I had summoned a very friendly Balrog.
September 2, 2015 9:54 AM Subscribe
It was like a mirror world to YouTube comments, where several dozen anonymous people had come together in love and harmony to write a complex, logically coherent document, based on a single tweet.Fan is a tool using animal. Maciej Cegłowski on what happened when fandom was forced to migrate from Delicious to Pinboard and he asked what his site could do better.
This is a sweet and adorable story. I particularly like that Maciej specifically called out the distinction between this process and some other approaches to spec writing that are perhaps more normative in the industry.
posted by janell at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by janell at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: an attractive, pan-ethnic crew roaming the galaxy, solving moral dilemmas in tight uniforms
posted by exogenous at 11:00 AM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by exogenous at 11:00 AM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
That was really interesting.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:12 AM on September 2, 2015
posted by benito.strauss at 11:12 AM on September 2, 2015
CONFUSED BUT REMARKABLY VIGOROUS APPLAUSE
That was terrific, and I think I've uprooted the last vestiges of my former snarky attitude towards this kind of fandom. You go, fans!
posted by languagehat at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
That was terrific, and I think I've uprooted the last vestiges of my former snarky attitude towards this kind of fandom. You go, fans!
posted by languagehat at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
This makes me feel incredibly old that I'm still happily using Delicious to manage my bookmarks. Not unlike my grandmother still booting up her brick of a laptop to check the weather and write me a hotmail about it.
posted by allkindsoftime at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
posted by allkindsoftime at 11:48 AM on September 2, 2015
I'm one of the fans who fled Delicious in horror after the slash tags stopped working, and I've been really pleased with Pinboard and Maciej's general welcoming attitude towards fandom. Pinboard still doesn't have quite the same mass of fans who were using Delicious at its height, and now people are more splintered in terms of some using AO3's bookmarking system or tumblr. But Pinboard remains my preferred fannish bookmarking system.
posted by yasaman at 11:56 AM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 11:56 AM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Wow, are there some important contrasts here.
The spec makes it obvious what a pale laughable shadow most "user stories" are by showing us the REAL THING: a document generated by deeply engaged users (whose enthusiastic hobbies themselves include writing stories).
And there's the contrast between how people think of some groups as marginal versus the actual talent and energy they contain.
Maybe explicit contrast between all this constructivity and the banal horribleness of YouTube comments is really another face of the contrast between love and hate.
posted by weston at 1:04 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
The spec makes it obvious what a pale laughable shadow most "user stories" are by showing us the REAL THING: a document generated by deeply engaged users (whose enthusiastic hobbies themselves include writing stories).
And there's the contrast between how people think of some groups as marginal versus the actual talent and energy they contain.
Maybe explicit contrast between all this constructivity and the banal horribleness of YouTube comments is really another face of the contrast between love and hate.
posted by weston at 1:04 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I clearly need a Pinboard account.
(Also, definitely assigning this as a reading in some tech comm courses this year!)
posted by Tesseractive at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2015
(Also, definitely assigning this as a reading in some tech comm courses this year!)
posted by Tesseractive at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2015
Still frustrated that most of fandom seems to be on Tumblr now. It's all pictures! LJ had its problems, too, and I don't know what the perfect fan social media site looks like, but I wish we could figure it out.
posted by chaiminda at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I remember when all of this went down originally - it's a lovely walk through memory lane. Bless Pinboard and all who sail in 'er.
posted by Gin and Broadband at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Gin and Broadband at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is great stuff. I've used Pinboard for a while, and I have myself marked as a member of fandom (because I figured, eh, why not, I'm certainly an SF&F dork) though fanfic is not exactly my bag, but I really didn't know the background of the feature.
It's unfortunate that most of the stuff listed under "Executive Summary Of Low-Hanging Takeaways for Key Stakeholders" is basically impossible by its very nature for the sorts of people who keep aggressively ruining sites like Delicious and Flickr to understand. I mean,
posted by brennen at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's unfortunate that most of the stuff listed under "Executive Summary Of Low-Hanging Takeaways for Key Stakeholders" is basically impossible by its very nature for the sorts of people who keep aggressively ruining sites like Delicious and Flickr to understand. I mean,
There's a horrible conceit gaining ground that websites present someting called "content". I like to think of it as an amorphous, tofu-like substance. You cut it to whatever shape you want, and then pour some kind of syrup or gravy called "social" on top to give it flavor.I have talked myself blue in the face a thousand times. I don't think that even once I have managed to communicate any one of these ideas to anyone who didn't already pretty much share them.
Social is not a syrup, a sauce, a gravy. It's not even a noun.
...
A corollary of that is 'just stop futzing with it'. Don't 'refresh' your interface. Gratuitous change is an easy way to break trust with your community, or break features you didn't even know you had.
...
Just because you wrote it doesn't mean you know what your site is for.
posted by brennen at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
The fact that you have to pay for Pinboard probably keeps some people from using it, even though it is a one-time cost. I have two accounts, one for sharing at work and one for my goofy fannish loves, and I find it perfect for what I need.
I am curious to see what the next great fannish migration will be. It's been all Tumblr-ward for a long time now -- which isn't a great medium for the kind of meta and discussion I like -- but the latest social media figures seem to show Tumblr use falling, in the US at least.
Today the entire dashboard was full of ire at the new update, which would appear to be exactly the kind of threaded reblogs/comments that people who quit LJ for Tumblr said they missed. But apparently that's not what people want at all, and they are very cross. Plus ca change.
posted by finisterre at 3:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am curious to see what the next great fannish migration will be. It's been all Tumblr-ward for a long time now -- which isn't a great medium for the kind of meta and discussion I like -- but the latest social media figures seem to show Tumblr use falling, in the US at least.
Today the entire dashboard was full of ire at the new update, which would appear to be exactly the kind of threaded reblogs/comments that people who quit LJ for Tumblr said they missed. But apparently that's not what people want at all, and they are very cross. Plus ca change.
posted by finisterre at 3:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's unfortunate that most of the stuff listed under "Executive Summary Of Low-Hanging Takeaways for Key Stakeholders" is basically impossible by its very nature for the sorts of people who keep aggressively ruining sites like Delicious and Flickr to understand.
"people exploit what they have merely concluded to be of value, but they defend what they love." -Wendell Berry
posted by weston at 3:29 PM on September 2, 2015
"people exploit what they have merely concluded to be of value, but they defend what they love." -Wendell Berry
posted by weston at 3:29 PM on September 2, 2015
Another Archive Of Our Own/Pinboard user here (am also on Dreamwidth and Twitter). Am not on Tumblr, nor Facebook, and only get access to the locked LiveJournals of friends via OpenID login (and I do not trust that to work forever, since I don't know whether LJ's new owners really care about that functionality).
I keep up with fandom mostly via Dreamwidth and Twitter, with a dash of MeFi and Making Light.
posted by brainwane at 4:49 PM on September 2, 2015
I keep up with fandom mostly via Dreamwidth and Twitter, with a dash of MeFi and Making Light.
posted by brainwane at 4:49 PM on September 2, 2015
I presume there are great fannish discussions happening in a thousand places I never think to go or haven't been invited -- Yahoo! Answers, 4chan, the fanfiction.net fora, always-on Google Hangouts, WhatsApp groups...
posted by brainwane at 4:52 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by brainwane at 4:52 PM on September 2, 2015
The fact that you have to pay for Pinboard probably keeps some people from using it, even though it is a one-time cost.
Their website says it's yearly, and additionally has two "tiers" of account. I was all in favor until I read that.
posted by JHarris at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2015
Their website says it's yearly, and additionally has two "tiers" of account. I was all in favor until I read that.
posted by JHarris at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2015
Their website says it's yearly, and additionally has two "tiers" of account. I was all in favor until I read that
It just changed this year (Jan. 2015). I still think it's a worthwhile investment, especially if you're the type who's ever noted that, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product.
And yeah, it's interesting to read this as Tumblr prepares to make a big change that no one seemed to want to their basic style. I don't know why "Don't fuck with what works" is such a hard design concept to grasp for some people, but the human desire to tinker apparently overpowers everything else.
posted by protocoach at 5:34 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
It just changed this year (Jan. 2015). I still think it's a worthwhile investment, especially if you're the type who's ever noted that, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product.
And yeah, it's interesting to read this as Tumblr prepares to make a big change that no one seemed to want to their basic style. I don't know why "Don't fuck with what works" is such a hard design concept to grasp for some people, but the human desire to tinker apparently overpowers everything else.
posted by protocoach at 5:34 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, forgot to say: I got an account before January, I do have archiving turned on, and I am very happy with the service. I like to pay for things I use because that makes it likely I will continue to use them and that they will continue to be available for me. I like Maciej because, from what I can tell from his internet presence, he's an intelligent, kind person who works hard on a worthwhile project. Supporting good people and gaining an excellent service like Pinboard is a win-win for me.
posted by protocoach at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by protocoach at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
It just changed this year (Jan. 2015). I still think it's a worthwhile investment, especially if you're the type who's ever noted that, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product.
That is the kind of observation only those who aren't very poor can afford to make.
posted by JHarris at 5:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
That is the kind of observation only those who aren't very poor can afford to make.
posted by JHarris at 5:55 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And also, it isn't always true, it mocks the very possibility of altruism, it slaps the face of the open source movement and demands of them what do you really want???
posted by JHarris at 5:57 PM on September 2, 2015
posted by JHarris at 5:57 PM on September 2, 2015
JHarris, I think that's a bit unkind. The reason I view paying money for a handful of services (Pinboard, NewsBlur, MetaFilter, frex.) as a feature is that these things seem structurally less likely to vanish or be ruined for nefarious/stupid purposes by a larger corporate machine. It's also the reason I seek opportunities to financially support work in open source. People gotta eat. If people can eat, they are more likely to keep making the things I appreciate.
I wouldn't, for that matter, be able to work on FOSS projects very effectively if I didn't get paid to do it. (Some people can, and I am immensely grateful for their work, but it turns out I personally am lousy at doing useful work in my spare time while holding down a shitty day job.)
"If you aren't paying for the product, you are the product" is maybe flawed, but I think it's just getting at that structural reality. Anyway, I don't think this is someting you can only think about if you aren't flat broke. It's just a lot easier to act on if you have some money to spare for it.
posted by brennen at 6:07 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I wouldn't, for that matter, be able to work on FOSS projects very effectively if I didn't get paid to do it. (Some people can, and I am immensely grateful for their work, but it turns out I personally am lousy at doing useful work in my spare time while holding down a shitty day job.)
"If you aren't paying for the product, you are the product" is maybe flawed, but I think it's just getting at that structural reality. Anyway, I don't think this is someting you can only think about if you aren't flat broke. It's just a lot easier to act on if you have some money to spare for it.
posted by brennen at 6:07 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
'course, I also used to pay for Flickr, and look where that went. :\
posted by brennen at 6:16 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by brennen at 6:16 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know why "Don't fuck with what works" is such a hard design concept to grasp for some people, but the human desire to tinker apparently overpowers everything else.
Not just the impulse to tinker.
Perhaps especially the ascendancy of the idea of a design-driven product, right now careers are made on being able to add bullet-point involvement in product "improvements" and design changes to make the aesthetics of a product current (or trending).
posted by weston at 6:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not just the impulse to tinker.
Perhaps especially the ascendancy of the idea of a design-driven product, right now careers are made on being able to add bullet-point involvement in product "improvements" and design changes to make the aesthetics of a product current (or trending).
posted by weston at 6:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think that was well-said and nuanced, brennen, thanks for the response.
posted by JHarris at 7:08 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 7:08 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
And also, it isn't always true, it mocks the very possibility of altruism, it slaps the face of the open source movement and demands of them what do you really want???
"The open source movement" isn't running startups that pay salaries, health care costs, infrastructure costs, etc. Nor is it a business at all. It's a total non sequitur.
posted by kenko at 7:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
"The open source movement" isn't running startups that pay salaries, health care costs, infrastructure costs, etc. Nor is it a business at all. It's a total non sequitur.
posted by kenko at 7:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
But non-profits are, and there are prominent open-source software companies that are non-profits, most notably Mozilla, who don't aim for traditional profitability. And open source software is often worked on by for-profit companies, it is a legal structure that distances software from strategy and userbase manipulates
Usually the "if you're not a customer you're the product" tagline is used to as imply that one must constantly be wary (although some waryness is necessary), or that there is no one of the user's side, or that you must always pay if you want anything at all and shut up otherwise. That's bullshit. People pay whenever they use anything, money-free or money-costly: they pay in time and they pay in energy.
Some waryness is good, but I resent the implication that even using software has to be some kind of Darwinian struggle, and that a free product selling out its userbase shouldn't be resented.
Which, let's be clear, isn't what Pinboard is, it seems to have charged from the beginning, but we've kind of gotten off on this subject via the D-rail.
posted by JHarris at 8:14 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Usually the "if you're not a customer you're the product" tagline is used to as imply that one must constantly be wary (although some waryness is necessary), or that there is no one of the user's side, or that you must always pay if you want anything at all and shut up otherwise. That's bullshit. People pay whenever they use anything, money-free or money-costly: they pay in time and they pay in energy.
Some waryness is good, but I resent the implication that even using software has to be some kind of Darwinian struggle, and that a free product selling out its userbase shouldn't be resented.
Which, let's be clear, isn't what Pinboard is, it seems to have charged from the beginning, but we've kind of gotten off on this subject via the D-rail.
posted by JHarris at 8:14 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a much more compelling argument for switching to Pinboard than anything I actually read during the Great Schism. Phooey.
posted by wintersweet at 12:49 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by wintersweet at 12:49 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
This part brought to mind all those comments about Metafilter having an old-fashioned web interface. Maybe there's a point to that.
One counterintuitive thing about active communities is that they sometimes use clunky, outdated tools. This doesn't just apply fandom, you can find it in all kinds of places. I like to scuba dive, for example, but the main scuba site is a terribly crufty PHP message board.posted by alms at 12:59 PM on September 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Our first instinct as programmers is to want to make these tools better. But these terrible interfaces serve a protective function, where they keep the community insulated from drive-by visitors and require new contributors to endure a a period of apprenticeship and lurking.
Totally. Not that I think the interface is terrible here (by contrast to all those unfathomably horrible phpBB boards and whatnot), but it's sure as shit old-fashioned. Hurrah for stability and predictability of interface.
posted by brennen at 1:40 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by brennen at 1:40 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
The things that Maciej mentions as surprising are pretty much the things that draw me to female-oriented fandom: organized, collaborative, supportive, invested, etc. At its best, fandom (and specifically fanfic) can be Crone Island brought to life.
So yeah, a comprehensive Google Doc for feature suggestions with specific, organized methods of communication and writing? Have you seen A03? Of course.
posted by librarylis at 9:23 PM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
So yeah, a comprehensive Google Doc for feature suggestions with specific, organized methods of communication and writing? Have you seen A03? Of course.
posted by librarylis at 9:23 PM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
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