The culture of poverty does not exist
September 17, 2014 3:49 AM Subscribe
The importance of the culture-of-poverty approach is that it allows for recognition of the accumulated history of racism and inequality, but posits the ongoing effects of these as mediated through black cultural pathologies. It therefore permits American liberals to identify with opposition to racism while pushing them towards policy solutions geared towards the transformation of black people, and not American society.With every crisis in Black America the same pathologies the Black community supposedly suffers from -- veneration of the criminal lifestyle, lack of proper family structures, abhorrence of education as acting white -- are trotted out as an explanation, by conservative commentators as that's just how those people are, by supposed liberals as the unfortunate end product of Black history in America. There's just one problem: they're lies. The culture of poverty does not exist.
But... but... if if it's not culture, then it must be prejudice! And I'm not prejudiced!
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:04 AM on September 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:04 AM on September 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
I must spend too much time on Tumblr and Twitter, because my first thought was, "people still think that?"
posted by mikewebkist at 5:42 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mikewebkist at 5:42 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
" The article went on to say that Brown “lived in a community that had rough patches, and he dabbled in drugs and alcohol."
Dabbled? Yeah, like no one at the NYT has taken cocaine or drank a load of expensive whisky. Man the things the poor kid has done that make him "no angel" are so fucking lame it is difficult to understand how anyone could be swayed by such rubbish.
posted by marienbad at 5:43 AM on September 17, 2014 [38 favorites]
Dabbled? Yeah, like no one at the NYT has taken cocaine or drank a load of expensive whisky. Man the things the poor kid has done that make him "no angel" are so fucking lame it is difficult to understand how anyone could be swayed by such rubbish.
posted by marienbad at 5:43 AM on September 17, 2014 [38 favorites]
I'm not sure how anybody manages to believe these things are actually A Thing with respect to the black community if they actually own a television or leave their houses. Like, the notion that rap music means black kids grow up wanting to go to prison? This is 2014. Eminem is 41 years old. What kind of rock do you have to be living under to still trot that out?
posted by Sequence at 5:44 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 5:44 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
What kind of rock do you have to be living under to still trot that out?
Watch TV sometime, for real. How are black people typically portrayed on TV? Worse, how are they portrayed on daytime TV?
I think you're dramatically underestimating the number of people who watch the sort of shows you disdain. If you really want to level up on what a horrorshow the media landscape is try listening to AM radio.
posted by mhoye at 5:55 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Watch TV sometime, for real. How are black people typically portrayed on TV? Worse, how are they portrayed on daytime TV?
I think you're dramatically underestimating the number of people who watch the sort of shows you disdain. If you really want to level up on what a horrorshow the media landscape is try listening to AM radio.
posted by mhoye at 5:55 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
I'm not saying I don't see how people can be racist in 2014. I'm saying I don't see how people can think that rap and hip hop aren't a part of white youth culture, how people can think that having kids outside of wedlock is a black thing, those sorts of specific arguments, when real life and the media are both full of counterexamples. Someone saying they think black people are violent because of TV would at least be honest. Someone saying they think black people are violent because of rap music cannot possibly be a good-faith argument in this day and age.
posted by Sequence at 6:01 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by Sequence at 6:01 AM on September 17, 2014
One of this year's winners of the MacArthur Foundation awards is Jennifer L. Eberhardt. She studies "the subtle, complex, largely unconscious yet deeply ingrained ways that individuals racially code and categorize people, with a particular focus on associations between race and crime. ... Her studies regarding visual attention and racial bias in modern policing and criminal sentencing offer concrete demonstrations that stereotypic associations between race and crime directly impact how individuals behave and make decisions, often with far-ranging ramifications."
Between her work and everything referenced in the link, I have no doubt that society will....continue to rely on wrong and racist notions of "truth" rather than acknowledge that internalized bias makes for terrible public policy.
posted by rtha at 6:01 AM on September 17, 2014 [23 favorites]
Between her work and everything referenced in the link, I have no doubt that society will....continue to rely on wrong and racist notions of "truth" rather than acknowledge that internalized bias makes for terrible public policy.
posted by rtha at 6:01 AM on September 17, 2014 [23 favorites]
A larger percentage of black women are currently in college than any other race/gender group.
Think about that, and then think about how black women are portrayed in the media.
posted by miyabo at 6:07 AM on September 17, 2014 [82 favorites]
Think about that, and then think about how black women are portrayed in the media.
posted by miyabo at 6:07 AM on September 17, 2014 [82 favorites]
This is a good article that makes a really good point about how structural social issues get mapped onto or into psychological issues. I liked this bit:
I had one quibble, though, which is that no one who is serious about these issues, that I know anyway, makes the mistake of forgetting Moynihan's bona fides and motivations.
posted by OmieWise at 6:08 AM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
The upshot is that even sympathetic observers tend to interpret concerns about deprivation and social disorganization through the prism of cultural or psychological damage. That dynamic is particularly evident in our proclivity to attribute problems like crime or violence in black neighborhoods to ill-defined features of black men’s emotional existence. As a consequence, responsibility for these issues is commonly attributed to such causes as a lack of self-regard among African-American males, their purportedly nihilistic and myopic worldview, or their orientation on short-term, narrowly self-interested gain over long-term ambition and social uplift.Of course, it's also true that there are substantial psychological sequelae to growing up oppressed, disenfranchised, and poor. These are exacerbated by high rates of incarceration and trauma associated with societal violence. These things are all caused by, not causes of, the structural issues experienced by poor oppressed communities.
I had one quibble, though, which is that no one who is serious about these issues, that I know anyway, makes the mistake of forgetting Moynihan's bona fides and motivations.
posted by OmieWise at 6:08 AM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is a great article and I was going, "of course, of course" until I got to the part about education. This is the first time I've heard a counter argument to, well, everything else I have been exposed to.
I went to high school in Louisiana in the early 90's at a school that was 50/50 black/white (with about 10% other minorities), and students tended to self-segregate. I was an honor student, and there were only about 3 or 4 black students in honors classes. One day two of them opened up in biology class and told us that they felt that they didn't fit in anywhere. That they didn't really fit in among the honor students because they were black and we weren't, but that black students told them they were selling out their race in taking honors classes so they didn't feel they fit in there, either. This was a new concept to me at the time, and it made their achievements seem all that more impressive, frankly, because they were dealing with social pressures in addition to the rigors of the classes.
At some point I read A Hope in the Unseen, which reinforces this.
Knowing more about how teachers make assumptions based on race, even when they don't intend to, I've been chalking it up to not wanting to play a game that is obviously rigged, and not in your favor. Which makes total sense to me. So but now who is right? Do I discount what my black peers told me they experienced? Or is it the research? Perhaps a person is more willing to put down on a survey when they know no one is looking that yes, they want to achieve, but then in public do not want to look like chumps who would willingly go along with a messed up system that doesn't treat them fairly. Telegraphing that attitude to others is culture, certainly, but it's culture that is driven by unfair treatment. I don't know, at this point I'm just thinking out loud.
posted by antinomia at 6:12 AM on September 17, 2014 [14 favorites]
I went to high school in Louisiana in the early 90's at a school that was 50/50 black/white (with about 10% other minorities), and students tended to self-segregate. I was an honor student, and there were only about 3 or 4 black students in honors classes. One day two of them opened up in biology class and told us that they felt that they didn't fit in anywhere. That they didn't really fit in among the honor students because they were black and we weren't, but that black students told them they were selling out their race in taking honors classes so they didn't feel they fit in there, either. This was a new concept to me at the time, and it made their achievements seem all that more impressive, frankly, because they were dealing with social pressures in addition to the rigors of the classes.
At some point I read A Hope in the Unseen, which reinforces this.
Knowing more about how teachers make assumptions based on race, even when they don't intend to, I've been chalking it up to not wanting to play a game that is obviously rigged, and not in your favor. Which makes total sense to me. So but now who is right? Do I discount what my black peers told me they experienced? Or is it the research? Perhaps a person is more willing to put down on a survey when they know no one is looking that yes, they want to achieve, but then in public do not want to look like chumps who would willingly go along with a messed up system that doesn't treat them fairly. Telegraphing that attitude to others is culture, certainly, but it's culture that is driven by unfair treatment. I don't know, at this point I'm just thinking out loud.
posted by antinomia at 6:12 AM on September 17, 2014 [14 favorites]
I'm saying I don't see how people can think that rap and hip hop aren't a part of white youth culture
If you're in a community that is predominantly white and the kids are all listening to country, you don't see them getting into hip-hop.
how people can think that having kids outside of wedlock is a black thing
If you're in a community that is predominantly white and any of the kids who get pregnant get hidden away, you don't see it; or if you do see it, they get ostracized and you can write them off as "the one bad apple" and still believe that white kids don't do that.
when real life and the media are both full of counterexamples.
Real life discussed above. The media shows mostly black examples of the above, and there are also media channells that don't touch on either subject at all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:17 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
If you're in a community that is predominantly white and the kids are all listening to country, you don't see them getting into hip-hop.
how people can think that having kids outside of wedlock is a black thing
If you're in a community that is predominantly white and any of the kids who get pregnant get hidden away, you don't see it; or if you do see it, they get ostracized and you can write them off as "the one bad apple" and still believe that white kids don't do that.
when real life and the media are both full of counterexamples.
Real life discussed above. The media shows mostly black examples of the above, and there are also media channells that don't touch on either subject at all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:17 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
The stigma about 'acting white' is a real thing, but I never really thought of it as being about education, it's more about assimilation and code-switching and abandoning the culture they were raised in, which is something common to pretty much every ethnic culture in the US.
posted by empath at 6:17 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by empath at 6:17 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
the subtle, complex, largely unconscious yet deeply ingrained ways that individuals racially code and categorize people, with a particular focus on associations between race and crime
Aliya Saperstein has been involved in a bunch of studies that show that not only do people ascribe stereotypical ideas about people they perceive to be a certain race, but the race that people are perceived to be is influenced by how well they track racial stereotypes.
For example, coroners are more likely to describe homicide victims as 'black', and people who die of alcoholism as 'native american'.
posted by empath at 6:22 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Aliya Saperstein has been involved in a bunch of studies that show that not only do people ascribe stereotypical ideas about people they perceive to be a certain race, but the race that people are perceived to be is influenced by how well they track racial stereotypes.
For example, coroners are more likely to describe homicide victims as 'black', and people who die of alcoholism as 'native american'.
posted by empath at 6:22 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
This is a really interesting article.
As a consequence, responsibility for these issues is commonly attributed to such causes as a lack of self-regard among African-American males, their purportedly nihilistic and myopic worldview, or their orientation on short-term, narrowly self-interested gain over long-term ambition and social uplift.
And hence pushing any "solution" back on individual choices, rather than structural fixes or any kind of collective action or government program (liberal or conservative).
When the supply of employed, non-incarcerated men is controlled for, black and white marriage rates look more similar than different.
I understand exactly the point being made, but at the same time incarceration is the biggest manifestation of structural racism I can think of in US society, and controlling for it is kind of like saying that if you control for oxygen, breathing on earth and on the moon is just as easy. Incarceration is a primary driver of the dynamics being described, rather than a secondary variable you control for while looking at other issues. Again, I get the point about marriage rates; it's just a weird way to frame it.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on September 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
As a consequence, responsibility for these issues is commonly attributed to such causes as a lack of self-regard among African-American males, their purportedly nihilistic and myopic worldview, or their orientation on short-term, narrowly self-interested gain over long-term ambition and social uplift.
And hence pushing any "solution" back on individual choices, rather than structural fixes or any kind of collective action or government program (liberal or conservative).
When the supply of employed, non-incarcerated men is controlled for, black and white marriage rates look more similar than different.
I understand exactly the point being made, but at the same time incarceration is the biggest manifestation of structural racism I can think of in US society, and controlling for it is kind of like saying that if you control for oxygen, breathing on earth and on the moon is just as easy. Incarceration is a primary driver of the dynamics being described, rather than a secondary variable you control for while looking at other issues. Again, I get the point about marriage rates; it's just a weird way to frame it.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on September 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
The uh, 'good thing' about the 'culture of poverty' argument is that it's so easy to discursively disembowel it by pointing out that it relies on an argument that there's no racism, it's just that black people are inferior.
posted by entropone at 6:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by entropone at 6:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The uh, 'good thing' about the 'culture of poverty' argument is that it's so easy to discursively disembowel it by pointing out that it relies on an argument that there's no racism, it's just that black people are inferior.
But that's to assume the argument is that a "culture of poverty" exists only in black communities.
That's not the case.
posted by kgasmart at 6:36 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
But that's to assume the argument is that a "culture of poverty" exists only in black communities.
That's not the case.
posted by kgasmart at 6:36 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Seconding (thirding, whatever) the really interesting article sentiment. However, I'm from the UK. Can anyone point me to the equivalent evidence for Britain or Europe?
posted by lovelyzoo at 6:40 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by lovelyzoo at 6:40 AM on September 17, 2014
The uh, 'good thing' about the 'culture of poverty' argument is that it's so easy to discursively disembowel
but then who are they really arguing with? are two young white "radical" sociologists really going to go up and tell Bill Cosby he's Uncle Ruckus? or are they yelling at mom and dad again?
and then this essay is full of little bon mots of talking too much and thinking too little:
"Fundamentally, gun violence has to be treated like other kinds of public health problems..." what? that's dumb.
"Moynihan himself was no Strom Thurmond, but a Great Society liberal with impeccable credentials..." like working for Nixon? Moynihan's white Catholic northerner urban racist credentials are pretty bona fide.
"As the uprising in Ferguson has highlighted the connection between American imperialism and militarism on the home front..." Come the fuck on. Laughably pompous and what marxist actually thinks about the connection between imperialism and capitalism this way.
young white academic professional radicals breathe too much oxygen when they talk for the rest of the room.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:47 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
but then who are they really arguing with? are two young white "radical" sociologists really going to go up and tell Bill Cosby he's Uncle Ruckus? or are they yelling at mom and dad again?
and then this essay is full of little bon mots of talking too much and thinking too little:
"Fundamentally, gun violence has to be treated like other kinds of public health problems..." what? that's dumb.
"Moynihan himself was no Strom Thurmond, but a Great Society liberal with impeccable credentials..." like working for Nixon? Moynihan's white Catholic northerner urban racist credentials are pretty bona fide.
"As the uprising in Ferguson has highlighted the connection between American imperialism and militarism on the home front..." Come the fuck on. Laughably pompous and what marxist actually thinks about the connection between imperialism and capitalism this way.
young white academic professional radicals breathe too much oxygen when they talk for the rest of the room.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:47 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Fundamentally, gun violence has to be treated like other kinds of public health problems..." what? that's dumb.
Why do you say that? It's neither a new nor a radical idea.
posted by rtha at 6:52 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
Why do you say that? It's neither a new nor a radical idea.
posted by rtha at 6:52 AM on September 17, 2014 [9 favorites]
The stigma about 'acting white' is a real thing, but I never really thought of it as being about education, it's more about assimilation and code-switching and abandoning the culture they were raised in, which is something common to pretty much every ethnic culture in the US.
I don’t think this is actually specific to ethnicity. Beating up on the nerds has been a thing since forever. “Acting white” is the POC version of being a nerd — speaking “proper” English, pulling your pants up, giving your teacher an apple — all the other things that are often (even if mistakenly) associated with white culture. I’m quite certain that plenty of white students treat kids who conform to that archetype almost exactly the same way, regardless of race.
posted by El Mariachi at 6:52 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don’t think this is actually specific to ethnicity. Beating up on the nerds has been a thing since forever. “Acting white” is the POC version of being a nerd — speaking “proper” English, pulling your pants up, giving your teacher an apple — all the other things that are often (even if mistakenly) associated with white culture. I’m quite certain that plenty of white students treat kids who conform to that archetype almost exactly the same way, regardless of race.
posted by El Mariachi at 6:52 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Wait, a second, you mean to say that a foundation of Conservative ideology has no bearing on reality? What are you trying to pull here, my leg?
posted by Legomancer at 7:04 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Legomancer at 7:04 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Fundamentally, gun violence has to be treated like other kinds of public health problems..." what? that's dumb.
Why do you say that? It's neither a new nor a radical idea.
I guess I don't follow these things close enough to not be shocked by how stupid things have become.
Does that make the violence (police and otherwise) in Ferguson a public health issue? It's part of the way the "social justice" left instinctively try to depoliticize larger social problems as part of their meta-politics within radical circles.
The fact that it plays into the hands of people who don't really have social justice at heart doesn't matter:
posted by ennui.bz at 7:06 AM on September 17, 2014
Why do you say that? It's neither a new nor a radical idea.
I guess I don't follow these things close enough to not be shocked by how stupid things have become.
Does that make the violence (police and otherwise) in Ferguson a public health issue? It's part of the way the "social justice" left instinctively try to depoliticize larger social problems as part of their meta-politics within radical circles.
The fact that it plays into the hands of people who don't really have social justice at heart doesn't matter:
Preventing gun violence will require a scientific public health approach and recognition of the limits of predicting individual cases of violence, according to experts slated to speak at the American Psychological Association’s 122nd Annual Convention.The causes of gun violence in black urban communities are intimately tied to the trade in illegal drugs. This is an economic and political problem not a public health problem.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:06 AM on September 17, 2014
but then who are they really arguing with? are two young white "radical" sociologists really going to go up and tell Bill Cosby he's Uncle Ruckus? or are they yelling at mom and dad again.
oh, come on, don't do the knee-jerk 'i don't wanna have a conversation so i'll spew silly assumptions all over the place' thing.
i'm thinking about a jillion conversations i've had with moderates & liberals who like the idea of a better world but have a sneaking suspicioun that people who don't live in the kinds of neighborhoods that have wine bars might just be kind of Different. They see all this crap on the news and don't really know what to think. They don't want to to be racist but they're susceptible to racist suggestion from talking heads.
And that's when people who have thought this through say things like "actually the rates of drug use and drug incarceration are wildly disproportionate" or "well it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that racism isn't a problem if your point is that people of color are just inferior." Because conversation is possible.
posted by entropone at 7:06 AM on September 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
oh, come on, don't do the knee-jerk 'i don't wanna have a conversation so i'll spew silly assumptions all over the place' thing.
i'm thinking about a jillion conversations i've had with moderates & liberals who like the idea of a better world but have a sneaking suspicioun that people who don't live in the kinds of neighborhoods that have wine bars might just be kind of Different. They see all this crap on the news and don't really know what to think. They don't want to to be racist but they're susceptible to racist suggestion from talking heads.
And that's when people who have thought this through say things like "actually the rates of drug use and drug incarceration are wildly disproportionate" or "well it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that racism isn't a problem if your point is that people of color are just inferior." Because conversation is possible.
posted by entropone at 7:06 AM on September 17, 2014 [13 favorites]
The causes of gun violence in black urban communities are intimately tied to the trade in illegal drugs. This is an economic and political problem not a public health problem.
There are a lot of public health problems that are also economic and political problems.
And/or, there are a lot of economic and political problems that affect the health of the public.
posted by entropone at 7:09 AM on September 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
There are a lot of public health problems that are also economic and political problems.
And/or, there are a lot of economic and political problems that affect the health of the public.
posted by entropone at 7:09 AM on September 17, 2014 [19 favorites]
Yeah, treating gun violence as a public health issue doesn't mean treating it only as a public health issue. Nobody argues that.
posted by rtha at 7:16 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rtha at 7:16 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
The causes of gun violence in black urban communities are intimately tied to the trade in illegal drugs.
Illegal drug use and trade IS a public health problem! There's nothing apolitical about public health, though it does tend to be a politics of the administrative state and NGOs/community groups rather than the legislative and electoral understanding of politics. (To me that's a plus: defining politics as "the things professional politicians do to get elected" is clearly wrong.)
It helps a bit that the public health approach to gun violence has been pretty successful.
Until this year, it also seemed to be a major factor in declining incarceration rates, though now who the hell knows anymore, the recession ends and we can afford to splurge on some more domination of our fellow humans, I guess.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:18 AM on September 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
Illegal drug use and trade IS a public health problem! There's nothing apolitical about public health, though it does tend to be a politics of the administrative state and NGOs/community groups rather than the legislative and electoral understanding of politics. (To me that's a plus: defining politics as "the things professional politicians do to get elected" is clearly wrong.)
It helps a bit that the public health approach to gun violence has been pretty successful.
Until this year, it also seemed to be a major factor in declining incarceration rates, though now who the hell knows anymore, the recession ends and we can afford to splurge on some more domination of our fellow humans, I guess.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:18 AM on September 17, 2014 [15 favorites]
I think anyone who has cousins from "the poor side of the family" can tell you that "the culture of poverty" in fact exists.
Structural racism is what prevents many African Americans from escaping and raising their families outside of that culture of poverty.
On average, something like the poorest whites live in communities with higher median wealth and income than the wealthiest blacks.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 7:21 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Structural racism is what prevents many African Americans from escaping and raising their families outside of that culture of poverty.
On average, something like the poorest whites live in communities with higher median wealth and income than the wealthiest blacks.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 7:21 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
i'm thinking about a jillion conversations i've had with moderates & liberals who like the idea of a better world but have a sneaking suspicioun that people who don't live in the kinds of neighborhoods that have wine bars might just be kind of Different. They see all this crap on the news and don't really know what to think. They don't want to to be racist but they're susceptible to racist suggestion from talking heads.
It has been very instructive for me to do work recently with older white folks, who, despite being self-proclaimed liberals, are shockingly racist in many ways (and I suspect sexist, but good at hiding it around me). If grow up soaking in certain assumptions and never having those biases challenged, that's what you get.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
It has been very instructive for me to do work recently with older white folks, who, despite being self-proclaimed liberals, are shockingly racist in many ways (and I suspect sexist, but good at hiding it around me). If grow up soaking in certain assumptions and never having those biases challenged, that's what you get.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
ennui.bz: The fact that it plays into the hands of people who don't really have social justice at heart doesn't matter:
I don't see how your pull-quote or anything in the link you provided suggests that the epidemiological approach to studying gun violence "plays into the hands of people who don't really have social justice at heart." Could you explain what exactly you're suggesting here? The fact is that the spread of gun violence looks a lot like the spread of a communicable disease, so many of the methods of intervening to stop it from spreading have shown promise. I see no evidence that it's part of some sinister ploy to undermine social justice.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:25 AM on September 17, 2014
I don't see how your pull-quote or anything in the link you provided suggests that the epidemiological approach to studying gun violence "plays into the hands of people who don't really have social justice at heart." Could you explain what exactly you're suggesting here? The fact is that the spread of gun violence looks a lot like the spread of a communicable disease, so many of the methods of intervening to stop it from spreading have shown promise. I see no evidence that it's part of some sinister ploy to undermine social justice.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:25 AM on September 17, 2014
I don’t think this is actually specific to ethnicity. Beating up on the nerds has been a thing since forever. “Acting white” is the POC version of being a nerd — speaking “proper” English, pulling your pants up, giving your teacher an apple — all the other things that are often (even if mistakenly) associated with white culture. I’m quite certain that plenty of white students treat kids who conform to that archetype almost exactly the same way, regardless of race.
I'd say it's more a complex combination of what you say here (nerd hate) and the things empath mentions. My experience is in line with antinomia's. I attended a relatively good public school in Mississippi. The racial makeup was about 65/35, but the mix in advanced placement classes was around 95/5 (for my classes).
I appreciate the article. It elucidates some good points. But, looking through the links provided (especially the few for the studies cited; can the EPI analysis of that single data point be considered a "study"?), this feels more like grappling for control of narrative than a definitive stake through the heart of some, though not all, of these assumptions. Which isn't to say those assumptions aren't wrong, just that this article does a weaker job of addressing them than it first appears.
posted by echocollate at 7:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd say it's more a complex combination of what you say here (nerd hate) and the things empath mentions. My experience is in line with antinomia's. I attended a relatively good public school in Mississippi. The racial makeup was about 65/35, but the mix in advanced placement classes was around 95/5 (for my classes).
I appreciate the article. It elucidates some good points. But, looking through the links provided (especially the few for the studies cited; can the EPI analysis of that single data point be considered a "study"?), this feels more like grappling for control of narrative than a definitive stake through the heart of some, though not all, of these assumptions. Which isn't to say those assumptions aren't wrong, just that this article does a weaker job of addressing them than it first appears.
posted by echocollate at 7:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
So but now who is right? Do I discount what my black peers told me they experienced? Or is it the research?
The simplest synthesis of your experience and the research would be to say that the "acting white" stigma against academic achievement exists but is far less widespread than most people assume.
On the other hand, I was at the top of my class academically, and I'm pretty sure I had some skewed opinions about the less academically successful white students at my school. Comments from one or two people dissing school or calling me a nerd can be unwarrantably extrapolated to the attitudes of everyone who doesn't take AP classes.
So, yeah, it's possible your black peers had a skewed view of the attitudes of less-successful students. I think I did.
posted by straight at 7:30 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
The simplest synthesis of your experience and the research would be to say that the "acting white" stigma against academic achievement exists but is far less widespread than most people assume.
On the other hand, I was at the top of my class academically, and I'm pretty sure I had some skewed opinions about the less academically successful white students at my school. Comments from one or two people dissing school or calling me a nerd can be unwarrantably extrapolated to the attitudes of everyone who doesn't take AP classes.
So, yeah, it's possible your black peers had a skewed view of the attitudes of less-successful students. I think I did.
posted by straight at 7:30 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
And that's when people who have thought this through say things like "actually the rates of drug use and drug incarceration are wildly disproportionate" or "well it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that racism isn't a problem if your point is that people of color are just inferior." Because conversation is possible.
but that's the problem with zombie ideas. you have your conversation, state your indisputable facts, and the next morning they're back.
the problem is whether you can convince mom and dad that their whole lives are supported by a system based on exploitation and racism, and the only thing is to jump off the backs of the people holding you up and into the shit. Nope. Never going to happen.
you are trying to convince people to give up the power they have in society. it's not about ideas or facts.
There's nothing apolitical about public health, though it does tend to be a politics of the administrative state and NGOs/community groups rather than the legislative and electoral understanding of politics.
this sentence illustrates exactly the problem with "gun violence is a public health problem" if you believe in social justice.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:48 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
but that's the problem with zombie ideas. you have your conversation, state your indisputable facts, and the next morning they're back.
the problem is whether you can convince mom and dad that their whole lives are supported by a system based on exploitation and racism, and the only thing is to jump off the backs of the people holding you up and into the shit. Nope. Never going to happen.
you are trying to convince people to give up the power they have in society. it's not about ideas or facts.
There's nothing apolitical about public health, though it does tend to be a politics of the administrative state and NGOs/community groups rather than the legislative and electoral understanding of politics.
this sentence illustrates exactly the problem with "gun violence is a public health problem" if you believe in social justice.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:48 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
The causes of gun violence in black urban communities are intimately tied to the trade in illegal drugs. This is an economic and political problem not a public health problem.
I think you're working from an outdated view of how professionals address public health problems these days. Everyone involved understands that these things have economic and political underpinnings. Nobody is proposing that we should vaccinate against guns.
posted by mhoye at 7:50 AM on September 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
I think you're working from an outdated view of how professionals address public health problems these days. Everyone involved understands that these things have economic and political underpinnings. Nobody is proposing that we should vaccinate against guns.
posted by mhoye at 7:50 AM on September 17, 2014 [8 favorites]
this sentence illustrates exactly the problem with "gun violence is a public health problem" if you believe in social justice.
I believe in social justice. I also believe that the goals of social justice will involve some community members, interest groups, and mass movements lobbying the state to form administrative bodies that prevent further injustices. If you believe that social justice requires the dissolution of the state, then you may be right but I don't know how to do that and I'll need you to explain it to me.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:57 AM on September 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I believe in social justice. I also believe that the goals of social justice will involve some community members, interest groups, and mass movements lobbying the state to form administrative bodies that prevent further injustices. If you believe that social justice requires the dissolution of the state, then you may be right but I don't know how to do that and I'll need you to explain it to me.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:57 AM on September 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
It's easy to read this and say, "Well, duh, newsflash: black people are people."
But it's really insidious how, when we see someone who likes or does something incomprehensible, we extrapolate: "If that person person can wear/eat/listen to/be attracted to/believe/vote for/look like that, then everything about them must be alien and incomprehensible." We have to keep reminding ourselves that a lot of those extrapolations are unwarranted. Someone who is radically different in one way can still be very much like us in other ways.
I still remember the shock, long after I should have known better, of encountering black people who geeked out on superheroes and science fiction the way I do, even though they didn't look like nerds.
posted by straight at 8:13 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
But it's really insidious how, when we see someone who likes or does something incomprehensible, we extrapolate: "If that person person can wear/eat/listen to/be attracted to/believe/vote for/look like that, then everything about them must be alien and incomprehensible." We have to keep reminding ourselves that a lot of those extrapolations are unwarranted. Someone who is radically different in one way can still be very much like us in other ways.
I still remember the shock, long after I should have known better, of encountering black people who geeked out on superheroes and science fiction the way I do, even though they didn't look like nerds.
posted by straight at 8:13 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you're in a community that is predominantly white and the kids are all listening to country, you don't see them getting into hip-hop.
This may be consistent with your own experiences, but, more broadly, it is not true. Rap is so prevalent in rural communities that it has led to the growing phenomenon of country rap.
posted by maxsparber at 8:35 AM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
This may be consistent with your own experiences, but, more broadly, it is not true. Rap is so prevalent in rural communities that it has led to the growing phenomenon of country rap.
posted by maxsparber at 8:35 AM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
As a consequence, responsibility for these issues is commonly attributed to such causes as a lack of self-regard among African-American males, their purportedly nihilistic and myopic worldview, or their orientation on short-term, narrowly self-interested gain over long-term ambition and social uplift.
And hence pushing any "solution" back on individual choices, rather than structural fixes or any kind of collective action or government program (liberal or conservative).
That's a non-sequitur. Whether or not one thinks there is or is not good sociological evidence for such a thing as a "culture of poverty" it's the antithesis of an argument that the problems of poverty all come down to "individual choices." I mean, no one thinks that a "culture" is simply a matter of "individual choice" ("hey, what culture do you want to be today? Oh, I dunno, I was thinking of being Yanamamo for a few days. You?"). A "culture of poverty" argument is an argument that living in poverty entails certain widespread structural deformations of your worldview and your coping strategies that tend to increase your chances of remaining in poverty. Again, whether or not one believes there is good evidence for that position, it's clear that if you are convinced that this is the case mere exhortations to "made better decisions" will clearly strike you as hopelessly misguided. "Cultural" problems must be addressed structurally and systemically.
posted by yoink at 8:36 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
And hence pushing any "solution" back on individual choices, rather than structural fixes or any kind of collective action or government program (liberal or conservative).
That's a non-sequitur. Whether or not one thinks there is or is not good sociological evidence for such a thing as a "culture of poverty" it's the antithesis of an argument that the problems of poverty all come down to "individual choices." I mean, no one thinks that a "culture" is simply a matter of "individual choice" ("hey, what culture do you want to be today? Oh, I dunno, I was thinking of being Yanamamo for a few days. You?"). A "culture of poverty" argument is an argument that living in poverty entails certain widespread structural deformations of your worldview and your coping strategies that tend to increase your chances of remaining in poverty. Again, whether or not one believes there is good evidence for that position, it's clear that if you are convinced that this is the case mere exhortations to "made better decisions" will clearly strike you as hopelessly misguided. "Cultural" problems must be addressed structurally and systemically.
posted by yoink at 8:36 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
The Braman study quoted is interesting, but doesn't actually prove what the writers want to prove.
Braman reported that not one was “out” as having a member in prison to their entire extended family
Well yes, not even the most ardent "culture of poverty" theorizer thinks every prisoner brags about it to their grandmother. The important variable is not how incarceration is viewed by one's family, but how it's viewed by one's peers, and Braman doesn't seem to have covered that.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 8:38 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Braman reported that not one was “out” as having a member in prison to their entire extended family
Well yes, not even the most ardent "culture of poverty" theorizer thinks every prisoner brags about it to their grandmother. The important variable is not how incarceration is viewed by one's family, but how it's viewed by one's peers, and Braman doesn't seem to have covered that.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 8:38 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
this sentence illustrates exactly the problem with "gun violence is a public health problem" if you believe in social justice.
This is very weird coming from someone who just a couple comments ago admitted they'd never even encountered this approach before, but is suddenly an expert in what is wrong with it.
posted by rtha at 8:39 AM on September 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
This is very weird coming from someone who just a couple comments ago admitted they'd never even encountered this approach before, but is suddenly an expert in what is wrong with it.
posted by rtha at 8:39 AM on September 17, 2014 [10 favorites]
This article does a really good job of dismantling certain myths, but it really errs in saying there is no culture of poverty. Because, at least from my own and my peers' experience in it, there absolutely is - just different from how it's presented here. And there's definitely impacts of race and poverty on culture.
The marriage problem of too few marriageable black men (where marriageable is non-incarcerated, with a clean record, and stably employed at a wage that can support a family), in a world where it is easier for black men to make interracial marriages than it is for black women, does, in fact, have an enormous impact. As someone said above, you can't control for it and then have any meaningful data left.
There is a culture of opposition to birth control - possibly, of course, the remainders of racist sterilization and control attempts on minority populations. But minorities (speaking from my own experience and that of my lady friends) seem less willing to wear condoms, and also less willing to have or support abortions. It may also be related to the idea that in a time when there are fewer achievable aspirations for young black men and women, eternity in the form of continuation of genes, of an impact on a child, is to be desired. For women who know that they are unlikely to be able to achieve a marriage to a marriageable man - or who have dealt with poverty-induced child neglect in their own lives - a child of their own may seem a substitute for love. And because the problem of too few marriageable black men is a real one, young unwed mothers don't get shunned or pushed into marriage, as happens in higher socioeconomic brackets.
The article is right though that marriage promotion programs aimed at the black poor are ridiculous and idiotic. For many black women, the choice to not marry is based on the fact that they are aware that their current partner is simply not ready for a lifetime commitment and wouldn't bring much to the family if they did. It's not a dread of marriage in and of itself.
posted by corb at 9:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
The marriage problem of too few marriageable black men (where marriageable is non-incarcerated, with a clean record, and stably employed at a wage that can support a family), in a world where it is easier for black men to make interracial marriages than it is for black women, does, in fact, have an enormous impact. As someone said above, you can't control for it and then have any meaningful data left.
There is a culture of opposition to birth control - possibly, of course, the remainders of racist sterilization and control attempts on minority populations. But minorities (speaking from my own experience and that of my lady friends) seem less willing to wear condoms, and also less willing to have or support abortions. It may also be related to the idea that in a time when there are fewer achievable aspirations for young black men and women, eternity in the form of continuation of genes, of an impact on a child, is to be desired. For women who know that they are unlikely to be able to achieve a marriage to a marriageable man - or who have dealt with poverty-induced child neglect in their own lives - a child of their own may seem a substitute for love. And because the problem of too few marriageable black men is a real one, young unwed mothers don't get shunned or pushed into marriage, as happens in higher socioeconomic brackets.
The article is right though that marriage promotion programs aimed at the black poor are ridiculous and idiotic. For many black women, the choice to not marry is based on the fact that they are aware that their current partner is simply not ready for a lifetime commitment and wouldn't bring much to the family if they did. It's not a dread of marriage in and of itself.
posted by corb at 9:26 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
corb: But minorities (speaking from my own experience and that of my lady friends) seem less willing to wear condoms
One the one hand, we have your experience and that of your lady friends.
On the other hand, we have statistics.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:42 AM on September 17, 2014 [14 favorites]
One the one hand, we have your experience and that of your lady friends.
On the other hand, we have statistics.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:42 AM on September 17, 2014 [14 favorites]
Public health is pretty far from an apolitical framing. It's in the name, even.
(And as my mother will tell you, distributing WIC checks is a pretty radicalizing experience.)
posted by PMdixon at 9:43 AM on September 17, 2014
(And as my mother will tell you, distributing WIC checks is a pretty radicalizing experience.)
posted by PMdixon at 9:43 AM on September 17, 2014
Public health is pretty far from an apolitical framing. It's in the name, even.
Its certainly not apolitical. But that's really a cogent criticism of approaching gun violence as a public health issue.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:50 AM on September 17, 2014
Its certainly not apolitical. But that's really a cogent criticism of approaching gun violence as a public health issue.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:50 AM on September 17, 2014
So but now who is right? Do I discount what my black peers told me they experienced? Or is it the research?
But there's also a fourth option even after we add straight's third option of it being at least in part a skewed perception of reality.
Even if we accept that criticism for "acting white" happens, that doesn't make it a particularly black thing. It's a way that a particular expression of tall-poppy syndrome, which seems to be common enough in every ethnic group on Earth. This is part of what TFA's authors meant -- some of what we call "the black culture of poverty" doesn't even exist, sure, but also that even the parts that seem to exist are in no way unique to black people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:11 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
But there's also a fourth option even after we add straight's third option of it being at least in part a skewed perception of reality.
Even if we accept that criticism for "acting white" happens, that doesn't make it a particularly black thing. It's a way that a particular expression of tall-poppy syndrome, which seems to be common enough in every ethnic group on Earth. This is part of what TFA's authors meant -- some of what we call "the black culture of poverty" doesn't even exist, sure, but also that even the parts that seem to exist are in no way unique to black people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:11 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, we have statistics.
Are those numbers based on self-reported data? Because that's certainly not problematic to definitive claims at all.
Those numbers could be accurate. On the other hand, they could not be. But just slapping down some statistics doesn't win you all the chips in the anecdotal vs. statistical poker game.
posted by echocollate at 10:14 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Are those numbers based on self-reported data? Because that's certainly not problematic to definitive claims at all.
Those numbers could be accurate. On the other hand, they could not be. But just slapping down some statistics doesn't win you all the chips in the anecdotal vs. statistical poker game.
posted by echocollate at 10:14 AM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
echocollate: Are those numbers based on self-reported data?
How does one go about getting non self-reported data about condom usage? You're putting survey results across wide swathes of population on equal footing with anecdotal (and just as unverifiable) data from a few of one person's friends?
And I didn't say or imply that I "won" a poker hand here -- but my hand is certainly stronger.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:19 AM on September 17, 2014
How does one go about getting non self-reported data about condom usage? You're putting survey results across wide swathes of population on equal footing with anecdotal (and just as unverifiable) data from a few of one person's friends?
And I didn't say or imply that I "won" a poker hand here -- but my hand is certainly stronger.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:19 AM on September 17, 2014
Also, you would have to identify some characteristic of the population groups that would cause them to self-report differently. Absent this, one would expect self-reporting errors to affect all groups equally.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:20 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:20 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe corb's friends told her they self-report differently.
posted by OmieWise at 10:23 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by OmieWise at 10:23 AM on September 17, 2014
On the other hand, we have statistics.
None of those graphs really address Corb's claim. The first two are exclusively about women's use of contraception (I took it, though I'm not sure, that Corb's point was what she and her "lady friends" find in sexual encounters with socioeconomically disadvantaged black males--not what there own practice is), the second is about college students (which, obviously, is a somewhat different group, in socioeconomic terms).
Here, though, is a pretty strong study that casts doubt on Corb's anecdotal findings.
posted by yoink at 10:24 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
None of those graphs really address Corb's claim. The first two are exclusively about women's use of contraception (I took it, though I'm not sure, that Corb's point was what she and her "lady friends" find in sexual encounters with socioeconomically disadvantaged black males--not what there own practice is), the second is about college students (which, obviously, is a somewhat different group, in socioeconomic terms).
Here, though, is a pretty strong study that casts doubt on Corb's anecdotal findings.
posted by yoink at 10:24 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
"How does one go about getting non self-reported data about condom usage?"
Good question. The only way is to ask people if they have seen other people using one, that should work.
posted by marienbad at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2014
Good question. The only way is to ask people if they have seen other people using one, that should work.
posted by marienbad at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2014
Thanks, yoink. I did not find any results that individually refuted corb's claim, and was rather trying to make a case by induction that her anecdata were at best in opposition to actual studies. I should have put more effort into finding better ones, but since literally every page I pulled up showed either no difference or a difference in favor of minorities using condoms more frequently, I picked the first few that showed the differences clearly.
Your link is absolutely more relevant and definitive.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2014
Your link is absolutely more relevant and definitive.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2014
And I'll also add that the results I did cite do undermine the "culture of opposition to birth control" assertion.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2014
posted by tonycpsu at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2014
Personally, I would find study results among women that ask about voluntary, male-initiated condom usage by race, prone to overcoming the self reporting problems - because I think women have fewer reasons to lie about different partners' voluntary sexual activity. Questions that ask if condoms were used does not address who initiated the condom use, whether there was argument, etc.
Because when you have to argue for condom use, it means that the most vulnerable populations may not feel able to argue against it - and you're not reporting accurately people's desires, only their actions when under pressure.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on September 17, 2014
Because when you have to argue for condom use, it means that the most vulnerable populations may not feel able to argue against it - and you're not reporting accurately people's desires, only their actions when under pressure.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on September 17, 2014
Really--one could stop reading when the authors, in the early paragraphs said: "Every component of the culture of poverty narrative is a phantasm, a projection of racial fantasies on to the culture of African Americans, which has for several centuries now served as the screen on which the national unconscious plays out.". It may well be true certain beliefs, held by non blacks and blacks, regarding the culture of poverty are simply untrue or projections of beliefs. But the article jumps around in discussing/comparing poor blacks, blacks and the poor with out clearly differentiating the subsets. It is a polemical piece not a scientific analysis of any particular culture. Every relatively homogenous group has some shared culture--rich white males, the wealthy, the upper class, the white middle class, poor urban blacks, blacks, poor rural whites/blacks, red necks, New Yorkers, The Irish, first generation Mexican immigrants. etc. The point is that the culture is not descriptive of every member and every member does not represent all aspects of the culture. But there is a culture of poverty that is generational--it may not be the culture that some may use to pejoratively describe it but that does not mean there is not a culture. If anyone doubts there is a culture of poverty then one also needs to give up the notion that there is a culture of wealth. I think
posted by rmhsinc at 11:12 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 11:12 AM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I went to high school in Louisiana in the early 90's...
On the other hand, having grown up in Louisiana gifted programs around that same time, myself, I'll also say that, in general, education is not valued in Louisiana. It's pretty clear to me that most students in honors programs had trouble fitting in outside that world. The "acting white phenomenon" assumes that this general lack of fitting in is a special problem of the black community.
You know, kind of like the phenomena of "listening to rap" and "experimenting with alcohol and drugs".
posted by Sara C. at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, having grown up in Louisiana gifted programs around that same time, myself, I'll also say that, in general, education is not valued in Louisiana. It's pretty clear to me that most students in honors programs had trouble fitting in outside that world. The "acting white phenomenon" assumes that this general lack of fitting in is a special problem of the black community.
You know, kind of like the phenomena of "listening to rap" and "experimenting with alcohol and drugs".
posted by Sara C. at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
To me, its important to emphasize that the 'black community' is far from homogenous, and while you may find a family or neighborhood that fits stereotypes x, y, and z, they really can't be used in place of a different group. I have seen some examples of these stereotypes, but I've never seen one that could be uniformly applied to a whole group.
I also realized after reading this that I've used 'the culture of poverty' before in conversation but had no idea I was using it differently than other people. Language can be funny sometimes.
posted by lownote at 11:16 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I also realized after reading this that I've used 'the culture of poverty' before in conversation but had no idea I was using it differently than other people. Language can be funny sometimes.
posted by lownote at 11:16 AM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
How does one go about getting non self-reported data about condom usage?
That's kind of my point.
You're putting survey results across wide swathes of population on equal footing with anecdotal (and just as unverifiable) data from a few of one person's friends?
No, I'm not. I'm saying that any self-reported statistics with a strong social bias factor are inherently problematic. Like I posted originally, they may be accurate, they might not. And they may be accurate enough not to quibble over the margin of error.
I'd love to know with certainty that men of all races and ethnicities are using condoms responsibly in high numbers, especially absent other forms of birth control. That would be fantastic news. I'm not sure how to correct for bias in self-reported statistics, though.
The NSSHB website lists an overview of some findings for the study yoink linked, but access to the supplemental issue containing the papers is no longer available for download.
I guess my big gripe is not that statistics can be misleading or that studies can be gamed or suffer from shitty methodology, though all of these are true. I do, however, object to linking to statistics as conversational trump cards without any useful qualification of the findings.
posted by echocollate at 12:39 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's kind of my point.
You're putting survey results across wide swathes of population on equal footing with anecdotal (and just as unverifiable) data from a few of one person's friends?
No, I'm not. I'm saying that any self-reported statistics with a strong social bias factor are inherently problematic. Like I posted originally, they may be accurate, they might not. And they may be accurate enough not to quibble over the margin of error.
I'd love to know with certainty that men of all races and ethnicities are using condoms responsibly in high numbers, especially absent other forms of birth control. That would be fantastic news. I'm not sure how to correct for bias in self-reported statistics, though.
The NSSHB website lists an overview of some findings for the study yoink linked, but access to the supplemental issue containing the papers is no longer available for download.
I guess my big gripe is not that statistics can be misleading or that studies can be gamed or suffer from shitty methodology, though all of these are true. I do, however, object to linking to statistics as conversational trump cards without any useful qualification of the findings.
posted by echocollate at 12:39 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I do, however, object to linking to statistics as conversational trump cards without any useful qualification of the findings.
Sure. How do you feel about the assertion of self-serving anecdote as conversational trump cards? Because of the two things, which both happened, you seem more concerned about the one that seems the most defensible.
posted by OmieWise at 12:49 PM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Sure. How do you feel about the assertion of self-serving anecdote as conversational trump cards? Because of the two things, which both happened, you seem more concerned about the one that seems the most defensible.
posted by OmieWise at 12:49 PM on September 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
corb: Personally, I would find study results among women that ask about voluntary, male-initiated condom usage by race, prone to overcoming the self reporting problems - because I think women have fewer reasons to lie about different partners' voluntary sexual activity. Questions that ask if condoms were used does not address who initiated the condom use, whether there was argument, etc.
Because when you have to argue for condom use, it means that the most vulnerable populations may not feel able to argue against it - and you're not reporting accurately people's desires, only their actions when under pressure.
Assuming for the sake of argument that your intuition here is correct, it does nothing to undermine the compelling evidence yoink presented that you're wrong about condoms, nor to support your overarching idea that there's some kind of culture of opposition to birth control.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:53 PM on September 17, 2014
Because when you have to argue for condom use, it means that the most vulnerable populations may not feel able to argue against it - and you're not reporting accurately people's desires, only their actions when under pressure.
Assuming for the sake of argument that your intuition here is correct, it does nothing to undermine the compelling evidence yoink presented that you're wrong about condoms, nor to support your overarching idea that there's some kind of culture of opposition to birth control.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:53 PM on September 17, 2014
What is a "culture of criminality" anyway? I'm on board with that being a stupid, loaded way to describe what actually goes on among poor black youth, but that part of the article is really thin, reducing the entire concept of an intersection between criminality and culture to the particularly wacky claim that said young black men take pride in going to jail - and addresses it mostly by citing how the families of the incarcerated react, which isn't even the same issue. Wouldn't it make more sense for a discussion of "culture of criminality" to begin by examining the attitude toward committing criminal acts held by the people who are actually committing them? Certainly you'd want to address the existence of explicitly criminal subcultures i.e. gangs or just semi-organized drug dealers and so-on? Probably that's the intended point - that the existence of outlaw subcultures (which are obviously real) has little to do with the usual values of poor black families. That's important, and of course there have been a lot of intelligent things written about how such subcultures come to be, which is pretty clearly something that happens in poor communities across racial lines and can be seen as a response to... etc. etc but none of that is touched here.
When people go on about about a culture of criminality they are imagining these kids. You can't defeat the idea without addressing who they are, where they come from, and what their relationship to the surrounding community and culture actually is.
posted by atoxyl at 12:54 PM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
When people go on about about a culture of criminality they are imagining these kids. You can't defeat the idea without addressing who they are, where they come from, and what their relationship to the surrounding community and culture actually is.
posted by atoxyl at 12:54 PM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
OmieWise: Sure. How do you feel about the assertion of self-serving anecdote as conversational trump cards? Because of the two things, which both happened, you seem more concerned about the one that seems the most defensible.
Quite. I've already acknowledged that I was making a case by induction, not asserting that it was a slam dunk case that the data I linked to was unassailable. It's most certainly stronger than a couple of anecdotes, and yoink's study is even stronger, though it also relies on self-reporting, so I guess we should just throw our hands up in the air until we can have a true study that has access to hidden bedroom cameras.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:55 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Quite. I've already acknowledged that I was making a case by induction, not asserting that it was a slam dunk case that the data I linked to was unassailable. It's most certainly stronger than a couple of anecdotes, and yoink's study is even stronger, though it also relies on self-reporting, so I guess we should just throw our hands up in the air until we can have a true study that has access to hidden bedroom cameras.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:55 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Sure. How do you feel about the assertion of self-serving anecdote as conversational trump cards? Because of the two things, which both happened, you seem more concerned about the one that seems the most defensible.
I think if you go back and read corb's original post you'll see that she 1) explicitly recognizes her own experience (and that of the relatively small number of her lady friends) as anecdotal and 2) she isn't trying to trump anyone else in the thread by doing so.
I also think if you go back and read tonycpsu's original reply you'll see that's pretty much exactly what he's doing.
So in answer to you, I'm not privileging one over the other. I'm calling one out as a lame way to establish the authoritative upper hand in the discussion by pointing out the problematic aspects of the approach. And also because I think it's a dick move.
We can keep quibbling if you want, but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive.
posted by echocollate at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think if you go back and read corb's original post you'll see that she 1) explicitly recognizes her own experience (and that of the relatively small number of her lady friends) as anecdotal and 2) she isn't trying to trump anyone else in the thread by doing so.
I also think if you go back and read tonycpsu's original reply you'll see that's pretty much exactly what he's doing.
So in answer to you, I'm not privileging one over the other. I'm calling one out as a lame way to establish the authoritative upper hand in the discussion by pointing out the problematic aspects of the approach. And also because I think it's a dick move.
We can keep quibbling if you want, but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive.
posted by echocollate at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's most certainly stronger than a couple of anecdotes, and yoink's study is even stronger, though it also relies on self-reporting, so I guess we should just throw our hands up in the air until we can have a true study that has access to hidden bedroom cameras.
HIDDEN XXX CAMS FOR SCIENCE
Sexy, sexy science.
posted by echocollate at 1:16 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
HIDDEN XXX CAMS FOR SCIENCE
Sexy, sexy science.
posted by echocollate at 1:16 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Let it be said that I am nobly willing to support this science. You know, it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
posted by corb at 1:17 PM on September 17, 2014
posted by corb at 1:17 PM on September 17, 2014
echocollate: I also think if you go back and read tonycpsu's original reply you'll see that's pretty much exactly what he's doing.
No. Please stop telling me what I'm doing.
"On the one hand... on the other hand..." doesn't mean "QED, bitches." It means "this user has anecdotes, I have actual data. You decide." I did not say and did not imply that my data was dispositive, and it quite clearly was not, but it was actual data, compared to anecdotes. Did I feel my case was stronger? Certainly. Did I feel it was incontrovertible? No.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:21 PM on September 17, 2014
No. Please stop telling me what I'm doing.
"On the one hand... on the other hand..." doesn't mean "QED, bitches." It means "this user has anecdotes, I have actual data. You decide." I did not say and did not imply that my data was dispositive, and it quite clearly was not, but it was actual data, compared to anecdotes. Did I feel my case was stronger? Certainly. Did I feel it was incontrovertible? No.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:21 PM on September 17, 2014
We can keep quibbling if you want, but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive.
I agree that it's unlikely to be productive.
posted by OmieWise at 1:27 PM on September 17, 2014
I agree that it's unlikely to be productive.
posted by OmieWise at 1:27 PM on September 17, 2014
tony, fair enough. I'm willing to take you at your word, but that's not how the post reads to me, and I have absolutely nothing against you and no other reason to assume the worst of your intentions outside of how the post was phrased.
posted by echocollate at 1:28 PM on September 17, 2014
posted by echocollate at 1:28 PM on September 17, 2014
their orientation on short-term, narrowly self-interested gain over long-term... social uplift.
What, poor black people are running Wall Street, now?
This is obviously not something that is unique to poor black people. How many other attributes of the "culture of poverty" is this true of?
Some other features of black culture, such as saggy pants, have no causal connection to poverty. Or criminality, for that matter. They're a fashion that some people don't approve of. There have been other examples in history of some segments of a culture disapproving of fashions favored by other segments. I suspect the real problem is that some people don't like the kind of people who are wearing the saggy pants. If they didn't wear saggy pants, they'd find some other reason to disapprove of them.
i'm thinking about a jillion conversations i've had with moderates & liberals who like the idea of a better world but have a sneaking suspicioun that people who don't live in the kinds of neighborhoods that have wine bars might just be kind of Different.
The obvious solution to this is wine bars in every neighborhood.
posted by Anne Neville at 1:36 PM on September 17, 2014
What, poor black people are running Wall Street, now?
This is obviously not something that is unique to poor black people. How many other attributes of the "culture of poverty" is this true of?
Some other features of black culture, such as saggy pants, have no causal connection to poverty. Or criminality, for that matter. They're a fashion that some people don't approve of. There have been other examples in history of some segments of a culture disapproving of fashions favored by other segments. I suspect the real problem is that some people don't like the kind of people who are wearing the saggy pants. If they didn't wear saggy pants, they'd find some other reason to disapprove of them.
i'm thinking about a jillion conversations i've had with moderates & liberals who like the idea of a better world but have a sneaking suspicioun that people who don't live in the kinds of neighborhoods that have wine bars might just be kind of Different.
The obvious solution to this is wine bars in every neighborhood.
posted by Anne Neville at 1:36 PM on September 17, 2014
I suspect the real problem is that some people don't like the kind of people who are wearing the saggy pants.
You know, I will admit that I don't like saggy pants. But the reason I don't like them has nothing to do with the people who inhabit them, far less the race. I don't like them because I don't like seeing other people's underwear on the public street. Especially dingy underwear. It bothers me. It feels like a violation of the boundary between public and private. It doesn't bother me when, say, there's a football jersey or something over the pants such that no underwear can be seen. But when there is visible underwear, I find it bothersome.
It's possible this is just a cultural difference. I'm not sure what it can have arisen from. But it's not just as simple as "Everyone who doesn't like saggy pants hates black people."
posted by corb at 1:47 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
You know, I will admit that I don't like saggy pants. But the reason I don't like them has nothing to do with the people who inhabit them, far less the race. I don't like them because I don't like seeing other people's underwear on the public street. Especially dingy underwear. It bothers me. It feels like a violation of the boundary between public and private. It doesn't bother me when, say, there's a football jersey or something over the pants such that no underwear can be seen. But when there is visible underwear, I find it bothersome.
It's possible this is just a cultural difference. I'm not sure what it can have arisen from. But it's not just as simple as "Everyone who doesn't like saggy pants hates black people."
posted by corb at 1:47 PM on September 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
From a certain light, this is what the article is about, the plausible deniability of racism. It isn't that one dislikes African Americans, it's that one disapproves of odious fashion choices, or supports the death penalty, or supports stand your ground, or thinks that some minority men belong to a culture that devalues contraception. Each separate stance, like the assertion of a culture of poverty, is another way to deny what they all have in common.
posted by OmieWise at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Not everyone who dislikes saggy pants is racist, just like not everybody who dislikes bra straps showing under tops or dresses is a misogynist. But no one can seriously think that, if all young black men stopped wearing saggy pants tomorrow, they would all be able to get jobs and would not be harassed by police.
Another claim you sometimes hear is that some kinds of music that poor black people like are too violent or too degrading toward women. Hardly unique to rap or hip-hop, and again not the cause of the problems faced by the poor black community. And again, not everybody who doesn't care for rap or hip-hop is racist.
As for the claim that poor black men don't like birth control- there is an obvious reason why any poor person might not want to use birth control. Until recently in the US, any form of birth control cost money to get. Poor people, pretty much by definition, don't have much money. Even the forms of birth control that don't require a copayment now do require access to health care, which is something else poor people are less likely to have.
posted by Anne Neville at 2:10 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Another claim you sometimes hear is that some kinds of music that poor black people like are too violent or too degrading toward women. Hardly unique to rap or hip-hop, and again not the cause of the problems faced by the poor black community. And again, not everybody who doesn't care for rap or hip-hop is racist.
As for the claim that poor black men don't like birth control- there is an obvious reason why any poor person might not want to use birth control. Until recently in the US, any form of birth control cost money to get. Poor people, pretty much by definition, don't have much money. Even the forms of birth control that don't require a copayment now do require access to health care, which is something else poor people are less likely to have.
posted by Anne Neville at 2:10 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Re saggy pants, I can't wait for the day when they are passe and old out of touch folks look at youths on the street with their pants up to their armpits and think "Ugh, dude, PULL YOUR PANTS DOWN, you look like an idiot..."
I mean seriously saggy pants are the biggest red herring ever. Do they look dumb? Sure. Do they need to be legislated against? No. Neither should they be grounds to turn someone away from a place of business.
Besides, aren't they kind of on the way out now anyway? The new look among urban youths seems to be the Ivy League dandy thing.
posted by Sara C. at 2:17 PM on September 17, 2014
I mean seriously saggy pants are the biggest red herring ever. Do they look dumb? Sure. Do they need to be legislated against? No. Neither should they be grounds to turn someone away from a place of business.
Besides, aren't they kind of on the way out now anyway? The new look among urban youths seems to be the Ivy League dandy thing.
posted by Sara C. at 2:17 PM on September 17, 2014
Saggy pants get far too much criticism in the African-American community, too.
I was in a Black-owned coffee shop in Baltimore this year that had a prominent sign claiming that sagged pants were a secret code for prisoners to signify to each other that they'd be interested in gay sex, so if you sag your pants you're unknowingly acting gay.
Black elites telling other African-Americans how to dress (and using homophobia to do it) points up the real problem here: that many many of these tropes are more complicated than the racism analysis would have it. They're shot through with class issues and social liberal/conservatism issues, and so the battle lines aren't really drawn the way we're tempted to think.
I readily acknowledge that a white person with a criticism of saggy pants is probably evincing an implicitly racist attitude. But it can't also be the case that conservative African-Americans, many of whom are not business owners, are also merely participating in white racism in their denunciations. It's got to be more complicated than that, and the analysis has to grant them agency.
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I was in a Black-owned coffee shop in Baltimore this year that had a prominent sign claiming that sagged pants were a secret code for prisoners to signify to each other that they'd be interested in gay sex, so if you sag your pants you're unknowingly acting gay.
Black elites telling other African-Americans how to dress (and using homophobia to do it) points up the real problem here: that many many of these tropes are more complicated than the racism analysis would have it. They're shot through with class issues and social liberal/conservatism issues, and so the battle lines aren't really drawn the way we're tempted to think.
I readily acknowledge that a white person with a criticism of saggy pants is probably evincing an implicitly racist attitude. But it can't also be the case that conservative African-Americans, many of whom are not business owners, are also merely participating in white racism in their denunciations. It's got to be more complicated than that, and the analysis has to grant them agency.
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
I readily acknowledge that a white person with a criticism of saggy pants is probably evincing an implicitly racist attitude.
Really? My son is about as white as you can get short of albinism and I wish he'd pull his fucking pants up. He isn't into to hip-hop music or fashion (he's more the AP/Warped Tour type) he just wears his pants halfway down his ass and I wish he'd stop. It looks crappy in general, worse with skinny jeans. A bad look is a bad look.
posted by MikeMc at 4:21 PM on September 17, 2014
Really? My son is about as white as you can get short of albinism and I wish he'd pull his fucking pants up. He isn't into to hip-hop music or fashion (he's more the AP/Warped Tour type) he just wears his pants halfway down his ass and I wish he'd stop. It looks crappy in general, worse with skinny jeans. A bad look is a bad look.
posted by MikeMc at 4:21 PM on September 17, 2014
Rather than culture of poverty, I'd say it's just culture, period. Humans are not perfectly rational beings. Culture is deeply ingrained in everyone, and it makes us do stupid things. Culture gives our lives meaning, but it can also be self-destructive. This is a universal. But when we see poor black people making normal, not always rational decisions, we shout "culture of poverty!" and everyone gives advice and speculations of all the rational strategies *they* would implement if they were in their place: "If I were poor, I wouldn't do x and y. Why didn't they think of simply doing a, b, and c and that would get them straight out of poverty! Obviously it's because they want to stay poor!".
Essentially it's denying that poor black people are allowed to have a culture at all. They must be automatons who must sacrifice every social, i.e. human, i.e. cultural, aspect of their lives that isn't strict cost-benefit analysis. Anything less is "culture of poverty".
posted by adso at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Essentially it's denying that poor black people are allowed to have a culture at all. They must be automatons who must sacrifice every social, i.e. human, i.e. cultural, aspect of their lives that isn't strict cost-benefit analysis. Anything less is "culture of poverty".
posted by adso at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
Addendum: Also, it is implying that by contrast, there is a "culture of wealth", whether interpreted as protestant work ethic or respect for education, etc. In fact, I feel like much of the culture of wealthy white people is basically like those rare exotic animals that have evolved all kinds of bizarre and impractical adaptations because they've lived for thousands of years in isolated ecosystems devoid of predators. They would simply go extinct if they were not intensely sheltered from the outside world.
So many of the "strategies of success" of the rich are only effective precisely because the rich have wealth to begin with. Take the accusation that the "culture of poverty" doesn't value education. While education, as in love of knowledge, is a universal value everyone should aspire to, the system of higher education really only rewards those who already have the economic and social capital to activate the benefits of having higher degrees. Meanwhile, people who are poor and do strive to get the same credentials end up drowning in student debt and no better off or even worse off than their less educated peers. As someone else stated upthread, why participate in a game that is already rigged against you in the first place? And then people blame your bad attitude for not playing in the first place.
posted by adso at 5:31 PM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
So many of the "strategies of success" of the rich are only effective precisely because the rich have wealth to begin with. Take the accusation that the "culture of poverty" doesn't value education. While education, as in love of knowledge, is a universal value everyone should aspire to, the system of higher education really only rewards those who already have the economic and social capital to activate the benefits of having higher degrees. Meanwhile, people who are poor and do strive to get the same credentials end up drowning in student debt and no better off or even worse off than their less educated peers. As someone else stated upthread, why participate in a game that is already rigged against you in the first place? And then people blame your bad attitude for not playing in the first place.
posted by adso at 5:31 PM on September 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
adso--I just do not see the inherent logic of your last posts--of course there is culture of privilege/wealth and I would point out it certainly is not limited to white people--try Asia, Japan, Mideast and less so Africa--bit give the latter the time and it will occur. The wealthy are largely wealthy because of luck and history and the poor are poor largely because of luck and history. The rich are most likely rich because of luck, history and the culture in which they were raised. And the poor are largely poor because of of luck, history and the culture in which they were raised. For me it makes no more sense to demonize the wealthy than it does to demonize the poor. With good fortune come the responsibilities of humility, discipline, stewardship and generosity. And with misfortune comes the responsibilities of discipline, humility, stewardship and generosity. What one has/hasn't is not about oneself but the cosmic role of dice and a responsibility to use that position with wisdom and sort out what can be controlled and what can not.
posted by rmhsinc at 9:39 AM on September 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 9:39 AM on September 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
rmhsinc - I'm not really sure what your comment is addressing or critiquing in my posts? Neither of my posts make any speculations as to why people are rich or poor in the first place.
I was making reference to white people because the article is about how the concept of "culture of poverty" is used in American politics, not in Asia or elsewhere. And in the United States, the elites are overwhelmingly white and the phrase "culture of poverty" is used as a euphemism for black people in poverty. The assumption is that black people have a "culture of poverty" and that they should be blamed for not pulling themselves out of poverty. Of course there are non-white elites in other regions of the world, but I'm not sure what this has to do with this topic?
posted by adso at 10:05 PM on September 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
I was making reference to white people because the article is about how the concept of "culture of poverty" is used in American politics, not in Asia or elsewhere. And in the United States, the elites are overwhelmingly white and the phrase "culture of poverty" is used as a euphemism for black people in poverty. The assumption is that black people have a "culture of poverty" and that they should be blamed for not pulling themselves out of poverty. Of course there are non-white elites in other regions of the world, but I'm not sure what this has to do with this topic?
posted by adso at 10:05 PM on September 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
So I just heard someone on a local public radio show racialize spanking. Man, people will really throw any negative thing into the "black culture" pot, won't they.
posted by Sara C. at 10:14 PM on September 18, 2014
posted by Sara C. at 10:14 PM on September 18, 2014
So I just heard someone on a local public radio show racialize spanking. Man, people will really throw any negative thing into the "black culture" pot, won't they.
On the front of the Times website currently: Too many black parents believe beatings make kids better people.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:17 PM on September 18, 2014
On the front of the Times website currently: Too many black parents believe beatings make kids better people.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:17 PM on September 18, 2014
So I just heard someone on a local public radio show racialize spanking. Man, people will really throw any negative thing into the "black culture" pot, won't they.
I keep thinking of the scene in Spike Lee's Get On The Bus, when characters are recalling childhood whoopings. After tales of "I couldn't sit for a week", "I was staggering all month", Roger Guenveur Smith's story ends with "She lectured me for like 3 hours." Everyone else looks around bemused, and another guy chimes in "Oh right, your mom was white."
So there's a pretty powerful perception of difference, including (maybe especially) in the African-American community. But research suggests that it's not as big as many people (including many people of color) think---about 10%.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 8:34 AM on September 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking of the scene in Spike Lee's Get On The Bus, when characters are recalling childhood whoopings. After tales of "I couldn't sit for a week", "I was staggering all month", Roger Guenveur Smith's story ends with "She lectured me for like 3 hours." Everyone else looks around bemused, and another guy chimes in "Oh right, your mom was white."
So there's a pretty powerful perception of difference, including (maybe especially) in the African-American community. But research suggests that it's not as big as many people (including many people of color) think---about 10%.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 8:34 AM on September 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
ADSO, my apologies, I carried over some feelings and thoughts from prior posts that were not yours. There is a consistent theme in many posts that poor/black/minorities are trapped/victimized by their culture or a culture that is imposed on them but somehow other groups (middle class/wealthy/white/Europeans/Asians) move outside the realm of culture constrictions/restraints/impositions. But that is a a complicated discussion for another time.
posted by rmhsinc at 10:31 AM on September 19, 2014
posted by rmhsinc at 10:31 AM on September 19, 2014
So I just heard someone on a local public radio show racialize spanking. Man, people will really throw any negative thing into the "black culture" pot, won't they.
There's better stuff on that, from more sympathetic (and interesting) viewpoints:
There's better stuff on that, from more sympathetic (and interesting) viewpoints:
...a young white child began to climb on the seats and hang from the bars of the train. His mother never moved to restrain him. But I began to see the very familiar, strained looks of disdain and dismay on the countenances of the mostly black passengers. They exchanged eye contact with one another, dispositions tight with annoyance at the audacity of this white child, but mostly at the refusal of his mother to act as a disciplinarian. I, too, was appalled. I thought, if that were my child, I would snatch him down and tell him to sit his little behind in a seat immediately. My professor took the opportunity to teach: “Do you see how this child feels the prerogative to roam freely in this train, unhindered by rules or regulations or propriety?posted by corb at 10:45 AM on September 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
“Yes,” I nodded. “What kinds of messages do you think are being communicated to him right now about how he should move through the world?”
Since I'm not sure if it's okay to use the edit window to swap out quotes, here is another one.
Stakes are high because parenting black children in a culture of white supremacy forces us to place too high a price on making sure our children are disciplined and well-behaved. I know that I personally place an extremely high value on children being respectful, well-behaved and submissive to authority figures. I’m fairly sure this isn’t a good thing.posted by corb at 10:48 AM on September 19, 2014
rmhsinc - No worries! Yes, I totally agree with you on that. There's always an assumption that some groups (usually white, wealthy or middle class in industrialized nations) are somehow "outside" or beyond the constraints of culture.
posted by adso at 11:38 AM on September 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by adso at 11:38 AM on September 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
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posted by graymouser at 4:32 AM on September 17, 2014 [6 favorites]