June 24, 2013 [3 favorites]

don't think we've linked to Paul Ford yet. Dude actually went to that Hershey school.

Seconding the mug request, Los Angeles MeFi Prop Acquisition Department.
posted by mwhybark at 11:34 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Moon River at the Thanksgiving scene is a perfect example of the irony of this show--this epic, song about romance remade as an anthem of reconstructing family...which the episode was kind of about, the tension between made and found family (peggy losing ted, ted going back to his wife, peggy and stan at the office, don and megan, don and his kids, roger cutting the son in the law out, pete and trudy and that tender moment, pete and his mother)
posted by PinkMoose at 11:47 PM on June 24, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, we've spent a lot of time establishing Duck as a headhunter. He didn't end up finding new jobs for Harry, Pete, or Bob. Duck has always believed in Peggy's talents, and there might be a lot of agencies looking to shake things up by bringing in a female creative director.

I don't disagree that Peggy would do well to look for another job (and Duck would work hard for her), but it sort of feels like the whole point of Duck's setup was that last scene where he happens to be there with Don's replacement. Harry, Pete, and Bob were all varying degrees of unserious in their job searches, which is why it doesn't surprise me none of them jumped ship.
posted by psoas at 4:57 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Oh man did I love the use of Moon River in the thanksgiving scene, it's such a sad song, full of Hollywood High Romantic longing, self-conciously " old fashioned" even when it premiered in 1961. It's more American than apple pie and a strange, sad, perfect choice for our Thanksgiving dinner of people who are, for whatever reason, cut off from thier " real" families in an episode, as PinkMoose said, heavily steeped in the " right" and " wrong" ways for family members to behave.
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

( also I would be remiss if I didn't mention it premiered in a movie which was based on a book about a teenaged hooker and her gay best friend living together....)
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Grantland's End Of Season wrap-up, the best MVPs, Rookies, and Bob Bensons.
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 AM on June 25, 2013

Los Angeles: come for the tacos, stay for the possibility of total reinvention!
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 AM on June 25, 2013

Is Bob, uh, bicoastal?
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 AM on June 25, 2013

Don's pitch to Hershey's, which came with a fun twist, demonstrated that everything Don knows about so-called normalcy he probably nicked off of advertisements in the first place.

I have known people like this, highly successful new comers to the upper middle class who sincerely belive everything in the magazines. It's super sad.
posted by The Whelk at 7:50 AM on June 25, 2013

From the Vulture recap:

"Interesting that Sally’s fake ID said “Beth Francis,” and that she’s doing her own low-level version of identity theft, or identity creation, as early as middle school. It’s also interesting that the names are a reference to her mother, but rhythmically it’s a twin of “Don Draper” and “Dick Whitman,” as it has the same number of syllables.)"
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 AM on June 25, 2013

Well, I'm pretty sure Sally is in high school now, but I take your point.

That also explains why they bothered to mention her alias in the conversation, which I was wondering about, since Betty also said that she made the fake ID rather than using another girl's or someone's older sister's. Sally's little acting out phase is meant to have much more deliberate echoes of her father than just "gonna be an alcoholic like daddy someday".

I would love to see Sally's version of a fake ID. What did drivers licenses even look like in 1968? I remember Woody Allen tearing his up in Annie Hall, so probably not plastic or even laminated. When I first moved to New York the New Jersey licenses didn't have photos on them.
posted by Sara C. at 8:06 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sally Draper, international jewel thief of mystery.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Did people even have to show ID to buy beer in 1968?

My only real awareness of this is the scene of the 8th grader buying beer in Dazed And Confused, but that's Texas and that kid was a lot smoother than Sally Draper.
posted by Sara C. at 8:11 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yes Sally may be many things but she does not look 18, but I assume things where less strictly enforced back then ( stories of HS-aged family members picking up beer for thier parents on the way home and school and all, but then the store owner knew them soooo...)
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 AM on June 25, 2013

Yeah, I imagine it being an insular little town with a boarding school probably doesn't help.

I feel like we need some of the people who were actually alive in the 60s to chime in. Could you just buy beer as a teenager without showing ID? What would the context for that have been? Did the store owner need to know your parents? Did this vary regionally? Was there any scrutiny at all?

I also just remembered the bit from American Grafitti where the dude tries to get someone to buy him whiskey. But I think that's different -- he's standing outside a liquor store. I can see a liquor store having stricter standards than a supermarket or corner shop.
posted by Sara C. at 8:20 AM on June 25, 2013

Sally's little acting out phase is meant to have much more deliberate echoes of her father than just "gonna be an alcoholic like daddy someday".

I've seen a lot of 'Sally is her father's daughter' and I think that's true, but she's also her mother's daughter in many ways. I think the car smoking in the last episode was meant to echo this, and a lot of Sally's haughty behavior in much of this season echoes upper middle class, well educated attitudes that I see in Betty and Sally. I'm pretty sure Betty hated her mother just as much as Sally hates Betty (or rather, love/hate, in both cases it seems a bit more complicated).

I mean, as much as Betty is definitely wrapped up in societal expectations, she did go model in Italy, which I'm sure made her mother send some 'which street corner did you want to end up on' comments her way.

Sally is much less wrapped up in "what's correct" than Betty, but she does care what people think about her, and I don't think she would want to divorce herself from the life she knows like Don did. She really, really hates her family right now but I don't think she has fantasies of a wholly different life.

I thought the acting out with beer was entirely the behavior of a girl who has a soul destroying secret about her father that she doesn't feel comfortable telling anyone. Her fake id name is close to Betty's name. She's like, wanting to tell someone, her mother even, but she just really can't and it's wrapped up in so many things for her. I don't see it as her becoming her father.
posted by sweetkid at 8:20 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh, yeah, she's definitely pulling from both sides. And when I say she's her father's daughter, I don't mean that I think she was actually tempted to run away and start life over again as Beth Francis. But it's interesting that the writers went out of their way to include a little identity stuff in with the acting out with alcohol. It's like a special little wakeup call tailored just for Don. "Do you want your kid to grow up just as fucked up as you are? No? THEN GET IT TOGETHER."

And, yeah, obviously it also works as a believable way that someone like Sally would act out. But they picked "bought beer with a fake ID" over "took PCP, jumped out dorm room window" for reasons.
posted by Sara C. at 8:29 AM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

"Do you want your kid to grow up just as fucked up as you are? No? THEN GET IT TOGETHER."

Yea, totally agree.
posted by sweetkid at 8:40 AM on June 25, 2013

"Do you want your kid to grow up just as fucked up as you are? No? THEN GET IT TOGETHER.

Or actually, more like, "If you can't get it together, then quit lying to me, like less 'I was comforting Sylvia with my penis, nothing to see there, I'm still your classy perfect dad' and more 'here is the creepy whorehouse I grew up in, I know it's gross but that's just me.' "
posted by sweetkid at 8:50 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Apparently, that's a new-money vs, old-money thing. The newly rich tried to absorb a lot of the etiquette of the old rich, but exaggerated it and got some of it wrong. I can't find an American example of it, but here's a description of its usage in English royalty that identified "pardon" as being middle class and gauche

Ha! Nailed it! My father's father was a desperate social climber who married into old money and got into the Masons via his father-in-law; the deeper reality is that he was merely the uneducated son of an immigrant hairdresser and fell ass-backwards into everything he got.

None of this had really occurred to me until just now.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:02 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

"Interesting that Sally’s fake ID said “Beth Francis,” and that she’s doing her own low-level version of identity theft, or identity creation, as early as middle school. It’s also interesting that the names are a reference to her mother, but rhythmically it’s a twin of “Don Draper” and “Dick Whitman,” as it has the same number of syllables.)"

Isn't her full name Sally Beth Draper? Beth Francis is just her middle name and her mom's new last name. And yeah, she's gotta be at least in 9th grade by now (look at Glenn!)

I think the moment that broke my heart (for good) this episode was seeing Pete saying goodbye to his sleeping daughter. The way this show deals with the handing down of pain, of loss, is just astonishing.

That moment and the final scene as well, when Sally looks over at her dad and reality begins to dawn. Heartbreaking.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:11 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Her fake id name is close to Betty's name.

"Beth Francis" is Sally's middle name + her stepfather's name.
posted by orange swan at 9:12 AM on June 25, 2013

Or actually, more like, "If you can't get it together, then quit lying to me, like less 'I was comforting Sylvia with my penis, nothing to see there, I'm still your classy perfect dad' and more 'here is the creepy whorehouse I grew up in, I know it's gross but that's just me.' "

I read that last scene as Don saying to Sally, "Have I told you lately that you're a spoiled brat?" But, you know, in a good way.

And, yeah, Sally Beth Draper. (It's on the envelope with the Grandma Ida summons. I think there might have even been a Francis in there.)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:12 AM on June 25, 2013

I think the moment that broke my heart (for good) this episode was seeing Pete saying goodbye to his sleeping daughter. The way this show deals with the handing down of pain, of loss, is just astonishing.

Yeah, boots on my soul, that one.
posted by sweetkid at 9:13 AM on June 25, 2013

Oh, and did anyone notice the black kid on the stoop of the old house? You can bet Bobby noticed.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:14 AM on June 25, 2013 [3 favorites]

And, yeah, Sally Beth Draper. (It's on the envelope with the Grandma Ida summons. I think there might have even been a Francis in there.)

I noticed that too, and the first thought that struck me is that her mother ("Betty" is short for Elizabeth, right?) sorta named her daughter after herself but only went halfway.
posted by psoas at 9:17 AM on June 25, 2013

Oh, and did anyone notice the black kid on the stoop of the old house? You can bet Bobby noticed.

"See? We ARE Negroes!"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:21 AM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

I don't think it's that unusual for a mother to give her daughter her name or a diminutive of her name as a middle name - after all, both mother and daughter traditionally end up with the father's last name, so it's a way of keeping a bit of herself in there. I know several people who have their mother's name as their middle name.
posted by sweetkid at 9:21 AM on June 25, 2013

I'm pretty sure for a good while there about half of all girls were middle-named Beth.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:22 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Most of the girls I grew up with were middle named Elizabeth or Lynn.

My middle name is my father's name which is an Indian thing that sucked major but that's a whole other story...
posted by sweetkid at 9:25 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Huh.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:31 AM on June 25, 2013

AV Club review is up. Sorry if it's already been posted. I didn't see it.

The point that stands out for me in the review is the observation that Peggy has had pretty much no control of the things that happen to her in this episode, and in this season more broadly.
posted by dry white toast at 9:36 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah my middle name is a version of my father's first name - seems normal to me
posted by The Whelk at 9:37 AM on June 25, 2013

My cousin ended up with her paternal grandmother's first name, and maternal grandmother's middle name. The result: Marie Antoinette.
posted by dry white toast at 9:41 AM on June 25, 2013

My middle name is my mom's name.

I don't think I'd have made a fake ID with Catherine or Katie as a first name.
posted by Sara C. at 9:42 AM on June 25, 2013

my middle name is my grandfather's first name.
posted by PinkMoose at 9:50 AM on June 25, 2013

Also, for what it's worth, any combination of Catherine and my mom's re-married name sounds like my mom and wouldn't be anything I'd want to go by for any reason. Maybe I'd feel different about it if my stepdad had come into my life when I was still a young kid and he was a father figure to me, but, eh. I've never felt any craving to subsume my identity into my mom's.

So maybe sweetkid had a point.
posted by Sara C. at 9:59 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

The wrap-up interview from Elisabeth Moss that rewil posted above is really good. I love her answer about Peggy's and Don's relationship this season (bolded mine):

Peggy called Don a monster in a recent episode, but it seems like their relationship can survive that. On the other hand, she’s now one of the few main characters who doesn't know about his past. Do you think if and when she learns about it that it will change the way she thinks about Don?

I never thought about that, but it’s interesting. I think she loves him. He’s family. And she already knows some pretty harsh things. He’s thrown money at her! He’s done things to her that are far worse than what she would find out about his past. Throwing money at her face, giving accounts away, threatening to tell the client that she’s having an affair with her married boss, and then giving away credit for her creative idea — that’s far worse than anything he could ever [reveal]. You know how important that is to Peggy. There’s nothing more important than ownership over her creative ideas because that’s all she has as a woman in that workplace. All she has are her ideas, and he takes that away from her. That’s why she calls him a monster. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t still love there. I will say this about their relationship: It’s very special and it’s very common in the sense that it’s very familial between the two of them. It’s like brother/sister, father/daughter, best friends, boss/employee. It’s everything but romantic. You love your father even if you hate him sometimes. You’ll call your brother a monster, but there’s love there that will never change. Frankly, finding out about his past, I don’t know if that’s something that would break the bank. [Laughs.]

I hope Weiner ends the series with Peggy and Don having reconciled in some way.
posted by gladly at 10:00 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Speaking of Grandma Ida, did we ever get an explanation of how she knew Sally's name? Or am I misremembering the scene?
posted by mwhybark at 10:21 AM on June 25, 2013

Didn't she pull a "Now, which one are you, again?" fast one on her?
posted by Sara C. at 10:22 AM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

So maybe sweetkid had a point.

Well, but of course I -

Yeah, my point was that Sally was pointedly absorbing her mother's identity in her fake ID, while also choosing (one of) her father's favorite vices, the alcohol, in a way of saying, "I am telling you both that I'm angry at you but am still part of you and need you."
posted by sweetkid at 10:22 AM on June 25, 2013 [3 favorites]

I like that.
posted by Sara C. at 10:24 AM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, my point was that Sally was pointedly absorbing her mother's identity in her fake ID, while also choosing (one of) her father's favorite vices, the alcohol, in a way of saying, "I am telling you both that I'm angry at you but am still part of you and need you."

Yes, that's how I read it, too: that Sally is synthesizing her parents' identities and vices into the persona she's using to act out, which is a way of performing a much-needed separation without making it a total separation. Beautifully phrased, sweetkid.

It also struck me that she's crafting her fake identity intentionally, which is more than her father did: in a moment of panic, he stepped into another man's name, but --- even at her young age --- she's created/procured a custom-made ID that incorporates facets of her actual identity/history.
posted by Elsa at 10:47 AM on June 25, 2013

I initially saw the "Francis" bit as identifying with her mother, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect it's instead an explicit rejection of Don in favor of Henry. We've seen that with the kids more and more in the past year, how much they love him.

Funny, for all that Megan was initially presented as a Von Trapp--you don't really get that same sense of identification with her. I mean, they don't live with her, sure. That might be part of it. But Henry seems like another father to them, truly.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:00 AM on June 25, 2013 [6 favorites]

I think a big part of the Henry/Megan divide is an age thing, too.

Sally seems to see Megan as more of an older sister/aunt/babysitter type figure than a maternal figure. Which I don't think is necessarily due to literal age (Megan is still WELL older than Sally and not a peer of hers in any sense), but due to the atmosphere of youth and cool that Megan projects. This is definitely still a world where you can either be a cool young person or a mother, not both, and a lot of Megan's central conflict is finding herself in a place where she knows she's supposed to be stepping off the cliff from maiden to mother, but she isn't quite ready to do that.

Meanwhile, Henry was already a dad long before Sally was ever thought of. He entered their lives as a dad figure, not a babysitter. He is a patriarch, and completely comfortable in his place.
posted by Sara C. at 11:41 AM on June 25, 2013

Slate Video - Chevy is Vietnam, every reference explained.
posted by The Whelk at 12:04 PM on June 25, 2013

Meanwhile, Henry was already a dad long before Sally was ever thought of. He entered their lives as a dad figure, not a babysitter. He is a patriarch, and completely comfortable in his place.

Well, and maybe it's a bit reductive, but he seems to love them, too. Whereas honestly, the kids never seemed much more than a burden to Megan once her own career was going.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:16 PM on June 25, 2013

I agree that Henry loves, them, I just think it's a little easier for him than it is for Megan.

The frustrating thing about Megan's position is that Don expects her to parent them. Which isn't really fair. Being a mom in 1969 means a lot more shit work than being a dad, and Megan didn't sign up for nose wiping and shoe tying duty.

I mean, I agree that she doesn't come off as loving or maternal towards them at all, but can you really blame her? I don't know that it's necessary because Henry loves them and she doesn't and he's a good dad and she's a bad mom.

My own parents remarried within a few months of each other. I definitely noticed this exact dynamic with my step-parents. Stepdad -- cool dad figure who took my brothers fishing and on hunting trips, and was generally fun to be around. Has a boat! And a big property with a barn and a bunch of old cars to work on and woods to wander around in and old tin cans to shoot with the .22! Stepmom -- omg what a shrew amirite?

I think that, either now or in the 60s, it's really hard to be a stepmother. It must be even harder to be a stepmother when you have to transition from dad's secretary/babysitter. Especially if you're the kind of person who is still figuring out whether or how to be a mother, in general.
posted by Sara C. at 12:26 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Eh, I agree generally with what you're saying about stepmothers vs stepfathers and I think it's exacerbated by Don's absent parenting, but the resentment Megan feels toward Don's children felt writ pretty large this season, where, in every interaction, she was eager to shuffle them off or leave them alone. Whereas Henry is a full time parent who appears to act like one (and seems, in fact, much more involved in parenting than Don ever was).

I get that Megan never wanted to be a mom--that much is clear. But you marry someone who has kids and it's not really something that can be avoided.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:09 PM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

Pete pulling out rather than staying to fight a losing battle is pretty apt, if the Vietnam metaphor holds. He does tend to be more politically liberal than other characters. He'd definitely embody the "WTF are we even doing in Vietnam we need to end the war" ethos. But, like, not for cool countercultural reasons, just for pragmatism. No need to stand around comparing dick sizes with the Soviets.

But he's also representative of the way the US military just really fundamentally didn't know how to fight a guerilla war in Indochina, but went in thinking war is war and America's good at it. Pete thought he'd ace the Chevy assignment just because he's a good accounts man, without ever considering the fact that he can barely even drive a car.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:12 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Responding to comments upthread, on the subject of where people stand in their professional development at season end...

Sara C.
Your guess is as good as mine as whether seven years is enough to become creative director at a top-30 ad agency. However, her part in the aspirin ad in the last episode implies to me that, tenure aside, she's not ready.

Peggy's work on the aspirin ad was supposed to be seen as top-notch. Don clearly acknowledged this. That she didn't take into consideration the accounting issues wasn't her fault; that was on Ted, who wasn't thinking with his head.

Also there's no indication in terms of Peggy's character that she's some pie-in-the-sky creative. On the contrary, she's very practical and has been shown to pivot and adapt to client needs in the past, while also thinking for the firm (see what she did with Koss headphones). Conforming to the requirements of a client's budget just doesn't seem like it would be a stretch for her at ALL.

At any rate, some of these story outcomes I think we're supposed to understand more in terms of the character and plot development we've seen so far rather than what might seem most realistic IRL. We can't know for sure that Peggy's going be Creative Director, of course, but as far as the show is concerned she's been set up in all possible ways to step into that position. (And the storytelling was similar with Joan & Avon.)

Except that Old Don so obviously isn't back. The Hershey pitch is just a tired rehash of every 50s-esque nostalgic domesticity lie they've ever done.

This is a misread (or a "different" read maybe I should say, since interpretations different from the writers' intent can be valid), though apparently a really common one. I thought the Hershey's pitch was good, but was maybe in the minority there. Anyway, Weiner commented on Don's work in the Sepinwall interview:

I don't want people to think Don is off his game. The clients are a little behind. That's the way they should see it. What they should really think about is that he ruined a public offering, he fired their most important client, he impulsively forced them into a partnership merger and then went to war against their partner. That's why he has the leave of absence. I don't think there should be any doubt that he is at the height of his abilities. The great thing about Don, and part of the contrast with Ted, is Don is not a fad-ist. Don is still operating from his own relationship with the product, which is more timeless. Despite trends in humor, photography and everything else that's going on in what the advertising agency's self-proclaimed creative revolution, Don's advertising, I think, is still great advertising, and probably better than a lot of the advertising that is getting sold.
posted by torticat at 1:42 PM on June 25, 2013

Whereas Henry is a full time parent who appears to act like one

Well, there are two reasons for that.

Firstly, Henry gets to pursue his career without it being seen as looking for any excuse to abandon the Draper kids.

Secondly, you have to keep in mind the scope of Mad Men as a television show. We're mostly seeing Henry in family scenes interacting with the kids because his only relevance to the show is as Betty's husband and the kids' stepfather. It's not State House Men, it's Mad Men. Meanwhile, Megan is on the show because she's Don's wife, which means we can see her in a diverse set of situations, not just "at the Francis house" and "doing stuff with Betty".

While I agree that Henry seems overall warmer and more loving towards the kids than Megan does, and I agree that she's said some things about them that are beyond the pale, I can't see Megan as the evil shrew who is not doing right by the Draper kids. I don't think she "doesn't love" them. It's just... this is a hard thing, and she's in the hardest position of all. And is singularly ill-equipped for it in a way that Henry is not.

Henry sort of gets to float along being in the role he's always been in, and yay, the kids like him well enough, isn't that nice. Megan has to completely abandon her life to mother these kids that aren't hers, and if she so much as calls them "screwed up" (which they kind of are), she's the big bad evil stepmother from hell.
posted by Sara C. at 1:51 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's kind of a mirror of the Don/Betty parenting divide from when they were married, really. The whole kids situation supports the theory that Megan's arc is a flashback to how Betty transitioned from Italian-speaking city girl model to put-upon matron via marriage to Don.
posted by Sara C. at 1:53 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't want people to think Don is off his game.

Weiner is trolling us SO HARD.

Of course Don is off his game. He just spent the night in jail after punching out a preacher. His big idea for Hershey was "Hershey: Whores Love It!" Don is so far off his game at this point that if his game is at Shea Stadium, he's at Fenway Park.

That said, yeah, I agree that Don sabotaged Hershey to make Ted look good so that he'd end up going to California. But if all it takes to get fired from your job as a partner in an ad agency is fuck up one pitch, YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY WAY OFF YOUR GAME.
posted by Sara C. at 1:58 PM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

I think weiner meant solely creatively. Anyway, I think you are underestimating the sacrifices someone like Henry would have to make to be a custodial stepparent, and a good one, at that. His social role means that he could be absent, like don and Megan, but he's not--he is a real parent to another man's children, and that's pretty significant, for the era.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:06 PM on June 25, 2013

I also personally happen to think that the show is depicting Don as not being with the times, as a creative, and going back to the same hackneyed well over and over.

Maybe Weiner disagrees and doesn't think constantly doing the same pitch over and over* is hackneyed at all, and that you really can advertise any product by hearkening back to a sepia-toned Olden Times.

This is like Reason #1 that showrunners aren't really auteurs and there's no particular reason to take their word as gospel in interviews like this. Like, if Weiner really can't see the difference between Don's Carousel pitch and his Hershey pitch, well, uh. OK, you just run along and play some golf with the studio execs, then, I guess.

*Then again, this is TV, and TV's depiction of any given career path is mostly hacky shortcuts, so, fine, I guess?
posted by Sara C. at 2:06 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Of course Don is off his game. He just spent the night in jail after punching out a preacher. His big idea for Hershey was "Hershey: Whores Love It!" Don is so far off his game at this point that if his game is at Shea Stadium, he's at Fenway Park.

Weiner was specifically answering a question about whether we should see Don's pitches throughout the year as good or bad. A lot of us discussed how some of his pitches seemed old-fashioned, particularly the margarine one with the farmhouse and the house wife and the cow. Now it seems that feeds into Don's nostalgia for things that never happened to him. But I think Weiner makes a good case that most of the work Don did this year was as good as ever - an in some ways, because he was pitching ads without the product in them - he was ahead of his time.

Obviously, the Hershey's pitch was an exception at that moment in his life, after hitting rock bottom, ending up in the drunk tank and with the DTs. He's still on his game moments before when he pitches the fake version of his childhood. Then he makes a confession because he's at a point where he can't hold his past back anymore. Sure, it was unprofessional, but sometimes Don is unprofessional - that's why the leave of absence. Not because he's not still doing good work, but because he's being self-destructive on the company's time again.
posted by crossoverman at 2:07 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think you are underestimating the sacrifices someone like Henry would have to make to be a custodial stepparent, and a good one, at that.

No, I'm absolutely not. I'm saying that because of the circumstances, his path is a lot easier than Megan's path. As a man, and someone who is already a father and isn't trying to live the Youth Lifestyle, it's relatively easy for Henry to just keep playing the role he's been cast in. I don't think being a good stepfather is easy, but there's just a whole lot of terrain he doesn't have to cover, because being seen as a father figure is not new for him.

Meanwhile, to be a good stepmother, Megan would have to completely revise the person that she is. Which is a lot to expect.

Note that I don't think Henry is doing a bad job, and nor do I think that Megan is doing an exemplary one. I just get why this is so much harder for Megan than it is for Henry.
posted by Sara C. at 2:10 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Of course Don is off his game. He just spent the night in jail after punching out a preacher. His big idea for Hershey was "Hershey: Whores Love It!"

Well of course THAT, that was about Don personally. The whore story was not his "big idea" for the client!

Even with Hershey's it's still the case that Don is still operating from his own relationship with the product, which is more timeless. He changed the story to make it wholesome and palatable (not to mention more typical than his own experience!), but he's still operating from the same basis/objective--which is to try to tap into deeply felt experience with the product.
posted by torticat at 2:14 PM on June 25, 2013

He's still on his game moments before when he pitches the fake version of his childhood.

No, he's not. It's the same pitch he's done a zillion times. We have previously seen this same pitch flop in much easier rooms than this. He tried this pitch with margarine, and it didn't even fly in his own department that he is the boss of. It's not a great pitch, and it's an especially weak pitch in a situation where they're in a bake-off with 29 bigger agencies and trying to convince a client who doesn't advertise AT ALL that they should start doing so with SC&P.

Again, maybe none of this matters much to Weiner, because, like I said, this sort of thing is how almost every workplace oriented TV show handles the Making The Sausage part of the show. It's perfectly OK for Don to just have the same pitch all the time and *magic!* it works every time. That's how law firm shows and cop shows and medical shows do it.

But if you actually watch Don's pitches this season, they're not all that.
posted by Sara C. at 2:16 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don is so far off his game at this point that if his game is at Shea Stadium, he's at Fenway Park

This is an excellent burn, like a Roger level burn.

TV's depiction of any given career path is mostly hacky shortcuts

YES. As someone who has never seen their own industry so closely examined by television, YES. They don't even have my job on this show.
posted by sweetkid at 2:19 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Nother vote for seeing actual ad agency and advertising related concepts and storylines rather than Generic Professional Office.
posted by The Whelk at 2:23 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Now I know why my mom always yells at doctor shows. You can't even have them on when she's around.

otherwise

"THAT IS NOT HOW YOU DO THAT THE PATIENT WILL DIE!" for an hour.
posted by sweetkid at 2:42 PM on June 25, 2013 [5 favorites]

Dick Whitman's childhood home on Google Streetview.
posted by donajo at 2:49 PM on June 25, 2013 [6 favorites]

If you ever want to watch my Mom, a normally sedate member of the state criminal justice system, totally loose her shit, make her watch a lawyer show.
posted by The Whelk at 2:51 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Anyway I was under the impression that at the beginning at least, Mad Men was more faithful to the specifically of the industry and period then usual for an hour long drama...although even I can tell we've moved furth and further away from the details of how an agency runs or the history of advertising and more into " and then some ad stuffy thingy happens."
posted by The Whelk at 2:54 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

So yeah one aspect of being a ridiculously over-educated household (one JD, one MD+JD) is that a good 40% of broadcast TV is just automatically unwatchable.
posted by ambrosia at 3:01 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Dick Whitman's childhood home on Google Streetview.

OMG THIS HOUSE IS NEXTDOOR
posted by Sys Rq at 3:01 PM on June 25, 2013

I think a sign that Don still has some game in general is the systematic way he takes Ted out after seeing him and Peggy at the movies. He immediately puts a plan in place, gets HIS juice and then delivers a truly great pitch at the St. Joseph's meeting. Leave aside that he got them to up the budget a bit - that was just a minor side effect. In Don's mind, the client is not St. Joseph's at the meeting. The client is himself and what he wants is to bring Ted and Peggy to the verge of a panic attack and then leave them humiliated. Watching the pitch from that perspective he totally nails it.

I agree the Hershey pitch seems to be a "cargo cult" (to use Sara's phrase) version of the Carousel pitch and I personally wasn't especially moved by it, but my read was that the Hershey folks liked it. It did seem like a thin concept for an entire campaign but my sense was that it was more of a preliminary/introductory presentation.

On the page marked 11 in this PDF is an article about Hershey's first advertising campaign (from the Hershey foundation). To quote:

Along with the slogan, Fuess also developed the concept for the first television commercials. He wanted the commercials to express the personal relationships nurtured by the shared enjoyment of Hershey’s Milk Chocolate. His strategy was to “build upon the marvelous reminisces of people and what the Hershey bar means to most people and the fact that it’s American and it tastes so good and there’s something wondrous about a little child eating it and sharing it with his parents.... [T]he idea of a father with his son on his shoulders and the son tears open the Hershey bar, eats some and gives some to his father as he’s walking down the street.”

No hair-tousling but it looks like they went with a standard nostalgia angle after all.
posted by mikepop at 3:17 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Of course Don is off his game. He just spent the night in jail after punching out a preacher. His big idea for Hershey was "Hershey: Whores Love It!"

>Well of course THAT, that was about Don personally. The whore story was not his "big idea" for the client!

If you examine the original pitch, it actually is a stealth "Whores love it!" pitch --- or at least, it's about love as a transaction. Not only is the story a (probably trumped-up) story about a cash gift* making Dick feel loved, he caps it with the phrase "Hershey’s is the currency of affection" [emphasis mine].

*because in Don's story, his father doesn't give him a Hershey bar; Archie gives Dick money and lets him buy anything he wants.
posted by Elsa at 3:18 PM on June 25, 2013 [5 favorites]

the resentment Megan feels toward Don's children felt writ pretty large this season, where, in every interaction, she was eager to shuffle them off or leave them alone.

Hm, that wasn't my takeaway from those scenes. In each case, it was Don who had bailed on his responsibilities as father, and unreasonably expected Megan to pick up the slack. Which she did, to the extent she could while still keeping her own job.

I guess she was pretty snappy with Sally three episodes back, when Sally's friend was staying over. But even then, when she told them to be quiet and go to sleep, her threat was that next time it would be Don dealing with them. Which suggests they'd be more scared of him than her.

My own stepmother came into a tough situation with four- and five-year-old kids and didn't handle it well at ALL (this was in the early seventies, dad working long office hours etc.). And she didn't have a job outside the home to juggle. The kids alone are hard.

All things considered, I think Megan's done a pretty good job... even when she's been short-tempered with the kids, it's been well within the range of normal parenting. Definitely within the range of what could be expected while also dealing with an absentee, alcoholic father. And we did see her taking initiative with the kids, taking them to the park, shopping with Sally.

Whereas Henry is a full time parent who appears to act like one (and seems, in fact, much more involved in parenting than Don ever was)

Henry's just pretty awesome. Like Megan, he inherited four children from the Don&Betty marriage, and he's done great both with the three little ones AND the grownup one.
posted by torticat at 3:26 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yes, when he said " Hersey's is the currency of affection." I went " Dear god don you make commericalism and ad work sound SO SLEAZY when YIU just say it like that." and then, boom, bordello story.
posted by The Whelk at 3:27 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

You'd think a savvy ad man would avoid themes like "currency of affection" with Hershey's, if only to avoid reminding clients and customers of the WWII "Hershey bar and a pair of nylons" cliché.
posted by Elsa at 3:31 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Eh, I don't think it's sleazy. Well, Don's own experience is definitely sleazy! But the dad giving the kid the candy bar isn't. Obviously it's about a commercial transaction, the whole point is getting people to buy Hershey's. But the pitch is, when you give a kid a Hershey's bar, it's not just about candy, it's an expression of love.

It's pretty much the same deal as Peggy's "Take it, break it, share it, love it," campaign for Popsicle.

The Jaguar ad--now THAT was sleazy. Disgusting advertising (but no less brilliant for all that).
posted by torticat at 3:35 PM on June 25, 2013

Well all those kinds of ads are based on love as a commodity and thus, icky, but it's more in not directly saying that out loud and then following it up with a story about prostitution.
posted by The Whelk at 3:37 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Franklin Avenue had more about the Whitman house stand-in.
posted by rewil at 3:38 PM on June 25, 2013

This is what my Hershey Pitch Thought Process went like:

PHASE I: Oh, good, Don isn't shitting all over this one. Well, he did say he loved Hershey's earlier and seemed to be more excited about this one than most this season.

PHASE II: What? Did this really happen? This can't have actually happened literally to Don himself right? But, you know, you gotta fake it to make it, I guess.

PHASE III: This is such a lie. What a fucking shit-eating grin he has on his face. Liar. My god. Advertising. It's all fucking lies. This is so disgusting.

PHASE IV: Is this supposed to be disgusting? Am I the only one that finds this to be a disgusting lie that represents everything that is wrong with capitalism and America? (I think this might have been around the "currency of affection" point in the pitch.)

PHASE V: Wait, so is this supposed to be a good pitch? What are the Hershey people thinking? Why is everyone's face so inscrutable right now? Because this is actually not a very good pitch, really. It's a smarmy shitsmeared lie that besmirches everything good and true in this world.

PHASE VI: Why is Don's hand shaking?

PHASE VII: Oh, he's got something else to say. Maybe this is like the Lucky Strike meeting in the first episode where he gives them some lukewarm crap and it's obviously bullshit but he pulls it out off the cuff. I wonder what he's going to say....

PHASE VIII: Wait, where are we going with this story?

PHASE IX: Whut

PHASE X: I guess Don found a way to shit all over this one after all.
posted by Sara C. at 3:53 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, I live quite near the Whitman Sampler Whorehouse Of Doom. That's maybe 10 minutes from my house.
posted by Sara C. at 3:56 PM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

PHASE IX: Whut

I spent most of that episode yo-yoing between "PHASE IX: Whut" and "PHASE XI: \0/ STEVE HOLT!"
posted by Elsa at 3:59 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

It's pretty much the same deal as Peggy's "Take it, break it, share it, love it," campaign for Popsicle.

Two thoughts about this.

1. It's really not, because in that pitch, Peggy doesn't say anything about your mom giving you money to go to the store and buy a popsicle, or buying you a popsicle as some kind of substitute for real affection. There's no economic element. And, really, if you think about it, it's about how you don't need much money to show your kids love: you're a mom, and you have two kids and only one popsicle. The kids have to share. But it's the sharing that makes it good. That's almost the opposite of "and then my daddy bought me a hershey bar for being such a good boy".

2. Keep in mind, too, that the popsicle pitch was one of the first Peggy ever landed. It's actually a pretty softball entry level approach. I mean, compare her popsicle pitch with her idea for aspirin. You can really see how Peggy has grown as a copywriter by looking at those two very similar ideas.

Also, apropos of not much, the Don's first take on the Hershey pitch reminded me a lot of the conversation with Betty about Sally going to boarding school, where he's like "yeah, I'll pay for it. whatever she wants" without even letting Betty finish a sentence.
posted by Sara C. at 4:04 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

PHASE VI: Why is Don's hand shaking?

Like Ted said, you can't stop cold like that.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:09 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

(Key paragraph: "DT can sometimes be associated with severe, uncontrollable tremors of the extremities and secondary symptoms such as anxiety, panic attacks and paranoia. Confusion is often noticeable to onlookers as patients will have trouble constructing simple sentences or making basic logical calculations. In many cases, people who rarely speak out of turn will have an increased tendency for gaffes even though they are sober.")
posted by Sys Rq at 4:12 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's important what we the viewers think of Don's first Hershey pitch. We're living in 2013 and know how cheesy and overplayed that kind of commercial is.
What's more important is that the Hershey execs were obviously intrigued and liking what they heard, and the SC&P contingent were looking smug and also quite pleased in a "Don hits another one out of the park" kind of way. Wiener is obviously trying to convey Don turning a big potential win into a bed-shitting embarrassment.
I'm still trying to figure out the significance of his long look at Ted just before the switcheroo. Ted is obviously quite broken in that scene and it has a huge effect on Don. Does he envision Ted turning into him if Ted doesn't escape to LA? If so, why does he care? Or does he see Sally turning into Ted as a result of having an alcoholic father? There's also been a strong Don/Ted as Father/Son dynamic at play all season...is Don sacrificing his false identity to save all of his children? (including Peggy?).
Man, this episode is going to stay with me for a while until I can figure it all out.
posted by rocket88 at 4:15 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, no I got that it was the DTs, I just didn't immediately get why we were being shown that Don has the DTs specifically in this moment of this scene. Then he kept talking, and I was like "Oh."

For a second, I had hope that maybe his hands were shaking because he had such an AMAZING idea about Hershey bars that he was just about to say, to close that shit right the fuck up here in the room. Or out of relief at not fucking it up. Or as some kind of callback to Betty in season 1 and her anxieties about being a good mother to Sally. Or really anything but "here's a pathetic drunk."
posted by Sara C. at 4:16 PM on June 25, 2013

the SC&P contingent were looking smug and also quite pleased in a "Don hits another one out of the park" kind of way

I got more of a "whew thank god he didn't fuck this one up..." than anything even remotely close to hitting anything out of the park. The pitch was not very good and it would have been total fan-fiction for it to land them the Hershey account. Not in comparison to 2013 ads, but in comparison to other things we've seen on the show.

It's, like, a "cure for the common chocolate" level concept.
posted by Sara C. at 4:18 PM on June 25, 2013

Or as some kind of callback to Betty in season 1 and her anxieties about being a good mother to Sally.

It could be a bit of that, actually. I mean, here he is talking about the perfect father, and then shakey shakey.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:21 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Also, I live quite near the Whitman Sampler Whorehouse Of Doom. That's maybe 10 minutes from my house.

Oh we have an activity for next week
posted by sweetkid at 4:25 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, can I just say, re the Franklin Avenue link, that you know you lived in New York for too long when $600K for a six bedroom Victorian house in Echo Park seems like a total steal?
posted by Sara C. at 4:25 PM on June 25, 2013

in that pitch, Peggy doesn't say anything about your mom giving you money to go to the store and buy a popsicle, or buying you a popsicle as some kind of substitute for real affection

Indeed, that pitch was specifically about shoppers buying Popsicles to eat at home (which, for their target market, means moms buying Popsicles) rather than giving kids some change so they can buy Popsicles from the truck. It's exactly the opposite of Don's story about a dad who gave him money so he could pick out something he wanted.

Peggy's pitch explicitly describes the Popsicle pitch's archetypal mother (so clearly designed to call back to the Madonna, complete with halo; heck, Peggy's even wearing her gray church-going dress for the pitch) as bestowing the product upon the children.

The Popsicle pitch casts the parent as the bestower of a sweet, not the bestower of cash that lets the kid supply their own sweet, and further uses the product to convey something about how the children are treated by the parent: as Peggy says, "we're completely equal in her eyes. Beloved."
posted by Elsa at 4:26 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Dick Whitman's childhood home on Google Streetview.

click left and turn to look at the side of the Whitman house. Two location trucks and a stash of gear.
posted by mwhybark at 4:29 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

that you know you lived in New York for too long when $600K for a six bedroom Victorian house in Echo Park seems like a total steal?

Seriously.
posted by The Whelk at 4:29 PM on June 25, 2013

you lived in New York for too long

No such thing
posted by sweetkid at 4:32 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Or really anything but "here's a pathetic drunk."

Eh, they tell us it's happening in the scene before. I thought it was pretty clear. They also didn't show whether or not he had any more of that drink. So.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:34 PM on June 25, 2013

Sweetkid, admit it. You look at a house like that at think it probably costs 5-10 million, easy.

Harry, Stan, Don, Ted, and Pete are right. California is the fucking land of opportunity.
posted by Sara C. at 4:34 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Don't even
posted by sweetkid at 4:39 PM on June 25, 2013

Random think #456

(speedy?) Stan: "It'll be the frontier! We'll be like pioneers!"

later, crosses in front of door on way out for the holiday, wearing hippy hipster Daniel Boone fringed jacket. He's a pioneer. I can only hope he turns up on a Daniel Boone raccoon cap.
posted by mwhybark at 4:41 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

California is the fucking land of opportunity.

You know what state has awesome SC&P coffee mugs in it? That's right. Yes you do.

(Twitter Pete was tweeting the theme song to the Beverly Hillbillies this week)
posted by mwhybark at 4:43 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Stan is totally going to launch the Hamm's mountain man campaign.
posted by mwhybark at 4:48 PM on June 25, 2013

no, this is the one Stan works on.
posted by mwhybark at 4:49 PM on June 25, 2013

1. So what you're saying is that Stan Rizzo is... THE MOST INTERESTING MAN IN THE WORLD?

2. I'm surprised we haven't run into any jingle-writers yet on the show. I mean, when I think retro advertising, that's kind of what I think of. Especially those really simplistic "let's just sing the slogan over and over" like that second Hamm's commercial.
posted by Sara C. at 5:14 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

I, for one, am glad the whorehouse is doing well so we don't have to look at Young Dick Whitman's bowl haircut any more.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:41 PM on June 25, 2013

Young Dick Whitman's Bowl Haircut would make a great sockpuppet account. If, you know, you were wondering what to get me for my birthday.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:45 PM on June 25, 2013 [4 favorites]

I got more of a "whew thank god he didn't fuck this one up..." than anything even remotely close to hitting anything out of the park. The pitch was not very good and it would have been total fan-fiction for it to land them the Hershey account. Not in comparison to 2013 ads, but in comparison to other things we've seen on the show.

Wait, why was it so bad when it seems like in real life, Hershey went with something really close to what Don was pitching?
posted by PussKillian at 5:53 PM on June 25, 2013

I think $600,000 for that house is a steal, and I've never even been to New York.

Maybe the property values are low since it's kind of inconvenient to have a film crew constantly blocking the street?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:03 PM on June 25, 2013

Franklin Avenue had more about the Whitman house stand-in.

I just had a Moment when I realized that it's entirely possible that Mad Men is... made in California. It just never occurred to me that it was filmed there, rather than in, you know, New York.

I may need to lie down.
posted by jokeefe at 6:28 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

The pilot was filmed in nyc the payboy club scene was filmed in the old dr sketcy's space the slipper room.
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

The Slipper Room is where I got to know the people who know the people who know the people...basically how I met 3/4 of my friends in NYC
posted by sweetkid at 7:11 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

I did think it was funny that the whole episode Don was planning to run away to California, then decided to return to the source of his demons in scrappy old PA, and expose such to his family...and yet in that last scene there all the actors were, blinking into an unmistakably Southern Californian sun.
posted by sweetkid at 7:13 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

Elsa
buying you a popsicle as some kind of substitute for real affection
and Sara C.
not the bestower of cash that lets the kid supply their own sweet

Wow you guys are so cynical! :) The first Hershey's story Don told was not about the dad buying off the kid with cold cash. The kid mows the lawn, and the dad doesn't just throw him a coin, he takes him to the store, tells him he can choose anything, tousles his hair. How can this be seen in any way as sleazy or commercial? The story is about time spent together, and the chocolate purchase being a healthy (and memorable) part of that.

This is contrasted with Don's true story, the one about the whorehouse in which "love" actually is bought and sold. When Don initially talks about Hershey's as the "currency of affection," he is talking about using chocolate to express love, not to buy it or as a substitute for it. Then he makes a 180 degree turn. The "currency" language makes the turn possible, because currency actually is something that can be used either in a loving, giving way, or in a sleazy way in which love/relationships are commodified (of which the whorehouse is a most literal illustration).
posted by torticat at 8:06 PM on June 25, 2013 [5 favorites]

I bumped into John Slattery on the backlot of Paramount back in 2010, as he was planning shots on their New York City streets for one of the episodes he directed in Season Four. It never occurred to me that it wasn't made in New York before that, but now every time they do an outdoor scene, I'm keenly aware of it. (Also, I literally cannot watch Community without noticing every part of the Paramount lot they use.)
posted by crossoverman at 8:08 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

jokeefe, the sad thing is that when Mad Men started, I was working in television in New York and yet it still took an art director informing me of this fact to realize that.

I mean, you would think that if it was shot in New York, I would know someone who was working on it, or see their crew around town somewhere, or hear gossip from a shared vendor. But none of this occurred to me.

Then again, I will admit that sometimes I forget that it's a period show and there's no time machine involved, or that they can't, say, have Sharon Tate guest star because it's not actually 1968 right now.

The only episode so far that has really seemed true to the setting was the episode set during the aftermath of the MLK assassination. That episode seemed especially New Yorkish. Mostly I don't think a lot about where it takes place. Which is funny for a series that name-checks Madison Avenue in the title.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

and yet in that last scene there all the actors were, blinking into an unmistakably Southern Californian sun.

Yeah the lighting in any exterior scene is the tell.
posted by Sara C. at 8:26 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Maybe the property values are low since it's kind of inconvenient to have a film crew constantly blocking the street?

But if you bought the place you could stop using it for shoots, and problem solved.

Also, crews shoot all over the place here, all the time. There's nothing you can really do about it. It doesn't affect property values as far as I can tell.

Re the price, my guess is it's a location/neighborhood thing, which IMO tends to be a much bigger deal here than in New York where it's just understood that everything can be gentrified to order. Wealthy people are much less willing to try new neighborhoods. I was surprised when I moved how how not gentrified things are, especially since people tend to compare this or that neighborhood to way ritzier parts of NYC. Like I guess Silverlake is the "Williamsburg of LA", but someone who isn't independently wealthy could actually buy a house in Silverlake. Actual rich people are barely willing to go there, let alone live there, much less buy property there.
posted by Sara C. at 8:34 PM on June 25, 2013

and yet in that last scene there all the actors were, blinking into an unmistakably Southern Californian sun.

Yeah the lighting in any exterior scene is the tell.

I win a gold star when Sara C. acknowledges the stuff I notice re: scene lighting.
posted by sweetkid at 8:39 PM on June 25, 2013 [2 favorites]

I win a gold star when Sara C. acknowledges the stuff I notice re: scene lighting.

You're the Bob Benson to Sara C's Pete Campbell.
posted by crossoverman at 9:11 PM on June 25, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re: Whitman house neighborhood & property values.

In street view, it was not at all hard to find victorians in the area with obvious mainenance issues, starting with the front-porch mansard, or former mansard, on the next-door Thriller house.

Re: Stan's Hamms

They actually moved to the mountain man (with bear) after a long campaign featuring a cartoon bear and a summer-camp fake-indigenous reverse-grammar campaign: "From the land of sky blue water ... Hamms, the beer refreshing." The bear, weirdly, was created by an Ojibwa. Looking at the info I found just casually, it sure looks like the beer bear was strictly regional to the upper midwest and therefore I rule it actually unlikely that Stan would come up with the Grizzly Stan campaign from either NYC or LA in 1970 or 1971. But a beer drinkin' man can hope.
posted by mwhybark at 12:42 AM on June 26, 2013

As Sys Rq and The Underpants Monster noted...
posted by rewil at 6:37 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

I win a gold star when Sara C. acknowledges the stuff I notice re: scene lighting.

You're the Bob Benson to Sara C's Pete Campbell.

ONLY WITH TV STUFF OK LIKE TV INDUSTRY ACTUAL PRODUCTION
posted by sweetkid at 9:50 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm mostly just amazed at how much the power of that final scene rests on Kiernan Shipka being able to shoulder all the dramatic weight that her character has had to carry this season. It just wouldn't have worked otherwise.
posted by invitapriore at 9:58 AM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

totally. she is just something else.
posted by sweetkid at 10:01 AM on June 26, 2013

In street view, it was not at all hard to find victorians in the area with obvious mainenance issues, starting with the front-porch mansard, or former mansard, on the next-door Thriller house.

Yeah, that's kind of symptomatic of what I meant when I said that Los Angeles is less gentrified and wealthy people are much slower to experiment in changing neighborhoods than in New York. In New York a string of historic Victorians -- in almost any neighborhood -- would be worth two or three times what this one is, no matter what their condition or the condition of surrounding houses. They would have all been long ago snapped up by rich people, painstakingly restored, and the rich people would just send their kids to private school, order Fresh Direct, and get alarm systems. Within a year real estate developers would catch wind and start the engines of gentrification.

Whereas in Los Angeles these houses can sit derelict and relatively undervalued in neighborhoods that remain fringey despite being perfectly fine places to live, and there are probably ticky tacky tract houses in the Valley valued higher.

One upside, though, is that normal people can actually have decent places to live. So far be it from me to suggest there's something wrong with this picture.
posted by Sara C. at 10:03 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Aww TLo just got engaged
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Awwwwwwwww

This better not delay MadStyle.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 AM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Seriously they need to remember their priorities
posted by The Whelk at 10:09 AM on June 26, 2013 [4 favorites]

I didn't get a good look at Ellery's picture of Grandpa Roger during the episode. Talk about hammering home the conflation of gifts and parental love. Switch the money bags for Hershey bars and you've got your ad art right there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:04 AM on June 26, 2013 [3 favorites]

Looking at the info I found just casually, it sure looks like the beer bear was strictly regional to the upper midwest

Huh. I grew up in central California in the '80s (didn't even see any of the Midwest until well after 2000) and distinctly remember hearing the "beer refreshing" ad & seeing the bear then.
posted by psoas at 1:55 PM on June 26, 2013

Also, Mad Style is up and I'm kind of surprised to see there's not much of a grand summing-up of the season's themes (apart from "green and blue signals infidelity, we said so before, look it up").
posted by psoas at 1:57 PM on June 26, 2013

From the style recap: Sally is struggling under the weight of being Sally Whitman: what?

Like seriously what? I do not see that at all.
posted by sweetkid at 2:00 PM on June 26, 2013

They are right on about Bobby looking fresh as hell at the end there though.
posted by invitapriore at 2:32 PM on June 26, 2013

They made a good catch on Sally and Dick being dressed alike; I didn't see that. And I reluctantly concede that they have a point about the Drapers matching. I have a fondness for Megan, but I want that marriage to be over. Hence, I guess, I choose to interpret it as "they match because they agree that the marriage is over," insofar as I read this kind of thing literally. (After all, if I'm not mistaken, Roger and Jane were literally dressed alike when they admitted that they were done -- matching towel turbans, definitely, and weren't there matching robes?)

I'd caught Peggy's interview dress, but hadn't remembered that Joan's partnership (and the leopard-print blouse that "In Care Of" calls back to) and Peggy's interview were in the same episode.

I found myself reading a lot into this week's leopard blouse, all restrictive and polyester-y and extremely conservative in its cut in contrast to the sexiness of its pattern -- and with the prominent bow at the back. Can't look at that kind of thing on MM anymore without thinking of a noose. It just screamed discomfort and anxiety.
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:35 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

I guess, I choose to interpret it as "they match because they agree that the marriage is over," insofar as I read this kind of thing literally.

Haha, me too. They keep toying with us on this. When Don said, "I don't want to be here anymore" I'm sure we were all supposed to think he meant 'this marriage' not 'New York'
posted by sweetkid at 2:43 PM on June 26, 2013

They do, and I certainly did.

Oh -- also, even though the Drapers match, they're carrying through on their recent theme of being dressed in different registers at home. Don's in a suit, Megan's in casual pants and a sweater.
posted by thesmallmachine at 2:54 PM on June 26, 2013

Although I did agree with T&Lo that Stan seemed to step things up dramatically both actually caring about work wise and clothes wise

here’s sudden Company Man Stan, decked out in his finest, with a touch of SC&P orange in his tie. Stan’s outfit is the first outfit this season that we’d wear ourselves today. It’s one of those rare moments where 1968-stylish and 2013-stylish mean the same thing. It’s hard for a costume designer to do that.

I saw some comments here about him looking pasty and disheveled or something and was like huh?

And yeah, Stan still seems both of his time and someone I would be working with in 2013, which yes is hard to do as a costume designer.
posted by sweetkid at 2:59 PM on June 26, 2013

Oh -- also, even though the Drapers match, they're carrying through on their recent theme of being dressed in different registers at home. Don's in a suit, Megan's in casual pants and a sweater.

They should dress them both in blue-collar work clothes. So the Drapers match the Carhartt.

*shows self out
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:07 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

Wait I thought for sure Mad Style would focus on Betty's pink nightie as a recall to "Shoot," the other time she was genuinely seen as a mom trying her best to protect her kids (by shooting at the neighbor's pigeons after said neighbor threatened their dog).

Isn't this "I can't give Sally what she needs" phone call the perfect recall to that? Then we get this:

Women wearing pink nightgowns or bathrobes was yet another persistent motif this season (again; feel free to cycle through the Mad Styles and see the examples), and we’re fairly confident it was meant to call back to the woman who took Don’s virginity while wearing a pink teddy. Betty looks pampered and mature and even a little silly here, while Megan serves as contrast in something boldly graphic, relatively simple in shape, and much more modern

Yeah does she look "pampered and silly" here?
posted by sweetkid at 3:19 PM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Where are they getting this Red White And Blue thing from? They seem to have pulled it out of nowhere, it doesn't seem meaningful in any way for the scenes they're talking about, and it's also at least 5 years too early for that sort of thing as a deliberate style statement.

The parallel costuming of Sally and Dick, though, well played. Though I think they're laying it on a bit thick with the "Sally Whitman" thing, since that's basically not how life works at all and ??????

It did suddenly occur to me this episode that Dick in this season's flashbacks is about the same age as Sally and going through a lot of the same things, which is interesting because over and over all season people have been commenting that the flashbacks were pointless. I think they just went straight over everybody's head.

Why are they so invested in schooling us all about how Peggy is actually a total FRUMP and ugh and 30 and so two years ago, etc? They say it every single time they talk about any Peggy outfit, it's rarely relevant, and they often are tripping over themselves so hard to mention it that they avoid actually saying anything at all about her clothes.
posted by Sara C. at 3:23 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

You guys it's 2013 Old Bob Benson can now legally marry!
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:31 PM on June 26, 2013 [5 favorites]

It's interesting that T & Lo mention Mary Tyler Moore, because I don't think any pop cultural figure represents both marriedness and singledom as much as she does.

Wasn't there a worry that, when she got her own show, people would think that it meant that Laura and Bob Petrie had gotten a divorce?

Alls I'm saying is that, when you want to send a message about a newly single career woman on her own in the big city, you think Mary Tyler Moore.

Draw your own conclusions about what that means for the Draper marriage.
posted by Sara C. at 3:40 PM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I kept feeling like the flashbacks were pointless at the time -- and I certainly haven't been rewatching them when I rewatch the episodes -- but the intentionality of them is pretty striking in retrospect. Sally gets to go to a rich kids' boarding school; Dick had a futile dream of going to a boarding school for orphans. Dick loses his virginity under circumstances of murky consent; Sally calls in Glen to beat up a boy who won't take "no" for an answer ("I've been with lots of girls; I know what I'm doing," with the gender reversed, might as well have been Aimee's line). They both caught their parents having illicit sex, of course. Is there any Dick parallel to the Grandma Ida incident?
posted by thesmallmachine at 3:44 PM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Stan was dressed up because he was trying to convince don oc h is idea but he still looks strung out why did he have to leave New York so quickly anyway
posted by The Whelk at 3:51 PM on June 26, 2013

why did he have to leave New York so quickly anyway

yeah no I agree with you but it was a noticeable step up for his gear.
posted by sweetkid at 4:01 PM on June 26, 2013

Alls I'm saying is that, when you want to send a message about a newly single career woman on her own in the big city, you think Mary Tyler Moore.

I think "That Girl" -- especially when Peggy is referred to as "(not) that girl" or "(not) one of those girls" or whatever, which seems to happen a lot.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:18 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

I remember watching That Girl (reruns, I am wayy too young) when I was a kid. I totally didn't see how progressive it was. I remember one episode where she was so poor she made tomato soup with ketchup and hot water.
posted by sweetkid at 4:24 PM on June 26, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, "That Girl" is more of a Peggy type story.

The interesting thing is that, in Peggy saying she's "not that girl" in this episode, she is exactly transitioning out of a That Girl type journey and into something else. Her entire story up to this point has been that of a little girl trying to make it in the big city. Peggy isn't looking for the groovy boyfriend or the kicky haircut that go along with that story anymore. She wants a pair of pants and the corner office, now.
posted by Sara C. at 4:33 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

while you were ruminating about Peggy I was watching this fascinating thing re: That Girl nostalgia
posted by sweetkid at 4:52 PM on June 26, 2013

It struck me-- correct me if I'm wrong-- that Don and Megan repeated the "I can't be here right now" line to each other. Don in the morning after the bender, and Megan before she walked out. I'd say the marriage is done, yes?
posted by jokeefe at 7:07 PM on June 26, 2013

%n: "Wasn't there a worry that, when she got her own show, people would think that it meant that Laura and Bob Petrie had gotten a divorce?"

Rob. Rob Petrie.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:53 PM on June 26, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think "That Girl" -- especially when Peggy is referred to as "(not) that girl" or "(not) one of those girls" or whatever, which seems to happen a lot.

I'm sure that you're right, that some of those are "That Girl"/Marlo Thomas references, but not all of them. "One of those girls" is a turn of phrase that comes up a lot on the show, sometimes but not always in reference to Peggy. Off the top of my head:

When Peggy starts putting on [pregnancy] weight, the younger men around the office dismiss her as "one of those girls" who diet down to slimness before they start working there. Peggy's blind date, the potato-chip driver, tells her off for her haughtiness, saying "you can act like you're from Manhattan, but you don't look like those girls!"

When Peggy decides to move to Manhattan, to reduce her commute (and probably to get a little distance from her overbearing family), Anita asks "You're going to be one of those girls?" Peggy replies "I am one of those girls." I think this is probably the closest to a full-on "That Girl"/MTM-before-MTM reference; Peggy is finally seeing herself as a the first glimmer of what Duck later calls her, "a freewheeling career gal with great ideas. This is your time!" (When she hears Peggy is moving to Manhattan, Peggy's mother Catherine, ever the beam of sunshine, predicts crisply "Yer gonna get raped.")

Later in the same episode, Joan effortlessly sums up Peggy's lifestyle ambitions as one of those girls while giving her advice for her roommate advertisement: "This is about two young girls in Manhattan. This is about an adventure. Am I wrong? If it were me, I would say something like 'fun-loving girl, responsible sometimes. Likes to laugh. lives to love. Seeks size 6 for city living and general gallivanting. No dull moments or dull men tolerated.' Or something like that!")

When Peggy and Joan discuss Megan's resignation, Joan tartly dismisses her ambitions, saying Megan will be "a failing actress with a rich husband." Peggy defends her, saying Megan seems like she's good at everything; "I think she's just one of those girls." Joan says "Then you had every right to be hard on her," and goes on to diss Betty Draper for being a model when Don met her and scoffs "that's the kind of girl Don marries."

When Pauline confronts Betty about her no-shows at Henry's events, she urges Betty to get a prescription so she can slim down and "get back into that incredible closet of yours. It'll be easy for you. You're just one of those girls."

Maybe it doesn't mean anything, even unintentionally. It could just be a little tic of the lexicon; after all, it's a common phrase. And as I've been rewatching "The Sopranos," I've noticed some repetition of could-be-portentous phrasing between "Mad Men" and the later Matthew Weiner years of "The Sopranos." (I'm embarrassed to admit that none spring to mind, even though I pointed out two or three to The Fella just this week.)

But there it is, over and over, used to refer to three different characters with different arcs and different ambitions.
posted by Elsa at 7:56 PM on June 26, 2013 [5 favorites]

I tend to equate Peggy with Mary because they both started out planning to be secretaries, and had an older male mentor figure see something in them and steer them onto another path.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:38 PM on June 26, 2013

Stan didn't actually get the Cakifornia gig, though, I think. He just wanted to.

Additional point of data re Mountain Man Stan: Jon Voight's jacket, Midnight Cowboy. Which is even a further reach than Needle Park but at least we have a concrete borrowed element. I guess Ginsberg is Rizzo.
posted by mwhybark at 11:13 PM on June 26, 2013

If MadMen actually did move to California
posted by peppermind at 5:18 AM on June 27, 2013

I've been listening to various Mad Men podcasts (really, obsessive at this point). I discovered a positively delightful one...TalkShoe's Mad Men and Women podcast. Brother and sister (Matt and Ashlee) have insightful and hilarious banter about the show. I've only listened to the shorter immediate reactions to the finale episode — it's not very deep and really all over the place — but it is completely adorable and I'm now looking forward to enjoying the others. Love these people.
posted by iamkimiam at 7:47 AM on June 27, 2013 [2 favorites]

So, perhaps rather randomly, I just found myself thinking about what Don says to Peggy in the hospital, in the context of where each character is at now:

"This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened."

That attitude and approach is unraveling for Don. Will it hold true for Peggy? What is different about Peggy that could allow her to move forward? Will it come up if she has kids?

Discuss. Show your work.
posted by dry white toast at 10:24 AM on June 28, 2013 [1 favorite]

One thing that is different about Peggy's situation is that a lot of women experienced it. Getting pregnant out of wedlock before Roe v. Wade gave you these options:

1. Have a baby you don't want. Find a way to raise it, despite the stigma and the fact that it will crush all your dreams.

2. Have the baby and give it up for adoption. A pretty harrowing* and stigmatized situation to be in, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

3. Have a dangerous illegal abortion. After 1969 in New York, you also had the option to have a safe, legal abortion if you were willing to testify before a judge that you deserved one. So you basically had to go before a judge and either say you were raped or that the child was a product of incest, or you had to completely impugn your own character as an "unfit mother", which was something that could stay with you for life.

So Peggy would have been in good company in terms of women who had been through this. I still don't think it was talked much about, and it would still be a hard thing for her, personally, to carry around her whole life. But it's not a Big Secret Forever that will always be hanging over her, potentially ruining her life and the lives of everyone close to her. Also, in a few years the Women's Lib movement will make exorcising this particular demon a lot easier for women like Peggy.

I mean, I don't want to say that her path is easy, or that she's lucky, or that this is positive. But it's just not even remotely as damaging as some of the other secrets on the show, and there's a sea change coming very soon that will make it much less of a big deal.

I don't think you can really see Don as being representative of a lot of men who had deserted from the military or stolen other people's identities, and really going forward it gets harder and harder to hide something like that as the culture shifts from We Don't Talk About That to the kind of open casual frankness that is the norm today. As the Strong Silent Type dies out, Don's secret gets more and more vulnerable as people start to wonder what he's hiding behind all that silence. As the same cultural shift happens for women, Peggy's secret becomes less and less damning.

* Patti Smith got pregnant as a teenager living in New Jersey in the mid 60's, gave the baby up, and talks a little bit about it in her book, Just Kids. Which is also a BRILLIANT background document for our current period of Mad Men, in general, as after the baby she moves to New York and takes up with artists surrounding the Chelsea Hotel and Andy Warhol's circle. Also I'm always telling EVERYONE to read Just Kids, because it's a great book, in general.
posted by Sara C. at 10:42 AM on June 28, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think it's Joan who has the hard row to hoe on her own "this never happened" secret, that of who Kevin's father is. I mean, eventually somebody's going to do the math there.
posted by Sara C. at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2013 [1 favorite]

I just remembered that Joan had two previous terminations before walking out of the abortionist's office knowing that she was carrying Roger's child... and I actually think her ex-husband will quietly get killed in Vietnam, and Roger will be around as "family friend" and sort-of adopted uncle. It wasn't that unusual a situation.
posted by jokeefe at 12:49 PM on June 29, 2013

It's not that unusual a situation, but even now, cheating on your spouse while he's off fighting a war, getting pregnant by your boss, and raising the child as if said child is your husband's is not something that is likely to go over well with most people. It's still something that would be considered a huge dangerous secret that could blow up in your face at any moment.

Compare to Peggy's Big Secret which nowadays would be not a terribly big deal, and which is the sort of thing that many feminists spoke out about during the Women's Liberation movement which is right around the corner in series time.
posted by Sara C. at 2:54 PM on June 29, 2013

Guys there's no Mad Men tomorrow and I have no idea what to do with my life.
posted by The Whelk at 3:10 PM on June 29, 2013 [7 favorites]

I'm running away to California.
posted by sweetkid at 3:11 PM on June 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm just treating treatments for a fictional wonder woman series
posted by The Whelk at 3:19 PM on June 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

atta boy

Art and I have been harassing Mr. The_Whelk with absurdist superhero mashups using Mad Men characters (well, Don) on Twitter. I dunno if I can keep it up for six months, though.
posted by mwhybark at 3:41 PM on June 29, 2013

also, where are the mugs we were promised?
posted by mwhybark at 3:41 PM on June 29, 2013

The only superhero mad Men mashup I will tolerate is SC&P being hired to be the new firm to rehab Stark Industries' image and reputation.
posted by The Whelk at 3:44 PM on June 29, 2013

Didn't John Slattery play Tony's father in the original Ironman? There's gotta be potential there. Did Tony get his penchant for one liners from Roger?
posted by peppermind at 4:03 PM on June 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

He was Elder Stark in IronMan 2 yes, something I found unreasonably delightful.
posted by The Whelk at 4:25 PM on June 29, 2013

Mr. The_Whelk went to Twitter to get this Stark campaign rolling. Well, who are we up against? Te big guys, right? They just want us to show some fucking leg, as usual.

OK, OK. Creative team is Stan and Ginsburg. Roger is the account man, his dad knew Tony's dad or maybe Tony's dad knew Roger from the war or something Plus, he saw The Golem. Don's secretly working with them from Pennsylvania. Nominally they are under Peggy but she hasn't met Tony yet. Stan called Don partly to kiss and make up and partly because he knows that Don was really into comics in Korea even though it was mostly EC SF that Don/Dick was into.

Stark's image is in the toilet because Stark went off during a press conference about how Vietnam is bullshit and Nixon is, like, paranoid-delusional. Cancelled contracts, GOP papers calling Tony a spoled crybaby brat, etc.

Ginsburg is torn. On the one hand, Iron Man. On the other hand, Tony Stark says Veetnamm is bullshit. On the other hand, Iron Man. He's on board.

Stan is conflicted but sees this as a way to land his own Marvel title, as Grizzly Adams.

Don is drawn to the project because, duh, secret identity and daddy issues.

I gotta go. More to come.
posted by mwhybark at 4:44 PM on June 29, 2013

How season six blew up the show and set the stage for the end
posted by crossoverman at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2013

Don't mess with Bob the James Wolk interview.
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 PM on June 29, 2013

I just watched the pilot. Everyone looks so damn young! What an amazing first episode, though.
posted by crossoverman at 11:15 PM on June 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

". . . and who can forget the magic of Bob Benson?"

No one. That's who. Bob Benson is all the magic.

Although, if he's not in the season 7 opener, I'm afraid I won't be able to help myself when I say to the TV: "But what about Bob?!"
posted by [insert clever name here] at 3:21 AM on June 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

I mostly did not like this season until the finale, which completely blew me away. I think it's the most cathartic episode ever and what a huge payoff. The discussion upthread of the campaigns centering on the products as the currency of love really got me thinking. That's the whole idea the office is grappling with in terms of Chevy during "The Crash."

I've been rewatching the season and it seems like the central theme is about the transactional nature of love, particularly between parents and children. Where do nurture and comfort cross over into exploitation?

It seems like everyone is playing out their parent and parenting issues and how that transfers to sexual/love relationships -- obviously Don and the prostitute who nursed him to health and then took his virginity (basically by raping him) but also him saying about the woman in charge of him "she's not my mother." But also Pete and his brother deciding not to spend the money looking for their mother, and then Pete basically abandoning his own daughter to move to California. When Ken is tap dancing, Don asks where he learned how to do that, and Ken says "My mother. No, my first girlfriend." Stan using Frank's daughter to dull his pain (and presumably she doing the same thing). Roger cutting off his daughter and SIL, and then trying to bribe his way back into Joan's life via Kevin. Megan forced to raise children who aren't her own. Trudy's refusal to believe her father has been with a prostitute because he supports her and Pete. The relationship between Ginsberg and his father (which actually seems like the most healthy/loving relationship between parent and adult child) resulting in Ginsberg never having an adult relationship with a woman. The burglar (Ida??) claiming to be Don's mother as a pretense to steal his gold watches. Sally making money to watch her younger brothers -- Betty says she "earned the skirt on a street corner" and "you're not a hired hand -- they're your brothers." Even Bob's speech to Pete -- saying if someone puts your well-being above everything else, isn't that all that matters? It seems no one is actually doing that. Either as parents or with their primary love interests.

The only time we've seen Don with Bobby is at the movies after MLK is shot, and he gives him candy (Milk Duds, I think). Then he comes home and has the revelation that it's the first time he really felt the love you are supposed to feel as a parent for your son. I think the looks between Don and Ted in the Hershey pitch were Don deciding to let Ted go to California because he realizes they both need to be better fathers to their sons. Ted will get away from Peggy and focus on his kids (both sons). Don will be forced to stay in New York where his kids will be closer and not just visit summers.

And actually, going on this theme, I think the use of "Both Sides Now" is Don looking at love as a child, who did not get what he needed and was neglected and used by adults, to him seeing love as a parent, recognizing that he has fallen short, and wanting to do better.

The season didn't make sense to me throughout but in hindsight it is really well crafted.
posted by loveyallaround at 8:13 AM on June 30, 2013 [4 favorites]

I'm just going to add a little bit more, since I'm still thinking about this, though it's doubtful anyone is still reading.

I'm roughly the same age as Matthew Weiner and we're both a little younger than baby Gene (if he were real and alive today). I think my generation's fathers were very similar to the Don Drapers in terms of them being mostly absent, involved in work or extramarital affairs, alcoholism, etc.

Unlike our own upbringing, many Gen X/Gen Y fathers are much more involved in their children's lives and that has become an expectation of parenting/co-parenting, I think. (We see the beginning of this trend with Ken giving up the Chevy account because he's about to be a father.) I think my post above assumes the theme is about parenting, but I think this season has actually centered on the men and their roles as fathers. None of the female characters' storylines center on their relationships with their parents and how it affects them as mothers, although we know Betty, Joan, Megan and Peggy all have strained relationships with their own parents.

I also think it's interesting that Betty blames Sally's acting out on her "coming from a broken home" but really the problem is Don's shitty parenting. Both Sally and Bobby clearly identify Henry as their father figure, not Don.
posted by loveyallaround at 11:38 AM on June 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

I also think it's interesting that Betty blames Sally's acting out on her "coming from a broken home" but really the problem is Don's shitty parenting. Both Sally and Bobby clearly identify Henry as their father figure, not Don.

I know Betty gets a lot more criticism than Don in this area, and this must be due to sexism to some degree, but let's not absolve Betty of her terrible parenting. To the extent the kids are fucked up, both are at fault. In the early seasons, Don's the only one of the two that seems to actually love his kids, though he expresses it in unfitting ways. Betty provides structure (somewhat stifling), but basically no affection.
posted by spaltavian at 2:45 PM on June 30, 2013

I know Betty gets a lot more criticism than Don in this area, and this must be due to sexism to some degree, but let's not absolve Betty of her terrible parenting.

I honestly believe that being married to Don turned Betty into the terrible person she was when they were married. And, frankly, given how much we know of how shitty a person Don can be to everyone - and especially to Betty - it alarms me that anyone would consider him the better parent. On any level.
posted by crossoverman at 3:51 PM on June 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

Oh yes, I totally agree Betty is very cold and not at all "motherly." I meant Don is a shitty father compared to Henry. (And, as far as that goes, Betty is a shitty mother compared to Megan.)
posted by loveyallaround at 5:16 PM on June 30, 2013

(And, as far as that goes, Betty is a shitty mother compared to Megan.)

Megan, the woman who left the kids alone in their Manhattan apartment. All care, no responsibility.
posted by crossoverman at 5:53 PM on June 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

Eh, Betty is mimicking the shitty, remote parenting she got ( I've tried everytng my mother would do....) and she's kind of casually shitty at it but seemingly getting better ( I think she weirdly enjoys the antagonistic teenage Sally relationship to a degree cause she can understand and contextualize it better, but that's me.) , Don's all big gestures and no follow through, everything will be better with ...a Dog! Disneyland! A new mom! And then he vanishes for weeks. Megan is solidly Big Sis/Babysitter, she's good with kids, and baseline decent, but she's got other things going on.
posted by The Whelk at 6:20 PM on June 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

Megan, the woman who left the kids alone in their Manhattan apartment. All care, no responsibility

Don did that. He bailed on Megan & the kids because he had to stay late at the office trying for the advertising breakthrough that would help him get Sylvia back.

Also, Sally's old enough to babysit. The problem was the door was accidentally left open--Don did that too.
posted by torticat at 8:38 PM on June 30, 2013 [4 favorites]

Yeah Don told Megan, whom he knew had other plans that evening, that he would be home soon and just got tied up at work. Megan figured Sally was old enough to be left alone for an hour without burning the house down ( and she offered to make dinner) and left.

Don actually came all the way home, had a moment listening to the radio, and the went back to work, while his non locking door habit lead to surprise Grandma Ida time.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on June 30, 2013

I honestly believe that being married to Don turned Betty into the terrible person she was when they were married. And, frankly, given how much we know of how shitty a person Don can be to everyone - and especially to Betty - it alarms me that anyone would consider him the better parent. On any level.

Well, if you are "alarmed", then you can rest easy knowing that I am not involved in the parenting of either Sally, Bobby or Gene Draper. And I didn't say Don was a better parent in my previous comment. I said they are both at fault. But since you took it to "on any level", Don doesn't hit or threaten his kids. I would say he's a billion times better parent in the physical abuse department.

In our modern age of 24/7 hyper-parenting, Don commits the biggest parenting sin, but I'll take a parent that's bad because they're never there over a parent that's bad because they're always there any day of the week.

Don's all big gestures and no follow through, everything will be better with ...a Dog! Disneyland! A new mom! And then he vanishes for weeks.

The worst part of "vanishing for weeks" of course, being that they were totally at Betty's mercy.

Megan, the woman who left the kids alone in their Manhattan apartment. All care, no responsibility.

Sally is 13 or 14, perfectly old enough to be left alone and babysit, provided the doors are actually closed.
posted by spaltavian at 8:48 PM on June 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

The overall feeling I get from the Draper kids is that they where increasily over time mostly left to fend for themselves, which feels right for the period, class, and situation they're in
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on June 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

I mean I've read memoirs of hard core rich NYC kids from that time period and the phrase " benign neglect" comes up a lot.
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on June 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

The overall feeling I get from the Draper kids is that they where increasily over time mostly left to fend for themselves, which feels right for the period, class, and situation they're in

I agree. Pitch perfect. Pre-latch-key kids.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:27 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

That attitude and approach is unraveling for Don. Will it hold true for Peggy? What is different about Peggy that could allow her to move forward?

In addition to what Sara mentions above I think a key difference is that for Don this became his life philosophy but Peggy only adopted it for a one-time do-over (albeit a rather large one). More often we see her dealing with her problems rather than "never-happening" them.
posted by mikepop at 5:26 AM on July 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

I said this before in the earlier Mad Men thread, but seemingly every review goes down the same path of more less "lying is bad". Yes, Don has made a hash of his family, and the massive wall he has constructed with everyone around him isolates him. But seriously, if you're born as Dick Whitman, honestly is not the best policy.

It would be weirdly patrician and somewhat un-American if the moral of the story is "Don has to die because Dick is real and Don is a lie". "You should have stayed the orphan of a drunk and a whore" is something Pete's father would say. Becoming Don was a good idea, and somewhat brave. (Whereas I keep reading about how "cowardly" it is in reviews.)

One of the many threads in Mad Men is the eclipse of the blue bloods, and the rise of a (slighly, to be sure) more meritocratic America. What thematic purpose does it serve to have Don, the most skilled, (and tied with Peggy, the most intelligent) person in the show to be cast out with "his kind"? Ditto Don hurling himself from a skyscraper as so many seem to speculate or want. Mad Men is not Death of Salesman, and losing Dick Whiman was not a tragedy. Don's an asshole, but who would you rather be? A scared, abused, ignorant little boy at the mercy of the world?

Don's problem is that he never stopped running, not that he ran from Dick Whitman. mikepop is on to something, when he says that Peggy used "this never happened" one time. She, and Dick, used it to escape life-destorying defeat. Don keeps uses it to escape regular life, because he never feels safe or at home. He never really feels close to anyone. This is not because of his lie, or because he's not Dick. It's because of all the things that happened to Dick Whitman are still burned into his mind. Don would be no better off emotionally if he stayed Dick; he'd be worse, because he wouldn't even have learned he was good at something.

In the last thread, someone disagreed with me saying that Don is just a mask for Dick. I feel more and more that this is not the case; Don is real, but the cancer of Dick's childhood is still wrapped around his heart.

Obviously, that AV Club article really irked me. In my view, the issue is not that Don has to die to so Dick can be free. The issue is that Dick's demons must finally be addressed so Don can be free. Whatever name he ends up with is unkown, but the fully realized man I assume we will see at the end is a "fixed Don Draper" not a "revealed Dick Whitman".

But maybe Weiner will disagree.
posted by spaltavian at 7:27 AM on July 1, 2013 [13 favorites]

um, that is kind of a really excellent analysis you've got there spitalvian. I'll be thinking about it.
posted by sweetkid at 7:39 AM on July 1, 2013

Also it only sort of matter if Weiner disagrees or not.
posted by sweetkid at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

There's a phrase I picked up on a few years ago that I've come to appreciate: "I/they loved you/me as best they could." It was actually used towards the end of Six Feet Under by Nate's mom to describe the way Nate treated Brenda.

Thinking of the parenting on the show in this context is interesting. I think it's true of Betty. Whatever her faults, she tries. Even if the resources she has to draw on are limited by how she was raised. I think it's open question of Don does his best most of the time. Though again, Don may not be that far out of the norm for the period.

I just finished re-watching Season 1, and two things stood out in terms of later parent/child relationships:

1) Betty seems like a really typical and not-horrible mother early on. Are we sure her horrible parenting wasn't more correlated to her anger at Don around the break up of their marriage? (Their even seems to be a subtle redemptive shift in her parenting after she makes peace with Don in the camp episode) Actually, a good alternate reading is that she's jealous of Megan, because she thinks she got the marriage to Don that Betty never did. She certainly used the kids to attack Megan. Maybe her mellowing coincides with her coming to pity Megan rather than envy her.
2) when Pete is obsessing over the Dick Whitman Box of Memories, Trudy tells him "my father had a box like that." There is a lot of evidence that her father is exactly like the Dons of the world, but his bond with his daughter still wins out because he didn't let the other stuff get in the way of it. From the love-as-transaction perspective, there is a type of contract between Trudy and her father that he can do whatever as long as he treats her like a princess. That contract is what scuppers Pete's attempt to use Mutually Assured Destruction to keep him as a client.
posted by dry white toast at 7:42 AM on July 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

Betty's early parenting always strikes me as really earnest. She's clearly overwhelmed with being alone with 2 kids all day, but she tries--for example, when she buys Sally a doll "from" baby Gene.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:05 AM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Becoming Don was a good idea, and somewhat brave. (Whereas I keep reading about how "cowardly" it is in reviews.)

Something occurred to me recently that gets to the heart of this duality.

Dick didn't have to switch dog-tags with a dead guy and steal his identity to "become" Don. In fact in that sense, he didn't "become Don Draper" at all. It's not like he went and tried to live that guy's life. I'm sure there are things in the real Don Draper's background that gave Dick privilege and resources he didn't have before, but in general you don't have to desert from the military or defraud anyone to do what Dick accomplished.

Both of my grandfathers are about Don Draper's age. Both of them grew up in very humble situations. Both of them were able to use institutions of the post-war period (the military, land grant colleges in need of football players) to become upwardly mobile and eventually have white collar jobs, stay at home wives, etc. Neither of my grandfathers had to steal a dead man's identity to do this.

So I can definitely see Don's big lie as a cowardly thing to do. Because he was a dumb kid who wasn't willing to wait out his tour in Korea and go to college on the GI Bill. He had to have everything NOW, screw whoever he hurt in the process. Switching those dog tags was a rash and cowardly thing to do, and Dick/Don has been running from it for his entire adult life. At this point it's an albatross more than it ever helped him.

I don't necessarily think that Don is fundamentally a coward, or a big bad liar villain. But I do think that one choice was a cowardly one, and in a lot of ways it poisoned Don's life as much as it helped him.
posted by Sara C. at 8:17 AM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Let's say Dick followed all the rules, and we sincerelu believe the promise of the GI Bill for someone like him. What does he become; what's the best he can do? The highest performer at a local Farmer's Savings Bank? The biggest Lothario is Scranton? Don's a borderline genius with ambition, I think he saw one chance to really escape and be took it.

I don't think he was entitled or impatient about it either. He didn't want it all "now"; next thing he does is start selling cars. He just wanted a clean break and a potential. Like he tells Bert during the initial merger, he "wants to work". He needs this sort of job to use his talent and deal with his demons; even the best possible Dick Whitman couldn't provide that.

I'm fine saying the identity switch was selfish, but I cannot wrap my head around cowardly.
posted by spaltavian at 9:08 AM on July 1, 2013

to become upwardly mobile and eventually have white collar jobs, stay at home wives, etc. Neither of my grandfathers had to steal a dead man's identity to do this.

That's true, Sara C. But I see Dick Whitman's actions as being more about survival than ambition. He was really out of the frying pan into the fire, escaping* from a childhood/adolescence in which he was emotionally, physically, and sexually abused into a situation in which he might die at any moment (so what was the point of escaping). Of course ALL the men who served their full tours faced imminent death; but I guess I feel like I can cut a kid a break who's been robbed since childhood of a lot of hope for survival, much less success in life.

*I'm a bit unclear on the timeline there, though. If Dick joined up in his mid-twenties, what did he do for the 5-7 years of his early adulthood?
posted by torticat at 9:23 AM on July 1, 2013

Well, my father's father went to Michigan State on the GI Bill and ultimately ended up a civil servant in a small Louisiana town. Interestingly, he had the more prosperous childhood of my two grandfathers. It's also pretty clear based on family circumstance that he took some career hits in order to be with my grandmother (they're from opposite sides of the country and met while he was in the Navy). He's also not that ambitious a guy. I think his original career goal was to be a history professor, which never happened for a variety of reasons.

My mother's father grew up absolutely dirt poor in a shack in Mississippi. He went to University of Florida on a football scholarship. After college he went into middle management in the oil industry. He and my grandmother basically lived the Don and Betty Draper dream all over Texas and Louisiana (you move around a lot in the oil industry). He was never at Dallas levels of power, but he did well for himself and the family moved a lot in service to his career. Think Don Draper if he wasn't made partner in Season 1.

A lot of this stuff is regional, too. Both my grandfathers grew up in isolated rural areas that are far more insular than rural PA is. There was not a chance in HELL that they were moving to New York to work in advertising. My father's father probably could have, I guess, but he happened to fall in love with a woman from Louisiana, and again, he's not that ambitious.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

into a situation in which he might die at any moment

Sure, but so did a lot of other people. Plenty of other men went to Korea and survived to tell the tale. I think that's why Don is so often tarred with the "cowardly" brush. If he had told some other kind of lie, or if it was a lie with different stakes, the shoe wouldn't fit as well. But yeah, enlisting in the army and stealing the identity of a dead man to get out of it when you realize "wait a sec, this is a WAR..." is not really a brave or noble thing to do.

Again, I don't think Don is a cowardly person, or evil, or anything. But he made a very cowardly choice, and it turned out to be a double edged sword. And the degree to which he later distinguished himself has little to do with that cowardly choice -- presumably the ability to climb to the top of the ad industry was something he always had in him. He couldn't have gotten that from a dog tag.
posted by Sara C. at 9:30 AM on July 1, 2013

But yeah, enlisting in the army and stealing the identity of a dead man to get out of it when you realize "wait a sec, this is a WAR..." is not really a brave or noble thing to do.

Maybe there was something else I missed; but he's not "really" a deserter. Legally, sure. But his actual injuries were enough to get sent home, right? They just thought they were sending Draper home, rather than Whitman.
posted by spaltavian at 9:33 AM on July 1, 2013

I want to tell you guys that last night I had this really vivid dream where there was a series of Mad Men licensed novels (written by Ken Cosgrove's various pseudonyms, of course) which were all just like period working-girl literature, complete with retro vintage covers and I was reading one to prepare for applying to write them (they even smelled like old books) and when I woke up I was very sad that it wasn't true.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:36 AM on July 1, 2013 [5 favorites]

I wasn't under that impression. If that's the case, why have him keep up the charade after getting home? Was it only to get away from his family?

My understanding was that, while Dick was injured, because it was so early in his service, they would have let him recuperate and then sent him back. Or put him in a position that he was more suitable for after being injured. Don gets to go home, because he's only months away from the end of his tour.
posted by Sara C. at 9:36 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Was it only to get away from his family?

I think getting away from his family was a huge part of it. Huger, I think, than the advantages he was possibly going to get from the identity exchange. He just didn't want to be that guy from that life anymore.

It's like, my parents are immigrants from a "third world" country, and people always assume (fairly) that they came to the US for "opportunities" whereas I think for my father, he really just wanted to get away from his family.
posted by sweetkid at 9:46 AM on July 1, 2013

Actually I recognize several things about my father in Draper. Then again, I also identify with the family dynamics in The Sopranos.

It's not as weird/pathological/illegal as it sounds, but it's interesting..
posted by sweetkid at 9:48 AM on July 1, 2013

He just didn't want to be that guy from that life anymore.

Yeah, but plenty of American men used the military and new college opportunities opening up to the working and lower-middle classes to do that.

I definitely get that, in stealing Don Draper's identity, Dick Whitman realized he didn't have to be That Guy From That Life. That's the good/noble/understandable part of it. The flip side is that he didn't have to do such an awful thing in order to stop being that guy, and what he didn't foresee is that the particular way he stopped being that guy could potentially ruin his life.

It's like if Crime And Punishment ended with Raskolnikov never getting caught, and in fact thriving and becoming a prosperous upstanding member of the community. The hitch is, he has to live with what he did every single day, until he dies.

A lot of people took advantage of the upheaval of the post-war era to leave their old selves behind. Whether that's fighting a war, or going to college, or moving to Hawaii, or emigrating. Not all of them had to defraud and hurt and lie to do it.
posted by Sara C. at 10:02 AM on July 1, 2013

Just thought of something:

Don Draper is the inverse of Walter White.

Discuss.
posted by Sara C. at 10:03 AM on July 1, 2013

A lot of people took advantage of the upheaval of the post-war era to leave their old selves behind. Whether that's fighting a war, or going to college, or moving to Hawaii, or emigrating. Not all of them had to defraud and hurt and lie to do it.

He didn't want to just leave poverty or workingclassness behind, he didn't want to be Dick Whitman son of a prostitute, guy who saw his father die in front of him, etc etc. Those kids on GI bills still went home to carve the turkey for Thanksgiving etc. He did it to literally wipe the slate clean, not only to get some perks.

I don't think there's anything noble about it, either, I just don't think "he could have just done the GI bill" is really a complete substitution for his underlying motives.
posted by sweetkid at 10:08 AM on July 1, 2013

I guess it hinges on whether he no longer wanted to be Dick Whitman, or whether it was really more about not ever seeing those people again, not raising his family that way, not having a constant stream of poor relations asking for handouts, etc.

There's nothing keeping Dick Whitman from changing his name and moving to California and basically becoming Don Draper without the lying/defrauding part. That said, I don't think Dick Whitman was capable of knowing that you could do that, if you wanted to. He needed the crutch of this particular choice in this particular situation. Which is part of what makes it sort of a cowardly and shitty choice. He does it out of weakness. It's a reaction to something that offers itself in the moment. In a way, it's a very passive way of making that choice.

Then again, this gets to issues I have with the way that Dick is characterized on the show, vs. the way that Don is. Names aside, they're the same person. You can say that the identity switch is the moment that Dick realizes he can be more than just a whore's kid, but, like, where does all this come from? The way Dick is characterized and portrayed -- even as a teenager and in early adulthood -- is so derpy. If he really was that stupid, all the identity theft in the world isn't going to make him partner at an ad agency. If he really was NOT that stupid, why did he make such a stupid and rash choice?
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I agree, there isn't much to hint at Don Draper in Dick Whitman. Dick Whitman is totally derpy.
posted by sweetkid at 10:27 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

He looked like he was trying really hard to perfect the classic hard-faced Don Draper stare in the scene with the ejected preacher.
posted by invitapriore at 10:39 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

I kinda caught that - I don't know if it was limitations of the actor or what but I didn't really buy it.
posted by sweetkid at 10:42 AM on July 1, 2013

But even in that moment, he's just so passive.

I mean, that scene is his stepdad/uncle/pimp kicking a preacher out of the house. Dick just... stands on the porch and watches him go. That's it.

Not that I thought the scene demanded action from Dick, but almost every time we see Dick, he's doing something passive. Even things that other teenagers and young men would do in a somewhat active way, Dick is passive. Dick loses his virginity passively. He's the most passive soldier in the history of the military (no wonder they put him on ditch digging patrol). When he's discovered by Anna working at the car dealership, all he can really do is gawp*. It's not really until he meets Roger Sterling that he stops being a total derp at all times.

It occurred to me that teenage Sally Draper is shown as having so much more agency than teenage Dick Whitman, and is shown actually USING what little voice she has to get what she wants. In that sense, I think Tom & Lorenzo were way off base in saying that she's ultimately Sally Whitman. If the Whitmans are a bunch of trench digging kicked-in-the-head-by-a-horse derps, then, no, she's definitely not one of them.

*That said, I haven't seen this scene or much of the Anna stuff in a while, so I'm prepared to be wrong on this.
posted by Sara C. at 11:31 AM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Dude, he stole Don Draper's identity passively. Passivity is Dick Whitman's whole deal.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:39 AM on July 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

I wasn't under that impression. If that's the case, why have him keep up the charade after getting home? Was it only to get away from his family?

I got the impression that he stole the identity to "never-happen" Dick Whitman out of existence. He didn't just wanted to be someone else - He wanted Dick Whitman dead and gone, and to never have to deal with that life/family again. When his brother found him well established in his new life, Don could have reconnected with him and spun some story about his new identity. Instead he tries to pay him off to keep him gone forever.

I think Dick was going home one way or the other after the explosion/injuries, but a major factor in the identity switch was the payout. Draper was a higher rank and had more service than Whitman, so Draper's discharge/disability checks where going to be bigger. Add that to the fact that his family wouldn't ever go looking for a dead man and that's two good reasons for Dick to take over Don's identity vs. just move to another city and assume a name and start over.
posted by mikepop at 11:57 AM on July 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

If the Whitmans are a bunch of trench digging kicked-in-the-head-by-a-horse derps, then, no, she's definitely not one of them.

I just can't stop laughing at this.
posted by sweetkid at 12:43 PM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

I meant to get into this with y'all earlier, but got busy and am only getting to it now. Dick knew Don for all of 24 hours before the attack. He couldn't know enough about Draper to think he was trading a bad life for a good one. He didn't even know he was married. I think that switching dog-tags with Draper was impulsive. Whitman did it because it meant his family would think he was dead and he didn't think it through further than that.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:43 PM on July 1, 2013 [7 favorites]

agree
posted by sweetkid at 12:46 PM on July 1, 2013

Maybe he would have stayed derpy...but then he met Anna. Maybe just having a friend was enough to get him coming up with ad copy and screwing around with ideas of being an ad man. Nobody had ever believed in him before.
posted by Biblio at 1:28 PM on July 1, 2013

I think that switching dog-tags with Draper was impulsive.

Yep.

Regarding Dick's passivity as a child, I think we can see that as a result of being really beaten down. Look what his stepmother did when she found out that other prostitute had taken his "cherry"--started whacking him about the head with a wooden spoon, didn't she? And when he was sick she sent him to the cellar so he wouldn't infect anyone else. The kid was really abused.

Sally's childhood was nothing like this. Betty might have slapped her and stuck her in the closet, but she also bought her toys and riding boots. And nice clothes and food and a comfortable bed, of course. Sally had a platform of comfort and security from which to start using her voice that Dick Whitman was never given.

Dick's switching dog tags is similar to Joan's sleeping with Herb. He is desperate enough just to seize the chance when it appears, morality/what-other-people-might-think be damned. And both of them live with the fallout of their choices--though I don't think either would do it differently if they were given the chance again in the same circumstances.

I think that Dick/Don's move from passivity to ambition also parallels Joan's somewhat. Like, they both grab that initial opportunity. And from there, they eventually realize they can take the next step... in Don's case, hoodwinking Roger into a job; in Joan's, stealing an account from Pete. Joan's line "I had to do it that way" speaks for them both, and her determination to keep what she's won is similar to Don's as well.

(n.b. I think Joan deserved that account, and Don probably deserved the job. But they both took underhanded routes to get there.)
posted by torticat at 3:37 PM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

...but to repeat my earlier question, do we know what Dick did in his early twenties? And why do we know (well, according to wikipedia anyway) that he was in his mid-twenties when he enlisted, as opposed to say 18?
posted by torticat at 3:40 PM on July 1, 2013

And why do we know that he was in his mid-twenties when he enlisted, as opposed to say 18

Nevermind, I guess his Depression childhood means he couldn't possibly have been as young as 18. But still it's weird, that long gap in what we know of his history; it seems like someone as desperate to get away from his family as Dick was would have found a way long before the Korean War.
posted by torticat at 4:08 PM on July 1, 2013

Maybe there was something else I missed; but he's not "really" a deserter. Legally, sure. But his actual injuries were enough to get sent home, right? They just thought they were sending Draper home, rather than Whitman.

I don't think he got sent home because of his injuries. The real Don Draper was only a few months from the end of his tour, so by switching identities, Dick got to go home instead of serving out his tour.
posted by donajo at 4:15 PM on July 1, 2013

Wikipedia says Dick was likely born Dec/Jan 1925/26, and I can follow the character reference points that establish this. But, as we've noted before, this timeline is tough to accept. The Korean war ran from 1950 to 1953, and we have Dick enlisting during that event. The article, and I think the series, does not mention if he was drafted but leaves the impression he volunteered. So that raises another question: if Dick turned eighteen in December 1943, wouldn't that be right at the height of the need for volunteers and draftees during World War II?
posted by mwhybark at 4:47 PM on July 1, 2013

Maybe:

"Total number of inductees for WWII (1940-1946) including draftees before Pearl Harbor: 10,110,114

By Year:
1940 - 18,633
1941 - 923,842
1942 - 3,033,361
1943 - 3,323,970
1944 - 1,591,942
1945 - 945,862
1946 - 183,383"

Looks like we need monthly data for '43 and '44.
posted by mwhybark at 4:51 PM on July 1, 2013

wouldn't that be right at the height of the need for volunteers and draftees during World War II?

Huh. So why didn't the story have him pulling his identity swap during WW2? It would make more sense that he got out of rural PA at that age. Then he could dick around (ha) selling cars or furs or whatever for a number of years after the war before meeting Betty and then Roger.
posted by torticat at 5:07 PM on July 1, 2013

I thought Roger was in WWII and Dick/Don were in Korea.

FWIW, my dad was too young to be in WWII but was in Korea. He was about Dick's age.
posted by loveyallaround at 5:29 PM on July 1, 2013

Regarding Dick's passivity as a child, I think we can see that as a result of being really beaten down. Look what his stepmother did when she found out that other prostitute had taken his "cherry"--started whacking him about the head with a wooden spoon, didn't she? And when he was sick she sent him to the cellar so he wouldn't infect anyone else. The kid was really abused.

It's not so much that I don't understand how Dick Whitman could be so passive. Yes, he was abused as a child. And, of course, the vast majority of all of humanity is "passive" according to the terms we're setting for Dick Whitman. I'm pretty passive, myself, and was not abused as a child.

It's just a very strange choice, for a television show. It's pretty rare that any narrative is going to portray its protagonist as a passive victim with no agency. The only modern day exceptions that come to mind for me, in TV anyway, are Don Draper and Walter White. And both of those characters are defined by formative experiences wherein they are (somewhat passively) presented with a choice to continue in their passive ways and accept whatever bullshit the world throws at them, or to commit a crime that will force them to take the driver's seat in their own lives.

On Breaking Bad, the way the show handles this is to put that formative moment in the show's pilot episode, and then speed forward with their newly riled up protagonist, leaving boring old Walter White, science teacher and part time car wash employee, behind as quickly as possible.

But Mad Men is a little different, because Don's past, the Dick character, isn't seen in the beginning and then left behind, he's revealed only through flashbacks. And the more the show reveals, the more complete the puzzle becomes. Which makes this whole "passive Dick Whitman" thing a pretty serious weak spot for the show. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the show is doing things, necessarily, but man, is it weird. And by extension, it makes the characterization of Don Draper a pretty strange thing.
posted by Sara C. at 6:27 PM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

We only see Dick Whitman being passive as a child. Naturally the characterization is going to be different of an abused child than of a man ten years later. In the meantime, he took some steps to gain some control of his life (enlisting being the most significant) and slowly became aware of his own strength; but it took him a while even after Korea to work his way up to the con he played on Sterling. He was a low-level salesman for years. The success of the Don Draper ruse and then the winning over of Betty Hofstadt no doubt increased his confidence.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to me. Or maybe I'm not understanding what it is you're seeing as a flaw in the characterization.
posted by torticat at 7:03 PM on July 1, 2013

(ww2/korea)

I wonder if Weiner's original thoughts for the character did place him in WW2 but as it became clear the series would be a meditation on America in the 1960s it became clear that placing the character in Korea would be beneficial to the show with respect to giving the character his preternatural ability to resonate with issues of the moment, as well as drawing a distinction from Roger. But since the backstory relies on Depression-era experiences, the character's childhood could not be shifted too far forward, and we end up noting these minor timeline discrepancies.

either that, or it's neither Bob nor Bobby who is the Time Lord here, but instead the emptysouled rogue himself.

(Mr. The_Whelk has ruled against any underwear pervert crossovers save the Stark Industries Marvel SuperMega Special I started above but I have to share one:

Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are Dick Whitman and Don Draper.

Please note that this may also help to explain what Dick and Don were up to between 1940 and 1950. Once Capatin Marvel lost the lawsuit, Dick had to enroll in the Army instead of shouting SHAZAM any time some hoor started rubbin' on his coal-grubbin' parts.)
posted by mwhybark at 7:37 PM on July 1, 2013

(I think I just inadvertently also retconned Captain Marvel into a fugue response brought on by child abuse)
posted by mwhybark at 7:38 PM on July 1, 2013

Re Don's age and WW2 vs. Korea, my guess is that someone threw out "Don Turns 40!" in a writer's meeting and nobody did the math.

So little of Don's timeline makes any sense that I've stopped expecting there to be a reason for any of it.

I know this is weird, from the standpoint of a show that gets so much right, but it's all I've got. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense.
posted by Sara C. at 7:46 PM on July 1, 2013

I feel like this has been clarified by now, but I just realized -- are we sure that Dick Whitman was born in '26, and not the original Don Draper? Lt. Draper was quite a bit older than Dick in the Korea flashbacks.

Is it possible that Don was 18-20 when he left for Korea, and magically 26 when he got home?
posted by Sara C. at 7:54 PM on July 1, 2013 [3 favorites]

So, I'm rewatching The Hobo Code, mostly because I don't remember which first season episode has all the Dick/Don switcheroo stuff and maybe it's this one. And while I haven't gotten any insights into Don Draper's character yet, it has been confirmed for me by Pete Campbell that anyone who complains about the speed of an elevator by saying, "Wow, we really took the local..." is a dick.
posted by Sara C. at 8:01 PM on July 1, 2013

Nixon Vs Kennedy (season 1, episode 11, I think?) has the scenes in Korea.
posted by donajo at 8:11 PM on July 1, 2013

I feel like this has been clarified by now, but I just realized -- are we sure that Dick Whitman was born in '26, and not the original Don Draper? Lt. Draper was quite a bit older than Dick in the Korea flashbacks.

Alright, from wikipedia:
"Pete discovers from his friend Russ in the State Department [in season 1: "Nixon vs. Kennedy"] that the real Don Draper would be 43 years old. The presidential election was held on November 8, 1960, making the real Draper's birth year 1917— thus making him eight or nine years older than Dick Whitman."

I feel like it would make more sense for Dick to have enlisted at 18, in terms of his personal life story. But that would put his birth date at '32-'35, for him to be enlisting for Korea. Which would mean his 8 to 14yo years would not have been during the Depression.

The only other problem AFAIK with his being that young is that, yeah, there is the episode when he turns 40, putting his birthdate in the mid-'20s. Though of course he could have been lying about his age at that point.
posted by torticat at 8:18 PM on July 1, 2013

I feel like this has been clarified by now, but I just realized -- are we sure that Dick Whitman was born in '26, and not the original Don Draper? Lt. Draper was quite a bit older than Dick in the Korea flashbacks.

I think so? Doesn't Pete comment at some point at how "well preserved" he is, implying that he should be quite a bit older?
posted by donajo at 8:18 PM on July 1, 2013

Nuts, beaten to the punch.
posted by donajo at 8:19 PM on July 1, 2013

Re Don's age and WW2 vs. Korea, my guess is that someone threw out "Don Turns 40!" in a writer's meeting and nobody did the math.

Right. But it is so weird, on a show that pays such attention to trivial detail and in which the central conceit is a guy with a false identity, that they wouldn't do the math. It's so basic. And really, if they'd had him EITHER serving in WW2 instead of Korea, OR having an impoverished-but-not-Depression-era childhood, it would all work out fine.
posted by torticat at 8:25 PM on July 1, 2013

Yeah, after 10 minutes of Pete and Peggy and Ayn Rand, I went to the Mad Men Wiki and realized I need to be watching Nixon vs. Kennedy. Which I am, and I have one thing to say:

The writers are consistent on Trudy's dad being a perv, but I still don't understand how old Don Draper is and why he didn't fight in WW2.

But that would put his birth date at '32-'35, for him to be enlisting for Korea.

My grandfather who fought in Korea was born in 1930. That said, I think he enlisted after high school, before the war, and just happened to be in the Navy on his one and only tour of duty when war broke out. Which was probably better for him, in the end.

It's interesting that people who fought in WW2 (4 years, for Americans) and Korea (3, if even?) were so psyched to sign the next few generations up for endless bloodbaths overseas.
posted by Sara C. at 8:26 PM on July 1, 2013

an impoverished-but-not-Depression-era childhood

Are we super duper 100% sure that what we're seeing as "The Depression" isn't like 1938 or 1940?

That said, there was just an insert shot in Nixon Vs. Kennedy of a photo of an adult Dick Whitman that reads "Adam and Dick, 1944". I guess maybe they're intending Jon Hamm to be passing for 15, but more and more, the evidence is that the math works out, and Dick just didn't fight in WW2 for Reasons.
posted by Sara C. at 8:28 PM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Dick was passive because he had no agency after his father died. He basically became a piece of luggage his step mother had to haul around. His only role at the whorehouse was to stay out of the way. But at the same time, most kids in this situation become very good observers, and take in a lot because its really the only thing they have to do. Don probably remembers the things we see in the flashbacks with the same HD resolution we see them in, because he had all the time in the world to dwell on them and what they meant.

He also probably hates how passive he was in this phase of his life, like it disgusts him, which is why he acts so decisively in the ad man stage of his life.

As for his motivations for stealing Draper's identity, I don't think he wanted anybody looking for him. Uncle Mack strikes me as the type of guy who would come looking for Dick with a hand out.

Actually, it's interesting, if the one piece of Don's puzzle that we haven't seen is the stretch between the whorehouse and Korea, that would be a good period to use to illuminate Don's current circumstance in Season 7. Dick would have had to spend some of that time defining himself and gaining some control over his life. That sounds a lot like the point Don finds himself at in late 1968.
posted by dry white toast at 8:29 PM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

His only role at the whorehouse was to stay out of the way.

One thought I had watching the season finale -- where Dick is starting to look very much like a man, not a little boy -- and which has been amplified with all this How Old Is Don Draper stuff:

Dick is getting too old to just be a "piece of luggage" staying out of the way in the brothel.

I think usually the model here is for someone like Dick to start pimping women, himself.

If you do the math, there are years missing from Dick's timeline. Years in which all we really know is that he didn't serve in WW2.
posted by Sara C. at 8:35 PM on July 1, 2013

OK. Just finished Nixon vs. Kennedy.

- It is mentioned that the "real" Don Draper would be 43 in 1960. So it doesn't work out that Dick came home with a new age to match his new name. He's clearly not pretending to be older than he is. However, it's not stated how old Don is at this time.

- Jon Hamm plays Dick Whitman in a photograph from 1944, implying that, regardless of what his age is supposed to be, he definitely wasn't a child during WW2.

- The explosion that kills the real Don is actually started by Dick dropping his zippo into a puddle of gasoline, not an enemy attack.

- Don Draper gets kicked down to the reserves for his last 80 days. It's implied that Don's wounds are minor and that he'll be back on his feet in a week. So, no, his injuries wouldn't have gotten him out of serving out his original tour.

- He's told in practically the same sentence that he needs to bring "Dick"'s body back to his family. So in one fell swoop, Don knows the Army buys him as Don, knows he's getting out of his military service, and knows he's supposed to go and face his family as "Don Draper". It seemed to me that he definitely could have said, "NO WAIT IT WAS ALL A MISTAKE!" if this was really about never seeing his family again rather than it being about getting out of military service.

- For those playing along in the "Should Peggy Be Creative Director" game, Pete whines at having been at SC for two years without being head of accounts yet. So, maybe? That said, he's not given the head of accounts job, and in my opinion it's treated like a bit of a long shot that he would. Also Don implies that his entitlement to such a position is about Pete's status as a spoiled rich kid, and not out of any real qualification.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 PM on July 1, 2013

Are we super duper 100% sure that what we're seeing as "The Depression" isn't like 1938 or 1940?

The bottoming out of corn prices (which resulted in Dick's dad running for his horse and getting kicked in the head) would suggest the early to mid-thirties.

Sara C., there's a "citation needed" claim on Wikipedia that Dick never finished high school. You haven't seen anything in your rewatching about that, have you? I don't remember it. Not that it would really help solve anything.

I think usually the model here is for someone like Dick to start pimping women, himself.

EW, NO!! I guess you could make a case that self-disgust from this kind of history would have led Don to resist pimping Joan out. But I'd really prefer to think he never sank that low.
posted by torticat at 9:30 PM on July 1, 2013

Re high school, no. Though I haven't made a scientific study of the literature or anything.

Very little specific information about Don is mentioned in Nixon Vs. Kennedy. Surprisingly little. I realized that a lot of my ideas about Dick were created by my imagination -- for instance my assumption was that he must have been barely 18, when of course his age isn't mentioned.

The Don Draper wikipedia article is pretty useless for figuring out the Don Draper Timeline. Which makes sense, since the show has been fuzzy about it and it honestly doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

But I'd really prefer to think he never sank that low.

I would, too. But it begs the question. What was Dick Whitman running from so urgently as a 25 year old that made him enlist in the Army?
posted by Sara C. at 9:39 PM on July 1, 2013

where Dick is starting to look very much like a man, not a little boy

Dick starting to look like a man is problematic in itself, because he arrived at the brothel at that age, seemingly having aged five or six years during his step-mother's pregnancy with Adam.

Maybe he gained six years when he was ten, and God or Father Time or whoever realized the error and took the years back when he was in his late teens. It would solve both problems and Matt Weiner would be a storytelling genius.
posted by torticat at 9:41 PM on July 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re the high school thing, it did occur to me that Dick is spending his teen years living in a brothel. What's the likelihood that he's going to school on the regular?
posted by Sara C. at 9:44 PM on July 1, 2013

What was Dick Whitman running from so urgently as a 25 year old that made him enlist in the Army?

Well, exactly. That's what I was asking that started the whole timeline discussion... in terms of his life story, it would make far more sense for him to have escaped at 18. Which would have been during WW2. Which...yeah it doesn't make sense.
posted by torticat at 9:50 PM on July 1, 2013

Dick's timeline is uh, hazy at best. There's a good chunk of time unaccounted for. I'm kind on the team Ret-Con that Don/Dick is actually older then he says he is, older than the his Dick Whitman papers say and thus Older than his Don stats.

Like..enough time for Dick to have done even more awful shit that he wants to KILL AND BURY AND NEVER THINK ABOUT EVER AGAIN.
posted by The Whelk at 10:15 PM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Like..enough time for Dick to have done even more awful shit that he wants to KILL AND BURY AND NEVER THINK ABOUT EVER AGAIN.

Actually, that could be an amazing story engine for the final year - what drove Dick to run away to Korea, just as Don is choosing how to reinvent himself again (or deciding he doesn't need to reinvent, so much as open-up, free himself of his guilt). The whole series has traded on Don is really Dick tension and now that that has been opened up to pretty much everyone, if we were to revisit his pre-Korea years only to discover he had a bigger reason to leave the country and put his family behind him, could be a great revelation.
posted by crossoverman at 11:17 PM on July 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Yeah, Sara, good story insight on the possibility that there's some unpleasantness unrevealed between 1943 and 1950-53. Someone get Weiner over here stat.

You know, we can accept that Don's a great artist in his medium, right? Look at the numbers of great jazz artists raised in brothels.

Clearly, Dick spent his finishing-school years as the house advertising creative for a series of brothels. Probably one of these campaigns went awry and he joined the Army on the run from the mob. He's the Louis Armstrong of the ad world, but with a drinking problem and emotional repression issues.
posted by mwhybark at 12:34 AM on July 2, 2013

Sara C.: “- The explosion that kills the real Don is actually started by Dick dropping his zippo into a puddle of gasoline, not an enemy attack.

- He's told in practically the same sentence that he needs to bring "Dick"'s body back to his family. So in one fell swoop, Don knows the Army buys him as Don, knows he's getting out of his military service, and knows he's supposed to go and face his family as "Don Draper". It seemed to me that he definitely could have said, "NO WAIT IT WAS ALL A MISTAKE!" if this was really about never seeing his family again rather than it being about getting out of military service. ”

I had forgotten that part that the attack was over and Don is actually killed when Dick drops his lighter. Interesting how I for some reason remembered the "official story" instead of the real one. Definitely sheds new light on the lighter scene in Hawaii.

Also, I can't figure out which Adam episode it is—I want to say "Indian Summer"—but Dick accompanies Don's body back to Dick's family, but never gets off the train. Adam sees him through the window, and Dick ducks. One presumes they bury Don in a grave marked Dick Whitman and no one except Adam ever thinks anything else of it.

I might have to figure out which episode that scene is in, just to freshen my memory.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:03 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

- Don Draper gets kicked down to the reserves for his last 80 days. It's implied that Don's wounds are minor and that he'll be back on his feet in a week. So, no, his injuries wouldn't have gotten him out of serving out his original tour.

Thanks for re-watching the episode and clarifying (now I don't have to do it!)

- He's told in practically the same sentence that he needs to bring "Dick"'s body back to his family. So in one fell swoop, Don knows the Army buys him as Don, knows he's getting out of his military service, and knows he's supposed to go and face his family as "Don Draper". It seemed to me that he definitely could have said, "NO WAIT IT WAS ALL A MISTAKE!" if this was really about never seeing his family again rather than it being about getting out of military service.

I still think one reason for the switch is to be really, really gone to his family. No doubt he figured he would come up with something to avoid seeing the family when he dropped off the body. So thanks to your clarification we have three good reasons, probably in this order: get out of the service quickly and alive; financial motivation due to Don's higher rank/length of service and as a bonus his family doesn't come looking for him.

Here too I think those missing pre-Korea years (if they exist) are key. Maybe he tried to set out on his own somehow but his family/past pulled him back in. So he then decides to go to Korea and then takes the opportunity to permanently leave his past behind.

I can't believe anyone would forget Dick was responsible for the explosion that kills Don!
posted by mikepop at 5:23 AM on July 2, 2013

If Dick joined up in his mid-twenties, what did he do for the 5-7 years of his early adulthood?

Bulk up?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:34 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

I assumed that the working at a road house and relieving himself in the trunks of rich people's cars that he described to Connie Hilton took place pre-Army.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:35 AM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

I can't figure out which Adam episode it is—I want to say "Indian Summer"—but Dick accompanies Don's body back to Dick's family, but never gets off the train. Adam sees him through the window, and Dick ducks. One presumes they bury Don in a grave marked Dick Whitman and no one except Adam ever thinks anything else of it.

Yes, that's definitely the case. But IIRC it's presented as this big difficult conflict for the new Don Draper to face. How will he manage to pull off keeping his new identity without anyone from his family seeing him? He pulls it off by breaking down in the train and pretending that he just can't face seeing these people whose son was killed in action. But he very clearly doesn't know that's what he's going to do when he's given this task from a hospital bed, in the same breath as having the switch confirmed.

If the only reason to switch was to definitively never see his family again, I feel like he might have gone back on the whole thing right there. It's clearly bigger than that. He was willing to risk seeing his family one more time, if it meant he got to go home from the war and start over as someone else.
posted by Sara C. at 7:45 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

Re the roadhouse -- yeah, but I figured that had happened when he was like 14-15. You wouldn't have a 22 year old man parking cars at a roadhouse.

I'm starting to settle more and more on the idea that something really dark and fucked up happened well into Dick's adulthood that inspired the army thing.

Either he got caught doing something illegal and was given the choice of the army or jail, or he got into a tight spot and came up with the army as a way to get away from whatever it was and make a fresh start. My guess is that what he got in trouble for/what he was running from is something underworld-ish in nature, due to the focus on the brothel stuff this season.
posted by Sara C. at 7:48 AM on July 2, 2013

Lets think of all the awful things Dick could've done to justify BURN IT DOWN, SALT THE EARTH, NEVER SPEAK OF THIS AGAIN. It'll be fun!
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 AM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

Oh whoa. It looks like the timeline problems are worse in story canon than we've been accounting for. Apparently the first season does have Don joining up when he's 18-ish. See this Basket of Kisses post...

the most significant points being, Dick is ~10-11 years older than Adam. In "5G," Adam tells Don that he remembers seeing him on the train (back from Korea) when he (Adam) was eight. Also, Pete discovers in "Nixon v Kennedy" that the real Don Draper died in 1950. (Is that accurate, Sara C.?)

So the story doesn't actually have an unaccounted-for period in Dick's early adulthood. It just has major inconsistencies in the story as it lines up with history (and with itself). For Dick to be returning from Korea in 1950, he had to have been born in 1931 at the earliest. Which puts the supposedly Depression-era death of his father in 1941. And means in the "Dick and Adam 1944" pic, Dick is 13 and Adam is 3ish (they're not). And that in the zou bizou episode, Don isn't actually 40 but 35; and he was only 29-30 when season 1 began.

None of that works, so it looks like the story they wrote actually has a kid who was born in the mid-twenties but was only 19 in 1950. I have NO idea how they would have allowed such a huge flaw in the timeline.
posted by torticat at 7:53 AM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

Listen, Dick Whitman has become unstuck in time.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 AM on July 2, 2013 [6 favorites]

Also, Pete discovers in "Nixon v Kennedy" that the real Don Draper died in 1950. (Is that accurate, Sara C.?)

Yes. Though Korea was only from 1950-53, and in order for Don not to be way too old to be fighting in Korea, he'd have needed to get in and out early.

Don's age is not mentioned in Nixon vs. Kennedy, which is the main episode which shows the events of the identity switch. He comes off as young and stupid, but a specific age isn't mentioned.

Re the Basket Of Kisses post, I take issue with all that "but does X actor really look that young?" stuff. There's a reason none of their ages are stated in dialogue. I think we can all give them the benefit of the doubt on that. Especially for photos, which are always ridiculous in TV -- I used to be the person who prints out the weird old period photos, and let me tell you, they don't care much how old the actors look or whether it's period accurate or anything.

The main problem is the discrepancy between Dick and Adam's ages. Something the show seems pretty lax about, because it now seems like Dick is losing his virginity while Abigail is pregnant with Adam, which would make him ten years old. Which, if this was the biography of an old blues man or something, I might buy, but this is mainstream American television, so no.
posted by Sara C. at 8:16 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

The Whelk: "Listen, Dick Whitman has become unstuck in time."

The final season ends with Don dying in the firebombing of Dresden.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:24 AM on July 2, 2013 [5 favorites]

My theory is that, originally, this was all supposed to be things that happened in WW2, but at the last minute someone, somewhere, didn't like the idea of Don Draper deserting from The Good War. Which is the kind of thing that comes up with studios all the time -- even shows like Mad Men are very careful to make their characters seem like good people who are, at some level, moral and upright. And people know too much about WW2. It would look pretty bad to have Dick deserting a week before D-Day.

So they cast the episode and made the photo prop for 1944 before that decision was made, and they even conceivably shot all the war sequences without making a decision about which war it was. There's nothing about those scenes that makes it obviously Korea, aside from the fact that we're told that it went down in 1950. I think the only giveaways for Korea would be the black soldier dropping Dick off (Black men didn't serve alongside white men in the US military until 1948), and I guess probably the uniforms, but I don't know anything about military uniforms.

It's interesting that they stuck by that wonky as shit timeline, though. It would have been easy to just retcon everything else 5-6 years into the future, and not make an episode where Don turns 40 in 1966.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

I only meant, was it accurate that Pete said the real Don died in 1950 according to the papers in the box. Because if so, that locks Dick's birthdate around 1931 or 32, for him to be 18 and Adam 8 when he returned.

[His birthdate is clearly NOT '31, but in the mid-twenties; but the error is baked into the story.]

I'm starting to settle more and more on the idea that something really dark and fucked up happened well into Dick's adulthood that inspired the army thing.

The story has him returning from Korea at age 18 or 19, so I don't think the speculation about a dark secret from his early twenties is going to pan out.
posted by torticat at 8:31 AM on July 2, 2013

Which puts the supposedly Depression-era death of his father in 1941.

I could buy that the Depression lasted a few years longer for some people than it did for others.

I can't remember - in the birthday episode, were they celebrating Dick Whitman's actual birthday, or the birthday of the real, dead Don Draper?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:48 AM on July 2, 2013

this was all supposed to be things that happened in WW2, but at the last minute someone, somewhere, didn't like the idea of Don Draper deserting from The Good War.

I doubt it happened like that; I think it's important for the war to be Korea. The generations really matter on this show. Don is not part of the "Greatest" Generation; he's part of the Silent Generation. He embodies it; watch Roger and Don's early Season One conversations about Roger vs. Don vs. Pete. A WW2 vet wouldn't fit thematically.

Which puts the supposedly Depression-era death of his father in 1941.

The Depression was over in 1941 the way the Recession is over now.
posted by spaltavian at 9:06 AM on July 2, 2013 [3 favorites]

The story has him returning from Korea at age 18 or 19

No, the story doesn't say exactly what age Don was in Korea. That's the whole thing. My guess when I watched it the first time, ages ago, was that clearly Don must have been a fresh-faced 18 year old. But the math totally doesn't work out, and it's never said how old Don is there. Whereas it Don has a 40th birthday party in 1966.

The only implication about Don's age is that he's theoretically around ten years older than Adam (because the idea is that they have the same father, and Don's father died when he was 10), and I think at some point Adam that he saw Don in the train station when he was eight. Except that now the flashbacks for season 6 show Don as a teenager, not a ten year old, while Abigail is pregnant.

AH FUCKIT DONS A TIMELORD
posted by Sara C. at 9:37 AM on July 2, 2013 [3 favorites]

The Depression was over in 1941 the way the Recession is over now.

Also, it's not like the scenes from Don's childhood have everyone standing around saying, "Gee, this Great Depression we're having sure is crappy, isn't it?" It's mostly just the aesthetic.

All we have to tie Don's childhood to the 1930s is the appearance of a hobo in The Hobo Code and the idea that Dick's father's death had something to do with corn prices, which is a Depression-ish sounding thing. Though of course neither of those phenomena is limited to the prime Great Depression years.

We should definitely be somewhere in the 40's in the season 6 flashbacks. Which is totally fine and normal -- I doubt there would be any strong aesthetic differences between the mid 30's and early 40's in rural PA.

It cracks me up so hard how intimately aware of All Sixties Conventions the show tends to be, and how fuzzy it is on the details of the 30's and 40's and how old all the characters are.
posted by Sara C. at 9:45 AM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

The whole "generations" theme that runs through the show is total bullshit. Most of the characters aren't really that far apart in ages aside from Roger and Bert vs. most of the rest of the cast.

Pete is mentioned as being 26 or 27 in the first season. Don is in his mid 30's. Those are not separate generations. They're not even far apart enough in ages to represent the "Generation Gap", and within a few years all the characters introduced in the first season are firmly The Establishment.

Even if you want to talk about how Don "embodies the Silent Generation" or somehow especially represents the men who fought in Korea, my grandfather who fought in Korea is a lot closer to Pete's age than Don's age. In fact I think Pete is maybe a year too young to have served in Korea, himself. He's certainly nowhere near young enough to embody the Boomers, as we can see now.

It's pretty clear that nobody put much thought into any of this stuff, certainly not enough to come away with the idea that Mad Men is a story of people from different "generations" interacting with each other.

A show about "generations" would have the main male characters be Bert Cooper, Don Draper, and Bob Benson. You wouldn't have all this complex interlayering of characters who are roughly the same age and all represent the same establishment viewpoint, but in complex shadings of nuance.
posted by Sara C. at 10:02 AM on July 2, 2013

Bert Cooper, Don Draper, and Bob Benson.

They all live together in a house in Key West.
posted by The Whelk at 10:05 AM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

The Whelk: "Listen, Dick Whitman has become unstuck in time."

The final season ends with Don dying in the firebombing of Dresden.

The final season ends with young Dick Whitman in an airport watching Don Draper shot by airport security. The love of Don's life comforts him as he dies, then makes eye contact with young Dick, who is inexplicably moved. Dick spends the rest of his life looking for her.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:49 PM on July 2, 2013 [3 favorites]

TIMELORD

I knew it!
posted by mwhybark at 4:26 PM on July 2, 2013

Also, Old Fashioneds and little bamboo canapé plates of edamame all around. Great work, team.
posted by mwhybark at 4:30 PM on July 2, 2013

AH FUCKIT DONS A TIMELORD

Can Bob be his Companion?
posted by crossoverman at 5:26 PM on July 2, 2013 [1 favorite]

Pete is mentioned as being 26 or 27 in the first season. Don is in his mid 30's. Those are not separate generations. They're not even far apart enough in ages to represent the "Generation Gap", and within a few years all the characters introduced in the first season are firmly The Establishment.

I agree about generations but the "generations" thing is so exaggerated these days. Like apparently Lena Dunham is a different generation than I am and I'm way too young to have generated her since I was eight or something when she was born.
posted by sweetkid at 5:30 PM on July 2, 2013

The Whelk: “Listen, Dick Whitman has become unstuck in time.”

I need this on a t-shirt.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:06 PM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

For the record, I think Dick Whitman fits into Joshua Glenn's generational scheme as a Postmodernist (1924-1933).

Members of the generational cohort born from 1924-33 were in their teens and 20s during the Forties (1944-53, not to be confused with the the 1940s), and in their 20s and 30s during the Fifties (1954-63). Though this cohort is easily distinguished from their immediate juniors (born 1934-43), the influential generational periodizers William Strauss and Neil Howe have lumped the two distinct cohorts together and dismissively named their own awkward construct the “Silent Generation” (1925-42, a timespan that — despite its insane length — closely corresponds to my periodization scheme.) Why “silent”? Because after two noisily ideological, discourse-dominating, middlebrow-ized generations (the Partisans, the New Gods), the Postmodernists’ relative imperviousness to Middlebrow, their deep skepticism about its discourse, must have made Middlebrow very nervous.

posted by ob1quixote at 7:16 PM on July 2, 2013 [2 favorites]

"Megan Draper, in an episode fatefully titled 'Dark Shadows,' pokes fun at another actress who is auditioning for a role on a soap featuring vampire Barnabas Collins — the show I happened to be in from its first episode in June, 1966... I am admittedly prejudiced, and more than a little defensive, about the cult Gothic series that 'every kid ran home from school to watch' — but 47 years later, I am also still collecting residuals on the 1,225 episodes!"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:04 PM on July 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

Pete is mentioned as being 26 or 27 in the first season. Don is in his mid 30's. Those are not separate generations.

I don't know, I think events/culture can have an effect on people that creates something like an accelerated generation gap. You don't have to be old enough to be someone's mother (or young enough to be their child) to have a very very different outlook on the world. The internet has caused one of those changes (I'm in my 40s and used typewriters in high school; my cousins 10 years younger have had the internet their entire adult life). Whether or not you are old enough to remember a pre-9/11 world may be another such dividing line. Not for everyone, of course, but for many.

Fighting in a war is a huge defining experience. The difference between being, say, 24 and old enough to fight versus 14 and just starting to figure out what's going on in the world is at least as large a gap as that between parent and child. (And being 18 in that situation is enough to screw you up for life IMO but that's another thing.)

Changes came so fast in the 20th Century that the "generation gap" took on new meanings. I think that Mad Men explores that pretty well, e.g. the difference between Peggy and Joan. They are obviously not a generation apart, yet their outlooks are very different (see the fight outside the elevator a couple episodes back).

Anyway, except for the Baby Boomers (and other similar boomlets), generations don't happen in chronological waves. They are always overlapping, and they're shaped by external events more than by the literal 20-30 years that separates parents and children.
posted by torticat at 8:00 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]

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