"Don’t shoot me"
August 12, 2014 1:53 PM Subscribe

Why Did Michael Brown Die in Ferguson? - According to the police of Fergusson, Missouri it was because he reached for an officer's weapon, necessitating that he be shot multiple times as he ran away empty handed. Eyewitness tell a different story. Whatever happened the killing has prompted demonstrations and looting. Ferguson police responded in full force, firing teargas and wooden rounds into crowds of protestors and sealing the area off from the media. In the wake of the tragedy questions of racial profiling, the paramilitarization of police and media depictions of black shooting victims have been raised. Meanwhile the shooter has not been named to preserve his safety.
posted by Artw (3282 comments total) 162 users marked this as a favorite

> Belmar acknowledged that the police were still trying to work out what, exactly, had happened.

Yeah, it sounds like a real headscratcher all right.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [62 favorites]

A straight up whodunnit.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [17 favorites]

Compare and contrast to the Bundy Ranch idiocy, and you will conclude either that Black Communities need more AR-15s and Gadsden flags, or that America is unfortunately not a post racial society.

And for the love of god, don't read the comments. How do so many racists have so much free time ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [40 favorites]

How do so many racists have so much free time ?

Bored and lazy losers usually do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:03 PM on August 12, 2014 [30 favorites]

The eyewitness account is fucking nauseating. The whole story is fucking nauseating, but that in particular was a kick in the stomach. God dammit. How many more times are we going to allow this to happen.
posted by penduluum at 2:04 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view — until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." - Atticus Finch, To Kill A Mockingbird, Harper Lee

Just something to keep in mind.
posted by Fizz at 2:05 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

Vet on SWAT teams: "We rolled lighter than that in an actual warzone."
posted by weston at 2:05 PM on August 12, 2014 [34 favorites]

Holy crap. That "eyewitness" link is pretty fucking chilling. Of course he's not an impartial witness, but the story is told very coherently and convincingly. And if he's telling anything like the truth that's just a straight up "I got mad and decided to execute someone for the hell of it." I wonder if there's any police car video or recording or any of that stuff (of course, if there is, and if things unfolded the way this witness says, I wonder if the recording will mysteriously vanish).
posted by yoink at 2:07 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Airspace over Ferguson has been shut down to commercial aircraft to 3000 feet for the next 4 days, conveniently keeping news helicopters away.

Number : FDC 4/2599 Download shapefiles
Issue Date : August 12, 2014 at 1318 UTC
Location : FERGUSON, Missouri near ST LOUIS VORTAC (STL)
Beginning Date and Time : August 12, 2014 at 1315 UTC
Ending Date and Time : August 18, 2014 at 2000 UTC
Reason for NOTAM : TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES
Type : Hazards
Replaced NOTAM(s) : N/A
Pilots May Contact : KANSAS CITY (ZKC) ARTCC, 913-254-8500
posted by Lyn Never at 2:07 PM on August 12, 2014 [29 favorites]

The FAA just banned all flights under 3,000 feet in Ferguson.

"TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES"
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

Lauren Williams: Ferguson, MO, is 67 percent black, and its police force is 94 percent white

Ferguson’s police chief and mayor are white. Of the six City Council members, one is black. The local school board has six white members and one Latino. Of the 53 commissioned officers on the police force, three are black, said Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson.
As my colleague Dara Lind has pointed out, a state report on racial profiling revealed that last year, 86 percent of traffic stops and 92 percent of all arrests in the city were of black residents. For anyone who didn't understand the context of Ferguson residents' anger and frustration, and why the police shooting of an unarmed black teenager Saturday caused it to bubble over, think of these arrest stats. Then compare the demographics of the city to the demographics of its police force and city council.

posted by zombieflanders at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2014 [52 favorites]

Vet on SWAT teams: "We rolled lighter than that in an actual warzone."

The images from the Fox 2 Now team (follow the teargas link and scroll down) are insane.
posted by Artw at 2:10 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Airspace over Ferguson has been shut down to commercial aircraft to 3000 feet for the next 4 days, conveniently keeping news helicopters away.

Also making it possible to break the world record for most video-recording quadcopters flying over a town without the usual bureaucratic hassle.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

According to pictures of protests and eye witnesses, they're also mischaracterizing the protests as violent, when they've been large crowds of people with their hands up. Given the history of police violence toward peaceful, non-violent protest, I'm inclined to believe the protesters. The removal of the media from the site is another bit of evidence in their favor - this kind of racist shit thrives in the dark.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2014 [61 favorites]

From weston's link: "You can't win someone's heart and mind when you are pointing a rifle at their chest."
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:14 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

The coverage of all of these cases of unrest seems to focus too much on the inciting incident, but people don't riot over one case of police violence. They need to look at the big picture. Even if this were justifiable homicide, it doesn't change all the other negative interactions that people there have had with police.
posted by empath at 2:15 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

In Defense of Black Rage:

Why are police calling the people of Ferguson animals and yelling at them to “bring it”? Because those officers in their riot gear, with their tear gas and dogs, want a justification for slaughter. But inexplicably in that moment we turn our attention to the rioters, the people with less power, but justifiable anger, and say, “You are the problem.” No. A cop killing an unarmed teenager who had his hands in the air is the problem. Anger is a perfectly reasonable response. So is rage.

posted by scody at 2:15 PM on August 12, 2014 [145 favorites]

Anger is a perfectly reasonable response. So is rage.

QF-fucking-T.
posted by frijole at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2014 [6 favorites]

Black America is left searching for that ever-elusive sense of justice. But what is justice?

Justice for Renisha would have looked like Michael Brown being able to attend college. Justice for Trayvon would have looked like Renisha McBride getting the help she needed the night of her accident. Justice for Oscar Grant would have looked like Trayvon Martin making it home to finish watching the NBA All-Star game, Skittles and iced tea in tow. And so on, and so on. Justice should be the affirmation of our existence.

posted by ChuraChura at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2014 [41 favorites]

Jesus Christ. Some of those pictures are reminiscent of Tiananmen...
posted by schmod at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

FAA bans low-flying aircraft over Ferguson “to provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities.”
Man, if you want to talk about some examples of systematic racism, Ferguson over the last few days has given you examples for days.

And yet the words of "safe environment for law enforcement activities." sure sounds like the safe environment being provided is the safety of less recording for the safety of less accountability.

But hey, if how accountability for public officials is obtained by calling it racism, by all means call it racism.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:17 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

The images from the Fox 2 Now team (follow the teargas link and scroll down) are insane.

I never thought I'd say this but thank god for Vine. Otherwise we'd probably have no images at all.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:17 PM on August 12, 2014 [11 favorites]

Why is the FAA, a federal agency, enacting this restriction?

What threats do the federal government perceive are manifest to the police except for public exposure?

Are UAVs with cameras, which would likely not be something the black community of Ferguson, MO, would possess, exempt from this restriction? (I think I know the unfortunate answer to that question.)

The Federal government and some state governments seem interested in enacting legislative gun control.

I say we start by taking away cops' guns.

Right fucking now.
posted by mistersquid at 2:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [27 favorites]

At least according to one witness, a TV news camera crew was on the scene near the burned-down QuikTrip making sure to studiously avoid filming any white dickholes driving by shouting racial slurs, while filming anyone who was black and angry-looking.
posted by Foosnark at 2:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

Btw -- where are the Oathkeepers protesting clear violations of human rights by the police?
posted by empath at 2:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [19 favorites]

Unlike Ferguson, Springfield police cameras keep watch
posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Anonymous: We are watching [the police] very closely ... If you abuse, harass or harm in any way the protesters in Ferguson we will take every web-based asset of your departments and governments offline. That is not a threat. It is a promise.
posted by scody at 2:19 PM on August 12, 2014 [40 favorites]

Thank you for posting. I put together a Twitter list of a few locals - Antonio French is well worth following.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I really, really hope there's good video of this. There were initial reports that phones had been seized from witnesses, so I'm hopeful, but ugh. If they fire + prosecute the guy without video, the cops are going to have a morale nosedive, which isn't good for anyone. If they decline to fire or prosecute and don't release video showing why, that will also obviously be terrible and probably make the riots worse.

I don't understand the officer's... goals, I guess? In the encounter as described so far. My city has an ordnance requiring people to walk on sidewalks. What that means is that police have a reason to talk to + ID people walking in the street. I don't understand just yelling at someone to get on the sidewalk. It's a super-minor safety issue at most just taken on its own. Its real value is that you can use it to check for warrants, ask someone why they're in the area, that kind of thing. But people, especially in certain neighborhoods here, walk in the street because robbery is common and being further away from points of concealment gives them more time to run or avoid attackers. Simply yelling at them to get on the sidewalk doesn't make any sense.

I just wish I could see what happened.
posted by kavasa at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Dude, it wears me out that people feel they need to defend "black rage". What this country could use a little more of is black rage, if you ask me.

This whole country's motto ought to be "a boot stamping on a human face forever", because that seems to be what everyone does the minute they get a bit of power.
posted by Frowner at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [34 favorites]

Why is the FAA, a federal agency, enacting this restriction?

Because that is their job.

And it isn't that uncommon for them to do that - lots of choppers in a small area is a great recipe for disaster.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

So there's a picture floating around allegedly of the police chief's son in their house, with a Confederate flag on the wall. I wondered how disenfranchised the voters must be in a town that's 67% black to have a police chief like that.

Then I looked at the Ferguson City Council web page. Very post-racial that city, clearly there's very little voting along race lines.
posted by straw at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Compare and contrast to the Bundy Ranch idiocy, and you will conclude either that Black Communities need more AR-15s and Gadsden flags, or that America is unfortunately not a post racial society.

AR-15s and the ownership issues are based in the idea that the citizens would have a way to address an out of control government power structure.

Reporting about a local tattoo and gun shop is slated in the "armed society is a polite society" way. armed ppl "save" strip mall businesses
posted by rough ashlar at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

The last time I read about this, the eyewitness (his friend) had not yet been interviewed by police, but had by the media. Is that still the case?
posted by Chuffy at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2014

Watch Police Shoot Tear Gas at Ferguson Residents Behind a Fence on Private Property
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

Someone please remind me what year it is again?
posted by scody at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

zombieflanders: "Ferguson’s police chief and mayor are white. Of the six City Council members, one is black. The local school board has six white members and one Latino. Of the 53 commissioned officers on the police force, three are black, said Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson."

Haven't followed this story closely, but for those who have: has this stat been reported in the broader media? It's important, and if it's being omitted, rather telling.
posted by aerotive at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

I worked in Ferguson for more than twelve years. It's surreal to see former regulars from the neighborhood bar and grill on CNN.

I'm horrified at the "othering" and the blanket statements made about an entire community, and that so much of the focus has shifted from the shooting of a young man to the actions of a few (criminals, many not even from Ferguson).

Yesterday on the news a reporter asked a policemen if they supported the people's right to protest peacefully, and he said absolutely, they have no problem at all with that, and that they had fired tear gas to disperse the crowd after they didn't comply after having been told to disperse. The reporter said why not just arrest them all? And he said that's the end goal, they wanted to see them all in custody.

Last night they closed the city completely. The media left entirely. People got gassed in their own yards. So much for being allowed to protest.

Here's suggestions for crowd management, from the FBI.

The police here have done the exact opposite of every bit of it, clusterfucking this whole thing at every opportunity.
posted by hypersloth at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [31 favorites]

I'm appalled that I need to specify *which* recent murder of an unarmed black person by police I'm talking about at a given time.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [107 favorites]

I say we start by taking away cops' guns.

That'll fly about as far as pointing out how much money the US of A spends on the various department of defence guns and things that go boom in the night everytime the culture of violence has a violent outburst.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

There were initial reports that phones had been seized from witnesses, so I'm hopeful, but ugh.

I wish this made me hopeful, but right now I'm not that optimistic that any incriminating video on those phones will ever see the light of day.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

The one black Council member is also the person who has been doing a lot of first-hand reporting on the twitters and I believe is responsible for the eyewitness interview linked to up thread?
posted by PMdixon at 2:25 PM on August 12, 2014

It is hard to imagine any legitimate reason to shut down the airspace over the town.
posted by maryr at 2:25 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

The police here have done the exact opposite of every bit of it, clusterfucking this whole thing at every opportunity.

Yeah, this is getting into some Bull Connor territory, here,
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:25 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm appalled that I need to specify *which* national news-making recent murder of an unarmed black person by police I'm talking about at a given time.
posted by PMdixon at 2:26 PM on August 12, 2014 [18 favorites]

The last time I read about this, the eyewitness had not yet been interviewed by police. Is that still the case?

Lawyer: Police Haven't Talked To Michael Brown Shooting Witness

He isn't going to say anything they are interested in having on record.
posted by Artw at 2:27 PM on August 12, 2014 [17 favorites]

Black children deserve to trust the same way I do. I am a white person with two police officers in my family, and I'm observing this situation from a position of considerable privilege. And if I can see the systemic issues at play here, and if I can see how fucked up it is, anyone can.
posted by rewil at 2:29 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

So, who wants to join in my Hug Army^TM? I don't know if it is because I have a small child now, but all I want to do is STOP THE HURTING and give all parties a chance to hug and/or be hugged.
posted by jillithd at 2:31 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

And it isn't that uncommon for them to do that - lots of choppers in a small area is a great recipe for disaster.

As far as I know, this kind of total lockdown of civil airspace during civil unrest is actually very uncommon, especially when it excludes media.

During the LA "Rodney King" riots they had tons of helicopters in the air. Flying in the "Bravo" class commercial airspace that is the normal approach to LAX over South Central LA, not to mention the dozen-odd other regional airports in the area.

Heck, they do this every time there's a car chase, where half a dozen helicopters will be following the same car, along with whatever LAPD or LA Sheriff's helicopters following the same scene.

They manage to keep safe traffic control and aircraft separation just fine. I suspect that Fergusson's airspace is decidedly less crowded and complicated.

The real answer here isn't LEO safety or air safety, but controlling the media and reporting.
posted by loquacious at 2:34 PM on August 12, 2014 [76 favorites]

Ferguson’s police chief and mayor are white. Of the six City Council members, one is black. The local school board has six white members and one Latino.

How does that even happen? The council consists of two members from each of three wards -- I can't imagine how you could remotely gerrymander that small of a system to fuck things up that much.
posted by Etrigan at 2:35 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

News helicopters were all over the airspace during Hurricane Katrina, and that was a national rescue emergency.
posted by naju at 2:38 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wait - Ferguson is right next to the St. Louis Airport. Is 3,000 feet high enough that planes would have to change their approach to avoid the flight ban?
posted by maryr at 2:38 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Local coverage from the St. Louis Post Dispatch.
posted by PHINC at 2:39 PM on August 12, 2014

Is there some way I could chip in a few dollars to help local news stations pay the fines for putting up their helicopters anyway?
posted by LogicalDash at 2:40 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

Unless the Ferguson police has jets with air-to-air missiles, or MANPADs, or some such, if I were a news organization with a helicopter, I would just say "fine us."

They don't have those things, right?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:40 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

I would suspect that the penalties for deliberately ignoring the FAA are worse than just fines, and fall on the pilots as well.
posted by kavasa at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

I remember visiting Germany and thinking it was blurring the line between police and military too much just by having the police wear green.

This? This is fucking ridiculous.
posted by ckape at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

How does that even happen?

Perhaps the voters decided to pick the reps based on qualification VS skin colour? Kind of like how the Democratic party opted to pick that one person over the other persons for the President nomination 6+ years ago.

If you'd like you could weave a tale about crooked voting machines or the mind control powers of the mass media/the power of money over voters.

One could always dig up the public web pages about the voting there to create some kind of narrative to explain 'how that even happened'. Might make a fine Masters level paper for some poly-sci/media degree.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Given some of the mainstream images that have come out of Ferguson (Time, I'm looking at you), I'm not entirely sure Ferguson, MO, media outlets don't find the aerial media blackout quite copacetic.
posted by mistersquid at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2014

And for the love of god, don't read the comments. How do so many racists have so much free time ?

The vitriol displayed in the comments section beggars belief.
I understand slavery being implemented hundreds of years ago. It was wrong, terrible and everything else. But from the owners standpoint it made economic sense.
The hate on display in those comments doesn't make sense. None at all. It seems to be hate for the sake of hate.
A friend always tells me the human specie was tribal, is tribal and will always be tribal. It is so ingrained in our dna that the race will die off before our innate need for tribal affiliation can be bred out of us.
posted by notreally at 2:44 PM on August 12, 2014

Last night they closed the city completely. The media left entirely. People got gassed in their own yards. So much for being allowed to protest.

Jesus christ.
posted by rtha at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives.

. . .

We face, therefore, a moral crisis as a country and a people. It cannot be met by repressive police action. It cannot be left to increased demonstrations in the streets. It cannot be quieted by token moves or talk.

19-sixty-fucking-3.
posted by absalom at 2:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

NYPD urged to step up body-worn camera pilot after chokehold death
posted by Artw at 2:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Christ. Every cop nation wide needs to be wearing a camera at all times.
posted by brundlefly at 2:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [44 favorites]

Maybe it's time for a Mid~~east~~west ~~spring~~ autumn?

I'm sure democracy activists in Ferguson are all on the Twitter, organizing, right?
posted by ennui.bz at 2:51 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

John Crawford III's Family Seeks Video Of Fatal Shooting At Wal-Mart

A lot of mysterious shit happens when they aren't on camera.
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

I can't help but feel like we should all be rioting in the streets. What am I even doing stewing here in an office.
posted by naju at 2:52 PM on August 12, 2014 [22 favorites]

I flew into LAX right after the Rodney King riots, and we had to approach from the west, due to fears of bullets being fired into the air, apparently.

Note that I am not taking the side of the Ferguson police force, just addressing the speculation about closing the airspace.

Right, but that was likely a voluntary safety precaution, not a complete shutdown of the airspace by the FAA. They probably also re-routed the approach because of smoke and visibility issues.

If the FAA simply issued a safety advisory and left it up to the risk of the media helicopter pilots, that would be a different story.
posted by loquacious at 2:52 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Christ. Every cop nation wide needs to be wearing a camera at all times.

"But Rialto's randomised controlled study has seized attention because it offers scientific – and encouraging – findings: after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%." - Guardian piece
posted by hypersloth at 2:53 PM on August 12, 2014 [59 favorites]

So, who wants to join in my Hug ArmyTM? I don't know if it is because I have a small child now, but all I want to do is STOP THE HURTING and give all parties a chance to hug and/or be hugged.

I have two small children and, for their sake, am ready to join the Fu*k-You-Let's-Fight-Back-For-Real Army ^CC.

I've had it, and I'm sick - completely, exhausted sick - of worrying about their growing up in police state.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:55 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

"But Rialto's randomised controlled study has seized attention because it offers scientific – and encouraging – findings: after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%." - Guardian piece

Yeah, there are simply no good arguments for not having video on all cops and in all cop cars at all times (as well as in all interrogation rooms, holding cells etc.). Anyone arguing against them might as well just be saying "but we like getting away with abuse."
posted by yoink at 2:56 PM on August 12, 2014 [36 favorites]

scody: "Anonymous: We are watching [the police] very closely ... If you abuse, harass or harm in any way the protesters in Ferguson we will take every web-based asset of your departments and governments offline. That is not a threat. It is a promise."

I think twirlip's comment is appropriate here.
posted by brundlefly at 2:57 PM on August 12, 2014 [21 favorites]

I just learned about the Tulsa Race Riots in Black Wall Street and I can't help seeing comparisons between these two situations. The results in Tulsa give me chills. I'm praying (and I'm not a praying sort of person) that we reach a better conclusion in Ferguson.
posted by chatongriffes at 2:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I wondered how disenfranchised the voters must be in a town that's 67% black to have a police chief like that.

There are entire states of people who have to deal with that on their own state flag. It's a fucking disgrace to humanity.
posted by elizardbits at 2:59 PM on August 12, 2014 [34 favorites]

Compare and contrast to the Bundy Ranch idiocy, and you will conclude either that Black Communities need more AR-15s and Gadsden flags...

Can you imagine the shitstorm the cops would kick-up if a black neighborhood started open-carry of AR-15s? It would be mayhem.

Unfortunately, there's not a chance in hell of anything being done to reign-in the out-of-control police in this country unless there's literally an Afghani-wedding-hit-by-a-drone level slaughter by cops. And, even then, I'm not convinced anything will be done.

Note to the good cops: Do something, goddammit.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

(Oh, I guess it's just Mississippi now. Georgia saw the light in 2001.)
posted by elizardbits at 3:00 PM on August 12, 2014

Sorry if this has been posted upthread, but NYT ran a piece in June about how the Police are getting the Army's hand-me-downs:

During the Obama administration, according to Pentagon data, police departments have received tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft.

posted by Strass at 3:02 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thorzdad: unfortunately, even walking around with a toy gun is enough to get a black man shot in this country. (comparison of that with a white teen toting an actual weapon as seen on twitter)
posted by rmd1023 at 3:05 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Can you imagine the shitstorm the cops would kick-up if a black neighborhood started open-carry of AR-15s? It would be mayhem.

It would probably go something like this.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:06 PM on August 12, 2014 [20 favorites]

Can you imagine the shitstorm the cops would kick-up if a black neighborhood started open-carry of AR-15s? It would be mayhem.

This was effectively the approach of the Black Panthers in Oakland in 1966-67. It almost immediately led to police attacks on the Panthers and reprisals.
posted by ryanshepard at 3:07 PM on August 12, 2014 [18 favorites]

From Twitter: "Officers in Railto, CA are now required to wear video cameras while on duty. In one year, use of force has dropped 60% & complaints have dropped by 88%."
posted by Phire at 3:08 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

but NYT ran a piece in June about how the Police are getting the Army's hand-me-downs

This year saw record donations of military equipment to police, $752 million worth this year so far.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:09 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

an Afghani-wedding-hit-by-a-drone level slaughter by cops.

Oh, you mean like the MOVE bombing in 1985 that burned 5 children alive? Something like that? The one where the Philly cops fired on people trying to escape the burning building?

Yeah, something like that would surely put the brakes on US police brutality, right?

i mean surely
posted by elizardbits at 3:10 PM on August 12, 2014 [120 favorites]

“to provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities.”

That always seems to be job one, doesn't it? The number of things justified because of cop safety - even as their fatalities and risks decline year after year - never seems to end. Yet at the same time we're expected to hand over all sorts of compensation for how risky the job is.

Are UAVs with cameras, which would likely not be something the black community of Ferguson, MO, would possess, exempt from this restriction? (I think I know the unfortunate answer to that question.)

A friend of mine who does 1Am & communications law asserts they don't have a constitutional ground to ban them and that they have failed to follow proper rulemaking procedure to boot.
posted by phearlez at 3:12 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

Iris Baez: Are the police getting away with murder?
posted by Artw at 3:13 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I've been following this here in St. Louis and except for some of the people the social media (facebook mostly) is just horrible. I am angry and this is just screwed up and I know some of the people protesting and getting shot at with tear gas.

I didn't even know about the FAA resitriction. It hadn't been mentioned on the news as far as I could tell.
posted by lizarrd at 3:14 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I just want to expand on this - when I said it was surreal to see former regulars, I meant the mayor, the cops, and all the residents, not just a handful of people of any one stripe. It was a popular, family-friendly place people loved to go. There is a lot of pride in Ferguson.

I didn't expect the national media to paint anything with a very fine brush, but it's sickening seeing the local news running away, and my FB feed suddenly fracturing into two camps, and realizing a lot of people I know aren't at all what I expected.

Not trying to make this about me, but I've been stuck in my head and very sad, and I'm really glad it's finally on the blue.
posted by hypersloth at 3:17 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

This article sources two explanations for the FAA airspace shutdown: risks due either to firearms or news helicopter crowding. The shutdown isn't unprecedented but seems quite unusual. Particularly troubling that FAA probably isn't terribly concerned about media access, historically they're quite willing to let security concerns trump freedom of the press.

But the airspace thing is a sideshow. What's more important is what's happening on the ground in the next few days, and what happens with the investigation into the police killing. I sure hope all this attention is bringing a whole lot of cameras on the ground to Ferguson.
posted by Nelson at 3:22 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

hypersloth: “The police here have done the exact opposite of every bit of it, clusterfucking this whole thing at every opportunity.”

That's been my observation. At every turn the police in Ferguson have escalated and antagonized in precisely the opposite way sworn officers of the law should address a protest over police violence. After the events of Sunday evening, they're goddamned lucky all that happened were a few broken windows, some stolen tennis shoes and rims, and a burned down gas station.

The militarization of the police isn't reflected just the tactics and equipment they use. For example, look at paranoia in this article from Officer.com from five years ago, "Ambushing / Counter Ambushing, Part 1." We, the public the author is sworn to protect and serve, are the enemy.

I'm sure the author would say that his paranoia is only for the "bad guys." Michael Brown's death is testament to the depravity of that lie. This sentiment must not be allowed. It must be eliminated, root and branch, from our police departments starting at the top. Anyone found to harbor it must be forever barred from positions of authority.

I'm going to leave it at that before I descend into one of my signature Class V Profane Tirades. My sincere thanks to ArtW for having the self-mastery to write this post. The two times I've tried, I didn't get 25 words into before I realized what I wrote was an instant delete and just closed the tap..
posted by ob1quixote at 3:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [60 favorites]

MrMoonPie: “I flew into LAX right after the Rodney King riots, and we had to approach from the west, due to fears of bullets being fired into the air, apparently.

Note that I am not taking the side of the Ferguson police force, just addressing the speculation about closing the airspace.”

I do recall someone saying the helos were being shot at last night. I put about as much stock in that as I do the similar stories from New Orleans during Katrina.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:27 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

Christ. Every cop nation wide needs to be wearing a camera at all times.

If that happened, I'd open a repair business to fix all the cameras that would keep mysteriously malfunctioning and to replace all the storage devices that would keep mysteriously losing recordings.

I bet I'd make enough money to retire to a tropical island after just one year in business.

I feel like there's nothing else I can say that I haven't already said in the various threads about the killing of unarmed black men by police and "concerned" citizens standing their ground, so for Michael Brown, the many before him, and the many who will follow:

.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:28 PM on August 12, 2014 [17 favorites]

I'll note that many traditional media outlets originally, and falsely, reported that the protesters were chanting things like "kill the police", when, in fact they weren't.

But reporting in the USA is totally not racially biased.

This is horribly enraging and depressing at the same time. I know I am utterly and completely powerless, that the majority of American voters really like and support this sort of police action, that the Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that scientific evidence of systemic racism in policing can't be used to justify any sort of change in policing.

And I've got a black eight year old son who is not naturally submissive and I live in terror of his fate at the hands of racist cops.

I have no idea how to fix this, and it desperately needs fixing.

I also predict that the result of this will be, at absolute most a slap on the wrist for the cop who murdered a black kid, and very likely he will be allowed to continue working as a cop. In the end nothing will change, the protesters will be remembered as nothing but vile rioters who got what was coming to them, and the voters will keep right on pushing a war against blacks executed by the police.

elizardbits, actually Georgia arguably went worse in 2001. What we commonly identify as the "Confederate Flag" is actually just a battle flag adopted by parts of the CSA military. The Confederated States of America went through three flag designs during its brief existence, the first one (called "the Stars and Bars" because, reasonably enough, it had stars and bars) looks **EXACTLY** like the Georgia state flag minus the weird Georgia seal and plus a ring of 7 to 13 stars. Essentially Georgia adopted the actual national flag of the CSA as its state flag as an upraised middle finger towards everyone.
posted by sotonohito at 3:37 PM on August 12, 2014 [44 favorites]

"Why are police calling the people of Ferguson animals and yelling at them to “bring it”? "

Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me.

Every cop who did this should be stripped of his badge and gun. What the hell. That is wildly unprofessional and deliberately incendiary.

"Btw -- where are the Oathkeepers protesting clear violations of human rights by the police?"

I had the start of a really dark joke here about it only being 3/5 of a human rights violation as far as the Oathkeepers are concerned but I just want to vomit about the whole thing. I've been only loosely following the story because I knew it would enrage me too much (and I have other shit going on right now that requires emotional attention). I was right.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:41 PM on August 12, 2014 [30 favorites]

Thorzdad: “Note to the good cops: Do something, goddammit.”

Indeed. And I'd add, "While you still have time. If you wait much longer, everyone in blue will be classed a de facto enemy of the people. Dig?"

elizardbits: “(Oh, I guess it's just Mississippi now. Georgia saw the light in 2001.)”

Yeah… see the current flag is really close to the Confederate "Stars and Bars." So, ya know, we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back too hard in the Peach State.

Anyway, I'm going to go look at cat pictures or something for a while. Maybe tonight Christopher Goddamned Hayes will lead with the most important story in the nation instead of the tragic death of Robin Williams. I made my feelings about Williams pretty clear, but damn if that didn't need to be a 120 second "before we go" on All In last night.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [6 favorites]

I have two small children and, for their sake, am ready to join the Fu*k-You-Let's-Fight-Back-For-Real Army CC.

Violence begets violence as we can see is playing out today. We cannot diffuse the situation with more violence. What we need is compassion and some levelheaded leadership.

And a Hug Army^TM.
posted by jillithd at 3:44 PM on August 12, 2014

The only reason a cop can kill a kid in cold blood like this is in good part a reasonable expectation that he can get away with it largely "unscathed". This is the problem everywhere in America where a cop can kill a person on camera and still pretty much walk away with nothing more than a couple of administrative slaps on the wrist.

The man who shot and killed Mike Brown should face murder charges - his career ended in shame and a long time behind bars to pay for what he's done to a citizen he was supposed to protect from the kind of violence he delivered - the kind of violence that, carried out by anybody else, would result in serious, long-term consequences.

Thanks for posting this OP.
Ferguson, keep raising your chants and demands for justice.
posted by fantodstic at 3:45 PM on August 12, 2014 [26 favorites]

Essentially Georgia adopted the actual national flag of the CSA as its state flag as an upraised middle finger towards everyone.

UGH TRUE I didn't even notice that, I was so busy being confused as to why Florida and Alabama both have St Pat's flag as their state flag, and why is hawaii flying the union jack? what is happen

Oh i see texas has incorporated the bonnie blue, no surprise there
posted by elizardbits at 3:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile the shooter has not been named to preserve his safety.

The rage in me wants to say "What about Michael Brown's safety?"

But then I know that meeting injustice with injustice won't change anything, even if it feels right.

MLK Jr. comes to bear here:

My friends, we've followed the so-called practical way for a long time now. Time is cluttered with the wreckage of communities which surrendered into hatred and violence. We are going to follow another way: we will not abandon our righteous efforts. With every ounce of our strength we will continue to rid the nation of the incubus of segregation. But we will not in the process relinquish our privilege and our obligation to love. While abhorring segregation, we will love the segregationist. This is the only way to build the beloved community.

To our most bitter opponents we say 'We shall meet your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will and we will continue to love you. We cannot obey your unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as it is to cooperate with good. But throw us in jail, we will still love you; send your hooded perpetrators of violence into our community and beat us, and we will still love you. But be ye assured that we will wear you down.

One day we will win freedom, but not only for ourselves, we will so appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win you in the process, and so our victory will be a double-victory.
posted by allkindsoftime at 3:53 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

This is a situation where the governor of Missouri should be calling off the local cops, bringing in the National Guard, and settling the legalities later on.

And, the "hands up" tactic of the protestors is brilliant and inspiring.
posted by beagle at 3:53 PM on August 12, 2014 [49 favorites]

Violence begets violence as we can see is playing out today.

What about systematic oppression and inequality under the law? Does that beget violence?

I think it's fine to advocate for nonviolence, but lets all realize that in this situation we're asking the people in the streets to basically be the Tiananmen tank man. Nonviolence--as either a political or spiritual tactic--isn't about not disrupting our everyday lives with yucky, scary hostility. It takes a tremendous amount of courage because it's about absorbing the violence of your oppressor.

What we need is compassion and some levelheaded leadership.

Let me know when you find that.
posted by mondo dentro at 3:53 PM on August 12, 2014 [20 favorites]

I'd really like to know what the best and strongest arguments are for shutting down the airspace before I do something like contact congressional staff for my local offices and start encouraging them to investigate the decision.

The policy cited seems like it's a stretch.
posted by weston at 3:57 PM on August 12, 2014

Eyebrows McGee: “I had the start of a really dark joke here about it only being 3/5 of a human rights violation[…]”

“Where the Sidewalk Ends,” Kevin D. Williamson, National Review, 11 August 2014

East St. Louis, Ill. —‘Hey, hey craaaaaacka! Cracka! White devil! F*** you, white devil!” The guy looks remarkably like Snoop Dogg: skinny enough for a Vogue advertisement, lean-faced with a wry expression, long braids. He glances slyly from side to side, making sure his audience is taking all this in, before raising his palms to his clavicles, elbows akimbo, in the universal gesture of primate territorial challenge. Luckily for me, he’s more like a three-fifths-scale Snoop Dogg, a few inches shy of four feet high, probably about nine years old, and his mom — I assume she’s his mom — is looking at me with an expression that is a complex blend of embarrassment, pity, and amusement, as though to say: “Kids say the darnedest things, do they not, white devil?”

posted by ob1quixote at 3:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

Obama's statement on this:

The death of Michael Brown is heartbreaking, and Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to his family and his community at this very difficult time. As Attorney General Holder has indicated, the Department of Justice is investigating the situation along with local officials, and they will continue to direct resources to the case as needed. I know the events of the past few days have prompted strong passions, but as details unfold, I urge everyone in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country, to remember this young man through reflection and understanding. We should comfort each other and talk with one another in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. Along with our prayers, that’s what Michael and his family, and our broader American community, deserve.

That statement really doesn't sit right with me, at all. I know I can't expect anything else from someone whose job it is to keep the peace and status quo authority, but it's essentially: "be docile and behaved. Don't make any waves." Well now is not the time to be subdued, reflective and understanding. This is the perfect time to be fucking pissed off.
posted by naju at 4:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [33 favorites]

MLK Jr. comes to bear here

"What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Obama's statement on this

God, could he be any more toothless?
posted by sallybrown at 4:04 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

My snarling dog is coming out. This pisses me off so fucking bad.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:04 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Christ. Every cop nation wide needs to be wearing a camera at all times.
If that happened, I'd open a repair business to fix all the cameras that would keep mysteriously malfunctioning and to replace all the storage devices that would keep mysteriously losing recordings.

During months that camera footage is unavailable due to malfunctions, payroll should be unavailable on a department-wide level until the footage is.
posted by weston at 4:04 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

Did these cops not watch Eyes on the Prize in middle school like everyone else? Did it just not effect them? Are they "truthers" who believe in the boondocks school of thought that all black people now are stupid and lol and totally desecrating that dream? Do they think they're not complicit in the causes of that?

Because all this is missing is firehoses, unless i haven't seen the photos of that.

And i don't even think we regressed as a society, i think that's giving us too much credit. I think in some areas, and in some ways as a whole we simply have not advanced as much as we'd like to think since those days.

Or at all.

This is seriously one of the most upsetting things i've ever heard. The blow should have been softened for me, i my idealism as a young teen has worn off that we had truly made great steps towards being an equal, star trek like society. But i thought that america, as a whole, was at least better than this. Like, i knew how much fucked up shit had been going on nationwide with cops, but this is indistinguishable from the shit my mom saw as a child.

What's next, reinstate the draft and do another vietnam in the middle east?

I'm just fucking depressed even thinking about this. a . doesn't even cover it.

mistersquid: Are UAVs with cameras, which would likely not be something the black community of Ferguson, MO, would possess, exempt from this restriction? (I think I know the unfortunate answer to that question.)

phearlez: A friend of mine who does 1Am & communications law asserts they don't have a constitutional ground to ban them and that they have failed to follow proper rulemaking procedure to boot.

Regardless of actual legality, i think this would be decided like this and not in the courts.

I mean really, they're driving around in what appear to be MRAPs. I'm not even capable of imagining them doing anything but lighting the fucking thing(s) up. They'd be smashed to bits on the ground from a couple hits with intermediate cartridge-sized rifles as soon as they got eyes on them.

lord_wolf: If that happened, I'd open a repair business to fix all the cameras that would keep mysteriously malfunctioning and to replace all the storage devices that would keep mysteriously losing recordings.

All cruiser and officer cameras have network-diverse cell data coverage from two carriers, all cameras stream video/audio data to city or state servers. all server data is mirrored on, from the departments perspective, write only servers owned by the DOJ.

This doesn't have to be 1080p hd, and it doesn't even have to be 30fps. it could be 480p at 20fps with mono audio and it would serve its purpose.

All data is kept for at least 6 months, and if it gets marked for any reason it's kept until the statute of limitations runs out. If it's ever used in court, it's kept forever.

There should be a website on which any citizen can go, select a time and location, and any videos from within X number of blocks or Y spread of time in a decent sized buffer all directions are marked to be held.

Any failure of the camera to record, that isn't recorded in its memory as or determined to be an electronic failure outside of the officers control is grounds for suspension and a full investigation. There should be several spare officer cameras stored in the car(in a charging dock, just like the radio already are), and several fail-safes to set off lights and beepers notifying the officer that the unit is malfunctioning so they can swap them out. It should also have several hours of internal storage, but immediately upload as soon as it acquires a signal if it lost it for any reason.

I'm not saying this would solve the elephant sized problem. But imagine the problems it could solve. And yea i know, engineering solution to a social problem, etc.
posted by emptythought at 4:08 PM on August 12, 2014 [34 favorites]

From Buzzfeed: Black Residents In Ferguson, Missouri, Are Stopped And Arrested Far More Than Whites

I wish I could say I was surprised at Mike Brown's killing, or the protests and riots that followed, or the police's violent, incendiary response. This is par for the course for black people in this country.

Obama's statement on this

This response tiptoes around the elephant in the room.
posted by supermassive at 4:11 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

In addition to cameras, I think police uniforms should include large, sports-jersey like names and numbers on the front and back.
posted by fings at 4:12 PM on August 12, 2014 [82 favorites]

Obama's statement on this
This response tiptoes around the elephant in the room.

The last major black political figures who didn't tiptoe got assassinated - Malcom X and Martin Luther King.
posted by srboisvert at 4:17 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

The last major black political figures who didn't tiptoe got assassinated - Malcom X and Martin Luther King.

I understand that Obama has his hands tied when it comes to talking about race/racism. It's just that the response is... frustrating, even as I understand its necessity.
posted by supermassive at 4:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

The last major black political figures who didn't tiptoe got assassinated - Malcom X and Martin Luther King.

John Lewis on Trayvon Martin:

This shooting is a tragedy. It reminds me too much of what happened in the 1930s, 40s and 50s in this country when thousands of people of color were murdered without impunity simply because their lives were thought to be cheap. The death of Trayvon Martin has a chilling effect on black parents and their children, especially their sons.

They realize that in the 21st century they may still live in a circumstance where the law is no protection, government authorities permit the worst violence, and little is done to enforce justice. Hundreds and thousands of African American boys in Atlanta and other urban cities are killed, just disappear everyday. Of all the violence we hear about on the news, we rarely hear the stories of these boys. It’s as though no one even expects them to survive so their loss is not newsworthy.

There are forces in America today who want to take us back. They are suppressing voting rights across the country and encouraging legislatures like that in Georgia to expand the right to carry and use violent weapons.This tragedy is a reminder to all those concerned about justice that we cannot be complacent. There is no door that closes, no wall that is built, no line drawn in the sand that prevents us from going back. The only prevention is us.

We must get informed, know the history, be aware of current attempts to change progressive law. We must advocate and struggle against regression and injustice and march in the streets if necessary to dramatize the need for justice.

posted by sallybrown at 4:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

It's hard to know what to do about this kind of thing from a distance, but if I were a millionaire I think I might Fedex every household in that town a digital recording device, set up for live streaming to an internet uplink covertly installed nearby. Maybe there's a Kickstarter idea in there somewhere.
posted by uosuaq at 4:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

That statement really doesn't sit right with me, at all. I know I can't expect anything else from someone whose job it is to keep the peace and status quo authority, but it's essentially: "be docile and behaved. Don't make any waves."

It would be stupidly irresponsible for Obama to say "you need to go out there and rip shit up!" What is worth noting about Obama's speech is that it talks of Michael Brown simply as a victim whose death needs both to be collectively mourned and also to be investigated by the appropriate authorities. And he assures people that the appropriate, federal, authorities are going to pursue an investigation and seek justice for Brown. If I was the cop who shot Brown I wouldn't feel any too confident about my future at this point.
posted by yoink at 4:25 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

For those of you who are asking where the Oathkeepers are, let me say I think it would be incredibly irresponsible to open carry there without the invitation of the community. It's one thing risking your life, another thing entirely to risk other people's lives.
posted by corb at 4:26 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh an Obama assurance, haven't had one of those let me down yet!
posted by Metafilter Username at 4:27 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

If I was the cop who shot Brown I wouldn't feel any too confident about my future at this point.

I don't know. Every single similar case in any country I've ever lived in has seemed to work out pretty okay for the officers involved.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 4:27 PM on August 12, 2014 [27 favorites]

Okay, really gonna close this and watch some cartoons or something after I post a couple of inks from the "Broken Windows" thread from the last couple of days:

“Outrage in Ferguson”
“This St. Louis alderman is offering a terrifying inside look at the chaos in Ferguson.”

And finally this, which always brings me comfort at times of strife: "On the Mindless Menace of Violence"—Robert F. Kennedy, 5 April 1968
posted by ob1quixote at 4:30 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

I don't know. Every single similar case in any country I've ever lived in has seemed to work out pretty okay for the officers involved.

Francis Livoti spent six years in the clink and is now singing at parties to make ends meet after killing Anthony Baez. Laurence Powell and Stacey Koon both picked up 32 months for beating the shit out of Rodney King. Dennis Spaulding just scored five years and David Cari picked up two and a half for their troubles bullying a Latino guy.

The feds do go after that second bite of the apple quite a bit.
posted by Talez at 4:36 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

"The world that America seeks is not one we can build on our own. For human rights to reach those who suffer the boot of oppression, we need your voices to speak out. In particular, I appeal to those nations who emerged from tyranny and inspired the world in the second half of the last century, from South Africa to South Asia, from Eastern Europe to South America. Don't stand idly by, don't be silent when dissidents elsewhere are imprisoned and protesters are beaten. Recall your own history, because part of the price of our own freedom is standing up for the freedom of others."
-Barack Obama
posted by Metafilter Username at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

Maybe we should be glad the airspace has been closed. If you're in a car chase with the cops, and a news helicopter fucks up and crashes, you get charged with the deaths of the people in the chopper. Who's to say that doesn't apply to "resisting" the police as well?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:42 PM on August 12, 2014

Michael Brown's father's statement:

I just want justice for my son. I really do. I need justice for my son...I understand everybody has their own pains because they have losses too, but I need everyone to come together and do this the right way so we can get something done about this. No violence, man.

posted by yoink at 4:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

Well now is not the time to be subdued, reflective and understanding. This is the perfect time to be fucking pissed off.

There's "line up in front of the police headquarters and hold up signs and chant slogans" fucking pissed off...

...and there's "loot and burn random businesses in the neighborhood who employ your friends and neighbors and had absolutely nothing to do with the injustice" fucking pissed off.

I'm totally in favor of the former. But there's been too much of the latter, which makes the cops crack down on everyone.
posted by Foosnark at 4:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Does the military garb these riot police are wearing lead to a decreased sense of social responsibility? Isn't part of what makes this so deadly is that when you look like soldiers you act like soldiers?

I made this argument over here very recently. I like to think it's more than specious, because those sorts of vehicles, body armor, weapons, and tactics are just inherently antagonistic. It's like putting boxing gloves on drunk people and expecting them not to act like everythings a punching bag or a boxing match.
posted by emptythought at 4:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [11 favorites]

"He was going for my gun" is the "The dog ate my homework" of police shootings. It's such a stock excuse, referring to something so freakishly unusual, it's embarrassing to hear someone claim it, given how astronomical the odds are that they're not entirely full of shit.

To be fair, the last time I heard it claimed (in Seattle a month ago) the footage turned out to actually show the kid pulling out a gun right before he was shot. So it does actually happen (although I have no idea what the stats are on proven-true, proven-false and undetermined truthfulness of the claim).
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's "he was going for my gun" not "he was going for a gun".
posted by Metafilter Username at 4:45 PM on August 12, 2014 [15 favorites]

This has been a cascading FAIL of law enforcement from the very beginning, with mistakes and apparent misconduct being compounded by bad judgment every step of the way.

From the initial altercation in which Mike Brown was shot and killed, to the failure to cover the body as it lay in the street for hours after the shooting, to the absurd story of that altercation being told by the cops, to the heavy handed presence at the demonstration the next night, to the military style blockade, use of gas and rubber bullets, etc. last night, it's almost as if the police have been trying to deliberately escalate tensions, not calm them.

From the reports I've seen this afternoon, it sounds like they may have taken a less confrontational posture at today's demonstrations, but of course that could change again at any minute. At least no one else in addition to Mike Brown has been killed or seriously injured so far.

And for those wondering, all that military style hardware does not necessarily belong to the city of Ferguson; the cops there are being supported by a couple of dozen other local police departments, including St. Louis County and the Missouri State Highway Patrol, both of which are likely to have considerably more resources than Ferguson, which as a town is small and not wealthy.

Also, in addition to the obvious issues of racism, historically there's also been a real problem with the basic competence of the cops in some of these smaller municipalities. (St. Louis County contains nearly a hundred different municipalities and towns, many of which have their own police departments, in addition to the County cops, who patrol unincorporated areas and those towns that don't have their own.) Compared to the bigger departments, the hiring standards are lax, the pay is low, and the professionalism is lacking.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 4:47 PM on August 12, 2014 [6 favorites]

Made the mistake of checking Twitter before I put on the ballgame. Antonio French deserves a medal for his series of Tweets/Vines "In #Ferguson Right Now."

I swear to God the cops in Ferguson are so stupid they couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. Send out riot cops to roust a group of mothers protesting after three nights of violence? Sounds like just the thing that will calm the situation rather than further fan the flames.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:48 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

National Moment of Silence events are being organized (on Facebook, sorry) in cities across the country.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to gun down black teenagers. It's terrifying and puzzling.
posted by Metafilter Username at 4:55 PM on August 12, 2014 [67 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.

It's almost like enraged people don't think clearly! You should really head straight out there and help them sort out their faculties. Let me know how it goes!
posted by Talez at 4:55 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors.

a lot of those stores aren't perceived as being run by neighbors - a lot of the time, they're owned and run by people from iraq, pakistan or india - it's pretty common in my town - kalamazoo - and all over the place

there are some who don't think they are part of the community because of this - that's wrong, but there are those who think so
posted by pyramid termite at 4:55 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.

Well it's a manifestation of desperation, feeling like all the cards are stacked against you. Because they are. What I find terrifying and puzzling is white panic over race riots always, always taking precedence over the war on black people this country is already waging every day. Seriously.
posted by naju at 4:57 PM on August 12, 2014 [40 favorites]

Let's see, on the one hand we have some property theft and damages (by some random black people) and on the other hand we have a teenager who was shot and killed (by the cops), fumbling attempts (by the cops) to cover up the murder that was committed (by the cops), tear gassing of mothers on private property (by the cops) and a ban on media helicopters (by a Federal body at the request of the cops). Which one should we be terrified and puzzled by again?
posted by Metafilter Username at 5:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [58 favorites]

jillithd: "Violence begets violence as we can see is playing out today. We cannot diffuse the situation with more violence. What we need is compassion and some levelheaded leadership."

The Andrew W.K. thread is thattaway...
posted by symbioid at 5:01 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

FWIW, police officers in my city are forbidden by policy from covering bodies. You can do things line strange vehicles to block the view of them, but covering is not allowed. You call the homicide car and crime lab, they do their thing, and the ME transports the body. Covering the body can alter or destroy evidence, which is why it's not allowed.
posted by kavasa at 5:01 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

It seems a lot of people still bring up Trayvon Martin, but my impression after reading the wikipedia page is that that specific case was not racially motivated, although the treatment by police after the event is much lighter than you'd expect if Zimmerman was black. Am I missing something?

The killing of Trayvon Martin was set in motion by Zimmerman's perception that Trayvon was threatening and needed to be stopped and questioned, which then snowballed to Zimmerman shooting Trayvon when Zimmerman "felt" under attack (this is of course accepting Zimmerman's version of events, about which we should be skeptical, to say the least). Trayvon was an unarmed kid walking home from the store with candy and soda. What was so "scary" about him to Zimmerman? Hmmm, I wonder...
posted by sallybrown at 5:03 PM on August 12, 2014 [16 favorites]

but the one thing i cannot get my head around is how the hell a 2/3 african american town ends up with the vast majority of their officers being white, not to mention the elected officials

just what kind of dirty business has been done in that town to permit this kind of thing

the murder needs investigating - the police response to the community needs investigating - but most of all, the way that whole town government works needs investigating - this shit doesn't happen without serious graft and massive violations of civil rights

ferguson needs to be exposed
posted by pyramid termite at 5:09 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.

Because the people who deserve the brunt of their rage are heavily armed and armored?
posted by Bookhouse at 5:10 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

"Can you imagine the shitstorm the cops would kick-up if a black neighborhood started open-carry of AR-15s? It would be mayhem."

"Waco to Ruby Ridge/
white privilege is:/
'let the modified uzi spit, 30 shot clips'/
that won't fly where you moolies live..."

-Billy Woods, Mozambique

posted by still bill at 5:17 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

As to the looting -- which is a shame, and a distraction -- I sometimes wonder if part of it comes from a feeling that if "the law" turns out only to be there for white people, then, well, the hell with the law. That's the best construction I can put on it. It would be great if someone could actually take a survey of looters to find out what was on their minds, but I don't see that happening.

Also, as to the ridiculous overmilitarization of the police force that was sent out to, you know, serve and protect the protesters...I've always figured some of it was to do with having all this totally rad gear and finally having a chance to use it. I mean, it makes intuitive sense to me that (for example) if you give tasers to a whole lot of cops and tell them they won't actually *kill* anybody, some of those cops are going to start to look for an excuse to try them out... But I also wonder if another motivation, higher up the managerial structure, is that by using some of that stuff, you prove that it needs to be in next year's budget.
I think the arming of the police force has gotten out of hand, and it would be good to understand exactly what's driving it. (Compare the news from August 6th that "a small number of police officers are now routinely carrying sidearms while on patrol in parts of the mainland UK." Our guys are about 2 years away from having full-on tanks.)
posted by uosuaq at 5:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

A fair point, kavasa. When I mentioned the body being uncovered upthread, I wasn't thinking that they could just throw a sheet or tarp over it, for the reasons you cite. But there was no attempt made to block the view of it with vehicles, a portable tent like I've seen at some crime scenes, or anything at all. This was, understandably, very upsetting to people.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 5:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

One way to express your thoughts is to join the 2014 National Moment of Silence for victims of police brutality in your area, scheduled for August 14. I believe it's a candlelight vigil.
posted by emjaybee at 5:21 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

Iris Baez: Are the police getting away with murder?

That's almost like the opposite of Betteridge's law.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:25 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

Correction to my above quote from Billy Woods:

"Waco to Ruby Ridge/
white privilege is:/
'fuck the police, let the modified uzi spit, 30 shot clip'/
that won't fly where you moolies live..."
posted by still bill at 5:31 PM on August 12, 2014

This tumblr collects #iftheygunnedmedown photos.
posted by box at 5:34 PM on August 12, 2014 [16 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors.

Of nine people charged today, only one lived in Ferguson.

but the one thing i cannot get my head around is how the hell a 2/3 african american town ends up with the vast majority of their officers being white, not to mention the elected officials

This article helps explain it.
posted by hypersloth at 5:37 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

"but the one thing i cannot get my head around is how the hell a 2/3 african american town ends up with the vast majority of their officers being white, not to mention the elected officials"

Who's registered to vote? Who shows up to vote? What barriers are there against registration (birth certificate? photo ID?) and voting (transportation? job time off?)? Are felons barred from voting even after serving their sentences to completion? (What percent of felons in Missouri are black men with nonviolent drug offenses?) How packed or stacked are voting wards? What is the time commitment for serving in public office, what is the pay rate, and who can afford to give that kind of low-compensated or uncompensated time away from work or family obligations?

How hard is it to file to run for office? Usually it requires 4-8 weekends of "walking" door to door for signatures, or a fairly significant filing fee, to keep "joke" candidates off the ballots. How much does running a campaign cost? Even little local campaigns cost $3,000; you've got to either pay that out of pocket or raise it. What civic involvement are candidates expected to have had? (Local charity boards? Chamber of Commerce? Volunteer leadership?) How much opportunity to black citizens have to serve in those positions, which are typically selected by other prominent citizens? How interracial are the "networks" in the city? How much access do black candidates have to voter lists? When does the candidate "pipeline" begin and how much access do black citizens have to the pipeline? How active are local parties in recruiting and grooming minority candidates? How many people have the emotional wherewithal to stay engaged, for years at a time, in a system that never answers their concerns?

It's a systemic racism problem (and a systemic classism problem). There are a lot of solutions at the politics-and-elections level that people try, that solve bits of the problem, but they often have unintended consequences and are never as successful as one hopes. The real solution is at the "systemic racism" level, IMHO. (Although we should, of course, be doing what we can do to ameliorate that at the politics-and-elections level.)

I have a ... friendly acquaintance? political colleague? who is black, and who was convicted of grand theft auto when he was 17. Tried as an adult. Felony on his record. He was released from jail 40 years ago and he's devoted 40 years of his life to running local businesses, being involved in local politics, and mentoring young black men in crisis heading down a similar path to his early years. For 40 years he's been a model citizen, and one who's used his own mistakes as a teenager to try to help other young men. He's ineligible for elected office in our jurisdiction. He has been trying for 12 years to have his felony expunged solely so he can run for office (well, I mean, he runs every four years anyway, but he gets thrown off the ballot for being a felon every four years, and then sues, and then comes back, it's clockwork), but he doesn't have enough connections to enough important people to get the governor's attention. And he's a well-respected and well-connected business owner with the personal resources to pursue repeated lawsuits about this. Which makes me pessimistic about the whole thing.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:39 PM on August 12, 2014 [168 favorites]

I was just going to say systematic oppression and entrenched poverty, but Eyebrows McGee does a much better job, here.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:42 PM on August 12, 2014

xmutex: “I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.”

Bookhouse: “Because the people who deserve the brunt of their rage are heavily armed and armored?”

Also that the legitimate targets are human beings.

When things like this happen people get frustrated. They get angry. Enraged even. They're good people though, so instead of hurting someone they take out their anger on things. People do that all the time. Hell, there's a place in Dallas where you can rent a room full of plates and stuff you can smash with a baseball bat for $25 for five minutes.

Sure, some people who loot are opportunists of the "The cops are all into something. It's Christmas. You could steal City Hall" variety. I think what starts it though, is the need to vent anger that otherwise might be channeled towards a human being.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:44 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

This shot should earn some awards for the photographer.
posted by octothorpe at 5:47 PM on August 12, 2014 [41 favorites]

This shot should earn some awards for the photographer.

Suggested caption: Bull Connor Lives
posted by scody at 5:54 PM on August 12, 2014

"We're not a 'post-racial' society. We're the 'innocent until proven racist' society: When you encourage white people to be ‘blind’ to race, white people also become blind to racism"
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:55 PM on August 12, 2014 [21 favorites]

This is such unreal bullshit. Enacting a no-fly zone, refusing to release the name of the murderer of a young man, tear-gassing people in their yards?

Well done, America. Well done.
posted by Kitteh at 5:56 PM on August 12, 2014 [6 favorites]

Anyone remember when 'Brutal and Negligent Cops Drove [Point Marion]'s Police Department Out of Business'. Ya know, Ferguson has only 20k people, while Point Marion had 1200. Any chance Ferguson won't have a police department anymore once the ACLU, NAACP, etc. get done with them?
posted by jeffburdges at 5:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

This shot should earn some awards for the photographer.

It's already been compared to Goya.
posted by Numenius at 6:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [12 favorites]

There's also this angle. The mailbox makes a compelling point.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:06 PM on August 12, 2014 [21 favorites]

Apparently the excuse they're giving for the no-fly zone is that the police claim that someone shot at their police helicopter. Of course, I don't believe anything coming out of the Ferguson Police Department right now, but if the FAA has to take their statements at face value then the airspace restriction isn't totally unreasonable.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:13 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

A sort of self-link to my Twitter feed, but I made this.... That's what I was thinking of.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:13 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm not trying to minimize the potential harm from rubber bullets, item, and the wooden, so-called less lethal "baton rounds" apparently fired last night look quite nasty as well. In this case, I'm using "seriously injured" to mean "hurt badly enough to require hospital admission." The wounds suffered by the people who got hit by these things are no joke, but so far, they all seem to have been treated-and-released types of injuries.

Also, it looks now as if the cops may be getting confrontational again. The local NPR affiliate is compiling Tweets, Vine videos, etc, from Antonio French, their own reporters, and others in real time on a timeline that, all in all, seems to be one of the better running accounts of events out there right now.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 6:18 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

It's amazing what injuries can be treated-and-released when the patient can't afford to go to the hospital.
posted by Metafilter Username at 6:21 PM on August 12, 2014 [15 favorites]

I suspect that Fergusson's airspace is decidedly less crowded and complicated.

In this case, it's very much not. There's a bunch of restrictions flying in that area because it's under the Class B airspace for KSTL, because Ferguson is right next to Lambert St. Louis International and very close to the landing pattern of the main runways.

Anything 8000' or below has to be in contact with the STL terminal controllers before they can even get close to that area, and it doesn't allow SVFR operations period. And the rule for Class B is clear "You must have ATC clearance to enter and be prepared for denial of clearance.^*

So, while I clearly think this is an attempt to shut down the media, this isn't your average suburb in the middle of nowhere. The FAA, and STL ATC doesn't want this airspace full of helicopters at any time.

Those of you thinking UAVs? Absolutely banned at all times from Class B airspace, and rightfully so. Class B airspace exists only around the 37 busiest airports in the country. Way too many operations, and way too many operations at low level. I wouldn't be surprised if planes were under 2000' passing near Ferguson if they're landing on 30R or 24.

* N90, New York TRACON, and SCT, Southern California TRACON, are usually pricks about this. Unless you were in one of the VFR corridors, the answer is NO. C90, the Chicago TRACON, used to be utter pricks about this. They'd happily give you directions, but not utter the all important phrase "Cleared to enter our airspace." Then they'd call the FAA and send the tapes, which showed clearly that at no time had they cleared you to enter the airspace. Then you got a certified letter from the FAA saying your pilots licenses was suspended pending resolution of a violation of Class B airspace, which is more than enough to get your ticket pulled permanently.

Now, C90 is just the regular sort of "NO" pricks.
posted by eriko at 6:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

America Is Not For Black People
posted by Artw at 6:26 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

“Michael Brown shooting unearths Ferguson’s deeper troubles,” Trymaine Lee, MSNBC, 12 August 2014

Brown, an unarmed black teen who was shot and killed by a police officer on Saturday afternoon, lit a fuse that snakes back as long as most here can remember. That fuse is a winding twine of what many black residents in Ferguson – and the broad patchwork of poor black towns that dot the near suburbs of St. Louis – say is daily harassment by police, occasional acts of brutality.

posted by ob1quixote at 6:32 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Apparently the excuse they're giving for the no-fly zone is that the police claim that someone shot at their police helicopter.

I would be very angry and surprised if Ferguson owned a helicopter. It's probably St. Louis County's -- and it was the County that requested the TFR, not Ferguson.

Important Political Fact: St. Louis County has nothing to do with The City of St. Louis. In the county, there is a lot of unincorporated area, which is policed by the county directly, and a bunch of small municipalities, policed by a combination of municipal and county police. The City has police at the Airport, which is an exclave of the city, but that's it.

Important Historical Anecdote: When I was living there, Ferguson Cops were dicks who basically existed solely to give tickets to people driving on I-70 and I-270, the vast majority of whom were black, of course, but they weren't above nailing anybody in a cheap or decent car. A Mercedes or BMW meant there was too much of chance you were either a lawyer or could afford one to raise shit, so they didn't get ticketed.
posted by eriko at 6:36 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

I find it alarming that Rachel Maddow pointed out that the person that was with Michael at the time of the shooting has NOT been interviewed by the DA nor the police department and that the results of the autopsy (how many bullets are in Michaels body) has not been made public.
posted by robbyrobs at 6:36 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

OK, since my comment appears to have been modded, I'll try it again, this time without the cussing:

Metafilter Username, please don't try to twist my words. You know nothing about the wounded individuals, their personal economic circumstances, or whether or not they can afford medical care, and are using a stereotype to take a cheap shot. My sympathies are with the Brown family and the people of Ferguson, and I'm appalled by the use of these weapons. If I had justyped "Lucky no one else has been killed so far," would that be sufficient to satisfy your sense of semantics?
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 6:38 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I live in a community adjacent to Ferguson. The protests in Ferguson have been happening about six miles from my house.

So here is how things actually went down with that riot on Sunday. Michael Brown was shot in broad daylight in the afternoon on Saturday. Lots of witnesses. Word spread quickly locally. Of course, not a lot of people watch the news on Saturday night, so it wasn't really until Sunday that many people outside of the immediate neighborhood knew about it.

Michael's parents, some of his neighbors, and some local black community leaders planned a vigil and a protest for Sunday night. The vigil was to honor Michael. The protest was meant to be a march to the Ferguson police station. To demand that the police department submit to an investigation by someone outside of St. Louis County. To demand the immediate suspension of the officer who committed the shooting from the force. To demand the release of the police officer's name, and other information about the shooting that the police department had been withholding.

From the get-go Michael's parents called for peace even as they made a demand for justice. Our son was a nonviolent person, they said. We do not want any violence committed in his name.

The police showed up Sunday night with reinforcements from St. Louis County PD and several other municipalities. I've heard reports of 100- 300 police officers showing up that night to confront MAYBE a couple of hundred unarmed, peaceful protesters. Some of the officers showed up in full riot gear, with gas masks. BEFORE ANY RIOT STARTED. And they brought police dogs. Which lead to lovely images like this.

SOMEHOW this situation let to some locals getting angry and throwing rocks. Gee. Can anyone imagine how?

Then some fools hearing about these events over social media came and decided to start a full-scale riot. Stole some liquor. Set a gas station on fire. The police arrested about 30 people for rioting. The police have since confirmed that most of the people arrested for rioting were NOT from Ferguson and were NOT part of the protest.

Then came Monday morning. Ferguson residents and neighbors from nearby communities, including many protesters, gathered to clean up after the riot, bringing brooms and shovels out of their own homes. There was a second rally, put together by religious leaders, planned for 10 am. It had in fact already been planned and advertised before the riots of the night before. On a local TV news station at 8 am Monday morning, the mayor of Ferguson announced that St. Louis County and Ferguson police had decided that protest needed to be canceled. And that they would IMMEDIATELY ARREST ANYONE WHO SHOWED UP.

A local social media shitstorm ensued. I may have participated. The police suddenly remembered for a minute that freedom of assembly is in the Constitution. And they reversed their "cancellation."

That protest went on without much trouble. As did a "town hall" gathering at a church Monday evening put together by local community leaders and the NAACP. At this meeting, in addition to calls for justice for Michael Brown, there was condemnation of the rioting. There were loud calls for peace. But so many people wanted to attend the church meeting that there wasn't enough room. Hundreds gathered outside. No place to go. Some of people decided to go back down to the place where the riots had happened the night before, and hold a new (peaceful) protest there. A few local political leaders, including St. Louis City Alderman Antonio French and my own State Senator, Maria Chappelle Nadal, wound up at this protest, as well as some of Mike Brown's relatives. It was another peaceful protest, like the one that morning. It was NOT a riot.

And THAT is when police from every damn department in the county and the Missouri Highway Patrol showed up with enough military gear to subdue a town full of Taliban soldiers.

Police who barricaded the streets, stopped traffic, rerouted buses and blocked off access to people's homes, then shot tear gas into the crowd, demanded people go home immediately, and shot rubber bullets at the people who complained that the police were blocking their way home. Police who kept demanding that the media move or leave or stop filming them. Police who pointed a rifle at that alderman, Antonio French, and blocked a car carrying my State Senator. Police who dragged a pregnant woman from a car, threw her to the ground, and maced her.

The police in STL have LOST THEIR GODDAMN MINDS. I just can't even. I cannot.

I have lived in St. Louis for 33 years, most of that time in North County. I am white (Mostly. I look white, at any rate, and get treated that way). I support these protests. I was sad and angry about the riots. But more than anything, what the police are doing to my community right now is making me sick with rage.
posted by BlueJae at 6:40 PM on August 12, 2014 [310 favorites]

Maddow did mention at the end of that bit that the StL county police and the FBI had now scheduled / asked to set up interviews with the witness. But yeah, as she said, it's bewildering that it hasn't happened yet.
posted by shortfuse at 6:41 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Empress, this pic is an even closer parallel to the 60s pic. I've seen an even better on on Twitter/Tumblr (same angle, dog has similar pose) but I can't find it.
posted by emjaybee at 6:43 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

ALSO: it is important to note that Ferguson is a nice suburban town. I mean really. It is not a high crime area. It's by no means rich, but it's not super poor, either. The houses are nice. The businesses are nice. The people are nice. There's a farmer's market there, and a historic train station, and a few pretty little parks. It's quaint.

I am not noting this because I think it would be okay for this sort of police violence to happen in a town that was not as nice as Ferguson. I DON'T THINK THIS SORT OF POLICE ACTION IS JUSTIFIED ANYWHERE. But the Ferguson police are trying to convince people across the nation that THEIR OWN DAMN TOWN is some sort of war zone that they must armor up to protect themselves against. IT IS NOT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It could be anyone's backyard.
posted by BlueJae at 6:45 PM on August 12, 2014 [62 favorites]

Important Political Fact: St. Louis County has nothing to do with The City of St. Louis.

Just a clarification. Is there a county police force because this is a MO thing, or a metro-government thing, and how did law enforcement duties get split from the sheriff, or has it always been that way? I guess I'm asking if there's a history here that is linked to white flight in some way.

My expectation regarding the airspace closure (is it still active? I've seen conflicting reports) is that it may have something to do with preventing news photography but more likely was requested so that no chopper footage of tactical operations would be out there going live as they tried to bear down on something (cf. reports of "kettling" last night).

On the whole I think going full outrage on the cops for e.g. "effective martial law" on the day after there was looting and arson is a little bit of a futile strategy, but on the other hand the decision to go full military (even if e.g. in that NYT photo those are pellet/teargas/etc. guns as it's been explained elsewhere) and especially ridic stuff like the teargas at people in their own private yard is sort of the opposite of a helpful approach here. Things need to be ratcheted down somehow and I'm wondering if there is any discussion of how to do that or who might be a good interlocutor/mediator.
posted by dhartung at 6:46 PM on August 12, 2014

guys, can drop the derail about Gawker Media?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:50 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

(I was thinking of the picture/comparison bluejae posted; thanks bluejae).

At every point, the police have had the chance to let things cool, to let people express their grief peacefully and disperse. To at least say "we are looking into this and feel for Mr. Brown's parents." At every point, they have chosen to act as though this community is nothing but a pack of barely-restrained animals that is snarling for their throats. And when you refuse to treat people as people, as worthy of some basic trust, as wanting peace and security in the same way as you do, as loving their children, you reveal much more about yourself than you do about them.
posted by emjaybee at 6:51 PM on August 12, 2014 [20 favorites]

Btw -- where are the Oathkeepers protesting clear violations of human rights by the police?

On their website, they're too busy talking about looting and rioting in Ferguson, while complaining about police militarization because... police "rushed in and held two white kids on the ground at gun-point for shooting potatoes into a lake setting hair spray as the propellant."

Emphasis mine.
posted by inigo2 at 6:56 PM on August 12, 2014 [6 favorites]

The dignity of Michael's parents asking for calm and decrying violence is breathtaking.
If it was my child I'd be screaming "burn it all to the ground".
posted by fullerine at 6:56 PM on August 12, 2014 [13 favorites]

Remember guys, make sure we try to empathize with the vicious scumbag paramilitary racists with guns and tanks, because there are two sides of every story.

This is more evidence that there is no such thing any longer as a "good cop". Putting your hands in your pockets and looking at the ceiling while someone in the same room does something horrible is only different from actually doing the deed by degree of involvement.
posted by maxwelton at 6:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [10 favorites]

And in answer to the New Yorker headline.
posted by fullerine at 6:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Things need to be ratcheted down somehow and I'm wondering if there is any discussion of how to do that or who might be a good interlocutor/mediator.

Are you saying there needs to be mediation between... Cops and the community they police? Do you recognize that you are talking as if this is rival gangs or something?
posted by PMdixon at 6:59 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

dhartung: “Just a clarification. Is there a county police force because this is a MO thing, or a metro-government thing, and how did law enforcement duties get split from the sheriff, or has it always been that way? I guess I'm asking if there's a history here that is linked to white flight in some way.”

I've always thought of this as standard, but maybe only for urban/suburban counties with large populations? For example, the suburban county I live in has both police and sheriff's departments. The police are tasked with investigating crime and patrolling the streets. Sheriff's deputies are officers of the court, so they serve warrants, enforce court orders, and run the jail. Municipalities within the county also have their own police departments. I think having only a sheriff's department is more common in rural areas.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:01 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I feel the same way, fullerine. If I'd had to wait four hours while my child's body lay bloodied and uncovered on the street, just steps from home, before the police who had shot him FOR JAYWALKING even let an EMT through to look at him I feel fairly sure I would be in jail or dead already. But Michael Brown's parents called for peace. And even after the dismissive and brutal response from police to their community's call for justice, they still call for peace.

As far as I'm concerned, Michael Brown's mother and father and stepfather are superhuman.
posted by BlueJae at 7:06 PM on August 12, 2014 [18 favorites]

inigo2:

"On their website, they're too busy talking about looting and rioting in Ferguson, while complaining about police militarization because... police "rushed in and held two white kids on the ground at gun-point for shooting potatoes into a lake setting hair spray as the propellant.""

DoNotLink version of inigo2's original link for those who don't want to give them clicks/eyeballs.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 7:10 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

I mean if the House is going to impeach somebody anyway can't Holder just arrest the entire PD for conspiracy to commit civil rights violations or RICO or violating software EULAs?

And then keep going.
posted by PMdixon at 7:14 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Now, what I have said about Harlem is true of Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and San Francisco—is true of every Northern city with a large Negro population. And the police are simply the hired enemies of this population. They are present to keep the Negro in his place and to protect white business interests, and they have no other function. They are, moreover—even in a country which makes the very grave error of equating ignorance with simplicity—quite stunningly ignorant; and, since they know that they are hated, they are always afraid. One cannot possibly arrive at a more surefire formula for cruelty.

This is why those pious calls to “respect the law,” always to be heard from prominent citizens each time the ghetto explodes, are so obscene. The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer. To respect the law, in the context in which the American Negro finds himself, is simply to surrender his self-respect. - James Baldwin, 1966
posted by gorbweaver at 7:35 PM on August 12, 2014 [59 favorites]

The City of St. Louis and the County have long been separate on nearly every level, long before such a thing as "white flight." It makes getting my crime data, parcel data, and so on very interesting.

Essentially, the City of St. Louis is a bunch of little townships which eventually fused from an original eighty-odd "neighborhoods," which differs from the county, lacking true townships in the beginning.

The police for the City of St. Louis have nine districts, which effectively serve as beats, that mostly fall long those old neighborhood lines. Their crime data is rather uniform, as compared to what you get (if you can get it) from the various separate police departments in the County. Some refuse to play ball with anyone.
posted by adipocere at 7:37 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

The St. Louis city/county split happened in 1876, and was mostly about people in the city not wanting to pay to extend services to what was then considered a far-flung expanse of mostly farmland. So, nothing to do with "white flight" in the mid-20th century sense.

There's periodic talk of a reunification, and there currently are a couple of groups studying and/or advocating that it take place, but no firm proposals so far. That hasn't stopped the municipal governments in a couple of the more remote, all-white suburbs from passing resolutions opposing any reunification; the claimed reasons for doing so basically boil down to barely veiled excuses for racism.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 7:38 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Do you recognize that you are talking as if this is rival gangs or something?

I am talking as if the cops think that way, yes. They are disengaged from the community they police to an apparently impressive, and tragic, degree.

I think having only a sheriff's department is more common in rural areas.

There are historical factors here and it definitely varies by state. I was asking about the specifics, though, of St. Louis County, for a reason.
posted by dhartung at 7:38 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

adipocere, I call jinx on the explanation of the city/county divide. Somebody owes somebody a coke.

One thing, though - as of January of this year, the city of St. Louis is divided into six policing districts, down from the original nine.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 7:41 PM on August 12, 2014

I am talking as if the cops think that way, yes. They are disengaged from the community they police to an apparently impressive, and tragic, degree.

Okay but they are agents of the state. We don't have to mediate. We can just take their guns away. They don't have a claim to being wronged that we need to indulge.

(Smash the submerged state!)
posted by PMdixon at 7:45 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

These military donations to all these police departments are nothing but Chekhov's tanks to me. Ferguson will not be the only situation like this, count on it.

My own country, the one where half my family has served in its military since WWI, and possibly before, paid taxes, worked, cleaned, labored for free - and here are fuckers in it who not only see my people as non-citizens, but criminals, undesirables; these racists want us back either back in chains or dead. Why don't I just say it, right? They want us dead. And precisely because we are only 13% of the population, historically despised and marginalized, we are easy to target. It is easy for people so inclined to try to make us scapegoats.

How dare such people call us savages? Because they're certainly not afraid to murder kids in cold blood, are they? Calling names, saying shit they'd NEVER say about a white president about Obama, calling us whiners or going on about us using some fucking race card, dammit, if everything was OK, there'd be no issue. But I get the feeling some of these folks are projecting that they want favoritism, they want special privileges, and then have the fucking nerve to say it's us. No, they're not afraid, they're creating situations to kill people because they want to. Civilians and police, going out of their way to kill us and escaping the justice they deserve. But if these racists think that if we were ever gone that the tanks wouldn't be turned on them, they're mistaken, and they're fools. Their lives would not magically become a 1950s TV show.

I've felt lately that I'll have to come to terms with accepting that I may not die an ancient lady at home in bed surrounded by loved ones, but end up killed because there will be these racists out here, riled up by the right wing trying to destroy us, and I'll end up fighting. If I have to fight, if I have to go down fighting, I will. I'd be terrified, but you can't do nothing. And the way things look now, laws aren't working. Marches, protests, nothing is working, and I'm scared.

Tanks! Small towns getting tanks and armored vehicles and machine guns. They mean to kill with those things, OK? A breakdown of the country and more violence against us has been scaring me at least since 2008, but I thought that maybe I was just paranoid. Now I'm not so sure.
posted by droplet at 7:46 PM on August 12, 2014 [111 favorites]

Oh, hi guys. Heh. I've been riding this one out glued to Twitter and Facebook for the past four days. I'd have come by sooner if I'd known you started a thread! BlueJae has the story from our perspective covered, it sounds like. I can't fave that hard enough. I grew up in Florissant and have friends and former lovers in Ferguson. I still have family, friends, and property in Florissant, 10 minutes straight north off West Florissant Road and New Halls Ferry Road, and I consider Ferguson part of my hometown—it's half of my school district, after all, and I spent a lot of time there growing up. I've mourned for Mike Brown since I first heard the news, and it turns out that heartbreakingly, my mom had met him and his mom before at events in Ferguson. I got that first email alert from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (don't even get me started on that initial "mob" headline) as I was pulling out of my dad's driveway up there.

I've been following this here in St. Louis and except for some of the people the social media (facebook mostly) is just horrible.

I will actually say, lizarrd, maybe I just have good friends (you know my friends, so draw your own conclusions!), but I've been pleased by the thoughtfulness and sensitivity of my friends who grew up with me in North County. I don't know where those Ferguson cops got their notions of right and wrong, but my friends and I WERE NOT RAISED LIKE THAT. Yeah, there were some crackers, but my friends and I tell people this all the time: We grew up in a North County that was like fifty-fifty black and white, and we were COOL. We were PROUD that everyone was so cool with each other. People didn't get stupid like those cops. My friends are on Facebook now worried about their families, obviously, given the extent of the looting Sunday, but also just aghast at the police brutality and ignorance being shown to our friends and neighbors of all colors, because that is NOT WHO WE ARE.

This has been a cascading FAIL of law enforcement from the very beginning, with mistakes and apparent misconduct being compounded by bad judgment every step of the way.

The wonderful exception to this was the Clayton officer Antonio French filmed earlier patiently and calmly explaining the rules of engagement for protests there to the protest leaders there. That was wonderful, because the conduct of the Ferguson officers and so many St. Louis County officers has been a cockup from every angle.

I mourn for Mike Brown and my hometown. As if it wasn't bad enough that we've all had to worry about radioactive contamination in Ferguson and Florissant, now the Ferguson cops come along and take away people's lives and civil liberties. It has been a really hard time for so many up there for so long, and the cops are just making it worse. It's shameful.
posted by limeonaire at 7:46 PM on August 12, 2014 [38 favorites]

There were initial reports that phones had been seized from witnesses

Does anyone have a link to any of those initial reports that phones had been seized from witnesses?
posted by mediareport at 7:47 PM on August 12, 2014

Alright, the FAA's stated reason for the shutdown is : To provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities.

Zero mention of civilian aircraft. And law enforcement aircraft usually have no trouble dealing with news helicopters. It's only the impact of aircraft might've on law enforcement on the ground that bothers them. So it's purely about keeping images out of the media.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:57 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

jeffburdges, the Ferguson cops are claiming someone shot at a police helicopter, so the FAA's rationale makes sense. Whether that actually happened is another story, but certainly with reports of shots being fired at patrol cars, one can imagine there would be shots fired at police choppers as well.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:14 PM on August 12, 2014

Sad that there's nothing to burn but a 7/11.
posted by PHINC at 8:14 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Granted, on second thought, I don't want to sugarcoat things: By the time my brother was in high school, maybe around a decade or so ago, things were starting to get a bit more tense. We were raised to have the same respect for all people, but his high-school experience was not the same as mine. Unrest has definitely been growing, probably for the reasons many have described in the excellent links that have been going around on Twitter. I remember the time my brother was out doing the kind of thing he does, picking up bottles and cans from around our neighborhood to recycle, and a group of dudes beat him up. Maybe that's just because he's an iconoclastic geek—can't ever rule that out!—but it felt like things were changing. That said, after reading so many good links this week, I think I understand a bit better why that may have been. The profiling, the lack of representation in government, the growing feeling that the government doesn't give a shit about North County residents' health or well-being... The powers that be were not happy that the demographics were changing, either, and so they began putting the screws to people of color, white flight picked up again, and distrust started to grow. It sucks—the authorities (and everyone who picked up and moved to St. Charles County, I kind of feel like) are the ones who helped wreck the good thing we had going.

Anyway, for current events, I also wanted to note, for the most up-to-date info, the #Ferguson hashtag on Twitter has been great. The Redditors following the police scanners have also been posting excellent info.
posted by limeonaire at 8:15 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

limeonaire, I didn't see the specific Tweet of French's that you mention (with the Clayton officer acting like a reasonable human being) but I did see some other things suggesting that the tension level had been reduced somewhat for the morning's events there. Presumably the officer's actions and demeanor helped facilitate that, and if so, good on him/her.

Also just wanted to third your and BlueJae's characterization of Ferguson as being not the sort of place you'd expect war zone tactics to need to be deployed. Yes, it's mostly a working class area, and it took some hits from late 20th century de-industrialization and the recession of the late 2000s, but it's never had the reputation of, say, Kinloch or Wellston, which were devastated by white flight & factory closings, and wound up looking like wastelands on many blocks. Ferguson's old downtown actually had been on the rebound of late, with some new businesses moving in, concerts & festivals scheduled, etc.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 8:22 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner, if you're curious about the Clayton officer (or basically anything else important that's happened in the past four days!), definitely scroll back through Antonio French's Twitter feed to his Vines from the peaceful protest in Clayton earlier. I was definitely pleased to see that officer being so damn professional after the unprofessional "policing" we've witnessed this week.
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on August 12, 2014

"#FergusonPolice confiscated security tape, bullied teen into signing consent form to take her phone bcause she recorded shooting"

Girl in ferguson gives full statement on cop after recording the mike brown murder. Police have confiscated her phone for investigation reasons.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:37 PM on August 12, 2014 [20 favorites]

limeonaire, eventually I'll try to scroll back through French's feed and find that clip. However, I'm somewhat dubious of that Redditors feed, because it seems pretty indiscriminate - along with stuff from police scanners, they've posted some totally unfounded rumors gleaned from social media.

The most ridiculous one last night was a third-hand assertion that the "rioters" were going to take Metrolink (the local light rail system) all the way down to the Shrewsbury station - a 20 minute ride, at least, from Ferguson that passes by several more affluent areas and shopping districts along the way - and walk from there to the Hampton Village shopping center, more than a mile away, to continue looting.

In other words, it was basically a timely re-skinning of a common racist trope - "black people will use public transportation to come and rob me" - familiar to anyone who listened to the arguments against expanding Metrolink to other parts of the county a few years back. While one of the Redditors maintaining the thread eventually pointed out the implausibility of this, it took a while, so I've been viewing any breaking-news items on that Reddit link with some skepticism.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 8:39 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

The Reddit feed is just useful in a general sense, Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner—especially for those of us around here who are trying to keep track of where things might head next in North County specifically. People are transcribing things straight from police scanners (which themselves are full of potential misinformation, being subject to the same biases the police themselves are, but it's still a primary source) and now also social media. A lot of the misinformation you mention is straight from the police scanners. It's all to be taken with a grain of salt, but along with the #Ferguson hashtag, it's a good way to have a sort of proprioception about what's going on at any given moment.
posted by limeonaire at 8:49 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Girl in ferguson gives full statement on cop after recording the mike brown murder. Police have confiscated her phone for investigation reasons.

Thanks; the unnamed girl talks about the police taking down security cameras and confiscating her phone at 5:20 in the video.

I wonder if she's the 2nd witness the NAACP is now talking about. I hope there are more who managed to keep their phones.
posted by mediareport at 8:50 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

Girl in ferguson gives full statement on cop after recording the mike brown murder. Police have confiscated her phone for investigation reasons.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:37 PM

Given what happened to Michael Brown, the officer who bullied the teenager into giving up her phone should be removed from the police force and prosecuted for subjecting a citizen to psychologial duress (or whatever charge will stick) to redress the harm perpetrated against the teenager herself and the community her courageous filming would have protected.
posted by mistersquid at 8:53 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

Anyone with good tips on immediately storing a phone's video online? I found this :
Three Sites to Stream Live Video From Your Cell Phone To The Net
posted by jeffburdges at 8:54 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

Sunday night... I've heard reports of 100- 300 police officers showing up that night to confront MAYBE a couple of hundred unarmed, peaceful protesters

Just as yet another example of how distorting and awful the media coverage has been from the very beginning, here's a screenshot of something I took on Sunday morning, before this news had yet to really break nationally (see the west coast time: 9:02 am). Up to 1000 confront police after teen's death
posted by naju at 8:56 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

I can't help but feel like we should all be rioting in the streets. What am I even doing stewing here in an office.

This. This is your country. And it's been fully taken over by militarized cops and corporations who have bought control of you entire political system.

You want to see actual change? Like, do you really want to see change? Then stop relying on a disenfranchised community in suburban St. Louis who are only trying to live in peace to stand up and say this is wrong.

Maybe see what happens when some actual white people stand up and say THIS IS WRONG.

But if all you can be bothered to do is come on this website, throw in a "holy shit", shake your head, and go on about your privileged life, then I honestly have no time for you.

If you really care about what's happening, take action.
posted by dry white toast at 9:00 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

America Is Not For Black People
posted by dry white toast at 9:02 PM on August 12, 2014 [5 favorites]

I just spent the last two or three days very busy/very close to this situation. I've missed the discussion up to now, but will try to catch up and see if I can add anything.
posted by DaddyNewt at 9:02 PM on August 12, 2014 [4 favorites]

This related video posted by the same guy who posted the video of the girl whose phone was confiscated claims to show another eyewitness and is worth viewing. It's hard to understand all of it because the guy's pretty excited, but at 1:30 he describes the event again and seems to be claiming the cop had already passed Brown and then "he reversed and tried to hit him...that's when everything fucking happened."
posted by mediareport at 9:05 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Maybe see what happens when some actual white people stand up and say THIS IS WRONG.

But if all you can be bothered to do is come on this website, throw in a "holy shit", shake your head, and go on about your privileged life, then I honestly have no time for you.

Since this is addressed to me - I'm not actual white people, but I agree. I'm trying to figure out how to make a difference here. I think a bunch of us are. I'm angry and shaking about this stuff, help me figure out how to make an impact.

(Oh, on second read I think you were agreeing with me, not castigating me. Sorry)
posted by naju at 9:06 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

mistersquid, not defending the cops here as things are reaching clusterfuck proportions, but it is actually normal for police now to seize video evidence as they would any other evidence. I myself have been able to e-mail video to police in two cases in the last year -- I'm very glad they weren't important enough to need chain of evidence as they likely would in a homicide investigation.

While there is ample reason to be suspicious of the outcome here exonerating the officer, we at least should be cognizant that the investigation is being done by a different agency, albeit one that is directly involved in the lousy policing of the protests. I also tend to highly doubt there will be anything that is actually live video of the shooting itself, rather, this is likely footage of the aftermath.

Anyone with good tips on immediately storing a phone's video online?

Dropbox works fine for my Android phone and the short MMS video segments it records. Stops recording, uploads automatically (well, when on wi-fi, but that's a user setting).
posted by dhartung at 9:06 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Nothing makes white people more uncomfortable than black anger. But nothing is more threatening to black people on a systemic level than white anger. It won’t show up in mass killings. It will show up in overpolicing, mass incarceration, the gutting of the social safety net, and the occasional dead black kid. Of late, though, these killings have been far more than occasional. We should sit up and pay attention to where this trail of black bodies leads us. They are a compass pointing us to a raging fire just beneath the surface of our national consciousness. We feel it. We hear it. Our nostrils flare with the smell of it.

James Baldwin called it “the fire next time.” A fire shut up in our bones. A sentient knowledge, a kind of black epistemology, honed for just such a time as this. And with this knowledge, a clarity that says if “we live by the sword, we will die by it.”

posted by AceRock at 9:09 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

Protesters use hands-up gesture defiantly after Michael Brown shooting
posted by Artw at 9:10 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Another good twitter for this is @JustinGlawe. And his profile photo is white in case you need a source to influence friends you suspect of being racist about this.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:10 PM on August 12, 2014

I made this argument over here very recently. I like to think it's more than specious, because those sorts of vehicles, body armor, weapons, and tactics are just inherently antagonistic. It's like putting boxing gloves on drunk people and expecting them not to act like everythings a punching bag or a boxing match.

I've done a bit of acting, and yes this.

Even though it was 20 years ago I remember distinctly the first time I put on a tight-ass regency shirt and fitted coat and ruff and holy hell I was like instant Mr Darcy.

I can't imagine that full battle rattle makes you feel like anything other than some kind of superhero psychopath.
posted by Sebmojo at 9:13 PM on August 12, 2014 [8 favorites]

I will say the thing that's frustrating about listening to the police scanners and/or following them via the Reddit feed is that I don't really have a good baseline for daily crime rates in North County. From statistics I looked at a couple months ago, I believe it generally had the highest crime rate of the six portions of the county that St. Louis County police patrol (though a couple others weren't far off), but what I don't know is what a normal day sounds like on the scanners. I mean, a normal day usually doesn't have officers hauling ass in riot gear, but beyond that, when I hear about burglaries or small fires in various places this week, I have no good way to know how that varies from what might be normal. It would be good if someone in the media would cover that angle.

That also reminds me of my million-dollar Twitter-account idea from this morning, free to the lazyweb: Someone (or a group) should do this all the time, posting updates from the scanners like they do in Sheboygan.
posted by limeonaire at 9:15 PM on August 12, 2014

Also, in addition to the obvious issues of racism, historically there's also been a real problem with the basic competence of the cops in some of these smaller municipalities.

So they're just like the cops and/or police forces in the larger municipalities.

Which one should we be terrified and puzzled by again?

Both, obviously. Both are puzzling. The questions are not in competition with each other, nor does being puzzled by both means you favour one over the other. Unfortunately, on Metafilter, this sort of bullshit competitiveness of viewpoints is on the rise and makes people just asking a question that is not officially the right one very hesitant to bother participating at all.

One is completely terrible and awful, the other rather unfortunate. I believe most of us have the capacity to consider more than one thing at a time. It appears in this case, as it appears to be the case in many similar instances, that the assholes looting and rioting were simply assholes looting and rioting. No harm in asking the question about them though. I don't think asking such a question means that we can't ask other questions and feel that the police reaction to protests, both for these particular protests, and for protests in general, is extreme to say the least, just like their reaction to supposed "suspects" they gun down.

Unfortunately, police such as these haven't the faintest sense of community and indeed, lacking a sense of community and proudly pounding your chest about it is something very popular in the States right now. Whereas community involvement is evil socialism or something. The police are often legalized gangsters and the good cops among them are moved to the pawn shop unit...

Important Historical Anecdote: When I was living there, Ferguson Cops were dicks who basically existed solely to give tickets to people driving on I-70 and I-270, the vast majority of whom were black, of course, but they weren't above nailing anybody in a cheap or decent car. A Mercedes or BMW meant there was too much of chance you were either a lawyer or could afford one to raise shit, so they didn't get ticketed.

In Toronto, for the longest time, when I got stopped for speeding, when driving alone, with glasses on, and being a ginger and therefore white, I was usually let off. The day my Filipina girlfriend and 2 black friends were in the car, I was not let off. I have to say that since I've been driving one of the cheapest Toyotas you can get, cops just seem to ignore me, but they seldom let anyone off for speeding anymore.

Given what happened to Michael Brown, the officer who bullied the teenager into giving up her phone should be removed from the police force and prosecuted for subjecting a citizen to psychologial duress (or whatever charge will stick) to redress the harm perpetrated against the teenager herself and the community her courageous filming would have protected.

That would be wonderful. It's part of police culture, it seems, to intimidate and bully persons. Consequences for such actions are the only way to change the culture, or getting people take the principles of their position seriously. Rare that.

Maybe see what happens when some actual white people stand up and say THIS IS WRONG.

There have been protests against this sort of things and people of many races, including "white people" for years. Result. It's worse then ever. Branding against sensible objection has become incredibly effective. People of all races have known for years that things continue to be bad and are getting worse in so many ways and nothing they've done has worked. It's very sad. Hopefully something will be effective but I fear it will take absolute rock bottom everywhere, for things to change. The people in power and influence seem to be doing their best to make this happen sooner rather than later, but they've been friends with dictatorial states for some years and may eventually just use that model on those of us who disagree with them. Lack of rights has been a "thing" for years with the black community and the poor (of any race). Right now, it appears that plans are in motion to make most everyone poor so even more people can be buggered.
posted by juiceCake at 9:17 PM on August 12, 2014

At least some of what is wrong here is the racial makeup of the police force, not unlike Detroit almost 50 years ago:
"In 1967, 93% of the force was still White, although 30% of the city residents were African American."
posted by PHINC at 9:20 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Btw -- where are the Oathkeepers protesting clear violations of human rights by the police?

They're on duty for the Freguson Police Department
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

As an aside, there is a protest (via) on Sunday over the LAPD's murder of another unarmed black man named #EzellFord last Monday night.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

"I'm angry and shaking about this stuff, help me figure out how to make an impact."

The NAACP currently has "Justice" campaign running: "The goal of the NAACP Criminal Justice Department is to advocate for and advance a better public safety system that reduces the reliance on prisons as means of solving social problems, advances effective law enforcement and removes barriers to voting and employment for formerly incarcerated people. " There are four goals: "1)Advancing Sentencing Reform and The Right to Vote for Formerly Incarcerated People; 2) Advancing Effective Law Enforcement Practices; 3) Elevating and supporting the voices of crime survivors; 4) Removing Employment Barriers for formerly incarcerated people."

They've been having a lot of success recently with their "Ban the Box" campaign that encourages state governments and large corporations to get rid of the checkbox asking if a job applicant has a prior criminal conviction. They've also done a lot of significant work to publicize this sort of police misconduct. It may or may not be your bag, but your local NAACP chapter may be running various initiatives in partnership with the national project, and that might be a way to make an impact. They've also been pushing social media pretty hard as a way to get the message out, so even if you don't have a very local chapter, your facebook and twitter may be more helpful than you realize. (Non-African-Americans are enthusiastically welcomed, there are no racial criteria for membership or involvement in the NAACP, though I know sometimes people are reluctant if they're not black because they're not sure. It's cool! It's fine!)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [9 favorites]

I also just wanted to say, though, I'm glad you guys are all here and caring, paying close attention to what's going on in my hometown. We need all the eyes on this that we can get, for as long as it takes. MetaFilter always does a great job with threads like this, but it's especially gratifying to see it when it's about where I'm from. Thanks for being here.
posted by limeonaire at 9:27 PM on August 12, 2014 [21 favorites]

As an aside, there is a protest (via) on Sunday over the LAPD's murder of another unarmed black man named #EzellFord last Monday night.

Police Fatally Shoot Man in South L.A.; Family Members Say He Was Lying Down When Shot
posted by supermassive at 9:30 PM on August 12, 2014 [7 favorites]

. for Ezell Ford. This continuing police brutality is terrible.

Aside: Right now, it's so comforting that I can do that here, and you guys will know what I mean—I've been wanting to post the dot on so many Facebook and Twitter posts this week.
posted by limeonaire at 9:32 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

The NAACP currently has "Justice" campaign running:

Thank the gods there's something I can DO (the site is broken right now - did we crash it? - but I'll keep it for the future). I've felt so sick and rageful and empty and impotent over all of this; I am so tired of our kids and men getting shot. It's just not right.

My heart and care is with the families of Brown and Ford, and with the young men hassled for living in their own neighborhoods with sometimes fatal ends.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:48 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Someone (or a group) should do this all the time, posting updates from the scanners like they do in Sheboygan.

We have this in Rock County (and Winnebago as well). That said, there are two issues. One is that the police really didn't like it when he posted active police calls to social media, even though he is just transcribing what goes over the public safety channel. Unfortunately the operator is a sort of cop/EMT wannabe who has domestic violence charges against him, so there's some leverage. The other is that you only have limited information on the scanner anyway, as a lot of dispatch is done using computers, creating a sort of iceberg effect. I guarantee you that the prevalence of scanners in recent years led to them moving lots of radio traffic to private channels or data channels, and that public scrutiny would have a similar effect for any community. Even when the cops aren't corrupt/racist/thin-blue-liney, they don't like a mess of public looky-loos at any random crime scene, and they end up devoting resources to crowd control -- as happened in Ferguson. This would actually be awful for both activists and reporters and would return full control of the information to the police and insiders in a jiffy.

At least some of what is wrong here is the racial makeup of the police force

Which, it should be noted, is not necessarily merely a matter of the police saying "OK, minorities please apply." My city's department has had that sign up pretty much for 20 years running and we have, I believe, one half-Latina officer. (We still have a very small percentage of black residents and by the numbers about two black cops would equalize it, but apparently they all want to work in more prestigious, more urban, or frankly, more heavily African-American communities.) It's a similar issue to that with colleges who want black professors -- they are heavily in demand and can pick and choose their opportunities.

There's a secondary, somewhat foundational issue, of course, which is the high rate of young black men who rack up rap sheets of minor offenses that make them ineligible for public employment generally, not to mention as police, even if they straighten out their lives as adults. That's partly a drug war issue, partly a stop-and-frisk culture issue, and also partly related to other issues such as fatherless households. And also partly a self-selection issue in that e.g. very few of the young men righteously shouting FTP these nights are ever going to be interested in crossing over and becoming cops themselves. It's pretty complex and seems to be a self-sustaining cycle in many ways. So ultimately the flip side of this is police forces across the US that are made up of almost or wholly white officers, themselves often the product of a self-selection process that is well known to attract power-trippers and others with crossed circuits.
posted by dhartung at 9:57 PM on August 12, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also, in addition to the obvious issues of racism, historically there's also been a real problem with the basic competence of the cops in some of these smaller municipalities.

So they're just like the cops and/or police forces in the larger municipalities.

Cute attempt at snark, but no. There is an actual difference. Larger, better-funded police forces actually do tend have better trained/educated, more competent officers than these little towns with their rinky-dink shops employing a couple dozen cops.

There are exceptions both ways, sure, and cops from bigger departments still can be racists, corrupt, etc. But many of them at least can carry out the routine tasks they're supposedly trained to do, like stopping someone on the street and questioning them while maintaining control of the situation.

In this case, the cop in Ferguson who shot Mike Brown failed completely at this most basic level, and then escalated immediately to the use of deadly force. With a more competent cop, it's possible this interaction could have ended instead with Brown pissed off at being hassled for no reason, but still alive. That doesn't solve or even address any of the larger issues, but to me it seems like a preferable alternative, and an actual difference.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 10:08 PM on August 12, 2014 [2 favorites]

It is definitely not rational, but as someone who was at the peaceful Sunday protest before the looting began, I have to say the barking police dogs freaked me out. I have been to anti-war protests, gay rights protests, pro-choice protests, and I have never had to walk past a barking police dog being held back by the officer before. The images of Selma newsreels were flashing in my head. (It didn't help that we were in front of the Fire Station, so the hoses could have appeared at any minute.) I can only image what the Black folks were feeling about it.
posted by hworth at 10:12 PM on August 12, 2014 [35 favorites]

Yes...as I tried to explain to my coworkers yet again today, "boy and his dog" fluff stories about K-9 units are really problematic unless you address the ways in which the use of these dogs is polarizing and really overkill for so many situations, not to mention dangerous for civilians. Use of the dogs has resulted in false positives in drug searches and excessive-force complaints that just get brushed off by superior officers. There are real civil-liberties concerns regarding their use; it's not just "activists" who think so.
posted by limeonaire at 10:24 PM on August 12, 2014 [14 favorites]

There has been a drive-by shooting in the vicinity of the W. Florissant Ave. protests. The general area of the Quik Trip gas station that was torched the other night seems to have gone from somewhat placid to scary as hell in a hurry.

Before that, this incredible thing took place, which moved me to make my first Storify.
posted by dhartung at 10:50 PM on August 12, 2014 [22 favorites]

Looks like a woman was just shot in a drive-by. Listening to the St. Louis scanner. @ksdknews
posted by SarahElizaP at 10:53 PM on August 12, 2014

That's amazing, dhartung. I also saw protest photos earlier of an 88-year-old woman with an oxygen tank and a 103-year-old man in a wheelchair, the latter of whom had marched with Martin Luther King Jr.

Re: the drive-by, yeah, I'm just hoping against hope for her.
posted by limeonaire at 10:58 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

Here is an eyewitness account and some video of the first night's protests and subsequent events.
posted by flug at 11:04 PM on August 12, 2014 [1 favorite]

dhartung, I like the cut of that guy's jib. Would like to know more details and/or see a pic, perhaps something will emerge at some point.

The drive-by sounds bad, and has been confirmed by the County cops. No indication as to how, or even if, it may be connected to the demonstrations. Also, there's a fair amount of chaff on that Reddit feed and on Twitter, apparently from someone calling in false reports of people with guns and smash-and-grabs in south St. Louis city, miles away from Ferguson. Looks like it could be another long night ahead, just hope no one else gets hurt.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 11:12 PM on August 12, 2014

I guess this'll be my late night listening tonight

http://youarelistening.to/stlouis
posted by mannequito at 12:23 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've been thinking about that article posted no long ago how the rich really need to do something about income inequity, least they become targets of the revolution. And in it, the author comments how the French Revolution wasn't some slow build up that was easy to spot; rather protests sprang up around the country quickly and spontaneously in response to localized events. (paraphrasing, of course.)

Then I wonder about the protest and rioting here. It blew up overnight. For good reason, but it was rapid. As me last Friday if I expected in a few days police in military gear would be inciting riots and protests, and I would have never guessed.

The issue here isn't as simple as income inequality, but at its core, it sort of is. A marginalized race are the victim of both poverty and police state brutality, funded to protect the rich ruling classes, primarily white.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 2:02 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.

The initial urge of a disenfranchised mob is to take back from the powerful, to get street justice. But the rich and powerful are remote. The local kulaks act as stand-ins.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:37 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Unfortunately, Ta-Nehisi Coates has apparently left on a French jaunt, and has yet to comment on this situation. I'm looking forward to reading some of the BAR writer's take on it, though.

I was a kid when the Watts Rebellion went down. That was some kind of turning point; this is probably another. Also, this Metafilter thread has some of the best content I've found regarding this Ferguson, MO confrontation. Thank you for that.
posted by metagnathous at 3:44 AM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

As far as police confiscation of video goes, I just don't have enough trust in the police to assume that when they confiscate a video of a cop shooting someone it is for the purpose of gathering evidence against that cop instead of for the purpose of destroying that evidence.

Remember that the **ONLY** reason we have any video of the shooting of Oscar Grant is because someone refused to let their phone be taken. All other video mysteriously vanished. The security cameras were "malfunctioning" and all the rest got lost. Absent the person who, bravely and at not inconsiderable personal risk, refused to let her video vanish as well the police would have been able to hide all evidence of the real event and go with their original (lying) claim that Grant was trying to get a gun and that Mehserle killed him in self defense. Absent that brave person keeping the police from destroying her evidence Mehserle would have gotten a medal and a commendation and would be out there looking for another victim to kill.

There is simply no way that any evidence of police wrongdoing, once it enters police hands, will ever do anything but vanish. In this case only community rage is getting anything done at all, the evidence is all gone and we'll never, ever, see it.

I don't blame the woman for giving the cops her phone, they'd just killed someone and I have no doubt that she felt in danger of her life if she didn't cooperate.

But damn do we need a single button press instant live streaming video service for cases like this. We're almost all carrying video cameras around these days, the only problem is keeping the evidence from being destroyed by the police.
posted by sotonohito at 5:04 AM on August 13, 2014 [42 favorites]

In addition to the drive-by last night:

Police shoot suspect in north STL Co.

I don't know how people can look at what's been going on in Ferguson this week and still claim that the answer is MOAR GUNZ.

Just 8 days ago, Missouri voted to strike out concealed carry restrictions from the Missouri Constitution and replace it with a blurb about gun rights being "inalienable."
posted by Foosnark at 5:17 AM on August 13, 2014

I talked to a pilot friend about this, and he didn't seem too surprised about the airspace restrictions in the area -- it's a fairly standard procedure for any incident that requires heavy support from aerial law-enforcement or emergency services.

He also said that he'd be surprised if the FAA would deny a news crew's request for a waiver to enter the area. They'd need to provide very specific rationale for denying such a request, given the context of the situation.
posted by schmod at 6:03 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

I read this article on the Post-Dispatch yesterday and I almost vomited.

Key quote: At Metro Shooting Supplies in Bridgeton sales are “through the roof,” said John Stephenson, a general manager.
He said the sales spike began on Sunday, the day after Michael Brown was shot in Ferguson.
“Sales have been absolutely amazing for three days,” he added.

I despair of my hometown and my country.
posted by lineofsight at 6:03 AM on August 13, 2014

Is there a central organizing point for the "cameras on cops" movement? So far all I've been able to find are the ACLU's thoughts on how to protect civil liberties should cameras be put in place. I also looked at the NAACP's "Justice" page, but that seems like a much broader campaign.
posted by sallybrown at 6:28 AM on August 13, 2014

Nothing on the internet ever makes me cry, but I didn’t realize how exhausted I was. I think all of Black America is exhausted, but also wound tight and waiting for a release that will never come. This country is not for us and I am so tired and weeping. Since I was a little boy I wanted to grow up and raise a family, and I am too tired to imagine bringing Black children into this country. I am so exhausted and frustrated and enraged and disappointed and out of words to describe what this feels like. There aren’t any. There is no word to describe what it feels like to be at war with your own country for just existing while Black.

I am exhausted.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:44 AM on August 13, 2014 [35 favorites]

In this case, the cop in Ferguson who shot Mike Brown failed completely at this most basic level, and then escalated immediately to the use of deadly force. With a more competent cop, it's possible this interaction could have ended instead with Brown pissed off at being hassled for no reason, but still alive. That doesn't solve or even address any of the larger issues, but to me it seems like a preferable alternative, and an actual difference.

While I have shifted duties, I used to prosecute (administratively) the peace officer licenses of police in Missouri (for the purpose of either having them revoked or placed on probation/suspended, etc). There was nothing at all surprising about the manner in which the Ferguson cop reportedly behaved. St. Louis Metropolitan Police and surrounding departments are absolutely full of bad apples and terrible police officers. Even though I'm a white guy in his 30s, I'm leery of traveling in St. Louis City/County because of the things I've or my coworkers have encountered in our cases dealing with these police, chief among them is a terrible lack of judgment on how to conduct themselves in and out of uniform.
posted by Atreides at 7:08 AM on August 13, 2014 [20 favorites]

I read this article on the Post-Dispatch yesterday and I almost vomited.

I'm about to burn some bridges with former friends who are still insisting that guns make people safe. I was sick of it after Columbine, I was sick of it after Sandy Hook, I was sick of it after every other singled damned incident, and with this shit happening within walking distance I'm just done.

Michael Brown was unarmed and he got shot multiple times for his trouble. The protesters were unarmed and non-violent and apparently they had cops with riot gear and tear gas pointing combat rifles at them before there was any looting. I can't even imagine the police response if if the civilians of Ferguson were all armed. Bombing maybe? I understand the Boeing campus a couple miles away builds JDAMs.

The woman who was shot in a drive-by -- how the hell would giving her a gun have prevented that? She'd have had to preemptively shoot everyone in every passing car just to make sure.

Take the fucking guns away from everyone, cops included.
posted by Foosnark at 7:14 AM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

The gun sales spike may not mean what you think it means. In times of civil disorder, it's natural to want to protect yourself, especially if you're a woman, as one store owner says more women coming in has been driving the spike. Mob violence has a nasty habit of turning unpredictably.
posted by corb at 7:16 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, but these people want to protect themselves from the "violent urban youths" and not the real danger they're facing, the armed racist murderers.
posted by elizardbits at 7:24 AM on August 13, 2014 [27 favorites]

Missouri voted to strike out concealed carry restrictions from the Missouri Constitution and replace it with a blurb about gun rights being "inalienable."

I wonder how this is going to stack up in court. "Unalienable*" is a keyword in law. It means that it *cannot* be restricted, removed or transferred. And yet, Missouri wants to prevent convicted felons and those "judged mentally ill" from carrying.

Except if the right to keep and bare arms is truly unalienable, those exceptions are illegal.

* I'm using the form used in the Missouri Ballot Initiative, not the form the website uses, thus, unalienable rather than inalienable. Means the same thing -- "Cannot be made alien"
posted by eriko at 7:27 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

The gun sales spike may not mean what you think it means. In times of civil disorder, it's natural to want to protect yourself, especially if you're a ~~woman~~

Middle class white dude who believes this is the start of the race war that ends civilization and now is your chance to laugh at your libotard neighbors as they starve and die outside your prepper shack.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:27 AM on August 13, 2014 [20 favorites]

I've been thinking about that article posted no long ago how the rich really need to do something about income inequity, least they become targets of the revolution.

They are. They are building a highly armed force to protect them and giving that force the freedom of action to suppress the poor.
posted by eriko at 7:28 AM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

In times of civil disorder, it's natural to want to protect yourself, especially if you're a woman, as one store owner says more women coming in has been driving the spike.

No, they said more women were shopping, not that it was driving the spike. And if the 2010 Census info is correct, then the area that's getting booming sales is the exact demographic opposite of Ferguson, with a huge (72%) white majority.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:29 AM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

"the area that's getting booming sales is the exact demographic opposite of Ferguson, with a huge (72%) white majority"

I figured that was the subtext of the article - "white folks buying arms to protect themselves from black riots" - that would be obvious to those that live in those areas and are familiar with the demographics, but I was too disheartened to go look it up and see if the numbers supported this line of thinking. Thanks for doing that, even though it made me sad to have it confirmed.
posted by komara at 7:33 AM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

In times of civil disorder, it's natural to want to protect yourself, especially if you're a woman, as one store owner says more women coming in has been driving the spike. Mob violence has a nasty habit of turning unpredictably.

Especially if the mob is armed, right?
posted by empath at 7:36 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

THIS is the kind of Hug Army^TM I'm talking about:
Vietnam vet speaks to crowd in #Ferguson
White vet, 74, on oxygen, drives an hour to tell Mike Brown's mother he loves her.
posted by jillithd at 7:44 AM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

They are. They are building a highly armed force to protect them and giving that force the freedom of action to suppress the poor.

This is really important.

I think it's easy to fall into a sort of Hunger-Games mentality, like "when the revolution happens" it will be really obvious and schematic, and the eeeeevil elites will be cackling away in a very obvious manner.

And I think in the US we're trained to separate race and class, as if "racism" were purely driven by misguided emotions and not by greed and the hunger for power. The cops themselves may be driven by all kinds of gross racist psychic sludge, but keeping black people down is part of keeping working people down. Black people may be at the bottom of the heap, but if the bottom of the heap gets pushed down, everyone else goes down too.

And if everyone gets used to low-intensity war against black folks, it won't take too much to get used to low-intensity war against any other poor group.

I think what we need is to fucking estrange the state of things. We live in a country where it's normal to have citizen militias patrolling the border and hurting or killing people who try to cross. We live in a country where it's normal that Native people run out of food and medicine on the reservations. We live in a country where it's normal to cut off people's water. Hell, we live in a country where it's normal to work black convicts in the fields in chains. And now we live in a country where you just shut a city down and do whatever you like to the citizens. This is our Hunger Games, it's our dystopia, and we have to be smart enough and in the moment enough to see it.

Every other world crisis and disaster - it just builds up until it seems normal. Something I didn't know - during the early stages of the Holocaust, there were actual charities allowed in to some of the ghettos to distribute food and medicine and report back to their funders. (There are photographs in the Yad Vashem archive.) That seems insane to me, but it was normal to everyone at the time, just another everyday crisis. And that's what we have now - an everyday crisis like they had in Guatemala, in Honduras, in Nicaragua during junta rule.
posted by Frowner at 7:45 AM on August 13, 2014 [72 favorites]

And I think in the US we're trained to separate race and class, as if "racism" were purely driven by misguided emotions and not by greed and the hunger for power.

Yes yes yes.

An individual person may be racist because of misguided emotions and incomplete and inaccurate information. A system is racist because racism benefits the system economically and socially, and it will do what is necessary - lie, kill, terrorize - to perpetuate its economic and social power.
posted by rtha at 7:53 AM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

(I don't mean that we all need to "fight the class war" and "be colorblind", to clarify...I mean that racism makes people of color, especially black people, the ones who are the most vulnerable to state and corporate violence, and that working class white people are deeply mistaken if we think we can buy our own safety with the lives and security of people of color.)
posted by Frowner at 7:54 AM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I wonder what it is in people that prompts them to channel their rage at police officers into burning and looting their neighborhood stores run by their equally effected neighbors. It's terrifying and puzzling.

If the police had shown up with anything less than the force required to keep an enraged populace from burning their local policing infrastructure to the ground I imagine we would be seeing an intact shopping street. Or maybe not. Clive Bundy and company are past the point where they see government forces opposing them not as 'good guys who aren't on side with us' but as 'bad guys'. I don't know if the citizens of Ferguson are past the point of 'Where are/who are/are there any good guy cops?'

More than that, if the cops hadn't shown up with the intention to 'contain' the protest I would imagine that there wouldn't be damage anywhere. The cops escalated this.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:56 AM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Which Picture Would They Use?
posted by likeatoaster at 8:01 AM on August 13, 2014 [39 favorites]

Elizardbits - well, to be fair, it would seem that the way that police force is operating, the white middleclass citizens are not actually in much danger from them. Also, in seriousness, I think people of all types tend to have a really strong mental barrier against shooting even abusive cops.
posted by corb at 8:05 AM on August 13, 2014

Helpful Twitter list of outlets covering Ferguson. Looks like they are letting choppers in now?
posted by emjaybee at 8:08 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

well, to be fair, it would seem that the way that police force is operating, the white middleclass citizens are not actually in much danger from them.

They aren't in danger from peaceful, unarmed protests of that police force's killing a peaceful, unarmed young man, either.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:13 AM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

An army of George Zimmermans is not an answer to any problem that people actually have.

(He's still out there, BTW, looking for a second kill.)
posted by Artw at 8:14 AM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Ok - caught up - I'll see what I can add. In many ways I think I'm more articulate visually, but here's how I wound up there.

I'm not a gawker at this kind of event, usually. I was there because of a meeting I had just a couple of weeks ago with a diverse group of folks. Young and old, black and white, rich and poor. The one thing we all agreed on was that there was an ugly problem with our culture that needed to be addressed. Adressed in a way where people talk face to face, honestly and respectfully. It's a problem we all share in the US, no matter how far removed we think we are.

When the tragic events of this weekend began to unfold, we realized this could be a start to the dialogue. So we were there, Sunday and Monday, talking to people, doing interviews. On both days we left mere minutes before things turned violent.

I can tell you that I'm a 56 year old white male and I was not hiding. I stuck out in that crowd like a very pale sore thumb. If someone wanted to hurt me they had ample opportunity while I was gazing through my viewfinder. I think, in many ways, this is not a race problem except in that it's a human race problem. More honesty and respect on all sides is going to be required. With any luck this could be a starting point instead of a talking point.
posted by DaddyNewt at 8:15 AM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I've also been seeing this set of captioned video stills of Brown's mother going around Twitter.

"You took my son away from me. You know how hard it was for me to get him to graduate? You know how many black men graduate? Because you bring them down to this level where they feel like I don't have nothin to live for! The[y] gonna try to take me out anyway!"

(I have not seen the original video, if someone else has and could post that would be great)
posted by emjaybee at 8:16 AM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

That seems insane to me, but it was normal to everyone at the time, just another everyday crisis

A constant, rolling, permanent emergency.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:17 AM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

The thing that worries me in all this is that it just seems to get worse and worse. Things are really broken right now. You would have thought, for instance, that after Oscar Grant was killed, the fact that there was so much evidence would have forced a serious reevaluation of policing.

I mean, I have been to many protests about police brutality and police shootings, and I've known two people who witnessed fatal police shootings. I live in a pretty liberal city. But nothing seems to change, no matter how much media there is. It feels like there's this bizarre open secret, where "everyone" knows that the cops are corrupt, racist and violent, but even though we all know and agree, nothing changes. It's like the very knowledge itself has normalized the situation and made it stable. Sometimes I feel like there's no point in even telling people anymore, because all it does is make them cynical or afraid.

I don't even know what to do anymore, actually, because there really isn't any responsiveness between the government and the citizens, and I see no way at all to stop the militarization of the police. There are so many factors pushing it - bureaucracy, tax policies, cronyism between arms dealers and city/state governments. And I surmise, since they may be fascists but they're not stupid, that if we could hear all the conversations at the right wing thinktanks and in politicians' offices, we'd hear plenty of people who are thinking that the new poverty is going to bring new crime and new riots, and they want to be prepared.

I grew up in a way where I was made to feel very deeply worthless, in every cell of my body. Like my physical self was this grotesque blight on the world and everywhere I went I was unwanted and potentially in danger. I grew up with shell shock - hypervigilance, obsessive anxiety, other stuff. I keep thinking of all these kids, and how they're getting the message that "society" doesn't think they're worth anything, that their very lives aren't worth anything, and that it's so much worse than what I went through, and what I went through was bad enough. It makes me so angry that I don't even know what to do with it, because I feel like every second someone is being destroyed - psychically if not physically - and there's no way to act fast enough, someone is getting thrown away.
posted by Frowner at 8:20 AM on August 13, 2014 [35 favorites]

(I have not seen the original video, if someone else has and could post that would be great)

52 seconds in. I can't even imagine being coherent if that was me.
posted by cashman at 8:22 AM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

It makes the violence seem like it's coming from a different side.

That's the point.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:28 AM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

cashman: “52 seconds in . I can't even imagine being coherent if that was me.”

There was more to that interview, but I'm having trouble finding it.

Also, goddamn does that shot of people being chased off the parking lot of their homes by cops with dogs make me angry. Dogs. One presumes the fire hoses were unavailable.

Honestly, I'm not sure there's anybody who wears a badge in that area who should still have a job at the end of the week.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:38 AM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

Being in St. Louis, we've been obsessively watching the news and twitter and facebook. I had always assumed that most people I know were kind of racist, the sort of reflexive I was raised with terrible values but rejected them kind, but it turns out no. It's disheartening as hell.
posted by khaibit at 8:39 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Just as an outside observer, I'm struggling to find a downside to disbanding the entire local police force and bringing in state police.
posted by empath at 8:46 AM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

I think, in many ways, this is not a race problem except in that it's a human race problem. More honesty and respect on all sides is going to be required.

Oh come the fuck on already
posted by obliterati at 8:46 AM on August 13, 2014 [45 favorites]

The only response I can muster to someone who asserts that this isn't a race problem is laughter. Perhaps someone with more patience than I can explain this basic idea.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:48 AM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

[looks at a town populated mostly by black people but run by white people, where a mostly white police force has just killed a black kid and has neither given a credible explanation nor identified the guy who actually killed him] no race problem here, folks. everyone involved has to talk honestly
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:52 AM on August 13, 2014 [29 favorites]

It's a race problem and a class problem and a power problem and a media portrayal problem and on and on. That intersectionality doesn't mean it's not a race problem, or that focusing on race is a wrong tack to take, because to me race is still primary here. It's not like Henry Louis Gates was insulated from the police by his wealth, his access to power, or his ability to get media attention.

I hope this doesn't sound patronizing, but the creativity of the current high school and college-age generation in using social media for provocative and mind-blowing social justice ends makes me so proud.
posted by sallybrown at 8:53 AM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

Consider the number of black men and teenagers who have been killed because cops claimed that they looked like they might be reaching for or holding a gun. Not because they were doing so in a violent situation, just because gun. Then remember when some morons walked into a Chipotle carrying military-grade automatic rifles and were treated as nuisance kooks to be talked away and not murdered on sight, and guess what color they were.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:55 AM on August 13, 2014 [48 favorites]

Focusing on race is the EXACT thing we should be doing. Why do we refuse to value Black Americans?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:56 AM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

"I don’t care if Mike Brown was going to college soon. This should not matter. We should not have to prove Mike Brown was worthy of living. We should not have to account for the ways in which he is suitably respectable. We should not have to prove that his body did not deserve to be riddled with bullets. His community should not have to silence their anger so they won’t be accused of rioting, so they won’t become targets too."
posted by rtha at 8:57 AM on August 13, 2014 [84 favorites]

there really isn't any responsiveness between the government and the citizens

I live in Oakland, and yeah. There are many issues here.

1. Politicians may start as members of the community, but when they get elected, they have a vested interest in staying in office, and that means playing nice with the institutions in place, including the police union and prosecutors' offices. It's hard to overestimate how incredibly powerful the police union is, although I'm damned if I know exactly why. I do know that attempts to punish/fire cops for bad behavior, in really egregious circumstances, are contested by the union in court and usually the union wins. Which makes it that much harder for the politicians & civilian administrators to manage cops and implement better policies. (OPD cops put tape over their nametags during their "response" to Occupy and the Oscar Grant protests, in violation of city rules; none of them was punished for that, IIRC.)

The current mayor of Oakland, before she was elected mayor, went into the street during protests and put her body between the cops and the protestors; now, she lets OPD call the shots and the result is even more unchecked police brutality.

[I leave it as an exercise for the reader to look at Obama's position regarding the use of violence in service of the state, before and after getting elected.]

2. Cops are generally not members of the community. We like the idea of the beat cop who lives locally and knows everyone, but in most cities that's not the truth. Cities try to hire locally, but as noted upthread there can be problems with that. For one thing, few cops want to live in the community they're policing: it's too risky, in their view. What if they bump into a guy they hassled in line at the grocery store, or worse, on the street when they're out of uniform?

For another, as noted upthread, a lot of young men in the community don't meet the qualifications, for reasons associated with chronic poverty, underfunded educational systems, and imbalanced law enforcement focused on drugs and crime in the black community. So many black men have arrests in their history that they have a much smaller chance, proportionally, of getting hired.

So what you end up with is a police force that, if not mostly white, is mostly not local. Is mostly not from the community, is not poor, is over-armed, and is trained to see the poor and POC community as the enemy.

Of course the result is tragedy.
posted by suelac at 9:02 AM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

The thing that worries me in all this is that it just seems to get worse and worse.

Not for nothing, but it only seems like it is getting worse because these things get reported far more often now. It used to be that an unarmed black guy shot by police was barely even a headline, and only made headlines if there was something really unusual about it - Rodney King for example was remarkable because there was video. I recall a police shooting in NYC 20 years ago or so that was remarkable because the cops reloaded and shot the victim some more.

But, look, 20 years ago, Zimmerman wouldn't have stood trial. Renisha's killer would've walked instead of being convicted of murder.

Progress is unfortunately a lurching, lumbering thing. Things improve, but only incrementally, and not everywhere at once. And sometimes people still do remarkably backwards and stupid things - like the death of James Byrd, Jr.

If you buy into this narrative that all things are getting worse, and will end in violence - you're really saying that the Conservatives and Racists are right and you should spend your time researching MREs and digging a moat.

There won't be enough justice or fast enough in this case. There never is. And the history of man is an image of the best among us dragging the rest, kicking and screaming, into the future.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:05 AM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

And I think in the US we're trained to separate race and class, as if "racism" were purely driven by misguided emotions and not by greed and the hunger for power. The cops themselves may be driven by all kinds of gross racist psychic sludge, but keeping black people down is part of keeping working people down. Black people may be at the bottom of the heap, but if the bottom of the heap gets pushed down, everyone else goes down too.

That's the point my husband was making yesterday, Frowner: Ferguson and Florissant largely comprise working-class, lower-middle-class people, trying to get by and save up enough to have something. The area boomed in the late 1960s and 1970s, when large auto and aerospace manufacturers hired people to work on their production lines.

I can't find the link right now, but there was a University of Missouri–St. Louis professor who did a Q&A in the last couple of days to the effect that St. Louis' unique history as a divided city in a slave state that stayed in the Union is part of the background to what happened in Ferguson, and that this could have happened anywhere in St. Louis. I know the city's overall legacy is part of it, but it seems that there are some more recent historical factors unique to Ferguson that made this sort of conflict more likely there. The New York Times story on the historical underpinnings of this tragedy backs me up on this.

The Times story explains that Ferguson was one of the inner-ring suburbs where blacks moved starting in the 1970s because it was an older suburb that'd been built before restrictive zoning made it hard to build apartments. People also moved there because at that time, you could get a job in industry near there—you could work at the Ford plant in Hazelwood or for McDonnell Douglas (later Boeing) in Berkeley. You could be a union machinist and make a decent wage. When my dad went to McCluer High School, the school had classes in shifts, because there were so many middle-class baby boomers there. Those baby boomers, black and white alike, many Vietnam War veterans, are the parents of the current generation of youth you're seeing in Ferguson, who came of age in an era in which unions declined, these huge auto plants in St. Louis closed, and news of radioactive environmental contamination (from government-funded industry) and white flight led property values (and subsequently, school funding) to decline. In North County, the class and race issues are intertwined, but class is definitely a factor that helps bring the race issues to a boil.

You get a bunch of working-class people in one place, all scrabbling for resources and influence, and you disproportionately put people of one color in positions of power over people of another color. You contaminate the environment through dumping and leaching into the creek and other property that rings the area, but don't tell anyone about it right away. Wait a few decades, and see how that turns out. People have been mentioning Philip Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment, and a North County friend on Facebook yesterday posted a link to one of the videos from Jane Elliott's famous blue eyes/brown eyes experiment. When I was in middle school in North County, we did the latter experiment for a week or so. It was eye-opening. It's amazing how quickly things break down when one race is privileged over another, especially when resources and jobs are increasingly scarce (which does other things to your brain). Add to that your parents' friends and your older brothers and sisters starting to get cancer at disproportionate rates (which officials repeatedly deny), likely from contamination in areas you and your friends played in as a kid, and see how you feel.

It seems like a lot of people in North County are getting screwed these days, but our black friends and neighbors are bearing a lot of the brunt of things. It's not right.
posted by limeonaire at 9:14 AM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

Thank you, sallybrown. You said it much better than me. I'm not saying race is not involved here, but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops. It's a cultural problem that is very complex. To paraphrase Rebecca Costa in her book "The Watchman's Rattle", "When faced with a highly complex problem, don't attempt to solve it with THE ANSWER. Try to think of one thing you can do to make it better". Just for the record, I was not being paid to be there. It was the only way I felt I could help. I certainly am not trying to elicit laughter, but I do think opening a dialogue is more productive than handwringing or violence.
posted by DaddyNewt at 9:15 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops. It's a cultural problem that is very complex.

How is this relevant? The topic isn't the deaths of young black men. The topic is the murder of young black men by the state.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:21 AM on August 13, 2014 [28 favorites]

I'm not saying race is not involved here, but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops.

Black-on-black violence is a red herring, especially when the basic problem here in this thread is the racist law enforcement and enforcers in Ferguson and, tangentially, elsewhere.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:22 AM on August 13, 2014 [18 favorites]

New statement from the Ferguson Police.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm not saying race is not involved here, but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops.

And most white people are murdered by other white people, yet there's this perception among certain groups (i.e. racist shitbags) that as white people we're all in very grave danger of being murdered by a black person. Then a black person gets murdered by a cop, and everyone starts talking about black-on-black crime instead of talking about how shitty our cops are. Can we not do that here, please?
posted by palomar at 9:23 AM on August 13, 2014 [40 favorites]

Nothing gets white folks talking about black-on-black crime like white-on-black crime.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:27 AM on August 13, 2014 [71 favorites]

New statement from the Ferguson Police.

Assemble only in daylight hours, in an organized and respectful manner.

Well now.
posted by rtha at 9:28 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

New statement from the Ferguson Police.

Text:

"The City of Ferguson mourns the loss of Michael Brown’s life that occurred this past Saturday. We understand members of our community, and those nationwide, are grieving with us. We have worked diligently to provide an opportunity for our residents to both grieve and voice frustrations through prayer vigils and peaceful protests.

We would like to extend our gratitude to the St. Louis County Police Department, the St. Louis City Police Department, the Missouri Highway Patrol, and numerous local law enforcement agencies for their assistance over the past several days. These officers have worked throughout the night to quell violent outbursts and restore calm to our City.

We are working to restore confidence in the safety of our community and our neighborhoods so that we may begin the healing process. We have heard the community’s cries for justice and assure the public that the Ferguson Police Department will continue to cooperate fully in the investigations led by the St. Louis County Police Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Justice Department.

We ask that any groups wishing to assemble in prayer or in protest do so only during daylight hours in an organized and respectful manner. We further ask all those wishing to demonstrate or assemble to disperse well before the evening hours to ensure the safety of the participants and the safety of our community. Unfortunately, those who wish to co-opt peaceful protests and turn them into violent demonstrations have been able to do so over the past several days during the evening hours. These events are not indicative of the City of Ferguson and its residents.

The City of Ferguson has been through tough situations in the past, albeit nothing to this magnitude, but will continue to display resilience and fortitude. The Mayor and City Council are committed to taking the necessary steps to rebuild and strengthen our community. We look forward to your cooperation and support."

posted by cashman at 9:28 AM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well. They're basically calling for a curfew. Wtf?
posted by supermassive at 9:29 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Christ. Every cop nation wide needs to be wearing a camera at all times.

If that happened, I'd open a repair business to fix all the cameras that would keep mysteriously malfunctioning and to replace all the storage devices that would keep mysteriously losing recordings.

No doubt; that's already an issue. Balko wrote about it and links to Greenfield's piece which quotes him talking about what he thinks is the right way to deal with it happening. I don't know that we as a society have the will to do it (whining about police unions is a MacGuffin; nobody has to sign a union contract agreeing to things, they just have to muster the will to draw the lines and deal with the negotiation) but it's not hard to draw a line in the sand and say there's no excuses.

And in cases where there should be audio or video that would corroborate one side or the other, and due to no fault on the part of the citizen there isn’t, there should be a presumption in any ensuing litigation that the audio or video would have corroborated the citizen’s account of the incident. That would seem to be a good incentive to make sure that the audio and video are both on, and that both are properly preserved.

I don't know how that works out in criminal cases; at the least I suppose you could somehow codify that the fact that there should have been a recording will be allowed to be mentioned to the jury. From an employment standpoint it should simply be no less enforceable than a requirement that they keep their firearm in proper working order or write their incident reports.

Anyone with good tips on immediately storing a phone's video online?

On the iPhone side the only one I know of for sure is Bambuser. Personally I just have a program called ClearRecord on my home screen that is set to auto-start audio recording when I open it and i have verified that it keeps recording when I lock the screen. It uploads to Dropbox but I feel like wanting to insure above and beyond that there's off-site is a secondary goal.

For resources about this sort of thing Flex Your Rights has some good information and they have covered the right to record. If you want to keep an eye on issues of police over-reach you can do worse than to watch CopBlock and their local organizations.

They're ~~sometimes~~ often a problematic organization; they tend towards libertarian/anarchist/open-carry douchebaggery and are mostly white dudes, but to some extent that's unsurprising - that means they're more likely to get tolerated or just arrested rather than shot or beat down. Sometimes the patronizing towards people of color on videos is a little tooth-grindy but they seem to me like people who are just patronizing to everyone who isn't one of their anti-authority brigade. Regardless, it's worth watching the stuff they put up to see just how awful cops can be - even when they know they are being recorded - to people who exercise even their most basic rights to be left alone and refuse to answer questions.
posted by phearlez at 9:29 AM on August 13, 2014

I'm not saying race is not involved here, but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops.

Michael Brown was murdered with a gun paid for with tax dollars by an employee of the government whose salary is paid from tax dollars. His murder is one of a string of such racially-motivated murders by governmental employees whose salaries are paid from tax dollars. That is fucking sickening and don't change the subject.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:30 AM on August 13, 2014 [67 favorites]

9:45 am to 9:47 am only, unless it's getting cloudy.
posted by rtha at 9:33 AM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

...Those that hold the pain and betrayal inside and somehow manage to resist violence — these citizens are testament to a stoic tolerance that is more than the rest of us deserve. I confess, their patience and patriotism is well beyond my own.

Behold, the lewd, pornographic embrace of two great American pathologies: Race and guns, both of which have conspired not only to take the life of a teenager, but to make that killing entirely permissible. I can’t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country. Tonight, anyone who truly understands what justice is and what it requires of a society is ashamed to call himself an American.

- David Simon after Trayvon Martin was killed. This shit must stop.
posted by AceRock at 9:34 AM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

So can we just dissolve all of the, say, sub-state level polities yet? I mean the feds have issues but I have basically never heard of a county or municipality being other than institutionally awful
posted by PMdixon at 9:35 AM on August 13, 2014

Ferguson Police are also refusing to name the officer who killed Michael Brown.
posted by palomar at 9:36 AM on August 13, 2014

but the vast majority of young black men are killed by other young black men not white cops. It's a cultural problem that is very complex.

So what? Those other young black men don't work for the state. Those other young black men are not issued badges, uniforms, vehicles, weapons, and arrest powers. Those other young black men are not paid by tax dollars. Those other young black men are not representing me, a citizen, in their actions. Those other young black men ARE NOT THE POINT and their actions have nothing to do with what is done by government actors under color of authority.

People in a position of authority - authority they do not have naturally, but which is invested in them by the social contract - have an obligation above and beyond that of average citizens. They are beholden to each and every one of us in a way another random citizen is not. That some other schomoe may be doing something too, or more often, will never be enough to make it okay for the cops (or army or politicians or...) to do it.
posted by phearlez at 9:38 AM on August 13, 2014 [25 favorites]

Ferguson Police have done the exact wrong thing at every step of this whole mess and should be disbanded immediately. The idea that the same people who are protecting the name of a murderer and pointing assault weapons at peaceful protesters are somehow at the same time promoting the safety of the community is a complete outrage.
posted by mike_bling at 9:40 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

No . Really. How is that not a curfew?

It is, and the justification is Fuck You.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:40 AM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

No . Really. How is that not a curfew?

A curfew is official. A curfew has explicit penalties and ways to handle violators. A curfew must be legally justified and executed and has exemptions. A curfew is not a veiled comment that maybe things won't work out as well for you if you're out after this time, buddy.

tl;dr: Nice intact skin you got there. Be a shame if something happened to it.
posted by phearlez at 9:42 AM on August 13, 2014 [30 favorites]

They're just establishing that Ferguson is to be a sundown town.
posted by borkencode at 9:46 AM on August 13, 2014 [23 favorites]

"The City of Ferguson would like to tell you that it is very very very sad about whatever it was that made you mad, we forget the details (and you should too) but the point is everything is FINE now with us, how are you? Everything would be fine with you too if you would just go home, and by "if" we mean "we're not asking" okay so ... great? Great! Thanks!"
posted by komara at 9:48 AM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

Ferguson Police are also refusing to name the officer who killed Michael Brown.

Gawker Media is asking anyone with information on the killer's identity to send it to them and they will verify and publish (if they can).
posted by sallybrown at 9:49 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Practically, this is is actually worse than a curfew, because violations are solely at the discretion of the police

Exactly, but it's not really meant for those people anyway. They already know that being out where the cops are is dangerous. It gets you herded, gassed, shot with rubber and wood projectiles. Nobody who is theoretically the intended recipient of that message lacks the knowledge that being out there is risky.

That statement is for everyone else watching. It's an inoculation against culpability when shit does happen. We told them how they could best be safe; if they got hurt anyways it's because they didn't listen,
posted by phearlez at 9:50 AM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

Meanwhile, in other parts of St. Louis County, BlueJae just told me this over Facebook:

They are checking the ID of people coming to the Mills Mall

like, there is a blockade at the entrance and the police are checking ID and asking what your business is at the mall

this is because two teenagers got in a scuffle at the Galleria. which caused the Galleria to SHUT DOWN AND EVACUATE THE ENTIRE MALL.

this is the same Galleria

that did exactly jack and shit when someone stole $600 worth of merchandise from my store in front of a mall security camera

and refused to do anything when i called in about a (white) man menacing people with a hockey stick

the Galleria fight was on Monday IIRC, just as a note. two teenage girls.

This whole thing is heartbreaking to watch, half a country away from home.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:52 AM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

wow. Metafilter on the front lines! This shit is crazy.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on August 13, 2014

Wow, that's gotta be the first ever Martial Law Apology. "We're ready to begin the healing process, and respectfully ask of those mourning or protesting: Don't let the sun set on you in Ferguson."
posted by forgetful snow at 9:55 AM on August 13, 2014 [14 favorites]

sio42: “No . Really. How is that not a curfew?”

Because they're not saying people aren't allowed to assemble after dark, just that if people do they're going to tear gas them and perhaps shoot some rubber bullets. They're daring people to come out after dark. They're going to continue to overreact and shoot tear gas at people until the people meekly submit.

The governor should step in immediately. If he doesn't, the president should. The area needs professional police immediately. FBI, Marshals, whoever will volunteer should be put in charge of police power in the area immediately. The idiots in charge in Ferguson seem bound and determined to not let this go until a cop winds up dead so they can really take the gloves off.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:59 AM on August 13, 2014 [29 favorites]

The governor should step in immediately. If he doesn't, the president should.

The fact that this has not already been done is another crime perpetrated against the people of Ferguson.
posted by winna at 10:06 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

There's no way to justify your riot-gear expenditures without having a riot, you know.
posted by empath at 10:06 AM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

The Derp and the Horror
posted by empath at 10:09 AM on August 13, 2014

So if I've got this right, an officer executed a completely compliant and non-resisting kid in front of a bunch of witnesses for a crime that is laughably implausible at best, confiscated any cameras nearby to help conceal his actions. Some of the witnesses have been bullied, and others were not questioned for days, despite their immediate vicinity to the entirety of the events.

Hearing all this, the town starts a peaceful protest (which is, of course, marred by a very small element of people who used it as a brief opportunity to loot), and these peaceful protesters are then met with what is, for all intents and purposes, a military level response.

How many more times are we going to allow this to happen.

If I had my way, none. I don't want to be the firebrand that advocates violence, but we are sixty years into civil rights for blacks, and they are still gunned down, beaten, harassed, or questioned significantly more than any other Americans. They occupy a huge majority of our already ridiculous prison population, and are and have been clearly the victims of an ongoing systemic campaign to keep them seconds class citizens.

Peaceful demonstrations have proved ineffective as the police are more than willing to step in and turn them into tinderboxes that lead to riots, and while civil rights for the black community has unquestionably improved over the last half-century, the imbalance is still far too great against them.

This might be one of those times when the only answer is violence (or some analog thereof. Maybe not violence against officers, but police property, or anything that takes money from their budgets. Less money, impacts an entire department negatively, and if you took enough from them, it would make it very difficult for them to operate, or at the very least, operate with the spare time to test their impunity from prosecution. - In my dreams, the officers are completely unharmed, while they get to watch all their tactical toys burn in the back seats of their squad cars.)

I know that there are good cops, but as long as they are silent on what they know is happening in their precincts, they are as culpable as the rest.

After violent guerilla action, it's amazing how quickly aggressors will attempt to embrace anyone who is willing to negotiate peacefully.

This entire country has become a police state; we live at their convenience. This was never how it was supposed to be, and it has been used far too many times as a cudgel against whatever race they feel needs putting back in place.

Shorter: We need to fight back, and we need to fight back in a way that hasn't been tried before, because everything that's been tried before has eventually failed.
posted by quin at 10:13 AM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

As I noted on Twitter, the Ferguson police really need to lay down specific guidelines for when people can protest. They're allowed to do that under the First Amendment, and vagueness = entrapment.
posted by limeonaire at 10:20 AM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

This might be one of those times when the only answer is violence (or some analog thereof.)

I think it's forcing the 'authorities' to draw a line in the sand and then crossing that line. "Approved" marches won't do it, but occupation will. Where are the occupy people right now? Seems like an ideal place for them to actually accomplish something.
posted by empath at 10:21 AM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

There's no way to justify your riot-gear expenditures without having a riot, you know.

Bingo.
posted by scody at 10:23 AM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Hearing all this, the town starts a peaceful protest (which is, of course, marred by a very small element of people who used it as a brief opportunity to loot), and these peaceful protesters are then met with what is, for all intents and purposes, a military level response.

Yes, and then there was some looting on Sunday night. All of the sudden the narrative shifted to black people are rioting. Then on Monday night they were shooting teargas at people in their yards and threatening to arrest journalists. So that's where we are.
posted by khaibit at 10:24 AM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's a systemic racism problem (and a systemic classism problem). There are a lot of solutions at the politics-and-elections level that people try, that solve bits of the problem, but they often have unintended consequences and are never as successful as one hopes. The real solution is at the "systemic racism" level, IMHO. (Although we should, of course, be doing what we can do to ameliorate that at the politics-and-elections level.)

Don't forget that civil rights movements have specifically targeted the legal system, often with effective results. Schools are integrated today because the law was changed, and upheld by courts and law enforcement officials, and because subsequent legal battles were won in favor of integration, not because some holistic "systemic" change happened.
posted by deathpanels at 10:30 AM on August 13, 2014

Not sure if this has been posted or not (and forgive me if it has) but Reddit has a nice live feed of the happenings in Ferguson and the surrounding area.
posted by stltony at 10:30 AM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is all so horrible.
Fortunately, we have the Trayvon Martin experience under our belt.
(meaning, one heartbreak can allow you to react to the next heartbreak differently)
Unfortunately, as a Missourian, I physically live south of Ferguson's latitude, and I so desperately want to live north of it.
(So far North, my address is Canadian)
posted by QueerAngel28 at 10:50 AM on August 13, 2014

Fox’s Todd Starnes does not care for Obama being nice to the parents of dead black kids

Why does he even bother meeting wingnuts halfway with rhetoric like this?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:06 AM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Michael Brown shooting: Police wound man as protests go on
posted by rosswald at 11:12 AM on August 13, 2014

SWAT teams were deployed about 3,000 times in 1980 but are now used around 50,000 times a year.
posted by rtha at 11:46 AM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

Actually violence never does much to achieve specific social ends, quin, usually it just tears down the status quo only to be replaced by something similar or worse. We achieve progress through peaceful movements with a clear constructive goal that posses an unattributable but credible threat of violence in the background. Examples :

(1) Of course, the Civil Right's movement was all nice and Christian while being visibly bitterly antagonistic to the Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, etc. And more importantly civil rights leaders wanted left-wing economic reforms too, but never actually favored communism. LBJ backed them partially because the CIA did. America could've otherwise wound up with an arm of communist black nationalists working with the USSR.

(2) We've little progress on the Israel vs Palestinian conflict partially because Americans and Israeli have always perceived the Palestinian's threat of violence as credible and attributable, neither of which is really true.

(3) India had shear numbers behind their independence movement, which always carries a credible threat of violence, but the movement itself was profoundly peaceful.

Ain't so clear how achieves a civil rights movement without communism in the background. Just one idea : I could imagine an anarchist/hacker/maker scouts type program for poor youth in America. It'd teach survival skills for both cities and rural areas, but mostly it'd focus on technical skills like electronics, machining, chemistry, and computer skills including encryption, hacking, programming, etc. It might teach a little about maintaining guns and shooting guns over very long ranges, while discouraging interest in handguns. It'd teach an lightly anarchist view of history and political philosophy that agnostic to the classical economic debate between capitalism vs socialism, so authors like Howard Zinn. In short, it'd produce kids who were better able to understand and articulate their community's current situation and better able to handle relevant information technology that's most likely to improve it. And if the situation ever gets so bad that such kids felt the need to commit violence then they'd be most likely to do so via chemistry, homemade drones, or a sniper rifle. Zero plans to commit violence, but increased effectiveness whatever the course.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Apologies if this was linked earlier, but I found this photo to be among the most compelling I've seen so far coming out of Ferguson (via):

This photo was also in that slideshow, the backlight (from emergency vehicles?) literally outlining the body language of this protester. (Of course, the effect itself is quite evocative, conjuring, among other things, the chalk mark outline so familiar to homicides.)

posted by tonycpsu at 12:12 PM on August 13, 2014 [32 favorites]

Oh wow, I hadn't seen that one. I'm so proud to say she was my wedding photographer.
posted by limeonaire at 12:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

[note: I am not advocating that the following is the correct thing to do, merely questioning why it hasn't happened]

Anonymous said, in their statement, "Attacking the protesters will result in the release of personal information on every single member of the Ferguson police department [...] [We] will seize all your databases and email spools and dump them on the Internet."

If it's true that they have this kind of access, or have already stolen this information, then I'm frankly surprised that they haven't found and released the name of the officer responsible for the shooting. The fact that they haven't makes me question the validity of their threat - not that the PD would confirm it by saying, "Yep, you got us - it was Jim Whassisname" if Anonymous were to leak it.
posted by komara at 12:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Organizations have learned not to put anything on email that can be hacked and/or subpoenaed. If the name ever comes out illicitly, I'll bet that it'll come from someone's personal email/text rather than an official account.
posted by Etrigan at 12:22 PM on August 13, 2014

I made the mistake of reading the comments for the "police fire tear gas into someone's backyard" story. 40% of it is people going "look, if they'd just obeyed the cops' orders to go inside, then they wouldn't have gotten gassed" or even "you can't riot one minute and claim civil rights the next."

The first statement, while literally true, could only be stated with a straight face by someone who's never been mad at police about anything, or thinks that it's always against the law not to do what a policeman says. The second statement appears to assume that the people in the backyard were either literally the same as the people who burned down the gas station… or just deserve to be treated as members of the same group as the rioters for reasons that are vaguely hinted at through the use of phrases such as "these people" but do not — do not, and how dare you even imply it — have anything to do with skin color.

Facebook-powered comment sections are interesting because I can read these comments and plainly see that they're all being typed by white people. It still astounds me that some people are willing to go through such mental contortions just so they can avoid the cognitive dissonance of having agreed with a black person about anything.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:32 PM on August 13, 2014 [29 favorites]

Yeah, that info that the doxxers have been posting about officers and public officials has been frustrating. I looked at some of the Pastebins so far, and yeah, I was able to find the same info in the (public, open-access) county real-estate database, but I couldn't tell for sure where some of these people lived—one house with an address posted is owned by a trust that an official is one co-trustee of, for instance, which means there's no way to know for sure who lives there. And I would guess, too, that local officers and public officials are aware that the info in the county real-estate and property-tax databases is public, and that many fill out the form to keep their info private every year—or have filled it out in the last few days. (By the way, though, that does speak to your thought, komara—all I've seen posted so far is publicly available info, or info that was previously publicly available before sites or individual pages were taken down.)

I use those county databases all the time in my work, including for fact-checking, and even if posting an official's home address was ever justified, which is definitely an open question in media circles, I wouldn't publish or otherwise rely on information where it was that unclear what was correct.
posted by limeonaire at 12:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

From the police statement: "Unfortunately, those who wish to co-opt peaceful protests and turn them into violent demonstrations have been able to do so over the past several days during the evening hours. "

That is 100% true. Unfortunately it's the same people who are making the statement that are turning things violent.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:47 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Anonymous posted what they claim is portions of audio of the police dispatch for August 9th. [YouTube - 1:50:56]
posted by cashman at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2014

i'm excited for someone to listen to that audio and tell me what is good in it
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:51 PM on August 13, 2014

St Louis MeFites. Come meet me at 6PM tonight (Wednesday) at O'Fallon Park [map]. Where a free concert is being put on, celebrating the life of Mike Brown. (as per Antonio French's tweet.)

Biking up from the South Side, if anyone wants to come with.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 12:52 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

8 minutes in (purportedly beginning at 11:05), it's all just standard things you'd hear - random calls and your standard stuff. Nothing notable as of yet. They probably posted more than needed, for context.
posted by cashman at 12:53 PM on August 13, 2014

Oh, and... this has been on my mind for the past three days:

"What y’all doin’ to that man? I’m sayin’!"/
Them handcuffs too tight for his hands! At least pull up his pants!/
Undercover van jumped out on 'im. He shoulda ran./
They talkin’ 'bout "He had somethin' in his hand".

I know my rights, and I’m lookin’ out for his./
I got a right to stand on this block; this is where I live!/
"I’m stayin’ right here!" Folks start crowdin’ around./
Niggas at the liquor store seen it all go down.

They say police been on the creep, all this week/
doin’ sweeps grabbin’ anybody standing on the streets./
But then, little man’s moms came downstairs./
She was screamin’ on 'em, crazy when she seen her son in tears.

We’ve been goin’ through this same bullshit for years./
Livin’ in fear. You have no fuckin’ idea.

What it’s like to be the prey; all day, every day.

Dead Prez — "For the Hood"

posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

This whole affair has my blood boiling. I was shocked to see not a single post on Facebook about it from my friends, so I posted it. The number of people that responded complaining of "rioting" and looting is so immeasurably disappointing. Or advising for "calm" until the "whole story" comes out. The number of people I have lost respect for today is amazing.

But beyond that, what hurt the most is that no one was talking about it, period. It just wasn't on most peoples' radars. I mean seriously? This is something big and ugly and no one is noticing. Those that have seem to think it's a bunch of looters. Everything gleaned from the mainstream media seems to suggest that this is some angry black people doing what those silly angry blacks do.

Interestingly, UK folks seem to recognize how fucked up this is. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising. We've screwed the pooch on this one big time.

Fuck this. Fuck everything. Fuck Fuck Fuck.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2014 [20 favorites]

It starts about 12 minutes in.
posted by maggieb at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2014

It is audio from the St. Louis Dispatch. Not Ferguson. About 12 minutes in, they learn of the officer-involved shooting, from the news.
posted by cashman at 12:57 PM on August 13, 2014

"I Do Not Give A Fuck About Your Anti-Black Opinions…At All"

If it is your “opinion” that the dehumanization of Black bodies and execution of Black people are isolated incidents or is ok when conducted extrajudicially or via the State since Black people (like every other race) also have civilian intraracial crime, YOU ARE WRONG. FULL STOP.

posted by audi alteram partem at 12:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

Ferguson police currently holding a news conference. Sounds like it has already gone to questions.
posted by cashman at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2014

Oh wow, now here's an interesting thing. I just did a search in the real-estate database, right? I was double-checking that what I said above was correct, after seeing yet another person repost the address info I just mentioned. Well, here's what I found: If you search for the person by name, they no longer come up in the database. But if you search by address, it's still in there. That's definitely interesting; I didn't realize that was how opting out of the database's search function works, but I checked the opt-out form, and yeah, it's for name only.

It makes sense, of course, that the person would have opted out, given what's happening—I wonder how many other officials are getting their info removed as we speak, and whether any missives have gone out to local officers and officials recommending that they do so, or whether it's just a personal-initiative thing on the part of some, or whether the county is taking care of this for them due to some directive. It's fascinating stuff for open-records geeks.
posted by limeonaire at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

The policeman who is speaking (the chief?) just said "The incident was not caught on camera". Pretty sure he was referring to the Brown shooting. (Right now he's talking about last night's shooting).
posted by cashman at 1:07 PM on August 13, 2014

Yes, just confirmed that the police say they have no video of the shooting. They have video from right after the shooting. He said that people called in to say they had video, but the police do not have any video of the shooting.
posted by cashman at 1:10 PM on August 13, 2014

The state senator BlueJae referred to above seems to be at the news conference. She asked the chief "Will I be gassed again?" "I'm the state senator and we were blocked in". The chief said "I know, I know". She repeated - "We were just peacefully protesting and I was gassed. Will I be gassed again?" Chief: "I hope not".

The chief guesses it will take two weeks to finish the investigation. Says there are a lot of witnesses coming forward. He said the entire investigation was turned over to the County before he arrived on the scene.
posted by cashman at 1:16 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Looks like it just wrapped up.
posted by cashman at 1:23 PM on August 13, 2014

Also from reddit, which has had a shocking amount of info and media posted about all this, is one of the most iconic photos of a protest i've ever seen, of a guy throwing a tear gas canister back at the cops.

That's big print, front page of the paper(or well, it's 2014, the "papers" website) material right there. And i'm sure it's exactly the kind of imagine they were hoping to avoid.
posted by emptythought at 1:35 PM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

jeffburdges : We achieve progress through peaceful movements with a clear constructive goal that posses an unattributable but credible threat of violence in the background.

Thank you, I think that's what I was trying to go for but unable to articulate. That there needs to be a credible threat of violence being the premise of the rest of my comment, because as of right now, the police don't really view the black community as a threat (except in cases of the LA Riots, I guess), but I believe that there won't be any traction for change until the systemic enablers realize that continued action in this direction might lead to more than it asked for.

The "Unattributable" is an interesting caveat, and one that I think would be absolutely needed for any kind of action on the part of the black community, because the moment it can be pinned on a couple of agitators, it will, and that will - from a media perspective, mark the end of it.

You ever reach that point where you are so frustrated that you can't even put together coherent arguments, even though you can clearly hear them in your head? That's me right now. I'm glad Metafilter is here to provide a more even and measured tone that what am obviously capable of at the moment.
posted by quin at 1:37 PM on August 13, 2014

one of the most iconic photos of a protest i've ever seen

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?
posted by rifflesby at 1:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

Yeah, some photojournalist is going to win a Pulitzer over this. That one, or the picture of six cops pointing rifles at one unarmed guy next to a mailbox that someone tagged "Fuck The Police".
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

Here is a collection of debris I found in #Ferguson yesterday there were tons more rubber bullets
posted by madamjujujive at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

The best protesters can multitask, and it takes a lot of calories. Ask Egypt.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Another dramatic photo from the last few days.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

You mean recording device. Is there video of the same scene? We could analyze the bag of chips to see what bad things the cops were yelling.
posted by shortfuse at 1:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

But beyond that, what hurt the most is that no one was talking about it, period. It just wasn't on most peoples' radars.

I bet they all had something to say about Robin Williams though, if your feed is similar to mine.

There are a few people talking about Ferguson on my list. One of them is a former area resident who is absolutely outraged at the injustice and how the police have handled everything. I've agreed with everything she's said.

Another only expresses how upsetting the property destruction and vandalism is, multiple times -- with no mention of the murder of an unarmed young man, nor the militarization of the police and the horrid way they have been treating peaceful protesters, nor the systematic failure of Ferguson's city government or law enforcement to represent or serve its people.

Another has only talked about how the Galleria is no good anymore ever since MetroLink brought "those people" to that part of town.

Another two only seem interested in white peoples' right to bear arms.

I feel a friends list purge coming on.
posted by Foosnark at 1:43 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Just posting a quick confirmation that the comments Elementary Penguin shared above about the shopping mall barricades and evacuation were indeed mine. Thanks, friend! *waves*
posted by BlueJae at 1:47 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I promise to visit if they wall North County in like Escape From New York.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:48 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

But beyond that, what hurt the most is that no one was talking about it, period. It just wasn't on most peoples' radars.

I'm not talking about Ferguson and Michael Brown on Facebook because Facebook isn't for talking about stuff like that, for me. I have no interest in debates with any remaining shitty racist friends might be lingering on my friends-list, and anything I have to say or links I have to share have already been seen by my actual friends.

Which is not to say that I don't care - I've had long private conversations with friends about it, and I'm attending the National Moment of Silence for victims of police brutality here in Chicago tomorrow night. I might post about that event afterwards, if it feels right.

I just hope no one takes my "choosing to remain silent on Facebook" as not caring. It's actually because I care a lot.
posted by misskaz at 1:52 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

Yep.

I mean there's probably a photo somewhere of me walking around with a bag of chips at the John t Williams protest in seattle. Lots of walking at protests man, you burn cals.
posted by emptythought at 1:53 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh gee, what was I just saying about "boy and his dog" fluff stories about K-9 units?
posted by limeonaire at 1:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

"I was shocked to see not a single post on Facebook about it from my friends, so I posted it. The number of people that responded complaining of "rioting" and looting is so immeasurably disappointing. ... But beyond that, what hurt the most is that no one was talking about it, period."

FWIW, the first part of your comment is basically why I haven't posted about it on facebook. I already know my friend-friends agree with me, and I really don't want to find out which of my kindergarten classmates are fucking dumbasses -- especially at the expense of friends who are personally affected by this in St. Louis or family members whose skin is not the same color as mine who don't need to see racist fucks being fuckheads in their cousin's usually-babies-and-gardening facebook feed.

I know the importance of using social media to normalize ideas in your peer group (that is, if I post about how terrible the events in Ferguson are, my social peers will go, "Oh, hey, that seems to be the right opinion to have") but I am really, really careful in how and when I do that. I wait until I can post a link to something interesting, clear, and so reasonable that anyone who disagrees with it is an OBVIOUS dumbass and does not need refuting. (For example I have extremely strong feelings on the unaccompanied minor refugees at the border, but waited and waited to post to Facebook about it until I had a story to link to that was SOLELY about the health and welfare of the children involved, so that anyone who disagreed with it was basically saying "eh, screw kids" instead of "here are my ignorant polemics about foreigners and immigrants.") Also by posting very rarely about politics, it means a lot more of my right-leaning friends see my political posts, because they haven't hid me from their feed for posting political links all the time.

Anyway I come here to get my liberal rage-on. Or talk to my meat-space friends in more private settings where I know lunatics won't intrude.

But yeah, I think about some of my cousins who are still teenagers, and who are not white, and I am really really careful about my framing on this sort of thing, because while it's really unpleasant for ANYONE to be subjected to racist vitriol, I feel like I have a special responsibility in that we have an affectionate family relationship and I am older to try to prevent that sort of thing from coming into my "living room" on facebook where usually I'm just telling them how adorable their prom pictures are. I don't want them to be scrolling through my facebook feed when we all suddenly discover some kid I knew when I was five was a submarine racist all this time and, surprise! decided to "come out" about it at this moment. It's gross and unpleasant for me, but I worry about it actually hurting people close to me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

one of the most iconic photos of a protest i've ever seen

I love the American flag shirt. Nice touch.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:11 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

> "I promise to visit if they wall North County in like Escape From New York."

Oddly enough. "Escape From New York" was actually (largely) filmed in St Louis. [ IMDb location list ].

1981 St Louis had "abandoned, post-apocalyptic" vibe locked down. Several location scouts of that era took notice.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 2:12 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Today in captions that should not ever need be written: "A child shields her mouth from tear gas fired by police on Monday night"
posted by PMdixon at 2:17 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Another dramatic photo from the last few days.

I'm struck by the two men closest to the camera. The civilian appears to be looking right in the cop's eyes, while the cop refuses to meet his gaze, his eyes averted and looking over the civilian's shoulder.
posted by Lexica at 2:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Today in captions that should not ever need be written

Yea, seriously. I'm just imagining someone sitting at their laptop writing that shit and going "God damn, what the fuck brought us to this point? why the fuck am i sitting here writing this?"
posted by emptythought at 2:21 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

A neighborhood just north of my home – Ferguson, Missouri – has been under siege by its own police force. Maybe it’s hard to imagine what that means if you’re not here ... but it’s actually harder to come to grips with if you are.

Ferguson is not a war zone. An article by my friend and fellow St. Louisan, Pamela Merritt.
posted by BlueJae at 2:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

This photo just screams AMERICA FUCK YEAH to me, in the best way (not being snarky).
posted by sallybrown at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

The comments about FB and difficult discussions reminds of tweet I saw the other day that rang true to me:

Twitter makes me like people I've never met and Facebook makes me hate people I know in real life.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

I guess everyone might see this already thru the Reddit page, but just in case:

Live: KSDK News conference with St. Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCulloch on #MikeBrown case.

(starting soonish)
posted by shortfuse at 2:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Starting now.
posted by cashman at 2:43 PM on August 13, 2014

After saying he's not going to have specifics about the case today, County prosecutor starts out with saying how tragic it is that Michael Brown lost his life.
posted by cashman at 2:46 PM on August 13, 2014

Oh gee, what was I just saying about "boy and his dog" fluff stories about K-9 units?

I thought this was on point: "I dont know that they should be teaching kids they & their dogs are friendly."

One of these days I'll need to post an AskMe about how to best educate my currently-under-2 kiddo about the cops as he gets older. The reality for him as a caucasian dude is probably about as safe as any police encounter can be, but I'm really not comfortable with giving him a blanket "trust cops" message. I don't believe it and it feels wrong to tell him something that's just not true for his browner friends.
posted by phearlez at 2:46 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Meanwhile in Seattle; white guy yells at protesters, including a black guy. Security guard pepper sprays the black guy. White guy walks away; black guy gets handcuffed when cops get there.

What the everloving goddamn fuckity fuck.
posted by emjaybee at 2:52 PM on August 13, 2014 [25 favorites]

emjaybee, that is some hard shit to watch.

I can't say I wouldn't get physical about that. Just sitting at my desk I feel frustrated to the point of swinging and I am not a violent person.

Fuck abuse of authority.

If you're a cop, sheriff, security guard, whatever, you should be required by law to wear separate video and audio recording devices. If they fail for any reason, you should lose the presumption of innocence for all claims against you.

Yeah, some cops are going to go to jail, get hurt, and maybe even die over this. But citizens are dying right now with no goddamn recourse or hope or salvation.
posted by Imperfect at 3:01 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

The county prosecutor has made it abundantly clear they want all the evidence they can get. They're going to gather it all and hand it to the grand jury, and go from there. He said "there is no timetable" and as a reporter asked if two weeks (was about right), he balked and said there were tests to be done on physical evidence and the like.

He stressed they wanted to do things expeditiously but not rush. If there is no indictment at the end of the process, he said all materials - every piece of paper, every transcript, every video, will be made available to the public.

To me it seems like this is going to last months. I get it and I like his general demeanor and his insistence that they are going to do a fair investigation and whatever it turns up will be the result. But it just feels like the same thing that will happen - sometime in a month or two we'll get the news of no indictment or no substantial one, and by then focus will have shifted. And somewhere along the line, if it hasn't happened yet, Trayvon's parents will probably meet Michael's parents. This is just hard to take. At some point there has to be a way to not let these situations, which occur in minutes in broad daylight, go on as if the event just happened, for months.
posted by cashman at 3:02 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't usually comment without reading all existing commentary, but I don't think this point has been addressed.

Ob1quixote's link yesterday to the Officer.com article about ambushing was interesting reading for sure, and O1Q is correct that anti-public perspective on the part of law enforcement does exist, is extremely dangerous, and urgently needs to be addressed.

However, a reading of that article satisfied me that the "enemy" discussed therein actually refers to the police. The author gives a run-down of various ambush types. That list may derive from a military source, or have been written with the word enemy used as a positional token for clarity in technical prose. The author may have even pasted that section in from some other text. In any case, the word enemy in those type descriptions means the recipient of the ambush, and his article is about cops getting ambushed and how to prevent/deal with that. Outside that list of ambush types, the word enemy does not appear. Were he using the term enemy to refer to civilians generally, or to the more restrictive class of potential-ambushers-of-police-officers, I'd expect that term to appear in part 2 of the article or in the remainder of part 1, which it does not.

Again, I'm sickened by the Ferguson incident and not trying to make excuses for the police. I'm aware and concerned about police militarization and have been a peaceful protester myself. But it's really important not to turn this into an us-versus-them thing. Most police are good people, and how police brutality happens is not simple. There are layers to it, and the LE community is not homogenous. The need to be rigorously accurate with accusations applies across all sides of all conflicts.
posted by maniabug at 3:04 PM on August 13, 2014

Anyone with good tips on immediately storing a phone's video online?

Someone just dropped off a stack of pamphlets for their new service at my work, ubnappd.

Stupid name, but it does a lot of what i was describing above. Video is instantly uplodaed. Video can not be erased in any way for 30 days. Is capable of doing just audio as well as AV.

Seems pretty sweet to me.
posted by emptythought at 3:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile in Seattle; white guy yells at protesters, including a black guy. Security guard pepper sprays the black guy. White guy walks away; black guy gets handcuffed when cops get there.

When it comes to police treatment of black men, the whole goddamn country is the Deep South.
posted by scody at 3:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I just hope no one takes my "choosing to remain silent on Facebook" as not caring. It's actually because I care a lot.

Yeah my family lived in Ferguson when I was born and I grew up in North County in another nearby suburb. My mom taught in Ferg-Flor for decades. I went to a private mostly white affluent Catholic school and am Facebook friends with many of my classmates from there. There is some true horror show garbage on my timeline (not all of it, thankfully.) But I will not be touching this issue on there with a ten foot pole and it is sure as shit not because I don't care.
posted by evisceratordeath at 3:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

(By which I don't mean to impugn all Southerners, but rather to point out that this incident in Seattle is Exhibit 2,492 in the argument that this sort of violent, systemic racism is a nationwide issue, not a regional one.)
posted by scody at 3:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

It really feels like we're right back to the worst days of the 50s and 60s. Or like we've always been there, and we're only just waking up to it.
posted by naju at 3:09 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

Like Donald Sterling is almost quaint right now. What the hell is going on?
posted by naju at 3:10 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Most police are good people

I'm sorry, I stopped believing that a few years ago after the umpity-umpth time I wondered "how could it be that none of this person's co-workers saw these sorts of things?" The answer in many cases is "it can't." It may well be that most officers aren't bad actors and would never do things that 5% of their cohorts do, but so long as they keep their mouths shut they're not up to the level of good people in my book.

The standard response to this is that they can't speak up for fear of being ostracized or even potentially put in danger because their fellow officers won't back them up. Which also doesn't exactly support the 'most' claim.
posted by phearlez at 3:11 PM on August 13, 2014 [42 favorites]

Like Donald Sterling is almost quaint right now. What the hell is going on?

Fear of a Black President.

Digital interconnectedness allowing for faster dissemination of info in situations where in the past, this sort of thing could have been rapidly swept under the rug.

Dissolution of American shared culture into insular inward facing tribes.

Militarization of police. Crazy use of force doctrines. 30+ years of inherently racist sentencing policies.

Economies on the skids nationwide.
posted by stenseng at 3:14 PM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

The standard response to this is that they can't speak up for fear of being ostracized or even potentially put in danger because their fellow officers won't back them up. Which also doesn't exactly support the 'most' claim.

Check out Adrian Schoolcraft.

And that was penny ante quota shit, not covering up an unjustified homicide.
posted by stenseng at 3:17 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Most people who catch smallpox don't die.
posted by PMdixon at 3:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

I shared the "which photo would they use" Tumblr and the main response I received was "well, they shouldn't share pictures of themselves dressed like that on the Internet."
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I believe this subconscious sense of having lost control (of the universe) exists for white people, at a heightened level since the election of Barack Obama and the continued explosion of the non-white population.

The irony is that black people understand this heightened anxiety. We feel it, too. We study white people. We are taught this as a tool of survival. We know when there is unrest in the souls of white folks. We know that unrest, if not assuaged quickly, will lead to black death. Our suspicions, unlike those of white people, are proven right time and time again.
posted by droplet at 3:30 PM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

Good person or bad person, I'm pretty much going to take it as a given that an officer is lying when justifying their use of force unless backed up by witnesses and evidence. Times a million for claims that someone "reached for their gun" out of the blue.
posted by Artw at 3:30 PM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

Joey, please tell me you linked to a similarly "racy" photo for one of those commenters and said "you first".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:31 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

Apparently, it's not "racy" if you're white.
posted by stenseng at 3:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Most police are good people, and how police brutality happens is not simple. There are layers to it, and the LE community is not homogenous.

I made a crack about this in a different thread, but more seriously, because this is serious: Police forces all over the country use the broken windows theory of policing - crack down on the small stuff so that it doesn't grow into or cover over the big stuff - but they themselves don't follow this, of course. They are repeatedly and demonstratively uninterested in getting rid of the bad apples that are spoiling them all. It's irrelevant if some or many individual officers are nice and even good people when they are entrenched in a system dedicated to protecting and perpetuating itself and they will not denounce it.
posted by rtha at 3:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [18 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos: I explained that the blog was created partially in response to situations like the Trayvon Martin and Michael Ferguson tragedies, and then I had to explain who both of those people were, and then I had to explain how news stations tend to use photos of young black men dressed as "thugs" as a way of justifying why they were frightening and, thus, the murderers were justifiable, and then she replied "oh, that's awful, but they still shouldn't be posting photos like that."

Edited to add scare quotes around "thug."
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Remember that the **ONLY** reason we have any video of the shooting of Oscar Grant is because someone refused to let their phone be taken. All other video mysteriously vanished. The security cameras were "malfunctioning" and all the rest got lost. Absent the person who, bravely and at not inconsiderable personal risk, refused to let her video vanish as well the police would have been able to hide all evidence of the real event and go with their original (lying) claim that Grant was trying to get a gun and that Mehserle killed him in self defense. Absent that brave person keeping the police from destroying her evidence Mehserle would have gotten a medal and a commendation and would be out there looking for another victim to kill.

sotonohito -- Look, I'm not saying that public distrust of the police isn't justified, but you're misrepresenting this particular case:

[Alameda County District Attorney] Orloff said Mehserle had committed murder because he killed Grant in an intentional, unlawful act. Orloff said no evidence his office reviewed - witness statements and video shot by BART passengers, including footage that the public has not yet seen but that the district attorney called "very helpful" - indicated the shooting was justified.

Also, the BART security cameras worked fine, it's just that they didn't show much of value. BART left the bullet impact damage in the concrete and later allowed the documentary-style recreation of Grant's last day, Fruitvale Station, to film there, which I find astonishing, really. They could very easily have made them film anyplace but Oakland.
Edit: Maybe not the best context for the film industry term "shoot".

Yeah, it may well be that the video that was released online ensured a public outcry and made it impossible for the BART Police to sweep it under the rug, but there isn't actually any evidence they tried to do so. Mehserle was convicted, albeit of involuntary manslaughter, and served only a short time in jail -- but he did serve time. Maybe choose an example where that didn't happen.

For my part I certainly believe that all police should always be subject to a competent civilian review board -- ideally at the county level or above. But I'll take always having investigations of police-involved shootings done by another police agency, if there's no other alternative. (This was recently made state law in Wisconsin, although it was already policy for local departments.) It's a step in the right direction. If we're so cynical that we believe any investigation is only being done for the purpose of disappearing evidence, tactically delaying any political fallout, and exonerating officers due to the thin blue line, well, we almost may as well give up on electoral democracy and our judicial system altogether. I think even if there's a high risk that cops will deliberately misplace or malfunctionize their recording devices, that's at least another barrier that they need to overcome and will (as the studies showed) probably deter a good proportion of bad behavior in the first place. And maybe the horse will learn to sing, you know?
posted by dhartung at 3:44 PM on August 13, 2014

> one of the most iconic photos of a protest i've ever seen
> Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

Not only are they potato chips, there's a high probability (approaching 100%, to my layman's inspection) that they're goddamn Rippies -- St Louis' very own regional chip delicacy "Red Hot Riplets"! Beloved of Black STL, and also of 'hoosier' (poor and working class) White STL.

That's an awesome and powerful photograph on so many levels. But the fact that he's holding rippies elevates this to iconic #SoStLouis status in my eyes.

This is such a culture-thick and proud and unique place. And this fixes for me that this is a STL protest, conducted by our STL community, and addressing longstanding STL issues... and we are filling the streets with our fucking people... rippies in-hand.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 4:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [34 favorites]

Fergusson Police aiming automatic weapons at peaceful protestors, media.
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Ryan J. Reilly is doing a good job tweeting SWAT activity in Ferguson right now. I counted 70+ SWAT officers. Guns trained on crowds. Insanity.

What could possibly go wrong? It's like these guys never heard of Kent State.
posted by Nelson at 4:10 PM on August 13, 2014 [19 favorites]

Oh my God, you're right, jjjjjjjijjjjjjj—they are Red Hot Riplets! My husband loves those. That photo is so American—and SO ST. LOUIS!

Sorry, by the way, that I can't meet up tonight. My brother's in town, so we're going out with my mom. I'm sure this is going to be basically the main topic of discussion, though.
posted by limeonaire at 4:17 PM on August 13, 2014

Can we just have one fucking thread where someone doesn't have to play devils advocate and go #notallcops or #notallisraelis or whatever the fuck? Why is someone(or several someones) always compelled to take the other side, seemingly just for the sake of it and get locked in mortal combat for a big portion of the thread, only to hand the reigns off to someone else?

Every longboat thread we've had recently about some serious upsetting issue has had it. The last police brutality thread had it, the one before that had it.

What is with all the dorm room contrarianism? Why is everyone so compelled to jump to the "not all cops are bad" and "if you can say you can't breathe, then you can actually breathe and you're not being choked to death" kind of crap?

Who are you really defending, and why? Because a lot of times it seems like it's not from some deep seated conviction or belief, but simply out of some maladjusted sense of duty that someone has to prop up the other wall of the tent.

Seriously, it's tired. Can we just discuss how fucked this shit is in peace without someone questioning how fucked it really is, or what fault the victims bear, or how what the aggressors did isn't really that clearly black and wrong, but kinda grey? Because it kind of links back to the discussion of fence post sitting in the Andrew W.K thread, and i feel like that disease is starting to metastasize on this site.
posted by emptythought at 4:21 PM on August 13, 2014 [29 favorites]

God, it's depressing that the optimistic outcome for tonight is mass arrests of the protesters and reporters.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:28 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

URGENT: The only 2 livestreams just went down, police is using jammers in #Ferguson. This is far beyond a police state.— Anonymous (@Crypt0nymous) August 13, 2014

posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Is that a bag of potato chips in his other hand?

Looks like that to me too, but we are not police officers. I am sure many an inquest could find people in uniform to testify that it was a Glock.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:43 PM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

The mounting horror of Antonio French's feed is just chilling:

Conetta @BmoreConetta · 18m
Police have moved tank and repositioned to face protesters on sidewalk across the street. #ferguson

Koran Addo @KoranAddo · 9m
Police now on the move, advancing on the crowd. #MikeBrown #Ferguson

Koran Addo @KoranAddo · 7m
Protesters asking: "what are we doing wrong" as police advance. Police dogs barking. #MikeBrown #Ferguson

Conetta @BmoreConetta · 6m
Police line moving towards peaceful protesters in #ferguson

It's like these guys never heard of Kent State.

Oh, I'm pretty sure at least some of them have heard of it. They just draw a different conclusion from it than we do.
posted by scody at 4:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

According to Salon, Anonymous is currently saying they're going to release the name of the cop. (Apologies if this is repeating something above, but I searched the thread on "anonymous" and "name" and it didn't look like it.)
I'm not sure I'm down with that, frankly. Obviously the public has a right to know the guy's name...soon. But right now it does nothing for *me* to know if it was Jack Jackson or Fred Fredrickson who did this, whereas a name will lead to an address and I think we can all imagine how that might turn out. What we really need right now is an example of the system working properly for a change (viz. life in prison for the cop if things happened the way it sounds like they did) and not mob justice.
posted by uosuaq at 4:45 PM on August 13, 2014

There won't be any mob justice. The minute that name comes out, they'll cordon off his house, they'll take him and his family right out of there - there's no fucking way that cops won't protect one of there own, no matter if he's a murderer and a racist. The entire might of the goddamn state will protect that guy if he's outed.

For me, Anonymous are Robin Hood and Emma Goldman and Zapata and superheroes all rolled up into one package some days.
posted by Frowner at 4:49 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Earlier today, I was making The Purge jokes in my head, but just now on Twitter, from the Washington Post's Wesley Lowery:

"We cannot guarantee your safety. We will not be answering 911 calls"— Wesley Lowery (@WesleyLowery) August 13, 2014

I mean, what the actual fuck.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

And now I'll stop posting stuff from Twitter, since you are all probably reading the same tweets I am.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:05 PM on August 13, 2014

Police have moved tank and repositioned to face protesters on sidewalk across the street. #ferguson

Police have moved tank

Police have moved tank

I don't really want to live in this America any more.
posted by jetlagaddict at 5:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [22 favorites]

The Onion: "Police Officer Doesn’t See A Difference Between Black, Light-Skinned Black Suspects":

Turner added that his dedication to upholding the law stems from a belief that all local residents should be able to walk their streets without fear, whether they come from an affluent white neighborhood or a working-class white neighborhood.
posted by dhens at 5:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

The thing is, this has to be punished, and pretty severely, because if not - then we know that you can shoot a kid in broad daylight and take over a town like you're an invading army and hold perfectly ordinary people at gunpoint and be only one stupid cop away from a massacre, and there are no consequences. All you have to do is look at how people have been emboldened by Zimmerman getting away with it. The thing is, in the past much of this stuff has been at least partly secret - people could pretend they didn't know, or pretend there wasn't enough proof, and there was at least some plausibility to that. Now, if this goes down live on Twitter and no one reacts --

If I were Obama, I'd be freaking the fuck out, too. There ought to be National Guard in there and get the Ferguson paramilitaries (which is all these are, they don't have a shred of legitimacy) shut down before more people get killed.
posted by Frowner at 5:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [26 favorites]

Snipers rifles aimed at unarmed American citizens right now in St. Louis, MO.

This must be some of that jackbooted Obamacare tyranny I've been hearing so much about.
posted by scody at 5:10 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

I would guess (although it's just a guess) that he and his family (and let's face it, if he has a wife and/or kids, they probably haven't shot anyone) are long gone by now, if the authorities in question have any sense.
I frankly believe he *should* be protected, but if you think I'm taking the guy's side, please stop thinking that immediately. I'm not a judge or juror, so I feel pretty free to assume this cop is guilty as shit. And he deserves what should happen to people in America if they're guilty as shit: being found guilty as shit by a jury of his peers, and sentenced to whatever you get for murder in that state.
Frowner just said:
The thing is, this has to be punished, and pretty severely, because if not - then we know that you can shoot a kid in broad daylight and take over a town like you're an invading army and hold perfectly ordinary people at gunpoint and be only one stupid cop away from a massacre, and there are no consequences.
...and if this is not left to the police, FBI, and Justice Department to take care of -- if the punishment is meted out by a (righteously) angry mob -- then we don't get to learn that you *can't* do that.
Of course, if the "authorities" can't actually serve up some justice in this case...well then.
posted by uosuaq at 5:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Remember how when Earl Williams talked about "production for use" in "His Girl Friday" he was a crazy person? Instead we passed multiple laws making it easier to outfit police officers better than some militaries, and yet we're kinda shocked when they start acting like one.

I really do not understand why the National Guard isn't intervening here to protect the populace from the police. This is insane and I am terrified of how this is going to end.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 5:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

The thing is, if people know who the guy is, it's harder for the state to cover up. The point isn't "oh, there should be mob justice", the point is that when the people categorically cannot act, we have no bargaining chip. What it always comes down to is whether the people in power think we can threaten them or not. If we're lucky, they're just afraid of the voting booth. In bad times, and these are bad times, they don't give a shit about the voting booth because they've bought, gerrymandered and hacked it. In bad times, all people have left is mass action as a threat. If no one knows who this dude is, no one knows if he's actually going to be tried, what his history as a cop is...it's much easier for them to cover things up and delay and lie, and then eventually recuperate the guy somewhere else.

If people don't like mob justice, there has to be some other avenue, and right now there isn't one. Almost no one wants to riot. I've been in violent protests - although nothing like this one, because I'm white and visibly middle class and I always knew that while I might conceivably be beaten (and I have been) I wouldn't be killed or convicted - and they are deeply traumatizing, even for people like me who also experience some exhilaration in the moment. (Protests where the cops were violent, I mean.)
posted by Frowner at 5:21 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

"We Demand Answers
Doesn't Make Us a Mob
It's Democracy"
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:21 PM on August 13, 2014

none of the media accounts I'm following - @wesleylowery, @ryanjreilly, @elonjames - have updated in a half hour. that worries me a lot.
posted by desjardins at 5:22 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Why hasn't the National Guard been sent in there yet?
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2014

Posse comitatus, Frowner. Gov. Nixon has the authority to order in the Guard, Obama doesn't (well, barring some sort of declaration of insurrection and activation of the Northern Command).

Charles M. Blow (public editor of the NYT) just tweeted:

Do authorities in #Ferguson not understand the power of images? They are doing it all wrong...

As there have been no updates by the WaPo's Wesley Lowery and HuffPo's Ryan J. Reilly for many minutes now, there seem to be assumptions by others that they have been arrested -- in a McDonald's. If true, extremely disturbing, not to mention baffling. I did just watch a local news reporter -- FOX 2! -- get shut down by police as they were admittedly "trying to lock down this area".

This may be a photo of Reilly's arrest.
posted by dhartung at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

maniabug: “However, a reading of that article satisfied me that the "enemy" discussed therein actually refers to the police.”

The language is cribbed from U.S. Army field manuals. In the context of the source, it is to be understood that the persons in the kill zone are the police. That makes the ambushers — the "bad guys" — us, the public.

You only get ambushed, especially in the deliberate manner discussed in the article, by your enemies. Quibbling over whether the ambushers or ambushees are labeled "enemy" in language derived from military manuals instructing our soldiers how to conduct ambushes is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullshit.

Just scroll up a little and look at the pictures. Us vs. Them is already in full effect.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Saw some retweets about journalists being handcuffed and/or detained:

@jonswaine: Just saw two reporters in ferguson cuffed

posted by CancerMan at 5:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm probably a little too historically-minded, and maybe that's messing up my view of things, but why are we assuming that the National Guard is going to intervene on behalf of the citizens, not against them? I feel like that's not how things always go when the National Guard intervenes in situations like this.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:26 PM on August 13, 2014

Maybe it's time to send in UN peacekeepers instead.

Also, Frowner, I'd be surprised if the state can cover for this guy *at this point*. The protesters have succeeded spectacularly in bringing national attention to this case. In other cases, maybe not so much.
posted by uosuaq at 5:26 PM on August 13, 2014

Hey desjardins, I'm looking at @BmoreConetta's feed and it looks like she's trying to find out whether or not @ryanjreilly was arrested when SWAT entered a McDonald's restaurant where he and @wesleylowery were working and recharging their equipment.
posted by neitherly at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

We're well past the point of wondering whether you can or can't do this, because it's happening and no one is stopping it. We have to assume this is the police system working as intended. Presumably the President can turn this into a federal security issue and stop what's going on right this instant, right? And he's not doing it. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it appears that whatever happens tonight is happening because it's tacitly endorsed all the way to the top.
posted by naju at 5:27 PM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

jetlagaddict: “Police have moved tank”

To be fair, it's an armored car, not a tank. I mean there's a sniper on the roof and all. It's still horrifying. It's not a tank though.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:29 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

The last damn thing I'm worried about right now is being fair about the difference between armored car and tank.
posted by palomar at 5:31 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Somehow, I don't think a town of 21,000 has the budget to pay for all the torts they've committed in the past several days.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 5:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

National Guard, federal security, whatever - this needs to be addressed from the top immediately. (I assumed National Guard would be useful because of their role in implementing de-segreatation but I have not kept up with how the National Guard has been used recently.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:33 PM on August 13, 2014

As this all shakes out - the people who are getting arrested now are going to need money for bail and lawyers and maybe medical expenses too (because I've been in plenty of situations where white middle class kids were badly hurt by cops during or after arrest, and if they'll do that to some white kid in a liberal city, they'll for sure do it to people in Ferguson). Possibly a lot of money, possibly a lot of lawyers, depending on what they're charged with. You may think "oh, they'll be charged with something that is bullshit and it will all get sorted out" but it can take three or four years and a bunch of lawyers and a ton of money to fight false charges and get it all cleared up. There's sure to be fund-raising efforts, so we should all keep our eyes open.
posted by Frowner at 5:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it appears that whatever happens tonight is happening because it's tacitly endorsed all the way to the top.

I think that's reaching a bit. But I would agree that it seems like at the very least the governor is not responding appropriately.
posted by elizardbits at 5:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Unconfirmed reports are that the police have arrested a couple of Washington Post journalists. If that proves true it's a really big deal.
posted by Justinian at 5:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

That's presumably a reference to Wesley Lowery and Ryan Reilly. Lowery is a Post reporter. And yeah, it's a big deal, and the Ferguson police are complete dingbats, on top of everything else.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Please god let them have arrested and confiscated the the equipment of some WaPo reporters. Please please please.
posted by rtha at 5:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [23 favorites]

I think the Governor needs to step in with the national guard and get the local police the fuck out of there.
posted by empath at 5:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Because if shit goes down in Ferguson, I doubt that the rest of St Louis is going to sit at home watching on the evening news.
posted by empath at 5:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

One WaPo, Justinian, and one from the Huffington Post. See my comment above.

I have not kept up with how the National Guard has been used recently

Well, aside from the fact that they have an execrable record of misuse in this sort of context, I really don't know that there has ever been a use of a National Guard against police and that is something they would seriously doctrinally oppose.

OK -- live -- new order to the crowd to back up 25 feet, after a long period of apparent disinterest.
posted by dhartung at 5:39 PM on August 13, 2014

Tweet from Lowery "Was arrested." Followed by "Also Ryan Reilly of Huff Po. Assaulted and arrested"
posted by dhartung at 5:40 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

"I just called Ferguson police chief to ask about @WesleyLowery and @ryanjreilly, told him what I knew. His response: "Oh, God." -- mattdpearce
posted by palomar at 5:40 PM on August 13, 2014 [21 favorites]

There's sure to be fund-raising efforts, so we should all keep our eyes open.

Agreed.

Unconfirmed reports are that the police have arrested a couple of Washington Post journalists. If that proves true it's a really big deal.

*Now* they've gone too far!
sorry to make fun of your comment, Justinian, but it's a bit sad that arresting reporters counts as the big deal here, even though it probably does
posted by uosuaq at 5:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wesley Lowery's Twitter account confirms that he and Ryan Reilly were both assaulted and arrested by Ferguson PD.
posted by palomar at 5:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

uosuaq: Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

What's "ink"?
posted by uosuaq at 5:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

The hackers' group "Anonymous" has released the full audio recordings of the St.Lousi Police Despatch from the night of Mike Brown's murder.

ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DISPATCH AUDIO TAPES, AUGUST 9TH 2014 11:05 AM - 6:05 PM, INCIDENT IS REPORTED AS "CROWD CONTROL PROBLEM"

AT 12:05PM, NO SHOOTING MENTIONED UNTIL IT IS CALLED IN TO DISPATCH BY WITNESS. FERGUSON PD DENIES IT KNEW ANYTHING AT THAT TIME. NO EMS WAS CALLED.

"be advised officer involved shooting... observation came from the news!"

44min mark in clip - "all cars, be advised we are switching over to the riot channel. riot A"
posted by 445supermag at 5:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

They don't say which agency arrested them, palomar. This is the photo Reilly took of SWAT team in Mickey D's just before he and Lowery went offline. The majority of the SWAT uniforms/vehicles seem to be St. Louis County Police, from what I've seen, but it is probably an interjurisdictional force.

A recent flap in Massachusetts involved a SWAT agency, an incorporated non-profit, claiming it was private and not governmental.
posted by dhartung at 5:47 PM on August 13, 2014

Conetta also reported a while back that State Senator Nadal had been taken into custody.
posted by nangar at 5:48 PM on August 13, 2014

Wesley Lowery's Twitter account confirms that he and Ryan Reilly were both assaulted and arrested by Ferguson PD.

Now it says;
1. Officers decided we weren't leaving McDonalds quickly enough, shouldn't have been taping them.
2. Released without any charges, no paperwork whatsoever
3. Refusing to give us any names of the officers
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:48 PM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

Just dropping in to add that red hot riplets are amazing (especially when they are 3 for $5 at Schnucks).
posted by stltony at 5:48 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

What's "ink"?

It's like toner, but wet.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 5:49 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

It was St. Louis County police. Still doesn't matter to me. Obviously the Ferguson chief of police knows he has an uncontrollable shitstorm on his hands, given that he gave the order to have them released with no charges and no paperwork (and no identifying information on the arresting officers, of course).
posted by palomar at 5:50 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wesley Lowery's Twitter...good grief. Just look at it now. The police are just ...well in the words of KRS-1 - "The police department is like a crew, that does whatever they want to do".

I think he's about to appear on MSNBC. It's either him or Ryan Reilly.
posted by cashman at 5:51 PM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

nangar, later the twitter account for Nadal indicates she wasn't arrested.
posted by CancerMan at 5:52 PM on August 13, 2014

don't the police in ferguson get it yet?

THIS IS NOT GOING TO END - THEY ARE NOT GOING TO STOP IT

all they're going to do is make it worse
posted by pyramid termite at 5:56 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

nangar, later the twitter account for Nadal indicates she wasn't arrested.

Thanks, good to hear that.
posted by nangar at 5:57 PM on August 13, 2014

Haven't tuned in to Rachel Maddow for a while, but I hope she kicks ass tonight.
posted by uosuaq at 5:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wesley Lowery looks to be on Maddow tonight. Right now.
posted by shortfuse at 6:01 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

THIS IS NOT GOING TO END - THEY ARE NOT GOING TO STOP IT

This is kind of how I feel. What now? The St. Louis County prosecutor isn't releasing any info whatsoever, saying there is no timetable. The Ferguson police chief handed everything over to St. Louis County. The police and their riot squad are roving around, tear gassing, arresting members of the media, not giving badge numbers when asked, not giving aid to people, explicitly saying they aren't responding to 911 calls.

What now? P.E.'s Lost At Birth is playing over this whole thing. "The future holds nothing else but confrontation."
posted by cashman at 6:01 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Coverage on NBC with Lester Holt seemed terribly slight and one-sided. I guess that's no surprise but I wish they had done half as good a job as they did on Lauren Bacall (RIP - not begrudging a segment on Bacall's death).
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 6:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is my twitter list, curated to be people on the ground vs. the hashtags. Nominations for additional sources (or better curated lists) accepted.

Right now MSNBC is All In with Chris Hayes. Reilly says will be on. Lowery will be on Maddow later.

Alex Heuer of St. Louis Public Radio tweets:
Mon. night & tonight there have been reports of journalists mistreated. I've talked to journos who cover wars & they get better treatment.

(Echoes the Business Insider article reader, a veteran, who said "we didn't suit up like that for a war zone".)
posted by dhartung at 6:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wesley Lowery ‏@WesleyLowery 2m

"The chief thought he was doing you a favor" - police officer tells me about release. With no charges, no police report
posted by rtha at 6:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

I was just on Facebook, noticed that Ferguson is the top story on the little #trending feed, clicked it... and got a link to an LATimes story. That's it. No giant list of other Facebook posts like every other stupid thing on the trend feed, just a notice saying that there are no more recent stories to show right now for this topic.

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but damn.
posted by palomar at 6:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Just in on KSDK: Michael Brown had no criminal background.
posted by dhartung at 6:09 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Wesley Lowery's twitter header photo is Radio Raheem. That sent chills up my spine.
posted by desjardins at 6:11 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Daily Kos: UPDATE: Gentle Giant Michael Brown -- ANON releases Dispatch tapes from Brown murder. Live.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 6:12 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

I just? I don't care? I don't care if he had a record a mile fucking long. Some lunatic white dude lures cops into an ambush and tries to steal a house, a house! A fucking house with people inside it! With a shotgun! And he's still alive. And an unarmed black kid is dead.

I don't care if he sold crack to actual babies.
posted by elizardbits at 6:15 PM on August 13, 2014 [89 favorites]

So cool to see that Dog the Bounty Hunter, Michael Cera and Death Cab For Cutie are trending ahead of Ferguson on my Facebook. Neat stuff America.
posted by naju at 6:15 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

From @wesleylowery:

"Apparently, in America, in 2014, police can manhandle you, take you into custody, put you in cell & then open the door like it didn't happen"
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Like is the idea otherwise that the cop was somehow able to stare at Brown and get a little Robocop pop-up visual with his arrest record so then he knew it was okay to shoot a kid for no reason?
posted by shakespeherian at 6:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

well really tho at least half this grotesque country assumes that all of "those people" are guilty of something so they had it coming anyway
posted by elizardbits at 6:23 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

So cool to see that Dog the Bounty Hunter, Michael Cera and Death Cab For Cutie are trending ahead of Ferguson on my Facebook. Neat stuff America.
posted by naju

To be fair, that's more Neat stuff Facebook than America.
posted by COBRA! at 6:23 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

That question and answer from the presser earlier today that they just showed on Maddow says it all. The reporter asks, "Why do you need mine-resistant vehicles?"

The chief responds, "People are using bombs now."
posted by ob1quixote at 6:24 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Egypt and America... which is which?
posted by desjardins at 6:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Witness Dorian Johnson has finally spoken to investigators, who at first did not seem interested and then claimed they could not locate him. He also spoke to the FBI.

shakespeherian: In my city there is a big three-ring binder of all the known "frequent flyers" in local parlance including gang members and their affiliation, and street officers are required to be up to date on its contents.

Statement from Bernice A. King of the King Center calling for non-violence.
posted by dhartung at 6:27 PM on August 13, 2014

The chief responds, "People are using bombs now."

Well yeah, that's absolutely true. But someone should have reminded him that McVeigh is dead because now he just sounds stupid.
posted by elizardbits at 6:28 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

People also use anthrax, I don't see them out in hazmat gear.
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on August 13, 2014

this reddit page has alex jones' live video feed of what's going on - people are quite angry - this isn't ending anytime soon
posted by pyramid termite at 6:32 PM on August 13, 2014

URGENT: The only 2 livestreams just went down, police is using jammers in #Ferguson. This is far beyond a police state.— Anonymous (@Crypt0nymous) August 13, 2014

Wasn't it recently addressed by the FCC that any and all jamming like this is a federal crime. You know, against federal law and stuff?
posted by emptythought at 6:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Streaming reddit and twitter and I keep on asking myself what year this is?!!
posted by Fizz at 6:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

To be honest I don't know that that anonymous tweet is even accurate. I just got caught up in the heat of the moment. The various police are doing stupid enough stuff that can be verified that I shouldn't be spreading rumors.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:35 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

People also use anthrax, I don't see them out in hazmat gear.

Don't give them ideas, they're already in space marine cosplay.
posted by Artw at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

WXIA TV 11 Atlanta's Brenda Wood speaks with DeKalb County Police Chief and President of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives Cedric Alexander and Martin Luther King III about the situation in Ferguson.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Here is a direct link to the Ferguson (from W Florissant) livestream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/6106473

which is unfortunately broadcast by Alex Jones/InfoWars
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:36 PM on August 13, 2014

shakespeherian: In my city there is a big three-ring binder of all the known "frequent flyers" in local parlance including gang members and their affiliation, and street officers are required to be up to date on its contents.

I kinda doubt any of them are marked 'Shoot on sight' though.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

The ACLU of Missouri has sent the Ferguson Police a letter detailing objections to its request for limiting assemblies to daylight hours. They have also filed Sunshine Law requests for materials including the name of the officer who shot Brown. Key graf:

Your statement, which will be viewed as an informal order, effectively imposes a ban on expressive activity that is protected by the First Amendment. There is no legal support for exercising such authority. Moreover, your demand for protests to proceed in a "respectful manner" is far beyond the bounds of permissible government activity. Government agencies do not get to demand respect from protestors. Respect is something that government officials earn from citizens, and citizens are entitled to express their lack of respect by protest on public streets and sidewalks.
posted by dhartung at 6:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [60 favorites]

Just heard: "Where Obama at?"
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Ryan Reilly describes arrest to MSNBC
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

As a preemptive heads up, a number of organizations have filed sunshine requests concerning the shooting with the various law enforcement agencies. The controlling law in this case is Section 610.100, which allows for the release of incident and arrest reports.

Arrest reports are defined as, " (2) "Arrest report", a record of a law enforcement agency of an arrest and of any detention or confinement incident thereto together with the charge therefor;"

Incident reports are generally the very first bit of documentation created after a crime has been committed/reported, a subsection defines it as,"(4) "Incident report", a record of a law enforcement agency consisting of the date, time, specific location, name of the victim and immediate facts and circumstances surrounding the initial report of a crime or incident, including any logs of reported crimes, accidents and complaints maintained by that agency;"

Unlike follow up investigative reports, which are closed records until the case is closed or goes inactive, incident reports must be released per the law. HOWEVER, there's a hitch, which I saw the New York Times acknowledged, there's an exception. In section 3 of this law, it states, "...if any portion of a record or document of a law enforcement officer or agency, other than an arrest report, which would otherwise be open, contains information that is reasonably likely to pose a clear and present danger to the safety of any victim, witness, undercover officer, or other person; or jeopardize a criminal investigation, including records which would disclose the identity of a source wishing to remain confidential or a suspect not in custody; or which would disclose techniques, procedures or guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, that portion of the record shall be closed and shall be redacted from any record made available pursuant to this chapter."

This reasonable likelihood aspect can be challenged in court, hence lawsuits, and while I have experience with Sunshine review, I'm afraid I don't know it off the top of my head in terms of the case law side of things (without refreshing via case law).

On preview, I see someone just mentioned the Sunshine law! So, well, there you go.
posted by Atreides at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

The police just started shooting Tear Gas.
posted by cashman at 6:41 PM on August 13, 2014

shooting gas - someone threw a bottle
posted by pyramid termite at 6:41 PM on August 13, 2014

Aww jeez, from that Reddit feed:

@mattdpearce
Question for whoever is in charge of this police situation right now: Who are you, and what is your plan, exactly? #Ferguson

@mattdpearce
Today when I asked the Ferguson police chief who is in charge of the riot police, he said it rotated on a night-to-night basis.

No one is in charge of this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

are they shooting bullets, too?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:42 PM on August 13, 2014

Crap! Are the police really shooting?!
posted by neitherly at 6:43 PM on August 13, 2014

"Someone threw a bottle, loudspeaker said this was no longer a peaceful protest, and teargas was fired."
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:43 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

I really do not understand why the National Guard isn't intervening here to protect the populace from the police. This is insane and I am terrified of how this is going to end.

Because the system can't truly admit the system is broken. The DOJ can make some big cantankerous noises like they did in Seattle, but in the end it's all just loud flatulence. They're still killing and beating people out here just like they always did.

If they came in and took control, they'd be admitting the system is broken.

Then what? Shut it down? Rebuild? It's broken all the way to the top if this happened in the first place. Admitting this is broken at this level is admitting that. Then what do they do?

Why would anyone who has a vested interest in the status quo, including the officers of the FBI and enlisted members of the national guard top to bottom, want that? You're asking for them to say the emperor has no clothes.

Good luck with that.

This is like a massive structure fire. They're just hoping it doesn't spread, and that it'll burn itself out. The fact that it was arson is irrelevant to them at this point.
posted by emptythought at 6:43 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

But hey you know CNN has the actress who was in Mrs. Doubtfire. So you know they're covering the REAL IMPORTANT NEWS!?!

UGh.
posted by Fizz at 6:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

"Someone threw a bottle, loudspeaker said this was no longer a peaceful protest, and teargas was fired."

Whose cynical enough to say agent provocateur? Because I've seen that first hand with my own eyes.
posted by emptythought at 6:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [14 favorites]

Today when I asked the Ferguson police chief who is in charge of the riot police, he said it rotated on a night-to-night basis.
Complete deniability. Nobody is in charge of an overall strategy and they can and will plead bad memories when asked who was responsible when Bad Thing X went down.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Is there another livestream up to follow this from?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2014

Police over loudspeaker again: "You are not peacefully assembling. You must leave the area immediately or be subject to arrest."
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:46 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

There's another stream on Youtube:
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:47 PM on August 13, 2014

thank you.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:49 PM on August 13, 2014

According to this guy, the county police are in charge tonight (and minutes ago he was also told that they were "not jittery at all", yet here we are). It took him several hours and follow-up calls, including the intervention of U.S. Sen. Blunt, to get that simple question answered, though.
posted by dhartung at 6:50 PM on August 13, 2014

Washington Post reporter arrested in Ferguson
"In a statement issued Wednesday night, Martin D. Baron, executive editor of The Washington Post, said “there was absolutely no justification for his arrest” and said the organization was appalled by the conduct of the officers involved.

“That behavior was wholly unwarranted and an assault on the freedom of the press to cover the news,” Barton said. “The physical risk to Wesley himself is obvious and outrageous.”"
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:51 PM on August 13, 2014

Car wash is on fire.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:51 PM on August 13, 2014

Police issuing final warnings...
posted by cashman at 6:53 PM on August 13, 2014

"In a statement issued Wednesday night, Martin D. Baron, executive editor of The Washington Post, said “there was absolutely no justification for his arrest” and said the organization was appalled by the conduct of the officers involved.

Smooth move, Ferguson.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 6:53 PM on August 13, 2014

Whose cynical enough to say agent provocateur?

Honestly my first thought was "look for a cop in really egregious blackface".
posted by elizardbits at 6:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [24 favorites]

The cops are about to move on the protesters. Please let there be no tragedy tonight.
posted by cashman at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

There's another stream on Youtube yt :

Good grief, I had to collapse the comment section...so depressing...
posted by neitherly at 6:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

To be fair, it's an armored car, not a tank. I mean there's a sniper on the roof and all. It's still horrifying. It's not a tank though.

From the photos I've seen, it looks exactly like plenty of vehicles I've seen in photos of iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc. just because the model plate on the side doesn't say APC, doesn't mean it isn't blatantly a military vehicle. I've seen very similar vehicles driving on the roads near JBLM in Washington. Which is a military base.

It seems pretty hair splitty to me, honestly. It's not the type of thing that should be deployed on the streets of an American city unless North Korea has just hit the beach with a landing craft, or some cult rolled out in force with surplus military vehicles of the same class and capability, or something. I'd understand it in situations involving civilians only if it was stuff like the mentally ill guy with the trackhoe thing who armored it and went on a rampage.

We should only be seeing these things if stuff has gotten fucked in the way they get in a b-list 3 star movie on netflix like Red Dawn or whatever the hell it's called.

This isn't N +1 force, it's N +10. If this was a twitch stream of some videogame the crowd would be hootling like chimps when the side who had those rolled them out. It looks like a setup to a fucking massacre.

Optics matter. And in this case, there's more to it than just optics as well.
posted by emptythought at 6:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Compare and contrast to the Bundy Ranch idiocy, and you will conclude either that Black Communities need more AR-15s and Gadsden flags, or that America is unfortunately not a post racial society.

Actually the Missouri militia claims they are present and providing security in specific areas.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 6:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am skipping some comments, so pardons if this has been addressed. Is there anything that can be done from a distance? Like when protestors took the Madison Capitol building, people were sending delivery? It seems like such a mess right now, but I want to do something.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:00 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

They don't need pizzas, they need body armor and gas masks.
posted by elizardbits at 7:01 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Video guy says he thinks he heard police tell them to turn off all reporting equipment. I can't confirm this from the audio, didn't catch it myself.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 7:04 PM on August 13, 2014

Here is another livestream: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

If it hasn't been mentioned, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police (along with the Kansas City PD) were actually placed on state oversight because things in that department went to pot decades ago.
posted by Atreides at 7:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

Ugh. Now deploying hideous high pitched sounds alongside tear gas and rubber bullets. That livestream is from the front line. Terrible.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

They're moving in.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 7:07 PM on August 13, 2014

Firing rubber bullets now.
posted by cashman at 7:08 PM on August 13, 2014

Wow, indiscriminately firing onto the crowd
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Tear gas being fired now. Explosions. It's wild that they have to know the world is watching, and they're doing this.
posted by cashman at 7:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Rubber bullets and tear gas. At protesters who are moving away - were moving away before the cops started firing. Christ.
posted by rtha at 7:09 PM on August 13, 2014

Surely this.
posted by uosuaq at 7:10 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Whose cynical enough to say agent provocateur?

Standard operating procedure in these situations.
posted by vibrotronica at 7:10 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

It looks like a tear gas bomb started a fire.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:11 PM on August 13, 2014

Setting people's backyards on fire. Jesus christ.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:11 PM on August 13, 2014

Boing Boing is reporting some kind of sonic weapon was used before they opened fire.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:11 PM on August 13, 2014

I love the dude that just appeared on one of the live feeds. He's just trying to get home to his family but the police have cut off the street. He's like "I aint trying to do all this belligerent ass shit." (pointing to the tear gas) "I'm really not". "I just got off the bus over here. I can't even get home to my family".
posted by cashman at 7:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [20 favorites]

"Boing Boing is reporting some kind of sonic weapon was used before they opened fire."

I certainly heard it on two separate livestreams simultaneously.
posted by komara at 7:13 PM on August 13, 2014

Yeah, then a fusillade tear gas and whatever else they're shooting.
posted by Pudhoho at 7:14 PM on August 13, 2014

sickening
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:15 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Elementary Penguin: "I promise to visit if they wall North County in like Escape From New York."

I had one "friend" on facebook say yesterday, "now can we dome in North St. Louis?"

Methinks I need to drop her; most of her other posts are about her motortrike.
posted by notsnot at 7:16 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

I hope these municipalities are ready for bankruptcy. Oakland (CA) is going to have to pay $4.5 million for just one Occupy-related incident (the total so far for all of them is $7 million), in which an officer fired "non-lethal" rounds directly at a protester (Scott Olsen, an Iraq war vet) and caused brain damage. The same officer then hucked an explosive teargas grenade directly onto him and the people who had come forward to help him. Bonus: The officer is not going to lose his job!
posted by rtha at 7:17 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

this is via Anonymous on Twitter: BREAKING: All satellite trucks belonging to any media have been ordered to move out of the area or be subject to arrest. #Ferguson
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:17 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

at Howard University today.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:18 PM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

Twitter - @jonswaine: Protesters chanting the title of a popular NWA track of which you may have heard
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

NABJ Statement on the Arrests of Wesley Lowery and Ryan J. Reilly
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

The YouTube feed I had posted seems to have cut out but the one whyareyouatriangle posted is still up.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 7:21 PM on August 13, 2014

There is a homeowner on the KARG Argus Radio stream who is going off. Telling all about what has happened, the background of the violence, how police pointed a gun at her when she was trying to pick up her 20-year-old, talking about how the black youth in the area don't have access to resources, just going off.

She said she wasn't trying to get hit by a rubber bullet. She saw the guy was media and so he could stay on her porch if he wanted to. She said something like "what we should have done is stop spending money in their communities". She said the police force lives in the county, does all these violent things in their community, and then goes back to their houses in the county. But one thing she kept saying and was adamant about, was that the police started the violence.
posted by cashman at 7:21 PM on August 13, 2014 [20 favorites]

Veterans on Ferguson: The general consensus here: if this is militarization, it's the shittiest, least-trained, least professional military in the world, using weapons far beyond what they need, or what the military would use when doing crowd control.
posted by mcmile at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2014 [28 favorites]

and via Eli Rosenberg (@EliKMBC), reporter at KMBC 9: "We're dealing with 4,000 animals in there, & you want to give me attitude?" The deputy yelled, mad I was taking a pic #Ferguson #MikeBrown
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:22 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

If this isn't ALL the news there is to read tomorrow then fuck this country.
posted by uosuaq at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

You guys the woman who just took this video is my friend who is in Ferguson right now where they are throwing tear gas and stun grenades. FUCK.
posted by BlueJae at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

So how do I start a non profit that does nothing but sue the everloving shit out of PDs and their enabling municipalities?
posted by PMdixon at 7:24 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

video of the McDonald's confrontation
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

The "commentary" in the livestream chat was making me want to PUNCH things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

So how do I start a non profit that does nothing but sue the everloving shit out of PDs and their enabling municipalities?

I believe the ACLU is kind of this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [14 favorites]

sio42: “It sounded like a car alarm in the vines but higher pitched.”

It's a Long Range Acoustic Device. Here's a video from Pittsburgh.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:26 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

FOX2NOW anchors: "…the most important thing is the safety of the officers, faced with increasingly heated protests nightly… said the mayor…". Infuriating.
posted by shortfuse at 7:27 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Buzzfeed confirms media trucks have been ordered out "so no way to get live images out for cable nets"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:27 PM on August 13, 2014

Are there any remaining live streams?
posted by uosuaq at 7:27 PM on August 13, 2014

So how do I start a non profit that does nothing but sue the everloving shit out of PDs and their enabling municipalities?

Also the National Lawyers Guild! Our friend Rachel is president of the SF chapter and sues the shit out of local police departments and wins.
posted by rtha at 7:28 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

I can't remember the last time I have been THIS angry. And my status quo is pessimistic and angry. I feel horrible for the residents in Ferguson.
posted by futz at 7:28 PM on August 13, 2014 [15 favorites]

They don't need pizzas, they need body armor and gas masks.

And buses to where the police live.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:29 PM on August 13, 2014

So how do I start a non profit that does nothing but sue the everloving shit out of PDs and their enabling municipalities?

No need to - you can volunteer for and donate to the ACLU, the National Lawyers Guild, or the Center for Constitutional Rights. ACLU's St. Louis Office has already put the Ferguson PD on notice [PDF].
posted by ryanshepard at 7:29 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

That Veterans on Ferguson link is definitely worth a look.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:31 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

No way to get live images out? So what? use you cell phone and get the video out later! Or am I misunderstanding?
posted by futz at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2014

St. Louis Doesn't Riot. - A great article showing how an area that has weathered some of the most violent times in civil right's history, did so without riots.

And how that has changed.
posted by quin at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Just to be clear, the only ones rioting in St. Louis at the moment appear to be the police.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [47 favorites]

It is really fucking surreal to be watching this on Livestream. I can't decide whether it's totally voyeuristic or not.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen: “Buzzfeed confirms media trucks have been ordered out "so no way to get live images out for cable nets"”

Solution I'm considering is to just go there tomorrow and do the show live from the site of the protests.— Christopher Hayes, 14 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 7:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Both live feeds seem to be down? Anyone know what is going on?
posted by TheTingTangTong at 7:36 PM on August 13, 2014

Oh good lord - a New Orleans police officer shot a man in the head as she tried to arrest him on Monday but "the department failed to notify the public about the incident until late Wednesday."

It's too easy to make the leap that the NOPD doesn't want the kind of attention that Ferguson is getting at the moment.

Thankfully the person who got shot is still alive, suffering only from a "graze wound."

I just ... can't get over the idea that right now as I'm watching the events in Missouri unfold live I find out that my own PD is giving us the "oh ... we ... didn't tell you? That we shot a guy? I swear we prepped a press release. Let me look under my desk, or maybe it fell in the trash."

Good. Christ.
posted by komara at 7:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

Had to turn off the FOX news stream. Anchors were suggesting that the police could resort to whatever show of force they needed if protestors didn't stop using foul language or stray onto the streets or, heaven forbid, throw something at the policemen. How can the good, faithful men of the police conduct a truthful investigation in such chaos?!?! And so on.
posted by shortfuse at 7:36 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Honest to God… Those aren't violent protesters, you dumb cops. Violent protesters are holding sticks and Molotov cocktails. Those people are holding cameras, filming your dumb asses.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

"the department failed to notify the public about the incident until late Wednesday."

what

i mean WHAT.
posted by rtha at 7:38 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

re: New Orleans - "Asked if the daily police log should have noted the shooting as well as the officer’s hand injury, [police chief] Serpas said it did. Told that the log mentioned only the injured officer, Serpas replied, “I don’t know. I’d have to go look at it.”

"Yeah, we shot a guy and an officer's hand got hurt in the process, so ... you know, we wrote down the important stuff."
posted by komara at 7:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Anyway, I'm sorry for the minor (but parallel) derail. I now gladly return you to the Ferguson horror.
posted by komara at 7:40 PM on August 13, 2014

Those people are holding cameras, filming your dumb asses.

A camera is a greater perceived threat to some police officers than a handgun.
posted by pjern at 7:40 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

This Livestream is still on.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Tear gas and rubber bullets, again, according to this livestream
posted by ChrisR at 7:41 PM on August 13, 2014

I think maybe it's recorded? I can't tell.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:43 PM on August 13, 2014

The video on that livestream is an archive from earlier this hour. Just before the live feed cut out, the videographer said he was down to about ten minutes of battery. I don't think anyone's found any new livestreams since then.
posted by chrominance at 7:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930 is still up, LRAD is on and the police are advancing.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:44 PM on August 13, 2014

A camera is a greater perceived threat to some police officers than a handgun.

Don't shoot!
posted by bowmaniac at 7:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Right. Okay. So are there any current live streams that are actually broadcasting? What's going on there?

It's weird -- I just finished reading Little Brother & Homeland, and this is so painfully reminiscent of that.
posted by ChrisR at 7:45 PM on August 13, 2014

Little girl and her mom (?) after being forced out of the McDonald's when the businesses were shut down at sundown.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

moonlight, it says "live event has ended, you can watch in DVR mode".
posted by dhartung at 7:46 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hell yeah get Chris Hayes there. All of them. I want to see Matt Fucking Lauer reporting from that street.
posted by argonauta at 7:46 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

While all this was apparently starting (AGAIN) I was catching the end of a "Community Conversation" on KMOV (local CBS channel 4) with two celeb anchors and a small panel including Ferguson chief Jackson, mayor Knowles, a representative of NAACP, and I didn't catch the other three's affiliation (one was clergy).
It was nauseating, everyone pretending the people were the problem, and just full of the general softballs and fluff about how everyone is working so hard to stop the violence and restore the peace.
I'm screaming at the TV, "for shit's sake, it's so easy, all YOU have to do is STOP the violence!!! "
And they kept putting up FB comments on the screen, you know, the really fair and balanced kind that maintain two sides to every story, that the community needs to calm down to heal, that the people just need to stop the violence, that everyone needs to... You know the rest. Ugh, I'm fucking fuming. Meanwhile I refresh this feed and find out it's already started up again.

Also, I hate to continue the derail but holy shit Red Hot Riplets really are the best. I take them out of town for gifts. Okay, back to rage.
posted by hypersloth at 7:46 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Wow these protestors are brave.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:47 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

So yeah it turns out I still had some innocence left to lose how bout that

I know it's 11pm ET but how is the fucking LA Times and CNN the only ones even close to covering this
posted by PMdixon at 7:47 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

There are no good cops.
posted by phearlez at 7:48 PM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

I'm currently watching the stream Moonlight linked to. AdBlock is good for killing off the racist spam in the chat window.

Watching the police advance right now with their LRAD going off. Scary.
posted by Foosnark at 7:48 PM on August 13, 2014

empath : I think the Governor needs to step in with the national guard and get the local police the fuck out of there.

Agreed. But I think they should go a step further and have the National Guard arresting the police involved for inciting a riot.

That would be an interesting response we haven't seen before.
posted by quin at 7:49 PM on August 13, 2014

I know it's 11pm ET but how is the fucking LA Times and CNN the only ones even close to covering this

Eh? CNN has been mostly covering Iraq. It's MSNBC that is running this non-stop.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Found a possible live (if it's archived, it's not obvious to me) stream here: http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/08/13/livestream-of-ferguson-protests/. Seems to be from behind police lines.
posted by uosuaq at 7:49 PM on August 13, 2014

Dhartung, you're right; it's a loop-- just thought "jesus christ how many times have they teargassed that one house with the black pickup in the driveway?" But Foosnark, if you haven't watched this footage yet, the woman talking about the peaceful protest upthread is in it and worth watching.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2014

talk about racist spam - all one guy seems to be doing is speed-keyboarding a swastika over and over again

moronic
posted by pyramid termite at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2014

how is the fucking LA Times and CNN the only ones even close to covering this

Al Jazeera has been on this since day 1.
posted by elizardbits at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

It is really fucking surreal to be watching this on Livestream. I can't decide whether it's totally voyeuristic or not.

Back when Occupy Oakland was active, the spouse and I had a citizen journalism livestreaming thing going on. We stopped when it became clear that all that remained of OO was the weekly "Fuck the Police" marches, which had turned into an excuse for the black bloc/junior anarchist types to break the windows of small local merchants and act aggrieved.

At times during the project we wondered if we were being self-indulgent or assisting voyeurism or anything like that, but a lot of people told us that they got a very different perspective on what was happening from watching our stream than they did from other media sources.

I'm feeling such an… I dunno, itchiness in the fingers, I guess. (Spouse was the in-the-field camera monkey running backwards from the police line and risking tear gas; I was back at base moderating the livestream chat to ban abusive commenters and provide additional background information to viewers.) This matters, and I feel like there's no way that I can actually affect it except for spreading information. I wish I could do so more directly.
posted by Lexica at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

and via Eli Rosenberg (@EliKMBC), reporter at KMBC 9: "We're dealing with 4,000 animals in there, & you want to give me attitude?" The deputy yelled, mad I was taking a pic #Ferguson #MikeBrown

>animals

>animals

That is some back woods 1800s racism right there holy shit god damn. I wish I could post a gif of the judge from Nothing but trouble.
posted by emptythought at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2014 [25 favorites]

“Enough is enough in Ferguson,” Matthew Yglesias, Vox, 13 August 2014

The local authorities clearly have no idea what they're doing, and higher powers from the state or federal government need to intervene before things get even worse.

posted by ob1quixote at 7:52 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

(CNN is on it now, of course, they were just late to the party).
posted by Justinian at 7:52 PM on August 13, 2014

I know it's 11pm ET but how is the fucking LA Times and CNN the only ones even close to covering this

Well, it's not as interesting as a hoax boy in a balloon or a devils mystery hole in Siberia. Sheesh.

Fuck cnn. And fox. And...
posted by futz at 7:52 PM on August 13, 2014

None of the options are palatable:

* The media is completely a tool of the thugs with uniforms and their billionaire owners (most likely this)
* The public just doesn't give a shit, or thinks "they had it coming to them" (a lot of this too, mostly from the right-wing fascists (R) )
* From the president on down, the authorities have told the media "Lauren Bacall or unmitigated support of the thugs, your choice of top stories...or else"
posted by maxwelton at 7:52 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

The WH just published this tweet that I'm sure they'll regret tomorrow:

@Schultz44: Readout of tonight's social gathering coming shortly - spoiler alert: a good time was had by all.
posted by anastasiav at 7:53 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Rubber bullets, per Twitter.

If you've never encountered them - they're not soft, they're hard enough to go into the body.
posted by Frowner at 7:53 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

@elonjames: Not even sure we can get back into #Ferguson. Asked a cop about road access and had a sniper rifle pointed at my chest

posted by audi alteram partem at 7:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

BBC has been on it too.
posted by futz at 7:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

To be fair, Lawrence O'Donnell has been on this for the entire hour. I'm not sure he's even taken a commercial break.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:55 PM on August 13, 2014

The impression I'm getting, basically, is that these cops have no idea what they are doing and no plan. What a colossal fuckup. Somebody needs to intervene immediately.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

I think this livestream is actually live: http://www.ustream.tv/embed/6106473
posted by jess at 7:59 PM on August 13, 2014

What happens is that they kettle people and then beat them down. I think that's what is happening now, the cops apparently issued a "final warning", which is what they do before they go in - but of course, by that point there's nowhere they'll let you run.

Please please please don't let anyone be killed or crippled.
posted by Frowner at 7:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

The plan of the moment seems to be to shoot reporters and set peoples' yards on fire.
posted by Foosnark at 7:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

@elonjames: Not even sure we can get back into #Ferguson. Asked a cop about road access and had a sniper rifle pointed at my chest

Wait, am I in the ISIS thread or not
posted by emptythought at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

(Flashbangs, teargas, rubber bullets. Thankfully not live ammo, though the way this is going I fear they might.)
posted by Foosnark at 8:00 PM on August 13, 2014

Or wait, even ISIS let vice in.
posted by emptythought at 8:01 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

Looks like St. Louis Co. police and fire do not encrypt their audio - live scanner feed.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:01 PM on August 13, 2014

Or wait, even ISIS let vice in.

Semi tangent, when did VICE become one of the best indie journalist outfits in the US? I remember when it was ironic hipster trash about 8 years ago; they've really gotten their shit together.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:03 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Such a contrast to, say the protests in Madison, where the police and protestors were so remarkably peaceful, Fox News had to resort to footage of a fist fight in San Diego in order to gin up the controversy.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

That Veterans on Ferguson link is definitely worth a look.

You weren't kidding - @BFriedmanDC "The gentleman on the left (Officer on the scene in Ferguson) has more personal body armor and weaponry than I did while invading Iraq." pic.twitter.com/5u6TxyIbkk
posted by cashman at 8:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Trymaine Lee on MSNBC right now describing less than 15 seconds between the initial bottle being thrown and the beginning of the entire crowd being tear-gassed.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Fox News had to resort to footage of a fist fight in San Diego in order to gin up the controversy.

Outside agitators?
posted by Pudhoho at 8:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

NBC claimed the protesters threw Molotov cocktails
posted by halfsquaretriangle at 8:07 PM on August 13, 2014

The Militarization of the Police

It’s dangerous and wrong to treat Ferguson, Missouri, as a war zone.
posted by gingerbeer at 8:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

moonlight: late last year.
posted by dhartung at 8:08 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

I suppose that the police with have to stand down and a bit of time pass before they start explaining that it was a "training failure" on the part of the police. Maybe the chief of police will have to step down, but no major changes in the police department, there.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:08 PM on August 13, 2014

Why are they still throwing tear gas canisters on the people who are standing there?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:09 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Trymaine Lee on MSNBC right now describing less than 15 seconds between the initial bottle being thrown and the beginning of the entire crowd being tear-gassed.

Almost like the police knew to move on a pre-arranged signal!
posted by winna at 8:09 PM on August 13, 2014 [23 favorites]

(The thing I keep thinking about that dispatch audio is that maybe the dispatcher didn't know about the shooting but I don't actually believe no one else in the PD did. Someone fucked up bad, someone else tried to hide it, they failed.)
posted by PMdixon at 8:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Dang, the feed cut out just as they were deciding to call it a night
posted by neitherly at 8:14 PM on August 13, 2014

Trymaine Lee on MSNBC right now describing less than 15 seconds between the initial bottle being thrown and the beginning of the entire crowd being tear-gassed.

That's not what I saw on the live streams. It was probably 7 or 8 minutes. And someone did throw a molotov on top of a car wash roof according to two people on one of the livestreams. Not at police, on top of a car wash roof, apparently adjacent to a business that was already burnt out.

(Unless there were separate scenes of confrontation, which would explain the different accounts)
posted by cashman at 8:15 PM on August 13, 2014

Via molly crabapple: Bail and Legal Fund for Those Arrested During Ferguson Anti-Police Demonstrations

before they start explaining that it was a "training failure" on the part of the police

Yeah, the bit earlier where he said the guys who arrested Lowery and Reilly "didn't know any better" was pretty much the Gillespie playbook (Chief played by Rod Steiger from In the Heat of the Night, apologizing for officer played by Warren Oates; if you have not seen this it is one of the era's great performances, and Oates is very good too).
posted by dhartung at 8:15 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

I keep waiting for the grown-ups from the various strata of government (city of Ferguson, county, state of Missouri) to step up and shut things down but there seems to be nothing but deafening silence.

I'm pretty sure, though, that if I were one of the people in charge of overseeing employment for the Ferguson Chief of Police (surely somebody has authority over him? city council, city manager, mayor, somebody?) that I'd at least want a damn good explanation why the man has time to be on panel discussion shows while this is all going on and to know what his end game plan is, because things seem to be moving in a really, really unfortunate direction.

I'm also puzzled by the county administrators and executives who seem to be loaning materials and personnel to support the city police, and by the conspicuous absence of state legislators and the governor -- the former should be pulling whatever strings they have a grip on to calm things down and the latter should be at least threatening to move in the Missouri National Guard to rein in the out-of-control local law enforcement before a bloodbath takes place.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:17 PM on August 13, 2014 [15 favorites]

I hope these municipalities are ready for bankruptcy. Oakland (CA) is going to have to pay $4.5 million for just one Occupy-related incident

And the people who will pay for that, in the long run, are the citizens of Oakland, not the police, who are defended by a fierce police union, and who mostly live in the suburbs. So the bad cops keep their jobs, don't get punished, and don't even have their taxes go up to pay for their misbehavior.

What we need is for the civil authorities to take control of the police, not clean up after they've run wild.
posted by suelac at 8:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [10 favorites]

According to the Reddit live-feed, cops are now responding to gunfire.
posted by codacorolla at 8:21 PM on August 13, 2014

‏@MuseZack: Remember in Hunger Games how even the District 12 poor whites were shocked by how brutal the Peacekeepers were in black District 11? Yeah.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:27 PM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

In case this hasn't been linked to lately on this thread, this is a live video feed from a protest front in Ferguson, MO: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930

As I write this, Wednesday night at 11:28pm central, peaceful protesters are being shot and tear gassed by paramilitary police.
posted by wormwood23 at 8:29 PM on August 13, 2014

What we need is for the civil authorities to take control of the police, not clean up after they've run wild.

In theory, civil authorities are in control of police, everywhere in this country. The Oakland police chief answers to the mayor and the city council. I don't know what "take control" (more) looks like.

Also, I've lost track and can't find any recent mentions: was an official curfew ever declared? Or are we still in the midst of illegal and mealy-mouthed "be respectful and go indoors when the sun goes down" stuff?
posted by rtha at 8:30 PM on August 13, 2014

It's the latter; no official curfew was declared. It was more in the nature of a helpful request.
posted by Justinian at 8:34 PM on August 13, 2014

Helpful with rubber bullets.
posted by Justinian at 8:34 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

.
posted by humanfont at 8:36 PM on August 13, 2014

The chief responds, "People are using bombs now."

I'm pretty sure all or most of our famous bomb-throwers have been white guys, not black working class people. Maybe they should take those mine-resistant vehicles to park in front of abortion clinics; lotta bomb threats there.
posted by emjaybee at 8:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [14 favorites]

#Ferguson tag is still working just fine for me. That's what I'm using to follow the news.
posted by gingerbeer at 8:38 PM on August 13, 2014

Imagine this with no Twitter or Vine. We really wouldn't know what the fuck was going on, since they kicked the satellite trucks out.
posted by desjardins at 8:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

MSNBC is reporting that an Al Jazeera media vehicle was hit by a teargas cannister; the reporters moved away from their vehicle and the cops then went to the MSNBC crew with guns drawn and pointed, telling them they were trying to get them out of the area for their own safety. The MSNBC reporter is saying that the cops moved the Al Jazeera crew's camera so that it was pointed down at the ground. (I'm surprised it didn't OOPS fall over and get broken.)
posted by rtha at 8:39 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

#Ferguson tag is still working just fine for me. That's what I'm using to follow the news.

Ditto. Also showing at the top of the Trends list, and has for hours now.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:41 PM on August 13, 2014

That live feed - it looks like those kids are all boxed in - there's cops on at least two sides that I can see. And they're all in their summer clothes, too, everything is going to hurt. The cops like to wait until there's just a smallish group remaining and then box those people in and beat and arrest them (If you're ever in a serious protest, try to keep everyone together and then disperse all at once - don't just keep marching with some people trailing off bit by bit.)

It's always so weird, because there's always so much waiting in a protest. Hanging about weirdly in the middle of the street. Waiting and tension interspersed with panic; false starts.

Those kids are so good, so tough.
posted by Frowner at 8:41 PM on August 13, 2014 [21 favorites]

20 Year Old Dillon Taylor Executed by Salt Lake City Police, Allegedly for Wearing Headphones, Unable to Hear Orders
posted by jeffburdges at 8:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'd chalk any Facebook #trending weirdness up to your own personal filter bubble until proven otherwise, but it's too opaque to actually know for sure.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

HuffPost reporter on his arrest in #Ferguson: "He slammed my head against the glass purposefully on the way out" http://huff.to/1kCAUVr
posted by jeffburdges at 8:45 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

None of the coverage made me cry till this. Imagine what this little girl from Ferguson learned about her country and its police today. [Photo: Robert Cohen] http://t.co/PZA8GDvVh5
posted by phearlez at 8:47 PM on August 13, 2014 [7 favorites]

STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

Fire him. Please.
posted by argonauta at 8:50 PM on August 13, 2014 [17 favorites]

What the wife of the #ferguson chief of police has to say on her Facebook pic.twitter.com/dGdkegmfc4.

Her outlook is no doubt shared by the entire police apparatus.
posted by Pudhoho at 8:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

“In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest” [with video], Wesley Lowery, The Washington Post 13 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 8:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is that Facebook post real?
posted by mirepoix at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2014

Boston.com is doing a pretty good storify liveblog.
posted by valkane at 8:56 PM on August 13, 2014

What the wife of the #ferguson chief of police has to say on her Facebook pic.twitter.com/dGdkegmfc4.

Her outlook is no doubt shared by the entire police apparatus.

The person I saw tweet this initially is now saying it's a hoax, so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.
posted by almostmanda at 8:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Antonio French hasn't posted in awhile. Hopefully he's just taking a nap and charging phone.

Per Twitter he has been arrested.
posted by ghharr at 8:57 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

What the wife of the #ferguson chief of police has to say on her Facebook pic.twitter.com/dGdkegmfc4.

Can we bring back banishment?
posted by nathan_teske at 8:57 PM on August 13, 2014

Many people are reporting on Twitter that the Facebook post is NOT real. (Please do not target anybody with outrage until further verified.)
posted by Lexica at 8:58 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Antonio French hasn't posted in awhile. Hopefully he's just taking a nap and charging phone.

Per Twitter he has been arrested.

To be clear, that's Ferguson MO Alderman Antonio French, arrested by his own police force for protesting.
posted by wormwood23 at 9:02 PM on August 13, 2014 [23 favorites]

As best I can tell, the awful person is real and awful, but she's not related to the Ferguson police chief. Also, the Ferguson police chief is not calling the shots at the moment, because the county has taken over.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:03 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

People in #Gaza are tweeting information on how to handle tear gas to the citizens of #Ferguson. Mind blown. #MikeBrown
posted by jeffburdges at 9:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [22 favorites]

Unconfirmed via Twitter:

Antonio French is currently locked up in the Ferguson jail facilities— Tef Poe/FootKlan (@TefPoe) August 14, 2014

Just confirmed with his partner. @AntonioFrench has been arrested.— Colleen (@colleenkelly) August 14, 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 9:04 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Many people are reporting on Twitter that the Facebook post is NOT real.

Thanks for the information, it's good to know.
posted by Pudhoho at 9:05 PM on August 13, 2014

STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

That's it. I officially have no more shit left to lose. I have more shit on backorder so I can lose it, but it's gonna be a while.
posted by rtha at 9:05 PM on August 13, 2014 [45 favorites]

So olders and wisers: if I, random upper-middle class white guy drive five hours to stand witness and possibly get arrested or something does that help? hurt? stupid narcissism that no one would possibly give a shit about?
posted by PMdixon at 9:06 PM on August 13, 2014 [5 favorites]

To be clear, that's Ferguson MO Alderman Antonio French, arrested by his own police force for protesting.

Heavens! I'm sure Ferguson officials won't miss a beat in stating that it was "for his own safety."
posted by neitherly at 9:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that "wife of the police chief" is fake. The shitteeth in that "what did this little girl learn tonight" tweet comments, though, should be castrated.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:08 PM on August 13, 2014

Governor Jay Nixon: Canceling all appearances at the @MoStateFair to visit North #STL County tomorrow. Statement to follow.
posted by valkane at 9:09 PM on August 13, 2014

I sincerely hope the coming lawsuits are sufficient to prevent Ferguson from continuing to operate a police force.

And obviously not all right-wingers have taken the sociopathic police department's side :
"Images & reports out of #Ferguson are frightening. Is this a war zone or a US city? Gov't escalates tensions w/military equipment & tactics." - Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI)
posted by jeffburdges at 9:11 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

PMdixon: “So olders and wisers: if I, random upper-middle class white guy drive five hours to stand witness and possibly get arrested or something does that help? hurt? stupid narcissism that no one would possibly give a shit about?”

I'm angry enough to consider it myself. Not knowing the area or having a definite place to stay, I feel like I'd only get in the way and perhaps take a hotel room from someone who really needs it. Better to donate what I would have spent on gas to one of the groups mentioned up-thread I think.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

That Facebook post appears to have originally been posted by @occupythemob, associated with Anonymous.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:14 PM on August 13, 2014

From TPM :

"I'm being advised now by the community relations, number of measures that we can use to improve race relations, community relations," he [Police Chief] said. "Tell me what to do and we'll do it."

I'm gonna suggest not shooting unarmed teenagers in the back. Just throwing it out there. I've never been a cop, or done police work or anything, but I know a few cops - some still serving and some retired - and none of them have shot unarmed teenagers in the back. Their careers have gone pretty smoothly so far.

I know, I know - correlation and causation, and whatever. Like I said, it's just a suggestion.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:15 PM on August 13, 2014 [27 favorites]

What is going on the ground now? I am almost at the end of my phone usage minutes so I can't stream...
posted by futz at 9:17 PM on August 13, 2014

neitherly: “To be clear, that's Ferguson MO Alderman Antonio French, arrested by his own police force for protesting.”

Seeing enough on Twitter that I believe, but so far unable to track down definitive tweet or other info.

Also, Mr. French is Alderman of the 21st Ward of St. Louis. He is not an elected official in Ferguson. He's is, however, a goddamned American hero.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:19 PM on August 13, 2014 [21 favorites]

I am mute with horror.
posted by KathrynT at 9:19 PM on August 13, 2014

I just watched a bit of this livestream, futz, and saw a group of protestors - standing with arms held in the air in the traditional "I surrender" pose - fired upon with tear gas and rubber bullets.

That disturbed me an awful lot and I had to stop watching.
posted by nubs at 9:20 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

Senator Claire McCaskill:

Today & tonight dozens of calls including head of civil rights division at DOJ. Tomorrow call with Atty Gen Eric Holder.#MikeBrown

Continuing to work the phones to de escalate the tense and unacceptable situation in Ferguson. #MikeBrown

posted by almostmanda at 9:21 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Ferguson MO Alderman Antonio French, arrested by his own police force

He is an Alder for the City of St. Louis. Not Ferguson, not St. Louis County.

That Facebook post appears to have originally been posted by @occupythemob, associated with Anonymous.

As far as I can tell, the FB poster -- who has her account locked down, at least now she does -- is a genuine Tea Partier, but someone who lives in Pittsburgh, PA. The man on her FB avatar -- who is cropped out in the Twitter post going around -- is not Ferguson Police Chief Jackson, or even County Police Chief Belmar. I could not find out who he might be, but it seems something is crucially incorrect and the cropping makes me suspect deliberately misleading. Please disregard.
posted by dhartung at 9:24 PM on August 13, 2014

This is a shameful moment in our history.
posted by humanfont at 9:24 PM on August 13, 2014 [16 favorites]

Saw that tweet from McCaskill earlier; it's the ONLY comment I've seen from anyone at a federal level. Good on her, although I am skeptical she'll achieve anything.
posted by suelac at 9:25 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

@PMDixon, ob1quixote: This is my second week living in St Louis and even though it's a house share, I've got at least one couch and enough room for one or two sleeping bags for any Mefite who wants to get out here for a few days to show their support. (of course free of charge)

This stuff is crazy and I can't stand being close to this and just holing myself up in my room. I know I can send money, but I can certainly show up to help out if someone five hours away is talking about putting in an appearance. Just memail me.
posted by neitherly at 9:26 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

STL County Police Chief Belmar: "We've done everything we can to demonstrate a remarkable amount of restraint."

But it's true. They really believe this. They really truly believe that since they aren't firing live rounds into unarmed people that they are showing restraint and should be commended for it. Because they don't think black people are human beings. End of story.
posted by elizardbits at 9:27 PM on August 13, 2014 [69 favorites]

We've heard plenty at the federal level, suelac, like oh Obama's nothing statement. At least Justin Amash actually blamed the police for "[escalating] tensions w/military equipment & tactics", but he's only a representative.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:33 PM on August 13, 2014

Also, Mr. French is Alderman of the 21st Ward of St. Louis. He is not an elected official in Ferguson.

Thanks for setting me straight. Every second that he and all the other protesters spend in jail is just mind bogglingly disgusting.
posted by neitherly at 9:37 PM on August 13, 2014

Ferguson Police Chief Tim Fitch studied counter-terrorism in Israel with IDF
posted by BinGregory at 9:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [9 favorites]

Confirmed that Alderman French has been arrested, via his wife: @clairecmc @GovJayNixon @MayorSlay @ChiefSLMPD Hello, @AntonioFrench is in Ferguson jail, think you can make a call or two please?— Senka (@senka) August 14, 2014

Also, from the same Huffington Post article I found that tweet in, Daily Telegraph reporter Jon Swaine's vine of the cop telling him, "Move or you're next."
posted by ob1quixote at 9:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

In a Country with Permanent Empathy Fatigue, You Can Do Pretty Much Anything You Want to the Despised

But are you imagining that all this is going to shock the nation's conscience? Are you imagining that Heartland America is going to be horrified and ashamed at the disproportionate display of force in Ferguson, or disgusted that freedom of the press is a joke to these cops?

Forget it. Somehow, a certain percentage of American heartlanders managed to feel empathy across tribal lines half a century ago, in the civil rights era. Maybe it just that it was a prosperous time, and the majority populace felt it could spare a thought for peaceful black protesters being attacked by racist mobs, menaced by police dogs, assaulted by firehoses, blown up in churches.

But in 2014 we live in a country where middle-class wealth stagnated for thirty years before the bottom dropped out of the economy altogether, and now the wealthy are experiencing a members-only recovery while the rest of us cling to what we have left. It's made heartlanders very sparing of their empathy. Besides, there are ready-made formulae under which they can dismiss the victims in Ferguson: some of those protesters did loot and riot, so I guess all of them deserve whatever happens to them; plus, we don't trust the media, so who cares if those snotnoses get roughed up a little by the law.

Maybe I'm underestimating America, but I doubt it. I just can't see any reason why the arrogant SOBs who run Ferguson shouldn't ride roughshod over everyone they're confronting -- why would they expect to be accountable afterward? There's no large, broad progressive movement in America; the civil rights movement is moribund and elderly; and what the hell could we do to punish some inner-ring suburb of a midsize city anyway? Mount an economic boycott? What do we buy from Ferguson, Missouri, that we could stop buying?

Portions of the heartland will get upset at much milder infringements -- even imaginary ones -- that affect members of their own tribe, but I just don't see America caring about this. I hope I'm wrong, though.

posted by tonycpsu at 9:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [25 favorites]

MeFi's own Jason Scott is asking people to archive what they can, especially streams.

BinGregory: St. Louis County -- not Ferguson -- Police Chief Tim Fitch, who fucking retired months ago. This crowdsourcing is coming up with utter crap as far as I can tell -- photos of the officer over the body who isn't the officer who fired the shot, constant agency confusion, and as noted a few comments above, supposed comments by a "wife" who has a different name and lives in Pennsylvania. I hope people will be wary of these things because they don't help the cause when they're horseshit.
posted by dhartung at 9:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

O'er the Land of the Free and the Home of the cops who will straight up murder you if you're Black, or Latino, or look at them kind of funny, and don't do exactly what they say when they say it, and then terrorize your entire community Braaaaave!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:49 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

Animals. For fuck's sake, who are the wild animals here? Who are you not allowed to look directly in the eye, who exists outside the rules of civilization? It's so telling when power feels the public gaze itself as violence. Journalists, protesters, bystanders, anyone is fair game for committing the cardinal sin of looking too hard or too long at the apes inside these men. God knows what else they are used to getting away with.
posted by forgetful snow at 9:55 PM on August 13, 2014 [13 favorites]

Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed—
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There’s never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this “homeland of the free.”)

Let America Be America Again - Langston Hughes
posted by koakuma at 9:56 PM on August 13, 2014 [28 favorites]

Our local news ran Ferguson coverage and it was surprisingly not terrible. (Not great, but not what I've seen elsewhere) but in typical local news fashion, they interviewed minority locals who explained how they're parents warned them about what to do to keep from getting shot, like being overly polite and excessively compliant. Then they spoke to a mother explaining how this was something she worried about for her kids. I knew of all this (probably thanks to metafilter) but was delighted to see it being broadcast on TV in the highly segregated Milwaukee. Maybe this is a conversation we can really start having.

I too have been contemplating road tripping to Ferguson to lend my support physically. But also fear it wouldn't be helpful. Still, I just checked; 5.5 hour drive.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:00 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

You and your whole race.
Look down upon the town in which you live
And be ashamed.
Look down upon white folks
And upon yourselves
And be ashamed
That such supine poverty exists there,
That such stupid ignorance breeds children there
Behind such humble shelters of despair—
That you yourselves have not the sense to care
Nor the manhood to stand up and say
I dare you to come one step nearer, evil world,
With your hands of greed seeking to touch my throat, I dare you to come one step nearer me:
When you can say that
you will be free!

You and your whole race - Langston Hughes
posted by sallybrown at 10:02 PM on August 13, 2014 [8 favorites]

Chris Hayes is going to Ferguson tomorrow.
posted by Small Dollar at 10:06 PM on August 13, 2014

I can pray  
all day  
& God  
wont come.  

But if I call  
911 
The Devil  
Be here

in a minute!

"Monday in B-Flat" - Amiri Baraka
posted by sallybrown at 10:07 PM on August 13, 2014 [23 favorites]

Where is the NRA and all those Clive Bundy protestors? Probably working for the police.
posted by humanfont at 10:11 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

When I recall from my history texts that at a similar juncture in a contentious moment in history, EISENHOWER stepped up to protect his fellow citizens who were being harmed for no reason other than their race, well, then it's at that point when I don't know what to think regarding the current office holder partying in the Vineyard.

I really don't. Surely the current office holder could've sent his regrets to this dear friend, gone to his office and called for a meeting: "What do we do here?"

A staffer pawning off a tweet at 12 in the morning isn't what I expect from a leader in a time of crisis.

Now, maybe in 1954, Eisenhower simply wanted to show Gov. Farbus he was the boss, however, no one seems to be showing the Saint Louis County PD that, no matter what the staff of that PD personally thinks of black people, when it comes to AMERICAN CITIZENS exercising their rights, the Constitution is boss.

END OF.
posted by droplet at 10:13 PM on August 13, 2014

Where is the NRA and all those Clive Bundy protestors? Probably working for the police.

Yeah, they're probably in the same klavern.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [15 favorites]

Foosnark : (Flashbangs, teargas, rubber bullets. Thankfully not live ammo, though the way this is going I fear they might.)

Actually Rubber bullets, teargas, and flashbangs are all lethal under the the wrong circumstances. They are obviously not as dangerous as live ammo, but make no mistake, each "less than lethal" option that the police are using here has killed people in the past.
posted by quin at 10:13 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

Looks like St. Louis Co. police and fire do not encrypt their audio - live scanner feed.

Yeah, but they have separate "riot channels" they've also been using, so the scanners online mostly aren't getting everything. I think one of the Redditors might have set up a scanner that gets the riot channel, too, but I'm not sure.

If it hasn't been mentioned, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police (along with the Kansas City PD) were actually placed on state oversight because things in that department went to pot decades ago.

Yeah, and the city just won back control of its force, whereas if the county keeps this up, they very well could (and perhaps should) lose theirs.
posted by limeonaire at 10:14 PM on August 13, 2014

Does Missouri actually have a governor?
posted by Artw at 10:18 PM on August 13, 2014 [12 favorites]

USA Today reporter Yamiche Alcindor (@yamiche) is taking Vines outside the Ferguson PD, where some protestors have gathered. Protestors are chanting "What if this were your child?"
posted by princesspathos at 10:23 PM on August 13, 2014

Pudhoho : What the wife of the #ferguson chief of police has to say on her Facebook pic.twitter.com/dGdkegmfc4.

Her outlook is no doubt shared by the entire police apparatus.

"Violence in America today is not caused by the war; it is not caused by repression. There is no romantic ideal involved. Let's recognize these people for what they are. They are not romantic revolutionaries. They are the same thugs and hoodlums that have always plagued the good people."

Richard Nixon in response to encountering Vietnam protestors. At least he was more eloquent, even if his overall point of view was pretty much the same.
posted by quin at 10:23 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh, hey, apparently it's this guy, so I guess we can give up hope for any kind of action there.
posted by Artw at 10:25 PM on August 13, 2014

Petition Your State Reps: All Police Must Wear Cameras

Petition Attorney General Eric Holder to Mandate Uniform Cameras For All Police Departments in the United States

Make a federal decree requiring all law enforcement officers nationwide to wear body cameras that record audio and video
posted by hypersloth at 10:28 PM on August 13, 2014 [18 favorites]

Alexis C. Madrigal (The Atlantic, Fresh Air, etc.) is asking for help building out a wiki on the Ferguson & St. Louis Cty. police forces.

Pudhoho : What the wife of the #ferguson chief of police has to say on her Facebook

Once again: On digging I can find no connection with the person who said those things and the state of Missouri, let alone any individual law enforcement personnel there.

Yeah, Artw, I have to say political courage has been in short supply. I know more or less that from the inside (West Wing, wherever) this looks like a third rail, but for pity's sake.
posted by dhartung at 10:29 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I regret posting that link before I vetted it.
posted by Pudhoho at 10:31 PM on August 13, 2014

Governor Jay Nixon (D) has finished his dessert and finally made a statement. He canceled a trip to the state fair in order to visit the area tomorrow, so you know he's gonna be pissed.
posted by rhizome at 10:33 PM on August 13, 2014 [6 favorites]

this noble gesture will go down in the history books as the Corndog Sacrifice of '14
posted by elizardbits at 10:35 PM on August 13, 2014 [43 favorites]

#Ferguson #FergusonRiot #JailSupport helps those arrested in order to connect them to lawyers, relay messages... pic.twitter.com/9NQJclwvah
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:37 PM on August 13, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's iffy for the cops when the governor says "Ask for calm & urge law enforcement to respect rights of residents & press". It'll get interesting if sends the national guard to forcibly remove the police, like his twitter followers suggest.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:42 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

urge law enforcement to respect rights of residents & press

Boy, you don't hear those words in that order very often.
posted by dry white toast at 10:44 PM on August 13, 2014 [4 favorites]

I am TBH not seeing this as a strong statement and more as a bland abdication of responsibility. Bringing the police under control or replacing them seems unlikely for a man who seems less in charge of them and more afraid of damaging their feelings.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on August 13, 2014

In case this hasn't been linked to lately on this thread, this is a live video feed from a protest front in Ferguson, MO: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930

Wow, i'm finally home on a real big kid computer and i could open one of these... and what the fuck is with the chat? it's just a warp speed stream of "FUCK N*****S" blasting by at multiple thousands of characters per second. seriously?
posted by emptythought at 10:52 PM on August 13, 2014

Interesting conspiracy theory posted by a Missouri self-proclaimed "drone lawyer": this is planned to get change of venue out of St. Louis County to rural all white jury

Medium: Strange Days in #Ferguson, a good roundup/intro to pass around for your friends (if you're seeing this here, you probably don't need it, though).

emptythought, I am pretty certain you and billmon would get along. He's been on a tear about this.

There's also this tweeted factoid that I haven't seen verified:
Mike Brown was the first homicide in #Ferguson this year. Think about that.
posted by dhartung at 10:56 PM on August 13, 2014 [1 favorite]

@ElizabethKSDK: Breaking: @AntonioFrench being held at #Ferguson police station charged with unlawful assembly @ksdknews
posted by Artw at 11:12 PM on August 13, 2014 [2 favorites]

Interesting conspiracy theory posted by a Missouri self-proclaimed "drone lawyer": this is planned to get change of venue out of St. Louis County to rural all white jury

Yea, this will happen.

it's just way too plausible considering everyone involved on the local government side. bunch of good old boys who seem to think all these folks should still be picking cotton.

also oh man that twitter.
posted by emptythought at 11:29 PM on August 13, 2014

In Geneva, a bid to shame US over the killings of young black men

In 2012, Jordan Davis of Jacksonville, a 17-year-old black teen, was shot by a white man during an argument over loud rap music. His father, Ron Davis, is bringing a case before the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination with the assistance of the United States Human Rights Network, and the US will be forced to answer questions at the meeting about the state of race relations here.

(At this time, nearly two years after the killing, shooter Michael David Dunn remains unconvicted due to a mistrial and still awaits retrial -- set to begin next month -- on a first-degree murder charge.)
posted by dhartung at 11:59 PM on August 13, 2014 [11 favorites]

St Louis/County Police SWAT Training.
posted by weston at 1:05 AM on August 14, 2014

Forgive me if I missed this—what with the deployment of military vehicles, and launching of tear gas, and restrictions on air space, and arresting of reporters—but has any explanation been given for why EMTs weren't dispatched to the scene of the shooting, or why the still-nameless officer felt the need to interfere with two teens to begin with?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

this is just fucking shameful
posted by angrycat at 2:30 AM on August 14, 2014

Palestinians giving advice to Ferguson residents
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

People should keep in mind that the Ferguson PD is no longer in charge of all this; it's County police and the Highway Patrol. Disbanding Ferguson's police department isn't going to fix this, because the problem goes deeper and higher.

Bringing in police officers from other towns to quell the protests has its own badness, of course.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

What should happen is charges being filed against every one of the cops involved in this, and the governments involved.

What will happen is medals, awards, and back slapping all around as the grind of police presence finally stamps out the protests.

And then we're back to the status quo of a brutal police department.

What can we do to change this? The legal system seems to have no real solution, but can it be gamed? What if each citizen of Ferguson entered a separate suit, not a class action suit, in a sort of legal DDOS attack? What we have done in the past self evidently has not caused any change as evidenced by all the cops shooting black kids, so we need a new approach, but I have no idea what that approach is.

Anyone? Please tell me there's some hope for real change. Something, anything, we can do.
posted by sotonohito at 2:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

In my desperate googling for organizations working on long term responses to systemic racism and police violence (search terms "black, youth, justice" "police brutality") I stopped mid-search when I realized that the annual day against police brutality is 18 years old this year, just like Mike Brown.

The October 22 Coalition to Stop Police Brutality, Repression and the Criminalization of a Generation has been mobilizing every year since 1996 for a National Day of Protest on October 22, bringing together those under the gun and those not under the gun as a powerful voice to expose the epidemic of police brutality.

The coalition seems super ad-hoc, and the one St. Louis group they list hasn't updated their tumblr in a year. Even their main project StolenLives.org is struggling to keep up with the documentation of deaths from police brutality - "The second edition of the Stolen Lives book documents over 2000 cases in the 1990s alone. Volunteers are needed to help with the research and editing of cases since then. Please contact oct22national@gmail.com for more information."
posted by spamandkimchi at 3:13 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Not surprised but I turn on the news this morning and CNN is all "violent protests" when it should really be "militarization of police" and "excessive force".

Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 3:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

why the still-nameless officer felt the need to interfere with two teens to begin with?

Apparently they were black while crossing the street
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Graphic warning: "no protestors have been harmed"
posted by Metafilter Username at 4:42 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

The image under the "no protestors have been harmed" link is very graphic indeed and potentially distressing. It's a picture of a wound from a rubber bullet. However, it's one of the clearest explanations I've seen of why non-lethal doesn't mean harmless, and why police using rubber bullets shouldn't be the easy choice that it seems to be.
posted by frimble at 4:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

That video: Your Future indeed. A bunch of bumblefuck teen-aged boys playing army with real guns. It's all fun and games even after they murder you.

Those kids are so good, so tough.

Watching the live feed, I imagined those police steamrolling down my boyhood streets.
My sisters and our friends playing kickball in the street with absolutely no protection.
I am imagining I am 12 again and living in Ferguson.

It's late summer and instead of playing kickball in the street or just enjoying the last few weeks of leisure before school winds up again, the children of Ferguson are afraid for their lives.
The police force tasked to protect them is instead terrorizing them.

This is not like the old days where you can throw rocks.

They have tanks.
posted by Pudhoho at 4:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Just wanted to address the question of the benefit of being white and going to this situation. I have some experience in this area. Been involved with supporting a long-term minority confrontation with the police et al. I suspect that though the context and people are different that the patterns are similar.

While it's obvious to mefites what is coming out in mainstream media is distorted, biased and just plain wrong in many cases. During the thing I was involved in when I read the media stories about events that I saw with my own eyes it was like the story was talking about something entirely different. I spent a lot of time, online and just telling people what really happened. IT SHOULD NOT be this way but as a white person I know I got traction with people that likely would have dismissed the info if it had come from the minority person. This has some value in terms of making sure as much of the correct info is out there. Even just being able to talk about it to people in your daily lives or come across is a good thing. It's been many years since the thing I was involved in but it still occasionally comes up in conversation (usually BS) and I'm able to call out the BS in social groups that the main people involved have little or no access to.

The more diverse faces present makes it more difficult to make it just a thing involving that 'other' group. Media will try to manipulate in the sense of forming a specific narrative. Anything that makes it more difficult to ply that narrative helps.

This type of thing is exhausting both physically and emotionally for the people involved. It hits the core in ways that I as white person can only try to understand and empathize with. I was told that it helped a lot to have other people that weren't them there just because it helped with feelings of being alone and that other people that didn't have to deal with this shit because of accident of birth actually give a shit, even if there is very little they can do. Solidarity and all that.

A few things if people do decide to go. Walk beside or behind the people in a metaphorical sense. Be aware that a thing that happens fairly commonly is white person comes in, feels like they're awesome for being so with it and solidarity forever and tries to take the lead. Just don't be that person they suck ass.

Realize that by the luck of your skin color you are less likely to be arrested. It looks like in this situation that they are and will be less discerning but even then you still have some advantage in this regard. This sucks of course and it shouldn't be this way but it's important to be aware of. At times however it can be used in a positive way because you can do things that are needed that may be harder for someone else who isn't white. (Like for instance I was able to get around the police lines and through the (white) looky loo crowd to get some needed medical supplies without being hassled).

Things will be messy and I mean that in the sense that although the people involved are identified as one big group and that they have come together there are a myrid of smaller groups and ways of thinking involved. Going in it's easy to imagine, one big, we are all one, kumbya situation. Those elements will be there, but it is romantic to think that it isn't fraught with internal conflict as people are trying to deal with an incredibly stressful situation and figure out how to keep it all together. This is perfectly okay and the way these things work in the real world. In the situation I was in we had white allies come in and get kinda jaded because it wasn't what they thought it should be like with everyone agreeing with each other and that there were people doing what seemed to be really stupid things. None of this takes away from the larger context and reasons this is happening. There just is no such thing as perfect protesters as there aren't perfect people of any color.

That's all I can think of for now. I'll post more if I think of it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [54 favorites]

NYC support rally planned for today.
posted by Mchelly at 5:26 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Antonio French released
posted by argonauta at 6:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Police in Los Angeles shoot mentally challenged unarmed black man. Per eyewitness he was shot in the back, while laying facedown on the ground.

I think we are on track for 1 police shooting of an unarmed person every day this year.
posted by mrbigmuscles at 6:12 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Jesus. Its like every police department in the nation saw what happened in Ferguson and said "yeah, this is exactly what we need, someone go shoot an unarmed black kid".
posted by sotonohito at 6:17 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Just drove to work and CBCs the Current did a piece on this. I didn't catch all of it but they talked to a woman named Amanda who is there, the militarization of US police and how the trend is also playing out to some extent in Canada.

What the Micheal Brown Shooting Says About the Militarization of American Police.

I think the piece is available or will be available in podcast.
posted by Jalliah at 6:20 AM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Jalliah, A great link, thanks for sharing. Sad that stories like that have to be written.
posted by Fizz at 6:23 AM on August 14, 2014

Jesus. Its like every police department in the nation saw what happened in Ferguson and said "yeah, this is exactly what we need, someone go shoot an unarmed black kid".

More like they've been shooting unarmed black kids on the regular for a while, it's (hopefully) now getting the attention it deserves.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

I just listened to the NPR Morning Edition coverage of Ferguson. Between their coverage of Gaza and now this police apologist crap that as much said those uppity darkies were asking for it by being so angry, I've lost all faith in them.
posted by dejah420 at 6:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

It's late summer and instead of playing kickball in the street or just enjoying the last few weeks of leisure before school winds up again, the children of Ferguson are afraid for their lives.

School was actually supposed to have started this week. Schools in the area have closed until next week because of this madness.
posted by Foosnark at 6:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Regarding Pogo's comment above citing a TPM article that kind of makes it seem like Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson was asking the general public for tips on what to do, 11:00 into the press conference, Jackson says:

"I'm being advised now by the Bureau of the Department of Justice. They have a number of measures that we can use to improve race relations, community relations. And I've told them - tell me what to do and we'll do it."

posted by cashman at 6:43 AM on August 14, 2014

I don't think I've seen this picture of police taking down an Al-Jazerra America camera crew posted yet.

I'm sorry I don't know who took the picture, it was posted on another board I ~~cheat on MeFi with read without attribution.~~
posted by bowmaniac at 6:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Texas: Anger brews over 'Open Carry' protest in Fifth Ward
posted by Artw at 6:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

How America’s Police Became an Army: The 1033 Program
posted by telstar at 6:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

(Believe me, there were some Body Count lyrics from 1992 that I wanted to bring up, since Tom Jackson almost literally used the "tell us what to do?!" phrase Ice-T uses in 'Body Count', but law enforcement being submissive to the ideas of the DOJ is a different thing then the general white community throwing up their hands and acting like there's no conceivable action to take after another killing of of black kid.)
posted by cashman at 6:50 AM on August 14, 2014

Bill Maher was talking about the 1033 program in light of Ferguson recently, and asked a good question - he asked the Tea Party folk "hey, you claim the thing you're against is the encroaching of government upon our Civil Liberties - the exact thing you're protesting is happening in Ferguson, Missouri right now, and where the hell are you?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:54 AM on August 14, 2014 [38 favorites]

The anti-WTO protests and subsequent were also key parts of the militarization of the cops, as was the end of the Cold War - not as much market abroad, time to manufacture products to sell at home.

"Hippie protests" and Ferguson-protests are both part of a....a logic circuit about how to delegitimize protest. "Hippie protests" (majority white, about something relatively abstract) aren't legitimate because we're all spoiled rich kids; it's okay to beat up hippies because "everyone knows" that we are so rich and privileged that even getting beaten or incurring years and tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs doesn't matter for us; and after all, what do we have to complain about, it's not our business if they're building an oil pipeline or whatever - it's not like it's our issue, right, why aren't the indigenous people or the working class people protesting? But then Ferguson-style protests are illegitimate precisely because it's people who are directly affected by something - they're angry and they're upset, and they are not respectable, and after all, they don't care about the common good, all they care about is themselves. If hippies break a window, we're bad because we're rich so we should respect property; if poor folks break a window, they're bad because they're greedy. Basically, when it's white middle class people protesting in solidarity, we deserve to get beat down because we're not "real" victims and so we don't have standing; but when "real" victims do protest, they deserve to get beat down because they're too upset and not distanced from the issue enough.

Obviously white middle class people don't face nearly the consequences for protesting that anyone else does - that's not what I'm talking about. It just occurred to me today on the way to work that each kind of protest is used rhetorically to delegitimize the other kind, so basically the answer to "well what kind of protester wouldn't deserve to get beaten down then?" is really "whatever kind of protester you are not".
posted by Frowner at 6:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [47 favorites]

I wonder how the "armed society is a polite society" nutbars would react if some organization started distributing handguns (legally, with all the right paperwork) in mostly black neighborhoods.
posted by bonehead at 6:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

where the hell are you

Their mom's said they had to come home right now immediately.
posted by elizardbits at 6:59 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people forget the second half of the expression "a few bad apples SPOIL THE BUNCH"
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:00 AM on August 14, 2014 [26 favorites]

basically the answer to "well what kind of protester wouldn't deserve to get beaten down then?" is really "whatever kind of protester you are not".

Divide and conquer. If both groups protested together it would be a lot scarier for the powers that be.
posted by empath at 7:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I'm going to be watching #NMOS14 and #NMOS tonight in hopes that everything stays peaceful. (NMOS = National Moment of Silence)

Milwaukee's gathering (rally? protest?) is out of the way in an overwhelmingly black and high crime neighborhood; but Chicago's is in a very prominent location (Daley Plaza). I find this unfortunate because Milwaukee would likely get much higher attendance if they held it downtown. Milwaukee is a racial tinderbox though, so it might actually be safer to hold it in a black neighborhood rather than a place white people actually care about.
posted by desjardins at 7:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

shortfuse: "FOX2NOW anchors: "…the most important thing is the safety of the officers, faced with increasingly heated protests nightly… said the mayor…". Infuriating."

To serve and protect... ourselves from facing any consequences in any way shape or form no matter how dastardly our deed.
posted by symbioid at 7:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I wonder how the "armed society is a polite society" nutbars would react if some organization started distributing handguns (legally, with all the right paperwork) in mostly black neighborhoods.

See: 1985 - Philadelphia - MOVE
posted by edgeways at 7:05 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Dead cops

Down on the street
Giving poor the heat
With their clubs and guns
Doin' it all for fun

Dead Cops

Big bad and blue
They're in the Klan too
Brutality is their sport
We'll put 'em to the torch"

MDC - "Dead Cops/America's So Straight" (youtube)
posted by symbioid at 7:05 AM on August 14, 2014

The police chief said a St. Louis County coroner's report has not been released due, in part, to concerns that releasing certain details--such as the exact number of gunshot wounds on Brown's body--could taint possible witness testimony.

Oh yes, I am sure that is the reason.
posted by emjaybee at 7:05 AM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

am I crazy or was there a comment deleted about Anonymous releasing the name of the officer? A news article was also deleted.
posted by desjardins at 7:09 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

am I crazy

No, I think I saw it too.
posted by aramaic at 7:12 AM on August 14, 2014

I saw it too. It was deleted, and I didn't have a chance to click on the article, but if it's anything like that "wife of police chief's Facebook post" thing, I don't want to see it. No fake outrage, please, we have plenty of legit outrage to deal with.

I do want that name released, though. I just want it confirmed as legit.
posted by palomar at 7:13 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

What does it take to make real change come of this? Obviously the system is broken in this area right to the top; but it's been broken before and fixed before.
posted by bonaldi at 7:13 AM on August 14, 2014

(apparently I'm going to use the word legit a lot today, sorry in advance)
posted by palomar at 7:13 AM on August 14, 2014

It was, yes. I think it runs up against the "don't dox" culture here on the blue.

I admit to following the link when it was live, and finding the name, and googling it to see if it got a hit for an address and phone number. And it did. And even though I had someone do that precise thing to me once, and had the guy use that info to call and ask me out, and even though I knew exactly how creepy and shitty a thing it is to do, I was really tempted to use that information for nefarious purposes....before my conscience stepped in and said "no". And so, if someone like me - arguably on the goodie-two-shoes side - was tempted to call the guy and talk smack, imagine what someone with a quieter conscience would do, and that's why the mods cut that, I think.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:14 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I have the comment up on my page still, the gist of it is a link to Anon's Twitter, on which they are now threatening to release various info about the guy at staggered intervals until the St. Louis PD responds to them. Here's hoping this isn't like the Reddit "find the Boston bombers!" thing where they wrongly accused a whole bunch of people Internet vigilante-style.
posted by zempf at 7:16 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest

“My hands are behind my back,” I said. “I’m not resisting. I’m not resisting.” At which point one officer said: “You’re resisting. Stop resisting.”
posted by FrauMaschine at 7:19 AM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

I'm so grateful no one died in Ferguson last night. I was really afraid I'd wake up to read that one person, whether cop or local, made one little mistake and then all those military weapons opened up and fifteen people were dead.

That could still happen today. I really, really hope the cops come to their senses and de-escalate the situation, keep their military equipment out of sight. Surely the folks in charge understand that the police are the provocation?
posted by Nelson at 7:20 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

Anonymous Threatens To Release Name Of Officer In Ferguson Police Shooting

A Twitter account belonging to Anonymous tweeted: “Jon Belmar, if you don’t release the officer’s name, we’re releasing your daughter’s info. You have one hour.”

Stay classy Anonymous!
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Surely the folks in charge understand that the police are the provocation?

Well, no. One problem seems to be that no one knows who's really "in charge"... Ferguson PD immediately turned things over to county police, but then also they've got a rotating schedule of who's overseeing the riot cops on a nightly basis... and then the county police chief was saying last night that he feels like they've shown very admirable restraint in their dealings. So... no, they don't seem to get that they're the fucking problem here.
posted by palomar at 7:22 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

bonehead: I wonder how the "armed society is a polite society" nutbars would react if some organization started distributing handguns (legally, with all the right paperwork) in mostly black neighborhoods.

Well, we actually have a pretty good historical precedent for this, as the NRA wasn't there to support the Black Panthers in the late 1960s, and, in fact, worked to craft gun control legislation in many states after Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act in 1967.

They later changed leadership, and with that leadership change came a more universal hard-line position against gun control, so I highly doubt they'd be out there suggesting the protestors be disarmed. Still, the NRA's messaging over the years has increasingly relied on appeals to racial anxiety, so I do wonder if the sight of thousands and thousands of "law-abiding citizens" (who happen to look like the people many of their members are arming themselves against) arming themselves would create some difficult conversations at NRA HQ.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

The husband was in despair about this and other things last night, and I was saying, look, we're in the rock-turning-over phase; seeing the horror that has been going on underneath all along. What happens now partially depends on if we turn away, or keep bearing witness.

"Bearing witness" seems weak and useless, but it isn't; bad regimes want to hide what they do. That's why they are blocking journalists; they apparently do think that other people knowing what is happening is a threat to them.

Sunshine isn't a magic weapon, but it is still powerful. Without Black Twitter and other folk making noise, we'd barely know this happened. But they shone a spotlight, and now lots of people are paying attention. We need to keep paying attention. And it doesn't all depend on well-meaning white people; the black voices on Twitter and elsewhere are louder than they've ever been, and they have decades of passion and anger fueling them. Follow their lead.

I don't know if that's very coherent, but that's where I am.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [44 favorites]

I'm glad Anonymous is threatening to dox kids now, because that's definitely really productive and unlikely to lead to further escalation.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Anonymous aren't helping anything here and should probably be ignored.
posted by Artw at 7:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

I'm glad Anonymous is threatening to dox kids now, because that's definitely really productive and unlikely to lead to further escalation.

You are absolutely correct. 100%

Still better than shooting them though.
posted by edgeways at 7:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The only thing that can stop a cop with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Tonycpsu, I can't link from my phone, but as a donor to the Armed Citizen Project, I can tell you some people are doing exactly that, if not specifically in Ferguson.
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on August 14, 2014

That's great, but the Armed Citizen Project isn't the NRA.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm glad Anonymous is threatening to dox kids now, because that's definitely really productive and unlikely to lead to further escalation.

In the interest of staying up to date, that happened yesterday, and Anonymous has since backed off of that due to twitter outcry.
posted by dysh at 7:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

The Toast today:

Updates From Ferguson, Missouri
Mallory Ortberg

We’re not, you know, normally a news site, but as much as I would like to bring you celebrations of minor Simpsons characters or jokes about dirtbag Yeats right now, the city of Ferguson, Missouri is under violent, racist, militarized police occupation...
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

Watched the events last night on my phone. This morning, while feeding my youngest son, my oldest and I were watching the Today show. They showed footage from one of the live streams (the radio one, KRAG or something, the one that was in nightvision) and I was talking to my oldest about what was happening (as much as you can explain what was happening to a four year old).

But, as I was trying to use the most general terms I could, he caught me off guard. He said "Those bad guys are shooting."
posted by stltony at 7:39 AM on August 14, 2014 [29 favorites]

Okay, I've read the article that telstar links to here, discussing how surplus army equipment was passed onto police forces throughout the country. Ostensibly this was to more adequately arm police forces engaged in "The War On Drugs" (tm).

Here's the thing though.

In the article, they make mention of one Connecticut community and what it has received through the program:

Police in Watertown, Connecticut, (population 22,514) recently acquired a mine-resistant, ambush-protected (MRAP) vehicle (sticker price: $733,000), designed to protect soldiers from roadside bombs, for $2,800. There has never been a landmine reported in Watertown, Connecticut.

Okay, I grew up in Connecticut. What's more, I grew up in the town in Connecticut that was arguably the one with the biggest drug problem - or at least it was one big enough that The Hartford Courant named it "Heroin Town" in a 2002 special report, and 60 Minutes did the same a year later. Watertown is clear across the state from my town and got a freakin' land-mine-resistant tank through this program - my town, however, got diddley-shit.

So this doesn't actually seem to be about arming the towns that have legit drug problems after all. So that begs the question - what exactly IS Program 1033 about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

The thing about vigilantism like Anonymous is that is raises an ethical question (is vigilantism justifiable) and a pragmatic question (how can we prevent vigilantism). The ethical question can be debated from many angles. The pragmatic question yields some more solid answers given that vigilantism tends to grow where legitimate law enforcement is dysfunctional or becomes criminal itself.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:41 AM on August 14, 2014

So this doesn't actually seem to be about arming the towns that have legit drug problems after all.

I was never under that impression.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Anonymous played a part in uncovering the Steubenville coverup, that's the one time I can think of they've done something useful in a case like this and not just made a bunch of noise.
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on August 14, 2014

Doxxing is wrong. Outing the person we think is the perpetrator denies everyone justice.
It's 'oxbow justice'. Fuck that shit.
Force the police to tell the truth via the appropriate channels.
When we start skipping steps we're worse than the cops.
posted by Pudhoho at 7:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

That was kind of my point, shakespeherian.....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on August 14, 2014

Why was there a "War on Drugs" is one of triode questions like "why the fuck would anyone think the IDF have anything of use to teach law enforcement" - it's all about bombastic blowhards showing off and looking "hardline" and fuck all to do with reality.
posted by Artw at 7:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Sir, there are protesters gathering. They are saying that they believe one of our officers unnecessarily escalated a situation that should have been resolved peacefully."

"FIRE UP THE TANKS! GET THE TEAR GAS CANNONS! NO ONE ACCUSES US OF UNNECESSARY ESCALATION!"
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [72 favorites]

I'm pondering how to combat the public misconception in Feguson. Like many of you, what I'm seeing is a lot of people who are blaming the residents, not the overblown police response. A lot of it seems to be the preconceived notion of "Black people doing scary/self harmful things again." Which got me wondering if a viral blitz of a collection of images and tweets from the last few nights would be helpful. The image of what a rubber bullet really does got me thinking.

Is this just facile? I was thinking Buzzfeed style listicle. Not, it doesn't tell the full story, but maybe it can get eyeballs on it from people who might otherwise run with their pre- conceived predjudices.

I can't write for shit, especially in a way that might approach both the humor and balance needed to make it gain traction, but would be happy to start gathering images. If this isn't the worst idea ever, and someone wants to work with me on it, memail me.

I feel silly posting this, but I just want to DO something, and maybe knowledge can help with the tide of public opinion.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

When we start skipping steps we're worse than the cops.

I don't recall Anonymous shooting any unarmed kids.

Something can be a bad idea or an unjustifiable action without our needing to argue its moral equivalence to a worse thing.
posted by kewb at 7:49 AM on August 14, 2014 [20 favorites]

Google Doc with list of cities and locations for today's National Moment of Silence for Victims of Police Brutality.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

The governor is withdrawing St Louis Police from Ferguson, according to various reports.
posted by empath at 7:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

Various tweets are claiming Governor Nixon is about to remove the STL County police from duty in Ferguson.

Jonathan Allen of Bloomberg seems like the most reputable source on this.
posted by almostmanda at 7:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

[insert clever name here] I NEVER post political stuff on Facebook, but I just shared an article about this exactly because there is so much misrepresentation. What I really wanted to find was a collection of photos that showed the police response to obviously peaceful protesters. If you or someone makes that list, share it with us.
posted by chatongriffes at 7:53 AM on August 14, 2014

Also, winna - I doubt it's a prearranged, ie agent provocateur signal. I think it's more likely that if people are militarizing cops, they're also militarizing their training and response doctrine to respond more quickly.
posted by corb at 7:53 AM on August 14, 2014

Police departments are less about protecting and serving the public and more about playing army man at home. How did we get to the point where it's acceptable for cops to wear camouflage? It's designed to conceal. It's a uniform for war. Its completely counter to the message you want to present as a police force. You want to be open, transparent, helpful, and very visible when needed. This shit is just some special forces fantasy camp.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:53 AM on August 14, 2014 [51 favorites]

Google Doc with list of cities and locations for today's National Moment of Silence for Victims of Police Brutality.

There's one three blocks away from my house.

...Mefi meetup in Bed-Stuy, anybody?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:54 AM on August 14, 2014

Anon has released a name and a screenshot of his Facebook page. I won't link it here but you can find it easily in #ferguson.

Will be interesting to see if this is really the guy since he updated his profile on the 12th with a current photo. No visible sign of facial injury in the photo.
posted by honestcoyote at 7:55 AM on August 14, 2014

I'm pondering how to combat the public misconception in Feguson.

I've noticed a couple people changed their tune from "black people should remain peaceful and stop destroying their own communities with rioting and looting" to "the police have gone way too far."

The difference was when they learned about reporters and local politicians being tear-gassed and arrested.

Racism or a sort of racism-classism perhaps, but there it is.
posted by Foosnark at 7:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

But, as I was trying to use the most general terms I could, he caught me off guard. He said "Those bad guys are shooting."

This reminded me of watching footage of the Occupy Wall Street protests, and my then almost-four year old commenting, "those policemen are very angry, and they don't like brown people."
posted by ambrosia at 7:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

So that begs the question - what exactly IS Program 1033 about?

This (sympathetic to police) article has a little more info:

Police chiefs, meanwhile, say the program has helped them to work around budget constraints, modernize their departments and provide their officers with the tools they need to confront the dangers of their job.

"There's been a little bit of hype with departments getting M16s, MRAPs, that type of stuff," said Walkerton Police Chief Matthew Schalliol. "It's not for the purpose of becoming more militarized. It's for the purpose of being prepared for any type of scenario that could come our way."

In Walkerton, a town with a population of slightly more than 2,000, the police department got two Humvees worth nearly $40,000 each, five night-vision sights worth more than $4,000 each and scores of ammunition magazines and combat-oriented accessories in the past two years alone, according to data provided by the state, which coordinates the program.

Others, such as the Elkhart and Goshen police departments, obtained dozens of military rifles. In North Liberty, a town of 1,896, the stockpile includes Humvees, combat knives, rifles, dozens of ammunition magazines -- even a pair of landmine detectors.

Roseland, the town of 630 that encompasses roughly a square mile between Notre Dame and Cleveland Road, also got a Humvee, and so did Bourbon, a town of 1,810 in eastern Marshall County.

Yet while the combat gear has drawn the most scrutiny, small-town police chiefs have largely used the program to outfit their departments with general office and investigative items such as computers, printers and digital cameras, often acquiring thousands of dollars worth of equipment for free, except for shipping and handling.

The program allowed North Liberty town Marshal Mike Sawdon, who oversees just two full-time officers, to outfit his squad cars with laptops and build a gym -- complete with elliptical machines, treadmills and weights -- in the basement of the police station.

Schalliol, the Walkerton police chief, estimated that at least 70 percent of the office equipment at the town's police station, including every computer and monitor, was acquired through the 1033 program.

"If we didn't have this program, there's a good chance we'd still be in the dark ages, so to speak," he said.

And some of the military gear can be repurposed, Sawdon said, pointing out that his department could use the landmine detectors to find weapons, shell casings or other metallic evidence at crime scenes. Police said the Humvees can be used to track fleeing suspects into remote areas or even as ambulances during harsh weather conditions that pose challenges to other vehicles.

The heaviest weapons and vehicles, meanwhile, see use only on rare occasions, Mishawaka Police Chief Ken Witkowski said. In the two months since the Mishawaka Police Department unveiled the MRAP -- which will be used by the St. Joseph County Metro SWAT Team -- the vehicle has not been deployed for anything other than training exercises.

The clusterfuck of a nightmare that is the War on Drugs is the gift that just keeps on giving, it seems.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

What a colossal failure on the part of the police department.

Even under the best of circumstances there will be massive mistakes, but you don't cover them up then lash out at an angry community because of your mistakes.
posted by edgeways at 7:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I'm fine with annoyance measures like doxing, so long as they stay non-physical. It's counter productive if you distract everyone with bad information though.

And obviously it must remain about annoying them through phone calls, hacks, and letters. If you're actually inciting folks to commit physical crimes then you've crossed that line from unattributable to attributable threat that prevents your views from being expressed in a civil solution.

I am absolutely opposed to doxxing because you cannot anticipate whether or not physical crimes will be perpetrated once you let loose the dogs of the internet and because doxxing is far too often some idiot with the google who picks someone with a similar name. Just because your name is Joyne Smithe you shouldn't be hounded for the purported crimes of someone named John Smith.

Also, winna - I doubt it's a prearranged, ie agent provocateur signal. I think it's more likely that if people are militarizing cops, they're also militarizing their training and response doctrine to respond more quickly.

I dunno, corb, I've had enough experience with protests that I know that agent provocateurs are absolutely a common tactic. But even if it wasn't, I think everyone can agree that cops shouldn't be militarized to the point they hair-trigger fire tear gas at crowds of the people who pay their salaries.
posted by winna at 8:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

KSDK has an interview with Alderman French after his release from custody this morning.
posted by nangar at 8:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Land Of The Free And Home Of The Brave
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

I dunno, corb, I've had enough experience with protests that I know that agent provocateurs are absolutely a common tactic.

Maybe a Man Who Was Thursday-type situation.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:04 AM on August 14, 2014

The news reports this morning have a decidedly different tone to them. Even Fox(!!) are coming down against the police.

Shockingly, assaulting journalists is bad for PR.
posted by schmod at 8:05 AM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

St Louis Post Dispatch police reporter tweets that police say Anonymous doxed the wrong guy.
posted by Andrew Galarneau at 8:08 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I don't understand why they just don't release this person's name already. I can't imagine he and his family haven't already been taken somewhere else.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't recall Anonymous shooting any unarmed kids.

Doxxing is the equivalent of a person in a Lynch mob yelling: "There they are! Get 'em!" It's an act of violence.
posted by bonehead at 8:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

I would not be surprised at all if Anon fucks this up.

Will be interesting to see if this is really the guy since he updated his profile on the 12th with a current photo. No visible sign of facial injury in the photo.

This means nothing; it matters when the photo was taken. I've often updated my profile with pictures that are days/weeks/months old. If I had a big bruise/cut on my face, I sure wouldn't update it to that.

I'm definitely not defending anyone, I just don't like to jump to conclusions. If you have the EXIF data, please post it.
posted by desjardins at 8:12 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I don't understand why they just don't release this person's name already.

They say they are concerned for his safety. I guess they don't have enough cops to protect him ? Maybe the guns are too small.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:12 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

They say they are concerned for his safety. I guess they don't have enough cops to protect him? Maybe the guns are too small.

It really doesn't matter where they move him to. There are unarmed teens walking the streets everywhere. No place is safe.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:16 AM on August 14, 2014 [69 favorites]

They say they are concerned for his safety. I guess they don't have enough cops to protect him ? Maybe the guns are too small.

AFAIK 100% of the recent murders in Ferguson were committed by police.
posted by empath at 8:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [22 favorites]

Heck, I know where they can find a whole lot of guns - some of them shoot tear gas, though, is that okay?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

How on earth did this fool Crump get involved in this. Please tell me he won't in any way be involved in any case that gets brought against this officer. Please.
posted by cashman at 8:19 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Shockingly, assaulting journalists is bad for PR.

It's a shame that lately it seems like it's a relief when the cops start attacking targets that are not minorities because that's when you know people will start taking it seriously.
posted by winna at 8:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [30 favorites]

I just joined Twitter to follow this and the difference between coverage on TV and on social media is astounding.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:22 AM on August 14, 2014 [22 favorites]

Apparently Obama is going to make a statement at 12:15.
posted by cashman at 8:23 AM on August 14, 2014

Also: I assume people are tweeting at The President and White House accounts? Can I see those tweets? And the President's team have GOT to be following social media and what's going down, right?

There has got to be a statement from the Pres. soon.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:23 AM on August 14, 2014

New Yorker: What I Saw in Ferguson by Jelani Cobb. "Nothing that happened in Ferguson, Missouri, on the fourth night since Michael Brown died at the hands of a police officer there, dispelled the notion that this is a place where law enforcement is capable of gross overreaction."
posted by Nelson at 8:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

(Oh jinx cashman - buy, coke, me, etc.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The governor is withdrawing St Louis Police from Ferguson, according to various reports.

This is pretty much the first thing I have seen since Sunday that gives me some cause for cautious optimism.
posted by Foosnark at 8:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Prediction: Obama will ask the residents to stay calm, and will promise to work with authorities to figure things out. He will not say anything that can be interpreted as criticism of the police response.
posted by suelac at 8:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

This seems to be pretty good confirmation that Nixon is gonna pull STPD out of Ferguson.
posted by TheTingTangTong at 8:25 AM on August 14, 2014

I'm fine with annoyance measures like doxing, so long as they stay non-physical. It's counter productive if you distract everyone with bad information though.

I'm flashing back to a little more than a year ago when Reddit tried to "crowdsource" the manhunt for the Boston Bombers and wound up provoking some suicides, due to wrongful accusations. In the end, the Boston police were forced to release their information prematurely to stem the witch hunt that Reddit had provoked, which then resulted in the car chase, the firefight with the Tsarnaev's, the lockdown, and our first mainstream images of a militarized police force with tanks and snipers looking for one wounded boy.

Jesus, what a year that's been.
posted by bl1nk at 8:26 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Coughs delicately
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on August 14, 2014 [36 favorites]

@BrianHeff : Barriers are being set into place outside the #Ferguson QuickTrip this morning. News trucks behind it all.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:26 AM on August 14, 2014

Apparently Obama is going to make a statement at 12:15.

It better be blistering. It won't be, I know, but...where's the guy who said "fuck it" and delivered "A More Perfect Union" when he was under attack and people were telling him not to stick his neck out??

I don't care if there is nothing concrete he can do (calling in the Nat'l Guard, etc), he needs to step up to the mike on this one and use whatever tools he has.
posted by sallybrown at 8:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Confirmed that the President will make a statement at 12:15 Eastern (in 45 minutes).
posted by cashman at 8:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Because in this situation, being half-cocked with the news is a bad idea - I want to own my own instance of going off half-cocked.

After claiming that my hometown did not receive an MRAP through the 1033 program, as I've claimed here, I've since learned that my home town HAS received an MRAP.

I still remain dubious as to whether the program exists to fight The War On Drugs (tm), but I wanted to correct that mistake.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Do we know that the President's statement is about Ferguson and not Iraq? Today is the 60 day deadline for mandatory Congressional approval of ongoing presence there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 AM on August 14, 2014

empath: "Maybe the guns are too small..."

Why do you think they need all those MRAPs?!
posted by symbioid at 8:29 AM on August 14, 2014

I don't care if there is nothing concrete he can do (calling in the Nat'l Guard, etc), he needs to step up to the mike on this one and use whatever tools he has

He could call in the National Guard if he wanted to.
posted by desjardins at 8:31 AM on August 14, 2014

Do we know that the President's statement is about Ferguson and not Iraq? Today is the 60 day deadline for mandatory Congressional approval of ongoing presence there.

From the information I saw, there are suppositions that both topics will be addressed.
posted by cashman at 8:31 AM on August 14, 2014

The argument against outspoken presidential statements on this not backed by the ability to actually do anything would be this shit.
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on August 14, 2014

Eric Schultz says both topics will be covered.
posted by donnagirl at 8:33 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

He could call in the National Guard if he wanted to.

That's Jay Nixon's job.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

I guess this shouldn't surprise me but: KKK Raising Money for Police Officer who Shot African-American Teen.

While the article has little new information, I did find this darkly humorous; "Email requests to Imperial Wizard Chuck Murray on Wednesday were not answered." I would think emails from Southern Poverty Law Center were not going to get answered by a Klan wizard, no.
posted by emjaybee at 8:34 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

> I don't care if there is nothing concrete he can do (calling in the Nat'l Guard, etc), he needs to step up to the mike on this one and use whatever tools he has.

I think the FBI and the DOJ count as tools.
posted by nangar at 8:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

. @GovJayNixon just confirmed that the State Police & Federal Authorities are going to relieve St. Louis County PD of their duties here. - @ShaunKing
posted by Happy Dave at 8:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

'Imperial Wizard Chuck Murray' has got to be in some Pynchon book or other.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

If that cop has even one tiny ounce of decency in his body, hearing that the KKK is supporting him and raising money for him should make him feel like absolute shit.

But then I live in a dream world where people actually feel terrible after they murder an unarmed teenager. Sigh.
posted by palomar at 8:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Several news reports are stating as fact that molotov cocktails were thrown by protestors last night. Is that documented anywhere reputable? It certainly is plausible, either violent angry protestors or else agents provocateurs. Or it could all be made up; many folks are misinterpreting this photo of tear gas being thrown back as evidence of molotovs.

Protests like this are dangerous when either side escalates. Snipers and armored vehicles, throwing bottles, doxxing the children of police officials, assaulting journalists.. These are all escalations. It's frightening.
posted by Nelson at 8:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I look forward to seeing the official accounting of the total number of tear gas canisters, flash bangs, smoke bombs, rubber bullets (etc.) that these forces have used to date on civilians in Ferguson. Surely they are required to keep a careful record of how much ammunition* has gone into the field vs. what has come back. I want to see it. Now.

*or "crowd calming marshmallows," I don't care what they call it
posted by argonauta at 8:42 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Officer Friendly
posted by edgeways at 8:42 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

Not Just Ferguson: 11 Eye-Opening Facts About America’s Militarized Police Forces

...though I would call it "hair-raising" or "nightmare-inducing" more than "eye-opening," but that's just me.
posted by scody at 8:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Video of the cops tear gassing the Al Jazeera news crew and trying to dismantle or destroy their equipment.
posted by dejah420 at 8:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

BREAKING: Rep. Clay Says St. Louis County Police to be Relieved of Duty #Ferguson

I'd be careful driving around St. Louis for a while. It appears there could be a large surplus of angry traffic police in the area.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:45 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Several news reports are stating as fact that molotov cocktails were thrown by protestors last night. Is that documented anywhere reputable?

Watching the livestream last night, two of the guys on one of them (the one with Mike Biggs or whoever from infowars) were saying that molotov cocktails were thrown onto the top of a car wash and that car wash was on fire, and the police didn't seem to be worried about putting it out. There was nothing about any of those being thrown in the direction of police, from that video. On that same livestream there was a bottle that was thrown by a single person, that lead to the police staring their "this is no longer peaceful, leave the area immediately or be subject to arrest" loudspeaker announcements.

Notably, the two guys called those people stupid or knuckleheads or the like, and it seemed like the majority of people were just out there, and at times, hands raised in the air like Michael Brown.
posted by cashman at 8:46 AM on August 14, 2014

Missouri's Case.net indicates that someone with the name Anonymous gave out was served a summons at the St. Ann Police Department in 2007.
posted by almostmanda at 8:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

If you're interested in the topic of police militarization then you can do a lot worse than Radley Balko's Rise of the Warrior Cop. And he is one of the libertarian voices who has been vocal about this before and during the Ferguson unrest, which is a very fair "where are they?" question raised above.
posted by phearlez at 8:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Veterans on Ferguson

"As someone who studies policing in conflict, what's going on Ferguson isn't just immoral and probably unconstitutional, it's ineffective."

"our ROE regarding who we could point weapons at in Afghanistan was more restrictive than cops in MO."

"we contained riots in Baghdad next to mosques with less violence than the police are employing."

"A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up."
posted by Foosnark at 8:49 AM on August 14, 2014 [44 favorites]

dejah420, thank you for that footage. Absolutely horrifying and unconstitutional.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:50 AM on August 14, 2014

"As someone who studies policing in conflict, what's going on Ferguson isn't just immoral and probably unconstitutional, it's ineffective."

This is the most striking thing to me about the response in Ferguson. The authorities so clearly want the situation to end, but they just don't have any idea how to make that happen. Like they've forgotten that they can't just make this go away with screaming and guns. It's dangerous and unconstitutional and terrifying, but it's also petulant and ineffective.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:52 AM on August 14, 2014 [25 favorites]

Re: Molotov cocktails

From St Louis Post-Dispatch photo gallery from last night: "Protesters attempt to light molotov cocktails to throw at police right before the tear gas was fired by police Wednesday, Aug. 13, 2014. The protesters were unsuccessful in lighting the molotov cocktails." Another photo in gallery is protester throwing a bottle.
posted by Andrew Galarneau at 8:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Obama performs the Safety Dance in 15 minutes.
posted by Pudhoho at 9:03 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Some good local perspective For the sake of Michael Brown
posted by postel's law at 9:03 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The first I heard about this incident, I got the police version. I thought that it was messed up, but that was my first entry into the situation. Then as I heard multiple (3) witness accounts, people interviewed on the scene by different news agencies, and seeming to be completely independent of one another, it just made me want the investigation to move along and conclude that the police version of events was flawed. Well that reddit feed started up again and linked yet another eyewitness account. 27-year-old Tiffany Mitchell (video):

“As I was coming around, I heard the tires squeaking on the truck, and as I get closer, I see them tussling through the window. The kid was pulling off and the cop was pulling in,” Mitchell said.

Mitchell told News 4 she saw a door close on a police car. An officer was inside and Brown, Jr. was on the outside. She said the two were arm wrestling through the car window. Mitchell said she then tried to pull out her phone to record. Shots then rang out.

“It just didn’t look right for them to be arm wrestling,” Mitchell said. “The first gun shot came from the window, so I just started getting out of the way.”

According to Mitchell, Brown, Jr, began to run away after the first shot was fired.

“After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid’s body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down,” Mitchell said.

Looking at the police vehicle in the video, (and I thought it was a car, but it's an suv, clearly), and given the multiple eyewitness accounts, I just can't imagine how the police version of events does anything. It doesn't make sense to me.

Brown is walking down the street. The officer yells what he yells (get the fuck on the sidewalk), pulls off and then comes back, obviously mad and confrontational. The go for the gun thing seems preposterous. I'm supposed to believe that Brown was somehow going to get close enough to reach in through the window, past the officer, and so forth?

That seems ridiculous. And even that is irrelevant because from all accounts, Brown got away from the officer, and moved away from the vehicle, and that's when the officer shot him multiple times.

That happened Saturday. Sunday passed. Monday passed. Tuesday passed. Wednesday passed. It's Thursday. If charges aren't brought by the end of the month and there is still no plausible information that explains this situation, then I'm at a loss for how to keep reassuring my family members who are terrified that something is going to happen to me.
posted by cashman at 9:03 AM on August 14, 2014 [31 favorites]

From postel's law's link: . The “look at us, we are on our way back” slogans boasted by chambers of commerce say nothing about those who have been treated as invisible or dispensable.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:06 AM on August 14, 2014

“After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid’s body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down,” Mitchell said.

Chilling. What the hell.
posted by sweetkid at 9:07 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

About the molotov cocktails - eh, even in the midst of peaceful protests you run the risk of getting a couple knuckleheads. I was part of the United For Peace And Justice protest march during the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York, and there was a Black Bloc group with a huge green dragon puppet about 20 feet behind me in the crowd - and at one point they suddenly lit the thing on fire and caused a whole panic stampede (and I had to drag one of my friends past a bunch of riot cops and flee to take shelter in the doorway of Macys for about ten minutes). There are always a couple nutballs like that.

However, the difference here is that the UFPJ march was seen as being "largely peaceful"; the impression people got was that "oh, it was fine except for those few jerks". But in Ferguson, everyone's looking at the same percentage of "few jerks" and saying "oh, they're a representative sample".

No explanation for that, it was just something I noticed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:08 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

You know it's bad when members of the military are saying, and I paraphrase, "Don't call these fools militarized—the actual military is both more professional and more compassionate, and has less firepower and body armor."

Re: Godwinning, well...I unintentionally Godwinned a thread on Facebook last night, actually, and I think the fascist behavior of the local police forces involved in Ferguson has justified that comparison. Here's my thing: I'm deeply concerned for the safety of everyone I know in Ferguson and Florissant, especially the people who, like a coworker's grandfather and several coworkers' parents, live right off the main drag. But my concern doesn't trump people's rights—'cause that's the whole point here, to me. That's why on Facebook, I Godwinned a thread by bringing up that old saw about the Nazis, that poem "First they came..."

The police in Ferguson have been behaving like the textbook definition of fascists. And that poem is so apropos right now because so many people believe the rights of the people who are protesting don't matter, or that it's inconvenient to insist on their rights being observed when our friends, family, and property in Ferguson and Florissant are potentially in danger. But that's exactly when it matters that their rights are observed—if we don't uphold citizens' most basic rights in troubled times, nothing that our nation is built upon can continue to stand.

And for anyone who says this isn't about Nazism specifically, well, sure—but Nazism itself didn't come about in a day, and the point is that it's a form of fascism based on racist beliefs. Now, there's also plenty of fascism out there that doesn't stem from a specific set of beliefs about race superiority—but the officers telling people "All you f–king animals, bring it" or "We're dealing with 4,000 animals in there, and you want to give me attitude?" aren't really helping combat the perception that they view blacks as less than human.

That's what this is about, and that's why people are protesting to begin with—that some people's lives and perspectives are so clearly valued over others'.
posted by limeonaire at 9:13 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Video of the cops tear gassing the Al Jazeera news crew and trying to dismantle or destroy their equipment.

When I was watching MSNBC last night, they had a local reporter on who was describing that exact incident, but there wasn't yet any video available. I had envisioned the Al Jazeera camera crew getting tear gassed in an incidental way - that is, I didn't think they had been specifically targeted. It's clear in this video that they were, since they're standing on the sidewalk near their vehicle, not roaming through a crowd, and the canister was fired directly at them.

What do we do when they know the whole world is watching and they clearly don't care?
posted by rtha at 9:17 AM on August 14, 2014 [37 favorites]

Shabez Kwame has some pictures of the scary scary protesters that the snipers and police in riot gear are trying to get to disperse.

Twitter user @JoiedeVar put one of those pictures next to one from 1968.
posted by straw at 9:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

Brown is walking down the street. The officer yells what he yells (get the fuck on the sidewalk), pulls off and then comes back, obviously mad and confrontational. The go for the gun thing seems preposterous. I'm supposed to believe that Brown was somehow going to get close enough to reach in through the window, past the officer, and so forth?

There are potential arguments for the first shot. All eyewitnesses seem to agree that the police officer and Brown were fighting/wrestling/tussling/what have you, albeit through the window. What I suspect happened is that the cop grabbed the kid, and the kid, instead of remembering that any finger on a police officer is met with more force, tried to get away. And the policeman might have thought "he could go for my gun" though that depends on where he was keeping his gun - if holstered while sitting, that would take a whole lot of reaching, but if he had it somewhere stupid, I could maybe see it - especially with how quickly he got to it.

However, there's no fucking reason to shoot him again. I can't even comprehend why you would do that.
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on August 14, 2014

rtha: Here's the horrifying thing, this is how they act when they DO know the whole world is watching. Now imagine how they act when it isn't.
posted by sotonohito at 9:19 AM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

Live stream from POTUS working for anyone?
posted by desuetude at 9:21 AM on August 14, 2014

the actual military is both more professional and more compassionate

Yes, exactly. The thing that strikes me most about the constant comparison to the military is that so many of these vets who come home having seen and likely participated in things that are haunting them, they end up actually dying from it, whether slowly via substance abuse or just outright suicide. They feel deep emotional anguish over the things that happened and have significant difficulties adjusting to their former lives. And yet I don't recall seeing a lot of news stories about cops feeling bad about enthusiastically brutalizing the citizens they are meant to be protecting, and I feel like they're not just missing out on training on how to use these new weapons and tactics effectively, I feel like they're missing out on some kind of basic humanity.

Obviously no country's military is perfect and blameless, least of all the US'. But I think we see a lot more remorse and soul searching and genuine regret from vets than we do from cops.
posted by elizardbits at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014 [31 favorites]

Here? I think he's late.
posted by schmod at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014

Live stream from POTUS working for anyone?

I've got nothing yet...
posted by neitherly at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014

Delayed to 12:30 ET.
posted by shortfuse at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014

However, there's no fucking reason to shoot him again. I can't even comprehend why you would do that.

Personally, the fact that there was no reason for the second and third and subsequent shots leads me to consider any arguments for the first one to be suspect as well. But that's just me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014 [33 favorites]

He's late.
posted by PMdixon at 9:22 AM on August 14, 2014

I managed to get the c-span stream, it's an empty podium right now.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:23 AM on August 14, 2014

desuetude, not sure how delayed they are.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:23 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"it's an empty podium right now."

How appropriate!
posted by Tevin at 9:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

What do we do when they know the whole world is watching and they clearly don't care?

Continue our struggle for equality. Eventually we will prevail.
posted by Pudhoho at 9:26 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Personally, the fact that there was no reason for the second and third and subsequent shots leads me to consider any arguments for the first one to be suspect as well. But that's just me.

Well, yes, but I'm saying, even giving the utmost benefit of the doubt and sympathy there is no reason for those, which is an unassailable moral high ground and not subjective.
posted by corb at 9:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

The heavy irony of recent vets commenting on the lack of actual policing and crowd control skills from the actual police is that after the initial invasion (both Iraq and Afghanistan), we basically asked the soldiers to be police, and they rightfully pointed out that we had not trained them to be police; being police and being soldiers are different - different goals, different tactics, different training.
posted by rtha at 9:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

He's late.

Seems to be the man's MO recently. I like measured and reasoned responses to urgent issues as much as anyone, but that's very different from letting events run their course, or dithering until a crisis boils over into catastrophe as it has here.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I'm saying that when you consider the entire incident, the "arguments" for the first shot also come across sounding like total bullshit excuses from a guy trying not to get in trouble.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Shabez Kwame has some pictures of the scary scary protesters that the snipers and police in riot gear are trying to get to disperse.

The visuals from the protest are moving. One sign seems to sum it up:

You Are In Trouble

posted by audi alteram partem at 9:31 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

"We're having a difficult time, especially at night, discerning between those who wish to peacefully assemble and lawfully protest and those who wish to infiltrate and hide among the people who wish to demonstrate," Ferguson Mayor James Knowles told msnbc, adding that police have shown up to vigils and protests in SWAT trucks with their weapons drawn because "what your cameras aren't showing is gunfire is erupting all around."

I don't believe him. Has anyone on the ground confirmed anything like this?

For that matter, has anyone substantiated the oft-repeated claim that Molotov cocktails were actually lighted and thrown by protesters?
posted by desuetude at 9:32 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Slap*Happy, I give POTUS a little leniency here. Nothing that he's going to say can't wait 15 minutes if he needs to get everything in order before he speaks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:33 AM on August 14, 2014

Slap*Happy, I give POTUS a little leniency here. Nothing that he's going to say can't wait 15 minutes if he needs to get everything in order before he speaks.

I think people are talking about him being late in a sarcastic way. As in, he is several days late in responding to this.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

I desperately want another cup of coffee, and I know that as soon as I go to get one Obama will start.
posted by rtha at 9:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, Rand Paul just released a pretty good op-ed on this. Politically, this is VERY interesting. He's maybe one of 2 slightly viable GOP contenders right now.

For once, "big government" is actually a really good answer to what the problem is.

Also, holy shit this quote from a Republican: "Anyone who thinks that race does not still, even if inadvertently, skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. Our prisons are full of black and brown men and women who are serving inappropriately long and harsh sentences for non-violent mistakes in their youth."
posted by lattiboy at 9:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [29 favorites]

showbiz_liz, granted. Perhaps he wanted to defer to the governor of Missouri.

*crickets*
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

dithering until a crisis boils over into catastrophe as it has here.

The thing is, handling protests and such isn't rocket science. That the STL PD and whatever seem to be working from a 1958 Selma AL copy of the handbook seems to be the problem.

I think both the Governor and the President are as shocked as we are that all this hamfisted moronitude from the white people in charge seems to continue day after day. Hell, even the Cops in Sanford FL did a better job.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:36 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I'm saying that when you consider the entire incident, the "arguments" for the first shot also come across sounding like total bullshit excuses from a guy trying not to get in trouble.

I think it's fair to point out that even if you take all the plausible stuff that the cop alleges at face value, he still shot a fleeing unarmed kid in the back.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [21 favorites]

"what your cameras aren't showing is gunfire is erupting all around."

"And to make sure that the violence perpetuated by ordinary citizens is fully documented, we have banned news helicopters and detained on-site journalists....wait, is this right? That doesn't sound right. Did I get the wrong notes? What's happening here exactly?"
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

But in Ferguson, everyone's looking at the same percentage of "few jerks" and saying "oh, they're a representative sample".

No explanation for that, it was just something I noticed.

Unmarked people are always individuals. Marked people are representatives of their group.

/NOT MARK-IST
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

It's worth noting that 9 looters have been named and charged, but Brown's shooter is still uncharged, unnamed.
posted by edgeways at 9:38 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

"what your cameras aren't showing is gunfire is erupting all around."

I know I'm not the only one following the Twitter accounts of people on the ground at multiple locations in Ferguson, or the only one who has watched multiple livestreams from last night. I have not heard of one single gunshot at all, much less "gunfire erupting all around."

That is the single-most bullshit statement I've seen so far in this whole debacle.
posted by komara at 9:38 AM on August 14, 2014 [35 favorites]

Matt Pearce ‏@mattdpearce

At a community meaning with black leaders expressing concern over white out-of-towners who have started dumpster fires, had Molotovs.

One pastor, on Anonymous/anarchists in Ferguson: "They have hijacked the movement. ... They're not interested in what we're interested in."

Another community leader defends Anonymous but blasts white anarchists, who are apparently very much unwelcome here.

posted by desjardins at 9:38 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Missouri state sen.: Gov. Jay Nixon is ‘a coward’
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on August 14, 2014

For once, "big government" is actually a really good answer to what the problem is.

I don't see how that's true. One can have big government and still avoid giving military-grade weapons to the police. One can (hopefully someday) have big government without making it a capital offense to be black while walking down the street.
posted by sallybrown at 9:39 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

15 minutes I can wait. The better part of a week for the first African American president to address a riot of the oppressed and the racist police insurrection that followed? That I'm having problems with.

(I also love how when the Green Berets finally got to the Yezeedi refuge in the mountains to organize the evac, the refugees were mostly gone. "They all escaped" is the line we're currently being fed. Take that with as big a grain of salt as you need.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:40 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

What the world needs now is Sam Vimes
posted by edgeways at 9:40 AM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

I don't see how that's true. One can have big government and still avoid giving military-grade weapons to the police. One can (hopefully someday) have big government without making it a capital offense to be black while walking down the street.

That was kind of tongue-in-cheek on my part, it came off wrong.

I am a huge proponent of more and better government, but in this particular instance surplus military equipment from our criminally bloated defense budget enables bullshit like this to happen.
posted by lattiboy at 9:41 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

@juliebosman is covering Jay Nixon's speech at a church. "It has been a deeply challenging week in a lot of ways..."
posted by desjardins at 9:41 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Personally, the fact that there was no reason for the second and third and subsequent shots leads me to consider any arguments for the first one to be suspect as well. But that's just me.

This seems typical of police, where they make a mistake or do something wrong, and commit to a course of action no matter what the consequences. The video of the Seattle security guard shows a similar mentality, where he decided to detain someone, and reversing that decision or changing from that course of action is not even a choice. Is it that doing so is so threatening to their sense of authority or power? Or is this how cops cover their asses? Obviously, we don't know exactly what happened when that cop killed Michael Brown, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that that first shot committed that cop, in his mind, to following through to the end.
posted by AceRock at 9:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Oh for God's sake, the freakin' Black blocs are at it again...

Yo dudes that is not helping
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also, holy shit this quote from a Republican: "Anyone who thinks that race does not still, even if inadvertently, skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. Our prisons are full of black and brown men and women who are serving inappropriately long and harsh sentences for non-violent mistakes in their youth."

The man also believes the Civil Rights Act was misguided, so you'll excuse me if I don't think his occasional flashes of compassion mean he's fit for his current office, let alone a higher one.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

will you please go get your coffee so this speech can start
posted by bq at 9:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

earlier: So that begs the question - what exactly IS Program 1033 about?

The DoD can have a hard time of disposing equpiment. After all, it's not like there's a huge market for lightly-used tanks. And there are all sorts of restrictions on what sorts of gear can be exported, and to where.

Next, it can be really hard to justify new purchases, if you have all this lightly-used gear laying around. Since Congress treats DoD procurement like a jobs program, there has to be a secondary market for older vehicles, like these MRAPs. That way, DoD can slough them off, justify new purchases, and Congress can keep the money flowing to their districts.

It's definately not a scam, though. I doubt the people involved are conciously engaged in constructing and participating in this system. Everybody's just doing their jobs, following the rules, and looking out for themselves.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Nixon says he was just on the phone with POTUS, so that's the delay.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Yo dudes that is not helping

They're not really interested in helping. That's why they are who they are. It's sorta the whole point.
posted by aramaic at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

HA I just went for coffee but we're out of milk and HEY there is a not-the-president guy on stage now SO THERE.
posted by rtha at 9:47 AM on August 14, 2014

The timing and language of that Rand Paul piece is verrrry interesting. He lays into the concept of both police militarization and (less so, but still!) the systemically racist nature of the prison system and law enforcement in a way you don't usually hear from politicians, especially at a time like this.

While I still find him totally disreputable and ultimately, of course, his conclusion is The Federal Government Has Run Amok!, it does seem like a bit of a calculated gauntlet throw to Obama.
posted by StopMakingSense at 9:47 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

2 minutes until the President speaks.
posted by cashman at 9:47 AM on August 14, 2014

This seems typical of police, where they make a mistake or do something wrong, and commit to a course of action no matter what the consequences.

I would say it's typical of people in general, really. It's just that when police do it, consequences tend to be higher.
posted by inigo2 at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Julie Bosman ‏@juliebosman

"If people in the news media want to cover stuff and take pictures of things, they ought to do it"
Nixon: "I'd prefer that they would make me look young and skinny."

Talk about tone deaf.
posted by desjardins at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Nixon says he was just on the phone with POTUS, so that's the delay.

Break out the corn dogs!
posted by Pudhoho at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Military Industrial Complex
posted by Artw at 9:48 AM on August 14, 2014

ACLU of Missouri @aclu_mo
We filed a lawsuit today to obtain the #MikeBrown #FergusonShooting public records http://bit.ly/1rvWSaZ
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:49 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

However, there's no fucking reason to shoot him again. I can't even comprehend why you would do that.

Because modern policing - whether it be by virtue of policy or learned collaborative behavior - does not allow for the option of ceasing to react. We see it over and over again with police failing to follow rules not to engage in high-speed chases, even though we know that in almost every single case that engaging in them creates more danger for citizens than noting down the license plate number and calling it in. We see it when NYC police ventilate more citizens while trying to arrest someone than that person ever did. When cops shoot up a disturbed woman in a car, barely avoiding executing a child, rather than using vehicles to contain her.

I think a lot of things go into this, though most of it seems easily blamed on ego and pride. But as long as this sort of escalation is always excused as reasonable and choosing to end an encounter is seen as unthinkable I don't see how these things stop happening.
posted by phearlez at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

Talking about the Yazidis.
posted by rtha at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2014

What the world needs now is Sam Vimes

Can you imagine if someone in the power structure, the police chief, the mayor, whatever, said something like

We are inviting the press in. We are urging all citizens to get their cell phones out and run video. We understand that you, collectively, want to be heard, and we want to get your message out to the world.

We also want anyone who might be tempted to use this gathering as an opportunity for vandalism or looting that your friends, your neighbors, your community, and the world's press, have all have their cameras out.

For good or bad: The world is watching you.

Ya think the property damage might disappear? You think the cops would need sniper rifles and flak jackets?

This is why this is just dick waving and subjugation: Because this is obvious shit. Politics 101. We have the panopticon, we collectively are the panopticon, but a bunch of small town power hungry bigots are too afraid of their own privilege to use it for good.
posted by straw at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [23 favorites]

also to put things into hilarious and terrifying perspective it appears that this single police department is more heavily armed than the entire Fuerza Publica of Costa Rica.
posted by elizardbits at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

While I still find him totally disreputable and ultimately, of course, his conclusion is The Federal Government Has Run Amok!, it does seem like a bit of a calculated gauntlet throw to Obama.

When a Libertarian tells you they want to close schools, end social programs and legalize weed you know which 2 of those things is actually going to happen.
posted by Artw at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [24 favorites]

While I still find him totally disreputable and ultimately, of course, his conclusion is The Federal Government Has Run Amok!, it does seem like a bit of a calculated gauntlet throw to Obama.

Shame he doesn't seem interested in throwing the gauntlet at at least 4 of his fellow travelers in the Senate and 19 in the House, because that's where the gears have ground to a halt.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

POTUS: "First of all, [Iraq] ...."
posted by Westringia F. at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2014

Is there somewhere I can get a pin or a button or SOMETHING to demonstrate publicly that I support the community of Ferguson and abhor the actions of the police? Ideally I'd like it to say Justice for Ferguson, Justice for Michael Brown but I don't know if I could get this as fast as I'd like it. Is there a way I could do this myself? Is there a place in DC that would make me a single custom pin?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Um, Iraq is important and all but...come ON.
posted by desuetude at 9:51 AM on August 14, 2014

I think it's good that he's starting with Iraq. It's the end of speeches that linger.
posted by sallybrown at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Is there a transcript? I can't watch video at work.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's almost like there's a world beyond the US borders or something! Madness!
posted by aramaic at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2014

No transcript yet, but stay tuned here for the liveblog...
posted by rtha at 9:54 AM on August 14, 2014

Yeah, I am glad he started with Iraq as well, as long as the Ferguson statement is helpful.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:54 AM on August 14, 2014

also to put things into hilarious and terrifying perspective it appears that this single police department is more heavily armed than the entire Fuerza Publica of Costa Rica.

To be fair that's like every police department though. Costa Rica is not the best comparison point.
posted by corb at 9:54 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Take a step back and think about how we're all going to be moving forward

FBI and DOJ to investigate the killing
posted by rtha at 9:54 AM on August 14, 2014

DOJ and FBI are independently investigating. DOJ is also consulting about ways they can maintain public safety without restricting the right of protest and avoiding escalation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

See, I was just freaking out because here we are in the world where part of my brain thought "God, I don't care about this very important thing in Iraq, get to the terrorism at home"
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

He's just starting to address Ferguson, but the state of the stream is terrible for me. He's tasked the FBI to address the death of Michael Brown.

Also, Obama refuses to stop the briefing and PUT ON A DAMN TIE, no matter how hard I think it at him.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Nixon is a "good man and a fine governor."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:55 AM on August 14, 2014

The sound keeps cutting out.
Who's in charge, Rose Mary Woods?
posted by Pudhoho at 9:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

POTUS: "I'd like to ask us all to take a step back, and think about how we'll be moving forward." Interesting rhetorical trajectory.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

We lost a young man in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances

The local authorities have an obligation to be transparent about their investigation

Police should not be bullying and arresting journalists who are doing their job
posted by rtha at 9:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

There are "passionate differences" about the death of Michael Brown. :/
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

I think he's trying to help calm things down with his demeanor, but it feels dismissive and robotic to me. What he's actually saying is somewhat okay, if bland, but this was pretty much just a waste of a watch for me. He may as well of just issued a press release because it sounds like he just read one anyway.
posted by cashman at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [20 favorites]

Safety Dance!
posted by Pudhoho at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014

That was disappointing.

Shit.
posted by gwint at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The sound keeps cutting out.
Who's in charge, Rose Mary Woods?

No technical problems on my end.
posted by inigo2 at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014

rtha, are those quotes from POTUS, or your thoughts? Trying to follow along with the speech but can't watch...
posted by coupdefoudre at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014

And that's it? Now is a time for healing and calm, and that's it.
posted by rtha at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

What a nothing statement.
posted by empath at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'm trying to figure out whether I can get away with listening to this at work. :/
posted by corb at 9:58 AM on August 14, 2014

POTUS: "I'd like to ask us all to take a step back, and think about how we'll be moving forward." Interesting rhetorical trajectory.

always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
posted by sweetkid at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2014 [25 favorites]

This speech needs Luther the Anger Translator.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2014 [47 favorites]

Ferguson PD will apparently hold a news conference in the next few minutes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2014

That was unwatchable on my end (for technical reasons) as well.
posted by phearlez at 9:59 AM on August 14, 2014

Total milquetoast bullshit statement by Obama. Thanks for nothing, Mr. President.
posted by kjh at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Totally empty.
posted by penduluum at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014

He essentially said nothing, corb, so you didn't miss much.
posted by bitterpants at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I also got portions where the sound cut out, but it may just be me and you Pudhoho.
posted by neitherly at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014

coupdefoudre, I'm not rtha, but yes this is what he said.
posted by Westringia F. at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014

OK...so from what I'm seeing, so far, neither the governor nor the president has laid out the specific details of who's taking over what and when. That's what I want to know. When do we find that out?
posted by limeonaire at 10:00 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm trying to figure out whether I can get away with listening to this at work. :/

You really didn't miss anything.
posted by PMdixon at 10:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

All this passive voice about the violence "occurring." Why did he talk about the situation in Ferguson as if it were in the past? Is anyone capable of doing anything right now, for fuck's sake?
posted by desuetude at 10:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Also, Obama refuses to stop the briefing and PUT ON A DAMN TIE, no matter how hard I think it at him.

Because that's the important thing.
posted by stenseng at 10:01 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

You didn't miss anything, Corb.
posted by Pudhoho at 10:01 AM on August 14, 2014

That was unwatchable on my end (for technical reasons) as well.

Thought it was just me. Couldn't get it to work in opera or firefox, managed to watch it on my tablet.

I feel like I shouldn't have bothered anyway. Bland and empty.
posted by supermassive at 10:02 AM on August 14, 2014

Milquetoast. Can't believe Barry let me down!
posted by TheTingTangTong at 10:02 AM on August 14, 2014

rtha, are those quotes from POTUS, or your thoughts? Trying to follow along with the speech but can't watch...

Sorry, yeah - POTUS. I should've made that clearer but I was typing too fast.

The sound kept cutting out for me, too. Grrr.
posted by rtha at 10:02 AM on August 14, 2014

Several news reports are stating as fact that molotov cocktails were thrown by protestors last night. Is that documented anywhere reputable? It certainly is plausible, either violent angry protestors or else agents provocateurs. Or it could all be made up; many folks are misinterpreting this photo of tear gas being thrown back as evidence of molotovs.

I think this is exactly what's happening and being encouraged by some media outlets. I keep seeing this picture featured prominently next to articles "asking" (in the same way push polls "ask") rhetorical questions about whether or not residents have been throwing molotov cocktails. In fact, almost every headline I've seen concerning the question has been accompanied by the same photo of a protester throwing a tear gas canister back at police.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:03 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

See, I was just freaking out because here we are in the world where part of my brain thought "God, I don't care about this very important thing in Iraq, get to the terrorism at home"

It's all of a piece - the militarized police in Ferguson are just the latest avatar of our terrorism in Iraq, and our terrorism by proxy in Gaza and so many other places, coming home to us.

Obama is a reliable servant of elites everywhere, and of the military industrial complex. He's being bland and substanceless here because the new status quo he's worked hard to build insures that your opinion really doesn't matter - and that even keeping up the appearance of democracy is no longer important.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:04 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

looks like local newscaster Chris Regnier will cover the Ferguson PD Police Chief presser if you want to follow along.
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Transcript
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:05 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sound was fine for me. rtha conveyed the gist of the comments, that was about it. Basically, "bad things shouldn't happen" and "we're looking into it." Infuriating.

This gallery has photos of protesters attempting unsuccesfully to light Molotov cocktails.
posted by desuetude at 10:06 AM on August 14, 2014

Yeah, the "heartbreaking and tragic circumstances" bothers the hell out of me. Makes it sound like Michael fell out of a roller coaster.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

In fact, almost every headline I've seen concerning the question has been accompanied by the same photo of a protester throwing a tear gas canister back at police.

If it's that picture of the guy in the American flag shirt, it's a shame because that picture is great if you know what's happening, but fairly ambiguous on its own.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:06 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Thanks for nothing, President Obvious.
posted by stenseng at 10:06 AM on August 14, 2014

Don't take this as an endorsement for that speech, but I'm curious what people think he should've said?
posted by inigo2 at 10:07 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Or crashed into a tree on his way to the prom.
posted by Pudhoho at 10:07 AM on August 14, 2014

What did you guys want him to say, and how would it not have been turned by the press into "Angry Black Man Lectures Country On Race" and subsequently eaten up by the public with little to no question? See also: Trayvon Martin, Henry Gates.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:07 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

When a Libertarian tells you they want to close schools, end social programs and legalize weed you know which 2 of those things is actually going to happen.

Yeah, I guess that's what I mean? Just that we've reached a moment where pointing out the overwhelming and unnecessary militarization of the police force and the rampant, heartbreaking inequality and racism in who we police and imprison is on par with "LEGALIZE IT BRO" in terms of trying to seem down with the kids before you totally ruthlessly dismantle the tattered remains of their social safety net.
posted by StopMakingSense at 10:07 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

I'm curious what people think he should've said?

Well, upon reading the transcript I can see one thing he should've said differently - he started with a crack about how "the sound system’s really powerful" and that instead should have been "wow, the audio feed for the livestreaming is for shit."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on August 14, 2014

Is there somewhere I can get a pin or a button or SOMETHING to demonstrate publicly that I support the community of Ferguson and abhor the actions of the police?

DC's gathering for the National Moment of Silence will be at Malcolm X (a.k.a. Meridian Hill) park tonight at 7pm; the organizers for DC say "To show solidarity, please wear a red armband around your right arm and bring extra to share with fellow mourners if you can." I don't know if that is a nationwide campaign, but would love to hear if it is. There's a separate vigil planned at the White House on Saturday at 1pm (some info here). I'd bet there will be some buttons and armbands available at both events.
posted by argonauta at 10:10 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why Obama can't be more forthright. It's not like he can run for election again.
posted by desjardins at 10:10 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Don't take this as an endorsement for that speech, but I'm curious what people think he should've said?
posted by inigo2

That the abuse of the citizens of Feguson, MO at the hands of the police force sworn to protect them is unacceptable and will not stand. That investigation will not stop at the circumstances of Michael Brown's death but will extend to the unlawful and egregious actions of the Ferguson PD and the St. Louis County PD. That we will substantially and forever disregard the idea that this was some kind of isolated incident and will do something, anything, to stem the tide of black men being shot in the streets for having done absolutely nothing wrong.
posted by kjh at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [45 favorites]

instead should have been "wow, the audio feed for the livestreaming is for shit."

This is a derail, but it worked perfectly for me.
posted by inigo2 at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2014

I'm curious what people think he should've said?

"I'm disturbed by what, even in the police's version of events, sounds like an extreme use of unjustified force, both in the killing of Michael Brown and in the force's reactions to protests over the last week. I'm disturbed by accounts, documented and supported by numerous witnesses, of arrests of reporters attempting to do their duty to cover events. As a former Constitutional law professor, I'm disturbed by the fact that those the public trusts with the responsibility of protecting and serving our community have instead been engaged in behavior that violates the law. This behavior needs to stop now."
posted by sallybrown at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [27 favorites]

I didn't expect him to say much, but on balance he should have said nothing.
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the "heartbreaking and tragic circumstances" bothers the hell out of me. Makes it sound like Michael fell out of a roller coaster.

I heard that the opposite way, but I was probably being hopeful and projecting. Calling it heartbreaking and tragic seems to imply it was unjustified, and will certainly piss off people who think the cop was just acting in self defense. I know we're way past that point on the blue but I have reasonable friends who are still saying they "want to wait til the investigation is over before they jump to conclusions".

Of course he could've also just meant it in the "any time a life is lost it's tragic" way.
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Don't take this as an endorsement for that speech, but I'm curious what people think he should've said?

The fact that it would have been much more productive for Obama to simply read the op-ed by Rand Paul as his speech is pretty telling of how utterly fucked American politics is right now. At this point all we need is for Hillary to jump in and blame Obama for not arming the police more heavily.
posted by crayz at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

All that being said, I'm dying for Obama to just start railing against true injustices in this country to the degree of outrage that I feel.
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2014

I think he should have said that it is inexcusable that we still don't know the shooter's name, that it's inexcusable that the Constitution is being violated in Missouri, and that if the accounts of eyewitnesses turn out to be the real story, it is inexcusable that a young man is dead for no reason.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:12 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I would have liked it if he'd said something about why, with the crime rate dropping, police departments that are supposed to protect and serve civilians look more like they're invading an enemy stronghold. And that maybe just maybe that kind of presentation is a significant part of the problem.
posted by rtha at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

I would have liked to hear him say that the DOJ/DHS are going to revisit the question whether those types of weapons and armor should be in the hands of any civilian police force.

I would also have liked to hear him say that there is no account of the shooting that provides any justification for what happened to Michael Brown and that this is not a case of "ambiguity".
posted by shattersock at 10:13 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

Apparently Nixon is considered a possible democratic presidential candidate, if you want extra vomit.
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on August 14, 2014

Here's the type of thing he could have said. Except of course, that in this version, the disorderly mob have badges and assault rifles.
posted by stenseng at 10:14 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Antonio French's first tweet in 15 hours: After a night in the #Ferguson jail, I'm free. My staffers who were also arrested last night are also free. Thank you for all the support.
posted by argonauta at 10:14 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

There is little margin to Obama going hard on #Ferguson. If he does, it becomes a partisan issue at a time when consensus is forming.
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:15 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

What did you guys want him to say, and how would it not have been turned by the press into "Angry Black Man Lectures Country On Race"

I'm not sure I understand why that would be such a bad thing? Not only will he never run for office again, but it's not like he expects to have any help whatsoever from Congress over the next 2 years in accomplishing anything.
posted by Asparagus at 10:15 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Uh, consensus? Talk about tone deaf.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:16 AM on August 14, 2014

As the executive under whom any investigation into either the circumstances of Michael Brown's death or the use of force by the Ferguson police will take place, I understand why Obama might not want to say that the response was unconstitutional or that Michael Brown's killing was unjustified. Statements like that can make the investigation seem unreliable.

That said, he could absolutely have said that the DOJ/FBI will be investigating the police response in Ferguson, and he could absolutely do something like call the reports from Ferguson "troubling." He could absolutely have questioned whether or not proliferation of military grade weaponry in civilian police departments is contributing to the problem.

That what I would like to have heard.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:16 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

He could have read the most milquetoast speech I could have managed to write and it would have been a hundred times more strident than what he said. If nothing else I would not have committed the sin of writing about a death at police hands in passive voice.

The distressing thing about it, from the transcript I have thus far, is that for it to be this bland tells me that it's written by someone who is not trying to keep any frustration or anger in check. That's what chaps my ass. I LIKE that Obama is a calm voice, but to not leak any aggravation leads me to draw conclusions about the people pulling the levers, and that bugs me.
posted by phearlez at 10:17 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I want to thank everyone in this thread for keeping it updated. I've been following this avidly the last couple days but I can't look at anything on my work computer, and the live-streaming sites don't usually work well on my phone. So thanks, everyone, for keeping me informed.
posted by skycrashesdown at 10:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

What did you guys want him to say, and how would it not have been turned by the press into "Angry Black Man Lectures Country On Race"

I'm not sure I understand why that would be such a bad thing? Not only will he never run for office again, but it's not like he expects to have any help whatsoever from Congress over the next 2 years in accomplishing anything.

Not to mention that any midterm race that it matters in the Dem candidate is probably already trying to distance themselves from Obama in general...
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Chief of police: says there were bricks thrown, molotov cocktails, gunfire last night.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on August 14, 2014

Hamas kills an Israeli: Unacceptable! Obama outraged!
US police kills a citizen: Ambiguous! Have you tried the milquetoast?
posted by crayz at 10:19 AM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Also says there were fire bombs thrown at police.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:19 AM on August 14, 2014

Chief of police: says there were bricks thrown, molotov cocktails, gunfire last night.

I for sure trust him as a reputable source of information at this point.
posted by stenseng at 10:20 AM on August 14, 2014 [21 favorites]

"Nobody has gotten injured or killed."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014

Brittany Noble is doing good liveblogging of the chief's press conference.
posted by desjardins at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't know if that is a nationwide campaign, but would love to hear if it is.

Yes, nationwide - I have my red bandana at the ready for the vigil in Chicago tonight. I believe the hashtag is #NMOS14.
posted by misskaz at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I really hope the Police Chief says something along the lines of, "You may not have seen it in the news, but believe me, attacks were made against police." /sarcasm
posted by CancerMan at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014

Again, the only people injured and killed have been at the hands of the police.
posted by empath at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

When people say "let's start the healing process" they really mean "shut the fuck up."
posted by naju at 10:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [39 favorites]

When people say "let's start the healing process" they really mean "shut the fuck up."

Which they only have to keep saying long enough until they can switch to, "There's no use in re-litigating the past, the important thing is to move forward, so the nation can heal..."
posted by stenseng at 10:23 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

There is little margin to Obama going hard on #Ferguson. If he does, it becomes a partisan issue at a time when consensus is forming.

Yeah, agree with this. I don't know that this is Obama's reasoning, but for sure if he comes out swinging on it then all of the conservatives who are currently going 'wait this shit is fucked up' will pretty much be guaranteed to go 'wait I hate Obama and let's talk about how his response makes me angry instead of anything else'
posted by shakespeherian at 10:23 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

@xeni points out that clear pictures have emerged of the looters. Can you help identify any of the miscreants?
posted by straw at 10:23 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well...I'm actually heading up to Florissant now, 'cause I've had a dentist's appointment scheduled for months. And a coworker is heading over to cover the protest. I'll let you know if I see anything interesting.

By the way, if anyone wants to send pizza to the protesters, I've been trying to keep this hashtag going: #PizzaforFerguson. If someone organizes it, I'll definitely send money to whomever. Now would be a good time to do this, but I can't be the point person on it.
posted by limeonaire at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

"The media is not a target."

Oy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Police said asking for cooperation from protestors. If things get out of control chief said tatics units will be back"
posted by komara at 10:25 AM on August 14, 2014

There is little margin to Obama going hard on #Ferguson. If he does, it becomes a partisan issue at a time when consensus is forming.

Exactly my thoughts. I know what I wanted him to say, but the moment he says anything that can even be imagined to be slightly biased in some way means that the Ferguson narrative becomes Angry Black Man narrative. He was wise to stay bland, in the long term. This story needs to stay focused on the abuse and racism by the police and the inexplicable murder of a young man, not Obama.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:26 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

but I'm curious what people think he should've said?

That the wholesale murder of black men by police is reprehensible and is finished right this fucking instant.
That he has directed the Justice Department to conduct a thorough, transparent investigation of these homicides and that the criminals face justice.
That he has replaced the police in Ferguson with soldiers who will safeguard the citizens of Ferguson and protect their right to assemble peacefully, as well as quash opportunists and shit-stirrers.
That he realizes issuing police departments military equipment was a really bad idea and the feds are taking it all back.

Among other things....
posted by Pudhoho at 10:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Why there’s no accountability for the police in Ferguson
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

A reporter just threw out another name that Anonymous leaked, and it seemed to me from the police chief's reaction that it might be right right name now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

In other words, Obama wasn't trying to make a speech that would satisfy me, he was trying to make a speech that would not derail the entire media apparatus into arguing about his speech.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

DC's gathering for the National Moment of Silence will be at Malcolm X (a.k.a. Meridian Hill) park tonight at 7pm; the organizers for DC say "To show solidarity, please wear a red armband around your right arm and bring extra to share with fellow mourners if you can." I don't know if that is a nationwide campaign, but would love to hear if it is. There's a separate vigil planned at the White House on Saturday at 1pm (some info here). I'd bet there will be some buttons and armbands available at both events.

Thanks for this argonauta. I will be there.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:30 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Police said asking for cooperation from protestors. If things get out of control chief said tatics units will be back"

So one out of three racist incompetent police forces have drawn back but they'll be starting another night of terror tonight anyway.

Useless, useless, useless fucking assholes from top to bottom and all around.
posted by Artw at 10:32 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chief of police: says there were bricks thrown, molotov cocktails, gunfire last night.

Let me just say, gunfire is really easy to hear when you're tuned/looking for it. You can hear it in all sorts of things. The gunfire thing /might/ not be intentional awful, might just be bunker mentality.
posted by corb at 10:33 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Police said asking for cooperation from protestors. If things get out of control chief said tatics units will be back"

That's not good. That's very not good. Last night's "this is no longer a peaceful demonstration" police rampage was kicked off by one guy throwing a bottle, as far as I've been able to tell.

The National Moment of Silence in STL is 6:20 under the Arch... I think I have new plans for the evening, if I can get there on time.
posted by Foosnark at 10:34 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

What I would have liked: him beginning with Ferguson, rather than sending a message that domestic race relations are a "secondary" matter; spending at least as much time on Ferguson as on Iraq, rather than only half (6 paragraphs for Ferguson in the transcript vs 10 for Iraq); not describing the shooting of Michael Brown in passive voice; calling for DOJ investigation OF the local officials rather than WITH the local officials (he concluded with "I’ve asked that the attorney general and the U.S. attorney on the scene continue to work with local officials to move that process [open & transparent justice] forward"); unambiguously stating that he CONDEMNS excessive use of police force; calling for an investigation into the militarization of police generally; calling for legislative bodies to work with community groups to craft legislation (police cams, &c) that will ensure that the police use their power in a way that actually protects and serves the people; Q&A time rather than just issuing a statement & leaving the podium; &c, &c.

None of this is particularly partisan, and the fact that it could be spun into something partisan (or that people are worried it would be) is part of the problem.
posted by Westringia F. at 10:34 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

saulgoodman: “I think this is exactly what's happening and being encouraged by some media outlets. I keep seeing this picture featured prominently next to articles "asking" (in the same way push polls "ask") rhetorical questions about whether or not residents have been throwing molotov cocktails. In fact, almost every headline I've seen concerning the question has been accompanied by the same photo of a protester throwing a tear gas canister back at police.”

CancerMan: “I really hope the Police Chief says something along the lines of, "You may not have seen it in the news, but believe me, attacks were made against police." /sarcasm”

Given what the chief of police just said, the cops certainly believe there really were Molotov cocktails in the crowd. Despite the fact that, ya know, no cops have been set on fire. He totally did say almost exactly that, CancerMan. Like almost word for word.

He also was asked why the cops were dressed as soldiers and said, paraphrasing, "They aren't. They're tactical officers. They're S.W.A.T. We're doing this in blue." He's like the Baghdad Bob of Ferguson.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

Wait, weren't there photos of Molotov cocktails but the Black Bloc'ers just couldn't get them up and running?
posted by corb at 10:36 AM on August 14, 2014

Maybe he's colorblind. Is blue-camouflage one of the variants?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

As an American living abroad who fears that my country will fall to pieces while I'm away, I want to echo skycrashesdown's thanks for keeping me informed. I also want to thank you for keeping me on the thin edge where sanity and outrage can coexist.

I have lots of hardworking and dedicated, progressive friends, people who spend all their spare time fighting for issues like voting rights, marriage equality, and gun control. But right now, on this situation, nobody seems to get it outside the blue.
posted by willb2 at 10:39 AM on August 14, 2014

All I saw from the live feeds was one ineffectual 'Molotov cocktail' burn itself out on the roof of a car wash.
posted by Pudhoho at 10:39 AM on August 14, 2014

Is blue-camouflage one of the variants?

I've seen Navy in the blue variant, but I haven't see it as often as the other camouflage varieties. That's probably just me though.
posted by neitherly at 10:41 AM on August 14, 2014

We should start an organization that provides free use of those body video recorders (like police in some areas wear) to protesters in contested situations. I'd love to see what punks like St. Louis County PD said when there were 200+ videos documenting what actually happened in its entirety.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:42 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

We should start an organization that provides free use of those body video recorders (like police in some areas wear) to protesters in contested situations. I'd love to see what punks like St. Louis County PD said when there were 200+ videos documenting what actually happened in its entirety.

Call it iWitness - start a Kickstarter
posted by stenseng at 10:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [21 favorites]

Witness already exists.

Ironically, it was started in the wake of Rodney King.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:45 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

corb: “Wait, weren't there photos of Molotov cocktails but the Black Bloc'ers just couldn't get them up and running?”

What I've mostly seen are photos of people throwing back tear gas canisters captioned as people throwing Molotov cocktails.

There is one photo of people holding a lighter to a rag. One of the dudes in the photo is holding a spray can. It is not clear whether or not what they're doing is actually trying to light a Molotov cocktail because what's in their hands is not visible. However, as I said, no cops were set on fire.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

"There is little margin to Obama going hard on #Ferguson. If he does, it becomes a partisan issue at a time when consensus is forming."

I actually agree with this. I don't want to agree with it, because what I want is for the President to express the moral outrage that I and so many others feel.

But if I were in Obama's shoes, I would think very, very carefully about what is helpful right now, where lives are very much on the line, versus what's helpful in the longer-term national discourse sense of expressing that this situation is unacceptably fucked-up. Because it certainly is. But the President expressing that forcefully right at this moment could do more harm than good in the most immediate practical sense.

So, thinking about it, if I were President, I'd be very soothing or otherwise the opposite of inflammatory speaking publicly, but use all the practical resources available to get the police to stand-down, release information to the community, and some other things. Use the power of the office, one way or another, to change the conditions on the ground today. (Well, at least two days before today.)

Expressing outrage from the bully pulpit seems to me to be too likely to cause local authorities to entrench in defensiveness and not do what they need to do to de-escalate, and to also possibly encourage more protesters than just a few to be violent -- I think they're justified, personally, but it's destructive and basically exactly what the police and the other authorities clearly want, regardless of what they claim. I'd feel that my influence means that I'm responsible for any injuries and lives that might be harmed because people actually there felt that, fuck yeah, the President's pissed-off and so am I, fuck you! I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I think that's how I'd react to an angry President angrily endorsing my anger. It would encourage me to act upon it. And, again, I think it's justified for people to be angry and acting upon it, but those cops and their equipment are fucking out of control and as long as they are present facing protesters, we have a severe tragedy very much possible. It really needs to be people's first priority to avoid this.

And I think that means getting the police mostly off those streets. But this will seem like the exact wrong thing to do to a lot of people and so you'd very much not want to add to the already strong resistance for doing so.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

The Vox article sort of underscores my issue with how the cops handle everything. The head for the last block says

Police chiefs who want to defuse the tension simply can't

Except that's not true. They can pack up their shit and go. "Can't" in this context means lacking the political will. It's within their ability to say "creating a line of scrimmage is making things worse so we're not going to do it anymore." Get out, disperse through the community, and respond to emergency calls as necessary.

The property damage done to this point doesn't even approach the cost of the human damage done, even if you only count it as medical care costs and not emotional ones. They're not preventing that from happening by being out there. They are arguably inciting it.

But even if they're not, why do they have to create a focal point for these incidents? Pure pride, plain and simple. A refusal to be the first to disperse.
posted by phearlez at 10:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Paul Waldman: Obama weighs in on Ferguson, likely satisfying no one

It’s understandable to hear Obama talk this way. First of all, he was probably eager to avoid saying anything that would get anyone too riled up, particularly while the situation is ongoing. And since the Justice Department is participating in the investigation, it’s important for him as the head of the federal government not to express an opinion (yet) about what actually happened between Michael Brown and the officer who killed him, lest it appear that that investigation is anything but an objective one.

All that may be true, but it still won’t go down easy. We expect the president to be not just the head of the government but the leader of the nation and its people, which means we want him to give voice to our emotions. When so many of us watch this situation and say, “This is insane!” we want the president to come out and say the same thing. And when we have a situation where race is such a critical part of the equation, one can’t help but notice that not a word about that factor passed Obama’s lips.

So it may be left to other politicians not only to express the emotions so many people are feeling, but to do something else Obama didn’t do — ask how the events in Ferguson relate to policy, and how those policies might be changed.

Yesterday, I wrote a post asking about the response to Ferguson from libertarians, particularly libertarian politicians, to the situation in Ferguson. The post made a lot of libertarians very mad; amid the river of mindless venom directed at me in the last 24 hours, there were some critiques that actually had a reasonable point to make, about the way I had framed the question and had overgeneralized (if you’re interested, I addressed that this morning in this lengthy discussion of what one can learn from one’s critics). In response, some people asked, “So where are the liberal politicians?” It’s a good question.

After all, the situation in Ferguson is a vivid reminder of problems that liberals have been concerned about for a long time, most particularly the way black people are treated by the police in big cities and small towns all over America. This has been evident in both Michael Brown’s death and the way the police in Ferguson have reacted to protests by residents there, treating them not like American citizens who are upset and have every right to let the world know, but instead like they’re some kind of invading army that must be met with force. As many have pointed out, if you’re white, like Cliven Bundy’s supporters, you can literally point rifles at federal officials, and the response will be to politely ask whether this whole thing can’t be worked out, but if you’re black you can get tear gassed in your own front yard for holding your hands up and saying “Don’t shoot.”
[...]
The greater a national constituency a politician has, the greater their influence and the more responsibility they have to offer something constructive. I was glad to see Rand Paul, who does have such a national constituency, offer this op-ed in Time Magazine this afternoon talking about the federal government’s role in arming local police forces way beyond their actual needs. There’s a great opportunity for him to join with his liberal colleagues to advocate legislation to address this situation. If Paul got together with someone like Warren, they could create a powerful coalition to actually accomplish something. For a whole variety of reasons, it may not be realistic to expect Barack Obama to be the primary vehicle for constructive change coming out of the Ferguson debacle in the short term. But maybe other politicians from both parties could step into that void.

posted by zombieflanders at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

Nthing the thanks for y'all in this thread. It's about the only thing keeping me from exploding in incandescent rage.
posted by dogheart at 10:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

My wife's brother is a Texas A&M Aggie, and his views generally line up with modern conservatism as espoused by Fox News and such: he's usually in favor of things like drug testing welfare recipients, diminishing the public school system via vouchers and privately run charter schools, deregulation, heavy-handed official responses to things like the Occupy movement, etc.

He has not previously shown any interest in events like the killing of Michael Brown and the subsequent protests and police reaction to the same.

But yesterday, he said on Facebook, "The Bill of Rights is still valid in St Louis, correct?"

That's one thin ray of hope I've found in all of this: even someone who differs sharply from me on every issue of social justice can't help but see how fucked up the authorities' response to the situation has been.

On a lighter note -- I'm in laugh to keep from crying mode here -- can I say how badly I want some of those rippies now? I'm a chip fiend, and I thought I had tried or was at least aware of most of the varieties out there, but I hadn't heard of rippies until this thread, and now I can't stop thinking about them.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

“Things To Stop Being Distracted By When A Black Person Gets Murdered By Police,” Mia McKenzie, Black Girl Dangerous, 14 August 2014

“When Terror Wears a Badge,” Ryan Herring, Sojourners, 14 August 2014

“In Defense of the Ferguson Riots,” Robert Stephens II, Jacobin, 14 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 10:53 AM on August 14, 2014 [20 favorites]

I heard Al Jazeera asked the Chief of Police (or someone at that press conference) why they were attacked. Anyone know what the response was?
posted by CancerMan at 10:55 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

"There is little margin to Obama going hard on #Ferguson. If he does, it becomes a partisan issue at a time when consensus is forming."

Weasel words that paraphrase we're going to sweep all this under the rug and get away with it.

consensus = 'take it and like it chumps.'

He should have just showed up wearing khakis and a polo shirt.
posted by Pudhoho at 10:55 AM on August 14, 2014

I'd be careful driving around St. Louis for a while. It appears there could be a large surplus of angry traffic police in the area.

I'ts St. Louis. There's always a large surplus of angry traffic police.
posted by ryoshu at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Missouri Governor announces St. Louis County Police to be relieved of their duties in Ferguson
posted by Mchelly at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Mia McKenzie's article is great, although I would point out I think that MSM like Al Jazeera, Washington Post, HuffPo, MSNBC, for the most part is doing a decent job trying to cover this. When they can actually get a camera there. Without being arrested.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

It is so depressing that probably the biggest reason that Obama can't say too much about Ferguson is that he's black. This is just what I mean about damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't framing on protests. We actually live in a country where we expect the very people whose race subjects them to all kinds of social and literal violence to pretend that no, it's just some kind of abstract problem in civics, like whether we should hand out "I Voted" stickers or not. And if they act like it touches them at all, then they're being partisan.
posted by Frowner at 10:59 AM on August 14, 2014 [23 favorites]

Fox 2 Now have actually done an amazing job.

On the other hand CNN has spent more time on Patch Adams clips than Ferguson.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"In other words, Obama wasn't trying to make a speech that would satisfy me, he was trying to make a speech that would not derail the entire media apparatus into arguing about his speech."

I don't agree with this line of argument, except insofar as that might mean that the transformed media discussion would adversely affect some improvement on the ground in Ferguson.

Yes, per my previous comment, I think an unambiguously strong statement right now would be counter-productive -- absolutely not because of the politics or the media response (except in the limited sense of my previous paragraph), but in the practical sense of what would help or hurt today, in Ferguson.

But with regard to the politics, I feel the opposite -- I think the politics in both the short-term and the long-term and the effect on the national discussion would all be improved by an unambiguous condemnation of what the police and authorities have done in Ferguson. I couldn't care less at this point about the press turning this into an Angry Black Man narrative about Obama; I think the benefits would outweigh the costs.

But those are the political and social benefits in the larger context.

What's most important, today, is to change what's happening in Ferguson today. I think that in that regard, in terms of the bully pulpit, almost anything Obama says won't really be helpful and would more likely be hurtful and that either silence or something anodyne would be best. But that's no excuse for inaction and this would need to be matched by extremely vigorous practical action by the executive, in all forms of power, explicit and implicit. I'd wait for practical improvement in Ferguson and then make a very strong speech.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

All hell has broken loose: When law enforcement is law and order’s biggest threat

Incidentally, are some people still finding that #Ferguson seems deactivated on Facebook? It's totally dropped out of my feed, and everything I've posted related to Ferguson seems to be going into a black hole.
posted by scody at 11:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

I am not caught up on comments here because I have been too busy finding and spreading info on Ferguson on Twitter and following my local news sources to come into the thread lately. So apologies if I am repeating some stuff that has already been said. But I just saw a press conference with the Ferguson police chief a little while ago and this lying lying liar said:

1.) That he was unaware of reports of media being teargassed, shot with rubber bullets, harassed and arrested by police last night, but he would "look into it."

2.) That the media were "not a target" of the police.

3.) That no protesters were seriously injured. That no one was really injured at all except for police.

4.) That "if anyone was arrested" it was because they were defying police orders to disperse.

When he knows DAMN WELL that there is video of media being deliberately teargassed and harassed by police behind media lines. When he knows DAMN WELL multiple protesters have been injured by tear gas and "non-lethal" rounds. When he knows DAMN WELL two reporters were arrested last night while they were trying to follow police directions to leave a restaurant, and knows DAMN WELL that St. Louis City Alderman Antonio French was DRAGGED FROM HIS CAR and arrested AFTER he went to his car when police gave the disperse order. This man cannot claim he does not know who was held last night in his OWN DAMN JAIL. No.
posted by BlueJae at 11:02 AM on August 14, 2014 [51 favorites]

"I call upon all parties to stop this violence in Ferguson. Now, watch this drive"
posted by crayz at 11:03 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

So, thinking about it, if I were President, I'd be very soothing or otherwise the opposite of inflammatory speaking publicly, but use all the practical resources available to get the police to stand-down, release information to the community, and some other things. Use the power of the office, one way or another, to change the conditions on the ground today. (Well, at least two days before today.)

Okay, so how can we alter his statements and still manage that?

Now, second, I want to address something that’s been in the news over the last couple of days, and that’s the last situation in Ferguson, Missouri. I know that many Americans have been deeply disturbed by the images we’ve seen in the heartland of our country as police have clashed with people protesting~~, today I’d like us all to take a step back and think about how we’re going to be moving forward.~~

This morning, I received a thorough update on the situation from Attorney General Eric Holder, who’s been following and been in communication with his team. I’ve already ~~tasked~~ ordered the Department of Justice and the FBI to independently investigate the death of Michael Brown~~, along with local officials on the ground~~. The Department of Justice is also consulting with local authorities about ways that they can maintain public safety without restricting ~~the right of peaceful~~ protest and while avoiding~~unnecessary~~ escalation. I ~~made clear to~~ ordered the attorney general ~~that we should do what is necessary~~ to ~~help determine exactly what happened and to~~ see that justice is done.

I also~~just~~ spoke with Governor Jay Nixon of Missouri. I expressed my concern over the violent turn that events have taken on the ground, and underscored that now’s the time for all of us to ~~reflect on what’s happened and to find a way to~~ come together going forward. He is going to be traveling to Ferguson. ~~He is a good man and a fine governor, and~~ I’m confident that working together, he’s going to ~~be able to communicate his desire to~~ make sure that justice is done and ~~his desire to make sure that~~ public safety is maintained in an appropriate way.

Of course, it’s important to remember how this started. We lost a young man, Michael Brown~~, in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances~~. He was 18 years old, and his family will never hold Michael in their arms again. And when something like this happens, the local authorities, including the police, have a responsibility to be open and transparent about how they are investigating that death and how they are protecting the people in their communities. There is never an excuse for violence ~~against police~~ or for those who would use this tragedy as a cover for vandalism or looting. There’s also no excuse for police to use excessive force against~~peaceful~~ protests or to throw protesters in jail for lawfully exercising their First Amendment rights. And here in the United States of America, police should not be bullying or arresting journalists who are just trying to do their jobs and report to the American people on what they see on the ground.

Put simply, we all need to hold ourselves to a high standard, particularly those of us in positions of authority. I know that emotions are raw right now in Ferguson and there are certainly passionate differences about what has happened. There are going to be different accounts of how this tragedy occurred. There are going to be differences in terms of what needs to happen going forward. That’s part of our democracy. But let’s remember that we’re all part of one American family. We are united in common values, and that includes belief in equality under the law, basic respect for public order and the right to peaceful public protest, a reverence for the dignity of every single man, woman and child among us, and the need for accountability when it comes to our government.

~~So now is the time for healing.~~ Now is the time for peace and calm on the streets of Ferguson. Now is the time for an open and transparent process to see that justice is done. And I’ve asked that the attorney general and the U.S. attorney on the scene continue to work with local officials to move that process forward. They will be reporting to me in the coming days about what’s being done to make sure that happens.

And that's just with weasel bullshit deletion. Didn't have to be strident or order anything, though I don't see how you Angry Black Man an unequivocal statement that violence and suppression of press freedom will be dealt with using every tool available. And if you do, fuck it, twisting something that basic in American law means they were going to find something to twist regardless. Giving rhetorical shelter to the most craven and obvious is pointless.
posted by phearlez at 11:04 AM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Maybe he's colorblind. Is blue-camouflage one of the variants?

Maybe the camo is working too well, and he can't see the camo'ed officers. That would explain why he thinks their response to the protests is reasonable, he's missing 95% of the police presence.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:04 AM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

But I just saw a press conference with the Ferguson police chief a little while ago

I thought these clowns were reassigned already ...
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:07 AM on August 14, 2014

I thought these clowns were reassigned already ...

I believe St. Louis County PD and Ferguson PD are not one and the same.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:08 AM on August 14, 2014

Two one-ring circuses, at odds with each other...
posted by Pudhoho at 11:12 AM on August 14, 2014

Brilliance:

@SFTovarishch
#BREAKING NYC looters continue to defy rule of law, steal billions, leave thousands homeless. No arrests. #Ferguson pic.twitter.com/YY57il750N

posted by desjardins at 11:14 AM on August 14, 2014 [33 favorites]

I keep thinking about Eisenhower's farewell address. He knew this was possible. He warned us, and we didn't take steps to stop it. Except his military-industrial complex is now the police-military-industrial complex.

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:17 AM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

Fox 2 Now have actually done an amazing job.

When I was watching last night, they were licking the boots of the Ferguson PD chief for doing such a great job despite all the rowdy violent standing around holding their arms up that the crowd was doing. I closed that tab and went back to the KARG live feed where the cops were industriously gassing reporters and setting peoples' lawns on fire.
posted by Foosnark at 11:17 AM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

It's odd that everyone's speculating on the strategy for why Obama is holding back in this one particular situation, as if it's unusual for him. I'm sorry but he's an apologist for White America. That's how he got his job, how he's run the country and how he intends to continue running it. From the beginning his racial message has been "everyone needs to just chill out, blacks and whites alike!" and this is just another example. He's a tool of the racist power structures, not the answer to them, and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can figure out how to affect change on our own rather than hoping he will and always being disappointed.
posted by naju at 11:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"And that's just with weasel bullshit deletion."

Yeah, that's an improvement. But I think that even that would have still been very unsatisfying for most of us, and rightly so. The fundamental problem is that the situation calls for outrage and what is right and appropriate is for our President to express that outrage. I feel like anything less than that is gong to dissatisfy us because even if you could easily improve what he did say, as you just did, it's still a long way from what's right.

I mean, again, this looks like an occupying army. And a more aggressive occupying army than our actual occupying army. Nothing less than outrage would be right.

I really, really feel that those things need to be expressed and they need to be expressed by the President. But I feel that there's a fundamental practical problem with doing that at this precise moment in time. This is more like a hostage negotiation (with the protesters and people of Ferguson as the hostages and the police holding guns to their heads) today and that's the most important consideration today.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Winter in America

From the Indians who welcomed the pilgrims
And to the buffalo who once ruled the plains
Like the vultures circling beneath the dark clouds
Looking for the rain
Looking for the rain

Just like the cities staggered on the coastline
Living in a nation that just can't stand much more
Like the forest buried beneath the highway
Never had a chance to grow
Never had a chance to grow

And now it's winter
Winter in America
Yes and all of the healers have been killed
Or sent away, yeah
But the people know, the people know
It's winter
Winter in America
And ain't nobody fighting
'Cause nobody knows what to save
Save your soul, Lord knows
From Winter in America

The Constitution
A noble piece of paper
With free society
Struggled but it died in vain
And now Democracy is ragtime on the corner
Hoping for some rain
Looks like it's hoping
Hoping for some rain

And I see the robins
Perched in barren treetops
Watching last-ditch racists marching across the floor
But just like the peace sign that vanished in our dreams
Never had a chance to grow
Never had a chance to grow

And now it's winter
It's winter in America
And all of the healers have been killed
Or been betrayed
Yeah, but the people know, people know
It's winter, Lord knows
It's winter in America
And ain't nobody fighting
Cause nobody knows what to save
Save your souls
From Winter in America
posted by rocketman at 11:18 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

The Frontline Is Everywhere

For many Americans, mostly people of color, this has been the reality for a long time. Policing has taken the form of occupation; military-like targeting over general public safety. The taxpayer isn’t the public citizen who is to be protected, but the suspect to be hassled and assaulted. It once sounded like ultra-left hostility to mention this, but that’s changing. One of the best books on the subject of American police militarization is Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko, a principled libertarian. Conservative writer A.J. Delgado recently took to the National Review, arguing persuasively that it made no sense for the Right to at once support American excessive policing while claiming to be against unaccountable government expansion that infringes upon individual liberties.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:19 AM on August 14, 2014

Apparently Nixon is considered a possible democratic presidential candidate, if you want extra vomit.
posted by Artw

Ahhh. So, President Obama says he'll speak at 12:15. But is late because he's on the phone with the potential next Democratic presidential candidate who also happens to have been mostly MIA in the entire debacle of the state he governs.

I wonder what happened on that phone call!
posted by jillithd at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

2.) That the media were "not a target" of the police.

Isn't this the same police chief who was notified by an LA Times reporter about the arrest of a reporter from the WaPo and the HuffPo? Did he forget about that already? And has no one shown him or at least mentioned the existence of the footage of the Al Jazeera crew targeted with tear gas from cops?

Someone is really terrible at their job.
posted by rtha at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

But I feel that there's a fundamental practical problem with doing that at this precise moment in time.

"Yes, just not right now" has been the bane of every civil rights improvement ever. I decided a few years ago I would no longer say it or excuse it.
posted by phearlez at 11:21 AM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

From Artw's vox.com link above:

there are still multiple agencies currently working in Ferguson, and none of them is in charge

The rest of the article suggests that the police in Ferguson have implemented the NIMS National Incident Management System, and it sounds like as expected there was one incident commander at any given time, but that command changed periodically.

All that is fine. NIMS has been adopted as a standard because among other good reasons it is designed to scale as incidents get larger, to facilitate the interoperation of multiple agencies of multiple jurisdictions, to accomodate change of command as appropriate, and to maintain unity of command (all units reporting to exactly one commander at all times).

What I don't get is why these agencies have not been operating under a single higher command under NIMS. Is there no state agency that assumes command and coordinates lower level command changes between participating agencies? Maybe the state's DHS or some similar department?

NIMS events should, in my opinion, be on the public record with dates and times, for all incidents that use the system.
posted by maniabug at 11:23 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

From the beginning his racial message has been "everyone needs to just chill out, blacks and whites alike!" and this is just another example.

This is just like calling rape a "he-said/she-said" situation without acknowledging the gross imbalance of power.
posted by desjardins at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Incidentally, are some people still finding that #Ferguson seems deactivated on Facebook? It's totally dropped out of my feed, and everything I've posted related to Ferguson seems to be going into a black hole.

Same. Robin Williams and Dog the Bounty Hunter are the top trending topics. Anything I see related to Freguson is from a Facebook group I am part of. Facebook has been just useless for this. I considered posting a baby picture with Ferguson-related text photoshopped over, but decided against. But it's not just Facebook's algorithm... You can sort your feed by recent posts, and still nothing, and you can even do a Graph search for Ferguson, police, cops, etc. from My Friends and at least with me it returns very few posts. Facebook has trained us well (so maybe it is their algorithm after all.)
posted by AceRock at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Not trying to derail, but crying out fucking loud: at a rally against the bombing of Gaza over the weekend in Seattle, a shirtless man allegedly harassed protesters, yelled, picked fights, and used words like "towelhead." When a security guard was called to the scene, however, he ignored this alleged instigator, macing and detaining a black bystander instead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:27 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

"Yes, just not right now" has been the bane of every civil rights improvement ever. I decided a few years ago I would no longer say it or excuse it.

Totally agree with this.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:28 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

"what your cameras aren't showing is gunfire is erupting all around."

"Well you gassed the cameraperson and chased away the news crews, so no, our cameras didn't show that. They couldn't show much after we were forced to pack them up and move them."

I mean, that is not ALL that is wrong with his bullshit statement, but that is certainly one of the most obvious problems with it.

What an asshole.
posted by emjaybee at 11:29 AM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Here's the deescalation we were promised by authorities: Sniper on the roof (I can't hear the audio so I have no idea what is being said)
posted by desjardins at 11:30 AM on August 14, 2014

wait, is the governor actually a serious veep candidate?
posted by corb at 11:31 AM on August 14, 2014

The audio is just someone saying to focus on a specific agenda/task for their gathering. I believe the man speaking (shown at the end of that video clip) is a lawyer that offered to represent those arrested during the protests.
posted by CancerMan at 11:32 AM on August 14, 2014

wait, is the governor actually a serious veep candidate?

Probably not for long.
posted by schmod at 11:35 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

"'Yes, just not right now' has been the bane of every civil rights improvement ever. I decided a few years ago I would no longer say it or excuse it."

My argument is the President not saying a particular thing today, but instead doing some particular things today, and then saying those particular things a few days later. Which is a very long way away from putting off civil rights.

Seriously, waiting a few days for the situation to become less weaponized to make a forceful political statement is absolutely not going to make a difference in securing civil rights. It very much could make a difference to actual people who are staring down the barrels of out-of-control police. But, you know, waiting disappoints you, so there's that to consider, too. That's pretty important.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:37 AM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

NIMS is a structure developed by fire fighters, and adopted more recently through the emergency response and disaster relief communities, governmental and NGO alike. Police may or may not use it widely (yet). I have no idea if these forces are using it or not. Certainly, I know of a number of forces who have their own unique frameworks and agreements for interforce cooperation. This has historically, sometimes caused issues when they have to interact with structures using ICS in the field.

I wouldn't assume, unless it's been made stated such, that they're using NIMS. In fact, the concept of rotating commanders daily, as described in the vox.com article, isn't standard at all in ICS, and certainly hasn't been in the structures I've been part of in both the US and elsewhere. In fact, that goes against best practice, as I've been taught it and understand it, which emphasizes continuity of command, to avoid exactly these sorts of problems.
posted by bonehead at 11:39 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Rand Paul Blames Technology First and Racism Last

Only at the end of the op-ed does he make overt references to race. They're forthright references, and I give him credit for them. But they're secondary to his main point. The word "militarization" appears in the op-ed five times, and "military" three times. "Government/governments" appears five times. "Black" and "race" appear once each.
...
Military weaponry makes a bad situation much worse, but the core problem is still police forces that have nothing but contempt for the populations they're supposed to "protect and serve." By all means criticize the hardware -- but the real problem isn't going to go away if the use of that hardware is dialed back, because cops will treat civilians they despise with contempt using whatever's at hand. And if Paul's fellow libertarians get us talking almost exclusively about gear and government, then they'll have successfully diverted the discussion onto their turf, for their ends. We mustn't let that happen.

posted by tonycpsu at 11:43 AM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

It's more of a sideline topic and should be approached that way, but for the people wondering about Facebook feeds, here's a Medium piece on Ferguson and algorithmic filtering. Facebook definitely had some shenanigans going on - last night many friends were sharing and posting about Ferguson, but my news feed was showing me stories from 7-12 hours ago, then 1-2 days ago in an effort to avoid the topic. Really this is the point at which Facebook's filtering has been exposed as absolutely broken, when it actively hides the topics that are most important for me and most important for the country. I thought social media was about showing each person their customized interests, not actively, hatefully hiding it from them.
posted by naju at 11:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

Senator Claire McCaskill hugging a protester.
posted by almostmanda at 11:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

NYTimes: Standoff in Ferguson. 3 minutes of tightly edited documentary footage.
posted by Nelson at 11:44 AM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

Yeah i guess I did jump to the conclusion they're using NIMS/ICS. The system does not specify how or when command should change, purposely leaving that open. Though we do agree there should have been better continuity here.
posted by maniabug at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2014

Rep. Steve King (R-IA):

This idea of no racial profiling, I've seen the video. It looks to me like you don't need to bother with that particular factor because they all appear to be of a single, you know, of a single origin, I should say, a continental origin might be the way to phrase that.

posted by crayz at 11:46 AM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Ferguson is not showing in my trending box, but posts are all over my page; but then, hardly anyone is bothering to tag them? Anyway, they are not being hidden but my FB friends are pretty much all liberalish types.
posted by emjaybee at 11:48 AM on August 14, 2014

"Police said asking for cooperation from protestors. If things get out of control chief said tatics units will be back"

How about a fucking strategy unit?
posted by ryoshu at 11:48 AM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

A man is murdered and a town is held hostage and we all need to wait. We send hundreds of troops halfway around the world to combat terrorists threatening the citizens of Iraq, but when the terrorism happens in Ferguson, MO, it's gauche and unacceptable for the President of the United States to make too strong a statement about it, or God forbid, actually take action. What country are we living in? What year is it? Anyone with a television or a computer and the will to see could turn on last night and see what was happening in Ferguson, MO. Those citizens needed to be rescued. Those citizens needed to be protected. Where was the cavalry? The statement our President made today was that they don't matter and that he doesn't care. We will spend our blood and treasure protecting Iraqis but not black citizens of this country.
posted by kjh at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

I believe St. Louis County PD and Ferguson PD are not one and the same.

There's an interview with the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Chief that shows the differences. St. Louis police chief says he does not support militarized tactics in Ferguson

St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said in an interview this afternoon that he does not support the county police tactics in Ferguson, and has not sent officers to help them, aside from four officers to direct traffic. He said he made the decision earlier this week, long before the confrontation between police and protesters on Wednesday night that saw the St. Louis County respond to protests with armored vehicles, tear gas and officers toting cannons and assault rifles.

“One side, the chiefly side of me, wants to always be there to support law enforcement in the city or in the county,” Dotson said. “My personal side was concerned about the things I saw transpiring in Ferguson.”

“My gut told me what I was seeing were not tactics that I would use in the city and I would never put officers in situations that I would not do myself,” he said.

posted by gladly at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2014 [43 favorites]

Wow Steve King, being a contender for biggest piece of shit re: Ferguson right now is really quite an achievement. Congrats I suppose.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The best part is that in Steve King's head he thought "how do I put this delicately" and his head told him that.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:51 AM on August 14, 2014 [30 favorites]

probably should only use "single origin" if you're referring to coffee or chocolate
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Steve King has himself in some long term moron fantasy league; I'm sure of it.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:53 AM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

I'm flashing back to a little more than a year ago when Reddit tried to "crowdsource" the manhunt for the Boston Bombers and wound up provoking some suicides, due to wrongful accusations.

Oh, did they ever figure out that he committed suicide after being accused? I thought he was missing for a month before the bombings. The Reddit accusations were terrible for the family, of course, but provoking suicide is another step entirely.
posted by smackfu at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The system does not specify how or when command should change, purposely leaving that open. Though we do agree there should have been better continuity here.

You're absolutely correct, however, in every case I can think of, the OSC turnover is slower than just about every other position. It's very common, even on incidents larger and more complicated than this (forest fire seasons, hurricane response, big oil spills), to have a single commander on for the duration. This shuffle the deck every day approach is nuts. It speaks to how poorly prepared the authorities really were for a big incident.
posted by bonehead at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Just FYI, St. Louis Metro Police are not the same as St. Louis County Police. Metro is downtown proper, county is the greater St. Louis area minus the city. The city cops are fine in my experience, whereas the county cops are…not as good.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:56 AM on August 14, 2014

This shuffle the deck every day approach is nuts.

You can't hold the incident commander responsible for last night if there is no incident commander. This is a feature.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

Georgia Dem Rep Hank Johnson introduces bill to stop providing miltarized equipment to police departments.
posted by emjaybee at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [41 favorites]

There's an interview with the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Chief that shows the differences.

This guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I say put the Ferguson police chief on suspension immediately and have St. Louis Met. Police take over responsibility for Ferguson until a new chief is found.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Actually #MikeBrown leads my Facebook trending box, AceRock. Just subscribe/like to some anti-police groups listed here, that'll fix your news feed.

Rand Paul's oped focuses on the issues of militarization, and spending, about which his constituency cares most, tonycpsu. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Rand Paul has done far more than Obama to put pressure on the police. In fact, Rand Paul has even used stronger language than Obama in addressing the racial problem : "Our prisons are full of black and brown men and women who are serving inappropriately long and harsh sentences for non-violent mistakes in their youth."
posted by jeffburdges at 11:59 AM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Seriously, waiting a few days for the situation to become less weaponized to make a forceful political statement is absolutely not going to make a difference in securing civil rights. It very much could make a difference to actual people who are staring down the barrels of out-of-control police. But, you know, waiting disappoints you, so there's that to consider, too. That's pretty important.

Working backwards through this: guess which finger I'm holding up about your closing snark making this about me.

It's not about me, and pretending that the timing of when something is said is irrelevant while simultaneously saying that timing matters makes no sense. When the nation collectively is looking at a situation and expecting the President to make a statement that is a moment of opportunity. There are things that can be said and actions encouraged that will have a result now but won't later.

You want to assert that the risk is too great to do it now, knock yourself out. You're welcome to that opinion and I'm sticking with my opinion that it's a chickenshit play. I think that waiting for it to be less weaponized - assuming that it's possible to wait that out in modern policing - means, in my opinion, that the moment of attention has passed. and now it's just some dead black kid. Which we don't collectively give a fuck about any other day, so why would we in a week?

Those people out on the street know good and groddamned well that they're potentially in danger from those cops and they keep showing up anyway. They choose to keep putting themselves in harm's way because they believe the risk is worth it. In the face of that I unequivocally think it's a load of fucking nonsense for the President to avoid overtly saying don't shoot protestors and reporters because maybe that'll work up those cops even more.

I think it's patronizing and insulting nonsense for the President to avoid saying it because maybe it might work up those protestors to where they will incite the police to greater violence. If we can say it about people in Egypt without sweating what they might do and the results it will get then we can say it to our own citizens.
posted by phearlez at 12:02 PM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

I'm not entirely opposed to providing police with military equipment. What I'm primarily opposed to is the usage of such equipment in inappropriate situations, which Ferguson is a prime example of.
posted by CancerMan at 12:02 PM on August 14, 2014

Steve King has himself in some long term moron fantasy league; I'm sure of it.

Would absolutely join a "Congressperson says dumb shit fantasy league".
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:02 PM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

Rand Paul has done far more than Obama to put pressure on the police.

Obama called the governor and put the FBI and DOJ on the case. Rand Paul wrote a strongly worded letter.
posted by vibrotronica at 12:02 PM on August 14, 2014 [35 favorites]

I mean who's your first round pick? Do you go with that consistent McCain or Graham, who puts up solid if unassuming numbers saying sorta dumb shit every Sunday on the Sunday news shows? Or do you bet the farm on King or Bachmann and just keep those fingers crossed every week for a blowout?
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:05 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

I'd missed that, fair enough, well "said more" perhaps still holds depending on what one means by that. And I could replace Obama with most democrats easily enough.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:05 PM on August 14, 2014

Those... people... look like they come from some kind of continent.
posted by forgetful snow at 12:05 PM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

I'm not entirely opposed to providing police with military equipment. What I'm primarily opposed to is the usage of such equipment in inappropriate situations, which Ferguson is a prime example of.

I think the police have proven that when you give a cop an armored vehicle, everything looks like it needs to be blown up real good.
posted by emjaybee at 12:07 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

they all appear to be of a single, you know, of a single origin, I should say, a continental origin might be the way to phrase that.

Where precisely does he think everyone else came from?
posted by shakespeherian at 12:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I read that and wondered why there were so many French people involved.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

Obama called the governor and put the FBI and DOJ on the case. Rand Paul wrote a strongly worded letter.

Yeah, the Obama hate in this thread is astounding.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

vitreous Nordic spaceships
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2014

I'm not entirely opposed to providing police with military equipment. What I'm primarily opposed to is the usage of such equipment in inappropriate situations, which Ferguson is a prime example of.

I'm completely opposed to it. We've had laws on the books for years prohibiting military forces acting as police on American soil exactly because it's always a bad idea and creates the wrong kind of relationship between police and the people they are charged with serving.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:09 PM on August 14, 2014 [32 favorites]

Um, Steve.... You don't exactly look like you're from this continent either.

Given that you represent a place named Sioux City, you might want to choose those words a bit more carefully...
posted by schmod at 12:10 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

We do need a metafilter congressperson says dumb shit fantasy league, but this requires rating dumbness, which sounds tricky. I donno if you can judge dumbness by twitter reaction, maybe meme photo reaction but that's still hard.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:10 PM on August 14, 2014

I mean, look at these pictures and ask yourself: Does it look like the police are serving and protecting the residents of Ferguson, or does it look like they are laying siege to them? What exactly did the people do wrong here? They are allowed to protest in their own town.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Yeah, the Obama hate in this thread is astounding.

Are you sure you're in the right thread? People expressing impatience and disappointment is not "hate." Like, people standing in a street with signs, chanting, are not a violent mob pitching bombs at cops.
posted by rtha at 12:12 PM on August 14, 2014 [27 favorites]

This idea of no racial profiling, I've seen the video. It looks to me like you don't need to bother with that particular factor because they all appear to be of a single, you know, of a single origin, I should say, a continental origin might be the way to phrase that.

Yes, you piece of shit. They're NORTH AMERICANS.
posted by winna at 12:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [22 favorites]

State Senator Nadal (who represents Ferguson) on MSNBC. (She trashes the governor and has a few things to say about Obama.)
posted by nangar at 12:18 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Statement by Attorney General Eric Holder on Latest Developments in Ferguson, Missouri

Attorney General Eric Holder released the following statement Thursday following his meeting earlier today with President Obama to discuss the latest developments in Ferguson, Missouri:

“This morning, I met with President Obama to discuss the events in Ferguson, Missouri. Like the President, I extend my heartfelt condolences to the family of Michael Brown. While his death has understandably caused heartache within the community, it is clear that the scenes playing out in the streets of Ferguson over the last several nights cannot continue.

“For one thing, while the vast majority of protests have been peaceful, acts of violence by members of the public cannot be condoned. Looting and willful efforts to antagonize law enforcement officers who are genuinely trying to protect the public do nothing to remember the young man who has died. Such conduct is unacceptable and must be unequivocally condemned.

“By the same token, the law enforcement response to these demonstrations must seek to reduce tensions, not heighten them. Those who peacefully gather to express sympathy for the family of Michael Brown must have their rights respected at all times. And journalists must not be harassed or prevented from covering a story that needs to be told.

“At a time when we must seek to rebuild trust between law enforcement and the local community, I am deeply concerned that the deployment of military equipment and vehicles sends a conflicting message. At my direction, Department officials have conveyed these concerns to local authorities. Also at my direction, the Department is offering – through our COPS office and Office of Justice Programs – technical assistance to local authorities in order to help conduct crowd control and maintain public safety without relying on unnecessarily extreme displays of force. The local authorities in Missouri have accepted this offer of assistance as of this afternoon.

“Department officials from the Community Relations Service are also on the ground in Missouri to help convene law enforcement officials and civic and faith leaders to plot out steps to reduce tensions in the community. The latest such meeting was convened in Ferguson as recently as this morning. Over time, these conversations should consider the role that increased diversity in law enforcement can play in helping to build trust within communities.

“All the while, the federal civil rights investigation into the shooting incident itself continues, in parallel with the local investigation into state law violations. Our investigators from the Civil Rights Division and U.S. attorney’s office in Missouri have already conducted interviews with eyewitnesses on the scene at the time of the shooting incident on Saturday. Our review will take time to conduct, but it will be thorough and fair.”

posted by desjardins at 12:18 PM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

Yeah, the Obama hate in this thread is astounding.

I don't see why anyone thinks many of us would like My Pet Goat any better 13 years later.
posted by phearlez at 12:22 PM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

State Senator Nadal (who represents Ferguson) on MSNBC. (She trashes the governor and has a few things to say about Obama.)

Damn. This woman is awesome.
posted by naju at 12:25 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

willful efforts to antagonize law enforcement officers who are genuinely trying to protect the public

The police started it. What could be more antagonizing than the line of cops showing up to the vigil? I mean, aside from shooting a kid in the back from 10yards away.

Also at my direction, the Department is offering – through our COPS office and Office of Justice Programs – technical assistance to local authorities in order to help conduct crowd control and maintain public safety without relying on unnecessarily extreme displays of force.

It's too bad that calling the cops out for having no clue is couched in this diplomatic muck.

I have hope that the fact that the DOJ has interviewed the witnesses today means there will be movement sooner than later.
posted by rhizome at 12:26 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

St. Louis police chief says he does not support militarized tactics in Ferguson

There has been some amount of talk about reunification of STL city and county to eliminate a lot of the waste and poor coordination. If that happens, I sure hope this guy is the one who gets to be chief cop.
posted by Foosnark at 12:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Honestly, absent actual physical assault, antagonizing cops should be totally legitimate. We're going to give you a gun and a badge, but it bothers you to have some people yelling "fuck the police" at you? Grow up.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:29 PM on August 14, 2014 [61 favorites]

Also at my direction, the Department is offering – through our COPS office and Office of Justice Programs – technical assistance to local authorities in order to help conduct crowd control and maintain public safety without relying on unnecessarily extreme displays of force.

I take this as a sign that the Government has perfected time travel, because the STL cops seem to be stuck in 1954.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:29 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

^ Drafts Louie Gohmert for the win!!1
posted by maggieb at 12:30 PM on August 14, 2014

Missouri House leader calls for state of emergency, curfew

No. No no no no no. Maybe if you did that on Tuesday. Maybe if you did that on Wednesday, instead of a "we'd like to ask nicely that you conclude your protests well before sunset" (with its implied "or we're going to dress up like soldiers and stomp your ass").

But at this point? A curfew, and its enforcement by the Neanderthals in surplus military gear, is going to make things worse.
posted by Foosnark at 12:32 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Seattle's former police chief speaks out: "Had you set out to make matters worse, you couldn't have done a better job."
posted by komara at 12:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [45 favorites]

King then stated that he prefers to "reject race-based politics, identity politics" because "we're all God's children and we all should be held to the same standards and the same level of behavior."

Translation: Shut up. Acknowledging the reality of racism and its effects means I might actually have to do something hard, like recognizing that other people have experiences that are different from mine and yet they are real. Other people are real, even if they come from another continent, and they have rights! I can't handle it. Shut up.
posted by rtha at 12:34 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

"Rand Paul has done far more than Obama to put pressure on the police. In fact, Rand Paul has even used stronger language than Obama in addressing the racial problem..."

The latter is true, but I don't know whether the former is true. It may well be, if Obama hasn't actually done anything to put pressure on the local authorities. If action on his part amounts to this speech, then, yeah, it's pathetic.

But Rand Paul and Obama are inverted with regard to each other. Rand Paul has very little practical influence on the situation while almost anything he says opposing the police, no matter how forcefully, could only be positive. Meanwhile, Obama has considerable practical influence on the situation but almost anything he says, at this particular moment in time, would more likely than not have a negative practical influence on the situation. Obama's influence with regard to the situation on the ground, right now, is his actual direct influence via the executive branch and his direct influence in dealing with politicians who have clear local authority, one way or another, over the police.

Crucially, we don't know, other than his putting the DoJ and the FBI in action, that's he's actually done anything. And the DoJ and FBI may very well have no practical influence right now on the ground (although I feel like in an indirect way they could, by making it clear that officials and police are being scrutinized in a way that will have immediate legal consequences). So I'm not defending him on the basis of assuming he's actually doing something productive, but only that I think that the most practically productive things he could be doing right at this moment are things that don't include making speeches and, furthermore, making speeches right now is more likely to hurt than help.

But that's only mostly true about him. I very strongly agree that political leaders should be speaking up forcefully about this and in the same sense that Rand Paul is being productive, practically, right now, so can a whole lot of other people. More to the point, a lot of those people Obama has direct influence over. Some of them work for him. This is when presidential proxies are very useful. The VP is a common proxy in this kind of situation. Biden could make a forceful speech today and he should make a forceful speech today. Obama could be getting a number of people to say the things that he can't helpfully say. And, as I've argued, once the police aren't on the streets as if they were an occupying army, Obama himself can say those things as forcefully as possible.

I totally and completely agree with almost everything kjh wrote, even though he was forcefully arguing against what I wrote, because the only waiting I'm advocating for is the President himself saying something forceful but, otherwise, I'm very strongly in favor of Obama doing anything and everything that would actually improve the situation on the ground. And others can say the things that he can't say at this moment.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

State Senator Nadal (who represents Ferguson) on MSNBC. (She trashes the governor and has a few things to say about Obama.):

Our governor, Governor Nixon, has been absent from the minority community, not for a few years, but for a few decades. And this is inexcusable. And he only comes to the minority community when it's politically expedient.

And the governor is now here, but ... he has never come to ground zero. Right now he's in a different municipality, and he's speaking, but he has not been to ground zero, and for that I call him a coward.

I want to high-five this woman so bad right now
posted by crayz at 12:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [25 favorites]

Maybe when the State Senator asks if she's going to be tear gassed again, have a better answer than "I hope not"? The only worse answer is actively hoping she's gassed again.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:37 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

I think the Jacobin article ob1quixote posted is pretty critical for this discussion. The militarization stuff is scary and intimidating, but you can be intimidating with dogs and firehoses. What's truly frightening, as many have said, is that the defense of white supremacy and white institutions is as intense and all-encompassing as it was 60 years ago or 160 years ago.
posted by MetalFingerz at 12:39 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

A little clarification about police departments around here, since there seems to have been some (understandable) confusion:

St. Louis City has its own police force.

St. Louis County is a separate political entity from St. Louis City, that also has its own police force.

Most of the minor municipalities in St. Louis County, including Ferguson, also have their own municipal police forces.

St. Louis County police are responsible for unincorporated areas of St. Louis County and areas that do not have their own municipal police force. However, they also frequently provide assistance to municipal forces on big cases, because our municipalities in the county are small (like 20,000 - 100,000 people each) and their police forces tend to also be small.

St. Louis City will occasionally ALSO assist the county, but only if a case affects both jurisdictions, or the county asks very very nicely.

St. Louis County police have been assisting Ferguson police with the protests. They have also received assistance from St. Charles County police (St. Charles is a neighboring county across the Missouri River) and many county municipal forces.

St. Louis County was initially nominally put in charge of the local police efforts surrounding both the shooting investigation and the protests to give an appearance of impartiality. However, Ferguson police have still been on the ground working the protests in Ferguson and the people arrested at the protests have been detained in the Ferguson jail.
posted by BlueJae at 12:41 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

(So the St. Louis City police chief criticizing this "crowd control" operation has not been involved with it, and is saying if he had been, he would have handled it a lot differently than County has.)
posted by BlueJae at 12:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Holder the anger translator?
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am really looking forward to the National Police Reform Act which will be promised as a plank in the Democratic platform in 2016
posted by shothotbot at 12:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

DynamiteToast: "I mean who's your first round pick? Do you go with that consistent McCain or Graham, who puts up solid if unassuming numbers saying sorta dumb shit every Sunday on the Sunday news shows? Or do you bet the farm on King or Bachmann and just keep those fingers crossed every week for a blowout?"

Wait - can we do it like my 5th grade class had spelling baseball? We grade the force of the hit - so McCain or Graham, they'll be like 1, 2, 3 in line, ya know? A single, maybe a double. Save your Gohmert's and Bachmanns for like the heavy hitting. But - I guess the problem there is all these things are really asynchronous, there is no "season" and no set play times, so having an "order" to the players wouldn't really work, would it? I mean, unless I suppose you take statements from each member of your team, then sequentially order them as they came in. Maybe the value of each hitter is their insanity rank. McCain = 1; Gohmert = 4. How do you fail a hit though? I guess that's another question...
posted by symbioid at 12:45 PM on August 14, 2014

Bachmann is definitely your cleanup moron.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:46 PM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

Pater Aletheias: "I keep thinking about Eisenhower's farewell address. He knew this was possible. He warned us, and we didn't take steps to stop it. Except his military-industrial complex is now the police-military-industrial complex.

Actually a common term among prison abolitionists (or even people who think we incarcerate too many people) is the Prison Industrial Complex. I suppose Police would be either a super or subset of that, depending on how you look at it. Trade shows happen where all sorts of tactical and riot and prison police gear get shown and sold. Lots of money in the drug wars and other wars we continue to push.
posted by symbioid at 12:49 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Missouri House leader calls for state of emergency, curfew

*clicks article, reads*

House Majority Leader John Diehl, R-Town and Country

Okay, Charles Dickens, quit with the naming things in 2014. I don't know anything about Town and Country and I'm sure it's a lovely place, but on the heels of comments like that, it might as well read that the comments were made by Mr. W. Whiteman the mayor of Whitetown.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [32 favorites]

Town and Country is one of the whitest and wealthiest suburbs of St. Louis.
posted by Jacob G at 12:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Actually a common term among prison abolitionists (or even people who think we incarcerate too many people) is the Prison Industrial Complex. I suppose Police would be either a super or subset of that, depending on how you look at it.

There's plenty of negative repercussions to police action that don't result in prison time; the vast majority of criminal offenses, if I recall correctly, also include provisions for financial penalty. They also have their own loathsome revenue stream distinct from prisons (asset forfeiture vs prison labor outsourcing) so I think they deserve their distinct own Police Industrial Complex label.
posted by phearlez at 12:54 PM on August 14, 2014

Apparently Gov. Nixon is going to have another press conference.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:54 PM on August 14, 2014

Problem the first: that the DOJ and police departments need to have a Community Relations Service because the departments themselves are no longer comprised of members of the community they're designated to serve.

Second problem: when you're a "law enforcement officer" (note the terminology change we've seen lately - they're police officers and they sure aren't "peace officers") then everything you do is designed to enforce law and everyone you encounter must be breaking the law. Everyone is a 'perp'. It's just a lot easier for people who look like you to make you feel comfortable enough fast enough to accept they aren't during the first 3 seconds of your contact with them.

Third: every contact must be resolved. And if every contact is with a 'perp' then those can only be resolved in one way: arrest. So whatever happens next is going to escalate until you can arrest them, no matter what it takes. There's never an option to de-escalate down to just letting them walk (or even run!) away.

Fourth: we blindly and generally consider police heroes*. And heroes in American mythology don't let bad guys walk away. NEVER. Until we fundamentally shift some basic cultural mindsets we'll never change any of this.

* Because they "put their lives on the line for us". I mean, I don't know but I think most of America - even the supposed "bad parts" are actually pretty safe for police. I don't really look at my local sherifs and think "Yeah, you're saving my life on the daily!". So let's just stop that line of PR bullshit.
posted by marylynn at 12:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

I don't know anything about Town and Country and I'm sure it's a lovely place, but on the heels of comments like that, it might as read that he was Mr. W. Whiteman the mayor of Whitetown.

That is exactly what Town and Country is.

T&C:

Population 11K.
88% white, 7.5% Asian, 2.6% African American
Mean household income: $134,387 (the highest in Missouri)

Ferguson:

Population 22K
52.5% African American, 44.75% white
Mean household income: $37,134
posted by Foosnark at 12:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

I'd interpret a representatives name followed by R-MO-Town & Country to mean he was the representative Chrysler hired to help legislation benefit their Town & Country minivan line, MCMikeNamara.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Paid my $5 after ten years of daily lurking because of this thread. Thanks, MetaFilter, for being the best place to be today.
posted by kelborel at 12:57 PM on August 14, 2014 [41 favorites]

...though there are whiter towns in Missouri. Memphis, where my grandmother-in-law lives, is a city of 1822 people -- and is 98.5% white. There are more Native Americans (0.5%) than African Americans (0.2%) there. (I actually find it kind of scary, and I'm white.)
posted by Foosnark at 12:57 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

King then stated that he prefers to "reject race-based politics, identity politics" because "we're all God's children and we all should be held to the same standards and the same level of behavior."

King doesn't see race. People tell him he's white, and he takes their word for it, because he's able to be a giant racist piece of shit and keeps getting re-elected, and his son hasn't been murdered for walking down the street.

/colbert
posted by stenseng at 12:58 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Okay, Charles Dickens, quit with the naming things in 2014. I don't know anything about Town and Country and I'm sure it's a lovely place, but on the heels of comments like that, it might as well read that the comments were made by Mr. W. Whiteman the mayor of Whitetown.

It's pronounced "Whitton."

Also, agree with marylynn in general, but especially on the "heroes" nonsense. Either the police are risking their lives to keep me safe, or "officer safety" is the most important thing in the world and it's worth putting me in danger, or just shooting me in the back to make sure the police can make it home to their families. You can't have it both ways.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:59 PM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Gov. Nixon's live briefing
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:01 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's pronounced "Whitton."

To really be a town in West County it should have a French name which is pronounced in a bizarre way, like Creve Couer, or Spoede, or Ladue.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

There's a town in north central Kansas named, "Athol", and I'm pretty sure I know how they don't pronounce it...
posted by Windopaene at 1:10 PM on August 14, 2014

(Which, for the non-locals, are pronounced as Creeve Core, Spade-Dee, and La-Doo.)
posted by BlueJae at 1:10 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

(Although I'm pretty sure Spoede is actually German.)
posted by BlueJae at 1:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Whatever, it's pronounced stupid.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:12 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Holder coming through in the clutch - that's what I was hoping to hear from Obama. A clear course of action and a strong message, with it an implicit warning to local law enforcement - adult supervision is on its way.

You did hear it from Obama, Holder just said it. I very much doubt that Holder got up and said something, or did something, that had not been previously cleared with Obama, or was suggested by him. I would go so far as to say that this is a coordinated response (imagine that!).
posted by OmieWise at 1:13 PM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

The governor is speaking, and noted that Michael Brown was not much younger than his own son. Good start. You see that often when officials talk about horrible cases, but a lot of times they don't do it when the person is black.
posted by cashman at 1:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Gov presser: Missouri Highway patrol will be directing team tonight for security.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm not entirely opposed to providing police with military equipment. What I'm primarily opposed to is the usage of such equipment in inappropriate situations, which Ferguson is a prime example of.

I'm foggy on the source but when Gabe Newell was making Half Life his game design strategy was "Don't show me a huge gun and not let me shoot it." You can't put tanks down in the motor pool or flak jackets and AR-15s in the armory and not expect the police to find a reason to break out the toys and play soldier.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

To really be a town in West County it should have a French name which is pronounced in a bizarre way, like Creve Couer, or Spoede, or Ladue.

Blancs-sur-Rivière, but with a really nasal a in "Blancs".
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:18 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Very different optics of this press conference, as Chris Hayes points out as well. Governor Nixon followed by Black law enforcement officers and community leaders.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:18 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

cmfletcher: “You can't put tanks down in the motor pool or flak jackets and AR-15s in the armory and not expect the police to find a reason to break out the toys and play soldier.”

One need only watch the video weston posted to see this in action. I've seen cabin raids at the LARP that were executed with more precision.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:20 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

The governor is rattling through this press conference like a Catholic priest at 11:30 Mass who's got a football game starting at noon.

It's hard to understand, but it also makes it sound insincere -- like he's reading something someone else wrote and just wants to get through it as fast as possible, not that he means what he's saying. I'm sure it's just his public-speaking style, but ughhhhh. Optics, man. Every little bit counts at this point.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:21 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Who is this speaking, who said he's going to appoint a blue-ribbon committee that involves citizens?
posted by cashman at 1:21 PM on August 14, 2014

cashman, I believe that is County Executive Dooley.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:24 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Because they "put their lives on the line for us". I mean, I don't know but I think most of America - even the supposed "bad parts" are actually pretty safe for police. I don't really look at my local sherifs and think "Yeah, you're saving my life on the daily!". So let's just stop that line of PR bullshit.

Police safety is the best it's been in decades.There's even a chart.

The truth is, the widely reported "war on cops" in 2010 and 2011 was exaggerated. Overall police fatalities did rise in 2010 and then again in 2011, but those figures are compared to 2009, which saw the fewest number of police fatalities since 1959. Generally speaking, police fatalities have been steadily declining since the early 1990s, along with the overall crime rate. And that's merely the raw number of deaths. Over the same period, the total number of police officers in America has also increased. So the drop in the fatality rate has been even more dramatic.

There's an absolute number from that point in 2013 of just under 100 deaths. Compare it to a typical year for truck drivers of just under 1,000. In fact there's more dangerous jobs than truck driver. Want to guess where police fall on the line?

Construction was the most deadly industry, with 1,154 deaths. That was down about 3 percent from 1999, the first decline since 1996. Transportation was the second-most deadly industry, with 957 deaths, followed by services (768), agriculture (720), manufacturing (668), retailing (594) and government (571).

After truckers, those in the riskiest occupations work as farmers (476 deaths last year), salesmen (386), laborers (178), law-enforcers (142) and pilots (138), the census said.

Of course this doesn't measure the size of the population. Looking for number of truck drivers I come up with 1.7M but only about 800,000 law enforcement people with arrest powers. So you're really only 5 times as likely to die driving a truck as enforcing the law, not 10 times. There's 4.5M construction workers so they're only twice as likely to die. Manufacturing is even bigger. Pilots, on the other hand, at 73,000, means they're well more than 10 time more likely to die than cops. Odd that they only get to be heroes when they DON'T crash.

Also, while looking for the above stat I found one of Balko's old posts about officer strategy and safety.

Officer safety is usually cited as the main justification for the mass proliferation of SWAT teams over the last 30 years. Police say forced entry, flash grenades, and other paramilitary tactics are the only way offers can protect themselves while serving warrants on dangerous people like suspected pot dealers, poker players, optometrists who wager on football games, frail 69-year-old men suspected of selling painkillers, and women suspected of committing fraud on their student loan applications—to give just a few examples.

But what happens when police need to apprehend a genuinely dangerous person? We see this over and over: They don’t always send the SWAT team. And when they do, like they did in Columbine, the SWAT team sometimes waits outside until the shooting is over. So this week we had Whitey Bulger. He’s a suspect in at least 19 murders. He had 20 guns in his home when police apprehended him. So how did they do it? Once again, they didn’t send a SWAT team barreling into his home. Instead, they lured him out with a phone call, then arrested him peacefully.

posted by phearlez at 1:25 PM on August 14, 2014 [37 favorites]

From Twitter user Dr. Goddess ‏@drgoddess:

Oh snap. Captain Ron Johnson, head of Highway Patrol, is a Black man who is from MO and was just appointed leader. Amen, Amen..
posted by emjaybee at 1:26 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm not entirely opposed to providing police with military equipment. What I'm primarily opposed to is the usage of such equipment in inappropriate situations

I am opposed to providing police with heavy military equipment because it almost guarantees that the equipment will be used inappropriately.

When local police are given MRAPs and tactical gear, we encourage departments to skip straight to a DEFCON 5 militarily response without even bothering to attempt pacifying, community-based, civilian approaches.

This is made worse by the fact that although we're showering local forces with military equipment, we're providing little to no training in how to responsibly deploy such equipment without escalating an already bad situation.

I think it's important that we maintain community-based, civilian law enforcement as our country's first line of response to unrest.

Are there situations where a heavier response is merited? Sure. That's why we maintain a regimented and well-trained National Guard.

Arming the police with military equipment can only alienate communities and blur the lines of command when shit goes wrong.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Governor flubs response to first question.
posted by beagle at 1:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Reporter asks, "Who was in charge? (last night) Governor responds that he isn't looking back.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Governor flubs response to first question.

And is now just talking in businessy nonsense. Asked about the amazingly militarized response, he said "yesterday is yesterday, tonight is tonight, tomorrow is tomorrow" (a bunch of boardroom bs here) and then "I'm not going to look backward, I'm looking forward."

This is horrible.
posted by cashman at 1:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

You did hear it from Obama, Holder just said it. I very much doubt that Holder got up and said something, or did something, that had not been previously cleared with Obama, or was suggested by him. I would go so far as to say that this is a coordinated response (imagine that!).

When the DoJ's drug enforcement policy starts staying in line with what Obama says I'll be willing to start giving them credit for intelligent coordination.
posted by phearlez at 1:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

"That was yesterday, this is today" and "I'm not looking backwards, I'm looking forwards," the governor says, when a British reporter asks him some real questions about why so much force was used against nonviolent protesters last night, who was in charge, and who should be held accountable. SIGH.
posted by BlueJae at 1:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Nixon says he has no idea who shot Michael Brown, but believes the name should be released "as expeditiously as possible."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

"I'm not going to look backward, I'm looking forward."

"...upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"
posted by entropicamericana at 1:32 PM on August 14, 2014 [22 favorites]

"This is not my first trip to St. Louis" Gov. Nixon says. WELL I SHOULD HOPE THE FUCK NOT. Head. Desk.

Hey, anyone want to elect me as Governor of Missouri?
posted by BlueJae at 1:32 PM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

I think we need to start immediately catcalling or booing or something when a politician says they want to look forward not back. Fuck that noise. Its a way of saying that they won't actually fix anything but instead want us to just get over it and let it happen again and again.
posted by sotonohito at 1:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [22 favorites]

Hey, anyone want to elect me as Governor of Missouri?

How many trips have you made to St. Louis?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

My honeymoon was in Las Vegas. Can I be Governor of Nevada?
posted by Foosnark at 1:34 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

If you refuse to "look backwards" and discuss how and why something happened, how can you possibly hope to prevent it happening again?
posted by jeather at 1:35 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Gov. repeats that there has been gunfire from "both sides." smh.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:35 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Hey, anyone want to elect me as Governor of Missouri?

Do you want to live in Jeff City for some reason?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:35 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'd also be interested in, beyond the militarization of the police via equipment, how much we're militarizing the police via ex-MPs who get of national military service and then use that experience to join their local police department.

We would be so much better off if instead of putting a bunch of jacked up bros with guns patrolling the streets we put out a bunch of MSWs who were kind of good at gym with holsters full of social welfare resources.
posted by marylynn at 1:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm in St. Louis RIGHT NOW, roomthreeseventeen. Surely that qualifies me.
posted by BlueJae at 1:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I once had a layover in St.Louis. #PartarioforMissouri2016

More seriously though, can anyone give me info on what's happening in NYC tonight? My friend and I have heard about a vigil in Morningside Park, a protest? at Union Square, and another at 135th and Malcom X. Who is who? Where should we go?
posted by Partario at 1:37 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

WATCH OUT WORLD HE'S FORMING A COMMITTEE.
posted by Justinian at 1:37 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to just look forward and not back? Isn't that how the saying goes? No? Who cares! That was the past. I'M STAYIN' POSITIVE, YO!
posted by stenseng at 1:38 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

BlueJae, please let me know where your PAC donation page is. If you're there now, that's enough for me.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:38 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Partario, I believe you are referring to this? National Moment of Silence For Victims of Police Brutality 2014 (NYC)
posted by coupdefoudre at 1:40 PM on August 14, 2014

Governor responds that he isn't looking back.

My new response for literally every conflict for the rest of my life.

"why didn't you pay this outstanding visa balance"

"why have you embezzled all this money from our corporation"

"why have you been playing video games for 17 hours"

"why did you set that large wicker sculpture on fire stuffed with representative images of your enemies"
posted by elizardbits at 1:40 PM on August 14, 2014 [92 favorites]

Paraphrasing, but: "Any chance for a kinder gentler response?"

"We will definitely bring all of our resources to bear to reestablish the rule of law, and that's going to reestablish trust."

Fucking hell.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:41 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

When the DoJ's drug enforcement policy starts staying in line with what Obama says I'll be willing to start giving them credit for intelligent coordination.

Why do you think this isn't evidence of coordination? My point is that Obama's "voice" comes also through his actions and those of the Executive Branch. I work in an Executive Branch agency, not at the Federal level, and when out mayor support marijuana decriminalization, there was no choice but for all cabinet members to as well, along with their agencies.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone appointed by Obama says a thing, and keeps saying it, then it's his policy.
posted by OmieWise at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

This Jay Nixon fellow is a buffoon, and I wish he would stop responding to questions soon because he isn't doing anyone any favors by continuing this bureaubabble.
posted by brina at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2014

"why did you break into that store and wake up surrounded by cheese and regrets"
posted by elizardbits at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Awesome job, Anonymous: Stepmom fears for life after hackers release wrong name
posted by desjardins at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

"why did you set that large wicker sculpture on fire stuffed with representative images of your enemies"

You shouldn't be looking back on that anyway. It's much cooler to walk directly away from the blaze without flinching, and preferably while wearing sunglasses. David Caruso taught me that.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book! Stories from the militarization of the police, and how the courts have condemned all of us to living under an occupation army.
posted by dejah420 at 1:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

"We will definitely bring all of our resources to bear to reestablish the rule of law, and that's going to reestablish trust."

Fucking hell.

Surely he means replacing and/or arresting the police who have so blatantly violated the rule of law, right?

Right?

Why are you laughing?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:44 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Vox has a bit about how rubber bullets are simply unsafe. It's worth a look but the two things that stand out to me are (1) this is information we have now had for 40 years and (2) those stats on the number of cases where the rubber bullets penetrated the skin.

They don't do the math but I did. 78 out of 201. 39% of the time a rubber bullet penetrated the body. And we let them shoot these into crowds.
posted by phearlez at 1:44 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Christ on a crutch… somebody get the hook.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:46 PM on August 14, 2014

The Onion: Tips For Being An Unarmed Black Teen
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:47 PM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

"They don't do the math but I did. 78 out of 201. 39% of the time a rubber bullet penetrated the body. And we let them shoot these into crowds."

They're no fucking joke. I got one in the back from a goodly distance (through several layers of clothing, and a leather jacket,) at the Seattle WTO protests in 99, and to this day I still have a numb spot in my shoulder blade where I was hit.
posted by stenseng at 1:48 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

isn't doing anyone any favors by continuing this bureaubabble
I'd love to read a cultural history of police lingo. Which meat-headed early 20th century police commander stumbled into the idea of using jargony $5 words to sound authoritative?

Surely he means replacing and/or arresting the police who have so blatantly violated the rule of law, right?
Maybe one of the resources they'll bring to bear is their humanity! That would be swell.

Why are you laughing?
Because it's easier than crying.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:48 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh hey, here's an AME pastor who was shot with a rubber bullet while she was standing between protesters and police. (Warning: includes graphic photo of the wound. It was linked to above but did not identify the victim).

Non-lethal, my ass.
posted by argonauta at 1:49 PM on August 14, 2014

Kevin Johnson, the person in charge of the police tonight, is saying the same "we won't look back" crap. To his credit he did say he'll be on scene tonight trying to meet with protestors with the attitude being we're in this together.

We'll see what actually happens.
posted by cashman at 1:50 PM on August 14, 2014

Captain Johnson seems like a good dude. He concludes saying that before sending out officers tonight, he will be reading them letters from high school children about how they have felt the past few days.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

Hey, a serious question for folks who know more of the situation on the ground - is the looting/burning of stores even taking place in the same location as the peaceful protests? Would it be possible to send the cops to where the stores are burning, etc, and away from the protests?
posted by corb at 1:54 PM on August 14, 2014

"Non-lethal" simply means, "It likely won't kill ya, but it'll probably maim ya."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

There was some kind of documentary about Northern Ireland I saw once, made sometime in the 70's, which had a clip of raw footage from some kind of a street protest where the RAF used rubber bullets and one went wild and flew through a window and hit a teenage girl in the face.

The camera crew was outside the house, but they caught the family hustling the girl out to the car to take her to the hospital - mom on one side of her, dad on the other - but the father saw the camera crew and dragged them over to the cameras, pulling the towel they had pressed to her face away and shouting, "have a look at that! Take a look at what a rubber bullet did, eh?" And the girl's face was just a huge blur of blood. Mom finally dragged them away after a couple seconds. Later the news crew learned that the girl was blinded.

I've been looking for that clip to have on hand in case anyone I run into anyone who thinks rubber bullets aren't a big deal.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen, where did you find that information? I'd love to read more about Captain Johnson.
posted by chatongriffes at 1:56 PM on August 14, 2014

chatongriffes, about the letters? He said it during the press conference. Hopefully a transcript will pop up.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:58 PM on August 14, 2014

I've been looking for that clip to have on hand in case anyone I run into anyone who thinks rubber bullets aren't a big deal.

You could tell also them the story of Victoria Snelgrove
posted by bowmaniac at 2:00 PM on August 14, 2014

where did you find that information? I'd love to read more about Captain Johnson.

He may be doing a press conference. Jon Swaine is tweeting about him, Ron Johnson, in charge of policing Ferguson tonight: "Before I came here I had all my officers take their teargas masks off their belt".
posted by gladly at 2:07 PM on August 14, 2014 [44 favorites]

From the Reddit live feed, apparently there's going to be a Cards game tonight in addition to the National Moment of Silence rally near the arch. Downtown is going to be an absolute madhouse, and already several office buildings there are locking their doors.

Please please please everything be peaceful tonight and nobody get hurt.
posted by Foosnark at 2:09 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'd love to read a cultural history of police lingo. Which meat-headed early 20th century police commander stumbled into the idea of using jargony $5 words to sound authoritative?

It's not as much the jargon as the general tone of institutional language that creates that effect-- passive voice, weasel words, and so on.
posted by empath at 2:09 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

If anyone here is in STL, and like me wondering what is helpful to do, I am planning on bringing some food by the food pantry at 33 North Clay Street after work, as they are still accepting donations. I would welcome any other ideas folks have for needs that can be met locally.
posted by likeatoaster at 2:09 PM on August 14, 2014

Ron Johnson, in charge of policing Ferguson tonight: "Before I came here I had all my officers take their teargas masks off their belt".

As many comments as I've favorited in this thread, I want to favorite that one again and again.
posted by Foosnark at 2:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Elsewhere Thursday in the Show-Me state:

Springfield officer who shot unarmed panhandler resigns
posted by General Tonic at 2:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Police assembling tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:16 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Hi-viz safety vests instead of war zone gear = a good start
posted by argonauta at 2:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [13 favorites]

That "safety vests" pic is from downtown St. Louis. Hopefully they'll do the same in Ferguson.
posted by Foosnark at 2:19 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Onion does not disappoint:

How Many More Black Teenagers Have To Die Before Racism Just Sort Of Goes Away On Its Own?

The racial discrimination and animosity that stained our country’s early history are alive and well today, and they will continue to flourish until they all just sort of stop. But when? How many more stories like Trayvon Martin’s or Michael Brown’s must we hear before racism just kind of fizzles out without me having to do anything about it? How many police officers will be placed on paid administrative leave for committing a heinous crime against a minority before the dire and awful realities that plague this country suddenly stop being so dire and awful?

posted by scody at 2:20 PM on August 14, 2014 [32 favorites]

After all the empty "just tell us what we should do" rhetoric that came from the Ferguson PD, I'm having a good chuckle imagining it was sincere. Hopefully Captain Johnson's operation tonight induces a lot of "shit, why didn't we think of that" from them.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:22 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

item, one is in Ferguson and one in St. Louis.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:23 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Don't know if this has been linked in thread yet, but here is a first hand video account of the fight as it is taking place. You can see the flashbangs and teargas canisters going off, and people screaming as the rubber bullets are hitting them.

If it weren't for the English narration of what is going on, this would look entirely too much like any overseas military firefight, except the fire is only coming from one direction.
posted by quin at 2:24 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I fear one of those stagings might just be for show, as the two photos appear to contradict one another.

To be fair, the "police assembling tonight" one looks like they are in typical state highway patrol uniforms, not full military camo+body armor. I even see some short sleeves in there I think.
posted by misskaz at 2:28 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

naw man steve king means they all look like north americans
posted by klangklangston at 2:29 PM on August 14, 2014

I just got this from the NAACP members email list:

Brothers and Sisters,

By now we've all seen the shocking, horrifying images and videos of the Ferguson and St. Louis County police department responses over the death of Michael Brown. It is clear they are more interested in intimidation than pursuing justice and the truth.

But our work to discover the truth about Michael Brown's death continues unabated. Our hearts ache for the Brown family, and our anger, sadness, and frustration drive us forward to ensure a full, unrestricted, unencumbered investigation by the FBI is performed, and justice is served.

If you're like me and you can't let the shooting of another young, unarmed black man by police go unanswered, here's what you can do to help right now:

If you have information on the Michael Brown shooting, share it here.

We are united with one voice in support of justice in this case, and we will not allow Michael Brown's death to be swept under the rug.

There is a disturbing lack of action and answers about the circumstances of the shooting, and we're doing something about it. The NAACP petitioned the FBI to take the case, and they are now on the ground. We are providing a safe outlet for people with information on the case to come forward and be heard.

Stay up to date on our work on the ground.

We're working with the St. Louis County and city branches, the Missouri Youth and College Division, and the Missouri State Conference of the NAACP to get answers to some serious questions: Why was Michael Brown shot in the first place? Why has the response to potential witnesses dragged on, while the response to community gatherings has been so swift and intimidating? Stay up to date by visiting our "Justice for Michael Brown" page.

Share our "I support justice for Michael" graphic on social media.

Continue spreading the word that we are united with one voice in support of justice in this case, and we will not allow Michael Brown's death to be swept under the rug. Every tweet, Facebook share, and conversation moves us a step closer to justice. We're honored to have your support and help.

Thank you,

Cornell William Brooks
President and CEO
NAACP

posted by Jacqueline at 2:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

"On a lighter note -- I'm in laugh to keep from crying mode here -- can I say how badly I want some of those rippies now? I'm a chip fiend, and I thought I had tried or was at least aware of most of the varieties out there, but I hadn't heard of rippies until this thread, and now I can't stop thinking about them."

Skittles for Trayvon, Rippies for Michael?
posted by klangklangston at 2:30 PM on August 14, 2014

"why did you break into that store and wake up surrounded by cheese and regrets"
posted by elizardbits at 3:42 PM

Those two words do not belong in the same sentence.
posted by symbioid at 2:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I doubt if it will surprise many people here, but i suspect the whole "This just shows government is too big" idea is just as clearly flawed as if Ryan had said "If only taxes were lower, this would never have happened."

The problem, as I see it, is more about American ill founded contempt for central government and a far exaggerated view of its flaws. It seems very reasonable to have evidence based guidelines for the training, equipment and tactics appropriate for various different municipalities and to have some sort of centralized group for those very rare instances where heavier firepower is called for.

Or in other words, how many people have been shot by police in EU countries this year versus the US?
posted by shothotbot at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I doubt if it will surprise many people here, but i suspect the whole "This just shows government is too big" idea is just as clearly flawed as if Ryan had said "If only taxes were lower, this would never have happened."

IF anything, this is a clear knock *against* exactly the type of typical small government local control bullshit guys like Curly Paul are constantly spouting. My guess is Feds or even State cops would have comported themselves a good degree more professionally than these bumblefuck Mayberry Rambos have.
posted by stenseng at 2:38 PM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

Whenever I binge on cheese and feel regret, I just tell my lovehandles to focus on moving forward and peacefully disperse. They also insist on meaningful action before they comply.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:39 PM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

Or in other words, how many people have been shot by police in EU countries this year versus the US?

I am certain a great deal fewer have been shot in the EU, but I am not sure this is evidence in your favor. Europeans do in some sense have "big" government, but (when it's at its best) it's more like your big buddy. It builds great infrastructure and institutions to help people people all get ahead and live together. And there is some awful, asinine bureaucracy, but at the same time I think there is a real sense that the government rightfully belongs to the people, is there to protect the people. This kind of unprovoked police violence (both against Mike Brown and the protestors) would never be tolerated in e.g. France, where protestors are lighting SUVs on fire every other month.
posted by crayz at 2:42 PM on August 14, 2014

My guess is Feds or even State cops would have comported themselves a good degree more professionally than these bumblefuck Mayberry Rambos have.

You do realize that it's the feds who gave the bumblefucks in Mayberry all that military equipment?
posted by crayz at 2:44 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

You do realize that it's the feds who gave the bumblefucks in Mayberry all that military equipment?

That's a *bit* of a hypersimplification.
posted by stenseng at 2:48 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

marylynn -

we blindly and generally consider police heroes [...] (b)ecause they "put their lives on the line for us". I mean, I don't know but I think most of America - even the supposed "bad parts" are actually pretty safe for police. I don't really look at my local sherifs and think "Yeah, you're saving my life on the daily!". So let's just stop that line of PR bullshit.

No kidding. I drove cab for years, and as far as I know it's a more dangerous job. (Although, as with cops, traffic fatalities are by far the main reason for it.) I've actually had a guy point a handgun at my head, from about 3 feet away, in the course of my duties. Which is more than most of those heroes can probably say for themselves.

And yet, somehow, I've managed, then and since, not so shoot anybody at all, in the back or elsewhere. So fuck all that noise.

Also, goddammit, if the news is going to keep having me on the verge of tears anyway, I feel like I ought to be out getting teargassed somewhere. But I feel like the way things are going maybe I'll get my chance soon enough.
posted by hap_hazard at 2:51 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Justice for Michael Brown: Ferguson Day of Rage protests planned throughout country today
The “Day of Rage” will take place on Thursday, Aug. 14 in the following cities:

Chicago- Richard J. Daley Center 6pm, 50 W. Washington St.

Detroit – Hart Plaza, 7pm, One Hart Plaza

Lower Manhattan- 7pm, Union Square

Harlem- 123rd St. & Morningside at Park Entrance

Brooklyn- Fullerton Park & Bed Stuy, 7pm

Queens- Baisely Pond Park Jamaica

Washington, D. C.- 7pm, Malcolm X Park, 2400 15th St. NW

Boston- 7pm, Inside Boston Common (Corner of Beacon St. and Park St. in front of Massachusetts State House)

Los Angeles- 4pm, Leimert Plaza Park, 4395 Liemert Blvd.

New Orleans – 6pm, Lafayette Square
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

When push comes to shove, the police, at any level, will protect property, not people.
posted by MetalFingerz at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

lattiboy: Also, holy shit this quote from a Republican:

Doesn't matter, still a huge track record of being a piece of shit. Not impressed.

He's just saying what he knows people want to hear. Wake me up when it actually sounds believable that he means it.

sallybrown: "I'm disturbed by what, even in the police's version of events, sounds like an extreme use of unjustified force, both in the killing of Michael Brown and in the force's reactions to protests over the last week. I'm disturbed by accounts, documented and supported by numerous witnesses, of arrests of reporters attempting to do their duty to cover events. As a former Constitutional law professor, I'm disturbed by the fact that those the public trusts with the responsibility of protecting and serving our community have instead been engaged in behavior that violates the law. This behavior needs to stop now."

This the kind of statement i voted for, and elected this man to make. This is what i was sold.

Obama is like one of those spongebob(or whatever cartoon character) popsicles. On the outside the art makes it look like it's totally going to look exactly like the cartoon character and be all cute and stuff. Then you open it and it looked like the fucking nazis from indiana jones after they see the arc of the covenant. You're lucky if one of the eyeballs is even entirely on the face.

If elections took place through ebay, i would be filing a claim right now saying "item does not work as advertised"

I am seriously going to be disappointed for the rest of my life. What a fucking flaccid penis.

I understand the arguments for him not coming down hard on it, but i just don't entirely see them. He is tacitly allowing this to continue by coming down soft on it.

dynamitetoast: they "want to wait til the investigation is over before they jump to conclusions".

Yea, i've heard this too. I'd bet everything i own that they wouldn't be saying this if it was a white kid. I mean, i know we all know that, but they try and pretend that elephant isn't in the room.

Dirtyoldtown: "Not trying to derail, but crying out fucking loud: at a rally against the bombing of Gaza over the weekend in Seattle, a shirtless man allegedly harassed protesters, yelled, picked fights, and used words like "towelhead." When a security guard was called to the scene, however, he ignored this alleged instigator, macing and detaining a black bystander instead."

One of the bajillion issues with the Seattle Penis Department is that they will never, ever intervene against a security guard acting grossly out of line even if they're RIGHT THERE. Even if that security guard is assaulting you. Even if you call them later, it's pointless. I've been assaulted by security at least 4 times in all different parts of seattle, fucking useless.

I wasn't surprised to see them standing there going "meh" in this video, but i was still angry.

Seriously? Protect and serve? you're just going to let a fucking dickswinging mall cop drag a guy around by his twisted arm and mace him while you stand by essentially whistling and looking the other way like a goddamn cartoon?

Everyone i know who knows about this is mad as hell. But it's just like a downshift up hill from the general highway-speed anger about this whole ferguson situation. I've felt physically ill more than once reading about this.

Komara: Seattle's former police chief speaks out: "Had you set out to make matters worse, you couldn't have done a better job."

Wow, the former chief of a probably top 10, or even top 5 worst police departments in the entire fucking country(so bad in fact, the DOJ has taken control) is talking shit on you, you have fucked. up.

I mean SPD is awesome at fucking up protests, and shooting minorities for no reason. Look up john t williams(who was a friend of my mother), WTO, mardi gras, and many others.

This guys basically going "wow, i'm impressed, i never could have done that. What's your secret"?

Now you know shit is truly fucked.

rtha: King then stated that he prefers to "reject race-based politics, identity politics" because "we're all God's children and we all should be held to the same standards and the same level of behavior."

#shitonlywhitepeoplesay

Seriously.
posted by emptythought at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

Yeah, SPD is a hot fucking mess.
posted by stenseng at 3:03 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Obama is like one of those spongebob(or whatever cartoon character) popsicles. On the outside the art makes it look like it's totally going to look exactly like the cartoon character and be all cute and stuff. Then you open it and it looked like the fucking nazis from indiana jones after they see the arc of the covenant. You're lucky if one of the eyeballs is even entirely on the face.

I love this.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Did anyone link to St. Charles PD explaining that they were trying to escort the Al Jazeera reported to a safer location?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:15 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah, helping them right off a cliff.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Sounds like a Bill Hicks routine: "Well... If you play the tape backwards, you see us help King up and send him on his way!"
posted by entropicamericana at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

I'm pretty cynical that there's any chance of an investigation succeeding after this time. The murder wasn't even reported to dispatch, so almost certainly neither car nor weapon were secured, and the cameras at the scene were seized. So I'm sure by now the car has been staged to match the rehearsed story and the photos and videos deleted.
posted by tavella at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

As a black guy, I have to confess that I'm actually not too angry about this situation. I am saddened that the life of a young child was cut short but to be honest, this is really just part of being black in this country. We have never in this country been valuable (maybe except when we were considered property) and we never will. Our lives, experiences and futures are second/third tier and completely worthless to this country. This country has had no issues killing people who look like me in drives and I suspect it doesn't have that issue now. I expect more people who look like me to die at the hands of an institution that has been and will continue to be given the benefit of doubt by the majority of this country. I know that my life is worthless to this country, always has and will be, so these things don't shock me anymore. All I do is figure out how I live my life, knowing I am of less value, without becoming a statistic for people to protest over. My young nephew is turned 11 this year and for the first time, I had to give him instructions on how to comport himself when he is around white people knowing full well that his life is not held in the same regard as theirs. This will happen again and people will be upset and there will be commissions and the Earth will continue to tilt on its axis. Same old story.
posted by RedShrek at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2014 [49 favorites]

As a black guy, I have to confess that I'm actually not too angry about this situation. I am saddened that the life of a young child was cut short but to be honest, this is really just part of being black in this country

That is the saddest thing I have ever read on Metafilter in 13 years of reading here.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:23 PM on August 14, 2014 [44 favorites]

I'm sorry if I made you sad. I wasn't trying to. It just is the way it is unfortunately.
posted by RedShrek at 3:24 PM on August 14, 2014

"It hurts because it's funny (or it's funny because it hurts?)"
Tweets from @vasugi (V. V. Ganeshananthan) storify-ed:

Please keep your rage polite and orderly.

Please ensure your rage follows the dress code. Rage must be tidily dressed, & must say “sir” and “ma’am,” even if called “boy” or “girl."

We would advise your rage that it should bring along a resume and/or CV with a timeline of proof.

Your rage should take the time to educate others about what has made it so inexplicably angry.

When your rage behaves like this, why is it surprised that others react badly to it? When we profile your rage we are reacting to the facts.

posted by spamandkimchi at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

I've seen a number of people on Twitter pushing back against the attempt to hijack the National Moment of Silence into this "day of rage" business.
posted by Lexica at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Political scientists Christian Davenport and David Armstrong along with colleague Sarah Soule studied how the race of protesters affect how police respond to protest events in their paper, “Protesting While Black? The Differential Policing of American Activism, 1960 to 1990” (see ungated version here). In their research of more than 15,000 protest events that took place in the United States between 1960 and 1990, they find that:
… when compared with other groups, African American protesters are more likely to draw police presence and that once police are present they are more likely to make arrests, use force and violence, and use force and violence in combination with arrests at African American protest events.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

RedShrek, I just wish that nobody in this country felt like their life didn't matter because of who they were born to be.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

Highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is leading protesters on a march through Ferguson.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [48 favorites]

Protesters cheered the MO state police replacing the county cops. The crowd yelled "We love you!" to Ron Johnson. The state police are marching WITH the protesters.
posted by Foosnark at 3:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [15 favorites]

Jinx. :)
posted by Foosnark at 3:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

@roomthreeseventeen,
I totally understand. I wish it was that way but it really isn't. I do value my life though I must say :-)
posted by RedShrek at 3:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen: “Highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is leading protesters on a march through Ferguson.”

Thank God it looks like there's an adult in charge now.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:39 PM on August 14, 2014 [29 favorites]

Ron Johnson speaking to the crowd: "I am a black man with black sons."
posted by naju at 3:40 PM on August 14, 2014 [19 favorites]

Elon James and This Week In Blackness recorded an account of their visit to Ferguson.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:40 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is leading protesters on a march through Ferguson.

Damnit invisible onions, why are you being chopped under my eyes!
posted by crayz at 3:40 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Man I want to know what that woman's sign says. Why did she write it so tiny on that huge sheet of paper??
posted by rifflesby at 3:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I would vote for Ron Johnson for president before I would vote for Governor Nixon, just based on what I have seen them do today.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:43 PM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

I'm sorry if I made you sad. I wasn't trying to. It just is the way it is unfortunately.
posted by RedShrek at 3:24 PM on August 14 [+] [!]

As a white American male - I'm just so fucking sorry. I try not to be a racist asshole, or to support others who are, but goddamn, I'm so sorry that anyone should have to feel like this is just the way things are.
posted by stenseng at 3:44 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Seriously. Any combination of Ron Johnson, Antonio French and Sen. Maria Chappelle Nadal (who tweeted a "fuck you" to Gov. Nixon). I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.
posted by Foosnark at 3:45 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

K Chronicles
posted by edgeways at 3:47 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ron Johnson has given me the first flicker of hope since this disaster started. Sanity at last.
posted by emilypdx at 3:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

On the other hand, Nixon is standing between Missouri and a state assembly packed full with Antebellum revanchist lunatics from the MO GOP*, and has done a somewhat credible job - and the buck stops with him. The Staties and Ron Johnson are in town only on his order.

(*MOGOP, like MODOK, only with a very, very, very tiny head.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

BlueJae: When he knows DAMN WELL that there is video of media being deliberately teargassed and harassed by police behind media lines. When he knows DAMN WELL multiple protesters have been injured by tear gas and "non-lethal" rounds. When he knows DAMN WELL two reporters were arrested last night while they were trying to follow police directions to leave a restaurant, and knows DAMN WELL that St. Louis City Alderman Antonio French was DRAGGED FROM HIS CAR and arrested AFTER he went to his car when police gave the disperse order. This man cannot claim he does not know who was held last night in his OWN DAMN JAIL. No.

In the best case scenario, he is spectacularly ill informed and incompetent.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2014

Slap*Happy, granted. But the lies (about not knowing about the tear gas, etc.) infuriate me.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:55 PM on August 14, 2014

I would vote for Ron Johnson for president

Careful with that! There is a Senator* who is also named that, but you very much don't want him anywhere near the presidency.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 3:56 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

Man I want to know what that woman's sign says.

JUSTICE
for
MIKE
posted by dhartung at 3:57 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

emptythought: If elections took place through ebay, i would be filing a claim right now saying "item does not work as advertised"

And the seller would be justified in responding "you didn't thoroughly read the description."

Yes, Obama has often tried to be many different things to many different people. That means he's a politician. Pinning down exactly what he would do if he were a benevolent dictator is a fun parlor game, but ultimately pointless. There was no combination of words he could have used today that would have made the situation on the ground in Ferguson any better, and a whole lot of combinations of words that could have at the very least caused any chance at a political consensus on change at the federal level (e.g. Hank Johnson's bill, linked above) to evaporate. I absolutely wanted him to be more direct about the police misconduct and less equivocal about who is to blame for this situation, but not if it imperils a chance to change the conditions that led to cops rolling around in MRAPs looking for people to hurt and/or kill.

I think Ivan F. said it well above. Rand Paul's job it is to say the right words, while Obama's job is to sit in the background, assure everyone that there's a grown-up in charge of the federal bureaucracy, and let state and local officials do the right thing. Given how things are starting so far, with Ron Johnson marching with protesters, I'm bullish on prospects for tensions to calm down. Then it's Eric Holder's job to run point on making sure the investigation goes properly.

The political system is what it is. We got a chief executive, not a king, which makes statements about how Obama is "tacitly allowing" this and "coming down soft" on it extremely misguided.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:57 PM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

Wesley Lowery @WesleyLowery · 8m
"I'm not afraid to be in this crowd today, that's why I walk up front (in the march)" - Cpt. Johnson "hopefully they'll be some healing"
posted by jetlagaddict at 3:59 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Missouri Highway Patrol to take over security in Ferguson

“We are going to have a different approach and have the approach that we’re in this together,” Capt. Ronald S. Johnson, said during a news conference with Nixon.

Johnson, who grew up in the region, promised a different approach with the highway patrol in charge. He vowed that he would be on the ground himself on Thursday night and said he planned to visit the QuickTrip that has become ground zero for the protesters.

“I understand the anger and fear that the citizens of Ferguson are feeling, and our officers will respect both of those,” said Johnson, who has been the head of the highway patrol’s troop in the region since 2002.

Hopefully this means things are turning around.
posted by supermassive at 4:00 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Presidents are capable of creating historic moments, seismic shifts in national attitudes, merely by saying the right words at the right time. There's more potential here than just "sitting in the background." It's perfectly understandable for people to consider his speech a squandered opportunity.
posted by naju at 4:02 PM on August 14, 2014 [17 favorites]

crayz: And the governor is now here, but ... he has never come to ground zero. Right now he's in a different municipality, and he's speaking, but he has not been to ground zero, and for that I call him a coward.

For fucks sake, even bush jr went to NOLA almost immediately after katrina, right? seriously? ugh.

This entire situation has made me feel like in so many ways, in our government, the bar has been set so low that you can't even limbo under it shimmying flat on your back. All anyone is expected to do if you want a passing grade is to make some mild placating noises on TV.

Metalfingerz: I think the Jacobin article ob1quixote posted is pretty critical for this discussion. The militarization stuff is scary and intimidating, but you can be intimidating with dogs and firehoses. What's truly frightening, as many have said, is that the defense of white supremacy and white institutions is as intense and all-encompassing as it was 60 years ago or 160 years ago.

This hit me like cold water to the face, honestly. it's sobering.

My mom was young, but around for the protests in the 60s. Young enough that she mostly saw it on tv or heard about, but still remembers watching it happen. She started school less than a decade after integration, and grew up in a rural area where she was one of the only brown people in the entire school by a huge margin.

She showed me, and made me watch, read, and generally absorb tons of media about the civil rights movement. I knew about the dogs and firehoses, but i somehow regarded this as different and was viewing it through the lens of police militarization...

But yea, it's just the same old white supremacist garbage. The KKK thing should have given me that face slap, but... ugh

shothotbot: I am really looking forward to the National Police Reform Act which will be promised as a plank in the Democratic platform in 2016

...Only to get destroyed and gutted like the ACA, and probably even given a derogatory name, because "soft on crime". A high school debate team member could make that idea look like shit in a way that would be perfectly salable on the talk radio/fox news/etc media channels as something terrible that will deny us our safety and let meth labs and scary minorities run free.

If i wasn't so sick to my stomach from all this that i made myself a smoothie with some sprigs of ginger, and am currently sipping on ginger beer... i'd probably write a paragraph myself. It's just too easy. It's like the goddamn first level of duck hunt. Fish, meet barrel.

Half the people outraged now on the other side of the fence will not remember this much in 2016, because they're white and they honestly don't care that much other than "the cops in that one small town violated some peoples civil liberties a bit". hitting it fresh with the standard weapons will sink it like a torpedo shot at a pontoon boat.

That is exactly what Town and Country is.

T&C:

Population 11K.
88% white, 7.5% Asian, 2.6% African American
Mean household income: $134,387 (the highest in Missouri)

That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america.

To put this in perspective, Medina, which is probably the richest suburb in Washington despite it's theoretical low median income(putting it high in the running for richest area that's not in like, Dubai) is only 84% white

Bill gates, Steve Ballmer, and a bunch of other reality-warping rich people and tech executives live there. The average house is probably over 5 million. median income is about the same though.

And that town, "town and country", is actually WHITER. I think of medina as the whitest place i've ever been in my life. It actually scared me how fucking white it is. You have to actively try, like with redlining and shit, to make your town more white than medina. I don't understand how you could actually accomplish it without being a bunch of virulent racists.

gladly: Ron Johnson, in charge of policing Ferguson tonight: "Before I came here I had all my officers take their teargas masks off their belt".

Finally some fucking humanity. Can i maybe have a glimmer of hope that this might mean it isn't just "beat them with the billy clubs instead! use firehoses!"?

sotonihito: I think we need to start immediately catcalling or booing or something when a politician says they want to look forward not back. Fuck that noise. Its a way of saying that they won't actually fix anything but instead want us to just get over it and let it happen again and again.

Am i wrong in feeling that this is an incredibly white attitude? Because it sounds like it's basically a really soft-walk way to say "Racism is over, it's all in the past! even if that past is 20 minutes ago!"
posted by emptythought at 4:02 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

American ill founded contempt for central government...how many people have been shot by police in EU countries this year versus the US?

The real big government puzzler for me is how tiny US police forces are: in the UK, almost all police forces have over 1000 officers, which must make a huge difference to the level of professionalism. If I were a US citizen, merging small police departments would be one of the most important bureaucratic changes I'd want from my government.
posted by ambrosen at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2014

naju: Presidents are capable of creating historic moments, seismic shifts in national attitudes, merely by saying the right words at the right time.

No, they are not.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen: Highway patrol captain Ron Johnson is leading protesters on a march through Ferguson.

FUCK YEA

Damn, he looks pissed.

From some twitter links, he seems like a really solid guy too. He spoke out in support against a bunch of garbage surrounding the death of a state patrol officer who was gay.
posted by emptythought at 4:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

Statement by Attorney General Eric Holder on Latest Developments in Ferguson, Missouri
posted by supermassive at 4:14 PM on August 14, 2014

via twitter: Ron Johnson just now to the crowd - "you can stay all night, yell, shout, whatever. We just need you out of the sidewalk."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:15 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america.

Anecdata: My hometown (Camden, ME) is 97.7% white. Of course it's slightly smaller than 5K people. Next door are some towns in the 98%'s.

Moving to Montreal for university was quite an eye-opener. So much diversity! (Although MTL is still a very white city)
posted by Strass at 4:16 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

What's truly frightening, as many have said, is that the defense of white supremacy and white institutions is as intense and all-encompassing as it was 60 years ago or 160 years ago.

Yeah, this is what's really the heart of it -- the terrible, horrifying heart of it all. The same people defending the murder of Michael Brown this week would have defended the mob who murdered James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner 50 years ago. The same people calling the protesters "animals" today would have been happy to acquit the men who tortured Emmett Till to death 60 years ago. The same cops who arrested Antonio French because he "didn't listen" would have lynched him for the same offense 100 years ago.

Racism stains this country all the way to its roots.
posted by scody at 4:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [27 favorites]

Damn, he looks pissed.

I'm guessing Captain Johnson's expression is a combination of pissed and squinting from the sun being in his eyes but he knows that wearing shades that hide your eyes is bad police technique. (Hell, I was a volunteer ranger at fricking Burning Man and we were trained to remove our sunglasses any time we were interacting with somebody.)
posted by Lexica at 4:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Here's a timeline someone put together of events, with links, starting with the officer shooting Michael Brown dead.

For the portion where it says the witnesses accounts of what happened are all the same, add Tiffany Mitchell.
posted by cashman at 4:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

No, they are not.

C'mon man, don't try to tell me this didn't have an impact.
posted by naju at 4:18 PM on August 14, 2014

Moment of silence at 7:20 pm Eastern.
posted by cashman at 4:19 PM on August 14, 2014

naju: C'mon man, don't try to tell me this didn't have an impact.

Yes, much as your good looks and $2.95 will get you a venti iced Americano at Starbucks, Kennedy's speech and his power to mobilize the National Guard created a major turning point in the civil rights movement.

Had you said "merely by saying the right words at the right time and using executive power", you would have been correct.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:22 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america.

let me introduce you to Montana (89.5% white) and Idaho (93.7%)
posted by desjardins at 4:23 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Had you said "merely by saying the right words at the right time and using executive power", you would have been correct.

I'm talking about things that are harder to measure, like the national consciousness. In case you haven't noticed, popular American attitudes about race have been toxic-bordering-on-maniacal for the past few years. We absolutely need tangible executive and legislative action and course correction, but we also need to change how people are thinking about this stuff. Consciousness-wise things have seriously regressed back to the 50s, and without changing popular consciousness it's difficult to effect systemic change.
posted by naju at 4:28 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

I found This Article which links to a document entitled Operation Ghetto Storm, put out by the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement, which analyzed news stories in 2012 to look at the rate of extrajudicial police killings of black people in America. The rate is 1 black person killed by a police officer every 28 hours in the US. They estimate it might be as high as 1 every 24 hours, but due to reports that discuss critical condition, but never further informing as to whether the individual died later, and other factors, they wouldn't put that value on their as an official number.

313 lives taken by police in 2012.

Here is a direct link to the [PDF] of the report.
posted by symbioid at 4:28 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

NBC Nightly News was generally pretty respectful. The ABC Ghoul Squad said that Molotov cocktails were thrown at the police, and they had one still photo of a protester holding something that is pretty clearly burning, but what exactly it is isn't clear.

I searched around a little, and found ABC's online report, “Violence in Ferguson: Police Fire Tear Gas, Smoke Bombs at Demonstrators.” According to their own reporting and images, the protesters were chanting "Hands up! Don't Shoot!" The cops warned the protesters to disperse, then fired gas and stun grenades. Only then, now that gas was in the air, did one dude, separated from the rest of the protest, throw a Molotov cocktail. There's a single photo of it, and no photo or video of the aftermath.

I note that while the cops have made a big deal about "Molotov cocktails," they haven't made what would almost certainly be a giant "See, we're the real victims here!" deal out of it that they would if someone got hurt. Furthermore, clearly visible in the photo is the fact that they had already filled the street with gas. So they should tell that "we was provoked" story walking.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:32 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

naju: I'm talking about things that are harder to measure, like the national consciousness. In case you haven't noticed, popular American attitudes about race have been toxic-bordering-on-maniacal for the past few years. We absolutely need tangible executive and legislative action and course correction, but we also need to change how people are thinking about this stuff. Consciousness-wise things have seriously regressed back to the 50s, and without changing popular consciousness it's difficult to affect systemic change.

I agree with you that this change is needed, but the link in my original response to your "bully pulpit" argument points to citations (and an entire book) that show that Presidents can't actually move public opinion the way people imagine they can. The change we need has to come from the bottom up, not the top down.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

If we're going to have legislative action on this issue, then Obama had better full-throatedly support terminating with extreme prejudice every single young black person in the United States by the hands of the police...

In no time flat, the Republican congress will assuredly pass legislation working to stop such a clearly fascist plot by that ne'er do well Obama. And thus, the 12-dimensional gambit succeeds yet again.
posted by symbioid at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Earlier today in between news conferences one of the live feeds (may have been kmov) was covering protesters. There was a group of people speaking, including the one guy you may have seen that was wearing a captain's hat. They talked about a bunch of different things related to justice and money spending and then almost in passing the guy in the captains hat mentioned a protest for Monday morning that involved everyone in the area going 40mph on local highways, kind of a slow protest. I don't know if that was just an idea or if they are setting it up further and spreading the word. I don't see anything online yet.
posted by cashman at 4:34 PM on August 14, 2014

Too soon, symbioid.
posted by cashman at 4:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

TPM: State Sen Tweets 'F--K You' At Missouri Gov Over Ferguson Response

My new favorite state government official other than my own rep.
posted by nathan_teske at 4:56 PM on August 14, 2014 [16 favorites]

The #NMOS14 hashtag is hoppin'.
posted by desjardins at 5:07 PM on August 14, 2014

That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america.

Ha. My city is 91.7% white. As recently as 1960 there was only one black family in town, and the man was a doctor. Anyway, T&C is whiter than any US metro over 1 million, that's for sure (though only by a smidgen). But there are plenty of lists of smaller cities (one here; the original link has changed, though) that T&C fits the criteria for but isn't even in the top 100 (#100 is at 98%).

I'm guessing Captain Johnson's expression is a combination of pissed and squinting from the sun

Probably just a case of Resting Police Commander Face.
posted by dhartung at 5:10 PM on August 14, 2014 [12 favorites]

“Meet the Missouri Highway State Patrol captain who is taking over in Ferguson,” Elahe Izadi, The Washington Post, 14 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 5:14 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

emptythought, as others have pointed out there are large swaths of the country where 88% white isn't particularly notable. Hell, the entire New Hampshire/Vermont/Maine strip across northern New England is 95% white. So it's not all that shocking.
posted by Justinian at 5:22 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

“Political impact of Ferguson protest”—The Ed Show, 14 August 2014

President Obama joins the chorus of politicians calling for peaceful resolutions in Ferguson. Salamishah Tillet and Goldie Taylor join Michael Eric Dyson to discuss.

posted by ob1quixote at 5:22 PM on August 14, 2014

OH - and that shit spewing out of Steve King's mouth - must come from a single incontinental origin.
posted by symbioid at 5:23 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

State Sen Tweets 'F--K You' At Missouri Gov Over Ferguson Response

That must be the woman I heard (she was off-camera) on some video of a conference with the police chief the other day...."I'd just like to know, are we going to be gassed again today? Because I was part of the protest last night and we got gassed. I'm a state senator, by the way. So...are we going to be gassed again?"

It was a nice moment in press conference history.
posted by uosuaq at 5:27 PM on August 14, 2014 [18 favorites]

OH - and that shit spewing out of Steve King's mouth - must come from a single incontinental origin.

The Incontinent Region which spawns the mouth of the River Anal.

Take your wellies and an umbrella when visiting.
posted by futz at 5:34 PM on August 14, 2014

“With Highway Patrol, hugs and kisses replace tear gas in Ferguson,” Wesley Lowery, The Washington Post, 14 August 2014

Suddenly, everything has changed.

The heavy riot armor, the SWAT trucks with sniper posts, the hostile glares: tonight in Ferguson they were gone.

A stunning change in tone radiated through the suburban streets where protests had turned violent each of the last four evenings following the police shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown.

But Thursday night, when more than a thousand protesters descended on the remains of QuickTrip – which was burned during riots on Sunday – they had a new leader.

The man at the front of the march, was Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson, a Ferguson native.

“I’m not afraid to be in this crowd,” Johnson declared to reporters.

posted by ob1quixote at 5:36 PM on August 14, 2014 [32 favorites]

Yeah, that article.

Moments later, as he rallied the crowd and demanded justice and information about the shooting, the man with the megaphone declared:

“They respect us,” referring to police. “ So let’s respect them. They’ve given us the sidewalk so lets stay out of their street.”

Amazing how far a little common sense and human decency go, especially when they have been in short supply.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 6:06 PM on August 14, 2014 [29 favorites]

You know, my cynical brain just wont shut up.

What i'm worried about now, is since this guy got it under control seemingly... that the general narrative will be "yay he fixed it! state cops were the good guys problem solved it's all over" and the media will completely shift away from discussing it, and other than people like us on sites like these the attention focused on it will essentially be over.
posted by emptythought at 6:07 PM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

Hopefully it lasts. There's still going to be a lot of anger given the stonewalling of the investigation and the general 'oh, well, all that abuse was *yesterday*, we aren't going to deal with consequences for that, we are forward looking' line the PTB seem to be trying to sell. There's still a dead kid and every evidence that they intend to keep covering it up, given they won't even release the autopsy results. The initial goodwill of 'well, at least they are treating us like human beings' may fade when people don't get any sign of justice happening. Plus there's always a few assholes who want to troll in any demonstration, and as we've noticed there are plenty of media and government types eager to present that as a reason to play soldier.
posted by tavella at 6:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't think the people of Ferguson will stop discussing it, and presumably as more details are released the media won't stop either. Plus, human nature. (That it's the doldrums of August recess and holidays will cynically probably keep it going, though I note that CNN has had update Robin Williams as the banner headline for days now.) I am very glad that the protestors are in less danger now, and that the situation may actually move towards a more positive direction now.
posted by jetlagaddict at 6:13 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

How long can they hold off sharing the officer's name? I can't recall a situation where a civilian accused of murder had his or her name withheld for even this long after an event.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:15 PM on August 14, 2014

The #NMOS14 hashtag is hoppin'.

Don't you know it. The NMOS event in St Louis is going well and even though I had to leave abruptly, I'm glad I got to meet the woman who took this photo (or else I may never have seen it). Feels like a nice summary of what was happening all over the country today in memory of Mike Brown and many others.
posted by neitherly at 6:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

While things in Ferguson, MO are settling down, it's heating up in NYC.

Protesters being kettled in NYC at Ferguson Solidarity protest.
posted by spinifex23 at 6:22 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Some asshole is shooting from a white Grand Prix in Ferguson, per Reddit live feed.
posted by beagle at 6:29 PM on August 14, 2014

Shit. NYC crowd chanting, "Are we being detained" and saying someone is being held hostage. There are repeated calls on the livestream for 911 to be called. People in the crowd are now chanting, "I can't breathe."
posted by brina at 6:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

At the DC NMOS event, I overheard a kid probably 8 or 9, asking his (presumably) mother "Is this where we went for Trayvon?" It's heartbreaking to think that he associates the park with vigils for murdered black teenagers.

Completely awful. And yet, it makes me hopeful that he obviously has great parents/adults in his life that teach him why Trayvon and Michael are important.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

Just got back from the #NMOS14 event in San Antonio. Around 100+ people attended, the only police presence was a single cop on a bicycle tailing the group. We marched to the courthouse and then to the police department downtown. All was peaceful and well organized.

Apparently quite different from in NYC...
posted by sotonohito at 6:33 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

NYPD never disappoints. And just when this day seemed to be getting less than completely terrible.
posted by dysh at 6:35 PM on August 14, 2014

NYPD white shirts now saying that they're letting people out in small groups. Protesters planning on going back to Union Square.
posted by dysh at 6:37 PM on August 14, 2014

I went to a NMOS thing in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. There, the cops didn't cause problems, and it was decided that people would continue to meet there on Thursdays at 7pm to organize. The general vibe was, we're tired of having these rallies over and over again, let's actually do something. It's #bedstuynmos if anyone is interested.

Personally I will be back. Might as well use all this white privilege I got sitting around.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:40 PM on August 14, 2014 [14 favorites]

A stunning change in tone radiated through the suburban streets where protests had turned violent each of the last four evenings following the police shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown.

"Had turned violent." It just happened! Like a volatile chemical reaction! Put the people of Ferguson and a bunch of police officers together and flash bang! I wonder how the tinderbox kept from sparking for a fifth night in the row. Maybe something changed. Maybe one of the variables was altered. Were the citizens of Ferguson swapped out overnight for more peaceful, sensible people?

Oh, wait, what's that? It is in fact the police officers who were switched out overnight? Huh.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 6:45 PM on August 14, 2014 [56 favorites]

showbiz_liz, I wanted to go to the Bed Stuy thing but was afraid of going alone as a whitish lady, and my partner couldn't accompany me. Maybe next time we can buddy up. #nmosmefi?

How did the Manhattan protesters end up at 42nd and 9th?
posted by brina at 6:48 PM on August 14, 2014

Oh, wait, what's that? It is in fact the police officers who were switched out overnight? Huh.

Sunday night was a bit of a Do The Right Thing moment, but yeah, it was the cops that showed up spoiling for a fight subsequently. But the dude that wrote that sentence has been there on the ground the whole damn time and even got arrested for it, so I'm not gonna be that hard on him about that particular phrasing here.

I'm just mildly relieved I'm probably not going to be up all night staring at my phone in horror again, and majorly relieved that these people don't have to go through yet another terrifying night of police brutality.

This doesn't magically fix everything, but it's at least a big improvement.
posted by sparkletone at 6:49 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Radley Balko: After Ferguson, how should police respond to protests?
posted by homunculus at 6:49 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

showbiz_liz, I wanted to go to the Bed Stuy thing but was afraid of going alone as a whitish lady, and my partner couldn't accompany me. Maybe next time we can buddy up. #nmosmefi?

It was totally fine, there were a lot of white and other non black people there (though it was majority black). I definitely want to go next week.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:53 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chicago NMOS pretty sedate. Ended in doing laps around Daley Plaza and then a couple of slightly larger laps through north loop.
posted by PMdixon at 7:05 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

emptythought: What i'm worried about now, is since this guy got it under control seemingly... that the general narrative will be "yay he fixed it! state cops were the good guys problem solved it's all over" and the media will completely shift away from discussing it, and other than people like us on sites like these the attention focused on it will essentially be over.

That is a major concern for sure. The hopeful part of me wonders if just maybe the numerous incidents like this in the recent past, plus the unexpected introduction of apparent goodwill and real leadership from Johnson, plus an actual bill to reform 1033, plus the Manning/Snowden revelations, may just give police and civil rights issues some better staying power in the national consciousness.

None too soon, either. Reforms take time, and the investments behind police militarization will not be easily discouraged.

Meanwhile the long-term economic slide continues, bringing with it the instability anyone paying attention knows we must expect. Overly powerful surveillance and police infrastructure may be put to some grim applications by a fascist movement for which lean times and the current ineffective government regime make our society rather fertile ground.
posted by maniabug at 7:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wanted to go to the Bed Stuy thing but was afraid of going alone as a whitish lady, and my partner couldn't accompany me

why? I was invited and went to a post Trayvon vigil with my very blond friend.

Like...don't be afraid of BedStuy.
posted by sweetkid at 7:17 PM on August 14, 2014 [7 favorites]

(I live in Bed Stuy. I wasn't sure what the gathering would be like, or how our 79th and 81st precincts would behave.)
posted by brina at 7:20 PM on August 14, 2014

Looks like twitter user small_affair has your New Orleans #MikeBrown info pumping, if you're interested. A small-ish group marched from Lafayette Square down to the French Quarter police station before entering and demanding no more police violence.
posted by komara at 7:21 PM on August 14, 2014

This makes me really hopeful: St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson taking a selfie with a protestor. This is a CHANGED atmosphere.
posted by supermassive at 7:29 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

@SunnyHostin "A source close to the investigation tells CNN the Ferguson Police plan to release the name of the officer who shot Michael Brown tomorrow."
posted by cashman at 7:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Miss Packnett ‏@MsPackyetti 3m
It feels like we won the Super Bowl tonight in #Ferguson! Cars honking, music playing, running into family members...#DontShoot

Antonio French ‏@AntonioFrench 3m
The young men with "masks" on their faces who last night were returning tear gas drums to police, tonight are directing traffic in #Ferguson

Courtesy a twitter list that a fellow mefite posted upthread.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:37 PM on August 14, 2014 [8 favorites]

Paul Hampel, St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter, tweets:

#MikeMike STL County prosecutor Bob McCulloch called me. Said Nixon replacing Chief Belmar with HWP Capt Johnson was illegal, disgraceful. (1)

#MikeMike "Nixon denigrated the men and women of the County Police Department and what they've done." --McCulloch (2)

#MikeMike "I have great respect for Capt. Johnson. And I hope I am wrong but I think Nixon's action put a lot of people in danger."McCulloch (3)

Earlier this afternoon, State Senator Nasheed requested McCulloch to step down and let a special prosecutor take over the investigation.
posted by zix at 7:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [28 favorites]

Historical "Hands Up" photo: Voting Activist Fannie Lou Hamer, 1963
posted by emjaybee at 7:46 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Somebody upthread somewhere claimed the Ferguson police had trained with the IDF. If that's true, I hope the IDF will take some cues from the highway patrol response here and its effects. Trying to dominate people into submission is the worst possible way to go about achieving peace and stability in virtually any major or minor conflict. It just makes people mad down in their bones to be treated that way.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [6 favorites]

I just home from the NY protest that ended up kettled on 42nd and I don't know. Forgive me, I have a searing migraine so this may be incoherent. My friend live tweeted it. Nice to know there were other Mefites there, wish we could have said hello. If you witnessed the exchange between the ill woman and the officers holding the nets - that was me. I hadn't had anything to drink for hours, combined with the lack of air when we were densely packed together triggered a migraine and nausea. The cops said they'd only let me out if I took an ambulance, I said no because I don't have insurance, can't afford. They then accused me of faking it so I gave up and sat down somewhere near the middle. Jason Moody (not sure on the name) and someone else were arrested for trying to get through the barricades. Media were let out. We were not. Have no idea how that was legal and what the hell the NYPD were trying to accomplish. Much respect to the people of Ferguson for enduring even worse bullshit.
posted by Partario at 7:56 PM on August 14, 2014 [50 favorites]

Partario, I'm so glad that you're safe! Take care, and get some much needed rest and relaxation!
posted by spinifex23 at 8:01 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Partario, wish I could favorite your comment more than once, and agreed, take care.
posted by sweetkid at 8:28 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ferguson: disarming tactics of highway patrol pay dividends as calm descends

I didn't realize Ronald Johnson was from Ferguson. That is great.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:31 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

DynamiteToast: "consensus is forming."

One of my co-workers (mechanic shop) has a buddy who stops in for a beer after his shift. He had a print out today with a helicopter lowering an oversize bucket of KFC with a quote "we tried pepper sauce, we tried watermelon, we're certain this fried chicken will calm them down" or some such shit. I asked them which century they were in.

Yeah, there's a consensus.
posted by notsnot at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

In other words, how do they get any justice? Has any of that been even mentioned?
posted by Windopaene at 8:48 PM on August 14, 2014

Golden Eternity: " I didn't realize Ronald Johnson was from Ferguson. That is great."

Great and, I think, not coincidental. Cities and towns whose police live mostly elsewhere seem to fairly consistently have problems. If the police lived in the places they're expected to police, it seems pretty obvious, given human nature, that they'd have a much more complex and nuanced view of the people they're policing.

(Note, I live in Oakland, where the statistic thrown around is that 93% of OPD live elsewhere and where a Federal judge has had oversight of the police department for the past 11 years due to gross police misconduct.)
posted by Lexica at 8:49 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

But what has been accomplished. OTHER HAN COPS NOT BUSTING HEADS?

I completely understand your cynicism. I'm hoping the answer to "what has been accomplished" is police forces across the country watching how treating citizens like members of their own community rather than enemy combatants has much better results. And perhaps more realistically, that the American people see this, so the next time something like this happens, it will be harder to justify the actions of the police.

Also, this is hopefully only the beginning. What was accomplished today was that the people of Ferguson were able to gather without police oppression. I don't know what will be accomplished tomorrow, but I'm certainly more hopeful than I was this time last night.
posted by dysh at 8:57 PM on August 14, 2014 [20 favorites]

I'd like to see "the next time this happens" not actually occur...
posted by Windopaene at 9:19 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'd like to see "the next time this happens" not actually occur...

Yeah, me too. Realistically, I think it's unlikely that every backwards racist police force in this country (all of them?) is taking notes right now. I would love it if it stopped today and never ever happened again, but I imagine it's going to take a lot more agitating, and fighting, and not forgetting, for things to significantly change. And I think part of that change is coming from Ferguson right now.
posted by dysh at 9:23 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Windopaene: “In other words, how do they get any justice? Has any of that been even mentioned?”

I just finished watching the special live 11 o'clock All In with Chris Hayes from the QuickTrip parking lot in Ferguson. I'll round up some links when it comes up online.

Given what I saw, it seems to me that the people who live there, the ones still out on the street at 10 o'clock local time honking their horns and protesting, know exactly what they're about. They want justice for Mike Brown. They want an end to racist police in their town. They absolutely will not stop until they get it.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:25 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

I'd be careful driving around St. Louis for a while. It appears there could be a large surplus of angry traffic police in the area.

I'ts St. Louis. There's always a large surplus of angry traffic police.

Actually, that's what I have to report from my drive to and from North County earlier: At least for today, the usual speed traps south of Ferguson on Interstate 170 weren't in effect. So that was cool.

It's more of a sideline topic and should be approached that way, but for the people wondering about Facebook feeds, here's a Medium piece on Ferguson and algorithmic filtering.

I was disappointed, though, that an article about the net-neutrality implications of what has been happening didn't address the Charter-engineered scrambling of local news during the early action in Ferguson. I've seen it said that both Charter and AT&T also deliberately slowed North County Internet service during protest there this week. This was just like San Francisco's shutdown of cell service on BART during protests there a few years ago, and has huge implications.

"That was yesterday, this is today."

Man, I've worked for dudes who said stuff like this when challenged: "OK, well that's in the past." Yes, a past that was horrible for me and others, motherfucker!

Agh. What a week. I'm just glad it's finally calming down and respect is returning.
posted by limeonaire at 9:42 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Ferguson is not the perfect neighborhood, but it's a fairly nice neighborhood, with charming old homes and big trees. Many of the neighborhoods are very close-knit.

Here, you can "meet the neighbors" in a Ferguson neighborhood.

Here are some examples of Ferguson's lovely old houses. Ferguson also has a 25 restaurants, a microbrewery, a romantic wine bar, beautiful parks, gorgeous historical churches, a great farmer's market, a community garden where residents plant their own food and flowers.

Ferguson has a cycling club. It has a running club.. Look at how the community turns out for the annual twilight run -- it's great! You can learn about urban homesteading at Earthdance Organic Farm. You can take classes at the Northern Arts Council.

Ferguson could be your neighborhood, it could be my neighborhood. It's not a bad neighborhood by any means. If this could happen in Ferguson, is it going to happen elsewhere? Why do the police feel they need to be so heavily armed and so antagonistic towards the residents? Such a sad situation.
posted by Ostara at 9:48 PM on August 14, 2014 [33 favorites]

I love your 'flaccid penis' comment, emptythought, absolute gold, but..

There are plenty of full-fledged fascist who'd say "wait till the investigation is over before [jumping] to conclusions" anytime authorities do evil shit. Racism brings out the circumstantial fascists, but at least some would say that about any case. At least one would even say that about the 8 year old girl who got tasered or donut contest guy (white) probably. Conversely, there are always anti-government types who reveal their fascists tendencies when race becomes involved, which is maybe what you meant.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Jesus, what do we need to do to get Ron Johnson some kind of national fucking medal. He deserves the most kick-ass medal that this nation has to give. Whatever the US version of a knighthood is.

The guy who was photographed throwing the tear gas back at the police is twitter user @eyeFLOODpanties:

I don't think "da man wit the chips" was throwing it back at police...i think he was throwing it away frm him nd kids he was standin near
posted by triggerfinger at 9:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

We need shirts made! 🙌 RT
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:08 PM on August 14, 2014 [3 favorites]

Anyone know the photographer who took that photo?
posted by triggerfinger at 10:25 PM on August 14, 2014

Mike Brown protest in London
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:30 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sorry, just found it. Photographer is Robert Cohen of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (@kodacohen)
posted by triggerfinger at 10:32 PM on August 14, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sorry, that's not London I don't think. License plate doesn't look right for one thing. NY or Chicago maybe.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:41 PM on August 14, 2014

All In with Chris Hayes – Live from Ferguson, 14 August 2014

8 pm

11 pm

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

I will be joined tonight by an eyewitness to the killing of Michael Brown, and you will hear that the facts as this witness presents them support a charge of murder in the first degree.

P.S. I'm not super sure about the order on the All In videos, but it should be close to as-aired. The Last Word show had other segments, but I couldn't make MSNBC's website cooperate in giving me direct URLs. The show link in this postscript should let you watch in as-aired order.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:49 PM on August 14, 2014 [10 favorites]

Conversely, there are always anti-government types who reveal their fascists tendencies when race becomes involved, which is maybe what you meant.

Yep. That's the type. And I very much believe anyone calling that out in this situation is a closet fascist, and possibly a racist as well. I don't buy the whole "people say racist things but they aren't racists" but either. This is saying a racist thing, and you're probably some degree of racist if you say it. No one would be saying this garbage if it was a white kid walking home. It's just like the trayvon situation in this respect.*

Jesus, what do we need to do to get Ron Johnson some kind of national fucking medal. He deserves the most kick-ass medal that this nation has to give. Whatever the US version of a knighthood is.

this Is what it would be, IMO, and it should be broadcast on national tv. Like interupt what's on, on every major news station and have Obama speak, award him, and let him speak for as long as he wants. Dude is a fucking national hero.

sorry for not doing my usual big thread comment attributions. This thread is shorting my phone out ;_;

* <3 my phone though. Such a loyal little doggie. It tried to autocorrect "situation" to "disgusting". I've taught it well!
posted by emptythought at 10:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [2 favorites]

An important St. Louis official is unhappy with tonight's policing changes - Bob McCulloch sounds like an absolute shitbag.
posted by Artw at 11:06 PM on August 14, 2014 [9 favorites]

Sorry, that's not London I don't think. License plate doesn't look right for one thing. NY or Chicago maybe.

That's NYC: East 19th St. and Broadway, just north of Union Square. It sort of shows why the kettling happened. (Which is not to excuse it! Kettling is awful and incendiary.) But:

You can't march in the middle of the street in NYC without a permit. Sidewalks, yes. Roadway, no.

As soon as cops see people walking in the street they use it as an excuse to act. As a result, non-permitted marches often turn chaotic fast. A supremely disciplined group might be able to keep it to the sidewalks, but more often, such marches bunch up and attract joiners, and end up in the middle of traffic, and cops treat that as a confrontation.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:11 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

emptythought, great idea, but I'd go one step higher and say the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Awarded for "an especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of the United States, world peace, cultural or other significant public or private endeavors."

Not only did he immediately diffuse a highly volatile situation, but he presented a clear example of how shit should be done and the dramatically different outcome that occurs as a result.

I think "significant public endeavor" sums up his actions pretty well.
posted by triggerfinger at 11:13 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

David Simon's letter to Mr. Thomas Jackson, Chief of Police, Ferguson, Missouri
posted by Artw at 11:15 PM on August 14, 2014 [11 favorites]

Is there some kind of anti-medal we could grant to Bob McCulloch? At this point, firing seems too good for him. The man is a national disgrace.

"Nixon replacing Chief Belmar with HWP Capt Johnson was illegal, disgraceful."
Oh, I'm sorry, did someone take your appalling and dangerous shitshow away and put an actual adult in charge?

"Nixon denigrated the men and women of the County Police Department"
The men and women of the County Police Department just spent the better part of a week denigrating and endangering the citizens they were supposed to be protecting. Fuck them, and fuck you, too, McCulloch.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:19 PM on August 14, 2014 [32 favorites]

I guess *someone* had to think residents being terrorized nightly by assholes in Third Reich cosplay was actually a good thing, that it's the guy allegedly investigating the shooting is rather shocking.
posted by Artw at 11:25 PM on August 14, 2014 [25 favorites]

What is it with these little suburban/outlying police departments anyway that they produce a culture so toxic? Beyond the typical militarized drug war stuff I mean. Is it just the lack of oversight?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:35 PM on August 14, 2014

emptythought: "That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america."

Not even close. For instance, my small hometown is 6700 people, 97.8% white and only 0.7% African American, and I'd bet money that not even it is the whitest municipality in America.
posted by namewithoutwords at 11:42 PM on August 14, 2014

"She a thug foreal for coming back out. Pastor don't play about her youth."
posted by naju at 11:50 PM on August 14, 2014 [20 favorites]

"She a thug foreal for coming back out. Pastor don't play about her youth."

There is something weirdly wonderful seeing "thug" turned on its side like that.
posted by lkc at 11:54 PM on August 14, 2014 [5 favorites]

Defuse, like a bomb, not diffuse, like a showerhead....

Yeah, that's Broadway and 19th -- GSV for comparison. You can even see that hand-drawn sign at the left in some of the collections of photos from the Union Square event [FP photo].

A group connected to the Wisconsin HOPE Lab is raising funds for Mike Brown's younger siblings to attend college.

Is it just the lack of oversight?

I deleted a post I was writing about this maybe two nights back -- it seemed derail-y and potentially understood as fight-y -- but I think there is a problem with small-town departments generally. I've seen it around here and only in one instance was it connected to race. Smaller departments have fewer ways to vet applicants and tend to get those who've been rejected by larger, better departments. They can have high turnover or perhaps worse, almost no turnover. They don't get the training opportunities, they don't have enough interfacing with other departments, and then they are typically overseen by amateur municipal leadership (itself with turnover issues and narrow institutional knowledge). I'd love it if we would somehow change to the British model where every "constabulary" is sort of a regional amalgam that has the breadth and depth of a big-city department, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon given the political structure of the US.
posted by dhartung at 11:55 PM on August 14, 2014 [4 favorites]

“‘Let’s put away the toys, boys’: Ferguson spotlights police militarization,” Naureen Khan, Al Jazeera America, 14 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 12:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

The atmosphere in Ferguson spawned a new hashtag, a portmanteau of #party and #protest: #partest.

Best tweet of the night.
posted by dhartung at 1:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Best tweet of the night.

What the fuck, a bunch of people partying on a thomas the tank engine little kids theme park train deal is like... a video clip i'd expect to see from the playa, not ferguson.

Seems like they took one of the shittiest situations of the 21st century thus far and turned it into my kind of party.

but I think there is a problem with small-town departments generally. I've seen it around here and only in one instance was it connected to race. Smaller departments have fewer ways to vet applicants and tend to get those who've been rejected by larger, better departments.

My worst, most abusive counters with the police and some of my shittier memories of life in general involve piece of shit smalltown cops. I'd back this theory-horse.

I almost spent the night in jail for "possession of stolen property" for pushing a rabbit in a shopping cart i found on the side of the highway. The cop followed me for hours, having said if i picked up _anything_ on the road and didn't just carry the rabbit, i was getting in the car.*

That was by far the most surreal and absurd police experience i've ever had. But the forehead vein bulging, eyes popping out anger of that cop that i dared to ask him "why", which resulted in the whole stupid situation is a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY AUTHORITAEEE" attitude i've gotten from a lot of chode smalltown cops. SPD sucks, as i've said above, but smalltown cops are a completely different kind of garbage animal.

And as i said above, i'm not even a blatantly visible minority. I'm just barely non-white enough that people ask me "So where are you from?". The cops generally leave me alone. But for years i dreaded going to small towns because of the shitty experiences i've had. And whenever i'm in a small town and i even see a cop car or a cop i'm like "Fuuuuuuuuuuuck, ugh, what now". But at least for me, it's not the threat of being shot, just the threat of being harassed and threatened and having my time wasted.

I can absolutely see how visible minority police treatment + smalltown chode behavior could lead to this not being that outside the venn diagram overlap of what would happen.

*There's a lot more to this story, and it's honestly pretty hilarious, but that's not really my point.
posted by emptythought at 3:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

"I have great respect for Capt. Johnson. And I hope I am wrong but I think Nixon's action put a lot of people in danger." -- McCulloch

I masochistically read a bunch of the comments yesterday (before any of these changes) on various stories at the St. Loius paper's website, including the editorial, and this came up a lot. A whole bunch of (white) people are absolutely positive that there's a huge rioting crowd that is going to burn down whole neighborhoods and it's only the police who've kept them in check.

A lot of people sneeringly wrote that they "hoped" the people who were critical of the police would get what they deserved if the police weren't there and the town burned.

People like McCulloch were very sure (and will remain so, no matter how often history proves them wrong) of their view of things; and this is how the county police see things, this is how a large number of white Americans see things. Even though Ferguson is a middle-class/working class town and protester violence has been extremely limited this week, these racists see black faces and are just absolutely sure that it's only police power that is preventing mass rioting and looting. This is how they see things. This is how they saw things fifty years ago, it's how they see things now.

And I can anticipate their rationalization about why things have cooled down, it'll be all about Johnson. But it really isn't. Johnson's words and his marching with the protesters wouldn't have made a difference if, come nightfall, there were still police looking and behaving like an occupying army, tossing off tear gas indiscriminately. The racists will always see it about how the protesters behave and never about how the police behave and I think we should be leery of inadvertently promoting this view by focusing on Johnson and his relationship to the community because it makes it seem like it's all about Johnson personally persuading the community to change their behavior. But it wasn't their behavior which changed first, it was the lack of a fucking police army tossing off tear gas and rubber bullets and harassing the media which changed.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:38 AM on August 15, 2014 [27 favorites]

So yes, the mood and attitude has changed. They're won't likely be the kind of violent police reactions tonight. But what has been accomplished. OTHER HAN COPS NOT BUSTING HEADS? If I wee a black Ferguson resident, I'd still be pretty pissed off. And 10,000 black protesters in a St. Louis suburb not gathering and being pissed off doesn't change anything in regards to the situation that they live in everyday.

Yeah, on the one hand Johnson is obviously handling this the right way and that's to be commended, but on the other hand calling it a win because people can march peacefully without getting tear gassed, dog'd, and otherwise abused seems to leave aside what the point of the protests was in the first place. Michael Brown is still dead and the power structure in Ferguson is still rotten to the core, as evidenced by the prosecutor's comments.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:42 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Yeah, on the one hand Johnson is obviously handling this the right way and that's to be commended, but on the other hand calling it a win because people can march peacefully without getting tear gassed, dog'd, and otherwise abused seems to leave aside what the point of the protests was in the first place

While that's true, we know that the DOJ, FBI and other agencies are now starting their long investigation of Michael Brown's death. It is not being ignored or swept under a rug. The police misconduct in Ferguson started a completely separate problem, where the citizens of Ferguson were unable to exercise their Constitutional rights. That, at least for now, has been fixed.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't have cable or broadcast TV, and I'm always struck by how different the news coverage is if you rely on the internet, but the New York Times coverage this morning really does seem to be making this a referendum on the militarization of the police force. I don't know what's at the top of other people's Times pages, but mine is In Wake of Clashes, Calls to Demilitarize Police, and then New Tack on Unrest Eases Tension in Missouri. (That one is about Captain Johnson, but it focuses on his decisions about policing tactics. Sample quote: 'Kimaly Diouf, co-owner of Rehoboth Pharmacy, said the reason for the difference was simple: “Because they’re not tear gassing us tonight.”') They've also got a Room for Debate on the question Are the Police Too Heavily Armed, and an Op-Ed, which also shows up at the top of my front page, Get the Military off of Main Street. It's possible that they've got some sort of algorithm that is pushing those to the top of my front page, and other people aren't seeing them as prominently, but the Times, at least, doesn't seem to be playing this as "heroic good black cop calms down those other, bad, out-of-control black people."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

Again, there are plenty of non-race-based fascists who'd absolutely be "saying this garbage if it was a white kid walking home", emptythought, so you mean "none of my retard facebook friends" rather than "no one". ;)

In truth, our law enforcement has become based upon intimidation and corruption right down at its very core. Ain't just a statement about black people anymore because rich white kids trying to make the world a better place get targeted too. We should literally remove every cops, every prosecutor, and every judge and rebuild our law enforcement from the ground up, because almost all those people believe in intimidation not justice.

All the anti-police sites I mentioned here have been working hard to sell white people the idea that the same mentality of intimidation is at work when they execute a black kid on the street, taser a white girl to braindeath, invent new charges to cow a defendant into pleading guilty, etc.

Is the system worse for black people? Yes absolutely. And those race conditional fascists you mentioned contribute enormously. We need the idea that law enforcement through intimidation impacts white people too though.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I cried tears of relief last night seeing the de-escalation. Right now the selfies-with-cops mood in Ferguson seems like a miracle to me.

I'm thinking about all the in-group affiliation that cops and reporters have signalled this week.

When the police in Ferguson killed Mike Brown, it saddened and horrified me, and reporters reported on it. And then when out-of-control cops arrested reporters it roused the protectiveness of the media elite. (When cops arrest reporters, it's a signal that your privilege might not protect you any more.) But reporter Matt Pearce from the LA Times heard about the arrest and called the police chief to ask about it, and the police chief got those reporters out of jail lickety-split.

(I think another thing that deeply disturbed me was knowing how long Brown's body lay in the street, how long his family was barred from, you know, doing the things civilized humans do to mourn the dead bodies of other humans and treat those bodies with reverence. It reminded me of stories reported from Iraq in the mid-2000s. Residents saw dead or dying people in the streets and did nothing, stepped past them, because anyone who stopped to help would be the next target of armed men. I can't find those pieces, although I did find something close. (And speaking of journalists, remember this? "The police chief of Najaf, Ghaleb al Jazairi, wanted to talk to the press on Wednesday night, August 25, so he abducted 30 journalists at gunpoint.") I had to get my head around the idea that journalists had to cover the police in a US suburb as though the journalists are war reporters, and that teenagers in Ferguson were living out "Scenes from the Suburbs".)

One reason Johnson's such an effective replacement is that he can demonstrate his affiliation with Ferguson citizenry, that he is one of them. Also: "I am a black man with black sons." (I'm agreeing, though, that the big reason is: reasonable community policing, well-planned, with conversation, in short-sleeved shirts and without freaking tanks and tear gas.)

And until I read this piece by David Simon I hadn't drawn the connection between the Ferguson police refusing to name Mike Brown's killer and "Stop Snitchin'":

Your department, in order to solve crimes and maintain order, is dependent on the cooperation of witnesses — fellow citizens willing to trust in the process of arrest and prosecution, and in their own personal safety should they properly contribute to that process. Yet by offering up the dishonorable claim that your department, and all the authority of the supporting law enforcement and judicial communities of Missouri, cannot protect a single officer from a series of unsubstantiated threats, or that the officer might be more vulnerable to public ridicule than, say, Mr. Brown was vulnerable to actual police gunfire, you have made this question entirely relevant:

If Ferguson police can’t protect one of their own — a fellow officer who is armed, who is allied with an entire department of armed comrades, who are themselves buttressed by their jurisdiction’s prosecutorial arm, who have the full weight of the law at hand in support of that officer — then how in hell are they going to protect me when I go down to the courthouse and testify? How can they ask me, an ordinary citizen with no armament, alliance or authority, to stand up in open court and be identified?

The answer is you can’t.

posted by brainwane at 5:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [41 favorites]

"What is it with these little suburban/outlying police departments anyway that they produce a culture so toxic? Beyond the typical militarized drug war stuff I mean. Is it just the lack of oversight?"

Some of it is fear and lack of training; your typical small-town or suburban department doesn't deal a lot with violent crime, large protests, drugs & gangs, etc., and it shows. And the small-town cops get nervous, because they don't know how to handle the situation. That tends to lead to escalation. In the Chicago suburb where I grew up, violent or larger crimes, ongoing situations, etc., virtually always led to a liaison from the Chicago PD or the county sheriff coming to town to assist our cops in a low-experience situation. (When they had they first murder in 17 years, the local cops basically cordoned off the body and called the Chicago PD to come out and deal with it, because they didn't want to damage evidence by screwing it up.)

Local to me, we had a small-town department call in the city department drugs-and-gangs unit to deal with some gang activity in the small town, and the city department ended up asking the small-town guys to stop carrying their guns when the city officers were out with them, because the small-town guys were making them so fucking nervous by wanting to draw on everyone and escalate every incident. (I believe the city was invited to quit providing assistance at that point, which is sad, but the point is not so much the outcome as the fact that a big-city cop would make that request.)

Working with schools and their security during the spate of school shootings, it's been very interesting to be in the middle of people (citizens, some police) who are very nervous about violence in schools and want visible, heavily armed officers there for security; and officers highly-trained in working with schools and students, who want unarmed security officers in polo shirts who joke around with the kids and have a lot of training in social work and mental health as well as drugs-and-gangs.

I was so pleased when Johnson went down to be WITH the protestors; when people are that angry, the only thing you can do is have someone in authority come down and talk with people. People want to be heard. The governor and mayor should have been out there on the second day, walking amongst the protestors and talking to them.

If people get nothing else from this, Johnson has given a dramatic example that the road to public safety isn't "escalate and threaten until everyone gets scared and goes home" but "de-escalate and listen and allow people to express themselves without feeling threatened or silenced."

There are definitely issues with lower-quality cops in smaller departments (they tend to have lower pay and lower pensions) and lack of ongoing training (smaller budget for it, fewer in-house guys to do it) and lack of experience in a lot of more unusual situations. Short of regional departments like the UK does, regional cooperatives can help, where suburban cops have access to big-city training, and sometimes even where officers go on "exchanges" to see each others' departments. Also Chiefs who really CARE about policing and take a lot of time to study it, they make a big difference. They set a tone and their policies for the department are good, and they're advocates for good policing practices when talking to elected officials and convincing elected officials how to allocate public safety dollars and priorities. I'm sure there's lots more, that's just the bits of stuff I've seen from my "policing schools" perspective.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [35 favorites]

The issues with small town police seem like something that the federal government is actually well situated to assist with, even if they couldn't "solve" the problems. Funding for training increased salaries, providing resources and incentives for coordination with larger departments, those are all things the federal government can provide that will help prevent things like this from happening. If the federal government, rather than providing discount tanks, provided funding for training on how to deescalate situations like this, it might not have prevented the problem, but it couldn't have hurt.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I liked another officer's phrasing here, demonstrating understanding:

“We appreciate them being out here,” said Major Ronnie Robinson. “They are seeking justice and that’s what they’re going to get.

“Any time a community and a people are willing to break the law to get the law, you’ve gotta pay attention to that,” said Robinson. “They have cried out to us and now we need to give them the attention they deserve.”

posted by brainwane at 5:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [26 favorites]

But in this case, the solution actually turned out to be the Missouri Highway Patrolmen just NOT being dicks. They maintained order, but they marched with the protestors, they talked to them, and they didn't treat people like, or call them animals.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

"If people get nothing else from this, Johnson has given a dramatic example that the road to public safety isn't 'escalate and threaten until everyone gets scared and goes home' but 'de-escalate and listen and allow people to express themselves without feeling threatened or silenced."

I think everyone who is willing to hear this will hear this from this example. The problem, though, is that a whole lot of people see this situation in very different terms.

Which is to say, if you're truly concerned about public safety, you'll see it one way. If you're truly concerned about the "message", you'll see it another. And on the conservative side, there's a very strong propensity to see this in terms of messaging -- the message being specifically that people (especially black people) shouldn't disrespect police authority. For people with that view, police violence and protester injuries and deaths aren't bad things, they're good things.

And those people will learn nothing from this because de-escalation is, for them, contrary to the message they think should be sent.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:55 AM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

McCulloch sounds like a piece of work.I can understand when people say stupid things when a reporter calls them, but he called the reporter specifically to say stupid things. That's not a sign that that person has good judgement.
posted by rtha at 5:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

emptythought: "That is shockingly white. That might be the highest number i've seen or heard of in america."

I think I win the "how white is your hometown" award. In the 2010 census, my town of ~8000 was 98.78% white, 0.44% Asian, 0.32% African American, 0.31% mixed. Until I went to college, I had met exactly two black people in my life.
posted by specialagentwebb at 6:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

CNN is reporting they are going to release the name of the officer who murdered Michael Brown
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:13 AM on August 15, 2014

Live video. The Ferguson police chief is on his way to the QuickTrip to give a statement.
posted by Foosnark at 6:15 AM on August 15, 2014

Oh, of course if they had to release the name they'd do it in the most dickish way possible.
posted by Artw at 6:17 AM on August 15, 2014

I think I win the "how white is your hometown" award.

Livonia, Michigan, a major bedroom-community suburb of Detroit, was over 100,000 people and over 99 percent white in the 1970s. It's plummeted to only 92 percent (and around 95K total) in the 2010 census, and the old woman I bought my house from a few years ago said at the closing that she was getting sick of all the black people.
posted by Etrigan at 6:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Oh, sure, you liked it when the cop who didn't tear gas you or shoot into crowds came here, but somehow it's off limits for me? What do you people want from us?"
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:20 AM on August 15, 2014

I'm just hoping he announces his resignation at the same time.
posted by Foosnark at 6:21 AM on August 15, 2014

There was a wonderful interview on All Things Considered last night that brought me to tears.

The photo referenced in the story is number 19 from this article.
posted by bq at 6:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Other than the fact that it was burned, what is the significance of the QuickTrip? Why does everything seem to revolve around it?
posted by desjardins at 6:24 AM on August 15, 2014

White St. Louis Has Some Awful Things to Say About Ferguson
posted by Artw at 6:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Foosnark: "I'm just hoping he announces his resignation at the same time."

I was just thinking that the only other thing I want to hear from this guy is that he's resigning.
posted by specialagentwebb at 6:24 AM on August 15, 2014

Last night the protest march ended there I believe, I think the protestors themselves have assigned the significance to it...
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:25 AM on August 15, 2014

bq's link to All Things Considered is a must-listen. I had to pull my car over because I burst into tears.
posted by desjardins at 6:25 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

That QT is almost the nearest place to gather that isn't someone's front yard.
posted by Foosnark at 6:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Am I crazy, or do I correctly remember that there were people up in arms about Boston putting a community on lockdown while they were looking for the second Boston Marathon bomber?

The thing I was most struck by during that was the day and night difference between Boston PD and assorted federal agencies and the panicky, trigger-happy dipshits of the LAPD and other LA-area cops during the Christopher Dorner affair.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:30 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Apparently the press conference will be at the QT simply because that's where the media trucks have all set up.
posted by Foosnark at 6:31 AM on August 15, 2014

White St. Louis Has Some Awful Things to Say About Ferguson

See also my entire family.
posted by empath at 6:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Right now the photo is #43 of 46 I think:

Aug. 13, 2014 The Rev. Willis Johnson (right) confronts 18-year-old Joshua Wilson as protesters defy police and block traffic on W. Florissant Avenue at Canfield Drive in Ferguson, Mo., on Wednesday. Johnson convinced Wilson that he should leave and avoid arrest. Sid Hastings/For The Washington Post

posted by brainwane at 6:33 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

One 'fond' memory of the Boston/Cambridge lockdown was the neighboring city of Somerville sending out a msg saying something to the effect of "yes there's a lockdown, but remember your street parking scheme, and be sure to go out and move your car if it's on the wrong side, because otherwise tickets."
posted by shortfuse at 6:34 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

What is it with these little suburban/outlying police departments anyway that they produce a culture so toxic? Beyond the typical militarized drug war stuff I mean. Is it just the lack of oversight?

Good other stuff from people above, but I think nobody has mentioned what I think is the biggest driver of this stuff - these smaller and/or more suburban communities are populated by vocal and strident people who are change and disruption adverse. And the communities by their nature have less variety of activity. They're twitchy the moment there's something that diverges from the norm and the norm is pretty damned bland by the standards of any of us who live in or like cities.

So that person who thinks it's funny to push a grocery cart around after dark? Potential problem and they are "where they don't belong." They're going to leave that in someone's yard and the department will get calls. If they walk up on someone's porch drunk it'll be a freak-out incident of some sort, assuming if they don't shoot the person. They're part of a culture that prizes minimal change and wants it back to where it was as quick as possible. Their police force knows it and internalizes it... and doesn't necessarily know how to deal with things when shit really diverges from the usual.
posted by phearlez at 6:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

There was a relevant story on story corps this morning, also.
posted by empath at 6:37 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Grantland: The Front Lines of Ferguson
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:37 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Police chief Jackson is at QT right now.
posted by shortfuse at 6:42 AM on August 15, 2014

Good other stuff from people above, but I think nobody has mentioned what I think is the biggest driver of this stuff - these smaller and/or more suburban communities are populated by vocal and strident people who are change and disruption adverse.

And whose #1 concern is "property values." At least that is the dog whistle they use when they don't want low-income housing or mosques or whatever.
posted by desjardins at 6:43 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

What is it with these little suburban/outlying police departments anyway that they produce a culture so toxic? Beyond the typical militarized drug war stuff I mean. Is it just the lack of oversight?

Other responses above hit part of it, but I can also add: there is also a homogeny of thought in small towns that leads to a lot of black-and-white, binary responses to things. And to some people getting hit harder by the police because they're already the outsiders anyway.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:43 AM on August 15, 2014

brainwane: "Right now the photo is #43 of 46 I think:"

Direct link to the photo in question. It's a powerful image.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:45 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

A good quote from Balko's article about police response dovetails nicely with the small town PD question.

“When you establish arbitrary rules that have no basis in law, the police then feel they have to enforce those rules or they look illegitimate. They can set these rules with the best of intentions, but they just end up creating more problems for themselves.”

He's talking about protest rules and trying to create (actually not necessarily legal) constraints like concluding times, but it covers the same things. The PD tries to create constraints around community norms (we don't have big gatherings here on the soccer field, you'll kill the grass!) and then feel beholden to stick to it out of pride. Which they'll claim is about keeping respect for their authoritah, but I know what I think is the bigger impetus.
posted by phearlez at 6:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Guy's name is Darren Wilson.
posted by emjaybee at 6:48 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yamiche Alcindor ‏@Yamiche 1m
Jackson says police are going to be releasing dispatch information and video.

Wow, there's video?!
posted by desjardins at 6:48 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

CNN "That was a mess of a press conference"

Yes, Jane, it sure was.
posted by pearlybob at 6:48 AM on August 15, 2014

#Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, a 6-year veteran, is the name of the officer who fatally shot #MikeBrown, says chief Thomas Jackson
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

@AntonioFrench
11:51 - 911 call re: robbery
12:01 - encounter with #MikeBrown
12:04 - 2nd cop arrives following shooting
12:05 - supervisor dispatched
posted by desjardins at 6:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Eyebrows McGee: " regional cooperatives can help, where suburban cops have access to big-city training,"

Indeed - in the big city, they don't shoot you, they'll just choke you to death or "attack" you with a broomhandle (attack is the clean, nice and non-triggery way to put it)... Actually, crap, I forgot... I guess the do shoot you sometimes, too. But in their defense, he was holding something in his hands, unlike this recent case in MO... His wallet... So it's not like he was shot emptyhanded... So maybe you're right, maybe big-city training will do much better for the small town Po Po. Maybe they'll learn not to shoot right away, but use other methods to brutalize the public.

I don't mean to be snarky, and in all honesty, maybe there is something to this idea, but as long as we continually let the boys in blue get off scot-free and without any sort of coming down hard on all these abuses, this will continue to happen. If we pretend it's just one problem with one department (or one type of department (aka: Small Town)) and not all police everywhere (Example: I like my police department here in Madison, but even they have used excessive force and defended a police officer that killed an unarmed man, the guy got fired for sexist/racist/"threatening" emails to fellow cops, even though he had a history of excessive force, it was his actions to his fellow cops and not the public that got him kicked out - and he still paid no legal penalty for anything, nothing to blemish his record, save for "being fired").

The whole system is rotten, the "good cops" and the bad, and the ones in between. We need more Serpicos, but that's hard to do. I don't know the answer, and maybe some form of training is necessary, and better screening of potential recruits. Maybe that will come from big city police, maybe it will have to come from the FBI, maybe it will have to come from the Military. Maybe we need a nationwide educational revamp via some police associations, but in the end, I think it has to come from outside, not from within the very system that continues to brutalize the very people they're supposed to be there to protect.
posted by symbioid at 6:51 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

Wow, there's video?!

I think maybe he's talking about video of a robbery that is not related at all to the murder of Mike Brown?
posted by sporkwort at 6:52 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Guy's name is Darren Wilson.

Now let's here about his rap sheet.
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Didn't the QT already say they didn't call in a robbery?
posted by emjaybee at 6:54 AM on August 15, 2014

Man, good on whoever shouted out that name during the press conference yesterday. That might be what compelled them to officially confirm it.
posted by almostmanda at 6:54 AM on August 15, 2014

So is what they're saying that the cops shot Brown because there had been a robbery and he, as they say, fit the description?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:55 AM on August 15, 2014

Wesley Lowery continues to be a good source on twitter.

I think maybe he's talking about video of a robbery that is not related at all to the murder of Mike Brown?

Yeah. Via Lowery: "Making available dispatch records, video of a "strong arm robbery.""
posted by inigo2 at 6:55 AM on August 15, 2014

The Daily Beast has an article about another case of Ferguson Police use of force that shows how prior to 2010, Ferguson cops did not have use-of-force complaints tied to their personnel files. That's the first two years of Darren Wilson's career.

Schottel got another unpleasant surprise when he sought the use-of-force history of the officers involved. He learned that before a new chief took over in 2010 the department had a surprising protocol for non-fatal use-of-force reports.

“The officer himself could complete it and give it to the supervisor for his approval,” the prior chief, Thomas Moonier, testified in a deposition. “I would read it. It would be placed in my out basket, and my secretary would probably take it and put it with the case file.”

No copy was made for the officer’s personnel file.

“Everything involved in an incident would generally be with the police report,” Moonier said. “I don’t know what they maintain in personnel files.”

“Who was in charge of personnel files, of maintaining them?” Schottel asked.

“I have no idea,” Moonier said. “I believe City Hall, but I don’t know.”

Schottel focused on the date of the incident.

“On September 20th, 2009, was there any way to identify any officers that were subject of one or more citizens’ complaints?” he asked.

“Not to my knowledge,” Moonier said.

“Was there any way to identify any officers who had completed several use-of-force reports?”

“I don’t recall.”

posted by gladly at 6:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

Pages from police report via Ryan Reilly 1, 2 - Brown was robbery suspect, robbery on video (stills)
posted by desjardins at 6:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

If we pretend it's just one problem with one department (or one type of department (aka: Small Town)) and not all police everywhere

You sure as shit won't hear that from me. I merely think that, like dysfunctional families, police departments are all jerked up in their own special ways. Big city departments do differently awful things and are trying to enforce their own unwritten norms.
posted by phearlez at 6:58 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Darren Wilson is the name that they asked Governor Nixon about yesterday.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:59 AM on August 15, 2014

even though he had a history of excessive force, it was his actions to his fellow cops and not the public that got him kicked out

Because there not enough facts to demonstrate that he was wrong in the shooting. That happened a few blocks from my house in Madison, so I was well acquainted with it.

That's the thing though - the officer had to go through the process, all of the evidence was made available, and he was exonerated. It was all very openly done, and I'm confident a good decision was made, given the evidence available. I'm glad they got rid of him though, because, as you say, he wasn't great at his job and was basically a problem waiting to happen. my few interactions with him were not pleasant, I don't think he fit in well with the Madison PD

But Madison is a big town, with a big budget. Go have a run in with the cops in Lodi or, god help you, Shawano - and you'll see shitty Mayberry Rambos in full action.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Related? Brown is in an argument with a clerk over less than $10 worth of cigarillos and that's... what? How does that have anything to do with this shooting? They were out on the lookout for someone who'd tried to boost a pack of cigs and it turned into a shooting?

I don't get this at all.
posted by phearlez at 7:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

So is what they're saying that the cops shot Brown because there had been a robbery and he, as they say, fit the description?

Well he was a black male.
posted by empath at 7:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well he was a black male.

Suspect was driving a.... car...
posted by Trochanter at 7:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Daily Beast has an article about another case of Ferguson Police use of force

Jesus Christ, just shut the whole department down.
posted by empath at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Its a wrap. Its still not right, but its a wrap.
posted by cashman at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2014

Its a wrap. Its still not right, but its a wrap.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:07 AM on August 15, 2014

"...and then we put it in the round file."
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Here are some stills purporting to show Mike having a confrontation at the QT. Is that what he was wearing? I didn't see pics of the body, some Twitters are saying he was wearing pants when shot, not shorts.
posted by emjaybee at 7:10 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Read the police report. Dorian Johnson (the guy who was with Brown at the time of the shooting and has given his account of those events), appears to have told the cops that he and Brown were the two men involved in the robbery. The robbery is relevant because the police will frame it as the reason office Darren Wilson was out looking for a suspect.

OF COURSE, this does not in any way justify the way Wilson approached Brown (if anything it makes it less professional - why holler at robbery suspects to get out of the street and onto the sidewalk as the first point of engagement???), let alone Wilson's choice to shoot Brown and then kill Brown. But this is how the police are now framing the incident. And this is the way folks are going to try and justify Brown's death and Wilson's choices.

I hope people don't forget that people come in shades of gray and that engaging in "bad" behavior doesn't justify murder. But this is going to become ugly very, very fast.
posted by sallybrown at 7:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

That Grantland piece is amazing; thank you for the link, roomthreeseventeen.

I just read up a bit on times that overly militarized police have killed black protestors, which led me to the super depressing English Wikipedia category "Massacres committed by the United States".
posted by brainwane at 7:13 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

orian Johnson (the guy who was with Brown at the time of the shooting and has given his account of those events), appears to have told the cops that he and Brown were the two men involved in the robbery.

Why would he do that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:13 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean the case is over. Nothing will happen to the officer.
posted by cashman at 7:13 AM on August 15, 2014

Brown was looking for two suspects, found them, and completely ignored the second one?
posted by Artw at 7:15 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why they couldn't have released this info sooner.
posted by desjardins at 7:15 AM on August 15, 2014

But do we believe the police report, is the question.

(Even if they did rob the QT, the officer acted wrongly; that kid should be arrested, not dead). But given what has happened so far, and the conflicting reports, especially from the QT manager, I am hesitant to just accept the FPD version of events, yet.)
posted by emjaybee at 7:16 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't understand why they couldn't have released this info sooner.

They had to get everyone to agree on the story, see that the right evidence was in place, get witnesses to say the right things, etc...
posted by Artw at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

Why would he do that?

The police report is sort of hard to understand. Maybe I'm wrong and it is saying Johnson told the police he was with Brown at the time of the shooting, not the robbery, and then the police used that information to "confirm" that Johnson and Brown were the two men involved in the Swisher robbery. Here is what it says (second page):

[details the robbery incident]

It is worth mentioning that this incident is related to another incident . . . . In that incident, Brown was fatally wounded involving an officer of this department. I responded to that scene and observed Brown. After viewing Brown and reviewing this video, I was able to confirm that Brown is the primary suspect in this incident. A second person, also at that scene, identified himself as being with Brown. That person was later identified as Dorian Johnson. After observing Johnson and reviewing the video, I confirmed he is the second suspect in this incident.

posted by sallybrown at 7:19 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why they couldn't have released this info sooner.

I don't, either. Possibly the officer's lawyer told them not to?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 AM on August 15, 2014

Calling this a robbery is a fucking farce. The clerk puts some things on the counter, Brown hands one to his companion, clerk says you'll have to pay for those before you go. Which absent a recording we have no idea about tone - this could be some "hey, we need to ring those up first" or some racist shit or whatever. But it's a confrontation over, what, less than twenty bucks worth of sugar tobacco?

How is letting this get up to violence ever make any damned sense? Even if this was all by the book and they hadn't sat on this for days, making it look like a ginned-up smear, how do you ever justify turning this into killings? Send another cop. You have his picture in a town of 20,000 people. You'll eventually find him and charge him.

Feels like dogwhistle.
posted by phearlez at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

If Dorian Johnson was the other suspect in the robbery, and the witness to the murder, why wasn't he interviewed for days afterward? Why wasn't he arrested, if he was a robbery suspect?
posted by desjardins at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [36 favorites]

This is strikingly analogous to what happens when people accuse others of sexual assault, and then they are pressed for details, and if they give those details people, almost always men, use those details to say 'oh well that wasn't really THAT'. Then the discussion gets shifted from the victim to some sort of detective work to find out 'what actually happened'. (not saying its happening here, just in general)

Watch the narrative in the media shift. Now all we are going to see is, "what happened that night? Who do we trust? What do the pictures show?" All the while ignoring the real story, that a racist police force murdered another black kid with impunity.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

One other page from police report
posted by smackfu at 7:21 AM on August 15, 2014

This is what passes for a good excuse for murdering someone, for assholes, so really they've done their job well and probably nothing will happen.
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Why wasn't he arrested, if he was a robbery suspect?

This is the one that gets me. Why wasn't he taken in for questioning?
posted by emjaybee at 7:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Calling this a robbery is a fucking farce. The clerk puts some things on the counter, Brown hands one to his companion, clerk says you'll have to pay for those before you go.

Well, the stills show a bit more than that. Once you put your hand on someone's neck, especially if that person is much smaller than you, it's not a simple disagreement.
posted by desjardins at 7:23 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

" If we pretend it's just one problem with one department (or one type of department (aka: Small Town)) and not all police everywhere "

Oh, I have plenty to say about the problems of big-city police departments too. That was just orthogonal to my comment of problems with and easy improvements to small-town (or more specifically, suburban) departments. (Like, I continue to be astounded at the NYPD's reaction to protestors. How many lawsuits does it take??? And you're the biggest city in the country, OF COURSE there are going to be frequent protests, why is this such a source of police failure? It's shocking.)

I do think, though, that getting a department to 90% "good" is achievable ... getting to 95% is exponentially more expensive and difficult; 99% exponentially harder again; and so on. Which is a long way of saying I don't think we should let the perfect be the enemy of the good -- if we can identify changes now we should make them now and take the improvement, and then work on the next bit. But waiting until we know how to make it PERFECT ... we'll be waiting a long time, and chances are good it will fail. Iterate incrementally. (And, since police are human systems, and crime is a human system, both will constantly change and require new approaches, so we shouldn't think of any particular reform or system as "finished.")
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:23 AM on August 15, 2014

Why wasn't he arrested, if he was a robbery suspect?

The clerk may have not pressed charges.
posted by smackfu at 7:25 AM on August 15, 2014

The Baffler asks where the NRA and Tea Party were when the MRAPs rolled into Ferguson.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

There is a very harmful cultural belief that our "martyrs" have to be perfect. You still hear gross people gleefully talking about how MLK, Jr. was a philanderer, as if that negates everything else he did. And the opposite holds true, too. Watch--there will be articles appearing to detail anything remotely "good" Darren Wilson has ever done in his life, as if that excuses Michael Brown's killing (and this will be stuff as weak and commonplace as "he is a father" or "his mother loves him").

It's a way to take our reductive instinct that people are either good or bad and use it to justify cultural assumptions or tribal feelings.
posted by sallybrown at 7:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]

It's not up to the clerk whether a guy gets arrested, that's up to the police - or whether charges are pressed - that's up to the DA.
posted by desjardins at 7:27 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Jackson said the robbery happened at another convenience store not the Quick Trip. Jackson also phrased his statement in a way that implied that the officer might have thought Mike Brown was a suspect, without actually saying so.

I haven't looked at stuff from the packet yet. I'll start doing that now.
posted by nangar at 7:27 AM on August 15, 2014

Who cares if a kid stole some cigars? Literally, who cares? The fucking penalty for stealing dime store cigars is not summary execution in the goddamn street like a rabid dog. Fuck this bullshit.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:27 AM on August 15, 2014 [43 favorites]

Here's the sort of item that was the subject of the "strong-arm robbery," as that report classifies it.

Well, the stills show a bit more than that. Once you put your hand on someone's neck, especially if that person is much smaller than you, it's not a simple disagreement.

Of course it is. But this tries to frame this as a property crime in classification when the text makes it clear it started out as a purchase that turned into some sort of confrontation. Which, as smackfu just mentioned, it may be because the clerk declined to push it as an assault case. And you can't make an assault case when your victim won't testify.

I'm not saying this is something that should slide. I'm saying nothing about this looks like something that needs to turn into a stand-off.
posted by phearlez at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2014

Dorian should have said what happened beforehand. Thats his friend's name right? Come on man.
posted by cashman at 7:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well, the stills show a bit more than that. Once you put your hand on someone's neck, especially if that person is much smaller than you, it's not a simple disagreement.

I'd agree that those stills provide decent evidence of a robbery, although I'm incredibly dubious about their actual connection to Michael Brown's killing, given that it took days of protests to get them to release what purports to be very helpful evidence for their side.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:30 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Right, whatever Mike Brown did or did not do in the store is immaterial to the homicide; he was unarmed and I haven't heard of any evidence that would justify the shooting.
posted by desjardins at 7:30 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

The headlines are already starting to reframe this as a robbery gone bad: "Ferguson Police Officer Shot and Killed Michael Brown After Alleged Robbery."

FUCK. We don't even know how much information Wilson had about the robbery or the description of the suspect at the time of the shooting.
posted by sallybrown at 7:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

I realize he's young, but if I have your back, dont let me get caught out there defending you without you having given me the whole story.
posted by cashman at 7:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Dorian should have said what happened beforehand. Thats his friend's name right? Come on man.

Yeah, pretty much. Despite what has been said so far, the cop had a good reason to roll up on those men - it wasn't just "they were walking down the street".

That said, everything after that point was a clusterfuck of epic proportions by the White People In Charge. Though, I fear that point will be lost, now.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

If you suspect someone's going around choking little old store clerks over a pack of cigarettes, telling them to GTFO the street doesn't make any sense.
posted by desjardins at 7:33 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Has the "get the f off the street" thing been corroborated by any other witnesses than Johnson?
posted by shortfuse at 7:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Another page of the police report, listing the stolen items.
posted by smackfu at 7:36 AM on August 15, 2014

Dorian Johnson has some explaining to do.
posted by asok at 7:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Little details like that can be ignored when they don't fit the narrative people want.
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on August 15, 2014

The narrative is "another cop shot another unarmed black kid". what details could change that
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:38 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Another page of the police report, listing the stolen items.

A box of swishers cost 50 bucks ???
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Dorian Johnson has some explaining to do.

Darren Wilson has a whole hell of a lot more explaining to do. As does Chief Jackson.
posted by Foosnark at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

The narrative is "another cop shot another unarmed black kid". what details could change that

Well, now the narrative becomes "Mike Brown was a bad kid." Which, fuck that. It doesn't matter what happened before he was gunned down.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's the old narrative. New narrative is "hero cop hears about violent robbery, bravely confronts human tank, is beaten and just manages to squeeze off a shot before the man-mountain charged him."
posted by Artw at 7:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

@digby56: If you wonder why the Ferguson PD released this robbery info check right wing tweeters right now and you'll understand.

We're gonna see a lot of "well it didn't deserve execution BUT" arguments. Almost none of them will come from a good place.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Strike that, I don't actually think any of them will come from a good place.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 AM on August 15, 2014

Well, now the narrative becomes "Mike Brown was a bad kid." Which, fuck that. It doesn't matter what happened before he was gunned down.

Along with "Anything Dorian Johnson says is unreliable since he's a bad kid too."
posted by smackfu at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2014

Matthew Yglesias: Why isn't Dorian Johnson under arrest?
posted by zombieflanders at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

I would prefer to see the whole report and read more than just a screenshot of it. Brown does not have to have been a perfect angel, although it seems odd for him to just up and rob a store when he had no previous record (or is that also wrong?). And the question of why Johnson wasn't at least questioned has not been answered.

And I'll be mad at Dorian Johnson if and when I have more to go on that a late report from a PD desperate to cover their asses in the wake of a national outcry.

Kids who commit minor crimes don't deserve to be shot in the street like animals, so in many ways this is a moot issue in terms of what the cops should have done, but I'm not 100% convinced by the picture the FPD is painting of Brown, either.

My brother shoplifted when he was 12; should he have been mowed down for it? No, and neither should the many other white kids I know who did the same thing.
posted by emjaybee at 7:45 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Darren Wilson has a whole hell of a lot more explaining to do. As does Chief Jackson.

No argument there. It is also very strange that Johnson wasn't taken in for questioning at the time. I imagine that there was an intention to go back and pay for the cigars, considering it was on CCTV (which I assume they would have known) and no previous criminal convictions for Brown. Unless they weren't expecting to ever go back to that shop, which seems unlikely.
posted by asok at 7:47 AM on August 15, 2014

Cigarettes used to be just out there on the shelves in our local super market. I stole lots of them when I was 13 - 14.

Who knows how my life would have turned out if I'd been shot dead for it.

hmm
posted by Trochanter at 7:48 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Missouri law regarding the redactions
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:48 AM on August 15, 2014

Prediction: Wilson is going to get off with a slap on the wrist for excessive use of force. There will be a lot of insincere hand-wringing by the Ferguson PD and maybe everyone on the force will have to watch a training video, and then it's back to life as usual.
posted by Foosnark at 7:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh, sure, of course Mike Brown was a robbery suspect, and no one said anything about it until the day they identify the cop who shot him. No one happened to mention it even when smearing the kid's name would have been an important part of their media strategy. Yes, I believe that, all right. Especially since the Ferguson PD has displayed so much good judgment and probity, so I know they'd never scramble around to fake something like this.

Not that I care if the kid did steal something, of course, but at this point I'd pretty much have to see Moses bring the police report down on stone tablets before I'd believe it.
posted by Frowner at 7:50 AM on August 15, 2014 [31 favorites]

Pretty clear the purpose of the news conference:
"Police handed out 19 pages. Cover sheet, 16 page incident report on robbery, 2 pages of video stills" [via]
posted by inigo2 at 7:51 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh, sure, of course Mike Brown was a robbery suspect, and no one said anything about it until the day they identify the cop who shot him. No one happened to mention it even when smearing the kid's name would have been an important part of their media strategy. Yes, I believe that, all right. Especially since the Ferguson PD has displayed so much good judgment and probity, so I know they'd never scramble around to fake something like this.

Honestly, I just don't understand anything today.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

From Twitter: "It's not Mike Brown in those Ferguson police video stills. Not unless he changed his shoes after the robbery but before he met the officer."
posted by Phire at 7:54 AM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Isn't the FBI still investigating this entire incident? If this is trumped up, won't that come out?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:55 AM on August 15, 2014

But how was Officer Hero Cop supposed to know that?
posted by Artw at 7:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Turns Out When Police Act Cordial, Rather Than As An Oppressive Military Force, Things Work Out Better
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Wait. So did Dorian Johnson mention the incident at the convenience store before today, or not? Conflicting comments in this thread and I haven't found any links to any statements he made in which he admitted that he and Mike Brown were involved with the altercation at the store.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2014

Isn't the FBI still investigating this entire incident? If this is trumped up, won't that come out?

I'm sure Ferguson PD would never fake anything... Nudge it a little, sure. Selectively reveal. Obviously they're going to drop anything that makes their guy look bad and you can forget serious investigation... But to fake anything would be a criminal act.
posted by Artw at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Pretty clear the purpose of the news conference:
"Police handed out 19 pages. Cover sheet, 16 page incident report on robbery, 2 pages of video stills" [via]
posted by inigo2 at 10:51 AM on August 15 [1 favorite +] [!]

So exactly jack shit about the shooting
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

From Twitter: "It's not Mike Brown in those Ferguson police video stills. Not unless he changed his shoes after the robbery but before he met the officer."

He's wearing flip flops in the stills. Wasn't he wearing those when he was shot ? I'm pretty sure I recall reading/hearing that somewhere.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:59 AM on August 15, 2014

The one that killed a kid I mean
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:00 AM on August 15, 2014

"It's not Mike Brown in those Ferguson police video stills. Not unless he changed his shoes after the robbery but before he met the officer."

Alive / Dead

Looks the same
posted by crayz at 8:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

THE DAY FERGUSON COPS WERE CAUGHT IN A BLOODY LIE

Police in Ferguson, Missouri, once charged a man with destruction of property for bleeding on their uniforms while four of them allegedly beat him.

... a 52-year-old welder named Henry Davis was taken in the predawn hours on that date. He had been arrested for an outstanding warrant that proved to actually be for another man of the same surname, but a different middle name and Social Security number.

posted by Golden Eternity at 8:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

We don't have to go all breaking-news-post-whatever-any-armchair-detective-puts-on-twitter right now if we don't want to. They've got video of the "robbery" and they definitely know what he was wearing when he was murdered, I'm pretty sure the Ferguson PD will not be able to fabricate this away.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also, here's a summation of events that the Ferguson PD is trying to claim happened.
posted by Phire at 8:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm pretty sure I recall reading/hearing that somewhere.

This video from August 10th from a witness maybe?. 0:35 mentions that he was wearing long shorts and flip flops. It also has a bit talking about the alleged robbery.
posted by smackfu at 8:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Hi, flapjax here, your resident protest singer. I wrote a song about Ferguson. Here it is.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

What a difference a day makes…in Ferguson.

What really happened is White People Got Mad. All over the Internet, white people were upset, and any Black person in this country who has ever voiced an opinion about racial tension knows that we have to repeat something ten times to convey what a white person can explain just once. To a huge portion of America, we are always mad about *something* and to them it’s just whining, but whatever sentiment we tried to express is better received from another white face. White people really went in on this. All over my social media, white people were upset and ranting and tweeting and reblogging and reposting and I’ve never seen that magnitude of support from so many different walks of (white) life.

That’s what I need more of. I’ve been upset for most of this week and I honestly didn’t know how I was going to regain control of my emotions. I’m not an emotional person, so I’m not the best and processing intense feelings. I removed myself from a lot of the coverage in Ferguson because I couldn’t handle myself, but then I realized that’s exactly what I needed to pay attention to, or rather, I needed to pay attention to the people posting these stories.

It wasn’t just my usual circle of Black warriors and white allies — it was white kids in the South I haven’t spoken to in 10 years who only post pictures of their cats and babies. It was white former coworkers whose most pressing concern is Skim or Soy in their lattes. It was all these white faces being visibly concerned and that’s what I needed to bring me off that ledge. I got so mad a couple of nights ago that I could not leave my room — because my roommate is white and I was not ready to see white faces. I didn’t take any white patients this week. I was SO UPSET that white people never have to feel this rage — but so many more of them are with us than we sometimes notice.

Ferguson brought out the Closet Racists, but it also brought out the Quiet Supporters and I encourage more of the latter to make their presence known more often. I need this to happen every time another innocent Black child is killed for not being white. I need this to happen when the DOJ releases more statistics about the disparity between Black and white arrests and prison sentences. I need this to happen when Black women go missing.

Don’t stop paying attention just because there’s no more tear gas in Ferguson. The changing of the guard in this one community over this one incident is very singular, even though the mood is felt in communities thousands of miles away. Nothing has fundamentally changed in America and the next Michael Brown is still in the line of fire.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:07 AM on August 15, 2014 [26 favorites]

I was SO UPSET that white people never have to feel this rage

I feel... impotence.
posted by Trochanter at 8:10 AM on August 15, 2014

I may have missed this, both here and on twitter: Are the whole contents of the packet Jackson gave the press available anywhere yet? Are there stills from the store where the suspects are clearly identifiable as Mike and Dorian?
posted by nangar at 8:11 AM on August 15, 2014

Matthew Yglesias: Why isn't Dorian Johnson under arrest?

Because there's no robbery in the sense that we'd rationally consider one, and Johnson's behavior as detailed in that report underscores that. The report has Brown handing the sweets to Johnson, the clerk saying something to Brown and there being words exchanged. "Meanwhile, Johnson sets the box he was handed back on the counter."

Who knows absent seeing it ourselves, but the average person reading this description of the video would not get the image of an attempted violent theft but an argument that had a person shoving someone and stomping out. I think assuming they were necessarily going to go back and pay for them is generous but this reads like hothead rather than criminal.

Which, if you were really optimistic about how smart the Ferguson cops are, you might think is deliberate. There's something in there for every apologist - classification of the incident as strong-arm robbery and a short-tempered dude - it works for all your exculpatory narratives! Except, of course, the picture of someone who is just walking away from incidents rather than continuing to escalate them.
posted by phearlez at 8:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

FYI: Gov. Jay Nixon & Capt. Ron Johnson will give briefing at 11am CT in parking lot of the Buzz Westfall Center
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:13 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Dorian Johnson's story, it turns out, is extremely unreliable," I said as I fired tear gas into the crowd. "Who knows what else he and Brown might have - " here I was interrupted by someone screaming " - gotten up to." I advanced with the line. "It's difficult to know who to trust in this kind of situation."
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

hothead rather than criminal

I suppose he could have had poor impulse control, but I would have thought that would have landed him in bother before this incident with the cigars.
posted by asok at 8:18 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Gee, I was wondering when Ferguson PD was going to swing into Operation Thuggify Mike Brown. Woke up this morning and saw that they were right on time.
posted by scody at 8:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [25 favorites]

Teens be teens, but given the picture of Brown that has been painted, I don't understand why a kid going to college in a couple of days (and with no record) would suddenly rob a store.
posted by shortfuse at 8:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

I feel sorry for the Darren Wilson who is in the STL City PD, president of the Ethical Society of Police and just happens to have the same name as the Darren Wilson in the Ferguson PD. Yikes.
posted by Foosnark at 8:21 AM on August 15, 2014

Not handed out: a use of force report, any police report written by Officer Wilson, any narrative of shooting
— @WesleyLowery
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [20 favorites]

I mean think about it. Trayvon didn't steal anything. He wasn't confronted by a member of law enforcement. And his killer got off without so much as a parking ticket. Is anybody seriously ready to believe that anything is going to happen to to this officer?

And keep in mind we still haven't seen the pictures of the officer's face post-incident. The police have said the officer had a swollen face after the encounter. One he went to the hospital for, and one the chief said was significant enough that he wouldn't have been at work the next day for. The chief didn't know how he got the facial injuries, but it won't matter.

If the officer is convicted of a single thing that carries with it significant jail time, I'll hit the button on my account. That's how sure I am that positively nothing is going to happen now. The officer should be convicted of something, because you shouldn't be allowed to just gun down people on the street, and we all know this wouldn't have happened if it was a white woman near 6'4 and heavy set (and I know someone who fits this description), but he won't. Darren may have to move out of the area, but he's not going to do a single minute.
posted by cashman at 8:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

I have had trouble believing cops ever since I was at my first protest-with-arrests and I saw a cop "disappear" someone's ID and then lie and say she hadn't given it to him, as far as I could tell because he was pissed that she was one of the organizers and giving him lip. (Being arrested without ID meant that you'd have a much longer processing time, likely be held overnight.) I was arrested accidentally (I mean, I hadn't planned it and wasn't part of the usual crowd - people were told to back up and I didn't manage it in time) with ID, and it was about a twelve hour process. Charges were later dropped for everyone, mostly (I assume) because the whole thing was so manifestly the result of confusion. Also, of course, pretty much everyone there was white.

In other news, I went to the Minneapolis moment of silence for Mike Brown thing last night. There were, I think, better than 300 people there.

And then this happened. No, it really did. Cops decided that they would arrest a young woman for basically walking in front of a cop car - unintentionally!!! - at a fucking memorial for Mike Brown. That is cops for you - no judgment, no courtesy, all bullshit. They rolled up to the fucking Urban League where there were a bunch of people already in distress, and if you think there weren't people crossing that street at ill-advised moments just in the ordinary course of daily life, well, there were, is all, and if the cops were busting all of them they wouldn't have time to do anything else.

It was a good event, except for that. A lot of young people and the speeches were actually good and on point, which isn't a first in my activist experience but might as well be. It looks as though folks are planning on starting some kind of anti-police-brutality organizing (in addition to the more S MPLS-based Communities United Against Police Brutality, which has a slightly different approach and focus), and I plan to go back for the next meeting next week.

In one way it was a weird event - there were a lot of white folks where, which isn't weird, but I was struck by how difficult it is to talk about that. One of the speakers talked about how this was a different group than usually showed up, and different from who had showed up when there was the last police murder earlier in the year, and someone else talked about how the cops might listen to us more than to black organizers. It was...I wish it were possible to just say that this is a white supremacy problem, and the white people in the room need to be alert to that and alert to the ways that we can reproduce it within activist movements.

It made me very aware of how segregated my daily life is (even though my activism and social life are tons more diverse than they were when I was younger) , because it really brought home - like, there were a bunch of artsy/intellectual/activist types there who were around my age, and it occurred to me that the reason I'd never met any of them is because I am white and they are black and artistic/intellectual circles are so divided. It's not just that there are black cultural and intellectual spaces - which quite properly are not for me as a white person - but that whoa, never the twain shall meet, not even at a book fair or whatever.

On the whole, a much more grown up event than many of the white-radical things I usually attend. (Which is not to say that those are not worthwhile, but it did bring home how privilege allows people to act more frivolously.)
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on August 15, 2014 [32 favorites]

What would be helpful for the situation is the store owner to come forward with an account as he saw it. Describe what happened and how he felt. Recount the conversation and give information. Dorian should have done this too, but how credible he is at this point, since he's been on national television and not said anything, is questionable. I hate situations like this where people with relevant information aren't sharing it, especially authorities.
posted by cashman at 8:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I could have sworn there was some talk on Monday or Tuesday (not here) about Brown being accused of stealing candy (I could have seen "sweets" and not thought "Swisher"), does anyone else remember this?
posted by desjardins at 8:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean think about it. Trayvon didn't steal anything. He wasn't confronted by a member of law enforcement. And his killer got off without so much as a parking ticket. Is anybody seriously ready to believe that anything is going to happen to to this officer?

Zimmerman trial medical examiner: Prosecution wanted to lose
posted by Artw at 8:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

In continued proof that The Toast is the best original content site on the internet right now: Regulations for your Rage

Please keep your rage polite and orderly.

Please make sure your rage stands in the queue and waits for its turn.

Please advise your rage to say “Excuse me” when interrupting others’ conversations, regardless of their topics. Do this even if on fire.

Please ensure your rage follows the dress code. Rage must be tidily dressed, & must say “sir” and “ma’am,” even if called “boy” or “girl.”

We would prefer that your rage be punctual and arrive neither too early nor too late.

posted by Phire at 8:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Not handed out: a use of force report, any police report written by Officer Wilson, any narrative of shooting

Or a count of how many bullets were fired, and how many struck Mike Brown. This selective release of evidence is incredibly disingenuous. The state and/or feds really need to step in and release all information about this situation as soon as possible, not just one side's best-crafted story.
posted by crayz at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

Wesley Lowery has filed a WaPo summary report.
posted by shortfuse at 8:33 AM on August 15, 2014

Who gives a shit about some candy cigars? Even if there was a robbery, the cops, instead of arresting their suspects - one of whom, if there was a robbery, remains unaccountably free - killed a kid in broad daylight and then used military force to crack the skulls of the people who objected to it. They're trying to get away with murder.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Wouldn't the police interview Dorian Johnson just as a bystander, or witness, to whatever they say happened in the convenience store?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:35 AM on August 15, 2014

I could have sworn there was some talk on Monday or Tuesday (not here) about Brown being accused of stealing candy (I could have seen "sweets" and not thought "Swisher"), does anyone else remember this?

Maybe someone misheard "rillos" (cigarillos) as "Rolos" (candy)?
posted by smackfu at 8:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think there's a little bit of failure of empathy in second guessing Dorian Johnson. The poor kid just saw his friend get shot to death right in front of him. I was in a weird state for a day after seeing someone I really didn't like that much get dragged into a police station by a couple of cops during a protest (I kept seeing the big steel doors shut) and no one got hurt there - I don't know how I'd be doing if I'd seen a friend killed. If it was me, I'd have access to activist lawyers and a therapist, and no one would be calling me a thug on TV.

I mean, the poor kid! That's shell shock territory right there, and he's just a baby.

I think a lot of times we [white and/or middle class people] are socialized to believe that these really terrible things can happen to poor people or people of color and it won't just fuck them up the way it would if it happened to us.
posted by Frowner at 8:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [30 favorites]

"Capt. Ronald Johnson criticizes Ferguson police chief press conference, says alleged robbery separate from shooting. "

Man, I hope Johnson stays safe. I wouldn't put anything past the Ferguson police at this point.
posted by longdaysjourney at 8:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [28 favorites]

It must be simultaneously nice and frustrating as shit to be the only responsible adult in an entire statewide police network.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [28 favorites]

Vox: How we'd cover Ferguson if it happened in another country
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

It does sound like post hoc justification on the part of the police, Darren Wilson's behaviour does not seem to relate to the alleged robbery at all.
posted by asok at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2014

Also what happened to the hat?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Frowner, I experienced some similar feelings at the vigil in Union Square. Several speakers addressed the racial mix of the crowd, and I remember in particular that one said, basically, "thanks for showing up, white folks, but I am really not here to make you feel good or comfortable," and another who said something more along the lines of "solidarity with everyone, for everyone." As I walked up to the vigil I noticed a young white woman who was wearing a tank top on which she had written "no justice no peace," which struck me as not entirely in good taste. It was definitely a space where I wanted to be an ally without being an intruder, which is a feeling I have a lot, and one that probably prevents me from being a good/visible ally sometimes. Not sure I have a point to the story. I hope there are more vigils/meetings where I can swell the ranks of the crowd. That does at least feel like helping.
posted by prefpara at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man, Bob McCulloch is going to be pissed. Ferguson PD handed him what he needs to bury this mess and now this Highway Patrol guy has messed it all up again.
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wow, this Capt. Johnson fellow is looking like excellent Governor material.
posted by valkane at 8:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

I noticed a young white woman who was wearing a tank top on which she had written "no justice no peace," which struck me as not entirely in good taste

Why not?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:45 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Very obligatory Constable Savage clip from the BBC's Not The Nine O'Clock News.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Man, Bob McCulloch is going to be pissed. Ferguson PD handed him what he needs to bury this mess and now this Highway Patrol guy has messed it all up again.

Ha, that was exactly my thought. I don't envy Captain Johnson's role in any of this, but I'm damn glad he's there.
posted by rtha at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's kinda funny that some are criticizing Dorian Johnson for not being more forthcoming in his alleged role in what may have been a crime, while elsewhere on the blue there's a good discussion going on about never talking to the police.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

I think there's a little bit of failure of empathy in second guessing Dorian Johnson.
I think a lot of times we are socialized to believe that these really terrible things can happen to poor people or people of color and it won't just fuck them up the way it would if it happened to us.

Oh I have lots of empathy for him. But I've also seen some of Mike's boys talking about the situation, and seen Dorian giving interviews on national news, and he knows he should have brought this up by now. Like I said, I've got your back, but you gotta give me relevant pieces of information like this. We all agree the shooting was still wrong. Well at least here we do. You know a bunch of folks will just tune right out now.
posted by cashman at 8:48 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Maybe it didn't seem relevant on account of not being a robbery?
posted by Artw at 8:50 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

It was definitely a space where I wanted to be an ally without being an intruder, which is a feeling I have a lot, and one that probably prevents me from being a good/visible ally sometimes. Not sure I have a point to the story. I hope there are more vigils/meetings where I can swell the ranks of the crowd. That does at least feel like helping.

The thing is, when I was at the event, I felt super awkward, and I know for a fact that I said something about seeing this as something where white people need to stop doing this kind of thing that made a fellow attendee of color uncomfortable. I think it came across as both very naive (since everyone knows that) and very white-centering. I felt stupid, actually.

I reminded myself in that moment that I am going to feel stupid sometimes if I want to do this work, I'm going to look like a naive fool sometimes, I'm going to accidentally say stuff that is the wrong thing to say. If I actually want to help on this, I need to be able to push through the powerful feelings of anxiety and awkwardness that I experience, and accept that in this situation I don't know what I'm doing and need to step back and listen instead of sharing my naive/frustrating/derailing first thoughts. I just need to accept that the point of doing this work is to do the work, not to stabilize my self-esteem - I need to deal with my feelings in therapy/journalling/etc so that I can be present in the moment and do the best I can.
posted by Frowner at 8:50 AM on August 15, 2014 [20 favorites]

Because the consequences of "no justice no peace" don't tend to fall on young white women. Maybe I have an incorrect understanding of it as a slogan, but it seems closer to a battle cry than to a simple chant of protest, and it feels inappropriate to me for a white person to take up that battle cry at a vigil that was organized as a peaceful gathering prompted by racist violence perpetrated by white supremacist state action.
posted by prefpara at 8:50 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Maybe Dorian had no idea anyone called the cops after the incident in the convenience store, so he didn't think it was relevant to a cop shooting his friend in broad daylight.
posted by misskaz at 8:52 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

It reeks of co-opting.
posted by desjardins at 8:53 AM on August 15, 2014

Like, I mean that I don't think it's possible to be a Well-Meaning White Person and not be kind of a millstone sometimes. I think we need to do our best to be the most useful and the least nuisance that is possible. But I also realized that the black activists at this event, well, this isn't their first time at the rodeo - they are perfectly well aware that naive white people are going to be naive white people, and I think as long as I am doing my best to step back/step up as needed, it's okay and I can't get in the headspace of "ZOMG I AM FUCKING UP JUST BY BEING HERE LET ME CENTER MYSELF AND MY FEELINGS NOW".

It's just, you have to try to make sure that you're useful 90% of the time and only a millstone 10%.
posted by Frowner at 8:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

That doesn't pass the smell test at all; shouting at someone through a car window is not how you handle robbery suspects. If Darren Wilson was trying to question or arrest a suspect, even in a good department, he'd have been out on the sidewalk, the suspects would likely be sitting or up against the car, and he'd have backup.

Yeah, it's all weird. One on two is never numbers cops like. It's a fucking miracle when I see a traffic stop that only has two cruisers rather than three or even more. If a call for a "strong-arm robbery" was really what was on this guy's radar there's not a chance in hell he didn't call it in. It certainly makes little sense for him to be right on top of the guy when he tries to get out of the cruiser and confront him; I don't do that for a living and I even know you NEVER want to be in the middle of getting in or out of the vehicle when you have a potentially violent encounter.

Which I am sure means jack squat. The question of police operating procedures, particularly when they can draw their weapon, is an important one. But good luck getting anyone much to care about that outside parsing it out in the courtroom.
posted by phearlez at 8:54 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

it feels inappropriate to me for a white person to take up that battle cry at a vigil that was organized as a peaceful gathering prompted by racist violence perpetrated by white supremacist state action

Any of you white people who protest against racist violence perpetrated by white supremacist state action will get a hearty round of applause from at least this member. 'No Justice No Peace' means that when there is no justice, we cannot have peace. Count me as pro-justice.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [27 favorites]

Maybe Dorian had no idea anyone called the cops after the incident in the convenience store, so he didn't think it was relevant to a cop shooting his friend in broad daylight.

MSNBC talked to Johnson's lawyer after the info was released today.

In an interview with msnbc shortly after the report was released, Johnson’s lawyer confirmed that Brown had taken cigars from the store.

“We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that he did take cigarillos, he told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.”

posted by smackfu at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Radio station that will be covering the next news conference, to start any minute.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:58 AM on August 15, 2014

Yeah, I think the white woman shouldn't wear that when protesting is kinda a derail. We all gotta start somewhere and we all need allies. The fact that she was there as opposed to being behind the keyboard counts 1000x more towards +++ then the nuance of the slogan on her shirt.
posted by edgeways at 8:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

'No Justice No Peace' means that when there is no justice, we cannot have peace. Count me as pro-justice.

This.

Isn't the lack of peace and justice this week exactly what everyone, black or white or otherwise, has been so angry and frustrated about all week?

"No Justice No Peace" isn't a threat of violence. It's pointing out the one-sided war that has been going on for most of the week until Ron Johnson was put in charge, as well as the broader and longer-range issues.
posted by Foosnark at 8:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

I could have sworn there was some talk on Monday or Tuesday (not here) about Brown being accused of stealing candy (I could have seen "sweets" and not thought "Swisher"), does anyone else remember this?'

The very first report online I saw was "kid suspected of stealing candy from convenience store shot." Then that was dropped, and I thought, ok, the robbery thing wasn't true.

And now it's back.

Re, being a white ally, I think our most useful job is talking to other white people. Some women on Twitter was all "But everybody fears for their kids!" at a black woman I follow, who was not having it. So I engaged her with "we are both white moms, we do NOT know what black moms fear, ok? Just be respectful." I felt useful doing that. Don't know if I convinced her, but she stopped tweeting stupid shit at least for the immediate.

We are going to be blundering and clumsy, no doubt, but if we don't demand cookies for being allies and focus on reducing white cluelessness, I think we can be useful.

A lot of times, I just retweet important links, or express my own feelings of outrage, and otherwise just listen. Listening is an action. Believing people is an action.
posted by emjaybee at 9:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

So... Dorian Johnson did tell people about the cigarillos - he just didn't tell the media?

That sort of makes sense. The media weren't asking about it, and it probably wasn't front of mind.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:02 AM on August 15, 2014

And the idea that white people shouldn't show up to support the black community is just ... uggh. Americans should show up to support other Americans. Humans should show up to support other humans. Singling out a white woman for wearing a homemade protest shirt because it was a black guy that got murdered? Please, no.
posted by crayz at 9:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

via Gene Demby's twitter: "The grinding poverty in Mike's world only allowed Normandy High School to acquire two graduation gowns to be shared by the entire class.The students passed a gown from one to the other. Each put the gown on, in turn, and sat before the camera to have their graduation photographs taken. Until it was Mike's turn."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:06 AM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Daily Kos article re: Michael Brown
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on August 15, 2014

I'm sorry, I did not mean to suggest that white people should not show up to support the black community. I was sharing some rough and unprocessed reactions that I had personally. I'm sorry if I did that in a way that made anyone uncomfortable or was derail-y. I agree my reaction to a tshirt is not the topic of the thread.
posted by prefpara at 9:08 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

This talk of process inspired me to go back looking for these documents and some of you might find them interesting.

Some years ago an anarchist collective in the Richmond, VA area sent a FOIA to the PD asking for operational orders. I probably never would have heard about this if not for the Streisand effect when they tried to grab them back, so thanks for that RPD!

Being no dummies, these folks immediately put the docs out in the world before a court order could be sent. One of the possibly most interesting ones, in light of this circumstance, is the PDF detailing Richmond PD's crowd management procedures.

It is less than heartwarming.

The following items are maintained by the CMT

Riot shields
Less Lethal Chemical Agents
Cut tools
Helmet
Body protectors - chest, arm, leg
Cameras/video
Batons
Gas masks

Sort of a textbook of the "how not to" from earlier articles, eh?
posted by phearlez at 9:08 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Look, they only had so much time to put together this defense, don't ask for miracles!
posted by Artw at 9:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Singling out a white woman for wearing a homemade protest shirt because it was a black guy that got murdered? Please, no.

Well, no, it's singling out a white woman for wearing a homemade protest shirt that can be read, however charitably or uncharitably, as an incitement to violence, because some white protestors and commentators have been a little too keen on starting a rumble with the police.

On preview, it's a derail, let's get back to talking about the murder, the crackdown, and the character assassination.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:12 AM on August 15, 2014

PDF of released documents
posted by maggieb at 9:17 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Anyone catch the "#Palestine stands with #Ferguson." image (via, upthread)
posted by jeffburdges at 9:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I hate that they're calling it strong arm robbery, as opposed to what most of us would call it if a friend of ours took one or two or even 10 1-dollar items from a store - shoplifting. The term is being used in all reports now so it will stick so I'm sure it is technically correct in some sense, but in any situation where I've heard those circumstances, it gets called 'shoplifting'.
posted by cashman at 9:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

"In our anger, we have to make sure we don't burn down our own house...." - Ron Johnson.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:20 AM on August 15, 2014

Becoming a White Ally to Black People in the Aftermath of Michael Brown.

One especially relevant bit:

2. Reject the “He Was a Good Kid” narrative and lift up the “Black Lives Matter” narrative. Michael Brown was a good kid, by accounts of those who knew him during his short life. But that’s not why his death is tragic. His death isn’t tragic because he was a sweet kid on his way to college next week. His death is tragic because he was a human being and his life mattered. The Good Kid narrative might provoke some sympathy but what it really does is support the lie that as a rule black people, black men in particular, have a norm of violence or criminal behavior. The Good Kid narrative says that this kid didn’t deserve to die because his goodness was the exception to the rule. This is wrong. This kid didn’t deserve to die because he was a human being and black lives matter.
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [33 favorites]

@Collin_MOTimes: It's worth noting that on Tuesday Chief Jackson told me Brown was not being stopped in relation to any criminal activity.

Hopefully he's got this on tape, otherwise down the memory hole it goes.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]

via Missouri Times reporter: "It's worth noting that on Tuesday Chief Jackson told me Brown was not being stopped in relation to any criminal activity."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

He manhandled the clerk, if you look at the stills. It wasn't a mere shoplifting.

Still, I am confused at a pack of Swisher sweets costing 50 dollars. Did he take a crate ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:22 AM on August 15, 2014

Jinx, again.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

There certainly are a lot of cokes being owed in this thread.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:25 AM on August 15, 2014

He manhandled the clerk, if you look at the stills. It wasn't a mere shoplifting.

There is video available, and he pushes the clerk back. I wouldn't call one hand shoving, even by the neck, a manhandling. I'm just saying say strong-arm robbery to people, and the picture is obviously of a dire scene with weapons and planning and all that. Not some dude with flip flops on shoplifting a bunch of packs of one dollar cigars and walking out, pushing the clerk out of the way when the clerk attempts to stop him from leaving.
posted by cashman at 9:26 AM on August 15, 2014

PDF of released documents

On page 14 it says "4 to 6 shots"
posted by crayz at 9:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Did he take a crate?

A quick online search has a box of 60 grape swisher sweets going for 34 bucks. I'm guessing that 50 bucks is what the store owner had listed as the retail price.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:27 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well, now the narrative becomes "Mike Brown was a bad kid." Which, fuck that. It doesn't matter what happened before he was gunned down.

It matters because if he was willing to put his hand on some storeowner's throat - (and with the disparity of height in those stills, how tall /is/ Brown anyway?) because he tried to steal some cigars and the storeowner wouldn't let him, it becomes suddenly more reasonable that he might have actually tried to use force on the cop, which previously seemed unthinkable.
posted by corb at 9:30 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Jay Nixon is on TV again. He is just awful. How in god's name was anyone seriously talking about him running for President?
posted by crayz at 9:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

And here comes the apologia.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Does the Second Amendment Only Apply to White People?
posted by rtha at 9:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

It matters less because, like you yourself pointed out earlier, the best possible narrative for the police in this situation is still horrific.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Corb, thank you for providing an example of what we are talking about.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on August 15, 2014 [23 favorites]

On reading the report PDF:

"Sandles"—clearly they didn't hire the officer for his spelling ability.

Also, the reporters I'm seeing who didn't read the report and are tweeting that the shoplifting took place at QuikTrip aren't helping. Page 5 of the report clearly states that the person interviewed by the officer about the incident gestured toward the QuikTrip, so that's not where it took place.
posted by limeonaire at 9:33 AM on August 15, 2014

it becomes suddenly more reasonable that he might have actually tried to use force on the cop, which previously seemed unthinkable.

And that's why they had to shoot him in the back as he was running away.
posted by rtha at 9:34 AM on August 15, 2014 [17 favorites]

It matters because if he was willing to put his hand on some storeowner's throat

Yeah, no, still doesn't justify being gunned down.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:34 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

And that's why they had to shoot him in the back as he was running away.

You never know when a kid will reach for your gun while he's sprinting away from you.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [23 favorites]

Still doesn't make "he reached for my gun" anything more than bullshit that cops spout when they think they might have fucked up.
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Nixon: "I think there are going to be some moments of angst between now and the finish.... of this investigation."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:36 AM on August 15, 2014

It matters because if he was willing to put his hand on some storeowner's throat - (and with the disparity of height in those stills, how tall /is/ Brown anyway?)

The language of the report - "towers over", e.g. - reminded me rather of David Mills' writing on the trope of the "giant negro" in late 19th and early 20th century American news reporting.

Plus ca change...
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:37 AM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

You never know when a kid will reach for your gun while he's sprinting away from you.

Not coincidentally, this has been the actual effect of Stand Your Ground, contrary to proponents' claims.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Nixon: "I think there are going to be some moments of angst between now and the finish.... of this investigation."

Ah, Nixon. Are we letting him off the hook because of Ron Johnson? That was his idea right? Hugely late, but creditable.
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on August 15, 2014

Woman telling the governor now how she was mocked and disrespected by police, asking how she can trust police when they only respect certain races.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:40 AM on August 15, 2014

it becomes suddenly more reasonable that he might have actually tried to use force on the cop, which previously seemed unthinkable.

To me, it reinforces that the stop/apprehension/arrest/shooting was handled terribly by the cops. If you have a robbery suspect, you call for backup, sit him in a car/on the curb and don't get in a situation where "fighting for my gun" was even a possibility. No matter what Brown was accused of doing in the preceding minutes, ending a suspect/cop interaction with an unarmed suspect dead is where the error and blame lie squarely.
posted by mathowie at 9:40 AM on August 15, 2014 [30 favorites]

Did he just call him Capt. "Jackson"?
posted by pearlybob at 9:41 AM on August 15, 2014

I believe he is talking about Jackson and Johnson.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:43 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I really hate to say this, but for many people the robbery will make a difference, no matter how much you explain that it's neither relevant (because likely the cop's interaction had zero connection with the robbery), nor appropriate even if it were to have happened in the course of an actual arrest attempt for robbery.

I know this, because I've talked to the three guys here during morning coffee time. Liberals all of 'em. They know and understand it on an intellectual level - which is more than you can say about most of the morons frothing at the mouth in the article comments sections. But nonetheless, on an emotional level, purely emotional - and they even understand it - the fire has gone out of the fight for them. Which, I suspect, is the completely by design action of the PD in releasing the name of the cop together with the irrelevant robbery... despite the fact that the robbery had ZERO to do with what the cop did. But it worked - at least for a ton of people.

So, it is with a heavy heart today that I see, yet again, the same dynamic prevail. My co-workers getting that distant look in their eyes today when I brought up Ferguson - unlike the eager agreements yesterday. "Yeeeah, well, right... right... it's fucked up, man, but yeah, you know, the guy was a thug, let's face it, not fair, wrong, but...". Fucking depressing.

The fact is that a life of a citizen was taken, completely unjustifiably. But for the public at large, the value of that life depends on who the person is. That's why it was more powerful to say "no criminal record, going to college, all-around good kid" - who can argue against that (well racists, that's who!)? Now you say "oh he physically assaulted a small woman clerk and robbed a store", and watch the value of that life shrink for many people out there.

And that's the problem. If we wish every victim, and everyone working for social change, to be a saint, before we put our energies into change, then we may as well give up. Rodney King was not a saint, but did not deserve a savage beating at the hands of the "serve and protect" police, and Mike Brown did not deserve to be murdered for... nothing. It's the same argument as with the death penalty. Being opposed to the death penalty does not mean anyone condones what the criminal does, and pointing to the criminal's actions is not a counter-argument to the anti-death penalty position, but nonetheless it's there in every single argument I've ever heard on the topic.
posted by VikingSword at 9:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [27 favorites]

I think it is SO SO important to point out that WHITE PEOPLE STEAL AND DO NOT GET SHOT. I know tons and tons of white kids who have stolen stuff, and sometimes they've been a bit stroppy with it. I know people who went through a "I shoplift to stick it to the man" phase and actively stole stuff just to steal stuff. I used to know a guy who broke a Starbucks window in a protest in 1999 - I mean, just stepped right up and broke it in front of God and everyone, on film. None of those people got shot or even roughed up. A couple of them got shoplifting charges. The guy who broke the window - we lost touch years ago, but the cops just....kind of....decided that they had too much else on their plates and nothing ever happened.

Every time someone is like "oh, he was a robber", you should remind them about, like, when your cousin stole something or whatever.
posted by Frowner at 9:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [27 favorites]

Ok. He was so flummoxed....I wasn't sure if he misspoke.
posted by pearlybob at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2014

Woman saying that while they are saying it's a new day, how is she supposed to respond to the media only talking about Michael Brown's background, or the looting?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Did he just call him Capt. "Jackson"?

Yes, he did.
posted by maggieb at 9:46 AM on August 15, 2014

I wouldn't call one hand shoving, even by the neck, a manhandling.

What the hell would you call it? If someone grabs me by the neck and throws me, you bet I'm going to press charges for assault.

I think actually it's less likely that the cop was cruising for a robbery suspect, and more likely that when the cop accosted Brown, Brown thought it was about the robbery and assault, and struggled to get free to avoid what he thought was an imminent arrest. And holy shit, that was a woman in the stills? Yeah, men who grab women by the neck to intimidate them do not get a free pass in my world, and it also makes sense why she wouldn't have wanted to press charges against the other guy when there's been even some rioting.
posted by corb at 9:46 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm just saying say strong-arm robbery to people, and the picture is obviously of a dire scene with weapons and planning and all that.

"Strong-arm robbery" is just the NCIC code for a robbery (larceny + force) that doesn't include a weapon or gun.
posted by smackfu at 9:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

And holy shit, that was a woman in the stills? Yeah, men who grab women by the neck to intimidate them do not get a free pass in my world, and it also makes sense why she wouldn't have wanted to press charges against the other guy when there's been even some rioting.

Since we only have pictures and no video at this point, making any kind of assumptions is ridiculous.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:49 AM on August 15, 2014

how tall /is/ Brown anyway?

8? 9? 10 feet? Who really knows? He could have been 20 feet tall and threatened to step on the cop with his size 34 timberlands. Its, technically, possible so who are we to judge?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:50 AM on August 15, 2014 [16 favorites]

Have they released the security footage or just stills?
posted by cmfletcher at 9:50 AM on August 15, 2014

Since we only have pictures and no video at this point, making any kind of assumptions is ridiculous.

Well, we have a picture of his hand on her neck. At that point, it's not really an assumption, unless you think she somehow consented to that.
posted by corb at 9:51 AM on August 15, 2014

GIANT NEGRO SLAIN AFTER ATTACKING POLICE
posted by klangklangston at 9:51 AM on August 15, 2014 [17 favorites]

Well, we have a picture of his hand on her neck. At that point, it's not really an assumption, unless you think she somehow consented to that.

Again, unless you were there, you can't really comment. Sorry.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:52 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

What the hell would you call it? If someone grabs me by the neck and throws me, you bet I'm going to press charges for assault.

I think actually it's less likely that the cop was cruising for a robbery suspect, and more likely that when the cop accosted Brown, Brown thought it was about the robbery and assault, and struggled to get free to avoid what he thought was an imminent arrest. And holy shit, that was a woman in the stills? Yeah, men who grab women by the neck to intimidate them do not get a free pass in my world, and it also makes sense why she wouldn't have wanted to press charges against the other guy when there's been even some rioting.

I would call it what it was after watching the video. He shoved the clerk. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with being around guys a lot, but I'm not. I play basketball with dudes this big all the time. I was playing last week when two guys jostling inside pushed each other in the same way as you can see in the video. Have you seen the video Corb? I'm also pretty sure from watching the video, that the clerk who blocked the door was a guy.

And if you watch the video, the clerk, after being shoved, still walks right out behind Michael and Dorian. It was a shitty thing to do, to push the guy and shoplift stuff from his store, but don't try to elevate it into something it isn't. You did this shit in the Trayvon Martin thread, don't start it again.
posted by cashman at 9:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [28 favorites]

I just don't give a fucking fuck if he stole. Or if he shoved a woman. He was shot in the back while fleeing. It's a fucking crime for a cop to do that.

As teenagers, my cute little white girl friends probably stole hundreds or thousands in Claire's jewelry and fancy cheeses. Should they have been shot in the back and killed?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:54 AM on August 15, 2014 [39 favorites]

Yeah, men who grab women by the neck to intimidate them do not get a free pass in my world

Who is giving him a free pass? He should have been arrested, not shot in the back while running away.
posted by desjardins at 9:55 AM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

It's not a woman. The clerk is a man. There was another woman, a customer, in the store as well. How quick some people are to jump on any lame excuse to take the side of the murderous thugs. (The murderous thugs being the police, to be clear.)
posted by misskaz at 9:55 AM on August 15, 2014 [22 favorites]

Since we only have pictures and no video at this point, making any kind of assumptions is ridiculous.

Sure there's video. It has been running on tv off and on for an hour or so. Somebody made part of it into a vine but I didn't want to link it because it doesn't show the whole video. Then there's a copy of MSNBC's video on some objectionable site and I didn't want to link to that site.
posted by cashman at 9:55 AM on August 15, 2014

Yeah, men who grab women by the neck to intimidate them do not get a free pass in my world

Well, then, yay for you, that man was shot multiple times in the back and his body got to lie in the street for hours and hours. That should even things up, huh.

Fucking GROSS.
posted by palomar at 9:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [29 favorites]

Guys, can we please not give in to corb's contrarian-hero schtick and refrain from making this thread about her?
posted by almostmanda at 9:57 AM on August 15, 2014 [37 favorites]

yeah, corb can you step away and everyone else help keep this from only being about her comments?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

No, almostmanda, I think this is the time we will learn our lesson.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2014

I'm also pretty sure from watching the video, that the clerk who blocked the door was a guy.

The report clearly says man and the officer's description of the video refers to pushing/grabbing a shirt, not neck. And it's all WHO FUCKING GIVES A FUCK because the dude was shot in the back running away.

Seriously, assume every bit of ugly guilt here and why was a fleeing suspect shot? Use of force guidelines in every jurisdiction in the world say you don't shoot a fleeing individual unless they're an imminent threat. Believe this person grabbed and shoved someone by the neck and you still don't have a picture of someone who is going to commit deadly assault now. No reason to believe he had a weapon.

It's all just smoke and mirrors to smear Brown and obfuscate why the cop might have escalated things. And it still doesn't work up to justification.
posted by phearlez at 10:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

What I think will make a big difference for me is when the forensics and autopsy come out. There's a big discrepancy between the stories of the cop and other witnesses, with the cop claiming self defense at short range, and the witnesses claiming that Brown was shot in the back from a distance of about 15-20 feet. That's something that should be a factual claim that's broadly answerable — location of gunshot wounds and stippling/lack thereof should tell us a fair amount.

I'm at such a remove that I don't feel comfortable adjudicating the competing claims without more evidence — and certainly not comfortable speculating about how someone who may or may not have been Brown assaulting a clerk was reason enough to think that Brown may have attacked the officer. That seems really irresponsible.

It's also worth noting that unless the officer feels that if he lets a suspect flee, that suspect will likely cause great bodily harm to an innocent, deadly force is not justified. Again, the distance matters — if Brown was shot grabbing for a cop's gun, then that's justifiable. If he was shot while fleeing as a minor assault and shoplifting suspect, that's still an illegal use of force. I think that's really important to keep in mind, especially if you value restraining the police-military state. Even if Brown was nominally a "bad guy," the use of force has to be justified or it's murder. There are plenty of bad people out there, but if I can't just murder all the people who I think are bad, cops shouldn't be able to either.

And unfortunately, I worry that this will obscure the broader, systemic issues that led the St. Louis County PD to react like Mubarak to Tahir Square. Even if the protestors were wrong and Brown was a dangerous criminal, they still have a right to protest and assemble, and utilizing military force on them and on media is criminal. The aphorism that two wrongs don't make a right is apt.
posted by klangklangston at 10:01 AM on August 15, 2014 [21 favorites]

Video is running on msnbc right now.
posted by cashman at 10:02 AM on August 15, 2014

I just don't give a fucking fuck if he stole. Or if he shoved a woman. He was shot in the back while fleeing. It's a fucking crime for a cop to do that.

Exactly. The "is this really a robbery angle" is basically a derail from real issue. You don't get to shoot robbery suspects in the back as they run away, and you don't get to declare martial law when people protest that. People who push the robbery angle are doing so to cover up the real issue, either deliberately or because of their own implicit racial bias.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:03 AM on August 15, 2014 [26 favorites]

What I think will make a big difference for me is when the forensics and autopsy come out.

Again, Ferguson PD being in control of the crime scene and initial stages of the investigation give me severe doubt here.
posted by Artw at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

@RyanJReilly: Back at McDonald’s once again, where the very friendly manager just came over to shake my hand and say hi.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014

Video from MSNBC (starts at the 2:20 point)

Really shows how bad stills are at representing a situation.
posted by smackfu at 10:04 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Thank god someone here is defending the cop. Were it not for that, he'd only have his legal counsel, his police department, the broad latitude given to cops when making split-second decisions, and the fact that dead men don't talk on his side.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [31 favorites]

Wow, yeah, those stills do misrepresent the video.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:07 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Really shows how bad stills are at representing a situation.

You might say those are hand picked stills intended to provoke a particular reaction.
posted by Artw at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2014 [50 favorites]

The Ferguson police said (albeit days ago now) that they would not release the autopsy report on Michael Brown:

There are varying accounts of how many times Wilson shot Brown. Belmar said "more than just a couple [times], but I don't think it was many more than that." Eyewitnesses indicate four shots were fired, and Brown's mother, Lesley McSpadden, said she was told police shot Brown eight times. The police announced they will not release the results of the autopsy on Brown's, which will make it more difficult for the public to know how many shots were fired. But law enforcement did release the body to Brown's family, and the family plans to allow another investigation of the body.

posted by gladly at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can you give a quick summary of how the stills misrepresent the video? Thanks.
posted by shortfuse at 10:10 AM on August 15, 2014

I'm interested in the forensics too. If the cop is seated in his vehicle, and Brown leans in to grab his gun, wouldn't the gun have to be already out of the holster for the cop to shoot him? I'm having trouble imagining it - if Brown was able to get the gun out, then he would be holding the gun, and how would the cop shoot it if Brown was holding it? But if Brown was unsuccessful at grabbing the gun, why shoot him? Just drive a safe distance and call for backup.
posted by desjardins at 10:10 AM on August 15, 2014

He actually fell backwards onto some bullets, making it impossible to tell which came from the officers gun.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on August 15, 2014 [17 favorites]

I am fairly certain the DOJ will have access to the autopsy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can you give a quick summary of how the stills misrepresent the video? Thanks

The stills make it look like Michael picked this clerk up by his collar and held him there. In the video, the clerk is trying to block the door so the boys can't leave. Michael sort of shoves him away. When the clerk pursues, Michael turns around back into the store and steps towards him, and then back out.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:12 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Initial reports were that Brown fired the cop's gun into the car, which should be trivial to prove with forensics.
posted by desjardins at 10:12 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

The written reports too sounded like he shoved the clerk into a rack of merchandise super forcefully, maybe causing it to crash down or something. But what actually happened is he pushed the clerk who then barely brushed a rack and it wiggled back and forth a bit.
posted by misskaz at 10:13 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can you give a quick summary of how the stills misrepresent the video? Thanks.

If all you do is look at a still, you might think that Mike Brown grabbed someone by the neck and tried to choke them. If you watch the video, you can see that the clerk got very close to Brown, and Brown put his hand on the clerk's neck/high chest area (around the clavicle) and pushed him away.

Nope, he didn't try to choke a woman out. Nope, he didn't commit assault. Nope, he didn't deserve to be murdered.
posted by palomar at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [30 favorites]

I'm interested in the forensics too. If the cop is seated in his vehicle, and Brown leans in to grab his gun, wouldn't the gun have to be already out of the holster for the cop to shoot him? I'm having trouble imagining it - if Brown was able to get the gun out, then he would be holding the gun, and how would the cop shoot it if Brown was holding it?

It's going to drive me nuts that I can't think of the more technical wording for this, but aren't cop's guns held in holsters with multiple latches? It's easy for them to pull their guns out, but random passersby can't just, like, grab cops' guns like the Hamburglar grabbing a Big Mac out of somebody's hands.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:14 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Assuming the cop is right handed, would the holster be on the right side or left - i.e. would Brown have to reach across the seated cop, or straight down?
posted by desjardins at 10:16 AM on August 15, 2014

palomar, I have no idea if that's considered assault in Missouri, but it doesn't matter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:17 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

From the document set I linked earlier, here's an example of a PD's use of force guidelines. Namely, Richmond VA.

Parameters for the Use of Deadly Force:

Deadly force may only be used to:
1. Protect the officer or others from what is reasonably believed by the officer to be an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury;
2. Prevent the escape of a fleeing suspect when the officer has probable cause to believe the suspect has committed a felony involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical injury or death; AND, Escape of the suspect would post an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.
3. Dispatch an animal that represents a threat to public safety or as a humanitarian measure where the animal is seriously injured.

I don't see anything in this very typical description that seems to match the Brown shooting.

Also interesting in that document is the procedures to be followed following use of force. It would be very interesting to know what Ferguson's procedures are and how well they were or were not followed.
posted by phearlez at 10:17 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, it's good quality for surveillance video, maybe 15 frames per second? And the first three stills that were released are probably three frames in a row. You expect surveillance video to be slow frame rate, not that three stills represent a fraction of a second.
posted by smackfu at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2014

How can you *not* release the autopsy results in a case like this? Would a FOIA request work?
posted by uosuaq at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2014

Nope, he didn't commit assault.

Touching somebody without their consent - let alone shoving them - is assault.

He straight up assaulted the clerk.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:19 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

palomar, I have no idea if that's considered assault in Missouri, but it doesn't matter.

I thought about asking my cousin, who's a cop in Missouri, but unfortunately since joining the police force he's become exactly the kind of person who would try to justify this shooting any way possible, so... nope.
posted by palomar at 10:20 AM on August 15, 2014

When I think about the possibility for reform of the military-police-complex (or whatever), how weird it was to have some conservatives talking about the issue and the prospects for something happening, and now this "robbery gone wrong" spin, I remember how Rand Paul clarified his anti-drone position:

“I have never argued against any technology being used against having an imminent threat, [or] an act of crime going on,” Paul said, referring to Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. “If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him.”

Source
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Fine. He committed assault. So... he got what was coming to him?
posted by palomar at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

I don't see anything in this very typical description that seems to match the Brown shooting.

Based on the police calling the protesters animals, I wouldn't be surprised if the officer used the last one.

As far as the autopsy, the chief said it would be released, at one of the news conferences yesterday or Wednesday, but when a reporter said "I thought it wasn't going to be released", the chief had already moved on to answer some other reporter. So I don't know if it actually is getting released or not.
posted by cashman at 10:21 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Assuming the cop is right handed, would the holster be on the right side or left - i.e. would Brown have to reach across the seated cop, or straight down?

Showing up only to address technical gun questions: at least with private gun owners, where you prefer to holster your weapon depends not just on hand dominance but on eye dominance. For example, I'm right handed, but left eye dominant, so I shoot lefty and would sling or holster so that I could more easily fit the firearm to the left side of my body/face.
posted by corb at 10:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

After having watched the video, I used more force than that to stop my preschooler from running into a parking lot this morning, and with a greater size disparity, too. It wasn't the kind of behavior I'd expect someone to exhibit at Sunday dinner at Grandma's, but it was not a violent assault.
posted by KathrynT at 10:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Is it assault?" is a stupid derail. There's nothing there that would have incited the cop to stop Brown in the manner that he did, to conduct the attempted arrest as he did, and least of all shoot him in the fucking back as he fled. Attempting to thug-ify Brown in the name of fairness or "seeing both sides of the issue" when it has no relevance to his murder is seriously shitty.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:24 AM on August 15, 2014 [39 favorites]

Fine. He committed assault. So... he got what was coming to him?

What purpose is served by minimizing his actions ?

He assaulted and robbed the clerk. He was entitled to his rights even after that. By pretending he did not commit those crimes, or that they were innocent childhood shenanigans istead of serious crimes committed by an adult, you imply that he was not entitled to his rights after having done such a thing.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:25 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

How can you *not* release the autopsy results in a case like this?

NYTimes said: "On Wednesday, the St. Louis County medical examiner’s office said it would take two to three weeks to complete the autopsy of Mr. Brown, including a toxicology report, which is standard procedure in such deaths."
posted by smackfu at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014

Pogo_Fuzzybutt:

"Touching somebody without their consent - let alone shoving them - is assault.
He straight up assaulted the clerk."

If you want to go down that road you have to describe the entire event though.
It looks to me like they're in physical contact before the shove occurs. The shopkeeper puts himself between the door and Brown and attempts to block him. They're chest to chest in physical contact already at the time the shove finally occurs.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014

As teenagers, my cute little white girl friends probably stole hundreds or thousands in Claire's jewelry and fancy cheeses.

You guys shoplifted cheeses? For real? Where were you in my lawless teenage years??!
posted by rtha at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

I don't see anyone minimizing his actions. I see a lot of people saying that what he did was not really a felony.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:26 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Is it assault?" is a stupid derail. There's nothing there that would have incited the cop to stop Brown in the manner that he did, to conduct the attempted arrest as he did, and least of all shoot him in the fucking back as he fled. Attempting to thug-ify Brown in the name of fairness or "seeing both sides of the issue" when it has no relevance to his murder is seriously shitty.

QF fucking T
posted by scody at 10:27 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

More on legal standards for police use of deadly force. Also note that the witnesses disagree on whether Brown was fleeing.

(And to correct what I said earlier, it appears that the witnesses say that Brown was shot in the front, not the back. I must have misunderstood an earlier report or it was misreported.)
posted by klangklangston at 10:28 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

By the same token, what purpose is served by making it sound like he was a career criminal who planned the robbery then took everything in the store while beating the clerk to a pulp. The connotation most people have of "robbery and assault" and "strong arm robbery" is way more than what happened in the video.
posted by cashman at 10:28 AM on August 15, 2014

Wow, I feel for Capt Johnson. It's a Friday night and if my own frustration and anger is any gauge, I think there is going to be a lot more anger on the streets tonight than last night. He will be under a lot of pressure, my best wishes for him, he's in a difficult position.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:29 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

He assaulted and robbed the clerk. He was entitled to his rights even after that. By pretending he did not commit those crimes, or that they were innocent childhood shenanigans istead of serious crimes committed by an adult, you imply that he was not entitled to his rights after having done such a thing.

I make an issue of it because if we're going to do this dance about the officer being aware of the incident then it matters what the incident was. Is he responding to a 911 call about a violent robbery where someone was injured? Or is he responding to a call about a shouting match where someone pushed someone out of the way to commit petty theft?

To claim that it doesn't matter in analyzing the officer's response is just as inane as pretending they weren't working spin in releasing this simultaneous with the shooting officer's name.
posted by phearlez at 10:31 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

What more do we know about Darren Wilson?
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:32 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

... because right now the police department's obvious attempt to change the narrative seems to be working here too...
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:33 AM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

via Michael's family attorney: Nothing "that can justify the execution style murder of their child by this police officer as he held his hands up."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:34 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

What more do we know about Darren Wilson?

As someone noted on Twitter, a Google search on his name only brings up all the robbery stuff. He had plenty of time to wipe his social profiles clean.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

The clerk stuff is a big fat red herring. Agreeing for sake of argument that he had indeed committed MO's Assault Three, that does not justify what the cop did to him. We do not live in Dredd: cops do not have carte blanche to shoot people. There is no use in trying "thug-ify" him, nor is there any use in caviling over how hard he had pushed the clerk. It's a loser issue, without logical value, and only of rhetorical use to somebody trying to defend Brown's shooting. If were on the cops' side, I would be delighted to have people on the opposition get into a weird side argument about the minimum force required for assault to be considered assault.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Buzzfeed:

“Michael Brown’s family is beyond outraged at the devious way the police chief has chosen to disseminate piece mil information in a manner intended to assassinate the character of their son, following such a brutal assassination of his person in broad daylight.

There is nothing based on the facts that have been placed before us that can justify the execution style murder of their child by this police officer as he held his hands up, which is the universal sign of surrender.

The prolonged release of the officer’s name and then the subsequent alleged information regarding a robbery is the reason why the family and the local community have such distrust for the local law enforcement agencies.

It is no way transparent to release the still photographs alleged to be Michael Brown and refuse to release the photographs of the officer that executed him.

The police strategy of attempting to blame the victim will not divert our attention, from being focused on the autopsy, ballistics report and the trajectory of the bullets that caused Michael’s death and will demonstrate to the world this brutal execution of an unarmed teenager.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [29 favorites]

I see a lot of people saying that what he did was not really a felony.

And yeah, this is the fucking point. The Ferguson PD, and their racist/fascist apologists -- and I use those terms very soberly and intentionally -- will do whatever they can to frame this as a felony, thereby ensuring in this specific case that the use of deadly force is automatically considered justifiable and, more broadly, that the criminalization of being Young, Black, and Male continues unabated.
posted by scody at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

By pretending he did not commit those crimes, or that they were innocent childhood shenanigans istead of serious crimes committed by an adult, you imply that he was not entitled to his rights after having done such a thing.

Um... no. I am not implying that he was not entitled to his rights. I am flat-out saying, multiple times in this thread, that he did not deserve to die. Murdering him seems like a pretty fucking huge denial of rights to me, I don't know about you.

And to be frank, I've done many many worse things in my life than Mike Brown did. I went through a pretty serious shoplifting jag at around age 14 and probably stole hundreds of dollars worth of cigarettes, candy, books, CDs, a tiny Norwegian hand-crafted wood treasure chest shaped jewelry box... the list is endless. Assault? I beat the shit out of a couple of other kids in my high school when I was 18. And yet I'm still alive. I've never even faced punishment for these crimes I've committed. Mike Brown shoplifts some cigarillos, shoves the clerk out of his way while exiting the store... and he gets shot, and you want to tell me that because I don't think murder is an appropriate response to this crime, that I'm minimizing and trying to deny the dead their rights? WTF?
posted by palomar at 10:38 AM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

To claim that it doesn't matter in analyzing the officer's response is just as inane as pretending they weren't working spin in releasing this simultaneous with the shooting officer's name.

Was the officer responding to the robbery?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:38 AM on August 15, 2014

One of the reporters on CNN or MSNBC (they all kinda blur together) was asked if she knew why the police released all of this information about the robbery at the same time as the name of the officer. She said that she knew one reason was that a lot of the reporters had been pressing the cops to release information on the incident since it occurred so close in time to the shooting so there had been scuttlebutt it could be connected.

So it looks like this isn't just a matter of the police trying to muddy the waters (although I'm sure that's a happy side effect from their point of view) but that the reporters on the scene had been pressing for this information along with the shooter's name.
posted by Justinian at 10:39 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm sure that reporters in general wanted both of these categories of information, but it is obviously intentional that they were released more or less simultaneously.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Touching somebody without their consent - let alone shoving them - is assault.

There's the tiniest shred of an argument that he committed third-degree assault, which carries a maximum of a fifteen-day jail sentence. And that's before you take into account the fact that the clerk was probably falsely imprisoning him.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 10:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

So it looks like this isn't just a matter of the police trying to muddy the waters (although I'm sure that's a happy side effect from their point of view) but that the reporters on the scene had been pressing for this information along with the shooter's name.

I presume they're also pushing for info on the shooting, and got jack shit. So, yeah -- I don't agree. This release was 100% to put the blame on Brown, in my opinion.
posted by inigo2 at 10:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

I think the four stills chosen from the security vid are pretty much exactly trying to muddy the waters.
posted by Trochanter at 10:41 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

The stills show this as exactly what it is - a victim dirtying press conference.

Which, when you think about it, is either amazingly ballsy or amazingly dumb - Pretty sure most PDs would slip that stuff in amongst some other stuff or quietly leak it or something, instead of straight up making a case against the guy they killed at an event called specifically for the purpose.
posted by Artw at 10:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Ezra Klein: The police are the issue in Ferguson, not Michael Brown's character

During Friday's press conference, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson tried to sow doubt that Brown really was One Of The Good Ones. He released stills from a "strong-arm robbery" showing someone who might be Brown grabbing a convenience-store clerk by his collar and throwing him backwards. The Good Ones don't rob convenience stores. The Good Ones don't assault clerks.

But this is a sick conversation. The Good Ones don't deserve to be shot when they're surrendering. But neither does anyone else.

It doesn't matter that Michael Brown was starting college on Monday. And it doesn't matter if he was involved in a robbery on Saturday. What matters is the precise circumstances in which Officer Darren Wilson shot Brown.
[...]
This case is not about whether Michael Brown was One Of The Good Ones. It's not even about whether he robbed a convenience store. The penalty for stealing cigars from a convenience store is not death. This case is about whether Wilson was legally justified in shooting Michael Brown.

It is a powerful thing to give some men and women guns and charge them with protecting the peace. It is a powerful thing because it can so easily, and so quickly, become a dangerous thing. As a society, we strictly regulate when police officers can use deadly force. The question here is whether those rules were followed, not what kind of kid Michael Brown was.

posted by zombieflanders at 10:46 AM on August 15, 2014 [17 favorites]

Did we all decide that the person in that security video is actually Brown? I can't tell if that's him or not from those images.
posted by octothorpe at 10:46 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

There's the tiniest shred of an argument that he committed third-degree assault,

Or it's second-degree robbery, which is a class B felony.

I've certainly learned that if I'm ever stealing something to never, ever touch the person I'm stealing from.
posted by smackfu at 10:46 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

The machinations of the racist playbook are so, so obvious here that it's like an uncanny valley effect. They're not even trying to be clever or subtle. The scary thing is now that the apologists have even a remote, implausible, inconsistent shred of something to work with, it now becomes "woah woah woah, both sides are plausible, this one's a wash."
posted by naju at 10:47 AM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]

There's the tiniest shred of an argument that he committed third-degree assault, which carries a maximum of a fifteen-day jail sentence. And that's before you take into account the fact that the clerk was probably falsely imprisoning him.

This is wrong. Only subs 3 and 4 - the ones without physical contact - are Class C misdemeanors. The rest are Class A misdemeanors, punishable by up to one year in jail.

Either way, this is still a loser issue. Brown could have screamed "I AM GOING TO PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE", done so, and then immediately produced a notarized affidavit that he had done so. Still doesn't justify what happened.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:48 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

Is he responding to a 911 call about a violent robbery where someone was injured? Or is he responding to a call about a shouting match where someone pushed someone out of the way to commit petty theft?

The officer doesn't "respond to a 911 call"--he responds to whatever the police dispatcher says over the radio--which would presumably be a pretty minimal, police-code version of the incident. He would be exceedingly unlikely to have been given blow-by-blow details of exactly what occurred and exactly how much force was applied.

Fine. He committed assault. So... he got what was coming to him?

I can't find anybody, at all, in this thread making that claim (including Corb, who everyone jumped on simply for pointing out that a clear cut case of assault is, indeed, a clear cut case of assault [would anyone here be saying nonsense like "oh, this happens all the time on the basketball court!" if this were a video of a policeman manhandling someone?]). Clearly if the original accounts of the incident we received prove true, then this was a completely unjustified act of murder. On the other hand, we also now know that the original accounts we had were pretty wildly incomplete. Trying desperately to cling to our original impression in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary is just pointless. And complaining that the police release what is clearly germane evidence to any full account of what occurred that day simply because the evidence goes against your preferred narrative is truly disingenuous. Either we want the cops to be transparent or we don't. They ought to release all the evidence (including the autopsy and any ballistics report). We can certainly fault them for selectively holding evidence back. But we really can't complain about relevant evidence they do release simply because its implications are potentially partially exculpatory for the officer involved.

(I say "potentially partially exculpatory" because the evidence does, at the very least, provide a reason for the officer to initiate contact with Brown and to attempt to detain him--whereas in the original version of the story the cop was simply harassing him for no reason at all. It also provides some possible motive for Brown violently resisting that attempt at detention, which was also missing in the original account. Of course it provides no justification, at all, for the cop shooting an unarmed Brown after he had disengaged from the policeman. If that part of the story continues to hold up it seems to me to remain a clear case of unjustified homicide.)
posted by yoink at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

he evidence does, at the very least, provide a reason for the officer to initiate contact with Brown and to attempt to detain him

According to police statements, Officer Wilson's encounter with Brown was not in the context of any criminal activity. The two things seem to be unrelated.
posted by KathrynT at 10:51 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

This is wrong. Only subs 3 and 4 - the ones without physical contact - are Class C misdemeanors.

It's (3) and (5) that are class C. It doesn't appear that he did cause, or intended to cause, physical injury, so (1), (2), and (4) do not apply. I assume the clerk was not incapacitated, so (6) does not apply.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 10:52 AM on August 15, 2014

Ferguson Police Chief News Conference coming at 3:00pm Eastern. (in about an hour)
posted by cashman at 10:52 AM on August 15, 2014

The two things seem to be unrelated.

I find it highly unlikely.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Clearly if the original accounts of the incident we received prove true, then this was a completely unjustified act of murder.

So what is it now, if not unjustified murder? Because this sounds very much like an argument that, gosh, bad things happened on both sides, it's just so tragic, nothing can be done, but oops, that's what happens, too bad, so sad.
posted by palomar at 10:53 AM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

If the incidents are completely unrelated, then why release the information about the "robbery?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:55 AM on August 15, 2014

I find it highly unlikely.

On what basis? The Police Department said outright that Officer Wilson didn't stop Brown in the context of any prior criminal activity.
posted by KathrynT at 10:55 AM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

If the incidents are completely unrelated, then why release the information about the "robbery?"

Because the cops wanted to make it look better for them? By painting Brown as a criminal?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

American makes it trivially easy to put away young black men in jail for the most bullshit of reasons as it is. Let's not let the police push their power even one millimeter more towards allowing them any reason whatsoever to just go right to executing them on the street for those same bullshit reasons. If, as a police officer, you cannot effectively, legally, and safely identify, stop, detain and question someone then you need to rethink your choice of profession. If our police culture is such that doing this is not their primary investigatory aim then the whole culture needs to be burned to the ground.
posted by marylynn at 10:56 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Because the cops wanted to make it look better for them? By painting Brown as a criminal?

Well, fine, but then it makes Officer Wilson look even worse, having not even a wingnut's justification for stopping those boys.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:57 AM on August 15, 2014

[would anyone here be saying nonsense like "oh, this happens all the time on the basketball court!" if this were a video of a policeman manhandling someone?

Yes. Are you kidding me? If this whole case was a police officer shoving Brown, I would look at the video and say the same thing, that it was shitty that it happened, but lets not turn it into murder.

I don't appreciate you calling my comments nonsense. I do in fact see things like this all the time, and I'm not one of those people who takes anything a black man does and escalates it to super dangerous territory like we see on television and by the media.
posted by cashman at 10:58 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yoink sums it up pretty well: The issue to me isn't that the cops released the information about the supposed assault, it's that they have not released other information which is even more relevant like how many times Michael Brown was shot.

Seriously have they put forward any justification at all for not even saying how many times Brown was shot? Or is it a matter of "because fuck you that's why".
posted by Justinian at 10:59 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

yoink:

"I can't find anybody, at all, in this thread making that claim (including Corb, who everyone jumped on simply for pointing out that a clear cut case of assault is, indeed, a clear cut case of assault [would anyone here be saying nonsense like "oh, this happens all the time on the basketball court!" if this were a video of a policeman manhandling someone?])."

Again, going by the tape, there is physical contact initiated by the store employee prior to the shove.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 10:59 AM on August 15, 2014

If the incidents are completely unrelated, then why release the information about the "robbery?"

To muddy the waters. And it's obviously worked, given the number of people out there who are now like, "Oh, assault? Felony robbery? Well, I mean, it's sad that he died, but I guess this means he really was a thug, so..."
posted by palomar at 11:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

According to police statements, Officer Wilson's encounter with Brown was not in the context of any criminal activity.

This a thousand times. The shoplifting incident may as well have occurred a year ago as that same day. Officer Wilson didn't know about it according to the police and, thus, wasn't reacting to it. Releasing that information at the same time as his name serves the purposes of getting us all talking about details of the shoplifting incident and not about the murder and the atrocious, heavy handed police response to the protests. It was yet another cowardly and despicable act by that department.

Is outrageous that this discussion has suddenly turned into a debate about shoplifting cigerillos. But that was exactly, transparently the point of releasing the information now.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [28 favorites]

Missouri governor, Highway Patrol captain acknowledge concerns over police report on Michael Brown
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Missouri governor, Highway Patrol captain acknowledge concerns over police report on Michael Brown

Practically speaking, I'm not sure the Highway Patrol guy has any involvement in the actual shooting investigation. It's not like the Highway Patrol is actually replacing the police in town, or investigating crimes.
posted by smackfu at 11:04 AM on August 15, 2014

He would be exceedingly unlikely to have been given blow-by-blow details of exactly what occurred and exactly how much force was applied.

I've listened to plenty of hours of scanner traffic and the number of times there's no back-and-forth beyond the initial violation code and address information I could count on one hand. And I'm not listening in a region with only 20k people where there's less congestion.

I'll eat my left shoe if there wasn't at least a few sentences about the nature of what went on, particularly if they initially classified it as strong-arm robbery. Cops want to know what they're getting into.

And that's why I'm willing to push back on this subject which is, as Johnson says, not connected to the shooting. Because the effort is clearly to smear and set up expectations for the shooter that he's dealing with some sort of violent criminal by releasing a document with the legal classification of strong-arm robbery. NONE of it justifies what happened to Brown, so when the authorities try to put it out there to spin it as if this officer was expecting to deal with a violent robber I am going to yell NO HE WASN'T. Not just because he didn't know shit about shit, but because he COULDN'T have known shit about shit.
posted by phearlez at 11:05 AM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Missouri governor, Highway Patrol captain acknowledge concerns over police report on Michael Brown

Sounds like they could use their own Anger Translators. Reading in between the lines from Johnson's comments, it sounds like he wants to rip off Jackson's head and shit down his neck.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:07 AM on August 15, 2014

It's not like the Highway Patrol is actually replacing the police in town

Yes, they are. From here:

Nixon and Johnson spoke at a news conference discussing the different scene in Ferguson on Thursday night. Nixon on Thursday said he was putting Johnson and the highway patrol in charge of security in Ferguson, taking over command from the local law enforcement.

posted by palomar at 11:09 AM on August 15, 2014

This is all proceeding with such inevitability - the discussions around shoplifting, the justifications - that I'm more depressed about this whole thing today than ever. It turns out killing Mike Brown in cold blood wasn't enough, we can cart out his body and all take turns stabbing it. It only gets worse for his family from here on out.
posted by naju at 11:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

Well, fine, but then it makes Officer Wilson look even worse, having not even a wingnut's justification for stopping those boys.

Okay, right, but you get that the reason you are able to see this right away is because you are not a police brutality apologist and a racist, right? And you are presumably aware that a large percentage of the US population does not fall into this same category as you? Plenty of people are going to look at this as evidence that Brown deserved whatever he got.
posted by elizardbits at 11:11 AM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

"He looked like/probably was someone who pushed a clerk while stealing a box of cigarillos" is a good answer to the question "Why was officer Wilson's attention drawn to Michael Brown?" It is not a remotely adequate response to "why did your cop shoot an unarmed teen five or six times in broad daylight?" which is the thing I really want answered.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:16 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

How can you *not* release the autopsy results in a case like this?

Depending on the jurisdictional regulations, the police department/district attorney's office may prevent public release of the autopsy report. Officially they often claim that premature release may compromise the investigation.

This shouldn't prevent the next-of-kin from getting a copy of the report and there are many instances where the NOK or their attorney will approach the media with the information.

It can't be buried forever.
posted by Renoroc at 11:17 AM on August 15, 2014

Is Ferguson Anomalous?

Consider the division of a metropolitan area like St. Louis into politically autonomous municipalities like Ferguson, Mo. A small city of about 21,000, Ferguson is one of nearly 400 general-purpose governments in the St. Louis metropolitan area, which, as Peter Dreier, John Mollenkopf and Todd Swanstrom have shown, is one of the most politically fragmented of America’s metropolitan regions.

Local government law in the U.S. permits and encourages such fragmentation. It enables the division of metropolitan areas, not just into multiple municipalities, but into municipal systems that effectively sort the rich from the poor and offer each a very different set of resources and opportunities. Because of our long history of racial inequality, this economic sorting translates into racial sorting.

Compare Ferguson, where per capita income is less than $21,000 to Ladue, another St. Louis suburb, where per capita income is almost $88,000. Ferguson’s poverty rate is about 22 percent, while Ladue’s is 2 percent. Ferguson is about two-thirds African American and one-third white, while Ladue is 94 percent white and just 1 percent African American.

How does such sorting occur? The state of Missouri, like most American states, grants local municipalities the authority to determine zoning laws, to collect taxes and to spend the tax revenue they collect on public services that they make available to residents only. Ladue, like many prosperous suburbs, uses this zoning power to limit high-density development. It restricts large portions of its land area to single-family houses. It requires that those houses be built on large, and therefore expensive lots. As a consequence, the price of admission to Ladue is quite high. And, of course, admission to Ladue is what buys admission to its nationally recognized public schools.

In the early 20th century, St. Louis was one of only a handful of American cities to pass a racial zoning ordinance. No African American, that law ordained, could move to a city block that was 75 or more than 75 percent white.

In St. Louis County today, municipalities like Ladue achieve a very similar result through low-density zoning: a practice entirely consistent with liberal racial attitudes like “support for equal treatment, integration, and a large measure of toleration.”

see previously, The Ghetto Is Public Policy
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

If the officer knew about the alleged strong-arm robbery by two suspects, then why was he trying to stop them without backup? And why did he apparently just yell at them to get on the sidewalk, from his car? Is that...procedure when stopping potentially violent suspects?

If the officer didn't know about the alleged robbery and didn't know that Brown was a suspect, then Brown being a suspect is irrelevant. It's like when Trayvon Martin was killed and it came out that this one time he might have smoked the marijuana! So the fuck what? Zimmerman didn't know that and if he had...so what?
posted by rtha at 11:20 AM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Mapping the Spread of the Military’s Surplus Gear
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

CNN headline I just saw said that the killed teen was tied to a robbery.

Fuck
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:23 AM on August 15, 2014

CNN: "POLICE LINK SLAIN TEEN TO ROBBERY"
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:25 AM on August 15, 2014

NYTimes went with: "Police Identify Officer and Tie Teenager He Shot to Robbery"
posted by smackfu at 11:26 AM on August 15, 2014

“I would have liked to have been consulted,” Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson said at a news conference Friday morning.

Probably not for the last time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:27 AM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

I'm so glad county executive Charlie Dooley is seeking a special prosecutor. It seems increasingly clear that Robert McCulloch is far from objective here.

And yeah, I'm glad Capt. Ron Johnson called out this Keystone Cops crap of selectively releasing information without consulting or informing him.
posted by limeonaire at 11:28 AM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

This excerpt from the Vox link provided by Klang up thread seems relevant. It also appears to contradict the claim that Wilson was not aware of the incident at the store and that he was "dispatched to track down two people who committed a "strong-arm robbery" of a convenience store, and that Brown was the primary suspect in that robbery".

How? The only source is the Police Department, and they don't provide any evidence, they just say that Wilson knew about it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:32 AM on August 15, 2014

crayz: "PDF of released documents

On page 14 it says "4 to 6 shots""

Is that how many shots it takes to get drunk on power?
posted by symbioid at 11:35 AM on August 15, 2014

I was just casting my mind back over some violence that happened here in Minneapolis about ten years ago:

rioters destroyed a TV news car, set trash bins on fire, and there was some liquor store looting. Twenty-one people were prosecuted

Of course, those were college student hockey fans - jocks and frat bros - rioting after a hockey game. Somehow, the police managed to subdue a big crowd of violent drunks who were setting things on fire without shooting anyone. Even though there were more rioters than cops, even though the rioters were mostly big strong young men in the prime of life. No one ever says "and jailed teen was tied to the destruction of a news vehicle".

I would hands down rather have someone get into an altercation with a store clerk than set things on fire. Fire is dangerous.
posted by Frowner at 11:35 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

I agree they have incentive to say that whether or not it is true but what source could there possibly be besides the police department for what one of the officers knew?
posted by Justinian at 11:35 AM on August 15, 2014

I believe the previous source was a reporter who interviewed a police officer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:40 AM on August 15, 2014

“I would have liked to have been consulted,” Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson said at a news conference Friday morning.

Yeah, Ferguson PD want to fuck over Ron Johnson as much as they want to smear Mike Brown. It's bad enough that they were forced to abandon their Third Reich cosplay (god I love you for coining that, Artw). That it was a black man who was brought in to take away their authority and get all the good press for his trouble? Shit, I could hear the muttered chorus of "uppity" all the way here in California.
posted by scody at 11:42 AM on August 15, 2014 [32 favorites]

Nick Wing: When The Media Treats White Suspects And Killers Better Than Black Victims

This is by no means standard media protocol, but it happens frequently, deliberately or not. News reports often headline claims from police or other officials that appear unsympathetic or dismissive of black victims. Other times, the headlines seem to suggest that black victims are to blame for their own deaths, engaging in what critics sometimes allege is a form of character assassination. When contrasted with media portrayal of white suspects and accused murderers, the differences are more striking. News outlets often choose to run headlines that exhibit an air of disbelief at an alleged white killer's supposed actions. Sometimes, they appear to go out of their way to boost the suspect's character, carrying quotes from relatives or acquaintances that often paint even alleged murderers in a positive light.

Brian Beutler: The Ferguson Police Chief's Statement Is Only Making Things Worse

I’ve seen a number of people online entertain an obvious but important hypothetical series of events like the ones in Ferguson, only with races reversed. Among the reasons such a scenario is so hard for so many people to fathom is that we instinctually believe protests would be unnecessary if a black officer killed a white kid because justice would be meted out swiftly and transparently.

Do a quick Google search for news stories about a black police officer killing a white teenager and the internet will spit back dozens of stories about precisely the opposite scenario. Michael Brown after Michael Brown.

But you’ll also find the Orange, Texas case of Captain Robert Arnold, a black Ranger who wrongfully killed James Whitehead, a white former Marine. Whitehead spit racial slurs at Arnold, who was responding to an altercation at an auto parts store, but the police insisted the slurs had nothing to do with the use of force. Arnold’s name was released to the press immediately. He was placed on administrative leave following the shooting. A Grand Jury said it lacked sufficient evidence to recommend a prosecution, but Arnold was nevertheless suspended indefinitely because, as police chief Sam Kittrell told Arnold in a letter, “alternative measures on your part would have prevented the necessity of the use of deadly force.”

Perhaps the investigation into the Wilson shooting will proceed just as smoothly from this point forward. Perhaps Jackson will have compelling answers to the above questions next time he meets the press. But nothing we’ve seen so far inspires much confidence that any of these things will happen.

posted by zombieflanders at 11:44 AM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

I agree they have incentive to say that whether or not it is true but what source could there possibly be besides the police department for what one of the officers knew?

Dispatch recordings. Which you could call the PD as the source of, but it's verifiable.
posted by phearlez at 11:44 AM on August 15, 2014

After the link to the NYT map, I thought about asking this question in this thread but decided to split it off to Ask.Mefi: My county's police got 171 assault rifles from the Pentagon. Now what?

As I've said elsewhere this week, it's a goddamn buffet of horrifying across the board, and talking about any one piece of it that doesn't involve "another unarmed black kid shot repeatedly, killed" makes me a little uncomfortable, but the police militarization thing feels like something I could actually figure out concrete steps to do something about, as opposed to wishing the world were less fucking racist, so I'm trying to redirect my hours following Twitter feeds to something nominally more productive.
posted by deludingmyself at 12:03 PM on August 15, 2014

Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson speaking now. Started out making excuses for why the officer's name and the tape were released at the same time. It's just not believable dude.
posted by cashman at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2014

Given McCulloch's bizarre rant to a reporter and some of the other things alluded to upthread, my guess is that the timing of this is very specifically tuned to try to provoke trouble tonight. After all, they want to justify their violence and all their expensive toys, and if Ron Johnson's work is allowed to stand then they are going to look like vile fools. So they need to make sure things get out of control tonight.

So they put out this piece of work, and almost ostentatiously don't include context like the autopsy or the incident report for the *actual shooting*. They know the people protesting are going to recognize it as what is it -- an attempt to smear Mike Brown and claim he was worthless and thus his death justified -- and hope that they will feel so angry and powerless that violence will break out.
posted by tavella at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

Jackson live feed here
posted by cmfletcher at 12:07 PM on August 15, 2014

Jackson just reiterated that the initial contact between the officer and Michael brown was unrelated to the robbery.
posted by cashman at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Dispatch recordings. Which you could call the PD as the source of, but it's verifiable.

If the PD's claims are true, they should be able to produce a recording of the dispatch call Wilson was responding to. Are those recordings usually time stamped somehow?
posted by saulgoodman at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014

Savage Minds, 11 AUG: Who is a rioter?

Labeling a conflict as a “riot” is an inherently political act as it draws a rhetorical contrast between this event and others which it may superficially resemble but have been assigned alternate valences in the dominant narratives. For example the Stamp Act Protests or the Boston Tea Party also involved street protests, opposing groups taking sides, and illegal destruction of property but are considered rebellions, revolts, the harbingers of revolution.
...
Here’s one to look for in the coming days: rioting not only as threat of bodily harm or loss of property, but as a moral threat, the “mob mentality.” The seething mob acts against its own best interests because of its lack of restraint. In a similar vein to riot is to indulge in an excess of luxury, it is a display of gluttony. Rioters are criticized for deriving pleasure and personal gain at the expense of others.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Did he just say that the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown was not related to the robbery?
posted by sporkwort at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014

Ok, he's saying the contact was unrelated to the supposed robbery. So that pretty much settles it.
posted by Justinian at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Jackson also said that they looked at the tape and determined Dorian Johnson did not commit a crime, and was not complicit in a crime.
posted by cashman at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2014

Jackson just reiterated that the initial contact between the officer and Michael brown were unrelated to the robbery.

So now we know the video footage was just released to confuse things and prejudice popular opinion against Brown.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:09 PM on August 15, 2014 [58 favorites]

“I don’t recall.”

I know it's way up there, and holy shit this thread hauls ass, but this is one of the clearest signs someone in a government office is bullshitting you. Doesn't matter if it's the cops or what. That is a bullshit line only used by people making public statements who know they're full of shit.
posted by emptythought at 12:11 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

So now we know the video footage was just released to confuse things and prejudice popular opinion against Brown.

It's very sporting of him to admit that.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:11 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well, no, he says they've received numerous FOI requests for it. They are probably legally required to release the tape.
posted by Justinian at 12:12 PM on August 15, 2014

Well, no, he says they've received numerous FOI requests for it. They are probably legally required to release the tape.

How did anyone not affiliated with the investigation know to request a tape of the incident?

It's a good sign they're being honest about the irrelevance of the robbery claims now. With everybody watching closely, we might just get through this with at least a little bit of justice done in the end.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:13 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

They are probably legally required to release the tape.

to the requestors, not to the public.
posted by KathrynT at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Were they legally required to release stills that showed Brown in the worst possible light?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Why did the video come out if he was not a suspect?

Because the press asked for it.

Now where's the medical examiners report?
posted by cmfletcher at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

So now we know the video footage was just released to confuse things and prejudice popular opinion against Brown.

But it is, of course, all the proof the Ferguson PD needs to feel good about using excessive force against 4,000 animals. Un-fucking-believable levels of incompetence, malice and racist fuckery here.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Has anyone listened to the police dispatch tape that Anon released? (not that I trust them)
posted by desjardins at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2014

to the requestors, not to the public.

Eh? The media were the requestors, and the media are the people who played it all over the media.

The hypocrisy of the media is hilarious.

"GIVE US THE TAPE! GIVE US THE TAPE!"
[...]
"WHY DID YOU GIVE US THE TAPE? WHY DID YOU GIVE US THE TAPE?"
posted by Justinian at 12:17 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Trymaine Lee ‏@trymainelee 2m
Chief called officer Wilson gentle, that this is "absolutely devastating... He never meant for this to happen."
Ferguson, MO

... what. I mean, I'm sure he didn't start out his day planning to kill a teenager, but you don't shoot someone in the back multiple times accidentally.
posted by desjardins at 12:18 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Has anyone listened to the police dispatch tape that Anon released? (not that I trust them)

I listened to the first 15 minutes or so. But it's the St. Louis police dispatch, not the Ferguson PD.
posted by cashman at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Pogo_Fuzzybutt: "Nope, he didn't commit assault.

Touching somebody without their consent - let alone shoving them - is assault.

He straight up assaulted the clerk."

Under Missouri law, there are three levels of assault. The least serious offense – assault in the third degree – is a misdemeanor. A person is guilty of assault in the third degree if he:

* attempts to physically injure another person or recklessly causes physical injury to another
* negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon
* purposely threatens another person, causing that person to feel afraid that he is about to suffer serious physical injury
* recklessly engages in conduct that creates a grave risk of death or serious physical injury to another person
* intentionally engages in physical contact with another that the victim finds offensive or provocative, with knowledge that the victim will find it offensive or provocative, or
* knowingly engages in offensive or provocative contact with an incapacitated person.

(Mo. Ann. Stat. §565.070.)

A reckless act is one that is committed, not necessarily with intent to harm another, but without regard for the outcome. Pushing someone out of the way in a crowd so that you can get through, without intending to injure the person, could be an assault if the person falls and is injured. A negligent act is one which is not intentional but which occurs because the actor fails to exercise reasonable care. An accidental shooting can be a negligent assault if it results from a person not being careful enough when handling or firing a gun.

Looks like lack of regard for the outcome matters. That's a question to be determined elsewhere, and frankly, gets into being a bit of a derail, really. Because, again, if the officers life isn't in danger, there is no reason to shoot a fleeing suspect, unless there is a serious real concern of a danger to the public (in which case, this clearly isn't).

I read about the video the one witness took and watched it, but for some reason they didn't show jack shit except after the event? I don't quite get why they didn't show the earlier stuff?
posted by symbioid at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't think they were asking "why did you give us the tape?", they were asking "why did you give us the tape in this manner with this timing?"
posted by zug at 12:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Oh, well, the answer to that is that the police are incompetent.
posted by Justinian at 12:20 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

... what. I mean, I'm sure he didn't start out his day planning to kill a teenager, but you don't shoot someone in the back multiple times accidentally.

From what I understand from the witness testimony, The officer shot Brown in the back once, then Brown turned around and put his hands in the air. The officer then shot him in the head and chest and Brown fell. The officer then went and stood over Brown, and fired more shots.
posted by cashman at 12:20 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

can we stop with the is-it-legally-assault derail? the chief just said the shooting was not connected to the robbery in any way.
posted by desjardins at 12:21 PM on August 15, 2014 [12 favorites]

I don't think they were asking "why did you give us the tape?", they were asking "why did you give us the tape in this manner with this timing?"

And, of course, "why did you give us the tape and then wait five hours to tell us that it didn't matter?"
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:22 PM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

The hypocrisy of the media is hilarious.

IIRC, they also requested the number of shots fired. Has that been released?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:23 PM on August 15, 2014

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think that applies to the Ferguson PD and STL County PD for the most part.
posted by Foosnark at 12:23 PM on August 15, 2014

Can we FOI the FOI requests for that tape?
posted by sporkwort at 12:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

From CNN:

Documents released by Ferguson police Friday suggested that Wilson had reason to believe he was encountering a suspect in what Jackson said was a "strong-arm" robbery at a convenience store.

The documents said Wilson, who was treated for injuries after the shooting, was in the area searching for the suspect when he spotted Brown.

So I'm baffled here. The documents, as CNN is describing them, suggest that Wilson knew he was a suspect but the police chief keeps saying he didn't know he was a suspect.

Either he's released false documents, he's lying, or he's spectacularly incompetent. Possibly some combination of the three.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

The officer then went and stood over Brown, and fired more shots.

In for a penny, in for a pound, eh what?
posted by Trochanter at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2014

via Chris Geinder: Can someone in #Ferguson FOIA the FOIAs for this video to find out WTF Jackson is talking about? Cc: @blackink12 @ryanjreilly @WesleyLowery
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:26 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Joey Michaels: "So now we know the video footage was just released to confuse things and prejudice popular opinion against Brown.

But it is, of course, all the proof the Ferguson PD needs to feel good about using excessive force against 4,000 animals. Un-fucking-believable levels of incompetence, malice and racist fuckery here."

New Rule: If you feel compelled to call peaceful citizens, who are protesting government actions, "animals", and your job, as an officer of the law is to uphold the law and protect citizens, it is clear you do not see the individuals as citizens, thus you do not think they should be protected, thus you should be relieved of your duties because you are clearly incompetent at understanding just WHAT THE FUCK YOUR JOB IS. You fucknut.
posted by symbioid at 12:26 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Documents released by Ferguson police Friday suggested that Wilson had reason to believe he was encountering a suspect in what Jackson said was a "strong-arm" robbery at a convenience store.

The documents said Wilson, who was treated for injuries after the shooting, was in the area searching for the suspect when he spotted Brown.

Police chief says Wilson wasn't aware Mike Brown was a suspect.

posted by rhizome at 12:28 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

So I'm baffled here. The documents, as CNN is describing them, suggest that Wilson knew he was a suspect but the police chief keeps saying he didn't know he was a suspect.

I think it's probably CNN who is being incompetent here. My guess is they're moving from "There was a robbery. Wilson was in the area" to "Wilson was searching for a suspect to the robbery" without any actual link.
posted by Justinian at 12:29 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

desjardins: "... what. I mean, I'm sure he didn't start out his day planning to kill a teenager, but you don't shoot someone in the back multiple times accidentally."

"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times, it's enemy action." -- Auric Goldfinger
posted by symbioid at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

"GIVE US THE TAPE! GIVE US THE TAPE!"
[...]
"WHY DID YOU GIVE US THE TAPE? WHY DID YOU GIVE US THE TAPE?"

Um, this characterization is just disingenuous. The tape people are interested in is any video of the incident where, you know, Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Mike Brown.
posted by limeonaire at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2014 [16 favorites]

Releasing the robbery information at the same time as the officer's name was not incompetence or coincidence. They deliberately put a packet together, including clipping the worst-looking parts of the video, and then handed it to a press hungering for information. It was deliberate, and designed to muddy the waters.

There must be some information that proves Darren Wilson didn't know about the robbery at the time of the shooting, or else why would they be admitting there was no connection when they know Brown was involved in both incidents?
posted by sallybrown at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Progressives need to just fucking embrace this. The police want to argue that a criminal, unarmed, can be executed in broad daylight while surrendering. Let's have that national conversation, because the left has spent too damn long staying silent when the victims of our prison industrial complex aren't Stepford Wives, and fuck that.

This is really insane that the same people who treated their community like enemies to the point they needed to be removed from the streets are being left in charge of this investigation. The governor or president need to get on the god damn phone and send in the adults to take this over post-haste.
posted by crayz at 12:31 PM on August 15, 2014 [30 favorites]

TPM: Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo. police officer who was identified Friday as the cop that killed an unarmed black teenager last weekend, reportedly skipped town with his family days ago.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:33 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the front page of CNN still has the convenience store stills and the headline is:

"Police accuse Michael Brown of robbery
Officer who shot teen was white"

...
posted by lkc at 12:36 PM on August 15, 2014

I don't even know what to say.

The idea that suspected criminals are to be deprived of their right to due process - not arrested, booked, and tried, but shot on any pretext the "LEO" comes up with in the moment - should be anathema to any right-thinking person, not only as a violation of the 4th Amendment, but on a human level.

We need someone to go in here and sort this mess out post-haste, indeed, but regardless of whether Wilson knew he was pursuing a suspect or if he was just feeling especially in need of a power trip that moment and, "Hey, there's two likely lads to ego trip on!", please re-read my second paragraph.
posted by droplet at 12:40 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

USA Today reported that no one answered the door Friday at Wilson's Crestwood, Mo. home.

Remember our discussions of community demographics? Interesting wikipedia blurb about Crestwood in light of that:

As of the census[2] of 2010, there were 11,912 people, 5,153 households, and 3,348 families residing in the city. The population density was 3,308.9 inhabitants per square mile (1,277.6 /km2). There were 5,452 housing units at an average density of 1,514.4 per square mile (584.7 /km2). The racial makeup of the city was 93.8% White, 1.6% African American, 0.2% Native American, 2.4% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 0.4% from other races, and 1.7% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.9% of the population.
posted by phearlez at 12:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

contentious comment deleted and user given 24hrs off, please reload/stop responding...
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

If the Feds are conducting a parallel investigation, did the Freguson PD have to turn over any reports, information, video, etc. that they have over to the Feds? And if so, do the Feds, if requested, have to release that information?
posted by AceRock at 12:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

The shoe confusion on Twitter was actually partly MY fault guys. Got info from some locals that turned out to be mistaken. Definitely should have checked before I spread it. I should know better. But the Ferguson PD has lied and bumbled so much this week, I'm afraid I've started considering them guilty until proven innocent. Which is really rather unconstitutional of me, isn't it?
posted by BlueJae at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2014

How is a murder suspect allowed to skip town?
posted by ryoshu at 12:47 PM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]

Eh, don't blame yourself—I also thought, looking at the photos available, that Brown had changed his shoes. The main photo of Brown lying in the street did make it look like he was wearing sneakers, rather than slides and socks. (Also, yeah, everyone can stop calling those flip-flops now. Flip-flops are different.)
posted by limeonaire at 12:49 PM on August 15, 2014

This Vox article says "Wilson instead stopped Brown because he was jaywalking." Is that a paraphrase, or is that what Jackson actually told the press? Because given that he was walking down a suburban street like tens of millions of teenagers do every day, I can't see how that's not just a guy being detained for the crime of walking around while black.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Remember our discussions of community demographics? Interesting wikipedia blurb about Crestwood in light of that:

Missouri in general is a highly segregated state when it comes to race. Many of the African-American residents live in the larger cities and in segregated areas (by design by the white community going back decades). One should probably assume that if a town is mentioned in the state, it's very likely 90+% white. In Southwest Missouri, for example, black communities were actually expelled in race riots, or at the least, targeted and attacked by mobs.
posted by Atreides at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

How is a murder suspect allowed to skip town?

When no one in power thinks he's done anything wrong
posted by desjardins at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

This Vox article says "Wilson instead stopped Brown because he was jaywalking." Is that a paraphrase, or is that what Jackson actually told the press?

In the press conference, the answer I heard him give was something closer to "walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic"
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:01 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

oh, god, i have not read all the comments, but i have to say this

i worked in a convenience store - one night my partner was assaulted by a guy who tried to grab the till from her and i ended up swinging my broom at him to get him away, cause i thought he was slapping the shit out of her - he wasn't, but that's what it looked like

he ran, i ran after him, decided i didn't really want to catch him and settled for his license plate - he was arrested soon after

did i want him arrested? - sure

did i want him shot in the fucking back?

FUCK NO

there's no reason for something like that to happen
posted by pyramid termite at 1:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think it's probably CNN who is being incompetent here

I tend to subscribe to the theory of CNN's Razor: Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty, assume CNN is being incompetent.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:12 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Never Call The Cops Unless You Want Someone Killed
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:12 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Tim Dickinson of Rolling Stone appears to have evidence that someone livetweeted the shooting. (Warning: Brown's body is shown)
posted by Cash4Lead at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2014 [16 favorites]

Crestwood, I feel it is interesting to note, is about as far away as you can possibly get from Ferguson and still be in St. Louis County.
posted by BlueJae at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

sio43: Gawker shares those pictures here. Not graphic, per se, but tragic and you do see the body, so be warned.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014

How is a murder suspect allowed to skip town?

Is that really a thing, not being allowed to leave town, or is that just made-up fiction stuff? AFAIK, either you are in police custody or you aren't. If you aren't, they can issue a warrant, and you have to appear, but you don't have to stick around until then.
posted by smackfu at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014

sio42: If it's Android, you can use the share tweet option and pick your texting app, which will put the URL in a blank text. You can then copy that into a comment here. Presumably iPhones have a similar share option, but I'm not sure how it works.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2014

Antonio French posted a tweet that shows a pic of a Twitter timeline from supposedly right after the shooting, from the deck of an apt. I don't know how to link to a tweet on my phone or I'd put a link here.

Here you go
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:16 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is the compiled Twitter timeline of the witness in the apartment building: https://twitter.com/7im/timelines/499639344613695488
posted by keli at 1:16 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

There is much more tweet-related information (and more photos) at Cash4Lead's link than the Gawker link, FYI.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:16 PM on August 15, 2014

One of the people on television said something interesting. She said that in her experience, she wouldn't believe anything the chief was relaying about what the officer said. She said that she's had too many instances where officers get deposed and change their stories or otherwise say something that contradicts someone else's report of what they said or did or know. So she said until she hears it from the officer themselves, she doesn't really believe it.

So basically don't be surprised if it turns out that all of a sudden Wilson did indeed have details when he confronted Michael Brown.

I still wish that according to witnesses Wilson shooting brown 35 feet or whatever away from his car, then Wilson walking up on him and standing over him and shooting him over and over, would be something that nobody could get out of. But it's going to happen. That sucks.
posted by cashman at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

Johanes Mehserle skipped town before being arrested and it didn't figure in his trial at all.
posted by rhizome at 1:20 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

So she said until she hears it from the officer themselves, she doesn't really believe it.

I think I see a flaw in her reasoning.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:21 PM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

Some of you may know that in 2011 I was mugged. The guy -- a large, drunk, black man with more adult time incarcerated than free -- didn't stick me up, he (after sidling up to me while walking my dog and asking me lots of weird race-baiting questions) grabbed and shoved me while picking my pocket, which made it the state equivalent of strong-arm robbery. I wasn't seriously injured and indeed still had my cell phone so called the guy's description in immediately, and as it happened he was caught about 8 blocks away and is now in prison with state appeals exhausted.

(One point to mention here is that while I would argue he also assaulted me -- mostly to bump me off balance, I guess -- the prosecutors saw no reason to add that to his charges and indeed eventually dropped the only additionals, which were bail jumping charges related to his then-current probation status, when he pleaded.)

I certainly was angry at him, but it didn't turn me into a seething ball of victimhood wishing he were shot dead so I could regain my masculinity or whatever the motivation seems to be for the George Zimmermans of the world. I just wanted him caught, and given that he was already due in court for yet another felony robbery on top of his extensive rap sheet, that he would serve an appropriate amount of time in prison followed by close supervision.

Still, had he wrestled with the cop that arrested him and gotten shot, I'm not really sure how I'd feel about that. Certainly I think I'd still be disturbed if he were surrendering and shot in the street.

But, yeah, I don't think there's any reason to try to minimize what he did or put some sort of onus on the clerk here -- false imprisonment? are you fucking kidding me? Oh! The clerk started it by blocking the door! So, yes, maybe I see this from the victim's standpoint, and feel the claims of a strong-arm robbery are fully justified given what I've seen, but that is not at all the same thing as justifying what happened later.

On preview: Yeah, exactly. I am still capable of feeling that a) he was probably guilty of a felony and b) shot without justification.
And what a weird background photo that "Bruh" has. A hippieish almost-100% white crowd at an outdoor wedding decades ago? It's not on GIS at all.
posted by dhartung at 1:22 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Note that the Twitter witness, in response to the question "from behind?" responds: "the first two was, the next 5 weren't, he turned around." Meaning the first shot the Twitter witness heard was fired when Brown's back was to the officer rather than fired inside the cop car.

Clearly not ironclad and lots of potential holes there, but compelling.
posted by sallybrown at 1:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

And what a weird background photo that "Bruh" has. A hippieish almost-100% white crowd at an outdoor wedding decades ago? It's not on GIS at all.

That's Tim Dickinson's background photo. He's a white guy.
posted by Cash4Lead at 1:24 PM on August 15, 2014

I still wish that according to witnesses Wilson shooting brown 35 feet or whatever away from his car, then Wilson walking up on him and standing over him and shooting him over and over, would be something that nobody could get out of. But it's going to happen. That sucks.

The thing is that racist cops don't go around killing black people for kicks. They kill black people because they don't value the lives of black people. It's an important distinction. You don't really see cops killing people 'for no reason'. They always have a reason. It's just that they'd think twice about shooting a white guy in the same situation.

It's the same bullshit that lets people lob bombs from drones, make sad noises about 'collateral damage' when some innocent brown people get killed and then never do anything to stop it. They weren't trying to kill civilians, they just don't care enough about civilians to avoid killing them.
posted by empath at 1:26 PM on August 15, 2014 [23 favorites]

At some point incompetence and malice do intersect. For example the cops have not interviewed some or all of these witnesses yet and they are going on TV and giving interviews in which they recount their version of events. And because they have not been interviewed by the police there is no previous "on the record" account from them.

If I were a defense attorney that would be like Christmas if the cop gets charged. Because it'll be easy to argue that every single one of these witnesses save the first has had their testimony corrupted through exposure to other eyewitnesses testimony in the media.

Malice? Incompetence? The result is the same.
posted by Justinian at 1:27 PM on August 15, 2014 [16 favorites]

She said that she's had too many instances where officers get deposed and change their stories

I look forward to this brave new world where accused criminals change their stories on the stand and everyone believes them. So many innocent people will go free! Oh wait, just cops? Gotcha.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:27 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Thanks, Cash4Lead, I get it now. I've only ever seen a twitter 'collection' rarely.
posted by dhartung at 1:28 PM on August 15, 2014

Really good point, Justinian. Everything the Ferguson PD has done so far has been to benefit Ferguson PD, and not the public they're sworn to serve.
posted by MetalFingerz at 1:32 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

To protect our asses and serve ourselves.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:34 PM on August 15, 2014

How is a murder suspect allowed to skip town?

Is that really a thing, not being allowed to leave town, or is that just made-up fiction stuff? AFAIK, either you are in police custody or you aren't. If you aren't, they can issue a warrant, and you have to appear, but you don't have to stick around until then.

I've had friends unable to leave town because they were pointed at being present in the context of some violent attacks. So, I would like to believe that the same thing applies for probable murder suspect at least.
posted by lizarrd at 1:35 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

lizarrd: there was a court order, or they were merely asked, or something else?
posted by rhizome at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2014

ok, i've seen the msnbc video and i have to point out several things

i don't know that there was a robbery - it could have been that the kid was asked for I.D, didn't have it, slapped a dollar down and walked away - the transaction, or lack of it, isn't shown

two, the clerk's a damned idiot for trying to stop someone like that over a buck package of swishers (i think) and my boss would have fired me for that

three - it's clear to me that the initial contact was initiated by the clerk - that's assault, right there - shoving him back is self-defense - at worst, mutual assault, and not-biased peace officers aren't going to bother with a case like that

four - in my old town, they wouldn't bother with someone stealing a pack of swishers - just don't even bother to call them over shit like that because they won't prosecute

my old town could be downright racist, including some cops - but this would have petty bullshit that wouldn't have gotten any interest at all unless it got physical

the one time a group of kids shoplifted and the police came by, mostly because they wouldn't leave, they had me ban them in the presence of an officer so they could be arrested next time they showed up for trespassing - arresting them for shoplifting - forget it

in short, this video and the police presentation of this is the most petty ass bullshit imaginable and ferguson cops blew it way out of proportion to the point of murder

fuck them
posted by pyramid termite at 1:47 PM on August 15, 2014 [19 favorites]

yes, empath, that's a point that needs emphasis: The thing is that racist cops don't go around killing black people for kicks. They kill black people because they don't value the lives of black people. It's an important distinction. You don't really see cops killing people 'for no reason'. They always have a reason. It's just that they'd think twice about shooting a white guy in the same situation.

There is serious academic research showing police officers are more likely to shoot unarmed black men than unarmed white men. Here's an NPR piece from last year on the matter and a 2007 report funded by the Russell Sage Foundation and a bit from the Harvard Kennedy School in 2010. We've got lots of research in my office on it--and we don't even do any work related to police misconduct.
posted by crush-onastick at 1:49 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Is that really a thing, not being allowed to leave town, or is that just made-up fiction stuff? AFAIK, either you are in police custody or you aren't. If you aren't, they can issue a warrant, and you have to appear, but you don't have to stick around until then.

Generally when an armed person shoots an unarmed person in the back, then a couple times in the front as the unarmed person tries to surrender, the armed person is at a minimum detained, if not arrested. But in this case the murder suspect is allowed to leave town. Just a bit unusual.
posted by ryoshu at 1:50 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Someone should probably tell Anthony Gray that Saddam Hussein wasn't taken into custody peacefully, he was strung up like a dog.
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on August 15, 2014

As far as I understand it, this don't-leave-town stuff falls under the media trope of the Empty Cop Threat [one of several Straight Dope discussions]. Sure, they may go apeshit if you leave town and charge you with every tiny shred of evidence they have, but the fact -- the actual fact -- is that there are suspects all over the country who have just left town and spend their lives worrying, but probably not very much, about open warrants.

My take on this is that the court system, and the jails, are so clogged anyway, and while the arm of the law is long, it is patient (in fact remember that a speedy trial is a right of the accused) -- and they figure that most people will eventually get stopped running a red light or whatever and they'll get them back.

To the Supreme Court, there are specific circumstances during which you are under arrest or not.

(I'm not defending this guy at all, but you need to consider, ryoshu, that a) we don't know that they don't know where he is, b) that of all the types of homicide suspects a police officer with a family is the type most likely to return for trial if charged, and c) that this hasn't actually been ruled a murder investigation and almost certainly won't be until the authorities (St. Louis County Police, for what that's worth) complete their investigation, including a ruling of justified/unjustified. Only them can it become a "murder", despite public sentiment. Also, I have no desire to see his family suffer even if the determination is that he did this because he's a trigger-happy bigot.)
posted by dhartung at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

(For context, Gray is the family attorney and used Saddam Hussein as an example of a really bad guy who was taken into custody peacefully and not executed.)
posted by Justinian at 1:57 PM on August 15, 2014

This photo from the Milwaukee NMOS last night just makes me so sad.
posted by desjardins at 1:58 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

(For context, Gray is the family attorney and used Saddam Hussein as an example of a really bad guy who was taken into custody peacefully and not executed.)

According to this article from BBC, Saddam Hussein was taken into custody peacefully. (And then he had a trial, and was executed.) Am I missing something here?
posted by inigo2 at 2:00 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I tend to think that the Ferguson police chief knows when Officer Wilson left and probably where he is. He noted early on that several of his personnel were "taking vacation." I believe this was providing cover for the missing officer on administrative leave due to the shooting.
posted by maggieb at 2:02 PM on August 15, 2014

via Chris Hayes: Man to me just now: "That St Louis County police that came out a the tactical vehicles? That's who's patrolling all around here " "...they acting good now because y'all are here. But what you think's gonna happen when y'all leave? Tell *that* story." "I'm a taxpayer, and ever since I was a boy I've been told when County Brown roll up it's hands on the wheel, yes sir, no sir."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:02 PM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

Justinian, you are mistaken -- Hussein was captured without incident in December 2003 by members of the US military. He was hanged -- after a seeming farce of a trial, not to mention the inelegant circumstances of the execution itself -- in 2006. From what I can determine he was held in US custody throughout, and handed over after a death warrant was issued by an Iraqi judge. That judge was recently murdered by ISIS, according to media reports.
posted by dhartung at 2:03 PM on August 15, 2014

The thing about Wilson leaving town, and whether or not he was "under arrest" or "under suspicion" or whatever -

Whether or not he was under arrest is kind of beside the point, because he SURELY would have had to inform his commanding officer of what happened. And a responsible commanding officer would have understood that the shit was about to soon hit the fan, and that therefore he should probably stick around town to assist in the ensuing investigation accordingly. Whether or not he was under arrest or under suspicion.

Instead, he left town. If his C.O. had no awareness of his intent to do so, then fair enough. But if his C.O. DID know, then...this looks awfully bad.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on August 15, 2014

he should probably stick around town to assist in the ensuing investigation accordingly

Given what we have seen so far, I see no reason why the Ferguson police would want to assist an investigation.
posted by ryoshu at 2:08 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Justinian is maybe thinking of Qaddafi?
posted by elizardbits at 2:09 PM on August 15, 2014

What I Did After Police Killed My Son

After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through. [...]

Yes, there is good reason to think that many of these unjustifiable homicides by police across the country are racially motivated. But there is a lot more than that going on here. Our country is simply not paying enough attention to the terrible lack of accountability of police departments and the way it affects all of us—regardless of race or ethnicity. Because if a blond-haired, blue-eyed boy — that was my son, Michael — can be shot in the head under a street light with his hands cuffed behind his back, in front of five eyewitnesses (including his mother and sister), and his father was a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who flew in three wars for his country — that’s me — and I still couldn’t get anything done about it, then Joe the plumber and Javier the roofer aren’t going to be able to do anything about it either. [...]

In April of this year we passed a law that made Wisconsin the first state in the nation to mandate at legislative level that police-related deaths be reviewed by an outside agency. Ten days after it went into effect in May, local police shot a man sleeping on a park bench 15 times. It’s one of the first incidents to be investigated under the new law.

posted by desjardins at 2:10 PM on August 15, 2014 [49 favorites]

The Times-Picayune story revealed on Wednesday that a man was shot in the head by an officer during a traffic stop more than two days earlier, NOPD Superintendent Ronal Serpas apologized to the public, calling the failure to disclose the shooting "a complete snafu."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:14 PM on August 15, 2014

SNAFU stands for "Situation Normal: All Fucked Up"
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Situation normal

Situation normal
posted by Trochanter at 2:20 PM on August 15, 2014 [7 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen: yeah, that's just messed up. When I posted about it upthread it had just come to light. Since then Serpas has given one of my favorite quotes. Paraphrased: "Yeah, I thought it was odd that no one brought it up at any of the press conferences I was giving on unrelated subjects."
posted by komara at 2:25 PM on August 15, 2014

A mother’s grief: From Trayvon Martin to Michael Brown
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:25 PM on August 15, 2014

Ah, I found the paragraph I was looking for here:

Serpas said Thursday he had been “surprised” no reporters asked about the officer-involved shooting during news conferences held Monday and Tuesday to discuss Sunday’s drive-by shooting in the Lower 9th Ward. It is a common practice for reporters to ask off-topic questions at news conferences because it can be difficult to get comments from officials otherwise.

Serpas himself did not raise the topic at either briefing.

posted by komara at 2:28 PM on August 15, 2014

Children are the future.
posted by prefpara at 2:30 PM on August 15, 2014

Eyebrows Mcgee: If people get nothing else from this, Johnson has given a dramatic example that the road to public safety isn't "escalate and threaten until everyone gets scared and goes home" but "de-escalate and listen and allow people to express themselves without feeling threatened or silenced."

Honestly, i feel like part of the reason this doesn't fly is that there's a sizable portion of the american population who thinks that you don't negotiate with "these people". They want to see negroes put in their place for being uppity.

This is that same sizable chunk who thinks that the police crackdown was exactly what was needed because well, that group of people was doing that thing i just said. These are the same exact kinds of people who supported the dogs and firehoses.

Do you really think that any of those almost 100% white suburbs, or the almost 100% white police force, or the government around there with similar statistics doesn't have at least several people in who harbor that sort of attitude? because i believe it, personally, without a doubt. And i wouldn't be surprised if it was even a majority.

I also think, even outside of the racists, that there's a sizable chunk of people who think that regardless of if it's the actual right thing to do, that it's what makes sense to them to crack down like that. It's like throwing water on a grease fire, it's their first instinct, and if you didn't tell them why it was wrong it would be their first suggestion. Something to the effect of "well isn't that why we have riot police and stuff?". You'd be shocked at how many people would roll with that, and with the "well yea, if they threw something at the cops even if it's just a bottle, it's not a peaceful protest anymore and..." at which point they'd start loudly farting out of their mouths.

Basically, don't underestimate the american public thinking that riots need to be responded to with a crackdown, and to a lesser extent that them colored folk are ke-razy and need to be kept under control before they destroy this beautiful nation.

It doesn't matter if it's demonstrably right, if it doesn't feel right.

showbiz_liz: Isn't the FBI still investigating this entire incident? If this is trumped up, won't that come out?

It doesn't matter. The narrative has already been poisoned. The right wing hate machine is in full force online, and probably off as well. The entire thing will be framed with "alleged robbery suspect" or "who do you believe?" sort of garbage from now on no matter what happens.

The mission has been accomplished, to let the racists plant the seed of doubt.

I mean, the entire point of this is to create a "We report, you decide. Who do you really believe?" situation. And people will fucking eat it up.

jeffburdges: Anyone catch the "#Palestine stands with #Ferguson." image

I totally called it upthread about this being an iconic image. I think i've seen it more about these protests than any other. Yea, it's been misused in the context of "violence against police" by assholes, but it's still pretty much the photo.

klangklangston: if Brown was shot grabbing for a cop's gun, then that's justifiable.

No, no it's not. You don't get to slap in a couple "bonus shots" in the back just because you're angry. He was running away without the gun. So he gets shot for what, trying previously when he's not even without hand grabbing range anymore?

This is still garbage.

desjardins: Assuming the cop is right handed, would the holster be on the right side or left - i.e. would Brown have to reach across the seated cop, or straight down?

This is an excellent question. Keep saying this. People should not forget this as this drags on, it's a very important detail.

Also remember that many police holsters are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to prevent drawing by a suspect, and will not release or draw at obtuse angles. Many, if not all police departments now use these. They need to be released in specific way, by the dominant hand of the cop, and drawn at a specific angle. It's a natural release and draw if you're the person wearing the holster, but will bind up by design if you're not.

What kind of holsters do the Ferguson PD use? this is the kind of thing anonymous should be figuring out right now if they aren't already. Someone FOIA the acquisitions sheets for the PD and find the model #, etc.

naju: The machinations of the racist playbook are so, so obvious here that it's like an uncanny valley effect. They're not even trying to be clever or subtle. The scary thing is now that the apologists have even a remote, implausible, inconsistent shred of something to work with, it now becomes "woah woah woah, both sides are plausible, this one's a wash.

QF-fuckin-T. This is exactly what i was saying in the very first part of this post. They have already won a very major part of this battle, now. The entire battlefield has changed. Even a lot of the more moderate liberal/"progressives" are now falling in to "well i mean, there's like two sides to every story maaaan" territory.

This was not a bumbling move by noobs. This was a calculated, well thought out tactical strike. And it blew up exactly the targets that were intended with basically no collateral damage. Mainly, the assuredness of people who had any doubts about this that this was cut and dry fucked up. Which it still is, but there's just enough doubt now that those slightly-flaccid people won't go hardline on it.

And this is how they start to win, and change the narrative, and shut the whole thing down.
posted by emptythought at 2:31 PM on August 15, 2014 [25 favorites]

Locally, a woman was shot by the police in San Jose yesterday; she was bi-polar and was waving a black drill (like a handyman drill) around, and at officers. The incident is documented by someone with their cellphone, I gather the officers didn't know she was bipolar - the incident is being investigated. It's very sad.

I don't know that this helps the discussion, and I don't mean to muddy the waters by introducing a completely separate case with different circumstances, but I do think the gun culture creates more problems than it supposedly solves, and that officers are prone to using the tool that they have on-hand rather than observing the situation and using other skills than shooting to kill.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 2:33 PM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

lizarrd: there was a court order, or they were merely asked, or something else?

I don't entirely know didn't really ask honestly. As far as I could tell it wasn't a court order, but it wasn't an honest request. It was more of a "You need to stay in town until this is over, otherwise there might be some legal problems." Maybe there was one, I have no idea. If it was a court order, I assume they would've told me though.
posted by lizarrd at 2:36 PM on August 15, 2014

but I do think the gun culture creates more problems than it supposedly solves, and that officers are prone to using the tool that they have on-hand rather than observing the situation and using other skills than shooting to kill.

I think the #1 problem is that it's seen that any injury, ever to an officer is unacceptable. Even if it's at the very most a couple stitches type of injury. If there's any threat of injury at all, then shoot them rather than get poked with a screwdriver bit on a drill or something.

This seems to be generally accepted across the entire country as totally normal.

It's not just the guns, it's some machismo "how DARE you even TRY and hurt me" bullshit of putting people in their place. With a possible side dish of some drumming up and exaggerating of how dangerous various situations really are.

Club security gets threatened with this type of violence way more than cops, and they don't get to shoot anyone. Nor do they. They just tackle the people and sit on them, or strong arm them.

If it's going to be accepted that cops will respond to this type of quasi-threat with violence, can it at least be of the billy club and detached retinas variety rather than guns? because even that would be a massive improvement.

And wow, it seems like i came right back around to agreeing with you on the gun thing... heh.
posted by emptythought at 2:41 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

Wooops, yes it was Qaddafi. Anthony Gray knows his brutally executed dictators better than I do! Sorry, Anthony Gray!

Whatsishame the attorney for Zimmerman was just on the news and mentioned the same thing I did a little early about eyewitness testimony being corrupted before official police interviews.

A cynical person would see this as a deliberate strategy. I still see it as incompetence but like I said the two become blurred together when incompetence gets bad enough.
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

It was more of a "You need to stay in town until this is over, otherwise there might be some legal problems."

You said they were witnesses; in my experience as a witness in a criminal case prosecutors will ask the moon of you as a witness, regardless of how it might disrupt your life. And when court dates get jerked all around and rescheduled it most certainly will. I was asked to eat hundred of dollars in costs (not to mention work issues) to reschedule a vacation because they couldn't get their docket straight. I most certainly was told on multiple occasions that if I didn't then I would jeopardize the whole case.

Doesn't mean you have to do it, though certainly a less scrupulous attorney might imply sanctions.
posted by phearlez at 2:44 PM on August 15, 2014

CNN: "POLICE LINK SLAIN TEEN TO ROBBERY"

Jackson just reiterated that the initial contact between the officer and Michael brown was unrelated to the robbery.

Too late, narrative A wins. It doesn't matter if the state patrol captain states this over and over, the message has already been received.
posted by emptythought at 2:49 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

It's like the Mad Hatter's party here - "EVERYBODY CHANGE PLACES!"

From this article:

The officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown stopped Brown and another teen because they were walking in the street, not because of a robbery a few minutes earlier, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday afternoon.

Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

[emphasis mine]

So there was a robbery, but the officer didn't know, but then he did. Maybe. Depends on what we say at the next press briefing.
posted by komara at 2:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Off Twitter, Jake Tapper is linking to an article where Chief Jackson is quoted saying: the cop did not initially stop Brown because of the robbery, but the cop knew cigars had been stolen in the robbery, and when the cop saw Brown holding cigars, he thought Brown might be the robber. Source (komara has it above, on preview.)
posted by shortfuse at 2:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Also, do not chalk the release of that tape up to incompetence. It's a calculated move, and a fairly deft one. It's a perfectly timed parry.

Incompetence, stupidity, tone deafness, whatever, could not have landed this blow with this accuracy.

I don't think that's true. If they were smart, they would have set up the "criminal thug" narrative right away to prevent the story from picking up much too much steam in Liberal Whitelandia.
posted by zug at 2:59 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't think so. I think it would have mostly gotten lost in the shuffle while the protest and shitty cop behavior getting tons of media attention was still in full swing. They intentionally waited until it died down, and there were even photos of people riding theme park trains down main street and partying to drop this bomb.

It just wouldn't have had the intended effect before, there was too much other attention grabbing powerful stuff. Now the rage-fires were really waiting for more fuel to stoke them, and everything was sort of in a holding pattern.

With nothing pushing it forward the way it was going from where it had been, it was very easy for this to push it backwards, and break up the vocal "fuck this" contingent.

It's a deft move, and when you think about it, it makes perfect sense why they'd wait til now. And especially why they'd hand it out with the officer name details to try and second-fiddle that info and keep it from getting total attention.
posted by emptythought at 3:12 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Na, zug, they didn't expect this to blow up like it did. They thought they just pull this nonsense and get away with it. If they hadn't arrested media, they probably would have.

I will bet a shiny nickel that political operatives have been dispatched, and there are now serious people in suits who are managing the messaging, lest this translate into a sea change in local politics.

This obfuscation is deliberate, and it is likely to work. The entire narrative has become about the store and not about the gunning down of a American citizen, and subsequent military style invasion of the force to cover it up. The narrative isn't about how many bullets were found in the kid, but whether the kid shoplifted something. And note that no media are using the term shoplifting, but instead the significantly more memeticly loaded term robbery.

This was no mistake.
posted by dejah420 at 3:16 PM on August 15, 2014 [30 favorites]

Why didn't Jackson say the thing about Wilson seeing cigars in Brown's hand, at the press conference at 3pm today??? Reporters were asking questions with such extreme pausing it was obvious they were trying to get at the truth.

Then he turns around and says that to media? He's playing games. And that lady who said to not trust the word of Chief Jackson is right.

And this guy is getting off scott free. And Ron Johnson thinks he's dealing with people who are going to be on the up and up, but I think he's going to learn quickly that they are going to throw him under the bus.
posted by cashman at 3:17 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

there's nothing like trying to convict a guy of something when you've already shot him dead
posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

I still can't believe that Daily Beast article from upthread.
posted by stenseng at 3:25 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I will bet a shiny nickel that political operatives have been dispatched, and there are now serious people in suits who are managing the messaging, lest this translate into a sea change in local politics.

Indeed. This is a marked change from the total ineptitude of the past few days. We're witnessing a master class in narrative manipulation, all of a sudden.
posted by naju at 3:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Possibly just a dupe, roomthreeseventeen, it's here.
posted by dhartung at 3:47 PM on August 15, 2014

That's probably the real reason why they delayed the announcement.
posted by invitapriore at 3:48 PM on August 15, 2014

Another free speech victory. Right to record. #aclu-mo
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:51 PM on August 15, 2014

Can anyone confirm that the date in the upper left corner of the video is the date of the incident? I've been told it's dated June. I can't find a way to blow it up enough to read....
posted by Shotgun Shakespeare at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2014

Agreement stating that the media and members of the public have a right to record public events "without abridgement" unless it obstructs the activity or puts people in danger. Or physically interferes with cops doing their jobs. (1 page PDF)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:05 PM on August 15, 2014

Why didn't Jackson say the thing about Wilson seeing cigars in Brown's hand, at the press conference at 3pm today???

Don't fall for the trick. What the Police Chief is doing is changing stories so that commentary is all at cross purposes everywhere, everybody having to straighten everybody else out, and to establish himself as someone who does not want to be seen as a reliable source of information. Get everybody talking about this that and the other aspect of the "huh, which what" convenience store visit, and not on the officer who shot Mike Brown.

It doesn't matter if there were cigars in Mike Brown's hand. Nothing the Police Chief is talking about matters, because he is there to decrease the culpability of his department. Peri-fucking-id. The next thing that will add to the timeline of the actual issue is for him to release the incident report, which he refuses to do. Huh, imagine that.
posted by rhizome at 4:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [18 favorites]

The shoplifting incident is not connected to the murder-by-cop.

Continuing to speculate about it is a derail.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

Can anyone confirm that the date in the upper left corner of the video is the date of the incident? I've been told it's dated June. I can't find a way to blow it up enough to read....

Eh, the stills kind of maybe looked like it could be a 6 instead of an 8, but once the actual video was released it didn't look weird at all (to me). I don't think it's much in question whether Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson were in that store just before he was killed is it?
posted by sporkwort at 4:12 PM on August 15, 2014

ok, i've got to take some of that back - counter video here (st louis today site - shitty msnbc coverage is shitty)

it does look like the guy in the red cap straight up took them

still isn't worth shooting someone for, is it?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:13 PM on August 15, 2014

(My comment wasn't directed at you rhizome)
posted by futz at 4:13 PM on August 15, 2014

futz, I don't disagree that it's a derail. However, since the police seem to be injecting this story into the narrative for God knows what reason, I think it's very much relevant.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:14 PM on August 15, 2014

Can anyone confirm that the date in the upper left corner of the video is the date of the incident? I've been told it's dated June. I can't find a way to blow it up enough to read....

Viewing it fullscreen from here, it clearly says 2014-08-09.

But either way, if you're worried about the video, the question is: Assuming Michael Brown robbed a convenience store, is that what got him shot? If not, what did?
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:15 PM on August 15, 2014

The shoplifting incident is not connected to the murder-by-cop.

Continuing to speculate about it is a derail.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on August 15 [+] [!]

Not a derail at all. If Michael Brown shoplifted immediately preceding his murder by the cop, it's certainly a relevant piece of information. Now, from what we know at this point, it doesn't in any way absolve the cop from the extreme culpability of what he did. But arguing it's a derail is akin to putting your hands over your ears. Won't change a thing.
posted by learnsome at 4:17 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Not a derail at all. If Michael Brown shoplifted immediately preceding his murder by the cop, it's certainly a relevant piece of information.

It is, actually. The police chief made it pretty clear in his press conference this morning that the officer who shot Mike Brown did not know about the shoplifting and approached them because they were not on the sidewalk.
posted by zug at 4:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

This is really insane that the same people who treated their community like enemies to the point they needed to be removed from the streets are being left in charge of this investigation. The governor or president need to get on the god damn phone and send in the adults to take this over post-haste.
posted by crayz at 12:31 PM on August 15 [17 favorites +] [!]

I don't disagree with you that it's particularly odd that nobody's watching the watchers, but I wish there were adults to send in. Everywhere I turn, it seems that the "adults" are not much better.
posted by learnsome at 4:20 PM on August 15, 2014

Not a derail at all. If Michael Brown shoplifted immediately preceding his murder by the cop, it's certainly a relevant piece of information.

If (and we don't know for sure) the cop who killed Michael didn't know anything about the alleged shoplifting incident, it is entirely irrelevant.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:21 PM on August 15, 2014

It is, actually. The police chief made it pretty clear in his press conference this morning that the officer who shot Mike Brown did not know about the shoplifting and approached them because they were not on the sidewalk.

It would still be relevant to a defense case because even if the officer did not know, Brown would have known and could reasonably be thought to have assumed the officer knew as well. That's what I'd expect a defense lawyer to argue at least.
posted by Justinian at 4:22 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

still isn't worth shooting someone for, is it?

I do not believe anyone here has advanced that argument.

I'm more in the corner, anyway, of suspecting that it may be relevant to Brown's actions during the police encounter, rather than (necessarily) Wilson's actions. If he thought he was likely to be arrested for a felony, then he would probably be more likely to resist or counter any actions by the policeman, regardless of who initiated any physical contact.

I, for one, was wondering about this from the beginning, as it didn't make sense for a kid with no criminal record, going to college, etc. reacting with violence to a jaywalking summons.

This still shouldn't justify him getting shot with his hands up, but it's certainly relevant to the public perception of the incident.
posted by dhartung at 4:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

It is, actually. The police chief made it pretty clear in his press conference this morning that the officer who shot Mike Brown did not know about the shoplifting and approached them because they were not on the sidewalk.
posted by zug at 4:19 PM on August 15 [+] [!]

Please read my comment more closely. I didn't say that the shoplifting allegation absolved the cop (from what we know at this point, it seems like nothing will), but it might go to Michael Brown's state of mind, etc. Seriously, screaming derail at this kind of contemporaneous information is odd.
posted by learnsome at 4:23 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

unless, of course, it wasn't brown who did that
posted by pyramid termite at 4:23 PM on August 15, 2014

The cops have said that the two incidents weren't related. I don't belive anything that they are saying for the most part but in this one instance it seems that their story of events would be benefit from claiming that the cop knew that Mike Brown had "robbed" the store. They are not saying that. They are saying that Brown was walking in the street.
posted by futz at 4:24 PM on August 15, 2014

pyramid termite, please remember that the first many of us heard of "rillos" was the second friend, several days ago.
posted by dhartung at 4:26 PM on August 15, 2014

and let's face it - seeing as there was no transparency immediately about the whole business - why wait a week to make these allegations? - what can the ferguson police say about the chain of custody of the evidence they're attempting to present and why should anyone believe it?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:27 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Seriously, screaming derail at this kind of contemporaneous information is odd.

Who is screaming? Odd choice of words.
posted by futz at 4:28 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Also, guess what? Stealing some cigars doesn't mean you're going to attempt to wrestle away a cop's gun, or straight up assault someone that you know is carrying a weapon, when you don't have any weapon.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:29 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

OK, go full Alex Jones on this if you like, pyramid termite. I'm not going to engage that further.

23skidoo, I am talking about his actions before any gunfire. Are you actually suggesting that the cop drew his gun before any physical contact whatsoever? Being indifferent to the killing of a black suspect is miles away from being a first-degree intentional killer, and I would like to know something about how you make that leap.
posted by dhartung at 4:30 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's not even clear that it's shoplifting, for all we know they left money on the counter, the view is blocked. Video can be misleading.

Case in point, a couple of years ago, a Philly cop flat-out decked a woman in the face hard enough to knock her to the ground. There was clear video of the incident, but the cop was totally exonerated based on how misleading video can be because of angles and context and stuff.

(Gee what's different here.)
posted by desuetude at 4:31 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

Sorry, yes, I should keep remembering to type alleged shoplifting. We have no idea.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:32 PM on August 15, 2014

Just to be clear, everyone reflect on what we're now discussing.

They won.

It worked.

Where did this asshole cop goes? WHO KNOWS LOL!

Where's the autopsy report? see above!

Where's any actual report from the scene of the shooting? Yep

Where's any of other bits of info that have nothing to do with this stupid suspected shoplifting bit? Doesn't matter, because no ones talking about it anymore!

I just watched this happen everywhere. Everyone shifted gears. Everyone who claims to be adamantly against this crap responded to "jump" with "how high?"

Disgusting.
posted by emptythought at 4:36 PM on August 15, 2014 [42 favorites]

Alleged strongarm robbery. Not alleged to the police though. The words that the cops chose to describe what happened are very telling.

But hey! The strongarm robbery isn't connected to his death. They just thought they'd throw that out there...because.
posted by futz at 4:40 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Props to emptythought for saying it better than I did.
posted by futz at 4:43 PM on August 15, 2014

23skidoo, you believe that if you like, but it probably means that this cop's future defense lawyer just got an acquittal. Assuming he ever needs one.

I suppose there's an outside shot at a federal civil rights prosecution (as with the Rodney King incident), but that would be a pretty steep uphill battle as well.

Technically, Mike Brown will not be on trial, but you have got to understand that the question of how this scuffle got started is central, and "bigot cop just decided to beat, then kill random black kid for no reason whatsoever" never really made sense as a narrative, no matter how much we feel it to be relevant.
posted by dhartung at 4:45 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

we can discuss more than one thing - and i'm sure, in the coming weeks, we will discuss those other things quite a lot in this thread
posted by pyramid termite at 4:46 PM on August 15, 2014

So even if you (generically you, I'm deliberately straw-manning this first part) think that Michael Brown stole that bag of crisps and capital punishment is fine for that.

Fine. I don't believe it, but I'll concede that. Let's get all that crap out of the way. Kid was out of control, cop was justified in capping him.

Now let's talk about the rest of the response. Not "open inquiry", but drive the APC carriers in, let loose with the wooden and rubber bullets and smoke grenades, deploy tear gas into people's back yards, confiscate journalists' cameras and people's cell phones, tell people to disperse and then arrest them without giving them time to disperse.

Whatever you think about the Michael Brown part of this incident, if you're talking about that shoplifting allegation at all, you just got played.

There's two solid parts of ugly to this situation, and, I hate to say it, but black kids all across America get gunned down by cops all the time. That's horrible and awful, and the first part of ugly, but that's not what made this situation truly noteworthy.

What made this absolutely noteworthy was that rather than saying "we're sensitive to the concerns of the community", or even "we want to minimize the damage from mob violence", the law enforcement community, across 4 agencies, said "fuck you animals, we want to cosplay Call of Duty".

Didn't even try to hide the racism or contempt. And in the follow-ups, Thomas Jackson has continued to display that: the fact that he doesn't serve the community at all, he's just there to play dress up and beat on the black people.

So, yeah: I don't think Michael Brown is irrelevant, but if you do? That's fine. Let's talk about the rest of the horrible ugly.
posted by straw at 4:52 PM on August 15, 2014 [16 favorites]

They were tone deaf and clueless into their response on the scene, but their actions afterward show a clear enough understanding of the modern media landscape. Facebook scrubbed, suspect absconded, and distraction-stick tossed before the name is released. There is no way he is not bunkered down with some lawyer right now drawing the map of his escape from justice and the longer the wait before something happens or some investigation launched the greater the odds of that escape succeeding.
posted by absalom at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

if you're talking about that shoplifting allegation at all, you just got played.

but if we let the narrative stand as the ferguson police have presented it, we get played, too, don't we?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2014

I'm not on board with the "they've won/the [one single?] narrative has been changed/they are master propagandists/the cop will get away scot free" line of thought. It's true that people looking for a way to dismiss this young man now have one, but there's finally a *huge* amount of attention on this story, so I'm still hopeful the facts will come out and the cop (who, as neither a judge or juror, I'm kind of assuming is pretty guilty) will face some justice. It's still early days, as much as I'd like some answers now. If, for example, there's a single entry wound (let alone two) in Michael Brown's back, that's going to be hard to play down.
posted by uosuaq at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can you be more explicit? Are you saying a court would never buy "Bigot cop kills kid for no reason", or are you saying you don't believe it? Because "Bigot cop decides to escalate a pushing match into brandishing his weapon, and then ends up shooting the person" makes a shit ton of sense as a narrative to me.

I'm not them, but I think the main deal of what's going to happen here is that if and when this hits a court room, federal or not, they're going to give it 120% on pushing "lol look at this thugged out robber black kid" and painting him as some gangbanging criminal miscreant.

What they're doing right now is foreplay, to preload public opinion. In a very vague sense, it's jury tampering. I mean other than what i said above about it destroying public discourse, it's also intended to ease off the cop in the trial a lot.

And i think that's what they're getting at. You can't sell that hard-nosed narrative against this narrative without bringing out the "riiiiight" in a lot of people. And that's exactly what they want. To paint the prosecution, and anyone against the cop and the PDs activities still as basically the racial equivalent of tumblr feminazis, as far as public opinion and mindset by that type of person who readily accepts this preloading goes.

There's a large element of "race is off the table" here, as the unspoken motivation. The derail into the alleged shoplifting was part of that.

This is EXACTLY the kind of shit we saw in the Martin case. Why buy it again? We should all know better, and recognize it for exactly what it is.
posted by emptythought at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

If he thought he was likely to be arrested for a felony, then he would probably be more likely to resist or counter any actions by the policeman, regardless of who initiated any physical contact.

You've just made the case for a perfect authoritarian state. Any of us could be arrested for a felony at any time due to mistaken identity, African Americans moreso. Do you know who Anthony Graber is?

The charges might be unlikely to stick, but the arrest could happen. In light of actual history, your argument supports absolute supplication in the face of any law enforcement attention, even if they are asserting a mistaken interpretation of the law, or inventing it from whole cloth. Felony arrest is always possible, and law enforcement has a history of experiencing no effect on their careers for doing so, especially with regards to African Americans.

"bigot cop just decided to beat, then kill random black kid for no reason whatsoever" never really made sense as a narrative

This isn't the narrative, and to the degree it exists in the wild, it stacks the deck in favor of the cop by requiring a perfect absence of motive. Also, Mike Brown wasn't beaten. It's not that he was killed for no reason, it's that he was killed for no legal reason, for no good reason. Nothing about the convenience store speaks to this.
posted by rhizome at 4:57 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

but if we let the narrative stand as the ferguson police have presented it, we get played, too, don't we?

Well yeah. It's obviously bullshit. I would love to see someone get Thomas Jackson under oath, because that guy can't talk for 30 seconds without changing his story, and if ya got him under oath then you could prosecute him for perjury.

But anyone who buys into any bit of that narrative laid out today, who thinks it's remotely relevant, isn't going to have their mind changed anyway.

So let's find a way to all four of the totally incompetent police departments which inflamed this situation, and the police officer's union that's supporting them, fired, disbanded, knocked back to carrying walkie-talkies around malls.

And then start to clean up the rest of the country.
posted by straw at 5:07 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

What they're doing right now is foreplay, to preload public opinion. In a very vague sense, it's jury tampering. I mean other than what i said above about it destroying public discourse, it's also intended to ease off the cop in the trial a lot.

Yep, and they're also, under the guise of complying with FOIA requests, offering up information that is ARGUABLY INADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE IN A CRIMINAL TRIAL - that is, evidence which is unrelated to the shooting, which goes to the moral character of the victim. They've already started to run around the legal system.
posted by naju at 5:08 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

If it was relevant, the police department would have said something about it approximately one second after the shooting happened.
posted by rhizome at 5:11 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

straw, the union claims that no lawful protesters were injured - that's a flatout lie - i saw for myself on the livestreams wed that lawful citizens were injured

i have to disagree on one small point - i don't want these assholes in any damned shopping malls
posted by pyramid termite at 5:13 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Re: my point about the shoplifting video being inadmissible evidence in court... here's the applicable outline.

* Victim's violent disposition is relevant in self-defense cases to
(1) whether Defendant's fear was reasonable (Defendant has to know about it - thus doesn't apply)

(2) whether Victim was the aggressor (Defendant doesn't have to know about it)
- if Defendant doesn't know about it, evidence is carefully limited to close cases
- Victim's criminal record not relevant here

IN ADDITION, the court may exclude relevant evidence if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of one or more of the following: unfair prejudice, confusing the issues, misleading the jury, undue delay, wasting time, or needlessly presenting cumulative evidence.
posted by naju at 5:28 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Relevant: Tennessee v. Garner
posted by rhizome at 5:38 PM on August 15, 2014

So let's find a way to all four of the totally incompetent police departments which inflamed this situation, and the police officer's union that's supporting them, fired, disbanded, knocked back to carrying walkie-talkies around malls.

Watch out with that one, then you end up here in my town.
posted by emptythought at 5:39 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Ferguson convenience store owner's lawyer says store employees didn't call police after alleged robbery.
posted by AceRock at 5:53 PM on August 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

AceRock, does the police report say it was an employee? I actually don't think it makes a difference if it was an employee or a customer. That point is a huge derail to me.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:56 PM on August 15, 2014

Well, in one of those videos above, the police chief (Jackson?) said they had been sitting on the surveillance video for days, and they just had to release it today because of FOI requests. The article says that they came with a search warrant for the surveillance video today (Friday).
posted by Weeping_angel at 6:00 PM on August 15, 2014

Real journalism might involve an FOIA request for those FOIA requests.
posted by straw at 6:14 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

naju: You're reaching big time; the video would almost certainly IMO be ruled admissible. Not as a way to establish the character of the victim but because it would very easily (and reasonably) be argued that it helps establish the mindset of the victim at the time of the shooting. Because it happend minutes earlier. You would be correct if it had happend weeks or months or years ago but it didn't, it happened immediately prior to the shooting.

I feel like I should put a disclaimer now since some people got angry with me during the Zimmerman trial because they couldn't distinguish between me arguing what I thought the law was and what I think happened and who was at fault. So: I'm saying what I think the law would allow, not commenting on whether the cop is guilty of murder or anything else.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Here, have some petitions!
posted by Strass at 6:23 PM on August 15, 2014

This is like the IRS swat team kicks down someones door and shoots their dog and repossesses their house and then when the community asks wtf happened, IRS publishes some documents about the owner missing a checkbox on a 1040 form.

The dog whistle racism of it all is so loud it's giving me a migraine. How many white parents would like to raise their hand to volunteer their 18 year old shoplifting sons for summary police execution?
posted by crayz at 6:29 PM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

since some people got angry with me during the Zimmerman trial because they couldn't distinguish between me arguing what I thought the law was and what I think happened and who was at fault

IIRC it looked more like you were the one who couldn't distinguish, because you were interfering with conversation about what might have happened and who was at fault, as if everything was submitted to your legal interpretation. If you push your armchair lawyerin' into other people's non-law talk, don't be surprised if they don't thank you for the service rendered.
posted by fleacircus at 6:38 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Onion Magazine's Sunday cover
posted by argonauta at 6:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [8 favorites]

Justinian, you're saying Mike Brown was killed because of his state of mind?
posted by rhizome at 6:43 PM on August 15, 2014

> Ferguson convenience store owner's lawyer says store employees didn't call police after alleged robbery.

Extra weirdness.
posted by nangar at 6:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Which makes sense, as it's incredibly petty theft where nobody was hurt. I'm sure we'll still hear about how it shows Brown was a thug and a cop-killer in waiting, though.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:46 PM on August 15, 2014

What I'd like to hear from the store owner or Dorian Johnson is what occurred while Brown was at the counter before he reached across. It seems like something was said. I'd like to know what.

P.S. Brown family attorney Anthony Grey just made me spit coffee out of my mouth. He was on the Maddow show and told Rachel that the Brown family is asking people to stay peaceful and, "Don't take the bait. Don't fall for the banana in the tailpipe."
posted by ob1quixote at 6:46 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

Trevon Moore, 11
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:48 PM on August 15, 2014

Don't read the comments on "Trevon Moore, 11".
posted by uosuaq at 6:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think it's pretty clear why they haven't released the incident report for the shooting; they haven't finished editing it. They are deploying their story, and then modifying it to cover whatever holes are pointed out (ie, suddenly Brown is holding a pack of swishers and that's why he was stopped), and then will release an 'incident report' that matches.
posted by tavella at 7:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Are you actually suggesting that the cop drew his gun before any physical contact whatsoever?

I didn't make the original comment, but: I don't see that as impossible, or even that unreasonable, or even that unique.

Being indifferent to the killing of a black suspect is miles away from being a first-degree intentional killer, and I would like to know something about how you make that leap.

Because police (and other people) sometimes like to escalate situations when they feel they've been disrespected.
posted by inigo2 at 7:23 PM on August 15, 2014

I think it's pretty clear why they haven't released the incident report for the shooting; they haven't finished editing it. They are deploying their story, and then modifying it to cover whatever holes are pointed out (ie, suddenly Brown is holding a pack of swishers and that's why he was stopped), and then will release an 'incident report' that matches.

Makes me wonder what a document forensics team could uncover.
posted by Artw at 7:28 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Stonekettle Station: Pressure Cooker

I’m not surprised or shocked in any way whatsoever.

And I doubt you are either.

Oh we’re appalled, sure. Some of us are disgusted with the behavior of the rioters and the looters and the protesters. And some of us are disgusted with the behavior of the police and the various governments. Like Israel and Gaza, we’ve all got our usual suspects to blame for the conflict, our side to root for and cheer on. But still, whatever side we’re on, we’re all disturbed by the images on our screens.

But we’re not surprised. Are we?

And, you know, that’s worst the part, isn’t it? That, right there. None of us are shocked or surprised. No. This is exactly what we expect in America.

We’re used to it.

I’d like to say I’m outraged, and I am to a certain extent, but not nearly as much as I should be, because the violence, on both sides of the street, cops and protesters, is the norm and not the exception.

I’d have been surprised if it didn’t happen.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:35 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

/handjob motion at "both sides".
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

I'm not much for more-cynical-than-thou condescension.
posted by rhizome at 7:46 PM on August 15, 2014

Well, whatever. "Both sides" rhetoric is weak, cowardly garbage that defaults to siding with the strongest side through passivity and false equivalence. Fuck the "both sides" game.
posted by Artw at 7:51 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

We don't disagree. I was commenting on the Stonekettle thing.
posted by rhizome at 7:51 PM on August 15, 2014

Any live feeds tonight?
posted by uosuaq at 7:52 PM on August 15, 2014

Stonekettle Station: Pressure Cooker

At its core, this is about racism – both the individual and the institutionalized kind.

Yes, it's about race. Yes it is. That is the very crux of the matter.

And don’t try to pretend that it’s not. Race and how we view race in America from our various perspectives always shapes how we perceive incidents like this. Everything, the inevitable violence, the mollifying empty promises, the gravid media analysis, the openly racist comments, the subtly racist comments, the contemptuous dismissal of the race issue, everything that always follows this kind of event depends from this basic fact: In America it’s always about race.

Ignoring that fact or pretending that it’s not so in order to avoid dealing with it is precisely why it continues day in and day out.

When the police refer to the black population as “animals,” on record, to a reporter, it’s about race.

When the population is predominately black and the police force is predominately white, it’s about race.

When the dialog focuses on the dead teenager’s appearance, his clothing, his friends, his school record, his family, his habits and haunts and hangouts, when the media publically debates whether he was a “good son” or a “thug,” it’s about race.

When the media openly speculates about the victim’s possible drug use or criminal history, it’s about race.

When your perception of the dead teen’s guilt or innocence is determined by which political party you belong to or which political pundit you listen to, it’s about race.

When you attempt to justify the death of a black teenager because other black people smashed windows and lit shit on fire in protest, it’s about race.

When you attempt to dismiss another dead black teenager at the hands of the police by quoting statistics about “black on black” crime, it’s about race.

When you’re more outraged about the unconstitutional arrest and intimidation of white reporters than you are about the unconstitutional shooting of a black teenager, it’s about race.

When you’re more concerned about the militarization of white police than you are about the fact that those same police gunned down a black teenager for no apparent reason other than he happened to be walking down a public street while black, just like any of a hundred other black teenagers gunned down by those in authority, it’s about race.

When you suggest with a knowingly raised eyebrow that a black teenager ought to be smart enough to immediately submit to police authority without any trace of resentment or risk summary execution, but you think a bunch of white ranchers are patriots for defying the government and pointing assault rifles at federal agents, it’s about race.

When those things, all of those things, are what determines in the court of public opinion whether or not the dead kid deserved what he got or whether he was a victim, well, folks, then it’s about race.

When a white cop shoots dead an unarmed black teenager, it’s about race.

In America, it’s always about race.

Fuck the "both sides" game.

And fuck reading links!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

Well, hey, if they're *deliberatly* evoking the handjob motion... That's at least successful rhetorical usage.
posted by Artw at 8:06 PM on August 15, 2014

dhartung: "as it didn't make sense for a kid with no criminal record, going to college, etc. reacting with violence to a jaywalking summons."

No? You're a young black male in the United States of America in the year 2014.

A country with a very racist past, a country that enslaved black people, "Liberated" them to be lynched by men in white hoods, later to be blown up in churches, to have dogs sicked upon them and hoses blasted at them, to be incarcerated at a disproportionate rate, murdered readily by police...

A country where the smallest blemish on your record as a black man can be used against you, socially, to indict you in media for merely being black...

A country that walks in fear of you just for being you, a kid with no criminal record, going on to college, but also, black... "I'm on my last few days here before schooling. Doing good, no blemish on my record, no stain to taint me, I have a path here before me that has hope of leading me away from the system that's taken so many..."

Jaywalking. The police want to bust this kid for jaywalking. Right as he's about to go to school. Shit. Shit, you think to yourself. I don't need this trouble now, this is the absolute last thing I need.

You're young, your mind races, you're still forming your brain, panic sets in, you don't know what's going to happen, you've never been in trouble before, shit shit shit... I have to get the hell outta here.

So you do something rash, something stupid, because you're afraid. Afraid, just like all the white people who fear you. Afraid of a man with a badge and a gun, but not just the man and the badge and the gun, that would be easy. Just comply, play nice, get a ticket, it's over.

It's not the instant possibility of immanent harm you're afraid of, you fear all else that's entailed with being in trouble with the law, most especially if you're black, and what that might play on your record long term... Forced to go to see a judge, a court, jail, community service, something, somewhere, somehow, you're gonna be held back from your dreams, just a few steps before you get to make that journey. Limit your job opportunities, keep you stuck where you've worked so hard to not be stuck, you see the big picture.

You see the social ramifications of being a young black man in the United States of America in the year 2014.
posted by symbioid at 8:28 PM on August 15, 2014 [22 favorites]

I bet the cops back at the station shit purple Twinkies when they found out he didn't have a record.
posted by rhizome at 8:32 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Don't give them any Twinkie Defense ideas, rhizome!
posted by symbioid at 8:40 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Very well put, symbioid.
posted by uosuaq at 8:41 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

"I, for one, was wondering about this from the beginning, as it didn't make sense for a kid with no criminal record, going to college, etc. reacting with violence to a jaywalking summons."

So I have lived in my city for ten years now, and in that time there have been THREE major civic dust-ups about black teenagers jaywalking, including a major police JAYWALKING STING that involved days and days of arresting every damn person who jaywalked (but mostly staking out the majority-black high schools) and issuing them ALL mandatory court appearance tickets. (They were eventually dismissed after the kids were all forced to go to anti-jaywalking assemblies.) The SECOND time there was a jaywalking sting the chief of police threw out all the tickets his officers issued, and then the prosecutor threatened the chief of police for selective enforcement and it turned into a shouting match at city council and it was nuts.

Jaywalking is an actual problem here -- our car/pedestrian accident is way too high for a city of our size, and people can be shockingly casual about dashing out in front of cars. It is worse in the historically black neighborhoods ... because they don't have adequate storm drainage and frequently don't have fuckin' sidewalks, so the sides of the road are messy, muddy, and treacherous to walk on, because they didn't historically receive adequate infrastructure funds. So, yeah, kids walk down the middle of the street. And sometimes when a car comes, being teenagers, they refuse to move. And sometimes, being teenagers (and in the case of black teenagers, having legitimate gripes with some of the local police officers) police tell them to stop jaywalking and they don't.

But jaywalking is also a really, really serious problem near the mostly-white urban college campus (where they have excellent sidewalks), and somehow that's never where the jaywalking stings end up. I've had far more "close calls" in the college neighborhood after dark than the historically black neighborhoods after dark. It is legitimately terrifying as a driver and I understand why it upsets people.

But. It's also an incredibly racialized police enforcement issue at this point, and largely used to harass people for walking while black. It's also become a "dogwhistle" discussion point, where when people start to complain about "disrespectful kids jaywalking," it's a pretty good signal shit's about to get racist. I'm about 2.5 hours from St. Louis; the situation is the same in lots of cities around here (although I don't know how many have had actual jaywalking sting operations, that was insane), and I would expect many towns around St. Louis to have similar disparities in jaywalking enforcement, and for complaints about jaywalking to frequently serve a similar dogwhistle function.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:46 PM on August 15, 2014 [29 favorites]

“Black People Are Not Ignoring 'Black On Black' Crime,” Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic, 15 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 8:48 PM on August 15, 2014 [9 favorites]

“Black People Are Not Ignoring 'Black On Black' Crime,” Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic, 15 August 2014

I feel like someone flashed the Batman sign and it worked.
posted by sallybrown at 8:51 PM on August 15, 2014 [14 favorites]

I - a white woman - used to jaywalk ALL THE TIME in St. Louis. No police ever stopped me, and certainly no police ever shot at me.
posted by ChuraChura at 8:51 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm not sure jaywalking is a problem anyway. Cars having priority over people seems like more of a problem to me. But I derail.
posted by uosuaq at 8:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

“Black People Are Not Ignoring 'Black On Black' Crime,” Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic, 15 August 2014

indeed - we had a protest march over kids shooting each other in a neighborhood a mile from where i live, one fully endorsed and supported by the police

this is not being ignored
posted by pyramid termite at 9:12 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

I can't help suspect that whenever white pundits talk about how blacks are ignoring black on black crime, what they really mean is "we insist black people stop paying attention to white on black crime."
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:22 PM on August 15, 2014 [15 favorites]

ob1quixote: "“Black People Are Not Ignoring 'Black On Black' Crime,” Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic, 15 August 2014"

"The politics of respectability are, at their root, the politics of changing the subject..."

*applauds*
posted by brundlefly at 9:38 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

I miss the blink tag because I'd really hate for the following disclaimer to be overlooked, but here goes:

I was extremely upset with every moment that passed before this got posted, and finally emailed the mods asking for thoughts about posting this myself. I was very politely discouraged from doing so, mostly because I was emotional, but also because I was local. Fortunately, Artw posted it within the hour.

I'm no less outraged by the police response and the media spin than I have been this whole sleepless week, and I'm not suddenly changing my mind about anything or buying into any new spin.

I'll connect dots like a true conspiracy theorist here, but it does not mean I subscribe to this theory, or that it's even well-formed - I'm just stringing some idle thoughts together and wondering if there's any sense to be made of them. I'd love some sense.

Also, I've only skimmed the thread since lunch, so I may have missed some things which discredit or reinforce what I say, but I wanted to get this out while I had the time.

Okay. So it turns out my worst fear was realized and I actually do recognize the shooter. As I said, all kinds of people came into the restaurant I worked at in Ferguson for over a decade. I know a lot of faces. I recognized the mayor, but didn't even realize he was the mayor until I saw him on TV this week. Maybe he wasn't two years ago when the place closed, but in any case, he was just another guy who came in with family/friends and got along with others. Everyone got along there. It was magical. I digress.

Anyway, all week I've been afraid to find out who it was. Would it be someone I knew and liked? Someone I couldn't stand?

There were cops who just got food to-go when they were working, and then there were cops who came up whether they were on or off duty. This one was one I'd seen out of uniform. He was a nice enough guy, tipped appropriately, etc. I'm a white male; I don't know if he had any secret notions. I didn't know him, but I do know he had no trouble hanging out and relaxing in the neighborhood he worked in. Not all cops did. So I can't help it that suddenly he seems less monstrous to me. I do realize the logical fallacy there.

The other thing that's bugged me ever since I read it was Michael's supposed last Facebook message. What the hell did it mean? Has anyone seen his other posts?

So here's the loopy idea: What if he was trying to get killed? Now that the most important witness isn't so credible, what if this is some truly upside-down shit where he really was fighting for the gun, and maybe he wasn't shot while fleeing, but fighting for it all the way down the street? Do we actually know he was shot in the back?

Did they not want to interview Dorian because he was a suspect in another crime and it would complicate matters? What if they haven't yet brought any charges because they're afraid to do it wrong? Again, no excuse for the terror the combined departmental forces wrought, but in this hypothetical world where a young man wanted to die, maybe the cops felt like they needed to unite behind their involuntary fall guy because they were privy to some inside info the rest of us weren't, and it somehow made them feel... righteous? Maybe his identity didn't leak because the people who'd seen the bystander videos actually sided with him, and weren't involved in some massive corrupt cover-up? They didn't have to release his name because charges weren't brought, and maybe they didn't because they genuinely were afraid for him? Dognose the police were already afraid - they certainly showed it with their gear and weapons.

Follow-up disclaimer: These are only questions, having nothing to do with any Swisher-swindling and subsequent comeuppance.
I think the whole thing was an absolute horror show and that today's press release was definitely a calculated manoeuvre. I'm not buying it just because it's on sale.
Systemic and institutional racism is a blight on our society.
The police are too powerful and have forgotten their employers.
The people of Ferguson deserve much better.
There's no excuse for McCulloch's comments, and he needs to step the fuck down.

Almost nothing could ever excuse shooting an unarmed person. Again. And again and again.
I don't know how it could ever be justified... except... maybe by some outlandish death wish.

This is only going to get messier from here. The forensics report is going to be huge.
posted by hypersloth at 9:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

More like "White Pundits Ignore That Black People Are Not Ignoring 'Black On Black' Crime, Quite Conveniently, For Some Odd Reason."
posted by symbioid at 9:43 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

sallybrown: “Ta-Nehisi Coates

I feel like someone flashed the Batman sign and it worked.”

He tweeted a bunch yesterday saying he was sorry he was incommunicado in France for his apparently annual sabbatique en français, and he'd try and catch up with current events and comment as soon as he could.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:45 PM on August 15, 2014

Well, it could mean that maybe he was dealing with a lot of Selfish People on various social networks, or in real life. Vaguebooking is a thing.

Maybe he was trying to say "I want to leave a legacy, and that legacy is that I don't want to be selfish, that I want to care about others more than me, my goal is that if I die, it's to be known as one who cared more about others than I did myself"

Perhaps as a retaliatory comeback to someone who was being vindictive and mean online or offline. Perhaps because he just wanted to set an example for others, maybe he thought it was a sort of inspiring thing. Maybe he goes to church and heard something like that on a sermon, maybe he was listening to some other inspiring person give a message of hope and how to live life (live your life to it's fullest, as if each day were your last) and to him, that meant to be giving and patient and kind

That's what I read into it, nothing more. It might even be less. I wouldn't read anything too deep or complicated than what's there on the surface. Coincidences happen.
posted by symbioid at 9:50 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

hypersloth, it is not unusual for people who do horrible things to be nice or even loved in other areas of their life. Abusive parents and spouses are often very charismatic to outsiders, for example. Or people hide their secret selves but under stress, that person emerges. You can't know who people really are from a casual encounter.

It's ok if you liked a random person that you didn't know was capable of murder, and now it looks like they were. It doesn't make you complicit (if that's what you are worried about). You aren't responsible for knowing anyone's secret heart.

Absent any other information, we have no real indication Brown was suicidal, or likely to try suicide-by-cop if he was. Teenagers post morbid/sentimental/death-obsessed things every day online; it doesn't necessarily mean they are all suicidal.

It's a fraught situation. Take care of yourself.
posted by emjaybee at 10:05 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

I don't trust the daily mail. Is there a more reputable source for Mike's FB comment? Or is this a well known fact that I wasn't aware of?
posted by futz at 10:07 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

That's not one of Ta-Nehisi Coates' better efforts. He usually provides a more lengthy, thoughtful take on these kinds of issues. I recognize that he's just getting up to speed, but the issue of perceptions of indifference to black-on-black crime deserved a better treatment. Some of his other pieces (on trickier issues, but longer, more thoughtful) have been able to persuade buddies of mine. This one, because it's so short and snide, is met with an eyeroll.
posted by learnsome at 10:12 PM on August 15, 2014

I don't trust the daily mail. Is there a more reputable source for Mike's FB comment? Or is this a well known fact that I wasn't aware of?
posted by futz at 10:07 PM on August 15 [+] [!]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/justice/michael-brown-missouri-teen-shot/
posted by learnsome at 10:13 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

yeah sorry about the daily mail link - it was the first result when I didn't immediately find it in this thread. I'm sure I read it here somewhere...
posted by hypersloth at 10:19 PM on August 15, 2014

hypersloth,

Thanks for providing your firsthand perceptions of the officer. While they do not absolve, in any way, the officer's conduct, it's nice for us to hear as many relevant pieces of information, as possible (note: your perception is not legally relevant, except in certain limited situations; I mean relevant in a more general sense).

That said, in the criminal justice world, there's a concept known as guilty knowledge or consciousness of crime. This is when folks act guilty. I think Ferguson's actions post the altercation meet the bill.*

But even though I strongly feel that way, I must note that this thread does the usual MeFi thing for items in this context: it jumps to the left-wing side and sneers at the motives on the "other side". So, your contribution is a nice tonic.

*Unlike others, I would still like to wait for all of the evidence to come in, before making a real judgment about Wilson's actual guilt. My point about Ferguson's consciousness of guilt is that it is one piece of evidence that we have so far and it's pretty damning.
posted by learnsome at 10:21 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

@ToluseO: Stand off in #Ferguson. Police saying disperse. Protesters standing pat with hands up. About a football field apart.
posted by Artw at 10:56 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Twitter reporting shots and tear gas right now.
posted by emjaybee at 10:58 PM on August 15, 2014

symbioid: "Well, it could mean that maybe he was dealing with a lot of Selfish People on various social networks, or in real life. Vaguebooking is a thing. "

Agreed. I see stuff like this from my 19 year old niece and the teenage kids of my friends all the time. Rather stark statements, without any particular context and apropos of nothing, as a reaction to stuff they see in the world, interactions with friends and strangers...it's the way they are processing the fits and starts of their maturing perspective against contradictions.
posted by desuetude at 10:59 PM on August 15, 2014 [5 favorites]

emjaybee: "Twitter reporting shots and tear gas right now."

Shit. One hours ago it sounded like everything was okay and demonstrations were peaceful with self-policing going on within the crowd.
posted by desuetude at 11:04 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Seems like we're right back to two nights ago. Did they switch up police again?
posted by Artw at 11:04 PM on August 15, 2014

Oh Jesus, again?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 PM on August 15, 2014

Antonio French's tweets are fucking amazing, it's an eerie window into how tenuous the situation is.
posted by desuetude at 11:06 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Hypersloth - is it possible that your pleasant memories are of the other Darren Wilson?
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:08 PM on August 15, 2014

livestream
posted by triggerfinger at 11:09 PM on August 15, 2014

If this is the county police again then heads should fucking roll.
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on August 15, 2014

The gist from Twitter seems to be that a small group, 10 or so, started agitating, throwing bottles at businesses and getting rowdy. Police got ready and in position. Leadershippy types among protesters trying to keep the crowd from losing their shit. Touch and go with tensions mounting. Sounded like cooler heads were prevailing on both sides, but then there were reports of flash bombs.
posted by desuetude at 11:11 PM on August 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Police ordering people to disperse. Journos trying to film crowd forced to fall back into crowd.
posted by desuetude at 11:13 PM on August 15, 2014

Warning given multiple times by police. Protesters blocking the street and holding their ground but have turned their backs on the police and linked arms. I'm getting this from the livestream linked by triggerfinger.
posted by desuetude at 11:15 PM on August 15, 2014

I hate-read the right-wing sites occasionally, to see what they have to say about events and to get a feeling for the state of American discourse, as you do. To my relieved surprise tonight I see an article about the shooting where I agree with nearly every word. The Libertarians and other Tea Partiers might not have come out in defence of Michael Brown, but Red State is on it:

[The store video] is being presented by people who have a vested emotional interest in exonerating the police in this incident as evidence that Michael Brown was a “thug” and that therefore the officer who shot him was justified in doing so. This is absurdity of the highest order, and is no more compelling than the picture that has floated around the Internet over the last several days showing Brown holding money in his mouth and a gun in his hand while a buddy nearby is smoking what appears to be weed. Apparently the theory for some people is that that if you ever do dumb stuff as a teenager like smoke pot, shoplift, or pose for dumb pictures with your buddies, it is okay for the police to shoot you to death in the street. [...] Lifting a pack of cigars that costs less than $5 does not constitute a capital offense in America and hasn’t in civilized society for several hundred years.

posted by jokeefe at 11:16 PM on August 15, 2014 [28 favorites]

Some protesters pushing to move forward. Organizers of protest trying to mediate within crowd and convince people to not push.
posted by desuetude at 11:17 PM on August 15, 2014

Looting reported. Spinning out of control.
posted by desuetude at 11:19 PM on August 15, 2014

You've just made the case for a perfect authoritarian state.

Oh, gee, now I'm a fascist because I happen to agree with these black parents. I am finding good faith in particularly short supply these days. I'm not in the fucking "thugs deserve what they get LOL" camp and you know what, I'm not in the "this was a straight-up racist execution" camp either. I am talking about how this thing happened and if Mike Brown was the perfect, good black kid that nobody should expect him to be (life is messy, rights are absolute), he might have made the rational choice to, well, put his hands in the air. Consonant with that rational choice, which he is reported to have made, you would not expect him to make like some sort of anarchist martyr and attack the cop without provocation. That is why that never made sense to me.

If, however, he was moments ago involved in an actual robbery where he had a confrontation with the owner of the goods he was boosting, he might make the rational decision that it was either this or jail. (Given what I see in the video it's not clear there's a lot of rationality, though, more like confusion and impulsiveness, the reason for which might be worth a tangent but isn't likely to solve anything.) This is the way I am trying to make sense of what otherwise seems like a bizarre, out of nowhere decision on the part of at least one, and probably both, parties to transform a minor encounter into a deadly transaction.

You see the social ramifications of being a young black man in the United States of America in the year 2014.

*clap clap* Yes, you condescendingly rant with the best of them, symbioid, but to take rhizome's approach for a moment, it almost seems to me as if you are justifying Mike Brown taking the Angry Black (Young) Man approach and attacking the officer on no real provocation whatsoever. I don't believe that and it's certainly the ... opposite ... approach that most have taken today in trying to question whether he could have been involved in a robbery at all.

Yes, I understand that when you are given limited choices and even more limited hope that your interactions with the justice system, or society generally, will allow you to succeed that the Mario Savio tack begins to seem viable. That's why I do not condemn the demonstrations even if they went a little too far under some unwarranted pressure tactics. People need to express that anger and they don't need the moral tut-tut condescension of being told to only do it the right way, every time, or they will continue to be ignored.

But I don't think Mike Brown made the choice that day as you describe it.

I'm not sure jaywalking is a problem anyway.

Unfortunately I can report that it can be a problem -- during our crime wave a few years ago, there were a lot of young men (primarily black, some Hispanic and Asian, mixed with local white kids) engaging in very obvious territorial mind games to establish turf and scare the bejesus out of people who'd lived here 20, 30, even 50 years. We had members of the Women's Club trapped in their cars as groups of kids surrounded them and made racial taunts. We had a member of the City Council surrounded with his pickup truck being pounded on. I had to call police on a group of teens who simply refused to move from the street, blocking me, and another time I had a gangbanger leap in front of my car, playing chicken. This may not always be a criminal problem, but it was certainly a communication problem and probably a cultural problem as well. In the Canfield Drive community, I can imagine it wasn't that big a problem, but in my attempts to understand the behavior I've seen reasons centered on safety, e.g. from drive-by shootings. Or maybe they really were just walking in the road because of habit. Certainly it isn't something I'd consider worthy of a violent confrontation with an officer, which is why I struggled to understand his actions in this case, having allegedly no knowledge of the robbery of which Brown has been posthumously accused.
posted by dhartung at 11:19 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

More looting going on now.
posted by triggerfinger at 11:19 PM on August 15, 2014

@WesleyLowery

Cops nowhere near. Crowd policing ITSELF. Community leaders and NIO/Panthers PREVENTING LOOTING
posted by triggerfinger at 11:22 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Looters were threatening news crews, chased off Al Jazeera crew and other press, demanded they keep back "if you know what's good for you."
posted by desuetude at 11:23 PM on August 15, 2014

Other protesters are PISSED about the escalation.
posted by desuetude at 11:25 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

triggerfinger: “More looting going on now.”

Members of the crowd shut down the looting https://t.co/xdkhl7xA1i— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 16, 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 11:25 PM on August 15, 2014

I haven't seen this posted, but -- here I am in good faith -- even though I largely do accept the claims that Brown boosted the cigarillos, it doesn't mean I accept everything said by the Ferguson or St. Louis County P.D. -- so here is a storify of Fifty Questions about the Mike Brown Report. They are good, reasonable questions that in many cases do not have obvious answers, and those lacunae are largely the fault of the aforementioned agencies.
posted by dhartung at 11:26 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

If you click on the livestream, ignore the chat comments, it's all swastikas and racist filth.

Three stores reported smashed. Cries of "they're coming" meaning the police, but no sign of them yet at the site of the looting. Can hear arguments between looters and other protesters.
posted by desuetude at 11:28 PM on August 15, 2014

@WesleyLowery

"Ain't nobody going in this motherfucker, bro" - resident guarding beauty store [pic]
posted by triggerfinger at 11:29 PM on August 15, 2014 [6 favorites]

Wow, those comments on the livestream. Who has time to do shit like that?

Oh, wait, racism is fixed. I must be misreading the meaning behind those comments.
posted by ChrisR at 11:32 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Watching it on CNN. The cops (Ferguson PD I guess) have toned down some of the body armor but they're pushing toward the crowd with armored cars and MRAPs in line-abreast like a war movie.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:36 PM on August 15, 2014

@WesleyLowery: Attempt to loot store that Michael Brown allegedly stole from stopped by community members

@WesleyLowery: Hundreds in the streets. Only a few dozen attempting to loot. Dozens more physically trying to prevent
posted by Artw at 11:39 PM on August 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

@Yamiche: Just watched @AntonioFrench stand down a group of 15 people who wanted to loot a liquor store. "We are better than this," he said
posted by Artw at 11:42 PM on August 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Sounds like it's quieting down for now.

But this livestream is now raising my eyebrow with some revisionism. He's asserting now that things didn't escalate into looting until police arrived, which is...totally contrary to what he was reporting in the moment?
posted by desuetude at 11:45 PM on August 15, 2014

Livestream guy (Tim Pool) is from Vice
posted by triggerfinger at 11:47 PM on August 15, 2014

The livestream seemed to show definite looting of a liquor store, said two other stores were hit - Sally's Beauty Supply and one other - I missed it. Police were nowhere to be found, except in the air.

Lots of people out on foot and in cars. It's 99% awesome, but... Goddammit.

Now the squad is advancing very slowly, issuing warnings.

Our live host said lots of people were apparently trying to stop the looting, and an hour ago it was a party, and then the police that were out there with them left.

Why are the police now all in an advancing line, rather than just being out and about?

if you go fullscreen, you don't have to see swastika spam
posted by hypersloth at 11:48 PM on August 15, 2014

My impression from the combination of tweets from various sources and this livestream is that there was looting at the site of the store that Michael Brown allegedly robbed and a couple of nearby businesses, but looting was eventually shut down by other protesters, prevented more businesses from being damaged, and other end of protest sites saw no looting at all.
posted by desuetude at 11:49 PM on August 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Haha, on the stream one of the guys protecting the liquor store just handed his phone to a British sounding reporter to assure his Mom he was behaving.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:49 PM on August 15, 2014 [37 favorites]

Hah. Wonderful moment during the livestream where one of the guys protecting the store hands the phone to a journo and says "this is my mom on the phone, talk to her and tell her I'm doing good here" (or something to that effect.)
posted by tonycpsu at 11:50 PM on August 15, 2014 [13 favorites]

TV reporter says to guy's mom - "don't worry, I'm a TV reporter. Your son is being very responsible"
posted by triggerfinger at 11:52 PM on August 15, 2014 [33 favorites]

Allegations that Ferguson police altered police reports, committed perjury, assaulted an innocent black man and then charged him, and had a policy of officers writing up their own use of force complaints. That the cop who shot Brown has no disciplinary record may be because he chose not to create one.
posted by klangklangston at 11:55 PM on August 15, 2014 [4 favorites]

hypersloth: "if you go fullscreen, you don't have to see swastika spam"

Sweet, thank you!!

Lots of frustration from protesters about looting. Also about situation in general, obviously. Sounds like lots of people eager to talk passionately yet thoughtfully. Lots of concern about how looting will be reported and that if police retaliation happens it would be indiscriminate and not recognize efforts at self-policing.
posted by desuetude at 11:55 PM on August 15, 2014

"Why do we have to protect and serve when they're right there?"
posted by Artw at 12:02 AM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Apologies if this has already been posted, but this might be from the same Michael Brown. Am listening it to now.

https://soundcloud.com/bigmike-jr-brown
posted by learnsome at 12:11 AM on August 16, 2014

I'm not generally a fan of Vice, but they are getting some fantastic commentary right now on the livestream from the protesters. That these same people aren't being given a platform in the MSM is a fucking tragedy and a loss for all of us.
posted by triggerfinger at 12:13 AM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Some serious questions about Ferguson PD should be asked after them coming back in and immediately kicking this off. They shouldn't be left in charge of so much as a pencil sharpener ever again.
posted by Artw at 12:14 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I want to hang the fuck out with the guy with the goggles!
posted by hypersloth at 12:16 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah that was a first class rant. Spot on. Greg I think but didn't catch his last name.
posted by maniabug at 12:18 AM on August 16, 2014

It was either @theblackmurse or @minossec
posted by triggerfinger at 12:23 AM on August 16, 2014

don't wanna put it here, but you can rewind (or check your messages)
posted by hypersloth at 12:23 AM on August 16, 2014

oh, nevermind he said it there. Triggerfinger has it: minossec
posted by hypersloth at 12:26 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Unfortunately I can report that [jaywalking] can be a problem -- during our crime wave a few years ago, there were a lot of young men (primarily black, some Hispanic and Asian, mixed with local white kids) engaging in very obvious territorial mind games to establish turf and scare the bejesus out of people who'd lived here 20, 30, even 50 years. We had members of the Women's Club trapped in their cars as groups of kids surrounded them and made racial taunts. We had a member of the City Council surrounded with his pickup truck being pounded on.

What you're describing there is not jaywalking, though. It may be happening in the street, but not all crimes that take place in the street are jaywalking. That sounds like disorderly conduct, and possibly assault.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:19 AM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

he might have made the rational choice to, well, put his hands in the air. Consonant with that rational choice, which he is reported to have made, you would not expect him to make like some sort of anarchist martyr and attack the cop without provocation. That is why that never made sense to me.

Here's a thought: the cop is full of shit and he wasn't attacked by Brown. I also have yet to see any evidence at all of a robbery.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:41 AM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

CNN this morning: "SWAT team battles looters after U.S. police kill teen"

Damn it! "How about SWAT team shows muscle from a distance while local teens secure city from looters"?

And how about "Blogger with iPhone camera provides live coverage and in-depth interviews"?

Our police and media are so fired.
posted by maniabug at 5:34 AM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

in soviet america, police and media fire YOU

(i wish this was a joke)
posted by pyramid termite at 5:41 AM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

Did police and looters ever actually come into contact?
posted by Artw at 6:25 AM on August 16, 2014

Did police and looters ever actually come into contact?

No. It was too dangerous for the police to get involved.
posted by ryoshu at 6:38 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

It sounds like the big contribution of the police was to fire teargas into the crowd and then fuck off.
posted by Artw at 6:44 AM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yep, that sounds like them.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2014

Wait, did the highway police stand down and the county and local police were back, and that started the problems?
posted by dejah420 at 7:20 AM on August 16, 2014

Michael Calhoun from KMOX reported that a swat team surrounded a store and store has a picture of an arrest being made. This was at different location than Ferguson and Florissant area where most of the reporters were. ("Next to Dominos" doesn't mean anything to me.) I'm not sure which police force was involved.
posted by nangar at 7:35 AM on August 16, 2014

#lastwords
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:45 AM on August 16, 2014

Comment removed, let's maybe just skip the "imagine if you will a black guy assaulting a white guy" gedankenexperiments in here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:47 AM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

A mother's white privilege: "at these sudden, raw moments, in these riots and demonstrations and travesties of justice, White America is forced to gaze upon the emotional roil of oppression, the anger and fear and deep grief endemic to the Black American experience. Black America holds up a mirror for us."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:50 AM on August 16, 2014

It's worth reading Antonio French's feed For an account of the entire night.
posted by Artw at 7:53 AM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

But I had the perfect imaginary example involving an Irish guy, an Israeli rabbi and an Italian in a bar in Svalbard that was persuade everyone of their total wrongness relative to my position.
posted by humanfont at 7:56 AM on August 16, 2014

Seems like the supposedly liberal Post Dispatch (well, all my conservative relatives call it a liberal rag) is mostly talking about the looting this morning. Mention of everyone blocking the looting is sparse. Fucking disgrace.
posted by notsnot at 8:09 AM on August 16, 2014

The Front Lines of Ferguson
"At that moment, I didn’t feel like a journalist. There was nothing about this event that I felt the need to chronicle. There was no time to find out what the bombs actually were and what was actually coming out of the guns and what type of gas was coming out of the canisters. In this moment, there was nothing I felt the need to broadcast to the world. I didn’t even have the desire to communicate my safety or lack thereof.

I was just a black man in Ferguson."
posted by madamjujujive at 8:13 AM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

I am willing to bet even money that the looters were not locals, but outsiders who saw an opportunity. Possibly even planted agitators.
posted by dejah420 at 8:15 AM on August 16, 2014 [11 favorites]

dejah420, that is the impression I get from following twitter. Lots of out of state license plates.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:17 AM on August 16, 2014

LA Times reporter Matt Pearce's feed is also worth checking to get another view from the ground of what went down last night: @mattdpearce
posted by madamjujujive at 8:21 AM on August 16, 2014

Antonio French has a couple comments about the police not intervening in the looting:

I want to be clear: Police not coming in at this point -- even with the looting -- was a good thing. It would've gotten very violent.

It became so clear the awfulness of the situation. Communities need police. But here & now, the slightest police presence enrages people.

posted by nangar at 8:36 AM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

Good cop, bad cop. Day cop walks with the people giving hugs, night cop is standoffish and shoots teargas.

What if there were individual police who walked around the streets at night, too?
posted by rhizome at 8:38 AM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

The Front Lines of Ferguson

Oh my God, this piece made me cry.
posted by limeonaire at 8:38 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

What they're doing right now is foreplay, to preload public opinion. In a very vague sense, it's jury tampering. I mean other than what i said above about it destroying public discourse, it's also intended to ease off the cop in the trial a lot.

This this this this this. On the (who knows how remote) chance that this does actually go to trial, they have now successfully painted Mike Brown as a thug and the people of Ferguson as animals. Additionally, any trial is now almost certainly going to be moved outside St. Louis County, thus increasing the likelihood of an all-white (or at least nearly all-white jury).

Jim Crow lives.
posted by scody at 8:45 AM on August 16, 2014 [16 favorites]

Greg Thomas' (@minossec) rant on YouTube. (There's a copy on Google docs but I couldn't get it to load.)
posted by zix at 9:11 AM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

I feel it's condescending of me to take this position, but I wonder what the police would do if everybody just went home, if the people didn't give the cops what they want. Just to take the position of not being anywhere the police are, to banish the police from their lives. The cops can't really be trusted to do the right thing, which is systemic and traditional, so why even engage those who do not want to change? It might increase the chances of keeping any resulting trial in-county, and preserve the ability of local people to survive jury selection.
posted by rhizome at 9:11 AM on August 16, 2014

zix, thanks for posting. I am very, very glad we are having these conversations now. It's a crying shame that another young man had to die for it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:13 AM on August 16, 2014

I get what you're saying, rhizome, but...as many protesters have pointed out, they are home. This is their neighborhood. And the cops are the ones who have been making incursions into people's back yards. In Ferguson, going home is no guarantee that the police will leave you alone—ask Mike Brown's parents. He was going home when he was shot.
posted by limeonaire at 9:17 AM on August 16, 2014 [17 favorites]

Sounds like there were at least some outside instigators. From @wesleylowery:
There are literally two while makes, with covered faces, threatening reporters

Looter just threatened to pull knife on leduff and I outside of Sam's Market by friend of punk white kid
posted by desjardins at 9:22 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

So apparently Ferguson PD released the dirtying video against the advice of the DOJ. I'd bet they fired that random volley of teargas too.

Right now they need this chaos, and they are doing everything they can to get it.

I'll bet the America media and public will lap it up too.
posted by Artw at 9:28 AM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

Agent provocateurs, bet money on it. White guys in masks in ferguson? Yeah, that's not local outrage, that's outside instigation.
posted by dejah420 at 9:29 AM on August 16, 2014 [11 favorites]

"Apologies if this has already been posted, but this might be from the same Michael Brown. Am listening it to now. "

Well, he makes me feel better about my flow, certainly. Good choice in beats though.
posted by klangklangston at 9:31 AM on August 16, 2014

dejah420: "Agent provocateurs, bet money on it. White guys in masks in ferguson? Yeah, that's not local outrage, that's outside instigation."

Agent provocateurs? As in they're pretending to be radicals in order to discredit the other protesters? Because I have zero problem believing that obnoxious little "anarchists" would flock to Ferguson to play at smashing ~~the state~~ windows.
posted by brundlefly at 9:47 AM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

dejah420: "Agent provocateurs, bet money on it. White guys in masks in ferguson? Yeah, that's not local outrage, that's outside instigation."

Agent provocateurs? As in they're pretending to be radicals in order to discredit the other protesters? Because I have zero problem believing that obnoxious little "anarchists" would flock to Ferguson to play at smashing the state windows.

Here's what I can tell you from my experience with guys like this at WTO in Seattle in 99 - they were all very phyiscally fit, had short tight haircuts, wore brand new looking generic black hoodies and pants, black tactical shoes - (which seemed like an odd choice for anarchist types - I grew up in Olympia WA - I know the type)

At the WTO protest, these were the black clad assholes that had wrist rocket slingshots and were taking out windows with big steel ball bearings - I saw one dump something in a trash can, and fished it out. It was an (also brand new) crossman/saunders/barnett style wrist rocket, and a brand new (still had creases from where it had been folded) cheapie black nylon fanny pack filled with also shiny new steel ball bearings about the size of a shooter marble.

Not the kind of haphazard mayhem making equipment I'd expect from some real Portland anarchist black bloc crust punk type.

Everything about these guys was precise, well organized, disciplined, generic, and disposable. They moved like guys with military/LEO training.
posted by stenseng at 9:59 AM on August 16, 2014 [37 favorites]

Anarchists not wanting to be filmed while doing something stupid and I'll advised sounds off.
posted by Artw at 10:07 AM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

brundlefly: "Agent provocateurs? As in they're pretending to be radicals in order to discredit the other protesters?"

Been shown to happen: Police accused of using provocateurs at summit
video: Police Provocateurs stopped by union leader at anti SPP protest
Undercover provocateurs unmasked
posted by Lexica at 10:12 AM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

Rand Paul's praise call for small government is sounding stupider and stupider here.
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

I want that reporter to be talking about the United States like our reporters talk about Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever country that's being bombed. I want them to talk about how shitty the situation is, and it will take years and a brand new structure within the system of power to change the situation.

Russia Today approaches what you're suggesting. It's a terrible news source, but a fascinating exercise in broadcast news bias.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Former St. Louis politician Jeff Smith's piece on the three things you need to understand to understand Ferguson is good. I'm so glad it mentioned Kinloch Airfield, because that name didn't make it into an upcoming story in my publication about the airport, even though I pushed for it. Kinloch—that's a name that arouses some feelings in people around here, and no one wants to talk about it. It brings to mind the desegregation program, and busing, and the migration of those people out of failing school districts. Everyone seems to want to forget it exists, along with places like Wellston—where my great-grandfather once drove a bus route.

The piece also made me think about something else I haven't really seen mentioned in the media coverage of Ferguson, re: factors that made it what it is: Interstate 170 itself. As Smith notes, in the wake of Shelley v. Kraemer, which struck down racial covenants on real estate, blacks began to move out of north St. Louis to inner-ring suburbs like Ferguson. But not long after that, airport expansion and Interstate 170 construction both started to hem in where people could live again, cutting a swath straight through nearby neighborhoods up through the '80s and '90s. I use I-170 all the time, but I could see its construction having been a factor in all of this, as yet again, people found a potentially good place to live, only to be confined by construction for the convenience of people who don't live there. Note that construction on I-170 halted at Interstate 64 because of public outcry in South County—they didn't want it disrupting their neighborhoods the way it had the ones farther north.

Bizarrely enough, St. Louis County is claiming that continued construction on I-170 (for which it's asking $195 million) will be, as Alex Ihnen reports here, "a critical element to revitalizing the inner-ring suburbs." As Ihnen wryly notes, "Somehow the building on I-170 didn't contribute to the revitalizing of inner ring communities it traverses, such as [Kinloch], St. John, [Vinita] Park, and Charlack." Again, as someone who has driven I-170 on a weekly basis for the past year, I think it could definitely use some updates, especially at Page Avenue, where the southbound on-ramp is just dangerous as hell. But do I think these updates will magically revitalize anything other than our tires? No freakin' way. I love how local government uses "revitalization of inner-ring suburbs" as a tool to get what it wants—but doesn't actually do much to help improve the health and well-being of the people who live in those suburbs.
posted by limeonaire at 10:19 AM on August 16, 2014 [11 favorites]

stenseng, I don't at all doubt that that goes on, and I wouldn't be shocked to find out it's going on here. However, I'm also reminded of all the talk of "respect for a diversity of tactics" during Occupy Oakland. So, lacking further information, agent provocateurs feels like a big jump for me.

Oh, don't get me wrong - there are (and were at WTO) lots of legit jackass anarchist types tipping garbage cans, setting dumpsters on fire, etc., but they were poorly organized, used opportunistic items to cause damage, and didn't move in a coordinated "tactical" manner.

They also generally are younger - maybe 17-23 or 24, and don't have the cash to buy a bunch of brand new clothing and accessories to dump after doing the deed, and I don't think I've *ever*seen an anarchist type kid wearing brand new 2-300 dollar tactical boots. Not to mention that these guys were in their mid 20s to mid 30s, and looked like they hit the gym at least 4-5 days a week.

I think cops know when tensions are high, all it takes is a few well placed matches to start a fire that they can then sweep in and "put out."
posted by stenseng at 10:23 AM on August 16, 2014 [19 favorites]

Totally. And, to be clear, I don't think that it's a big jump to think that there are agent provocateurs at work in Ferguson generally. But we're going off of a couple of vague tweets about "white guys with covered faces" here, and that doesn't seem like enough information to draw any conclusions, given that there are other possibilities.
posted by brundlefly at 10:33 AM on August 16, 2014

that doesn't seem like enough information to draw any conclusions, given that there are other possibilities.

I'm curious, what other possibilities do you think there are? Because it seems pretty clear to me that these gross little white punks were there specifically to fuck shit up. Whether they're just sociopathic assholes who saw an opportunity to have a Purge night or they went out there with the objective of making the black citizens of Ferguson look like all the things the racist shitbags have been saying about them are true... it doesn't really matter to me. They weren't there with any good intentions at all, and as far as I can tell a person doesn't need to be part of a secret tactical ops squad placed by law enforcement to be an agent provocateur. Their actions helped change the narrative that the media is delivering, didn't they?
posted by palomar at 10:54 AM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

brundlefly: “Totally. And, to be clear, I don't think that it's a big jump to think that there are agent provocateurs at work in Ferguson generally. But we're going off of a couple of vague tweets about "white guys with covered faces" here, and that doesn't seem like enough information to draw any conclusions, given that there are other possibilities.”

Agreed. However, I recall seeing a couple of white dudes walk through the shot during All In Thursday night that caught my paranoid eye immediately. I said to Dad, "If the cops want to keep a lid on things, they should go ask White Dude in do-rag and White Dude in skull t-shirt some questions." Also, "There are a lot more white people with visible tattoos than I would have expected at this rally."

What's bothered me most about the coverage on the looting is that it seems like they're showing the footage from last Sunday when talking about what happened last night. No mention of the Panthers or Nation of Islam people throwing out the looters and guarding the stores until dawn either.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:10 AM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

doesn't seem like enough information to draw any conclusions, given that there are other possibilities

The nice thing about this sentiment is that you can essentially never draw any conclusions about anything at all.
posted by maxwelton at 11:14 AM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

“What Happens to #Ferguson Affects Ferguson,” Zeynep Tufekci, Medium, 14 August 2014

Ferguson is about many things, starting first with race and policing in America.

But it’s also about internet, net neutrality and algorithmic filtering.

[…]

It’s a clear example why net neutrality is a human rights issue; a free speech issue; and an issue of the voiceless being heard, on their own terms.

posted by ob1quixote at 11:18 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Wonderful American World of Informers and Agents Provocateurs
posted by scody at 11:35 AM on August 16, 2014 [10 favorites]

palomar: "Whether they're just sociopathic assholes who saw an opportunity to have a Purge night or they went out there with the objective of making the black citizens of Ferguson look like all the things the racist shitbags have been saying about them are true... it doesn't really matter to me."

It matters to me. If we are to immediately write off acts of destruction and violence as the actions of agent provocateurs instead of young ideologues doing bad shit -- supposedly in the name of the good guys -- we end up ignoring the later. These are two separate types of people and should be addressed in different ways.

maxwelton: "The nice thing about this sentiment is that you can essentially never draw any conclusions about anything at all."

Seriously? The description we have is "white" and "masked". Should I really nail down a conclusion based on that limited amount of information? Again, I have no problem believing that there are sneaky fucks trying to undermine the protests, but it doesn't mean we should discredit ourselves by declaring every bad thing that someone does a false flag.
posted by brundlefly at 11:56 AM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Iceberg Boys: On Michael Brown and Other Complicated Lives Cut Short.
posted by metaquarry at 11:58 AM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

“Ferguson erupts in fresh protests, looting after police link Michael Brown to robbery,” Jerry Markon, Wesley Lowery and DeNeen L. Brown, The Washington Post, 16 August 2014

“More violence, protests in Ferguson, Mo., over Michael Brown shooting,” Matt Pearce, Molly Hennessy-Fiske, and Tina Susman, The Los Angeles Times, 16 August 2014

“A Militarized Police, a Less Violent Public,” Annie Lowrey, New York Magazine, 15 August 2014

“We Created a Policing Monster By Mistake,” Kevin Drum, Mother Jones Magazine, 26 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 12:00 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

Nixon press conference in an hour.
posted by futz at 12:03 PM on August 16, 2014

ob1quixote: "What's bothered me most about the coverage on the looting is that it seems like they're showing the footage from last Sunday when talking about what happened last night. No mention of the Panthers or Nation of Islam people throwing out the looters and guarding the stores until dawn either."

Ugh. Yeah. Shocking, that.
posted by brundlefly at 12:05 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

“We Created a Policing Monster By Mistake,” Kevin Drum, Mother Jones Magazine, 26 August 2014

Yes. By mistake. Of course.

Oy.
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:30 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

The Militarization of U.S. Police: Finally Dragged Into the Light by the Horrors of Ferguson by Glenn Greenwald
posted by jeffburdges at 12:45 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

I continue to be impressed with the level-headedness of Al Jazeera's coverage:

As outsiders descend on Ferguson, locals focus on Michael Brown: With opportunists seeking to benefit from politics and media spotlight, residents emphasize incident from one week ago
posted by argonauta at 1:11 PM on August 16, 2014

Totally. And, to be clear, I don't think that it's a big jump to think that there are agent provocateurs at work in Ferguson generally. But we're going off of a couple of vague tweets about "white guys with covered faces" here, and that doesn't seem like enough information to draw any conclusions, given that there are other possibilities.

Well I mean you basically have three options here:

1. Agent provocateurs
2. Dumbass out of town white kids
3. Some bizarre belief that it was neither one or two because black people lol.

White people with masks on, as a tweet. Why is that something to instantly be skeptical of? Have you never been at a protest and seen 1 or 2? It just doesn't seem like a stretch to me.
posted by emptythought at 1:18 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

Also, the coverage this is getting is a strong argument for the agent provocateur angle in and of itself. It's been almost 100% represented as only locals looting and "rioting". Mission accomplished.

Look at the results before you discount the potential causes and perpetrators. See who benefits.
posted by emptythought at 1:20 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Nixon notes:

- shoutout to local protesting folks for standing up peacefully to instigators
- beefing up the DOJ investigation
- shoutout to Ron Johnson for the good work
- only small groups instigating violence and crime, doing so unacceptable
- totally declaring state of emergency and curfew in Ferguson tho
- lotta people, lemme tell you, a lotta people working on finding answers
- tonight let the journey continue
- now let me go over a few points and

At this point interrupted by a woman suggesting that charging the shooter with murder is the path to justice.
posted by cortex at 1:22 PM on August 16, 2014 [29 favorites]

Why would a police chief incite violence on his own streets?

Lets hope the DOJ investigation looks into that.
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

Thanks cortex!
posted by futz at 1:25 PM on August 16, 2014

MO Highway Patrol Col. up now praising Ron Johnson and turning the mic over to him to explain curfew plan. Questions about the slow investigation in the pause, then Johnson starts in:

- curfew from midnight to 5am, will be enforced, no specifics
- talking about things folks have asked him in the crowds last couple nights: canvasing witnesses door-to-door, leaving a cards for folks not at home to contact them, distributing to clergy as well, asking folks to provide substantial info

Now a local minister maybe? saying folks are welcome here (the presser?) and thanking folks for coming, saying we'll seek justice, god bless you and god keep you.

Now district congressman, praising Ron Johnson and the highway patrol and folks' peaceful assembly last night.

Opening it up for questions.
posted by cortex at 1:29 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

This is a helluva press conference. Any of y'all that think the people of Ferguson aren't focused like a laser on justice for Mike Brown should rest assured that that is not the case.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:34 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Someone asking Gov. if he will take the investigation away from Bob McCullough. Nixon makes face that says boy oh gosh I wish you wouldn't ask me that, declines to provide any kind of answer.

Angry shouts about how if anyone but a cop had pulled the trigger they'd be in jail.

Someone asking how Nixon intends to enforce the curfew. Nixon says the best way for peace is for everyone to get indoor by midnight and get a good five hours sleep.

Lady interrupts, Nixon says "I'll let you yell at me next." Focus, not distracted, justice, can't have looting at night, still not saying anything.

Question again about enforcing the curfew, Ron Johnson steps back up, bunch of crosstalk about enforcement and looting before he starts talking. Starts in with we are better than yelling at each other. Tonight we'll enforce the curfew, not with trucks, not with teargas, we'll communicate that it's time to go home.

Did you know about deployments of SWAT last night? Last night we had several officers trapped in a parking lot, three officers injured?, sent in two armored vehicles to get them out, one injured officer deployed one can of teargas, Johnson got those officers out of there.
posted by cortex at 1:35 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

LAPD Cops Fatally Beat Father of Three During a Traffic Stop a Week Before They Killed Ezell Ford
posted by jeffburdges at 1:37 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

I really wish someone had asked why the cop left town, and gotten even a nonanswer.

Who thought that was ok? It looks guilty as fuck even if you're not.
posted by emptythought at 1:42 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Can we have a 2-way radio and direct contact with someone to communicate about things happening at night? Yes. We can have a 2-way radio? No, not that but I'll be there, you can talk to me, we'll communicate. How do we communicate to you that all people who intended to be peaceable have left the area? Then shouting and crosstalk from audience.

Man named Malik Shibaz(?) (Blank Panther folks?), helped make sure people were out of the street by 2 a.m. last night, setting curfew at midnight seems like a significant tightening of the window. Can curfew be eased back? Not confident police can clear peaceful demonstrations at midnight without confrontation. Thursday night didn't end peacefully by magic, it happened thanks to community organization and not having police press in like Friday night.

Ron Johnson: he's correct, those groups working with us, man in black pants and black shirts, helped with the situation, I told Gov. Nixon as much. We can't do this ourselves, I can't do this myself, this was accomplished by the community.

Man in crowd: emergency response, 911 not helping with calls in the middle of the night. We need these services, everyone was busy. Johnson: it's a problem, that's why we need the streets clear at night so emergency personnel can respond to citizens.

Lots of shouting, crosstalk.

Question: will the media be allowed on the scene?
Man in the crowd: the police are attacking people.
Question: when will the state of emergency end.
Woman in the crowd: why when a young man was killed and we've had no answers about justice, you're telling people to be calm and peaceful?

Nixon: vague vague vague peace answers vague.
posted by cortex at 1:46 PM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

Nixon: clearly media has a role in helping here. We're watching this one day at a time, our hope is to return back to a peaceful normal.

Reverend back up at mic, very angry man shouting from audience, Malik Shabazz talks guy down from audience and reiterates concern about tightness of curfew.

Congressman Lacy Clay back, trying to clarify the process of charging and trying shooting officer, people not really responding well to follow-the-process bullet points.

Nixon: we'll be super transparent about this, gonna make sure press can openly and fairly observe and report, THANK YOU VERY MUCH exit stage right to the beginning of an angry chant and that's it for the feed.
posted by cortex at 1:51 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

Tomorrow I have a call scheduled with a bright beautiful and ambitious young Nigerian American woman I mentor. I fear her world is in tatters. She used teh word trauma to describe what this past week has been like for America and she's halfway through qualifying as a psychologist so I suspect she's using the word with all that it entails. Imma gonna have to hold her close from across the ocean.

Damn you all.
posted by infini at 1:54 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

Here's a little vignette of ingrained racism here in the Midwest U.S.

I live on the south side of Indianapolis. St. Louis is the next big city if you head west on I-70, about one and a half states away. St. Louis and Indianapolis have a lot in common. I was at a gas station here in this middle class, majority white neighborhood around 10 this morning. Everyone in the store was white. I was standing in line with my morning caffeine when a black man in his early 30s and a 10 or 11 year old black boy walked in. The cashier looked directly at them, smiled and said "Good morning, gentlemen!"

She didn't say good morning to me or the other 10 or so white people in the store. Why did she say good morning to just them? I'm a regular. So were many of the others there. She had a pack of Camel Lights ready for me when I got to the register because she knows that's what I smoke. Why didn't we, among her best customers, deserve a good morning?

It was a dogwhistle. She wanted to make it clear to the black folk that she was aware of them and would be watching them. It was a warning not to shoplift or worse. She didn't feel the need to say good morning to me or any of the other white folks there because she didn't expect any of us to steal anything or cause trouble. It also served as notice to us white folks that The Other was among us.

Now, the cashier is a nice, friendly lady. She's a grandmother who likes to talk about her grand-babies. I'm pretty sure she didn't say to herself, "I'm going to discriminate against those black people to make them feel as uncomfortable as possible." She probably didn't think much about it at all. It was a reflexive action that will happen today, here in the Midwest and all across America, in all kinds of little ways. Just as it did yesterday and the day before. Just as it will tomorrow and the day after.

America has a long, long way to go before we can shed our racist past because we are still living in the racist present. I love my country, but sometimes I want to cry about how fucked up we are.
posted by double block and bleed at 1:58 PM on August 16, 2014 [28 favorites]

That was pretty much useless. Questions about the investigation were pretty much ignored. And Nixon looks like he could really give a fuck. He seems bothered more than anything.
posted by mokeydraws at 1:59 PM on August 16, 2014

Why ever did they think a curfew would go over well? Yikes, they are disabused of that notion. I fear for things tonight.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:59 PM on August 16, 2014

Nixon is like a deer in the headlights. He is in way over his head.
posted by Justinian at 2:05 PM on August 16, 2014

I don't know if it's online, but I want a YouTube of the end of T.J. Holmes coverage of the press conference. He was nearly in tears. I had to tweet him a "<3" because there are no adequate words to express my feelings.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

emptythought: "1. Agent provocateurs
2. Dumbass out of town white kids
3. Some bizarre belief that it was neither one or two because black people lol.

White people with masks on, as a tweet. Why is that something to instantly be skeptical of? Have you never been at a protest and seen 1 or 2?"

I'm not sure if we're having the same conversation. I'm not skeptical of the accuracy of the tweet. I don't doubt that at all. I'm "skeptical" in the sense that I'm not willing to sit in front of a computer, states away, and say that this particular incident was absolutely #1 instead of #2. In fact, unless I'm missing something, Wesley Lowery didn't say that either.

In no way am I suggesting that it's #3 and I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

With that, I'm going to bow out. This whole derail doesn't seem to be going in any productive directions.
posted by brundlefly at 2:20 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Understanding Ferguson; Understanding White Supremacy

Ferguson is a window into America’s racial fabric, reflecting the deindustrialization of American cities and the many families that have been left behind in its wake, often confined by prison walls, enforced by guards and police forces.

Yet, despite stereotypes, it is a story of perseverance and resistance, a community of working-families, a farmer’s market, kids playing on the playground, and so much more. It is not the caricature that America continues to paint yet a reminder of our failures and misplaced priorities.

posted by audi alteram partem at 2:23 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

“The trial of Mike Brown,“ Goldie Taylor, The Grio, 16 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 2:24 PM on August 16, 2014

“Is Race An Issue In Ferguson? Depends On Whom You Ask,” Joel Anderson, Buzzfeed, 15 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 2:29 PM on August 16, 2014

Unless I missed something, the incident report for Mike Brown's death has STILL not been released. As I said above, I'm quite sure the reason is that someone is waiting to create a fake version when they have refined their story sufficiently, but you'd think someone in the press might bother to make a fuss about that. Given the police department released an incident report from an unrelated incident.
posted by tavella at 2:37 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

She didn't say good morning to me or the other 10 or so white people in the store. Why did she say good morning to just them? I'm a regular. So were many of the others there. She had a pack of Camel Lights ready for me when I got to the register because she knows that's what I smoke. Why didn't we, among her best customers, deserve a good morning?

A more charitable reading might be that she knew you. She knew the others. She didn't need to put on a friendly face with people she knew. And she was just trying to be nice and welcoming to folks she didn't know.
posted by bowmaniac at 2:41 PM on August 16, 2014 [12 favorites]

Maybe it was a small show of support because of all this mess?
posted by Trochanter at 2:53 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

“The Guns of Ferguson: When Tyranny Really Comes into Town, the NRA Goes into Hiding,” Corey Pein, The Baffler, 14 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 2:56 PM on August 16, 2014 [16 favorites]

The comparison to the Red Dawn photo is gold.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:00 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

That BuzzFeed article is seriously bumming me out... come on, fellow white people, stop being so fucking blind to reality. Your fellow Fergusonians are out in the street in droves, protesting the shitty treatment they receive daily at your hands, and you're seriously going to sit there and insist that there are no problems, never have been, and these must be "professional protestors" imported from the outside?

I'm so tired of this shit.
posted by palomar at 3:12 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

A more charitable reading might be that she knew you. She knew the others. She didn't need to put on a friendly face with people she knew. And she was just trying to be nice and welcoming to folks she didn't know.

This exact alternate story kind of plausible deniability is how microagressions work though. It's a large part of how racism continues to exist and thrive in the 21st century, where in calling it out you look like a ridiculous conspiracy theorist because there's totally another reasonable explanation.

If you talk to someone who experiences it all day every day, you'll realize that while every individual instance can usually be explained away like that, the pattern of treatment they receive really shows it as what it truly is.
posted by emptythought at 3:41 PM on August 16, 2014 [17 favorites]

Palomar -that sounds like a garbled version of another theory I've heard, which is that there are some Anonymous/Black Bloc types who've come in and that THEY are the ones responsible for any violence coming from the protestors, while the actual residents of Ferguson are protesting peacefully. I've had a run-in with Black Bloc guys and I'd totally buy that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:46 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

So, I just got back from a ladies who lunch event, where one of the attendees claims that her boss is the father of the cop who shot mike brown. Which means I think I just heard the first version of the story they are going to release about what happened. It was full of logical holes if one tries to match it to the narrative the existing timeline suggests. But I didn't want to raise any logistical issues, lest they be used to tighten the story before they try to fly this flag.

I am, however jotting it down and going to try to reach some reporters who are operating in good faith, just so when the story comes out, they're ready with questions about it.
posted by dejah420 at 3:48 PM on August 16, 2014 [24 favorites]

A more charitable reading might be that she knew you.

Ah, there's always a more charitable reading, isn't there? That's a perfectly succinct summary of how this shit works today, and how white residents of Ferguson can say stuff like this and believe it:

“I think this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion,” said Tries, who is white and 35 years old. “There’s never been any kind of race thing here. It’s something I never even think about.”
posted by naju at 3:50 PM on August 16, 2014 [10 favorites]

I really don't like talking about it but I know from experience this shyte actually does happen. The apparent white dudes could also be agent provocteurs of the white power ilk. In the thing I was involved in they did shit in order to get the protesting group blamed. Apparently it's an MO from those up here. They also made it pretty clear at times during face to face confrontations that the best thing that could happen would be for the protesters to throw a shot. They wanted it and put themselves or tried pretty hard to put themselves into positions for it to happen. Some of them are just plain evil and pretty coniving.
posted by Jalliah at 3:51 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Trochanter: "Maybe it was a small show of support because of all this mess?"

Maybe I am wrong in this case. Maybe I'm just on edge because of "all this mess". Maybe I heard something that wasn't there. I'd like to think so, but the commonality with other such instances where I know for a fact that racism was at play makes me think that my impression was all too true. Too many times have people shared their racist opinions with me, assuming that I was one of them.
posted by double block and bleed at 3:52 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Hey, you were there.
posted by Trochanter at 3:55 PM on August 16, 2014

I am, however jotting it down and going to try to reach some reporters who are operating in good faith, just so when the story comes out, they're ready with questions about it.

Reach out NOW. Right now. You'll be far more credible than if you do after the official story spreads.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:08 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

From the SPLC, more on the Malik Shabazz that cortex mentions in his press conference summary above:

Although he's sometimes identified in the mainstream media as a mere "legal adviser" or "community organizer," Malik Shabazz is a racist black nationalist with a long, well-documented history of violently anti-Semitic remarks and accusations about the inherent evil of white people. He is also particularly skilled at orchestrating provocative protests. Ousted from the Nation of Islam after he became an embarrassment even to that hard-line group, Shabazz went on to take up the leadership of the New Black Panther Party.

posted by desjardins at 4:15 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

From the last paragraph of the article I just linked:

The NBPP generated a great deal of media attention with its militant response to the death of Trayvon Martin, the black teenager whose February 2012 shooting death in Sanford, Fla., at the hands of a neighborhood watch volunteer caused waves of outrage across America. Shabazz’s group offered a $10,000 reward for the capture of Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman, and announced, but did not ultimately hold, an armed rally in Sanford with the New Black Liberation, a fellow black separatist group.

posted by desjardins at 4:17 PM on August 16, 2014

dejah420, try any of the #Ferguson reporters in my Twitter list. There are probably better lists out there but I do try to keep it up to date. Chris King, in particular, seems to be hooking people up -- he just tweeted

Corporate atty friend just pledged $5K personal & $10K corporate to form a Canfield Green Comm Dvlp Corp & acquire the QT.

and earlier

I pray @TheePharoah is lawyered up & talking to @FBI. He live tweeted that #MikeBrown died while running away in a "barrage" of gunfire.

Yeah, desjardins, I'm uncomfortable with the insertion of the NBPP precisely because it's like sugar sticks to the children at FOX.
posted by dhartung at 4:21 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I dunno, "somebody I met who I don't know says that somebody she is acquainted with is the father of the cop" isn't exactly Deep Throat. What are the reporters going to do with that?
posted by Justinian at 4:28 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Jesse Jackson is booed in Ferguson, protestors tell Felonius Munk they wished Jackson & Sharpton hadn't come, "they're not our leaders"
posted by desjardins at 4:32 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

dejah420 isn't asking them to run a story on it. Maybe they won't listen, but it can't hurt to try.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 4:32 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

> That BuzzFeed article is seriously bumming me out... come on, fellow white people, stop being so fucking blind to reality. Your fellow Fergusonians are out in the street in droves ...

In the images in twitter feeds I've been following, it seems like a decent number of white people have been joining protests in Ferguson for a town that has 30% white population. Most them appear be to working class, and I assume most of them are local. So I get the impression that a lot of white people in the area get it, and are outraged, even though the 'good old boys' who run the local power structures don't care, and are just pissed off about national scrutiny.
posted by nangar at 4:38 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

I've sent messages off, not because I want or expect anyone to run it, but so they are prepared when the story comes out, so they can question it. They are going to say the Mike shot himself with the cops gun, through the car door, twice. They will say the other shots were self defense. They will say that five shots total were fired, 3 of them in the car, 2 outside the car.
posted by dejah420 at 4:48 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

Headline from conservative site that shall remain nameless: "Weak police response in Ferguson confirms necessity of self-defense, gun ownership". Boy, talk about "It depends on who you ask"!
posted by MikeMc at 4:55 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

dejah420, that doesn't make any sense - i'm not seeing this as at all plausable
posted by pyramid termite at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

That story is certainly ridiculous and contrived enough. It reminds me very much of the weeks following Trayvon Martin's death, when Zimmerman himself was saying nothing, but friends/family were spreading the "he got out of the car to check the street he was on and was suddenly jumped" story as anonymous comments on news sites.
posted by Danila at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

What are the reporters going to do with that?

I guess I figured there was a name that could be a source, if someone is trying to do a story. Of course this is probably a case where people willing to tell that story that dejah420 related will not exactly be difficult to find.
posted by dhartung at 4:58 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I just read the highly-liked reader's comments on the most recent New York Times story on this, and it's deeply discouraging. About 90% of them take the "Brown was a thug, got shot causing trouble, and the rioters are doing the same" line. I think that for the vast majority of white America, that store video is the proof they were looking for, whether they knew it or not. I have zero doubt that a lot of them think of themselves as liberal or progressive and, before the video was released, inclined to question the police and see Brown as a victim but of course no longer.

But, really, these biases run very deep and very widely in our culture and so, yeah, the only deserving black man, the only one who ever deserves our attention and scrupulous justice, are those who pass every test for exemplary morality we can ever come up with, and over and over and over they'll be expected to pass those tests, to be model citizens and devout churchgoers and middle-class homeowners and friendly and polite and always very sympathetic to how white people really do want to help and they won't ever ever ever express anger about racism and so that kind of black man, well, if he gets shot down by a police officer then it will be a national travesty and evidence of racism. Any other black man, though, he was probably causing trouble.

Fuck those people and how they think.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:00 PM on August 16, 2014 [38 favorites]

dejah420: “They are going to say […]”

Thanks for relating that, dejah420. Do you have any reason to believe that your luncheon companion is actually acquainted with Wilson's father? Because, no offense to her, that story sounds made up to me. No one could be expected to believe such a cockamamie account.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:05 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

“When Will It End?,” Joel Anderson, Buzzfeed, 16 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 5:20 PM on August 16, 2014

I would love it if they tried such a bullshit story. It will be easily refuted by the autopsy.
posted by zug at 5:32 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

They are going to say the Mike shot himself with the cops gun, through the car door, twice

Ugh. On one hand, i can't believe they're going to try this garbage.

On the other hand, just like the Martin case, you know there's going to be a bunch of assholes out there who will instantly believe it.

It's a believable story if you just want any flimsy excuse, and you were already pre-loaded against him and ready to side with the cops.

It doesn't matter if it's later refuted, It's all about getting the story out there in the first place. The initial story always gets way more attention than any "update:" followup. Especially if they drag it out long enough that the majority of public attention and spotlight has moved on.
posted by emptythought at 5:35 PM on August 16, 2014

They are going to say the Mike shot himself with the cops gun, through the car door, twice. They will say the other shots were self defense.

FYI a woman claiming to be a friend of the family called in to a radio show and gave an account of the shooting, supposedly from the police officer's perspective: transcript, audio.

Obviously we have to view these sorts of stories with the gravest suspicion as pretty much 100% untrustworthy.

However, I will say that both this and the version dejah420 gives above, do help confirm my own biased opinion, that it is almost impossible for me to imagine a scenario where this situation went down with the final result that it did, that doesn't at minimum require terrible/incompetent police work by the officer involved.

There is just no way you end up killing an unarmed person in a situation such as the one we're discussing, unless the police officer made several basic, grievous errors in judgment and action along the way.
posted by flug at 5:46 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

ob1quixote: “[T]he end of T.J. Holmes coverage of the press conference”

This video is online now. However, don't search about TJ Holmes and Ferguson right now, unless you want to read posts from the scum of the earth about Holmes' emotional reaction to the curfew.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:48 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

ob1quixote: "Because, no offense to her, that story sounds made up to me. No one could be expected to believe such a cockamamie account."

But as has been pointed out before, that's absolutely in keeping with how the authorities have handled the events to date. "Throwing lies at the wall to see what sticks" is one description I've seen that seems on-the-nose to me. The proposed story dejah420 relates seems to be at a comparable level of implausibility as most of the other things ("he struggled with the cop!" "he tried to steal the cop's gun!" "he practically strangled the store employee!" etc. etc.) that have been suggested.
posted by Lexica at 5:51 PM on August 16, 2014

And for the record here, I don't believe word one of that version.
posted by dejah420 at 5:54 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Really? Who among us hasn't shot ourselves through a car door. Twice.
posted by Justinian at 5:55 PM on August 16, 2014 [21 favorites]

And it fits with the refusal to release the incident report. Throw out stories, wait for people to refute/vet them, and eventually settle on the least disprovable one. Especially since they have control of the weapon and car and confiscated phones, and thus can destroy or stage evidence at their leisure.
posted by tavella at 5:56 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

From that article on Kinloch:

a senior airport official told me Lambert could easily handle twice the traffic it currently gets.

Really? Last time I had to fly, it took three hours to get through security. And while more airport traffic might boost the neighboring economy a bit -- the loss of TWA etc. is probably a reason why places like Ferguson and Bridgeton/St. Ann are in so much decline -- I don't know if I would want to see more car traffic around.
posted by Foosnark at 6:25 PM on August 16, 2014

I assume the idea is that the cop and Brown were supposed to be struggling over the gun (because otherwise the story reaches news heights of stupidity) and it went off twice. Seems like forensic analysis would be able to confirm or deny that scenario with gunshot residue. Unless one thinks the police would go so far as to try to mock up a crime scene completely of course. But that's really, really, really risky to try while the feds are watching over your shoulder. If they got caught the place would burn to the ground. Rightly.
posted by Justinian at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't think anyone here is giving the story any credence.
posted by futz at 6:31 PM on August 16, 2014

Sure, but the cops have got to come up with some explanation for what happened. And "struggle over the gun" does appear to be on the table.
posted by Justinian at 6:33 PM on August 16, 2014

I mean, the longer they go with "We can't comment on anything that happened for fear of tainting the investigation BUT LOOK OVER HERE A VIDEO OF BROWN BEING MEAN TO A SMALL GUY" the worse it looks. And it already looks really bad.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yup. We have all basically agreed on that.
posted by futz at 6:37 PM on August 16, 2014

Ok, so the Dana show linked above with a version of the story is broadcast from Dallas. I had lunch today in Dallas. The person who called the radio show is not the same person who told me the story. The officers father is in Dallas, and the caller said she talked to the cops wife. I'm gonna make a big leap here and guess that the cop has made his way to Dallas, and that's why we're seeing the trial story balloons start here.

(Dallas being shorthand for a massive area that includes many towns and millions of people. )
posted by dejah420 at 6:42 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

But... even if they "struggled over the gun" why then jump out of the car and continue firing at Brown? Cops know that people who are shot and then run away eventually end up at some local hospital.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:44 PM on August 16, 2014

But... even if they "struggled over the gun" why then jump out of the car and continue firing at Brown? Cops know that people who are shot and then run away eventually end up at some local hospital.

Well, according to the radio interviewee, because he then turned, having gotten a thirty-five foot head start, and "bum-rushed" back towards the officer.

(The fear of the charging black man has been pretty regularly invoked since settler times, of course. The modern version being the PCP/meth/bath salts-crazed lunatic, who cannot be pacified and has superhuman strength.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:53 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

But... even if they "struggled over the gun" why then jump out of the car and continue firing at Brown? Cops know that people who are shot and then run away eventually end up at some local hospital.

The only logical story that fits what witnesses saw is that the cop either precipitated this or escalated it and then lost all control over himself.

Anything else requires an illogical story of a black teen (of all people) acting heedless and violent toward a cop...but even in that story, the number of shots indicate the cop lost control over himself and kept firing.

Once lawyers get involved, of course, the illogical story often wins (or just confuses things enough that the logical story can't win).

Every story you hear that involves Brown being so lacking in self-preservation that he would instigate a fight with an armed cop requires you to assume he was insane, incredibly foolhardy or just a violent kid waiting to go off.

Sadly, it's a lot easier to convince a lot of people of one of those three being true than to convince them that a cop would decide to start some shit with a black kid who he saw as overly disrespectful, and end up killing him because he himself was clearly a violent person just waiting to go off.
posted by emjaybee at 6:55 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yahoo news: Photos: Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson earned police honor before fatal shooting
posted by madamjujujive at 6:56 PM on August 16, 2014

US rethinks giving excess military gear to police
posted by Weeping_angel at 7:13 PM on August 16, 2014

It's really amazing how close mainstream American's lives can resemble a game of Dungeons and Dragons.

Coverings of protection are only available to level 6 ~~mages~~ evangelicals
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:17 PM on August 16, 2014 [9 favorites]

Cops, Arresting Peaceful People, Were Almost Stopped By Bystanders Trying to Stop the Apparent Abuse
posted by jeffburdges at 7:21 PM on August 16, 2014

California Cops Seize Recordings Of Questionable Arrest, Claim They Have The 'Right' To Do So
posted by jeffburdges at 7:27 PM on August 16, 2014

That picture of Wilson has like, Constantine levels of creepiness about it.
posted by valkane at 7:42 PM on August 16, 2014

live stream
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:45 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

why, oh why, did they enable comments.
posted by emptythought at 7:51 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Don't read the comments" doesn't begin to express it. It's more like "burn your monitor and bury the ashes at a Superfund site".
posted by uosuaq at 7:55 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

At the bottom of the comments box is a small hide comments tab.
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:59 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

For a recap of events last night, someone put a storify of Antonio French's account of late Friday night-early Sat morning together - Artw linked to his feed this morning, but he has posted a kajillion tweets since then.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:05 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

This live feed is up too - goes without saying, you will need to bleach your eyes out if you so much as glance at comments
posted by madamjujujive at 8:38 PM on August 16, 2014

a senior airport official told me Lambert could easily handle twice the traffic it currently gets.

Really? Last time I had to fly, it took three hours to get through security.

No, that's actually correct—of its four concourses, Lambert only has Concourses A and C open right now. Its newest runway is also not seeing much use. It could easily ramp up operations to accommodate more traffic. But right now, things are generally slow, so it's operating in a more bare-bones mode, with fewer employees. That's why when it's busy, it sucks.
posted by limeonaire at 8:56 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

US rethinks giving excess military gear to police

Seriously, the MRAPs and body armor could be saving lives right now. The Free Syrian Army (farmers and dentists or not) could use them; or the Peshmerga; or the Afghan army; or the Nigerian Armed Forces, etc.

Protest sign: "Ferguson Police Need Better Script Writers"
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:07 PM on August 16, 2014 [4 favorites]

that livestream has a beautiful instagram filter look going on.
posted by desjardins at 9:15 PM on August 16, 2014

Live multistream

Vice live stream
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:22 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yesterday, I publicly announced on Facebook that I was suspending my policy against fighting with people on the Internet. My goal has been to call out at least one racist, ignorant comment about Ferguson and/or Mike Brown every day—and hopefully a few more if there's time.

And so I am very much appreciating all the people on Twitter right now who also seem to have decided it's time to fight the forces of stupidity, even on small stuff... For instance, some organization just now was like, "CURFEW has begun in #FERGUSON" and someone wrote back, "The curfew has not begun. It's 23:14 CST. y'all need to learn about time zones." Heh.

And with one exception, which I called out, every stupid, inflammatory tweet I've clicked on in the last 10 minutes has had someone beat me to the punch. Thank you, good people of the world.
posted by limeonaire at 9:23 PM on August 16, 2014 [7 favorites]

I've been reading Antonio French's Twitter feed. French is the St Louis City Alderman who has been one of the local leaders of the protest. It is all excellent.

However, I have to particularly highlight the section of his account from early this morning where he narrates what happened after he left for home after a full day of protests had ended in apparent peace, then rushed back after looting started and spent the rest of the night working to stop the violence and destruction.

It's a fascinating and gripping account. It also puts a few of his key tweets that have been highlighted here and elsewhere ("Communities need police. But here and now, the slightest police presence enrages people." "Police not coming in at this point -- even with the looting -- was a very good thing." etc.) into a far richer and more meaningful context.

The account starts with this tweet: "I 1st left the area around 11:30. Things were peaceful & rainy. I took my wife home & was hoping for a good night's sleep. Then got a text. . . . "

I compiled the rest of the story here. Well worth a read, if you're wondering what things are really like on the ground--and whether it really is possible for a few determined and resourceful people to make a positive difference.

(Answer: It is.)
posted by flug at 9:26 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

From reports on twitter, the police are confining media to a staging area ("pen") from midnight to 5 am - if they leave they are subject to arrest. How is that legal?

sources:
https://twitter.com/JABuchanan/status/500858835460833280
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/500861654280572929
posted by desjardins at 9:32 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

people said exactly the same thing about free speech zones. i think the answer is pretty much "sue us later, lump it"
posted by emptythought at 9:34 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

more confirmation from @justinglawe.

I've always been a strong supporter of a free press, but this has definitely solidified my feelings. If anything goes down tonight, and the media is barred from being there... why even have them, free speech is a farce.
posted by desjardins at 9:38 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

As long as you make sure to say, "Abortion is murder!" or "I'm just here to advise and council the police against violence!" your right to speech on the sidewalks is unassailable.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:39 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

If they can't go out on their own because of the curfew, the police should have journalists embedded with them.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:40 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I have a Twitter list of community leaders, media and assorted locals I've been following.

One point of trivia is that Jack, one of the Twitter cofounders is apparently from there - not sure if Ferguson or StL - but he has been there for a few days. People have asked to interview him but he says he has his own broadcast, heh.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:43 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Antonio French:
The lot of Red's Barbeque has become the staging ground for the group looking for a confrontation with police. #ferguson
posted by madamjujujive at 10:03 PM on August 16, 2014

Curfew's begun. Looks like there's a group that is armed and ready to fight.
posted by naju at 10:04 PM on August 16, 2014

Twitter @AntonioFrench: A hardcore group has congregated on Red's Barbeque lot. They say they aren't moving. Some are armed.

Jesus. If the police try to arrest these guys for violating the curfew it proves there is no limit to the stupidity of police officers when it comes to handling public protest - anywhere in the world it seems. If they start vandalizing arrest them. Otherwise let them sit there in the rain until they get tired and go home.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:07 PM on August 16, 2014 [5 favorites]

Somehow I forgot about this case in Milwaukee, where a black teenager who attempted to shoplift from a liquor store was choked to death by three white customers. While the death was ruled a homicide, the customers were never charged.

There's a rally tomorrow in downtown Milwaukee in support of Mike Brown, but also for the above-mentioned teenager and several unarmed black men who were killed by police. The weather is supposed to be sunny and relatively cool, so I'm guessing it will be well attended.
posted by desjardins at 10:10 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Can barely keep up with even my own curated list of tweets right now. Moments from some sort of confrontation on a group who have chosen to defy the curfew, for good or ill.
posted by dhartung at 10:44 PM on August 16, 2014

It seems like the Vice guys aren't in the media pen so this livestream is a good one.
posted by lizarrd at 10:46 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

Gas masks and shields.
posted by dhartung at 10:47 PM on August 16, 2014

The cops just tear gassed the crowd.
posted by Shouraku at 10:49 PM on August 16, 2014

Caught this tweet earlier: "What's happening in #Ferguson is not your typical protest situation, this is very different" says legal observer

(Probably National Lawyers Guild, on the scene as of at least today)
posted by dhartung at 10:49 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'd so love it if the protestors had caught whoever throw that molotov and unmasked them as an agent provocateur.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:54 PM on August 16, 2014

It's a large amount of tear gas; the press has left the pen and put on gas masks as the wind is blowing it their way.
posted by Shouraku at 10:54 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's going down.
posted by RedShrek at 10:54 PM on August 16, 2014

Tim Pool reporting hearing "a bullet ... something ... straight past me"
posted by dhartung at 10:55 PM on August 16, 2014

a few people are saying they heard shots
posted by madamjujujive at 10:56 PM on August 16, 2014

The recorded police announcement, looping endlessly, sounds like something out of a dystopian future movie.
posted by dhartung at 10:56 PM on August 16, 2014 [8 favorites]

Tim Pool reporting "they heard pops or shots come from the crowd."

The cops are shooting four to five canisters at a time, but appear to have stopped.
posted by Shouraku at 10:58 PM on August 16, 2014

Yamiche Alcindor ‏@Yamiche
Police throwing smoke at protestors. Official at media area says there has been no tear gas used tonight.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:58 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

police scanner says a person was shot
posted by yertledaturtle at 10:58 PM on August 16, 2014

From the crowd: "they got guns, we got guns."

Edit: just confirmed gunshots from the crowd. The police are moving forward.
posted by Shouraku at 10:59 PM on August 16, 2014

jg ‏@JustinGlawe
Reports that the cops are firing smoke, not tear gas, is bullshit. People are throwing up and coughing.

Jon Swaine ‏@jonswaine
I tasted it and this was a lie RT @mattdpearce Police liaison tells press it's all been smoke, not gas.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:00 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

The recorded police announcement, looping endlessly, sounds like something out of a dystopian future movie.

"YOU WILL BE SUBJECT TO ARREST... AND/OR OTHER ACTIONS"

You can't make this shit up
posted by naju at 11:01 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

CNN is straight up lying.
posted by yertledaturtle at 11:01 PM on August 16, 2014

@jswaine: Man shot in leg, taken to hospital in car
posted by dhartung at 11:02 PM on August 16, 2014

I've been reading this thread for days but haven't felt I had a single useful thing to add.

I still don't. But.

Jesus wept.
posted by faineant at 11:02 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

The tear gas has cleared up, and the crowd seems to be splitting up.

They are ordering the press to leave.

"You are in violation of a state applied curfew and are subject to arrest" (from the police loud speakers).
posted by Shouraku at 11:04 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Passing by blurrily in the Vice livestream's camera shot as the police order them out of the area: the 911 Hair Salon.

Gilliamesque.
posted by cortex at 11:06 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Local Police Kill AT LEAST 400 People a Year, Mostly Minorities
posted by jeffburdges at 11:08 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

The police line is moving forward.
posted by Shouraku at 11:09 PM on August 16, 2014

They are ordering the press to leave.

Journalists are willingly going into war zones getting captured, killed, and tortured in Gaza, Ukraine, Syria and Iraq, but we can't have journalists in Ferguson, MO. Why?
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:11 PM on August 16, 2014 [31 favorites]

Because this is the land of the free and the home of the brave.
posted by double block and bleed at 11:14 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

The police have someone detained. However, the cops are surrounding the press; preventing them from getting too close. You can't see much at this point.

Edit: two people being arrested. More tear gas fired: "I can smell the tear gas from here."
posted by Shouraku at 11:14 PM on August 16, 2014

Finally got GSV aligned with Tim Pool's feed location (here, if you want). Bing kept choking on me -- that much traffic?
posted by dhartung at 11:14 PM on August 16, 2014

The obnoxious motherfucker in me is having a hard time not expecting these journos to compromise being corralled by officers by peppering them fucking constantly with questions, though I can understand the idea to wait and listen for details in the distance.
posted by cortex at 11:17 PM on August 16, 2014 [3 favorites]

"It looks like there may be a few more arrests happening."

Edit: A man and a child are being detained.
posted by Shouraku at 11:18 PM on August 16, 2014

Pretty sure I only see cops at this point, and a scattering of reporters. Have the protesters all left?
posted by naju at 11:19 PM on August 16, 2014

Raining like a sonofabitch now.
posted by SPrintF at 11:20 PM on August 16, 2014

@byrontau: Multiple reporters and witness say someone was shot in the neck. Unclear what kind of bullets.
posted by dhartung at 11:20 PM on August 16, 2014

Pretty sure I only see cops at this point, and a scattering of reporters. Have the protesters all left?

It seems that the crowd is dispersing. Though there just was a loud bang that people seem to think was a Flash-Bang.

The press are photographing the empty tear gas cans.
posted by Shouraku at 11:21 PM on August 16, 2014

The protestors definitely seem to have left the designated free press zone. Who knows what's happening anywhere else.
posted by sporkwort at 11:22 PM on August 16, 2014

RT: @AntonioFrench just escorted out of the area by armed cops
posted by dhartung at 11:22 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

@jonswaine of the Guardian has been seriously badass in his coverage tonight.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:23 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

AME pastor Renita Lemkin (who took rubber bullet earlier in week) in same area as journos, insists "this is not our community", something about "came down from Chicago".
posted by dhartung at 11:26 PM on August 16, 2014

Pastor Renita Lemkin is saying that the people in the protest are from Chicago and aren't from the local community. She is saying that they are called "Revolution Now" or some such.
posted by Shouraku at 11:26 PM on August 16, 2014

Maybe we should just rename Ferguson "City 17."

It's been mentioned several times in this thread, but our nation and a society believes the greatest sin of all is to admit wrong and/or back down. We have never done much about bullies of any stripe because we love them.

It's like those perplexing moments when some religious person learns of my atheism and asks, incredulously, "what keeps you from doing [awful things]?" Uh, because I'm not a horrible person? The only reason a lot of people aren't openly racist shitbags and small-time thugs is because we still have just enough of a taboo against being those things, at least without the frosting of dog whistles and selectively enforced laws that everyone breaks, but only some get penalized.

We are a nation of that pathetic hominid, Internet Tough Guy.

I cannot help but think that a lot of this extremely blatant racist thuggery from "the law" is a dare to Obama. The republicans would sweep every office in the country if Whitey McCop was called, I mean really called, on their behavior. We are this close to nationwide chaos, fueled by vitriolic Fox News and their pet elected officials.

A lot of people truly believe that in a crisis their case of ramen, camo pants, and tough-looking guns will make them the next duke of Orange County, with all the spoils a suburban bedroom community with two malls and a Chilis can provide. Roll coal!

What a time to be alive.
posted by maxwelton at 11:30 PM on August 16, 2014 [20 favorites]

I believe that's actually Revolution Club Chicago, who apparently had a banner ("Fight the Power, and Transform the People, For Revolution") during some of the marches. The RW pundits have been in a hissy fit about them for days -- odd to have this particular confluence of opinion.
posted by dhartung at 11:31 PM on August 16, 2014

RT @CheyenneMishell: @AntonioFrench is on fox2now! He ain't arrested! #ferguson
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:32 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

The police that are "guarding" the press are being called "peace keepers."
posted by Shouraku at 11:34 PM on August 16, 2014

Okay, super glad they haven't arrested Antonio French again. He's doing yeoman's work out there trying to keep things calm and protect the citizenry... you know, kind of like what a cop is supposed to do...
posted by palomar at 11:34 PM on August 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yes, he was interviewed on Channel 2 - he really was just escorted out. He said there was a core group of people who wouldn't be told to go. Said he'd worked on them all day, some went home, but others weren't having it. He'd explained this wasn't a purely governmental idea, but that all the community leaders had talked with them and agreed it was best, that they'd be right back in the morning, etc.
Anyway he said the way it went down was pretty much the best case scenario, no excessive force that he saw.
posted by hypersloth at 11:45 PM on August 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Along with French, the leaders and citizens and black panthers are all to be so commended. This could have been a much more ugly night, I feared things might have been much worse. It's just so freaking stupid they forced a curfew ... on a Saturday night of all nights.

Now what? Will there be a curfew tomorrow night? The next night?

And Ron Johnson? Well they sure undermined him in the press conference. Ferguson cop who walked middle of road finds critics coming both ways

Cashman called it: "And Ron Johnson thinks he's dealing with people who are going to be on the up and up, but I think he's going to learn quickly that they are going to throw him under the bus."
posted by madamjujujive at 11:46 PM on August 16, 2014 [6 favorites]

Shouraku, there's at least person in a fluorescent vest who is an apparently self-appointed peacekeeper. He's not a cop. He may be relaying police POV as part of that.
posted by dhartung at 11:47 PM on August 16, 2014

Shouraku, there's at least person in a fluorescent vest who is an apparently self-appointed peacekeeper. He's not a cop. He may be relaying police POV as part of that.

Oh, I had no idea that that person wasn't a cop. Thanks for the info.

(though you just ruined the Hunger Games joke that I was planing...)
posted by Shouraku at 11:52 PM on August 16, 2014

RT @blackink12: I can't help but think all of this is so dangerously stupid. (10:39pm PST)
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:56 PM on August 16, 2014

The twitters say that the police are doing a press conference right now.(?)
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:36 AM on August 17, 2014

Press conference livestream
posted by rhizome at 12:51 AM on August 17, 2014

So, reading the alderman's account, it sounds like the curfew meant there were fewer community leaders and older people around to police the crowd, meaning that it's harder to calm and contain the angry young men who are doing the looting. And the press are coralled to stop them being able to document the attempts by the community to hold back the looting, and then released to take photos of burned-out stores.

Another mission accomplished for the police. I have to say, after a shaky start they are really doing a lot right.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:24 AM on August 17, 2014 [15 favorites]

I honestly don't know; is a curfew in anyway normal in this sort of situation? It seems like that's way out of bounds for a free society, even in the face of protesting and rioting.

This is really just going to keep getting worse, isn't it?
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:07 AM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

running order squabble fest, I suspect one of the 'how to be a thug' organizations has stepped in with helpful advice on how to crush resistance, a la the 'fusion centers' that coordinated the Occupy crack down. The sudden burst of sleazy competence is unlikely to be accidental.
posted by tavella at 7:22 AM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]

tavella, that would be a huge miscalculation on the part of the powers that be - the resisters aren't "occupying" anything, they're (for the most part) home - they're not using some abstract situationist tactics to protest for somewhat abstract issues, they're fighting for what they see as the survival of their community against police oppression

this can't be crushed by manipulation or mere arrests - and if the powers that be escalate this to the point where there are more dead bodies, all hell will break loose

it's my perception that those protesting are not going to stop until real things are done by the authorities to change things and get justice
posted by pyramid termite at 7:35 AM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Breaking: attorney general orders second autopsy of mike brown.
posted by dejah420 at 8:12 AM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

dejah420, was just about to post that. Elections matter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:16 AM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Obama is heading back to Washington in the middle of his vacation. Wonder if it has anything to do with Ferguson.
posted by futz at 8:52 AM on August 17, 2014

futz, I believe the conventional wisdom is we're about to get an executive immigration order.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:57 AM on August 17, 2014

People arrested last night were all sitting in their cars, not protesting.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:03 AM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

On NBC's "Meet the Press," Nixon reiterated his disapproval of the decision to release the video.

"To attempt to in essence disparage the character of this victim in the middle of a process is not right. It’s just not right," he said. "And secondarily, it did put the community, and quite frankly the region and the nation, on alert again. These are old wounds. These are deep wounds in these communities. And that action was not helpful."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:10 AM on August 17, 2014 [17 favorites]

I have to wonder if the police chief is trying to get fired, that he simply doesn't want his job if things change. He's spent decades with the way things are, he doesn't want to work in a 67% black department where currently it's 5%.
posted by rhizome at 9:43 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Missouri's days of unrest expose the stark reality of a segregated society, Guardian article by Rory Carroll and Jon Swaine.
posted by nangar at 10:02 AM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Ferguson In Pictures (St. Louis Post Dispatch)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]

Department of Justice orders federal autopsy: "Justice Department officials said they will still take the results of the state-performed autopsy 'into account in the course of their investigation.' "

Question: does the reference to "state-performed autopsy" mean that there is also an autopsy that the state of MO is performing in addition to the one done by the St. Louis County medical examiner?
posted by scody at 10:06 AM on August 17, 2014

running order squabble fest: “So, reading the alderman's account”

If you mean flug's compilation, those were the events of Saturday morning (Friday overnight). Last night was an entirely different kind of shit-show.

My favorite part was when the S.W.A.T. team got spooked by a mannequin and didn't know that since nearly all doors in businesses open out, kicking the frame isn't going to do much good to force the door.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:10 AM on August 17, 2014 [14 favorites]

That'd count as a special tactic, for sure. Is there a school for this stuff?
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

My favorite part was when the S.W.A.T. team got spooked by a mannequin and didn't know that since nearly all doors in businesses open out, kicking the frame isn't going to do much good to force the door.

Nice to see that the GET A BRAIN! MORANS! guy has a new job.
posted by scody at 10:24 AM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't know how much trust I'd even have in a federal autopsy, at this point. The Ferguson PD has had control of Michael Brown's body for a week (after they reportedly took him away in a black SUV). All they'd have to do is stick a gun in his hand and pull the trigger. And I think it's incredibly sad and scary and frustrating that I can't trust them not to have done that. I honestly don't know how there can be any resolution to Michael Brown's death after this past week.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:26 AM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

“The View from ‘Fergustan’” [12:10]—On The Media

Since the shooting death of Michael Brown by a police officer on Saturday, all eyes have been on the continuous protests being held in Ferguson, Missouri and broadcast over social media. Brooke talks with Trymaine Lee from Ferguson where he has been reporting this week, about what he's seen there.

“Among Michael Brown's neighbors, anger over a future lost,” Molly Hennessy-Fiske, The Los Angeles Times, 16 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 10:27 AM on August 17, 2014

I don't know how much trust I'd even have in a federal autopsy, at this point.

To be fair, saying "they will take the results of the state-performed autopsy into account," implies the feds will be checking the work of the state ME. "You better not screw this up, because we'll catch you," perhaps.
posted by rhizome at 10:33 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

All they'd have to do is stick a gun in his hand and pull the trigger.

It's not really that easy (which isn't to say that Ferguson PD wouldn't attempt to stage the body or the evidence in some way), because doing something like that could easily create contradictory forensic evidence, which presumably a federal ME would be able to detect.
posted by scody at 10:39 AM on August 17, 2014

Though Ferguson PD are clearly putting together a defence rather than an investigation I'm thinking even they would stop short of something that blatantly criminal. We'll see.
posted by Artw at 10:44 AM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here's a screenshot taken from MSNBC as SWAT cleared the storefront of threatening mannequins. (I believe this was at the time that Tim Pool was narrating "They seem to think someone is in this building.")

Chris King tweeted several times about this crime scene video (up since 8/11), which among other things seems to clearly show that Brown died of a headshot, and that the crowd spontaneously invented the "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" chant/taunt that evening. King was "amazed there was no riot on the spot". I don't know that I accept the interpretation that the position of the body definitively shows he was shot in the back (too many JFK assassination simulations have taught me that counterintuitive reactions are possible), but it does seem to show a headshot, which itself makes me curious, because it's my understanding that cops are taught to shoot for center of mass. (For comparison, not one of the 19 gunshot wounds [graphic graphic] to Amadou Diallo were to his head. Many were to his legs, perhaps due to the confined space of the foyer where it happened. Of 41 shots fired, 22 missed him entirely.)

Some graffiti from the other day.
posted by dhartung at 10:49 AM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

It's not really that easy (which isn't to say that Ferguson PD wouldn't attempt to stage the body or the evidence in some way), because doing something like that could easily create contradictory forensic evidence, which presumably a federal ME would be able to detect.

Agreed. I think there's a big difference in how the body would react to trauma pre- and post-mortem.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:54 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

The original picture appears to be gone now, so I can't link to the actual tweet, but here's a donotlink to some kind of Twitter-scraping site with the mannequin tweet.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:56 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Agreed. I think there's a big difference in how the body would react to trauma pre- and post-mortem.

But what happens if we finally get results and he has gunshot residue on his hands? Police preserve chain of evidence so that we can trust that there was no funny business, but if we can't trust the police, that chain of evidence is worthless. Scody, I'm really glad to hear it might not be that easy. Does anyone else know what kind of forensics can be done by the federal autopsy/investigators to detect any tampering with the body/evidence?
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:02 AM on August 17, 2014

dhartung: “Here's a screenshot taken from MSNBC as SWAT cleared the storefront of threatening mannequins. (I believe this was at the time that Tim Pool was narrating "They seem to think someone is in this building.")”

I was watching the raw footage on the MSNBC website, so I didn't get any commentary. The entire episode was caught on tape and it's comical — or ya know, would be if it weren't so terrifying — from start to end. I mean, they deploy echelon left and advance on the storefront like they're assaulting a pillbox. Buddy-dude on the right tries to force open the door by kicking it. Shitwagon in the middle keeps covering the mannequin. The rest of the team kind of slinks away when they realize what's actually happen.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:02 AM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

Artw: Though Ferguson PD are clearly putting together a defence rather than an investigation I'm thinking even they would stop short of something that blatantly criminal. We'll see.

Staging crime scenes is pretty much SOP for bad cops, and everything we have seen about the FPD says they are very bad cops. Though they also don't seem to be particularly smart ones, so I suppose we can hope they've made mistakes in their coverup.
posted by tavella at 11:11 AM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

But what happens if we finally get results and he has gunshot residue on his hands?

If a gun was fired at him at point blank range he most likely has gun residue all over his body. I don't believe those tests are nearly as accurate as the television likes to present them.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:12 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Twitter co-founder, Ferguson native Jack Dorsey's parents at the QT.

Does anyone else know what kind of forensics can be done by the federal autopsy/investigators to detect any tampering with the body/evidence?

An autopsy is by its nature invasive and destructive, so this will be exceedingly difficult to determine. I'm pretty much psychologically prepared for duelling autopsy interpretations.

From the LA Times piece above, more accounts that Brown seemed utterly casual before the convenience store incident, although it stopped short of confirming that he had told people he was going "to buy cigarillos", something you wouldn't be likely to say if you were planning a robbery. But he was well-known in the neighborhood and probably known well enough to local stores, so the question remains what his motive would have been for stealing so close to home.
posted by dhartung at 11:23 AM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

But what happens if we finally get results and he has gunshot residue on his hands?

As Bookhouse says, they (the federal ME) would check to see if it's consistent with other evidence -- for example, if the residue is present (or not) elsewhere on his body in a way that would be expected based on the scenario that the cops try to present. Also, they left his body in the street, face down, for several hours -- this means that lividity (the pooling of the blood after death due to gravity) is present in his body in a specific way, which might be of use in determining any staging of the body after the fact.
posted by scody at 11:28 AM on August 17, 2014

Well, it's taken eight days, but my Facebook Usual Suspects are finally on it. Didn't give two shits about a teenager murdered in broad daylight. Incensed about the release of the photo of the cop, and linking to obvious bullshit as if it were true. Looks like they're going to go with "Brown was hopped up on the goofballs" which is why he was able to rush the cop even after being shot multiple times. [WARNING: Donotlinks to fascist, crypto-racist bullshit.]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:44 AM on August 17, 2014

Some of the Rap Genius folks (and, I'm told, some hip-hop Redditors, but I don't truck with those cats) are talking about this Soundcloud page (I make no claims about its authenticity), and guessing that, sooner or later, it'll break bigger.
posted by box at 11:51 AM on August 17, 2014

Aggh yes, my husband just called out someone for linking to that nonsense this morning on Facebook, ob1quixote.

Another couple we know linked to this New York Times story this morning, though, and I also saw this L.A. Times story with more good background info.

The part in the New York Times story about last December's Ferguson-Florissant School District school-board vote is key—the only person on the board who voted (twice, even) against the list of charges against African-American Superintendent Art McCoy was one of my high-school math teachers, Paul Schroeder. I remember being upset about McCoy's treatment myself at the time. I don't feel like he was given a fair chance. He resigned because he felt like people's focus was beginning to be on the board's fight with him, rather than on educating students. The list of charges against him was never made public, which I think also frustrated people. It think it also made people suspect he was being ousted because of his active recruitment of students from the failing Normandy and Riverview Gardens districts, so that plays into this, too. Someone my family has known for a long time in Florissant, Donna Thurman, is the African-American woman who made it onto the board in the ensuing vote, which is awesome—but that doesn't make McCoy's treatment less frustrating.

One of the friends who posted the New York Times article asked how people's reaction has been in Florissant, and I thought back over the past week to summarize what I'd seen.

It's hard for me to say for sure, 'cause I'm only seeing my Facebook friends' responses (kimothy and I were at the Mills last night, but we didn't have a chance to engage anyone about it). In general, as noted upthread, I've actually been fairly pleased by the thoughtfulness and sensitivity of the friends and family who grew up with me in North County who are speaking out about wanting justice for Mike Brown and expressing support for the protesters. A lot of my friends are free-Internet geeks, so their focus has been on the civil-rights and police-brutality implications. A lot of people have also been sharing videos and photos of things that make Ferguson a great place to live and/or peaceful, focusing on that aspect. That said, I feel like a lot of my acquaintances, both black and white, are a bit conspicuous in their silence—though it's also hard to know for sure without going to their individual pages, since Facebook has mostly been showing me the same people over and over in my news feed for some time now.

Some of the more prolific commenters in the last few days have focused a lot on the looting, though, and the police's response (or perceived lack thereof) to it. One acquaintance who lives in Ferguson is definitely in that camp—but she also has three young children at home, so that may color her perspective. Friends and family have definitely expressed their concern to me that crime related to these events would continue to stream north along West Florissant Avenue and New Halls Ferry Road (and I've worried about it myself, since we have property up there between two businesses that were looted last Sunday, as well as a little farther up the road). In general, people I know in North County haven't been sleeping very well or very much in the past week—both because they've had concerns about safety and because they've wanted to stay awake to bear witness to any police brutality that might occur.

Oh, and the other concern people have had up there, as I also mentioned upthread, has been about open access to information—my mom and multiple friends have said that their Charter cable completely cut out local news stations during the initial protests and looting last weekend, which some (including Ferguson Committeewoman Patricia Bynes) have suggested was a deliberate measure for "public safety," much like when San Francisco cut cellphone access on BART during public protests there in 2011. There have been reports that AT&T cell service and Charter cable Internet service have also been throttled in affected areas—people have been unable to get video to load on and off this past week. So that's definitely a concern, and I wish more people were talking about it and following up on it.
posted by limeonaire at 11:56 AM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

A friend of mine posted a video from Larry Elder about "mass race card hysteria" on Facebook this morning... I can't even get through one minute of it because he seriously starts talking about how we have a black president now, so racism isn't really a problem.
posted by palomar at 11:57 AM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

A positive gunshot residue test only means that the tested surface was in proximity to a fired gun. If I'm a foot from you with a gun pointed at you and you put your hands up when I shoot you then guess what? Your GSR hand stubs might be positive. If I plant a gun in your cooling dead hands then I have quite a self-defense case don't I?

Conversely, a negative test doesn't necessarily exonerate anyone because what if the test subject wore gloves when he fires and you test his bare hands? Of course it will be negative.
posted by Renoroc at 12:01 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, they're not making up that video with that statement by someone at the scene (whether that unpictured person was an actual eyewitness or repeating/misinterpreting something someone else told him is not possible to determine). It's difficult to come up with a rational explanation for that narrative, as well as to reconcile it with other reported eyewitness accounts. If there are other accounts that are contradictory we have not heard them, but this isn't something the cops cooked up in the last week -- it was being said right there at the scene. As I've said, neither of the extreme narratives, including the one apparently preferred in this thread, makes a lot of sense to me. They're both too neat, for one thing.

If the cop saw cigars in his hand, they would have been dropped or tossed at some point, wouldn't they? Any evidence of cigarillos, boxes, or anything like that in any of the crime scene photos that anyone has seen? That would sort of be critical to back up the (reported) police account.
posted by dhartung at 12:04 PM on August 17, 2014

New RW meme: Holder is searching for an "activist medical examiner to give him the result he wants".

(BTW, no need to use the donotlink service on MeFi, which implements nofollow. Unless, I guess, you want to disguise the source of the traffic they get. But you don't help their PageRank by linking here.)
posted by dhartung at 12:48 PM on August 17, 2014

We don't actually implement nofollow by default for links in posts and comments.
posted by cortex at 12:58 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Well, they're not making up that video with that statement by someone at the scene (whether that unpictured person was an actual eyewitness or repeating/misinterpreting something someone else told him is not possible to determine).

They are making up what is being said in that video by the man talking in the background(@6:28/6:29) of the video. I listened to it. The conversation in question has been transcribed incorrectly.

Link to the Video (WARNING- Graphic Content)
posted by yertledaturtle at 12:59 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

WaPo: ‘I just kept asking: Why am I being arrested for sitting in my aunt’s driveway?’: Hampton, who owns a T-shirt-printing business, says they discussed just standing in the yard but worried it might look as if they were loitering passersby. So the trio went to his car to smoke, figuring that a private car on a private lawn would not fall under the curfew.

Instead, he says, the police ordered all three of them into the police truck, taking them first to a nearby command post.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:00 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

J. Cole - Be Free
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:04 PM on August 17, 2014

Michael Brown Remembrance Service (live right now)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on August 17, 2014

dhartung: “Well, they're not making up that video with that statement by someone at the scene[…]”

I saw the video on YouTube yesterday, and heard some of that story being told in the background and didn't think much of it. The video itself is gruesome, so i won't link to it directly and advise people not to seek it out unless you're prepared for that.

I just went back and listened to it through my good studio headphones with my eyes closed. I don't think the person caught in the audio is saying what the people at IJ Review or Conservative Treehouse think he's saying. It sounded to me like the story was consistent with the eyewitness accounts we've already heard.

Aside from the problem they appear to have with the vernacular I believe they've made transcription errors. For example, what's transcribed as "dude kept comin' towards the police" sounds like "dude kept comin' towards homie" to me. They also chose just the words and phrases that are consistent with their desired narrative. They leave out the part just before that where the person speaking says (paraphrasing), "When you heard [those shots], the police was at least 10 yards from him."

Anyway, I don't want to start a audio analysis derail. Off camera hearsay doesn't change what Tiffany Mitchell saw.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:13 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

RT @tiffaynay: "Racism in America is dead"
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:17 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Golden Eternity... How do I get a look at what the pictures in your link say? Writing is way too small for me to see.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:18 PM on August 17, 2014

You can right-click on top of the image (it's just one single image) and do the equivalent of "Open Image in New Tab". Click on the resulting new-tab image to zoom in, if necessary.
posted by shortfuse at 1:21 PM on August 17, 2014

That was a pretty great speech by Captain Johnson at the remembrance service, saying a lot without exactly saying it, you know?
posted by StopMakingSense at 1:25 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

shortfuse: “You can right-click on top of the image (it's just one single image) and do the equivalent of "Open Image in New Tab". Click on the resulting new-tab image to zoom in, if necessary.”

Direct link to the image, but, before you click, steel yourself to stare directly into the hatred some of Our Fellow Americans don't even bother to secret in their hearts. They post it for everyone in the world to see. Jesus wept.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:27 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

cortex: Duh. Dunno why I said that. My bad.

It does seem to include discussion of a foot chase of some kind, but doesn't seem to start (as an account) with any of the physical struggle seen by others. And it doesn't make any more sense to me (charging cops with guns? when already wounded?). Regardless, ob1quixote, I did pretty much agree it's off-camera hearsay and of dubious investigatory value (as a recording). All I'm trying to do is underscore that there may be witness accounts that don't conform.

Jay Smooth has posted excerpts from his show yesterday [fb][sc] "The Problem With Police is Not Bad Apples, It's a Poisoned Apple Tree".
posted by dhartung at 1:49 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

RT @TefPoe: I have confirmation the guy shot with real bullets last night was indeed shot by police we have it on film
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:00 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

dhartung: “All I'm trying to do is underscore that there may be witness accounts that don't conform.”

Agreed. It's just killing me that people on those websites are taking an unidentified, off-camera account more seriously than the three eyewitnesses who have identified themselves and told remarkably similar stories.

Anyway, on the subject the Unity Service going on right now, Rev. Al Sharpton just said this [Rush Transcription]:

We have had enough! And anybody that is going to be taken seriously in this country needs to address policing and Michael Brown. I heard some of the Senators talking, but where are the leading candidates for President? Jeb Bush? Hillary Clinton? Don't get laryngitis on this issue. Nobody can go to the White House unless they stop by our house and talk about policing!

posted by ob1quixote at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Another "no justice no peace" sign.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

From Amy Nelson's twitter feed:

Outside agitators show up in Ferguson.
Ferguson Market & Liquor reopens.

posted by nangar at 2:35 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Here's Captain Johnson's speech at the remembrance service just now (not great quality video, but gets it across).
posted by jessicapierce at 2:40 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Some thoughts from (always cynical) billmon:
Everybody knows the truth: If protestors in #Ferguson had been peaceful & obeyed police instructions, media would've completely ignored them

The real issue is whether the means of protest/resistance are deliberately chosen, and whether they advance the goals of the movement. (2)

#Ferguson is a battle, & battles have been lost (even on edge of victory) because 1 side or other stopped fighting to loot enemy's camp. (3)

Whether first night of looting helped or hurt the movement is debatable. (Old PR saying: "There is no such thing as bad publicity.") (4)

But right now the looters & the guys throwing off rounds are a way bigger threat to the goals of the protest than the cops. (5)

If the protestors can't get organized enough, or don't have the muscle to get the violence under control (emphasis on that last word)...(6)

Then IMO they'd be better off obeying the curfew & otherwise trying 2 stay inside the law (even if the "law" is just some cop's say so.) (7)

Yeah, I don't want to police legitimate anger, but I have felt the looting and vandalism are bad enough image-wise, but the real prospect of serious violence has been lingering and could destroy any forward momentum the movement has garnered thus far. Locally, there seems to be a growing sense of community and connection, and I'm very glad to see that, of course. Related:

One thing I'm glad to see:
@mandystlpd: Sharpton says 12 percent voter turnout is an insult to your children.

#Ferguson Sharpton says the people who are mad now weren't mad 3 weeks ago and didn't vote in election.

@trymainelee: Rev. said Ferguson 70% black, but no blacks on school board. Only 3 black cops. "Michael Brown's gonna change this town." Thousands applaude

I've been thinking that the somewhat-gerrymandered, somewhat-inertia-mandered governance of the town has really been a key part of what got us here. The city council is divided into three two-alder wards, which is a structure that the Voting Rights Act was involved in eliminating in the South -- but Missouri was never under the VRA. (This is called a "submerged" district structure, in which minority votes are diluted.) I mean, really -- with 67% black population, the expected council distribution would be four of six seats held by blacks, not one. Changing the police department is something that wouldn't happen overnight but as I've said poorer and smaller departments do have disadvantages in recruiting black officers. But if the chief had to answer to a majority black council I really don't think a lot of what has happened the last week would have been possible.

Another question I have is about the member of Congress from the area, William Lacy Clay Jr. -- who seems progressive and accomplished enough but was mostly absent this last week. He has held the seat since his father died, and his father held it from 1969 to 2001 -- so it's been in the hands of one family for 45 years. I wonder whether locally he might be challenged by someone with more, well, mojo like Maria Chappelle-Nadal or Jamilah Nasheed (or Antonio French). I'm just thinking that Clay may well be adequate but change needs a vanguard, and I'd be happy to contribute especially to French or Chapelle-Nadal if they were running for higher office; I think their voices are needed.
posted by dhartung at 2:41 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

Ken White of Popehat talks about how Brown's robbery could narrowly matter legally and how it's almost certainly about polluting a jury pool.
posted by phearlez at 2:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

You can buy a print (also mugs, coasters, t-shirts) of the shot where eyeFLOODpanties was throwing a tear gas canister while wearing an American flag shirt. Contender for photo of the year, yo.

Various announcements about college scholarships for the three *-siblings of Mike Brown. Have not seen who is underwriting? This fundraiser I linked earlier has now raised $10K (half from the Boys & Girls Club of St. Louis). And Judge Mathis apparently is giving the family another $10K of his own money.

There is an effort by St. Louis County Executive Dooley to pressure District Attorney McCulloch to appoint a special prosecutor. The DA has been in office for 20 years and works closely with police support organizations; he is the son of a cop who was killed on the job in 1964.
posted by dhartung at 3:04 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

From the Popehat link: "Here, the robbery may be relevant to state of mind. At least as I understand the facts"

Bingo. People dismissing as irrelevant robbery that happened TEN MINUTES prior to a fatal encounter with the police are being either naive or malicious. The cop's allegation that Brown reached for his weapon (not supported by the previous description of Brown as a gentle kid on his way to college) becomes immediately plausible.
posted by gertzedek at 3:16 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Ken White of Popehat talks about how Brown's robbery could narrowly matter legally and how it's almost certainly about polluting a jury pool.

It'll all make sense once the trial is moved to Osage County.
posted by Talez at 3:17 PM on August 17, 2014

Mark Steyn: "Cigars, but not close." Brace yourselves, folks; the incorrigible and often awful conservative Mark Steyn has written a column that is rational, thoughtful, and even stirring at times.

"So, when the police are dressed like combat troops, it's not a fashion faux pas, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of who they are... Long before the teargassing begins and the bullets start flying, the way these guys talk is the first indication of how the remorseless militarization has corroded the soul of American policing."
posted by koeselitz at 3:20 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

People dismissing as irrelevant robbery that happened TEN MINUTES prior to a fatal encounter with the police are being either naive or malicious. The cop's allegation that Brown reached for his weapon (not supported by the previous description of Brown as a gentle kid on his way to college) becomes immediately plausible.

I still haven't seen evidence of a robbery. Have you?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

The cop's allegation that Brown reached for his weapon (not supported by the previous description of Brown as a gentle kid on his way to college) becomes immediately plausible.

The problem is the cop's whole story, to the extent we've heard a complee one, makes no real sense. Multiple witnesses have Wilson shooting Brown from a distance, and probably at least once in the back. It's going to be very difficult to have a story of a struggle that explains multiple gunshots from a distance.
posted by crayz at 3:24 PM on August 17, 2014

There's also no evidence of a struggle either. OR even physical contact not mediated by a gun between Wilson and Brown.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:25 PM on August 17, 2014

The cop's allegation that Brown reached for his weapon (not supported by the previous description of Brown as a gentle kid on his way to college) becomes immediately plausible.

You present this as fact rather than your personal opinion. In my mind, the theft makes it less plausible that Brown reached for the weapon. A person who has just taken something of minor value would likely want to (a) avoid detection, or, if that's not possible, (b) minimize the nature of the offense so as to minimize the punishment. Brown's goal would have been to get away, which makes it less likely he would want to engage with the police (possibly why he told the officer he and Johnson were almost home, if witness accounts are accurate - basically asking the officer to move along and let him pass). When it became clear that the officer was not letting him just go home, why in God's name would Brown have *escalated* his crime from a minor theft to possibly attempted murder or worse, which is how going for an officer's gun would be perceived? It's not like Brown killed someone, he stole a pack of rillos! To me it seems much more likely that he would have tried to toss or drop the cigars and run, and that the officer (in a cloud of authoritarian rage) shot Brown because Brown failed to obey him.
posted by sallybrown at 3:26 PM on August 17, 2014 [14 favorites]

Never thought I'd say this, but: that Mark Steyn column was mostly really good. Great part at the end:

*NOTE: Several readers have queried my use of the term "shoplifter", insisting that this was a "strongarm robbery", the phrase du jour. It's not clear whether, legally speaking, this was any kind of robbery, in the sense of a prosecutable crime: The store owner did not report any theft and did not volunteer the video as evidence. Instead, the Ferguson PD went to a judge to get a court order to make the store owner cough it up on the grounds that it might contain something useful to them.

And then the chief says he had no choice but to release it because he was getting Freedom of Information requests for it. Which makes even less sense...

posted by Sticherbeast at 3:30 PM on August 17, 2014 [23 favorites]

'Protest is outside headquarters NBC affiliate @ksdknews, which broadcast footage of Darren Wilson's home"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:43 PM on August 17, 2014

There are perhaps 125 people at this pro-Darren Wilson protest. 124 white people and Martin Baker, aged 44
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:44 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I know it's been discussed a lot already, but I still can't get my head around how the situation was supposed to have played out, I mean I can't visualize it in a way that makes sense. The eyewitness account in the msnbc link from the fpp itself has the officer in a truck, and then a police car... and I can almost picture it as a truck, but if it's a car, barely... He's pulled up beside them, bounces the door off Brown trying to open it, and then reaches through the window to grab him, then points the pistol- through the window presumably?

If it's a normal police car, Brown is tall enough that I can't see the officer getting any leverage on him, he'd be reaching straight up, and I don't see how he even gets the gun out if it isn't already drawn... if it's a truck, well maybe.

And of course the whole 'reaching for the officer's weapon' thing- well, if he's pointing it at him from inches away, it's a thing I can see doing, if you think it's going to save your life. Otherwise though the whole 'he shoplifted something and now he's basically Scarface' scenario seems really unlikely to me.

Of course eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, even without presumed prejudices or agendas. But that said, I'm giving the cop's version way less of the benefit of the doubt, because what is he going to say? 'He's a big black dude and I panicked?'

If there are clearer accounts of this or I'm missing facts that have been linked previously, I'm sorry I missed them but I'd appreciate having them pointed out again...
posted by hap_hazard at 3:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

hap_hazard, there's the Twitter account (I know) that says Mike was running away when he was shot.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:50 PM on August 17, 2014

Has anyone asked the clerk at the convenience store about what happened? Because I just recently saw the video of the counter, where he takes the pack of cigarillos off the counter, then leans in and it looks like he's talking to the clerk for a minute, but a display case blocks the view. This is obviously just idle speculation, but it looked to me like he had intended to just buy them. That point in the transaction, for those of y'all who don't regularly buy tobacco products, is the point where they usually ask for id. I could easily see how he didn't have that and, in stupid kid fashion, just grabbed them and went to walk out and drama ensued.
posted by Weeping_angel at 3:55 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

I could easily see how he didn't have that

Pretty sure he doesn't; one of the news articles says he doesn't have a drivers license, and his permit is expired.
posted by inigo2 at 4:05 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

dhartung: "You can buy a print (also mugs, coasters, t-shirts) of the shot where eyeFLOODpanties was throwing a tear gas canister while wearing an American flag shirt."

@eyeFLOODpanties: Please consider not purchasing shirts of my image. None of that money is going to me or the #MikeBrown family.
posted by Lexica at 4:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

I think the "he wasn't gonna steal the cigarillos" argument is probably a losing one but the thing is that it doesn't matter. Stealing a couple cigarillos is not a capital crime and you don't shoot somebody for it.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

This is obviously just idle speculation, but it looked to me like he had intended to just buy them. That point in the transaction, for those of y'all who don't regularly buy tobacco products, is the point where they usually ask for id. I could easily see how he didn't have that and, in stupid kid fashion, just grabbed them and went to walk out and drama ensued.

That's how I read the situation as well. My speculation is that he didn't have ID on him, even though he was old enough to purchase tobacco. He was a very young looking 18, so I can see how a store clerk might not take him at his word. He may have had the typical teenager "I'm old enough to buy these, here is your damn money, I'm outta here" attitude.

This could have also come in to play later when he was stopped by the cops. Not having your ID on you is a sure fire way to get hassled by the police, especially if you're "walking while black."
posted by Shouraku at 4:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I just looked at that set of tweets again and see that it apparently is a truck, if it's the same vehicle in the background of the pictures.

I thought though that the presumptive story was that at that point he'd already been shot, after some kind of grappling incident, and I was also trying to integrate the 'he shot himself through the car door' story that's apparently being floated, which is the least physically plausible part yet.

Still can't see any of that part working unless he already has the gun drawn when he rolls up, which seems... like not the way you'd be trained to approach that kind of thing if you thought someone was actually dangerous.

I guess I can't have good answers because it doesn't seem like they're available, and it really doesn't matter- it could have been anywhere on a scale from actual malice to just incompetent policing + a cascading set of errors in judgement. But that's not even the main part of this story any more.
posted by hap_hazard at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2014

I'm not saying it matters legally if he intended to steal them, but as far as the optics and public perception go (which shouldn't matter, but unfortunately do), there's a world of difference between "kid does ill-advised dumb kid thing" and "thug robs convenience store."

This is my concern. He's being portrayed as a thug that ran into the store with an intent to steal, but if you watch the whole video as opposed to just the snippets that the press are showing, it appears more like a tobacco ID check altercation. Really benign stuff that would be worth a shoplifting charge at most.
posted by Shouraku at 4:21 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

FYI, this is the address for condolence cards or donations to Mike's fund. via the store his mother works at.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:28 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

The cop's allegation that Brown reached for his weapon (not supported by the previous description of Brown as a gentle kid on his way to college) becomes immediately plausible.

i'm also unconvinced on this one - as Popehat says, it will probably be judged admissable, but, while I can see an argument that someone who had just possibly committed a minor misdemeanor might want to evade the police, the idea that it makes someone likely to try to grab a policeman's gun, and then run 35 feet away from the police officers, apparently in order to slingshot around a local gravity well and hurtle back towards them, does not seem like a logical inference.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:31 PM on August 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

as Popehat says, it will probably be judged admissable

I'm glad we had a lawyer to tell us that because otherwise how could we have known?
posted by Justinian at 4:34 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Really benign stuff that would be worth a shoplifting charge at most.

i knew someone who did something similar with a 12 pack of beer - he didn't have his ID, so he slapped down enough money to pay for it and left

the police showed up at his door later and told him he was coming with them

well, the guy told the story to the judge, so the judge told him he could paint a room in the courthouse and it would be square - and handed him his change

i guess things are handled a lot differently in some jurisdictions
posted by pyramid termite at 4:38 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

pt, what color is your acquaintance's skin?
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:41 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

white
posted by pyramid termite at 4:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

@HalDockins

Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. to cover all costs of Michael Brown's Memorial Service and Funeral. Outstanding.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:53 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

Did you need to ask, PG?

@eyeFLOODpanties: Please consider not purchasing shirts of my image. None of that money is going to me or the #MikeBrown family.

Which is how photography of public acts works, sorry dude.
I had the first experience this year of having the cops called on me because I was taking photographs of people -- their cars, really -- in public.

I could easily see how he didn't have that and, in stupid kid fashion, just grabbed them and went to walk out and drama ensued.

...and did he leave his money? Which could explain why the store didn't call in a robbery, and has been reluctant to come forward, as this could expose them to a licensing infraction. This makes a lot more sense now (I had not heard that his ID was expired).

How does this jibe with Johnson's claim (through Crump) that the cigarillo thing was a "prank"? Still, I hate being out in hand-wavy land like this.

the idea that it makes someone likely to try to grab a policeman's gun

I didn't buy this before and if the supposition above is valid, I buy it even less now.
posted by dhartung at 4:58 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

There are perhaps 125 people at this pro-Darren Wilson protest. 124 white people and Martin Baker, aged 44

...who, as it turns out.... calls himself "a proud Frederick Douglass Republican". Have fun with his Issues page.
posted by dhartung at 5:03 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm glad people are questioning that store footage. It has never sat right with me that we have no idea what they're saying to each other. Or that the clerk hasn't explained what happened yet (days later). We have limited information - just visuals - but the limited information is designed to make us want to pretend like we know what happened. And the predisposition of many people to see a big black man as a wanton thug, is being taken advantage of here. Think of the Rashomon effect. We imagine we know everything but we don't.
posted by naju at 5:15 PM on August 17, 2014 [15 favorites]

People make comments all the time on this website, lawyers and non lawyers alike all claiming to be certain of what the law/court will allow.

(I think the joke was that you didn't need legal counsel to know that the police get a disproportionate amount of benefit in edge cases, not that comments were intrinsically worthless.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:18 PM on August 17, 2014

Think of the Rashomon effect. We imagine we know everything but we don't.

This is a damn near perfect explanation of what the police are attempting, in my opinion. There is a lot of liberty being taken with diction. When you say "convenience store robbery," you’re insinuating that there was criminal intent on a larger scale than "shoplifting." And neither term conveys that Brown seems to have attempted to pay for the tobacco. If anything, it would be a crime of passion (shoplifting of passion?).
posted by Shouraku at 5:34 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

St. Louis Rapper Tef Poe Shares His Experiences in Ferguson, Missouri as Protests Continue
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:50 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

RT @LizPeinadoSTL: "If I got my hands on my head, please don't shoot me dead" #ferguson #dontshoot
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:21 PM on August 17, 2014

Missouri authorities tell ACLU that people can record police in Ferguson
posted by XMLicious at 6:29 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Charles Johnson has of course burnt his bridges, but he tweeted this:
Just a reminder: Ferguson PD chief went on Fox News, Ferguson mayor went on Newsmax. This should be a major clue to what's going on there.

I wanted to share this storify on black-on-black crime by Canadian journalist @HeerJeet, with these two central points:
Purpose of black-on-black meme: Only time to talk about black victims of crime is when need to deflect attention from a police shooting
and this side tweet:
The logic is frightening. "You victimize each other, therefore you must be docile when we victimize you."

Gene Denby (NYT, NPR) @GeeDee215 also notes in a series of tweets:
Some interesting data on black-on-black crime, which is always invoked in cases like #mikebrown #ferguson

"Black on black homicides have decreased by 67% in 20 years, a sharper rate of decrease than white on white homicide."

"According to FBI statistics 7361 Blacks were killed by fellow African-Americans in 1991. In 2011, it dropped dramatically to 2447. "

"Among black youth, rates of robbery and serious property offenses are the lowest in more than 40 years. "

via: http://t.co/bAMI1vn9fh

He went on to tweet an apposite column by Charles Cooke at NR, but I'll leave that to you.
posted by dhartung at 6:34 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Melissa Harris-Perry on the relationship between the Dred Scott case and the murder of Michael Brown: "No rights which the white man was bound to respect"
posted by scody at 6:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Relevant to the store video strategy, is psychologist Daniel Kahneman on how the intuitive/emotional brain, what he calls "System 1", works:

System 1 excels at constructing the best possible story that incorporates ideas currently activated, but it does not (cannot) allow for information it does not have.

The measure of success for System 1 is the coherence of the story it manages to create. The amount and quality of the data on which the story is based are largely irrelevant. When information is scarce, which is a common occurrence, System 1 operates as a machine for jumping to conclusions. Consider the following: “Will Mindik be a good leader? She is intelligent and strong…” An answer quickly came to your mind, and it was yes. You picked the best answer based on the very limited information available, but you jumped the gun. What if the next two adjectives were corrupt and cruel?

Take note of what you did not do as you briefly thought of Mindik as a leader. You did not start by asking, “What would I need to know before I formed an opinion about the quality of someone’s leadership?” System 1 got to work on its own from the first adjective: intelligent is good, intelligent and strong is very good. This is the best story that can be constructed from two adjectives, and System 1 delivered it with great cognitive ease. The story will be revised if new information comes in (such as Mindik is corrupt), but there is no waiting and no subjective discomfort.

posted by AceRock at 6:56 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

"Tell them to remove the damn tanks," Mr. Holder told his deputies on Thursday, according to a law-enforcement official, referring to heavily armored vehicles the local police had used.

"Federal Authorities Wade Deeper Into Teen's Death," Devlin Barrett and Ben Kesling, Wall Street Journal
posted by sallybrown at 7:03 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Wow, even at the WSJ, don't read the comments. Thanks for being a pillar of rational, my fellow mefites.
posted by dejah420 at 7:12 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ugh, wow, those WSJ comments are ridiculous.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:17 PM on August 17, 2014

Tear gas being fired again.
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:20 PM on August 17, 2014

Joel D. Anderson
‏@blackink12
I got tear gas in my face. They didn't even give me warning so I could move my car. Sorry, Budget.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:22 PM on August 17, 2014

Just a reminder: Ferguson PD chief went on Fox News, Ferguson mayor went on Newsmax. This should be a major clue to what's going on there.

Ugh. I hate to be reminded that whether its ok for the police to murder unarmed black kids is a partisan issue.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [14 favorites]

8 year old hit with tear gas
posted by AceRock at 7:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Tear gas being fired 'near media staging area'. That's not suspicious at all.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:24 PM on August 17, 2014

Police just widened cordon outside #ferguson, threatening to arrest anyone within a mile.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on August 17, 2014

Greg Thomas: The police are shooting tear gas at media, children, the elderly. They need to be all arrested. NOW.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:26 PM on August 17, 2014 [13 favorites]

Why are the police doing this now? I thought that the enlightened highway patrol had taken over, and they had put a stop to all this nonsense. What's going on?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:27 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

@RobertKlemko
I got tear-gassed good. Cop grabs me, drags me to truck and hands me water. "You media??" "YES" "hahahahaha Welcome to Ferguson!"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:29 PM on August 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

The pictures on Twitter are just surreal, do not look like America at all
posted by desjardins at 7:30 PM on August 17, 2014

I got tear-gassed good. Cop grabs me, drags me to truck and hands me water. "You media??" "YES" "hahahahaha Welcome to Ferguson!"

no seriously America what even, what the hell is this
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:32 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

Antonio French's vine (stream? feed?) gives a good sense of the mood
posted by desjardins at 7:33 PM on August 17, 2014

The sad thing is that looking back at our history on racial issues, this IS America.
posted by DRoll at 7:34 PM on August 17, 2014 [16 favorites]

You're absolutely right; I was looking at it through my own narrow (white) lens. The images are shocking to me, but the state-sponsored violence is definitely in keeping with our nation's history.
posted by desjardins at 7:37 PM on August 17, 2014

Jesus fucking fuck already
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:38 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Greg Thomas again: They have fucking mounted machine guns on trucks aimed at children and injured people. FUCK ALL OF THIS!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:39 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

live feed - just for anyone that may not have it. Holy shit.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:40 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I just can't wrap my head around the decisions being made here. Setting aside that they are even using tear gas to begin with, doing so with no apparent provocation, so close to cordoned in media crews, and with the FBI in town. It's like they've decided they are just going to go down laughing on a sinking ship.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:41 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yep, it's the St. Louis County cops back in action. But why?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:41 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

They are using the LRAD again Live Stream
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:41 PM on August 17, 2014

Well, this just goes to show Ron Johnson's approach doesn't work once you totally abandon it and go back to doing really, really stupid stuff.
posted by uosuaq at 7:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

Well, this just goes to show Ron Johnson's approach doesn't work once you totally abandon it and go back to doing really, really stupid stuff.
posted by uosuaq at 10:42 PM on August 17 [+] [!]

They have to prove that the their militarized behavior is necessary to contain the black mob, otherwise the last week of video makes them look like bigoted monsters
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:45 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

That LRAD makes the livestream almost unwatchable. I can't imagine it in person.
posted by StopMakingSense at 7:45 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Robert Klemko ‏@RobertKlemko
Just spoke with Capt Johnson. They've quarantined me and two other journos. Not allowed to view Florissant. "They tried to take the command. Capt Johnson is now arresting us."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:46 PM on August 17, 2014

Woman in wheelchair speeding away from gas
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

So who is in charge tonight? Did it go back into a nightly rotation?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:47 PM on August 17, 2014

The chat comments on that livestream are unbearable.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:47 PM on August 17, 2014

So...that just happened. In the US.
posted by uosuaq at 7:48 PM on August 17, 2014

Who the hell are these anarchists?
posted by fizzix at 7:48 PM on August 17, 2014

I am sad. I am furious. I feel impotent. I fear for the residents of Ferguson. I hope against all hope that no one else gets hurt.

But I also hope, perhaps naively that this is a Rosa Parks moment. A spark that ignites change.
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on August 17, 2014

Rob Crilly ‏@robcrilly (reporter for The Telegraph)
I have been arrested and am being walked away from the area
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:52 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Logistically speaking, who has the authority to arrest these fucks?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:52 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Robert Klemko:
Capt Johnson is now arresting us.
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:53 PM on August 17, 2014

Apparently some of the reporters have been let go after being arrested, after pleading with the Captain Johnson that they had obeyed every instruction.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:53 PM on August 17, 2014

How does one square Gov. Nixon's assertion that the decision made by the Ferguson Chief of Police to release the alleged shoplifting video caused the escalation in violence the other night, with the decision to bring back the St Louis County Police, who caused the violence in previous nights, tonight?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:54 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

I'm watching the livestream but it's very hard to tell what's going on.
posted by bq at 7:55 PM on August 17, 2014

Robert Klemko:
Capt Johnson is now arresting us.

Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss, apparently.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:55 PM on August 17, 2014

did the guy on the livestream just say the cops told him to stop filming and leave his camera?
posted by desjardins at 7:56 PM on August 17, 2014

Yes
posted by pearlybob at 7:57 PM on August 17, 2014

So much for the idea of there being any non-awful cops, I guess.
posted by Artw at 7:59 PM on August 17, 2014

6 cops approaching the livestream guy...
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:59 PM on August 17, 2014

I'm glad he refused, or said yes to the cop and didn't do it. Looks like he got closer.m
posted by desjardins at 8:00 PM on August 17, 2014

Akilah Johnson @akjohnson1922 · Boston Globe Reporter
Cop just told photog to "back the fuck up or ill shot."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:00 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

It's like they've decided they are just going to go down laughing on a sinking ship.

It's impossible for me to understand what they're thinking at this point, after so many days of this. It's like, if the cops really wanted to demonstrate how scared they are, and how little they feel themselves to be in control, they couldn't pick a better way to do it.

It's beyond even malcompetence at this point... I know that the wackier rightists these days can never make up their mind whether Obama's tryng to impose a police state, or to get all the young scary black people to rise up in anger... well, if one was trying to accomplish the latter, doing exactly what the cops are doing in Ferguson seems like a pretty good way to go about it. Shoot nonlethal projectiles at peaceful protestors, teargas children and NYT reporters, just keep doing that, see what happens... (I am sure that nobody's doing that on purpose, but I seriously don't know what they think they are doing.)

I mean, fuck, I am not a violent person at all, and don't recommend it in general, but if police were tear-gassing my children, I think I might start thinking differently.

What an appalling cluster of fuck.
posted by hap_hazard at 8:00 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Was that real gunshots just now?
posted by zug at 8:01 PM on August 17, 2014

There's a little button on the livestream player with left and right arrows that widen the video and hide the racist bot-generated comments.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:01 PM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]

http://www.defense-technology.com/pdfs/specs/Han-Ball.pdf
posted by bq at 8:02 PM on August 17, 2014

Jack-booted thugs.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:03 PM on August 17, 2014

This will end when Ferguson has been protected and served to the point of being a smoking crater and not before, I guess.

When it's a big fucking hole with a fence around I guess it will be safe for Darren Wilson to come back and patrol it. Job for life!
posted by Artw at 8:03 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

Is the "official media staging" area on the other side of the line or back behind with live stream?
posted by pearlybob at 8:05 PM on August 17, 2014

Also- how do the police not have a full-time fucking media liason trying to make them look like anything but fucking Batman villains?

And- I can't source the thought but I think it's ca. Abby Hoffman times, but really obviously true here and now: all riots are police riots.
posted by hap_hazard at 8:05 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Autopsy Shows Michael Brown Was Struck at Least 6 Times
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:06 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

New York Times: New (preliminary, privately conducted) autopsy shows Brown was shot 6 times, twice in the head.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:06 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Autopsy Shows Michael Brown Was Struck at Least 6 Times

Two of those shots were to the head.
posted by palomar at 8:07 PM on August 17, 2014

Livestream guy is getting told to move but I don't have sound.
posted by bq at 8:07 PM on August 17, 2014

"The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

holy fuck @ autopsy
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:08 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Maybe Johnson's given up, or been told to give up.

I've gone from "Surely now they'll stop" to "holy fuck, they are just crazed with power, somebody stop them."
posted by emjaybee at 8:08 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Real smart. Cop just told livestreaming cam with 40,000 viewers that he will shoot if he doesn't turn light off. Other cops won't give name.
posted by AceRock at 8:09 PM on August 17, 2014 [19 favorites]

"The police are not here to create disorder, they're here to preserve disorder."
posted by Artw at 8:09 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

Guy from Argus Radio got threatened for having his light on. A cop pointed his weapon at his face and said "get the fuck out of here with that or I will shoot you..." after the light was off.
posted by Foosnark at 8:09 PM on August 17, 2014

The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:09 PM on August 17, 2014

Livestream guy (Argus Radio): "He [a cop] pointed his weapon at me, and this is a direct quote, and said 'get the fuck out of here or I will shoot you with this'".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:09 PM on August 17, 2014

From NYT Autopsy Link: "Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds."

Can someone explain how that works? Shrapnel?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:10 PM on August 17, 2014

AceRock, can someone find a video of that?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:10 PM on August 17, 2014

I'm guessing if your hand is on your face and you get shot in the face, you have an holes in your hand and face (two body parts) from one bullet?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:11 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I just saw it, too.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:11 PM on August 17, 2014

Can someone explain how that works? Shrapnel?

Bullets can ricochet off of bones and bounce around inside the body.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:12 PM on August 17, 2014

Amanda Terkel ‏@aterkel
Police getting mad when media goes up past their line. Tells us we'll get maced next time we do that. #Ferguson
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 PM on August 17, 2014

AceRock, can someone find a video of that?

It happened literally 2 minutes ago, I'm sure the Argus guys will post it eventually.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:12 PM on August 17, 2014

The reporters on the ground are fucking heroes as far as I'm concerned. We'd have a lot less idea of what is really going on there. I hope Ryan Reilly, Wesley Lowery et al make a ton of money after all this.
posted by desjardins at 8:12 PM on August 17, 2014 [12 favorites]

I saw the cop threatening to shoot the livestreamer, that is.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014

"One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone. The last two shots in the head would have stopped him in his tracks and were likely the last fired."

Never mind. I need to just read the whole article first. My bad.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014

I just saw it live. Awful.

(Note that the autopsy says the gunpowder residue may have been on Brown's clothing, which Dr. Baden did not have access to examine.)
posted by sallybrown at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Me too. That was incredible. Not in a good way.
posted by pearlybob at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014

Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

Jesus... really? Is it necessary to keep smearing a dead boy this way?
posted by palomar at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

AceRock, can someone find a video of that?

posted by AceRock at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen, it's on the livestream. I just saw it. 1:04:00 approximately on the livestream.
posted by zug at 8:13 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Saw the threatening live too, scary stuff. Captain Todd wasn't too helpful either. He refused to give the cops name who threatened him.
posted by SarahElizaP at 8:14 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I was already leaning this way but now I know that I will never ever trust a cop ever again. Great PR job Ferguson.
posted by futz at 8:14 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen, it's live - a few reporters interviewed him tho
posted by madamjujujive at 8:14 PM on August 17, 2014

Thanks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:15 PM on August 17, 2014

Jesus... really? Is it necessary to keep smearing a dead boy this way?

I can't really fault him for this. In his particular role, he has to remain as dispassionate as possible and only interpret the evidence he finds on the body. If anything, that makes his ultimate conclusions more persuasive.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:15 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

You can "rewind" the livestream if you wish to hear the conversation.
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:17 PM on August 17, 2014

“In my capacity as the forensic examiner for the New York State Police, I would say, ‘You’re not supposed to shoot so many times,’ ” said Dr. Baden, who retired from the state police in 2011."

I mean, that's not nothing.
posted by StopMakingSense at 8:17 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

47,000 viewers.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:17 PM on August 17, 2014

showbiz_liz, I just wish that bit had been left in the autopsy report, and not reported on by media. It's red meat for the racists, now they can claim that he was trying to charge at the officer.
posted by palomar at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2014

You can "rewind" the livestream if you wish to hear the conversation.

Captain Todd of the St Louis police is more concerned with a reporter pointing his finger than a cop literally threatening to shoot the reporter. Captain Todd refused to give the reporter the name of the officer that made the threat. Fuck all these people.
posted by inigo2 at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2014 [19 favorites]

Live Stream outside police media cordon
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2014

we have shots fired
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2014

Is it normal for police to fire at the head and upper body?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Imagine what it's going to be like when they fail to convict. They'll probably call in air strikes.
posted by Artw at 8:20 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

C'est la D.C. -
Bullets ricocheting internally doesn't get you exit and re-entry, seems like it'd have to be like through-and-through an arm, and then the torso, and then into another arm for example. Which gives you 5 external wounds.

I'm neither a gun-guy nor a forensics dude, so I have no idea what that would say about the size or velocity of the bullets involved. Nothing good?

what the fuck
posted by hap_hazard at 8:21 PM on August 17, 2014

Is it normal for police to fire at the head and upper body?

To my knowledge, yes, that's considered good technique.
posted by KathrynT at 8:21 PM on August 17, 2014

It is incredibly horrifying that my immediate thought upon reading the autopsy was "only 6 times?". Only. Jesus.
posted by zug at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2014

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

Dude was 6'4".

Was the cop 9 feet tall ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's really weird toggling back and forth between the Argus (behind the police cordon) and Vice's (out with the protestors, I believe) live feeds. You have this army on one side and then a bunch of disorganized kids on the other side. It's nuts.
posted by faux ami at 8:24 PM on August 17, 2014

On the livestream (http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930) how far away are we from W Flourissant (where shots have been fired)?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:24 PM on August 17, 2014

yeah to be clear I am not defending this officer of the law shooting an unarmed black teenager in the torso and head. Just that if you're going to shoot someone, that is generally considered the right way to go about it.
posted by KathrynT at 8:25 PM on August 17, 2014

I'm skeptical that anyone's reaction after getting shot would be to charge the person with the gun. They've already proven that they're willing to shoot you.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:25 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

C'est la D.C, I shouldda previewed. On the other hand, that's even grislier than what I was imagining.
I shd stop posting because it's just going to devolve into a bunch of cursing.
posted by hap_hazard at 8:25 PM on August 17, 2014

It is incredibly horrifying that my immediate thought upon reading the autopsy was "only 6 times?". Only. Jesus.

At least we've moved on from the initial count of "4 to 6? Who knows? Why do you care?".
posted by Artw at 8:25 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ugh. I hate to even say this but a headshot is not normal. You aim for mass. Chest etc.

I feel grody typing that.
posted by futz at 8:26 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

FYI, I am listening to the scanner and these "shots fired" reports seem to be coming in from civilians, not from police. Given all of the activity in the area, who knows what these people are hearing...

Could be gunshots from civilians, could be gunshots from cops, could be tear gas, could be all sorts of things.
posted by rollbiz at 8:27 PM on August 17, 2014

Reddit provided 6 different livestreams as one.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:27 PM on August 17, 2014

What's the link for the Vice livestream?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:27 PM on August 17, 2014

Apart from shots ricocheting off of bone, I wonder if you get exit and reentry from shots fired when someone's already on the ground. Hadn't some of the witnesses stated that the cop kept firing when Brown was already down? But I don't know what you guys are talking about re: shots being meant to kill—my understanding is that unless an officer is in imminent danger, shots are supposed to be to stop, not to kill.

Re: what's happening at the moment, I have a lump in my throat right now. I guess I just didn't realize how different of a place we apparently grew up in than most people in St. Louis, and how "other" they all seem to see it as. It's so upsetting to see things escalating again—and then to see people from other parts of town, people I generally think well of, saying, "Is anyone watching Ferguson explode right now?" and that it's "like a movie." That's where my friends and family live! That's where, if someone's walking up West Florissant Avenue with a torch, they might be headed toward someone or something I love! And it's apparently where women in wheelchairs and 8-year-old kids are getting tear-gassed and reporters are being threatened and arrested. Yeah, enjoy your movie.
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here is a Vine of the officer who threatened the Livestreamer.
posted by SarahElizaP at 8:27 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

A police corporal, Juston Wheetley, is on the KSDK livestream, saying that some of the police who were out at a somewhat remote location stopping incoming traffic, had molotov cocktails thrown at them a few times by a group that was trying to drive the police away (shouting 'get out of here' or something of that sort). Then the police sent some reinforcements to that location who also had molotov cocktails thrown at them.

So that is the particular incident that kicked off the much higher aggression level at an earlier time tonight, according to this Corporal.
posted by flug at 8:28 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

@JustinGlawe
Gunshots everywhere. I'm with @jonswaine.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:29 PM on August 17, 2014

Vice link
posted by faux ami at 8:30 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

my understanding is that unless an officer is in imminent danger, shots are supposed to be to stop, not to kill.

Nope. You never point a gun at anyone you aren't willing to shoot, and you never shoot someone without trying to kill them. You can very easily get exit and re-entry wounds from someone lying on the ground, if, say, you're far enough away that the shit is at a shallow angle and goes in and out through upper arm, in through torso, out through upper thigh.

pardon me I need to go vomit a million times
posted by KathrynT at 8:30 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

Jesus, "charging at the officer" is quite a conclusion to make. If you're getting shot in the arm, you're going to instinctively look down. Is it any more complicated than that? (Edit: I guess if his arms were raised above his head, I don't know. But it seems like such a weird statement being thrown out there.)
posted by naju at 8:30 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't be surprised if the cop unloaded his entire clip but only six hit Mike Brown. That would be indicative of firing in a wild panic, completely out of control. We'll probably never find out how many rounds were actually left in the clip.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:31 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

You can very easily get exit and re-entry wounds from someone lying on the ground, if, say, you're far enough away that the shit is at a shallow angle and goes in and out through upper arm, in through torso, out through upper thigh.

Wait, what? Like, he was lying on the ground, and they shot him while he was prone?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:32 PM on August 17, 2014

faux ami, I don't believe that is a live broadcast—I just found this, by Tim Pool of Vice, which is live: http://new.livestream.com/timcast/events/3295551
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:32 PM on August 17, 2014

Jesus, "charging at the officer" is quite a conclusion to make. If you're getting shot in the arm, you're going to instinctively look down. Is it any more complicated than that?

Or he'd already fallen on his face when the cop executed him.
posted by Artw at 8:32 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I wonder if you get exit and reentry from shots fired when someone's already on the ground.

Sort of - if they ricochet back from the pavement. But, there would be telltale marks on the ground as well. Nobody has mentioned seeing those at the site of the killing, so I would assume he was not shot after he fell.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:33 PM on August 17, 2014

It is important to keep in mind that just because Mike Brown was not *hit* in the back does not mean that he was not *shot at* while facing away from the officer. The number of bullets in the body don't invalidate anything, you need to know how many shots were fired. Given that 4/6 shots were in his arm, the officer's aim obviously wasn't so great.

Don't let the cops twist this into "the witnesses are lying".
posted by zug at 8:33 PM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]

So that is the particular incident that kicked off the much higher aggression level at an earlier time tonight, according to this Corporal.

convenient that it happened at an outlying roadblock (wtf?) instead of near the protest where all the cameras are
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:33 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

I get it that the ongoing militarization of police is a big issue and a big problem, and that it's made immediately and glaringly visible by these recent events, but I think it's really important to not get caught up in statements like this:

"...the remorseless militarization has corroded the soul of American policing."

This assumes that American police was formerly a noble institution, only now spoiled by the creep of new technologies. American police has its roots firmly planted in the racist protection and accumulation of capital and property. Militarization is real, no doubt, but its newness is technological rather than philosophical; the power and philosophy of the police has always been cribbed from military understandings and methods of order fabrication, accumulation, and pacification. Cops were cracking heads in 1863 tracking runaway slaves, in 1965 breaking up antiwar protests, in 1988 in Tompkins Square, and last week in Ferguson. Ain't shit new but cammies and longer magazines/shorter barrels.

So yeah, I think the visibility of militarization is a good thing, in that it exposes all the damage Police can do when given increasingly damaging weapons and training. But it's not like militarization is spoiling our once lovely cops. That barrel's been rotten from the get go.The 'soul of American policing' is only some shit to be fondly reminisced over if you're lucky enough to be white and/(sometimes)or moneyed up.
posted by still bill at 8:34 PM on August 17, 2014 [10 favorites]

Wait, what? Like, he was lying on the ground, and they shot him while he was prone?

SPECULATION ONLY AND I AM NOT A FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST!!!!! but yes.
posted by KathrynT at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2014

Yep. The autopsy says he was STRUCK 6 times. We don't know how many shots missed.
posted by monospace at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Haha like we're going to get good crimescene photos that will tell us much about the shooting.
posted by emjaybee at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Took some time out to watch John Oliver. It was worth it.
posted by uosuaq at 8:36 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I can't figure how you'd wind up with a bullet in the top of your head if you were charging. I mean, nobody full on rhino charges.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:36 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

You might end up getting shot like that if you're shot while you're falling because you've been shot.
posted by rtha at 8:38 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

No offense flug but feel like your comment should be bathed in scare quotes.
posted by futz at 8:39 PM on August 17, 2014

Nope. You never point a gun at anyone you aren't willing to shoot, and you never shoot someone without trying to kill them.

I just do not agree with this. There is definitely such a thing as shooting to stop rather than shooting to kill. Of course, anyone with a gun must be aware that if they point it at someone and shoot, that person may die. But actually pointing a gun at someone with the intent to kill them is a step beyond that. There are shades of meaning that I feel like you're neglecting here.
posted by limeonaire at 8:39 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, nobody full on rhino charges.

Well, we're talking about a town where the local police force has called protestors a bunch of animals. So... it's not hard for me to imagine that they'll use this autopsy report to claim that the officer was charged at.
posted by palomar at 8:39 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

CNN very into the "charging" theory, says we just don't know.
posted by Artw at 8:42 PM on August 17, 2014

Just now:
Ryan J. Reilly ‏@ryanjreilly 1m

Report of shots fired has been cleared as fireworks, police say. #Ferguson
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:42 PM on August 17, 2014

There is definitely such a thing as shooting to stop rather than shooting to kill.

Sure, that exists, but it may not exist in the way police are trained, which is what matters in this case.
posted by rtha at 8:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

If the head shots were the ones that finished him, how likely is it that he would be charging anybody after being shot four times?
posted by double block and bleed at 8:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

I can't figure how you'd wind up with a bullet in the top of your head if you were charging. I mean, nobody full on rhino charges.

Dude was 6'4".

If he was Rhino Charging, the stated trajectory would make the shooting officer 9 feet tall, unless Mr. Brown was falling as he was hit. In which case, he was not charging.

Also, some of those arm wounds could be shot from behind. Especially the hand and forearm.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

And if the alleged molotovs were thrown at a remote
location how does that justify blanket violence against the press and protesters?
posted by futz at 8:44 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, they are going to have to full out claim he was having a psychotic episode or on some really bad drugs to build a case that he started charging after the shooting started. Who does that, even in a panic? You put your head down and run *away*, or seek shelter.

They're just a bunch of jumped-up Zimmermans. Every move, the very existence, of a black person is a threat. There is no action that a black person can take to not be a threat, to not always be poised on the edge of attacking them. Except being dead.
posted by emjaybee at 8:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

I think someone upthread said it best that "he went for my gun" is the "dog ate my homework" of police shootings. Who charges a cop? Who, unarmed, with no motivation other than, I guess, "self-preservation" goes for a cop's gun? And maybe most importantly, and still totally unaddressed, why was his gun drawn in the first place? When does this actually happen except when an unarmed black man is killed in America?
posted by StopMakingSense at 8:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [13 favorites]

My understanding of the diagrams was that the bullets on the arm didn't go all the way through, meaning that he had to have been shot in the front. Am I interpreting things wrong?

You can make the front of your arms face behind you by turning your hands over. Then if you were shot from behind in the forearm it would strike the front of your arm. I dunno how likely it is that this is what happened, but it's certainly possible.
posted by zug at 8:48 PM on August 17, 2014

Shooting to wound (link is from the UK, but discusses US gun laws and LEO policies)

Times Square shooting: This is why police shoot to kill

Cops furious at "don't-kill" bill

Why Are Law Enforcement Officers Taught Shoot to Kill and Not to Wound?

posted by palomar at 8:49 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Yeah, this whole fucking crazy escalation seems to have been for "gunshots" that were actually fireworks.

These cops, man.
posted by rollbiz at 8:49 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

CNN is still reporting "gunshots".

CNN is kind of pissing me off at the moment, TBH.
posted by Artw at 8:51 PM on August 17, 2014

Ryan J. Reilly ‏@ryanjreilly 4m

(That was only in connection to most recent report of shots fired, in case there was confusion.)

More shots just (reportedly) fired now.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 8:51 PM on August 17, 2014

As soon as we open up to the idea of "shooting to stop" as opposed to "shooting to kill", we're opening ourselves to the idea of a gun as non-lethal force. I really don't think we should go down that road.

No, it's a matter of intent. The gun itself is absolutely a lethal force, but intent matters.
posted by limeonaire at 8:54 PM on August 17, 2014

Artw: "Jesus, "charging at the officer" is quite a conclusion to make. If you're getting shot in the arm, you're going to instinctively look down. Is it any more complicated than that?

Or he'd already fallen on his face when the cop executed him."

Frankly, that was my thought after thinking about it for a bit, though I'd have to see the presentation... Christ on fucking honkie-ass-pogostick.
posted by symbioid at 8:54 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

No offense flug but feel like your comment should be bathed in scare quotes.

Feel free to add as many tubfuls as necessary. I was just trying to get the just of the Corporal's comments down, not saying I agree with them in any way.

FWIW the KSDK editorial approach seems to very much take the police viewpoint.

Now a different police spokesman, Brian Schellman of St Louis County Police, is talking on KSDK about a shooting at the Quik Trip that set off the police movement. According to Schellman the injuries from that shooting were not too serious. He mentions the molotov cocktails as well. He also mentioned the group that was advancing on the police command center, and that the police took action to counter that.
posted by flug at 8:55 PM on August 17, 2014

Thinking about it more - those arm shots look like defensive wounds.

If you imagine his arm up around his head, you can get a nice tight cluster.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:55 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

They have a "Mike Brooks" on now talking about all the weapons in the crowd and keep on saying "what are you going to do?" as he keeps justifying police escalation.
posted by Artw at 8:55 PM on August 17, 2014

When I learned about Kent State I just didn't understand it- how something like that could ever happen in the first place, how so much of America could just not care, how students could keep protesting afterwards. It just didn't compute. I think for the first time in my life, it does now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:58 PM on August 17, 2014 [19 favorites]

Command advising dispatch that regular calls in the area cannot be responded to, people need to "self-extricate" to officers.

It would be comical how bad this county crew is, if people's lives weren't at stake.
posted by rollbiz at 8:59 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

I got what you were saying flug! My response failed to convey that.
posted by futz at 8:59 PM on August 17, 2014

The only "shooting to disarm" that works is in the movies.

The first rule of using a gun is never point it at something you don't intend to destroy. Ever. Which is one of the reasons the pictures of the police pointing their weapons at the crowd are so shocking. (Actually, that's probably the second rule of using a gun, the first being that the gun is always to be treated as if it is loaded, so keep your fucking finger off the fucking trigger.)

At least six shots fired at Mike Brown, many more to keep the populace from expressing their displeasure at his murder. Every officer and official involved in this needs to resign. Now.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:01 PM on August 17, 2014 [24 favorites]

No, it's a matter of intent. The gun itself is absolutely a lethal force, but intent matters.

I think this is a flatulent path of discourse. Intent isn't magical. It's like hitting someone with a car to stop them. You either know that it's very likely to kill them, or you're so overcome with anger/etc that you're not thinking clearly about it.

Either way, you're using something that is well known to be lethal in a non lethal way.

This is also a situation in which intent not being magic would apply.
posted by emptythought at 9:02 PM on August 17, 2014

I see. Thanks.
posted by faux ami at 9:04 PM on August 17, 2014

As soon as we open up to the idea of "shooting to stop" as opposed to "shooting to kill", we're opening ourselves to the idea of a gun as non-lethal force. I really don't think we should go down that road.

Huh?

Look at what happens when we give them non-lethal tasers and non-lethal rubber bullets and non-lethal LRADs and non-lethal tear gas. They toss them around like fucking candy. Do you really want cops to incorporate 'non-lethal shooting' into their routine?

Not to mention, you can be shot in the arm or leg and bleed out in seconds if the wrong arteries get hit. Shooting to disable isn't a thing you can just decide you're gonna do and then definitely do without killing the person.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:04 PM on August 17, 2014 [13 favorites]

dhartung: If the cop saw cigars in his hand, they would have been dropped or tossed at some point, wouldn't they? Any evidence of cigarillos, boxes, or anything like that in any of the crime scene photos that anyone has seen? That would sort of be critical to back up the (reported) police account.

How quickly we forget Ron Johnson saying the two were unrelated, and that they had no record of him knowing about that alleged shoplifting or suspecting him of being related to it at the time of the shooting.

I can't find it because this thread is so huge, but his statement was linked several times either in a news report or multiple tweets up thread.
posted by emptythought at 9:08 PM on August 17, 2014 [4 favorites]

Dispatch reporting that there are people who have been shot, and also a car that hit a Ferguson PD vehicle at high speed at Chambers and Halls Ferry. It's unclear how much of this has happened, how clear it is.
posted by rollbiz at 9:09 PM on August 17, 2014

Oh do not even use a link that's about the notion of intent in cases of abuse, and how saying you didn't "intend" to hurt someone doesn't justify abuse, to tell me intent "isn't magic." You are talking to someone who's been the beneficiary of exactly that kind of excuse, used throughout my childhood to justify reprehensible acts. I am aware that intent is not magic. But it is relevant in a court of law—which is eventually where this case is going.

You are also talking to someone who absolutely wants justice for Mike Brown, if you haven't read my comments upthread. I fully agree that police pointing their loaded weapons at protesters and reporters is shocking and not something that's helping this situation.

But officers absolutely are trained to recognize a difference between shooting with the intent to kill and shooting to stop, neutralize, or immobilize someone. There are absolutely shades of meaning here that you are blazing past. "Shooting to stop" is not something I'm making up as a solution or taking from some TV show—this is an actual thing that people already do in the real world.

I am not saying more shooting is the answer at this second, in my hometown. I'm trying to address a point of contention that was raised above.
posted by limeonaire at 9:14 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't know why I am so shocked by all this. We made our attitude about blacks very plain post-Katrina - gunned them down when they were trying to flee to safety. Penned 'em all in, treated them like animals, blamed them for drowning.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:15 PM on August 17, 2014 [15 favorites]

CNN is the first one out with incomplete or flatly wrong versions of events and the last one to correct them.
posted by double block and bleed at 9:17 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

I'm not seeing any Twitter activity from Wesley Lowery for about the past 40 minutes... did he get arrested again?
posted by palomar at 9:18 PM on August 17, 2014

pope guilty: pt, what color is your acquaintance's skin?

Yea, really. This was standard MO in high school for stupid ass kids. Run in, put exact change or rounded up to the next dollar on the counter, run out with beer. We thought we were so damn clever because it "wasn't stealing!"

No one i know ever saw the cops from doing this, but every single person who did it was white.

Contrastingly, i knew a couple non-white kids who did stuff like that(or just stole it, which plenty of my friends did too, and blatantly even) and it was a HUGE deal. Cops showing up, getting in trouble at school too, etc.

The difference in enforcement, even in a "progressive" PNW city, is very very stark. Comparing your experience as a white(or white looking) person doing shit like this to that of someone who isn't is like comparing your experiences sailing to driving, or something.
posted by emptythought at 9:18 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Travis HughesVerified account ‏@TravisSBN
#Ferguson live video feed would be a lot easier to understand with a map. So I made a quick map w/ what I can gather
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Chris Hayes just tweeted "I'm looking at what appears to be a dead body in the middle of Chambers"
posted by Weeping_angel at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2014

11:21PM Chris Hayes: "I'm looking at what appears to be a dead body in the middle of Chambers"
posted by AceRock at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I just keep hoping that enough white people will pay fucking attention this time madamjujujive. I feel that pull to not want to, though, to just believe that somehow Brown and Ferguson people "brought it on themselves" (however you want to justify that) because, damn, then I could stop thinking about all the painful shit. Not just Ferguson but all the other stuff that's not even in the news, and the few things I've heard about, and the vast amount of things I will never hear about.

I know that's what my fellow white people are doing and feeling. Either shrugging it off out of helplessness, or worse, letting the racist leanings of most reporting/commentary soothe them into indifference. It's just those black people, being crazy again. Who can understand them? Too bad. Nothing to be done.

I mean, I actively feel that pull, even knowing what I do. It's really seductive. It makes a white person's life so much easier. Not to make this about White People Pain, but just to talk about the desire not to see something that is so ugly and implicates you (and everyone around you) in ways you are afraid to think about. It is so so strong.
posted by emjaybee at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

One of the witnesses, @TheePharoah: "let my tweets show you, i never said he was shot in the back".

Here are his tweets about the shooting, courtesy of Buzzfeed.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:25 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

The dark humor of people facing injustice:

‏@MelindaTaub Hello 911? A gang of armed maniacs have kidnapped a small Missouri town. Can you send I don't know, what's like the opposite of police?
posted by emjaybee at 9:29 PM on August 17, 2014 [40 favorites]

"Down the street, there's a body laying in the road." - and this was an unsubstantiated rumor. Sorry all!
posted by spinifex23 at 9:33 PM on August 17, 2014

Can anyone speak to the family releasing the autopsy results before the police department? I wonder about any discrepancies and whether or not they will be able to report differently. And I wonder if these results will differ greatly from what witnesses have reported. Will this hurt them in the long run?
posted by mokeydraws at 9:36 PM on August 17, 2014

Secondly, shooting center mass ( not "mast" as claimed above me), neutralizes the threat. We are taught to neutralize, NOT KILL.

I'm really not sure citations like this from supposed police officers on Yahoo Answers are going to win anyone over to your point of view, limeonaire.

Yeah, OK, whatever. Not everything on Yahoo! Answers is shit, and I actually thought that was a pretty good explanation of this practice people keep claiming doesn't exist. Anyway, for something perhaps more authoritative, and definitely more critical, here is an excellent three-part series on PoliceOne.com by Roy Bedard called "Shooting center mass" that discusses the notion of "shooting to stop" vs. "shooting to kill" from multiple perspectives. The only reason I didn't link to this series at first is because it took some time to read through.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
posted by limeonaire at 9:43 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]

Cute boy with sign, reverse channeling Gil Scott Heron The revolution will be tele VINED
posted by madamjujujive at 9:46 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

twitter @ShaunKing: Large group of teens in standoff w/ police right now. Lord help. A recipe for disaster here. Young brothers been saying they're ready to die
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:49 PM on August 17, 2014

Group Rallies In Support Of Darren Wilson, Police Officer Who Shot Michael Brown

I can't decide who's worse, the guy who compares protesters to untrained dogs or the guy who says if everyone would just shut up about racism it would all go away and that you should just do whatever the police ask you to do, even if you have a legal right not to do so, such as showing ID.
posted by palomar at 9:49 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's almost definitely better for the family's case that the private autopsy was released first. Now it's up to the local authorities to not look (more) like justice-obstructing clowns when they release theirs.
posted by scatter gather at 9:50 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

@brettwhite: If you move the arms up in a surrender gesture, then all the bullet wounds are clustered in the same area. #Ferguson
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

You know, I just realized government is being run like a business, the republicans should be proud!

We all know that to big businesses, "fines" are just a line-item cost, same as the price of steel or paper. Just as it suits a business to (say) pollute groundwater while making billions knowing it may need to (worst-case!) pay a few million in fines many years later, our government is happy to murder ~~undesirables~~ citizens, because the penalties are similarly without teeth.

Worst case? A sad speech by a muckity muck, maybe a early retirement with full pension for the chosen fall guy. For the entity involved, perhaps a token fine or "citizens oversight committee" with no teeth and no mission. If they can keep from murdering anyone new until everyone* forgets (not easy for some of our civil servants!), bingo, reformed.

Nice constitution you have there. Shame if anything should happen to it.

* In the United States, pursuant to recent legislation, "everyone" is defined as rich white people
posted by maxwelton at 9:54 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

Curfew starts in five minutes...
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 PM on August 17, 2014

Amnesty New Zealand ‏@AmnestyNZ
The situation in #Ferguson has prompted us to send human rights teams. First time we've deployed inside the US. http://bzfd.it/1mZtFSN
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:01 PM on August 17, 2014 [27 favorites]

In case you weren't sure, Ferguson is what a police state looks like.
posted by maxwelton at 10:02 PM on August 17, 2014 [16 favorites]

STL Journalists
A public list by Kristen Hare
Kristen Hare

Journalists covering the shooting of Michael Brown

119 and counting.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:06 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Well, I thought all the out racists in my FB had blocked me or been blocked, but hey, I was wrong. I guess it's better to know than not to know, but it's distressing that he attends my progressive church. Guess his progressive only goes so far.
posted by emjaybee at 10:07 PM on August 17, 2014

How do you translate so that everyone gets it? Without sounding like a conspiracy theorist?
posted by mokeydraws at 10:09 PM on August 17, 2014

@brettwhite: If you move the arms up in a surrender gesture, then all the bullet wounds are clustered in the same area. #Ferguson

Hehe, Artw, I said that same thing an hour ago.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:12 PM on August 17, 2014

All media now returning to designated staging area. Few media remain out on the streets. This is absurd.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:14 PM on August 17, 2014

Livestream numbers now declining. Fewer people to witness the police.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:15 PM on August 17, 2014

Yeah, both live streams I'm watching are in the press freedom area. Is there anything from the main protest areas?
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:16 PM on August 17, 2014

Multiple reporters on the livestream right now saying that the police set off the conflict tonight. They are saying that police have said that it was in response to Molotov cocktails from the crowd, but that none of them saw any such thing.
posted by rollbiz at 10:16 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ferguson cop to reporter: "Get the fuck out of here or I will shoot you with this"
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:23 PM on August 17, 2014

Turns out, when all you have is riot gear, everything looks like a riot.
posted by hap_hazard at 10:26 PM on August 17, 2014 [32 favorites]

Yep, that was linked four times already, flapjax.
posted by mlis at 10:27 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Slate just linked a few tweets including this one about reports of gunfire from protestors:

Report of shots fired has been cleared as fireworks, police say. #Ferguson
-- Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 18, 2014
posted by mediareport at 10:28 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm not defending the police response here but what kind of dumbass sets off fireworks near a situation like this? I assume they were trolling.
posted by Justinian at 10:32 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

They're firing gas again, and a lot of it. The Vice feed -- take this for what you want -- says that the group they're with is "like sixty percent press" after the protesters thinned out around the midnight curfew.
posted by StopMakingSense at 10:34 PM on August 17, 2014

Did you notice that "setting off fireworks" is always prefaced by "police say"?
posted by futz at 10:35 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Did you notice that "setting off fireworks" is always prefaced by "police say"?

The livefeed showed some fireworks, but it was well after the cops had started attacking the protestors with teargas.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:38 PM on August 17, 2014

The Vice streamers meet each other.

No comment.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:39 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

And of course it it is possible that some idiot/s would set off fireworks. Either scenario shouldn't be surprising.
posted by futz at 10:40 PM on August 17, 2014

I'd be curious to see any evidence of these "molotov cocktails".
posted by Artw at 10:40 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've had work to do tonight, but I've been watching. All I've got to say is how you gonna gas the church ladies and little children? That make you feel like a big man? That's a bad look.

They've not only thrown Captain Johnson under the bus, they backed up and hit him again to make sure. Makes them look even more racist than I thought they were.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:42 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

They're not even trying to hide it at this point!
posted by mokeydraws at 10:45 PM on August 17, 2014

Artw: “I'd be curious to see any evidence of these "molotov cocktails".”

They had a woman crying on the phone on MSNBC. She said she was on the front line and didn't see anything like that. Sounds like the cops thought the protestors were coming right for them.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:45 PM on August 17, 2014

Who is trolling? This is WAY beyond trolling.
posted by futz at 10:45 PM on August 17, 2014

They've not only thrown Captain Johnson under the bus, they backed up and hit him again to make sure. Makes them look even more racist than I thought they were.

Yeah, I guess anything there was too him is pretty much irrelevant now, he's just another shit cop. No adults are going to be allowed to get in the way of this shitshow.
posted by Artw at 10:47 PM on August 17, 2014

This is a surreal way to come back from week of backpacking and look at news. It's all bad, but at this point the state of "journalism" is perhaps the most scary. If the police set up a 'freedom zone' or whatever they are called, what kind of self respecting journalist is just hanging around there waiting for a presser? Between the FAA ban, corporate ownership of news, and what looks like some clock-punching efforts by the journalists, the story will never be told. Well scratch that - one side of the story will be told.
posted by H. Roark at 10:48 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

This is about the main peacekeeper the last week:
Brother Shahid thinks beyond protest to jobs for black youth

As noted, but this is MSM:
Bipartisan Report ‏@Bipartisanism
Autopsy expert on CNN says shots that hit inside of arm and hand are consistent with a man with arms up in style of surrendering.

Re: Johnson, Jelani Cobb's earlier report was posted, but not today's: A Movement Grows in Ferguson
On Johnson’s first night in charge, the police presence in the neighborhood was hardly visible; officers withdrew to the perimeter and removed a roadblock that had cut off Florissant Road, which runs just south of the QuikTrip. The protests that night had a giddy quality. Cars drove up and down the strip, the sounds of honking horns accompanying shouts of Brown’s name and “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot,” which has emerged as the signature slogan here.

But as early as Friday morning people began to wonder if Johnson really was in charge, in any meaningful way.... [Jackson released the cop's name and the store video, taking control of the narrative].

key graf
Johnson had to concede that he had not even known that the video would be released; he saw it on television just as everyone else had. (“I would like to have been consulted,” he said at his own press conference.) After sporadic looting on Saturday night—halted largely by other protestors who rushed to protect the establishments being vandalized—Governor Jay Nixon declared a curfew, further undercutting Johnson’s authority. In the span of twenty-four hours, Johnson had gone, in the community’s eyes, from empowered native son to black token. One of the local activists I’d met in Feguson sent me a text message after the curfew announcement saying, “Johnson has good intentions but no power. This is beyond him.” On Sunday, Johnson stepped into the pulpit at Greater Grace Church, the site of a rally, and apologized to Brown’s family, saying, “I wear this uniform and I feel like that needs to be said.” With that, he implicitly condemned the Ferguson Police Department for their failure to do so. Johnson had promised not to use tear gas in the streets of Ferguson but, during a skirmish with looters on Saturday night, police tear-gassed the crowd. Johnson’s address at the church carried the message that his allegiances were, nonetheless, with the people of Ferguson. James Baldwin remarked that black leaders chronically find themselves in a position of asking white people to hurry up while pleading with black people to wait. Johnson finds himself asking black people to remain calm while imploring white police officers not to shoot. The problem here is that few people in Ferguson believe that the former is any guarantee of the latter.
posted by dhartung at 10:53 PM on August 17, 2014 [8 favorites]

of note, there are no "embedded" journalist. just a random thought.
posted by daq at 10:53 PM on August 17, 2014

They obviously called this "press conference" just to keep reporters away from anything happening. Journalists just milling around, miles away now, all falling for it. Has controlling the message ever been so effortless?

"Do you know when the press conference is going to be?"
Cop: "No idea."
"Does somebody know?"
Cop: "No idea."
posted by naju at 10:55 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

Is war correspondent still a thing? I think we need one of those in there.
posted by mokeydraws at 10:55 PM on August 17, 2014

New surveillance video from the grocery store seems to show that Michael Brown paid for the cigarillos. It sure doesn't look like a robbery to me.
posted by monospace at 10:56 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

Artw: “Yeah, I guess anything there was too him is pretty much irrelevant now, he's just another shit cop. No adults are going to be allowed to get in the way of this shitshow.”

I wouldn't say that about the man. I think it says more about whoever is actually calling the shots here, and I'm not sure that's Johnson.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:59 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Woman who posted a pic and says she is there, reports no molotovs: link to her twitter
posted by wuwei at 11:00 PM on August 17, 2014

@NathanBGrant:
Police telling @alicesperi that they've been shot at dozens of times tonight

Officer says that it's not the protesters who are looting and shooting,

@AntonioFrench: These people are not protestors. This is something different and it has little to do with #JusticeForMikeBrown.

@charlesjaco1: Now shots around Canfield, down West Florissant from separate police scene at Chambers. Several instances of gunfire tonight, none from cops
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:01 PM on August 17, 2014

New surveillance video from the grocery store seems to show that Michael Brown paid for the cigarillos. It sure doesn't look like a robbery to me.

Where does it show that exactly?
posted by Drinky Die at 11:02 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's just zooming in on the existing released video to be clear. After looking at it several times at half and quarter speed (thank you YT for that feature), I think maybe the clerk is coming back out to stop him and give him his money back, IF that is money in his hands, and that's what leads to the shoving/looming behavior? Because he can't sell w/o ID being shown? Best theory I have.
posted by dhartung at 11:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

"The only reason I didn't link to this series at first is because it took some time to read through."

I don't think you're aware that the the three part piece from PoliceOne you linked and to which you refer directly contradicts what you'd asserted and he'd quoted. The Czech officer's argument, and this officer's argument, is that shooting center mass is very likely to kill and that the "shooting to stop" mantra in US law enforcement really is exactly the same thing as "shooting to kill" in the sense of "likelihood of death". "Shooting to stop" and "shooting to kill" are not contrary to each other in the way that you think and which is the basis of your argument, but another way.

The Czech argument, and what this guy is asking people to think about, is that you can actually manage to "shoot to stop, not kill" by aiming only at the lower legs. Personally, I'm skeptical about this because I'm familiar with a comprehensive study of gunshot victims which showed, contrary to that Czech officer's assertion, that the majority of gunshot victims didn't immediately realize they were shot and the average was about twenty seconds. I also think the American cop's skepticism about hitting someone's lower legs was warranted, especially given that many other studies show that when cops actually fire their weapons in the field, the majority of their shots don't hit the person they were aiming for.

I'm anti-gun, even with regard to policing, so I'd be thrilled if this actually makes sense and would work in the US. But, well, that's beside the point because you were wrong in your basic premise. You misunderstood what "shoot to stop, not shoot to kill" really means in US law enforcement.

What it really means is that intentionally trying to shoot to kill (going for a head shot, for example) is unreliable because you're likely to miss and, anyway, the intention in all this is to just stop the target as quickly as possible, one way or another, so shooting at the center mass, and doing so many times, is the most reliable way of accomplishing this. They're not "shooting to stop" as a way of trying to avoid killing, not at all. Killing as a result of "shooting to stop" is a perfectly fine outcome by this way of thinking. And, in fact, it's a relatively likely outcome, as that Czech officer was pointing out. That's why the Czech officer thinks that Americans shoot to kill.

I think that arguing for non-lethal use of guns by the police by anyone who is progressive is a huge mistake because guns are inherently lethal and it's a serious malfunction of our society to ever think of them as the first, best solution to a problem, including policing. It's a film/tv fantasy that the police can safely shoot and disable someone because even ricochets off the bones of those lower legs could be quickly fatal and, more to the point, all those missed shots at at the lower legs can hit other people -- innocent bystanders -- and kill them. "Shooting to disable" leads exactly in the opposite direction that any progressive should want to go. I understand why you and other folk want to go in that direction, but it's a huge mistake. It's exactly the wrong way to think about this.

With regard to multiple gunshot wounds, it's the case that a gunshot wound doesn't instantly stop someone. Police are trained to aim for the center mass and shoot many times, including emptying their clip. Multiple gunshot wounds are not evidence of excess because, for example, even when you hit someone in their torso multiple times when they're charging at you, it's a fair chance that they won't notice (or care) immediately and they'll still reach you. Many, many people who don't have experience or knowledge of handguns shoot someone in self-defense and find to their dismay that their attacker just keeps on coming. Who then often takes the gun from them and turns it against them.

Causing one gunshot wound is not morally better than causing ten because, bottom line, guns very easily kill people and any use of guns as if they're not likely to kill people is a fantasy in which we avoid the actual reality that is killing people with guns.

And, more emphatically, I find a dead, unarmed boy with one gunshot wound from the police just as intolerable as I find a dead, unarmed boy with ten gunshots wounds.

For that matter, just in case this needs to be reiterated, I find that dead, unarmed boy, shot by the police, just as intolerable when he's robbed a convenience store earlier that day. The discussions above where there's a lot of concern and attempts to insist that Brown may be completely innocent of everything, or innocent of a worse thing but not of some minor things -- all of that is irrelevant and ceding territory to the assumption that in this kind of situation -- a dead, unarmed black kid and cop -- the onus is on people to explain why the dead black kid didn't deserve it. Once they've gotten you to accept that premise, then anything at all that you ever may have to give ground on (he was't running away, he did assault the clerk, he said something hurtful to his mom, he didn't wear clean underwear) is a victory for the people who have said: prove the dead, unarmed kid didn't deserve this.

A dead, unarmed kid is a dead, unarmed kid and if we're meticulously arguing about gradations of this on the basis of how many times he was shot (his murder was more horrible) or how naughty of a person he was (his murder was less horrible), then there's something very wrong with our society.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:09 PM on August 17, 2014 [23 favorites]

New surveillance video from the grocery store seems to show that Michael Brown paid for the cigarillos. It sure doesn't look like a robbery to me.

At 19 seconds, it looks like money is in the video. Screenshot.
posted by andoatnp at 11:09 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Amy K Nelson's Twitter feed

She seemed to be one of the last journalists outside of the press "freedom zone", and she says they just got kicked out after watching them mace a handcuffed man.
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:10 PM on August 17, 2014

School district has cancelled Monday classes.
posted by dhartung at 11:10 PM on August 17, 2014

They obviously called this "press conference" just to keep reporters away from anything happening. Journalists just milling around, miles away now, all falling for it. Has controlling the message ever been so effortless

Are we absolutely sure that the reporters are guileless? Perhaps they were forced/cajoled into being there? Many of them have been tear gassed, detained, shot at with rubber bullets and have had their equipment fucked with. It appears at this point that a journo is safer in Syria or Iraq than Ferguson.
posted by futz at 11:14 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

The press need to get drones with IR cameras. Where are the network news helicopters?
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:16 PM on August 17, 2014

Police saying "put the camera down or turn it off" to Vicenews reporters as they filmed guy ziptied cuffed in a bus.
posted by mokeydraws at 11:17 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh my dear Jesus Christ in a sidecar. I have been following this thread for a week now, looking suspiciously eager to get back from my own fucking honeymoon (where there wasn't the best wifi I mean I had to go on top of a goddamn mountain to read this), and we are STILL at whether or not he stole the fucking cigarillos?? Fucking give the kid the cigarillos, assume he DIDNT mean to pay for them, and still I'm not seeing why he had to die in the street like a dog. I don't care if he literally stole all the fucking swisher sweet grape flavored quasi-cigarettes that ever were manufactured ever. THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE US MILITARY OCCUPATION OF US NEIGHBORHOODS. that is all, and yes eastern PA people I was the one on top of your lovely mountains with a fucking iPad refreshing this thread...sorry about your stars..
posted by deep thought sunstar at 11:17 PM on August 17, 2014 [35 favorites]

Airspace ban, remember?
posted by Artw at 11:17 PM on August 17, 2014

I thought the airspace ban was commercial only.
posted by KathrynT at 11:19 PM on August 17, 2014

They threatened to shoot a live human being because they didn't like his camera light (let's pray they didn't actually mean it but just wanted instant compliance). You think they wouldn't shoot a drone?

OTOH, while there are obviously stupid things still happening and these mofos are their own worst PR -- here's a new Vine of them shooting a canister at some people (presumably) in their own yard -- per Chris King,
The outside agitator aspect is openly discussed now. Not sure how widely that will be understood.

I think we're back at a Watertown-type moral quandary as far as how far policing can go to shut down a community when there are dangerous people about with violence as part of their repertoire. The Ferguson community spent all day trying to create an image of peace and unity, and it looks like that will not be tomorrow's headlines, so if anything the farther the media are from that the better for the intentional movement being built. I really don't care if these troublemakers are doing it out of some high-minded anarchist the revolution comes principles, or just jerks seeing an opportunity to do as much mayhem as they can get away with, but I'm sure not on their side. So we're back to the police not being trusted again, and how difficult it is when that's the case.
posted by dhartung at 11:39 PM on August 17, 2014

Many strive to put violence-torn Ferguson on new course -- Akilah Johnson

Malcolm Johnson ‏@admiralmpj:
@chriskingstl @WarOnFerguson There are four forces here: Local Peaceful Protesters. Looters. Folks who want to fight cops. Cops.

Another Antonio French tweet I can't find: These people are outsiders and don't represent our community, basically.

Shit. BREAKING: Nixon orders National Guard to Ferguson.
posted by dhartung at 11:48 PM on August 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Gov. Nixon Directs National Guard to Ferguson
posted by yertledaturtle at 11:49 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well thank fuck for that.

Unless they just pull the same shit and act surprised when it doesn't work, which I wouldn't rule out.
posted by Artw at 11:50 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Gov. Nixon called in the national Guard.
posted by mokeydraws at 11:51 PM on August 17, 2014

Captain Johnson just said they weren't calling in the National Guard. 20 minutes later, the National Guard is being called in. Either they have the worst lines of communication in the history of communication, or the "they're trying to undermine him" theory is looking more plausible.
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:55 PM on August 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

They're giving Captain Johnson the Colin Powell treatment.
posted by wuwei at 11:57 PM on August 17, 2014 [19 favorites]

The discussions above where there's a lot of concern and attempts to insist that Brown may be completely innocent of everything, or innocent of a worse thing but not of some minor things -- all of that is irrelevant and ceding territory to the assumption that in this kind of situation

I don't know about the other commenters, but I wasn't bringing up the convenience store video to prove that Brown was anything, one way or the other. I brought it up to show that the police are presenting information with a very clear biased.

...or how naughty of a person he was...

The police are wording their statements to imply wrong doing when it's questionable if there was any. Regardless of Brown, the police are skewing information, and attention should be brought to the lack of due diligence in the information that the public is receiving.
posted by Shouraku at 11:57 PM on August 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's a damned scan so I can't cut and paste any of the text, but here's Executive Order 14-09 [PDF], calling in the National Guard and ordering the State Police to close any roads in the City of Ferguson they deem necessary to "maintain peace and order."
posted by ob1quixote at 12:00 AM on August 18, 2014

Artw: I do not believe any NG are going to have training in community policing. Nor will they have nearly as forgiving a relationship with the press, who were at least up till now able to achieve a negotiated presence.

Shouraku is correct -- regardless of whether it should matter, in practical terms it matters very much. If there is a question about what is in the video it does point to bias and emphasis by the very-much-on-their-back-foot Ferguson PD. (And I'm still mystified as to why their Chief released this when supposedly the County Police were lead investigators.)
posted by dhartung at 12:01 AM on August 18, 2014

They probably don't need to deploy the National Guard. What Johnson did that first night was working. But I guess going out there and talking to people, trying to bring some transparency to the things they're concerned about, and not engaging in a cover-up of a crime (Where is Wilson, anyway?) are not as fun as armored cars and gasmasks and LRADs.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

One thing I've been thinking about is how the government response to protest is now harsher than it was during Occupy. The press pen. Airspace cutoff. Guns pointed at journalists. Also, the trucks chasing protesters down the street.

And yet, the people in Ferguson are still protesting, and are getting more support from around the world.

And now , out comes the National Guard.
posted by wuwei at 12:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think calling in the National Guard is a pretty worrying escalation. I guess now the guys in tactical outfits will be actual soldiers...
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:04 AM on August 18, 2014

MattDPearce tweets - Important: @adamsteinbaugh points out that the language of Nixon's new order replaces "curfew" with "closing streets."

(beaten on preview, so here's a list of places to donate money or food.)
posted by zix at 12:05 AM on August 18, 2014

I'm worried about it too. Someone will do something stupid, and away we go.
posted by wuwei at 12:06 AM on August 18, 2014

A thing I think we can all do is seed newspaper comments. I just realized that a lot of links people are posting and also that you can find for your own selves are small-town AP type reports on ferguson... I just found myself leaving a very well-put (well, spelled right) comment on some small Texas town's news site. I know people here can do it better than I did.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 12:10 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

So, NBC News just tweeted about the National Guard taking over, and they posted a photo and I genuinely can't tell if it's an example photo of the National Guard or a recent shot from Ferguson. That's scary.
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:17 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Photographer says Ferguson police "need to shoot some people" to stop this.

I feel sick. I need to take a puppy break or something.
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:31 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

This has to be the thickest "blue line" in goddamn fucking history.
posted by maxwelton at 12:33 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

We are witnessing a tragedy unfurling in slow motion. I fear that this is going to end in blood and fire. It's like everyone sees the iceberg coming and we could turn away at any time but the people at the wheel lack the will and the zealots in the crew want to hit it to prove the strength of the ship.

I fervently how I'm wrong but it really seems like everyone in a position of authority wants to see the worst happen.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:45 AM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

I think I've come down with a terrible case of bad metaphors.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:46 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

futz: I was already leaning this way but now I know that I will never ever trust a cop ever again. Great PR job Ferguson.

Yeah. I've been re-reading James Baldwin's 1963 essay “Down at the Cross: Letter from a Region in My Mind”: "I cannot risk assuming that the humanity of these people is more real to them than their uniforms. Most Negroes cannot risk assuming that the humanity of white people is more real to them than their color."

Schrodinger's Cop / National Guardsman.

Also been re-reading Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow:

How exactly does a formally colorblind criminal justice system achieve such racially discriminatory results? . . . The first step is to grant law enforcement officials extraordinary discretion regarding whom to stop, search, arrest, and charge . . . thus ensuring that conscious and unconscious racial beliefs and stereotypes will be given free reign. . . .[Then] demand that anyone who wants to challenge racial bias in the system offer, in advance, clear proof that the racial disparities are the product of intentional racial discrimination – i.e., the work of a bigot. This evidence will almost never be available in the era of colorblindness . . .

The public consensus . . . purports to see black and brown men not as black and brown, but simply as men – raceless men – who have failed miserably to play by the rules the rest of us follow quite naturally. The fact that so many black and brown men are rounded up for . . . crimes that go largely ignored when committed by whites is unseen.

. . . The colorblindness ideal is premised on the notion that we, as a society, can never be trusted to see race and treat each other fairly or with genuine compassion. A commitment to color consciousness, by contrast, places faith in our capacity as humans to show care and concern for others, even as we are fully cognizant of race and possible racial differences.

. . . A widespread belief that a majority of black and brown men unfortunately belong in jail is compatible with the new American creed, provided that their imprisonment can be interpreted as their own fault . . . [Then,] society is absolved of responsibility to do anything about their condition.

posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:51 AM on August 18, 2014 [20 favorites]

The attack on the "command center" seems to have been missed by all of the journalists in the area including those at the command center. If the wounded civilian Nixon refers to was the lady grazed in the leg by a bullet, that seems to have been a relatively minor incident. From what I saw in tweets it seems like the shooting was coming primarily from teenagers. But there may have been shooting and Molotov cocktails thrown away from the main protest area. Supposedly the people arrested last night were from out of town. I'd like to see the evidence of intensifying "coordinated" attacks before bringing in the military.

By the way, what happened to the dead body(ies) that one journalist tweeted about?
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:57 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think we're about to be disabused of any notion that the National Guard are coming to help. This is about to be escalated ten or a hundred fold. Lots of people are still under the impression that this is local isolated police overstepping their bounds. What's really about to be clear is that this is The Way It Is. The next step is a squelching of the unruly lower class: streets blocked off with tanks, orders to use weapons at will, mass arrests and injuries, deaths. I hope to god I'm wrong, but Newark wasn't as long ago as we'd like to think.
posted by naju at 1:01 AM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

I have been trying to find some sort of meaningful followup on that post from Chris Hayes about the dead body in the street but haven't found anything. I'm particularly interested because a death amongst the protestors strikes me as a pretty extreme worst case scenario. It's hard to imagine that it would have been kept under wraps, though.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:01 AM on August 18, 2014

The Vice guy went to the scene, it appeared to be a car accident. There were also reports of gunfire around the time, but the cops there when Vice arrived were responding to a car accident.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:11 AM on August 18, 2014

"I think calling in the National Guard is a pretty worrying escalation."

and

"We are witnessing a tragedy unfurling in slow motion. I fear that this is going to end in blood and fire. [...] I fervently how I'm wrong but it really seems like everyone in a position of authority wants to see the worst happen."

I think with the police, at this point, it's virtually certain to get much worse tomorrow night and then ongoing. But with the National Guard, it's about 75% likely to instantly get much better and 25% likely to get instantly much, much worse. Worse than with the police.

It's a true escalation in the sense of overwhelming force that the police were attempting from the beginning. That was horrible and stupid because it both wasn't even close to necessary and the SLC police involved were incompetent assholes. But now I don't see how a withdrawal by the authorities is possible. In fact, at this point, I fear that would be about an equivalent roll of the dice as the National Guard. It most likely wouldn't result in much, if any, bloodshed, but just a lot of vandalism and looting. Unfortunately, here in America (as much elsewhere) we value property more than we do health and lives, so that's not on the table.

So the way I see it is that continuing with the police in any significant capacity is basically certain to lead to a very bad outcome. Mostly withdrawing the police would lead to a pretty bad outcome, because whether or not you consider looting and such as really bad, it would have a lot of follow-on bad effects for just about all sides of this thing. Putting in the National Guard is more likely than not going to just shut the whole town right down, that's almost always what's happened in similar situations in the past. There's a small chance it could lead to something even worse than leaving it to the police.

The thing is, we had a good situation Thursday night. The Ferguson PD release of the video is what blew that up and multiple someones should lose their jobs for this and be criminally investigated for it. Whether it was with deliberate malice or not, it was an evil act.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:20 AM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

I think this is indicative of various factions within MO state politics fighting over how to handle this. Nixon of course always could try to take the upper hand by deploying the NG. But considering how many NG/Reserve soldiers are also cops in their day jobs, I have to wonder whether the NG itself will be loyal to the governor.
posted by wuwei at 1:27 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Best case scenario now is that the National Guard have actually been called in to chase the police out of town.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:27 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Say it does get worse, like instantly worse, then the pressure will be on Obama to federalize the NG. He might even have to call out active duty units like at the Little Rock schoolhouse. This is the kind of thing that could lead to a Constitutional crisis. IF he does federalize, prepare for the conservatives to start talking about impeachment.
posted by wuwei at 1:28 AM on August 18, 2014

If nothing like that happened during the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles it's not going to happen here. Those riots were exponentially worse than the unrest we're seeing here.

Secondly, Posse Comitatus means he couldn't do it anyway.
posted by Justinian at 1:31 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

If I was running PR for the protesters, I would have them line the streets when the NG comes in to town before anything else happens and greet them as liberators, requesting that they take over for the police permanently. That would send a very significant message.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:41 AM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

Hmm, I just remembered it did kinda sorta happen during the Rodney King thing. So maybe you're right?
posted by Justinian at 1:47 AM on August 18, 2014

(Can somebody explain why the stuff that happened during the Rodney King riots didn't fall afoul of Posse Comitatus please?)
posted by Justinian at 1:48 AM on August 18, 2014

How long does it take the National Guard to deploy? When will they arrive?
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:55 AM on August 18, 2014

One thing to consider in terms of the National Guard is that due to the long wars, they may actually have more experience in de-escalating riots than the police, and they may have soldiers who know how to do diplomacy. They may also be less jumpy on the trigger and more likely to know what real danger looks like.
posted by corb at 2:48 AM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Molotov cocktails used on a Domino's Pizza, do you hear? Do you not grasp the inherent level of violence and chaos that indicates in connection with everything except the police themselves? General Molotov has set his sights on our pure American pizza.

Jimmy Fallon a few nights ago:

The news is just terrible. Of course, everyone is talking about what’s going on in Ferguson, Missouri. It's a pretty tense situation right now and it seems like it just keeps getting worse. The police have actually just started arresting journalists. It's true. But when the cops saw the crew from CNN, they were like, “Well, you guys are fine.”

posted by XMLicious at 3:00 AM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

I said some stuff here the other day and kinda got shouted down a little bit. Let me explain my perspective. I grew up in an isolated rural area here in Missouri and there were no black people in any of my school classes (or indeed the whole school). My father was a hideous racist and I had no idea why. I rejected that philosophy at a very early age and knew I could never live in that environment. So, I wound up living and working in St. Louis and then in Chicago and then Detroit and I always have tried to be tolerant and respectful of all races. Five years ago I got laid off and wound up living and working in St . Louis again. Financially., it has been a struggle to keep food on my family's table and a roof over our heads. Truth be told, I'm not really doing it now. In the past week I have worked shooting video and stills and editing things about this incident for different people for over forty hours and I have no idea when, how much or even if I will get paid for any of it. I will not regret it though. It is the one thing I can do to try to make things better. I know I'll never understand what it's like to be black, but I feel like I have made a long trip from that little farm. And, I know I'll never reach the end of that trip, but I would like to encourage everyone to try to take a few steps forward. We have to try.
posted by DaddyNewt at 3:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [48 favorites]

DaddyNewt, beautifully said. Thank you for that.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:28 AM on August 18, 2014

One thing to consider in terms of the National Guard is that due to the long wars, they may actually have more experience in de-escalating riots than the police, and they may have soldiers who know how to do diplomacy. They may also be less jumpy on the trigger and more likely to know what real danger looks like.

Maybe, corb. Maybe. On the other hand, two words: Kent State.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:29 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

I got bored and look it up myself since nobody was around to do my homework in the middle of the night: The president could invoke the Insurrection Act as a way of deploying federal troops despite Posse Comitatus. Which would set off a shitstorm. So wuwei was right! I think the odds of that actually happening are extraordinarily low, however, since the number of people and geographical involvement is so low relatively speaking.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 AM on August 18, 2014

Limeonaire, in addition to all the other reasons why "shooting to stop" cannot be divorced from "shooting to kill", as a legal matter, guns are frequently considered to be "deadly physical force" by statute. For example, in New York, check out the definitions within the Penal Code for "deadly physical force" and "deadly weapon".

For MO, it would appear that guns are statutorily defined as deadly weapons, which is unsurprising. See how "deadly force" is defined in the justification defense chapter. It seems that MO prefers to define "deadly force" within individual chapters.

Also consider the fact that, in many states, including Missouri, the mens rea for murder is not purposeful ("I am shooting you in order to kill you!") but rather knowing ("I know or ought to know that shooting you is substantially likely to kill you!").

In other words, once you volitionally point a gun at somebody and start shooting them, you can't just say, "well, I was only shooting to stop them - not to kill them". If anything, that could theoretically make things worse: now you're talking about the use of deadly weapons and deadly force, but apparently in some sort of situation where you had felt inclined to hold back from potentially killing somebody.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:51 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

Sidenote: a friend is a federal LEO. He once made a very interesting observation: in situations where he had to in some way threaten violence, people were substantially more likely to comply when he brandished a telescoping baton, rather than a gun. Aside from the fact that situations which necessitate guns may be inherently more unstable, his theory was that it's easier to get more "theoretical" and/or "macho" when a gun promises sudden death, as opposed to a metal stick, which you know will fucking suck, but which will probably not kill you. Bonnie and Clyde went down in a hail of bullets, and that's sort of romantic. But, a straight up beating? Ennnnh, I'm going to give a hard pass to that. Cuff me and get me a lawyer.

Point being, while guns can be necessary, they can also often escalate situations. Well-trained officers already know this. They don't just bust out their most deadly weapon as their first instinct.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:25 AM on August 18, 2014 [19 favorites]

FWIW, yeah, you can definitely see the money exchange in the surveillance video.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:14 AM on August 18, 2014

What a grim 50th anniversary this year has been for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:16 AM on August 18, 2014 [29 favorites]

The Czech argument, and what this guy is asking people to think about, is that you can actually manage to "shoot to stop, not kill" by aiming only at the lower legs...

I think that arguing for non-lethal use of guns by the police by anyone who is progressive is a huge mistake because guns are inherently lethal and it's a serious malfunction of our society to ever think of them as the first, best solution to a problem, including policing. It's a film/tv fantasy that the police can safely shoot and disable someone because even ricochets off the bones of those lower legs could be quickly fatal and, more to the point, all those missed shots at at the lower legs can hit other people -- innocent bystanders -- and kill them. "Shooting to disable" leads exactly in the opposite direction that any progressive should want to go. I understand why you and other folk want to go in that direction, but it's a huge mistake. It's exactly the wrong way to think about this.

Just a heads up, Ivan Fyodorovich, I did read the linked articles. I said they were a critical look at the notion of shooting to stop vs. shooting to kill. I would count the Czech approach as a point in favor of my argument—which is only that shooting to stop as opposed to shooting to kill is a notion that exists. I am not arguing for any specific practice. I am speaking about this academically. My only point was to show that "shooting to stop" is something people are specifically trained to do—regardless of whether it has the effect they want (which yes, is what the article explores in more depth). People above didn't believe that was a way that police are trained, and to that, I say bullshit—that was why I linked the article. I also think the article is a bit more nuanced than you're presenting it as.

New surveillance video from the grocery store seems to show that Michael Brown paid for the cigarillos. It sure doesn't look like a robbery to me.

There is a definitive statement on this from Freeman Bosley Jr., Dorian Johnson's lawyer. From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on August 15: "The lawyer for Johnson, who was walking with Michael Brown when Wilson fatally shot Brown, said Johnson told authorities about the cigar theft earlier this week. 'He told them about the cigarillos and that Big Mike took cigarillos,' said the lawyer, former St. Louis Mayor Freeman Bosley Jr." What may be, of course, is that there was a cash transaction involved, too.

What frustrates me is when, in the course of making our arguments for justice, we ignore things that are already out there on the record. Again, I am absolutely on the side of justice for Mike Brown. But I don't think trying to argue our way out of things that have already been established in some way—like the very existence of "shoot to stop" as a strategy or statements by one of the key witnesses' lawyers—is useful. That leaves us vulnerable to easy attacks by our opponents in the fight for justice.
posted by limeonaire at 5:45 AM on August 18, 2014

A 'generational event' demands a generational change, editorial today in The St. Louis Post Dispatch.
posted by nangar at 5:59 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

EFF : Cell Phone Guide For US Protesters, Updated 2014 Edition
posted by jeffburdges at 6:25 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

If I was running PR for the protesters, I would have them line the streets when the NG comes in to town before anything else happens and greet them as liberators, requesting that they take over for the police permanently. That would send a very significant message.

That was pretty much the Catholic reaction when the British Army arrived in Northern Ireland.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Mr. Brown's mother, Lesley McSpadden, said on ABC's "Good Morning America" that she believes order will be restored in her city when there is justice for her son. When asked what justice looked like on the morning television interview, Ms. McSpadden said the Ferguson police officer, Darren Wilson, who shot and killed her son on Aug. 9 should be arrested and held "accountable for his actions."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

There could be a cash transaction in the course of a theft. If the clerk had asked for ID, but Brown did not provide it, and so the clerk did not want to sell them to him, then it still would have been theft for Brown to slap cash on the counter and take them anyway. Still not exactly the crime of the century.

As always, this issue mostly only exists to distract, confuse, and prejudice the public. Even if Brown had thumped his chest and bellowed basso profundo, "I AM A THIEVING-FILCHING THIEF WHO INTENDS TO MISAPPROPRIATE SOME TOBACCO PRODUCTS!" and then tattooed the storied tale of his legendary crime on his back, the reported incident had not been about a robbery, and such a misdemeanor is not a capital crime. You can't go around shooting people, especially unarmed surrendering people, not even if they might be naughty.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:47 AM on August 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

Ron Johnson is being tokenized. His statement last night was not written by him. You could see it in his expression. He was terrified.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:54 AM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

is the new argument that brown was the juggernaut
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:59 AM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Here is the cover of today's St. Louis Dispatch
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I recently realized that I’ve never, as an adult, driven past a car that’s been pulled over without looking to see the race of its occupants. Part of every black child’s education includes learning how to deal with the police so he or she won’t be locked up or hurt or even killed. Despite my advanced degrees and my light-brown skin, (July 2013)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:05 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Here is the cover of today's St. Louis Dispatch

Ugh. I guess maybe the front-page designer was going for a theme, but the inclusion of the bottom two stories on the front page—neither of which is about anything happening in St. Louis—seems like it will inevitably provoke and confuse people. I'm guessing the page designer was going for a "powerful" and "gripping" front page, but "Looted clinic raises Ebola threat" and "Islamic State forces flee assault" could definitely be misinterpreted as being local somehow.
posted by limeonaire at 7:12 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's hard to leave this thread and go do my work, but I have to. I just wanted to post this from the Quaker group, American Friends Service Committee, courtesy of @FeministaJones (who started NMOS):

Just four miles east of where Mike Brown was gunned down, Dred Scott is buried at Calvary Cemetery. The infamous 1857 Dred Scott decision denied Scott his freedom on the basis that African Americans could not be citizens and therefore had no standing to sue in an American court. In the words of then Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger B. Taney, “[African Americans] had no rights which the white man is bound to respect.”

The murder of Mike Brown is the latest in a myriad of cases when the reality of Taney’s words has been proven to be true in America.
posted by emjaybee at 7:14 AM on August 18, 2014 [17 favorites]

Ugh. I guess maybe the front-page designer was going for a theme, but the inclusion of the bottom two stories on the front page—neither of which is about anything happening in St. Louis—seems like it will inevitably provoke and confuse people. I'm guessing the page designer was going for a "powerful" and "gripping" front page, but "Looted clinic raises Ebola threat" and "Islamic State forces flee assault" could definitely be misinterpreted as being local somehow.

Not really. Newspapers get folded in half. That's literally what "below the fold" refers to.
posted by empath at 7:26 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Um...I've written and edited for newspapers before. I get how they work. Thanks.

The thing about the Post-Dispatch, though, is that so often, it's clumsy and doesn't work. Me—and many others—calling out the Post-Dispatch is definitely nothing new. Photographer David Carson is doing great work this week; the individual writers and designers vary greatly.
posted by limeonaire at 7:29 AM on August 18, 2014

White House “Did Not Know” National Guard Was Being Deployed In Ferguson
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:29 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I may have missed it here or elsewhere, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is how the cops, in all their riot gear, do not appear to have any kind of identifying information available, like a name, badge number, or even a badge. Is there any way to know that all these people are actually even police officers?
posted by Room 641-A at 7:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Live video feed (to start in a bit) of the family's press conference re: autopsy
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 AM on August 18, 2014

The way you know is that if they shoot you and then get a raise for it, they're definitely cops.
posted by elizardbits at 7:38 AM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

DIGITAL ERA @SLIKK_DARKO
@TheePharoah nah u gone be cool, u just ain't gone forget that, so the boys shot him?

Bruh. @TheePharoah
@SLIKK_DARKO yeah man. 7 times i think

DIGITAL ERA @SLIKK_DARKO
@TheePharoah from behind ?

Bruh. @TheePharoah
@SLIKK_DARKO the first two was, the next 5 werent, he turned around

So: Since no wounds on back of body, cop fires twice at fleeing Brown -- misses. Brown turns to surrender. Cop continues firing. Brown, hit, covers up and crumples. Fatal shot to top of head.

"Charging" comment pretty irresponsible.
posted by Trochanter at 7:38 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

(And of course, how would you report any individual cop?)
posted by Room 641-A at 7:38 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Sticherbeast: "is the new argument that brown was the juggernaut"

I'M THE JUGGERNAUT, BITCH!

I can't help but laugh at such a dark joke these days. God damnit, I am sad and angry and powerless and I hate white people (and I'm white) and I hate cops (I'm not a cop) and I wish black people in America could finally have the freedom and rights they so deserve, and equal respect and dignity.
posted by symbioid at 7:40 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Charging" comment pretty irresponsible.

I agree, it's odd that Dr. Baden speculated like that - it just seems totally unnecessary.
posted by sallybrown at 7:41 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"We're not allowing people to congregate," another officer tells us at then QT
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:52 AM on August 18, 2014

I recently realized that I’ve never, as an adult, driven past a car that’s been pulled over without looking to see the race of its occupants.

I'm white and I do this. One police car = white driver. Two cars = black or Latino. Three cars = black. I have never been wrong about this.
posted by desjardins at 7:53 AM on August 18, 2014 [17 favorites]

Watching the Brown family/attorneys press conference right now. Lead attorney lists the questions Mike's mother had for the pathologist. Last one, which no one could answer, was "What else do we need to give them to arrest the killer of my child?"

Heartbreaking.
posted by misskaz at 7:56 AM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Justice Department officials were so mindful what that video would do to racial tensions in the area that they asked Jackson not to release it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:59 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

"One bullet entered forehead above right eyebrow and reentered head area more than once,."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 AM on August 18, 2014

Ryan J. Reilly ‏@ryanjreilly
"We're not allowing people to congregate," another officer tells us at then QT #Ferguson pic.twitter.com/mRCcl3scgQ

Trymaine Lee ‏@trymainelee
Officers are now telling protestors they can no longer stand "static" in the parking lot of the Quick Trip station. This had been ground 0.

Is this a First Amendment violation? Serious question.
posted by desjardins at 8:13 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"One bullet entered forehead above right eyebrow and reentered head area more than once,."

Can someone explain that?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:19 AM on August 18, 2014

Can someone explain that?

Could be that it bounced off of something internal and ricocheted, could be that he was on the ground already and it bounced off the pavement.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on August 18, 2014

Dr. Baden says all of Brown's wounds except the final shot to the head were survivable.
posted by sallybrown at 8:21 AM on August 18, 2014

Is this a First Amendment violation? Serious question.

Yes, but a state of emergency supersedes constitutional rights.
posted by Foosnark at 8:22 AM on August 18, 2014

The NYT autopsy article does a good job explaining the multiple entry/exit wounds.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:24 AM on August 18, 2014

Could be that it bounced off of something internal and ricocheted,

That doesn't seem to explain the "re-entry" though.

could be that he was on the ground already and it bounced off the pavement.

Oh. Right. Oh shit.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:24 AM on August 18, 2014

Yes, but a state of emergency supersedes constitutional rights.

"state of emergency". Nothing is happening right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:24 AM on August 18, 2014

So what rights are suspended during a state of emergency? Or does it vary?
posted by limeonaire at 8:26 AM on August 18, 2014

could be that he was on the ground already and it bounced off the pavement.

There would be marks on the pavement where the bullets hit. Nobody has documented any, despite having access to the site for over a week. Besides, there hasn't been any evidence yet that he was shot at close range (powder burns, etc.)

I don't think he was shot laying on the ground.

Cops (generally) use fragmenting bullets - those fragments are more likely to ricochet around. Makes a bigger mess in a person, but also safer for bystanders.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:28 AM on August 18, 2014

Ferguson divides the right: Conservatives split on blaming the police or the New Black Panthers

"The general thinking is that the right is divided between the tough-on-crime conservatives who will always give the police the benefit of the doubt, and the more libertarian-leaning conservatives who view police abuses as violations of civil liberties and an extension of out-of-control government. “If you want an indication about where someone sits on the dividing line between conservative and libertarian, sometimes it’s as simple as how they answer this question: how do you feel about cops?” The Federalist’s Ben Domenech wrote Thursday."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:29 AM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

"Officers are now telling protestors they can no longer stand "static" in the parking lot of the Quick Trip station. This had been ground 0.
Is this a First Amendment violation? Serious question."

It's almost certainly private property, so there's no First Amendment right to protest there.

The public streets and sidewalks in the area are a more difficult question, but the government can regulate the "time, place, and manner" of public protests, and among the acceptable reasons to do so are preventing traffic congestion and, more problematically, to curb actual or predicted violence. It's reasonable to ask people to protest on the sidewalks and not the streets (and to require protestors to allow normal pedestrians going about their business to get through -- I haven't heard protestors aren't, just another thing the police could ask) ... they've protested on the street several day and many municipalities require a permit for a street protest and that's generally considered reasonable. Clearing the area entirely would be problematic. It will also depend on the availability of equally acceptable (to the "reasonable protestor") nearby protest locations.

Some of the things police are asking of protestors are the sort of thing you ask a pre-planned, polite protest (like when PETA protests outside my local courthouse, they don't really want to interrupt traffic, they just want to do their performance art protest in a visible location, so they happily get their permit, stay X feet away from the thoroughfare, chat with the cops controlling traffic, and close up shop at a designated time) ... but those are the wrong things to be asking for in this situation. It's, like, nice when protestors are willing to follow guidelines intended to ease the burden on the city (police time and cost, pedestrian and traffic access, normal access to businesses), but a lot of those are conveniences, not the law, and I don't think they're appropriate in this case.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:32 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

"Charging" comment pretty irresponsible.

I agree, it's odd that Dr. Baden speculated like that - it just seems totally unnecessary.

It might be interesting to see if any previous police shootings were exonerated based on a "charging" analysis from Dr. Baden. It just seems like a practiced assertion, you know? That in a police shooting, the police are going to ask if a fatal wound could have been the result of action on the victim's part, so he might as well offer one up.
posted by rhizome at 8:37 AM on August 18, 2014

"Ferguson divides the right: Conservatives split on blaming the police or the New Black Panthers"

The conservatives think the 'new black panthers' killed an unarmed black man?
posted by el io at 8:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

In other news: Federal Appeals Court Demands Longer Sentence For Officer Who Delivered Brutal Beating
posted by rhizome at 8:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

They are arguing over who is to blame for forcing them to work so hard to keep the narrative that we live in a post-racial society intact.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 9:00 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The Coming Race War Won’t Be About Race
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:06 AM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

This fist-shaking of everyone’s racial agenda distracts America from the larger issue that the targets of police overreaction are based less on skin color and more on an even worse Ebola-level affliction: being poor

There's a lot of evidence that wealthy people of color are targets. It's class for sure, but the systemic problem of race may supersede that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:08 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

It really it seems like it comes down to this:
* Brown was not at a close distance to Wilson when he died, nor was he armed
* one bullet when into Brown's right eye and exited through his jaw
* the presumably last bullet entered the top of Brown's head and killed him

Can anyone come up with a plausible scenario in which Wilson would be justified in firing both of those bullets?
posted by crayz at 9:08 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

In other news: Federal Appeals Court Demands Longer Sentence For Officer Who Delivered Brutal Beating

The police union tried to keep him from losing his job, all the way until he went to prison. What a completely fucked up system.
posted by empath at 9:09 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I don't think I can recall a time in recent history where an entire police department has gone rogue.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:09 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Perez Santiago ‏@Tone314
I'm not taking pictures of that shit. Y'all can draw your own convulsions [sic], but the KKK are def here & marching.

Super.
posted by desjardins at 9:10 AM on August 18, 2014

"Yeah, sure, I know, it's a free country, and I ain't got the right.
But I got a badge. What do you got?" -West Side Story
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:10 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I don't think I can recall a time in recent history where an entire police department has gone rogue.

They're all rogue. All the time. Police forces every where are filled with corrupt, violent thugs and people that support them or cover for them.
posted by empath at 9:11 AM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

The police union tried to keep him from losing his job, all the way until he went to prison. What a completely fucked up system.

That's what an advocate does in an adversarial system. It's fucked up but the least fucked up way we have. If it wasn't for the protection of the union the police would be even more the mercenaries of a city executive's keeping the serfs under control in the fiefdom.
posted by Talez at 9:13 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The Coming Race War Won’t Be About Race

Wow, that IS the first time I've ever heard of the Jackson State shooting.
posted by sallybrown at 9:13 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

They're all rogue. All the time. Police forces every where are filled with corrupt, violent thugs and people that support them or cover for them.

Filled with? Fine? I'm talking about an entire department acting this way after the DOJ and the FBI are investigating.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:14 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

That's what an advocate does in an adversarial system.

Horseshit. I got fired from a union job at a grocery store for not showing up one day. The union (rightfully) did jack shit to defend my job. Maybe I should have just beaten a customer half to death instead.
posted by empath at 9:14 AM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Horseshit. I got fired from a union job at a grocery store for not showing up one day. The union (rightfully) did jack shit to defend my job. Maybe I should have just beaten a customer half to death instead.

The police unions probably defend the police, because that's what their membership wants, it's what the dues go towards, and thus it's what the intention of the police union is to be - the voice of the common member, because that's what a union is. A union is not a neutral arbiter, it's a biased organization designed to assuage the fears of their members. And I'd wager that a lot of the police have fears about shooting someone and being charged with it.

So it's totally possible that union pie cards feel that if they don't defend these guys, they'll get voted out.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on August 18, 2014

Ferguson PD do seem to have forgone any kind if attempt to even appear impartial or like they are investigation or are in any way doing anything other than protecting their own and punishing Ferguson citizens for caring.
posted by Artw at 9:22 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Yeah, that Kareem Abdul Jabbar article above is great.
posted by lkc at 9:22 AM on August 18, 2014

So it's totally possible that union pie cards feel that if they don't defend these guys, they'll get voted out.

Yes, I agree that police want the union to defend violent criminals, as long as they happen to have a badge. What I don't agree with is "That is what advocates do." Unions don't have to defend bad employees, and they certainly don't have to defend the jobs of convicted criminals and not all unions do. Most unions will do nothing for you if you get caught stealing or embezzling, for example.
posted by empath at 9:24 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Via The Economist:

THE shooting of Michael Brown, an 18-year-old African-American, by a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, is a reminder that civilians—innocent or guilty—are far more likely to be shot by police in America than in any other rich country.

Linked in there is another article from March: Cops or soldiers? America’s police have become too militarised
posted by inigo2 at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I'd wager that a lot of the police have fears about shooting someone and being charged with it.

I don't see why. I mean, it's possible this police murder will have consequences, but that's only because the police reaction has drawn the worlds attention.
posted by el io at 9:29 AM on August 18, 2014

And I'd wager that a lot of the police have fears about shooting someone and being charged with it.

The fact that you have to wager says enough.
posted by crayz at 9:31 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Ferguson, MO and Police Militarization
posted by homunculus at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Days after a New Orleans police officer shot a suspect in the head and the NOPD forgot for a few days to tell the public, our not-terribly-popular Chief of Police Ronal Serpas announced his retirement (though he "felt no pressure [to do so]"). He was clearly not loved by the City Council who at some point had discussed ousting him. Our new interim Chief is Michael Harrison, a 23-year veteran of the NOPD.

I bring all this up because it is so hard right now not to view every single law enforcement-related news story through the lens of what's happening in Ferguson. Without it I would never have questioned the motives behind Serpas' sudden departure, or the race / gender / religion of his replacement, or who specifically chose his replacement, or why. Is this a proactive move before something egregious comes to light? Was he forced out, or did he honestly choose to retire at this moment with no prompting?

In case it's not clear, I'm personally happy to see Serpas go and hope that Harrison can do a far better job. After days of being mentally mired in the Ferguson drama I'm just suspicious of every single thing I'm seeing.

Which, you know, is probably a good thing. Just exhausting.
posted by komara at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2014

Incidentally, in civil cases, at least regarding peace officer licensure (what lets them be a cop), other officers do not have a problem testifying against or offering evidentiary support to see their licenses suspended or stripped from them. This includes St. Louis area police.

It's just criminal investigations in which cops feel compelled to lie to cover up other cops? In civil cases they turn truthful? What?
posted by el io at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't think I can recall a time in recent history where an entire police department has gone rogue.

I recommend having a look at the Protest and Assembly Rights Project's "Suppressing Protest: Human Rights Violations in the U.S. Response to Occupy Wall Street", then.

Two examples given in The Atlantic's article summarizing the report, "14 Specific Allegations of NYPD Brutality During Occupy Wall Street":

A member of the Research Team witnessed officers arresting a protester. A number of officers took the protester to the ground, and restrained him as he lay face-first on the street. The Research Team member heard the protester cry out, and knelt down to observe the arrest. She then witnessed an officer pull back his leg and kick the protester hard in the face. Another witness also saw the incident. Efforts to obtain the badge number of the responsible officer were thwarted by police, who refused to identify the officer and then took him away in a police van.

A journalist reported that an officer shoved a legal observer, also a retired judge, against a wall after she demanded that the officer stop beating a protester. The legal observer described the incident in an interview: "the officer said, 'Lady, do you want to get arrested?' And I said, 'Do you see my hat? I'm here as a legal observer.' He said, 'Do you want to get arrested?' And he pushed me up against the wall."

Meanwhile in Ferguson:

Ferguson PD officer threatens to shoot livestreaming journalist

Audio cannon used against peaceful protestors

NYPD's attack on Occupy was likely the 1st full-formed instance of militarized US police being used to suppress a protest. Ferguson PD is working from the same playbook.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

NTPD's attack on Occupy was likely the 1st full-formed instance of militarized US police being used to suppress a protest.

What about the RNC and DNC protests of the past couple elections?
posted by el io at 9:41 AM on August 18, 2014

NTPD's attack on Occupy was likely the 1st full-formed instance of militarized US police being used to suppress a protest.

I feel like you might have missed a lot of the labor movement history from last century.
posted by elizardbits at 9:45 AM on August 18, 2014 [29 favorites]

County investigation: Michael Brown was shot from the front, had marijuana in his system
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:45 AM on August 18, 2014

"While Case declined to comment further, citing the ongoing investigation into Brown’s death, another person familiar with the county’s investigation told The Washington Post that Brown had between six and eight gunshot wounds and was shot from the front"
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:47 AM on August 18, 2014

How many marijuanas did he have?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:47 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

County investigation: Michael Brown was shot from the front, had marijuana in his system

Here it comes, part two of operation vilify the victim.
posted by sallybrown at 9:48 AM on August 18, 2014 [20 favorites]

As we all know, marijuana turns people into violent monsters.
posted by brundlefly at 9:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [37 favorites]

Marijuana has been used an excuse to arrest and kill minorities for almost a hundred years. It's well past time to stop.
posted by empath at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [26 favorites]

I can pretty much guarantee I've got marijuana in my system. Lord save us.
posted by Trochanter at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

I can never remember how much marijuana I can have before I'm supposed to be summarily executed by a law enforcement officer.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [35 favorites]

As we all know, marijuana turns people into violent monsters.

Probably Chief Jackson will have a press conference to show us all Reefer Madness.
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

Look, I'm not some naive bumpkin who is shocked at the brutality or the collusion of individual police officers or even entire police divisions, and if you want my police brutality bona fides feel free to check my commenting history. I specifically wondered about recent examples of entire police forces basically acting in defiance of State, DOJ and FBI oversight.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:51 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

As we non-sarcastically know, it is perfectly possible to test positive for marijuana if you've used it within like a month.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:51 AM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

marijuana in his system? maybe he was just trying to hug the cop, see if he had any donuts on him.

Please. This is some reefer madness bullshit.
posted by desjardins at 9:52 AM on August 18, 2014

Well, how about this then: I can pretty much guarantee I'll have MORE marijuana in my system in a few hours.
posted by Trochanter at 9:53 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

All things being equal, having marijuana in your system should pretty much be considered exonerating evidence against a charge that you committed a violent crime, in direct proportion to the amount of marijuana you had in your system.
posted by crayz at 9:53 AM on August 18, 2014 [20 favorites]

Sigh. Just this morning, while reading articles about Ferguson, I saw two headlines regarding white musicians who smoke weed (Ryan Adams, in the NYTimes magazine, and a post on Gawker about Miley Cyrus honoring a deceased pet with a bong taller than a first grader). No shaming, no vilification, just something cutesy about how they like to toke up. But a black person with weed? OMFG, everyone take cover!!
posted by palomar at 9:54 AM on August 18, 2014 [19 favorites]

The Ferguson PD have made it clear they wish to vilify this young man. The marijuana leak is just another part of this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:55 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

I wonder what Darren Wilson was on.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 9:56 AM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

Artw: "As we all know, marijuana turns people into violent monsters.

Probably Chief Jackson will have a press conference to show us all Reefer Madness."

The dread MARIHUANA!
posted by symbioid at 9:56 AM on August 18, 2014

Sorry, I didn't mean to snap. This case is hitting a little too close to home, and I should have continued to stay away from it and from posting in this thread. I appreciate all the information everyone has been conveying, as it's the only source of news I can stand for the moment.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:57 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

What is that Terence McKenna quote (where he attributes it to Timothy Leary, though Leary doesn't apparently recall saying anything like it)?

"Drugs have been shown to cause insanity and irrational behavior by those who are opposed to their use" or something along those lines.

Yep.
posted by symbioid at 9:59 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Who would be perturbed by the presence of marijuana, who wasn't already firmly on the killer's side? If this is an attempt to vilify Brown, then it's hilariously tone-deaf.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2014

All the Washington Post article says, citing an anonymous source, is "Brown had marijuana in his system when he was shot and killed." That is so incredibly vague—you could be considered to "have marijuana in your system" if various substances are found in your hair, for instance, months after you'd smoked. I understand that the Post is trying to get out in front with whatever info there is—this is why I've long considered the breaking-news race to be bullshit—but it feels so irresponsible to report this without context regarding how much was in his system, how it was tested for, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

On the one hand, I'm fully aware this is a histrionic reaction; but on the other hand, I'm still quietly starting to brainstorm about "who do I know in other countries who would let me crash on their couch if I had to leave the U.S. in a hurry for my safety?"

I don't live in Ferguson, but I do live in New York, where Eric Garner's death under similar circumstances came very shortly before Michael Brown's, and I have the sinking feeling that any major Kent-State scale of unrest erupting there will spread.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's just criminal investigations in which cops feel compelled to lie to cover up other cops? In civil cases they turn truthful? What?

Makes sense actually. They might not think Bob should be a cop anymore, but prison? That's too cruel.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:02 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Makes sense actually. They might not think Bob should be a cop anymore, but prison? That's too cruel.

I wish they could go through that whole process then before they decide whether or not to file criminal charges - this way, regardless of the verdict, if they shouldn't be carrying a badge, they wouldn't be carrying a badge. But I'm sure there's some legal stuff about prejudicing future juries or something.
posted by corb at 10:07 AM on August 18, 2014

Interesting chart with which to compare the shot pattern.
posted by rhizome at 10:07 AM on August 18, 2014

Shoplifting with marijuana in his system - the evidence is really piling up. Once the Ferguson PD finally release a redacted copy of the sternly worded piracy warning letter Mike Brown received from Comcast this is gonna be looking like case-closed.
posted by crayz at 10:08 AM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

I wonder what Darren Wilson was on.

Power is a hell of a drug.
posted by Artw at 10:09 AM on August 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

Next thing you know they'll say he downloaded a car.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:10 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

Makes sense actually. They might not think Bob should be a cop anymore, but prison? That's too cruel.

Almost all cops in prison are put into protective custody. They're not stupid. They know what 23 hours of isolation per day does to a person.

One would hope it would go further to see solitary confinement in all its forms abolished. But instead the thin blue line conspires to see its ilk go unpunished.
posted by Talez at 10:11 AM on August 18, 2014

It's the common reasons you're off target in various directions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:16 AM on August 18, 2014

To apply that chart, you'd have to know where the target was, though. And how Brown was positioned.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:18 AM on August 18, 2014

Oh good, now we get a full news cycle of REEFER MADNESS. I can't wait.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:18 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Shoplifting with marijuana in his system - the evidence is really piling up.

I've known my racist brother-in-law since we were 13 years old. He used to sell drugs, shoplifted regularly, got arrested for arson when he was 15 or so, eventually went to jail for selling weed. And for some reason he thinks that a video of this kid stealing some cigarillos means killing this kid was okay.
posted by empath at 10:19 AM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

From a comment above:

Jimmy Fallon a few nights ago:

The news is just terrible. Of course, everyone is talking about what’s going on in Ferguson, Missouri. It's a pretty tense situation right now and it seems like it just keeps getting worse. The police have actually just started arresting journalists. It's true. But when the cops saw the crew from CNN, they were like, “Well, you guys are fine.”

OMG IT'S TRUE

Trymaine Lee ‏@trymainelee
Ordered to leave QT. Officers abrasive. For some reason CNN crew allowed to stay. Everyone else not so kindly told to leave or face arrest.

posted by desjardins at 10:19 AM on August 18, 2014 [21 favorites]

I feel like you might have missed a lot of the labor movement history from last century.

I'm well aware of the history of the labor movement, and in the majority of instances where military-like force was used by the state against demonstrators, it perpetrated by actual military units (examples: 1, 2, 3).

The militarization of municipal police has attracted so much comment (even from conservatives) because it really is a new phenomenon.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:20 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

MisantropicPainforest: "Next thing you know they'll say he downloaded a car."

Fuck you, he would if he could (but he's dead).

One more act of piracy stopped before it was committed.
posted by symbioid at 10:21 AM on August 18, 2014

You know, I really don't like marijuana use but even I think it's ridiculous to try to use weed as a trump card for OMG SUCH A BAD PERSON shorthand for teenage boys.

It's like saying 'teenage girl was wearing more eyeliner than her mother thinks is appropriate!' OMG NOES THE WORLD IS ENDING.
posted by winna at 10:22 AM on August 18, 2014

Radley Balko isn't a conservative.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:22 AM on August 18, 2014

Marijuana in your system, carrying a pack of Skittles, just walking somewhere…what the hell difference does it make?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

To apply that chart, you'd have to know where the target was, though. And how Brown was positioned.

The target was in front of the gun, police training is for center mass, and Brown was positioned in front of the gun. Whether his hands were up or down, the shooter drifted left.
posted by rhizome at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2014

For more historical context, a documentary on the Newark riots
posted by gorbweaver at 10:26 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah, not sure shooting tips are what the Fergusson PD need.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:27 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

"Shoplifting with marijuana in his system - the evidence is really piling up. Once the Ferguson PD finally release a redacted copy of the sternly worded piracy warning letter Mike Brown received from Comcast this is gonna be looking like case-closed."

GIANT NEGRO HOPHEAD INFLAMED BY STOLEN RAP MUSIC KILLED WHILE ATTACKING POLICE
posted by klangklangston at 10:31 AM on August 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

IF YOU SEE THIS DANGEROUS POT HEAD DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ASK QUESTIONS SHOOT ON SIGHT
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:34 AM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

GIANT NEGRO HOPHEAD

He was on the marihuanas, not a West Coast IPA.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

klangklangston: "GIANT NEGRO HOPHEAD INFLAMED BY STOLEN RAP MUSIC KILLED WHILE ATTACKING POLICE"

You forgot the scare quotes around "MUSIC".
posted by brundlefly at 10:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

PHOTOS: The Shocking Images From Yet Another Night Of Clashes In Ferguson (Talking Points Memo)
posted by andoatnp at 10:36 AM on August 18, 2014

With the National Guard on the scene, @GovJayNixon has lifted the curfew in #Ferguson.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on August 18, 2014

in the majority of instances where military-like force was used by the state against demonstrators, it perpetrated by actual military units

I mean really I can provide just as many instances of when it was caused by the police (Columbine, Lattimer, NY Draft Riots) so I'm fine with saying that Occupy was not the first instance of militarized police violence against protesters.
posted by elizardbits at 10:41 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

And I'd wager that a lot of the police have fears about shooting someone and being charged with it.

If only there were something our brave officers could do to minimize that risk, such as not shooting people who were lying down on the ground, or not shooting people who were running away, or not shooting people who were unarmed, or not shooting people in vehicles that only vaguely resemble a vehicle they were looking for, or going to the range until they have sufficient skill to not shoot random passers-by when intending to shoot someone else.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:43 AM on August 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

Governor Nixon's responses have pretty much ended his aspirations to run for higher offices. I hope.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:45 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

If he hadn't used in the last 24 hours, it's irrelevant.

If he had used in the last 24 hours, he was even less of a threat.

(holds on to slim hope that spread of marijuana use/popularity will make this smear less of a thing to more Americans)
posted by emjaybee at 10:45 AM on August 18, 2014

A new eyewitness who recorded footage of Michael Brown on her phone says he was chased down by officer Darren Wilson. Piaget Crenshaw has come forward with her account of the immediate events prior to Brown's murder. “I knew the police shouldn't have been chasing this young boy and firing at the same time.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:46 AM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

With the National Guard on the scene, @GovJayNixon has lifted the curfew in #Ferguson.

Didn't the official call-in of the Guard talk about closing streets and stuff? So the curfew would've been secondary anyways.
posted by inigo2 at 10:47 AM on August 18, 2014

A new eyewitness

If this is legit then what the hell took so long
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:48 AM on August 18, 2014

showbiz_liz, from this article: Piaget Crenshaw said she has waited until now to release the video because she feared for her safety and was waiting for police to release Wilson's name, which they did Friday. She also said police could have released her video Friday — when they also released surveillance footage that they said showed Brown stealing cigarillos from a convenience store before the shooting. She said police had her video because they confiscated her phone.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Radley Balko isn't a conservative.

Not exactly, no. He does have quite a history of acting as a 'GOP shill', though.

That's somewhat of a derail, but since Balko is coming up a lot in the national discussion of this stuff, it's worth noting.
posted by still bill at 10:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've seen Piaget Crenshaw's name mentioned in other articles this week, so it's unclear to me why she's being called a "new" eyewitness.
posted by palomar at 10:50 AM on August 18, 2014

Ok- so the footage being released is what's new, but the footage doesn't show the shooting, just the body. (It's blurred out in the version I just saw, if anyone was worried.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:51 AM on August 18, 2014

A new eyewitness

If this is legit then what the hell took so long

Her name has been out there from the beginning--I remember seeing it as long ago as last Tuesday, I think. She was involved in either taking or posting the video that's been circulating recently, which the pro-police faction is claiming proves Brown was charging the officer (even though the video does not show that).
posted by sallybrown at 10:51 AM on August 18, 2014

palomar, I believe this is the first time we have seen Officer Wilson on video next to Michael's body
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:52 AM on August 18, 2014

I wonder how long it will take before they start disparaging the character of witnesses, too. Obviously Dorian Johnson's credibility has already been compromised.
posted by desjardins at 11:01 AM on August 18, 2014

This Storify of the known facts on the shooting by Shaun King seems good. Can anyone poke holes in it or is he right?
posted by emjaybee at 11:03 AM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

If this is legit then what the hell took so long

Seriously? With all thats been going down *right* outside of her window, you think that she might be a little concerned with her safety?

She saw a guy get gunned down by police. She says the police confiscated her phone; they knew who she is. With the subsequent all hell breaking loose in the town, I don't think its much of a stretch to feel a bit worried about your physical wellbeing in a situation like this.

She got the tapes out. She's a wittness to the crime and now she's safe, public, and has a lawyer. Just because the news cycle is moving instantaneously with this tragedy, doesn't mean that all the pieces are going to be available a minute after the whole thing goes down.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:03 AM on August 18, 2014 [35 favorites]

Police Militarization Escalates Even As Violence Declines -- And There's A Good Chance It's Going To Get Worse
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:18 AM on August 18, 2014

I honestly think there's almost no chance it's going to get worse. There are no curfews tonight, and I'm hoping the National Guardsman are a hell of a lot more mature than the St. Louis County and Ferguson PD.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:19 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think the "no stopping or standing" rule around the QT parking lot and on West Florissant could create some trouble, even without a curfew.
posted by sallybrown at 11:22 AM on August 18, 2014

I honestly think there's almost no chance it's going to get worse.

it can always get worse.
posted by empath at 11:25 AM on August 18, 2014

I honestly think there's almost no chance it's going to get worse.

That's what everyone thought after Johnson showed up.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:26 AM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

I would not put a lot of hope in the National Guard, unfortunately. Billmon has done some research.

Hopefully they've rooted out the racists, or this is going to be more gasoline on the fire.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:28 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

In case anyone wants to donate to the Brown family, here is a link to the Mike Brown Memorial Fund on gofundme, run by the family's attorney.
posted by sallybrown at 11:28 AM on August 18, 2014

I honestly think there's almost no chance it's going to get worse.

They're talking nationally.

the inevitable result, as Greenfield notes, seems to be a lot more militarized police -- and now, private security guards... everywhere. Just in case.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:28 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

OK, well, I am praying it doesn't get any worse.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:35 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Stark Racial Divisions in Reactions to Ferguson Police Shooting

By about four-to-one (80% to 18%), African Americans say the shooting in Ferguson raises important issues about race that merit discussion. By contrast, whites, by 47% to 37%, say the issue of race is getting more attention than it deserves.

and

Fully 68% of Democrats (including 62% of white Democrats) think the Brown case raises important issues about race that merit discussion. Just 21% of Democrats (including 25% of white Democrats) say questions of race are getting more attention than they deserve. Among Republicans, opinion is almost the reverse – 61% say the issue of race has gotten too much attention while 22% say the case has raised important racial issues that need to be discussed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I am the 37%.
posted by rocketman at 11:38 AM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

I'm just going to go out on a limb and suggest that Republican/Democrat views on this subject correlate with the ethnic break downs of each party.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:39 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm just going to go out on a limb and suggest that Republican/Democrat views on this subject correlate with the ethnic break downs of each party.

Doesn't look like it. Showbiz_liz's pull-quote specifically lists 25% of white Democrats vs. 47% of whites overall.
posted by nobody at 11:47 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

43% of whites voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, for a point of comparison.
posted by empath at 11:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

say the shooting in Ferguson raises important issues about race that merit discussion ... say the case has raised important racial issues that need to be discussed

But I guess that's a big part of the problem, isn't it? I feel a great deal of sadness, anxiety, and disgust over what's going on in Ferguson, with a little bit of hope mixed in, that maybe something will change? That maybe something will happen? Yet I'm sitting at my desk, mostly working and keeping up only tangentially with news updates out of there. Re-tweeting and adding a "Like" - hell, even posting on Metafilter - sure keeps the discussion going, but what does it change?

This feels a lot like 9/11 to me - I just feel worthless and helpless here in my office, while something huge is going on, and my instincts tell me I need to just walk away, and go pitch in. I need to go stand somewhere in Ferguson. I need to hold a sign, or knock on doors, or just march with others to say "this ends here."

Yet then I get a cold fear, that even if I left everything behind me and got involved, nothing would change. I'd lose it all for nothing, and next month there would be another outrage, another killing of an unarmed young black man by a cop, and all I'd have to show for it is an arrest record and a handful of nothing.

I just want an answer: what can I do, hundreds of miles away and so hungry for things to change?
posted by rocketman at 11:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Charles Pierce: The Limits Of Everything
posted by homunculus at 11:50 AM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

In Brief: A Thought Experiment on Ferguson
posted by ryoshu at 11:55 AM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

The very fact that this set of numbers (80% to 18%) exists gives lie to this number (47% to 37%)
posted by stenseng at 11:55 AM on August 18, 2014

The Pierce piece is haunting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:56 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"So You’re Horrified By What Happened in Ferguson: What Are You Doing About It?"

Didn't make me feel much better, but at least didn't make me feel worse.
posted by jessicapierce at 11:58 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Self-link: I wrote a piece last night that was heavily informed by this thread. Race, Ferguson and the Rashomon Effect
posted by naju at 11:58 AM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

I wish they could go through that whole process then before they decide whether or not to file criminal charges - this way, regardless of the verdict, if they shouldn't be carrying a badge, they wouldn't be carrying a badge. But I'm sure there's some legal stuff about prejudicing future juries or something.

Unfortunately, these type of processes usually take place after a trial has happened or its definitive that a trial will not be happening. I can't speak at all for how or if Wilson will find his peace officer license in jeopardy, but cases do proceed even if a criminal trial finds the person innocent. There's a lower standard of proof, which makes proving a crime (to justify the discipline) much easier than in a criminal court. If Wilson's license becomes subject to such scrutiny, it will probably be two or three years from now.
posted by Atreides at 11:59 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wish it would change, but seeing so many ugly disgusting comments from people who claim to be the same country-people as I let alone the same species makes me despair, rocketman.

It's infuriating, because if you do nothing, nothing changes, if you do the hippie-dippie pacifism game, all they do is smear you and nothing changes, except maybe maybe a little shuffling of the chairs. If you get violent or call for anything other than peace, you're a thug, or worse (especially if you call for a larger scale violent reaction)...

I feel hopeless, and I imagine this is how black people all over America feel almost every day when they have to think about this shit. Not all black people, of course. There's that guy upthread, you know, the one black dude at the otherwise all-white pro-cop rally... He's a nice middle-class dude.

Kareem Abdul's op-ed certainly makes a very valid point. I don't think it's fair though, because I do most certainly believe that race plays a huge factor in the quickness to pull the trigger.
posted by symbioid at 12:04 PM on August 18, 2014

Obama. Statement at 4:00pm, Briefing Room. Topics: #Ferguson and Iraq.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:06 PM on August 18, 2014

This was mentioned briefly upthread, but here's an article about it: Amnesty International has come to Ferguson

In an unusual move, the global rights organization Amnesty International has dispatched a delegation of observers and organizers to Ferguson, Mo., to provide direct support to community members and to observe the police response to protests. The 13-person delegation, which arrived late last week, was the first of its kind deployed by Amnesty within the United States, the organization said.

posted by desjardins at 12:09 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

A fairly conservative Christian on my Facebook just shared this...and it's wise and compassionate. Not what I've come to expect from a lot of Christians.

4. Explain that this is a body of Christ issue.

For many – especially those who aren’t ‘Black’, this is simply news. But for others – especially in the African American community – this is something entirely different.

In Michael Brown, they see a familiar story.
All too common of a story.
An ongoing common story that seems to have no end.
Some may call it a nightmare.
In Michael Brown, they see Trayvon Martin.
In Michael Brown, they see a son, a husband, a father, a nephew, or perhaps…even themselves.

So, I ask again, if our black sisters and brothers in Christ are angry, grieving, hurting, and mourning…can’t we at least listen, seek to understand and mourn with them?

Are we the body of Christ or not?
posted by emjaybee at 12:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [23 favorites]

A Unified Statement of Action to Promote Reform and Stop Police Abuse (ACLU PDF)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Obama. Statement at 4:00pm, Briefing Room. Topics: #Ferguson and Iraq.

Ladies and gentleman, some brief thoughts of two of the most prominent contemporary arenas where the United States is deferring to our military industrial complex to solve political problems.
posted by crayz at 12:14 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

There are a couple of Livestreams up currently, covering the events and gatherings that are going on right now. They may be up and down intermittently as they charge batteries and run to Walgreens to get sunscreen.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/revandujo (On air)

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/feelinsofly (Off air currently, getting sunscreen, should be up again soon)
posted by spinifex23 at 12:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

"He was going for my gun" is the "The dog ate my homework" of police shootings.

He ran into my bullets.

He ran into my bullets six times.
posted by triggerfinger at 12:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [18 favorites]

I wish it would change, but seeing so many ugly disgusting comments from people who claim to be the same country-people as I let alone the same species makes me despair

Same here. I never believed this was a "post-racial society" but I am appalled at just how virulent and widespread racism is. I guess it's like what I used to believe about sexism -- that it was mostly the province of a very few loudmouth assholes, plus some relatively low-level stuff that is slowly but inexorably getting better every day.

But apparently it smolders under the surface and can flare up into a conflagration at any time. I'm wondering whether there is any solution to racism or if we are doomed to it until human civilization burns out completely.

Certainly there are some things that can be changed -- we can require our cops to wear cameras, for instance. We can take away their military toys. We can get some laws on the books about how the racial makeup of police forces aligns with that of the communities in their jurisdiction. This doesn't stop racism, but it might stop some tragedies and abuses.
posted by Foosnark at 12:24 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

It was in spite of white people that any civil rights were won at all. They had to be forced through the court system. This is why we shouldn't have popular votes on civil rights issues (I count Voter ID laws as a civil rights issue, but I don't want to get derailed here).
posted by desjardins at 12:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

Apparently Obama and Holder are meeting right now. From the "Daily Guidance and Press Schedule" email I got from the White House Office of the Press Secretary a little while ago:

1:15PM THE PRESIDENT meets with Attorney General Holder to receive an update on the situation in Ferguson, Missouri
posted by limeonaire at 12:36 PM on August 18, 2014

I never believed this was a "post-racial society" but I am appalled at just how virulent and widespread racism is.

I think a big part of it is that it isn't straight up racism. People who think Brown deserved to get shot are not (generally) avowed racists. It's the same class of people who thought the woman who sued McDonalds was an idiot and that the Kent State Kids had it coming, too.

So, really, there are two problems. One, they fail to see that Brown's death is just yet another marker of the systemic racism holding over from centuries of this shit. Two, they are severe enough in their discipline to believe that people who are suspected of wrongdoing deserve whatever the cops do to them.

The first is hard, because really, unless you are close to the problem, it is actually invisible.

The second - well, there is no hope for that. My FB feed is filled with "My parents beat me as a child and that's why I am so wonderful now" posts from people who have apparently never seen Cool Hand Luke or The Lonliness of the Long Distance Runner, and if they had seen it, they didn't ever get it.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:37 PM on August 18, 2014 [16 favorites]

Same here. I never believed this was a "post-racial society" but I am appalled at just how virulent and widespread racism is. I guess it's like what I used to believe about sexism -- that it was mostly the province of a very few loudmouth assholes, plus some relatively low-level stuff that is slowly but inexorably getting better every day.

In many cases, I'm sure, a lot of those who make racist statements and arguments probably don't interact with anyone other than people who share the same skin color. The absence of someone of another color doesn't exclude being exposed to the problems of race in the United States, for example, but definitely increases the likelihood. I remember as a high school sophomore being exposed to racism in the South (my god!) which was directed at my friend who was Asian. We were simply walking out of a store and raggedy car sped by and a woman screamed a racial epitaph at my friend. As a white guy, unless you're the one perpetuating the racism, you pretty much never encounter it. When you do, it's shocking, and I think unless you do, it's very easy not to resort or to refuse to resort to fact that race does play a significant role in how the world works.

When all the people you know, love, and interact with on a daily basis are just as white as you, it's incredibly easy to not think about race. It's also incredibly easy to allow racial stereotypes to inform how one thinks and what one says. The less you know, the more you fear, and it's always easy to hate what you fear.
posted by Atreides at 12:38 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

@ Foosnark

"Same here. I never believed this was a "post-racial society" but I am appalled at just how virulent and widespread racism is. "

Not trying to be rude but if you're black or pay attention to race in the country, the pervasiveness and depth of racist and bigoted attitudes would not catch you by surprise. It's not under the surface but lives very much at surface level. It's not going to change, this is the way it has been, it is the way it is, and this is the way it will always be.
posted by RedShrek at 12:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

My son had immunology this morning. As we waited, there was an old black couple sitting next to us, quietly talking about ferguson. Boy, 11, turned to this couple and said, "my mom told me about what is happening there. That is so messed up. I didn't know black people were treated so badly in our country, and I promise that I will never be ok with that. I will fight for all people to be equal. I promise."

I cried. The little old lady cried. And the little old man said, "son, I will hold you to that promise, you hear?" And then he held his hand out for Boy to shake.

We can all be equal partners in this country, we just have to find a way to disempower those who are not with us, and empower those who are.
posted by dejah420 at 12:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [123 favorites]

I'm wondering whether there is any solution to racism or if we are doomed to it until human civilization burns out completely.

Without getting too deep into the weeds of some overwrought evo-psych just-so story about tribalism, I think we can safely postulate that there is some natural propensity toward discriminating against other humans in the sense of "OK, these people (or these kinds of people) are safe and these other people are strangers and we need to be on our guard against them.

Even granting that, though, I think that we can make things better than they are now by considering how our racial history has been constructed and how white supremacy is maintained in contemporary American society. It's not like there aren't actionable steps, examples of progress to point to or a lack of careful analysis of race relations.

What is needed, now as it was 50 and 150 and 300 years ago, is the presence of political will to actually address the ongoing crisis of white supremacy in a multiethnic society.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Obama prediction: condemnation of the looters, calls for calm and peace, "trust that justice will be served," blah blah blah.
posted by desjardins at 12:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Obama prediction: condemnation of the looters, calls for calm and peace, "trust that justice will be served," blah blah blah.

Definitely need Luther on retainer for this one.
posted by AceRock at 12:46 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

In many cases, I'm sure, a lot of those who make racist statements and arguments probably don't interact with anyone other than people who share the same skin color.

This isn't true. I'm Indian American and have heard about a million racist things from white people about all kinds of nonwhite groups. And antisemitic things. It's amazing.
posted by sweetkid at 12:46 PM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

"my mom told me about what is happening there. That is so messed up. I didn't know black people were treated so badly in our country, and I promise that I will never be ok with that. I will fight for all people to be equal. I promise."

This is the first tiny, faint glimmer of hope I've allowed myself all week. Thanks.
posted by scody at 12:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh, and on non-preview -- while the openly racist, dehumanizing word-vomit on various comment threads and chats across the Internet are obviously disgusting and demonstrate, shall we say, a shallow understanding of the issues, I think their worst effect is to make other white people who don't have potty-mouths believe that they are not benefiting from or participating in the system of white supremacy because they are not actually using those words. Cf. Letter from a Birmingham Jail....
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

In addition to tear-gas enthusiast and weapon hallucinator Mike Brooks CNN also has Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara opining on things, just to add to the general stew of shittiness there.
posted by Artw at 12:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

In many cases, I'm sure, a lot of those who make racist statements and arguments probably don't interact with anyone other than people who share the same skin color.

Yeah, I don't think this is true either. When I lived in Montana, which has like half a dozen black people, I never heard anything about blacks. Nothing. (Not saying no one was racist, it just never came up.) In Milwaukee, which is majority POC? Hoo boy. I can't get through a week without hearing something racist.
posted by desjardins at 12:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I just saw a newspaper article saying the KKK is planning on coming to Ferguson, and honestly, I have never been so thankful for the National Guard being called out in my life, because I can't imagine how that can't be the absolutely worst thing possible right now.
posted by corb at 12:51 PM on August 18, 2014

In many cases, I'm sure, a lot of those who make racist statements and arguments probably don't interact with anyone other than people who share the same skin color.

That's often a factor -- my grandmother-in-law who lives in North Nowhere, MO, where the black population is 0.5%, is horribly racist. And it's weird because she seems so damned nice in every other way. I think normally she wouldn't think about black people, but she has zero respect for Obama because of his skin color, and when she was traveling once she commented about how she'd have liked that one restaurant they stopped at if only her server had been white.

OTOH, the Ferguson cops have certainly been racist -- calling black protesters "animals", and apparently also letting out racist slurs over the phone to callers asking for information -- and they don't have the excuse of not having any contact. It makes me wonder if every other interaction between the police and the citizens has been so confrontational, too.

Not trying to be rude but if you're black or pay attention to race in the country, the pervasiveness and depth of racist and bigoted attitudes would not catch you by surprise.

I do think I was kind of naive about it, just like I said I was kind of naive about sexism. I want to believe that people are better than this, I'm not a direct target of either most of the time, and I don't hang out with people who express racist or sexist views if I can help it. So it's a surprise to me when so much of it comes out at once.
posted by Foosnark at 12:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

sweetkid, me too! I think there's few enough Indian-Americans in the US that these folks aren't threatened by us. It's the model minority thing, I guess.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:57 PM on August 18, 2014

When I lived in Montana, which has like half a dozen black people, I never heard anything about blacks. Nothing. (Not saying no one was racist, it just never came up.) In Milwaukee, which is majority POC? Hoo boy. I can't get through a week without hearing something racist.

You're completely right. It's very simple to say and do all the right things about equality when there is very little relative diversity. It's when there is a lot of diversity where the rubber meets the road. I'm reminded of those analyses of Obama's election results in '08 where it was plain as day that he overperformed in places with very large African American populations and in places with very small African American populations and underperformed in places with medium levels.
posted by Justinian at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah...re: the KKK, I've seen people on Twitter mentioning that they've already seen their presence on the ground in Ferguson. And I posted on Twitter after I got back from getting lunch an hour ago: This is so vague it's almost nothing, but I saw four skinhead-looking dudes in a row driving slowly around shops in Brentwood, in heavy pickup trucks. Something about them just made the hair on my arms stand up. When I searched Twitter for any info afterward, I saw someone noting that "white Facebook" has a rumor going around about potential trouble in Brentwood and/or at the Galleria tonight. So I wonder if these dudes are showing up early for some fight they think is going to happen down here.

In more positive news, this Washington Post analysis by a graduate of my high school is excellent.
posted by limeonaire at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2014

"He was going for my gun" is the "The dog ate my homework" of police shootings.

He ran into my bullets.

He ran into my bullets six times.

The next thing we'll hear is that they've charged him with theft of the bullets.
posted by Grangousier at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Charlie Pierce piece linked upthread by homunculus really is haunting. I read it and now I'm even more depressed about this story than I've been so far.

Then Ferguson happens, and we realize, for a moment, that we have set the limits for the American dream, the American idea, and the American experiment within the confines of that unabsolved sin. There are certain things that we will not allow democracy. And there is a boy dead in the street, a strange and bitter crop indeed. Old songs in different times, but the same blood on the same leaves.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Matthew Sitman, To Bind Up the Nation's Wounds:

I think it has to be clear by now that we [white Americans] do bear that moral debt and are complicit in the ongoing sin of racism and white supremacy, even if too few of us are willing to admit it. [...] Beyond policy fixes is the necessity of a national reckoning with the reality of racial injustice in this country. [...] What I am concerned about is what happens after the situation in Ferguson is "resolved." And I don’t see how we can really have that national reckoning apart from the ways Coates lays out in his essay, addressing the full breadth of the way blacks have been marginalized, punished, and plundered throughout our history. We can take away the police’s military equipment, but we also need "a revolution of the American consciousness." The question we face is not just "Why do the police in Ferguson have that equipment?" but "Why did they turn those arms against black people?" Beneath policy debates lurks the problems of the human heart, and the hate and indifference residing there.

posted by scody at 1:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

The next thing we'll hear is that they've charged him with theft of the bullets.

That would fit right in with the link upthread.
posted by stenseng at 1:01 PM on August 18, 2014

" In Milwaukee, which is majority POC? Hoo boy. I can't get through a week without hearing something racist."

I was going to say something similar. The whole "never interact with people who don't look like them" is soooo far off base. I've known white people who lived in predominantly black neighborhoods and worked and interacted in other ways with black people (and other PoC) every day and were/are virulently racist. Often they attribute it to the experiences they associate with living in a predominantly black neighborhood.
posted by MikeMc at 1:02 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Ferguson's election turnout is horrible by design.
posted by empath at 1:03 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Does anybody know who the white shirt wearing colonel's emblems and a brown and gold department patch slapping everybody on the back after these press conferences is? To me he looks like the leader, even if he's not in charge.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Here's Wilson's friend's account of what he told her about the shooting. I believe this is a transcript from a radio interview on CNN. (Warning: will set your bullshit detector off.)
posted by desjardins at 1:06 PM on August 18, 2014

@MikeMc,

I hear that so many times and I have always found that sentiment striking. I am a black guy who for almost a decade has lived and worked with White people predominantly. I get to hear some really racist things but funny thing is I never turned racist towards White people. I guess I'm different.
posted by RedShrek at 1:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is there any verification that this rando even knows Wilson?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:08 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah that's about as believable as the reports from the father's cousin's roomate's boss or whatever earlier.
posted by Justinian at 1:10 PM on August 18, 2014

Not from what I've seen, so I probably shouldn't have posted it.
posted by desjardins at 1:10 PM on August 18, 2014

This isn't true. I'm Indian American and have heard about a million racist things from white people about all kinds of nonwhite groups. And antisemitic things. It's amazing.

No, I apologize, as I should have phrased it in a much better manner than to imply that it was the exclusive grounds for racism amongst white American. From my own experience, however, I've met plenty of people who hold specific beliefs or refuse to acknowledge problems, because they live in a bubble. Perhaps that bubble can be as simple as living on the other side of a city with a large black population, but never truly interacting with that community.
posted by Atreides at 1:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Wow. I like how this totally bullshit random person manages to vilify the accounts of the "quote-unquote eyewitnesses" who were actually there, but seems to expect that their third-party hearsay anecdote will be treated like gospel.
posted by palomar at 1:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

desjardins: "Here's Wilson's friend's account of what he told her about the shooting. I believe this is a transcript from a radio interview on CNN. (Warning: will set your bullshit detector off.)"

This is the transcript from the Dana show linked upstream somewhere. Not CNN, Dana is a right-wing radio call in show that broadcasts all over, from Dallas, and is very popular in MO.
posted by dejah420 at 1:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Any word on the Obama presser?
posted by futz at 1:15 PM on August 18, 2014

#MikeBrown was shot TWICE as many x as ALL firearms discharged by British Police last yr
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on August 18, 2014 [20 favorites]

There's a stream at whitehouse.gov/live, but nothing's happened yet.
posted by desjardins at 1:17 PM on August 18, 2014

Here's Wilson's friend's account of what he told her about the shooting. I believe this is a transcript from a radio interview on CNN. (Warning: will set your bullshit detector off.)

No shit.

The final shot was to Brown's forehead, and the teenager fell two or three feet in front of Wilson, the caller said.

A shot at this range would have left powderburns. That autopsy says there were none, although they did not analyze his clothing - however, if the head shot was last.... well, he'd definitely have burns, and apparently did not.

Besides, everyone so far has said that the cop was 30-35 feet away when Brown was shot.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is there any verification that this rando even knows Wilson?

One of Jamelle Bouie's followers responds how closely that call-in report follows a fake and now deleted FB post, claiming to be from Wilson. (Second link is Breibart, so used donotlink)
posted by gladly at 1:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Besides, everyone so far has said that the cop was 30-35 feet away when Brown was shot.

Everyone who was there. What about the semi-anonymous testimony of people who heard stuff from other people? Doesn't that deserve equal treatment? /myconservativeuncle
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [16 favorites]

I wonder whether someone is keeping a running list of the items the public wants to see or know. Among the info I want to see:

1. Darren Wilson's record from his years with the dissolved Jennings police department
2. Any of Wilson's disciplinary records that aren't in his Ferguson Police Department file
3. All video of the shooting from the cellphones that were confiscated by police
4. The police reports directly pertaining to the shooting of Mike Brown
5. The percentage of Ferguson police officers who actually live in Ferguson
6. What happened in the conversation leading up to the shoplifting incident
7. What tests the medical examiner did to find Mike Brown had marijuana in his body
8. Why purchased body cameras weren't in use in Ferguson, and when they will be
9. Why Darren Wilson hasn't been detained, and whether police know his whereabouts
10. Why no ambulance was called when Mike Brown was shot
11. Why a nurse on the scene was not allowed to help when Mike Brown was shot
12. Why Mike Brown's body was left on the scene for four hours after he was shot
13. What role Charter and AT&T had in censoring local cable and Internet last weekend
14. Who's astroturfing Twitter with "Michael Brown is GUILTY! Forget that thug and stop being bitches!"

What else are we missing right now?
posted by limeonaire at 1:24 PM on August 18, 2014 [37 favorites]

And off we go.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:25 PM on August 18, 2014

Obama feed is starting.
posted by zug at 1:25 PM on August 18, 2014

Starting with Iraq again.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:27 PM on August 18, 2014

No tie. Grrrrrr....
posted by pearlybob at 1:27 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Of course he's starting of with Iraq, that's what more important to the man.
posted by RedShrek at 1:28 PM on August 18, 2014

#MikeBrown was shot TWICE as many x as ALL firearms discharged by British Police last yr

This blew my mind so much I was sure it was an exaggeration and had to go find a source. I couldn't find 2013, but in 2011/2012 the British Police force has had 5 incidents in which a firearm was discharged (pdf), and in 2012/2013 not a single person (pdf) was fatally shot by the police.

FIVE.

FIVE INCIDENTS.

I CAN'T.
posted by Phire at 1:30 PM on August 18, 2014 [23 favorites]

Obama started on Ferguson.
posted by andoatnp at 1:31 PM on August 18, 2014

What else are we missing right now?

15. Mike Brown's juvenile record (If it exists it will get out because the Gentle Giant thing has to be put to rest once and for all).
posted by MikeMc at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

So far absolutely nothing we didn't already know.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2014

Is it just me or does he look exhausted?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"He was on the marihuanas, not a West Coast IPA."

Time to brush up on your archaic drug slang.
posted by klangklangston at 1:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Anyone interested in getting disciplinary records from the Ferguson PD may want to read this disturbing article, also linked too above.
posted by shothotbot at 1:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Now he's condemning the "looting, carrying guns, and attacking police."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:33 PM on August 18, 2014

Obama leads by blaming the protesters.
posted by triggerfinger at 1:34 PM on August 18, 2014

Now he's condemning the "looting, carrying guns, and attacking police."

oh for the love of god fuck off

(Obama, not you.)
posted by Phire at 1:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

16. Darrell Wilson's medical records for the "medical treatment" he got after the incident.
17. Who leaked the "traces of marijuana" result to the press?
posted by sallybrown at 1:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Holder going to Furguson. Hope he doesn't wear a hoodie.
posted by shothotbot at 1:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Is it just me or does he look exhausted?

Moreso than usual. I have to imagine Obama looks in the mirror and sees himself wearing an American flag pin, defending more war in Iraq and saying about Ferguson that "America is a nation of laws", and some part of him dies a little more.
posted by crayz at 1:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

I wouldn't use the British police as rolemodels. It was only 3 years ago they had their own unrest sparked by the murder of a black man.
posted by gorbweaver at 1:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

What else are we missing right now?

15. Mike Brown's juvenile record (If it exists it will get out because the Gentle Giant thing has to be put to rest once and for all).

If that exists, I don't think they're allowed to release it, are they? See this section of U.S. Code.
posted by limeonaire at 1:36 PM on August 18, 2014

18. Any proof that protesters actually did fire Molotov cocktails etc at the police.
19. Name of the officer who threatened he would shoot the reporter last night.
posted by sallybrown at 1:36 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

Q; If it was proper to militarize?
A: One of the great things has been our ability to maintain distinction between military and law enforcement, must be preserved. After 9/11, understandably, folks saw local communities that were ill equipped for catastrophic terrorism. People of good will decided they should get proper equipment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:36 PM on August 18, 2014

20. Why Chief Jackson released the video and other materials about the robbery when expressly asked not to by the DOJ and other parties.
posted by Foosnark at 1:38 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Obama looks and sounds bone-deep exhausted.

I have to note the contrast between what he was saying about Iraq ("they're claiming x but doing y"), and how he's talking about Ferguson. Because really, the police are doing the same thing: claiming they won't use tear gas and then doing it. Claiming people will be allowed to assemble and then forcing them back.
posted by misskaz at 1:38 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

National Guard will be used in a "limited and appropriate" way.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:38 PM on August 18, 2014

asockpuppet: "Does anyone else wonder if Wilson is now in a country that does not have an extradition treaty with the US?"

Well, rumor in the Dallas area is that he's at his dad's house here. And there aren't any English speaking countries that don't have extradition treaties, are there?
posted by dejah420 at 1:39 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, he's also trying to keep WWIII from sparking in Ukraine, and ISIS from decapitating everyone in Iraq, and the intransigence of Congress, and about a million other things. So being tired as fuck makes sense, especially since that's the look of every president halfway through the second term. On the other hand, he ran for this job knowing all this…
posted by klangklangston at 1:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Criticizing carrying guns? Really? Not that I personally recommend it, but a bunch of white guys carrying guns and committing crimes on top didn't get any condemnation or national guard, they got handled the seized cattle back and apparently are going to be allowed to do whatever they want because the government isn't going to do anything.
posted by tavella at 1:40 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

20. Why Chief Jackson released the video and other materials about the robbery when expressly asked not to by the DOJ and other parties.

Eh, I thought of this one, too, but I think he gave us his answer on that: Blah blah bullshit FOIA blah blah people wanted it blah blah.
posted by limeonaire at 1:40 PM on August 18, 2014

Does Texas have an extradition treaty with the U.S.?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:40 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

If that exists, I don't think they're allowed to release it, are they?

I agree that I've always thought it was illegal but I've seen it done at least 3-4 times in the past year or so so idk what the fuck is going on anymore.
posted by elizardbits at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2014

31% of Missourians have passports.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2014

On the other hand, he ran for this job knowing all this

Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job
News in Brief • Politics • war for the white house • barack obama • ISSUE 44•45 • Nov 5, 2008
posted by shothotbot at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Dave Zirin on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's essay:

There is so much good in Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s Time Magazine essay about the protests following the police killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., that it almost feels churlish to raise any kind of criticism. [...] The problems with Kareem’s argument come into sharper focus when he brings up the issues that “keep the poor fractured by distracting them”. He brings up “immigration, abortion and gun control” as reasons why poor people “never stop to wonder how they got so screwed over for so long.” Yet immigration and abortion are not “distractions”. They are about race, gender, and, yes, CLASS oppression. [...] The point of all of this is to say that fighting racism, sexism, and anti-LGBT bigotry is not a distraction from building a united struggle but a precondition for building a united struggle.

posted by scody at 1:42 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

"If that exists, I don't think they're allowed to release it, are they?"

No but these things have a way of "leaking". I wouldn't be surprised that if he did have a juvenile record it surfaces in the next few days. You have to keep churning the waters lest the mud settle to the bottom.
posted by MikeMc at 1:42 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't use the British police as rolemodels. It was only 3 years ago they had their own unrest sparked by the murder of a black man.

Just one? Sadly, sounds like an improvement...
posted by stenseng at 1:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

21. The liquor store clerk's account of his interaction with Brown and Johnson, and/or accounts from customers present.
posted by sallybrown at 1:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

limeonaire: "20. Why Chief Jackson released the video and other materials about the robbery when expressly asked not to by the DOJ and other parties.

Eh, I thought of this one, too, but I think he gave us his answer on that: Blah blah bullshit FOIA blah blah people wanted it blah blah."

Can we FOIA the supposed foia requests? I mean, is there any way to make them prove that accusation? I mean, if nobody knew about it, how would they know to foia it?
posted by dejah420 at 1:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

If Obama doesn't quickly get a hold of the Ferguson situation this may be his Katrina.
posted by futz at 1:45 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think people have been talking about doing that, dejah420. I don't know whether anyone has done so yet, though—and given how long FOIA requests can take, it might be a while. (Though that, too, is a reason why it seems weird that the video's release would've been in response to "FOIA requests," as those usually take forever.)
posted by limeonaire at 1:46 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Q: Have you considered going to Ferguson?
A: I have to be very careful about not pre-judging these events before the investigation is done. (wtf?)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:46 PM on August 18, 2014

Cops refusing protesters everywhere. Say they can't protest #Ferguson
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:47 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

If Obama doesn't quickly get a hold of the Ferguson situation this may be his Katrina.

Meaning what, exactly? Another bald-faced abandonment of poor people of color that has no long-term political consequences whatsoever?
posted by ryanshepard at 1:47 PM on August 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

"feel left behind"..you're joking, right?
posted by RedShrek at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2014

That too.
posted by futz at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2014

20. Why Chief Jackson released the video and other materials about the robbery when expressly asked not to by the DOJ and other parties.

Eh, I thought of this one, too, but I think he gave us his answer on that: Blah blah bullshit FOIA blah blah people wanted it blah blah.

Also a request from the DOJ doesn't carry any legal weight. There's not much they could do to stop it other than ask politely.
posted by MikeMc at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2014

Talking about how young African American and Hispanic boys are often suspended. But he's talking about it SO passively and sleepily, I don't know who is paying attention.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:49 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

"There are young Black men who commit crimes. And we can argue about why they happen... or what have you, but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted, because every community has an interest in public safety."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:50 PM on August 18, 2014

Dude is deflecting hard. That's not the question Ann Compton asked you brah.
posted by RedShrek at 1:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

What's happening now just keeps making me think of Carl Sandberg poem "Grass". It almost seems like a natural process the way our culture responds to and absorbs (or rather doesn't) information that it doesn't want to accept and respond to in ways that might bring about positive change.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

"There are young Black men who commit crimes. And we can argue about why they happen... or what have you, but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted, because every community has an interest in public safety."

Is this something Obama said? If so...WTF?
posted by sallybrown at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2014

"I passed legislation dealing with racial profiling in Illinois."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2014

Prosecuted by bullet.
posted by futz at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

sallybrown, yes, I'm typing as fast as he talks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2014

but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted

most crimes aren't prosecuted with bullets
posted by pyramid termite at 1:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Shorter Obama: "In conclusion, the United States is a land of contrast."
posted by sporkwort at 1:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [21 favorites]

More preaching less doing.
posted by RedShrek at 1:54 PM on August 18, 2014

contrast - isn't that black vs white?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted

I wish the kid was alive to be prosecuted. Because, he'd be fucking alive.
posted by stenseng at 1:55 PM on August 18, 2014 [21 favorites]

I am so glad I do not even have local channels right now

There's a St. Louis sports-and-talk radio station based in my office building, down on the 2nd floor. Their booth has a window looking out into the atrium and they have the live feed on a speaker there.

I made the mistake of taking a break and walking around down there at some point last week and some caller was blathering about how the "real" issue nobody is talking about is all the black-on-white violence that happens. (Really? Where?) If I could have reached right through that speaker and slapped the caller, I'd have been sorely tempted.
posted by Foosnark at 1:55 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

@rembert: "this is how you answer a question when you get called on and you haven't done the reading"
posted by Phire at 1:56 PM on August 18, 2014

I was hearing some good things on the national ESPN feed this weekend. Made me think that sports could be a vector for change for the good, the way integration of the military was.
posted by shothotbot at 1:57 PM on August 18, 2014

If you guys want to rewind and watch the speech, you can do that on the youtubes.

That was a hot mess of a speech. Begging your pardon, Mr. President, but I'm a middle class, middle aged, white-passing, woman...and I thought that was a hatfull of bullshit, I tell you what. I cannot even imagine how angry this would make me if I were faced with dogs and racist cops shooting at me. WTF, Mr. President? W.T.Everloving.F.?
posted by dejah420 at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

Obama prediction: condemnation of the looters, calls for calm and peace, "trust that justice will be served," blah blah blah.
posted by desjardins at 2:43 PM on August 18 [1 favorite +] [!]

How did I do?
posted by desjardins at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

There are policemen who commit crimes. And we can argue about why they happen... or what have you, but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted, because every community has an interest in public safety.
posted by fings at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [45 favorites]

Anderson Cooper's there now.
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:58 PM on August 18, 2014

I wish the kid was alive to be prosecuted. Because, he'd be fucking alive.

To be fair to Obama, isn't that his point? If you gank some some cigars, then you shouldn't be shot on sight, you should go through due process.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:59 PM on August 18, 2014

Q: Have you considered going to Ferguson?
A: I have to be very careful about not pre-judging these events before the investigation is done.

You don't have to pre-judge. You can go to Ferguson and listen to the people there. Just listen. Here their side of the story, comfort them, learn about the situation and take from them some ideas for progress. Doing anything less is dismissing the entire thing, as far as I'm concerned.
posted by naju at 1:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

@desjardins,

You did good, kid. You did good.
posted by RedShrek at 2:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here's wishing President Obama a speedy recovery from the tranq dart.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [28 favorites]

but if they commit a crime, they need to be prosecuted

Young black men, sure. Not cops though.
posted by jeather at 2:02 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Q: Have you considered going to Ferguson?
A: I have to be very careful about not pre-judging these events before the investigation is done.

The live-stream I was watching fuzzed out for a second after this; I'm pretty sure that was Obama dropping the ball. Jesus Christ. I'd lose my job in a heartbeat if I was bullshitting that hard.
posted by furnace.heart at 2:03 PM on August 18, 2014

How did I do?

You've won today's game of milquetoast bingo.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:06 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

After the financial meltdown of 2008, he had no issues calling out Wall St fat cats but now he finds it hard to prejudge.
posted by RedShrek at 2:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Plenty of us thought he was tapdancing pretty hard to avoid hurting banker feelings back in 2008, though.
posted by klangklangston at 2:08 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Perhaps, he's setting it up for when the DOJ announces major civil rights violations by the Ferguson PD it won't seem as prejudiced and targeted.

...

Hope is the catchphrase, right?
posted by Atreides at 2:10 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

This is a really bad moment for Obama. Unconscionable and inexcusable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Ferguson has hired Common Ground Public Relations to manage their crisis.

Here's their crisis management page

Media Training page: "While most PR firms spend a lot of time creating news releases and making a big production out of the distribution, Common Ground Public Relations relies heavily on our ability to develop multiple creative story angles appropriate for a wide range of media – including traditional print, broadcast and online/social media."

"The Team"
posted by Weeping_angel at 2:13 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

I could be reading Obama all wrong, but I tend to look at him like a poker player. The face you see is not the cards. It can't be. I imagine if he thought there was a chance of bringing charges on Wall St., he'd have been much more temperate in his words about them.

Before his previous statement, he was on the phone with the governor of MO, backtracked even to say some nice things about the guy. Directly following, the governor put Ron Johnson in charge and spent a whole day seemingly echoing sentiments that the cops should cool it.

Given that he just spoke with Holder, I am actually heartened (with my poker lens) that he offered up no support, even explicitly mentioning that he had to steer clear of any potential optics that his own view was influencing anything.
posted by droomoord at 2:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I haven't seen this many white people disappointed in a black guy since Magic Johnson got HIV.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

“Reparations for Ferguson,” Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Atlantic, 18 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 2:20 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

1 every three years would be a vast improvement over 1 every 28 hours (that I mentioned in a previous link in this thread, in fact, to the document that analyzes that value). Yeah, I think that's a lot of people that would be very much alive.
posted by symbioid at 2:20 PM on August 18, 2014

"The Team"

Oh man, awkward (predictable?). And the firm is Chesterfield-based, to boot.
posted by limeonaire at 2:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

magic johnson played basketball - obama played america
posted by pyramid termite at 2:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I could be reading Obama all wrong, but I tend to look at him like a poker player. The face you see is not the cards.

Yeah, of course not. I think DOJ is doing its best. Honestly so. However, Obama is not. Putting the Ferguson nightmare in the same press conference with Iraq, TWICE, is not something that I approve of.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:24 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

FAA ban extended through August 25.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:29 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

futz: "If Obama doesn't quickly get a hold of the Ferguson situation this may be his Katrina."

"Doin' a heck of a job, Whitey."
posted by symbioid at 2:29 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

So, honest but maybe stupid question, given the political feed-back bubble we tend to live in here in DC, what information do you think Obama has been getting on Ferguson? I doubt he's sitting there watching live streams. Given everything else currently on his plate, I'm assuming most things are being relayed and filtered through advisors and assistants. I wonder if that colors his perception at all?

Edit: no horrible pun intended.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:30 PM on August 18, 2014

The Obama, Master of 11th Dimensional Chess meme explanation every time the man hoarks up some weak-sauce public statement is every bit as tired and baseless as the benign explanation of racist micro-aggressions. Someone who is as masterful at verbal judo as some people seem to think he is... he'd have done a fuckton better in making progress than he has.

And I subscribe to the idea that he's actually accomplished more than many lefties give him credit for. But when he stinks it up he stinks it up; it's not all super seekret strategery.
posted by phearlez at 2:31 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

I would like to assume the president knows more than Metafilter. But I don't know.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:32 PM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

Weeping_angel: "Ferguson has hired Common Ground Public Relations to manage their crisis."

Wow. Those are some very white people. I mean, like paler shade of white, white people. Country club white, golf white, glow in the dark, white people. Hell, they don't even employ anyone with a tan.
posted by dejah420 at 2:36 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

"Can we FOIA the supposed foia requests?"

You can FOIA FOIA requests themselves; most state sunshine laws require some sort of public log of FOIA requests be reported regularly (not in depth, just a brief summary); Missouri requires a response within 3 business days but does allow fairly liberal extensions when the 3-day limit is too onerous. (It does look like 911 calls require a court order in Missouri to get them released, just interesting to note as I flip through their law.)

You can fairly safely assume that every government body in Ferguson is currently overwhelmed with more FOIA requests than their FOIA officer can fulfill in a timely fashion; media will be FOIAing the shit out of every claim government makes. I would expect some delays on releasing the FOIA information because most local governments don't have a mechanism for backup FOIA support when there's a sudden surge in FOIA requests, and most states require your FOIA officer to undergo state-mandated training and follow particular procedures and sign off on all the requests. (In fact this would be a useful service state government could provide to local governments, FOIA surge backup support from their own FOIA office.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:37 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

The PR firm might explain the twitter astroturfing someone mentioned above.
posted by tavella at 2:37 PM on August 18, 2014

Seriously? A kid gets slaughtered in the street, people protesting it are being treated like enemy soldiers in their own hometown, and Obama thought the *important* thing to talk about was that black kids should definitely be prosecuted for crimes (that we don't even know if they actually committed.)
posted by tavella at 2:08 PM on August 18 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

This seemed really weird to me - a sop to the right wing viewers, I guess? It's like Obama cannot stop being Obama and trying to appeal to everyone.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 2:38 PM on August 18, 2014

He should probably get a mefi brief

This would be the best/worst askme of all time.
posted by furnace.heart at 2:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

Ehhhhh...I've had work-related contact with people from Common Ground Public Relations on a number of occasions, and I can't imagine them doing something like that. It actually is a reputable PR firm in this area, its pervasive whiteness aside.
posted by limeonaire at 2:40 PM on August 18, 2014

" It's like Obama cannot stop being Obama and trying to appeal to everyone."

To be fair, he's probably afraid that if he comes out too hard for Brown, some new smear will pop up and it will be Remember When Obama Defended That Black Terrorist Guy? Being cadgy as fuck is understandable here. It's not leadership, and it's not what would best serve Ferguson or the US, but it's understandable.
posted by klangklangston at 2:42 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Just now on twitter: Paul Hampel ‏@phampel :
A St. Louis County cop told me the department is in process of cutting off all access into #Ferguson at this time. And: The department is placing large concrete barriers now...pics on his stream.
posted by dejah420 at 2:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

God, who cares? Does he think he's going to ruin HRC's chance at the White House if he comes out and pretends to be the president he'd promised he'd be back in 2008?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

I would like to assume the president knows more than Metafilter

Go back and look at what happened when Obama spoke about Trayvon Martin's murder.

Seriously, between the media and the law, there is nothing Obama can do here that won't end up making the situation worse. He can't send in the armed forces, because of the law and the fact that the media would turn this into Obama's Military Takeover. He condemns that cop, and that cop becomes the public hero of 47% of this country, exactly like George Zimmerman did.

The best he can do is utter platitudes and stay the hell out of the way. This is what he's doing, because while you may not remember the timeline of the Trayvon Martin case, he does, and he's not going to help this cop become the Next Hero Of The White Revolution. So, that's what he did -- despite the fact that I'm sure he knows that he's just kicked off an amazingly large shitstorm on twitter from his own supporters.

I don't know who can win at this, but there is literally nothing Obama can say or do about this that isn't going to get half the country utterly enraged at him, and if he's smart, he'll go for the half he can have a rational discourse with later to try to explain why.

His best hope was Jay Nixon stepping up, and Jay Nixon hasn't really done that.
posted by eriko at 2:45 PM on August 18, 2014 [48 favorites]

“Why Obama won’t give the Ferguson speech his supporters want,” Ezra Klein, Vox, 18 August 2014

The problem is the White House no longer believes Obama can bridge divides. They believe — with good reason — that he widens them. They learned this early in his presidency, when Obama said that the police had "acted stupidly" when they arrested Harvard University professor Skip Gates on the porch of his own home.

posted by ob1quixote at 2:45 PM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

God, who cares? Does he think he's going to ruin HRC's chance at the White House if he comes out and pretends to be the president he'd promised he'd be back in 2008?

I think he's more concerned about giving angry white people a reason to turn out in droves in November.

If Republicans get 60+ seats in the senate (unlikely, I know), they will impeach him and Biden.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2014

I would like to assume the president knows more than Metafilter. But I don't know.

I think my point is more that, when we are posting to metafilter, I am assuming most of us aren't flanked on both sides by ostensibly intelligent and well-repsected peers explaining all the reasons why we just don't KNOW FOR CERTAIN whether something is true or not (especially given the tons of inaccurate information flying around right now). So even if Obama can call this situation for what it is, it could still push this thinking. Maybe?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2014

I full understand he has nothing he can do but be bland. But wow, does he have to be *that* bland?
posted by Artw at 2:46 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Does anyone know anything about Michael Brown's siblings? How old they are, or where they are now? How they are doing?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

eriko: His best hope was Jay Nixon stepping up, and Jay Nixon hasn't really done that.

Yeah, that's the worst part of this. At a time when Obama's constrained by both his actual powers and the public perception of anything he might try to do, it would be nice to not have it be amateur hour at the state and local levels.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:50 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

I full understand he has nothing he can do but be bland. But wow, does he have to be *that* bland

See? This is literally the no-win scenario for the President. People who agree that he can't do anything are complaining about HOW he does nothing.
posted by eriko at 2:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Oh, I am not surprised that he's not saying much about the abuses, I agree it wouldn't help much. But I'm rather sickened that he decided to roll with the 'Mike Brown was just a criminal' framing that the Ferguson police department have set up. Not only did he not do anything positive, he basically backed up the current play, that the problem is not a lack of justice or a coverup, the problem is all them looters and protestors carrying guns (but not the cops with the machine guns and tanks.)
posted by tavella at 2:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

U.S. Army Techniques Publication 3-39.33: Civil Disturbances
posted by ryoshu at 2:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

There is apparently a protest happening at the Wainwright building with arrests. Pictures and tweets via the Wainwright search on twitter.
posted by andoatnp at 2:54 PM on August 18, 2014

Oh, I am not surprised that he's not saying much about the abuses, I agree it wouldn't help much. But I'm rather sickened that he decided to roll with the 'Mike Brown was just a criminal' framing that the Ferguson police department have set up.

That's the point it tips to saying nothing actually being better.
posted by Artw at 2:54 PM on August 18, 2014

eriko: His best hope was Jay Nixon stepping up, and Jay Nixon hasn't really done that.

FYI, Nixon wants to be either President/Vice President/United States Senator. He will act only in what manner will help him achieve that goal.
posted by Atreides at 2:56 PM on August 18, 2014

Made me think that sports could be a vector for change for the good

Wouldn't it be a kicker if LeBron James showed up in Ferguson or if, as with the Donald Sterling situation, the Clippers and other athletes/teams refused to play until the situation improved? It seems like what's happening in Ferguson is the type of thing that motivated LeBron's move back to Cleveland. (I know it wouldn't happen/work, but it's interesting how most of America embraces its sports teams, which have mostly black athletes who grew up dealing with the issues we're seeing in Ferguson.)
posted by faux ami at 2:56 PM on August 18, 2014

If Republicans get 60+ seats in the senate (unlikely, I know), they will impeach him and Biden.

Point of pedantry, impeachment requires 67. Article 1, Section 3.
posted by Talez at 2:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Yeah, that's the worst part of this.

Everyone else is against the MO NG being in Missouri, but they are, quite literally, the only force that can stand up to those cops and not be shot. You shoot one that happens to be an Iraq vet, and the entire media perspective changes to "Ferguson Cop Shoots Iraqi Hero."

I'm hoping that the reports of Ferguson being blocked off are coming from the orders of the State Highway Department, who Jay Nixon specifically told to do that as they saw fit and in coordination with MO NG, because that means that MO NG is on the way.

At that is the only thing that will stop this tonight. Not twitter. Not the media. Not protests, not people dying. The St. Louis County and Fergeson police have gone all in, and the only thing that will stop them is a better armed force -- and one that StLCo/Ferguson Police will be crucified by the media if they hurt -- is standing in-between the citizens and those police forces, and the one and only force that matches that description is the Missouri National Guard.

This won't solve the racism, it won't heal the wounds, it won't bring that cop to justice, but it is the one thing that might actually keep the citizens of Ferguson from being shot tonight, and you take whatever wins you can get when there are 100 armed cops lining up again.
posted by eriko at 3:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [50 favorites]

eriko, that was a great comment, thanks.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:00 PM on August 18, 2014

I don't think we can do the ETA thing, but by "comment" I mean your whole commentary.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:03 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm hoping that the reports of Ferguson being blocked off are coming from the orders of the State Highway Department...

God, I hope so. I don't like to think why the local police would want to wall up the town.
posted by Iridic at 3:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Npr's Robert Seigel in an interview on ATC just asked the former mayor of StL who is now the lawyer for Dorian Johnson who was with Brown at the convenience store about their "thuggish" behavior.

Ugh.
posted by futz at 3:04 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's depressing that it's gotten to the point that eriko's comment has cheered me up, but it did. Thanks, eriko.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:04 PM on August 18, 2014

eriko - fingers crossed. After the collapse of the Highway Patrol effort into more of the same I have serious doubts though.
posted by Artw at 3:05 PM on August 18, 2014

Anyone remember the last time an entire town was walled off in the US that wasn't related to a natural disaster (hurricane, etc)?

Has this ever happened?

Will they be letting in the press?
posted by el io at 3:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

A St. Louis County cop told me the department is in process of cutting off all access into #Ferguson at this time.

let's hope no one smuggles in rockets with tunnels
posted by pyramid termite at 3:09 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

I am still parsing the conversation I had with our minister when he tried to assure me that words like "those people" and "thug" weren't necessarily racist when a fellow church member said them in reference to Ferguson. He is trying to keep peace, but all he is doing is revealing to me the way this fissure runs through my own UU church, which I thought of as a sanctuary from my racist surroundings. Clearly, there's a lot of work to do.
posted by emjaybee at 3:09 PM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

The "N" stands for "neutered."
posted by entropicamericana at 3:09 PM on August 18, 2014

Will they be letting in the press?

Were you able to type that sentence with a straight face?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

No press. Just cnn.
posted by futz at 3:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

I strongly agree with the points that eriko has made and I also made the argument on Thursday that it made sense that Obama wouldn't make a rousing speech when there were lives on the line that could be lost because of it.

And so I'm predisposed to think that such a consideration is always going to rightly take precedence -- passionate, historically important speeches should never take priority over actual human lives in that balance at that moment. Not when it's possible that such speeches can be given when those lives aren't immediately in the balance.

So maybe that's the case now, too. But despite the escalation, I'm not so sure it is the way that it was Thursday. Then, we had a situation where Obama would get Nixon to use his influence to have Johnson take over the scene and everything would get better (and it did) and then, a few days later, Obama could give that speech. But giving it that day could have derailed the whole de-escalation process.

Okay, but now we're locked into an escalation. Maybe an angry speech could have an affect on the protesters tonight, but I think the biggest danger was always the presence of the highly-militarized SLC police. I worry about the National Guard, but I think a lot of those folks have actual combat experience with hostile crowds and have a lot of actual battle discipline in a way that these Mayberry wannabe Rambos obviously don't. And we're locked into this escalation to the National Guard, nothing Obama could do at this point would avert this escalation nor cause a larger escalation. It would be worse with just the SLC continuing, but I don't see how anything Obama could say would make that more likely. It's certainy nothing that Nixon would want, now.

So I'm not quite seeing the same delicacy of the situation with regard to actual lives in Ferguson being at stake with the tone of an Obama speech as I saw last Thursday. This is largely out of Obama's control and nothing he says is likely going to make the situation worse on the ground. Again, he could make the protesters more angry, but I sort of think that at this point, with the NG's presence, the protesters wouldn't respond that way. They'd be relieved at the support from the President, mostly.

Given all that, I'm inclined in the other direction today; I'm inclined to think that this cautious speech did more harm than good. And more to the point, my argument before and now with regard to caution was all about actual people's lives in Ferguson and not, say, about political caution in the national sense or whatever. Screw that. In the context of the national conversation, now we need strong words. That bloc of Tea Party voters are already polarized, nothing Obama says now will make it worse.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

The "N" stands for "neutered."

Or "NSA": NPR Is Laundering CIA Talking Points to Make You Scared of NSA Reporting [The Intercept].

But yeah, they're typically reflexively pro-state and slavishly, embarrassingly deferential to established power.

That's why, this afternoon, I was actually stopped in my tracks while doing chores to hear some critical, informed, intelligent commentary RE: Ferguson on the Diane Rehm Show - typically a daily pulse-taking of center-right, affluent white opinion on any issue. I'm not sure what to make of it.
posted by ryanshepard at 3:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

just confirming futz's recollection that NPR's Robert Siegel referred to the convenience store incident as "that thuggish moment" when speaking with Dorian Johnson's attorney. Interestingly, the attorney kept referring to Michael Brown as "Big Mike" - I couldn't decide if that was a conscious (yet, imho, ill-advised) attempt to humanize him by using a nickname. With all the people who are convinced that Brown assaulted the cop, I'm not sure why you'd want to emphasize his size.
posted by desjardins at 3:24 PM on August 18, 2014

Why Obama won’t give the Ferguson speech his supporters want:

Obama was elected president because he seemed, alone among American politicians, to be able to bridge the deep divides in American politics [...] The problem is the White House no longer believes Obama can bridge divides. They believe — with good reason — that he widens them.
[...]
President Obama's speeches polarize in a way candidate Obama's didn't. Obama's supporters often want to see their president "leading," but the White House knows that when Obama leads, his critics become even less likely to follow.
[...]
If Obama's speeches aren't as dramatic as they used to be, this is why: the White House believes a presidential speech on a politically charged topic is as likely to make things worse as to make things better.

posted by inigo2 at 3:31 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I have little doubt that, right this very minute, there are right-wing pundits and forums exploding with incoherent rage about how Obama's speech was extremist and partisan and racist toward the poor long-suffering white people.
posted by Foosnark at 3:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Diane Rehm...

despite

how

slowly

she talks,

is awesome.
posted by Strass at 3:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

So Why Wasn't Officer Wilson Arrested? Plus Answers To Other Questions About The Law from St Louis Public Radio.

Depressingly, the analysis in the article is all too likely to be correct about what will happen next:

Would a St. Louis County jury be likely to convict?

No. “Asking a jury to convict a cop is really hard in most jurisdictions,” wrote Pitt’s Harris in an email. “To most jurors, cops are the good guys, and the people shot are often (not always) bad guys or not clean.”

Etc. etc.

However, I'll add this quote from one of the comments to that article--a comment I agree with 100%:

[E]ven if, by some perverse logic of the present legal code this shooting can be painted as justified, then any and all persons who value justice and reason should demand that those codes be altered such that this result can not happen again. . . . There is a clear and obvious pattern of racism, and callous disregard for the well being of citizens in general and there is gobs of evidence of this available right now on video and in news reports all over the internet.

This is the issue in a nutshell: That we've reached the point where police can beat, maim, and kill, and there is no accountability whatsoever. It's considered a normal, everyday occurrence and life for those involved just moves along with no consequences whatsoever.

This is wrong. W.R.O.N.G.

We're not asking for the system to work as intended. We're saying the the system is BROKEN and needs to be fixed so that it works with greater fairness and less abuse. That's why the demonstrations and all rather than just waiting patiently for the system to work through its process and come to a fair and reasonable conclusion.

We know that the system is broken in these type of cases and needs to be fixed in a major way.

The system is BROKEN.

And personally, I don't think it would be all that hard to fix it. You would just have to inject some accountability and outside oversight into the system.

You can't simply give ANY group the power over life and death and then allow them to supervise their use of that power themselves. Allowing that to happen goes against everything we know about how human nature works.

Reforms creating automatic independent outside review of all serious injuries and fatalities perpetrated by police wouldn't immediately fix every single problem in the system. But it would change all the incentives--and that would rather quickly make major changes and major improvements happen.

The problem isn't so much that we don't know what to do, as that there appears to be a large array of powerful forces who like the system just the way it is, thank you.

Perhaps, just perhaps, what's going on in Ferguson right now has a chance of pushing the system off its status quo just a little bit.

We can hope.
posted by flug at 3:37 PM on August 18, 2014 [19 favorites]

“Why Obama won’t give the Ferguson speech his supporters want,” Ezra Klein, Vox, 18 August 2014

The link posted by ob1quixote is well worth reading, as is the 2012 New Yorker article (also by Ezra Klein) linked in the Vox piece. It's saying that presidents who are also great orators, rarely or never cause any meaningful shift in public opinion from their speeches, and instead can actually make things worse. This is true with both Obama and Reagan, who are both known as especially eloquent speakers. From the New Yorker piece (on alternatives):

One option is to exert private leadership. The Obama Administration has had some success with this approach. Late in 2010, some observers wondered why the White House, which clearly believed that there was a need for further stimulus, wasn’t pushing Republicans on a payroll-tax cut, one of the few stimulus measures they had seemed somewhat open to. Then, suddenly, after the midterm election, it appeared in the tax deal. Axelrod says, “We didn’t put the payroll-tax cut into our speeches in the fall because we didn’t think we could pass it, and we worried that if we included it in our rhetoric it might pollute the issue and impair our chances of getting it done after the election.”

Back-room bargains and quiet negotiations do not, however, present an inspiring vision of the Presidency. And they fail, too. Boehner and Obama spent much of last summer sitting in a room together, but, ultimately, the Speaker didn’t make a private deal with the President for the same reason that Republican legislators don’t swoon over a public speech by him: he is the leader of the Democratic Party, and if he wins they lose. This suggests that, as the two parties become more sharply divided, it may become increasingly difficult for a President to govern—and there’s little that he can do about it.

I'm not fully through the article yet, but it's fascinating so far. It's sounding like impassioned and stirring speeches may help a person get the presidency, but one that's happened, they actually become more of a hindrance.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:40 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

While I'd like to see Obama leading a peaceful protest through Ferguson, try to imagine the clusterfuck it would be. Some small number of vetted protesters would be allowed, streets for blocks around would be blocked off and the disenfranchised aggrieved residents would be beaten and gassed at the roadblocks by the less photogenic cops. "Officer safety" is a strong card, but "POTUS safety" trumps all.

Netanyahu visited my company before the latest I/P mess and it was nuts: windows covered with translucent film, 1/2 the parking lots closed and abandoned cars moved. There were so many black SUVs when he actually arrived that I lost count.

Now Kobe & other black leaders who don't need secret service protection, I'd like to see.
posted by morganw at 3:41 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

You can't simply give ANY group the power over life and death and then allow them to supervise their use of that power themselves. Allowing that to happen goes against everything we know about how human nature works.

By this logic, you won't be trusting the president to decide who needs to die via drone.
posted by el io at 3:41 PM on August 18, 2014

There's a constant stream of accounts of journalists being arrested on Twitter right now, like they are stepping that up deliberately for some reason.
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

I gotta say I'm disappointed with conservatives' reaction to the murder of Mike Brown.They are not bothered by the state murdering an innocent black man for no reason and with no due process. Not only that, they think that it is a good thing that Brown was shot and killed by officer Wilson. Their hatred of black americans is so strong. They believe, based on no evidence whatsoever, that Brown attacked Wilson and thus Wilson was justified in shooting Brown six times. I firmly believe that, if, god forbid, some cop or national guardsman shoots and kills a protestor in Ferguson over the next couple of days, conservatives will rejoice. They cannot be compromised with. This is such a clear cut case of right and wrong.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

el io: "By this logic, you won't be trusting the president to decide who needs to die via drone."

Fuck no I won't!
posted by Strass at 3:47 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

If you want to feel sick and sad, try reading George H W Bush's response to the riots in the wake of the beating of Rodney King on May 1, 1992, and compare it a bit with Obama's response to Ferguson. Bush was firm in condemning the riots, of course – which were, let's note, much worse than anything that's happened in Ferguson so far, with several dead already at that point – but he was also firm on the point that the federal government would absolutely not put up with police violence, particularly police violence motivated by racism, and he wasn't shy about condemning these things explicitly:

"Now let's talk about the beating of Rodney King, because beyond the urgent need to restore order is the second issue, the question of justice: Whether Rodney King's Federal civil rights were violated. What you saw and what I saw on the TV video was revolting. I felt anger. I felt pain. I thought: How can I explain this to my grandchildren? ¶ Civil rights leaders and just plain citizens fearful of and sometimes victimized by police brutality were deeply hurt. And I know good and decent policemen who were equally appalled. ¶ I spoke this morning to many leaders of the civil rights community. And they saw the video, as we all did. For 14 months they waited patiently, hopefully. They waited for the system to work. And when the verdict came in, they felt betrayed. Viewed from outside the trial, it was hard to understand how the verdict could possibly square with the video. Those civil rights leaders with whom I met were stunned. And so was I, and so was Barbara, and so were my kids."

Now, I appreciate that this is mostly presidential lip service, the kind of speech presidents are supposed to make. And I feel as though there's a whole lot of reactionary nonsense that has crept up in the intervening years; and Obama is obviously a different president, with different problems to solve, than Bush was. Bush was an old white dude who was afforded by the white public the luxury of public sympathy for poor black victims. I'm not sure Obama has the same luxuries.

Still, it is disappointing that Obama wasn't harsher or firmer here. The federal government has a role here; it is to stand as a bulwark of justice, to aggressively investigate cases that seem suspect, to aggressively insert itself into difficult problems like this. And we need moral leadership on those points.

It's just disappointing that Bush Sr was so much more stirring in condemning racism in 1992 than Obama seems able to be now two decades later.

I guess there are some differences between Michael Brown's case and Rodney King's, though. For one thing, Rodney King didn't end up dead on the street.
posted by koeselitz at 3:47 PM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

Home project.

Get some stickers.

Mark, on you, the places Micheal Brown was shot.

Stand in front of a mirror.

Now, raise your arms over your head.
posted by eriko at 3:47 PM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

I firmly believe that, if, god forbid, some cop or national guardsman shoots and kills a protestor in Ferguson over the next couple of days, conservatives will rejoice. They cannot be compromised with. This is such a clear cut case of right and wrong.

I just made the mistake of reading the twitter feed of a Daily Caller writer. That is the Republican party. And they just. don't. care.
posted by inigo2 at 3:51 PM on August 18, 2014

Journalists are definitely being harassed.

WATCH: Cops Physically Push CNN’s Don Lemon During Tense Ferguson Protest
posted by yertledaturtle at 3:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Get some stickers.
Mark, on you, the places Michael Brown was shot.
Stand in front of a mirror.
Now, raise your arms over your head.

The only stickers I have are glittery owls. Can you summarize what I would see if I did this? The owls are inappropriate to the exercise.
posted by winna at 3:56 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

That CNN video appeared to have video from a helicopter. Are they allowing news helicopters now?
posted by Weeping_angel at 3:59 PM on August 18, 2014

The only stickers I have are glittery owls. Can you summarize what I would see if I did this? The owls are inappropriate to the exercise.

Pieces of tape will work, but assuming the cop had actually practiced shooting and was reasonably skilled, you would find when you do this that the shots all form a nice tight cluster just like you are supposed to make if you practice shooting.

But that cluster means Mr. Brown had his hands up around his head, either shielding himself or in surrender.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 4:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

“Now you see why people are so upset here, because we have been here all day,” he added. “We’re on national television. So imagine what they are doing to people when you don’t see on national television, the people who don’t have a voice like we do.”

Are CNN reporters actually allowed to say that without an immediate follow-up about how the cop was probably in the right?
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here's a modest reform suggestion:

It should be a felony for any police officer that is on duty to not be wearing clearly identifying numbers (ie: badge numbers). Failure to wear a visible badge numbers will result in a minimum of 7 days in jail. Failure to wear a visible badge number while in the commission of a crime (eg: unlawful detainment) shall result in a minimum of 60 days in jail and a maximum of 5 years in jail.
posted by el io at 4:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [22 favorites]

> “In Ferguson, Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery gives account of his arrest”

The video calls it "detained" instead of "arrested". When you're transported in handcuffs, you aren't simply detained. Maybe they mean another kind of detainment.
posted by morganw at 4:02 PM on August 18, 2014

Boy, there's been a lot of schadenfreude on Twitter over the Don Lemon incident, apparently he's widely viewed as an Uncle Tom type.
posted by desjardins at 4:03 PM on August 18, 2014

By this logic, you won't be trusting the president to decide who needs to die via drone.

In a lot of ways, what happens in small and large town police departments is a lot more insidious than even the president killing people by drone, CIA, or other military or covert means.

I mean, at least the President faces periodic elections, has continual active media coverage, is called to account by members of Congress and the courts, etc etc etc. You're quite right that it is not really what I would personally call enough accountability, but certainly there is a degree of public accountability.

Part of what happens in these police departments is they do have the power of life and death, but it's an almost completely closed system, it gets little media attention, and there are few to no 'balance of powers' type oversight protections. We've seen a lot of the reasons why in this thread, from the conscious discouragement of voting in municipal elections to the cozy relationship of the police, courts, and prosecutors.

Just take a look at what happened in the case I linked upthread:

From the beginning I cautioned patience, though Michael’s mother and sister were in an uproar. They had watched him get shot. But as an Air Force officer and pilot I knew the way safety investigations are conducted, and I was thinking that this was going to be conducted this way. Yet within 48 hours I got the message: The police had cleared themselves of all wrongdoing. In 48 hours! They hadn’t even taken statements from several eyewitnesses.

An article about the solution they passed in Wisconsin--automatic independent review of any fatalities in police custody--shows how thoroughgoing the problem is:

We researched the state of Wisconsin and we could not find an 'unjustified' ruling of a police-involved shooting in 129 years since the police and fire departments were first formed in 1885, and we knew that was an impossible record of perfection. Either the police officers were perfect, or there was something wrong with the system.

Again, this IMHO is a big piece of why people are upset and staying upset about this: It's systemic, it's ongoing, it requires a solution that goes beyond our current model of how policing in our communities works.

It is, of course, about more than just policing--it's about race, poverty, disenfranchisement, and so on. But again, all these things that are going to take some actual change to fix, not just having trust that our current system as-it-is, is going to work it all out for everyone's benefit in the end.
posted by flug at 4:05 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Driving While Black in Ferguson

The paper points out that in Ferguson, 86 percent of vehicle stops “involved a black motorist, although blacks make up just 67 percent of the population.” In addition, blacks stopped in Ferguson “are almost twice as likely as whites to be searched (12.1 percent versus 6.9 percent) and twice as likely to be arrested (10.4 percent versus 5.2 percent)”. Searches of blacks only results in discovery of contraband 21.7 percent of the time, whereas contraband is recovered from their less frequently stopped white counterparts 34.0 percent of the time.

sorry if this has already been posted; didn't see it in the thread.
posted by inigo2 at 4:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

They're definitely allowing some news helicopters - here's a local station.
posted by desjardins at 4:08 PM on August 18, 2014

I'm sure Bommarito Auto is now just thrilled about that ad buy.
posted by eriko at 4:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

From Jake Tapper:

Pathologist who assisted in Michael Brown autopsy: There were no signs of struggle http://cnn.it/1uPajru
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:14 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

"When you are looking at an autopsy, you have the autopsy of the body and literally the autopsy of the crime scene. And the autopsy of the crime scene really hasn't been done yet," Parcells said in an interview with CNN's "The Lead with Jake Tapper."

And never will be.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

It should be a felony for any police officer that is on duty to not be wearing clearly identifying numbers (ie: badge numbers). Failure to wear a visible badge numbers will result in a minimum of 7 days in jail. Failure to wear a visible badge number while in the commission of a crime (eg: unlawful detainment) shall result in a minimum of 60 days in jail and a maximum of 5 years in jail.

Honestly i'm all for that sports jersey idea from further up the thread. The front and back of their uniforms should say

"J. BLOW
12345
POLICE"

In enormous letters, like a fucking football jersey.

It should be 100% illegal for a cop to ever be on duty outside of a precinct barring undercover work while not wearing a uniform, and every uniform variation from the summer shorts and short sleeve shirt bike cop variety to full on riot gear should have that same printing. It should also be required to be a contrasting color, preferably silvery white like a sports jersey. None of this glossy black on a flat black jacket shit.

Make it that shmancy reflective stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb in photos(especially with flash) that they've started using in stripes on buses and trains, too. I've seen a couple jackets and some cycling backpacks with that on it.

If printing directly on the shirts/jackets is a concern these can be velcro on patches, but they should have to be a minimum size, and that size should be very large.
posted by emptythought at 4:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

Boy, there's been a lot of schadenfreude on Twitter over the Don Lemon incident, apparently he's widely viewed as an Uncle Tom type.

Black Twitter is no fan of Don Lemon.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Obama himself identified another important reason he can't give the speech a lot of you seem to want him to give; the DOJ is investigating the situation and the DOJ works for him. You know the county prosecutor who said it was terrible that the cops were being disrespected by having supervising authority transferred to someone else? And how people were all "OH MY GOD that's a total conflict of interest and now he needs to recuse himself from the case"? That's exactly what Obama would be doing.

You can't have the President making conclusive statements about a situation the DOJ is investigating. It shouldn't take much reflection to see what that is the case.
posted by Justinian at 4:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

So I guess from the St. Louis Public Radio article, we have a partial answer to No. 9 on the list, "Why Darren Wilson hasn't been detained, and whether police know his whereabouts":

Why wasn't the officer arrested at the scene and charged with murder?

Police officers have the authority to use deadly force when it is reasonable and necessary and usually are not second-guessed. Experts could not think of a case when an officer accused of misusing deadly force was arrested at the scene.

“Police are not usually indicted for this,” said David Harris, an expert on policing at Pitt Law School. “In the majority (perhaps great majority of cases), shootings by officers are found to be justified. Officers do have the power to use force, even deadly force, when reasonable and necessary in the performance of their duties, so they get the legal benefit of the doubt.”
posted by limeonaire at 4:24 PM on August 18, 2014

From roomthreeseventeen's link

Meanwhile, a second account was phoned into a local radio station that is reportedly consistent with what Officer Wilson told police investigators. A woman named only as "Josie" described Brown as punching Wilson in the face and grabbing for his gun. When the policeman fired the first time, Brown taunted and rushed at him full speed, and then was fatally shot, the woman said. Autopsy results released on Monday did not find evidence of a struggle.

That's a fucking crank call at best. Bullshit.
posted by Trochanter at 4:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is our reason to believe that the national guard has been called in to protect the citizens of Ferguson, rather than the police?
posted by dysh at 4:28 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I've been thinking about something over the past couple of hours.

Given the fact that the police didn't bother to interview witnesses for days, my impression of the situation with regard to the potential crime scene is that it was handled equally poorly: none of the work that would typically be conducted in the case of a murder (photographing and sketching the scene for later reconstruction, retrieving bullets and bullet casings and logging it into evidence, etc) has been done. And of course, at this point the scene is hopelessly corrupted and this stuff can be no longer done.

Two questions:
1. Has anybody seen anything that contradicts this impression I have?
2. How on earth are the local police being allowed to get away without conducting even the most basic of crimescene work?
posted by zug at 4:29 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

and, of course, how difficult is this going to make obtaining a conviction against the officer?
posted by zug at 4:30 PM on August 18, 2014

dysh: I think the NG was called to suppress dissent and protest in a manner more professional than the local cops were able to.
posted by el io at 4:30 PM on August 18, 2014

2. How on earth are the local police being allowed to get away without conducting even the most basic of crimescene work?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
posted by Justinian at 4:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

That's a fucking crank call at best. Bullshit.

CNN is now running this as their leading story online.

Breaking News
Different side of the story?: Private autopsy also detailed

"A woman saying she is a friend of officer Darren Wilson called a radio station with an account of Michael Brown's death that a source said was accurate."

This is their main, front page story. Right now. Didn't realize they were just that close to Fox News. How can they run such inflammatory—and anecdotal—hearsay as "news"?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 4:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

La piscina de la muerte!
posted by Talez at 4:36 PM on August 18, 2014

That's a fucking crank call at best. Bullshit.

That CNN is taking at face value.

Say what you will about Fox News, at least it's an ethos.
posted by el io at 4:37 PM on August 18, 2014 [18 favorites]

What is CNN doing there anyhow? Does Malaysian Airlines have a stop in St Louis?
posted by desjardins at 4:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [19 favorites]

It should be 100% illegal for a cop to ever be on duty outside of a precinct barring undercover work while not wearing a uniform, and every uniform variation from the summer shorts and short sleeve shirt bike cop variety to full on riot gear should have that same printing. It should also be required to be a contrasting color, preferably silvery white like a sports jersey. None of this glossy black on a flat black jacket shit.

On top of this, revoke the doctrine of qualified immunity and make police carry brutality insurance. The problem will quickly solve itself when claims of police brutality need only a preponderance of evidence. Bad cops won't be able to afford to stay cops.
posted by Talez at 4:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

This is their main, front page story. Right now. Didn't realize they were just that close to Fox News. How can they run such inflammatory—and anecdotal—hearsay as "news"?

This is the 24 hour news cycle. No filtering, no thought, no editing, we heard it, you hear it. The fact that they're admitting it is new.
posted by eriko at 4:40 PM on August 18, 2014

There's some journalism for you "A woman who said..."

Man, I should call up a station as a friend of the Officer and report that he was just angry at black people and shot him out of spite because, you know, my claim to be a friend is enough to warrant serious coverage.

Fuck CNN. Seriously.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:40 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

Of course, maybe this is CNN's attempt at undoing the PR damage the police did to themselves by harassing their reporter Lemon.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Fuck CNN. Seriously.

Apparently a lot of people feel that way.
posted by limeonaire at 4:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Apparently a lot of people feel that way.

Nice. That gets some applause from me.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is the 24 hour news cycle. No filtering, no thought, no editing, we heard it, you hear it. The fact that they're admitting it is new.

Which is frustrating, because I have twitter for that. The only single thing of value an organization like CNN could do in 2014 is actually confirm news before they report it.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

This is the soft pitch for the Rhino Charge Defence, which is 100% going to be how the fucker gets off in the unlikely event of this going to trial.
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

(or actually get reporters behind the lines, which they appear unwilling to do. Crazy for an organization I was first aware of watching in night vision while AAA flew over Baghdad.)
posted by Drinky Die at 4:53 PM on August 18, 2014

while #fuckCNN isn't trending, there is certainly twitter activity from that tag. if i used twitter, i'd be using that hashtag all day long.
posted by el io at 5:00 PM on August 18, 2014

Guardian update just pushed to my phone: "Police in Ferguson arrest journalist covering Michael Brown protests"
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:01 PM on August 18, 2014

Some photographs from Ferguson via the recently arrested Scott Olson.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:03 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

If you have to be in jail, it's nice to have good company.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:05 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

So the most reputable story out right now is that he taunted "you don't have the guts to shoot me!" and then charged at the officer? Isn't that something directly out of a really bad action movie. Like something there should be a TV Tropes entry for.
posted by naju at 5:06 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

From roomthreeseventeen's link

Meanwhile, a second account was phoned into a local radio station that is reportedly consistent with what Officer Wilson told police investigators. A

Hmm, it is interesting that CNN is running with that, since it is a few days old now and is very obviously based on an account posted on a Facebook page claiming to be by Darren Wilson, that a CNN editor had earlier declared to be a fake.

When I say "based on," I mean the Facebook account and this account phoned in to the radio show by "Josie" who claimed to be a friend of Wilson, are alike in numerous details and numerous bits of specific unusual terminology. They are very, very obviously from the same source, or perhaps one is completely based on the other--as thought "Josie" had the Facebook post in front of her and was summarizing it on-air when she called in; they are that similar in terminology, points made, order of presentation, etc.

Both of these have been linked up-thread, and as we discussed there, they should be viewed with deepest suspicion because they are:

#1. Not eyewitnesses
#2. Obviously designed to spin the story in a certain direction and
#3. Completely unattributable.

We have no idea who these people are, who are saying/posting this information, or what their agenda is. This is obviously something of an effort to get a certain story out, but WHO is peddling that story, WHY, and what its SOURCE is are unanswered questions.

With those caveats, here are links to the sources so you can examine them for yourselves:

FYI at least some of the details of these narratives are the same as those I myself heard from a STL-area friend through the rumor mill from someone who heard it from someone with STL area police connections (perhaps with a few more steps in between, as is customary in these situations). My point is that there is a group of Wilson-supporters who are trying to get this narrative out, they are spreading it a number of different ways (though always unattributable, as near as I can tell), and they are making a number of consistent points that support Wilson's position as they do so.

Whether or not any of these points go back to Wilson or any other eyewitness is a very different question. Whether they are trustworthy--another question again. Until backed up by more than anonymous sources who don't even claim to be eyewitnesses--completely untrustworthy, I would say.
posted by flug at 5:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

“What It Was Like In The Streets On Ferguson’s Worst Night,” Joel Anderson, Buzzfeed, 18 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 5:13 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Antonio French tweeted out this 90yr old Holocaust survivor being arrested.

Video on the Holocaust survivor (91 y/o) arrested in #Ferguson. She has spent years working for Palestinian justice

Hedy Epstein Arrested: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

I think her tee shirt says "stay human" ??

(sorry if this is a duplicate).
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

I knew I recognized her. I've seen Epstein around University City on a pretty regular basis.
posted by limeonaire at 5:22 PM on August 18, 2014

Livestream up here.
posted by dejah420 at 5:22 PM on August 18, 2014

Which is frustrating, because I have twitter for that. The only single thing of value an organization like CNN could do in 2014 is actually confirm news before they report it.

It's twitter for middle aged parents. Seriously.

That in and of itself is fine, but the problem is that they represent themselves as a real news organization doing real journalism, when they're basically daily mail/fox levels of bad now.

I'd still have a problem with them running crap like this in a "hey this is a rumor but..." Sort of way, but as it is as real news? Disgusting.

#fuckcnn indeed.
posted by emptythought at 5:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

KKK Leader Condemns KKK Group Fundraising For Darren Wilson
posted by desjardins at 5:24 PM on August 18, 2014

Ferguson, Missouri and the Fog of Partisanship and Ideology

Probably the most insightful and least (but not entirely un) offensive conservative commentary on the events we have witnessed.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:25 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

KKK Leader Condemns KKK Group Fundraising For Darren Wilson

But not because they disagree with the campaign's aims, but because they don't think those guys are real KKK and oh by the way we're considering our own form of support for Darren Wilson, thanks for asking.
posted by chrominance at 5:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Any photographs of these molotov cocktails yet?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

Probably the most insightful and least (but not entirely un) offensive conservative commentary on the events we have witnessed.

It is remarkably insightful for a conservative - it is sort of fun watching them try to maintain two thoughts in their head simultaneously.

But this :

Rioting and looting, in my view, is never justified, at least not unless and until you have reached that point of total breach of trust with your government that would justify armed revolution (in this sense, I disagree with Leon).

Is just so brazenly stupid I have to laugh to keep from crying.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:36 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Apparently Nelly is in Ferguson? I don't even understand what's going on there right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 PM on August 18, 2014

He's from St Louis, so it's not too strange.
posted by desjardins at 5:42 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Celebrities keep showing up, and the local protesters on my Twitter are NOT amused.
posted by Weeping_angel at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ah, okay. Thanks. I was like "holy cow, Twitter broke."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2014

MSNBC is now (finally) saying that people are questioning the truth of the police's assertion that some protesters were attacking the police last night. Chris Hays is interviewing three clergymen who say "There were no Molotov cocktails, there were no rocks thrown, there were no shots fired."

Hays notes this "directly conflicts" with the police's account of last night's events.
posted by sallybrown at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Maybe they didn't like Scott Olson the photographer who was arrested. Because of his images maybe.
posted by adamvasco at 5:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Mmm you can find me in St. Louie
Where the gun play ring all day
Some got jobs and some sell yea'
Others just smoke and fuck all day

Nelly (who just arrived in Ferguson), St Louis
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:46 PM on August 18, 2014

Shimon Prokupecz ‏@ShimonPro 1m

Nelly now addressing crowd trying to keep them calm telling them not to riot #ferguson
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:49 PM on August 18, 2014

I tried really really hard to give McLaughlin the benefit of the doubt, and he does have some good things to say about narratives rarely being cut-and-dried (and how easy it is for our judgment to be clouded by irrelevant information). But his assessment of black-on-black crime and its presence in the mainstream media race narrative and his flip dismissal of the awfulness that was Katrina is just so damned spectacularly obtuse. So close, and yet so far.
posted by Phire at 5:49 PM on August 18, 2014

Hey, emptythought, some of us middle age parents are on twitter, and CNN sure as hell ain't for us.
posted by mollweide at 5:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Saw a tweet earlier: “I just wish Obama would say the word 'racism.'” And I sympathize even as I accept Obama's limited in his options here. I do expect more from local government as tonycpsu said above. So, on a hunch, I ran a search: “racism” site:site:governor.mo.gov. Results: “did not match any documents.” The same search for the White House website turns up 167 results, which I presume aren't addressing white supremacist culture in frank terms, but at least the term's used. Governor Nixon talks of “a long history of challenges” and “getting justice.” Racism exists and people like Nixon and the government of Ferguson have an obligation to address it head on and not approach it as a PR problem.
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Isn't it weird our first black president can't talk about race openly?
posted by mollweide at 5:55 PM on August 18, 2014 [23 favorites]

But his assessment of black-on-black crime and its presence in the mainstream media race narrative and his flip dismissal of the awfulness that was Katrina is just so damned spectacularly obtuse. So close, and yet so far.

What is doubly hilarious is that he asks the good question - why do I have to go to google to hear about black on black crime - and comes to the conclusion that it is because Leftists who Control The Media don't want you to know about it.

Instead of the far more simple latent structural racism and the diminishment of issues that don't bother white society.

I mean - here's a guy with a well known blog and a voice, and he agrees the issue is important - why doesn't he talk about it, except to make a back handed swipe at Libotards ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:56 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

If Barak doesn't handle this well "Barak Obama don't like black people" will become a meme. This is his Katrina.
posted by el io at 5:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

My 76 year old white liberal dad hates cnn so much that I fear that it may cause a stroke. No kidding. This is a prof of medieval lit who also taught courses on truth in advertising. He views cnn and tmz as brothers in tabloid trash.
posted by futz at 6:02 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

“The Evening Jones: Ferguson, Missouri”—Bomani Jones, 18 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 6:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

You have got to be fucking kidding me.
posted by palomar at 6:06 PM on August 18, 2014 [39 favorites]

Next up on CNN: Crazy jazz music made him lust after white women (Autopsy doctor speculates).
posted by el io at 6:09 PM on August 18, 2014 [37 favorites]

Autopsy doc speculates despite all evidence to the contrary, that his head is not located in his ass.
posted by futz at 6:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

"For example," Baden told Van Susteren, "Mr. Brown might well have asked the police officer to say 'rural juror' repeatedly, giggling like a maniac at the sound of all those 'r's and 'l's rolling together, rural juror, rurrral jurrrror, like so; one must admit that, with the appropriate chemical supplements, one might have difficulty not leveling some unhinged chortles at the proposition."

Added Dr. Baden, "It's not even a word, really. Rurrrrrraljrrrrr."
posted by cortex at 6:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [17 favorites]

On top of this, revoke the doctrine of qualified immunity and make police carry brutality insurance. The problem will quickly solve itself when claims of police brutality need only a preponderance of evidence. Bad cops won't be able to afford to stay cops.

Meh. The Benevolent Association will make city/state funding of their insurance a bargaining point.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:14 PM on August 18, 2014

Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

This must be the new breed of "activist medical examiners" I was hearing about upthread.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

When I was a teenager I stole tobacco. I ran (successfully) from police one time. I got high a lot. (Eventually arrested for that)

Nobody ever shot me, even though I was a big dude who could be potentially threatening. When the security guard finally caught me stealing cigs he just gave me a warning. He didn't even take the cigs back or call the police.

I turned out okay. Maybe we can try just not shooting black kids for the same things I did?
posted by Drinky Die at 6:20 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

palomar:

"Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’"

Totally possible!
MARIJUANA MADE ME SO CRAZY ONCE THAT I ATE MORE COOKIES THAN I SHOULD HAVE!

Seriously?
What year is this again?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Raw footage KSDK interview with Piaget Crenshaw details what she saw
posted by maggieb at 6:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Hasn't Obama had like 15 speculative Katrina's at this point? This one definitely isn't going to be his Katrina because Republicans aren't about to start criticizing him en masse if he won't say anything meaty.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

roomthreeseventeen's found tweet, the one noting that Brown was shot twice as many times as British police fired their guns during all of 2013, seems to be accurate. Here is the source. [PDF] It notes that it doesn't count discharges for animal destruction or training.
posted by JHarris at 6:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

You can tell it's Obama's Katrina when the Republicans back him up and say he's being reasonable.

The republicans criticize him en-masse when he chooses his pet incorrectly (or 1.3 million other 'reasons').
posted by el io at 6:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Just an update, a little while ago I tweeted those 20 pieces of info we still don't have that we compiled together earlier in the thread. So if anyone's looking for something concise to retweet to put the pressure on re: any specific item, feel free to do so! I attributed the ones that you guys contributed to @MetaFilter. (I was going to make a Storify to link to but at the moment I don't have time.)

(The only one I left off, both to make an even 20 and because I thought the answer we'd get was already kind of apparent, is the original No. 20 from above, "Why Chief Jackson released the video and other materials about the robbery when expressly asked not to by the DOJ and other parties." It definitely wasn't personal, Foosnark!)
posted by limeonaire at 6:28 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

How crazy can an unarmed teenager act? Did the police guy fail a sanity roll or something?
posted by JHarris at 6:29 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

“Trayvon Martin’s Mom: ‘If They Refuse to Hear Us, We Will Make Them Feel Us’,” Sybrina Fulton, Time, 18 August 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 6:30 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Baden is looking like a poor choice here -- between Reefer Madness and "could have been charging" he may as well be working for the opposition.

Between other things like laundry it's taken me all afternoon to catch up here and I still have a browser full of unread tabs. *sigh*

Have to agree the idea that this is Obama's Katrina is silly (if it weren't a tragedy). Bush's fall, as it were, was due to his image being centered around protecting America(ns). His cross-aisle appeal had been due to the "compassionate conservative" label and it was proven indubitably naught but a talking point. To the extent anyone is losing trust in Obama it's largely people who have already been sorely disappointed. In any case, Obama has seen a normal drop in popularity for a second-term President; Bush had held abnormal popularity as a holdover from 9/11 and Iraq. Frankly, Obama has already seen his Katrina of a thousand cuts.
posted by dhartung at 6:32 PM on August 18, 2014

KKK Leader Condemns KKK Group Fundraising For Darren Wilson

We've officially entered the headline twilight zone.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Not sure if he's still paying attention to this thread, but cashman wrote this a few days ago:

And keep in mind we still haven't seen the pictures of the officer's face post-incident. The police have said the officer had a swollen face after the encounter. One he went to the hospital for, and one the chief said was significant enough that he wouldn't have been at work the next day for. The chief didn't know how he got the facial injuries, but it won't matter.

Is there a source for the police having said this or was this just vague pro-police propaganda filtering down eventually into the thread? If it was really claimed by the police, does it square with the images of Darren Wilson standing around, pacing, etc, in the newly released witness video roomthreeseventeen posted this afternoon?
posted by nobody at 6:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

After admitting that he had not seen the toxicology report in question yet, Baden went on to speculate about what the presence of marijuana in Brown’s system could mean.

This fucker just lost all credibility to be a neutral unbiased narrator/court witness on the death of Mike Brown. What a fool. The only upside is that we now know who we are dealing with here. I am flabbergasted at how publicly he chose to demonstrate his unprofessionalism.
posted by futz at 6:37 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Baden is looking like a poor choice here -- between Reefer Madness and "could have been charging" he may as well be working for the opposition.

I kind of get the feeling that he's trying really hard to appear unbiased and scientific and stuff (since he was hired by the family), and is drastically overcompensating.
posted by Weeping_angel at 6:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

Yep, that's probably how he wound up dead. Because his system was so full of marijuana.

Did I say "marijuana"? I meant bullets.
posted by uosuaq at 6:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [15 favorites]

Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

Isn't this the guy who was hired by the family? Why is he spouting this nonsense?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Well, this is encouraging video.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:45 PM on August 18, 2014

From the BBC: Michael Brown Shooting: 'Stark racial divide' in American views, reporting on findings from the Pew Research centre. Summary image grab.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:46 PM on August 18, 2014

He's not like an attorney who is hired as an advocate for the family. He was hired to perform an autopsy. I think the bit about saying the head wound could be consistent with multiple scenarios (including charging) is because that's the truth. He's not making a judgment about the likelihood of that scenario, he's making a scientific judgment about whether that specific injury is consistent with such a scenario. So to answer any other way would be a lie.

The mary-jane thing... well, I dunno. Because he's really old and reefer scares old people?
posted by Justinian at 6:47 PM on August 18, 2014

Well, this is encouraging video.

Yeah, I've been watching on the streams and it is an incredibly impressive amount of people out protesting. Lots of teenagers and kids in the crowd though, hopefully they are home before the police start the violence again.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Fox's Todd Starnes Accuses Obama Administration Of "Orchestrating The Michael Brown Tragedy"

So if CNN is like what you'd expect FOX to be, actual FOX is like...
posted by Artw at 6:50 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

KKK Leader Condemns KKK Group Fundraising For Darren Wilson

I'm sure it's just the bias of the news I read, but these days it seems like the purpose of the KKK is to let right-wingers know when they've gone too far (c.f. Westboro Baptist Church.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:51 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

The mary-jane thing... well, I dunno. Because he's really old and reefer scares old people?

It's deeply unprofessional to be speculating on toxicology reports that he hasn't seen. He has to know that he is being made complicit in the attempts to smear Brown.

Further, his comments on the possible scenarios lack context given that he hasn't had access to the clothes for GSR tests, or the crime scene. He shouldn't be commenting at all; his report should stand on its own.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

It definitely wasn't personal, Foosnark!

No problem, mostly I'm just looking for one more thing to make the dude squirm in front of lots of lights and cameras.
posted by Foosnark at 6:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Shouldn't he just report the facts and refrain from any and all speculation? He's going to be a witness in a courtroom. Irresponsible and unprofessional to the extreme imo.
posted by futz at 6:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Isn't it weird our first black president can't talk about race openly?"

No, in an "only Nixon could go to China" sort of way. Sad, but not weird.

"Meh. The Benevolent Association will make city/state funding of their insurance a bargaining point."

Even when that is the case (which it sometimes is for things like park police or, in my instant case, school police -- we did pay their liability insurance), it provides a great deal of incentive to the managing government authority to reduce liability. In our case (school district police), we wanted to disarm the police because of the liability insurance costs (which eventually happened but for very complicated reasons); we dramatically increased training requirements and increased preventive policing; and we got a LOT MORE PROACTIVE about firing officers who used inappropriate force or who were civil rights nightmares. These were all the right things to do, but having the pressure of the insurance company on us gave us a lot of extra weight in negotiations. The officers knew that if we couldn't reduce the premiums, we were going to have to reduce staff. (In fact, liability insurance costs are what keeps stifling all the attempts to "arm all teachers to prevent another Sandy Hook" in states that pass bills saying "sure, arm teachers!" Public school districts can't afford the insurance.)

I don't know much about city police but they must carry at least SOME liability insurance for this sort of thing? SOMETIMES cases are allowed to go forward.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

He wasn't speculating. Speculating is what you or I do without forensics training. He was giving a scientific judgment.
posted by Justinian at 6:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

It looks like this afternoon's link to the new witness video no longer works. (The Daily Beast replaced the article?)

In any case, here's a fixed link, which I think the original article was just linking to anyway.
posted by nobody at 6:59 PM on August 18, 2014

Lol.
posted by futz at 6:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

(I'm talking about the wound, not the marijuana. That was pure BS speculation.)
posted by Justinian at 6:59 PM on August 18, 2014

Hypothesisin'.
posted by Artw at 7:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Michael Brown almost certainly had dihydrogen monoxide in his system too, has anyone considered the role that may have played in the shooting?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:03 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

But you can't argue that he is using science based speculation in one instance and then dismiss his other speculations as folly.
posted by futz at 7:03 PM on August 18, 2014

But you can't argue that he is using science based speculation in one instance and then dismiss his other speculations as folly.

I know a meteorologist who can predict the weather with reasonable skill but insists global warming is a myth. I argue that his science based speculation in one area is excellent and totally wrong headed in the other.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:05 PM on August 18, 2014

Watch me, futz.
posted by uosuaq at 7:06 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Could Baden have been secretly offered a deal to skew his report? I mean, it sounds crazy, but I really don't know what to believe anymore.
posted by naju at 7:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

futz: Of course you can? We do it all the time? He performed an autopsy and inspected the wounds. Assuming he is qualified (and no-one, I think, has suggested he isn't) then his scientific opinion not speculation about those wounds is relevant. But if he did not perform the toxicology nor even see the reports then he cannot possibly have formed anything but speculation about those reports.

I mean... if a mathematician tells you something about math that's science. If he or she tells you something about biology that's probably speculation.
posted by Justinian at 7:07 PM on August 18, 2014

*squinting hard at you uosuaq*
posted by futz at 7:09 PM on August 18, 2014

I suppose a mathematician telling you about math is not in fact science, it is math. But you know what I mean. Language is hard.
posted by Justinian at 7:10 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Protesters rally for Mike Brown and Ferguson filling the side walks and street outside the CNN Center on Monday in Atlanta.
posted by Artw at 7:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Scientists speculating outside of their field is indeed a sign you are entering the realm of the crank.
posted by Artw at 7:14 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

This guy should not be speculating to the media. He has crossed a professional boundary. It is egregious.
posted by futz at 7:15 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

The guy should not be speculating to the media. That's CNN's job.
posted by uosuaq at 7:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

sio42: “Man I think I'm starting twitter arguments with strangers. Those pics of the broken window in mcds (not the one from the newspaper front page) that has people confused I am explaining was not looting, was first aid.”

Joel Anderson was there. He said it was a rubber bullet that shattered the window.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:18 PM on August 18, 2014

I am done talking about my opinions on this. Sorry for the derail.
posted by futz at 7:18 PM on August 18, 2014

Apparently Getty photographer Scott Olsen has been released by the cops.

Pretty nice arrest photo, though.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The Vice reporter is wearing a Level 3 Military Issue bullet proof vest.

In the USA. So that he can the news report safely.

Fucking hell.

This is the live Vice News link.
posted by spinifex23 at 7:28 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Scott Olsen has to be smiling thinking of the lawsuit he's going to win for unlawful arrest. And good for him.
posted by el io at 7:30 PM on August 18, 2014

Why are officers not wearing badges with name and number in a lot of these images coming out?

It's much harder to sue (and/or win) when you can't name who fucked you up and violated your rights.
posted by rtha at 7:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

The Last Word has the dude who assisted in the private autopsy. He says that, despite what has been widely reported across the media today, the analysis of Brown's wounds cannot definitively rule out being hit from behind. Lawrence is cross examining him.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

naju: "Could Baden have been secretly offered a deal to skew his report? I mean, it sounds crazy, but I really don't know what to believe anymore."

His fee was not paid by the family. He waived his $10k fee. Was that generosity on his part, or was the fee paid by someone else? Also, apparently he has a TV show...did the family request him, or did he seek out the family? Inquiring minds want to know.
posted by dejah420 at 7:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

uosuaq: "Autopsy Doctor Speculates Marijuana Could Have Made Michael Brown Act ‘Crazy’

Yep, that's probably how he wound up dead. Because his system was so full of marijuana.

Did I say "marijuana"? I meant bullets."

I keep vacillating between hearing it as that "MariHuana" Reefer Madness style, and...
MARIJUANA!!!! (wav file)

SHAME SHAME SHAME on you Dukes!

Seriously, this guy has to be a fucking racist or an inside job or just suffering from dementia or an old fuddy duddy who bought into Harry Anslinger's anti pot campaign in 1937 when he was just a weeeeeeee lad. Or, I can't even understand.

All I know is I sit here and my eyes tear up and I read that letter from Trayvon's mom and it just breaks my fucking heart and God Damn America.
posted by symbioid at 7:38 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Man I think I'm starting twitter arguments with strangers.

I had dental work done last week, and instead of a bit of pain for a couple days and tapering off I ended up with a bit and then a bit more and then more than a bit of pain escalating over the course of the last week, waking me up a couple times a night every time the previous dose of painkillers wears off. Something clearly not quite right with it, so I called 'em up this morning and they got me in to take a look.

And I'm sitting there with my jaw aching, waiting for the dentist to come in, and the hygienist is making small talk to keep me company, and I've been going here enough now that they know from previous small talk that I work on a website of some sort, so she sees me on my phone and asks if I'm at work. And I say not really, not till later today, but it's been pretty busy the last week because of among other things all the stuff in Ferguson so I'm just sort of keeping up with things anyway.

And she says, oh, my husband told me about that today, and I'm like, yeah, a lot of strong emotions involved for obvious reasons, the whole thing has been really crazy, and she's like, yeah, it's so crazy, that guy ran up and punched a cop.

I don't think I winced and if I did I had the toothache to blame it on I guess. Talked about some of the problems with poor media coverage and misinformation, tried to sort of gently disassemble a couple of talking points, but christ almighty can I not think of a worse time and place to suddenly be trying to navigate that line of discussion.
posted by cortex at 7:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [40 favorites]

Oh, cortex...that must have sucked. Hope you're feeling better!
posted by dejah420 at 7:43 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

At the dogpark today, the sort of annoying-jokey guy who likes to make Black Jokes around Black People to prove he's Completely Cool (we all know otherwise) zeroed in on the one black woman (who is from London, mind) and said:

"As a black person, what's your opinion on global warming? HAR! I know, you thought I was going to say Missouri!"

Sometimes I wish we all did have virtual-reality headpieces like we were supposed to back when 2014 was the future so I could stay in the liberal bubble and avoid people.
posted by cmyk at 7:46 PM on August 18, 2014

So, on the livestream, there's some white guy with a megaphone, but I can't make out everything he's saying, but if I've got the jist, the cops have told the crowd to disperse, and megaphone guy is saying they shouldn't. People are milling about. Looks very tense.
posted by dejah420 at 7:47 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice crew just walked past convenience store (?) that had plywood up over about two thirds of the front, I'm assuming covering damaged windows, and on the plywood was written "OPEN" in tall letters three or four times, and all I could think of was Clerks.
posted by cortex at 7:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Armored vehicles incoming
posted by dejah420 at 7:50 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh, shit, armoured trucks just showed up.

Crowd mood is VERY tense.
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:50 PM on August 18, 2014

Here we go. Sigh.
posted by pearlybob at 7:50 PM on August 18, 2014

The goon squad is back for another round.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:52 PM on August 18, 2014

Oh fuck. Riot shields, full formation. People in Peacekeeper shirts trying to keep the groups apart.
posted by dejah420 at 7:52 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, that white guy was definitely egging the crowd on. Not smart. It's looking ugly, but if the crowd keeps falling back there might be a chance...maybe...It's all coming to a head now.
posted by uosuaq at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2014

ordering crowd to disperse
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2014

Police: You must clear the streets immediately. Do not throw objects. You must disperse now. Sound cannons! Sound cannons!
posted by dejah420 at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2014

DISPERSE THE STREET IMMEDIATELY. FAILURE TO DISPERSE WILL RESULT IN YOUR ARREST OR OTHER ACTIONS.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on August 18, 2014

And there goes the sirens/LRAD....
posted by spinifex23 at 7:54 PM on August 18, 2014

Back to that same loop. "Arrest and/or other actions." And then that fucking car alarm sound cannon thing.
posted by cortex at 7:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

OMG you guys, I can barely stand to listen to the feed with those sound cannons going off. How is this fucking legal?
posted by dejah420 at 7:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Dogpark fuckwits aside though, I'm scared about two things here: one, that the violence is only going to escalate... and two, that violence is the only thing which can effect change anymore.

This isn't the America I grew up believing in. Fuck. I don't know what this is, anymore.
posted by cmyk at 7:54 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

The vice feed isn't airing anything. What's up?
posted by Strass at 7:56 PM on August 18, 2014

Trying their damndest. I spy Amnesty observers watching very carefully.

Full line of cops.

Antonio French in there trying to keep peace.

Watching this feed now: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:56 PM on August 18, 2014

Live feed
posted by dejah420 at 7:56 PM on August 18, 2014

This is totally unwarranted. The crowd weren't doing anything. They were peaceful.

Livestream guy: 'If they would turn that siren off, the crowd would relax. Instead they've increased the volume'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:57 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

increasing the volume of the LRAD
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:57 PM on August 18, 2014

This is the America I grew up in, I just didn't know much about it at the time.
posted by uosuaq at 7:57 PM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

There has to be a way to counter act the LRAD
posted by yertledaturtle at 7:58 PM on August 18, 2014

Antonio French in there trying to keep peace.

I just watched him physically restrain and drag away a guy that wanted to attack the cops. He's an impressive dude.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Why do they do this every fucking night? Where the fuck are the feds? Who's running this shit show? Seriously, is it still the county guys? The Ferguson guys?

Is this really best practises?
posted by Trochanter at 7:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

That LRAD is painful to watch and I am DEAF beyond technological help in half those frequencies.
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:59 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, it's the same one I grew up in. I didn't know. I'd prefer the one I believed in, the "take your teeming masses" one. But that's another comforting fiction.
posted by cmyk at 7:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Someone, somewhere, is recording that LRAD to use in their Industrial or Techno music.
posted by spinifex23 at 7:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

WTF. Is this the National Guard, the local cops, the highway patrol...who is responsible for this PK Dick dysptopian nightmare in an American suburb. This has to stop. How do we stop this? Who has the goddamn power to stop this? If not the President, then who? Can we appeal to the UN? What the fuck do we do to save a town that is being held hostage by a military force unfriendly to them?
posted by dejah420 at 8:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

That LRAD is painful to watch and I am DEAF beyond technological help in half those frequencies.

It's basically a sonic torture device
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

God, that sound cannon is awful. I turned my speakers way down and they just keep turning it up. How the hell are people supposed to talk others down when that sound is agitating the shit out of me from 2000 miles away?
posted by zug at 8:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

So, those sounds cannons do 140db (according to an earlier link in this thread).

I wonder if the cops will realize they are working in conditions that violate OSHA standards.

They are endagering themselves and the crowd that is there. loudness table.
posted by el io at 8:01 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

I am thinking some sort of reflective barrier could be used to beam it right back in the direction it is coming from.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:01 PM on August 18, 2014

So they basically told them to keep walking or face arrest and then blocked off the road they were walking on? What are the people in charge thinking? This is insanity.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:01 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, I saw what looked like a bottle shatter about twenty feet away from the assembled line of cops a couple minutes before they went into recording-and-LRAD mode. Idiotic non-proportional response, like some drunk shitheel in a bar reacting to being bumped in by breaking a bottle off at the neck and waving it around.

APC with a manned machine gun pushing forward now through the crowd.
posted by cortex at 8:02 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I thought there was no curfew?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Big ol motorcade of flashy lights, going away from the crowd.
posted by dejah420 at 8:04 PM on August 18, 2014

There has to be a way to counter act the LRAD

i'm now picturing the mothra ladies summoning diamanda galas

...

Oh, also, this is fucking awful.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:04 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is this the NG?
posted by futz at 8:04 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice livestream is back up, not quite as LRAD
posted by Strass at 8:04 PM on August 18, 2014

The community leaders were doing a decent job of getting the crowd out of the street....just to have a SWAT vehicle, with people with guns on the roof, drive through the crowd. And inflaming it, yet again.

That was useful.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:05 PM on August 18, 2014

At least they're not teargassing people. Yet.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:06 PM on August 18, 2014

One protest sign right in the middle of the street, "Stop Killing Us."

Why is that so fucking hard?
posted by cmyk at 8:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Livestream broadcaster says motorcade was heading towards the QT that has been the epicenter of the protest until today when the media and crowds were barricaded from it. Livestream guy says police won't let media down there, and now swat teams are headed after the motorcade.
posted by dejah420 at 8:07 PM on August 18, 2014

I wonder if the cops will realize they are working in conditions that violate OSHA standards.

It'd be hilarious/horrible if they end up being the only ones able to sue for millions.
posted by Artw at 8:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Crazy shit going on on MSNBC. Chris Hayes and Craig Melvin just got pelted with rocks and they're interacting with some really fired up protesters.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:08 PM on August 18, 2014

Look at those community leaders calmly requesting that protesters get out of the streets please, and the protesters listening to them.

No LRAD or tactical armor needed.

Cops, take note.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:09 PM on August 18, 2014

There's absolutely no way to defuse the situation with the goddamned LRAD going. That means the cops don't want to defuse the situation. They want to flex. They're extremely lucky that the people aren't the violent "animals" the cops take them to be.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:10 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

For more context to my comments re: the LRAD, I have had people shriek when they think it's funny to try to put my hearing aids in while they are on. In some places my hearing aids have a lowest volume of 110db, and that is close to the max that can currently be achieved without becoming too distorted to be useful. The audiologists didn't even try for a good third of the highest pitches like the LRAD.

120-130 is loud enough to cause physical pain. It is torture.

If I can hear it without hearing aids at that pitch, it is definitely louder than 120db and is well within physically painful range (ie., torture) for people with functional hearing.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Cops advancing, arrested a kid for jaywalking? Like 8 of them, to get this skinny kid out of a crowd for some reason.
posted by dejah420 at 8:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Phalanx of cops just moved forward with APC and grabbed a guy holding what looked like a gallon jug of maalox mix.
posted by cortex at 8:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Cops have their gas masks on.
posted by Weeping_angel at 8:11 PM on August 18, 2014

This is basically Disneyland for cops.
posted by Artw at 8:12 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Cops surging into the crowd!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:13 PM on August 18, 2014

Police pushing en masse into the crowd.
posted by cortex at 8:13 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, I bet a lot of these cops are having the time of their lives.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:13 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

I would say "Disneyland for bad cops" but I'm pretty sure that's the only kind available anymore.
posted by emjaybee at 8:14 PM on August 18, 2014

I made a pledge to myself last week to actively talk about what's going on in Ferguson with everyone I know in real life because, as a white man hundreds of miles away from Missouri, I can at least educate myself and do that, right? When people ask me how I'm doing I've been honestly telling them that I'm overwhelmed, I'm frustrated, and I'm angry and THIS IS WHY. Going into this, I expected some conflict. I figured I could handle that because I'm generally very good at diffusing heated situations, and the people I'm talking to aren't exactly the type that go around posting Fox news stories on Facebook. But I went into it assuming that most people are more uninformed or uninterested than anything else. The conversations I've had have shaken me.

I had one person today tell me that cops were justified in whatever actions they took against people who violated rules, specifically people who were out past the curfew. He had no issue with the tear gas or the rubber bullets. I asked what happens when the ability to peacefully protest within the set rules is continuously whittled away and he waved it away as impossible. When I pointed out that this stance meant he was opposed to all the nonviolent civil disobedience that occurred in the civil rights era, he said he was, that they had broken the rules and deserved to be punished as such.

I've known this guy for years. My impression of him up to this point was that he was one of the friendliest people I knew (granted, we never really talked politics before this). I expected all manner of toxic views to be out there because nobody had challenged them before, but I had no idea that people I know, and probably other random people I walk by on the street, held such hardline, frankly authoritarian, views. I'm still trying to process it. And I have no idea how to respond to it.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:14 PM on August 18, 2014 [24 favorites]

Here we go.
posted by rollbiz at 8:14 PM on August 18, 2014

Antonio French doing his damndest.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:14 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

twitter @suddeneternity: Media is forming a human shield to protect #Ferguson protesters! Huge kudos to the press!
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:15 PM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

I mean, once you put on a gas mask and start slinging teargas and blasting deafening sounds at kids and grandmas, you have already reached the dark black hole at the bottom of your soul.
posted by emjaybee at 8:15 PM on August 18, 2014

I'm seeing some people on Twitter saying that people are throwing rocks at the MSNBC crew for asking them ridiculous, borderline insulting questions. I'm seeing other people saying that MSNBC is doing great journalism tonight! It sounds like both have the potential to be somewhat true.

Someone just yipped about something in my alley, and I'll admit, even after a tall sambuca and cran, I jumped.
posted by limeonaire at 8:16 PM on August 18, 2014

It looks like the police surged forward and were freaking out... about empty water bottles thrown at their feet. This is a travesty.
posted by naju at 8:16 PM on August 18, 2014

Rembert Browne ‏@rembert 2m
you armchair journalists don't even understand what it's like to watch a water bottle hit a tank. the terror.
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

The people in the front of the police line have giant guns and gas masks. They don't have shields or anything. They're clearly not worried about their own safety, they're waiting for the order to hurt civilians.
posted by cmyk at 8:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

'Everyone needs to get off the street and onto the sidewalk' is a really weird choice for what's going to haunt my fascism-tinged dreams tonight.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is this the National Guard? If so I guess all possible forces are fully dedicated to fuckery and a police exclusion zone is required.
posted by Artw at 8:19 PM on August 18, 2014

The cops area actually backing off now...this *could* still be an amazing thing and a good night.
posted by uosuaq at 8:19 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The reporters have been saying its the police no mention of guard being there yet.
posted by Jalliah at 8:20 PM on August 18, 2014

Why can nobody answer if this is the NG?
posted by futz at 8:21 PM on August 18, 2014

So what just happened with Captain Johnson? It seems like he basically just took a group of Highway Patrol (as a bodyguard? crazy to say but it kind of looked like it) and backed down the county/local PD. This is one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:21 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

I think The Guard is positioned at the command center. I saw some photos of them earlier in the day.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:21 PM on August 18, 2014

Why can nobody answer if this is the NG?

Because we all have the same information that you do?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:22 PM on August 18, 2014

twitter @michaelcalhoun: Capt. Johnson pushes the police back, goes to meet a protest leader. Trying to diffuse. #Ferguson

@michaelcalhoun: Capt. Johnson has no helmet, gas mask or bulletproof vest.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

All of the pictures I've seen of the National Guard so far has them in recognizable digicamo.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:23 PM on August 18, 2014

So what just happened with Captain Johnson? It seems like he basically just took a group of Highway Patrol (as a bodyguard? crazy to say but it kind of looked like it) and backed down the county/local PD. This is one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it was
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Visible Amnesty International personnel on the livefeed.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:24 PM on August 18, 2014

One of the community peacekeepers just gave an agitated protester a hug - and she calmed down.

Oh, and now there's an LRAD in the background. HELPFUL.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:24 PM on August 18, 2014

KSDK: "National Guard is not near these #Ferguson protesters. They are at the command center."
posted by jessicapierce at 8:24 PM on August 18, 2014

symbioid: “God Damn America”

You know, here we are nearly 3200 comments into this thread, and I actually think it's a really good time to link the sermon from April 13th, 2003 by the Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright entitled "Confusing God and Government"

Governments fail. The government in this text comprised of Caesar, Cornelius, Pontus Pilot – Pontius Pilate – the Roman government failed. The British government used to rule from east to west. The British government had a Union Jack. She colonised Kenya, Guana, Nigeria, Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and Hong Kong. Her navies ruled the seven seas all the way down to the tip of Argentina in the Falklands, but the British failed. The Russian government failed. The Japanese government failed. The German government failed. And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian decent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese decent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African decent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them in slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton fields, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into position of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law, and then wants us to sing “God Bless America.”

P.S. I changed my 70-year-old father's mind about this. He thought what people — mostly white people — who've only heard the sentence that follows the passage I quoted think. After I read it to him, he said, "I've been wrong about this for years."

P.P.S.

The Card Cheat: “Yeah, I bet a lot of these cops are having the time of their lives.”

I'm sure they'll all enjoy the boats and vacations all the overtime will pay for as well.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:25 PM on August 18, 2014 [24 favorites]

Those community leaders with bullhorns are doing an amazing job.

The Amnesty observers seem to have split between the feeds -- a couple with Vice, a few others at at the main showdown with the police riot line.

They need to keep their fingers off that LRAD.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:25 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Johnson" is actually French for "Vimes", I think.
Wouldn't mind knowing what's happening down the street, though.
posted by uosuaq at 8:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Why can nobody answer if this is the NG?

From the close-ups of the police line at the livefeed here, some of them were definitely St Louis County police, some highway patrol, and it looked like some from other police departments. There were a variety of uniforms and patches.

However, definitely of the ones I saw, none were National Guard, all were police of various types.

However, that is just my own personal observation of the live feed. I don't have any special info other than that.
posted by flug at 8:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

It was a rhetorical question. I am not the only one who asked. Thanks
posted by futz at 8:26 PM on August 18, 2014

Picture of Amnesty folks from Twitter.
posted by emjaybee at 8:28 PM on August 18, 2014

Where is the President of the United States.
posted by Trochanter at 8:30 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is it just unlawful because they're in the street?
posted by shakespeherian at 8:30 PM on August 18, 2014

He's chilling at the crib.
posted by RedShrek at 8:30 PM on August 18, 2014

"If you are standing still, you may be subject to arrest."

Ah, I remember reading about unlawful assembly in school (in regards to the soviet union).
posted by el io at 8:31 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Seems like the cops learned everything they know about conflict deescalation and resolution from ED-209.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:32 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

I think the 'unlawful' part is that the people are not quitting and going home as the cops wish them to.
posted by cmyk at 8:32 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Insisting that this many people not stand in the road seems like a pretty pissant move. Why not just cordon off the road and let them protest?

Because this isn't about crowd control, or maintaining order. This is about suppressing dissent.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Well yeah I mean it's totally illegal not to obey everything the condescending white dude says through his megaphone.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:33 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Do not pull signs out of the ground.....
posted by Jalliah at 8:34 PM on August 18, 2014

This is one weird fucking game of Mother May I.
posted by cortex at 8:34 PM on August 18, 2014 [11 favorites]

Some people I went to college with and worked on the college newspaper with are now actual reporters, a couple of whom work in St. Louis. They are tweeting from Ferguson and ending up in the twitter feeds of important Ferguson tweets and it is kinda freaking me out. Not as bad as it freaked me out when one of my co-workers worked for the New Orleans Times Picayune during Katrina and I kept obsessively refreshing the front page to see if she had filed a story or if she was dead. But a lot of anxiety about the folks reporting from the front lines, who are my age and mostly have little kids like I do.

Not remotely an important issue, but my stomach is just 24/7 clenched up about this because of friends braving the front lines. My whole community (Peoria) has a lot of ties to St. Louis and just in general this is a wrenching process because so many of my neighbors and friends have relatives/friends/connections there. I am back and forth about whether to take my kids (5 and 3) to local protests; those protests are peaceful, but I'm not sure I can cope with explaining to them what is going on, or worry about the mood of the crowd changing.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Zeke Johnson Amnesty International Authorities at north end of Florissant refuse to answer any Q's about who they are or their protocols.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:35 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

An officer training his rifle on the crowd.

So that's cool.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:36 PM on August 18, 2014

limeonaire: “I'm seeing some people on Twitter saying that people are throwing rocks at the MSNBC crew for asking them ridiculous, borderline insulting questions. I'm seeing other people saying that MSNBC is doing great journalism tonight! It sounds like both have the potential to be somewhat true. ”

I'm watching live. Chris Hayes and Craig Melvin had just gone live on the air as all hell broke loose down the street. As people were moving past their camera position to get away from the conflict, one woman yelled, "Tell the real story!" A couple of people tossed some stones.

I'm a little surprised because Chris spent the day running down the Molotov story and had three clergy who were in the vanguard last night who all said there were no firebombs that they saw.

Chris engaged with some of the people, and Craig got his cables sorted out and interviewed a couple of people through the fence. Most indicated there was no good reason for the police to start with the crowd. They were both very respectful. The first question they asked is, "What happened?"
posted by ob1quixote at 8:36 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Police can arrest for any reason they want. Six protesters were arrested with Occupy Tampa because they did not get up off the sidewalk when told to - I think the charge was that they were blocking use of the sidewalk. It all got thrown out, legally, but the cops got to clear everyone away and that's what they wanted.

Staying in or out of the street does not mean a damn thing, except that they'll choose a different obscure law to bust you with.
posted by cmyk at 8:38 PM on August 18, 2014

I'm watching both these feeds: Vice and KARG Argus Radio.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:39 PM on August 18, 2014

"Please put the street sign back in the ground, where you found it."
posted by spinifex23 at 8:40 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

What in the holy hell just happened? The feed cut out and suddenly the cops were swarming.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:40 PM on August 18, 2014

Police can arrest for any reason they want.

Not legally. Obviously the police operate outside the law, however.
posted by el io at 8:41 PM on August 18, 2014

And now, they protesters are entering the street again, including Illegal Street Sign Lady.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:41 PM on August 18, 2014

"Please stop obstructing vehicular traffic."

NO U
posted by spinifex23 at 8:42 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

From what I've learned they just say "oops, my bad" and let you go with no charges if they can't find something to stick you with.
posted by cmyk at 8:42 PM on August 18, 2014

You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

SWAT advancing on crowd, on VICE, police just told the media to separate themselves from the crowd
posted by dejah420 at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2014

Media are being told to separate themselves from protestors?
posted by boo_radley at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The woman they just arrested was the same woman the community organizer was hugging earlier. The Argus journalist said she was trying to get through the crowd to go home, I think.
posted by sallybrown at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2014

uh oh
posted by shakespeherian at 8:45 PM on August 18, 2014

Ron Johnson making another statement to media. Seems like he's still reading from a script he didn't write.

I feel for him. He is so clearly being set up as a scapegoat for if/when things keep going wrong and I can't imagine he doesn't know that.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:45 PM on August 18, 2014

So from the Argus feed, it's a long line of cops facing a line of cameras/reporters and some protesters, and the one from Vice looks to be in a totally different spot?
posted by rtha at 8:46 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, Vice unit appears to be up the street a ways from the main police line and media assembly spot.
posted by cortex at 8:47 PM on August 18, 2014

Illegal Street Sign Lady

Not to be mistaken for Blinky Flashlight Cop
posted by Jalliah at 8:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Wow, the guy repeating the warning to move sounds absolutely bored, which is a weird contrast to the situation.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:48 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Please don't separate yourself, media. There's no story inside a caged in "free speech zone."
posted by emjaybee at 8:49 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

el io: "So, those sounds cannons do 140db (according to an earlier link in this thread).

They are endagering themselves and the crowd that is there. loudness table."

From the table: Pain begins 125dB

Step into my pain cave, and I will bludgeon you. You don't have to scream because your ears are bleeding... That's perfectly normal when someone bludgeons you, the bleeding part that I was just referring to...
posted by symbioid at 8:50 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

@D_Towski

"ALL MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA PLEASE SEPARATE YOURSELVES FROM THE PROTESTERS IMMEDIATELY" #Ferguson

what the fuck is this
posted by triggerfinger at 8:52 PM on August 18, 2014

You know… I'm no expert on police work, but I think you have to act like an authority if you want to be treated like one. When you're acting like you think imminent assault might come from any quarter at any moment — vision darting from side to side, shoulders hunched, knees slightly bent, gun sweeping back and forth, fearfully in other words — you've ceded the authority of your lawful office. All you have left is force.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:52 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

It seems like he basically just took a group of Highway Patrol (as a bodyguard? crazy to say but it kind of looked like it) and backed down the county/local PD

My impression of a fair part of what is going on, is that there are different factions among the police, and they have different ideas about how to proceed. And there are different leaders of different departments, who each have different ideas about how to proceed. Just for example, the St Louis County police leadership & the County prosecutor all made it pretty clear that they thought the soft approach of the state highway patrol was BS.

They probably don't have a perfectly formed command structure of all these different police groups that are involved. So you get different groups in different locations, with a different philosophy or perhaps we could say, 'interpretation' of the orders (even though they may all have the same general orders), and reacting to events on the ground at their location.

And then after each day's events, they regroup and re-plan and I'll bet that, for instance, when the police held back and then there was some looting, that the hardliners' power was increased by quite a bit and that's one reason there were more crackdowns the next day. And so on.

That's the way it strikes me, anyway--different factions with fundamentally different ideas about how to approach the situation, vying for control and each carrying the day at different times.

Partly this is because even though the Governor & Hwy Patrol have come in and asserted control, their control is somewhat tenuous and being actively resisted or subverted by the county & city police. We've seen evidence of all of those things in various ways over the past week.
posted by flug at 8:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Honestly I'm just expecting the "blah or you will be subject to arrest" is a CYA so when the cops get to bust out all their dangerous and expensive toys, they will be able to tick the line on the report saying that they warned their victims first.
posted by cmyk at 8:53 PM on August 18, 2014

My heart is just breaking for this town, this country.
posted by argonauta at 8:53 PM on August 18, 2014 [7 favorites]

Vice was across the street from the QT, which I believe is north of where the livestream is. But they are on the move, right now. Wall of photojournalists. Bored cop, reiterating orders to disperse, get out of the street, keep moving...or you will be subject to arrest or "other" actions.

Cops piling out of swat vans on livestream.
posted by dejah420 at 8:56 PM on August 18, 2014

I agree flug. Like a lot of things, the incompetence of all these divisions of cops to deal with one set of protests in one neighborhood, for one victim, would be comic if it weren't so fucking dangerous and tragic.
posted by emjaybee at 8:56 PM on August 18, 2014

Seeing reports of things people are calling "new tactics"—things like sending squads of riot police into the crowd to grab individual protesters and drag them away, or forcing people to walk in a specific direction and then closing off that direction, trapping people. These are all out of the modern anti-protest police playbook; I saw these same tactics used during the Toronto G20 summit in 2010.
posted by chrominance at 8:56 PM on August 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

Oh shit, the angry clown car is in motion.
posted by palomar at 8:57 PM on August 18, 2014

It almost gives me hope in a "the people united will never be defeated" type of thing, because...these fucking incompetent thugs can't actually win, right? Right?
posted by mynameisluka at 8:57 PM on August 18, 2014

If you squint your eyes right the scene in Ferguson right now looks like a Mardi Gras parade: people on the sidewalks holding cameras, and an empty street with a line of people in costume just waiting to advance, but not moving. Maybe their float broke down.
posted by komara at 8:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

About those LRADS: remember, this is a residential neighborhood, where children live. Children, with their greater sensitivity to high-frequency sounds.

The thing that's stopping me from just laying my head on my desk and having a good sob about this is that there are so many Black protesters, activists, and reporters being so goddamn brave and persistent under incredible adversity that I am just in awe.
posted by gingerest at 8:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

If the President of the United States is paralyzed because he's black, is he fully the President?

Maybe they think if he says anything, the hillbillies will go off the deep end once and for all?

Is it possible the powers-that-be actually agree with little old me on how close we are to a revolution?
posted by Trochanter at 8:58 PM on August 18, 2014

Many people pointing out tactic of swarming one person, but also putting a perimeter around the violence to hide the swarming. At least from people on the same level; this picture seems to be from a little higher up.
posted by emjaybee at 8:59 PM on August 18, 2014

And now, here come the gas masks.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:59 PM on August 18, 2014

Fuck, the Vice feed is just awful
posted by Jalliah at 9:00 PM on August 18, 2014

these fucking incompetent thugs can't actually win, right? Right?

If the occupy movement taught us anything, yes, yes they can win. Unless you are a group of armed angry right wing white men pointing guns at law enforcement, you will probably lose.
posted by el io at 9:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

I mean what it's showing going on, not the feed itself.
posted by Jalliah at 9:00 PM on August 18, 2014

"ALL MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA PLEASE SEPARATE YOURSELVES FROM THE PROTESTERS IMMEDIATELY" #Ferguson

Oh, crap. That can't be good.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:01 PM on August 18, 2014

That Obama has become this ineffective on race issues makes me really worried about what would happen for women's issues should HRC be elected.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:02 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Oh fuck.
posted by Iridic at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Can anyone tell me where the Mike Brown and Vice reporters are? I keep seeing references to QT; is that where they're at?

My knowledge of the geography of Ferguson, MO is sorely lacking.
posted by spinifex23 at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2014

tear gas fired
posted by dejah420 at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Teargas being fired - Vice feed.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2014

KARG feed has died on me, just a spinning wheel.

Teargas near the Quik Trip area, bunch of cans.
posted by cortex at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2014

Tear gas being thrown and flashbangs
posted by Jalliah at 9:04 PM on August 18, 2014

Flashbangs and tear gas from multiple directions, possible gunshots fired. Via Vice feed.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:04 PM on August 18, 2014

OK - they ARE at QT.
posted by spinifex23 at 9:05 PM on August 18, 2014

vice reporter just got hit with rubber bullet
posted by dejah420 at 9:05 PM on August 18, 2014

WHY THE FUCK DO THEY KEEP FIRING TEARGAS? Because someone threw a bottle?? What the fuck? What happens if someone does something really threatening - do they drop a bomb?
posted by triggerfinger at 9:05 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Vice narrator said he got hit in the leg with a rubber bullet. Surprised at how calm he is.

LRAD going off.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:05 PM on August 18, 2014

KARG is having trouble, but it comes back when I reload.

They seem to be alternating LRAD and teargas.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:06 PM on August 18, 2014

Is that a fire in the distance? (seen on KARG feed)
posted by sallybrown at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014

spinifex23: “My knowledge of the geography of Ferguson, MO is sorely lacking.”

“The one map you need to understand tonight's Ferguson protests,” Dara Lind, Vox, 18 August 2014

Direct Link to the image.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

The Vice stream is down the street from the Argus stream, which means that line of police in the Argus stream and the police firing tear gas in the Vice stream have blocked off both exits of the portion of the street with all the protesters.
posted by chrominance at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014

Holy fuck, how is this happening!
posted by dejah420 at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014

They're taking a break on MSNBC so Chris Hayes can put his gas mask on.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014

Is that a fire in the distance? (seen on KARG feed)

Yes - it's on the Vice feed too.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:07 PM on August 18, 2014

There were rumors of gunfire; was that ever substantiated?

Thanks for the map, ob1quixote
posted by spinifex23 at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014

oh, just cutting away from him.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014

Two tabs with livestreams plus the coverage on TV plus this thread. I have lost my damn mind.
posted by rtha at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Vice guys reporting gunshots; "large successions of live fire...fuck". Now they're running. They're scared.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice is reporting live fire. Lots of gunshots.
posted by chrominance at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014

Bunch of police SUVs convoying up the street from main media/police area toward Quick Trip; Vice crew coughing from gas but some of them masked now, just all hit the grown to the sound of gunfire of some sort, cops moving in and yelling.
posted by cortex at 9:09 PM on August 18, 2014

This VICE stream is so stressful I want to puke.
posted by SarahElizaP at 9:10 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Holy shit - Vice saying large successions of live fire. Stream is barely holding up for me.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:10 PM on August 18, 2014

Fuck. That sounded like real shooting.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:10 PM on August 18, 2014

Why is everyone in the vice feed lying down. Oh, now they are running.
posted by rtha at 9:10 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Had to close both feeds as they were both completely crapping out on me and now I am just sitting in a well-lit room feeling helpless.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, this isn't like Katrina at all. Right down to the incometence of top leadership in the white house.
posted by futz at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Vice feed is like fucking Blair Witch Project, jesus.
posted by emjaybee at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Christ, the Vice feed resembled something out of Blair Witch.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Yeah, more than at other times when "gunshots were reported," that sounded like live rounds.
posted by StopMakingSense at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice feed just went down.

Fuck.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:11 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice team booked it away from where they were after what looked like a lot of loud shouting and pointing by some geared up riot cops.
posted by cortex at 9:12 PM on August 18, 2014

rtha There was what sounded like a bunch of gunshots and everyone dropped and then started running away from them
posted by Jalliah at 9:12 PM on August 18, 2014

I have been watching this for a few nights in a row and it seems like the gunshots follow the tear gas and flash bangs.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:12 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice feed is back up.
posted by palomar at 9:13 PM on August 18, 2014

Can someone post the vice feed again please?
posted by pearlybob at 9:13 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice said they thought the gunshots were from protesters
posted by triggerfinger at 9:13 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice feed.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:14 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:14 PM on August 18, 2014

Vice feed
posted by jessicapierce at 9:14 PM on August 18, 2014

Thanks
posted by pearlybob at 9:15 PM on August 18, 2014

Remember, streets are for cars, not for people. Bow before the almighty automobile.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:15 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

what a shitshow
posted by H. Roark at 9:16 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh my god. Who thought that live streams of YouTube comments would be a good idea?
posted by schmod at 9:16 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

This won't wendell.
posted by uosuaq at 9:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Any verification that what we've been seeing that looked like fire north of the KARG stream and south of the Vice stream was actually a fire vs. bright-ass police vehicle lights shining/diffracting through an assload of smoke?
posted by cortex at 9:17 PM on August 18, 2014

"Oh my god. Who thought that live streams of YouTube comments would be a good idea?"

Yeah, no shit, eh. I read one comment 'new drinking game - have a shot every time a racist comment appears'. Not five minutes later a comment 'great game, I'm drunk already'.

sigh.
posted by el io at 9:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

This is the nightmare the state government of Missouri wanted. If they didn't want this, they could have stopped it. We all should take it to the streets tomorrow.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Is there a way to hide the comments on the side of Vice livestream on YouTube?
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:18 PM on August 18, 2014

Is there a way to hide the comments on the side of Vice livestream on YouTube?

Click the "theatre mode" (wide view) box at the lower right by the tool "gear" icon.
posted by Rumple at 9:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Is there a way to hide the comments on the side of Vice livestream on YouTube?"

Click the 'theatre' button on the lower right side of the video. Comments should be gone then (or at least not on the side).
posted by el io at 9:22 PM on August 18, 2014

There should be a "hide comments" link right under the comments, if you're watching on YouTube itself.

Not five minutes later a comment 'great game, I'm drunk already'.
I wouldn't last five seconds, even if the game was limited to straight-up slurs.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 9:22 PM on August 18, 2014

This woman, a local neighbor, that Tim Pool of Vice was just talking to--they just need to appoint her Mayor of Ferguson, and then--problem solved.
posted by flug at 9:22 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 18 August 2014

posted by ob1quixote at 9:25 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

It's been more than an hour of tense standoff -- my recollection is that in previous nights things came to a head pretty quickly and then ended, no?

I find it hard to imagine the sheer stress and adrenaline that must be running through everyone there.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:30 PM on August 18, 2014

90-95% of the people I see in the live feeds are either media or cops, anyone else seeing anything different?
posted by desjardins at 9:39 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

"Anyone on the Ferguson Market parking lot needs to disperse - except for the media."

"Do it now."
posted by komara at 9:44 PM on August 18, 2014

There are too many real rifles in that riot line I'm seeing on the KARG feed.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:46 PM on August 18, 2014

Media have been told to GTFO from the staging area where the riot line was being filmed before, to head up to the Target(?), including the KARG crew. Basically "leave the area or you will be arrested".

A few arrests have been made already. So they separated out the media from the protestors, and now they're forcing the media to move. There were a lot of rifles in that riot line.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:57 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Oh hey the thread is loading again.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:57 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

While the thread was down for me all kinds of crazy shit happened on the Vice feed. Yikes.
posted by lookoutbelow at 9:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Thread taxing the server pretty hard; consider hanging out in chat to lighten the load a bit.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:58 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Except now it's down.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:59 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Just watched a cop rip a Vice reporter's "PRESS" tag off and tell him it "doesn't mean shit".

Daaaaamn.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:00 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm beginning to think we need to get a UN peacekeeping mission into Ferguson. The Haiti one is relatively close by, but I think the Kosovo or DRC groups might be more appropriate.
posted by happyroach at 10:03 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Cop was asking for press credentials for access into press staging area, re: "doesn't mean shit" comment.
posted by MetalFingerz at 10:03 PM on August 18, 2014

[Thread taxing the server pretty hard; consider anging out in chat to lighten the load a bit.]
posted by cortex at 12:58 AM on 8/19

Or start a new thread? Same Op etc but part 2? Why not?
posted by futz at 10:06 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The cop was asking for his press credentials which he didn't have but let him through after the other Vice News journalists he was with vouched for him. I'm not sure why it was necessary to rip the reporter's press tag off and throw it on the ground.

It really sucks how they just shuffled all of the media completely away from the scene before they start arresting people.

Vice should try to get on top of someone's house or a building and see if they can get a vantage point for their camera.

They should be trying to find out more about who is doing the shooting.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

This woman, a local neighbor, that Tim Pool of Vice was just talking to--they just need to appoint her Mayor of Ferguson, and then--problem solved.

FYI you can watch her telling about her experiences the last few days and her ideas about some of the problems that need to be addressed here (2:54:30 in the Vice feed).
posted by flug at 10:07 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

She passed out Freeze pops!!
posted by pearlybob at 10:08 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Who do you call in to stop a Police Riot?
posted by drezdn at 10:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

It's interesting how many people interviewed on the livestream, even amidst the rage about the shooting, zoom in more in their comments on big picture issues like, "How are we going to start improving education?" This is a whole big broken system even beyond the police.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:11 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

The CNN international B-team is on the air and the English anchorwoman (who may thus have a bit of a lack of historical context) was wondering to a correspondent why it was necessary to be using tear gas and stuff and why not use water cannon instead? You guys shoulda seen the side-eye the black co-anchor gave her.

Because if there's one thing that could improve the optics here it's the cops turning the hoses on black protesters.
posted by Justinian at 10:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [24 favorites]

Who do you call in to stop a Police Riot?

The National Guard, and I'd really like to know where they are right about now.

I know that was probably rhetorical, but still.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:17 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

~Who do you call in to stop a Police Riot?

The aristocrats
posted by futz at 10:18 PM on August 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Freeze pops and BBQ --

That's just how we roll in the Midwest. My local Occupy encampment could barely keep up with eating the food people brought them, including local conservative republicans who thought they should get jobs, but who were pleased to see young people engaged in the political process.

My family made them chocolate chip cookies and on that day we delivered cookies they'd had a pancake breakfast sent over by a local conservative businessman and a sub lunch from the democratic women.

People doing community-minded stuff need food, yo! If you want to contribute to local protests and can't be out actually protesting, they always need coffee and donuts.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:23 PM on August 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

Looks like the local Fox reporter on this stream is being arrested for not moving when cops told him to.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:24 PM on August 18, 2014

(No, they let him go)
posted by Drinky Die at 10:25 PM on August 18, 2014

If someone could work up a "where we are since this first happened" new thread about this that isn't just a single link excuse to start a new thread about the situation in Ferguson, that would be great for the server
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:26 PM on August 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Nah, let's try and crash this thing!
posted by Drinky Die at 10:27 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Seconding the new thread idea with some kind of summary of past events.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:28 PM on August 18, 2014

"we're having technical issues and here's the new link" isn't good enough? I'm kind of sad that so many of tonight's events are getting eaten by the chat, people already in bed won't be able to see what happened tomorrow.
posted by zug at 10:30 PM on August 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

I would love sources for more protests and reactions like this, or more detailed discussions on voting/elections in Missouri if someone is working up a new post.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:30 PM on August 18, 2014

What is wrong with just having a Part 2 link of the same post? Quick and simple server relief. That said, some industrious mefite will have already have put a post together in the time it took me to comment.
posted by futz at 10:37 PM on August 18, 2014

Missouri schools suffer due to funding shortfall.
posted by drezdn at 10:38 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Looks like the locals are ejecting outsiders?

Are these the "troublemakers?" Because honestly I thought the "Outside agitators" was just Police bullshit
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:45 PM on August 18, 2014

It is my understanding that the police have not acknowleged outside agitators at all despite the claims of the locals.
posted by futz at 10:51 PM on August 18, 2014

Elon James White audio livestreaming saying they're tear gassing the neighborhood? They just drove around a barrier.
posted by zix at 10:56 PM on August 18, 2014

Not outside agitators in the sense the cops like to claim -- ie, the Ferguson natives would be all happy and quiet if it wasn't for them foreign folks riling them up -- but any event draws in people of many motives. Some mercenary, including some looking to steal, some looking to cause trouble where the after affects won't hit them, some people who may have good intentions but terrible tactics, etc
posted by tavella at 10:57 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

people of many motives.

Don't forget the ones who are undercover feds!
Not saying that's happening here, but it seems pretty common in general. And now, off to the other thread!
posted by hap_hazard at 11:16 PM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Justinian: "Obama himself identified another important reason he can't give the speech a lot of you seem to want him to give; the DOJ is investigating the situation and the DOJ works for him. You know the county prosecutor who said it was terrible that the cops were being disrespected by having supervising authority transferred to someone else? And how people were all 'OH MY GOD that's a total conflict of interest and now he needs to recuse himself from the case'? That's exactly what Obama would be doing. You can't have the President making conclusive statements about a situation the DOJ is investigating. It shouldn't take much reflection to see what that is the case."

This seems quite incorrect to me, and I explained why above: George H W Bush did exactly that - made some conclusive and strong statements about the Rodney King beating, saying it made him and his whole family sick to watch it and that he didn't know how he could explain it to his grandchildren - George H W Bush, not a notoriously brave or pro-civil-rights president. And he did this while the DOJ investigation was still ongoing.

Barack Obama absolutely could say some definite things about this. If he holds back, it's not because he's judged differently as President or as head of the DOJ, because as I said presidents have done this before. The issue is not that he's the President; the issue is that he's black, and that voters see him as only helping out his own whenever he speaks about justice for black people.
posted by koeselitz at 11:27 PM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

Here's the new post/thread. (Note that I deleted several comments here about the first new post, then the final new post, to make it easier and less confusing for folks to follow on to the current continuing discussion.)
posted by taz (staff) at 11:47 PM on August 18, 2014

All Four Eyewitness Accounts of The Murder of Michael Brown Put In Chronological Order: The most detailed side-by-side telling of each eyewitness account of the Mike Brown murder in chronological order (SLYt)

Two (white) construction workers on the scene when Darren Wilson murdered Mike Brown have come forward, and confirmed that Brown had his hands up when Wilson shot him. Trigger warning for the description of the murder.
posted by magstheaxe at 5:38 PM on September 6, 2014 [3 favorites]

« Older 2014 Fields Medals | The Sky(lab) is Falling! Newer »

This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments

"Don’t shoot me" August 12, 2014 1:53 PM Subscribe

Tags

Share

"Don’t shoot me"
August 12, 2014 1:53 PM Subscribe