Consuming Hannibal
March 31, 2014 5:24 PM Subscribe

"Hannibal exists in a world where all metaphors move from abstract to concrete and literal—they become embodied. Metaphorical vision and 'seeing' become a giant eye stitched from human flesh." The mind and the body in Hannibal. Spoiler heavy up to the most recent episode.

Hannibal, recently. From the same tumblr, a Hannibal reading list.

posted by codacorolla (1812 comments total) 33 users marked this as a favorite

I was really pleased by how absolutely disgusted I was by the food porn this episode; knowing that Hannibal was eating Beverly just made me want to punch him in his smug face. (More than usual, I mean.)

And elucipher is one of my favorite people writing meta for Hannibal right now, so thanks for the post!
posted by dogheart at 7:09 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't like the show--it seems just flat-out lurid to me. Maybe I'd see something more here if I did. But I'm tempted to say that this doesn't seem to rise much above the level of free association.

Also: demerits for misuse of 'deconstructed.'
posted by Fists O'Fury at 7:20 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am constantly delighted by how critical and erudite this fandom is. This is the rare show that's put together with such care and detail and nearly all of our usual fanish overthinking and connection building and undergrad media analysis are totally rewarded and thought out.

Like I still think this the only TV show where I had some passing "might be something but probobly just a coincidence " thoughts that where completely proven to be true in the commentary. It is above all a labor of love to the characters and source material.

It's the most beautifully shot show on TV and the most amazing fanwork ever.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on March 31, 2014 [5 favorites]

The first episode I saw of this show was a late-first-season one (Roti), and I was kind of unimpressed. "Wait, the guy's hallucinating, and what? Why is he believing this?"... At the recommendation of a friend, I started from the first episode, and with that kind of ramp-up, it was positively delightful - the grand guignol luridness is positively operative in melodrama. The color palette is practically a character in its own right.

I can understand why someone wouldn't like the show, but I'm really adoring it.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:51 PM on March 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

Black stag-antlers pierce his flesh and erupt from his back; the Ravenstag, emblem of the violent desires shared by Will & Hannibal. Will’s transformation is inspired by a short film retelling Titian’s Metamorphosis, made for The National Gallery in London [x].

Previously.
posted by homunculus at 8:27 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

I usually only watch small random snippets of television for purposes of divining cosmic mood. But I caught the first episode, until I turned it off due to revulsion. I read what was it Red Dragon? Some insight in that one.

But this show just seems like training material for a nation of devils.
posted by sieve a bull at 10:47 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

This essay is fascinating, especially the body/soul dichotomy the writer's talking about, which I hadn't thought of in relation to this show. I'm not sure about what she was saying about corruption or corruption-as-anger, though.

That decision, to kill in order to sate a selfish impulse, to kill for wrath and not for reason, is irrevocable. It reveals how much Will has changed; and it, in turn, changes him.

And the very fact that Hannibal’s torture feels justified shows that we too have been infected with Will’s corruption. We don’t simply want to see Hannibal dead. We want to see him suffer.

Not that Will isn't also angry, but I thought that he was mostly so desperate to stop Hannibal because he was afraid? And not even for himself necessarily, since Hannibal doesn't seem as though he's looking to kill him, but for other people?

Also, why would anger be a sign of corruption in the first place? What's corrupt about feeling angry at an injustice or cruelty? Why wouldn't anyone be furious seeing Beverly turned from a person into mocking pieces of evidence? Wouldn't it be a sign of corruption (and callousness and lack of compassion) to not be angry (among other emotions) at that? The monsters in this show aren't particularly wrathful, either. If anything I think they're strangely forgiving -- they just really like killing, and are exceptionally callous, so they murder people to stroke their egos and they call it art.

I think it's *prideful* to decide that you get to mete out punishments and sentence people to live or die. But since Hannibal poses an on-going threat, I wouldn't even classify Will sending Brown to kill him as "meting out punishment." Doesn't punishment have to come after the transgression? But Hannibal just goes on transgressing, that's the problem.

Also, Will just said he wanted Hannibal to die, the torture and soliloquies were Brown's idea. That's what happens when you send a thief to catch a thief, I guess -- shit gets stolen.

He exerts his will over Matthew Brown, just as Hannibal will manipulate Dolarhyde toward killing Will and his family in Red Dragon. This plot pre-emptively transforms that future act of wanton brutality into a calculated, mimicked revenge for this offence. Like the incarcerated Hannibal, Will overcomes his lack of bodily autonomy and freedom by making puppets of others. It’s parasitic: they become his body.

The parasitic idea is pretty amazing. I'll have to think on that more. But I don't agree with her take on the power imbalance between Brown and Will.

Brown is a predator, though, just like everyone else at BSHCI (and everyone in the whole world of Hannibal, it gets to feeling like). Will had to look like a predator, and move like a predator, and talk like a predator when he was around him, or he risked becoming prey. Showing no fear while trying to win someone over isn't a show of anger, that's weariness and fear, too.

There's the *risk* that he will become a predator, he's *capable* of being a predator (that's how he even has a job) -- but next to Brown, he didn't seem powerful or predatory to me, he seemed like he was trying to play it cool. Then he got to his cell and had a semi-breakdown from the stress/hope/fear/I-dunno.

I can believe that something changed, and I can believe that what changed is that Will was broken/warped somehow, but I don't see it where she's seeing it, I guess?
posted by rue72 at 11:19 PM on March 31, 2014 [1 favorite]

But this show just seems like training material for a nation of devils.

But it is such a well dressed nation, with such splendid manners and taste in food.

I HAVE started taking more care in how I plate my meals because of this show. But one thing I have not done is started artfully murdering people.
The show's creators have stated plainly their intent to not glorify violence. Not to desensitize. So the violence often takes on a dream like quality. It is beautiful , it is horrid. It is supposed to be. The title character is a monster. And like the scariest of monsters, he hides in plain sight.
Its an exploration of themes, and an exercise in something very human. The show seduced us with beautiful dream visuals and a Fancy Canibal who eats the rude. Then he started doing bad things to characters we'd come to care about and we're reminded that the devil is never really kind, and never really human.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 11:28 PM on March 31, 2014 [8 favorites]

Strongly agree, rue72, this commentary is one of the few occasions I don't agree with everything elucipher says.

I disagree most fundamentally with her saying that will's killing Hannibal is not like his killing GJH. Yes it is. That's exactly what it's like. And he's doing it to protect the bunch of ungrateful ingrates who have him imprisoned and labelled crazy for all his efforts on their behalf. The killing part of it isn't Christlike but the sacrifice to save a shower of ingrates who don't care about him? Definitely Christlike.

I think calling Will's motives sinful or self-indulgent is totally projecting and going too far here. There is a killer and he FUCKING DISSECTED BEVERLY. If Will is going to do whatever it takes to stop him, when all legal means have been taken away from him by the very people he seeks to protect, then so be it.

Also I'm pretty sure pride is the original sin of humanity, not selfishness. I don't know why chilton said that, exçept that he is çlearly a narcissist and narcissism is pathologiçal pride and by definition, he can't confess his own sins.
posted by tel3path at 1:24 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hear hear, Legit Republic. Increasingly I'm convinced that part of the fandom backlash at bev's killing (aside from the objection at another instance of the ill tradition of artfully displaying the bodies of women in death) was that it put right in our faces the meaning of all the food porn we've been consuming with such glee. I mean i think everyone always knew that, but often, in the fandom, Hannibal has been portrayed as a bringer of pleasure and a bringer of comfort and if you get too attached to seeing him that way, having the camera track the portrayal all the way through to the end has got to be uncomfortable viewing.

Fortunately it's just a TV show, it's not real. Kinda makes you think, though.

If people can get this upset at a work of fiction, imagine how the characters are gonna feel when they have to face up to it in their "real life".
posted by tel3path at 1:31 AM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

Elucipher is new to me, so clearly I have reading to catch up on. Because I don't spend enough of my day obsessing about this show yet. Thanks for the link!
posted by Stacey at 3:10 AM on April 1, 2014

I have a creeping fear that the end of the show will not end with Hannibal's capture, and that the fight scene is not real.

And now Mads Mikkelsen has hinted as much. Of course, he may just be jerking us around.

What, I wonder? Hannigram escaping to Buenos Aires? Hannibal wins the fight and kills Jack and Alana and Will is psychically viewing it remotely from his cell and he's helpless to do anything about it?
posted by tel3path at 3:47 AM on April 1, 2014

Great post, thanks for the link!
posted by crossoverman at 3:56 AM on April 1, 2014

I have a creeping fear that the end of the show will not end with Hannibal's capture, and that the fight scene is not real.

Fuller has been quite explicit: he hopes to take Hannibal for many seasons, through Red Dragon (where Hannibal spends the entire novel in prison) and he hopes to eventually acquire rights to Silence of the Lambs (Lector spends most of the novel in prison).

Given the specific season in which Fuller intends to visit the Red Dragon storyline, I would consider it very unlikely if this season ends with Hannibal as anything other than a prisoner or fugitive.

Another Fuller interview has this saying this about that fight scene:

I knew that’s how we should open the second season. Because there was a talky scene and a talky scene and then there was another talky scene and I was like, oh my God, we need energy. So I thought, let’s just start with the end. [...] A) I think the audience knows that Hannibal Lecter’s going to be captured eventually, and B) we have so many other cards to play in the season that I wasn’t nervous about giving that one up. It felt like, well, we tell the audience this is where we’re going. This is what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a huge clash between these two guys, and how we get there is going to be part of the fun. We’re breaking the finale right now, and it’s interesting to look back and say, “Okay, this is where we started and where in the arc of this story does that fight happen? [Laughs.] How much do we have to play beforehand? How much do we have to play afterwards?” And we have such big moves in the finale that the fight is actually one of the smaller events in the finale."

So I don't doubt the fight is going to happen.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 4:11 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

I find most Killer of the Week shows to be gratuitous -- artfully displayed partially-nude women's bodies (almost always women, almost always looking attractive in death), a measured nonchalance from all of the characters, an approach to death that treats death as a plot point instead of an emotional event.

Or to quote Nussbaum on True Detective:

On the other hand, you might take a close look at the show’s opening credits, which suggest a simpler tale: one about heroic male outlines and closeups of female asses. The more episodes that go by, the more I’m starting to suspect that those asses tell the real story.

The crimes portrayed in Hannibal destroy the people they touch. The bodies are artful, but nonsexual: disturbing and operating in a liminal space that death itself often also lives in. This makes sense--of all of Fuller's series, 3 of the 4 have dealt extensively with death. Two of these made death explicitly liminal by introducing supernatural elements: George and co. stuck in a form of postmortem officework limbo in Dead Like Me, Chuck's undeath-unlife in Pushing Daisies. They are at the borders.

Hannibal's approach to the liminality of death is less supernatural and more about straddling the borders of many concepts: beauty in decay (also seen in Six Feet Under), madness and insight, goodness and evil, sexuality/sensuality and the mundane, mundanity and exceptionality, etc.

I find it much less exploitative than, say, Criminal Minds, which revels in whatever they can show, in how shocking they can be on networks. Hannibal (the show) finds beauty in death because Fuller refuses to conceive of death as the arch negative of existence, but instead as the next step. It doesn't revel. I think this interview with Fuller explores that well (superduper spoilers for most recent episode): about what inspires a certain tableau, and about how he conceptualizes grief.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 4:28 AM on April 1, 2014 [9 favorites]

Phew. What Fuller says about Hannibal looking like Frasier Crane to the others and that's why they don't suspect him - yeah, but then there was that explication right here about how intimidating and commanding he is. And I keep yelling that Hannibal has always been the one other person who could have done it. And they've seen his surgical skills firsthand. It just doesn't seem enough to say he doesn't look the type. Obviously serial killers can look innocuous, the BAU should know that better than anyone.

But then I guess that's the point, that people go by superficial appearances. Hannibal himself tells Bev she'll have to look below the surface. And this is referring to a body they haven't even had time to autopsy yet. We judge by appearances because that's the best we have to go on in the time we have available.
posted by tel3path at 4:43 AM on April 1, 2014

Is there a super-cut online that makes Frasier appear to be a show about a serial killer? Better yet, why isn't Kelsey Grammar making a Frasier sequel where Frasier is a serial killer?
posted by codacorolla at 5:37 AM on April 1, 2014 [8 favorites]

Is Hannibal the most life-affirming show on television?
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 AM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

an approach to death that treats death as a plot point instead of an emotional event.

That kind of perfectly sums up every novel Thomas Harris has ever written.
posted by localroger at 5:43 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

No matter how good the show is I can't get over the fact that the dude's name rhymes with cannibal. Like if Dexter was instead called Derial Miller... fucking ridiculous
posted by MangyCarface at 6:56 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

We're just waiting for somebody to hear the news and then go "It fucking rhymes!"
posted by The Whelk at 7:16 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

Mangy, you have to remember that as Harris originally conceived Hannibal, he was not the main character; he was more like the lead singer of a Greek chorus, or a shamanic Trickster. He very much played the role supernatural forces did in classical drama, and so the rhyming name was like the oversized pencils they use in stage plays. It fit his role in the story as something not quite, and almost certainly larger than, human.

This sort of falls apart when you look too closely at him interacting more normally with regular humans, though, so particularly in the present series it is kind of a joke. But the fact that nobody finds it particularly odd is part of his mystery. The series takes place in a not quite parallel universe where some things which would freak us right out are taken completely for granted, such as the incredibly high frequency of aesthetic art murders. There is also the mental hospital with no obvious infrastructure for security despite the bizarrely elaborate measures they sometimes feel the need to use, the observatory with no lock on the front door, and so on. In important ways the entire universe of the series seems to be operating on dream logic.
posted by localroger at 7:25 AM on April 1, 2014 [7 favorites]

It's like how in fairytales no one bats an eye if animals start talking. It's just something animals do (which ...raises so many questions...)

The Baltimore Society For The Promotion Of Art Murder must get federal funding or something.
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 AM on April 1, 2014 [4 favorites]

Well it's more likely that law enforcement (and serial killers) have the ability to open locked doors, and he probably left the door unlocked so Freddie Lounds could get in.

I mean they'd be pretty useless cops and killers if they just stood there staring at a locked door and said, "Welp, that's just too hard. Everybody go home."
posted by tel3path at 8:05 AM on April 1, 2014

Solution, Hannibal owns the Observatory through a series of shell companies and charity holdings.
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

Actually, that wouldn't be OOC for him.
posted by tel3path at 8:11 AM on April 1, 2014

There is also the mental hospital with no obvious infrastructure for security despite the bizarrely elaborate measures they sometimes feel the need to use, the observatory with no lock on the front door, and so on.

Speaking of unlocked Baltimore observatories: maybe this has changed since, but when I was in school about five years ago, there was an observatory on Hopkins's Homewood campus that you could walk right into, and go wonder around in for a few floors. You needed a key to go into the "inner chamber" where you could look through the telescope, but those keys weren't hard to get, you just had to show a slight interest in astronomy and ask and you could have one. What Hannibal would have had to worry most about there would have been running into some potheads while hauling those Beverly slides in and out of the elevator.

I've also never seen a (mental) hospital with anywhere near the amount of weird, creep-as-hell security that BSHCI has. Those "therapy cages"? *shudder* To me, the place has way too many locks, and not nearly enough drugs. Why even bother with the cells, just over-medicate.

My favorite thing about the show is how dreamlike it is, though. It's like everybody involved is on a never-ending acid trip.
posted by rue72 at 9:39 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hrm. I love reading Hannibal meta and seeing all the pretty gifsets on Tumblr; I just can't stand the show, and I wish I could.* The first two episodes completely put me off with what common-or-garden jerks all the characters except Will and Hannibal seemed to be, and what a weird conception of empathy the show seemed to have.

The concept of Will having an "empathy disorder" is one of the first things Hannibal does to separate him from the rest of the characters; taking a noble characteristic (albeit in Will's case being able to put himself in the shoes of murderers does take a psychic toll) & turning it into a pathology in the minds of Jack, Alana and Will himself. As for the other characters, they become more nuanced over the course of the two season (except for 2/3rds of Team Sassy Science - Jimmy & Brian - who mostly remain comedic foils to the other characters).

Part of what makes Will appear to such an ill-fit for the team, and the work itself, is that he comes off as abrasive and standoffish. It's not so much that the other characters lack empathy, it's that Jack has brought someone on the team who seemingly doesn't play well with others. You really can't fault them for not liking Will because at first glance it seems like he deliberately goes out of his way to distance himself from them. The viewer has the insight that Will is prickly and standoffish because he has very little experience with making and keeping friends (a childhood with a dead or MIA mom, dad who kept moving them around the country so frequently that Will never had time to put down roots and makes friends) and because finds the world around him with all of it's cruelties to be overwhelming (the phrase "a skin too few" seems very apt in his case).

If I were you, I'd give the show another shot, starting where you left off. You start to see more of the other characters inner conflicts and motivations. It definitely becomes more interesting as the emotional and psychological stakes reveal themselves.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:45 AM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

Is there a super-cut online that makes Frasier appear to be a show about a serial killer? Better yet, why isn't Kelsey Grammar making a Frasier sequel where Frasier is a serial killer?

This is the closest we've gotten to date.
posted by sparkletone at 9:57 AM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

I've been watching, but not really enjoying, this show. I don't want to turn my back on it.

I agree with others who say that the artistic display of corpses goes too far for network television. I'd long ago gotten bored with the elevation of serial killers (or their trackers) as heroes. I do understand that this show is going for a different aesthetic than most shows. I'm pretty sure I "get" it, but I am not a fan.

I do think it suffers horribly from Small Cast Syndrome. Were these grotesque murders happening in the real world, there'd be a hundreds of agents involved, and the press wouldn't be limited to one person with a website. Just in this season alone you have Crawford on the stand admitting he pushed Graham too far, yet a few episodes later he's letting his two remaining forensic guys inspect the remains of their colleague. In another instance, the only orderly we see at the asylum turns out to be a serial killer as well. (And why didn't they milk that out for a few episodes?) So the issue I see with this show isn't in pushing the art-gore too far (though it is), it's that it offers a too narrow, narcissistic, dressed up yet dumbed down view of the world. Where the internal lives of these characters are of such utmost importance that everything that is passed off as plot constantly teeters at the edge of imploding.
posted by Catblack at 10:12 AM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

(Unrelated note I am eating very fancy seafood ceviche in my hugo boss jacket and just noted there is whelk in it ... o.0)
posted by The Whelk at 11:03 AM on April 1, 2014 [4 favorites]

The different approach isn't limited to the visual presentation; it's a complex and in some ways metaphysical worldview which isn't at all in the expected mindset of a genre show.

A lot of the things you're taking issue with are deliberate - for example, Crawford tries to insist that the two forensics guys should *not* be the ones to process their colleague's remains, but they overrule him and assert that they *must* do it in her honour. That they proceed to do it is an example of how people constantly cross professional lines that they shouldn't, to the entire detriment of their ability to work effectively; they make bad decision after bad decision, all because their judgement is so compromised by personal loyalties that they're incapable of seeing which way is up.

I mean, if the show's too gory for you or you just disagree with its premise, I'm not gonna try to tell you you logically ought to like it. I guess I'm just challenging your assertion that you "get it". But if you don't want it, you probably don't need to get it, so it's moot.
posted by tel3path at 11:11 AM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

Ah, Whelk, this show *is* a bad influence after all. At least one of our number has turned to designer cannibalism under its spell.
posted by tel3path at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2014

In the end it jyst may be ....a matter of taste.
posted by The Whelk at 11:24 AM on April 1, 2014

I think we're meant to look past the Small Cast Syndrome in the same way we'd look past it in a theatrical play. The series isn't trying to be realistic; it's trying to create a sense of place, time, and character in a very economical way. I look at it not that there is an unrealistically small number of agents for all these cases, but that those other agents are implied but not shown because it would be both expensive and confusing to haul them in. We are tracking the characters, locations, and images which are necessary for the story the series is telling; we know the rest is there, just as theatre patrons know several different minor characters in a play are different people even though they may be played by the same actor.

And I think part of the series' charm is that it is asking us to do this, and it's a thing that involves us in this story in ways we'd normally miss as we fill in those missing details and focus together on the important structural elements. It's really kind of refreshing and different in a world where CGI has made fantastic ultra-realism the order of the day even for TV shows.
posted by localroger at 11:36 AM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm really enjoying having you guys explain the appeal of this show. Please keep going. :) Thanks echolalia67, especially.
posted by daisyk at 12:07 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm really enjoying having you guys explain the appeal of this show. Please keep going. :) Thanks echolalia67, especially.

It's all fun and games and being thoughtful now, and then for a few hours every Friday evening US time... The shrieking. The flailing. The not being okay.
posted by sparkletone at 12:30 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

and then for a few hours every Friday evening US time... The shrieking. The flailing. The not being okay.

Sooooo delicious.
posted by localroger at 1:28 PM on April 1, 2014

I keep forgetting to post one of the only April Fools things that made me so much as smirk today.
posted by sparkletone at 2:06 PM on April 1, 2014 [5 favorites]

I did not realize until recently that Hannibal Lecter only has about 16 minutes of screen time in Silence of the Lambs.
posted by Dr. Zira at 2:08 PM on April 1, 2014

I did not realize until recently that Hannibal Lecter only has about 16 minutes of screen time in Silence of the Lambs.

That throws me every time I watch the movie because Hopkins is so fucking perfect. He looms in your mind overshadowing a bunch of other people doing a really damn fine job acting and just that perfectly applied little bit of him goes a long way. At least with that characterization of Hannibal. The dangers of overplaying that version of him are even more apparent given how the more recent movies have turned out.

I'm less afraid of those dangers with this show though. For one thing, this is a less already over the top version of the character that I think has more room for growth/change before self-parody sets in. This Hannibal is still wearing his person suit and doesn't seem like the sort of person that would ever under any circumstances make that awful (in a good way) "thththththth" sound that Hopkins made famous.

The later movies suffer from many problems, but I don't see the cartoonification of Lecter setting in. He'll remain scary to us without them needing to overplay or amp up the character because we'll have so much first-hand audience experience of what a terrifying monster he's been right before our very eyes.
posted by sparkletone at 2:27 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

I did not realize until recently that Hannibal Lecter only has about 16 minutes of screen time in Silence of the Lambs.

At the time there was a lot of arguing about whether his short time on screen meant he should have been up for Best Supporting Actor and not Best Actor.

But winning Best Actor meant SOTL became only the third film in Academy History to win the Top Five: Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Actor and Best Actress.
posted by crossoverman at 2:54 PM on April 1, 2014

I often list SOTL as one of my favorite adaptations as far as figuring out what to drop and what to keep for the transition to the screen. My one peeve with the movie is that there is one place where it lies to you (the misleading establishing shots that lead to the "HA HA DIFFERENT BASEMENT, PSYCH!" fake-out).
posted by rmd1023 at 3:00 PM on April 1, 2014

I also didn't like what the SOTL movie did with Clarice's formative experience with the lambs; in the book she led away the blind horse Hannah, and even though she was caught the horse was sent to the orphanage with her to live out her days giving rides to the kids, and Clarice saved it. In the movie she tries to save one of the doomed lambs only to have it snatched from her and sent back to the lambchop mill. That would leave a completely different impression on most people.

But therwise, one of the finest screen adaptations evah. Hopkins didn't quite play Hannibal as Harris wrote him (Brian Cox and Mads are much closer to the text) but he played the character to make the most of limited screen time. Unfortunately the hammy bits that magnify him so much in that sort of presentation are a bit overboard when he's carrying the whole movie.
posted by localroger at 3:06 PM on April 1, 2014 [3 favorites]

"HA HA DIFFERENT BASEMENT, PSYCH!" fake-out

Yes, that always bugged me: it's such a cheap gag.

It amazes me how much of a long shadow SOTL has cast. Most recently: the last 10 minutes of True Detective drank very deeply from SOTL's creepy-murder-dungeon well.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:02 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

(the misleading establishing shots that lead to the "HA HA DIFFERENT BASEMENT, PSYCH!" fake-out)

I never felt cheated by that moment, though you're not the first person I've heard say they did. When I finally got around to reading the book, I found that the book more or less does the same fake out as far as I'm concerned, and have trouble telling why one's a cheat and one is it. (Or maybe they both cheat!)

In the book we get the tail end of a chapter of Crawford and co. suiting up to go bust an address that we have every reason to believe could be legit. In both works, Clarice is just following up some final leads with acquaintances of one of Gumb's earlier victims.

Then Harris starts a new chapter and switches to following Gumb around for a bit as he finally starts his pregame ritual for killing the girl currently in his well. We've been following Gumb rather tightly in terms of perspective so far in this chapter, and don't know that Clarice is on her way to him till he gets interrupted by the door. When he opens it, the book simply says:

Banging again. [Gumb] opened the door a crack on the chain.
"I tried the front but nobody came,” Clarice Starling said. “I’m looking for Mrs. Lippman’s family, could you help me?”

That's the first time she's been mentioned in this chapter after quite a few pages away from her or Crawford's bits of the narrative. I get the same "OH FUCK" feeling from both book and movie at that moment. One does it with a trick of film grammar, the other does it with a trick of narrative perspective and chapter structure.
posted by sparkletone at 4:10 PM on April 1, 2014 [5 favorites]

> But winning Best Actor meant SOTL became only the third film in Academy History to win the Top Five: Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Actor and Best Actress.

I'm always amused that of the three movies that won the Big Five, one's a comedy and one's a horror movie. Two genres that have traditionally not gotten a lot of respect from the Academy.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:30 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

The horse/lamb thing doesn't bother me cause in the scope of a novel you can have moments that wander and inform but a movie really requires laser focus so the "I tried to save something, I failed." works better cause we're hearing that in a Lecter scene, where Movie!Clarice is at her best vulnerable and on point. Also, title.

The screenplay is really clean and direct too, same person did the Red Dragon adaptation and again, it's a good example of the role of a director in shaping a film cause on paper that script is fine but the movie ......

SotL ..is really a masterwork in how to adapt something, Demme wanted to film the book word for word, beat for beat, ..there exist many deleted scenes that indicate he almost shot it that way but cooler heads prevailed in the editting room ( and a lot of the deleted scenes don't look like they made it that fat, this is like Demme's Most Scenes Shot/Least Scenes shown movie.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:20 PM on April 1, 2014

Also, in the show, the playlike feeling is really pushed cause most scenes are just conversations between two characters. Like I could see a stage adaptation of the first season that is almost just Will and Hannibal talking with little ore-filmed video interludes as the connective tissue and it work.
posted by The Whelk at 5:26 PM on April 1, 2014

My one peeve with the movie is that there is one place where it lies to you (the misleading establishing shots that lead to the "HA HA DIFFERENT BASEMENT, PSYCH!" fake-out).

It's a misdirection, sure. But it doesn't lie to you. I happen to love that cut - and have seen it tried a lot since and never quite working as well.

In comparison, the film The Usual Suspects blatantly lies to the audience by showing the place where Keyser Soze is supposed to be hiding out on the boat - a shot that implies that's where he is watching from, but the shot is a lie because he's not actually there at all. (I'd be okay with that lie too, if Kint's narration had begun by that point, but it hadn't.)
posted by crossoverman at 5:27 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

requires laser focus so the "I tried to save something, I failed."

But the problem is that was not Clarice's experience in any form. She was so earnest and hopeful precisely because she had had the experience of saving something doomed. She had not saved the lambs but she had saved something and that is what gave her the energy to try, even in the face of insurmountable odds and likely failure, to try to save something else.

Sure movies have to be telescoped but the alternative just doesn't work for me. The adult Clarice who grew up from the movie-child Clarice would have given up, never tried to save anything else ever again, and drowned her disillusionment in some intoxicant.
posted by localroger at 6:21 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

We had a deal, Kyle: "It amazes me how much of a long shadow SOTL has cast. Most recently: the last 10 minutes of True Detective drank very deeply from SOTL's creepy-murder-dungeon well."

The Murder Fort wasn't the only reference; in the True Detective thread, heatvision spotted a musical reference from SOTL as well.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:32 PM on April 1, 2014

crossoverman: That's pretty much the reason I really didn't like TUS when I saw it. People keep telling me to give it another shot, and maybe it'll be different knowing the level of unreliable going on, but I'm not sure it will.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:07 PM on April 1, 2014

I figured out the cheat and who Keyser Soze was pretty early in the film, so that's the reason I wasn't a big fan of The Usual Suspects when everybody else loved it.
posted by crossoverman at 9:02 PM on April 1, 2014

what I like about Hannibal is that we know who the villain is. We know this is our monster demon vampire and he WILL get caught. So we can deal with more the OH GOD ways in the why/how donit.
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 PM on April 1, 2014 [1 favorite]

also I feel the need to link to this Bedelia/Hannibal DISNEY riff cause of god just listen to it
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on April 1, 2014 [2 favorites]

I want this thread in my recent activity, so I'm just gonna say that I felt cheated by the twist in "The Usual Suspects" but the switcheroo in "Silence of the Lambs" didn't bother me. Carry on.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:57 AM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah. TUS really annoyed me and made me really dislike the movie. SOTL, it was just "oh, you sneaky bastards, i see what you did there."
posted by rmd1023 at 8:03 AM on April 2, 2014

Just discovered, fallen in love with and caught up to the new episodes of this show. The relevant threads provided another solid chunk of entertainment and reminded me of why I love this place so much.

For the record, the Beverly Pie was probably the first dish that did not look absolutely fecking deliciousto me.
posted by ominous_paws at 10:10 AM on April 2, 2014

For the record, the Beverly Pie was probably the first dish that did not look absolutely fecking delicious to me.

On first watch, I was too busy pointing at my computer with one hand, flapping the other one, and making choked noises of disgust/disbelief because that smug fucker actually cooked part of it to look like Will's goddam mask. I'd put that at number 2 slightly below the coin toss for, "I CANNOT EVEN BELIEVE YOU JUST DID THAT," so far this season. I know in the timeline of the episode, the interview with Freddie hadn't happened yet, but it's so easy to believe that she'd already put up pictures (we see her taking them) that as far as I'm concerned there's no way Hannibal didn't cook it that way on purpose.

On rewatch, the mask mirroring aside, that's not the most eye-catching presentation our fancy cannibal has done to date. Also, that shot of the meat coming out of the grinder reminded me of a particularly difficult-to-watch NIN video.

The breakfast he made for himself and Jack at the start of the episode looked delicious though, and I really love what they've been doing with occasionally mirroring shots of Hannibal's cooking with what Will's eating in the institution. In this episode, that sequence is in part to remind us of the orderly's existence and establish that he brings Will meals and shit, but I also find it just a really cool way of toying with various things. "Evil is so very attractive!" vs "well at least I can be reasonably sure it's not people" etc etc.

My favorites so far are probably the leg osso bucco and the "pork loin" thing in 1x02 that he feeds Jack that was used in one of my favorite fannibal tumblr posts of all time ever.

... It feels weird to be picking favorites in this regard. And yet here we are anyway.
posted by sparkletone at 12:01 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

I totally missed the connection to Will's mask, and instead thought it looked like a honeycomb and thought it was tied in to the bees in the previous week. I knew that didn't make sense for Hannibal himself, because he wasn't involved in that case, but I wondered if it had been a pick just for the visuals.

I'm not entirely convinced that Hannibal thought to himself, "I know! I need to make a pastry case for this pie, I will totally make it to look like the mask they put over my potential killing spree partner, that would be awesome." I figure it's there for us as a metaphor, but not supposed to be taken that literally. Then again, who knows with this show and its love of layering.
posted by PussKillian at 12:07 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

I knew that didn't make sense for Hannibal himself, because he wasn't involved in that case, but I wondered if it had been a pick just for the visuals.

What really puts it over the top is that it's got a little upswell in the center for the nose right above the breathing holes which are even arranged like the ones in Will's version of the iconic mask.

Like I said, the episode doesn't show Hannibal seeing pictures of Will till later when the interview's published, but aaaaghhhhhh. Of course it's not a coincidence on the parts of the show's creators, but from Hannibal's character standpoint... That dude loves cannibal puns so much, and that little bit of the pie is a total visual one! It's a headcanon, but it's one that I can't rid myself of.

Completely unrelated: If our fancy cannibal eats the rude, does he turn the most polite into books? Alternately: That would be a really fantastic idea for a case of the week killer. THE LIBRARIAN.
posted by sparkletone at 12:32 PM on April 2, 2014

The food stylist's (ridiculous, gorgeous) blog talks a bit about the mask-pastry thing.
posted by Stacey at 12:45 PM on April 2, 2014

The food stylist's (ridiculous, gorgeous) blog talks a bit about the mask-pastry thing.

My favorite anecdotes on there aside from the thing I quoted in a different thread about Madds not needing a hand double to do the catch-the-egg-on-a-spatula-edge trick are the ones about her emailing random friends/family questions to help figure out ideas for the show. I just love the idea of these random people in her life semi-regularly getting these really morbid questions about how to disguise human flesh as something else.

Along those lines: It only just occurred to me that the google histories of the writers and their assistant(s) on this show must be pretty alarming out of context.
posted by sparkletone at 12:48 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

Late to the party, but my god last week's episode was an incredible hour of TV. And Izzard REALLY stepped up his game. In his first appearance I didn't really like his accent or his mannerisms, despite liking the character and Izzard himself, but in this episode he BROUGHT IT.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:17 PM on April 2, 2014

One of the best things about this show is the beautiful fanart it's generated. Check out this image of Hannibal and Bedelia being wary around each other.
posted by PussKillian at 4:04 PM on April 2, 2014

One of the best things about this show is the beautiful fanart it's generated. Check out this image of Hannibal and Bedelia being wary around each other.

It doesn't gross me out, but at the same time I could do without the lovingly rendered drawings of Hannigram that occasionally pop up on my dash, if only because I'm frequently browsing on my phone somewhere kinda public.

At the same time, that's totally worth it for catching stuff like that, or this rendering of Chilton I saw this afternoon.
posted by sparkletone at 6:29 PM on April 2, 2014

The 48 +/- hour countdown to being kicked in the feels has commenced.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:20 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

The 48 +/- hour countdown to being kicked in the feels has commenced.

I was wondering what that tingling at the base of my skull was.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

T MINUS TO FEELINGS
posted by The Whelk at 9:18 PM on April 2, 2014 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: Being kicked in the feels.
and liking it.
posted by localroger at 5:29 AM on April 3, 2014 [3 favorites]

It doesn't gross me out, but at the same time I could do without the lovingly rendered drawings of Hannigram that occasionally pop up on my dash, if only because I'm frequently browsing on my phone somewhere kinda public.

I hear you. I really don't want my kid walking in on me while I'm perusing some of the more explicit drawings. It's too soon for the "sometimes, when a cannibal and his unwitting victim really love each other ..." conversation.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:26 PM on April 3, 2014 [2 favorites]

AV Club/Hulu's Best In Show reaches the final showdown: Between Hannibal & Game of Thrones. Go Hannibal!
posted by crossoverman at 6:51 PM on April 3, 2014

Amusingly enough I just put S1 of Game of Thrones in my Netflix DVD queue to start catching up on it.
posted by localroger at 6:57 PM on April 3, 2014

AV Club/Hulu's Best In Show reaches the final showdown: Between Hannibal & Game of Thrones. Go Hannibal!

Having to vote against Community pained me in my soul, but Community's won, like, twice already. I adore GoT but... Yeah. This last round ain't no contest. I only worry that GoT's base is more massive and will overwhelm with simple numbers.

I'm pretty sure you can vote as many times as you want. In past rounds I've just voted the once. Since it's the final round and it's Game of Thrones, I've basically been voting every time I see a link to it anywhere (this one, reblogs on tumblr whenever it pops up, etc).
posted by sparkletone at 7:13 PM on April 3, 2014

At the moment, it's overwhelmingly Hannibal, which is great. But yeah, that's part of the reason I posted the link - need to boost support!
posted by crossoverman at 7:53 PM on April 3, 2014

The 48 +/- hour countdown to being kicked in the feels has commenced.

Twenty-twenty-twenty four hours to go I wanna be sedated
posted by homunculus at 9:06 PM on April 3, 2014 [1 favorite]

And we're promised the ultra-most shockingest Hannimoment evar.

why, nbc, why
posted by tel3path at 3:44 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure if it'll be this episode or an upcoming one, but it sure doesn't look good for Alana. Oh, my feels are aching already. Damn you Fuller, damn you!
posted by echolalia67 at 7:48 AM on April 4, 2014

Tonight's Hannidinner is roast duck breast in a plum cherry glaze with long grain and wild rice tossed with roast almonds.
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

The fan art promoted on the official tumblr for this week's episode is maybe my favorite yet, even as I wince at the (well-done) reference to seductive harpsichord.
posted by sparkletone at 9:26 AM on April 4, 2014

I AM NOT READY.

(But I am so stoked. :D!)
posted by dogheart at 6:47 PM on April 4, 2014

I AM NOT OKAY *holds a tiny stuffed animal while screaming *

NOT OKAY
posted by The Whelk at 6:48 PM on April 4, 2014

AHHHHHH. FANCY DINNER RAN LONG BECAUSE REASONS. I'm definitely missing the pre-credits bit but probably not anything more.

Fancy dinner was fancy though. Will post things once I'm on a real keyboard
posted by sparkletone at 7:02 PM on April 4, 2014

THE ROLODEX
posted by The Whelk at 7:07 PM on April 4, 2014

Starting something this fast means you've got a big thing planned aaaaaaaaaah
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on April 4, 2014

Everything but the lungs
posted by The Whelk at 7:12 PM on April 4, 2014

Oh you fucking fucker
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on April 4, 2014

MISSED THE FIRST EIGHT MINUTES. ONLY JUST NOW SETTLED IN ENOUGH TO TYPE.

THAT CONVERSATION.

NOT OKAY.
posted by sparkletone at 7:14 PM on April 4, 2014

THAT CONVERSATION WAS DINNER PARTY.

THIS CONVERSATION: HOLY FUCK CHILTON HAS THIS ALL ON TAPE. AND. IS. DOING. A. THING!!!!!!
posted by sparkletone at 7:15 PM on April 4, 2014

Wanted to see what would happen....

ALSO LEDA AND SWAN REFERENCE FUCK
posted by The Whelk at 7:15 PM on April 4, 2014

See y'all at 10 PST ... I'm on radio silence until then.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:16 PM on April 4, 2014

CHILTON IS BEING A BAD ASS OH GOD EVERYONE IS FINALLY MAKING THE CONNECTIONS
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

OH GOD OH GOD
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on April 4, 2014

ALANA NOOOO
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on April 4, 2014

Chilton doing one non-slimy thing in his life!

FANCY DINNER: It was here. It was very, very good and worth 8 minutes of Hannibal.

Had:

CEVICHE (split among table)
ahi ahi, chimichurri, celery, green tomato, apple, anise hyssop, lemon

CRAB CAKE (split among table)
penitence rye stout mustard, celery root, marscapone vinaigrette, herbs

BLACK COD (all mine)
spaghetti squash carbonara, guanciale, herbs parmesan, shallots, poached egg

The bites I had of my friends' food was delicious also.

To drink for me: The drink menu on the website is out of date and I can't remember all the ingredients. It was basically a dark and stormy with some orange bitters and one other thing. Also they used little ice so it started out as a booze slushy.

FANCIEST THIS WEEK IS ME, BITCHES.
posted by sparkletone at 7:25 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

PS. I am totes doing fancy fucking steak frites and a bottle of wine for the finale. Hash tag ballin' out of control (also hash tag sobbing out of control).
posted by sparkletone at 7:26 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

WE ARE NEVER EVER GETTING BACK TOGETHER
posted by The Whelk at 7:26 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

IM JUST GOING TO BE HERE, BEHIND MY BLANKET WHERE HANNIBAL CAN'T GET ME
posted by The Whelk at 7:28 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

In the chat on the streaming site I'm on: "My Hannigram ship just crashed into an iceberg... :("
posted by sparkletone at 7:29 PM on April 4, 2014

What do you think his suit protector budget was for this dinner party?
posted by sparkletone at 7:31 PM on April 4, 2014

Dear God is he eating everyone?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on April 4, 2014

EVERYONE
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on April 4, 2014

GIDEON, YOU FUCKER. AGGHHHHH... But I love that he's making trouble for Chilton.
posted by sparkletone at 7:33 PM on April 4, 2014

Welp.
posted by sparkletone at 7:36 PM on April 4, 2014

AND WE HAVE DEATH NUMBER TWO
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on April 4, 2014

Dear God is Hannibal ASCOTTING?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:41 PM on April 4, 2014

Hannibal has the greatest fucking tupperware the earth has ever seen. God damn you, Fancy Cannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 7:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

ASCOTS
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on April 4, 2014

Somewhere dogheart is shrieking and clutching at her chest before her heart gives out....
posted by sparkletone at 7:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

that wink omg
posted by Small Dollar at 7:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh noes.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:43 PM on April 4, 2014

MURDER SCRUBS
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on April 4, 2014

W E L P
posted by sparkletone at 7:45 PM on April 4, 2014

Scenes from a manhattan apartment : me screaming NO NO NO NO at the TV
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 PM on April 4, 2014

A BLANKET DIDN'T PROTECT GIDEON, WHELK. WILL IT PROTECT YOU? D: D: D:
posted by sparkletone at 7:47 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

IM GOING TO THAT ISLAND BEDELIA IS ON
posted by The Whelk at 7:48 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Killing Gideon is a HUGE HUGE blunder by Hannibal, I think. Especially given the climate now. This is a giant over-reach and he gonna pay. Hannibal "Hubris" Lecter.
posted by sparkletone at 7:50 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

"I was thinking about funerals..." Talk gothy to me, Alana.
posted by sparkletone at 7:50 PM on April 4, 2014

He's got an alibi. A sexy alibi. A sexybi.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on April 4, 2014

He's got an alibi. A sexy alibi. A sexybi.

Nah. This just makes Jack more suspicious. Doesn't matter that he has an alibi. That alibi has a BIG hole in it. Alana slept through the night. She doesn't know he was next to her the whole time. She literally can't.
posted by sparkletone at 7:52 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

HIS HOUSE

HIS RED SWEATER

I AM MAKING LOTS OF INVOLUNTARY NOISES

OH ALANA CAN AAAAAH
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

OR I GUESS SHE CAN. Eff.

Still. Jack is HUGELY suspicious now in a way he wasn't even before the Chilton thing.
posted by sparkletone at 7:53 PM on April 4, 2014

Wait, wait, what? He put Gideon in the murder basement and is now ... fucking feeding him himself? WHAT THE FUCK. HOW CAN THEY SHOW THIS ON NETWORK TV?
posted by sparkletone at 7:55 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, jesus, we're brushing right up against my limits here.
posted by gladly at 7:55 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

NOT LIKE THIS NEVER LIKE THIS
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 PM on April 4, 2014

Look yes good Chilton and Jack get a clue but

MY SHIP

I AM DEAD

(no you don't understand my thing becomes canon at the height of my obsession this is a peak fandom experience)

I AM SO HAPPY
posted by dogheart at 7:56 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

FUCKING GOD HIS LIVING ROOM
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on April 4, 2014

WELP. HERE WE GO. HAPPY SPOILER LINK EVERYONE THAT DIDN'T CLICK IT.
posted by sparkletone at 7:57 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh shit here we go
posted by dogheart at 7:58 PM on April 4, 2014

I love that Jack is wearing his best crime solving hat.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:58 PM on April 4, 2014

To the preview: WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK WILL GETS HIS DOGS BACK
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on April 4, 2014 [6 favorites]

Anyway, so that was a fucking HELL of an episode. I still need to process it more, but Fuller was not fucking kidding about 5+ being a ride
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

And now you can all lose your shit
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on April 4, 2014

A television show has never made me this happy in MY ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE
posted by dogheart at 8:04 PM on April 4, 2014

I think the shit has been lost.
posted by localroger at 8:04 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

A television show has never made me this happy in MY ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE

Someone with $TALENT needs to take that FUCKING HORRIBLE SONG FROM DESPICABLE ME-TOO and remix it with Hannibal scenes.
posted by localroger at 8:06 PM on April 4, 2014

He totally drugged Alana you guys
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

I was spoiled for that last bit, but my shit is still lost because HOLY HELL, GIDEON. Also, Raul Esparza is so completely delightful at being a smug little shit, I hope Chilton manages to not be eaten for a little longer.
posted by Stacey at 8:09 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is literally the only show where I have no idea how it's gonna play out , like I can't see the through line anymore

Jesus fuck
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on April 4, 2014

I am surprised he didn't Art Murder Alana for playing Chopsticks on his harpsichord. Tacky and rude...
posted by maggieb at 8:11 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

Once I can breathe again, we need to discuss what Hannibal was wearing with the Red Sweater of Casual Friday Hotness. Were those striped pajama pants? Are even his pajamas fabulous? I need to know more.
posted by Stacey at 8:13 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I just

Yes my ship happened (oh my god and how I could go on I probably will at least on tumblr when I'm not MADE OF FLAIL) but oh my god

That was SO GOOD. MY SHOW. LIVE FOREVER SHOW
posted by dogheart at 8:15 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

So uh uh huh is the last six episodes going to be everyone believing will graham but not able to prove it cause that would be fun
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Seeing his living room is seriously upsetting me.
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on April 4, 2014

I have died like six times in the past hour and a half, so:

Frederick Chilton singing West Side Story, everyone!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACJc4eYzQgc

Not calming enough? Fine. Here he is doing Funny Girl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5IuqHzOnUM
posted by ausdemfenster at 8:22 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

When Hannibal goes on these killing sprees for massive dinner parties, do we think he's just dumping the bodies that don't rate tableaux? Or are there like five random Art Murders in a week that we're not even seeing? Just, bodies all over the city and our heroes can't even deal so somewhere there's a backup squad of investigators trying to figure out bodies with orchids growing out of their ears, posed in homages to Seven Brides for Seven Brothers?
posted by Stacey at 8:22 PM on April 4, 2014

Poll: Whooooo pumped his/her fists in the air when Chilton got to, "it fucking rhymes!"?
posted by ausdemfenster at 8:23 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

Nearly this entire episode was inside Hannibal's mind so of course it had jaunty ironic music and farce and then OH GOD
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY SAY IT BUT HE SAYS HANNIBAL THE CANNIBAL THAT'S WHAT THEY CALL HIM AND THEN HE MAKES A FAAAAACE
posted by The Whelk at 8:25 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

Poll: Whooooo pumped his/her fists in the air when Chilton got to, "it fucking rhymes!"?

If no one literally says the phrase, "It actually rhymes!" I'm going to be upset because that shouldn't have been wasted on Chilton, as much I (mostly) loved the smug little prick this episode.
posted by sparkletone at 8:25 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal probably at the special hearts, etc. himself and/or in carefully distributed samples.

His look in response to Jack taking food to go was likely legit concern over being investigated or actual concern about proper presentation and consumption of the food.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:26 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is literally the only show where I have no idea how it's gonna play out , like I can't see the through line anymore

This is one of the most important things that makes it work. Yeah Fuller is fucking with us. And we like it.
posted by localroger at 8:27 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

"So next week is fully 60 minutes of Will playing with his dogs, right?"
posted by ausdemfenster at 8:34 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

You know what.

I think I underestimated Dr. Lecter.

He doesn't want to get away with it.

He wants to get away with it and let YOU know that HE KNOWS YOU KNOW he got away with it.

He's preening. Peacocking. He wants everybody to know he's a cannibal ripper and they can do noooothing about it.

It's like feeding someone their leg

The ultimate position of power.
posted by The Whelk at 8:35 PM on April 4, 2014 [10 favorites]

YES GET COCKY YOU TOTAL BASTARD

I just so want her to be instrumental in his downfall. Please Fuller. WHY NOT YOU'VE GIVEN ME EVERYTHING ELSE I WANT
posted by dogheart at 8:41 PM on April 4, 2014

THE GOOD SHIP HANNIBLOOM COMES IN CANONS BLAZING SINKING THE DECOY HANNIGRAHAM SHIP TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

THIS SHOW I feel like I need a cigarette
posted by The Whelk at 8:45 PM on April 4, 2014

It occurs to me that tonight Bryan Fuller just SLAM DUNKED on the Krendler scene from Hannibal the movie. And not just any old dunk, freakin' CHAOS DUNK.
posted by sparkletone at 8:49 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

If one of the wait staff at a Hannibal dinner party fucks something up, do they go in the rolodex?
posted by sparkletone at 8:58 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

And how long are rehearsals with them putting down trays in little formations like Esther Williams water ballet numbers? Hannibal in a director's chair and bullhorn saying, "Again! You pivoted a half-second too slowly, number 3. I will not have my perfect picture sullied."
posted by PussKillian at 9:02 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is literally the only show where I have no idea how it's gonna play out , like I can't see the through line anymore

On rewatch... This was my first thought. We know where it goes. I haven't read spoilery press synopses for 7, 8 or 9 (the most recent to have come out I think), but even just extrapolating from what happened here and what's in the preview...

I can't quite make a path from here to that slugfest between Hannibal and Jack yet and that is so very exciting given how bland and predictable this could be given that we all know Hannibal ends up in BSHCI eventually.

This fucking show.

(will gets his dogs back will gets his dogs back will gets his dogs back)
posted by sparkletone at 9:18 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Me, talking about why something is the way it is in a favorite show/movie/whatever of mine (at least once there's enough interviews and behind the scenes stuff to know for sure).
posted by sparkletone at 9:23 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal really took being almost killed to heart. The presentations since Beverly have been over -the-top elaborate. He's stepping away from Will and the BAU. The big party, with mostly non-human meat. Giving away Miriam Lass and taking Gideon. And, of course, Alana.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:29 PM on April 4, 2014

Also did I not say (in the other thread) Chilton was a strong candidate for next? Sure he was an edge case already but now he is basically convinced Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper and a cannibal.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:32 PM on April 4, 2014

Last thought: the Hannibal of the show is not at all what I would have extrapolated from Silence of the Lambs. (Note: loved the census taker comment) The movie Hannibal had killed some people, brutally, methodically. And even eaten a few. But not as a way of life. Not as a hobby.

After this episode Hannibal is up near 30 that we know of.

I have not read the books and understand that this makes for a better show than a realistic serial killer/cannibal.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:40 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

CENSUS TAKER REFERENCE!

And Will to Jack: "What does he do? What is the first and principal thing that he does? What need does he serve?"

Such Silence of the Lambs references. So good. Wow.
posted by crossoverman at 9:59 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

Bryan Fuller's walkthrough for this episode is up.
posted by crossoverman at 10:18 PM on April 4, 2014

OH GOD MIRAM HAS BEEN BRAIN WASHED

OH GOD

THIS SHOW
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on April 4, 2014

What is its nature?
posted by homunculus at 10:28 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Chesapeake Ripper is claiming all of his kills. Hannibal's composition has an ending. I think right now he's planning on skipping town, but not without letting every one know exactly what he did and how amusing and clever he is. He wants to leave them just enough evidence so they're sure in their hearts he did it, but not enough bring him in.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:08 PM on April 4, 2014

Or that's his backup plan if the uh... surprise in the well doesn't say "Oh this totally different other dude did all this. You wouldn't know him. He's from Canada."
posted by lovecrafty at 11:21 PM on April 4, 2014

Late off a recorded viewing of the wescoast feed here. First I came to say WS has already been said, to whit: this show, oh my fucking go THIS SHOW!

I never expected to be rooting for Chilton the way I did tonight. He stepped UP, while still being oh so Chilton.

That scene, watching Hannibal prepping g this huge cut of meat and wondering where it came from, the. Cut to Gideon on IV fluid and I'm just hand over the mouth...no please no, but it was... And he did it, and he et it. Gahhh!

More proud of Jack tonight than I expected to be. Feel like the eyes may now in fact be open. And Will "more in control than [he] has ever been.". So good.

*overwhelmed excited noises*
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 11:42 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

He wants to leave them just enough evidence so they're sure in their hearts he did it, but not enough bring him in.

Hannibal likes to hurt people, though. He's going to keep going until he has at least Jack in genuine pain, not just frustration or fear. Plus, the nice thing about Hannibal is that since he doesn't really have feelings, he probably doesn't have a very finely tuned fear instinct himself. So he's probably not going to be that great at sensing when he needs to get out anyway and stay a bit too long twisting the knife.

Is this it for Gideon? On the one hand, I like him because at least he *tries* to figure out what's going on and adapt himself to it, but on the other hand, I would be happy if this were the last of him because he's such an idiot. He says he knows he's safe from Hannibal as long as he's in BSHCI, he's told he's on thin ice with everyone at BSHCI (by Chilton), and next thing you know, he's shooting off his mouth to some guards while ON THE STAIRS wearing SHACKLES? So, best case he's pushed down the stairs with no way to break his fall, and worst case he's out of BSHCI and nabbed by Hannibal? WTF was he shooting his mouth off for? Does the guy have a death wish? (Maybe). And then at Hannibal's, he's sitting there actually eating his leg? If there is a time to say "fuck off" to someone it's probably when they've already paralyzed you, served you your own leg on a literal platter, and told you this is your last supper anyway. I mean, if not then, then when? Maybe he's got some plan or something, but I doubt it. Well no, I think he probably does have a plan, because he always does, but it's probably so stupid and self-destructive that it's worse than no plan at all, because it always is. Poor thing, he's just a disaster, I don't know how he got into med school in the first place.

Anyway, my favorite moment was when Will told Jack that he was feeling "happy anticipation of being able to feel contempt." First off, because rage has got to be all that's keeping Will going at this point. And that's such a perfect description of wanting *so bad* to hit back, knowing you can't, but assuring yourself you will. Feel ya, buddy. Second off, because I just *know* there's a German word for that, and now I'm curious what it is?

Anyway, Alana is apparently immune to learning, and bases everything on her emotions and assumptions anyway, and Jack apparently prioritizes throwing his weight around above *everything,* and I don't understand either of them. Why is Chilton's recording of Gideon more reason to investigate Hannibal than Beverly being murdered while conducting an off-book investigation of him? Why is Jack showing up at Hannibal's house randomly, to tip him off that he's investigating him now but has no evidence on him/isn't arresting him? I'm not watching "Hannibal" for legalistic realism, the investigation can be kind of weird and screwy, it just peeves me that Jack and Alana would be so blasé about Beverly's death that it wouldn't change their behavior or presumptions at all. So, my wish for the future is, I think it would be amazing if Alana were to go to her gyno to get birth control now that she and Hannibal are sort of together, and the screening blood test turned up Haldol or something...not that I think that's going to happen, it just would be fun for something utterly mundane like that to drop the scales from Alana's eyes. And I also hope that we get to see Bella some more, even if it's just to watch her die, because Jack is just on my very last nerve, and I need to see them together (and him respecting her! and not taking Hannibal's side when Hannibal is horrible to her!) so that he's humanized to me again.
posted by rue72 at 1:20 AM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Gideon is annoying. But how should he react once he realizes Hannibal has a leg up on him?
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:30 AM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

This show is too good for network TV. Of course, Twin Peaks was on network TV. Maybe the best network show since Twin Peaks?

rue72: Did anyone other than Will know that Beverly went to investigate Hannibal?
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:32 AM on April 5, 2014

Oh, oh. I've got it. She goes to her gyno, and she's carrying Rosemary's Baby. With horns and stuff.
posted by professor plum with a rope at 3:33 AM on April 5, 2014

Antlers, surely.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:56 AM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

From the AV club walkthrough:

BF: Yes. It just seemed like it was going to be perfect, because if Hannibal takes her and does all of the stuff that he does to Clarice at the end of the book Hannibal, sort of brain-washing her, seducing her, and manipulating her, it felt like that was a great opportunity for us to do our spin on that story.

DID I FUCKING CALL IT OR WHAT
posted by localroger at 7:44 AM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

I still cannot get over Chilton's bitchy fuck the world attitude " whatever this is." "I will NOT be eating the food."

HE FINALLY NOTICED ALL THE CANNIBAL PUNS . PUNS SHALL BE HANNIBAL'S UNDOING
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 AM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh, and by the way, is anyone going to let Will out of prison? Or are they just going to absentmindedly forget about that
posted by tel3path at 9:57 AM on April 5, 2014

We know from the preview that Will is just going to be let put of prison. HE GETS HIS DOGS BACK. EEEEEEEEEEEEE.
posted by sparkletone at 9:58 AM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well you wouldn't want to trust Will's dogs to HanniBloom, would you?
posted by localroger at 10:04 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

I love all the answers in this week's walk through. Especially that Miriam is getting the Clarice brainwashing stuff so our real Clarice gets to be a complete hero. But at the same time I'm legit mad with VanDerWerff for not asking about the parallels between Gideon eating his own leg and the way Krendler goes out in Hannibal the book/movie.
posted by sparkletone at 11:04 AM on April 5, 2014

And do you know what? Now that Will's been exonerated, Alana is STILL going to think he's a killer! And a manipulator! And a psychopath! And someone she used to think was a pathetic broken crazy person in need of her pity but not any more!

You know? ALANA IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE HER OPINION OF WILL WHATSOEVER. Just watch!

And I thought it was really great how, in this episode, she says to Jack, "Oh I'm tired of thinking! Math is hard! He said, she said, how can I be expected to figure all this out I'm only an FBI agent and a forensic psychiatrist, it's not MY responsibility!"

Oh, Alana, you're so smart and so caring. Thank FUCK Will is getting his dogs back next week.

At least I hope he is. Did anybody notice that not all of the pack were visible? I bet you she just forgot some of them. "Math is hard! How can I be expected to keep track of all these dogs!"
posted by tel3path at 11:07 AM on April 5, 2014

BTW - did I call it about, if Hannibal hasn't been drugging/hypnotizing/brainwashing Alana, he'll definitely be doing so now? I called it! I did!

Did I call it about Chilton's cane being the thing that kills Abel Gideon? I called it! I did! (I mean at least it's the precipitating event.) And you could say Chilton and Gideon are brothers of sorts - brothers in PERIL, that is.

Gideon is so convoluted. He's on his own campaign to expose Chilton for the psychic-driving bastard that he is.

Chilton had a moment of making me think he wasn't the worst human being in the world, and then, nope.

And Whelk, yes, I think you're right. I think he wants to drive Jack crazy at the very least, and flaunt a "neener you can't catch me!" attitude at him.

And Alana's scarf in the flash forward totally looks like Hannibal's murder tie, you guys. Imagine what he'll make her do. Then imagine what he'll make her do OUTSIDE the bedroom.

I don't want to rain on certain people's parade (sorry dogheart, avert your eyes) but I really get the impression he had the blandest sex ever with Alana.
posted by tel3path at 11:12 AM on April 5, 2014

From what I've been reading, chances are very good that Hannibal will not be back next season.

In the past, Jericho fans sent nuts, and Roswell fans sent Tabasco sauce to the studio as a plea to keep these shows on the air.

I don't want to think about what Hannibal fans will send. But I'm anxious enough to go along with whatever the plan is.
posted by bibliowench at 11:38 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'll tell you something good about Gideon. He is the only one to point out that it's a bit bad that the BHSCI hired a serial killer and would have let him go on being Will's orderly if Will hadn't done something. "And you all blame Will Graham!"

Yeah.
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

From what I've been reading, chances are very good that Hannibal will not be back next season.

What? What have you been reading? Two things:

1) Hannibal's ratings got a pretty good bump last week. Hitting their first season high more or less. Initial numbers on this week are down from that, but not out of line with the rest of the season. It's always been a low-rated show and is now in a time slot where no one should have high expectations of it. It always gets a bump from hulu viewings and stuff, the question is merely the size of the bump (the last one was pretty great).

2) The show is a big hit in a lot of other markets and the financing of the show is such that it's not very expensive for NBC to pick it up. In fact, Fuller's said last year when the show seemed on the bubble with NBC, he was getting calls from other networks saying "If NBC doesn't pick you up, call us."

I'm not saying this show is a sure thing going forward of course, but I don't know why you think it's in the same situation as Jericho or Roswell. It's a critical darling in a way those shows never ever were, and the money stuff is set up kind of unusually.
posted by sparkletone at 12:04 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'll tell you something good about Gideon. He is the only one to point out that it's a bit bad that the BHSCI hired a serial killer and would have let him go on being Will's orderly if Will hadn't done something. "And you all blame Will Graham!"

Gideon's such a fucking troll, but him pointing this out was delicious.
posted by sparkletone at 12:05 PM on April 5, 2014

I have to admit I rather like this version of Chilton. In the books he's just kind of stupid and venal, an amateur fumbling about with people everyone knows are smarter than him. That Chilton would never have enough awareness to make the "I won't be eating the food" crack. This Chilton is smarter but downright evil, and IMO a more worthy foil for the other characters.
posted by localroger at 12:10 PM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

Chilton is wonderful. Gideon is wonderful. Jack Crawford is in fact bedrock. Will Graham no longer has any fucks to give. Everything was glorious.

And tel3path, I don't entirely agree with you-- this total bastard has three separate motivations for everything he does, and I'm just not rational on the subject of Alana, but my friend, allow me to assure you: There is nothing you can do to harsh my squee.

(I mean I'm not a total idiot. I was all "oh DAMN son :D" when Hannibal straight-up threatened Alana at Will, and what a well-constructed alibi that was, well-played, you total monster. But then that's kind of a large part of why I like it.)
posted by dogheart at 12:49 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

There is a fan campaign to send ears to NBC. Not real ones though.

You know when Alana comes down in Hannibal"s white shirt to tell Jack she's his alibi?

IT LOOKS LIKE SHE'S IN A STRAITJACKET

Do you think Jack's opinion of Hannibal will stay suspicious? Do you think he'll continue to regard Will as a nut job? I'm thinking maybe not because he read the "bloom" crime scene uncharacteristically perfectly, which means he is being influenced by Will's thinking and is coming into agreement with him. And let's face it he can't look at that scene and not think that it's Hannibal's style.
posted by tel3path at 12:49 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

Don't forget we started the season with a preview of Jack and Hannibal going full Battle Royale. I'd guess that's a clue that he's going to figure it out and Hannibal will figure out that he's figured it out.
posted by localroger at 1:06 PM on April 5, 2014

Yeah I wonder if he'll completely flip from believing Hannibal to believing Will.

No matter what the evidence.

Or rather, the evidence doesn't actually exonerate Hannibal, he just has a weak Alanabi.

OMG he is totally going to give Miriam lass hypnosis cues through the glass.

I guessed right, I so totally guessed right. Betcha she's been his murder assistant all this time.
posted by tel3path at 1:12 PM on April 5, 2014

I have even odds on brain washed murder assistant or in a coma for five years where the hell is my arm?

God every time Alana opened her mouth this episode I kept thinking "do you know how you sound? Are you aware of the words and sounds you're making?" Once again I feel the need to angrily clarify that when I said Alana is gonna wind up in an insitution after this I WAS JOKING, SHOW, STOP MAKING ALL MY WORSE POSSIBLE OUTCOMES HAPPEN.*

*Im lying never stop.
posted by The Whelk at 1:23 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ugh, other people are finally suspicious of Hannibal and noticing puns and such, and Alana decides to double-down on her support for him. If she makes it through alive, she's going to have some kind of major meltdown when it all comes out.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:27 PM on April 5, 2014

You were joking? I honestly thought and think she will end up hospitalized for a decent length of time. I don't believe she has anything like the strength of Bedelia, Will, or Abigail and she is going to be tortured at least as badly as they were, albeit for a shorter period of time.

I really get the impression that she's never been tested or had to wander through the desert or any of that. It looks to me like she's always been the prettiest princess and the worst thing that ever happened to her was her hamster died. Of course, she may have a tragic backstory but I'm not seeing anything so far to suggest it.
posted by tel3path at 1:30 PM on April 5, 2014

rue72: Did anyone other than Will know that Beverly went to investigate Hannibal?

I don't think that anybody else knows that she was literally going through his house looking for evidence, but Jack knew from the first that she was going to Will for help with the investigations, and she told Jack herself that she thought he should at least be listening to Will (not necessarily believing him, but at least checking out what he's saying. This was while Will was telling everyone that Hannibal was the Ripper, up through her death. So I don't think it's exactly a leap to think she was investigating Will's claims against Hannibal, and Jack certainly had enough reason to *ask* Will, "was Beverly investigating your accusations against Hannibal?" Even if he weren't to take Will's word as the gospel, it would have been at least as useful and credible as Gideon's or maybe Chilton's, I would think. Basically, everyone knows Will and Beverly was working together, and that what Will is working on (still!) is stopping Hannibal, so wouldn't everyone think that, at least probably, Beverly was working on investigating Hannibal, too?

Oh, oh. I've got it. She goes to her gyno, and she's carrying Rosemary's Baby. With horns and stuff.

It would be so terrible if Alana did get pregnant with Hannibal's baby. Can you imagine how hard she would be trying to keep from seeing or knowing anything if that were the case? I actually wish they would go that route, though I know they can't really (because babies are hope and these people are hopeless).

And I thought it was really great how, in this episode, she says to Jack, "Oh I'm tired of thinking! Math is hard! He said, she said, how can I be expected to figure all this out I'm only an FBI agent and a forensic psychiatrist, it's not MY responsibility!"

I have this dislike for Alana and it's honestly pretty unwarranted. I know exactly when it started, though -- that scene when Abigail is still in a coma, and Alana comes to visit her at the hospital and also finds Will passed out in the chair next to Abigail's bed. Alana takes off her shoes to tiptoe around, and drapes one of the gross hospital blankets on Will, and then she sits on Abigail's bed and starts reading aloud. Something about it just rubbed me so much the wrong way -- I guess that she would take off her shoes to be quiet and then sit there reading aloud and not being quiet? Everything she does seems to me like this meaningless gesture, and then she acts like the other person/people involved should reward her for making the gesture, as though the gesture is worth anything at all on its own. And it ends up being manipulative, too -- I don't think that she's trying to be manipulative, but she's always setting up the scene so that she's doing "everything right," and so the other person has to follow her lead or look like an asshole or be an asshole (to her). But like I said, that's probably a really uncharitable reading of Alana, she just tends to get under my skin.

Ugh, other people are finally suspicious of Hannibal and noticing puns and such, and Alana decides to double-down on her support for him. If she makes it through alive, she's going to have some kind of major meltdown when it all comes out.

No she won't, she'll have a little freak out and cry everywhere, make grand but meaningless gestures of support for whoever happens to be in her vicinity, and then do whatever is easiest.
posted by rue72 at 1:31 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

She might get shot three times through the chest, like the grandmother in AGMIHTF.

She might try to shoot Hannibal while he guts Will, as in the Hobbs house, but she might turn out to be the one that can't pull the trigger this time.
posted by tel3path at 1:32 PM on April 5, 2014

I was only kind of joking. Like my suspicion that she's having her head fucked with chemically on the regular is increasing tenfold
posted by The Whelk at 1:36 PM on April 5, 2014

And rue72, I think you've done a good job of explaining why I don't like Alana.

She talks about analyzing her FEELINGS and being so tired of analyzing her FEELINGS. She is most effective when she bothers to analyze the facts, but she was never going to do that as long as it meant examining her relationship with Hannibal.

So this week she finally admits she despises Will. I had always known she would do that. That she would not just do Hannibal, but explicitly stab Will in the back in the process, and explicitly refuse to think about reality in order to be able to do so.

Will's dogs - she enjoys them. She's in it for the fun parts. In order to keep her around, will has to snivel and sob and tell her he's broken and needs her help to know who he is. He has to do this because he senses that she wants this. How can he feel anything but disgust for her, after dancing like a monkey for her in this way? The self-disgust he'd feel every time he thought of it would be bad enough.

I'm done with Alana, so done.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 PM on April 5, 2014

Well we know she is now. I believe (I am open to finding out otherwise) that she jumped wilfully, willingly into that straitjacket, that she went, "screw it, I don't care about anyone but myself, let the vampire in."

I think that up till then she (probably) had her freedom but has now chucked it away altogether. A funeral for Will (volition, personal choice, self-determination). He started actually drugging her as soon as she signed her consent form.

It's time for your Soma, Dr Bloom.
posted by tel3path at 1:46 PM on April 5, 2014

It's like, at first, she is sitting with Winston and Jack in Will's house and fantasizing that he'll be back there soon. Free, but still a murderer of course, so she could keep looking down on him. As if her automatism defense had a hope in hell of getting him out instead of keeping him in the loony bin. No, things were going to go back to the way they were before!

Now she doesn't like all this pesky legal business and people getting murdered and stuff, and will has done something that gives her the excuse she needed to write him off. She knew Hannibal before any of them, you know! She's going to make things go back to the way they were before,

And she's not even arguing anything except that she and Hannibal go back a long way and she's for him right or wrong. This in an episode where even CHILTON is saying "it would be narrow not to even consider it".
posted by tel3path at 1:54 PM on April 5, 2014

Also, we were so busy going HEY IT'S MIRIAM (and yes she's minus a forearm) that I at least forgot that the previous scene was Jack getting the news about the not-people from the dinner party, but then being shown the fishing lures like the ones Will allegedly made but from all the other victims, and the light dawns as he obviously decides then and there that Will is innocent and all those murders were all the Ripper all along -- no copycat, no Will. And Will has already told him that at least one of those murders had to be either him or Hannibal...
posted by localroger at 1:57 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Mind you. I can't say her gesture of taking in will's dogs is meaningless, nor that her spotting and insisting on the diagnosis of encephalitis is meaningless. She was literally the one keeping Will and the dogs alive, because of those gestures.

The rest of her attitude and behaviours are disappointing though. Especially in contrast.
posted by tel3path at 1:58 PM on April 5, 2014

He might still think will is delusional though.

But basically I think he's coming around.
posted by tel3path at 1:59 PM on April 5, 2014

You know watching him cut Miriam loose and take up with Alana is like watching a narcissist switch girlfriends.
posted by tel3path at 2:01 PM on April 5, 2014

I'm really glad we have Miriam, because I am ready for women to have more roles in the show again (we miss you Bedelia and Beverly).

Also, that episode rivalled the meat wings for horrifying imagery.

(I still don't get how Hannibal knew to serve not-people at this dinner party.)
posted by jeather at 2:02 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

He heard Zeller say "stool sample". He also knew will was on to him so decided to lay off and also the fucking with Jack has begun.

How many hearts through the meat grinder this week? Did anyone count.
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on April 5, 2014

I wouldn't be so sure he's cut Miriam loose. The fact that Hannibal is playing his harpsichord to score Miriam's discovery would suggest this is Hannibal's design, and there's no telling at this point what Miraim's role is supposed to be, only that Hannibal thinks it will serve his purposes.
posted by localroger at 2:06 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Five bucks says he's got her brainwashed to say some totally other different dude who is so not Hannibal did all the Ripper killings and kept her in the well. Two birds, one stone. He clears his own name, and he also clears Will and gets him outside where he's more vulnerable.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:12 PM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

YOU LITTLE SHIT HANNIBAL

Sitting there playing the Bach Toccata and Fugue on your stupid pipe organ

Shithead.

Other than that I'm not even going to bother pointing out what a shit Hannibal is this episode. IT IS THE KIND OF THING I EXPECT PEOPLE, CERTAIN PEOPLE, TO NOTICE FOR THEMSELVES AT THIS POINT
posted by tel3path at 2:12 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hahaha

Will's not gonna be the one who's more vulnerable hanni
posted by tel3path at 2:13 PM on April 5, 2014

(Also you don't get more vulnerable than it gets inside the BSHCI.)
posted by tel3path at 2:14 PM on April 5, 2014

MAY WILL'S DOGS BITE YOUR BUM, HANNIBAL

MAY HIS DOGS BITE YOUR BUM
posted by tel3path at 2:14 PM on April 5, 2014

I still can't figure out if I would have clued in, but I generally think I would not have.

I would absolutely have been making cannibal rhymes with Hannibal jokes all the time, though.
posted by jeather at 2:14 PM on April 5, 2014

I'm done with Alana, so done.

I'm sure this is Hannibal's intention. This entire episode really boils down to Hannibal moving chesspieces around. He misses Will and realizes the encephalitis / frame-up gambit didn't work, so he's making a new move. Don't forget he knows Beverly was close enough to risk extralegal means of checking him out.

He's made Jack look silly for testing his food (instead of eating over $100 worth of the world's finest beef), he's ensnared Alana, he's left enough evidence to exonerate Will, and he's lured Jack to Miriam to bring her into the picture. Hannibal obviously has some plan for what happens next.
posted by localroger at 2:14 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

There are definite things Alana should have questioned long ago but I'm not gonna rehash them again.

She has certainly not been asking questions she should have asked. She does not question Hannibal or her relationship with Hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 2:16 PM on April 5, 2014

Also I predict that we will spend at least the next episode, and maybe the next few episodes, watching in horror as Hannibal's plan unfolds with the precision of a well designed Rube Goldberg machine while we shout NOOOOOOOOO at the TV set.
posted by localroger at 2:19 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

Miram: Matt Brown, Dr. Gideon and several other unknown men where all part of an art murder collective called The Chesapeake Ripper. I was kidnapped by them during my investigation and forced to help when I wasn't under sedation or forced to consume hallugenics. Here are some details of crimes you haven't made public. They planned to frame both Will Graham and Dr. Alecter for the murders so they could escape and mock the FBI from a distance. When they began to turn on each other, I was planted in the safe house.

Hannibal: My word! What an unexpected solution that solves everything and outs this whole mess behind us! Thank you Ms Lass.

Miriam: *BLINKS OUT CAANIBAL IN MORSE CODE*
posted by The Whelk at 2:25 PM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

So three characters meet terrible terrible fates. That's not necessarily death.

Bella, Beverly, and Gideon have had, or continue to have, rather a bad time of it.

He used none of his usual brutality when killing Bev.
posted by tel3path at 2:27 PM on April 5, 2014

And the whole OMG I feel so betrayed I thought we were friends, will.

Dish it out but can't take it. Typical.
posted by tel3path at 2:28 PM on April 5, 2014

Mind you. I can't say her gesture of taking in will's dogs is meaningless, nor that her spotting and insisting on the diagnosis of encephalitis is meaningless. She was literally the one keeping Will and the dogs alive, because of those gestures.

To me, that stuff is a day late and a dollar short. Great of her to take care of the dogs when the real problem was that Will was in a nightmare hospital getting railroaded for five murders. With the kind of money these people throw around, the dogs could surely have stayed in a kennel and Alana could have spent her time shoring up that "automaton" defense or done anything at all helpful in terms of actually getting Will out, instead of just doing the bare minimum to make herself look like the good guy while he was stuck in hell.

Also, fantastic to say, finally, that maybe something was neurologically wrong with the person who she, a medical doctor, *said herself* had suddenly become unstable. Back when it would have actually mattered and this pretty much normal and not especially violent guy was driving holes into his house and telling her he was hearing things and that some hallucinatory animal needed help, maybe she could have "analyzed" it at all and not turned everything into conversations about whether they should make out. Again, I think, she twisted things around so she'd look as good as possible (I've noticed you're hurting but, oooh please no more romantic overtures *giggle*) while Will was being driven insane.

It's not that anything Alana was doing was bad, it's just that everything she was doing was so far beside the point that it's a (shitty) joke. And in general it wouldn't be fair to think that she had to be someone else's support system, but she was also literally hired as a consultant (by Jack) in order to do that job. I think her behavior is also messed up on just an ethical level -- would she have expected Will to treat her like that, if she'd gotten sick or been accused of horrible things? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Do you think Jack's opinion of Hannibal will stay suspicious? Do you think he'll continue to regard Will as a nut job? I'm thinking maybe not because he read the "bloom" crime scene uncharacteristically perfectly, which means he is being influenced by Will's thinking and is coming into agreement with him. And let's face it he can't look at that scene and not think that it's Hannibal's style.

Jack just likes being in charge, and if he thinks Hannibal isn't on his cock anymore and is doing his own thing, he'll try to force him back in line. Throw his weight around, put the scare into him, whatever (I think that's why he called Hannibal out by going to his house to "question" him). If he realizes that Hannibal is actively making a fool of him (which is what I think will happen if he ties Hannibal to Mariam Lass, because he thinks of Mariam Lass as "his"), he'll go on the attack. I thought Will was smart to tell Jack that they'd probably been eating their own victims for dinner at Hannibal's house, because I think that the worst thing you can do to Jack is make a fool out of him.

But I don't think even if Jack turns against Hannibal, that'll necessarily do much in terms of Jack's regard for Will, because I think that their problem is just that Jack always wants to be the leader and Will isn't very good at being a follower. Jack's been trying to "fix" that from the beginning and get Will "with the program," when he had Hannibal and Alana both on staff as Will's "minders" and was always yelling in Will's face. But I think that Will is over even pretending to play that "bow and scrape" game at this point, which isn't going to endear him to Jack really ever.

Also I predict that we will spend at least the next episode, and maybe the next few episodes, watching in horror as Hannibal's plan unfolds with the precision of a well designed Rube Goldberg machine while we shout NOOOOOOOOO at the TV set.

I agree, and I wonder what Hannibal's plan is. It's surely to discredit Jack, at least in the short term. I'm not sure how giving Mariam Lass to Jack will help with that. He'll probably coincide Jack being able to make real allegations against him with Bella's death, so that he'll be able to say that Jack is just raving with grief.
posted by rue72 at 2:31 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

You people have convinced me to give this show another try.

I hope you're proud of yourselves.
posted by daisyk at 2:35 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think her behavior is also messed up on just an ethical level

Well, look at who her teacher/mentor was.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:35 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah! We as a collective rejoice at WHAT YOU ARE BECOMING, daisyk.
posted by tel3path at 2:38 PM on April 5, 2014 [5 favorites]

I loved the look Gideon gives when Hannibal pulls his mask down. Just such a "well, I can see I'm fucked. Here we go."
posted by rmd1023 at 2:40 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

It was fair for Alana not to question will's health at the point when they made out because he was not her patient, and he was already receiving treatment from Hannibal. It would have been unethical? Or at least inappropriate for her to stick her oar in.
posted by tel3path at 2:42 PM on April 5, 2014

There's a reason why Hannibal has such "high regard" for Alana, and it isn't because she's a superior human being. Though she has the ability to look like one.
posted by tel3path at 2:46 PM on April 5, 2014

I'm tempted to say "throw Alana some people-sausage and she'll follow him anywhere" but that would just be crude, so...

Sorry I'm not fluent enough in doublespeak yet to buy a newspaper at the BSHCI
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on April 5, 2014

I'm tempted to say "throw Alana some people-sausage and she'll follow him anywhere" but that would just be crude

The people sausage in his pants!

EAT THE CRUDE.
posted by crossoverman at 2:49 PM on April 5, 2014

Guys ...breaking open the clay is like breaking open a mask.
posted by The Whelk at 2:51 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Alana: So Hannibal, are you making more people sausage or are you just glad to see me?
posted by localroger at 2:51 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

So I don't understand:

1. Gideon clearly deliberately goads the orderlies into attacking him. Why?
2. Hannibal knows he'll find Gideon in the hospital that night. How?

Did I miss something? Was there some "get me out of here" / "okay I'll get you out of here" subtext to their staged-for-Chilton "nope never met YOU before" conversation?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:52 PM on April 5, 2014

*Clip of Hannibal composing his tune set to REM's "Everybody Hurts"

or maybe Baby Comes Back.*
posted by The Whelk at 2:55 PM on April 5, 2014

He could only know that sort of thing through Chilton, and I think Chilton's cane strikes Abel. (Geddit)

Don't forget, Hannibal winked at Chilton earlier, motivating chilton to get back on Hannibal's good side.

Chilton has no loyalty, he butters up whoever gives him the best deal or the biggest threat.
posted by tel3path at 2:56 PM on April 5, 2014

and of course, the double meaning of composition, and the waltz as an intimate dance for two
posted by The Whelk at 2:57 PM on April 5, 2014

One thing though, rue72, it does seem like this whole series from Alana's point of view has been a conversation about whether or not she should make out with whom.

I literally can't recall anything she's said, at any time, that doesn't boil down to just that. We'll maybe a couple of conversations with or about Abigail.
posted by tel3path at 3:16 PM on April 5, 2014

I think Chilton's cane strikes Abel.

Not sure about that . There was a brief close-up of a black telescopic baton being extended -- presumably by one of the orderlies -- shortly before Gideon was attacked.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:20 PM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

I also think that Alana had always thought will was unstable, that she thought it's who he is rather than situational, and yes she did notice that he was hallucinating and the only excuse for ignoring that in a man in his mid thirties! is if you think he's already getting care, which she did. But also she thinks he's just like this and is getting worse because of the fieldwork, not because some physical disorder has temporarily alighted on him.

I am not qualified to know if it's excusable for a psychiatrist to see that and say or not say anything to the doctor who is in charge, but that's what she thinks.

To me, that's almost worse because it tells me she always thought he was crazy whether or not she ever had any real reason to think so, and when she sees him deteriorating he's only confirming her opinion of him (and her opinion that Jack shouldn't have put him out in the field). Like everyone always knew he would end up this way. She'll see to it that he doesn't get killed, but she won't actually respect him. Come to think of it, *aren't* shrinks supposed to respect crazy people, even those that aren't their patients? You know, in theory. When you come across one who doesn't...
posted by tel3path at 3:25 PM on April 5, 2014

I mean look how she resolves this issue: shut up Jack, I've decided to make out with Hannibal and that's that!!!
posted by tel3path at 3:28 PM on April 5, 2014

I'm beginning to feel like I've been watching the show wrong since I really like Alana and am struggling to see her in such a light. Although I anticipate a bad ending for her - suicide, prolonged hospitalization, dinner table, I am apparently identifying a little too closely to her or something. Going to leave a swoony Alana gifset here and go watch Winter Soldier.
posted by PussKillian at 3:53 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

*Clip of Hannibal composing his tune set to REM's "Everybody Hurts"

First season was this. Second season, it's this this.
posted by sparkletone at 3:54 PM on April 5, 2014

... is anyone else kinda bothered by the fact that, as far as we saw, Will didn't do anything to try and find Winston's people?

Maybe this is really a show about a cannibal bringing a dognapper to justice.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:02 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

I did like alana but my opinion of her has gotten worse and worse, and today's episode just confirms every bad thing I ever thought about her.
posted by tel3path at 4:03 PM on April 5, 2014

Maybe I'm biased because i'm a cat person and cats choose their own homes - if a cat decides to move in with us, it's not generally our policy to stop them.

But winston was showing signs of neglect when will picked him up - there is reasonable assurance that Winston is better off where he is now.

Also, Winston insists on going home to Will at every opportunity. He didn't do that with whoever had him before Will.
posted by tel3path at 4:05 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

... is anyone else kinda bothered by the fact that, as far as we saw, Will didn't do anything to try and find Winston's people?

He wasn't wearing a collar or anything that I can recall. I assume a good faith effort was made off screen because that kind of thing doesn't really matter to the story we're being told.
posted by sparkletone at 4:09 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

He had a rope around his neck.
posted by tel3path at 4:10 PM on April 5, 2014

I (Still) Believe in Alana Bloom.

But I love you all, and appropriately enough, my wish to defend her comes from a place of emotion and not logic. So I'm just not going to.

Y'all still can't harsh my squee.
posted by dogheart at 4:26 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm beginning to feel like I've been watching the show wrong since I really like Alana and am struggling to see her in such a light.

I don't think anyone is watching the show wrong. Alana rubs me the wrong way, but I don't think that means she's awful or that other people can't like her. I also wanted to be upfront that she rubs me the wrong way because it probably does color my perception of her actions.

... is anyone else kinda bothered by the fact that, as far as we saw, Will didn't do anything to try and find Winston's people?

You're right, the guy is basically a detective, he could have done at least a bit of detecting! I want to see him do the "reenactment" thing to figure out how Winston ended up alone on the road. WEBISODE PLZ.

To me, that's almost worse because it tells me she always thought he was crazy whether or not she ever had any real reason to think so, and when she sees him deteriorating he's only confirming her opinion of him (and her opinion that Jack shouldn't have put him out in the field). Like everyone always knew he would end up this way. She'll see to it that he doesn't get killed, but she won't actually respect him. Come to think of it, *aren't* shrinks supposed to respect crazy people, even those that aren't their patients? You know, in theory. When you come across one who doesn't...

It's not so much that I think she should have been pushing him into the car to go to the emergency room, my issue is that it would have been nice if Alana had tried to help her "friend" with his *actual* problem of being on the edge of a psychotic break rather than twisting things into an assessment/test of his suitability as a boyfriend. And then she went back the next day to tell him the results of the boyfriend assessment (failed) and what he could do to improve/change the results next go around, as though that's naturally where the focus should be. She didn't seem to me to be worried about overstepping and not saying anything to him out of respect, etc, it seemed more like she was just thinking of him in terms of what he could/couldn't do for her and where he fit into her life. That's not wrong exactly, Will's life is his own responsibility, but it bothers me that she would see someone in trouble and think primarily about how much less desirable that trouble makes him to her.

And makes it more bitter that once Will was actually arrested and in his orange jumpsuit, it took her approximately one and a half minutes to ask him about his symptoms/treatment, have him do the clock test for her, and correctly diagnose him.

Chilton has no loyalty, he butters up whoever gives him the best deal or the biggest threat.

I think that all Chilton has going for him is that he's smart enough to be scared.
posted by rue72 at 4:33 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Dogheart noooo! The evidence the evidence, you can't just BELIEVE IN someone just because they have a really nice face!

I forbid it. We have standards to uphold and

[rants self out of existence at the thought of someone else having a non-evidence-based good time]
posted by tel3path at 4:35 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Hannivan
posted by tel3path at 4:35 PM on April 5, 2014

You guys, I have a burning question. How the heck does Hannibal transport his fancy death tableaux? I mean, that tree was pretty big. And those blossoms are the kind that fall off at the slightest jostling. Does he have an unmarked white van tucked away somewhere?

Yeah, I was thinking about that, and how the cherry blossoms are only just starting this week, so he would have had to force a tree to blossom out of season or bought a super expensive forced tree in order to do that tableaux. You'd think searching out his florist would be a good place to start gathering evidence on him!

But I just figure that the logic in this show is dream/nightmare-logic, so the investigation will follow dream/nightmare-logic, too (rather than boring things like interviewing florists or pulling Hannibal's bank records).
posted by rue72 at 4:37 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

You guys, I have a burning question.

Every time you start thinking along these lines, stop and say, "MURDER WIZARD," to yourself three times before doing something better with your time.
posted by sparkletone at 4:41 PM on April 5, 2014 [9 favorites]

Will is in a universe where even those who don't actively wish him ill are no help to him. Doctors maim and kill, jailers set murderers to guard him, justice is blind and mindless and heartless, (though i will say that leonard braver cares about saving will's life above all else except getting a paycheck for doing so and he goes for it with all his might and main, which makes him the first ever character to do anything of the kind). The detectives don't detect, and the friends are, just, no help really (until Bev, another exception).
posted by tel3path at 4:42 PM on April 5, 2014

That, or he had an assistant.
posted by tel3path at 4:43 PM on April 5, 2014

Every time you start thinking along these lines, stop and say, "MURDER WIZARD," to yourself three times before doing something better with your time.

Will just needs to level up quick and get Mana Clash.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:48 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wow, some harsh opinions about Alana. I just think she has a blind spot for people close to her. BTW I really like how Caroline Dhavernas plays her.
posted by Pendragon at 4:58 PM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

Well part of the problem is that all of them are crossing professional lines and getting all up in the business of people who are personally close to them. This is intentional i think, not just small cast syndrome. Personal relationships make it impossible for anyone to be objective, even Jack's wife is being treated by hannibal.
posted by tel3path at 5:06 PM on April 5, 2014

Anyway. SPECULATIONS ABOUT MIRIAM PLZ.

I say she has been his brainwashed Igor assistant, because it is hard to transport elaborate murder tableaux without an assistant.
posted by tel3path at 5:22 PM on April 5, 2014

I literally can't recall anything she's said, at any time, that doesn't boil down to just that. We'll maybe a couple of conversations with or about Abigail.

This is a weird way to read her interactions with basically anyone but Will in S1. Her conversations with Will were about make outs because they're attracted to each other. Her interactions with Jack and Hannibal were (mostly) about protecting Will from the price he pays psychologically for doing what he does, or Abigail.

Reducing that the way you have is really strange to me and I think speaks to that bias you mentioned regarding Alana.
posted by sparkletone at 5:26 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

I say she has been his brainwashed Igor assistant, because it is hard to transport elaborate murder tableaux without an assistant.

Attempted to brainwash her into being his Murder Sister ala Hannibal the book/movie, but then Jack started getting all uppity so she lost an arm. Then he was so rude as to leave quickly from a party being thrown for him! So now he gets to deal with what's left of her after being in a hole in the ground for two years.
posted by sparkletone at 5:27 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

There were two wells in his murder shack. Does he have another supposedly-dead-but-we-never-saw-a-body surprise waiting in the wings? And did Bev see Miriam in Hannibal's basement (which means he transported her to the murder shack), or SOMETHING ELSE?
posted by lovecrafty at 5:36 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah, maybe. I'm not saying that that's what she's talked about, but i think that all her decision-making ultimately boils down to that, and nothing that she's said makes me think otherwise.

Similarly, Jack's ruling characteristic is mercilessness, which also brings out some humility in him that has made him more sympathetic, but his motivations basically boil down to who's the boss. Since ignoring Will and kissing up to Hannibal is disrupting jack's ability to be the boss because Will has taken the law into his own hands, that's why jack suddenly acquires the ability to question his relationship with hannibal. He's actually getting led around by the nose without being aware of it.

At least the science bros are doing their jobs as specified.
posted by tel3path at 5:41 PM on April 5, 2014

And I bet Hannibal's Murder Sister is good at her job!
posted by tel3path at 5:44 PM on April 5, 2014

Lures, Jack, lures. I see you've exhausted your Symbolism Analysis Quotient for one episode, which is why you went to the site alone with seemingly no backup in the dead of night.

Well done on the flowers though!
posted by tel3path at 5:47 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Turns out Hannibal has like, a small workhouse of helpful Brainwashed Murder Elves.
posted by The Whelk at 5:47 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

(that or they're art student interns working for a famously mysterious avant grade installation artist.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:48 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yes, they're called the BAU.
posted by tel3path at 5:48 PM on April 5, 2014

Hannibal's Ompah Loompahs even.
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 PM on April 5, 2014

Turns out Hannibal has like, a small workhouse of helpful Brainwashed Murder Elves.

That workhouse must be where he flash-froze Bev. Who outside of a frozen food company like Marie Callender or Healthy Choice even has equipment like that. OMG JUST THOUGHT OF THE MOST DISGUSTING IDEA.

And did Bev see Miriam in Hannibal's basement (which means he transported her to the murder shack), or SOMETHING ELSE?

Well, I've been itchy about Bedelia, because one of the last things Hannibal said to her was "you've tried to leave before" (that's from memory, the quote might be slightly off), and she took her sweet time saying goodbye to anyone and everyone before she "cut off all social ties."

Wow, some harsh opinions about Alana. I just think she has a blind spot for people close to her. BTW I really like how Caroline Dhavernas plays her.

But "people close to her" is only just Hannibal. And even he isn't trusting her to actually do or think or figure out anything, he's actually counting on her being completely useless. She's most help to him when she's unconscious.

Anyway, not to be like ALANA IS THE WORST because I don't think she is. She just seems so *superficial.* Real shit is going down and she's playing Chopsticks and making sure that Hannibal doesn't think they just had "funeral sex." I guess she just seems to me to be playing the fiddle while Rome burns.
posted by rue72 at 5:52 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

There were two wells in his murder shack. Does he have another supposedly-dead-but-we-never-saw-a-body surprise waiting in the wings?

I think the other well was for tree-man, it was filled with water.
posted by Pendragon at 5:55 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

Miriam is there to identify hannibal as Not The Ripper. That's why she's getting out now.
posted by tel3path at 6:14 PM on April 5, 2014

Bella mentioned that jack gets drug tested at work. I wondered if that might be how alana finds out but she seems to have quit the bau, so.
posted by tel3path at 6:18 PM on April 5, 2014

Dogheart noooo! The evidence the evidence, you can't just BELIEVE IN someone just because they have a really nice face!

Like =/= Trust

ANYBODY can have a nice face. You might like just ANYBODY. Just because you happen to like someone doesn't mean that he's trustworthy.

The sad thing on this show is that we're basically watching all these callow people get broken, and afterward they've got more sense but are also worse for the wear. Chilton's a good example, I think -- Gideon torturing him and nearly killing him obviously taught him some sense, at least enough to be fearful now, but he was also literally crippled by it.

So my thing about Alana is: she's still callow. I think she's probably going to get broken, and then, for better or worse, she won't be callow anymore. Going by how awful it's been seeing Chilton, Bella, Will, and (to some extent) Gideon, get broken and harden into slightly different versions of themselves, I think it's probably going to be awful watching Alana go through it, too. But it also seems inevitable?

I do think it's a bit harsh of me to come down on Alana for still being callow when she doesn't really have any reason (yet) to be otherwise. But I still feel impatient and frustrated with her for it.
posted by rue72 at 6:24 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

If Hannibal has outright brainwashed Mariam to the point that she is truly loyal to him, then I think she'll be his "eyes and ears on the inside." If he's only tormented her and hasn't turn-coated her, which I personally think is more his style -- he seems to like seeing how people will react, so he does like to give them at least some freedom to react, it's part of the game -- then I think that he's counting on knowing how to push her buttons to get her running in the ways he wants, but isn't counting on her actual loyalty to him.

That doesn't follow exactly how things went down with Clarice in the books, it sounds like? So that could be completely off, it's just my speculation based on how I think Hannibal thinks.

So I think that it's going to be more about Hannibal knowing that Mariam and her screwed-up-ness are going to mess with Jack's head and torment him, then that she's going to have some story to tell that will get Jack's investigation off his back. I think that the reason Hannibal wants to show Mariam to Jack now, is to show Jack how pathetic and powerless he is -- because look how Mariam was destroyed, and she was Jack's responsibility, so her utterly degraded state now is Jack's fault at best and something he was utterly powerless to stop at worst (or both, at the same time).

I actually wonder if Hannibal is going to manipulate Mariam into attacking Jack, so that Jack ends up having to kill Mariam ("put her down.").
posted by rue72 at 6:33 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

To me, it's as if everyone started the show out as naive and inexperienced. It is a bit weird considering the actual age and experience of most of these characters, especially considering their line of work. Alana is probably the youngest at this point, but Jack is curious to me in ways such as never even questioning what Hannibal saw in him socially and why he puts so much effort into wining and dining him. He must know that being in a position of power means he has to keep a little awareness of the reasons people might have for connecting with him.

I think Bedelia might be something of an exception - i'm not convinced she was as much callow as she was captor bonded. I also think Bella is something of an exception - she misplaced her trust but this is something that a person might do without being callow. And she has no trouble understanding what hannibal did to her, she slapped him without prevarication. She generally seems to have a very good read about the truths of her relationships with others, including the sad truths.
posted by tel3path at 6:36 PM on April 5, 2014

You're both forgetting that the only one that's figured out he's on a show called Hannibal is Will, I think. The rest will soon though!
posted by sparkletone at 7:00 PM on April 5, 2014

If he's only tormented her and hasn't turn-coated her, which I personally think is more his style -- he seems to like seeing how people will react

This is true, but Fuller pretty much came out and said on that last AV walk-thru that Miriam is Clarice after the end of Hannibal the book, and that Clarice had fallen pretty solidly under Hannibal's spell.

We don't know yet what Miriam's interim story is, but I think the way we saw her in the final scene was a great big FUCK YOU to Hannibal Book Clarice, you'll end up in the bottom of a SOTL quoting well all filthy and missing an arm, not at the opera in South America where Barney will recognize you and run for his life.

I would expect her to be pretty solidly turncoated just becuase even in the few moments we've seen her Fuller has punished her so badly.
posted by localroger at 7:26 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

She talks about analyzing her FEELINGS and being so tired of analyzing her FEELINGS. She is most effective when she bothers to analyze the facts, but she was never going to do that as long as it meant examining her relationship with Hannibal.

Going back to my experience working with a bunch of Clinical Psychology PhD-candidates; that describes a LOT of personality types. Constant examinations of their own behavior, other people's behavior ... it's seen as a good thing, that you are aware of your own motivations so you know your blindspots. Back in those days, the term "Wounded Healer" was bandied about for people in that particular line of work. It was this idea that people are drawn to that line of work because of our their own emotional pain, therefore in order to be an effective clinician you have to constantly gut-check yourself. EVERY fleeting emotion has to be examined thoroughly.

The problem with this concept is that it bumped right up against this other clinical principle: to be an effective therapist, you must believe in your patients ability to transform themselves into better people and must be able to maintain (iirc) "unconditional warm regard" towards themselves.

I saw many of my co-workers get snowed by this with a client who progressed from peeping tom to attempted rapist in within the space of a year. Many of my co-workers were convinced that he was simply mentally/emotionally stunted and believed that he was really trying to make progress. I just saw dead eyes and a mouth trying to say what he thought we wanted to hear. After law enforcement got involved, it occurred to me that maybe I didn't have it in me to be a clinical psychologist - I could not bring myself to believe that everyone was intrinsically good at the core.

Bringing this back to Alana I think, in part, she's has this particular blind spot to such a degree that it goes beyond clinical professionalism and is this security blanket she has coiled around herself - constant over examination of her own feelings/ motivations & believing in the inherent goodness of all who cross her path - to keep her own demons at bay. By indulging in navel-gazing she doesn't have to pay attention to any troubling sense of "wrongness" in the presence of others.

Remember in season one when she first met Abagail, she described her specialty as working with people who are struggling with family trauma. What did she experience in the past that drew her to that type of clinical work? What are her emotional wounds and how did she get them?
posted by echolalia67 at 11:00 PM on April 5, 2014 [6 favorites]

So wait, to zoom out for a second to see how the machinations are taking shape (this is lots and lots of (unspoiled) speculation, so please skip this if too much speculation ruins your fun!):

-- Will asks Freddie to visit in order to get a message out, and then describes the bailiff and judge's murders to her in a way that's relatively complimentary to the killer (he's not crazy, he's "different") and says he wants to "open a line of communication" with the killer. Brown is right outside the room and Will is apparently trying to communicate with Brown via his convo with Freddie. Obviously, Freddie doesn't know about that second layer of communication because how could she, so how might she come into play now?

-- When Brown answers Will's "open communication" request, Will tells Brown that he wants Hannibal dead, in a place where Gideon and Chilton will hear. That sets up Hannibal to be rescued, but Will does still give Hannibal a shot across the bow and picks off Brown. Hannibal comes by to read Will his version of the riot act, and mark the official end of their friendship. Will's bridge with Alana is also burned -- did he mean to do that? Is that going to be a problem?

-- Will tells Gideon he's there to bare witness, so via the surveillance, Gideon gives Chilton information against Hannibal and Will warns Chilton he'd better use it for his own safety. Chilton follows through with Jack. But then Gideon refuses to back up Chilton to Jack and sticks up for Will against Chilton (w/r/t Brown) and keeps on shooting his mouth off whenever possible because he's got a death wish or something (what is with that?!). In response, Chilton apparently gives the BSHCI guards the OK to give Gideon a beatdown that sends him to the hospital, and tips off Hannibal that Gideon is out of the BSHCI/where Gideon is (?). (Aside from getting rid of Gideon, which Chilton would want for obvious personal reasons, I think that Chilton's goal in tipping off Hannibal would also be to curry favor with Hannibal, now that he's sort of on the outs with Jack. Trying to cover his bases).

-- Jack follows through on Chilton's evidence and goes to Hannibal, playing the blowhard and "questioning" him. That marks the official end of Jack and Hannibal's cooperation, so Hannibal sends Jack to the next stage in the game, Mariam Lass. I think that the goal there will probably be for Jack to turn on both Mariam Lass and Bella in ways that put their blood on his hands, but I don't know how Hannibal could actually make that happen.

-- Likewise, Hannibal sends Will to the next stage of their game (because of the official end of their friendship) by planting the exonerating fishing lures and getting Will released from BSHCI. I have zero idea of what he might have in store for him? (I actually don't see Alana coming into that part of the story substantially, because Hannibal needs her for other things (ie, his cover), and because she's thrown in her lot so 100% with Hannibal).

-- Will is meanwhile setting up Hannibal to be *caught* rather than killed, I think, because fishermen catch and hunters shoot. I think he's had some kind of plan cooking while in BSHCI, though it's hard to tell because that's mostly just going by attitude, and any plan he's got has to be limited because his information was limited. Freddie got tipped off by *somebody* about Beverly's body in the observatory -- was that Hannibal? Might she end up getting caught or used in some kind of game between them? She's dangerous because she lies, but she's safe because she will so predictably investigate and print any story they tempt her with. I think that Will might be setting things up so that *Freddie* catches Hannibal in the act, and then splashes the juicy details all over her blog. Also, Will said earlier (in a dream, lol) that his "lure" is named Abigail -- on the one hand, I don't think we have enough information yet to see how he could use Abigail as a lure for Hannibal, but on the other hand, the audience has more information than Will does at this point, so if it's already part of his plan, then we must?

-- How might Chilton come into things at this point? Given that Gideon and Will are both gone from BSHCI, does he have a place in the story anymore (at least until after Hannibal is caught)?

-- No idea if Alana is even going to take action in a way that changes the direction of the story. In my mind, she's just set up to be Hannibal's cover and...whatever the opposite of a Greek Chorus is. But she could have some surprises in her, I don't know?
posted by rue72 at 2:19 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

"You're both forgetting that the only one that's figured out he's on a show called Hannibal is Will, I think. The rest will soon though"

Not forgetting at all. Chilton has figured it out by now. That makes Chilton smarter than everyone except the other 7-8 people who figured it out (those that are still living), and Hannibal himself.

If chilton is the smart one in the group, something is wrong with the group.
posted by tel3path at 4:26 AM on April 6, 2014

"Bringing this back to Alana I think, in part, she's has this particular blind spot to such a degree that it goes beyond clinical professionalism and is this security blanket she has coiled around herself - constant over examination of her own feelings/ motivations"

Yes, and if i woke up next to (who I really thought was) the hottest guy in the Western Hemisphere the first thing I would do would not be to start a conversation examining my motivations for being there.
posted by tel3path at 4:33 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Constant examinations of their own behavior, other people's behavior ... it's seen as a good thing, that you are aware of your own motivations so you know your blindspots."

And will's such an effective profiler because in general he doesn't do this. He cuts right to the chase "this killer is motivated by a need for grilled cheese sandwiches" or whatever.

He's morose about what the ability to do this might say about him (or used to be) but he doesn't hang around questioning "or am i merely projecting my own desire for a grilled cheese sandwich onto my killer?"
posted by tel3path at 4:41 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

And when I said it was like watching a narcissist switch girlfriends, what i was getting at was, I think Alana is at risk of meeting a similar fate to the one miriam lass appears to have suffered (down a well missing an arm).

But they're very different. Miriam Lass, if Clarice, is someone Hannibal was trying to convert and this is the result. We don't know what any of it means except we're told that this is the "realistic" version of Clannibal (i guess).

So actually, the switching girlfriends is really cultivating Will after failing? With Miriam. Alana is like the third girlfriend who is publicly treated as the desired one but is really there to unwittingly be used against the other two.
posted by tel3path at 4:50 AM on April 6, 2014

rue72, I think you might have a point here: Also, fantastic to say, finally, that maybe something was neurologically wrong with the person who she, a medical doctor, *said herself* had suddenly become unstable. Back when it would have actually mattered and this pretty much normal and not especially violent guy was driving holes into his house and telling her he was hearing things and that some hallucinatory animal needed help, maybe she could have "analyzed" it at all and not turned everything into conversations about whether they should make out.

I checked with a friend about this and they said that in the circumstances, Dr Bloom should have notified Dr Lecter about the serious new symptom she'd observed (hallucinations). If she then thought that Dr Lecter was ignoring these symptoms without good reason she should complain to a more senior clinician.

So it seems that at the very least she should have reported to hannibal that will was hallucinating.

Now the first thing will does after kissing alana and being rebuffed because he's "unstable" is drive to Hannibal's place and yell that he kissed alana bloom and she turned him down and that she knew he was hallucinating and they both knew she knew it.

So if alana went to hannibal about this he would say "yes i've been informed" and that would be the end of the matter. So it wouldn't have made any difference at the time if she'd done so. But we don't see her doing so. We do see her approaching Will the next day to have a conversation about how confused she is about whether or not she should be snogging him because he's so unstable. Not "and i hope you mentioned the hallucinations to hannibal because i'm going to/have already done so" and we never see her approaching hannibal about it most probably because she never did approach him about it.

The only possible excuse I can think of for alana's not reporting this to hannibal is that she doesn't recognize the hallucinations as a new symptom, which is a problem all by itself. Will knows the hallucinations are new, we know this because he says so. Alana has always thought will was "unstable" but leaving hallucinations unremarked on, as a new symptom on a man in his mid-thirties... It's like she decided long ago that he's nuts anyway so what's a few hallucinations more or less. At least that is how it looks to me.
posted by tel3path at 5:33 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Remember in season one when she first met Abagail, she described her specialty as working with people who are struggling with family trauma. What did she experience in the past that drew her to that type of clinical work? What are her emotional wounds and how did she get them?"

Her stepdad was a serial killer? And she pleaded "mom please don't date him, he's a serial killer" and was ignored?

So now she ignores herself every time she notices that someone's a serial killer because she doesn't want to be someone who sees serial killers everywhere just because her stepdad was one...

Either that or she has, in fact, always been the prettiest princess and never learned otherwise. Bedelia says "traumatized/damaged people are dangerous because they know they can survive" well, maybe Alana isn't traumatized/damaged and therefore isn't going to (psychologically) survive this, at least that is what i'm afraid will happen to her.
posted by tel3path at 5:42 AM on April 6, 2014

Jack names every one of the flowers in the "bloom" scene. I can't get to it now, but what is the symbolism of those particular flowers? They might tell us what comes next.
posted by tel3path at 6:07 AM on April 6, 2014

Fascinating conversation, it helps me to appreciate the show even more.

Here's a quick question, what's the leaf that Hannibal wraps the roast leg o' Gideon in?
posted by h00py at 6:17 AM on April 6, 2014

When Will gives his surprise interview to Freddie he doesn't know Brown killed the bailiff. He doesn't realize until two minutes before he asks him to kill Hannibal as a favor.

Will expected to have to communicate with someone on the outside; if he adapted his plan to tip off Hannibal (something I simply cannot accept) and/or to get rid of Brown he did so in the first two minutes he was aware of Brown existing. I really believe that his plan was to send the Admirer after Hannibal because he couldn't think of any other way to stop Hannibal. If he had succeeded the four or five people killed since then would still be alive.

We see the look on Will's face when Hannibal friend-breaks up with him and the latter mentions Alana: Will is upset that Hannibal still has access to people Will cares about. Hannibal could have driven home much of the same thing by saying anyone else Will knew.

I see no reason to suspect that Chilton tipped off Hannibal re: Gideon. Chilton is terrified of Hannibal at this point; he's not going to want to feed the monster. Chilton said he wants to not look like a threat to Hannibal; it seems like he's going to want to back away as carefully as possible (unless he has a chance to catch him, but, again, Chilton is a coward).

Hannibal did not reveal Miriam Lass in response to Jack questioning him, Jack leaving the dinner party with food to test or any other sleight. Hannibal had already given up Miriam Lass with the guy in a tree tableau. It just took the guys in the lab some time to analyze everything and find the bark that led them to Miriam Lass. Hannibal revealed Miriam Lass in response to nearly being killed by the orderly.

I am unsure of what Hannibal's plan is as well, why he gave up information to exonerate Will. It does seem like he respects Will more, though now they are rivals. This is one of the great things about the show, though, that even though we know where this is going it's difficult to see how we'll get there.

Yes, Hannibal tipped off Freddie about the observatory. Beverly was melting quickly and he wanted everybody to see right away.

But I don't think Will has much of a plan. He was kind of flailing and desperate, hence sending Brown to kill Hannibal, despite that being a flawed planned (on several levels). He was trapped and there was almost nothing he could do. In the week 7 teaser we see Will pointing a gun at Hannibal in the latter's home; it looks like Will remains rather desperate and maybe went looking for evidence like Beverly found, (once again) his own safety be damned. As Beverly said, Will wants to save lives (if Brown had been successful then the four dead people we see this week would still be alive and Gideon would not have just eaten his own leg (side note: we don't see Gideon as dead yet, right? I mean, he's not long for this world but, still)).

Also Chilton still wants to catch the Ripper, to bolster his reputation. He is pretty much on Will's side, so it's possible Will will try to use that (but probably not). At any rate Chilton will likely stay mixed up in everything.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:17 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hugh Dancy is higher in the credits this week than Mads Mikkelsen. That means that, despite appearances, Will probably has the upper hand at this point.
posted by tel3path at 6:22 AM on April 6, 2014

Sme totally minor tights from rewatching:

Chilton is such a priss and I love it. his reaction to the dinner party is less "oh no its peeeeeople!" and more "oh god I can't BELIVE they expect me to eat THIS." I love that this is his version of ighterous anger.

Plus you know he loves the cane as a conversation prop. I think he's barely repressing the urge to tap people with it. it only know occurred to me what archetype he's playing, a smug southern dandy who isn't nearly as smart or chic as he thinks he is. All his 40s era affectations and all.

Hannibal's living room is more formal than his dining room but also a lot less personal. the marble floors recall Venetian palazzos but also the first floor of institutional buildings like churches or banks. The gold interlocking wallpaper with black wainscoting brings to find English 1880s decadence and Imperial China, along with an Austrian looking harpsichord and Dutch cabin ate that we don't get a god look at ipI bet you a wunderkammer, a place for showing off curosities or treasures, the kind of thing a proper Dutch merchant would have to showcase how well educated and traveled he is to have trinkets and wonders from around the world.

Which is how the whole room feels really, one huge display case. The lighting and colors scheme makes it feel like the inside of a jewelry box, but a few stag heads and skills aside, it feels less like an expression of Actual Cannibal Doctor Lecter ( like the way the Dining room does, which is practically a stage set.) and more like The Musuem Is Proud To Display The Lecter Collection. This isn't him trying to impress you with his taste and style, but with his family's collective history and taste and sheer aristocratic purchasing power.

The bedroom, what we see of it, is Masculine Plain/Reaptoration Hardware, a kind of Prep school look that denote manly yet fancy areas. A wingback chair covered in pinstripe wouldn't be out of place. It looks built for comfort rather than to impress, but that oval window showing the moon is ...odd. Does he sleep in the attic? As far from the basement as possible?
posted by The Whelk at 6:44 AM on April 6, 2014 [5 favorites]

Also, the Will/Hannibal scene

"I know you feel no remorse, no shame or guilt..."

Is the barely coded subtext to "JUST LIKE ME MY PLAN IS WORKING."

Having someone try to kill you than once is pretty much going steady in the Art Murder world.

(throws a life-saver for the drowning passengers of the S.S Decoy Hannigraham.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:59 AM on April 6, 2014 [7 favorites]

Also Chilton's "whatever the hell this is." looks exactly like the logo for the production company, Living Dead Guy ( hand sticking out of the ground.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:00 AM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

And it looks just like the Fungus Patch Kids of 203.

He's taking the piss in really obvious ways.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 AM on April 6, 2014

I assume the flash-freezing could be done easily with liquid nitrogen. Hannibal is enough of a food-prep nerd that I assume he's got the local Airgas on speed-dial for weird molecular gastronomic PEOPLE foods and either has a dewar himself or has access to someone else's.

Partway through season 1, I decided that Alana was sort of the most "normal" person, or at least she was being played as such. I don't know if that's all just to set up her utter freakout at discovering that she's in a show called "Hannibal".
posted by rmd1023 at 7:07 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

STOP BEING ADORABLE
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 AM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here's a quick question, what's the leaf that Hannibal wraps the roast leg o' Gideon in?

Janice Poon hasn't updated her blog for the latest episode yet, though she should in the next day or two. We'll know then, I'm sure, if someone reading the thread doesn't know enough about cooking with clay to know what you use.
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 AM on April 6, 2014

I just... Remember the way Will realized that jack was upset about something, and he insisted that he was going to sit with jack and not leave until he talked about it. He didn't know what he could do to help, but he was going to do something, even if it was just showing his support and offering comfort even whether jack appeared to want it or not.
posted by tel3path at 10:06 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Her stepdad was a serial killer? And she pleaded "mom please don't date him, he's a serial killer" and was ignored?

A parent of sibling who died in an unexpected horrifying way OR a sibling was sexually molested by one of the adults in the family OR family member develops a mental illness and in the resulting chaos Alana develops the survival skill of both NOT SEEING and becoming mommy/daddy's little helper in order to become the "good child" in the family. She has survivor's guilt yet the safety of her psyche demands that she not see evidence of the cause of the trauma.

Either that or she has, in fact, always been the prettiest princess and never learned otherwise. Bedelia says "traumatized/damaged people are dangerous because they know they can survive" well, maybe Alana isn't traumatized/damaged and therefore isn't going to (psychologically) survive this, at least that is what i'm afraid will happen to her.

She definitely reads as if she grew up in an Ordinary People type of household where what the neighbors think of you is more important than fixing what's wrong in the family. I could see Alana being the " cheerleader/straight A student/class president" type driving herself to reflect well on her family both as fulfilling the community's idea of the perfect daughter AND as a desire to keep close scrutiny of her home life by outsiders at bay. Her family would probably reward that behavior very generously, hence the whole "pretty princess" vibe.

This would be the core of psychological navel gazing that's she supposed to doing in order to resolve her woundedness but she's not self-aware enough to understand that her own maladaptive psychological defense system is creating the opposite of awareness.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:10 AM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

Here's a quick question, what's the leaf that Hannibal wraps the roast leg o' Gideon in?

My guess would be an Elephant Ear (taro plant). Banana leaves are used a lot, but they're more oblong.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:18 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thank you, echolalia. I was more or less convinced that she must have grown up with the skill of selective inattention and that it didn't simply begin with Hannibal; rather, Hannibal spotted it in her and made full use of it, as well as making full use of her ability to appear highly functional, virtuous, and well put together. It is noticeable that she is one of the characters he's supposedly "genuinely" attached to but he's not trying to cultivate her into an equal like he did with Bedelia or Will.
posted by tel3path at 11:05 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Guys, I figured out why Alana is wearing so much blue this season.

"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe."
posted by tel3path at 11:41 AM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also explains why she hasn't been alone in a room with will. He would see right through her. Attraction is only half the story. The other half is that she's attracted to him because he would see right through her.

Exactly. It's easier for her to think that this all about Will's brokenness when it's really about him seeing hers. Her psychological safety is entirely dependent on her being the healer of broken people, not being the person whose need for healing cannot be accomplished by herself alone. She cannot conceive of anyone still caring for her after they see all the scars and seams.

She regards being truly seen as an annihilation of the armory she's created to keep her feelings of brokenness and powerlessness at bay. She senses that her sense of loss and trauma is similar to Will's and she retreats to the safety of her role as a healer of broken people rather than let him see the wounds they both have in common.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:43 AM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

There is also the concept in psychotherapy that the person in the family system who is most obviously mentally unstable is actually the sanest person of all of them; that their outward display of mental illness is a understandable reaction to being surrounded by people equally dysfunctional but who deny that anything is wrong.

Furthermore, the person who sees the dysfunction is usually treated as the family scapegoat or is constantly being gas lit so that the rest of the people around them can maintain their sense of normalcy and sanity, despite evidence to the contrary. Will is that person in the Hannibal family.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:58 AM on April 6, 2014 [6 favorites]

When Will gives his surprise interview to Freddie he doesn't know Brown killed the bailiff. He doesn't realize until two minutes before he asks him to kill Hannibal as a favor.

I think you're not giving Will enough credit. He's a profiler and his guard/orderly was a killer himself -- I think he did sniff it out and decide to do something about it. If you watch that scene between Will and Freddie again, I think you'll notice that everything Will says sounds much more like he's talking to Brown rather than Freddie, especially his being oddly (for Will) complimentary to whoever killed the bailiff and judge. The camera also pans out so that we're sure that Brown is hearing him during that scene, and then later, Brown responds by approaching him next time they're alone together. In this past episode, we saw him talking directly to Gideon between cells, also in order to pass messages to Chilton via the wiretap, so I'm more confident now than I was when he did it that, when he told Brown *there* that he wanted Hannibal dead, he was trying to pass information to Chilton and Gideon about Brown attacking Hannibal (and things played out perfectly -- Chilton alerted Alana that she should talk to Gideon, who alerted her to the plan). I also think that Will must have at least aimed to pick off Brown and had thought it was at least a strong possibility that Hannibal wasn't going to die, because like Jack says when he comes in the next day or so -- Will doesn't seem too broken up about it. He's not crushed that Hannibal is still alive, for sure, he seems like everything happened as expected. Will is desperate in that he's in a desperate circumstance, but he's clever. I also think Hannibal is right and he's in more control [of himself] than ever.

Also Chilton still wants to catch the Ripper, to bolster his reputation. He is pretty much on Will's side, so it's possible Will will try to use that (but probably not). At any rate Chilton will likely stay mixed up in everything.

I think Chilton would like to catch the Ripper, in an ideal world, but he's also scared as hell. I think he's going to try to do what he can to save his own skin, and part of that is probably staying on Hannibal's good side. Plus, Gideon tortured him and tried to kill him, and I doubt he'd have any compunction about setting up Gideon to be tortured and killed -- especially if, included in that deal, is the poetic justice of the supposed "Chesapeake Ripper" dying at the hands of the real "Chesapeake Ripper" (that would be a huge IN YO FACE to Gideon, from Chilton's POV, I think). That's actually the thing I like about Chilton now, when he sees danger he doesn't just fart around or worry about everybody else and his brother, he just goes ahead and takes it seriously.

"I know you feel no remorse, no shame or guilt..."

Is the barely coded subtext to "JUST LIKE ME MY PLAN IS WORKING."

I heard it as an attempt at a guilt trip. Sort of like, "look at how many people you're making me kill." It actually sounded like an oddly fatherly thing for him to say? (As bizarre as that is).

On the one hand, Hannibal is asserting dominance/on a power trip by saying he's going to keep killing people and there's nothing that Will or anybody can do about it, and on the other hand, he's trying to be hurtful by saying the blood of those people (and especially Beverly) is on Will's hands because he screwed up by daring to attack Hannibal.
posted by rue72 at 12:09 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's totally both, Text ( for Chilton) I'm so disappointed in you! You tried to kill me. Killing people is wrong. You are wrong because you have no remorse. sub-text : my plan is working! You're killing without guilt or shame! Sub-sub text: Trying to kill me, while romantic, is wrong. Seriously I'll start killing your last remaining friends if you keep this up. Sub-Vocal Sub Sub Tweet: Seriously I got a plan to get you out just CHILL OUT for a day or so honeybunch.
posted by The Whelk at 12:14 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

Now there's a thing to try to say, just when will is most aware of boundaries and who's guilty of what.

He used to feel guilty for being able to read crime scenes, now he doesn't feel guilty for sending a killer to catch a killer (nor, in the circumstances, should he feel particularly guilty).

I wonder why he says "nothing I said made that happen" though. It seems that what he said actually was the proximate cause of that happening.
posted by tel3path at 12:15 PM on April 6, 2014

But yes the sinking ship S.S. Decoy Hannigram is gonna sail again if I really understand that conversation correctly.
posted by tel3path at 12:18 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder why he says "nothing I said made that happen" though. It seems that what he said actually was the proximate cause of that happening.

I think he's saying that he's got influence rather than power. He can influence events or people in one direction or another, but he can't act directly, so he can't "make" things happen (because he's trapped in a cage). I wonder how much of that will carry over when he's out?
posted by rue72 at 12:19 PM on April 6, 2014

Mind you, will pulling a gun next week may mean couples counselling is required

But they can just get alana to be the counselor
posted by tel3path at 12:19 PM on April 6, 2014

Mind you, will pulling a gun next week may mean couples counselling is required

But they can just get alana to be the counselor

oh lord can you imagine.
posted by rue72 at 12:22 PM on April 6, 2014

Yeah, but saying "i want you to kill hannibal lecter" to someone who had already demonstrated his ability and willingness to do just that, AND naming hannibal as the target rather than just saying "oh go kill some random guy, who cares, whatever"... i mean I'm pretty sure that's got to count as incitement to violence or whatever else they call it in the Us. Of course, you could flip it over and also see it as entrapment, which is what you'd call it if will were still considered to be on the right side of the law, if he were still a cop (and it would be a nonlegitimate move for a cop as well).

But i think a bigger point is being made here - that you can't be the cause of someone else's behaviour with your words. Brainwashing by use of psychic driving and drugs is another matter, of course; there's gideon as an example of that. I have it on good authority that you actually can use hallucinogens and brainwashing techniques to push a *dodgy person* to do something they wouldnt otherwise have done, provided that it's ego-syntonic for them to do that thing. Gideon was apparently already a killer and then chilton fucked with his head so badly that he may very well be unrecognizable from the, admittedly not so virtuous, person he used to be; we'll never see that person so we don't know. And then gideon psychic-drives chilton and/or his employees to kill him; the fact that it's A cane, even if it's not chilton's cane (but it belongs to one of chilton's employees so by extension it's his) that strikes him down, shows that to be the case.

And i'm sorry to harp on the alana thing again but i also think it's important to her decision making here too. I keep reading people saying it's hannibal's fault for brainwashing her and deluding her into thinking he's a good guy, but for a number of reasons some of which i've laid out in this thread and some elsewhere (i will enumerate them if anyone is interested enough to request it, otherwise i'm not gonna go through it again) i think we're past the point where we can rightly say that any more. Unless i'm mistaken and he literally has been brainwashing alana with drugs and hypnosis into thinking he's someone he's not - and i mean even beyond hitting her head in s1 and sedating her post frick frack just now - then everything that alana has said during this episode leads me to believe she is participating in her own deception. I think it's gonna be drugs and brainwashing galore from this moment on, yes, but i think it's being made as clear to us as possible that it was her choice to let the vampire in. I'm not saying she did so with full knowledge and has reason to know beyond the shadow of a doubt, but i do say that she's taken the blue pill.
posted by tel3path at 12:33 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

But hannibal's also attacking will's sense of responsibility.
Will finally got rid of his misplaced guilt - yay!

He says "no hannibal, you made me try to kill you, i blame you, it's your fault"
Hannibal says "fine, i'm gonna kill a bunch of people because you pissed me off and that will be your fault, how do you like your new boundaries now, sucker"

So he pushes the guilt right back to will, showing him that this way of thinking isn't going to be tenable.
posted by tel3path at 12:39 PM on April 6, 2014

Yeah, but saying "i want you to kill hannibal lecter" to someone who had already demonstrated his ability and willingness to do just that, AND naming hannibal as the target rather than just saying "oh go kill some random guy, who cares, whatever"... i mean I'm pretty sure that's got to count as incitement to violence or whatever else they call it in the Us.

He only said, "I want Hannibal Lector dead," I *think.* Which he's said ad nauseam to everyone who will listen, so I guess all by itself that statement might not be very good proof that Will "made" Brown attack Hannibal. (I'm so curious what happened to Brown, I want to hear more about what story he's giving. He must be coming back at some point, obviously BSHCI is where he should be incarcerated).

Anyway, I was scared it would still lead to all kinds of attempted murder charges and whatnot, but apparently, nobody in the universe of Hannibal actually cares, so that's a good thing I guess. Except in the sense that they apparently think words are meaningless bullshit and don't hold anyone accountable for them. Which is a viewpoint I'm sort of partial to but that is endlessly depressing and logistically confusing.

But i think a bigger point is being made here - that you can't be the cause of someone else's behaviour with your words.

Yeah, I completely agree. I also think that's why Will is so bitter later in the conversation when he says, "you think I'm in control?"

I have it on good authority that you actually can use hallucinogens and brainwashing techniques to push a *dodgy person* to do something they wouldnt otherwise have done, provided that it's ego-syntonic for them to do that thing.

I think that you can make someone believe something because they have no concept that there's even something else *to* believe (ie, hegemonic control) or you can make someone believe something because they are terrified of any alternative being true (ie, intimidation/torture) or you can make someone believe something because they want to believe it (ie, sales).

This show seems to play with all three. I think that the whole "aligned with the patriarchy" thing I was talking about earlier, and the assumptions the characters make about each other, is the show playing with hegemony. I think the story with Mariam Lass (and others, but I think that's going to be at the root of her story) is all about intimidation/torture. I think the story with Alana is about sales -- she wants to buy what Hannibal's selling, so she does.*

*I think there's also an idea there about how [conspicuous] consumption is tied into "the meat market," aka dating, and people/mates as commodities.
posted by rue72 at 1:03 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

I was only kind of joking. Like my suspicion that she's having her head fucked with chemically on the regular is increasing tenfold.

Maybe I missed this in a previous conversation, but there was that Season 1 episode where Hannibal makes a big deal about brewing beer as Alana's "special reserve," and it has a flavor she can't quite identify, and this is also when Hannibal makes his first open advance to her: "People thought we were having an affair." "Why didn't we?" So I'm definitely in the "he's drugging her, maybe with something like oxytocin" camp.

It's also worth remembering that S1 Alana actually doesn't get along very well with Hannibal outside of that scene. She's very angry with him over his withdrawing and then drugging (!) Abigail Hobbs without contacting her first, and she's also ticked off when Hannibal supports Jack regarding Will's field work. She isn't blind to his flaws in those scenes; in some respects, she's the first character in the series to become disenchanted by Hannibal's arrogant, sometimes self-serving behavior.

And then he starts providing her with a "special reserve." Hmmmm....
posted by kewb at 1:11 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

I think he said "I want you to kill hannibal lecter" but even if the wording was different, he still incriminated himself by saying words to that effect. I mean if you say something by implicature in such a way that a reasonable person could only interpret it one way, then legally, you said it. For example in the uk, if you said "joe worked here from 2010 until he was let go in June 2012. In june 2012 a large amount of stock was stolen from the storeroom," you are implying that joe was fired for stealing from the storeroom and no reasonable person would interpret it otherwise. You don't get to deflect a libel charge by saying "but I didn't actually say joe was the thief."

Anyway, i see a psychiatrist once a year, and this psychiatrist now specializes in hypnosis. He assured me that psychic driving was feasible in the way it was done to gideon and the way I described it above. It's also what Hannibal tried to do to clarice. The reason he didn't manage to convince her she was his sister was because there was no reason for any such thought to ever enter her head, at all. She didn't even know he had a sister. Of course, her internal motivations for being head-turned as much as she was are completely absent from the book, so it's a bad example in that way, but i hope you see what i mean.
posted by tel3path at 1:13 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

DAMNIT YOU THREE
posted by The Whelk at 1:16 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

No, the beer is people. (Unless it turns out not to be in which case you were right.)

And yes, alana is demonstrably capable of confronting hannibal and questioning his actions. This makes it all the more conspicuous that she doesn't do so when it comes to will. Actually helping will would mean questioning her relationship with hannibal as a whole, which is why she always stops short of giving will meaningful help. The scene where she so pitifully sobs "I want to save you" is reminiscent of a mother tearfully helpless to solve her child's behaviour problems because, to do that, she'd have to actually believe him when he said daddy was abusing him. She'll do anything, absolutely anything to help him, just not that.
posted by tel3path at 1:18 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

What if the special reserve wasn't Miram Beer like we all suspected but actually you know, some crazy psychotropic cocktail? That she presumably started having as a semi-regular basis?
posted by The Whelk at 1:18 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

She'll do anything, absolutely anything to help him, just not that.

shed do anything for love, except wonder if you might not be a mass murderer
posted by The Whelk at 1:20 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

That is possible! But the thing is though, i don't get the impression she was visiting Hannibal regularly before then. She knocks on his door and he says "do you have an appointment" as if she wasn't dropping by to see him on the regular.

But yes. If the beer isn't Miriam, what is it...

I also have a suspicion he puts ecstasy in the food because the way people love his cooking, okay nobody's that good a cook...
posted by tel3path at 1:21 PM on April 6, 2014

Yeah but no one is dancing and writhing around and staring at light halos and getting back rubs for an hour afterwards while talking about how amazing and connected they feel.

Wait maybe that's what happens at dinner.
posted by The Whelk at 1:23 PM on April 6, 2014

Yes, "you think i'm in control?"

Yes, way to give the game away, Hannibal.

Principle of least interest. Will's in control because HANNIBAL STILL LOVES HIM

THE SS DECOY HANNIGRAM SAILS AGAIN
posted by tel3path at 1:24 PM on April 6, 2014

(although my friend once described the primary danger of ecstasy as "instant, totally unwarranted emotional connections to whomever happens to be in a ten foot radius.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:24 PM on April 6, 2014

I think he said "I want you to kill hannibal lecter" but even if the wording was different, he still incriminated himself by saying words to that effect.

I agree with you, I thought (legal) problems were going to spring from Will putting a hit on Hannibal via Brown, regardless of his choice of words -- but apparently nobody within the show cares. Also, I guess it makes sense that they don't, if they don't truly think that words have much power.

They apparently haven't read much feminist theory: WORDS ARE ACTS GUYS!!!1!

And then he starts providing her with a "special reserve." Hmmmm....

But what could he be drugging her with that would make her like or believe someone she wouldn't otherwise? I've *cough* got reason to believe *cough* that even pretty powerful drugs don't change your personality all that much. Even drugs that are *supposed* to change your personality a bit seem to just change your mood and maybe your sensory perceptions. A changed mood and sensory perceptions might make her more inclined to like or believe Hannibal (and/or to visit him more often!) but wouldn't mean she was under anything like mind-control.

Anyhow, you can put both people and drugs into a drink, I would think, they're not mutually exclusive. I just don't know what drugs would even be useful. And I doubt she's on anything too hard-core seeing as when Abigail was just schrooming she was acting high as a kite.

I also have a suspicion he puts ecstasy in the food because the way people love his cooking, okay nobody's that good a cook...

This makes me think of when Hannibal put all that "oregano" in Beverly's ground-up kidney.
posted by rue72 at 1:25 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

(although my friend once described the primary danger of ecstasy as "instant, totally unwarranted emotional connections to whomever happens to be in a ten foot radius.)

I thought it was that it made holes in your brain. And/or the epically horrible comedown where you feel like you're the most wretched creature on earth for every reason you always secretly feared and cry for the same amount of time you got to be high for in the first place (and all you want is more ecstasy to make it better -- MISTAKE).

Alana doesn't have nearly enough highs or lows to be on anything much, I don't think. She's not even ever especially cranky.
posted by rue72 at 1:28 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well the holes in your brain not so much, but the " oh god I feel awful " hangover is pretty real

ER, or so I've been told.
posted by The Whelk at 1:30 PM on April 6, 2014

( it does grant you the magical ability to understand house music however.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:31 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

OK, since I'm excited about what will probably be a big dud/crazy fan theory, here's the "drugging Alana" timeline. She bristles when Hannibal gives Jack the go-ahead to send Will into the field in episode 3; interestingly, Hannibal rather brutally KOs her later in that same episode in order to conceal the death of Nicholas Boyle and get his hooks into Abigail.

In the very next episode, Hannibal's plan for treating Abigail is the opposite of Alana's, and she rejects his idea that Abigail's ready to go back into the world. Later, Alana gets even more ticked off at Hannibal after he withdraws Abigail from the BSHCI without contacting her, and then drugs her patient on top of that! Here she refers to him as "shockingly rude."

Alana takes episode 5 off, then she and Hannibal soft-interrogate Chilton about Abel Gideon in episode 6. Hannibal takes Chilton aside after Alana rather aggressively suggests that Gideon was subjected to psychic driving and presents a more reassuring case to Chilton. On the one hand, he's confirming a suspicion for Alana; on the other, he does it in a way that's clearly undermining her. Standard Hannibal.

In episode 7, "Potage," Alana is at Hannibal's home for a dinner, and there's where Hannibal first starts asking about her relationship with Will Graham, serves her a "special reserve" beer that's for *her alone*, and openly flirts with her.

In episode 8, Alana goes to Will's house and they have their awkward not-romantic interlude. If Alana's objectionable behavior kicks into high gear here, the "drugged beer" theory starts to look like an explanation for the giggliness, even the kiss. Alana's judgement kicks in and she turns down the "unstable" Will. Will then tells Hannibal all about the kiss and Hannibal offers a ready-made excuse for why Alana might not want to date Will.

In episode 9, when Jack Crawford starts asking tough questions about the death of Nichaols Boyle and what might have happened that night Alana was KOed, she supports Hannibal's story and is horrified that Jack would accuse him of any impropriety. (She's also protecting Abigail; notice that Hannibal was clearly out to create a weird "family dynamic" back in E4 on this score, with Alana as mommy. Of course, we all know what happened to Abigail's mommy....)

The next time she's seen, in episode 10, Alana is again flirting a little with Will. Hannibal orchestrates Gideon's attempt to kill her and Will's attempt to kill(?) Gideon, which leads to Alana finding Will in a heap outside.

Alana's only interaction with Hannibal in the rest of Season 1 is an "all-business" conversation regarding Will's deteriorating mental condition in the final episode.

I mentioned oxtocin above because it causes pair-bonding in humans, at least in the popular culture world. (Well, I mentioned it mostly because it's what Robot John Ritter was dosing food with to make everyone love him in that old Buffy episode.)
posted by kewb at 1:34 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

They think he's not getting out anyway.

Also, the fact that a serial killer was his orderly might attract negative attention to chilton and that's why it all gets glossed over.
posted by tel3path at 1:36 PM on April 6, 2014

rue72: "I agree with you, I thought (legal) problems were going to spring from Will putting a hit on Hannibal via Brown, regardless of his choice of words -- but apparently nobody within the show cares. Also, I guess it makes sense that they don't, if they don't truly think that words have much power."

My take on this is that being sent to the Dungeon requires some sort of adjudication of insanity that would negate the reliability of any confession recorded by Chilton, so the cops don't even bother to use Chilton's recordings as evidence because they never hold up in court.
posted by Dr. Zira at 1:37 PM on April 6, 2014

I'll also point out that drugging people he's close to in order to create "connections" or foster quick and effective manipulations is one of Hannibal's more consistent tricks. He does it to Will. He does it to Abigail. Most of you are sure he's done it to Miriam. In the books, he does it to Mason Verger, Ray Krendler, and Clarice Starling.

Within this pattern is an even clearer one: if Hannibal sees a woman as a sexual/sororal object (and he may not even make that distinction), he pretty much always tries a combination of drugs and manipulation to reshape them.

Working against my theory is Fuller's assurance that we won't see any sexual violence on the show, but I'd argue his dalliance/relationship with Alana -- even without the drugging -- is practically there already given its incredibly deceptive circumstances.
posted by kewb at 1:44 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Will's sanity is still in question though and determines whether he will be executed or remain in the loony bin.

His actions seem to suggest (to Alana) that he's just a psychopath who's been playing them all along. She entirely fails to pay attention to the question raised by Gideon about who put him up to killing her. She asks who gave gideon her address and he implies that an unnamed third party did it. I assume she jumps to the conclusion that will sent him there. I understand why she wouldn't let herself be manipulated by listening to an insane person, but she should really refuse to listen to all of it, including the part where he acknowledges that he intended to kill her.

She also entirely fails to pay attention to the question of why Will WOULDN'T be motivated to smoke out the "admirer" who's been mailing him ears and murdering courtroom staff and indeed, as it turns out, working in the hospital as HIS orderly. Nor why he then WOULD be motivated to tell everyone what he had done.
posted by tel3path at 1:45 PM on April 6, 2014

I don't know, kewb, i thought maybe alana's unnatural calm when hannibal tells her she was right and she joins abigail in the dining room... That looks like it COULD be a response to a hypnotic cue.

I am leaning towards the interpretation that he hasn't been drugging her so far, that he rendered her unconscious for instrumental purposes in s1, but that right after she slept with him the drugging began in earnest and it's just gonna be ongoing from now on.

I think that in order for hannibloom to be not-rape it has to have started from a place of relative freedom of choice, relative that is to hannibal's systematic deception. When they said they "buried will" in their morning Talking About Our Relationship conversation (and i assume they're in for a lot of those) i think the double meaning is that they buried free will, for alana, meaning that she did have free will up to that point but has now signed it away. And the next time we see her she has her arms crossed in hannibal's white shirt and it looks like a straitjacket. She clearly has a lot of yellow wallpaper in her future.

But I have thought in the past that maybe Hannibal has been systematically drugging and/or hypnotizing alana for the entire time he's known her. I now lean towards it being a matter of his simply leveraging her psychological weaknesses, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be teh brainwashingz.
posted by tel3path at 1:52 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

They think he's not getting out anyway.

Also, the fact that a serial killer was his orderly might attract negative attention to chilton and that's why it all gets glossed over.

True, Chilton and the FBI can't make a stink about the orderlies and patients conspiring to murder the creme de la creme of Bmore without shining a very unflattering light on themselves.

If they really don't think that Will killed anybody (aside from GJH) then I think that it makes sense that they'd probably be willing to let the already slim case against Will for attempted murder/conspiracy slide. If I were them, I'd definitely be thinking it's more trouble than it's worth.

I'll also point out that drugging people he's close to in order to create "connections" or foster quick and effective manipulations is one of Hannibal's more consistent tricks. He does it to Will. He does it to Abigail. Most of you are sure he's done it to Miriam. In the books, he does it to Mason Verger, Ray Krendler, and Clarice Starling.

I think that Hannibal definitely loves drugging people, he loves experimenting on people altogether. He also likes trying to make people do things they would never want to do, to see if he can. So I think it's completely plausible/likely (maybe certain) that he's been drugging Alana, messing with her head, etc. I mean, if he thinks it's fun to induce seizures in his friends, and feed his semi-enemies their own body parts, I think he wouldn't bat an eyelash at something as relatively ordinary as slipping Alana some Oxy.

But I don't know what drug could simultaneously be so powerful that it substantially changes the way Alana thinks or her perspective, without changing how she acts or interacts enough for it not to be obvious to everyone else?

Also, I think part of what the show is exploring is agency, and it seems a little cheap to say "oops, Alana didn't/doesn't have any agency, she's high as shit." So that's where my resistance to writing off Alana's choices/actions as the result of drugs and Hannibal's control is coming from -- I don't think that her agency should just be erased like that. For thematic reasons if nothing else.
posted by rue72 at 1:54 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

Anyway, FBI employees get drug-tested. Bella asked Jack about it before he smoked up with her.

So my guess is that that's how it'll be uncovered.

Also, although Alana is wearing a Murder Tie patterned scarf in the Death Match Confrontation Apocalypse preview, she IS wearing red, which means the effects of the blue pill will have worn off. That reassures me she is really pointing the gun at him and not someone standing behind him.
posted by tel3path at 1:55 PM on April 6, 2014

Actually, yes. I think that if hannibal had been drugging alana before now, the drug testing of fbi staff would have picked up on it.
posted by tel3path at 1:57 PM on April 6, 2014

Maybe just because she starts interacting with him more though. And has the hots for him. She always has. We all would.
posted by tel3path at 1:58 PM on April 6, 2014

Also, I think part of what the show is exploring is agency, and it seems a little cheap to say "oops, Alana didn't/doesn't have any agency, she's high as shit." So that's where my resistance to writing off Alana's choices/actions as the result of drugs and Hannibal's control is coming from -- I don't think that her agency should just be erased like that. For thematic reasons if nothing else.

Yeah, I have to say I agree with this. It really comes across that way to me in the latest episode. Of course things can turn out to be not what they seem, like where he was exacerbating will's symptoms rather than just taking advantage of them. But that was a case of things being what they seemed only more so.

I could go with mindcontrolled!alana because of the head bash, but... Tbh i think he has enough to leverage there without resorting to pharmaceuticals.

Otoh what was that pic bryan fuller tweeted of an astrolabe-type pendant with an hourglass in the centre... What did he mean by that? Is that the Swinging Pendulum of Hypnosis meaning he is hypnotizing her after all? I don't even recognize the pendant.
posted by tel3path at 2:17 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's "totally warp your mind" stuff, just "mild euphoria/I like this person I'm talking to a lot" to bolster his usual manipulations. There's definitely a preexisting attraction between Hannibal and Alana, but a lot of what people are calling her "off" behavior starts at that scene with the special beer.

I think he definitely *has* been manipulating her, and part of that is probably literally physically manipulating her, via drugs, violence (the KO), etc. I completely believe that the "special" beer had things in it, since they made a point of her not being able to identify all the tastes/"notes" in it. I also wouldn't put it past him to do things like have sex with her while she's drug-addled or all kinds of pretty horrifying things, I don't think she's at all safe with him and it creeps me the fuck out.

But I don't feel comfortable ceding all of Alana's agency to Hannibal, as though she's literally his puppet. She's still a person with her own mind and soul, and her choices are still *hers.*

This maybe goes back to the essay linked at the top of the thread and the mind/body dichotomy. On the one hand, Hannibal might be able to to take total control over Alana's body. He does the same to the bodies of other people. He even *consumes* other people's bodies as a way of demonstrating total control over them. He has had total control over Will's body for quite a while.

But it's a big question mark whether he can consume or control people's souls/spirits/inner lives. So far, I think he hasn't been able to. But maybe he *was* able to with Mariam, we'll see.

What's interesting about Alana, I think, is that she's trying to give him control over her inner life. But she can't quite do it -- she's still separate from him. Maybe her story with Hannibal is mirrored in Bella's story with Jack; Bella told Hannibal she didn't want to die in front of Jack, because then she'd become an object, separate from Jack. Maybe objectifying someone is a way of splitting them off from yourself, isolating them from yourself? And some of these characters are fighting becoming objects/objectified by trying to subsume themselves within the identities of the people who would otherwise objectify them?
posted by rue72 at 2:18 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

Otoh what was that pic bryan fuller tweeted of an astrolabe-type pendant with an hourglass in the centre... What did he mean by that? Is that the Swinging Pendulum of Hypnosis meaning he is hypnotizing her after all? I don't even recognize the pendant.

It was a Time Turner from Harry Potter.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:26 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

So clearly, Hannibal's going to save Buckbeak.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:27 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

Someone just pointed out that cassie boyle isn't one of the lures.

WHY NOT
posted by tel3path at 2:27 PM on April 6, 2014

She clearly has a lot of yellow wallpaper in her future.

In my crazy projected future it was Hannibal and Alana smooching in the living room with Will locked in the bedroom upstairs but possibly turn the other way around now?
posted by The Whelk at 2:48 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

( in unrelated news I found a decent source of cow and chicken hearts in town.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:52 PM on April 6, 2014

Is hannibal keeping cassie boyle bits for future will-framing purposes, or did he just eat every bit? (maybe fed as sausage to the dogs?)
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on April 6, 2014

Well that image of alana in a straitjacket-type outfit is really striking. I think it shows she's in the most extreme danger right now, in every way.

I guess it says good things for her future sanity that she does switch back to wearing red for 213.

Boy, is she ever under hannibal's control right now, though. Yowza.

I don't know how will is going to go from pulling a gun next week to throwing a liplock on hannibal in following weeks. But bryan fuller did tell a hannigram shipper not to lose hope.

I mean "you found a way to hurt me"... I reckon a fake relationship would hurt hannibal in ways he never even anticipated. And bonearenaofmyskull pointed out that when he says "our friendship wasn't as i saw it" he really meant "you were a killer all along and not an innocent faun" which is kind of like saying "you were what i wanted all along but i don't get any" or, in other words "you were cheating on me with yourself"
posted by tel3path at 3:00 PM on April 6, 2014

You know Hannibal is gonna pull some "No, killing me is not the answer! Think of what it will do to you! You'll never be able to relate to normal people ever again!"

Subtext for Hannibal: no matter what happens, I win, either he backs down and I have more time to mold him or he kills me and becomes an honest to god killer. Sub sub text: His gun is against my neck. I have the weirdest boner right now.
posted by The Whelk at 3:12 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

but there was that Season 1 episode where Hannibal makes a big deal about brewing beer as Alana's "special reserve," and it has a flavor she can't quite identify

I remember him giving her the "hey this is people" look in that episode (I might try to find a screencap), so I think the flavour is people. But I don't think it's out of line to assume he's drugging her; it seems entirely in character, just as much as feeding humans to other people without their knowledge (or with their knowledge, sorry Abel).
posted by jeather at 3:23 PM on April 6, 2014

Subtext for Hannibal: no matter what happens, I win, either he backs down and I have more time to mold him or he kills me and becomes an honest to god killer. Sub sub text: His gun is against my neck. I have the weirdest biner rig now.

I think this is why Will actually does have to catch rather than kill Hannibal. He's got to look out for himself first, and there's no real need for him to degrade himself that way.

But of course that's also what I felt about Bella -- fuck that slap, get an injunction at the least. If I were Will, I wouldn't want to kill Hannibal, I'd want his world to imperceptibly crumble in around him until he's left utterly alone and powerless, betrayed by his own mind and instincts, and then I'd want to watch the look on his face as he realizes it. Then, I'd stand in front of *his* cage and act oh-so-sweet and understanding and cluck my tongue: oh, poor dear. Because I'm a bitch.

The nice thing is, I think that Will is a bitch, too, so hopefully he'll do something similar.

Arguably, that would involve Will turning quite a bit into Hannibal, too, though. I'm sure his feelings would be much more nuanced and interesting than mine would be, too, to be honest. I'm looking forward to seeing how he reacts when he does get Hannibal.

In my crazy projected future it was Hannibal and Alana smooching in the living room with Will locked in the bedroom upstairs but possibly turn the other way around now?

Alana is trying very hard to lock herself into some kind of trap, I think. I think she's thinking she's locking people out when really she's locking herself in.

I can empathize with her, if it's out of fear -- if she actually believes that her other friends and colleagues are people who might just start hallucinating and serial killing as a matter of course (like Will) and who might just use people until they shatter into unfixable pieces (like Jack), then I can see why she'd try to bury herself within the strongest person she can find and take refuge there (ie, with/in Hannibal*). I think that Gideon was feeling something like that when he was saying that he felt safe locked away in BSHCI.

It's not even a terrible impulse, I think -- the problem is, just like Gideon was only safe from Hannibal by being utterly vulnerable to Chilton within BSHCI, Alana is only safe from Jack/Will/the world by being utterly vulnerable to Hannibal.

Hannibal doesn't need to lock Alana into the bedroom upstairs, she's already closed that door. She tells herself she's admiring the thousand-count sheet as she winds it into a noose.

This show messes me up because I hate rooting for everyone to lose all ability to trust or feel safe, but I feel like rooting for anything else is just rooting for them to get hurt.

*btw, theme song for Hannibloom? (Hannibal would be Aaliyah).
posted by rue72 at 3:26 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

It occurs to me that this Hannibal's worst nightmare might well be institutional food and clothing.
posted by kewb at 3:29 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

It occurs to me that this Hannibal's worst nightmare might well be institutional food and clothing.

Yeah, and I don't think just out of hedonism, I think also because of the total lack of power and control that would represent.
posted by rue72 at 3:31 PM on April 6, 2014 [2 favorites]

It occurs to me that this Hannibal's worst nightmare might well be institutional food and clothing.

I said before, if you really want to mess with Hannibal's dark heart, fuck up his fussy little fucking herb planters.
posted by The Whelk at 3:35 PM on April 6, 2014 [6 favorites]

It occurs to me that this Hannibal's worst nightmare might well be institutional food and clothing.

It's going to be schadenfreudelicious seeing him in that jumpsuit, getting that tray of lumpy foodstuff.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:45 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

I said before, if you really want to mess with Hannibal's dark heart, fuck up his fussy little fucking herb planters.

I'd die if after seeing how little Hannibal fears Will pointing a gun at him in his own home next week, he proceeded to do just that.
posted by sparkletone at 5:37 PM on April 6, 2014

It's going to be schadenfreudelicious seeing him in that jumpsuit, getting that tray of lumpy foodstuff

Raul Esparza is going to cause herniations from laughter.
posted by sparkletone at 5:40 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

( in unrelated news I found a decent source of cow and chicken hearts in town.)

I didn't realize you were still looking! I would have given you the details on the meat market near me. Though to be fair I've only bought liver from there and not been quite adventurous enough to buy hearts or kidneys or gizzards on their own.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:48 PM on April 6, 2014

Wait what that's way closer than what I found MeMail me.

HANNIBAK BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER.
posted by The Whelk at 7:12 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd die if after seeing how little Hannibal fears Will pointing a gun at him in his own home next week, he proceeded to do just that.

will just starts wordlessly tipping them over

"I understand you're upset"

*crash*

"we can talk about this."

*crash*

"Just come here and don't do anything-"

*crash*

"NOT THE OPAL BASIL."
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 PM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's really funny to me because I can find obscure organs like everywhere here. Usually next to the scrapple. I'm just not brave or talented enough to try it. I really ought to take pictures the next time I'm at the supermarket.
posted by dogheart at 7:37 PM on April 6, 2014

I can find obscure organs like everywhere here

A couple of weeks ago I was getting an ultrasound (for more cardiac and kidney function purposes) and as he was waving the beam around looking for relevant bits the operator said, "hey, there's your gall bladder." For some reason I thought of this show.
posted by localroger at 7:55 PM on April 6, 2014

I'm still upset they never let me keep my four HUGE ASS wisdom teeth to make into cufflinks.
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on April 6, 2014

I turned my thoughts on the Hannibal Living Room into a tumblr thing.

Side thought, it's a parlor, like welcome to my parlor said the spider.

Also cause I come from a background where the idea of a public front room was A Ting cause of course you'd have people over to see the front room and that's where you put all the things that are impressive (cause family! these things just pile up!) but you can't really use and it exists as a liminal semi-public space for entertaining vs. a more private area where your own personality/style/comfort is kept.

He said his back to a spinnet piano and a painting made before his grandmother was born of a woman he never met.

eep.
posted by The Whelk at 9:12 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

I haven't checked the Hannibal crack tag yet, but I'm really hoping this inspires people to put silly harpsichord versions of things under those shots of Hannibal looking smug while playing from the end of this week's episode.
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 PM on April 6, 2014

"AND I DID IT ...MY WAY"
posted by The Whelk at 9:36 PM on April 6, 2014

I kind of want to say the parlor/living room is one of his public faces, like the Dining Room. It's less aggressive than the dining room, less confrontationally modern and designed (and with no bestiality art on the wall) It's more like the public idea of someone as rich and well-heeled/bred and learned as Lecter presents himself to be. But it also feels like a display case, not a place he lives in. The bedroom gives me the same feeling. This is a stage, a front, not like the dining room where you're guessing if you're supposed to react to the bird skulls and swan sex, but a cozy little encrustation of art and design, a Nice Place For The Right People. No one who has so many Austrian antiques could be an evil man! It's the kind of parlor you'd expect an aristocratic scion from Somewhere In Europe would have. It's swaddled and enclosed, like I said, a jewelery box. A display case.

His office, another public facing mask, is just as designed, but more personal...even more personal in it's conspicuous tastefulness There are no loose ends or odd items. It is Sane.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 PM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

INTERIOR DESIGN HEADCANON: Hannibal didn't get to design his parlor/living room, those are all stuff he has from his family cause aristocrats, it's not really him, just a show of family power. The Office with it's perfect color sense and nothing--out-of-place design and the dining room with the form-pushing cobolt blue and arrangements is more an expression of himself and how he wants to be seen.

Of course the ultimate expression of himself is the murder basement.
posted by The Whelk at 10:25 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

Actually, yes. I think that if hannibal had been drugging alana before now, the drug testing of fbi staff would have picked up on it.

Depends what they're testing for - if it's required by the FBI for routine personnel issues they're probably only testing for signs of the usual stuff - illicit street drugs, alcohol, prescription medicine abuse - and wouldn't be looking for other things.

Hannibal, murder wizard that he is, probably has friends at the R & D departments of major pharmaceutical companies. His love of cooking and mayhem would inevitably lead him to a passion for botany and the little known psychotropic effects of common herbs & flowers. He could come up with compounds that the labs wouldn't even begin to know how to test for.

He's Hannibal, gawddammit; if he can freeze a human in nitrogen bath, saw her into tiny slivers, position them in between two rather thick slabs of glass, etc., and so on, compounding his own proprietary blend of mindfuck juice would be easy-peasy.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:53 PM on April 6, 2014

Would they even be testing her? She's an occasional consultant, not a full time FBI employee/agent.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:58 PM on April 6, 2014

Would they even be testing her? She's an occasional consultant, not a full time FBI employee/agent.

Sure, if the show took place in OUR workaday world. However all of the shenanigans take place in Hannibal's TV WORLD of MURDER WIZARDS where illogical things happen in order to drive the story forward. If that takes the FBI demanding a employee drug test for a non-employee consultant, so be it.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:11 PM on April 6, 2014

Or, he might give her something that would show up in a drug test.
posted by tel3path at 12:32 AM on April 7, 2014

If wearing blue is a sign of taking the blue pill, why is will in a blue shirt next episode...

Either I'm wrong, or he's still in a state of illusion somehow.

And I also wonder why hannibal has switched from blue to red... Unless it's that he now perceives the true nature of his relationship with Will?

I'm wondering if will is still in an erroneous state of mind about what it will take to defeat Hannibal.

Puzzled.
posted by tel3path at 12:34 AM on April 7, 2014

They might drug test jack and find something untoward. Hannibal might need to do something quick and dirty.
posted by tel3path at 12:35 AM on April 7, 2014

But at any rate it's clear she's tasting the "special reserve" for the first time in s1.
posted by tel3path at 1:06 AM on April 7, 2014

OMG thoug.

When alana comes to visit will to break the news that beverly has been killed, she is wearing solid red.

After that she is wearing combinations of blue patterns with solid blue.

It's like she makes the decision to stop thinking about it all, and to switch to hannibal, right after breaking the news about beverly. The unspoken "don't say hannibal" would have been hanging in the air.

If she thinks too much she really will start to wonder if it's time to say hannibal. Better shut that shit down and take the blue pill.
posted by tel3path at 2:47 AM on April 7, 2014

I saw that gif where he snaps his fingers over her ears again. I'm pretty sure he is also plucking hairs from her head. And then he wipes her lip print off the glass.

He is definitely collecting her dna for some particular purpose. What purpose? Is he going to frame her? Kill her and frame will for it?
posted by tel3path at 3:40 AM on April 7, 2014

If I'm Hannibal Lecter than I have an entire medicine drawer full of hair and skin cells I've collected off people JUST IN CASE
posted by The Whelk at 5:03 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

Like is it just me or does anyone think that if Will hadn't set the orderly on Hannibal that they'd have been content to just carry on as they were forever? People get killed, OMG, ONOZ, go break the news to Will, go ask Will who the killer is but tell him not to say Hannibal, people get killed, OMG, ONOZ....

Like they're not particularly pretending to look for the Ripper or for the Admirer. I get that they are swamped with work but increasingly they have been accepting the bodies piling up as something that just *is*. Like they've forgotten that it's sort of their job to do something about it, at least in theory. But no, the biggest threat to them was behind bars, so there was nothing more they could do.

Until the guy behind bars turned out to be a killer too!!!! OMG ONOZ!!! That was the last thing anyone expected!!! Is nothing sacred is nobody safe??? Action must be taken! Preferably the wrong action, but at least something!!!
posted by tel3path at 5:21 AM on April 7, 2014

I dunno, I'd cut them a little slack, given that the FBI's Behavioral Crimes Unit seems to consist of Jack Crawford, ~~three~~ two lab techs, and ~~two~~ one-and-a-half consulting experts. They're so understaffed that all of these people have to double up as the field team!

Add in that there seems to be a new serial killer every 1.5 weeks or so and I imagine it's hard to keep up a long-term investigation, even into a relatively prolific killer. I mean, clearly the BSHCI can't even afford to do proper background checks on its employees, and they seem to have only one full-time psychiatrist on staff who also acts as the administrative chief (of an almost invisible administration).

Perhaps Hannibal is really a dystopian satire about a government that actually is small enough to drown in your bathtub, forced to use its ever-diminishing resources to deal with a legion of affluent sociopaths who finally feel untouchable enough to act on their darkest desires.
posted by kewb at 5:32 AM on April 7, 2014 [11 favorites]

What if he does frame alana, hmmm, i wonder
posted by tel3path at 5:58 AM on April 7, 2014

...what if he DOES though

"Hannibal, alana says she was with you all night, but is there any possibility she slipped you a sedative?"

"OMG Alana had the means and the opportunity to do every one of these murders! She even had access to will's house so could have tied the fly ties! Not sure how she got an ear down his throat, but we never worried about that one before!"

I wonder... Is Cassie Boyle left out because that's the only one that couldn't logistically be attributed to Alana? ISTM Marissa Schuur couldn't either... Unless... Yes, alana was in the vicinity for Marissa Schuur too!

The bitch it was her all along! OMG Alana, don't worry, we'll get you the best care...

Yes, Alana took Will to Dr Sutcliffe and that's how she spotted the encephalitis so quickly! And offed him and Georgia Madchen! Alana offed Abigail Hobbs! Onoz! The reign of terror!!!!!!1!!!

And she shoved her rival down a well 5 years ago because she is such a mean girl! And then killed this guy and practically signed it "Bloom"!

Poor Hannibal, seduced by such a dangerous woman! Thank god he is safe from her clutches now!!!

And don't worry Alana, we know it's not your fault, you're just crazee because of your wacky family trauma that you suffered. We'll get you the best care. The BEST.
posted by tel3path at 6:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

(It was a lotus leaf, by the way).
posted by h00py at 6:53 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is a recent activity entry.

I wonder if the reason Miriam didn't say anything when she saw Jack was for drama's sake, for frugality's sake (maybe a speaking role was more expensive than just a visual appearance), or something more sinister. Hannibal does enjoy serving tongue.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:41 AM on April 7, 2014

the ..Korean? preview has Miram talking.

Dear god I'm watching out of country previews what is wrong with me.
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 AM on April 7, 2014

You know what, I think judging from the "morning after" scene Hannibal and Alana didn't have sex at all. I think they shook hands.
posted by tel3path at 7:57 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

Miriam has already spoken on screen in the episode where we flashed back to her discovery of the Wound Man print. I suspect her silence here was just dramatic.
posted by localroger at 7:58 AM on April 7, 2014

Right, but if they can get her into one episode without speaking, they might be able to pay less for that.
posted by tel3path at 7:59 AM on April 7, 2014

direct link for the most recent Feeding Hannibal post

I am continuously surprised how last-second and changeable this show's production is. I know shoots can be chaotic and change rapidly but it seems like Hannibal verges on improv from time to time (or maybe I've just only been near really tightly-run ships, maybe being this flexible makes it cheaper? IDK)
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

(although apparently the real thing keeping the costs down are ..people took pay cuts, small cast, limited locations, and scenes that are mostly two people talking. Having to shoot around that must lead to the visual inventiveness we all love.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 AM on April 7, 2014

Since we still have half a season left, and since Hannibal basically gave Jack the address where he found Miriam, I have to assume she's NOT going to be like "yeah Hannibal definitely did it, go arrest him." She's gonna lie. Because Hannibal is a manipulative murderwizard.

Also, I sincerely doubt Hannibal has been drugging Alana to make her like him more, mostly because in that scene where he was butchering a heart and talking about how he was composing a new piece of music, I was like "Can I date Hannibal Lecter please?" and I KNOW HE'S A CANNIBAL. No drugs required.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:54 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]

A Matter Of Taste Podcast is updated to episode five
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 AM on April 7, 2014

I am continuously surprised how last-second and changeable this show's production is. I know shoots can be chaotic and change rapidly but it seems like Hannibal verges on improv from time to time (or maybe I've just only been near really tightly-run ships, maybe being this flexible makes it cheaper? IDK)

We know from interviews that they threw out a LOT of writing last season when dailies started to come in because Fuller felt that what was actually being shot was at a level the scripts weren't up to. Rewatching the first season with that in mind, you can kind of see it, especially in the early to middle bits of the season.

I don't get that vibe so far in S2. Not quite. This season is the show very forcefully being itself in a way I find entirely delightful (of course). But that doesn't mean there isn't... wiggle room. As sure as things get, Fuller's always clearly been the "go with the best idea available even if it's a pain in the ass" sort of showrunner. I think he cultivates that occasional bit of improv even as most things are quite meticulous. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
posted by sparkletone at 10:22 AM on April 7, 2014

Also, I sincerely doubt Hannibal has been drugging Alana to make her like him more, mostly because in that scene where he was butchering a heart and talking about how he was composing a new piece of music, I was like "Can I date Hannibal Lecter please?" and I KNOW HE'S A CANNIBAL. No drugs required.

I think on a different show (perhaps a cable version?) this would definitely be something that ... if not explicit is at least in the backs of the minds of the people making the show. But as is, I think the whole "ALANA DRUKQS!" line of thinking is... wild straw-grasping. Part of the whole point of what makes Hannibloom so goddam awful on this show as presented is her complicity in it. I say this as someone who doesn't share tel3path and others' dislike for the character much at all. I don't think she's stupid, I don't think in context that she's massively naive or blind. She's making very, very wrong decisions based on incomplete information. But she's still the one making those decisions and they are minus Hannibal being a manipulative asshole (in the social not pharmaceutical sense) her wrong decisions.

If you take away Alana's agency, you ruin what makes this particular plotline so poignant and affecting.
posted by sparkletone at 10:28 AM on April 7, 2014 [9 favorites]

Feeding Hannibal post

Confirms the special beer is people. Confirms Alana's wine was doped. Notes "whatever this is" was pigeon/dove legs.

This is great stuff: "I have to order the special 'people-sized cuts' from the butcher in the morning before he cuts all the pork sides out into normal roasts and chops."
posted by mountmccabe at 10:31 AM on April 7, 2014

We have everything we need to make our own cannibal feast!
posted by The Whelk at 10:50 AM on April 7, 2014

We know from interviews that they threw out a LOT of writing last season when dailies started to come in because Fuller felt that what was actually being shot was at a level the scripts weren't up to. Rewatching the first season with that in mind, you can kind of see it, especially in the early to middle bits of the season.

What do you mean? Do you mean "level" as in quality or "level" as in ahead of the script or...? If it's "level" as in quality, do you mean that the shooting was too artistic for the script or vice versa (or something entirely different)?
posted by rue72 at 11:11 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

you can TOTALLY see it do a real pivot heel turn around Episode 4-5. I even told Total Newb Viewer that the first four where not totally representatibve of where it was going. The Murder Of The Week got shot the fuck down until we're left with Totem guy who gets like, one scene and then back to The Empath And Cannibal Mind Game Hour.

Even when they had Murderwizards of the week they tend to stick around a lot more or be casually brushed aside in a scene.
posted by The Whelk at 11:15 AM on April 7, 2014

(Bone Arena Of My Skull mentions the possibility that Miram will finger Chilton as the Ripper and while I don't think it's likely it did make me cackle like a madman.)

(I mean I could almost see her fingering Gideon, cause he's presumably dead so he could be forever "on the loose" but Hannibal's ego is getting bigger by the day and he's made so many comments and noise about getting respect/attribution for his work ..so it's not wasted. Framing Gideon would be eating so much humble pie for Hanni.)
posted by The Whelk at 11:19 AM on April 7, 2014

I really think we were meant to notice the hair- and lip-print-gathering from Alana. He has to have a purpose for that.

1) kill Alana, frame Will (or whoever)
2) frame Alana
3) ...profit? Haven't thought of what else he might do with the hair and lip-print samples...
posted by tel3path at 11:23 AM on April 7, 2014

although apparently the real thing keeping the costs down are ..people took pay cuts, small cast, limited locations, and scenes that are mostly two people talking. Having to shoot around that must lead to the visual inventiveness we all love.

Though some of those savings must go towards food and visual effects?

I'm mostly curious how you explain this to the butcher. "Hi, I need 16 pork loins. I'd like them to look as close to human thighs as possible."
posted by jeather at 11:33 AM on April 7, 2014

(Bone Arena Of My Skull mentions the possibility that Miram will finger Chilton as the Ripper and while I don't think it's likely it did make me cackle like a madman.)

I don't think that Chilton has the physical strength. Gideon was paralyzed (by the guards) before he was taken by the Ripper, and I don't think that Chilton would be able to move that amount of weight. I don't know that he would have been able to string that hospital guard up to the ceiling, or string the judge up in the courtroom, either. Stringing the victims up is maybe easier than lifting Gideon, because Chilton could create a pulley, but setting up a pulley and hoisting them would still require a lot of strength.

Also, wasn't Chilton completely out of commission during a period when the Ripper was active? Not that long after the Ripper begins killing again, they went to see Gideon as the supposed Ripper, and almost right after, Gideon gets out and disembowels Chilton.

Also, can I just say that I read BONE AREA OF MY SKULL MENTIONS THE POSSIBILITY THAT MARIAM WILL FINGER CHILTON and sat there nonplussed and confused for a minute.

you can TOTALLY see it do a real pivot heel turn around Episode 4-5. I even told Total Newb Viewer that the first four where not totally representatibve of where it was going. The Murder Of The Week got shot the fuck down until we're left with Totem guy who gets like, one scene and then back to The Empath And Cannibal Mind Game Hour.

Coef (1.04, the one they pulled) was still very killer-of-the-week, but that episode is like a kick in the stomach. I guess they probably did decide to go in a different direction, maybe a less dark direction in some ways?
posted by rue72 at 11:36 AM on April 7, 2014

...you know, Hannibal collects Alana's DNA samples BEFORE the fly ties are found.

Ya know?

Just sayin'.

There seems to be one unidentified sample, though, so it's possible that the unidentified fishing fly is a call forward to when Hannibal eventually gets around to murdering Alana (say in 6 or 7 weeks).
posted by tel3path at 11:40 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

you can TOTALLY see it do a real pivot heel turn around Episode 4-5

I always tell people this when I'm trying to get them to watch it. Like, it quit being a crime procedural with weird artsy trappings and became a weird artsy show with crime procedural trappings. And I love it.

I didn't think he was gathering Alana's DNA, I thought he was disposing of the evidence that he drugged her. Taking the glass away was just a visual thing to show "oh, he drugged her wine."
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

On another note, may I say: I haven't been this Into A Show since Buffy. And that was a WHILE ago.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:44 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm starting to wonder if anybody EXCEPT Hannibal is going to survive this season. Like I don't even put my money on Will any more.
posted by tel3path at 11:46 AM on April 7, 2014

I always tell people this when I'm trying to get them to watch it. Like, it quit being a crime procedural with weird artsy trappings and became a weird artsy show with crime procedural trappings. And I love it.

ah that's a great way to put it, the shift in perspective to put all the crazy blood-soaked opera in front and the crime-procedural just kinda there in the back
posted by The Whelk at 11:51 AM on April 7, 2014

I didn't think he was gathering Alana's DNA, I thought he was disposing of the evidence that he drugged her. Taking the glass away was just a visual thing to show "oh, he drugged her wine."

Why would he take her hair, though? I think that's got to be for some kind of lure that he's going to use to taunt Will or otherwise screw with someone. It's dumb evidence to plant, because it would look so obviously planted (totally clean crime scene except for a few long dark hairs from Alana's head? I don't know, that just seems so...half-assed?). If he were going to kill her, he wouldn't need to take hair from her while she's still alive, though. So I think the mechanism-of-taunting will make it seem like Alana is dead or hurt but she won't be (or won't be *especially* hurt).
posted by rue72 at 11:57 AM on April 7, 2014

When did he take her hair? I have no memory of that.

1. Gideon clearly deliberately goads the orderlies into attacking him. Why?

I don't think I saw anyone answer this, but I think I know why. In the opening conversation between Gideon and Will, Will basically tells him "you're dead. You're too close now, and Hannibal WILL kill you." I think Gideon believes him, and thinks a quick brutal beating death is superior to drawn-out Ripper torture. So he tries to commit suicide by guard.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:59 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

When did he take her hair? I have no memory of that.

Oops you're totally correct. I think someone said that he had, and I never have memory for plot details like that so I figured it was true. But I just went back and watched the scene to double check, right when he's checking to see if she's drugged, and you're right, he doesn't. I think "taking the hair" was probably a misread of when he pulls the blanket over her or something.
posted by rue72 at 12:09 PM on April 7, 2014

I think Gideon believes him, and thinks a quick brutal beating death is superior to drawn-out Ripper torture. So he tries to commit suicide by guard.

But instead he gets a very elegant last meal.
posted by jeather at 12:09 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yum.
posted by Pendragon at 12:25 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

At this point I assume everybody on the show but Hannibal is going to die and then they'll introduce all these new characters like Bill Ram, Bridget Krantz, John Lawcord, Alice Moon, Franescia Founds, and, and Dr. Hendrick Milton.
posted by The Whelk at 12:57 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

What do you mean? Do you mean "level" as in quality or "level" as in ahead of the script or...? If it's "level" as in quality, do you mean that the shooting was too artistic for the script or vice versa (or something entirely different)

Level of quality some, but also more than that. He talks about it here but it's also been mentioned in a lot of other S1 interviews. They were a direct-to-series order, and Fuller felt very, very, very strongly that what they had written for the show wasn't a good fit for what they were seeing on film when they started seeing that.
posted by sparkletone at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

But as is, I think the whole "ALANA DRUKQS!" line of thinking is... wild straw-grasping. Part of the whole point of what makes Hannibloom so goddam awful on this show as presented is her complicity in it. I say this as someone who doesn't share tel3path and others' dislike for the character much at all. I don't think she's stupid, I don't think in context that she's massively naive or blind. She's making very, very wrong decisions based on incomplete information. But she's still the one making those decisions and they are minus Hannibal being a manipulative asshole (in the social not pharmaceutical sense) her wrong decisions.

I think the bigger problem is that the show has not handled the Alana Bloom character all that well. She's set up in the early episodes of Season 1 as the compassionate presence among the characters, the one person who consistently tries to do what's right. Unfortunately, more than any other character, she ends up being shoved to the side by the Hannibal-Graham stuff in that season, which means that we don't get much development for her except as Will's friend who thinks he's fragile and continually (and by the end, half-rightly) assumes that Will's agency is defective in some way.

What we do get feels very contradictory. She sees Hannibal do something undeniably unethical early on with Abigail, but aside from a brief angry confrontation, she vanishes from the parts of the narrative around Abigail really quickly after that; I don't recall even seeing her talk to Abigail again, it's all Will and Abby or Hannibal and Abby…and Abby's supposed to be *Alana's* patient! No, instead she's Will's mostly absent friend, then a possible love interest for Will and/or Hannibal, and for a pair of episodes she's Gideon's ex-shrink.

The show can't really find a consistent professional or personal role for her to fill, because the focus shifts entirely to stuff like the Hannigram "Bromance" or to the Will-Jack conflict or to Hannibal manipulating Jack. Even the role of "Will's steadfast female ally" is given to Beverly Katz to set up her death, which removes Alana's original role. So from a plot standpoint, there's a really odd inconsistency there, and from a meta standpoint the character is being poorly served by the writers.

In season 2, though, she does get a consistent role: the main character most convinced of Will Graham's guilt. Unfortunately, this means that pretty much everything she does or says is built on two principles the audience is primed to reject at that point: 1) that Will's agency is defective in some way, when of course -- dramatic irony! -- he's finally recovered his agency; and 2) that Hannibal is the most trustworthy person at the FBI.

While this second point makes sense, given that Alana is his old friend, that she's seen what Jack Crawford can be, and that she's convinced Will is crazy…it also makes her the character who's forever behind the plot, apparently unable to notice that Jack is taking responsibility instead of bullying everyone these days, that Will is no longer having episodes (which, granted, *everyone* magically failed to notice for most of S1), and so forth. Having been an afterthought for the writers in season 1, she's now out of the loop within the plot.

In short, she's the character whose knowledge and suspicions are the farthest from those of the audience and the protagonist, and worse, she's become the one character who actively covers for Hannibal at a point where the show has gotten nearly all viewers to hate him. This makes her very hard to like for any viewer who's not working really hard to see things from the utterly mistaken, thoroughly manipulated perspective of a rather underdeveloped side character who previously dropped out of the central narrative to little apparent impact.

Even if Hannibal's not drugging Alana, she's still a trained psychiatrist who's known him longer than any other character and yet can't see through him even a bit, even after he utterly undermines her as a professional and as a person and she calls him out on it. And when virtually the entire remaining main cast is moving towards believing Will and seeing through Hannibal, this creates some pretty ugly implications regarding a character that the first few episodes set up as a unique blend of intelligence and compassion.

If Alana is doing all of this with free agency, it creates the rather ugly implication that a drugged, encephalitic Will Graham is *still* sharper and more open to possibilities than Alana Bloom on her best day. And on a show that's already used a female character as collateral damage by having her grab the Idiot Ball, I think it's a really bad idea to turn Alana into that old horror standby, the person who refuses to listen when everyone else insists there really is a monster. I'd much rather see them find some way to give her back some of her original role in the series.
posted by kewb at 1:13 PM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]

If Alana is doing all of this with free agency, it creates the rather ugly implication that a drugged, encephalitic Will Graham is *still* sharper and more open to possibilities than Alana Bloom on her best day.

You're not wrong. I'd be criticizing this more sharply, but I want to see how the rest of the season plays out. We know from a trailer we are going to get her to a place where she's pointing a gun at post-fight Hannibal, how we get there matters a great deal. If at the fade to black on S2, this is still the overriding thing with her, that's a big, definite flaw in the show this season imo.
posted by sparkletone at 1:20 PM on April 7, 2014

I'm pretty close with your thoughts, kewb. I think Alana was definitely set up in a certain way but then sidelined in a way that made her character a little incoherent. I think I've mentioned a quote by Fuller that said something like he could be more efficient because CD was so good in the role, projecting a warm maternal friendship, that he could cut back her role - it's possible he trimmed it too far back and we lost something.

There's no desire to figure out what in Jack's childhood that has made him, the head of a profiling unit, so blind to Hannibal's machinations. Is it just that his tendency to bull ahead makes him easily led?

Also, let me just say I feel weird about the whole "pretty princess" epithet that's been placed on Alana. Is there any in-show stuff that I missed that bolsters that?
posted by PussKillian at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, well, the way I see it the show is and always has been The System vs The Scapegoat, with the BAU as a dysfunctional family projecting all its failings onto one person.

From that point of view, Jack and Alana are both part of the system, so if Jack starts moving towards Will, Alana has to move away.

To me, the character makes perfect sense if she's seen as part of a system (who in turn is the product of another system like the "Ordinary People" family that echolalia67 described).

I also think, given the references to Flannery O'Connor and "A Good Man Is Hard To Find" in the early scenes, that Alana's character was never intended to have a positive effect on the narrative, despite her outwardly good intentions.

However, we shall see. Like I said I think that her switching to blue clothing signifies taking the blue pill (though I'm not sure of that interpretation) and by the time we get to the confrontation in the preview, she's wearing red again, which I am no longer sure signifies alignment with Hannibal but may signify the "red pill".
posted by tel3path at 1:32 PM on April 7, 2014

Mildly spoilery by definition, but oh man, so many thought-provoking little snippets in this new trailer for one of the international networks.
posted by sparkletone at 1:39 PM on April 7, 2014

I think Alana was definitely set up in a certain way but then sidelined in a way that made her character a little incoherent.

Yes, I think it's a huge problem for the character that she doesn't have her own storyline. It means that she only gets to function as an antagonist in other characters' storylines as they push their own stories forward. That makes her pretty scattered at best, and frustrating at worst because we're only seeing her in the context of her holding other stories back.

I don't honestly know why she wasn't given a storyline because it wouldn't have necessarily taken up more time; Bella has a very strong story, and she's been in relatively few episodes or scenes.

There's no desire to figure out what in Jack's childhood that has made him, the head of a profiling unit, so blind to Hannibal's machinations. Is it just that his tendency to bull ahead makes him easily led?

That's definitely how I see Hannibal manipulating Jack, as basically feeding into his appetites, flattering him, making him feel like the big boss, etc. We've also seen Hannibal "work" Jack, and win him over and win him back over again and again, like people have brought up earlier, so it's easier to see the mechanics of Hannibal lulling Jack into feeling comfortable in a certain kind of relationship with him, and also seeing what Jack cares about or what effects Jack.

With Alana, she seems to start from a place of being loyal to Hannibal and then just digs in her heels deeper and deeper without Hannibal really having to do anything much to make that happen. We don't get to see him convincing her to believe in him and grow close to him, because she's already convinced -- which makes sense in terms of the timeline, but that makes it much harder to understand their relationship, I think. Even though she can't know about it, watching Hannibal just knock her out to get on with things also underlines how tertiary she is to the "real" plot (as in, the through-line plot of GJH/Abigail), and she's even more tertiary in the other plots (in Will's, she's most conspicuous by her absence, in that she doesn't want to have a relationship with him so she keeps her distance) and she doesn't have a storyline of her own in which *she* gets explored. I think she's a much more difficult character to piece together, because there's no real in-show space/storyline that's about *her.*

She filled a romantic role in Will's storyline last season and is filling a romantic role in Hannibal's storyline this season, and continues not to have her own storyline; I think that she's gotten delegated somehow to the Romantic Subplot Ghetto, and that's an especially tough place to be on a relatively sexless show about serial killers. If they give her her own storyline I think she could be a fascinating character, but she hasn't been given one and so we're basically left grasping at straws trying to figure out who she is or why/how she's ended up where she is.
posted by rue72 at 1:47 PM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]

I can understand all these criticisms, but I'm waiting to see how she reacts to Will's innocence, and also how she will have to reconcile that innocence with his attempt to have Hannibal killed. It's going to floor her, and hopefully also give her something to do (or at least a reason to have a lot more scenes).

Maybe she'll be the one to save Jack from the Neck Stabbing Fight, in the end.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:59 PM on April 7, 2014

I had this dream once where I was in a hospital diagnosed with a degenerative brain disease. And I dreamed that I heard someone saying what my diagnosis was. And I couldn't say anything back. Not because I couldn't speak, but because I had entered the realm of not being heard any more. I knew that I'd been changed from someone who speaks, into someone who is spoken about. That my brief window of agency, in life, had just been closed.

I guess that's what fills me with such rage about Alana. I've never been in such a grievous situation as that, or as Will has (thank God) but relatives have, and the way it feels to be yelled at when trying to advocate them getting even the bare minimum of care. Or the way it feels to be yelled at when trying to get myself the bare minimum of care when I've needed it.

The most frustrating person of all is the Wonderful Person who doesn't help, and may be making things worse, but in the kindest possible way. That is what makes me so enraged with Alana. Jack too, but also Alana because of the times I've been given a display of support for which I am to be grateful and beholden, which at the same time actually denies the/a main point of the support from my point of view.

And then as an Aspie I've been in situations that I found so humiliating and been told by everyone else "wow, Humiliator must be such a wonderful person!" As in, Alana hugging Will after telling him, very nicely, that he's undateable, but stay in her back pocket in case she ever gets desperate, k? And he hugs her back because that is what he's learned he deserves.

And you just never really quite see this kind of conflict portrayed on television in such a... mimetic way?

I guess if you're mainly focussed on sexism, being angry with Alana is more problematic than if you think the primary issue is ableism. I mean, I'm still a woman and all... It's not like I'm trying to be an anti-feminist here or anything, God forbid. But at the same time I can't imagine that the phenomenon I describe is unrecognisable to most people here, surely most of us have been through stuff like that in one form or another. So maybe I'm just taking it all the wrong way.
posted by tel3path at 2:04 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

CHILTON SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING TO OR FROM ANYTHING EXCEPT MAYBE A SALE ON WOOLEN BROWN BLAZERS
posted by The Whelk at 2:28 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

A SALE ON WOOLLEN BROWN BLAZERS THAT GETS FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY AS HE RUNS
posted by tel3path at 2:29 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

DEEP INTO THE WOODS GO THE VINTAGE TWEEDS
posted by The Whelk at 2:29 PM on April 7, 2014

THEIR THREAD COUNT BEGINS TO THICKEN FOR THE COMING WINTER
posted by tel3path at 2:30 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder if the ...rather vehement reaction I've seen to Alana all over the Internet is due to something I've called the Betty Draper Effect ( not really fair, zbetty has had way more time to be developed, but hear me out.) Betty is a kind of shitty, peroid-accurate suburban parent in a way that's super common in real life but very rarely gets big, mainstream depiction, so the vitriol directed at her is outsized compared to her actions. Alana's behavior seems to have hit a nerve, hiw can she be so careless, he can see not see what's in front of her, why doesn't she BELIVE Will, etc? I'm sympathetic toward her cause, in the rough outline I can see myself doing the same thing, not wanting to deal with it anymore, attaching to the strongest, most stable seeming person, and that is kind of terrifying and gets under my skin ...so I keep looking for reasons that would excuse her/mine behavior while at the same time making sure she's seen as behaving totally badly and not like in any way Zi would ( no siree!))
posted by The Whelk at 2:35 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

And in unrelated news there's a lot of shirtless Dancy in Filler's latest tweet.
posted by The Whelk at 2:54 PM on April 7, 2014

And in unrelated news there's a lot of shirtless Dancy in Fuller's latest tweet.

And not the sexy kind, unless you like 'em blood-spattered and horrified.
posted by sparkletone at 2:57 PM on April 7, 2014

That makes a lot of sense to me, Whelk. I can see how if she's seen as a representation of the audience/relatively normal, stable humanity and then starts making horrible life decisions, the audience may react in an outsized way too. Like I said, I was kind of attached to Alana from the beginning and probably have some of the same fears you describe, plus I bought in to what I thought was the character being laid out and then she just got sidelined a bit and then maybe she's just there to be another way to wound Will?

If she's going to be the character that's in the show to be an example of how blind trust or not paying enough attention may land you in bed with the devil himself, I can roll with that - but I don't think the foundations were necessarily there. The Flannery O'Conner character note - well, perhaps, but it's such a flyaway allusion that I don't think got followed up on at all. Or if it did, I overlooked them in another morass of cannibal puns.
posted by PussKillian at 3:01 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

And not the sexy kind, unless you like 'em blood-spattered and horrified

So the sexy kind?

yeah PussKillian, I think Will and Alana are the most easily acceptable audience identification characters cause they are the most "normal" compared to everyone else and we don't want to see people we relate to with making bad, horrible choices. ( we would never do that! We would totally see through all that charm! We wouldn't go upstairs or go investigate a spooky noise!)
posted by The Whelk at 3:07 PM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]

Look, I think that Alana has clearly fallen down on the job at several points along the way.

1. As rue72 pointed out, the day she twice observes Will having auditory hallucinations, which are a new symptom, but doesn't report this observation to Hannibal. (I'm assured that this failure to report would give Will grounds for official complaint.) Instead, she treats the whole situation like a Boyfriend Assessment Test and says nothing more about it until Will ends up in an orange jumpsuit, whereupon she diagnoses him in 2 seconds. Not that saying anything to Hannibal would have helped in the moment, but it would have created a paper trail of symptoms and also spoken more highly of Alana's motives than what she actually did.

2. Speaking of which, Hannibal produces a correct clock-face test that he claims Will passed a few weeks earlier. But then, Will gets a firm diagnosis, and then in S2 it turns out that Sutcliffe's diagnostic tests have been uncovered, which means that Will couldn't have passed the clock-face test in the timeframe Hannibal claims. We now have one test from Hannibal versus three independent tests from other sources, and Hannibal's is the easiest to fake, which means she should be wondering where this discrepancy came from, ESPECIALLY in light of point 1. But she never questions this.

3. Nor does she ever question how Will ended up getting diagnosed by Sutcliffe but nobody else seemed to know about it. Was he looking for a second opinion without telling Hannibal? Does that imply Hannibal's treatment was inadequate? Or did Hannibal refer him, in which case why didn't he mention it himself?

4. And why do you trust Hannibal after he took your teenage-girl patient home without your permission? I know you yelled at him, but then it was over and you went right back to trusting him, and forgiveness is divine, but forgiveness and trust aren't quite the same.

5. In common with the rest of the BAU, Alana fails to acknowledge that there is exactly one other person who could have committed all the murders Will is accused of, and indeed one person who could have planted evidence down his throat. And who has been tagging along with the BAU for quite a while now and knows what sort of evidence they look for. This is a fact, even if that one other person is a friend and a mentor and you go back a long way with him. NOBODY in the BAU is acknowledging this, it's not just Alana, but she sure is the one yelling "I trust Hannibal!" the loudest.

6. You know, if you're in jail, having a murderous orderly in charge of you is a problem, but realistically Will had nobody that he could go to through legitimate channels. If he'd told Chilton he would have been called delusional, and if he'd told Alana or Jack it would also have only confirmed he was delusional. I'm not exactly saying they should ignore the rather large context of his attack on Hannibal, but nobody (as Gideon pointed out) is noticing that a major purpose of it was to smoke the orderly/the Admirer out, and that if Will hadn't taken some action (and directed it at someone they actually care about) then he would probably have turned up dead not long after, and everybody would have shed a tear for about five minutes and shrugged, "Oh well, a tragic end to a tragic life, Will was just one of those lost souls". And Alana was REALLY quick to notice when Will was CAUSING trouble, but if she'd been half as attentive to the fact that he was IN trouble it might not have come to this. Now it's reached a point where she REALLY can't afford to look at the bigger picture, and she has a great excuse not to, so she retreats into her fantasies.
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well yeah the fact that she seems kinda bad at her job is also part of the point.
posted by The Whelk at 3:12 PM on April 7, 2014

But it's also that she's been built up to us - including by Fuller - as The Brilliant Alana Bloom, The Wonderful Alana Bloom, The Kind Alana Bloom, The Best Human. But then nothing good seems to come of it, and when you look at her actions, it doesn't really withstand scrutiny.

I think that this is maybe meant to be a parallel to Hannibal. The Great Hannibal, The Suave Hannibal, The Ace Rimmer Of Baltimore. And he does look great on the surface, but if you look too closely he doesn't seem to be all that great at his job either...? And then Alana gets mad and yells "I trust Hannibal!" And then people like me start peering at her actual behaviour and going "heeey this is kinda questionable" and Alana's fans get really mad and start yelling "I trust Alana!"

See what I mean? I feel like we're being taught an object lesson, perhaps.
posted by tel3path at 3:18 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ooh, I've seen it! Will gets abducted by Aliens?

I hope Bedelia intervenes, gives him some TLC, and cheers him up.

You know, Cheers Him Up.

Willelia 5eva

(I think my ship is even smaller than Preller)
posted by tel3path at 3:21 PM on April 7, 2014

I thought the smallest was Chilibal, cause Preller is a popular crack ship...

Oh god no one link to Chilton/Hannibal fics I need to maintain my sanity.

( I refuse to acknowledge the existence of Chilly Willy, point blank.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:27 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, well, on current evidence I think Chilly Willy is a much smaller ship than my preferred one. NOBODY BUT ME is shipping Willelia.
posted by tel3path at 3:28 PM on April 7, 2014

But think of the beautiful locations they could be in! All the fancy of Hannigraham , none of the morally confusing meals or recreational serial killing.
posted by The Whelk at 3:29 PM on April 7, 2014

My issue, I guess, is that I don't know why Alana *should* be a wonderful person? Wouldn't her being an uncomplicated, warm, compassionate person be kind of be...incongruous within the world of the show, where the moral spectrum seems to range from "cannibalistic [and artistic!] serial killer" to "callous but not unkind investigator"? Within that context, how and why should Alana be the Good Fairy, why wouldn't she be fallible and dangerous but ~probably~ not evil, like all the others? I think it would be better for the character and she would fit into the show better if she *were* at least a bit dangerous.

She doesn't have to be the show's moral center or its heart or some prize that goes to The Most Appropriate Killer or a sockpuppet that gets tossed around from romantic subplot to romantic subplot to keep her onscreen. I think that she hasn't been given a real role and hasn't been given a real character and so she's basically just a blank slate. I'd prefer if that slate weren't filled in with a big happy face or a Strong Female Character archetype or something. I'd prefer if she were a jackass or a bit slimy or her actions weren't all that clear-cut or necessarily very nice and that she *did* do something dangerous and personal and self-interested for a change. That would only put her on par with the other characters, which would probably mean she was becoming a real character herself, in a way that actually fits into the world of the show. So I personally do a bit of fanwanking to make her into the character I wish she were, since there isn't really a character *there* as of now, I don't think.

Maybe a lot of people are filling in the blanks in a whole lot of different ways; I don't think anything's especially sexist or pathological or nasty about it, though? What are people supposed to do except fill in the blanks with made-up fanwanking based on personal preferences, given that the show isn't filling in the blanks of who she is or what she wants or how she thinks, for us, through an actually storyline with her at the center, making choices?

So I guess that's my crack!ship, Alana/Choices.

Betty is a kind of shitty, peroid-accurate suburban parent in a way that's super common in real life but very rarely gets big, mainstream depiction, so the vitriol directed at her is outsized compared to her actions. Alana's behavior seems to have hit a nerve, hiw can she be so careless, he can see not see what's in front of her, why doesn't she BELIVE Will, etc? I'm sympathetic toward her cause, in the rough outline I can see myself doing the same thing, not wanting to deal with it anymore, attaching to the strongest, most stable seeming person, and that is kind of terrifying and gets under my skin ...so I keep looking for reasons that would excuse her/mine behavior while at the same time making sure she's seen as behaving totally badly and not like in any way Zi would ( no siree!))

Can you actually relate to either Betty or Alana? I like Betty a lot, I was watching Mad Men for her for a long time, but I don't think that she's actually all that relatable? I mean, she's gorgeous, she's got this gorgeous house, gorgeous kids, gorgeous husband, gorgeous car, she's a former model, etc etc etc. She's got it all. Isn't she more aspirational than relatable?

I think that what might be tough about Alana is that she's set up to be aspirational too, except that her life is sort of a nightmare version of conventional aspiration. She's a gorgeous doctor (who we never see practice, because even when she tries she gets undermined by Jack or Hannibal or she just misses things altogether), she's got all the men around falling at her feet (when they're not knocking her out or clinging to her because they're going insane), she's in the highest circles (of society, where people are being eaten, and the FBI, where people are being driven insane and picked off)...

Maybe both are too relatable and it actually causes a sort of self-loathing backlash? Or maybe both are sort of mirroring our aspirations and showing how hollow they are, and that's causing a self-loathing backlash? (Or is there even a backlash?)
posted by rue72 at 3:32 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

But look at how they seem to be turning Chilton around, into someone who seems to be beginning to produce good fruits.

Maybe Alana will do a 180 at the very last moment, explode forth from her cocoon like a beautiful butterfly with ammo belts all along the edges of her wings, and rain hell from above.

Or maybe her last act in this world will be to plant the seed of transformative grace in Hannibal's heart, such that every time he is about to chow down on a humanburger he will forevermore say "drat. I just can't bring myself to do it."

The story isn't over yet, and people sure do surprise us.

I mean they sure do.
posted by tel3path at 3:33 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm more spooked out by that vision of Will with the blooming tree in Hannibal's office.

Cause now that's he's out I'm worried just how far into the dark stag side Will is gonna have to go to Get Him.

And what he's gonna bring back.
posted by The Whelk at 3:42 PM on April 7, 2014

My favorite thing would be if Alana were having a professional crisis of the soul right now and started auditing as many classes at Hopkins Med as Jack would let her. She needs to do some professional enrichment, desperately.
posted by rue72 at 3:43 PM on April 7, 2014

And maybe some therapy, because she seems to have omitted that rather essential part of her training.

Unless Hannibal did her psychotherapy.

Which would explain EVERYTHING.
posted by tel3path at 3:47 PM on April 7, 2014

"hey Hannibal, I've been having some problems professionally recently, and I know therapists should really have a therapist to keep things in check, as a sounding board and I've been neglecting that, can you recommend someone?"

"Of course Alana, who are you looking for?"

"Someone who's used to other analysts, and with working with the FBI, hey how about Doctor Du Maurier?"

*internal cannibal screaming*
posted by The Whelk at 3:54 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

that vision of Will with the blooming tree in Hannibal's office.

Wait, was that a vision, or an actual blooming tree? I guess it's messing up the floor, so, a vision?

Also, tel3path mentioned it earlier: was that ear-down-the-stomach-tube thing a hallucination, or was that real?

Cause now that's he's out I'm worried just how far into the dark stag side Will is gonna have to go to Get Him.

How far could he go? Full on become Hannibal?
posted by rue72 at 4:02 PM on April 7, 2014

My personal feeling is that he's gonna go right up to the edge before being pulled back, either by himself or others, and it's gonna be awful.
posted by The Whelk at 4:05 PM on April 7, 2014

I guess one thing Hannibal could do, if he were up to it, would be to convince Will that Will is just doing a reconstruction of one of Hannibal's murders, while Will is actually carring out the murder/cannibalism himself.
posted by rue72 at 4:06 PM on April 7, 2014

Raul Esparza was as freaked out by the bee episode as the rest of us.
posted by sparkletone at 4:06 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yes, he really did vomit an ear, which was the main piece of evidence against him. And hannibal really did intubate him and put that ear down his throat.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

And then as an Aspie I've been in situations that I found so humiliating and been told by everyone else "wow, Humiliator must be such a wonderful person!" As in, Alana hugging Will after telling him, very nicely, that he's undateable, but stay in her back pocket in case she ever gets desperate, k? And he hugs her back because that is what he's learned he deserves.

You just touched on something that has been an undeniable pull to the show for me. I have a little boy on the very mild end of the autism spectrum and my own diagnoses put me somewhere in the venn diagram of co-morbid conditions. The way that the Will Graham character (and I'd argue Beverly Katz as well) is written is as close to an accurate representation of my son (and other ASD kids) is as anything I've ever seen - not a mumbling Rainman stereotype, not a quirky magical elf-child like Abed from Community but someone whose gentle nature and genuine empathy gets lost in other people's need to play "pin the pathology on the boy".

By the same measure, I've liked the Alana character because I've experienced those sorts of situations where my head, my heart, and my ladyboner cannot come to an agreement about how to proceed in a relationship. In fact, the more intense the attraction I felt, the more desperate I was to put some distance between me and the object of my ladyboner. A pull of attraction as intense as the one played out between Alana & Will in season 1 would make me feel exposed and vulnerable. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that I sabotaged every relationship that had that level of intensity because I was afraid that I'd be emotionally annihilated and left for dead (metaphorically speaking) by the person I was attracted to.

So as much as I understand your perspective on the Alana/Will relationship, I don't necessarily see it as Alana as deciding that Will just isn't quite up to snuff for boyfriend material but good enough to keep around as a backup plan. I see her as someone who wishes she could merely regard Will as an interesting case study. Despite her desire to have an empathic but comfortably distant relationship with him, she is drawn to him so strongly that she panics and deliberately muddies the waters as a way to protect herself. Still, she can't entirely quit him so she tries to shoehorn him into a ersatz friend/clinician-patient/colleague relationship.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:38 PM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]

Hey, I'm a one-woman Zellegram shipper. There are enough conflicts and childhood issues there to provide for some seriously vigorous grudge-fucking. At least three months worth of "why are you two walking so funny today" enquiries from Jimmy Price.
posted by echolalia67 at 4:48 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Rewatching the episode just now, during Gideon's final meal I thought.... God damn can I not wait for the scripts for this seasons to get posted (assuming they do put them up eventually like they did S1). I really want to see what that scene was like on the page.
posted by sparkletone at 5:00 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

And maybe some therapy, because she seems to have omitted that rather essential part of her training.

Unless Hannibal did her psychotherapy.

Which would explain EVERYTHING.

He was her mentor/clinical supervisor at John Hopkins. That would involve sessions where they review her work with patients and discuss any transference/countertransference issues that may have popped up. Even though he wouldn't be her therapist per se (people in the post-graduate, supervised clinical hours part of the process toward being psychotherapists are expected to be in therapy as part of their training), the discussions would be very personal and psychoanalytic in nature. He would probably encourage full disclosure of her personal issues, in the interest of developing a fruitful mentor-mentee relationship, of course.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:07 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

Zellegram

Freddie Lounds just rolls her eyes and goes " called it!"
posted by The Whelk at 5:16 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

OMG dying at the start of this.
posted by sparkletone at 5:28 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

There's also one with Hugh Dancy, and Mads.
posted by sparkletone at 5:30 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

A pull of attraction as intense as the one played out between Alana & Will in season 1 would make me feel exposed and vulnerable. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that I sabotaged every relationship that had that level of intensity because I was afraid that I'd be emotionally annihilated and left for dead (metaphorically speaking) by the person I was attracted to.

So as much as I understand your perspective on the Alana/Will relationship, I don't necessarily see it as Alana as deciding that Will just isn't quite up to snuff for boyfriend material but good enough to keep around as a backup plan. I see her as someone who wishes she could merely regard Will as an interesting case study. Despite her desire to have an empathic but comfortably distant relationship with him, she is drawn to him so strongly that she panics and deliberately muddies the waters as a way to protect herself. Still, she can't entirely quit him so she tries to shoehorn him into a ersatz friend/clinician-patient/colleague relationship.

That's really interesting, echolalia67, I hadn't thought of Alana's viewpoint that way before. Is that sort of like what you were saying earlier about (well, what I heard as, anyway) Alana being scared of being seen/known? If she equates being seen/known with being annihilated, and Will's life is built on an especial ability to get into people's heads and see/know them from the inside out, then I guess she would be propelled toward him by a death wish and repelled from him by survival instinct? That also makes more sense of her decision to get with Hannibal, the person least capable of emotional intimacy on the planet. It makes more sense of the timing of Hannibloom, too, since then of course she'd see his emotional distance as safety and she is definitely in a vulnerable/unsafe/scary position (and world) right now.

I think that also goes back to the mind/body dichotomy -- Alana is so afraid of psychic death at Will's hands, that she's willing to risk physical death at Hannibal's?

(I don't mean to define Alana just by who she chooses to be with, but like I said earlier, she makes *so few* choices in this show that there's just not much information to go on, and the choices she does make that aren't undermined/invalidated (like her choices w/r/t Abigail's care) are pretty much just in terms of choosing romantic partners).

I can get behind that read on Alana for sure. Actually, it makes me feel so crass, I completely assumed that Alana was just doing a "drive by" booty call on Will, he was too intense and it freaked her out, and then the next day she went to see him at work to back-burner him.
posted by rue72 at 5:46 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

Looks like Gillian Anderson's new American series is headed for the dustbin of history. And deservedly so; it is very bad. Maybe that means more time for Bedelia? The ratings for Hannibal are garbage but they were just as garbage last year and it got renewed then. It supposedly almost pays for itself based solely on overseas licensing or something.
posted by Justinian at 5:51 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

As they mentioned in the Matter of Taste podcast, we only want Bedelia to appear in flashback cause she's otherwise in her NEW ZEALAND VOLCANO ISLAND FORTRESS and thus cannot be killed or harmed by our mains.
posted by The Whelk at 5:53 PM on April 7, 2014

There needs to be one of those post mortems with Raul though... Hopefully there will be.
posted by sparkletone at 5:55 PM on April 7, 2014

Nevermind her new show - when are they going to make series 2 of "The Fall"? (it's a bbc serial rapist/killer show, and it's on netflix streaming, and it's good.) Then she can come be Bedilia some more.

The scenes of her eating with Hannibal were so wonderfully knife-edge of "what does she actually know". Gideon's single bite "My compliments to the chef" reminded me of Bedilia taking a single bite of the 'veal'.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:55 PM on April 7, 2014

It supposedly almost pays for itself based solely on overseas licensing or something

The show is much cheaper for NBC than it would otherwise be because of that, and it's a big enough hit in various places that I think it's unlikely the studio is going to kill it. It came up in this interview and some others. I remember him saying in one that when the show seemed on the bubble at NBC, he started getting calls from other networks.

I think the same "the only question is if it's on NBC" logic applies now just as it did then.
posted by sparkletone at 6:01 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

The scenes of her eating with Hannibal were so wonderfully knife-edge of "what does she actually know"

And she's only had one interaction with Jack and one with Will! I want to see her be all Ice Queen at Chilton.
posted by sparkletone at 6:03 PM on April 7, 2014

I feel like Chilton would just fall in love with her instantly. Hitchcock ice blonde with impeccable taste, perfect manners, and a bone dry wit? If he liked hanging out with Hannibal for all those reason imagine what it would be with someone who wasn't possibly going to murder you.
posted by The Whelk at 6:06 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

Although I may say that cause I have the slightest affinity for Chilton cause we have the same taste in blazers.
posted by The Whelk at 6:07 PM on April 7, 2014

The thought of Raul Esparza playing "helpless unrequited schoolboy crush" fills me with glee.
posted by sparkletone at 6:08 PM on April 7, 2014

Nevermind her new show - when are they going to make series 2 of "The Fall"? (it's a bbc serial rapist/killer show, and it's on netflix streaming, and it's good.)

It IS very good. I especially appreciated that they humanized the killer, added some emotional complexity, and avoided making a characature of him (that's how I remember that it anyway. Admittedly I was quite drunk.)
Series two started filming in March
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 6:19 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

I love this idea of Chilton puppy-dogging after Bedelia! "Bediltin", " Chiltelia"? I don't really think I understand how shipping works.

Although I may say that cause I have the slightest affinity for Chilton cause we have the same taste in blazers.

When I saw his brown plad blazer lit up by the adjacent window as he stopped on the stairs I was all "OMG...WANT!"
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 6:24 PM on April 7, 2014

I don't have the build to get away with his double breasted looks but I'm like 90% sure I own that browny, yellowy houndstooth number.
posted by The Whelk at 6:27 PM on April 7, 2014

Someone described one of our politicians (will he be the next minister of health?) as "[b]rilliant, charismatic, not camera shy and an admitted gourmet" and ALL I SAW was Hannibal, thanks guys.
posted by jeather at 7:03 PM on April 7, 2014

Raul Esparza was as freaked out by the bee episode as the rest of us yt .
posted by sparkletone at 4:06 PM on April 7 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

In the video clip, he mentions how the show references Stanley Kubrick and Alfred Hitchcock. I've caught the Kubrick references, but not the Hitchcock ones! I thought I knew Hitchock, as well.

What are they?
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:05 PM on April 7, 2014

If he's talking about the show in general then the Hitchcock reference is obvious: Will is wrongly accused and imprisoned. That was pretty much Hitchcock's favourite subject.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:13 PM on April 7, 2014

Oh - I thought it was more like stylistic references and symbols. Thanks.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:17 PM on April 7, 2014

Oh - I thought it was more like stylistic references and symbols. Thanks.

I don't think there's been anything as blatant/specific as, say, the red Shining bathroom from S1 when it comes to Hitchcock references, but I definitely feel it in there. The whole show's built out of a very Hitchcockian idea of suspense where we know a bunch of stuff that the protagonists don't and the makers of what we're watching use that to gleefully fuck with us. Bryan's specifically used the "bomb under the table" phrase in a number of interviews. And then there's something like the final shot in 2x04 with the slow move down and then the bullet coming up out of the floor is soooo a Hitchcock type of move when it comes to visuals.
posted by sparkletone at 7:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Plus the whole aesthetic veers 40s Hitchcockian noir thriller, the HATS the SHADOWS the COLORS

(utter fanfic aside, since Chilton seems to live in 1948 I wonder which period seduction mode he'd take, utterly pig-tail pulling "Don't you realize my contempt for you is a sign of love?" or more swoon-y old fashioned gestures that he hilariously fucked up?
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

(utter fanfic aside, since Chilton seems to live in 1948 I wonder which period seduction mode he'd take, utterly pig-tail pulling "Don't you realize my contempt for you is a sign of love?" or more swoon-y old fashioned gestures that he hilariously fucked up?

Swoon-y old fashioned gestures. Because think of the bitter little faces he would pull when they would inevitably fall flat.
posted by rue72 at 7:24 PM on April 7, 2014

Definitely the old-fashioned gestures, and oh my god he would make the BEST faces when stymied yet again.
posted by sparkletone at 7:28 PM on April 7, 2014

he leans in to try and light a cigarette and sets someone's scarf on fire.
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on April 7, 2014

You know what. Fuck whatever Raul's doing during the coming hiatus, someone needs to cast him as the lead in a period piece screwball romcom.
posted by sparkletone at 7:32 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

He has a very expressive face, he'd be great in a broad comedy. It's those eyes, very Buster Keaton.
posted by rue72 at 7:33 PM on April 7, 2014

Is that sort of like what you were saying earlier about (well, what I heard as, anyway) Alana being scared of being seen/known? If she equates being seen/known with being annihilated, and Will's life is built on an especial ability to get into people's heads and see/know them from the inside out, then I guess she would be propelled toward him by a death wish and repelled from him by survival instinct? That also makes more sense of her decision to get with Hannibal, the person least capable of emotional intimacy on the planet.

I also think it points to why Alana/Will's relationship would never work out. To Will, being seen and understood would be like surfacing from deep water to take a lung full of air. He's spent his whole life on the periphery of other people's connections to one another - mom was gone early on, dad was a nomadic blue-collar guy focused on keeping food on the table, Will was always the new kid at school. In Middle school he probably had to choose between always being a bully magnet or always being the guy no one remembers going to school with; he chose to be the latter. As an adult, he left the police because he was too reluctant to use deadly force against suspects (probably not too popular with his fellow cops, either). Somewhere in all of this someone noticed his unique gift and he became "known" for his spooky ability to think like a killer; still no one seems to want to actually know him. At this point is his life he's fine with it (not really) - he has a nice cozy house out in the country, rescuing and nurturing neglected dogs provides him with (some) emotional comfort and there's always fishing when he needs to get out of his mental fortress. But the loneliness never really goes away. He just wants someone to see past the socially awkward, prickly exterior. He wants people to see that's he more than "that spooky guy who can think like a murderer".

Alana, on the other hand does NOT want to be seen. She wants to have full control over what parts of her are revealed to the world; losing control means everything is exposed. No one will like what they see. Worse, what kind of weirdo would see the whole show and still like her? Better to find a pleasantly tepid relationship with a well-liked guy with whom she can have an adequately pleasurable sex life. Hannibal seems to be that guy.

I don't know about everyone else, but the bedroom scenes between Alana & Hannibal seem to be to sexual equivalent of toast, scrambled eggs and tea for breakfast - tasty & filling but not memorable enough to think back upon about an hour or two later. But it's a comfortable, safe relationship that looks perfect on paper. It is a temperature and humidity-controlled refuge from the intensity of the Willana ship. You know what else is temperature and humidity controlled? Animal enclosures at the zoo. Hannibal's pantry. But she's not going to let herself think about that.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:33 PM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]

You know what. Fuck whatever Raul's doing during the coming hiatus, someone needs to cast him as the lead in a period piece screwball romcom.

I have no idea why he's not the Coen Brothers' BESTEST FRIEND, they love screwball comdey! His face was made for "Oh dear bother you bought a literal jaguar when I meant a CAR jaguar" gags.
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

(I guess he'll just have to be content with being a broadway darling and widely considered to be the finest male interpretatior of Sonhiem or something)
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

the red Shining bathroom from S1

Also the green bathroom is season one with the organ harvester is also a Shining reference.

I thought it was a joke on the fact that Kubrick always puts pivotal scenes in bathrooms.
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

(Oh god, the Post-Mortem interview, is Scott Thompson wearing a BEE-stripped Rugby sweater? oh god )
posted by The Whelk at 8:03 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]

I will always be disoriented by how charming, casual and low-key Mads is in interviews when he plays utterly alien, focused crazy people.
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

I had no idea that Hannibal's accent isn't the same as Mad's. I just assumed that casting said, "It's a foreign accent."

"What kind?"

"Danish."

"GOOD ENOUGH, HIRE HIM!!"
posted by echolalia67 at 8:15 PM on April 7, 2014

This is where I show NORTHERN EUROPEAN LANGUAGE KNOWLEDGE but I live with someone who did their PH.D work in language in Copenhagen and Switzerland and pretty much INSTANTLY said "Oh that's a Lithuanian accent, and really thick that can't be how he actually talks cause any actor would've corrected that by now".
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

(unintended side effect of living with this man, I've gained a total Yorkshire accent on certain words and sound downright Highlands if I have to talk to his relatives)
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Alana, on the other hand does NOT want to be seen. She wants to have full control over what parts of her are revealed to the world; losing control means everything is exposed. No one will like what they see. Worse, what kind of weirdo would see the whole show and still like her? Better to find a pleasantly tepid relationship with a well-liked guy with whom she can have an adequately pleasurable sex life. Hannibal seems to be that guy.

I don't know that *she* wants full control, she's the one who thought the automaton defense was credible, and who turned to Hannibal when things turned too chaotic. I think she likes *things* to be under control, and that includes herself (or the "uncontrollable" parts of herself). An uncharitable reading would be that she likes plausible deniability, takes refuge in a childlike sense of "safety" (one without power, responsibility or control). I'm sure there is a more charitable reading but I don't know what it is?

Thinking about Alana/Will from Will's side, I figured he was pretty desperate to connect with somebody back when he started actively coming onto Alana, because he knew he was slipping and he needed somebody to hold onto. How I read it was, he was trying to hustle up some intimacy (and maybe help/loyalty) PDQ by pushing to sleep together or at least hook up somehow, and his desperation for that (because he was in a pretty dangerous situation) was why he was so insistent on making passes to Alana even after she'd clearly rejected him and he seemed too physically ill for it to make sense anyway. Basically, he was trying to use her as his life raft. Now I'm thinking, though, is that also too crass of a take?

I also wonder, now that things are more chaotic, and Alana has taken refuge in the strongest/coldest man she could find, is Will going to also look for somebody? If so, what kind of person would that be? Would he even be able to be with anybody for the foreseeable? Even the bare minimum of intimacy requires trust, and I would think that would be in short supply with him right now. But on the other hand, I would think that since his sense of safety and self has also got to be smashed into teeny tiny pieces at the moment, he would try to rush out and collect an ally, and to get her loyalty with sex, similarly to what he tried to do with Alana (again with the kind of crass take, though? I'm not trusting my take anymore, to be honest. I think it's too sex-driven, and these characters don't seem very sex-driven?). Anyway, I am most interested if he does the latter, especially since whoever would need him as much and in a way complimentary to how he would need her would have to have a story of her own going on.
posted by rue72 at 8:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

"He's the boss" "And not god?" "No Hannibal is God"
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on April 7, 2014

WHY IS FISHBURNE WEARING RIDER GLOVES
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

HUGH DANCY IS SO FANCY SO VERY FANCY FANCY DANCY
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on April 7, 2014

..and somehow comes ff as the some serious character (not actor)
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on April 7, 2014

I still want a Raul one!
posted by sparkletone at 8:48 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thinking about Alana/Will from Will's side, I figured he was pretty desperate to connect with somebody back when he started actively coming onto Alana, because he knew he was slipping and he needed somebody to hold onto.

I think that the mutual attraction has been there since at lease S1, ep2 when she steps into Abigail's hospital room with Will asleep on the couch. Actually, I think that Alana has had a crush on him for longer than that. The way she spoke about him to Jack when telling him that would not to do a profile of Will and anything scholarly could only be published posthumously seemed ... confrontational, even a bit possessive.

It's like she's saying "I will not waste time spent with Will doing your dirty work for him, and how dare you expect me to betray the confidences of that magnificently rumpled, misunderstood genius with the soul of a poet!" There was a little touch of "teenage schoolgirl crushing so hard" passion in her voice.

In that moment, when she offered Hannibal's name as a potential profiler, she inadvertently put Will at the mouth of the Lion's Den. This tragedy came into being in part because she wanted to have some sort of relationship with him that was somehow safely ensconced far away from the day-to-day horror, ugliness and heartbreak they both sift though every day for a living.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:59 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think that the mutual attraction has been there since at lease S1, ep2 when she steps into Abigail's hospital room with Will asleep on the couch. Actually, I think that Alana has had a crush on him for longer than that. The way she spoke about him to Jack when telling him that would not to do a profile of Will and anything scholarly could only be published posthumously seemed ... confrontational, even a bit possessive.

I think Will definitely had a crush on Alana. I actually think it lasted all the way up through the first episode of this season, when he was still trying to be basically truthful with people, and asked her to do that hypnosis on him. After that, though, when he started remembering more of what had been going on while he was sick, I think he started getting pretty disillusioned altogether, and definitely disillusioned with her (maybe for not helping him, or protecting him against Hannibal, or even noticing that he was so ill?). I think that's when he decided to run that test where he pretended to be a quivering mess of jell-o in front of both Hannibal and Alana -- I guess to see if Alana would help him, or take his side against Hannibal, or notice he was faking or at least that his change in behavior was unusual? I think that test was sort of a second chance, for Alana to actually help or reach out to or notice a change in a "sick"/"vulnerable" version of Will? Regardless of what exactly he was trying to test, though, she obviously failed, and I think at that point, he was done with her.

I'm not so sure about Alana having a real crush on Will. I think that she had a "thing" for him, even still likes and is at least somewhat attracted to him, etc, but I think she wrote him off as "undateable" long ago (when she decided to not be in a room alone with him maybe), and hasn't wavered much in her decision. Maybe she wavered a little or was at least tempted to be friends with or even hook up with him for a while there, and dropped by his house that time to see what would happen, but I think that she was sure the entire time and is still sure she wouldn't want him to actually be her boyfriend.

Basically, how I see their relationship is, what Will had on offer for Alana was a tiny (ego-stroking) torch burning for her, and what Alana had on offer for Will was a friendly helping hand. But I think that his crush and her helping hand were both pretty limited, and they're both pretty much used up and finished now.

To me, Alana treats Will like an acquaintance who she's stepping up for. Which is maybe what he is to her. Like if your neighbor is an old lady, you'll mow her lawn or pick up her groceries for her every week. But you're not going to, you know, take her into your home and give her sponge baths. I think that's basically how Alana is with Will -- she'll take the dogs, she'll testify if his lawyer wants, but she's not going to, you know, actually *be* with him. Which is fine, that's actually a smart decision on her part, I think (goodness knows the guy is intense, she wasn't kidding when she said if they got together it would be a Relationship-Capital-R), and it's great of her to do those favors, but...it's not exactly a love story for the ages. Also, unfairly or not, I think that Will was counting on and needed way more help than she was willing or able to give, so I think it was a pretty rude awakening when he realized how relatively limited she'd decided her involvement with him/his life was going to be, how limited their intimacy actually was and is going to be.
posted by rue72 at 11:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think a lot of people are upset with alana because a good female character is a strong female character and a strong female character is good at her job, right?

I think it's unusual to show a female character being as bad at her job as the men around her (*cough* Jack *cough*) and isn't that true equality? I guess i'm not making myself as clear as i want to.

But i see Alana's job as being primarily an upholder of the system, just as Jack's is. It's the Science team that are there to support but also antagonize that somewhat, and they are generally shown as being very good at their jobs, though they too show biases consistent with... You guessed it.

So if you go in thinking that a doctor's job is to treat you and a law officer's job is to find the culprit, you're going to be disappointed because these doctors' job is to treat you until that conflicts with their duty to uphold the system and the law officer's job is to look for the culprit until that conflicts with their duty to uphold the system. By subverting the system last week, will has finally gotten himself just enough help.

Meanwhile, and unnnoticed by Jack who thinks that he's the boss, Hannibal has insinuated himself as the head of the system and both jack's and alana's jobs, now, more than before, are to make sure hannibal stays in charge of the system. Neither of them fully understands this yet and this particular boss really enjoys a practical joke, which means that they're both going to serve his purpose by becoming really good at their jobs again, at least some of the time. He doesn't want to beat 'em with his hands tied behind his back.

Also, rue72, you kind of make it sound like alana was "just not that into" Will and i think she was, for whatever reason, and still is, but that she also regards him as the old lady neighbor she gets groceries for, because unfortunately for him the main way she keeps him at a safe distance is by seeing him as not-an-equal. I hear you, echolalia67, and i agree with your assessment of her motives but i hate the way she expresses it by making will an object of pity and contributing to the way he is pathologized, which I think is actively harmful to him. And again, the fact that she clearly was into him at a certain point makes the disappointment that much greater. People were saying alana was going to blaze in and bust him out and so on... But having him imprisoned is quite handy for her, because it solves the problem of her having the hots for him.

I guess i never thought of hannibal as the safer, blander choice up until now either. I think alana really does hero-worship and adore hannibal quite a lot. She then proceeds to "throw caution to the wind" and get into a relationship with him that's consistent with her relationship style, which is endless navel gazing Talking About The Relationship. Just as Will was giving her the sniveling pitiful version of himself earlier in S2 for other reasons (and rue72 i think he was already done with her at that point, because he had an insight that she is one of the ravens that feeds at hannibal's table), Hannibal has morphed into the bland passionless nonthreatening guy who talks about their relationship and even does so in her words and in her voice. He's started wearing will's shirts and sweaters as well, being a stable version of will graham that she can respectably be seen with. He is so obviously giving her what she wants at this point i actually did lol. And he also looks really good on her, showing that she is not that daft woman from "young adult" that leonard braver made her out to be, which is why she so ostentatiously came downstairs in hannibal's shirt. So what she wants is to put on a show, and a big one "fuck you all I won the best guy which proves i am the best girl and he could buy you, so there, in fact i'll ask him to buy me you for valentine's day" while simultaneously avoiding any expression of real emotion at all. Jack was not actually the guest of honor at the dinner party, it was alana all along.

And i don't think alana started out with such tepid non feelings for hannibal, i think she really had a schoolgirl crush on him all this time, but in actually relating to him she stomps her feelings doen under the trapdoor and tightly controls/denies them just as she did with Will.
posted by tel3path at 12:07 AM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

And meanwhile their discussion consists of "this is totally about will, right?" "Oh yeah"

"And the funeral is totally metaphorical, right?" "Of course I've already forgotten about that boring old real funeral we attended ages ago for the person we didn't care about? What was her name again?" "Yeah, none of that was real and we've successfully put down the latest threat too"

And actually Alana does not realize that when he said this was all about Will, he REALLY wasn't kidding and Hannibal's been up all night composing performance art to the one true love of his life
posted by tel3path at 12:52 AM on April 8, 2014

And i think we need to remember that hooking up with hannibal is essential for alana to reassert her personal and professional status, he wouldn't be seen with anything but the very best.

Will is like a little boy who pisses emotions all over the floor, and worse still, the next emotions he pisses could be your own.

Hannibal gives the impression of deep emotion while leaking very little of it. He has also found a socially acceptable way to eat his emotions, which is way better than experiencing them directly. If you're good enough he'll help you eat yours, too. You can have emotions around Hannibal and still look good.

But now that putting Will in jail and "helping" him as an excuse to keep seeing him isn't working any more, he's getting really embarrassing (and Leonard Braver also seems to have a good read on her emotions). If she goes out in public looking like that she'll never live it down. Now that Will has attacked Hannibal she HAS to side with Hannibal or she really is totally going to look like the woman who marries the death row prisoner after he's behind bars.

All right, Jack, see, I fucked Hannibal which proves I am the alpha female psychiatrist after all. I'm wearing my boyfriend's shirt which cost more than your whole outfit put together. It looks like a straitjacket, but it's my boyfriend's shirt.
posted by tel3path at 1:05 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

And

You never once get a single note of authenticity from Alana in her romance with hannibsl, it's perfectly clear she's acting out s script.
posted by tel3path at 1:10 AM on April 8, 2014

Insomnia and rereading a bit of Red Dragon and so many things that already feel portentous for the show or that I just want to see played out.... That first scene with Jack and Will near a beach talking about stuff and the whole "this is a call to action in a western and he might go out there and die" thing... The way Jack gives Molly roughly the same assurance he gives Alana that Will will be kept safe. Adding on the layers and echoes that the show has already setup for itself... FEELS.

I think more than anything I'd already thought of, that idyllic little scene right at the start is such an argument for a time jump after S3 to allow Will to get married and get everything else in place for the show version of this.
posted by sparkletone at 1:19 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Speaking of hannibal as the boring choice of relationship that you're "supposed" to want... i don't think he's always been that to Alana. Back in S1 when he was making tomato roses and talking about how passion gets the blood pumping and even proposing flat-out crazy shit like taking custody of Abigail [1] she was rebuffing him.

I find it interesting that he "pleasantly tepid relationship with a well-liked guy with whom she can have an adequately pleasurable sex life" is something that Alana is looking for in Hannibsl, since I can't believe that that's what he truly looks like even from her point of view, as he hasn't looked that way from ANY angle of view until now. I think what hannibal has is the ability to just-in-time morph into whatever she most needs him to be at a given moment (and she was still looking for passion in s1, I think).

The pleasantly tepid relationship you describe, echolalia, is one that women are constantly having it drilled into them that they should look for. We're told that healthy relationships are boring, and self-help books literally tell us to run away from the shiny guy who is really compelling to us because he's probably either a narcissist or really bad for us in some other way, probably a way that will bring the dreaded Drama in its wake. I have literally read self-help books that say to go for the bland-looking nice guy who is too shy to talk to you and strike up a conversation. As my posting history should show i'm all for avoiding narcissists and bad relationships, but the idea that blandness and boredom is the highest good a woman can strive for is just another way of telling us to settle, it's like saying why not start sleeping in a coffin now because you're going to end up in one anyway so you might as well face reality.

So alana makes the healthy choice and decides to settle, and the most readily available relationship into which to settle is with hannibal, so she asks him to take on that shape for her and he does. Even though up until now the attraction that hannibal seemed to offer was that (even if you knew he was a cannibal) he really really looked like he'd show you a good time (albeit briefly).

The irony is that every sensible thing alana does, every time she conforms the the inner voice of her normal-guy opinion about what a reasonable person should think, want, and go for, takes her one step closer to madness. Hence the straitjacket. Like she's getting nearer to becoming a 21st century mad housewife archetype, whatever that might look like.

Not that she'd ever have had a good relationship with Will either. I actually believe that part.

[1] and contrast her mild now, hannibal, that's clearly not a good idea rebuke to Hannibal for suggesting taking custody of Abigail (!) with her "dogs keep a promise a person can't" warning to Will for merely wanting to VISIT abigail - with the insulting implication that Will is a child who can't understand the difference between responsibility for a dog and responsibility for a human life, which she actually prefaces by acknowledging that it's insulting.

Btw alana is actually talking about herself in this scene - she was able to sustain responsibility for will's dogs but not for him
posted by tel3path at 2:13 AM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

I want him to move to florida and be kept uncomfortably awake by the humid heat of the night, then have an idea and get up and look for his old ice skates that he used to have when he had a pond that froze in the winter. And then he goes to an indoor rink to cool off at about 5am, and Molly is there zooming around without a care in the world because she and her son have an apartment right over the rink. He empathically drinks in her intoxicating sense of freedom.

After a while a waltz comes on and she asks him to dance, he says "i'd like to but i don't know how" and she offers to take his hand and show him. Being an empath he picks it up impressively quickly, with of course all that that implies, showing promising tendencies for the future. Then her son comes down for his early morning skate, which he sometimes likes to do with molly, and the scene closes with them all zooming around the rink without a care in the world, preferably with that florence and the machine "spectrum" song playing over the sound system.

Yeah, i'd like that. He could be allowed to enjoy himself for 90 minutes, surely.
posted by tel3path at 2:20 AM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

Not that i spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff obviously. I have a life
posted by tel3path at 2:29 AM on April 8, 2014

But I would absolutely pay money to see a romantic comedy episode where Chilton escapes and develops a doomed, slapstick crush on Bedelia.
posted by tel3path at 3:21 AM on April 8, 2014

Yes, Bedelia as Capucine, Chilton as Inspector Clouseau

I can see it now
posted by tel3path at 7:05 AM on April 8, 2014

Look at the store on the right
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

WAIT

If the beer is people, and the beer is not Miriam Lass

WHO IS THE BEER?

zomg who is alana's special reserve

could it be... HER FAMILY MEMBER WHO WAS KILLED IN THAT FAMILY TRAUMA THAT LED HER TO BECOME A FAMILY TRAUMA PSYCHIATRIST?
posted by tel3path at 9:37 AM on April 8, 2014

OMG

When Jack visits Will in the cage and he's like "dude we probably totally ate people for dinner I tell you hanni is about to have a dinner party u mark my words" Jack is wearing a BLUE SHIRT

When Jack visits Hannibal and is drinking brandy in front of the fire with him and Hannibal says "well, gotta transform all my terrible suffering into life-enhancing stuffs, I'm gonna throw a dinner party" and Jack gives him SUCH A LOOK

JACK IS WEARING A RED SHIRT
posted by tel3path at 9:45 AM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

Will, if you're going to point a gun at someone, fire it.

I know you need the work for 6 more episodes but I would like to see slightly more responsible use of guns here k thx.
posted by tel3path at 10:41 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

OH GOD THOUGH

WHAT IF ALANA IS ABIGAIL MK.1

WHAT IF ALANA'S DAD WAS A CANNIBAL OR SOMETHING

OR OR OR

WHAT IF ALANA'S DAD WAS ET BY A CANNIBAL who was never caught OR SOMETHING
posted by tel3path at 10:53 AM on April 8, 2014

The beer could still totally be Miriam Lass, depending on what part of Miriam went to be beer. I don't think we know how long ago the arm was removed, and even if it didn't come from the arm, it could be from something non-fatally removed like some blood or something.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:20 AM on April 8, 2014

I dunno, if it had been preserved in beer wouldn't someone have said "and this arm seems to have been preserved in beer"

and I don't know if half an armful of blood can make much difference in the taste of a vat of beer?

But anyway, the point is, echolalia67 is right. She must have suffered a family trauma to have become a therapist specialising in family trauma, navel gazing, and ignoring reality. Whatever her bond with Hannibal is it MUST have something to do with him leveraging the shit out of that trauma.

If he has a "special reserve" of beer JUST FOR ALANA it means that not only is the beer people

THE BEER IS TRAUMA

HANNIBAL YOU LITTLE SHIT

I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS I WILL SMASH THROUGH THE SCREEN BEFORE YOU HARM A HAIR ON POOR ALANA'S HEAD

oh wait you already did, and i was no help

shit

there doesn't seem to be much I can do about this, does there?
posted by tel3path at 11:23 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

The beer could be just about anybody, really. I think Hannibal is more interested in just keeping Alana around as a friend who can vouch for him than psychologically torturing her. (I mean, today, anyway.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:52 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Will, if you're going to point a gun at someone, fire it.

I know you need the work for 6 more episodes but I would like to see slightly more responsible use of guns here k thx.

We see that scene out of context, so I actually wonder if Will goes there meaning to kill him, or if he just goes there to talk to/threaten him and is smart enough to keep a gun on him at all times while doing so. I mean, we've seen what happens to people who go to his house and fail to draw their guns in time... twice...
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:56 AM on April 8, 2014

Well I keep reading about people's rage at all the "Alana hate" on the internet and how people are saying she should magically know what's really going on by becoming psychic.

And I keep hearing about this stuff and never coming across any of it.

I guess I must be the one writing it all, then...?
posted by tel3path at 12:20 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wait a minute, though.

CHILTON thinks Hannibal fits the profile? As in, Chilton's profile?

Does that mean we should all go "that settles it, Hannibal is innocent!" or what? I'm so confused!

But just fucking hang on a minute here, though.

Chilton listens to everything Will says, Chilton watches everything Will does. If Will talks to anyone, Chilton ought to assume that the conversation is purely for manipulative purposes, EXCEPT:

Chilton recognizes Hannibal as a psychic-driver because Chilton is guilty of the same thing. But the more he listens and watches the more he thinks that Hannibal really is the guilty one.

And yet, he is Chilton. Generally speaking, if he's right, it's purely by accident.

But actually, he is right, and I'm not totally convinced that it's by accident.

And all this, basically just by paying fucking attention. Seems like the guy doesn't have a lot to do.

OMG, this show and its complex contradictory characterisation.
posted by tel3path at 12:30 PM on April 8, 2014

But anyway, the point is, echolalia67 is right. She must have suffered a family trauma to have become a therapist specialising in family trauma, navel gazing, and ignoring reality. Whatever her bond with Hannibal is it MUST have something to do with him leveraging the shit out of that trauma.

I was thinking about this earlier. I think that the Alana character is frustrating because for all of the screen time she got in season 1 and even for the limited amount this season, she doesn't feel like a complete character. We've seen Jack, Will, & Hannibal's homes but we've never seen hers. We have some background on the types of families most of the characters grew up in, even Jimmy & Brian. Not her.

For someone who is obviously an essential character (given the amount of screen time she's had), we know almost nothing about her and are left to speculate and do our own exposition. I don't know if it's intentional or accidental on the part of Fuller & Co., but her lack of backstory is very frustrating.
posted by echolalia67 at 12:34 PM on April 8, 2014

Well, we know she has brothers and is accustomed to seeing males walking around in their underwear.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on April 8, 2014

What we do get feels very contradictory. She sees Hannibal do something undeniably unethical early on with Abigail, but aside from a brief angry confrontation, she vanishes from the parts of the narrative around Abigail really quickly after that; I don't recall even seeing her talk to Abigail again, it's all Will and Abby or Hannibal and Abby…and Abby's supposed to be *Alana's* patient! No, instead she's Will's mostly absent friend, then a possible love interest for Will and/or Hannibal, and for a pair of episodes she's Gideon's ex-shrink.

This is odd, and it's not actually clear to me in what capacity Abigail is her patient. For one thing it's a matter of geography; am I right in thinking the hospital is nearer to Baltimore than it is to Minnesota? In that case it makes sense.

I'll tell you what impression I do get, though: Jack is relying on Alana to tell him if she finds out that Abigail did help her father. And we see in Oeuf that he's merciless even with children obviously under duress and obviously well below the age of criminal responsibility. If Abigail is hovering around the age of 18, and she tells Alana the whole truth, imagine what Jack will do to her then. She might very well get the death penalty.

We see from the very beginning that Alana is reporting her sessions with Abigail to Jack. Presumably Abigail knows that the sessions aren't confidential. Which means that Alana is in a double-bind - her duty as a doctor says to protect her patient, but her duty to the FBI says to grass up the patient. No wonder, then, that Alana sides with the patient and maintains a determined belief that Abigail was not implicated (I deliberately don't say "guilty" in reference to a minor in Abigail's situation). It might not help Abigail as much as it could, but at least it won't get her killed, and maybe it will help her get to "18 and out" which seems to have been Abigail's goal all along. (I think she is already 18 but you know what I mean)

Therefore, the therapeutic value of her sessions with Abigail has to be limited because Abigail has to hide what really happened to her. She then connects with Hannibal, who makes it known pretty quickly that he sees the worst in Abigail and believes in her anyway. While she doesn't exactly trust him, she is able to connect with him, but not able to perceive the true nature of his understanding. When she finally breaks down and confesses, it's to him.

So I think the reason why we don't see much of Alana's interactions with Abigail is because they're the "official version", they're what's going on on the surface, whereas the real action is unfolding with Hannibal.

It sounds like they tried to bring that "economy" to Alana's early establishing sessions with Abigail and then never revisited them, in other words.

The impossible position Alana is put in is another example of the BAU as a whole, stitching people up and driving them crazy. I keep saying that I think Alana is going to wind up emotionally incapacitated by this whole thing, and writing that last sentence tells me why: I think Alana might be the Chosen One to outwardly express the BAU's dysfunction, especially if Will continues to rise to at least minimal credibility.
posted by tel3path at 1:14 PM on April 8, 2014

CHILTON thinks Hannibal fits the profile? As in, Chilton's profile?

No, as in the FBI profile of the Ripper. Will's and Jack's profile.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:20 PM on April 8, 2014

Ah yes, but we can throw that profile out because it's Will's profile and he would say that, wouldn't he?
posted by tel3path at 1:20 PM on April 8, 2014

It's not like profiling is some arcane magic- everyone on the show agrees about the profile, I think. Regardless, Chilton definitely didn't have anything to do with the profile.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:23 PM on April 8, 2014

And Chilton knows more about Hannibal than that he simply fits the profile.

It is kinda funny, though. Kinda like asking Georgia Madchen to identify the killer, had she lived. She has prosopagnosia, so can't recognise faces, so how could she possibly have described him?

"Well, he had light brown hair very neatly combed as well as some conspicuous '70s sideburns. He also had on a very distinctive dark suit with a really loud red windowpane check, and a light grey tie with a large red paisley print, tied in a full Windsor knot. He was really tall and built like a brick shithouse. Also he had on a full-body plastic suit like the one Patrick Bateman had in the American Psycho movie."

Wow, we're stumped! Doesn't sound like anybody we've ever heard of!
posted by tel3path at 1:28 PM on April 8, 2014

ADVANCED SURGICAL SKILLS

And "except for the psychopath part" - sigh. I think it's baloney that anyone (in the know, like the show runners, Bedelia, Thomas Harris etc) would say Hannibal isn't a psychopath because he has some shitty ability to love or whatever. Obsession isn't love, and if you ask me love means never having to say you'd taste better with a touch more oregano.

Not to mention that psychopaths can be well disguised enough to fool experts for months at a time so by definition, he might not seem like one.
posted by tel3path at 1:48 PM on April 8, 2014

I have not seen anyone (in our world) say that Hannibal is not a psychopath. Characters on the show do believe Hannibal is a psychopath (which is what I meant) because they do not know that he has 30+ murders to his name. Not to mention that it is pretty much all a game to him. Also he takes trophies from all (?) of his victims, eats them and feeds them to other people.

Everyone on the show will see him as a pyschopath, eventually. Everyone that lives long enough, that is.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:53 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think Bedelia is supposed to voice doubt that he's a psychopath, Mads Mikkelsen says he's not sure Hannibal's a psychopath, I'm pretty sure the show runners have said he's not a psychopath (that is more understandable because you don't want to reduce the number of available moves for a character, but they just could have said nothing) and Thomas Harris in Red Dragon says, via Will, that Hannibal is not a psychopath.

I'm not saying they should assume he's a psychopath because OMG! He's a respectable citizen, he has charm, and if you ask people who know him they say he wouldn't hurt a fly! By those criteria, I'm a psychopath. I mean I don't see how they can rely on being able to spot that criterion by someone's outward behaviour.
posted by tel3path at 2:00 PM on April 8, 2014

Well, we know she has brothers and is accustomed to seeing males walking around in their underwear.

True, but we don't quite get the feel for her family dynamics the way we do when Will, Jack & Team Sassy Science discuss their place in their family chronology. She has brothers who walked around in their underwear, end of story.

Beverly is the eldest child of a big family (with a mom who has mad cussing skillz), Brian is the middle child, Jimmy has an identical twin, and Will is an only child. The character's banter and reaction shots show when a comment about birth order personalities hit a nerve. It's a brilliantly subtle way of giving us enough hints to understand who Bev, Brian & Jimmy are. Alana just gets "brothers"; not how many, not who was the oldest child, just male siblings who walked around in their underwear. It can't be completely unintentional that Alana's been left something of a cipher, can it?
posted by echolalia67 at 2:01 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

I doubt it, I think we're about to learn more.
posted by tel3path at 2:02 PM on April 8, 2014

The basic profile of the Chesapeake Ripper is an intelligent psychopath with advanced surgical skills. He is an artist and feels like he is above everyone. To Chilton and Jack Hannibal fits all of these criteria, except for the psychopath part. Though Chilton is starting to accept the psychopath part. And Jack is seeing enough of the other connections to be somewhat open to the possibility, even if he isn't accepting what Will says outright like he used to.

I think they aren't seeing it because they don't want to see it, because they would rather be enjoying their wonderful meals at Hannibal's house than prosecuting him. I think they just would rather he be out and about, so he is.

I don't think that everyone is stupid. I think they just like being part of the club, and Hannibal is club president, so they'll keep him around as long as they have ANY ability to do so.

They're complicit, that's all.

This reminds me, has anybody ever read The Butcher Boy? It just sort of reminds me of the attitude, the whole "everybody knows, but nobody's going to say or do anything, because it's just so much easier to go on *this* way."
posted by rue72 at 2:23 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

And that is what it boils down to - that's what I think.

I'm trying to figure out if they can really be excused from all this or if I'm being unfair. I don't know why this bothers me so much. It's not like these fictional characters are going to get butthurt because some crazy cat lady unfairly disapproves of them. But there it is.

And you know what rue72... it was when Will said to Jack that the food was probably people, that Jack started to listen despite himself.

He loves it! Just not if the food is people, that's gross. That's what changes his mind.

And when Will talks of the happy anticipation of being able to feel contempt, I was convinced his contempt was directed at Jack.
posted by tel3path at 2:29 PM on April 8, 2014

To paraphrase Chilton, that would suggest a radically unorthodox form of law enforcement.
posted by figurant at 2:29 PM on April 8, 2014

(It's also consistent with a very dark reading of "The evolutionary origins of stigmatisation", on which Hannibal's most-cited paper is based.)
posted by tel3path at 2:30 PM on April 8, 2014

I can't decide. Math is hard. You guys, am I an Alana Bloom hater if I post this?
posted by tel3path at 2:36 PM on April 8, 2014

Those "Post Mortem" videos were fantastic, thanks for posting. Were they having some kind of International Day Fair or something though? Why is the American man showing up with those leather biker gloves, the English man with impossibly floppy/shiny hair and a modified fisherman's sweater, and I don't even know how to describe the utter Danishness of what Mads had on.
posted by rue72 at 5:46 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

No, tumblr has been a fucking cesspool when it comes to Alana for a bit. That much I can let roll off my back, because lol tumblr.

Y'all are at least making logic-based arguments.
posted by dogheart at 6:13 PM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

dogheart, I have mad love for Alana. You are not alone.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:34 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Nah, echolalia67, you're fine. All of you are fine and I adore every last one of you, really. Like I know that my perspective is skewed and inaccurate. It's alright, and I actually really do appreciate the perspective here, otherwise I'd probably be blinded by fandom myopia. Having reasonable people make objections, people whose opinions I respect and trust, it-- ahaha, gives me a gauge for reality.

Y'ALL ARE MY PADDLE
posted by dogheart at 6:48 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

One of the things that I've love about Hannibal so far, it how well it's captured the personality types for people who work in the psych fields. I can pretty much swap out the character's names for people I've worked with. I have a lot of mixed feeling about leaving the field (I loved the job, but the job was bad for me in the long run) but the show reminds me of things that made me really happy when I was working in it.

Weird but true: from what I observed, the ratio of left-handedness to right-handedness amongst psych workers is the exact opposite of the general population.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:22 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

I can pretty much swap out the character's names for people I've worked with.

Including Hannibal? I should say that the job would have been bad for you in the long run! (Actually though, why would it have been or was it?)

Last season, Hannibal was drugging Will, and using him as a cover by pinning the murders on him, while Will was acting more irrational and self-destructive all the time. This season, Hannibal is drugging Alana, and using her as a cover by claiming her as an alibi and character witness, while Alana is acting more irrationally blind and arguably self-destructive all the time (by even dating him). Did Alana have a responsibility to do anything more for Will then, and does Will have a responsibility to do anything more for Alana now? Is Alana following out Will's story from last season, and will she spend next season locked up and trying to piece together how she could have been abandoned to Hannibal like that?

On the one hand, she's an adult and makes her own choices, but on the other hand, I'm wondering if maybe Hannibal is playing the same game with a new toy and it's slipping under everyone's noses somehow?
posted by rue72 at 8:45 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well, not IF Hannibal is playing the same game, he definitely is playing the same game of picking someone out, isolating him/her, victimizing him/her, and then setting him/her up to be punished for his misdeeds**. But is everybody just going to go ahead and scapegoat Hannibal's new plaything, including his old plaything, Will? Do they even have a choice of doing otherwise, if Alana is (semi?) complicit in her own victimization? (Did they have a choice with Will?)

I assume that Bedelia was Hannibal's plaything before the other two, and even she realized what was happening, or at least that she had to take some kind of action, too late to stop Hannibal from victimizing Will. Is Will going to be quicker on the uptake than Bedelia was? Is his help going to be more effective than Bedelia's was? Given that Hannibal has created a wedge between Alana and her allies, including Will, is anybody in a position to help her, even if they feel a desire to (and I don't think that they currently even feel a desire to)? And what's Alana's responsibility?

Is Alana's storyline this season really just her going through virtually the same shit that Will went through last season, and everyone missing it and doing nothing *again* -- even while they're *catching* Hannibal? Is Hannibal's scapegoat/victimization game going to work *even with the people who are onto him*?

**And now I'm worried this is also happening with Mariam Lass.
posted by rue72 at 9:29 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

Including Hannibal? I should say that the job would have been bad for you in the long run! (Actually though, why would it have been or was it?)

No Hannibals but quite a few Alanas, waaay too many Chiltons, more than one Matthew Brown (the skeevy predator part, not the serial killer part). I had to quit the job because I couldn't leave it behind me when I came home. I worried about my clients as if they were friends and family. I was often so angry at the things that they suffered (especially the children) that I had murderous fantasies about taking a baseball bat to the people who had harmed them.

What ultimately did me in was the realization that my clients weren't a finite group of people who had suffered some sort of unique "act of God" trauma; they were victims of garden-variety physical/sexual/emotional abuse and human cruelty; there were more of them coming down the pike everyday. A infinite chain of pain that I could never hope to stem the tide of. I had empathy in spades but no emotional insulation to keep the worst of it at bay. I lasted 4 years before leaving. I miss the co-workers & the clients (many genuinely lovely people) but I don't miss the endless worry and despair.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:31 PM on April 8, 2014 [5 favorites]

I think only Will fully understands that Alana needs help.

We really are on a knife edge and it's hard to tell whether the show is portraying lucid Alana ignoring the signs and choosing to signing all her consent away, or if she's a mind control puppet with the same amount of freedom that mentally and physically debilitated Will had last year. Or some point in between. Clearly there are a number of people on this show who are complicit with hannibal so we can't simply say that everything that happens on it is 100% Hannibal's fault. Hannibal didn't make chilton psychic-drive gideon and it seems that chilton didn't make gideon into a murderer - not the first time, at least, he was in because he killed his family, as far as we know chilton didn't make him do that. But we could go by what we see on screen and then find out that the real picture was very different. Will tried to say that nothing he said made matthew brown try to kill him, but I don't think that's true. If he hadn't said anythign, that particular attempted murder wouldn't have happened, at least not in that form. Will says he holds hannibal responsible for it all, which is true in that hannibal is the prime mover in creating the given circumstances in which will finds himself. But then hannibal turns back on him the notion of doing something and saying someone else made you do it and says, fine, look what you're about to make me do.

It is true that in the given circumstances will had few or no good choices and tactically he had to make matthew brown cost the system something. However, he did in fact still try to kill hannibal, even if you could call it justifiable homicide, and it's impossible to just dismiss that.

I see will wears a blue shirt next week, if that's a sign of taking the blue pill it means he is still trapped within the confines of hannibal's thinking, which is to answer evil with evil. He will have to find another way, i think.

I don't think anyone can say based on what we've seen so far, that the bau isn't complicit in keeping hannibal out of jail. But everything is based on what we've seen so far.

It's a knife edge between holding people (ourselves) responsible for being complicit with great evil (and demonstrably, historically, this does happen and we should fear it greatly in ourselves) and on the other hand blaming the victim (another thing we should fear greatly in ourselves) when we ourselves have more than enough information to know better.

I think it boils down to "judge not lest you be judged".

I think this is quite a religious piece of work and it's hard, man. Math is hard.
posted by tel3path at 12:31 AM on April 9, 2014

IS IT POSSIBLE THE UNNAMED FISHING FLY IS BEDELIA
posted by tel3path at 12:34 AM on April 9, 2014 [2 favorites]

No. Bedelia got away.
posted by sparkletone at 2:22 AM on April 9, 2014

We think.
posted by tel3path at 2:33 AM on April 9, 2014

I don't know how you interpret the scene with Hannibal sneaking around her house with the furniture covered and everything any other way.
posted by sparkletone at 2:42 AM on April 9, 2014

I think it's improbable, but maybe his pursuit didn't end there.

I think she got away, but we don't know that. We all thought Miriam Lass was dead.
posted by tel3path at 2:50 AM on April 9, 2014

Wait, why does alana file a complaint against jack but not against chilton?

Why does she tell Gideon that chilton was psychic driving him, and then just hand him back to Chilton with no attempt at further intervention?

These aren't rhetorical questions, i'm asking if there is an explanation for this that i missed.
posted by tel3path at 3:05 AM on April 9, 2014

You know why Alana calms down after he gestures her to sit down at the dining table with Abigail?

BECAUSE HE LITERALLY JUST TOLD HER TO SIT AND STAY
posted by tel3path at 5:14 AM on April 9, 2014

Or he could be going to frame Jack, who was "deposed in court" the day he offed Cassie Boyle.
posted by tel3path at 9:47 AM on April 9, 2014

Saw the Korean promo with Miram in it.

I'm calling it, she frames Chilton.
posted by The Whelk at 10:02 AM on April 9, 2014 [2 favorites]

But there's still time to frame absolutely everyone else after that!
posted by tel3path at 10:22 AM on April 9, 2014

"Screw it, everyone is the ripper, living in Baltimore just carries this risk, whatever, let's eat."
posted by The Whelk at 10:32 AM on April 9, 2014

Well chilton always did want to be thought as clever as hannibal. Now he'll be in the vanguard of his profession, renowned, just as he always wanted.
posted by tel3path at 11:49 AM on April 9, 2014

CHeer up Chilly yer gonna be FAMOUS
posted by The Whelk at 12:02 PM on April 9, 2014

They would not build Bedelia up to be this cool, collected badass character who is the only one to outwit Hannibal, and then unceremoniously kill her offscreen. It's just plain bad storytelling.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:15 PM on April 9, 2014

I sure hope not. But since i'm shipping willelia so hard, i figure she can't possibly get through this alive because sex before death is as unlikely for me in fiction as it is in real life
posted by tel3path at 12:26 PM on April 9, 2014

CHeer up Chilly yer gonna be FAMOUS

That makes me want to think of a rendition of "Cheer Up Murray" from Flight of the Conchords, modified to be about Chilton.

Cheer up Chilton
Don't let it get you down
Pick your guts off the ground
It's gonna be alright

That's all I got so far, but I already like it.
posted by Green With You at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2014

They would not build Bedelia up to be this cool, collected badass character who is the only one to outwit Hannibal, and then unceremoniously kill her offscreen. It's just plain bad storytelling.

Agreed. And in the AV Club walkthrough for the episode where she leaves, he specifically says they want to get Gillian Anderson back if they can because they feel like there's more story for her character. I can't believe that would all be flashback because she's dead now.

Until the show or Bryan says differently, she got away.
posted by sparkletone at 12:33 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

I keep being surprised at the way non-pacifists think of violence...? Make it axiomatic that violence is right in certain circumstances, then be TOTALLY SHOCKED when someone uses it in ways that should be considered justifiable, given that it's already axiomatic that violence is right in certain circumstances...

In all those given circumstances, the universe is TOTALLY SHOCKED that will has gone DARK.

OMG. TOTALLY DARK.

"i know you felt powerless about what happened to beverly and you wanted to do something about it" - well no shit, my question is why is he the only one?

I am really hoping that the answer turns out NOT to be that acceptance of violence is not axiomatic on this show. That would be groundbreaking.

Also, if I'm saying that the stag represents the sacrifice that was substituted so that iphigenia could go free, and that for a while, lecter was the stag (because, as the culprit, ostensibly needing to be sacrificed) - and then Hannibal became the Wendigo but the stag remained a stag... I was looking at that dream sequence where will slashes abigail's throat and the stag collapses. I think this season will culminate in realization that will has to sacrifice himself to defeat hannibal, rather than answering his evil with evil.

It would retcon that cheesy line they added to the Red Dragon movie: "How did you catch him?" "i let him kill me"
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on April 9, 2014

I think my favorite psych in-joke of the season is last week's conversation between Gideon & Hannibal when the latter reffered to the residents of the BHCI as the "unworried unwell".
posted by echolalia67 at 1:23 PM on April 9, 2014 [4 favorites]

tee hee
posted by tel3path at 1:24 PM on April 9, 2014

On the last day of voting, we still have a HUGE lead in that stupid Hulu poll thing. Woo. Woo, I say.
posted by sparkletone at 1:37 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

If Hannibal wins, does he get to eat Joffrey?
posted by homunculus at 3:13 PM on April 9, 2014

Oh god please you don't know where he's been.

Joffery could be like, a lamp.
posted by The Whelk at 3:16 PM on April 9, 2014

There are some nice pies Hannibal might enjoy later on in the series...
posted by lovecrafty at 3:22 PM on April 9, 2014

You really ought to try crow (GOT spoiler)
posted by homunculus at 3:29 PM on April 9, 2014

You really ought to try crow (GOT spoiler)

I really don't remember the Thenns in the books being mentioned as ... relevant to this thread's interests in the way they are in that clip. Such a weird change.
posted by sparkletone at 3:33 PM on April 9, 2014

Maybe they're trying to attract more Hannibal viewers.
posted by homunculus at 3:49 PM on April 9, 2014

GoT has something 2-3x the viewership of Hannibal. Maybe they should consider wearing more fur and having some cool sword play.

(and boobs. many, many boobs.)
posted by sparkletone at 4:09 PM on April 9, 2014

I can see Hannibal as a Targaryen.
posted by dogheart at 4:24 PM on April 9, 2014

Really only House Tyrell is fancy enough for Hannibal, all culture and grace and art and poisoning people.
posted by The Whelk at 4:27 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

But you can't eat poisoned people! No, you want a house that is very observant of guest rights and the rituals of politeness. One that appreciates good food. One that knows revenge can be a cold dish indeed. One that knows the song of the Rat Cook.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:36 PM on April 9, 2014

I just wanted you guys to know that I just signed up for tumblr and its all your fault.
Much love,
The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 6:37 PM on April 9, 2014

GoT has something 2-3x the viewership of Hannibal.

Significantly more than that. It has 2-3x the viewership for the initial first airing but GoT is aired many times over the course of the week and total viewership is quite a bit higher. HBO doesn't make money on ads so they don't care about the size of any one time slot or whatever.
posted by Justinian at 6:37 PM on April 9, 2014

Guys, Hannibal is obviously House Manderly. Do I need to say why?
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on April 9, 2014

ITS BECAUSE OF LANNISTER PIE.
posted by Justinian at 6:45 PM on April 9, 2014

Significantly more than that. It has 2-3x the viewership for the initial first airing but GoT is aired many times over the course of the week and total viewership is quite a bit higher. HBO doesn't make money on ads so they don't care about the size of any one time slot or whatever.

Yeah. I was just going off the top of my head and I couldn't remember ever seeing live+7 numbers for GoT and didn't feel like looking. I knew that the number I'd seen for the season premiere the day after though was about 2-3x the best ratings Hannibal's ever done. Didn't feel like going for further details.
posted by sparkletone at 7:02 PM on April 9, 2014

I just wanted you guys to know that I just signed up for tumblr and its all your fault.

One of us, one of us, one of us, one of us...
posted by sparkletone at 7:04 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

Justinian: "Guys, Hannibal is obviously House Manderly. Do I need to say why?"

That will work out very well if he's doing low carb, although by definition I guess Hannibal is always doing low carb.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:10 PM on April 9, 2014

unless they find a way to make people bread.
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on April 9, 2014

I think Lord Manderly's pie crusts are fairly high carb...
posted by lovecrafty at 8:17 PM on April 9, 2014

And they contain no Lannisters. As of yet.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:18 PM on April 9, 2014

Heard this on the radio this morning and thought of the good ship Hannigram.
posted by rue72 at 8:28 PM on April 9, 2014

well if're going on Hannibal-like music videos
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

NEW MATTER OF TASTE PODCAST UP
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on April 9, 2014

Hannigram, country style.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:08 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

I REMEMBER WHEN WE BROKE UP

THE FIRST TIME

WHEN YOU FRAMED ME FOR MURDER

AND SHOVED AN EAR DOWN MY THROAT

CAUSE YOU LIKE KILLED ALL THOSE PEOPLE

WHAT

AND YOU COME AROUND AND SAID

BABY MAYBE THIS WAS A TEST YOU CAN CHANGE

I HATE YOU WE BREAK UP I GREW ANTLERS I TRIED TO KILL YOU SAID I LOVE YOU

WE ARE NEVER EVER EVER GETTING BACK TOGETHER
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on April 9, 2014 [4 favorites]

The 24 hour count down to my personal weekly flailing and sobbing hour commences in 1 minute.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:59 PM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sent Game Of Thrones down to our murder basement.
posted by sparkletone at 9:09 AM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

More Post Mortems have been posted on AXN: Caroline Dhavernas, Aaron Abrams and Hettienne Park, Janice Poon (food stylist!) , Jim Hawkinson (cinematographer).
posted by Harpocrates at 11:26 AM on April 10, 2014 [5 favorites]

Thanks for the heads up! Still no Chilty Wilty though. >:[

But that they're talking to Janice and others means hope remains.
posted by sparkletone at 11:49 AM on April 10, 2014

COULD TEAM SASSY SCIENCE BE ANY MORE ADORABLE. Also: That Janice Poon one is really, really interesting. I really liked her particular way of expressing the meaning of Hannibal's eating practices.

Also: NB. For the hardcore anti-spoiler crowd, the one with Caroline contains a short clip from 2x07. Given that it airs tomorrow night and is a smaller moment (her and will and dogs), I wouldn't shy away too hard but better you know it's there than not if you're inclined that way.
posted by sparkletone at 12:06 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

"More lines for me!" LOL.
posted by localroger at 12:13 PM on April 10, 2014

It's weird how adorable I find Caroline Dhavernas in Hannibal. Her character is in no way warm and fuzzy and I never found her particularly compelling in other roles. I'm sure Hannibal would identify a half dozen ways to manipulate me into insanity based on this fact alone.
posted by Justinian at 4:59 PM on April 10, 2014

It was interesting to hear what Jim Hawkinson had to say. I've heard several times that Cronenberg and Kulbrick were visual influences but I see a touch of Dario Argento in there too. I wonder if Fuller is a fan of Italian horror movies ...
posted by echolalia67 at 5:03 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Fuller is a fan of Italian horror movies ...

I can't recall that strain ever coming up specifically in interviews, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he or one of the other people who have a big hand in the way things look was.
posted by sparkletone at 5:11 PM on April 10, 2014

D'oh, the link in my previous comment is broken. Here it is again.

I definitely see some influences in the set design, if nothing else. Argento is a misogynist motherfucker - there's no denying it - but damn, his movies are all about color and style.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:34 PM on April 10, 2014

Welp, countdown to being emotionally whipsawed again.

[bloop /] goodbye friends i am gone
posted by tel3path at 7:27 AM on April 11, 2014

IT'S FRIDAY, FRIDAY. WE'RE GONNA GET ET ON FRIDAY...
NOBODY'S READY FOR THESE FEELINGS, FEELINGS...
posted by sparkletone at 8:41 AM on April 11, 2014

I AM DISTRACTING MYSELF WITH COOKING

Making veal in a lavander sauce, I'm in an editable flower kick, suggestions for side dishes?
posted by The Whelk at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2014

I'm fancy cannibal'd out after last week's super fanciness. Probably going to be relatively unfancy until I go bonkers and get steak frites or something for the finale.
posted by sparkletone at 9:11 AM on April 11, 2014

Making veal in a lavander sauce, I'm in an editable flower kick, suggestions for side dishes?

Serve with Pistil ale?
posted by mountmccabe at 12:44 PM on April 11, 2014

I dunno if I'm going to make it home in time tonight, y'all. We'll see. If I don't, have fun flailing without me.
posted by dogheart at 1:58 PM on April 11, 2014

"Without saying too much, I can say we all had to take some long, hot physical showers to wash all the blood away. What happens to who I will not reveal, but it’s going to be a mess." -- Madds.

Me right now.
posted by sparkletone at 2:23 PM on April 11, 2014

It's Alana, I'm calling it now.

nooooo
posted by dogheart at 3:43 PM on April 11, 2014

It's Alana, I'm calling it now.

Wouldn't they give her a little bit of "redemption" before they kill her? They did that for Beverly, and they did that for Gideon, even, they made him relatively nice and fuzzy before putting him in Hannibal's hands. They've softened up Chilton's image, too, and Will straight up said he's next, so I think he's a likelier target than Alana in that sense.

The show has also put Alana in a rough position by making her "obstacle" in the way of either Jack or Will getting Hannibal, and they upped the potential stakes for that by having her sleeping with Hannibal...I don't think they would just throw all that setup away by killing her already? Whereas, Chilton has basically fulfilled his usefulness, because nobody is in the BSHCI now, and he's already told Jack basically all he knows.

My only thing with Chilton is that I think he'd be fun in terms of the "psychic driving" stuff, so I hope/wish that Hannibal wouldn't just kill him before bringing that story to fruiation. That's nowhere near as major a story as Alana and Hanniba's hook up or her foiling Jack and Will's ability to get to Hannibal, though, so....On the other hand, that's more of a story than Freddie or Mariam Lass have got.

Plus, with regard to Alana specifically, you know that Hannibal would want Will to kill her, that would be so much nastier than killing her himself. And I don't know that Hannibal even wants to kill her himself, frankly.

My money is on either Chilton or Mariam Lass (who could just be a one-and-done in terms of her role in the story -- she was last season, so why not, I guess). I personally think odds go to Mariam as most likely to be killed tonight, though. And they could just be cheating, they could just kill Gideon officially and be referring to him as the death (even though I considered him dead as of last episode because Hannibal said he was, and I don't really know where Hannibal's torture would go after forcing the guy to eat his own roast leg, anyway).
posted by rue72 at 4:05 PM on April 11, 2014

The worst thing about losing Chilton is the loss of him being so perfectly goddam awful to behind-bars Hannibal. Hoping it'll just be like Bedelia where they mess with us a bit, but the character survives just fine (or as fine as a guy who needs a cane and got to hold his own guts would ever be anyway).
posted by sparkletone at 4:21 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I think Chilton needs to stick around for awhile. If they kill him, someone else would have to step in to run the prison and that would require bringing in another actor, whereas Alana is completely replaceable and expendable plotwise and a net gain for the wrap dress budget.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:25 PM on April 11, 2014

I think Chilton is safe. I think Chilton is more safe than Jack, actually.

I think Miriam is safe, too. I honestly think Miriam will be this show's Clarice if they can't have Clarice. If they can have Clarice, then all bets are off and Miriam will die again.
posted by crossoverman at 5:28 PM on April 11, 2014

Oh no, he's gonna hate killing her. He hated killing Abigail and that didn't stop him. (If Abigail's even dead, I don't know anymore after this shit with Miriam.)

It's also possible that I'm just braced for maximum pain. Alana is my precious angel baby, after all.
posted by dogheart at 5:54 PM on April 11, 2014

NO AMOUNT OF PUPPIES CAN STOP THE PAIN TRAIN
posted by The Whelk at 5:56 PM on April 11, 2014

I think Chilton is safe. I think Chilton is more safe than Jack, actually.

Jack's got that big fight at the end of the season, though. They can't kill him off and then bring him back for that. I'm not putting any bets on him surviving after this season, however, because that neck wound looked dire.

I think Miriam is safe, too. I honestly think Miriam will be this show's Clarice if they can't have Clarice. If they can have Clarice, then all bets are off and Miriam will die again.

I agree that Miriam *is* this show's Clarice, but they also don't seem to like Clarice/Mariam much on this show!

Also, I think that she's basically just around to screw with Jack. However, the time when she's going to actually screw with him the most is right now, right when he's facing the shock of her being alive. Hannibal is going to want to get Jack to the next shock relatively fast, before this shock has a chance to wear off. Hannibal's also going to want to give Jack any other Mariam-related shocks before they're overshadowed (to Jack) by Bella's death, so he's going to have to act fast in that respect, too. I think Hannibal's going to want to kill her or set up her death relatively soon, and with this show, "relatively soon" probably means this episode or the next.
posted by rue72 at 5:57 PM on April 11, 2014

Oh no, he's gonna hate killing her. He hated killing Abigail and that didn't stop him. (If Abigail's even dead, I don't know anymore after this shit with Miriam.)

OK, I'll give you that this show is basically an old person horror movie, and sleeping with someone is a SURE SIGN the monster is going to kill you in every slasher-movie pre-2002 (on the other hand, drugs are the sign now, I think, so Bella smoking up probably bodes ill for her!).

They've put so so so much setup into Alana, though, why would they just get rid of her now, before she wreaks max havoc? First, they have to show Hannibal go past his Alana-related event horizon, so that we hate him even more and are on her side. Then, they've got to have her at least realize Hannibal's dangerous and attempt to turn on him (and it might be too late at that point DRAMATIC TENSION). At *that* point, I think they might kill her. But I actually think that at that point, she might still be safe, because then she's probably going to have the same coda to her story as Will has had, where she looks back and in hindsight it's clear that she was being misused, and then she'll swear revenge (and maybe pick up the mantel of being a Clarice-esque character, I don't know). Right now she's only just at the point of telling people she's *with* Hannibal, let alone turning on him. Anyway, what makes me think (hope?) she's safe is that I think that it feels too early for her to go, story-wise.

I will admit that regardless of all that, though, she does seem a bit marked for death -- especially because of that moment from last episode when the show overlapped Will saying, "who has to die before you open your eyes" with Alana's face. Also, this show loves crippling* characters in some way and then keeping them around for a long time -- Bella and her cancer, Will and his "disorder(s)" (I don't understand them but whatever), Chilton and his guts, Miriam and her arm. This show likes killing off the "healthy" characters the most, and Alana (and Freddie) are the only physically healthy characters who might be on the chopping block. But ummmm don't worry, maybe they'll just cripple Alana, too? And maybe she'll only become an emotional cripple somehow?

*I guess this makes sense, because I think that the "missing parts" or "disabilities" of some of the characters are supposed to be metaphors for things that are missing or ways that they are disabled as people (and not just as bodies). Don't know wtf Mariam's missing arm is supposed to be a metaphor for, though?
posted by rue72 at 6:14 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

I am fearful for Chilton as he's had an increased role for the past few episodes so they could be bolstering him up so we care when he is killed off. He really is so great and it would be a shame to lose him.

I just finished dinner (red snapper marinated and baked in Pinot Grigio, basil, capers and shallots served with rice cooked in sauteed onions, bell pepper and tomatoes, chicken stock and wine (not quite a risotto but that general idea)) and am about to watch the new Post Mortems until Hannibal!
posted by mountmccabe at 6:16 PM on April 11, 2014

Making dinner and watching ancient Colbert-related Daily Show clips because in 20 minutes laughter will die.
posted by sparkletone at 6:38 PM on April 11, 2014

No killing Chilton until he can see Hannibal behind bars and GLOAT LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER.
posted by The Whelk at 6:38 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

( I'm still betting on Miram Lass, Brainwashed murder Intern.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:39 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh wow the Post Mortems were great. I almost skipped Jim Hawkinson but it got really funny; there's a good stretch where Scott has no idea what's going on. And yeah, the Team Sassy Science episode was the best.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:44 PM on April 11, 2014

With the epic levels of craptacular I've experienced in the last two days (minor car accident yesterday, spend most of today in the ER with my mom) I am really looking forward to murder wizard TV mayhem tonight.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:56 PM on April 11, 2014

NOPE. NOT READY. AND YET HERE WE ARE ONCE MORE.
posted by sparkletone at 7:01 PM on April 11, 2014

... A BUNCH OF ARMCHAIR PSYCHOPATHS HELPING EACH OTHER OUT, aka FRIDAY.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:04 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

This the WORST first date, Hannibal. There's not even any food!
posted by sparkletone at 7:07 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Friday Friday gotta dissociate your indenity on Friday, everybody is looking foward to the mayhem, mayhem
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 PM on April 11, 2014

Damn it all, my precious show has been pre-empted in Pittsburgh for a local news special. Please be extra lovingly detailed in your liveblogging, folks. Missing murder wizardry is VERY UPSETTING TO ME right now.
posted by Stacey at 7:14 PM on April 11, 2014

Well at least we know Hannibal's murder basement isn't where the plexiglass is delivered.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:17 PM on April 11, 2014

BRUTALLY BLUNT WILL. DAMAGED WILL. VENGEFUL WILL
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on April 11, 2014

That was pretty much the worst ride home from prison ever.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:21 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Jack not convinced by Miriam's denial, YES. Will was very sassy. JUSTIFIED SASSY. INFINITE JUSTIFICATION FOR SASS.

And omg, Will free and determined as fuck and empathing like a bad-ass is so good to see. RECKONING, MOTHERFUCKERS....

Eventually. Good lord how is this merely episode 7.
posted by sparkletone at 7:22 PM on April 11, 2014

"And thanks to Wayland Smithers who's being a super good sport about the whole wrongful imprisonment thing."
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

PUPPIES
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on April 11, 2014

If WINSTON isn't trending on Twitter right about now I'll be very disappointed.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:23 PM on April 11, 2014

DOGGGGGIIEEESSSSSSS \o/
posted by sparkletone at 7:24 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Pork Chops and Applesauce.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:26 PM on April 11, 2014

I should like to point out Alana is the one who mentioned madness shared by two in season one.
posted by The Whelk at 7:27 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, god. Chilton's gonna mess with Miriam and she's gonna try and kill him or something (prediction, no idea if that's true).
posted by sparkletone at 7:28 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

Red Dragon echo in Hannibal smelling Will's presence.
posted by sparkletone at 7:31 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Apparently Hannibal's mortal enemy isn't Will it's Old Spice.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:31 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Bromance is dead, y'all. It's on.
posted by sparkletone at 7:33 PM on April 11, 2014

" Will, you can't kill me, I'm just too endlessly fascinating, look at this profile, it would like shooting a Da Vinci"
posted by The Whelk at 7:34 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

Idk man. HE DIDN'T SHOOT HIM WHY
posted by dogheart at 7:34 PM on April 11, 2014

You just can't kill a man whose fridge is that impeccably organized.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also: Prison.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on April 11, 2014

Anna as Miriam is amazing I hope she sticks around
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also, proof. He could kill Hannibal and they wouldn't find out he was the ripper, he'd just be Crazy Will.
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd gleefully go to prison to off that dickface. But that's just me.
posted by dogheart at 7:36 PM on April 11, 2014

NICE FADE CUT
posted by The Whelk at 7:37 PM on April 11, 2014

Idk man. HE DIDN'T SHOOT HIM WHY

He can't right now. He'd go to prison and they'd never prove that Hannibal was the ripper. He needs stone cold proof and then some after his little stint at the Chilton Hotel. Hannibal's too smart to confess with a gun on him like that, but maybe Will thought he could provoke him into some other action later? It's definitely a risky move, having that talk, but he couldn't kill him. Not till there's proof.
posted by sparkletone at 7:37 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Fuck me, that framing at the start of the scene with Miriam in the foreground in the light and the two shadows looming behind her. This fucking show.
posted by sparkletone at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

No y'all are right, I just grar.
posted by dogheart at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2014

Sweet Jeebus he is messing with her.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2014

This is Miram's Test. Hannibal enjoys testing people
posted by The Whelk at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2014

JACK. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ALLOWING THIS. OH GOD.
posted by sparkletone at 7:39 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man that was way riskier and more fucked up than Will putting a gun on Hannibal to make him squirm a bit. Not surprised in one sense but still kind of shocked he'd have Miriam put her head in the lion's mouth that way.
posted by sparkletone at 7:41 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

All white OF COURSE.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:41 PM on April 11, 2014

All white OF COURSE.

Hahaha. I just literally said "Of COURSE" out loud when Chilton walked in his house.
posted by sparkletone at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2014

SCREAMY SCREAMM SCREAMMMMM
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Making veal in a lavender sauce, I'm in an editable flower kick, suggestions for side dishes?

Nasturtium blossoms are super yummy, so are arugula flowers.
posted by echolalia67 at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2014

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCKING FUCK. ISJEFISEJFIEJF:EOSJFOESJEFEFSEF.

W E L P
posted by sparkletone at 7:42 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuck
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 PM on April 11, 2014

What the Jesus shitting goddamn fuck HOW CAN HE GET OUT OF THIS
posted by dogheart at 7:44 PM on April 11, 2014

CHILTON YOU LIVE IN A SCANDINVAIAN HOTEL ROOM
posted by The Whelk at 7:44 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

CHILTON YOU LIVE IN A SCANDINVAIAN HOTEL ROOM

LOLOLOLOL.
posted by sparkletone at 7:45 PM on April 11, 2014

I love the noirish music.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:45 PM on April 11, 2014

DOCTOR CHILTON WELCOME TO YOUR HITCHCOCKIAN NOIR NIGHTMARE
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

SAUSAGES
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on April 11, 2014

WILL’S FRAMING WAS LOVING. THIS IS HOW HE FRAMES YOU WHEN YOU DONE GOOFED.

(I also was about to call the music very noir. Dat clarinet.)
posted by sparkletone at 7:46 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

Ah, good. Jack is back to being super, super wrong at all times. This is still my show as I know it.
posted by sparkletone at 7:48 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

What is it with the feds and Chevys?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:49 PM on April 11, 2014

FUCKING. RAUL. ESPARZA. SOOOO GOOD.
posted by sparkletone at 7:50 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Raul is killing it.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:50 PM on April 11, 2014

The score in this episode is amazing.
posted by gladly at 7:51 PM on April 11, 2014

Raul is killing it.

Raul was framed for killing it and several others.
posted by sparkletone at 7:51 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

The Synchopated Drums of Mystery.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:52 PM on April 11, 2014

You Jack was thinking "damn now I can't shoot him."

Also FORSHADOWING THE KITCHEN FIGHT
posted by The Whelk at 7:53 PM on April 11, 2014

Jack shoulda brought his shotgun.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on April 11, 2014

THE PEN!
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:54 PM on April 11, 2014

FREDERICK "FORESHADOWING" CHILTON.
posted by sparkletone at 7:56 PM on April 11, 2014

OH MY GOD
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

HOLY FUCKING SHITISJEFISJEFO:IEJSIFOESJFOI:EJ:IOESJFESJFEF
posted by sparkletone at 7:56 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

NO FUCKING WAY
posted by dogheart at 7:57 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

I guess I'll have to eat my words now.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on April 11, 2014

WILL IS WEARING RED AND HAS COMBED HIS HAIR
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chilton bb, nooooo. We saw that it was definitely a headshot, but it missed the brain. The hole was in his cheek. Survivable maybe?
posted by sparkletone at 7:58 PM on April 11, 2014

GAME ON MOTHERFUCKER
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:58 PM on April 11, 2014

HOLY SHIT. WILL. YOUR GAMBIT HERE. WILL "WE ARE NEVER NEVER EVER GETTING BACK TOGETHER" GRAHAM IS GONNA FAKE IT TILL HE MAKES IT.
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on April 11, 2014

It's ooooonnnnnnnn.

(Holy shit this episode. I'm afraid of the next week on...)
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD. "Game on" is not a strong enough phrase to convey how so very much the game is motherfucking on.
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm so upset about Chilton my eyes are moist.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:00 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm so upset about Chilton my eyes are moist.

I am praying that that was one of those rare survivable headshots. The wound was definitely in his cheek.
posted by sparkletone at 8:02 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

IT'S HAPPENING

IT'S BECOMING TRUE

FAKE HANNIGRAHAM IS TOO BEAUTIFUL FOR WORDS
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

i don't have a tv or a livestream. what's happening!?!?!?
posted by Partario at 8:03 PM on April 11, 2014

I hate to say this among the avid fans but I was getting bored with this show. Tonight's episode changed my mind.
posted by maggieb at 8:04 PM on April 11, 2014

EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING. ALL AT ONCE.
posted by dogheart at 8:04 PM on April 11, 2014

Does it make me evil that I was laughing with glee when Will said "I want to resume my therapy?"
posted by localroger at 8:05 PM on April 11, 2014

i don't have a tv or a livestream. what's happening!?!?!?

Chilton got framed hard core, then Miriam got triggered into shooting him (it's not clear if it's fatal but it looked BAD BAD BAD). Will is going to get Hannibal by faking being his friend/protege the way Hannibal always wanted. FAKE HANNIGRAM HAS SET SAIL.
posted by sparkletone at 8:05 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING. ALL AT ONCE.

everything happens so much
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

SHOW

I WAS KISSIND I WAS JUST MAKING JOKES ABOUT HOW AWFUL IT COULD GET FOR EVERYONE

I DIDN'T MEAN IT

THIS IS AN EVIL GENIE OF A SHOW
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on April 11, 2014

localroger: "Does it make me evil that I was laughing with glee when Will said "I want to resume my therapy?""

No it means you are an excellent human.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:07 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

i'm dying. i wish i could have watched this with my foot-long subway sandwich.
posted by Partario at 8:08 PM on April 11, 2014

Would it be a $5 foot long with an actual foot?
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:09 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

WILL IS WEARING RED< THE COLOR OF THE WALLS IN THE OFFICE, THE COLOR OF MORAL/ETHICAL CONTAMINATION BY HANNIBAL

GGGGGGGGAAAAAAH
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on April 11, 2014

Damn now those Red and White striped curtains make sense because I cannot stop looking at them during the office scenes when they show the windows.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:12 PM on April 11, 2014

wait let me test my theory that everyone I predict about this comes horribly true . Ahem "musical episode"
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on April 11, 2014

Well per the theme of the oriignal Red Dragon novel, you put yourself at risk of becoming what you wish to defeat in order to defeat it.

Graham never quite got this far into the dragon's cave in the novel, but it was implied that the danger was there.

The question for this series -- which has now diverged radically from the source material -- is whether Will gets out with his soul.
posted by localroger at 8:13 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Raul "Let me repeat, I just got shot in the face" Esparza.
posted by sparkletone at 8:14 PM on April 11, 2014

I'm so glad I didn't miss this tonight.
posted by dogheart at 8:14 PM on April 11, 2014

When I said wanted Chilton to get horribly injured every season I WAS JOKING, SHOW

Why do I have to keep saying this
posted by The Whelk at 8:16 PM on April 11, 2014

Why do I have to keep saying this

The show does what it knows you want, not what you think you want.

The show also does not believe in safe words.
posted by localroger at 8:18 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

AV Club looks at the blinking light and sees a B+.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on April 11, 2014

Dear Show: Bring Bedelia back to make everyone okay.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:19 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Seeing William Lecter there is still giving me the FUCKING CREEPS
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sepinwall seems to have really liked it. Good fucking lord, the walk through for this week can't get posted fast enough. I want Fuller to confirm/deny Chilton being dead dead dead, in addition to Esparza saying his character's toast on twitter.
posted by sparkletone at 8:23 PM on April 11, 2014

“I can’t get over my feelings for you.”

YOU ARE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE, SHOW
posted by The Whelk at 8:28 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Still processing the episode as I get ready to go out and stand around in a night club and talk about the show on the internet... I do maybe kind of agree with the AV Club reviewer that this episode wasn't as thematically interesting as some of the others this season, but HOLY FUCK the plotting and the way this sets the stage for what I'm sure will be a completely bonkers back half of the season. Also:

"I finally find you interesting."

That fucking line.

I can't even.
posted by sparkletone at 8:36 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

God, Chilton and Will talking at Will's house. I laughed like a loon.

"You just had to throw up an ear!"
posted by PussKillian at 8:39 PM on April 11, 2014 [8 favorites]

Another belated thought: Holy shit are the comic sans/Hannibal crack people going to have a FIELD DAY with Raul in this episode. I can't wait.
posted by sparkletone at 8:44 PM on April 11, 2014

the show is doing the shipper's work for them.
posted by The Whelk at 8:45 PM on April 11, 2014

Dude for real. Jesus I felt like they straight up filmed my fanfic last week.

(...I'm not proud of that, by the way.)
posted by dogheart at 8:53 PM on April 11, 2014

Chilton was so good in this episode.

Even with Chilton being shot this episode really felt like a set-up/transition episode. Like, a lot went on but there's more.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:58 PM on April 11, 2014

Our fan-fiction keeps coming true.

what horrible power we have.
posted by The Whelk at 8:58 PM on April 11, 2014

Also Hannibal's not dumb so as overjoyed as he is by the possibility of getting everything we wants in the form of freedom and Evil!Will he's gonna test him, Hannibal loves tests "I need to know you aren't going to try to kill me again" and all

Hannibal is gonna make Will perform one of his crimes.

Just. like. I. thought. he. was.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on April 11, 2014

I've been trying not to think about it, but I worry that you're right. Also, I accidentally glimpsed a vague one sentence description of next week that was later confirmed by an interview with Caroline and...

Man, the tableau described in this one magazine's account (I forget which, only saw a jpeg of a few paragraphs) of a call between the writers and the network is ACTUALLY going to happen. I assumed that one had been shied away from hence it's appearance in the piece... But NOPE. NBC gives no fucks.
posted by sparkletone at 9:22 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

"WILL I NEED PROOF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TRY TO KILL ME AGAIN>"

"IS THIS PROOF ENOUGH" *will throws off coat to reveal naked body

"YES THIS WILL DO"

*Wiles tries to think of Justice.*
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

also, it needs to be said again, Anna Chlumsky is AMAZING even given the ABSURDLY high standard this cast sets.

Serioualy, wow.
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on April 11, 2014 [5 favorites]

in the past week I have seen two narratives about people with prosthetic arms who have been brainwashed
posted by The Whelk at 9:56 PM on April 11, 2014

Motherfuckerrs!!!!!!!!

Pre-empted by a baseball game!!!! Killllllllll!!!!!!!!!
posted by echolalia67 at 10:02 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

WALKTRHOUGH IS UP
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on April 11, 2014

Pre-empted by a baseball game!!!! Killllllllll!!!!!!!!!

echolalia67, please join me in watching it on iTunes! Should be up anytime now, I guess?

It is suddenly so frustrating to have neither a life nor cable. Especially when you guys start liveblogging things like "gljslgjslkgjgjg!!!1!" I have to remember not to stay in on Friday nights!
posted by rue72 at 10:11 PM on April 11, 2014

. Will now, of clear mind, is beginning his own seduction of Hannibal Lecter.

*SMASHES A BOTTLE OF CHAMPAGNE ON THE SHIP'S HILL*

FAKE HANNIGRAHAM IS REAL ALL HANDS ON DECK
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

BF: [Terry] Serpico survived a bullet to the face.

CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES
posted by sparkletone at 10:16 PM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

also apparently Hannibal uses tunnels under Baltimore to get to places

you know like he's a vampire on Buffy
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 PM on April 11, 2014 [3 favorites]

IF Chilton lives his injury will make it hard for him to eat

just like his injury in season one

omg
posted by The Whelk at 10:25 PM on April 11, 2014

I knew my ship wasn't going to sink Hannigram. I'm just so happy for the whole fandom, really. Ugh, Will, eat his fucking heart. GET HIM. WRECK WHATEVER HE HAS THAT PASSES FOR EMOTIONS.

Like every episode I am all 'how can they possibly top this?' AND THEN THEY DO.
posted by dogheart at 10:26 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

ALL THE SHIPS ARE IN THE HARBOR, FLAGS FLAPPING PROUDLY< CANONS SHINING.
posted by The Whelk at 10:28 PM on April 11, 2014

EVERYTHING IS CANON AND NOTHING HURTS
posted by dogheart at 10:36 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

Still blacked out on the West Coast. Seething ...
posted by echolalia67 at 10:51 PM on April 11, 2014

GOOD WORK SHOW, YOU MADE ME CARE ABOUT CHILTON AND THEN YOU FUCKING SHOT HIM IN THE FACE. JESUS CHRIST, BRYAN FULLER.

I'm both happy that the show gives no fucks about canon and upset that Chilton doesn't get to be there later when Hannibal is in jail.

I am clinging onto Fuller's little Serpico joke, hoping that Chilton survives. I mean, I didn't think he'd survive the disemboweling last season - so there's hope for him yet.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
posted by crossoverman at 11:08 PM on April 11, 2014

Oh man oh man oh man. JACK AND WILL ICE FISHING TEAMUP!

I need Alana to survive just so I can see what she does when presented with absolute proof. And I really really REALLY need to see Hannibal in that damned jumpsuit. I want that smirk wiped off his damned perfect face.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:10 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

> BF: [Terry] Serpico survived a bullet to the face.

CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES CHILTON LIVES

There's this tweet too. DON'T BET AGAINST CHILTON.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:24 PM on April 11, 2014 [1 favorite]

OH THANK FUCK.
posted by crossoverman at 11:27 PM on April 11, 2014

CHILTON WILL HAVE TROUBLE EATING WITH A TORN UP CHEEK

JUST LIKE HE HAS TROUBLE EATING WITH ONE KIDNEY

IT'S ALMOST LIKE NOT BEING ABLE TO EAT THINGS MAKES HIM ABLE TO SEE THE TRUTH
posted by The Whelk at 11:30 PM on April 11, 2014 [5 favorites]

JACK AND WILL ICE FISHING TEAMUP!

Those of us who can't wait until next week can pass the time re-watching this old episode of Fishing With John.
posted by homunculus at 11:35 PM on April 11, 2014

If Chilton's alive and Will/Jack are keeping it secret, it's like he's their Miriam. Oooooh.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:36 PM on April 11, 2014 [2 favorites]

Why do they think Chilton could do it? He can't even eat protein. I doubt he can hoist people onto fishing wire or move a paralyzed man or do many of the physical things that the Ripper does. Chilton isn't weak as a kitten, but the Ripper does some physically difficult things, he's always hoisting bodies into strange positions and in strange locations -- things I couldn't do, and I'm healthy but just not especially large. Can't Sassy Science get at least an approximate height and weight estimate on the Ripper because of those feats (and seeing as Hannibal seems to tower over everyone else and outweigh all but Jack by maybe 25+lbs...)?

Also, if Chilton had been the Ripper, what would have been going on with Mariam Lass's care during all that time when Chilton had to have been in the hospital after his disembowelment -- wouldn't she have starved to death? Doesn't he have an alibi for a whole lot of the Ripper's killings anyway, because he was hospitalized during them?

I clearly don't understand this show, because I'm always like "so-and-so is so physically imposing" and "so-and-so faces XYZ physical obstacle" and "so-and-so needs to eat/wash/etc." I do generally just try (and OK, often fail, but *try*) to pretend I don't notice how physically mismatched people are, where they are in relation to the exits*, etc. But how could a Chilton frame-job even work logistically?

Anyway, I loved that Will wore his "Hannibal Suit" when he went to "resume therapy." And that it was still some old shirt he ordered from LL Bean in 2003, plus combed hair. THAT'S his "I'm here to seduce you, so I'm going to look just like you, Mr. Fancy" outfit? I mean, the clothes were much more flattering than that jacket he always wears that I hate, and maybe he threw on some pants that actually fit and don't look like they're pleated at the waist (that is, maybe he got some new pair of pants we've never seen before), but it's still a relatively poor showing. At least wear that tan vest, Will, it always looks relatively good and Hannibal also loves to layer. On the other hand, Hannibal already loves Will so, whatever Will's doing must work, I guess.

Anyway, Will is such a badass, I don't know how he does it, he must have *massive* amounts of emotional control. What was going on when he went to point that gun in Hannibal's face? If he were a regular person, I would think he'd just been fantasizing about that in BSHCI but then decided to go with his old plan to catch rather than kill Hannibal. Since it's Will, though, I think it must have been part of his plan somehow, and not just an impulse -- I think maybe he was seeing if Hannibal would attack back, in which case he would know to go with one kind of plan, but since Hannibal didn't, he knew the seduction option was still open and is going that route instead. That's just my instinct right now, though.

*Though I noticed Will was clearly keeping his attention on his/the exits through most of this episode. He kept trying not to go further into the room than the other person, so that he'd always have a clear shot toward the exit. He did get a little iffy about that, though, when he was sort of dancing around the "therapy"/tiny cage room with Jack. Even then, though, he kept going up the stairs, and looking toward the stairs, and moving so that Jack wasn't blocking his path to the stairs. The only scene that was noticeably *not* like that, I thought, was when he went into Hannibal's office and strode past him, putting Hannibal between himself in the door immediately. Though Hannibal's office also has that second door for patients, and weird features like that staircase -- I think that we were mostly supposed to see that Will strode confidently past Hannibal, though, I don't think that we're supposed to think about *all* the possible exits. Though who knows, maybe we're not supposed to think of any of them! Or maybe someone else noticed this, too, and kept better track than I did? It's just something that I tend to notice kind of automatically anyway, so I only had half an eye on it for a while, but I started thinking something specific/purposeful was up when Will wouldn't go further into the room than Mariam Lass and when he was sitting right by the door like a sentinel watching Chilton pack (Chilton didn't find that creepy? He didn't think that Will looked like a guard? I would have been creeped out. But Chilton also was shocked that Will, who had just told him he thought the best way to catch the Ripper was to tell Jack everything, told Jack everything. So who even knows what's going on with him).
posted by rue72 at 1:36 AM on April 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Usually I do not care a whit about spoilers, but I saw a hint on Tumblr at work overnight that drove me from there and Twitter the entire shift so that I wouldn't know too much about what was up the Murder Wizard's impeccably tailored sleeve.

And now I'm home and caught up and it's socially unacceptable to drink at this time of day unless you're talking mimosas and everything is terrible.

I love it.
posted by rewil at 6:49 AM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chilton ends up subsisting for the rest of his life on Ensure and top-shelf martinis.

Wait, wasn't it Mason Verger who ended up like that?
posted by localroger at 7:44 AM on April 12, 2014

So finally saw the episode and the first thing that pops out is that Miriam's hair and eyebrows had been dyed black when she was discovered. Why would Hannibal have done that? Intriguing.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:06 AM on April 12, 2014

I just think she didn't have the time to get her color touched up when she was being Hannibal's experiment.
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 AM on April 12, 2014

Her eyebrows are naturally dark and I think the darkness in her hair was from dirt.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:48 AM on April 12, 2014

Why do they think Chilton could do it? He can't even eat protein. I doubt he can hoist people onto fishing wire or move a paralyzed man or do many of the physical things that the Ripper does.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense unless they assume he has at least one more accomplice. The orderly could have done everything up to catching Hannibal for Chilton, but he was out of the picture when the councilman was put on the tree. They can't believe Chilton did that alone.

But the really important question is: did Jimmy get a stool sample this time?
posted by homunculus at 11:26 AM on April 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think it may be a continuity issue too - iirc, Miriam's hair looks shorter while she's getting processed, but goes back to it's regular length & color after her shower & nap. I've had my hair the length she has in the first scene; when it's that short and pulled back into a ponytail it's nowhere near as long & luxurious as hers is in the post shower scene.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:48 AM on April 12, 2014

On Alana by Cleolinda Jones

"So once upon a time, there was a psychology professor named Alana Bloom."
posted by The Whelk at 4:04 PM on April 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

The problem with doing a show about Hannibal Lecter pre-incarceration is that it's impossible for the audience to be as in the dark as the characters. Everyone knows that Hannibal Lecter is a cannibal. He's famous like Dracula and Darth Vader.

So at first it's all so amusing as we watch him make cannibal puns and smile his secret devilish smile as someone eats his food. He's so clever and striking and stylish and he looks like Mads Mikkelsen. Of course Alana would have crushed on him hard as a student. You know he was the hot teacher on campus.

But now he's killing characters we care about. He's ruining the lives of people we've come to know. And it's awful. Now we get mad at the people who just can't see that it fucking rhymes!

It's going to be so satisfying to finally see him behind bars.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:24 PM on April 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

I actually screamed. That was fucking insane! I had seen a screenshot of the science team processing Chilton, so I figured he'd be framed somehow, but the way it was accomplished was so brilliant. I had been thinking "oh, they'll have Miriam identify him," end of story. But Hannibal leaving his own fingerprint as fake real fake evidence? Moving Gideon into Chilton's house? So great.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:35 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thank you, I didn't want to be the one to post that Cleolinda link.
posted by dogheart at 4:35 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

To expand on that: I loved how, in this episode in particular, the writing team allow Will and Jack to avoid doing the most obvious thing, to see under the superficial frame job to the truth underneath... and then it turns out that Hannibal was playing 11-dimensional chess while they were playing 10.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:50 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Why do they think Chilton could do it?

I didn't have any trouble with this. The incident with Gideon is relatively recent. He'd not have needed the accomplice until recently and until even more recently the Ripper had Miriam, and god knows what she did while under his control. Maybe psycho orderly was involved as well.

And if Hannibal keeps it quiet for a while... I can see it taking a while to confirm that Chilton was framed even if Jack suspects he was and Will knows for damn sure he was.

This really was an incredible play by Hannibal, IMO. He's intended to be a master of improvisation and this feels like just that. Watching Will start to try to outwit him is going to be fucking crazy.
posted by sparkletone at 4:59 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I want to talk about every house we see on this show is both distinct to the characters AND part of unifying, similar aesthetic.

Everything in Chilton's house is new and Aritectual Digest-y, everything in Hannibal's house is either aristocratic and old or shockingly artful and designed.
posted by The Whelk at 5:34 PM on April 12, 2014

Even Miram gets a currently height of fashion, mid 70s European avant garde dorm room.
posted by The Whelk at 5:35 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I know Bryan's talked about their location scouting a few times in interviews. Nothing super deep, just that they try to find places that have a particular feel while serving their needs (I think the most recent such thing was in a walk through question about the observatory).

I don't have much to say about it really, but that you're right. Both the locations and the set dressing on this show are amazing. I know it's Toronto and I've seen lots of generic-feeling stuff shot there, but this show feels like it's in its own cohesive world that doesn't look like anything but itself.
posted by sparkletone at 5:57 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chilton is Fight Club's Ed Norton without the Brad Pitt alter ego.
posted by localroger at 5:59 PM on April 12, 2014

Yeah it's all very particular to this kind of late to mid 70s arty European taste, brutalism and the like, while at the same time being VERY contemporary to current trends that are all referencing that look. It's to say anything about the set decor aside from the fact that it looks like someone decided to populate the photographs on Curbed's design porn tag with serial killers.
posted by The Whelk at 6:39 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

This really was an incredible play by Hannibal, IMO. He's intended to be a master of improvisation and this feels like just that. Watching Will start to try to outwit him is going to be fucking crazy.

I actually think that the Chilton frame job is incredibly weak, but the point of it is how incredibly weak it is -- the weakness of the frame job is the joke, the reason for the frame job. It's a farce.

Will says when he goes to that abandoned farmhouse with Jack, "this is theater." The "theater" isn't just the artistically staged bodies, and Mariam's staged "discovery," but also this whole farcical "search" for the Ripper.

Why was Will even at that farmhouse? Jack had apologized to Will for thinking he was crazy (when Will was saying Hannibal is the Ripper and the person who framed him), and Will said *again* that Jack should have listened to him (when Will was saying that Hannibal is the Ripper and the person who framed him). But then, as soon as Will's out of the BSHCI, he's at the farmhouse ostensibly "profiling" the Ripper for Jack, "reading" the crime scene. Will has *already* fingered the Ripper and has told Jack who the Ripper is ad nauseam, and they know just where to find him and just how he works -- what is there for Will to "profile" or "read" at the crime scene at this point? What is there that Jack (and Will, Alana, Chilton, everybody) doesn't already know?

There's no true search for the Ripper, there's only the *show* of a search for the Ripper. And now, Will isn't even playing along with the "search," really -- he just says it's theater. That's pretty much it for his help with the "search," because what else can he even say? It is all theater, a farce, it's all fake and they know it's fake but they keep playing along, taking their cues and moving to their marks and saying their lines.

The Chilton "frame up" is theater in the same way as Will "profiling" the Ripper is theater at this point -- Chilton has more physical proof than anyone else on the show (save maybe Will, at this point) that he's *not* the Ripper, because Chilton has a relatively strong alibi for at least some of the killings and they're also a likely physical impossibility for him. Framing him for *Gideon* alone would have been possible, maybe, but all the Ripper's victims? It's ludicrous. The whole point, I think, is that it's ludicrous, but they'll all pretend to believe it anyway.

That's where I think Hannibal is being smart (and a smartass) -- he's giving people the barest excuse to believe he isn't the Ripper, crafting the tiniest little fig leaf, and the FBI is (and especially Jack and Alana are) running with that wafer-thin pretext with all their worth. It's a joke.

I think to Hannibal, it's basically like staging a puppet show. He wants to see how ludicrous he can make the story, how far he can push everyone to deny reality, before the show falls apart (if it ever does. He served Gideon his own leg, and all Gideon said about it was "compliments to the chef," after all).

Will and Chilton are the only people currently alive who are willing to acknowledge that the facade is a facade, so Hannibal is terrorizing Chilton, and Will is showing up to say he'll "resume therapy" and play along (he even came in costume). I think all is right in Hannibal's world. I don't think that he particularly cares about getting caught or whether the charges on Chilton will stick, except that I think he likes the game of making it harder and harder for everyone to deny reality and then see them rise to the occasion and find a way to deny it anyway.
posted by rue72 at 6:43 PM on April 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

Alternate series title: Game of Bones.
posted by localroger at 7:07 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal's staging of Chilton's house was like Hannibal doing Gideon doing the Ripper. The Ripper's greatest hits. The wound man, the disemboweled agent, Gideon with 'steaks' carved off of him. Chilton wakes up covered in blood with weapons in his hands, and as we've seen, Hannibal takes great care never to be so messy. (Though that will change as we see in the flash-forward.)

It's like he wanted to make sure everything pointed at Chilton, but he couldn't bring himself to make Chilton out to be as careful, clever, and meticulous as he is.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:11 PM on April 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

I actually think that the Chilton frame job is incredibly weak, but the point of it is how incredibly weak it is

It's definitely weaker than his frame up of Will. And your thoughts about it being theater I think are mostly spot on... But at the same time, framing Chilton is exactly the thing to do in the current situation. He wants to keep the ball in the air. He might not be able to put off certain inevitable things, but for now he wants to keep the game going. Framing Chilton buys time and then some when you add in the way a brainwashed Miriam is messing with things. The frame job itself is weak, but it is a great move.

It's like he wanted to make sure everything pointed at Chilton, but he couldn't bring himself to make Chilton out to be as careful, clever, and meticulous as he is.

I have to believe that Abigail's death was merciful/painless and done only as a last resort. In the same way, the framing of Will was (to Hannibal's mind only maybe) done... mercifully and only as a last resort. As I said in all caps at the time: Chilton's frame up is what he does when he really does not like you.
posted by sparkletone at 7:19 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's theatre

Framing Chilton buries the Ripper and makes everyone who really wanted this to go away VERY HAPPY - its a farce, a facile happy ending that everyone is going to be so happy to embrace and rush to cause it makes life so much easier.

Hannibal is once again mocking the people sent to get him, showing them how in control he is, putting on this bit of Chilton Ex Machina.

Except for Will, who is now starring in his own one man play WILLIAM LECTER, A LIFE. for an audience of one.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on April 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Framing Chilton buries the Ripper and makes everyone who really wanted this to go away VERY HAPPY - its a farce, a facile happy ending that everyone is going to be so happy to embrace and rush to cause it makes life so much easier.

Yeah, how many people in the upper-crusty psychiatrists of Baltimore society are going to say of Chilton, "Well, I never liked that man."? Whereas when Hannibal is eventually caught, it's going to be a huge blow. People want to be in Hannibal's circle and invited to his dinners. They want to be thought well of by him.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:54 PM on April 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can't wait to see Chilton back with a full beard shot through with gray on his left cheek, madness trickling through his smirking voice as he describes how Lecter's pulse never got over 85.

Does anyone know if Lee Pace is starring in any episodes this season? I remember an interview where Bryan Fuller said he agreed Lee would play one of the guests at Hannibal's last dinner party.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:57 PM on April 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

No Lee Pace this season. He's someone Fuller's said he would love to have on (not clear in what role). The person playing Mason seems like a good choice though, which I guess we'll find out soon.

I'd love for Lee Pace to be kind of like Gideon in that he's more of a recurring person than a case of the week and plays a total loon who enjoyed Hannibal's cooking no matter what...
posted by sparkletone at 9:15 PM on April 12, 2014

I keep being caught between delight at the murder-wizard stylings of the "EMPATH AND CANNIBAL" show, and those fridge-logic moments of "well, that makes no sense whatsoever..."
posted by rmd1023 at 5:56 AM on April 13, 2014

DOES Chilton have alibis, though? We know he's unpopular. He probably spends (spent?) a lot of time along in his giant white house. He could be putting on his physical weakness as a disguise. He (of course) fits the profile, and if you look at his actions over the past few episodes, they could easily be interpreted as an attempt to frame Hannibal. He even has a really good motive for killing Gideon! I'm not convinced that it's so very weak of a frame job.

Most of all, I think it's an effective frame job because the way it was accomplished means that every scrap of evidence implicated Hannibal, including everything Will has said, can be chalked up to Chilton's manipulation.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Of course, I just now realize what Chilton's house, white, smooth, and translucent reminded me of.

An operating theatre.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 AM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Michael Pitt (Tommy Gnosis in Hedwig) will be playing Mason.
posted by pearlybob at 7:12 AM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Whelk: Very much so. IIRC, Chilton said Gideon was in his spare room - but the walls looked tiled. This is not a typical friendly guest room.

OTOH, my god, that windowed wine cellar. It reminded me of a home-scaled version of the glass-enclosed wine tower at Aureole in Las Vegas.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:19 AM on April 13, 2014

Turns out the ripper is actually the architect who designed all these fabulous but oddly similar homes.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 AM on April 13, 2014

Here's a fascinating article on psychopathy. BTW, the Jon Ronson book mentioned in the article is a great read, highly recommended.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:08 AM on April 13, 2014

Raúl Esparza is a great actor, really loved the scene when Chilton wakes up and discovers the frame job.
posted by Pendragon at 9:09 AM on April 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Here's someone's take on Chilton's house.
posted by PussKillian at 9:18 AM on April 13, 2014

I have to assume that the "guest room" line was something that should have been changed at some point between scripting and location scouting and shooting. Because otherwise Chilton's guest room has stainless steel and tile walls, and is also in the basement, directly across from the wine cellar. And that would just be... weird as shit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:59 AM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

That' exactly what I thought, too. Maybe they set up the shot, realized that it wasn't going to work visually and changed the location at the last minute?
posted by echolalia67 at 10:08 AM on April 13, 2014

No Chilton just hates his guests
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 AM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Could it have been a guest bathroom? (doesn't explain why it would open up into the "public" space of the basement though, I guess).
posted by sparklemotion at 10:22 AM on April 13, 2014

I just assumed he wasn't being literal when he said where Gideon was in his house?
posted by sparkletone at 10:28 AM on April 13, 2014

This highlight video is titled "A Surprise in the Guest Room".
posted by sparklemotion at 10:32 AM on April 13, 2014

"What are you talking about slaughter house chic is all the rage in guest suites!"
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 AM on April 13, 2014

Also, that's more light switches (well, decora settable dimmers) than anyone has in a guest room. I think it's the guest prep kitchen.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:40 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Okay RED is not the colour of MORAL CONTAMINATION it is the colour of the RED PILL.

In the final scene, Hannibal is wearing REALLY DARK BLUE, the colour of the BLUE PILL.

HE IS GONNA GET FOOLED BY WILL, BUT GOOD.

And rue72, you are absolutely right - it is obvious at a glance that Chilton is not physically strong enough to have done all this without an accomplice. Duh. And what about when he was away getting the injury that led him to this point, I mean, come on.

THESE PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE IN HANNIBAL! UNTIL THEIR DYING BREATH! POSSIBLY AFTERWARDS!

I just loved how DONE Will is with them all. He's well past the phase of anticipation of feeling contempt, he's just feeling the contempt now. Boy is he ever.

And yes I agree that I (Bedelia) should return to the show to make people (specifically Will) (and not unrelatedly, myself) happy again. We both deserve to be happy after what we've been through.

But the main thing is that THE PROUD SHIP S.S. DECOY HANNIGRAM SETS SAIL AGAIN.

And is gonna torpedo you. We'll torpedo Hannibloom. We'll torpedo you. We'll torpedo Willana. We'll torpedo Preller. We'll torpedo Chilly Willy. We'll torpedo ourselves.
posted by tel3path at 2:56 PM on April 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh and rue72, Will is not - or not particularly - disabled, it's mostly Alana's idea that he has an empathy "disorder". Some of the effects of it are maladaptive (the overwhelming stress) but it's basically the dysfunctional family system projecting its weaknesses onto him, and trying to flip his strengths into weaknesses so they can believe they are strong and healthy. That's all.

Chilton is somewhat lacking in guts, you might say.

We all know what Gideon is, poor fucker. Someone the system cut away piece by piece until there was nothing left. Hard to hang onto anything in this life. Hard to get it, hard to keep it.

Miriam Lassie, who is doing her job fetching and carrying for Hannibal and doing his bidding, is one-armed because I think the next season is going to be The Fugitive, they said? And I think she's maybe going to be the One-Armed Man, somehow. And in the meantime, she's quite 'armless to 'annibal.
posted by tel3path at 3:03 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chilton is somewhat lacking in guts, you might say.

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.
posted by localroger at 3:10 PM on April 13, 2014

I have this theory that being on the wrong side of those interogation tables makes you talk all abstract and poetical. It's just a side effect.
posted by The Whelk at 5:38 PM on April 13, 2014

Oh and rue72, Will is not - or not particularly - disabled, it's mostly Alana's idea that he has an empathy "disorder". Some of the effects of it are maladaptive (the overwhelming stress) but it's basically the dysfunctional family system projecting its weaknesses onto him, and trying to flip his strengths into weaknesses so they can believe they are strong and healthy. That's all.

How *are* we supposed to read that "empathy disorder"? I don't really know if it's supposed to be fake within the show or not? I'm even still confused about the whole "unstable" thing? Is "unstable" and "empathy disorder" just the show's way of labeling the stigma (within the show) of being willing to empathize with the *wrong* people? Is it just some weird status thing? Like "oh, Will is always slumming it, isn't that insane? Something must be wrong with him!" Or is it not supposed to be as abstract as that?

To me, Will seems trustworthy and stable, and he's definitely my "POV vehicle" into the show, because he's predictable in his reactions, he keeps his temper, and even though he sometimes lies, he at least tries not to lie to *himself.* Also, even when he was sick out of his mind and she was scary as hell, he was still kind to Georgia. He can be bitchy and unfriendly, but that's really neither here nor there to me because I trust him to be...I guess, upstanding? Fundamentally kind? That's my "Ode to Will," I guess! God help me, I genuinely do care about the character, I don't want to see Hannibal tear him apart (again).

Will is acting relatively DIE HARD right now, but I'm really worried that he's playing into Hannibal's hands. He might *feel* all kinds of bad feelings toward Hannibal right now, he might *know* all kinds of horrible things about him, but everything he's *doing* is according to Hannibal's rules and following Hannibal's lead -- he proved himself to Hannibal by sending him those sick little love letter(s) via Brown and maybe Gideon, so Hannibal rewarded him by dropping those exonerating fishing lures into his lap and *letting* him go free. Then Will tested to see if Hannibal was actually pissed or wanted to keep playing their "friendship" game by ambushing him with the gun in Hannibal's kitchen, and Hannibal let him know that he knew Will still wasn't a killer, and that he still wanted to still play -- so then Will went right to "resuming therapy" and taking his seat in the lair. Gideon and Chilton knew exactly what Hannibal is capable of and what's underneath the person suit and it didn't protect either of them -- what is Will doing differently to protect himself, and to *stay* himself instead of a puppet/patsy of Hannibal's like both of those men became?

I think Hannibal is trying to "shape" Will into what will be his pièce de résistance as the Ripper; instead of transforming yet another person into a victim and food, he'll transform someone (Will) into a killer and a cannibal. Also, instead of setting up someone else to take the Ripper's fall, he'll actually be *turning* someone (Will) into the Ripper.

I think that Hannibal's trying to seep into Will's mind and transform/carve/consume Will from the inside out -- Hannibal was the first to say that the danger with Will's job is that when he opens his mind to get into these killers' heads, he's also opening up a way for them to get into his. When Will was in the BSHCI, he said that his own internal voice had been replaced with Hannibal's. Maybe he was lying, but seeing how thoroughly GJH hijacked Will's internal life before, and how Will has changed to behave and think much more like (artificial, arrogant) Hannibal since he's been imprisoned, and because that's *exactly* how Hannibal works anyway, I think that Hannibal really has seeped into Will's mind already.

Hannibal's Achilles Heel is arrogance, and I think that if he does manage to hijack Will's sense of self, that'll become Will's Achilles Heel, too. I'm afraid that Hannibal and Will will just keep playing their current game of "Hannibal plays nice until Will finds his footing --> Hannibal shows a flash of the monster --> Will responds by giving him a little show of force, to appease him or prove himself to Hannibal somehow --> Hannibal rewards him for that by playing nice again," and that, as Will becomes more and more like Hannibal -- more arrogant, less fearful -- his shows of force will become more and more brutal, until Will's "shows of force" are just as bad as Hannibal's monstrousness. I'm afraid that it'll end with Will thinking he's *winning* as he betrays himself.

What I picture as worst case scenario, is Will destroying/killing/eating someone (Alana? Jack?) while looking Hannibal full in the face, convinced that he's proving to Hannibal how strong and superior to Hannibal that he is, while he instead proves that Hannibal has taken him over and won completely.
posted by rue72 at 7:08 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

If Hannibal wins, does he get to eat Joffrey?

Oh god please you don't know where he's been.

I see your point. He doesn't look very palatable.
posted by homunculus at 10:23 PM on April 13, 2014

I think how far Will is going to have to go in sailing the SS FAKE HANNIGRAHAM is going to be the thrust of the rest of reason, Hannibal is going to want proof of Will's devotion and Will is going to to very compromised and dragged out by the end, how much of Hannibal is he going to bring back with him? How much of the void is going to stare back?

True true. For right now, I guess what I'm wondering is: how much is Will actually resisting Hannibal and how much is he only fooling himself into thinking/pretending that he's resisting Hannibal?

In the same way that the ludicrous frame job on Chilton created a teeny tiny fig leaf that allowed Jack, Alana, and the BAU to "believe" that Hannibal isn't the Ripper, do Will's ineffective attacks on Hannibal create a teeny tiny fig leaf that allows him to "believe" that he isn't also still a puppet performing in Hannibal's show?
posted by rue72 at 11:08 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

On the last day of voting, we still have a HUGE lead in that stupid Hulu poll thing. Woo. Woo, I say.

Hannibal wins Hulu tournament, validates Todd VanDerWerff for 2014
posted by homunculus at 11:34 PM on April 13, 2014

The way I see it, Will was wearing blue at the beginning of the episode (blue pill) when in confrontation with Alana and during the phase where he was going round to shoot Hannibal. He may have actually intended to do so and damn the consequences, but not been able to do it. The hook being "if you kill me, who will answer your questions?"

During the facepalm stage, he's wearing green as Chilton goes through the whole "oh sinner man" shtick. Green being his own emblematic colour.

Now he goes to Hannibal's office with his hair like Astroboy and wearing a red shirt. It's Hannibal who is wearing dark blue at that point. The Reality Ball is being held by whoever is wearing red, I think, and there is an Idiot Ball each for those who are wearing blue. Jack and Alana are wearing blue earlier in that scene with the Science Bros as they go "wtf". I think the Science Bros - who are angels, BTW, cos they have on white lab coats and are messengers of truth - might have to put their collective foot down at a certain point.
posted by tel3path at 12:22 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

But yes, we are entering the "Jesus is tempted by the Devil" stage of the narrative. I think we've had the most fun we're going to have for a while, in this episode.

ZOMG though, hilarious.
posted by tel3path at 12:23 AM on April 14, 2014

I think Hannibal's endgame will be "kill Alana, then we run off to Florence and be murder husbands."

I think he will orchestrate a rapprochement between Will and Alana before he does this, so it is a true test of Will's devotion.
posted by tel3path at 6:33 AM on April 14, 2014

He's also looking for a confession " why don't you tell me". Will needs a hundred percent proof so he's not just Crazy Murder Accusing Graham, thus the haircut and the shirt and the tone of the voice and the NO REALLY I FIND YOU INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE WHERE'S YIUR BASEMENT?
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

rue72, you're right, the gun ambush in the kitchen was a test. He did want to see how Hannibal would react: more gaming, or just taking the opportunity to smash Will to bits? Does he go around telling everybody (such as Alana) help help, this sick madman is ambushing me with guns again, why do you not protect me from this loose cannon.

I think Will must have been in control of himself the whole time. He was able to cock the gun in Hannibal's face, but then back off completely right after -- to me, that seems like it would take a massive amount of control/composure. If anger (or fear) had been anywhere close to bubbling over in him, right after pretending-but-not-actually shooting Hannibal, he would have had to burn some of that anger off somehow -- he would have had to pistol whip Hannibal or throw something off the counter or something. He didn't even seem that aggressive in the scene to me, actually -- barely menaced Hannibal, didn't corner him, let Hannibal futz with the fridge door, only just started getting closer to him when he decided to end things by cocking the gun, etc. He wasn't exactly tearing shit up in there.

The only moments in that scene outside of the test, I thought, were:

-- when Hannibal talked about how Will would get his questions answered, you could practically see a light bulb going off over Will's head, and I think he was realizing he could ask (or Hannibal *was* asking) to "resume therapy."

-- when Will said that he wasn't innocent and that Hannibal had seen to that. We already know that that's true -- Hannibal made sure that Will had no illusions that nobody could help him or maybe even cared about him (except Hannibal *siiiiiiigh*) when he got Will deathly ill and railroaded on five murder charges with nary a peep from anybody else.

I wish, though, that instead of just lying in wait in Hannibal's kitchen, he'd instead gone to Hannibal's bedroom, taken his favorite outfit out of Hannibal's closet, torched the rest of Hannibal's clothes, and then worn that sole remaining outfit to therapy. Just to see what Hannibal would say, if nothing else. But hey, there's still time, maybe he can do that for their session next week.

Will needs a hundred percent proof so he's not just Crazy Murder Accusing Graham, thus the haircut and the shirt and the tone of the voice and the NO REALLY I FIND YOU INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE WHERE'S YIUR BASEMENT?

I don't see why Will would want a confession right then, when nobody was around to hear it and it would have been under duress anyway.

Also, if he hasn't accepted that everyone is going to assume he's nuts and disregard what he has to say by now, he really does need to get his head checked. I also think he must get that, or he wouldn't be doing this "seduction" thing with Hannibal and he wouldn't have been telling Chilton what to do practically in a mocking sing-song voice as though knowing he'd get written off the second he said it (and Chilton listens to him more than anyone else does!) (well, aside from Hannibal, sort of. But his sort of listening is different).
posted by rue72 at 8:27 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

thus the haircut and the shirt and the tone of the voice and the NO REALLY I FIND YOU INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE WHERE'S YIUR BASEMENT?

If you rewatch that scene and pay attention to his body language... I swear he's precisely imitating Hannibal's body language.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 AM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I look foward to William Lecter here creeping me out for the next few weeks.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

You know what, I hope Gillian Anderson is free throughout season 3 during which the show could just be called Bedelia.
posted by tel3path at 9:23 AM on April 14, 2014

I just the show to occasionally cut away from all the grim, snowy horror for a brief shot of Bedelia getting a massage, sipping wine, outfitting her volcano fortresss lair, etc
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Did Miriam get a gun from somewhere, or did someone give her a gun?

Jack said, didn't he, that he'd shoot the Ripper for doing this to her.

Miriam has found (or thinks she's found) the Ripper, and shoots him with a gun that SOMEBODY gave her? Who?
posted by tel3path at 9:49 AM on April 14, 2014

Speaking of filming fanfics...

I read this Hannigram crackfic once where Will finds out that it rhymes, and he is totally shocked and all ready to break up with Hannibal, and everyone has already known for a long time. "What! You can't break up with him! He's such a catch! If he were a vegan would you break up with him because he's causing global warming by eating all our trees?" Will confronts Bev on the issue and she declares that she doesn't care, so long as he doesn't eat her.

So maybe the timeline is a bit mixed up (RIP Bev :-( but yes, they have taken that fanfic and they have filmed it.
posted by tel3path at 9:52 AM on April 14, 2014

She grabbed Jack's gun from the holster.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh right.
posted by tel3path at 9:53 AM on April 14, 2014

I hope Bedelia gets her own show and magazine as a lifestyle guru in some remote country where Hannibal somehow can't get her.
posted by tel3path at 9:54 AM on April 14, 2014

"But he kills and eats people!"

"No one's perfect!"

"He framed me for MURDER."

"Look at those cheekbones!"
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I got the feeling that Jack may have caught on -- at least subconsciously -- to the real game when he saw Chilton cowering in the snow. But probably *only* subconsciously.
posted by kewb at 10:06 AM on April 14, 2014

These characters need to go back to Microeconomics 101. Right now, Hannibal is offering Jack and Alana incentives to do what he wants -- he is offering Jack easy-to-catch, unlikable/unsavory pseudo-Rippers right and left, and he's offering Alana her perfect boyfriend, a perfectly composed and "stable" man wearing a well-coiffed version of a Will suit. Of course Jack and Alana are doing things his way!

Meanwhile, Chilton stumbles into Jack's office being like: do this for me, do that for me, do this other thing for me. Paraphrase of Chilton this past episode: "I am able/willing to meet exactly zero of your needs and what I have to say is likely to make your life more difficult/dangerous/complicated, but I want an FBI escort, blah blah." Of course Jack's not going to help him out, what's in it for Jack?
posted by rue72 at 10:17 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I disagree that Jack has been fooled by Hannibal. All episode he kept saying he wasn't willing to just blindly buy Hannibal's story, to believe Miriam when she said it wasn't him, etc. After what happened to Will, he won't be so easily convinced.

Yes, he arrested Chilton. The man had three dead bodies in his house, you literally can't not arrest him. But I'm not convinced that Jack had made up his mind between Chilton and Hannibal even after Miriam shot him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:29 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yet more CHILTON LIVES ammo.
posted by sparkletone at 10:38 AM on April 14, 2014

Oh man. Calling it now: Chilton's gonna be the last man standing! His book death was ONLY HEAVILY IMPLIED. Not on screen!

Count me in the camp of Jack believing Will and those two playing a long game against Hannibal right now. With ice fishing.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:46 AM on April 14, 2014

if Chilton lives then his attitude in Silence makes much more sense.
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I assume Chilton will live through the end of the season. He's the comic relief punching bag - he's too much of an asshole to kill off. Also, he provides the tie with (and continuity for) BHCI.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:51 AM on April 14, 2014

Looking at Chilton's excellent blazers ..oh oh
posted by The Whelk at 11:02 AM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

At this point Chilton almost getting killed each season should become a running gag. After all we know he's there for SOTL but Harris doesn't imply it was easy for him to get there.
posted by localroger at 12:20 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

So in Season 1, Chilton is the poor man's Alana Bloom (both worked with Gideon, both fascinated by Will Graham); later that season and in early S2, he's the poor man's Lecter. Now he's transitioned into the poor man's Will Graham. I can't wait for his turn modeling himself on one of the Sassy Science Team or, dare we dream, Freddie Lounds.
posted by kewb at 12:27 PM on April 14, 2014

And Alana was in Lassie's line of fire. I wonder if she will take the same punitive stance towards Lassie, that shooting Chilton is not excused by what was done to her? Or will she think it's just fine because hey, it's Chilton?

Or will she yell at Jack again for again putting a vulnerable person in a position where they're provoked to kill against their better nature? Will Jack blame himself and beat himself up? And carry on not listening?
posted by tel3path at 12:45 PM on April 14, 2014

Was reminded today that Alana's dog was named by a fan on twitter.
posted by sparkletone at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2014

I suppose Will and Jack have to play the cat-and-mouse game with Hannibal because it would be too much trouble to put a couple of 'red-shirt' agents on the case. They could like tail him or something like the way cops do sometimes. The FBI does have more agents don't they? But I guess Hannibal would see through that pretty quickly and make dumplings out of the agents' eyeballs. This is a minor gripe for me though because my thirst for compelling drama wants the cat-and-mouse game so very much.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2014

After all we know he's there for SOTL but Harris doesn't imply it was easy for him to get there.

I don't think we know this at all. Bryan Fuller has said several times that they're sticking to the spirit of the Harris novels, not the letter. Chilton may survive until SOTL-era in this TV version but we have no guarantee. There could be another administrator there. I can't think of any other named characters at BHCI that could step into Chilton's role but we have quite a bit left of season 2 plus all of season 3 to develop new characters before we get to the time of the Harris books.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:37 PM on April 14, 2014

Oh fuck

If one of the three major deaths happens in ep 10 and bedelia comes back in ep 10, that means they're killing my character off. Because ya know, her surviving long enough to find happiness with Will, that would be a good thing.

I wonder if hannibal makes will kill bedelia.

I bet we end the season with dark!will, too. Oh bollocks

Such levity and happiness are but brief moments in an ocean of bad stuff as far as the eye can see.
posted by tel3path at 1:41 PM on April 14, 2014

Thats why we hold on to the small moments we have left.

I really want Bedelia Not To Get Et. I think she's more useful as One Who Got Away. We need at least one character who can match him in smarts AND wardrobe.

I'm calling it. Last episode. Will attacks Verger.
posted by The Whelk at 1:44 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Someone in ask metafilter is trying to name one of the chairs on the show

WHAT IS THINE DESIGN?
posted by The Whelk at 2:14 PM on April 14, 2014

Let us gather rosebuds while we may, and think upon the magnificent hannibloomdecoygram triangle.

Where all sense of proportion and grasp of reality are lost, never to be found again.
posted by tel3path at 2:27 PM on April 14, 2014

I disagree that Jack has been fooled by Hannibal. All episode he kept saying he wasn't willing to just blindly buy Hannibal's story, to believe Miriam when she said it wasn't him, etc. After what happened to Will, he won't be so easily convinced.

I think of course Jack *knows* it's Hannibal and that it can't be Chilton. Jack and Will were discussing it openly when they were at the abandoned farmhouse, etc. But it's like Will's lawyer told him at the trial -- it's not about whether the jury believes you're innocent, it's about whether the jury *wants* you to be innocent.

Jack has reasons to want Hannibal to be innocent, but he has no reason to want Chilton to be innocent. So he's going to say that Hannibal's innocent and Chilton's not. It doesn't matter what he knows, it matters what he wants.

Same thing for Alana, though she wants different things from Hannibal than Jack does, so Hannibal is making her want him to be innocent in different ways. He's providing her with a boyfriend, instead of providing her with a patsy. Same diff, though, I think.

I don't think that anybody is fooling anyone. That's what's so depressing.

Anyway, I was also wondering what Will was up to when he was telling Chilton to confess everything to Jack, because I don't see how that could have helped Chilton, or frankly anybody, at all. It made me think of the Prisoner's Dilemma, which made me think of game theory in general, which got me remembering the Stag Hunt.

I'm thinking that Will was playing the Stag Hunt "with" Jack in this past episode, in which case:

Stag = Hannibal
Hare = Chilton
Players = Jack, Will

If one player's choices are on the horizontal axis and the other player's choices are on the vertical axis:

...........Stag............Hare

Stag.....2, 2.............0, 1

Hare.....1,0..............1, 1

It's a trust/social cooperation game. The basis of it is, one player on his own can get the Hare, but if the players work together they can get the Stag. If neither player trusts the other, they can both decide to get a Hare, which would give them a payoff of 1 each. If both players trust each other, they can both get the Stag, which would give them the (better) payoff of 2 each. The really shitty scenario is, if one player trusts and the other doesn't -- the player who trusts gets 0 payoff and the player who doesn't still gets a payoff of 1.

I think that Will was thinking that, if he and Jack could trust each other to work as a team, Jack would have to let the Hare, aka Chilton, get away for now, in the interests of getting the Stag, aka Hannibal. But Jack just went ahead and moved to take the Hare anyway, so Jack got a mediocre payoff (payoff = 1) and Will trusted (he called Jack) and got screwed (payoff = 0).

I think that Chilton was also simultaneously involved in a Prisoner's Dilemma game. I sort of don't agree with how the Prisoner's Dilemma conventionally assigns values because it doesn't match up with common sense (because plea bargains have to usually seem like better deals than what people would get if they don't confess but are found guilty at trial, or else nobody would ever take plea bargains), but I think that the conventional way it's set up is:

.......................Cooperation........Defection

Cooperation........-1, -1................-3, 0

Defection............0, -3................-2,-2

Chilton has to be one of the players, but I don't know if the other player would be Will or Hannibal. If it's Will, then he's obviously going to cooperate (ie, tell Jack everything). If Chilton also cooperates, they each have a mediocre payoff (each have a payoff = -1). If Chilton doesn't cooperate (payoff = 0) that's better for Chilton, but worse for Will (payoff = -3). On the other hand, if the other player is Hannibal, then he's obviously going to defect (ie, tell Jack lies). If Chilton cooperates, that leaves Chilton in a really shit place (payoff =-3), but if Chilton also defects, then that leaves Chilton in a worse place than if he'd paired his story with Will's but in a better place than if he cooperates on his own (payoff = -2).

So I think what happened was maybe a miscommunication -- Will was thinking that he and Chilton were the players, and was trying to align his story with Chilton's. Chilton was thinking he was playing Hannibal, though, so tried to mitigate the damage he was already facing (via Hannibal's defection) by defecting, too.

I guess Will was correct(ish), because he's worse off for Chilton refusing to corroborate his story, whereas Hannibal is, if anything, better off. But on the other hand, Chilton was the one who get the *major* hit, I definitely wouldn't say that his payoff = 0. So maybe this is the wrong game altogether! (Or maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way somehow?).

Anyway, those are the only classic games that I know. Does anybody know if there's a classic game that Hannibal and Will could be playing together right now? Or Alana and anybody? Or Jack and anyone aside from Will? Obviously, the writers aren't putting together a little matrix for each character in relations to each other character, but it's pretty fun to think about.
posted by rue72 at 3:09 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Saw a photo on tumblr and thought " oh that's a good photomanip. will and Hannibal all up in each other's face."

It wasn't a manip, it was a still from the next episode.

Eep.

( shoves coal into the engines of SS FAKE HANNIGRAHAM )
posted by The Whelk at 3:35 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I was actually thinking of chess! But I am a very bad chess player.

Is there any game played on a board that looks like a honeycomb?

In demotion chess, a queen can be demoted to pawn (for example) and any piece can make not only its own moves but those of a lower ranked piece, but it is demoted as soon as it does so: http://www.chessvariants.org/usualeq.dir/potentialdemotion.html
posted by tel3path at 3:45 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

If Will does a Clannibal on us for realz i shall be most displeased. Will, hon, he's just a fling (preferably by the sock suspenders across the grand canyon). He is not boyfriend material at all. Don't make any big life changes around him, like running off to argentina.

Oh god if season 3 is like the fugitive will better not be the fugitive because if he is trying to say one-armed Lassie did it even i wouldn't believe it, and i'll have seen it and all.

You know i think hannibal does dog-train people and i think miriam is named lassie for a reason, and i wonder if we'll find she's been hannibal's murder apprentice all this time.
posted by tel3path at 3:49 PM on April 14, 2014

I am kinda hoping it's revealed Miram was totally helping him kill people just as he starts to make Will ...totally help him kill people.

Don't fall for the Vampire's Kiss Will! He's not boyfriend material! Always keep your pure shining vengeance tightly bottled inside! Uncover al his horrible crimes THEN SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE.
posted by The Whelk at 3:51 PM on April 14, 2014

You know i think hannibal does dog-train people and i think miriam is named lassie for a reason, and i wonder if we'll find she's been hannibal's murder apprentice all this time.

Her last name's Lass, rather than Lassie though.

That said, I am 100% on board with the idea that she's been a brain-washed murder apprentice since Hannibal got her.
posted by sparkletone at 3:52 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

It would be a great hand wave to hiw he did all these things, he had an Igor.
posted by The Whelk at 3:57 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yes, i know her real name is lass, i was just putting that subtle clue in there for effect
posted by tel3path at 4:01 PM on April 14, 2014

She didn't shoot someone else by her own hand, though.

Har har. No really. If ever there were a case for saying a person was made to kill, this was it. She really was far too vulnerable and really was not handled sensitively enough. This is in addition to whatever influences Lecter placed upon her.

I see there are people in the fandom condemning her and I'm not saying she did a good thing, but anyone in her situation might do this. It's like they treated her like she'd just popped down the road to buy a newspaper and not at all like someone who'd been traumatized for two years and unearthed two minutes ago.
posted by tel3path at 4:06 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, miriam "i know you never stopped looking for me" you useless fuckheads, and then the shock of "the ripper isn't caught?"

Yeah. The faith in others will be the last thing to go. If in fact she had it.

I like how jack confesses this and then veers away from it with "and i should have kept looking for you will" to get a "NO jack you just had to listen to me" but dear jack has already entered dreamland.

Miriam loses an arm, but will ends up with his own palm permanently grafted to his face.
posted by tel3path at 4:12 PM on April 14, 2014

Will and Jack are playing Go Fish and Hannibal's playing Hungry Hungry Hippos. Alana's playing Mystery Date, and she got a dud instead of a dream. She just doesn't know it yet.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:16 PM on April 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Due to the way last episode was shot, I don't think Miriam is consciously helping Hannibal. Those scenes with the strobe lights and shadowy figure seemed pretty clearly intended to show her actual memories. I really do think she believes it was Chilton, and I look forward to seeing her reaction when she discovers she shot an innocent man. (Well, more innocent than Hannibal at any rate.)

Also, my hope for season 3: Hannibal and Fake!Dark!Will Thelma-and-Louise it across America, with Johnny Law in hot pursuit!
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:19 PM on April 14, 2014

On a totally different note, something just occurred to me. Will's got this whole extended fishing metaphor thing worked out, where he is the lure... at first I was thinking his endgame was to capture Hannibal and exonerate himself, but now that he's exonerated, I've sort of shifted my thinking. I don't think he cares what happens to him. I think he'd do absolutely anything to ruin Hannibal- not 'bring him to justice,' but RUIN him- even if it completely destroys Will himself. Which is why he's exposing himself to Hannibal's coercive therapy again. It's not that he's cocky and thinks he can completely resist Hannibal's influence, it's that he doesn't really care. Because in fishing, you can't be too precious about damaging or destroying your lures, or you'll never catch anything...
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:28 PM on April 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

It seems a bit odd that he's been working all this time to convince Miriam she is Chilton's victim. Unless his conditioning techniques are so flexible he's been able to keep that an open thing until just recently, ready to program at a moment's notice? Then again he might have ID'd Chilton as a valuable patsy a long time ago, thus his high level of readiness for the frame job. Either way there are interesting derivative implications.
posted by localroger at 4:35 PM on April 14, 2014

I think the key in predicting this show is "what would be the most emotionally devestating thing that could possibly happen, even if it's logically improbable?"

I've basically thrown out logic with this show.
posted by dogheart at 4:36 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

It seems a bit odd that he's been working all this time to convince Miriam she is Chilton's victim.

I don't think that's all he's been doing with her for two years or whatever the timeframe is. Given how rapidly he was able to totally fuck up Will's headspace and then some, it makes more sense to me to think of the anti-Chilton programming as something that was done rather recently just before he left her where the FBI would find her.
posted by sparkletone at 5:12 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Because in fishing, you can't be too precious about damaging or destroying your lures, or you'll never catch anything...

I think the play with the psycho orderly definitely shows that Will wants to get rid of Hannibal by any means necessary regardless of the personal cost to himself. When he was institutionalized, that's all he could do, but now that he's free he can do much better than "merely" killing him. That's partly what the scene in Hannibal's kitchen was about.
posted by sparkletone at 5:15 PM on April 14, 2014

It seems a bit odd that he's been working all this time to convince Miriam she is Chilton's victim.

I don't think he has, but I think that he must have primed her some kind of "trigger," which Chilton set off when she was watching him in the interrogation with Alana. Mariam had also seen Hannibal earlier that day or the day before -- maybe he set that up somehow (not necessarily with her realizing it) when she saw him then? Alternatively, maybe Hannibal didn't even care about Mariam shooting Chilton or bother priming her to react to him in particular at all, Chilton just happened to have the bad luck to inadvertently trigger her somehow.

Or maybe Hannibal is a *total* asshole and primed Mariam to get triggered at anyone other than Hannibal being accused of being the Ripper. As in, if Hannibal was accused, she was primed to say no, he wasn't the Ripper, and be completely calm, and if anyone else was accused, she was primed to believe the accusations completely and flip out.

Anyway, I don't think that Mariam is consciously working with Hannibal. The guy CUT OFF HER ARM just to play a joke on Jack. At best, she's got an epic case of Stockholm Syndrome, which I think wouldn't really count as them working together per se.

Hannibal also just doesn't seem to especially get off on tormenting women the way he does men. He seems to enjoy scaring men and setting them up as fools, having private laughs at their expense, tormenting them altogether. When he hurts women, on the other hand, he seems to try to be as efficient and businesslike about it as possible. I think his treatment of Mariam sounds in keeping with that, it sounds like their interactions were very cold and purposeful on his part. But who knows. I'm sure more will come out.

All I can hope is that they don't charge Mariam with anything. If she winds up in the BSHCI, I will feel such an overwhelming urge to take Chilton's old cane and beat Jack with it myself.

Will and Jack are playing Go Fish and Hannibal's playing Hungry Hungry Hippos. Alana's playing Mystery Date, and she got a dud instead of a dream. She just doesn't know it yet.

Hannibal is totally playing Booby Trap.

If someone legit knows game theory, I think it would be possible to create a model that includes all of the characters (or at least all the main characters) and charts their decisions sequentially, so that the model stays dynamic, and even takes into account the characters' varying/changing amounts of information. I think that would be an "extensive-form game," and you'd probably have to make a tree rather than a matrix. All that is pretty far over my head, though -- I've never set up anything nearly that complex.

And sadly, I don't know many board games, I can't even play chess. The only strategic recreational games I can think of that use alliances and cooperation are maybe Risk and bridge? I'm not sure though, I've never played either of those.
posted by rue72 at 5:21 PM on April 14, 2014

Welp, some stills were released from the next ep and Tumblr exploded
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 PM on April 14, 2014

I don't think that Mariam is consciously working with Hannibal. The guy CUT OFF HER ARM just to play a joke on Jack.

Yeah, I know, but with the amount of dream logic and MURDER WIZARDRY going on in this series who the hell knows how far normal intuition works here. Miriam recalls being told "he was going to take it -- he was going to give it to Jack." Well WHO DOES SHE THINK TOLD HER THAT? IRL it seems beyond reasonableness that Hannibal could have kept Miriam prisoner for so long without giving her any hint of his identity considering she got taken because she discovered the fucking wound man drawing in his office.

Granted Hannibal has had her for $TOO_LONG and his mindfuckery powers are vast and all that, but I think there are going to be some major reveals in the next few eps on Miriam's interstory. Nothing is going to turn out to be what it now seems I'll wager.
posted by localroger at 5:44 PM on April 14, 2014

That is interesting, Hannibal doesn't humiliate his female victims.
posted by The Whelk at 5:45 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the books I don't think any of his known victims are women. And on the show, he's killed women when he "has" to--i.e., when they've become a danger to him (Bev, Abigail, nearly Bedelia), or when he's copycatting another killer.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:22 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the books I don't think any of his known victims are women. And on the show, he's killed women when he "has" to--i.e., when they've become a danger to him (Bev, Abigail, nearly Bedelia), or when he's copycatting another killer.

I just KNEW that someone on the wide, wide internet would take the time to look at all those business cards...

http://ddraggy.tumblr.com/kill-list/

So of the 34 (!!!) victims so far, it does look like there are a couple women in there aside from the ones you mention.

Customer Service Michelle Vocalson (854 Rashid Ave, Ste. 400, Baltimore. Stanwood Tailored Coats. Dinner Party. S01E07)

Of course. Don't nobody fuck with his coats.

Sales Manager Dorene Ibale (671 Chipmunk Lane, Bethel, Maine. H.T. Woods & Song Hardware. Dinner Party Fakeout. S02E06)

I love to think that this one was "Watcha doin with all those giant translucent panels? Makin' some kinda elaborate murder diorama? Haha I'm just joshin' ya!"

Of course, these murders are merely implied and not shown on-screen. Although there may be women in the background of a morgue scene, but I'm not THAT interested. Someone else can check!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:39 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I don't think any of his known victims are women

Homoerotic tendencies aside, if your jones is power and eating those who misuse it, men tend to have a lot more power than women in general.

As a masochistic female acquaintance of mine once said, explaining why in her fantasies she was always a powerful person like a spy or renegade scientist, "Who wants to dominate a wimp?"

Hannibal does not waste his time dominating wimps. Bedelia, however...
posted by localroger at 6:50 PM on April 14, 2014

That is interesting, Hannibal doesn't humiliate his female victims.

I think you're right that the majority of MURDER WIZARD displays from Hannibal have been of dudes, but I could swear there was a line about Cassie Boyle's killer (ie: Hannibal) thinking of her as a pig? And she was... mounted on a stag head and left naked in a field.

In a certain sense, the fact that he eats everyone is a humiliation, albeit a private (until everyone else figures out that it rhymes) one.
posted by sparkletone at 6:53 PM on April 14, 2014

Cassie Boyle was a copycat though.

The cannibalism... I wonder how much they'll go into his motivations for eating people. He tells Matthew Brown that he'd have to eat the Ripper to become the Ripper, but that doesn't seem to be Hannibal's own reasons. He doesn't eat people he wants to be like. He seems to get off the most by watching other people obliviously eat and praise his artfully prepared human flesh. He even passed some of it off as fish, ffs!
posted by lovecrafty at 7:17 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think he eats people to take their power, their life force. That fits with what he says to Matthew Brown; if Brown ate the Ripper then Brown would get the power of the Ripper.

Hannibal said in a recent episode that food is life, and went on in that nature. I will have to rewatch to find the quote.

He definitely thinks of his victims as pigs (Will talks about sounders), as beneath him. They are not worthy of the precious gift of life so Hannibal is happy to take it from them.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:33 PM on April 14, 2014

Homoerotic tendencies aside, if your jones is power and eating those who misuse it, men tend to have a lot more power than women in general.

I don't think that's Hannibal's jones, seeing as he'll pluck random victims from the Rolodex for some parties or eat Abigail if she's who's in his freezer. I don't think he's got a thing for misused power (at least on the show, maybe that's different in the books) or is even all that picky about what/who he eats (as long as they're fresh). He cooks them into something special even if they weren't, I guess.

He also doesn't seem to pick especially powerful men to screw with. Alana's more powerful, socially, professionally, and likely physically, than Chilton. Abigail was no wimpier than Will. Poor Gideon was physically paralyzed, and his mind and identity were a pretty bad mess, by the time Hannibal had "fun" forcing him to eat his own leg. If anything, I think that Hannibal likes to pick off the stragglers. But again, I think he's mostly opportunistic about who he kills. It's just that he doesn't seem to torture the women as much first.

I don't think that Hannibal has any particular respect for women. I think he just doesn't get off at humiliating or tormenting them the way he does men. It's not that he *won't* do it, I just think that he *prefers* not to do it, it's not particularly pleasurable for him.

He also tends to be more helpful to his female patients in therapy, I've noticed. I thought that Dinner of Sad he had with Abigail as she schroomed actually was great for her. Aside from his brutal refusal to let her die, I thought he was actually a pretty good therapist to Bella, too. He wasn't the worst therapist ever to Will, maybe, but on the other hand, he was experimenting on him and doing all kinds of nuts things the whole time, and even the actual therapy didn't seem worth anything (to be fair, that was at least partially because Will didn't take it seriously). He wasn't a terrible therapist to Franklyn, maybe, until he snapped his neck.

Anyway, I don't think it's that he particularly likes or respects women, I think it's that he particularly has a problem with men, and straight up enjoys humiliating and torturing them.

I don't think he cares what happens to him. I think he'd do absolutely anything to ruin Hannibal- not 'bring him to justice,' but RUIN him- even if it completely destroys Will himself. Which is why he's exposing himself to Hannibal's coercive therapy again. It's not that he's cocky and thinks he can completely resist Hannibal's influence, it's that he doesn't really care. Because in fishing, you can't be too precious about damaging or destroying your lures, or you'll never catch anything...

You must be right. I don't think that Will figures he has anything left to lose at this point. I don't really understand what specifically it was that Hannibal did (or rather that Will already did while under Hannibal's thumb) that made Will lose faith in himself, but he must have somehow -- that's what the whole "I'm not innocent" thing was about, at least to my ears.

Also, I kind of lost the forest for the trees, but the thing that I think is important about the idea of Will trying to play the Stag Hunt with Jack is, I think it's a big deal for Will (and how he'll be able to deal with Hannibal) that Jack ignored him and let him twist in the wind on his own *again.* Jack went after the "easy pickings" (aka, Chilton) *again* and sided with Hannibal *again.* I think Will knows for sure now that he's alone in this *again,* and nobody is going to help or care *again.* Jack started out the episode apologizing, too. Alana didn't even bother, she straight up said she'd lost faith in Will as a person when she found out he'd attacked Hannibal. And Chilton was always faithless, that's just who he is.
posted by rue72 at 7:35 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

http://ddraggy.tumblr.com/kill-list/

Ahhh, yes!

I was trying to keep my own list but it had nowhere near that detail and I missed a few people.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:39 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I always took it as Hannibal mocking the victims further by taking these crude pigs and turning them into something worthwhile and beautiful by consuming them, as if only in and through him can they be "refined."

Also, it occurs to me that Chilton has already done his versaion of Freddie earlier this season, with his sort of clumsy gossipy thing and penchant for recording. He sees all these people around him getting what they want or wielding some sort of power, but when he tries to take that power his cowardice and incompetence destroy him. And so Hannibal is now two for two on showing his would-be impostors -- Gideon and Chilton -- what is really is to be him.

The question I have now is, can Hannibal really stop? He seems to have convinced himself he can -- "The Chesapeake Ripper is over" -- but he's still got his God complex and his madness. I wonder if it'll be less Will's manipulations and more Mason Verger offering him an irresistible target that will get this fish to jump.

Or perhaps Will, having learned that setting a killer to get Hannibal doesn't work, will try to lure him with a deserving victim. That would work as a dark mirror of Abigail Hobbs, as a preview or echo of the fate of the Red Dragon version of Freddie Lounds, and as a way to show how far Will might go for his "reckoning" with Lecter that doesn't simply make Will into Lecter's patsy.
posted by kewb at 7:43 PM on April 14, 2014

I think he eats people to take their power, their life force.

I disagree. I think he was fucking with Matthew Brown. He doesn't eat terribly powerful people. He doesn't 'honor every part' of his kills. He takes the little bits he's peckish for and discards the rest. He eats the rude, and watches other people eat them, and smiles his secret little smirk. If he believed 'you are what you eat', he wouldn't eat rude census takers.

In the books, as a child he unwittingly ate stew made from his sister's flesh, fed to him by some deserters. (Or at least he believed he did, not sure if it was positive). Now he gets his kicks doing the same to other people. He fed Gideon his own leg! Now, the book that backstory tidbit came from is... shall we say, not the best in the series. So Fuller might change some stuff up, or just leave it vague. Vague is more creepy and demonic, imo.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:45 PM on April 14, 2014

I did not mean "their power" to imply that he fed on powerful people. The status of his victims doesn't seem to concern him. Poor choice of wording on my part. And, thinking about it, I went the wrong direction anyway. It doesn't even have to be about an animus, a magical force, but I think there is something of that in Hannibal's thinking. He eats to live, and lives to eat.

This Hannibal is very different than the Lecter from the books and from the movies. "Eat the rude" does not seem like it applies so much. I mean, yes, he is very concerned with manners, etc. but I don't think he kills and eats people to root out rudeness. Again, this Hannibal is far more prolific than the Hannibal in the previous media. This one is getting close to #2 most kills for American serial killers (against real-life) and we know he's not done. The Hannibal of Silence of the Lambs was a minor character who killed several people and ate some of them because he was crazy (in addition to being very perceptive).

I think Hannibal in the TV show is after the best stuff. His home and office show that, his music tastes as well. He chooses his victims very carefully, and rarely takes more than one organ. They've certainly spent some time on his highly developed sense of smell; I don't think people go in his recipe book because they are rude to him; they go in his recipe book because they have a kidney that will go really well with the oregano grown at that farm just south of town. Or because they have a perfectly developed heart that will pair nicely with the spiciness of this nice Tempranillo vintage he just found. He's shopping.

I know Fuller has played up the "Eat the rude" bit but I am not buying it.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:15 PM on April 14, 2014

Are there any examples from the show of someone being rife to Hannibal then him asking for a business card? Are there direct reasons to believe he is eating people to punish rudeness? I need more than a catchphrase.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:35 PM on April 14, 2014

Cassie Boyle was a copycat though.

Yeah, but Hannibal's contempt for the victim was apparent to Will, and that gave it away as a copy. The contempt wasn't part of what Hannibal was copying.
posted by sparkletone at 8:37 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Are there any examples from the show of someone being rife to Hannibal then him asking for a business card?

Yes. In 1x07, someone is rude to Hannibal and he asks for a business card. Hannibal kills him in the same episode and takes a couple organs.

Also, while the scene didn't get filmed or anything (so it's not 100% canon), the original reason for Cassie Boyle's murder was that she was super rude to Hannibal. If I recall, she blew cigarette smoke in his face.
posted by sparkletone at 8:41 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I am 100% convinced that Mason is gonna represent the Ideal Victim for Hannibal, he can't kill as the Ripper anymore but Mason is SO AWFUL, SO REPULSIVE, SO RICH, SO DESERVING that Hannibal is going to feel justified in torturing and killing him, maybe use this as his next THING, a vigilante killer.

And Hannibal is gonna make Will take part in it.

And the worst thing is

Some part of Will is going to enjoy it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

This doesn't quite fit the business card thing, but I'm pretty sure he killed Marissa Schurr (Abigail's neighborhood friend) because she called her mom a bitch right in front of him. When she did it, you could just see Hannibal trying really hard to hold in his "Well, I NEVER!"
posted by rue72 at 8:54 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Okay so this is apropos of absolutely nothing, but you know what I adore about this show?

They've taken this guy and given him like, complexity and emotions without ever humanizing him. Like I wouldn't bat an eye if he was ultimately revealed as the actual avatar of Nyarlathotep. He still has affection for people-- Abigail, Alana, most of all Will-- but it's so fucked up and twisted that it's pretty alien. And yet it is affection.

I dunno, y'all, I'm just so delighted that we got a character study of one of the Great Old Ones.

(And slightly on-topic: my own interpretation is that he's pretty equal-opportunity awful, but he doesn't go out of his way to utterly shame his female victims. Doesn't mean he won't if it's convenient.)
posted by dogheart at 9:24 PM on April 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

yaah I only like my Hannibal when he's an alien vampire from the planet Europe. I don't want him to have understandable human emotions. He's a murder wizard, just enjoy that,
posted by The Whelk at 9:46 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

What would it take to disgrace Hannibal? What could happen to make people (that is, Jack and Alana) want to disassociate from him? What would convince them that they *want* him to be guilty (of anything)?

The question I have now is, can Hannibal really stop? He seems to have convinced himself he can -- "The Chesapeake Ripper is over" -- but he's still got his God complex and his madness. I wonder if it'll be less Will's manipulations and more Mason Verger offering him an irresistible target that will get this fish to jump.

I think that Hannibal's likely to kill more people than ever now, and to make his Grisly Discovery Scenes even more elaborately staged.

If Hannibal wants to keep killing in virtually the same way as he has been as the Ripper, I think that he can. Nobody even realized that the Copycat *was* the Ripper until Will made the connection, it's not as though competent profilers are thick on the ground at the FBI (apparently). Will will recognize Hannibal's work, but nobody ever believes him anyway, and no doubt that Hannibal can find a way to "convince" Will to shut his mouth if it comes to that. Besides, if worst comes to worst, Hannibal can just blame any new rash of Art Murders on ~whomever~ killed the judge.
posted by rue72 at 10:31 PM on April 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think he'll take a break. Rest on his laurels and bask in the glow of how awesomely his awesome plan went off. Before Will came on the scene, the Ripper had periods of low activity. He's capable of waiting.

Now he knows Will knows, but he also knows Will has no proof and no one backing him up (though I believe Jack is on team Will now, hence the ice fishing). He still kinda wants Will to be his MurderBFF. He sees Will doing a Talented Mr Ripley act on him, and he's intrigued. He's going to amusedly watch and see, and serve things that are Not People for a while.

> I am 100% convinced that Mason is gonna represent the Ideal Victim for Hannibal

I agree. I think Mason is going to be the fattest wriggliest worm on the hook. I think Will is going to find some way to dandle him right in front of Hannibal.
posted by lovecrafty at 10:50 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Saw a tumblr post the other day where someone tracked down the pen Chilton is quoted as having when they're processing him. The thing costs, like, $700. Then today saw an older one where someone tracked down a coat Hannibal wears a couple times in S1: $1800.

Ain't no out-fancying the Fancy Cannibal Show.
posted by sparkletone at 10:52 PM on April 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Went and looked at the full set of promo pics, since I figured there were more than just the Hannigram bait. Turns out there were! It seems we are finally meeting Margot this week, and she is a patient of Hannibal's...
posted by sparkletone at 12:47 AM on April 15, 2014

I honestly think now, that possibly what will convince alana to see through hannibal literally is if she catches him cheating with will. I thought that was a joke before, but now i'm just not sure.

As for Jack, hmm, i wonder if he's gonna eat the food, ever again? Despite what he says now? Because that fight takes place in the kitchen, after all. I wonder if the people food is what will be the final straw for him.
posted by tel3path at 1:30 AM on April 15, 2014

As for Jack, hmm, i wonder if he's gonna eat the food, ever again?

There's stuff in the preview for this week of Jack and Will dining with Hannibal at his house, so it would seem so?
posted by sparkletone at 2:52 AM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

So this is adorable. (The person said yes.)
posted by sparkletone at 3:42 AM on April 15, 2014

So this is adorable. (The person said yes.)

PS. I usually feel like showy public asks of things like this are kinda unfair to the person being asked, but if you read their tumblrs, they're apparently good friends and it's the fact that it's freaking Hannibal ... I dunno. Made it not weird?
posted by sparkletone at 7:09 AM on April 15, 2014

Why is the judge not being credited to Hannibal? I thought it had been made clear that he had done it.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:31 AM on April 15, 2014

It's being publicly attributed to the Admirer, not the Ripper.
posted by tel3path at 8:50 AM on April 15, 2014

Then today saw an older one where someone tracked down a coat Hannibal wears a couple times in S1: $1800.

Which would be fine if Burberry's quality control hadn't tanked like a lead balloon in 2002 .... Not that I'm bitter or anything ( I have a coat in a similar style, it's paying an Edwardian great coat, but mine is actually Edwardian and I got it for ten bucks at a goodwill in Philadelphia.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 AM on April 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I agree, vintage Burberry is to fucking die, but since they outsourced their operations to China... I can't see Hannibal putting up with it.

Surely Hannibal could get a local tailor to do him a better coat for less money.
posted by tel3path at 9:19 AM on April 15, 2014

Well, according to the kill list tumblr linked above, he once tried to get good customer service from Michelle Vocalson of Stanwood Tailored Coats, but alas, her card ended up in his rolodex.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:38 AM on April 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Who thinks Miriam Lass will end up as Alana's patient, or as Hannibal's? Or will we just not see her from now on?
posted by tel3path at 10:40 AM on April 15, 2014

Short fanfic prompt The Six Unbelivably Minor Rudeness That Got People Killed.
posted by The Whelk at 10:48 AM on April 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Michelle Vocalson took his measurements and made a joke about uneven shoulders. She's a pie now.
posted by The Whelk at 10:57 AM on April 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

That prompt could be really funny. A series of short comic vignettes that end with Hannibal making that "well I never" face he makes at Marissa Schurr. You wouldn't even have to make up crazy tableaux if you didn't want to do any more than show the rudeness and the face Hannibal makes...
posted by sparkletone at 11:01 AM on April 15, 2014

Does anybody know if Chilton has ever been a surgeon?

...dinner party guest sends thank-you note on 120gsm, post-quarto sized, white paper, handwritten in BLUE ink.

Guest appears at next dinner, as calamari.
posted by tel3path at 11:11 AM on April 15, 2014

Hannibal has a difficult time finding good help, it seems. There's the rare books store manager, the IT consultant, the hardware store manager, the medical supplies sales manager, the concierge at The Pearson, and the graffiti removal experts service manager. Wonder what that one was about.

Then of course, the census taker who knocked too early. Was that the 2010 census or the 2000, I wonder?
posted by lovecrafty at 12:23 PM on April 15, 2014

Does anybody know if Chilton has ever been a surgeon?

There was no mention of it in the books, and I can't recall anyone ever saying he was in the show either. I just assumed he was always a psychiatrist, never a surgeon.
posted by sparkletone at 12:43 PM on April 15, 2014

Psychiatrists are MDs, so while they haven't don't surgical residencies, they would have at least needed to know the basics and participate in surgical rounds during their final years of medical school.

That, plus some *ahem*practice, could be enough to bring Chilton's skill levels high enough to perform Ripper-level acts of murder wizardry.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:49 PM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Who thinks Miriam Lass will end up as Alana's patient, or as Hannibal's?

I think she could end up as Hannibal's patient. That's the kind of game the writers like to play. Will might try to steer her away from him, and she feels a bond with Will so she might listen. But at this point she wouldn't believe him if he implied that Hannibal is the ripper.
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on April 15, 2014

Who thinks Miriam Lass will end up as Alana's patient, or as Hannibal's?

I think it's likely she'll end up at the Baltimore State Hospital for the Criminally Insane for charges stemming from shooting Chilton in the head. With Chilton dead or incapacitated, I think that Alana might become at least the temporary head of the BSHCI unless a new psychiatrist character is introduced instead. In that case, I think that Mariam will automatically become Alana's patient. Which, knowing Alana, and thinking back to how things went down with Abigail, would mean that Hannibal would likely be deeply involved in Mariam's care as well.

Also, I think Hannibal might already be acting as Mariam's psychiatrist, since he was who Jack brought Mariam to for the hypnosis?
posted by rue72 at 1:06 PM on April 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

That, plus some *ahem*practice, could be enough to bring Chilton's skill levels high enough to perform Ripper-level acts of murder wizardry.

That's exactly what I figured. The trophy-taking actually seems like the least complicated part of Hannibal's ART MURDERs. Some basic training and a little "independent study" and you're there.
posted by sparkletone at 1:10 PM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Graffiti removal-- Jesus what do you think happened to the poor bastard doing the tagging?

...ugh I'm going to end up writing this, aren't I? (Whether or not anyone sees it is another question.)
posted by dogheart at 1:13 PM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

The problem i have is that the ripper is supposed to have "advanced" surgical skills. He was an ER surgeon for a number of years, that's what it takes to have "advanced" surgical skills, not "blundered about a bit with a scalpel during my residency".
posted by tel3path at 1:40 PM on April 15, 2014

Do they ever use that phrasing? I can't recall.

I'm okay with it either way because the Chilton frame job feels like a pretty short term play, much shorter a thing than what was done to Will. There's just no way it's going to hold up to long term, intense scrutiny, and I don't think Hannibal's stupid enough to think it will. He wants to fuck with Chilton and also keep the ball in the air as far as suspicions of him (which are slowly but surely mounting).

That being the case, the Chilton frame job just needs to pass the smell test enough that Hannibal can keep the game going, as it were, which I think it does unless the writers ruin it retroactively somehow.
posted by sparkletone at 1:48 PM on April 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yes, they do use the phrase advanced surgical skills.

How well the chilton framing holds up depends on the support of the other characters. They seem more than cooperative so far.
posted by tel3path at 1:56 PM on April 15, 2014

It's pretty clear that book Chilton never practised much of anything except getting his name attached to ever more important papers. Series Chilton is harder to call; he seems deeper, and not in a good way, but also not in a way that would make one think he did a lot of work.

I suspect Series Chilton went into psychiatry because he found it amusing and easy and attained his position (and absurdly expensive lifestyle) through family contacts and inherited money. He would never have done more actual surgery, or performed more actual psychiatric practice, than absolutely required to acquire and maintain his credentials. He may view his patients, particularly those like Gideon, as toys which it his natural right to play with and which can earn him recognition if he finds especially cool ways to play with them. Ripper confession? No doubt worth a squib in Psychology Today even if it's later disproven.
posted by localroger at 4:25 PM on April 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Okay I think the 5-person sex scene in ep10 is gonna be a chain of people thinking about each other, not literally a fivesome.

I think three of the people will be the alanihannigram triangle (where sanity disappears without trace), and since bedelia reappears in ep10 the fourth person will be her. The fifth person will be bedelia's patient that attacked her.

I guess maybe we'll find out that bedelia crossed ethical lines with this patient or with hannibal or both. Or, if margot verger is hannibal's former patient, we know she didn't swallow her own tongue but maybe the patient is someone connected to mason. I doubt bedelia will come out of this looking innocent (there is no such verdict as innocent) but I wonder if we'll still see her as admirable after all this.

My personal suspicion is that we will, because she has clearly made the best of a bad situation, regardless of what came before. She even went to jack to test out his receptivity and see how much she would be able to tell him before she split. And she gave as much support to will as she safely could. But maybe it's gonna look totally different on the other side of the story.
posted by tel3path at 3:11 AM on April 16, 2014

Okay... when Miriam is in Hannibal's office, and he is talking about his drawings and saying that the face tells the story - her face is absolutely bug-eyed with terror. Her eyes are like saucers, open so wide you can see the whites all around.

Consciously or not, she is absolutely terrified of Hannibal. Possibly terrified enough to consciously play along with something like this. Will did so, after all.

The other possibility is that that small part of her remembers, and that small part of her will get bigger and bigger until it explodes out of her.

If Miriam is going into the BSHCI (as could reasonably happen next) and the BSHCI is going to be taken over by Alana (as could reasonably happen next), then she will still indirectly be Hannibal's prisoner. Not that there was any doubt about that, since Jack took her right into Hannibal's office.
posted by tel3path at 6:17 AM on April 16, 2014

Okay I think the 5-person sex scene in ep10 is gonna be a chain of people thinking about each other, not literally a fivesome.

Do we know that that's actually what's going to happen? I haven't read the spoilery summaries for anything ahead of what's currently aired. If you feel like a yes/no to that is too spoilery for thread, feel free to memail me.

I thought all we knew was Fuller being kind of cheeky about "Oh, if you think it's been sexy already, wait till episode 10," and some other comments to that effect.
posted by sparkletone at 8:43 AM on April 16, 2014

Oh boy I have a Hannibal related thing to show you guys sooooon
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 AM on April 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Korea is so totally about Hannigram. I can't even.
posted by sparkletone at 8:56 AM on April 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

...KOrea do you need a ....asprin? Or a glass of water or something?
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 AM on April 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Do we know that that's actually what's going to happen? I haven't read the spoilery summaries for anything ahead of what's currently aired. If you feel like a yes/no to that is too spoilery for thread, feel free to memail me.

It's here. I don't think it's a huge spoiler, more of a tease.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:01 AM on April 16, 2014

I assume we're seeing a dream sequence of one character imagining various partners but then again I'm sure the reality will be much much worse.
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on April 16, 2014

I'm imagining one or two actual sex scenes intercut with Will and Hannibal having murderous eyeball sex.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:24 AM on April 16, 2014

We're all gonna be surprised when Jack starts making out with Zeller
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 AM on April 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's here. I don't think it's a huge spoiler, more of a tease.

Yeah. I'm totally fine with interview/twitter stuff being fair game. I just hadn't seen this particular bit, just some more vague things elsewhere.

And, uh. Yeah. That's gonna be interesting. Tel3path's psychic headspace thing seems like a pretty reasonable supposition. We've never seen Will empath his way into sexy times thoughts. Maybe that's what happens.
posted by sparkletone at 10:54 AM on April 16, 2014

murderous eyeball sex

Thanks, showbiz_liz, that won't keep me awake all night...
posted by tel3path at 10:59 AM on April 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I meant metaphorically, but this show DOES do some pretty gross stuff with eyeballs, so...
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:32 AM on April 16, 2014

GUYS GUYS GUYS HERE IT IS
posted by The Whelk at 1:00 PM on April 16, 2014 [11 favorites]

Awesome.

Manhunter was one of my favourite films when I was 20-21, I watched it until it was coming out of my ears. The other one I watched all the time was SOTL.

Read Hannibal in 1999 the minute it came out. Threw it in the bin. Actively refused to watch the movie, for obvious reasons.

Got obsessed with watching Manhunter again in 2008. Reread the book in 2009, and I might do so again soon.

Tried watching the Red Dragon movie, fell asleep.

Manhunter is still a movie I could watch on continuous loop for some time. It has that haunting and hypnotic quality to it, you know Mann was drawn in the same way we were. Tom Noonan was so impressive in it. I fundamentally disagree with Mann's choice to turn it into a redemptive violence story but i can understand the temptation considering the book offers no kind of redemption, violent or not.

But wow, just wow. Brian Cox was so menacing, he just hit it out of the park. Wow. William Peterson, so scared, so quiet. He sure was beautiful back then.
posted by tel3path at 1:17 PM on April 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

GUYS GUYS GUYS HERE IT IS

How spoilery would you say this article is for someone who is watching Hannibal from a state of wilful ignorance (I've seen all of the Anthony Hopkins movies, but so long ago that I've forgotten the plot and I want to keep the surprises "fresh" for the show)?

I ask this with the understanding that Fuller et al are taking major liberties with the source materials (as did the movies).
posted by sparklemotion at 1:20 PM on April 16, 2014

If you've seen the movies, you know what's in the article and it's only the one scene.
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on April 16, 2014

it's only the one scene.

Ah...I didn't skim far enough to see the limited scope. I'm looking forward to watching this when I get home!
posted by sparklemotion at 1:28 PM on April 16, 2014

OMG never mind the picture of hanni about to plant one on will's rosebud lips. How about the one of Jack giving them so much side-eye he's practically looking at the back of his own head.

This could be the thing that's the moral event horizon for Jack, finally! Stahp hanni das gay!

Lol and they took alana off the witness stand for exactly this kind of nonsense
posted by tel3path at 1:44 PM on April 16, 2014

I find that in the split screen my eyes constantly go towards Manhunter.
posted by tel3path at 1:44 PM on April 16, 2014

I thought it was because the Audi levels where unmixed but nope, it's just more compelling ( that all white room helps.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:54 PM on April 16, 2014

That Manhunter/Red Dragon comparison thing is pretty good.

Also, I can't stop watching that Korean promo. It's like if they let the people who make crackvids make the show's actual ads that air on TV (WHICH SHOULD TOTALLY HAPPEN).
posted by sparkletone at 3:21 PM on April 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I thought Koreans were so foreign, turns out they're just like us.
posted by tel3path at 3:27 PM on April 16, 2014

It's like if they let the people who make crackvids make the show's actual ads that air on TV (WHICH SHOULD TOTALLY HAPPEN).

It's like those cooking with Hamnibal promos they out out a while back.

Everyone invovled is such a goofy fan of their own series it's delightful.
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on April 16, 2014

wait Wait WAIT that Korean promo isn't a for real promo right? Was that seriously aired on Korean television? Because that *was* a crackvid if I've ever seen one!

Nice article, Whelk. I have a soft spot for Red Dragon, but you were right, it didn't hold up at all in a direct comparison with Manhunter like that. To be honest, I hadn't realized the movies even followed such similar scripts, they seemed so different to me -- or are the scripts especially similar in that section but otherwise diverge? I hadn't remembered that the bright lighting and sterility in Manhunter was so frightening, either. Thinking about it now, though, that aesthetic choice makes so much more sense for the story, especially for Dolarhyde's character -- of course there should be *too much* light and everything should look *too* clinical, it should feel like there's no way to hide from anybody's eyes at all.
posted by rue72 at 3:56 PM on April 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

wait Wait WAIT that Korean promo isn't a for real promo right? Was that seriously aired on Korean television? Because that *was* a crackvid if I've ever seen one!

Yes, that's a real thing that was put on AXN in Korea. There have been other Korean promos I've seen that have been pretty great, but bits of this one aren't too different from this old crackvid I first saw during the marathon they did just before the new season started.
posted by sparkletone at 4:24 PM on April 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm harder on Red Dragon in the article than I am in real life, cause its an otherwise totally serviceable Serial Killer Movie Product, with Dolerahyde and Reba acting in totally different, better movie ...but it gets at the heart of the problem, it's an adaptation of the amazing genre-defining movies and compared to Manhunter and Silence Of The Lambs, Hannibal and Red Dragon are pretty weak.
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on April 16, 2014

Manhunter is a very good adaptation of the Red Dragon book; I always like Brian Cox's Hannibal better than Hopkins'.

By comparison the Red Dragon movie was serviceable but had a lot of SOTL tie-in cruft thrown in that didn't exist when Manhunter was made and which diluted the power of the original story since Red Dragon and SOTL are driven by totally different and not very compatible moral themes.

Hannibal was what it was, both book and movie, because Thomas Harris wanted to fuck up your shit for messing up his characters. I'm almost surprised he didn't slip in a scene where Hannibal has to yell CLAAAA-RIIIICE from a moving streetcar.
posted by localroger at 6:15 PM on April 16, 2014

I'm kinda enh on seeing Red Dragon, but Manhunter is actually one of the Michael Mann movies I haven't seen yet despite really liking his work generally. I should fix that this weekend or something. Or maybe save it for early next week when I'm at peak "WHY ISN'T THE DAY HANNIBAL AIRS YET."
posted by sparkletone at 6:26 PM on April 16, 2014

Manhunter is so buckled down and restrained, compared to Hopkins chomping on the scenery.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:28 PM on April 16, 2014

Hopkins, while on FIRE in Silence Of The Lambs, was changed for me by someone saying he sounded like Katherine Hepburn so now whenever he talks I'm imagining a The Lion In Winter era Hepburn saying all his lines
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on April 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Perhaps he picked it up during Lion in Winter.
"I'd hang you from the nipples, but you'd shock the children."
posted by rmd1023 at 8:16 PM on April 16, 2014

it's the same. damn. cadence. I think he even says it was a mix of Hepburn and Truman Captoe
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 PM on April 16, 2014

Katharine Hepburn would've been terrifying playing Hannibal Lecter. Or Annabel Lecter. Hannah Belle?

I imagine it being not unlike her interrogation of MacAulay Connor in "The Philadelphia Story".

"Dear Papa and Mama aren't allowing any reporters in -- except Mr. Grace who does the social news. Can you imagine a grown-up man having to sink so low?"

"... South Bend. It sounds like dancing, doesn't it!"
posted by wabbittwax at 12:14 AM on April 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Funny recap-ish-thing from The Mary Sue.
posted by rue72 at 12:42 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Brian Cox plays Lecktor superbly as an evil man - one of the few times I can remember seeing a serial killer as they're described to be (apparently normal, charming even, with an undercurrent of threat - Do you want to give me your home phone number, Will, I can get back to you if I think of anything). Apparantly he based Lecktor on a specific serial killer called Peter Manuel, though I was reminded of Dennis Nilsen.

Manhunter is a film I like a lot, and in fact I have warm feelings about Michael Mann's output altogether, even though I mostly think about him as the worlds premier director of real men standing around looking a bit upset about something.

Anthony Hopkins' Lecter (or, possibly more to the point, the Lecter in Jonathan Demme's Silence of the Lambs) is quite a different prospect. He is a demon in a bottle, and on one level the film is about the payment that a demon will demand from you in exchange for its assistance, the ways in which we negotiate with the world that lies behind our mundane world hemmed in with inconvenient morality to get power (apart from the serial killers, power is, ultimately, what Crawford wants, and he uses his power over disposable underlings to get it; Chilton's power stems from his ownership of Lecter) while trying to hang on to our halo. Demme's brilliance is managing the different levels of reality - the mundanity of Clarisse's day-to-day life contrasted with the Other Realm of Lecter's cell (Barney's warnings Do not touch the glass, do not approach the glass… etc serve as a sort of magickal incantation to get her to that plane) contrasted again with the hyper-detailed everyday in the makeshift hick morgue or the victim's bedroom. This Lecter is a supernatural being. You could imagine a fairly direct analogue involving a CGI demon brilliantly though bloodlessly performed by Andy Serkiss via motion capture. In fact I'm sure some hack writer or other already has a spec script to that effect.

Demme can be an astonishing director, though not all the time, or even usually. But I'd put Silence of the Lambs with his masterpieces of applied technique Stop Making Sense and Swimming to Cambodia (where his job is to record, analyse and amplify someone else's source material) rather than Married to the Mob or Rachel Getting Married. Which I don't mean to knock, but.

Fuller seems to think he thought up the Lecter-as-devil bit for himself, but I think he means the Devil rather than a demon. I'm not really sure where he's going with it, but after a rocky start (for me) I'm certainly enjoying it. To begin with, the Grand Guignol the confection of carnage and high camp, seemed offhandedly cruel, and it didn't seem to be worth getting too close to any of the characters as they'd be eviscerated by and by (I had a similar problem with the British series Utopia), but I still kept seeking it out and watching it (I'm in a position where I also have to appeal to forces beyond mundane, everyday, ethics if I want to watch the series). I also found the dialogue a bit too arch for my taste and the pretentiousness horrifying. I don't use the word pretentious very often, it's not as useful as people think it is, but I think it's applicable here - apart from the leaden witty conversation, the way that Lecter's sophistication is signified by his playing popular classics in the background and talking about the meals he serves like the worst kind of restaurant review (though at least he's not mentioned "notes" - if anyone is eating or drinking and says they're getting notes of anything, slap them from me); the way that symbolism is shoe-horned in by having characters recite relevant chunks of Wikipedia at each other (the mortuary attendants who seem to primarily concerned with drinking coffee, aiming waspish insults and explaining the symbolism in enough detail that if anyone hard of thinking has wandered in, they can at least follow along at home).

However, having looked up Mr Fuller's back catalogue, I now suspect that all those things I've just complained about are the actual point. For example, the hilariously over-wrought dialogue in Pushing Daisies is a direct precursor to the duelling metaphors of Hannibal. Or the deadly slapstick of Dead Like Me filtering through to the jaw-slackening art murders of Hannibal. Watching Hannibal as a beautifully presented penny dreadful rather than anything with a lot of literary coherence makes more sense.

And it is stunningly beautiful - Fuller has been very clever in including amongst his directors Tim Hunter (who made River's Edge as well as some episodes of Twin Peaks), Peter Medak (veteran British director, who made The Ruling Class and The Krays - the latter is well worth exploring in relation to this series) and Guillermo Navarro (who has worked as a cinematographer with Guillermo del Toro, Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino). What threw me is that it's beautiful in quite a different way from Pushing Daisies (say). I hope I'm not (as a straight man) treading on too many toes if I suggest that whereas Pushing Daisies is out and fabulous, Hannibal might be described as non-scene, straight-acting. Rewatching season one recently assuming it to be a gay text was certainly very useful. It's not just a reading of Hannibal-and-Will - the series seemed suffused with unspoken desire between male characters. But further than that I ought not go. In fact I ought to shut up altogether before I get myself into more trouble than I can handle, which is any trouble at all.

Though there are other things I'd like to bring in - compare and contrast Fuller's work with Les Revenants, which has to be the most Fulleresque conceit on television at the moment, but how different; the limits of high camp - as a straight person, it's a field that includes Anderson (W), Lynch and Greenaway alongside Anger, Jarman etc: is that acceptable; Can it really be true that no one's mentioned Herne the Hunter, yet? - but I've been rambling on to no proper effect for what seems like hours. It's up I should shut and the fuck off I should fuck. Thank you for reading, or at least tactfully skimming over.
posted by Grangousier at 3:09 AM on April 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

This is not the first place I've heard Hannibal's having to keep up a public persona and exterior fiction and talk around the truth about his nighttime serial killing as being a kind of closet metaphor.

Which of course ties back into the Vamire thing ( he drained all of Bev's blood! How is he not a vampire?!)
posted by The Whelk at 4:34 AM on April 17, 2014

Absolutely, though it wasn't Hannibal Lecter's being in the closet that I was interested in, but the series itself. It's only when I see something like this that I realise how much narrative is driven by assumptions of het desire. I don't think het desire is bad per se (I've been known to indulge in it myself), but since it's so prevalent it does encourage laziness in writers. It's good for something like this to mix things up.

I'm assuming Will isn't gay, not so much because of heterocentric normatism as that the notion that Hannibal is driven by unrequited desire seems a much juicier theme than relatively straightforward slash. At heart he's trying to impress a boy who isn't interested, which undermines his vanity and preening somewhat, and either killing or seducing the people who he sees as competition for Will's affection.

Actually, something else I wanted to weave into my screed was that the murder of Beverley was probably the most important thing that's happened so far - not only has someone important to us become one of Hannibal's exhibits (I certainly felt my attitude to Hannibal change at that point, much as it did when he arranged the incineration of Georgia Mädchen), but Fuller is quite clearly saying that we think we can use what we know from Red Dragon to predict the futures of the characters, but in fact all bets are off. It sort of works like the destruction of Vulcan in the Star Trek reboot movie.

In fact, Fuller seems to be gearing up not to new adaptations of Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, but reinterpretations of them, analogues that function as commentaries. I can't really see stretching out the Tooth Fairy storyline alone to thirteen episodes working, given what we've seen so far. That Fuller has a tendency to plan his most interesting storylines for two seasons after a series is, in fact, cancelled* gives me some pause, it's encouraging that NBC are going for a slightly different model (lots of international funding partners, and apparently with an eye on the boxed set/on demand residual market) which means that this time he might actually get there.

*For example, Jaye as the Joan of Arc of the asylum in the projected season three of Wonderfalls.
posted by Grangousier at 6:07 AM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

I really get the feeling everyone thinks this may be thier ONE AND LAST CHANCE to do everything they ever wanted so the show is just so overstuffed and dripping with THINGS.
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Side note: I was reading the FanFare thread in MeTa and was struck by how odd the approach to spoilers is in Hannibal.

It's a prequel, but also a re-imagining so while we can be fairly certain of broad strokes - Hannibal is going to be caught, consult on some cases for the FBI and then escape - the details are all up in the air.

The show never pulled any punches about Hannibal being a serial killer and a cannibal; that ws clear from his first appearances. The show also has a lot of call outs to the books/movies, transformed as they are. They know/assume we are familiar with the prior works.

This all provides such a refreshing contrast with, say, Game of Thrones, with (from what I can tell) relatively faithful adaptations/reductions of the novels into seasons of television.

Because even if (we get a) season four of Hannibal (and it) lines up with the Red Dragon book era/events... it doesn't seem like the book and movies will really count as spoilers for that season of Hannibal the TV show, due to how the show has been developed.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:10 AM on April 17, 2014

And now reading what you wrote, Grangousier, I see that you touched on some of the same issues. And the idea of the Red Dragon and Silence seasons as commentaries is quite on point.
posted by mountmccabe at 7:55 AM on April 17, 2014

Fuller seems to think he thought up the Lecter-as-devil bit for himself, but I think he means the Devil rather than a demon.

There's a lot of really good stuff to think about in your post, but I'm going to nitpick here: The way it's been described in interviews has been pretty consistent. Fuller's feeling was just "we can't do it exactly like someone else already has, especially not Hopkins." It's Mikkelsen who gets credited with the "I want to play him like The Devil" thought and a few other ways they've talked about it.

I tend to find Mikkelsen's thoughts on what he's doing in this show very interesting. It makes sense that as someone who has to play the character from the inside, he would have an idiosyncratic way of talking about Hannibal, but it's interesting to hear him say right out that this god awful monster is the happiest/most content character he's ever played in terms of how the character's life is going.

And as for your and The Whelk's mention of the "public persona and exterior fiction" and the closet metaphor thing... That actually came up on the latest A Matter Of Taste podcast. One of the hosts talks a bit about how he kind of projected his own experiences of being a gay person and hiding it onto Hannibal a bit when it came to the "must keep up this airtight exterior lest I be exposed" thing.

I'd never quite thought about the show or that character from that angle before, perhaps because I'm somewhat over-immersed in the tumblr side of things where 99% of thoughts about homosexuality in the context of Hannibal are about shipping Will and Hannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 8:21 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

And the idea of the Red Dragon and Silence seasons as commentaries is quite on point.

I'm also hoping to find a lot of interesting things to think about in this vein when we have a better idea of what happened to Miriam in the last two years and what exactly's going on with her now (how complicit is she in things, etc, etc) since it's been made pretty obvious that they're giving to her some of what was done to Clarice in Hannibal the book.
posted by sparkletone at 8:32 AM on April 17, 2014

I just saw the FanFare thing because I ... don't really ever look at Metatalk generally speaking. I didn't see it until it got sidebarred (and subsequently tweeted by the account that posts such things). I'm so happy they're doing this! Even if they end up disallowing the liveblog side of things ... Enh. I can just yell at (most of) you on twitter or it sounds like there'll be chat rooms?

In any case, Hannibal isn't the first and certainly won't be the last show that I'd love to discuss without having to constantly migrate from thread to thread to deal with the Blue's 30 day thread expiration.

Hannibal will be done before the beta is over, but after hiatus 2: the desolation of smaug, we'll be fine!
posted by sparkletone at 9:30 AM on April 17, 2014

I'd never quite thought about the show or that character from that angle before

A wealthy older bachelor (with refined tastes in the arts, wine, food and clothing, and a carefully cultivated public facade that conceals a secret life where indulges in his true passions) becomes fascinated with a younger man and predatorily tries to alternately impress him and inveigle his way into his life while he subtly works to convert him to...

...wait a minute.

Reading the show (particularly the first season) that way sounds trivially obvious and a little tawdry when it's pointed out. That I'd never considered it points to a gaping lacuna in my worldview. I'm like a Liberace fan who genuinely had no idea.
posted by figurant at 9:50 AM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

Well that would explain why Alana is so adamant that Hannibal can't possibly have a secret life. She has proof to the contrary!
posted by tel3path at 10:15 AM on April 17, 2014

When you think about it that way... well, just imagine if either Hannibal or Will was female on the show. Then their relationship, with all of its longing, manipulation, sweaty face-stroking, and twisted affection, would be read as romantic or quasi-romantic by just about everyone. Imagine Lecter played by Gillian Anderson forcing that ear down Will's throat and then gently stroking his damp face, or Graham played by Hettiene Park saying "please don't lie to me!" and then breaking down crying in Hannibal's dining room...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:18 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm like a Liberace fan who genuinely had no idea.

This is exactly how I felt listening to that podcast I linked last night. Just this kind of forehead-smack, "Why hadn't I thought of it that way before?" reaction. Felt so myopic given how much time I spend thinking about this goddam show.

As my tumblr-related comment maybe indicated, I think it's because where I've been thinking of homosexual subtext in the show, it's been focused on inter-character relationships[1] rather than on more general things about the show. I should stop doing that, especially as they add Margot into the show.

[1] - "Uh, Will, why are you showing Hannibal your ass when he opens the door to his office at the end of the latest episode?" or the tumblr freak out over that pic of Hannibal touching Will's head and looking deep into his eyes from the upcoming episode.
posted by sparkletone at 10:20 AM on April 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

What I really like, as I said, is the sight of Jack giving Hannigram the side-eye as Hannibal homes in for a smooch. (I assume they won't literally kiss in front of him, but they don't really need to.)

If it's got to the point where JACK is noticing something, they might as well have written it in giant red letters of fire and launched firecrackers into the night sky that spell out HANNIGRAM 5EVA.

But even before now, the subtext was so very close to becoming text in S1 that it was flamingly obvious, even to me. I take a very pessimistic view of shipping and tend to refuse a romantic interpretation of two characters' actions if I don't see any canonical basis. (I'm speaking analytically, obviously fans can ship whoever they want, but I'm not gonna agree with anyone who tries to support their ship with spurious evidence from canon.) With this one? Subtext actually became text in 203, when Hannibal LITERALLY SAID IN SO MANY WORDS (albeit in doublespeak) that he loved Will, and people were complaining it was OOC?!?

Now they're about to go full (fake) Hannigram, just like Whelk and I said. But I just thank you God for making me right.
posted by tel3path at 11:28 AM on April 17, 2014

And Hannibal was really mad after the Matthew Brown incident because Will had been lying about who he was all along, and when he finally chose to express it, he did so by cheating with another serial killer...

That's not a BREAKUP conversation, guys. That's a JEALOUSY conversation.
posted by tel3path at 11:51 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

OMG

The 5-person scene in S10... I do believe that it IS going to be (partly) Hannibal maintaining fake Hannibloom in one room while dashing to the true Hannigram action in another room, except that the rooms will be mental rather than physical.

Yeah.
posted by tel3path at 11:53 AM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

My own husband, a man who enever notices romantic subtext or flirting in real life or in TV, even he in the middle of Season one went "Uhhh, he's trying to seduce Will? Right?"

As much as I like the idea of Hannibal going to his Dream Palace (Of kissings) I am now more interested in a zany sex farce where Hannibal has promised himself to two people on the same night and tries to have both while making excuses to leave the room.
posted by The Whelk at 12:15 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am now more interested in a zany sex farce where Hannibal has promised himself to two people on the same night and tries to have both while making excuses to leave the room.

... all while dealing with having to make, er, preparations for his upcoming dinner party!
posted by rmd1023 at 12:17 PM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

This is not the first place I've heard Hannibal's having to keep up a public persona and exterior fiction and talk around the truth about his nighttime serial killing as being a kind of closet metaphor.

I think that *Hannibal* -- as the character, within the show -- is trying to create that metaphor (that he's just a man looking for love, someone who must keep his desires hidden for the sake of social acceptance, etc) as part of his facade. In his sessions with Bedelia it was like he couldn't talk in anything *but* those terms -- wanting to reach out to people (Will, Franklyn, whoever) out of love, admiration, human warmth, etc. Bedelia stopped buying it, thankfully. But that's Hannibal's MO in general -- he's always trying to cover things up by slapping romantic, lovely language and labels on them. He's not tormenting and trying to destroy Will, he "loves" him, he's not serving people their neighbors and friends, he's serving "haute cuisine," and on and on.

I think Hannibal uses the language and trappings of romantic desire as a cover for his actual desire to control and destroy other people. When he was forcing that tube down Will's throat and stuffing an ear into his stomach, I think that was as close as we'll be seeing (thankfully) to a rape scene -- that violence sure did look sexualized to me, but not in *anything* like a romantic way. This is a man who has so little respect for human beings that he kills and eats them, he strips away their autonomy through drugs, manipulations and violence, so that he can feel more powerful than any of them -- maybe he *also* feels romantic desire, but his driving desires, apparently, are to dehumanize and violate.

The closet metaphor makes sense to a certain extent, and it's certainly something that Hannibal pushes. The biggest Hannigram shipper in the world is apparently Hannibal himself, he goes on and on about his feelings for Will. To me, though, the way Hannibal tries to justify his relentless pursuit and torture of people as expressions of "love" just make the things he does even worse. I'm sorry to always bring this up, but it's like that little smile Hannibal had when Gideon ate his own leg and gave his compliments to the chef -- the way that Hannibal forces people to pretend that what he's doing to them is OK is just horrifying to me, as is the willingness of everyone else to go along with the idea that it's OK because it's out of ~love~. I see that a lot in his relationship with Will, where everything that Hannibal says is about how much he loves and cares for him, and then when he hurts him viciously, everyone Will goes to for help says, "oh, but Hannibal loves you," and pushes back to say that Hannibal isn't that kind of man. I feel like the ~relationship~ between Hannibal and Will is just a way that Hannibal covers up how viciously he's hurting him. To me, it's like that Leda painting Hannibal has -- Zeus is "seducing" Leda, but in that context, "seducing" always means rape.

I'm probably thinking too simplistically. It bothers me to say that Hannibal's feelings or actions are romantic, not because he might not *also* have the romantic desires he says/acts like he has, but because focusing on the "love" or "affection" or romantic desire that Hannibal professes seems to me to paint over the way he violates people right and left -- violence like that is completely unjustifiable, even by love, it's *not* romantic. But I guess if you're talking about romance as defined in something like 50 Shades of Grey, a comparison that tel3path brought up to me earlier, then I guess what Hannibal's doing to Will could be considered "romantic." I guess Hannibal's romance would fit with the mold of Twilight, too, if you want to talk about vampires specifically.
posted by rue72 at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

this just like, fell out of my head like fully formed.

SCENE ONE: Hannibal's living room. Dr. Chilton sits shoving bon bons into his mouth on the couch. Hannibal enters.

HANNIBAL: Chilly, I've put myself into quite the pickle.

CHILTON: Is it a hot pickle? Cause I liked the ones you made last time.

HANNIBAL: I'm afraid it's the sourest pickle of all.

CHILTON: So, not the ones you made bef-

HANNIBAL: Through the reckless excess of my own charm and the some flashing light arrays I have finally broken into Will Graham and Alana Bloom's hearts. I arranged a romantic dinner for two to seal the deal but in my haste and lust I scheduled them both on the same day! I won't have time enough to spend on both of them! What am I to do Chilton?

CHILTON: Just tell one that something has come up, or rather won't be coming up and you just have to cancel. Save it for next time.

HANNIBAL: That's impossible! They're both so perfectly ripe! They must be picked, peeled and pitted-

CHILTON: Your metaphors are getting away from you again.

HANNIBAL: - and if must be tonight. IF only I could stop time and reverse it somehow

CHILTON: Oh well that's not impossible.

HANNIBAL: Occupy two spaces at once, spooky action at a distance.

CHILTON: If only you had a twin.

HANNIBAL: Chilly you're right!

CHILTON: I'm right?

HANNIBAL: We could put them in separate rooms and work on them at the same time!

CHILTON: You want me to pretend to be you? Which one do I get?

HANNIBAL: Both! But not at the same time.

CHILTON: Tease.

HANNIBAL: We'll swap places during the harder parts and leave just enough gaps to blurr the borders of identity! It can't fail!

CHILTON: Well, unless someone turns on the lights-

EXCERPT FROM THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING HANNIBAL
posted by The Whelk at 1:08 PM on April 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

focusing on the "love" or "affection" or romantic desire that Hannibal professes seems to me to paint over the way he violates people right and left

I don't think anyone in this thread is really painting over anything, or in most places. I think some of the Hannigram shippers I see on tumblr get a little caught up in their feelings that way, but going that far feels like not the norm to me.

I agree that that this definitely makes a lot of what Hannibal's done to Will, and even to Bella to a certain extent (as I believe he has a kind of affection for her as well), even worse. I was kind of thinking about/feeling this in particular when I reacted to the Chilton frame up with, "OH GOD. THIS IS HOW HE FRAMES YOU WHEN DOESN'T LIKE YOU." Will's frame up got him shot and institutionalized, but as Chilton pointed out, his was very likely going to get him shot on sight before he could give himself up or get away.

Hannibal's killings are brutal, and awful, and include mutilations done while the victim is still alive, and that's terrible almost beyond my capacity for words... But it does feel a kind of worse to me that when he really, really likes you, instead of killing you, he subjects you to months and months of psychological torment as a way of expressing his affection.

There's some good stuff in the latest Matter Of Taste podcast about how he treats Will differently because he really, really wants to be able to let Will in past the Person Suit. They're definitely not wrong about that. There's some dialogue with Bedelia in the first season about "the possibility of friendship" being rare for Hannibal. But he can't get there unless he does this awful... "unlocking" of what he feels like Will's potential is. I think Madds touched on that as well in the Post Mortem thing.

It's can be really pretty difficult because of how insanely awful both modes of interaction with Hannibal are (food vs. friend, in the most fucked up Finding Nemo sense) to say which is worse. I don't think that's lost on most fans of the show.
posted by sparkletone at 1:45 PM on April 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think that Hannibal really believes he can have a viable intimate relationship and I think that in a way this really is his tragedy. Leda and the Swan tells us a lot about how he views relationships, "Each man kills the thing he loves".

The reason hannibloom was so bleak onscreen, and not at all the "hot" sexy romance we'd been led to expect, is that it was fake on both sides. Deep down Alana knows she is enacting a role. Her vibe all the way through it was so lifeless and lacking in energy. i saw people put it down to "caroline and mads have no chemistry" but that's nonsensical because if they had no chemistry they could act as if they did; they're actors. I can't conceive of any possible way the scenes didn't unfold exactly as intended.

I am certain that Hannibal does "love" Alana to the extent and in the way that he is capable, but it's still basically a fake romance. This is as far as Hannibal has been able to go in terms of intimacy. And then he immediately gets up and attends to the real business of the night, where he really shows that sprig of zest.

He thinks he has a shot at something real with Will because Will is someone who has extraordinary authenticity. This is how Will can manipulate Hannibal to the point of totally fucking his shit up, because even if Hannibal thinks he's being manipulated he won't be able to resist the desire for this one rare thing that money can't buy. It'll be Hannibal's latest trick turned back on itself: as with the fingerprint in the Chilton horror ride, and how Jack and Alana rationalized that away in an instant, Hannibal will look right at his own downfall and not see it until it's too late.

Yeah this is going to be a Twilight/50 shades romance, but unlike either of those narratives it's going to be shown for what it is. I think of hannibal as the anti-Twilight/50 shades because I think we can safely say hannigram is NOT gonna be marketed as the height of aspirational romance.

And speaking of 50 shades, I think that that's a story of a woman on the cusp of adult responsibility, deciding she wants no truck with it and reverting to young childhood in a relationship with a man who exerts horrifying control over her. On some level the character (not the author) knows this is wrong which is why she puts up with being punished severely for it. The disturbing part is how the author expresses all this with no awareness that that's what she's expressing. I think Alana is doing the same thing by entering into a relationship with Hannibal at this point because - as the fingerprint scene clearly shows - they know hannibal is the ripper, they just don't want to arrest him. In the previous episode alana was saying, in those words, that she couldn't be bothered to think any more and sorting all this out in her head was too hard. Her scene with giving Will the dogs back was disturbing on a variety of levels, one of which was that she was literally talking like a six- to nine-year-old child. The similarity to 50 Shades includes the way strangers and old enemies are constantly coming out of the woodwork to attack this perfect relationship that they have, and alana keeps on and on pledging her loyaly to Chedward... Um, Hanni... To anyone who will listen. Considering David Slade also directed the Twilight movies and 50 Shades is a Twilight fanfic I can't imagine that that resemblance is accidental either.

It's going to be horrifying. J'adore. Bring on the bloomihannigram triangle and watch my sanity disappear without trace. And the best thing about it? It's gonna keep the drama onscreen and definitely not encourage viewers to try it at home.
posted by tel3path at 3:35 PM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

I am now more interested in a zany sex farce where Hannibal has promised himself to two people on the same night and tries to have both while making excuses to leave the room.

Now I want someone to make a Hannibal vid to the theme song from Three's Company.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:36 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

It kinda pains me that the hannibal crackvid makers have only done the Friends intro so far.
posted by sparkletone at 4:50 PM on April 17, 2014

I'm sitting here waiting with a copy of final cut pro
posted by The Whelk at 4:55 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Now I am imagining Alana Bloom sing " I'm just a girl who can't say no" and cackling

"what ya going do if he says your lips are like berries!" "what if he says you're sweeter than cream and he's got to have cream or die!"
posted by The Whelk at 5:00 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Scene in The Importance Of Being Hannibal where Will and Alana passive aggressively spat at each other ala Cecily and Gwendolyn.
posted by The Whelk at 5:03 PM on April 17, 2014

The Crawfords as the Pastor and Miss Prism type yessss
posted by The Whelk at 5:11 PM on April 17, 2014

I love it when people smarter than me articulate things I'd been thinking. The closest I'd been able to get is 'Hannibal is at his most terrible when he's trying to be kind.' I think hannibloom is like a game for him- its trying out the person suit, and it's fun-- a sort of kicking the tires on this thing he's built. It's in the same class as his fancy suits and food and surroundings and whatnot. He doesn't want to do away with Alana, but he will if it's convenient.

Will is more privy to his essential self-- the murderbasement. Of course he'd desperately want someone to see who he is.

Ugh there's a whole dissertation on the queer reading of this show. I really need to get my Gender Studies major mom to sit down and watch the whole thing. She'd have the language to dissect it.
posted by dogheart at 5:16 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Both Mads and Fuller are pretty insistent that Hannibal thinks he's helping , that this is his version of being loving and supportive and making people better and it's fucking horrifying. The fandom is pretty clear eyed in how scary that is and dishing into how horrible it would be, not how romantic it is.

And that is very refreshing after years of the Twilight Bullshit.
posted by The Whelk at 5:18 PM on April 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

It's totally queer! A wealthy eccentric man is trying to cultivate a younger man into enjoying the secret nighttime activities he enjoys.
posted by The Whelk at 5:20 PM on April 17, 2014

I think Mads is expressing a thing that was in the Hannibal novel but not really expressed well in the movie, and he's knocking it out of the park. And that thing is that Hannibal's mission is to improve things.

What makes a good world for Hannibal Lecter? Well it's full of rich images, textures, sensations, aromas, and of course tastes. A world with more of those things is good; a world with less of them, or with annoying distractions, less so. What can be more poetic then but to turn a distracting rude person into a fine course of food? It's win-win.

Hannibal of course believes himself to be perfected and to be the idol which anyone should want to be. Most people are so undeveloped their best chance to contribute to Hannibal's better world is to be dinner, not because he's cruel but because it turns a bad thing into a good thing quite reliably.

But there are a few people -- very few -- who Hannibal thinks might be worth a more interesting fate. Will, book-Clarice, and Alana seem to fall here, and possibly (depending on what we learn about her) Mirian Lass. These are people who could be improved in other ways (mostly by making them more like Hannibal, but in book-Clarice's case just by cultivating a totally different unrealized aptitude) even more than they could be improved by being dinner. This is a much more difficult and dangerous but also, by its nature, more worthwhile and rewarding undertaking for Hannibal.

As for the Fifty Shades thing -- I am an actual practising sexual sadist. Please don't insult me by making comparisons to this ridiculously badly written claptrap fucked up fanfic book. Book-Hannibal and Series-Hannibal may be different but neither of them is very much like Mr. Not Twilight Vampire at all. For that matter neither am I, nor any real person I've ever known.

I don't think hannibal is playing with power in any way that is closely identifiable with S&M. Sadism is about creating feelings in the target of your affection. I don't think Hannibal is all that engrossed in feelings because, especially as Mads is playing him, Hannibal's own feelings are so tightly controlled he would never do anything as crude as experiencing the feelings of some crude rude person who needs to be improved vicariously.

Hannibal isn't practising S&M. He's practising art. And the really unlucky subjects of his artistic whimsy don't just end up quickly dead. They do end up on display, but alive.
posted by localroger at 6:48 PM on April 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Yeah this is going to be a Twilight/50 shades romance, but unlike either of those narratives it's going to be shown for what it is. I think of hannibal as the anti-Twilight/50 shades because I think we can safely say hannigram is NOT gonna be marketed as the height of aspirational romance.

I agree, I'm sorry if I sounded like I thought that fans, or the show on a meta level, weren't self-aware about that. I think we/they definitely are, and that the point of the Hannigram ship for many people is specifically how it takes the idea of an abusive "aspirational romance" in the same vein as 50 Shades to its logical conclusion and thus makes a mockery of it. I mean that the *characters,* including Hannibal, *do* seem to think that Hannigram is legit, that's what I think is horrifying and shocking about it. *Within the world of the show/Hannibal's POV* I do think Hannigram genuinely functions/is conceptualized as an aspiration romance.

Hannibal is *constantly* justifying his cruelty to other by saying he loves them, cares about them, etc, which is to be expected. That his justifications fly with the people around him starts getting a little shocking, at least to me. But those justifications do more than just fly, the other characters (especially but not solely Alana) also always seem to be echoing Hannibal's same "romantic" sentiments, about how Hannibal loves and cares for Will, Hannibal has Will's best interests at heart, Will is crazy to say that Hannibal is hurting him or dangerous, how dare Will ever try to hurt Hannibal, etc. And the thing that I personally find most frightening and horrific is how the *world of the show itself* is built in a way to *support* the abusive and lopsided-power-dynamic relationship of Hannigram in all it's glory -- that's where I think it's important that everyone (everyone!) assumes that Will is an unreliable narrator about his own life, that he's crazy or not worth listening to, that Hannibal *should* have power over him, etc.

In terms of how the world is built so that an abuser/victim relationship gets read and reinforced as "romantic," I do think that there is something going on with gender that's going over my head. I think it matters a lot that Hannibal and Will are *men* and that it's not a hetero relationship, and I also think it's important that the most sexualized violence we've seen happens between the two of them (though I think that the threat and violence coming from Matthew Brown was also sexualized).

It's totally queer! A wealthy eccentric man is trying to cultivate a younger man into enjoying the secret nighttime activities he enjoys.

I think that Hannibal *is* quasi-closeted in terms of sexuality, and I think he's definitely supposed to read as queer (in many ways, including sexuality). The closeted metaphor breaks down for me, though, in that the metaphor would at least symbolically equate the need to hide and subvert sexual desire and love with the need to hide and subvert a desire to violate and destroy people. I also think that the wrongness of that equivalency is part of *the point* of the metaphor. Where I think things get slippery about judging Hannibal, somewhat from the perspective of the audience and definitely from the perspectives of the characters, is that something stigmatized isn't necessary wrong, and something wrong isn't necessarily stigmatized.

The metaphor for being closeted also makes me think back to when Mariam was profiling the Ripper, and how Jack prompted her, "white male..." and she said, "not necessarily white...exotic somehow." Hannibal has mundane ways that he's "exotic," in the sense of non-normative, even within his own world (he's "foreign," queer, etc etc etc) but I think that what makes Hannibal "exotic" is something that alienates him from *humanity,* not just normative culture.

What troubles me about trying to figure out how human/monstrous Hannibal is, is that there's such a massive overlap between what's defined as normative and what's (who's) defined as "human," especially within the world of this show, where people are constantly being denied their humanity, often for what seem like completely frivolous reasons (like "rudeness," or Hannibal's capriciousness or convenience). So on the one hand, I think it's necessary not to deny Hannibal his humanity, since that he's willing to deny others theirs based on his own strange values system and POV is exactly what's so horrific about him, but at the same time, the things he does do seem so *monstrous* and *inhuman* that it's hard not to feel like that's just moral relativity carried much too far. So I dunno, what is the difference between someone or something that's stigmatized and someone or something that's wrong?
posted by rue72 at 8:00 PM on April 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well I think that's kind of Hannibal's point, he seduces you with "Well isn't my moral code just as valid" and makes you think that giving into it wouldn't be so bad. You'd have the best of everything and the only people who would die are people who don't follow your moral reasoning. That's the more upper level horror of Hannibal, that it makes you enjoy the crimes you commit, and in a more abstract way, makes you okay with the death and murder of others if it helps you enjoy something.

What actually does make his moral code less valid?

The only plausible argument that I think of: he's participating as a member of society/the state, and in doing so he's agreed to be bound by the social contract. The social contract requires that he grant the state a monopoly on violence. By committing (unlawful) violence, he's transgressed against the (power of the) state. The state can answer that transgression by coercing him to stop transgressing and/or by ejecting him from the state. In that scenario, though, his moral code can still be considered valid -- but it's also unlawful, and as a member of society, he can be made to answer to the law.

That also brings up all kinds of other problems w/r/t who makes and enforces the law. (That's why Jack is the most frustrating character possible to me. That man is so lucky he has Bella, or else he'd be at the very tip top of my Show-Related Shit List, even above Hannibal. Well, maybe not above Hannibal, but close).

I also think they're using all the nature/wilderness imagery to play with the idea of some people existing outside of society -- Garrett Jacob Hobbes, for sure -- and therefore outside the social contract/judgments/the law/etc. While he was in the BSHCI, I think Will was outside of society, too (and that was one reason he kept "becoming"/hallucinating that he was an animal while he was in there). He's also always connected with the outdoors, the dogs, fishing, etc, so I think he's also always an edge-case member of society in general.

Hannibal has been a member of society this whole time, though, I think? He sure loves the trappings, and the only animal associated with him is that weird stag-man that Will sees now lurking at all the Ripper's crime scenes, and even that "animal" is a stag-*man.*
posted by rue72 at 9:57 PM on April 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Localroger, I didn't bring up s&m, you did.

What those books do have in common with Hannibal is that Hannibal (the character) is selling abuse disguised as something else, and those books are selling abuse disguised as something else.
posted by tel3path at 11:19 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

What those books do have in common with Hannibal is that Hannibal (the character) is selling abuse disguised as something else

See, my problem with this is that I don't think Hannibal is selling abuse. He is selling improvement. He is not fundamentally motivated by what his victims feel, because he doesn't care what they feel. He only cares that they make a better contribution to the world in which they exist after he changes them. And that contribution is measured in terms of what Hannibal feels -- the sights, textures, and tastes which are available for him to experience.

A good example is Beverly. He didn't want to kill Beverly, he had to for logistical reasons in order to keep his other options open. As Will demonstrates he kills her quickly, efficiently, and without excessive suffering. But it is important for him to do something really interesting and artistic with her, something impressive, because otherwise he has made the world less interesting by removing her from it, and that's not what Hannibal is about.

According to Hannibal's tastes most people are more useful to the world as fine dishes than as annoying walking-around distraction machines, but there are exceptions such as Will, probably Alana, and maybe Bedelia and Miriam. These are people who might be even more interesting in life than they could be as dinner. But again, Hannibal doesn't see what he is doing to them as abuse; if it is painful that's only because transformation usually is. But it's the price of turning a catarpillar into a butterfly, a price Hannibal has no hesitation to impose on those catarpillars whose inner butterflies are visible to him.
posted by localroger at 5:34 AM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I like the Wilde comparison above, but I'd suggest that the intertext is really The Picture of Dorian Gray, which is among many other things a revision of the Faust story. But just as Wilde famously claimed that "every first novel is the author as Christ or Faust" and then wrote a novel featuring a sort of admixture of the two, Hannibal remixes the character dynamics so that Lector has traits of Dorian and Wooton; Faust and Mephistopheles.

Who is Hannibal but a kind of Satanic voluptuary, capable on the one hand of terrible things and possessing terrible knowledges, but on the other of "painting over" them, aestheticizing them entirely. Like Wooton, he tells Will (and others) that "the only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing;" like Mephistopheles, he also calls this an offer of power and knowledge. He even contains a bit of Dorian, a monster of aestheticism whose true face can be seen in his art. He wants to be seen without being seen. The season begins, after all, with his completion of a monstrous portrait in a way that added to its butchery; and Hannibal's manipulations of both Bedelia and Will strike me as attempts to have his portrait painted, his true face seen...but always in a deniable fashion.

And this is the show as well: taking the latter-day Lecter movies and books and all those "does the killer have a point?" reimaginings from Se7en to Saw and showing us that, no, it's all an act, the closet has a false back and the grotesque tableaux are merely the sensational distraction from a deeper abyss. I wonder if we can't read Hannibal in these terms, as a kind of pentimento di pentimento in which the original of moral horror is returned to and bleeds through the now-standard aestheticization of violence in the later Harris novels and movies, just as Hannibal's voluptuary sadism invariably involves him painting his monstrosity atop the aestheticized crimes of others in all those copycat murders.
posted by kewb at 5:35 AM on April 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Hannibal is selling abuse disguised as improvement. That he himself sees it as improvement doesn't make it so.
posted by tel3path at 6:49 AM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Funny you should mention Dorian Gray! I was just saying recently how no adaptation treats it like the elegant horror movie it is and I'm still pissed that Dexter stole the idea for the opening out of my head ( close ups of an elegant man getting ready that betray sinister murderous details.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:10 AM on April 18, 2014

That he himself sees it as improvement doesn't make it so.

I think Hannibal himself might find this observation rather ... rude :-)

Realistically, this just reduces to a word game, you say to-MAY-to I say to-MAH-to. Hannibal has reserved for himself the right to define those words, and since he is driving the plot forward by acting on his own definitions they are rather important.

He is of course aware that most people don't see the world as he does, and for the most part he doesn't care because he knows his is the superior point of view. However, it is important to note that a primary motivation for him, most especially with regard to Will, is that Will has the aptitude to share Hannibal's point of view. Will has the capacity to see improvement where others just see abuse. And cultivating this capacity in Will is Hannibal's improvement project for Will.

The main difference, and a very important one, between Hannibal and a character like Edian Greyllen is that the latter, and the objects of such sexual fantasies in general, are focused on feelings -- their feelings and perhaps, vicariously, their partner/victim's feelings. But feelings are internal, subjective, and fleeting.

Hannibal's focus is on the world around him. Hannibal's improvements can be observed and shared by all, they are objectively real and permanent. Whether some particular thing done to BellaStasia is abuse or affection is largely a matter of subjective judgement on her part, but Hannibal's efforts are very concrete. He could have, after all, just dumped Beverly's body somewhere to rot in solitude, but he went to some trouble to give her a more impressive exit. He does that kind of thing because external perception, beauty, and sensations are more important to him than internal feelings.
posted by localroger at 7:15 AM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I like your way of adversarially agreeing with me that Hannibal is better than Twilight/50 Shades.

Let me put it this way. Thesis: Hannibal is selling abuse disguised as improvement; antithesis: it really is improvement, as far as Hannibal is concerned; synthesis: it still is abuse.
posted by tel3path at 7:25 AM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

In Twilight and 50 Shades Bella and Anastasia are Mary Sue, and those stories attained their immense popularity because readers identify with those characters and wish to vicariously share their experiences.

In HarrisWorld, Hannibal is Mary Sue, but nobody is really hoping to vicariously share any of the characters' experiences, because Hannibal is a monster from Hell and OMFG nobody has any doubt that what he does to other people is not something you want to deliberately sign up for.
posted by localroger at 8:10 AM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Bingo. The anti-Twilight and the anti-50 Shades.
posted by tel3path at 9:08 AM on April 18, 2014

Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people identify with Alana to some degree. There certainly are a lot of people out there going SHE DOESN'T KNOW and SHE HAS NO REASON TO MISTRUST HIM. I hope those people are gonna learn from whatever happens next, in fact, I don't see how they could fail to.
posted by tel3path at 9:12 AM on April 18, 2014

su-zakana previews, OMG

Will is STILL all they can talk about

Anyway, it's countdown time. Goodbye friends i am gone [/sploop]
posted by tel3path at 9:39 AM on April 18, 2014

Just realized (again?) from rewatching the preview for tonight and looking at the promo stills again which murder tableau is this week's and GOOD LORD HOW ARE THEY GETTING AWAY WITH THIS STUFF.
posted by sparkletone at 9:40 AM on April 18, 2014

It helps that nobody is watching so there is no-one to complain about it.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 AM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I mean, I love the show but when it comes to viewers there are literally dozens of us. Dozens!
posted by Justinian at 11:24 AM on April 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm more evangelical about this show than any other in recent memory. So far I've personally gotten two people to watch it, one of whom is now as obsessed as I am.

My parents watched the season 2 opener without having seen season 1, and "were confused". Well duh! Maybe I should make a deal with them: watch season one, or I shut off the questionably-legal Game of Thrones pipeline they've been enjoying...
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:29 AM on April 18, 2014

Hannibal is like the Velvet Underground, theres not many fans but every fan produces a 5 thousand word critical essay on it.
posted by The Whelk at 2:22 PM on April 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

What is this I don't even (link is spoiler free, simply a GIF of something out of context and ... well. You'll see.)
posted by sparkletone at 5:45 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

NOT LOOKING
posted by The Whelk at 5:47 PM on April 18, 2014

Well, you can "REALLY, SHOW?" now or later. Either's fine!
posted by sparkletone at 5:48 PM on April 18, 2014

I'm having an awful lot of cognitive dissonance with that gif. Which really sums up a lot of things about the show, I suppose.
posted by dogheart at 5:57 PM on April 18, 2014

I PREPARED MY FRIDAY HANMIBAL FEAST
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on April 18, 2014

My wife fixed me pie.

Delicious meat pie.

Pretty sure the meat was pork.
posted by localroger at 6:20 PM on April 18, 2014

Also: Did double check, still have both legs. *whew*
posted by localroger at 6:21 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Will will you're drinking during the day and talking in metaphors again
posted by The Whelk at 7:04 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

CHILTON SPOKEN OF IN THE PRESENT TENSE. HE LIIIVES.
posted by sparkletone at 7:05 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN MAKE CANNIBAL PUNS DR LECTER
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

This tableau was described in an article. The writer described a call with network execs where Fuller narrated this scene. It mentioned everyone being disgusted. I can't fucking believe they got this on the air.
posted by sparkletone at 7:07 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

To paraphrase Seal: Why must we fish in metaphors?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:09 PM on April 18, 2014

Is a fish eating its own tail auto-filletio?
posted by Small Dollar at 7:11 PM on April 18, 2014

O hai, Mason.
posted by sparkletone at 7:13 PM on April 18, 2014

Its been one minute and I love Margo's everything
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure what I found more disturbing: The slo mo sexy sex or the horse people caesarian.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:16 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Who am I kidding the horse caesarian wins by a nose.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:17 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Good psychiatrist" and that smirk. You smug goddam asshole, Hannibal.
posted by sparkletone at 7:17 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

W E L P.
posted by sparkletone at 7:18 PM on April 18, 2014

Oh GOD please don't let this be people turducken.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

The article described both the lady in the horse and the living bird in the lady, but was vague about when/where each would come out. I almost thought they weren't going to do the bird part when they moved the woman away from where she was discovered and then... WELP.
posted by sparkletone at 7:20 PM on April 18, 2014

A good pyscharatrist and the smuggest fucking smile ever die die die
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on April 18, 2014

STARLINGS. SHOWWWWWW.

(I'm not talking about the other thing, because it killed me. You're welcome.)
posted by dogheart at 7:21 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think she just gave birth to a GoT spoiler.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:21 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

IT'S A STARLING

AND IN THE BOOK CLARICE STOLE A PONY
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Apparently, this is why they gave us the Garrett Jacob Hobbes "slow clap" gif footage back in S1. For the starling.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:26 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

WHY IS LEE MERIWETHER TWEETING ABOUT OUR SHOW.
posted by sparkletone at 7:26 PM on April 18, 2014

These are not the waters in which I expected the Good Ship Hannigram to sail.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:30 PM on April 18, 2014

Hugh Dancy in this therapy scene is scaring the shit out of me (GO WILL GO. GET HIM.).
posted by sparkletone at 7:31 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Hai there William Lecter, yes you are still THE CREPPIEST
posted by The Whelk at 7:31 PM on April 18, 2014

I would watch an entire episode of this therapy scene. Oh my god.
posted by Stacey at 7:35 PM on April 18, 2014

Dat smirk was perfect. Will's got him on the hook. It's interesting how Hannibal's been almost giddy (well, for Hannibal) during this episode, even making excuses for Will while he's in bed with Alana.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:35 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Where does one procure a leather sling? Is there a designer medical supplies store? Is it the same store that sells murder suits?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:38 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh my god, did Hannibal just.... offer to be a hitman?
posted by sparkletone at 7:38 PM on April 18, 2014

The bell chimey sound shit in this episode is killing me. They randomly flip around backwards and stuff. I love it.
posted by sparkletone at 7:41 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Criss cross... I'll do your murder, you'll do mine...
posted by wabbittwax at 7:42 PM on April 18, 2014

I choose to believe somewhere there's an Etsy seller making bespoke plastic suits and leather slings.
posted by Stacey at 7:42 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

No Hannibal is going to offer up his trainee serial killer Will as a trust execercise.

Plus this is someone Will can feel good about killing cause Hannibal figures that's going to be Will's Superpower.
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 PM on April 18, 2014

Social worker bro's person suit is exceptionally poorly tailored. SO CREEPY.
posted by sparkletone at 7:46 PM on April 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Wow that was the smoothest exercise of 5A rights I've ever seen.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:46 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I AM SO UPSET
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on April 18, 2014

Jeremy Davies breakin' my heart. Twitter and tumblr both planning a kickstarter to pay for his bail.
posted by sparkletone at 7:52 PM on April 18, 2014

Aaaaaaaand I finally realize that this is all a metaphor for Hannigram. Good fucking lord, show. FEEEEELS.
posted by sparkletone at 7:54 PM on April 18, 2014

Will knows how to cut to the chase with a simple question.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:55 PM on April 18, 2014

LAMB FOR THE WIN
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on April 18, 2014

W E L P TO END ALL W E L PS
posted by sparkletone at 7:57 PM on April 18, 2014

You can almost hear Hannibal's murder woody.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on April 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

I love my show so much.
posted by Stacey at 7:57 PM on April 18, 2014

The upside to being sewn into a horse is that no one can tell if you defecate when there is an unhinged dude pointing a gun at you.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:59 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

HANNIBAL PLAYS GOD ONCE AGAIN, I AM BEHIND THE COUCH YELLING AT MY COMPUTER BECAUSE AAAHHHHHH WILL NO. He... opened the door (that they've talked about inside him). So that Hannibal could see it. Oh god. Not okay. :(
posted by sparkletone at 7:59 PM on April 18, 2014

Oh, but I guess one should be careful of assumptions when asking questions like that
posted by rmd1023 at 7:59 PM on April 18, 2014

The lead story on my local NBC affiliate is about sick horses, oh my god.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:01 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

I have the weirdest boner right now
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

So that felt... masterful on almost all levels? One of the best episodes of the season so far, if not the best? It completely pays off how much last week felt like shuffling pieces on the board to setup the second half of the season. God damn.
posted by sparkletone at 8:01 PM on April 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Aww, it's gonna be Dr. Lecter's School For Budding Serial Killers
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

There's going to be a seminar in the first semester devoted entirely to framing your patients for murder.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:03 PM on April 18, 2014

Look Hannibal, Margot is ALL READY TO BE MURDERBROS WITH YOU.
posted by dogheart at 8:04 PM on April 18, 2014

Yeah, that felt pretty amazing. But also I think I need to rewatch because of how many different layers every conversation was operating on. And because I can't believe how few fucks NBC Standards and Practices gives.
posted by Stacey at 8:04 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sepinwall was mostly positive.
posted by sparkletone at 8:05 PM on April 18, 2014

Dr. Lecter is fucking Mickey Mouse he is making those broomsticks DANCE BROOMSTICKS DANCE and he is so totally controlling everything at least until he decides it might be a good idea for those broomsticks to stop dancing.
posted by localroger at 8:06 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

How can the ratings for this show be worse than a show that is so unwatcheable as Dracula? We are truly living in an unjust universe.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:06 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

The picture on the stream I was watching froze so I kinda missed the preview for next week. Sounded like Hannibal talking very candidly with a killer? Will catch it on the rewatch that I'll do in a few minutes.
posted by sparkletone at 8:07 PM on April 18, 2014

I can't believe how few fucks NBC Standards and Practices gives.

9 PM Friday with NASTY VIOLENCE WARNING.
posted by localroger at 8:07 PM on April 18, 2014

I love how Mason is such a monster we don't get to see him yet, just the martinis salted with his sister's tears and her arm in a HEY SHE'S RICH IT'S A DESIGNER SLING and some vague hints that rapey incest may be an ongoing problem.
posted by localroger at 8:11 PM on April 18, 2014

Will: Why are you collecting stay serial killers?

Hannibal: I learned it by watching you!
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on April 18, 2014

I just keep laughing at these murder scenes. Dude climbing out of the horse made me laugh so hard. What is this show doing to me?
posted by dogheart at 8:11 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"This is an example of how good Jeremy Davies is... I asked if he could not cry during that shot for the sound. He gave exactly the same performance EXCEPT he made no vocal sound I asked if [Jeremy Davies] could not cry during that shot for the sound. He gave exactly the same performance EXCEPT he made no vocal sound" -- One of the sound guys on the show talking on twitter (@manatee73) about filming Jeremy Davies during a scene near the end.
posted by sparkletone at 8:13 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

NBC's made Friday evenings horror night. The usual leadin, Grimm, has some pretty icky stuff happen, and Dateline is kinda lurid too.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:13 PM on April 18, 2014

What is this show doing to me?

BECOMING.
posted by localroger at 8:13 PM on April 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

AV Club stuffs a minus inside an A and then that A- inside a horse.
posted by sparkletone at 8:15 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Skipped to the end and watched the preview first before starting on the episode itself. WOW is that guy making a monster getup giving me some Red Dragon feels.
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on April 18, 2014

I just hope the Lecter School of Serial Killers and Murder Wizardry doesn't choose a mustang as it's mascot.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:21 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I guess it's not the murder family you're given but the murder family you find
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

I. I. I don't even know what is going on.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:24 PM on April 18, 2014

right now? Shippers having dissociative episodes.
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Mason's going to act up again and Margot's going to say she's planning to murder him and Hannibal's going to "take action" to "prevent" it. Also, wow, that sex scene is way more crazy and intense when it's clear and not a bunch of pixelated compression artifact blur.
posted by sparkletone at 8:39 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

And Mason is gonna be Will's last loyalty test, and the last big cliff Will can fall off.
posted by The Whelk at 8:42 PM on April 18, 2014

as someone on the A.V Club put it

GOODBYE HORSES.
posted by The Whelk at 8:53 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh wait, BBC is doing an Orphan Black marathon. Phew.
posted by homunculus at 9:10 PM on April 18, 2014

Well, crap. It's 9:00 PM on the West Coast, which is when I watch Grimm because it's a silly fun hors d'oeuvre to munch on for an hour while I wait for the delicious main course that is Hannibal. But it's not on tonight. What am I supposed to do for an hour?! Fucking NBC.

Most shows are taking tonight off because it's Good Friday. Hannibal's had so many jesus poses this season, they figure they're fine.
posted by sparkletone at 9:11 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Weird side question: Having never done it... Ignoring the difficulty, sticking your finger between the hammer of a pistol and the bullet really fucking hurts right? Like it's like having a really harsh clothespin pinch or something right? Hannibal doesn't give a shit though (not that I'd expect him to show it in this context).
posted by sparkletone at 9:17 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

where is the crackvid of that last scene with "Kiss the Girl" dubbed over it allready do i have to do everything here
posted by The Whelk at 9:19 PM on April 18, 2014

We need the horse bits to Katy Perry. There's also a strong need for a "SENPAI NOTICED ME" GIF involving the microsmile Hannibal makes in response to "now that I finally find you interesting."

Fandom needs to get to work!
posted by sparkletone at 9:22 PM on April 18, 2014

OH GOD THE GIF SET SHOWS THAT THAT MARGO IS MIMICING THE SPEAR IN THE MARTINI WHEN SHE'S BENT OVER THE EEL POOL
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 PM on April 18, 2014

Sparkletone, I will check on that hopefully sometime this weekend. My dad's a scary gun nut, so it shouldn't take much convincing to get him to let me shoot at things this weekend. (I'm a little curious if that would even work, myself, especially with a semiauto.)
posted by dogheart at 9:27 PM on April 18, 2014

(I'm a little curious if that would even work, myself, especially with a semiauto.)

It's maybe a bit super human maybe that Hannibal could time things perfectly to get his finger in place, but I know for a fact that you can totally do that with at least some revolvers. Like I've heard of real life accounts of people doing that, just not any detail on how much it hurts or how much it fucks up your finger.
posted by sparkletone at 9:32 PM on April 18, 2014

A revolver, yeah, but I don't think that was a revolver? I'll have to rewatch, and again, ask my dad, but I promise to report back.

(Not that actual logic has a whole lot to do with what happens on this show, but I'm genuinely curious now.)
posted by dogheart at 9:40 PM on April 18, 2014

A revolver, yeah, but I don't think that was a revolver?

It was definitely a revolver, not the gun Will's been wielding in past episodes for reasons unexplained. They do a whole super close-up-pull-focus shot on it. I kinda think it's likely Will only had that gun as opposed to his usual in this episode to make the hammer thing work (which is weak sauce but whatever).
posted by sparkletone at 9:43 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Is your social worker in that horse?" Truly one of the most beautiful and bizarre lines of dialogue ever uttered.
posted by crossoverman at 9:58 PM on April 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

Fuller said it's his favorite line they've had on the show to date or some such thing. I... Totally believe that it is.
posted by sparkletone at 10:03 PM on April 18, 2014

This week's walk through is up.
posted by sparkletone at 10:05 PM on April 18, 2014

“Is that horse your social worker?” [Laughs.]

Our Glorious Leader.
posted by sparkletone at 10:10 PM on April 18, 2014

It was definitely a revolver, not the gun Will's been wielding in past episodes for reasons unexplained. They do a whole super close-up-pull-focus shot on it. I kinda think it's likely Will only had that gun as opposed to his usual in this episode to make the hammer thing work (which is weak sauce but whatever).

Well for god's sake, you don't commit murder with your own personal gun! This is murder 101, people.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:25 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

(Dare I say I found the parallel between horse kick guy/social worker and Will/Hannibal to be slightly heavy-handed? Like, of COURSE you found a mentally damaged guy being framed by an evil guy at this narratively perfect moment.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:27 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

I dunno, sure we can spot these convenient narrative parallels, but we're looking for them. I don't think the execution of the parallel was heavy-handed at all.
posted by crossoverman at 10:31 PM on April 18, 2014

Can I just sat, making Margot in therapy as an adult who tried to kill her abuser vs. being a child in therapy dealing with being abused is kind of a master stroke.
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

(if for the only reason it makes the Verger parents even more scary and shows how rich and crazy the family is with one scene )
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The horse kicked animal lover is named for the father of St. Francis of Assisi.
posted by maggieb at 10:35 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I was so worried he was going to be the killer and I like that Ted Bundy Analog was it instead.
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

also the line about cutting the bird being dead before it went in is a great example of how tricky and subtle TONE can be when making a narrative. It comes down to gut feeling, lines you can cross and can't. The answer to "how much is to much: is personal and the center of creating mood, tone, and genre.
posted by The Whelk at 10:40 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I dunno, sure we can spot these convenient narrative parallels, but we're looking for them.

This. We've been trained by the show for a season and a half to look for thematic parallels and stuff between cases of the week and the overarching story. This time it was obvious ... But also the execution was great and I think not any more blunt than it needed to be.
posted by sparkletone at 10:40 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

From the walkthrough:

Actually, there was one point in the draft, and it felt like it had gone too far, but there was one point in the draft, where the bird that Peter Bernardone had put inside the corpse’s chest was dead. It would have been this weird little X-Files moment of what happened there? What magic took place? But we’re not necessarily grounded in the magic world, so I cut that line from the script. But in my mind, the bird was dead when he put it in the chest.

I actually did have a moment, when the guy asked if the bird was alive, when I thought he was going to say it had been dead when he put it in. And I grew up watching the X-Files...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:44 PM on April 18, 2014

(I'm actually dealing with a literal "okay HOW supernatural can events get before this stops being the kind of story I want to tell?" question right now so that line stood out for me.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:44 PM on April 18, 2014

Four and Twenty Blackbirds

It is known that a 16th-century amusement was to place live birds in a pie, as a form of entremet. An Italian cookbook from 1549 (translated into English in 1598) contained such a recipe: "to make pies so that birds may be alive in them and flie out when it is cut up" and this was referred to in a cook book of 1725 by John Nott.

posted by maggieb at 10:52 PM on April 18, 2014

Say- in that Sepinwall review, he says

Will lays out his strategy to Jack (not that Jack understands it) in the ice fishing scene

That's not the impression I got at all. I absolutely thought Jack understood what Will was saying in that scene. I think Jack still suspects Hannibal, but knows he has no evidence, and is doing... well, what Jack does, which is let his proteges conduct questionably ethical investigations on his behalf.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 PM on April 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Oh and one final question, how was that bird breathing in there
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 PM on April 18, 2014

That's not the impression I got at all. I absolutely thought Jack understood what Will was saying in that scene.

I think Jack absolutely understands and is 100% on Team Will right now. He's letting Will do his thing re: luring the fish.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:11 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Question: is there actually ice fishing anywhere in the Baltimore area?

Observation re: blue/red color flags. Will was in his blue shirt, but Hannibal's office was lit in such a way as to highlight the deep red of all the walls and curtain accents surrounding them. A... womb of red?
posted by lovecrafty at 11:17 PM on April 18, 2014

For the purposes of this show Baltimore exists in a place where it's always winter and never Christmas.

(I had to begrudgingly admit to a fellow mefite that YES MAYBE BALTIMORE GETS COLD ENOUGH FOR THE LAYERS WE SEE ON THE SHOW whne I was down there in winter.)
posted by The Whelk at 11:23 PM on April 18, 2014

Some SotL references:

- Thing in the throat discovered on the autopsy table
- Chrysalis theme
- Starling in the body
- Hannibal pets a (very quiet) sheep
posted by lovecrafty at 11:35 PM on April 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

also form the book version

PONIES.
posted by The Whelk at 11:38 PM on April 18, 2014

GOODBYE HORSES
posted by The Whelk at 11:39 PM on April 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

So how long can Will keep up the "I'll bring the meat" thing?

Not that I think Hannibal would risk serving human to Will before he's sure Will is really on Team Hannibal. He remembers that comment about a stool sample.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:45 PM on April 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

So how long can Will keep up the "I'll bring the meat" thing?

I got the feeling that Will had to be forced to be at that dinner. Not that it was ever stated explicitly or even that heavily implied, but like. There's all this talk of reconciliation and then Will brings up the whole "tried to kill Hannibal" thing in the most pointed way possible and Jack gives him the most amazing "DON'T YOU EVEN START" look.

Like I said, there's not enough explicit evidence to support, but my feeling is that Will was there as part of the ploy to lure Hannibal. It's just with Jack there he couldn't be as pointed about his... distaste as he was in that omfgamazing therapy scene.
posted by sparkletone at 12:15 AM on April 19, 2014

“I can feed the caterpillar, I can whisper through the chrysalis but it hatches, it follows its own nature and that’s beyond me.”

I loved how ebullient (for him) Hannibal was when he delivered that line. Mikkelsen's performance is perfect.
posted by homunculus at 12:15 AM on April 19, 2014 [5 favorites]

Wow, for once Hannibal was genuinely likable! What! I cracked up laughing at both these lines of his:

To Margot: "It probably would have been more therapeutic if you'd killed him."

While Alana is lying naked on top of him: "Well then it's healthy he's back in therapy...with a good psychiatrist [smirk]"*

*Definitely a crack against Chilton, but also a crack against Alana? I wish she'd given him a hard time back! But I'll give her a break, since she was likely still sex-addled.

Hannibal did seem ebullient, the whole episode really. He loves having Will back so much, there was no way that he wasn't going to cook some kind of meal for him! I'm surprised there weren't banners and streamers and maybe a cake that he found out from some crazy facebook stalking is Will's favorite. I guess he gets sassy when he's happy! If so, I hope he just gets happier and happier. This was more than I'd liked him since ever.

(I'm a little curious if that would even work, myself, especially with a semiauto.)

If anyone knows about guns -- is there a reason why Hannibal couldn't or wouldn't have just nudged Will's arm or something? Is there a real-life reason why Hannibal would choose to block the hammer with his thumb like that, or was that just a stylistic choice?

(Dare I say I found the parallel between horse kick guy/social worker and Will/Hannibal to be slightly heavy-handed? Like, of COURSE you found a mentally damaged guy being framed by an evil guy at this narratively perfect moment.)

I think it was supposed to be heavy-handed, so that the characters themselves couldn't ignore the parallel. Also, I think that the parallel wasn't *just* with Will-as-Peter, and Hannibal-as-Clark, I think it also goes the other way around. I think that Will was only seeing Will-as-Peter (and not Will-as-Clark) because he was so self-righteous in this episode, but I don't think that's all *we're* supposed to be seeing. I'll have to think about what the actual hints were that made me think that, though. One of those hints was in the interrogation scene, when Alana pushed Clark on his feelings and finally lunged at his hands, causing Clark to jerk away from her, and Jack, Hannibal and Will seemed to take Clark's discomfort as a sign that Clark was a psychopath. That interrogation scene reminded me of the scene in the first episode this season, when she moved to grab Will's hands across the table like that right after she'd hypnotized him and he also tried to get away, but he was chained to the table and she just moved closer and wouldn't let go. Also, in that scene, Will mentioned specifically that Clark had dead eyes, which I thought was interesting since he's said before that looking at people's eyes is distracting -- that made me wonder what Will might have been missing while he was "distracted" by Clark's.

Another parallel might be Margot-as-Peter and Verger-as-Clark, though I'll have to think more about how that works or why it might matter. (Also, Margot is such a breath of fresh air! She seems so dangerous but she also seems so girlish when she says these naive things, like that her family doesn't like her because they think she's "weird" -- I didn't realized that character was exactly what the show needed until they gave her to us! Can't wait to meet Verger now, either).

Anyway, Will needs to get a grip on himself, though. Hannibal apparently thinks it's cute when Will starts getting all rude and uppity (that dinner was bad enough, but that therapy session? phew!) but Will needs to take it down a notch before he works himself into a real state and can't keep a clear head. Eyes on the prize! I think that's actually what Hannibal was telling Will at the end in the barn, and it's also how Hannibal advised Margot to handle things with Verger ("wait until you won't get caught") -- I hope that both Will and Margot heed that advice, it's good no matter what the source.

Also, is it just me, or did Alana and Jack both seem really clumsy and awkward in this episode? Jack seemed so uncomfortable when he was talking to Peter for that first interview, and Alana seemed so weird and heavy-handed when she was interrogating Clark.
posted by rue72 at 2:10 AM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

Question: is there actually ice fishing anywhere in the Baltimore area?

Maybe if you head west, toward West Virginia. That's pretty much where people in the area head for "wilderness," aside from the Eastern Shore. It starts getting mountainous out there, so it gets cold -- it's plausible that there's ice fishing, but I'm nowhere near outdoorsy enough to tell you if many people actually do ice fish or when/how/where exactly they do it. This is the kind of trout I associate with Baltimore. Getting lake trout there is maybe what getting a slice of pizza is in NY?

Anyway, the geography on this show doesn't make sense altogether, so I wouldn't worry about it. The drive between Quantico and Baltimore would be an absolute nightmare. Wolf Trap is a concert venue, not a county. Etc.
posted by rue72 at 2:30 AM on April 19, 2014

Thinking about it a bit more, maybe the point of making the Peter/Clark and Will/Hannibal so heavy handed was to make it impossible for *Hannibal* to miss? A lightbulb seemed to go off for Will when he saw Peter for the first time (with Jack). Will was trying to milk that parallel for all it was worth, he even made the parallel explicit when he and Jack and Hannibal were watching Alana question Clark ("I know what it's like to point a finger at a murderer..."). When Will had his stand-in, Matthew Brown, threaten Hannibal, he was so successful at getting Hannibal's attention and getting him to take action (by exonerating him, etc), I think he was trying to get more of Hannibal's attention and force Hannibal to make a move by threatening Hannibal's stand-in (Clark). Apparently it worked, since Hannibal did make a statement by forcing Will not to shoot Clark, and then Hannibal stood around cradling Will's face in his hands, so it seems like Hannibal loves Will more than ever.

Meanwhile, Will was also feeding Hannibal a bunch of S1 callbacks, like saying he was Peter's "friend" (when he had the gun on Clark), and saying "don't lie to me" to Hannibal in that therapy session, like he did when he was actually losing it and brought Gideon over to Hannibal's. I think Will's overall goal was to make himself look vulnerable, in order to get Hannibal's predatory instincts going (like he said he was going to try to do, while he was ice fishing with Jack). I think he was also so rude at dinner, and really throughout the episode, because he's trying to make himself look like "prey" to Hannibal.

I hate having to trust that Will has superhuman powers of emotional control, though. When he said that he envied Peter for "knowing what to feel" and then went on a tangent about finally finding a "friend," that really could have been Hannibal talking. I guess I just have to go with the idea that Will is *already* Hannibal to a great extent, but in the useful as well as horrible ways, and not worry that he's going to stoke his own rage up until it actually does cloud his judgement or that he's otherwise going to act rashly, or that he's really showing his feelings rather than a facade, and that even though he's making himself look vulnerable he's got things handled? Jeez, that's a lot to take on trust. I dunno, what are we even supposed to think of Will's mental state right now?

Also, are we actually supposed to trust Jack? Last episode, he didn't bring the rest of the FBI to come get Chilton, was shooting wildly at him, and then Mariam shot him with Jack's gun. To me, that sounds like even if he's sort-of-kind-of going along with whatever plan Will has concocted (which likely included bringing in Chilton, I think, seeing as Will had been trying to get him to confess to all kinds of illegal stuff -- the psychic driving, etc -- for what felt like the longest time), Jack was also being reckless and wanting to put his own stamp on it and screwing things up. I think that Jack is really just looking out for Jack, and I just don't know if he can follow Will's lead properly even if he is trying to work with him.

I'm also kind of worried that, in putting together this capture-Hannibal plan, Jack is overcompensating for not trusting Will before by putting too much trust in him now. Which I know, I know, Will can at least *somewhat* safely game like this (or at least I'm trying to "know" that so that I can just enjoy watching the show instead of being constantly distracted by the Grey Cloud that is Will's Impending Psychotic Break. Because best case scenario, he gets into Hannibal's head -- how is he getting out? Maybe Will doesn't give a shit, but *someone* ought to. "Someone" as in, maybe, his boss*/"handler"/co-conspirator setting himself up for the glory of "reeling in" the Ripper, aka, Jack. But I digress.). Anyway, Will actually did need help last season, it's not like he's invincible, even if he would, for obvious reasons, like to think he is. So why make him such a vulnerable stress point in the plan to get Hannibal? CAN NOBODY EVER HAVE A PLAN B ON THIS SHOW. It would make me so much more confident that Jack isn't just going to flake out or be oblivious while things fall apart if they at least had a known contingency plan and some kind of emergency communication method in place. Not that Will is even likely to use it, especially if he becomes even more Hannibal-esque, but I hope that at least Jack has learned something from the debacle of last season and puts actual fail-safes in place this time?

*I know that Will said that he's "really not" working for the FBI now, but in a regular show I'd call bullshit because there's no way that he could afford to take time off after not working for so long and seeing all those legal bills pile up besides, and on this show, I still call bullshit because otherwise why is he carrying around what I assume is a service revolver and why is he hanging around with Jack constantly -- those are obviously work-related things. He's obviously still working for law enforcement.
posted by rue72 at 4:56 AM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

it makes the Verger parents even more scary

Most people don't remember because it was a very small coda in the novel Hannibal, and we mostly only saw Mason after he got Lecterized, but Pa Verger was indeed a piece of work. There is a passage where Mason recounts his father taking him to county fairs and showing him how to test the animals' skin fat thickness by surreptitiously stabbing them with a concealed blade. It was made clear he was a man who went into the meat business because he loved the blood and suffering and madness of the charnel house and he sincerely believed and taught his son that cruelty makes the world go 'round.

It's not said explicitly but is very strongly implied that Pa Verger also knew what Mason was doing to Margot, and approved because that demonstrated the kind of strong character he wanted Mason to have.
posted by localroger at 6:44 AM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think that Jack is really just looking out for Jack.

It's very explicit in both Red Dragon and SOTL that Jack is a person who mainly looks out for Jack, and will cheerfully throw anyone under the bus if he needs to to get what he wants.
posted by localroger at 6:46 AM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think he means he doesn't consider himself an FBI agent. Will is working for Will now. And yes, he needs the money, which is probably a major reason why Jack is giving him the work.

I think Will is in grave moral danger right now, even though he lucidly chose to subject himself to it.
posted by tel3path at 7:53 AM on April 19, 2014

I think Will is in grave moral danger right now

I think everyone is in grave mortal danger right now, because I got a feeling when Hannibal decides to make the broomsticks stop dancing they're gonna shape-shift into scythes.
posted by localroger at 7:57 AM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Dr Lecter's FISHING School For Budding Serial Killers
posted by tel3path at 8:01 AM on April 19, 2014

As to the narrative parallel - a person in power stitching up (if you'll pardon the pun) someone who can be dismissed as mentally compromised is not exactly an uncommon scenario. I think the whole point of the SHOW is that it's not exactly an uncommon scenario.
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on April 19, 2014

God Will at the dinner table in the first scene, being served the fish he caught stuffed inside another fish, Hannibal looking at him all " remain perfectly perfectly still only I may make ironic cannibal puns."

Just the utter delight on Hannibal's face when Will tells him to cut the bullshit and that he's thought about killing him with his hands. It's like he just wants to take out all his art murder fanzines and spread them on the floor " you finally get me! I have someone to talk to about this! What do you think about the use of flower language in metaphorical arranges, too obscure? Also do you want more about your hands and what they can do to me?"
posted by The Whelk at 8:09 AM on April 19, 2014 [5 favorites]

When Will says "I'm Peter's friend" he isn't only referring to Peter Bernadone. In Hassun Hannibal said he felt like St Peter, denying Will three times. It's another reminder that Will is in a Christlike position. Does Christ go around shooting people in the head? I think not. I do think that Will might be in the situation where he fasts for 40 days and then is tempted by the Devil, who shows him the world and says "all this I will give to you if you will bow down and worship me." Um, Devil old chap, Jesus is God and He actually owns the world so you do realise you are offering Him what is already His at a high price? Oh well.

The trouble Will has is that unfortunately for him, he's only human and not God, which means some sin is inevitable. There is no way, practically or even theologically, that he can kid himself he's going to get through this uncompromised. The question is how compromised.

Anyway, Peter's friend. Comparing it to the source, Peter is totally mortified and embarrassed to approach Jesus when He reappears to the apostles. But Jesus just magnanimously waves it aside, because all He cares about is being friends now.

In this episode Hannibal says let's just forget it all and just be friends! Sounds almost Christlike in its generosity! Unless you're SITTING RIGHT THERE AT THE TABLE and you know there's WAY FUCKING MORE TO THE STORY and that that kind of cheap forgiveness is not the right kind of deal to be cutting!

I should add that when Jesus reappeared to the apostles, it was on a fishing boat. The fish weren't biting that day, and then along comes Jesus and says "guys, haven't you got any fish?" and they suddenly have a ginormous net full. And the first thing the apostles did with their resurrected friend was have fish and chips together. (I firmly believe that if chips had been invented, they would have had them. That is my headcanon.)

Really superb timing for the air date of this episode. Love it.
posted by tel3path at 8:19 AM on April 19, 2014

CHILTON LIVES.
posted by sparkletone at 8:29 AM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

I like how Alana is worried primarily about Hannibal's safety in being the provider of Will's therapy, and seemingly oblivious to the fact that it is the most ginormous conflict of interest EVAR. It would be so even if Will were simply Hannibal's personal friend, never mind trying to kill him.

Put Alana in front of someone who isn't a friend, and she is plenty incisive and observant. Which I presume is the point.
posted by tel3path at 8:30 AM on April 19, 2014

Chilton fine? Chilton fine!!! Oh good! Thank heavens our overlord was holding a bedside vigil and was thoughtful enough to tell us the news as soon as there was any! I adore how this show looks out for us all.
posted by tel3path at 8:30 AM on April 19, 2014

My impression is that Jack is much less suspicious of Hannibal than he's been lately but at the same time is willing to cut Will quite a bit of slack. Some of the looks he gave Will (eg: at dinner with Hannibal) were of a very "don't push it" vibe... But I think he more or less knew what he was saying when he said "you hook him, I'll land him." I'm not sure he thinks it'll lead to Hannibal exactly, but that Will will ferret out whoever it really is one way or another? Not 100% about that. Just a general feeling.
posted by sparkletone at 9:02 AM on April 19, 2014

So I'm watching Manhunter right now. Mostly I really like it, overblown 80s hyper-stylization and all. However, oddly, I don't buy the performance of the guy playing Will at all. He's very ... flat isn't the right word... He plays off other actors fine, but then when he's analyzing crime scenes he has this overblown, Heston-Planet-of-the-Apes-you-maniacs thing in the way he constantly yells about, "YOU SICK SON OF A BITCH."

I'm just past the death of Lounds, and man, the staging of the wheel chair gag was funny in exactly the kind of sick way that Fuller likes to make certain portions of this show.
posted by sparkletone at 9:13 AM on April 19, 2014

He also says Daddy-o a few times and it's unnerving
posted by The Whelk at 9:44 AM on April 19, 2014

He just figured out the film processing connection and it's the only time his deductive monologuing has worked for me at aaaaalllllllll. Him and Crawford yelling at each other in the same scene and the framing of the SUPER 80s room and the Hancock(?) building out the window were both nice bits of work.

...

IN-A-GADDA-VIDA? REALLY, MOVIE?
posted by sparkletone at 9:50 AM on April 19, 2014

Interesting that this version excised the painting eating. That bit of the book is one of the most bizarre/purple touches but I also found it to be one of the most powerful (even in the mediocre Ratner movie).
posted by sparkletone at 9:52 AM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Possibly interesting (spoilery for "Hannibal" the book) information from Cleolinda on the context of the chrysalis line at the end. I'd forgotten that was a nod to...well, that.
posted by Stacey at 9:59 AM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's interesting. I like it much better in this context for various reasons. that metaphor is too good to waste on Clarice brainwashing dreck.
posted by sparkletone at 10:02 AM on April 19, 2014

So Manhunter is overall pretty good if you have a tolerance for a certain kind of overblown 80s stylization. I like it more than the other Red Dragon adaptation by a lot, even though it sanded off so many if the bizarre touches that make the book so indelible.
posted by sparkletone at 10:05 AM on April 19, 2014

It's another reminder that Will is in a Christlike position.

While I was watching this episode, thinking about the hunting/fishing contrast, and, if Hannibal is associated with Herne the Hunter, which highly symbolic person would be known as the Fisher. And, well, yes. I'm a bit slow.
posted by Grangousier at 10:12 AM on April 19, 2014

Jack knows and is utterly completely on Team Will. He's letting Will be the juicy live bait. I've been saying it since last week, and I'm sticking by it! How ELSE can you interpret that ice fishing conversation? They even went way the hell out to the middle of a lake to talk about it, like secret agents worried about the walls having ears.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:20 AM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

Remember- last week, Jack sent FBI agents to bring in Chilton AND Hannibal. He knows for a fact that there is evidence pointing to both of them. He knows, because Will told him so, that Miriam was deliberately let go- and then she said it wasn't Hannibal, which Jack said was not enough to convince him.

Basically, I think he is open to the possibility that it's Hannibal or Chilton, but is leaning Hannibal. But, since this show does ostensibly take place in the real world, he has to PROVE it. Or, well, wait and let Will prove it. And in the mean time, of course he needs to act as if he doesn't think it's Hannibal, because otherwise he's in danger.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on April 19, 2014

I also feel like Jack must know, but is relying on Will to bring him the hard evidence because he doesn't have enough proof. Jack uses people in ways that he can believe are righteous, even if the people he uses suffer greatly.

Someone on Tumblr was doing Hannibal Tarot cards, and I was trying to place Jack. He should be Justice, but I don't think he is. He might be the Hierophant, but in a more...hrm...Aztec manner - he sacrifices others for the good of his wider flock. It puts him in contrast to Will (the Fisher of Men, hah), who is sacrificing himself for that greater good.

I really do hope this show gets to Clarice and hope that her character doesn't get supplanted out of the Hannibal mythos. Right now all we're seeing are echos and indirect references to her, but I want her to be visible.
posted by PussKillian at 12:24 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Someone on Tumblr was doing Hannibal Tarot cards, and I was trying to place Jack.

He is the Emperor.
posted by localroger at 12:32 PM on April 19, 2014

Glancing at other comment sections, how do we feel about a theory that Jack is playing along too? I'm not sure I buy it given his reaction to Chilton being crammed unless he's engaged in some deep cover shit.

That and I have a lot invested in Jack being dumb and oblivious.

I think Jack is playing both sides of the fence. In terms of his state of mind, I think his apology to Will for thinking he was crazy was real, I think he was being candid when he and Will were talking openly about Hannibal imprisoning Mariam at the old farmhouse (Will called Hannibal by name and Jack seemed to take his guilt as a given), I think he was being truthful when he said that Mariam saying it wasn't Hannibal wasn't enough for him, I think that when Chilton came to him for help, he was especially frank -- in that circumstance he not only didn't deny it was Hannibal, he literally asked what Chilton could do for him. So I think that Jack *can* believe Hannibal's the Ripper, certainly. He also sees the evidence -- he knew Hannibal's fingerprint was at Chilton's house, he knows that Beverly was working with Will while Will was saying Hannibal was the Ripper and now Beverly is dead (and her blood turned up with the rest of the Ripper's nasty trophies at the abandoned farmhouse), etc. So I think he knows there is quite of evidence to back up the belief that it's Hannibal, it's not something anyone has to take on faith at this point. I think that he must *know* that it's Hannibal by now, but he doesn't know if Will's going to be successful at catching Hannibal, and on the one hand he wants all the glory of "reeling in" the Ripper, but on the other, he doesn't want to stick his neck out and then end up going down with Will, either.

What happened with Chilton specifically, I think, was that Will wanted Chilton in custody because he thought he'd be safer there (and Will had previously been trying to align their stories, so I think he was trying to use Chilton as a witness over the long-term. Which was probably smart because Chilton's weird self documents/records everything). So when Chilton showed up at Will's, Will called Jack to come take him into custody. Since Chilton had *just* talked to Jack about Hannibal being a threat to Chilton, and being the Ripper, and his story lined up with the previous evidence and with Will's story, I don't see how any of that could have gone over Jack's head. For all I know, Will even spelled it out to him on the phone (*shrug*). Jack is a glory-hog, though, so instead of doing things by the book and just arriving with a bunch of FBI, he went in with his guns blazing and started chasing Chilton down while shooting wildly, and doing all kinds of over-the-top stuff. (That's his way of "reeling someone in" I think). Jack seemed to finally realize how ridiculous that was when Chilton fell, and gave himself up, and he and Jack shared a look, like OOOOOOH SHIT. If Jack was even *sort of* on the fence beforehand, I actually think that he realized something was heavily screwed up once things went down with Chilton. Also, it's just too dumb that two days after one Ripper patsy goes free, another Ripper patsy shows up luridly painted in blood and guts -- that *any of these characters* wouldn't be cautious about railroading someone for the same crimes they only just railroaded an innocent man for is mind-blowing to me. "Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you."

Anyway, so on the one hand, I think that Jack's actually, for real, trying to follow Will's lead and letting him make his run against Hannibal, because he does know that Hannibal is the Ripper (and he also doesn't want to be on Will's bad side if he comes out on top), but on the other hand, I think he's not going to risk himself or his position *at all* and if that means that Will goes down and Hannibal goes free, oh well. He's trying to practice arbitrage betting, I think.
posted by rue72 at 12:53 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

Someone on Tumblr was doing Hannibal Tarot cards, and I was trying to place Jack.

He is the Emperor.

Yeah, I can see that. But now I'm all invested in my "sacrifices others vs sacrificing himself" bit and I don't know if that changes things. Emperor probably still works since he's also kind of a war leader.
posted by PussKillian at 1:07 PM on April 19, 2014

I'm all invested in my "sacrifices others vs sacrificing himself" bit

Yeah, well, the mapping between Hannibalspace and the Major Arcana is far from 1:1. Jack is the principal source of authority in the immediate narrative. His boss, Kade Purnell (who was anagram-Starbucked from the loathesome Krendler in SOTL and Hannibal), is probably a good fit for the Hierophant. The religious angle isn't quite right but she does enforce conformity and tradition.

Hannibal is obviously Death (and in the the sense of being a powerful agent of change, which is not always a bad thing). Yeah it's tempting to hang the Devil on him but that's more about sexuality and bondage; I'd make Mason Verger the Devil and Margot the Moon.

Will doesn't really fit the Magician too well but where else do you put him? It is his singular skill that drives the narrative, which is what the Magician does.

I see Bedelia as Strength, Beverly as a poorly fitted Star. Miriam could be either the Fool, the Hermit, or the Hanged Woman depending on how her story develops. (Gideon could also be the Fool, and Chilton the Hermit.) Alana is the High Priestess.

Anyway, we simply don't have enough characters to complete a deck, and if we did this is about the point I'd be trying way too hard to find associations.
posted by localroger at 2:08 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

random observation:

In "Sorbet," I noted that Hannibal's last lines were said in time with the chamber music, so it was:
"Ladies and gentlemen, before we begin"
DOO
"I'm afraid I must warn you"
DOOOO
"Nothing here"
DOOOOO
"Is vegetarian"
DUUUM

It was like Hannibal rapping to the beat laid down by Bach, or something.
posted by angrycat at 2:16 PM on April 19, 2014

In fancy news, let's just call this "Cilton on the run in Brazil"
posted by The Whelk at 2:25 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

rue72 has it. Jack at least semi-believes Will and sometimes more, but he isn't on Will's side. Jack is on Jack's side.

Let's count the number of times (that we've seen) Jack has sent agents to do risky work without taking formal and/or minimally ethical responsibility for them:

1. Miriam Lass, a trainee sent to look for the Ripper on the down-low. Result: presumed dead.
2. Will Graham, sent into the field against his own protests, against expert advice, and also (as shown in Trou Normand) displaying increasingly serious neurological symptoms which Jack pretended not to notice.
3. Beverly Katz, sent to investigate the Ripper on the down-low. Result: sliced thinly.
4. Miriam Lass, who despite her own laughable faith that Jack would never have stopped looking for her, turns out not to have been dead but to have been held prisoner and mentally and physically tortured as well as mutilated by the Ripper for two years while Jack sat around with his thumb up his ass. Without taking into account her severely traumatised state, Jack immediately sets Miriam back on the Ripper case, subjects her to a potentially harrowing meeting with the/a major Ripper suspect, and generally keeps up the relentless pressure. Result: Miriam fires a shot through the one-way glass. Even if you think Hannibal trained her to do that, and I think he did, Jack placed her under ideal conditions to totally lose her shit. Result: Miriam now saddled with legal responsibility for attempted killing, with God knows what combination of legal and psychiatric consequences added to her already-long list; Chilton severely injured.
5. Will Graham AGAIN. FUCKING AGAIN.

Once might be an accident, twice sounds like carelessness, FIVE FUCKING TIMES sounds like JACK IS A BAD PERSON.

FUCK YOU JACK YOU GET NO MORE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT FROM ME.

p.s. Jack? Fuck you.

p.p.s. And by the way Jack, FUUUUUUUCCCCCKKKK YOOOOOUUUUUUUUU.

fuck you, Jack.
posted by tel3path at 2:34 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, when you live in a world where there are multiple art murderers at work in one metropolitan area alone, each of them actively killing people by the bushel, and your job is to catch them, it can mess with your sense of workplace ethics.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:46 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

Except that the bulk of those art murders seem to be attributable to one person!

I am referring, of course, to Jessica Fletcher, the most prolific serial killer of our age. Obviously Fuller was kidding when he pretended he cast Gillian Anderson because he couldn't get Angela Lansbury.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

I see someone asked the hapless guy this week why he didn't resent the horse that kicked him in the head? And he said it wasn't her fault, she was just trying to protect herself.

I wonder if we're soon going to get information that shows that Alana was trying to protect herself from more than just having to think too much or feel bad or whatever? Like there's some big explanatory backstory lurking there too?

Anyway, when Hannibal was talking about the honour due to a sacrificial animal, I felt pretty sure he was thinking of Alana. And combining that with NBC's mention that the series is gonna make Rains of Castamere look tame - I haven't seen it but I gather it contains the infamous Red Wedding scene - I am surer than ever that Hannibal intends to get Will to sacrifice Alana to seal the twu wuv 5eva that is Hannigram. He even explains to Alana this week "oh no, Will's attempt to whack me was all about saving YOUR life." Then he immediately re-shags her to keep her distracted. On current evidence, Alana's efforts to protect herself are likely to be ineffective.
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on April 19, 2014

Let's see... mushroom guy, jenga tower of bodies guy, giant eyeball of bodies guy, all brainwashed by Jessica Fletcher who, in a past identity, brainwashed her own son into being a political assassin! It all fits!
posted by lovecrafty at 2:59 PM on April 19, 2014

Did I solved it? I did.
posted by tel3path at 3:00 PM on April 19, 2014

Interestingly, someone brought up how the Hannibal/Alana scenes are, on the surface sex scenes, but cold and unromantic, beautifully shot but antiseptic, after wards they don't look into each others eyes or talk about each other, they talk about funerals and THIER best friend, "we ended up here so we didn't have to follow that line of conversation.." Sex without intimacy, the forceful declaring that it is IS a relationship when it's more of a coping mechanism. They don't seem to be dating, they seem like friend with occasionally, super convient for alibi benefits.

Will and Hanmibal though? They are dating, hell they are courting, and Will is on the aggressive pursuit, all they can do is talk about each other, and despite being bundled in layers and caked in blood and barn dirt, they're pretty naked and exposed and keep having those really intense staring contests. Intimacy without sex, and while Lana's relationship with Hannibal is source of comfort and stability despite for her Will's relationship with Hannibal first drove him mad and is now threatening to turn himself into a monster cause he's got to sit there and take a fun road trip with the country's most infamous serial killer and the guy who tried on multiple occasions to kill him and his friends.

And he's got to do it while said mass murderer keeps making moony eyes at him.
posted by The Whelk at 3:05 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

One thing about this show, it does effectively illustrate how people like Hannibal actually operate. We've got the team divided against each other now and working in secret against one another.

I do think Zeller did us proud this week. On the one hand we have Hannibal (the fucking wrongdoer) proclaiming that it's time to forgive and forget and put this all behind us! Not the part where Hannibal does wrong, of course! The part where he gets held to account for it! Yes indeed, we shall say no more about it.

And then we have Zeller saying how he had been wrong in his thinking, and how he fully understood the ramifications of that wrong, and how he was trying to change for the better and was sorry for how he'd treated Will. He could have taken the easy out Will offered him by saying the evidence was against him, but no, Zeller says Beverly stayed curious and kept pushing and he should have too; and most importantly, that if Beverly had felt she could talk to the science bros about it, she might still be here. This is absolutely 100% on point. People like Hannibal drive wedges between group members, but here, from the very foundations of knowledge in this show, someone is trying to build bridges. (Yes, it's late and I am mixing metaphors in midstream tonight.)

I have disapproved of Zeller's actions and attitude so many times and yet I always had a strong feeling he would come through in this way, and he has. Let's hope it turns out to mean something considering the corrupt system he is working within. Testing a bajillion cherry blossom petals and finding Hannibal's fingerprint! And having Jack immediately conclude that that means Hannibal didn't do it! Gnaaaaa!
posted by tel3path at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah, it's nice that Hannibal insists on taking their relationship slow though. He doesn't want Will to be a complete teenage boy about it! Oh no, Hannibal is part of the Slow Food and Slow Relationships movement.

Should I even mention that the choice in question was whether to fire or not to fire a phallic symbol, NOPE, I am not even gonna mention that. I totally never said anything.
posted by tel3path at 3:15 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'll say it.

Will don't shoot your murder wad on this loser, it won't feel as good and you won't bond to me as much. No no no baby, adults take it slow. Long game. Shhhhh let me touch your face again.
posted by The Whelk at 3:17 PM on April 19, 2014 [4 favorites]

You know they didn't snog onscreen, but right after that hard cut to black they suctioned onto each other's faces like sink plungers.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on April 19, 2014

Will don't shoot your murder wad on this loser, it won't feel as good and you won't bond to me as much. No no no baby, adults take it slow. Long game. Shhhhh let me touch your face again.

Will is a Guilt Trip Master. Who else would actually be able to wring guilt and pity from a serial murderer who literally eats people for breakfast? *hat tip

Hannibal just wants to wait because he wants the first time to be PERFECT. Don't worry, Prom Night is coming. Hannibal's probably already marked it on his calendar with a big heart and/or a lipstick kiss.

And ugh, the face touching. Forget the social worker behaving "like a psychopath" by jerking away from Alana's hands, Will was behaving like psychopath by *not* jerking away from Hannibal right then.
posted by rue72 at 3:30 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

The reason we have parallels in each epiode is not that the parallel cases come up by chance at the exact moment they're needed, but because the characters are filtering the cases through their own preoccupations.

This case seems so heavy handed because when you are in love, as hannibal is, everything is about your love in big pink capital letters with hearts on. When you are traumatized, as Will is, everything is about your trauma in a miasmic mist of nothing but trauma and rumination. It's dialled up to 11 for them out there because it's dialled up to 11 for them in here.
posted by tel3path at 4:26 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

And you know the chrysalis speech, he really did speak in the voice of a man madly in love, and not just in love in a hannibaly, microexpressive way.
posted by tel3path at 4:28 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

OOH and jack sending a traumatized agent into the field again which nearly makes him kill. Fuckng jack. And sending him on hannibal's advice too. Worst psychiatrist ever, HANNIBAL YOU ARE A BAD PSYCHIATRIST AND NOT A GOOD ONE. WILL IS NOT UNDER THE CARE OF A GOOD PSYCHIATRIST.

Also note that Will says you don't deserve to have killed him, ie you don't deserve such a dreadful fate. When hannibal says take it slow, bby, he means you don't deserve to have killed him because you haven't earned it yet. Every recognizably human value becomes its own perverse mirror image in hannibal. Fuck you twice hannibal, i hope you get your heart broken and spend a good couple of years on ragged sobbing with pink cutout hearts of Will on the walls of your cell.

One thing about this show, it makes clear just how much hannibal is going to Haaaaaaaaaate being in jail. And we thought he was on top of things all this time.
posted by tel3path at 4:36 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

One thing about this show, it makes clear just how much hannibal is going to Haaaaaaaaaate being in jail.

Oh my god I cannot wait. It's making me giddy just thinking about it!
posted by lovecrafty at 4:41 PM on April 19, 2014

I have no idea who Margot is, having only seen SotL and read Red Dragon, but I liked her. I do vaguely recall something having to do with pigs... is that her?
posted by Justinian at 4:47 PM on April 19, 2014

That's her brother.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:48 PM on April 19, 2014

In the book Margot is a bodybuilder and her obsession with strength is a very important motivation. I don't see the series doing that but they may ... compensate with something else.
posted by localroger at 4:51 PM on April 19, 2014

I'm really interested to see what they do with her brother's character, because apparently in the books he's a pedophile, and Bryan Fuller has said multiple times that he wants to avoid depictions of rape or even rapists in general on the show.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:59 PM on April 19, 2014

clear just how much hannibal is going to Haaaaaaaaaate being in jail.

I wouldn't get too giddy about this. It's not clear how much of Hannibal Rising is to be taken to heart for the series, but there were references even in SOTL that Hannibal had pulled himself up by the bootstraps from a situation of privation. Hannibal can always entertain himself with his Memory Palace and wait for exploitable situations to develop. Remember that he managed to cause an impressive amount of damage from his high-security cell, which was the reason for the mask and hand truck prisoner transportation rig (which was in turn inexplicable when applied to Will in the series).

It is also said quite explicitly in Hannibal that he anticipated the possibility of ending up in jail over his hobbies, a risk he considered acceptable and for which he prepared in various ways. The most annoying thing to him was Chilton's ham-handed attempts to fumble about with his mind, which he of course parried easily but which were still annoying because of Chilton's power in the situation.
posted by localroger at 5:00 PM on April 19, 2014

Ehhhh, true. BUT. He'll have to wear that ugly jumpsuit and eat that crappy non-people-filled food!

Still giddy.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:06 PM on April 19, 2014

He'll have to wear that ugly jumpsuit and eat that crappy non-people-filled food!

I share in what would undoubtably be Hannibal's bemusement that you think this would be so terrible for him.

At the moment Hannibal is indulging his tastes to the max because he can, but that doesn't mean he will be miserable if he is suddenly deprived of the opportunity to keep doing so. Hannibal would be the first to tell you that pleasure is a relative thing, and that a prisoner in solitary confinement can derive hours of amusement from the antics of an ant or cockroach.

In prison, Hannibal will be looking for opportunities to exceed the baseline of prison experience. In the books he does so several times quite spectacularly. And he would probably tell you that such opportunities in the wasteland of prison life are more vibrant and meaningful than even Kobe beef against the baseline of a wealthy and indulgent existence.
posted by localroger at 5:16 PM on April 19, 2014

Geeze, am I alone in feeling that this most recent episode was terrible? Putting aside the growing ridiculousness of Hannibal's art projects that are really almost mocking the viewer's suspension of disbelief (the last few murders of excessive complexity; come on, how did he move hundreds of pounds of frozen tissue and glass? without being noticed? tree man? etc.) the sheer number of artistic serial murderers that are appearing on the show is bordering on ridiculous.

This more recent one may be a shoutout to the book but it's basically filler. Start episode: new and way overly involved serial killer; end episode: catch said killer. The fire/angels guy, etc. It's lazy filler to try and space out the actual plot that viewers are interested in.
posted by rr at 5:19 PM on April 19, 2014

Say, how the hell is Hannibal going to wind up successfully pleading insanity? He doesn't seem particularly insane, and Will (who WAS insane) was facing possible execution for a tiny fraction of Hannibal's murders.

I guess he CAN probably afford a damn good lawyer, though.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:19 PM on April 19, 2014

Geeze, am I alone in feeling that this most recent episode was terrible?

I sort of agree. I didn't love the case of the week, and I thought the pacing was weird (like cramming in Margot's introduction). Especially in comparison to last week, which was amazing and also a very cohesive story, I felt like this one was a bit of a step down. I also felt like the sheer volume of "I'm talking about one thing but I'm REALLY talking about a different thing" was excessive.

But I don't mind all the art murders because this show seems to take place in a heightened reality where that sort of thing just happens a lot. And, more importantly for me, that last scene between Will and Hannibal was just THE GREATEST.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:24 PM on April 19, 2014

I share in what would undoubtably be Hannibal's bemusement that you think this would be so terrible for him.

Sure. And I know he'll eventually escape and all that. But that doesn't diminish my anticipatory pleasure in seeing him finally caught, exposed, and stripped of his current trappings of comfort.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:28 PM on April 19, 2014

Sure. And I know he'll eventually escape and all that. But that doesn't diminish my anticipatory pleasure in seeing him finally caught, exposed, and stripped of his current trappings of comfort.

Agreed. I will love seeing his world get smaller and smaller and smaller, to see his place in the real world evaporate until his domain shrinks to the confines of his pathetic little cell. That he'll try to spin his imprisonment in some way to keep convincing himself that he's a "god" or powerful in any meaningful sense, even as he sits rotting alone in his cage, will only make that sweeter. I want him stripped of his status, I want people to say, "aww, he thinks he's people." It's OK if that's not forever, I'll just be happy knowing it can happen to him (and knowing that he knows it, too).
posted by rue72 at 5:55 PM on April 19, 2014

(like cramming in Margot's introduction)

I agree that that was a little lumpy/awkward, but am willing to go with it for now as ground work for whatever the hell's about to happen with Mason and stuff.

But I don't mind all the art murders because this show seems to take place in a heightened reality where that sort of thing just happens a lot.

Yeah. I mean. I get that this could be a barrier to entry for getting into the show in the first place but I don't understand complaining about it at this point. You're willing to go with Lance Henriksen (a man in his 70s) building a big-ass corpse totem, but Tree Man is a bridge too far? That I don't get.

The show trades the stricter realism you find on most police procedural away for a kind of emotional logic. I can't think of any faster way to ruin the show than for them to start getting bogged down in crossing every t and dotting every i when it comes to telling us how the Murder Magic™ happens.
posted by sparkletone at 5:56 PM on April 19, 2014 [4 favorites]

That he'll try to spin his imprisonment in some way to keep convincing himself that he's a "god" or powerful in any meaningful sense, even as he sits rotting alone in his cage, will only make that sweeter.

I want to see the disdainful look on the smug fucker's face the first time he's put in one of those therapy cages SO BADLY.
posted by sparkletone at 5:57 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

Thinking more about Hannibal in prison: I could see the relationship between Hannibal and whoever the show makes into the Barney character being really incredibly funny.
posted by sparkletone at 5:59 PM on April 19, 2014

Corpse totem: no, not really. That was when I first noticed it. It was ridiculous as well.

C'mon - a bird alive in a corpse in a corpse? There's suspension of disbelief and there's lazy ass writing.
posted by rr at 6:07 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

So on the re-watch I noticed how much Will was choking on the words like "now that I find you interesting" like it was taking a lot of effort to keep up that William Lecter facade.
posted by The Whelk at 7:07 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

or that contrasted his naturalism and nearness when talking to Peter, his twin, "do you have a shadow?" An actual connection vs. a fake, planned one.
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on April 19, 2014

to see his place in the real world evaporate until his domain shrinks to the confines of his pathetic little cell

Except that it doesn't. He has pen pals. It's a big theme in Red Dragon.
posted by localroger at 7:22 PM on April 19, 2014

Had ourselves a little ratings bump this week.
posted by sparkletone at 7:24 PM on April 19, 2014

Except that it doesn't. He has pen pals. It's a big theme in Red Dragon.

The implication I always took from the way his correspondence is described is that he's considered kind of a freak. People writing to him just so they can use his name in scholarly papers for a little jolt of attentions and what not.

I'd consider that a massive reduction in both status and the breadth of his world. No more Fancy Cannibal house, just a little cell. No more being a highly-regarded psychologist who has high class friends and throws fancy parties, just shitty BSHCI food and letters from people who want to exploit your infamy (and the occasional psycho admirer).
posted by sparkletone at 7:33 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yep a ratings bump from really terrible to still really terrible but less really terrible! On the other hand it got renewed last season with essentially the same ratings in a better timeslot so perhaps really terrible but less really terrible will be enough in the friday death slot.
posted by Justinian at 7:37 PM on April 19, 2014

Yep a ratings bump from really terrible to still really terrible but less really terrible!

Hey, an upward tick is still better than the other two options! It would be nice if the show can top its previous overall record which it hit on episode 5. Perhaps for the finale?
posted by sparkletone at 7:44 PM on April 19, 2014

Janice Poon's post for 2x08.
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on April 19, 2014

Goddammit, tumblr.
posted by sparkletone at 8:45 PM on April 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

Janice Poon's post for 2x08.

Wow, I did not realize that those fish were like... barfing up their own tails
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

it's a trout eat trout world
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on April 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

So on the re-watch I noticed how much Will was choking on the words like "now that I find you interesting" like it was taking a lot of effort to keep up that William Lecter facade.

What parts are facade and what parts aren't, do you think?

I thought that the beginning of the episode through the therapy session was pure facade. That's when Will was so prickly, aggressive, emotional, reminding Hannibal of their greatest hits, creating a little cocoon of pseudo-intimacy (saying he doesn't have to pretend, he couldn't talk to just any therapist, etc). Then when Will went back to interview Peter on his own and when everyone was watching Alana interview the social worker, I felt like the facade was starting to crack and Will was getting lost in his own head. That's when he started saying things that were pretty transparently about himself: [to Peter] "You have a shadow? Someone only you can see? Someone you considered a friend...who made you feel less alone...until you saw what he really is."

The latter part of the episode, at the dead!horse farm, I think Will was spent and wasn't bothering with a facade anymore -- though I think that finding out Peter hadn't killed anyone gave him enough of a boost to go after the social worker himself. That could plausibly have been a manipulation, in that Will might have thought that attacking-Hannibal-by-proxy worked so well as a love letter, attacking-Hannibal's-proxy/parallel offered a good opportunity to kick Hannigram up a notch (and it worked, too).

Sometime during that confrontation between Will and the social worker, though, (when Hannibal started talking?) Will froze. I don't know what happened there? Even when Hannibal was talking about whispering through the chrysalis, Will looked lost. At the last second before things cut to black, he finally looked in Hannibal's eyes (siiiiigh) but -- what was that? A genuine connection, I guess? Hannibal is ready to shout his love from the rooftops, I get what's going on with him. But what was going on with Will right then?

Remember when Jack found Will just standing in his cell at BSHCI staring into space, and Will was imagining that he'd "gone fishing"? I feel like maybe he went off on a little fantasy in his mind right then when he had the gun on the social worker, too. It would be a nice bookend for the episode, actually, because that ice fishing trip with Jack in the beginning also seemed reminiscent of the fly fishing trips he was "going on" alone or with Abigail while he was incarcerated. I think that some of this revenge plot against Hannibal is a form of escapism for Will anyway. He's obsessing over a version of life where Hannibal is controllable, he's the predator and Hannibal is the prey, he knows what he's doing and the rest of the landscape is tranquil, he's got Jack or Abigail by his side and they're listening closely to him and following his directions, etc.

Also, along the same lines of thought as revenge-as-escapism, when he heard that Mariam had shot Chilton, didn't he say something like, she had to shoot "the Ripper" to start a new life for herself, didn't he frame it as a kind of rebirth for her? This whole episode was about terrible "births." I have a feeling that Mariam was also "reborn" into incarceration, but I guess we'll see.
posted by rue72 at 11:59 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think Hannibal has had an assistant so far in the form of Miriam Lass. That's how I think he does some of this stuff.
posted by tel3path at 1:34 AM on April 20, 2014

C'mon - a bird alive in a corpse in a corpse? There's suspension of disbelief and there's lazy ass writing.

But it isn't lazy-ass, that was a deliberately considered moment - where Fuller decided against making the bird dead and then alive again. He was treading a line and didn't cross it.

Oh, sure, you can complain about the unreality of a bird inside a woman inside a horse... but then, maybe you might consider you're watching the wrong show? Or you're watching the right show wrongly?
posted by crossoverman at 1:52 AM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

Anyway, without going into the unimportant details, this show has made me uncomfortable about life in a good way and I made a couple of deliberate choices this Easter under the show's influence.

I feel like I was richly rewarded by this week's episode. Most religious show on TV! If it's actually banned in Utah, that's hilarious.
posted by tel3path at 3:45 AM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

Haha sparkletone, that made me think. Maybe Hannibal is the horse, which would make him the sacrificial animal (perhaps unbeknownst to himself), inside him is a dead woman (possibly representing his late sister) and out of the dead woman flies a live starling.

I get the feeling Hannibal thinks someone else is the sacrificial animal (I think he has Alana in mind) but he's wrong and he's gonna get a surprise.
posted by tel3path at 3:53 AM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ah yes, and predictably, the lighting in the Sex Scene of Deathly Delusion is blue. Of course.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 AM on April 20, 2014

THANK YOU BRYAN FULLER FOR GIVING US SUCH FINE RELIGIOUS PROGRAMMING THAT ENDORSES DECENT MORAL STANDARDS
posted by tel3path at 4:12 AM on April 20, 2014 [3 favorites]

The implication I always took from the way his correspondence is described is that he's considered kind of a freak.

Of course. The difference between you and Hannibal is that you would find that humiliating, and he would find it amusing. Remember that uncaught Hannibal is not famous. He is well off but he does his true work in anonymity, and as with some other RL serial killers I'm sure he considers jail a not totally unacceptable tradeoff for the ability to finally sign his work.

I want to see the disdainful look on the smug fucker's face the first time he's put in one of those therapy cages SO BADLY.

You will be quite disappointed then. Remember that in one book and two movies when we meet Hannibal for the first time he is being subjected to ridiculously excessive and humiliating security protocols, but nevertheless his smugness and self-certainty are as solid as other characters in the story.

Or as Hannibal might put it, if I might channel my inner Thomas Harris,

Yes I am in a cage, but that is the result of a wager that I made with full understanding and I have accepted the result. Yes in this particular cage there are odd protocols and the hand truck and the mask and you think that those things will annoy me, but really a cage is a cage and what those things say is that you are afraid and right you are to be afraid of me. You did slip up that time and that nurse was delicious, and you know I won't miss your next mistake. Which you will make, because you are merely you and I am me.

As for my correspondents, yes most of them are little people fumbling to touch a bit of my glory, but isn't it amusing that when I was respectable and free only a few people knew my name, and now that I am in a cage the whole world knows me, parents whisper my name to frighten their children, grown men tremble like little girls as they regard my life's work. And in that mountain of letters, once in awhile there is one who is worthy. A Pilgrim. A Pilgrim who shares my vision and aptitude and who is not in a cage, now isn't that an amusing thing?

Dignity is not a thing you buy. It is a thing you make. If you think that dignity is a thing you buy and show off with fashionable affectations then it is a thing you will never have. If you want to know why I still smile, consider: Only one of us needs to put the other in a cage to feel safe.

posted by localroger at 6:04 AM on April 20, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well, enjoy your reward in full, localhanni.
posted by tel3path at 6:16 AM on April 20, 2014

Oh hey, let's not forget the stupid obvious bit of the symbolism.

Will starts to lose focus and get depressed when he's shown a dead horse. He's afraid that he's flogging a...
posted by tel3path at 6:18 AM on April 20, 2014

Also, dead thing giving birth to a dead thing tripped my "Weekly Vampire reference" node.

Also, AHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by The Whelk at 6:37 AM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

localroger, that's certainly a long, drawn-out story Hannibal tells himself in prison; what we are looking forward to is the initial feelings that oblige him to the effort of so elaborate a narrative. Everything else is retroactive rationalization on his part, the guy with the God complex hastily revising his scripture so that his self-perception is unfalsifiable.

In other words, you have reconstructed denial, not triumph. Remember also that Hannibal certainly reacts, and not with calm dignity or measured self-satisfaction, when Will Graham reminds him he's in that cell because he's insane. The first lie Hannibal tells is always the one he tells himself; his power is that he remains aware enough of this that he is compelled to pretend that his impulses and actions are covered by that rarefied species of lies called art.

On a wholly other note, I must admit that I feel the middle of this season is sagging. It feels as if they burned through a lot of plot early on -- the trial, Beverly's investigations on Will's behalf, Will's reaction to her death, Hannibal's decision to free Will -- and now there's a bit of stalling going on since Hannibal's big fight with Jack can't happen until episode twelve or thirteen. Part of why the last few murders haven't worked for me, starting perhaps with the deaths of the bailiff and the judge, is that they feel less like things the characters are doing for reasons than like easy ways of making parts of the plot happen; the muralist's crimes, his death at Hannibal's hands, Beverly's death, and Gideon's autocannibalism have had emotional or thematic resonance for me. most of the others feel like crude corrections, clumsy notes in the composition that happen when Fuller feels the need to shift pitch or tempo.

Based on the behind-the-scenes material, Fuller and his crew have a beginning and an end point carefully planned, but they're improvising quite a bit here in the middle. I think the seams show more for that. This may be why the show's usual surrealism-as-plot-magic seems less acceptable to some of us at this point. I don't feel that this season holds together as well overall as season 1.
posted by kewb at 7:38 AM on April 20, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well, enjoy your reward in full, localhanni.

Aw, there's no reason to be like that. *Makes pouty Will face.*

We have these stories because Thomas Harris was fascinated by the process by which an ordinary person becomes a monster, a process which sometimes begins with the influence of another monster in human form. Michael Lander (of Black Sunday), and Francis Dolarhyde are both created by being fed through meat grinders; Jame Gumb and Mason Verger are created by more subtle but very insidious influences. Then there is Hannibal, who is introduced to us in Red Dragon with hardly any backstory at all; not as an example of creation, but as a kind of perfected ideal.

My point here is that to expect Hannibal to lose his smug expression and get all boo-hoo just because he gets caught and has to wear orange coveralls in a jail cell is to completely fail to understand the character, why Harris created him, and what he is doing in the story.
posted by localroger at 7:42 AM on April 20, 2014 [2 favorites]

the magical Easter not dead bird, for me, was a nice respite from the tremendous head-fuckery of the disturbia of the Gideon enjoying his clay-cooked leg, a house of dead FBI agents, and Miriam's demeanor of 'I have been to hell and I'm mostly still there,' kerblam, Hannibal wins again.
posted by angrycat at 7:58 AM on April 20, 2014 [2 favorites]

Kewb, you could be right, but I think we need to see how the series pans out to judge its overall structure. I think that having half the series with Will in jail, the median episode being him getting out of jail and replaced with a new scapegoat while discovering his status has changed very little if at all, and deciding that he has to harrow hell (the hell being hannibal's mindscape of course) in order to bring about a reckoning, that's pretty reasonable to stretch out over a number of weeks.

It also takes that long for it to sink in that it isn't just Hannibal that Will is fighting, but the whole system, that he has to get people to want to see it, and that the science bros can bust their asses by testing a googolplex of cherry blossom petals one by one and finding hannibal lecter's fingerprint - a fingerprint captured on such an ephemeral surface that it is virtually impossible to explain by anything other than hannibal's involvement in the ripper crimes - and have it make no difference because the Law himself doesn't feel like jailing the ripper today. Having someone just bump Lecter off isn't going to change anything, because the BAU would just recruit a new Ripper and carry on as they are. We know this because that's what they did last week by railroading Chilton - who certainly deserved to be brought to justice, but not like this!
posted by tel3path at 10:47 AM on April 20, 2014 [2 favorites]

I tell ya what, localhanni, Will is gonna return in season seven and bust up Hannibal's operation good and proper.

We Fannibals firmly believe, have faith, and pray daily that there will be a seventh season and that good will triumph over evil.
posted by tel3path at 10:49 AM on April 20, 2014

You will be quite disappointed then.

I'm not so sure. Certainly the Hannibal we know in other media kind of... finds his way to expand the boundaries of his shitty situation as much as he can... But I feel like he had to work for that (at least a little). And even if he didn't, I feel like our Hannibal will have had to. Regardless of the pen pals and what not.... There's any number of indignities any version of Hannibal has to suffer, almost all of which will make it slightly more enjoyable when he finally eats Chilton.
posted by sparkletone at 12:55 PM on April 20, 2014

Have we seen or heard of TV-Hannibal feed on raw human flesh, off a living person? That certainly sounds more like books/movies wildly crazy Hannibal, not refined, meticulous, calculated Hannibal. The above quote (quite interesting, localroger!) "that nurse was delicious" sounds very, very different from TV-Hannibal.

Part of me thinks this is some of the shift we could see after Hannibal is captured and held at BSHCI; he might lose some of that poise, some of that sense of propriety.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:08 PM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

Remember also that Hannibal certainly reacts, and not with calm dignity or measured self-satisfaction, when Will Graham reminds him he's in that cell because he's insane.

Yes, and it's one of the few times we ever see him lose his cool, so it's a sore spot. But I don't think it's a sore spot with him in general; I think it's a sore spot for him when Will Graham tells him that, because even in Harris' version of Red Dragon by that point Hannibal has identified Will as one of the few people who share his aptitude, and so when Will says a thing like that -- as very much opposed to when someone like Chilton or Jack Crawford or a letter writer might say it -- it means something.
posted by localroger at 1:11 PM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

Have we seen or heard of TV-Hannibal feed on raw human flesh, off a living person?

It's not clear Hannibal had ever done that in the books either. But then, outside the prison he had access to nice things and in limited situations you make do with what you can. I'm not sure I'd classify the attack that earns him his mask as "fine dining" but more as a way of making a point about who is the master of whom.

Also, while it's not shown, it's very obvious from the scale of what Hannibal's done that he must be comfortable with the wetwork arts of butchery.
posted by localroger at 1:13 PM on April 20, 2014

He has eaten cooked human flesh off a living person. And fed it to that person. I guess raw flesh might be more depraved than that, but it seems like a technicality.

The thing about Chilton. He didn't subject Will to any unusual indignities while he was incarcerated. I realize this is to be said with a hollow laugh, but hear me out. The therapy cages are an indignity, but seemingly all prisoners are subjected to them. The panopticon is an indignity, but one that Chilton can and does use to protect his patient, rather than simply using it against him. The orderly turns out to be a serial killer, but not one that Chilton knowingly and maliciously hired. The basic indignity is that he's imprisoned in the first place, rather than that Chilton specifically maltreats him when he's in there.

Another point in Chilton's favour - he has no pretensions that he isn't of equal social standing with Will once he's exonerated. Actually, that's his biggest problem, but at least he knows it.
posted by tel3path at 1:16 PM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

I tell ya what, localhanni

*POUTY WILL FACE*

Will is gonna return in season seven and bust up Hannibal's operation good and proper.

That may in fact happen, but if it does it will be more of a Bryan Fuller thing than a Thomas Harris thing.
posted by localroger at 1:31 PM on April 20, 2014

Yeah it's no accident that the show aired on Good Friday, the day of Christ's death, not his rebirth.

Ooh, if we're going into the religious references, here's one that ties to the red/blue thing. In medieval iconography, Jesus is almost all the time (seriously, like 90% of the time if he's shown as an adult) depicted as wearing a red robe with a blue mantle over it. In both western and eastern christian traditions. With red representing the holiness and martyrdom, and blue representing the earthly skies, the human side. Though sometimes it's the reverse, and red represents the human side and blue the heavenly.

But either way, it's always red mantled in blue.

So this episode, Will was in blue, surrounded by red. A reverse. Where? In Hannibal "My actor is playing me as Lucifer" Lecter's office.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:43 PM on April 20, 2014 [5 favorites]

Thanks lovecrafty. I assume this is the kind of knowledge the Fuller squad must have too?
posted by tel3path at 1:50 PM on April 20, 2014

I assume. It's first-year Art History stuff.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:54 PM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

This Nathan Rabin "Forgotbusters" entry on the film-of-the-book Hannibal doesn't appear to have gotten a link on the Blue yet, but it seems like a useful reminder at this point in the season.
posted by kewb at 3:07 PM on April 20, 2014

Earlier today I walked into a very Hannibal-y bathroom ( the walls are wine racks)
posted by The Whelk at 3:55 PM on April 20, 2014

Yeah it's no accident that the show aired on Good Friday, the day of Christ's death, not his rebirth. If Miriam Lass is "reborn" into incarceration that isn't rebirth, it's redeath. That the victim this week was a "coffin birth" fits into that perfectly. Hannibal gets tremendous kicks from the inversion and perversion of Christian imagery. I think Will is in a deathly emotional state right now. I think he starts the episode purposefully but deteriorates very quickly.

I think that there's a strong thematic connection between Mariam Lass and the woman who was in the horse (Sarah?) in this episode. You're right, they're both "re-deaths," or at least rebirth attempts that failed. I loved the live bird beating inside Sarah's chest like a heart, though, and flying out just fine -- I felt that it represented hope. (Of course, because this show is what it is, the next time we see the bird it's in a tiny cage, but I'll take what hope I can get!).

Seeing Peter's menagerie freed and the cages hanging open and empty felt like a frightening, sad moment to me. But then I thought, why should it have been? Aren't the animals better off free? Why should the bird be caged, why should Peter be their (albeit benevolent) keeper?

Peter himself -- wouldn't he have been better off without the social worker? Wouldn't he have been better off free? I feel like the world of the show is strange because on the one hand it feels very dangerous and unstable/unpredictable but on the other hand authority and very strictly enforced norms loom so large in it -- we just spent half the season in a setting filled with various tiny cages and shackles, one of the main characters is a jailer (Hannibal) who enjoys playing judge/jury/executioner/God, even Jack is so authoritarian that Bella would apparently rather die on her own than admit she can no longer play the part he wants her to play (the desirable beauty?) and his employees would apparently rather put themselves into mortal danger (Will and Beverly, maybe even Alana in a way) than admit to him that they might need help.

Speaking of imprisonment -- it's sad to think that Will was genuinely thinking of Mariam shooting Chilton as an opportunity for her to be reborn into a new life, if she's really just trading her cell in Hannibal's murder basement for a cell in another hospital or prison. During the approximate three days she was free, she also told Will that they weren't "really free." Maybe she'd been institutionalized, in a way? She can only survive as a prisoner? Mariam shooting Chilton and maybe sending herself back to imprisonment also reminds me of Will showing up at Hannibal's door and asking to resume therapy -- maybe he can only survive as a prisoner now, too?
posted by rue72 at 7:18 PM on April 20, 2014 [1 favorite]

I ended up rewatching Silence of the Lambs this weekend, largely because I needed to hear the Katharine Hepburn thing for myself. And damn if it isn't there once you're listening for it. Good lord. I will never be able to unhear it.
posted by Stacey at 6:06 AM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

for me, the visceral horror of the last episode is how close we came to seeing Hannibal's o-face.
posted by angrycat at 7:14 AM on April 21, 2014

I think the revolver is supposed to evoke Russian roulette, whether or not there was a bullet in every chamber.
posted by tel3path at 8:17 AM on April 21, 2014

Finally got to see the episode (was out of town for the weekend with no reliable wireless service) and one thing popped out:

During the Alannaibal post- seckin' chitchat when the murder wizard tells Alana that Will was trying to protect her by having him killed, I got the strong sense that Hanni was trying to up the emotional stakes by giving Alana unspoken permission to feed the torch she's still carries for Will. To what end, though? To give Will that extra thrust of hate-fueled energy when something terrible eventually happens to Alana? To see what happens between the two of them when they both finally realize the extent Hannibal went to in order to successfully destroy any chance they had of being happy together?

I get the feeling that with all the harm visited upon their emotional bond it cannot survive all that is happened. Furthermore, stoking the feelings between them only serves to increase the agony they will experience when they realize that there is nothing left to salvage despite all that they still feel for each other.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:48 AM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think that when nbchannibal posted a reference to "rains of castamere" they were talking about the red wedding scene. I have not seen it but i gather it's about the emilia clarke character having to bite into a human heart or something to seal her allegiance to a new tribe?

Well, i think hannibal is going to pit alana and will against each other in a similar way to test will's loyalty and probably try to make him do something equivalently gruesome.

I also think it's one more bit of information he's adding to the pile. I don't know if he intended to leave a fingerprint on a cherry blossom petal - it may have been a mistake, like the time he stuck himself on a fishing fly - but that really is a smoking gun when you think about it. Now he's giving her information which should make her think better of Will if she listens to it but will also probably start to make her suspicious if she listens to it. Another part of his act is flaunting himself while the law-enforcers choose to see, hear, and speak no evil.

But the foreshadowing may have been more to the audience than to her.

I have to say I think alana was right about being incompatible with Will. I don't think the damage to their relationship is all Hannibal's doing. I think alana has always had an ableist and paternalistic view of Will such that an equal relationship with him was never a possibility, and now under pressure she's simply making that plain.
posted by tel3path at 11:32 AM on April 21, 2014

Oh and also, the more alana carries a torch for will, the more she'll talk about him in the sack. On current evidence, mention of Will works faster on hanni than viagra. He's not getting any younger you know
posted by tel3path at 11:33 AM on April 21, 2014

No tel3path, the GOT RoC red wedding is a Season 3 massacre which contributes heavily to the GoT series death toll. You're thinking of the Season 1 wedding between Emilia Clarke's Daenerys Targaryen and Khal Drogo, at which she was required to eat the heart of a horse to prove her suitability to be khaleesi.
posted by localroger at 12:12 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm just wondering how far they're gonna take the starling thing? Is he gonna turn will and run off to argentina with him? When bryan said season 3 was gonna be like the fugitive is that what they meant, and is miriam gonna be the one-armed man?
posted by tel3path at 12:13 PM on April 21, 2014

Geez so.. When bryan said three characters meet terrible terrible fates he didn't actually say they'd die, did he. And just because three characters meet terrible terrible fates doesn't mean more than three characters meet terrible terrible fates.

Prediction: everyone but hannibal dies? Possibly including will. Maybe will's terrible terrible fate is running off with hannibal... Maybe they're the ones responsible for all the smug facebook posts about their ickily perfect couple-life in buenos aires...

Maybe as they dash off they casually pin it all on miriam...

Then miriam's inner clarice explodes forth and dedicates everything to busting up their operation...
posted by tel3path at 12:17 PM on April 21, 2014

Wait, the heart of a horse. So maybe i was right, alana is set to be the "healthy sacrificial animal" that was played by a horse this week...
posted by tel3path at 12:19 PM on April 21, 2014

I got the strong sense that Hanni was trying to up the emotional stakes by giving Alana unspoken permission to feed the torch she's still carries for Will.

I think that Hannibal is feeding Alana's ego and sense of security by saying that he's got Will under control, Will is not a threat, Alana is so much better than Will, etc.

If you think of it from the perspective of Alana and Will being rivals for Hannibal's affections, I think it makes a lot of sense why Hannibal would get a little bit of a twisted ego boost by talking about Will to Alana all the time (especially in bed), and also why Alana would be constantly going to Hannibal for reassurance that Will is not a threat (especially in bed). Hannibal likes the idea of Alana and Will jockeying for his affections, and Alana wants to wedge herself between Hannibal and Will.

That scene when Alana drops off Will's dogs and warns that he'd better stay away from Hannibal, because Hannibal's her boyfriend now, should probably have been set to this.
posted by rue72 at 1:50 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, and that's also why I think Hannibal's going to set up a fight *between* Alana and Will, and then have Will "capture his heart" by "vanquishing" Alana.
posted by rue72 at 1:51 PM on April 21, 2014

Yeah, if someone said "rains of castamere", I would think major betrayal and lots of deaths. The horse heart eating scene was with different people and on a different continent.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:00 PM on April 21, 2014

I'd think so too except Hannibal was chopping up hearts in his kitchen and we just had a horse in the last ep so...

Very worried about what NBC said about unleashing the beast next week. Very.

I'm not optimistic that Will won't genuinely go to the dark side this season and not make it back.
posted by tel3path at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2014

Yeah, if someone said "rains of castamere", I would think major betrayal and lots of deaths. The horse heart eating scene was with different people and on a different continent.

Also, a wedding?! Or at least an engagement. *fingers crossed*
posted by rue72 at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2014

Also, people complaining about Alana's role being just to have sex this season. Really. What is Jack doing apart from looking baleful and being completely useless. He does nothing! at least Alana is doing something.
posted by tel3path at 2:04 PM on April 21, 2014

I doubt it cos people don't usually get engaged over a less than six week old relationship.
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on April 21, 2014

Unless it's a symbolic murder husband wedding. I can see the "well he's already ruined you so you have to marry him now" actually seeming persuasive in those circumstances
posted by tel3path at 2:06 PM on April 21, 2014

Antique Art Deco style engagement ring with old European cut diamond and stylish triangle motif.

JustCannibalThings.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:09 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

They've known each other for years! Or maybe it's a fake out and Hannibal is being slick by marrying Will for the spousal privilege.

Either way, I want to see that ring.

Also, who's on the menu. Will told Jack they've been eating the people they were trying to help, so I shudder to think who's going to be on that dinner table.

Antique Art Deco style engagement ring with old European cut diamond and stylish triangle motif.

PLEASE SOME KIND OF GEMSTONE. Sapphires to match Alana's eyes? And the blue = illusion idea?
posted by rue72 at 2:12 PM on April 21, 2014

You know, if Will gets to be the mastermind/betrayer at the wedding, I'm totally down for it. Frederick Chilton sends his regards.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:15 PM on April 21, 2014

But this isn't fair. I told Hannibal I wanted an entirely cake-based wedding and he promised that all this is a ruse and it's me he loves.
posted by tel3path at 2:21 PM on April 21, 2014

Okay everybody vote, who thinks we're getting dark!Will with the clarice parallel taken right to the very max! including running off together

Who thinks we're getting dark!Will with Will ruined morally at the end but without running off with Hannibal

And who thinks we're getting just-in-time good!Will punching his way out of the shadows like a crocus karate chopping it's way through concrete to celebrate spring

I'm gonna say that if they're hoping for a seven season arc they probably won't do clannibal just yet cos the whole thing is supposed to be about lonely Hanni's ongoing search for lurve

I hope the show wouldn't do the second thing to us but idk
posted by tel3path at 2:28 PM on April 21, 2014

You know what I think the one thing that would make Alana and Jack care about this is if he tried to eat them

And I think that is what Jack realizes at the end, I think they've both been invited to a dinner party and Jack realizes he's on the menu

And that thing about how Caroline will slay us in ep11, we all assume it will be with her heartbreak at the betrayal by her beloved Hanni-bear but what if she runs a stake through someone's heart cos Hannibal has totally turned her
posted by tel3path at 2:37 PM on April 21, 2014

I look away for one minute and you pelople are already planning a Fancy Cannibal Wedding. ( imagine the menu!)
posted by The Whelk at 2:48 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Or what if it's that she tries to kill someone to show Hannibal that she'd make a great murder wife and Hannibal should put will out of his mind
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on April 21, 2014

Reindeer on the menu, for def.

Orecchiette pasta. In red sauce natch
posted by tel3path at 2:50 PM on April 21, 2014

the Alana haters are weird to me. Hannibal and Alana have a flirtatious vibe from the get go. (I think their first encounter onscreen is Hannibal: do you have an appointment? Alana: Do you have a beer? Alana's eyes get big and intense when she claims Abigail Hobbs couldn't have murdered that dude last season because Hannibal was there and she had no doubts about Hannibal.
posted by angrycat at 2:51 PM on April 21, 2014 [4 favorites]

And that thing about how Caroline will slay us in ep11, we all assume it will be with her heartbreak at the betrayal by her beloved Hanni-bear but what if she runs a stake through someone's heart cos Hannibal has totally turned her

Or what if it's that she tries to kill someone to show Hannibal that she'd make a great murder wife and Hannibal should put will out of his mind

If *we* think that the show is pushing Hannigram hard right now, imagine how you'd feel if you were Hannibal's *girlfriend*! Bedelia fled the country rather than deal with that mess, ffs.

Just wait until it's supposed to be Alana's moment of triumph -- engagement celebration dinner! showing off the rock! beautiful table laid out in Hannibloom's honor! -- and she stumbles on Will and Hannibal in a situation so compromising she can't ignore it?

Since this show is violent and not all that sexual, I think any "compromising situation" is more likely to be violent than sexual. But I think the jealousy/rage/shock on Alana's part would be similar regardless. Alana really seems to want things to be picture perfect with Hannibal, so I would *guess* that she'd try to preserve it by "protecting" him (and Hannibloom) against Will.

I'm still kind of stuck on who's there for dinner, though.
posted by rue72 at 3:00 PM on April 21, 2014

Maybe Matthew Brown? Or worse, Zeller?
posted by tel3path at 3:03 PM on April 21, 2014

Maybe Matthew Brown? Or worse, Zeller?

I was thinking Zeller, because of that apology last episode. Why soften him up and show that this time he'll be willing to at least entertain what Will is saying if they're *not* going to kill him? It's like Will said before -- anybody who gets close gets got. However, something would still have to occur in front of Hannibal for him to know who Zeller's perspective has changed.

I'm also torn on the idea of him picking off Team Science altogether. On the one hand, I think that it would make sense, since the people who focus on the evidence (which are all the lower-status characters anyway) are going to be harder for him to keep under control than the characters who care primarily about their own beliefs (which are the higher-status characters, like Jack). On the other hand, those *are* lower status characters, both in terms of the audience's connection to them and in terms of their status within the show (with the other characters) so I think eating Zeller might not pack enough oomph for such a climactic meal.

Some of this is probably going to depend on whether and how Zeller is featured between then and now, I guess.
posted by rue72 at 3:10 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think both Alana and Jack have proven that they're happy to ignore evidence against Hannibal and railroad someone else, so pending further information I have no trouble thinking of them as evil characters.

Aw, come on, this is not giving them much credit. Remember, there's plenty of evidence exonerating Hannibal too, and since two people were already framed for various Ripper murders (Abel Gideon and Will), they'd be stupid NOT to consider the possibility that either Chilton or Hannibal could have framed the other. And with the evidence they found in Chilton's house, plus Miriam's testimony, it's not like it's crazy to consider Chilton a suspect...

We're only convinced it's Hannibal because we've seen him murder people. Jack and Alana haven't.

And Jack, at least, is definitely not ignoring the possibility that it's Hannibal. Rewatch that fishing scene, he is definitely talking about Hannibal, not about fish.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:17 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Don't forget he's killed Beverly and all Jack did was blub for a moment and then return to business as usual.

This is 100% in character with Jack from the novels.

If he thought Hannibal was gonna eat him he'd change his alliance pretty sharpish.

Yeah, he might I don't know get into a big knock-down drag-out fight to the death in Hannibal's kitchen? Oops.
posted by localroger at 3:20 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Recall also, the only time in this episode when Jack said "Hannibal didn't do it" was when he was in a room with Hannibal. Of COURSE he's going to pretend he doesn't suspect the devious murderer when he's standing right there. None of Jack's actions suggest he is in any way on Hannibal's side.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:20 PM on April 21, 2014 [5 favorites]

No, I strongly disagree. I cannot think of an innocent explanation for Hannibal's fingerprint appearing on a cherry blossom petal at the tree man tableau.

Investigators rarely get the luxury of being eyewitnesses to the crimes they investigate. There is enough reason now, and has been for the entire season, for Alana not to be so unquestioning in her devotion to Hannibal. I mean this in a definite hard-evidence kind of way. And Jack is supporting Will in a "not giving him any support" kinda way that has already resulted in the death and/or destruction of at least two other characters. And this is leaving aside the screaming conflict of interest of having Alana interrogate suspects on a case where she herself is dating one of the suspects. The entire way they're handling this case is inexcusably pisspoor and cannot be explained away by saying the poor dears don't know or even the poor dears have insufficient evidence. If Jack had backed up Beverly in any useful way they would have enough evidence, for example.
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, what's wrong with Jack isn't that he is failing to investigate Hannibal, but that he destroys others and treats them as fodder for his machine. I think if Will got killed and Hannibal beat the justice system yet again, Jack would possibly be fine with that.

The science bros wouldn't hav been so triumphant about the big fingerprint reveal if it were tenuous, remember.
posted by tel3path at 3:26 PM on April 21, 2014

Don't forget Jack had the food tested. Jack has a number of reasons to suspect Hannibal, even though the food test came back animal. Will has told him point blank that at least one murder had to have been by either him or Hannibal, and Jack is now pretty sure it wasn't Will. Jack may be holding open the possibility that Will is right about Hannibal being the Ripper or having something to do with him, but possibly that the cannibalism thing is over the top.

I think that Jack, like Beverly, is unwilling to move until he's sure he can make a case strong enough to justify what he knows will look like a very weird and unfounded suspicion to most of his acquaintances and colleagues. Will is trying to make that case for him but has little physical evidence to back up his model of what is going on. As we have already been forewarned, his hesitancy is going to come close to killing him if not finish him off at the end of the season.
posted by localroger at 3:28 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

But basically like I said I think Hannibal is possibly intending to serve at least one of the major characters which very possibly could be Jack himself. Don't forget he's killed Beverly and all Jack did was blub for a moment and then return to business as usual. If he thought Hannibal was gonna eat him he'd change his alliance pretty sharpish.

I actually think that Jack would take a threat to his position much more seriously and personally than a threat to his physical safety. He's the big boss, I don't think it would even occur to him that he's physically vulnerable.

Also, Jack said he wanted Will to hook Hannibal and then *he'd* reel him in. The last time he tried reeling someone in was with Chilton -- and he came alone, guns blazing, way overconfident. He's probably going to try to reel in Hannibal in the same way, and that's when the fight is going to ensue, I think.

I think that it would be very enjoyable, from Hannibal's perspective, to feed Jack to his own team, especially Will, who is meanwhile counting on Jack as his strongest ally (for what that's worth). So I think that's a possibility. But I also don't think that Hannibal would do that until he has a replacement for Jack in place, so I think it's early days for that yet *or* Hannibal is going to caught by surprise by Jack's attack and will just have to improvise.
posted by rue72 at 3:28 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

You know what the only way jack' handling of the investigation isn't inexcusably pisspoor is if he's actually investigating Alana too, and even then he sucks donkey balls through a straw considering how many people are getting seriously injured and/or mentally damaged because of Jack's utter determination to put them in harm's way.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on April 21, 2014

Hannibal planted the fingerprint, knowing all the other evidence would lead to Chilton. Will said they'd find something that leads away from Hannibal, then they find something that seems to lead to him. It undermines Will while also making it look like Chilton was trying to frame Hannibal.

Hannibal plays the long game.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:29 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

No. Jack chose to cherry-pick what he listened to of what Will said and they both suddenly decided to give credence to Gideon despite Alana having dismissed him as crazy and not worth listening to when it suited her.

This isn't Hannibal knowing exactly what Will is going to say, this is Hannibal counting on the system to support him and be on his side no matter what. Will could have said the world is made of snow and his horse has green hair and the system would have paid exactly as much attention to that as it needed to to keep Hannibal in charge.

And I think it's equally possible that Hannibal did not plant the fingerprint, but if he did it was for the glee of knowing that he could put incriminating evidence right in their faces and they would do whatever mental gymnastics they needed to to conclude that it wasn't him.

This is important because they've made someone a scapegoat for the second time. The show is portraying how a group supports evil and punishes scapegoats.
posted by tel3path at 3:36 PM on April 21, 2014

No, I strongly disagree. I cannot think of an innocent explanation for Hannibal's fingerprint appearing on a cherry blossom petal at the tree man tableau.

But you can think of an innocent explanation for Chilton's house being full of corpses! Either Chilton planted the print as evidence or Hannibal planted all the dead guys as evidence. Either way there is planted evidence SOMEWHERE, and the former seems far more likely, from the POV of someone who doesn't know the truth.

Also, note that when they found the print they specifically said "it's not a good enough match to hold up in court, but"
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:36 PM on April 21, 2014 [3 favorites]

Knowing what we--the viewers--know about Hannibal, there's no way that print got there unless he intended it to be found. He wears gloves. He has a plastic murder suit. He's never left any kind of physical evidence before. It was enough to identify him, but smudged enough to not be useable in a trial.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:43 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

I know it's for style reasons and I have no problem going with it as such, but I do wish we got to see Madds in a jaunty hair net or shower cap to keep from leaving any hair at a crime scene.
posted by sparkletone at 3:45 PM on April 21, 2014

Oh okay, you are right if it's not a good match to hold up in court, I take it back.

How you explain Chilton's house being full of corpses is the same way you explain the ear down will's throat, it was a frame job this time just like it was last time. Not to mention Chilton's physical incapacity to commit these kinds of crimes anyway and the overall farcical nature of th staging.

And the fact the print was on a cherry blossom petal by definition would make it nearly impossible to plant. That is my point.

Will said all this is theatre. They didn't listen to that part, but it is theatre and if they'd listened to any part of it other than what suited them they could have busted themselves out of the Better than Life Game.

So I take it back about the cherry blossom being enough to bring Hannibal in. What I do not take back is Jack's cowardice in sliding the costs onto his underlings while carefully keeping his own ass safe. I think Hannibal most likely trained Miriam to shoot but Jack put her under so much pressure that his relentlessness by itself would have been provocation enough.
posted by tel3path at 3:45 PM on April 21, 2014

He did stick himself with one of will's lures before, and that was not intentional. I do think Hannibal is capable of making mistakes. But I agree that it might also have been intentional.
posted by tel3path at 3:46 PM on April 21, 2014

What I do think could stir Hannibal up is of Jack went you know what? Bored now. Nice of you to return to the field after your trauma Hannibal, but we have enough shrinks and profilers and we can handle ourselves, and we know for sure you're not a suspect so bye. And thanks for all the fish. Will's taking back his old job btw, we realize now how completely credible he was. Alana's fired for wildly flaunting her unprofessionalism. See ya never. Freddie yawns in his face.

Hannibal would so totally act out for attention.
posted by tel3path at 3:53 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

He does make mistakes, but this wasn't one of them. He knew the murdershack was going to be found and gone over with a fine-toothed comb. Everything left in that place was there because Hannibal wanted it to be there, like Will said.

I doubt he'll be caught because of any physical evidence he's left behind. My guess is he'll be caught because he's underestimated Will (and Jack, because he's totally on team Will, darn it! Ice fishing secret agent meetings!).
posted by lovecrafty at 3:58 PM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't think that "lack" of physical evidence is what is holding back anyone from accusing Hannibal or taking him in. They're not even investigating him -- and they have at least enough for a warrant.

Will's lawyer said at his trial that it doesn't matter what the jury knows, it matters what they want to believe. He needed the jury to *want* Will to be innocent in order for them to give a not guilty verdict.

That's what bringing Hannibal to justice for the Ripper killings is about, too -- making people *want* Hannibal to be guilty. Will has to find a way to publicly disgrace Hannibal, and take away his status, to make *him* the scapegoat. If he's successful in doing that, everyone will be tripping over each other to lock up Hannibal and to pretend he's nothing like them, that he's obviously faulty in some way -- and it won't really matter what the evidence is. On this show, belief trumps evidence every time.
posted by rue72 at 4:40 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

and they have at least enough for a warrant.

Actually, IANAL and neither is Bryan Fuller, but I don't think they have enough for a warrant. If Jack had gotten human DNA from the dinner party food he would, but he didn't and they have nothing else except one admittedly non-court-worthy smudged fingerprint, so they don't have probable cause. I doubt they even have the "reasonable articulable suspicion" that would be needed for a Terry stop.

I don't think Jack is looking for anybody to "want" anything. He knows that IF Hannibal is the Ripper -- a thing he will admit is possible, but only possible -- THEN Hannibal must be one smooth operating motherfucker to have kept his nose clean all this time while schmoozing with his own people so closely. Jack and Will both know that if they give Hannibal the slightest warning that they are looking to nail him, if he really is what they suspect he will cover his tracks in lead-lined glass and they will be back to square one.
posted by localroger at 5:23 PM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

He did stick himself with one of will's lures before, and that was not intentional.

I'm thinking that was some heavy duty foreshadowing. Will's so gonna hook him.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:28 PM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

Actually, IANAL and neither is Bryan Fuller, but I don't think they have enough for a warrant.

I'm not a lawyer either, but Jack has the fingerprint from Chilton's house, the fingerprint from the cherry blossom, Will's testimony, Chilton's testimony, the testimony that Chilton recorded from Gideon, and the link between Beverly investigating Hannibal (on Will's behest) and her blood at the Ripper crime scene where they found Mariam. That is surely enough to get warrants for things like bank records and surveillance to track Hannibal to Minnesota and Abigail's last sighting there (by Will) -- which would also bolster Will's story about the frame job seeing as him coughing up Abigail's ear and having her blood under his nails was essential to that framing. There's not a dearth of crimes to get evidence on. Anyway, my point is that they aren't even *discussing* these things, they clearly don't care about warrants or putting together a case based on physical evidence.

Hannibal is also not acting like someone who's trying to "cover his tracks in lead-lined glass," he's making things into a gigantic joke by framing the one person (Chilton) who is least physically able to commit the Ripper murders and the most heavily alibied for them (via his hospitalization and the constant surveillance and records he made at BSHCI) and even leaving a big fingerprint of his own on the scene. Hannibal is clearly messing with everyone, forcing them to *choose* not to see that he's the Ripper -- just like he forced Gideon to *choose* to eat the first bite from his own leg. This is how Hannibal works, he gives people the ability (free will) to choose so that it's all the sweeter when they choose to believe in him.
posted by rue72 at 5:33 PM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

rue72, reiterating IANAL but I've read a lot about this stuff... there's no such thing as a small probable cause for just a little investigation. You either have it or you don't, and it's a matter of convincing a judge, who in this case probably knows Hannibal and has eaten at his house.

While Team CrawGraham have enough data to send cat-ears perking toward the ceiling they do not really have enough to go to a neutral third party and plead a case for violating someone's right to privacy. Yes it's damning as hell if you already know Hannibal is sketchy but if you know him as an upright pillar of the community and Jack as a guy who goes off without authorization sometimes, Will as a guy who was just on trial for the same crimes, Chilton as a guy found with a pile of bodies in his house -- tell me again why you would set the Feds loose on a guy whose biggest obvious crime is giving fabulous dinner parties?
posted by localroger at 6:05 PM on April 21, 2014 [2 favorites]

there's no such thing as a small probable cause for just a little investigation

There very definitely *is.* In terms of "just a little investigation," every person of interest doesn't get a full-court press. In terms of "probable cause" for a warrant, there are lots of places where law enforcement gets leeway. An officer could claim that, for whatever reason, he thought someone was in imminent danger and had to rush in (they can just wait until Alana is screaming from the bedroom and claim to have thought it was a cry for help!). Or he could claim that Hannibal is under threat in some way and he has rush him into custody and go through the house to make sure that, say, yet another Crazed Admirer isn't laying in wait there for him. A "friend" could claim to find something frightening or incriminating in the house and call the police. Corners are cut in investigations all the time (that's where the "driving while black" thing comes from, for example), but the higher your status the more deference and respect you can expect from "the system" in general, including from the police or FBI or the courts, so those kinds of corners are cut less often with high status people, both within the real world and apparently in the show's world. Which is exactly my point, Hannibal is protected by *status* not by lack of "proof."

You also seem to be assuming that Hannibal's priority is to not get caught, to be safe; I disagree. If that were his priority, he could leave now for a semi-extended vacation (like Bedelia) and probably be safe forever. He could just refuse to see Will anymore and probably be safe forever. Apparently, safety isn't his priority.

He was telling Bedelia last season that he was longing for a friend, and this season he's gotten into a relationship and is having sex with Alana and is drawing as close as he can to Will -- so I think his primary desire right now is actually for increased *intimacy.* Up to now he's had some intimacy in the form of making people complicit in his crimes against them (again, hearing Gideon give "compliments to the chef," but also through his relationships with Bedelia and Abigail), and I think that complicity is a part of what he thinks of as intimacy in general, which is why he loves the idea of helping Will transform into a Murder Butterfly. Hannibal thinks of himself as an artist, too, and what's the point of creating a masterpiece that nobody understands or maybe even sees? So I'm sure that Hannibal is going to feel compelled show off his Will-the-Murderer "work" even if it destroys Will and therefore their relationship.

But another part of intimacy is also about baring oneself, and in that sense I think that he has a desire to claim his identity as the Ripper and get credit for his "art." Last season, he was certainly upset at Gideon for "stealing" the Ripper identity, and since then, both the men he's set up as patsies are people he can be sure *won't* take up that identity or take that credit. I think he is amused by how far people will go to not see what they don't want to see, and that's part of why his "frame job" this time and the Mariam "discovery" set up were so absurdly theatrical. But I think that a part of him is also frustrated, because he also doesn't *want* everyone to be blind to him anymore, to be so isolated, and finds the idea of someone actually seeing him very tempting. That's where Will comes in, I think. Up till now he's been able to deny himself intimacy and recognition in the interests of his personal safety, but I think that Will is offering him a taste of what it's like to have those things, and that's wetting his appetite for more.

I think that he's partly enjoying making fools out of people by manipulating and tempting them into complicity, I think he's partly enjoying having so much status and such a glossy "cover," but I think that he's also getting genuinely hungry for real intimacy and real recognition, and I think that Will is holding out a lovely little taste of that to him, and soon, he's going to bite.

We might just have to agree to disagree about Jack's position, because I think that Jack is very clearly in cahoots with Will and does completely believe that Hannibal is the Ripper, but he doesn't want to stick his neck out for fear of losing his position -- if Will can hook Hannibal, Jack will reel him in, but if Will can't, then oh well, at least Jack's got Chilton on ice for those crimes. Anyway, like I said, I think that Jack does try to "reel" Hannibal in, but he goes in overconfident because he's a gloryhog, tries to do it as some Badass Hero instead of bringing in the FBI and going by the book (just like he did with Chilton), and I think that's when the fight goes down and Hannibal gets the best of him. I don't know if Jack will die from that neck wound, but at best he'll have to be saved by someone else -- there's no way he could take Hannibal in, in that condition.
posted by rue72 at 8:01 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

I also think if they could get a warrant at this stage and then couldn't prove anything, they'd have a much harder time trying to get a warrant again further down the line. I think they want to get all their ducks in a row this time.
posted by crossoverman at 10:47 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

I agree but i also think they want will to get all the ducks in a row and that he's every bit ws expendable in this world as hannibal is prestigious and valuable.

Nothing has really changed about anyone's attitude to will even though most of them presently find it convenient to think him not guilty. His testimony is still considered worthless. The one person whose attitude has changed is Zeller, and he ranks low relative to Jack, alana and Hannibal, and he is also the one who gets ignored and treated rudely and unappreciatively by Jack a lot of the time. So just as beverly used to be the belwether of how credible the case against Will actually was, zeller is now performing that function, but it's already been demonstrated that evidence can have only so much impact on the narrative given that only one of the three actually powerful characters is letting himself be affected by it at all. I think rue72 has nailed it.
posted by tel3path at 10:56 PM on April 21, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh and what Chilton said about the psychopath triumvirate of charm, focus and ruthlessness?

I think Hannibal is charm, Jack is focus and Alana is ruthlessness and together they are the Psychopath Triumvirate.
posted by tel3path at 10:58 PM on April 21, 2014

Jack seems way more ruthless on any number of levels to me than Alanna...
posted by sparkletone at 12:02 AM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

They all have a mixture of some of those characteristics. I certainly think Hannibal is more focussed and ruthless than the others, but he's the only one who has charm. Jack is focussed and ruthless, but not really charming. Alana is neither charming nor focussed, but she is ruthless.
posted by tel3path at 12:07 AM on April 22, 2014

Alana is neither charming nor focused, but she is ruthless.

She's focused on Hannibal! I'm not sure that she's ruthless, though? She seems relatively ineffectual to me, and she doesn't seem all that driven in any sense. If she were ruthless, wouldn't she at least have tried to keep everyone else's hands off of Abigail when she was her patient, and tried to stake out a claim on treating Mariam, and done more to actually get inside Will's head and to chase him off Hannibal? Even her attempt to get her boyfriend to stay away from someone she ostensibly thinks wants to *murder* him is to ask Will a question about it when she drops off his dogs, and to sort of murmur about it to Hannibal as they have a post-coital cuddle. It seems like she actually has room to improve on her ruthlessness!

To me, Jack is the more ruthless one, he'll drive his employees as far into the ground as they'll let him, and his own wife will do nearly anything not to look weak in front of him.
posted by rue72 at 12:44 AM on April 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

She's ruthless in that she is prepared to sacrifice the lives and sanity of other characters in order to protect Hannibal. In that sense i agree that she is focussed, in her singlemindedness of purpose to maintain hannibal's status.
posted by tel3path at 12:49 AM on April 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

Anyway, on the theme of the Nietszchean superman, I assume that's why the Psychopath-of-the-Week is called Clark?
posted by tel3path at 8:23 AM on April 22, 2014

Re: Hannibal wanting credit, early in this season he flat-out tells Bedelia in one of their sessions that he wants to be remembered for the things he's done, and sees this as his way of dealing with the inevitability of death. Being exposed in some way at some point in time is part of his design.
posted by kewb at 9:12 AM on April 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yes- and if you think back to the beginning of his obsession with Will, it was really about the fact that Will can see and empathize with killers. Hannibal wanted to be seen by Will- also mold him, but I think that may have been a choice he made later on. In the beginning he just loved hearing his work described so "accurately", for once.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:34 AM on April 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

My ankle injury flared up this morning and despite owning a cane I am refusing to use it cause I already dress enough like Chilton and I want to keep my kidneys
posted by The Whelk at 9:54 AM on April 22, 2014 [5 favorites]

She's focused on Hannibal! I'm not sure that she's ruthless, though? She seems relatively ineffectual to me, and she doesn't seem all that driven in any sense.

But when she is focused (as in, not at all emotionally/personally invested in the person in front of her) she can be remarkably effective. She was very calculatingly pushing each and everyone of the evil social worker's buttons, expertly playing him like a piano for Jack et al. As for her being ruthless in her protection of Hannibal, it brings to mind a guy I once dated.

He was a cardio-thoracic surgical resident. He also had a massive drug problem, the full extent I didn't allow myself to acknowledge until we broke up. Seemingly, I wasn't even the person with the worst case of denial in the situation - that would be his fellow doctors. He kept getting these massive scripts written for him by his colleagues for a variety of questionable aliments. As he would relay the conversation between himself and his peers, one sentiment came up consistently - "I fully trust you to not misuse this medication because, after all, you're a doctor and you understand the risks".

This came up over and over, even in our relationship when he offered repeatedly to prescribe some seriously addictive medications for some pretty trivial medical issues- " Trust me, I'm a doctor. I know what I'm doing. I'd be the first to know if you developed a drug problem. Since your job involves monitoring other people's medicine intake, you also understand the risks and will make good choices."

I'm really not surprised at Alana's continuing support of Hannibal and I don't think that it is at all psychopathic. It's human frailty and shortsightedness. Is staggeringly common for humans to take their friends and peers at their word, even individuals whose livelihood is dependent on accurately gauging other people's innermost motivations and pathologies.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:16 AM on April 22, 2014 [5 favorites]

Bone Arena just did a great little post about the nature of the Will/Hannibal relationship.

How often do we really get to see such an intense relationship played off between two unrelated people that doesn’t have the release of sex anywhere in the cards for them? I do see them as soulmates, as if they complete each other in a way no other human being ever could, and I find it really fascinating and original to see a story explore that idea in the absence of sex and romance. Male friendships in most stories usually come up short in their depiction of the intensity and need of one for the other, unless they’re brothers. I can think of a few exceptions, but none of them quite take it to this level.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:59 AM on April 22, 2014

I'm not angry with Alana because she's being manipulated by a psychopath and may even be complicit in it to some extent. I'm angry with her because she's participating in egregious miscarriages of justice and sacrificing other people's sanity, and in some cases other people's lives, in order to maintain her preferred illusion.

I'm not saying she's in any way psychopathic, I do agree she's human and flawed, and I'm not unsympathetic or unempathetic despite how I might be coming across here. The problem is that my empathy extends not only to Alana, but also to the patients who are suffering under what she thinks is "care" and the suspects who are being railroaded under what she thinks is "interrogation" and the victims who are left vulnerable to suspects that she lets go because she thinks there's "no evidence" against them. Would I want Alana to treat me or interrogate me, if I got sick or were accused of serious crimes? I absolutely would not, I think that it would be literally horrifying to have my fate in the hands of someone like her.

I'm not willing to say "poor thing, love is blind, she has such an innocent trust in her beloved Hanni-bear and she's going to be so so so sad when she finally finds out!" because it's not only Alana who's at risk here.

Furthermore even if you accept that Alana has 100% every reason to believe in Hannibal, there's so much she does that's not good enough for someone in her position, like interrogating suspects in a case where she's dating one of the suspects, and even going so far as interrogating the suspect she's dating!!! I don't think Alana's the only one at fault there, I think Jack should have pulled her off that case and never allowed her to be the one to interrogate Hannibal. I think it's the whole system that's rotten, but Alana is part of that system and she is contributing to the problem.

Let me put it to you this way. I'm sure you feel bad enough about inadvertently supplying drugs to an addicted colleague. I am very sympathetic to you about that and I agree that that could happen to anyone.

But Alana's case is not actually quite like yours. Alana's case is more like she is trustingly supplying drugs to a colleague, in all good faith, and then a certain demographic of his patients start to turn up dead in unusual numbers and under curious circumstances, and she kept insisting on supplying him with the drugs and whenever any of her colleagues protested, she had them fired, or declared insane, or arrested for the murders. And worse than that it's as if this wasn't an ordinary workplace at all, where you could say "what the heck, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" or whatever, but was actually called the Harold Shipman Institute For The Detection Of Drug-Related Medical Malpractice.

tl;dr I do actually feel sorry for Alana, but I also feel sorry for the numerous patients and suspects she is responsible for and that she's letting down extremely badly.
posted by tel3path at 11:03 AM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

Just one small correction: I had no part of supplying drugs to my ex, as I am not a physician and he wasn't a colleague. It's just fascinating in retrospect how many of us, myself included, DID NOT WANT TO SEE what was going on because it didn't fit with what we expect of doctors and ourselves and furthermore how invested his peers were in the idea of the infallibility of doctors.

Now, if I were a psychiatrist and (a) I had a peer who had a reputation for providing therapy to people with very complex and difficult psychiatric disorders and, (b) was widely regarded in medical and social circles as a caring professional with a good track record (Hannibal is very good at wearing this particular human suit), I would want to see the unusual deaths of his patients as an unfortunate consequence of working with a patient population with complex and difficult-to-treat psychiatric disorders.

Quite frankly, psychiatrists who work with individuals who have Axis II (personality) disorders are seen as saints. Most psychiatrists will not work with clients who have histrionic, narcissistic, borderline and anti-social personality disorders - they consider it too taxing to their own mental and emotional well-being. So yeah, those deaths would be easily dismissed by his peers as unfortunate occupational hazards, not glaring red flags, AND his continuing to work with those types of patients would be seen as evidence of Hannibal's professionalism and compassionate nature.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:28 AM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

echolalia67, I apologize for misreading and saying you'd had any part in supplying drugs to your ex!!! So careless of me.

I still stand by my position that Alana is free to see Hannibal as a saint, but not to sit in an interrogation room with her boyfriend and tell him he is a saint, and not to sit in an interrogation room with a farcically framed suspect and tell that suspect he's going down because her boyfriend is a saint.
posted by tel3path at 11:37 AM on April 22, 2014

I still stand by my position that Alana is free to see Hannibal as a saint, but not to sit in an interrogation room with her boyfriend and tell him he is a saint, and not to sit in an interrogation room with a farcically framed suspect and tell that suspect he's going down because her boyfriend is a saint.

I think that Alana's interrogations were terrible, but Jack "Terrible-Personnel-Management" Crawford is apparently the person who decided she'd be in there, so...? As head of the BAU, he's the one who's apparently giving the OK for Alana to interview her own boyfriend *and* colleague, and who would rather have Alana-the-psychiatrist in the interrogation room with the suspects while Jack-the-law-enforcement-professional hangs out with newly released Ripper victims (instead of the other way around?), and who took Mariam specifically to Hannibal to get her old memories back (why not ask Alana to do *that*? Nobody has ever accused her of being the Ripper!) and basically doing whatever he can to assign work in the least effective and most emotionally damaging way possible. What this show is really teaching me is the value of professional development.
posted by rue72 at 11:46 AM on April 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

Just keep in mind that my defense of the character is less about being "Team Alana" and more about being "Team Unfortunate Human Tendencies".
posted by echolalia67 at 11:47 AM on April 22, 2014

Oh yeah, unfortunate human tendencies, I agree. Just don't forget Team Unfortunate Humans, is what I'm saying. Of whom Alana is one, but not the only one.

And I agree that the buck for pisspoor management stops with Jack. Like I keep saying it's the whole system that's rotten here. I just see Alana getting a lot of credit in the fandom for being really "professional" when, right now, her actions are anything but.
posted by tel3path at 11:59 AM on April 22, 2014

I put A LOT of this at Jack's feet. Allowing the romantic partner of one of the suspects to interview the other suspect? Geeze, like a defense attorney wouldn't have a field day with that one!
Repeatedly putting emotionally traumatized agents on the verge of burnout back into the field over and over, despite their complaints that they're not up to the task. Allowing unqualified academy trainees to go out without backup on a hunt for serial killers. Jack Crawford is an HR and legal department's worst nightmare!
posted by echolalia67 at 12:16 PM on April 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

Jack Crawford is an HR and legal department's worst nightmare!

All through the first season and into the start of this season, I (and I wasn't alone) kept wondering how they'd ever let Jack off the hook for any of this if the show wanted to keep him in his current job through into the seasons more directly derived from the books...

Only to have Kade Purnell show up and very clearly just want to sweep the whole thing under the rug because it makes the FBI look bad and it's easier to just maintain the status quo. Which of COURSE.

I'd have to look back through my own comments to be sure, but my recollection is that I wasn't quite willing to go to that cynical of a place when it came to answering the question of how a terrible manager like Jack[1] hangs on to his job through all this.

And I guess if he gets injured in the line of duty while taking down Hannibal (or at least kicking off the manhunt), well, that just makes him look like a hero regardless of the clusterfuck that got him into that wine closet in the first place...

[1] - I actually do think Jack is a pretty solid investigator, for all the mistakes we've seen him make. Like I can totally see how he ended up in his current job... Just as I can see how completely godawful he is at certain critical portions of it.
posted by sparkletone at 12:38 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, I was just looking at the calendar for unrelated reasons and realized in another month we'll all be staring down another hiatus. NOT READY TO LET GO, even as I very much don't want the show to have its episode order increased for a number of reasons, and am glad they're just airing them straight through with no weeks off.
posted by sparkletone at 12:38 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

I just watched the first scene of the first episode of this season, and now have a couple of questions (probably rhetorical ones):

Although it's a mistake to think that everything Hannibal serves is longpig, I worry about the provenance of the meat he was slicing when Jack entered the kitchen.

So, how many houseguests does he have in his basement, anyway?
posted by Grangousier at 1:03 PM on April 22, 2014

Put it this way. We know the longpig isn't jack at that point, and we know the longpig isn't alana at that point.

By dint of being contracted up to season 5, we assume the longpig isn't will at that point, but i don't even know how safe an assumption that is.

I do think we can safely assume it's someone fairly close to jack in some way. Probably not Bella, as there's too much wrong with the meat.
posted by tel3path at 1:27 PM on April 22, 2014

I just read bonearena's article and i actually disagree with it.

I think that right now we're clearly seeing hannibal in a state of unrequited love for Will, and it's increasingly clear that hannibal is looking forward to its becoming a sexual love.

Look at the first bedroom scene with Alana: "we buried Will" - a completely bleak scene, totally devoid of the hotness we were promised. It is believable that they didn't have sex at all. And Will is all they can talk about while they're in bed togethher.

The second one: beautifully shot destructo nookie, completely cold and devoid of intimacy. We get to watch them fake love. But darned if it's not energetic, so that's something. It turns out alana started a conversation about will and was interrupted by hannibal rugby-tackling her, in part to distract her. They talk about will for a bit more and then hannibal's at her again, in record time. You'd have to be pretty oblivious not to think that alana is a proxy for Will here. Sure hanni gets off on having power, but he had that last time. This time, will has been reborn, is out of jail and physically accessible to hanni again, is in therapy and mentally accessible to hanni again.

The only thing i can possibly think on seeing that scene is that hannibal is excited by the anticipation of a sexual relationship with will. I think he is working towards that and living in sure and certain hope that he's gonna get it.

Now on the other hand i believe mads when he says will is as straight as a nail. I agree that he is. I think he's gonna take this fake relationship as far as he has to. Rue72 mentioned and i agree, that hannibal is going to want will to do a murder first, so that the sex will be truly intimate. So will has looming in his future the requirement to commit murder and the requirement to have sex with a man that he doesn't even want, let alone that this man is monstrously abusive, all towards the goal of incriminating this monster. Needless to say I hope will manages to take hannibal down in time to evade doing either of those things because to go through with either of them would be horrifying.

What i do think is worth some horrification though, is if will gets into a good position to play football with what we laughingly call hannibal's heart. I hope hannibal cries bitter tears in his cell for a good long time afterwards, that's what i hope hannigram will bring us.

I think the cliffhanger is gonna be whether we have dark!Will or good!Will at the end, and I do not look forward to another agonizing he-ate-us.
posted by tel3path at 1:47 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

So, how many houseguests does he have in his basement, anyway?

Unknown. As tel3path indicated, we can metagame and assume it can't be Will (not that it means he's safe from harm, exactly). Without getting into much detail: From very carefully looking at some of the trailers/previews that were posted in the run up to the start of the season, we can make a small number of other assumptions... But we don't know a whole lot for sure, even now with just a few more episodes before we'll be reaching the fight.

Honestly, I'd assume whatever he's preparing at the start of the fight is people too, but not necessarily that it's anyone we know.
posted by sparkletone at 1:49 PM on April 22, 2014

Today in "Hannibal-related things that made me cackle" (crackvid, nothing spoilery if you're caught up, mild if you're not).
posted by sparkletone at 1:53 PM on April 22, 2014

The AV Club walkthrough includes this interesting comment from Fuller on the introduction of Margot:

In the novel, she’s a very masculine character, who has had years of steroid abuse and is a lesbian, and it was unclear to me in the novel whether she was either transgender or a lesbian as a result of those horrible abuses and that horrible childhood and [Beat.] that’s not how transgenderism or homosexuality works. So I didn’t want to contribute to that misconception of what it is to be transgender or a gay woman.

in which you can almost *hear* his eyes rolling. Maybe this also points to a less problematic depiction of Jame Gumb, if they ever do get to SoTL.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:07 PM on April 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

Apparently NBC sent out their Emmy packet. I'm fully expecting Hannibal to be completely left out of nominations again (even in technical categories), but that said of the episodes that've aired, I think their choice of 2x05 is a pretty good one if you can only pick one.
posted by sparkletone at 2:14 PM on April 22, 2014

Incidentally also: Mark Watches has just started on S1 of Hannibal:
This isn’t a slow build. IT’S A PERPETUAL TRAINWRECK OF TERROR.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:15 PM on April 22, 2014 [4 favorites]

I was actually wondering how many houseguests Hannibal has in show-present rather than in the flash forward. We already have an idea that Jack and Bella were eating their first meal with Hannibal upstairs, Miriam was downstairs contemplating a life with no guitar-playing in it. I'm assuming that Abigail is there, and that Gideon was until he was moved to Dr Chilton's guest room (also easy to wipe clean, in the basement, near the wine rack, interestingly). Perhaps Bedelia.

I'm not sure that contracts guarantee a non meal-based role. Hettienne Park is still in the credits. It's certainly true that as soon as you see Jack, before the fight, you can tell that he's very annoyed indeed.

That's a hell of a fight, by the way.
posted by Grangousier at 2:20 PM on April 22, 2014

I was actually wondering how many houseguests Hannibal has in show-present rather than in the flash forward.

I think the only two things Hannibal keeps in his murder basement is trophies (that aren't about to be defrosted and used) and any ongoing tableau projects ... where it's feasible to (we know he did Tree Man out at that shack, and possibly Bev as well).

Miriam is an exception (since we knew her arm came off while she was alive and the phone messages and what not), true, but she's free of at least the literal murder basement if not the mental one.

Hettienne Park is still in the credits

Bev is dead dead dead and will only appear in flashbacks/hallucinations from here on out if at all. A couple episodes ago they found some jars of her blood that Hannibal drained before doing his freeze'n'slice thing. Hannibal already ate the trophy he took from her. There's nothing left of her to find.

As for Bedelia... The whole point of the scene with the covered furniture and the Eau De Nope was that she got away. Bedelia got away unless/until the show says differently. Fuller will get cheeky on twitter, but "#GOTOUTOFDODGE" is pretty unambiguous. I remember some vague hinting that she might show up in one of the later episodes this season, and certainly Fuller's said they'd love to get more Bedelia on the show on several occasions, but I don't think that's been confirmed as happening before this season concludes (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

All this to say... The precise contents of the murder basement in terms of people isn't clear right now. We don't know if he's planning any more ART MURDERS between now and the finale (one assumes he probably won't be able to help himself though), and the list of characters we've met who in whole or part might be down there is exhausted at the moment.
posted by sparkletone at 3:17 PM on April 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

Incidentally also: Mark Watches has just started on S1 of Hannibal:
This isn’t a slow build. IT’S A PERPETUAL TRAINWRECK OF TERROR.

My reaction to this news went a lot like this.
posted by sparkletone at 3:18 PM on April 22, 2014

New interview with Fuller. The interview's pretty content free (mostly about what old horror movies Bryan loves), but it contains a pic of Michael Pitt in costume taken by David Slade which is worth a look.
posted by sparkletone at 3:24 PM on April 22, 2014

I have a lot of feelings about that outfit
posted by The Whelk at 3:31 PM on April 22, 2014

IT’S A PERPETUAL TRAINWRECK OF TERROR.

Ha, he's only on S1E4. Wait until he finds Ala3222ofas;dgzxcbq$CARRIER LOST
posted by localroger at 3:32 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

I have a lot of feelings about that outfit

Curious to see what it looks like in color. I get kind of a Byrne/Lynch vibe from the hair?

I don't think we meet him this week though. I think it's next week, if I remember correctly.
posted by sparkletone at 3:36 PM on April 22, 2014

Huuuuuh

Looks like Brown is going to be a reoccurring character.
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on April 22, 2014

Oh? That doesn't surprise me. His gunshot wound at the end of 2x05 looked decidedly non-lethal by TV standards.
posted by sparkletone at 3:50 PM on April 22, 2014

Wow, poor Mark is really going to run out of superlatives by the time he gets to season two.
posted by dogheart at 6:04 PM on April 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wow, poor Mark is really going to run out of superlatives by the time he gets to season two.

He is clearly One Of Us™ even if he doesn't know it, given that he can't really be super-connected with the fandom at all when he's not caught up and all of that. He flails like we flail.

Also, I hope somebody gives him a xanax or something before the bee episode when he gets there.
posted by sparkletone at 6:22 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

OH my god this first Mark Watches is just delicious.

But he’s also deeply aware that the line between his empathy and his own mind is very thin, and I think that’s something the show is clearly going to explore.

But how close will Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter get in this version?

And in the end, Will finds that Dr. Lecter has been watching over Hobbs’s daughter. Just… WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? Is he going to eat her next or something?

Muahaha
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:12 PM on April 22, 2014

Oh, and from the second review: He once worked homicide, but we learn that one of the reasons he was pulled out of the field was his reluctance to ever pull the trigger on someone. So what does it mean that Will shot Hobbs ten times?

I didn't remember this at all. In light of recent events, it's pretty awesome that this detail cropped up in episode 2.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:21 PM on April 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

Sparkletone, I think Bedelia will be back in ep10.
posted by tel3path at 12:03 AM on April 23, 2014

The last time I'd gone trawling for why I thought she was coming back in one of the last few episodes, what I found was some interview snippets that were just saying Fuller'd like to have her back (not conclusive) and this picture which I think definitely implies she will be? March 10th was a Monday, so that pic's not part of Friday live tweeting, but I don't know what episode they could've been filming then.
posted by sparkletone at 12:22 AM on April 23, 2014

Jack Crawford is an HR and legal department's worst nightmare!

All through the first season and into the start of this season, I (and I wasn't alone) kept wondering how they'd ever let Jack off the hook for any of this if the show wanted to keep him in his current job through into the seasons more directly derived from the books...

Only to have Kade Purnell show up and very clearly just want to sweep the whole thing under the rug because it makes the FBI look bad and it's easier to just maintain the status quo. Which of COURSE.

I'd have to look back through my own comments to be sure, but my recollection is that I wasn't quite willing to go to that cynical of a place when it came to answering the question of how a terrible manager like Jack[1] hangs on to his job through all this.

And this is another example of how deceptively realistic the show is. I didn't even blink at this, because I've seen it happen repeatedly. I don't say someone in as high a position as Jack would never get fired... but it'll be easy to keep him in post until all his underlings are either dead or incarcerated and there's nobody left to scapegoat.
posted by tel3path at 7:04 AM on April 23, 2014

You know, I really really hope that after the ultra-bloodbath... the bloodflood... and after Will escapes to Florida he sues the BAU and Hannibal and the BSHCI for wrongful dismissal, wrongful imprisonment, medical malpractice, intentional infliction of emotional distress, wrongful use of fabric patterns, and parking next to a fire hydrant.

If Abigail Hobbs could be cleaned out by wrongful death suits against her father's estate, I don't see why Will can't turn the principle around in his own favour.
posted by tel3path at 7:25 AM on April 23, 2014 [2 favorites]

Okay, who feels a sense of impending serious badness when they say they're gonna unleash the monster this week?

I mean... what were they unleashing before?
posted by tel3path at 10:31 AM on April 23, 2014

In all seriousness, I think Will could wreak all manner of destruction simply by suing in accordance with his reasonable entitlement to sue.

"Hot enough for ya here in Florida? How's the boat business?"

"Pretty good, but I'm also lucky to have my $18 billion settlement to tide me over"
posted by tel3path at 10:52 AM on April 23, 2014

I'm worried that Will is gonna go dark this week... Already...
posted by tel3path at 10:56 AM on April 23, 2014

Okay, who feels a sense of impending serious badness when they say they're gonna unleash the monster this week?

Weirdly, I feel ... relatively safe for the moment? RELATIVELY. Relatively. The preview suggests this is just a freaky dude in a freaky monster suit, which should make for some really interesting Red Dragon parallels...

But for some reason I'm not particularly worried about our overall status quo until Mason arrives on the scene next week.
posted by sparkletone at 11:17 AM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Pretty good, but I'm also lucky to have my $18 billion settlement to tide me over"

As unlikely as I think this turn exact turn is at the moment, oh my god would I love to see Hugh in RIGHTEOUS FURY mode and get his pay out and get to go be happy for a little while... Until Dolarhyde starts being a thing.

I've talked before, I think, about how a montage at the end of S3 might be a nice way to elide having to go through the messiness of dramatizing Hannibal's trial and all that. Having this idea being referenced in one of those moments, and then paid off in 4x01 with a snarky comment when Jack's trying to coax Will back out into the field would be great.
posted by sparkletone at 11:59 AM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've talked before, I think, about how a montage at the end of S3 might be a nice way to elide having to go through the messiness of dramatizing Hannibal's trial and all that.

No way, I want Hannibal sitting smugly in a courtroom watching jurors turn green after being shown photos of his work. And maybe an interview between Freddie and Hannibal.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:07 PM on April 23, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't really see the interview happening. I'd think Fuller would want to stick to the "Freddie exploits Will while he's convalescing and this makes for bad blood"? Maybe that's just me. They already don't like each other, even though she helped him draw out the orderly.

But the other thing could totally happen in said montage! I just don't see the show wanting to waste whole episodes on boring legal drama during which everyone's rehashing the details of crimes we've already got from watching whole seasons of the show, and Hannibal's going to end up being declared insane and put away forever anyway.

I would most be looking forward to Chilton with his cane and his cheek scar looking SMUG AS FUCK as Hannibal gets put into his cell at BSHCI for the first time.

Also, speaking of people turning green, I wonder if when Jack and crew finally turn Hannibal's house upside down we'll get a shout out to that cop that Red Dragon says quit being police when he saw Hannibal's basement and went to run a hotel. Like one guy walks down the stairs in the background of a scene and NOPE NOPE NOPEs back up and we never see him again.
posted by sparkletone at 12:18 PM on April 23, 2014 [3 favorites]

That'll be someone we know.
posted by tel3path at 12:29 PM on April 23, 2014

Wouldn't it be hilarious if alana took over the bshci and were hannibal's jailer.

Maybe not, she doesn't have chilton's comic timing.
posted by tel3path at 12:52 PM on April 23, 2014

Actually i think the story of how hannibal manages to spin this into an insanity defense will be worth watching.
posted by tel3path at 12:53 PM on April 23, 2014 [3 favorites]

Mmmmmmmaybe. I mean, I'm not going to be upset if the show goes that way. But Hannibal's trial would have to be way more involved than Will's, and given how kinda blah Will's trial episode was... I'm okay with moving past it with it only being seen glancingly. The more recent Red Dragon movie opens with a title sequence that has a lot of news clippings about Hannibal and his trial underneath the credits... That wouldn't be anywhere near satisfying enough here though. We definitely need to see something, but I'm not sure how much actually absolutely has to be there.

We'll see what Fuller and co. decided on when we get there, I suppose.
posted by sparkletone at 1:02 PM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ah yes freddie.

Haven't seen much of her lately, have we? She's an unknown quantity.

The way she was snapping Hannibal on the way out of the BSHCI suggests to me that fucking finally, one person is actually working towards proving Hannibal is the Ripper AND ISN'T GOING TO JUST FUCKING IGNORE THE EVIDENCE THEY COLLECT.

It's as rue72 said, it's not proof against hannibal that's needed, it's loss of status. Freddie disgraces people for a living. How could she resist disgracing Hannibal considering how juicy it would be to do so?

Btw I think hannibal thinks he has her in his back pocket and that they have an arrangement. I think she sends him exclusive previews which is how he made a mask piecrust before the relevant article was published.

Freddie is the ONE person other than Will who is NOT going to benefit from disavowing that Hannibal is the Ripper.

I can't imagine why we saw her photographing hannibal if she were not trying to build a case against him. If he's not eaten her yet, it's most likely because he wants the publicity anyway.

Hands up who thinks all-seeing Hanni has anticipated this and will turn it around to embarrass her.

I think she might take hannigram pics maybe, and show them to alana and provoke her to blow up. But that might wreck the story.

Actually I think that maybe the real arrangement, possibly unbeknownst to Freddie, is that she will have exclusive rights to the biggest story evar, which was always intended to be hannibal's story so he thinks she is playing into his hands. My guess is that it won't turn out quite like that.
posted by tel3path at 1:07 PM on April 23, 2014

Actually i think the story of how hannibal manages to spin this into an insanity defense will be worth watching.

I definitely want to see at least *some* of Hannibal's trial -- I want to see his defense, and how he tries to play with the judge and jury, and I also want to see how it falls apart. I want to really *feel* it when he gets that guilty verdict.

And I want the reaction shot to be of Alana's face, because I have no idea what she'd be feeling right then.

Freddie is the ONE person other than Will who is NOT going to benefit from disavowing that Hannibal is the Ripper.

Freddie's like a force of nature. If there's a story, she'll run with it, and people do listen to her. She actually might have the greatest ability to influence others out of the whole cast -- she can poison the whole atmosphere with just the threat of an article. I don't really know how the show manages to make that believable, but they do. Also, I don't think it's for nothing that she's got red hair (w/r/t the red/blue pill idea) and is a vegetarian.
posted by rue72 at 1:16 PM on April 23, 2014

I really despise false-witness-bearers which is why I have hated the Freddie character since the books. But this Freddie really is different. She told us herself I guess - she's shameless, but not necessarily heartless.

I wonder if she meant what she said when she gave Will the interview. It is possible that she doesn't think he's a psychopath and was just performing for the camera. But then she is supposed to be a thorn in his side, continually following him with headlines screaming that he's a psychopath. However this Freddie doesn't need to do that since Will has so many friends who are basically doing that for him, so we'll see how that unfolds.
posted by tel3path at 1:23 PM on April 23, 2014

Yes - people listen to Freddie because she threatens them with that which they fear the most.

EMBARRASSMENT.
posted by tel3path at 1:34 PM on April 23, 2014

Interesting! Can/will Hannibal feel embarrassment? If/when Freddie does a tell all about his murder basement and menus and framings and brutality... he's not going to be embarrassed. He's going to be proud, happy that his work is being shown to the world.

As y'all have said, he wants people to know, he doesn't feel like what he is doing is wrong (cf. Amanda Plummer's acupuncturist) and won't feel embarrassed. The only reason he isn't telling everybody himself is that he wants to be able to keep doing it. He enjoys selecting and killing victims, staging them and eating their organs.

I would not be looking forward to Hannibal's trial; Fuller showed he had no understanding of/use for the court system with Will's trial.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:43 PM on April 23, 2014

I would not be looking forward to Hannibal's trial; Fuller showed he had no understanding of/use for the court system with Will's trial.

But he does know how to spin a yarn! And so does Hannibal. It'll be his big, public debut!

The show in general is much bigger on how reality *feels* rather than how it *is. Just like everything on this show (the BAU's operations, etc), I think the trial will be emotionally, not not logistically, realistic. That's enough for me! Plus, I think it'll be fun, like watching a play within a play.
posted by rue72 at 1:50 PM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's the others who can be embarrassed.

As Kade Purnell showed, she didn't care about keeping Jack around incompetence and all, because embarrassment was what the FBI was really afraid of. Embarrassment is the real crime.

As I've said i think that leonard braver put the fear of embarrassment into alana which was one thing that pushed her into hanni's arms and distanced her from the scapegoat.

You notice Will was fired and hasn't gotten his teaching post back despite being exonerated? Jack is occasionally giving him consulting work. He wasn't fired for committing multiple murders, he was fired for embarrassing the FBI. His exoneration won't prompt them to give his job back because it doesn't relieve their embarrassment, in fact, it makes them double embarrassed for getting it wrong twice. Likewise, it doesn't matter to Jack to rehire Hannibal nor to alana to date him because right now, Hannibal is not embarrassing.
posted by tel3path at 1:57 PM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think the liberties taken with the trial, like the very small size of Team Sassy Science, have to be taken in the spirit of stage production, being symbolic of things that are too large or time-consuming to show accurately.

Harris mentions in Red Dragon that the trial is a media circus. He also mentions in Hannibal that Lecter does not seek the insanity defense himself, but rather the court applies it for him. A trial scene would definitely give Mads the chalk to chew up some scenery.
posted by localroger at 3:05 PM on April 23, 2014 [5 favorites]

Poor Hanni, soon he'll have a soulmate with whom to share his life and his osso buco.
posted by tel3path at 3:39 PM on April 23, 2014

In partial answer to my previous question about the residents of Hôtel Lecter, I notice in episode two of the current season that he turns the collage killer's leg into four servings and then eats one of them himself, alone at his dinner table.

The leg is all he has though. The rest of the guy was left sewn into his big eye thing. So maybe there's some left overs in the freezer, but nothing that they'd be able to identify without testing.

...

Presumably Hannibal got rid of that foot he tossed in the sink... *shudder*
posted by sparkletone at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2014

No, what I meant was that he eats one serving himself, and was at that time providing meals for three guests, who we don't' see. He doesn't appear to have company at the table (he's not interacting with anyone the way he does when Jack comes over, for example), so I assume his guests eat in their rooms. It's nice he's not greedy and is willing to share.

Sorry, this is my Thing right now. In fact, if I get a chance, I might go back through and see if I can spot other occasions where he's been cooking much more food than he could eat by himself without any obvious guests.
posted by Grangousier at 4:17 PM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

From Harris' description and Beverly's reaction, I'd guess the Murder Basement contains a rather impressive display.
posted by localroger at 4:19 PM on April 23, 2014

In fact, if I get a chance, I might go back through and see if I can spot other occasions where he's been cooking much more food than he could eat by himself without any obvious guests.

That he'd have house guests that we don't see never occurred to me given what he does with his free time. He can't just drug EVERYONE the way he does/did Alana (... I don't think). For the osso bucco in 4x02, the table is pretty obviously set for one when he finally sits down to eat. I think he just saved the other servings for later.

I don't think the implication is that other people will be eating what he can't himself outside of obvious guest situations.
posted by sparkletone at 4:30 PM on April 23, 2014

Goddammit, tumblr.
posted by sparkletone at 4:33 PM on April 23, 2014 [3 favorites]

Mark Watches Hannibal 1x05 - I think this show might literally kill him.
posted by crossoverman at 4:51 PM on April 23, 2014

For the osso bucco in 4x02, the table is pretty obviously set for one when he finally sits down to eat. I think he just saved the other servings for later.

What I mean is: It's not unreasonable to assume Miriam gets fed by some of his left overs until her release... I'm just saying that 4 servings of osso bucco doesn't translate to "he feeds four individual people with this" to me.
posted by sparkletone at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2014

To be honest Mark is kinda always at that level. This may force him to retire the caps lock key however.
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on April 23, 2014

I'm not sure Mark could function without caps lock, bless him. He is a treasure and I'm so delighted he's doing this.
posted by Stacey at 6:00 PM on April 23, 2014 [1 favorite]

HE MAY NEED TO CAPSLOCK, BOLD AND UNDERLINE ALL HIS THOUGHTS.
posted by crossoverman at 6:13 PM on April 23, 2014

I expect him to devolve into incoherent keyboard smashing and rocking back and forth and weeping by, oh, the second episode of season two.
posted by dogheart at 6:26 PM on April 23, 2014

My blood pressure was only 240/140 on the treadmill and I now have a spiffy new stent. Mark needs to get a handle on it, I mean FFS he's only on S1E5. By the time Will starts hallucinating elk man he's gonna stroke out.

Or start hallucinating elk man! There's something so oddly meta about these recaps (which I love).

Mark's a genius, though. I can't wait until he gets to the juicier episodes. Really interested on his take on Roti, and, actually, on Gideon altogether.
posted by rue72 at 7:15 PM on April 23, 2014

I've never watched one of his videos, and I wish he'd post snippets of a few of them or something so you could get a taste? He has videos of him reading fic and stuff on his youtube channel but it seems like the videos are of him watching the show? I'm really tempted to grab the one for the finale of the first season to see if he's having a nervous breakdown by then or something if that's what the video versions are.
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 PM on April 23, 2014

His videos used to be free to watch - people commissioned him to do their favourite episodes. But the hosting bill was killing him. I think there are ways around paying - or buying a selection of episodes for reduced price. But they are definitely worth it, I saw a few of his Buffy and Angel ones when he was watching them. FUN TIMES.
posted by crossoverman at 11:53 PM on April 23, 2014

Don't mind the pay thing at all. Dude deserves sandwich money and then some for the fun writing he does and stuff. It's just harder without teasers to get a sense of what the videos are (is he just reading the blog posts, or is it him watching the show in the moment, etc). Not a big deal. I've blown 99c and more on sillier things!
posted by sparkletone at 11:59 PM on April 23, 2014

Just read an interview with bf where he says that at the end of s1 the entire paradigm is out the window and at the end of s2 the entire paradigm is out the window.

Nothing we didn't know in a way, but the word "paradigm" helps i guess

So what is the paradigm though?

I'm afraid it's gonna be the paradigm that will is the good guy. Dark!Will is the thing that would constitute an unhappy ending for me.

But, what else could it be though? Who has speculations?
posted by tel3path at 2:39 AM on April 24, 2014

Paradigm shifts:

will is trying to take hannibal down/will stops trying to take hannibal down?

Will did not do any of these murders/will did do some of these murders?

Will is not a killer/will becomes a killer?

Or something else? Gnawing furniture here.
posted by tel3path at 2:59 AM on April 24, 2014

Will puts everyone in jail except hannibal?
posted by tel3path at 3:01 AM on April 24, 2014

Hannibal becomes head of the bau?

Miriam bites off hannibal's arm?

Winston and the pack get tired of these humans' bullshit and take over the FBI themselves? (They'd probably be good at it too)
posted by tel3path at 3:04 AM on April 24, 2014

Will sacrifices his own life intentionally and takes down Hannibal that way?
posted by tel3path at 3:26 AM on April 24, 2014

Will becomes a cat person.
posted by Partario at 3:34 AM on April 24, 2014 [8 favorites]

Literally. With a tail and everything. They try to gain his trust with food and squeaky toys and making little tchk tchk noises but to no avail. Finally they pretend to ignore him and start putting together a giant jigsaw puzzle, a stratagem that shows its efficacy when he can bear it no longer and walks over and sits on it slap in the middle, purring loudly as if that's a normal thing to do.
posted by Grangousier at 4:13 AM on April 24, 2014 [6 favorites]

Hannibal changes his name to Hegetarian.
posted by tel3path at 5:23 AM on April 24, 2014

Seekritly hoping one of the twists is Miriam As Murder Intern.
posted by The Whelk at 5:55 AM on April 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

How about Hannibal and MIRIAM run off together?
posted by tel3path at 6:40 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd bet money that next season, Hannibal is on the run. No more swanky dinner parties, no more charming the members of high society... and a guy like him definitely has a plan for getting caught, so it won't be a desperate flight.

The rest of this is idle speculation which I'm less convinced about, but: say Hannibal does go on the run. Does Will go with him? Once everyone knows/believes he's a killer, Will won't need to keep playing his fishing game, so the only reason for Will to do that (as opposed to, say, killing him) would be if he wanted to. What could make him want to do that?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:42 AM on April 24, 2014

Prediction, season two ends on a huge high note for Hannibal, I dunno, making out caked in Mason's blood or something

Opener for Season three ends with all this coming tumbling down and bam, Hannibal on the run .( it wasn't me it was the one armed Miriam !)
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 AM on April 24, 2014

Word of God says S3 will be like The Fugitive.

If we get it.

The one-armed man? Eh? Eh?
posted by tel3path at 6:55 AM on April 24, 2014

I say Miriam comes out of the woodwork and Miriam is the one who proves she's worthy of her Hanni-bear after all.

Then they run off together.
posted by tel3path at 6:56 AM on April 24, 2014

Arm in arm
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 AM on April 24, 2014

Nah. There's no way you stick a piece of glass in Jack Crawford's neck and end up with another 13 episodes of time before having to run.

I'm taking what feels simultaneously like the most naive but also the most positive interpretation. The paradigm that goes out the window is will trying to prove to everyone that Hannibal is the monster he's been claiming he is all season. Everyone will irrevocably know now. I think Hannibal will get away ... But now it will be time for Hannibal on the run, a completely new paradigm!
posted by sparkletone at 6:57 AM on April 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

I say the paradigm shift is Lassibal taking precedence over Hannigram.

I am starting to think they are not expecting to get a third season, though.
posted by tel3path at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2014

Hannibal on the run! QUCK check all the Four Seasons hotels in the area! Full a full chalet and manor house sweep!
posted by The Whelk at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Finally they pretend to ignore him and start putting together a giant jigsaw puzzle, a stratagem that shows its efficacy when he can bear it no longer and walks over and sits on it slap in the middle, purring loudly as if that's a normal thing to do.

If puzzling crime = jigsaw puzzle, I don't think that this would be a paradigm shift.

I am starting to think they are not expecting to get a third season, though.

Whoa, really?
posted by rue72 at 6:59 AM on April 24, 2014

Or, of course, the whole thing could end with everybody dead except Will, and Will getting clapped in jail AGAIN.

That would be just his luck.
posted by tel3path at 7:00 AM on April 24, 2014

Well, it hasn't been renewed yet, but there's a flood of articles calling it the best show on TV, and apparently it's fairly cheap to produce- so I'm not TOO worried about NBC canceling it. And if they did, of course, didn't we hear that someone else might pick it up?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:05 AM on April 24, 2014

I could imagine that even if no TV network picked it up (unlikely) that they'd finish it up in some format, even maybe comic-book format.
posted by tel3path at 7:06 AM on April 24, 2014

Actually, that's what I think is going to happen. Hannigram break up for reals this time, and Miriam saves Hannibal at the last second in such a dazzlingly clever fashion that Hannibal falls for her all over again, and off they go into the blood-red sunset together.
posted by tel3path at 7:13 AM on April 24, 2014

Jack is probably the third major death, assuming we get three and only three.

Alana will hold out until the absolute last second, and will probably not die, and her mental survival will be in even greater jeopardy than her physical survival in the aftermath.

Freddie will explode into action at some point, I do think; she can't have appeared for no reason in S2. They may be getting something big ready for her.

The Science Bros, I don't know what they're doing while all this is going down. It's possible, I think, that they'll get a bit rebellious depending on how much evidence seems to get ignored. Maybe Zeller will go to Freddie and take back what he said in his earlier interview, and things will escalate from there.

The thing with Jack, I think, isn't now that he disbelieves Hannibal did it, it's the way he intends to take him down. He's not investigating, as already explicated; it seems more like he's waiting to catch Hannibal redhanded in some way. He said "you hook him, I'll reel him in" and we also have Will's exasperated "why did you come alone?" and of course, we had the flash forward to the ending fight scene, so I think Jack puts himself in a position where physical confrontation is the only option he has left and, as we see, that's probably his downfall. A big guy like that probably assumes, wrongly, that he's likely to win most fights.

Will is left caked in blood and repeating "I told you so" on an eerie continuous loop of catatonia. He checks himself into a proper loony bin, with proper doctors. He is allowed to have his dogs in there. He spends most of his time there on stick-throwing therapy. Leonard encourages him to file lawsuits for wrongful everything against everyone left alive.
posted by tel3path at 7:22 AM on April 24, 2014

I could imagine that even if no TV network picked it up (unlikely) that they'd finish it up in some format, even maybe comic-book format.

Wait, so you do think it'll be getting a third season? I had figured it might go to FX or something, but not get canceled altogether. What makes you think they're not expecting a third season?

Are they going to finish out the whole Verger storyline in just these last episodes? (At least give it enough time to explain how their house is apparently built over the most amazing fish tank in the world, please? How they shot Mason brutalizing Margot on top of that enclosed glass tank, it looked like they live in a glass bottomed boat).
posted by rue72 at 7:27 AM on April 24, 2014

Maybe the paradigm shift will be everyone claiming they knew all along Hannibal was the Ripper...

that would be sodding typical
posted by tel3path at 7:46 AM on April 24, 2014

Maybe the paradigm shift will be everyone claiming they knew all along Hannibal was the Ripper...

that would be sodding typical

Of course they're going to do that, though. Why would anyone say or do anything different? That's another reason I want to see the trial, I want to see the tipping point between everybody being like "probably, yeah....[hedges bets in any way possible]" to -- once it's clear Hannibal's going to be convicted or is convicted -- everyone suddenly becoming all bluster: "he scared me all along but you all didn't listen!"

I hope Bella is still alive at that point. How mad is she going to be at Jack if he tries to pull that "I knew something was wrong with Hannibal all along!" card in front of her?

But that probably is the paradigm shift, it's probably that everyone "knows"/says that Hannibal's a killer.
posted by rue72 at 7:52 AM on April 24, 2014

Alana can claim she was going undercover, fnar fnar.
posted by tel3path at 8:08 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

In season 4, Freddie and an exasperated Will collaborate on the book "EVERYBODY WAS STUPID," a memoir of the most shocking scandal ever to hit the FBI
posted by tel3path at 8:45 AM on April 24, 2014 [3 favorites]

What makes you think they're not expecting a third season?

I'm mystified by this also. There's no indication either in the show itself or in the conversation around it that suggests the show's creators are worried about getting axed. The worst we can say is that it's not a sure thing that if NBC decides not to continue with them that the other party or parties are still interested.

The ratings haven't been significantly worse than the first season and the show's in a timeslot with even lower expectations while it continues to rack up critical adoration. Why would we think the situation now is significantly different than it was at this point in S1 last year as far as renewal chances go given what we have to go on?
posted by sparkletone at 8:49 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've been thinking about Breaking Bad's ratings, too. The first three seasons had fewer than 2 million viewers, and then the viewership began to climb exponentially, and by the finale there were over 10 million viewers. And then they swept every award and made AMC look like visionaries. (I was one of the people who hopped on board during the fourth season.)

I'm hoping for a similar outcome for Hannibal. It's got a small viewership, but the more critical acclaim it gets and the more word of mouth spreads, the better it will do.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:20 AM on April 24, 2014

Short clip from this week's episode. Dark!Will is perhaps looking more likely?

I'm hoping for a similar outcome for Hannibal. It's got a small viewership, but the more critical acclaim it gets and the more word of mouth spreads, the better it will do.

I am also, to the extent possible. I don't think it'll ever be quite the big hit that Breaking Bad was simply because it's too weird and dark a show, but I do think that easy availability of past episodes will be a big deal in helping ratings improve at least some.

The thing that really put Breaking Bad on the map was that it happened to have the first 3 seasons all get plopped on Netflix at kind of just the right time to catch the start of bingewatching being a thing that became so common we made up that term for it.

I had a LOT of trouble getting people to give Hannibal a shot before it was added to Amazon Prime and even now, I wish it were more widely available than just that simply because I know way more people with netflix than with Prime, but... Enh. Something's better than nothing?
posted by sparkletone at 9:31 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

New AV Club article!

Sparkletone- I hear you on that. I always have to introduce it like "I thought it sounded terrible too! But hear me out!"

Since the Season 1 DVDs are now SO cheap- like under $15- I am actually thinking of getting two of 'em and lending one out to like everyone I know.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

OK while we're throwing out blue-sky scenarios...

Hannibal is getting sloppy. He knows this and has planned for it. He's having too much fun to dial it down but he knows he will soon have to go on the Hannilam.

After the big fight once Jack has lost enough blood to be helpless, Hannibal dresses the wound so he can survive until the EMT's arrive because, let's face it, Jack is too damn useful both as torment material and as a loose cannon for Hannibal to let him die.

Hannibal's big project remains realizing Will's suppressed aptitude. After seeing Se7en on cable he is reminded that he is himself the surest bait available for drawing out Will's inner elk, so he does something sure to piss Will off, like Beverlizing Alanna. Then Jack will have to work as hard to keep Will from finding Hannibal first as he does to find Hannibal himself, which is why Hannibal will save Jack's life before lamming.

Along the way he gets around to fucking up Mason's shit on general principles because Mason thinks he's so BAAAAAAD (maybe Mason even gets in touch with him after he's on the run thinking to schmooze) and Hannibal kind of likes Margot and he knows it will help her therapy if she sees that Mason is just a pretentious wanna-be who wouldn't know genuine BAAAAAAD if it slipped him a roofie and cut off his face.

Wild card: Bedelia. Maybe she somehow triggers the big reveal that culminates in the fight?

And that should take us to S3.
posted by localroger at 9:37 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

After the big fight once Jack has lost enough blood to be helpless, Hannibal dresses the wound so he can survive until the EMT's arrive because, let's face it, Jack is too damn useful both as torment material and as a loose cannon for Hannibal to let him die.

Aha, I can totally buy this! It's kind of perfectly in line with his whole god-like, "I have power over both life and death" thing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:43 AM on April 24, 2014

so he does something sure to piss Will off, like Beverlizing Alanna.

I think you're maybe on to something with the overall line of thought about Hannibal doing something to try and really push Will through that inner door they keep talking about, but this specific trigger is contradicted by the trailer snippet where we see Alana pointing a gun at a clearly post-Jack-fight Hannibal.

Just a nitpick though. And it hadn't even occurred to me that Hannibal might somehow be the cause of the wound but also the reason Jack survives it... That's a really interesting thought and would be a bonkers reflection of flipping the coin with Bella.
posted by sparkletone at 9:53 AM on April 24, 2014

Except that the blood loss would probably progress faster than Hannibal can get that door open.

We don't know if he dresses the wound before he goes menacingly down the corridor towards Alana, but still.
posted by tel3path at 9:54 AM on April 24, 2014

Hannibal's big project remains realizing Will's suppressed aptitude. After seeing Se7en on cable he is reminded that he is himself the surest bait available for drawing out Will's inner elk, so he does something sure to piss Will off, like Beverlizing Alanna. Then Jack will have to work as hard to keep Will from finding Hannibal first as he does to find Hannibal himself, which is why Hannibal will save Jack's life before lamming.

I think the payoff for Hannibal won't actually be seeing Will do something terrible, it'll be seeing Will *realize* he's doing something terrible while he's already too far gone to stop doing it. (If there would be a moment for hate!sex, it would be right then. I'm 99% sure they won't do that, but there's an itty bitty part of me that thinks that they might, just to take the Hannigram Slash-of-Horror to its inevitable conclusion. But who knows).

I can especially imagine Hannibal setting things up so that Will is caught in the act and confesses, and nobody believes him. Hannibal might even set it up so that he's going down for something that Will actually did. So I think that Hannibal's actually going to make Will destroy someone else, so that he (Hannibal) will be free to play pseudo-martyr with "loyal" Will proclaiming his innocence by his side. I think that Alana's the best choice to be the "sacrifice" that Will destroys (somehow), because she's Will's mirror image (she's Hannibal's person-suit-wife, and Will is Hannibal's monster-inside-mistress, I think), and because Hannibal won't "need" her anymore once he flies the coop (with Mariam, I think?!) or gets locked up.

Just a nitpick though. And it hadn't even occurred to me that Hannibal might somehow be the cause of the wound but also the reason Jack survives it... That's a really interesting thought and would be a bonkers reflection of flipping the coin with Bella.

It sounds semi-impossible logistically, but I agree, I think you might be onto something, because that's such a neat bookend for "saving" Bella. When Hannibal saved Bella, it was also against her wishes, and I wonder how he'll make Jack likewise wish that he'd died?
posted by rue72 at 9:57 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think they are going to uncover some Bedelia-related information that they can't just ignore as they are wont to do, and this leads to the thing that uncovers a thing.

I think Hannibal has Alana picked out as the sacrificial animal and he will try to get Will to participate in her sacrifice.

They keep saying Caroline is going to "slay" us in ep11, that makes me think someone's heart is going to be subjected to a literal attempted eating.
posted by tel3path at 9:58 AM on April 24, 2014

Short clip from this week's episode. Dark!Will is perhaps looking more likely?

I love Margot. "What's your private carnage?" No idea why she talks like she's in a teen drama, but it's fantastic.
posted by rue72 at 10:04 AM on April 24, 2014

rue72, I think you're on to something. I am actually thinking that it might be Alana that Hannibal gets to do something terrible that she doesn't realise is terrible until she's committed to going through with it, since that's the path he's been leading her down all this time.

What if Will is going to be faced with the choice of either somehow confessing to spare Alana from being incriminated, or doing something terrible himself.
posted by tel3path at 10:04 AM on April 24, 2014

Wait, it'll be consistent with game theory - Alana and Will are going to be placed in a Prisoner's Dilemma against each other, but explicitly this time.
posted by tel3path at 10:14 AM on April 24, 2014

What if Will is going to be faced with the choice of either somehow confessing to spare Alana from being incriminated, or doing something terrible himself.

But then if he confesses, he'll get to be the good guy. What would be the fun in that?

The horror last year was getting Will wrongfully accused, so this time, I think it'll be that Will wants to confess his guilt but nobody believes him. Also, weren't we saying a long while back that Hannibal was trying to switch places with Will? So maybe now, Will will be the free-monster-in-a-person-suit, and Hannibal will be the good-man-wrongfully-imprisoned, and Will will have to proclaim Hannibal's innocence far and wide or at least seem to pity him, and Hannibal will be free to shoot venom at Will from within his little cage (or at least mirror Good!Will back at him, which would be hilarious). Weird, but interesting.

I don't really know that Hannibal could get Alana to do anything extraordinary. I don't think that she'd be easily swayed into doing the "wrong" thing for the "right" reasons, because it's not really like her to sacrifice *herself* in that way.
posted by rue72 at 10:18 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

New post-mortem, this one with Fuller himself.
posted by sparkletone at 10:24 AM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man, I hope we don't get dark!Will.

Man, I hope not.

But you could be oh so depressingly right.

WOULD YOU DO THAT TO US, SHOW?

SHOW, WOULD YOU DO THAT TO US?
posted by tel3path at 10:34 AM on April 24, 2014

But Will can't really proclaim Hannibal's "innocence", can he? He knows Hannibal did it, for any value of "it", up to now. At most he'll be able to claim that on one occasion, Hannibal did, but not it.
posted by tel3path at 10:35 AM on April 24, 2014

I think we're gonna get Hannibal-on-the-run though, not in a little cage.
posted by tel3path at 10:37 AM on April 24, 2014

Behind the scenes of ‘Silence of the Lambs’
posted by homunculus at 12:22 PM on April 24, 2014

This week's Matter of Taste, which I might not get to until tomorrow or maybe even this weekend, but I... kind of can't wait to hear them freak out over the turducken.

"Sweet mother of god, I’m not gonna make it through this show." -- Mark Watches S1E06.
posted by sparkletone at 12:30 PM on April 24, 2014

Okay look. The paradigm in s1 was that will was going to empath hannibal out and put him behind bars. The only question was how much damage would be done and how high the body count in the meantime.

What happened was hannibal put will behind bars.

The paradigm this season is will is going to manipulate hannibal and take him down. If hannibal manipulates will and takes him down that's already been done.

We are also all assuming that will is building up to slaughtering someone and that, from being someone who can't pull the trigger, he's become someone who possibly can't stop himself from pulling the trigger. We basically assume it's a given that Will is gonna be more of a killer at the end of this season than he was at the beginning.

What if it doesn't turn out that way? What if Will gets out of his state of illusion and realizes that he can't shoot his way out of this one and actually does something gracious and/or nonviolent that's totally unexpected?
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on April 24, 2014

Or, what if he does something he thinks is gracious or nonviolent and the effects are as bad or worse than if he had killed people. Like maybe he shows kindness to someone out of attachment or thinking they're innocent and big disaster ensues as a direct result of that.
posted by tel3path at 1:25 PM on April 24, 2014

Saw the preview, of course he's wearing blue this week.

Hanni in blue but his tie has some red in it.

Margot's double pinstripes kinda look like prison bars, huh.
posted by tel3path at 1:47 PM on April 24, 2014

To break the tension til tomorrow here's me with an actual sword
posted by The Whelk at 3:16 PM on April 24, 2014

It's just harder without teasers to get a sense of what the videos are (is he just reading the blog posts, or is it him watching the show in the moment, etc). Not a big deal. I've blown 99c and more on sillier things!

The videos are Mark watching the episodes. So you can watch the episodes along with him and have him react to the show as it goes. He, obviously, really gets into it.

I watched a few of his Buffy vids, including The Gift at the end of season five. That video, I just watched without even running the episode at the same time. And it still made me tear up. Just watching him watching The Gift. Ugh.
posted by crossoverman at 3:42 PM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I watched a few of his Buffy vids, including The Gift at the end of season five. That video, I just watched without even running the episode at the same time. And it still made me tear up. Just watching him watching The Gift. Ugh.

I think I'd have much the same reaction.
posted by sparkletone at 3:54 PM on April 24, 2014

No part of me thinks Miriam helped Hannibal. He does not strike me as someone who works with assistants, and, really, that's just a brainwashing too far.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:55 PM on April 24, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, other than the obvious, shooting Chilton. That helped Hannibal, sure.

But I believe during her imprisonment she was, well, imprisoned. Not learning a trade.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:56 PM on April 24, 2014 [2 favorites]

Who thinks it's safe for Will to confide in Margot?

It would be nice if he could trust anyone...
posted by tel3path at 7:30 AM on April 25, 2014

Holy shit, check out this gifset comparing Will shooting Hobbs to Will almost shooting that social worker. A changed man indeed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:14 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think it's safe for Will to confide in Margot in the sense that she's not going to actively attempt to harm him or violate his trust in her...

But I don't think it's going to end well for anyone because, well, that's now how this show rolls.
posted by sparkletone at 8:44 AM on April 25, 2014

I know what the best thing about tonight's episode will be: No one will be sewn inside a horse. That is the best thing.
posted by sparkletone at 8:48 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

showbiz_liz - dead eyes.
posted by tel3path at 9:01 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think the best thing about my life after taking up Hannibal is: all of it. There is no part of my life that is not better than Will Graham's.
posted by tel3path at 9:02 AM on April 25, 2014

showbiz_liz, you could be on to something there. Didn't Will say in his latest therapy session "I prefer sins of omission"?
posted by tel3path at 9:03 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think the best thing about my life after taking up Hannibal is: all of it. There is no part of my life that is not better than Will Graham's.

How many adorable dogs do you have though?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:15 AM on April 25, 2014

I have two cats, but one's quite standoffish.
posted by tel3path at 9:37 AM on April 25, 2014

Once Hannibal is found guilty, I'm wondering what Will can successfully sue for.

He could certainly sue Hannibal for malpractice.

He could maybe sue Chilton/the BSHCI for negligent hiring of a serial killer. Interestingly, though, this isn't a sure thing, because although I assume Chilton was really stupid in his hiring decisions, it's also possible he was legitimately fooled.

Chilton asserted that Will was a psychopath during his trial, but in the same breath acknowledged that Will had never been diagnosed with anything. Since Chilton was trying to diagnose Will but Will refused to comply with the testing, I'm pretty sure we could call that one a draw, and not sue.

I don't know if he could sue Chilton for malpractice because interestingly, I'm not sure that Chilton ever acted unethically towards Will except for the unauthorised recording - which he ultimately used in Will's favour. It's the fact of the incarceration itself, and the fact of being treated as criminally insane, that constituted Will's maltreatment, but Chilton didn't add to this basic maltreatment nor is it his fault Will was incarcerated to begin with.

So curiously, Chilton is emerging as one of the less suable characters in the cast. As unprincipled as he is, he's generally acted reasonably and in accordance with his changing knowledge state throughout S2.

In Alana's case, I am guessing there could be an argument for malpractice through conflict of interest, which was the cause of her refusal to consider alternative diagnoses or taking Will's accusations seriously. Also, failure to report the emergence of serious new symptoms (the auditory hallucinations during the kissing scene). Also, declaration of some nonspecific form of instability/insanity arising from his empathy "disorder" despite no attempt, ever, by anyone, to subject him to any form of diagnostic testing.

Of course, there's conflict of interest, and there's rallying round. Beverly, eventually, rallied round, and did more on her colleague's behalf by investigating further than usual. I think that colleagues should do that for each other, and if Alana hadn't been the one to do his fitness testing it's possible nobody would have spotted the encephalitis; at that moment, Alana's eagerness to extend herself for a friend/colleague saved his life, at that point. I just wish she would have done it in the context of rallying round instead of its being an addition to an impartial examination by someone who wasn't a friend. That's something to sue the BAU for, I think.

I also think that Team Sassy Science shouldn't have been the ones to process Will for evidence, despite that Bev did probably do the best possible job of it.

He could maybe sue the BAU for negligent hiring of a serial killer, and I hope he does so.

He should be able to sue Jack for traumatising the snot out of him day after day. I mean even now that Jack is notionally on board with suspecting Hannibal, that doesn't stop him from subjecting Will to the trauma of further investigative demands, including forcing him to interact with Hannibal and the other people who traumatised him in the first place.

I hope Will is making a note of every instance of conflict of interest, bad investigative practice, or other unethical behaviour, so he can sue for that. Like I hope he finds out that the person who interrogated Hannibal was Hannibal's girlfriend, and also that the person who interrogated Chilton was also Hannibal's girlfriend.

If he finds out about the way the fingerprint evidence got rationalised away I hope he sues the BAU for some form of negligence.

And also for using the victim of a crime to investigate ("investigate" with no substantive support) the suspect regardless of retraumatization; and making the "investigation" consist of forcing the victim to make nice at the dinner table with the alleged cannibal perpetrator and all kinds of stuff like that.

I kinda have a feeling that Will is going to be some combination of too nice and too traumatised to do any suing, but maybe not. Boat motor repairs don't pay an awful lot.
posted by tel3path at 10:48 AM on April 25, 2014

Anyway time to submerge I guess [/sploop]
posted by tel3path at 10:51 AM on April 25, 2014

What if it goes like this:

-Will tells Margot about how he tried to kill Hannibal, and why
-Margot is like "hmm" and asks Hannibal to kill Mason
-Will has a chance to prevent this, but chooses not to!

After watching the short clip linked above I would guess that if Margot talks more about Mason then that's going to make Will want to kill Mason himself.

Will felt righteous killing Garrett Jacob Hobbs, he wishes he killed Hannibal in Minnesota, he says not killing Clark was a mistake. He is becoming a vigilante.

Oh shit. I'm going even more crazy. Attacking/killing Mason and framing Hannibal for it would be the most delicious irony ever.
posted by mountmccabe at 10:54 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

It would be if it weren't likely what Hannibal has in mind...

Oh I forgot I'm underwater now [glub/]
posted by tel3path at 11:13 AM on April 25, 2014

Also, if Will is actually just going to murder someone, why not murder Hannibal? Why murder other people, when Hannibal is sitting right there? I mean, sucks to be Margot, but frankly, Will has his own problems right now.

Anyway, I think there's a big difference between killing someone and murdering someone, and Will has killed (GJH) but he's never murdered anyone (thanks to Hannibal stopping him from shooting Clark!).

I kinda have a feeling that Will is going to be some combination of too nice and too traumatised to do any suing, but maybe not. Boat motor repairs don't pay an awful lot.

I think he can sue the FBI for wrongful termination, lost wages, etc. If they are legally able to, I think they would give him a settlement just to keep things quiet. I think he can also sue Hannibal for malpractice having to do with his encephalitis. Maybe he'd have a personal injury case against Hannibal, too, because of the experimentation, but I'm not sure what his damages could even be from that because he didn't have any medical bills from it? He was held in the BSHCI awaiting trail, which is perfectly legal as far as I know (?), so I don't think there's anything to do there aside from lodging complaints against various people.

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer, there might be other stuff, or maybe none of that would work. Honestly, I think he should just hassle the FBI to get him his teaching job back instead of taking a payout, and I think he should try to go after Hannibal relatively soon because Hannibal has plenty of money and there's no sense waiting until it's eaten up in legal fees and things! But obviously that's not going to happen.
posted by rue72 at 11:39 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

David Slade posted another picture of Mason. Looks like he'll be spending some time in Hannibal's office...
posted by sparkletone at 11:57 AM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Will has no reason to want to kill Mason because, noxious as Mason is, he isn't a serial killer. Will has no reason to even know Mason exists. As far as Will knows the Vergers are just other patients with the misfortune to have drawn Hannibal as their therapist.

As I noted if Margot keeps talking, then Will will have more than enough information to know that Mason is a bad guy. And maybe it doesn't take a serial killer to trigger Will's growing vigilantism. Yes, everyone we've seen him kill/almost kill has been a serial killer but they've also been bad people.

I don't think Will would just go out and kill Mason, but he might investigate Margot's claims and try to see what kind of a person Mason is.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:35 PM on April 25, 2014

Also, if Will is actually just going to murder someone, why not murder Hannibal? Why murder other people, when Hannibal is sitting right there? I mean, sucks to be Margot, but frankly, Will has his own problems right now.

Bryan Fuller talked about why Will is not going to just up and kill Hannibal in the walkthrough to episode 7. Will wants to know why he has been treated like he has.

Will probably does want to kill Hannibal but he wants it to be right. And would probably be OK with Hannibal being arrested/exposed.

Also Hannibal isn't a problem for Will anymore. Will's out of jail, Jack's starting to see his side. Will is on the attack, resuming his therapy with Hannibal and being aggressive. They're going for drives together again. Will knows Hannibal is dangerous and is no longer afraid.

Anyway, I think there's a big difference between killing someone and murdering someone, and Will has killed (GJH) but he's never murdered anyone (thanks to Hannibal stopping him from shooting Clark!).

You are correct, but Will laments that. In the short clip above Will says not killing Clark was a mistake.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:42 PM on April 25, 2014

I think Hannibal stopped him because it was just too soon. He needs to take a few more steps down Murder Lane before he can just start capping bad guys and feel ok with it. And I think a good next step would be to see if he tries to prevent a 'justified' murder.

You think that he is capable of just murdering people and feeling OK with that?

I think that he purposefully waited until he was under surveillance and Gideon could hear him before telling Brown that he wanted Hannibal dead as a way of tipping people off (because it would have made more sense, otherwise, to just tell Brown in the disconnected-from-surveillance-at-the-time therapy room), and I also give Will somewhat of a free pass on that because Brown was freaking *dangerous* (to Will) and he already knew that if he just told people there was a killer on the loose they'd just dismiss him, so he had to have Brown caught in the act. I think that Hannibal being killed was more a risk he was (very, very) willing to take, rather than it being a straight up murder attempt. He also wasn't just completely fine with it, he was hallucinating turning into the elk and the sink overflowing with blood and all kinds of pretty horrible stuff. But I could be being way too easy on Will, for sure.

Clark, I think is different, in that Will really *shouldn't* have pulled the trigger, that would have been straight up murder. I think he's overestimating how OK he would have been with that, too, but regardless, I think it's a huge deal that he pulled the trigger on the man. He really needs to stick to solely homicides, when there's a living victim around he starts "empathizing" with the victim instead of the killer and starts obsessing over them -- something similar as with Peter happened with Abigail, too. (And maybe that's going to happen with Margot, too, but I think she's got first dibs on her brother).

It was strange to me that he stood there so long pointing the gun at Clark, with a perfectly blank face, listening to Hannibal talk. I have no doubt he wanted to murder Clark on Peter's behalf anyway, but I wonder if he also wanted to shoot him because Hannibal was telling him not to. Like, showing Hannibal who's boss, sort of? "I'm the one with the gun here, fucker." Of course, then Hannibal just stopped the hammer and took the gun away, because he's a Wizard. On the other hand, maybe Hannibal really did come close to talking him out of it, I don't know.

I don't think Will would just go out and kill Mason, but he might investigate Margot's claims and try to see what kind of a person Mason is.

He might help Margot kill Mason. He wanted to kill Clark on Peter's behalf, so maybe he'll want to help Margot kill Mason on her own behalf.
posted by rue72 at 12:43 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Here is my prediction of the plan for the rest of the season. No need for spoiler tags because it is all wrong wrong wrong.

Ep 9
Killer of the week.
Will shoots him, either somewhat unecessarily, just after he does something bad or just BEFORE he has a chance to do something bad.
Will feels great and decides that this is him. He is a vigilante.
Margot mentions that her brother is awful.

Ep 10
We see how awful Mason is.
Spoiler: really awful.
Also Mason gets an appointment with Dr. Lecter.

Ep 11
Turns out the appointment wasn't real.
Hannibal is out, alone.
Mason shows up for his appointment and Will straight up art murders him.
Hannibal comes home and is like, damn this is some good art murder.
Then the cops come in.

Ep 12
Hannibal is in jail.
Chilton laughs so hard he starts crying.
Alana is not happy; this is all Will's fault.
Jack and Team Sassy Science are looking around Hannibal's home.
They find a bullet and do forensics. It is from Beverly's gun.
They get a warrant.
Alana does not believe it and goes to tell Hannibal.
Hannibal realizes that they are going to find his murder basement and he will be done for.
She frees him, or gives him something that he uses to free himself.
Hannibal knocks her out (again) and murders some police, not necessarily in that order.

Episode 13
Hannibal goes home to set his booby traps and grab his go bag.
His go bag is full of his favorite livers and kidneys.
He finds police there guarding the front door; he kills them.
He goes into the kitchen and sees Jack.
They have a two-minute fight.
Hannibal wins and is going to leave and is confronted by Alana with a gun.
Hannibal says don't shoot, Jack is behind this door and bleeding bad. Only I can save him!
Alana puts down her gun, helps open the door and they start saving Jack.
Hannibal knocks her out again and runs.

Problems:
This isn't Will luring Hannibal in.
Will probably won't have a fully developed art murder style yet.
I don't have anything for Will to do in episodes 12 or 13.

Also Mason dies.
But I'm OK with that.
They could set up any number of other people to take the position of Mason from Hannibal the book/movie.
-Margot, having a change of heart and thinking Hannibal killed her brother.
-Alana Bloom!
-Surprise Abel Gideon is alive!
-A disgraced Chilton!
-Surprise Abigail Hobbs is alive!
posted by mountmccabe at 12:51 PM on April 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

Also Hannibal isn't a problem for Will anymore. Will's out of jail, Jack's starting to see his side. Will is on the attack, resuming his therapy with Hannibal and being aggressive. They're going for drives together again. Will knows Hannibal is dangerous and is no longer afraid.

Hannibal is definitely a problem! The dude was standing there stroking Will's face, telling him he's becoming a beautiful new murder butterfly. Will is on the offense and angry right now, but if he's not afraid then he's kidding himself. I think he might assume he's doomed already so it doesn't matter what he does now, but if that's the case, I think he's also kidding himself about that.

Also, if Will doesn't stop Hannibal, nobody will. Even the deal he made with Jack requires him to hook Hannibal before Jack will "land" him. (As someone who enjoys negotiation, that deal bugs the hell out of me. Talk about not going on the offensive, Will! But anyway). So Hannibal's his problem regardless of how he feels personally about the man.

You are correct, but Will laments that. In the short clip above Will says not killing Clark was a mistake.

He says that letting Hannibal stop him was the mistake -- I think he's again telling Hannibal to back off, more than he's saying anything about Clark. Though I think he did honestly want to murder Clark when they were in that barn.

Turns out the appointment wasn't real.
Hannibal is out, alone.
Mason shows up for his appointment and Will straight up art murders him.
Hannibal comes home and is like, damn this is some good art murder.
Then the cops come in.

My problem with this is that Mason is *Margot's* to deal with. You know how Hannibal was telling her not to kill Mason until she can get away with it? Maybe she can get away with it by framing Hannibal? Maybe how Will can help her is by setting up a convincing frame job?
posted by rue72 at 12:56 PM on April 25, 2014

I doubt Fuller is going to let anyone murder Mason because he is straight up just too interesting a character the way his fate plays out in the book to waste that way. It's retconned in Hannibal but the implication is that all the while Red Dragon and SOTL have been playing out Mason has been pulling strings, breeding pigs, schmoozing up various law enforcement and political folks, and generally making an ass of himself in the background. I tend to think Fuller is going to want to play with that.
posted by localroger at 1:05 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I doubt Fuller is going to let anyone murder Mason because he is straight up just too interesting a character the way his fate plays out in the book to waste that way.

Kill, no. But in the movie, he was maimed, right?

What if Will has a chance to kill him (or allow him to be killed), and he prevents that but allows him to be maimed?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:16 PM on April 25, 2014

Also I almost put "Will straight up art mangles Mason" but the driving force for me was that Will wants to kill again in righteousness. Not killing Mason would not scratch that itch.

But what made Mason stick out was what he did, not who he was, really. There are a lot of interesting characters that could be pulling pigs and breeding strings. Though probably not most of my list.

[Incidentally I think when/if Will successfully murders someone he is going to feel awful/retire/become more of a recluse. If he had been successful at murdering Hannibal via Matthew Brown or murdering Clark he would be in a very different frame of mind. But he didn't, so he feels the power of almost murdering people without the remorse of actually killing them].
posted by mountmccabe at 1:16 PM on April 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

If he had been successful at murdering Hannibal via Matthew Brown or murdering Clark he would be in a very different frame of mind. But he didn't, so he feels the power of almost murdering people without the remorse of actually killing them.

"It would have been more therapeutic if you had killed him," eh?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:18 PM on April 25, 2014

I mean, yes, Hannibal is definitely a problem. But he's not an immediate problem that would require an immediate action such as a quick murder. Will does have problems and they do include Hannibal but they include taking care of Hannibal the way Hannibal acts: carefully and methodically first, brutally later.

True, true. I don't think he wants or is going to try to just straight up murder Hannibal, let alone anytime soon. But I also think that it would be so anticlimactic for Will to transform into a Dark!Butterfly by just randomly taking care of somebody else's problem (for example, by killing Mason for Margot, especially since that would probably just upset the hell out of Margot).

I think he will be framing Hannibal somehow, though. Hannibal framed him, it's only fair. And apparently, frame jobs are the only way anybody gets charged with anything in this town.

I doubt Fuller is going to let anyone murder Mason because he is straight up just too interesting a character the way his fate plays out in the book to waste that way. It's retconned in Hannibal but the implication is that all the while Red Dragon and SOTL have been playing out Mason has been pulling strings, breeding pigs, schmoozing up various law enforcement and political folks, and generally making an ass of himself in the background. I tend to think Fuller is going to want to play with that.

Maybe, though I think that Margot is the more interesting character of the two, especially in terms of how she fits into the cast as a whole. They don't really need yet another disgusting killer in the mix, I think, but it's nice to have someone else on the knife's edge and who knows truths she's struggling to do anything about.

But he didn't, so he feels the power of almost murdering people without the remorse of actually killing them

Doesn't that make him feel *powerless* though? I think you're absolutely right that he wants to feel like a righteous man again, and I think he wants to feel powerful again, so he wants to kill again (because he felt that way when he killed GJH). But I think that he's not making the distinction between killing and murder, and not taking it enough into account that he'd feel different after a murder than he did after a killing (and maybe misremembering how awful he felt after GJH, too. He might be concentrating on what made him feel good about it now, but he was pretty messed up at the time).
posted by rue72 at 1:20 PM on April 25, 2014

Sure Margot is a more interesting character than Mason -- that's true in Hannibal too -- but Mason is important because he's part of the furniture. From the moment Hannibal escapes at the end of SOTL he has to worry more about Mason than the FBI, because Mason has vast resources, a single purpose, and no scruples about due process or brutality. In order for Mason to become that force he has to perfectly hate Hannibal, a hatred driven as much by what Hannibal did to him as by the nonchalant near-indifference with which he did it. Hannibal has made Mason suffer for his amusement, and Mason goddamn well wants to return the favor.

There is no place for Will in that dynamic. None at all. In fact, in the books Will never meets either of the Vergers at all. Unless Will rides in on his white stallion post-SOTL to collect Hannibal, he will never have any reason to. Frankly the Vergers' problems are small beer compared to what Will has been dealing with, and Mason only becomes worthy of being mentionable due to the aforementioned raging billion dollar virtual hardon he nurses to see Hannibal brought down.
posted by localroger at 1:35 PM on April 25, 2014

Okay i am underwater don't mind my bubbles

But

Remember what Ed Norton said in the movie red Dragon "how did you catch him" "i let him kill me"

The movie i think is the first to develop the idea that will and lecter knew each other at all/even met more than once, and this series is expanding on that

I think they may also expand on the "i let him kill me" idea

It's consistent with the counterintuitive and Christian theme that evil can be defeated by lucid self sacrifice.

So, i think the paradigm shift is gonna be: we've spent most of the season meebling around wondering how will gets revenge and it's now escalated to the point where all we're wondering is who when and how will is going to kill, and exactly how dark he is going to go, not whether.

I think that possibly, and i have said this before, what will does to catch hannibal isn't killing him, framing him, or killing someone else, but letting hannibal kill him

He probably nicks mason's state of the art pervecam equipment, films it, and beams it to all manner of jumbotrons in the greater baltimore area, being sure to decorate the set to make sure hannibal looks like the maximally guilty bad guy he is. Or somehow, is all flamboyantly like "fine, you wanted me to be your sacrificial lamb to the great god hanni, well, here's exactly what you wanted in imax format, just so i'm totally making the situation clear here (you useless assholes)."
posted by tel3path at 2:10 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

From the moment Hannibal escapes at the end of SOTL he has to worry more about Mason than the FBI, because Mason has vast resources, a single purpose, and no scruples about due process or brutality. In order for Mason to become that force he has to perfectly hate Hannibal, a hatred driven as much by what Hannibal did to him as by the nonchalant near-indifference with which he did it. Hannibal has made Mason suffer for his amusement, and Mason goddamn well wants to return the favor.

I don't think that dynamic would be enough to drive a TV show (though it might work as a smaller subplot), because frankly, there's no reason to care if Hannibal kills Mason or Mason kills Hannibal or they kill each other -- there's nobody to root for or fear for in that dynamic, so there's no suspense.

Hannibal/Will's plot works, in my opinion, because I think that the show has successfully sold that his soul is at stake -- but for viewers who already think he's morally compromised, even that plot already feels slack and suspense-less. That problem of "what are the stakes?" would be turned up to eleven in a Hannibal/Mason conflict.

If they were to try to use jeopardy instead of stakes to drive a Hannibal/Mason plot, I guess it *could* work -- except that, in a show called "Hannibal," it would be pretty tough to sell that Hannibal's life is actually in jeopardy. That's already a problem in the Jack subplot going on now, I think, where they haven't introduced real stakes for him, and are relying on the idea that his life is in jeopardy (via the fight), but even that is pretty unconvincing since he's a main and a canon character. Imagine if he were as "safe" as Hannibal is, that storyline would have no legs at all.

I think that possibly, and i have said this before, what will does to catch hannibal isn't killing him, framing him, or killing someone else, but letting hannibal kill him

But Hannibal doesn't *want* to murder Will, he wants him to lose his soul. So "killing" Will would actually mean showing Will lose his soul, in that scenario, wouldn't it?
posted by rue72 at 2:14 PM on April 25, 2014

I desperately want Will to frame Hannibal. That would be amazing. I'm thinking Mason's face is going to get fed to Will's dogs, but how precisely I'm not sure.

I dunno, y'all, I'm not on a level to theorize, I'm just here for the squee and the flail.

Although! I did ask my dad about the gun thing-- and yes, totally possible. With a single-action revolver, which is apparently a bit more old school. A double-action revolver, you don't actually need to pull the hammer back to fire. And that's all I've ever shot, thus my confusion.

I just don't have political debates with my dad anymore. I'll never own a gun myself, but I'm the anti-fighty in my family, and I've brought him around to gay marriage and reproductive rights, I'm just not gonna die on that hill with him.
posted by dogheart at 2:18 PM on April 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

I'm thinking Mason's face is going to get fed to Will's dogs, but how precisely I'm not sure.

I can't decide if that counts as something bad happening to Will's dogs or not... Either way, that would definitely make Will regret not shooting Hannibal in the face that one time.
posted by sparkletone at 2:22 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

The dogs are just having a little snack!
posted by The Whelk at 2:24 PM on April 25, 2014

Shit, they already ate the people sausage, Mason's face is probably a step up.
posted by dogheart at 2:25 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Now I'm sitting here wondering what dish Hannibal would make if he wanted to literally eat someone's face. I don't think the "veal cheek" made of Abigail would've come from her actual head for some reason?
posted by sparkletone at 2:27 PM on April 25, 2014

I've past speculating on this show, if everybody pulls off a rubber mask and is revealed to be Patrick McGoonian I'd just rate a "huh"
posted by The Whelk at 2:30 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

And [glub/] may i remind you that we just saw hanni petting a lamb.

Jesus, lamb of God, anyone.

And when we say lamb of God we don't mean oh the cute little sheepie bye, we mean the sacrificial animal that you had to slaughter on the sabbath and you had to eat it ALL, every scrap, and if you couldn't manage every bite you had to smear it on the lintels so that the angel of death would pass over your home.

That lamb of God. Jesus substituted Himself for the animal sacrifice.
posted by tel3path at 2:31 PM on April 25, 2014

It's consistent with the counterintuitive and Christian theme that evil can be defeated by lucid self sacrifice.

I think that the "self" that Will is fixing to sacrifice is his actual *self,* not his body.

Although! I did ask my dad about the gun thing-- and yes, totally possible. With a single-action revolver, which is apparently a bit more old school.

Thanks for asking, dogheart! I wonder how whoever wrote the script knew about that move? I'm sure basically nobody in the real world would disarm someone that way -- would they?!

Shit, they already ate the people sausage, Mason's face is probably a step up.

Eww. Can't they just give it to his eel or his pigs or something? If the dogs eat it, there is no way for anybody to get doggie kisses from them ever again, that's vile. And how to even bring the face over to Will's, in a ziplock? *shudder*
posted by rue72 at 2:32 PM on April 25, 2014

Hanni will want to kill will if he gets romantically scorned. That's what the red dragon encounter is going to have meant as a result of this story.

I think hannibal maybe is going to think will is cheating him both romantically and homicidally with margot and that could be the ugly breakup.
posted by tel3path at 2:37 PM on April 25, 2014

I'm sure basically nobody in the real world would disarm someone that way -- would they?!

Maybe if you were the Devil Himself, with superhuman reflexes, but on the whole, I think not. (Also that move should have at least broken skin, with the hammer being pointed to strike the cartridge, instead of a hammer bar-- again, more old school. Which makes me wonder where that gun came from. A relic of Will's cop phase?)

And how to even bring the face over to Will's, in a ziplock?

Bring Mason over to Will's? I have no actual clue.
posted by dogheart at 2:40 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder how whoever wrote the script knew about that move? I'm sure basically nobody in the real world would disarm someone that way -- would they?!

I assume they've seen it/read about it in the same stuff I have, though specific examples are escaping me at the moment. It's been in other stuff/actually does happen in real life though.
posted by sparkletone at 2:42 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

No, Tupperware.

I do think that since will pointed the gun with hannibal in the room his motives can't have been unmixed. I do think he was teetering on the brink but i also think he anticipated that hannibal would want to save themselves for that special day, and would try to stop him. Not saying he wasn't really homicidal, only that if he'd been homicidal enough he could have gone through with it.
posted by tel3path at 2:45 PM on April 25, 2014

Yeah, it seemed really last-ditch effort to me, I dunno.

I'm going to have to ask more about this, and he's gonna make me shoot at things off his back deck, I can see it coming already.
posted by dogheart at 2:47 PM on April 25, 2014

"I dunno, y'all, I'm not on a level to theorize, I'm just here for the squee and the flail."

To me, the theory, and the squee, and the flail are the fandom trinity, all are one.

Alana may wake up and start talking about the relationship, which obviously is boring. as for me, i would not be anywhere near so patient and I would wake the guy up with fervent questions about the flower symbolism and what he has planned for the dénouement.

I don't understand why I'm not covered in guys.
posted by tel3path at 2:53 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

For Hannibal, isn't the point of feeding people human flesh to make them complicit? So I think that he would be most likely to feed Mason's face to a person. No reason to waste it on an animal, I don't think? As long as Hannibal doesn't put a tube down Mason's disfigured throat and shove his own face into his belly, Mason would probably be getting off easy.

But maybe this is all me just trying to make up reasons why Will's dogs don't have to be part of that horror show, because OMG, they're so cute! Plus, my only ship is Winston/Applesauce, so I don't want Winston to, uhhhh, get a "taste for human flesh" or anything.

It's been in other stuff/actually does happen in real life though.

Whoa, really?! Guns scare me, so I don't like them being in the house and have never even shot one -- completely ignorant about them, frankly. I did find it a tad creepy that Will dug out some old handgun from his house and brought it along with him to "save" Peter, but I guess it makes sense, since he thought he'd be confronting one or more homicidal people.

Not saying he wasn't really homicidal, only that if he'd been homicidal enough he could have gone through with it.

I think that Hannibal must have played a major part in him pulling the trigger, because when he came striding into the barn with the gun up, he was coming straight from talking to Peter and his anger on Peter's behalf (as opposed to his anger at Hannibal that he was projecting onto Peter/Clark) was going to be at its peak then.

Also, when Clark said, "Peter's confused," Will made this weird theatrical face and was like, "I'm not." What was *that*? Will comes out with these random-yet-showy mannerisms and ways of speaking like that from time to time, and honestly, I can't tell if we're supposed to think that Will is doing that on purpose or not.
posted by rue72 at 2:59 PM on April 25, 2014

Fun new interview with Janice Poon.

Whoa, really?!

I don't like guns either and would never own one, but yep really! Here's a real life instance of someone doing basically what Hannibal did.
posted by sparkletone at 3:02 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Holy shit!

Thank you, sparkletone, you've saved me an afternoon of cordite and dodging gun control debate.
posted by dogheart at 3:07 PM on April 25, 2014

And how to even bring the face over to Will's, in a ziplock?

When he escapes in SOTL he wears a guard's face as a mask.

SRSLY Lecter reminds Mason in Hannibal (taunting this powerful stalker is part of his ongoing entertainment) that while the starving doggies Mason was keeping together in a cage to see when they'd start eating one another did partake, Mason was so hopped up on the drugs Lecter fed him that he willingly ate a fair amount of his own face.
posted by localroger at 3:13 PM on April 25, 2014

Gah this is all very fun. I really enjoy these discussions, folks. Thank you.

But I must slip away, too. I am at the opera tonight and will miss the show. We may not be able to watch until Sunday afternoon.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:16 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Everybody: if you have Twitter, tweet something with a #hannibal hashtag while the show is airing. It affects the Nielsen ratings, amazingly enough! I personally plan to watch the show later on nbc.com (which, stupidly, does NOT affect the Nielsens), but I'm gonna tweet something during the show, anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:26 PM on April 25, 2014

I am at the opera tonight and will miss the show.

This is a sufficiently Fancy™ reason for missing the show.
posted by sparkletone at 4:45 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

It affects the Nielsen ratings, amazingly enough! I personally plan to watch the show later on nbc.com (which, stupidly, does NOT affect the Nielsens)

Actually, watching on NBC.com (and I think hulu too?) does affect ratings. It counts as a DVR viewing, I believe. The hashtag thing helps too.

Nielsen ratings are dumb and out-dated (yet still very important) but they have made some small nods to modernity.
posted by sparkletone at 4:48 PM on April 25, 2014

PS. I forget what the window for the hashtag affecting ratings is. I think it's something like 2-3 hours on either side of the show airing, in addition to while it actually airs of course.
posted by sparkletone at 4:51 PM on April 25, 2014

I am at the opera tonight and will miss the show.

This is a sufficiently Fancy™ reason for missing the show.

Just don't gush over the well dressed blonde gentleman at the intermission
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, and before I forget: the nbc.com/hulu viewings only count within 72 hours. Since I watch a stream during the live airings, I try to watch on nbc.com at least once before the weekend's done.
posted by sparkletone at 4:58 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

While we are waiting for the show to start I'm just going to suggest that we admire the Firefly-style Hannibal Opening via last year's mefi credit mashup thread.
posted by localroger at 5:11 PM on April 25, 2014

Hey, what's everyone doing for dinner? I'm attempting sushi for the first time, which should be fun.
posted by dogheart at 5:37 PM on April 25, 2014

I had a biscuit egg and bacon sandwhich with grits and fried pickles ( the size of LOGS) for lunch so I am having ....champagne in a can for dinner.
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on April 25, 2014

Nothing fancy, just pizza (pepperoni, mushrooms and bacon from one of the better local places). Of course, as is standard, the estimated delivery time is.... right when Hannibal starts.

(that happens to me a lot)
posted by sparkletone at 5:49 PM on April 25, 2014

I'm thinking of doing a tri-tip roast with mashed potatoes, corn on the cob, & pan-wilted spinach & arugula.
posted by echolalia67 at 5:57 PM on April 25, 2014

Baked ziti and birthday cake (for my dad).
posted by rue72 at 6:00 PM on April 25, 2014

I wonder if they're going to have Green Week stuff on Hannibal; Grimm just shoehorned in a scene about recycling.
posted by Small Dollar at 6:16 PM on April 25, 2014

Maybe the killer who made himself a bear costume this week will tell us only we can prevent forest fires...
posted by sparkletone at 6:24 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

In many ways Hannibal is the ultimate recycler.
posted by The Whelk at 6:26 PM on April 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I made a little Hammibal
posted by The Whelk at 6:43 PM on April 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

I made a little Hammibal

Amazing.

ALSO BRYAN FULLER JUST USED THE HASHTAG "WILLDIGO." DARK!WILL MIGHT BE HAPPENING. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.
posted by sparkletone at 6:52 PM on April 25, 2014

A MAN WHO WANTS TO BE AN ANIMAL
posted by The Whelk at 6:55 PM on April 25, 2014

Hannibal: ZERO TO WHAT THE FUCK IN UNDER SIXTY SECONDS.
posted by sparkletone at 7:03 PM on April 25, 2014

Pizza arrived 1) early 2) right as previously ons started lulz.
posted by sparkletone at 7:05 PM on April 25, 2014

Might he become a Chew-pacabra?
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:09 PM on April 25, 2014

Jack being coy, cooking porn, monster attack, and shipping fantasia

Yeeeeep it's sixty seconds on Hannibal
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on April 25, 2014

The Whelk: "I made a little Hammibal"
I really need that on a T-shaped shirt.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:10 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Fuller is now doing DEEP CUTS into the Hannibal mythos
posted by The Whelk at 7:11 PM on April 25, 2014

I can no longer tell who is fucking with whom in these Will/Hannibal scenes.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:13 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal is so fucking turned on right now...
posted by sparkletone at 7:15 PM on April 25, 2014

The lip licking was perfect.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:16 PM on April 25, 2014

THAT HAT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:18 PM on April 25, 2014

Hannibal is being played like a harpsichord
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 PM on April 25, 2014

I ship Hannibal's hat and Jack's fedora.
posted by sparkletone at 7:18 PM on April 25, 2014

Yes. BY THAT HAT.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:19 PM on April 25, 2014

BRYAN YOU ARE NOT HELPING SHIPPER HEART RATES

Also in this apartment we kept saying "say power...you felt powerful ....saaaay it."
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on April 25, 2014

What the fuck 1970's Russian hockey team is that hat
posted by dogheart at 7:19 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's an abomination KILL IT WITH FIRE
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:21 PM on April 25, 2014

Apparently the hat was a last minute thing because it was fucking cold the day of the shoot? I'm not mad though.
posted by sparkletone at 7:22 PM on April 25, 2014

Will and Ravenstag sitting in a tree M-U-R-D-E-R-I-N-G
posted by The Whelk at 7:30 PM on April 25, 2014

So Hannibal is now setting up killing as a metaphor for sex. Somewhere I think I just heard 18 graduate masters theses explode.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:37 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

An Otherkin serial killer?
posted by Small Dollar at 7:38 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well nobody ever suspects an osteologist.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:39 PM on April 25, 2014

Aw it is Doctor Lecter's School For Gifted Sociopaths
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on April 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

This is a strange take on James Gumb
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Margot just confirmed her queerness!
posted by sparkletone at 7:47 PM on April 25, 2014

Metafilter pls. You can't say you're overloaded now!

Also: Holy shit, Hannibal's look of "well goddammit" when Will brought up Bedelia!!!
posted by sparkletone at 7:53 PM on April 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

PARTS
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 PM on April 25, 2014

I was about to say this was feeling like the start of a two-parter (or some longer story) involving this animal bro, and then I looked at the clock and yeah... Guessing we're going to be waiting a week to get some resolution on this guy.
posted by sparkletone at 7:55 PM on April 25, 2014

"You are becoming, Randall."

Man, did I call the Red Dragon parallels or what?
posted by sparkletone at 7:56 PM on April 25, 2014

NOOOOOOOOBUSTER
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:56 PM on April 25, 2014

No, the pack stays intact! There are no redshirts among the dogs!
posted by gladly at 7:57 PM on April 25, 2014

GODDAMMIT, BRYAN. YOU SAID NOTHING BAD WOULD EVER HAPPEN TO THE DOGS. :( :( :(
posted by sparkletone at 7:57 PM on April 25, 2014

I do not like the final exams at Doctor Lecters School for Gifted Sociopaths.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:57 PM on April 25, 2014

NO NO NO NO
posted by dogheart at 7:58 PM on April 25, 2014

jeezus fricking christ
posted by Small Dollar at 7:59 PM on April 25, 2014

DARK WILL NOOOOOOOOOOOO.
posted by sparkletone at 8:00 PM on April 25, 2014

I cannot believe all of this is happening in one season. This is bonkers.
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:00 PM on April 25, 2014

I don't even know where to begin trying to process this.
posted by sparkletone at 8:01 PM on April 25, 2014

I'm going with booze and rocking back and forth myself
posted by dogheart at 8:03 PM on April 25, 2014

HANNIBAL COULD NIT BE PROUDER OF HIS GRAHAM CRACKER
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

WE'RE EVEN STEVEN MOTHERFUCKER YIPPEE KI-YAY
posted by localroger at 8:04 PM on April 25, 2014

Wait a minute if Will gave Hannibal the body where's the animal murder suit?
posted by localroger at 8:06 PM on April 25, 2014

That little fucking micronod in response. Goddammit, Mads.

Sepinwall seems a bit luke warm on this one.
posted by sparkletone at 8:06 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

And a B+ from AV Club.
posted by sparkletone at 8:07 PM on April 25, 2014

TRY TRY AGAIN
posted by The Whelk at 8:08 PM on April 25, 2014

I just. I didn't expect Dark!Will quite this soon.
posted by dogheart at 8:10 PM on April 25, 2014

PLEASE YOU TWO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT BEING BELOVED WHILE ONE OF YOU IS TIED UP THAT'S FINE
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

IN PROMO: JUST KEEP TENDERLY DRESSING WOUNDS THAT'S FINE
posted by The Whelk at 8:13 PM on April 25, 2014

PETER'S RAT FRIEND
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on April 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

This show is my everything. And if Hannibal's hat doesn't have its own Twitter account by morning, the fandom will have disappointed me. That is all.
posted by Stacey at 8:21 PM on April 25, 2014

I know it was a dream sequence, but I feel like we got a little hint of what Hannibal-behind-bars will be like... Hannibal in that dream was all menacing undertones and headfuckery.
posted by sparkletone at 8:25 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

GUYS

Evolution. Changing. Adapting. Advancing. Moving.

Randall Tier
posted by The Whelk at 8:38 PM on April 25, 2014

Bryan tweeted at one point about "tier" meaning "beast" in German.
posted by sparkletone at 8:52 PM on April 25, 2014

My only complaint is that there are too many spooky skinny white guys with brown hair.
posted by The Whelk at 8:53 PM on April 25, 2014

The fake Freddie Lounds just posted an interview with that sound guy whose anecdote about Jeremy Davies I posted about last week.
posted by sparkletone at 8:55 PM on April 25, 2014

FOR THE RECORD: Jack knows? Right? He has to. "Doubt" the ice fishing conversation. He totally knows.
posted by The Whelk at 9:06 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Whelk: "I made a little Hammibal"
Dr. Zira: " I really need that on a T-shaped shirt."

Me also. Such want. So need.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:07 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hammible dancing under a spider-web

SOME PIG
posted by The Whelk at 9:08 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder if they're going to have Green Week stuff on Hannibal; Grimm just shoehorned in a scene about recycling.

Pilates Wolf should do weekly PSAs. The more you know.
posted by homunculus at 9:13 PM on April 25, 2014

well if you think about Randall was recylcing
posted by The Whelk at 9:17 PM on April 25, 2014

ALSO since the opener was a DREAM, that is WILL'S PROJECTION of how he would ideally kill Lecter and get to hear WHY all this happened, in his perfect view of that Hannibal confesses to Will he did cause he loves him and wants to grow as an Art Murderer and Will trapped him using that love.

THE SAILS OF THE S.S FAKE HANNIGRAHAM ARE BEAUTIFUL AND SHINING AS THEY ROUND THE PORT OH COME HEAR THE TRUMPETS BLOW AND CANONS BLAST OH LOOK AT THE CHILDREN SINGING OH HOW THEY SHALL DANCE
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

So, uh - if you take the show's Tumblr as official, there was some Beverly in those eggs. I guess he's still got a stocked freezer.

We're definitely canonballing towards something big here, but I think this ep was kind of badly paced. Interesting to know that this Hannibal is doing the Murder Academy bit, and Will is definitely not the first pupil. I haven't read the books, but was under the impression that it wasn't a thing with book-Hannibal?

I love Margot so much.

And yeah, I think Jack knows, for sure. Except...wouldn't he be more cautious about going over to eat? Or is he believing everything except the cannibal part? If you're going to believe Will, it seems like you'd really want to believe the whole thing, not just selective parts. Except on the other other hand, there'd be no faster way to make Hannibal believe you didn't trust him than by refusing offers to dine.
posted by PussKillian at 9:30 PM on April 25, 2014

under the impression that it wasn't a thing with book-Hannibal?

Yes, and no. Strictly speaking, nah, Hannibal was never written about as someone who was Professor X to a string of other killers... But at the same time, I could see tilting your head and squinting a little at the books (at least Red Dragon and SOTL) and seeing the potential for that.

He has a correspondence with Dolarhyde and points him at Will Graham's home/family. In SOTL, he treated (and eventually killed) someone who knew Jame Gumb.

The sort of thing this version of Hannibal is pulling with other killers and what not... Doesn't feel out of line to me, even if it's not explicitly set up in previous works anywhere.
posted by sparkletone at 9:36 PM on April 25, 2014

but was under the impression that it wasn't a thing with book-Hannibal?

in the books this whole period is glossed over in a few (like ..two) lines so the entire show is basically fanfic (THE BEST KIND) but it does tease out themes and ideas from the series as a whole, transformation, becoming, more than human, etc. Lecter only does his transformation wizardry one one person but the show extrapolates it out to him trying it on various people in various ways before hand, cultivating his garden, something to entertain his mind.

There is the vampire metaphor the show loves, Hannibal keeps trying to make copies of himself, other killers, other vampires, so he doesn't feel so alone, and Will is the only one of his potential creations who is on his same level but I always go back to the line Bedelia had, back when I wasn't so sure who she was and what her role was

"Sometimes all we can do is watch."

Hannibal likes to watch. To "see what happens".

I actually wondered if during his INTENSE session with Will, talking about imagining a reality where he felt ...powerful wasn't a replay of one of his sessions with Bedelia, with him as the blonde therapist and not the patient.
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 PM on April 25, 2014

Oh and yes, Book!Hannibal is totally fine with directing other members of the Baltimore Art Murder Movement
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on April 25, 2014

Mark watches S1E07.
posted by sparkletone at 9:51 PM on April 25, 2014

The idea that we may never see a Clarice in this Hanni-verse distresses me.
posted by PussKillian at 9:52 PM on April 25, 2014

The idea that we can't see Anna Chlumsky as Clarice or a Schmalice is more distressing cause holy fuck she's good.
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 PM on April 25, 2014

If she's going to be our Schmalice, I would be very happy. I just don't know if that's what we're getting.
posted by PussKillian at 10:02 PM on April 25, 2014

I hope she comes up again but she's not really in a place to be a Schmalice even if I will accept tortuous plot twists to get her back in the story.

Also I am reading Mark's recaps and tutting "oh sweet summer child" unironically.
posted by The Whelk at 10:05 PM on April 25, 2014

I don't think she'll be it. Not with her characters history and the whole SHOT CHILTON IN THE FACE thing. She's an echo, and a great one. But I think even a Shmlarice has to be someone else's someone "fresh" (at least to the show's world). Potentially someone that would take over protagonist duties from Hugh, which is a tall order.
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

The walk through for this week.
posted by sparkletone at 10:07 PM on April 25, 2014

"So the end of nine is sort of the beginning of 10, and it’s answered very quickly at the top of the next episode, but it absolutely is an acknowledgement, “Yeah, I sent him to do this. Yeah, you did exactly what I thought you were going to do. And now we can have a conversation,” which we will have at the beginning of the next episode. "

Those two-parter vibes I mentioned earlier.
posted by sparkletone at 10:12 PM on April 25, 2014

Yeah I wonder how (knock on fine, cobalt blue painted wood) they're going to deal with Silence Of The Lambs cause it's basically a series reboot
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 PM on April 25, 2014

Honestly, if it comes as season five... That's a very normal time for shows to do kind of a reboot or to noticeably shake up their status quo. And given that it seems like this show chucks its paradigm out the window at the end of every season... It's even less of a stretch for this show.
posted by sparkletone at 10:15 PM on April 25, 2014

As someone with a younger brother I do not think I have the same idea of brotherly attachment and sentiment that Fuller has there.
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 PM on April 25, 2014

(then again I think Fuller's stance on the Will/Hannibal relationship not being romantic, given his comments in the Nerdist podcast, come from a desire not to play into the "gay people/gay themes lead to/ are serial killing monsters" thing)
posted by The Whelk at 10:24 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Damnit Jack Crawford, stop eating the creepy omelette! I believed in youuuu! Ice fishing secret agents! You were my bitcoin!
posted by lovecrafty at 11:01 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

So this episode was basically Red Cave Bear?

Hannibal's expression when Will tells him about Bedelia was priceless.

I just.. I just want Will to have his boats and his dogs and no more bad things. And now he's doing stuff you can't come back from.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:06 PM on April 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Jack Crawford is the kind of guy who would eat something that has a high probability of being people--and praising the chef--if he thought it would catch him an art murderer, right? RIGHT?

I'm gonna die on this hill.
posted by lovecrafty at 11:09 PM on April 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

*runs in circles flapping arms and yelling "SHOWWW!"*

Now then. I seem to recall his bit about church collapses being in Manhunter. Was that also in the book?

That agreeable nod at the end. Ever the gentleman Mr. serial murdering cannibal, ever the gentleman.

This show you guys...
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 11:19 PM on April 25, 2014

Jack Crawford is the kind of guy who would eat something that has a high probability of being people--and praising the chef--if he thought it would catch him an art murderer, right? RIGHT?

To be fair, it looked really good. Does anyone remember the name of that dish? I want to find a recipe for it.
posted by homunculus at 11:35 PM on April 25, 2014

"Bryan Fuller: Oh yeah, absolutely. And this was an episode where it’s like, 'Oh my God, we put a dog in danger,' which, the impetus for that really is, it’s terrifying for Will Graham that one of his animals would be in danger in some way."

Well played, Mr. Fuller. I always assumed the dogs were safe, so when the dog was hurt I felt the sting of betrayal and the need for vengeance. Sic him, Will.
posted by homunculus at 11:43 PM on April 25, 2014

Does anyone remember the name of that dish? I want to find a recipe for it.

Ah, the AV Club identifies it as Sacromonte omelette.
posted by homunculus at 11:52 PM on April 25, 2014

I couldn't stand poor little BUSTER lying in a buster heap in the snow! NOOOOOOOOO.

He's okay though, right?
posted by Justinian at 12:01 AM on April 26, 2014

Also: Needs moar ALANA.
posted by Justinian at 12:06 AM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

ALANA IS NEXT WEEK

ALSO FREDDIE
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 AM on April 26, 2014

Super Meta-reasons for feeling sad the dog playing Buster is the little needy terrier they said was a "total ham" and "kept jumping on Hugh" in the pilot.
posted by The Whelk at 12:10 AM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh... I approve. For reasons.
posted by Justinian at 12:11 AM on April 26, 2014

Ah, the AV Club identifies it as Sacromonte omelette.

Hmm... Google tells me a Sacromonte omelette is usually made with brains and testicles. So maybe (people) liver and (people) sweetbreads is a step up?
posted by lovecrafty at 1:01 AM on April 26, 2014

An omelet thickened with organ meat? Is Hannibal running short this month or something? I would feel so guilty if I went to someone's house and they served me that, even if it weren't made from people!
posted by rue72 at 1:24 AM on April 26, 2014

Fuller said on twitter what the omelette was and linked the recipe. 'S where AV Club got that from.
posted by sparkletone at 1:51 AM on April 26, 2014

I seem to recall his bit about church collapses being in Manhunter. Was that also in the book?

Yes. My recollection is that it's the same bit references by "god must like killing because he does it all the time" thing referenced in season one.
posted by sparkletone at 1:55 AM on April 26, 2014

I feel like Hannibal wouldn't risk putting people into Jack's omelet at the moment. #stoolsample
posted by crossoverman at 2:19 AM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's how I read the scene on first watch too. Official Hannibal tumblr tags implied it was more of Bev, but as far as I'm concerned that's not canon until either Fuller or the show says otherwise.
posted by sparkletone at 2:33 AM on April 26, 2014

I wonder if Hannibal politely helped Will get the animal guy back to the crime scene after the 'even-steven' confrontation
posted by angrycat at 5:22 AM on April 26, 2014

Retreating to the house was more than just prioritizing Buster's safety. Maryland is a castle doctrine state, so if you encounter a man wearing a were-bear murder suit trying to break into your house you are 100% legally justified to put as many holes in him as necessary to stop the attack. Had Will met Randall out in the woods his use of force might have been open to more criticism.

I wonder if this is what Hannibal told Randall he "must do" to complete his career now that they were closing in on him.
posted by localroger at 5:34 AM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

#stoolsample

I wonder if Jack ate the omelet with the intent to procure a stool sample. #hardcore?
posted by localroger at 5:36 AM on April 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

I seem to recall his bit about church collapses being in Manhunter.

This was in both Red Dragon and SOTL, but I had the impression it was a hobby he'd developed after being incarcerated as a fuck-you to the forces keeping him imprisoned. "You think I'm bad because my hobby is killing people? What about THIS GUY YOU WORSHIP?"

I think it's a little less effective at this point in Hannibal's career since he's so busy actually killing people and other mischief to need to reassure himself or others that he is justified.

ON THE OTHER HAND, while neither Harris nor any of the derivatives have really explicitly laid it out, I've always felt there is a strong hint of explicit de Sadean egoism to Hannibal's philosophy, and he may have gone to the trouble to think it through. If you are feeling an urge, this would say, then that urge was placed in you either by God if you're into that sort of thing or by whatever other powerful natural forces are responsible for creating you. So to deny that urge is to balk God, to deny the intent of your very creator, to deny your intended place in the natural world. And this is why it is important to indulge those urges no matter how offensive they might be to other people or those artificial societal structures they have erected to keep an unnatural order, even when those hypocrites who balk their creator are apt to band together and hunt you down to stop you.

I could see a young Hannibal drawing that out of Yet Another Effort and then starting his church collapse collection as a little personal joke, knowing that a reckoning would be inevitable.
posted by localroger at 5:58 AM on April 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

Wow.

Not guilty, and not innocent either.

When he was waiting for Randall in the house his face was exactly half light, half dark.

Very little blue on Will this week, except during his therapy session. He spent the rest of the episode in progressively darker shades of grey. This is not good, guys.

Pretty sure Lecter sent Margot to visit Will, since she knew he would have whisky.

I think that Jack has reverted to being completely fooled in this episode - possibly in every way. I would like to think that he ate the food in order to get a stool sample, but I fear that's too much to hope for. Jack was all in blue throughout this entire episode.

On the bright side, so was Hannibal except for the little bit of red in his tie.

Zeller had a lot of noticeable red in his shirt. It was also a Will-type plaid shirt, I notice. The red was against a blue-green background.

Is it just me, or were the Science Bros visibly perked up at the sight of Hannibal? Pretty sure they still suspect him.

All this about how, in order to love a person, you have to know them. Have to want to know them. The only intimacy in this show is between killers.

The connection Will makes between Peter's pet rat and Lecter's patients being lab rats.

But ultimately I have to say a moral event horizon was crossed today. That shapka was absolutely terrible and I will never forgive the production designers for putting Lecter in it.
posted by tel3path at 8:16 AM on April 26, 2014

Notice the progression of Will's kills/attempts to kill:

1. GJH. Killed with the full force of the law. Morally endorsed in a setting where it's axiomatic that killing is righteous in certain circumstances; those of us who don't think killing is righteous still aren't about to condemn this one.

2. Hannibal. Unlawful, condemned by the law, condemned by the other characters who otherwise take it as axiomatic that killing can be righteous under certain circumstances. Condemned apparently even by some fans, who may or may not share the axiom. I seem to be one of the few who think that the whole setup of Hannibal's killing was reasonable, and effectively more moral than the inaction of the law; with the fact that Hannibal *could* have been killed despite having a sporting chance being an unfortunate necessity rather than the crossing of a moral event horizon. Whether the show thinks we're supposed to think so, idk.

3. Clark Nietzsche. Unlawful, would have been condemned by the law, immoral. The best I could say about it is it came from an understandable emotional place, but that's kinda weak. Am I about to say Will knows better? He should, but then none of the other characters seem to know better, so Will's confusion is understandable. Anyway - that was not a good thing, Will. Still, if you'd really really wanted to off the guy you could have, and you would have.

4. I don't really get what Hannibal's triumph is about here. If we are going to assume Hannibal is pretty much omniscient and omnipotent, he would have known exactly how the confrontation was going to unfold. Therefore, wouldn't he have known that it was a clear case of self-defence? And it was, not only legally, but to me also morally. Yeah, even to me, and my standards on killing are much stricter than probably the average TV viewer's; nevertheless I'm not gonna condemn someone for defending himself in those circumstances. That was a situation where Will literally had no real option but to shoot, unless he were prepared to die for a principle.

So what's Hanni going to say: good boy, you brought me a body! If the show is telling us that shooting the guy who hurt your dog, then followed you after you retreated into your house and then smashed through the window to savagely rip you apart like he did a bunch of others - if that is the crossing of a moral event horizon then this TV show is not like the others.

No really. Any other show this would be just another day at the office.

If Will is killing in circumstances that most shows would present as 100% totes reasonable and barely an interruption to the hero's daily routine, and Will is going darker and darker, then does that mean Will is getting closer and closer to an average morality? So what does that tell us about this show's opinion of average morality?

Srsly though, Hannibal is going to go "oh you killed in conditions of totally excusable self defence, well done!!!!" and give him a badge? No, it's about feeding Will's feeling of power and doing so in a way that won't get him arrested. That he can get away with.

Well, as long as nobody asks questions about where the body went, that is.
posted by tel3path at 8:33 AM on April 26, 2014

I'm interested in knowing the actual details of Will killing Randall. I'm hoping it wasn't pre-meditated. I'm hoping he didn't enjoy it. What I'm really hoping is that for Will it was kill or be killed - so he killed the guy and now he's lying the body at Hannibal's feet like a good dog, to further the implication that he's falling under Hannibal's spell.

I'm assuming he shot the guy after he smashed through the window as he would not likely have had time to do otherwise, given the known MO of this week's killer. I do think that's a fairly safe assumption.

However, if he did something like reason with him and get him to calm down, and then offed him just for the fun of it, wow. I hope we don't find out as much.
posted by tel3path at 8:45 AM on April 26, 2014

Well, the preview suggests that Will didn't just shoot him, he beat him to death with his bare hands after disabling him. Whether this is true, or just something Will wants Hannibal to believe is true is not clear.

The AV Club review (I think?) made the point that Will tells Hannibal he thought about killing him with his bare hands. But when we see Will's black-and-white dream about killing Hannibal, he's not touching him at all. It's strangling via elk.

So there's an angle where he wants Hannibal to think he wants 'intimate' up close killing. Does he really? In his dream he's got Hannibal caught and bound, and what he's really after is an admission of guilt.

He essentially got the start of one with that little nod after 'even steven'.
posted by lovecrafty at 8:46 AM on April 26, 2014

Ah OK. I can't see previews here until later in the week.

Yeah, it's not clear how much Will is putting on.

I think that Will is really in this mindset, however, I am not sure whether this is just an extra-long crime empath sequence, so that he appears to be on board with it right until the very moment when he doesn't, or if he's genuinely getting sucked down into the tarpit.

All this blue, and the progressively darkening shades of grey though, it bodes ill. BUT maybe... since it's expressed through costume... it's really just an inhuman suit that Will has donned for the purpose?

But if that were true, is it true of the other characters, and they're just pretending to wear blue?
posted by tel3path at 8:50 AM on April 26, 2014

Question: how much does Hannibal suspect Will is playing him and how much does he think that doesn't matter? Like "oh Willy thinks he can game me, well I'll make so much dirt stick to him it won't matter if he was playing along."

I mean that's the whole trust of this part f the story, how much is Will playing along and how much of him is really letting the inner Direstag loose? I can see Hannibal's rationalization being it doesn't matter what happens cause I ALLREADY won, I broke Will's brain forever and now he has to live with the Willdigo I awoken inside him buwahahaha.

Also, Margo is someone he can talk to about this. That is a huge change.
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 AM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

OMG just saw the AXN Korea promo.

Alana is finally back in red. It is an ominous Red Riding Hood coat.

Freddie seems to be wearing some combination of black and blue, also ominous.

It looks like my prediction that jealousy would be the thing that opened Alana's eyes, is about to come true.
posted by tel3path at 9:16 AM on April 26, 2014

Pretty sure Lecter sent Margot to visit Will, since she knew he would have whisky.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't. Remember her session with Lecter after her contrived first run-in with him on the street? She spoke of Will as if he was someone she had heard of but didn't know personally. It wouldn't be hard for Margot to get information on Will independent of Lecter nor would it be implausible for her to have picked Lector as her therapist based on what she read about Will in Tattle Crime. She's got her own agenda for seeing Lecter & courting Will, and I, for one, can't wait to see that played out in full in the coming episodes
posted by echolalia67 at 9:17 AM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also the promo has all that tender hand washing.
Eep.
posted by The Whelk at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2014

Not gonna lie, really worried about where this is going RN.

I haven't seen any tender hand washing... I never get to see the good promos.
posted by tel3path at 9:21 AM on April 26, 2014

Promo seemingly picks up right where this episode left off, Will's knuckles all bloody, then Not Romantic At All hand washings
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 AM on April 26, 2014

Gentle reminder that next week has the crazy sex scene
posted by The Whelk at 9:40 AM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Fact: churches that practice foot washing sometimes substitute hand washing, like right before a communion meal, because hygiene.
posted by tel3path at 9:57 AM on April 26, 2014

In other news, that friend I gave the S1 DVDs to?

She said she was now on her second rewatch and has the UK air date circled on her calendar.

And even more, she evangelised her whole family to watch. And all her workmates.
posted by tel3path at 10:31 AM on April 26, 2014 [5 favorites]

4. I don't really get what Hannibal's triumph is about here. If we are going to assume Hannibal is pretty much omniscient and omnipotent, he would have known exactly how the confrontation was going to unfold. Therefore, wouldn't he have known that it was a clear case of self-defence? And it was, not only legally, but to me also morally. Yeah, even to me, and my standards on killing are much stricter than probably the average TV viewer's; nevertheless I'm not gonna condemn someone for defending himself in those circumstances. That was a situation where Will literally had no real option but to shoot, unless he were prepared to die for a principle.

Will told Hannibal he wanted to feel like he did after he killed GJH and protected Abigail, so Hannibal sent him someone to kill and protect the dogs from. I think Randall was a gift.
posted by rue72 at 10:49 AM on April 26, 2014 [7 favorites]

I seem to recall his bit about church collapses being in Manhunter.

This was in both Red Dragon and SOTL, but I had the impression it was a hobby he'd developed after being incarcerated as a fuck-you to the forces keeping him imprisoned. "You think I'm bad because my hobby is killing people? What about THIS GUY YOU WORSHIP?"

I think it's a little less effective at this point in Hannibal's career since he's so busy actually killing people and other mischief to need to reassure himself or others that he is justified.

I agree. It was more effective when Hannibal was already incarcerated and Will had contributed to a (more or less) innocent death. And everytime they use one of these bits from later in the canon I worry that Fuller is including it now in case he doesn't have the opportunity to use it later because he suspects the show is going to get canceled. Hopefully that's just my paranoia/pessimism.
posted by homunculus at 12:55 PM on April 26, 2014

The AV Club review (I think?) made the point that Will tells Hannibal he thought about killing him with his bare hands. But when we see Will's black-and-white dream about killing Hannibal, he's not touching him at all. It's strangling via elk.

When he imagined mauling that couple, he sent the stag to do it. We know that the actual killer did it himself, but in the guide of his murder-id. Will's murder-id is the stag, rather than a bear, but it still represents him.

Which... does that mean that all during the first season, whenever we saw the stag stalking him, it wasn't meant to be Hannibal at all, but rather his own latent murderous impulses?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:00 PM on April 26, 2014

Another ratings uptick this week. WOO.
posted by sparkletone at 1:00 PM on April 26, 2014

does that mean that all during the first season, whenever we saw the stag stalking him, it wasn't meant to be Hannibal at all, but rather his own latent murderous impulses?

That's exactly what it meant. As the first printing jacket of Red Dragon and the still current IMDB for Manhunter warn, "Enter the mind of a serial killer... you may never come back."
posted by localroger at 1:05 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, especially post-learning that S1 was unreliable narrator tiemz, it seems like Dire Ravenstag is Will's latent impulses and Wendigo is for reals Hannibal. Before they seemed the same but more and more looks like they're not.
posted by sparkletone at 1:10 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

everytime they use one of these bits from later in the canon I worry that Fuller is including it now in case he doesn't have the opportunity to use it later

His stated reasoning is that they do it now because it's SUPER INTERESTING to do it in the moment and he feels it raises the stakes for them when they get to the non-echo version down the line (if they get there). I ... believe him?

Like it might not work out. Maybe they totally stumble when it comes time to do actual Dolarhyde. But if they can pull it off, oh my fucking god will having all these echos and extra layers bouncing the meaning of everything around be so freaking awesome.
posted by sparkletone at 1:25 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

You know, in the dream sequence when Hannibal tells Will that in order to truly know someone you have to love them, it reminds me of when Angelus says of Buffy "to kill this girl, you have to love her".
posted by tel3path at 2:02 PM on April 26, 2014

In the AXN preview does Alana say "thinks you two have paired off" or "you two are a pair of dogs?"

Also, are we going to see Will actually constructing a tableaux? I honestly did not think we'd see MURDER BESTIES this explicit.

Please note that once again sending a serial killer after someone is the Art Murder World version of roses and chocolate.

Doing Projects Together: Just Cannibal Things.
posted by The Whelk at 2:11 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I saw captions saying "you two are a paradox"
posted by tel3path at 2:14 PM on April 26, 2014

Please note that once again sending a serial killer after someone is the Art Murder World version of roses and chocolate.

Yeah, but Hannibal sent this bouquet to Will's work. How are they going to deal with the connotations of going semi-public like that? The BAU know the killer's Randall (I think?), now Randall's dead (by Will's hand)...?!
posted by rue72 at 2:15 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah. It's not like it's going to be considered okay now that will actually IS being the Ripper.

Being all "stand my ground laws" won't exactly cut it if you do art with the body. They put Will away just for having trophies.
posted by tel3path at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2014

Everybody and their dog has to be going "So ...you guys tried to kill each other." "yes." "and now you're best friends." "oh god yes." "Yes i. am. hannibal. lecter's. friend. completely. of. my. own. volition."
posted by The Whelk at 2:18 PM on April 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

So alana puts them both in the interrogation room and asks them, together, if they're cheating on her.

She's wearing the same black and white patterned dress with red forearms that she wore the time the BAU had the meeting striking a deal to collude with Freddie, the one that makes her look like she has blood on her hands. Maybe it's black and white and red all over?
posted by tel3path at 2:19 PM on April 26, 2014

But that's not weird at all in this universe. It's fine to schtup a cannibal as long as you never admit he's a cannibal. It's fine to dine with a serial killer as long as you dismiss the idea he's a serial killer.

It's only weird if you do it openly.

WAIT
posted by tel3path at 2:22 PM on April 26, 2014

won't exactly cut it if you do art with the body

But that's not what happened. Bear dude was placed on Hannibal's dining room table and that's meaningful on several levels but that's not a tableau. In fact, aside from the location, I'd argue it was relatively artless.
posted by sparkletone at 2:23 PM on April 26, 2014

I thought they were going to do art next week?
posted by tel3path at 2:25 PM on April 26, 2014

I guess what I'm getting at here is that this is very plausibly something that stays between will and Hannibal as far as anyone is concerned. Will is really getting to see True Hanni and as dark as he's going... I think he still has the upper hand when it comes to who is playing whom.
posted by sparkletone at 2:26 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, except Freddie.

A crime gossip columnist is about to tell Alana that #hannigram is trending.
posted by tel3path at 2:28 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I imagine Freddie trying to tell the truth is going to go over like Spike trying to tell people Ben-is-Glory

"is everybody here massively stoned?!"
posted by The Whelk at 2:34 PM on April 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

Hannibal stays clean. BearBro came after Will after running into him at the museum etc. I don't think there's much cleanup to do there plot-wise. At least not when accounting for the attack on Will and presumably Will leaving the corpse on Hannibal's dining room table is NOT something that will get back to BAU much.

I don't think that Randall going after Will and Will killing him as he burst into his house would be at all hard to explain, which is probably why Hannibal wanted it set up like that (so that Will would get off scot-free). But then Will dragged the body all the way over to Hannibal's house and laid it out on his dining table (I guess as a way of saying I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND FUCK YOU).

*That,* I think is going to be much harder to explain -- especially if Will is apparently not going to be cooperative in any sensible explanation that doesn't involve Hannibal, and especially because the other characters tend to assume the worst about Will anyway. I mean, most charitable BAU explanation, Will was attacked *and* is batshit. Which is actually probably the truth, but I mean...

I don't know where Will is going with this, frankly.
posted by rue72 at 2:37 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

By the way, wasn't Will wrong in his reconstruction this week? Wasn't he not getting at first that it wasn't an animal?
posted by rue72 at 2:39 PM on April 26, 2014

I just realized

PEOPLE START WEARING BLACK OR GETTING CLOSER TO WEARING BLACK

WHEN THEY'RE GETTING CLOSE TO EXPOSING HANNIBAL

Bedelia wore dark charcoal in one of her latter appointments with Hannibal and solid black when tipping off Jack.

Will wore darker and darker grey this ep, especially in his appointment with Hannibal.

Margot wore black at least twice this ep, maybe more. However I am worried because the outfit she wore outside Will's house was like a bat or a cape, a vampire is what I'm saying, and he invited her in. I'm wondering what he invited in.

Next week, when Freddie tips off Alana, she is wearing black.
posted by tel3path at 2:43 PM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think when he says he is using abigail as the lure he might mean he is going to figure out the origin of whatever feelings hannibal transferred onto abigail.

Abigail is obviously mischa, so getting hannibal to tell that tale is the one thing that can really upset him
posted by tel3path at 2:45 PM on April 26, 2014

But then Will dragged the body all the way over to Hannibal's house and laid it out on his dining table

Hang on, is that what happened? For some reason I thought that last scene took place in Will's house, still.

But now that I think of it, Will doesn't have a dining room so you must be right.

Was anybody else confused about that?
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:55 PM on April 26, 2014

Considering how quickly Margot put two and two together I wonder how much of her is going "please Mr. Fancy I grew up with Mason Fucking Verger I know a vampire and thrall when I see one, sheesh. "
posted by The Whelk at 3:00 PM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Agreed. Maybe hannibal is rather overconfident about who he cultivates.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on April 26, 2014

I don't think anybody will find out Will killed Tier in his home.
posted by Pendragon at 3:07 PM on April 26, 2014

His stated reasoning is that they do it now because it's SUPER INTERESTING to do it in the moment and he feels it raises the stakes for them when they get to the non-echo version down the line (if they get there). I ... believe him?

Ah, good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.
posted by homunculus at 3:08 PM on April 26, 2014

I get the feeling that Margot sniffed out Hannibal by that second appointment (last episode). Then she confirmed things were screwy when she talked to Will. She even said that she recognized he must be Lector's patient because she walks out of her appointments with the same look she recognized on him as he left, and she seemed to take their conversation over whiskey as confirmation of what she'd suspected. I think that she not only recognizes Hannibal from knowing Mason, she recognizes Will from knowing herself, and she sees the dynamic that's going on. But I think she doesn't know what to do about it yet.
posted by rue72 at 3:09 PM on April 26, 2014

Hang on, is that what happened? For some reason I thought that last scene took place in Will's house, still.

I think it's important that it's Hannibal's table, because that's where Hannibal eats people/desecrates their bodies. I also think it's important that Will put him there, because that's what people traditionally do for their dead (and Randall is Hannibal's dead [student]) -- lay them out on the dining table for viewing/the funeral.
posted by rue72 at 3:11 PM on April 26, 2014

Oh, also, maybe to Margot:

Hannibal:Will
Mason:Margot
Hannibal:Margot
Verger Sr.:Mason*

*I haven't read the books, but that's just from people upthread saying that the Verger parents trained Mason to be cruel.

Question: how much does Hannibal suspect Will is playing him and how much does he think that doesn't matter? Like "oh Willy thinks he can game me, well I'll make so much dirt stick to him it won't matter if he was playing along."

I actually am starting to think that Hannibal thinks Will is playing him more than he is? I'm starting to wonder if Will is playing him much at all, or if he's just going from moment to moment at this point, and maybe even sort of *wants* to be his murder pupil and is *cooperating.* Will's dead eyes are spooking me, I think he's pretty lost in his head at this point.

Last episode, I found it disturbing that when Will was watching Alana interrogate the social worker, he was getting things wrong and also not sounding like himself. He talked about the social worker's "dead eyes" (completely external, not "empathetic" at all), and when he said that the social worker pulling back from Alana meant he was a psychopath, Hannibal corrected him (validly, I thought) right away. He also ended that scene by identifying, again, with Peter -- not with the social worker. That's really unusual for him.

Then, this episode, he read the first murder scene completely wrong, he didn't even seem to understand that it was a human who'd killed the truck driver. In the later scene when Jack is questioning Randall, he circles around the parameter of the room like a wolf, and seems to have no empathy or understanding of Randall at all -- the only time he bothers to connect with him, sort of, is when he cracks that he knows the feeling of not being in the right skin. I think he was dehumanizing Randall right there?

There's maybe a lot of dehumanizing going on -- not even in the sense of someone being "sub human," but in terms of the line between humans and animals getting blurred. Maybe in the sense of people losing their humanity? Will picked up on the idea of *himself* as a trainable pet when he saw Peter playing with his pet rat, so I think he must recognize that Hannibal is dehumanizing him -- and Margot called out Hannibal right away for dehumanizing her. When Will was fantasizing about killing the social worker early in the episode, he was still himself in his own form in his mind's eye, but when he fantasized about killing Hannibal or about Randall killing people, he conceptualized it as the elk doing the killing (the elk *was* himself -- so where/what was his human form?). I also wonder about Will's family being literal animals, and that he was defending an animal against a human when he killed Randall -- I think that's also sort of tied to GJH in a way, in that GJH blurred the line so much between the deer and the girls he killed?

In happier news, I think that I'm getting Hannibal's "type." Men: slight, pale, brunette, rough around the edges, interested in nature and animals. Women: sophisticated, polished, cerebral redheads.
posted by rue72 at 3:46 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think he's trying, and succeeding, to get into hannibal's mindset.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 PM on April 26, 2014

I think that I'm getting Hannibal's "type."

Are you sure that isn't Bryan Fuller's type?
posted by localroger at 4:14 PM on April 26, 2014

You mean the really tall white guy with broad shoulders for his build who owns a lot of fine plaid clothing?
posted by The Whelk at 4:17 PM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Did anyone else notice that Randall Trier is very similar to (one of the) murderers in James Ellroy's The Big Nowhere? Or that when wearing the hydraulic people-hashing headpiece Trier looks a lot like the creature from Alien? Anyone?
posted by echolalia67 at 4:18 PM on April 26, 2014

Can we move off "here's next week's previews"? Just a touch more spoilerly than I prefer.

Re the omelet that Jack eats -- WHY JACK WHY? -- my theory is that any time the show lingers over the flower arrangements on Hannibal's table, it's a PEOPLE HE'S SERVING PEOPLE signifier.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:20 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Hannibal is actually serving people still after "killing" The Ripper.

I mean it would be such a huge mindfuck to make Jack THINK he's eating human but it's actually just cow and this delicious irony sustains the little plaid sausage

I don't think I saw his patented "hahaha you're eating people" smile during the meal.

So um, is anyone else really interested in what Fuller's home decor looks like?

I'd be so upset if it was like, a shirt draped over an exercise bike and one of those sad black lamps.
posted by The Whelk at 4:26 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think if somebody could identify the flowers and their symbolism we would figure it out from that.
posted by tel3path at 4:28 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

If he has a fancy furniture shop it probably looks like that
posted by tel3path at 4:29 PM on April 26, 2014

Isn't cooking supposed to turn the meat from some ordinary slob/slop into something special? (Eucharist-style?) But frying up an omelet in a pan doesn't seem like it would trigger much "transforming." I figure it's people just because I figure it's *always* people, but meh -- if any meal was going to be just regular grocery store meat, that would probably have been it.

It was so strange that Jack was just sitting there chowing down, though. I honestly don't understand what that was about.
posted by rue72 at 4:30 PM on April 26, 2014

Maybe to stop hannibal suspecting, idk
posted by tel3path at 4:33 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Actually i think the flowers might decode the dining room scene for us, but i am not good at recognizing flowers
posted by tel3path at 4:34 PM on April 26, 2014

I mean it would be such a huge mindfuck to make Jack THINK he's eating human but it's actually just cow and this delicious irony sustains the little plaid sausage

This would actually maybe go with the theme of the episode, too, where everyone kept getting confused over whether something was done by an animal or by a person or what the difference between an animal and a person actually is.

The dream sequence in the beginning confused the hell out of me (anybody have interpretations?!) but I do think that part of the point is that the elk *is* Will, and is maybe even what he's thinking of when he conceptualizes *himself* at this point.

Maybe to stop hannibal suspecting, idk

OMG Jack just return the damn dinner invitation in that case. He should be doing that anyway, the ingrate.

Actually, when I downloaded this episode from iTunes, it's listed as episode number eleven for some reason, so maybe they've switched the airing order or something and Jack's dinner is just a continuity hiccup? Why they even included it then, though, I don't know -- it's not like it was essential to the episode otherwise.
posted by rue72 at 4:37 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

But frying up an omelet in a pan doesn't seem like it would trigger much "transforming."

No, cooking is cooking. Even the making of sushi without heat would qualify because physical arrangements and chemical reactions prepare the meat for human consumption.
posted by localroger at 4:38 PM on April 26, 2014

it would be such a huge mindfuck to make Jack THINK he's eating human but it's actually just cow

But Hannibal already did that at the dinner party. Maybe he's enjoying the flip side now.

I think that the fishing conversation -- "you hook him, I'll land him" says that Jack knows exactly what he's being served. It's a price he's choosing to pay in order to keep the the Will Graham live bait wiggling in front of Hannibal.

(Also in some sense it's a penance. Jack didn't believe Will before; and he was wrong and it cost him Beverley's life. Now he is almost literally eating shit to show Will that he believes him.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:40 PM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

No, cooking is cooking. Even the making of sushi without heat would qualify because physical arrangements and chemical reactions prepare the meat for human consumption.

I disagree, I think that sushi would be a perfectly valid way of refining the fish so that it becomes "more" than fish (and Hannibal has also served sushi before), but frying up some eggs and liver in a pan just doesn't seem like a refining process to me, it seems too coarse.

I guess my point is, if Hannibal's serving something that would be improved by the addition of ketchup and/or hot sauce, I think something's wrong.

Maybe the meat was already so refined to begin with that it didn't need that process, or maybe it's incapable of being refined for some reason or maybe there's no need to refine it for Jack's consumption because Hannibal doesn't truly want to break bread with Jack anymore and this meal they're sharing is meaningless (from Hannibal's point of view, not in terms of the narrative)?
posted by rue72 at 4:47 PM on April 26, 2014

It was if nothing else very elegantly plated for Jack's consumption; a lot more care than just "here, made you an omelet".

(Also maybe a callback to Will's first egg-and-sausage breakfast with Hannibal? That also was a more casually-prepared meal.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:51 PM on April 26, 2014

I know that we're used to Hannibal serving people to everyone all the time, but I really think he's being more cautious now and isn't serving people willy nilly. He's probably just eating the trophies himself now, which is all he ever really did in the novels - as far as we know: kill people, take trophies, eat them.
posted by crossoverman at 5:42 PM on April 26, 2014

Oh, he served people meat at dinner parties in the books. Benjamin Raspail's organs to the president and the conductor of the Philharmonic, for instance.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:58 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

but frying up some eggs and liver in a pan just doesn't seem like a refining process to me, it seems too coarse.

I think Hannibal gets this "cooking" thing better than you do.
posted by localroger at 6:18 PM on April 26, 2014

A good omelette is surprisingly difficult to make well. A mediocre omelette is easy, of course.
posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on April 26, 2014

Omelettes are one of those things that seems simple until you try to make a really good one, like perfect, uniform consistancy and integrated fillings and carefully served wedges all at the same temperature.

They are something of my anicent foe cause while I have an uncanny knack for egg dishes ( despite not actually liking eggs) Omelettes beyond basic Herb and cheese are always a kitchen disaster.
posted by The Whelk at 7:13 PM on April 26, 2014

But they are not even! Hannibal made Will crazy and got him sent to prison for murders he didn't commit. At least Will wants Hannibal to go to prison for murders he DID commit.
posted by jeather at 7:58 PM on April 26, 2014

Maryland is a castle doctrine state

Minor nitpick: I thought Wolf Trap was in VA. Which makes Will driving around with Bear Guy in his car to head over to Lecter's even *weirder*.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:23 PM on April 26, 2014

One of the powers granted by Art Murder is teleportation.

So, on rewatch, aside from the OH GOD SHIPPING there's also the fact that Jack's actions make sense if you assume that the instant he saw Chilton put his hands up, the penny dropped as he KNEW - this is REALLY too convenient, this is ABSURD and no matter how much I'd like to shoot Chilton, he's not the Ripper. Maybe Will is right? But if he is right then he's playing this long game with Lecter. We need proof but we can't be seen looking for it or even suspecting him cause LOOK AT WHAT HE DOES TO PEOPLE WHO ASK QUESTIONS.

So now there is a Conspiracy Against Lecter, lure and hook, all hidden and I assume Freddie is Hannibal's double agent and Alana is unknowing eyes and ears/trump card. (For the record, I think Freddie knows or suspects everything, but she's not dumb, she's going to stay on the vampire's good side while she can) Margot is putting it together on her own, it makes her dangerous, but her chat with Will (shot like a therapy sessions) suggests she's already onboard or aware of it.

But then the chance to kill Mason, who totally deserve what's coming to him, could be too great. I think Margot is going to arrange a way to have her cake it too, kill (or disfigure) Mason while remaining free from suspicion AND get Lecter behind bars. Everything's coming up Margot.

Of course this Jack theory means that, if he's coming into Lecter's house to KILL HIM that means the plan failed horribly.
posted by The Whelk at 8:32 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wolf Trap is in Virginia. So by bringing Randall's body across state lines, Will just made Tier's murder and cover-up a federal case.

For law geeks, Virginia is a duty-to-retreat state, but the Court of Appeals stated in Diffendal v. Commonwealth that "the amount of force used to defend oneself must not be excessive and must be reasonable in relation to the perceived threat." Of course, testifying and having evidence that a crazy man in an armored suit with hydraulic murderteeth had broken into your house may convince a jury that no less harmful force was possible. In addition, Virginia allows for a person to defend a defenseless third person, and in my heart Buster qualifies as a third person.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:39 PM on April 26, 2014 [3 favorites]

"the defense would like to call a poppet made of dried fruit wearing a black crown of thorns to the stand."
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on April 26, 2014 [4 favorites]

considering how Buster bolted I'm now imagining Randall in his bear suit shaking a box of puppy treats at the edge of the woods
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on April 26, 2014

Also on the re-watch I enjoyed the cut from Will's window smashing in to Hannibal's dining room door with the same pattern.

(I hope the next time we see will's house there's just a big blue tarp taped up in the window-frame cause getting glaziers who work in historic farmhouse reconstruction is hard)
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wolf Trap is in Virginia. So by bringing Randall's body across state lines, Will just made Tier's murder and cover-up a federal case.

I don't think that it would be considered a murder, since Will did run back in his house, lock the door -- and then Randall burst in through the window wearing his hydraulic, bone/armor murder suit. I don't know how Will stopped him, but considering that Randall seemed intent on murder (and that he's got a few brutal murders to his name already), I can't really imagine what amount of force Will would have had to apply to make a claim of self-defense seem incredible. I think that was actually why Hannibal set it up as he did, to allow Will to reenact the showdown with GJH, including saving the innocent victim (Abigail/Buster) and having the killing be "justifiable" (legally and morally). It sort of reminds me of when Hannibal fed Abigail that mushroom tea and reenacted a happy family dinner with her (and Alana).

Actually, since I was thinking about those parallels just now, I watched some parts of the episode that dinner reenactment was in, "Oeuf," where the case-of-the-week is the woman who is abducting kids and forcing them to murder their families to "create a new family" with her. This is also the episode where Will brings up "capture bonding" and calls it an essential survival tool (he says, "you bond with your captor, you survive."). There were a few other things that I thought lined up between the episodes: Will says that the woman is trying to make the kids "burst with love for her," and Jack says, "So she abducts them, makes them believe no one can love them as much as she does, and then makes damn sure of it?" (Will agrees). That seems to line up with the dream sequence at the beginning of this episode? Also, just after drugging her, Hannibal tells Abigail that "psychological trauma is an affliction of the powerless" and that he's reenacting that dinner with her to give her her power back. When Alana finds out about Abigail being out of the hospital, yells at Hannibal, but at the end of the episode, she sits down with Hannibal and Abigail for dinner. Abigail zones out, Hannibal asks her what she sees, and she starts hallucinating that she's seeing her parents in Hannibal and Alana's places. Abigail says, "I see family." I think the dinner reenactment lines up with Will killing Randall as a GJH reenactment, but I don't know if the feeling Will had when he laid Randall on Hannibal's table was anything comparable to the feeling that Abigail had when she sat down to that dinner?

I want to believe that Will is playing some kind of game, but I suspect that he's actually losing it at this point. Just this episode alone, he recruited a hospitalized farmhand he met maybe last week to "work" on cases for him (if he feels a connection to Peter, I get why he would visit him -- but why would that be a *work* trip?), and loaded up a corpse in his car and drove for a couple hours so he could lay it on his psychiatrist's dining table. His actual work is also not up to par -- he couldn't really do the crime scene reconstruction this time, and he was wrong about Peter killing the social worker in the previous case. That's a pretty big change, I think, seeing as he was able to figure out much more complex cases even when he was in BSHCI (like the Muralist), and even when he was half dead from encephalitis (like Abigail being GJH's lure).
posted by rue72 at 11:47 PM on April 26, 2014 [1 favorite]

(I hope the next time we see will's house there's just a big blue tarp taped up in the window-frame cause getting glaziers who work in historic farmhouse reconstruction is hard)

I think that they won't be able to get the window fixed anytime soon. Will does have this one friend he can crash with, though. Hannibal doesn't mind at all! They can even carpool to work together, and "therapy" is right downstairs.

Alana is not going to be happy about this.
posted by rue72 at 11:50 PM on April 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Will does have this one friend he can crash with, though. Hannibal doesn't mind at all! They can even carpool to work together, and "therapy" is right downstairs.

Hannibal: I've told you time and again, the third shelf in the refrigerator is mine!

Will: But Buster was hungry! *laughter*

Hannibal: You fed foie gras to a dog? That was my dentist!

Will: Don't you mean that was for your dentist?

Hannibal, with an exaggerated wink: You got me! *uproarious laughter*
posted by lovecrafty at 12:42 AM on April 27, 2014 [5 favorites]

Alana: but what about our date?

Hannibal: don't be ungracious now Alana, dear Will has had his living situation turned inside out by a madman, I'm doing what any good friend would do (nibbles Will's earlobe suggestively)

Alana: How long is this going to go on? (one dog is humping her leg and another is trying to climb her like a tree while two more are chasing each other round and round her in circles)

Will: (now openly necking with Hannibal) I think they need to go out. Alana, could you take them? They've obviously missed you a lot.

Alana: (stomps off into the distance surrounded by dogs as, framed in the window, Hannigram topple onto the nearest flat surface) Rude, shockingly rude
posted by tel3path at 1:32 AM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]

I wonder if Hannibal is going to induce Will to kill his BAU "family" as in Oeuf.

I hope all is not as it seems but I am afraid Will does not have the upper hand right now even though his seduction of Lecter does seem to be going according to plan

Remember if he seems to be working ineffectively he is always in Hannibal's presence which will affect what he says
posted by tel3path at 1:53 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

His actual work is also not up to par -- he couldn't really do the crime scene reconstruction this time, and he was wrong about Peter killing the social worker in the previous case. That's a pretty big change, I think, seeing as he was able to figure out much more complex cases even when he was in BSHCI (like the Muralist), and even when he was half dead from encephalitis (like Abigail being GJH's lure).

Oh, this reminds me -- I don't think that Will knew that Hannibal was outside his house with Randall, before Randall attacked (and actually, it would have made sense if Hannibal was the one who hurt Buster, while Randall snuck up to the house). As far as I know, he didn't see the wendigo anywhere. Maybe that's up in the air until next episode, though.
posted by rue72 at 1:53 AM on April 27, 2014

I don't think Hannibal was outside his house with Randall.
posted by tel3path at 2:01 AM on April 27, 2014

I don't think Hannibal was outside his house with Randall.

He was, they were standing together outside in the woods (right before the dogs start barking and Will accidentally lets Buster out). Hannibal says, "The solitude of what you do is to be respected, and I intend to honor that. I've only come to offer words of encouragement. You're becoming, Randall. And this beast is your higher self. Your bodies, voices, and wills are one. Revel in what you are."
posted by rue72 at 2:07 AM on April 27, 2014

I don't think Hannibal was outside his house with Randall.

He absolutely was. He talks to Randall and then the camera slowly zooms in between the two of them to focus on Will's house.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:11 AM on April 27, 2014

Ok I misremember.
posted by tel3path at 2:21 AM on April 27, 2014

...you know rue72 what you recall about making the kids "burst with love" for the kidnapper, well, that is kind of what happened in the dream sequence, isn't it? There's a reason why they reenacted that scene instead of a different one.

It's the dream sequence that tells us Will does know what he's doing.

At first I was worried because Will is wearing blue and shades of grey the whole episode. He starts the episode in light blue-grey. He is wearing a blue shirt during one therapy session which is very worrying, i think it's the later one, which is also worrying. But his progression from light grey to darker and darker shades, almost black, looks encouraging when i realize what black actually stands for here. And in the therapy session with the nearly-black outfit, Hannibal himself was in a nearly-black suit.
posted by tel3path at 2:47 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hannibal probably taught the dogs to respond to cues while he was bringing them people sausage.
posted by tel3path at 2:55 AM on April 27, 2014

Oh shit though. When he is saving buster he has on a dark blue shirt.

So worried.
posted by tel3path at 3:24 AM on April 27, 2014

Hannibal really sees the words "patient" and "pupil" as more or less interchangeable, doesn't he?
posted by Grangousier at 4:22 AM on April 27, 2014

Yeah.

I checked again, and in the scene when will delivers randall onto hannibal's table all you can see of his outfit is that dark grey coat. Hannibal seems to be wearing a black suit.

The music that's playing is funeral music, which fits with rue72's observation that putting the coffin on the dining table for viewing was common practice until very recently (fun fact: not allowed to do this any more in the UK because hygiene). Whereas the fact that it's Hannibal's table means the symbolism has a flip side.

I wonder if that means there are two points of view simultaneously with Will seeing his victim as human and Hannibal seeing him as having been an animal. Or vice versa since it's Hannibal who looks like an undertaker here.

Or if it's the show's point of view and this is the point where they are burying Will because his soul is dead.

Randall I notice is all in black, so i think his death will expose hannibal one way or another
posted by tel3path at 4:38 AM on April 27, 2014

The flowers seem to be anemones. In general they symbolize anticipation, but there are conflicting definitions. The garden anemone specifically, which is what these seem to be, stand for forsaking, withered hopes, illness. So once again it's hard to interpret what we're seeing.

Red anemones specifically represent the tears of Aphrodite landing on the split blood of Adonis after he was gored by a boar. Relevant.

In Catholic symbolism they also represent the blood of Christ and are said to have sprung up spontaneously at the crucifixion. Also relevant.

Blue anemones I couldn't find anything on, but blue flowers generally symbolize longing and this particular use of the symbol was a thing amongst the Romantics.

I couldn't find much specific to the Spanish symbolism of anemones, since they were eating spanish cuisine, but i did find a suggestion they symbolize love in Don Quixote (what else is new). Anemone fish seem to get cooked in andalusian cuisine a lot but that's all I can find on them.

A flower seller was saying the anemone represented the departure of a loved one past the point of no return but i can't find other sources saying the same.
posted by tel3path at 5:31 AM on April 27, 2014

Looked at the promo again - Freddie shoots when will outstretches his hand but he is not holding a gun, he's pointing.

She sees him as a murderer when he's trying to warn her or point something out. Synecdoche
posted by tel3path at 5:59 AM on April 27, 2014

Killer Will is still a very different kind of killer than Hannibal, as this episode makes sort of crashingly obvious: namely, Hannibal kills for aesthetics and amusement; Will kills to defend his "pack." It's there when Hannibal tells Alana that will sent Matthew Brown after him to protect her (and avenger Beverly), and it's obviously there when it takes Tier wounding Will's dog to put Will in the killing mindset.

This isn't really the mindset that makes someone a serial killer a la Hannibal; arguably, it's not even that dark or amoral in a world where there really are beasts in the woods and cannibals at the dinner table. Granted that this is a shift from Will-the-solitary-fisherman, but it's about Will becoming more socialized rather than Will becoming more sociopathic.
posted by kewb at 6:36 AM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]

And of course Peter Bernadone is like Winston, a stray that Will wants to or effectively has accepted into his pack.
posted by kewb at 6:37 AM on April 27, 2014

Yes. Peter is the animal expert so it does make sense to consult him. Also will may be in the middle of a weeks-long crime empathing sequence with hannibal that makes it hard to break out and consider other crimes.

But once again from the looks of things, this will be sren as will doing a naughty and will invite scrutiny but it is intended to. Alana sitting hannigram down in the naughty room and glaring sternly "what have you two been up to" "nothing" "he started it"

Oh yus, serial killing is one thing but cheating on hannibloom, that can't be tolerated

Here's hoping for a nice long time gap between the handwashign and the next thing so we can all imagine as much totally heterosexual, brotherly, platonic hijinks as we like.
posted by tel3path at 6:54 AM on April 27, 2014

Or not pointing but turning off a light
posted by tel3path at 7:15 AM on April 27, 2014

Killer Will is still a very different kind of killer than Hannibal, as this episode makes sort of crashingly obvious: namely, Hannibal kills for aesthetics and amusement; Will kills to defend his "pack.

One of the things that might be worth preserving from Hannibal Rising is that Hannibal makes the transition from gifted and disturbed to my-actor-is-playing-me-as-Lucifer in the course of killing the racist butcher who was threatening and disrespectful to Lady Murasaki. He knows that Will will not let his inner elk out at first without good reasons. But the more the elk is out, the less meaningful the door will be.
posted by localroger at 7:48 AM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]

Just setting up little stepping stones on the path to Killing For Fun or Killing As Political Art, you know whatever murderous butterfly form will emerge from the entirely brotherly cocoon.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man, I really don't know if I can take Will going full-on dark side. I mean he has puppies to snuggle, how bad can he really be?
posted by angrycat at 7:55 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

But, have we seen him alone lately? That could be why we haven't seen him drop the act.

We are not supposed to know until the last gasp.

Mind you the whole premise of red dragon is that will couldn't get lecter's thoughts out of his head and was severely damaged by it all. If questioning him as a suspect and then being in the same courtroom for a short time could fuck him up from hell to breakfast, imagine what a weeks-long extended crime empath sequence is gonna do to him.
posted by tel3path at 8:07 AM on April 27, 2014

I think Will is actually sort of enjoying all this. He knows he has to fully commit to his role as Murder Pupil to catch Hannibal, but there's that part of him that's thinking "this is a good enough excuse for me to go TOTALLY BALLS CRAZY. Like, for the greater good!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 AM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think it's cause we haven't really seen him drop the act like we did before in the jail cell. He's Willdigo pretty much all the time, which makes me suspect we ARE going to get a Red Dragon-ensue scene with Hannibal in jail, smugly refusing to admit defeat, lording over how much he changed Will for the "better." by opening the door of howling murder stag madness in his brain.

I think that what Will is doing with Hannibal is purposeful (and the opening scenes are trying to tell us that -- the ice fishing and the dream are about the strategy), but I'm not sure if it's an act on Will's part at this point, or more of an illusion of control. Hannibal actually does dictate virtually every minute aspect of Will's life: how he's allowed to work, who he's allowed to associate with, how he's allowed to dress, what emotions he's allowed to display, what he's allowed to say, even whether and how he kills people. Hannibal is also willing to invade basically any part of Will or his life at any time -- in this same episode, he's in Will's dreams* and Will's home gets a gaping hole in it on his orders -- so his enforcement of that control is harsh.

It's great, I guess, if Will is feeling some amount of control in his manipulation of Hannibal, but since those manipulations always end up with Hannibal doing what Hannibal wants to do and Will trying to shape every response of his own based on how he thinks Hannibal will react to it, I would say that Hannibal is manipulating him much more than he's manipulating Hannibal. I think Will's power in the situation is illusionary, mostly just something that he wants to believe about himself rather than reflecting the truth that he's basically at Hannibal's mercy and basically going along with Hannibal's plans. Now he's even telling himself to act in love with Hannibal (in the dream) because Hannibal wants that.

But, have we seen him alone lately? That could be why we haven't seen him drop the act.

He's not even dropping the act in his own dreams, though, or in his fantasies (like when he imagined blowing off Clark's head), so I'm just not sure that it's an act. I think it's purposeful, as in he's chosen to be bait, but I don't think it's an act in that I don't think that there's necessarily some other part of himself that he's keeping a secret.

*And apparently *Will's* enforcement of Hannibal's control is harsh, he's keeping himself on a leash even when he's dreaming.
posted by rue72 at 10:29 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm thinking of the two years book Hannibal was a model patient before letting rip.
posted by tel3path at 10:35 AM on April 27, 2014

OTOH I am still banging the drum that blue means illusion, so I think you might have quite accurately described the illusion Will is under right now - the "if I do this he will do that" illusion that he can control someone by considering every action in terms of what he will think.

Not to say it won't ultimately be effective. The seducer's mirror can be very effective and entering another person's mindset does work and in fact is necessary if you're going to manipulate them.

Also that will knows lecter will know if he lies. He has to dive deep to make this work, even though it's perilous for him.
posted by tel3path at 10:42 AM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, the plan that someone will finally notice something if they think Will is involved? That's definitely going to work.
posted by tel3path at 11:33 AM on April 27, 2014

OTOH I am still banging the drum that blue means illusion, so I think you might have quite accurately described the illusion Will is under right now - the "if I do this he will do that" illusion that he can control someone by considering every action in terms of what he will think.

At this point, Will is so confusing to me that I just sort of gauge where he is by his outfits! I completely buy your theory that blue = illusion and red = truth, and that wearing blue means a character is going to believe what s/he wants to believe.

I'm thinking that black/white are symbolic, too. Black = nature/chaos, White = man/order. That fits with the spirit animals being black and the science bros wearing white, too.
posted by rue72 at 11:53 AM on April 27, 2014

TV by the numbers has Hannibal as RENEWAL PREDICTED now. Keep on keepin' on Fannibals.
posted by Justinian at 12:28 PM on April 27, 2014 [4 favorites]

It's been listed as that for like a month, though. :/
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:16 PM on April 27, 2014

What about intellect v instinct?

I still haven't figured out what white means.
posted by tel3path at 2:07 PM on April 27, 2014

Well, in western Judeo-Christian culture white is a symbol of ceremony, innocence and the soul, as evidenced by it's use in Baptisms, First Communion & the taking of Holy Orders (Roman Catholic); and bridal wear. IIRC, in Asian countries, it's the color of death & mourning. From there just free associating here, it's also a color strongly associated with the heat of summer and, conversely, the dead of winter.

Bingo!

White is the color of paradox, contradictions and ambiguity. It is the color of major life events being set in motion, the significance of which cannot easily ascertained in the moment of it's occurrence.

...or maybe not.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:17 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]

Which makes me think, we've been looking at red vs. blue from a very Judeo-Christian Western perspective. What spiritual and cultural signifiers do these colors represent in Asian cultures?
posted by echolalia67 at 3:22 PM on April 27, 2014

Obviously blue is the color of rational online discussion and red is the color of trolling.
posted by localroger at 3:51 PM on April 27, 2014 [6 favorites]

Well played, sir.
posted by echolalia67 at 3:54 PM on April 27, 2014

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out upthread, but we did notice the thin omelette in the pan transform into am inch thick frittata on the plate?

THOUGHT YOU'D SNEAK THAT ONE PAST US EH FULLER
posted by ominous_paws at 12:29 PM on April 28, 2014

Who else here thinks it's possible that Will is gonna be the only one NOT trying to catch Lecter by the finale?
posted by tel3path at 1:28 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't know about that. Even if Hannibal is successful and Will becomes an unrepentant killer, I don't think he'll stop wanting to destroy Hannibal. That's, like, the only thing he cares about anymore (well, plus the dogs).
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:31 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

Except, we were promised a paradigm shift. That would be one.
posted by tel3path at 1:38 PM on April 28, 2014

Well, so would Hannibal joining PETA...
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:44 PM on April 28, 2014

Who else here thinks it's possible that Will is gonna be the only one NOT trying to catch Lecter by the finale?

Do you mean, what if Will isn't done playing with Hannibal by the time everyone else is ready to lock him away? I think it'll depend on how much Will likes playing murder butterfly.
posted by rue72 at 1:51 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]

Via NBCHannibal on twitter: "IMPORTANT #HANNIBAL UPDATE: Buster is OK."
I hope that's not like "yeah, that steak wasn't great but it was ok."
posted by rmd1023 at 2:25 PM on April 28, 2014

Well, so would Hannibal joining PETA...

Are you sure he isn't already a member? I don't think Hannibal poses much of a danger to the world's animal population.
posted by localroger at 2:43 PM on April 28, 2014

He'd have to change his name to Hegan instead of Hegetarian.
posted by tel3path at 2:57 PM on April 28, 2014

Well, I just saw who is the sponsor for this friday's episode.

@_@
posted by tel3path at 3:48 PM on April 28, 2014

So are we gonna talk about that dream sequence being an almost shot-for-shot recreation of a scene from Hannibal Rising? Because dear god.
posted by dogheart at 8:13 PM on April 28, 2014

yeah but nobody saw that movie
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]

Now I kind of want to. Not enough to actually follow through, but if the show is quoting it my interest is slightly piqued.
posted by figurant at 8:18 PM on April 28, 2014

It's not worth it.
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on April 28, 2014

It's really, really not worth it.

(I saw it for the sake of completion, because I am in no way co-authoring some ludicrous fic-monster that I've been working on since the end of January. Uh.)

Really, it's pretty terrible. I do admire Fuller taking bad things and making them good, however.
posted by dogheart at 8:28 PM on April 28, 2014

I do admire Fuller taking bad things and making them good, however.

Right?! Its like the bad films were rude people and he's improving them by cooking them into Beautfull 44minute servings and serving them to us in his richly colour-noted gothic dining room. And when we find out what its made from its like we don't even care because its SOOOO good.
And also he may have seduced us.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 8:50 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]

I decided to check the Wikipedia page rather than watch the movie. For people lazier than I:

He then decapitates Dortlich with an elaborate horse-drawn pulley lubricated with mayonnaise.

...oh my
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 PM on April 28, 2014

lubricated with mayonnaise.

After this episode aired, I asked tel3path what she thought the that whole sequence was supposed to represent, and she said it seemed like a wet dream. Which I haven't been able to un-see since. And now the inclusion of mayonnaise...Yup, just like brothers! Brotherly love, that's what that is.
posted by rue72 at 9:26 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]

Listen, I'm not sure how pushing someone up against a tree, listening to them talk about how much they love you, and then making them gush fountains of bodily fluid is supposed to be sexual
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:34 PM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]

Man in this fandom, if you don't ship hannigram, you're gonna have a bad time.
posted by dogheart at 10:23 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]

I mean, the elevator pitch/Netflix category for this show is basically "visually stunning murderous bromance (with puppies)"
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:28 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]

well all I know is the more a guy goes out of his way to anviliciously and repeatedly insist something is platonic the more I should believe him
posted by tel3path at 11:13 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]

yeah though just like Chilton psychicdrove Gideon into thinking himself the Ripper and unintentionally caused him to kill the nurse to feed his own pride, everyone else psychicdrove Will to think he was the copycat and Hanni barely even needed to help (cept for the occasional five murders). everyone made sure there was nothing will could do to avoid pain, be the killer or don't be. at least hannibal is offering him an outlet "you two are a paradox"

it's like psychic driving on the orient express, they all did it
posted by tel3path at 11:28 PM on April 28, 2014

I just noticed that when Hannibal is sitting with Alana at the harpsichord, he is smiling what appears to be a very big grin coming from him, BUT HE'S ONLY SMILING ON THE SIDE OF HIS FACE THAT'S TURNED TOWARDS HER.

A one-sided smile is a sign of contempt.

(or, as in my case, a sign that you can't get both corners of your mouth to go up at the same time no matter what, but this isn't a problem that Mikkelsen has)
posted by tel3path at 5:14 AM on April 29, 2014

Hugh Dancy was on Conan last night. The full episode isn't up yet but they did post this clip. Which, um. Wat.
posted by sparkletone at 5:50 AM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

Does anyone actually think there will be a Hannibloomagram literal threesome? Because I don't. People online are talking as if it's gonna happen for real.

I think they've mentally had them already in that each substituted Will for the other in their minds, and I think they'll mentally have another one this time only more so, but that's it.
posted by tel3path at 8:04 AM on April 29, 2014

Does anyone actually think there will be a Hannibloomagram literal threesome? Because I don't. People online are talking as if it's gonna happen for real.

My money's on a lot of quick cuts between a sex scene and a murder scene.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:01 AM on April 29, 2014

Also... guys. This Hannibal blogger keeps posting pictures of Raul Esparza and he is shockingly hot. How DARE you make me think Chilton is hot! This is an outrage
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 AM on April 29, 2014

Oh golly, yes. They need to bring back Chilton every year to seriously injure him in escalatingly comedic ways.
posted by tel3path at 9:05 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

Another reason to hate mayonnaise.

I assume we're having mental fantasy mind palace sex with shifting Indentities? You know just the same kind of brotherly, platonic relationship where you keep stroking each others face and talking about how loving brings out the best in people.
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

I would like to point out I called for Chilton being injured every season weeks ago.

And yes at this point I'd watch him very prissily file documents for an hour.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

(Chilton occupies a Speical place in my mind palace cause while I'd like to be as heartfelt as Will or as dazzling as Hannibal if I'm being honest with myself, oddly uptight egotistical mugging comic relief with a side of smug is way, way more likely.

Plus I own like half his wardrobe. But my tie clip is silver.)
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

I look forward to this series of drawings of Chilton being expanded upon as the show continues.
posted by sparkletone at 9:23 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

This knock-down drag-out voting battle between Hannibal fans and Orphan Black fans is pretty amazing. OB has been been ever-so-slightly in the lead for most of the competition, but the two shows have accumulated around 95% of the total votes on a poll with like 28 options.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:31 AM on April 29, 2014

My ship is Free Will, where Will Graham springs his trap on Hannibal and then gets the hell away from all these awful people until the Dolarhyde case inevitably draws him back in. I am resigned to its being both the least likely and least popular outcome of the season, and I would settle for S3: The Trial of Hannibal Lecter.

And on an off-topic note, man, look how far Community's star has fallen among Internet fandom given the results of that poll.
posted by kewb at 11:35 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's not just Community- look at Sherlock and Game of Thrones! The poll has just been utterly hijacked by obsessive fans of Orphan Black and Hannibal.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on April 29, 2014

Amen, kewb! ALL THE PEOPLE IN WILL'S LIFE ARE TERRIBLE
posted by tel3path at 11:43 AM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

This knock-down drag-out voting battle between Hannibal fans and Orphan Black fans is pretty amazing.

Well crap, they're two of my favorites. It's like watching two friends fight. I can't get involved. :(

There's an Orphan Black thread, btw.

It does make me wonder, how would Hannibal cook the clones? I assume he'd do different things with each one based on their personality, but he might create a overarching theme for all the dishes too. This demands a crossover. It'd be a hoot to see them in therapy with him.
posted by homunculus at 11:45 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

He's totally start grooming Alison to be a serial killer.
posted by The Whelk at 11:49 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh my god he totally would
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:55 AM on April 29, 2014

Chilton occupies a Speical place in my mind palace cause while I'd like to be as heartfelt as Will or as dazzling as Hannibal if I'm being honest with myself, oddly uptight egotistical mugging comic relief with a side of smug is way, way more likely.

I think that Chilton was meant to be easy to relate to this past season because he was the go-between for the outside world/Hannibal and BSHCI/Will. He was sort of the audience's stand-in/guide (his obsession with surveillance was maybe part of that), and his change of perspective on Hannibal (and Will) was supposed to mirror ours, I think. His selfishness, amorality, and growing fearfulness were also meant to mirror the audiences', too, maybe.

Without Chilton around acting as a barometer or audience stand-in within the show, I think it's been much harder to grasp what's "really" going on. Since then, they've added those opening scenes that lay out the "real" gameplan from Will's perspective, which has helped. I don't mind being a bit adrift, though. There's no room for a go-between for Hannibal/Will at this point anyway.
posted by rue72 at 12:00 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

Right. As The Whelk said we've never seen him drop the Willdigo act when he's alone the way he would when he was in jail. Since he's been out of jail, we've seen him alone twice: when he rescued Buster, when he had a genuine reason to summon the Willdigo anyway; and when he woke up from his dream, which was a dream about his game plan.

I feel like I'm watching an alcoholic go undercover in a bar.
posted by tel3path at 12:08 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

As The Whelk said we've never seen him drop the Willdigo act when he's alone the way he would when he was in jail. Since he's been out of jail, we've seen him alone twice: when he rescued Buster, when he had a genuine reason to summon the Willdigo anyway; and when he woke up from his dream, which was a dream about his game plan.

I don't know that it's as much of an act as all that, though? I think that it's sort of an act, but that dream also seemed like a sort of self-justification (so did the ice fishing scene with Jack). It seems to me that Will's sort of going, "But I HAAAAAAVE to get close with Hannibal. It's for the PLAN, jeez!"

On the one hand, I think it *is* the plan for Will to become close to Hannibal to lure him in, but on the other hand...I'm starting to think that the plan is at least somewhat of an excuse for Will to do what he's tempted to do anyway.

It's like showbiz_liz was saying before, Will can act crazy, murderous, *completely* awful, and Hannibal will just stroke his face and tell him he loves him. Hannibal might be repulsive, but unconditional love isn't. I find it hard to believe that Will isn't finding Hannibal's (ostensible) offer of love tempting *at all.* But maybe I'm underestimating how coldhearted or self-sufficient the dude is, I dunno?
posted by rue72 at 12:40 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

But if he goes in there with an agenda, as they said to Starling, he'll know. It has to be real to be convincing at all.

Doing what he naturally wants to do, and being completely sincere about it, and using those as ways to manipulate Hannibal, are what's called "utilisation" in psychology - working with your nature rather than against it.

His natural urge is to kill people a lot, his natural urge is to bask in Hannibal's unconditional love, and his natural urge is to ruin Hannibal. His natural urge is also to protect and rescue the innocent, among whose ranks he doesn't include himself. So when you think about it it all fits.
posted by tel3path at 12:45 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]

His natural urge is also to protect and rescue the innocent, among whose ranks he doesn't include himself.

Ooo, yes. Like when he said "you're not a murderer, Frederick," there was this obvious undertone of "and I'd know, because I totally am!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:58 PM on April 29, 2014

His exact words were "not a killer" but yeah.

I don't think Will is a murderer quite yet, though he came dangerously close with Ingram.
posted by tel3path at 12:59 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

What's the endgame to Plan: Legit Murder Husbands, though?

It seems like it's just some vague thing about Jack pulling them both into the BAU? That's part of what's making me feel like the plan is just an excuse.
posted by rue72 at 1:03 PM on April 29, 2014

I don't buy that this is all just an excuse for Will to give in to something that he's always been tempted by. The Will we meet at the start of S1 is completely fucked up by having to shoot GJH. Aside from the thing with the orderly (and that was a fairly desperate play under very different circumstances than Will's in now), he's never killed except in self-defense. And we know full well from S1 how unpleasant all this thinking about being in the heads of serial killers is for him.

But he's edging up to it now because he knows that's what Hannibal wants to see, and he doesn't have many other means by which to manipulate Hannibal into exposing himself for the monster he really is so unequivocally that he can be taken down.

So there isn't an "endgame" to the plan that involves Will going fully dark, I don't think. He just needs to as convincingly as possible go down that road as far as he needs to catch Hannibal and no farther.

In keeping with the whole "Lecter as Satan" thing... Will's gambling with his soul against the Devil and... actually for the first time in a long time it seems like he's starting to get a bit of an upper hand. BUT AT WHAT COST by the time this is all said and done remains to be seen.
posted by sparkletone at 1:53 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

So Hugh was on Conan on Monday, and then today there's this fluffy little TV interview. Nothing too interesting or new except it contains a brief clip from what I assume is this week's show that uh... It's not particularly spoiler-y in terms of plot or anything but it ends on a line of dialog that made me do a "DID HANNIBAL JUST SAY WHAT IT SEEMED LIKE HE DID" double take.
posted by sparkletone at 2:04 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wow sparkletone that is a GREAT little excerpt. "The meat is bitter. About being dead."
posted by localroger at 3:41 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, he finally said it.

I don't think he fully understands how prepared Will is for this.
posted by tel3path at 3:46 PM on April 29, 2014

I can't use my speakers right now can someone tell me what he said?

Was it distressingly sexual?

I hope it is distressingly sexual.
posted by The Whelk at 3:52 PM on April 29, 2014

Still images are up. Mason's coat is even better in color (image is just of Mason and Margot without any other context about where they are or why or anything, only really interesting for what they're wearing and Margot looking upset by something or other).

That clip combined with some things in the preview at the end of last week has me seriously worried in that "Will gambling with his soul" vein of thinking I was posting about earlier.
posted by sparkletone at 3:53 PM on April 29, 2014

I can't use my speakers right now can someone tell me what he said?

Hannibal says, "This meat is not pork."
posted by rue72 at 3:54 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

I also think it's an important contrast to Gideon's total submission. You could say Gideon was "metal as fuck" or whatever, but he was basically trying to spare himself the only small bit of pain and indignity he could possibly stave off.

Hannibal is gonna expect Will to be Will-like and sarky, but to give in because for one reason or another he has to go along with it, and Will is doing that. He isn't trying to put up a front of being "metal as fuck" or whatever. The sincere response itself is the front.

Hannibal sure is openly enjoying the sadism there. Wow. Like so much for wanting an equal, it actually looks like he's looking forward to a wonderful lifetime of forcing a complaining but ultimately compliant Will through one indignity after another.

Yay for Hannibal respecting people and seeing the beauty in them and their potential and stuff.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 PM on April 29, 2014

From that still image- I'm very interested in Margot's wardrobe choices, specifically how she often completely covers her neck. I'd have to go back and check, but I think she might do that in situations where she feels more vulnerable. Like armor.

Also, from that clip: "It was my turn to provide the meat," ho ho ho OH SHIT
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:01 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]

From that still image- I'm very interested in Margot's wardrobe choices, specifically how she often completely covers her neck. I'd have to go back and check, but I think she might do that in situations where she feels more vulnerable. Like armor.

That's an interesting thought. There's another image in the set of her in Hannibal's office with her hair down and wearing something that's ... less severe/uptight is how I'd phrase it I guess (calling that outfit "revealing" is a big stretch imo).

Maybe she feels like she has a better read of Hannibal now and can relax a little, but Mason still freaks her out (understandably).
posted by sparkletone at 4:08 PM on April 29, 2014

I need mason verger's jacket where can I buy it
posted by The Whelk at 4:11 PM on April 29, 2014

The excerpt is better than the payoff quote indicates.

Hannibal: This animal tastes ... frightened.

Will: What does frightened taste like? (inserts bite and chews meaningfully)

Hannibal: It's acidic. (chews meaningfully)

Will: (chews meaningfully) The meat is bitter. About being dead. (Ever so faint and knowing half-smile)

Hannibal: (Very pleased smile, looks down, cocks head quizzically) This meat is not pork.

TV interviewers in unison: WHOAAAAAAA
posted by localroger at 4:27 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

I need mason verger's jacket where can I buy it

I expect that by the end of the season you'll be able to buy it rather cheaply from Margot as Mason won't be needing it any more.
posted by localroger at 4:51 PM on April 29, 2014

I need mason verger's jacket where can I buy it

Please don't wear that jacket while otherwise dressed like Chilton. With his cane and that collar you'll look like a pimp on a trip to the Arctic.
posted by rue72 at 4:56 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]

Don't Arctic pimp shame
posted by The Whelk at 5:06 PM on April 29, 2014 [5 favorites]

I think it's a publicity still, not an episode still. Hannibal didn't really lounge on his couch like one of Jack's French girls, for example.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on April 29, 2014

I think it's a publicity still, not an episode still. Hannibal didn't really lounge on his couch like one of Jack's French girls, for example.

No. These stills pretty much always show up in the show itself. They're provided for media to use for header images for their recaps and shit. The "french girls" Hannibal pic was from pre-airing promo stuff. Not the same thing.
posted by sparkletone at 5:29 PM on April 29, 2014

Margot dresses unnervingly like... me. At times.

I have jackets that are very similar to that one, for example. Unlike Margot, I don't consider it loungewear.
posted by tel3path at 5:33 PM on April 29, 2014

I'm just wondering if the next episode's "the meat is not pork" conversation is going to happen in front of Alana at the dinner table. Imagine the sitcom.
posted by tel3path at 1:01 AM on April 30, 2014

Not unless she's hiding somewhere. What little we've seen is enough to be pretty sure that this particular meal is murder husbands only.
posted by sparkletone at 1:22 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Will's gambling with his soul against the Devil and... actually for the first time in a long time it seems like he's starting to get a bit of an upper hand.

What makes you think that he's getting a bit of an upper hand?

To me, it keeps looking like he's losing ground and making concessions, but I'm not really that clear on what's part of Will's plan anyway and could be missing a lot.
posted by rue72 at 1:34 AM on April 30, 2014

ONOZ

HANNIBAL IN RED NEXT EPISODE, WILL IN BLUE

OMG ONOZ
posted by tel3path at 1:44 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is apparently a nice, long Screen Actors Guild interview with Hugh, but I can't get the freaking thing to load at the moment.

To me, it keeps looking like he's losing ground and making concessions, but I'm not really that clear on what's part of Will's plan anyway and could be missing a lot.

That's maybe not the best way to phrase it because the costs here are probably going to be pretty terrible, but I think he's got an edge right now because his manipulation is most definitely working. That's not something we can say about past attempts to take Hannibal down. It can and probably still will all go terribly, terribly wrong but for now Hannibal is playing Will's game to a degree that he's never been before instead of the other way around.
posted by sparkletone at 1:47 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

his manipulation is most definitely working. That's not something we can say about past attempts to take Hannibal down.

Whenever Will asks for something, doesn't Hannibal try to give it to him, though? When Will asked Hannibal to come visit him in the very first episode of the season, Bedelia warned that it meant that he wanted to manipulate Hannibal (and that Hannibal going would mean Hannibal wanted to manipulate Will), and Hannibal answered with basically an Ode to Will Graham. When Will requested a GJH reenactment just now, Hannibal gave him one by the next day or so.

I feel like Will's plans are too rational, and he's kind of missing the point? He's winning the battles while losing the war? Because meanwhile, Hannibal has gotten Will to start playing nice with him, to start accepting his tokens of affection, to start dreaming about him, to make promises to himself to at least pretend to love Hannibal back (in the dream), to make outlandish requests so that Hannibal can prove his love, and now they're going to be sharing a romantic dinner of Human Being (and I'm sure that's going to be the least of it)...I don't think that Will *actually* loves Hannibal (yet?!), but that's what I mean by losing ground.
posted by rue72 at 2:22 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Bedelia warned that it meant that he wanted to manipulate Hannibal (and that Hannibal going would mean Hannibal wanted to manipulate Will)

I was actually just thinking about that scene. I don't know how much they had worked out at the time that specific bit was tossed around the writers room (much less the literal actual dialogue in a script), but it's interesting how predictive that became. We get a bit of it up until the thing with the orderly and Will being freed... But Will's game doesn't entirely work. Hannibal's still on the loose and while there's more suspicion of him now (at least a little) it's nowhere near enough.

But now that he's not stuck in BSHCI, Will makes an even more intense play to manipulate Hannibal, that also starts with a very pointed request for conversations. I think Hannibal assumes he's more in control of Will than he really is and that is at root why I think Will's got a slight edge.

This week I'm mostly interested in seeing how they play Mason than the continuing development of murder husbands, though I'm sure I'll enjoy that as well. The preview last week made it seem like maybe Will at least mentally is going to make his own tableau? That is a HUGE step and if that's what that snippet and "this is my design" means... I will be quite worried.

Fuller's made it sound like ep 12 is a similar kind of climax that last season's was. I get the feeling we'll be back in "terrifying hurtling the plot forward rapidly" mode, which hopefully will sate the people that found the last two episodes somewhat slight (a feeling I'm not entirely unsympathetic to).
posted by sparkletone at 2:37 AM on April 30, 2014

The other thing here is that the show could not have been more blunt with the fishing metaphor. They've brought it up repeatedly for good reason. The bait needs to be truly irresistible at this point, and Will seems determined to go perhaps too far to get there.

While it made sense as a gambit at the time, I do wonder just how much harder Will's made it to do what he's trying now by sending the orderly after Hannibal. That really did seem to hurt Hannibal's feelings in addition to making clear how big a threat Will is. That little nod at the end of last week not withstanding, I really don't trust Hannibal to think things are entirely Even Steven.
posted by sparkletone at 2:43 AM on April 30, 2014

Oh, and there's some interesting stuff from Hugh about this topic in that SAG interview. It's around 30-32ish minutes in.
posted by sparkletone at 2:45 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

So at the point we see them on screen, they themselves often didn't know.

I think that Will *is* going under and the only thing that tells me that is blue vs red. As rue72 points out, Hannibal is the one person who loves him wholeheartedly and, as long as Will commits to working within Hannibal's system, won't let him down.

Will tried working within everyone else's system - the law, among other things - up till now and people have done nothing but let him down. His actual place in that system is *down*, he is there to take from, not to give to, and the only hand he gets is the back of one.
posted by tel3path at 4:01 AM on April 30, 2014

Does this remind anyone of "Let The Right One In"?
posted by tel3path at 4:02 AM on April 30, 2014

Let The Right One In

Backward swimming pool scene is backwards.
posted by localroger at 5:18 AM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

So at the point we see them on screen, they themselves often didn't know.

It doesn't sound that different to me than the first season, really. We know Bryan threw out a ton of scripts when they started seeing dailies, and even details like the ear thing... Like yes, the ear thing was pitched in advance and Hugh knew that, but for a while it was going to be Bev's ear, not Abigail's and so on.

I can see why it's certainly a difficulty that comes with working in TV for the actors though.
posted by sparkletone at 5:46 AM on April 30, 2014

They might not know what is happening outside themselves but normally an actor would know what their intentions were when they were saying a line.
posted by tel3path at 6:21 AM on April 30, 2014

The issue isn't that they don't know their intentions in the given scene, it's that occasionally they wouldn't have a good sense what they were building towards in later episodes. Even Bryan's talked about having a "well, what now?" moment after breaking the first seven and finally having to sit down and really work that out after having a much clearer idea of the arc of the first half of the season.

It's an issue with building a through line by consistently conveying a character's progression even when things are filmed out of order and they haven't seen later episode scripts. I'd be shocked if they didn't ever know what a given line meant. If something's that out of sorts, you call the writer on set over and the director and have a "what the hell am I saying here" conversation.

If that's happening regularly, that's a much worse problem to have than the one Hugh describes and is why lots of shows try to have the credited writer on set when possible to answer questions and do last minute revisions.
posted by sparkletone at 6:42 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

So ... is it time for a new post?
posted by echolalia67 at 7:07 AM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Call me naiive but I am convinced that both Jack and Will are playing a long (and extremely dangerous) game with Hannibal at this stage. I think Jack finally believes Will but because Hannibal is so very, very good at what he does a very long bait is being thrown by Will, who is undoubtedly also being pulled in direction he never would have thought he could possibly go by the incredibly seductive Hannibal, and Jack is waiting to pull that line in, however it comes and in whatever manner is necessary.
posted by h00py at 7:08 AM on April 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not questioning that Will is playing a long game, I just think he's in serious danger of losing.

Hannibal is the one person who says to Will in S1 "I don't care about the lives you save, I care about your life".

Will has people who sorta care about his life, at least enough to try not to get him killed, but they're fine about loading him up with false accusations, declaring him crazy, and keeping him in an asylum for the rest of his life. Yeah Hannibal was the one put him in that asylum, but Hannibal was also the one who cared enough to do what it took to get him out. There was only one other person who cared that much about Will, and that was Bev, and even she (at first) was only visiting Will because she wanted something, and had to believe he was not guilty in order to care for him; her love was conditional - as it should be, but now that's taken away, here's Hannibal who knows the whole story and loves Will, loved him when he was not guilty, loves him now that he's ambiguously more guilty.

So the price of that love is that he'll have to become totally guilty? And the question is, will he pay that price and how big is it gonna be? Will he throw that love back when the moment comes to choose between receiving Hannibal's love and taking him down?

I am afraid Will is going under right now. That's where I think he's at in this moment. Doesn't mean he won't turn it around, won't win the game by the end of the season, but boy is he in trouble.
posted by tel3path at 7:22 AM on April 30, 2014

echolalia, post the thing, it will be fun i promise
posted by tel3path at 7:23 AM on April 30, 2014

NEW THING: Hannibal And Evolution
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 AM on April 30, 2014

So ... is it time for a new post?

Yeah. I've been trying to think of a good framing for a post since we're still some weeks from the finale airing (which makes it easy).

I do look forward to a fresh thread because this one is noticeably slower to load than most threads because are chatty, chatty motherfuckers here.
posted by sparkletone at 9:01 AM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Yeah. I've been trying to think of a good framing for a post...

Perhaps a post about how Hannibal is turning MeFites into aspiring Fancy Cannibals? Or would that go in MeTa?

I do look forward to a fresh thread because this one is noticeably slower to load than most threads

My mobile glares death at me every time I have to do a full reload. Thank heavens for that "skip to menu" link at the top, because had scrolling all the way down has become completely impractical!

Actually maybe we should jump on MeTa and appeal to the MetaFilter gods to have Our Show added to the FanFare beta, because we're ridiculous, but denying us that would be...Rude?

Seriously though, its a beta, I don't expect them to compromise their starting parameters, but maybe still worth a try?
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:10 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Something centered around the fandom might be a decent way of doing it... Maybe include the hulu poll, and some of the fan art and stuff, though I think by now I've posted most of my favorites that I've seen in comments already (I still hit play and laugh every time that "talk dirty to me" crackvid comes up on my tumblr dash). So that it's already in comments is the argument against, but the argument for doing it that way is probably that these links are buried in 1000+ comment threads and not framed in any particular fun/interesting way outside of the context of on-going discussion of the show.

As for FanFare... I'm pretty sure Hannibal was mentioned at least a couple times in that massive MeTa thread before it became a long argument about how to handle GoT. They've been pretty firm about keeping it to just the two shows and I'm not convinced even our high comment count threads the last couple months are enough to warrant Special Snowflake status. FanFare will be there for us after this next hiatus though!
posted by sparkletone at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Presumably these aren't being posted posthumously, but S1E12 for Mark Watches had me worried about the poor guy. Tomorrow's post is going to be sad-making.
posted by sparkletone at 12:31 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

showbiz_liz, that's a really good idea. Give me like an hour.
posted by dogheart at 3:43 PM on April 30, 2014

(I mean, it make take me a minute because I've only ever shared a google doc with like three people at a time, but it can't be that difficult, can it?)
posted by dogheart at 3:46 PM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Okay, I think I did this correctly? And it's pretty bare-bones, but have at it.

The link!

This is crap. Make it better. I have faith in you.
posted by dogheart at 4:28 PM on April 30, 2014

Is one of the links to the mark reads/watches post cause those are hilarious
posted by The Whelk at 4:31 PM on April 30, 2014

Sir, what do you take me for? Of course there is a Mark Watches link. And, Y'know, feel free to add stuff. Like I'm just releasing this puppy into the wild.
posted by dogheart at 4:40 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeeeeeahhhhhh thanks dog heart
posted by tel3path at 4:42 PM on April 30, 2014

That's fantastic, dogheart. Thank you!
posted by rue72 at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2014

Hope springs eternal.
posted by sparkletone at 5:57 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am trying to edit it but I don't have permission, do we need permissions?
posted by jeather at 6:10 PM on April 30, 2014

I am trying to edit it but I don't have permission, do we need permissions?

Yeah. I sent dogheart a memail. Hopefully she'll see it soon.
posted by sparkletone at 6:17 PM on April 30, 2014

Shit, guys, sorry. Like I said, this is my first expedition into this kind of thing.

Try this link?

If that doesn't work, let me know. (Man I am terrible at technology.)
posted by dogheart at 6:21 PM on April 30, 2014

I don't do this very often either, and I think Google changed this UI since last I used it. But going by the first couple steps of sharing a doc of my own... It looks like when you click Share, you want to set the access to Anyone with link and then down below that make sure that the "Can view" thing is set to "can edit."

I think the link stays the same regardless, it's just the sharing permissions that get adjusted btw.
posted by sparkletone at 6:36 PM on April 30, 2014

OH MY GOD I AM A MORON KILL ME NOW

THIS SHOULD WORK AND IF THIS DOES NOT WORK I WILL COMMIT SEPPUKU TO RESTORE MY HONOR

CHRIST I AM SO SORRY
posted by dogheart at 6:38 PM on April 30, 2014

ugh i just

what the fuck, self

god.
posted by dogheart at 6:40 PM on April 30, 2014

Working for me now! Don't feel bad about it. :)
posted by sparkletone at 6:45 PM on April 30, 2014

\o/

okay, now i am going to step away from the internet and go drink wine with my mom like we're lannisters.
posted by dogheart at 6:51 PM on April 30, 2014 [3 favorites]

"We end season two in such a strange way - boy, I would be pissed [if that were the end]! We don't quite land the plane, we leave the plane in the air."

Oh, MAN. Thanks, Bryan Fuller.
posted by crossoverman at 7:36 PM on April 30, 2014

dogheart would you mind if I/others moved stuff around in the post?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:38 PM on April 30, 2014

okay, now i am going to step away from the internet and go drink wine with my mom like we're lannisters.

Is your mom's brother also your father?
posted by crossoverman at 7:38 PM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

God I hope not.

And yeah, go nuts. Move stuff around, rewrite, whatever. I have negative ego where this is concerned.
posted by dogheart at 7:49 PM on April 30, 2014

You guys, I am MOVING APARTMENTS at 11am tomorrow, I'm not done packing, and I am fucking about with a Google doc about a TV show. WHAT IS MY LIFE

When will we wanna post this? Not too soon I hope, I'd like to work more on it tomorrow!

Also, the spare links at the bottom can be used by anyone if I don't get to them first.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:00 PM on April 30, 2014

When will we wanna post this? Not too soon I hope, I'd like to work more on it tomorrow!

I'd like to wait until this thread's truly dead, to be honest, or perhaps after a reasonably brief wait once Friday's episode has aired if this thread's still alive. Do it out of necessity, or do it before the meat spoils, I say. It's what Hannibal would advise.
posted by sparkletone at 8:17 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

PS. If it makes you feel better about procrastinating, I've been meaning to dig up favorite bits of fan art for possible use... But have gotten sidetracked watching crack vids to see if there are any as good as the two I already stuck in the post...
posted by sparkletone at 8:18 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

This post is going to close tomorrow, right?
posted by lovecrafty at 8:30 PM on April 30, 2014

Good lord. I had the most recent korean promo video playing in another tab while I worked it into the post we're making... When I go back to close the tab, it's at the blingee'd image of Hannibal being pseudo-cruicified. And I'm laughing way harder than I should be.

This post is going to close tomorrow, right?

I think so? But I forget if it dies at midnight or at the specific time of day it first went up or what.
posted by sparkletone at 8:42 PM on April 30, 2014

It's the specific time of day it first went up. There are few things as frustrating as missing a thread by just a few minutes. Or so I've heard.
posted by homunculus at 9:37 PM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

PPS, I spent most of the past week writing grant reports, which is sort of similar to working on this post but 1000% less fun! I'm glad I'm doing this now instead...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 PM on April 30, 2014

You GUYS. You guys are amazing, and I love all of you. I won't even try to organize things until tomorrow, but please please please make sure you put your name at the top so you get credit when the post goes up. Because Christ almighty, everyone is awesome.

Fannibals! Mefites! I LOVE EVERYBODY IN THIS THREAD!
posted by dogheart at 11:52 PM on April 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

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Consuming Hannibal
March 31, 2014 5:24 PM Subscribe