I wear a kippeh because I am Jewish
June 10, 2013 7:36 AM Subscribe
Women are finally allowed to pray aloud at the Wall in Israel. Women of the Wall have been fighting to be allowed to pray and sing in their tallitot at the women's section of the Western Wall. The first day ended peacefully. They were not allowed to bring a Torah.
From the Guardian, quoting a female protestor:
posted by jb at 8:14 AM on June 10, 2013 [15 favorites]
"Women's singing is offensive here. Men who don't want to hear women singing can't close their ears. It's sexually provocative and violates local mores," she said. "This issue has been cast in terms of freedom. But it's not about the freedom of women to worship – this is violating the freedom of men not to hear women singing."You know, they can buy earplugs. My local pharmacy sells them pretty cheap. Maybe we can start a fund to supply conservative and orthodox men who have problems controlling themselves with some nice foam earplugs. Blind folds, too, if they want them.
posted by jb at 8:14 AM on June 10, 2013 [15 favorites]
My grandmother used to send money to Israel via the JUF, sponsor a tree planting for Tu B'shvat, and do many other things to support the fledgling country. Her husband -- my grandfather -- left Ireland in 1909 because Jews were persecuted in Ireland. He told stories of how he was spat on and how they had to put crosses on their windows to keep stone-throwers away.
I'm sure it would delight her to no end to see essentially the same persecution has arisen in what she loved to call her beloved "home away from home." I'm sure it would thrill her to no end to know the country has long condoned its own version of the Taliban.
It's disgusting and certainly not the Judaism I intend to pass on to my infant son. Oops. I guess saying that makes me a self-hating Jew.
To the Women of the Wall -- "yasher koach!"
posted by zooropa at 8:31 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm sure it would delight her to no end to see essentially the same persecution has arisen in what she loved to call her beloved "home away from home." I'm sure it would thrill her to no end to know the country has long condoned its own version of the Taliban.
It's disgusting and certainly not the Judaism I intend to pass on to my infant son. Oops. I guess saying that makes me a self-hating Jew.
To the Women of the Wall -- "yasher koach!"
posted by zooropa at 8:31 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Honestly, with all the problems in the world, the contented pettiness of one group to keep out others groups is painfully ridiculous. Separating women because they're vehicles of temptation or some such in astonishingly immature. Way to take responsibility for yourself.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:32 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:32 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
It's about damned time. A friend of mine was arrested at the Wall recently.
posted by zarq at 8:42 AM on June 10, 2013
posted by zarq at 8:42 AM on June 10, 2013
I was just discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago. He was surprised that I would want to visit the Wall considering how I would be treated there. I suppose this is a step in the right direction.
posted by blurker at 8:42 AM on June 10, 2013
posted by blurker at 8:42 AM on June 10, 2013
"...Jews were persecuted in Ireland. He told stories of how he was spat on..."
Never, been there, but I hear being spat upon by Jews in Israel is pretty common for Christians and even other Jews. What in the world.
posted by resurrexit at 8:55 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Never, been there, but I hear being spat upon by Jews in Israel is pretty common for Christians and even other Jews. What in the world.
posted by resurrexit at 8:55 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
zooropa: "the same persecution has arisen ... its own version of the Taliban."
Sure there's a lot to be said about the status of women in mainstream judaism. But let's not go down this path.
It is not the same persecution your zeyde faced in Europe.
The haredim are not the taliban.
posted by gertzedek at 9:03 AM on June 10, 2013
Sure there's a lot to be said about the status of women in mainstream judaism. But let's not go down this path.
It is not the same persecution your zeyde faced in Europe.
The haredim are not the taliban.
posted by gertzedek at 9:03 AM on June 10, 2013
The haredim are not the taliban.
I'll grant you that. But it does remain true that the Haredim are branching out and fashioning a separate Judaism that seems fanatical and extreme. I know they would be the first to dispute that, but this is just one manifestation.
I've had Orthodox friends over the years make the observation that the Haredim seem "barely recognizable as Jews." And these folks were hardcore baalei t'shuva and as frum as you could get. They were not Modern Orthodox, and I felt like they had the credibility to make such a statement.
Bottom line -- the Haredim are separating themselves into a Judaism that doesn't feel Jewish. In fact, this kind of inwardness is starting to feel like idolatry.
posted by zooropa at 9:10 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
I'll grant you that. But it does remain true that the Haredim are branching out and fashioning a separate Judaism that seems fanatical and extreme. I know they would be the first to dispute that, but this is just one manifestation.
I've had Orthodox friends over the years make the observation that the Haredim seem "barely recognizable as Jews." And these folks were hardcore baalei t'shuva and as frum as you could get. They were not Modern Orthodox, and I felt like they had the credibility to make such a statement.
Bottom line -- the Haredim are separating themselves into a Judaism that doesn't feel Jewish. In fact, this kind of inwardness is starting to feel like idolatry.
posted by zooropa at 9:10 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
Screw theocracies. Of any kind. There's no need to compare the sexist, racist, and religiously intolerant laws of the Taliban with the Israeli ones, nor the US ones (mostly local, and quickly overturned, but still abhorrent).
They're all evil. A human being shouldn't have to obey any other human being's viewpoint on Not-Making-Invisible-Sky-Father*-Mad. (*or Sky-Mother/Thing/etc)
posted by IAmBroom at 9:19 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
They're all evil. A human being shouldn't have to obey any other human being's viewpoint on Not-Making-Invisible-Sky-Father*-Mad. (*or Sky-Mother/Thing/etc)
posted by IAmBroom at 9:19 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
"Hey, look! We gave up one small part of our traditions of misogyny and discrimination! Aren't we progressive?"
Sorry; not impressed. Let women bring Torahs; let them pray alongside men; let men act like grown adults who can control themselves even as their minds are being maddened by the sights and sounds of (*gasp*) women—then we're getting somewhere.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:25 AM on June 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Sorry; not impressed. Let women bring Torahs; let them pray alongside men; let men act like grown adults who can control themselves even as their minds are being maddened by the sights and sounds of (*gasp*) women—then we're getting somewhere.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:25 AM on June 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
So, the violent men that were assaulting the women (throwing rocks? really?) were arrested, right?
Right?
posted by el io at 9:30 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
Right?
posted by el io at 9:30 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
I agree this is only a start (and probably one that was caused in part by the fear that diaspora Jews would stop giving Israel money), but you need to start somewhere. (Also, the Haredi gave nothing up, this is a government issue.)
posted by jeather at 9:42 AM on June 10, 2013
posted by jeather at 9:42 AM on June 10, 2013
After reading the article linked by resurrexit above, I am curious what the deal is with the spitting. Can anyone shed some light on this?
posted by misterpatrick at 9:51 AM on June 10, 2013
posted by misterpatrick at 9:51 AM on June 10, 2013
Brandon Blatcher: "Separating women because they're vehicles of temptation or some such in astonishingly immature. Way to take responsibility for yourself."
As I understand it, the onus here is not entirely on Orthodox men, but Orthodox women as well. In the sanctuaries of most Orthodox synagogues, men and women sit and pray separately -- separated by a barrier called a mehitzah. They do this for (at least) two reasons:
1) It allows both sexes to focus on prayer rather than gender.
2) To follow various rules about modesty, known as Tzniut.
Orthodox women generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily, for a variety of reasons. And while there's a case to be made that living in an environment that normalizes treating women as second class citizens removes a certain amount of their volition, there are quite a few Jewish women who willingly entered into ultra-Orthodox religious life as adults. They would probably argue against the idea that they're being oppressed by men, or raising their kids in an oppressive environment.
Here's the problem: the haredim are essentially treating the open air area at the Wall as their own personal synagogue, and demanding that everyone to conform to their standards. They are not praying in their own synagogue or in a private location. If they were doing that, many Jews would likely respect their wishes. Akin to being respectful when you are entering someone else's place of worship. What they do in their own synagogues is their own business.
But since they're praying in public, many of us who are not as observant feel very strongly they shouldn't be allowed to impose their level of observance on us, nor push the Israeli government and police to enforce it. That's ridiculous and offensive. But in my experience, Haredim (and many regular Modern Orthodox Jews) tend to think of themselves as protectors of "True" Judaism and Jewish observance, which they feel is being watered down by the practices of other, less observant Jews. By pushing everyone to pray their way, they're saying that they're the only ones doing it correctly.
posted by zarq at 9:53 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
As I understand it, the onus here is not entirely on Orthodox men, but Orthodox women as well. In the sanctuaries of most Orthodox synagogues, men and women sit and pray separately -- separated by a barrier called a mehitzah. They do this for (at least) two reasons:
1) It allows both sexes to focus on prayer rather than gender.
2) To follow various rules about modesty, known as Tzniut.
Orthodox women generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily, for a variety of reasons. And while there's a case to be made that living in an environment that normalizes treating women as second class citizens removes a certain amount of their volition, there are quite a few Jewish women who willingly entered into ultra-Orthodox religious life as adults. They would probably argue against the idea that they're being oppressed by men, or raising their kids in an oppressive environment.
Here's the problem: the haredim are essentially treating the open air area at the Wall as their own personal synagogue, and demanding that everyone to conform to their standards. They are not praying in their own synagogue or in a private location. If they were doing that, many Jews would likely respect their wishes. Akin to being respectful when you are entering someone else's place of worship. What they do in their own synagogues is their own business.
But since they're praying in public, many of us who are not as observant feel very strongly they shouldn't be allowed to impose their level of observance on us, nor push the Israeli government and police to enforce it. That's ridiculous and offensive. But in my experience, Haredim (and many regular Modern Orthodox Jews) tend to think of themselves as protectors of "True" Judaism and Jewish observance, which they feel is being watered down by the practices of other, less observant Jews. By pushing everyone to pray their way, they're saying that they're the only ones doing it correctly.
posted by zarq at 9:53 AM on June 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
I assume you mean "less observant" by the standards of the Hardeim themselves, zarq? I mean, I'm less observant by any standard, but a Reform rabbi is not less observant, even though the Haredim would say they are.
(I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before and more or less agreed.)
posted by jeather at 10:01 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
(I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before and more or less agreed.)
posted by jeather at 10:01 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oops. Yes, sorry. By their standards.
I use those terms quite a bit as shorthand to describe levels of observance by a given sect's standards. I should probably find a better way to describe it.
posted by zarq at 10:50 AM on June 10, 2013
I use those terms quite a bit as shorthand to describe levels of observance by a given sect's standards. I should probably find a better way to describe it.
posted by zarq at 10:50 AM on June 10, 2013
gertzedek: " It is not the same persecution your zeyde faced in Europe.
No, this one is perpetrated by Jews against Jews. It's different, but not so different that we accurately can't make some sort of comparison. Some Jews are being attacked and persecuted for praying, and the government is being pressured to prevent them from doing so.
The haredim are not the taliban."
I think once we've reached a point where Hareidi men are physically assaulting Jewish women for praying in public while wearing a tallis, we can be honest about the fact that the line separating the two groups has grown disturbingly thin.
posted by zarq at 11:02 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
No, this one is perpetrated by Jews against Jews. It's different, but not so different that we accurately can't make some sort of comparison. Some Jews are being attacked and persecuted for praying, and the government is being pressured to prevent them from doing so.
The haredim are not the taliban."
I think once we've reached a point where Hareidi men are physically assaulting Jewish women for praying in public while wearing a tallis, we can be honest about the fact that the line separating the two groups has grown disturbingly thin.
posted by zarq at 11:02 AM on June 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
The Wall is but a minor issue compared to the overall problem, which, I think, is that the ultra orthodox muliply far in excess of the rest of the population in Israel, and many or most do not work--they believe time should be spent studying the biblical texts (torah)...thus many children and without jobs puts huge burden on the state for social services, money that grows and grows as handouts and is needed elsewhere. The young ultras have schools that teach almost nothing but torah and so the young unfit for jobs...And in addition the teens do not (most of them)serve and the elders are trying to prevent toe govt from changing this.
How did this come about? So many of the ultra orthodox were killed by the Nazis that when Israel was founded, the state exempted them from service so they could multiply etc. Now they want to keep multiplying and do nothing else.
As for the Wall. All religions have notions that are not to be found in holy texts but get added on later--no women at male side of the wall; burkas for women ; women not serving as priests etc etc In so much of this it is directed by males to regulate women.
Notice, even in non orthodox settings, how, in our country, immigrants will often have the men dress in western style clothes while the women wear clothing from "theold country," ie, couples from India, from Arab nations, etc.
posted by Postroad at 11:07 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
How did this come about? So many of the ultra orthodox were killed by the Nazis that when Israel was founded, the state exempted them from service so they could multiply etc. Now they want to keep multiplying and do nothing else.
As for the Wall. All religions have notions that are not to be found in holy texts but get added on later--no women at male side of the wall; burkas for women ; women not serving as priests etc etc In so much of this it is directed by males to regulate women.
Notice, even in non orthodox settings, how, in our country, immigrants will often have the men dress in western style clothes while the women wear clothing from "theold country," ie, couples from India, from Arab nations, etc.
posted by Postroad at 11:07 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oops. Yes, sorry. By their standards.
I use those terms quite a bit as shorthand to describe levels of observance by a given sect's standards. I should probably find a better way to describe it.
posted by zarq at 10:50 AM on June 10 [+] [!]
Maybe say "have different ways of observing" or "different types of observance" instead of "less observance" and "levels of observance". Saying "levels" and "less/more" implies accepting the Haredi's idea that some people are higher up the hierarchy of true observance.
BTW, man, this thread is really surprising. I honestly didn't know that Israel had problems like this. Bizarre.
posted by Sleeper at 11:24 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I use those terms quite a bit as shorthand to describe levels of observance by a given sect's standards. I should probably find a better way to describe it.
posted by zarq at 10:50 AM on June 10 [+] [!]
Maybe say "have different ways of observing" or "different types of observance" instead of "less observance" and "levels of observance". Saying "levels" and "less/more" implies accepting the Haredi's idea that some people are higher up the hierarchy of true observance.
BTW, man, this thread is really surprising. I honestly didn't know that Israel had problems like this. Bizarre.
posted by Sleeper at 11:24 AM on June 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I use those terms quite a bit as shorthand to describe levels of observance by a given sect's standards. I should probably find a better way to describe it.
I know what you mean. I also have trouble wording it well, but I think it's really important to not word things to give the implication that there is one true standard (which is some flavour of Orthodox) and Conservative is a bit less observant, Reform even less, etc, because it continues to suggest -- incorrectly -- that the truest Jews are the ones who make the most rules/restrictions.
(Have you read the book Kosher Nation? I think you'd find it interesting.)
many or most do not work--they believe time should be spent studying the biblical texts
And you know, it used to be that most people worked, and only the very best and brightest (men) got to spend all their time studying. I'm not entirely sure where this turned into everyone should get to do that, and it should be subsidized by other people.
often have the men dress in western style clothes while the women wear clothing from "theold country,"
For all my complaints about Haredi, this is manifestly not true of them, where it is arguable that the women wear more modern (if very modest) clothing, and the men wear old style coats and funny hats.
posted by jeather at 11:28 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I know what you mean. I also have trouble wording it well, but I think it's really important to not word things to give the implication that there is one true standard (which is some flavour of Orthodox) and Conservative is a bit less observant, Reform even less, etc, because it continues to suggest -- incorrectly -- that the truest Jews are the ones who make the most rules/restrictions.
(Have you read the book Kosher Nation? I think you'd find it interesting.)
many or most do not work--they believe time should be spent studying the biblical texts
And you know, it used to be that most people worked, and only the very best and brightest (men) got to spend all their time studying. I'm not entirely sure where this turned into everyone should get to do that, and it should be subsidized by other people.
often have the men dress in western style clothes while the women wear clothing from "theold country,"
For all my complaints about Haredi, this is manifestly not true of them, where it is arguable that the women wear more modern (if very modest) clothing, and the men wear old style coats and funny hats.
posted by jeather at 11:28 AM on June 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
zarq: No, this one is perpetrated by Jews against Jews.
To me, that is what most sad about this. For centuries, our grandparents faced pogrom after pogrom in country after country. And now, we are at a time in history where we should be celebrating the full flower of our diversity.
Instead, we have one fanatical branch of the family dictating policy over the others and saying, "All others are false. We are true."
And don't get me started on Israel's (and Orthodox Judaism's) policies toward intermarried Jews. Those are even backward than official (and unofficial) policies toward women.
posted by zooropa at 11:33 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
To me, that is what most sad about this. For centuries, our grandparents faced pogrom after pogrom in country after country. And now, we are at a time in history where we should be celebrating the full flower of our diversity.
Instead, we have one fanatical branch of the family dictating policy over the others and saying, "All others are false. We are true."
And don't get me started on Israel's (and Orthodox Judaism's) policies toward intermarried Jews. Those are even backward than official (and unofficial) policies toward women.
posted by zooropa at 11:33 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
The Middle Eastern fear of women is ridiculous. Cover her hair because it might excite men? Cover her whole body because a non-relative male might see her? Do not allow girls an education - easy to guess why.
posted by Cranberry at 1:12 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Cranberry at 1:12 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sleeper: " Maybe say "have different ways of observing" or "different types of observance" instead of "less observance" and "levels of observance". Saying "levels" and "less/more" implies accepting the Haredi's idea that some people are higher up the hierarchy of true observance."
jeather: " I know what you mean. I also have trouble wording it well, but I think it's really important to not word things to give the implication that there is one true standard (which is some flavour of Orthodox) and Conservative is a bit less observant, Reform even less, etc, because it continues to suggest -- incorrectly -- that the truest Jews are the ones who make the most rules/restrictions. "
Completely agree with you both. Will have to figure out a better way to convey these ideas. I like Sleeper's descriptions, but they're not exactly what I'm trying to say.
(Have you read the book Kosher Nation? I think you'd find it interesting.)
I own it, but haven't read it yet. It looks fascinating. :)
posted by zarq at 1:13 PM on June 10, 2013
jeather: " I know what you mean. I also have trouble wording it well, but I think it's really important to not word things to give the implication that there is one true standard (which is some flavour of Orthodox) and Conservative is a bit less observant, Reform even less, etc, because it continues to suggest -- incorrectly -- that the truest Jews are the ones who make the most rules/restrictions. "
Completely agree with you both. Will have to figure out a better way to convey these ideas. I like Sleeper's descriptions, but they're not exactly what I'm trying to say.
(Have you read the book Kosher Nation? I think you'd find it interesting.)
I own it, but haven't read it yet. It looks fascinating. :)
posted by zarq at 1:13 PM on June 10, 2013
I think it's hilarious that it happened on this particular Hebrew date. How cool is that?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I thought the FPP was "I-wear-a-kitteh-because-I-am-Jewish", and immediately wished Jerusalem and the Western Wall had the cat density of Rome.
posted by Dreidl at 1:38 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Dreidl at 1:38 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I agree this is only a start (and probably one that was caused in part by the fear that diaspora Jews would stop giving Israel money), but you need to start somewhere.
If you're punching someone for no reason, and (shocker) they object, it's not sufficient to start punching them a little more lightly and less frequently, and then shrug your shoulders and say "what do you want me to do? it's not like I can stop punching them *entirely*, just like that! these things take time!"
No. You just stop punching the person, immediately, period. Or you're still an asshole.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:02 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you're punching someone for no reason, and (shocker) they object, it's not sufficient to start punching them a little more lightly and less frequently, and then shrug your shoulders and say "what do you want me to do? it's not like I can stop punching them *entirely*, just like that! these things take time!"
No. You just stop punching the person, immediately, period. Or you're still an asshole.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:02 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Middle Eastern fear of women is ridiculous. Cover her hair because it might excite men? Cover her whole body because a non-relative male might see her? Do not allow girls an education - easy to guess why.
Ugh, this is conflating about a million different issues, topics, ethnicities, and cultural and religious expressions under "Middle Eastern."
posted by sweetkid at 7:17 AM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
Ugh, this is conflating about a million different issues, topics, ethnicities, and cultural and religious expressions under "Middle Eastern."
posted by sweetkid at 7:17 AM on June 11, 2013 [5 favorites]
zarq: "I think once we've reached a point where Hareidi men are physically assaulting Jewish women for praying in public while wearing a tallis, we can be honest about the fact that the line separating the two groups has grown disturbingly thin."
What world do you live in where the distinction between being spat on and being beheaded is "disturbingly thin"?
We can agree that the haredim are not the good guys in this situation without resorting to hysteria. Please tone it down.
posted by gertzedek at 7:30 AM on June 11, 2013
What world do you live in where the distinction between being spat on and being beheaded is "disturbingly thin"?
We can agree that the haredim are not the good guys in this situation without resorting to hysteria. Please tone it down.
posted by gertzedek at 7:30 AM on June 11, 2013
gertzedek: " What world do you live in where the distinction between being spat on and being beheaded is "disturbingly thin"? "
Would that the only thing those women had to worry about was being spat upon.
"Thousands of ultra-Orthodox jeered, spit and threw rocks at the 400 'Women of the Wall' who prayed at the Western Wall today, according to the Jerusalem Post."
"A large group of haredi men also protested last month, some throwing coffee, water, rocks and a chair at the women."
Of course, this is nothing new for the Hareidi. Throwing rocks at women, soldiers, the police etc., seems to be a relatively frequent tactic for them.
This article includes a photo of them throwing rocks at police in Mea She'arim. More: "Dozens of haredim threw stones at two haredi IDF soldiers in Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox Mea She'arim neighborhood."
"Haredi men throw rocks at 'immodest' woman and her baby in Beit Shemesh. Two women, also ultra-Orthodox, help woman and her 7-month-old infant to safety in a nearby store." You read that accurately: they threw rocks at a woman and her baby.
"Haredim Throw Rocks, Eggs, at ‘Abomination Apartment.’ According to the website Hadrei Haredim, the woman in question is being accused of luring young Haredi women to her path."
gertzedek: "We can agree that the haredim are not the good guys in this situation without resorting to hysteria. Please tone it down."
Sorry, no. They're using violent tactics to threaten, coerce and intimidate people. They're no better than terrorists.
posted by zarq at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
Would that the only thing those women had to worry about was being spat upon.
"Thousands of ultra-Orthodox jeered, spit and threw rocks at the 400 'Women of the Wall' who prayed at the Western Wall today, according to the Jerusalem Post."
"A large group of haredi men also protested last month, some throwing coffee, water, rocks and a chair at the women."
Of course, this is nothing new for the Hareidi. Throwing rocks at women, soldiers, the police etc., seems to be a relatively frequent tactic for them.
This article includes a photo of them throwing rocks at police in Mea She'arim. More: "Dozens of haredim threw stones at two haredi IDF soldiers in Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox Mea She'arim neighborhood."
"Haredi men throw rocks at 'immodest' woman and her baby in Beit Shemesh. Two women, also ultra-Orthodox, help woman and her 7-month-old infant to safety in a nearby store." You read that accurately: they threw rocks at a woman and her baby.
"Haredim Throw Rocks, Eggs, at ‘Abomination Apartment.’ According to the website Hadrei Haredim, the woman in question is being accused of luring young Haredi women to her path."
gertzedek: "We can agree that the haredim are not the good guys in this situation without resorting to hysteria. Please tone it down."
Sorry, no. They're using violent tactics to threaten, coerce and intimidate people. They're no better than terrorists.
posted by zarq at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2013 [8 favorites]
zarq: "They're no better than terrorists."
We may debate whether or not it is appropriate to call the haredim "terrorists", I give you that.
But the comparison with the Taliban is hysterical and inappropriate.
Perhaps you should be reminded of Aisha, who had har nose and ears cut off by the Taliban and of the girls who had their face burned with acid. Not to mention Malala Yousafzai.
posted by gertzedek at 9:10 AM on June 11, 2013
We may debate whether or not it is appropriate to call the haredim "terrorists", I give you that.
But the comparison with the Taliban is hysterical and inappropriate.
Perhaps you should be reminded of Aisha, who had har nose and ears cut off by the Taliban and of the girls who had their face burned with acid. Not to mention Malala Yousafzai.
posted by gertzedek at 9:10 AM on June 11, 2013
Why do we need to play 'who is worse at violence towards women?'
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 AM on June 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 9:15 AM on June 11, 2013 [4 favorites]
gertzedek: " Perhaps you should be reminded of Aisha, who had har nose and ears cut off by the Taliban and of the girls who had their face burned with acid. Not to mention Malala Yousafzai."
One does not excuse the other. Nor does the existence of one make the other less of a problem. And yes, the Hareidi are still no better than terrorists. Terrorists do not need to kill people or maim them to fit the definition.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
One does not excuse the other. Nor does the existence of one make the other less of a problem. And yes, the Hareidi are still no better than terrorists. Terrorists do not need to kill people or maim them to fit the definition.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Hareidi in these situations are still acting no better than terrorists, I mean. I don't want to tar the entire sect for the actions of fanatics.
posted by zarq at 9:56 AM on June 11, 2013
posted by zarq at 9:56 AM on June 11, 2013
zarq: Orthodox women generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily, for a variety of reasons.Citation needed, since a large number of orthodox women live in situations where breaking sexual orthodoxy would bring a huge amount of trouble for them socially, within their families, and in Israel's case even legally (such as at the Wall).
posted by IAmBroom at 10:09 AM on June 11, 2013
IAmBroom: " Citation needed."
Are you trying to say that all Orthodox women are only Orthodox because they are coerced?
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on June 11, 2013
Are you trying to say that all Orthodox women are only Orthodox because they are coerced?
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on June 11, 2013
sweetkid: "Why do we need to play 'who is worse at violence towards women?'"
Because the Taliban is not even in the same league, they're playing a different sport entirely. And this kind of comparison diminishes the suffering of people who are victims of real violent religious extremism.
posted by gertzedek at 1:52 PM on June 11, 2013
Because the Taliban is not even in the same league, they're playing a different sport entirely. And this kind of comparison diminishes the suffering of people who are victims of real violent religious extremism.
posted by gertzedek at 1:52 PM on June 11, 2013
Personally I think it diminishes the suffering of all victims when you make "say that to Malala Yousafzai" type comparisons. She's not there to score you points.
posted by sweetkid at 1:56 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sweetkid at 1:56 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
zarq, it's hardly all, but definitely some are coerced or at least socially pressured. I say this as someone who knows and respects quite a few whole-heartedly Orthodox women. But I also know some frum women who've been pushed to change their lives in ways they're not thrilled with, by their communities, schools, parents or husbands.
Often it's in relatively small ways, and it's not like the non-Jewish world is some sort of paradise of women's choice and freedom from pressure. But frum women are particularly vulnerable. If everyone you've known since childhood is frum, it's hard to get up and leave. If you've spent your whole life being told you have a lesser ability and obligation to learn Torah, it's hard to feel entitled to follow your own interpretations.
The Haredi community puts a lot of effort into isolating themselves from society at large. I understand some of their reasons for doing so, but below a certain level of exposure to multiple options, it's not quite honest to say that young adults are choosing their own future. Hopefully some of the changes in Israel lately will help with this--the cross-denominational tents protest, more Haredim serving in Tzahal, and Haredi children seeing at the Kotel that yes, women can decide how to daven. For all I know, more contact with the outside world may enlarge the Haredi community: Maybe we'll see more baalei tshuva, or frum girls taking a "Haredi rumspringa" and then returning to their community. And that's fine! As long as they're choosing for themselves.
posted by vasi at 1:57 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Often it's in relatively small ways, and it's not like the non-Jewish world is some sort of paradise of women's choice and freedom from pressure. But frum women are particularly vulnerable. If everyone you've known since childhood is frum, it's hard to get up and leave. If you've spent your whole life being told you have a lesser ability and obligation to learn Torah, it's hard to feel entitled to follow your own interpretations.
The Haredi community puts a lot of effort into isolating themselves from society at large. I understand some of their reasons for doing so, but below a certain level of exposure to multiple options, it's not quite honest to say that young adults are choosing their own future. Hopefully some of the changes in Israel lately will help with this--the cross-denominational tents protest, more Haredim serving in Tzahal, and Haredi children seeing at the Kotel that yes, women can decide how to daven. For all I know, more contact with the outside world may enlarge the Haredi community: Maybe we'll see more baalei tshuva, or frum girls taking a "Haredi rumspringa" and then returning to their community. And that's fine! As long as they're choosing for themselves.
posted by vasi at 1:57 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
vasi: "zarq, it's hardly all, but definitely some are coerced or at least socially pressured. I say this as someone who knows and respects quite a few whole-heartedly Orthodox women. But I also know some frum women who've been pushed to change their lives in ways they're not thrilled with, by their communities, schools, parents or husbands."
Same. But the thing is, I already acknowledged this upthread, and in the comment iambroom was quoting, had specifically referred to adult women who voluntarily chose to become ultra-Orthodox, as opposed to those raised from childhood in those communities.
posted by zarq at 2:20 PM on June 11, 2013
Same. But the thing is, I already acknowledged this upthread, and in the comment iambroom was quoting, had specifically referred to adult women who voluntarily chose to become ultra-Orthodox, as opposed to those raised from childhood in those communities.
posted by zarq at 2:20 PM on June 11, 2013
zarq: IAmBroom: " Citation needed."No, but I'm saying it's possible that orthodox women don't generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily.
Are you trying to say that all Orthodox women are only Orthodox because they are coerced?
It's like saying that women in Mad Men-era business settings generally accepted the rampant sexual discrimination voluntarily: there was more than a tad bit of pressure on them to stay in line and not buck the system.
They generally have to accept them. Whether or not it's generally voluntary is fairly unknowable, frankly - unless the time comes when a majority speak up against it, or a truly, absolutely anonymous and trusted poll is taken.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:30 PM on June 11, 2013
IAmBroom, there are differing levels of observance in Orthodox Judaism, so conflating them all with generalizations is... problematic. The sects differ (at times widely) from each other in the way they interact with the outside world, the way they practice their religion and how girls and women are treated, institutionally.
What you are describing for the most part is not Modern Orthodox Judaism, which is (I believe) the most popular form of Orthodox Judaism, but rather Hereidi Judaism -- which rejects modern secular culture. Colloquially, the latter might be referred to as ultra-Orthodox Jews. Or "black hat" Jews.
In my experience, Modern Orthodox women are typically college educated and in turn devoted to educating their children -- boys and girls. Most (especially in the North Eastern US,) probably have jobs outside their homes. They surf the net, read books, tweet, use Facebook, go to movies, etc., etc. All while remaining religious traditionalists. Basically, you might not ever know that they're Orthodox Jews if you met them casually unless you knew what to look for. I suspect that if you spoke to them about why they're Orthodox, their answers might also surprise you.
Hasidic Judaism, Hareidi Judaism, such as the Satmar sect described in Deborah Feldman's Unorthodox are very different. And are far more likely to fit what you're describing. Women in their societies are generally subordinate to men, and yes, we agree that this is a serious problem.
posted by zarq at 3:39 PM on June 11, 2013
What you are describing for the most part is not Modern Orthodox Judaism, which is (I believe) the most popular form of Orthodox Judaism, but rather Hereidi Judaism -- which rejects modern secular culture. Colloquially, the latter might be referred to as ultra-Orthodox Jews. Or "black hat" Jews.
In my experience, Modern Orthodox women are typically college educated and in turn devoted to educating their children -- boys and girls. Most (especially in the North Eastern US,) probably have jobs outside their homes. They surf the net, read books, tweet, use Facebook, go to movies, etc., etc. All while remaining religious traditionalists. Basically, you might not ever know that they're Orthodox Jews if you met them casually unless you knew what to look for. I suspect that if you spoke to them about why they're Orthodox, their answers might also surprise you.
Hasidic Judaism, Hareidi Judaism, such as the Satmar sect described in Deborah Feldman's Unorthodox are very different. And are far more likely to fit what you're describing. Women in their societies are generally subordinate to men, and yes, we agree that this is a serious problem.
posted by zarq at 3:39 PM on June 11, 2013
It's more accurate to say that people in those cultures have a high level of expected subordination to the demands of their society. None of us live in a culture-free milieu and most of us have expectations imposed upon us by our culture: I think I'm right in saying that as parents we are both expected to put our children's interests ahead of ours under some circumstances (but not others); similarly, there may come a time when we depend on our children doing the same for us.
I've read a number of positive accounts from women who have joined Hasidic groups. These sometimes get dismissed because the authors are unrepresentative, but accounts from women who have left these groups are just as unrepresentative: you need both sorts to have any chance of getting an unbiased perspective. If you visit Boro Park you can see that women-run businesses are pretty common; a Google search turns up lots of communal organisations run by and for women. My reading of the situation is that Hasidic groups are practically two societies joined at the family level: one for men and one for women. The dynamics of this interaction are somewhat opaque to me but I don't see any indication that, e.g., women are expected to turn over their earnings to their husbands, or that boys' education and careers are given priority.
Regarding IAmBroom's point that "it's possible that orthodox women don't generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily", it's interesting that the opposition to the Women of the Wall's prayer service this time was primarily coming from women. Yes, you might say that they were brutalised into it or conforming to societal expectations, but that would be starting by denying their capacity as actors.
tl;dr: cultures are complex, I don't think anyone has come out of this particularly well except, perhaps, Natan Sharansky.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:19 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've read a number of positive accounts from women who have joined Hasidic groups. These sometimes get dismissed because the authors are unrepresentative, but accounts from women who have left these groups are just as unrepresentative: you need both sorts to have any chance of getting an unbiased perspective. If you visit Boro Park you can see that women-run businesses are pretty common; a Google search turns up lots of communal organisations run by and for women. My reading of the situation is that Hasidic groups are practically two societies joined at the family level: one for men and one for women. The dynamics of this interaction are somewhat opaque to me but I don't see any indication that, e.g., women are expected to turn over their earnings to their husbands, or that boys' education and careers are given priority.
Regarding IAmBroom's point that "it's possible that orthodox women don't generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily", it's interesting that the opposition to the Women of the Wall's prayer service this time was primarily coming from women. Yes, you might say that they were brutalised into it or conforming to societal expectations, but that would be starting by denying their capacity as actors.
tl;dr: cultures are complex, I don't think anyone has come out of this particularly well except, perhaps, Natan Sharansky.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:19 PM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
My reading of the situation is that Hasidic groups are practically two societies joined at the family level: one for men and one for women. The dynamics of this interaction are somewhat opaque to me but I don't see any indication that, e.g., women are expected to turn over their earnings to their husbands, or that boys' education and careers are given priority.
I'm not sure how you can miss it. In (very) general, the women work, and their money is used to live on. The men study and do not bring in money (some from teaching). Girls study just enough that they can work and don't get in trouble from the government, but not (as much of) the important (religious) stuff. Boys' education is given priority; careers are created to support the educations.
posted by jeather at 8:15 PM on June 11, 2013
I'm not sure how you can miss it. In (very) general, the women work, and their money is used to live on. The men study and do not bring in money (some from teaching). Girls study just enough that they can work and don't get in trouble from the government, but not (as much of) the important (religious) stuff. Boys' education is given priority; careers are created to support the educations.
posted by jeather at 8:15 PM on June 11, 2013
Jeather, I'd like to see some actual data on that; in the last thread discussing Hasidim there were a lot of similar statements that seemed to be frankly based on prejudice. A recent report on Jewish poverty in New York says that
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:05 AM on June 12, 2013
Hasidic households have the second-largest number of poor households and the third-highest incidence of poverty of any group.They also rank near the top in the number of near poor and the incidence of near poverty. Contrary to conventional wisdom, most poor Hasidic households do have at least one person working full-time.That report doesn't break things down by gender, but another report on a poverty amelioration program in New York says [PDF]
[my emphasis]
With the fourth child, the mother typically begins to stay home, and the father will then start to work. As one of the rabbis said, “You never end religious study. There is always more to study. But necessity requires the men to work.”So yes, it reports that there's a social imperative for male religious study, but the dynamics it describes aren't at all the way you describe them. My reading of this is that intensive religious study for most Hasidic men is expected to be a temporary thing and that it can't be a general driver of social status in later life. But I'd be very happy to reconsider my position after seeing a more general demographic survey.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:05 AM on June 12, 2013
Joe in Australia: "It's more accurate to say that people in those cultures have a high level of expected subordination to the demands of their society. None of us live in a culture-free milieu and most of us have expectations imposed upon us by our culture: I think I'm right in saying that as parents we are both expected to put our children's interests ahead of ours under some circumstances (but not others); similarly, there may come a time when we depend on our children doing the same for us.
Unfortunately, some of the expectations that are being imposed on Hasidic girls can also prevent them from either seeking a life outside the community or surviving on their own if they do. This is why organizations like Footsteps exist. People who attempt to leave insular, rejectionist societies (like the Amish, for example,) tend to have a great deal of difficulty acclimating to modern life, and in the case of the Hasidim, Footsteps works to help support them as they do so.
Do Hasidic women who grow up in restrictive environments have free will? Yes and no. It's definitely arguable. In the Satmar community (for example,) learning about the outside world is drastically restricted, and education for girls often ceases completely after 8th grade. The lack of education keeps young women tied to their community. And while that community does support them and their families, it can prevent them from leaving. However, not all Hasidic communities are as restrictive as the Satmars.
The differences between a young woman merely being expected to fulfill a particular role in a community and that community establishing and maintaining strictures to deliberately prevent her from seeking a life elsewhere if she wanted to, can be difficult to measure when we're discussing restrictive religious communities.
I've read a number of positive accounts from women who have joined Hasidic groups.
As have I. And positive and negative accounts from women who grew up in the sect, which are far more common. I don't think either side is exceptionally well-represented either. But there is definitely knowledge out there, and we have the benefit of being able to look at the situation abstractly based on the knowledge we've been given.
The Forward has published a number of essays by Hasidic men and women over the years about their lives, and also some from men and women who have left the sect. These articles tend to be printed in clusters, and center around a common theme. So, "Cracks in a Holy Vessel" gives rise to "A Mother is Who I Am" which provokes a response: "I'm a Mother, Not a Baby Machine" which in turn sparks, "Hasidic Women Feel Pressure for Children, But Fathers Fret About Providing" They can be poignant reads, and often quite educational. If you're interested in learning more about the lives Hasidim live, it's a good paper to follow. They at least attempt to give voice to both sides. Plus they report on things that are happening within various Hasidic communities, such as the Va’ad Hatznius Modesty Patrols. I believe the Jewish Women's Archive also has some essays worth reading on the topic.
If you visit Boro Park you can see that women-run businesses are pretty common;
Yes, of course. They are typically (especially when they are younger,) expected to bring in money to support their families so that their husbands can study. But not entirely. They are also expected to be mothers, and help repopulate the Jewish population in a post-Holocaust world. I live relatively nearby, and have actually spent a lot of time in and around Boro Park over the years. One of my parents worked there. I also grew up in Brooklyn quite close to the area. So from personal experience, I can say that it depends on the business. Single or recently married women frequently do work. But most often, they're working in a business they don't own. Which is fine, but worth noting.
Also, depending on the community, girls may be educated up until 8th grade, like the Satmars, or they may be given high school and/or vocational school training. Which helps determine whether how much and where they can work, as well as how much they can provide for their families.
My reading of the situation is that Hasidic groups are practically two societies joined at the family level: one for men and one for women. The dynamics of this interaction are somewhat opaque to me but I don't see any indication that, e.g., women are expected to turn over their earnings to their husbands, or that boys' education and careers are given priority.
In Hasidic communities, women and men are educated for different reasons. The emphasis for men is on religious study, which is expected to last their entire lifetimes. Women are educated as much as is necessary, but they are not expected to continue formal education beyond that. In some communities, they are actively discouraged from doing so either through cultural pressures or circumstance.
Regarding IAmBroom's point that "it's possible that orthodox women don't generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily", it's interesting that the opposition to the Women of the Wall's prayer service this time was primarily coming from women.
There are female Hareidi protestors, yes. I'm sure they feel quite strongly about their beliefs, too.
However, I haven't seen any indication that opposition has been primarily coming from women.
There was an interesting editorial I read a couple of days ago about a group of Hareidi women who protested the Women of the Wall this past weekend:
posted by zarq at 10:02 AM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, some of the expectations that are being imposed on Hasidic girls can also prevent them from either seeking a life outside the community or surviving on their own if they do. This is why organizations like Footsteps exist. People who attempt to leave insular, rejectionist societies (like the Amish, for example,) tend to have a great deal of difficulty acclimating to modern life, and in the case of the Hasidim, Footsteps works to help support them as they do so.
Do Hasidic women who grow up in restrictive environments have free will? Yes and no. It's definitely arguable. In the Satmar community (for example,) learning about the outside world is drastically restricted, and education for girls often ceases completely after 8th grade. The lack of education keeps young women tied to their community. And while that community does support them and their families, it can prevent them from leaving. However, not all Hasidic communities are as restrictive as the Satmars.
The differences between a young woman merely being expected to fulfill a particular role in a community and that community establishing and maintaining strictures to deliberately prevent her from seeking a life elsewhere if she wanted to, can be difficult to measure when we're discussing restrictive religious communities.
I've read a number of positive accounts from women who have joined Hasidic groups.
As have I. And positive and negative accounts from women who grew up in the sect, which are far more common. I don't think either side is exceptionally well-represented either. But there is definitely knowledge out there, and we have the benefit of being able to look at the situation abstractly based on the knowledge we've been given.
The Forward has published a number of essays by Hasidic men and women over the years about their lives, and also some from men and women who have left the sect. These articles tend to be printed in clusters, and center around a common theme. So, "Cracks in a Holy Vessel" gives rise to "A Mother is Who I Am" which provokes a response: "I'm a Mother, Not a Baby Machine" which in turn sparks, "Hasidic Women Feel Pressure for Children, But Fathers Fret About Providing" They can be poignant reads, and often quite educational. If you're interested in learning more about the lives Hasidim live, it's a good paper to follow. They at least attempt to give voice to both sides. Plus they report on things that are happening within various Hasidic communities, such as the Va’ad Hatznius Modesty Patrols. I believe the Jewish Women's Archive also has some essays worth reading on the topic.
If you visit Boro Park you can see that women-run businesses are pretty common;
Yes, of course. They are typically (especially when they are younger,) expected to bring in money to support their families so that their husbands can study. But not entirely. They are also expected to be mothers, and help repopulate the Jewish population in a post-Holocaust world. I live relatively nearby, and have actually spent a lot of time in and around Boro Park over the years. One of my parents worked there. I also grew up in Brooklyn quite close to the area. So from personal experience, I can say that it depends on the business. Single or recently married women frequently do work. But most often, they're working in a business they don't own. Which is fine, but worth noting.
Also, depending on the community, girls may be educated up until 8th grade, like the Satmars, or they may be given high school and/or vocational school training. Which helps determine whether how much and where they can work, as well as how much they can provide for their families.
My reading of the situation is that Hasidic groups are practically two societies joined at the family level: one for men and one for women. The dynamics of this interaction are somewhat opaque to me but I don't see any indication that, e.g., women are expected to turn over their earnings to their husbands, or that boys' education and careers are given priority.
In Hasidic communities, women and men are educated for different reasons. The emphasis for men is on religious study, which is expected to last their entire lifetimes. Women are educated as much as is necessary, but they are not expected to continue formal education beyond that. In some communities, they are actively discouraged from doing so either through cultural pressures or circumstance.
Regarding IAmBroom's point that "it's possible that orthodox women don't generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily", it's interesting that the opposition to the Women of the Wall's prayer service this time was primarily coming from women.
There are female Hareidi protestors, yes. I'm sure they feel quite strongly about their beliefs, too.
However, I haven't seen any indication that opposition has been primarily coming from women.
There was an interesting editorial I read a couple of days ago about a group of Hareidi women who protested the Women of the Wall this past weekend:
More than 300 women prayed with WOW, and the service included an emotional rendition of Hallel, the celebratory prayer said on the first day of every Hebrew month. During the prayers, one got to see the ultimate irony of the Western Wall conflict.
The female demonstrators who gathered to object to WOW — to say that their insistence on holding communal prayers at the Wall is inappropriate, and that it’s an infringement on the rights of Orthodox men who believe that hearing female voices in prayer is against Jewish law — tried to outshout WOW with their own recital of Psalms. So much for these women’s claim that they object to WOW because they don’t follow their own demure, modest standards at the Wall, and their supposed opposition to women’s voices being heard at the Wall.
But this is worse than ironic. In case it has escaped anybody’s attention, Hallel is simply a compilation of Psalms, and the Haredi women were, in their ostentatiously loud manner, reciting… Psalms. Two groups of Jewish women reciting Psalms, but needing hundreds of police to keep them apart. It’s enough to make King David, the psalmist, spin in his grave. What a tragedy.
posted by zarq at 10:02 AM on June 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
zarq: IAmBroom, there are differing levels of observance in Orthodox Judaism, so conflating them all with generalizations is... problematic.So, we finally agree that this statement you made is... problematic.
zarq: Orthodox women generally impose these constrictions on themselves voluntarily, for a variety of reasons.Right?
posted by IAmBroom at 11:23 AM on June 12, 2013
iambroom, my comment was accurate. The entire thing in context, not just the single sentence you keep quoting.
I took something that applies to nearly all Orthodox Jews and spoke about how it specifically relates to the Haredim.
Yours was not accurate, because you took something that is very specific to some sects of fundamentalist Orthodox Jews and tried to apply it to all Orthodox Jews, including the non-fundamentalists.
If you're really having that much trouble parsing my entire comment, then I'll break it down for you. But frankly, you seem fixated on taking a single sentence out of context and playing a gotcha game, rather than reading everything I said.
posted by zarq at 11:35 AM on June 12, 2013
I took something that applies to nearly all Orthodox Jews and spoke about how it specifically relates to the Haredim.
Yours was not accurate, because you took something that is very specific to some sects of fundamentalist Orthodox Jews and tried to apply it to all Orthodox Jews, including the non-fundamentalists.
If you're really having that much trouble parsing my entire comment, then I'll break it down for you. But frankly, you seem fixated on taking a single sentence out of context and playing a gotcha game, rather than reading everything I said.
posted by zarq at 11:35 AM on June 12, 2013
Zarq, I think we're in broad agreement, but I would like to stress that self-perpetuating enclaves aren't uniquely Hasidic (although I'm sure Hasidim have their own particular differences): there are non-Jewish groups with the same issues, and the question of how much state interference is warranted is a difficult one.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on June 12, 2013
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on June 12, 2013
There weren't enough complications already: PA objects to Israel's Western Wall plans
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:12 PM on June 13, 2013
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:12 PM on June 13, 2013
Anti-Orthodox Profiling Let Women Pray at Kotel
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:15 AM on June 16, 2013
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:15 AM on June 16, 2013
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I actually bumped heads a lot with the organizers on my birthright trip because I was fairly (vocally) appalled by the tiny scrap of crowded wall that is the women's side compared to the men's. It drove me to do quite a bit of research on the status of women in Israeli Judaism, and I'm glad to hear there has been some progress. Hope it sticks.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:51 AM on June 10, 2013 [4 favorites]