there will never be any more decent Marvel movies...there can’t be.
May 10, 2015 7:15 PM Subscribe
Age of Robots: How Marvel Is Killing the Popcorn Movie
Age of Ultron is quite possibly the worst movie of Whedon’s career, and I can’t get over it. I’ve been obsessed with this movie for a week now, poking through it in my mind, trying to figure out what went wrong. I mean, it’s just plain hacky, in ways I frankly have trouble comprehending: It’s riddled with cliches, shortcuts, set-ups without pay-offs, elements that seem, not like bad choices, but like actual mistakes.
Age of Ultron is quite possibly the worst movie of Whedon’s career, and I can’t get over it. I’ve been obsessed with this movie for a week now, poking through it in my mind, trying to figure out what went wrong. I mean, it’s just plain hacky, in ways I frankly have trouble comprehending: It’s riddled with cliches, shortcuts, set-ups without pay-offs, elements that seem, not like bad choices, but like actual mistakes.
Oh man, this was amazing. And then this--except for Maria Hill, who is clearly saving herself for her one true love, Exposition. --cracked me up on top of everything else.
I really like how Sady Doyle connected the sexism problem with the larger writing problem--it's a convincing argument.
posted by TwoStride at 7:38 PM on May 10, 2015 [27 favorites]
I really like how Sady Doyle connected the sexism problem with the larger writing problem--it's a convincing argument.
posted by TwoStride at 7:38 PM on May 10, 2015 [27 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:41 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:41 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
For some of us, Benedict Cumberbatch does NOT make things better.
he creeps me out so much!
posted by TwoStride at 7:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [43 favorites]
he creeps me out so much!
posted by TwoStride at 7:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [43 favorites]
As I said to my Dad on the way out of the theatre today, "Just watching the movie is kind of like a project."
But a fun project. We'll both probably go back and see it again. It's a fucking comic book, and really three or four of them crammed into one volume, and so it's a bit much. But for me it was worth the price of admission to see Black Widow coo to Banner "You're so adorable!" then push him off a cliff with the followup "but I need the other guy."
posted by localroger at 7:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
But a fun project. We'll both probably go back and see it again. It's a fucking comic book, and really three or four of them crammed into one volume, and so it's a bit much. But for me it was worth the price of admission to see Black Widow coo to Banner "You're so adorable!" then push him off a cliff with the followup "but I need the other guy."
posted by localroger at 7:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
If Ant-man and whatever is after ant-man fail in the same ways described, I think I'll buy the argument more.
Well, Ant-Man has had a troubled production history and Civil War (which I think is the next in line) has had a ridiculous number of superhero cameos mentioned, so I'm actually sort of hoping the others in phase 3 fare better.
I'm 90% on board with everything she says - what I don't agree with is this part: In order to keep up with the Avengers, you need to keep up with Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor, and in order to keep up with those, you should probably be watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., which will really help you keep up with Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, and Guardians of the Galaxy.
I mean, they're creating all of these things because fans will have enough brand loyalty to tune in and watch them, but Joss has said that he created Age of Ultron to be digestible for those who aren't tuning in to Agents of SHIELD, and I maintain that the movie works better if you just sort of forget everything that has happened in the MCU since Avengers.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:48 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, Ant-Man has had a troubled production history and Civil War (which I think is the next in line) has had a ridiculous number of superhero cameos mentioned, so I'm actually sort of hoping the others in phase 3 fare better.
I'm 90% on board with everything she says - what I don't agree with is this part: In order to keep up with the Avengers, you need to keep up with Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor, and in order to keep up with those, you should probably be watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., which will really help you keep up with Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, and Guardians of the Galaxy.
I mean, they're creating all of these things because fans will have enough brand loyalty to tune in and watch them, but Joss has said that he created Age of Ultron to be digestible for those who aren't tuning in to Agents of SHIELD, and I maintain that the movie works better if you just sort of forget everything that has happened in the MCU since Avengers.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:48 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I dunno. I thought it was fun. And the Marvel geek in me was like to my friend "woah, the Infinity Gems, and look, they basically made Vision into Adam Warlock who was a weird pseudo Kirbyesque Marvel expanded universe character....." Which was about when my friend's eyes glazed over. Still!
posted by triage_lazarus at 7:48 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 7:48 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I haven't seen the movie yet, but a lot of the flaws he describes are practically intrinsic to comics of the Marvel superhero type. Too many characters, over-frequent fights, the necessity of keeping the character around and more or less unchanged, the constant super-brief crossovers, setups, and allusions — sound like Marvel comics to you? Sure does to me! If Marvel wants to make their movies more like their comics, that's pretty much what's going to have to happen. If you've been reading Avengers (of various stripes), Iron Man, Cap, Spider-Man, and all the other flagships over the last few years, to say nothing of the Ultimates universe, you will know that this is par for the course there.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, and perhaps it doesn't make for good movies, but it sure does make the films a lot more like their source material. If you don't like that... bad news. That's probably how it's going to be from now on, since people seem to eat it up!
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm not saying it's a good thing, and perhaps it doesn't make for good movies, but it sure does make the films a lot more like their source material. If you don't like that... bad news. That's probably how it's going to be from now on, since people seem to eat it up!
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
For some of us, Benedict Cumberbatch does NOT make things better.
yeah, tbh I'm about as neutral as a person can be on Bandicoot Crashconsole these days, but casting him as Strange was the most boring/safe/predictable choice possible and I am not holding out hope for that movie, which is sad because he is one of my favorite Marvel characters ever (Dr Strange should be the movie where you take chances and do things that almost shouldn't work but do!)
posted by kagredon at 7:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
For some of us, Benedict Cumberbatch does NOT make things better.
yeah, tbh I'm about as neutral as a person can be on Bandicoot Crashconsole these days, but casting him as Strange was the most boring/safe/predictable choice possible and I am not holding out hope for that movie, which is sad because he is one of my favorite Marvel characters ever (Dr Strange should be the movie where you take chances and do things that almost shouldn't work but do!)
posted by kagredon at 7:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
>> I mean, tell me: What was Captain America’s arc in Age of Ultron?
He stands in narrative opposition to Tony Stark, and is an audience surrogate. Marvel didn't invent this. This structure goes back to Greek tragedy.
>> Why does he need to be there, what’s his personal investment in the problem, and what does he learn about himself by solving that problem?
Since every person on the planet knows this is a serial franchise, we know that all the episodes of the serial build on one another, so the answer doesn't have to come in this episode.
But fine, we'll insist that each episode is full standalone. Then you can say that what Cap learns here is that Stark's focus on defending against existential threats instead of petty crimes leads him to reform and lead the team with new members.
And, playing off the serial aspect again: Cap's arc pays off in the movie's final line, "Avengers..." The next word is "assemble," of course. A new team is being assembled.
By the way, since every person in the audience mentally adds the word at the end of the movie, it's a unique interactive moment with the audience, which becomes part of the narrative itself.
This is called "fun."
>> Tell me how Thor grew or changed over the course of this movie.
Thor saw a vision of Ragnarok. All you need to know is the name "Thor" itself in order to get that. It shocked him to his core and explains his abrupt exit at the end of the movie, and perhaps from the team itself.
>> Tell me why Nick Fury or Maria Hill were essential to the story.
Who said every character needs to be essential in every story?
>> When Maria Hill tells the story of Ultron to her grandchildren, how will she say these events changed her life? How will she say she felt about her friend Tony’s choice to build a genocide-bot? Did she feel anything? Or was she just, you know, there?
Do you ask these questions about every character in every movie you see? You must be a real hit at parties.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:51 PM on May 10, 2015 [59 favorites]
He stands in narrative opposition to Tony Stark, and is an audience surrogate. Marvel didn't invent this. This structure goes back to Greek tragedy.
>> Why does he need to be there, what’s his personal investment in the problem, and what does he learn about himself by solving that problem?
Since every person on the planet knows this is a serial franchise, we know that all the episodes of the serial build on one another, so the answer doesn't have to come in this episode.
But fine, we'll insist that each episode is full standalone. Then you can say that what Cap learns here is that Stark's focus on defending against existential threats instead of petty crimes leads him to reform and lead the team with new members.
And, playing off the serial aspect again: Cap's arc pays off in the movie's final line, "Avengers..." The next word is "assemble," of course. A new team is being assembled.
By the way, since every person in the audience mentally adds the word at the end of the movie, it's a unique interactive moment with the audience, which becomes part of the narrative itself.
This is called "fun."
>> Tell me how Thor grew or changed over the course of this movie.
Thor saw a vision of Ragnarok. All you need to know is the name "Thor" itself in order to get that. It shocked him to his core and explains his abrupt exit at the end of the movie, and perhaps from the team itself.
>> Tell me why Nick Fury or Maria Hill were essential to the story.
Who said every character needs to be essential in every story?
>> When Maria Hill tells the story of Ultron to her grandchildren, how will she say these events changed her life? How will she say she felt about her friend Tony’s choice to build a genocide-bot? Did she feel anything? Or was she just, you know, there?
Do you ask these questions about every character in every movie you see? You must be a real hit at parties.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:51 PM on May 10, 2015 [59 favorites]
I love her two very different readings out of the Hulk-Loki scene at the end of Avengers, and wish more people were capable of that; sometimes I think that part of the solution to readings that do harm to people includes alternative readings of the same text that don't.
posted by weston at 7:54 PM on May 10, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by weston at 7:54 PM on May 10, 2015 [21 favorites]
This string of Marvel Studios films is the first time I've truly felt the zeitgeist slipping away from me. I feel like an old man trying to use Twitter as a phone or something. They have no halfway-interesting narrative content, no emotional content, no stakes, no reason to care about anything or anyone. They're not about anything. (Only exceptions: the first IRON MAN, which gave a shit about its main character, and GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, which seemed to stand apart from the rest of this crappy universe and so was free to breathe and be clever and funny as its own movie.)
It's not even a grouchy "get off my lawn" thing - I'm just baffled. We've gone from Sam Raimi's two pop masterpieces to this interminable self-perpetuating nonsense and everyone seems happy as a clam.
posted by eugenen at 7:58 PM on May 10, 2015 [53 favorites]
It's not even a grouchy "get off my lawn" thing - I'm just baffled. We've gone from Sam Raimi's two pop masterpieces to this interminable self-perpetuating nonsense and everyone seems happy as a clam.
posted by eugenen at 7:58 PM on May 10, 2015 [53 favorites]
I dunno, I gave the flick about a solid B to B-Plus. If she had problems with, well, everything, then she certainly should never, ever check out the source material!
posted by TDavis at 7:58 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by TDavis at 7:58 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I like two of these movies a lot (Guardians and Avengers 1), tolerate a few others, and actively hate many. Watching Avengers 2 was unpleasant. It was a movie that felt written by contract. Awful, bland, and without any sort of cinematic merit. It was a chore to watch in a way that few other movies I've sat through have ever been. I'd put it just a little bit above Transformers 1. This is a great explanation of why I felt that way.
posted by codacorolla at 7:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 7:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Character arcs aren’t negotiable. They’re not highbrow or pretentious or complicated. Character arcs are essential to the success of any story in any genre
Nope. Not actually true. An argument against the necessity of character arcs can be found here and it's pretty good.
Another argument against it is the raging success of other franchise characters: James Bond franchise up to but not including Daniel Craig; Sherlock Holmes; Superman. This doesn't just apply to popcorn crap, either. As long as the story itself moves and evolves for the audience, the means by which it happens are negotiable.
You absolutely can tell successful stories lacking protagonist or even character arcs. They're just different, is all.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 8:00 PM on May 10, 2015 [33 favorites]
Nope. Not actually true. An argument against the necessity of character arcs can be found here and it's pretty good.
Another argument against it is the raging success of other franchise characters: James Bond franchise up to but not including Daniel Craig; Sherlock Holmes; Superman. This doesn't just apply to popcorn crap, either. As long as the story itself moves and evolves for the audience, the means by which it happens are negotiable.
You absolutely can tell successful stories lacking protagonist or even character arcs. They're just different, is all.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 8:00 PM on May 10, 2015 [33 favorites]
In my mind, Avengers 2 is Batman Forever. And we all know what happened after that one.
posted by Behemoth at 8:02 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by Behemoth at 8:02 PM on May 10, 2015
Ah, there is is: more Marvel backlash. I'm not sure which is more predictable: that the franchise would stumble, or that someone would point it out and call themselves clever.
posted by uberchet at 8:02 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 8:02 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm definitely not going to read a the stupid hulk film critic gimmick, but when you have a character ensemble movie, then you better have character arcs for those characters. It's a movie about the Avengers. The movie fails at doing the thing that it's centrally about. In fact, in direct comparison to the first Avengers movie (which is entirely about character progression in the face of an existential threat), this movie falls even flatter.
posted by codacorolla at 8:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also the answer to the oncoming marvel cinematic malaise is totally a squirrel girl movie. Also maybe a damage control TV series.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [19 favorites]
Ah, there is is: more Marvel backlash. I'm not sure which is more predictable: that the franchise would stumble, or that someone would point it out and call themselves clever.
I'm not sure why it seems so awful to call a franshise out when it does stumble; otherwise, we really do become the audience mocked in the SNL skit where Marvel is just going to throw together, like, a bunch of random people from a public bus and still expect us to see it in IMAX.
posted by TwoStride at 8:06 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure why it seems so awful to call a franshise out when it does stumble; otherwise, we really do become the audience mocked in the SNL skit where Marvel is just going to throw together, like, a bunch of random people from a public bus and still expect us to see it in IMAX.
posted by TwoStride at 8:06 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Damage Control as a series would be completely awesome.
Oh, and the running joke with Captain America and cussing in AoU does get a payoff, but it's quick and doesn't require Rogers dropping an F-bomb. It was one of the things I was actually impressed by.
posted by Spatch at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh, and the running joke with Captain America and cussing in AoU does get a payoff, but it's quick and doesn't require Rogers dropping an F-bomb. It was one of the things I was actually impressed by.
posted by Spatch at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I disagree with Sady Doyle that Avengers: Age of Ultron was a bad popcorn movie.
With all due respect, it was a FANTASTIC popcorn movie. Not the best, not top 10, but solid fun. The phrase "well wrought" comes to mind.
However, Doyle's points—that the character development is eviscerated on the altar of Marvel superhero plot formula, that women are constituted within a retrograde patriarchal heteronormative framework, and that the film cheats viewers of plot developments with easy throwaway exposition—are excellent ones, and when they are used as criteria to judge the film, Avengers: Age of Ultron doesn't measure up very well.
After reading Doyle's critique and disregarding whether a film with so many non-supernumerary (a long-winded way of saying "crucial") characters can address the shortcomings Doyle enumerates and still be a popcorn film, I was convinced there probably is an even better Avengers film inside Avengers: Age of Ultron.
But that's not necessarily a knock against Avengers: Age of Ultron, and that better film may one day come.
Personally, I tend to agree with what Cool Papa Bell says about the film and the effects of serialization on the cinematic form. The things for which Doyle calls out Whedon/Marvel are actually features (not necessarily bugs) of serialized drama.
posted by mistersquid at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
With all due respect, it was a FANTASTIC popcorn movie. Not the best, not top 10, but solid fun. The phrase "well wrought" comes to mind.
However, Doyle's points—that the character development is eviscerated on the altar of Marvel superhero plot formula, that women are constituted within a retrograde patriarchal heteronormative framework, and that the film cheats viewers of plot developments with easy throwaway exposition—are excellent ones, and when they are used as criteria to judge the film, Avengers: Age of Ultron doesn't measure up very well.
After reading Doyle's critique and disregarding whether a film with so many non-supernumerary (a long-winded way of saying "crucial") characters can address the shortcomings Doyle enumerates and still be a popcorn film, I was convinced there probably is an even better Avengers film inside Avengers: Age of Ultron.
But that's not necessarily a knock against Avengers: Age of Ultron, and that better film may one day come.
Personally, I tend to agree with what Cool Papa Bell says about the film and the effects of serialization on the cinematic form. The things for which Doyle calls out Whedon/Marvel are actually features (not necessarily bugs) of serialized drama.
posted by mistersquid at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Age of Ultron is the worst film of all time.
All Films are the Worst of All time.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen.
I don't enjoy anything anymore.
posted by hellojed at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [40 favorites]
All Films are the Worst of All time.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen.
I don't enjoy anything anymore.
posted by hellojed at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [40 favorites]
Codacorolla, rating it slightly above Transformers is like rating it somewhere between the half-eaten mangled corpse your cat left on the back porch and the lingering regret you feel at a lifetime of missed opportunities.
posted by triage_lazarus at 8:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
Who even watches movies. I'm in to vintage zoetropes now. I saw one yesterday that really reinforced strong character development, it was a major plot point.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 8:12 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 8:12 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well, it's shit, but at least it didn't have wisecracking Optimus Prime in... in i... huh... ok, maybe it's tied with Transformers 1.
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like an ensemble movie not being a trainwreck is almost impossible. Too busy namechecking to develop characters. I also feel that way about SNL whenever they have a five time host club.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:16 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:16 PM on May 10, 2015
The solution to the various "Blahblah Hulk" writers: the Dehulkifier. And I'm in agreement with Cool Papa Bell and mistersquid. There was more character development than comments here or Doyle are giving it credit for. It was definitely overstuffed, though. Cap's arc also involved him shutting the door on the person he was, the anger and pain he felt from that, and embracing his new reality. It was him dealing with his time-travel issues in a way that neither of his personal films have explored much. Is it crazy deep? Does it have as much resonance as Banner's arc from the first one? The answer to both is no, but there was still an arc there.
posted by protocoach at 8:18 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by protocoach at 8:18 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I love stupid popcorn movies. I do. I believe they can be emotionally resonant, mythic, that they can do the same thing all stories are meant to do — speak to the soul; challenge us to be more and better than we were — and can use big, fantastic elements to tell big, human truths.
A movie that is emotionally resonant, mythic, speaks to the soul, challenges us, and tells big human truths is sort of the opposite of a "stupid" movie. You want a stupid movie based on a Marvel character? Okay: Howard the Duck was a stupid movie.
My SO and I went and saw AoU for the first time last night. We had popcorn. Somehow, despite the odds and the imminent "end of the world," we both enjoyed it. This was no Howard the Duck. When they make another Howard the Duck movie, I'm out. (And I admit I am frightened about that possibility after the end credits of GotG.)
posted by tempestuoso at 8:18 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
A movie that is emotionally resonant, mythic, speaks to the soul, challenges us, and tells big human truths is sort of the opposite of a "stupid" movie. You want a stupid movie based on a Marvel character? Okay: Howard the Duck was a stupid movie.
My SO and I went and saw AoU for the first time last night. We had popcorn. Somehow, despite the odds and the imminent "end of the world," we both enjoyed it. This was no Howard the Duck. When they make another Howard the Duck movie, I'm out. (And I admit I am frightened about that possibility after the end credits of GotG.)
posted by tempestuoso at 8:18 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know. I just got home from seeing the film, and it was all I expected out of a summer movie, albeit with a side of pure rage at the Black Widow "monster" line.
But some of the things she doesn't like just seem part of the comic book narrative package: multiple storylines, punching rather than talk, character development taking a backseat to overall plot mechanics, relatively flat characters who are more archetypes than recognizable human beings. Maybe because I know a lot of the source material, I get a little extra entertainment through comparing how the films interpret or change the original stories. And I think Marvel has been somewhat successful in casting appealing actors who can be perfectly enjoyable with very little to work with besides good genes and special effects.
I am tired of the bloodless carnage that the PG-13 gods demand (robots are the perfect ethical slaughter fodder - I was reminded of mowing down endless waves of husks in the last Mass Effect game), and I can't remember the last time I was surprised by any narrative arc in a mainstream movie. I don't know how long Marvel can juggle all this intertextuality before it all comes crashing down. And I really wish someone in Hollywood would write a new story, if only to give the next generation something to remake (I'm hoping for an all-male reboot of Steel Magnolias, myself).
But I just got the feeling that she wanted a different sort of movie than the big-budget superhero film. I agree with her criticisms, but I didn't expect anything different, and I'm not sure, given the overall state of popular cinema, that there was much to ruin in the first place.
posted by bibliowench at 8:20 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
But some of the things she doesn't like just seem part of the comic book narrative package: multiple storylines, punching rather than talk, character development taking a backseat to overall plot mechanics, relatively flat characters who are more archetypes than recognizable human beings. Maybe because I know a lot of the source material, I get a little extra entertainment through comparing how the films interpret or change the original stories. And I think Marvel has been somewhat successful in casting appealing actors who can be perfectly enjoyable with very little to work with besides good genes and special effects.
I am tired of the bloodless carnage that the PG-13 gods demand (robots are the perfect ethical slaughter fodder - I was reminded of mowing down endless waves of husks in the last Mass Effect game), and I can't remember the last time I was surprised by any narrative arc in a mainstream movie. I don't know how long Marvel can juggle all this intertextuality before it all comes crashing down. And I really wish someone in Hollywood would write a new story, if only to give the next generation something to remake (I'm hoping for an all-male reboot of Steel Magnolias, myself).
But I just got the feeling that she wanted a different sort of movie than the big-budget superhero film. I agree with her criticisms, but I didn't expect anything different, and I'm not sure, given the overall state of popular cinema, that there was much to ruin in the first place.
posted by bibliowench at 8:20 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is super surprising to me, too, but the current Howard the Duck comic is actually pretty good. If they made a movie that was on par with the comic, I'd be pretty happy.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:21 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:21 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
This boils down to the movie not working for the author, so she rants about it, getting numerous details wrong and what the fuck, can't anyone post a decent review?
I liked the film (though admit it was stuffed), it's ok if you didn't but the hyperbole and ranting is ridiculous.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I liked the film (though admit it was stuffed), it's ok if you didn't but the hyperbole and ranting is ridiculous.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I agree, A2 was fun, but oddly flat. Placeholder is the right word.
Looking back, A1 was a much tighter movie, with more clearly defined character arcs, even though it had almost as many folks running around.
A lot of that appeal came from Tom Hiddleston's Loki, who added a layer of self-conscious we-all-know-this-is-kind-of-ridiculous-right to the normal sneering-preening-evil, without undermining it somehow.
It's hard to get invested in the desires of a sentient robot, even one as weirdly emotive as Ultron. (Did he really say "For the love of god" when Hulk yanked him out of that spaceship?)
posted by gottabefunky at 8:24 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Looking back, A1 was a much tighter movie, with more clearly defined character arcs, even though it had almost as many folks running around.
A lot of that appeal came from Tom Hiddleston's Loki, who added a layer of self-conscious we-all-know-this-is-kind-of-ridiculous-right to the normal sneering-preening-evil, without undermining it somehow.
It's hard to get invested in the desires of a sentient robot, even one as weirdly emotive as Ultron. (Did he really say "For the love of god" when Hulk yanked him out of that spaceship?)
posted by gottabefunky at 8:24 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
In my mind, Avengers 2 is Batman Forever.
was that the nipplesuit one? i can't agree or disagree until i know about the presence or absence of nipplesuit.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
was that the nipplesuit one? i can't agree or disagree until i know about the presence or absence of nipplesuit.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
also it's written by the guy who wrote Prometheus and directed by the guy who did the Sinister. you could not come up with a more by-committee movie (although I can actually get behind that last one; I think going in a horror-movie direction makes sense and Derrickson made found-footage feel a lot fresher and scarier than anyone has in a while, so I can see him being a good fit.)
alternate star/director/writer combinations:
John Cho/Guillermo del Toro/Drew Goddard
Cillian Murphy/Steven Soderbergh/a Ouija board possessed by Philip K Dick
Pedro Pascal/Richard Linklater/Richard Linklater
Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog
posted by kagredon at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
alternate star/director/writer combinations:
John Cho/Guillermo del Toro/Drew Goddard
Cillian Murphy/Steven Soderbergh/a Ouija board possessed by Philip K Dick
Pedro Pascal/Richard Linklater/Richard Linklater
Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog
posted by kagredon at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Re: Howard the Duck movie, no. Movies can be "stupid" in a way that actually makes some kind of human sense or has a certain human logic, and these fucking Avengers movies are destroying the meaning of "fun" for me too. Gahhh fuck you, Whedon. How many years since you've been a "feminist" now?
posted by easter queen at 8:27 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 8:27 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ultron (spellcheck tries to change that to ultranationalist) was ridiculous, but it weren't no Peter Parker with the jazz hands. we all know that it can get a lot worse.
posted by triage_lazarus at 8:29 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 8:29 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's hard to get invested in the desires of a sentient robot, even one as weirdly emotive as Ultron. (Did he really say "For the love of god" when Hulk yanked him out of that spaceship?)
I thought it was "For the love of... [cutoff]", and a nod to RDJ's Tony Stark mannerisms; he's got a lot of little exasperated tics like that and I thought that was one of the moments where his influence showed up in Ultron. I actually liked how they played up Ultron's psuedo-Oedipal complex with little stuff like that. Spader was essentially playing him as Tony Stark's angry teenager lashing out at the world.
posted by protocoach at 8:30 PM on May 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
I thought it was "For the love of... [cutoff]", and a nod to RDJ's Tony Stark mannerisms; he's got a lot of little exasperated tics like that and I thought that was one of the moments where his influence showed up in Ultron. I actually liked how they played up Ultron's psuedo-Oedipal complex with little stuff like that. Spader was essentially playing him as Tony Stark's angry teenager lashing out at the world.
posted by protocoach at 8:30 PM on May 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
I thought she made some good points there, but there's something deeply tedious about the format of a "I love dumb popcorn movies! Love them!" prologue followed by even a well-crafted argument that such films would be better if they were smarter and accompanied healthier fare. Which is more or less what this is.
Gahhh fuck you, Whedon. How many years since you've been a "feminist" now?
I think one of the writer's better points was that Whedon has never necessarily been so much a feminist as a man who knows how to write good characters and who just sort of does it for female characters as well (usually).
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:31 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Gahhh fuck you, Whedon. How many years since you've been a "feminist" now?
I think one of the writer's better points was that Whedon has never necessarily been so much a feminist as a man who knows how to write good characters and who just sort of does it for female characters as well (usually).
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:31 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also I want ant-man to be EO Wilson voiceover narrating the activities of an actual ant having actual ant adventures amidst scenes from extant MCU film canon
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 PM on May 10, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:31 PM on May 10, 2015 [24 favorites]
It's hard to get invested in the desires of a sentient robot, even one as weirdly emotive as Ultron.
The movie is a lot more fun if you pretend that it's an AU sequel to Less Than Zero.
posted by bibliowench at 8:32 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
The movie is a lot more fun if you pretend that it's an AU sequel to Less Than Zero.
posted by bibliowench at 8:32 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
also Alexander Siddig or Raul Esparza and Jennifer Kent (The Babadook) or the dudes who did Resolution
posted by kagredon at 8:35 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by kagredon at 8:35 PM on May 10, 2015
The main criticism from the man-children over at RedLetterMedia is that these formulaic blockbusters get longer and longer for no other reason than to one-up the previous blockbuster, and this one's just too long and has too much stuff in it, even though the stuff that's in it is basically fine.
I have never seen any of these movies, but that critique lines up with my general "Ugh, movies are way too fucking long these days" worldview. If Citizen Kane can manage to run less than two hours, there's no reason whatsoever that Several People in Several Leotards Fight a Bad Guy Because He's Bad can't.
>>In my mind, Avengers 2 is Batman Forever.
>was that the nipplesuit one? i can't agree or disagree until i know about the presence or absence of nipplesuit
That was Batman & Robin, the movie that only exists to make this subsequent deluge of superhero shlock seem uncrappy by comparison.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:36 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have never seen any of these movies, but that critique lines up with my general "Ugh, movies are way too fucking long these days" worldview. If Citizen Kane can manage to run less than two hours, there's no reason whatsoever that Several People in Several Leotards Fight a Bad Guy Because He's Bad can't.
>>In my mind, Avengers 2 is Batman Forever.
>was that the nipplesuit one? i can't agree or disagree until i know about the presence or absence of nipplesuit
That was Batman & Robin, the movie that only exists to make this subsequent deluge of superhero shlock seem uncrappy by comparison.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:36 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also I want ant-man to be EO Wilson voiceover narrating the activities of an actual ant having ant adventures amidst scenes from extant MCU film canon
This is my biggest goddamn problem with Ant-Man, the concept. I mean, you have all the world's ants at your beck and call, complete with pheromonal ant mind control, and you goddamn use it to make yourself really big in a fight? What the fuck is wrong with you! Ants are amazing! A bullet ant stings you once and you writhe in pain for 24 hours! A honey ant can store an abdomen full of honey and nutrients for months! Ants can domesticate other insects and fungi to do their bidding, or even "enslave" other species of ants, and ants are so badass that literally hundreds of species of other kinds of insects pretend to be ants for various purposes. Ants can travel through a forest and leave the whole place bare in their wake. They are voracious predators and peaceful herbivores and pretty much everything in between. They are terrifying enough in their numbers that not even large mammals will risk the wrath of a particularly aggressive colony--bullhorn acacia trees protected by ant symbiotes can survive where unprotected trees would be eaten to death by herbivores. An ant superhero could be amazing.
BUT NO, HIS POWER MOSTLY GETS USED TO MAKE HIM REALLY BIG OR REALLY SMALL. Unbe-fucking-lievable.
posted by sciatrix at 8:40 PM on May 10, 2015 [73 favorites]
This is my biggest goddamn problem with Ant-Man, the concept. I mean, you have all the world's ants at your beck and call, complete with pheromonal ant mind control, and you goddamn use it to make yourself really big in a fight? What the fuck is wrong with you! Ants are amazing! A bullet ant stings you once and you writhe in pain for 24 hours! A honey ant can store an abdomen full of honey and nutrients for months! Ants can domesticate other insects and fungi to do their bidding, or even "enslave" other species of ants, and ants are so badass that literally hundreds of species of other kinds of insects pretend to be ants for various purposes. Ants can travel through a forest and leave the whole place bare in their wake. They are voracious predators and peaceful herbivores and pretty much everything in between. They are terrifying enough in their numbers that not even large mammals will risk the wrath of a particularly aggressive colony--bullhorn acacia trees protected by ant symbiotes can survive where unprotected trees would be eaten to death by herbivores. An ant superhero could be amazing.
BUT NO, HIS POWER MOSTLY GETS USED TO MAKE HIM REALLY BIG OR REALLY SMALL. Unbe-fucking-lievable.
posted by sciatrix at 8:40 PM on May 10, 2015 [73 favorites]
Well written for a click bait anger article. Which is basically the internet version of the popcorn movie.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
Marvel made one not-as-good movie, therefore they will never make another good film again. This argument... it's ironclad!
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
I mean, you have all the world's ants at your beck and call, complete with pheromonal ant mind control, and you goddamn use it to make yourself really big in a fight? What the fuck is wrong with you! Ants are amazing!
The shrinking was the original thing! The communication with ants came as a result of Hank being fascinated with them after an anthill incident, and then there was a backlash/effort to get away from the whole ant-communication thing because I guess it it wasn't focused in enough on the original concept? COMICS.
it would've been cool if they'd taken a page from the CA:TFA playbook and made a 60s-era period piece about Hank and Jan
(I have a phobia of ants, so I am probably not seeing that one in theatres, because I'm going to have to pause and pour myself a pint of whiskey before watching parts that feature ants)
posted by kagredon at 8:53 PM on May 10, 2015
The shrinking was the original thing! The communication with ants came as a result of Hank being fascinated with them after an anthill incident, and then there was a backlash/effort to get away from the whole ant-communication thing because I guess it it wasn't focused in enough on the original concept? COMICS.
it would've been cool if they'd taken a page from the CA:TFA playbook and made a 60s-era period piece about Hank and Jan
(I have a phobia of ants, so I am probably not seeing that one in theatres, because I'm going to have to pause and pour myself a pint of whiskey before watching parts that feature ants)
posted by kagredon at 8:53 PM on May 10, 2015
I haven't seen Avengers 2 but I've seen the first one several times and you know what? Screw the Hulk. And doubly-screw Bruce Banner. The guy started out trying to build super-soldiers. He's basically Edward Teller, where does he get off lecturing Nick Fury for stockpiling super-weapons? Fuck you Banner you're just another failed bomb-maker. You deserve the fucking Hulk.
posted by um at 8:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by um at 8:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
OnTheLastCastle nailed it... perhaps the lowest hanging fruit is fan-boy click bait....
Gotta love that within the first few paragraphs of the article the author also drew in the DC universe fans/critics with her snark on Nolan and Snyder... Reminds me of that scene in Jaws when they're chumming off the stern of the Orca....
posted by HuronBob at 9:02 PM on May 10, 2015
Gotta love that within the first few paragraphs of the article the author also drew in the DC universe fans/critics with her snark on Nolan and Snyder... Reminds me of that scene in Jaws when they're chumming off the stern of the Orca....
posted by HuronBob at 9:02 PM on May 10, 2015
Well, I thought that had some good things to say and some things I disagreed with. But the one thing that's still bugging me: Is it wrong to imagine that Clint might have some input into naming the child? And that Clint especially might find some meaning in honoring the sacrifice of someone who gave his life to save his, thus ensuring that that child will get to know his father, and that he would have the opportunity to play a part in his son's life, and that this child might grow and be shaped into someone he might not have become had Pietro not made that sacrifice?
Is that okay, or would giving Clint some agency as a father, by maybe calling it their child for example, be all oppressive and patriarchal now? Because I really can't keep up.
posted by Naberius at 9:05 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Is that okay, or would giving Clint some agency as a father, by maybe calling it their child for example, be all oppressive and patriarchal now? Because I really can't keep up.
posted by Naberius at 9:05 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
This boils down to the movie not working for the author, so she rants about it, getting numerous details wrong and what the fuck, can't anyone post a decent review?
You know, I've seen multiple reviews of AoU where the reviewer is falling all over themselves to point out how they think the movie is bad, and they just get all kinds of basic factual stuff wrong, like they didn't even see the movie in the first place. In fact, a lot of their arguments that the movie is bad are based on things that either just aren't in the movie or are specifically the opposite of what actually happens in it (for example, the criticism that I've read a couple of times about Tony's retirement coming out of nowhere when in fact the entire plot of the film happens because, unlike Steve, Tony does not have the spirit for the eternal fight). I can't remember this being the case for other recent movies, although to be fair I don't read a ton of film criticism. Were critics generally shown a cut of the movie that's significantly different than the one released to theaters or something?
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:06 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
You know, I've seen multiple reviews of AoU where the reviewer is falling all over themselves to point out how they think the movie is bad, and they just get all kinds of basic factual stuff wrong, like they didn't even see the movie in the first place. In fact, a lot of their arguments that the movie is bad are based on things that either just aren't in the movie or are specifically the opposite of what actually happens in it (for example, the criticism that I've read a couple of times about Tony's retirement coming out of nowhere when in fact the entire plot of the film happens because, unlike Steve, Tony does not have the spirit for the eternal fight). I can't remember this being the case for other recent movies, although to be fair I don't read a ton of film criticism. Were critics generally shown a cut of the movie that's significantly different than the one released to theaters or something?
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:06 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
It'd be a tiny step up from Sherlock. Perhaps he'll go somewhere.
That's probably how it's going to be from now on, since people seem to eat it up!
See also, The Transformers? That statement is the only thing that makes any sense out of the popularity of the Transformers films. Is that still a thing that is eaten up?
but casting him as Strange was the most boring/safe/predictable choice possible
Wait, his being cast as Strange wasn't a joke? Man alive.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen
The upcoming documentary on Chad Kroeger of Nickelback will put a stop that.
I don't enjoy anything anymore.
Is Morrissey among us?
This argument... it's ironclad!
And the only effective way of combating it is very slow iron poisoning. The Erosion strategy.
posted by juiceCake at 9:10 PM on May 10, 2015
It'd be a tiny step up from Sherlock. Perhaps he'll go somewhere.
That's probably how it's going to be from now on, since people seem to eat it up!
See also, The Transformers? That statement is the only thing that makes any sense out of the popularity of the Transformers films. Is that still a thing that is eaten up?
but casting him as Strange was the most boring/safe/predictable choice possible
Wait, his being cast as Strange wasn't a joke? Man alive.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen
The upcoming documentary on Chad Kroeger of Nickelback will put a stop that.
I don't enjoy anything anymore.
Is Morrissey among us?
This argument... it's ironclad!
And the only effective way of combating it is very slow iron poisoning. The Erosion strategy.
posted by juiceCake at 9:10 PM on May 10, 2015
BUT NO, HIS POWER MOSTLY GETS USED TO MAKE HIM REALLY BIG OR REALLY SMALL.
Yeah and what's that about anyway? I have never seen an ant as big as a building. What's anty about being fifty meters tall? And why wouldn't you just be fifty meters tall all the time? Why is he called Ant-Man instead of Size-Changing Man? And you use your incredible powers as Ant-Man to just get small enough to ride an ant?
Ants: 1 Ant-Man: 0
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:16 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah and what's that about anyway? I have never seen an ant as big as a building. What's anty about being fifty meters tall? And why wouldn't you just be fifty meters tall all the time? Why is he called Ant-Man instead of Size-Changing Man? And you use your incredible powers as Ant-Man to just get small enough to ride an ant?
Ants: 1 Ant-Man: 0
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:16 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
it would've been cool if they'd taken a page from the CA:TFA playbook and made a 60s-era period piece about Hank and Jan
Little ditty, about Hank the Ant-Man
Just a dude who turns into an ant when he can
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:19 PM on May 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
Little ditty, about Hank the Ant-Man
Just a dude who turns into an ant when he can
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:19 PM on May 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
my dream casting for that movie btw is Vincent Kartheiser and Alison Brie basically playing the Campbells in the MCU, since no one asked
posted by kagredon at 9:25 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 9:25 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
When are they going to make a "Hagar the Horrible" movie? Huh, when?? WHEN??
posted by Chitownfats at 9:43 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 9:43 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why is he called Ant-Man instead of Size-Changing Man?
Hank Pym has at various times in his career been called Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Yellowjacket, Goliath, and the Wasp.
posted by straight at 9:43 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hank Pym has at various times in his career been called Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Yellowjacket, Goliath, and the Wasp.
posted by straight at 9:43 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen Avengers 2 yet, can anyone validate this metaphor for me?
Avengers : Lord of the Rings trilogy :: Avengers 2 : The Hobbit trilogy
posted by Apocryphon at 9:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Avengers : Lord of the Rings trilogy :: Avengers 2 : The Hobbit trilogy
posted by Apocryphon at 9:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
It's the vibe I'm hoping they get right - deeply weird, deeply trippy inter-dimensional shenanigans with lots of squiggly floating landmasses and half-nekkid demons...
posted by misterbee at 9:47 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
It's the vibe I'm hoping they get right - deeply weird, deeply trippy inter-dimensional shenanigans with lots of squiggly floating landmasses and half-nekkid demons...
posted by misterbee at 9:47 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought when I saw Guardians of the Galaxy that we were just past Peak Marvel and Age of Ultron confirmed my suspicions. Most of what the article said resonated for me: AoU was pretty to watch, but it was Extruded Superhero Film Product. And the formula (and the crossover problem) just doesn't do it for some of us.
I wish I believed in a $DEITY to pray to that the same thing won't happen to Star Wars.
posted by immlass at 9:49 PM on May 10, 2015
I wish I believed in a $DEITY to pray to that the same thing won't happen to Star Wars.
posted by immlass at 9:49 PM on May 10, 2015
Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
if you really insist on having a pale squinty Brit for your Strange, Cillian Murphy is 1000x more interesting, and John Cho blows both out of the water I mean c'mon.
posted by kagredon at 9:52 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
if you really insist on having a pale squinty Brit for your Strange, Cillian Murphy is 1000x more interesting, and John Cho blows both out of the water I mean c'mon.
posted by kagredon at 9:52 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
I wish I believed in a $DEITY to pray to that the same thing won't happen to Star Wars.
meesa have deity for you! come right deesa way!
posted by 7segment at 9:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
meesa have deity for you! come right deesa way!
posted by 7segment at 9:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
there has never been an MCU character arc for Tony Stark that would not have been improved by killing Tony Stark as consequences for his actions
I JUST WANT A RESCUE AND RHODEY SERIES SO MUCH
posted by NoraReed at 10:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I JUST WANT A RESCUE AND RHODEY SERIES SO MUCH
posted by NoraReed at 10:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
"This is super surprising to me, too, but the current Howard the Duck comic is actually pretty good. If they made a movie that was on par with the comic, I'd be pretty happy."
I'm pretty sure the Howard the Duck comics have always been good. That's kind of the quintessential example of a great comic being turned into a hideous movie, I think.
As far as Age of Ultron goes - it's a comic book movie, and a mass-market Marvel comic book movie to boot. Did anybody really expect fantastic, wonderful things? I mean, seriously - I watched the first Avengers movie the night before I saw AoU, just so I'd be up to speed, and they seemed to be on about the same level as far as I could tell - fun, entertaining, I don't regret buying the ticket, but I'm not taking them too seriously either. I guess this woman has a metric for "good popcorn movie" that eludes me. I can't avoid the sense, however, that anyone looking for something sublime or earth-shattering in these movies is going to be disappointed.
posted by koeselitz at 10:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the Howard the Duck comics have always been good. That's kind of the quintessential example of a great comic being turned into a hideous movie, I think.
As far as Age of Ultron goes - it's a comic book movie, and a mass-market Marvel comic book movie to boot. Did anybody really expect fantastic, wonderful things? I mean, seriously - I watched the first Avengers movie the night before I saw AoU, just so I'd be up to speed, and they seemed to be on about the same level as far as I could tell - fun, entertaining, I don't regret buying the ticket, but I'm not taking them too seriously either. I guess this woman has a metric for "good popcorn movie" that eludes me. I can't avoid the sense, however, that anyone looking for something sublime or earth-shattering in these movies is going to be disappointed.
posted by koeselitz at 10:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Explodies? check.
Good pacing? check.
Scarlett Johansson? check.
Surprisingly decent subplot that makes Jeremy Renner less awful than expected? check.
It's a summer blockbuster, not King Lear. I assume that any explody bit of fluff nonsense will be savaged by the critics.
It was not the greatest film ever and I suspect it does not spell the end of the cinematic art form. That, after all, is the job of Matthew Barney.
posted by evilDoug at 10:02 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Good pacing? check.
Scarlett Johansson? check.
Surprisingly decent subplot that makes Jeremy Renner less awful than expected? check.
It's a summer blockbuster, not King Lear. I assume that any explody bit of fluff nonsense will be savaged by the critics.
It was not the greatest film ever and I suspect it does not spell the end of the cinematic art form. That, after all, is the job of Matthew Barney.
posted by evilDoug at 10:02 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Sady Doyle is an excellent feminist pop culture critic who writes a lot of really interesting things; this isn't just some movie critic panning something for being fluff. She's been writing about Whedon stuff in particularly really interestingly and cogently for ages.
posted by NoraReed at 10:04 PM on May 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 10:04 PM on May 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
I was really hoping for Alexander Siddig, but that's neither here nor there. Benedict Cumberbatch tends to play the same sort of arrogant dude over and over again (except when he's playing an arrogant dragon I guess), and it's a little tiring - if I've got to have another movie about an arrogant dude, I'd at least want it to be about a different type of arrogant dude.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:05 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I was really hoping for Alexander Siddig, but that's neither here nor there. Benedict Cumberbatch tends to play the same sort of arrogant dude over and over again (except when he's playing an arrogant dragon I guess), and it's a little tiring - if I've got to have another movie about an arrogant dude, I'd at least want it to be about a different type of arrogant dude.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:05 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
meesa have deity for you! come right deesa way!
That set of Star Wars suffered from a different set of blockbuster problems from the ones I fear for the new set. (The setup of the standalone movies like the Rogue stuff both excites me and terrifies me.)
posted by immlass at 10:06 PM on May 10, 2015
That set of Star Wars suffered from a different set of blockbuster problems from the ones I fear for the new set. (The setup of the standalone movies like the Rogue stuff both excites me and terrifies me.)
posted by immlass at 10:06 PM on May 10, 2015
there has never been an MCU character arc for Tony Stark that would not have been improved by killing Tony Stark as consequences for his actions
I don't know if you mean this as a joke, but it is absolutely 100% true, and not just in the movies.
posted by Sternmeyer at 10:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know if you mean this as a joke, but it is absolutely 100% true, and not just in the movies.
posted by Sternmeyer at 10:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
AoU was a mess if you go in expecting continuity of any kind from the previous three Marvel films, and even setting aside all the utterly inexcusable sexism and racism issues, that sort of thing is gonna infuriate a lot of people who care a whole lot. For all that Marvel is pushing the consistent-universe stuff, you'd think they wouldn't have let that happen.
Personally speaking, though, things peaked with Iron Man 3. There have been other good ones and there will undoubtedly be other good ones, but no movie could ever possibly speak to my heart and soul the way that one did. A dark comedy about anxiety disorders and love and self-care? Tony being his spectacularly messy awful heartfelt self where select people/AIs can actually see him and help him and call him out when necessary? I mean, I might be optimistic or happy or mad about various other Marvel movies from here on out, but they made me my own personal custom superhero movie and at that point I'm not sure I'm allowed to complain about anything ever again.
posted by you're a kitty! at 10:10 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Personally speaking, though, things peaked with Iron Man 3. There have been other good ones and there will undoubtedly be other good ones, but no movie could ever possibly speak to my heart and soul the way that one did. A dark comedy about anxiety disorders and love and self-care? Tony being his spectacularly messy awful heartfelt self where select people/AIs can actually see him and help him and call him out when necessary? I mean, I might be optimistic or happy or mad about various other Marvel movies from here on out, but they made me my own personal custom superhero movie and at that point I'm not sure I'm allowed to complain about anything ever again.
posted by you're a kitty! at 10:10 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
Aidan Gillen
posted by Auden at 10:11 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
Aidan Gillen
posted by Auden at 10:11 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
I really don't get these "how can you criticize a summer blockbuster you're ruining fun" comments
like...no? that is part of the fun. And I am someone who is likely more invested in pulpy comic-book storytelling from marvel than the average bear. I depart from a lot of the fannish criticisms of aou for various idiosyncratic reasons (i was in the tank for Bruce/Natasha long before the film, I read the whole swearing thing as a joke on Steve's part) but I still enjoy/learn from reading good criticism and this was a particularly well-executed piece.
I guess if you don't enjoy criticism of a film you enjoyed, that's legit, but the dominant reaction I've seen from fandom on AOU is "Wow, there are things I liked and also things I really didn't" and it's been edifying and entertaining to watch people unpack what they like/didn't like and why.
posted by kagredon at 10:13 PM on May 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
like...no? that is part of the fun. And I am someone who is likely more invested in pulpy comic-book storytelling from marvel than the average bear. I depart from a lot of the fannish criticisms of aou for various idiosyncratic reasons (i was in the tank for Bruce/Natasha long before the film, I read the whole swearing thing as a joke on Steve's part) but I still enjoy/learn from reading good criticism and this was a particularly well-executed piece.
I guess if you don't enjoy criticism of a film you enjoyed, that's legit, but the dominant reaction I've seen from fandom on AOU is "Wow, there are things I liked and also things I really didn't" and it's been edifying and entertaining to watch people unpack what they like/didn't like and why.
posted by kagredon at 10:13 PM on May 10, 2015 [15 favorites]
I knew I wouldn't think much of her opinions when she said "Thor is a very bad movie."
I think she and many other critics of Avengers 2 are missing the whole point of the Avengers movies.
Marvel somehow made 3 superhero movies in a row that were better than most other superhero movies (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America) with 3 distinct, interesting, charismatic protagonists and one really good villain. Then they decided to take good stuff from all three movies, throw in a whole bunch more popular ideas and characters from their comics (and a bunch more fun actors: Samuel Jackson! Scarlett Johansson! Jeremy Renner! Mark Ruffalo! Clark Gregg!) and stuff it all into one giant movie.
And it worked! Partly because of the character stuff she praises Whedon for. But it was also because you had a cast stuffed with charming actors who'd had a chance to develop their characters in previous movies. And because it was one of the first comic book movies to really embrace the fact that they're sitting on 60 years of crazy ideas and characters and not be afraid to go ahead and tell a story using generous handfuls of toys from the toybox.
Avengers 2 is overstuffed because that's the whole point of making an Avengers movie in the first place. It's not a place to tell Tony's story or Steve's story or Thor's story. It's a place to watch characters from those stories get together and have some fun. It's an opportunity to take 3 or 4 movies' worth of movie stars and ideas and characters and cram them into one huge spectacle. Of course it's a mess. But I thought it was a really fun mess.
posted by straight at 10:14 PM on May 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
I think she and many other critics of Avengers 2 are missing the whole point of the Avengers movies.
Marvel somehow made 3 superhero movies in a row that were better than most other superhero movies (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America) with 3 distinct, interesting, charismatic protagonists and one really good villain. Then they decided to take good stuff from all three movies, throw in a whole bunch more popular ideas and characters from their comics (and a bunch more fun actors: Samuel Jackson! Scarlett Johansson! Jeremy Renner! Mark Ruffalo! Clark Gregg!) and stuff it all into one giant movie.
And it worked! Partly because of the character stuff she praises Whedon for. But it was also because you had a cast stuffed with charming actors who'd had a chance to develop their characters in previous movies. And because it was one of the first comic book movies to really embrace the fact that they're sitting on 60 years of crazy ideas and characters and not be afraid to go ahead and tell a story using generous handfuls of toys from the toybox.
Avengers 2 is overstuffed because that's the whole point of making an Avengers movie in the first place. It's not a place to tell Tony's story or Steve's story or Thor's story. It's a place to watch characters from those stories get together and have some fun. It's an opportunity to take 3 or 4 movies' worth of movie stars and ideas and characters and cram them into one huge spectacle. Of course it's a mess. But I thought it was a really fun mess.
posted by straight at 10:14 PM on May 10, 2015 [22 favorites]
Full disclosure: I've only seen the first Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy, and I loved both of them, but the weakest element of Guardians was the monumental stakes involved, so huge that they were unrelatable and kind of beyond even comprehension. You could have made that movie be all about escaping the prison and made it just as compelling, tighter, and still hinted at much bigger conflicts going on just out of view.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:16 PM on May 10, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 10:16 PM on May 10, 2015 [12 favorites]
A crossover weary audience is growing suspicious of the Avengers creative crew? Man, these movies really are just like the comics!
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:19 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:19 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sady Doyle is a good writer, Avengers AoU is not without its problems, and Joss Whedon is way overdue for a reassessment from some of his biggest apologists, but this is not that thing. I, too, started answering pretty much all the questions she asked about the individual characters as soon as she asked them.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:25 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:25 PM on May 10, 2015
(spoilers ahoy) "RESCUE AND RHODEY" - I would also accept Black Widow and Rhodey, assuming that we can walk back the Natasha backstory the way that we apparently walked back Tony Destroyed All the Suits. (I am surviving the BW storyline by assuming Natasha is devastated, just like a lot of other infertile women, and she means she's a monster because losing her fertility made full-time murderatin'-on-command an easier job, not because infertile women are any more monstrous than anyone else. This may be facile but I'm sticking with it until we see what they do with an Avengers team with two entire women, a doubling of the Avengers woman-count to date. I've already been compromising to deal with the sausagefest, here, is what I'm saying.)
Is anyone else a little worried about how thin Don Cheadle looked in the face? I mean, he's 50, sure, but so's Downey, who's lived pretty hard, and *he's* not looking all gaunt.
Uh, yeah, topic. Yeah, I respect Sady Doyle but I don't hold with the notion that any one megafranchise can destroy story in visual media. TV has never recovered from the writers' strike in '07-'08, which affected TV, cinema, and radio across the board. I really have to lay any death of story at the feet of the studios, which decided to try to hobble the writers by emphasizing material generated by non-writers. If you wonder why we just keep rehashing the same stories, maybe consider that executives decided screenwriting isn't important.
posted by gingerest at 10:34 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is anyone else a little worried about how thin Don Cheadle looked in the face? I mean, he's 50, sure, but so's Downey, who's lived pretty hard, and *he's* not looking all gaunt.
Uh, yeah, topic. Yeah, I respect Sady Doyle but I don't hold with the notion that any one megafranchise can destroy story in visual media. TV has never recovered from the writers' strike in '07-'08, which affected TV, cinema, and radio across the board. I really have to lay any death of story at the feet of the studios, which decided to try to hobble the writers by emphasizing material generated by non-writers. If you wonder why we just keep rehashing the same stories, maybe consider that executives decided screenwriting isn't important.
posted by gingerest at 10:34 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
You could have made that movie be all about escaping the prison and made it just as compelling, tighter, and still hinted at much bigger conflicts going on just out of view.
Here's hoping Green Arrow: Escape from Super Max still is in the works.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:35 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's hoping Green Arrow: Escape from Super Max still is in the works.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:35 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
kagredon: "I really don't get these 'how can you criticize a summer blockbuster you're ruining fun' comments"
Well - I am not other people, but my line would be more like "how can you criticize a summer blockbuster, because they are all uniformly terrible."
But - I hope I mixed some detachment in there, because apparently they aren't all terrible for some people. Some people saw a huge difference between Avengers and AoU. Those people apparently thought the first one was less sexist than the second, had better "payoffs" (as Doyle puts it) and better action etc. I am not one of those people, but that's fine.
Really, I guess for me this is more about me coming to terms with the fact that other people have different tastes than I do. In my world, "popcorn movies" have rarely been great. The last few years we've been living in the post-Michael Bay era. Furious 7 is looked at as a capstone on a work of staggering action-movie genius somehow; I feel like that's kind of weird, but I guess the movies could be more sexist, and they aren't as racist as movies once were, so I'm told I should probably put up with the stuff I don't like and enjoy them. I'd never seen any Marvel stuff until the last year, to be honest, so I'm sort of getting used to this world, but I haven't exactly been blown away, even if the material seems somewhat more culturally healthy than Furious 7 (at least as far as sexism goes). Then again there are problems, as there will be in movies predominantly about big strong huge awesome men who save the world. And I shared the objections people had to Black Widow's treatment in AoU. I cringed, too, during the "sterility made me an inhuman monster" speech. The difference was - I have never seen a Marvel movie where gender equity was handled well - I might not ever have seen an action movie where gender equity was treated well - so on my end it felt less like a letdown and more like a confirmation of stuff I probably already should have known.
Look, like I say, I'm probably not the guy people should go to for careful dissection of popcorn movies. I'm the guy who would much rather spend his Saturday watching Wim Wenders stuff. And lord knows Sady Doyle is an awesome writer who totally knows her stuff - her criticisms of AoU are dead on, in my opinion. I'm only wondering if this is a change, or just more of the same. Hasn't Marvel always made movies that were like this? I know I saw a few of the Iron Man movies, and they pretty thoroughly had the same problems. Am I missing some golden age of popcorn movies that happened without me realizing it?
And - lest anyone think I'm just trying to take Doyle down a notch - I'm more interested, frankly, in convincing people to stop caring whether Marvel gets it right. I've already gotten to the point where I'm not going to give them any more money for this stuff. We should be supporting people who clearly want to make movies that serve our cultural goals and make us better human beings - not begging Joss Whedon, who clearly didn't have much control here anyway, to convince the overlords pulling the puppet strings to come to some epiphany and decide to to right by the masses.
But - uh - yeah. That probably doesn't make me a majority voice here. So be it.
posted by koeselitz at 10:37 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well - I am not other people, but my line would be more like "how can you criticize a summer blockbuster, because they are all uniformly terrible."
But - I hope I mixed some detachment in there, because apparently they aren't all terrible for some people. Some people saw a huge difference between Avengers and AoU. Those people apparently thought the first one was less sexist than the second, had better "payoffs" (as Doyle puts it) and better action etc. I am not one of those people, but that's fine.
Really, I guess for me this is more about me coming to terms with the fact that other people have different tastes than I do. In my world, "popcorn movies" have rarely been great. The last few years we've been living in the post-Michael Bay era. Furious 7 is looked at as a capstone on a work of staggering action-movie genius somehow; I feel like that's kind of weird, but I guess the movies could be more sexist, and they aren't as racist as movies once were, so I'm told I should probably put up with the stuff I don't like and enjoy them. I'd never seen any Marvel stuff until the last year, to be honest, so I'm sort of getting used to this world, but I haven't exactly been blown away, even if the material seems somewhat more culturally healthy than Furious 7 (at least as far as sexism goes). Then again there are problems, as there will be in movies predominantly about big strong huge awesome men who save the world. And I shared the objections people had to Black Widow's treatment in AoU. I cringed, too, during the "sterility made me an inhuman monster" speech. The difference was - I have never seen a Marvel movie where gender equity was handled well - I might not ever have seen an action movie where gender equity was treated well - so on my end it felt less like a letdown and more like a confirmation of stuff I probably already should have known.
Look, like I say, I'm probably not the guy people should go to for careful dissection of popcorn movies. I'm the guy who would much rather spend his Saturday watching Wim Wenders stuff. And lord knows Sady Doyle is an awesome writer who totally knows her stuff - her criticisms of AoU are dead on, in my opinion. I'm only wondering if this is a change, or just more of the same. Hasn't Marvel always made movies that were like this? I know I saw a few of the Iron Man movies, and they pretty thoroughly had the same problems. Am I missing some golden age of popcorn movies that happened without me realizing it?
And - lest anyone think I'm just trying to take Doyle down a notch - I'm more interested, frankly, in convincing people to stop caring whether Marvel gets it right. I've already gotten to the point where I'm not going to give them any more money for this stuff. We should be supporting people who clearly want to make movies that serve our cultural goals and make us better human beings - not begging Joss Whedon, who clearly didn't have much control here anyway, to convince the overlords pulling the puppet strings to come to some epiphany and decide to to right by the masses.
But - uh - yeah. That probably doesn't make me a majority voice here. So be it.
posted by koeselitz at 10:37 PM on May 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
In order to keep up with the Avengers, you need to keep up with Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor, and in order to keep up with those, you should probably be watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., which will really help you keep up with Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, and Guardians of the Galaxy.Aww diddums.
My first Marvel comic was this one, which has more complexity and backstory hinted at on its cover than in the entirety of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and decades before Wikipedia plot summaries too.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:41 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I really don't get these "how can you criticize a summer blockbuster you're ruining fun" comments
like...no? that is part of the fun. And I am someone who is likely more invested in pulpy comic-book storytelling from marvel than the average bear.
Metafilter's userbase includes comic book-reading bears of discriminating taste because we are the best website
posted by clockzero at 10:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
like...no? that is part of the fun. And I am someone who is likely more invested in pulpy comic-book storytelling from marvel than the average bear.
Metafilter's userbase includes comic book-reading bears of discriminating taste because we are the best website
posted by clockzero at 10:44 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
The bottom line is all the top-grossing movies these days are written for 14 year old boys. And that makes me kinda sad.
posted by tunewell at 10:45 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by tunewell at 10:45 PM on May 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
(I am surviving the BW storyline by assuming Natasha is devastated, just like a lot of other infertile women, and she means she's a monster because losing her fertility made full-time murderatin'-on-command an easier job, not because infertile women are any more monstrous than anyone else.
It never occurred to me that the "monster" comment was in relation to being infertile. I thought it was quite clearly in relation to having been the kind of killer she was trained to be.
posted by rednikki at 10:45 PM on May 10, 2015 [29 favorites]
It never occurred to me that the "monster" comment was in relation to being infertile. I thought it was quite clearly in relation to having been the kind of killer she was trained to be.
posted by rednikki at 10:45 PM on May 10, 2015 [29 favorites]
I haven't seen Avengers 2 but I've seen the first one several times and you know what? Screw the Hulk. And doubly-screw Bruce Banner. The guy started out trying to build super-soldiers. He's basically Edward Teller, where does he get off lecturing Nick Fury for stockpiling super-weapons? Fuck you Banner you're just another failed bomb-maker. You deserve the fucking Hulk.
Where on earth did you get this? Ross specifically tells Blonsky that while Banner thought he was working with Gamma Rays to increase radiation resistance with people, Ross was using the project to try to recreate the super soldier serum. He explains that they never told Banner of the ulterior direction of the research because unlike them, he was a scientist, not a soldier.
So, Banner was working on research to help improve the human condition and was unwittingly used by the military industrial complex to help create a weapon—himself. How exactly is this like Teller?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
Where on earth did you get this? Ross specifically tells Blonsky that while Banner thought he was working with Gamma Rays to increase radiation resistance with people, Ross was using the project to try to recreate the super soldier serum. He explains that they never told Banner of the ulterior direction of the research because unlike them, he was a scientist, not a soldier.
So, Banner was working on research to help improve the human condition and was unwittingly used by the military industrial complex to help create a weapon—himself. How exactly is this like Teller?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [10 favorites]
The bottom line is all the top-grossing movies these days are written for 14 year old boys. And that makes me kinda sad.
So if you enjoyed it and you're not a 14 year old boy, you're an idiot.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
So if you enjoyed it and you're not a 14 year old boy, you're an idiot.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:49 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I thought this was a great essay. I loved this bit:
Speaking of heroes, here’s Joseph Campbell: “Atonement consists in no more than the abandonment of that self-generated double monster — the dragon thought to be God (superego) and the dragon thought to be Sin (repressed id).” When the superego’s judgment is no longer powerful enough to annihilate us (puny God) and the id is accepted by the ego without fear (I’m always angry), our wholeness is restored, our place in the cosmos is found, and we are free. It hits us so hard, all we can do is scream.
Man I've really felt this and I never knew how to articulate it. This is like having catharsis about reading an essay about catharsis.
The other points in the essay were just as valid. There's nothing wrong with low-brow summer fun, but they have to try a little. There has to be some effort made for it to work, and that's not asking too much. That's why people liked Princess Bride, Groundhog Day, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. Those movies, TV shows, etc where you can tell everyone who's working on it gives a shit about the project for its own sake and its own entertainment value and not as a means to another end, which is ultimately corporate profits.
posted by bleep at 10:51 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Speaking of heroes, here’s Joseph Campbell: “Atonement consists in no more than the abandonment of that self-generated double monster — the dragon thought to be God (superego) and the dragon thought to be Sin (repressed id).” When the superego’s judgment is no longer powerful enough to annihilate us (puny God) and the id is accepted by the ego without fear (I’m always angry), our wholeness is restored, our place in the cosmos is found, and we are free. It hits us so hard, all we can do is scream.
Man I've really felt this and I never knew how to articulate it. This is like having catharsis about reading an essay about catharsis.
The other points in the essay were just as valid. There's nothing wrong with low-brow summer fun, but they have to try a little. There has to be some effort made for it to work, and that's not asking too much. That's why people liked Princess Bride, Groundhog Day, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. Those movies, TV shows, etc where you can tell everyone who's working on it gives a shit about the project for its own sake and its own entertainment value and not as a means to another end, which is ultimately corporate profits.
posted by bleep at 10:51 PM on May 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I don't know if you mean this as a joke, but it is absolutely 100% true, and not just in the movies.
I am not joking at all. I have this alternate universe in my head in which he actually died in the first Avengers movie when he went through that hole in the sky and I think that would've been way more interesting, and it would've raised the stakes about character death in a way that killing Coulson and then bringing him back really, really didn't.
Oh and speaking of Damage Control, I really like that it seems the basis for Daredevil is, at least in part, "that first movie really fucked up Hell's Kitchen, and we're still dealing with it on the ground"; it isn't what the show revolves around but it obviously informed the world-building. I would absolutely love to see more small-screen stuff dealing with the long-term consequences of the damage that the Big MCU Events have.
posted by NoraReed at 10:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am not joking at all. I have this alternate universe in my head in which he actually died in the first Avengers movie when he went through that hole in the sky and I think that would've been way more interesting, and it would've raised the stakes about character death in a way that killing Coulson and then bringing him back really, really didn't.
Oh and speaking of Damage Control, I really like that it seems the basis for Daredevil is, at least in part, "that first movie really fucked up Hell's Kitchen, and we're still dealing with it on the ground"; it isn't what the show revolves around but it obviously informed the world-building. I would absolutely love to see more small-screen stuff dealing with the long-term consequences of the damage that the Big MCU Events have.
posted by NoraReed at 10:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Where on earth did you get this?
Steve: So, this Dr Banner was trying to replicate the serum that was used on me?
Coulson: A lot of people were. You were the world's first superhero. Banner thought gamma radiation might hold the key to unlocking Erskine's original formula.
posted by um at 11:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Steve: So, this Dr Banner was trying to replicate the serum that was used on me?
Coulson: A lot of people were. You were the world's first superhero. Banner thought gamma radiation might hold the key to unlocking Erskine's original formula.
posted by um at 11:01 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Daredevil show was the first MCU thing I've ever seen that I can say I really liked, honestly.
posted by koeselitz at 11:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 11:03 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
(I am surviving the BW storyline by assuming Natasha is devastated, just like a lot of other infertile women, and she means she's a monster because losing her fertility made full-time murderatin'-on-command an easier job, not because infertile women are any more monstrous than anyone else.
I read that as 'I've had things taken away from me, murdered hundreds of people had obscene genetic experiments done on me and so I'm a monster', and people are allowed have negative viewpoints of themselves in movies so other people can go 'No you are beautiful inside, you just don't like yourself much'. Hulk hates himself all the time, no one gets on his case if he thinks he's a monster just because he transforms into a giant monster and causes billions worth of property damage.
posted by Swandive at 11:06 PM on May 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Metafilter : I don't enjoy anything anymore.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:08 PM on May 10, 2015 [20 favorites]
I loved this piece. I had so many issues with Age of Ultron leaving the theater... and the more distance I got the larger all those issues loomed. From the BW stuff to the prima nocta joke, to the fact that all the Avengers spoke in the same tones and jokes...
Winter Soldier was about as great as a comic book movie gets for me. I enjoyed it so very much. And I know Whedon didn't, so there was always a good chance his movies weren't going to appeal to me nearly as much. I thought the first Avengers movie was pretty entertaining if not really very 'good' - only the zingers were truly memorable. AOU had way too MANY zingers, so that the humor became an obstacle to the storytelling.
Ultron's motivations rang false, Cap might as well have missed the movie, how can anyone work with Tony after this - he literally learned nothing - THor just goes missing in the middle for no good reason.
Whedon's decision around the Twins was terrible - lazy writers do the same thing whenever they get ahold of twins... (Weasley).
Even the CGI lacked the punch of WS's effects. The shield pinged around too much, that scene with the jeep with everyone leaping just looked ridiculous, the Hulk's jumps lacked impact.
It just failed on pretty much every level for me - maybe by being very much like a crossover comic.
I'm quite concerned Civil War is going to be crappy now too. They're up to a Cast Of Thousands approach. Winter Soldier's smaller cast allowed for character development for Black Widow, Cap, Sam - even Bucky, who only had what, six lines? I was invested in every character at the end of that movie - and you didn't even have to kill any 'to give it weight'. I hope not. For the past year I'd just considered Age of Ultron the dues I had to pay to get my Winter Soldier sequel. (Cap: TFA was basically a prequel).
posted by taterpie at 11:11 PM on May 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Winter Soldier was about as great as a comic book movie gets for me. I enjoyed it so very much. And I know Whedon didn't, so there was always a good chance his movies weren't going to appeal to me nearly as much. I thought the first Avengers movie was pretty entertaining if not really very 'good' - only the zingers were truly memorable. AOU had way too MANY zingers, so that the humor became an obstacle to the storytelling.
Ultron's motivations rang false, Cap might as well have missed the movie, how can anyone work with Tony after this - he literally learned nothing - THor just goes missing in the middle for no good reason.
Whedon's decision around the Twins was terrible - lazy writers do the same thing whenever they get ahold of twins... (Weasley).
Even the CGI lacked the punch of WS's effects. The shield pinged around too much, that scene with the jeep with everyone leaping just looked ridiculous, the Hulk's jumps lacked impact.
It just failed on pretty much every level for me - maybe by being very much like a crossover comic.
I'm quite concerned Civil War is going to be crappy now too. They're up to a Cast Of Thousands approach. Winter Soldier's smaller cast allowed for character development for Black Widow, Cap, Sam - even Bucky, who only had what, six lines? I was invested in every character at the end of that movie - and you didn't even have to kill any 'to give it weight'. I hope not. For the past year I'd just considered Age of Ultron the dues I had to pay to get my Winter Soldier sequel. (Cap: TFA was basically a prequel).
posted by taterpie at 11:11 PM on May 10, 2015 [11 favorites]
Thor 1 was a terrible movie. I guess everyone has blocked it out.
posted by Yowser at 11:14 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by Yowser at 11:14 PM on May 10, 2015
Well, shirtless Thor's abs are pretty mesmerizing... it's easy to overlook the terribleness of the film! (Plus, compared to Thor 2, Thor 1 improves in retrospect!)
posted by TwoStride at 11:16 PM on May 10, 2015
posted by TwoStride at 11:16 PM on May 10, 2015
Winter Soldier was about as great as a comic book movie gets for me. I enjoyed it so very much. And I know Whedon didn't
How do you know Whedon didn't like Winter Soldier? An interview? Where? (btw, I agree with you that Winter Soldier is one of the best comic book movies made, certainly the best of the Marvel films, which is why I'm so happy that the Russo brothers are taking over the franchise for the next two, as well as directing Civil War from a Christopher Markus screenplay once again.)
posted by Auden at 11:20 PM on May 10, 2015
How do you know Whedon didn't like Winter Soldier? An interview? Where? (btw, I agree with you that Winter Soldier is one of the best comic book movies made, certainly the best of the Marvel films, which is why I'm so happy that the Russo brothers are taking over the franchise for the next two, as well as directing Civil War from a Christopher Markus screenplay once again.)
posted by Auden at 11:20 PM on May 10, 2015
The Thor movies gave us Darcy, so everything else is forgiven.
posted by um at 11:22 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by um at 11:22 PM on May 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
There's not a single character in any Marvel movie as interesting and well-played as Loki in the first Thor movie, nor any relationship as interesting as the one between Thor and Loki. (Thor 1 also doesn't fit her alleged "Marvel movie formula" at all. Thor never loses a physical fight in that movie).
posted by straight at 11:23 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 11:23 PM on May 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm quite concerned Civil War is going to be crappy now too. They're up to a Cast Of Thousands approach.
Kinda hard to do the Civil War plot without having all the folks involved not be in the film. Of course, if the main thrust is purely Rogers versus Stark the rest can just be in the background and just cameo it. That'll work. After all, they had several cameos in AoU like Hayley Atwell and Stella Skaarsgard.
posted by linux at 11:30 PM on May 10, 2015
Kinda hard to do the Civil War plot without having all the folks involved not be in the film. Of course, if the main thrust is purely Rogers versus Stark the rest can just be in the background and just cameo it. That'll work. After all, they had several cameos in AoU like Hayley Atwell and Stella Skaarsgard.
posted by linux at 11:30 PM on May 10, 2015
Linux: I wanted more Cap, Widow, Sam, Bucky development. When they decided to bring in RDJ and he lobbied for much, much more screentime I'm thinking the fundamental movie changed. Now instead of something thoughtful regarding Bucky getting his memories back, it'll probably be more like the comic - 'here, hold this square thingie and now you're whole again! Have a gun and shoot some bad guys, and oh, become the latest love interest for Black Widow.' I thought the WS movie actually transcended Brubaker's Winter Soldier bringback, and I *really* liked that book so, take that as a big complement.
Auden: there was an interview a couple weeks ago where Whedon was bitterly grumping about 'Bucky was supposed to DIE.' He was also pretty unhappy that Coulson came back for AOS - he killed a character in AOU specifically because he felt if no one died, the movie lacked punch. None of our principals die in WS, yet the movie's emotionally resonant for a lot more people than Ultron was.
Ultron was just so painfully average.
posted by taterpie at 11:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Auden: there was an interview a couple weeks ago where Whedon was bitterly grumping about 'Bucky was supposed to DIE.' He was also pretty unhappy that Coulson came back for AOS - he killed a character in AOU specifically because he felt if no one died, the movie lacked punch. None of our principals die in WS, yet the movie's emotionally resonant for a lot more people than Ultron was.
Ultron was just so painfully average.
posted by taterpie at 11:46 PM on May 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Where on earth did you get this?
Steve: So, this Dr Banner was trying to replicate the serum that was used on me?
Coulson: A lot of people were. You were the world's first superhero. Banner thought gamma radiation might hold the key to unlocking Erskine's original formula.
posted by um
And you'd trust a single word out of Coulsen's mouth? Have you not watch S.H.I.E.L.D.? At least go look at the plot arch. That guy can't keep himself from lying. It's like a pathology with him. Hence why Nick Fury refused to let him die.
posted by daq at 11:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
Steve: So, this Dr Banner was trying to replicate the serum that was used on me?
Coulson: A lot of people were. You were the world's first superhero. Banner thought gamma radiation might hold the key to unlocking Erskine's original formula.
posted by um
And you'd trust a single word out of Coulsen's mouth? Have you not watch S.H.I.E.L.D.? At least go look at the plot arch. That guy can't keep himself from lying. It's like a pathology with him. Hence why Nick Fury refused to let him die.
posted by daq at 11:55 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
He was also pretty unhappy that Coulson came back for AOS - he killed a character in AOU specifically because he felt if no one died, the movie lacked punch. None of our principals die in WS, yet the movie's emotionally resonant for a lot more people than Ultron was.
although hyping "TONIGHT AN AVENGER DIES" and having it be a character who just joined up halfway through theissue movie is delightfully comicbooky.
Joss brought back Colossus, who was one of the more pointless noble deaths in recent Marvel history, so I think he's still got some positive revolving-door-superhero-heaven karma, though not much.
posted by kagredon at 11:56 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
although hyping "TONIGHT AN AVENGER DIES" and having it be a character who just joined up halfway through the
Joss brought back Colossus, who was one of the more pointless noble deaths in recent Marvel history, so I think he's still got some positive revolving-door-superhero-heaven karma, though not much.
posted by kagredon at 11:56 PM on May 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
> This is called "fun."
Oh yeah, that thing from Iron Man that the studio inexplicably forgot in all later films. I feel like they mislabeled the "references, fanservice and callbacks" box as "fun" and threw away the "fun" box by accident :(
posted by thedaniel at 11:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh yeah, that thing from Iron Man that the studio inexplicably forgot in all later films. I feel like they mislabeled the "references, fanservice and callbacks" box as "fun" and threw away the "fun" box by accident :(
posted by thedaniel at 11:59 PM on May 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
there was an interview a couple weeks ago where Whedon was bitterly grumping about 'Bucky was supposed to DIE.'
OK, I read that interview, and didn't get the impression that Whedon didn't like The Winter Soldier. I do know that Ed Brubaker was very happy with the way the movie turned out.
I'm still surprised by all the love that the first Avengers film gets, because I thought it was a made-for-TV looking mess of a movie, sloppy plot, flat, awkward and mostly boring. I thought it had many of the same plot flaws that, say, Serenity had, in terms of Whedon films. I laughed when Hulk took on Loki at Stark's pad, and when Hulk sucker-punched Thor... mostly I enjoyed the after credits shawarma scene, and that was about it.
posted by Auden at 12:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
OK, I read that interview, and didn't get the impression that Whedon didn't like The Winter Soldier. I do know that Ed Brubaker was very happy with the way the movie turned out.
I'm still surprised by all the love that the first Avengers film gets, because I thought it was a made-for-TV looking mess of a movie, sloppy plot, flat, awkward and mostly boring. I thought it had many of the same plot flaws that, say, Serenity had, in terms of Whedon films. I laughed when Hulk took on Loki at Stark's pad, and when Hulk sucker-punched Thor... mostly I enjoyed the after credits shawarma scene, and that was about it.
posted by Auden at 12:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
taterpie, I remain optimistic about Civil War developing Bucky, Sam and Steve. Natasha, not really and Tony is the antagonist, which could be cathartic.
It's Infinity War that I wonder how it will go, given you have Avengers, Guardians and possibly Inhumans in the mix, as well as Strange and maybe even the Defenders. Now THAT is a cast of thousands.
posted by linux at 12:11 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's Infinity War that I wonder how it will go, given you have Avengers, Guardians and possibly Inhumans in the mix, as well as Strange and maybe even the Defenders. Now THAT is a cast of thousands.
posted by linux at 12:11 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I would have rather watched a movie directly featuring the Marvel lawyers debating the finer points of being a mutant vs. being Inhuman with Fox lawyers. Comedy gold.
posted by benzenedream at 12:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 12:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [14 favorites]
I should maybe be even more clear: her anger at ALL the destructive things that have been done to her, with and without her consent, to turn her into a weapon, capstoned by her forced sterilization, is what makes her feel monstrous. Which she knows Banner can identify with - being mad at being turned into a violent monster is His Thing, after all. And that tension between "with and without consent" in weaponizing is a common problem among superheroes - Cap comes to mind immediately, as does Wolverine.
All that's in contrast with the railing that's going on about how disappointing it is that all Nat wanted to be was a mommy. I kind of wonder how many people with infertility the railers know, because it is a problem that tends to take over people's lives when they're first having trouble with conception or when they're diagnosed. Most people assume they're going to be parents someday and even if they don't, almost everyone wants a choice about it. It doesn't have to mean that a woman wants to be a mother, much less "only" a mother. (Which, after you've saved the world a few times, isn't anything you can be anyway - Natasha Romanoff's place in history can't be erased by her retirement. Well, not unless her retirement brings on another universe reboot.)
On preview, there's plenty of directorial sexism in movies, including the Marvel flicks. As I alluded to above, it's structural - the fact the ratio is at least 3:1 male:female among mutants and capes, and of course writers, producers, directors and even crew are heavily male-skewed. It's not a smart thing to be dismissive about.
posted by gingerest at 12:29 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
All that's in contrast with the railing that's going on about how disappointing it is that all Nat wanted to be was a mommy. I kind of wonder how many people with infertility the railers know, because it is a problem that tends to take over people's lives when they're first having trouble with conception or when they're diagnosed. Most people assume they're going to be parents someday and even if they don't, almost everyone wants a choice about it. It doesn't have to mean that a woman wants to be a mother, much less "only" a mother. (Which, after you've saved the world a few times, isn't anything you can be anyway - Natasha Romanoff's place in history can't be erased by her retirement. Well, not unless her retirement brings on another universe reboot.)
On preview, there's plenty of directorial sexism in movies, including the Marvel flicks. As I alluded to above, it's structural - the fact the ratio is at least 3:1 male:female among mutants and capes, and of course writers, producers, directors and even crew are heavily male-skewed. It's not a smart thing to be dismissive about.
posted by gingerest at 12:29 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would have rather watched a movie directly featuring the Marvel lawyers debating the finer points of being a mutant vs. being Inhuman with Fox lawyers. Comedy gold.
A friend of mine sent me a text saying "Best part of Avengers is when Elizabeth Olsen said 'No more mutants,' and Fox Studios disappeared."
I was expecting more stuff drawing a connection between the Maximoffs and the Terrigen Mists/development of powers as a nod to their roles in/after Decimation and as a set-up to Civil War, but that would've been even more plot in a movie that probably had too much of it.
(Still, how sweet would it have been to show Wanda seeing her hometown devastated by outside forces, again, and saying "no more" and awakening powers in all of the city's potentials to fight Ultron? SUPER SWEET THAT'S HOW MUCH)
posted by kagredon at 12:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
A friend of mine sent me a text saying "Best part of Avengers is when Elizabeth Olsen said 'No more mutants,' and Fox Studios disappeared."
I was expecting more stuff drawing a connection between the Maximoffs and the Terrigen Mists/development of powers as a nod to their roles in/after Decimation and as a set-up to Civil War, but that would've been even more plot in a movie that probably had too much of it.
(Still, how sweet would it have been to show Wanda seeing her hometown devastated by outside forces, again, and saying "no more" and awakening powers in all of the city's potentials to fight Ultron? SUPER SWEET THAT'S HOW MUCH)
posted by kagredon at 12:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
AGE OF ULTRON: Consequences, Legacies, Killer Robots
posted by brundlefly at 12:43 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 12:43 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fun ... oh yeah, that thing from Iron Man that the studio inexplicably forgot in all later films.
The first Iron Man was loose and fun and mostly improv. Then it made a babillion dollars so they decided the rest of these movies needed scripts. It's too bad because that Make It Up As We Go lightness of the first Iron Man tracked really well with the light, loose, We'll Fill In the Dialog Later approach Marvel took in creating its comics in the sixties. Now those characters are in babillion dollar movies so even their comics stories are decided on years in advance.
All of that said, I mostly liked Age of Ultron. (I didn't Winter Soldier like it, but come on.) I dug that it seemed to have as many rescues as fights. Barrel of Monkeys was the single best part of Iron Man 3. Throwing punches all day is fine when you're still working your way up as a pulp hero but real elite superheroes are in it for the rescues. I'm super bored with existential threats to the planet that gotta be punched to death - we know you ain't letting Ultron kill the planet you've got ten more movies planned on, dudes!
How is there no superhero disaster movie yet? Nevermind a supervillain, nevermind laying down a bunch of plot nodes for ten sequels - just a tight, simple story about mutants, demigods, science heroes and supersoldiers out there doing the job, working together and using the amazing powers that only they possess to do the impossible and prevent a natural disaster from becoming a tragedy. That movie coming up where the Rock wrestles an earthquake looks huge and tense and awesome and the Rock's only superpower is that he is the Rock!
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:50 AM on May 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
The first Iron Man was loose and fun and mostly improv. Then it made a babillion dollars so they decided the rest of these movies needed scripts. It's too bad because that Make It Up As We Go lightness of the first Iron Man tracked really well with the light, loose, We'll Fill In the Dialog Later approach Marvel took in creating its comics in the sixties. Now those characters are in babillion dollar movies so even their comics stories are decided on years in advance.
All of that said, I mostly liked Age of Ultron. (I didn't Winter Soldier like it, but come on.) I dug that it seemed to have as many rescues as fights. Barrel of Monkeys was the single best part of Iron Man 3. Throwing punches all day is fine when you're still working your way up as a pulp hero but real elite superheroes are in it for the rescues. I'm super bored with existential threats to the planet that gotta be punched to death - we know you ain't letting Ultron kill the planet you've got ten more movies planned on, dudes!
How is there no superhero disaster movie yet? Nevermind a supervillain, nevermind laying down a bunch of plot nodes for ten sequels - just a tight, simple story about mutants, demigods, science heroes and supersoldiers out there doing the job, working together and using the amazing powers that only they possess to do the impossible and prevent a natural disaster from becoming a tragedy. That movie coming up where the Rock wrestles an earthquake looks huge and tense and awesome and the Rock's only superpower is that he is the Rock!
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:50 AM on May 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
That's the only superpower he needs.
posted by brundlefly at 1:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 1:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think the reason there's no superhero disaster movie yet is that in a great disaster flick, the disaster itself always takes top billing, and nobody - not the director or writers, not the actor, not the audience - can cope with the superhero being upstaged. But if someone proves me wrong, I will be all over that shit. I love a disaster movie.
posted by gingerest at 1:01 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by gingerest at 1:01 AM on May 11, 2015
I think the reason there's no superhero disaster movie yet is that in a great disaster flick, the disaster itself always takes top billing, and nobody - not the director or writers, not the actor, not the audience - can cope with the superhero being upstaged. But if someone proves me wrong, I will be all over that shit. I love a disaster movie.
sounds like a pretty good pitch for Hulk 3 right here tbh
posted by kagredon at 1:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
sounds like a pretty good pitch for Hulk 3 right here tbh
posted by kagredon at 1:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bring on Batman: Cataclysm.
posted by taterpie at 1:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by taterpie at 1:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hm, disaster movie.
I'm reminded of the 1980s Captain Marvel graphic novel where he gets cancer and all of the brilliant superhero scientists - Mr. Fantastic, Beast, etc. - get together and try to come up with a cure but are unable to save him. How about an MCU movie where the superheroes face climate change and realize it's ultimately a problem of our alienated relationship with the natural world and each other, and discover they have no idea how to address that?
posted by johnabbe at 1:38 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm reminded of the 1980s Captain Marvel graphic novel where he gets cancer and all of the brilliant superhero scientists - Mr. Fantastic, Beast, etc. - get together and try to come up with a cure but are unable to save him. How about an MCU movie where the superheroes face climate change and realize it's ultimately a problem of our alienated relationship with the natural world and each other, and discover they have no idea how to address that?
posted by johnabbe at 1:38 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
The essential problem here is that the author (and many, many film writers) keep trying to treat these films as a separate entities or individual joined up franchises - if they as I do - look at them as what they are - film comics with all the benefits and weaknesses those have - or if we're sticking with the moving visual medium - television narratives on the big screen.
As is becoming increasingly obvious there is a single meta-narrative covering the whole series, the development of the Infinity gloves, the jewels and how Thanos is going to wield it. What we're getting and have been getting since Iron Man, is a series of episodes of a single series featuring different characters building up to those finale episodes, the Infinity Wars.
If you think about it in terms of Game of Thrones it makes better sense. If you assume the whole damn thing is like an episode of Game of Thrones, with different characters stories given prominence before shifting to somewhere else in the land or 'verse with whole movies instead of individual scenes.
Complaining there are too many characters in the Avengers is like complaining there are too many characters in an episode of Game of Thrones. Not everyone will have a line. Some of them won't have any effect on the narrative other than be there and do something cool or funny or comment on the action.
No film studio has quite had the balls to attempt anything like this and as with many, many new things in cinema (sound, colour, handheld camera work) there is push back from people who don't understand it or do understand it but don't like it. But you can't dismiss a whole thing just because it's doesn't fit within your own expectations.
posted by feelinglistless at 1:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
As is becoming increasingly obvious there is a single meta-narrative covering the whole series, the development of the Infinity gloves, the jewels and how Thanos is going to wield it. What we're getting and have been getting since Iron Man, is a series of episodes of a single series featuring different characters building up to those finale episodes, the Infinity Wars.
If you think about it in terms of Game of Thrones it makes better sense. If you assume the whole damn thing is like an episode of Game of Thrones, with different characters stories given prominence before shifting to somewhere else in the land or 'verse with whole movies instead of individual scenes.
Complaining there are too many characters in the Avengers is like complaining there are too many characters in an episode of Game of Thrones. Not everyone will have a line. Some of them won't have any effect on the narrative other than be there and do something cool or funny or comment on the action.
No film studio has quite had the balls to attempt anything like this and as with many, many new things in cinema (sound, colour, handheld camera work) there is push back from people who don't understand it or do understand it but don't like it. But you can't dismiss a whole thing just because it's doesn't fit within your own expectations.
posted by feelinglistless at 1:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
But is anyone actually invested in MCU Thanos? I mean, I kind of want to see Gamora get to punch him a few times because she's more than earned it, but that's it. None of our regular players other than Gamora has had any face time with him (I guess Loki might've implicitly had some, but none that actually got on screen) and other than acting as some kind of cosmic mob boss who lends out armies and wants the Infinity Gems because power, we have no real insight into what he does or what motivates him.
Cosmic world-destroying evil is the kind of plot that sounds cool in theory but tends to fall flat in practice. I'd much rather have a two-parter about shapeshifter imposter shenanigans or Hydra taking over the government or one of the Avengers' own turning on the team (too many instances to count but Disassembled and WWHulk(s) are obvious reference points) or even, in spite of my general loathing for all things Mark Millar, a two-part Civil War movie.
posted by kagredon at 2:21 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cosmic world-destroying evil is the kind of plot that sounds cool in theory but tends to fall flat in practice. I'd much rather have a two-parter about shapeshifter imposter shenanigans or Hydra taking over the government or one of the Avengers' own turning on the team (too many instances to count but Disassembled and WWHulk(s) are obvious reference points) or even, in spite of my general loathing for all things Mark Millar, a two-part Civil War movie.
posted by kagredon at 2:21 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want ant-man to be EO Wilson voiceover narrating the activities of an actual ant having actual ant adventures
Perhaps you jest, but there's a truly heroic story hidden in that premise, as described in this quote from E.O. Wilson & Bert Hölldobler excellent book Journey To The Ants (the introductory version of their Pulitzer Prize winning masterpiece: The Ants)...
"If all of humanity were to disappear, the remainder of life would spring back and flourish. The mass extinctions now under way would cease, the damaged ecosystems heal and expand outward. If all the ants somehow disappeared, the effect would be exactly the opposite, and catastrophic. Species extinction would increase even more over the present rate, and the land ecosystems would shrivel more rapidly as the considerable services provided by these insects were pulled away."
posted by fairmettle at 2:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Perhaps you jest, but there's a truly heroic story hidden in that premise, as described in this quote from E.O. Wilson & Bert Hölldobler excellent book Journey To The Ants (the introductory version of their Pulitzer Prize winning masterpiece: The Ants)...
"If all of humanity were to disappear, the remainder of life would spring back and flourish. The mass extinctions now under way would cease, the damaged ecosystems heal and expand outward. If all the ants somehow disappeared, the effect would be exactly the opposite, and catastrophic. Species extinction would increase even more over the present rate, and the land ecosystems would shrivel more rapidly as the considerable services provided by these insects were pulled away."
posted by fairmettle at 2:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
But is anyone actually invested in MCU Thanos?"
Usually, my strongest feeling about Thanos is "I wish you were Darkseid" but sure, it's awesome that's it's gonna take the Avengers two whole movies to fight Josh Brolin.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:41 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Usually, my strongest feeling about Thanos is "I wish you were Darkseid" but sure, it's awesome that's it's gonna take the Avengers two whole movies to fight Josh Brolin.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:41 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Daredevil show was the first MCU thing I've ever seen that I can say I really liked, honestly.
I wouldn't say that it's the only MCU thing that I like but it's the first one that I really love without a lot of reservations. It's the first one that doesn't feel like it's stitched together by Disney's marketing team to carefully cover all the demographics.
posted by octothorpe at 3:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't say that it's the only MCU thing that I like but it's the first one that I really love without a lot of reservations. It's the first one that doesn't feel like it's stitched together by Disney's marketing team to carefully cover all the demographics.
posted by octothorpe at 3:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I buy that every subsequent Marvel movie will be bad, since the two movies proceeding it are in my top three Marvel movies.
If they are rewarded at the box office, they will be.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 4:27 AM on May 11, 2015
If they are rewarded at the box office, they will be.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 4:27 AM on May 11, 2015
Stellan, you stupid autocorrect, you.
Stellan Skarsgård, even. Sarsgaard is someone else (and more of a Danish name with Dutch spelling).
(as for the movie spectacle, who has time for superheroes when Don Hertzfeldt's latest is out and is one of the best films of all time :-)
posted by effbot at 4:28 AM on May 11, 2015
Stellan Skarsgård, even. Sarsgaard is someone else (and more of a Danish name with Dutch spelling).
(as for the movie spectacle, who has time for superheroes when Don Hertzfeldt's latest is out and is one of the best films of all time :-)
posted by effbot at 4:28 AM on May 11, 2015
I liked Age of Ultron. I think it's a big dumb superhero movie with emphasis on the dumb, but I see little wrong with that. There's movies like Ex Machina with four characters to show how the Tony Stark/Pygmalion impulse might turn out to be weirdly cruel and creepy.
The review lost me at the slippery slope in the opening paragraphs, that a big dumb franchise portends the end of cinema as we know it. And sure, if you're a cinemaphile who only watches big dumb movies, that might be a problem. But we live in a culture that's economically and religiously anti-fun, so if AoU is the only movie you get to see this summer, you can do worse.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:33 AM on May 11, 2015
The review lost me at the slippery slope in the opening paragraphs, that a big dumb franchise portends the end of cinema as we know it. And sure, if you're a cinemaphile who only watches big dumb movies, that might be a problem. But we live in a culture that's economically and religiously anti-fun, so if AoU is the only movie you get to see this summer, you can do worse.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:33 AM on May 11, 2015
Daredevil also actually has some interesting fight scenes whereas the MCU battles, especially the act 3 ones, tend to be pretty action movie generic fights.
posted by octothorpe at 4:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's weird that popular consensus has moved television from mostly standalone episodes to almost exclusively highly serialized shows, while movie franchises seem to have gone in the opposite direction (mostly based on the fact that every movie now seems to be required to be based on comic-book superheroes).
posted by rikschell at 4:43 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by rikschell at 4:43 AM on May 11, 2015
I know that Sady Doyle is toast of the upper crust and a headliner of the society pages (and oh yes, she sees ghosts), but I can't say this article endeared me to her writing. Still, I enjoy her other Thrilling Adventures.
posted by painquale at 4:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by painquale at 4:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
movie franchises seem to have gone in the opposite direction (mostly based on the fact that every movie now seems to be required to be based on comic-book superheroes).
Well, no, one of the issues with the MCU is that they can't bear to make a stand-alone movie anymore. The one person who tried was Edgar Wright and it got him kicked off Ant-Man.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:51 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, no, one of the issues with the MCU is that they can't bear to make a stand-alone movie anymore. The one person who tried was Edgar Wright and it got him kicked off Ant-Man.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:51 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also liked Age Of Ultron. I think that most, if not all, of the complaints about it stem from it being basically the middle film of a trilogy with the first of the two-part finale not coming for another three years. It's a continuation, a half-finished story. That's what it was meant to be and I think it continues it well. I think The Avengers (Part 1) is the best superhero movie ever made and I think AoU picks it up and runs with it very well. Assuming the Infinity Wars movies are good, and I assume they will be, AoU will be viewed with more respect than it seems to be getting right now. We can revisit this discussion in 2019.
If I had to voice one single complaint about it would be about the dark color pallet. What's with that? It's not bleeping Batman. Oh well, I've already seen it twice and I intend to see it again while I still can in 3D.
posted by lordrunningclam at 4:59 AM on May 11, 2015
If I had to voice one single complaint about it would be about the dark color pallet. What's with that? It's not bleeping Batman. Oh well, I've already seen it twice and I intend to see it again while I still can in 3D.
posted by lordrunningclam at 4:59 AM on May 11, 2015
Daredevil also actually has some interesting fight scenes...
Very true. The choreography and cinematography on display in this scene , for example.
posted by jammy at 5:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Very true. The choreography and cinematography on display in this scene , for example.
posted by jammy at 5:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
dinty_moore: "Also the answer to the oncoming marvel cinematic malaise is totally a squirrel girl movie. Also maybe a damage control TV series."
Agreed on the first point.
HELLS YES! on the second.
posted by Samizdata at 5:03 AM on May 11, 2015
Agreed on the first point.
HELLS YES! on the second.
posted by Samizdata at 5:03 AM on May 11, 2015
hellojed: "Age of Ultron is the worst film of all time.
All Films are the Worst of All time.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen.
I don't enjoy anything anymore."
I hated your post too. Worst ever.
posted by Samizdata at 5:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
All Films are the Worst of All time.
Every time I see a film, it's the worst one I've ever seen.
I don't enjoy anything anymore."
I hated your post too. Worst ever.
posted by Samizdata at 5:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Everyone is expected to share power fantasies with nine-year-olds now, and worse than that, to take them seriously; to make them into a lifestyle.
This. I don't intend to see Age Of Ultron but I think my 2 choices given my geeky, comic-book-movie-loving group of friends are to either seem like a snob for refusing to go see it or reveal myself as a complete killjoy when they ask why I didn't like it. (Am I assuming prematurely that I will hate it? Yes, but I didn't like the first Avengers, and on the whole Marvel movies have been mostly misses for me-- I liked the first and third Iron Man, but neither of the Captain America movies really did anything for me and I still maintain that Thor wasn't a movie at all but a 90-minute trailer. At some point I have to cut my losses and declare that enough is enough, there are good movies out there I haven't seen and I should be watching them instead. Also $14.50 or whatever it is these days is a lot to pay for something you think you'll hate)
posted by matcha action at 5:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
This. I don't intend to see Age Of Ultron but I think my 2 choices given my geeky, comic-book-movie-loving group of friends are to either seem like a snob for refusing to go see it or reveal myself as a complete killjoy when they ask why I didn't like it. (Am I assuming prematurely that I will hate it? Yes, but I didn't like the first Avengers, and on the whole Marvel movies have been mostly misses for me-- I liked the first and third Iron Man, but neither of the Captain America movies really did anything for me and I still maintain that Thor wasn't a movie at all but a 90-minute trailer. At some point I have to cut my losses and declare that enough is enough, there are good movies out there I haven't seen and I should be watching them instead. Also $14.50 or whatever it is these days is a lot to pay for something you think you'll hate)
posted by matcha action at 5:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, and the people who say "Oh, it's the middle movie, of course it's not as good" are:
1) forgetting EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and
2) are the same people who told me, when I complained about the first Avengers movie, that it wasn't going to be as good as later ones because they had to do all the exposition stuff. These are the same people who've been telling me as I've been disappointed with one Marvel movie after another, "oh, well, they needed to get through a lot of exposition, but they're really setting up something great, just wait for Avengers!'
posted by matcha action at 5:20 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
1) forgetting EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and
2) are the same people who told me, when I complained about the first Avengers movie, that it wasn't going to be as good as later ones because they had to do all the exposition stuff. These are the same people who've been telling me as I've been disappointed with one Marvel movie after another, "oh, well, they needed to get through a lot of exposition, but they're really setting up something great, just wait for Avengers!'
posted by matcha action at 5:20 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
[...]GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, which seemed to stand apart from the rest of this crappy universe and so was free to breathe and be clever and funny as its own movie.)
And now the director says that "the tone will be different" for the Guardians 2. Because I guess if you have a movie that's well-received for being goofy and fun, you'd better change that right quick.
posted by amarynth at 5:21 AM on May 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
And now the director says that "the tone will be different" for the Guardians 2. Because I guess if you have a movie that's well-received for being goofy and fun, you'd better change that right quick.
posted by amarynth at 5:21 AM on May 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
I refute thee thusly: Benedict Cumberbatch as Doctor Strange.
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
I now want a Danny Trejo Dr. Strange movie with every ounce of my being.
MACHETE... INVOKES.
posted by delfin at 5:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
Exactly! Christ, how is that not great casting? Who are you preferring? Tom Cruise? Danny Trejo? Alec Baldwin? That dude who played the lead in all the Hal Hartley movies?
I now want a Danny Trejo Dr. Strange movie with every ounce of my being.
MACHETE... INVOKES.
posted by delfin at 5:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
Something else about AoU that I don't think has been mentioned here is that apparently quite a lot of the movie was cut, to decrease the running time and pack in more viewings. That could account for there being some confusion as to whether, for example, Natasha was referring to her being a monster as due to her having been turned into an assassination machine (my assumption, and that of a few other people), or to having been sterilized (lots of others).
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
the monumental stakes involved, so huge that they were unrelatable and kind of beyond even comprehension. You could have made that movie be all about escaping the prison and made it just as compelling, tighter, and still hinted at much bigger conflicts going on just out of view.
I've noticed this in a lot of movies over the past five or ten years, where the supposed stakes are raised incredibly high (nuclear annihilation! purest evil!) as if that would automatically provide weight and dramatic meaning, but instead emphasizes the story's weightlessness and total triviality. Movies like The Rover, where the stakes are much, much lower, work well because of that focus, not in spite of it. I am not a comic book movie fan, but I would love to watch a comic book movie that tightened its focus and dropped the silly big stakes.
Well, that and the terrible weightless CGI fight scenes. Just like with battling galactic evil, bad CGI sucks any potential drama out of the movie, leaving just the noise and the explosions.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've noticed this in a lot of movies over the past five or ten years, where the supposed stakes are raised incredibly high (nuclear annihilation! purest evil!) as if that would automatically provide weight and dramatic meaning, but instead emphasizes the story's weightlessness and total triviality. Movies like The Rover, where the stakes are much, much lower, work well because of that focus, not in spite of it. I am not a comic book movie fan, but I would love to watch a comic book movie that tightened its focus and dropped the silly big stakes.
Well, that and the terrible weightless CGI fight scenes. Just like with battling galactic evil, bad CGI sucks any potential drama out of the movie, leaving just the noise and the explosions.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I thought the movie was okay. It had some fun moments, just not as many or as fun as Guardians. It wasn't terribly thought-provoking, but then none of the Marvel movies have been or ever will be.
Some people just aren't happy unless they're miserable, so they decide that things suck.
posted by Foosnark at 5:37 AM on May 11, 2015
Some people just aren't happy unless they're miserable, so they decide that things suck.
posted by Foosnark at 5:37 AM on May 11, 2015
I do sort of want to see the Danny Trejo Dr. Strange movie, now that it has been put on the table.
posted by maxsparber at 5:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 5:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are some rumors running around that Marvel was terrified of GotG and scared that the tone would make it a huge flop. So, out of fear, they pressured Edgar Wright to take all the fun and whimsy out of Ant-Man, which is why he left. Now that GotG has hit it big, they're putting back in all the Edgar Wright scenes that they originally demanded he cut. But it's too late --- he's gone.
(This is probably an oversimplification at best, but it makes a good narrative.)
posted by painquale at 5:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
(This is probably an oversimplification at best, but it makes a good narrative.)
posted by painquale at 5:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also the answer to the oncoming marvel cinematic malaise is totally a squirrel girl movie.
I say do it as a weekly web series with Kristen Schaal. Live action or animation, it doesn't matter to me.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I say do it as a weekly web series with Kristen Schaal. Live action or animation, it doesn't matter to me.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wait, his being cast as Strange wasn't a joke? Man alive.
It's official: Cumberbatch. Is. Strange.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:03 AM on May 11, 2015
It's official: Cumberbatch. Is. Strange.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:03 AM on May 11, 2015
The idea that GotG was an outlier as far as tone is totally alien to me. I think it's the funniest Marvel film so far (and my favorite), but most of them have been pretty funny. That's one of the things that appeals to me about the MCU.
posted by brundlefly at 6:07 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 6:07 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Still haven't seen AoU, but I think her description of Joss Whedon's failings and strengths was spot on.
posted by chaiminda at 6:30 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by chaiminda at 6:30 AM on May 11, 2015
People protesting that folks who found the movie's flaws too problematic to make it a good movie just aren't smart enough for comics movies, or are unable to have fun, are one of the main reasons I came to regard this movie as not just painfully mediocre but a pile of crap. The cat-poop gilding going on is amazing.
I don't have to join Team Comics and pretend everything is rosy and great. James Gunn telling everyone to stop critiquing comic book movies and literally 'take the bad with the good, that's what fans do' is properly emblematic of what's wrong with the industry. I'm a smart person with the ability to think critically about comedies, blockbusters and comic books. I'm not going to turn that off just because Stan Lee has a cameo.
There were so MANY things wrong with this movie. It's perfectly ok to notice that.
posted by taterpie at 6:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
I don't have to join Team Comics and pretend everything is rosy and great. James Gunn telling everyone to stop critiquing comic book movies and literally 'take the bad with the good, that's what fans do' is properly emblematic of what's wrong with the industry. I'm a smart person with the ability to think critically about comedies, blockbusters and comic books. I'm not going to turn that off just because Stan Lee has a cameo.
There were so MANY things wrong with this movie. It's perfectly ok to notice that.
posted by taterpie at 6:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
Sady Doyle is an excellent feminist pop culture critic who writes a lot of really interesting things; this isn't just some movie critic panning something for being fluff. She's been writing about Whedon stuff in particularly really interestingly and cogently for ages.
Yeah? Well, this article is crap and she'll never write a good one again.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah? Well, this article is crap and she'll never write a good one again.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
The idea that GotG was an outlier as far as tone is totally alien to me. I think it's the funniest Marvel film so far (and my favorite), but most of them have been pretty funny. That's one of the things that appeals to me about the MCU.
There's a quote from Kevin Feige somewhere online that says humor is the key to the Marvel movies and lot of things flow from that.
There were so MANY things wrong with this movie. It's perfectly ok to notice that.
It totally is and no movie is above criticism of course. The problem, at least with AoU is that lot of the criticism is just outright terrible, where people get a certain view of the movie and then miss or make up shit that wasn't actually in the film. Like Doyles going about Captain America or Thor having not story arc in AoE. That's just flat out wrong. One can dislike the arc and say there wasn't enough of it, but to flat out deny that there was one is criticism that weakens any good points she makes.
There's also the common tactic of expecting a movie to go in a particular direction and when it doesn't, that's some fault of the movie. AoE was never trying to be quiet tale of love. It was flat out spectacle, from the very first moment and holding what the movie was blatantly doing against is bizarre.
Dislike the movie all you want. But the ranting nitpicking that has taken the place of criticism is just lazy and boring and needs to smacked around like Loki.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:52 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's a quote from Kevin Feige somewhere online that says humor is the key to the Marvel movies and lot of things flow from that.
There were so MANY things wrong with this movie. It's perfectly ok to notice that.
It totally is and no movie is above criticism of course. The problem, at least with AoU is that lot of the criticism is just outright terrible, where people get a certain view of the movie and then miss or make up shit that wasn't actually in the film. Like Doyles going about Captain America or Thor having not story arc in AoE. That's just flat out wrong. One can dislike the arc and say there wasn't enough of it, but to flat out deny that there was one is criticism that weakens any good points she makes.
There's also the common tactic of expecting a movie to go in a particular direction and when it doesn't, that's some fault of the movie. AoE was never trying to be quiet tale of love. It was flat out spectacle, from the very first moment and holding what the movie was blatantly doing against is bizarre.
Dislike the movie all you want. But the ranting nitpicking that has taken the place of criticism is just lazy and boring and needs to smacked around like Loki.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:52 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
HOW DARE YOU CALL THIS MOVIE STUPID?
CAN'T YOU TURN OFF YOUR BRAIN?
(alternate snark)
SURE, MAYBE *THIS* MOVIE WAS TOO MUCH FRANCHISE, BUT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT MOVIE IN THE FRANCHISE!
posted by Legomancer at 6:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
CAN'T YOU TURN OFF YOUR BRAIN?
(alternate snark)
SURE, MAYBE *THIS* MOVIE WAS TOO MUCH FRANCHISE, BUT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT MOVIE IN THE FRANCHISE!
posted by Legomancer at 6:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's a little disturbing how quickly the MCU burns through A-list directors, sometimes before they even start.
posted by octothorpe at 6:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog
It's Herzogs all the way down!
posted by jonp72 at 6:58 AM on May 11, 2015
It's Herzogs all the way down!
posted by jonp72 at 6:58 AM on May 11, 2015
I thought this was a great essay. I loved this bit:
Speaking of heroes, here’s Joseph Campbell:
And that's where the review lost me. Nobody who quotes Joseph Campbell positively has any business talking about racism or sexism. Or frankly, media at all. Joseph Campbell is THE reason why movies suck now.
posted by happyroach at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Speaking of heroes, here’s Joseph Campbell:
And that's where the review lost me. Nobody who quotes Joseph Campbell positively has any business talking about racism or sexism. Or frankly, media at all. Joseph Campbell is THE reason why movies suck now.
posted by happyroach at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog
If you want a vision of the future, imagine Werner Herzog's boot stepping on another Werner Herzog's face forever...
posted by jonp72 at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want a vision of the future, imagine Werner Herzog's boot stepping on another Werner Herzog's face forever...
posted by jonp72 at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just want a birdman-esque movie about the daily life and constant yelling of J Jonah Jameson.
posted by Ferreous at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 6:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also, I love the vast range of opinions here, from "All popcorn movies are crap" to "AoU wasn't great" to "AoU was pretty good, stop whining." The best part is that I DISAGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU.
posted by chaiminda at 7:07 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 7:07 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've noticed this in a lot of movies over the past five or ten years, where the supposed stakes are raised incredibly high (nuclear annihilation! purest evil!)
Ironically, the same thing has happened in film criticism in the Age of the Internet--as this review shows: no one is going to give a crap about a review that says "there were some troubling flaws in this movie." So, what do you do? "This movie is the worst movie ever and will quite literally kill movies as we have known them!!!!"
When was the last time there was a discussion of a film, an album, a book, a work of architecture or whatever here on Metafilter or on any damn discussion site on the web where the stakes weren't basically "BEST THING EVER" vs. "THE END OF CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT?"
posted by yoink at 7:09 AM on May 11, 2015 [12 favorites]
Ironically, the same thing has happened in film criticism in the Age of the Internet--as this review shows: no one is going to give a crap about a review that says "there were some troubling flaws in this movie." So, what do you do? "This movie is the worst movie ever and will quite literally kill movies as we have known them!!!!"
When was the last time there was a discussion of a film, an album, a book, a work of architecture or whatever here on Metafilter or on any damn discussion site on the web where the stakes weren't basically "BEST THING EVER" vs. "THE END OF CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT?"
posted by yoink at 7:09 AM on May 11, 2015 [12 favorites]
Comics fans mostly have built into their personas the marginal, outsider persona of the adult comics fan. For years they've stroked their egos as being able to enjoy children's media as adults as being a badge of honor. Now that they've essentially won, and the yearly top grossing movies are overwhelmingly depictions of their hobby, they can't reverse that essential part of their personalities. Therefore any critiques of comic book movies are necessarily the uninformed harping of an outsider who doesn't understand the blindingly simple object of critique, or simply can't have fun.
Welcome to trying to discuss anything with a fanboy. There is no winning that argument.
posted by codacorolla at 7:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
Welcome to trying to discuss anything with a fanboy. There is no winning that argument.
posted by codacorolla at 7:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
Indeed. My main problem with the article aren't the points themselves, but the context. It's such a clearly wrong statement because in the last few years the marvel films have been Iron Man 3, Captain America 2 and Guardians of the Galaxy. Sure, all three of those are big popcorn movies, but they're all quite different: from a remake of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang with robots, a spy thriller with a cyborg and a weird funny space opera thing who defeated the bad guy pretty much through the power of friendship.
I also find it a bit weird that someone could like the Avengers and not this film. I mean, what exactly was Captain America's character arc in the first film if you think he doesn't have one in the second?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 7:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
I also find it a bit weird that someone could like the Avengers and not this film. I mean, what exactly was Captain America's character arc in the first film if you think he doesn't have one in the second?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 7:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
My love for Big Dumb Movies came to an end with Taken 3 and Fast 7. Charlie Kaufman, where art thou?
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:16 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:16 AM on May 11, 2015
...but it weren't no Peter Parker with the jazz hands.
If you step out that door, you're an Avenger.
posted by griphus at 7:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you step out that door, you're an Avenger.
posted by griphus at 7:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Perhaps you jest
i would never joke about my love for eo wilson
posted by poffin boffin at 7:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
i would never joke about my love for eo wilson
posted by poffin boffin at 7:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Ironically, the same thing has happened in film criticism in the Age of the Internet--as this review shows: no one is going to give a crap about a review that says "there were some troubling flaws in this movie."
I fully recognize that i stay in really really edited corners of fandom, but on the ground I've mostly seen considered, well-modulated analysis and criticism of AoU, even when people care a whole lot; i kind of forgot that professional movie reviews were a thing.
I also kind of forgot that not everyone cares about characterization above all else, the way fandom tends to; some people are mostly here for plot and spectacle, which is something that AoU provides much more of, even as it trips over its own feet and falls into a bottomless pit of characterization mud.
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:44 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I fully recognize that i stay in really really edited corners of fandom, but on the ground I've mostly seen considered, well-modulated analysis and criticism of AoU, even when people care a whole lot; i kind of forgot that professional movie reviews were a thing.
I also kind of forgot that not everyone cares about characterization above all else, the way fandom tends to; some people are mostly here for plot and spectacle, which is something that AoU provides much more of, even as it trips over its own feet and falls into a bottomless pit of characterization mud.
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:44 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Guys, this is article is not "Marvel made one bad movie, therefore the rest will be bad." This article is "Marvel made a bad movie because of strategical choices they made that also apply to upcoming Marvel movies, therefore they will continue to have these problems." While I agree that there was slightly more character arc than she gives the movie credit for, the other problems: having to set up Thor 3, Civil War, and Black Panther (at least) within this movie, and needing the protagonists to be whole and essentially unchanged for their next stand-alone adventures are real problems. An Age of Ultron movie that didn't need to worry about setting up further installments would have been a sharper, more focused film. I've seen all the MCU movies, and I don't really get what Thor was up to in the whole pool of dreamy dreams sequence. I've read that Whedon didn't want that scene, but Marvel insisted. I suspect a lot of my issues with the film were things that Marvel demanded.
Re: Black Widow, I agree that some of her characterization was troubling, but as (MeFi's Own) Linda Holmes pointed out on Pop Culture Happy Hour, it would still be troubling if you swapped her plotline with anyone else's. Give her Tony's role and she's the idiot who created a villain. Give her Cap's role and she's the prissy school-marm twittering about profanity. Give her Thor's role and she just disappears in the middle of the action to go on some dream vision side errand. Give her Banner's role and she's another woman who can't control her emotions. Things could be worse for Black Widow than incipient-girlfriend-who-wishes-she-could-reproduce.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:51 AM on May 11, 2015 [24 favorites]
Re: Black Widow, I agree that some of her characterization was troubling, but as (MeFi's Own) Linda Holmes pointed out on Pop Culture Happy Hour, it would still be troubling if you swapped her plotline with anyone else's. Give her Tony's role and she's the idiot who created a villain. Give her Cap's role and she's the prissy school-marm twittering about profanity. Give her Thor's role and she just disappears in the middle of the action to go on some dream vision side errand. Give her Banner's role and she's another woman who can't control her emotions. Things could be worse for Black Widow than incipient-girlfriend-who-wishes-she-could-reproduce.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:51 AM on May 11, 2015 [24 favorites]
do you know how much i would love a movie where black widow creates world-ending robots and then saves the world with a second edition of said robots?
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh God, please give BW one of those other plotlines. Anything other than thirsty girl begging for love, lurking outside your shower door creepily giving you the full press for sex - all of which troubled me more than her grief over her infertility. Which I didn't like but wow, compared to the rest? Was starting to think Wanda hit her with the sex pollen. When Hulk took off at the end I was thinking 'smart. Get outta there, that lady has all kinds of bad boundary issues.'
I hope the Russo brothers don't just crash her and Bucky together as a way to 'fix' the issue and track closer to the comics. All their decisions about where to move away from canon have been pretty damn good.
posted by taterpie at 8:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hope the Russo brothers don't just crash her and Bucky together as a way to 'fix' the issue and track closer to the comics. All their decisions about where to move away from canon have been pretty damn good.
posted by taterpie at 8:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Marvel made a bad movie because of strategical choices they made that also apply to upcoming Marvel movies, therefore they will continue to have these problems."
Well that's true, but I really don't understand why it isn't true of the Avengers? I mean the Avengers has to take about 15 minutes at the start of the film to tell us who the hell Shield is, and introduce the weird space chatty people who we don't care about so that the rest of the film (and the mythos) works. I mean, it has Thor and Iron Man fight for essentially no reason at all, then Thor attacks Captain America.
Yes, this film had even more characters, and was resultingly more creaky, but it's just... the Avengers films were always going to be like this. That's the nature of the beast, and if you want something a bit more interesting from Marvel films just go watch... any of the other Marvel films. I don't see any evidence that AoU will necessarily constrain the following films, the previous film did not after all.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 8:06 AM on May 11, 2015
Well that's true, but I really don't understand why it isn't true of the Avengers? I mean the Avengers has to take about 15 minutes at the start of the film to tell us who the hell Shield is, and introduce the weird space chatty people who we don't care about so that the rest of the film (and the mythos) works. I mean, it has Thor and Iron Man fight for essentially no reason at all, then Thor attacks Captain America.
Yes, this film had even more characters, and was resultingly more creaky, but it's just... the Avengers films were always going to be like this. That's the nature of the beast, and if you want something a bit more interesting from Marvel films just go watch... any of the other Marvel films. I don't see any evidence that AoU will necessarily constrain the following films, the previous film did not after all.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 8:06 AM on May 11, 2015
While I agree that there was slightly more character arc than she gives the movie credit for, the other problems: having to set up Thor 3, Civil War, and Black Panther (at least) within this movie, and needing the protagonists to be whole and essentially unchanged for their next stand-alone adventures are real problems.
They really aren't. All of this is specifically building towards a massive battle in Infinity War. A lot of these stories are tied together, so faulting them for this specific function is odd.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on May 11, 2015
They really aren't. All of this is specifically building towards a massive battle in Infinity War. A lot of these stories are tied together, so faulting them for this specific function is odd.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on May 11, 2015
I hope the Russo brothers don't just crash her and Bucky together...
Cut to Steve on a cell phone saying "I'm ... really ... happy for ... you. Really. It's great. You two are ... great together," hanging up, stifling a sob, and promptly punching a Buick so hard the radio starts playing "Jolene."
posted by griphus at 8:08 AM on May 11, 2015 [27 favorites]
Cut to Steve on a cell phone saying "I'm ... really ... happy for ... you. Really. It's great. You two are ... great together," hanging up, stifling a sob, and promptly punching a Buick so hard the radio starts playing "Jolene."
posted by griphus at 8:08 AM on May 11, 2015 [27 favorites]
It's okay. Sam will be there for him.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've seen all the MCU movies, and I don't really get what Thor was up to in the whole pool of dreamy dreams sequence.
He saw something troubling in the hallucination that Scarlet Witch induced that went beyond the bringing-up-old-emotional-garbage-while-Ultron-gets-away stuff that everyone else got. He went to his astrophysicist buddy to see if he could get a more direct line to Asgard.
I've read that Whedon didn't want that scene, but Marvel insisted. I suspect a lot of my issues with the film were things that Marvel demanded.
Bad news, buddy: pretty much every single thing in both Avengers movies were things that Marvel demanded. It wasn't as if they gave Whedon a big chunk of money and he happened to turn out the first movie, which tied together all the previous MCU films, instead of doing Serenity II: Replacement Characters That You Won't Like Anywhere Near As Much As Book And Wash. About literally as long as Joss Whedon has been doing interviews, he's had a moonlighting gig bitching about how he's right and about everyone he's worked with is wrong, including on franchises that he arrived on well after their inception, such as Alien.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
He saw something troubling in the hallucination that Scarlet Witch induced that went beyond the bringing-up-old-emotional-garbage-while-Ultron-gets-away stuff that everyone else got. He went to his astrophysicist buddy to see if he could get a more direct line to Asgard.
I've read that Whedon didn't want that scene, but Marvel insisted. I suspect a lot of my issues with the film were things that Marvel demanded.
Bad news, buddy: pretty much every single thing in both Avengers movies were things that Marvel demanded. It wasn't as if they gave Whedon a big chunk of money and he happened to turn out the first movie, which tied together all the previous MCU films, instead of doing Serenity II: Replacement Characters That You Won't Like Anywhere Near As Much As Book And Wash. About literally as long as Joss Whedon has been doing interviews, he's had a moonlighting gig bitching about how he's right and about everyone he's worked with is wrong, including on franchises that he arrived on well after their inception, such as Alien.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ferreous: “I just want a birdman-esque movie about the daily life and constant yelling of J Jonah Jameson.”
They kind of already did. Twist was that he quit the news industry and became a music teacher.
posted by koeselitz at 8:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
They kind of already did. Twist was that he quit the news industry and became a music teacher.
posted by koeselitz at 8:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
When was the last time there was a discussion of a film, an album, a book, a work of architecture or whatever here on Metafilter or on any damn discussion site on the web where the stakes weren't basically "BEST THING EVER" vs. "THE END OF CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT?"
that would be the "which post-gabriel genesis song is the best post-gabriel genesis song" post from last week.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:33 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
that would be the "which post-gabriel genesis song is the best post-gabriel genesis song" post from last week.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:33 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's okay. Sam will be there for him.
"There's some good in this world, Mr. Steve. And it's worth fighting for."
posted by griphus at 8:40 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
"There's some good in this world, Mr. Steve. And it's worth fighting for."
posted by griphus at 8:40 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Whedon's complaints sound a lot like Raimi's comments about Spiderman 3 but I think that it's inevitable that the studios are never going to let a director have free reign on these giant tent-pole films. There's just too many external moving pieces dependent on these things to let someone like Whedon do whatever he wants.
posted by octothorpe at 8:44 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 8:44 AM on May 11, 2015
Yes, particularly Marvel, because the last time they did they got Ang Lee's Hulk. Which I watched last week and enjoyed, but I can see why the fans hated it.
posted by FJT at 8:45 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by FJT at 8:45 AM on May 11, 2015
But is anyone actually invested in MCU Thanos? ...other than acting as some kind of cosmic mob boss who lends out armies and wants the Infinity Gems because power, we have no real insight into what he does or what motivates him.
How about if he's a Nice Guy whining about how he's been Friendzoned by Mistress Death (the actual personification of death) and why won't she even talk to him (doesn't she owe him at least a date?!) even though he's slain half the living beings in the entire universe just for her?
Now how much do you want to see Gamora and/or Carol Danvers punch that guy in the jaw? (And how disappointed are you that Joss Whedon isn't going to be writing his dialogue?)
posted by straight at 8:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
How about if he's a Nice Guy whining about how he's been Friendzoned by Mistress Death (the actual personification of death) and why won't she even talk to him (doesn't she owe him at least a date?!) even though he's slain half the living beings in the entire universe just for her?
Now how much do you want to see Gamora and/or Carol Danvers punch that guy in the jaw? (And how disappointed are you that Joss Whedon isn't going to be writing his dialogue?)
posted by straight at 8:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't really get what Thor was up to in the whole pool of dreamy dreams sequence. I've read that Whedon didn't want that scene, but Marvel insisted
It's kinda the other way around: Whedon wanted the scene longer. In fact, in the version that was originally filmed, Thor meets up with Loki in the dream and the whole thing about the Infinity Stones gets fleshed out much more fully. Marvel weren't keen on the dream sequences at all, or on the farm sequence; basically anything that wasn't Our Heroes in Action they were leery about.
posted by yoink at 8:53 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's kinda the other way around: Whedon wanted the scene longer. In fact, in the version that was originally filmed, Thor meets up with Loki in the dream and the whole thing about the Infinity Stones gets fleshed out much more fully. Marvel weren't keen on the dream sequences at all, or on the farm sequence; basically anything that wasn't Our Heroes in Action they were leery about.
posted by yoink at 8:53 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
pretty much every single thing in both Avengers movies were things that Marvel demanded
Um. No. That's not even a teensy bit true.
posted by yoink at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015
Um. No. That's not even a teensy bit true.
posted by yoink at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015
I liked the bit where Veronica had the auto-punch arm. Reminded me of Pacific Rim. Hmm, yeah I bet Tony would build a jaeger given half a chance.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015
Anything other than thirsty girl begging for love, lurking outside your shower door creepily giving you the full press for sex
I'm seeing this opinion a lot and I'm starting to think that maybe I accidentally saw a different cut of the movie from everyone else, because I didn't see any of this in Natasha's characterization.
I was reading Sady Doyle's twitter earlier and she was talking about how Natasha was reduced to a love interest for four different Avengers men, and all I could think of was back when GamerGate was stirring things up and all the bullshit about the "five guys" because GOD FORBID a woman be in a room with more than one man without being reduced, in some people's eyes, to a sex-crazed beast who has basically already fucked all of them as soon as she walked in. GOD FORBID a woman in a movie decide she wants to take a shower. GOD FORBID a woman in a movie has a pretty damn chaste romance with another character. GOD FORBID a woman express her views on her forced sterilisation without making clear that she's speaking for herself and all the fucked up things she's been forced to do and not standing on a soapbox as Representation of All Women Everywhere Amen.
I am so, so so tired of this high bar we force every single woman involved in male-dominated fandom to jump over before we respect her as a character/creation/idea. I never expected I would say this but: Sady Doyle, you're wrong on this one.
posted by fight or flight at 9:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
I'm seeing this opinion a lot and I'm starting to think that maybe I accidentally saw a different cut of the movie from everyone else, because I didn't see any of this in Natasha's characterization.
I was reading Sady Doyle's twitter earlier and she was talking about how Natasha was reduced to a love interest for four different Avengers men, and all I could think of was back when GamerGate was stirring things up and all the bullshit about the "five guys" because GOD FORBID a woman be in a room with more than one man without being reduced, in some people's eyes, to a sex-crazed beast who has basically already fucked all of them as soon as she walked in. GOD FORBID a woman in a movie decide she wants to take a shower. GOD FORBID a woman in a movie has a pretty damn chaste romance with another character. GOD FORBID a woman express her views on her forced sterilisation without making clear that she's speaking for herself and all the fucked up things she's been forced to do and not standing on a soapbox as Representation of All Women Everywhere Amen.
I am so, so so tired of this high bar we force every single woman involved in male-dominated fandom to jump over before we respect her as a character/creation/idea. I never expected I would say this but: Sady Doyle, you're wrong on this one.
posted by fight or flight at 9:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
Welcome to trying to discuss anything with a fanboy. There is no winning that argument.
codacorolla
Maybe you aren't getting anywhere because your attitude that anyone who disagrees with you on these topics is a stunted fanboy man-child is just a tad condescending and doesn't really create a helpful environment for discussion?
posted by Sangermaine at 9:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
codacorolla
Maybe you aren't getting anywhere because your attitude that anyone who disagrees with you on these topics is a stunted fanboy man-child is just a tad condescending and doesn't really create a helpful environment for discussion?
posted by Sangermaine at 9:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
What I find most frustrating about the MCU is the amount of commitment it (apparently) requires from us avocational, non-obsessed fans. I did not grow up reading comic books; I do not know the ins and outs of every Marvel character; in addition, I have two small kids and interests other than superhero movies, and therefore I cannot possibly watch every single MCU movie and TV show.
I've seen Iron Man 1, Thor 1 (one of the worst movies I've ever seen), Avengers 1, G of the G, and the first season of Agents of Shield. Now, apparently, it looks like I'll have to go back and see the two Captain America movies if I want to know who the hell Bucky is when I see Avengers 2, and I don't really give a crap about Agent Carter, or Ant-Man, or Dr. Strange (although my wife will make me see it because Cumberbatch), but the assumption is that I'm going to see all of them so that they can all have plot-lines in Avengers 6: Character Overload.
Won't somebody please think about us regular folks please?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've seen Iron Man 1, Thor 1 (one of the worst movies I've ever seen), Avengers 1, G of the G, and the first season of Agents of Shield. Now, apparently, it looks like I'll have to go back and see the two Captain America movies if I want to know who the hell Bucky is when I see Avengers 2, and I don't really give a crap about Agent Carter, or Ant-Man, or Dr. Strange (although my wife will make me see it because Cumberbatch), but the assumption is that I'm going to see all of them so that they can all have plot-lines in Avengers 6: Character Overload.
Won't somebody please think about us regular folks please?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
In my head canon, Tony and Bruce are working on Veronica...
TONY: Look we could deploy this modular containment system that would at least slow the Hulk down...
BRUCE: What about a giant jackhammer fist that could punch the Hulk in the face six times a second? ARGH, I hate the Hulk SO MUCH!
posted by straight at 9:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
TONY: Look we could deploy this modular containment system that would at least slow the Hulk down...
BRUCE: What about a giant jackhammer fist that could punch the Hulk in the face six times a second? ARGH, I hate the Hulk SO MUCH!
posted by straight at 9:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've seen Iron Man 1, Thor 1 (one of the worst movies I've ever seen), Avengers 1, G of the G, and the first season of Agents of Shield. Now, apparently, it looks like I'll have to go back and see the two Captain America movies if I want to know who the hell Bucky is when I see Avengers 2.
I don't think Bucky is even mentioned by name in Age of Ultron. You're good to go on the continuity front.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:08 AM on May 11, 2015
I don't think Bucky is even mentioned by name in Age of Ultron. You're good to go on the continuity front.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:08 AM on May 11, 2015
I think the MCU does a relatively good job of compartmentalizing continuity, except for maybe that sprawling storyline about the downfall of SHIELD.
posted by griphus at 9:20 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 9:20 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Whew! All this talk about the Avengers is really making me want to pop in my Superfriends DVDs tonight.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am so, so so tired of this high bar we force every single woman involved in male-dominated fandom to jump over before we respect her as a character/creation/idea. I never expected I would say this but: Sady Doyle, you're wrong on this one.
Well, you're both kinda right. And you're both right because there's very, very few women in male-dominated fandoms, so any woman is going to become THE woman.
posted by FJT at 9:30 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, you're both kinda right. And you're both right because there's very, very few women in male-dominated fandoms, so any woman is going to become THE woman.
posted by FJT at 9:30 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I recall people (including Doyle) being mostly quite positive about Black Widow's role in the first film, so I don't think it's a problem of impossible expectations.
posted by kagredon at 9:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 9:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess I see a distinction between a popcorn movie and these huge groupthink blockbusters (like Transformers, or Avengers, or whatever), which are already kind of uniformly disappointing. Like others, I found Thor a lot more fun than Avengers. Was it a great movie? Absolutely not. But it was funny, Chris Hemsworth is super likeable, and I don't know, I was just all Odin-take-the-wheel.
I will see any number of shitty, fun movies (helloooo, Mad Max: Fury Road), but I'm pretty much never going to see Transformers because I can just tell that every dollar going in is stripping away a little bit more humanity and/or auteurism. It's so overproduced that it's just not fun anymore, to me. And I guess I'm a bit invested because these mindless entertainments that our culture produces can sometimes set the tone on a subject or reflect something deeper in our culture.
posted by easter queen at 10:03 AM on May 11, 2015
I will see any number of shitty, fun movies (helloooo, Mad Max: Fury Road), but I'm pretty much never going to see Transformers because I can just tell that every dollar going in is stripping away a little bit more humanity and/or auteurism. It's so overproduced that it's just not fun anymore, to me. And I guess I'm a bit invested because these mindless entertainments that our culture produces can sometimes set the tone on a subject or reflect something deeper in our culture.
posted by easter queen at 10:03 AM on May 11, 2015
shitty, fun movies (helloooo, Mad Max: Fury Road)
Not true, at least for the extent of Mad Max and Road Warrior. Excellently filmed action and stunt scenes, permanent injuries to Max (his leg brace for example), great attention to details (like the photo in Lord Humungous' Revolver Box), and borrowing from other genres (like Westerns) make it a good action film and just a good film.
I would feel a lot uneasier about the Mad Max sequel if it wasn't directed by George Miller.
posted by FJT at 10:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not true, at least for the extent of Mad Max and Road Warrior. Excellently filmed action and stunt scenes, permanent injuries to Max (his leg brace for example), great attention to details (like the photo in Lord Humungous' Revolver Box), and borrowing from other genres (like Westerns) make it a good action film and just a good film.
I would feel a lot uneasier about the Mad Max sequel if it wasn't directed by George Miller.
posted by FJT at 10:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
The bottom line is all the top-grossing movies these days are written for 14 year old boys. And that makes me kinda sad.
So if you enjoyed it and you're not a 14 year old boy, you're an idiot.
Nope. I'm saying that, as a culture, we are tending to consume culture that is more easily digestible and dumbed down.
posted by tunewell at 10:16 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
So if you enjoyed it and you're not a 14 year old boy, you're an idiot.
Nope. I'm saying that, as a culture, we are tending to consume culture that is more easily digestible and dumbed down.
posted by tunewell at 10:16 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's a good article, but somewhat overstated. All Marvel Studios has to do to fix much of the issue is to stop being so hellbent on keeping the running time down at the expense of character, motivations, and plot coherence. Transformers 4 was 2h 45m, the last LoTR movie was 3h 20m, both made over a billion dollars worldwide. It was obvious that Thor: The Dark World would have benefitted immensely from another 15 minutes or so to actually explain the villain's motivations and character, and those scenes were shot and then cut for time. Whedon's original cut of Age of Ultron was apparently well over 3 hours, and I'm pretty sure most of my problems with the final film are the result of getting it down to 2h 21m. There's no reason the sequel to the third highest-grossing movie of all time needed to be that short, except for shortsided venality in an attempt to squeeze in more showings. If the Marvel Studios execs want to keep this gravy train going, they need to loosen up on the editing requirements when it's cutting into quality, especially for these big team-up affairs with so many different elements to juggle.
At least Age Of Ultron will reportedly be getting an extended cut as a Blu Ray/DVD release, I suspect it will be a much stronger movie and become the de facto version like with Fellowship of the Ring. Avengers: Infinity War being two parts is looking less like stone-squeezing and more like a simple aquiesence to the limitations of theatrical films as a medium at this point, considering how many characters are probably going to be involved.
and it was all I expected out of a summer movie, albeit with a side of pure rage at the Black Widow "monster" line
The interpretation I took was that Black Widow doesn't consider herself a "monster" because she can't have children (I don't think that's something she even really wants at this point), it's because that was done as just one more element of making her a better killing machine. Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
posted by Wandering Idiot at 10:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
At least Age Of Ultron will reportedly be getting an extended cut as a Blu Ray/DVD release, I suspect it will be a much stronger movie and become the de facto version like with Fellowship of the Ring. Avengers: Infinity War being two parts is looking less like stone-squeezing and more like a simple aquiesence to the limitations of theatrical films as a medium at this point, considering how many characters are probably going to be involved.
and it was all I expected out of a summer movie, albeit with a side of pure rage at the Black Widow "monster" line
The interpretation I took was that Black Widow doesn't consider herself a "monster" because she can't have children (I don't think that's something she even really wants at this point), it's because that was done as just one more element of making her a better killing machine. Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
posted by Wandering Idiot at 10:17 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
What I find most frustrating about the MCU is the amount of commitment it (apparently) requires from us avocational, non-obsessed fans.
I'll admit to being sort of fascinated by this expectation of canon-literacy in mass entertainment. I don't know if there's every been anything like this in previous popular narratives. I remember when I say Dune, the theater gave everyone a sheet with all the names and references in the hopes the audience wouldn't think the film was about cumin or something.
But I also suspect that these movies never would have been possible before the internet gave us an easy way to learn details about everything we don't actually want to devote that much time to.
posted by bibliowench at 10:23 AM on May 11, 2015
I'll admit to being sort of fascinated by this expectation of canon-literacy in mass entertainment. I don't know if there's every been anything like this in previous popular narratives. I remember when I say Dune, the theater gave everyone a sheet with all the names and references in the hopes the audience wouldn't think the film was about cumin or something.
But I also suspect that these movies never would have been possible before the internet gave us an easy way to learn details about everything we don't actually want to devote that much time to.
posted by bibliowench at 10:23 AM on May 11, 2015
I'm a forty year old woman and I love everything I've seen from the MCU. I saw Avengers completely blind -- I had seen none of the movies, watched none of the TV shows, read none of the comics -- and loved it. Since then I've seen the first Thor, both Captain Americas, Guardians, and Agent Carter, and I've enjoyed them all. I'm going to go see Age of Ultron in a few weeks and I expect to love it too.
posted by KathrynT at 10:23 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 10:23 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
The interpretation I took was that Black Widow doesn't consider herself a "monster" because she can't have children (I don't think that's something she even really wants at this point), it's because that was done as just one more element of making her a better killing machine. Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
I think that was the intent of the writers, and I immediately took it as such when I saw it, but I also immediately thought of the troubling implications of that line as written and attributed it to either lazy writing or lazy editing.
posted by snottydick at 10:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think that was the intent of the writers, and I immediately took it as such when I saw it, but I also immediately thought of the troubling implications of that line as written and attributed it to either lazy writing or lazy editing.
posted by snottydick at 10:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
The interpretation I took was that Black Widow doesn't consider herself a "monster" because she can't have children (I don't think that's something she even really wants at this point), it's because that was done as just one more element of making her a better killing machine. Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
Given the still-rampant criticism of women who don't have children and the tendency to define women by their reproductive capacity, I don't think intention matters. It's either purposely insulting or insultingly tone-deaf.
posted by bibliowench at 10:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Given the still-rampant criticism of women who don't have children and the tendency to define women by their reproductive capacity, I don't think intention matters. It's either purposely insulting or insultingly tone-deaf.
posted by bibliowench at 10:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
I really liked the first Avengers movie, but sometime between then and now I grew weary of these supermassive blockbusters that are just one CGI-things-crashing-into-other-CGI-things set pieces after another. So I haven't (yet) bothered to see this Ultron one, even though I'm sure it's packed with witty Whedonesque comedy relief.
Now that I'm no longer all that enthused by computer generated spectacle, I'm not especially inclined to give these movies a pass because they throw in a half-hour of what many other fine motion pictures devote their entire running time to. The just-for-fun movies I'm enjoying these days are more along the lines of American Hustle or The Grand Budapest Hotel.
Not that I don't enjoy SF/Fantasy movies anymore, but the only Marvel film that I haven't found a little dull since Avengers was Guardians of the Galaxy, because I actually gave a crap about and enjoyed watching the characters. A talking raccoon and sentient tree are at least human, for God's sake.
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:25 AM on May 11, 2015
Now that I'm no longer all that enthused by computer generated spectacle, I'm not especially inclined to give these movies a pass because they throw in a half-hour of what many other fine motion pictures devote their entire running time to. The just-for-fun movies I'm enjoying these days are more along the lines of American Hustle or The Grand Budapest Hotel.
Not that I don't enjoy SF/Fantasy movies anymore, but the only Marvel film that I haven't found a little dull since Avengers was Guardians of the Galaxy, because I actually gave a crap about and enjoyed watching the characters. A talking raccoon and sentient tree are at least human, for God's sake.
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:25 AM on May 11, 2015
Honestly, I just view this film, and the overall Marvel strategy, as excess in success. It gets really wearying. My interest in Avengers 2 dwindled when I read about the A.V. Club writer going to a 28-hour long Marvel movie marathon.
The way I feel about it, this movie, like with the other sequels to the standalone films, are part of the Marvel movie mytharc. The new films that introduce new characters/teams feel more fresh and different. I'd rather take the Marvel hero of the year rather than mytharc films. So Doctor Strange is going to be cool, because not only does it introduce a new hero, it's a new hero that embodies a new style. Black Panther is similarly exciting.
So I guess I'm saying that I'd rather see a Squadron Supreme or Alpha Flight movie than yet another Avengers one.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on May 11, 2015
The way I feel about it, this movie, like with the other sequels to the standalone films, are part of the Marvel movie mytharc. The new films that introduce new characters/teams feel more fresh and different. I'd rather take the Marvel hero of the year rather than mytharc films. So Doctor Strange is going to be cool, because not only does it introduce a new hero, it's a new hero that embodies a new style. Black Panther is similarly exciting.
So I guess I'm saying that I'd rather see a Squadron Supreme or Alpha Flight movie than yet another Avengers one.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on May 11, 2015
The interpretation I took was that Black Widow doesn't consider herself a "monster" because she can't have children (I don't think that's something she even really wants at this point), it's because that was done as just one more element of making her a better killing machine. Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
One problem with the line was that there was no pushback to it from Banner or anyone else in the movie. Maybe that's sloppy writing and editing but it was one of those "yeah a dude (or committee of dudes) wrote this movie" moment for me. Not as bad as the Loki dropping the Victorian c-word last time, which was enough to boot me out of the movie briefly, but definitely an uncomfortable scene for me as a viewer.
posted by immlass at 10:41 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
One problem with the line was that there was no pushback to it from Banner or anyone else in the movie. Maybe that's sloppy writing and editing but it was one of those "yeah a dude (or committee of dudes) wrote this movie" moment for me. Not as bad as the Loki dropping the Victorian c-word last time, which was enough to boot me out of the movie briefly, but definitely an uncomfortable scene for me as a viewer.
posted by immlass at 10:41 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was obvious that Thor: The Dark World would have benefited immensely from another 15 minutes or so to actually explain the villain's motivations and character, and those scenes were shot and then cut for time.
It's interesting that we see in the same thread people wishing for a superheroes vs. natural disasters movie and people complaining about movies that don't care much about the villain's motivations and character.
In Thor: The Dark World, the villain might as well be a natural disaster. Who cares why the dark elves want to destroy the Nine Realms? The villain is a backdrop so the movie can focus, as it should, on the relationship between Thor and Loki.
posted by straight at 10:49 AM on May 11, 2015
It's interesting that we see in the same thread people wishing for a superheroes vs. natural disasters movie and people complaining about movies that don't care much about the villain's motivations and character.
In Thor: The Dark World, the villain might as well be a natural disaster. Who cares why the dark elves want to destroy the Nine Realms? The villain is a backdrop so the movie can focus, as it should, on the relationship between Thor and Loki.
posted by straight at 10:49 AM on May 11, 2015
Is there something I'm missing aside from a weird possible alternate meaning?
That line happens in the context of Bruce explaining to Natasha why they, as a romantic couple, can't ever be, specifically, like Hawkeye & family. And each of their inability to have kids becomes the crux of the argument for Bruce: he implies/states that the radiation has made him a poor choice for a biological father to children. Natasha replies that she's in the same boat because she was sterilized and that's when the "so you're not the only monster here" line is dropped from what I remember.
I mean yes, sure, the writers probably intended for her to refer to herself as a 'monster' in comparison to Bruce in the grand scope of Who They Are but the juxtaposition between that line and their mutual admission to being unable to have biological children (and the juxtaposition of their compromised, 'broken' personal lives to Hawkeye's idyllic homelife) puts a very different sheen on it.
posted by griphus at 10:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
That line happens in the context of Bruce explaining to Natasha why they, as a romantic couple, can't ever be, specifically, like Hawkeye & family. And each of their inability to have kids becomes the crux of the argument for Bruce: he implies/states that the radiation has made him a poor choice for a biological father to children. Natasha replies that she's in the same boat because she was sterilized and that's when the "so you're not the only monster here" line is dropped from what I remember.
I mean yes, sure, the writers probably intended for her to refer to herself as a 'monster' in comparison to Bruce in the grand scope of Who They Are but the juxtaposition between that line and their mutual admission to being unable to have biological children (and the juxtaposition of their compromised, 'broken' personal lives to Hawkeye's idyllic homelife) puts a very different sheen on it.
posted by griphus at 10:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I grew weary of these supermassive blockbusters that are just one CGI-things-crashing-into-other-CGI-things set pieces after another.
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:25 AM on May 11 [+] [!]
Eponysterical?
posted by Foosnark at 10:58 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:25 AM on May 11 [+] [!]
Eponysterical?
posted by Foosnark at 10:58 AM on May 11, 2015
snottydick: I think that was the intent of the writers, and I immediately took it as such when I saw it, but I also immediately thought of the troubling implications of that line as written and attributed it to either lazy writing or lazy editing.
That's my take. That, and Whedon isn't the feminist that his stans make him out to be. We've known this for a few decades. (As an aside, to harp on PuppyGate, anyone who thinks that people like Whedon are feminizing the genre are going to loathe Ex Machina, a movie involving a Red Piller and a Nice Guy(tm).)
But what I'm reading generally in this discussion is that some people want big dumb spectacle movies, and they want them to be interpreted as big dumb spectacle movies, we just can't say that they're big dumb spectacle movies. Instead, we need to exercise some form of pareidolia and spin literary just so stories around that scene in order to justify it. Not that it needs justification since there's entire genres that we write off as a collection of audience-satisfaction buttons, and that's ok.
It probably didn't help much that the Bruce/Widow/Hulk triangle seemed to be written and performed with minimal conviction. It certainly doesn't help that Widow got a much better "I'm a monster" dialogue in Winter Soldier. Thor's prophetic phreak phase was largely incomprehensible. In fact, very little of the movie stands up to questioning, and worse, those questions are not all that interesting. Which is ok, because it's a big dumb spectacle movie, but let's not pretend that scene has much more meaning beyond choreographing how to get the Hulk in the money shot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:07 AM on May 11, 2015
That's my take. That, and Whedon isn't the feminist that his stans make him out to be. We've known this for a few decades. (As an aside, to harp on PuppyGate, anyone who thinks that people like Whedon are feminizing the genre are going to loathe Ex Machina, a movie involving a Red Piller and a Nice Guy(tm).)
But what I'm reading generally in this discussion is that some people want big dumb spectacle movies, and they want them to be interpreted as big dumb spectacle movies, we just can't say that they're big dumb spectacle movies. Instead, we need to exercise some form of pareidolia and spin literary just so stories around that scene in order to justify it. Not that it needs justification since there's entire genres that we write off as a collection of audience-satisfaction buttons, and that's ok.
It probably didn't help much that the Bruce/Widow/Hulk triangle seemed to be written and performed with minimal conviction. It certainly doesn't help that Widow got a much better "I'm a monster" dialogue in Winter Soldier. Thor's prophetic phreak phase was largely incomprehensible. In fact, very little of the movie stands up to questioning, and worse, those questions are not all that interesting. Which is ok, because it's a big dumb spectacle movie, but let's not pretend that scene has much more meaning beyond choreographing how to get the Hulk in the money shot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:07 AM on May 11, 2015
In Thor: The Dark World, the villain might as well be a natural disaster. Who cares why the dark elves want to destroy the Nine Realms? The villain is a backdrop so the movie can focus, as it should, on the relationship between Thor and Loki.
I'd be okay with a superhero movie that doesn't have an embodied villain, but if they choose to give Thor an actual person to fight, they should do it properly.
And they also shouldn't turn Jane into a walking McGuffin with zero agency, but that's a discussion for another time.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:10 AM on May 11, 2015
I'd be okay with a superhero movie that doesn't have an embodied villain, but if they choose to give Thor an actual person to fight, they should do it properly.
And they also shouldn't turn Jane into a walking McGuffin with zero agency, but that's a discussion for another time.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:10 AM on May 11, 2015
What confuses me about this thread is that people enjoyed Iron Man 3.
posted by Skorgu at 11:13 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Skorgu at 11:13 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's easily in the upper third of the MCU in my rankings, but I'm the weirdo who thinks Winter Soldier was terrible.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:28 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:28 AM on May 11, 2015
IM3 is worth it for the Iron Gear Solid scene alone.
posted by griphus at 11:32 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 11:32 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
IM3 has the best villian of any of the Iron Man movies, and also features the occasional view of Rhodey who is clearly having exciting adventures as Iron Patriot that we're only getting snippets of. I want to see that movie.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I think that Winter Soldier was one dreadfully miscast Robert Redford away from being basically perfect. Seriously, like, who made that call? Why is Michael Douglas in Ant-Man? Who over at Disney/Marvel decided that these movies lack that je ne sais quois fixable only with Hollywood Superstars of Yesteryear?
posted by griphus at 11:38 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by griphus at 11:38 AM on May 11, 2015
What confuses me about this thread is that people enjoyed Iron Man 3.
I had never seen any of the IM movies until last week -- I watched IM on Wednesday, IM 2 on Friday and IM 3 on Saturday. Afterwards, I was like "which of those movies was I supposed to hate again? Because I don't."
posted by Foosnark at 11:40 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I had never seen any of the IM movies until last week -- I watched IM on Wednesday, IM 2 on Friday and IM 3 on Saturday. Afterwards, I was like "which of those movies was I supposed to hate again? Because I don't."
posted by Foosnark at 11:40 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I think that Winter Soldier was one dreadfully miscast Robert Redford away from being basically perfect.
Redford was perfect casting for me because he was the actor who would have played (did play) the hero of that movie in the 70s originals it was aping. Then he turns out to be the evil world dominating Nixonian wannabe.
posted by immlass at 11:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Redford was perfect casting for me because he was the actor who would have played (did play) the hero of that movie in the 70s originals it was aping. Then he turns out to be the evil world dominating Nixonian wannabe.
posted by immlass at 11:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
The directors of Winter Soldier said that they wanted to make it a 70s style paranoid thriller so I assume that casting Redford was a gesture toward All the President's Men and 3 Days of the Condor.
posted by octothorpe at 11:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
(I could add that I watched the direct-to-video animated Dr. Strange movie on Sunday, and after that I agree that there in fact are some lousy Marvel movies.)
posted by Foosnark at 11:43 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 11:43 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Based on the latest Ant-Man trailer, Douglas's casting looks like great fun, and I hope he starts doing the early-'80s-Gravitas-for-Fun-Leslie-Nielsen thing (and doesn't then overdo it and become Full-On-Wacky-Leslie-Nielsen).
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 11:44 AM on May 11, 2015
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 11:44 AM on May 11, 2015
I thought the Black Widow/Hulk thing was the most interesting part of the movie. What annoys me about comic book movies is that an indestructable hero meeting an indestructable villain, punching each other and destroying cities is boring.
10 minute fight sequences with only Hawkeye getting hurt (but don't worry, miracle science) suit no purpose to me.
Hulk's rage came out in this one, which was sorta good, but really, if I want a 10-minute epic battle that merely results in someone running away and someone else going on to the next 10-minute battle...meh.
posted by Chuffy at 11:44 AM on May 11, 2015
10 minute fight sequences with only Hawkeye getting hurt (but don't worry, miracle science) suit no purpose to me.
Hulk's rage came out in this one, which was sorta good, but really, if I want a 10-minute epic battle that merely results in someone running away and someone else going on to the next 10-minute battle...meh.
posted by Chuffy at 11:44 AM on May 11, 2015
Winter Soldier is totally a William Goldman paranoia festival. And so good.
Cut to Steve on a cell phone saying "I'm ... really ... happy for ... you. Really. It's great. You two are ... great together," hanging up, stifling a sob, and promptly punching a Buick so hard the radio starts playing "Jolene."
I love you. How are we not best friends already?
I'm also a 40 yr old woman btw and I've seen almost all the Marvel movies - and this was perhaps the 7th or 8th best among them. Behind Iron Man 3. Behind Iron Man 2. Behind Thor 1 and 2. You know, there was probably a good Iron Man/Science Bros movie buried in this. I wish we'd gotten it! Although we probably still would have gotten a rape joke out of Tony at a party. Meh.
With the comics industry being the IP Factory that Mounts The World here right now, I do appreciate the in-depth discussions going on around representation and diversity and thoughtful approaches to humanity, agency and ability. We're soaking in it - it's worth the conversations.
posted by taterpie at 11:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cut to Steve on a cell phone saying "I'm ... really ... happy for ... you. Really. It's great. You two are ... great together," hanging up, stifling a sob, and promptly punching a Buick so hard the radio starts playing "Jolene."
I love you. How are we not best friends already?
I'm also a 40 yr old woman btw and I've seen almost all the Marvel movies - and this was perhaps the 7th or 8th best among them. Behind Iron Man 3. Behind Iron Man 2. Behind Thor 1 and 2. You know, there was probably a good Iron Man/Science Bros movie buried in this. I wish we'd gotten it! Although we probably still would have gotten a rape joke out of Tony at a party. Meh.
With the comics industry being the IP Factory that Mounts The World here right now, I do appreciate the in-depth discussions going on around representation and diversity and thoughtful approaches to humanity, agency and ability. We're soaking in it - it's worth the conversations.
posted by taterpie at 11:48 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Winter Soldier is totally a William Goldman paranoia festival.
It wants to be, but then they keep having to do superhero things and nobody really felt like bridging those two genres as opposed to just leaping from one to the other at random. I want to see the movie the Russos would have made without corporate oversight, and also the Captain America sequel Joe Johnston would have shot.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:52 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
It wants to be, but then they keep having to do superhero things and nobody really felt like bridging those two genres as opposed to just leaping from one to the other at random. I want to see the movie the Russos would have made without corporate oversight, and also the Captain America sequel Joe Johnston would have shot.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:52 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Redford was perfect casting for me because he was the actor who would have played (did play) the hero of that movie in the 70s originals it was aping. Then he turns out to be the evil world dominating Nixonian wannabe.
Also, Robert Redford was the template for 70's Steve Rogers, so there's that extra element.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, Robert Redford was the template for 70's Steve Rogers, so there's that extra element.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really, really wish that Joss Whedon was making an Avengers TV series (or mini-series) instead of two Avengers movies. So many characters and no time for character development! It really is a terrible shame. I have a feeling he would like it better too.
Also, I would prefer a Black Widow TV series to a Black Widow movie. I trust Marvel Studios will get working on that now. Thank you.
Finally, I would just like to say that I (female, feminist, in my 30s, not a 14 year old boy) like Natasha+Bruce, maybe because I have always felt like Banner was the most interesting and sympathetic character, so I can't blame her. I like that she was the romantic "agressor" and he was the reluctant one. It fit with their characters. I like that she gets to deal with the loneliness that comes with power, just like Superman and Peter Parker and all the other male superheroes who traditionally get love interests and angst about the "normal life" they'll never have. And as for infertility -- I think that was actually handled pretty tactfully, in the sense that it's really no more or less of a big deal for her than it is for Bruce. Actually, he is the one who really seems to regret that he'll never have that life. Her regrets are more about her past than her future.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:56 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, I would prefer a Black Widow TV series to a Black Widow movie. I trust Marvel Studios will get working on that now. Thank you.
Finally, I would just like to say that I (female, feminist, in my 30s, not a 14 year old boy) like Natasha+Bruce, maybe because I have always felt like Banner was the most interesting and sympathetic character, so I can't blame her. I like that she was the romantic "agressor" and he was the reluctant one. It fit with their characters. I like that she gets to deal with the loneliness that comes with power, just like Superman and Peter Parker and all the other male superheroes who traditionally get love interests and angst about the "normal life" they'll never have. And as for infertility -- I think that was actually handled pretty tactfully, in the sense that it's really no more or less of a big deal for her than it is for Bruce. Actually, he is the one who really seems to regret that he'll never have that life. Her regrets are more about her past than her future.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:56 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Afterwards, I was like "which of those movies was I supposed to hate again? Because I don't."
Exactly. These movies are so polished and smoothed over that they end up being in the middle of the road. You liked it, while I'm apathetic towards them.
For something different, I watched the 2003 Ang Lee's Hulk last week and read the discussion surrounding the film. Though it's not the best Ang Lee movie or even the best superhero movie, the fact that Ang Lee is someone that doesn't work in the genre and is known for his own style, an outsider if you will, was asked to make this film made it weird and fascinating.
posted by FJT at 12:01 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Exactly. These movies are so polished and smoothed over that they end up being in the middle of the road. You liked it, while I'm apathetic towards them.
For something different, I watched the 2003 Ang Lee's Hulk last week and read the discussion surrounding the film. Though it's not the best Ang Lee movie or even the best superhero movie, the fact that Ang Lee is someone that doesn't work in the genre and is known for his own style, an outsider if you will, was asked to make this film made it weird and fascinating.
posted by FJT at 12:01 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Helen Cho, Age of Ultron, and Representation Feels
posted by Uncle Ira at 12:10 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Uncle Ira at 12:10 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I really, really wish that Joss Whedon was making an Avengers TV series
Well, careful what you wish for but we've already got that.
posted by octothorpe at 12:12 PM on May 11, 2015
Well, careful what you wish for but we've already got that.
posted by octothorpe at 12:12 PM on May 11, 2015
I want a Loki movie. Just him off having some sort of snarky adventure somewhere in the universe. Maybe the Hulk gets shot into space and they cross paths. That'd be an interesting dynamic, to have them play off of each other.
He's the best 'bad guy' because even though he is bad in the whole 'I will lie and kill and cause destruction and smirk' the entire time you're going, "Oh Loki, don't do it, c'mon, don't do it!" and then of course he goes and does the thing. You actually care about him, unlike every other villain thus far. Also, his complaints are pretty solid. Yeah, Thor totally WAS a Nordic dudebro and wasn't fit to rule a popsicle stand.
posted by Windigo at 12:15 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's the best 'bad guy' because even though he is bad in the whole 'I will lie and kill and cause destruction and smirk' the entire time you're going, "Oh Loki, don't do it, c'mon, don't do it!" and then of course he goes and does the thing. You actually care about him, unlike every other villain thus far. Also, his complaints are pretty solid. Yeah, Thor totally WAS a Nordic dudebro and wasn't fit to rule a popsicle stand.
posted by Windigo at 12:15 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I'd be pretty salty, too, if I found out I was some sort of secret war prize that parents tell their kids scary stories about.
posted by Windigo at 12:16 PM on May 11, 2015
posted by Windigo at 12:16 PM on May 11, 2015
Exactly. These movies are so polished and smoothed over that they end up being in the middle of the road. You liked it, while I'm apathetic towards them.
But... Iron Man 3 was the sequel to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang we'll never get. With robots! Although I guess Kiss Kiss Bang Bang actually does have robots in it, so there you go. Incidentally, if you liked the funny talky bits of Iron Man 3 and nothing else, go see Kiss Kiss Bang Bang because it's basically the greatest thing ever.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
But... Iron Man 3 was the sequel to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang we'll never get. With robots! Although I guess Kiss Kiss Bang Bang actually does have robots in it, so there you go. Incidentally, if you liked the funny talky bits of Iron Man 3 and nothing else, go see Kiss Kiss Bang Bang because it's basically the greatest thing ever.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, careful what you wish for but we've already got that.
I'm watching Agents of Shield (I actually kind of like it), but it is not an Avengers series. We don't get character development I'm craving for Bruce and Tony and Natasha and Clint and Steve.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm watching Agents of Shield (I actually kind of like it), but it is not an Avengers series. We don't get character development I'm craving for Bruce and Tony and Natasha and Clint and Steve.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
All in one big bed wearing old-timey pajamas.
posted by griphus at 12:21 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by griphus at 12:21 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
I wish that Avengers had been a TV series, even if they'd gone for lower budgets and lesser-known actors, because they could have actually developed the characters, devoting whole episodes to a single character rather than giving them 5-6 minutes every 2-3 years. I was watching Agents of Shield for a little while at the beginning (I watched maybe the first 6-10 episodes) but was disappointed every time they spent an episode on being nothing more than a commercial for a Marvel film I didn't intend to see.
posted by matcha action at 12:25 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by matcha action at 12:25 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not gonna lie, kinda disappointed Hulk didn't even get a line in this. Hulk has had so many different takes on the concept throughout the years, and there's no reason to keep him an inarticulate ball of rage in every movie. I'm not expecting a Grey Hulk, but how about having him bellow "HULK STRONGEST ONE THERE IS" while he is bashing on V.E.R.O.N.I.C.A.?
posted by entropicamericana at 12:44 PM on May 11, 2015
posted by entropicamericana at 12:44 PM on May 11, 2015
And he can canonically talk in the MCU! "Hulk....SMASH!" was the most satisfying part of his solo movie!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And why didn't Quicksilver say "bro" AT LEAST ONCE? SERIOUSLY, BRO.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:18 PM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 1:18 PM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I just saw AoU with my wife and we both liked it, but we didn't really dig too deeply or expect the world. I grew up on Marvel comics and none of them were ever really "good" in an adult way, at least in the 70s and 80s. Fun, yes. Worthy of deep analysis? Nah.
As far as characters, my wife never liked Black Widow before but warmed up to her in this for some reason. My least favorite was the Hulk. I find Mark Ruffalo kind of just ... sleepy, and not *quite* as unconvincing a scientist as James Franco, but almost. Maybe he didn't want to be there, but as filmed he had zero screen presence and zero chemistry with BW, which is probably why we had to be told by Hawkeye's wife about how obvious their chemistry was.
Also, I caught up on some of the more recent Marvel movies in the last 3-4 months and I think I enjoyed Thor: The Dark World the most. Winter Soldier was pretty good, but when superhero smashing is replaced by 8 billion large caliber bullet casings and zero people ever getting hit, it somehow stretches credulity even more than Magic Powers.
And finally, my least favorite thing about the Marvel movies is the dubious infinity rocks thing that supposedly ties them all together. I kind of wish they'd spend less effort on that bit, but I know the hardcore fans love that stuff.
posted by freecellwizard at 1:22 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
As far as characters, my wife never liked Black Widow before but warmed up to her in this for some reason. My least favorite was the Hulk. I find Mark Ruffalo kind of just ... sleepy, and not *quite* as unconvincing a scientist as James Franco, but almost. Maybe he didn't want to be there, but as filmed he had zero screen presence and zero chemistry with BW, which is probably why we had to be told by Hawkeye's wife about how obvious their chemistry was.
Also, I caught up on some of the more recent Marvel movies in the last 3-4 months and I think I enjoyed Thor: The Dark World the most. Winter Soldier was pretty good, but when superhero smashing is replaced by 8 billion large caliber bullet casings and zero people ever getting hit, it somehow stretches credulity even more than Magic Powers.
And finally, my least favorite thing about the Marvel movies is the dubious infinity rocks thing that supposedly ties them all together. I kind of wish they'd spend less effort on that bit, but I know the hardcore fans love that stuff.
posted by freecellwizard at 1:22 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe he didn't want to be there, but as filmed he had zero screen presence and zero chemistry with BW, which is probably why we had to be told by Hawkeye's wife about how obvious their chemistry was.
I object to a lot of things about the way they wrote the Nat/Bruce scenes, but lack of chemistry? I must BEG to differ.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:29 PM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I object to a lot of things about the way they wrote the Nat/Bruce scenes, but lack of chemistry? I must BEG to differ.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:29 PM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh, but I definitely agree with you about the infinity gems. I was over them before they were introduced. I care less every time they are mentioned. My caring about them is the inverse of how important we are repeatedly told they are. The more they matter, the more I want to give them to Thanos so that I never have to hear about them again.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:30 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:30 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Similar to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, I like to think that the Avengers movies are a sequel to Zodiac.
posted by maxsparber at 2:02 PM on May 11, 2015
posted by maxsparber at 2:02 PM on May 11, 2015
The thing I loved about IM3 was not it's plot, which was kind of a throw together, nor it's last set piece, which was a bit cartoony, but all the little bits. Stark dealing with PTSD after New York? Believable and good. Kid sidekick? Maybe the first one I ever liked in a movie, but then maybe I'm just getting old. Ben Kingsly's turn in the third act? Hilarious. Part of the joy was seeing the film take chances in shifting tone and somehow pull it off.
Now, that's very different from the first one. Because the first half of that movie is SO PERFECT that it generally causes people to forget that the third act was actually pretty boring. The third one has nothing like the tautness of direction that the first one does, but I still took a lot of pleasure from it.
The less said about IM2, the better.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:32 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Now, that's very different from the first one. Because the first half of that movie is SO PERFECT that it generally causes people to forget that the third act was actually pretty boring. The third one has nothing like the tautness of direction that the first one does, but I still took a lot of pleasure from it.
The less said about IM2, the better.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:32 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
do I need to link to the polyamory initiative again
posted by NoraReed at 3:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 3:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Add to the Black Widow problem: Marvel's toy line won't give her the AoU motorcycle she kicks ass on.
posted by TwoStride at 3:53 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 3:53 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's another Black Widow link - warning, Playboy is the destination - regarding the 'slut shaming' incident with Renner and Evans, and how BW faces an enormous hurdle being the only woman on the team because, as there are no gay or bisexual romances among the Avengers, all single (and not single) guys on and adjacent to the team will pretty much always end up linked to her.
I'm sure eventually Maria Hill, Wanda Maximoff and possibly Sharon Carter will work their way in for romance - and by the way, that is just disturbing. 'Can't hook up with your best girl in the past? Project those feelings onto her relatives!' is an icky plot - but for now, BW's got to carry the weight of sexual availability for the whole team.
posted by taterpie at 4:38 PM on May 11, 2015
I'm sure eventually Maria Hill, Wanda Maximoff and possibly Sharon Carter will work their way in for romance - and by the way, that is just disturbing. 'Can't hook up with your best girl in the past? Project those feelings onto her relatives!' is an icky plot - but for now, BW's got to carry the weight of sexual availability for the whole team.
posted by taterpie at 4:38 PM on May 11, 2015
A guide to the growing controversy over Joss Whedon’s Avengers and Marvel’s gender problem (Vox)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 4:44 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 4:44 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
The great thing about IM3's PTSD story is that it gives Tony the character arc he so obviously was originally going to have in IM2 before they chickened out, without feeling like a rehash of that plotline.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:45 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:45 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let's be fair:, few comics are as progressive as the Avengers when it comes to human-android marriage.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:04 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 5:04 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
few comics are as progressive as the Avengers when it comes to human-android marriage
Ew, don't be disgusting. The Vision is a synthezoid. Humans and androids?! Gross.
posted by straight at 6:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ew, don't be disgusting. The Vision is a synthezoid. Humans and androids?! Gross.
posted by straight at 6:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm now imagining Janelle Monae in the MCU and since it's the version of the MCU that exists in my head it is fantastic.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 6:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
i would watch the shit out of that
Captain America: Cold War. Tagline: You better know what you're fighting for.
posted by NoraReed at 7:06 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Captain America: Cold War. Tagline: You better know what you're fighting for.
posted by NoraReed at 7:06 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm so down for that. However, Disney/Marvel might worry about the target audience.
posted by taterpie at 7:15 PM on May 11, 2015
posted by taterpie at 7:15 PM on May 11, 2015
She'd team up with America Chavez, obvs.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:24 PM on May 11, 2015
posted by dinty_moore at 7:24 PM on May 11, 2015
Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog/Werner Herzog
Who is a being sheathed in metal ore, extracted from the earth and smelted in the fire that ancient man first discovered?
I am such a man.
posted by zippy at 9:17 AM on May 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Who is a being sheathed in metal ore, extracted from the earth and smelted in the fire that ancient man first discovered?
I am such a man.
posted by zippy at 9:17 AM on May 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
gazes intently at a chicken wandering aimlessly in a dirt field
"By the Sons of Satannish, you will lead me to your foul broodmaster. By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth, you will inflict the howling void of your mind upon this earth no more."
chicken straightens and looks into the camera with pure malevolence, then begins to walk away with purpose. Strange follows.
posted by kagredon at 9:29 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
"By the Sons of Satannish, you will lead me to your foul broodmaster. By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth, you will inflict the howling void of your mind upon this earth no more."
chicken straightens and looks into the camera with pure malevolence, then begins to walk away with purpose. Strange follows.
posted by kagredon at 9:29 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I lost all my excitement for seeing this mivie in a theater when I learned that about an hour of what Whedon wanted was trimmed from out. 3+ hours might be too long and a bit overstuffed (I know it is when Peter Jackson does it) but if you're going to put a director's name on a movie, I want to see that director's version of the movie.
Especially with something as nerdy as The Avengers. Shit, if it's gonna have 5 screens at the multiplex why not give it 2 regular, 2 imax super 3d or whatever, and 1 excelsior true believer extended nerd cut?
Especially especially with Joss Whedon at the helm. His work foes not benefit greatly from meddling and his strengths as a director do not lie in the big CGI pow! pow! action scenes that are definitely not gonna end up on the cutting room floor. He needs his dream sequences and his sitting around the break room bantering scenes.
I do worry that Marvel is breaking their own model of getting auteurs to make good movies in favor of focus group mandates and their grand plan for their multiphase multiverse.
posted by elr at 10:46 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Especially with something as nerdy as The Avengers. Shit, if it's gonna have 5 screens at the multiplex why not give it 2 regular, 2 imax super 3d or whatever, and 1 excelsior true believer extended nerd cut?
Especially especially with Joss Whedon at the helm. His work foes not benefit greatly from meddling and his strengths as a director do not lie in the big CGI pow! pow! action scenes that are definitely not gonna end up on the cutting room floor. He needs his dream sequences and his sitting around the break room bantering scenes.
I do worry that Marvel is breaking their own model of getting auteurs to make good movies in favor of focus group mandates and their grand plan for their multiphase multiverse.
posted by elr at 10:46 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Vision is a synthezoid.
That never made sense to me. I mean, does he listen to a lot of Kraftwerk and Giorgio Moroder? That's cool, but.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:05 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
That never made sense to me. I mean, does he listen to a lot of Kraftwerk and Giorgio Moroder? That's cool, but.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:05 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I lost all my excitement for seeing this mivie in a theater when I learned that about an hour of what Whedon wanted was trimmed from out. 3+ hours might be too long and a bit overstuffed (I know it is when Peter Jackson does it) but if you're going to put a director's name on a movie, I want to see that director's version of the movie.
This is a popular story going around, presumably so that people can feel dissatisfied with the movie but not with Joss Whedon, but it's untrue. The version on screen is Joss Whedon's version, for better or worse (albeit after compromises with the studio). The first cut was much longer, but that was not his preferred cut:
Whedon’s first cut of Age of Ultron came in at nearly three and a half hours; eventually, he and Feige worked together to slice the film down to 142 minutes. “There's one or two things that I'm unhappy about not having in there, but they're small,” said Whedon. “I said to Kevin before we started, 'My secret fantasy that'll never come true is that the second one is shorter than the first.' And we're shorter by a minute.” (source)
posted by Errant at 12:35 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a popular story going around, presumably so that people can feel dissatisfied with the movie but not with Joss Whedon, but it's untrue. The version on screen is Joss Whedon's version, for better or worse (albeit after compromises with the studio). The first cut was much longer, but that was not his preferred cut:
Whedon’s first cut of Age of Ultron came in at nearly three and a half hours; eventually, he and Feige worked together to slice the film down to 142 minutes. “There's one or two things that I'm unhappy about not having in there, but they're small,” said Whedon. “I said to Kevin before we started, 'My secret fantasy that'll never come true is that the second one is shorter than the first.' And we're shorter by a minute.” (source)
posted by Errant at 12:35 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm holding out for when David Mamet gets a turn.
The world must share my pain.
posted by um at 5:02 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
The world must share my pain.
posted by um at 5:02 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
The version on screen is Joss Whedon's version, for better or worse (albeit after compromises with the studio)
That's a curiously direct self-contradiction. I mean, either it is "Joss Whedon's version" or it is the result of "compromises with the studio"; both those things can't be true at once.
I've read (and listened to) quite a lot of Whedon's commentary on the process. He is unfailingly polite and generous in his comments about the studio's role. He wants to be clear that he understands that they were never going to simply give him free rein to make any damn movie he pleased and he praises them for being "artists" who had good reasons for all the positions they took. He is, nonetheless, also clear that there are many decisions which he would have made differently if he had been given final and absolute say on the film. Which, you know, of course. No one comes away from one of these massive collaborative products feeling that it's exactly their own personal vision. Would it have been a better movie if Marvel had said, simply, "here, have a quarter billion dollars and let us know when you're done!" I think I would probably have enjoyed it more, but I also think it wouldn't have made as much money (especially in foreign markets where more character-time and less action-time would not translate well).
I also think "such a thing was never going to happen"--and it's clear that Whedon never expected or imagined that it would happen.
posted by yoink at 5:09 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's a curiously direct self-contradiction. I mean, either it is "Joss Whedon's version" or it is the result of "compromises with the studio"; both those things can't be true at once.
I've read (and listened to) quite a lot of Whedon's commentary on the process. He is unfailingly polite and generous in his comments about the studio's role. He wants to be clear that he understands that they were never going to simply give him free rein to make any damn movie he pleased and he praises them for being "artists" who had good reasons for all the positions they took. He is, nonetheless, also clear that there are many decisions which he would have made differently if he had been given final and absolute say on the film. Which, you know, of course. No one comes away from one of these massive collaborative products feeling that it's exactly their own personal vision. Would it have been a better movie if Marvel had said, simply, "here, have a quarter billion dollars and let us know when you're done!" I think I would probably have enjoyed it more, but I also think it wouldn't have made as much money (especially in foreign markets where more character-time and less action-time would not translate well).
I also think "such a thing was never going to happen"--and it's clear that Whedon never expected or imagined that it would happen.
posted by yoink at 5:09 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, either it is "Joss Whedon's version" or it is the result of "compromises with the studio"; both those things can't be true at once.
From the very next paragraph of that comment: “There's one or two things that I'm unhappy about not having in there, but they're small,” said Whedon.
posted by dialetheia at 5:15 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the very next paragraph of that comment: “There's one or two things that I'm unhappy about not having in there, but they're small,” said Whedon.
posted by dialetheia at 5:15 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whedon not going to dump on his movie while it's in general release. Even if he thought it was a total turd, I doubt that he'd tell us that right now. He's not an idiot.
posted by octothorpe at 5:41 PM on May 12, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 5:41 PM on May 12, 2015
I mean, either it is "Joss Whedon's version" or it is the result of "compromises with the studio"; both those things can't be true at once.
Well, it's the rare director who doesn't make "compromises with the studio." Even Scorsese gets pushed around. (And he's never released a version of a movie billed as a "director's cut.")
3+ hours might be too long and a bit overstuffed (I know it is when Peter Jackson does it) but if you're going to put a director's name on a movie, I want to see that director's version of the movie.
I also think people have too much riding on this reported three-and-a-half-hour cut of the film. A 210-minute "first cut" of a movie that's eventually going to be whittled down to the neighborhood of 150 minutes is a little long, but it doesn't sound terribly out of the ordinary for a first assembly. (If you're wondering how bad it can really get, there's a book about the editing of Cold Mountain that mentions that the first assembly of that movie was five hours long.) Just because that version of the film existed at one time, it doesn't mean that anyone associated with it, Whedon included, would have been interested in releasing it in that form.
posted by Mothlight at 7:10 PM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, it's the rare director who doesn't make "compromises with the studio." Even Scorsese gets pushed around. (And he's never released a version of a movie billed as a "director's cut.")
3+ hours might be too long and a bit overstuffed (I know it is when Peter Jackson does it) but if you're going to put a director's name on a movie, I want to see that director's version of the movie.
I also think people have too much riding on this reported three-and-a-half-hour cut of the film. A 210-minute "first cut" of a movie that's eventually going to be whittled down to the neighborhood of 150 minutes is a little long, but it doesn't sound terribly out of the ordinary for a first assembly. (If you're wondering how bad it can really get, there's a book about the editing of Cold Mountain that mentions that the first assembly of that movie was five hours long.) Just because that version of the film existed at one time, it doesn't mean that anyone associated with it, Whedon included, would have been interested in releasing it in that form.
posted by Mothlight at 7:10 PM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also a decent recap of the story lines resided here
posted by 27kjmm at 7:19 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by 27kjmm at 7:19 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Please note that my comment was directly in reference to the idea that there is a 3+ hour "director's cut" out there which is the movie Joss Whedon would have made except for corporate interference. There isn't. The movie on screen is his cut, which he cut alongside Kevin Feige, which comes in at the running time he originally hoped for and didn't think he'd get. He says, explicitly, that he didn't want it to be longer but was afraid it might have to be. So I suppose that if "Joss Whedon's version" can only mean "his singular and unfiltered vision as an auteur", you might see that as antithesis to any collaborative compromise. But if you accept a meaning of "Joss Whedon's version" as "the version he calls the director's cut, since he's the director and he cut it", it isn't.
I appreciate why people want such a cut to exist. I would personally have preferred an extra ten to twenty minutes devoted to a little more character work and interplay, or maybe it's more accurate to say that I would have preferred different things here and there which probably add up to that amount of time. But according to the man himself, this is the movie he wanted to release, and there's very little he would change. If that doesn't count sufficiently as "Joss Whedon's version", I think we'll probably just have to accept that the same words mean different things to us.
I think that some people are unhappy with the movie, or at least with parts of it, but don't want to be unhappy with Whedon and would prefer to blame the corporate entity for their dissatisfaction. I don't have any personal problem with that displeasure, but this isn't Firefly and the studio didn't butcher Joss Whedon's vision.
posted by Errant at 8:38 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I appreciate why people want such a cut to exist. I would personally have preferred an extra ten to twenty minutes devoted to a little more character work and interplay, or maybe it's more accurate to say that I would have preferred different things here and there which probably add up to that amount of time. But according to the man himself, this is the movie he wanted to release, and there's very little he would change. If that doesn't count sufficiently as "Joss Whedon's version", I think we'll probably just have to accept that the same words mean different things to us.
I think that some people are unhappy with the movie, or at least with parts of it, but don't want to be unhappy with Whedon and would prefer to blame the corporate entity for their dissatisfaction. I don't have any personal problem with that displeasure, but this isn't Firefly and the studio didn't butcher Joss Whedon's vision.
posted by Errant at 8:38 PM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
personally, I'm waiting breathlessly for the six hour cut of Avengers by a Famous French Film Director. A full 47 minutes of Black Widow staring silently out a window as the rain patters down. Just imagine...
posted by happyroach at 1:49 AM on May 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by happyroach at 1:49 AM on May 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh sorry, I forgot there was some studio interference. The window scene will only be 39 minutes. The damn thing is RUINED.
posted by happyroach at 1:50 AM on May 13, 2015
posted by happyroach at 1:50 AM on May 13, 2015
I don't know what French film director you have in mind, Happyroach, but I would totally pay to see a Tsai Ming-Liang "slow cinema" version of The Avengers dealing only with our heroes off the clock—buying groceries, hiking in the mountains, chilling at seaside.
posted by Mothlight at 6:51 AM on May 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Mothlight at 6:51 AM on May 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Does the film feature any Oracle adverts sprinkled throughout it like that horrible Iron Man 3 film did or was there not enough time for such things when the focus is spread out? I must give credit to whomever is control of the Iron Man wing of the franchise. A very entertaining Iron Man movie was followed by utter nonsense (2, 3, and presumably 4,5,6, etc.) faster than Star Wars managed it. Standing on the shoulders of giants I suppose.
Like others, I really don't look to mainstream films for any sort of logic, meaning, character, sincerity, and most certainly not for portrayal of anything with any depth, just for casual entertainment that I can be on a treadmill while watching (if I wait to see it on Netflix after the theatrical runs) because it's so light, significant attention is not required. Usually 2 out of 10 are good at that in my experience.
posted by juiceCake at 6:42 PM on May 13, 2015
Like others, I really don't look to mainstream films for any sort of logic, meaning, character, sincerity, and most certainly not for portrayal of anything with any depth, just for casual entertainment that I can be on a treadmill while watching (if I wait to see it on Netflix after the theatrical runs) because it's so light, significant attention is not required. Usually 2 out of 10 are good at that in my experience.
posted by juiceCake at 6:42 PM on May 13, 2015
There was the awful Beats by Dre product placement. No WAY would the hulk listen to opera on those pieces of shit. There was also the underarmor shirts on Cap and Pietro.
posted by kittensofthenight at 7:16 PM on May 15, 2015
posted by kittensofthenight at 7:16 PM on May 15, 2015
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posted by humans are superior! at 7:35 PM on May 10, 2015 [7 favorites]