Being a superhero is awesome, everyone should try it

April 4, 2014 10:59 AM

Captain America: The Winter Soldier is racing towards another blockbuster weekend and another hit for the Marvel cinematic universe. With future films planned out as far as 2028, can any other studio succeed in grabbing at Marvel's crown? And as the stars chafe at their multi-film contracts and grow tired of fame, waht next for Kevin Feige, the man behind Marvel's success?
posted by penguinliz (315 comments total)

All I have to say is that I didn't think they could combine a political thriller, a slow reflection on loss and change, and a bang bang shoot them up into a film, but fucking hell, keep hiring that particular team and keep turning me into an sludgy mess of feelings.
posted by Katemonkey at 11:04 AM on April 4, 2014 [10 favorites]

Tangentially - Samuel L. Jackson was on The Daily Show last night (Canadian viewers here ) and talked a bit about the whole Marvel juggernaut; it was quite fun.

Although, the highlight was when Jon asked him about the special effects and acting complications they posed, but SLJ started talking about something from filming Star Wars instead:

"When I first started doing Star Wars it was just a big green room and we had some things in there and I had my lightsaber and George would say 'ok, there's this thing attacking you', and I go 'how big is it?' And he says 'it's as big as an SUV' and I go 'really, how fast is it?' And he says 'it's as fast as you want it to be.' So I'm like 'I can do anything I want and you'll draw stuff around me?' He says 'kick all the ass you want and we will make sure it looks like you're the baddest Mother F@#$er in the universe.'"

posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on April 4, 2014 [37 favorites]

You know, maybe Chris Evans should have said no to Captain America, like he did the first three times they asked him. No use crying about it now.
posted by Pendragon at 11:09 AM on April 4, 2014

I've been a fan of Sebastian Stan ever since Kings , so this is good.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:10 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Not sure "Chris Evans said something silly" is "The stars chafe at their contracts" but hey, it's a super hero movie franchise, exaggeration is going to happen.
posted by FritoKAL at 11:12 AM on April 4, 2014

I have never cared about Captain America, but then thanks to Metafilter I started reading American Captain and even though it's not the same as the movie story, I'll probably go and be imagining the movie captain as an angst-filled frustrated artist who does biographical comics to deal with his trauma when he's not fighting.
posted by emjaybee at 11:13 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is how I picture Chris Evans.
posted by Justinian at 11:13 AM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

IT IS SO GOOD OMG GO SEE IT NOW.
posted by corb at 11:14 AM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm not a big fan of these movies -- I've seen them all*, but the only ones I've felt compelled to return to after the first viewing were the first and third Iron Mans -- but the reviews for The Winter Soldier have me really interested in this one. I already have a ticket to an afternoon show today.

* Actually, hang on, I haven't seen the Thor sequel. I forgot about that one.
posted by doctornecessiter at 11:14 AM on April 4, 2014

There's nothing that ties directly into Thor 2, right? I've been looking forward to this for basically ever (Cap 1 is my favorite Marvel movie so far, largely because Chris Evans) but I haven't had time to watch that yet and I'm spoiler-paranoid.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:15 AM on April 4, 2014

I have never cared about Captain America, but then thanks to Metafilter I started reading American Captain and even though it's not the same as the movie story, I'll probably go and be imagining the movie captain as an angst-filled frustrated artist who does biographical comics to deal with his trauma when he's not fighting.

Actually, it's very easy to see the American Captain comic happening between and amidst the movies, which is why I enjoy it.

Winter Soldier was great. Go see it.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:17 AM on April 4, 2014

There's nothing that ties directly into Thor 2, right? I've been looking forward to this for basically ever (Cap 1 is my favorite Marvel movie so far, largely because Chris Evans) but I haven't had time to watch that yet and I'm spoiler-paranoid.

Someone who's actually seen it may have to correct me on this (see my comment above, it's the one I haven't seen), but my understanding from people I've spoken to is that there are things in Thor: The Dark World that tie to Guardians of the Galaxy, but not necessarily the other Avengers films.

(Is that right?)
posted by doctornecessiter at 11:23 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

I have to say, I've been impressed with how Marvel has rolled-out this whole intertwined movie universe. It's pretty damned brilliant.

That said, I haven't stepped-foot in a theater in ages, and only rarely rent anything, so I'm wondering at what point do these movies become a lot like their comic book counterparts, and become pretty senseless/indecipherable to anyone jumping in at the new release? At what point does it become necessary to watch all of them in order to understand half of what's in the most recent one?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:26 AM on April 4, 2014

“I just don’t know if my heart’s as in it as it once was,” he said. “I think when I’m done with this Marvel contract, I’ll take a little break from acting.”

OTOH, all of those guys are looking at steady jobs and more money from a single movie than I'm likely to see in my life, so yeah, my sympathy, she is limited. But OTOH, I do sympathize with actors who find themselves locked in to a role for the next decade or so because if you grew up wanting to act, then trying to make it, then getting your big break, it's gotta be a little frustrating to realize "Great. Looks like I'm Captain America (or Iron Man or whoever) for the duration." Not to mention the weirdness that must come with all the people who will want to insist that you are Captain America and don't you forget it, buddy.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:27 AM on April 4, 2014

The first movies (Iron Man, Thor, Incredible Hulk, Captain America) each stand alone. Iron Man 2 and 3 make little or no sense if not watched in order (Iron Man 2 makes minimal sense regardless, but that's another story). For Avengers...it helps to know what happened in the earlier movies, especially Thor, but if you know the characters you're more or less fine.

Thor 2 and Cap 2, no idea.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:30 AM on April 4, 2014

I've been a fan of Sebastian Stan ever since Kings , so this is good.

I don't think he'll ever not be the preppy a-hole 80s villain from Hot Tub Time Machine for me...Which to me makes his "Mouthless Cyborg Danzig" look in the Winter Soldier trailer seem all the more strange.
posted by doctornecessiter at 11:35 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Cap 2 is pretty fine as a stand-alone. You may not get the three billion tiny nuances, but you don't have to. It's a pretty awesome yarn even without that, and they do great intro pieces for the broad strokes.
posted by corb at 11:35 AM on April 4, 2014

I'm really interested to see how this is going to impact agents of SHIELD.
There's already been some tie in to it in the most recent episode.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 11:42 AM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm watching this tonight, mostly because I haven't been to the movies for a while. I think I'm over Superhero movies outside of Guardians of the Galaxy for the long term.
posted by codacorolla at 11:43 AM on April 4, 2014

Iron Man 2 and 3 make little or no sense if not watched in order (Iron Man 2 makes minimal sense regardless, but that's another story). For Avengers...it helps to know what happened in the earlier movies, especially Thor, but if you know the characters you're more or less fine.

Iron Man 3 is more a sequel to The Avengers than it is to IM2.
posted by kmz at 11:45 AM on April 4, 2014

Cap 2 is good and even though I'd had it spoiled going in -- it's really easy to know who the bad guys are -- it still came off rather fresh. It felt fresh even though so many aspects of it are movie cliches. You don't need to see Thor 2 to enjoy it, though watching the first Cap movie (and The Avengers) sure helps. Also they've tied in the Agents of Shield tv show (which has finally started getting good) in with this movie, though the movie can be enjoyed without it.
posted by Catblack at 11:48 AM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

I went to see this with my kid last night & while I have mixed feelings about the political message, probably because I'm not sure what it was -- it seems to have gotten garbled up with them trying to be all things to all people -- it was quite the rollicking good time. Everything blew up, as it should, and the heroes knew to jump towards the camera.

I've had a rough couple of years with my teenage son who's gone kind of sullen on me, & isn't doing well in school, & is unable or unwilling to articulate why, so this was actually a good outing for us -- I used to read Marvel comics in the 70's, & he knows the backstory as well, so we were able to just talk movies & comics, and forget all that school bullshit & just be a couple of guys out for a good time. It was a really great evening & we talked more than we have in months. Thanks, Stan!
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:52 AM on April 4, 2014 [25 favorites]

Iron Man 3 is more a sequel to The Avengers than it is to IM2.

Soooooooooort of? The New York City battle is the launching point for Tony's arc, yeah, but I feel like I'd get way more out of the movie knowing the details of how his character started out in his solo movies but just having a vague idea that Bad Shit Went Down in NYC, than the other way around. So much of the movie is about his addictive personality, which is barely even thought about in Avengers.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:52 AM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thanks, Stan!

Thank Jack, Joe and Ed.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:53 AM on April 4, 2014 [9 favorites]

Is anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies? Maybe I'm not seeing the right ones, or not seeing them the right way (I tend to only watch what pops up on streaming services, and only watch them on my TV at home). But I just... meh.

I feel the same about the DC universe movies, and even the recent Star Trek revivals are leaving me pretty cold (and I see those opening weekend in the theater).

I'm really, really tired of the franchise thing.

Also Chris Evans leaves me completely cold. If I'm going to suffer through a big franchise comic book movie, it needs to have Tom Hiddleston in it or what's the point. Actually could we just cast Tom Hiddleston in some things that are actually good? I could get behind that.
posted by Sara C. at 11:54 AM on April 4, 2014 [8 favorites]

I'm right there with you, Sara C., except for the last paragraph (In Which Are Articulated Feelings I Don't Care Enough to Have).
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:57 AM on April 4, 2014

They're not my cup of tea either, but when they are done well they're pretty good mindless fun!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:57 AM on April 4, 2014

Did Stan Lee even have a cameo in this one? I missed it if he did.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:01 PM on April 4, 2014

Why would you come into a thread on Marvel movies to say you don't like them?
posted by FritoKAL at 12:11 PM on April 4, 2014 [8 favorites]

I think that's the thing -- they don't even seem like mindless fun to me, anymore, really.

Is this what it's like to be old
posted by Sara C. at 12:12 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

Why would you come into a thread on Marvel movies to say you don't like them?

I was kind of hoping to hear that I'm doing it wrong and should rent Iron Man on blu-ray and watch it at my boyfriend's house with the big TV and 5.1 sound.
posted by Sara C. at 12:13 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Y'all, Captain America saved the world with the power of freedom and truth and love

I can't even be a little bit cynical right now; I cried like at an ASPCA commercial
posted by nicebookrack at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2014 [15 favorites]

If you have not seen Iron Man, then I can probably think of about a million worse ways to spend an evening than giving it a try on a big screen in 5.1 sound with good company.
posted by Joviwan at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2014

Also: Steve + Natasha = PLATONIC COMRADE-BROS 4 LIFE OH MY GOD.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:16 PM on April 4, 2014 [15 favorites]

I feel the same about the DC universe movies

It's worth noting that there's no shared DC cinematic universe yet (although there will be when the next Superman movie gets released), so there wasn't nearly as much planning - but also, all of the Marvel movies in their shared universe have been really fun to watch (Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 were the weakest so far but they were still a lot of fun), whereas out of all of the DC movies that have come out recently, I can only think of two that were particularly good - Batman Begins was good but not amazing, and The Dark Knight was really quite good. But I can't think of any other DC movies that weren't dogshit. There's a sense of fun that just isn't there.

If it ain't your cup of tea then it ain't your cup of tea, but I guess I see it from the perspective of someone who grew up loving Marvel comics and wishing there'd be a big-screen Marvel movie that didn't suck.

And it's funny, because Hiddleston quickly became the weakest part of the movies for me. Yeah, great dude, you made that one kinda smug face you make, awesome, glad you could make a career out of tumblr wanting to have weird sex with you.

I was kind of hoping to hear that I'm doing it wrong and should rent Iron Man on blu-ray and watch it at my boyfriend's house with the big TV and 5.1 sound.

If you've seen the first Iron Man already, this wouldn't help. If you haven't, you should. It's a blast.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:17 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also: Steve + Natasha = PLATONIC COMRADE-BROS 4 LIFE OH MY GOD.

It seems like every time Natasha appears they stick her with a different male co-star to try and find a pairing that works (Tony, then Hawkeye, now Cap). Apparently that paid off?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:20 PM on April 4, 2014

I liked Avengers and Thor and Iron man 1 and Captain American and all these things. They're quite well made and smart enough pieces of entertainment. But IM 2 and 3 are quite terrible no? I guess the saving grace of IM 3 was that it consolidated my feeling that my girlfriend is The One: we sat through it and laughed exactly one time, at the same moment - while the rest of the theater stood silent.

If there's another person out there like us - it was the fake commercial with the collapsible christmas tree. We still talk about it.
posted by Riton at 12:20 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I was kind of hoping to hear that I'm doing it wrong and should rent Iron Man on blu-ray and watch it at my boyfriend's house with the big TV and 5.1 sound.

You are doing it wrong, but Iron Man is not where I would start. It can be a little bro-y.
posted by corb at 12:24 PM on April 4, 2014

I recently watched IM 3, and it made me mad like watching Transformers made me mad. That director / screen writer / cinematographer had no clue what they were doing. So, so inexcusably boring for a movie that's about a wise cracking robot man beating the shit out of things.
posted by codacorolla at 12:25 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

For me, it would be very easy to not like the Marvel movies, and I am indeed lukewarm on many of them, but I've really loved the Iron Man movies (except for Iron Man 2) and Avengers, and quite like Captain America. They're just fun to watch. They're not overly dark, they have charismatic and interesting characters, and they have a commitment to an overarching universe.

I find the building of the Marvel Cinematic Universe to be impressive and going beyond the usual cynical franchise cash grab, so even when an aspect of it falls flat for me (like Agents of SHIELD), there's still enough stuff I'm interested in and enthusiastic about that it doesn't matter so much.

I mean, if you're not into comic book movies, you're not into them, and that's that. I'm actually not at all into the comics themselves because they're just too sprawling and have too much insane continuity and lack of continuity going on. For me, movies and live action TV are the ideal ways to get comic book super hero storytelling without having to deal with decades worth of accumulated retcons and reboots.
posted by yasaman at 12:26 PM on April 4, 2014

Oh, also? I am trying so hard not to spoil this for anyone, but they have included an explicitly anti-racist character in this movie, for those of you who care about such things. (At least, the character shown in the movie is seriously anti-racist in the comic books, not sure what will happen on screen. Message me for more nerd deets.)
posted by corb at 12:29 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think I'm over Superhero movies outside of Guardians of the Galaxy for the long term.

Good luck with that. These days every single person on TV has superhuman abilities even if they are not wearing the PJs.
posted by srboisvert at 12:30 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

The first movies (Iron Man, Thor, Incredible Hulk, Captain America) each stand alone.

I saw "Captain America" and I disagree. The whole thing was one long trailer for...I don't even know what. All I know is that when I pay what you pay these days to go to the movies, the damn thing better not end with, hey! welcome back to consciousness! everyone you know, including the girl you love, is dead because you've been asleep for years! AND CURTAIN!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2014

That was always going to be the case for a Captain America origin movie, unless you skip the whole fighting nazis part (or Hydra, whatevs) and go straight to the frozen in ice/wake up in the modern world bit.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:35 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Agh, SIX minutes later: said character. (Movie poster only, not super spoilery)
posted by corb at 12:35 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

And it's funny, because Hiddleston quickly became the weakest part of the movies for me. Yeah, great dude, you made that one kinda smug face you make, awesome, glad you could make a career out of tumblr wanting to have weird sex with you.

Uh, have we been watching the same Tom Hiddleston? Cuz the Tom Hiddleston I saw in the Marvel films is a terrifically talented actor enjoying an over-the-top scenery-chewing Hollywood role (or as I like to call it, "Hopkins-ing").

Check out his Hal played opposite Jeremy Irons' Henry IV. Oh, and as an aside, there's a terrific scene where he's impersonating his father that's actually in the original play, but what it ends up being in this version is Tom Hiddleston doing a Jeremy Irons impersonation, which is GLORIOUS.
posted by Ndwright at 12:38 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

I enjoyed the 1940s, WWII aesthetic in the original Captain America movie, though the movie itself got a bit silly towards the (very long) end.

This one, though, is set in modern times?
And has Scarlett Johansson?

I think this is going to be a netflix viewing for me.
posted by madajb at 12:39 PM on April 4, 2014

Is anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies?

I'm only a passing fan of superheroes and not a huge fan of shit-gets-blowed-up movies, but I thought the ones I've seen (Avengers, two Iron Mans, and the first Cap and Thor) ranged from as good as a big budget superhero movie gets—Iron Man 1, Avengers, and Cap 1 to pleasant enough—Thor—to tedious, but mostly redeemed by Robert Downey, Jr—Iron Man 2. None of them will ever make a list of my favorite movies, but I like them as exercises in style and design and I think it's a little remarkable just how successful they've been as a whole.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on April 4, 2014

"...so I'm wondering at what point do these movies become a lot like their comic book counterparts, and become pretty senseless/indecipherable to anyone jumping in at the new release? At what point does it become necessary to watch all of them in order to understand half of what's in the most recent one?"

Hopefully never. Comics weren't like that for most of their history. It's just in the last thirty years (since the introduction of comic book stores and the creation of a permanent fan subculture) that continuity has become such an important element. For the first forty or fifty years comic book stories tended to last no longer than a single issue, or three or four at the most. Crossovers between comics were limited, even when the characters all "lived" in the same universe.

The Marvel movies share some of the same elements as early comics because of logistical reasons. They have to tell a complete story in one go, and are limited in the number of characters that can be featured at any one time. You can't have Captain America (or really Wolverine) in twenty movies a year, where he does a bunch of contradictory things that have to be explained in yet more movies, like you can in comics.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:42 PM on April 4, 2014

I like Chris Evans a lot, he seems like just some normal dude who happens to have crippling social phobia so whenever he goes on podcasts he tends to drink heavily and get likeably drunk and rambunctious.
posted by JauntyFedora at 12:43 PM on April 4, 2014 [8 favorites]

Looking forward to this one very much. Intrigued that there are Agents of SHIELD tie ins. I watched the first 2 of the tv series and felt let down. I grabbed the rest and skimmed them while reading the Wikipedia synopses. Dullsville. The one with Sif though? Much improved! I'll keep watching, skeptically.

That the new Cap movie aspires to political thriller intrigues me very much. I will try and convince my wife to see it with me or (somewhat more likely) see it alone this weekend.

And yes ThePinkSuperhero, that's the story of Captain America. Worth reading how he was brought back in the Marvel Era of the 1960s.

Also - I look forward with great anticipation for a movie featuring a raccoon with a machine gun.
posted by artlung at 12:43 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is this what it's like to be old

yes
posted by shakespeherian at 12:44 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

Everyone should watch the Hollow Crown series.
Hiddleston was fantastic, but so was Ben Wishaw and Jeremy Irons.
All were surpassed by a masterful Simon Baker Beale though.
posted by fullerine at 12:46 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

There's nothing that ties directly into Thor 2, right?

Chris Evans has a pretty great cameo in Thor 2, but nothing that could be spoiled by seeing Winter Soldier first.
posted by straight at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

Caught this a week ago (uk) and it was really, really unexpectedly good. The first one was easily my least favourite of the films so far and I went in with very low expectations as a last resort, having not gotten tickets for the film I wanted.

It was great. It was great enough that I want to shake everyone up thread who is being a touch sniffy or reserved and just shout GO SEE IT. Just allow yourselves the benefit of the doubt, please!
posted by ominous_paws at 12:56 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Did Stan Lee even have a cameo in this one? I missed it if he did

Soon to be unemployed security guard at the Smithsonian's Cap exhibit.
posted by zakur at 1:03 PM on April 4, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'm still flabbergasted at the number of people who got up and walked out when the credits started. HAVE THEY NEVER SEEN A MARVEL FILM BEFORE? Sheesh.
posted by zakur at 1:05 PM on April 4, 2014 [11 favorites]

I know is that when I pay what you pay these days to go to the movies, the damn thing better not end with, hey! welcome back to consciousness! everyone you know, including the girl you love, is dead because you've been asleep for years! AND CURTAIN!

Yeah the real emotional arc of the first movie should have been "Captain America dies heroically at the end of WW2" (IT'S A METAPHOR!) We needed more reactions from the other characters. An empty-casket funeral. They just didn't sell this part. Even the mechanics of his sacrifice seemed too dumb. Why couldn't he have bailed out?

But then the sequel is "In this modern era...we've brought back the hero of WW2!" (IT'S ALSO A METAPHOR!) Modern Captain America is a Rip Van Winkle story. But that needs to feel like a separate story. You can tease it at the end of the first movie, but the awakening by itself is unsatisfying positioned as the ending of the first movie and it undercuts the whole heroic sacrifice thing.
posted by straight at 1:08 PM on April 4, 2014

Has ScarJo become some sort of shorthand for 'I snub this movie?'

Tough crowd.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:09 PM on April 4, 2014

s anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies?

I enjoyed Iron Man, because it was basically Robert Downey Jr. being a wise-ass with a thin veneer of superhero stuff on top.
The next two Iron Man movies veered away from that towards more generic action movie stuff, which is not my thing.

The first Thor movie was fine, mainly because the guy who is Thor (Hemsworth) did a pretty good fish out of water routine. The second one, I turned off about a third of the way in.

The parts of the Avengers Robert Downey Jr. was in were fun.

I've not seen any but the first Bale Batman movie because it was so horrible. The sequels are reportedly more of the same.
The modern Superman movies, well, Kevin Spacey and Kevin Costner were good.

So, yeah, basically "I'll watch it if it happens to be streaming, but only the first one in a franchise".
posted by madajb at 1:10 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I enjoyed Iron Man, because it was basically Robert Downey Jr. being a wise-ass with a thin veneer of superhero stuff on top.

Same here. RDJ is visibly having a blast doing these, and that's always fun to watch.

Plus the second one had someone issue the threat "If you try to escape, or play any sort of games with me, I will taze you and watch Supernanny while you drool into the carpet," and that is plain awesome.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:14 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

Plus the second one had someone issue the threat

That was Coulson, wasn't it?

Clark Gregg is clearly having a great time with that character. I've particularly enjoyed that he provided the voice of the character in the LEGO Marvel Superheroes game, and in the "Ultimate Spider-Man" cartoon, where Coulson is undercover as the principal of Peter Parker's high school. Silly!

I worry a bit that his involvement with "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." means we're never gonna see him anywhere else from here on out.
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:21 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies

Yes. They give hardcore fans what they apparently want, but film-wise they're pretty dismal. Too long, not as clever as they think they are, and just barely watchable. I sat through the first IRON MAN because I was with my friends, otherwise I would have walked out. It's Robert Downey Jr. doing his "I'm phoning it in and getting paid a fortune" smirk, painfully unfunny humor, clumsy attempts to make it politically inoffensive to anyone whatsoever, and in the end, after two-plus hours he fights... another guy who also wears an iron suit.

I enjoyed the recent SUPERMAN with Kevin Spacey, but before that the last superhero movie that was actually any fun for me was Tim Burton's BATMAN. I think that first SPIDERMAN, which broke all those records, really proved that you don't need a good movie by traditional standards; fan service will make you a fortune.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:21 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

There's also a Marvel cabal guiding the movies--you can see during the credits but the one that sticks out is Brian Michael Bendis. I guess if we can't have a POWERS miniseries, I'll take this.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:23 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think that the DC movies are having some trouble pulling themselves out of the GrimDark morass of the 90s. The Marvel films, while PORTENTOUS and LINKED IN COMPLEX WAYS are, at their hearts, fun romps through action and big set piece scenes, which makes them work. Also, as I've argued before, superheroes are not really calibrated for a lot of character development, so setting up the Marvel films as interlocking serials lets us have the bare minimum of character progression and the maximum of new threats and thrills. And, because the characters are iconic, it's not like they need a ton of introduction (even for people who are not immersed in the comics).
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:24 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

Does Hellboy count as a superhero movie ? Because Hellboy I and II are great.
posted by Pendragon at 1:28 PM on April 4, 2014 [11 favorites]

The problem with superheros is that they're iconic, so by definition, they can't develop. They can have arcs, but they then have to go back in the box, ready for next time.

On the other hand, we don't expect for Pooh to have a major emotional arc either. Christopher Robin, perhaps, but not Pooh.
posted by bonehead at 1:31 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

And, if you believe Moore, revisions, but that's about exploring archetypes, not development.
posted by bonehead at 1:32 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

DC, or rather, Warner Brothers, is still grappling with the legacy of Christopher Nolan. I like Nolan as a filmmaker, and his Batman movies are an impressive achievement, but his distinctive approach really isn't the way to go when you're trying to build an ongoing cinematic universe. Every movie shouldn't be about grim darkness and how heroism is a burden you're born for and can't escape.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:33 PM on April 4, 2014

I enjoyed Iron Man, because it was basically Robert Downey Jr. being a wise-ass with a thin veneer of superhero stuff on top.

This is, I guess, trivially true of all movies but the recent Marvel superhero movies really lay it out there: they're contests to see if the charisma of the lead actors can overcome the dumbness of the story. I think it's because the actors generally play larger-than-life versions of their own personas and the dumbness is so reverent and meticulous.

DC, on the other hand, tries to use directors to overcome their stories, and it works less well (probably heavily due to their choices of directors, and also that they are a lot more REVERENT) – their one real success happened when they backed into a pretty surprising performance of one of their villains – and that's important because great villain performances always beat great hero performances.
posted by furiousthought at 1:34 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies?

Yeah, same here, though there's also an added ambivalence about Captain America and how he's literally a hero from the World War II era. The "Greatest Generation" is pretty great, but it's a little overused at this point, and also frequently called upon to support American militaristic patriotism and point to an almost saint-like ideal era in America that in reality is probably a good thing that it was left behind 75 years ago.

And I also feel kind of weird that Winter Soldier is a villain in this movie. If World War II is lionized so much, then why is Russia's sacrifice always buried beneath Cold War tensions? And, it's also kind of a backhanded sort of thing for Marvel to (spoilers) have Bucky Barnes, an American, become the Winter Soldier. I mean, were the millions of other Russian soldiers who served in the era not worthy enough or something?

But, though I'm meh and overthink it, I'm going to end up seeing them because gf wants to and I don't want to be left out of the nerd watercooler talks.
posted by FJT at 1:37 PM on April 4, 2014

Something I loved about the film thematically—this next bit will be nerdily philosophical and have MAJOR WINTER SOLDIER SPOILERS AHEAD—in The Avengers one of the best little one-off scenes is the elderly German man refusing to back down before Loki. And in this movie that is largely about how Steve Rogers is a great guy who fights well (and will save us from our sins), there are also all these little moments of people refusing to back down in the face of injustice.

The terrified/brave computer tech and Agent 13 acting on "Captain's orders," the SHIELD pilots who try in vain to give Steve air support. The protagonists also have those moments of choice: Steve rejects the Oversight project outright, Sam throws in his support to a fugitive guy he barely knows, Natasha throws her mysterious past open to stop hiding behind secrets, Fury rejects Pierce's "we can rule together" schtick, and they all decide to burn a corrupt system to the ground rather than be part of that corruption. Compare the relationship of Bucky as Pierce's obedient, mindless weapon with Fury and Steve's relationship as antagonistic allies who push each other to be better. Even Bucky, in the end, chooses to save his friend, when Steve refuses to fight anymore.

The villains intend to protect people by taking away the dangerous unpredictability of their free will choices. But when given the chance, the people here choose to do good. I like that a lot.

HERE END THE MAJOR SPOILERS. And here's another bit of rambling in case you're skimming through the page so you're not accidentally spoiled by reading the end of a paragraph. I've been having and will be having an incredibly shitty time at work thanks to assorted bureaucracy, thus I cannot overstate the catharsis factor of watching Cap & Black Widow & Falcon grinding evil bureaucrats into paste for 2 hours last night while I didn't have to think about anything else. It was glorious.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:38 PM on April 4, 2014 [19 favorites]

Gosh, can't wait to see the movie this weekend and I love evil bureaucrats being ground into paste. I win twice!
posted by Atreides at 1:41 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I also feel kind of weird that Winter Soldier is a villain in this movie. If World War II is lionized so much, then why is Russia's sacrifice always buried beneath Cold War tensions?

Without spoiling too much of either: this movie makes some MAJOR changes to the Winter Soldier's origin story from the comics.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:42 PM on April 4, 2014

TALKING POINT: Steve Rogers and/or Natasha Romanov as Edward Snowden.

DISCUSS!
posted by nicebookrack at 1:43 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

When I was a kid I managed to be a totally ridiculous nerd without ever being into two of the biggest nerd things: comics and role playing games. So I'm only aware of the Marvel comics in the broadest sense. Second hand descriptions and movies.

And I fucking love -- LOVE -- what they're doing with the MCU. With the exception of IM2, I've enjoyed each one. They're well made on their own and the concept of a shared universe is totally novel to me. So... yeah. I can't wait to see Winter Soldier. And HOLY SHIT GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY.
posted by brundlefly at 1:43 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

But IM 2 and 3 are quite terrible no?

I recently watched IM 3, and it made me mad like watching Transformers made me mad.

Huh, IM3 is actually probably my favorite of the Iron Man movies. It's so unlike a lot of the rest of the MCU in many ways. A huge chunk of the movie is spent on Tony's PTSD, Pepper kicks ass, and the twist on the Mandarin all totally worked for me.
posted by kmz at 1:44 PM on April 4, 2014 [4 favorites]

there's also an added ambivalence about Captain America and how he's literally a hero from the World War II era. The "Greatest Generation" is pretty great, but it's a little overused at this point

I think that gets at what leaves me cold about both Thor and Captain America. They are both basically set pieces that you see in every third episode of Doctor Who and pretty much every other interesting fantasy/period thing happening everywhere right now. It's like someone had a focus group that said "people really like WW2 and also sword-and-sorcery fantasy" and the result was some kind of "I heard you like Game of Thrones and The Hobbit so I put some gandalf in your lannister and" ersatz whatever.

If they can figure out how to throw Katniss Everdeen in there, they will probably finally make the Black Widow movie everybody wants.
posted by Sara C. at 1:49 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, vampires. Are there vampires in the Marvel universe?

*googles*

Yeah, of course there are.
posted by brundlefly at 1:51 PM on April 4, 2014

The problem with superheros is that they're iconic, so by definition, they can't develop.

I wouldn't say this exactly. They are iconic, so development is secondary to the rest of what they do (which is generally restore upset order using their signature "moves." Iconic heroes develop very slowly as a result, and that development can always be reset by later events or ignored as needed.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:51 PM on April 4, 2014

Ducking out of this thread cause I haven't seen it yet but the first Cap movie turned my life around

(also yes the SSR pins are actual movie props and yes I am wearing them to the sequel showing on Monday.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:58 PM on April 4, 2014 [9 favorites]

I've been a fan of Sebastian Stan ever since Kings , so this is good.

Sebastian Stan's mom in Kings was played by Susanna Thompson, who now (excellently) plays Oliver Queen's mom Moira on the DC superhero show Arrow. Bucky Barnes and Green Arrow are brothers, you guys!!! It all makes sense now!!!
posted by nicebookrack at 1:58 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

FJT: "And I also feel kind of weird that Winter Soldier is a villain in this movie. If World War II is lionized so much, then why is Russia's sacrifice always buried beneath Cold War tensions? And, it's also kind of a backhanded sort of thing for Marvel to (spoilers) have Bucky Barnes, an American, become the Winter Soldier. I mean, were the 5 million other Russian soldiers who served in the era not worthy enough or something?"

The name "Winter Soldier" isn't a reference to Russia or the Cold War (at least not directly), but to the Vietnam-era hearings of the same name, which in turn were nicknamed in reference to Thomas Paine's "summer soldiers and sunshine patriots". Here's an article all about it.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:59 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

( holy shit I have had blonde highlights for TWO YEARS damn.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on April 4, 2014

I just realized that while The First Avenger didn't turn my life around per se, I did leave the theater midway through to for a phone call where I found out I would get to move to DC and pursue my dream job, so that might be a reason I think so well of it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:07 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

I won't be seeing this until I can stream it, so if everybody could stop talking about it until then that'd be great.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:15 PM on April 4, 2014

I'd argue that icons can only develop as the the audience conceives of them changes. Cap has always meant freedom, but what that means has changed over the years. He's in a conspiracy thriller now because one of the things that currently matters is accountability and government overreach. In the 70s, in contrast, he was more about racial equality and desegregation.
posted by bonehead at 2:18 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

If they can figure out how to throw Katniss Everdeen in there, they will probably finally make the Black Widow movie everybody wants.

Why not? (a 2006 thread on MeFi has severe linkrot) but the names of crossovers mentioned are worth googling. Star Trek/X-Men is daft.
posted by artlung at 2:19 PM on April 4, 2014

He's in a conspiracy thriller now because one of the things that currently matters is accountability and government overreach. In the 70s, in contrast, he was more about racial equality and desegregation.

There's always been an element of that. He punched out Watergate right in the middle of the "equality and desegregation" era.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:21 PM on April 4, 2014

I'd like to discuss the fourth link for a moment. This concept of "megafranchises" is a bit disturbing, because it leads to even fewer original movies being made. But if this is the next evolutionary step for tent-pole films, at least Marvel has shown that it can be done right. At its best a megafranchise can have lots of different characters and styles that occasionally interact in unpredictable ways. At its worst they're just making movies to fill slots in a release schedule.

Now everybody wants to have their own superhero universe. I think I mostly agree with io9 on their chances.

- Marvel is the leader in this, and shows no signs of slowing down.

- Sony only has Spider-Man, and while that's fine for a long running series, his particular corner of the Marvel Universe doesn't have any other characters that could support their own films. I can't imagine getting excited to see the latest Prowler or Black Cat movie, and Venom doesn't work as a protagonist unless you change the character completely. (See any 90's Venom comic for supporting evidence.)

- Fox has a golden crown with both X-Men and Fantastic Four. They could easily build a megafranchise from these characters, but it would work best if they make a clean break from the movies that have come before. Shoehorning the existing X-Men and Wolverine movies into a continuity that they were never built for is just going to create a lot of problems for them at the start.

- Warner Brothers has all of the DC characters, so they can create any number of megafranchises or franchises and make superhero movies from now until Doomsday. But I've seen no evidence that the people who make the movies understand how most of their characters work. (IE: the godawful Man of Steel movie.) Rather than make different franchises in different styles that occasionally cross over, it looks like everything is going to be as bleak and unheroic as possible. So their chances for long term success aren't good without some big changes behind the scenes.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:22 PM on April 4, 2014

the names of crossovers mentioned are worth googling

I didn't so much mean a formal crossover, but that they would figure out how to distill what it is people like so much about the Katniss aesthetic and then in turn figure out how to attach that to the Black Widow character. Because "what kind of stuff are people into already" seems to really inform the settings, tropes, and overall look of the various Marvel Universe films.
posted by Sara C. at 2:28 PM on April 4, 2014

Because "what kind of stuff are people into already" seems to really inform the settings, tropes, and overall look of the various Marvel Universe films.

Cap and Thor are two of the original and most iconic Avengers. The stuff about focus groups doesn't make any sense if you look at a timeline of when the properties you mentioned came out.
posted by kmz at 2:43 PM on April 4, 2014

Venom doesn't work as a protagonist unless you change the character completely.

They already have. Brock Venom's been gone for a long, long time. The latest incarnation, Flash Thompson's Agent Venom, might work as a standalone if they could come up with a compelling villain. His solo series was good but petered off after a while.

Sara C., you clearly don't care for these films and it's not like we're going to magically talk you into liking them, so what do you hope to accomplish here by continually posting about how much you don't like them and how much you think they suck? If you don't like them you don't like them, but there's no reason to stay in a thread specifically about these movies to tell everyone that.

For the other humbugs the problem seems to be looking for things (like complex character development or political messages) that these films are not designed and don't pretend to deliver. Its best to to take Roger Ebert's advice to approach a film on its own terms and ask if they succeed as fun comic book movies rather than as Great Cinema, which they clearly aren't.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:44 PM on April 4, 2014 [8 favorites]

what do you hope to accomplish here by continually posting about how much you don't like them and how much you think they suck?

Where did I ever do this?

The worst I said about any of the movies is "meh".

Which, wow, if that's threadshitting, I just... is everyone on planet earth required to have an orgasm at the mere thought of a Marvel movie or something?
posted by Sara C. at 2:46 PM on April 4, 2014

And "people like WWII movies"? When was the last time there was a blockbuster WWII movie? Saving Private Ryan?
posted by kmz at 2:47 PM on April 4, 2014

Mod note: Ok, at this point I will suggest that the thread move away from discussing whether or why Sara C. is lukewarm on these movies. Folks including Sara C can take the "meh" as read. Feel free to discuss other aspects of the post.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:51 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

Marvel has always been quick to incorporate pop cultural memes when it suits them. SHIELD wouldn't exist if it weren't for James Bond.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:52 PM on April 4, 2014

"These movies are artistic Jell-O! Science fiction is anti-intellectual claptrap! ...A cinematic toy store for the feeble minded! If kids knew what was good for 'em, they'd see REAL films! Nonviolent films like...like..."Tootsie!""
posted by happyroach at 2:57 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

Turns out, Jedi Knights do wait fifteen years (or more) for a sequel.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:59 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

In retrospect it's really great that Marvel lost control of the X-Men, Spider-man, and FF IP. It forced them to dig a little deeper and give second-tier characters a chance to shine. Growing up in the 90s Cap, Thor, Hulk, and Iron Man were jokes and the Avengers was a storehouse for C-listers. It's been really weird to see them become household names.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:06 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also, vampires. Are there vampires in the Marvel universe?

There's a trilogy of movies that's all about Marvel vampires. And they're not bad, either.
posted by linux at 3:17 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

Just throwing this out there: The Punisher/Black Widow anime they put out last month is outright terrible. I would even recommend it to an anime-obsessed teenager. If you are looking for a Black Widow fix because of Scarlett Jo, this sure ain't it. Not even the same character.
posted by Catblack at 3:20 PM on April 4, 2014

Heading out to see it in a few minutes. I like Evans' portrayal of the character and love the idea that they've done this movie as a seventies paranoia thriller. (And added Redford to the cast for extra seventies vibe).
posted by octothorpe at 3:28 PM on April 4, 2014

There's a trilogy of movies that's all about Marvel vampires. And they're not bad, either.

A trilogy? There would need to be a third Blade film for it to qualify as a trilogy, but there isn't one, so we should move on. Right?
posted by brundlefly at 3:30 PM on April 4, 2014

Denial?
posted by artlung at 3:32 PM on April 4, 2014

You can't take Blade Trinity's Ryan Reynolds naked in chains away from me, I won't let you.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:36 PM on April 4, 2014 [5 favorites]

What I don't get about the Blade movies is why they STARTED with #3? Shouldn't there have been 2 before that? And why Blade wasn't even the main character. I mean, they could've titled it "Hannibal King is basically Deadpool only pretty" and that would've probably sold even MORE TICKETS.
posted by FritoKAL at 3:51 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
posted by brundlefly at 3:56 PM on April 4, 2014

My biggest problem with Winter Soldier (and most of these movies) is that it never feels like anyone is in actual peril. In this one, whenever someone was in trouble, there was some gadget (mostly unknown to the audience) that gets them out of the jam. At least in the Bond movies they introduce all the gadgets up front. Here, it just feels like deus ex machina.

Also, soundtrack trying too hard to be Dark Knight at times.

It was a well-crafted, but somewhat bland movie. Maybe 15-20 minutes too long. Redford is good despite one unintentionally laugh-out loud scene in his house.
posted by starman at 3:58 PM on April 4, 2014

Blade is the best.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:13 PM on April 4, 2014

Wait, am I the only one that's a bit excited for the Big Hero 6, coming out in November this year?

Disney Animation's been hitting out of the park, and this combined with a Blade-Runner Esque San Fransokyo has at least got me curious.

And adding this with the other films, means there are 5 theatrical releases with Marvel characters coming out this year (Captain America, X-Men, Spider-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Big Hero 6). I think DC has a lot of catching up to do.
posted by FJT at 4:19 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

the result was some kind of "I heard you like Game of Thrones and The Hobbit so I put some gandalf in your lannister and" ersatz whatever.

I'd watch that.
posted by ersatz at 4:33 PM on April 4, 2014

"people really like WW2 and also sword-and-sorcery fantasy" and the result is Captain America and Thor. Amen. I dig those characters though.

Comics are awesome in that they borrow from EVERYTHING. SF: Guardians of the Galaxy. Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde: Hulk. Vampires: Blade. Westerns: Jonah Hex. Mix and match!

Taken to the absurd extreme in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comics. Avoid the movie as it is terrible.
posted by artlung at 4:51 PM on April 4, 2014

I went to see Winter Soldier last night, and I was actually impressed. Admittedly, I love Chris Evans as Captain America, so I wouldn't have been super harsh on the film if it had just been a fun little romp. It really surpassed my expectations. I found myself engrossed in the plot, not just the things going boom. Also, Falcon and Black Widow were excellent. I wouldn't call it perfect, but it was very enjoyable.

I just can't see Warner Bros and DC managing to get anywhere near the sort of success Marvel is managing. Even though I enjoyed the first two Nolan Batman films, the third one was just not good, and Man of Steel put me to sleep a half an hour in. They just don't seem to know how to make their heroes heroic, or make their comic book movies fun to watch at all. I've always wanted a Wonder Woman movie, but at this point I'm glad they aren't making it, because they'd probably have Wonder Woman committing genocide or something so she'd be Dark and Edgy. They just don't seem to have a clue what to do with their characters at all.
posted by madelf at 5:20 PM on April 4, 2014

The live-action DC Cinematic Universe really frustrates me because DC has done shared universes so well with its TV properties. The DC Animated Universe has been setting the bar for DECADES, and live-action Arrow's season 2 has been outstanding, with a Flash series on the way from the same creators.

The idea's been batted back and forth about folding Arrow / Flash into the DCCU. I'd love to see some of the Arrow villains on the big screen—John Barrowman as Merlyn, Michael Rowe as Deadshot, and especially Manu Bennett as Deathstroke. But Man of Steel and the Batman/Superman movie news are a mess that leave me cold. Maybe DC should stick to the TV success that Marvel hasn't found.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:40 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, we don't expect for Pooh to have a major emotional arc either. Christopher Robin, perhaps, but not Pooh.

In the Winnie the Pooh Movie that I play in my head after reading "Pooh's Honey Adventure" for the umpteenth time, Christopher Robin becomes an evil developer who clear-cuts the Hundred Acre Wood.

In the opening scene, we see he has a bear skin rug in front of his fireplace...
posted by madajb at 6:17 PM on April 4, 2014

Learn the History of the Term “Winter Soldier” and Why Ed Brubaker Used the Name in Captain America
posted by homunculus at 6:17 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

A Reawakened Captain America Has Some Important Things On His To-Do List
posted by homunculus at 6:18 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is, I guess, trivially true of all movies but the recent Marvel superhero movies really lay it out there: they're contests to see if the charisma of the lead actors can overcome the dumbness of the story.

That's basically what I want from a summer blockbuster, though.
I want a bunch of snappy one-liners, some gratuitous explosions, and a barely hanging together plot.
I want movie stars, not actors.

I don't want dark brooding character studies and I don't want to to remember 10 different character names. I want a great villian (as was mentioned up thread).
Mostly though, and I think this is where the sequels go off the rails, is I don't want the big action set pieces to be the focus of the movie.

I think this is why I liked the first Pirates of the Caribbean and none of the sequels. Johnny Depp overacting is a great way to spend 2 hours at the drive-in.
Johnny Depp attempting to sell an ever more complicated back story, not so much.
posted by madajb at 6:29 PM on April 4, 2014

I keep reading that people thought Thor 2 was the worst of these films but how can that be? Thor 1 was one of the worst movies I've ever seen and Thor 2 benefits just from not being Thor1. Honestly, they should just stop making Thor movies and use Tom Hiddleston better.
posted by evilDoug at 6:31 PM on April 4, 2014 [3 favorites]

As much as Evans seems to be angsty about his roles, he at least seems to be enjoying some of them. For instance, I think this was the best scene from The Losers.
posted by A dead Quaker at 6:34 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

Captain America has officially seen War Games. Conclusion: Avengers Movie Nights at the Tower are canon!
posted by nicebookrack at 6:39 PM on April 4, 2014 [6 favorites]

Maybe Evans's angst about Captain America is a factor in Sebastian Stan's 9(!)-picture deal as Bucky Barnes. The Death of Captain America would make a powerful Avengers 2 or 3 finale, and there's even comics-canon support for a replacement actor in the role.

Then if Evans decides he wants to come back, there's comics-canon for that, too. Oh, comics.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:55 PM on April 4, 2014 [2 favorites]

It was a well made superhero movie. Well directed, good CG, competent action. Overall pretty bland though. I laughed a handful of times, but mostly just sat there watching each plot beat come in one by one. A bunch of characters I didn't care about. Scarlett Johansen being herself, Samuel L. Jackson being himself. Chris Evans does a pretty good job portraying a character who's paper thin. Falcon was the only really human character, and he was sort of an afterthought. It built on lore which doesn't really make that much sense, and which I don't give a fuck about. I will say that the Winter Soldier was cool, and the arc was satisfying.
posted by codacorolla at 8:08 PM on April 4, 2014

Just got back from seeing it. Liked it quite a bit but would really love it if all these type of movies didn't have a fist fight on a metal catwalk in the third act. Lots of chatty villains too.

On the other hand, Jenny Agutter! Swoon.
posted by octothorpe at 9:16 PM on April 4, 2014

The movie was pretty good, though the winter soldier himself was a bit of a downer. Fantastic action. Good characters and development with Black Widow and the Falcon. Curious to see how this affects Agents of Shield.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:33 PM on April 4, 2014

Just got back from it. I kept my expectations low and was not disappointed in them. I only had a couple of real "whoops, stop, can't believe that" even with the "it's superheroes, just go with it" approach I try to take. Mostly, really, they had all that machine gun crap in DC and nobody noticed? The fight scenes and CGI were well-done. (Plus Jenny Agutter love!)

The SHIELD half of the movie was really good; the Cap half was decent in large part because of the bromantic chemistry of Mackie and Evans (which helped make Cap's MAN PAIN work by relating it to something else). Sebastian Stan was totally wasted, and the thing I can't say on Facebook without enraging the fannish hordes is that he just does nothing for me and could not make me care about Bucky in the slightest other than as a plot device to see what Cap was going to do.

I feel like I got my money's worth, and that's achievement enough.
posted by immlass at 9:58 PM on April 4, 2014

Lots of chatty villains too.

This is true. But one moment that stood out to delight me was the cheerfully monologuing villain who it turned out was stalling for time. And he would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for that meddling vibranium shield!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:18 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

If it makes you feel better, Sara C., I am also meh about the MCU films. I saw Thor 1 and the first half of this season's Agents of SHIELD and that killed most of any interest in it.

What's infuriating about it is that I love comics, and have worked in the field, and if you're in having orgasms over Marvel superheroes seems to be par for the course these days. I wish I could like it more but it's difficult.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 10:40 PM on April 4, 2014

oh wait I forgot the time I had a beer with the hulk
posted by The Whelk at 10:55 PM on April 4, 2014

I'm puzzled by people lumping IM2 and IM3 together, when to my mind one is a muddled piece of trash and one is hilarious and brilliant. IM3 is worth it just for the icily sarcastic banter between Robert Downey Jr and that kid.

Strokes and folks, but it's a rare listing of the Marvel movies that doesn't put 2 near the bottom and 3 near the top.
posted by Sebmojo at 10:59 PM on April 4, 2014 [1 favorite]

If it makes you feel better, Sara C., I am also meh about the MCU films. I saw Thor 1 and the first half of this season's Agents of SHIELD and that killed most of any interest in it.


Thor is middling and AoS is fairly bad. However I'd say that if you've seen Iron Man 1 and the Avengers and didn't like either then the MCU doesn't have much to offer for you?
posted by Sebmojo at 11:01 PM on April 4, 2014

TOR.com: The Age of Heroes is Here. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:31 PM on April 4, 2014

We just got back from seeing it. We described the scene nice bookrack (spoilers) talked about as "the moral center of the film". A big part of Captain America is who and what he inspires (aside: this is why Superman can't kill the bad guy).

I grew up a DC guy, so while I like the MCU, I'm not emotionally attached to it. My hero is Green Arrow. I am quite happy with the Arrowverse, even as it makes significant changes to the story lines.

I liked CA:WS, but I didn't love it. It was a pretty good SHIELD movie with a Cap focus and not nearly enough Winter Soldier. Captain America: Winter Soldier should've started with the 2nd post-credits scene.
posted by Mad_Carew at 11:42 PM on April 4, 2014

I saw Thor 1 and the first half of this season's Agents of SHIELD and that killed most of any interest in it.

FYI, you've the worst examples of the franchise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:01 AM on April 5, 2014

A big part of Captain America is who and what he inspires

I have a tiny secret theory that in an alternate alternate universe, Fred and Steve Rogers are the same person, or at least related. "Be the kind of person Mr. Rogers believes I can be" works as a daily goal, whether I'm punching Nazis or being a good neighbor.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:42 AM on April 5, 2014 [11 favorites]

A Reawakened Captain America Has Some Important Things On His To-Do List

his to-do list in the UK was a little different. #priorities

I can't find examples for Australia (though I've heard of it).
posted by cendawanita at 2:04 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

TALKING POINT: Steve Rogers and/or Natasha Romanov as Edward Snowden.

"Captain America: The Winter Soldier" Is About Obama's Terror-Suspect Kill List, Say the Film's Directors
posted by homunculus at 2:05 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is anybody else just completely meh on most of these movies? Maybe I'm not seeing the right ones, or not seeing them the right way (I tend to only watch what pops up on streaming services, and only watch them on my TV at home). But I just... meh.

This for me too. I guess I just don't really get it. These movies sort of fall for me into the same category as, I don't know, Everybody Loves Raymond or Dan Brown novels-- fine as a timekiller, but it genuinely mystifies me that people get straight up excited about them.
posted by threeants at 4:04 AM on April 5, 2014

If Dan Brown and Everybody Loves Raymond are fine as timekillers then I think I see what the problem is.
posted by fullerine at 4:38 AM on April 5, 2014

It's important to realize Chris Evans is making about $300K a year. The grumbling comes down to, this is good money, but not movie star money. Marvel has figured out how to make the movie star dream not particularly profitable.
posted by effugas at 5:41 AM on April 5, 2014

I'm sure that it's tough to scrape by on $300K a year. Maybe he should get a roommate to help pay the rent.
posted by octothorpe at 5:49 AM on April 5, 2014

I imagine that would be pretty galling when the movies are making hundreds of millions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 AM on April 5, 2014

I guess so but I'm still not going to get too upset the plight of the not rich enough.
posted by octothorpe at 6:01 AM on April 5, 2014

It's important to realize Chris Evans is making about $300K a year.

Really? How? He should fire everyone.
posted by fullerine at 6:41 AM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

I saw the movie yesterday and I've never read the comic books, haven't seen Thor 2, don't watch Agents of the Shield, and did see the Avengers and Iron Man films, but in general I don't follow (or understand totally) this universe of comics. I liked it a lot though, probably more than the first film because they didn't actually focus too much on Captain America being a frozen guy getting used to the world. It was more like an Avengers 2.5 movie since it focused on a larger story than just the Captain.

About the only thing I didn't like in it is how the fight scenes are filmed with a herky jerky camera. I know they do it so the actors can look like they're doing a better job fighting than they are, it artificially "speeds" up the action, and makes it cheaper to shoot a knock down drag out fight, but it got old after half a dozen fights featured this filming technique.

I should probably watch the other related superhero movies, to get more of the story.
posted by mathowie at 7:14 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, the other thing I loved is they didn't sexualize Scarlett Johansson too much. I remember the weird Avengers reviews and social criticism of said reviews afterwards where male reviewers said she didn't have any skills beyond her looks, etc, but they made her character a key part of the story, gave her lots of lines and interesting things to do, and I hope to god there aren't movie reviewers tripping over themselves to make jokes about her leather catsuit this time around, because there's no call for it, she got a well-written part that barely played into her looks and I'm frankly impressed by the screenwriters for being big enough to do that (I stayed after the credits to see if Joss Whedon was involved, figuring he'd be the guy to give her a good role instead of treating her like set dressing).
posted by mathowie at 7:18 AM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

Bad news about that, I'm afraid: Every review of Black Widow in 'Captain America' is wrong
posted by cendawanita at 7:32 AM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

Joss Wheadon directed the stinger with the twins.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 AM on April 5, 2014

I was pretty impressed with Johansson in this and it seemed almost as much of a Black Widow movie as a Captain America one. She's on screen almost as much as he is and is much more in control of most scenes that they're both in.
posted by octothorpe at 8:06 AM on April 5, 2014 [4 favorites]

That "Every review of Black Widow in 'Captain America' is wrong" article is worth a FPP of its own.

I loved Natasha in this: smart, funny, and relaxed enough to tease Steve and Sam as a friend. Her storyline passes the Mako Mori Test: she grieves for and seeks to avenge her friend Fury, and there's a subtle, complicated struggle with her own cynical perception of herself. Nat realizes that "going straight" in SHIELD, and HYDRA's betrayal of that, mean more to her than she thought; she accepts Steve's offer of friendship while accepting that she does have ideals she'll fight and risk herself for, not just assignments.

I'm not sure until rewatch if the movie passed the Bechdel Test, but either way it still had at least three major female characters—Natasha, Maria Hill, and Agent 13—portrayed as capable, proactive, and not sexualized. In a superhero movie ostensibly about Steve's Epic Bromances, that is genuinely impressive. And it makes the common writer refrain of "Oh, we just couldn't fit enough / any women characters in the story" so much patriarchal bullshit.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:56 AM on April 5, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'm not sure until rewatch if the movie passed the Bechdel Test...

In the operating room viewing area/waiting, I think Natasha and Agent Hill traded a few words about ballistics.

Johansson has done a such a fantastic job of defining the character in Avengers and WS, that you can't really imagine anyone else playing the role at this point. She's had a major part in Avengers and WS and it's been said she has a major part in Avengers 2. I can't tell if they'r egging to tell her story as part of other movies or are leading to her own solo movie.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:23 AM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

Speaking of Agent 13, here is a bit with her character that's been annoying me. MAJOR SPOILERS FOR EMILY VANCAMP'S Winter Soldier STORYLINE, TRA LA LA

IIRC this is what we learn that may be related to Emily Vancamp's role:
- she's introduced as Steve's neighbor "Kate," a nurse washing her scrubs who has an insomniac aunt. Natasha encourages Steve to ask her out.
- she's revealed as Agent 13, an undercover SHIELD agent assigned by Fury to protect Steve. Is she ever named as anything but Agent 13? If not, there's no indication whether or not "Kate" is a pseudonym, and/or if she's really working as a nurse.
- At the film's end, Nat encourages Steve to ask out a woman she knows: a nurse named Sharon.

Was this just an Easter egg injoke, or are we meant to make the connection in-story that nurse Kate = SHIELD Agent 13 = nurse Sharon Carter, who is Peggy Carter's niece?
It felt like the narrative threads were in place, but they were missing a reason to tie them together unless you were already looking to do so—Peggy Carter doesn't mention having a niece, for instance, so there's no in-story reason to link her with "Kate's" mention of her aunt.

Are we also meant to assume that Natasha knows who Kate/13/Sharon is? Because it does make ongoing Matchmaker Natasha even funnier if she's been trying to set Steve up with the same woman under at least two of her hidden identities. Spy love!

HERE ENDETH THE SPOILERS
tra la la la la
posted by nicebookrack at 10:25 AM on April 5, 2014

I went to this last weekend (Irish release dates) and loved it. Thought it was a great addition to the Avengers 'verse.
posted by Fence at 11:54 AM on April 5, 2014

Spolier-y Thoughts Ahead

The only person other than Nick Fury who could command SHIELD is Steve Rogers. Any other director would know that Steve could shut them down.

This has been your spoiler-warned thought the morning after seeing the movie. Thank you, and have a nice day.
posted by Mad_Carew at 12:20 PM on April 5, 2014

Coulson could keep Steve Rogers from shutting down SHIELD by asking him nicely not to. But Steve could shut down SHIELD by asking Coulson nicely to do it, so I suppose we're at an impasse.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:25 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's important to realize Chris Evans is making about $300K a year. The grumbling comes down to, this is good money, but not movie star money. Marvel has figured out how to make the movie star dream not particularly profitable.

Marvel's film dealings are quickly becoming notorious for being almost insultingly stingy to the actors. The story I heard is that they sign actors up for low fees but lots of guaranteed appearances, with the original intention being that the actor gets paid the same whether they're headlining the film or making a two-minute cameo. Of course, in the wake of Robert Downey Jr making a truckload of money by negotiating a share of the profits on Avengers Assemble, there's been quite a bit of renegotiation by the other headliners. It looks like Marvel's alleged history of stiffing people involved in The Avengers is continuing to this day.

Semi-interesting aside: apparently, Terence Howard got paid more than Robert Downey Jr for Iron Man.
posted by peteyjlawson at 3:22 PM on April 5, 2014 [3 favorites]

Just saw the movie. It was enjoyable and I agree with some of the comments about having better women characters like Black Widow and the movie showing a little of Captain America's core character.

BUT there's one part of the movie that I'm not sure if they're trying to set something up down the line OR if it's because it's a popcorn movie. And also some other stuff that bugged me.

(LOTSA SPOILERS)

In the end, when Black Widow is at the hearing, a Senator tells her that she's released a lot of information on the Internet, and this includes information that would implicate her and SHIELD in various crimes. The government could use this information to bring her (and Captain America) to trial. And her response is that they could do that, but they won't because they need individuals like her to do all the dirty security work.

So, after Steve makes all his speeches about doing the right thing, the last word is actually that it's better to be powerful and needed so that you'll never have to answer for your crimes? I mean, I guess that does fit in the movie, because those Nazi scientists probably never paid for their crimes since SHIELD "needed" their research. Like I said, maybe this was intentional because they want to set up Civil War or another story down the line.

But, I'm not really sure about that either, since when the federal government has appeared in Marvel's films, it's a toothless and corrupt joke meant to be contrasted to the competent and principled good guys. I'm remembering the "privatize world peace" hearing in the beginning of Iron Man II, which featured the corrupt politician played by Gary Shandling (who we discover is in HYDRA, in the Winter Soldier movie).

So, was the post-SHIELD hearing that Black Widow sat in just a throwaway meant to show the government as ineffective and only respecting (fearing) power once again?

And, one more thought on the federal government in the MCU: Maybe Gary Shandling was meant to symboilze HYDRA's infiltration into the US government, and now that HYDRA'S Washington unit has been destroyed, the US government will be seen as more competent in future Marvel films?

And, I know I'm gonna get put on a SHIELD kill-list for this, but I actually liked Thor: Dark World a little better than CA: Winter Soldier. Because Thor knew it was a big dumb movie, and just smushed a bunch sci-fi and fantasy stuff together that looked cool, and it had fun doing it. Winter Soldier is trying to be relevant with drone warfare and terrorism, but once you start throwing real stuff in a story, I start comparing it to the real world. If it's done well, I'm willing to suspend, but if not, the whole thing falls a part.

Like, I get revealing SHIELD's secrets was great, but why is SHIELD disbanding seen as good? I mean, it was far from perfect and infiltrated by HYDRA, but at the very least SHIELD reported to the World Security Council that (judging from the accents and nationalities of the actors that portrayed them) seemed to consist of members from across the world. Which, kind of makes it more like the intel arm of the UN or a spec-ops version of the IMF (no, not that one) than the NSA in some ways. So, now instead of reporting the WSC, you have a bunch of assets like Black Widow and Nick Fury who REPORT TO NOBODY. How is that better?! Wouldn't it be better to do some deep organizational reform, be more open and transparent, and increase international participation? (Even in the real world, denazification didn't lead to the Morgenthau Plan)

I know, I know, it's just a movie, and if they tried to get any more realistic we'd get some version of "QUICK! TO THE BAT-FAX!".

(end credits roll)

Oh yeah, and of course we get probably the most prominent use of product placement outside of an Adam Sandler movie with the Apple Store scene, complete with a nice shot of the Genius Bar logo, a sign identifying the computer Black Widow was using as the "Macbook Pro", and a helpful blue shirt clad Genius that talks to Captain America.

(more credits roll)

This did get a laugh out of me given recent news of NSA shenanigans with the iPhone.
posted by FJT at 5:51 PM on April 5, 2014

Yesterday morning, I woke up mad depressed and spent a couple hours trying to convince myself that I needed to be in sweat pants all day. Then I thought, "Dude, you can walk to the theater right now to see a multimillion dollar motion picture that contains Batroc the Leaper" and I got out of bed right away because we're living in a golden age.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:07 PM on April 5, 2014 [12 favorites]

Like, I get revealing SHIELD's secrets was great, but why is SHIELD disbanding seen as good?

Because they don't know who is Hydra and who isn't. So burn it all down and stArt from scratch with know quantities.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 PM on April 5, 2014

No one else caught the Pulp Fiction reference? YOU GUYS. Hand over your film geek cards, NOW.

I really liked the movie, especially because it had the temerity to suggest that "order" (read: security) was not something worth sacrificing freedom for. And, yes, ScarJo was just fine, and the film critics who think that she's just a walking catsuit can eat a bag of dicks.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:10 PM on April 5, 2014 [2 favorites]

I groaned at the Pulp Fiction reference; thought that was a pretty gratuitous bit of fan service.
posted by octothorpe at 7:25 PM on April 5, 2014

Because they don't know who is Hydra and who isn't. So burn it all down and stArt from scratch with know quantities.

(more spoilers)

But, the thousands of employees that work at SHIELD don't just go away. The alternative of just letting them go is worse. You either open up the possibility of HYDRA agents infiltrating other agencies like the CIA, or you prevent that by blacklisting every former employee of SHIELD from working in any military, intelligence, law enforcement, or even government organization.

Having them all continued to be employed at SHIELD at least keeps everything under one house, where they can still be watched. And HYDRA's defeat at the end of Winter Soldier probably devastated some members of HYDRA, maybe lowered morale enough that they'll reveal other cell members through interview or interrogation. In addition, it's very well possible that in such a large organization like SHIELD, not all people who work with HYDRA are ideological fanatics. This means, they can be cajoled or threatened by other means.

And, despite HYDRA supposedly having deep infiltration of SHIELD, 4 of the 5 World Security Council members were clearly not a part of HYDRA. And finally, it's possible that HYDRA was just bluffing at the extent of their infiltration, and Captain America disbanding SHIELD may be just what they wanted as a backup plan.
posted by FJT at 7:32 PM on April 5, 2014

Yay, Agents of SHIELD is finally going to be relevant again! In that the fallout from TWS has to be huge for the series. How do you have Agents of SHIELD when there isn't a SHIELD anymore?

I don't know how much narrative interplay there will be between the two storylines, though IIRC the next few episodes are supposed to take place right before/during/after TWS. But maybe Fury was hellbent on resurrecting Coulson because he already suspected SHIELD of shadiness, and it's hard to doubt the loyalty of an agent who's already died for the cause.

I would sit through many terrible commercials to give AoS the budget to have Coulson go into Fury's secret recuperation lair and run into Captain America on the way out.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:45 PM on April 5, 2014

But, the thousands of employees that work at SHIELD don't just go away.

It's a comic book movie, so yeah, they do in some way. I'm not being glib here, just viewing it as thematically as opposed to strictly through reality.

I doubt SHIELD the agency is actually going away, but what'll exactly happen is up for question. This week's Agents of SHIELD should shed some light on that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:48 PM on April 5, 2014

Meanwhile, on Agents of SHIELD! (No spoilers.)
posted by nicebookrack at 7:51 PM on April 5, 2014

Just came back from the film, and it's very enjoyable. A lot talkier than the others, I'd say, but I kind of like that it wasn't trying to do the Joss quip-a-minute thing. Anthony Mackie has a ton of charisma and I'd like to see a lot more Falcon. I admit that I lol'd at the Pulp Fiction gag.

My standard gripe about the MCU: now that they'ved tied together the franchises so much, how hard would it be to have a single throwaway line to explain why, say, Iron Man isn't swooping in to lend a hand? Or where Hulk or Hawkeye's been? (Is there anything to the necklace Black Widow is wearing, or have I been swayed by shippers gone overboard?)
posted by TwoStride at 8:05 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd think that any kind of excuse for the absence of the rest of the Avengers would sound kind of lame and take you out of the moment. Better to just not talk about it since the real answer is that they can't afford Downey, Jr. for every movie.
posted by octothorpe at 8:11 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

...explain why, say, Iron Man isn't swooping in to lend a hand? Or where Hulk or Hawkeye's been? (Is there anything to the necklace Black Widow is wearing, or have I been swayed by shippers gone overboard?)

At the end of the Avengers, Fury told the council that they had scattered to the four winds. Iron Man is unpredictable. Hulk is unstable and unpredictable (Though Tony and Bruce seem to be hanging out which sounds like a fun short). The events in the movie seem to happen quickly, so Hawkeye could have been off somewhere doing something. Ultimately, it's not important where they are other than they couldn't be there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on April 5, 2014

how hard would it be to have a single throwaway line to explain why, say, Iron Man isn't swooping in to lend a hand? Or where Hulk or Hawkeye's been?

This is a bit of a built-in superhero comic problem, though. "Really, Spider-Man, you're going to fight Galactus by yourself, because it's your book? You're not going to call the Fantastic Four at all to see if they're in town? Good luck with that." This is also how Wolverine ends up on 7 teams at the same time.

I dunno, I was mostly fine with the Stark & Banner & Strange namedrops we got. There's a fine line, especially as the MCU cast gets bigger, between putting enough continuity nods to stay connected and turning it into a bout of "As you know, Bob, we totally have War Machine and the Hulk on speed-dial!"

Though I would've killed for a status update on actual SHIELD agent Hawkeye. My theory: he's on vacation in Italy, where he runs into Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and everything goes to hell.

(Is there anything to the necklace Black Widow is wearing, or have I been swayed by shippers gone overboard?)

I am torn between my ships of wanting acknowledgement of the Hawkeye/Black Widow sexual tension and wanting only my OTP of Black Widow/Kicking People In The Face.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:19 PM on April 5, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is a bit of a built-in superhero comic problem, though.

Not really, when you consider most superheroes could be anywhere in the universe. The possibilities are endless, depending on the specific situation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:20 PM on April 5, 2014

Yay, Agents of SHIELD is finally going to be relevant again!

no joke, the 'toughest' part post-Cap2 was my inability to talk about what it means to AoS because no one I know is still watching it.

this coming week shall be extremely interesting re: SHIELD shennanigans of last week. I can't decide if it will be concurrent with the movie or still just before.
posted by cendawanita at 1:58 AM on April 6, 2014

Hawkeye was in Brooklyn, beating up Bros in tracksuits.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:33 AM on April 6, 2014 [12 favorites]

Bro, is bad idea to mess with Captain America's freedom, bro.

I can't articulate how happy Fractionesque Hawkguy in Age of Ultron would make me. The entire plot can be "Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver start off evil, are won over by Clint's winsome Everydude charm. Clint shoots Ultron dead with boomerang arrow. Shawarma party on the roof! THE END."
posted by nicebookrack at 7:09 AM on April 6, 2014 [5 favorites]

Fuck no, that one issue of Hawkguy ruined parties on the roof forever.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:15 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

They must TAKE BACK THE NIGHT ROOF, DAMMIT

The second AoU credits stinger should be Wanda feeding pizza to Pizza Dog. Lucky puppy!

I feel like I haven't gushed enough about Falcon in this thread. SAM WAS DEVASTATINGLY CHARMING, GUYS. No one's had that much fun playing superhero since RDJ. I want Mackie in every movie now. Like Stan Lee, at least one scene of Falcon swooping through the background, stealing Thor's Pop-Tarts off a table or something.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:51 AM on April 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

I remember the weird Avengers reviews and social criticism of said reviews afterwards where male reviewers said she didn't have any skills beyond her looks, etc

After The Avengers came out, kids at jeoc jr's elementary school were playing non-stop Avengers at recess. She said she usually tried to play Hawkeye, and that nobody wanted to be Black Widow because "she didn't do anything in the movie." I didn't think much about it at the time, but when we re-watched The Avengers a few months ago, I realized how completely untrue that is.

She goes to get Bruce Banner, and even with the armed backup, this is demonstrated to be very risky and dangerous. She outsmarts Loki to figure out his plans on the ship. Then she takes down a bunch of aliens in the Battle of New York with nothing but her mad skills. Watching the battle scene again it really hit me that she doesn't have any of the advantages of the other characters (super armor, drug-enhanced physiology, being a god, turning into a powerful monster - she doesn't even have a damn bow), but she still kicks. major. ass. with just her intelligence and prowess.
posted by jeoc at 10:21 AM on April 6, 2014 [7 favorites]

saw it yesterday on the strength of this thread's recs. thanks guys! i was entertained. (i'm not that hard to please with summer blockbusters, but i'm middling on comic book movies-- really interested in the ones i already know and like, ie. xmen and batman, need convincing on most other stuff and have basically given a lot of it a pass-- green lantern, hulk, thor, superman, ghostrider.) did not see the first captain america and it was totally fine. though i've seen 2 iron men and avengers. i think i could even give the first captain america a go based on this one, which i did not expect.

Also: Steve + Natasha = PLATONIC COMRADE-BROS 4 LIFE OH MY GOD.

yes. this also strongly describes my entire obsession with elementary (nyc sherlock holmes), i guess replace comrade with detective/partner.

and i am kind of a sucker for action movie trailers, but every trailer beforehand looked like a movie i could watch. (yes, even tmnt with megan fox as april and i goddamn don't have to explain myself to anyone.)
posted by twist my arm at 10:47 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

Didn't see a TMNT trailer before the movie but did see a trailer for yet another horrible Adam Sandler movie that seemed to have about fifteen paid product placements in a two minute trailer.
posted by octothorpe at 11:00 AM on April 6, 2014

My theater trailers were pure actiony goodness as well, the highlights being 22 Jump Street and Guardians of the Galaxy on the big screeeeeen. The casual theatergoer-reaction to Rocket Raccoon was gratifyingly "WTF AWESOME."

And I guess that one trailer was for the adaptation of the Japanese novel All You Need Is Kill, now a forgettably-titled Generic American Scifi with Tom Cruise. Seriously, who looks at an action story named All You Need Is Kill and thinks, "No, no...needs more bland."
posted by nicebookrack at 11:21 AM on April 6, 2014

That's so interesting! We didn't get TNMT, Jump Street, or Tom Cruise. Instead, of what I can remember of the like 6-7 trailers we got Guardians of the Galaxy, Spider Man: whatever, and Lucy, which seems like it's ScarJo's Jason Bourne turn, now with 100% more Morgan Freeman.
posted by TwoStride at 11:26 AM on April 6, 2014

I have never heard of Lucy until this moment, but I now need it in my life ASAP. And the Black Widow movie. All the Action ScarJo movies!

I already mentally classify The Bourne Legacy as "the one with Hawkeye's long-lost twin brother," so Lucy is now Lucy Romanoff until I say otherwise.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:43 AM on April 6, 2014 [1 favorite]

I feel like I haven't gushed enough about Falcon in this thread.

Holy shit you ain't kidding, Falcon made me so, so happy in this movie. Sam Wilson is Cap's most important relationship after Bucky; his first real post-thaw friend. They kept the stuff that worked from the comics (the awesome wings, the rad bromance, the swashbuckler's courage, etc) and cut away the stuff that would be weird in the MCU (the psychic bird familiar thing) or hugely problematic (his horrible pimp daddy origin from the comics which I choose to outright ignore because it's terrible).
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:45 AM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

I really, really liked that Sam and Steve connected and respected each other as military, that Sam immediately recognized Steve as a fellow soldier and not just Captain America™. Steve Rogers is the "soldier having difficulty readjusting to civilian life" story symbolically writ large (civilization has literally moved on without him!), and there were fantastic little bits acknowledging that readjustment is a problem, but one he can share with friends and at his friendly neighborhood VA meeting.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:58 AM on April 6, 2014 [6 favorites]

I am glad Falcon's psychic bird shenanigans didn't make the movie, but for the record I am a little bit sad he didn't have, like, a tiny parakeet at his house. With a background shot of Natasha feeding it a pancake.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:03 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]

Maybe the birds were controlling Falcon and not the other way around.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:58 PM on April 6, 2014

I foresee Hitchcock movie crossover.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:02 PM on April 6, 2014

Weekend Report: With Big 'Avengers' Bump, 'Captain America' Sets April Record
posted by homunculus at 6:09 PM on April 6, 2014

Guess what still fits
posted by The Whelk at 7:21 AM on April 7, 2014

stop teasing us Whelk we are all impatiently waiting for you to see the movie goooooo
posted by nicebookrack at 10:20 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]

(i was supposed to go today but there was Problems.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:24 PM on April 7, 2014

Dear Lord I could stare at steve's exquisitely sad face all day
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 AM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is there a word for bits of your fanfic becoming canon?
posted by The Whelk at 11:53 AM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

Review! Review!

Also, is it me or did Black Widow look like she just got back from a vacation in Bali or something?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:55 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

STEVE SPEAKS FRENCH
posted by The Whelk at 11:57 AM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm actually still in the theaterand I just wanna shoutplay it again
posted by The Whelk at 11:59 AM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

a moment of silence please for steve's brooklyn accent which was lost in the ice and has never been found
posted by The Whelk at 12:21 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

maybe we could have an NYC Captain America meetup so we could hear all these observations realtime and laugh down the theater because this is amazing.
posted by corb at 12:36 PM on April 8, 2014

Speaking of which, why exactly is MeFi Movie Club not a thing with like 20 different regional chapters?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:52 PM on April 8, 2014 [4 favorites]

Star Lord Shows off Skills in New "Guardians of the Galaxy" Clip
posted by homunculus at 1:10 PM on April 8, 2014

OKAY DISCUSSION now that I am at home and not grinning like a GOD DAMNED IDIOT

First the qualms: This feels like three different movies, there was enough material in here for a two movies, you couldn cut the eponymous winter solider out of it entirely and not lost much (I feel bad for Shaw he has like three lines) , and while I enjoyed each part separately there was a tonal mismatch between Real Life Events We Are Exploring and NAZI COMPUTERS. It makes the pacing weird, and with the action scenes , well all of the Marvel movies have this where it all comes down to a 4th act smash em up and they always slow the movie down. It's the slower, quieter parts that are the most engaging cause we know our heroes will always (more or less) win. It was fast and twisty but not exactly coherent cause it kept trying to say like eight different things at once.

Also it was sometimes hard to hear Natasha cause she sounded like she had a head cold.

Also, I find SHIELD to be a dreadfully boring organization because they have infinite resources and equipment and keep fake-killing people.

On the plus side: EVERY OTHER DAMN THING. So much Natasha! Steve imploring people to exercise their moral agency (I kinda wish there was more of this actually) Steve's big sad face full of feelings (How sad was that Smithsonian exhibition? Could we have maybe explored this a little bit more, being put BACK on stage like that? Oh wait no we need to see the only person he knows alive suffer from dementia cause he's NOT SAD ENOUGH) Robert Redford on screen again! Did I mention all the Natasha? Flashbacks! SINISTER NAZI COMPUTERS. I even thought the car-crash fight was GREAT for the whole The Police Are Not Here To Protect You Metaphor.

Also, ramifications for how SHIELD will operate in the future if it has to be an above-board, public agency. The whole MCU gets a boost the less they play up Seeeeekrit identities and cover organizations and the more they play up "Iron man is also an international celebrity" thing.

Also how the cure for the expanding surveillance state is to crash a huge drone into the HQ of the Superhero NSA. Tee Hee.

Also, Steven Strange name drop.

STEVE IN SNEAKERS "was that your first kiss since 1943?" Nat and Steve have the best chemistry which is also totally buds and not romance-y (DID YOU NOTICE HER ARROW NECKLACE?!)

It totally succeeded in making me want to run 13 miles RIGHT NOW.I'll process it better after a bit.

(For the unware I wrote a freaking Avengers novella to help deal with some mental problems I was having and in one chapter someone is spying on Steve Rogers at home. Steve is listening to some music as he gets dressed. The song? The same one Fury is playing at Steve's apartment. I briefly thought I was hallucinating)
posted by The Whelk at 1:14 PM on April 8, 2014 [8 favorites]

Also consider the bias that I was sold the instant we opened on the Washington monument and the first strings of the Captain America March played cause that was/is my workout music for the last two years.
posted by The Whelk at 1:19 PM on April 8, 2014

Steve imploring people to exercise their moral agency (I kinda wish there was more of this actually)

THAT WAS SO GOOD. I choked up literally every single time someone listened to him for the next twenty minutes. Like, fuck yeah, random Shield guy!
posted by corb at 1:23 PM on April 8, 2014 [4 favorites]

PROOF THAT I WAS "THAT GUY" AT THE THEATER
posted by The Whelk at 1:33 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

best part

"It's from a movie that-"

"YES I SAW IT"
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

He saw Wargames before Star Trek?
posted by entropicamericana at 2:30 PM on April 8, 2014

Imagine Steve staring at the Netflix stream. He's got a list of recommendations that someone deep within SHEILD has printed out for him, he's decided to stick to movies first cause he knows movies and at least no one is gonna talk during the newsreel this time , the tiles are meaningless to him, the actors unknown, the descriptions strange. He is emphatically NOT watching any WW2 movies - he reaches the end of the list "Wargames". ..... It has computers in it, and satellights , and those sound like things he should get caught up on. He clicks play now.
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on April 8, 2014 [5 favorites]

Wait no, best thing was how detail-oriented/observant Steve was and how this moved the plot - good skills for an artist AND a solider
posted by The Whelk at 2:49 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

What did you think about Cap's relationship with Falcon? It seemed really straightforward buddy comedy - especially the "you won't drop me off the roof, its not your style" and followthrough. But I also felt like that was what Cap needed: how does he relate to "normal" people? Is it "just a job" now, working for SHIELD? He's a soldier without a war, what now?

I too loved the reactions from the non-HYDRA personnel, but I'm wondering how, exactly, they spread. And what happened to Powers Boothe?

"Sorry, Captain's orders."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:09 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

I loved that they connected over thier shared "the war is over now what?" experiences and that Falcon doesn't hero worship or treat him with kid gloves. They both seemed isolated and maybe just a little bit desperate for someone to understand what's going on. Steve watching a group therapy session at the VA is a little at odds with NAZI COMPUTERS in tone but it works.

I do wish we saw more of the non Hydra staff rebelling and refusing to follow orders but that one scene with the gun was maybe tense enough, I would've liked a little more of that from other people cause it fits in so well with Cap's moral/ethnical world view and the idea that anyone can be a hero ( and doesn't rely on his suicidal bravery, which is ALLREADY well established thank you)
posted by The Whelk at 3:17 PM on April 8, 2014 [3 favorites]

I like to think Steve speaking French in this movie was a backhand slap to that awful panel from the early 00s where Cap says the A on his helmet doesn't stand for France cause they're cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Also he had two francophones in the Howling Commandos. You know, his like ONLY FRIENDS?
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on April 8, 2014 [4 favorites]

In addition to the brave computer tech, we also had the poor pilots who tried to give Captain Rogers air support and were immediately liquified by Winter Soldier.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:05 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well yes them but I wanted them to be NOT liquified.

I am nitpicking I know.
posted by The Whelk at 5:24 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Just saw it! Pretty cool.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:31 PM on April 8, 2014

SPOILERS


There were a number of SHIELD agents that fought back against HYDRA. In addition to the computer guy and the pilots (and their ground crew), there were the agents in the control room that shot it out with the bad guys in a pretty wild gunfight, the dude who was shouting "Shut the doors!" and the poor security guys that got killed in the stairwell. Not to mention the majority of the Triskelion personnel who were evacuated to shelters. They didn't get the chance to fight, but many of them might have wanted to.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:48 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

I like to think Steve speaking French in this movie was a backhand slap to that awful panel from the early 00s where Cap says the A on his helmet doesn't stand for France cause they're cheese eating surrender monkeys.

A great rebuttal to that panel from Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America in the arc that introduced the Winter Soldier.
posted by Uncle Ira at 7:37 PM on April 8, 2014 [4 favorites]

So… What the Heck is Gonna be Winter Soldier‘s Effect on Tonight’s SHIELD?
posted by homunculus at 7:40 PM on April 8, 2014

I also love how much this was as Natasha Romanov movie as well as a Steve Rogers one. She's got ALL the screen time and her foil is the man who can't tell a lie and is stalwart and steady and true to her web of lies and spy fronts and cover identities The Black Widow is the ultimate cold war spy who, because of working with the living embodiment of truth and justice, reveals every single state secret and covert plan in the works. She's a super-spy who throws away secrecy cause secrecy allows dark things like HYDRA to grow.

PLus she has all the best lines. And she's so great as Steve's friend. She's not like Falcon, who got to know him before knowing all the spy shit. She's right there, and trying to fix him up with dates, while garroting a motherfucker.
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on April 8, 2014 [7 favorites]

god I shout get my blonde highlights retouched and re-take some of those boxing lessons
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 PM on April 8, 2014

Matchmaker Natasha will never not be endearing/hilarious. "Love is for children...but you need to get laid, Steve!!"
posted by nicebookrack at 8:31 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

Tonight's Agents of SHIELD ep was full of HYDRA shenanigans, so definitely spoilery if you hadn't seen TWS. I suspect there are some double-triple-and-half SHIELDRA agents on the way.

Tiny geeky crossover spoiler alert: Fitz the Scottish tech geek invented the laser thingie that Fury uses to escape his car. And Fury is apparently in the season finale!

HAIL HYDRA!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:37 PM on April 8, 2014

Damnit you can't make me watch Agents Of Shield unless you're gonna be interesting cause your show is boring DON'T GET ALL INTERESTING ON ME I REFUSE.
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 PM on April 8, 2014

Kudos to the movie in recognizing that Chris Evans' huge eyelashes and full lips can do all the emotional lifting (Cause HIS FACE HIS BIG SAD FACE FULL OF FEELINGS YOU DON'T NEED WORDS JUST BIG EYELASHES AND A SLIGHT MOVEMENT OF THE JAW(
posted by The Whelk at 8:55 PM on April 8, 2014

My big stupid fanfic novella, here is where both me and the movie agree that Steve would listen to "A Long Long Time"
posted by The Whelk at 8:58 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

oh yeah ... I had notes, probably too late now. Seriously, you need some mil-spec details fleshed out (and you do) , just drop me a line.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:08 PM on April 8, 2014

100% accurate Pinterest spam: Chris Evans vs golden retrievers

Bonus: GO TEAM ANIMALS
posted by nicebookrack at 9:18 PM on April 8, 2014

Well someone's managed to collect the different versions of Steve's notebook.

*personally going omg russia wat*
posted by cendawanita at 9:24 PM on April 8, 2014 [2 favorites]

I need Natasha to explain the "Moscow doesn't believe in tears" one please
posted by nicebookrack at 9:27 PM on April 8, 2014

Reason for everybody to watch Agents of SHIELD next week: Adrian Pasdar's Glenn Talbot mustache. With bonus Patton Oswalt.

But seriously, that mustache is AMAZING.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:34 PM on April 8, 2014

you need some mil-spec details fleshed out (and you do) , just drop me a line.

In both stories things hinge on a USB drive.


although I didn't think to do a whole Smithsonian show to make Steve sad...but I was just at the WW2 museum in New Orleans and they had field recrationists in costume out and about outside the Boeing Exhibition and all I thought was how this would Make Steve Sad.
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on April 8, 2014

(also thanks for the details on Arlington Cemetary you know who you are)
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on April 8, 2014

FJT: "(more spoilers)

But, the thousands of employees that work at SHIELD don't just go away. The alternative of just letting them go is worse. You either open up the possibility of HYDRA agents infiltrating other agencies like the CIA, or you prevent that by blacklisting every former employee of SHIELD from working in any military, intelligence, law enforcement, or even government organization."

I haven't watched Agents of SHIELD yet, so I have no idea how they're going to deal with this - but you're absolutely right. It's a huge agency that had a whole lot of operations ongoing when the movie began, and it filled a need in the Marvel universe. They do scientific research, launch space rockets, store and study all kinds of dangerous artifacts, and handle weird stuff like antimatter meteors that threaten innocent Miamians. The existing intelligence and law enforcement agencies of the world can't be expected to just step in and take all that over. Imagine the fights over who gets to control the stuff in their vault!

But on the other hand, they've been thoroughly infiltrated by HYDRA. So I imagine they'd suspend the whole organization for a while and investigate every single agent. It might take years to clear them all, but certain departments could come back online after being cleared, even if others were still being vetted.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:07 PM on April 8, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's a year until Age of Ultron comes out, Whelk, plenty of time for a sequel

Speaking of, can it be August yet? I need aliens!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:09 PM on April 8, 2014

It's a year until Age of Ultron comes out, Whelk, plenty of time for a sequel

Dan is DEAD.

I have actually gotten E-MAIL about this. It's so touching and sweet. Seriously, they are best e-mails I ever got. For real.

But canon was progressed beyond what I had in mind. Dan died so I could live.

(but SHIELD are BASTARDS that is still canon woooooo)
posted by The Whelk at 10:16 PM on April 8, 2014

Steve watching a group therapy session at the VA is a little at odds with NAZI COMPUTERS in tone but it works.

Actually I thought that went really well. That session, to my veteran eye, looked less like a group therapy session and more like a reintegration group talking about difficulty adjusting. (Placement of chairs and focus, plus I've been to the VA a bunch.) So there's a lot there - in terms of how veterans - and Steve - are slightly uneasy with the peace, because they don't feel right - the pillows are too soft, there's too little adrenaline running through their veins, so their body is manufacturing it. Steve could be in there. Steve needs to be in there. But instead, he's rushing to battle - and that is partially a necessary and good part of the story, and partially him running away. Who is he when he's not hitting things? Who is Steve if there isn't a war? There's a lot there, and I hope it gets worked out more.
posted by corb at 6:51 AM on April 9, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh. Also the Nazi computers are necessary for setup of what I think they may be setting up (And if so SQUEE SO LOUD I CANNOT STOP SQUEEING)
posted by corb at 6:52 AM on April 9, 2014

Elaborate on your squee, corb!
posted by nicebookrack at 7:48 AM on April 9, 2014

Well someone's managed to collect the different versions of Steve's notebook.

I guess I'm the only one who thought this was really stupid and pandering. The scene features an American telling an Unfrozen American Soldier what he needs to catch up on after his 70 year nap, does anyone honestly think he's going to mention Skippy the Bush Kangaroo or something?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:50 AM on April 9, 2014

While I write a long squee post, I leave you with this awesome piece of writing in response to people who thought Captain America should have been more of a reactionary asshole, because 1940s:

"Abraham Riesman doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. Steve Rogers isn’t a jingoistic conservative asshole and I have evidence to back that up."

Thus when Captain America is unfrozen in the 1960s, he’s not freaked out by the changes in racial progress – instead, he forms an instant partnership with one of the first black superheroes, the Falcon, who movie audiences just met for the first time, and the two of them go toe to toe against an insane imposter Captain America who’s obsessed about communists under the bed. The analogy cannot be more pointed: the real Captain America stands for racial equality and civil liberties, the Captain America who believes that the government needs to “smash” reds by any means necessary is a fraud.

posted by corb at 7:56 AM on April 9, 2014 [2 favorites]

‘Agents of SHIELD’ postmortem: Jeff Bell and Jeph Loeb on what [spoiler's] new role means for the series

BIGASS SPOILERS in the link for The Winter Soldier and last night's AoS episode "Turn, Turn, Turn."
posted by nicebookrack at 8:01 AM on April 9, 2014

A Nazi computer would be a machine that is designed only for killing.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. just got more interesting, but the show has already burned through so much of my good will, I still can't be genuinely excited about it. I *do* hope that one character is actually EEEVVVVIIILLL, and not simply brainwashed.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:11 AM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

Okay: So the setup of why I think Nazi computer matters: (warning: this is SUPER FUCKING SPOILERY, so beware links)

We've already seen the introduction of this character, with the iconic costume foreshadowed in the last scenes. Add in Steve's "neighbor", Falcon, Winter Soldier (signed for multiple movies) and the demonstration of how characters can live on in other mind-holding devices, or the-mind-as-programming. Which storyline contains them all? This one. And note what arc is on the top? It cannot possibly take place without this epic storyline that I have been biting my nails hoping would happen for YEARS. Which is going to involve me literally gibbering with excitement because it is so good and says so many important things and brings in pretty much everyone.
posted by corb at 8:15 AM on April 9, 2014

The scene features an American telling an Unfrozen American Soldier what he needs to catch up on after his 70 year nap, does anyone honestly think he's going to mention Skippy the Bush Kangaroo or something?

I thought it was clear it was a running list? Sam's mention of Marvin Gaye made Steve pull out his notebook, but tht list was well up and running. And now there's all these pocket alternate universes that Steve's met a garrulous Brit/Aussie/Mexican/French in SHIELD who's told him to check The Fifth Element of all things, lol.

(note: that's my fave film)
posted by cendawanita at 8:23 AM on April 9, 2014

Mmm, good point. Still a little too cutesy for me. *shrugs*
posted by entropicamericana at 8:30 AM on April 9, 2014

The Civil War storyline makes no sense in the MCU, though. The whole point of the Registration Act opposition was all these hundreds of superheroes with secret identities they didn't want to reveal to the government. In the MCU there are like 7 superheroes total, most of whom are already working for the government, and only one of whom (Hulk/Banner) has any sort of secret identity at all. And in TWS SHIELD just dumped all its secrets all over the Internet.

Also I can never fully support Civil War because MCU Tony is my favorite. Civil War Comics Tony was such an unmitigated megalomaniac asshole that I didn't see the first Iron Man movie in theaters until the last possible moment because I haaaaaated the character Iron Man so much. STAY AWAY FROM MOVIE TONY, COMICS JERKASS.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:31 AM on April 9, 2014 [3 favorites]

Seconding 1970s Antihero: I bought a season pass of AoS on iTunes and after the Lorelei episode (awful and gross, both the part where Lorelei has sex with men under compulsion, aka rape, and the totally dismissed effects of mind control on male members of the team who got whammied), I swore it off. I told myself I might go back and watch the two Winter Soldier episodes, but I read the recap, and I'm not sure I care at this point about what happens to the Catalog Models.

I read the Bell and Loeb interview and one of them was talking about how they'd made the audience love the characters. I thought "well, you tried!"

I liked Winter Soldier as a film, but to find out they basically were spinning their wheels in AoS for most of the season so they could get to this stuff is very disappointing. One of the things that makes TV good when it's good is that the episodic format can be used to show change and growth. Instead AoS seems to be sticking to the really bad parts of the comic book model, down to and including tossing out all the potentially interesting developments in their own story to participate in the company's latest crossover. And I'd like the 15 or so hours I spent on AoS back to watch something more interesting and fun.
posted by immlass at 8:48 AM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

A Nazi computer would be a machine that is designed only for killing.

I was so happy about the swerve on The Clairvoyant on Agents because when none of the candidates were named George Tarleton I briefly despaired of him ever entering the MCU.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:58 AM on April 9, 2014

The whole point of the Registration Act opposition was all these hundreds of superheroes with secret identities they didn't want to reveal to the government.

CW doesn't work great without "bad" heros like the X-Men to demonize, and working class ones like Spider-Man (or Daredevil, or..) who are oblivious at first. I suppose a Luke Cage could stand in for many of those last, but a key part of the CW story was how the non-involved average heros were swept up involuntarily in the factions lead by Tony and Cap.
posted by bonehead at 9:00 AM on April 9, 2014

CW doesn't work great without "bad" heros like the X-Men to demonize

Yeah, a big factor of CW was the public's fear of all the mutants everywhere being born with murderous superpowers. It's possible/likely that the MCU will play up secret Inhumans as an alternative to mutants, but they haven't introduced them yet.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:11 AM on April 9, 2014

Well, not the mutants, per se, because that has a really specific meaning in Marvel - the precipitating event for CW involved a pretty diverse group. But I feel like some of the Marvel movies lately have made sure to play up average person reaction to some of these things - in particular after what happened to Manhattan. Or the IronMan movies - some of them involve congressional testimony, which fits right into early CW. It might be harder to do in movie form, but I'm not sure how they can possibly do Cap's end event without CW itself. (Which ties in with the amount of contracts everyone's signed to.)
posted by corb at 9:32 AM on April 9, 2014

If they do CW as an Alias movie, I'd watch the crap out of it. If Jennifer Jones were to be the first female lead in a Marvel superhero flick, I wouldn't be unhappy.
posted by bonehead at 9:34 AM on April 9, 2014

Jessica Jones is getting her own series on Netflix, as is Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Daredevil.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:45 AM on April 9, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think we're heading toward a CW like situation, but it'll be it's own thing
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 AM on April 9, 2014

Maybe that's how we get Ultron, with Ultron as a Sentinelesque government policing machine. "All vigilantes are under arrest, we have a shiny new objective police robot—whoops, now it's yelling EXTERMINATE, EXTERMINATE."
posted by nicebookrack at 10:38 AM on April 9, 2014

Well, after watching the most recent Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D., I can safely predict that whatever episode runs after A2: Age Of Ultron comes out is going to be pretty good.

Also, calling it now: triple agent.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:47 AM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think we're heading toward a CW like situation

Who in the Mighty Marvel Movie Universe could they put on the pro-registration side without doing violence to their previous characterization? Thor, I guess? Hawkeye?
posted by straight at 7:52 AM on April 10, 2014

Gee, triple agent? You guys think so? Between the exchange of Significant Looks with Coulson (about as subtle as Lando's nod in RotJ or Lucille Bluth's wink) and the Mournful and Troubled Expression during the final scene? Could Agent Fist RockBone really be a good guy after all?

As much as I would like Punch RockGroin to be a real traitor (it would could down on an unwieldy cast and we really don't need two Fighty McHardasses on the team), I think his eyecandy status gives him immunity.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:30 AM on April 10, 2014

oh, I'd love it if Beef Jawline turned out to be actually bad (and not just bad, but an opportunist to boot!), I think it would be a huge risk to take for a network TV show that has been, well, predictable.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:53 AM on April 10, 2014

I want Not-Riley Finn to be a HYDRA agent who's now ~~conflicted~~, a la Original Riley; but yeah, my money's on triple agent.

I had to laugh at this SUPER-SPOILERY INTERVIEW with the Spoilery Actor, because oh god, that description of the Worst Workday Ever. "I'm thinking the entire time, holy crap, they're gonna kill me off. I better enjoy this scene then because my days are numbered at this point. And you know I’m on a Joss Whedon show, so from the very beginning I’m not unaware of the fact that my position on the team was not a guarantee."
posted by nicebookrack at 8:55 AM on April 10, 2014

Ahaha guess who is back in the theater already
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 AM on April 10, 2014 [4 favorites]

A Whelk audio commentary on Steve Rogers Movies would be highly entertaining.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:39 AM on April 10, 2014 [3 favorites]

I just now realize d that last bit was Hill applying to work at Stark
posted by The Whelk at 11:53 AM on April 10, 2014

A Whelk audio commentary on Steve Rogers Movies would be highly entertaining.

it's just a series of long, drawn out sighs punctuated with screaming
posted by The Whelk at 12:22 PM on April 10, 2014 [3 favorites]

No.

Metafilter: it's just a series of long, drawn out sighs punctuated with screaming

Just no.

[puts down water bottle]
posted by Atreides at 12:32 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also, if Steve doesn't get to dance with anyone in the near future I might start taking hostages.
posted by The Whelk at 12:36 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

"what are your demands?!"

"Steve has a nice day! With no sad reminders or beautiful melancholy for lost times! Maybe there's a puppy!"
posted by The Whelk at 12:37 PM on April 10, 2014 [4 favorites]

Now that he's unemployed in the wake of SHIELD, maybe Steve can get a gig as a dogwalker.

Those dogs would be SO GODDAMN WELL-EXERCISED.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:11 PM on April 10, 2014

Cobie Smulders Brings Maria Hill Back to Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. on April 29
posted by nicebookrack at 1:16 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

AKA: Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. Brings Paychecks Back To Cobie Smulders
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:21 PM on April 10, 2014 [3 favorites]

I now demand a new web-series of called The Adventures Of Unemployed Steve.
posted by The Whelk at 1:31 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Unemployed Steve draws a webcomic!
posted by nicebookrack at 1:37 PM on April 10, 2014 [5 favorites]

There is a subtle thread of Steve thinking jeans and sneakers are dumb strung throughout this movie.
posted by The Whelk at 2:14 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

(wait there where some gifs I saw of Peggy and Howard Stark talking and Howard wearing an awesome dressing robe, those where not in the movie are they in a One-Shot or?)
posted by The Whelk at 3:29 PM on April 10, 2014

Those were in the Peggy Carter one-shot.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:31 PM on April 10, 2014

Agent Carter Clip 1, Clip 2
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:35 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yaaay!

( Apperently the plan for an Agent Carter series is coming through and I need to find away to get my writing samples into hirings' hands cause I'm pretty sure I was put on this earth to write female Indiana jones in the 40s.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:52 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Steve Rogers is wearing fancy Nikes for someone who disdains sneakers. And Natasha's wedge sneakers look surprisingly comfy. Are wedge sneakers the new "running in high heels" for action heroines?

And oh, crap, I did not need to know that the cheaper version of Black Widow's lovely totally-from-Hawkeye Tiffany arrow necklace is within my limited means. I do not need it! But I want it! (By not buying the platinum-diamond version I would be practically saving money.) nooooo I don't need it
posted by nicebookrack at 4:24 PM on April 10, 2014

Sorry I'm trapped in since some horrible DON'T WRITE THIS SMALL FIC where we explain HOW SHE GOT THE NECKLACE. Was it loot? You know he didn't MEAN to get it. it had to be accidental. Oh god no fingers stop do not write Nat and Clint at Tiffany's trying to case someone and it goes horribly wrong sttttooooop
posted by The Whelk at 4:57 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

I COULD CALL IT BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S OH NO STOP
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Of course Clint gets her a $1600 platinum necklace as a cheesetastic souvenir of That One Case at Tiffany's, like normal people get truckstock keychain mementoes. OF COURSE.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:38 PM on April 10, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh please he totally didn't pay for that necklace.

He stole that necklace.
posted by The Whelk at 5:48 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

Much better. Good on him for not stealing the sterling silver one.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:57 PM on April 10, 2014

They're pretending to be a married couple in the silver section at the top of the building so they can NO STOP STOP STOP
posted by The Whelk at 6:01 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

Clint and Natasha having coffee on the street corner, talking shit before they have to go in and pretend to be young newlyweds cooing over diamonds.
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

Clint is the one pushing for the more expensive necklace cause he wants to make Nat squirm cause their target hasn't shown up yet and Clint is bored and being a dick
posted by The Whelk at 9:16 PM on April 10, 2014 [2 favorites]

STOP IT BRAIN STOP IT
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 PM on April 10, 2014

yessss yesssss give in to the dark fanfic-writing side
posted by nicebookrack at 12:09 AM on April 11, 2014 [4 favorites]

MUST RESIST
posted by The Whelk at 9:05 AM on April 11, 2014

(I could make a detour to Tiffany's after lunch...)
posted by The Whelk at 9:17 AM on April 11, 2014

*chants* Wriiiiiiite it! Wriiiiiiite it!
posted by corb at 9:41 AM on April 11, 2014

I COULD CALL IT BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S OH NO STOP

Perhaps you could call it "Fast Break at Tiffany's"...
posted by Mad_Carew at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2014

Guardians Of The Galaxy Details Revealed, Including Link To Avengers 3
posted by homunculus at 2:11 PM on April 11, 2014

I've seen the version of this GOTG picture with the orange-yellow disks on their prison suits and a version without. What gives?
posted by nicebookrack at 2:54 PM on April 11, 2014

Saw it yesterday and ....

OMG I WANT TO COSPLAY A FEMME!FALCON Sooooooooooooo Bad:

But, I have no engineering skills and making a wearable set of folding wings is waaaaay beyond my current skillset.

I loved it. Wasn't so hot on all the automobile carnage but otherwise loved it.
posted by Faintdreams at 3:11 PM on April 11, 2014

I want to crossplay as Winter Soldier / Becky Barnes because his hair looks exactly like mine when I sleep on it wet. Smudge some black eyeshadow, duct tape arm, I am GO.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:59 PM on April 11, 2014

i am seriously considering more blonde highlights.
posted by The Whelk at 10:20 PM on April 11, 2014

SO um this is werid asking a thread for this but: How's this so far:

FAST BREAK AT TIFFANY'S

Near dawn, a taxi pulls up to the Waverly Diner at the corner of 6th Ave and Waverly in New York City.

Clint Barton exits the taxi in a pair of sunglasses and black sweater. He walks into the diner, going past the ATM and newspaper stand in the foyer, into the Formica-paneled room with glossy brown leather booths. His eye darts from the hand-written CASH ONLY NO CHECKS ACCEPTED sign to the booth under a framed picture of Marlyn Monroe and James Dean sharing a milkshake. In the booth, Natasha Romanov sits examining the big plastic menu wearing a denim jacket and stripped shirt. Clint walks over and sits down.

"Coming in early or getting the call late?" Nat doesn't look up from her menu.

Clint's shoulders drop. He pushed his sunglasses up. He is a full grown adult man and doesn't have to answer that.

"They have disco Fries here." Nat scanned the menu. "How is that not just poutine?"

"You called me here. You said it was an order."

"It's something like that."

Clint was about to say something when a chubby waiter with dark circles around his eyes and a comically bushy mustache appeared.

"Coffee?"

They nod. Natasha puts the menu down.

"Heard you're back in action. after Madagascar."

"Maybe."

"Maybe a little local gig could get you back into the game."

"Maybe."

"Maybe I wanted an excuse to come to the city and this seemed easy."

"Maybe?"

The dark circles and mustache drops two full coffee mugs on the table before darting off toward the kitchen. Nat shook out a sugar packet and poured it in her coffee, watching Clint tear open and pour five creamers into his.

"You want some coffee in that milk?"

"Milk does a body good." Clint said with the cadence of an old joke. "Like your black one sugar is any cooler, is that like a statement or something? 'Black as the night, sweet as sin."?

"I'm lactose intolerant" Nat sirs her coffee again and puts the mug to her lips.

"Really?"

"No."

"You are a piece of -" The chubby waiter's mustache looms into view. Nat and Clint hand him the menus before he has time to open his mouth and say "Lumberjack breakfast, scrambled, extra jam" in unison. The waiter runs off while Clint puts his empty creamer cups inside themselves.

"What's the job?"

Nat slides him a folder.

"Mikhal Bezos-Shaw. Real charming guy from a Macedonian crime family. Started in arms and mining, now into natural gas and money laundering in a big way. He's the prime public front for a lot of missing crates of guns and bombs, not to mention what his company likes to do towns in the way of new pipelines. Always visits New York once a year to sure up business contracts and pick up a new gift for his doting wife at ...Tiffany's

Clint flipped through the folder.

"We've never been able to get him holding anything but we know he makes a hand off every time he's in town."

Clint tapped his mug with his finger. "They think he does it in the store?"

"It's the only time he's not being monitored."

The waiter returned with plate-laded arms. He put down the two lumberjack breakfasts and syrup containers and the bowl full of individually wrapped packets of jam.

"And, why we are you doing this? This is grunt work." Clint finished off his coffee and picked up the fork.

"Erikken is out sick, Cho is in deep cover, Taymor currently thinks he's a pony, and Bragason is getting married."

"Wait a second." Clint held a fork-full of eggs to his mouth. "Bragasons' getting married?

Nat nodded.

"To the great big hairy guy in Accounts?"

"Yep."

"Aw." Clint put the eggs in his mouth "That's so sweet."

"I'll send them your regards. You in or not?"

Clint slumped back into the brown-leather booth. "When was the last time we saw reach other?"

"July 27th. The internal review board meeting."

"Wrong."

Nat arched an eyebrow.

"July 25th. I saw you from the balcony of the DC house I was assigned to but I don't think you saw me. You where wearing blue, a skirt but loose enough for running, and based on how you handled your little clutch bag you where carrying a Level-4 pulse disruptor pistol."

Nat's eyebrows did A Thing. It was pointed directly at Clint.

Clint smiled. "It's fine. I'm in. When's the time?"

"Tomorrow." Nat picked up a piece of bacon. "0700."

"Okay good, can I wear m-"

"You can wear the suit."

"Awesome." Clint grabbed the little syrup container off to the side and poured it over his pancakes and sausage. "It's not everyday you get to have breakfast at Tiffany's!" Clint mugged his eyes at her. Nat just shrugged.

"What, nothing? Audrey Hepburn? Deep Blue Something?"

Nat shook her head and shrugged again.

Clint sighed and cut up his pancake. "Worse than talking to Rogers."

---
posted by The Whelk at 9:44 PM on April 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

Just got back from the theater, and it was...pretty good? I'd have liked it a lot more if the plot of the movie hadn't been delivered by infodump, and if listening to Cap's dulcet tones weren't a ticket to death-by-Hydra-goon for anyone not important enough to get a name in the credits. Kinda weakens the impact of his (extremely well-played) inspirational nature.

(Also, words cannot express the disappointment of realizing that Arnim Zola was only going to get the one scene.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:55 PM on April 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, it is now clear that Iron Man:Other guys in armor::Captain America:Airplanes.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:07 PM on April 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also, it is now clear that Iron Man:Other guys in armor::Captain America:Airplanes.

I'm a little worried about the escalation. Soon, people are going to have to be playing chicken with helicarriers on a crowded expressway for anyone to even notice.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:57 PM on April 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

They need to come up with some MCU augmented reality stuff, because I'd be looking at the Triskelion right now, and the climax of the movie would definitely be livening up this meeting.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:47 AM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

AHAHAHAHA you guys I came up with the best use of the architecture at Tiffay's as a weapon.
posted by The Whelk at 3:14 PM on April 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

News for More Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter

This all jives with what Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely (writers of both Captain America movies and the Agent Carter pilot) said about the show’s status last month. Agent Carter would be a limited series of thirteen episodes, good for slipping into the winter hiatus of another series. Of course, there may be more to talk about in the assumption that Agents of SHIELD will get a second season.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:02 AM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

The one shot on Agent Carter was quite good, so it's great to hear that she may be getting even a limited 13 episode run. Sleepy Hollow was just about that for it's first season, after all, and it, well, ROCKED.

One part of Cap 2 that really hit me was Steve's visit to Carter in the hospital when it became apparent that she was suffering from Alzheimers. I wondered if the Agent Carter show would start from that point, where someone is documenting/interviewing her at the nursing home about the founding/early days of Shield.

And yah, Turn, Turn, Turn, which I enjoyed was slightly underwhelming for what I thought were missed opportunities to tie the show in with the movie at least a little bit. It'd been great if they had aired some kind of partial message or even a full message from the Cap or Black Widow that mirrored events in the movie.
posted by Atreides at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

The Winter Soldier Screenwriters Dish About Their Story Decisions And Cap's Future

On the possibility of tackling a side character for one of the Marvel One-Shot films made for the home video releases:

Markus: There are a lot of characters who you can't quite get over the hump to get into a full-length movie that it would be great to roll out into a short. Some of them are too effects heavy. I don't know if you could afford Modok in a 12-minute movie.

Fandango: Do a Shandling story. All the horrible stuff he's orchestrated over the years.

Markus: Batroc and Shandling in a car.

McFeely: Road trip!

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:38 AM on April 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Markus: Batroc and Shandling in a car.

Hydra Agents In Cars Getting Coffee.

Someone call Seinfeld. He'll want a piece of this...
posted by Mad_Carew at 10:45 AM on April 15, 2014

If Bob, Agent of HYDRA, doesn't show up in a Marvel short, I will cry tears of blood.

Also, for the record, the Agents of SHIELD ep tonight was perfect. Agent Cardboard is Angelus! YEESSSSS let the evil cackling and soul-losing commence
posted by nicebookrack at 9:42 PM on April 15, 2014

THIS TRIP WAS TOTALLY RESEARCH RELATED

Okay, dang the big central chandler thing they used to have is gone okay hmmm


Well okay how would you weaponize the interior of Tiffany's ( I hadn't remembered that much security before,)
posted by The Whelk at 3:17 PM on April 17, 2014

Wait never mind I remembered the bathroom exists
posted by The Whelk at 3:46 PM on April 17, 2014

Wait, doesn't Tiffany's transform into a giant robot? Or am I misremembering my visit there?
posted by happyroach at 3:52 PM on April 17, 2014

Until proven otherwise I choose to believe that super-enthusiastic HYDRA agent in the Fridge was named Robert.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:34 PM on April 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

The other Captain America movie - this 1973 Turkish version in which he teams up with a Mexican wrestler and fights evil Spiderman
posted by homunculus at 9:05 PM on April 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

They had that at the Alamo earlier this month! I really wanted to go, but it conflicted with something else.
posted by immlass at 9:40 PM on April 19, 2014

Chapter Two : Fast Break At Tiffany's.
posted by The Whelk at 2:29 PM on April 23, 2014

and COMPLETE
posted by The Whelk at 11:21 PM on May 3, 2014