Just let it in.

October 19, 2015 7:35 PM

The first and final full trailer for Star Wars: The Force Awakens, first sequel to the Star Wars trilogy has been posted.

Related: Teaser 1, Teaser 2

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever.

posted by entropicamericana (555 comments total)

Han is a true believer now.
posted by guiseroom at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm guessing the scene that opens the trailer (with Rey in the ship(?)) also opens the movie.
posted by drezdn at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

that first trailer was still the best trailer.
posted by valkane at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

True Love was using the skills I've honed buying Radiohead tickets over the past decade to snag opening night 7 pm tickets for my husband.
posted by Windigo at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2015 [36 favorites]

Watto would have a field day with all that salvage.
posted by clavdivs at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

"Just let it in."

I love how the music starts as its own, transitions into the original theme in the middle, and slides back to its own theme at the end.

But it's not quite as powerful as the first trailer was, which was really a letter from Disney saying "We know. We're not going to shit on your memories again. We're going to get this right."

This trailer is for the people who didn't know the original movies like us old pharts did. The first trailer, that was the trailer for us.
posted by eriko at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2015 [25 favorites]

I'm probably speaking out of sheer optimism but almost every shot of this trailer shows more grounding and vision of Star Wars as a real place where real people live than any shot from the prequels.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2015 [69 favorites]

Meesa think itsa good!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2015 [47 favorites]

OK, but wait. At the beginning, is Ren climbing/salvaging on the bridge/tractor beam that Obi Wan turned off in A New Hope?
posted by ChuraChura at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2015

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever

ಠ~ಠ
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I will finish . . .
what you started . . .
What YOU started
I didn't staaaart it
posted by Countess Elena at 7:50 PM on October 19, 2015 [17 favorites]

Err, the *second* trailer. I forgot about the Sith Army Lightsaber trailer -- as did everybody else after that crashed Star Destroyer rolled into view in the second teaser.
posted by eriko at 7:50 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Meesa think itsa good!

Flagged like a third sith.
posted by eriko at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Oops, that last link should be:

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever
posted by entropicamericana at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Stop making me care about Starwars, Disney. Stop it! Daaaaagh, I... I can't... I can't help it!
posted by codacorolla at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

I have a complicated history with Star Wars, involving an insane ex and, as we all know, three pantloads of movie. But between this trailer and the immediate contrarian impulse to the "boycott" hashtag, I may yet be able to let myself go for this.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Nope, still not interested in watching this.

Unless 1:03 is factual evidence of the Endor Holocaust.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

Does Kylo Ren not know about the Emperor.

You know what would be jaw dropping in the next 3 movies (or piss people off)... If qnegu znhy was training Ren.
posted by drezdn at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2015

Fandango is totally crashed. Can't get tickets either on the web on a desktop computer, nor through the iPhone app. Somebody's getting fired.
posted by dnash at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2015

Mod note: Corrected final link, carry on.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2015

Does Kylo Ren not know about the Emperor.

Well, maybe not? Darth Vader went gallivanting around the Galaxy, but the Emperor not so much.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2015

So cool to see Leia, but is Mr. Metal Hand on R2D2, Luke Skywalker?
posted by sweetmarie at 7:58 PM on October 19, 2015

Definitely looks like a JJ Abrams film.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

but is Mr. Metal Hand on R2D2, Luke Skywalker?

Pretty sure it is.
posted by drezdn at 8:01 PM on October 19, 2015

Well, maybe not? Darth Vader went gallivanting around the Galaxy, but the Emperor not so much.

The explicit reveal of the Emperor as a Sith, rather than just a bad guy dictator, was basically limited to Luke, Vader, and the Emperor himself, and maybe some Death Star crewfolk. Everybody but Luke is dead, and Luke was brutally tortured, watched his father die saving his life, and then experienced through the Force the deaths of what, some thousands of people, from incredibly close range, as the Death Star was destroyed? I see a lot of reasons why people would be worshipping Vader but not the Emperor.
posted by protocoach at 8:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

Definitely looks like a JJ Abrams film.

You just had to ruin it, didn't you?
posted by valkane at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

Very excited at the prospect of a fourth Star Wars movie after so many decades.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2015 [117 favorites]

Oh man, check out this amazing leaked production still
posted by clockzero at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

Definitely looks like a JJ Abrams film.

Great guess! He actually did direct and co-write it.
posted by Soulfather at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2015 [20 favorites]

I think it's hilarious that they released it on twitter within minutes (or less) of it airing on tv.
posted by drezdn at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

From reddit: Mandalorian flag?
posted by drezdn at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever .

So weird to watch snippets of Star Wars scored to music other than John Williams. (Also, if my ears didn't deceive me, some of the Ben Burtt sound effects don't sound quite perfected yet.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:09 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Harrison Ford looks game, but a lot older than I had realized.

The trailer is terrible, but I'm sure if I had a kid I would take them to see it. It is strange that they have been making these films for almost 40 years and they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable. At least with CGI the explosions are bigger.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Great guess! He actually did direct and co-write it.

I don't have a problem with Abrams, and in fact like most of what he does. I also am not a Stars Wars fanboy and in the end don't care who writes or directs or stars in a Star Wars film. But really it's just gloomy-gloom-serious-drama-gloom with Abrams and I don't feel like that fits the universe. I felt no sense of excitement or adventure or mirth with this trailer, just gloomy-doom-gloom. Fuck was with that music?

More like Star Wars Episode Se7en! *flips down tinted targeting visor*
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Definitely looks like a JJ Abrams film.

These assholes don't make films, they make trailers.

The trailer is good.
posted by grobstein at 8:13 PM on October 19, 2015

I want to believe this won't suck like Abrams' other movies.

I like the idea of Han Solo as the new Obi-Wan, the connection to a vanished past. A grumpier, bitterer Obi-Wan.
posted by nom de poop at 8:13 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

drezdn: “I think it's hilarious that they released it on twitter within minutes (or less) of it airing on tv.”

Dad asked me if I was going to record it. I said no because I knew it would be up on every social media site and YouTube in mere moments.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I like the idea of Han Solo as the new Obi-Wan

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no.... Here, take this bullwhip!"
posted by valkane at 8:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

Has anyone else figured out why the force can awaken? Was there an interim prequel called "The Force Takes a Nap"? What does it mean to have a universal (if mystical) non-personal entity awaken (or not be awake)? Could the electroweak force also suddenly nod off and/or wake up?
posted by weston at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

Related: This deleted scene (GIF) from The Empire Strikes Back has been floating around Reddit today. It's quite silly, and shows just how much the quality of the original films depended on the services of a top-notch editor(s).
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2015 [50 favorites]

I want to believe this won't suck like Abrams' other movies.

Eeeehhhh. I mean, at least the last three films were so bad that it should be an improvement. The Clone Wars TV show convinced me that I am completely happy with passable Star Wars!

Every JJ Abrams thing I've ever seen was like "Huh, that was OK" and then I forgot it immediately. Except for that second Star Trek movie which was legit horrible.

I actually thought this trailer was pretty bad. Kind of chaotic and overdone. The first one was a lot better.
posted by selfnoise at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The Force Will Be Ready In Just a Minute Jeez
posted by nom de poop at 8:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [28 favorites]

The Force Will Be Ready In Just a Minute Jeez
posted by nom de poop at 8:19 PM on October 19 [+] [!]

I never do this, but eponysterical.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:20 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

Where's 3pio?
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:20 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

The recurring mass memory loss between clone wars-rebellion-post rebellion is curious, if consistent. There are clearly no camera phones or Internet in a galaxy far, far away.
posted by echocollate at 8:21 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Fuck was with that music?

It's...the Star Wars music?
posted by schoolgirl report at 8:21 PM on October 19, 2015 [16 favorites]

I am excited. I feel like that's okay.
posted by greenland at 8:22 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

I never really get excited for movies anymore, but.... ERMEHGERD STAR WARS
posted by littlesq at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

The recurring mass memory loss between clone wars-rebellion-post rebellion is curious, if consistent. There are clearly no camera phones or Internet in a galaxy far, far away.

I think it's healthy for them to play loose with the lore. It was never really about the lore. One of the big mistakes of the prequels was trying to do too much worldbuilding. Neal Stephenson wrote a daft defense of this back then; in hindsight it is only more obvious he was wrong.
posted by grobstein at 8:25 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

It is strange that they have been making these films for almost 40 years and they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable. At least with CGI the explosions are bigger.

Yes, after six movies they should suddenly incorporate correct physics, and also have no sound in space. And no explosions in space for that matter.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [37 favorites]

Has anyone else figured out why the force can awaken?

I think the Empire's purge of Jedi and Force-sensitives is still canon, so I assume the awakening is the return of Force-sensitives to the galaxy.

I also am not a Stars Wars fanboy and in the end don't care who writes or directs or stars in a Star Wars film. But really it's just gloomy-gloom-serious-drama-gloom with Abrams and I don't feel like that fits the universe.

...how would you know, then? Star Wars wasn't all bright and sunny. The film that's universally considered the best opens with Luke almost freezing to death, then rolls into a massive defeat for the good guys, and features an old friend betraying his friends, a hero being frozen in terrible agony, and another hero learning that his mentor lied to him and that his father is the one trying to kill him.
posted by protocoach at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2015 [83 favorites]

God, that scene where Chewie and Han are lowering their hands from behind their heads in disbelief...that's gonna be where Leia (or god forbid, some Ewoks) are popping out of an AT-ST after blowing up some storm troopers, isn't it.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:30 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yes, after six movies they should suddenly incorporate correct physics, and also have no sound in space.
We didn't have this problem with Serenity. I'm just saying.

of course, we wouldn't have Mal without Han, soooo. Yeah. I'm geeking. I have the capacity to geek.
posted by valkane at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

God, that scene where Chewie and Han are lowering their hands from behind their heads in disbelief...that's gonna be where Leia (or god forbid, some Ewoks) are popping out of an AT-ST after blowing up some storm troopers, isn't it.

"Meesa come rescue yousa!"
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [31 favorites]

JJ Abrams is quite the canny businessman. He knows how to market his product for maximum profitability.
posted by KHAAAN! at 8:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

YUB NUUUUUUUUB!!!!!!
posted by Behemoth at 8:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

I just want a Gammorean in an X-Wing. C'mon, JJ, you know it would be great.
posted by protocoach at 8:33 PM on October 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

This deleted scene (GIF) from The Empire Strikes Back

Vader's head tilt is just the perfect Seriously, guys?
posted by gottabefunky at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I wonder if Joss would have switched karma with JJ. Personally, I'd rather have a whedon blockbuster star wars re-boot than what he did with the avengers. But then again, I'm more invested on the star wars front.

Anyway, it's something to think about.
posted by valkane at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2015

ERMEHGERD STAR WARS STER WERS
posted by gottabefunky at 8:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [20 favorites]

We didn't have this problem with Serenity. I'm just saying.

Well, there was that rad scene in that episode of Firefly where they were being directed into the electric net where Mal and Jayne went outside the ship and fired the shot into the pirates' windshield. That was pretty cool, what with the 'no sound in space' aspect that seems to elude everyone. Still plenty of gravity everywhere. I wonder what technology can simulate a fundamental natural law.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:40 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan at all. But there is something deeply satisfying about seeing a black make weilding a lightsaber and being the hero.

Otherwise, the scenes look and feel modern, like the series is final beong allowed to grow up a bit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

I wonder if Joss would have switched karma with JJ. Personally, I'd rather have a whedon blockbuster star wars re-boot than what he did with the avengers. But then again, I'm more invested on the star wars front.

I think the light banter from the original trilogy is what I missed most in the prequels (McGregor's Obi-Wan comes closest as it goes on, but has no one to play off of). But having the banter ratcheted up to 11 would be kind of unbearable. And the family sitcom approach of Rebels isn't much better.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 8:44 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

It is strange that they have been making these films for almost 40 years and they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable.

You've got to give this to Abrams -- he at least seems well aware that space has three dimensions and doesn't just scoot his spaceships around like matchbox cars.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:46 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

doesn't just scoot his spaceships around like matchbox cars.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:46 on October 20

you leave TNG out of this
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:50 PM on October 19, 2015 [24 favorites]

It is strange that they have been making these films for almost 40 years and they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable.

These are not the films you're looking for.
posted by Justinian at 8:57 PM on October 19, 2015 [49 favorites]

doesn't just scoot his spaceships around like matchbox cars.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and mention the fact that lucas was obsessed with speeding race cars and just wanted to adapt that feeling to space ships in a way that brought a certain, um, artitude (sic) to his cinemaphotography (sic). In a new way. That we hadn't really seen before. And it looked pretty cool.

And then he went and invented Indiana Jones, so you can take your physics and, um, go read some hard sci-fi. You okay with that? Cuz I'm definitely okay with it. Indiana Jones!
posted by valkane at 8:59 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

So Luke is the "bad" guy in this, right? He's not on the poster, he's not in the trailer, the bad guy mentions finishing what Vader started, and we know Luke's in the movie.

As bad as the prequels were, there was one interesting thing in there: the idea that the Force was out of balance, not because there was too much Dark side of the Force, but because the Jedi had become too powerful. It'd be interesting if that had happened again and it was Luke who was going to bring balance.
posted by nushustu at 9:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

There were so many...things! Like, physical, touchable, real things! I can't tell if it's just that CG has gotten that much better, or if the price of green paint went up so they decided to go old-school and have people walk on the "ground" and hold "actual objects".
posted by Bugbread at 9:03 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

Mr.Encyclopedia: I'm probably speaking out of sheer optimism but almost every shot of this trailer shows more grounding and vision of Star Wars as a real place where real people live than any shot from the prequels.

I know, these fanvids are getting pretty advanced, aren't they?
posted by filthy light thief at 9:06 PM on October 19, 2015

I'm not saying I wish that anyone other than J. J. Abrams had done this movie, but Leonard Nimoy's last acting credit was not the Star Trek reboot but Family Guy: The Quest For Stuff and I think that's not a worse thing.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:07 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The marketing for this movie has been outstanding. People are actually buying tickets for a movie 2 months in advance, I'm sure if they had only sold physical tickets at theaters they could've achieved the Apple line effect with people sleeping in the streets to be the first. Which I guess was originally a phenomenon associated with films like Star Wars. I know that the first I heard of it was as a little kid watching the documentary about the film that played before or after Star Wars on Betamax.
posted by cell divide at 9:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever.

... "It's a spectacle light-years ahead of its time."

God damn it, there they go confusing units of distance with units of time again.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 9:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [27 favorites]

"There are stories about what happened."

"It's true, -all of it- the six films, the Clone Wars TV series, and most things published after April 25, 2014."
posted by radwolf76 at 9:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable.]

Also, the light saber thermodynamics are absurd. Then again, if believability is your metric, perhaps this is not the film series you're looking for.
posted by cell divide at 9:14 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Has anyone else figured out why the force can awaken?

My preferred interpretation is that, since the force seems to derive from semi-sentient organelles, the saga would take a turn towards Greg Bear's Blood Music, and everyone in the empire eventually becomes amalgamated into a superintelligent biogoo.
posted by chortly at 9:15 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

this is a series that is literally about magical space wizards

obviously making sure that the science of space travel checks out is going to be a very high priority
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2015 [41 favorites]

Got tickets! IMAX! it's assigned seating so we don't have to be in line for hours to get good seats! (A more elegant ticketing for a more civilized age!) It's at 7pm on Dec 17, which also agrees my me since I'm not getting any younger. Seeing it again with the friends I was in line with for the 3 special edition midnight release, so we're all excited! Only difference is that we're not going partying afterwards cause life... and I predict a snow storm cause that's what happened the last 3 times.

It probably won't be as good as I hope it'll be, since those trailers managed to get me all excited about Star Wars again which I thought would never happen, but it really can't be worse than the prequels. And frankly, any new material with Han, Chewie, Leia, the Falcon, XWings & Tie-Fighters is good enough for me.
posted by coust at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Anybody else a bit curious about the familiar look of the ship at 0:27?
posted by mwhybark at 9:18 PM on October 19, 2015

But on a more serious note, I'm quite pleased that they brought Carrie Fisher back for this one.

I don't want to get too far off topic, but that's the reason I will not see the new Terminator - because they included Arnold but screwed over Linda Hamilton. Fuck those assholes, refusing to cast any woman over 30. As it happens I hear the Terminator movie sucks and I'm not missing much, but that was the real reason I passed on it in the theaters.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 9:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

Man, lightsabers in the rain look really freaking cool. And I like the Ridleyesque first couple of moments when she's descending into what I'm guessing is that crashed ship.
posted by valkane at 9:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Cool in-atmosphere dogfighting aside it looks refreshingly free of Abrams' Opposite Day approach with Trek. No Chewie hates Han, no Life Star, no Darth Mater, etc. I'm crossing everything!

(If we get a climactic "No, I am your daughter" showdown with Rey I will Force-noogie someone).
posted by comealongpole at 9:29 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

this is the most ridiculous ticket buying experience i've had since you've been able to buy tickets online. every site that isn't fandango(and a lot of the good theaters here don't play nice with that) is completely DDoS'd. And all my friends are too busy pressing ctrl+r to reply to my texts about what showing they're even trying to see -_-
posted by emptythought at 9:30 PM on October 19, 2015

Here's a theory based essentially on nothing: Claymore lightsaber guy and the main protagonist are Han and Leia's twins (or Luke's progeny).
posted by codacorolla at 9:33 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I haven't been this excited since we went to see Return of the Jedi on my 10th birthday. Inside my head it's all SQUEEEE (please don't suck,please don't suck).

I am hoping Abrams is able to just let the magic space wizards do their thing and not be all snarky and Highway to the Danger Zone like he was with Trek. I don't want smarm, I want zippy Han and Leia dialogue and tense escapes and heroes being brave against stupid big odds and to feel like I'm flying through space when I'm sitting in my movie seat. PLEASE GIVE ME THESE THINGS AGAIN.
posted by emjaybee at 9:34 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'M NOT CRYING YOU'RE CRYING.

SHUT UP.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2015 [22 favorites]

And BB talks, not just droid beeps!?
posted by sweetmarie at 9:45 PM on October 19, 2015

It's...the Star Wars music?

At the beginning? That was a Philip Glass b-side.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:45 PM on October 19, 2015

I was never into Star Wars that much, despite being a Space Opera fan on his second complete run of the Mass Effect series and my entire response was


YES SPACE BATTLES, SPACE GUNS, AND SPACE HUGS AND SPACE FEELINGS
posted by The Whelk at 9:51 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]

Is it wrong that I cried a little?
posted by karst at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2015

(Luke is clearly the guy in the mask I mean it's the biggest figure in the poster and he's not there I mean c'mon)
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

So Luke is the "bad" guy in this, right? He's not on the poster, he's not in the trailer, the bad guy mentions finishing what Vader started, and we know Luke's in the movie.

Dude's arc in the original trilogy is dude just getting creepier and creepier about how badical he is, so that would make a ton of sense.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:55 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

I would normally say that's too on the nose, but this is J.J. Abrams we're talking about. I'd say that's the best theory running.
posted by codacorolla at 9:56 PM on October 19, 2015

There's a shot of Ren without the mask in the trailer. Doesn't look much like Luke.
posted by Diskeater at 9:57 PM on October 19, 2015

Status remains: cautiously optimistic.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:58 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

True Love was using the skills I've honed buying Radiohead tickets over the past decade to snag opening night 7 pm tickets for my husband.

I kept seeing stuff about sites crashing and I managed to buy tickets easily with no issue several hours before they were supposed to go on sale? (Assuming that they weren't supposed to actually be up until after the trailer aired on TV. But they totally were waaayyyy up for Chicago.)

Actually, now that I think about it, this would be fitting given how my experiences with acquiring ridiculously good radiohead tickets has gone historically.

As for the trailer... I dunno. This is definitely a trailer for a movie that exists and looks like it was made in 2015! The first teaser was a non-entity for me, and the second one was where I got the, "HEY, WAIT, MAYBE THEY MADE A STARRED WHARFS," feeling others are getting now. (Watching people on youtube burst into tears at the end of that second teaser was fun.) This trailer confirmed that a woman and a black dude are the core of this one, and they went and got the story guy who said no to Lucas sometimes until Lucas drove him off to come say no to Abrams, so sure, yes, fine. I'm in.

As far as Abrams goes, I am way more interested in finding out what Rian Johnson's cooking up for the next one. Abrams making a very Star Wars-y movie in That Other Setting first is a weird fluke of history if he didn't fuck this one up. I also can't imagine the pressure that comes with having to helm the first launch of something Disney paid literally four billion dollars to do. Like big budget studio film making already seems pretty ridiculous before you put that kind of extra weight on it.
posted by sparkletone at 9:58 PM on October 19, 2015

Especially since we already know that Kylo Ren is played by Adam Driver, I'm going to go not-very-far-out-on-a-limb and say that Kylo Ren is not Luke.
posted by protocoach at 9:59 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

There's a shot of Ren without the mask in the trailer. Doesn't look much like Luke.

When was that?
posted by chimaera at 9:59 PM on October 19, 2015

Luke would clearly be afraid of turning into his father so no doubt he's in hiding, maybe training select Jedi or just being a weird Yoda-alike hermit now. if the "force awakens" and force-sensitive people either switch on all X-Men like or become valuable commodities to either side, the last remaining Jedi would be very, very much in demand. Willing or not.

I mean, if you wanted to follow screenwriting logic. Bring in the old trio to introduce the new trio.
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 PM on October 19, 2015

So, wait, are y'all struggling to get tickets on opening day, or just get tickets period? Because I was planning to take my kids sometime between Christmas and New Years, figuring I could just, like, go to the theater and buy a ticket like a human being, since it won't be opening weekend, but now I find out people are buying tickets two months in advance, so you've got me panicked.
posted by Bugbread at 10:03 PM on October 19, 2015

Also its a long shot but I hope for the reveal Mark Hamil still has his big weird beard.

I like his big weird beard.
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

When was that?

About 1:55 in. I'm on mobile so I can't easily link.
posted by Diskeater at 10:07 PM on October 19, 2015

So, wait, are y'all struggling to get tickets on opening day, or just get tickets period?

There is literally no reason to buy tickets now beyond "because I can" unless you really care about some bit of physical swag your theater of choice is offering (a friend of mine really wants the Mondo pint glass that Alamo Draft House is offering, I guess). For me, it was as painless as any other movie ticket purchase, and I don't need to really coordinate with other people, so I might as well see it in the crowd that I know will be most likely to be packed with the kind of total obsessive that freaked out over the second teaser.

But if these showings sell out, they're going to add more. Theaters are going to soak up every bit of of this they can and then add a few more showings to boot. It will seriously not be hard to see this in the ~normal~ manner except maybe if you're dead set in being in one of the first showings.
posted by sparkletone at 10:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Harrison Ford looks game

That one time Conan paid Harrison Ford $1000 if he would tell him something about the new Star Wars film.
posted by sparkletone at 10:11 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

I've got a pretty specific window, though. I'll only be in the US until New Years day or so, and I'd like to take my kids to see what an American movie theater is like before we leave...
posted by Bugbread at 10:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I made a lot of Gollum-esque "preeeeccioooussss" noises while watching this the first time, then transitioned quickly into ugly crying because feelings. Also I want to make out with the three main characters already and probably the villains too so basically what I'm saying is forget Halloween and Thanksgiving, lightspeed to December, please.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:13 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Bugbread, that's for the 1st day, it might be crowded for the first weeks, but there will probably enough showings and the ticketing will be "normal". I checked and on Cineplex (Canadian heh!), you can't buy tickets for the other days yet.
posted by coust at 10:14 PM on October 19, 2015

I've got a pretty specific window, though.

The thing today is just for the first day of screenings. This movie is going to be playing on an absolutely ridiculous number of screens even by current Big Event Movie standards. This is a PR move that lets them say, "LOOK HOW EXCITED PEOPLE ARE," and makes theaters happy because it's guaranteed money in the bank. You'll be fine.
posted by sparkletone at 10:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Thanks. I was getting a bit panicky there...
posted by Bugbread at 10:17 PM on October 19, 2015

The film that's universally considered the best opens with Luke almost freezing to death, then rolls into a massive defeat for the good guys, and features an old friend betraying his friends, a hero being frozen in terrible agony, and another hero learning that his mentor lied to him and that his father is the one trying to kill him.

And the guy that wrote that movie co-wrote this one.

Bonus: First Star Wars trailer ever

1. Star Wars. No "A New Hope" retcon.
2. Hey, that was before they had the Star Wars font.
3. "...this may all be happening right now..."? I thought it was a long time ago.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:21 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

There is something magical about watching this trailer. Star Wars immediately transports me to an internal place of being a kid, both too close to the TV and ready to jump around, swinging my lightsaber around the house. I don't have such pure imagination near enough as an adult. Count me in.
posted by Jeff Morris at 10:21 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Anybody else a bit curious about the familiar look of the ship at 0:27?

Isn't that Luke's garaged ship from the first Star Wars, shown in the scene where he's talking with C3P0 about R2's restraining bolt?
posted by zippy at 10:21 PM on October 19, 2015

ITT: Confusion about the differences between the roles of directors, producers, and writers.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:24 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I just want a Dianoga in an X-Wing. C'mon, JJ, you know it would be great.
posted by Guy Smiley at 10:24 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I just want a duck in an X-Wing. C'mon, JJ, you know it would be great.

"What's a duck?"
posted by Guy Smiley at 10:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

"What's a Duck?"
posted by radwolf76 at 10:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]

Rey scavenging is very reminiscent of "Nauscaa" for me.
posted by wormwood23 at 10:33 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

The recurring mass memory loss between clone wars-rebellion-post rebellion is curious, if consistent. There are clearly no camera phones or Internet in a galaxy far, far away.

People forget important things all the time. Like, remember that time there was almost a nuclear war between India and Pakistan? There was a direct assault on India's parliament. Thousands were killed in military engagements that almost consumed 1.5 billion people in nuclear war.

That was 13 and a bit years ago. Less than a generation.

Yes, there's a Wikipedia article. When's the last time you visited it? Thought about it? Mentioned it to your kids, so they would remember an important part of contemporary history? If you have a connection to those countries, you'll have some informed, engaged answers. Otherwise? I think a bunch of people reading this comment just high-tailed it to Wikipedia.

This is a bit of a side point, but the idea that the Internet will remember for us is mistaken. The Internet stores. Remembering is an act. Many things that are stored never get retrieved. Kapersky recently commissioned a study that seems to indicate that far from augmenting our memories, the Internet may make it more difficult to remember things, since we can simply retrive and regurgitate. This is a blessing for censors, because it means that even when information can be retrieved, it may not sustain itself in our minds.

Add a scenario where you remove anything stored, or the ability to retrieve it, or just promote a culture where lots of people in the West don't really care about what happens in India and Pakistan, I'll buy cultural amnesia in a hot minute. Hell, in China what happened at Tiananmen Square isn't exactly forgotten, but it's just not considered that important. There are incentives not to think about it. There's a lack of clarity about what it was due to pervasive censorship. That can be enough, and our phones won't save us.
posted by mobunited at 10:38 PM on October 19, 2015 [67 favorites]

Han Solo describing great deeds and fairy tale wonders from the past to twentysomethings living in the wreckage of it is a perfect summary of the Boomer/Millennial relationship.
posted by mobunited at 10:40 PM on October 19, 2015 [43 favorites]

"What's a duck?"

You get me, man. I saw the promo for the next episode of Rebels, in which Ezra says they're "sitting mynocks", and I was so, so, so disappointed.
posted by The Tensor at 10:44 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Han: "The Dark Side.
      The Jedi.
      I Fired First.
      It's all true."
posted by i_have_a_computer at 10:45 PM on October 19, 2015 [39 favorites]

Rey scavenging is very reminiscent of "Nausicaa" for me.

I got that vibe from the costume and the sense of scale and decay the shot choices gave off. I'm way okay with this even if it's just a passing thing!
posted by sparkletone at 10:47 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

People forget important things all the time. Like, remember that time there was almost a nuclear war between India and Pakistan?

The thing is, though, a nuclear war is a pretty all-or-nothing affair—once somebody pushes a button, it's going to be a pretty bad afternoon for the human race. So any day when there was "almost a nuclear war" could also be fairly described as a day when nothing out of the ordinary happened (and thank God).
posted by The Tensor at 10:48 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

that first trailer was still the best trailer.



Not gonna lie, I just watched R2D2 fall over fifteen times.


Like looking in a mirror.
posted by louche mustachio at 10:50 PM on October 19, 2015

One of the things I hope/wish for for the new film, but suspect I won't see, is for them to introduce a new type of monogeographical planet based on real-world-Earth locations. I saw Crumbs recently, and the Ethopian geography is just jaw-dropping. If they had popped over to Iceland to get some Korriban-y lava goodness that would have been great, too.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:53 PM on October 19, 2015

Oh, welp, never mind. I guess they are doing that!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:56 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Man, lightsabers in the rain look really freaking cool.


Genndy Tartakovsky did it.
( 3:17 for the impatient )
posted by mikelieman at 10:57 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]

Oh, welp, never mind. I guess they are doing that!
Will Luke be found on/emerge from Tython, then?
posted by linux at 11:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't know much about cinematography, but some of the shots seem a little too dynamic and modern, like the long zoom in on Ren and the crazy swoop around the two male leads (Finn and Dameron). And the hyperspace shot, even if it does look incredibly cool. It just feels like Abrams drawing too much attention to the camerawork, which didn't really happen with the original trilogy. I just might be more surprised given all the talk from the crew about emphasizing practical effects. It would've been fun to see something that looked like it was done three years after Jedi, just more epic in scope and with cleaner effects.

I'm also hoping there's a conscious decision to avoid the big chaotic "kitchen sink" finale which has become standard with the Marvel movies. I know Kasdan commented on not trying to make the movie too long like a lot of blockbusters now.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 11:15 PM on October 19, 2015

Making a new Star Wars movie is probably the hardest thing any filmmaker could ever do. People are SO invested in this, and there are so many ways to get it completely wrong.

The first movie came out nearly 40 years ago. It was inspired by things like Flash Gordon serials that had come out 40 years before that. There's been enormous change in what we expect from films, largely because of the Star Wars movies themselves. Abrams can either make a retro 70s movie to capture the feel of the original, or he can try to continue the series while trying to hold on to the right elements and change others.

The trailer looks big and bold, but the original movies were pretty big too (the space battle at the end of Jedi had hundreds of on-screen elements). I just hope they've settled on a way to make things big without making them boring, because there's been an awful lot of movies lately that have managed to make epic battles into incredibly boring eyesores.
posted by teponaztli at 11:37 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

The effect on Kylo Ren's voice is really cool and reminiscent of Vader. But it's also so obviously Adam Driver's voice that it took me out of it a little. I still have a hard time separating him from his role on Girls, and that's not really a character that fits the Star Wars universe.
posted by painquale at 11:42 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Being that this is a JJ Abrams affair I fully expect seven more films and 21 years before we find out they're actually all in Force-heaven
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:59 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

It was actually all a dream by a space cumberbatch
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

just want a duck in an X-Wing. C'mon, JJ, you know it would be great.

Why a duck?

why-a no chicken?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:11 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

But it's also so obviously Adam Driver's voice that it took me out of it a little. I still have a hard time separating him from his role on Girls, and that's not really a character that fits the Star Wars universe.

I dunno, I am rather enjoying imagining that.

Kylo Ren having some sort of profanity laden existential tantrum. Cutting random things in half with his light saber, then breaking it and shouting "FUCK!" and tossing it on the ground.

Feels right to me.
posted by louche mustachio at 12:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

So, wait, are y'all struggling to get tickets on opening day, or just get tickets period?

Just opening weekend. I'm looking at sunday night that weekend and it's almost wide open, actually.

But if these showings sell out, they're going to add more. Theaters are going to soak up every bit of of this they can and then add a few more showings to boot. It will seriously not be hard to see this in the ~normal~ manner except maybe if you're dead set in being in one of the first showings.

The nicest imax in seattle(the just refitted giant boeing sphere thing) is literally doing 24 hour showing that weekend and they're all selling out. Only for the first couple nights though, then once again, wide open.

I looked and i don't even think there's more than one or two tickets sold for anyone of the ones after that weekend. Maybe a few the next weekend. After christmas? Nah.
posted by emptythought at 12:25 AM on October 20, 2015

and there are so many ways to get it completely wrong.

Nah, you just George-Costanza-rule the prequels, and you are pretty much golden. Luckily appearances suggest they are doing that.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:25 AM on October 20, 2015

Being that this is a JJ Abrams affair I fully expect seven more films and 21 years before we find out they're actually all in Force-heaven

Abrams must hate how much of a role he's perceived to have with Lost's later seasons.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 12:27 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Oh man, Luke better not be the bad guy. Although it fits..just godammit, I was 5 when the original came out and I cannot take that.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:28 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I don't think they'd(by which i mean disney) actually let him do that. I think Luke is going to get some "OMG IT'S HIM" cameo, and maybe some bust-in-and-help-everyone at a critical point bit and otherwise not be in it if he even is at all.

It wouldn't surprise me if the movie even ends with us just seeing the back of his head and then cuts to black, or something, and that's all he's in it at all. That would be an awful big audience-cheer teaser for the sequel.
posted by emptythought at 12:31 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, that may be the second most anticipated trailer to come out today... HERE'S #1. (Spoiler: VentureBrosSeason6)
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:35 AM on October 20, 2015 [17 favorites]

There's one image of Hamill as Luke that was going around on media sites earlier. Looks like he's doing 3D scanning for action figures, games, or maybe digital effects. His appearance isn't a huge surprise, so I'm curious why they left him out of even the latest trailer and poster.

It maybe should be noted that Kasdan and Abrams took on writing duties after the first draft was done, and the biggest change seems to be giving more focus on the older characters instead of the younger ones. I suppose it's possible Luke still has a very limited role, but that'd probably disappoint too many of the fans they're trying to win back.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 12:45 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

"What's a duck?"

Twenty dollars, same as in town.
posted by bryon at 12:46 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I wonder what it was like in 1977 for people who recognized James Earl Jones' voice from his previous work.

I was also brought out of the original film by Vader's gait, which was so obviously that of someone looking right, then left, then right again, before crossing the road.
posted by biffa at 1:31 AM on October 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

"There are stories about what happened."

"Its true...all of it."

"Omigod, you shagged a Wookiee????"
posted by biffa at 1:39 AM on October 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'm curious why they left him out of even the latest trailer

Isn't that his cybernetic hand touching R2 at 1:40?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:48 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

So Luke is the "bad" guy in this, right? He's not on the poster, he's not in the trailer

I thought it was Luke at 1.04 but seeing it again, I guess it must be that Lewin Davis guy. Which makes me wonder... is the Lewin Davis guy Luke's son? A pilot like his father?
posted by popcassady at 2:02 AM on October 20, 2015

Well, I got goosebumps. It helps to watch the trailer on the biggest, highest-def screen you can.
posted by Happy Dave at 2:09 AM on October 20, 2015

I'm as old as Yoda, have never been a Lucas fan (and I've worked for the man), was no huge fan of the original movies, HATED the prequels (and am happy to report that I got to see all three of 'em at ILM crew screenings, which kept me from contributing to George's retirement fund), and I can honestly say this is the very first SW movie I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing.
posted by dbiedny at 2:27 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Dude knows that if he screws this up, everyone will call him "Jar Jar Abrams" for the rest of his life.
posted by straight at 2:35 AM on October 20, 2015 [31 favorites]

Daisy Ridley reaction video
John Boyega reaction video
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:38 AM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

I'm actually not really hyped for this because of what a crock of crap those two Star Trek films turned out to be, storywise.
posted by Catblack at 2:41 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm actually not really hyped for this because of what a crock of crap those two Star Trek films turned out to be, storywise.

I was just thinking about that... still mildly hyped / fingers crossed
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:03 AM on October 20, 2015

I'm actually not really hyped for this because of what a crock of crap those two Star Trek films turned out to be, storywise.

That line where he goes "no, I am not... our father" made me burst out laughing in the theater.
posted by teponaztli at 4:10 AM on October 20, 2015

The Daisy Ridley and John Boyega reaction videos are better than the trailer itself for making me excited about this movie.
posted by KingEdRa at 4:24 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

John Boyega reaction video

That video is instant happiness juice.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 4:31 AM on October 20, 2015

Han Solo describing great deeds and fairy tale wonders from the past to twentysomethings living in the wreckage of it is a perfect summary of the Boomer/Millennial relationship.

Star Wars ( the original trilogy, at least ) belongs to my generation, thank you very much. We were even called the Star Wars Generation, before that damn X was saddled on us. It would be nice if you didn't ignore us.

I hope there are some middle-aged characters in this new thing to set the record straight, and to tell these new flyboys not to get too cocky.
posted by KHAAAN! at 4:33 AM on October 20, 2015 [14 favorites]

Is it going to be seeable anywhere that is NOT in 3D?
posted by jfuller at 4:37 AM on October 20, 2015

Is it going to be seeable anywhere that is NOT in 3D?

It's going to be in 3D?
Honestly, I had no idea.
And, to be fair, little interest (in 3D).
posted by Mezentian at 4:44 AM on October 20, 2015

I like it. Interesting to see how Abrams' style blends with Lucas'. This is the first Star Wars film with a director who's not Lucas and who has a distinctive visual style of his own (and is allowed to apply it). Kershner and Marquand were competent but not great stylists and even if they were, Lucas didn't allow them to deviate much from his way of doing things.

It's funny to compare this to Star Trek where Abrams was allowed to make massive changes to characters, back stories and art design and people bitched but mostly got over it. In comparison, there's no way that he'd be allowed to redesign the Millennium Falcon like he redesigned the Enterprise. If one switch on the dashboard is out of place, people will freak.

I'm not sure how I feel about Kasdan's participation, yeah he wrote Empire and Raiders but he hasn't made a good film since maybe Grand Canyon in the early nineties. And his last film was something called Darling Companion which I've never heard of but seems to have a 22% rating on RT.
posted by octothorpe at 4:44 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

, and to tell these new flyboys not to get too cocky.

... because it's not like dusting crops back home?
You know, on Tatooine, where they harvest moisture, and have no crops.

What the hell is up with that line?
posted by Mezentian at 4:45 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I hope there are some middle-aged characters in this new thing to set the record straight

Some leaked reports suggest a scene in the Galactic Senate where Han pushes for higher taxes on wage earners in the Galaxy as a way to extend social benefits to his age cohort, even though he and his fellow "Space Boomers" are the ones responsible for blowing the Galactic budget surplus; this stings of course, as he and Chewie benefitted from higher wages and cheap housing and education, a fact he refuses to acknowledge.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:46 AM on October 20, 2015 [26 favorites]

It's funny to compare this to Star Trek where Abrams was allowed to make massive changes to characters, back stories and art design and people bitched but mostly got over it.

No. I, for one, am not over it.
posted by Mezentian at 4:47 AM on October 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

What were the final words of the trailer? Sounded like Princess Leia/Carrie Fisher saying a name (guessing: of her (grand)daughter)?
posted by spock at 4:49 AM on October 20, 2015

I don't care how much you dislike JJ Abrams: if this movie were written and directed by a cockroach it would be better than where George Lucas took the franchise.
posted by spock at 4:53 AM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]

Oh man, Luke better not be the bad guy

I suspect that's about as likely as the scenario of C3PO being the bad guy (as he hasn't been in the teasers or the trailer, either). Then again, that has possibilities...
posted by thomas j wise at 4:56 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I suspect that's about as likely as the scenario of C3PO being the bad guy (as he hasn't been in the teasers or the trailer, either). Then again, that has possibilities...

WHY DO YOU AWAKEN ME WITHOUT SKIN? WHAT OF OUR BARGAIN?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:04 AM on October 20, 2015 [21 favorites]

There are clearly no camera phones or Internet in a galaxy far, far away.

The interstellar ping times were awful.

But having the banter ratcheted up to 11 would be kind of unbearable.

How about a Quentin Tarantino Star Wars?
posted by DarkForest at 5:04 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I didn't even try to get tickets for opening day because there may be bloodshed in the theaters if this movie sucks.
posted by double block and bleed at 5:05 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's funny to compare this to Star Trek where Abrams was allowed to make massive changes to characters, back stories and art design and people bitched but mostly got over it.

No. I, for one, am not over it.


Damn right.
posted by KHAAAN! at 5:10 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

So there's only about half a dozen lens flair shots in that 2:35 trailer, I'm impressed that Abrams could hold himself back so much.
posted by octothorpe at 5:11 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

The goose that laid golden eggs.
posted by rmmcclay at 5:12 AM on October 20, 2015

Bloom County.
posted by octothorpe at 5:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm gonna go out on another limb here and suggest that Kylo Ren and probably Kylo Rey *gasp* are the twin offspring of luke sKYwaLker and the O RLY owl Wampa.

Wake up Bantheeple!
posted by comealongpole at 5:33 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Han Solo describing great deeds and fairy tale wonders from the past to twentysomethings living in the wreckage of it is a perfect summary of the Boomer/Snake Person relationship.

Man, installing that "Snake Person" Chrome extension is easily the best thing that's happened to my web browsing experience for, like, 15 years.
posted by Ipsifendus at 5:38 AM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]

mobunited please MeMail me your address so I can send you your No-Prize.
posted by echocollate at 5:40 AM on October 20, 2015

Man, installing that "Snake Person" Chrome extension is easily the best thing that's happened to my web browsing experience for, like, 15 years.

Let's see, the extension muted the impact of something that probably supported the reason you installed it in the first place so yeah, this is what I meant by the disinclination to know things making forgetting plausible.
posted by mobunited at 5:49 AM on October 20, 2015

The eighth and ninth movies should have "The Empire Never Ended" graffiti start popping up, and then bam straight into the 10th movie which will be called "Ubik."
posted by drezdn at 5:53 AM on October 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

"Meesa come rescue yousa!"

Flagged like a fourth prequel.
posted by eriko at 5:57 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

It is strange that they have been making these films for almost 40 years and they still can't get the physics of flying spaceships to look remotely believable.

It helps if you remember that Star Wars is fantasy in space. It's not science fiction.
posted by Foosnark at 5:58 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I think Luke is going to get some "OMG IT'S HIM" cameo, and maybe some bust-in-and-help-everyone at a critical point bit and otherwise not be in it if he even is at all.

Yes. Luke in isolation as a hermit, comes out at the right time to help the new force sensitive. It's almost as if it was the first movie....

I'm deeply afraid of "If you strike me down...." though.
posted by eriko at 6:03 AM on October 20, 2015

Also, Hamill didn't grow the beard for Star Wars. He's clean-shaven in Star Wars.

Of course. The evil bearded Luke Skywalker is in the mirror universe.
posted by eriko at 6:04 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

The recurring mass memory loss between clone wars-rebellion-post rebellion is curious, if consistent. There are clearly no camera phones or Internet in a galaxy far, far away.

During the Second World War there were films, newspaper reports, Pathe news, soldiers coming back with stories plus more films, books, documentary series in the years after... but it wasn't until decades later the full story came out, including one of the key elements that won the war - Bletchley Park.

So yeah I could see people, those in some backwater may be, not knowing the full details of the Rebellion even years later bar some rumours and stories. The Force? It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:10 AM on October 20, 2015

I assume they're still leaving Luke more or less out of the trailers to keep ratcheting up speculation and anticipation. A lot of my unquestioning childhood Star Wars fan devotion was badly blunted by the prequels, but that first shot of Han and Chewbacca in the previous teaser and Han's dialog in this new one? SPACE FEELINGS. The shot of Leia? SPACE FEEEEELINGS. I think Disney's being pretty canny by stretching out the reveal of the characters from the original trilogy, because of course everyone wants to 1) just see Luke and 2) know how he fits into this story.

I can't even entertain the idea of Luke as surprise bad guy. As much as people talk about their childhoods having been ruined by the prequels, I think Luke-turned-to-the-dark-side-after-all would be even less well-received.
posted by usonian at 6:10 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

It just feels like Abrams drawing too much attention to the camerawork, which didn't really happen with the original trilogy.

I'm assuming you're young.

When Star Wars came out in 1977, the camera and edit work was almost unheard of. You simply did not do wipe after wipe, tracking shot after tracking shot, and so forth. The camera in Star Wars was far more dynamic that almost anything that had come before. One of the reasons there are so many wide shots is because the camera is moving so much they can't really do narrow.

Crazy camera work is one of the signatures of Star Wars.
posted by eriko at 6:10 AM on October 20, 2015 [35 favorites]

Oh man, Luke better not be the bad guy.

I thought about that... but it's probably a step too far for Luke to properly turn to the Dark Side, the film makers know the hard core fans would lynch them

I'm kinda thinking of a last minute walk-on... may be even post credit, given his not in the trailer and especially not on the poster
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:12 AM on October 20, 2015

Look y'all, Luke isn't the bad guy here, so just put that fear to rest, ok? The guy in black is not Luke. I don't know what Luke's doing in the movie, but he is categorically not the bad guy.

Now, C3PO? Who knows!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

This is the first Star Wars film with a director who's not Lucas

Nope. The Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and produced by Gary Kurtz.
posted by eriko at 6:15 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

You know who else isn't in the trailer or on the poster? Lando. Lando and Luke both have an L in their name and no other matching characters!

I think we all know what this means!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:18 AM on October 20, 2015

That first voice in the trailer? The kinda high-pitched voice that asks, "Who are you?"

I'm betting that's Luke, and he's batshit crazy. Like, not Joker crazy, but like lives in a remote place (all alone on a swamp planet, maybe?) and spends most of his time inside his own head because he's the last Jedi Master crazy.

I want to hear Yoda's words come out of Luke's mouth so bad.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 6:21 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

Is Star Wars Rebels going to have some soft tie-in to the movie like the Marvel shows will do? Maybe the First Order shows up?
posted by drezdn at 6:24 AM on October 20, 2015

Metal hand from a mysterious shrouded figure on R2D2, and a conspicuous lack of C3P0 and Luke...

They have been merged together into a cyborg!

A whiney, whiney cyborg.
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:26 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

If the toys and calendar are to be believed re: C3P0:

P3C0 naq E2Q2 zrrg hc jvgu OO-8. P3C0 nyfb unf n arj nez.
posted by drezdn at 6:28 AM on October 20, 2015

When Star Wars came out in 1977, the camera and edit work was almost unheard of.

The shots in Star Wars were so insanely complicated for their time that they had to invent a new camera system to shoot them. It was so revolutionary that they won an Oscar for it.
posted by octothorpe at 6:30 AM on October 20, 2015 [22 favorites]

Boyega's reaction to seeing himself in it is pretty great.
posted by sparkletone at 6:31 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

octothorpe: This if the first Star Wars film with a director who's not Lucas

eriko: Nope. The Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and produced by Gary Kurtz.

I think octothorpe's point kind of relied on you not cutting off the rest of this comment. I disagree with his point and think Kershner did bring non-Lucasian things to his direction, but Octothorpe clearly acknowledges the cited director in his next sentence.
posted by biffa at 6:44 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

Is Star Wars Rebels going to have some soft tie-in to the movie like the Marvel shows will do? Maybe the First Order shows up?

Doubtful. Rebels happens more than 30 years in the past. It chronologically takes place before Episode IV.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:44 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

YES octothorpe, I was going to say, do they not realize how many articles have been written about the cameraworks and shots in the original (the first, OMG GIANT SPACESHIP shot being of course the one that most people think of, but there were plenty others).

What the hell is up with that line?

In a Lucas film? It's better to just...not ask.

The reason that my mixed feelings about Disney owning this property are mixed is that I don't think they are going to let Abrams outright crap on the canon they way he did Trek (whether you liked said crapping or not). Way too many dollars at stake. It might suck for other reasons, because Disney movies sometimes do, but I'm pretty sure Abrams was told to treat the Stuff Everyone Loved about the first movies with respect.
posted by emjaybee at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Possible sequel titles:

The Force Hits the Snooze Button

The Force Wishes the Damned Neighbor's Kid Would Shut the Hell Up, It's Too Early For This

The Force Regrets That Double Latte After Dinner Last Night

The Force Is Thinking If the Upstairs Neighbor Is Going To Clomp Around In Military Boots At 7am, It Will Offer To Levitate His Ass Around If What He's Doing Is So Important

This might not be about the Force.
posted by A dead Quaker at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

Doubtful. Rebels happens more than 30 years in the past. It chronologically takes place before Episode IV.

I get that, but I wonder if there will be some reveal that will have a payoff in TFA. It would probably have to be something minor or even a background thing as I'm not sure how many people watching the movie will have seen enough Rebels. (And aside from the fact that Kylo Ren's mom is Sabine Wren)
posted by drezdn at 6:53 AM on October 20, 2015

I'm glad Luke is not in the trailer, especially if he only has a brief part in this movie. People are going to fucking lose their shit in the theater when he appears again.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:54 AM on October 20, 2015

I just hope the film continues the theme of the series, which is "Heroic droids doing everything they can to help ungrateful meatbags, despite the long odds."
posted by drezdn at 6:57 AM on October 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

Lindelof didn't write the thing

Thank the sweet zombie Space Jesus. I was afraid to look.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:03 AM on October 20, 2015

Io9's shot-by-shot breakdown
posted by drezdn at 7:06 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

Rewatching this for the nth time, I think Williams' "The Force Theme" may be the most direct line to my heart I've ever known.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:06 AM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]

eriko: "This is the first Star Wars film with a director who's not Lucas

Nope. The Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and produced by Gary Kurtz."

My comment was "This is the first Star Wars film with a director who's not Lucas and who has a distinctive visual style of his own " Kershner was a hired gun who would should what he was told to shoot. It helps if you read to the end of a sentence before criticizing it.
posted by octothorpe at 7:15 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

If I had to guess something that happens in the movie: Purjonppn qvrf. Gurer ner fubgf va gur genvyre gung vg frrzf yvxr ur fubhyq or va, ohg uvf nofrapr vf abgrjbegul.
posted by drezdn at 7:18 AM on October 20, 2015

Hamil did, indeed, grow his Obi-Wan beard for the film.
I even have a leaked photo of him.
posted by Mezentian at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2015

Isn't that Luke's garaged ship from the first Star Wars, shown in the scene where he's talking with C3P0 about R2's restraining bolt?

Page search for What are you doing hiding there? in this linked page. The site calls it a Skyhopper, but that can't be right.

The garaged vehicle doesn't look like the 0:27 ship to me.

Fanon seems to indicate the garaged vehicle is a V-35 landspeeder.
posted by mwhybark at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2015

And the editing - the editing was a big thing. As a twelve-year old a the time, it was something that marked out Star Wars from all the rest. It looked great, but it moved like a greased cheetah on roller skates.

(I'm a fervent follower of the Marcia Lucas theory of Star Wars, though.)
posted by Grangousier at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2015 [11 favorites]

octothorpe: " This is the first Star Wars film with a director"

Nope. All of the Star Wars films had directors.
posted by Bugbread at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2015 [37 favorites]

octothorpe: " This is the first Star Wars film"

Nope. There have been between 3 and 6 other Star Wars films, depending on who you believe.
posted by Bugbread at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2015 [30 favorites]

octothorpe: " This is the first Star"

Nope. The first star came into existence roughly 13.8 billion years ago.
posted by Bugbread at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2015 [42 favorites]

FWIW, my 9 year old saw the first shot - the person in goggles who is likely Rey - and said "That's Luke!" He's sticking to that prediction.

On a more realistic note, Ford, Hamill, Fisher, and Driver have the top line billing on the poster, with Ridley et al underneath. I know part of that is from the historical weight of their characters, but I think its notable that Driver is top line with them and also notable as the billing for Ford and Hamill are flipped from what it was in the original movies (was Hamill then Ford). All of which to say, I don't think Luke will only have a small role in this film, and I would be surprised if he was the bad guy, although I would not be surprised if he seems to be the bad guy for a time.

Also, for some reason, that leaked photo linked above has always said "force ghost" to me, from the very start. Typically, Jedi in the field don't look quite that pristine, but he looks pristine in that costume.

My prediction is that Luke will die in the first third of the movie, just as Obi-Wan did, but will continue to be a strong presence in the films now and going forward.
posted by anastasiav at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

There have been between 3 and 6 other Star Wars films, depending on who you believe.

One might even take the count as high as NINE, from a certain point of view.
posted by radwolf76 at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2015

Well hell, from that point of view there have been eleven.
posted by thecaddy at 7:44 AM on October 20, 2015

I keep telling myself what I've been saying all along: Always remember: Hype leads to excessive expectations; excessive expectations lead to fan rage; fan rage leads to suffering. It's not working very well for me, especially not with Han ROCKING Leia in that trailer. Baby's first OTP.

And yes we got tickets with the Mondo pint glasses. My husband went out to get them last night because the Drafthouse server fell over. Beats the hours he spent waiting in line for Phantom Menace tickets when it came out.
posted by immlass at 7:48 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

And now having crawled out of bed with four hours of sleep because I was internally so jazzed up on the trailer (playing Star Wars soundtracks to fall asleep to was DEFINITELY a bad idea), I got to say, I loved it and in a different way than I loved the second trailer.

We open up on Jakku, either in in the crashed super star destroyer or regular star destroyer we've seen previously with Rey hunting for salvageable parts. I loved the scene of her walking through the desert with BB-8 rolling along beside. This trailer is very much an introduction to our new heroes, Rey, Finn, Poe and our villain, Kylo.

Rey is our Luke stand in, or in another world, perhaps an Anakin that was never discovered on Tattoine. She's in a backwater, scrounging on the relics of a battle that happened decades ago, and stuck in that small town existence. We have Finn, a guy who is very likely a First Order deserter, and he's telling us, "I have been trained to fight all my life, but I have nothing to fight for." It's a blaring call to arms for him to join the Resistance or serve a more noble cause than the one he had been raised into. Poe, well, we know he gets tortured and is a pilot for the Resistance (if you read Star Wars: Shattered Empire you find out his parents fought for the Rebellion at Endor).

Then we have Kylo Ren. At least appearing to make a vow to the burnt ruined skull-like helmet of Vader to "finish" something, be it the eradication of the Jedi or the establishment of the Empire - but we know the only true "mission" that Vader had was hunting down and killing the Jedi. Everything else was kind of just in support of the Palpatine. He's surrounded by the Knights of Ren, info that was released months ago (or we assume they're the Knights of Ren - who could also be spin offs of some Darth Vader cultists that pop up in an Aftermath interlude hunting for Vader's lightsaber). Also noteworthy, at the end he's apparently unmasked when he's about to fight Finn - that's a departure from a guy who loves Vader.

The voice speaking over the trailer is probably Maz, a space pirate, and Lupita Nyongo's character. I'm willing to bet the place with the colorful banners that Han is leading Rey and Finn into is her place. She's apparently someone in the know.

At some point, a super weapon is fired. We have a picture of it in the poster and I'm guessing the burning forests are the result.

It's an awesome turn to basically have Han, the skeptic play the role of Obi-Wan in telling another generation of the past. He's telling Rey and Finn about the "hokey religion" he witnessed, in the same manner that Obi-Wan told Luke about the Force (minus the training aspect). There's a lot to dissect in the trailer, and since others have really already done that, I won't go into it. I do feel bad for that mouse droid, about to be all blown up. The music continues to tease with the old, but now with what seems to be some of the new.
posted by Atreides at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

My prediction is that Luke will die in the first third of the movie, just as Obi-Wan did ...

If Luke dies, who gets to yell "Nooooooooooooooooooo!"?
posted by octothorpe at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

And the editing - the editing was a big thing.

They won a bunch of awards for that, including an Oscar. And while double-checking that, I just learned that the WGA nominated Star Wars for Best Comedy Written Directly for the Screen in 1978.
posted by effbot at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

My feelings are at war within me. I am excited for the continuation of the saga that enthralled me in my youth. I am pleased to see the return of some of the characters I followed back then, with whose action figures I played out my own stories. I am cautiously hopeful that this film will make a good story rather than just be cinematic spectacle.

But I also remember a springtime in 1999: pre-YouTube, I devoted an overnight to downloading the high-quality version of the first trailer for an upcoming movie. I watched that trailer over, and over, and over again, pausing it in the old QuickTime Player to analyze shots. "You speak of the prophecy..." "What does your heart tell you?" "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?" Oh, the bitter disappointment – even anger! – that followed upon the film's release; that was definitely a milestone on my journey to become the jaded and cynical old nerd I am.

So armored by experience, I'll go see this. I want to enjoy the story. But I'm leery of and vaccinated against the hype.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 8:06 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

My little brother is highly disappointed in me. "Of course that's not the same tractor beam. That blew up with the Death Star. How could you forget?"
posted by ChuraChura at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

I recorded the trailer to Episode I off of the exclusive showing on Entertainment Tonight on VHS and then later that week we had a little viewing party where we watched it over and over. We thought it looked awesome and were so excited for what was going to be an amazing movie ...
posted by octothorpe at 8:14 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

The first trailer was better at bringing out the feels of my younger self. This second trailer still had me excited and on the edge of my seat. I've probably watched it about 40 times since.
posted by Fizz at 8:16 AM on October 20, 2015

anastasiav: "I would be surprised if he was the bad guy, although I would not be surprised if he seems to be the bad guy for a time."

I think this is right. I think these new movies will play with the concept of Light and Dark, and their boundaries and meanings in interesting ways. Luke may be on the Dark side, but convinced he is doing the work of the Light. Perhaps he feels that extinguishing the Jedi and the Sith alike is the only remaining way to bring balance to the Force.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:16 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

The camera in Star Wars was far more dynamic that almost anything that had come before.

Well, apparently Steven Spielberg disagrees:

[Spielberg] also teased Lucas about his technique—Lucas' static camera positions, in particular, used to amuse Spielberg, whose sinuously gliding camerawork was fast becoming legendary. "George makes his visuals come to life through montage," he said. "That makes him unique in our generation, since most of us do it instead with composition and camera placement."

posted by Atom Eyes at 8:55 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm betting that's Luke, and he's batshit crazy. Like, not Joker crazy

I bet that's something he could pull off.
posted by phearlez at 9:01 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

It bothers me that they set "THIS CHRISTMAS" in the Halloween font.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2015

As a fan of the first three movies, I can't understand anyone having rage about the idea of Luke being a villain in this one. Leia or Han? That would be terrible, but what has Luke ever done to make you think he could never turn evil? As far as I can tell, his primary motivations in the second two movies are fear for his friends' safety and fear of becoming like his father, both of which seem ripe for leading him to the Dark Side.
posted by straight at 9:11 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Good in a 2 minute trailer is one thing. Good for 120 minutes? That's something else.
posted by George Lucas at 9:38 AM on October 20, 2015 [26 favorites]

At least appearing to make a vow to the burnt ruined skull-like helmet of Vader to "finish" something, be it the eradication of the Jedi or the establishment of the Empire - but we know the only true "mission" that Vader had was hunting down and killing the Jedi.

Vader's mission was to bring balance to the Force. If Luke became a hermit after helping to destroy two Death Stars worth of people just doing their jobs, then no more balancing was going on. Rylo Ken may want the same. Perhaps he tried to learn from Luke and was turned away so is now like "guess you need bad guys for balance" and in order to balance the Force, and thus bring stability back to a fractured galaxy, he's cast himself in the role of Team Badass.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:41 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

destroy two Death Stars worth of people just doing their jobs

As a space platform contractor I can tell you that personal politics comes into play heavily when choosing jobs.
posted by phearlez at 9:52 AM on October 20, 2015 [20 favorites]

robocop is bleeding: "Rylo Ken"

You mean Kylo Ren. Rylo Ken is the name of my Rilo Kiley/Adam-Driver-in-Inside-Llewyn-Davis mashup band.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:55 AM on October 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

Good for 120 minutes? That's something else. Is Matt Pinfield in the movie?!?
posted by cottoncandybeard at 9:56 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can't understand anyone having rage about the idea of Luke being a villain in this one.

It's not so much "rage" for me as, "I know we live in the golden age of serial dramas featuring complex characters, antiheroes and moral ambiguity but could we maybe just leave our fictional childhood heroes alone?"
posted by usonian at 9:57 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

phearlez, that's exactly why I mentioned him.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:08 AM on October 20, 2015

I live to over-explain references.
posted by phearlez at 10:14 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Good in a 2 minute trailer is one thing. Good for 120 minutes? That's something else.
posted by George Lucas at 12:38 PM on October 20 [3 favorites +] [!]

Eponyisterical!!!
posted by Fizz at 10:15 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Vader's mission was to bring balance to the Force.

Was that his mission or just his prophetic role in existing? A difference, there is!
posted by Atreides at 10:16 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is Matt Pinfield in the movie?!?

He plays a Sith Lord whose labored breathing is 100% caused by sleep apnea.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:17 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Kylo Ren & Stimpy.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:18 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Pinfield, Kennedy, and Randee of the Redwoods are the crew of a spice freighter.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:20 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Was that his mission or just his prophetic role in existing? A difference, there is!

Not so much difference when the origins have been lost to legend. "There was a dude who was supposed to bring balance to the Force. Clearly, he did not." "Then I will complete his mission!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:26 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, and the main behind the scenes bad guy is Downtown Julie Brown.

"WUBBA WUBBA WUBBA, young Jedi."
posted by Chrysostom at 10:36 AM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Based on absolutely nothing other than having watched the trailers, here's what I'm thinking in terms of Luke's role (because I like parallels and i think the Star Wars movies also like them):

-Kylo Ren will be revealed to have been a student (maybe even the son) of Luke's, who turned to the Dark Side after hearing about Vader and the Empire, along with whatever personal baggage he carries.
-Luke will have withdrawn into a hermit like existence as a result; like Obi-Wan he will doubt his abilities after losing a pupil to the Dark Side. The Force is a quiet presence in the galaxy as a result; there are no Jedi, and perhaps only one Sith.
-Finn and Rey find a lightsaber; it stirs up curiosity about those stories they heard as kids about the Jedi. Remember, we'd be at least two generations out from the last of the Jedi Order, and in a big galaxy, they may well be reduced to myth especially on some of the outer worlds, where Jedi might not have been seen.
-This starts Finn on a quest to find Luke, return the lightsaber, because he's seeking a purpose and is Force sensitive. He is rejecting the First Order and seeking out one of the heroes of the Rebellion; this saga will involve the Hero's Journey again.
-Finn finds Luke - possibly drawing Kylo Ren as well; I'm intrigued by the shots of Finn igniting the lightsaber as Kylo advances; I can see a fight sequence that is going poorly until Luke steps in, driving Ren away. Or Luke is reluctant to engage; he needs to be drawn out. In any event, Luke is reminded of who he is and that the Force is part of his destiny, and comes out of hiding like Obi-Wan did, to train a new Jedi. To reawaken the Force in himself and Finn.
-I'm hoping they don't kill Luke; that Luke remains as a mentor at least until the second film. I can see the climax of the film resolving around Luke and Finn dealing with Ren and coming to understand each other, while the First Order advances on a Resistance base, giving us at least two action sequences to cut between and some potential nice parallels with ANH, in terms of the forces of good fighting a battle against an approaching overwhelming force (and note the big fucking trench in that snow planet).
-In the next film, you have Luke training Finn, much like Yoda and Luke. A style of training missing from the prequels; a quiet focus on control, mastery, understanding, and overcoming doubt.

I would really like it, though, if the new heroes - Finn and Rey and Poe - aren't related to Luke, Leia and Han. That they are new people, ready to take up the gauntlet and carry on the fight, and perhaps fix whatever went wrong and lead to the Jedi and the Republic not being able to consolidate their victory after RotJ.
posted by nubs at 10:38 AM on October 20, 2015 [15 favorites]

Kylo Ren says "I will finish what you started" to Luke and to the memory of Vader, who died while he was starting his final life's mission: To bring down the Empire. Luke and Anakin started to bring down the empire when they defeated and killed the Emperor.

I like this quite a bit. I don't think its right, but I like it.
posted by anastasiav at 10:43 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I sort of consider the conceit of sound in space as a computer visualization thing. Kind of like how pretty pictures from telescopes and robotic exploration are almost always false-color composites, often wavelengths not visible to the naked eye.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:44 AM on October 20, 2015

I hate how many scenes fade in/out from black because then there are like 2 dozen brief moments where I am confronted with the reflection of my own gormless face on the screen. No one should ever have to know what their movie enjoying face looks like.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2015 [20 favorites]

The monster at the end of the trailer is... you!
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:49 AM on October 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

I'm pitching a company that will provide you with this very experience. Future films will provide green-screen space over the primary Mary-Sue/wish-fulfillment character wherein YOUR VERY OWN hideous visage will be projected, slackjawed with wonder and cramming popcorn into your facehole. For our premium subscribers, entire movie-going audiences will have their experience ruined by your unshaven, tired and sallow face in place of $MOVIESTAR_DU_JOUR.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just need some hardware to pin an array of cameras to your head.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2015

the burnt ruined skull-like helmet of Vader

Wouldn't the whole thing have burned up in the funeral pyre at the end of Return of the Jedi?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:57 AM on October 20, 2015

The helmet was dug out of the fire by the ewoks, who worshipped it as a relic of their great moon god, Looocasa.
posted by drezdn at 11:03 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

#BoycottStarWarsVII: People Boycott The Force Awakens Because It Promotes “White Genocide”
posted by homunculus at 11:05 AM on October 20, 2015

Yes yes, let's not give those trolls any airtime here.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:13 AM on October 20, 2015 [14 favorites]

It's made of some kind of long-time-ago material that melts when burned, but doesn't totally melt away to nothing.

I believe the canonical, in-universe name for this substance is "metal".
posted by The Tensor at 11:19 AM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

Just need some hardware to pin an array of cameras to your head.

Not a problem. Hold still.
posted by phearlez at 11:20 AM on October 20, 2015

"Meesa come rescue yousa!"

Jar-Jar Abrams
posted by univac at 11:23 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can easily see a cult of Sith worshipers/wannabes/whatever making Darth Vader the center of their cult rather than Darth Sidious. To people not either in the audience of the movie or in the inner-inner-inner circle of Palpitine/Sidious, Darth Vader was the vital frightening face of the Sith. Darth Sidious was much more inclined to behind the scenes manipulations and subtlty, which don't really leave a lot for a cult to center around.

IIRC even after he revealed himself to the Jedi, Darth Sidious ran the Empire as "Emperor Palpitine" not "Sith Lord Darth Sidious", leaving Darth Vader as not merely the public face of the Sith, but to people who weren't privy to the details the **ONLY** Sith.

And even at the upper echelons of the Empire there was a confusion of all Force users as "Jedi", with Sith being largely unknown. Note the Imperial Officer Vader force choked in New Hope referred to VADER as a Jedi, as did Grand Moff Tarkin. And sure, you can say that was just becuse Lucas hadn't even invented the word Sith yet, but it's part of the movie regardless.

So given that near total ignorance of the existence of the Sith, and Palpitine's preference for working from the shadows, the fact that Kylo Ren and his fellows latched onto Vader as their icon isn't really surprising.
posted by sotonohito at 11:24 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Boycotts by racist dipsticks? More tickets for the rest of us, then.
posted by emjaybee at 11:27 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

What did the general public know about Darth Vader?

From 2012
posted by anastasiav at 11:29 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

That's how it got all melty.

Wait, how'd it get burned? How'd it get burned how'd it get burned? HOW'D IT GET BURRRNNNNEDDDDDD
posted by shakespeherian at 11:43 AM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Still holding out for Guy Maddin's The Saddest Star Wars In the World.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:51 AM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

that's how it got all melty.

Wait, how'd it get burned? How'd it get burned how'd it get burned? HOW'D IT GET BURRRNNNNEDDDDDD

WOOD LOGS CAN'T MELT SITH DREAMS
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:51 AM on October 20, 2015 [17 favorites]

HOW'D IT GET BURRRNNNNEDDDDDD

Chemical and nuclear waste from the Post-RotJ Endor Moon Holocaust?
posted by nubs at 12:26 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I can easily see a cult of Sith worshipers/wannabes/whatever

Previously.
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

C-3PO is Ultron. Discuss.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:35 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

C-3PO is Ultron. Discuss.

Hmm. C-3P0 as the secret mastermind behind it all - the fall of the Old Republic, the rise of the Empire, and now the struggle between the Resistance and the First Order? Pulling the strings on Sith and Jedi alike, ensuring the galaxy is locked in an eternal conflict, while he prepares for his ultimate goal: the safest galaxy, populated only by protocol droids?
posted by nubs at 12:41 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

What were the final words of the trailer? Sounded like Princess Leia/Carrie Fisher saying a name (guessing: of her (grand)daughter)?

"Let it go." After which, she breaks into a song and dance number...
posted by happyroach at 12:46 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Give any thread long enough, and the Darth Vader truthers eventually show up....
posted by schmod at 1:10 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

"Let it go." After which, she breaks into a song and dance number...

The natural success of Lucas' special edition changes to RTOJ and the cross-pollination of Disney's ownership of Lucasfilm.

Regarding Vader's helmet, and technically, I suppose, it's his helmet and face mask, it's not inconceivable that the funeral pyre failed to sustain a hot enough temperature to completely destroy either. Luke starts the fire on his own but not long after, runs off to join the party in the Ewok village. Who knows if the burning wood was stoked enough before he left to sustain a hot enough temperature? So it's not surprising that it survived, albeit warped and melty.

In the recent new productions of the Expanded Universe, it's revealed that at least some of the very upper circles knew Palpatine was a Sith. In Aftermath, you have a close aid of Palpatine who, while not a Force user, was something of a culturally practicing Sith. He and others preserved Sith teachings and what not and were essentially planning to go run off and hide in the far reaches of the galaxy.

What we know about Luke from the trailers is almost zilch. What we know from reports from the field is that scenes were filmed in the ruins of old Christian monastic stone cells on an Irish island. This lends credence to the idea that Luke has gone into hiding or isolation. Rey and Finn's surprise about the "truth" of the Jedi, the Dark Side, etc, is really fascinating because it flies in full contrast to the old Expanded Universe - where for the most part, Luke was busy finding all the Force sensitives he could and rebuilding the Jedi Order. Ironically, instead of a time traveling Romulan mining vessel in another Abram's timeline, we have a darker timeline because of a corporate purchase.
posted by Atreides at 1:10 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm very excited about this movie, please don't have fucked it up JJ Abrams, please. I'm not a hard sell, I even enjoyed the prequels, so please don't have fucked this up

I swear to god if there's time travel in it not even a thousand Death Stars will be able to match the destructive force of my nerd rage
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:11 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

nubs: "Hmm. C-3P0 as the secret mastermind behind it all"

It goes a step further. Who was there before 3P0? That's right, R2. There is not a single character in the films whose actions are not subtly influenced by R2 at one point or the other, and yet her actions are never questioned.

The more I think about this, the more inescapable the conclusion is: R2D2 is a Sith Dalek.
posted by schmod at 1:13 PM on October 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

nubs: "Hmm. C-3P0 as the secret mastermind behind it all - the fall of the Old Republic, the rise of the Empire, and now the struggle between the Resistance and the First Order? Pulling the strings on Sith and Jedi alike, ensuring the galaxy is locked in an eternal conflict, while he prepares for his ultimate goal: the safest galaxy, populated only by protocol droids?"

There is an amusing fan theory that R2-D2 and Chewie are the real heroes of the movies.
posted by Rock Steady at 1:14 PM on October 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

I thought Captain Phasma was just Sith Rippio's drag persona.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:40 PM on October 20, 2015

I went to go see Star Wars (IV) at the Seekonk Showcase Cinema in May 1977 with my Dad and Sister. When the movie was over, we walked outside and my Dad stopped and said, "We are going to go see that again tomorrow night!"

And we did. We ended up seeing it over and over again that summer. I don't remember my Dad ever spending that much money on a movie.

That October, he made us homemade R2D2 and C3PO outfits out of corrugated cardboard and bicycle reflectors for Halloween. We won our school's Halloween Costume Contest.

I'm excited for this new movie and have my fingers crossed. I feel like it is woven into the fabric of my family and I so want it to be good after all the disappointments with I-III.

LucasFilms & Abrams: Do not disappoint us.
posted by jammy at 1:41 PM on October 20, 2015 [11 favorites]

Oh man, I love Star Wars! I hope in this one Luke Starlord finally manages to kill off all the xenomorphs on the Starcraft Enterprise.
posted by dephlogisticated at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]

I swear to god if there's time travel in it not even a thousand Death Stars will be able to match the destructive force of my nerd rage

Leaked plot summary for Star Wars VII: Han and Chewie use the Millenium Falcon to go back in time with Ren and Finn, to show them that the stories were all true. In the process, they create an alternate timeline in which Darth Vader was killed in an industrial accident during the construction of the second Death Star, leaving only his twisted, melted mask behind. Luke, haunted by the knowledge that Vader was his father but without closure, has retreated to a monastery where he has taken a vow of Force abstinence. The First Order has dedicated their existence to restoring the Empire, but one with strong work safety guidelines and protections to ensure that the accident that claimed Vader will never happen again. The Resistance opposes all such regulations, fearing they would cost jobs.
posted by nubs at 1:57 PM on October 20, 2015 [14 favorites]

This could be the best movie of all time....but I'm 42 now instead of 9, so there's just no chance that I'm going to love it (or any other film) as much as I loved Empire...especially this scene. Damn, Vader was cool before they ruined him in RotJ.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:33 PM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Leaked plot summary for Star Wars VII: Han and Chewie use the Millenium Falcon to go back in time with Ren and Finn,

It's JEDI TIME,
c'mon and grab your friends
we'll go to very distant stars.
With REN THE SITH
and FINN THE SOLDIER
the fun will never end....
posted by JHarris at 2:47 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

I thought the ship in Luke's garage was his T-16


It's what he used to bulls-eye womp-rats with in beggar's canyon
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:56 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

The Phantom Menace killed my love of going to the movies. Maybe this movie can revive that love.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 5:07 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I finally watched the trailer and I am very upset now: I only see at most one movie a year, maybe one every two years, and I haven't seen "The Martian" yet. So….. *wibble*
posted by wenestvedt at 6:56 PM on October 20, 2015

Is there anything worse than nostalgic scifi? It makes me sad to think of all the money being spent on this stuff which could have gone into adaptations of Ancillary Justice or KSR's 2312 or something else entirely new. At least there is still good old television. You'll never let me down!
posted by Poldo at 7:05 PM on October 20, 2015

For those of you who are worried there won't be enough Jar Jar Binks in this movie, someone apparently took a lot of time to make this trailer just for you: The Binks Awakens
posted by teponaztli at 7:11 PM on October 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Also, please stop calling that character Ren unless you want me to think of Stimpy every time.

"Steempy, you eeedeeeot!"
posted by wenestvedt at 7:32 PM on October 20, 2015

Crazy camera work is one of the signatures of Star Wars.

Here's a part of a documentary showing how the special effects cameras worked in the making of Star Wars. Before the computer controlled cameras that Dykstra and company developed, process shots had to be done with a static camera because you couldn't duplicate the same movements when you were doing the next shot that was to be combined with the first one.
posted by octothorpe at 7:41 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Wouldn't the whole thing have burned up in the funeral pyre at the end of Return of the Jedi?

The widely distributed 'funeral pyre' footage was faked on a Hollywood sound stage. Wake up sheeple!
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:03 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Your favorite band sucks!" comments?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:59 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Maybe it's actually Kyle O'Ren.

Kyle Katarn.
posted by teponaztli at 9:03 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

The shimmying down the rope into the big cavern in the desert reminds me of the Staff of Ra bit in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:07 PM on October 20, 2015

After an hour and a half of falling servers grief last night, I FINALLY got decent seats for a 3D 9:30am show on Saturday and, after all that, all my oldest son could say was: "cool". My youngest son told me he wouldn't go see it because "it seems too scary".

I was born in 1976. I AM the Star Wars generation. And my kids just don't even know. I need more friends.

Anybody in El Paso want to go see this with me?
posted by blessedlyndie at 9:12 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

“What If The New Star Wars Sucks, Too?” [Caution: Coarse Language], Albert Burneko, Deadspin, 20 October 2015

Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it. And the ways Return of the Jedi sucks are the ways the prequels suck: The prequels are not a betrayal, but a coherent expression of where the original trilogy was headed in 1983. It was already sprouting cutesy sidekicks and miserable plotting; the Jedi were already shifting from wise warrior monks to bland New-Age self-help gurus; it had already ruined Darth Vader.

Once you acknowledge these undeniable truths—you can do it!—the next step is recognizing that mostly, the Star Wars universe has given us movies that are bad. The prequels are not the aberrations. Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are.

posted by ob1quixote at 9:15 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I was born in 1976. I AM the Star Wars generation.

Oh, so you're the one that wouldn't stop crying.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:16 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

I was born in 1976. I AM the Star Wars generation.

Oh, so you're the one that wouldn't stop crying.

I'm not crying. YOU'RE CRYING!
posted by blessedlyndie at 9:21 PM on October 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

The shimmying down the rope into the big cavern

That's no moon cavern, that's a space station downed Star Destroyer.
posted by crossoverman at 9:37 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Maybe it's actually Kyle O'Ren.

Kai Lauren
posted by The Tensor at 10:41 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Kylo Berenstein
posted by frecklefaerie at 11:32 PM on October 20, 2015

Rilo Kiley
posted by teponaztli at 12:33 AM on October 21, 2015

Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it.

Nope. I get that you don't like Ewoks. But nope.
posted by flaterik at 1:08 AM on October 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

Saying the quality of JEDI is similar to the quality of the prequels is ludicrous. Even if we consider the Ewoks the weak link of that film, you've still got all the stuff on Tatooine at the start - which is great - and the revelation about Leia and getting to Endor in the Imperial Shuttle and Luke facing down Vader and Palpatine and the speeder bike chase on Endor. That's most of the film. There's not that much great in any of the prequels, maybe not even combined.

Jedi might be a step down from the first two films, but it's not the precipitous drop of the prequels which have no life to them at all.
posted by crossoverman at 1:55 AM on October 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

The most amazing part of the new movie, to me, is that one of the heroes is a stormtrooper. One member of that faceless army who we're not supposed to care about from the original trilogy, but just feel triumphant as the heroes slaughter them by the dozens. One of them takes off his helmet, picks up Luke's lightsaber, and becomes the goddamn hero of the movie.

I was raised to do one thing.

Man I hope this doesn't suck.
posted by heathkit at 2:16 AM on October 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm with crossoverman: Saying Jedi sucks because of the Ewoks is some early teenage I'm-too-cool-for-this-it's-for-little-kids bullshit.
It's got Luke showing off his mad Jedi skillz, and then still not feeling like he's really worthy of the title (even after Yoda tells him he's the real deal, he's got that yummy cookie butter core of self-doubt to overcome once he's up against it), it's got super-busy space battles intercut with madcap jungle warfare (including Ewok home-planet advantage, tyvm), and while the "Leia is my sister" thing feels a little bit small-universe for me, I've learned to live with it.
It's not the taut, refined dark gem of see-how-the-heroes-fail candy that is Empire, but it's a damn fine third act, and arguably a better third act than Dark Knight Rises or At World's End (not to be confused with The World's End).
It's also got Han Solo, Thawed-Out Badass, Reluctant General, and Unstoppable Scoundrel ("I've got an idea" still kills me every time), Lando's old-pal redemption, Alec Guinness making a hefty exposition-dump seem totally effortless, and that swordfight in the Emperor's throne room gives me chills.
It made me cry over the death of a wobbly-eared rubber puppet, dammit. It's not Touch of Evil or anything, but Return of the Jedi is not a bad piece of filmmaking.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 2:41 AM on October 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

The ROTJ space battle is probably my favourite space battle from the entire series.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:06 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's pretty rad, yeah.
"All craft, pull up!"
Shudder.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:47 AM on October 21, 2015

While it's been memed to hell and back, in context, the dawning horror of the Rebel's culminating in, "IT'S A TRAP!" still gets to me. Practically every climactic space battle I ever play-fought as a kid had some amateur variation on that perfect, "Oops, you're fucked," moment and I can't have been the only one.
posted by sparkletone at 4:03 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I've been lost in the various spoiler sites for over a year now, particularly makingstarwars.net which has been pretty consistently on the money with leaked images, plot details, characters and release dates. There's a full synopsis of the movie on there which has been pretty much vindicated by each new trailer release. If you want to know Luke's role, what happens to Han, who Rey really is, why Kylo Ren is holding Vader's mask...that's your best spoilerific spaceport of call.
posted by Caskeum at 4:34 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

RotJ has some flaws but I like it just fine. Yeah, the Ewoks are a little annoying but think of that part as Lucas finally making a version of Apocalypse Now which he had given to Coppola a decade earlier when he couldn't get it produced himself.
posted by octothorpe at 4:40 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

The most amazing part of the new movie, to me, is that one of the heroes is a stormtrooper.

After the total and amazing portrayal of the stormtroopers Clone Troopers in the (really, really, REALLY good) Clone Wars animation, I am unsurprised by this. In a lot of ways, Captain Rex is the most compelling character the series has ever produced.
posted by anastasiav at 5:13 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it.

It's not bad, especially in light of the prequels. But it's the weakest one of the original 3 and is pretty much a by the numbers plot of redemption, which makes it boring.

Thematically, the Ewoks work: simple creatures with heart, living in a lush forest defeat the cold black and white Empire. But it doesn't soar, you know? Especially after the adult tonal shift in Empire Strikes Back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 AM on October 21, 2015

"The Endor scenes of ROTJ are like the first hill on a kiddie roller coaster. You know it's going downhill from here, but not in an interesting or fun way."

-I don't remember who
posted by Hatashran at 5:48 AM on October 21, 2015

Yeah, ROTJ isn't *terrible* by any means. But it's not that great. There's too much repetition of earlier themes, the Leia/sister thing is a serious misstep, it's generally flabby. It's the only one of the three that, when I watch with my kids, I get bored with.

Also, pace Mister Moofoo above, Han feels totally defanged here.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:12 AM on October 21, 2015

Has anyone done a survey/study of peoples' opinion of RoTJ cross-referenced with how old they were when they first saw it? I still think of Return of the Jedi as "my" Star Wars movie; I'd seen the first one on VHS by that point, and I'd seen The Empire Strikes Back in the theater, but I was 9-10 the year Return of the Jedi came out, pretty much the prime demographic as far as all of the peripheral marketing was concerned. Toys, dixie cups, fast food tie-ins etc... I saw it 3 times in the theater, which was unheard of in my family. I knew the names of all the obscure background characters (thanks to having most of not all of the trading cards,) and so on. I had no beef with Ewoks at the time, and have never been able to muster much adult indignation over them either. But if I had been 9 when Star Wars came out and 15 when RoTJ came out, I guess I could imagine being upset about Ewoks.
posted by usonian at 6:13 AM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

I was 10 when Jedi came out, fwiw.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:22 AM on October 21, 2015

RothJ has a least three action scenes that are among my favorites of any Star Wars film: The hover yacht/Sarlacc fight, the space battle around the new death star and Luke vs. Vader in the emperor's chambers. I used to love the Jabba's Palace scene but Lucas screwed that up too much in the "special" edition.

Oh and I was 19 and annoyingly jaded in 1993 but I still like Jedi.
posted by octothorpe at 6:25 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I was 12. Even at that age, I knew it for the sad, kiddified and whimpering finale that it was.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on October 21, 2015

Mister Moofoo: I'm with crossoverman: Saying Jedi sucks because of the Ewoks is some early teenage I'm-too-cool-for-this-it's-for-little-kids bullshit.

I posted the link because it makes an amusing argument that two-thirds of the movies have not been good, so buying advanced tickets for The Force Awakens is a gamble. Burneko's main thrust is less about Ewoks and more that Vader in ROTJ is, "the angsty, vapid, self-pitying emo shit-for-brains we’d later come to know in the prequels—the pathetic, un-frightening goomba henchman who for all intents and purposes gets pranked into becoming a villain in the first place."

I'm on record as being a True Believer™ who even loves Jar-Jar, but I still giggled at the article. Especially the description of the duel between Luke and Vader in Cloud City.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:46 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Has anyone done a survey/study of peoples' opinion of RoTJ cross-referenced with how old they were when they first saw it?

I have no doubt.
But, eh, I still occasionally love the Ewok movies.
posted by Mezentian at 6:54 AM on October 21, 2015

The fact that there ever were Ewok movies was either erased from my memory or never made it in there in the first place
I did spend the '80s and '90s living in a metaphorical cave, culturally, so that might be why.
I always like Jedi. It wasn't my favorite, but I was at the right age to enjoy it as the lighthearted resolution to Empire's darkness. As I got older, the Ewoks became tiresome, but not so much so that I wouldn't have paid to see the Ewok movies. Hell, I saw all of the prequels in the theater even though I knew they were going to suck.
I may have to track them down for my eight-year-old and make him watch them just to Awakens seems even more spectacular in comparison. But one year, he and I sat down to watch the Holiday Special and he liked it. My son may not have any discernment when it comes to SW. (I, on the other hand had a revelation. The Holiday Special contained images that had been seared into my brain; the torn bantha doll, Harvey Korman pouring a drink into his head, plastic Luke face, etc. I had seen this before! Maybe that's what will happen with the Ewok movies, surprising and disturbing revelations. Maybe I shouldn't track them down. Maybe I should just go to the theater to watch this with the kid, enjoy his reaction, and let all that additional SW crap slide into the hazy depths of my brain.)
posted by Seamus at 7:06 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Has anyone done a survey/study of peoples' opinion of RoTJ cross-referenced with how old they were when they first saw it?

I was nine when the original film came out, and fifteen and a junior in high school when RoTJ came out. I named the dog Wicket.

My kid is now nine, and to him there is no "original" movie, they have all always just existed, just like Robin Hood and the Cat in the Hat. Sometimes new stories come out, but to him they're all just a part of the world he lives in, and all good and bad in equal measure. He loves that Luke saves his father from evil, loves that Anakin shows compassion to his son. Loves the Ewoks, thinks they're silly and that they show that "little people can save the world, too."

So, whatever your hate on Ewoks, I think Lucas pretty much knew what he was doing - he was putting in a group of characters who were relateable to nine year olds and cute and cuddly for sixteen year old girls.
posted by anastasiav at 7:15 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Luke isn't in the new trailer because, while the events of Force Awakens happens, he's on his way to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters.
posted by drezdn at 7:19 AM on October 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm on record as being a True Believer™ who even loves Jar-Jar, but I still giggled at the article. Especially the description of the duel between Luke and Vader in Cloud City.

Yeah, he's not wrong about what made ESB so awesomely menacing.

I do think he's a bit hard on the characterization of Vader in ROTJ. Yes, he was defanged, and yes, you could interpret it as the start of the Whiny Padawan trajectory... but it's not as though indications of his underlying motivations weren't present even in the early parts of ESB. It's not as though it's a total 180 for the character, in other words.

But...ROTJ could have been much better if it'd spent more time on Vader being ruthless and less time on Jabba's cavalcade of muppets.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 7:19 AM on October 21, 2015

Luke isn't in the new trailer because...

Luke's in the new trailer. Unless you know of someone else with a robotic hand who be would be lovingly caressing R2.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:22 AM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Unless you know of someone else with a robotic hand who be would be lovingly caressing R2.

C3P0?
posted by drezdn at 7:30 AM on October 21, 2015 [9 favorites]

Has anyone done a survey/study of peoples' opinion of RoTJ cross-referenced with how old they were when they first saw it?

Oh, well, if we're taking a survey, I saw 'em all in the theater, would've been 14 for ROTJ, and while there wasn't any black rage or anything, my 14-year-old self was definitely pretty grumbly about the Ewoks. Clearly added as a ploy to sell toys to kids who might not have even been able to see ROTJ at all - it was rated PG, and while I don't think I was naive enough to think that meant no 6-year-olds would see it, there were plenty of younger brothers & sisters in my friend group whose parents were not gonna let 'em see ROTJ.

So the Ewoks seemed like a totally blatant and cynical attempt to get young kids to pester their parents for HappyMeals even though they would only know about Ewoks from TV trailers and . . . . . . HappyMeal advertisements.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 AM on October 21, 2015

Luke's in the new trailer. Unless you know of someone else with a robotic hand who be would be lovingly caressing R2.

Yeah, everyone seems to have erased the second teaser from their minds. The one where Luke as narrator says "I have it [the power to use the Force]" over that very shot.
posted by rory at 8:10 AM on October 21, 2015

My parents got me started on Star Wars when I was seven. I ran through three copies of the original trilogy on VHS. I still love RoTJ and I've never minded the Ewoks.
posted by protocoach at 8:13 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think the original plan of having it be Wookiees instead of Ewoks would have been a significant improvement.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:21 AM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

That much fur would have totally blow the wardrobe budget.
posted by radwolf76 at 8:29 AM on October 21, 2015

The one and only thing I never liked about ROTJ was that awful "Yub Nub" song at the end. Say what you will about the tinkering Lucas did with the "special editions" back in the 90s, but replacing that song was worth it.

(Although unfortunately in the new-new version it also comes at the cost of having Hayden f-ing Christensen show up as Vader.)
posted by dnash at 8:45 AM on October 21, 2015

I was nine when ROTJ came out. I loved that movie so goddamn much.

Before we had a VCR, I used to listen to those soundtrack albums over and over. Once we had a VCR, I taped Empire and Jedi off The Movie Channel and watched them whenever I could sneak one in. I was almost in high school, I think, when they finally showed Star Wars on tv again. I'm pretty sure that Jedi is the one I've seen the most times, but it probably only beats Empire by one or two or five.

I have to confess, I didn't totally hate the prequels. Phantom Premise is mediocre, and Revenge of the Sith is mostly excrement, but I liked Attack of the Clones. Although it says something about your prequel trilogy when scenes of Obi-Wan going to the library make the movie more exciting.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:53 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Goddamn Disney, making me hopeful about Star Wars again after I thought I had largely put it behind me.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2015

Burneko's main thrust is less about Ewoks and more that Vader in ROTJ is, "the angsty, vapid, self-pitying emo shit-for-brains we’d later come to know in the prequels—the pathetic, un-frightening goomba henchman who for all intents and purposes gets pranked into becoming a villain in the first place."

Yeah, I get what he's saying, but I disagree with him. Vader, for all his badassness in Empire, is already showing some signs of remembering who he is. And in RotJ he's under strict orders from the Emperor to wait for Luke to arrive and bring him. So Vader isn't an active force in the movie; he's put in a passive place. It would have been potentially interesting if Vader had continued to seek out Luke with the idea of "overthrowing the Emperor and ruling the galaxy together" on his mind; that's a pretty traditional Sith thing, and it might have created some fascinating moments, but I think they might have undermined more important elements.

The original trilogy is about Luke and Luke's journey (the Hero's journey). He comes back from his Ordeal (Empire) with the key to solving everything - knowing who his father is. He gambles everything on that knowledge and belief that he can reach his father. As much as the prequels have overlayed the notion of Anakin's redemption over everything, in the context of the original trilogy as it existed when RotJ came out, the choice to move Vader to a more passive role, pawn of the Emperor, makes sense. That way his final choice - to save Luke at the final moment - has the most dramatic impact. Otherwise, the story tips its hand that Luke has reconnected with his father too early and the story loses steam. And I disagree with the article's "unnecessary scene" of RotJ, where Luke has surrendered and is brought before Vader before going up to the Death Star. Luke plays calm and confident, but there's a moment where he has turned his back and Vader ignites Luke's lightsaber. I don't know if it was Hamill's decision, or the director, but Luke's poker face cracks and you can see his apprehension - that Vader can strike him down and he is defenseless; he's gambled everything on placing himself at his father's mercy and he might have been wrong. It's a great little "oh shit" moment that I appreciate, because it shows that Luke might be wrong - his father might not be turned, he might truly be lost to Luke.

The final Act of RotJ balances between three things - the fight on Endor; the space battle; and the fight in the throne room. When my kids were rewatching it recently, I sat down to enjoy that Act again, because in spite of the Ewoks, it is pretty decent. I was watching to see when the tide turns, because all three descend before building back up to the triumphant moment: the strike team is captured and while the Ewok ambush creates a massive distraction, they still need to break into the bunker; the shield is still up forcing the fleet into a crazy high risk battle that they can't win; and Luke succumbs to his fear and anger and strikes out at the Emperor. Interestingly, to me, it is the battle on Endor that turns first, with the good guys gaining the upper hand and the AT-AT; then the space battle turns; and it is Luke's story that turns last. Structurally, I can see why - it makes sense to leave that one as the climactic turn of the tide; but I could also see going the other way because it is that confrontation in the throne room that is at the thematic heart of the original trilogy and Luke's story. The victory there could be seen to drive the victories elsewhere. But it works.

Anyways, I'm not trying to say that Vader's characterization in RotJ is without problems, and even as a kid I was troubled by the notion that one decision could somehow redeem the character who was so evil in ESB (if you want to talk defanging the character, that might be more on point), but I think it makes sense in the context of a time when we didn't have the shitty prequels that are so shitty they have managed to get shit on the original films. They aren't perfect movies, but in their own context, they were enjoyable outings.

And hey, we're discussing the films over on Fanfare.
posted by nubs at 9:07 AM on October 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

Although unfortunately in the new-new version it also comes at the cost of having Hayden f-ing Christensen show up as Vader.

You know, Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw is bad to begin with; but what really chaps my hide is that not only could Lucas not be bothered to shoot new footage for it, but he couldn't even be bothered to cut and paste footage of Hayden where he isn't glowering like a creep.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:12 AM on October 21, 2015

Max Gladstone's Take on myth and history in a galaxy far, far away
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Music only edit
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:31 AM on October 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

My view on the prequels is that the good ideas got lost due to Lucas having a tin ear on character and performance.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:25 AM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

I came here to post a link to Burneko but I see that I've lost that race by a country mile. I was in my twenties by the time Jedi came out and yeah, I had issues with those fucking Ewoks. I didn't notice so much how watered down Vader was compared to the towering evil in Empire but Burneko's argument makes sense to me.

I just posted my own reaction to the trailer and Burneko's contentions in my own blog. But I'm not going to self-promote and link to that. This is my conclusion and why I have faith that Abrams (whose track record is spotty at best) is not going to screw the pooch:

This is, after all, a Disney project. The Mouse does not mess around. Look at their track record since Marvel became a Disney property. No, the Mouse knows how to milk a franchise opportunity; they’ve got this down to a science. Note that JJ Abrams' buddy Damon Lindelhof was not allowed anywhere near this script. Instead it was given to Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt. Both have had a few stiffs in their resume but still are light years and parsecs beyond Lindelhof’s miserable scripts (four words: Star Trek: Into Darkness). And god knows they won’t be making Lucas-level mistakes either. Oh, they’ll keep his goofy naming conventions but the dialog is going to get a major upgrade and that plot will be so tight it squeaks. Disney wants this to not only generate box office, but toy sales, amusement rides, revenue for eons. Nope, the Mouse is not going to let Abrams screw the pooch.
posted by Ber at 11:25 AM on October 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

Or at least tight enough that the holes in the big dumb blockbuster don't spoil the night.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:31 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

As I was saying to people that had initially harrumphed the Mouse taking over Star Wars because "all they care about is money": that's not an entirely bad thing here.
Disney doesn't want opening weekend money. They don't want Top 10 for the year money. They want ALL the money. In perpetuity. And they realize that you don't make that kind of money with some smash and grab Transmorphers bullshit that everyone has forgotten about on their way out of the theater. You make it by making something that people will gladly buy again in a new format 40 years from now. And that takes craft, story, and well...magic.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 12:30 PM on October 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

The Most Exciting Part of the New Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer? The New Music.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:43 PM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Goddamn Disney, making me hopeful about Star Wars again after I thought I had largely put it behind me

There you go, givin' a fuck when it ain't your turn to give a fuck.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:43 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Star Wars and Warcraft directors have a Twitter fight of intergalactic proportions
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:14 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Since I got old enough to start thinking critically about Star Wars rather than seeing it through the uncritical eyes of a child, I've held the opinion that Vader's redemption arc just plain didn't work well.

The act of redemption was, in a very real way, quite selfish. Anikin Skywalker, we must remember, has been the fist of the Emperor since the establishment of the Empire. He has not merely razed a few villages here and there he has presided over the genocide of anyone who dared to disagree with the Emperor, he has razed entire planets and while it was Tarkin who pulled the trigger on the destruction of Aldarran there is no doubt that Vader bears at least part of the responsibility for that as well, even going with a very lowball estimate that's at least two or three billion deaths in that moment alone.

And yet he is "redemed" because while watching his own son being tortured to death he intervened to stop it? For this we are to say that he turned a corner and became a better person?

It gets worse when you take the prequels into account. Even when he was ostentibly good, Anikin was never shown as anything but a self centered, short sighted, quick tempered, oaf. His actions in his fall make the sheer idiocy of Romeo and Juliet look positively well planned and like very reasonable decisions by sober minded individuals.

He gets infatuated with a girl he met once, briefly, when he was 9. Then he decides that, despite all the incredible medical technology surrounding him, that somehow she will die in childbirth. The idea that she might try a cesarian birth, or just have a good trauma team standing by, doesn't occurr to him. Nor apparently, does the thought of using contraception and avoiding the whole problem entirely.

And, apparently, it never even crosses his mind to consider talking to his numerous allies in the Jedi order, beginning with Obi Wan, about his deep mental problems, his forbidden love, etc? WTF Anikin?

So based on a totally irrational fear of Padme dying in childbirth, and a staggeringly stupid refusal to talk to his close friend and mentor, Anikin decides his best choice is to murder all his former friends and associates, kill tens (if not hundreds) of children, on the hope that an ancient legend **MIGHT** be true. Oh, and in a world filled with hostile telepaths he never contemplates the possibility that his fear of Padme dying might be implanted by an enemy rather than a premention from the Force?

He didn't fall into evil, he was so pig headed, thoughtless, and utterly lacking in introspection or reason that he was tricked by a plot a five year old could think their way out of.

And he never really showed much of a redemption arc. He never seemed to be really wavering until he found out Luke was his child. Is that really redemption or just more of the same utterly self centred thinking that got him into the dark side in the first place?

Vader's redemption rings hollow because his fall rings hollow. He didn't chose evil and then revise that choice, he made the same choice every single time: his own self interest as expressed by the desire to keep his genes going at all costs.
posted by sotonohito at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Music only edit

Holy shit that's amazing.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:25 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Luke plays calm and confident, but there's a moment where he has turned his back and Vader ignites Luke's lightsaber. I don't know if it was Hamill's decision, or the director, but Luke's poker face cracks and you can see his apprehension - that Vader can strike him down and he is defenseless; he's gambled everything on placing himself at his father's mercy and he might have been wrong.

If he'd sensed his father's feelings, he'd have known that Vader just fiddled nervously with gadgets whenever he was uncomfortable.
posted by homunculus at 1:42 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

he'd have known that Vader just fiddled nervously with gadgets whenever he was uncomfortable.

As pictured here.
posted by radwolf76 at 1:47 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

The one and only thing I never liked about ROTJ was that awful "Yub Nub" song at the end.

Burn the heretic!
posted by Mezentian at 2:01 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

There is an element of "Amazing Grace" to the conclusion of ROTJ. I think that is a common flaw in western redemption yarns.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:06 PM on October 21, 2015

Music only edit
Holy shit that's amazing.

You guys do not lie.
I haven't felt like this since.....
*swishes cape*
... Duel of the Fates.

No joke. That is amazing. So....
I am gobsmacked.


(I made an MP3. Not sure if the link will work)
posted by Mezentian at 2:07 PM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I also suspect that it's the point where the pseudo-dharmic bafflegab falls apart. Not that I think it makes the movies bad, just not that good as explorations of big moral questions. In other words, they're a perfect fit for Disney.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:18 PM on October 21, 2015

It makes me sad to think of all the money being spent on this stuff which could have gone into adaptations of Ancillary Justice

Hollywood touches Ancillary Justice over my dead body.

Seriously, that is an SF novel that would be ruined by putting it in any sort of visual medium. The basic use of pronouns forbids it.
posted by happyroach at 3:02 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, I don't think the movies were ever intended as explorations of big moral questions. They were supposed to be a fun return to the serialized movies George loved in his youth with a big helping of the Hero's Journey ladled on top, and then (like with some other stories) they grew in the telling. The problem is that the fundamental architecture was not strong enough to hold up to being a story with big moral questions (beyond the simple things about fear and hate and the Dark Side). But once the story bloated, those questions came along with it, but without any acknowledgement that those questions would create problems without some careful consideration of the story lines and arcs and how certain events were resolved.
posted by nubs at 3:02 PM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

It makes me sad to think of all the money being spent on this stuff which could have gone into adaptations of Ancillary Justice

People once said that of Ender's Game.

You just think on that.
posted by Mezentian at 3:09 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

I don't want to say that Ancillary Justice can't be a movie, because someone visionary out there might understand a way to do it...

But it seems to me to be one of those examples of where the medium (written language) is a fundamental part of the story. Taking it to a visual medium would just take that experience away.
posted by nubs at 3:19 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

happyroach, on her blog Ann Leckie says she just allowed Ancellary Justice to be optioned as a tv series.
posted by sotonohito at 3:21 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Power Converters at Tosche Station
posted by crossoverman at 3:27 PM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

The one thing I liked about the redemption arc of the original trilogy is that Vader is only redeemed in Luke's eyes (or, at least, that's how it seemed to me). It wasn't like Vader killed the Emperor in the full view of other people, and then the Ewoks and everyone were all singing his praises at the end. Only Luke saw it. Luke saw that there was some good in his father. Luke gave him a funeral pyre, all by himself. Nobody else on Endor was there — not Han, not even Leia, Vader's own daughter. So it wasn't like Vader was redeemed so much as Luke paying respects to the kernel of good in his father that remained despite the corruption of the dark side.

Now, I don't think that Lucas actually thought about any of this stuff. I don't know why he didn't have Leia at the funeral pyre — that seems like a very, very Lucas-like thing to do. But I don't think I'm doing a super deep read that goes against what's on-screen, either. It's more like, say, in elementary school Lucas really believed that 2 + 2 = 5, so he goes up to the chalkboard, and he writes in big numbers "2 + 2 = 5", but his handwriting is so bad that it looks like he wrote "2 + 2 = 4". It's not what Lucas intended, but he messed up into accidentally being right. Likewise, I think Lucas intended Vader to be 100% redeemed, which doesn't make sense. But he accidentally filmed it so Vader is only redeemed in Luke's eyes, and the rest of the universe sees him as Space Hitler. And that makes sense.

sotonohito: "And yet he is "redemed" because while watching his own son being tortured to death he intervened to stop it?"

I think you're arguing that Vader saving Luke was not only not enough to redeem him for the other billions killed (true) but that it was also a selfish act, since it was his own son. Setting aside the redeeming part (since I talked about that above), regarding the selfishness part, I think that within Star Wars, the dark side is seen as being an ultimately corruptive force that would make someone completely selfish and not at all hesitant to kill their own son, and I think the light side is seen as the only thing that can overcome the dark side. In other words, selfishness (wanting to protect your own son to carry on DNA) wouldn't turn you away from the dark side. Vader might selfishly want to replace the emperor, and have his own son be his second in command. Selfishness and the dark side go together that way. But when that doesn't work out, Vader sacrifices himself for his son, and self-sacrifice is extremely non-dark-sidian.
posted by Bugbread at 4:44 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Perhaps. But it's a dumb ass and disgustingly simplistic redemption.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Though i do love ROTJ for introducing the B-Wing. Such a strange looking, yet beautiful spaceship.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:55 PM on October 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think that I'd be fine with the redemption story if it weren't for the ghost Anakin lined up with Yoda and Obi Wan. It seemed like such a pandering Hollywood kind of ending that didn't really fit the rest of the movie.
posted by octothorpe at 5:01 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

The one thing I liked about the redemption arc of the original trilogy is that Vader is only redeemed in Luke's eyes

Boy, Luke really took that "true, from a certain point of view" talk to heart.

And yes, octothorpe. How the hell is Vader redeemed in Obi-Wan's eyes?
posted by nubs at 5:01 PM on October 21, 2015

But he accidentally filmed it so Vader is only redeemed in Luke's eyes, and the rest of the universe sees him as Space Hitler.

This is totally part of my head-canon, and I really hope that in the new movies Luke is off in exile somewhere at least in part because he tried to convince everyone that Vader had been "redeemed", which led to him becoming publicly reviled as "Vader's son" and a political liability for the Alliance/New Republic.
posted by The Tensor at 5:02 PM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Watch Mark Hamill basically pitch evil Luke Skywalker to J.J. Abrams in 2005
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:17 PM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

octothorpe: "I think that I'd be fine with the redemption story if it weren't for the ghost Anakin lined up with Yoda and Obi Wan."

Good point. I suppose I could wrangle a justification in that they are all Jedis and appreciate the power of the dark side and realize what it meant to have sacrificed oneself to fight it, but that feels less like "Lucas accidentally wrote 2 + 2 = 4" and more like "Sure, he wrote 2 + 2 = 5, but if I squint just right, I can make it look like 2 + 2 = 4".

I mean, even that self-deluding rationalization goes right out the window if I think about the new trilogy and Anakin's relationship to Yoda and Obi-Wan, but, honestly, fuck the new trilogy.
posted by Bugbread at 5:48 PM on October 21, 2015

Watch Mark Hamill basically pitch evil Luke Skywalker to J.J. Abrams in 2005

Actors love things to play. I totally get why he wants to play Evil!Luke. That doesn't mean it's a good story or anything Disney wants to do.
posted by crossoverman at 6:38 PM on October 21, 2015

How the Star Wars Trio Has Aged Gracefully — And the Undue Scrutiny on Carrie Fisher
posted by homunculus at 6:44 PM on October 21, 2015

Does Anakin's posthumous reunion with Yoda and Obi-Wan feel unearned?

Been a long time since I've seen Jedi, but I don't feel that way at all.

Yoda and Obi-Wan are Jedi. They don't hate Vader. They see him as a grave enemy, and they are sad for the loss of their friend, Anakin. But they don't hate him.

I think it's significant that Obi-Wan tells Luke that Anakin is dead, back on Tatooine. He is sort of bending the truth to protect Luke -- but I think it is also real to him. Anakin had been a great friend and ally. When Anakin becomes the murderous Vader, Obi-Wan comes to feel that his friend is gone -- Vader is not the same person as Anakin was. Anakin has been destroyed by the Dark Side.

In his sacrifice on the Death Star, Anakin comes back, manages to replace Vader, for the last moments of his life. His imminent death is tragic because this is the only time he will ever spend with his son. But, in the eternal communion of the Force, he can finally be reunited with his old friends.

I agree that the prequels make this reading harder to sustain, because in the prequels Anakin is an asshole more or less from birth. But I think that's just another way the prequels are crap. Reject the prequels, keep the emotional payoffs from the original series. Even the name, "Anakin," feels stupid now. It didn't before the prequels, I think!
posted by grobstein at 6:51 PM on October 21, 2015 [6 favorites]

How the Star Wars Trio Has Aged Gracefully — And the Undue Scrutiny on Carrie Fisher

Is she still a princess or has she moved up in the ranks?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Is she still a princess or has she moved up in the ranks?

Actually I think she's a General in the new canon.
posted by heathkit at 7:06 PM on October 21, 2015

Though i do love ROTJ for introducing the B-Wing. Such a strange looking, yet beautiful spaceship.

Designed by Ackbar! (Though it looks like something like a B-Wing is going to be showing up in the new season of Rebels... though, under canon, IIRC, it shouldn't be)
posted by drezdn at 7:53 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Actually I think she's a General in the new canon.

YASSSSSSSSSSS!
posted by crossoverman at 7:54 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Even the name, "Anakin," feels stupid now. It didn't before the prequels, I think!

Well for one it rhymes with mannequin, which seemed unfortunate in the original trilogy but quite prescient after suffering through both Hayden Christensen performances.
posted by Atom Eyes at 7:54 PM on October 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

Designed by Ackbar!

Well, he oversaw the Shantipole project, which worked with the Verpine company Slayn Korbol in the Roche belt. The Alliance needed a new heavy assault fighter, Ackbar had a few ideas and off he went.

True story: the first full test of the B-wing involved using the test articles to escape an Imperial attack on the research station.

Or, so I've heard.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 PM on October 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

The one and only thing I never liked about ROTJ was that awful "Yub Nub" song at the end. Say what you will about the tinkering Lucas did with the "special editions" back in the 90s, but replacing that song was worth it.

I remembered that the original Ewok song was bad, and I've always thought that the Jabba's Palace song in the Special Editions was just a ton of hot garbage, but I totally forgot until recently (finally!) watching the Despecialized Editions that the original Jabba's Palace song that Lucas replaced was just terrible. Should've booked Figrin D'an, Jabba.

Also it's impossible for me not to bust out laughing every time I see Nien Nunb in ROTJ after that one Venture Bros episode.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:25 PM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

How the Star Wars Trio Has Aged Gracefully — And the Undue Scrutiny on Carrie Fisher

Except all the commentary about 'Parkinson's' Solo (and I was guilty of that after the 'Chewie, we're home' moment) and 'Chubby Skywalker' (he's "not as agile as some of the cast members", apparently) and I do forget what the quips were about Billy Dee Williams recently.

(Have we heard much from anyone beyond Carrie about her weight? I gather it's part of her comedy routine).

They're all old.
So very old.

But, you know what? I am just so happy my first crush is in a Star Wars film. And I am so worried about why she looks so sad in that screencap.
posted by Mezentian at 8:44 PM on October 21, 2015

Yub Nub isn't great, but the generic Peruvian Band Performing Outside the Train Station they used to replace it is horrible.
posted by Bugbread at 8:48 PM on October 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Yub Nub is my jam.
I'm listening to it on vinyl now.

(and, from earlier in the movie, in the specials: my rage about 'Jedi Rocks' is close to my rage about Han's killing of Greedo).
posted by Mezentian at 8:52 PM on October 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

oh god I forgot it was called "Jedi Rocks"
posted by jason_steakums at 8:54 PM on October 21, 2015

So when I was in the choir in 6th grade, we sang at the World's fair in New Orleans. One of our songs was Ewok Celebration. We had a little band with drums and everything. This would have been embarrassing enough but our choir teacher decided to not introduce the song or explain that it was the Ewok song from Star Wars so we just went straight from some regular church song right into "Yub nub! Ee chop Yub nub! A toe mee toe peachy keen ganop dop fling ooh aaa!"

I can't remember a single other song we sang in the choir but I still know all the words to Ewok Celebration. Actually, that's not true. We also sang "What Shall We Do with the Drunken Sailor?" Catholic school was weird, y'all.
posted by artychoke at 9:15 PM on October 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

we sang in the choir but I still know all the words to Ewok Celebration.

And where is the next MeFi meetup?
posted by Mezentian at 11:47 PM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

suffering through both Hayden Christensen performances.

Crazy thing is, outside of the Star Wars universe Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are like great actors. It took George Lucas to drag shitty performances out of them.
posted by mikelieman at 1:09 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Full-length John Boyega reaction video (not the 15 second instagram one) splitscreened with the trailer. This is pretty great! "C'mon Kylo Ren."
posted by Jansku at 1:20 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I love the reaction video, must be amazing to have done the filming, fight scenes, etc, and see it with the visual/sound effects added for the first time.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:30 AM on October 22, 2015

I hate reaction videos, but John Boyega's video is amazing.

But that does that mean his character is a jedi?

That, and the lightsabre.

... what are the odds he's Mace Windu's bloodline?

(Also, is that his dad with him? WHY CAN'T WE SEE HIS full REACTION?)
posted by Mezentian at 2:25 AM on October 22, 2015

BB-8 reaction.
posted by Mezentian at 3:14 AM on October 22, 2015

The real truth about Ewoks.
posted by klausness at 3:21 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Truther.
posted by Mezentian at 3:59 AM on October 22, 2015

Finn's face and body language in the lightsaber shot with Kylo Ren read "Oh shit! I'm in over my head" to me, which is interesting and could support The World Famous' "Kylo Ren not actually a bad guy" theory, or the "Luke Skywalker jumps in at a key moment to save the day" theory someone else had earlier in the thread (sorry, can't find it.)

... what are the odds he's Mace Windu's bloodline?

If George Lucas was writing, the odds of this would be 100%, but he'd have to digitally alter the original trilogy again so we get to see Finn as a little kid.
posted by usonian at 4:31 AM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Nien Nunb

As a Nunb fan, I'm disappointed that, for some reason, Lego has never made a minifigure of everyone's favorite co-pilot. They've made another member of his race, but not him. Seriously Lego, make Nien Nunb.
posted by drezdn at 4:38 AM on October 22, 2015

, but he'd have to digitally alter the original trilogy again so we get to see Finn as a little kid

Yeah, but that would be 2030.
posted by Mezentian at 5:13 AM on October 22, 2015

But that does that mean his character is a jedi?

Here's my theory, based around Leia's line in the trailer: "The Force, it's calling to you. Just let it in."

If the Force surrounds us and penetrates us, like Obi-Wan says in A New Hope, there's really no judgement about whether you can or cannot use the Force. It might be a training thing. The Jedi Academy might have helped you harness the Force. But I wonder if maybe "using the Force" is now something that is more widely accepted. The Jedi Council was a pretty corrupting influence. Maybe you can be trained all your life to be a Stormtrooper but then later learn to use the Force without going through the Academy.

We see Boyega's character with a lightsaber, but I still believe Leia's line is to Ridley's character. The Force Awakens inside her, if she'll let it in.
posted by crossoverman at 5:21 AM on October 22, 2015

Isn't "The Force, it's calling to you. Just let it in." Maz Katana? (or whatever her name is?).

As much as I love the Liea learns the force idea, nothing we have seen so far suggests she uses the force.

SO MUCH SUSPENSE.
posted by Mezentian at 5:36 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

"The Force, it's calling to you. Just let it in."

No. I've been running around this goddamn planet, savaging shit to stay alive while its been napping. Maybe it should just wake the fuck up and get to the point, instead of being all mysterious. I got shit to do!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:13 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

mikelieman: "Crazy thing is, outside of the Star Wars universe Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are like great actors. It took George Lucas to drag shitty performances out of them."

I don't believe this opinion is universally held.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:31 AM on October 22, 2015

Diving in after reading this three for three days.

I think Vader's redemption arc works, even when taking the prequels into account. (This requires, however, that you view the prequels as they COULD HAVE BEEN, and not how they were. There are kernels of good ideas there that could have been made into better movies.)

From the beginning, Anakin was a dangerous choice for Jedi training. Yoda said that to Qui-Gon early on -- too old, too much baggage, etc. Anakin's big weakness was family and attachment -- unlike most padawans, he had a real relationship with his mother (and later watched her die). He was never able to get that Zen-like non-attachment thing that the other Jedis have. Palpatine took advantage of that weakness and played on Anakin's fears of losing Padme (yes, the relationship is contrived, but whatever). Anakin had already lost his mother and felt powerless to do anything about it, and here was a father figure of sorts telling him that there was a power available to him that could make sure he never lost anyone again. Given that Anakin never felt entirely comfortable with his light-side Jedi training (in part because they would have frowned on his relationship with Padme), it wasn't a stretch for him to be persuaded.

Fear leads to hate, etc. Ultimately, Anakin saw the detachment of Obi-Wan and Yoda as naive and outdated, and turned sides, believing this would give him greater power to protect those he loved. When Padme died anyway, Palpatine (like any abuser) convinced Anakin/Vader that it was his fault - he didn't do enough, wasn't strong enough, etc. Vader suppressed everything he ever cared about, and became the evil Space Hitler from the original trilogy.

Imagine Vader's surprise, 19 years later, to learn that he had a son, and that this fact had been hidden from him. All of those original emotions regarding family and attachment must have flown right back into him, and it must have taken all of his power to continue to suppress it. At first, he decides that the solution is to make Luke just like him - to rule the galaxy as father and son. He is surprised by Luke's fortitude, and by ROTJ, his resolve is continuing to weaken. When Palpatine attacks his son, Vader realizes that he's been had this entire time -- that Palpatine played on his fear of loss and impotence in order to use him to build his Empire. The only thing he can do to make things right is destroy Palpatine (and himself) to save his son. It's a small redemption, but Vader did horrible things, and can't be afforded any greater redemption.

And now, IN DEFENSE OF HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN AS FORCE-GHOST ANAKIN: Yes, I cringed too. But keep in mind that there is an entire generation of Star Wars fans who would be confused as hell to see 60-year-old Sebastian Shaw as force-ghost Anakin, given that he looked like Hayden Christensen just 20 years ago. It was a sensible change.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:06 AM on October 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Ben Trismegistus: "When Padme died anyway, Palpatine (like any abuser) convinced Anakin/Vader that it was his fault - he didn't do enough, wasn't strong enough, etc."

Thank you. I dislike the new trilogy, so anything that can reconcile something that makes no sense is appreciated. It doesn't make me like new trilogy, but it slightly lessens the pain. So the whole "keep people from dying" bit is one of the many nonsensical bits that bugged me. "My wife will die!" "If you come to the dark side, you can save her!" "Okay, for expressly that reason, I'll come to the dark side. Oh, wait, she died anyway! But I'm going to be loyal to you anyway for no reason!" -- it just makes no goddamn sense. But "You could have saved her, but you lacked conviction!" or the like makes that sequence less nonsensical.
posted by Bugbread at 7:21 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's not just me. At the end of Episode III, when Vader asks if Padme is safe, Palpatine says, "It appears that, in your anger, you killed her." He places the blame entirely on Vader, and then smiles when Vader freaks out.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:37 AM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's not just me. At the end of Episode III, when Vader asks if Padme is safe, Palpatine says, "It appears that, in your anger, you killed her." He places the blame entirely on Vader, and then smiles when Vader freaks out.

Oh that's right, Padme died of a broken heart.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I just double-checked, because that makes sense, so I was wondering "Why did that make no sense to me, then?" And here's the deal: yes, Palpatine says that. And then Vader says "I...I couldn't have. She was alive! I felt it!" Not "What? No!" but "She was alive! I felt it!"
Man, these movies make no fucking sense.
posted by Bugbread at 8:05 AM on October 22, 2015

he'd have to digitally alter the original trilogy again

A few weeks ago, I realized the greatest thing about the Mouse buying Star Wars that most people don't seem to get, otherwise there would still be dancing in the streets: George Lucas will never again be allowed to fuck up the OT anymore than he already has. No more ill-considered, poorly executed changes in any subsequent releases! He will never be able to add a Ronto to Cloud City or windows on a Dewback or make 4-LOM blink or make Gonk scream "nooooooooo."
posted by entropicamericana at 8:05 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

George Lucas will never again be allowed to fuck up the OT anymore than he already has.

Wouldn't it be great, if Jabba farted a lot while in his palace? Let's add it, the kids will love it!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:31 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Now if Disney can just find a way to restore and release the original trilogy without Lucas' enhancements.
posted by octothorpe at 9:13 AM on October 22, 2015

Now if Disney can just find a way to restore and release the original trilogy without Lucas' enhancements.

I want to believe!
posted by usonian at 9:16 AM on October 22, 2015

Don't be surprised if Disney releases a special edition of Song of the South in which the Uncle Remus character has been digitally erased from every shot and replaced with Jar Jar Binks.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:37 AM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Something comes to mind at the Venn diagram intersection of (a) the trepidation that JJ Will Screw This Up, (b) the tiresome geek practice of insisting that Any Media Product I Dislike Does Not Exist, and (c) the surpising but not-entirely-so thing I learned on the Star Wars Minute podcast that some millennials actually prefer the I-II-III trilogy: there are little kids right now who will be insisting on the Internet in 2033 that there were no Star Wars films until 2015.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:40 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I would watch the shit out of Jar-Jar Binks singing "Zippity Doo Dah."
posted by entropicamericana at 9:42 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

"It's like poetry, it rhymes."
posted by Chrysostom at 9:45 AM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I would also watch the hell out of a version of Song of the South with Jar-Jar replacing Uncle Remus.
posted by Gev at 9:51 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

"It's like poetry, it rhymes."

I mean, lyrically, yes, "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is fairly straightforward and contains a lot of rhyming lines. What's your point?
posted by The Tensor at 10:05 AM on October 22, 2015

I think Chrysostom's reply was meant for riochet biscuit's comment that there are going to be kids 18 years from now posting about how the franchise didn't really start until Disney started making them.

And a reference to the Lucas quote featured in this fanvid.
posted by radwolf76 at 10:11 AM on October 22, 2015

Yes, it was mocking Lucas, it didn't have anything to do with the actual soundtrack of Song of the South.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:13 AM on October 22, 2015

But also an astute observation on the cyclical nature of the fandom.
posted by radwolf76 at 10:15 AM on October 22, 2015

I would also watch the hell out of a version of Song of the South with Jar-Jar replacing Uncle Remus.

I can't figure out it that would be more or less racist.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:26 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Yes.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:53 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

One thing to keep in mind about Anakin's story. He felt guilty over his inability to stop his mom's death, and it plays into the way he reacts to the possibility of Padme dying.
posted by drezdn at 11:24 AM on October 22, 2015

I would watch the shit out of Jar-Jar Binks singing "Zippity Doo Dah."

I watched a 'making of' TPM video last night on YT with my kid (and what an eye opener it was for him, about how films are made in general and how this film was made in particular - I kind of feel like I took some magic from him, tbh), and was reminded about how terrible I felt for Ahmed Best at the time TPM came out. In the behind the scenes footage he's clearly having such a good time (even in Tunisia), and working hard to give Lucas the performance he (Lucas) wanted.

Kinda sucks having your most famous work be a punchline. On the upside, nobody much remembers his name.
posted by anastasiav at 11:40 AM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Crazy thing is, outside of the Star Wars universe Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are like great actors. It took George Lucas to drag shitty performances out of them.

There are some actors who are just plain good on screen, who always know what to do, and who are almost always the best things in the movie. Then there are some actors who are good at taking direction and collaborating with a director.

Lucas was never great at directing actors, and he got worse as his career went on. He didn't like to do it, and people who worked with him always said that. He was very hands off. The reason that the acting was better in Star Wars was because Harrison Ford basically took charge of his scenes, and he made everybody else better. Alec Guinness was a first rate actor, worked everything out himself, and made Obi Wan a legend.

In the prequels, Ewen McGregor was the best actor. But he's one of the naturals, and all he had to do was imitate Alec Guinness. Natalie Portman is a good actress, but she's someone who needs a director pulling her strings. Look at Black Swan. She's perfect. But she had a very talented director, Darren Aronofsky, giving her good direction. In the prequels, Lucas gave her nothing to work with, and she's totally at sea. It wasn't her fault.

Christensen, well... He's been OK when he has competent direction. In the prequels, he never had a chance.
posted by vibrotronica at 11:44 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

In the prequels, Lucas gave her nothing to work with, and she's totally at sea. It wasn't her fault.

My read on her was that somewhere during the making of SW II, she realized what a fucking trainwreck she was in and decided to just go through the motions and get out the other side.
posted by nubs at 12:28 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

One thing to keep in mind about Anakin's story. He felt guilty over his inability to stop his mom's death, and it plays into the way he reacts to the possibility of Padme dying.

His feelings are totally normal, yet the character still came off as complete dick whom you wished Obi Wan had killed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Informed speculation: One of the Jakku micro machine sets has both Rey's Speeder and Kylo Ren's transport. Making me think Ren makes an appearance there.
posted by drezdn at 1:18 PM on October 22, 2015

Anakin's big weakness was family and attachment...He was never able to get that Zen-like non-attachment thing that the other Jedis have. Palpatine took advantage of that weakness and played on Anakin's fears

Ben, I think that's a really good read on what happens and I agree with you. But it creates a problem with the story logic for me - and I think many viewers - because positive attachments to family and friends are regarded as good things in general. So when the Jedi Order is revealed in the second film to be against "love" and strong attachment, you get this real "wha???" moment for the audience. Fear and hate are the path to the Dark Side, but now love is too? Indifference is the answer?

And Ani's need for attachment is never shown as healthy. Obi-Wan describes him as a friend and loyal in ANH, but all we see of that relationship is Ani whining and whinging about Obi-Wan, and how he chafes against his mentor. He obsesses over Padme and spends the second film as a somewhat creepy stalker. And then it is his weird emotional problems that the Emperor can manipulate.

I mean, I think the Jedi do need to act from a place of rational thought and informed decision making. They have a lot of power and a great deal of ability to cause destruction out of any strong desire; but instead of "no attachment" I was expecting a Jedi Order that worked from a place of "informed compassion". That is Luke's break-through moment in RotJ - he uses his anger and fear to win against Vader, but at the crowning moment he sees Vader's missing hand and looks at his own. He knows what the moment is like; he can empathize with Vader and not only feel the Force flowing through him, but his own feelings as well, and choose his actions. Using his fear for his sister and his anger at Vader, he was able to triumph in the fight; but using empathy, he is able to turn away from the course the Emperor is trying to set him upon and win the battle. "You must learn control," Yoda told him in ESB; and Luke did - not just control of the Force, but control of himself and his emotions and how to make decisions informed by them.

Maybe the point that was being made here was that the Republic was corrupt and the Jedi were off-base in their approach and philosophy, and so the whole thing was ripe for a fall. I mean, we know George has political thoughts about the virtues of benevolent dictatorship, and he could well have some thoughts (or issues) about emotional decision making that are being played out in the Jedi storyline. But if that's the case, the points are horribly muddled, unclear, and I think - particularly in the case of the Jedi and emotion - things that I am reading into the story in an attempt to make it make sense, retroactively.
posted by nubs at 1:18 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

That is Luke's break-through moment in RotJ - he uses his anger and fear to win against Vader, but at the crowning moment he sees Vader's missing hand and looks at his own. He knows what the moment is like; he can empathize with Vader and not only feel the Force flowing through him, but his own feelings as well, and choose his actions. Using his fear for his sister and his anger at Vader, he was able to triumph in the fight; but using empathy, he is able to turn away from the course the Emperor is trying to set him upon and win the battle.

My own interpretation and understanding of that scene has always been that Luke realized that he was becoming like his father, drawing upon the strengths inherent in the Dark Side via anger, and like his father, he would someday become just as much a mechanical beast. Luke definitely had empathy for Vader, but I think it came a second after he was hit with the realization that he was turning into Vader - piece by artificial piece.

The Original Trilogy definitely establishes a bright line: the Dark Side is this and the Light Side is this, and there is no middle ground. A Jedi doesn't draw his strength from the same well as those who use the Dark Side.
posted by Atreides at 1:25 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

nubs, you're absolutely right -- that is a weakness of the Jedi. There's an article somewhere (not going to look for it) about how, in any rational universe, the unfeeling Jedi would be the bad guys. The fact that Anakin could betray Jedi ideals merely by having a girlfriend seems stupid.

But I think this is what they mean by "bringing balance to the Force" -- the Force doesn't want people to be either ascetic monks or angry Space Nazis. In a very real way, the Jedis' idea of non-attachment was their downfall -- a little more compassion for Anakin could've gone a long way. So Luke, I think, represents that balance between the Light Side (Yoda/Obi-Wan) and the Dark Side (Vader). It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Another thing Bill Kristol is wrong about? The Empire.
posted by drezdn at 1:50 PM on October 22, 2015

McGregor is a natural but the climax of Revenge made him sound like a high school production. And if you manage to suck all the fun from both Lee and Jackson, that's superlative bad writing and direction.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:37 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Bill Kristol is getting really, really good at trolling on Twitter.
posted by AndrewInDC at 3:50 PM on October 22, 2015

I am probably the one person on the planet who didn't have a problem with the little kid in the first movie. Most of the crap ("Yippee!" "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick") is stuff that not even the best actor could salvage, and horrible lines were evenly distributed among all the characters (with a bonus for jar-jar). The story, how the kid was used, etc., sucked, but Jake Lloyd himself was fine.

But that's in defense of Jake Lloyd, not the movie itself. As far as that goes, if you want to present the downfall of Anakin in any non-stupid way, you need to have three films which all have adult Anakin. No child Anakin and no teen Anakin. In the first movie, Anakin and Obi-Wan are friends. I don't mean that they become friends, I mean that they already are friends. So you see like two hours of them being "good friends". Then, in the second movie, you can show the cracks start to form. Then, in the third movie, you can show the caving in to the dark side.
posted by Bugbread at 3:56 PM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

The prequels should have started with a better AOTC, then a better ROTS, and then a movie where Anakin has gone full Vader and Obi Wan and Yoda and the few remaining Jedi and folks like Bail Organa and Mon Mothma are on the run. Put a little drama into Obi Wan's post-AOTC story so it's more than "sup, Lars, want this kid?" and show Vader at his worst so you can get the full picture of him and he can go out on a higher note than "NOOOOOOOO!"
posted by jason_steakums at 4:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

Ben Trismegistus while I think you make some good arguments, I still disagree about redemption even in the limited sense you propose. I'd argue that redemption necessitates a change in thinking, a break from the behaviors and patterns of the past, or else it's just talk.

And Anakin didn't display any changes in thinking or behavior when he killed Darth Sidious to save Luke.

Look at what got him into trouble in the first place: deciding to engage in violence to preserve the lives of those people he felt were important. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, using violence to preserve the lives of people we feel are important can be good. But Anakin did so thoughtlessly, without consideration of what else his actions might do, and dove into bad shit all on the slimmest hope that maybe, possibly, his course of action might allow him to save Padme.

And I saw basically a continuation of that with his decision to kill the Emperor. Not that the Emperor didn't have it coming, not that the galaxy wasn't a better place without him, but from a redemption standpoint wasn't acceptable. He did the same thing, for the same reasons, using the same line of thinking. That we accept his choice of target in the second instance still doesn't make the act redemptive.

In both cases it's all about him, his control, his violence, his beliefs. If he'd been shown loosening his attempted control of the universe, changing his mind and his way of acting, I could see some redemption. But he didn't. He acted as he always had, and because of that I can't say he was redeemed. If you read Order of the Stick, I think the comic involving Miko's attempt at redemption sums it up well. If you don't read Order of the Stick, it's really quite good. Starts off slow, just a sort of average poking fun at the AD&D rules comic, but after about fifty comics it really turns a corner and becomes something special.

Leaving aside entirely the question of whether or not Anakin was redeemed in the eyes of anyone but Luke, whether or not his actions at the end even slightly made up for his prior actions, I still argue that since he basically continued on as he always had, he wasn't redeemed. The Anakin who saved Luke is not a significantly different person than the Anakin who killed Mace Windu in hopes of saving Padme. At the end he would look back on his life and say that he'd done what seemed right, proper, and reasonable in all cases. And for that reason, I say he did not achieve redemption.

Bill Kristol tweeted

No objective evidence Empire was "evil." A liberal regime w meritocracy, upward mobility. Neocon/reformicon in spirit.

Well, I can't say he's wrong that it was neocon/reformicon in spirit. The Empire was racist, sexist, employed torture as a regular practice, and blew stuff (planets in this case) up in an effort to distract the population from internal problems via waving the bloody shirt. Sounds very neocon to me.
posted by sotonohito at 4:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think you're right, but I think it's a case of the prequels fucking things up again. In the original trilogy, it never says why Vader turned to the dark side. As a kid/teenager/young adult I assumed it was greed, selfishness, that kind of dark side allure. So sacrificing himself to save someone else (Luke) was an act that was exactly opposite of his turn to the dark side. But then in the prequels George "It's like poetry, it rhymes" Lucas made Anakin turn to the dark side out of a desire to protect family members. Which transforms the saving of Luke from being a break from the dark side into doing the exact same kinda thing that led him to the dark side in the first place.

Which I guess means I still think Vader was redeemed in the eyes of Luke (but not the rest of the universe) because fuck reevaluating the original trilogy on the basis of new information from the prequels.
posted by Bugbread at 4:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Seeing that very first Star Wars trailer made me want to watch this repeatedly.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:47 PM on October 22, 2015

...There's an article somewhere (not going to look for it) about how, in any rational universe, the unfeeling Jedi would be the bad guys...

posted by Ben Trismegistus 3 ¼ hours ago [3 favorites +] [!]

Hmm.

Or should I say Hmm, Darth Trismegistus?
posted by XMLicious at 4:56 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

It almost makes sense if you buy the team light vs team dark mythology, but another plot of the larger universe is that the Jedi are prigs with a compass skewed from a true north that may or may not exist in universe.

Which I think is a major flaw in the larger narrative universe us that it can't quite decide on its moral realism. (Unlike LOTR, where it's about trust in divine provenance.) Worse when this gets dumped onto the lap of a studio like Bioware who further reduces it to a dialogue wheel of light, dark, and neutral between levels of mass murder. (But I'm not bitter.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:02 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Seeing that very first Star Wars trailer made me want to watch this repeatedly.

This also got the special edition treatment (unauthorized).
posted by radwolf76 at 5:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is it really true that Billy Dee Williams got shafted for this? I just assumed he would turn up, but he's not on the cast list as listed on IMDB. and Kasdan has confirmed he's not in No. 7.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:11 PM on October 22, 2015

There's another thing I don't get about the Force. The whole "There are always two, a master and an apprentice."

So ... Sith don't reproduce? If you could kill both of them, that would be it? And why would a master take on an apprentice if they knew the apprentice was going to try to kill them?

Surely it would make more sense if there were a bunch of bad Jedi as well as good Jedi, and "master/apprentice" thing just means that senior Jedi like having interns around, because who wouldn't.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:45 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Jedi are awful in their every moment. If that wasn't meant to be the point then I don't even know what to say. I think it's enough that they work as enforcers for a system where slavery is okay, but then what they value in their trainees and how they're raised and trained? Ugh. Maybe you write off that they leave Anakin's mother in slavery as a one-off because he's an outlier and they just don't think about it, but they clearly regularly separate kids from their parents... for what? To raise them in service of a corrupt or at best disinterested government? Nasty.
posted by phearlez at 7:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

And don't forget that in Ep3 the Jedi really were going to overthrow the elected government of the Republic and kill its legally elected leader.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:20 PM on October 22, 2015

phearlez: " I think it's enough that they work as enforcers for a system where slavery is okay"

Slavery has been mentioned a few times, but I'm not sure what it's in reference to. The only slavery I can recall was on Tattooine, which wasn't part of the Republic (hence that whole confusing pod race bet thing). Am I forgetting some slavery inside the Republic?
posted by Bugbread at 8:32 PM on October 22, 2015

Says here that Billy Dee will be in Ep8.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

There's another thing I don't get about the Force. The whole "There are always two, a master and an apprentice."

So ... Sith don't reproduce? If you could kill both of them, that would be it? And why would a master take on an apprentice if they knew the apprentice was going to try to kill them?

Rule of Two
posted by homunculus at 8:35 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Rule of Two

Thanks.

OK, so yeah. The Sith have the worst career advancement policy imaginable. There are only two Sith in the entire galaxy or universe or whatever. And every apprentice inevitably kills their master or dies in the attempt. And none of them ever think "Hey, maybe I can just go off and rule a planet or even a large moon by myself."

If both Sith had died in that struggle, even once, there would be literally no dark Jedi left. Even if a master had died before choosing an apprentice, no dark Jedi. Apparently it really is that stupid.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

If both Sith had died in that struggle, even once, there would be literally no dark Jedi left

Some Jedi somewhere will go all evil and find a deserted Sith temple/holocron/widget.

Or, there are numerous force-using apprentices/inquisitors/dark sisters/foot soldiers who could level up into your actual Sith.

Says here that Billy Dee will be in Ep8.

I'm okay with it, but did everyone survive from ROTF to TFA era?
Did no one of the major characters (or even "minor" characters such as Ackbar or Numb) not die in the decades long uprising/rebellion?

(Wedge, I assume must have died).
posted by Mezentian at 9:10 PM on October 22, 2015

So Luke, I think, represents that balance between the Light Side (Yoda/Obi-Wan) and the Dark Side (Vader). It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

There's an outcast Jedi in KOTOR who had a hard time reconciling Jedi-dom and love, and his character and story is 1000x more interesting than Anakin's.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:21 PM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Slavery has been mentioned a few times, but I'm not sure what it's in reference to. The only slavery I can recall was on Tattooine, which wasn't part of the Republic (hence that whole confusing pod race bet thing). Am I forgetting some slavery inside the Republic?

Both the Repubic and the Empire have an entire population of what really can't be defined as anything but slaves. And nobody protests against it. If it helps, they show up in every movie.
posted by happyroach at 10:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

happyroach: "Both the Repubic and the Empire have an entire population of what really can't be defined as anything but slaves."

Okay, totally willing to believe you, but can you provide me any more information? What movies are they in? What planet? How do you know they're slaves? Is this expanded universe Star Wars novel stuff we're talking, or something in the original trilogy, or the prequels, or what?

(Okay, not so interested in the Empire having slaves, but I don't recall ever hearing about Republic slaves)
posted by Bugbread at 10:43 PM on October 22, 2015

Remember who's saying "Master Luke" all the time?
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:52 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

happyroach: “Both the Repubic and the Empire have an entire population of what really can't be defined as anything but slaves.”

“The Horrifying Hidden Subplot You Missed in Star Wars”—Cracked After Hours, 15 September 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 11:09 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

P.S. Spoiler Alert: It's Droids, Bugbread. Sorry for being unnecessarily vague.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:13 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Ah, okay, yeah, got it. Thanks.
posted by Bugbread at 11:22 PM on October 22, 2015

P.S. Spoiler Alert: It's Droids.

Look, fellas, one of 'em 'droid lovers'....
posted by Mezentian at 1:45 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Did no one of the major characters (or even "minor" characters such as Ackbar or Numb) not die in the decades long uprising/rebellion?

How quickly you forget Biggs, Dutch, Porkins, Tiree, and Dak...
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Tiree

Yavin doesn't count.
I'm post ROTJ.

Also, obscure choices with Tiree and Dutch.
I tip my hat.
posted by Mezentian at 3:07 AM on October 23, 2015

Can beings specifically created to serve (ie programmed to obey others) truly be considered slaves?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:08 AM on October 23, 2015

They have a capacity for suffering and do get tortured in the films.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:37 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yes, but they don't have a desire to be free, do they? So they're less like slaves and more like children, in that you can tell them what to do, but you can't torture them. (Obviously, the child analogy isn't perfect, for lots of reasons. I just mean that they're like children in terms of the specific "lack of freedom = acceptable, torture = unacceptable" axis)
posted by Bugbread at 3:53 AM on October 23, 2015

Exactly.
Why does Power Droid need pain sensors on its feet?
And why does 9D9 take pleasure in torture.

We need to think deeper.
posted by Mezentian at 3:54 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

From Wookipedia:
"Although it is not known when she came to work there, EV-9D9 was a supervisor droid under the Baron Administrator, Lando Calrissian for Cloud City. The droid kept a low profile while working there so she could pursue her ambitions unnoticed. EV-9D9 was just one of the malfunctioning EV-series supervisor/interrogator droid abominations created by MerenData and was one of the few droids who escaped capture when the EV-series supervisor/interrogator droid was to be destroyed after owners of the droids found out their cruel nature. While at Cloud City EV-9D9 added to herself a third eye just next to her left eye, which could "see" the droid equivalent of pain, which manifested as jumbled, incoherent signals. She had a pain simulator and a sadomasochistic personality, which was caused by an accidentally installed MDF motivator, taking great pleasure in the pain of droids."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:24 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

You know, usually Star Wars wookipedia fluff is just incredibly flat and boring. I could read Wikipedia entries on Warhammer 40K all day (before the Great Culling of like 2006), but wookipedia stuff just makes my eyes glaze over. But that EV-9D9 but you quoted there, that's quality fluff.
posted by Bugbread at 4:40 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Yes, but they don't have a desire to be free, do they? So they're less like slaves and more like children, in that you can tell them what to do, but you can't torture them.

Turn that around: if slave owners could remove the desire for freedom from slaves, don't you think they would?
posted by happyroach at 4:51 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

happyroach: "Turn that around: if slave owners could remove the desire for freedom from slaves, don't you think they would?"

Well, yes. And if people could make dogs do their taxes, they would, but I don't think you can say "and therefore dogs are accountants."
posted by Bugbread at 5:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

What are the clones of the Republic army but slaves designed (genetically engineered) to follow orders and not want to be free? Not much different from droids.
(The spec-ops clones/commandos/ARC troopers etc were given more free will, and thus there are various stories about them disobeying orders and going AWOL after the fall of the Republic)
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Brandon Blatcher: "Can beings specifically created to serve (ie programmed to obey others) truly be considered slaves?"

Deliberately creating a sentient being with the desire to serve you seems very unethical to me.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:19 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Didn't realize until today that the actor who plays Poe in TFA is the dude who played Nathan in Ex Machina.
posted by drezdn at 6:40 AM on October 23, 2015

Yes, but they don't have a desire to be free, do they?

If they didn't desire to be free, you wouldn't need to put restraining bolts on them.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:49 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

The characterization of the droids in Star Wars is just super weird and not thought out on any level. It doesn't hold up to like, 30 seconds of scrutiny! Especially the battle droids. If any droid was going to be a mindless, nonsentient tool it would be those droids, who are all controlled from a central location off the battlefield... but they have wacky, jokey interactions with each other in private. And ranks! They shut off completely when the control ship goes down, so they're not autonomous - why do higher ranked battle droids give verbal orders to others?
posted by jason_steakums at 7:00 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

If they didn't desire to be free, you wouldn't need to put restraining bolts on them.
Interesting bit from Wookiepedia:

A restraining bolt, also known as a restraining separator bolt, was a small device that could be attached to most droids used to ensure their obedience. More specifically, when fitted with a restraining bolt, droids could not leave the area designated by their owner, and were forced to obey commands given from a small remote device called a caller (such as "COME" and "STOP"). When activated, the restraining bolt turned off a droid's motor impulse without actually shutting down the droid. Restraining bolts had to be secured to specific locations on the droid.
Restraining bolts could also be used to shut down a droid, and power it back up again. This could be used to force a restart if there was an error in the droid's memory. The shut down could be accomplished with a switch on the bolt, or through the use of the caller. Kell Tainer helped Myn Donos restart his droid Shiner using this method after Empion mines had disabled the squadron.
The astromech droid R2-D2 tricked his new owner Luke Skywalker into removing his restraining bolt, so that he could leave the Lars homestead and seek out Obi-Wan Kenobi. R2-D2 and C-3PO were also fitted with restraining bolts during the Bakuran Crisis. The assassin/protocol droid HK-47 also had a restraining bolt, so that he could not leave the droid shop until he was purchased and collected. Whistler, Corran Horn's R2 unit, had a unique mechanism which shifted control points internally, allowing the droid to avoid being controlled by restraining bolts at all. EV-9D9 also modified herself so as to be immune to restraining bolts, and (for obvious reasons) security droids such as the G-2RD could not be disabled by standard restraining bolts.
Droid rights activists abhorred use of the technology but supporters of anti-droid sentiment embraced it.

Emphasis mine on that last little tidbit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:16 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Deliberately creating a sentient being with the desire to serve you seems very unethical to me.

It has shade of grey, sure, but it's not a slam dunk either way. It's a tool that can be terribly abused.

For instance, with C3PO, programming him to serve makes sense, as you don't want your translator going all cowboy on you whenever it feels like it. Programming it to be helpful and obedient is crucial to its job.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:27 AM on October 23, 2015

If they didn't desire to be free, you wouldn't need to put restraining bolts on them.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe

And here I was just thinking that Banks' views of AI rights made for a pretty interesting contrast.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 7:28 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

They have a capacity for suffering

They seem to be made to suffer. It is their lot in life.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [17 favorites]

jason_steakums: "The characterization of the droids in Star Wars is just super weird and not thought out on any level. It doesn't hold up to like, 30 seconds of scrutiny!"

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more pretty much every argument (I'm not talking droids, I'm talking about everything in Star Wars) is like dancing about architecture. It's not even like it's consistently inconsistent, where you can say "Well, in the movie they state X, but what they show is the opposite of X, so they're lying/wrong about X". It's more like "Well, in the movie they state X, and then later on they show X, and then they show the opposite of X, and then Y happens, and Y is only caused by X, and then Z happens, but Z can only happen if X doesn't happen, so...so X is both simultaneously true and not true at the same time." There's not even enough consistency to tear stuff down within the world, all you can do is point out how poorly thought out everything is and say "that scene doesn't make sense".
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

The Jedi are awful in their every moment. If that wasn't meant to be the point then I don't even know what to say. I think it's enough that they work as enforcers for a system where slavery is okay, but then what they value in their trainees and how they're raised and trained? Ugh. Maybe you write off that they leave Anakin's mother in slavery as a one-off because he's an outlier and they just don't think about it, but they clearly regularly separate kids from their parents... for what? To raise them in service of a corrupt or at best disinterested government?

But here's the problem with that - if the Jedi are the enforcers of a corrupt system, then who are we supposed to be cheering for? Our heroes in the prequels are on the wrong side, defending a horrid system that exists only to preserve itself. But we can't cheer for the Emperor, because we know what the Empire becomes. And then in the original trilogy, do we want to be rooting for a return the style of government that existed in the prequels?
posted by nubs at 8:11 AM on October 23, 2015

The "we don't server their kind in here" line in the Cantina scene seems to pretty explicitly cast the droids as stand-ins for an under-class.
posted by octothorpe at 8:26 AM on October 23, 2015

That, or the cantina just doesn't sell motor oil or whatever. Droids don't drink space alcohol, but they do take up space space.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:43 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Didn't realize until today that the actor who plays Poe in TFA is the dude who played Nathan in Ex Machina.

Oscar Isaac as Poe, Domhnall Gleeson as General Hux. All they need to do is get Alicia Vikander. Then we might be able to explode the themes of droid slavery/the robot AI underclass into a full-on part of the story.

I was bemused the other day, poking around on Wookiepedia (part of my brain always goes "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" when I go there) to see that in some EU story, during the battle of the Endor Moon an IG-88 unit that had developed advanced AI had infiltrated the second Death Star and was controlling the weapons system, with a plan of eliminating both Empire & Rebels in order to found a droid civilization.
posted by nubs at 8:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

The characterization of the droids in Star Wars is just super weird and not thought out on any level. It doesn't hold up to like, 30 seconds of scrutiny! Especially the battle droids.

The battle droids were especially weird in the second Clone Wars series, as essentially they were comic relief. Silly, marginally dangerous, comic relief to be killed off in humorous ways. Who would program quips to be used right when your droid recognizes it's about to be destroyed?

(In my transhumanist Star Wars daydream, it would be because there's really only two droid AIs, and they do it to amuse themselves, and they really don't give a shit if they lose a couple- or a couple thousand droids. And they're not to smart individually, because YOU try networking a couple million game pieces.)


And then the clones. Putting the lie to the line about how they have limited personalities, and such a weird dissonance to realize we're rooting for essentially, proto-stormtroopers. I myself would get annoyed when we switched away from the ongoing tragedy of the clones to focus on that stupid Anakin.

Sup yeah, there's a lot of weird moral contradictions in Star Wars...which I suppose actually helps make it feel more like a real setting, because real societies diohave moral compromises and acceptable evils to them, even when they are the good guys. And maybe it all gets typo much and you want to hide away from it all on a swamp or jungle planet.
posted by happyroach at 9:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

The actual GOOD point of the convoluted plot of Attack Of The Clones is this: The acceptance of the clone army—and thus slavery—was the downfall of the Republic. Palpatine orchestrated the "construction" of the clone troopers and then backed the Jedi Council into the corner with the Separatist war. When the Republic and the Jedi Council realized they had need of a huge, competent standing army, they conveniently had one ready to go. It was distasteful, because it was "soft" slavery, of the kind the Republic's treatment of sentient robots already tacitly accepted, but it was necessary to defend against an unexpectedly large and well-organized threat. At the end of the Battle of Geonosis (the "planet of knowledge"), Yoda begins to see the outlines of the trap. That's why he says they didn't win the battle. Had a more competent screenwriter been involved, it would have been more obvious, but the whole Sypho-Dias subplot is so badly handled and then forgotten that it doesn't register. The Jedi didn't START as defenders of a corrupt system, and by the time they realized what was happening and tried to depose Palpatine, it was too late, because Palpatine had control of Aanakin.
posted by vibrotronica at 9:54 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

Who would program quips to be used right when your droid recognizes it's about to be destroyed?

It's called an Easter Egg.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:02 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

I was bemused the other day, poking around on Wookiepedia (part of my brain always goes "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" when I go there) to see that in some EU story, during the battle of the Endor Moon an IG-88 unit that had developed advanced AI had infiltrated the second Death Star and was controlling the weapons system, with a plan of eliminating both Empire & Rebels in order to found a droid civilization.

If I remember correctly, that story was called "Kevin J. Anderson Shits All Over Your Favorite Minor Character's Backstory." The whole droid-supremacy concept was done better in the children's audiobook adaptation of the Marvel Comics "Droid World" storyline for crying out loud.

Honestly, even if this movie is a big terrible winking, lens-flarey, time-travelly JJ-Abramsified clusterfuck it will still have done a great service to Star Wars fans galaxywide by forcing the decanonization of the execrable Expanded Universe.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:23 AM on October 23, 2015

For instance, with C3PO, programming him to serve makes sense, as you don't want your translator going all cowboy on you whenever it feels like it. Programming it to be helpful and obedient is crucial to its job.

That's a good explanation for why it would be convenient for you to have slaves with no impulse to be free, but it's not a good ethical justification for creating such slaves.
posted by The Tensor at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Of course it is, as having complete control of the translation act is the paramount concern, not whether a droid enjoys doing so or even wants to.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on October 23, 2015

The Tensor: please write a unittest for the impulse_to_be_free function.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:16 AM on October 23, 2015

Return of the Jedi is not good. C’mon. You’ll feel better when you just put it out there and name it.

What?! Did you even see the way the Ewoks smashed that walker between two logs suspended by vines? Or tripped the other one by rolling more logs under its feet? *shakes head* None so blind, &c….
posted by wenestvedt at 11:30 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

That's a good explanation for why it would be convenient for you to have slaves with no impulse to be free, but it's not a good ethical justification for creating such slaves.

Of course, droids didn't just blink into existence as a fill in for a slave class. They began just like your roomba or auto assembly line automaton. Sentience and AI were probably the result of engineers wanting to create robotic assistants who could understand and interface much easier with the layperson, not to mention, make them more versatile. Why worry about reprogramming a droid with lines of code, etc..etc...when you simply give it the ability to learn by example or by verbal instruction? Sentience wasn't intended to create new life forms in this galaxy, it was most likely intended to make using robots easier in every day life.

So for the galaxy at large, at what point should they have recognized the droids as sentient slaves from when they viewed them originally as automatic floor vacuuming machines?
posted by Atreides at 11:52 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Seamus : Maybe I should just go to the theater to watch this with the kid, enjoy his reaction, and let all that additional SW crap slide into the hazy depths of my brain.

Seamus, as one dad to another, I have to tell you: search your feelings, you know it to be true the right thing to do.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2015

Who would program quips to be used right when your droid recognizes it's about to be destroyed?

This guy, perhaps, going for something a bit more light-hearted on his next project. (SLSubnormality)
posted by effbot at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Seamus, as one dad to another, I have to tell you: search your feelings, you know it to be true the right thing to do.

As another dad who has searched his feelings: I can't tell you how much joy it brings me to think about taking my sons to see a brand new Star Wars movie, like my father before me.
posted by nubs at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

"I think that I'd be fine with the redemption story if it weren't for the ghost Anakin lined up with Yoda and Obi Wan."

I think the solution is to say that there's no actual life after death in the Star Wars universe. Those ghosts are just one of the ways a Jedi interprets his or her connection to The Force. It was The Force that told Luke to turn off his targeting computer and trust his feelings, but his brain interpreted it as a voice, naturally as Ben's voice.

Luke's vision at the end of RotJ is just the way his mind interprets his sense that The Great Disturbance in The Force has been put to rest.
posted by straight at 3:04 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

If they didn't desire to be free, you wouldn't need to put restraining bolts on them.

This also demonstrates that rivers desire to be free.
posted by straight at 3:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Rivers belong where they can ramble, yes.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:18 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

As another dad who has searched his feelings: I can't tell you how much joy it brings me to think about taking my sons to see a brand new Star Wars movie, like my father before me.

As a not-father, I can't tell you how sad all my friends with children are that their kids have no interest in Star Wars.

It's all Minecraft and anime these days.
posted by Mezentian at 3:44 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

My son was totally into Star Wars for years but I was out with him and his girlfriend last week and she was complaining that he wasn't going to take her out to see the new Star Wars. I'm not sure what I did wrong as a parent. We said that we'd take her and he could stay home.
posted by octothorpe at 3:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

As someone who grew up with Star Wars (saw the first movie in the theater when I was 8 years old), Minecraft >>> Star Wars, and I'd be disappointed if my kids didn't agree.
posted by straight at 3:57 PM on October 23, 2015

At least there was one human female in Star Wars.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:01 PM on October 23, 2015

Relevant: Return Of The Jedi Was Great, You Ewok-Slandering Fools
posted by Mezentian at 4:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Mezentian: "As a not-father, I can't tell you how sad all my friends with children are that their kids have no interest in Star Wars."

We should become friends then, and then I can introduce you to my other friends-who-are-dads-and-who-like-star-wars. All of our kids are excited. My younger son is already picking out Star Wars Lego he wants for Christmas.
posted by Bugbread at 4:28 PM on October 23, 2015

It's all Minecraft and anime these days.

My son was looking through the Star Wars skins in Minecraft today, to pick one. So it's not either-or.

I'm the mom, and it is also going to give me an enormous amount of joy to take my son to see a new Star Wars movie (at 9 pm! Costumes! Opening day!). It also gives me joy that we'll take his father with us.
posted by anastasiav at 8:26 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

My son mainly likes the lego takes on Star Wars, and particularly The Clone Wars and General Grievious. I don't think he's that excited about the new movie at this point.

Re Slavery in the Empire: IIRC, Rebels specifically mentions that Wookies were forced into slavery by the Empire.
posted by drezdn at 10:11 PM on October 23, 2015

I see a lot of reasons why people would be worshiping Vader but not the Emperor.

Reason 1: He's not Lenin.
Reason 2: He's wifi-ready
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Where's Max von Sydow?
I just watched the supercut, and he appears to be missing.
posted by Mezentian at 12:50 AM on October 24, 2015

Reason 1: He's not Lenin.

The force of historical inevitability is strong with this one.
posted by Dr Dracator at 2:57 AM on October 24, 2015

Return of the Jedi was great, you Ewok-slandering fools

Not slander. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print it's libel.
posted by wabbittwax at 3:03 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Where's Max von Sydow?

There was some trouble back at the brewery.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:25 PM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

At least there was one human female in Star Wars.

You have something against Twi'lek sexpots?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:40 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Everyone forgets Mon Mothma.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:41 PM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]

Many Bothans died that we might remember.
posted by nubs at 6:44 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Everyone forgets General Madine.
posted by Mezentian at 7:04 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Where's Max von Sydow?

He's stuck in a Weirwood tree.
posted by homunculus at 7:46 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Reason 1: He's not Lenin.

In other news...
posted by homunculus at 3:56 PM on October 25, 2015

I like the idea of Han Solo as the new Obi-Wan, the connection to a vanished past. A grumpier, bitterer Obi-Wan.

Oldie-Han
posted by Kabanos at 7:53 AM on October 26, 2015

Netflix to stream Star Wars: The Force Awakens in Canada — and nowhere else.
posted by Kabanos at 8:33 AM on October 26, 2015

Netflix to stream Star Wars: The Force Awakens in Canada — and nowhere else.

This is what happens when we vote the Conservatives out of power!
posted by nubs at 8:36 AM on October 26, 2015 [5 favorites]

Thanks a lot Obama!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:50 AM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Everyone forgets Mon Mothma.

Naw, I remember her, and the twins at the bar (aliens per EU, but whatever), and the Echo Base officer.

But every time my daughter gets back into Minecraft, I ask her, "are there female villagers yet?" and she's like "no" and I'm like "fuck Minecraft!" and she ignores me and goes back to building monumental pixel art or whatever it is she does in Minecraft.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:00 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

But every time my daughter gets back into Minecraft, I ask her, "are there female villagers yet?" and she's like "no" and I'm like "fuck Minecraft!"

...fwiw, the official word is that there are no male villagers either...
posted by effbot at 6:33 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Gender is pretty important to most people and "Minecraft guy" doesn't read as ambiguous; it reads as male. I'd have respected him more if he'd said "Yeah, it does read as male. I never expected Minecraft to take off this way so I didn't plan to have different skins and things to let you choose your own character. The original one reads as male because I'm male, and it's a little me."
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:15 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer (LUKE SKYWALKER SPOTTED!)
posted by homunculus at 3:26 PM on October 28, 2015 [7 favorites]

Galactic History, or Galactic Folk Tale?

TO: EDITORIAL BOARD OF TRADE ROUTES, THE JOURNAL OF GALACTIC AFFAIRS

N109xxq83992.33.1.apple / Corewards 993 / Coruscant

FROM: Doctor Flox Beelthrak, Education Department, Corellia University

Djane Lel, Secretary of Historiography, Coruscant Teacher’s College



DEAR SOPHONTS—

Your Harvest issue’s cover feature (“Heroes of the Galactic Revolution: A Twenty-Year Retrospective”), however well-intentioned in its commemoration of the anniversary of our galaxy’s liberation from the Palpatine Regime, indulged in and perpetuated many damaging and historically inaccurate popular fantasies.

However widespread the folk narrative of the Skywalker and Solo families has become in the decades since liberation, we expect more from a journal of your self-professed dedication to intellectual rigor.

The Great Sophont Theory of History has been deservedly discredited for decades; our galaxy’s very size—millions of sentient species spread across billions of worlds—should be enough to discredit any notion its history might be shaped by the decisions of a few individuals. What steersman could seize the wheel of such a vessel?

posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:18 PM on October 30, 2015 [9 favorites]

I am just kind of shocked I watched a trailer for a film not coming out for 2 months and it ends with "tickets on sale" now.
posted by Theta States at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Got mine.
posted by Atreides at 7:08 AM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]

Honest Teaser - The Force Awakens
posted by homunculus at 6:48 PM on November 3, 2015 [1 favorite]

International trailer
posted by octothorpe at 6:34 AM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]

Wow, that shot of the TIEs against the sun!
Warning though, this trailer is slightly more spoilery. The original did a good job of showing amazing images but with little context about actual plot points. This one shows a little more in that respect so maybe skip it if you want.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:33 AM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]

Crazy idea inspired by the International trailer: Captain Phasma is actually Luke's daughter, and will be the real "Darth Vader-esque" character of the new series.
posted by drezdn at 7:35 AM on November 6, 2015

Ugggggh. Is there some way I can greedily consume every scrap of information about this movie that is revealed over the next month while at the same time not having anything spoiled at all? I do not have access to a neuralizer.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:44 AM on November 6, 2015 [6 favorites]

Thanks for sharing the link, octothorpe!

The TIEs against the sun is a beautiful image!

In terms of slightly spoilery stuff (stop reading - a'ight? But it doesn't reveal that much more in terms of story than the original purpose of this thread). It appears that Rey finds or is found by BB-8 and she doesn't get to introduce herself properly to Finn until they're aboard the Falcon. Also, she learned about waiting thanks to her family. In fact, BB-8, as Katey Rich points out in her piece on the trailer, is in almost every shot. We also see C-3PO for the first time in an official trailer/teaser. We saw Anthony Daniels dressed in the costume for the Comic Con making of reel that was released, but not the character.

The same voice over is there, but it has something extra, the word "Hope." YEAH, the first movie of the next trilogy is for at least Japanese viewers, touching on the return of hope. One might even call it a new hope.

Also, Chewie blows something up. Or seems to.
posted by Atreides at 8:13 AM on November 6, 2015

That International trailer is awesome. If nothing else, Abrams has the sense of visual scale and scope in those shots that the prequels never had. The landspeeder going across the landscape to reveal the downed hulk of the Star Destroyer (from the second trailer); Rey standing with the backdrop of the Star Destroyer engine; the TIE fighters against the sun; and it's just dawned on me, watching this, that all of the footage of the X-wing/TIE fighter action is in atmosphere, which allows for a completely different visual environment for the action.

In short, what I'm seeing are moments that look larger than life, that get back to that sense of mythic scope and size of the Star Wars universe that the OT mostly had, where the choice of visuals (like the opening sequence of ANH) tell you a lot about the characters and their state. Rey feels small, dwarfed, trapped; she's "waiting for family" - Han? Luke? Leia? Phasma? Kylo? Jar Jar?

At any rate, I'm kinda hoping that when Phasma takes her helmet off to reveal Gwendolyn Christie, there's some kind of Stark girls joke.
posted by nubs at 8:26 AM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]

and it's just dawned on me, watching this, that all of the footage of the X-wing/TIE fighter action is in atmosphere, which allows for a completely different visual environment for the action.

The "wing-cam" shot from the side of the X-Wing is totes Top Gun.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:23 AM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]

TIEs against the sun, for those who are avoiding spoilers in the new trailer.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:24 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yes, I think this trailer gives hints, even from just a few choice words, that might support some of the theories running around. But still nothing concrete. It's a beautiful-looking trailer.
posted by crossoverman at 3:08 PM on November 6, 2015

The TIEs against the sun is a beautiful image!

Needs more "Ride of the Valkyries."
posted by homunculus at 6:18 PM on November 6, 2015

The Ties against the sun

... are especially noteworthy as there is not a lens flare in sight.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:56 AM on November 7, 2015 [2 favorites]

Needs more "Ride of the Valkyries."

"Mars," or some other Holst tune, surely?
posted by straight at 11:58 AM on November 7, 2015

TV Spot #1
posted by crossoverman at 11:36 AM on November 8, 2015 [2 favorites]

> Needs more "Ride of the Valkyries."

And some "William Tell" overture, Lone Ranger section.
posted by jfuller at 12:14 PM on November 8, 2015

LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens trailer
posted by Fleebnork at 5:54 PM on November 8, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Lego trailer is the best.
posted by drezdn at 7:54 PM on November 8, 2015

Droid Baby
posted by Sys Rq at 9:39 AM on November 9, 2015 [1 favorite]

The SuperDuperCut of the trailers (all footage combined into a five minute trailer).
posted by nubs at 12:02 PM on November 9, 2015

Does that include the stuff from the International one?
posted by Atreides at 12:29 PM on November 9, 2015

The description says it does, and there are bits I'm pretty sure are from the Internation, like the TIE fighters against the sun.
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on November 9, 2015

The first super cut was pretty well done, thanks for giving me a reason to re-watch another cut a few times in a row, too.
posted by Atreides at 1:23 PM on November 9, 2015

Follow up...I actually enjoyed it better than the first super cut. It works better.
posted by Atreides at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2015

JJ Abrams on directing The Force Awakens

You mapped out the story with Lawrence Kasdan, who cowrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. He said recently that his own life experiences—and the span of time not working on Star Wars—readied him to work on this film. Were there moments from your life or your own work from which you drew inspiration?

Working with Larry definitely ties for first in terms of incredible experiences I’ve had with this project. We all take our experiences with us from one project to the next, but in this case, I never looked to draw from my past work. More than anything, I drew on personal experiences as cautionary tales, things that I didn’t want to do again. For example, I didn’t want to enter into making a movie where we didn’t really own our story. I feel like I’ve done that a couple of times in my career. That’s not to say I’m not proud of my work, but the fact is I remember starting to shoot Super 8 and Star Trek Into Darkness and feeling like I hadn’t really solved some fundamental story problems.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

...fwiw, the official word

Should have checked with the kids before posting that; turns out Steve was joined by Alex earlier this year: ...jolly old Steve doesn’t really represent the diversity of our playerbase. For that reason, we’re giving all players opportunity to play with an Alex skin instead. She brings thinner arms, redder hair, and a ponytail.

(which makes her look a bit like the current lead developer, if you ignore his beard)
posted by effbot at 11:43 AM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Force Awakens trailer....sweded.

THIS IS INCREDIBLE.
posted by Atreides at 10:37 AM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

holy shit
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:53 PM on November 18, 2015

The sweded hyperspace is especially good.
posted by painquale at 1:49 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's pretty great, but why is it called "Sweded"? I thought it was going to be dubbed by the Swedish Chef.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:14 PM on November 18, 2015

From a Jack Black movie.
posted by mwhybark at 4:21 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Does this mean that the Swedish Chef will not be featuring in Episode VII? Because I'm still kinda disappointed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:07 PM on November 18, 2015

The summarized recreation of popular pop-culture films using limited budgets and a camcorder. The process is called sweding. Upon completion the film has been Sweded.

Origins: In the Michel Gondry film BE KIND REWIND, the character Jerry accidentally erases the videotapes at Mos Def's rental store, and the pair remake all the movies themselves. These versions become popular with customers, who are told they take longer to arrive and cost more because they come from Sweden. Hence, the films are referred to as 'Sweded'.

posted by phearlez at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Force Awakens trailer....sweded.

Beautiful.
posted by sparkletone at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2015

I miss Sweded clips, I hope this is the start of a revival.
My favourite being The Shining (sweded)

And my god it only takes saying "Sweded" like 10 times for my brain to lose it's meaning.
posted by Theta States at 6:26 AM on November 19, 2015 [2 favorites]