The Ghosts of Pickering Trail
August 14, 2015 9:11 AM Subscribe
How do violent acts affect home value, and what should be disclosed by the seller? A family's effort to find healing and recompense after tragedy (trigger warning: discussions of violence, suicide and murder)
If they didn't know anything about the murder, I find it hard to believe that the stray draft or bump in the night would be attributed to anything supernatural.
posted by dr_dank at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 9:50 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
So the takeaway from the story seems to be "once the family was able to grieve and enough time had passed, the house stopped seeming so terrible to them; also, the neighbors started to forget over time"? That seems to undercut the whole premise that the house was irretrievably affected and/or full of angry ghosts.
I found the parts describing the ways in which stigmatized properties have been handled really interesting, though - especially the whole "new facade, new paint, new house number" bit.
The family who owned the house I live in was very, very unhappy (we've got ample evidence of all kinds of bizarre trauma, up to and including the fact that several of the children were unaware that the father had died six years after the fact), and the mother spent most of a long dying there. We've found all kinds of horrible traces, like kicked in dents on many of the doors (and real serious adult-sized dents, too - not just 'angry three year old goes to town') The house reeked of cigarette smoke down to the floorboards when we moved in; one difficult-to-reach window pane is still thickly coated with nicotine because I can't get at it to scrub it hard enough. Mysterious stains, writing on the walls and an endless sequence of bad patchwork repairs - wood putty used in the plaster, plaster used on a crack in the wooden stairs, medical tape that had obviously been used to hold things to the ceiling. We've peeled away almost all of it and we're replacing things as we can afford to, but it's still a house with gross and creepy corners. It felt very, very creepy until we'd done the first major repairs. I completely understand how a house can feel bad, and I can only imagine that it would be a lot worse with a house where something truly terrible had happened.
posted by Frowner at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
I found the parts describing the ways in which stigmatized properties have been handled really interesting, though - especially the whole "new facade, new paint, new house number" bit.
The family who owned the house I live in was very, very unhappy (we've got ample evidence of all kinds of bizarre trauma, up to and including the fact that several of the children were unaware that the father had died six years after the fact), and the mother spent most of a long dying there. We've found all kinds of horrible traces, like kicked in dents on many of the doors (and real serious adult-sized dents, too - not just 'angry three year old goes to town') The house reeked of cigarette smoke down to the floorboards when we moved in; one difficult-to-reach window pane is still thickly coated with nicotine because I can't get at it to scrub it hard enough. Mysterious stains, writing on the walls and an endless sequence of bad patchwork repairs - wood putty used in the plaster, plaster used on a crack in the wooden stairs, medical tape that had obviously been used to hold things to the ceiling. We've peeled away almost all of it and we're replacing things as we can afford to, but it's still a house with gross and creepy corners. It felt very, very creepy until we'd done the first major repairs. I completely understand how a house can feel bad, and I can only imagine that it would be a lot worse with a house where something truly terrible had happened.
posted by Frowner at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
The major premise of the story is not that the house is haunted by literal ghosts. It is about the stigma surrounding the property.
Bell seems to have done pretty thorough research into the phenomenon, and for not entirely literal definitions of haunt, it clearly is haunted. Sure, if nobody knew what had happened there, it wouldn't be, but people do know. Neighbors know, lookie-loos know, and it is all but inevitable that the residents will know eventually as well. The house, at least for a period of time, is going affect most people's perception of the home and its residents, and could subject the owners to harassment and ostracizing even if they weren't spooked themselves. That door pounding incident was probably neighborhood kids targeting the house on a dare.
I can certainly see how it would be difficult to put a number on the specific depreciation that a property experiences based on so many different factors and understand the courts' hesitation to codify that sort of thing.
But none of that, to me, argues against requiring disclosure in cases where it's pretty obviously something that would affect enough people's perceptions to affect the property value.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Bell seems to have done pretty thorough research into the phenomenon, and for not entirely literal definitions of haunt, it clearly is haunted. Sure, if nobody knew what had happened there, it wouldn't be, but people do know. Neighbors know, lookie-loos know, and it is all but inevitable that the residents will know eventually as well. The house, at least for a period of time, is going affect most people's perception of the home and its residents, and could subject the owners to harassment and ostracizing even if they weren't spooked themselves. That door pounding incident was probably neighborhood kids targeting the house on a dare.
I can certainly see how it would be difficult to put a number on the specific depreciation that a property experiences based on so many different factors and understand the courts' hesitation to codify that sort of thing.
But none of that, to me, argues against requiring disclosure in cases where it's pretty obviously something that would affect enough people's perceptions to affect the property value.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
We bought a house at the same time another house down the block was for sale. Our house has a lake view and bigger front and back yards, with a two-car garage. Their house was $30k more for a near-useless back yard and single car garage, and... oh, yeah, had had three straight owners die by suicide, including one guy who had killed his estranged wife (elsewhere) and made the SWAT team come in on him before they discovered the body.
I hear a very nice couple has moved in, but I'm a little worried about getting too close.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2015
I hear a very nice couple has moved in, but I'm a little worried about getting too close.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:28 AM on August 14, 2015
Sure, if nobody knew what had happened there, it wouldn't be, but people do know. Neighbors know, lookie-loos know, and it is all but inevitable that the residents will know eventually as well.
It's absurd that it's 2015 and this still has to be the case, though you are right that since people are still in the thrall of idiotic superstition, there can be a real effect on property value that must be considered.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:36 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's absurd that it's 2015 and this still has to be the case, though you are right that since people are still in the thrall of idiotic superstition, there can be a real effect on property value that must be considered.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:36 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Related AskMe: Renting an apartment where a murder occurred, must landlord inform potential tenant?
posted by MrMoonPie at 10:43 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MrMoonPie at 10:43 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fascinating article -- thank you for sharing. I was just rereading "Happy Like Murderers," about Fred and Rosemary West; their house was also razed and all its remains destroyed to avoid looky-loos and souvenir hunters.
I live in a house that saw a husband-and-wife murder-suicide, but because it happened forty years ago it wasn't disclosed in the sale paperwork. The longtime neighbors made sure to tell us all about it on move-in day. The seller was dying of AIDS and his partner had died a couple of years before, but I don't think that was legally disclosed either (we knew because our realtor was a friend of his).
I wasn't scared of the ghosts at first, but there have definitely been feelings in the house like the ones in the story. I felt like I was being watched at night and never really like being downstairs after dark.
Things have settled down in the last few years, maybe because I'm used to it now -- but also because I talk out loud to the former owners and tell them they are welcome to stay as long as they let me go to sleep at night.
posted by vickyverky at 10:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
I live in a house that saw a husband-and-wife murder-suicide, but because it happened forty years ago it wasn't disclosed in the sale paperwork. The longtime neighbors made sure to tell us all about it on move-in day. The seller was dying of AIDS and his partner had died a couple of years before, but I don't think that was legally disclosed either (we knew because our realtor was a friend of his).
I wasn't scared of the ghosts at first, but there have definitely been feelings in the house like the ones in the story. I felt like I was being watched at night and never really like being downstairs after dark.
Things have settled down in the last few years, maybe because I'm used to it now -- but also because I talk out loud to the former owners and tell them they are welcome to stay as long as they let me go to sleep at night.
posted by vickyverky at 10:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
This article discusses the story behind one of the best sentences ever to appear in a court opinion: "as a matter of law, the house is haunted."
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's not just superstition, though. Living in a house where a crime was committed can haunt you in a boringly bureaucratic way. If there's a perpetrator that hasn't been caught, or tried, or sentenced yet, your address is still all over a bunch of active police and court documents and maybe the news, and some of that stuff is going to live online forever. Prospective employers may google you and find out you live in a Murder House. You're moving into a neighborhood where at least some of the neighbors are always going to have fear/sadness/trauma associated with your home. You may have unwelcome real actual human visitors, both official and unofficial, and possibly vandalism or break-ins.
I had actually thought there were pretty straightforward disclosure laws until I read this article.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
I had actually thought there were pretty straightforward disclosure laws until I read this article.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:51 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's not just superstition, though.
It is just superstition. There are no such things are ghosts. Any discussion of ghosts is absurd.
Now the points you raise, the real problems that may come from owning such a house, those are actual things worth considering. But we need to stop discussing these things in superstitious terms like "haunting", and discuss them only in the terms you raise. We need to put the absurdity to rest.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is just superstition. There are no such things are ghosts. Any discussion of ghosts is absurd.
Now the points you raise, the real problems that may come from owning such a house, those are actual things worth considering. But we need to stop discussing these things in superstitious terms like "haunting", and discuss them only in the terms you raise. We need to put the absurdity to rest.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
One of my dearest friends lives in a house where several of her friend's family were murdered by a boyfriend. It is a tiny street, you can't miss the lookylous who STILL drive past, years later. They've had some unusual physical phenomena as well. But seriously, the people cruising by hoping for a glimpse of (what?) is worse.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:21 AM on August 14, 2015
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:21 AM on August 14, 2015
It is just superstition. There are no such things are ghosts. Any discussion of ghosts is absurd.
There are very much such things as ghosts.
posted by griphus at 11:25 AM on August 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
There are very much such things as ghosts.
posted by griphus at 11:25 AM on August 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
No, there are not.
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 11:27 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: I'm fairly certain this "ghosts are fake", "no they're real", "nuh uh", "yuh huh" exchange is not going to get more interesting as it goes on in here, so maybe focus more on talking about the link content?
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:40 AM on August 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:40 AM on August 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
You know, there's nothing that annoys me more than this stupidly superstitious belief in houses. I keep hearing the stories- "My friend's brother-in-law lived in a house"; "I lived in a house as a child"- it's all stuff and nonsense. EVERY so-called house sighting has a rational scientific explanation, but people keep spewing this nonsense.
posted by happyroach at 11:41 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 11:41 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
100 ghost butts could be touching you right now.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:46 AM on August 14, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:46 AM on August 14, 2015 [22 favorites]
When I bought my current house, the selling price was well below neighborhood market value. It actually has two more bedrooms and one more full bath than other comparable models in the area, but the asking price was much lower. And that was nearly all because it was showing poorly. And most of the problems weren't even parts of the house. I'm talking about stuff that the owners would either take with them when they moved or that could easily be discarded. Heavy drapes obscuring big picture windows making the house look dark, oversized furniture making rooms visually appear smaller. Things like that.
I'm sure that one major reason I was able to get the house at that price was because buyers were irrationally turned off by how it showed. It would have been easy enough for anyone to do what I did, and measure the actual size of the rooms, look behind the drapes, and picture it without the ugly furnishings, but apparently, most people didn't. Enough people, in fact, that it seriously affected the market value of the house.
People are irrational. This is normal, and it's something we all know and live with every day. We are not super-logical robots. We have emotional responses to things, and when enough people have the same emotional response to the same thing, that affects its market value.
I could make a much better case for a stigmatized property being devalued than I could for a house like mine that is just showing poorly. People weren't whispering behind my back, prohibiting their kids from coming over, or knocking on my door and running away because my house used to have unflattering window treatments.
In a sense, those properties are haunted in ways that aren't at all superstitious. It doesn't take a belief in ghosts for someone to feel uncomfortable in a place where something horrific happened. Just being reminded is enough.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm sure that one major reason I was able to get the house at that price was because buyers were irrationally turned off by how it showed. It would have been easy enough for anyone to do what I did, and measure the actual size of the rooms, look behind the drapes, and picture it without the ugly furnishings, but apparently, most people didn't. Enough people, in fact, that it seriously affected the market value of the house.
People are irrational. This is normal, and it's something we all know and live with every day. We are not super-logical robots. We have emotional responses to things, and when enough people have the same emotional response to the same thing, that affects its market value.
I could make a much better case for a stigmatized property being devalued than I could for a house like mine that is just showing poorly. People weren't whispering behind my back, prohibiting their kids from coming over, or knocking on my door and running away because my house used to have unflattering window treatments.
In a sense, those properties are haunted in ways that aren't at all superstitious. It doesn't take a belief in ghosts for someone to feel uncomfortable in a place where something horrific happened. Just being reminded is enough.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
There are very much such things as ghosts.I'm curious about why you say that. Do you have an honest belief in the supernatural or are you speaking metaphorically?
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:46 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Are there seriously people who don't believe in ghosts?
posted by shakespeherian at 1:17 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 1:17 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I ain't afraid of no ghosts.
posted by asperity at 1:22 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by asperity at 1:22 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
Are there seriously people who don't believe in ghosts?
I really can't tell if this is serious or not. I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality, or am being intentionally pranked.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:22 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I really can't tell if this is serious or not. I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality, or am being intentionally pranked.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:22 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Are there seriously people who don't believe in ghosts?
Me. I don't. I'm positive that Sangermaine and I aren't the only ones.
posted by cooker girl at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Me. I don't. I'm positive that Sangermaine and I aren't the only ones.
posted by cooker girl at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are several large religions, and at least one large unreligion, that don't believe in an afterlife. No afterlife, no ghosts.
Yes yes, there's the "residual" haunting theory, which I will be happy to embrace once Science! proves that energy or electromagnetics or whatever works that way. Until then, I still enjoy a creepy story, but those are fiction.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes yes, there's the "residual" haunting theory, which I will be happy to embrace once Science! proves that energy or electromagnetics or whatever works that way. Until then, I still enjoy a creepy story, but those are fiction.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
* googles "do jews believe in ghosts" * (because the subject has never come up.)
* falls down hellmouth demon rabbit hole *
posted by zarq at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
* falls down hellmouth demon rabbit hole *
posted by zarq at 3:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
elijah though
posted by poffin boffin at 4:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
elijah though
And hauntings by the ghosts of Jewish Mothers passed.
posted by zarq at 4:48 PM on August 14, 2015
And hauntings by the ghosts of Jewish Mothers passed.
posted by zarq at 4:48 PM on August 14, 2015
I'm fairly certain this "ghosts are fake", "no they're real", "nuh uh", "yuh huh" exchange is not going to get more interesting as it goes on in here,
Psychic predictions are real too! OMG!
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Psychic predictions are real too! OMG!
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think I really want to believe in ghosts, but I kind of do anyway.
One of the best and most credible accounts of ghosts I've ever run into was an article in the LRB, Ghosts of the Tsunami, which was the subject of an excellent thread here on MetaFilter.
There's an old thread on reddit, "What's the Creepiest Thing Your Kid Ever Said to You", which surprisingly has many wonderful, believable ghost stories.
posted by jamjam at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2015
One of the best and most credible accounts of ghosts I've ever run into was an article in the LRB, Ghosts of the Tsunami, which was the subject of an excellent thread here on MetaFilter.
There's an old thread on reddit, "What's the Creepiest Thing Your Kid Ever Said to You", which surprisingly has many wonderful, believable ghost stories.
posted by jamjam at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2015
One can not believe in ghosts as literal manifestations of dead spirits from beyond the grave and still absolutely believe that a place and the people around it can be haunted by a traumatic incident, a societal PTSD that lingers like a wound.
People visit Auschwitz and Ground Zero in NYC and come away from the experience moved and disturbed, even though there are no undead Nazis or Al Qaeda ghosts lying in wait. People get angry when corpses are mutilated or stolen or when graveyards are desecrated or trashed, even though dead bodies aren't people anymore. People put memorial crosses and ghost bikes beside roads in places where people have died in car accidents, even though no corpse is buried there and one nondescript stretch of highway is pretty much like another. These are illogical, emotional reactions, and that's okay, because that's part of being human.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
People visit Auschwitz and Ground Zero in NYC and come away from the experience moved and disturbed, even though there are no undead Nazis or Al Qaeda ghosts lying in wait. People get angry when corpses are mutilated or stolen or when graveyards are desecrated or trashed, even though dead bodies aren't people anymore. People put memorial crosses and ghost bikes beside roads in places where people have died in car accidents, even though no corpse is buried there and one nondescript stretch of highway is pretty much like another. These are illogical, emotional reactions, and that's okay, because that's part of being human.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
The ghost thing is pretty conclusively settled, but this is a major derail.
Anyway I'm really surprised that not every state has a law about violence-disclosures in house sales. It's got the potential to bite any house flipper with other hobbies/a day job, and that's exactly the sort of moderate-wealth investment a lot of state legislators and the local power brokers that low level legislators depend on are likely to get into.
on preview: askreddit basically a slightly more plausible-sounding alternative to /r/writingprompts (and /r/sex). I would not put stock in anything posted there.
posted by sandswipe at 5:29 PM on August 14, 2015
Anyway I'm really surprised that not every state has a law about violence-disclosures in house sales. It's got the potential to bite any house flipper with other hobbies/a day job, and that's exactly the sort of moderate-wealth investment a lot of state legislators and the local power brokers that low level legislators depend on are likely to get into.
on preview: askreddit basically a slightly more plausible-sounding alternative to /r/writingprompts (and /r/sex). I would not put stock in anything posted there.
posted by sandswipe at 5:29 PM on August 14, 2015
Every single ghost, UFO and Bigfoot I'VE photographed on my cell phone has mysteriously disappeared the next day.
'Splain that.
posted by glaucon at 6:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
'Splain that.
posted by glaucon at 6:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
The ghost thing is pretty conclusively settled, but this is a major derail.
I don't actually believe in ghosts and of course I laughed at the comic, but considering how hard it is to get a clear photograph of my extremely real cat, I'm not sure that a lack of smartphone photos is really enough to settle the ghost question forever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:25 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't actually believe in ghosts and of course I laughed at the comic, but considering how hard it is to get a clear photograph of my extremely real cat, I'm not sure that a lack of smartphone photos is really enough to settle the ghost question forever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:25 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like I'm being trolled...
Disingenuous comment is disingenuous.
posted by dersins at 11:35 PM on August 14, 2015
Disingenuous comment is disingenuous.
posted by dersins at 11:35 PM on August 14, 2015
I agree with nicebookrack. I haven't gotten very far into Knausgaard's My Struggle but the first three megaparagraphs describe this well.
posted by drowsy at 3:58 PM on August 15, 2015
posted by drowsy at 3:58 PM on August 15, 2015
I have a second cousin, a very serious Presbyterian lady, who owns a desirable rental property formerly occupied by her parents. At a funeral not long ago I found myself seated opposite Jackie and asked how that property was doing.
"Well, we've had a few bumps," she said vaguely.
"Bumps?"
"I had a very nice couple move in a few months ago, but they left after less than a week. When they turned in the keys, the woman said they heard footsteps on the back stairs when the door at the bottom was locked, and once swore they heard 'an old man shuffling around in the dark.' Well, you know Dad didn't like unmarried couples living together, and that girl's description sounded just like him."
"So, you think the apartment is haunted by your father?"
"I don't believe in ghosts."
"Has it happened any other times?"
"Well, I rented to a gay couple who swore they saw an old man's reflection behind them in the bathroom mirror who vanished when they turned, and the description was definitely Dad."
"But Jackie, you're saying he's a ghost!"
"I do not believe in ghosts."
"So how do you describe these things?"
"I can't. But I still don't believe in ghosts."
posted by kinnakeet at 7:26 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Well, we've had a few bumps," she said vaguely.
"Bumps?"
"I had a very nice couple move in a few months ago, but they left after less than a week. When they turned in the keys, the woman said they heard footsteps on the back stairs when the door at the bottom was locked, and once swore they heard 'an old man shuffling around in the dark.' Well, you know Dad didn't like unmarried couples living together, and that girl's description sounded just like him."
"So, you think the apartment is haunted by your father?"
"I don't believe in ghosts."
"Has it happened any other times?"
"Well, I rented to a gay couple who swore they saw an old man's reflection behind them in the bathroom mirror who vanished when they turned, and the description was definitely Dad."
"But Jackie, you're saying he's a ghost!"
"I do not believe in ghosts."
"So how do you describe these things?"
"I can't. But I still don't believe in ghosts."
posted by kinnakeet at 7:26 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
* googles "do jews believe in ghosts" * (because the subject has never come up.)
The Dybbuk (ghost-like anyway) didn't become a canonical piece of Yiddish drama for nothing.
posted by zachlipton at 5:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Dybbuk (ghost-like anyway) didn't become a canonical piece of Yiddish drama for nothing.
posted by zachlipton at 5:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
« Older "A Piece of Meat and a Bun with Something On It." | Cut. It. Out. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Huck500 at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]