Racism, Sexism, and Hannibal: Eat the Rude
March 25, 2014 2:09 PM Subscribe
Hettienne Park writes a thoughtful response to recent events in Brian Fuller's Hannibal (link to Nerdist Writer's Panel podcast), specifically the most recent episode, Takiawase (link to AV Club Review). Spoilers ahoy in all links.
With Hannibal, it's a battle of ego, always. He will give people just enough metaphorical rope, to see if they hang themselves. If they do -- if they're not smart enough to see that he's manipulating them -- then he kills them. They are not worthy of his continued interest.
Where Will diverges from this is that Hannibal identifies with him on a deeply personal level -- Will is who Hannibal might have been, had not he turned into a murderous cannibal. Hannibal is still human enough to long for the normalcy that Will Graham represents.
Beverly Katz simply didn't pay attention. Which, in Hannibal's eyes, is incredibly rude.
posted by gsh at 2:25 PM on March 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Where Will diverges from this is that Hannibal identifies with him on a deeply personal level -- Will is who Hannibal might have been, had not he turned into a murderous cannibal. Hannibal is still human enough to long for the normalcy that Will Graham represents.
Beverly Katz simply didn't pay attention. Which, in Hannibal's eyes, is incredibly rude.
posted by gsh at 2:25 PM on March 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Plenty of "ARE YOU A FUCKING IDIOT??" (did you leave A NOTE somewhere before you went there?), but that's normal for a show where the characters don't seem to realize they're operating in the horror genre.
To be fair, given the surrounding events, if someone had found out that she was breaking into Dr. Lecter's house to search for secret evidence that he's killing and eating people, it would have been her ass career-wise at the very least unless she actually found something. I think it's at least reasonable from her perspective to decide not to tell anybody (although I agree with you that she probably should have been considering the possible danger to her life over the possible danger to her job).
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:38 PM on March 25, 2014
To be fair, given the surrounding events, if someone had found out that she was breaking into Dr. Lecter's house to search for secret evidence that he's killing and eating people, it would have been her ass career-wise at the very least unless she actually found something. I think it's at least reasonable from her perspective to decide not to tell anybody (although I agree with you that she probably should have been considering the possible danger to her life over the possible danger to her job).
posted by IAmUnaware at 2:38 PM on March 25, 2014
Yeah, I understand all the objections because Beverly is not for eating, and she's one of two non-white female cast members (and Bella is dying) -- and honestly, I don't think that her heading off into Hannibal's murder basement alone was in character (his house, yes, but once she found all the meat why is she heading into the murder basement?) -- but in the end, I understood this particular plot and thought it was an earned fridging as opposed to a crappy cliche.
I'm really curious about whether or not he's going to eat her.
And also what he tells people when they ask him who his butcher is for all these weird organ meats.
posted by jeather at 2:40 PM on March 25, 2014
I'm really curious about whether or not he's going to eat her.
And also what he tells people when they ask him who his butcher is for all these weird organ meats.
posted by jeather at 2:40 PM on March 25, 2014
And when I saw all the Bryan Fuller you promised you wouldn't do this commentary all over the internet, for a while I thought that he killed a dog.
posted by jeather at 2:42 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by jeather at 2:42 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
She did talk to somebody about where she was going in an indirect way. Price or Zeller (I don't know which is which) told her that Hannibal was at the hospital with Crawford. That seems like the sort of detail that might stick in someone's mind when they discover her meticulously mutilated remains next week.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:43 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 2:43 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I mentioned this before, but bev's death hit me in a way that somebody like Zeller wouldn't cause we spent so much time with her. I think the demand that she have a mirror of the Staring Goes Into The Basement scene from SoTL created a weak plot point ( leave a note!) but this show has exceeded my expectations in every single way so I can give all the benefits of the doubt.
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
( and that bullet hole had better come back in somehow.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
Presumably, in addition to all the other super-human talents Hannibal possesses, he is also a skilled carpenter who can replace the floorboards seamlessly.
Or I suppose he could buy a nice big area rug for the dining room.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2014
Or I suppose he could buy a nice big area rug for the dining room.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2014
The Whelk> ( and that bullet hole had better come back in somehow.)
I thought the point of the bullet hole was to make it clear to the viewer that Beverly Katz had been knocked back (and therefore is going to be killed by Lecter very shortly), and therefore her shot was angled up.
My guess is that Lecter notices the bullet hole and patches it up somehow. I'd bet money that no one else sees it and uses it to put two and two together.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:53 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I thought the point of the bullet hole was to make it clear to the viewer that Beverly Katz had been knocked back (and therefore is going to be killed by Lecter very shortly), and therefore her shot was angled up.
My guess is that Lecter notices the bullet hole and patches it up somehow. I'd bet money that no one else sees it and uses it to put two and two together.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:53 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
There was quite the chorus of "NOOOOOES WHY DIDN'T YOU LEAVE A VOICEMAIL WITH SOMEONE BEVERLY" in our house after we viewed that episode.
I am sorry to see Hettienne Park go but man, I gotta admit, that was a hell of an ending to the episode.
posted by Kitteh at 2:54 PM on March 25, 2014
I am sorry to see Hettienne Park go but man, I gotta admit, that was a hell of an ending to the episode.
posted by Kitteh at 2:54 PM on March 25, 2014
I had to watch it twice cause the first time I was just going WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON OH NOOOO too much.
I mean, we where promised a bloodbath starting in episode four.
posted by The Whelk at 2:56 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mean, we where promised a bloodbath starting in episode four.
posted by The Whelk at 2:56 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Whelk> but this show has exceeded my expectations in every single way so I can give all the benefits of the doubt.
I love Hannibal, and the visuals in particular. And one of the ways that the show has exceeded my expectations is that it is the single most visually graphic show I've seen on television, cable or network. The pilot has Lecter slicing through human lungs and the second episode has a decayed human body with half its face gone and mushrooms growing on it that isn't dead yet. Dexter was a children's show by comparison.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:59 PM on March 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
I love Hannibal, and the visuals in particular. And one of the ways that the show has exceeded my expectations is that it is the single most visually graphic show I've seen on television, cable or network. The pilot has Lecter slicing through human lungs and the second episode has a decayed human body with half its face gone and mushrooms growing on it that isn't dead yet. Dexter was a children's show by comparison.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 2:59 PM on March 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
I thought the point of the bullet hole was to make it clear to the viewer that Beverly Katz had been knocked back (and therefore is going to be killed by Lecter very shortly), and therefore her shot was angled up.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this was the point. That said, the show is pretty detail oriented, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lecter misses this bullethole somehow and it ends up being the thing that starts Jack Crawford on his path to discovering things Lecter does not want him to know.
posted by IAmUnaware at 3:02 PM on March 25, 2014
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this was the point. That said, the show is pretty detail oriented, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lecter misses this bullethole somehow and it ends up being the thing that starts Jack Crawford on his path to discovering things Lecter does not want him to know.
posted by IAmUnaware at 3:02 PM on March 25, 2014
I hate horror. I don't watch it. And yet, I'm a Hannibal addict. I can't explain it, and I'm a little concerned about what it may be doing to my psyche, but here we are.
posted by PussKillian at 3:02 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 3:02 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
And because we all roughly know what's going to happen, the entire show is just soaked in dramatic irony. We don't have to worry that he'll never get caught, so all the usual tension tropes of this genre don't work and they have to use new ones, ts making it the rare kind of How/whydonit story.
posted by The Whelk at 3:04 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:04 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
I don't do horror, but I'm a sucker for thrillers.
posted by Strass at 3:09 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Strass at 3:09 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I was more annoyed by Beverly all of a sudden holding the Idiot Ball than anything else.
posted by dogheart at 3:15 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by dogheart at 3:15 PM on March 25, 2014
I think Hettienne made a good point that an important part of the show is "its homage to the horror genre" where many, many characters charge off into ridiculous places (and get killed for it) and we (or rather y'all that like/watch horror movies) yell at the screen about how bad of an idea that is.
Beverly was feeling confident and is an investigator; it makes sense that she would want to explore further.
Am I correct in thinking that she is the first character explicitly from the Harris books to die?
And yeah, I want that bullet hole, the next one or the bullet itself to come back to bite Hannibal.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:45 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Beverly was feeling confident and is an investigator; it makes sense that she would want to explore further.
Am I correct in thinking that she is the first character explicitly from the Harris books to die?
And yeah, I want that bullet hole, the next one or the bullet itself to come back to bite Hannibal.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:45 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Apart from the passing mention of Garret Jacob Hobbs and his unnamed daughter in Red Dragon, that's probably right.
posted by figurant at 3:50 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by figurant at 3:50 PM on March 25, 2014
Honestly, if she's off the show then she won't be making hilarious jokes on Twitter as the new episode airs and that's very upsetting cause she is freaking hilarious.
"I know Will's cage is sad and all but I keep picturing him dancing and Hannibal throwing twenties at him."
Tee hee.
posted by The Whelk at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
"I know Will's cage is sad and all but I keep picturing him dancing and Hannibal throwing twenties at him."
Tee hee.
posted by The Whelk at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
Fuller didn’t have to have any women on the show.
I do like how Fuller seemed to decide that Harris' world was way too white male and changed Alan Bloom to Alana Bloom and Freddie Lounds to Freddie Lounds (female version) and Jack Crawford to Jack Crawford (Morpheus version).
The thought that Katz' death was a fridge-ing didn't even occur to me and I didn't know other people were up-in-arms about it. It's possible that I like Hannibal too much to seek out the flaws though (because I do like the show a lot).
posted by john-a-dreams at 4:26 PM on March 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
I do like how Fuller seemed to decide that Harris' world was way too white male and changed Alan Bloom to Alana Bloom and Freddie Lounds to Freddie Lounds (female version) and Jack Crawford to Jack Crawford (Morpheus version).
The thought that Katz' death was a fridge-ing didn't even occur to me and I didn't know other people were up-in-arms about it. It's possible that I like Hannibal too much to seek out the flaws though (because I do like the show a lot).
posted by john-a-dreams at 4:26 PM on March 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
I hope Fuller keeps up his habit of casting skilled broadway people in his murderous horror show cause they need the work. ( Ellen Greene is in an episode! Have you ever heard Chilton sing? He's amazing! )
posted by The Whelk at 4:28 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 4:28 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
The Whelk: "I hope Fuller keeps up his habit of casting skilled broadway people in his murderous horror show cause they need the work. ( Ellen Greene is in an episode! Have you ever heard Chilton sing? He's amazing! )"
I favorited this way before I realized that The Whelk is a fullblooded "Hannibal Serial Killer" name. Maybe The North Jersey Whelk? The Weehauken Whelk?
posted by Sphinx at 6:20 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I favorited this way before I realized that The Whelk is a fullblooded "Hannibal Serial Killer" name. Maybe The North Jersey Whelk? The Weehauken Whelk?
posted by Sphinx at 6:20 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
What would the Weehauken Whelk's signature be? Leaving a trail of slime on his victims?
posted by Pizzarina Sbarro at 6:47 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by Pizzarina Sbarro at 6:47 PM on March 25, 2014
I'm deeply concerned re: The ability of Team Sassy Science to absorb a 1/3 reduction in force. If he replaces Bev with someone from musical theatre, we could have a musical episode done up as a Hannibal/Sweeney Todd Mashup. Perhaps Adele Dazeem is available.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:52 PM on March 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:52 PM on March 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Pizzarina Sbarro: "What would the Weehauken Whelk's signature be? Leaving a trail of slime on his victims?"
The Weehauken Whelk leaves a trail of style.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:53 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Weehauken Whelk leaves a trail of style.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:53 PM on March 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
I guess I'm really dense. I watched the episode a few days ago. Then I saw this post and said "Huh, I sure don't remember her dying. Was it late when I watched episode 4? Maybe I didn't watch it and thought I had?" So I just went back an re-watched it, and it wasn't at all clear to me that she died. I just assumed cliffhanger. So I guess I'm dense.
I'm enjoying the show (and only started watching it after seeing so many people rave about it here), but one thing that really annoys me is how pretty much everyone is referred to in speech, always, as "first name + last name." That is an oddity that does not commonly occur in my world, and it jolts me out of the show's fiction every time it happens.
Will Graham. Hannibal Lecter. Alona Bloom. Jack Crawford. Garrett Jacob Hobbs. Abigail Hobbs. Very rarely in the show do you ever hear any of those people spoken of, in the third person, by their first names. It's just weird.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:55 PM on March 25, 2014
I'm enjoying the show (and only started watching it after seeing so many people rave about it here), but one thing that really annoys me is how pretty much everyone is referred to in speech, always, as "first name + last name." That is an oddity that does not commonly occur in my world, and it jolts me out of the show's fiction every time it happens.
Will Graham. Hannibal Lecter. Alona Bloom. Jack Crawford. Garrett Jacob Hobbs. Abigail Hobbs. Very rarely in the show do you ever hear any of those people spoken of, in the third person, by their first names. It's just weird.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:55 PM on March 25, 2014
You are not dense. We know what happened because Fuller came out and said it on the AV Club walkthrough.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:57 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:57 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh! I feel much better now. I had avoided the AV club link because I use the AV Club as a source of recaps, and I wasn't ready to have this one recapped yet.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:02 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by mudpuppie at 7:02 PM on March 25, 2014
Well, I didn't think she'd get away - Hannibal can't get caught this early in the season, and I don't think he's prone to keeping prisoners in that basement, so, well, I wish Bev was NOT FOR EATING, but I think maybe she is gonna be for eating.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:06 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by rmd1023 at 7:06 PM on March 25, 2014
I am grateful for the fresh thread for a few more weeks of screaming and flailing about the show, but sad that this was the event that generated it.
posted by sparkletone at 7:16 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 7:16 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Very rarely in the show do you ever hear any of those people spoken of, in the third person, by their first names. It's just weird.
Most of the people I see talking about Hannibal refer to him as "Hanni." But then those people are pretty much all from tumblr and spend their time making things like this.
posted by sparkletone at 7:25 PM on March 25, 2014
Most of the people I see talking about Hannibal refer to him as "Hanni." But then those people are pretty much all from tumblr and spend their time making things like this.
posted by sparkletone at 7:25 PM on March 25, 2014
Well, I didn't think she'd get away - Hannibal can't get caught this early in the season, and I don't think he's prone to keeping prisoners in that basement...
But what did Bev see in the basement that was so jaw-droppingly horrifying/amaze-balls that she didn't notice Hannibal creeping up on her? Remember Bev is no princess in peril, she looks at the horrible things humans do to one another for a living. I'm thinking maybe... perhaps - dungeon.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:25 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
bev's death hit me in a way that somebody like Zeller wouldn't cause we spent so much time with her.
A big part of the sting for me was that she was pretty much the only person who liked Will (Price and Zeller are clearly pretty iffy on him) in addition to not being actively trying to use (Jack), rescue (Alana) or psychologically torture (duh) him.
When they started building up Beverly a bit more, it felt the most natural of all of them because given their existing relationships as we know them, Price or Zeller would be a much harder sell for Will.
Sucks when Hannibal wants to make sure he's your only true friend and finds the best candidate for that in his murder basement. :(
posted by sparkletone at 7:31 PM on March 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
A big part of the sting for me was that she was pretty much the only person who liked Will (Price and Zeller are clearly pretty iffy on him) in addition to not being actively trying to use (Jack), rescue (Alana) or psychologically torture (duh) him.
When they started building up Beverly a bit more, it felt the most natural of all of them because given their existing relationships as we know them, Price or Zeller would be a much harder sell for Will.
Sucks when Hannibal wants to make sure he's your only true friend and finds the best candidate for that in his murder basement. :(
posted by sparkletone at 7:31 PM on March 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
But what did Bev see in the basement that was so jaw-droppingly horrifying/amaze-balls that she didn't notice Hannibal creeping up on her?
The most likely answer to this constitutes a major spoiler even by the standards of this thread. We... tried not to talk about it in the previous one and collectively decided against rot13 in the thread. You can google or I can memail you if you're dying to know.
It's maybe better to wait and watch though.
posted by sparkletone at 7:34 PM on March 25, 2014
The most likely answer to this constitutes a major spoiler even by the standards of this thread. We... tried not to talk about it in the previous one and collectively decided against rot13 in the thread. You can google or I can memail you if you're dying to know.
It's maybe better to wait and watch though.
posted by sparkletone at 7:34 PM on March 25, 2014
I favorited this way before I realized that The Whelk is a fullblooded "Hannibal Serial Killer" name. Maybe The North Jersey Whelk? The Weehauken Whelk?
I've already got the style I just need the reputation
Don't attack the shell.
Gruuu.
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on March 25, 2014
As the total asshole that dropped the spoiler-link-turd in last thread's punch bowl, I would also suggest waiting and watching.
posted by dogheart at 7:37 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by dogheart at 7:37 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
A big part of the sting for me was that she was pretty much the only person who liked Will (Price and Zeller are clearly pretty iffy on him) in addition to not being actively trying to use (Jack), rescue (Alana) or psychologically torture (duh) him.
Beverley was Wil's ONLY FRIEND. She was totally acting like his big sister, related to the conversation about siblings in Ouef (What is Price's Twin doing, like the polar opposite?) Bev getting killed is enough to make Will grow horns apparently.
Cause if Hannibal is going to steal all of Will's things, his job, his romantic interests, and his SHIRTS, than Will is gonna get some of Hannibal's murderous intent.
You want Will Graham's life so much Hanni? How about the prison jumper and being a dick for like, forever?
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm enjoying not knowing what's going to happen next; normally I'm all about reading every spoiler I can get my hands on, not this show, though. I have some guesses, a luxurious tastefully decorated dungeon being but one of them.
There's the old "serial killer with a staggeringly large collection of murder trophies displayed on a wall" trope, a surgical theater with gleaming surgical instruments prominently displayed , fully equipped abattoir ... the possibilities are endless. I like the dungeon/well-appointed love nest possibility the best though, 'cause Hannigram.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:46 PM on March 25, 2014
There's the old "serial killer with a staggeringly large collection of murder trophies displayed on a wall" trope, a surgical theater with gleaming surgical instruments prominently displayed , fully equipped abattoir ... the possibilities are endless. I like the dungeon/well-appointed love nest possibility the best though, 'cause Hannigram.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:46 PM on March 25, 2014
we, as a household, talked about how Lecter's basement wouldn't be the dirt pit James Gumb has in SotL. It would be so well-furnished and well-thought out, capable of dealing with whatever problem he has.
It's the Evil Bat Cave, so of course anyone who goes down there does mad or dies.
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's the Evil Bat Cave, so of course anyone who goes down there does mad or dies.
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
also, in-show, Tobais' basement. Which even has a head-in-jar SotL reference.
NEVER GO IN BASEMENTS.
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
NEVER GO IN BASEMENTS.
posted by The Whelk at 7:56 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
It would be so well-furnished and well-thought out, capable of dealing with whatever problem he has.
Furnished with what? He can't go too nice, what about stains? I feel like those plastic sofa covers or even Scotchgard would ruin the look of nearly anything, but what's the alternative -- stainless steel and a hose, like in a vet's office?
posted by rue72 at 7:58 PM on March 25, 2014
Furnished with what? He can't go too nice, what about stains? I feel like those plastic sofa covers or even Scotchgard would ruin the look of nearly anything, but what's the alternative -- stainless steel and a hose, like in a vet's office?
posted by rue72 at 7:58 PM on March 25, 2014
pretty much that is what we thought, basically the world's best/worst operating theater.
posted by The Whelk at 7:59 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:59 PM on March 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
basically the world's best/worst operating theater
That's how I've been imagining it as well since the first time we saw him climbing up out of the thing. It's also kinda the vibe I got from what little we have seen...
But then this guy owns full length plastic blood spatter protectors so his murder suits don't get any actual murder all over them, so who knows if it's all like that.
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's how I've been imagining it as well since the first time we saw him climbing up out of the thing. It's also kinda the vibe I got from what little we have seen...
But then this guy owns full length plastic blood spatter protectors so his murder suits don't get any actual murder all over them, so who knows if it's all like that.
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on March 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I am going to need to follow this thread in lieu of the episode because my Trypophobia won't let me handle anything beehive-related. Slice all the internal organs you want, make wings from skin-flaps, peel someone's arm skin off, turn a throat into a cello-neck, grow mushrooms on their still-living bodies, but please don't show me a bunch of small holes.
ugh
posted by bibliowench at 8:10 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
ugh
posted by bibliowench at 8:10 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I like to imagine the Hannigram shrine as well, but, like-- what were those giant stainless steel vat things for? Surely he didn't make that much people beer.
posted by dogheart at 8:11 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by dogheart at 8:11 PM on March 25, 2014
but please don't show me a bunch of small holes
Yeah... If that's a thing for you, skip this one. Most of it's not too bad, I don't think for people such as yourself? But then there's a couple gratuitous (beautiful if you're inclined to think so) close ups of hives at certain points. Not at all okay.
The only part I'd watch is the very end after the beekeeper/actupuncturist lady's been caught where Beverly goes to Hannibal's house? But GIFs on tumblr are floating around that show enough to get a sense of how that went down with the whole Slenderman reveal and stuff.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on March 25, 2014
Yeah... If that's a thing for you, skip this one. Most of it's not too bad, I don't think for people such as yourself? But then there's a couple gratuitous (beautiful if you're inclined to think so) close ups of hives at certain points. Not at all okay.
The only part I'd watch is the very end after the beekeeper/actupuncturist lady's been caught where Beverly goes to Hannibal's house? But GIFs on tumblr are floating around that show enough to get a sense of how that went down with the whole Slenderman reveal and stuff.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on March 25, 2014
there is actually a cut out there of the episode with all the Bee-stuff removed. It's the Bee-phobia cut. It's about ten minutes less.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Weehauken Whelk murders are introduced with this song I insist
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on March 25, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 PM on March 25, 2014
Furnished with what? He can't go too nice, what about stains? I feel like those plastic sofa covers or even Scotchgard would ruin the look of nearly anything, but what's the alternative -- stainless steel and a hose, like in a vet's office?
I dunno, maybe he's a fan of the FBI's Behavioral Science building or Brutalist architecture in general. I could see a dungeon made of poured and polished concrete sporting well-varnished maple accent panels and decorated with carefully selected, luxuriously textured, tertiary toned fabrics made of easy-to-incinerate natural fibers.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:34 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I dunno, maybe he's a fan of the FBI's Behavioral Science building or Brutalist architecture in general. I could see a dungeon made of poured and polished concrete sporting well-varnished maple accent panels and decorated with carefully selected, luxuriously textured, tertiary toned fabrics made of easy-to-incinerate natural fibers.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:34 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Admit it, this whole thread is an excuse to keep talking about Hannibal. ADMIT IT.
I'm okay with that.
Also in this thread I learned that people are afraid of a bunch of small holes.
posted by Justinian at 8:37 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm okay with that.
Also in this thread I learned that people are afraid of a bunch of small holes.
posted by Justinian at 8:37 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Presumably, in addition to all the other super-human talents Hannibal possesses, he is also a skilled carpenter who can replace the floorboards seamlessly.
I think Hannibal is meticulous enough that he'd have attic stock of any and all of the flooring in his house, juuust in case of some yet unforeseen, hard to clean up murder that might happen out of the blue.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2014
I think Hannibal is meticulous enough that he'd have attic stock of any and all of the flooring in his house, juuust in case of some yet unforeseen, hard to clean up murder that might happen out of the blue.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2014
I feel like that last shot has to mean something, beyond the beauty of it - it implies what's happened without showing what's happened. But it's also a good way of leaving a clue that Hannibal might miss. He's going to get found out this season - and though he's getting careless, he's not really slipping just yet. I also like the idea that Bev's last act is to leave a clue for someone (Jack?) to put the pieces together.
It was interesting to read in the post the idea that they avoided showing a physical altercation between Hannibal and Bev, because - from the actor's perspective - they didn't want to show violence against this female character. Though we've seen violence perpetrated against women in the show before, notably when Will re-enacted the death of the nurse by Gideon last season.
I'm glad they went subtle in this case - Hannibal's movement was enough to imply what comes next, but mostly I'm scared they didn't show it so that we can see Will recreate it in this week's episode. That will be horrific.
posted by crossoverman at 9:13 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
It was interesting to read in the post the idea that they avoided showing a physical altercation between Hannibal and Bev, because - from the actor's perspective - they didn't want to show violence against this female character. Though we've seen violence perpetrated against women in the show before, notably when Will re-enacted the death of the nurse by Gideon last season.
I'm glad they went subtle in this case - Hannibal's movement was enough to imply what comes next, but mostly I'm scared they didn't show it so that we can see Will recreate it in this week's episode. That will be horrific.
posted by crossoverman at 9:13 PM on March 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm scared they didn't show it so that we can see Will recreate it in this week's episode
If they didn't want to show Hannibal doing it, no way they'll show Will doing it either, and I'm all the better for it. Much like how the more subtle episode ending is all the more devastating for it, having Will empath it and only show how it completely overloads Will by looking at Hugh Dancy's face/physical response... I think that'd be at least as emotionally wrenching without the shock value violence.
Murder basement spoilers
I lolled IRL. (for those wary, it is not actual spoilerz)
posted by sparkletone at 11:20 PM on March 25, 2014
If they didn't want to show Hannibal doing it, no way they'll show Will doing it either, and I'm all the better for it. Much like how the more subtle episode ending is all the more devastating for it, having Will empath it and only show how it completely overloads Will by looking at Hugh Dancy's face/physical response... I think that'd be at least as emotionally wrenching without the shock value violence.
Murder basement spoilers
I lolled IRL. (for those wary, it is not actual spoilerz)
posted by sparkletone at 11:20 PM on March 25, 2014
Okay I have a lot of things bothering me and i wrote it in the other thread by mistake
posted by tel3path at 2:02 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by tel3path at 2:02 AM on March 26, 2014
Trypophobia. Wow. I've had this all my life. I didn't know it was a thing. I'm fine with beehives, but some of the other triggers mentioned online. Yeah.
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:59 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:59 AM on March 26, 2014
Swiping the pendulum backwards, we have a WOC character running headlong and inadequateky motivated into a dangerous situation. She is then killed. They put just enough writing into the situation to get her killed, but not enough to justify her decisions, which is a bad sign of a fridging.
The explained motivation is she was rushing to help Will, which doesn't help in any defense. Getting killed does not save Will Graham, it just has the WOC winning a Darwin Award for the sake of a man, which, like, no.
What I do think is underemphasized, though, is that it would really really bother Bev to think she'd inadvertently helped to do a grave injustice to someone who worked next to her every day and whose only wish was to save the lives of others. And that didn't really come through to the audience much. That would light a fire under someone like her, I think. But there still wasn't enough urgency to justify why she would be such a bull in a china shop about it. So far, so not great.
Now take a step back in time. The WOC was killed because, like the other women before her, she was one of the few smart enough to see Hannibal for what he was. Good. She is killed because her status in the story is higher than that of the boring white guys. She is put in a place of honour and then, because of the nature of the story, is killed because of it. This doesn't bother me in the context of the story considering the story is called Hannibal. He eats people. Accept it.
Bev's death affects us because it's time Hannibal killed someone we'll actually miss. She is the only one with a developed enough relationship with Will to get her into this position, the one given the most screen time, and yeah it will drive Will's story but it will also upset the audience a lot. On the one hand, this is the way the character was written and they chose to write the WOC character this way. On the other hand, fine. If being the most developed character gets you killed, on a show like Hannibal it might be worth being the most developed character even if you're out of work a lot sooner. They made the WOC the most developed character? Okay. It's Hannibal, being killed is part of it.
There are red shirt characters killed in this episode as well - two elderly males. In the previous episode two male police must have been at least injured in the explosion, but we literally don't notice. Also two male law enforcers get killed, we don't care, they're there for the story. Admittedly red shirt characters are not the same as regular cast that we care about. But still. A WOC gets killed and suddenly it matters to the audience and to the cast? ....good????
posted by tel3path at 4:05 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
The explained motivation is she was rushing to help Will, which doesn't help in any defense. Getting killed does not save Will Graham, it just has the WOC winning a Darwin Award for the sake of a man, which, like, no.
What I do think is underemphasized, though, is that it would really really bother Bev to think she'd inadvertently helped to do a grave injustice to someone who worked next to her every day and whose only wish was to save the lives of others. And that didn't really come through to the audience much. That would light a fire under someone like her, I think. But there still wasn't enough urgency to justify why she would be such a bull in a china shop about it. So far, so not great.
Now take a step back in time. The WOC was killed because, like the other women before her, she was one of the few smart enough to see Hannibal for what he was. Good. She is killed because her status in the story is higher than that of the boring white guys. She is put in a place of honour and then, because of the nature of the story, is killed because of it. This doesn't bother me in the context of the story considering the story is called Hannibal. He eats people. Accept it.
Bev's death affects us because it's time Hannibal killed someone we'll actually miss. She is the only one with a developed enough relationship with Will to get her into this position, the one given the most screen time, and yeah it will drive Will's story but it will also upset the audience a lot. On the one hand, this is the way the character was written and they chose to write the WOC character this way. On the other hand, fine. If being the most developed character gets you killed, on a show like Hannibal it might be worth being the most developed character even if you're out of work a lot sooner. They made the WOC the most developed character? Okay. It's Hannibal, being killed is part of it.
There are red shirt characters killed in this episode as well - two elderly males. In the previous episode two male police must have been at least injured in the explosion, but we literally don't notice. Also two male law enforcers get killed, we don't care, they're there for the story. Admittedly red shirt characters are not the same as regular cast that we care about. But still. A WOC gets killed and suddenly it matters to the audience and to the cast? ....good????
posted by tel3path at 4:05 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
That makes me sad too, but f I'm watching a show as escapism from the thought that a crazed killer might decide that today's the day to kill me or someone beloved by me, Hannibal might not be that show.
I think some of the audience had expectations of this show that weren't realistic. I always did think Fuller et al were setting themselves up for a backlash and i winced when he called himself a feminist, but there it is.
If people who objeçt to TV violence think they have finally found a violent TV show that they can watch without colliding with any forms of violence they object to, then what would that look like? So far, it seems to look like treating male characters as expendable and their deaths as a joke, and that doesn't say anything good about anyone who thinks that's just fine, if you ask me. Or if it means removing the violence, that means portraying a violent bloodthirsty serial killer as less evil and violent than he is, which is sugarcoating. Or limiting the amount of peril that female characters or nonwhite characters can be in, which is nannying.
And you know, they did kill a big burly dude just last week. You can say that's not "problematic" because the show didn't make murder porn of that. Andrew Sykes was a plot-device character who existed solely to get killed and thereby advance the story of the two male leads, and whose death does not matter one iota outside of that. But it depends where your boundaries are, doesn't it? Would it still be problematic if Andrew Sykes were a developed character who'd had a lot of screen time - would that make it better or worse? Would we want dullwhitemale's character development to take screen time away from someone else, yet again? If Andrew Sykes were a female red shirt character would that be better or worse? Would we say that this is just another female character thrown into the meat grinder then? If Andrew Sykes were a developed female character who got killed in an upsetting way we'd say the same things as about Bev, so here we are again.
I don't know how much of my irritation about the cheese-paring selective acceptance of the show's violence can be attributed to my strictly pacifist views about violence in real life, and my generally skeptical view of TV violence and how it's usually portrayed within the context of a redemptive violence myth that influences how we view violence in real life. That stage fighting that everyone thought was just the best thing ever? The way fighting is usually portrayed onscreen, and that scene was no exception, keeps the fight going on unrealistically long. People don't know how unrealistic it is, and scenes like that can demonstrably lead, in real life, to single-punch deaths that are basically misadventure because the person throwing the punch had no idea how little it actually takes, in reality, to do another human body serious harm. We had people on the blue actually talking as if it was believable Jack could survive a spurting neck wound, you know? (yeah maybe the character will survive, but it's absolutely not in any way realistic that he would.) And Hannibal unscathed from a blow to the head? Say jack survives that injury on the show, what will people do if they see someone get a comparable injury in real life? Stand around knitting a sweater because they don't fucking get how urgent it is and they think Hannibal and other shows like it had anything to do with reality? I totally have a problem with things like the opening fight scene, but it doesn't stop me watching the show.
Media violence does matter, and not just when it's against women, and i say this as a feminist as well as a pacifist. Maybe people should rethink their views about violent media as a whole, because it's not fair to start watching a show called Hannibal and then get surprised when the day comes that it serves up violence that's not to your liking.
posted by tel3path at 5:44 AM on March 26, 2014
I think some of the audience had expectations of this show that weren't realistic. I always did think Fuller et al were setting themselves up for a backlash and i winced when he called himself a feminist, but there it is.
If people who objeçt to TV violence think they have finally found a violent TV show that they can watch without colliding with any forms of violence they object to, then what would that look like? So far, it seems to look like treating male characters as expendable and their deaths as a joke, and that doesn't say anything good about anyone who thinks that's just fine, if you ask me. Or if it means removing the violence, that means portraying a violent bloodthirsty serial killer as less evil and violent than he is, which is sugarcoating. Or limiting the amount of peril that female characters or nonwhite characters can be in, which is nannying.
And you know, they did kill a big burly dude just last week. You can say that's not "problematic" because the show didn't make murder porn of that. Andrew Sykes was a plot-device character who existed solely to get killed and thereby advance the story of the two male leads, and whose death does not matter one iota outside of that. But it depends where your boundaries are, doesn't it? Would it still be problematic if Andrew Sykes were a developed character who'd had a lot of screen time - would that make it better or worse? Would we want dullwhitemale's character development to take screen time away from someone else, yet again? If Andrew Sykes were a female red shirt character would that be better or worse? Would we say that this is just another female character thrown into the meat grinder then? If Andrew Sykes were a developed female character who got killed in an upsetting way we'd say the same things as about Bev, so here we are again.
I don't know how much of my irritation about the cheese-paring selective acceptance of the show's violence can be attributed to my strictly pacifist views about violence in real life, and my generally skeptical view of TV violence and how it's usually portrayed within the context of a redemptive violence myth that influences how we view violence in real life. That stage fighting that everyone thought was just the best thing ever? The way fighting is usually portrayed onscreen, and that scene was no exception, keeps the fight going on unrealistically long. People don't know how unrealistic it is, and scenes like that can demonstrably lead, in real life, to single-punch deaths that are basically misadventure because the person throwing the punch had no idea how little it actually takes, in reality, to do another human body serious harm. We had people on the blue actually talking as if it was believable Jack could survive a spurting neck wound, you know? (yeah maybe the character will survive, but it's absolutely not in any way realistic that he would.) And Hannibal unscathed from a blow to the head? Say jack survives that injury on the show, what will people do if they see someone get a comparable injury in real life? Stand around knitting a sweater because they don't fucking get how urgent it is and they think Hannibal and other shows like it had anything to do with reality? I totally have a problem with things like the opening fight scene, but it doesn't stop me watching the show.
Media violence does matter, and not just when it's against women, and i say this as a feminist as well as a pacifist. Maybe people should rethink their views about violent media as a whole, because it's not fair to start watching a show called Hannibal and then get surprised when the day comes that it serves up violence that's not to your liking.
posted by tel3path at 5:44 AM on March 26, 2014
But what did Bev see in the basement that was so jaw-droppingly horrifying/amaze-balls that she didn't notice Hannibal creeping up on her?
It's explicitly stated in the novels that several folks left the police force after seeing Hannibal's basement. So while it was never explicitly described, remember this is the guy who escaped from custody in SOTL by wearing another dude's face as a mask.
posted by localroger at 5:54 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's explicitly stated in the novels that several folks left the police force after seeing Hannibal's basement. So while it was never explicitly described, remember this is the guy who escaped from custody in SOTL by wearing another dude's face as a mask.
posted by localroger at 5:54 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
i winced when he called himself a feminist
Like, seriously? I think Fuller gets to lay his entire career out in front of you and call himself and feminist and YOU DON'T GET TO BLINK. OR WINCE.
There may be a long, long discussion to be had about whether Hannibal is a feminist text or not. But I think Brian Fuller gets to call himself a feminist and not be questioned about it. Hannibal is not the only show he's written.
posted by crossoverman at 6:03 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like, seriously? I think Fuller gets to lay his entire career out in front of you and call himself and feminist and YOU DON'T GET TO BLINK. OR WINCE.
There may be a long, long discussion to be had about whether Hannibal is a feminist text or not. But I think Brian Fuller gets to call himself a feminist and not be questioned about it. Hannibal is not the only show he's written.
posted by crossoverman at 6:03 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Whether or not he's a feminist, he sure was sticking his neck out, wasn't he?
posted by tel3path at 6:06 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 6:06 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
To elucidate: if you call yourself a feminist, there are eventually going to be people who get enraged with you over it, either because they think you are one, or because they think you're not one. (Much the same as calling yourself a pacifist.)
So with all that kind of talk surrounding the show, this reaction was bound to come sooner or later.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on March 26, 2014
So with all that kind of talk surrounding the show, this reaction was bound to come sooner or later.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on March 26, 2014
Bryan Fuller's work has gained enough cred with me that I am fine with him calling himself a feminist, and confident that he is going to find ways to shift the gender balance a bit better, to compensate for Hettienne gone and Gillian off working on other things. I'm really sad that a great character is gone but not angry about it from a feminist perspective.
I don't have as much confidence/familiarity with Bryan on race issues, and I'd like to see him speak out a bit more about his thoughts and plans for racial diversity on his show as he's done for addressing the gender balance. Maybe I'm not reading the right interviews, or he's not getting asked the right questions, to address that stuff. I hope that shifts. I also hope we can get Hettienne back for some fishing sequences or something.
Of course, honesty compels me to admit I am a squeeing Hannibal-the-show (not Hannibal-the-character) fangirl, fully convinced this is the best thing on television right now, so I am not entirely clear-minded about any of this. Excuse me, I have to go rewatch the Hannibal-and-Will-get-fancied-up-for-court sequence five or six times in a row.
posted by Stacey at 10:11 AM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't have as much confidence/familiarity with Bryan on race issues, and I'd like to see him speak out a bit more about his thoughts and plans for racial diversity on his show as he's done for addressing the gender balance. Maybe I'm not reading the right interviews, or he's not getting asked the right questions, to address that stuff. I hope that shifts. I also hope we can get Hettienne back for some fishing sequences or something.
Of course, honesty compels me to admit I am a squeeing Hannibal-the-show (not Hannibal-the-character) fangirl, fully convinced this is the best thing on television right now, so I am not entirely clear-minded about any of this. Excuse me, I have to go rewatch the Hannibal-and-Will-get-fancied-up-for-court sequence five or six times in a row.
posted by Stacey at 10:11 AM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
*audible zipper*
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Somebody pointed out that Hannibal dresses in one suit for court in that sequence, but arrives in court in a different suit.
Word of God confirms that this is indeed a callback to Will's imagined mind-meld with Garrett Jacob Hobbs after he shot him.
posted by tel3path at 10:23 AM on March 26, 2014
Word of God confirms that this is indeed a callback to Will's imagined mind-meld with Garrett Jacob Hobbs after he shot him.
posted by tel3path at 10:23 AM on March 26, 2014
Hannibal is thinking about Will thinking about Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 10:26 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by tel3path at 10:26 AM on March 26, 2014
Soooo..there have been some astonishingly dorky conversations about this recently but What Is The Case Against Hannibal Lecter? I mean, from the data and POV available to the Not-Will, Not-Bedelia people? Annnnd what is The Case Against WIll Graham if you discount any of the planted evidense Ear-exlucded?
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 AM on March 26, 2014
HIS NAME RHYMES WITH CANNIBAL, THE WHELK. WHAT MORE CASE DO YOU NEED?
posted by Stacey at 10:28 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by Stacey at 10:28 AM on March 26, 2014
IN-universe reasons, where no one seems to .....mention the way he looks and acts like a Fancy Serial Killer.
posted by The Whelk at 10:29 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:29 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I cannot get past the idea that Alana, being the one person who's spent the most time with Hannibal, would not have perceived and dismissed some weird stuff about him. I really do believe that, of all people, she ought to know.
The Grandmother in the Flannery O'Connor story has all the information to know that maybe driving in the direction she suggests isn't such a great idea, but she doesn't put it together. Of course, all the other characters have the same information, and they don't put it together either.
So if she's playing that role, she is playing the role of someone who has the information but isn't putting it together in her mind.
What the hell information could she unknowingly have, I wonder. Or is it as I thought yesterday: Hannibal has literally been rendering her unconscious whenever she gets up in his business.
And why would she be (I'm projecting forward, but I think this is how it will pan out) the Last Woman Standing when it comes to being 100% totally not suspicious of Hannibal at all?
posted by tel3path at 10:36 AM on March 26, 2014
The Grandmother in the Flannery O'Connor story has all the information to know that maybe driving in the direction she suggests isn't such a great idea, but she doesn't put it together. Of course, all the other characters have the same information, and they don't put it together either.
So if she's playing that role, she is playing the role of someone who has the information but isn't putting it together in her mind.
What the hell information could she unknowingly have, I wonder. Or is it as I thought yesterday: Hannibal has literally been rendering her unconscious whenever she gets up in his business.
And why would she be (I'm projecting forward, but I think this is how it will pan out) the Last Woman Standing when it comes to being 100% totally not suspicious of Hannibal at all?
posted by tel3path at 10:36 AM on March 26, 2014
There's some unconscious self-preservation going on I think. Even allowing that suspicion into her head as the potential to ret-con her entire professional carrer.
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on March 26, 2014
Didn't they say that Alana trained with Hannibal? If so, I could totally see it being difficult to go from "here's this brilliant guy who trained me and helped shape my idea of what awesome should be in this field!" to "wait, this guy is totally eating people."
posted by rmd1023 at 10:39 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 10:39 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I get that, but I do not get how they're sufficient reason for not noticing that he's a cannibal.
posted by tel3path at 10:40 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by tel3path at 10:40 AM on March 26, 2014
also, in a meta/story sense the show needs a good pool of people Still On Hannibal's Side for when FOR IS REVEALED.
(I cannot wait for the trail cause he's gonna need the insanity defense and the craziest fucking shit is going to come out of that mouth to get it.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:41 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
(I cannot wait for the trail cause he's gonna need the insanity defense and the craziest fucking shit is going to come out of that mouth to get it.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:41 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Good point. I wonder if Alana will pitch his insanity defense? If she's not gibbering in the loony bin by then, of course.
It's just, like, she must know all the stories and know about all the rationalisations people come out with for not noticing that someone's not a good guy. If she's holding to rationalisations on emotional investment alone, what the hell kind of emotions is she invested in? No, having a crush on him is not enough. (cf. Will) No, professional admiration is not enough.
Like trust me, if you really started to get dark suspicions of whatever kind about someone, and you knew what Alana knows about how the human mind works, you're gonna distance yourself from them even if you had a good relationship with them up till then. If you started saying to yourself "well, he was probably just run over by an offal cart!" and stuff like that, you'd know what you sounded like.
At this point she just does not have *enough* investment (that we know of) in Hannibal as a person that she couldn't cope with giving him the side-eye. So I have to think that there's more to the story.
posted by tel3path at 10:48 AM on March 26, 2014
It's just, like, she must know all the stories and know about all the rationalisations people come out with for not noticing that someone's not a good guy. If she's holding to rationalisations on emotional investment alone, what the hell kind of emotions is she invested in? No, having a crush on him is not enough. (cf. Will) No, professional admiration is not enough.
Like trust me, if you really started to get dark suspicions of whatever kind about someone, and you knew what Alana knows about how the human mind works, you're gonna distance yourself from them even if you had a good relationship with them up till then. If you started saying to yourself "well, he was probably just run over by an offal cart!" and stuff like that, you'd know what you sounded like.
At this point she just does not have *enough* investment (that we know of) in Hannibal as a person that she couldn't cope with giving him the side-eye. So I have to think that there's more to the story.
posted by tel3path at 10:48 AM on March 26, 2014
I actually find that the show has lost its way with Alana.
posted by jeather at 11:07 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by jeather at 11:07 AM on March 26, 2014
It almost feels like they're saving her something in the future but I have no idea what.
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 11:09 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wonder if part of the backlash against the Beverly story (which I am sad about because I loved Hettienne Park) is because Alana and Freddie have been sidelined, Abigail is dead, Will's lawyer is a white guy, Chilton is a guy, the two new techs are guys, Bella is dying and Bedelia left the show, so the only female character who was present and active is about to be part of a gory tableau after making fairly stupid mistakes that aren't entirely in character.
posted by jeather at 11:14 AM on March 26, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by jeather at 11:14 AM on March 26, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yeah I'm really hoping that's the case.
And I dunno. It could be my own admittedly skewed perspective on this, but it seems to me that he's a little more meticulous about the person suit around Alana? Like he remembers to very nearly have facial expressions at her.
posted by dogheart at 11:15 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
And I dunno. It could be my own admittedly skewed perspective on this, but it seems to me that he's a little more meticulous about the person suit around Alana? Like he remembers to very nearly have facial expressions at her.
posted by dogheart at 11:15 AM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
He's picking it up from her. That's why he needs Alana around.
posted by tel3path at 11:20 AM on March 26, 2014
posted by tel3path at 11:20 AM on March 26, 2014
Oh yeah, she totally unwittingly (?) helped tailor that person suit. I mean it's there in the first episode: "I learned as much from her as she did from me."
posted by dogheart at 11:44 AM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by dogheart at 11:44 AM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yes, jeather, I think you're right.
I know Bedelia will be back, but it's possible she'll only come back to be killed. [1]
We know Kade P(r)urnell will eventually be killed, so her presence is small comfort.
The prosecution is played by a woman, but she doesn't make much impression. Will's (guy) lawyer has FAR more presence, such that the prosecution lady might as well not be there.
There will be more women later, like Margot Verger, but I guess there is the objection that they'll probably get killed too so idk.
But still, everyone is potential Hannibal Chow.
I really really liked Bev, though. She was the closest to being rational and evidence-based of all the characters, and particularly the science team. I just liked the way she thought. She was like: evidence evidence evidence evidence evidence NOPE WILL evidence evidence UM... INTUITION? evidence evidence INTUITION????? Intuition... INTUITION SAYS: MUST SEEK EVIDENCE and she did. I also thought that she was sensitive without being precious. Yeah she might put truth above diplomacy at times, but overall she was more sensitive than most of the others. We really need a few more like her.
[1] Willelia 5eva
posted by tel3path at 11:46 AM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
I know Bedelia will be back, but it's possible she'll only come back to be killed. [1]
We know Kade P(r)urnell will eventually be killed, so her presence is small comfort.
The prosecution is played by a woman, but she doesn't make much impression. Will's (guy) lawyer has FAR more presence, such that the prosecution lady might as well not be there.
There will be more women later, like Margot Verger, but I guess there is the objection that they'll probably get killed too so idk.
But still, everyone is potential Hannibal Chow.
I really really liked Bev, though. She was the closest to being rational and evidence-based of all the characters, and particularly the science team. I just liked the way she thought. She was like: evidence evidence evidence evidence evidence NOPE WILL evidence evidence UM... INTUITION? evidence evidence INTUITION????? Intuition... INTUITION SAYS: MUST SEEK EVIDENCE and she did. I also thought that she was sensitive without being precious. Yeah she might put truth above diplomacy at times, but overall she was more sensitive than most of the others. We really need a few more like her.
[1] Willelia 5eva
posted by tel3path at 11:46 AM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
I love Alana (and identify with her a little bit), and thought her role in the first season was great, but yeah, she's been missing for a lot of this season. I hope she has meatier things to do coming up. And not like that, Hannibal.
I think having Bev's death in the cards for so long, they maybe missed a small opportunity to make her exploration of Hannibal's house a little more in-character. She was helping Will, but it's not like he was under immediate pressure - the case had just ended in a mistrial, so there's time to pull together more evidence. If you can make the case that this is one of the few times she knows for sure that Hannibal will be away, or if some form of evidence had to be obtained soon or else Will would be in even deeper trouble, you could understand the urgency a little better. Instead, it seemed a little off-the-cuff for somebody contemplating an illegal search of someone's house.
On the other hand, it didn't really read as a fridging to me. Fridging seems more like the term you'd use for a character who only ever was "the girlfriend" or "the wife" and had no context in any story larger than that very specifically defined role. The wife and child in Gladiator are fridged - they are in the story only for the purpose of dying to motivate the hero's journey. Bev was a person, I could imagine a conversation with her, I could imagine her conversations with the other Sassy Scientists back at the lab when we weren't there to see.
If Bella hadn't slapped Hannibal, would he have hung out at the hospital longer, thus possibly missing Bev's break-in? That's the way it played out to me, but I'm not sure if it's supposed to be interpreted like that.
posted by PussKillian at 12:42 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think having Bev's death in the cards for so long, they maybe missed a small opportunity to make her exploration of Hannibal's house a little more in-character. She was helping Will, but it's not like he was under immediate pressure - the case had just ended in a mistrial, so there's time to pull together more evidence. If you can make the case that this is one of the few times she knows for sure that Hannibal will be away, or if some form of evidence had to be obtained soon or else Will would be in even deeper trouble, you could understand the urgency a little better. Instead, it seemed a little off-the-cuff for somebody contemplating an illegal search of someone's house.
On the other hand, it didn't really read as a fridging to me. Fridging seems more like the term you'd use for a character who only ever was "the girlfriend" or "the wife" and had no context in any story larger than that very specifically defined role. The wife and child in Gladiator are fridged - they are in the story only for the purpose of dying to motivate the hero's journey. Bev was a person, I could imagine a conversation with her, I could imagine her conversations with the other Sassy Scientists back at the lab when we weren't there to see.
If Bella hadn't slapped Hannibal, would he have hung out at the hospital longer, thus possibly missing Bev's break-in? That's the way it played out to me, but I'm not sure if it's supposed to be interpreted like that.
posted by PussKillian at 12:42 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, I think that's just what happened.
Why he'd think Bella would still want him around after that, I think is an example of how he doesn't really "get" people as well as he thinks he does.
posted by tel3path at 12:46 PM on March 26, 2014
Why he'd think Bella would still want him around after that, I think is an example of how he doesn't really "get" people as well as he thinks he does.
posted by tel3path at 12:46 PM on March 26, 2014
This is now the show intro as far as I'm concerned.
posted by sparkletone at 1:01 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 1:01 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
It is interesting to speculate on what he thought he'd get out of staying. Probably more prodding-Jack stuff. He may have figured Bella would be too out of it. Besides, he seems to love lurking by hospital bedsides playing emotional head games with people in the vicinity.
People have talked about how Hannibal lured Bev in, and I think he did, but it could easily have gone wrong for him despite his murder wizard powers. I wonder if he anticipated her doing something as gutsy as breaking in to search for evidence.
posted by PussKillian at 1:03 PM on March 26, 2014
People have talked about how Hannibal lured Bev in, and I think he did, but it could easily have gone wrong for him despite his murder wizard powers. I wonder if he anticipated her doing something as gutsy as breaking in to search for evidence.
posted by PussKillian at 1:03 PM on March 26, 2014
At least, now, it'll be harder for him to dick around with Bella's meds because he won't have visiting rights.
I mean if he's really determined, he'll find a way, but it'll be harder for him to just walk in.
posted by tel3path at 1:17 PM on March 26, 2014
I mean if he's really determined, he'll find a way, but it'll be harder for him to just walk in.
posted by tel3path at 1:17 PM on March 26, 2014
We know Kade P(r)urnell will eventually be killed, so her presence is small comfort.
See, this kind of argument sends me crazy. She's the gender-swapped version of Krendler from the novels. If she remains in that role for the run of the series, yes, she dies. But that's not until season six. That's a lot of seasons for her to be on the show. She could have been a white guy, but she's not.
For me, in the entire projected narrative of the show, we have three characters who are relatively safe: Will Graham, Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling (or Schmarlice Schmarling). And I'm not even that sure about Will and Hannibal, especially since the seventh season will be entirely up to Bryan Fuller and I feel like he'll at least want to kill his version of Hannibal. No one has got to tell that story before.
It's a weird situation to be in, knowing a lot of what narrative is coming years ahead. Sure, some women (all of them?) have been sidelined right now. Alana was very conspicuous by her absence in the most recent episode. I suspect that gender imbalance will change back soon.
But as of now, it's still the Will, Hannibal and Jack show. It can't really be anything else. I think Jack will survive this season - because I can't see how you really tell the Red Dragon/SOTL stories without him.
TL; DR. Everyone is up for being on Hannibal's dinner table over the course of seven seasons. (Long live, Clarice!)
posted by crossoverman at 2:46 PM on March 26, 2014
See, this kind of argument sends me crazy. She's the gender-swapped version of Krendler from the novels. If she remains in that role for the run of the series, yes, she dies. But that's not until season six. That's a lot of seasons for her to be on the show. She could have been a white guy, but she's not.
For me, in the entire projected narrative of the show, we have three characters who are relatively safe: Will Graham, Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling (or Schmarlice Schmarling). And I'm not even that sure about Will and Hannibal, especially since the seventh season will be entirely up to Bryan Fuller and I feel like he'll at least want to kill his version of Hannibal. No one has got to tell that story before.
It's a weird situation to be in, knowing a lot of what narrative is coming years ahead. Sure, some women (all of them?) have been sidelined right now. Alana was very conspicuous by her absence in the most recent episode. I suspect that gender imbalance will change back soon.
But as of now, it's still the Will, Hannibal and Jack show. It can't really be anything else. I think Jack will survive this season - because I can't see how you really tell the Red Dragon/SOTL stories without him.
TL; DR. Everyone is up for being on Hannibal's dinner table over the course of seven seasons. (Long live, Clarice!)
posted by crossoverman at 2:46 PM on March 26, 2014
Well, yeah. In case it wasn't clear, I think it's fine if Hannibal kills everybody in sight, in gruesome ways. [1]
IT'S WHAT HE DOES
HIS NAME IS HANNIBAL
I'm just trying to get a full understanding of why people are so upset.
But when it comes down to it I basically think HIS NAME IS HANNIBAL and people who don't want to see particular people get horribly killed should be watching a show whose main character is not a terrible, horrible killer.
[1] NOT THE DOGS
posted by tel3path at 2:57 PM on March 26, 2014
IT'S WHAT HE DOES
HIS NAME IS HANNIBAL
I'm just trying to get a full understanding of why people are so upset.
But when it comes down to it I basically think HIS NAME IS HANNIBAL and people who don't want to see particular people get horribly killed should be watching a show whose main character is not a terrible, horrible killer.
[1] NOT THE DOGS
posted by tel3path at 2:57 PM on March 26, 2014
As Hannibal said in season 1, he is very particular about what he puts in his body. The dogs are safe.
Everyone else, not so much. While we have a lot of scenes and dialog from the novels, we have a lot of them at different times and with different characters -- most notably so far the very Clarice-like Miriam Lass making the Wound Man connection instead of Will, and as we saw in s2e1 Jack having a knock-down-drag-out with Lecter that never happened in the novels, and which must almost inevitably lead either to Jack dying or Lecter's capture because Jack, not Will, made the critical connection.
I am starting to get suspicious that the entire Seven Season PlanTM is a gigantic put-on worthy of Hannibal himself, and we actually know fuck all about where this train is headed. These changes go far beyond the Starbucking of a few male original characters; they are major plot rearrangements which affect powerful character motivations in the original stories. If Miriam Lass shows up with a pulse I will be seriously ready to consider that she might be the New Improved Clarice Stand-In.
I could easily believe at this point that the real plan, especially with no SOTL character rights, is a compressed / extended / combined story where Red Dragon and SOTL are woven into a single story surrounding Dolarhyde. And if that's the real plan then nobody is safe, because all of the main characters except Clarice and Hannibal are out of the story by Hannibal and we already know Fuller doesn't like how Clarice's story resolves there.
posted by localroger at 3:13 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Everyone else, not so much. While we have a lot of scenes and dialog from the novels, we have a lot of them at different times and with different characters -- most notably so far the very Clarice-like Miriam Lass making the Wound Man connection instead of Will, and as we saw in s2e1 Jack having a knock-down-drag-out with Lecter that never happened in the novels, and which must almost inevitably lead either to Jack dying or Lecter's capture because Jack, not Will, made the critical connection.
I am starting to get suspicious that the entire Seven Season PlanTM is a gigantic put-on worthy of Hannibal himself, and we actually know fuck all about where this train is headed. These changes go far beyond the Starbucking of a few male original characters; they are major plot rearrangements which affect powerful character motivations in the original stories. If Miriam Lass shows up with a pulse I will be seriously ready to consider that she might be the New Improved Clarice Stand-In.
I could easily believe at this point that the real plan, especially with no SOTL character rights, is a compressed / extended / combined story where Red Dragon and SOTL are woven into a single story surrounding Dolarhyde. And if that's the real plan then nobody is safe, because all of the main characters except Clarice and Hannibal are out of the story by Hannibal and we already know Fuller doesn't like how Clarice's story resolves there.
posted by localroger at 3:13 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
And another thought -- if Lass returns, it might be because Hannibal seduced her, making her the version of Clarice seen at the end of Hannibal. In which case I would expect Fuller to very cheerfully kill her off for real.
posted by localroger at 3:15 PM on March 26, 2014
posted by localroger at 3:15 PM on March 26, 2014
I do hope that Fuller kills Hannibal in the end.
However, that would be part of the Redemptive Violence myth. Killing one bad guy doesn't do a lot to solve the problem of human evil.
posted by tel3path at 3:16 PM on March 26, 2014
However, that would be part of the Redemptive Violence myth. Killing one bad guy doesn't do a lot to solve the problem of human evil.
posted by tel3path at 3:16 PM on March 26, 2014
I do hope that Fuller kills Hannibal in the end.
This raises another interesting idea about misdirection and the original stories.
The original series is about transformation, and having whoever the investigator was in the third book Become is the thematically correct conclusion. Will doesn't Become because he's too jaded / knowing, Clarice doesn't Become because she's too earnest / naive, but Detective #3 will be, like baby bear's porridge, just right.
The TV series is shaping up differently though; the issue of Will Becoming is a lot mushier, and his motivations and experience are different than Book / Movie Will.
If, in this version, Hannibal is the Devil himself then having him walk off into the sunset is the thematically correct conclusion, because the Devil is immortal; you can't kill him, you can only win battles but never the war his existence represents. Kill the Devil and it's the end of the world, among other plot inconveniences.
But if Hannibal is a shamanic figure (even an evil one) as the books suggest, then it's not necessary for him to survive once his protoge has been started along the path. In fact his death might be necessary if, like the Sith lords, there can only be One and the point is to pass the title to the next generation.
In the book, Clarice can't do this because Jodie Foster as Sith lord, not so much. So instead she Becomes a different sort of godlike being and Hannibal goes domestic to partner with her. Which is not really the usual thematic conclusion to such a trilogy and is one reason for considering what Harris did there inferior.
But HAY YOU MONEY-GRUBBING FUCKERS WANTED MORE CLARICE SO HOW DO YA LIKE THEM APPLES AMIRITE.
posted by localroger at 3:36 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
This raises another interesting idea about misdirection and the original stories.
The original series is about transformation, and having whoever the investigator was in the third book Become is the thematically correct conclusion. Will doesn't Become because he's too jaded / knowing, Clarice doesn't Become because she's too earnest / naive, but Detective #3 will be, like baby bear's porridge, just right.
The TV series is shaping up differently though; the issue of Will Becoming is a lot mushier, and his motivations and experience are different than Book / Movie Will.
If, in this version, Hannibal is the Devil himself then having him walk off into the sunset is the thematically correct conclusion, because the Devil is immortal; you can't kill him, you can only win battles but never the war his existence represents. Kill the Devil and it's the end of the world, among other plot inconveniences.
But if Hannibal is a shamanic figure (even an evil one) as the books suggest, then it's not necessary for him to survive once his protoge has been started along the path. In fact his death might be necessary if, like the Sith lords, there can only be One and the point is to pass the title to the next generation.
In the book, Clarice can't do this because Jodie Foster as Sith lord, not so much. So instead she Becomes a different sort of godlike being and Hannibal goes domestic to partner with her. Which is not really the usual thematic conclusion to such a trilogy and is one reason for considering what Harris did there inferior.
But HAY YOU MONEY-GRUBBING FUCKERS WANTED MORE CLARICE SO HOW DO YA LIKE THEM APPLES AMIRITE.
posted by localroger at 3:36 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
as we saw in s2e1 Jack having a knock-down-drag-out with Lecter that never happened in the novels
I'm beginning to wonder if Jack ends up with the scar that Will got in the books. As The Whelk pointed out earlier, it's not like Will interviewing Hannibal in this version's Red Dragon needs him to be almost gutted, after a season of being forced to live with encephalitis.
And Will has already made the connections, so if Jack does the follow through and brings Hannibal down, I'm okay with that.
But everything else is up for grabs, then.
posted by crossoverman at 3:54 PM on March 26, 2014
I'm beginning to wonder if Jack ends up with the scar that Will got in the books. As The Whelk pointed out earlier, it's not like Will interviewing Hannibal in this version's Red Dragon needs him to be almost gutted, after a season of being forced to live with encephalitis.
And Will has already made the connections, so if Jack does the follow through and brings Hannibal down, I'm okay with that.
But everything else is up for grabs, then.
posted by crossoverman at 3:54 PM on March 26, 2014
I really really liked Bev, though. She was the closest to being rational and evidence-based of all the characters, and particularly the science team. I just liked the way she thought. She was like: evidence evidence evidence evidence evidence NOPE WILL evidence evidence UM... INTUITION? evidence evidence INTUITION????? Intuition... INTUITION SAYS: MUST SEEK EVIDENCE and she did. I also thought that she was sensitive without being precious. Yeah she might put truth above diplomacy at times, but overall she was more sensitive than most of the others. We really need a few more like her.
In retrospect, I see Bev as the person Will very much wishes he could be: confident, sociable, left-brained, and comfortable in her own skin. She shares some of Will's social clunkiness (first episode when she barges into the bedroom unannounced and cheerfully starts grilling Will about the nature of his instability) but had mitigating factors like being a member of a large, stable, intact family. She has a comfortable, jovial relationship with the other members of Team Sassy Science. Her intuition works harmoniously with her more analytical side. Like Will, she cares deeply about her friends and is extremely loyal (otherwise she wouldn't have been so angry with him when the evidence pointed to him as the murderer of Abigail) but has a much easier time asserting herself and creating healthy boundaries.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:54 PM on March 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
In retrospect, I see Bev as the person Will very much wishes he could be: confident, sociable, left-brained, and comfortable in her own skin. She shares some of Will's social clunkiness (first episode when she barges into the bedroom unannounced and cheerfully starts grilling Will about the nature of his instability) but had mitigating factors like being a member of a large, stable, intact family. She has a comfortable, jovial relationship with the other members of Team Sassy Science. Her intuition works harmoniously with her more analytical side. Like Will, she cares deeply about her friends and is extremely loyal (otherwise she wouldn't have been so angry with him when the evidence pointed to him as the murderer of Abigail) but has a much easier time asserting herself and creating healthy boundaries.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:54 PM on March 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
If Miriam Lass shows up with a pulse I will be seriously ready to consider that she might be the New Improved Clarice Stand-In.
Interesting theory.
posted by homunculus at 4:03 PM on March 26, 2014
Interesting theory.
posted by homunculus at 4:03 PM on March 26, 2014
Echolalia, YES. AND. Beverly VISIBLY gets the creeps from Hannibal in the very first conversation, and in every subsequent one. The visible creeps get bigger each time.
She is the ONLY character apart from Will who even begins to perceive that there's something off about him.
I wonder... after a loved one dies, we sometimes make a conscious decision to incorporate the qualities they had that we cherished. Perhaps Will will decide to incorporate Bev now. I do hope so.
[BUT NOT IN THE LITERAL SENSE THAT LECTER WOULD AAAGH NO I CAN'T FINISH THAT THOUGHT]
posted by tel3path at 4:09 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
She is the ONLY character apart from Will who even begins to perceive that there's something off about him.
I wonder... after a loved one dies, we sometimes make a conscious decision to incorporate the qualities they had that we cherished. Perhaps Will will decide to incorporate Bev now. I do hope so.
[BUT NOT IN THE LITERAL SENSE THAT LECTER WOULD AAAGH NO I CAN'T FINISH THAT THOUGHT]
posted by tel3path at 4:09 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
IF HE FEEDS ANY PART OF BEV TO ANY OF THE TEAM, I WILL GUT SOMEONE.
posted by crossoverman at 4:26 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by crossoverman at 4:26 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Jack having a knock-down-drag-out with Lecter that never happened in the novels, and which must almost inevitably lead either to Jack dying or Lecter's capture because Jack, not Will, made the critical connection.
I wouldn't be so sure about several things here:
1) Jack's death - Won't bother rehashing previous discussion in the other thread, but I don't think he's toast just based on what we saw.
2) Lecter's capture - Maybe you mean in a larger sense? I don't think Fuller would want to deprive anyone of at least a few episodes of Ripper On The Run.
3) We don't know that Jack makes the critical connection. We've seen nothing but him walking into a room and a fight starting. All we know right now about what happens before that is that he's beginning to question his certainty about Will's guilt, and even without spoilers it's not a huge stretch to imagine his suspicions growing... But that doesn't mean he makes the critical insight that leads to the show down.
We've still got more than half the season to go! Extrapolating from where we are is good and proper, but treating it as a done deal is stretching things, I think.
I am starting to get suspicious that the entire Seven Season PlanTM is a gigantic put-on worthy of Hannibal himself, and we actually know fuck all about where this train is headed
I don't think Fuller is ever being disingenuous about that stuff when he says it. I take it as more of a "this is where my head is at right now" than a "THIS IS SET IN STOOOOOOOOONE." Things can end up very different from what you might've intended when you sit down and really start hashing out all the thorny details.
If he thinks he's got a better idea than what was in the general plan a year or more ago when they were wrapping up production on S1 and starting to do press and stuff... I'm totally fine with him altering things. They've pretty much all been interesting decisions so far if nothing else (nobody saw that fight coming till the promo sprang it on us).
posted by sparkletone at 6:09 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't be so sure about several things here:
1) Jack's death - Won't bother rehashing previous discussion in the other thread, but I don't think he's toast just based on what we saw.
2) Lecter's capture - Maybe you mean in a larger sense? I don't think Fuller would want to deprive anyone of at least a few episodes of Ripper On The Run.
3) We don't know that Jack makes the critical connection. We've seen nothing but him walking into a room and a fight starting. All we know right now about what happens before that is that he's beginning to question his certainty about Will's guilt, and even without spoilers it's not a huge stretch to imagine his suspicions growing... But that doesn't mean he makes the critical insight that leads to the show down.
We've still got more than half the season to go! Extrapolating from where we are is good and proper, but treating it as a done deal is stretching things, I think.
I am starting to get suspicious that the entire Seven Season PlanTM is a gigantic put-on worthy of Hannibal himself, and we actually know fuck all about where this train is headed
I don't think Fuller is ever being disingenuous about that stuff when he says it. I take it as more of a "this is where my head is at right now" than a "THIS IS SET IN STOOOOOOOOONE." Things can end up very different from what you might've intended when you sit down and really start hashing out all the thorny details.
If he thinks he's got a better idea than what was in the general plan a year or more ago when they were wrapping up production on S1 and starting to do press and stuff... I'm totally fine with him altering things. They've pretty much all been interesting decisions so far if nothing else (nobody saw that fight coming till the promo sprang it on us).
posted by sparkletone at 6:09 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
2) Lecter's capture - Maybe you mean in a larger sense? I don't think Fuller would want to deprive anyone of at least a few episodes of Ripper On The Run.
I'm convinced that Season Three will be mostly Ripper on the Run.
posted by crossoverman at 6:15 PM on March 26, 2014
I'm convinced that Season Three will be mostly Ripper on the Run.
posted by crossoverman at 6:15 PM on March 26, 2014
So this just arrived a couple of minutes ago, a gift from my husband. He doesn't quite understand Fannibaldom (his reaction to the show is "meh") but he "gets" me.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:20 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by echolalia67 at 6:20 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm convinced that Season Three will be mostly Ripper on the Run.
That's the stated plan as of a while ago. I honestly think that possibility is too tantalizing for Fuller to ignore. Given how insanely perfect last season's final 30 seconds or so were, I'm incredibly curious as to how this one will halt. I can't think the resolution of the fight and Hannibal off and running is quite enough of a cliff hanger. I feel like that'd be more of an Empire Strikes Back-style "Luke and Leia stare off into the distance thinking about the terrible thing they've learned" ending... But maybe that'll be enough?
It seems so far off! (But I know as it nears I will be saying, "NOOO. NOT HIATUS 2: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG.")
posted by sparkletone at 6:20 PM on March 26, 2014
That's the stated plan as of a while ago. I honestly think that possibility is too tantalizing for Fuller to ignore. Given how insanely perfect last season's final 30 seconds or so were, I'm incredibly curious as to how this one will halt. I can't think the resolution of the fight and Hannibal off and running is quite enough of a cliff hanger. I feel like that'd be more of an Empire Strikes Back-style "Luke and Leia stare off into the distance thinking about the terrible thing they've learned" ending... But maybe that'll be enough?
It seems so far off! (But I know as it nears I will be saying, "NOOO. NOT HIATUS 2: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG.")
posted by sparkletone at 6:20 PM on March 26, 2014
So this just arrived a couple of minutes ago
Kawaii Will and puppies!
posted by sparkletone at 6:22 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Kawaii Will and puppies!
posted by sparkletone at 6:22 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think Fuller would want to deprive anyone of at least a few episodes of Ripper On The Run.
If we don't get Season Three, man, I'm going to be devastated. Although, okay, I seem to recall Mads saying something to the effect in one interview or another-- this season's ending isn't terrible at all if you're rooting for Hannibal. Which makes me wonder how the hell he's going to get around stabbing Crawford in the neck.
Someone who isn't cracked out on cold medicine-- did Fuller and Co. explicitly say the fight scene is from the last episode? Because I'm wondering if twelve weeks really is twelve episodes.
(echolalia67, that is a quality husband, and a quality shirt. :D)
posted by dogheart at 6:28 PM on March 26, 2014
If we don't get Season Three, man, I'm going to be devastated. Although, okay, I seem to recall Mads saying something to the effect in one interview or another-- this season's ending isn't terrible at all if you're rooting for Hannibal. Which makes me wonder how the hell he's going to get around stabbing Crawford in the neck.
Someone who isn't cracked out on cold medicine-- did Fuller and Co. explicitly say the fight scene is from the last episode? Because I'm wondering if twelve weeks really is twelve episodes.
(echolalia67, that is a quality husband, and a quality shirt. :D)
posted by dogheart at 6:28 PM on March 26, 2014
I can't think the resolution of the fight and Hannibal off and running is quite enough of a cliff hanger.
1. Resolution of fight
2. Will standing around telling everyone "I told you so" and "WE ATE PEOPLE"
3. ??????
4. Profit
posted by crossoverman at 6:31 PM on March 26, 2014
1. Resolution of fight
2. Will standing around telling everyone "I told you so" and "WE ATE PEOPLE"
3. ??????
4. Profit
posted by crossoverman at 6:31 PM on March 26, 2014
dogheart -- no, that was me thinking it would be the last scene of the season but no, we have no confirmation on that. And it's looking less likely by the week.
I do think the fact that there is a fight between Jack and Hannibal is a critical juncture. If Jack survives Hannibal will at the least be on the run, and if he dies he's not there any more diverging us further from the original stories.
posted by localroger at 6:33 PM on March 26, 2014
I do think the fact that there is a fight between Jack and Hannibal is a critical juncture. If Jack survives Hannibal will at the least be on the run, and if he dies he's not there any more diverging us further from the original stories.
posted by localroger at 6:33 PM on March 26, 2014
3. From the POV of whatever Bev saw when we were seeing her react, the basement is now full of cops. They part like the Red Sea though as Will is led through -- maybe still in handcuffs, maybe not. Will looks at the camera and the pendulum sweeps replacing the scene with black. Fin.
posted by localroger at 6:35 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by localroger at 6:35 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
did Fuller and Co. explicitly say the fight scene is from the last episode? Because I'm wondering if twelve weeks really is twelve episodes.
There's been no explicit confirmation of anything about that. All anyone saying that is going by is the episode count and the title card that says 12 weeks till throw down from the start of the season.
posted by sparkletone at 6:38 PM on March 26, 2014
There's been no explicit confirmation of anything about that. All anyone saying that is going by is the episode count and the title card that says 12 weeks till throw down from the start of the season.
posted by sparkletone at 6:38 PM on March 26, 2014
3. From the POV of whatever Bev saw when we were seeing her react, the basement is now full of cops. They part like the Red Sea though as Will is led through -- maybe still in handcuffs, maybe not. Will looks at the camera and the pendulum sweeps replacing the scene with black. Fin.
THAT WOULD BE ... AHHHH. That would be something. That is definitely both plausible and the right kind of emotionally wrenching since we know full well what empathing does to Will's mental health (even when Hannibal's not messing with him).
posted by sparkletone at 6:43 PM on March 26, 2014
THAT WOULD BE ... AHHHH. That would be something. That is definitely both plausible and the right kind of emotionally wrenching since we know full well what empathing does to Will's mental health (even when Hannibal's not messing with him).
posted by sparkletone at 6:43 PM on March 26, 2014
Speaking of future extrapolations and how to end a given season... Since a lot of people (even myself to a certain extent) felt like the Will's trial episode was kind of a bit of a... not a stumble, but definitely the worst of what we've seen so far this season... I'm curious as to how they'll handle Hannibal's trial.
Legal drama doesn't exactly seem like the show's strong suit but that trial would be a huge lurid circus. Harris gets around it by just ... having him imprisoned already when we meet him and the catching and all that happens off camera. The show can't do that now though.
Thinking about it, I almost feel like it would be better to make it a montage than do full episodes. You could do a lot of cool shots of cameras reacting and people looking ill and Freddie Lounds doing her thing and stuff.
I almost feel like that would slot perfectly into things the way The Wire's season-climax montages worked. You have the season of Ripper On The Run, it climaxes with him getting caught and then you get this cool denoument of a montage of the trial. Then just end the season with him being put in a cell and Chilton smirking at him or some shit through the bars.
posted by sparkletone at 6:47 PM on March 26, 2014
Legal drama doesn't exactly seem like the show's strong suit but that trial would be a huge lurid circus. Harris gets around it by just ... having him imprisoned already when we meet him and the catching and all that happens off camera. The show can't do that now though.
Thinking about it, I almost feel like it would be better to make it a montage than do full episodes. You could do a lot of cool shots of cameras reacting and people looking ill and Freddie Lounds doing her thing and stuff.
I almost feel like that would slot perfectly into things the way The Wire's season-climax montages worked. You have the season of Ripper On The Run, it climaxes with him getting caught and then you get this cool denoument of a montage of the trial. Then just end the season with him being put in a cell and Chilton smirking at him or some shit through the bars.
posted by sparkletone at 6:47 PM on March 26, 2014
There might not be a HanniTrial. He could confess and cut a deal for drawing maps to all the bodies. Or he could be judged incompetent to stand trial. That would be unlikely in Real Life, but in addition to being fiction on the show you've got a whole Federal agency that's been played like fiddles and the last thing they want is for their incompetence to be documented for the media in a courtroom. Chilton would probably sign the declaration if he was promised exclusive access for the study of this unique monster.
posted by localroger at 7:00 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by localroger at 7:00 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
We need a table showing who ate whom without knowing. Looks like Jack would win by several dishes, the way they have shown him as a regular dinner guest for the doctor.
posted by Iosephus at 8:00 PM on March 26, 2014
posted by Iosephus at 8:00 PM on March 26, 2014
I used to be convinced Jack was unkillable due to his role in Red Dragon and SOtL but I'm ...no longer sure.
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on March 26, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on March 26, 2014
also they may have to do more changes cause "Jack sends someone to Hanibal Lecter to solve a case" is getting like, increasingly obviously a bad idea before we even get to the actual canon. Like I can't imagine the current Jack telling Clarice/Schmarlice to actually go talk to the guy.
Like that has to be another person or situation or something.
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like that has to be another person or situation or something.
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
We need a table showing who ate whom without knowing. Looks like Jack would win by several dishes, the way they have shown him as a regular dinner guest for the doctor.
After Hannibal gets found out, Jimmy should insist that Jack provide a stool sample.
posted by homunculus at 8:49 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
After Hannibal gets found out, Jimmy should insist that Jack provide a stool sample.
posted by homunculus at 8:49 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, can we a very special episode where we meet Jimmy Price's twin brother? If Scott Thompson's was willing to do one of his KITH characters, that'd be extra-sweet.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:56 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by echolalia67 at 8:56 PM on March 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Like I can't imagine the current Jack telling Clarice/Schmarlice to actually go talk to the guy.
I can't imagine him telling Will to speak with Hannibal in Season 4, nor Schmarlice after what happened with Miriam Lass. But when he gets desperate...
posted by crossoverman at 10:03 PM on March 26, 2014
I can't imagine him telling Will to speak with Hannibal in Season 4, nor Schmarlice after what happened with Miriam Lass. But when he gets desperate...
posted by crossoverman at 10:03 PM on March 26, 2014
Latest episode of A Matter of Taste has Cleolinda guesting on it. I'm only a third or so of the way through it but one of the hosts just referred to the choice of music in the show (in reference to the bit where Hannibal is making osso bucco out of human leg) as "gourmet Looney Tunes." I am laughing pretty hard, and kind of assume the rest of the episode will be just as entertaining.
posted by sparkletone at 10:28 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 10:28 PM on March 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
The podcast is also reminding me of a few extra sinewy bits of justification for going to Hannibal's without leaving a note: In 2x02, she has one of those ambiguous non-permission permission Jack conversations where he kind of says he doesn't want to know what she's doing but do it anyway, right?[1] That conversation was just about consulting Will... But if you take that tacit permission and run with it...
I'm not saying it completely justifies how out of character some of that felt, but I feel better about it than I did before being reminded of this.
Also, to get mildly spoilery, it seems reasonable that given what happens with her this coming episode that Will's insistence regarding Hannibal + what happens to Beverly... That goes a long way to explaining why Jack's suspicions get so amped up this week even without a note saying EXACTLY where she went and why.
[1] - AND THAT ENDED SO WELL WITH MIRIAM.
posted by sparkletone at 11:11 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying it completely justifies how out of character some of that felt, but I feel better about it than I did before being reminded of this.
Also, to get mildly spoilery, it seems reasonable that given what happens with her this coming episode that Will's insistence regarding Hannibal + what happens to Beverly... That goes a long way to explaining why Jack's suspicions get so amped up this week even without a note saying EXACTLY where she went and why.
[1] - AND THAT ENDED SO WELL WITH MIRIAM.
posted by sparkletone at 11:11 PM on March 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
From the podcast " this episode ...I had to go see The Lego Movie to recover, just me alone in a theatre at noon on a Saturday sobbing."
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 AM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 AM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also from the podcast "THIS MURDER DUNGEON IS NOT UP TO CODE."
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 AM on March 27, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 AM on March 27, 2014
Thinking on, I should probably provide an example of an actual "fridging".
I read this story as a child, so I can't remember the title or author. It was in one of the Alfred Hitchcock mystery anthologies.
Basically there's a lawyer who is defending a serial killer who I seem to remember is called The Weasel. He gets The Weasel exonerated.
The father/husband of two of The Weasel's victims confronts the lawyer and lets him know he gave The Weasel the lawyer's home address. Of course, the lawyer also has a wife and daughter.
The lawyer phones home. The phone keeps ringing. Nobody picks up.
This story struck me as morally perverse even as a child (I could have been as young as 11 when I read it). It's clear that we are meant to think that justice has been done.
That the lawyer's wife and daughter might have had an individual right to live is apparently not part of the author's mindset. In fact, the lawyer's wife and daughter don't appear directly at all. We know how they must have been killed because The Weasel's methods have been described in graphic detail. Literally the only purpose of these two characters' existence was to be killed with extreme cruelty to satisfy the emotional needs of a male character, with whom the audience is expected to identify.
I still look back on that story today and ask myself, "What was WRONG with that author? What was wrong with the editors, that they thought this story was even publishable?"
That is an example of a fridging. Killing off Beverly doesn't even remotely qualify for this.
posted by tel3path at 11:52 AM on March 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
I read this story as a child, so I can't remember the title or author. It was in one of the Alfred Hitchcock mystery anthologies.
Basically there's a lawyer who is defending a serial killer who I seem to remember is called The Weasel. He gets The Weasel exonerated.
The father/husband of two of The Weasel's victims confronts the lawyer and lets him know he gave The Weasel the lawyer's home address. Of course, the lawyer also has a wife and daughter.
The lawyer phones home. The phone keeps ringing. Nobody picks up.
This story struck me as morally perverse even as a child (I could have been as young as 11 when I read it). It's clear that we are meant to think that justice has been done.
That the lawyer's wife and daughter might have had an individual right to live is apparently not part of the author's mindset. In fact, the lawyer's wife and daughter don't appear directly at all. We know how they must have been killed because The Weasel's methods have been described in graphic detail. Literally the only purpose of these two characters' existence was to be killed with extreme cruelty to satisfy the emotional needs of a male character, with whom the audience is expected to identify.
I still look back on that story today and ask myself, "What was WRONG with that author? What was wrong with the editors, that they thought this story was even publishable?"
That is an example of a fridging. Killing off Beverly doesn't even remotely qualify for this.
posted by tel3path at 11:52 AM on March 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
Okay, on the season one rewatch with someone who has never seen any Thomas Harris stuff, we're up to the Miram Lass episode and I noticed she skips her class to go talk to Lecter.
The class? Good Faith Warrent Exemptions.
OH SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 2:21 PM on March 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
The class? Good Faith Warrent Exemptions.
OH SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 2:21 PM on March 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
Whelk I'm getting the impression... correct me if I'm wrong... that you enjoy this show? You're being pretty subtle but I think I'm reading you correctly.
posted by Justinian at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 3:23 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Whelk, that's a beautiful observation. As always, this show is one step ahead of us.
Not that *I* enjoy this sort of thing, obviously.
posted by tel3path at 3:34 PM on March 27, 2014
Not that *I* enjoy this sort of thing, obviously.
posted by tel3path at 3:34 PM on March 27, 2014
I also noticed how, in episode five which is basically the re-start of the show being about Hammibal and Will and not Will Empathing At the Killer of The Week, every scene with Hannibal in his office has That Fucking Stag Statue in the background.
Credit to my newbie viewer who figured is out and went "so, they're total opposites? Someone who can't help but emphasize with everyone and someone who has to perform a personality cause he doesn't have one outside of fucking with people?"
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on March 27, 2014
Credit to my newbie viewer who figured is out and went "so, they're total opposites? Someone who can't help but emphasize with everyone and someone who has to perform a personality cause he doesn't have one outside of fucking with people?"
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on March 27, 2014
Although "that stag looks like something from an Ed Hardy shirt" kinda shocked me.
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm considering finding people who haven't seen the show to have a good excuse for watching it all again.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:16 PM on March 27, 2014
posted by rmd1023 at 4:16 PM on March 27, 2014
(it's also interesting how much of episodes 2-4 are just place setting and wheel spinning, setting things up, wading into the world. You could kinda start on episode 5 and just run from there. Then again the CRAZY FAST PACE of the current season probobly wouldn't make sense unless we swanned about in season one getting all "character-based" and "detailed".)
posted by The Whelk at 4:49 PM on March 27, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 4:49 PM on March 27, 2014
apparently the finale of season two is filming RIGHT NOW.
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on March 27, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on March 27, 2014
I cannot get past the idea that Alana, being the one person who's spent the most time with Hannibal, would not have perceived and dismissed some weird stuff about him. I really do believe that, of all people, she ought to know.
Waaay back when, I used to work in transitional housing for adults with chronic mental illness. The place I worked at and the countless other ones that exist hire people who are usually somewhere in a Masters or PhD program's "admission-matriculation-graduation-clinical hours" grind. It's a pretty, um ... quirky set of people.
In that setting, judging your co=workers/peers really becomes about which ones do the clients feel comfortable with versus which ones freak them out and set them off. It's no longer about who has the nicest personality; it's about who is competent and as importantly, who you trust to have your back.
Believe me I worked with some total assholes who were AH-mazing with clients, slightly oddball characters who were really dedicated to the work, some people who seemed like they really, really belonged on the other side of the desk (I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU, CHILTON) and some people with big hearts who just wanted make everything all better. If you're about to go on what looks like a crazy shift, you want the two former types on the shift with you; the later two will either be whipping the clients into a homicidal frenzy or will be in the corner crying because one of the clients said "I hate you" to them.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the psych field is full of all sorts of quirky people and someone who works there is going to have "creeper" radar that works very differently than the average person. Hannibal, as a intelligent, very observant man with an uncanny ability to mimic appropriate human behavior, is not going to be setting off Alana's alarm what with all of the Chiltons, Masons, Franklins, Georginas, Gideons and Grahams running amok.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:41 PM on March 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
Waaaaitasec. How are they going to do "Red Dragon" in the modern day when we haven't had celluloid home movies for a few decades? How's he learning about the families?
posted by rmd1023 at 6:43 PM on March 27, 2014
posted by rmd1023 at 6:43 PM on March 27, 2014
There are services which professionally edit your amateur home videos into something more presentable for the relatives and talent scouts.
posted by localroger at 6:49 PM on March 27, 2014
posted by localroger at 6:49 PM on March 27, 2014
THIS IS DICUSSED IN THE PODCAST
Basically Dolarhyde is going to have to change quite a bit to fit into the show but still read as the Tooth Fairy so expect a different version of him for the show while his details and side stuff get given to other characters like they did with Buffalo Bill so far.
I'm in the camp that you can change Dolarhyde way, way more than you think, it's still gonna read as him* if you have the biting, the glass eyes, the lunar cycle, the crazy interior life, the fingerprints, the mirrors, the blind woman, the Blake connection,attacks whole families, gunshot, big lawns, acid fan, the shyness ..etc that's the things that make it Dolarahyde. Changing how he finds his victims is largely academic.
*Or HER. YOu can remove the sexual assault element from the story pretty cleanly And I like the idea if a female, series long big bad. Cleolinda is like "but his damage, with his grandmother, is all tied to masculinity" but I think YIU can tweak that to be about anythingn related.
posted by The Whelk at 6:51 PM on March 27, 2014
Basically Dolarhyde is going to have to change quite a bit to fit into the show but still read as the Tooth Fairy so expect a different version of him for the show while his details and side stuff get given to other characters like they did with Buffalo Bill so far.
I'm in the camp that you can change Dolarhyde way, way more than you think, it's still gonna read as him* if you have the biting, the glass eyes, the lunar cycle, the crazy interior life, the fingerprints, the mirrors, the blind woman, the Blake connection,attacks whole families, gunshot, big lawns, acid fan, the shyness ..etc that's the things that make it Dolarahyde. Changing how he finds his victims is largely academic.
*Or HER. YOu can remove the sexual assault element from the story pretty cleanly And I like the idea if a female, series long big bad. Cleolinda is like "but his damage, with his grandmother, is all tied to masculinity" but I think YIU can tweak that to be about anythingn related.
posted by The Whelk at 6:51 PM on March 27, 2014
Hannibal, as a intelligent, very observant man with an uncanny ability to mimic appropriate human behavior, is not going to be setting off Alana's alarm what with all of the Chiltons, Masons, Franklins, Georginas, Gideons and Grahams running amok.
I don't think that Hannibal is all that able to mimic appropriate human behavior. He doesn't even seem to try that hard to do so -- if he were making a real effort, he probably wouldn't go around in power suits and spend all his time being inhumanely meticulous. He doesn't want to seem human, he wants to seem better than human.*
I think that Hannibal walks around like he's in charge. Other people who flatter themselves that they're in charge, too (at least in charge of themselves, but maybe of even more than that), like Alana, Jack, Bella, and Bedelia, see a flatteringly controlled and commanding reflection of themselves in him, so he doesn't unsettle them or scare them and maybe they even get a little egotistical thrill around him. That is, until Hannibal breaks their confidence by proving to them that *he's* the one who's really in charge of everything, and they're just at his mercy. Perversely, I think Hannibal proves that to them by "saving" them (he did that to Bedelia and Bella, anyway, and I think he's probably going to soon prove to Alana that she's at his mercy, too).
His methods kind of remind me of old fashioned dog training, thinking about it (especially since there was so much discussion in the thread for a while there about the dogs, my favorite characters who are never on screen), because Hannibal likes to break people by breaking their confidence, especially their confidence that they're able to protect themselves -- he convinces them that without his help they'll be helpless, even though he's mostly just making them protect themselves against him.** How Bedelia acted around Hannibal reminded me of a dog scared into obedience like that -- to me, she seemed terrified, and knew what she should even be terrified of, but she also seemed to feel a sort of gratitude and love and liked him treating her as his special pet, I think.
Anyway, Hannibal doesn't have to prove to Will or some of the others that they're at his mercy and they can't control anything much or protect themselves, though, because they sense it on their own.
I think that's where Beverly maybe comes in -- she was very sensible and thoughtful and insightful, but as a scientist, she also was just meant to gather and interpret evidence, not create it or control the results. I think that Beverly's scientifically-minded efforts to be objective kept her from being too cocky or arrogant, which kept her from buying into the Boss image that Hannibal likes to reflect back at people to keep them flattered and complacent, so he creeped her out. But on the other hand, not buying into that image and needing to endlessly gather data and refusing to leap to conclusions -- all hallmarks of being a good scientist, and why I loved Beverly -- were also what got her into that basement in the first place.
*This is likely old hat to you guys? I'm sorry if it is. I'm not as up on this show as most of you probably are, because I watch it and like it, but my main Serial Killer/Movie Idol Prequel TV Show is "Bates Motel." Which is *wonderful.* This season is *wonderful.* But I think it's much more...feminine (?) in its preoccupations then "Hannibal," and has about 1/8th the gore, sort of a different beast.
**The place where I've seen a lot of that kind of dog training in real life is around pit bull fighting (which I think is a horrifying practice, don't worry). If Hannibal has the same sort of mentality toward the people in his life as those assholes have toward their dogs, I wonder if feeding people to each other is his version of those dog fights?
posted by rue72 at 6:58 PM on March 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
I don't think that Hannibal is all that able to mimic appropriate human behavior. He doesn't even seem to try that hard to do so -- if he were making a real effort, he probably wouldn't go around in power suits and spend all his time being inhumanely meticulous. He doesn't want to seem human, he wants to seem better than human.*
I think that Hannibal walks around like he's in charge. Other people who flatter themselves that they're in charge, too (at least in charge of themselves, but maybe of even more than that), like Alana, Jack, Bella, and Bedelia, see a flatteringly controlled and commanding reflection of themselves in him, so he doesn't unsettle them or scare them and maybe they even get a little egotistical thrill around him. That is, until Hannibal breaks their confidence by proving to them that *he's* the one who's really in charge of everything, and they're just at his mercy. Perversely, I think Hannibal proves that to them by "saving" them (he did that to Bedelia and Bella, anyway, and I think he's probably going to soon prove to Alana that she's at his mercy, too).
His methods kind of remind me of old fashioned dog training, thinking about it (especially since there was so much discussion in the thread for a while there about the dogs, my favorite characters who are never on screen), because Hannibal likes to break people by breaking their confidence, especially their confidence that they're able to protect themselves -- he convinces them that without his help they'll be helpless, even though he's mostly just making them protect themselves against him.** How Bedelia acted around Hannibal reminded me of a dog scared into obedience like that -- to me, she seemed terrified, and knew what she should even be terrified of, but she also seemed to feel a sort of gratitude and love and liked him treating her as his special pet, I think.
Anyway, Hannibal doesn't have to prove to Will or some of the others that they're at his mercy and they can't control anything much or protect themselves, though, because they sense it on their own.
I think that's where Beverly maybe comes in -- she was very sensible and thoughtful and insightful, but as a scientist, she also was just meant to gather and interpret evidence, not create it or control the results. I think that Beverly's scientifically-minded efforts to be objective kept her from being too cocky or arrogant, which kept her from buying into the Boss image that Hannibal likes to reflect back at people to keep them flattered and complacent, so he creeped her out. But on the other hand, not buying into that image and needing to endlessly gather data and refusing to leap to conclusions -- all hallmarks of being a good scientist, and why I loved Beverly -- were also what got her into that basement in the first place.
*This is likely old hat to you guys? I'm sorry if it is. I'm not as up on this show as most of you probably are, because I watch it and like it, but my main Serial Killer/Movie Idol Prequel TV Show is "Bates Motel." Which is *wonderful.* This season is *wonderful.* But I think it's much more...feminine (?) in its preoccupations then "Hannibal," and has about 1/8th the gore, sort of a different beast.
**The place where I've seen a lot of that kind of dog training in real life is around pit bull fighting (which I think is a horrifying practice, don't worry). If Hannibal has the same sort of mentality toward the people in his life as those assholes have toward their dogs, I wonder if feeding people to each other is his version of those dog fights?
posted by rue72 at 6:58 PM on March 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
Cleolinda is like "but his damage, with his grandmother, is all tied to masculinity"
Dolarhyde's damage is far more related to his cleft palate which his cruel grandmother wouldn't treat so he was a deformed freak nicknamed "cuntface" until he entered the army and they fixed it for him.
posted by localroger at 7:15 PM on March 27, 2014
Dolarhyde's damage is far more related to his cleft palate which his cruel grandmother wouldn't treat so he was a deformed freak nicknamed "cuntface" until he entered the army and they fixed it for him.
posted by localroger at 7:15 PM on March 27, 2014
Someone who isn't cracked out on cold medicine-- did Fuller and Co. explicitly say the fight scene is from the last episode? Because I'm wondering if twelve weeks really is twelve episodes.
From the AV Club walkthrough with Bryan Fuller for episode one:
"This is what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a huge clash between these two guys, and how we get there is going to be part of the fun. We’re breaking the finale right now, and it’s interesting to look back and say, “Okay, this is where we started and where in the arc of this story does that fight happen? [Laughs.] How much do we have to play beforehand? How much do we have to play afterwards?” And we have such big moves in the finale that the fight is actually one of the smaller events in the finale."
The fight is definitely from the season finale.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:17 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
From the AV Club walkthrough with Bryan Fuller for episode one:
"This is what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a huge clash between these two guys, and how we get there is going to be part of the fun. We’re breaking the finale right now, and it’s interesting to look back and say, “Okay, this is where we started and where in the arc of this story does that fight happen? [Laughs.] How much do we have to play beforehand? How much do we have to play afterwards?” And we have such big moves in the finale that the fight is actually one of the smaller events in the finale."
The fight is definitely from the season finale.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:17 PM on March 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think that Hannibal is all that able to mimic appropriate human behavior. He doesn't even seem to try that hard to do so -- if he were making a real effort, he probably wouldn't go around in power suits and spend all his time being inhumanely meticulous. He doesn't want to seem human, he wants to seem better than human.
We the audience are privileged to see long shots of Hannibal through a wide angle lens: we know who he is by virtue of the "big picture". The characters of the show interact with him much more fitfully and it would be very difficult for them to piece together the bigger picture of him that is so easy for us to see. They see a mild mannered doctor who hails from Europe; a man who has a warm but somewhat reserved personality, a man who is very passionate about "the finer things" and who fancies himself a bit of a clothes horse. Up close, the later data points look more like mild vanity and genteel eccentricity than signs of being a sociopath.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:35 PM on March 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
We the audience are privileged to see long shots of Hannibal through a wide angle lens: we know who he is by virtue of the "big picture". The characters of the show interact with him much more fitfully and it would be very difficult for them to piece together the bigger picture of him that is so easy for us to see. They see a mild mannered doctor who hails from Europe; a man who has a warm but somewhat reserved personality, a man who is very passionate about "the finer things" and who fancies himself a bit of a clothes horse. Up close, the later data points look more like mild vanity and genteel eccentricity than signs of being a sociopath.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:35 PM on March 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
One of my favorite things about the show is how seductive Hannibal the character is. We get a demonstration of how he got the benefit of the doubt for so long. He kills people and we want to dress like him. He eats them and we want to know the recipes. Much of the music I have listened today has been classical music and opera pieces played as one of his signatures on the show.
The first season I think we only saw him kill two people - and one was another psychopathic killer - and carve up one more. We were able to almost forget that he was such a monster. And now we're almost shocked to see his strength, his speed, his brutality. And he starts to kill our people.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:46 PM on March 27, 2014 [10 favorites]
The first season I think we only saw him kill two people - and one was another psychopathic killer - and carve up one more. We were able to almost forget that he was such a monster. And now we're almost shocked to see his strength, his speed, his brutality. And he starts to kill our people.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:46 PM on March 27, 2014 [10 favorites]
The kind of ..fashionable, upoer class design nerd aspects of the show are my favorite cause it is like Hannibal is reading NYLON abd architectural digest and has a vision jyst about to show up in Bloomingdale's and the like. Even his super patterned clothes are kinda anticipating thestuff happening now ...not to mmention how hip organ meat is right now.
The fact that show Lecter seems legit fasion foward and kinda insider-badeball nerdy in expression woukd lead me to think anyone not an all-seeing viewer would jyst assume he's an art nerd eccentric who cooks crazy good.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on March 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
The fact that show Lecter seems legit fasion foward and kinda insider-badeball nerdy in expression woukd lead me to think anyone not an all-seeing viewer would jyst assume he's an art nerd eccentric who cooks crazy good.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on March 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Like in the awful red dragon movie he's having dinner in a fussy baroque mansion and who cares cause that's cheap visual language for "rich and fancy", but putting Lecter in actual fashionable, desirable settings makes him read to the audience better: This is soneone You, aspirational educated fancy seeming person, this is someone you totally want to be your friend.
That seems a bit awesome.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on March 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
That seems a bit awesome.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on March 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
The first season I think we only saw him kill two people
No, we see quite a few more, even if they're only implied. He throws a dinner party at the lady from the opera's insistence and it's made very clear that he offs quite a few people to stock up on meat. There's even a scene with Team Sassy Science looking at a bunch of bodies and making a "unless he's making sausage (cut to shot of Hannibal making sausage)" joke to underline it.
posted by sparkletone at 9:00 PM on March 27, 2014
No, we see quite a few more, even if they're only implied. He throws a dinner party at the lady from the opera's insistence and it's made very clear that he offs quite a few people to stock up on meat. There's even a scene with Team Sassy Science looking at a bunch of bodies and making a "unless he's making sausage (cut to shot of Hannibal making sausage)" joke to underline it.
posted by sparkletone at 9:00 PM on March 27, 2014
*Or HER. YOu can remove the sexual assault element from the story pretty cleanly And I like the idea if a female, series long big bad. Cleolinda is like "but his damage, with his grandmother, is all tied to masculinity" but I think YIU can tweak that to be about anythingn related.
I'm not sure you can get the fixation on the Great Red Dragon in the Blake painting without some kind of fetishization of hyper-masculinity. I mean, in the original formulation Dolarhyde's murders are a necessity allowing him to carry out rapes with some associated fantasy elements, not an end on their own. Tough to map that onto a female character directly, although my God would it be twisted if you did. Otherwise, there needs to be some kind of narratively graspable motive for the murders. If they could pull it off well, it would be amazing.
Annabelle Lecter would have been an easier gender-swap, but that ship has sailed.
posted by figurant at 9:25 PM on March 27, 2014
I'm not sure you can get the fixation on the Great Red Dragon in the Blake painting without some kind of fetishization of hyper-masculinity. I mean, in the original formulation Dolarhyde's murders are a necessity allowing him to carry out rapes with some associated fantasy elements, not an end on their own. Tough to map that onto a female character directly, although my God would it be twisted if you did. Otherwise, there needs to be some kind of narratively graspable motive for the murders. If they could pull it off well, it would be amazing.
Annabelle Lecter would have been an easier gender-swap, but that ship has sailed.
posted by figurant at 9:25 PM on March 27, 2014
Annabelle Lecter would have been an easier gender-swap, but that ship has sailed.
It's a bit of a meta-concern but there's no way this show gets made at all without the name-recognition that comes with Hannibal at the very least. But even in-universe I don't think this switch is easier than making a woman who reads as Dolarhyde.
posted by sparkletone at 10:14 PM on March 27, 2014
It's a bit of a meta-concern but there's no way this show gets made at all without the name-recognition that comes with Hannibal at the very least. But even in-universe I don't think this switch is easier than making a woman who reads as Dolarhyde.
posted by sparkletone at 10:14 PM on March 27, 2014
They see a mild mannered doctor who hails from Europe; a man who has a warm but somewhat reserved personality, a man who is very passionate about "the finer things" and who fancies himself a bit of a clothes horse. Up close, the later data points look more like mild vanity and genteel eccentricity than signs of being a sociopath.
One of my favorite things about the show is how seductive Hannibal the character is.
I can see what you're saying but...maybe it's just idiosyncratic, but that's not how I see Hannibal at all. He seems very intimidating to me, and purposefully so.
He looks like he's got about thirty pounds of muscle on anyone else in the show, and he's taller and more broad-shouldered than any of the others save (soft, out of shape, older) Jack. (As soon as I saw Will's new guy had that limp, I thought "uh-oh.") Hannibal could throw any one of them across the room as easily as spit, and you can tell just from looking at him. He looks like he's made of concrete, even his face is white and chiseled (which I assume is also an aesthetic/makeup/hair choice), he doesn't laugh or smile much, his posture and how he moves is so unyielding. To me, he looks like he could just smash a person to bits if he felt like it, and nothing about how he moves or relates physically to other people reassures that he won't feel like it.
It just makes the feeling of "Hannibal's got all the power!" stronger to me that, on top of being physically intimidating, he chooses to surround himself with only the most expensive, most formal, most "elite" stuff -- fancy suits, fancy music, fancy house. I interpret that as his way of communicating that he's got all of "civilization" on his side, too. As though, not only can he smash a person to bits, but he's *meant* to -- he's the king, he's the one who is inheriting the rights to (the best of) everything, and that includes rights to do what he wants to you, because you're just another thing that he owns. He doesn't just have the physical power, he's got to cultural/social/historical* power, too.
And then on *top* of that, he's also got the (legal! socially approved!) power to control other people's bodies. He's got a literal (medical) license for it. In that same vein, I think, is how he nearly always controls the food, which at least some of the characters noticed (the vegetarians and Abigail, anyway, maybe Bedelia and Will).
It makes sense that nobody would be onto Hannibal in the sense of realizing that he's secretly a serial killer who eats people, because *nobody* is secretly a serial killer who eats people, it would be nuts for anyone to even have that as a possibility in his head. At the same time, though, I don't think Hannibal is aiming for "mild mannered" in terms of his image, I think he's aiming to seem powerful and in control, and he's surrounded by The Best because that's where he (thinks he) *belongs,* because he's also The Best. And to me, he pulls that image off in spades, and it's pretty intimidating.
I think that a lot of the characters (definitely Jack and Alana, but I don't think Will) who are drawn to Hannibal recognize that he only likes The Best Things near him or on him or in him, and that's why they're flattered by his attention, it makes them feel like one of Hannibal's chosen Best Things. To me, that just ends up being dangerous complacency, though -- and not even "dangerous" just/primarily/even because Hannibal is a killer, but because they've got to realize that regardless, one day Hannibal won't think they're Best Things anymore, just things (that have gotten broken or boring), and how can even the best case scenario not end up with them hurt and Hannibal gone? You don't have to jump to the conclusion that a person will literally consume you to be wary of someone like that. tel3path articulated the kind of fear I'm talking about better than maybe I can:
That guy who killed his last wife and fed her to me, and who will kill me and feed me to his next wife, and nobody will miss me, and everyone will think it's the food of the Gods that they're eating. The guy with whom I can do everything right, but he makes all my rights turn to wrongs.That guy is the Boogeyman.
Personally, I'm watching to see everyone turn against Hannibal, chase him down, lock him down, and [insert violent fantasy here].
*Plus, dude is loaded, but so are all the characters I guess, so I don't think that in particular means anything within the context of the show.
posted by rue72 at 10:20 PM on March 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
One of my favorite things about the show is how seductive Hannibal the character is.
I can see what you're saying but...maybe it's just idiosyncratic, but that's not how I see Hannibal at all. He seems very intimidating to me, and purposefully so.
He looks like he's got about thirty pounds of muscle on anyone else in the show, and he's taller and more broad-shouldered than any of the others save (soft, out of shape, older) Jack. (As soon as I saw Will's new guy had that limp, I thought "uh-oh.") Hannibal could throw any one of them across the room as easily as spit, and you can tell just from looking at him. He looks like he's made of concrete, even his face is white and chiseled (which I assume is also an aesthetic/makeup/hair choice), he doesn't laugh or smile much, his posture and how he moves is so unyielding. To me, he looks like he could just smash a person to bits if he felt like it, and nothing about how he moves or relates physically to other people reassures that he won't feel like it.
It just makes the feeling of "Hannibal's got all the power!" stronger to me that, on top of being physically intimidating, he chooses to surround himself with only the most expensive, most formal, most "elite" stuff -- fancy suits, fancy music, fancy house. I interpret that as his way of communicating that he's got all of "civilization" on his side, too. As though, not only can he smash a person to bits, but he's *meant* to -- he's the king, he's the one who is inheriting the rights to (the best of) everything, and that includes rights to do what he wants to you, because you're just another thing that he owns. He doesn't just have the physical power, he's got to cultural/social/historical* power, too.
And then on *top* of that, he's also got the (legal! socially approved!) power to control other people's bodies. He's got a literal (medical) license for it. In that same vein, I think, is how he nearly always controls the food, which at least some of the characters noticed (the vegetarians and Abigail, anyway, maybe Bedelia and Will).
It makes sense that nobody would be onto Hannibal in the sense of realizing that he's secretly a serial killer who eats people, because *nobody* is secretly a serial killer who eats people, it would be nuts for anyone to even have that as a possibility in his head. At the same time, though, I don't think Hannibal is aiming for "mild mannered" in terms of his image, I think he's aiming to seem powerful and in control, and he's surrounded by The Best because that's where he (thinks he) *belongs,* because he's also The Best. And to me, he pulls that image off in spades, and it's pretty intimidating.
I think that a lot of the characters (definitely Jack and Alana, but I don't think Will) who are drawn to Hannibal recognize that he only likes The Best Things near him or on him or in him, and that's why they're flattered by his attention, it makes them feel like one of Hannibal's chosen Best Things. To me, that just ends up being dangerous complacency, though -- and not even "dangerous" just/primarily/even because Hannibal is a killer, but because they've got to realize that regardless, one day Hannibal won't think they're Best Things anymore, just things (that have gotten broken or boring), and how can even the best case scenario not end up with them hurt and Hannibal gone? You don't have to jump to the conclusion that a person will literally consume you to be wary of someone like that. tel3path articulated the kind of fear I'm talking about better than maybe I can:
That guy who killed his last wife and fed her to me, and who will kill me and feed me to his next wife, and nobody will miss me, and everyone will think it's the food of the Gods that they're eating. The guy with whom I can do everything right, but he makes all my rights turn to wrongs.That guy is the Boogeyman.
Personally, I'm watching to see everyone turn against Hannibal, chase him down, lock him down, and [insert violent fantasy here].
*Plus, dude is loaded, but so are all the characters I guess, so I don't think that in particular means anything within the context of the show.
posted by rue72 at 10:20 PM on March 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
What I mean when I say people should be seeing something "off" about him:
"he's having a mild seizure"
"That doesn't seem to bother you very much"
"I said it was mild"
Gideon has only one interaction with Hannibal and he perceives that something is off about this. Now I remember one fan remarked that Hannibal is a doctor so of course he isn't gonna be bothered by seizures. This is fair comment except that Gideon was also a doctor. I doubt that he's expecting Hannibal to get emotionally upset, so much as he perceives that there's something not right about Hannibal's response to it, even if *what's* not right is difficult to put into words.
It's nothing you can't explain away, though. However, if you find yourself repeatedly having to explain away things about someone... You stop wanting to. I am not suggesting anyone should be assuming Hannibal's a killer, but I do wonder why nobody ever gives him the side- eye like they give to Will. I mean people are basically splitting Hannibal and Will black and white here, and it's Bev, the character who is committed to the question "What's really going on?" that is the first to get the creeps from Hannibal and the first to seriously consider that Will's side of the argument might actually be worth considering.
And Hannibal WAS always the ONE other person who COULD HAVE done it, and he was also the one other person capable of shoving an ear down someone's throat. This is the thing, you know. Every time I think that the evidence and the impressions made can only incriminate Will, we get (just one or two) outsiders who *aren't* automatically unsuspecting Hannibal-worshippers. (Autocorrect put in "worship pets" lol)
And there's a reason why in Hassun it was revealed that they know Will got a brain scan, which as I've said raises questions about who referred him and about the quality of Hannibal's treatment - and all ANYBODY thinks if they think anything, is that it's even more proof of Will's guilt. Nobody even suspects that BRILLIANT Hannibal might actually be a bit rubbish. All he has to say is "oh we'll psychiatry is not an exact science" and that's the end of the matter. And we have seen that Alana is in fact capable of ripping Hannibal a new one when she thinks it's merited, yet, on the matter of why the fuck Will never got any meaningful treatment for what must have been evident psychotic symptoms... No questions from Alana, none, not a sausage. And in the matter of "so hey what about this brain scan" - no questions from Alana, none, not a sausage.
I have been saying this repeatedly over the last few days but I think it's something to consider - why wouldn't he be using drugs or hypnosis on Alana, since he has a history of doing so?
Here's a scene I think could turn out to be not what it appeared, if I'm right: Alana goes to Hannibal's house to take Abigail back to the hospital and she chews him out good and proper. He makes this gesture to her to come into the dining room and she calms down and becomes docile and compliant fairly immediately. I mean I get how Mommy and Daddy don't want to fight in front of the patient but her sudden switch to calmness and docility always seemed striking to me. When I consider that the docility could have something unnatural about it, the scene makes more sense.
But at this point Jack has been in the company of two people who think Hannibal is not actually the bee's knees. Bedelia used insinuation, which takes time to work if it works at all, Bella's complaint is "he wouldn't let me kill myself" which is not exactly an argument Jack's likely to find persuasive, but still... Hmmm... Just something I can't quite ignore about that, and now Bev is cold cuts... Could it be? Okay, nah until, presumably, episode 13 whereupon the festivities shall commence.
posted by tel3path at 1:12 AM on March 28, 2014
"he's having a mild seizure"
"That doesn't seem to bother you very much"
"I said it was mild"
Gideon has only one interaction with Hannibal and he perceives that something is off about this. Now I remember one fan remarked that Hannibal is a doctor so of course he isn't gonna be bothered by seizures. This is fair comment except that Gideon was also a doctor. I doubt that he's expecting Hannibal to get emotionally upset, so much as he perceives that there's something not right about Hannibal's response to it, even if *what's* not right is difficult to put into words.
It's nothing you can't explain away, though. However, if you find yourself repeatedly having to explain away things about someone... You stop wanting to. I am not suggesting anyone should be assuming Hannibal's a killer, but I do wonder why nobody ever gives him the side- eye like they give to Will. I mean people are basically splitting Hannibal and Will black and white here, and it's Bev, the character who is committed to the question "What's really going on?" that is the first to get the creeps from Hannibal and the first to seriously consider that Will's side of the argument might actually be worth considering.
And Hannibal WAS always the ONE other person who COULD HAVE done it, and he was also the one other person capable of shoving an ear down someone's throat. This is the thing, you know. Every time I think that the evidence and the impressions made can only incriminate Will, we get (just one or two) outsiders who *aren't* automatically unsuspecting Hannibal-worshippers. (Autocorrect put in "worship pets" lol)
And there's a reason why in Hassun it was revealed that they know Will got a brain scan, which as I've said raises questions about who referred him and about the quality of Hannibal's treatment - and all ANYBODY thinks if they think anything, is that it's even more proof of Will's guilt. Nobody even suspects that BRILLIANT Hannibal might actually be a bit rubbish. All he has to say is "oh we'll psychiatry is not an exact science" and that's the end of the matter. And we have seen that Alana is in fact capable of ripping Hannibal a new one when she thinks it's merited, yet, on the matter of why the fuck Will never got any meaningful treatment for what must have been evident psychotic symptoms... No questions from Alana, none, not a sausage. And in the matter of "so hey what about this brain scan" - no questions from Alana, none, not a sausage.
I have been saying this repeatedly over the last few days but I think it's something to consider - why wouldn't he be using drugs or hypnosis on Alana, since he has a history of doing so?
Here's a scene I think could turn out to be not what it appeared, if I'm right: Alana goes to Hannibal's house to take Abigail back to the hospital and she chews him out good and proper. He makes this gesture to her to come into the dining room and she calms down and becomes docile and compliant fairly immediately. I mean I get how Mommy and Daddy don't want to fight in front of the patient but her sudden switch to calmness and docility always seemed striking to me. When I consider that the docility could have something unnatural about it, the scene makes more sense.
But at this point Jack has been in the company of two people who think Hannibal is not actually the bee's knees. Bedelia used insinuation, which takes time to work if it works at all, Bella's complaint is "he wouldn't let me kill myself" which is not exactly an argument Jack's likely to find persuasive, but still... Hmmm... Just something I can't quite ignore about that, and now Bev is cold cuts... Could it be? Okay, nah until, presumably, episode 13 whereupon the festivities shall commence.
posted by tel3path at 1:12 AM on March 28, 2014
Ha ha rue72, I wonder if "Hannibal only likes the best" contrasts too starkly with "Will understands even the worst people in society".
Like if Hannibal likes and has fellow feeling with you, you must be pretty cool, right. Meanwhile, Will likes and has fellow feeling with a crazy zombie-looking woman with a comb. So if Will likes and has fellow-feeling with you, it isn't necessarily a compliment; his standards for someone being worthy of his attention are demonstrably not that high on the scale of social prestigiousness...
posted by tel3path at 1:17 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like if Hannibal likes and has fellow feeling with you, you must be pretty cool, right. Meanwhile, Will likes and has fellow feeling with a crazy zombie-looking woman with a comb. So if Will likes and has fellow-feeling with you, it isn't necessarily a compliment; his standards for someone being worthy of his attention are demonstrably not that high on the scale of social prestigiousness...
posted by tel3path at 1:17 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, right, suspecting Hannibal is a crazed serial killer who eats people would be outlandish in *our* world. But these characters *do not* live in a world where *nobody* is a crazed serial killer who eats people.
Heck. I bet you can hardly throw a rock down the street in the Hanniverse without hitting a crazed serial killer who eats people.
posted by tel3path at 1:20 AM on March 28, 2014
Heck. I bet you can hardly throw a rock down the street in the Hanniverse without hitting a crazed serial killer who eats people.
posted by tel3path at 1:20 AM on March 28, 2014
Ha ha rue72, I wonder if "Hannibal only likes the best" contrasts too starkly with "Will understands even the worst people in society".
Like if Hannibal likes and has fellow feeling with you, you must be pretty cool, right. Meanwhile, Will likes and has fellow feeling with a crazy zombie-looking woman with a comb. So if Will likes and has fellow-feeling with you, it isn't necessarily a compliment; his standards for someone being worthy of his attention are demonstrably not that high on the scale of social prestigiousness...
Yup, Will collects strays and Hannibal collects psychiatrists.
posted by rue72 at 2:35 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like if Hannibal likes and has fellow feeling with you, you must be pretty cool, right. Meanwhile, Will likes and has fellow feeling with a crazy zombie-looking woman with a comb. So if Will likes and has fellow-feeling with you, it isn't necessarily a compliment; his standards for someone being worthy of his attention are demonstrably not that high on the scale of social prestigiousness...
Yup, Will collects strays and Hannibal collects psychiatrists.
posted by rue72 at 2:35 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also... It seems to be the fans who go on and on and ON about how scruffy and impoverished Will looks. He doesn't. He isn't. Hell, I'd like to be that scruffy and impoverished.
I don't even neçessarily think we're meant to see him that way - the interior of his house is quite aesthetic, he's methodical and neat, etc etc. He just puts the aesthetics in olace and then stops thinking about them, he's not obsessed the way Hannibal is.
But next to Hannibal, I'd probably suddenly become short, fat and scruffy, a franklyn-like turnip troll. My hair would look haywire, my clothing chaotic. Remove hannibal and i would suddenly drop 50 lbs and shoot back up to my full height. It's HIM. The cause of everyone's problems.
You think hannibal reads nylon? I better start reading nylon.
posted by tel3path at 2:39 AM on March 28, 2014
I don't even neçessarily think we're meant to see him that way - the interior of his house is quite aesthetic, he's methodical and neat, etc etc. He just puts the aesthetics in olace and then stops thinking about them, he's not obsessed the way Hannibal is.
But next to Hannibal, I'd probably suddenly become short, fat and scruffy, a franklyn-like turnip troll. My hair would look haywire, my clothing chaotic. Remove hannibal and i would suddenly drop 50 lbs and shoot back up to my full height. It's HIM. The cause of everyone's problems.
You think hannibal reads nylon? I better start reading nylon.
posted by tel3path at 2:39 AM on March 28, 2014
"You don't have to jump to the conclusion that a person will literally consume you to be wary of someone like that."
Yes... And... It's hard to articulate the numinous fear that accompanies someone like that, but I'll try to add to it:
When Hannibal eats someone, he consumes what he considers to be the best parts of them, and sets up the rest to be exposed to public disgrace. At least Hobbs told himself he was "honoring every part" (which resulted in the literal fabric of Abigail's home life being pervaded with the bodies of victims, to an extent even she didn't realize, but that's another story).
It's really hard to explain how disturbing it is to see a psychopathic type person change personae. They pick up mannerisms that you could swear they got from you, but you're not around any more. They just took what they needed from you to move up to the next level, and now they're going around wearing parts of you like feathers in their cap, but you aren't part of their world any more, except perhaps as an object of ridicule. It's uncanny and disturbing to an extent that doesn't seem to be warranted by the facts of whatever the offense was.
I got a jolt looking at a Victorian memento mori picture in which one of the subjects was alive and one dead. The caption read "the girl who is standing is the one who is dead - look at the hands." And sure enough, her hands were grey. One grey, dead hand was on her living sister's shoulder.
That's the kind of experience I'm talking about. That's why I'm so outraged that Hannibal is going around wearing Will's shirts while on his way to steal yo girl. How long is it going to take Alana to look at this picture and see the one menacing detail that tells her the picture isn't showing what it appears to be showing?
posted by tel3path at 3:47 AM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes... And... It's hard to articulate the numinous fear that accompanies someone like that, but I'll try to add to it:
When Hannibal eats someone, he consumes what he considers to be the best parts of them, and sets up the rest to be exposed to public disgrace. At least Hobbs told himself he was "honoring every part" (which resulted in the literal fabric of Abigail's home life being pervaded with the bodies of victims, to an extent even she didn't realize, but that's another story).
It's really hard to explain how disturbing it is to see a psychopathic type person change personae. They pick up mannerisms that you could swear they got from you, but you're not around any more. They just took what they needed from you to move up to the next level, and now they're going around wearing parts of you like feathers in their cap, but you aren't part of their world any more, except perhaps as an object of ridicule. It's uncanny and disturbing to an extent that doesn't seem to be warranted by the facts of whatever the offense was.
I got a jolt looking at a Victorian memento mori picture in which one of the subjects was alive and one dead. The caption read "the girl who is standing is the one who is dead - look at the hands." And sure enough, her hands were grey. One grey, dead hand was on her living sister's shoulder.
That's the kind of experience I'm talking about. That's why I'm so outraged that Hannibal is going around wearing Will's shirts while on his way to steal yo girl. How long is it going to take Alana to look at this picture and see the one menacing detail that tells her the picture isn't showing what it appears to be showing?
posted by tel3path at 3:47 AM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Man, I love MeFi Hannibal threads.
I really like what tel3path and rue72 are saying about how Hannibal's "human" mask. I also think with his mannerisms, his fastidiousness, the suits, the gourmet cooking, it's all just an really interesting shade of being one teeny-tiny step over the line of Hannibal knowing/believing that he is better than human. Fuller has created an archetype of a serial killer that I am starting to call a "Murder Sue" character (which is no bad thing here).
posted by Kitteh at 4:08 AM on March 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
I really like what tel3path and rue72 are saying about how Hannibal's "human" mask. I also think with his mannerisms, his fastidiousness, the suits, the gourmet cooking, it's all just an really interesting shade of being one teeny-tiny step over the line of Hannibal knowing/believing that he is better than human. Fuller has created an archetype of a serial killer that I am starting to call a "Murder Sue" character (which is no bad thing here).
posted by Kitteh at 4:08 AM on March 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
No, we see quite a few more, even if they're only implied.
Well, yes. On the recent rewatch I tried to count how many people he had killed and reached 19.
What I meant to say was that we only actually see him, on screen, kill two people: Tobias in a fight and Franklyn just before. We later see him presenting Dr. Sutcliffe but I believe that's it (not counting organs). We know we killed many people but only see glimpses of that.
In season 2 thus far we've seen him in a brutal fight with Jack, stitching James Gray into the mural and clear evidence of him attacking Beverly. There are nine episodes left and I expect he's going to fight/kill more, including more recurring characters.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:28 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, yes. On the recent rewatch I tried to count how many people he had killed and reached 19.
What I meant to say was that we only actually see him, on screen, kill two people: Tobias in a fight and Franklyn just before. We later see him presenting Dr. Sutcliffe but I believe that's it (not counting organs). We know we killed many people but only see glimpses of that.
In season 2 thus far we've seen him in a brutal fight with Jack, stitching James Gray into the mural and clear evidence of him attacking Beverly. There are nine episodes left and I expect he's going to fight/kill more, including more recurring characters.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:28 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
about how scruffy and impoverished Will looks
This also annoys me cause Will's whole aesthetic is straight Upper middle class, Outdoor-y, L. L Bean. I mean, he can't match shirts to ties and probably shouldn't wear fishing gear in not fishing contexts but nothing about his glorious historic farmhouse and no doubt sturdy wardrobe reads as scruffy or impoverished until you put him next to Mr. Aristocrat Bleeding Edge Design Vampire.
On an unrelated note I want the wallpaper in the Crawford bedroom. Heavy patterned wallpaper hasn't been popular since the late 70s ( like heavily patterned suits) and it keeps almost coming back but not really.
posted by The Whelk at 5:32 AM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
This also annoys me cause Will's whole aesthetic is straight Upper middle class, Outdoor-y, L. L Bean. I mean, he can't match shirts to ties and probably shouldn't wear fishing gear in not fishing contexts but nothing about his glorious historic farmhouse and no doubt sturdy wardrobe reads as scruffy or impoverished until you put him next to Mr. Aristocrat Bleeding Edge Design Vampire.
On an unrelated note I want the wallpaper in the Crawford bedroom. Heavy patterned wallpaper hasn't been popular since the late 70s ( like heavily patterned suits) and it keeps almost coming back but not really.
posted by The Whelk at 5:32 AM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
( Total Newb Viewer couldn't wait for another cocktail and appetizer Hannibal session and shot gunned three episodes on thier own, BUWAHAHAHA.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:08 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 6:08 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
which resulted in the literal fabric of Abigail's home life being pervaded with the bodies of victims
AGH. Sometimes the serial killer-ness of the Hanniverse presents itself as so normal to me that even when someone on the show freaks out, I don't freak out until long after the fact. AGGGH murder hair pillows.
It's like murder fridge logic except that it all. makes. horrible. sense.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2014
AGH. Sometimes the serial killer-ness of the Hanniverse presents itself as so normal to me that even when someone on the show freaks out, I don't freak out until long after the fact. AGGGH murder hair pillows.
It's like murder fridge logic except that it all. makes. horrible. sense.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2014
More fridge horror ...the MURDER DUNGEON is right. Over. The. Dining. Room.
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Someone is selling beer made with brains. Goat, for now, but we know what's next.
posted by jeather at 7:38 AM on March 28, 2014
posted by jeather at 7:38 AM on March 28, 2014
That is disgusting and nobody should be consuming mammalian brains if they know what's good for them.
posted by tel3path at 8:03 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 8:03 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
What, alcohol doesn't kill prions?
posted by localroger at 8:14 AM on March 28, 2014
posted by localroger at 8:14 AM on March 28, 2014
It is disgusting, but we already know Hannibal serves murder alcohol to people who obviously don't know what's good for them, and there were all these questions about how he makes it.
posted by jeather at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2014
posted by jeather at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2014
You can deactivate prions in an autoclave at 270F at 21 psi for 90 minutes.
I get it, and all, but I still have questions about *why* he makes it. Yuk.
posted by tel3path at 8:37 AM on March 28, 2014
I get it, and all, but I still have questions about *why* he makes it. Yuk.
posted by tel3path at 8:37 AM on March 28, 2014
I just saw the clip again from the end of the episode where Bev is in the basement (sub-basement?) and Hannibal shows up behind her. After we see the lighting shift and see Hannibal in the back, they do a *total* hero-shot looking up at Bev and her looking serious and strong. This is another reason it doesn't read as fridging to me - this isn't an ambush or killing a weak dependent character, it's a solid confrontation. If her expression was more "OH NOEZ I AM TRAPPED WITH TEH BAD MAN HAAAAALP", it might feel like a weakening of the character, but she's Serious Business FBI Agent at the end.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:24 AM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:24 AM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
Also IIRC in Red Dragon, Will pushes the science team to look for evidence in places where they wouldn't normally look. On his advice, Price manages to quickly get a fingerprint off a victim's eyeball just before her funeral takes place.
And it's his "empathing" that lets him know where to look, because he thinks the Tooth Fairy would have wanted to touch her skin and eyes in an "intimate" situation.
In the book, Graham seems rational enough to Price because he says "look here for evidence" and Price looks, and there is evidence. But another interlocutor recoils at Graham's empathing that this is an "intimate" situation, which shows that people are often impressed and repelled by Graham simultaneously.
We don't really get the connections elucidated like that in the show, I've noticed. He's treated like there's a conflict between his analysis and the evidence. Or at least, in the beginning, he's right that the girl was gored, but he infers that from the presence of antler velvet in the wounds, rather than saying "look in the wounds for antler velvet". That's off the top of my head, but I THINK that in the show, the evidence is usually coming first and then Graham interprets it, rather than Graham intuiting where the evidence is likely to be found. Or at least, doing so in such a concretely helpful way. I would have to go back over it all and check, though.
posted by tel3path at 11:12 AM on March 28, 2014
And it's his "empathing" that lets him know where to look, because he thinks the Tooth Fairy would have wanted to touch her skin and eyes in an "intimate" situation.
In the book, Graham seems rational enough to Price because he says "look here for evidence" and Price looks, and there is evidence. But another interlocutor recoils at Graham's empathing that this is an "intimate" situation, which shows that people are often impressed and repelled by Graham simultaneously.
We don't really get the connections elucidated like that in the show, I've noticed. He's treated like there's a conflict between his analysis and the evidence. Or at least, in the beginning, he's right that the girl was gored, but he infers that from the presence of antler velvet in the wounds, rather than saying "look in the wounds for antler velvet". That's off the top of my head, but I THINK that in the show, the evidence is usually coming first and then Graham interprets it, rather than Graham intuiting where the evidence is likely to be found. Or at least, doing so in such a concretely helpful way. I would have to go back over it all and check, though.
posted by tel3path at 11:12 AM on March 28, 2014
Can't wait for tonight's eppy, interested in a metafilter tv subsite, and now this thread's in my Recent Activity.
posted by infinitewindow at 11:32 AM on March 28, 2014
posted by infinitewindow at 11:32 AM on March 28, 2014
THE HOURS JUST OOZE BY, SEPARATING ME FROM POOL EPISODE.
posted by The Whelk at 11:33 AM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 11:33 AM on March 28, 2014
Ah the upcoming pool episode.
I think I am just about emotionally prepared for Hannibloom, but don't quote me on that.
Spoiler shields up. Goodbye friends I am gone
posted by tel3path at 11:35 AM on March 28, 2014
I think I am just about emotionally prepared for Hannibloom, but don't quote me on that.
Spoiler shields up. Goodbye friends I am gone
posted by tel3path at 11:35 AM on March 28, 2014
The Winners of the Hannibal Paper Doll Out And About contest!
such a creative, loving fandom for a show about serial killing cannibals
posted by The Whelk at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
such a creative, loving fandom for a show about serial killing cannibals
posted by The Whelk at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm not emotionally prepared for Hannibloom, but I suspect this is for very different reasons.
posted by dogheart at 12:23 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by dogheart at 12:23 PM on March 28, 2014
Someone tangentally in my social circle is a musician with a song called "Cannibal."
posted by The Whelk at 1:07 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 1:07 PM on March 28, 2014
While I feel the series really 'gets' Will Graham in a way that neither of the film adaptations did I think their depiction of his "empathic skills" at crime scenes are treated more like a magic power than just creepily apt insight. It's one of the few weak points in the show. He doesn't really look at the crime scenes, he just lapses into a trance-like state and suddenly he can see into the past.
...and now this thread is also in my recent activity. This is my design.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
...and now this thread is also in my recent activity. This is my design.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think their depiction of his "empathic skills" at crime scenes are treated more like a magic power than just creepily apt insight
I don't think the show treats it as a magic power, really. The show visualizes it, but we're just seeing what's going on in Will's head when he's looking at a crime scene. There's even a whole conversation with Jack about how he makes leaps no one else does that he can't explain to which Will retorts "the evidence explains!"
Seeing Will commit the crimes (in his head) lends quite a bit of weight to the idea that doing this stuff, even if it saves lives, takes quite a toll on him .
PS. The inifinite breadsticks are people.
posted by sparkletone at 1:44 PM on March 28, 2014
I don't think the show treats it as a magic power, really. The show visualizes it, but we're just seeing what's going on in Will's head when he's looking at a crime scene. There's even a whole conversation with Jack about how he makes leaps no one else does that he can't explain to which Will retorts "the evidence explains!"
Seeing Will commit the crimes (in his head) lends quite a bit of weight to the idea that doing this stuff, even if it saves lives, takes quite a toll on him .
PS. The inifinite breadsticks are people.
posted by sparkletone at 1:44 PM on March 28, 2014
Oh and just to add. Alana looks a bit like a raven in the oil-lady scene and I think she's performing some of the functions of a raven... One of which is that a raven dines at Hannibal's table, feeds off what he has to offer.
So yeah among other things, narcissistic supply is one reason why Alana sticks to Hannibal.
(Re-submerging pending viewing tomorrow or Sunday)
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on March 28, 2014
So yeah among other things, narcissistic supply is one reason why Alana sticks to Hannibal.
(Re-submerging pending viewing tomorrow or Sunday)
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on March 28, 2014
[surface]
Prediction:
Chilton's cane will be used as a weapon to kill Abel Gideon?
[submerge/]
posted by tel3path at 3:40 PM on March 28, 2014
Prediction:
Chilton's cane will be used as a weapon to kill Abel Gideon?
[submerge/]
posted by tel3path at 3:40 PM on March 28, 2014
Everyone else has noticed Chilton's gold pen or his gold pen tie clip is in nearly every scene he's in?
You know that pen that is used in a certain somebody's escape....
posted by The Whelk at 4:01 PM on March 28, 2014
You know that pen that is used in a certain somebody's escape....
posted by The Whelk at 4:01 PM on March 28, 2014
I am having to exercise every ounce of restraint I can to not buy that ShirtPunch Murder Grahams tee.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:05 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:05 PM on March 28, 2014
4.5 hours until I hang the "DO NOT DISTURB - Mama's watchin' her show" sign on the bedroom door.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:28 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by echolalia67 at 4:28 PM on March 28, 2014
A propos of nothing, is there an official term for meat harvested from human livestock? Like a more euphemistic one -- human is to ___ as pig is to pork or cow is to beef... Asking for a friend.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:54 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by wabbittwax at 4:54 PM on March 28, 2014
Soylent.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:59 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:59 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Braised soylent... Roasted soylent ... Chicken fried soylent
Just turning it over in my mouth to see how it feels.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:03 PM on March 28, 2014
Just turning it over in my mouth to see how it feels.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:03 PM on March 28, 2014
Soylent A L'orange. Soylent Tikka Masala. Salisbury Soylent.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:07 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:07 PM on March 28, 2014
Previous viewings with my husband have taught me not to smoke weed if he going to be watching too. While I'm laughing out loud at the cannibal puns & in-jokes, he's wondering what kind of sadistic lunatic he married.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:11 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by echolalia67 at 5:11 PM on March 28, 2014
Asian American actress Erin Quill blogs about Asian representation on television, including thoughts on the life and death of Beverly Katz - in the context of Asian representation and other recent TV deaths.
posted by crossoverman at 5:28 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by crossoverman at 5:28 PM on March 28, 2014
Watchings in this house are done after dinner, with brandy at the ready, with horrified screaming intercut with Mad cackling laughter.
posted by The Whelk at 5:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
On an unrelated note I want the wallpaper in the Crawford bedroom. Heavy patterned wallpaper hasn't been popular since the late 70s ( like heavily patterned suits) and it keeps almost coming back but not really.
I'm still scarred by the stuff my parents put on the walls back in the 1970s. Mom, to this day, loves her some wallpaper - the more gingham-y, flowery, and "easy-to-clean vinyl" the better. I. Can't. Get. Past. It.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:06 PM on March 28, 2014
I'm still scarred by the stuff my parents put on the walls back in the 1970s. Mom, to this day, loves her some wallpaper - the more gingham-y, flowery, and "easy-to-clean vinyl" the better. I. Can't. Get. Past. It.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:06 PM on March 28, 2014
Previous viewings with my husband have taught me not to smoke weed if he going to be watching too. While I'm laughing out loud at the cannibal puns & in-jokes, he's wondering what kind of sadistic lunatic he married.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't smoke up, it means you should share!
It's really hard to explain how disturbing it is to see a psychopathic type person change personae. They pick up mannerisms that you could swear they got from you, but you're not around any more. They just took what they needed from you to move up to the next level, and now they're going around wearing parts of you like feathers in their cap, but you aren't part of their world any more, except perhaps as an object of ridicule. It's uncanny and disturbing to an extent that doesn't seem to be warranted by the facts of whatever the offense was.
Because that's just another way of consuming someone, I think? It's parasitic, like a vampire slowly draining away your life to keep himself going, as you become weaker and weaker and he becomes the only strong thing in your life -- and once you're nearly empty and helpless, he kills you and you either rise again as a monster just like him or stay dead. And in vampire shows, the people who choose to become "strong" like that almost invariably fall in thrall to the monster that made them that way. I think that's almost exactly Hannibal's story with Will so far, and I get the feeling it was his story with Bedelia back in the day.
This also annoys me cause Will's whole aesthetic is straight Upper middle class, Outdoor-y, L. L Bean. I mean, he can't match shirts to ties and probably shouldn't wear fishing gear in not fishing contexts but nothing about his glorious historic farmhouse and no doubt sturdy wardrobe reads as scruffy or impoverished until you put him next to Mr. Aristocrat Bleeding Edge Design Vampire.
I don't think that Will looks scruffy or impoverished (at all! you know he uses product, the man has zero frizz), but I do think he looks soft. All his clothes are cozy, comfy tweeds or sweaters in earth tones, even his jump suit looks like it's been laundred a million times so it's soft as a pillowcase, his hair is soft, curly, and "tousled," and he comes off as slight even though I don't think Hugh Dancy is actually particularly slight in real life. I think he comes off as relatively unimposing physically because his body language is pretty unassertive -- he's usually either facing away from the person he's talking to, or if he is technically facing them, he's either sort of slouching or sitting down and often not looking in *quite* the right direction as he talks. He doesn't do a lot of actually standing square to someone, or looking right into a person's face when he speaks, and he tends to stand off to the side and a little far from people (Hannibal, in contrast, always seems to face people square and stands slightly too close and it's not unusual for him to be standing while the person he's speaking to isn't). I think Will's body language is a lot more assertive this season (from within his little cage and almost entirely from a seated position, natch), but last season his body language eventually got really distant. Even in the relatively few scenes when it seemed more assertive at first, the show would often then reveal that something else was completely "off" about the interaction, like when he was confidently lecturing...to an empty hall. Or when he was calmly and assertively talking to...Zombie!Georgia. Now that we know Will was having seizures and the show hasn't played the narrative completely straight, I categorize at least some of Will's interactions with Hannibal where he would be *relatively* assertive but during which it now turns out his perceptions were divorced from reality.
posted by rue72 at 6:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
That doesn't mean you shouldn't smoke up, it means you should share!
It's really hard to explain how disturbing it is to see a psychopathic type person change personae. They pick up mannerisms that you could swear they got from you, but you're not around any more. They just took what they needed from you to move up to the next level, and now they're going around wearing parts of you like feathers in their cap, but you aren't part of their world any more, except perhaps as an object of ridicule. It's uncanny and disturbing to an extent that doesn't seem to be warranted by the facts of whatever the offense was.
Because that's just another way of consuming someone, I think? It's parasitic, like a vampire slowly draining away your life to keep himself going, as you become weaker and weaker and he becomes the only strong thing in your life -- and once you're nearly empty and helpless, he kills you and you either rise again as a monster just like him or stay dead. And in vampire shows, the people who choose to become "strong" like that almost invariably fall in thrall to the monster that made them that way. I think that's almost exactly Hannibal's story with Will so far, and I get the feeling it was his story with Bedelia back in the day.
This also annoys me cause Will's whole aesthetic is straight Upper middle class, Outdoor-y, L. L Bean. I mean, he can't match shirts to ties and probably shouldn't wear fishing gear in not fishing contexts but nothing about his glorious historic farmhouse and no doubt sturdy wardrobe reads as scruffy or impoverished until you put him next to Mr. Aristocrat Bleeding Edge Design Vampire.
I don't think that Will looks scruffy or impoverished (at all! you know he uses product, the man has zero frizz), but I do think he looks soft. All his clothes are cozy, comfy tweeds or sweaters in earth tones, even his jump suit looks like it's been laundred a million times so it's soft as a pillowcase, his hair is soft, curly, and "tousled," and he comes off as slight even though I don't think Hugh Dancy is actually particularly slight in real life. I think he comes off as relatively unimposing physically because his body language is pretty unassertive -- he's usually either facing away from the person he's talking to, or if he is technically facing them, he's either sort of slouching or sitting down and often not looking in *quite* the right direction as he talks. He doesn't do a lot of actually standing square to someone, or looking right into a person's face when he speaks, and he tends to stand off to the side and a little far from people (Hannibal, in contrast, always seems to face people square and stands slightly too close and it's not unusual for him to be standing while the person he's speaking to isn't). I think Will's body language is a lot more assertive this season (from within his little cage and almost entirely from a seated position, natch), but last season his body language eventually got really distant. Even in the relatively few scenes when it seemed more assertive at first, the show would often then reveal that something else was completely "off" about the interaction, like when he was confidently lecturing...to an empty hall. Or when he was calmly and assertively talking to...Zombie!Georgia. Now that we know Will was having seizures and the show hasn't played the narrative completely straight, I categorize at least some of Will's interactions with Hannibal where he would be *relatively* assertive but during which it now turns out his perceptions were divorced from reality.
posted by rue72 at 6:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
yeah Will is Cozy. Comfortable. All-American even.
The softest fabric in the Lecter House/Office would appear to be leather or very rigid antqiue furnishings. It's supposed to shock and dazzle you into submission, not invite you in to sit down and get comfortable.
posted by The Whelk at 6:16 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
The softest fabric in the Lecter House/Office would appear to be leather or very rigid antqiue furnishings. It's supposed to shock and dazzle you into submission, not invite you in to sit down and get comfortable.
posted by The Whelk at 6:16 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
A propos of nothing, is there an official term for meat harvested from human livestock?
Historically, the distinction between animal-on-the-hoof and animal-as-meat in the language arose through class and economics. Our words for the animals in the field came from the language of the conquered people who tended them and served the meat to their masters. Our words for the meat came from the language of the people who dined without doing the dirty work of tending the animals. To this day the French word for cow is boeuf.
Since there isn't any such historical difference for humans, it's just human, just as one of our Saxon ancestors would have been happy to dine on a plate of cow.
posted by localroger at 6:32 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
Historically, the distinction between animal-on-the-hoof and animal-as-meat in the language arose through class and economics. Our words for the animals in the field came from the language of the conquered people who tended them and served the meat to their masters. Our words for the meat came from the language of the people who dined without doing the dirty work of tending the animals. To this day the French word for cow is boeuf.
Since there isn't any such historical difference for humans, it's just human, just as one of our Saxon ancestors would have been happy to dine on a plate of cow.
posted by localroger at 6:32 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
Well, not the eggs.
posted by Small Dollar at 7:03 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Small Dollar at 7:03 PM on March 28, 2014
I KNEW FULL WELL WHAT WAS COMING AND YET I AM STILL EMOTIONALLY COMPROMISED.
posted by sparkletone at 7:06 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:06 PM on March 28, 2014
Wow. He went all Chicago Museum of Science and Industry on her.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
There really needs to be a guard posted there or security cameras or something.
posted by Small Dollar at 7:09 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 7:09 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
The anguish of Jimmy Price stabs me through the heart.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:11 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:11 PM on March 28, 2014
Can someone mail me some more expletives? I'm running out.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:13 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:13 PM on March 28, 2014
It's just a band saw in Hannibal's basement! Nbd, guys.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:16 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:16 PM on March 28, 2014
STILL NOT OKAY.
posted by sparkletone at 7:19 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:19 PM on March 28, 2014
That was amazing. And terrible. And amazing. I AM SO HAPPY.
posted by dogheart at 7:23 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by dogheart at 7:23 PM on March 28, 2014
That was the worst Hannibal smirk. THE WORST.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh god Chilton trying so hard and failing to hide his malicious little glee.
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on March 28, 2014
A little something for the llllllllladies (and others who find Mads attractive).
posted by sparkletone at 7:29 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:29 PM on March 28, 2014
I can tell commercials are over even when I'm in the kitchen getting a drink because the weird clanking noises have started again.
posted by sparkletone at 7:32 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:32 PM on March 28, 2014
Hey wasn't Body Worlds was a plot device in Casino Royale?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:33 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:33 PM on March 28, 2014
To paraphrase an old episode of Sealab 2021: "Oops. Dart in your back."
posted by sparkletone at 7:52 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:52 PM on March 28, 2014
Huh. That was less...kicking and choking... than I expected.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:52 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:52 PM on March 28, 2014
NOOOOOOOO. CANNIBAL MAKE OUTS IN THE NEXT WEEK ON. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on March 28, 2014
BRYAN YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THE PORN GIF's JOBS FOR THEM
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on March 28, 2014
NOTHING IS OKAY. NOTHING WILL EVER BE OKAY.
Except maybe Dress Down Casual Friday Mads from the beginning of the episode. That was surprisingly okay.
posted by Stacey at 8:05 PM on March 28, 2014
Except maybe Dress Down Casual Friday Mads from the beginning of the episode. That was surprisingly okay.
posted by Stacey at 8:05 PM on March 28, 2014
I was upset seeing him in a casual little jumper.
Nothing says instant romance like saving a man from an S&M underpants crucifix
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 28, 2014
Nothing says instant romance like saving a man from an S&M underpants crucifix
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 28, 2014
Fuller is shipping within shipping. It's shipping inception.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:07 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:07 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
The MOSI exhibit happened in a few hours? You can't freeze a mass the size of a human body that quickly. Unless--
FIND THE LIQUID NITROGEN TRUCK AND YOU FIND THE RIPPER.
posted by localroger at 8:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
FIND THE LIQUID NITROGEN TRUCK AND YOU FIND THE RIPPER.
posted by localroger at 8:08 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
YES WE HAD A MINI GRUMP ABOUT IT UNTIL WE REMEMBERED ABIGAL'S TELEPORTATION POWERS.
MURDER WIZARDS!
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
MURDER WIZARDS!
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, they do the full Hannibal-from-SOTL security drill on Will but then everyone clears while Jack releases him from his restraints? I wanna know what WIll's safe word is and who to call to get an invite to their little S&M scene.
posted by localroger at 8:12 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by localroger at 8:12 PM on March 28, 2014
I liked the homage with the face restraint, but it doesn't really make sense if Will hasn't bitten anyone.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:14 PM on March 28, 2014
BEST SHIP. MOST FUCKED UP SHIP.
ugh that last half of the episode was brilliant but I can't even come up with anything about it because THAT PREVIEW
posted by dogheart at 8:17 PM on March 28, 2014
ugh that last half of the episode was brilliant but I can't even come up with anything about it because THAT PREVIEW
posted by dogheart at 8:17 PM on March 28, 2014
Mayhaps HanniBloom is not real and just the result of a wrong turn in Will's mind palace.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:17 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:17 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
FIND THE LIQUID NITROGEN TRUCK AND YOU FIND THE RIPPER.
Does he just keep giant slabs of glass or plastic or whatever around? WHERE DID HE GET THOSE?!
Murder wizard powers.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Does he just keep giant slabs of glass or plastic or whatever around? WHERE DID HE GET THOSE?!
Murder wizard powers.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Obviously the museum display glass slabs are carried on liquid nitrogen trucks. Aren't they a standard accessory?
I work in industry and know better than this but sheesh.
posted by localroger at 8:20 PM on March 28, 2014
I work in industry and know better than this but sheesh.
posted by localroger at 8:20 PM on March 28, 2014
Previous viewings with my husband have taught me not to smoke weed if he going to be watching too. While I'm laughing out loud at the cannibal puns & in-jokes, he's wondering what kind of sadistic lunatic he married.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't smoke up, it means you should share!
Unfortunately, the husband pretty much conks out within 15 minutes of toking so he doesn't understand the appeal. So here I am, wondering which strain is best paired with people. I'm staying away from Purple Kush, despite it's "deep body stone". Suggestions?
posted by echolalia67 at 8:22 PM on March 28, 2014
That doesn't mean you shouldn't smoke up, it means you should share!
Unfortunately, the husband pretty much conks out within 15 minutes of toking so he doesn't understand the appeal. So here I am, wondering which strain is best paired with people. I'm staying away from Purple Kush, despite it's "deep body stone". Suggestions?
posted by echolalia67 at 8:22 PM on March 28, 2014
Also, did something bad happen to Bryan Fuller at an observatory once, cause damn.
posted by sparkletone at 8:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 8:25 PM on March 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yeah, what the fuck is it with the observatory? Was it cheap week on set rentals or does somebody feel like the prostate exam felt like a telescope being applied or what?
posted by localroger at 8:33 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by localroger at 8:33 PM on March 28, 2014
They need like a security guard or a lock or something
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on March 28, 2014
Yeah because nobody would be worried about like vandals or something damaging a telescope expensive enough to justify the building it's in.
posted by localroger at 8:38 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by localroger at 8:38 PM on March 28, 2014
Alternate universe Baltimore is lousy with expensive telescopes and serial killers.
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Bryan Fuller is the anti-Neal DeGrasse Tyson, inspiring children everywhere to flee astronomy for the study of The Sassy Sciences.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014
Less events in pure plot terms happened in this episode but those that did happen where ...big.
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014
Hahaha. Tumblr is full on meltdown mode right now. About half at the next week on, about half of it GIFs of shirtless Mads.
posted by sparkletone at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 8:39 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Less events in pure plot terms happened in this episode but those that did happen where ...big.
I was glad for the slightly more deliberate pace this week after four episodes that felt so break neck (pardon the phrase).
posted by sparkletone at 8:40 PM on March 28, 2014
I was glad for the slightly more deliberate pace this week after four episodes that felt so break neck (pardon the phrase).
posted by sparkletone at 8:40 PM on March 28, 2014
Shirtless Mads -- I wonder if like Gumb he strips down to the skin for the wet work. I bet someone reading that just had an orgasm.
posted by localroger at 8:41 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by localroger at 8:41 PM on March 28, 2014
that horrible sad face Will makes when he realizes he can't tell Jack who he *knows* is the Ripper.
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:51 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I ship Concerned Looking Sink with Hannibal's door.
posted by sparkletone at 8:56 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 8:56 PM on March 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
GIFs of shirtless Mads.
Um, yeah, I'm not sure it was just the shirt's lack that was popular.
posted by jeather at 9:20 PM on March 28, 2014
Um, yeah, I'm not sure it was just the shirt's lack that was popular.
posted by jeather at 9:20 PM on March 28, 2014
I think my brain probably shorted out at like 10:22 pm.
BRYAN FULLER LOVES US AND WANTS US TO BE HAPPY
posted by dogheart at 9:29 PM on March 28, 2014
BRYAN FULLER LOVES US AND WANTS US TO BE HAPPY
posted by dogheart at 9:29 PM on March 28, 2014
No, but like. Aside from my insatiable shipper frenzy, was it just me, or was that episode really really good?
posted by dogheart at 9:39 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by dogheart at 9:39 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
It is not just you. On second-viewing, this is my favorite episode of the season to date, I think.
posted by sparkletone at 9:41 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 9:41 PM on March 28, 2014
Abel Gideon is back and Will is growing horns and nothing hurts.
(and everyone is having amazing "talking about one thing but REALLY talking about another I-know-you-know-i-know" conversations cause Chilton is recording everything.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on March 28, 2014
(and everyone is having amazing "talking about one thing but REALLY talking about another I-know-you-know-i-know" conversations cause Chilton is recording everything.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on March 28, 2014
"talking about one thing but REALLY talking about another I-know-you-know-i-know"
Christ, that conversation between Gideon and Hannibal was just beautifully done.
posted by sparkletone at 9:52 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
Christ, that conversation between Gideon and Hannibal was just beautifully done.
posted by sparkletone at 9:52 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
notice the two DEVIL HORNS beside Hannibal when he's tucking into dinner?
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 PM on March 28, 2014
The music was particularly unsettling tonight. Well, everything in the episode worked toward a symphony of unsettling.
A+
posted by crossoverman at 10:02 PM on March 28, 2014
A+
posted by crossoverman at 10:02 PM on March 28, 2014
SO said he was very upset cause the music was almost all following Japanese theater music traditions, all percussion and irregular time signatures, and that style GETS ON HIS NERVES.
also, from the AV club comments:
"Alana Bloom, master of the hurt/comfort fic"
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
also, from the AV club comments:
"Alana Bloom, master of the hurt/comfort fic"
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
also, oh god, how devestated everyone was, how deep the grief, how long we spent on it. This is the pivot change for the season. This is when even what little bets, are off.
Jack and Will, Zeller and Price, hell even Freddie now have a pretty clear goal ...Find Bev's killer and make them pay. No matter how outlandish the accusation is.
Only Alana is the hold out, the visiting professor, so she's the next target.
THIS SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 PM on March 28, 2014
Jack and Will, Zeller and Price, hell even Freddie now have a pretty clear goal ...Find Bev's killer and make them pay. No matter how outlandish the accusation is.
Only Alana is the hold out, the visiting professor, so she's the next target.
THIS SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 PM on March 28, 2014
Will got so angry and sad that he nearly (well, kinda DID) went over to the black antler dark side
you know, the thing Hannibal wanted to happen.
posted by The Whelk at 10:23 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
you know, the thing Hannibal wanted to happen.
posted by The Whelk at 10:23 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
The food porn this week felt dirty and shameful. As he swipes ground Beverly away from the grinder its like, not Ok. I think its interesting that the show has managed to make me feel just a bit of what the characters have in store; to whit, seduced by the flashy part of Hannibal's lifestyle, only to be slapped in the face by the reality that he's an actual monster and will literally eat the people you care about.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:33 PM on March 28, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:33 PM on March 28, 2014 [7 favorites]
They pre-empted HANNIBAL for coverage of a small earthquake here in Los Angeles. This is unacceptable! Someone will be eaten for this.
posted by Justinian at 10:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
I did not want to eat that kidney/mincemeat pie.
Oh but the meal he makes for Crawford/Crawfish.
I made a Jack Crawford joke when sucking out Crawfish heads at Luke in New Orleans.
THIS SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh but the meal he makes for Crawford/Crawfish.
I made a Jack Crawford joke when sucking out Crawfish heads at Luke in New Orleans.
THIS SHOW.
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on March 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Did I say eaten? I didn't mean eaten. I meant... uh... something definitely not eaten.
posted by Justinian at 10:37 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by Justinian at 10:37 PM on March 28, 2014
Oh oh, Willl's got a bad case of murder fever!
posted by echolalia67 at 10:39 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by echolalia67 at 10:39 PM on March 28, 2014
Creepy murder orderly is creepy. Is he ...sexually harassing will in the midst of this murder bros 4EVAH thing?
posted by echolalia67 at 10:55 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by echolalia67 at 10:55 PM on March 28, 2014
Will just attracts these guys, I feel his pain in DC I was Married GOP Lobbyist Bait for some reason.
posted by The Whelk at 11:07 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:07 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh man. Jack tearing up as we watch him see Bev before we do. Laurence Fishburne brought it. HEART STABS.
Did anyone catch the orderly's name? It's on his badge, but I couldn't read it.
I- I don't know about the Hannibloom. I guess I see Hannibal as not being particularly interested in sex in general. But I can see him being very amused by how mad it would make Will. I could also see it just being a Will-dream. I'm VERY INTERESTED in what will happen to Alana after EVERYTHING IS REVEALED. Has Hannibal been gaslighting her? Or will she have a breakdown over her NOT SMALL part in bringing Will and Hannibal together?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:17 PM on March 28, 2014
Did anyone catch the orderly's name? It's on his badge, but I couldn't read it.
I- I don't know about the Hannibloom. I guess I see Hannibal as not being particularly interested in sex in general. But I can see him being very amused by how mad it would make Will. I could also see it just being a Will-dream. I'm VERY INTERESTED in what will happen to Alana after EVERYTHING IS REVEALED. Has Hannibal been gaslighting her? Or will she have a breakdown over her NOT SMALL part in bringing Will and Hannibal together?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:17 PM on March 28, 2014
Watching the show with my dad while Hannibal is preparing the kidneys: "Why am I watching this show... oh, is that thyme?"
posted by homunculus at 11:33 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 11:33 PM on March 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, but like. Aside from my insatiable shipper frenzy, was it just me, or was that episode really really good?
Yes, it was.
posted by homunculus at 11:34 PM on March 28, 2014
Yes, it was.
posted by homunculus at 11:34 PM on March 28, 2014
just like Will doesn't understand that an ear is an overture of affection he doesn't know that sending a murderous madman after someone is an "OH BAE ILU 5EVER"
posted by The Whelk at 11:50 PM on March 28, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 11:50 PM on March 28, 2014
It's not getting as much as attention as the many other awesome things in this episode, but Chilton gives Alana the World's Best Side-Eye during their scene on the staircase. My sister has promised to .gif it for me if no one on Tumblr has done it already.
posted by brookedel at 12:41 AM on March 29, 2014
posted by brookedel at 12:41 AM on March 29, 2014
I love Eddie Izzard to bits, but that accent.... Is Gideon american or british ?
posted by Pendragon at 2:39 AM on March 29, 2014
posted by Pendragon at 2:39 AM on March 29, 2014
I knew we'd see Will kill Bev. Didn't make it any easier.
In terms of on-screen violence done to humans, Will is by far the most prolific killer of this series. I'm not as conversant with detective/profiler media as I should be, but faithfully casting the detective explicitly in the dramatic recreation as the perp seems unique to me.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:51 AM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
In terms of on-screen violence done to humans, Will is by far the most prolific killer of this series. I'm not as conversant with detective/profiler media as I should be, but faithfully casting the detective explicitly in the dramatic recreation as the perp seems unique to me.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:51 AM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's different but actually pretty true to Harris' description of Will's technique. Thus the original threat that Will might become what he hunts.
posted by localroger at 10:14 AM on March 29, 2014
posted by localroger at 10:14 AM on March 29, 2014
Or you know, can become a STAG MONSTER.
I love that Stag monster imaginary.
posted by The Whelk at 10:28 AM on March 29, 2014
I love that Stag monster imaginary.
posted by The Whelk at 10:28 AM on March 29, 2014
The stag monster is a great visual depiction of what Will might Become if he isn't careful.
posted by localroger at 10:36 AM on March 29, 2014
posted by localroger at 10:36 AM on March 29, 2014
What I remember more about Will's technique in the novel was that he would see the scene, see the evidence, and sometimes it would be too much to bear, and he would retreat into memories and let his subconscious shape the memories into insight.
Wow, now I really want to write an essay about First World guilt, the Stag/Wendigo motif, consumer culture and Hannibal.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:41 AM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
He reached for something to think about, anything. The pharmacy where he bought the Bufferin, then; perhaps because it was his only experience all day that was not related to death.There is a paragraph earlier about how Will has "no effective partitions in his mind," but throughout the novel he thinks about the killer he chases in third- and second-person. The first-person narrative Will uses in the show is only in the show. It seems super-obvious to do that in hindsight, like most brilliant innovations.
He could remember old drugstores with soda fountains. As a boy, he thought old drugstores had a slightly furtive air. When you went in, you always thought about buying rubbers whether you needed any or not. There were things on the shelves you shouldn’t look at too long. [...]
He preferred the drugstore and sundry of his childhood. [...] He thought about Smoot. Old Smoot had been the soda jerk and manager for the pharmacist who owned the local drugstore when Graham was a child. Smoot, who drank on the job, forgot to unroll the awning and the sneakers melted in the window. Smoot forgot to unplug the coffeepot, and the fire department was summoned. Smoot sold ice cream cones to children on credit.
His principal outrage was ordering fifty Kewpie dolls from a detail man while the store owner was on vacation. On his return, the owner fired Smoot for a week. Then they held a Kewpie doll sale. Fifty of the Kewpie dolls were arranged in a semicircle in the front window so that they all stared at whoever was looking in.
They had wide eyes of cornflower blue. It was a striking display and Graham had looked at it for some time. He knew they were only Kewpie dolls, but he could feel the focus of their attention. So many of them looking. A number of people stopped to look at them. Plaster dolls, all with the same silly spit curl, yet their concentrated gaze had made his face tingle.
Graham began to relax a little on the bed. Kewpie dolls staring. He started to take a drink, gasped, and choked it onto his chest. [...]
Here were the three bloodstains slanting up the corner, and here were the matching stains on the carpet. Here were the dimensions of the three children. Brother, sister, big brother. Match. Match. Match.
Wow, now I really want to write an essay about First World guilt, the Stag/Wendigo motif, consumer culture and Hannibal.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:41 AM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
THe Socioeconomic Of Hannibal: On Consumption
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
welp
I need to check out this Walter Benjamin guy though.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:57 AM on March 29, 2014
I need to check out this Walter Benjamin guy though.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:57 AM on March 29, 2014
Did anyone catch the orderly's name? It's on his badge, but I couldn't read it.
Matthew Brown, I believe, in keeping with this deason's color theme.
posted by sparkletone at 11:21 AM on March 29, 2014
Matthew Brown, I believe, in keeping with this deason's color theme.
posted by sparkletone at 11:21 AM on March 29, 2014
Soooo
anyone else think the shot of the orderly with the reflective goggles is yet another Red Dragon reference cause he was LOUSY with them
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 PM on March 29, 2014
anyone else think the shot of the orderly with the reflective goggles is yet another Red Dragon reference cause he was LOUSY with them
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 PM on March 29, 2014
Is he ...sexually harassing will in the midst of this murder bros 4EVAH thing?
i feel like everybody, if given the slightest chance, sexually harasses will.
Best detail? Zeller and Price sound like they've been doing nothing but drinking and crying for days
posted by The Whelk at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
i feel like everybody, if given the slightest chance, sexually harasses will.
Best detail? Zeller and Price sound like they've been doing nothing but drinking and crying for days
posted by The Whelk at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
After a rewatch of 4 I am much more satisfied with the Amanda Plummer scenes. After she sits down there's a moment where she considers her situation and clearly makes a decision to not fight.
Episode 5 was great. By which I mean tense and awful. Really not wanting to wait for this season to unfold.
It was really interesting that talking to Gideon led Will on the road to lashing out at Hannibal. I think the lesson here is a major theme of the show; DON'T TALK TO PSYCHOPATHS.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2014
Episode 5 was great. By which I mean tense and awful. Really not wanting to wait for this season to unfold.
It was really interesting that talking to Gideon led Will on the road to lashing out at Hannibal. I think the lesson here is a major theme of the show; DON'T TALK TO PSYCHOPATHS.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2014
we got word of god saying Orderly Ain't Dead Just Shot.
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 12:43 PM on March 29, 2014
The stag monster is a great visual depiction of what Will might Become if he isn't careful.
I think that the stag monster is already a part of him, it's just that he still has other parts of himself, too. Wonder how long that's going to last? I hope that Will gets control of the stag monster and lets it do his dirty work for him, because that's the only way I think the other parts of Will (the "person" parts) will survive.
I think Will made a big mistake trying to hire out Hannibal's murder. First off, because he only had the word of a lunatic murderer orderly that the place isn't wired for sound, so he should probably have waited until he's in an *actually* secure location (like uh anyplace outside the prison) before hiring a hit man, and second off, because why would Will think that this random guy is going to be able to kill Hannibal anyway? It seemed like the most likely outcome was going to be that Hannibal kills the orderly and then makes him a patsy for at least some of the crimes (maybe all "Will's" crimes as well, if Hannibal's slick and/or forgiving enough?). Or was that Will's goal anyway? I dunno, Will is hard for me to read, he's so smarmy lately, as though he's got some grand plan, but then he never seems to actually have any plan at all aside from awkwardly hinting to everyone that he knows something they don't know. Or am I missing something (I'm probably missing something)?
Anyway, I loved the orderly, really happy that he's not dead. I always love that actor, I forget where I've seen him before (someone said the Black Donnellys?) but he can wonder around shirtless or in that clingy little wet jacket anytime. Plus I liked that even after he got shot the orderly was like GOTTA KICK THE BUCKET. My kind of person.
Will got such a raw deal on his work release. He's in a little cage except when he has to go examine his friends' mutilated bodies? Also, this is kind of dumb, but -- can you imagine having that big, gloppy prison breakfast and then riding around in the back of a van, on a wheeled gurney thing and up/around hills to an observation tower? And with that plastic mask on, your breath must be all up in your face and your skin must get clammy and the plastic must start sticking. What if you throw up while you're wearing the mask, wouldn't you choke? (See, this is why I am probably missing something when it comes to the actual plot, I'm busy wondering about medical emergencies (asthma attack, panic attack, even sneezing would be hell in that thing) involving that mask. But it looks so uncomfortable and unsafe).
Did anybody go to the Bodies Exhibition? That's what the crime scene reminded me of. Which...was nice in that it minimized the gore, but did make me feel bad about how much I loved that exhibition. But hey, it was cool! I'll never forget what the sciatic nerve looks like now. Anyway, I'm happy that they kept Beverly's on-screen brutalization to a minimum. The scene that hit me the hardest was actually in the lab, when Beverly should have been examining the body, not lying on the examination table.
And speaking of fall-out from last episode, I hate Jack. Hannibal was talking about how he went against Bella's wishes "for Jack" and Jack just nodded and looked all sad, like that wasn't the most freaking disrespectful thing he'd ever heard. Not only was what Hannibal did wrong, but he didn't even think about it in terms of Bella herself, his priority was Jack -- and Jack was OK with that? I understand Jack doesn't want Bella to die, but does he himself have no respect for her or her wishes?
posted by rue72 at 1:37 PM on March 29, 2014
I think that the stag monster is already a part of him, it's just that he still has other parts of himself, too. Wonder how long that's going to last? I hope that Will gets control of the stag monster and lets it do his dirty work for him, because that's the only way I think the other parts of Will (the "person" parts) will survive.
I think Will made a big mistake trying to hire out Hannibal's murder. First off, because he only had the word of a lunatic murderer orderly that the place isn't wired for sound, so he should probably have waited until he's in an *actually* secure location (like uh anyplace outside the prison) before hiring a hit man, and second off, because why would Will think that this random guy is going to be able to kill Hannibal anyway? It seemed like the most likely outcome was going to be that Hannibal kills the orderly and then makes him a patsy for at least some of the crimes (maybe all "Will's" crimes as well, if Hannibal's slick and/or forgiving enough?). Or was that Will's goal anyway? I dunno, Will is hard for me to read, he's so smarmy lately, as though he's got some grand plan, but then he never seems to actually have any plan at all aside from awkwardly hinting to everyone that he knows something they don't know. Or am I missing something (I'm probably missing something)?
Anyway, I loved the orderly, really happy that he's not dead. I always love that actor, I forget where I've seen him before (someone said the Black Donnellys?) but he can wonder around shirtless or in that clingy little wet jacket anytime. Plus I liked that even after he got shot the orderly was like GOTTA KICK THE BUCKET. My kind of person.
Will got such a raw deal on his work release. He's in a little cage except when he has to go examine his friends' mutilated bodies? Also, this is kind of dumb, but -- can you imagine having that big, gloppy prison breakfast and then riding around in the back of a van, on a wheeled gurney thing and up/around hills to an observation tower? And with that plastic mask on, your breath must be all up in your face and your skin must get clammy and the plastic must start sticking. What if you throw up while you're wearing the mask, wouldn't you choke? (See, this is why I am probably missing something when it comes to the actual plot, I'm busy wondering about medical emergencies (asthma attack, panic attack, even sneezing would be hell in that thing) involving that mask. But it looks so uncomfortable and unsafe).
Did anybody go to the Bodies Exhibition? That's what the crime scene reminded me of. Which...was nice in that it minimized the gore, but did make me feel bad about how much I loved that exhibition. But hey, it was cool! I'll never forget what the sciatic nerve looks like now. Anyway, I'm happy that they kept Beverly's on-screen brutalization to a minimum. The scene that hit me the hardest was actually in the lab, when Beverly should have been examining the body, not lying on the examination table.
And speaking of fall-out from last episode, I hate Jack. Hannibal was talking about how he went against Bella's wishes "for Jack" and Jack just nodded and looked all sad, like that wasn't the most freaking disrespectful thing he'd ever heard. Not only was what Hannibal did wrong, but he didn't even think about it in terms of Bella herself, his priority was Jack -- and Jack was OK with that? I understand Jack doesn't want Bella to die, but does he himself have no respect for her or her wishes?
posted by rue72 at 1:37 PM on March 29, 2014
You think we will also get word of god about more swimming pool scenes? I would be okay with more swimming pool scenes. Or beach, or river, or sauna, whatever.
posted by jeather at 1:38 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by jeather at 1:38 PM on March 29, 2014
I choose to believe the pool isn't a gym it's just yet another room in his massive mansion.
posted by The Whelk at 1:44 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:44 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Will's "smarm" is all part of The Captive Empath Performance staring Will Graham. She's only "honest" with Bev ( chocked sob ) and when he is honest he's steely and direct. He's so manipulative to everyine else, look at what he does to Chilton, plays him like a neck cello. Gideon too. I can't tell how much of it is planned and how much is desperate grasping but it seems uh...
Disturbingly Lecter-like.
posted by The Whelk at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2014
Disturbingly Lecter-like.
posted by The Whelk at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2014
the stag-back transformation was based on this which i HIGHLY recommend everybody see.
posted by The Whelk at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Will's "smarm" is all part of The Captive Empath Performance staring Will Graham. She's only "honest" with Bev ( chocked sob ) and when he is honest he's steely and direct. He's so manipulative to everyine else, look at what he does to Chilton, plays him like a neck cello. Gideon too. I can't tell how much of it is planned and how much is desperate grasping but it seems uh...
What I don't get about it is that he actually doesn't seem like he's actually manipulating them, to me, he seems like he's pretending to manipulate them? I mean, as far as I can tell, he's playing it pretty straight aside from refusing to name Hannibal outright? I'm not understanding why he's bothering with the smarminess, seeing as there's no actual reason I can see to try and broadcast "I'm being fake!" seeing as he's not actually being especially fake? But again, maybe I'm missing something, because I'm not entirely sure what everyone is supposed to know at any given time.
I figure Will has a lot of emotional control, seeing as he's able to do things like keep it together in the observatory or even do his job at all, so it must be a choice that he's being smarmy, I just don't know why it would be useful to him? I'm confused altogether about whether he wants to go free or not? I wouldn't, if I were him, because at least in isolation Hannibal can't get to him directly, but he seems to go back and forth? What is his goal right now?
In terms of being direct with Bev, I had figured that was because she was very direct and was direct with Will, so that was what he gave back to her. And in terms of being smarmy toward Chilton, I had figured it was that same thing -- Chilton is smarmy, so Will is smarmy back to him. That's just what I had been assuming, though, I'm not married to that idea. I have trouble understanding Will altogether -- I still don't understand his thing with Abigail, for example. (If you want to explain that, I'm all ears. Why has he been imagining taking her fishing?).
Could it be that Hannibal’s tired of being a consumer and objectifier and is ready to admit he and others are human? Or are Hannibal’s newest “artworks” simply another method of obfuscation, a way to play mind-games with his boy-toy Will? How long can Hannibal keep eating grumpy members of the proletariat, anyway? And can somebody, anybody, help Will Graham?
I think that Will is Hannibal's muse, not his boy-toy. Not that those are necessarily mutually exclusive, but I think that Hannibal's "thing" about Will is primarily about inspiration rather than attraction, even if Will both inspires and attracts him. I think the art works are in Will's honor, not to screw with his head.
I'm also not sure about Hannibal eating grumpy proletarians, because he isn't one to go after the dregs -- he doesn't eat any sick people, for example. I don't get the feeling that he kills people as a punishment or to cleanse society or anything, he seems to me to just butcher people like a farmer killing livestock (and sometimes he likes to play with his food, as well).
posted by rue72 at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2014
What I don't get about it is that he actually doesn't seem like he's actually manipulating them, to me, he seems like he's pretending to manipulate them? I mean, as far as I can tell, he's playing it pretty straight aside from refusing to name Hannibal outright? I'm not understanding why he's bothering with the smarminess, seeing as there's no actual reason I can see to try and broadcast "I'm being fake!" seeing as he's not actually being especially fake? But again, maybe I'm missing something, because I'm not entirely sure what everyone is supposed to know at any given time.
I figure Will has a lot of emotional control, seeing as he's able to do things like keep it together in the observatory or even do his job at all, so it must be a choice that he's being smarmy, I just don't know why it would be useful to him? I'm confused altogether about whether he wants to go free or not? I wouldn't, if I were him, because at least in isolation Hannibal can't get to him directly, but he seems to go back and forth? What is his goal right now?
In terms of being direct with Bev, I had figured that was because she was very direct and was direct with Will, so that was what he gave back to her. And in terms of being smarmy toward Chilton, I had figured it was that same thing -- Chilton is smarmy, so Will is smarmy back to him. That's just what I had been assuming, though, I'm not married to that idea. I have trouble understanding Will altogether -- I still don't understand his thing with Abigail, for example. (If you want to explain that, I'm all ears. Why has he been imagining taking her fishing?).
Could it be that Hannibal’s tired of being a consumer and objectifier and is ready to admit he and others are human? Or are Hannibal’s newest “artworks” simply another method of obfuscation, a way to play mind-games with his boy-toy Will? How long can Hannibal keep eating grumpy members of the proletariat, anyway? And can somebody, anybody, help Will Graham?
I think that Will is Hannibal's muse, not his boy-toy. Not that those are necessarily mutually exclusive, but I think that Hannibal's "thing" about Will is primarily about inspiration rather than attraction, even if Will both inspires and attracts him. I think the art works are in Will's honor, not to screw with his head.
I'm also not sure about Hannibal eating grumpy proletarians, because he isn't one to go after the dregs -- he doesn't eat any sick people, for example. I don't get the feeling that he kills people as a punishment or to cleanse society or anything, he seems to me to just butcher people like a farmer killing livestock (and sometimes he likes to play with his food, as well).
posted by rue72 at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2014
If he can humiliate them a bit before or after hand it's even better.
posted by The Whelk at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2014
Disturbingly Lecter-like.
This is implicit in all versions of Will as a character; beneath his (in this version) puppy dog exterior lurks the stag monster, his inner Hannibal. It's the stag monster that gives him the power to think like other monsters, but if he's not careful the stag monster will come completely out and take him over. Or "Enter the mind of a serial killer... you may never come back," as the tagline for Manhunter still reads over at IMDB.
Of course one could make the argument that the stag monster saved Will at the end of season 1, and it's the source of his livelihood at the moment, and he's using it to save lives, so having a stag monster in you isn't necessarily all bad. It's just that Will needs to be careful with it.
posted by localroger at 2:56 PM on March 29, 2014
This is implicit in all versions of Will as a character; beneath his (in this version) puppy dog exterior lurks the stag monster, his inner Hannibal. It's the stag monster that gives him the power to think like other monsters, but if he's not careful the stag monster will come completely out and take him over. Or "Enter the mind of a serial killer... you may never come back," as the tagline for Manhunter still reads over at IMDB.
Of course one could make the argument that the stag monster saved Will at the end of season 1, and it's the source of his livelihood at the moment, and he's using it to save lives, so having a stag monster in you isn't necessarily all bad. It's just that Will needs to be careful with it.
posted by localroger at 2:56 PM on March 29, 2014
I don't mind that Will has inconsistent desires or goals, he's all messed up right now, nor do I mind that frozen bodies don't cut like that ( SO gave me a lengthy description as to why! He has first hand experience.) that's just the murder wizard stuff we've seen before.
No what gets me is how the hell do you swing a private late night swimming session at a huge pool? Like, is he friends with the owner? Is there some fancy "tennis and racquet" club that Hannibal frequents when murdering folk isn't meeting his cardio goals? Does he have the owner over for fancy dinners? Is there is whole web of Fancy Baltimore People Hannibal has befriended and gets favors like this out of?
BURNING QUESTNS I DEMAND FANFIC SOLVE.
posted by The Whelk at 2:57 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
No what gets me is how the hell do you swing a private late night swimming session at a huge pool? Like, is he friends with the owner? Is there some fancy "tennis and racquet" club that Hannibal frequents when murdering folk isn't meeting his cardio goals? Does he have the owner over for fancy dinners? Is there is whole web of Fancy Baltimore People Hannibal has befriended and gets favors like this out of?
BURNING QUESTNS I DEMAND FANFIC SOLVE.
posted by The Whelk at 2:57 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
On Bev going into Hannibal's house - and down into the basement.
posted by crossoverman at 3:10 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 3:10 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Will definitely wants to get out, but he also wants to stop Hannibal from killing/manipulating his friends/randoms. He tried shooting Hannibal, Jack stopped him. He tried baldly accusing Hannibal, that made him look crazy. He tried convincing Beverly to investigate Hannibal and it took a long time then got her killed. Will knows that this man is out there, it makes sense that he's going to do everything he can to stop him.
The orderly had already shown he was able to kill/present the bailiff so he isn't a slouch. If the orderly was able to kill Hannibal... then Hannibal's house would be gone through and Will would be proven right. Of course this would still be problematic for Will but he'd be exonerated of the other murders and this one would... well, he'd have a good defense.
And, as, noted, being in BSHCI has not been good for Will. Not only has he had to mostly hide his true thoughts on Hannibal he's being exposed to creeps and psychopaths (Chilton, Gideon) and getting bad ideas. If we here free he probably wouldn't have reached out to this guy to kill Hannibal, he would have just done it himself.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:16 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
The orderly had already shown he was able to kill/present the bailiff so he isn't a slouch. If the orderly was able to kill Hannibal... then Hannibal's house would be gone through and Will would be proven right. Of course this would still be problematic for Will but he'd be exonerated of the other murders and this one would... well, he'd have a good defense.
And, as, noted, being in BSHCI has not been good for Will. Not only has he had to mostly hide his true thoughts on Hannibal he's being exposed to creeps and psychopaths (Chilton, Gideon) and getting bad ideas. If we here free he probably wouldn't have reached out to this guy to kill Hannibal, he would have just done it himself.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:16 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
Plus the food sucks in there.
posted by The Whelk at 3:19 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 3:19 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also at first glance I assumed it was Hannibal's pool, too. The bathroom signs suggest it is not but I would have believed he'd have an 8-lane Olympic-sized swimming pool stashed away; it can't be all murder dungeon.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:23 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by mountmccabe at 3:23 PM on March 29, 2014
Although with the previews we're apparently going to see his Living room/salon/whatever so I just assume he lives at Brideshead and has access to every possible room if needed.
Great now I'm wondering what his bathroom looks like.
THE LINEN CLOSET ...OF MURDER.
posted by The Whelk at 3:24 PM on March 29, 2014
Great now I'm wondering what his bathroom looks like.
THE LINEN CLOSET ...OF MURDER.
posted by The Whelk at 3:24 PM on March 29, 2014
I think that Will is Hannibal's muse, not his boy-toy.
Hannibal has perfected himself. He has put a lot of work into himself but at the present time he appears to be content with his skills, his strengths, and his resources. He is comfortable in his skin and with his ability to satisfy his urges. He takes delight in pushing those limits which still exist, such as schmoozing with the people who are trying to catch him and enjoying the fact that they are without a clue.
Hannibal would probably observe that his fellow Art Murder Association members display a deplorable lack of finesse, art, and practical sense. He did like the tapestry guy's work but his work concluded with him being woven into his own tapestry, ending his career. He considers Hobbs to be overly driven, a slave to his fixed conception of how his kill should be properly used. He's predictable and boring. Most of the other Art Murderers are one-trick ponies, they put their shark in a tank and then they got nothin' else.
But then Hannibal meets Will. With the second sight of a predator Hannibal can tell Will has a stag monster lurking within him, a great unrealized aptitude waiting to be unleashed. Lecter is no Salieri; he wants to see Will's potential fulfilled, to for once in his life not be the smartest and most competent monster in the room. In order to make that happen he must weaken or even kill the part of Will that keeps the stag monster caged, and he finds the encephalitis a fortuous found tool to use toward that end.
Will is the only person Hannibal has ever met who might possibly one day inspire him, whose existence suggests that Hannibal might not always be alone in his perfected state. He is the only person in the cast (and possibly in the world) who Hannibal doesn't secretly believe will find their finest moment in his dining room.
And of course, this person with the great hidden power and so like himself is currently dedicated to hunting him down, a challenge which must be met. Hannibal probably believes that when the stag monster is loose that problem will solve itself. And then he might have a friend.
posted by localroger at 3:25 PM on March 29, 2014 [6 favorites]
Hannibal has perfected himself. He has put a lot of work into himself but at the present time he appears to be content with his skills, his strengths, and his resources. He is comfortable in his skin and with his ability to satisfy his urges. He takes delight in pushing those limits which still exist, such as schmoozing with the people who are trying to catch him and enjoying the fact that they are without a clue.
Hannibal would probably observe that his fellow Art Murder Association members display a deplorable lack of finesse, art, and practical sense. He did like the tapestry guy's work but his work concluded with him being woven into his own tapestry, ending his career. He considers Hobbs to be overly driven, a slave to his fixed conception of how his kill should be properly used. He's predictable and boring. Most of the other Art Murderers are one-trick ponies, they put their shark in a tank and then they got nothin' else.
But then Hannibal meets Will. With the second sight of a predator Hannibal can tell Will has a stag monster lurking within him, a great unrealized aptitude waiting to be unleashed. Lecter is no Salieri; he wants to see Will's potential fulfilled, to for once in his life not be the smartest and most competent monster in the room. In order to make that happen he must weaken or even kill the part of Will that keeps the stag monster caged, and he finds the encephalitis a fortuous found tool to use toward that end.
Will is the only person Hannibal has ever met who might possibly one day inspire him, whose existence suggests that Hannibal might not always be alone in his perfected state. He is the only person in the cast (and possibly in the world) who Hannibal doesn't secretly believe will find their finest moment in his dining room.
And of course, this person with the great hidden power and so like himself is currently dedicated to hunting him down, a challenge which must be met. Hannibal probably believes that when the stag monster is loose that problem will solve itself. And then he might have a friend.
posted by localroger at 3:25 PM on March 29, 2014 [6 favorites]
We are never, ever, ever, going on Art Murders together
posted by The Whelk at 3:28 PM on March 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:28 PM on March 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
Is there is whole web of Fancy Baltimore People Hannibal has befriended and gets favors like this out of?
In Hannibal Harris makes it pretty explicit that this is the case, and that Hannibal's wealth comes mainly from gifts and bequests from grateful patients; apparently when he's not fucking with you for his own amusement, he's a quite good therapist and his patients love him.
posted by localroger at 3:33 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
In Hannibal Harris makes it pretty explicit that this is the case, and that Hannibal's wealth comes mainly from gifts and bequests from grateful patients; apparently when he's not fucking with you for his own amusement, he's a quite good therapist and his patients love him.
posted by localroger at 3:33 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Plus it must amuse him how easy it is to charm and "help" the top of society with almost no effort at all.
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2014
The Whelk: "Great now I'm wondering what his bathroom looks like. "
I'm imagining this.
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2014
I'm imagining this.
posted by Dr. Zira at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2014
Plus it must amuse him how easy it is
Of course. Hannibal solves people the way some people solve a Rubik's Cube. When he finds that you can't make all the colors line up in the right way it's dinner time.
Will is such a challenge for Lecter because while Hannibal had plenty of opportunity to physically kill Will, if he did that he would also be killing Will's potential. Will is an interestingly complex problem for Hannibal because he must disintangle the stag monster within from the puppy dog do-gooder that keeps it sealed in. He knows Will's Rubik Cube can be solved, but the solution will involve many steps and more thought and risk than usual. But it will also be so much more rewarding, because compared to most people Will's Rubik Cube also has five cubes on each edge instead of just three.
posted by localroger at 3:44 PM on March 29, 2014
Of course. Hannibal solves people the way some people solve a Rubik's Cube. When he finds that you can't make all the colors line up in the right way it's dinner time.
Will is such a challenge for Lecter because while Hannibal had plenty of opportunity to physically kill Will, if he did that he would also be killing Will's potential. Will is an interestingly complex problem for Hannibal because he must disintangle the stag monster within from the puppy dog do-gooder that keeps it sealed in. He knows Will's Rubik Cube can be solved, but the solution will involve many steps and more thought and risk than usual. But it will also be so much more rewarding, because compared to most people Will's Rubik Cube also has five cubes on each edge instead of just three.
posted by localroger at 3:44 PM on March 29, 2014
Of course one could make the argument that the stag monster saved Will at the end of season 1, and it's the source of his livelihood at the moment, and he's using it to save lives, so having a stag monster in you isn't necessarily all bad. It's just that Will needs to be careful with it.
Of course it saved him, though -- isn't that why it exists, or at least is as strong/present as it is? To help and protect him? He's built his whole life on exploiting it, that's how he makes his living. Without it, what/where would he be?
His only way of accessing the outside world right now is through the stag, too. Even his ability to get released to see the murder scenes is because of it. And it's what Hannibal and Matt Brown and Gideon "like" about Will, too, isn't it?
The weird thing about "takes one to know one" on this show, though, is that, aside from Will, all the people who recognize that Hannibal is dangerous aren't particularly dangerous themselves, they've just seen or otherwise gotten information about what he can do. But I think the show is playing a "takes one to know one" game when it comes to Will's characterization. I don't know, though -- maybe they're undermining themselves by not paralleling the "takes one to know one" thing with other characters or maybe we're actually not supposed to assume that Will could/will become like Hannibal or...?
I don't mind that Will has inconsistent desires or goals, he's all messed up right now
But if Will has a plan, doesn't that necessitate that he have at least one consistent goal? And he's clearly trying to make people think he has a plan, because he's practically holding up a sign saying "I'm being coy!" with everybody right now. Or maybe he's just pissed off (because jeez he does have reason to be) and this is how Will acts when he's angry. Like I said, I have trouble understanding Will's priorities or what he's feeling at any given time.
And, as, noted, being in BSHCI has not been good for Will. Not only has he had to mostly hide his true thoughts on Hannibal he's being exposed to creeps and psychopaths (Chilton, Gideon) and getting bad ideas. If we here free he probably wouldn't have reached out to this guy to kill Hannibal, he would have just done it himself.
Yeah, I think he would prefer to do it himself, if only for his own sanity. If he watched more supernatural shows he'd probably poison someone he knows Hannibal is going to eat as a way to poison Hannibal. For some reason, though, this show doesn't seem to be that into subterfuge when it comes to violence? I don't understand why not, it seems like it would fit with the aesthetic, but the violence on the show tends to be really overt.
I just can't believe that Will seriously thought the random orderly would be able to do something he couldn't do, with as much knowledge of both serial killers and of Hannibal as he had. He could have at least given the orderly more guidance. You guys don't think he was trying to set up the orderly? Will better hope the FBI thinks the orderly is just nuts because I would think Matt Brown is going to spill the beans on Will siccing him on Hannibal in about ten seconds, if only because Brown seems to have a bit of a crush and he's going to want to brag that Will would trust him like that.
I feel like maybe siccing the orderly on him was sort of a message to Hannibal, but the only reason I can imagine Will wanting to send Hannibal a "back off!" message right now is because Hannibal will respond by getting aggressive -- so maybe it's a way of drawing Hannibal out? I dunno, maybe that's Will's plan, to keep poking at Hannibal until Hannibal risks too much trying to poke back and exposes himself?
Also at first glance I assumed it was Hannibal's pool, too. The bathroom signs suggest it is not but I would have believed he'd have an 8-lane Olympic-sized swimming pool stashed away; it can't be all murder dungeon.
It was some random time and looked like a club pool (rather than a public one), so I figured that the orderly followed Hannibal there, saw he was alone, locked them inside together so other swimmers couldn't come in, and got straight to dart-shooting?
posted by rue72 at 3:52 PM on March 29, 2014
Of course it saved him, though -- isn't that why it exists, or at least is as strong/present as it is? To help and protect him? He's built his whole life on exploiting it, that's how he makes his living. Without it, what/where would he be?
His only way of accessing the outside world right now is through the stag, too. Even his ability to get released to see the murder scenes is because of it. And it's what Hannibal and Matt Brown and Gideon "like" about Will, too, isn't it?
The weird thing about "takes one to know one" on this show, though, is that, aside from Will, all the people who recognize that Hannibal is dangerous aren't particularly dangerous themselves, they've just seen or otherwise gotten information about what he can do. But I think the show is playing a "takes one to know one" game when it comes to Will's characterization. I don't know, though -- maybe they're undermining themselves by not paralleling the "takes one to know one" thing with other characters or maybe we're actually not supposed to assume that Will could/will become like Hannibal or...?
I don't mind that Will has inconsistent desires or goals, he's all messed up right now
But if Will has a plan, doesn't that necessitate that he have at least one consistent goal? And he's clearly trying to make people think he has a plan, because he's practically holding up a sign saying "I'm being coy!" with everybody right now. Or maybe he's just pissed off (because jeez he does have reason to be) and this is how Will acts when he's angry. Like I said, I have trouble understanding Will's priorities or what he's feeling at any given time.
And, as, noted, being in BSHCI has not been good for Will. Not only has he had to mostly hide his true thoughts on Hannibal he's being exposed to creeps and psychopaths (Chilton, Gideon) and getting bad ideas. If we here free he probably wouldn't have reached out to this guy to kill Hannibal, he would have just done it himself.
Yeah, I think he would prefer to do it himself, if only for his own sanity. If he watched more supernatural shows he'd probably poison someone he knows Hannibal is going to eat as a way to poison Hannibal. For some reason, though, this show doesn't seem to be that into subterfuge when it comes to violence? I don't understand why not, it seems like it would fit with the aesthetic, but the violence on the show tends to be really overt.
I just can't believe that Will seriously thought the random orderly would be able to do something he couldn't do, with as much knowledge of both serial killers and of Hannibal as he had. He could have at least given the orderly more guidance. You guys don't think he was trying to set up the orderly? Will better hope the FBI thinks the orderly is just nuts because I would think Matt Brown is going to spill the beans on Will siccing him on Hannibal in about ten seconds, if only because Brown seems to have a bit of a crush and he's going to want to brag that Will would trust him like that.
I feel like maybe siccing the orderly on him was sort of a message to Hannibal, but the only reason I can imagine Will wanting to send Hannibal a "back off!" message right now is because Hannibal will respond by getting aggressive -- so maybe it's a way of drawing Hannibal out? I dunno, maybe that's Will's plan, to keep poking at Hannibal until Hannibal risks too much trying to poke back and exposes himself?
Also at first glance I assumed it was Hannibal's pool, too. The bathroom signs suggest it is not but I would have believed he'd have an 8-lane Olympic-sized swimming pool stashed away; it can't be all murder dungeon.
It was some random time and looked like a club pool (rather than a public one), so I figured that the orderly followed Hannibal there, saw he was alone, locked them inside together so other swimmers couldn't come in, and got straight to dart-shooting?
posted by rue72 at 3:52 PM on March 29, 2014
But I definitely think the show is playing a "takes one to know one" game when it comes to Will's characterization.
Well this was very much a thing in Red Dragon. What undermines it for me is that we started the season with a sneak preview of Jack getting all bullet-time Morpheus with Hannibal, when the Jack of the novels was all about sending minions out to do stuff like that.
posted by localroger at 3:58 PM on March 29, 2014
Well this was very much a thing in Red Dragon. What undermines it for me is that we started the season with a sneak preview of Jack getting all bullet-time Morpheus with Hannibal, when the Jack of the novels was all about sending minions out to do stuff like that.
posted by localroger at 3:58 PM on March 29, 2014
I'm not saying I've now eaten someone responsible for pre-empting last night's Hannibal but I'm not not saying it either.
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on March 29, 2014
I just can't believe that Will seriously thought the random orderly would be able to do something he couldn't do, with as much knowledge of both serial killers and of Hannibal as he had. He could have at least given the orderly more guidance. You guys don't think he was trying to set up the orderly? Will better hope the FBI thinks the orderly is just nuts because I would think Matt Brown is going to spill the beans on Will siccing him on Hannibal in about ten seconds, if only because Brown seems to have a bit of a crush and he's going to want to brag that Will would trust him like that.?
Will is trapped. Backed into a corner. He doesn't have a lot of options and he certainly can't do anything to Hannibal directly. Yes, I really believe Will thought the orderly had a chance. He wasn't a random orderly, he had already shown himself to be a competent killer with the bailiff and the firebomb trap.
Beverly wasn't sent to kill Hannibal, just investigate. Will himself only had a moment in which he knew what Hannibal was and was in a position to take action but Jack shot Will before Will had a chance to act (and only because Will worked it out in Hannibal's presence). Will isn't sending the orderly to do something he couldn't do. Hannibal is a public figure who thinks he's god, he is certainly vulnerable to surprise attacks. And this would have worked if it weren't for Gideon and Alana (and Jack) or if the orderly wasn't so interested in presentation and exploration of victims himself.
And as for the FBI I think Will is going to hope for the exact opposite; the orderly joins Will and Gideon as presumably the only living people that know that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper. Gideon has chosen to keep quiet, Will's gotta be hoping the orderly will talk.
I think the effect of sending the orderly after Hannibal will be as you say, drawing him out (as we see in the episode 6 teaser) but I really think Will's goal was a dead Hannibal (and the subsequent examination of Hannibal's home and discovery of, well, horrors).
posted by mountmccabe at 4:27 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Will is trapped. Backed into a corner. He doesn't have a lot of options and he certainly can't do anything to Hannibal directly. Yes, I really believe Will thought the orderly had a chance. He wasn't a random orderly, he had already shown himself to be a competent killer with the bailiff and the firebomb trap.
Beverly wasn't sent to kill Hannibal, just investigate. Will himself only had a moment in which he knew what Hannibal was and was in a position to take action but Jack shot Will before Will had a chance to act (and only because Will worked it out in Hannibal's presence). Will isn't sending the orderly to do something he couldn't do. Hannibal is a public figure who thinks he's god, he is certainly vulnerable to surprise attacks. And this would have worked if it weren't for Gideon and Alana (and Jack) or if the orderly wasn't so interested in presentation and exploration of victims himself.
And as for the FBI I think Will is going to hope for the exact opposite; the orderly joins Will and Gideon as presumably the only living people that know that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper. Gideon has chosen to keep quiet, Will's gotta be hoping the orderly will talk.
I think the effect of sending the orderly after Hannibal will be as you say, drawing him out (as we see in the episode 6 teaser) but I really think Will's goal was a dead Hannibal (and the subsequent examination of Hannibal's home and discovery of, well, horrors).
posted by mountmccabe at 4:27 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, look, guys, Hannibal just KILLED BEV and will's trying to kill hannibal has the same motivation as when he stormed into the Hobbs house.
It's being brought home to him, as to us, that NOBODY IS SAFE and that he doesn't want alana, jack et al. Killed too. Or anyone really.
In the matter of will's smarm/manipulation - he is using the seducer's mirror on everybody, it is the simplest way to manipulate someone and will come easily to him, so that's what he does. It also suits hin for chilton to think he's a manipulator because chilton fancies himself a great manipulator
Alana is very incisive and correct, this time. For once. Oh alana, so concerned, so worriedabout will and your concern and worry as usual benefit hannibal
"Hannibal has perfected himself" - not quite, still needs a few situps
posted by tel3path at 4:48 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's being brought home to him, as to us, that NOBODY IS SAFE and that he doesn't want alana, jack et al. Killed too. Or anyone really.
In the matter of will's smarm/manipulation - he is using the seducer's mirror on everybody, it is the simplest way to manipulate someone and will come easily to him, so that's what he does. It also suits hin for chilton to think he's a manipulator because chilton fancies himself a great manipulator
Alana is very incisive and correct, this time. For once. Oh alana, so concerned, so worriedabout will and your concern and worry as usual benefit hannibal
"Hannibal has perfected himself" - not quite, still needs a few situps
posted by tel3path at 4:48 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
i like freddie a little more now
She does actually have the capacity to be upset and even to feel sympathy. I did not get the sense that her reaction to Jack was in any way faked or manipulative.
...but here's the question
HOW DID SHE KNOW TO LOOK IN THE OBSERVATORY
Someone must have told her.
SOMEONE MUST HAVE TOLD HER
Anyway, the observatory is where Hannibal displays the bau staff. He is taunting them to fucking observe for a change.
And this about hannibal being so seductive and now we feel bad about the cooking scenes - can't help but wonder if that's what was underlying the fridging outrage was for some people.
posted by tel3path at 4:56 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
She does actually have the capacity to be upset and even to feel sympathy. I did not get the sense that her reaction to Jack was in any way faked or manipulative.
...but here's the question
HOW DID SHE KNOW TO LOOK IN THE OBSERVATORY
Someone must have told her.
SOMEONE MUST HAVE TOLD HER
Anyway, the observatory is where Hannibal displays the bau staff. He is taunting them to fucking observe for a change.
And this about hannibal being so seductive and now we feel bad about the cooking scenes - can't help but wonder if that's what was underlying the fridging outrage was for some people.
posted by tel3path at 4:56 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
Will is really quite badly fucked now
But if he wantedthe. Murder to succeed it's funny that he would have told Alana about it straight out
posted by tel3path at 4:56 PM on March 29, 2014
But if he wantedthe. Murder to succeed it's funny that he would have told Alana about it straight out
posted by tel3path at 4:56 PM on March 29, 2014
I WANT TO KNOW WHO LED FREDDIE TO THE OBSERVATORY
if it was hannibal, she knows it was him.
posted by tel3path at 5:00 PM on March 29, 2014
if it was hannibal, she knows it was him.
posted by tel3path at 5:00 PM on March 29, 2014
Freddie probably got an anonymous tip.
"Hannibal has perfected himself" - not quite, still needs a few situps
Sez you. It's his opinion that matters, just ask him.
Nicely.
posted by localroger at 5:06 PM on March 29, 2014
"Hannibal has perfected himself" - not quite, still needs a few situps
Sez you. It's his opinion that matters, just ask him.
Nicely.
posted by localroger at 5:06 PM on March 29, 2014
Oh you fucking fuck, hannibal
Oh you fucking fuck
For what you did to jack alone this episode, i hate you you fucking fuck
You almost certainly fed something of bev to jack
Or if not her, someone
You fucking killed bev
And you forced jack's emotional dependence on you
You fucking fuck
"i suppose i'm a better friend than a therapist". YOU ARE AN EVEN WORSE FRIEND THAN A THERAPIST, HANNIBAL, AND BOY OH BOY IS THAT NOT SAYING MUCH
Also
Also i forgot what i was about to say. Can someone please help me recover my memory
posted by tel3path at 5:12 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh you fucking fuck
For what you did to jack alone this episode, i hate you you fucking fuck
You almost certainly fed something of bev to jack
Or if not her, someone
You fucking killed bev
And you forced jack's emotional dependence on you
You fucking fuck
"i suppose i'm a better friend than a therapist". YOU ARE AN EVEN WORSE FRIEND THAN A THERAPIST, HANNIBAL, AND BOY OH BOY IS THAT NOT SAYING MUCH
Also
Also i forgot what i was about to say. Can someone please help me recover my memory
posted by tel3path at 5:12 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wow, tel3path, maybe you should get like a smaller TV or something.
posted by localroger at 5:21 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by localroger at 5:21 PM on March 29, 2014
Oh yeah it's that hannibal got rich on bequests from grateful patients.
O rly
You know who else got rich on "bequests" from grateful patients? HAROLD SHIPMAN
posted by tel3path at 5:24 PM on March 29, 2014
O rly
You know who else got rich on "bequests" from grateful patients? HAROLD SHIPMAN
posted by tel3path at 5:24 PM on March 29, 2014
Oh yeah it's that hannibal got rich on bequests from grateful patients.
And he saves a lot on groceries.
posted by jeather at 5:37 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
And he saves a lot on groceries.
posted by jeather at 5:37 PM on March 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
Husband is playing the piano piece from the last episode while I cook, I am giving him so much side eye
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
When Jack is briefing the group, he says Freddie went to the observatory acting on an 'anonymous tip'.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:45 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 5:45 PM on March 29, 2014
O rly
Well take it up with Thomas Harris. I didn't write the damn things, I just read them. He was very clear on this point.
posted by localroger at 5:46 PM on March 29, 2014
Well take it up with Thomas Harris. I didn't write the damn things, I just read them. He was very clear on this point.
posted by localroger at 5:46 PM on March 29, 2014
And he saves a lot on groceries.
Damn straight. I have to eat low carb because of my pre-diabetes, and the price of meat dayum. Maybe I should be watching for pointers.
posted by localroger at 5:48 PM on March 29, 2014
Damn straight. I have to eat low carb because of my pre-diabetes, and the price of meat dayum. Maybe I should be watching for pointers.
posted by localroger at 5:48 PM on March 29, 2014
We are more than a bit concerned with the Benihana egg trick called for in the script. I’ve tried it and can only get it 1 out of 4 tries, and I’ve seen Benihana chefs flub the manoeuver when they have an entire grill as target. Mads has to crack his eggs into a 8-inch diameter skillet. The props Master calls his guy. The Production Manager calls in his guy. I call my guy. On the morning of the shoot we have 8 dozen eggs and 3 Japanese chefs with their hands made up to be hand doubles.From Janice Poon's post for this week. Also:
I guess I don’t have to tell you that when Mads arrives on set, he just tosses an egg up in the air and the egg breaks on the spatula. No problem. Unbelievable. I insist it was a lucky fluke but he does it again. I accuse him of practicing when I wasn’t looking but he laughs (as if he has time to practise egg-cracking between scenes) and tells me he was a juggler in his youth.
G O D D A M M I T, M A D S.
posted by sparkletone at 5:52 PM on March 29, 2014 [11 favorites]
Oh yeah it's that hannibal got rich on bequests from grateful patients.
Named in their wills, I bet? All I have to say about that.
Yeah, look, guys, Hannibal just KILLED BEV and will's trying to kill hannibal has the same motivation as when he stormed into the Hobbs house.
It makes complete sense why Will would want to kill Hannibal and why he would think time is of the essence, I'm just wondering why he would think the orderly had a snowball's chance in hell of actually doing it -- I really think he must have assumed the orderly was going to fail, and I think that must be part of his "design" for taking out Hannibal. Matt Brown has killed some bailiff before, sure, so Will knew he would probably go through with attacking Hannibal (the dude is nothing if not impulsive and violent, seems like) but I think that Will would have had at least enough respect for his own and Beverly's abilities to figure that, considering how easily Hannibal subdued them, the deck was stacked against the orderly for actually coming out on top. Also, if Will were actually trying to get Hannibal killed right then, wouldn't he at least have tried to up the orderly's odds by offering more guidance or help or *something* before sending him off to go toe-to-toe with someone who is so slick he's working with the FBI on his own murders? Will even sort of tried to warn Matt Brown that they weren't truly going to team up, I think, when he was saying that hawks fly alone (but Brown was being a dumbass and didn't listen to the "psycho killer" telling him not to trust him, sigh). I don't think that Will was counting on the orderly succeeding in order to stop Hannibal, because that is just such a risky bet and he did zero things to make it less risky.
If Will's plan is to draw Hannibal out so that he trips himself up, then it would be helpful to Will if the orderly confesses that Will sent him to do it -- but even if the orderly had died in the attack instead, I don't think it would have been difficult for people (or at least Hannibal) to connect the dots back to Will, seeing as Matt Brown is basically Will's personal orderly and the only connection he has with Hannibal is through Will. So I think that probably, the orderly was meant to fail, and Hannibal at least, if not more people, are meant to know that Will sicced somebody on Hannibal -- that it's a message.
The thing is, how is Will possibly going to get out of the hospital or prison if he's got this legit charge of attempted murder against him? Even if the state were to drop every other murder charge, they'll still have this hit on Hannibal against Will. Since Hannibal's most recent murders other than Beverly were to prove Will innocent, maybe Will thinks that if he legit commits crimes and so there's no way to get him out, that Hannibal will stop killing in his name? That Will legit committed a crime in this episode is one reason why I was thinking he was trying to stay imprisoned. (The other reason is that I would personally be wanting to stay behind bars where Hannibal couldn't get at me, if I were Will -- but that's not all that heroic, just (I think) plausibly risk-averse, so maybe that's not a reason the writers would want to give to Will *shrug*). Maybe Will didn't realize that Jack et al would come in and save Hannibal, though, maybe he just figured Hannibal would kill the orderly himself, and the message would stay private between the two of them?
In the matter of will's smarm/manipulation - he is using the seducer's mirror on everybody, it is the simplest way to manipulate someone and will come easily to him, so that's what he does. It also suits hin for chilton to think he's a manipulator because chilton fancies himself a great manipulator
I don't think that reflecting someone's way of interacting back at them (like being direct with a direct person like Beverly) is a manipulation, I think that's usually just good manners. It's just that Will seemed to be so ostentatious about it this episode, that it seemed sarcastic or mocking or something to me, like he was trying to draw attention to it being an artifice. Also, didn't he say something like "you're going to have to figure that out on your own" to Freddie, and highlight for her that he was just being coy? But maybe he wasn't trying to be especially fake, maybe he just happened to be talking to a bunch of jerk offs who act smarmy all the time, and/or maybe he was just a little bitchier than usual because he's pissed off, I don't know.
Regardless, I like pissed off Will. My favorite part of this season is watching the bitterness and hate build up in him as he comes (back) to his senses, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with it. I'm not sure how the stag would fit into that, though?
I guess I don’t have to tell you that when Mads arrives on set, he just tosses an egg up in the air and the egg breaks on the spatula. No problem. Unbelievable. I insist it was a lucky fluke but he does it again. I accuse him of practicing when I wasn’t looking but he laughs (as if he has time to practise egg-cracking between scenes) and tells me he was a juggler in his youth.
I love this story so much.
posted by rue72 at 6:14 PM on March 29, 2014
Named in their wills, I bet? All I have to say about that.
Yeah, look, guys, Hannibal just KILLED BEV and will's trying to kill hannibal has the same motivation as when he stormed into the Hobbs house.
It makes complete sense why Will would want to kill Hannibal and why he would think time is of the essence, I'm just wondering why he would think the orderly had a snowball's chance in hell of actually doing it -- I really think he must have assumed the orderly was going to fail, and I think that must be part of his "design" for taking out Hannibal. Matt Brown has killed some bailiff before, sure, so Will knew he would probably go through with attacking Hannibal (the dude is nothing if not impulsive and violent, seems like) but I think that Will would have had at least enough respect for his own and Beverly's abilities to figure that, considering how easily Hannibal subdued them, the deck was stacked against the orderly for actually coming out on top. Also, if Will were actually trying to get Hannibal killed right then, wouldn't he at least have tried to up the orderly's odds by offering more guidance or help or *something* before sending him off to go toe-to-toe with someone who is so slick he's working with the FBI on his own murders? Will even sort of tried to warn Matt Brown that they weren't truly going to team up, I think, when he was saying that hawks fly alone (but Brown was being a dumbass and didn't listen to the "psycho killer" telling him not to trust him, sigh). I don't think that Will was counting on the orderly succeeding in order to stop Hannibal, because that is just such a risky bet and he did zero things to make it less risky.
If Will's plan is to draw Hannibal out so that he trips himself up, then it would be helpful to Will if the orderly confesses that Will sent him to do it -- but even if the orderly had died in the attack instead, I don't think it would have been difficult for people (or at least Hannibal) to connect the dots back to Will, seeing as Matt Brown is basically Will's personal orderly and the only connection he has with Hannibal is through Will. So I think that probably, the orderly was meant to fail, and Hannibal at least, if not more people, are meant to know that Will sicced somebody on Hannibal -- that it's a message.
The thing is, how is Will possibly going to get out of the hospital or prison if he's got this legit charge of attempted murder against him? Even if the state were to drop every other murder charge, they'll still have this hit on Hannibal against Will. Since Hannibal's most recent murders other than Beverly were to prove Will innocent, maybe Will thinks that if he legit commits crimes and so there's no way to get him out, that Hannibal will stop killing in his name? That Will legit committed a crime in this episode is one reason why I was thinking he was trying to stay imprisoned. (The other reason is that I would personally be wanting to stay behind bars where Hannibal couldn't get at me, if I were Will -- but that's not all that heroic, just (I think) plausibly risk-averse, so maybe that's not a reason the writers would want to give to Will *shrug*). Maybe Will didn't realize that Jack et al would come in and save Hannibal, though, maybe he just figured Hannibal would kill the orderly himself, and the message would stay private between the two of them?
In the matter of will's smarm/manipulation - he is using the seducer's mirror on everybody, it is the simplest way to manipulate someone and will come easily to him, so that's what he does. It also suits hin for chilton to think he's a manipulator because chilton fancies himself a great manipulator
I don't think that reflecting someone's way of interacting back at them (like being direct with a direct person like Beverly) is a manipulation, I think that's usually just good manners. It's just that Will seemed to be so ostentatious about it this episode, that it seemed sarcastic or mocking or something to me, like he was trying to draw attention to it being an artifice. Also, didn't he say something like "you're going to have to figure that out on your own" to Freddie, and highlight for her that he was just being coy? But maybe he wasn't trying to be especially fake, maybe he just happened to be talking to a bunch of jerk offs who act smarmy all the time, and/or maybe he was just a little bitchier than usual because he's pissed off, I don't know.
Regardless, I like pissed off Will. My favorite part of this season is watching the bitterness and hate build up in him as he comes (back) to his senses, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with it. I'm not sure how the stag would fit into that, though?
I guess I don’t have to tell you that when Mads arrives on set, he just tosses an egg up in the air and the egg breaks on the spatula. No problem. Unbelievable. I insist it was a lucky fluke but he does it again. I accuse him of practicing when I wasn’t looking but he laughs (as if he has time to practise egg-cracking between scenes) and tells me he was a juggler in his youth.
I love this story so much.
posted by rue72 at 6:14 PM on March 29, 2014
> the stag-back transformation was based on this vimeo which i HIGHLY recommend everybody see.
Seconded. There's more about it in this previous thread.
posted by homunculus at 6:17 PM on March 29, 2014
Seconded. There's more about it in this previous thread.
posted by homunculus at 6:17 PM on March 29, 2014
Given a few comments I feel its worth reminding people that the only reason "The Orderly" didn't succeed in killing Hannibal was that Gideon warned Alana. We can debate how reasonable it was for Will to expect success on the part of The Orderly, and how that informs his intentions, but Hannibal WAS going to die but Jack's well timed appearance based on Gideon's word to Alana.
Also, was anyone reflexively critical of the writers having Alana freeze up like that when she saw Hannibal strung up and bleeding, only to forcibly remind yourself "he was her mentor, and not used to field work, ext...". I have to go back and rewatch season one AGAIN (maybe sober this time) with an eye toward how Alana handles herself. Maybe my expectations were too high, as opposed to her being weakly written this season.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 7:29 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, was anyone reflexively critical of the writers having Alana freeze up like that when she saw Hannibal strung up and bleeding, only to forcibly remind yourself "he was her mentor, and not used to field work, ext...". I have to go back and rewatch season one AGAIN (maybe sober this time) with an eye toward how Alana handles herself. Maybe my expectations were too high, as opposed to her being weakly written this season.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 7:29 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Did I take a tone just now? I feel like I took a tone. Apologies. I'll just go eat something.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 7:31 PM on March 29, 2014
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 7:31 PM on March 29, 2014
I have to go back and rewatch season one AGAIN (maybe sober this time)
NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
posted by localroger at 7:52 PM on March 29, 2014
NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
posted by localroger at 7:52 PM on March 29, 2014
I recently caught up with this show. It's pretty good.
posted by codacorolla at 8:37 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 8:37 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm with tel3path's Campaign For Real Hannibal, he's at his best when he's the fucking monster vampire murderer we all expect him to be.
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have not seen any personally, but I am seeing mentions of people hating on Alana because A. she's not Beverly who is awesome and B. is apparently dumb because she SHOULD know how evil Hannibal is and she sleeps with him omg hdu. I am doing my best to cause these haters to step on a Lego at three am, using only the power of my mind.
Although I did see one hilarious defense of her, which was, "most of the ladies in the fandom would hit that, and WE KNOW, so shut it."
That said, I think she's been a little absent this season. I remember seeing something Fuller said about how the actress could do so much work in a small amount of time - conveying concern, warmth, involvement - that they could pare back her scenes because the message got transmitted to the audience very succinctly. It seems like she's about to be woven back into the story more strongly (OMG why do I want this it only ups the chances of her being et.)
posted by PussKillian at 10:15 PM on March 29, 2014
Although I did see one hilarious defense of her, which was, "most of the ladies in the fandom would hit that, and WE KNOW, so shut it."
That said, I think she's been a little absent this season. I remember seeing something Fuller said about how the actress could do so much work in a small amount of time - conveying concern, warmth, involvement - that they could pare back her scenes because the message got transmitted to the audience very succinctly. It seems like she's about to be woven back into the story more strongly (OMG why do I want this it only ups the chances of her being et.)
posted by PussKillian at 10:15 PM on March 29, 2014
Localroger, i believe you, I just don't believe Hannibal.
That Harris guy sure was gullible if you ask me...
posted by tel3path at 10:23 PM on March 29, 2014
That Harris guy sure was gullible if you ask me...
posted by tel3path at 10:23 PM on March 29, 2014
I feel like Alana could vanish tomorrow, like go a cruise around the world and end up on some tropical beach happy and far away from everything and sill news would reach her and DESTROY HER LIFE. No matter what happens, we're set for MAXIMUM ALANA SADNESS, at this point we're just figuring out how awful she feels at the end.
posted by The Whelk at 10:33 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:33 PM on March 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Legit Republic, that's a good idea, go eat someone.
Something, I mean. Something.
posted by tel3path at 11:26 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Something, I mean. Something.
posted by tel3path at 11:26 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well anybody would be upset at the sight of someone they were attached to in a scene like that. Law enforcement or not. Or are you getting at something else?
I think Jack and Alana see two different things cause Jack arrives first? Jack sees Hannibal crucified, and Alana sees him strung up with Jack supporting him?
posted by tel3path at 11:32 PM on March 29, 2014
I think Jack and Alana see two different things cause Jack arrives first? Jack sees Hannibal crucified, and Alana sees him strung up with Jack supporting him?
posted by tel3path at 11:32 PM on March 29, 2014
Given a few comments I feel its worth reminding people that the only reason "The Orderly" didn't succeed in killing Hannibal was that Gideon warned Alana. We can debate how reasonable it was for Will to expect success on the part of The Orderly, and how that informs his intentions, but Hannibal WAS going to die but Jack's well timed appearance based on Gideon's word to Alana.
Thinking about it more, you're probably right. It just boggled my mind that Will would wait until they'd left the area where they weren't wired for sound and gotten right up to that asshole Gideon's cell door before asking for the "favor," but Will was also going into full-body-hallucination mode pretty soon after, so I'm probably underestimating how desperate Will felt and overestimating how clearly he was thinking. Also, maybe I didn't understand properly and the orderly had shut off all the wires, not just the ones in the room with the tiny cages, so it wasn't recorded anyway? And to his credit, Will whispered that he wanted Hannibal dead like it was a wish, he wasn't casually and confidently ordering the hit in a Tony Montoya impersonation or anything.
Plus, maybe Will doesn't care that much about his own personal safety? I tend to think that *of course* anybody in a situation as frightening as Will's would have contingency plans for his contingency plans, if only to feel some control over things, but that's not actually how Will does things much. Or how any of the characters do things much. They seem to barely have a Plan A most of the time. I need to remember that and stop assuming that they're taking any extra measures to make sure they're safe. I mean, when Jack and Alana found Hannibal, Alana didn't even go over to get the noose off Hannibal's head, she just left old Jack there holding this gigantic semi-conscious man while standing on a wet floor next to a still-alive murderer and two guns -- the many, many ways *that* could go wrong! But it won't, on this show. Which isn't even a bad thing, the show likely feels so nightmarish because everything is always on the edge of spiraling out into chaos, it's just that I keep forgetting that's how they do.
posted by rue72 at 11:34 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Thinking about it more, you're probably right. It just boggled my mind that Will would wait until they'd left the area where they weren't wired for sound and gotten right up to that asshole Gideon's cell door before asking for the "favor," but Will was also going into full-body-hallucination mode pretty soon after, so I'm probably underestimating how desperate Will felt and overestimating how clearly he was thinking. Also, maybe I didn't understand properly and the orderly had shut off all the wires, not just the ones in the room with the tiny cages, so it wasn't recorded anyway? And to his credit, Will whispered that he wanted Hannibal dead like it was a wish, he wasn't casually and confidently ordering the hit in a Tony Montoya impersonation or anything.
Plus, maybe Will doesn't care that much about his own personal safety? I tend to think that *of course* anybody in a situation as frightening as Will's would have contingency plans for his contingency plans, if only to feel some control over things, but that's not actually how Will does things much. Or how any of the characters do things much. They seem to barely have a Plan A most of the time. I need to remember that and stop assuming that they're taking any extra measures to make sure they're safe. I mean, when Jack and Alana found Hannibal, Alana didn't even go over to get the noose off Hannibal's head, she just left old Jack there holding this gigantic semi-conscious man while standing on a wet floor next to a still-alive murderer and two guns -- the many, many ways *that* could go wrong! But it won't, on this show. Which isn't even a bad thing, the show likely feels so nightmarish because everything is always on the edge of spiraling out into chaos, it's just that I keep forgetting that's how they do.
posted by rue72 at 11:34 PM on March 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
So, Gideon can accuse Lecter but won't, and says things in support of will which must be discounted cos Gideon is a psychopathic murderer
Matthew Brown will say Will put him up to it but it won't be discounted because Will said it himself.
Nobody believes anything Will says because he's either a psychopathic murderer or insane
So now, Will is screwed, etc etc, even more so
In particular Gideon tells Alana that Will killed Gideon because Gideon was trying to kill her (Iirc) and that some unnamed person put him up to killing her. "Who gave you my address?"
Oh silly question Alana, Will did, he's the only one who knows your address!!! It could only have been him!!!
So that settles it, Will put Gideon up to killing Alana so he could kill Gideon. Yes, yes, it all makes sense now.
posted by tel3path at 11:41 PM on March 29, 2014
Matthew Brown will say Will put him up to it but it won't be discounted because Will said it himself.
Nobody believes anything Will says because he's either a psychopathic murderer or insane
So now, Will is screwed, etc etc, even more so
In particular Gideon tells Alana that Will killed Gideon because Gideon was trying to kill her (Iirc) and that some unnamed person put him up to killing her. "Who gave you my address?"
Oh silly question Alana, Will did, he's the only one who knows your address!!! It could only have been him!!!
So that settles it, Will put Gideon up to killing Alana so he could kill Gideon. Yes, yes, it all makes sense now.
posted by tel3path at 11:41 PM on March 29, 2014
You know what
Maybe Will thought as you did rue72, that the cells would be wired for sound, and he was counting on being heard?
You see, he told Alana. HE TOLD HER
Why do that if you want to succeed?
posted by tel3path at 11:49 PM on March 29, 2014
Maybe Will thought as you did rue72, that the cells would be wired for sound, and he was counting on being heard?
You see, he told Alana. HE TOLD HER
Why do that if you want to succeed?
posted by tel3path at 11:49 PM on March 29, 2014
Also, Bevs killer knew bev and stole the Muralist's kidneys
Who knew Bev and had access to the Muralist's kidneys?
OMG it must have been the science bros! they know how to slice-dissect her too!
The fiends!!!!!!!!!!
Oh no wait, nobody asked this question did they? Course not. They'll just blub about Bev for a while and then forget about it
posted by tel3path at 12:02 AM on March 30, 2014
Who knew Bev and had access to the Muralist's kidneys?
OMG it must have been the science bros! they know how to slice-dissect her too!
The fiends!!!!!!!!!!
Oh no wait, nobody asked this question did they? Course not. They'll just blub about Bev for a while and then forget about it
posted by tel3path at 12:02 AM on March 30, 2014
You almost certainly fed something of bev to jack
The structure of the episode seems to allude to him not doing that. He only took her liver and we see him preparing her liver later in the episode. The breakfast he makes for Jack had bacon, but I don't think you can make human flesh look like bacon.
posted by crossoverman at 12:40 AM on March 30, 2014
The structure of the episode seems to allude to him not doing that. He only took her liver and we see him preparing her liver later in the episode. The breakfast he makes for Jack had bacon, but I don't think you can make human flesh look like bacon.
posted by crossoverman at 12:40 AM on March 30, 2014
Maybe Will thought as you did rue72, that the cells would be wired for sound, and he was counting on being heard?
You see, he told Alana. HE TOLD HER
Why do that if you want to succeed?
You know, I just don't know! So many things are ambiguous: did Will whisper because he didn't want Gideon or any wires pick anything up, or did he wait until he got to the cell so that Gideon and the wires could pick up that he wanted Hannibal dead? Did Will say "I want Hannibal Lector dead" instead of giving an actual order or request because he was trying for plausible deniability or because ordering a murder is so horrifying to him that that's as direct as he could bring himself to be? Earlier, Will was talking to Freddie about wanting to get a message out (to Hannibal) -- how serious was he about that and what kind of message did he mean? How did it effect his communication with Alana that he might have figured on Brown listening in on that conversation, too?
If I were Will, I'd be trying to get away from Matthew Brown anyway just because I'd be terrified of him. Even forget Hannibal (and Gideon) for a second. The only "guard" in this area of the BSHCI is apparently a serial killer aspirant, and he's got access to a weird cage room where he's got control of the security and surveillance? If I were Will, I'd be thinking "not going to end well," and trying to get Brown out ASAP. So in that light (and especially if Will didn't have a way of communicating without Brown looking on and listening in at that time, which I don't think he did) I can see why Will would maybe want to send Brown over to Hannibal on the chance that it gets *Brown* killed, too, or at least taken out of BSHCI. I mean, sending a serial killer to kill a serial killer is a kind of heads-I-win-tails-you-lose situation, right?
How I would *guess* things went down, as of this point, is that Will was originally thinking he'd lure Hannibal to him or into a trap through that message via Freddie (and I guess via Chilton, though I zone out whenever he comes on screen, probably because I don't know/remember the backstory to him so he just seems very random to me), but when Will got acquainted with Brown's scary self, he saw an opportunity to play Brown and Hannibal against each other so that there would hopefully be at least one serial killer he'd no longer have to deal with. I still think his best case might have been for Hannibal to kill Brown, since that would have made BSHCI a safe place for Will (no Brown to get to him inside, still no way for Hannibal to get to him from outside), plus an attempted murder would be a much more powerful message to Hannibal than anything he could send through Freddie's site so it would further Will's "plan" (?) to take down Hannibal, and Hannibal would have just put Brown's body through the meat grinder like all the others, so it wouldn't have resulted in more criminal charges for Will. But I do think that Will couldn't count on that scenario happening, because Hannibal isn't actually a god and left to his own devices Brown had a fair shot at killing him. However, maybe the scenario of Brown killing Hannibal, while it wouldn't have been a disaster, wasn't getting Will all that excited, either, because that would still have left Brown hanging around at BSHCI, which is scary as hell, plus then Will wouldn't have had the opportunity to take out Hannibal himself, which he'd told Gideon he wanted. So maybe Will decided to hedge his bets a little against the scenario of Brown-kills-Hannibal, even if that meant making Hannibal-kills-Brown even less probable, so Will decided to tell Brown he "wanted Hannibal Lector dead" in a place where he'd be overheard and to sort of tip off Alana (so there was a shot "the cavalry" would rush in, and the scales were tipped at least slightly more toward Hannibal surviving). As things turned out, I think that Will is at least somewhat better off, because even though neither Hannibal nor Brown got killed, Hannibal did get the message/death threat that Will was sending, and Will does still have a shot at doing him in himself, and Brown is out of the BSHCI for the foreseeable, and the state will maybe have something of a case against Will for attempted murder but it'll hinge on Will's whisper of "I want Hannibal Lector dead," which isn't all *that* damning, and for all I know, Will would prefer to stay at BSHCI anyway.
But who knows what was going on with Will, he always seems roughly the same amount of tense and shaky to me, I can never tell what he's up to. He could very well have just been setting up the Hannibal lure via Freddie/Chilton and then impulsively decided that he wanted violent Matthew Brown to take out Hannibal right then and just blabbed that to Brown wherever he was when the impulse struck him (forgetting all about who might hear or what they might hear), and then began a hallucinatory freak out that resulted in him semi-spilling the beans to Alana. To be honest, I think that's very likely what we're meant to think happened, because like I said, this show likes to keep everything on the edge of chaos and this bunch of characters aren't very into planning.
posted by rue72 at 2:08 AM on March 30, 2014
You see, he told Alana. HE TOLD HER
Why do that if you want to succeed?
You know, I just don't know! So many things are ambiguous: did Will whisper because he didn't want Gideon or any wires pick anything up, or did he wait until he got to the cell so that Gideon and the wires could pick up that he wanted Hannibal dead? Did Will say "I want Hannibal Lector dead" instead of giving an actual order or request because he was trying for plausible deniability or because ordering a murder is so horrifying to him that that's as direct as he could bring himself to be? Earlier, Will was talking to Freddie about wanting to get a message out (to Hannibal) -- how serious was he about that and what kind of message did he mean? How did it effect his communication with Alana that he might have figured on Brown listening in on that conversation, too?
If I were Will, I'd be trying to get away from Matthew Brown anyway just because I'd be terrified of him. Even forget Hannibal (and Gideon) for a second. The only "guard" in this area of the BSHCI is apparently a serial killer aspirant, and he's got access to a weird cage room where he's got control of the security and surveillance? If I were Will, I'd be thinking "not going to end well," and trying to get Brown out ASAP. So in that light (and especially if Will didn't have a way of communicating without Brown looking on and listening in at that time, which I don't think he did) I can see why Will would maybe want to send Brown over to Hannibal on the chance that it gets *Brown* killed, too, or at least taken out of BSHCI. I mean, sending a serial killer to kill a serial killer is a kind of heads-I-win-tails-you-lose situation, right?
How I would *guess* things went down, as of this point, is that Will was originally thinking he'd lure Hannibal to him or into a trap through that message via Freddie (and I guess via Chilton, though I zone out whenever he comes on screen, probably because I don't know/remember the backstory to him so he just seems very random to me), but when Will got acquainted with Brown's scary self, he saw an opportunity to play Brown and Hannibal against each other so that there would hopefully be at least one serial killer he'd no longer have to deal with. I still think his best case might have been for Hannibal to kill Brown, since that would have made BSHCI a safe place for Will (no Brown to get to him inside, still no way for Hannibal to get to him from outside), plus an attempted murder would be a much more powerful message to Hannibal than anything he could send through Freddie's site so it would further Will's "plan" (?) to take down Hannibal, and Hannibal would have just put Brown's body through the meat grinder like all the others, so it wouldn't have resulted in more criminal charges for Will. But I do think that Will couldn't count on that scenario happening, because Hannibal isn't actually a god and left to his own devices Brown had a fair shot at killing him. However, maybe the scenario of Brown killing Hannibal, while it wouldn't have been a disaster, wasn't getting Will all that excited, either, because that would still have left Brown hanging around at BSHCI, which is scary as hell, plus then Will wouldn't have had the opportunity to take out Hannibal himself, which he'd told Gideon he wanted. So maybe Will decided to hedge his bets a little against the scenario of Brown-kills-Hannibal, even if that meant making Hannibal-kills-Brown even less probable, so Will decided to tell Brown he "wanted Hannibal Lector dead" in a place where he'd be overheard and to sort of tip off Alana (so there was a shot "the cavalry" would rush in, and the scales were tipped at least slightly more toward Hannibal surviving). As things turned out, I think that Will is at least somewhat better off, because even though neither Hannibal nor Brown got killed, Hannibal did get the message/death threat that Will was sending, and Will does still have a shot at doing him in himself, and Brown is out of the BSHCI for the foreseeable, and the state will maybe have something of a case against Will for attempted murder but it'll hinge on Will's whisper of "I want Hannibal Lector dead," which isn't all *that* damning, and for all I know, Will would prefer to stay at BSHCI anyway.
But who knows what was going on with Will, he always seems roughly the same amount of tense and shaky to me, I can never tell what he's up to. He could very well have just been setting up the Hannibal lure via Freddie/Chilton and then impulsively decided that he wanted violent Matthew Brown to take out Hannibal right then and just blabbed that to Brown wherever he was when the impulse struck him (forgetting all about who might hear or what they might hear), and then began a hallucinatory freak out that resulted in him semi-spilling the beans to Alana. To be honest, I think that's very likely what we're meant to think happened, because like I said, this show likes to keep everything on the edge of chaos and this bunch of characters aren't very into planning.
posted by rue72 at 2:08 AM on March 30, 2014
In the AV Club walkthrough for the week Fuller talks about how the orderly bit came about. At first it was just someone outside and there was an elaborate set up with Will communicating through the orderly. But explaining the convoluted game of telephone took over the episode so they cut out the middle man. Or made the middle man the cutter. Whatever.
They point is Will's motivations would have been largely the same if the admirer had been right there or more difficult to reach.
Also I don't think phrasing is going to get Will off an attempted murder charge. Will was desperate and values stopping Hannibal over his own well being. Though if Hannibal died it seriously helps Will. And there's no more killing/eating of his colleagues.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:30 AM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
They point is Will's motivations would have been largely the same if the admirer had been right there or more difficult to reach.
Also I don't think phrasing is going to get Will off an attempted murder charge. Will was desperate and values stopping Hannibal over his own well being. Though if Hannibal died it seriously helps Will. And there's no more killing/eating of his colleagues.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:30 AM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think we're meant to be confused about what Will's game is.
posted by tel3path at 6:26 AM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 6:26 AM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Hey guys, can I get links to your fave tumblrs and sites about Hannibal. Especially looking for gifs, fanart, and humour.
posted by Partario at 8:48 AM on March 30, 2014
posted by Partario at 8:48 AM on March 30, 2014
Who knew Bev and had access to the Muralist's kidneys?
The Muralist was missing at least one kidney, so the Sassy Science Bros are off the hook here somewhat.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:06 AM on March 30, 2014
The Muralist was missing at least one kidney, so the Sassy Science Bros are off the hook here somewhat.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:06 AM on March 30, 2014
Partario: Bone Areas Of My Skull is my go-to tumblr, plus A Matter Of Taste for the podcast, The Cannibal Concierge is really popular, plus all of Cleolinda's re-caps on Live journal (yes that's still a thing)...actual fanart-focused I'm not too familar with but a lot of stuff comes from Hannigram if you don't mind coming across slash art about TOUCHINGS. Tattle-crime.tumblr.com is the unoffical megaphone of the fandom.
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on March 30, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on March 30, 2014
Tarnation, of course. The Muralist arrived at the morgue sans kidneys. My mistake.
OH GOD HOW MUCH MORE DAMAGE CAN HANNIBAL DO.
posted by tel3path at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2014
OH GOD HOW MUCH MORE DAMAGE CAN HANNIBAL DO.
posted by tel3path at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2014
Was it just me, or did Hannibal's display of Bev seem almost like a compliment...
posted by tel3path at 11:34 AM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 11:34 AM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
It was so much murder wizard effort. I think it's actually a little affectionate in his horrible way.
posted by The Whelk at 11:37 AM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 11:37 AM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I know what it is.
Alana is, however unwittingly, Hannibal's ears, as Chilton is Hannibal's eyes. Will tells Alana, Alana will tell Hannibal, Hannibal is basically the only person with sufficient Mephistophelean power to get him out of jail.
Hannibal goes, OMG he tried to kill me, great minds think alike, he does have potential to be my murder husband after all, we shall hold the wedding list to three hundred cos he's not good with crowds.
Won't matter what anyone else thinks cos Hannibal controls events and Lounds controls public perception of events so one way or another they can work out the details.
Will is gonna get sprung from prison as though from a trebuchet and he can really get down to business pitching the fake woo. Hannibal will get all emotional, screw up, and it'll be the end of the life he currently knows.
[I like to think Alana points the gun cos she's mad he was cheating with Will all this time, but I know when I'm reaching.]
Also we were right about the murder tie. Hannibal probably did do the judge. Postmortem surgery? Probably didn't have time to deal with all the blood.
posted by tel3path at 11:47 AM on March 30, 2014
Alana is, however unwittingly, Hannibal's ears, as Chilton is Hannibal's eyes. Will tells Alana, Alana will tell Hannibal, Hannibal is basically the only person with sufficient Mephistophelean power to get him out of jail.
Hannibal goes, OMG he tried to kill me, great minds think alike, he does have potential to be my murder husband after all, we shall hold the wedding list to three hundred cos he's not good with crowds.
Won't matter what anyone else thinks cos Hannibal controls events and Lounds controls public perception of events so one way or another they can work out the details.
Will is gonna get sprung from prison as though from a trebuchet and he can really get down to business pitching the fake woo. Hannibal will get all emotional, screw up, and it'll be the end of the life he currently knows.
[I like to think Alana points the gun cos she's mad he was cheating with Will all this time, but I know when I'm reaching.]
Also we were right about the murder tie. Hannibal probably did do the judge. Postmortem surgery? Probably didn't have time to deal with all the blood.
posted by tel3path at 11:47 AM on March 30, 2014
.....wouldn't it be perfectly ironic and symmetrical if Hannibal framed the orderly for all of his/Will's crimes?
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 PM on March 30, 2014
Yes it would, Whelk. And not even that much of a miscarriage of justice. The orderly has killed before and plans to fit some more killing into tomorrow's schedule, so if a few of the murders get temporarily misattributed, then oh, well.
So here is how Will gets enough apparent blood on his hands to pass the test required to get us our fake Hannigram.
posted by tel3path at 12:28 PM on March 30, 2014
So here is how Will gets enough apparent blood on his hands to pass the test required to get us our fake Hannigram.
posted by tel3path at 12:28 PM on March 30, 2014
"Maybe your crimes will become my crimes."
Oh honey no you just gave him the idea.
we have suffered LONG AND HARD for this decoy ship.
(re-reading the threads before Season two, I'm amazed how right we where about the plot but how off we where for the timing and pace. I wasn't expecting Will to go to his BLACK STAG place just yet)
posted by The Whelk at 12:32 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh honey no you just gave him the idea.
we have suffered LONG AND HARD for this decoy ship.
(re-reading the threads before Season two, I'm amazed how right we where about the plot but how off we where for the timing and pace. I wasn't expecting Will to go to his BLACK STAG place just yet)
posted by The Whelk at 12:32 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Was it just me, or did Hannibal's display of Bev seem almost like a compliment...
I watched episode 4 before the west coast feed and my sense is that Bev was marked for dead before she went into that basement. In the scene where Bev & Hannibal are examining Gray's body she is overtly confrontational (every time she tilts her head to the side you can pretty much add "...Bitch!" to whatever sentence she is saying). I think that Hannibal admires her intellect and her loyalty to Will even while he's deciding that Bev needs to be taken out. Given the multiple humiliating ways that Hannibal has presented his previous kills, there is a quality of admiration to the way he's displayed Beverly, as if her were telling the world that she was a prime specimen of the kind of opponent he deems worthy.
posted by echolalia67 at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I watched episode 4 before the west coast feed and my sense is that Bev was marked for dead before she went into that basement. In the scene where Bev & Hannibal are examining Gray's body she is overtly confrontational (every time she tilts her head to the side you can pretty much add "...Bitch!" to whatever sentence she is saying). I think that Hannibal admires her intellect and her loyalty to Will even while he's deciding that Bev needs to be taken out. Given the multiple humiliating ways that Hannibal has presented his previous kills, there is a quality of admiration to the way he's displayed Beverly, as if her were telling the world that she was a prime specimen of the kind of opponent he deems worthy.
posted by echolalia67 at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
You see Alana definitely wants to find he truth, but she stops when she finds a version of the truth that allows her to think the best of everyone, or perhaps to keep things in their place with not too much disruption of (her) reality. In s1 she is so optimistic (in denial) that Will can get out soon and all can go back to the way it was - with Will free, but also presumed crazy. Her mood while she's put there running the dogs is so totally dissonant with what is really happening. I come back again and again to her ignoring the tomato roses - it would be too disruptive to acknowledge, so she deflects.
Bev was truth itself. "I didn't want to find any evidence on you." You could say she was expressing disappointment that he didn't hide it better, if only for the purposes of deception. Superficially. But mainly she's expressing disappointment at the truth she found. Bev sought the truth even if she might not like it when she found it.
But mostly the flaws in all these characters are so HUMAN. We're ALL this weak. We're ALL this blind. Even overtly evil characters like Chilton... you could say it would even be worse if he'd grassed Hannibal up for something he himself was guilty of (bear in mind he thought Hannibal had made a patient kill, not that Hannibal himself had killed).
I'm imagining God looking at humanity and wincing at just how WRONG we are and how SAD it's going to make us and I never really understood that until now.
posted by tel3path at 1:24 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Bev was truth itself. "I didn't want to find any evidence on you." You could say she was expressing disappointment that he didn't hide it better, if only for the purposes of deception. Superficially. But mainly she's expressing disappointment at the truth she found. Bev sought the truth even if she might not like it when she found it.
But mostly the flaws in all these characters are so HUMAN. We're ALL this weak. We're ALL this blind. Even overtly evil characters like Chilton... you could say it would even be worse if he'd grassed Hannibal up for something he himself was guilty of (bear in mind he thought Hannibal had made a patient kill, not that Hannibal himself had killed).
I'm imagining God looking at humanity and wincing at just how WRONG we are and how SAD it's going to make us and I never really understood that until now.
posted by tel3path at 1:24 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I guess if i said Hannibal made Bev look like she should be on the cover of Vogue Meurtre that would just prove the point for some people...
I was also thinking about how very low expectations have gotten. At first, they expected Will to solve the Shrike murders and he exceeded all expectations.
Now, we have two Rippers ripping, n cats copying, one fan ear! And nobody seems like stopping that is even particularly on the agenda. (To their credit, it's partly because they're obsessed with solving Will one way or another; they could have just all said to hell with him.) Will goes to Hannibal for help with his - innate! Inherent! "Instability" and craziness and he gets nothing and he actually gets worse and nobody ever notices enough to offer him meaningful support and nobody notices that Hannibal IS NOT HELPING because they have low expectations of a "crazy" person and no expectations of Hannibal - he's a genius, but doesn't actually have to help anyone to demonstrate that. He says "no one has died as a result of my therapy" (hmmm) but if that's true, it's because the therapy itself doesn't actually do anything. Mrs Lass says that living with mental illness is about adjusting expectations but she's been trying so hard for so long her expectations have been beat down to nothing. It's Will who has the expectations, Will who pushes the limits - and, tellingly, Jack who allows himself to be persuaded to not stop him because while Jack is merciless, the flip side of that is that he actually *does* have high expectations and may be the only character left now who does. Unfortunately his expectations often take the form of expecting a dead horse to get up and run if he just flogs it hard enough. No doctor is going to cure Bella's cancer, and there's no realistic place even for pain management, so Bella reaches for the one hopeful act she perceives to be available to her in the given circumstances - suicide - and Hannibal plucks that last feather of hope from her fingers, and all for indifferent reasons.
I think what i'm trying to say is, HANNIBAL YOU LITTLE SHIT
posted by tel3path at 1:55 PM on March 30, 2014
I was also thinking about how very low expectations have gotten. At first, they expected Will to solve the Shrike murders and he exceeded all expectations.
Now, we have two Rippers ripping, n cats copying, one fan ear! And nobody seems like stopping that is even particularly on the agenda. (To their credit, it's partly because they're obsessed with solving Will one way or another; they could have just all said to hell with him.) Will goes to Hannibal for help with his - innate! Inherent! "Instability" and craziness and he gets nothing and he actually gets worse and nobody ever notices enough to offer him meaningful support and nobody notices that Hannibal IS NOT HELPING because they have low expectations of a "crazy" person and no expectations of Hannibal - he's a genius, but doesn't actually have to help anyone to demonstrate that. He says "no one has died as a result of my therapy" (hmmm) but if that's true, it's because the therapy itself doesn't actually do anything. Mrs Lass says that living with mental illness is about adjusting expectations but she's been trying so hard for so long her expectations have been beat down to nothing. It's Will who has the expectations, Will who pushes the limits - and, tellingly, Jack who allows himself to be persuaded to not stop him because while Jack is merciless, the flip side of that is that he actually *does* have high expectations and may be the only character left now who does. Unfortunately his expectations often take the form of expecting a dead horse to get up and run if he just flogs it hard enough. No doctor is going to cure Bella's cancer, and there's no realistic place even for pain management, so Bella reaches for the one hopeful act she perceives to be available to her in the given circumstances - suicide - and Hannibal plucks that last feather of hope from her fingers, and all for indifferent reasons.
I think what i'm trying to say is, HANNIBAL YOU LITTLE SHIT
posted by tel3path at 1:55 PM on March 30, 2014
Can we talk about who killed the judge in episode three? Because the orderly specifically says he killed the bailiff, not the judge.
posted by crossoverman at 2:20 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by crossoverman at 2:20 PM on March 30, 2014
The hearts and brains of Justice display is a pretty strong hint that Hannibal did the judge. There's nobody else running around free with either the surgical skill or the interest in Will to be able and motivated to pull it off.
posted by localroger at 2:23 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by localroger at 2:23 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Did he take a trophy from the judge?
posted by crossoverman at 2:57 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by crossoverman at 2:57 PM on March 30, 2014
I wonder if Alana will realize something's up by looking at little objects and figurines around hannibal's house and having sudden insights? As if the tchotchkes are metaphorically "speaking" to her?
Or perhaps she will hallucinate that objects are speaking to her and this is how she will realize she is being mind-controlled (through drugs etc)
At first she will think she is going crazy and firmly stamp on any suggestion of unreality.
By the time she realizes the "messages" have any basis in reality, it will be too late...
posted by tel3path at 3:04 PM on March 30, 2014
Or perhaps she will hallucinate that objects are speaking to her and this is how she will realize she is being mind-controlled (through drugs etc)
At first she will think she is going crazy and firmly stamp on any suggestion of unreality.
By the time she realizes the "messages" have any basis in reality, it will be too late...
posted by tel3path at 3:04 PM on March 30, 2014
BUT ON A LIGHTER NOTE I have my copy of Nylon, I have my italian vogue.
Tomorrow's Murder Outfit [1] consists of deep indigo kick-flared jeans with a mid brown leather belt embossed with tan flowers, a black and white damask-print top, a purple velvet blazer, aqua green woven pumps worn with fishnet socks, a black embroidered chinese silk neck purse, a string of freshwater pearls, a silver gothic cross ring, a black patent murder handbag, and a black Borsalino.
[1] Murder not included. Terms and conditions apply.
posted by tel3path at 3:09 PM on March 30, 2014
Tomorrow's Murder Outfit [1] consists of deep indigo kick-flared jeans with a mid brown leather belt embossed with tan flowers, a black and white damask-print top, a purple velvet blazer, aqua green woven pumps worn with fishnet socks, a black embroidered chinese silk neck purse, a string of freshwater pearls, a silver gothic cross ring, a black patent murder handbag, and a black Borsalino.
[1] Murder not included. Terms and conditions apply.
posted by tel3path at 3:09 PM on March 30, 2014
I think he might not have taken a trophy from the judge, if only because he left them at the scene. It may be tricky, even for Hannibal, to walk out of a courthouse with a body part or two in his pocket.
In a way, he didn't "take" a trophy from Bev without restoring the same to her - he gave her the Muralist's kidneys, which she had earned.
posted by tel3path at 3:11 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
In a way, he didn't "take" a trophy from Bev without restoring the same to her - he gave her the Muralist's kidneys, which she had earned.
posted by tel3path at 3:11 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
As if the tchotchkes are metaphorically "speaking" to her?
Now I want the raven stag figurine to have a thick Boston accent.
posted by The Whelk at 3:13 PM on March 30, 2014
Now I want the raven stag figurine to have a thick Boston accent.
posted by The Whelk at 3:13 PM on March 30, 2014
Yeah, the Chesepeake murders all have an element of humiliation, a sustained tone of "look at this asshole." . Bev's display was pretty neutral, almost a little commentary.
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
In a way, he didn't "take" a trophy from Bev without restoring the same to her - he gave her the Muralist's kidneys, which she had earned.
But he did take the muralist's leg and Bev's kidney, so he definitely took a trophy from each of them. The judge would be unique, if he didn't take a trophy from him.
posted by crossoverman at 3:47 PM on March 30, 2014
But he did take the muralist's leg and Bev's kidney, so he definitely took a trophy from each of them. The judge would be unique, if he didn't take a trophy from him.
posted by crossoverman at 3:47 PM on March 30, 2014
If justice is heartless and brainless could it also be ...spineless?
posted by The Whelk at 4:51 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 4:51 PM on March 30, 2014
The thing that struck me about Bev's display was the way he separated the arm, like a Barbie arm that had been taken out of its socket.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2014
Rewatching S2E3 and as they look over the judge tableaux...
--He was shot in the chest just like the bailiff. Can't see the entry wound because he removed the heart
--but there is an exit wound. No slug -- must've taken it with him.
Hannibal: A TROPHY.
So there was a trophy taken from the judge's murder. Hannibal said so himself.
posted by localroger at 5:01 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
--He was shot in the chest just like the bailiff. Can't see the entry wound because he removed the heart
--but there is an exit wound. No slug -- must've taken it with him.
Hannibal: A TROPHY.
So there was a trophy taken from the judge's murder. Hannibal said so himself.
posted by localroger at 5:01 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
"do you guys like my new ring it's made from old bullet shells what?"
posted by The Whelk at 5:11 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 5:11 PM on March 30, 2014
BBC America is showing Red Dragon right now, which is a bit disconcerting having just returned from seeing three of these same actors in Grand Budapest Hotel.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:16 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:16 PM on March 30, 2014
Red Dragon is so boring. I actually did write that thing about directing styles I threatened to write oh those many threads ago about it but it's not coming out for another few months.
Seriously it's like Ratner never did more than one take. The entire movie ( with the exception of Finnes and ..who played Reba? Who seem to be in a totally different movie.) is like the dictionary definition of phoned in.
posted by The Whelk at 5:27 PM on March 30, 2014
Seriously it's like Ratner never did more than one take. The entire movie ( with the exception of Finnes and ..who played Reba? Who seem to be in a totally different movie.) is like the dictionary definition of phoned in.
posted by The Whelk at 5:27 PM on March 30, 2014
The best moments in the movie are definitely the scenes between Ralph Fiennes and Emily Watson, although PSJ was a good Freddy Lounds.
But yeah, it's like you can hear a giant cash register in the background.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:40 PM on March 30, 2014
But yeah, it's like you can hear a giant cash register in the background.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:40 PM on March 30, 2014
I almost watched that showing of Red Dragon, but I didn't want it influencing my memories of Manhunter.
posted by codacorolla at 5:52 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by codacorolla at 5:52 PM on March 30, 2014
I didn't want it influencing my memories of Manhunter
There's not much danger of that. Manhunter stood on its own, with Brain Cox giving a much different take on Lecter than Anthony Hopkins'. And half the material in the Red Dragon movie was actually extrapolated from things in SOTL and Hannibal which hadn't been written when Manhunter was made.
posted by localroger at 5:56 PM on March 30, 2014
There's not much danger of that. Manhunter stood on its own, with Brain Cox giving a much different take on Lecter than Anthony Hopkins'. And half the material in the Red Dragon movie was actually extrapolated from things in SOTL and Hannibal which hadn't been written when Manhunter was made.
posted by localroger at 5:56 PM on March 30, 2014
Manhunter is so strange and personal and ..distinct that it doesn't even seem to be from the same universe as a by the books checking the boxes movie as Red Dragon. Yeah it as problems but you really feel how it's a very unique artifact from a time and place. The fact that it has nearly the same script as Red Dragon really highlights the differences.
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
( I like how tortured and hesitant Will Graham is in Manhunter, it's like how Will is seen in the TV show ..doing his job is really actively damaging him. Ed Norton, who I normally adore, is just not there for the whole Red Dragon movie)
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
like the dictionary definition of phoned in.
= Ratner's entire career
posted by crossoverman at 6:20 PM on March 30, 2014
= Ratner's entire career
posted by crossoverman at 6:20 PM on March 30, 2014
Yeah it as problems but you really feel how it's a very unique artifact from a time and place.
Yeah, a Michael Mann film from the 80s is most definitely its own thing. Ratner of whenever can't hold a candle to Mann making a crime drama.
posted by crossoverman at 6:22 PM on March 30, 2014
Yeah, a Michael Mann film from the 80s is most definitely its own thing. Ratner of whenever can't hold a candle to Mann making a crime drama.
posted by crossoverman at 6:22 PM on March 30, 2014
Phoned in is several magnitude orders greater than Ratner's usual movies.
You know Red Dragon was first offered to Micheal Bay?
posted by The Whelk at 6:22 PM on March 30, 2014
You know Red Dragon was first offered to Micheal Bay?
posted by The Whelk at 6:22 PM on March 30, 2014
You know Red Dragon was first offered to Micheal Bay?
I didn't know that! Honestly, at least Bay might have... done... something, uh, interesting with it. Yeah, I got nuthin'
posted by crossoverman at 6:25 PM on March 30, 2014
I didn't know that! Honestly, at least Bay might have... done... something, uh, interesting with it. Yeah, I got nuthin'
posted by crossoverman at 6:25 PM on March 30, 2014
Well, Bay definitely would've included a shot of Will's wife staring loving after him as he goes off to have some kind of fight. CUE THE SWELLING CHORDS OF THE POWER BALLAD!
posted by rmd1023 at 6:29 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by rmd1023 at 6:29 PM on March 30, 2014
Will: "Don't wanna close my eyes
I don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, Hanni
And I don't wanna miss a thing!"
*rocks out to the man in the last cell on the left*
posted by crossoverman at 6:32 PM on March 30, 2014
I don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, Hanni
And I don't wanna miss a thing!"
*rocks out to the man in the last cell on the left*
posted by crossoverman at 6:32 PM on March 30, 2014
Will punches Dolarhyde so hard that he explodes. In the background "Hero" by Nickelback plays. Everything is in slow motion.
This is my design.
posted by codacorolla at 6:46 PM on March 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
This is my design.
posted by codacorolla at 6:46 PM on March 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
Megan Fox as Alana Bloom is now a thing in my imagination and that is unacceptable.
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:46 PM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:46 PM on March 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Shia LaBeouf as Will Graham. Take THAT!
posted by crossoverman at 6:57 PM on March 30, 2014
posted by crossoverman at 6:57 PM on March 30, 2014
Manhunter only seems strange because it comes from a universe where SOTL and the other Hannibal novels were never written. Hannibal is a minor character, like the oracle in a Greek play which gives advice it knows the hero won't follow and, while technically truthful, it knows will lead the hero to ruin. But it's just a foil, not even a bad guy, because the bad guy is Dolarhyde.
Manhunter also takes its tagline seriously, and the whole theme of transformation. The current series uses that more than SOTL and the other movies did, but it seems to be playing with the idea while Manhunter took it seriously. Part of this is the Baltimore Art Murder Association, which by the sheer frequency of artful murders necessary to fill out the murder-a-week plan is going to make Dolarhyde look like something of a middling player if he doesn't step up his game.
posted by localroger at 7:15 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Manhunter also takes its tagline seriously, and the whole theme of transformation. The current series uses that more than SOTL and the other movies did, but it seems to be playing with the idea while Manhunter took it seriously. Part of this is the Baltimore Art Murder Association, which by the sheer frequency of artful murders necessary to fill out the murder-a-week plan is going to make Dolarhyde look like something of a middling player if he doesn't step up his game.
posted by localroger at 7:15 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think Manhunter seems strange cause of the CONSTANT SNYTH MUSIC SOUNDTRACK but yes it also didn't labor under any ideas of what This Kind Of Movie Was. It was one of the first.
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:52 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Red Dragon (the movie not the book) is execrable. It is foul. Anthony Hopkins lapses into absolute self-parody, almost to the point where he makes his SOTL performance retroactively worse. And his performance in Silence of the Lambs is legitimately brilliant. It's not only well-acted, but expertly staged and shot. The shots in Tennessee in the cage when he and Clarice are talking and his face looks like a skull painted by Francis Bacon and Rembrandt's bastard love-child... the absolute stillness in his body ... the way he conserves his energy, using only precisely the muscles he requires at any given moment. A brilliant performance, as long as you can erase all subsequent performances he's done as the character from your memory.
There are some things Hannibal says in Silence of the Lambs I have a hard time imagining Mads Mikkelson saying, like the "census taker once tried to test me -- I hate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti." or "Pity about poor Catherine though, tick tock tick tock". On the other hand I keep imagining Mads saying "You're very frank Clarice. I think it would be quite something to know you in private life" and it is perfect. I sincerely hope they work it out so they get the rights to do the Clarice Starling storyline, because it would be delicious.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:27 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
There are some things Hannibal says in Silence of the Lambs I have a hard time imagining Mads Mikkelson saying, like the "census taker once tried to test me -- I hate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti." or "Pity about poor Catherine though, tick tock tick tock". On the other hand I keep imagining Mads saying "You're very frank Clarice. I think it would be quite something to know you in private life" and it is perfect. I sincerely hope they work it out so they get the rights to do the Clarice Starling storyline, because it would be delicious.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:27 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I often call Silence of the Lambs my favourite film of all time. And I still want to see Bryan Fuller's version with Mads in that cell pitting his wits against Clarice Starling. I can't wait to hear some of those lines in Mads' mouth - and see how the story looks with Will layered in somehow and with Bryan Fuller's sensibility. I mean, the whole idea is so fraught with disaster - but I still want to see it SO BADLY.
I've not seen Ratner's Red Dragon. I had no interest after the Hannibal film. Plus it's Ratner. Plus it's Anthony Hopkins phoning it in.
posted by crossoverman at 10:31 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've not seen Ratner's Red Dragon. I had no interest after the Hannibal film. Plus it's Ratner. Plus it's Anthony Hopkins phoning it in.
posted by crossoverman at 10:31 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
If Hannibal Lecter had seen Ben Ratner's Red Dragon he would have been so offended, he would have murdered Ben Ratner and put him on display with his head surgically inserted in his own ass. I really don't know what he would have wanted to save as a trophy/food item though
posted by wabbittwax at 10:36 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by wabbittwax at 10:36 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
In defence of Red Dragon, Emily Watson gives a very good performance as Reba (Dolarhyde's blind colleague slash love interest).
That's about it.
posted by figurant at 10:53 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's about it.
posted by figurant at 10:53 PM on March 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is why i love fuller. He saved my beloved Hannibal from those monsters.
posted by tel3path at 1:44 AM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 1:44 AM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
...after the Misfit shoots the Grandmother's son in "A Good Man Is Hard To Find", he puts on the son's very distinctive shirt.
The Grandmother doesn't quite recognise the shirt on the Misfit and expresses confusion about what it reminds her of. Some say that when the Grandmother utters her final words to the Misfit, "you're one of my own children!" she is expressing confusion, rather than grace, but Word Of God contradicts this.
But yeah. This fits in with Hannibal starting to dress down and wear Will-type shirts and sweaters in order to get Alana to mix him up with Will in her mind.
posted by tel3path at 6:55 AM on March 31, 2014
The Grandmother doesn't quite recognise the shirt on the Misfit and expresses confusion about what it reminds her of. Some say that when the Grandmother utters her final words to the Misfit, "you're one of my own children!" she is expressing confusion, rather than grace, but Word Of God contradicts this.
But yeah. This fits in with Hannibal starting to dress down and wear Will-type shirts and sweaters in order to get Alana to mix him up with Will in her mind.
posted by tel3path at 6:55 AM on March 31, 2014
Further thought: where is postmortem!Beverly looking, within the observatory? She could be looking at something important.
posted by tel3path at 7:04 AM on March 31, 2014
posted by tel3path at 7:04 AM on March 31, 2014
Also... Will's *main priority* now is taking Hannibal down, *even if* that means he doesn't get exonerated himself.
If you accept that Will's absolute priority is to incapacitate Hannibal, the whole thing becomes a Xanatos gambit.
1. Orderly kills Hannibal, everyone knows Will did it, ding dong the wicked witch is dead.
1b. Inevitably, if only ages later as part of the probate process, someone is going to go through Hannibal's house and office. Inevitably, what they find there *must* vindicate Will. This still leaves him with one attempted murder charge on his plate, but he may be able to get that down to justifiable homicide and he is therefore slightly better off than he is now, where his best prospect is not guilty by reason of (temporary) insanity (which, despite Alana's optimism, is more likely to keep him inside for the rest of his life than it is to get him his freedom).
1c. If orderly survives the process, it's still going to get Will vindicated, whereupon people will believe him when he says "by the way my orderly's also a serial killer".
1d. If orderly gets killed in the process, Will isn't at the mercy of a serial-killing orderly.
2. Orderly doesn't manage to kill Hannibal, everyone knows Will did it, Hannibal knows Will did it, and WILL HAS GIVEN HANNIBAL WHAT HE WANTS.
Remember, Hannibal doesn't take being killed personally. He actually *drove a sleeping Will* to the Hobbs house, notionally at gunpoint, but it's hard to make that threat stick when you're asleep; then, he let Will wave a gun around while mentally altered and raving. All just to see if Will would come through for him.
And now he has!!! So okay, the person he tried to kill on both occasions was Hannibal, but Rome wasn't built in a day, right? Will might as well have sent Hannibal flowers and heart-shaped candy.
Most likely outcome: Hannibal fakes up some evidence to get Will out, most likely by framing the orderly for absolutely everything. I'm not sure how they'll get around the potential murder charge, but all he said to Alana was "I did what I had to do" which could be taken to mean "I had to expose the orderly" and the whole "I want you to kill Hannibal Lecter," if witnessed, can be attributed to the larger plan to expose the orderly... though that part is by far the weakest link in the chain. Possibly Will has an explanation for that in mind.
If Hannibal isn't killed, the main thing is that Will gets out, and he can deal with people continuing to give him the side-eye until he gets the larger campaign sorted out.
Oh, and the reason he tells Freddie Lounds she has to work out for herself who the killer is - it's the same reason he can't tell Jack. He's not allowed to say Hannibal, so he doesn't.
posted by tel3path at 10:51 AM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you accept that Will's absolute priority is to incapacitate Hannibal, the whole thing becomes a Xanatos gambit.
1. Orderly kills Hannibal, everyone knows Will did it, ding dong the wicked witch is dead.
1b. Inevitably, if only ages later as part of the probate process, someone is going to go through Hannibal's house and office. Inevitably, what they find there *must* vindicate Will. This still leaves him with one attempted murder charge on his plate, but he may be able to get that down to justifiable homicide and he is therefore slightly better off than he is now, where his best prospect is not guilty by reason of (temporary) insanity (which, despite Alana's optimism, is more likely to keep him inside for the rest of his life than it is to get him his freedom).
1c. If orderly survives the process, it's still going to get Will vindicated, whereupon people will believe him when he says "by the way my orderly's also a serial killer".
1d. If orderly gets killed in the process, Will isn't at the mercy of a serial-killing orderly.
2. Orderly doesn't manage to kill Hannibal, everyone knows Will did it, Hannibal knows Will did it, and WILL HAS GIVEN HANNIBAL WHAT HE WANTS.
Remember, Hannibal doesn't take being killed personally. He actually *drove a sleeping Will* to the Hobbs house, notionally at gunpoint, but it's hard to make that threat stick when you're asleep; then, he let Will wave a gun around while mentally altered and raving. All just to see if Will would come through for him.
And now he has!!! So okay, the person he tried to kill on both occasions was Hannibal, but Rome wasn't built in a day, right? Will might as well have sent Hannibal flowers and heart-shaped candy.
Most likely outcome: Hannibal fakes up some evidence to get Will out, most likely by framing the orderly for absolutely everything. I'm not sure how they'll get around the potential murder charge, but all he said to Alana was "I did what I had to do" which could be taken to mean "I had to expose the orderly" and the whole "I want you to kill Hannibal Lecter," if witnessed, can be attributed to the larger plan to expose the orderly... though that part is by far the weakest link in the chain. Possibly Will has an explanation for that in mind.
If Hannibal isn't killed, the main thing is that Will gets out, and he can deal with people continuing to give him the side-eye until he gets the larger campaign sorted out.
Oh, and the reason he tells Freddie Lounds she has to work out for herself who the killer is - it's the same reason he can't tell Jack. He's not allowed to say Hannibal, so he doesn't.
posted by tel3path at 10:51 AM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
I assume Orderly's Apprentice Murder Wizard Powers include turning off the mics at will. I don't think "I want you to kill Hannibal Lecter" wasn't on record, and the only source is Gideon telling Alana and he's insane (the fact that Gideon was totally right is a bit sticky but we're not working on any real human legal system, so it's got some wiggle room).
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on March 31, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 11:10 AM on March 31, 2014
I assume Orderly's Apprentice Murder Wizard Powers include turning off the mics at will.
There's a line near the start of their first conversation where Will says something about Chilton eavesdropping, to which the orderly replies something along the lines of, "Yeah, but who do you think wired those mics in the first place? BTW, they're totes disconnected right now."
Gideon's the only one who overheard Will's request and there's no recording of it.
posted by sparkletone at 11:24 AM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's a line near the start of their first conversation where Will says something about Chilton eavesdropping, to which the orderly replies something along the lines of, "Yeah, but who do you think wired those mics in the first place? BTW, they're totes disconnected right now."
Gideon's the only one who overheard Will's request and there's no recording of it.
posted by sparkletone at 11:24 AM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
On the subject of women of color in TV and film: Typecast (Lorde "Royals" Parody)
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on March 31, 2014
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on March 31, 2014
Yes, Gideon told Alana, but in fact he is insane. (And every single thing he said was true, too.)
Also, Will could explain that away by saying he told Gideon so Gideon would pass it on and cause the murder attempt to be intercepted. (Gideon, unlike Hannibal, objects to being killed so he holds a grudge against Will.) Will dropped a heavy hint to Alana but didn't state outright that his target was Hannibal.
Basically by demonstrating that he told as many people as possible, he can show that he didn't expect the orderly to get very far.
And Matthew Brown said explicitly that he had disabled the mikes. I am under the impression Will didn't know Gideon was listening, and indeed that he didn't know Gideon was in the adjoining cell. However, unless Will's stupid he has to take the risk that everything he says will be heard, regardless of what the orderly tells him. You make a statement like that, you'd better be prepared for other people to know you said it.
posted by tel3path at 11:37 AM on March 31, 2014
Also, Will could explain that away by saying he told Gideon so Gideon would pass it on and cause the murder attempt to be intercepted. (Gideon, unlike Hannibal, objects to being killed so he holds a grudge against Will.) Will dropped a heavy hint to Alana but didn't state outright that his target was Hannibal.
Basically by demonstrating that he told as many people as possible, he can show that he didn't expect the orderly to get very far.
And Matthew Brown said explicitly that he had disabled the mikes. I am under the impression Will didn't know Gideon was listening, and indeed that he didn't know Gideon was in the adjoining cell. However, unless Will's stupid he has to take the risk that everything he says will be heard, regardless of what the orderly tells him. You make a statement like that, you'd better be prepared for other people to know you said it.
posted by tel3path at 11:37 AM on March 31, 2014
I think, though, we're getting so fixated on these details that we're missing the main points, which are these:
1) Gideon suggested killing Hannibal while he and Will were in the therapy cages. Will knows that conversations in the therapy cages are recorded.
2) Will set his plan in motion by giving an interview with Freddie Lounds, which is about as public as he could make it. If Alana hadn't come to ask Will about it, odds are someone else at the BAU would have.
3) Chilton saw the interview and he heard the conversation with Gideon and he put two and two together, which is why he sent Alana to interview Gideon. He had a purpose, he didn't suggest it off the top of his head. Also, it takes one to know one. Chilton has made a patient kill. He would be able to spot when someone else was trying to induce someone to kill.
All the coyness and indirectness makes this something of a Rube Goldberg machine, but every outcome redounds to Will's favour.
Basically Will knows that he has no privacy and he is making full use of it.
posted by tel3path at 11:48 AM on March 31, 2014
1) Gideon suggested killing Hannibal while he and Will were in the therapy cages. Will knows that conversations in the therapy cages are recorded.
2) Will set his plan in motion by giving an interview with Freddie Lounds, which is about as public as he could make it. If Alana hadn't come to ask Will about it, odds are someone else at the BAU would have.
3) Chilton saw the interview and he heard the conversation with Gideon and he put two and two together, which is why he sent Alana to interview Gideon. He had a purpose, he didn't suggest it off the top of his head. Also, it takes one to know one. Chilton has made a patient kill. He would be able to spot when someone else was trying to induce someone to kill.
All the coyness and indirectness makes this something of a Rube Goldberg machine, but every outcome redounds to Will's favour.
Basically Will knows that he has no privacy and he is making full use of it.
posted by tel3path at 11:48 AM on March 31, 2014
Most likely outcome: Hannibal fakes up some evidence to get Will out, most likely by framing the orderly for absolutely everything. I'm not sure how they'll get around the potential murder charge, but all he said to Alana was "I did what I had to do" which could be taken to mean "I had to expose the orderly" and the whole "I want you to kill Hannibal Lecter," if witnessed, can be attributed to the larger plan to expose the orderly... though that part is by far the weakest link in the chain. Possibly Will has an explanation for that in mind.
Matthew Brown has already had an obsession with Will, he's been digging through his files and I guess even took this job so that he could get close to Will (or to the Chesapeake Ripper, anyway). So Will's people could maybe spin it like Brown was trying to make this big gesture for Will (by killing Hannibal) but Will didn't actually order the killing? Will could also say that he was just trying to tell Brown whatever Brown wanted to hear or to send Brown into a set up because he was scared, and that he wanted Gideon and Alana to overhear because he didn't want Hannibal dead (but couldn't be completely straight with anyone, including Alana, because he knew Brown was probably listening on to everything/stalking him). Both those things are maybe even true or semi-true, I think they're certainly plausible. Also, I think that Hannibal will do whatever he can to get Will off anyway, so Will doesn't need to make everything watertight. Brown also might shift his crush toward Hannibal at this point also, since he figured out that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper and he has a thing for serial killers, so he could be a bit of a wildcard.
I guess I'm mostly confused about what Will wants? Does he not want to leave BSHCI? I'm sorry to get hung up on that, I'm just wondering about his state of mind because I think it makes a big difference to who his character is if he's primarily blaming Hannibal for being a manipulative/murderous psycho and he thinks that he (Will) should be free ASAP v. if he's primarily blaming himself for being manipulated/doing a terrible job as a profiler and thinks that he (Will) should be in a hospital/locked up because he's sick and weak? I mean, Will could be feeling both those things at once, I assume he would be feeling somewhat of a mixture regardless, but I'm thinking that if he wants out of BSHCI he's primarily in the former state of mind and if he wants to stay in BSHCI he's primarily in the latter?
Also, it's not supposed to be a "thing" that Will has zero old friends or other exes/SOs or relatives coming out of the woodwork to come to the trial or visit him or even give interviews to the media or anything, right? The only family on this show is Abigail's and that's just how it's going to be because that's how the world of the show works? (Why *is* that, anyway?) It's making me feel that Will might actually be a psychopath that he seems to have no old ties or any personal life, but I don't think that's actually what the show is trying to convey?
And does it matter that Will isn't really warning Alana (or Jack, actually, but I think Will must be pissed as hell at Jack since seeing Beverly, and willing to let Jack sleep in whatever bed he's made for himself at this point) off of Hannibal? Is that because Will doesn't figure Alana's much of an ally to him so she's not in danger, or because he's just really cold-hearted or...? I know he's trying not to name Hannibal to anybody, but with her in particular, I think he actually could ask her as a favor to stay away from Hannibal in a way that she'd honor -- they're friends, and she's not an idiot, she knows that he's not completely batshit even if she thinks he's not entirely OK either -- and I would think he'd owe it to her to at least try, now that he's seen what happened to Beverly. But he doesn't seem to want to do that?
posted by rue72 at 1:53 PM on March 31, 2014
Matthew Brown has already had an obsession with Will, he's been digging through his files and I guess even took this job so that he could get close to Will (or to the Chesapeake Ripper, anyway). So Will's people could maybe spin it like Brown was trying to make this big gesture for Will (by killing Hannibal) but Will didn't actually order the killing? Will could also say that he was just trying to tell Brown whatever Brown wanted to hear or to send Brown into a set up because he was scared, and that he wanted Gideon and Alana to overhear because he didn't want Hannibal dead (but couldn't be completely straight with anyone, including Alana, because he knew Brown was probably listening on to everything/stalking him). Both those things are maybe even true or semi-true, I think they're certainly plausible. Also, I think that Hannibal will do whatever he can to get Will off anyway, so Will doesn't need to make everything watertight. Brown also might shift his crush toward Hannibal at this point also, since he figured out that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper and he has a thing for serial killers, so he could be a bit of a wildcard.
I guess I'm mostly confused about what Will wants? Does he not want to leave BSHCI? I'm sorry to get hung up on that, I'm just wondering about his state of mind because I think it makes a big difference to who his character is if he's primarily blaming Hannibal for being a manipulative/murderous psycho and he thinks that he (Will) should be free ASAP v. if he's primarily blaming himself for being manipulated/doing a terrible job as a profiler and thinks that he (Will) should be in a hospital/locked up because he's sick and weak? I mean, Will could be feeling both those things at once, I assume he would be feeling somewhat of a mixture regardless, but I'm thinking that if he wants out of BSHCI he's primarily in the former state of mind and if he wants to stay in BSHCI he's primarily in the latter?
Also, it's not supposed to be a "thing" that Will has zero old friends or other exes/SOs or relatives coming out of the woodwork to come to the trial or visit him or even give interviews to the media or anything, right? The only family on this show is Abigail's and that's just how it's going to be because that's how the world of the show works? (Why *is* that, anyway?) It's making me feel that Will might actually be a psychopath that he seems to have no old ties or any personal life, but I don't think that's actually what the show is trying to convey?
And does it matter that Will isn't really warning Alana (or Jack, actually, but I think Will must be pissed as hell at Jack since seeing Beverly, and willing to let Jack sleep in whatever bed he's made for himself at this point) off of Hannibal? Is that because Will doesn't figure Alana's much of an ally to him so she's not in danger, or because he's just really cold-hearted or...? I know he's trying not to name Hannibal to anybody, but with her in particular, I think he actually could ask her as a favor to stay away from Hannibal in a way that she'd honor -- they're friends, and she's not an idiot, she knows that he's not completely batshit even if she thinks he's not entirely OK either -- and I would think he'd owe it to her to at least try, now that he's seen what happened to Beverly. But he doesn't seem to want to do that?
posted by rue72 at 1:53 PM on March 31, 2014
No, he was warning the fuck out of everybody and they have said straight out that they don't want to hear it. He's been told repeatedly and vigorously by multiple people that he MUST NOT say Hannibal is a serial killer in any way. There is no point harping on this with Alana because she doesn't believe him. If he keeps on about it, it will only make him look paranoid, vindictive, obsessed, dangerous and all kinds of bad stuff, he'll have even less credibility than he has now. Alana will just think that he's jealous of Hannibal and is maybe even a crazed suitor trying to rub out a rival.
If he keeps giving Alana what she wants and pitifully sobbing about how sick and incomplete his mind is, as he did in episode 2, she'll think he's cooperating with the diagnosis and treatment and is well on his way to earning his mental health and freedom. Not too much health of course!!! She needs Will to be somewhat crazy, always, because that is who he is to her. But basically she thinks she and Hannibal are applying themselves to nurse Will back to health.
Will definitely wants out of the loony bin. No question. But his first priority, above all, is to take hannibal down because he's a threat to everyone Will knows. If that means he stays inside, then so be it. But he wants out, not least because it is extremely dangerous in there. Chilton practices extremely unethical psychiatry, basically treats his patients like experimental zombie dolls, and he is hamfisted with it. Not to mention will's very porous ego boundaries (though I think they're getting stronger simply because that's what it takes to be in manipulation mode 24/7). It wouldn't take much for chilton to do permanent damage to will's mind and/or brain. No fucking way he wants to stay inside. Also his dogs are outside.
It was this episode that the stag came through and it was this episode that STOP HANNIBAL really became an absolute priority whereas previously Will was at least equally concerned with getting out. But the dream sequence where he throws the switch on himself in the electric chair shows that he was always aware he might have to act against his own interests, possibly in extremis.
As for Will having no family: he only had his father, who is now dead; they moved around a lot so he made no lasting friendships. Add to that his overwhelming empathy which makes it hard for him to spend time in the company of other people enough to form strong relationships with them, and you have a man who is sadly more solitary and isolated than he wants to be. To the casual observer, of course, this could easily make him look like a dodgy person, and i do think the other characters stigmatize him for his condition as a whole, and the solitariness is part of it.
posted by tel3path at 2:35 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
If he keeps giving Alana what she wants and pitifully sobbing about how sick and incomplete his mind is, as he did in episode 2, she'll think he's cooperating with the diagnosis and treatment and is well on his way to earning his mental health and freedom. Not too much health of course!!! She needs Will to be somewhat crazy, always, because that is who he is to her. But basically she thinks she and Hannibal are applying themselves to nurse Will back to health.
Will definitely wants out of the loony bin. No question. But his first priority, above all, is to take hannibal down because he's a threat to everyone Will knows. If that means he stays inside, then so be it. But he wants out, not least because it is extremely dangerous in there. Chilton practices extremely unethical psychiatry, basically treats his patients like experimental zombie dolls, and he is hamfisted with it. Not to mention will's very porous ego boundaries (though I think they're getting stronger simply because that's what it takes to be in manipulation mode 24/7). It wouldn't take much for chilton to do permanent damage to will's mind and/or brain. No fucking way he wants to stay inside. Also his dogs are outside.
It was this episode that the stag came through and it was this episode that STOP HANNIBAL really became an absolute priority whereas previously Will was at least equally concerned with getting out. But the dream sequence where he throws the switch on himself in the electric chair shows that he was always aware he might have to act against his own interests, possibly in extremis.
As for Will having no family: he only had his father, who is now dead; they moved around a lot so he made no lasting friendships. Add to that his overwhelming empathy which makes it hard for him to spend time in the company of other people enough to form strong relationships with them, and you have a man who is sadly more solitary and isolated than he wants to be. To the casual observer, of course, this could easily make him look like a dodgy person, and i do think the other characters stigmatize him for his condition as a whole, and the solitariness is part of it.
posted by tel3path at 2:35 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also: his extreme solitariness and loneliness were part of what made Hannibal so appealing to him. Not only *are* they somewhat alike, and equal in acumen which is very important - Hannibal was the only person who SEEMINGLY cared about Will in his own right, he said straight out "i don't care about the lives you save, i care about your life". To everyone else, will's interests are always secondary to something else they want from him or some priority in their own lives. Probably his dad was too overwhelmed with the need to make a living to take particularly good care of him. Now hannibal puts him first, it was just too seductive to resist.
Alana and Jack want to be in with the in-crowd, I think, part of the smart set. To some extent, shown or implied, neither of them is completely alone in the world. Will doesn't care about being socially impressive, he just wanted love and his head was turned by false promises.
posted by tel3path at 2:41 PM on March 31, 2014
Alana and Jack want to be in with the in-crowd, I think, part of the smart set. To some extent, shown or implied, neither of them is completely alone in the world. Will doesn't care about being socially impressive, he just wanted love and his head was turned by false promises.
posted by tel3path at 2:41 PM on March 31, 2014
"Oh I'm so so clever I made a little will mask and eating his brain full of bev, tee hee."
posted by The Whelk at 6:50 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 6:50 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
You know what really made me happy? Gideon telling Alana "we're both equally expendable."
posted by dogheart at 6:59 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by dogheart at 6:59 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
GIDEON'S MOTIVATIONS WHAT ARE THEY
Like I assume it's "find a way to get everyone killed." But I think he's just winging it.
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like I assume it's "find a way to get everyone killed." But I think he's just winging it.
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
When in doubt I assume it's "for the lulz." I don't know what Gideon wants, or what Will really ultimately wants.
But I mean. Like I say this as a relentless hannibloom shipper, that line made me SO HAPPY.
I'm content waiting to see how everyone's motivations play out, I'm just really enjoying the Grand Guginol operatics.
posted by dogheart at 7:20 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
But I mean. Like I say this as a relentless hannibloom shipper, that line made me SO HAPPY.
I'm content waiting to see how everyone's motivations play out, I'm just really enjoying the Grand Guginol operatics.
posted by dogheart at 7:20 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
also I say this like three times a day to my phone, but really? I LOVE EVERYONE ON THIS WEBSITE. And that goes double for everyone in these threads.
posted by dogheart at 7:22 PM on March 31, 2014
posted by dogheart at 7:22 PM on March 31, 2014
We love you too, dogheart. Especially as your username suggests a potentially tasty dish.
posted by localroger at 7:32 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by localroger at 7:32 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
just put those steamers and tongs away when talking to me
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on March 31, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on March 31, 2014
Winston is #notforeating, damn it.
posted by Stacey at 7:41 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 7:41 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
Things we do not eat:
Dogs
Beverlys
Feet
Week old shellfish
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on March 31, 2014 [3 favorites]
Dogs
Beverlys
Feet
Week old shellfish
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on March 31, 2014 [3 favorites]
besides I was the best kitchen-towel strangler in my class at The Fancy Cannibal School Of Murder Cooking.
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
Chilton deserves props for making Hannibal think he's an ally not a threat as he tries to maneuver his way around all the secrets and double-meaning conversations although he doesn't int ehw only way he knows how, ass-kissing and self-interest, trying to make himself be seen as not a threat while still possibly, a little bit, raising that threat.
posted by The Whelk at 8:05 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:05 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
(Plus, that poke from Gideon must have hurt. Chilton may only have suspicions but now he has a pure professional jealousy to take Hannibal down a peg. That smile he badly repressed when Will said he might be the one to catch the Ripper....)
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 31, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:06 PM on March 31, 2014
oh and the ""Did I ever tell you about the most traumatizing fanfic concept I ever heard?"" thing mentioned in the podcast is Hannibal feeding Will his dogs then gaslighting him into thinking "no no you only have five dogs ..there never was a little one..."
Of course he serves Winston last.
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on March 31, 2014
Of course he serves Winston last.
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on March 31, 2014
No nothing bad will happen to dogs ever
But man I am enjoying the hell out of Chilton this season. Bro is killing it in every scene and it's delightful.
posted by dogheart at 8:15 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
But man I am enjoying the hell out of Chilton this season. Bro is killing it in every scene and it's delightful.
posted by dogheart at 8:15 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Ceolinda recap really cleared up Bev's line of thought there. The Kidney is missing, will says he's eating them, if Will is right then she doesn't have a lot time to check this out before he eats it, and upon hearing that Hannibal is away, decides to take the chance and get something while inadmissible, would convince jack that they need to do a full, hard look at Lecter now and start believing Will. She finds her clue ..but then finds the trap door and can;t help herself cause MOAR EVIDENCE.
Which, considering how quickly Hannibal appears behind her ..I think sh was dead the instant she walked into that house and the only clean she wasn;t killed in the dining room or on the way out was so we could see the MURDER DUNGEON under the DINING ROOM
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
Which, considering how quickly Hannibal appears behind her ..I think sh was dead the instant she walked into that house and the only clean she wasn;t killed in the dining room or on the way out was so we could see the MURDER DUNGEON under the DINING ROOM
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]
(also, all the killers the BAU have faced so far have been kinda pathetic, hapless figures, not Crazy Fast Murder Wizards, there's no way she could've known he was a Vampire who can travel at the speed of dark.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on March 31, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 PM on March 31, 2014 [3 favorites]
If he keeps giving Alana what she wants and pitifully sobbing about how sick and incomplete his mind is, as he did in episode 2, she'll think he's cooperating with the diagnosis and treatment and is well on his way to earning his mental health and freedom. Not too much health of course!!! She needs Will to be somewhat crazy, always, because that is who he is to her. But basically she thinks she and Hannibal are applying themselves to nurse Will back to health.
You're right, she's been clear she's not going to listen, and she would probably have responded by trying to force Will to "stick to the script" which would have made things worse.
You have to give it to Alana, that woman has an iron will. I wish she would apply that strength to things other than making sure appearances are kept up and (facile) narratives are adhered to, but what can ya do.
Will definitely wants out of the loony bin. No question. But his first priority, above all, is to take hannibal down because he's a threat to everyone Will knows. If that means he stays inside, then so be it.
But *Will* is the biggest threat to Hannibal -- he knows the most about him, and he's got a relatively strong hold on him. Will being locked away in BSHCI keeps Will separated from Hannibal, which is safer for both of them. It's more dangerous for everyone else, though, because without Will to distract or restrain him, Hannibal is just running amok. So if Will doesn't care about his personal safety and only wants to take out Hannibal, shouldn't he be prioritizing getting out of BSHCI?
I know, I know, he was impatient or hopeful or bold and decided to just send Brown out there, consequences be damned. That was probably the best thing he could have done, on balance, because even though Hannibal lived, it was still a good way to throw a gauntlet at Hannibal's feet (which Hannibal will like, I'm sure), and now Brown won't be creeping around in the Room of Tiny Cages saying things that sound to me like "in here, nobody can hear you scream." Just too bad that there's a cost to it, in the form of this legitimate attempted murder charge mucking up Will's as-yet-entirely-hypothetical release.
Well, on the upside, I'm sure that Hannibal will see surviving the attempted murder as an opportunity to preen in front of Will's cage like a cat slinking in front of a chained dog, which will be fun to watch.
Chilton deserves props for making Hannibal think he's an ally not a threat as he tries to maneuver his way around all the secrets and double-meaning conversations although he doesn't int ehw only way he knows how, ass-kissing and self-interest, trying to make himself be seen as not a threat while still possibly, a little bit, raising that threat.
Chilton maybe needs to do something bold ASAP, though, because it's fine to play meek enough that he doesn't seem like a threat, but he also can't play so meek that Hannibal loses interest.
If he actually wants to screw Hannibal over, I think he's going to have to keep sandbagging Hannibal to whip up Hannibal's (over)confidence, but he's also got to keep the game fun enough that Hannibal is willing to take at least some risk to keep playing -- when Hannibal is overconfident *and* has something at risk is when Chilton will have his opening to screw him over. If Hannibal is just overconfident but has nothing at risk, then I guess Chilton will have won (up to then, anyway) in the sense of not losing, but he won't have actually *won* anything.
Will could play that game with Hannibal, too, and I think that's probably his best shot at getting to Hannibal in general. The only downside is that it requires maybe more patience than he has? Personally, I think he should play at being a diverting-but-not-legitimately-scary threat to Hannibal at least until Hannibal springs him in order for them to play cat-and-mouse out in the world (and so Hannibal can show off how "badass" he is that he can get someone sprung from BSHCI in the first place).
It would be so funny if everyone were trying to play cat-and-mouse with Hannibal at the same time. I hope that's what they all do, Alana included.
the dream sequence where he throws the switch on himself in the electric chair shows that he was always aware he might have to act against his own interests, possibly in extremis.
That's what that dream sequence meant?! I thought it was something he *didn't* want to happen, not something he was resigning himself to. He's trapped with a bunch of monsters and he's thinking about screwing *himself* over? What? NO! No, they've already got "destroy Will" pretty well covered, he doesn't need to help them.
I want to slap Will and be like: *Nobody* is looking out for you, buddy! Nobody gives a shit about you but you, so you need to take care of yourself! This show is so dark I don't even want its hero to do anything heroic, I just want him to try and keep himself from getting devoured by all these wolves. Great.
posted by rue72 at 11:25 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're right, she's been clear she's not going to listen, and she would probably have responded by trying to force Will to "stick to the script" which would have made things worse.
You have to give it to Alana, that woman has an iron will. I wish she would apply that strength to things other than making sure appearances are kept up and (facile) narratives are adhered to, but what can ya do.
Will definitely wants out of the loony bin. No question. But his first priority, above all, is to take hannibal down because he's a threat to everyone Will knows. If that means he stays inside, then so be it.
But *Will* is the biggest threat to Hannibal -- he knows the most about him, and he's got a relatively strong hold on him. Will being locked away in BSHCI keeps Will separated from Hannibal, which is safer for both of them. It's more dangerous for everyone else, though, because without Will to distract or restrain him, Hannibal is just running amok. So if Will doesn't care about his personal safety and only wants to take out Hannibal, shouldn't he be prioritizing getting out of BSHCI?
I know, I know, he was impatient or hopeful or bold and decided to just send Brown out there, consequences be damned. That was probably the best thing he could have done, on balance, because even though Hannibal lived, it was still a good way to throw a gauntlet at Hannibal's feet (which Hannibal will like, I'm sure), and now Brown won't be creeping around in the Room of Tiny Cages saying things that sound to me like "in here, nobody can hear you scream." Just too bad that there's a cost to it, in the form of this legitimate attempted murder charge mucking up Will's as-yet-entirely-hypothetical release.
Well, on the upside, I'm sure that Hannibal will see surviving the attempted murder as an opportunity to preen in front of Will's cage like a cat slinking in front of a chained dog, which will be fun to watch.
Chilton deserves props for making Hannibal think he's an ally not a threat as he tries to maneuver his way around all the secrets and double-meaning conversations although he doesn't int ehw only way he knows how, ass-kissing and self-interest, trying to make himself be seen as not a threat while still possibly, a little bit, raising that threat.
Chilton maybe needs to do something bold ASAP, though, because it's fine to play meek enough that he doesn't seem like a threat, but he also can't play so meek that Hannibal loses interest.
If he actually wants to screw Hannibal over, I think he's going to have to keep sandbagging Hannibal to whip up Hannibal's (over)confidence, but he's also got to keep the game fun enough that Hannibal is willing to take at least some risk to keep playing -- when Hannibal is overconfident *and* has something at risk is when Chilton will have his opening to screw him over. If Hannibal is just overconfident but has nothing at risk, then I guess Chilton will have won (up to then, anyway) in the sense of not losing, but he won't have actually *won* anything.
Will could play that game with Hannibal, too, and I think that's probably his best shot at getting to Hannibal in general. The only downside is that it requires maybe more patience than he has? Personally, I think he should play at being a diverting-but-not-legitimately-scary threat to Hannibal at least until Hannibal springs him in order for them to play cat-and-mouse out in the world (and so Hannibal can show off how "badass" he is that he can get someone sprung from BSHCI in the first place).
It would be so funny if everyone were trying to play cat-and-mouse with Hannibal at the same time. I hope that's what they all do, Alana included.
the dream sequence where he throws the switch on himself in the electric chair shows that he was always aware he might have to act against his own interests, possibly in extremis.
That's what that dream sequence meant?! I thought it was something he *didn't* want to happen, not something he was resigning himself to. He's trapped with a bunch of monsters and he's thinking about screwing *himself* over? What? NO! No, they've already got "destroy Will" pretty well covered, he doesn't need to help them.
I want to slap Will and be like: *Nobody* is looking out for you, buddy! Nobody gives a shit about you but you, so you need to take care of yourself! This show is so dark I don't even want its hero to do anything heroic, I just want him to try and keep himself from getting devoured by all these wolves. Great.
posted by rue72 at 11:25 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't know if gideon has any traceable motive (haha)... Chilton psychic-drove him into thinking he was evil, not that he was a good guy in the first place. Gideon has no real identity of his own. So there he is, strutting around being evil and saying "I'm evil". Also he's bored, has no prospects, if he can influence events a little he can feel somewhat more powerful in life.
I do notice one thing about him though. He's always been distinguished by quirky, perverse acts of quasi-kindness. He tells Alana the whole truth, that she is as expendable as he is; and the result of the conversation will be to *stop* someone being killed and stop will from becoming a killer (at his original suggestion, but he's not going through with it). So, though he is in the guise of an evil person, it's not quite as clear to me that his actions are evil in this episode.
posted by tel3path at 12:34 AM on April 1, 2014
I do notice one thing about him though. He's always been distinguished by quirky, perverse acts of quasi-kindness. He tells Alana the whole truth, that she is as expendable as he is; and the result of the conversation will be to *stop* someone being killed and stop will from becoming a killer (at his original suggestion, but he's not going through with it). So, though he is in the guise of an evil person, it's not quite as clear to me that his actions are evil in this episode.
posted by tel3path at 12:34 AM on April 1, 2014
You're right, she's been clear she's not going to listen, and she would probably have responded by trying to force Will to "stick to the script" which would have made things worse.
You have to give it to Alana, that woman has an iron will. I wish she would apply that strength to things other than making sure appearances are kept up and (facile) narratives are adhered to, but what can ya do.
Even Jack, who probably has the strongest personal investment in believing in Hannibal right now (prospect of proving himself wrong AGAIN, reassessing his relationship with what he believes to be his most valuable friend and source of comfort and concrete help) and despite all of it he is actually going to get suspicious now, but Alana I think is gonna be the ultimate holdout, and I am just itching to find out the reasons why. How much of it is Hannibal fooling her - possibly by the use of drugs and hypnosis - and how much of it is her fooling herself?
I gotta hand it to her, though, those stills of them at the dinner partly look motherfucking GREAT. they look like the KING AND QUEEN of Baltimore society. [1] it is a shame there is a murder dungeon directly under their feet, but as we said... Half the fandom would hit that. Lecter has his faults, but if he's half as skilled in the bedroom as the kitchen it's pretty clear he'd show you a good time, briefly.
I note with anguish that we are all to thank revlon for this upcoming episode's sponsorship by using the hashtag #blushingbloom. I'm scared.
[1] Baltimore society, lol. Well, every fish finds the right sized pond for its comfort, I guess.
posted by tel3path at 1:00 AM on April 1, 2014
You have to give it to Alana, that woman has an iron will. I wish she would apply that strength to things other than making sure appearances are kept up and (facile) narratives are adhered to, but what can ya do.
Even Jack, who probably has the strongest personal investment in believing in Hannibal right now (prospect of proving himself wrong AGAIN, reassessing his relationship with what he believes to be his most valuable friend and source of comfort and concrete help) and despite all of it he is actually going to get suspicious now, but Alana I think is gonna be the ultimate holdout, and I am just itching to find out the reasons why. How much of it is Hannibal fooling her - possibly by the use of drugs and hypnosis - and how much of it is her fooling herself?
I gotta hand it to her, though, those stills of them at the dinner partly look motherfucking GREAT. they look like the KING AND QUEEN of Baltimore society. [1] it is a shame there is a murder dungeon directly under their feet, but as we said... Half the fandom would hit that. Lecter has his faults, but if he's half as skilled in the bedroom as the kitchen it's pretty clear he'd show you a good time, briefly.
I note with anguish that we are all to thank revlon for this upcoming episode's sponsorship by using the hashtag #blushingbloom. I'm scared.
[1] Baltimore society, lol. Well, every fish finds the right sized pond for its comfort, I guess.
posted by tel3path at 1:00 AM on April 1, 2014
"So if Will doesn't care about his personal safety and only wants to take out Hannibal, shouldn't he be prioritizing getting out of BSHCI?"
Well, he tried that last week and all the weeks before and, in fact, in the ambulance last season during the transfer. It's just not working very well. For the time being, there is no possible mechanism by which he can get out of the loony bin.
All Alana will see is an attempted murder, and murder is Naughty. Like I said, I hope Jack's newfound suspicions are sustained, though I don't see how if he's to keep alive till the last episode.
That bit in the promo trailer where Alana protests, "Hannibal is not a serial killer!" but she has a BIG eye-movement to the side when she says it? DOUBT. But she'll cast aside her doubt because she is, and always has been, aligned with Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 AM on April 1, 2014
Well, he tried that last week and all the weeks before and, in fact, in the ambulance last season during the transfer. It's just not working very well. For the time being, there is no possible mechanism by which he can get out of the loony bin.
All Alana will see is an attempted murder, and murder is Naughty. Like I said, I hope Jack's newfound suspicions are sustained, though I don't see how if he's to keep alive till the last episode.
That bit in the promo trailer where Alana protests, "Hannibal is not a serial killer!" but she has a BIG eye-movement to the side when she says it? DOUBT. But she'll cast aside her doubt because she is, and always has been, aligned with Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 AM on April 1, 2014
I have a lot of Alana feelings. Someone here on TWOP has a pretty insightful take on why she may be coming in for sharper criticism about not being able to see Hannibal for what he is (I'm GinevraDiBenci over there, fyi - part of the conversation that this poster is responding to).
The idea of the audience being angrier at Alana because she's been one of our touchstones that is now failing to protect us is interesting to me, as is the idea that her role as specifically a warm, maternal caretaker makes it worse when she fails. I've seen a lot of joking about Jack being clueless, but when it's Alana, people seem to be angry about why she is not "smarter."
posted by PussKillian at 10:11 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The idea of the audience being angrier at Alana because she's been one of our touchstones that is now failing to protect us is interesting to me, as is the idea that her role as specifically a warm, maternal caretaker makes it worse when she fails. I've seen a lot of joking about Jack being clueless, but when it's Alana, people seem to be angry about why she is not "smarter."
posted by PussKillian at 10:11 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The idea of the audience being angrier at Alana because she's been one of our touchstones that is now failing to protect us is interesting to me, as is the idea that her role as specifically a warm, maternal caretaker makes it worse when she fails. I've seen a lot of joking about Jack being clueless, but when it's Alana, people seem to be angry about why she is not "smarter."
I think that people are harder on Alana in general than on Jack because she's much more vulnerable than Jack. I don't see her in a maternal role, I see her more as the "good daughter." To me, she always seems to be looking for approval. She also always seems to be trying to follow directions and do things "correctly." She's in this massively fucked up world and her "instructions" don't make any sense anymore but she's going to follow them, dammit, and she's going to make sure everyone else follows them, too. Doctor's orders, I guess?
She refuses to think for herself -- even when she is thinking for herself in practice, like when she was deciding not to get together with Will last season, she pretended not to think "for herself," she made a recommendation for a hypothetical patient and then followed it. It's horrifying to see a smart and reasonably "good" character will herself to believe that her world is better and simpler than it is, and to shut her mouth and follow orders, because we know that she's willing herself to walk right into the monster's lair. It's a similar horror/frustration as I think a lot of people (including me) were having with Will last season, but at least with him, we know he's not expendable -- with Alana, we can't feel that kind of reassurance.
And it's specifically Hannibal who has decided (from the beginning, I think) that Alana is expendable. I think that Hannibal is even more contemptuous of Alana than he of Jack, he wrote her off from the first and doesn't even keep up a facade of obsequiousness toward her, hasn't done much to "seduce" her or feed her. I think that a lot of people are taking their cues toward her from Hannibal, and since he's more contemptuous and dismissive of her and thinks she's not "smart" (or something?) enough, I think that a lot of people are predisposed to see her that way, too.
posted by rue72 at 1:18 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think that people are harder on Alana in general than on Jack because she's much more vulnerable than Jack. I don't see her in a maternal role, I see her more as the "good daughter." To me, she always seems to be looking for approval. She also always seems to be trying to follow directions and do things "correctly." She's in this massively fucked up world and her "instructions" don't make any sense anymore but she's going to follow them, dammit, and she's going to make sure everyone else follows them, too. Doctor's orders, I guess?
She refuses to think for herself -- even when she is thinking for herself in practice, like when she was deciding not to get together with Will last season, she pretended not to think "for herself," she made a recommendation for a hypothetical patient and then followed it. It's horrifying to see a smart and reasonably "good" character will herself to believe that her world is better and simpler than it is, and to shut her mouth and follow orders, because we know that she's willing herself to walk right into the monster's lair. It's a similar horror/frustration as I think a lot of people (including me) were having with Will last season, but at least with him, we know he's not expendable -- with Alana, we can't feel that kind of reassurance.
And it's specifically Hannibal who has decided (from the beginning, I think) that Alana is expendable. I think that Hannibal is even more contemptuous of Alana than he of Jack, he wrote her off from the first and doesn't even keep up a facade of obsequiousness toward her, hasn't done much to "seduce" her or feed her. I think that a lot of people are taking their cues toward her from Hannibal, and since he's more contemptuous and dismissive of her and thinks she's not "smart" (or something?) enough, I think that a lot of people are predisposed to see her that way, too.
posted by rue72 at 1:18 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I see what they're saying. But people keep repeating over and over that Alana has no more reason to suspect Hannibal than Jack does, and I don't entirely agree with that. Or at least... she may have no more reason to suspect him *now* than anyone does, but my expectation (I could be wrong) is that as time goes on she will continue to be a bit of a holdout. In general she is completely and utterly unsuspicious of Hannibal and I really have to question why (and I do think literal brainwashing by Hannibal is one possible explanation).
I basically think that Alana in some ways represents the mother of a child who has behavioural problems because Daddy's abusing him, and she sobs pathetically "I want to save you" and is bewildered at how helpless she is to make her child better, and she will do everything except listen to him when he says Daddy is abusing him. That's what's so upsetting about her.
I won't labour all my reasons why I think the characters should be more suspicious of Hannibal than they are, because I've said that over and over again, but suffice it to say it does boil down to personal feelings. The characters are so personally enmeshed with each other throughout the show that impartiality is impossible; they even had the Science Bros examining Bev's body when what they *really* need is an outsider's perspective, because right now, they literally wouldn't know a serial killer if they fell over one!
Alana is a deceptively frustrating character, I think. As the discussion you linked pointed out, she seems all warm and nurturing and protective, but then doesn't protect anyone, including herself.
If you go over her conversations with Will in S1, she often conveys double messages to him, such as reassuring him that he's not "broken", but then continuously treating him as if he is. And then, late that night, she goes to Will's house (no small distance), kisses him, then tells him they're incompatible and can't be in a relationship. While the kissing is going on, Will repeatedly reminds her "I'm not your patient," i.e. it's not unethical to have an affair with me. But by choosing that line of argument, he unintentionally shows that he is definitely placed in a childlike or "client" role in relation to Alana, in that he happens not to be her patient but he could have been. If he is hoping that not being his patient means they are in a state of equality, he's wrong. Because the reason she gives for not proceeding is "I think you're unstable." He thanks her for being honest about that, which is fair enough. But then she gives him an indication that she might reconsider in the future, because she says she can't be with him "until that changes". Will's symptoms have gotten worse recently, but Alana doesn't know that, and Will himself is only dimly aware of that. So, saying to him "get better and then maybe we can date" isn't actually that hopeful, because she has *always* avoided being alone in a room with him as long as she's known him. She's *always* thought he was "unstable". If he is just an inherently unstable person (as everyone seems to assume), then what is she actually saying to him? She's saying that if Will can change and become someone he's not, then maybe she will date him. Which is to say, she is never going to date him.
But anyway. She goes to visit him in a way that, frankly and honestly, given the overall context, looks like she's up for some snogs. She then changes her mind (unsurprisingly, considering the Freudian hole he just chopped in his chimney) and leaves. So far, so fair enough. People change their minds, and she's got a right to be confused.
But THEN, she visits him in his classroom the next day and tells him she's confused and she just needs some time and doesn't know what she wants and and and. This is, once again, a situation where he is simultaneously turned down and left hanging on the possibility she might one day become less confused. That's just cruel. It is presented to him in the guise of being "honest", but she's already been honest; she doesn't need to twist the knife like this. At this point, if she wanted to talk about what happened the previous night, she could have taken the not-cruel approach of saying "sorry I rejected you last night, but I have to stand by my decision. You should put the idea of dating me out of your mind permanently, because that's what I'm going to do." It's not like he wouldn't have been delighted if she then changed her mind down the line, after all.
Now, she's come up with an explanation that is in accordance with the evidence as far as it goes, and she's firm about it - he's a killer, but he was in a state of automatism at the time. So she still has a low opinion of him, and she refuses to consider revising it because that would require taking a closer look at Hannibal. Now I know we all say there's no reason to suspect Hannibal, but there's actually no reason not to suspect him either (and I won't go through that litany again about the reasons why I think that, but I firmly believe it's the case). She says to Will "I want to save you," but she refuses to do the one thing she needs to do in order to save him, which is to actually take him seriously and consider that, if a profiler with a 100% clearance rate thinks Hannibal committed the crimes he's accused of, it's worth taking seriously. Are you going to say "but she and Hannibal are old friends, so it would be rude to suspect him?" Well, she and Will are also old friends, so it's also rude not to give his opinion serious consideration. And as has been demonstrated so far, the examination of the evidence has been relatively superficial especially for a suspect who knows how forensics work in general, and knows this forensic team's habits in particular. As soon as Bev actually listened to Will and actually took a closer look, she did find evidence against Hannibal.
And on the one hand she does this wonderful, saintly thing of adopting Will's dogs and being the one to spot what his actual diagnosis is, but she still adheres to the belief that he is a killer. This is wonderful and saintly, but it also means that Alana controls Will's dogs and she also controls his official diagnosis. So as wonderful as she is, she's also a danger to him if she changes her mind. Which she could easily do, because Alana looks down on Will and there isn't any way to deny it. She lavishes him with pity, but she doesn't have respect to give. Will's lawyer has said straight-out that Alana's belief in Will comes across as the squeeings of a besotted schoolgirl rather than an evidence-based professional opinion, and I think one reason she denies her feelings isn't simply noble willingness to lie to protect him - it's because it's coming home to her that advocating for him could be an embarrassment to her. If she comes across professionally as that woman who believes in a really bad guy beyond all reason, she is going to look all manner of stupid.
So as soon as she has any reason to shed belief in him, I expect that she will do so and then the paradox will resolve: Alana isn't actually Will's friend because no respect = no friendship.
posted by tel3path at 1:40 PM on April 1, 2014
I basically think that Alana in some ways represents the mother of a child who has behavioural problems because Daddy's abusing him, and she sobs pathetically "I want to save you" and is bewildered at how helpless she is to make her child better, and she will do everything except listen to him when he says Daddy is abusing him. That's what's so upsetting about her.
I won't labour all my reasons why I think the characters should be more suspicious of Hannibal than they are, because I've said that over and over again, but suffice it to say it does boil down to personal feelings. The characters are so personally enmeshed with each other throughout the show that impartiality is impossible; they even had the Science Bros examining Bev's body when what they *really* need is an outsider's perspective, because right now, they literally wouldn't know a serial killer if they fell over one!
Alana is a deceptively frustrating character, I think. As the discussion you linked pointed out, she seems all warm and nurturing and protective, but then doesn't protect anyone, including herself.
If you go over her conversations with Will in S1, she often conveys double messages to him, such as reassuring him that he's not "broken", but then continuously treating him as if he is. And then, late that night, she goes to Will's house (no small distance), kisses him, then tells him they're incompatible and can't be in a relationship. While the kissing is going on, Will repeatedly reminds her "I'm not your patient," i.e. it's not unethical to have an affair with me. But by choosing that line of argument, he unintentionally shows that he is definitely placed in a childlike or "client" role in relation to Alana, in that he happens not to be her patient but he could have been. If he is hoping that not being his patient means they are in a state of equality, he's wrong. Because the reason she gives for not proceeding is "I think you're unstable." He thanks her for being honest about that, which is fair enough. But then she gives him an indication that she might reconsider in the future, because she says she can't be with him "until that changes". Will's symptoms have gotten worse recently, but Alana doesn't know that, and Will himself is only dimly aware of that. So, saying to him "get better and then maybe we can date" isn't actually that hopeful, because she has *always* avoided being alone in a room with him as long as she's known him. She's *always* thought he was "unstable". If he is just an inherently unstable person (as everyone seems to assume), then what is she actually saying to him? She's saying that if Will can change and become someone he's not, then maybe she will date him. Which is to say, she is never going to date him.
But anyway. She goes to visit him in a way that, frankly and honestly, given the overall context, looks like she's up for some snogs. She then changes her mind (unsurprisingly, considering the Freudian hole he just chopped in his chimney) and leaves. So far, so fair enough. People change their minds, and she's got a right to be confused.
But THEN, she visits him in his classroom the next day and tells him she's confused and she just needs some time and doesn't know what she wants and and and. This is, once again, a situation where he is simultaneously turned down and left hanging on the possibility she might one day become less confused. That's just cruel. It is presented to him in the guise of being "honest", but she's already been honest; she doesn't need to twist the knife like this. At this point, if she wanted to talk about what happened the previous night, she could have taken the not-cruel approach of saying "sorry I rejected you last night, but I have to stand by my decision. You should put the idea of dating me out of your mind permanently, because that's what I'm going to do." It's not like he wouldn't have been delighted if she then changed her mind down the line, after all.
Now, she's come up with an explanation that is in accordance with the evidence as far as it goes, and she's firm about it - he's a killer, but he was in a state of automatism at the time. So she still has a low opinion of him, and she refuses to consider revising it because that would require taking a closer look at Hannibal. Now I know we all say there's no reason to suspect Hannibal, but there's actually no reason not to suspect him either (and I won't go through that litany again about the reasons why I think that, but I firmly believe it's the case). She says to Will "I want to save you," but she refuses to do the one thing she needs to do in order to save him, which is to actually take him seriously and consider that, if a profiler with a 100% clearance rate thinks Hannibal committed the crimes he's accused of, it's worth taking seriously. Are you going to say "but she and Hannibal are old friends, so it would be rude to suspect him?" Well, she and Will are also old friends, so it's also rude not to give his opinion serious consideration. And as has been demonstrated so far, the examination of the evidence has been relatively superficial especially for a suspect who knows how forensics work in general, and knows this forensic team's habits in particular. As soon as Bev actually listened to Will and actually took a closer look, she did find evidence against Hannibal.
And on the one hand she does this wonderful, saintly thing of adopting Will's dogs and being the one to spot what his actual diagnosis is, but she still adheres to the belief that he is a killer. This is wonderful and saintly, but it also means that Alana controls Will's dogs and she also controls his official diagnosis. So as wonderful as she is, she's also a danger to him if she changes her mind. Which she could easily do, because Alana looks down on Will and there isn't any way to deny it. She lavishes him with pity, but she doesn't have respect to give. Will's lawyer has said straight-out that Alana's belief in Will comes across as the squeeings of a besotted schoolgirl rather than an evidence-based professional opinion, and I think one reason she denies her feelings isn't simply noble willingness to lie to protect him - it's because it's coming home to her that advocating for him could be an embarrassment to her. If she comes across professionally as that woman who believes in a really bad guy beyond all reason, she is going to look all manner of stupid.
So as soon as she has any reason to shed belief in him, I expect that she will do so and then the paradox will resolve: Alana isn't actually Will's friend because no respect = no friendship.
posted by tel3path at 1:40 PM on April 1, 2014
And of course, last but not least, I have to admit that Alana represents myself. The version of me that is desperate to be a Good Girl, and also the version of me that is desperate not to be a squeeing besotted schoolgirl who believes in the goodness of an evil man beyond all reason.
The reason I'm hiding behind the sofa and peeking through my fingers at the mere thought of Hannibloom, is that it would be the worst mistake I myself could ever imaginably make - not even jumping into bed with Bluebeard, but doing everything I possibly could to keep my boy-picker in working order and having it lead me straight into bed with Bluebeard precisely *because* I did all the right things.
posted by tel3path at 1:44 PM on April 1, 2014
The reason I'm hiding behind the sofa and peeking through my fingers at the mere thought of Hannibloom, is that it would be the worst mistake I myself could ever imaginably make - not even jumping into bed with Bluebeard, but doing everything I possibly could to keep my boy-picker in working order and having it lead me straight into bed with Bluebeard precisely *because* I did all the right things.
posted by tel3path at 1:44 PM on April 1, 2014
AND
Consider how she tears Jack a new one for putting Will out in the field against her advice.
Hannibal is complicit in keeping Will out in the field. Does she tear him a new one, like she did when he took Abigail out of the hospital? No. But maybe it's inappropriate to challenge another doctor's professional opinion like that, when there's been no actual breach (I don't know).
So maybe she wouldn't ever have said anything. Does she think one iota less of Hannibal for enabling Will's going out in the field? Nope. No. Never. Not a sausage. Still worships Hannibal, still trusts his judgement to the end.
When it comes to court, she points her finger directly at Jack. I see how professional loyalty would stop her from grassing up a fellow doctor; doctors seem to be as afraid of each other as we are of them. But again, does she seem to think one jot less of Hannibal? Nope. Not at all. Never. Not a sausage. Hannibal is God.
posted by tel3path at 2:12 PM on April 1, 2014
Consider how she tears Jack a new one for putting Will out in the field against her advice.
Hannibal is complicit in keeping Will out in the field. Does she tear him a new one, like she did when he took Abigail out of the hospital? No. But maybe it's inappropriate to challenge another doctor's professional opinion like that, when there's been no actual breach (I don't know).
So maybe she wouldn't ever have said anything. Does she think one iota less of Hannibal for enabling Will's going out in the field? Nope. No. Never. Not a sausage. Still worships Hannibal, still trusts his judgement to the end.
When it comes to court, she points her finger directly at Jack. I see how professional loyalty would stop her from grassing up a fellow doctor; doctors seem to be as afraid of each other as we are of them. But again, does she seem to think one jot less of Hannibal? Nope. Not at all. Never. Not a sausage. Hannibal is God.
posted by tel3path at 2:12 PM on April 1, 2014
I can see people being upset because Alana is the character they identify with and they feel she's walking down a path that you know is bad but you could also see yourself walking down - that's pretty close to how I relate to her. I guess I just disagree or have missed some of the things she's supposedly done.
Is Hannibal really responsible for keeping Will out in the field? Explicitly? I thought he was supposed to be watching Will like you watch the canary in the coal mine - if Jack was going to force Will out there, he was supposed to keep Will stable enough to not be damaged by the job. So she can blame Hannibal for not keeping him from crumbling, but I don't know that she would see him as part of the reason that he's been put in danger in the first place.
Does she see Will as broken from the very start? I think she sees him as somebody who shouldn't be doing what Jack is asking of him, but I don't know that if Will had made an overture very early on in the show, she'd have had the same hesitation.
I'm also a little uncertain about the idea that parts of the audience are more angry at Alana than at Jack because she's more vulnerable than he is. I think I'm not entirely clear on what this means. She's more likely to be killed so we get angry because "Grrr, Alana is making stupid choices and we care about you, Alana! Be smarter!"? Because what I'm picking up on is more like, "Oh my god, Alana is such a dumb idiot who can't see the obvious, she deserves to be slaughtered because she's too stupid to see what's in front of her plus she's a slut for sleeping with Hannibal when she should belong to Will."
posted by PussKillian at 2:22 PM on April 1, 2014
Is Hannibal really responsible for keeping Will out in the field? Explicitly? I thought he was supposed to be watching Will like you watch the canary in the coal mine - if Jack was going to force Will out there, he was supposed to keep Will stable enough to not be damaged by the job. So she can blame Hannibal for not keeping him from crumbling, but I don't know that she would see him as part of the reason that he's been put in danger in the first place.
Does she see Will as broken from the very start? I think she sees him as somebody who shouldn't be doing what Jack is asking of him, but I don't know that if Will had made an overture very early on in the show, she'd have had the same hesitation.
I'm also a little uncertain about the idea that parts of the audience are more angry at Alana than at Jack because she's more vulnerable than he is. I think I'm not entirely clear on what this means. She's more likely to be killed so we get angry because "Grrr, Alana is making stupid choices and we care about you, Alana! Be smarter!"? Because what I'm picking up on is more like, "Oh my god, Alana is such a dumb idiot who can't see the obvious, she deserves to be slaughtered because she's too stupid to see what's in front of her plus she's a slut for sleeping with Hannibal when she should belong to Will."
posted by PussKillian at 2:22 PM on April 1, 2014
Also, presumably Hannibal had worked on his seduction and smoke screen on Alana years and years ago. In Show time he's only known Jack for a few months and still using all his tricks and top tier work.
posted by The Whelk at 2:36 PM on April 1, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 2:36 PM on April 1, 2014
People complained about a female character dying in a show to enhance the male leads' story... CBS just made a sitcom that lasted 9 years that did the same thing!
posted by crossoverman at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by crossoverman at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
No, she has explicitly avoided being alone in a room with Will from the beginning because she fancies him. She would always have turned down an overture. I must say, though, that if I'd gone over to throw a lip lock on a guy and he had a Freudian hole that he'd chopped in his chimney to pursue an imaginary animal that we both knew wasn't really trapped there... I'd have changed my mind too.
It's not really any one thing but the whole way she relates to Will that ultimately frustrates and infuriates me.
I've been off Tumblr for a few days but I definitely don't have any sympathy for the idea that she's a slut who is somehow cheating with Hannibal. I would be pretty revolted if she got together with Will, simply because I am turned off by the way she looks down on him.
I also don't have any sympathy for Alana Is A Dumb Idiot, Doesn't See Obvious because, using Beverly as a yardstick, Hannibal's guilt isn't actually that obvious - but a closer look would turn up something interesting. In general, Alana does *not* take a closer look at *anyone*, including Abigail. It's more like she forms an opinion of someone and then everything that follows is forced into confirming that opinion. Hannibal is Adored, he stays Adored. Will is Unstable, he stays Unstable.
posted by tel3path at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2014
It's not really any one thing but the whole way she relates to Will that ultimately frustrates and infuriates me.
I've been off Tumblr for a few days but I definitely don't have any sympathy for the idea that she's a slut who is somehow cheating with Hannibal. I would be pretty revolted if she got together with Will, simply because I am turned off by the way she looks down on him.
I also don't have any sympathy for Alana Is A Dumb Idiot, Doesn't See Obvious because, using Beverly as a yardstick, Hannibal's guilt isn't actually that obvious - but a closer look would turn up something interesting. In general, Alana does *not* take a closer look at *anyone*, including Abigail. It's more like she forms an opinion of someone and then everything that follows is forced into confirming that opinion. Hannibal is Adored, he stays Adored. Will is Unstable, he stays Unstable.
posted by tel3path at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2014
Yeah, like I said, up to now Alana's refusal to consider Hannibal's guilt has been understandable, but that's about to change.
Bev was just killed. The Ripper kills surgically. Hannibal was a surgeon. Bev was killed by someone who knew her (according to Will). The only way Will could have been framed was if someone surgically jammed Abigail's ear in his gullet. Hannibal was a surgeon. Hannibal has, at all times, been the one other person who could have committed the crimes Will is accused of.
I've also banged on about the fact that Alana never properly questions Hannibal's treatment of Will even after it's discovered that Will sought out a brain scan and received a diagnosis of encephalitis long before Alana thought of it, which raises questions about how he got into that situation. Alana, of all people, should be wondering about this inconsistency. She is not. Questioning it would mean questioning Hannibal's competence or, worse, his honesty, and Alana will never do that. At least not when it comes to Will.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on April 1, 2014
Bev was just killed. The Ripper kills surgically. Hannibal was a surgeon. Bev was killed by someone who knew her (according to Will). The only way Will could have been framed was if someone surgically jammed Abigail's ear in his gullet. Hannibal was a surgeon. Hannibal has, at all times, been the one other person who could have committed the crimes Will is accused of.
I've also banged on about the fact that Alana never properly questions Hannibal's treatment of Will even after it's discovered that Will sought out a brain scan and received a diagnosis of encephalitis long before Alana thought of it, which raises questions about how he got into that situation. Alana, of all people, should be wondering about this inconsistency. She is not. Questioning it would mean questioning Hannibal's competence or, worse, his honesty, and Alana will never do that. At least not when it comes to Will.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on April 1, 2014
I'm also a little uncertain about the idea that parts of the audience are more angry at Alana than at Jack because she's more vulnerable than he is. I think I'm not entirely clear on what this means. She's more likely to be killed so we get angry because "Grrr, Alana is making stupid choices and we care about you, Alana! Be smarter!"? Because what I'm picking up on is more like, "Oh my god, Alana is such a dumb idiot who can't see the obvious, she deserves to be slaughtered because she's too stupid to see what's in front of her plus she's a slut for sleeping with Hannibal when she should belong to Will."
That could be. I meant that we-the-audience know that the stakes are higher for her (since she's expendable in a way that Hannibal, Will and Jack aren't), so people are more likely to get het up about her choices, whatever those choices are. But it could be something else that's bothering people.
Maybe it's that we expect the leading lady to be "bestowed" on the hero as his "reward" for heroism -- but Alana's not playing along with that. Instead, she's saying Will is pathetic and keeping her eyes on Hannibal. For me personally, the most disturbing about that is that Hannibal clearly doesn't give a shit about her and makes no bones about it (so I feel like she's in a lot of danger and it freaks me out), but it might also be bothering people because it's structurally subversive. Traditionally, the leading lady is the trophy the hero wins for being the hero -- but in this show, apparently it's the bad guy who's got that trophy.
Does she think one iota less of Hannibal for enabling Will's going out in the field? Nope. No. Never. Not a sausage. Still worships Hannibal, still trusts his judgement to the end.
Because Alana always always always orients herself toward power. Which I can't even get on her case for, nobody wants to be the odd one out or the scapegoat (nobody wants to be Will, lol), and this is her way of making sure she isn't pushed into that role, I think.
What I find depressing about Alana, though, is how low she sets her sights. Hannibal is meanwhile setting himself as the heir to the heights of human civilization, and here's Alana, satisfied with stringing along some dumbfuck in a mental institution and having a bunch of dogs eating out of her hands.
I must say, though, that if I'd gone over to throw a lip lock on a guy and he had a Freudian hole that he'd chopped in his chimney to pursue an imaginary animal that we both knew wasn't really trapped there... I'd have changed my mind too.
Dude, yeah. Smashing holes in the walls is a pretty big red flag. "Oh, here we are out in the wilderness with my huge pack of dogs and my crazed violence! Let's make out!" "Uh, you're totally great but maybe later, though?"
posted by rue72 at 2:53 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
That could be. I meant that we-the-audience know that the stakes are higher for her (since she's expendable in a way that Hannibal, Will and Jack aren't), so people are more likely to get het up about her choices, whatever those choices are. But it could be something else that's bothering people.
Maybe it's that we expect the leading lady to be "bestowed" on the hero as his "reward" for heroism -- but Alana's not playing along with that. Instead, she's saying Will is pathetic and keeping her eyes on Hannibal. For me personally, the most disturbing about that is that Hannibal clearly doesn't give a shit about her and makes no bones about it (so I feel like she's in a lot of danger and it freaks me out), but it might also be bothering people because it's structurally subversive. Traditionally, the leading lady is the trophy the hero wins for being the hero -- but in this show, apparently it's the bad guy who's got that trophy.
Does she think one iota less of Hannibal for enabling Will's going out in the field? Nope. No. Never. Not a sausage. Still worships Hannibal, still trusts his judgement to the end.
Because Alana always always always orients herself toward power. Which I can't even get on her case for, nobody wants to be the odd one out or the scapegoat (nobody wants to be Will, lol), and this is her way of making sure she isn't pushed into that role, I think.
What I find depressing about Alana, though, is how low she sets her sights. Hannibal is meanwhile setting himself as the heir to the heights of human civilization, and here's Alana, satisfied with stringing along some dumbfuck in a mental institution and having a bunch of dogs eating out of her hands.
I must say, though, that if I'd gone over to throw a lip lock on a guy and he had a Freudian hole that he'd chopped in his chimney to pursue an imaginary animal that we both knew wasn't really trapped there... I'd have changed my mind too.
Dude, yeah. Smashing holes in the walls is a pretty big red flag. "Oh, here we are out in the wilderness with my huge pack of dogs and my crazed violence! Let's make out!" "Uh, you're totally great but maybe later, though?"
posted by rue72 at 2:53 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
AND ANOTHER THING
If Alana weren't an FBI agent, I wouldn't be questioning her competence.
If she weren't a forensic psychiatrist, I wouldn't be questioning her competence.
She's both of those things.
Still, her flaws aren't evidence that she's a raving moron or a slut or a dumb idiot. She was lied to a lot by someone she trusted and looked up to. She's not beyond reproach or anything, but the mistakes she makes are only human. Which is terrifying.
posted by tel3path at 2:53 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
If Alana weren't an FBI agent, I wouldn't be questioning her competence.
If she weren't a forensic psychiatrist, I wouldn't be questioning her competence.
She's both of those things.
Still, her flaws aren't evidence that she's a raving moron or a slut or a dumb idiot. She was lied to a lot by someone she trusted and looked up to. She's not beyond reproach or anything, but the mistakes she makes are only human. Which is terrifying.
posted by tel3path at 2:53 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
rue72, the prevailing worldview is that Hannibal thinks relatively highly of Alana, and to my shame (ha!) I didn't really question that. I mean I question the premise that the fact he lays her down on the ground almost tenderly after he bashes her head in, is a signifier of high regard, but I could believe the audience was meant to perceive that.
Can you give examples of signs of contempt and dismissiveness that Alana, not we, should be able to see but hasn't?
Off the top of my head there's: she goes round to see Hannibal, her supposed friend, and the first thing he says to her is "Do you have an appointment?" Real friendly, right?
He takes Abigail out of the institution, which she rightly questions, but she doesn't seem to question what it says about Hannibal's respect for her. It's shocking to her because it's a breach of respect that she otherwise assumes is just there.
He never follows Alana's advice, when she (correctly) identifies something (like Abigail going back to the Hobbs house) as the worst idea in the universe, he overrules her. And Jack always goes with Hannibal's decision. Basically if there's a decision to be made and Hannibal is around the table, Alana might as well just go home. But I guess you could chalk that up to his historical seniority over her, they might fall into that pattern automatically. Which doesn't make him not contemptuous or dismissive, of course.
But the rest of it? Where else is Hannibal contemptuous and dismissive of Alana? What else?
posted by tel3path at 3:13 PM on April 1, 2014
Can you give examples of signs of contempt and dismissiveness that Alana, not we, should be able to see but hasn't?
Off the top of my head there's: she goes round to see Hannibal, her supposed friend, and the first thing he says to her is "Do you have an appointment?" Real friendly, right?
He takes Abigail out of the institution, which she rightly questions, but she doesn't seem to question what it says about Hannibal's respect for her. It's shocking to her because it's a breach of respect that she otherwise assumes is just there.
He never follows Alana's advice, when she (correctly) identifies something (like Abigail going back to the Hobbs house) as the worst idea in the universe, he overrules her. And Jack always goes with Hannibal's decision. Basically if there's a decision to be made and Hannibal is around the table, Alana might as well just go home. But I guess you could chalk that up to his historical seniority over her, they might fall into that pattern automatically. Which doesn't make him not contemptuous or dismissive, of course.
But the rest of it? Where else is Hannibal contemptuous and dismissive of Alana? What else?
posted by tel3path at 3:13 PM on April 1, 2014
MetaFilter: AND ANOTHER THING
posted by homunculus at 3:54 PM on April 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 3:54 PM on April 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
If she comes across professionally as that woman who believes in a really bad guy beyond all reason, she is going to look all manner of stupid.
Poor Alana.
Another aspect of the novel's Dr. Bloom is that he adamantly will not help Jack and Will drive Dolarhyde to suicide, because he abhors it the same way Will abhors murder and Jack abhors disorder. The show has not shown much in the way of what Alana abhors. And maybe that's because the show is much less morally absolute than the novel, but to me it's a huge omission.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:37 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Poor Alana.
Another aspect of the novel's Dr. Bloom is that he adamantly will not help Jack and Will drive Dolarhyde to suicide, because he abhors it the same way Will abhors murder and Jack abhors disorder. The show has not shown much in the way of what Alana abhors. And maybe that's because the show is much less morally absolute than the novel, but to me it's a huge omission.
posted by infinitewindow at 4:37 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
rue72, the prevailing worldview is that Hannibal thinks relatively highly of Alana, and to my shame (ha!) I didn't really question that. I mean I question the premise that the fact he lays her down on the ground almost tenderly after he bashes her head in, is a signifier of high regard, but I could believe the audience was meant to perceive that.
That's it, you did it to me, I bought the whole damn first season on iTunes just now. It's downloading as we speak. When I watched last season the first time through, I spent a good half of the time cringing and frantically trying to minimize the video player because I'm a wimp about gore, and missed a whole lot. So I think I'm going to have to watch things again in order to have an in-depth conversation. I'll have to get back to you with actual quotes/scenes/examples after I'm a bit further into the re-watch?
For now, though, the "gut" reason I feel this way is that Hannibal is usually very aggressive about getting "closer" to people, all the way to literally putting them down his own gullet, but he just seems utterly incurious and uninterested when it comes to Alana. At the Hobbes's house, he didn't even bother to pit her and Abigail against each other or see how they would play things out, he just bashed Alana on the head and got her out of the way as soon as things got "interesting." On the other hand, it seems to me now that it's utterly twisted to think that if a person doesn't want to consume or torment someone, it's a sign of disrespect/disregard -- and my reading of Hannibal's dismissiveness rides on that assumption being true. So I could be wrong and I'll have to watch again?
posted by rue72 at 7:10 PM on April 1, 2014
That's it, you did it to me, I bought the whole damn first season on iTunes just now. It's downloading as we speak. When I watched last season the first time through, I spent a good half of the time cringing and frantically trying to minimize the video player because I'm a wimp about gore, and missed a whole lot. So I think I'm going to have to watch things again in order to have an in-depth conversation. I'll have to get back to you with actual quotes/scenes/examples after I'm a bit further into the re-watch?
For now, though, the "gut" reason I feel this way is that Hannibal is usually very aggressive about getting "closer" to people, all the way to literally putting them down his own gullet, but he just seems utterly incurious and uninterested when it comes to Alana. At the Hobbes's house, he didn't even bother to pit her and Abigail against each other or see how they would play things out, he just bashed Alana on the head and got her out of the way as soon as things got "interesting." On the other hand, it seems to me now that it's utterly twisted to think that if a person doesn't want to consume or torment someone, it's a sign of disrespect/disregard -- and my reading of Hannibal's dismissiveness rides on that assumption being true. So I could be wrong and I'll have to watch again?
posted by rue72 at 7:10 PM on April 1, 2014
I think, perversely, Hannibal needs someone who knows him as Not A Serial Killer and has a good working history of him as like, an ongoing character witness. Alana is the ace in the hole, a respectable, well-known professional who will never, ever suspect him and always insist he's a good guy.
Up until the horrible end when she is proven so horribly wrong and has to go live in a quiet place with no sharp objects.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Up until the horrible end when she is proven so horribly wrong and has to go live in a quiet place with no sharp objects.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
(Like he's got Opera Lady and Fancy Friends, but a famous FBI employee pysch person who refuses to accept he's a murder vampire is worth more than some rich weirdos ..see also the cultivation of Jack as a bestie. Same thing, different stages of the process.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh jeez guys so I just watched the "kill your old family so you can have a new family" episode, which somehow I didn't see the first time around, and it made/is making me cry. Yes, a "Hannibal" episode was too sentimental* for me and got me crying. Le sigh.
*Sentimental isn't the right word really. Really evocative of yearning? The pseudo-families of tripping!Abigail and dog-hoarder Will were the worst, just cannot...
He takes Abigail out of the institution, which she rightly questions, but she doesn't seem to question what it says about Hannibal's respect for her. It's shocking to her because it's a breach of respect that she otherwise assumes is just there.
This scene was in the episode I just watched, and I take it back, Hannibal seems to genuinely like and respect Alana there (for him, anyway). He actually listened when she talked, and he did still lie/manipulate her but in a normal soft-peddling "you were right, dear!" way, not a horrifyingly sadistic way. And that fight (perversely?) made me think that they are actually a good pair, because after working herself into a lather yelling at Hannibal, Alana ends her rant with "and it was so rude!" Which is when Hannibal starts soft-peddling things, of course. And in that same episode, he did make her the pseudo-mother to his pseudo-child, which is a kind of respect, too, I guess.
I'm realizing why I've never warmed up to Alana myself, though. She keeps saying what she's "going" to do or what is "going" to happen, as she's actually doing it or it's actually happening. She also keeps talking about herself in the third person. It's not really doublespeak or even confusing, but it's such a distant way of speaking, which feels incongruous because her manner is so (ostensibly) open and warm. That mismatch makes her feel...I don't know, slippery?
What is the role of emotion in this show, do you think? Everyone always seems to be trying to be so emotionally enigmatic -- why? Alana is possibly the most demonstrative character, but her emotions also seem meaningless because she doesn't take them into account at all w/r/t her beliefs or actions -- are emotions meaningless or "dirty" or something on this show?
posted by rue72 at 10:10 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
*Sentimental isn't the right word really. Really evocative of yearning? The pseudo-families of tripping!Abigail and dog-hoarder Will were the worst, just cannot...
He takes Abigail out of the institution, which she rightly questions, but she doesn't seem to question what it says about Hannibal's respect for her. It's shocking to her because it's a breach of respect that she otherwise assumes is just there.
This scene was in the episode I just watched, and I take it back, Hannibal seems to genuinely like and respect Alana there (for him, anyway). He actually listened when she talked, and he did still lie/manipulate her but in a normal soft-peddling "you were right, dear!" way, not a horrifyingly sadistic way. And that fight (perversely?) made me think that they are actually a good pair, because after working herself into a lather yelling at Hannibal, Alana ends her rant with "and it was so rude!" Which is when Hannibal starts soft-peddling things, of course. And in that same episode, he did make her the pseudo-mother to his pseudo-child, which is a kind of respect, too, I guess.
I'm realizing why I've never warmed up to Alana myself, though. She keeps saying what she's "going" to do or what is "going" to happen, as she's actually doing it or it's actually happening. She also keeps talking about herself in the third person. It's not really doublespeak or even confusing, but it's such a distant way of speaking, which feels incongruous because her manner is so (ostensibly) open and warm. That mismatch makes her feel...I don't know, slippery?
What is the role of emotion in this show, do you think? Everyone always seems to be trying to be so emotionally enigmatic -- why? Alana is possibly the most demonstrative character, but her emotions also seem meaningless because she doesn't take them into account at all w/r/t her beliefs or actions -- are emotions meaningless or "dirty" or something on this show?
posted by rue72 at 10:10 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh jeez guys so I just watched the "kill your old family so you can have a new family" episode, which somehow I didn't see the first time around
That episode never aired on NBC.
posted by crossoverman at 11:13 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
That episode never aired on NBC.
posted by crossoverman at 11:13 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh jeez guys so I just watched the "kill your old family so you can have a new family" episode, which somehow I didn't see the first time around, and it made/is making me cry. Yes, a "Hannibal" episode was too sentimental* for me and got me crying. Le sigh.
The "kids shooting people" thing that's necessary to the plot caused either Bryan Fuller or the network or both to get cold feet. They didn't air that episode on NBC, though it did air in full in other countries. Instead for the US, they just cut out all the season arc/character stuff into a few brief clips and put those on the web. It's available to stream on Amazon and is on the bluray unedited though of course.
I think that decision was pretty understandable at the time. Kind of a shame, really. I do think Molly Shannon was very good in her part, and we lost a moment of Beverly being a badass until the entire episode was available. Though that said, I think it's one of the weaker case-of-the-week bits in the first season. The arc stuff in that episode is all great though.
posted by sparkletone at 11:54 PM on April 1, 2014
The "kids shooting people" thing that's necessary to the plot caused either Bryan Fuller or the network or both to get cold feet. They didn't air that episode on NBC, though it did air in full in other countries. Instead for the US, they just cut out all the season arc/character stuff into a few brief clips and put those on the web. It's available to stream on Amazon and is on the bluray unedited though of course.
I think that decision was pretty understandable at the time. Kind of a shame, really. I do think Molly Shannon was very good in her part, and we lost a moment of Beverly being a badass until the entire episode was available. Though that said, I think it's one of the weaker case-of-the-week bits in the first season. The arc stuff in that episode is all great though.
posted by sparkletone at 11:54 PM on April 1, 2014
Ooh, yeah that one. Notice he casts Alana as the stand-in mother for tripping balls!Abigail at the dinner table.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:05 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 12:05 AM on April 2, 2014
In the cut scenes, he had been trying and failing to call Will to get him to come over, but Alana shows up instead.
posted by tel3path at 12:06 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by tel3path at 12:06 AM on April 2, 2014
Oh my god, he really DOES have a mural with pictures of Will surrounded by glittery hearts!
posted by lovecrafty at 12:08 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 12:08 AM on April 2, 2014
And he really DID want them all to become a Murder Family.
posted by tel3path at 12:15 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by tel3path at 12:15 AM on April 2, 2014
I wonder how much of his book background they're going to keep. They've already mentioned his aunt. But the whole thing with his sister took place during WW2, which is out of the question for the show. Plus it's all tied up in my mind with the terrible horrible stupid thing that happened with Clarice, so I'm not super looking forward to it if they go that route.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:21 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 12:21 AM on April 2, 2014
Don't believe much has been stated about intentions there. Obviously the Nazi stuff is right out. I don't think Mischa's come up, just the uncle because of the Bowie thing.
posted by sparkletone at 12:36 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 12:36 AM on April 2, 2014
I think that decision was pretty understandable at the time. Kind of a shame, really. I do think Molly Shannon was very good in her part, and we lost a moment of Beverly being a badass until the entire episode was available. Though that said, I think it's one of the weaker case-of-the-week bits in the first season. The arc stuff in that episode is all great though.
Thanks guys, that makes sense! I watch everything via Hulu/Netflix/iTunes rather than cable, so I see things on a lag and don't usually know about issues related to the broadcast. That episode (1.04: Ceuf) is apparently included in the iTunes Season 1 pass now, though.
I didn't get much of a feel for Molly Shannon's character or the abducted kids, but on the other hand, it was OK with me that that story was sacrificed/trimmed somewhat, because the episode had so many other fantastic/fascinating things happening with the mains. I'm delighted they decided in favor of keeping that only-interesting-for-character-reasons-but-hilarious scene in the morgue where they all talk about being the oldest/middle/only child. Beverly was sisterly in the best sense in the whole episode, too -- I would have watched it just for that. The ending montage of everybody faking family was haunting as hell, though. Soul-withering.
I wonder how much of his book background they're going to keep. They've already mentioned his aunt. But the whole thing with his sister took place during WW2, which is out of the question for the show. Plus it's all tied up in my mind with the terrible horrible stupid thing that happened with Clarice, so I'm not super looking forward to it if they go that route.
In "Ceuf," Hannibal mentioned being orphaned young and being adopted by an uncle (Rudolpho? maybe?) at 16. Does that sound in keeping with his backstory in the books? I haven't read any of them (or seen any movies aside from Manhunter and Red Dragon). Does his backstory come significantly into play?
posted by rue72 at 12:41 AM on April 2, 2014
Thanks guys, that makes sense! I watch everything via Hulu/Netflix/iTunes rather than cable, so I see things on a lag and don't usually know about issues related to the broadcast. That episode (1.04: Ceuf) is apparently included in the iTunes Season 1 pass now, though.
I didn't get much of a feel for Molly Shannon's character or the abducted kids, but on the other hand, it was OK with me that that story was sacrificed/trimmed somewhat, because the episode had so many other fantastic/fascinating things happening with the mains. I'm delighted they decided in favor of keeping that only-interesting-for-character-reasons-but-hilarious scene in the morgue where they all talk about being the oldest/middle/only child. Beverly was sisterly in the best sense in the whole episode, too -- I would have watched it just for that. The ending montage of everybody faking family was haunting as hell, though. Soul-withering.
I wonder how much of his book background they're going to keep. They've already mentioned his aunt. But the whole thing with his sister took place during WW2, which is out of the question for the show. Plus it's all tied up in my mind with the terrible horrible stupid thing that happened with Clarice, so I'm not super looking forward to it if they go that route.
In "Ceuf," Hannibal mentioned being orphaned young and being adopted by an uncle (Rudolpho? maybe?) at 16. Does that sound in keeping with his backstory in the books? I haven't read any of them (or seen any movies aside from Manhunter and Red Dragon). Does his backstory come significantly into play?
posted by rue72 at 12:41 AM on April 2, 2014
In "Ceuf," Hannibal mentioned being orphaned young and being adopted by an uncle (Rudolpho? maybe?) at 16. Does that sound in keeping with his backstory in the books?
Yes, that fits. The backstory given mostly in the (by all accounts execrable) Hannibal Rising. Hannibal and his sister were captured by Nazis. They ate her. He later ended up at an orphanage but was eventually taken in by his uncle Count Robert and his aunt Lady Murasaki. The aunt's been mentioned off hand in the show. The uncle's the one Fuller wants to get Bowie for.
The two I've read (Red Dragon, SotL)... His backstory isn't really mentioned much. You're just told he's a cannibal psychiatrist and various plot-relevant (and a few minor) details about some of his exploits as such. One of the interesting things with the show is that they're playing in unexplored-by-anyone territory where Hannibal is out in the wild practicing both his cannibalism and his psychiatry when he's at the height of both. This isn't Hannibal rising. He's already risen. It's just Hannibal.
Obviously they'd have to jettison the nazi stuff if they want to explore his youth on the show. The timeline wouldn't make any sense at all. I'm sure they could invent some substitute trauma for what happened with Mischa but I'd kind of prefer they didn't.
Hannibal Rising is where almost all of that comes from and was written by Harris basically at gun point. Dino DeLaurentis said he was going to make a movie about young Hannibal with or without Harris' input. The third novel was also kind of written at gun point because there was heavy, heavy, heavy demand for Clarice to be the lead again after the success of the movie.
That said, I definitely would recommend Red Dragon and SotL if you're so inclined. They hold up quite nicely, in my opinion. I think even the third book could've been good if Harris had been let off the chain to do what he wanted. I always got the impression that he wanted to switch up protagonists again, much like how Will Graham doesn't come up in SotL at all. Instead we got, "Fine? You want more Clarice? Fuck you. Hope you choke on it."
posted by sparkletone at 1:01 AM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes, that fits. The backstory given mostly in the (by all accounts execrable) Hannibal Rising. Hannibal and his sister were captured by Nazis. They ate her. He later ended up at an orphanage but was eventually taken in by his uncle Count Robert and his aunt Lady Murasaki. The aunt's been mentioned off hand in the show. The uncle's the one Fuller wants to get Bowie for.
The two I've read (Red Dragon, SotL)... His backstory isn't really mentioned much. You're just told he's a cannibal psychiatrist and various plot-relevant (and a few minor) details about some of his exploits as such. One of the interesting things with the show is that they're playing in unexplored-by-anyone territory where Hannibal is out in the wild practicing both his cannibalism and his psychiatry when he's at the height of both. This isn't Hannibal rising. He's already risen. It's just Hannibal.
Obviously they'd have to jettison the nazi stuff if they want to explore his youth on the show. The timeline wouldn't make any sense at all. I'm sure they could invent some substitute trauma for what happened with Mischa but I'd kind of prefer they didn't.
Hannibal Rising is where almost all of that comes from and was written by Harris basically at gun point. Dino DeLaurentis said he was going to make a movie about young Hannibal with or without Harris' input. The third novel was also kind of written at gun point because there was heavy, heavy, heavy demand for Clarice to be the lead again after the success of the movie.
That said, I definitely would recommend Red Dragon and SotL if you're so inclined. They hold up quite nicely, in my opinion. I think even the third book could've been good if Harris had been let off the chain to do what he wanted. I always got the impression that he wanted to switch up protagonists again, much like how Will Graham doesn't come up in SotL at all. Instead we got, "Fine? You want more Clarice? Fuck you. Hope you choke on it."
posted by sparkletone at 1:01 AM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
The sister and the cannibalistic deserting soldiers stuff comes up in Hannibal. Red Dragon and SotL are quite good. Hannibal is... not so much.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:04 AM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 2:04 AM on April 2, 2014
Obviously they'd have to jettison the nazi stuff if they want to explore his youth on the show. The timeline wouldn't make any sense at all. I'm sure they could invent some substitute trauma for what happened with Mischa but I'd kind of prefer they didn't.
I hope they skip it, too. Some things are just inexplicable. Becoming a cannibalistic psychiatrist is one of them. Besides, making things tidy and understandable only makes them less frightening, and this *is* a horror story.
posted by rue72 at 2:06 AM on April 2, 2014
I hope they skip it, too. Some things are just inexplicable. Becoming a cannibalistic psychiatrist is one of them. Besides, making things tidy and understandable only makes them less frightening, and this *is* a horror story.
posted by rue72 at 2:06 AM on April 2, 2014
...the orderly said "Just say the words."
Not "Just say the word."
What he meant was, "Incriminate yourself."
Why? The best explanation I can find off the top of my head is he wants to keep Will inside and under his control.
Will says it, he knows he's being entrapped, he's not stupid.
posted by tel3path at 5:55 AM on April 2, 2014
Not "Just say the word."
What he meant was, "Incriminate yourself."
Why? The best explanation I can find off the top of my head is he wants to keep Will inside and under his control.
Will says it, he knows he's being entrapped, he's not stupid.
posted by tel3path at 5:55 AM on April 2, 2014
Besides, making things tidy and understandable only makes them less frightening, and this *is* a horror story.
Yes, this is exactly. I don't need Hannibal to have had a happy go-lucky childhood in which nothing bad happened. However as monsters go, he's much scarier if he's .... just like this and there's no obvious, cartoonish childhood trauma to explain it.
posted by sparkletone at 8:24 AM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes, this is exactly. I don't need Hannibal to have had a happy go-lucky childhood in which nothing bad happened. However as monsters go, he's much scarier if he's .... just like this and there's no obvious, cartoonish childhood trauma to explain it.
posted by sparkletone at 8:24 AM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Alana is possibly the most demonstrative character, but her emotions also seem meaningless because she doesn't take them into account at all w/r/t her beliefs or actions -- are emotions meaningless or "dirty" or something on this show?
That's a tough question, but I think the difficulty of integrating reason with emotion is quite a noticeable theme.
We have a number of characters who think they're rational but aren't, which is normal.
So far, the three characters who are best at integrating reason and emotion are Beverly, Hannibal, and Will.
The Science Brothers have abundant capacity for reason, but they tend to sacrifice it to immaturity, jostling for rightness, etc. Now that Beverly's gone they might have to grow up a little because she won't be around to do as much of their thinking for them.
Alana is totally at war with herself, totally. In her mind, reason and emotion are completely opposed. She engages in an almighty struggle to let reason run the show, but her emotions invariably take the wheel at the worst possible moment.
I'd say the exemplar of Alana's internal conflict is the automatism defense. Considering her knowledge state, and the actual reality of Will's condition, it's a completely rational and evidence-based explanation for his supposed crimes. The only problem is that the way she talks about it is very discomfiting. All that skipping around with the dogs in 201? Saying confidently that the automatism defense will have Will out of jail and back home in no time? Her mood is completely dissonant with the reality of the situation, and her estimation of the chances of getting Will out are... optimistic, to say the least, and this is in spite of the fact that if her knowledge state were true, she'd be right about the automatism (if you see what I mean). In those circumstances, that kind of cheerful certainty suggests she's in denial. Overall, she has an air of desperate rationalisation about it.
posted by tel3path at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2014
That's a tough question, but I think the difficulty of integrating reason with emotion is quite a noticeable theme.
We have a number of characters who think they're rational but aren't, which is normal.
So far, the three characters who are best at integrating reason and emotion are Beverly, Hannibal, and Will.
The Science Brothers have abundant capacity for reason, but they tend to sacrifice it to immaturity, jostling for rightness, etc. Now that Beverly's gone they might have to grow up a little because she won't be around to do as much of their thinking for them.
Alana is totally at war with herself, totally. In her mind, reason and emotion are completely opposed. She engages in an almighty struggle to let reason run the show, but her emotions invariably take the wheel at the worst possible moment.
I'd say the exemplar of Alana's internal conflict is the automatism defense. Considering her knowledge state, and the actual reality of Will's condition, it's a completely rational and evidence-based explanation for his supposed crimes. The only problem is that the way she talks about it is very discomfiting. All that skipping around with the dogs in 201? Saying confidently that the automatism defense will have Will out of jail and back home in no time? Her mood is completely dissonant with the reality of the situation, and her estimation of the chances of getting Will out are... optimistic, to say the least, and this is in spite of the fact that if her knowledge state were true, she'd be right about the automatism (if you see what I mean). In those circumstances, that kind of cheerful certainty suggests she's in denial. Overall, she has an air of desperate rationalisation about it.
posted by tel3path at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2014
And now I just read a fan speculation that Alana is the Red Dragon, with her red scaly outfits she's been wearing lately.
I mean I don't think so
but
the first lecture she gives is about the Tooth Fairy, so...
gee I like the idea.
They pointed out that it would explain exactly why she'd never been alone in a room with him...
posted by tel3path at 12:22 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mean I don't think so
but
the first lecture she gives is about the Tooth Fairy, so...
gee I like the idea.
They pointed out that it would explain exactly why she'd never been alone in a room with him...
posted by tel3path at 12:22 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ohhh man, has she ever mentioned William Blake?
posted by lovecrafty at 12:27 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 12:27 PM on April 2, 2014
...the timeline doesn't fit, if Red Dragon is to be told in Season 4.
Otherwise, you could see it as her being temporarily mellowed by Hannibloom the same way Dolarhyde is mellowed by Reba, but it doesn't last...
posted by tel3path at 12:29 PM on April 2, 2014
Otherwise, you could see it as her being temporarily mellowed by Hannibloom the same way Dolarhyde is mellowed by Reba, but it doesn't last...
posted by tel3path at 12:29 PM on April 2, 2014
And poor Will is going to be like "WTF is it with all these serial killers crushing on me I need a dating coach I just want to find myself a nice girl with no bodies in her basement"
posted by tel3path at 12:30 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 12:30 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's not likely. I think if they gender swap one of the canon killers, it'd be more likely to be Jame Gumb than Dolarhyde.
posted by lovecrafty at 12:30 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 12:30 PM on April 2, 2014
And now I just read a fan speculation that Alana is the Red Dragon, with her red scaly outfits she's been wearing lately.
NOPE. That is cuckoo conspiracy theory territory. There is no way they will go that route. Not happening.
Gender-swapping one of the big serial killers is an interesting idea though, and I could definitely see that taking place. I'm not sure which I find more intriguing... Though my first instinct is to agree with lovecrafty that a flip of Jame Gumb would be the more interesting one. A woman making a literal "man suit."
the first lecture she gives is about the Tooth Fairy, so...
No, that's Will's first lecture. The empath sequence at the start of the pilot is the first Dolarhyde killing and then we go to Will's lecture hall. He ends it with, "Show me your design."
posted by sparkletone at 1:07 PM on April 2, 2014
NOPE. That is cuckoo conspiracy theory territory. There is no way they will go that route. Not happening.
Gender-swapping one of the big serial killers is an interesting idea though, and I could definitely see that taking place. I'm not sure which I find more intriguing... Though my first instinct is to agree with lovecrafty that a flip of Jame Gumb would be the more interesting one. A woman making a literal "man suit."
the first lecture she gives is about the Tooth Fairy, so...
No, that's Will's first lecture. The empath sequence at the start of the pilot is the first Dolarhyde killing and then we go to Will's lecture hall. He ends it with, "Show me your design."
posted by sparkletone at 1:07 PM on April 2, 2014
So much of Dolarhyde is tied up in his extremely imposing hyper-masculine physicality, which is at odds with his own internal perception of himself.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:13 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 1:13 PM on April 2, 2014
Nuh uh. She's talking about suck marks inflicted during bitey murders. That's the Tooth Fairy.
posted by tel3path at 1:25 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by tel3path at 1:25 PM on April 2, 2014
Hmm, are there any female serial killers in real life ?
posted by Pendragon at 1:57 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by Pendragon at 1:57 PM on April 2, 2014
Hmm, are there any female serial killers in real life ?
WikiPedia List :American_female_serial_killers
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 2:05 PM on April 2, 2014
WikiPedia List :American_female_serial_killers
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 2:05 PM on April 2, 2014
Nuh uh. She's talking about suck marks inflicted during bitey murders. That's the Tooth Fairy.
That's a different lecture, yes, but it's still Will. That one is 1x04, about 17:30 in the unedited version. Jack comes to visit him and dismisses his class early. Cleolinda mentions it as a shout out in her recap.
I can't recall ever seeing Alana lecture on screen, though I think there's one scene in S1 somewhere where Will or Jack (or both) visit her as a class is filing out.
posted by sparkletone at 2:10 PM on April 2, 2014
That's a different lecture, yes, but it's still Will. That one is 1x04, about 17:30 in the unedited version. Jack comes to visit him and dismisses his class early. Cleolinda mentions it as a shout out in her recap.
I can't recall ever seeing Alana lecture on screen, though I think there's one scene in S1 somewhere where Will or Jack (or both) visit her as a class is filing out.
posted by sparkletone at 2:10 PM on April 2, 2014
...the orderly said "Just say the words."
Not "Just say the word."
Maybe when Will was telling people that Hannibal is a murderer, Brown believed him? Maybe the words Brown wanted to hear were that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper -- that's what he asked Hannibal as soon as he strung him up, after all.
I think that Brown now has proof that Will isn't a serial killer or even really a murderer, and so Will won't be interesting or fun for him anymore (except as a toy, maybe). Now that Brown's been apprehended, he won't really have any power within BSHCI anyway -- though maybe he'll become a patient?!
So much of Dolarhyde is tied up in his extremely imposing hyper-masculine physicality, which is at odds with his own internal perception of himself.
I think that Dolarhyde's "thing" is that he thinks he's weak, but he's really strong. That could describe a woman, too -- and actually, it might make more sense (socially) for a woman to underestimate or discount her own physical power, just like Dolarhyde's obsession with his looks/attractiveness might make more sense if the character were a woman.
Dolarhyde could work well gender-swapped. I would personally prefer to see the character as a man, though, because I think it would be interesting to see his version of masculinity in contrast to Hannibal's, especially if he's in thrall to Hannibal.
I can't recall ever seeing Alana lecture on screen, so I think there's one scene in S1 somewhere where Will or Jack (or both) visit her as a class is filing out.
We've seen Alana lecture -- it was to Will's class, and maybe it was from his notes, too, but Alana was filling in for him. Jack came to class looking for Will, and found Alana giving a lecture about sucking/bite marks, in what sounded to me like a deliberate shout-out to the tooth fairy. I'll have to go back and look for the specific episode/scene -- it's pretty early on though, somewhere in 1.01 or 1.02 or 1.03.
I don't think that a lot of Alana's other characterization fits well for the Tooth Fairy, though -- mostly because she seems so unselfconsciously flirty, and she also doesn't ever seem to think much about anything physical/body-related. She doesn't even seem to take much notice of Hannibal's ridiculous food. And she always wears those boring wrap dresses (yes, they're flattering, but she could stand to mix it up a bit. What does her closet look like, just a long row of wrap dresses?). Maybe they'll blind her and have her be the Reba character (please no).
And poor Will is going to be like "WTF is it with all these serial killers crushing on me I need a dating coach I just want to find myself a nice girl with no bodies in her basement"
This cracked me up. I was just thinking today, Will is such psycho-bait. For all we know, he's not even a good profiler, he just cannot step ten feet without all the psychos in the vicinity veering right toward him and trying to chat him up.
posted by rue72 at 2:29 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not "Just say the word."
Maybe when Will was telling people that Hannibal is a murderer, Brown believed him? Maybe the words Brown wanted to hear were that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper -- that's what he asked Hannibal as soon as he strung him up, after all.
I think that Brown now has proof that Will isn't a serial killer or even really a murderer, and so Will won't be interesting or fun for him anymore (except as a toy, maybe). Now that Brown's been apprehended, he won't really have any power within BSHCI anyway -- though maybe he'll become a patient?!
So much of Dolarhyde is tied up in his extremely imposing hyper-masculine physicality, which is at odds with his own internal perception of himself.
I think that Dolarhyde's "thing" is that he thinks he's weak, but he's really strong. That could describe a woman, too -- and actually, it might make more sense (socially) for a woman to underestimate or discount her own physical power, just like Dolarhyde's obsession with his looks/attractiveness might make more sense if the character were a woman.
Dolarhyde could work well gender-swapped. I would personally prefer to see the character as a man, though, because I think it would be interesting to see his version of masculinity in contrast to Hannibal's, especially if he's in thrall to Hannibal.
I can't recall ever seeing Alana lecture on screen, so I think there's one scene in S1 somewhere where Will or Jack (or both) visit her as a class is filing out.
We've seen Alana lecture -- it was to Will's class, and maybe it was from his notes, too, but Alana was filling in for him. Jack came to class looking for Will, and found Alana giving a lecture about sucking/bite marks, in what sounded to me like a deliberate shout-out to the tooth fairy. I'll have to go back and look for the specific episode/scene -- it's pretty early on though, somewhere in 1.01 or 1.02 or 1.03.
I don't think that a lot of Alana's other characterization fits well for the Tooth Fairy, though -- mostly because she seems so unselfconsciously flirty, and she also doesn't ever seem to think much about anything physical/body-related. She doesn't even seem to take much notice of Hannibal's ridiculous food. And she always wears those boring wrap dresses (yes, they're flattering, but she could stand to mix it up a bit. What does her closet look like, just a long row of wrap dresses?). Maybe they'll blind her and have her be the Reba character (please no).
And poor Will is going to be like "WTF is it with all these serial killers crushing on me I need a dating coach I just want to find myself a nice girl with no bodies in her basement"
This cracked me up. I was just thinking today, Will is such psycho-bait. For all we know, he's not even a good profiler, he just cannot step ten feet without all the psychos in the vicinity veering right toward him and trying to chat him up.
posted by rue72 at 2:29 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seductive harpsichord is seductive. Somehow, I don't think his theremin skills work quite so well with the ladies (assuming he wasn't being... metaphorical with Tobias about that).
posted by sparkletone at 2:46 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 2:46 PM on April 2, 2014
Yeah, I wasn't being too serious, just enjoying the idea. Would be hilarious though.
posted by tel3path at 2:54 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by tel3path at 2:54 PM on April 2, 2014
OMG Hannibloom I'm going to be sick.
I WISH ALANA WOULD READ THIS AND WAKE UP
MAYBE IF I CAPSLOCK HARD ENOUGH SHE'LL HEAR US
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I WISH ALANA WOULD READ THIS AND WAKE UP
MAYBE IF I CAPSLOCK HARD ENOUGH SHE'LL HEAR US
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
IF WE YELL LOUD ENOUGH SHE CAN HEAR US ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SCREEN.
HANNIBAL IS NOT FOR TOUCHING.
posted by The Whelk at 3:00 PM on April 2, 2014
HANNIBAL IS NOT FOR TOUCHING.
posted by The Whelk at 3:00 PM on April 2, 2014
I was comforting myself with the fact that we know Alana points a gun at him at some point this season because of the two-minute trailer that came out before it started airing... Forgetting, of course that she looked TERRIFIED in that shot. But now that I revisit that trailer:
1) WOW. The Slenderman shot with Bev turning around is in it, though you can't quite tell who it is of course.
2) ... Zaprudering that bit with Alana a little bit, it's pretty clear that it's Hannibal post-fight with Jack that is terrifying her. So, uh, shit.
posted by sparkletone at 3:13 PM on April 2, 2014
1) WOW. The Slenderman shot with Bev turning around is in it, though you can't quite tell who it is of course.
2) ... Zaprudering that bit with Alana a little bit, it's pretty clear that it's Hannibal post-fight with Jack that is terrifying her. So, uh, shit.
posted by sparkletone at 3:13 PM on April 2, 2014
Ohh, wait wait wait. Gender-swapped Dolarhyde might work. In the novel, he is also a rapist, and Fuller has said they won't be telling rape stories on Hannibal. (Though the scene with the forced intubation and the creepy face caress after seemed really rapey to me...)
posted by lovecrafty at 3:28 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 3:28 PM on April 2, 2014
Somehow, I don't think his theremin skills work quite so well with the ladies
In Hannibal it's mentioned that he owns an original Theremin made by Leon Theremin himself. He doesn't have it to woo the ladies but because it is a fine, original, and unique thing.
posted by localroger at 3:29 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
In Hannibal it's mentioned that he owns an original Theremin made by Leon Theremin himself. He doesn't have it to woo the ladies but because it is a fine, original, and unique thing.
posted by localroger at 3:29 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
OKAY SO here is my case for a gender swapped Red Dragon.
We're going to have to change so much to make Dolerahyde work, his job, how he's caught, the sexual violence. So I think they took all of the super fictional tics and gave them to Brown so they can say they did The Red Dragon ( those reflective goggles where NOT an accident) and be freed up to create a totally different interpretation of Dolerahyde.
And I think mixing up Werid ideas of masculinity/strength with a female character would be REALLY INTERESTING.
total Newb viewer finished season one today and said to me he liked how it's a prestige TV show with so middle aged white guys having problems with WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MAN. Wil's used to people treating him like the beta dog and Hannibal could care less if you think he's prissy or affected.
posted by The Whelk at 3:34 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
We're going to have to change so much to make Dolerahyde work, his job, how he's caught, the sexual violence. So I think they took all of the super fictional tics and gave them to Brown so they can say they did The Red Dragon ( those reflective goggles where NOT an accident) and be freed up to create a totally different interpretation of Dolerahyde.
And I think mixing up Werid ideas of masculinity/strength with a female character would be REALLY INTERESTING.
total Newb viewer finished season one today and said to me he liked how it's a prestige TV show with so middle aged white guys having problems with WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MAN. Wil's used to people treating him like the beta dog and Hannibal could care less if you think he's prissy or affected.
posted by The Whelk at 3:34 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mean I don't think they will, but I don't think it's totally impossible to make work.
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 3:38 PM on April 2, 2014
ER with NO middle aged white guys having concerns about what it means to be a man.
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on April 2, 2014
I thought that someone else was coming down the lane before Dolarhyde.
And how are you still posting in this thread? I love it.
posted by Sphinx at 3:42 PM on April 2, 2014
And how are you still posting in this thread? I love it.
posted by Sphinx at 3:42 PM on April 2, 2014
I subsist entirely on fannish speculation and Cheetos
(I'm more worried about the handling of possible trans issues with Gumb cause that was a problem even in the movie but it's also like, years and years away and I give this show all the benefits of all the doubts.
Although I still want a canon queer character who isn't dead or a serial killer but I want that in all shows)
posted by The Whelk at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
(I'm more worried about the handling of possible trans issues with Gumb cause that was a problem even in the movie but it's also like, years and years away and I give this show all the benefits of all the doubts.
Although I still want a canon queer character who isn't dead or a serial killer but I want that in all shows)
posted by The Whelk at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I hope they make Gumb's reasons for sewing a skin suit not related to any trans issues. That's the one sour note in Silence.
Although I still want a canon queer character who isn't dead or a serial killer but I want that in all shows)
Well, there is Margot Ver-- oh wait. No. Not a good example.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:08 PM on April 2, 2014
Although I still want a canon queer character who isn't dead or a serial killer but I want that in all shows)
Well, there is Margot Ver-- oh wait. No. Not a good example.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:08 PM on April 2, 2014
Yeah, I hope they make Gumb's reasons for sewing a skin suit not related to any trans issues. That's the one sour note in Silence.
The film says he thinks he's a transsexual but that he's not really a transsexual. I know it's not a great defence and I think Fuller will go to pains to make sure he avoids those problems, but the film doesn't think he's transsexual.
The problem, of course, at the time of SOTL's release was that trans* characters were invisible in Hollywood films - and Jame Gumb did not help. I don't think Hollywood has really changed that much in regards to depicting trans* characters - and I'm sure Fuller is well aware of that.
posted by crossoverman at 5:56 PM on April 2, 2014
The film says he thinks he's a transsexual but that he's not really a transsexual. I know it's not a great defence and I think Fuller will go to pains to make sure he avoids those problems, but the film doesn't think he's transsexual.
The problem, of course, at the time of SOTL's release was that trans* characters were invisible in Hollywood films - and Jame Gumb did not help. I don't think Hollywood has really changed that much in regards to depicting trans* characters - and I'm sure Fuller is well aware of that.
posted by crossoverman at 5:56 PM on April 2, 2014
A female Gumb full of crazy body dysmorphia sewing skins in an attempt to achieve an unachievable level of beauty? You could hang some of the Red Dragon "becoming" hoopla on that character, too.
(and, yeah, there's a figleaf in both the book and movie about 'this person is totally not really trans because trans people aren't particularly known for being crazy violent killers', but it's not much.)
posted by rmd1023 at 5:56 PM on April 2, 2014
(and, yeah, there's a figleaf in both the book and movie about 'this person is totally not really trans because trans people aren't particularly known for being crazy violent killers', but it's not much.)
posted by rmd1023 at 5:56 PM on April 2, 2014
Totally agree that the trans handling in SotL is dodgy, though at the same time that it was there in 1988 reads as relatively, sort of half-assedly progressive? Like you can at least tell that Harris did some research and I'm glad for that at least.
I too feel pretty certain Fuller won't put the show in that territory without being careful.
posted by sparkletone at 6:12 PM on April 2, 2014
I too feel pretty certain Fuller won't put the show in that territory without being careful.
posted by sparkletone at 6:12 PM on April 2, 2014
Oh it's super dodgy but progressive for the era. Which, above, why I think something careful could be made.
posted by The Whelk at 6:21 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 6:21 PM on April 2, 2014
Although I still want a canon queer character who isn't dead or a serial killer but I want that in all shows)
Zeller and Price get together in a fit of passion after narrowly avoiding death as Hannibal is finally brought to justice.
posted by sparkletone at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Zeller and Price get together in a fit of passion after narrowly avoiding death as Hannibal is finally brought to justice.
posted by sparkletone at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
So much of Dolarhyde is tied up in his extremely imposing hyper-masculine physicality, which is at odds with his own internal perception of himself.
Thinking more about this...what would being "hyper masculine" mean on this show? (Well, and also in general, but also on this show in particular?)
I don't think Gumb's story is really all that much about gender, so I don't think it would be hard for them to tackle in a more progressive way. I mean, if Gumb hated himself and wanted to make a person suit to become a new person -- does it really matter if he was making a woman suit or a man suit? It seems like missing the forest for the trees to get hung up on the sex of the PERSON SUIT OF HUMAN SKIN the dude was trying to make. The show could *also* make Gumb trans* or do a gender-swap or something if they want, but gender identity seems to me to be a separate issue from Gumb feeling the need to make a literal person suit in the first place.
posted by rue72 at 8:06 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Thinking more about this...what would being "hyper masculine" mean on this show? (Well, and also in general, but also on this show in particular?)
I don't think Gumb's story is really all that much about gender, so I don't think it would be hard for them to tackle in a more progressive way. I mean, if Gumb hated himself and wanted to make a person suit to become a new person -- does it really matter if he was making a woman suit or a man suit? It seems like missing the forest for the trees to get hung up on the sex of the PERSON SUIT OF HUMAN SKIN the dude was trying to make. The show could *also* make Gumb trans* or do a gender-swap or something if they want, but gender identity seems to me to be a separate issue from Gumb feeling the need to make a literal person suit in the first place.
posted by rue72 at 8:06 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Fun fact: SotL opened on Valentine's Day, which was a Thursday in 1991. I was working my first job at a movie theater, and we got Silence. I had my first go at box office that week, up from concessions/usher. Every single show from Thursday through Monday sold out. Lots of couples on dates.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:06 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by lovecrafty at 8:06 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Okay, so. I'm not as smart or articulate as the rest of you, so I'm having trouble coming up with Why I Believe In Alana Bloom, but I do. I really do. Not only because the narrative needs somebody to be the holdout on Hannibal's innocence, but also because I really think she's only seeing what he's allowed her to see-- and the person suit coming together in front of her, I think she could possibly read as him kind of emerging from his shell for her.
And I do ship it, because of her eventual heartbreak, and probably the breaking of her sanity and faith in-- people in general, her career, her powers of observation.
Like. Okay. Correct me if I'm delusional, because I fully admit it's a possibility. But it seems to me he's a lot warmer around her than he is with almost anyone else. He jokes with her, there's banter ('do you have an appointment?' 'Do you have a beer?') he took two years to make people beer for her, he protected her by making sure she wasn't too close to the Ripper investigation. And I believe his warmth and capacity for gentleness are at least halfway genuine-- he did care about Abigail, even if that didn't stop him for an instant from killing her when she became a liability. I believe this because it makes his monstrosity SO MUCH WORSE because we know he can behave in the opposite manner.
And he brings out in her the brightest and most admirable traits, at least on paper. Her loyalty, her (self)righteousness, and I could see a case for her compassion. (Like I think she senses just how lonely he is, even if he doesn't, and even if it's because he's the fucking devil.) From her perspective, he's stability itself. Look how devoted he is to helping Will, even after the awful things Will has accused him of! Of course she'd respond to that. Of course she'd take up arms for someone like that. He's probably one of her best friends. Seeing him strung up like Jesus on the cross-- she's not in a position to appreciate the irony of that. I imagine it's gonna play pretty straight for her.
And of course, it's these very qualities that he's going to use to eat her fucking heart.
I dunno guys, I'm just super excited for this development.
posted by dogheart at 8:28 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
And I do ship it, because of her eventual heartbreak, and probably the breaking of her sanity and faith in-- people in general, her career, her powers of observation.
Like. Okay. Correct me if I'm delusional, because I fully admit it's a possibility. But it seems to me he's a lot warmer around her than he is with almost anyone else. He jokes with her, there's banter ('do you have an appointment?' 'Do you have a beer?') he took two years to make people beer for her, he protected her by making sure she wasn't too close to the Ripper investigation. And I believe his warmth and capacity for gentleness are at least halfway genuine-- he did care about Abigail, even if that didn't stop him for an instant from killing her when she became a liability. I believe this because it makes his monstrosity SO MUCH WORSE because we know he can behave in the opposite manner.
And he brings out in her the brightest and most admirable traits, at least on paper. Her loyalty, her (self)righteousness, and I could see a case for her compassion. (Like I think she senses just how lonely he is, even if he doesn't, and even if it's because he's the fucking devil.) From her perspective, he's stability itself. Look how devoted he is to helping Will, even after the awful things Will has accused him of! Of course she'd respond to that. Of course she'd take up arms for someone like that. He's probably one of her best friends. Seeing him strung up like Jesus on the cross-- she's not in a position to appreciate the irony of that. I imagine it's gonna play pretty straight for her.
And of course, it's these very qualities that he's going to use to eat her fucking heart.
I dunno guys, I'm just super excited for this development.
posted by dogheart at 8:28 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
But it seems to me he's a lot warmer around her than he is with almost anyone else.
Its not just you. He has an ease to his interactions with her. Ease sharing a laugh, smile and a drink. Ease when he suddenly and expertly puts her out by slamming the side of her head against a wall.
*sigh* you've sold me on HanniBloom dogheart, let's see where this goes.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 8:46 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Its not just you. He has an ease to his interactions with her. Ease sharing a laugh, smile and a drink. Ease when he suddenly and expertly puts her out by slamming the side of her head against a wall.
*sigh* you've sold me on HanniBloom dogheart, let's see where this goes.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 8:46 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
But it seems to me he's a lot warmer around her than he is with almost anyone else.
This is my feeling here as well. I mean, I will never ship it because my heart breaks too much at the thought of what will happen to her emotionally/psychologically when things go to hell and then some in a few more weeks... But you're not wrong.
I don't know that he made peoplebeer specifically for her, but that he has beer around for her because he knows she prefers it... That's a friendly gesture of a kind he doesn't show many people.
He has a certain kind of warmth with Bella and I think he likes her, but that's not quite the same. She's part of manipulating Jack. And while he cooks for Jack more than anyone else on the show... There's no way in hell that's friendly or altruistic for him. It's about keeping a careful eye on where Jack's head is at.
Alana studied under Hannibal when she was still in school, and I can't think he'd have done that with anyone he didn't think very highly of in his own way. I do think she's expendable as Gideon put it (basically everyone is), but I think he does his best to keep her out of harm's way. Sending Gideon to her place was a risk, but he could be reasonably certain Will'd get there in time. That was more about messing with Will's mental state some more.
Of course, now he's going to seduce her just to mess with Will even more still because he is the actual worst, but that again is more about his BFF in BSHCI. Using her that way is a god-fucking-awful thing to do to her too, but like I said: actual worst.
posted by sparkletone at 9:03 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is my feeling here as well. I mean, I will never ship it because my heart breaks too much at the thought of what will happen to her emotionally/psychologically when things go to hell and then some in a few more weeks... But you're not wrong.
I don't know that he made peoplebeer specifically for her, but that he has beer around for her because he knows she prefers it... That's a friendly gesture of a kind he doesn't show many people.
He has a certain kind of warmth with Bella and I think he likes her, but that's not quite the same. She's part of manipulating Jack. And while he cooks for Jack more than anyone else on the show... There's no way in hell that's friendly or altruistic for him. It's about keeping a careful eye on where Jack's head is at.
Alana studied under Hannibal when she was still in school, and I can't think he'd have done that with anyone he didn't think very highly of in his own way. I do think she's expendable as Gideon put it (basically everyone is), but I think he does his best to keep her out of harm's way. Sending Gideon to her place was a risk, but he could be reasonably certain Will'd get there in time. That was more about messing with Will's mental state some more.
Of course, now he's going to seduce her just to mess with Will even more still because he is the actual worst, but that again is more about his BFF in BSHCI. Using her that way is a god-fucking-awful thing to do to her too, but like I said: actual worst.
posted by sparkletone at 9:03 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Is she his first attempt at recreating Mischa? And it hasn't really worked perfectly, but enough for proof of concept, so he keeps her around and has some affection for her.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:07 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by lovecrafty at 9:07 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Of course, now he's going to seduce her just to mess with Will even more still because he is the actual worst, but that again is more about his BFF in BSHCI. Using her that way is a god-fucking-awful thing to do to her too, but like I said: actual worst.
But if Hannibal and Alana are genuinely as close as they seem, and dogheart is pretty convincing that they are, then aren't they closer than either Alana and Will or Hannibal and Will? So, would Hannibal and Alana getting together necessarily be about messing with Will?
posted by rue72 at 9:20 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
But if Hannibal and Alana are genuinely as close as they seem, and dogheart is pretty convincing that they are, then aren't they closer than either Alana and Will or Hannibal and Will? So, would Hannibal and Alana getting together necessarily be about messing with Will?
posted by rue72 at 9:20 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
> Thinking more about this...what would being "hyper masculine" mean on this show? (Well, and also in general, but also on this show in particular?)
Well, in the novel he is a bodybuilder. Not just he lifts weights and is in shape, he's built in a way where he could compete in bodybuilding competitions. He maintains this physique into his forties, when the novel starts. He's not pumped up with steroids, either--he is very strong.
Several times it's made clear to the reader (though not to Dolarhyde) that he is attractive to women and intimidating to other men. He's also an army vet, with a huge tattoo of a dragon. He's very concerned with his masculinity and power (and they're all tied up together in his mind due to lots of background stuff the novel explores).
Will Graham tries to draw him out by telling Freddie Lounds that the Tooth Fairy is probably impotent and/or homosexual. This does not end well for Freddie.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2014
Well, in the novel he is a bodybuilder. Not just he lifts weights and is in shape, he's built in a way where he could compete in bodybuilding competitions. He maintains this physique into his forties, when the novel starts. He's not pumped up with steroids, either--he is very strong.
Several times it's made clear to the reader (though not to Dolarhyde) that he is attractive to women and intimidating to other men. He's also an army vet, with a huge tattoo of a dragon. He's very concerned with his masculinity and power (and they're all tied up together in his mind due to lots of background stuff the novel explores).
Will Graham tries to draw him out by telling Freddie Lounds that the Tooth Fairy is probably impotent and/or homosexual. This does not end well for Freddie.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2014
Is she his first attempt at recreating Mischa? And it hasn't really worked perfectly, but enough for proof of concept, so he keeps her around and has some affection for her.
Alana? I don't see her that way at all. If only because he doesn't seem to have done any real brainwashing techniques with her at all.
I think in this timeline, Will would be his first attempt. Abigail was part of it too, of course, with the whole "building a murder family" thing. He "merely" manipulates her, abuses her trust in him as an adult. The only drug he gives her is the mushrooms that I can think of.
To Will and Will only so far, has he done all kinds of weird strobe light and drug shit to him to try to mold him into something he totally wouldn't be otherwise. That's the kind of thing he tries on Clarice in Hannibal (the book). No one else has gotten Special Ear Surprise.
I think at worst Alana is just someone he likes and she's good practice for his person suit since she's willing to call him on his bullshit like when she gets mad at him for the "sedative" he gave Abigail and a few other things.
I'm leaving out some related but VERY spoiler-y thoughts here that I'll be able to talk about after Friday (argh)!
[1] - Or her knock off... But, man, do I want them to ditch that part of things.
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Alana? I don't see her that way at all. If only because he doesn't seem to have done any real brainwashing techniques with her at all.
I think in this timeline, Will would be his first attempt. Abigail was part of it too, of course, with the whole "building a murder family" thing. He "merely" manipulates her, abuses her trust in him as an adult. The only drug he gives her is the mushrooms that I can think of.
To Will and Will only so far, has he done all kinds of weird strobe light and drug shit to him to try to mold him into something he totally wouldn't be otherwise. That's the kind of thing he tries on Clarice in Hannibal (the book). No one else has gotten Special Ear Surprise.
I think at worst Alana is just someone he likes and she's good practice for his person suit since she's willing to call him on his bullshit like when she gets mad at him for the "sedative" he gave Abigail and a few other things.
I'm leaving out some related but VERY spoiler-y thoughts here that I'll be able to talk about after Friday (argh)!
[1] - Or her knock off... But, man, do I want them to ditch that part of things.
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
But if Hannibal and Alana are genuinely as close as they seem, and dogheart is pretty convincing that they are, then aren't they closer than either Alana and Will or Hannibal and Will? So, would Hannibal and Alana getting together necessarily be about messing with Will?
I think Alana and Hannibal are very friendly but that it's strictly platonic. There's even a line early on in the series about how because of how close they were "everyone thought they were having an affair" meaning that they weren't and haven't.
Hannibal's gonna change that with the help of his seductive harpsichord. :(
I say it's about messing with Will right now, because of the bit in the preview for this week where Hannibal says, "You tried to kill me, Will," then it cuts to what is probably the end of the conversation because Hannibal then says, "I'll give Alan Bloom your best." Next thing is a brief glimpse of Hannibloom in bed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's just suggestive editing for promotional purposes, but come on.
posted by sparkletone at 9:31 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think Alana and Hannibal are very friendly but that it's strictly platonic. There's even a line early on in the series about how because of how close they were "everyone thought they were having an affair" meaning that they weren't and haven't.
Hannibal's gonna change that with the help of his seductive harpsichord. :(
I say it's about messing with Will right now, because of the bit in the preview for this week where Hannibal says, "You tried to kill me, Will," then it cuts to what is probably the end of the conversation because Hannibal then says, "I'll give Alan Bloom your best." Next thing is a brief glimpse of Hannibloom in bed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's just suggestive editing for promotional purposes, but come on.
posted by sparkletone at 9:31 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Sparkletone-- would you memail me your spoilery thoughts? I am always interested in spoilery thoughts.
And thank you all for confirming that I'm not totally off my rocker here. I heart all of you.
posted by dogheart at 9:34 PM on April 2, 2014
And thank you all for confirming that I'm not totally off my rocker here. I heart all of you.
posted by dogheart at 9:34 PM on April 2, 2014
Hannibal is gonna take your job, take your shirts, and TAKE YOUR GIRL.
Not that you had any chance with her but, inky dream wraith. It's gonna hurt. And she's gonna hurt SO MUCH.
That being said I want the Fuller-said number of sex scenes to be Will's dream fantasia, having visions of bedtime time with Will and Alana, then Hannibal and Will, then Him and Hannibal.
It's Have Your Ship And Eat It Too.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not that you had any chance with her but, inky dream wraith. It's gonna hurt. And she's gonna hurt SO MUCH.
That being said I want the Fuller-said number of sex scenes to be Will's dream fantasia, having visions of bedtime time with Will and Alana, then Hannibal and Will, then Him and Hannibal.
It's Have Your Ship And Eat It Too.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, I totally think a large part of it is about screwing with Will-- but I also think he genuinely likes her for her own sake. As much as he likes anyone, anyway. But as for initiating it now-- totally Mr. I'm Gonna Steal Yo Girl.
Or Friday could prove all of us wrong, who knows.
posted by dogheart at 9:37 PM on April 2, 2014
Or Friday could prove all of us wrong, who knows.
posted by dogheart at 9:37 PM on April 2, 2014
I wonder if we're going to do time jumps cause...Will is Married in Red Dragon right? Cause step-kid? Like it doesn't have to be huge but a little "and then four years" would fit.
posted by The Whelk at 9:40 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 9:40 PM on April 2, 2014
But Alana has *always* been more Hannibal's girl than Will's. So it just doesn't even seem that harsh?
posted by rue72 at 9:40 PM on April 2, 2014
posted by rue72 at 9:40 PM on April 2, 2014
It's more like Hannibal always had her in his back pocket and she's the last "No Will is not a murderous villain" people left.
Putting her into play on his side and in his bed puts away the last champion of Will Graham anyone will listen to. Even if she thought he was a killer but not aware of it.
Until Jack wants the food checked.
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Putting her into play on his side and in his bed puts away the last champion of Will Graham anyone will listen to. Even if she thought he was a killer but not aware of it.
Until Jack wants the food checked.
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
i wrote Will and Hannibal twice there above when I meant Hannibal and Alana
FREUD.
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on April 2, 2014
FREUD.
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on April 2, 2014
Will is Married in Red Dragon right? Cause step-kid? Like it doesn't have to be huge but a little "and then four years" would fit.
I think a time jump at the end of the presumed Cannibal On The Run season makes a good deal of sense to allow for Will to recover and all that stuff before it's Dolarhyde time.
But Alana has *always* been more Hannibal's girl than Will's.
Nah. Hannibloom until now has been platonic. But when it comes to Will there's a bunch of dialogue in the first season about how Alana like-likes him but stays away because he's unstable and she feels a relationship would be a bad idea even if she's tempted. And that's even if you ignore the smooch at Will's place and treat it as something that was entirely Will and not reciprocated at all (which obviously I don't think is how it should be thought of).
There's been some dialogue this season about it too in that episode with the trial.
posted by sparkletone at 9:46 PM on April 2, 2014
I think a time jump at the end of the presumed Cannibal On The Run season makes a good deal of sense to allow for Will to recover and all that stuff before it's Dolarhyde time.
But Alana has *always* been more Hannibal's girl than Will's.
Nah. Hannibloom until now has been platonic. But when it comes to Will there's a bunch of dialogue in the first season about how Alana like-likes him but stays away because he's unstable and she feels a relationship would be a bad idea even if she's tempted. And that's even if you ignore the smooch at Will's place and treat it as something that was entirely Will and not reciprocated at all (which obviously I don't think is how it should be thought of).
There's been some dialogue this season about it too in that episode with the trial.
posted by sparkletone at 9:46 PM on April 2, 2014
(from the end of last season to now I've gone from NO HANNIBAL HAS NO EARTHLY BODY HIS LIPS ARE ACID to wanting him get into just the right tender necking motion for Will (Or Alana, or Bedelia...) to punch in his adam's apple and choke him to death.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I want him to have kissy faces so someone can KILL HIM is what I'm saying.
and then they go play with dogs.
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
and then they go play with dogs.
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on April 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh, the other argument for a time jump after Hannibal is captured that I can't remember if I mentioned in past discussion: The trial episode of this season was weak sauce by this show's standards and I honestly think there's not much to dramatize in Hannibal's trial despite it being something that would clearly be a media circus "trial of the decade" sort of thing in-universe.
In addition to giving Will to have some time to recover, and possibly get married, it let's them elide the boring trial we already know the outcome of and get Hannibal "comfortably" into Chilton's "care."
You could straight up montage all that shit at the end of 3x13 to have a rare happy ending... And then Fannibals could recut it into the "what happened to them later" from Animal House lololol.
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 PM on April 2, 2014
In addition to giving Will to have some time to recover, and possibly get married, it let's them elide the boring trial we already know the outcome of and get Hannibal "comfortably" into Chilton's "care."
You could straight up montage all that shit at the end of 3x13 to have a rare happy ending... And then Fannibals could recut it into the "what happened to them later" from Animal House lololol.
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 PM on April 2, 2014
there's a bunch of dialogue in the first season about how Alana like-likes him but stays away because he's unstable and she feels a relationship would be a bad idea even if she's tempted.
Very early on, when she told Jack she wanted to stay out of Will's life, he hounded her about why for only about twenty seconds before she admitted it was because she had too much professional curiosity about how his head works and would probably cross a line by treating him like a specimen. I think that she's attracted to Will, but her reasons for that might not be so dissimilar from Hannibal's.
I want him to have kissy faces so someone can KILL HIM is what I'm saying.
Yeah, like that control freak would be at anyone's mercy even in bed? I think the only time you could attack him would be while he's completely immersed in something else. Meaning, while he's cooking or killing, basically.
posted by rue72 at 10:08 PM on April 2, 2014
Very early on, when she told Jack she wanted to stay out of Will's life, he hounded her about why for only about twenty seconds before she admitted it was because she had too much professional curiosity about how his head works and would probably cross a line by treating him like a specimen. I think that she's attracted to Will, but her reasons for that might not be so dissimilar from Hannibal's.
I want him to have kissy faces so someone can KILL HIM is what I'm saying.
Yeah, like that control freak would be at anyone's mercy even in bed? I think the only time you could attack him would be while he's completely immersed in something else. Meaning, while he's cooking or killing, basically.
posted by rue72 at 10:08 PM on April 2, 2014
I think the only time you could attack him would be while he's completely immersed in something else.
Like, say, a Swimming Pool?!
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:22 PM on April 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Like, say, a Swimming Pool?!
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:22 PM on April 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Very early on, when she told Jack she wanted to stay out of Will's life, he hounded her about why for only about twenty seconds before she admitted it was because she had too much professional curiosity about how his head works and would probably cross a line by treating him like a specimen.
How Will "I wanted to kiss her since I met her" Graham feels about Alana is much less complicated obviously. As for Alana... That's more complicated and I was being a little terse.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the subtext of that conversation in the pilot? The way I see it, Jack is the one prodding her about treating Will as a specimen, which she repeatedly says she doesn't want to do. She already said no when Jack asked her to do a study on him. She says she stays away from that because she's Will's friend (ie: I know he'd hate it and me if I did that), and she wants to remain his friend.
However, Jack had already brought up the "so you've never been alone in a room with him?" rather skeptically earlier and finally kind of calls her on the distance she keeps with an eye-roll-y, "So you avoid being alone with him in a room out of professional curiosity [with a riiiiiiigggghhhhhhtttttttt, you just keep telling yourself that tone of voice]." She then changes the subject to why what Jack wants Will for is a Bad Idea™.
My take away was that she definitely has romantic interest, but has chosen not to act on it. That all gets underlined/expanded on more strongly in the episode where they actually kiss. She thinks it wouldn't work because he hates being analyzed too much and that's just how her mind works given her training and field and everything... But it's plenty clear the attraction is there.
Of course by that point in the season, he's losing his grip, so staying away from him is good idea for more reasons than the one she states. But I do think the "I'd analyze/you'd hate it" is a bit of a cop out. To be fair: She could be entirely right that they wouldn't work out because of that, and I could be wrong.
I'm not sure and by that point in the season it kind of doesn't matter because Will is definitely losing his grip.
But I still think her feelings regarding Will are pretty clearly romantic-y... At least up until Will gets institutionalized for losing his mind and keeps saying Hannibal framed him for murders that it looks like he did. And then there's what's coming on Friday (noooo).
Totally unrelated side note: An indication of how high Hannibal's regard for Alana is... She's totally at the dinner party at the end of 1x07! I'd completely forgotten that.
posted by sparkletone at 11:16 PM on April 2, 2014
How Will "I wanted to kiss her since I met her" Graham feels about Alana is much less complicated obviously. As for Alana... That's more complicated and I was being a little terse.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the subtext of that conversation in the pilot? The way I see it, Jack is the one prodding her about treating Will as a specimen, which she repeatedly says she doesn't want to do. She already said no when Jack asked her to do a study on him. She says she stays away from that because she's Will's friend (ie: I know he'd hate it and me if I did that), and she wants to remain his friend.
However, Jack had already brought up the "so you've never been alone in a room with him?" rather skeptically earlier and finally kind of calls her on the distance she keeps with an eye-roll-y, "So you avoid being alone with him in a room out of professional curiosity [with a riiiiiiigggghhhhhhtttttttt, you just keep telling yourself that tone of voice]." She then changes the subject to why what Jack wants Will for is a Bad Idea™.
My take away was that she definitely has romantic interest, but has chosen not to act on it. That all gets underlined/expanded on more strongly in the episode where they actually kiss. She thinks it wouldn't work because he hates being analyzed too much and that's just how her mind works given her training and field and everything... But it's plenty clear the attraction is there.
Of course by that point in the season, he's losing his grip, so staying away from him is good idea for more reasons than the one she states. But I do think the "I'd analyze/you'd hate it" is a bit of a cop out. To be fair: She could be entirely right that they wouldn't work out because of that, and I could be wrong.
I'm not sure and by that point in the season it kind of doesn't matter because Will is definitely losing his grip.
But I still think her feelings regarding Will are pretty clearly romantic-y... At least up until Will gets institutionalized for losing his mind and keeps saying Hannibal framed him for murders that it looks like he did. And then there's what's coming on Friday (noooo).
Totally unrelated side note: An indication of how high Hannibal's regard for Alana is... She's totally at the dinner party at the end of 1x07! I'd completely forgotten that.
posted by sparkletone at 11:16 PM on April 2, 2014
Yep, and the way she stares at him is absolutely ADORING at that dinner table.
I just, like, I dunno, you guys. I had a friend who specialized in the psychology of very violent sex offenders, it didn't make her LESS wary or LESS insightful when it came to everyday interactions. She would sometimes point out dodgy behaviour from others where i hadn't really appreciated the significance. In the same vein, i wouldn't expect alana to be *less* suspicious than jane bloggs down the street, you know?
To me, her insisting "hannibal is not a serial killer!" Would be like someone in our world insisting "Hannibal is not a rapist!" Like i'm not suggesting you assume he is, but look at our reasons for ruling it out: they're old friends, he's nice to her, he doesn't look suspicious.
It's not just Alana, obviously, it's the whole system that's in thrall to him. I don' think the crucifixion imagery last week was accidental, I think Hannibal is being the antichrist and alana and jack represent his worshippers.
It's not like it's all their fault or anything, because the entire job of the Devil is to confuse us so that we can't see the truth. They ARE all only human. Psychopaths can be very well disguised and successfully fool experts for months at a time.
That said, the whole thing is completely professionally incestuous, with life-or-death legal decisions resting on the opinions of a person's friends and closest workmates. When you get an outside perspective from somebody who's not a friend or - in particular *doesn't have something to gain from hannibal (that they don't think they can get elsewhere),* things shake up. I'm talking leonard braver, bedelia, and indeed Beverly. And to some extent Gideon.
The overall pattern for a number of the characters is basically hannibal-worship based on personal admiration, regardless of how well you can explain any one incident. Chilton is the most overt, but he's not the only one.
posted by tel3path at 12:19 AM on April 3, 2014
I just, like, I dunno, you guys. I had a friend who specialized in the psychology of very violent sex offenders, it didn't make her LESS wary or LESS insightful when it came to everyday interactions. She would sometimes point out dodgy behaviour from others where i hadn't really appreciated the significance. In the same vein, i wouldn't expect alana to be *less* suspicious than jane bloggs down the street, you know?
To me, her insisting "hannibal is not a serial killer!" Would be like someone in our world insisting "Hannibal is not a rapist!" Like i'm not suggesting you assume he is, but look at our reasons for ruling it out: they're old friends, he's nice to her, he doesn't look suspicious.
It's not just Alana, obviously, it's the whole system that's in thrall to him. I don' think the crucifixion imagery last week was accidental, I think Hannibal is being the antichrist and alana and jack represent his worshippers.
It's not like it's all their fault or anything, because the entire job of the Devil is to confuse us so that we can't see the truth. They ARE all only human. Psychopaths can be very well disguised and successfully fool experts for months at a time.
That said, the whole thing is completely professionally incestuous, with life-or-death legal decisions resting on the opinions of a person's friends and closest workmates. When you get an outside perspective from somebody who's not a friend or - in particular *doesn't have something to gain from hannibal (that they don't think they can get elsewhere),* things shake up. I'm talking leonard braver, bedelia, and indeed Beverly. And to some extent Gideon.
The overall pattern for a number of the characters is basically hannibal-worship based on personal admiration, regardless of how well you can explain any one incident. Chilton is the most overt, but he's not the only one.
posted by tel3path at 12:19 AM on April 3, 2014
OH GOD OH GOD THEY WILL NOT FIND ANYTHING AND OH GOD SEVEN MORE EPISODES TO GO
HEADBANG HEADBANG
posted by tel3path at 1:31 AM on April 3, 2014
HEADBANG HEADBANG
posted by tel3path at 1:31 AM on April 3, 2014
WILL IS GOING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE HE IS A LUNATIC ALL OVER AGAIN I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT STAND IT
posted by tel3path at 1:43 AM on April 3, 2014
posted by tel3path at 1:43 AM on April 3, 2014
WILL IS GOING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE HE IS A LUNATIC ALL OVER AGAIN I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT STAND IT
Wait, why do you say that?
posted by rue72 at 6:29 AM on April 3, 2014
Wait, why do you say that?
posted by rue72 at 6:29 AM on April 3, 2014
OH GOD OH GOD THEY WILL NOT FIND ANYTHING
I think you might be right here, but also that some other stuff that will happen will make up for that. It would be just like Jack to pick the one fucking thing at the dinner party that isn't people.
posted by sparkletone at 8:45 AM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think you might be right here, but also that some other stuff that will happen will make up for that. It would be just like Jack to pick the one fucking thing at the dinner party that isn't people.
posted by sparkletone at 8:45 AM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, I think the moment Hannibal heard the words "stool sample" he decided to have a dinner party that wasn't people.
And once he gets his leg over Alana he can easily drug or hypnotise her into staying fooled. If he even needs to.
posted by tel3path at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2014
And once he gets his leg over Alana he can easily drug or hypnotise her into staying fooled. If he even needs to.
posted by tel3path at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2014
Heck, incestuous is the word. Hannibal helped train Alana, he's been involved in building her as a professional. He's been there from her beginnings as a mental health professional. It would be easy to build in (or subtly encourage her to build in) a giant blind spot where he's concerned. Clearly he wasn't interested in molding her psyche into something like he wants for Will, or how he manipulated book-Clarice, but that makes me wonder what he decided to mold her into? Or was she left mostly alone to serve as another one of his humanity touchstones? Was she always meant to be someone other people liked and trusted, thus transmitting that into Hannibal?
posted by PussKillian at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
For Red Dragon to work doesn't Will need to have a family? Maybe the dogs can act as a stand-in...
posted by codacorolla at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2014
posted by codacorolla at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2014
No, I think the moment Hannibal heard the words "stool sample" he decided to have a dinner party that wasn't people.
In the preview, when Jack asks for the food to go, Hannibal makes a Face™. It is not the face of someone who is merely upset that his friend won't be staying for the party. There is an element of, "Well this isn't good..." to it since, of course, he can't refuse.
NOBODY HURT THE DOGS!!!
We have promises from Fuller that that'll never ever ever ever happen on his watch and I believe him. I mean, he has so many other ways to completely destroy us emotionally it seems, so why resort to that kind of cheap crap.
The dogs don't work as a substitute anyway, since if I recall, it's Graham's wife who kills Dolarhyde in the book because Will's too hosed up from fighting him. I believe in the book he has kids, but I don't recall them figuring into the plot in any significant way. I think the show could get away with "wife and dogs" if they didn't want to have another character take out Dolarhyde.
posted by sparkletone at 12:05 PM on April 3, 2014
In the preview, when Jack asks for the food to go, Hannibal makes a Face™. It is not the face of someone who is merely upset that his friend won't be staying for the party. There is an element of, "Well this isn't good..." to it since, of course, he can't refuse.
NOBODY HURT THE DOGS!!!
We have promises from Fuller that that'll never ever ever ever happen on his watch and I believe him. I mean, he has so many other ways to completely destroy us emotionally it seems, so why resort to that kind of cheap crap.
The dogs don't work as a substitute anyway, since if I recall, it's Graham's wife who kills Dolarhyde in the book because Will's too hosed up from fighting him. I believe in the book he has kids, but I don't recall them figuring into the plot in any significant way. I think the show could get away with "wife and dogs" if they didn't want to have another character take out Dolarhyde.
posted by sparkletone at 12:05 PM on April 3, 2014
After this season concludes Hannibal (maybe) I wouldn't mind a time skip. In-show it's still 2012, or whatever, so getting it current with 2015 could include Will being married. I think that sort of thing usually works for Mad Men.
posted by codacorolla at 12:19 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by codacorolla at 12:19 PM on April 3, 2014
He has a stepson in the books.
Anyway, i think Hannibal needs alana for social proof, and as part of his person suit. He "learned as much from her" because she was a template for not just acceptable, but kind behaviour for him, much as Bedelia was a template for style and professionalism for him. I think he looked up to Bedelia but looks down on alana. He never intended to mould her into anything but a lapdog for his own ends - and of course into an excellent doctor. He takes his profession seriously, after all.
He may have encouraged her moral rectitude and insistence on upholding standards because if that was part of alana's training then everyone, including alana, would assume he held similar standards. But with doctors whose standards are lower, he also claims to have the same standards as them too.
I do think that to the extent he is capable, he is fond of alana, but it's in the same way a not particularly empathetic person would be fond of a pet. A beautiful creature to indulge feelings of sentiment and sometimes show off, but he'll put her to sleep the moment she interferes with his lifestyle.
posted by tel3path at 12:25 PM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Anyway, i think Hannibal needs alana for social proof, and as part of his person suit. He "learned as much from her" because she was a template for not just acceptable, but kind behaviour for him, much as Bedelia was a template for style and professionalism for him. I think he looked up to Bedelia but looks down on alana. He never intended to mould her into anything but a lapdog for his own ends - and of course into an excellent doctor. He takes his profession seriously, after all.
He may have encouraged her moral rectitude and insistence on upholding standards because if that was part of alana's training then everyone, including alana, would assume he held similar standards. But with doctors whose standards are lower, he also claims to have the same standards as them too.
I do think that to the extent he is capable, he is fond of alana, but it's in the same way a not particularly empathetic person would be fond of a pet. A beautiful creature to indulge feelings of sentiment and sometimes show off, but he'll put her to sleep the moment she interferes with his lifestyle.
posted by tel3path at 12:25 PM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
After this season concludes Hannibal (maybe) I wouldn't mind a time skip. In-show it's still 2012, or whatever, so getting it current with 2015 could include Will being married.
Given that this season is not likely to conclude with Hannibal caught, now is probably not the right time. Better to skip over his (likely to boring in dramatic terms) trial and give Will some time to recover and get married if they want and all that once Hannibal's been captured.
But maybe I'll feel differently about this after this season ends.
posted by sparkletone at 12:29 PM on April 3, 2014
Given that this season is not likely to conclude with Hannibal caught, now is probably not the right time. Better to skip over his (likely to boring in dramatic terms) trial and give Will some time to recover and get married if they want and all that once Hannibal's been captured.
But maybe I'll feel differently about this after this season ends.
posted by sparkletone at 12:29 PM on April 3, 2014
I do think that to the extent he is capable, he is fond of alana, but it's in the same way a not particularly empathetic person would be fond of a pet. A beautiful creature to indulge feelings of sentiment and sometimes show off, but he'll put her to sleep the moment she interferes with his lifestyle.
This is how he feels about everybody in his life, including Bedelia, who escaped him, and Abigail, who did not.
I don't see any particular indication in the show that made me think he does not respect Alana but condescends and keeps her around as a pet, while Bedelia was someone he respected - except perhaps in the matter of Bedelia's possible own dark mysterious background. He sees Alana as someone under his protection, but does not feel that he has to offer that to a woman who may has killed to protect herself before.
posted by PussKillian at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2014
This is how he feels about everybody in his life, including Bedelia, who escaped him, and Abigail, who did not.
I don't see any particular indication in the show that made me think he does not respect Alana but condescends and keeps her around as a pet, while Bedelia was someone he respected - except perhaps in the matter of Bedelia's possible own dark mysterious background. He sees Alana as someone under his protection, but does not feel that he has to offer that to a woman who may has killed to protect herself before.
posted by PussKillian at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2014
Yeah and then he will end up paying too much attention to his crazy abusive ex to sustain his relationship with his wife.
You know what will needs? Me, that's what.
posted by tel3path at 12:56 PM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
You know what will needs? Me, that's what.
posted by tel3path at 12:56 PM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I doubt he respects anyone in any way we usually understand respect. What I said was I think he looked up to Bedelia and looks down on alana.
I also think he sees himself as under alana's protection, rather than vice versa.
posted by tel3path at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2014
I also think he sees himself as under alana's protection, rather than vice versa.
posted by tel3path at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2014
You know what, i'm really pessimistic and i'm gonna assume the pout is just annoyance that jack would crash a dinner party and not even stay but just ask for food to go.
Rude, Jack, shockingly rude.
posted by tel3path at 1:10 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Rude, Jack, shockingly rude.
posted by tel3path at 1:10 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you'll pardon the aside: if one had, say been tricked by the Internets just now into reading critical spoilers, how might one, without access to ketamine or a large mallet, remove this information from their brain?
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 1:54 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 1:54 PM on April 3, 2014
If you'll pardon the aside: if one had, say been tricked by the Internets just now into reading critical spoilers, how might one, without access to ketamine or a large mallet, remove this information from their brain?
You could try a strobelight and whatever the fuck drugs Hannibal used to turn Will into an unreliable narrator.
Or maybe just drink and try not to think about it.
posted by sparkletone at 1:59 PM on April 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
You could try a strobelight and whatever the fuck drugs Hannibal used to turn Will into an unreliable narrator.
Or maybe just drink and try not to think about it.
posted by sparkletone at 1:59 PM on April 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on April 3, 2014
Draw clocks until faces rearrange.
posted by The Whelk at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Fuller just started live tweeting an airing in Europe somewhere or other. It threw me for a second on several levels. Not only is it "the wrong day" from my perspective, he's clearly tweeting about 2x01. Then I saw the @ name at the end of his tweets and realized what was going on.
posted by sparkletone at 2:27 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 2:27 PM on April 3, 2014
He's a tweet machine, holding up canary like he wants to put it on his fridge.
posted by The Whelk at 2:47 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 2:47 PM on April 3, 2014
If you'll pardon the aside: if one had, say been tricked by the Internets just now into reading critical spoilers, how might one, without access to ketamine or a large mallet, remove this information from their brain?
Getting advanced encephalitis might help.
posted by Pendragon at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2014
Getting advanced encephalitis might help.
posted by Pendragon at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2014
Why autocorrect turned fan art into canary i'll never know.
posted by The Whelk at 3:07 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 3:07 PM on April 3, 2014
Yup, that pretty much sums up the attitude covertly or overtly held by everyone Will ever meets ever.
I S2G Jack won't find any people in the food and will goes back to being no sorry will, you have 0 credibility ever.
posted by tel3path at 3:28 PM on April 3, 2014
I S2G Jack won't find any people in the food and will goes back to being no sorry will, you have 0 credibility ever.
posted by tel3path at 3:28 PM on April 3, 2014
Cool art that will impress the Fannibals in your life, and creep out everyone else!
posted by sparkletone at 3:29 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 3:29 PM on April 3, 2014
"whew, I can't believe I almost believed Will Graham! Doctor Lecter is a gentleman and friend, why just today he could me to drink a bottle of meat tenderizer every day for a week to improve my muscle quality! What a pal."
posted by The Whelk at 3:32 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 3:32 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I really wouldn't worry too much about spoilers. There's so much going on in this series that knowing a few things in advance doesn't really tell you much about how the whole puzzle is going to fit together.
posted by localroger at 3:42 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by localroger at 3:42 PM on April 3, 2014
No but srsly, you know who's will's only friend now? WINSTON.
Vote for winston to lead the pack to distract Hannibal by biting his bum, then steal the key from a sleeping chilton's pocket and bring it to daddy in his cell.
IF A DOG COULD FIGURE THAT OUT, WHY CAN'T YOU, BAU? IS THAT TOO LOGIC FOR YOU MISTER BAU?
posted by tel3path at 3:45 PM on April 3, 2014
Vote for winston to lead the pack to distract Hannibal by biting his bum, then steal the key from a sleeping chilton's pocket and bring it to daddy in his cell.
IF A DOG COULD FIGURE THAT OUT, WHY CAN'T YOU, BAU? IS THAT TOO LOGIC FOR YOU MISTER BAU?
posted by tel3path at 3:45 PM on April 3, 2014
They appear to be done shooting since this vine was just posted from the wrap party.
posted by sparkletone at 6:05 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 6:05 PM on April 3, 2014
The cake is people
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
AV Club/Hulu's Best In Show reaches the final showdown: Between Hannibal & Game of Thrones. Go Hannibal!
posted by crossoverman at 6:51 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by crossoverman at 6:51 PM on April 3, 2014
They left the foot on! Ewww.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:37 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by lovecrafty at 8:37 PM on April 3, 2014
I tried to think what a gender-swapped Bedelia outfit would look like until I realized it would just be Hannibal.
posted by The Whelk at 10:51 PM on April 3, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 10:51 PM on April 3, 2014
Yup, that pretty much sums up the attitude covertly or overtly held by everyone Will ever meets ever.
I S2G Jack won't find any people in the food and will goes back to being no sorry will, you have 0 credibility ever.
Like I said earlier, I find Hannibal so intimidating because he aligns himself with, basically, the patriarchy, and takes the position of heir to it -- he's physically imposing (especially with those suits), he surrounds himself only with the best, he sits in judgment/determines how people should behave (both as a psychiatrist and in terms of his "rude" hangup), he is in perfect control of himself and also has a literal medical license to control others' bodies, etc.
I've been thinking about it, and I think what's reading as uncanny and disturbing to me about how the other characters treat Will and the assumptions that they make about him is that, regardless that he's conventionally masculine (ex-cop, FBI agent, fishes and shoots and hangs with a pack of dogs, etc), everyone within the show treats him like he is naturally in opposition to the patriarchy. And it's apparently obvious to everyone within the show what (shitty) position Will occupies with the (patriarchal) power structure: the other characters, even the ones he's only just meeting, assume he's irrational, that he's weak, that he's not credible or maybe even worthy of respect, they pathologize his version of "normal" (the "empathy disorder" and all the talk about being "broken"), he's denied control over his body (both in terms of what it's doing and what people are doing to it), so many characters seem to sniff out that lack of control/power (Hannibal literally smells the encephalitis on him) and lick their chops at it (that includes Brown), they treat him as a vessel for the emotions of others (in his work for Jack), he's used as a tool and dehumanized (including when Hannibal decides to play with his encephalitis instead of treating him), he's isolated, his medical care is apparently no concern even to any of these "medical professionals" around him, he's the constant recipient of gaslighting (including the gaslighting that the neurologist helped Hannibal with in S1)...What's so uncanny to me is that even though Will is apparently marked *within* the show as someone at the bottom of a patriarchal power structure, to viewers, who of course are living/perceiving from outside of the Hannibal Universe, I don't think there's anything that would mark him in that way. Especially since the female characters don't seem to be similarly marked within the show.
Anyway, so that's why I think that any attempts that Will makes to seem reasonable/rational or strong or respectable or like a father or etc etc etc are doomed -- because he is *defined* (somehow!) within the show as *not* those things, because he's defined as not!Hannibal and *not* heir to patriarchal power.
(I think that there's also something related that the show is doing but that's going over my head about fathers, too (metaphorical as well as actual fathers) -- regarding GJH and Jack especially. I'll have to think on that more, though, I don't really get it yet).
posted by rue72 at 11:19 PM on April 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
I S2G Jack won't find any people in the food and will goes back to being no sorry will, you have 0 credibility ever.
Like I said earlier, I find Hannibal so intimidating because he aligns himself with, basically, the patriarchy, and takes the position of heir to it -- he's physically imposing (especially with those suits), he surrounds himself only with the best, he sits in judgment/determines how people should behave (both as a psychiatrist and in terms of his "rude" hangup), he is in perfect control of himself and also has a literal medical license to control others' bodies, etc.
I've been thinking about it, and I think what's reading as uncanny and disturbing to me about how the other characters treat Will and the assumptions that they make about him is that, regardless that he's conventionally masculine (ex-cop, FBI agent, fishes and shoots and hangs with a pack of dogs, etc), everyone within the show treats him like he is naturally in opposition to the patriarchy. And it's apparently obvious to everyone within the show what (shitty) position Will occupies with the (patriarchal) power structure: the other characters, even the ones he's only just meeting, assume he's irrational, that he's weak, that he's not credible or maybe even worthy of respect, they pathologize his version of "normal" (the "empathy disorder" and all the talk about being "broken"), he's denied control over his body (both in terms of what it's doing and what people are doing to it), so many characters seem to sniff out that lack of control/power (Hannibal literally smells the encephalitis on him) and lick their chops at it (that includes Brown), they treat him as a vessel for the emotions of others (in his work for Jack), he's used as a tool and dehumanized (including when Hannibal decides to play with his encephalitis instead of treating him), he's isolated, his medical care is apparently no concern even to any of these "medical professionals" around him, he's the constant recipient of gaslighting (including the gaslighting that the neurologist helped Hannibal with in S1)...What's so uncanny to me is that even though Will is apparently marked *within* the show as someone at the bottom of a patriarchal power structure, to viewers, who of course are living/perceiving from outside of the Hannibal Universe, I don't think there's anything that would mark him in that way. Especially since the female characters don't seem to be similarly marked within the show.
Anyway, so that's why I think that any attempts that Will makes to seem reasonable/rational or strong or respectable or like a father or etc etc etc are doomed -- because he is *defined* (somehow!) within the show as *not* those things, because he's defined as not!Hannibal and *not* heir to patriarchal power.
(I think that there's also something related that the show is doing but that's going over my head about fathers, too (metaphorical as well as actual fathers) -- regarding GJH and Jack especially. I'll have to think on that more, though, I don't really get it yet).
posted by rue72 at 11:19 PM on April 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
everyone within the show treats him like he is naturally in opposition to the patriarchy
And "patriarchy" isn't exactly the right term I think, but "power structure" is too vague. A lot of the assumptions that the other characters make about Will and the ways they treat him are gendered assumptions/behaviors in the actual world, but are apparently not gendered in the show's world (or are maybe gendered there in some different way I don't understand). I don't really know a term to convey that concisely, though?
posted by rue72 at 11:40 PM on April 3, 2014
And "patriarchy" isn't exactly the right term I think, but "power structure" is too vague. A lot of the assumptions that the other characters make about Will and the ways they treat him are gendered assumptions/behaviors in the actual world, but are apparently not gendered in the show's world (or are maybe gendered there in some different way I don't understand). I don't really know a term to convey that concisely, though?
posted by rue72 at 11:40 PM on April 3, 2014
They basically treat him like a low-status woman, yes.
Higher-status women may not have those experiences so overtly, at least not all the time. But so far Alana has totally been gaslit and consistently had her authority usurped by Hannibal. She might have high status in relation to many of the other characters, but not Hannibal. And she either doesn't perceive it or is grateful for it, because she is very much part of the system.
Hannibal takes total control of Bella's body on a whim, after she's tired of allowing Jack to control her body. He then delivers her back into the hands of her husband. She did expect better, enough to slap him for his trouble. And it is even possible that Jack might listen to whatever lowered opinion of hannibal she expresses.
You could see Bedelia as a high-status woman that Hannibal tried to bring down to his level, which also happens all the time. She also has to be indirect in reporting to Jack what he did to her - if she tells the truth she also loses status.
Will transmits lower status signals all the time, which usually becomes a feedback loop. But deciding to kill the King is a definite attempt to assert status, not to mention that his body language and spoken language are much less victim-like this season. The contrast, when he performs the victim for Alana because he senses that she wants this, is pretty stark.
Since Will was poor as a child, the other characters may have some classism in relation to him.
posted by tel3path at 12:00 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Higher-status women may not have those experiences so overtly, at least not all the time. But so far Alana has totally been gaslit and consistently had her authority usurped by Hannibal. She might have high status in relation to many of the other characters, but not Hannibal. And she either doesn't perceive it or is grateful for it, because she is very much part of the system.
Hannibal takes total control of Bella's body on a whim, after she's tired of allowing Jack to control her body. He then delivers her back into the hands of her husband. She did expect better, enough to slap him for his trouble. And it is even possible that Jack might listen to whatever lowered opinion of hannibal she expresses.
You could see Bedelia as a high-status woman that Hannibal tried to bring down to his level, which also happens all the time. She also has to be indirect in reporting to Jack what he did to her - if she tells the truth she also loses status.
Will transmits lower status signals all the time, which usually becomes a feedback loop. But deciding to kill the King is a definite attempt to assert status, not to mention that his body language and spoken language are much less victim-like this season. The contrast, when he performs the victim for Alana because he senses that she wants this, is pretty stark.
Since Will was poor as a child, the other characters may have some classism in relation to him.
posted by tel3path at 12:00 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Will is treated like someone with no privilege, like a child, the horror of incarceration and the horror of institutionalization all laid out. He's patronized and given no agency. No one will listen to him despite us, the viewer, knowing he's saying the truth. Will has been striped of whatever status he had and his ongoing horror is to scream into the wilderness the truth and have his most trusted ally say that's crazy and disregard it or pity him because of it. Nothing Will says will be treated as fact or worthy of consideration cause they all decided it was crazy and unstable and not worthy because of reasons.
Interesting that it's all women who believe him cause it's only really women who saw the seams and knots in Hannibal's person suit.
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Interesting that it's all women who believe him cause it's only really women who saw the seams and knots in Hannibal's person suit.
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
which goes into something Total Newb viewer said at the end of the first season, that it's a drama between polar opposites, someone who can't help but empathize vs. someone who puts a really good show at pretending to empathize and Hannibal is very dynamic and proactive and DOES things and is super-masculine coded despite all his fussy finery cause it's all very aggressive and Will is largely reactive and interior has things DONE TO HIM and is coded feminine despite his outdoorsy outfits and manly hobbies.
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 AM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 AM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, if you look at the reading list someone linked to above, Hannibal's paper that Jack cites in the first episode is based on "Evolutionary Origins of Stigmatization" which states among other things, that if a group particularly hates something and you keep behaving in ways reminiscent of the thing that group hates, you will get stigmatized. The group hates serial killers, Will acts like a serial killer (at a scene). Of course, they hired him to do so, and very much under protest, but they still despise him for it.
Will also is prepared to think in ways that make him and others uncomfortable. Most of the other characters resist doing that. Jack is plain unimaginative (he read the paper but still doesn't stop and ask, hey, am i asking will to do a job that stigmatizes him and maybe that's why i just assume he did it when, looked at objectively, there is one other possible suspect?) and Alana intentionally looks away from things she thinks it's improper for her to look at.
posted by tel3path at 12:30 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Will also is prepared to think in ways that make him and others uncomfortable. Most of the other characters resist doing that. Jack is plain unimaginative (he read the paper but still doesn't stop and ask, hey, am i asking will to do a job that stigmatizes him and maybe that's why i just assume he did it when, looked at objectively, there is one other possible suspect?) and Alana intentionally looks away from things she thinks it's improper for her to look at.
posted by tel3path at 12:30 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'd say Will taking Hannibal to the Hobbs house is pretty proactive. It's just that whenever Will does something, the system shoots him down.
Of course now Will's done another thing. Bad naughty Will! Doing things!
posted by tel3path at 12:37 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Of course now Will's done another thing. Bad naughty Will! Doing things!
posted by tel3path at 12:37 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
And I'd say it's beverly who is the first to give him credit for what he does rather than just pathologize him for it. He was bitterly disappointed when it turned out she was only asking him to consult, but maybe he shouldn't have been because in her case, it was a sign of thinking relatively highly of him.
And then afterwards, she says "I think he still wants to save lives," as if he were a real person with a mind and feelings, and as if his input were actually useful. Though she's ostensibly doing the same thing as everyone else, it has a different feel to it because it's coming from such a different place.
posted by tel3path at 12:44 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
And then afterwards, she says "I think he still wants to save lives," as if he were a real person with a mind and feelings, and as if his input were actually useful. Though she's ostensibly doing the same thing as everyone else, it has a different feel to it because it's coming from such a different place.
posted by tel3path at 12:44 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Interesting that it;s all women who believe him cause it's only really women who saw the seams and knots in Hannibal's person suit.
By and large, I don't think that the women in this show are treated in a gendered way, though. They aren't assumed to be irrational or weak, they aren't pathologized, etc. They're mistreated and they have low status compared to Hannibal, but so is everyone.
I think that the women are more likely to witness crazy shit that makes them end up being scared of Hannibal or finding Will's story credible, but I don't really think there's a structural reason for why the female characters in-the-know outnumber the male characters in-the-know (if they do? which I don't actually think they do?). I mean, characters like Gideon and Will, who actually know what's up, don't have female counterparts, either.
The show doesn't even do a lot with sexual desire -- *possibly* Alana and Will have both expressed *some* desire, but even then it has always been maybe a kiss and talking about cuddling at home and relationships, which I read more as a desire for connection than sexual desire. So on the one hand, I'd say that Bedelia and Alana show some pull toward Hannibal, and in that way the female characters might be different (they express desire, they're pulled toward Hannibal by some amount/version of desire), but on the other hand, I think that's a pretty big reach. To be honest, I think it's crazy to have Hannibal and Alana hook up because it's like introducing this whole new force to the show (ie, desire) that hasn't been in play much at all.
I think that gender works in a different way within this show than it does in the real world, and maybe the division isn't between men and women in the first place. I have no idea what groups it *would* be between because it seems to me right now that it's just everybody on one side and Will randomly on the other, and the only reason I can see for him being on the other is just that he and the King are nemeses, which isn't exactly a satisfying explanation since it has no connection to and produces no insight into the actual world at all.
which goes into something Total Newb viewer said at the end of the first season, that it's a drama between polar opposites, someone who can't help but empathize vs. someone who puts a really good show at pretending to empathize and Hannibal is very dynamic and proactive and DOES things and is super-masculine coded despite all his fussy finery cause it's all very aggressive and Will is largely reactive and interior has things DONE TO HIM and is coded feminine despite his outdoorsy outfits and manly hobbies.
I think that it works the other way around. I don't think it's that Hannibal is (necessarily) intrinsically dynamic, unempathetic, proactive, aggressive, controlling/fussy and so he occupies the place of a king/heir in the world, I think it could also be that Hannibal occupies the place of a king/heir in the world and so he has become/behaves as: dynamic, unempathetic, proactive, aggressive, controlling/fussy, etc. Same thing with Will -- the world makes the man, the man doesn't make the world -- except that Hannibal has also purposefully tried to make him "be" a certain way (a la Gideon?).
Also, I don't think that Will himself is coded as feminine, I think how people treat him is gendered -- something that I find disturbing/heartbreaking about his storyline right now is that he's not feminine *enough* and you can see him learning a sort of "femininity" (or rather stereotypically "feminine" behavior) that's defined by a lack of power and control, like how he's turning more toward manipulation, seductive nonchalance, champion-seeking and acting-by-proxy, etc.
Will transmits lower status signals all the time, which usually becomes a feedback loop.
Interesting thought about the re-enactments themselves stigmatizing Will. There's also a weird self-mortification involved, because he really could have and should have stopped working at a point last season, but he was feeling driven to keep going.
I don't think he's at all childlike, though, or that he's treated as a child? Losing ownership over his own body and the focus on others taking control of his body and manipulating it according to their whims/needs, and also his use/exploitation as a vessel (for emotions/work rather than childbearing/sex, though) are, if anything, part of a coming-of-age story -- but a very female coming-of-age story, about losing the relative freedom and innocence of childhood and becoming a woman (maybe against your will). Not to be all creepy and grim about it. But he's definitely the "Mad Woman in the Attic" right now, in terms of being locked away, and not so much the
"naughty child" or something, I think.
posted by rue72 at 12:55 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
By and large, I don't think that the women in this show are treated in a gendered way, though. They aren't assumed to be irrational or weak, they aren't pathologized, etc. They're mistreated and they have low status compared to Hannibal, but so is everyone.
I think that the women are more likely to witness crazy shit that makes them end up being scared of Hannibal or finding Will's story credible, but I don't really think there's a structural reason for why the female characters in-the-know outnumber the male characters in-the-know (if they do? which I don't actually think they do?). I mean, characters like Gideon and Will, who actually know what's up, don't have female counterparts, either.
The show doesn't even do a lot with sexual desire -- *possibly* Alana and Will have both expressed *some* desire, but even then it has always been maybe a kiss and talking about cuddling at home and relationships, which I read more as a desire for connection than sexual desire. So on the one hand, I'd say that Bedelia and Alana show some pull toward Hannibal, and in that way the female characters might be different (they express desire, they're pulled toward Hannibal by some amount/version of desire), but on the other hand, I think that's a pretty big reach. To be honest, I think it's crazy to have Hannibal and Alana hook up because it's like introducing this whole new force to the show (ie, desire) that hasn't been in play much at all.
I think that gender works in a different way within this show than it does in the real world, and maybe the division isn't between men and women in the first place. I have no idea what groups it *would* be between because it seems to me right now that it's just everybody on one side and Will randomly on the other, and the only reason I can see for him being on the other is just that he and the King are nemeses, which isn't exactly a satisfying explanation since it has no connection to and produces no insight into the actual world at all.
which goes into something Total Newb viewer said at the end of the first season, that it's a drama between polar opposites, someone who can't help but empathize vs. someone who puts a really good show at pretending to empathize and Hannibal is very dynamic and proactive and DOES things and is super-masculine coded despite all his fussy finery cause it's all very aggressive and Will is largely reactive and interior has things DONE TO HIM and is coded feminine despite his outdoorsy outfits and manly hobbies.
I think that it works the other way around. I don't think it's that Hannibal is (necessarily) intrinsically dynamic, unempathetic, proactive, aggressive, controlling/fussy and so he occupies the place of a king/heir in the world, I think it could also be that Hannibal occupies the place of a king/heir in the world and so he has become/behaves as: dynamic, unempathetic, proactive, aggressive, controlling/fussy, etc. Same thing with Will -- the world makes the man, the man doesn't make the world -- except that Hannibal has also purposefully tried to make him "be" a certain way (a la Gideon?).
Also, I don't think that Will himself is coded as feminine, I think how people treat him is gendered -- something that I find disturbing/heartbreaking about his storyline right now is that he's not feminine *enough* and you can see him learning a sort of "femininity" (or rather stereotypically "feminine" behavior) that's defined by a lack of power and control, like how he's turning more toward manipulation, seductive nonchalance, champion-seeking and acting-by-proxy, etc.
Will transmits lower status signals all the time, which usually becomes a feedback loop.
Interesting thought about the re-enactments themselves stigmatizing Will. There's also a weird self-mortification involved, because he really could have and should have stopped working at a point last season, but he was feeling driven to keep going.
I don't think he's at all childlike, though, or that he's treated as a child? Losing ownership over his own body and the focus on others taking control of his body and manipulating it according to their whims/needs, and also his use/exploitation as a vessel (for emotions/work rather than childbearing/sex, though) are, if anything, part of a coming-of-age story -- but a very female coming-of-age story, about losing the relative freedom and innocence of childhood and becoming a woman (maybe against your will). Not to be all creepy and grim about it. But he's definitely the "Mad Woman in the Attic" right now, in terms of being locked away, and not so much the
"naughty child" or something, I think.
posted by rue72 at 12:55 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you look upon it as the entire group projecting their own issues onto will, and making him into their problem child so they don't have to examine themselves more closely, it makes more sense why everyone seems to be against him.
posted by tel3path at 1:20 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 1:20 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Elucipher says Will transforms into the wendigo, but he doesn't, he transforms into the stag.
The stag is the figure that's sacrificed in Iphigenia's place, for one thing (Abigail plays iphigenia). For a while i think the stag symbolized hannibal as the one who really needed to be sacrificed but basically the stag is out there, at large, the sacrifice incomplete
So i think that partly the stag becoming will is will's increasing resolve to be willing to sacrifice himself
But primarily i think it shows him entering a state of nature, so far he's been all about trying to work the system and get it to listen to and accept him, but now it's a matter of - he had judicial power to kill gjh, he has no judicial power to stop the killer this time, but he can't just leave it alone - so he has to say fuck it, I'm in a state of nature because the laws of man have failed
It's profane in the sense that it's not overtly sacred, unless you want to count the stag as sacred because of the sacrifice? But it's not unholy in the sense that it's unhealthy. (if you accept the use of violence to quell violence, which for the purposes of this narrative you kinda have to.)
posted by tel3path at 1:36 AM on April 4, 2014
The stag is the figure that's sacrificed in Iphigenia's place, for one thing (Abigail plays iphigenia). For a while i think the stag symbolized hannibal as the one who really needed to be sacrificed but basically the stag is out there, at large, the sacrifice incomplete
So i think that partly the stag becoming will is will's increasing resolve to be willing to sacrifice himself
But primarily i think it shows him entering a state of nature, so far he's been all about trying to work the system and get it to listen to and accept him, but now it's a matter of - he had judicial power to kill gjh, he has no judicial power to stop the killer this time, but he can't just leave it alone - so he has to say fuck it, I'm in a state of nature because the laws of man have failed
It's profane in the sense that it's not overtly sacred, unless you want to count the stag as sacred because of the sacrifice? But it's not unholy in the sense that it's unhealthy. (if you accept the use of violence to quell violence, which for the purposes of this narrative you kinda have to.)
posted by tel3path at 1:36 AM on April 4, 2014
If you look upon it as the entire group projecting their own issues onto will, and making him into their problem child so they don't have to examine themselves more closely, it makes more sense why everyone seems to be against him.
It doesn't feel as personal to me as that, though? I think that all the other characters *like* Will. They just seem to consider him slightly subhuman.
At best, the reaction to him seems to be, "oooh what a fascinating creature!"
So i think that partly the stag becoming will is will's increasing resolve to be willing to sacrifice himself
I think Will's obsession with the stag comes from his obsession with GJH? GJH impaled his victims on stag antlers, so Will imagines himself as a stag? I think the stag represents the killers that Will goes after (or maybe the impulse to kill), and he's scared of becoming one of those killers himself.
posted by rue72 at 2:02 AM on April 4, 2014
It doesn't feel as personal to me as that, though? I think that all the other characters *like* Will. They just seem to consider him slightly subhuman.
At best, the reaction to him seems to be, "oooh what a fascinating creature!"
So i think that partly the stag becoming will is will's increasing resolve to be willing to sacrifice himself
I think Will's obsession with the stag comes from his obsession with GJH? GJH impaled his victims on stag antlers, so Will imagines himself as a stag? I think the stag represents the killers that Will goes after (or maybe the impulse to kill), and he's scared of becoming one of those killers himself.
posted by rue72 at 2:02 AM on April 4, 2014
Oh yeah, and when I was looking up stag hunting (because I was wondering whether people hunt them and use their heads or antlers as trophies, which they apparently do, but which is probably neither here nor there) and found this.
posted by rue72 at 2:05 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rue72 at 2:05 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ooo, stag hunt, a new thing to analyze!!!!
Anyway, yeah, i do think the other characters like will but consider him slightly subhuman. That doesn't change the fact that he's the repository for all their own personal issues, which is why some of them see him as a person needing to be helped and pitied but all of them keep him politely shovelled out of the way where decent people won't have to look at him.
It's also why they have to keep going back to him.
posted by tel3path at 2:18 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Anyway, yeah, i do think the other characters like will but consider him slightly subhuman. That doesn't change the fact that he's the repository for all their own personal issues, which is why some of them see him as a person needing to be helped and pitied but all of them keep him politely shovelled out of the way where decent people won't have to look at him.
It's also why they have to keep going back to him.
posted by tel3path at 2:18 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
At this point I believe there are 8 people who have figured out that Hannibal is a psychopath (of some sort), not counting people who may have figured it out while being killed by him. In approximate chronological order:
1. Miriam Lass basically stumbled onto evidence in her professional investigations.
2. Abigail Hobbs picked up that early on that Hannibal had a lot to hide ("and Hannibal you can be the man on the phone"), and over time saw how deep this went.
3. Tobias Budge recognized a fellow psychopath and followed him to observe him killing to make sure.
4. Abel Gideon is a fellow psychopath and was all but told straight out as he was allowed to see behind the curtain some.
5. Will Graham slowly pieced it together from his investigations and empathy.
6. Bedelia Du Maurier, recovering from being traumatized by an attack Hannibal orchestrated (and saved her from) recognizes that Hannibal is "dangerous".
7. Beverly Katz starts to listen to Hannibal and begins to question him and puts everything together, even gathering evidence.
8. Matthew Brown is sicced on Hannibal by Will and very quickly recognizes that Hannibal is a fellow psychopath. Brown asks if Hannibal is the Ripper almost playfully, on a free association whim directly after Brown realizes Hannibal killed the judge. Maybe he saw the Ripper in how the judge was killed, maybe he's heard enough chatter from Will to know that he suspects Hannibal.
Four women, most of whom figured it out via professional investigation. And four men, most of whom figured it out by recognizing a fellow psychopath.
One might argue that there are a few edge cases, such as maybe Dr. Chilton and Georgia Madchen. The former knows Hannibal is unorthodox but certainly does not realize he is the Ripper. The latter saw Hannibal presenting Dr. Sutcliffe but from a compromised state.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:19 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
1. Miriam Lass basically stumbled onto evidence in her professional investigations.
2. Abigail Hobbs picked up that early on that Hannibal had a lot to hide ("and Hannibal you can be the man on the phone"), and over time saw how deep this went.
3. Tobias Budge recognized a fellow psychopath and followed him to observe him killing to make sure.
4. Abel Gideon is a fellow psychopath and was all but told straight out as he was allowed to see behind the curtain some.
5. Will Graham slowly pieced it together from his investigations and empathy.
6. Bedelia Du Maurier, recovering from being traumatized by an attack Hannibal orchestrated (and saved her from) recognizes that Hannibal is "dangerous".
7. Beverly Katz starts to listen to Hannibal and begins to question him and puts everything together, even gathering evidence.
8. Matthew Brown is sicced on Hannibal by Will and very quickly recognizes that Hannibal is a fellow psychopath. Brown asks if Hannibal is the Ripper almost playfully, on a free association whim directly after Brown realizes Hannibal killed the judge. Maybe he saw the Ripper in how the judge was killed, maybe he's heard enough chatter from Will to know that he suspects Hannibal.
Four women, most of whom figured it out via professional investigation. And four men, most of whom figured it out by recognizing a fellow psychopath.
One might argue that there are a few edge cases, such as maybe Dr. Chilton and Georgia Madchen. The former knows Hannibal is unorthodox but certainly does not realize he is the Ripper. The latter saw Hannibal presenting Dr. Sutcliffe but from a compromised state.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:19 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
And, projecting, if we maintain that pattern the next most likely to figure it out would be Alana Bloom, though much of the discussion here has been about how she is not in a position to see. Another option would be Dr. Chilton since he has that combination of psychiatric insight and mild (?) psychopathy.
Though the Baltimore area seems to have plenty of psychopaths, so it could easy be someone new.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:56 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Though the Baltimore area seems to have plenty of psychopaths, so it could easy be someone new.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:56 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Chilton's a narcissist. He may not have recognised that Hannibal is a killer, but the "unorthodox" things they're talking about are very very unethical. Like "Soviet nightmare psychiatry", "torture", "really ought to get them both struck off" unethical. That might not be the same as recognising him as a psychopath, but it's a lot more than Bedelia knows (I think - she said herself she didn't know enough to accuse him of anything specific).
Will surely must have Chilton's number by now and understand that while he's temporarily aligned with Hannibal, he has no loyalty and will attach to whoever will get him the best deal.
posted by tel3path at 6:58 AM on April 4, 2014
Will surely must have Chilton's number by now and understand that while he's temporarily aligned with Hannibal, he has no loyalty and will attach to whoever will get him the best deal.
posted by tel3path at 6:58 AM on April 4, 2014
...um so I would add Chilton to that list but exclude Georgia Madchen as I doubt she had time to recognise much about Hannibal.
So that's four women who recognise Hannibal, versus five men.
Of the four women, two are not only innocent but are actually warriors for good. The other two are compromised, but victimised to the extent that we can't rightly call them evil.
Of the five men who have recognised him, three are fellow murderers, and one is a fellow nightmare psychiatrist. Will Graham is the one who is not like the others.
posted by tel3path at 7:03 AM on April 4, 2014
So that's four women who recognise Hannibal, versus five men.
Of the four women, two are not only innocent but are actually warriors for good. The other two are compromised, but victimised to the extent that we can't rightly call them evil.
Of the five men who have recognised him, three are fellow murderers, and one is a fellow nightmare psychiatrist. Will Graham is the one who is not like the others.
posted by tel3path at 7:03 AM on April 4, 2014
They appear to be done shooting since this vine was just posted from the wrap party.
Actually, Bryan just said on twitter this was the penultimate day of shooting. So... Happy Friday, y'all.
I'll post about it more later, but tonight's dinner will be going full Fancy Cannibal™ in a way I haven't in a while as I will be having dinner at a fairly nice restaurant with some friends. Getting home from that should be well-timed with flailing about the show as it airs tonight.
posted by sparkletone at 8:19 AM on April 4, 2014
Actually, Bryan just said on twitter this was the penultimate day of shooting. So... Happy Friday, y'all.
I'll post about it more later, but tonight's dinner will be going full Fancy Cannibal™ in a way I haven't in a while as I will be having dinner at a fairly nice restaurant with some friends. Getting home from that should be well-timed with flailing about the show as it airs tonight.
posted by sparkletone at 8:19 AM on April 4, 2014
Nothing Following a meal better than 45 minutes f screaming, flailing, and shout NOOOOOOO
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on April 4, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on April 4, 2014
Nothing Following a meal better than 45 minutes f screaming, flailing, and shout NOOOOOOO
A fancy cocktail or two helps the NOOOOOOOOOOOO go down easier.
posted by sparkletone at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2014
A fancy cocktail or two helps the NOOOOOOOOOOOO go down easier.
posted by sparkletone at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2014
There's no people in the cocktail right?
*looks down, notices a pickled eyeball in the martini glass*
Sigh.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 AM on April 4, 2014
*looks down, notices a pickled eyeball in the martini glass*
Sigh.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 AM on April 4, 2014
I can't, I cannot, I am beyond all articulation, and am merely a bucket of inchoate FEELS. Really, like I am at this Peak Fandom moment, and I say that as someone who's been a fangirl since the fourth goddamn grade.
(Also, are we flailing tonight in this thread, or the other one? Is there a consensus? I imagine most of my flailing is probably going to be more directed towards tumblr, because there will be a lot of capslock and even more incoherence than usual.)
posted by dogheart at 1:46 PM on April 4, 2014
(Also, are we flailing tonight in this thread, or the other one? Is there a consensus? I imagine most of my flailing is probably going to be more directed towards tumblr, because there will be a lot of capslock and even more incoherence than usual.)
posted by dogheart at 1:46 PM on April 4, 2014
I don't think there's a consensus, but I intended to do my personal flailing over in the newer one fwiw. I'll read this one too, but probably not respond much unless something really really interesting gets said. Caps lock in the other one though.
posted by sparkletone at 2:28 PM on April 4, 2014
posted by sparkletone at 2:28 PM on April 4, 2014
I'll decamp to the other one too.
( I'm basting my duck now! I enjoyed breaking the backbone a little too much.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:36 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
( I'm basting my duck now! I enjoyed breaking the backbone a little too much.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:36 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
2. Abigail Hobbs picked up that early on that Hannibal had a lot to hide ("and Hannibal you can be the man on the phone"), and over time saw how deep this went.
I *think* that Abigail recognized his voice and then recognized the taste of human "meat" at his table early on, so she had a lot of knowledge the others didn't. What's strange is that she didn't say anything. Even when she and Hannibal were in Minnesota at the very end and she asked if he was going to kill her, she told him that she'd gotten away from Will because she didn't feel safe with him but she seemed to feel oddly safe with Hannibal. I guess he reminded her of her father? She's also an odd duck in that she wasn't a psychopath but she was a killer. (Will's the only other person in that category, I think?).
For a while i think the stag symbolized hannibal as the one who really needed to be sacrificed but basically the stag is out there, at large, the sacrifice incomplete
I just watched the last season finale while eating a not-at-all worthy lunch and when Will is trying to work up the nerve to kill Hannibal (once he'd turned the gun on him in Minnesota), he says the scales have fallen from his eyes, and then after Jack's shot him and he's on the ground, he looks at Hannibal again and Hannibal is the stag-man that's turning up a lot in his hallucinations now. The same stag-man that showed up lurking behind the slides of Beverly. So maybe that guy is just straight up supposed to represent Hannibal?
Anyway, yeah, i do think the other characters like will but consider him slightly subhuman. That doesn't change the fact that he's the repository for all their own personal issues, which is why some of them see him as a person needing to be helped and pitied but all of them keep him politely shovelled out of the way where decent people won't have to look at him.
I agree that he's their scapegoat (for some reason!). Or, not that every character scapegoats or scapegoated Will -- I don't think that Beverly or Abigail or Bedelia did, but they're all dead or gone now. But I think that all the characters that work at killing or catching killers do.
I was looking up scapegoating because I couldn't find the right way to describe why I don't think that any of the others are going to be able to even *want* to help Will (except to the point of saving him so that he's not literally dead/gone and can't function as a scapegoat or negative identity (for Hannibal and maybe for Alana) anymore), and found this stuff (based on Rene Gerard's social theory) on mimetic contagion that explains what I think is happening better than I can:
Mimesis is like an endless dance of unconscious imitation in which people find themselves desiring things because they are desired by someone else. “Keeping up with the Joneses”: mimetic desire aroused not by the object itself but by the desire of others for the object. Competition becomes its own end, and the object of desire becomes irrelevant as previously civil neighbors become consumed by rivalry. They are now locked into a “negative identity” in which each needs the other in order to feel real. [...]
[W]ithout the release provided by sacrificial violence, mimetic desire leads inevitably to mimetic rivalry and will finally culminate in mimetic violence. Humans are so highly imitative that, without the scapegoat mechanism, violent outbreaks within any social group will spread like wildfire and decimate the whole group. If two people desire the same thing, their desire will soon spread to a third, a fourth, and so on. Once the object is forgotten, mimetic rivalry snowballs into widespread antagonism. The final stage of the crisis is when the antagonists no longer imitate each other’s desires for an object, but each other’s antagonism.
Since Will was poor as a child, the other characters may have some classism in relation to him.
Oddly enough for a show so focused on consumption (and outrageously conspicuous consumption), I don't get a feeling that class is a "thing" within its world at all? Everyone seems to be dipping from the same pool of cultural knowledge, and nobody seems to care at all about money. Hannibal is "exotic" (as per Mariam Lass, anyway), but that apparently just means he's a psycho with an accent. It seems like everyone is always able to thoughtlessly consume as *much* as they want, so all the attention is on how they're defined by how/what they choose to consume (I think that they have pretty much infinite choice is assumed within the show, because otherwise how/why would discernment be given so much weight?) I could be missing something, though -- because meanwhile apparently people are thinking that Mr. LL Bean, aka Will, looks "impoverished" and "unkempt" so I don't even know.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the in-show/meta-commentary about class or wealth was totally going over my head. The only time I saw something and thought OMG I WANT THAT PLEASE PLEASE was when Hannibal pulled up to Will's house with that Bentley at the end of last season. When Will said he wanted to go to Minnesota I cracked up laughing because damn I'd want to go too, if we were going to drive there in *that.* Oh, Minnesota? I mean the desert outside Vegas. Oh oops, I mean the Salt Flats. Soooo many feelings to work through (about killing, I swear!), especially if it's stick.
posted by rue72 at 2:37 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I *think* that Abigail recognized his voice and then recognized the taste of human "meat" at his table early on, so she had a lot of knowledge the others didn't. What's strange is that she didn't say anything. Even when she and Hannibal were in Minnesota at the very end and she asked if he was going to kill her, she told him that she'd gotten away from Will because she didn't feel safe with him but she seemed to feel oddly safe with Hannibal. I guess he reminded her of her father? She's also an odd duck in that she wasn't a psychopath but she was a killer. (Will's the only other person in that category, I think?).
For a while i think the stag symbolized hannibal as the one who really needed to be sacrificed but basically the stag is out there, at large, the sacrifice incomplete
I just watched the last season finale while eating a not-at-all worthy lunch and when Will is trying to work up the nerve to kill Hannibal (once he'd turned the gun on him in Minnesota), he says the scales have fallen from his eyes, and then after Jack's shot him and he's on the ground, he looks at Hannibal again and Hannibal is the stag-man that's turning up a lot in his hallucinations now. The same stag-man that showed up lurking behind the slides of Beverly. So maybe that guy is just straight up supposed to represent Hannibal?
Anyway, yeah, i do think the other characters like will but consider him slightly subhuman. That doesn't change the fact that he's the repository for all their own personal issues, which is why some of them see him as a person needing to be helped and pitied but all of them keep him politely shovelled out of the way where decent people won't have to look at him.
I agree that he's their scapegoat (for some reason!). Or, not that every character scapegoats or scapegoated Will -- I don't think that Beverly or Abigail or Bedelia did, but they're all dead or gone now. But I think that all the characters that work at killing or catching killers do.
I was looking up scapegoating because I couldn't find the right way to describe why I don't think that any of the others are going to be able to even *want* to help Will (except to the point of saving him so that he's not literally dead/gone and can't function as a scapegoat or negative identity (for Hannibal and maybe for Alana) anymore), and found this stuff (based on Rene Gerard's social theory) on mimetic contagion that explains what I think is happening better than I can:
Mimesis is like an endless dance of unconscious imitation in which people find themselves desiring things because they are desired by someone else. “Keeping up with the Joneses”: mimetic desire aroused not by the object itself but by the desire of others for the object. Competition becomes its own end, and the object of desire becomes irrelevant as previously civil neighbors become consumed by rivalry. They are now locked into a “negative identity” in which each needs the other in order to feel real. [...]
[W]ithout the release provided by sacrificial violence, mimetic desire leads inevitably to mimetic rivalry and will finally culminate in mimetic violence. Humans are so highly imitative that, without the scapegoat mechanism, violent outbreaks within any social group will spread like wildfire and decimate the whole group. If two people desire the same thing, their desire will soon spread to a third, a fourth, and so on. Once the object is forgotten, mimetic rivalry snowballs into widespread antagonism. The final stage of the crisis is when the antagonists no longer imitate each other’s desires for an object, but each other’s antagonism.
Since Will was poor as a child, the other characters may have some classism in relation to him.
Oddly enough for a show so focused on consumption (and outrageously conspicuous consumption), I don't get a feeling that class is a "thing" within its world at all? Everyone seems to be dipping from the same pool of cultural knowledge, and nobody seems to care at all about money. Hannibal is "exotic" (as per Mariam Lass, anyway), but that apparently just means he's a psycho with an accent. It seems like everyone is always able to thoughtlessly consume as *much* as they want, so all the attention is on how they're defined by how/what they choose to consume (I think that they have pretty much infinite choice is assumed within the show, because otherwise how/why would discernment be given so much weight?) I could be missing something, though -- because meanwhile apparently people are thinking that Mr. LL Bean, aka Will, looks "impoverished" and "unkempt" so I don't even know.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the in-show/meta-commentary about class or wealth was totally going over my head. The only time I saw something and thought OMG I WANT THAT PLEASE PLEASE was when Hannibal pulled up to Will's house with that Bentley at the end of last season. When Will said he wanted to go to Minnesota I cracked up laughing because damn I'd want to go too, if we were going to drive there in *that.* Oh, Minnesota? I mean the desert outside Vegas. Oh oops, I mean the Salt Flats. Soooo many feelings to work through (about killing, I swear!), especially if it's stick.
posted by rue72 at 2:37 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I *think* that Abigail recognized his voice and then recognized the taste of human "meat" at his table early on, so she had a lot of knowledge the others didn't. What's strange is that she didn't say anything.
I don't think it was conscious knowledge until much later when she saw how he was acting post-Nick Boyles and finally says to him that he was the man on the phone. Till then it was just this thing in the back of her mind that wasn't a conscious thought yet, much like how Will had it rattling around in his head for a long time before finally putting it together consciously.
posted by sparkletone at 2:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think it was conscious knowledge until much later when she saw how he was acting post-Nick Boyles and finally says to him that he was the man on the phone. Till then it was just this thing in the back of her mind that wasn't a conscious thought yet, much like how Will had it rattling around in his head for a long time before finally putting it together consciously.
posted by sparkletone at 2:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
My Hannibal menu tonight:
Sloppy JOES
Tater TOTS
MEXICAN corn
posted by maggieb at 3:38 PM on April 4, 2014
Sloppy JOES
Tater TOTS
MEXICAN corn
posted by maggieb at 3:38 PM on April 4, 2014
Tater tots are one of the few foods that cannot be improved. Nothing you do them will make them better. they are the platonic ideal of potato.
Tots.
posted by The Whelk at 3:40 PM on April 4, 2014
Tots.
posted by The Whelk at 3:40 PM on April 4, 2014
Tater tots are one of the few foods that cannot be improved.
"Cajun" Tots.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 3:47 PM on April 4, 2014
"Cajun" Tots.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 3:47 PM on April 4, 2014
Sheesh Legit Republic, you don't need scare quotes around Cajun. Here in Louisiana we call Cajun cooking "knowing how to cook." It mainly consists of knowing that there are seasonings available other than salt.
posted by localroger at 4:49 PM on April 4, 2014
posted by localroger at 4:49 PM on April 4, 2014
It mainly consists of knowing that there are seasonings available other than salt.
And here I was concerned my concept of Cajun Seasoning wasnt even remotely authentic and I was about to accidentally step on some kind of cultural misappropriation landmine.
Also I now know the term "scare quotes", so thanks for that. Metafilter is ever educating me :-)
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 5:11 PM on April 4, 2014
And here I was concerned my concept of Cajun Seasoning wasnt even remotely authentic and I was about to accidentally step on some kind of cultural misappropriation landmine.
Also I now know the term "scare quotes", so thanks for that. Metafilter is ever educating me :-)
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 5:11 PM on April 4, 2014
Today's Hannidinner is an asparagus and pancetta frittata. Just came out of the oven and looks fantastic.
Also tomorrow is jambalaya and cornbread, but it is more Creole-style than Cajun.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:31 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also tomorrow is jambalaya and cornbread, but it is more Creole-style than Cajun.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:31 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
more Creole-style than Cajun
Creole is just what Cajun would be with more money and time. Hannibal would definitely cook in the Creole tradition though.
posted by localroger at 6:27 PM on April 4, 2014
Creole is just what Cajun would be with more money and time. Hannibal would definitely cook in the Creole tradition though.
posted by localroger at 6:27 PM on April 4, 2014
Abigail didn't say anything because she has been conditioned all her life not to bring these things up directly.(and yes also because it took her a while to consciously put it together)
She was in the same position Will was at the beginning of s2. Whatever experience she'd had with trying to state her case directly, I guarantee you they won't have been good experiences.
posted by tel3path at 1:23 PM on April 5, 2014
She was in the same position Will was at the beginning of s2. Whatever experience she'd had with trying to state her case directly, I guarantee you they won't have been good experiences.
posted by tel3path at 1:23 PM on April 5, 2014
« Older The rate the doors of our universe open. | Same Face Syndrome Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I just watched this last night, and I didn't find it particularly 'women in refrigerators'. Plenty of "ARE YOU A FUCKING IDIOT??" (did you leave A NOTE somewhere before you went there?), but that's normal for a show where the characters don't seem to realize they're operating in the horror genre. And I'll miss the character - she was interesting and with Bella dying and Gillian Anderson having a lead role in "Crisis", we're a little short on female characters at the moment. But I think Beverly is a solid honest death that's better-earned than, say, Wash in Firefly.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:24 PM on March 25, 2014