Not All Voices For Men
February 6, 2015 10:43 AM Subscribe
BuzzFeed profiles Paul Elam, founder of notorious MRA website A Voice For Men: "Elam calls AVFM “the largest men’s human rights group of its kind anywhere,” though it does few of the things human rights groups typically do. It provides no services, offers no legal aid, and litigates no cases. It does not regularly lobby lawmakers, advise candidates, produce public policy proposals or original research."
We Hunted The Mammoth, a blog dedicated to tracking and mocking the wider MRA movement cited in the BuzzFeed article, provides additional links and context about Paul Elam's modus operandi and history.
We Hunted The Mammoth, a blog dedicated to tracking and mocking the wider MRA movement cited in the BuzzFeed article, provides additional links and context about Paul Elam's modus operandi and history.
Relevant, from BuzzFeed's own Tumblr about their (ahem) agenda.
posted by Phire at 10:48 AM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Phire at 10:48 AM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
"I have the right to have diarrhea if I want, dammit."
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:59 AM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:59 AM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
These people are flat out not grown ups.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on February 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on February 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
When asked how this money is spent, Elam told BuzzFeed News that A Voice for Men’s finances were “none of your fucking business.”
Tells you most of what you need to know about Paul Elam, I think. The MRM is, at its core, a hustle profiting off of the disappointment, rage, and confusion of poorly educated middle-aged men.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:00 AM on February 6, 2015 [60 favorites]
Tells you most of what you need to know about Paul Elam, I think. The MRM is, at its core, a hustle profiting off of the disappointment, rage, and confusion of poorly educated middle-aged men.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:00 AM on February 6, 2015 [60 favorites]
Relevant, from BuzzFeed's own Tumblr about their (ahem) agenda.
This also-relevant bit has been going around the Twitters this week.
posted by rhizome at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
This also-relevant bit has been going around the Twitters this week.
posted by rhizome at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Man, I am just dying to run into a guy wearing one of those "Meninist" shirts so I can give him a little lecture on the dangers of Communism.
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
“Everybody who came in is a volunteer,” said John Hembling, the site’s former editor who has since left A Voice for Men and has dedicated himself more to writing and his own activist group — named Community Organized Compassion and Kindness — which he said will soon offer a domestic violence hotline for men. “For a short period of time I was getting paid a fairly token amount as an AVFM employee, but as far as I know nobody else is getting paid simply because we’re really too small for that to be viable at this point.”christ lol
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:04 AM on February 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
The MRM is, at its core, a hustle profiting off of the disappointment, rage, and confusion of poorly educated middle-aged men.
Yeah, it appears to basically be a touchy-feely Tea Party, replacing politics/economics with gender.
Also, on the "profitable hustle" angle, note "deadbeat dad."
posted by rhizome at 11:05 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, it appears to basically be a touchy-feely Tea Party, replacing politics/economics with gender.
Also, on the "profitable hustle" angle, note "deadbeat dad."
posted by rhizome at 11:05 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
It provides no services, offers no legal aid, and litigates no cases. It does not regularly lobby lawmakers, advise candidates, produce public policy proposals or original research.
It can play the fuck out of Call of Duty, tho.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:06 AM on February 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
It can play the fuck out of Call of Duty, tho.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:06 AM on February 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
I thought this book I read
last year "Confessions of a pickup artist chaser: long interviews with hideous men" Was one of the best examinations of the culture that evolved into mra culture I have read. Very detailed and descriptive about the subculture in a way this article could not match. MRA &PUA culture are very obviously linked, if you don't understand PUA's and think they just vanished you won't understand the toxicity of the mra's really.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 11:07 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
last year "Confessions of a pickup artist chaser: long interviews with hideous men" Was one of the best examinations of the culture that evolved into mra culture I have read. Very detailed and descriptive about the subculture in a way this article could not match. MRA &PUA culture are very obviously linked, if you don't understand PUA's and think they just vanished you won't understand the toxicity of the mra's really.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 11:07 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Sigh. Perhaps we can get them some Feminazis to have playdates with.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
This guy's name backwards is Male Luap, which sounds like some kind of amazing Australian parrot.
posted by selfnoise at 11:09 AM on February 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 11:09 AM on February 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
#NotAll13YrOlds
posted by Fizz at 11:10 AM on February 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 11:10 AM on February 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's truly inspirational that a boy who suffered from chronic diarrhea could grow up to be so full of shit.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:12 AM on February 6, 2015 [125 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 11:12 AM on February 6, 2015 [125 favorites]
has dedicated himself more to writing and his own activist group — named Community Organized Compassion and Kindness
Talk about low-hanging fruit.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:14 AM on February 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
Talk about low-hanging fruit.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:14 AM on February 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
Must be something going around the internets:
Emmet Rensin, Vox: The internet is full of men who hate feminism. Here's what they're like in person.
Emmet Rensin, Vox: The internet is full of men who hate feminism. Here's what they're like in person.
As it happens I'd spent several nights in August with one of her antagonists. He claims he's not the kind to send explicit threats, and he wasn't involved in Gamergate. He's a just man who takes a dim view of Sarkeesian, he says, and hasn't been afraid to tweet her about it. He doesn't think much of feminism in general, or at least of what he says feminism became once the voting and the jobs and the abortion rights were sorted and the word became a dog-whistle for "self-pity and sexism toward men." His name is Max — although it isn't, of course — and he is a Men's Rights Activist. I found him because I wanted to know what these men were like, not on Reddit or on Twitter or on any other forum where they are actively engaged in their cause, but in ordinary life — relaxed, after having a few, and without a keyboard to take it out on.Mariah Blake, Mother Jones: Mad Men: Inside the Men's Rights Movement—and the Army of Misogynists and Trolls It Spawned
"I'll make you a bet, hundred dollars," Max tells me the first night we hang out. "If both of us stood up on this table right now and started yelling what we think about feminism, somebody might tell you to shut the fuck up. But they would lynch me."
The following year, he and his wife, who was the primary breadwinner, divorced. Farrell says he still remembers the conversation that led to their split: He asked her who she would marry if he were to die—somebody like him or the type of man she worked with? "She said, 'I feel I'd have a lot more in common with another IBM executive,'" he recalls. "And I took a big, deep breath."posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:14 AM on February 6, 2015 [23 favorites]
A few years later Ursula did marry a fellow IBM executive, while Farrell, who would not remarry for two decades, came out swinging against feminism. By 1988 he had collected his evolving views into his book Why Men Are the Way They Are, depicting a world where women—particularly female executives—wield vast influence. Even those women who are less successful have "enormous sexual leverage over men" and "can use the power to get external rewards," he wrote. Men, on the other hand, have been reduced to "success objects," judged solely by their status and earning potential.
After the book's debut, Gloria Steinem quit returning his phone calls.
If you're not reading the article yet, do so. This guy is a real piece of work.
However, knowing what I know about the business of the Internet, I can see how someone worn down by years of bitterness, irresponsibility, and poor financial decisions could latch onto something like the MRA world at just the right time and milk it to oblivion. He should probably stop giving interviews if he knows what's good for him, but his history indicates this is unlikely.
posted by rhizome at 11:15 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
However, knowing what I know about the business of the Internet, I can see how someone worn down by years of bitterness, irresponsibility, and poor financial decisions could latch onto something like the MRA world at just the right time and milk it to oblivion. He should probably stop giving interviews if he knows what's good for him, but his history indicates this is unlikely.
posted by rhizome at 11:15 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
For Elam, that revelation came at age 13, when his mother tried to force him to take his diarrhea medicine.I knew it! Just like Limbaugh: a giant squalling baby in a dirty diaper no one in their right mind would be willing to change.
Elam’s brothers held him down on the kitchen floor while his mother screamed and hit him with a wooden spoon until a concerned neighbor knocked on the door. “I felt like I was engaged in the battle of my life,” Elam said. “I was a rebel from that moment on … I’m still that 13-year-old kid on the floor that won’t take the medicine.”
posted by jamjam at 11:15 AM on February 6, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think it's good to see what he says and what his actions are. They speak for themselves.
posted by Braeburn at 11:16 AM on February 6, 2015
posted by Braeburn at 11:16 AM on February 6, 2015
Emmet Rensin, Vox: The internet is full of men who hate feminism. Here's what they're like in person.
Was just about to post this link. (Elam shows up in it for a bit.)
posted by asterix at 11:16 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Was just about to post this link. (Elam shows up in it for a bit.)
posted by asterix at 11:16 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
As much as I'd like to infantile them, they are managing to put together a very grown up hate group. Maybe they are just obnoxious little boys at heart, but they are now that with the powers and privileges of men, and hate groups have an awful history of acting on that hate.
And they really are awful. I was on a friend's Facebook page recently where she was discussing her recent miscarriage, and a man popped up and told her she was hot and they should go on a date, and then, when she objected, told her she should be complimented. He then blocked her.
But he didn't block me, so I went to his page. Not only was it full of all sorts of MRA stuff, but he had also started to get into Holocaust denial stuff. It's creeps all the way down.
posted by maxsparber at 11:17 AM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
And they really are awful. I was on a friend's Facebook page recently where she was discussing her recent miscarriage, and a man popped up and told her she was hot and they should go on a date, and then, when she objected, told her she should be complimented. He then blocked her.
But he didn't block me, so I went to his page. Not only was it full of all sorts of MRA stuff, but he had also started to get into Holocaust denial stuff. It's creeps all the way down.
posted by maxsparber at 11:17 AM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
I read that Vox article today, and I felt as if I'll have to gird myself; people who have held onto to power and privileges for so long will not let them go without a fight. I can only think we're only at the start of the real struggles.
posted by droplet at 11:17 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by droplet at 11:17 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
The history you decide to tell is truly the only history that matters. Otherwise, people might realize you're just a selfish, sexist asshole who uses people and lies about it to get ahead.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:18 AM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:18 AM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not only was it full of all sorts of MRA stuff, but he had also started to get into Holocaust denial stuff.
Why am I so utterly, utterly, unsurprised?
posted by aramaic at 11:19 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Why am I so utterly, utterly, unsurprised?
posted by aramaic at 11:19 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
"He doesn't think much of feminism in general, or at least of what he says feminism became once the voting and the jobs and the abortion rights were sorted"
Wait, what? When the fuck did this happen?
(okay, the voting stuff is cleared for most women in the US, certainly not globally of course).
posted by el io at 11:19 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Wait, what? When the fuck did this happen?
(okay, the voting stuff is cleared for most women in the US, certainly not globally of course).
posted by el io at 11:19 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Ok, after reading that Buzzfeed article I am ready to upgrade this guy from sleazeball to probably dangerous psychopath. Yeeeeesh.
posted by selfnoise at 11:20 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by selfnoise at 11:20 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
The following year, he and his wife, who was the primary breadwinner, divorced. Farrell says he still remembers the conversation that led to their split: He asked her who she would marry if he were to die—somebody like him or the type of man she worked with? "She said, 'I feel I'd have a lot more in common with another IBM executive,'" he recalls. "And I took a big, deep breath."
This is purely anecdotal, but I have gotten to know a few hardcore misogynists in person in the past (don't ask why), and they all had something in common -- they had had women divorce them for what they perceived to be unfair reasons, and apparently held that against all women everywhere forever, all the while conveniently ignoring their own contribution toward the divorce.
posted by Librarypt at 11:20 AM on February 6, 2015 [33 favorites]
This is purely anecdotal, but I have gotten to know a few hardcore misogynists in person in the past (don't ask why), and they all had something in common -- they had had women divorce them for what they perceived to be unfair reasons, and apparently held that against all women everywhere forever, all the while conveniently ignoring their own contribution toward the divorce.
posted by Librarypt at 11:20 AM on February 6, 2015 [33 favorites]
It occurred to me recently that the real problem these MRA folks and other similar ilk have is that they are unrelenting control freaks. They make a mental model of how the world is supposed to work and freak out when reality doesn't match exactly what's in their heads. They frequently talk about "Logic" to support their ideas, but as frequently happens in the real world, pure reason fails where the rubber meets the road. Instead of accepting that perhaps there are some caveats or faulty assumptions in their logical models, they decry that the whole world is wrong and the model of reality in their head is the one true way.
posted by j03 at 11:21 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by j03 at 11:21 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
These evil fucks.
I wish feminism really was as powerful as they fear. I wish there really was an all encompassing misandrist conspiracy afoot, active on every continent, hours away from springing their plan to ruin dude fun forever. Haha, you fools! Accepting a wage of seventy two cents on the dollar was part of the ruse! The relentless attacks on reproductive freedom and women's bodily autonomy were part of the plan - half the house GOP are feminazi sleeper agents and it's too late to stop them! It's too late for all fuckboys and pissbabies; run for the hills!
I want to read news reports of Fem Force Seven kicking in doors and confiscating fedoras. I want that to run right next to a thinkpiece called "Man Tearz: Could There Be More?" I want state legislatures to debate jailing PUAs or just sending them to labor camps. No more Bibles in motels! Only Bell Hooks! I welcome our feminist overlords and wish Citizen Elam all the best as he flees justice and goes underground.
(He'd better move his ass though - I heard Fem Force Five took that contract and, hoo buddy. You don't want them catching you at all.)
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:24 AM on February 6, 2015 [100 favorites]
I wish feminism really was as powerful as they fear. I wish there really was an all encompassing misandrist conspiracy afoot, active on every continent, hours away from springing their plan to ruin dude fun forever. Haha, you fools! Accepting a wage of seventy two cents on the dollar was part of the ruse! The relentless attacks on reproductive freedom and women's bodily autonomy were part of the plan - half the house GOP are feminazi sleeper agents and it's too late to stop them! It's too late for all fuckboys and pissbabies; run for the hills!
I want to read news reports of Fem Force Seven kicking in doors and confiscating fedoras. I want that to run right next to a thinkpiece called "Man Tearz: Could There Be More?" I want state legislatures to debate jailing PUAs or just sending them to labor camps. No more Bibles in motels! Only Bell Hooks! I welcome our feminist overlords and wish Citizen Elam all the best as he flees justice and goes underground.
(He'd better move his ass though - I heard Fem Force Five took that contract and, hoo buddy. You don't want them catching you at all.)
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:24 AM on February 6, 2015 [100 favorites]
The frothing MRA types disgust me and I find it all too easy to heap a torrent of abuse on them when our paths have the misfortune of crossing.
They are very sad examples of humanity, and I really do pity them. They are in desperate need of psychological counselling.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:24 AM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
They are very sad examples of humanity, and I really do pity them. They are in desperate need of psychological counselling.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:24 AM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I read that Vox article today, and I felt as if I'll have to gird myself; people who have held onto to power and privileges for so long will not let them go without a fight.
The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless. And there is something about being middle aged and irrelevant that I think is hard for some men to get past.
My brush with the MRA came in the mid 90s during the beginning of my brutal custody battle. Family Court is a meat grinder, and for a while (70s/80s/90s), especially when it came to access to kids, women had an upper hand and were preferentially preferred as custodial parents.
And it is some level of bullshit, too.
But to a man, the men I met through the MRAs were all responsible for their predicament. They'd fail to pay child support, or they'd send threatening letters or otherwise behave unwisely. And, as bad as Family Court is - it is that much harder if you misbehave. To hear them talk about it, though - they were angels and the courts and the Feminists were robbing them of their precious bodily fluids.
Wackadoodles and whiners. That's my assessment of the MRA movement. Buncha fucking crybabies.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:27 AM on February 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless. And there is something about being middle aged and irrelevant that I think is hard for some men to get past.
My brush with the MRA came in the mid 90s during the beginning of my brutal custody battle. Family Court is a meat grinder, and for a while (70s/80s/90s), especially when it came to access to kids, women had an upper hand and were preferentially preferred as custodial parents.
And it is some level of bullshit, too.
But to a man, the men I met through the MRAs were all responsible for their predicament. They'd fail to pay child support, or they'd send threatening letters or otherwise behave unwisely. And, as bad as Family Court is - it is that much harder if you misbehave. To hear them talk about it, though - they were angels and the courts and the Feminists were robbing them of their precious bodily fluids.
Wackadoodles and whiners. That's my assessment of the MRA movement. Buncha fucking crybabies.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:27 AM on February 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
"Meninist"
What a speed stick.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:28 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
What a speed stick.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:28 AM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
If I had even a quarter of the superpowers I'm alleged to have - as a woman, as a lesbian, as a person of color - the world would be a really different place.
posted by rtha at 11:29 AM on February 6, 2015 [84 favorites]
posted by rtha at 11:29 AM on February 6, 2015 [84 favorites]
I can see how someone worn down by years of bitterness, irresponsibility, and poor financial decisions could latch onto something like the MRA world at just the right time and milk it to oblivion
I suspect that the list of things that can be blamed on bitter, angry people is almost endless. That burning sense of entitlement and willingness to bypass any ethical or moral limitations lets them rise to the very top, especially in broken systems.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:30 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
I suspect that the list of things that can be blamed on bitter, angry people is almost endless. That burning sense of entitlement and willingness to bypass any ethical or moral limitations lets them rise to the very top, especially in broken systems.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:30 AM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Don't forget feminism is a CIA-funded social engineering front project!
At least according to Alex Jones.
posted by Dreidl at 11:34 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
At least according to Alex Jones.
posted by Dreidl at 11:34 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
MRA dudes remind me of the kind of brat who would complain to his parent "How come there's a Mother's Day and a Father's Day but no such thing as a Kids' Day? Why don't I get my own special day??"
And then the parent would patiently explain to him that every day is goddamn Kids' Day. Now go away and quit bothering me.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:36 AM on February 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
And then the parent would patiently explain to him that every day is goddamn Kids' Day. Now go away and quit bothering me.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:36 AM on February 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
The MRA movement is a natural response to the Straw Feminist menace.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:37 AM on February 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Ham Snadwich at 11:37 AM on February 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Even more apty, there IS a Children's Day, but the kid's too busy throwing a tantrum to notice.
posted by Phire at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Phire at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's a definite thread of being angry that you're expected to be an adult and not a sheltered nine year old.
posted by The Whelk at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
When Elam was 17, his mother grabbed a photo of his high school crush out of his hands without asking him first. When Elam took it back from her, his father belted him. Elam’s analysis of the incident was that his father’s life was solely about serving his mother — “and nothing else.”
“I followed in many ways in my father’s footsteps,” Elam said. “If I was attracted to a girl … it was my job to please her, and to be and do anything to please her. My instant reaction to women was to please and serve without question.”
Wow. It's like he got really, really close to almost understanding something important about himself, but then took a sharp left and veered far, far away from self-reflection or insight, never to return.
posted by clockzero at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
“I followed in many ways in my father’s footsteps,” Elam said. “If I was attracted to a girl … it was my job to please her, and to be and do anything to please her. My instant reaction to women was to please and serve without question.”
Wow. It's like he got really, really close to almost understanding something important about himself, but then took a sharp left and veered far, far away from self-reflection or insight, never to return.
posted by clockzero at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
There's a definite thread of being angry that you're expected to be an adult and not a sheltered nine year old.
And don't get me wrong - I am often TOTALLY PISSED OFF at that. But get it together and stop ruining other people's lives with that anger.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:40 AM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
And don't get me wrong - I am often TOTALLY PISSED OFF at that. But get it together and stop ruining other people's lives with that anger.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:40 AM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm always struck by the weird paradox of privilege -- the it is simultaneously invisible to its holder and yet precisely what they expect. These are men who are overflowing with privilege, and yet feel utterly disempowered. And yet what they want is exactly the privilege that they already have. They want women's charges of rape to be disregarded -- almost always the case. They want to be in a world in which men are dominant and women subservient -- the world we are in.
I mean, the only straw they have is that men aren't taken as seriously when raped as women -- debatable, and I would argue they are taken just as unseriously as women are, but for different reasons -- and that men are disadvantaged when it comes to divorce -- again debatable, and I would argue that men and women are equally disadvantaged, just in different ways.
I mean, this guy actually refused to take his wife's rape seriously and successfully used the fact to abandon his children. And now he doesn't want to talk about it. If that's not privilege, there is no privilege, and yet he both makes use of it and denies its existence.
posted by maxsparber at 11:40 AM on February 6, 2015 [73 favorites]
I mean, the only straw they have is that men aren't taken as seriously when raped as women -- debatable, and I would argue they are taken just as unseriously as women are, but for different reasons -- and that men are disadvantaged when it comes to divorce -- again debatable, and I would argue that men and women are equally disadvantaged, just in different ways.
I mean, this guy actually refused to take his wife's rape seriously and successfully used the fact to abandon his children. And now he doesn't want to talk about it. If that's not privilege, there is no privilege, and yet he both makes use of it and denies its existence.
posted by maxsparber at 11:40 AM on February 6, 2015 [73 favorites]
Yeah seriously, I have ACTUALLY KNOWN some of these men. They are TERRIFYING. One guy I knew who had no friends and I felt bad for for slowly began revealing that he thinks age of consent laws are wrong (child abuse is ok as long as they're into it) that he wished he lived in Japan so he could grop women up on the bus, and that he thinks women should be grateful for being raped because men bothered to give them attention.
Our relationship ended with me finally ceasing trying to understand as is so unfortunately part of my nature and telling him he is a horrible human being- at which point he cried.
And sadly he was the first among many that I have met and I think the fact that I don't have a good "Fuck you get away from me" reflex and I come across (and am) understanding about human failure and flaws in many ways, has meant that shitty asswipes like this love talking to me until I suddenly realize I'm hanging out with dangerous human filth and run away.
When I meet new guys I wonder at what point they will tell me how they abused their siblings or wish they could or deep down they are ephebophiles and think everyone is and this is natural and healthy or any of the other vile nasty shit men have rambled on about to me, or how they should be able to "seduce" whoever they want however unwanted to sex is as long as they can manage to get a yes (or a lack of no?) and of course how men should have paper abortion rights because they shouldn't have to deal with some bullshit kid that might result from that because that WOULDN'T BE FAIR! But of course they ALSO should damn well have visitation rights or full custody if they want from the moment the child is born because that child is fucking THEIRS and their right even if they coerced the shit out of someone who didn't even want to be having sex with them let alone unprotected sex.
In fact one that I had an argument with at my work sexually assaulted me later-- reminding me that arguing with men when they say horrible things about women is a dangerous thing to do.
These people terrify me. Like truly terrify me, because they represent real men in the world who have done real horrible things to me and they are supporting and stroking each others egos that this is how to treat women and that shit festers and grows. I also wonder if coming up with strategies to either reach THEM or to counter their messages so well that anyone on the fence would see through the bullshit might help prevent some of these behaviors in the world because these men really do take out their harmful beliefs in real behaviors on people around them when they can.
posted by xarnop at 11:41 AM on February 6, 2015 [58 favorites]
Our relationship ended with me finally ceasing trying to understand as is so unfortunately part of my nature and telling him he is a horrible human being- at which point he cried.
And sadly he was the first among many that I have met and I think the fact that I don't have a good "Fuck you get away from me" reflex and I come across (and am) understanding about human failure and flaws in many ways, has meant that shitty asswipes like this love talking to me until I suddenly realize I'm hanging out with dangerous human filth and run away.
When I meet new guys I wonder at what point they will tell me how they abused their siblings or wish they could or deep down they are ephebophiles and think everyone is and this is natural and healthy or any of the other vile nasty shit men have rambled on about to me, or how they should be able to "seduce" whoever they want however unwanted to sex is as long as they can manage to get a yes (or a lack of no?) and of course how men should have paper abortion rights because they shouldn't have to deal with some bullshit kid that might result from that because that WOULDN'T BE FAIR! But of course they ALSO should damn well have visitation rights or full custody if they want from the moment the child is born because that child is fucking THEIRS and their right even if they coerced the shit out of someone who didn't even want to be having sex with them let alone unprotected sex.
In fact one that I had an argument with at my work sexually assaulted me later-- reminding me that arguing with men when they say horrible things about women is a dangerous thing to do.
These people terrify me. Like truly terrify me, because they represent real men in the world who have done real horrible things to me and they are supporting and stroking each others egos that this is how to treat women and that shit festers and grows. I also wonder if coming up with strategies to either reach THEM or to counter their messages so well that anyone on the fence would see through the bullshit might help prevent some of these behaviors in the world because these men really do take out their harmful beliefs in real behaviors on people around them when they can.
posted by xarnop at 11:41 AM on February 6, 2015 [58 favorites]
I just can't get over the fact that his organization is literally called "A Voice For Men," without a trace of irony. It's a deliberate choice of words intended to give a waffling onlooker the impression that men qua men are actively being silenced, disenfranchised, and marginalized (only by mean old women, of course, not by other men). But there's no "there" there, or at least nothing that AVFM would ever lift a finger to trouble themselves with.
Like, dude, basically every single history book written before the 20th century, like 90% of them that have been written since, and the fact that American women have only been able to VOTE for less than 100 years isn't enough "voice" for you? Oh, wait: The only time you actually want to use your voice is when you want to complain about your sad, embittered lot in life and threaten to beat or kill women. Gotcha.
Definitely interested to see what AVFM's finances look like, in any case. I'm sure it's just like a cash version of wingnut welfare, gathered from the sycophants and funneled down one pathetic misogynist. But at least he's pulling a paycheck from the pockets of other misogynists instead of leeching off of women like he'd been all busy doing for the previous couple of decades.
posted by divined by radio at 11:42 AM on February 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
Like, dude, basically every single history book written before the 20th century, like 90% of them that have been written since, and the fact that American women have only been able to VOTE for less than 100 years isn't enough "voice" for you? Oh, wait: The only time you actually want to use your voice is when you want to complain about your sad, embittered lot in life and threaten to beat or kill women. Gotcha.
Definitely interested to see what AVFM's finances look like, in any case. I'm sure it's just like a cash version of wingnut welfare, gathered from the sycophants and funneled down one pathetic misogynist. But at least he's pulling a paycheck from the pockets of other misogynists instead of leeching off of women like he'd been all busy doing for the previous couple of decades.
posted by divined by radio at 11:42 AM on February 6, 2015 [22 favorites]
They make a mental model of how the world is supposed to work and freak out when reality doesn't match exactly what's in their heads.
As I understand it, that's a textbook definition of narcissism.
posted by rhizome at 11:46 AM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
As I understand it, that's a textbook definition of narcissism.
posted by rhizome at 11:46 AM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, he's a master of doublespeak, from the title "A Voice for Men," as if men had no voice with which to shout over every woman, eveywhere, all the time, to the notion of this group as "the largest men’s human rights group of its kind anywhere," reclaiming their status as humans from the wicked women of the world.
Pogo_Fuzzybutt: The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless.
Ahaha, in their own minds, yes. They're not masters of Fortune 500 companies, and women don't fawn over them when they say such kind things as "hey, you have a nice ass." But they're still white men, who don't have the same institutional hurdles to pass as minorities and women.
Yes, there are women and minorities with more power than them, but anyone who has time to join a Men's Rights Group has power enough to have leisure time. I don't imagine many truly powerless men have time to stalk and torment women online.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Pogo_Fuzzybutt: The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless.
Ahaha, in their own minds, yes. They're not masters of Fortune 500 companies, and women don't fawn over them when they say such kind things as "hey, you have a nice ass." But they're still white men, who don't have the same institutional hurdles to pass as minorities and women.
Yes, there are women and minorities with more power than them, but anyone who has time to join a Men's Rights Group has power enough to have leisure time. I don't imagine many truly powerless men have time to stalk and torment women online.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is an example of one downside of the internet.
Back before the Internet's prevalence, I recall in legal circles down here that there were reasonable people discussing the need to look at reform of family courts because so many of the standard assumptions and presumptions of how to deal with marriages and how to best take care of children were based on antiquated gender roles. There were discussions about whether the system was fair to mothers, fathers, non-traditional families, etc. It was just viewed as a very antiquated, arbitrary system. Some of those reforms still are being pursued today.
But then you get guys like this jackass who latches on to a reasonable discussion and appropriates part of it for his asinine worldview. Then he develops an insular hate machine (an internet "community") that magnifies and makes single interest groups even more extreme and intractable. And after being given a platform with the internet to spout nonsense for the whole world to see, and allowing opposing groups to magnify their hatred and mockery of his worldview, the whole thing becomes a farce. And now a topic of discussion that once could be reasonably discussed has become appropriated and charged such that it is associated with his jackassery. So now discussion of a once-reasonable topic is left unsaid for fear that someone might think you agree with this festering boil on society's grundle. Screw this tool and his misguided and hate-fueled worldview.
I blame the internet. Life was better when we didn't know what fringe losers thought.
posted by dios at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
Back before the Internet's prevalence, I recall in legal circles down here that there were reasonable people discussing the need to look at reform of family courts because so many of the standard assumptions and presumptions of how to deal with marriages and how to best take care of children were based on antiquated gender roles. There were discussions about whether the system was fair to mothers, fathers, non-traditional families, etc. It was just viewed as a very antiquated, arbitrary system. Some of those reforms still are being pursued today.
But then you get guys like this jackass who latches on to a reasonable discussion and appropriates part of it for his asinine worldview. Then he develops an insular hate machine (an internet "community") that magnifies and makes single interest groups even more extreme and intractable. And after being given a platform with the internet to spout nonsense for the whole world to see, and allowing opposing groups to magnify their hatred and mockery of his worldview, the whole thing becomes a farce. And now a topic of discussion that once could be reasonably discussed has become appropriated and charged such that it is associated with his jackassery. So now discussion of a once-reasonable topic is left unsaid for fear that someone might think you agree with this festering boil on society's grundle. Screw this tool and his misguided and hate-fueled worldview.
I blame the internet. Life was better when we didn't know what fringe losers thought.
posted by dios at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
Fun fact: some men in power were scared of women gaining the upper hand 100 years ago, as seen in The Turn of the Century Posters that Warned against the Horrors of a World with Women’s Rights.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:50 AM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:50 AM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Because of men like this, I have had some deep inner struggles with recognizing the humanity of men my own age. It's gotten better as I got older, because I am now able to identify men of my cohort with the gentle, decent men in my family -- my father, grandfather, uncles -- of whom there are many.
What I do is try to think of them as injured children. Elam, for one, was clearly abused as a child. When I read -- as I have read -- about some guy who thinks that girl babies should have their voiceboxes removed, or that girl children shouldn't be saved if they are drowning, I make myself think: this poor man was brutalized. Who is responsible for what he is? Did his mother beat him, or fail to save him from beatings? How did his parents fail him? Because, somehow, they did. If I think of them as wounded animals, snapping and snarling so that no one can get close enough to free them from a steel trap, I can bear to live on this planet another day.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:52 AM on February 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
What I do is try to think of them as injured children. Elam, for one, was clearly abused as a child. When I read -- as I have read -- about some guy who thinks that girl babies should have their voiceboxes removed, or that girl children shouldn't be saved if they are drowning, I make myself think: this poor man was brutalized. Who is responsible for what he is? Did his mother beat him, or fail to save him from beatings? How did his parents fail him? Because, somehow, they did. If I think of them as wounded animals, snapping and snarling so that no one can get close enough to free them from a steel trap, I can bear to live on this planet another day.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:52 AM on February 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless.
That's just it, though; that's precisely why they're the most vocal hardcore misogynists, who are all "waah waah but I am oppressed and women have more rights now, more men commit suicide and go to prison and I have to pay child support to my cheating bitch of an ex-wife and those kids probably aren't mine anyway and I have to fight and die if there's a war! it's not fair at all!" It's because the change in social dynamics that's given women more power means men aren't automatically in a social position that's superior to that of women, and it's men who are more socio-economically marginalised who feel more effects from that--it's the same reason that hardcore racists tend to be lower-class whites; because until the social changes of the civil rights movement and so on, even the poorest white was socially superior to any black person, hence all the butthurt crying about how "society is racist against white people because affirmative action and welfare queens and black people all voted for Obama, how is that not racist?"
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:52 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's just it, though; that's precisely why they're the most vocal hardcore misogynists, who are all "waah waah but I am oppressed and women have more rights now, more men commit suicide and go to prison and I have to pay child support to my cheating bitch of an ex-wife and those kids probably aren't mine anyway and I have to fight and die if there's a war! it's not fair at all!" It's because the change in social dynamics that's given women more power means men aren't automatically in a social position that's superior to that of women, and it's men who are more socio-economically marginalised who feel more effects from that--it's the same reason that hardcore racists tend to be lower-class whites; because until the social changes of the civil rights movement and so on, even the poorest white was socially superior to any black person, hence all the butthurt crying about how "society is racist against white people because affirmative action and welfare queens and black people all voted for Obama, how is that not racist?"
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:52 AM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
I blame the internet. Life was better when we didn't know what fringe losers thought. couldn't torment women and feminists from a safe distance and behind the shield of anonymity, virtually stalking them with such ease and lack of repercussion.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:53 AM on February 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:53 AM on February 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
filthy light thief, your point is well-taken about the danger of shadows and sunlight being the best disinfectant. But I wonder if perhaps the internet's capacity to allow such people a soapbox to spread their hate spawns/develops more of these such people (or radicalizes them) more than sunlight cleanses them. In other words, while it feels good to us to put the spotlight on them and marginalize their worldview publicly in hopes it will be rejected by others, I wonder if X > Y where X is the number of people who are brought into this worldview through exposure and Y is the number of people who might have rejected such thoughts through exposure and education about what is wrong with them. Either way, I hope this jackass goes away.
posted by dios at 12:07 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by dios at 12:07 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I know someone who was personally targeted by Elam a few years ago, and the obsessiveness with which he and his cohort went after her and tore through her Twitter/Tumblr history bordered on fetishism. It seriously fucked with her life for a few months.
I pitched writing about the incident to an org I was occasionally blogging for at the time, and wanted to tie it to a concurrent MRA campaign at Carleton University in Ottawa to "equalize" the student human rights charter and invalidate safe spaces. I even had a few drafts finished and revised, but my editor wanted to stay away from what they called student politics and I was honestly terrified of being targeted myself if I only focused on AVFM, so I let the piece drop. Not my proudest moment.
posted by Phire at 12:09 PM on February 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I pitched writing about the incident to an org I was occasionally blogging for at the time, and wanted to tie it to a concurrent MRA campaign at Carleton University in Ottawa to "equalize" the student human rights charter and invalidate safe spaces. I even had a few drafts finished and revised, but my editor wanted to stay away from what they called student politics and I was honestly terrified of being targeted myself if I only focused on AVFM, so I let the piece drop. Not my proudest moment.
posted by Phire at 12:09 PM on February 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
his own activist group — named Community Organized Compassion and Kindness
Wait... His new group is literally called COCK?
posted by elmer benson at 12:15 PM on February 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Wait... His new group is literally called COCK?
posted by elmer benson at 12:15 PM on February 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Lawyers, Guns and Money mocks a MRA dude's preference for Fireball as noted in a recent Vox profile.
posted by Gelatin at 12:18 PM on February 6, 2015
posted by Gelatin at 12:18 PM on February 6, 2015
I don't think you should assume all--or even a lot--of these guys had terrible childhoods, or experienced some kind of terrible suffering that made them what they are. Abusive assholes are just as likely to be people who've had an easy or average life and have simply never attempted to understand the point of view of anyone different from themselves.
There is a choice you can make, at certain points of your life, to admit you were wrong about some core beliefs, or that you can't control everything, or that other people matter; in short, the choice to grow up, become a mature human being, accept responsibility for your life as well as accepting a certain degree of powerlessness that we all face.
You can refuse to do that. You can instead cling to the belief that, above all, you are smart and good and always right and deserve everything you want. You can stay in your room or walk around nursing your sense of being cheated, and there will always be examples to fuel it, and villains who have cheated you. Who they are changes; it only matters that they didn't give you what you wanted, no matter how impossible or vague or unfair what you wanted was.
This group of people have fastened on women as the villains, but others pick people of color, or the gays, or liberals, or their ungrateful children, or whoever. I don't feel pity for them, because they are so full of self-pity there isn't any room, and because they hurt other people as well as themselves.
posted by emjaybee at 12:19 PM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
There is a choice you can make, at certain points of your life, to admit you were wrong about some core beliefs, or that you can't control everything, or that other people matter; in short, the choice to grow up, become a mature human being, accept responsibility for your life as well as accepting a certain degree of powerlessness that we all face.
You can refuse to do that. You can instead cling to the belief that, above all, you are smart and good and always right and deserve everything you want. You can stay in your room or walk around nursing your sense of being cheated, and there will always be examples to fuel it, and villains who have cheated you. Who they are changes; it only matters that they didn't give you what you wanted, no matter how impossible or vague or unfair what you wanted was.
This group of people have fastened on women as the villains, but others pick people of color, or the gays, or liberals, or their ungrateful children, or whoever. I don't feel pity for them, because they are so full of self-pity there isn't any room, and because they hurt other people as well as themselves.
posted by emjaybee at 12:19 PM on February 6, 2015 [36 favorites]
elmer benson: Wait... His new group is literally called COCK?
I've heard that they were inspired by Frank Mackey (Tom Cruise) from Magnolia.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:24 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard that they were inspired by Frank Mackey (Tom Cruise) from Magnolia.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:24 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
But they're still white men, who don't have the same institutional hurdles to pass as minorities and women.
Oh certainly - they are very much privileged in many ways. But...
This is something I've been kicking around in my head, but I'm watching many of the kids I went to high school with seem to struggle with this. The idea is that when you're a young person (man, for this comment), the world exists for you. For example - pretty much everything is marketed to that coveted 18-30 demographic. At some point, though, you age out of that - and going to clubbing and whatnot goes from being a thing you can do to a thing you very much cannot do.
So aside from whatever little fiefdoms you have any control over, you are basically irrelevant to society. The music on the radio stops being your music, the tv shows stop being your shows, and the stuff that does get marketed to you is boring old man shit, metamucial and life insurance. And so on. You get a very real sense that you don't matter, and that the world exists for the young - with their gay marriages and equality - or long hair and bellbottoms - what have you.
As I say, I've observed men I know seem to struggle with this. And I sort of wonder, given my understanding of the demographics of the MRA movement, how much of that sense of loss is driving the paranoia and weirdness.
Anyway, I'm sure others have written more and better on it - but in my comment upthread, that's the sort of powerlessness that I was talking about.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:25 PM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
Oh certainly - they are very much privileged in many ways. But...
This is something I've been kicking around in my head, but I'm watching many of the kids I went to high school with seem to struggle with this. The idea is that when you're a young person (man, for this comment), the world exists for you. For example - pretty much everything is marketed to that coveted 18-30 demographic. At some point, though, you age out of that - and going to clubbing and whatnot goes from being a thing you can do to a thing you very much cannot do.
So aside from whatever little fiefdoms you have any control over, you are basically irrelevant to society. The music on the radio stops being your music, the tv shows stop being your shows, and the stuff that does get marketed to you is boring old man shit, metamucial and life insurance. And so on. You get a very real sense that you don't matter, and that the world exists for the young - with their gay marriages and equality - or long hair and bellbottoms - what have you.
As I say, I've observed men I know seem to struggle with this. And I sort of wonder, given my understanding of the demographics of the MRA movement, how much of that sense of loss is driving the paranoia and weirdness.
Anyway, I'm sure others have written more and better on it - but in my comment upthread, that's the sort of powerlessness that I was talking about.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:25 PM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
Yeah, so this guy is a piece of shit, both in his personal life and in his gender politics.
What's troubling me a little though, is this: my reading was that this was a pretty open hit piece, exposing the details of his personal life and digging up people from his past and present who talk about his ugly actions. How is that different, exactly, from when anti-feminists dig up the personal details of feminist women's lives and (attempt to) air their (alleged) dirty laundry? It rarely leads to anything of merit (and is often thinly-veiled stalking, besides) but: this is a celebrated tactic of gamergate, MRA, and other scum. So why is it okay when one side does it but not the other? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm just honestly exploring this little discomfort with a piece that otherwise makes me feel a giddy sense of schadenfreude.
posted by naju at 12:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
What's troubling me a little though, is this: my reading was that this was a pretty open hit piece, exposing the details of his personal life and digging up people from his past and present who talk about his ugly actions. How is that different, exactly, from when anti-feminists dig up the personal details of feminist women's lives and (attempt to) air their (alleged) dirty laundry? It rarely leads to anything of merit (and is often thinly-veiled stalking, besides) but: this is a celebrated tactic of gamergate, MRA, and other scum. So why is it okay when one side does it but not the other? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm just honestly exploring this little discomfort with a piece that otherwise makes me feel a giddy sense of schadenfreude.
posted by naju at 12:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wait... His new group is literally called COCK?
Yes. Can't beat that, eh?
posted by octobersurprise at 12:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes. Can't beat that, eh?
posted by octobersurprise at 12:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tumblr keeps coming up with these guys, and I think there actually is a grain of something to that (note I didn't say a grain of truth, but a grain of something). Tumblr does indeed seem to be a magnet for the kind of people I think of as "professionally offended" - no statement is too mild, no opinion is too nice, to escape someone getting into a lather and launching into a screed about how the sociopolitics behind what that person said is just plain wrongity wrong mcwrong. Tumblr's kind of like the place where one person can post a picture of a kids' blue mitten lying on the ground and talk about "some little boy has one cold hand," and then have 128 comments from people angrily asking them why they assumed it was a boy's mitten, was it just because it was blue? Huh?
And frankly, I think that kind of attitude can be a bit much too.
The mistake that these guys make, though, is in thinking that that kind of mindset is the mainstream in feminism - and part of that, I fear, may be because of so many women who have fallen into the "I'm not a feminist, but..." trap because the word "feminist" has gotten a bad name. These guys don't know any other kind of feminist but the professionally-offended types on Tumblr.
Of course, someone snarking at you on Tumblr is really minor in terms of causing you injury. Which is why I'm also wondering whether their words are more a show of bluster and puffery covering over the fact that they're really cowardly - words are scary to them. Being yelled at on the Internet reminds them of being yelled at by the school bully. They're finally old enough and big enough to fight back, so they go overkill on the professionally-offended types and everything they stand for.
So what's someone like me to do?
Well, for one, taking back the word "feminism" so it has a more faceted definition again. The fact that these guys attach a bad definition to the word is not my problem. The rest of the world will decide, and I'm confident that mine is the definition they'll decide is right.
This may be a long game, and I may not see much change in my lifetime, but I suspect that this is the right move for me and others at this point.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:29 PM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
And frankly, I think that kind of attitude can be a bit much too.
The mistake that these guys make, though, is in thinking that that kind of mindset is the mainstream in feminism - and part of that, I fear, may be because of so many women who have fallen into the "I'm not a feminist, but..." trap because the word "feminist" has gotten a bad name. These guys don't know any other kind of feminist but the professionally-offended types on Tumblr.
Of course, someone snarking at you on Tumblr is really minor in terms of causing you injury. Which is why I'm also wondering whether their words are more a show of bluster and puffery covering over the fact that they're really cowardly - words are scary to them. Being yelled at on the Internet reminds them of being yelled at by the school bully. They're finally old enough and big enough to fight back, so they go overkill on the professionally-offended types and everything they stand for.
So what's someone like me to do?
Well, for one, taking back the word "feminism" so it has a more faceted definition again. The fact that these guys attach a bad definition to the word is not my problem. The rest of the world will decide, and I'm confident that mine is the definition they'll decide is right.
This may be a long game, and I may not see much change in my lifetime, but I suspect that this is the right move for me and others at this point.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:29 PM on February 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
The thing is, though, is that these men are often powerless.
It's their powerlessness that enables them to say things that people with something to lose don't. The people with power sublimate this stuff into unspoken preferences and the like.
As KRS-One said, "Real bad boys move in silence."
posted by rhizome at 12:30 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's their powerlessness that enables them to say things that people with something to lose don't. The people with power sublimate this stuff into unspoken preferences and the like.
As KRS-One said, "Real bad boys move in silence."
posted by rhizome at 12:30 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
But EmpressCallipygos, these people are smearing Tumblr posts everywhere so that people who do not independently investigate topics think "since this is all I see about feminism, this obviously is what it is" without thinking about how self-reinforcing stereotypes can be. I still don't know why I regularly browse the Imgur front page when it's constantly pulling this shit, and I have yet to see anything about the constant harassment and threats female feminist speakers get.
posted by halifix at 12:36 PM on February 6, 2015
posted by halifix at 12:36 PM on February 6, 2015
Sorry, Halifix, I'm not sure I follow you. Can you rephrase that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on February 6, 2015
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on February 6, 2015
I have had personal experience with this dude, and all I can say is that he is the scum of the earth. Seriously.
posted by SkylitDrawl at 12:40 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 12:40 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
The fact that these guys attach a bad definition to the word is not my problem. The rest of the world will decide, and I'm confident that mine is the definition they'll decide is right.
I don't think it's necessary to talk down other feminists, though, and say their feminism isn't the "right" one. Even if these jerks were right about tumblr feminism or whatever, their reaction would still be terrible and wrong.
posted by dialetheia at 12:59 PM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
I don't think it's necessary to talk down other feminists, though, and say their feminism isn't the "right" one. Even if these jerks were right about tumblr feminism or whatever, their reaction would still be terrible and wrong.
posted by dialetheia at 12:59 PM on February 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
my reading was that this was a pretty open hit piece, exposing the details of his personal life and digging up people from his past and present who talk about his ugly actions. How is that different, exactly, from when anti-feminists dig up the personal details of feminist women's lives
This piece is taking a public speaker and contrasting what he evangelizes about topics like child custody against his actual personal behaviors regarding child custody to try to show his hypocrisy. They also interviewed him as well and allowed him to respond to the accusations.
This is not doxxing.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:01 PM on February 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
This piece is taking a public speaker and contrasting what he evangelizes about topics like child custody against his actual personal behaviors regarding child custody to try to show his hypocrisy. They also interviewed him as well and allowed him to respond to the accusations.
This is not doxxing.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:01 PM on February 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
I don't think it's necessary to talk down other feminists, though, and say their feminism isn't the "right" one. Even if these jerks were right about tumblr feminism or whatever, their reaction would still be terrible and wrong.
that's a fair cop; my apologies.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:02 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
that's a fair cop; my apologies.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:02 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
It makes sense that many of these MRAs are relatively powerless within their own lives. Many people with despicable beliefs have many other problems in their lives. There is a weirdly pervasive myth that suffering makes people better: this is very much not always the case.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:07 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:07 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the morality is more that suffering leads to truth, which is not necessarily the same as goodness.
posted by rhizome at 1:12 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:12 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
What you constantly see on a lot of popular user-content sites that also have user-voting mechanisms is that a bias forms amongst the material that floats to the "Most Popular" page. There is a bias in the content people submit, bias in the comments about that content, and bias in how people favorite or upvote. I've never seen any detailed description of abortion-limiting legislation, the problems inherent in corporate culture, and other topics that people should really care about on there. What I do see are a bunch of images of Tumblr arguments where someone is egregious is misusing feminist arguments, and then the takedown. A complex topic might rarely become popular, but they are the exception. There are a lot of posts about male rape victims, men falsely accused of rape (I think I've seen 100 of these, and one mention of the rate of false rape accusations), hypocritical women, etc. A few weeks back, there was a deluge of mocking posts about being triggered by mayonnaise. This has resulted in the opinion that is constantly repeated there how extremists have taken over feminism, because obviously Tumblr is representative of the legal arguments and movements supporting feminism, everyone. No one took up my offer once to discuss this in private messages.
It's also amusing to see, for example, the sudden increase in negative votes on political channels when the speaker speaks against the opinion of its popular internet demographic. For example, I'll list the details of all the YT vids that I clicked off the first page results of searching "Colbert Report":
President Obama Delivers the Decree: 755k views, 11.3k up, 263 down
Hillary Clinton: 249k views, 1875 up, 303 down
#CancelColbert: 911k views, 8166 up, 183 down
Bill O'Reilly (on O'Reilly's show): 2.51m views, 7298 up, 562 down
Anita Sarkeesian:699k views, 8032 up, 22.5k down
So, in usual videos, 0.9-1.5% of viewers vote on videos. Bill is closer to .313%, but it's not Colbert's show. Anita suddenly gets 4.37% of viewership voting. So 1% of the viewership can be relied upon to like his videos, but all of a sudden, a bunch of dislikes appear. You'd see the same thing happen if you look at the Colbert Nation viewer votes.
Also relevant is Mark Ame's article that the man of twists and turns linked in the Chait FPP.
posted by halifix at 1:15 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's also amusing to see, for example, the sudden increase in negative votes on political channels when the speaker speaks against the opinion of its popular internet demographic. For example, I'll list the details of all the YT vids that I clicked off the first page results of searching "Colbert Report":
President Obama Delivers the Decree: 755k views, 11.3k up, 263 down
Hillary Clinton: 249k views, 1875 up, 303 down
#CancelColbert: 911k views, 8166 up, 183 down
Bill O'Reilly (on O'Reilly's show): 2.51m views, 7298 up, 562 down
Anita Sarkeesian:699k views, 8032 up, 22.5k down
So, in usual videos, 0.9-1.5% of viewers vote on videos. Bill is closer to .313%, but it's not Colbert's show. Anita suddenly gets 4.37% of viewership voting. So 1% of the viewership can be relied upon to like his videos, but all of a sudden, a bunch of dislikes appear. You'd see the same thing happen if you look at the Colbert Nation viewer votes.
Also relevant is Mark Ame's article that the man of twists and turns linked in the Chait FPP.
posted by halifix at 1:15 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
How is that different, exactly, from when anti-feminists dig up the personal details of feminist women's lives and (attempt to) air their (alleged) dirty laundry?
Rudimentary (at least) journalistic bounds, for one. The subject's address or phone number isn't being provided, pizza's, Mormons, or SWAT teams aren't being sent, the names of peripheral subjects are changed, a right of reply is offered, even if the reply is "none of your fucking business." It might be a hit piece, but it's a hit piece that seems to recognize some boundaries. Would a similarly written NYT piece on some controversial, possibly fraudulent, opinion maker—whatever the opinion—raise any eyebrows?
I think there is a line between journalism, even tabloid journalism, and harassment.
Here I'm reminded of Fletch's line in Fletch's Moxie "In this business, there is no such thing as a wrong question. There are only wrong answers." To which you could add, there are definitely wrong ways to use those answers.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on February 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
Rudimentary (at least) journalistic bounds, for one. The subject's address or phone number isn't being provided, pizza's, Mormons, or SWAT teams aren't being sent, the names of peripheral subjects are changed, a right of reply is offered, even if the reply is "none of your fucking business." It might be a hit piece, but it's a hit piece that seems to recognize some boundaries. Would a similarly written NYT piece on some controversial, possibly fraudulent, opinion maker—whatever the opinion—raise any eyebrows?
I think there is a line between journalism, even tabloid journalism, and harassment.
Here I'm reminded of Fletch's line in Fletch's Moxie "In this business, there is no such thing as a wrong question. There are only wrong answers." To which you could add, there are definitely wrong ways to use those answers.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on February 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
It seems like these guys would be a lot happier if they spent far less time and energy being total douchebags.
posted by freakazoid at 1:17 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 1:17 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm not saying this is doxxing or harrassment. But I'm uncomfortable nevertheless. Let me put it this way: I now know an uncomfortable amount about Paul Elam's failed first marriage and failed relationship with his daughter, which I'm using as proof of his hypocrisy w/r/t his movement and politics. I also know an uncomfortable amount about Zoe Quinn's failed relationship with her ex-boyfriend, which many gamergaters are using as proof of her hypocrisy w/r/t her ethics and politics. I can't delineate these two things in a way that makes me entirely satisfied.
posted by naju at 1:22 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 1:22 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suspect that the list of things that can be blamed on bitter, angry people is almost endless. That burning sense of entitlement and willingness to bypass any ethical or moral limitations lets them rise to the very top, especially in broken systems.
Bingo. I think it's no coincidence that most of the MRA movement is focused on the States, with some offshoots in those countries too keen to emulate its social model. You have four decades of deliberate grinding down of social safety nets, a winner takes all society and a public culture that derides anybody who gets into problems as losers or criminals and it's no wonder some people, lied to their whole lives that their gender made them special, go for what's basically 21st century fascism.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:23 PM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Bingo. I think it's no coincidence that most of the MRA movement is focused on the States, with some offshoots in those countries too keen to emulate its social model. You have four decades of deliberate grinding down of social safety nets, a winner takes all society and a public culture that derides anybody who gets into problems as losers or criminals and it's no wonder some people, lied to their whole lives that their gender made them special, go for what's basically 21st century fascism.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:23 PM on February 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
I can't delineate these two things in a way that makes me entirely satisfied.
Most of what you think you know about Zoe Quinn and her relationships is lies.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:24 PM on February 6, 2015 [33 favorites]
Most of what you think you know about Zoe Quinn and her relationships is lies.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:24 PM on February 6, 2015 [33 favorites]
Actually, y'know, I'm gonna amend and contexualize what I said; I still apologize for implying that the people on Tumblr were "doing feminism wrong", because that was not my intent.
It's more like, "they're being jerks and using [fill in your cause here] as an excuse," much like these guys are being jerks and using mens' rights as an excuse, or WBC are being jerks and using Christianity as an excuse, or some other people are jerks and use Ayn Rand as an excuse, blah blah blah fishcakes.
I think it's fair to affirm that there are some people on Tumblr who are just being jerks. These guys are correct in that assessment. Where they make the mistake is that their [whateverism] is separate from them being jerks, just like the fact that these guys are men is separate from them being jerks. Etc., etc., etc.
There's got to be a way to talk sense into these guys while simultaneously affirming that "but yeah, you're right, some people on Tumblr are just jerks."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's more like, "they're being jerks and using [fill in your cause here] as an excuse," much like these guys are being jerks and using mens' rights as an excuse, or WBC are being jerks and using Christianity as an excuse, or some other people are jerks and use Ayn Rand as an excuse, blah blah blah fishcakes.
I think it's fair to affirm that there are some people on Tumblr who are just being jerks. These guys are correct in that assessment. Where they make the mistake is that their [whateverism] is separate from them being jerks, just like the fact that these guys are men is separate from them being jerks. Etc., etc., etc.
There's got to be a way to talk sense into these guys while simultaneously affirming that "but yeah, you're right, some people on Tumblr are just jerks."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:26 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
It seems like these guys would be a lot happier if they spent far less time and energy being total douchebags.
Yeah, being a douchebag is funny that way.
...
I think the morality is more that suffering leads to truth, which is not necessarily the same as goodness.
I don't agree, but I'm turning this into a derail, so I'll leave it at that.
...
I'm not saying this is doxxing or harrassment. But I'm uncomfortable nevertheless. Let me put it this way: I now know an uncomfortable amount about Paul Elam's failed first marriage and failed relationship with his daughter, which I'm using as proof of his hypocrisy w/r/t his politics. I also know an uncomfortable amount about Zoe Quinn's failed relationship with her ex-boyfriend, which many gamergaters are using as proof of her hyprocrisy w/r/t her ethics and politics. I can't delineate these two things in a way that makes me entirely satisfied.
It sounds like Elam opened the door by bringing up the topics in the first place, no? And he's been on the horn with the journalist, replying and such. Whereas, Quinn's relationships were brought up without her asking or say-so.
That said, I'm not sure what I really learned from this article. Of course the guy would be a douchebag and a deadbeat dad and whatever else. It just seems like low-hanging fruit, so that we can all remind ourselves of how much we don't like this guy and others like him. That said, toppest of the keks to his for-profit foundation.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015
Yeah, being a douchebag is funny that way.
...
I think the morality is more that suffering leads to truth, which is not necessarily the same as goodness.
I don't agree, but I'm turning this into a derail, so I'll leave it at that.
...
I'm not saying this is doxxing or harrassment. But I'm uncomfortable nevertheless. Let me put it this way: I now know an uncomfortable amount about Paul Elam's failed first marriage and failed relationship with his daughter, which I'm using as proof of his hypocrisy w/r/t his politics. I also know an uncomfortable amount about Zoe Quinn's failed relationship with her ex-boyfriend, which many gamergaters are using as proof of her hyprocrisy w/r/t her ethics and politics. I can't delineate these two things in a way that makes me entirely satisfied.
It sounds like Elam opened the door by bringing up the topics in the first place, no? And he's been on the horn with the journalist, replying and such. Whereas, Quinn's relationships were brought up without her asking or say-so.
That said, I'm not sure what I really learned from this article. Of course the guy would be a douchebag and a deadbeat dad and whatever else. It just seems like low-hanging fruit, so that we can all remind ourselves of how much we don't like this guy and others like him. That said, toppest of the keks to his for-profit foundation.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015
I get what you're saying, naju, but I think it's hard to have this argument without a definite counter example in mind. Most of the articles that I've seen regarding Zoe Quinn did not follow basic journalistic practices, did not attempt to verify details or outright lied, did not contact Quinn for input, etc. If you're comparing this to the average Gamergate piece, then there's a clear difference, whereas if you're comparing this to a specific handful that you've seen, then there might be a commonality but that handful doesn't represent the nastiness that people complain about when they complain about Gamergate.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
Most of what you think you know about Zoe Quinn and her relationships is lies.
I'm into that. But are we setting the boundary at "this is true whereas this is not", then?
posted by naju at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015
I'm into that. But are we setting the boundary at "this is true whereas this is not", then?
posted by naju at 1:27 PM on February 6, 2015
And absolutely I believe in the statement that "just because someone was a jerk to you that does not mean you have the right to doxx/harrass/etc. them back in revenge."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:29 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:29 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
"but yeah, you're right, some people on Tumblr are just jerks."
*shrug* You could say the same for anything and anywhere. People nowadays complain about Tumblr and Twitter. Once upon a time it was LJ and Journalfen.
posted by kmz at 1:32 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
*shrug* You could say the same for anything and anywhere. People nowadays complain about Tumblr and Twitter. Once upon a time it was LJ and Journalfen.
posted by kmz at 1:32 PM on February 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
Those are some good points, tofu_crouton.
posted by naju at 1:36 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 1:36 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and I forgot to qualify that from what I hear, Tumblr's a pretty magical place. It just has some jerks around... but unlike other websites, whose jerks only get publicity when they make the news for violating something, Tumblr (and Facebook) interactions seem to make it everywhere, and are used to support the consensus on that website.
Sorry. I get really bitter sometimes, which doesn't help my already-patchy comments.
posted by halifix at 1:42 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sorry. I get really bitter sometimes, which doesn't help my already-patchy comments.
posted by halifix at 1:42 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
People nowadays complain about Tumblr and Twitter. Once upon a time it was LJ and Journalfen.
Eh, LJ and Journalfen were never even remotely mainstream. This is the first time I've even heard of the latter...
(...picking random local mainstream media site: twitter 180k hits, tumblr 1500 hits, livejournal 50 hits, journalfen zero hits. Guess which site all journalists use these days...).
posted by effbot at 1:44 PM on February 6, 2015
Eh, LJ and Journalfen were never even remotely mainstream. This is the first time I've even heard of the latter...
(...picking random local mainstream media site: twitter 180k hits, tumblr 1500 hits, livejournal 50 hits, journalfen zero hits. Guess which site all journalists use these days...).
posted by effbot at 1:44 PM on February 6, 2015
*shrug* You could say the same for anything and anywhere. People nowadays complain about Tumblr and Twitter. Once upon a time it was LJ and Journalfen.
That's kind of my point, though - that there is indeed always this faction of overwrought jerks, which happens to be on Tumblr now and which may have been on LJ earlier. And it may help to own that they are indeed kind of overwrought, and what they do isn't really helping.
Ironically, it was on Journalfen where I heard the phrase: "stop being on my side, you're making my side look stupid."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:46 PM on February 6, 2015
That's kind of my point, though - that there is indeed always this faction of overwrought jerks, which happens to be on Tumblr now and which may have been on LJ earlier. And it may help to own that they are indeed kind of overwrought, and what they do isn't really helping.
Ironically, it was on Journalfen where I heard the phrase: "stop being on my side, you're making my side look stupid."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:46 PM on February 6, 2015
Pogo_Fuzzybutt: I've observed [older] men I know seem to struggle with this. And I sort of wonder, given my understanding of the demographics of the MRA movement, how much of that sense of loss is driving the paranoia and weirdness.
Ah, well-put, I now understand your prior point. To be honest, I always assumed MRA was a variation on the PUA crap, and as such, put it in the college dude realm, not as a "movement" for older men who "aged" out of the demographic of most market power.
I realize there are different sorts of powerlessness. There are older men looking back at the younger men's world they have now passed beyond, and there are those of many ages who see women as holding some magical power in relationships. I think that power is a simple one, and one that most people of both sexes have: the power to say "no."
In terms of PUA/MRA, women say "no" to unwanted sexual attention and advances, which makes the mammoth hunters pissed off. Except they do the same thing without thinking about it, but not in potentially sexual situations. They say no to telemarketers who take up their time at home, to friends who want to hang out and do something they don't want to do, to a boss who asks them to stay late for a project. Some people feel like they have less power in these situations and will say "yes" when they don't want to, but unless your livelihood is really on the line, you can say "no" and have that magical power to take your own path and not follow someone else's wishes.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ah, well-put, I now understand your prior point. To be honest, I always assumed MRA was a variation on the PUA crap, and as such, put it in the college dude realm, not as a "movement" for older men who "aged" out of the demographic of most market power.
I realize there are different sorts of powerlessness. There are older men looking back at the younger men's world they have now passed beyond, and there are those of many ages who see women as holding some magical power in relationships. I think that power is a simple one, and one that most people of both sexes have: the power to say "no."
In terms of PUA/MRA, women say "no" to unwanted sexual attention and advances, which makes the mammoth hunters pissed off. Except they do the same thing without thinking about it, but not in potentially sexual situations. They say no to telemarketers who take up their time at home, to friends who want to hang out and do something they don't want to do, to a boss who asks them to stay late for a project. Some people feel like they have less power in these situations and will say "yes" when they don't want to, but unless your livelihood is really on the line, you can say "no" and have that magical power to take your own path and not follow someone else's wishes.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on February 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
naju: "I'm not saying this is doxxing or harrassment. But I'm uncomfortable nevertheless. Let me put it this way: I now know an uncomfortable amount about Paul Elam's failed first marriage and failed relationship with his daughter, which I'm using as proof of his hypocrisy w/r/t his movement and politics. I also know an uncomfortable amount about Zoe Quinn's failed relationship with her ex-boyfriend, which many gamergaters are using as proof of her hypocrisy w/r/t her ethics and politics. I can't delineate these two things in a way that makes me entirely satisfied."
For one thing, Paul Elam is a professional lobbyist (we'll go with that word) on issues like child custody, child support, etc., so his own experiences with these issues is relevant to his professional work. Zoe Quinn is not a professional girlfriend or lobbyist for dating or whatever ... she's a programmer. Her relationships, failed or otherwise, are not relevant to her work. (Now, arguably, the accusation that she slept with journalists in exchange for coverage might be relevant, but no newspaper in the world would print an accusation like that from a scorned ex-boyfriend without EXTREME FACT CHECKING.)
Moreover, the Zoe Quinn material is about her sex life, and "salacious" material like that or accusations about a person's sex life are typically defamatory per se -- that is, presumed by the law to be so damaging that you don't actually have to prove you suffered any actual monetary damages by having them repeated -- simply having those lies told about you is damaging enough. Even if the Paul Elam article were composed entirely of falsehoods, it does not fall into the same category of defamation; he would have to show that the article materially damaged him in some way.
Similarly, the fact that a particular statehouse lobbyist (for example, since I know a lot of statehouse lobbyists) has a screwed-up relationship with his kids isn't relevant when he's lobbying about environmental issues. But if he starts lobbying on custody issues, it's reasonable to have questions about the individual's personal background with those issues, especially if he's advocating laws that he would personally benefit from but hiding the fact that he would benefit. This is especially true if part of their lobbying narrative is their personal story -- "I know all about this not just because I've studied it exhaustively, but because I lived through a hellish custody battle" -- then they're inviting scrutiny of that narrative.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:06 PM on February 6, 2015 [64 favorites]
For one thing, Paul Elam is a professional lobbyist (we'll go with that word) on issues like child custody, child support, etc., so his own experiences with these issues is relevant to his professional work. Zoe Quinn is not a professional girlfriend or lobbyist for dating or whatever ... she's a programmer. Her relationships, failed or otherwise, are not relevant to her work. (Now, arguably, the accusation that she slept with journalists in exchange for coverage might be relevant, but no newspaper in the world would print an accusation like that from a scorned ex-boyfriend without EXTREME FACT CHECKING.)
Moreover, the Zoe Quinn material is about her sex life, and "salacious" material like that or accusations about a person's sex life are typically defamatory per se -- that is, presumed by the law to be so damaging that you don't actually have to prove you suffered any actual monetary damages by having them repeated -- simply having those lies told about you is damaging enough. Even if the Paul Elam article were composed entirely of falsehoods, it does not fall into the same category of defamation; he would have to show that the article materially damaged him in some way.
Similarly, the fact that a particular statehouse lobbyist (for example, since I know a lot of statehouse lobbyists) has a screwed-up relationship with his kids isn't relevant when he's lobbying about environmental issues. But if he starts lobbying on custody issues, it's reasonable to have questions about the individual's personal background with those issues, especially if he's advocating laws that he would personally benefit from but hiding the fact that he would benefit. This is especially true if part of their lobbying narrative is their personal story -- "I know all about this not just because I've studied it exhaustively, but because I lived through a hellish custody battle" -- then they're inviting scrutiny of that narrative.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:06 PM on February 6, 2015 [64 favorites]
The MRM is, at its core, a hustle profiting off of the disappointment, rage, and confusion of poorly educated middle-aged men.
MRM Hmmmm. MRM. How on earth can I possibly be reading that as NRA. Must be my dyslexia.
posted by notreally at 2:30 PM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
MRM Hmmmm. MRM. How on earth can I possibly be reading that as NRA. Must be my dyslexia.
posted by notreally at 2:30 PM on February 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Man, I am just dying to run into a guy wearing one of those "Meninist" shirts so I can give him a little lecture on the dangers of Communism.
I still think they blew a wonderful opportunity to call themselves men-o-knights.
posted by emptythought at 2:32 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I still think they blew a wonderful opportunity to call themselves men-o-knights.
posted by emptythought at 2:32 PM on February 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Elam has said he was a “zombie” before he read MRA founding father Warren Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex, published in 1993 and considered the bible of the men’s rights movement.
For insight into the rotten foundation of Elam and his "movement," you could do worse than to check out the Farrell's Follies series on reddit.
Despite being touted as some sort of revelatory work, the book is quite possible the worst argued morass of incoherent half-baked blithering I have ever had the misfortune to try to read. It is sub-Ayn Rand levels of thought out, and having it consistently held up as the ur-text for the MRM makes me feel embarrassed for those doing it in the same way that a "Who is John Galt?" bumper sticker does.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:14 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
For insight into the rotten foundation of Elam and his "movement," you could do worse than to check out the Farrell's Follies series on reddit.
Despite being touted as some sort of revelatory work, the book is quite possible the worst argued morass of incoherent half-baked blithering I have ever had the misfortune to try to read. It is sub-Ayn Rand levels of thought out, and having it consistently held up as the ur-text for the MRM makes me feel embarrassed for those doing it in the same way that a "Who is John Galt?" bumper sticker does.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:14 PM on February 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
the thing i don't understand about the tumblr trope is that it's such a tiny part of the site and yet it's the overwhelming impression that people have. i get why that is - things like tumblrinaction highlight the worst examples, it's a terrible place for real conversation so it gets to be the flamiest of the flames oft retweeted topics, the parts of tumblr people generally mock are 14 year old girls and they are historically a pretty easy target - but, i mean, the porn alone makes the idea that it's just the biggest outrage feminists getting their grar on seem funny to me. beyond the porn, there's also the bronies and the mra strongholds, and the otherkin, and the fanfic, and the street fashion, and the anti-racist politics, and the hair and nails guides - really, if you can imagine it there is probably a very dedicated group of people sharing it and talking about it on tumblr.
but somehow conversations only ever seem to bring up the straw-feminism...
posted by nadawi at 3:19 PM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
but somehow conversations only ever seem to bring up the straw-feminism...
posted by nadawi at 3:19 PM on February 6, 2015 [25 favorites]
Oh, but the point I really wanted to make about Farrell's book is that while its consistent theme is "women are the real oppressors," what it mostly reminded me of was the kind of justifications emotional abusive partners make. The whole premise of Farrell's work is that men hurt themselves, denying their emotions and throwing themselves into dangerous situations in order to protect women. Not only does this not actually describe most men (heh, finally a good use for #notallmen), but it strips them of agency for their actions, instead ascribing the core of men's motivations as serving the interests of women.
So women being legally or customarily banned from "manly" jobs? That's just men looking out for the ladies. Women not being allow to serve in the military? Gotta keep those dames secure! Men taking stupid juvenile risks? Just showing the gals how brave you are! Men spending hours working on the job at the expense of connecting to their family? Just trying to keep the little lady snug at home!
The entire book is basically Farrell saying over and over, "look how much men hurt ourselves, FOR YOU." That's an abusive and manipulative tactic of guilt-tripping someone in a relationship that does not get an less unsavory when applied to society as a whole. So I am wholly unsurprised that Elam's personal history is filled with past partners whom he used up and tossed aside.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:28 PM on February 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
So women being legally or customarily banned from "manly" jobs? That's just men looking out for the ladies. Women not being allow to serve in the military? Gotta keep those dames secure! Men taking stupid juvenile risks? Just showing the gals how brave you are! Men spending hours working on the job at the expense of connecting to their family? Just trying to keep the little lady snug at home!
The entire book is basically Farrell saying over and over, "look how much men hurt ourselves, FOR YOU." That's an abusive and manipulative tactic of guilt-tripping someone in a relationship that does not get an less unsavory when applied to society as a whole. So I am wholly unsurprised that Elam's personal history is filled with past partners whom he used up and tossed aside.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:28 PM on February 6, 2015 [39 favorites]
That's an abusive and manipulative tactic of guilt-tripping someone in a relationship that does not get an less unsavory when applied to society as a whole.
Not to mention incredibly misandrist. If a Known Feminist described men the way these MRA guys describe men, can you imagine the firestorm? "Poor men, helplessly enslaved by their hormones and conditioning, so weak-willed and emotional that they can only respond to impulses to 'sacrifice' themselves for their mates!"
posted by rtha at 3:41 PM on February 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
Not to mention incredibly misandrist. If a Known Feminist described men the way these MRA guys describe men, can you imagine the firestorm? "Poor men, helplessly enslaved by their hormones and conditioning, so weak-willed and emotional that they can only respond to impulses to 'sacrifice' themselves for their mates!"
posted by rtha at 3:41 PM on February 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
Women have very little idea of how much men hate them. ~Germaine Greer
posted by caryatid at 4:39 PM on February 6, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by caryatid at 4:39 PM on February 6, 2015 [24 favorites]
This is nothing new (but it was more age-appropriate then) .
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:48 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:48 PM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought about it some more, and it occurred to me that the reporter never asked him about his relationship with his own father, the verbally and physically Army veteran.
posted by clockzero at 10:11 PM on February 6, 2015
posted by clockzero at 10:11 PM on February 6, 2015
I'm a man and I like being a man but my god do I ever hate having to share the word "man" with these fucking idiot monkey losers.
posted by lastobelus at 12:06 AM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by lastobelus at 12:06 AM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's kind of my point, though - that there is indeed always this faction of overwrought jerks, which happens to be on Tumblr now and which may have been on LJ earlier. And it may help to own that they are indeed kind of overwrought, and what they do isn't really helping.
Tumblr (like Livejournal before it) attracts a lot of young people who are starting to figure out their own opinions about identity, community, feminism, etc., mostly by talking to one another (i.e. not working from a common "academic" base of premises.) It has especially become a kind of community hub for queer and neuroatypical kids. Sometimes they get it wrong, as sometimes happens when someone is (a) young, (b) engaging with new ideas, or (c) a person.
It's hard to get taken seriously when you're a teenager, and doubly so when you're a teenager who is from an oppressed group trying to talk about that oppression, which is why I think Tumblr is so attractive to a lot of kids and I think also kind of contributes to why the tone can sometimes get a little...dramatic*. Dismissing them as "overwrought jerks" who are just looking to get their grar on is reductive and unkind.
(There's also that Tumblr works differently than Livejournal did, and so stuff gets spread around and amplified as it echoes off the walls--when I decided to stage a NOBLE ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE against the RIDICULOUS testing requirements of the 9th grade English curriculum at my school, I could write about it as if it were the worst thing to ever happen to education and it would only be seen by the two dozen or so people who read my Livejournal and also had talked to me enough to know that no, I wasn't so lacking in perspective to actually think that, but that it was a thing that was important to me and that was stressing me out and that was going to come out in the writing. On Tumblr, someone's similar rant about blue mittens or whatever may come from a similar place--a place of genuine frustration, yeah, but not actually with the intention of making it The Hellmouth From Which All Problems Spring, and if it gets reblogged by the right friend-of-a-friend it's 30000 notes.)
* Part of it is also just a kind of "internet voice" where it sometimes seems like everyone has agreed that it's normal to talk to one another in ways that would incite a fistfight in meatspace. Tumblr and 4chan are remarkably similar in this respect.
posted by kagredon at 1:04 AM on February 7, 2015 [22 favorites]
Tumblr (like Livejournal before it) attracts a lot of young people who are starting to figure out their own opinions about identity, community, feminism, etc., mostly by talking to one another (i.e. not working from a common "academic" base of premises.) It has especially become a kind of community hub for queer and neuroatypical kids. Sometimes they get it wrong, as sometimes happens when someone is (a) young, (b) engaging with new ideas, or (c) a person.
It's hard to get taken seriously when you're a teenager, and doubly so when you're a teenager who is from an oppressed group trying to talk about that oppression, which is why I think Tumblr is so attractive to a lot of kids and I think also kind of contributes to why the tone can sometimes get a little...dramatic*. Dismissing them as "overwrought jerks" who are just looking to get their grar on is reductive and unkind.
(There's also that Tumblr works differently than Livejournal did, and so stuff gets spread around and amplified as it echoes off the walls--when I decided to stage a NOBLE ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE against the RIDICULOUS testing requirements of the 9th grade English curriculum at my school, I could write about it as if it were the worst thing to ever happen to education and it would only be seen by the two dozen or so people who read my Livejournal and also had talked to me enough to know that no, I wasn't so lacking in perspective to actually think that, but that it was a thing that was important to me and that was stressing me out and that was going to come out in the writing. On Tumblr, someone's similar rant about blue mittens or whatever may come from a similar place--a place of genuine frustration, yeah, but not actually with the intention of making it The Hellmouth From Which All Problems Spring, and if it gets reblogged by the right friend-of-a-friend it's 30000 notes.)
* Part of it is also just a kind of "internet voice" where it sometimes seems like everyone has agreed that it's normal to talk to one another in ways that would incite a fistfight in meatspace. Tumblr and 4chan are remarkably similar in this respect.
posted by kagredon at 1:04 AM on February 7, 2015 [22 favorites]
Is it just me, or does Paul Elam look like a middle-aged Travis Bickle?
posted by gingerest at 1:42 AM on February 7, 2015
posted by gingerest at 1:42 AM on February 7, 2015
Kagredon, you've made me wonder about something suddenly - I've been wondering at why Tumblr is getting singled out by these guys when LJ didn't. Because you're absolutely right that they both attracted mostly the barely-into-college-aged users you're talking about.
Maybe it's because there just plain weren't as many people online in general during LJ's heyday? So yeah, it's true that it attracted the same kind of crowd, but the crowd was way smaller 10years ago. And then today, LJ is out and Tumblr is in, and Tumblr is also bigger, so it pulls focus.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:26 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's because there just plain weren't as many people online in general during LJ's heyday? So yeah, it's true that it attracted the same kind of crowd, but the crowd was way smaller 10years ago. And then today, LJ is out and Tumblr is in, and Tumblr is also bigger, so it pulls focus.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:26 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
LJ absolutely used to be the site whose members were stereotyped as overly emotional teenage girls, but now it's a shadow of what it was and tumblr is the new hotness there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:46 AM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:46 AM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
The people mocking Tumblr now had been mocking Xanga years back. LJ was never as heavily identified with a userbase of teenage girls.
And to reiterate a point from others above, Tumblr's very structure "rewards" controversial posts by spreading them far and wide. That makes it much easier for places like /r/TumblrInAction to cherry-pick the "worst" posts.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:43 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
And to reiterate a point from others above, Tumblr's very structure "rewards" controversial posts by spreading them far and wide. That makes it much easier for places like /r/TumblrInAction to cherry-pick the "worst" posts.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:43 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
and it's honestly still just a small portion of what tumblr is. i feel like a lot of people who stereotype it have only really seen it through imgur.
posted by nadawi at 7:29 AM on February 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:29 AM on February 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
LJ absolutely used to be the site whose members were stereotyped as overly emotional teenage girls, but now it's a shadow of what it was and tumblr is the new hotness there.
Last I checked, LJ was still that, but Russian.
I think the problem with Tumblr is that there are two levels of "liking" something. There's the regular kind, which is your usual thumbs-up of approval, like favourites here or upvotes elsewhere, which would ideally tend to reduce echochamberiness by making it unnecessary for other users to join the conversation just to agree with things; you can see at a glance what's popular, and often stuff will even get ranked by popularity, but you don't see the same message restated a zillion times*. But then Tumblr (and Twitter, which is similarly derided) also has the reblog function, which, well, if you're following a bunch of blogs with overlapping subject matter, you do see the exact same message a zillion times. I can see that getting annoying to the point of OKAY JEEZ I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME, which a lot of the more casual anti-"Tumblr SJW" whinging seems to boil down to.
*unless there's a stubborn contrarian pretending to be thick about something basic
posted by Sys Rq at 7:38 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Last I checked, LJ was still that, but Russian.
I think the problem with Tumblr is that there are two levels of "liking" something. There's the regular kind, which is your usual thumbs-up of approval, like favourites here or upvotes elsewhere, which would ideally tend to reduce echochamberiness by making it unnecessary for other users to join the conversation just to agree with things; you can see at a glance what's popular, and often stuff will even get ranked by popularity, but you don't see the same message restated a zillion times*. But then Tumblr (and Twitter, which is similarly derided) also has the reblog function, which, well, if you're following a bunch of blogs with overlapping subject matter, you do see the exact same message a zillion times. I can see that getting annoying to the point of OKAY JEEZ I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME, which a lot of the more casual anti-"Tumblr SJW" whinging seems to boil down to.
*unless there's a stubborn contrarian pretending to be thick about something basic
posted by Sys Rq at 7:38 AM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Barely eight years ago LJ was the shit-spraying vortex of internet drama, to the extent that Encyclopedia Dramatica was orginally created just to document it. Another parallel: it was also the place to find targets for orchestrated harrassment in response to such offenses as being feminist, autistic, or posting too many photos of yourself. Entitled, enraged men have just moved on to Tumblr and Twitter to engage in these campaigns, and to bellow to anyone within earshot that these two sites are a hotbed of Straw Feminists who are literally the Worst People Ever.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:28 AM on February 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:28 AM on February 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
111 comments in, and no one has linked this Totally Rad rocksong called "Go My Own Way"?
(warning: this is actually real and actually posted on Elams youtube page)
posted by lkc at 12:51 PM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
(warning: this is actually real and actually posted on Elams youtube page)
posted by lkc at 12:51 PM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
That is a beautiful find, lkc. All of the earnestness of Christian rock, all of the musicality of nu-metal.
(I was so relived that it wasn't a modified-lyrics cover of "Go Your Own Way")
posted by kagredon at 1:26 PM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I was so relived that it wasn't a modified-lyrics cover of "Go Your Own Way")
posted by kagredon at 1:26 PM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
All of the earnestness of Christian rock, all of the musicality of nu-metal.
Sidenote: I feel like nu-metal influence has lasted longer inside of Christian rock than outside of Christian rock. Please discuss, everyone, using only your detuned guitars with their fat-ass riffs.
Sidenote^2: A friend's dad is a Christian preacher. Friend's sister is also quite religious herself. When they're in the car together, they always listen to Christian rock. But, something funny I noticed: when the sister wasn't around, the dad would prefer to listen to plain old classic rock.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:08 PM on February 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Sidenote: I feel like nu-metal influence has lasted longer inside of Christian rock than outside of Christian rock. Please discuss, everyone, using only your detuned guitars with their fat-ass riffs.
Sidenote^2: A friend's dad is a Christian preacher. Friend's sister is also quite religious herself. When they're in the car together, they always listen to Christian rock. But, something funny I noticed: when the sister wasn't around, the dad would prefer to listen to plain old classic rock.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:08 PM on February 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I feel like nu-metal influence has lasted longer inside of Christian rock than outside of Christian rock. Please discuss, everyone, using only your detuned guitars with their fat-ass riffs.
Yes, P.O.D. still exists. (I looked it up.)
posted by Sys Rq at 3:52 PM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, P.O.D. still exists. (I looked it up.)
posted by Sys Rq at 3:52 PM on February 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Everything about this disgusts me - the man is horrible and crazy, the article is muckraking and exploitive. I want Buzzfeed to collapse on top of Elam, destroying both of them.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:32 PM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:32 PM on February 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Now, arguably, the accusation that she slept with journalists in exchange for coverage might be relevant, but no newspaper in the world would print an accusation like that from a scorned ex-boyfriend without EXTREME FACT CHECKING.)
As a side note (since nobody pointed this out), the fact-checking has been done (by quite a few people) and not only was the majority of the people she was accused by the ex of having a relationship with not journalists, the one or two that were journalists never reviewed the game (and in fact the only mention by any of them was in passing in an article about dozens of other games)
It's the sort of completely patently false accusation that has hung around because it gets repeated enough, like the accusation that Anita Sarkeesian is a scam artist who took the money and ran -- even though she went on to actually put out the videos that the money was raised to make
posted by flatluigi at 1:06 PM on February 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a side note (since nobody pointed this out), the fact-checking has been done (by quite a few people) and not only was the majority of the people she was accused by the ex of having a relationship with not journalists, the one or two that were journalists never reviewed the game (and in fact the only mention by any of them was in passing in an article about dozens of other games)
It's the sort of completely patently false accusation that has hung around because it gets repeated enough, like the accusation that Anita Sarkeesian is a scam artist who took the money and ran -- even though she went on to actually put out the videos that the money was raised to make
posted by flatluigi at 1:06 PM on February 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Regarding Tumblr: a general user of Tumblr will only see posts by people they choose to follow (and the occasional ad for other blogs/corporate blogs thanks to the newish recommendation system). If someone follows, say, only blogs that posts pictures of cute dogs or cats or lizards that's all they're going to get from tumblr and within reason will be all their experience is. Follow a bunch of people who like wrestling and you'll get wrestling talk, follow a bunch of porn blogs and you'll get exactly what you want from that, etc. It is fairly unlikely for you to come across things you don't have interest in, barring your choice to follow personal blogs instead of content blogs and the actual humans running those talk about their interests sometimes.
If you seek out blogs that talk about feminism or talk about race or talk about sexuality you'll find them, whether that's to find likeminded people to talk about common issues with or whether it's to get fodder for your mocking anti-sj tumblr or your subreddit all about those wacky people who aren't straight white dudes with able bodies and minds. It's not an everpresent thing on the site for all users, it's just something that can be found if you go look for it.
posted by flatluigi at 1:15 PM on February 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you seek out blogs that talk about feminism or talk about race or talk about sexuality you'll find them, whether that's to find likeminded people to talk about common issues with or whether it's to get fodder for your mocking anti-sj tumblr or your subreddit all about those wacky people who aren't straight white dudes with able bodies and minds. It's not an everpresent thing on the site for all users, it's just something that can be found if you go look for it.
posted by flatluigi at 1:15 PM on February 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have a suddenly-realized dumb question -
Is Paul Elam's last name really and sincerely, he-was-born-with-it, "Elam"?
Spelt backwards it's "Male", so now I'm suddenly suspicious it's a self-bestowed moniker as some sort of chest-thumping male-identity thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:41 PM on February 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is Paul Elam's last name really and sincerely, he-was-born-with-it, "Elam"?
Spelt backwards it's "Male", so now I'm suddenly suspicious it's a self-bestowed moniker as some sort of chest-thumping male-identity thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:41 PM on February 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Elam is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:
-Charles Wheaton Elam (1866-1917), Louisiana politician
-Joseph Barton Elam (1821-1885), U.S. representative from Louisiana's 4th congressional district
-Joseph Barton Elam, Jr. (1878-1935), Louisiana politician and journalist
-Jack Elam (1918 – 2003), American actor
-James Elam (1918 – 1995), American physician
-Jason Elam (born 1970), American football placekicker
-Katrina Elam (born 1983), American country music singer
-Keith Elam or Guru (1961 – 2010), American rapper
-Lee Elam (born 1976), English footballer
-Norah Elam (1878 – 1961), Irish-born suffragette and fascist
posted by Sys Rq at 1:58 PM on February 10, 2015
-Charles Wheaton Elam (1866-1917), Louisiana politician
-Joseph Barton Elam (1821-1885), U.S. representative from Louisiana's 4th congressional district
-Joseph Barton Elam, Jr. (1878-1935), Louisiana politician and journalist
-Jack Elam (1918 – 2003), American actor
-James Elam (1918 – 1995), American physician
-Jason Elam (born 1970), American football placekicker
-Katrina Elam (born 1983), American country music singer
-Keith Elam or Guru (1961 – 2010), American rapper
-Lee Elam (born 1976), English footballer
-Norah Elam (1878 – 1961), Irish-born suffragette and fascist
posted by Sys Rq at 1:58 PM on February 10, 2015
I don't think EC doubted it was *a* surname, just that it was *his* surname. I have wondered the same thing.
From the fact his ex didn't mention a name change, I suspect this was just a happy coincidence.
posted by gingerest at 1:24 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
From the fact his ex didn't mention a name change, I suspect this was just a happy coincidence.
posted by gingerest at 1:24 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
The classic old-Eton surname of "Tiwkcuf" (prn. TEWK-CUFF) was already taken, clearly.
posted by longbaugh at 3:33 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by longbaugh at 3:33 AM on February 11, 2015
Jeff Sharlet: Are You Man Enough for the Men's Rights Movement?
Just a warning: there's a lot of nasty shit Elam and other MRAs spout in this piece, especially around sexual assault and gender-based violence towards women.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:52 AM on February 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just a warning: there's a lot of nasty shit Elam and other MRAs spout in this piece, especially around sexual assault and gender-based violence towards women.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:52 AM on February 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is especially hilarious considering that the gummergobblers' main complaint about Anita Sarkeesian is some sort of nonfalsifiable conspiracy theory about her having taken the money and run.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:15 AM on March 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:15 AM on March 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the blog post:
We had completed filming immediately prior to this split. All that is left is the editing, the animations, and possibly a bit of fact-checking.
I would say ethics in video game journalism prioritizes the latter.
posted by maxsparber at 9:04 AM on March 3, 2015
We had completed filming immediately prior to this split. All that is left is the editing, the animations, and possibly a bit of fact-checking.
I would say ethics in video game journalism prioritizes the latter.
posted by maxsparber at 9:04 AM on March 3, 2015
I was just going to go with "so just editing and animations, then?"
posted by zombieflanders at 9:11 AM on March 3, 2015
posted by zombieflanders at 9:11 AM on March 3, 2015
We had completed filming immediately prior to this split. All that is left is the editing, the animations, and possibly a bit of fact-checking.
oh well I mean if that's all
My glee that these guys are going to learn exactly why they sounded so ridiculous when they were whining about Anita Sarkeesian taking a reasonable amount of time to produce well-made, high-quality videos is tempered somewhat by how there is no chance they will even experience a fraction of that criticism (let alone, although I don't wish this on them, the harassment.)
posted by kagredon at 9:37 AM on March 3, 2015
oh well I mean if that's all
My glee that these guys are going to learn exactly why they sounded so ridiculous when they were whining about Anita Sarkeesian taking a reasonable amount of time to produce well-made, high-quality videos is tempered somewhat by how there is no chance they will even experience a fraction of that criticism (let alone, although I don't wish this on them, the harassment.)
posted by kagredon at 9:37 AM on March 3, 2015
My glee that these guys are going to learn exactly why they sounded so ridiculous when they were whining
Trust me, they will never ever realize how ridiculous they sound.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 AM on March 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Trust me, they will never ever realize how ridiculous they sound.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 AM on March 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
film comes out 6 months after scheduled, editing is borderline-incoherent and animations are nonexistent
Gators everywhere: it is a triumph anyone who says otherwise is biased.
posted by kagredon at 9:59 AM on March 3, 2015
Gators everywhere: it is a triumph anyone who says otherwise is biased.
posted by kagredon at 9:59 AM on March 3, 2015
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You gotta love unintentional moments of clarity
posted by The Whelk at 10:46 AM on February 6, 2015 [132 favorites]