The Teachings of Don Carlos
October 23, 2015 9:41 AM Subscribe
Pulling back the curtain on Carlos Castaneda, one of America’s most secretive and popular authors.
Journalist Mike Sager originally wrote this article in 1999 as a long project for Rolling Stone. When the magazine killed the story for lack of page space ─ not an uncommon practice in magazine publishing ─ Sager published it in his first collection Scary Monsters and Super Freaks. “In a world of subjective editors,” Sager wrote via email, “it’s a good lesson for all freelance writers, one that continues to give me strength as I enter the 40th year of my journey along this beloved but difficult career path.” Our thanks to Mike Sager and Thunder’s Mouth Press for allowing us to reprint the story here, which comes recommended by Longreads contributor Aaron Gilbreath.
The sweetest most cleverest literary scam in history. I've sent the long article to the kindle for good airplane reading but this just epitomized and was central to the counter culture in the 70's. (hmm was it ever referenced on That 70's Show??)
posted by sammyo at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 10:08 AM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The popularity is inexplicable to anyone who's actually read any of the books.
posted by hwestiii at 10:30 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by hwestiii at 10:30 AM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Impeccable post. The passage about Jeremy's dabbling in sorcery rings true; it's the lucid dreaming that lends a veneer of believability to Castaneda's incoherent system. Reality checks are a viable technique and if you're steeped in the books then, yeah, likely your practice is going to reflect that.
My favourite pop culture reference to the books is The Sopranos: "Who the fuck listens to prizefighters? Ali maybe, he had some wisdom."
posted by Lorin at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
My favourite pop culture reference to the books is The Sopranos: "Who the fuck listens to prizefighters? Ali maybe, he had some wisdom."
posted by Lorin at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I spent a not insignificant amount of time embedded in a group that took the teachings (among a laundry list of other batshit crazy beliefs) as gospel truth. The tenor of my subsequent psychotic episodes was definitely coloured by them. It left me with such a bad feeling about the books that I tend to buy them up from used bookstores so nobody makes the mistake of reading that garbage.
posted by Lorin at 10:37 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Lorin at 10:37 AM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
My favourite pop culture reference to the books is The Sopranos
A few weeks ago, addressing the ending of his epochal show, The Sopranos, David Chase quoted America’s bestselling shaman of the 1970’s, Carlos Castaneda
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
A few weeks ago, addressing the ending of his epochal show, The Sopranos, David Chase quoted America’s bestselling shaman of the 1970’s, Carlos Castaneda
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:42 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The sweetest most cleverest literary scam in history.
The fact that it is based upon the cynical exploitation, distortion, and trivialization of Yaqui and other Native cultures makes it not so sweet, really.
posted by jammy at 10:45 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
The fact that it is based upon the cynical exploitation, distortion, and trivialization of Yaqui and other Native cultures makes it not so sweet, really.
posted by jammy at 10:45 AM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Maybe the word "scam" should color our interpretation of the words "sweetest" and "cleverest" there. Maybe not, though! Just thinking out loud here
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:47 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
My 13-year-old self ate Castaneda up, along with Secret Life of Plants. It was wonderful to believe in magic, if only for a moment.
posted by swift at 10:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by swift at 10:48 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chase mentions Castaneda in a commentary too, if I recall. Ditto the writers on The Simpsons commentary for "El Viaje Misterioso de Nuestro Jomer," the insanity peppers episode ... like a Don Juan cover come to life. "Knowledge is a moth." Pynchon has referenced Castaneda and made at least one oblique reference to lucid dreaming being part of his process. At least, that's how I read his statement in the intro to Slow Learner about having "virtually no access to his dream life." Certainly the books were ubiquitous at the time.
posted by Lorin at 10:51 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Lorin at 10:51 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe the word "scam" should color our interpretation of the words "sweetest" and "cleverest" there.
I do not mean to call out Sammyo in particular. But I do not understand and have a lot of issues with the admiration people have for Castaneda.
For example, DeMille stating "Castaneda wasn’t a common con man, he lied to bring us the truth." Fuck that noise. He's a plastic shaman - nothing more.
A sweet clever scam is The Sting - a criminal asshole gets his comeuppance. Sweet scams punch up, not down.
posted by jammy at 11:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I do not mean to call out Sammyo in particular. But I do not understand and have a lot of issues with the admiration people have for Castaneda.
For example, DeMille stating "Castaneda wasn’t a common con man, he lied to bring us the truth." Fuck that noise. He's a plastic shaman - nothing more.
A sweet clever scam is The Sting - a criminal asshole gets his comeuppance. Sweet scams punch up, not down.
posted by jammy at 11:04 AM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I do not understand and have a lot of issues with the admiration people have for Castaneda.
posted by jammy at 2:04 PM on October 23
Agreed. Especially given the way some of the women in Castaneda's group were treated.
posted by magstheaxe at 11:29 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by jammy at 2:04 PM on October 23
Agreed. Especially given the way some of the women in Castaneda's group were treated.
posted by magstheaxe at 11:29 AM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
There was a post some time ago here about Bickels camp out near the Panamint Dunes, where the body, but not the head of Patricia Partoun (The Blue Scout,) was found. There was a discussion of John the ex con who sold weed laced with datura, and the drinking of Mateus. The suggestion was maybe Juan Matus was a combination of the two.
It was very interesting to read the above, and the old post from here. I still read Castaneda, I have read his material, all of it, many times. I am sure it is better to be on the outside, looking in, rather than at the center, of his creative milieu. I have all his books within five feet of where I sit. I place Tales of Power as my all time favorite book, I think it is Genaro's relationship with the Earth I treasure. I read everything Hemingway wrote a couple of summers ago. I just don't feel the same way about his body of work.
I don't really care what is what with his stuff, the glimpse he offers is worth everything. If anything it incited a brutal skepticism in me liberating me from the weight of the mundane.
posted by Oyéah at 11:30 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It was very interesting to read the above, and the old post from here. I still read Castaneda, I have read his material, all of it, many times. I am sure it is better to be on the outside, looking in, rather than at the center, of his creative milieu. I have all his books within five feet of where I sit. I place Tales of Power as my all time favorite book, I think it is Genaro's relationship with the Earth I treasure. I read everything Hemingway wrote a couple of summers ago. I just don't feel the same way about his body of work.
I don't really care what is what with his stuff, the glimpse he offers is worth everything. If anything it incited a brutal skepticism in me liberating me from the weight of the mundane.
posted by Oyéah at 11:30 AM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I do still have fond feelings about the stories as stories. I guess what inspires my vitriol are the parts of the teaching that romanticize emotional distance: controlled folly, erasing your personal history, making oneself unavailable. I resent how many of my personal relationships were contaminated by that way of thinking, both in myself and others. A practitioner might say, well, that was a flawed application of the teachings. Think of all the personal power I've squandered even mentioning that I am aware of them! It's the teachings themselves, in my opionion, that are flawed.
posted by Lorin at 12:21 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Lorin at 12:21 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Carlos Castaneda : hippies :: Ayn Rand : assholes.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
The popularity is inexplicable to anyone who's actually read any of the books.
Heh. As perhaps hinted at by swift upthread, you should try being a ridiculously stoned teenager when you read them. I enjoyed the experience greatly but life moved on and they vanished from my radar. Decades later I stumbled across one of them in a used book store and a sudden rush of nostalgia prompted me to buy it and re-read it. I probably got at least three pages in. I'm sure it's still round here somewhere.
posted by merlynkline at 12:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Heh. As perhaps hinted at by swift upthread, you should try being a ridiculously stoned teenager when you read them. I enjoyed the experience greatly but life moved on and they vanished from my radar. Decades later I stumbled across one of them in a used book store and a sudden rush of nostalgia prompted me to buy it and re-read it. I probably got at least three pages in. I'm sure it's still round here somewhere.
posted by merlynkline at 12:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Carlos Castaneda walks into a bar.
posted by clavdivs at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
And vanishes onto thin air.
posted by y2karl at 1:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:54 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I read this way back when it was in the collection and annoyed any number of my true believer friends when I described his works as fiction.
And don't get me going on Tom Robbins. If you ever read any of the misogynistic screeds he used to freelance to the Weekly, way back when again, you would understand.
posted by y2karl at 1:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
And don't get me going on Tom Robbins. If you ever read any of the misogynistic screeds he used to freelance to the Weekly, way back when again, you would understand.
posted by y2karl at 1:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
His teachings about spiritual enlightenment run counter to the Eastern mystics he took ideas from - that THIS world is the gateway to those other realms that lie within the subconscious, that those realms are important in so far as they tell us about the things in the world that are pieces of ourselves - not necessarily the world around us.
I want to link this to an acquaintance so bad, but I have a suspicion I would alienate them, not give them perspective.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want to link this to an acquaintance so bad, but I have a suspicion I would alienate them, not give them perspective.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
What's up with Casteneda using the Buckminster Fuller term Tensegrity for the practices?
posted by larrybob at 2:18 PM on October 23, 2015
posted by larrybob at 2:18 PM on October 23, 2015
Read a handful of his books at one time, always turned off by the warrior motif, though I recognize that this can be interpreted in various ways. Thing is, no teacher will ever be anything other than human, in the same sense that no victim can ever be anything than fallible. Jesus aint coming anytime soon, and he wouldn't be liked even if he was. We all have feet of clay. Looking beyond that fact may be a tool to sharpen discernment upon, or not.
Also, I've spent a great deal of time in the arid regions of the west. You're not always encountering scorpions and centipedes and venemous reptiles there, though it's always good to keep an eye out for them; no, it's the two-legged variety you need to look out for. The latter's motivations are often much more difficult to make sense of. But you don't have to go to the arid regions to encounter that. The others are relatively simple beasts who would just as soon avoid interacting with you for the most part.
Unless you're an unobservant or aggressive dummy, encounters with such fauna should be considered essentially accidental in nature.
In any case, my memories of reading Carlos Castaneda remain fond ones.
posted by metagnathous at 3:20 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I've spent a great deal of time in the arid regions of the west. You're not always encountering scorpions and centipedes and venemous reptiles there, though it's always good to keep an eye out for them; no, it's the two-legged variety you need to look out for. The latter's motivations are often much more difficult to make sense of. But you don't have to go to the arid regions to encounter that. The others are relatively simple beasts who would just as soon avoid interacting with you for the most part.
Unless you're an unobservant or aggressive dummy, encounters with such fauna should be considered essentially accidental in nature.
In any case, my memories of reading Carlos Castaneda remain fond ones.
posted by metagnathous at 3:20 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
My 13-year-old self ate Castaneda up, along with Secret Life of Plants.
Me too, although I was probably 23 when The Teachings of Don Juan came out. I got this nice Botany degree though, see?
I think I read The Don Juan Papers a few years later, and Reading Castaneda. It took a while, but I slowly learned that everything I loved in Castaneda's books was wrong, or a lie, or my own wishful thinking. It was a valuable education in many ways. I still appreciate those books, although I tend to view them as Magic Realism and not to be taken too seriously. He did open the door to a big chunk of the New Age publishing industry, and we'll always have that.
posted by sneebler at 3:35 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Me too, although I was probably 23 when The Teachings of Don Juan came out. I got this nice Botany degree though, see?
I think I read The Don Juan Papers a few years later, and Reading Castaneda. It took a while, but I slowly learned that everything I loved in Castaneda's books was wrong, or a lie, or my own wishful thinking. It was a valuable education in many ways. I still appreciate those books, although I tend to view them as Magic Realism and not to be taken too seriously. He did open the door to a big chunk of the New Age publishing industry, and we'll always have that.
posted by sneebler at 3:35 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ramsey Dukes has an essay,THE CHARLATAN and THE MAGUS (here in the chaos magic folder) where he argues they are automatically fused and there is almost no such thing as a magus who ain't a charlatan..
From the article: Neither Gabi nor Greg quite remembered which one of them first came up with the idea of taking the Sorcerer’s trash.
Back in the 1970's your Sartrists called this Bad Faith. But I am glad they did it!
posted by bukvich at 4:38 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the article: Neither Gabi nor Greg quite remembered which one of them first came up with the idea of taking the Sorcerer’s trash.
Back in the 1970's your Sartrists called this Bad Faith. But I am glad they did it!
posted by bukvich at 4:38 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Requisite links to the documentary "White Shamans & Plastic Medicine Men" (1996) and article Spiritual Hucksterism: The Rise of the Plastic Medicine Men.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Castaneda is not harmless, and the more he gets exposed, the better I feel. Stories have circulated in Mexican literary circles for decades about his real identity, how much of a fraud and an asshole he was, but he still haves thousands of rabid young fans defending him.
I devoured Castaneda's books when I was a very insecure teenager trying to figure out who I really was. I also read Nietzche and Herman Hesse and a ton of other stuff that ultimately led me to believe that the way to be a man, to feel confident and secure and capable, was to become a very powerful loner with no attachments to others. A mysterious stone cold warrior.
I forgot about it, and went on with my life. It was not until recently, after years of depression and months of an ever intensifying background of suicidal thoughts, that I started to realize how much of this crap I had internalized.
It really messes you up having to constantly hide any vulnerabilities, of sabotaging every human relationship as soon as it starts getting intimate in the name of self sufficiency and lack of attachments (according to Castaneda romantic feelings up to true love are temporarily weakening, and having kids will permanently drain a man of most of his power). It has taken a lot of work and introspection and expensive therapy to allow myself to be weak and vulnerable in front of people, to realize how lucky we are when we connect with someone else, to stop reflexively second guessing every one else's intentions.... Basically how to be a human with emotions. I have lost count of how many times I become aware of some of my bullshit internalized values and beliefs, and when I ask myself where I picked them up, the answer is Castaneda.
So fuck you Castaneda for all of that.
On the other hand, I did so many awesome things by myself between the ages of 17 and 23 that I would not have done if I had not convinced myself to follow The Warrior's Path. Hitchhiking all over Mexico and Central America. Walking for weeks in the desert on a diet of deer jerky, strong tobacco and fresh peyote. Hanging out with Huicholes, Mixes, Zapotecs, Lacandones and other native peoples eating magic mushrooms, salvia, morning glory seeds and several other fun plants. Climbing mountains and sleeping in caves just to hang out with the crows and the coyotes and the snakes. I did tons of terrible selfish things, but also met tons of interesting people, and I did take a few long looks through the keyhole in the doors of perception. I only wish I had allowed myself to be more vulnerable at the time, I may have had some emotional growth and made some friends.
Sorry for the rant, reading this article made me have full body flashbacks and an now I have an emotional core dump on my lap that I need to carefully look at.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 5:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
I devoured Castaneda's books when I was a very insecure teenager trying to figure out who I really was. I also read Nietzche and Herman Hesse and a ton of other stuff that ultimately led me to believe that the way to be a man, to feel confident and secure and capable, was to become a very powerful loner with no attachments to others. A mysterious stone cold warrior.
I forgot about it, and went on with my life. It was not until recently, after years of depression and months of an ever intensifying background of suicidal thoughts, that I started to realize how much of this crap I had internalized.
It really messes you up having to constantly hide any vulnerabilities, of sabotaging every human relationship as soon as it starts getting intimate in the name of self sufficiency and lack of attachments (according to Castaneda romantic feelings up to true love are temporarily weakening, and having kids will permanently drain a man of most of his power). It has taken a lot of work and introspection and expensive therapy to allow myself to be weak and vulnerable in front of people, to realize how lucky we are when we connect with someone else, to stop reflexively second guessing every one else's intentions.... Basically how to be a human with emotions. I have lost count of how many times I become aware of some of my bullshit internalized values and beliefs, and when I ask myself where I picked them up, the answer is Castaneda.
So fuck you Castaneda for all of that.
On the other hand, I did so many awesome things by myself between the ages of 17 and 23 that I would not have done if I had not convinced myself to follow The Warrior's Path. Hitchhiking all over Mexico and Central America. Walking for weeks in the desert on a diet of deer jerky, strong tobacco and fresh peyote. Hanging out with Huicholes, Mixes, Zapotecs, Lacandones and other native peoples eating magic mushrooms, salvia, morning glory seeds and several other fun plants. Climbing mountains and sleeping in caves just to hang out with the crows and the coyotes and the snakes. I did tons of terrible selfish things, but also met tons of interesting people, and I did take a few long looks through the keyhole in the doors of perception. I only wish I had allowed myself to be more vulnerable at the time, I may have had some emotional growth and made some friends.
Sorry for the rant, reading this article made me have full body flashbacks and an now I have an emotional core dump on my lap that I need to carefully look at.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 5:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
The Road of Excess: A History of Writers on Drugs by Marcus Boon is a fascinating literary overview of the backstories of various cosmic-oriented writers throughout history, and the inevitable weird mythologizing that often tends to follow their reputations.
Boon mentions that the elusive personality of Castaneda has always attracted debunkers, and adds a comment that Castaneda's fans have usually responded with a vague disinterest in confronting the literal truth of his narratives. I've read Castaneda never fully believing that what he described was literally real, it's just a fictional (or separate) alternative to reality.
posted by ovvl at 7:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Boon mentions that the elusive personality of Castaneda has always attracted debunkers, and adds a comment that Castaneda's fans have usually responded with a vague disinterest in confronting the literal truth of his narratives. I've read Castaneda never fully believing that what he described was literally real, it's just a fictional (or separate) alternative to reality.
posted by ovvl at 7:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
That Jim Morrison was a big fan is no surprise.
posted by Bob Regular at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bob Regular at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
"“Mongo just pawn in chess game of life,” he liked to say about himself, quoting his favorite line from Blazing Saddles."
Now I'm wondering whether the reporting was off or whether he was just slightly misquoting the movie the whole time.
posted by Earthtopus at 7:31 PM on October 23, 2015
Now I'm wondering whether the reporting was off or whether he was just slightly misquoting the movie the whole time.
posted by Earthtopus at 7:31 PM on October 23, 2015
"It really messes you up having to constantly hide any vulnerabilities, of sabotaging every human relationship as soon as it starts getting intimate in the name of self sufficiency and lack of attachments (according to Castaneda romantic feelings up to true love are temporarily weakening, and having kids will permanently drain a man of most of his power). It has taken a lot of work and introspection and expensive therapy to allow myself to be weak and vulnerable in front of people, to realize how lucky we are when we connect with someone else, to stop reflexively second guessing every one else's intentions.... Basically how to be a human with emotions. I have lost count of how many times I become aware of some of my bullshit internalized values and beliefs, and when I ask myself where I picked them up, the answer is Castaneda."
Carlos Casteneda -- the original TRP man.
posted by jfwlucy at 7:48 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Carlos Casteneda -- the original TRP man.
posted by jfwlucy at 7:48 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fact that it is based upon the cynical exploitation, distortion, and trivialization of Yaqui and other Native cultures makes it not so sweet, really.
Exactly. Dude was on the cover of Time magazine and he was treated as a real anthropologist who met an authentic sorcerer. I found the stuff in the nonfiction section of the bookstore and as a teenager gobbling all of his books up (Agree with the guy who said 'Tales of Power' was highly influential.), I radically changed my idea of the whole planet.
It was nothing but a bunch of shit, and Castaneda was an asshole and fuck that guy. I hate that particular type of liar with verve. I'd shit on his grave if it was nearby.
posted by uraniumwilly at 8:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Exactly. Dude was on the cover of Time magazine and he was treated as a real anthropologist who met an authentic sorcerer. I found the stuff in the nonfiction section of the bookstore and as a teenager gobbling all of his books up (Agree with the guy who said 'Tales of Power' was highly influential.), I radically changed my idea of the whole planet.
It was nothing but a bunch of shit, and Castaneda was an asshole and fuck that guy. I hate that particular type of liar with verve. I'd shit on his grave if it was nearby.
posted by uraniumwilly at 8:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is going to sound trivial of me, but maybe it's not trivial at all..
Casteñeda referred to Native American people who wore non - Native clothing as being dressed 'impeccably' so often. It really began to bother me.
Any Native American woman who wore any Native form of dress was certainly NOT 'impeccably dressed'. This really applied to men as well, but seriously, women in regional clothes were not respected or liked by Casteñeda.
I even, in discussing him with others said, 'Something is very phony about this man! I think he might be a racist.'
If Native ways aren't good enough, what else can you call it?
My family lived in Mexico for a bit over two years when I was little. The lady who did our housework was a mid-wife and bruja. She is who started the interest I have in natural cures.
Despite the fact our housekeeper was sought after as a mid-wife and feared as a bruja, I don't think Casteñeda would EVER have described her as impeccably dressed. She knew cures. It's possible she saved my parents lives when they nearly died of hepatitis. She made all of us take the remedies her Chichimeca people used. She spoke Chichimeca and Spanish. She knew things.
I read all of Casteñeda's books and liked him less and less as I went along.
I do not feel Casteñeda respected Yaqui culture. He made a lot of money from it though.
A different thread we had discussed cultural appropriation. I think Casteñeda indulged in it.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Casteñeda referred to Native American people who wore non - Native clothing as being dressed 'impeccably' so often. It really began to bother me.
Any Native American woman who wore any Native form of dress was certainly NOT 'impeccably dressed'. This really applied to men as well, but seriously, women in regional clothes were not respected or liked by Casteñeda.
I even, in discussing him with others said, 'Something is very phony about this man! I think he might be a racist.'
If Native ways aren't good enough, what else can you call it?
My family lived in Mexico for a bit over two years when I was little. The lady who did our housework was a mid-wife and bruja. She is who started the interest I have in natural cures.
Despite the fact our housekeeper was sought after as a mid-wife and feared as a bruja, I don't think Casteñeda would EVER have described her as impeccably dressed. She knew cures. It's possible she saved my parents lives when they nearly died of hepatitis. She made all of us take the remedies her Chichimeca people used. She spoke Chichimeca and Spanish. She knew things.
I read all of Casteñeda's books and liked him less and less as I went along.
I do not feel Casteñeda respected Yaqui culture. He made a lot of money from it though.
A different thread we had discussed cultural appropriation. I think Casteñeda indulged in it.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
he was treated as a real anthropologist
Dude got a real PhD from the University of California. You don't think he was a real anthropologist? Could the UC have disciplined him for fraud and voided the diploma if they had the integrity to do so? Carlos could have afforded a legal dream team if they tried and that might have been the most entertaining court case ever.
posted by bukvich at 9:03 PM on October 23, 2015
Dude got a real PhD from the University of California. You don't think he was a real anthropologist? Could the UC have disciplined him for fraud and voided the diploma if they had the integrity to do so? Carlos could have afforded a legal dream team if they tried and that might have been the most entertaining court case ever.
posted by bukvich at 9:03 PM on October 23, 2015
You don't think he was a real anthropologist?
from the article, right after he supposedly meets his magical informant at a bus station:
"His professor had promised an A grade to any student who found an actual Indian informant for a term paper."
posted by Earthtopus at 9:44 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
from the article, right after he supposedly meets his magical informant at a bus station:
"His professor had promised an A grade to any student who found an actual Indian informant for a term paper."
posted by Earthtopus at 9:44 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
You don't think he was a real anthropologist?
Once he got busted with that big-assed lie, he should have been dis-anthro-barred. Fuck him.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Once he got busted with that big-assed lie, he should have been dis-anthro-barred. Fuck him.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read Castaneda a quarter century and change ago, back when I was in high school. I remember getting to the part where they're smoking shrooms, and thinking, "They're smoking shrooms. Nobody smokes shrooms! This guy's fulla shit!" Entertaining shit, though - I read everything he had out at that point. I always dig Magical Wizard Adventure Stories. But come on, they're Magical Wizard Adventure Stories - it really came as a surprise to me later to learn Castaneda had a whole little cult thing revolving around these books!
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 10:29 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 10:29 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
My faith in Bob Dobbs is unshaken.
posted by 0rison at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by 0rison at 12:49 AM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
"Castaneda wasn’t a common con man, he lied to bring us the truth. His stories are packed with truth, though they are not true stories, which he said they are…. "
... and by truth, I mean lies that I would like to believe.
“To ask me to verify my life by giving you my statistics is like using science to validate sorcery,” he said. “It robs the world of its magic.”
Translation - "I am a pathological liar who is incapable of recognizing that the real world is more magical and amazing than anything which comes out of my imagination."
Alternate translation - "I am sufficiently self-deluded that I think whatever I imagine that I would like to be true must necessarily be as real as the world around me."
(Some of the most effective con artists seem to be those who convince themselves of their nonsense first.)
In my 20s I knew some folks in my martial arts circles who went off to study with self-proclaimed Native American warrior mystics who seemed to draw much of their shtick from Castaneda's books. (There were actually two such "teachers" that I met, each with his own mini-cult.) Stories that came back later confirmed that the groups leaders displayed the same exploitive tendencies and banal hypocrisy that are typical in such cases.
posted by tdismukes at 6:33 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
... and by truth, I mean lies that I would like to believe.
“To ask me to verify my life by giving you my statistics is like using science to validate sorcery,” he said. “It robs the world of its magic.”
Translation - "I am a pathological liar who is incapable of recognizing that the real world is more magical and amazing than anything which comes out of my imagination."
Alternate translation - "I am sufficiently self-deluded that I think whatever I imagine that I would like to be true must necessarily be as real as the world around me."
(Some of the most effective con artists seem to be those who convince themselves of their nonsense first.)
In my 20s I knew some folks in my martial arts circles who went off to study with self-proclaimed Native American warrior mystics who seemed to draw much of their shtick from Castaneda's books. (There were actually two such "teachers" that I met, each with his own mini-cult.) Stories that came back later confirmed that the groups leaders displayed the same exploitive tendencies and banal hypocrisy that are typical in such cases.
posted by tdismukes at 6:33 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The effect of this caricaturing is two-fold: first, as De Mille and Fikes bemoan, erroneous ethnographic research is quite difficult to remove from the anthropological record once canonized. By accepting such questionable documents as authenticated knowledge, the truth about indigenous peoples becomes diluted with misinformation and (perhaps more lamentable) the halls of academia are tarnished with the elevation of charlatans to pedestals of high esteem. Indeed, as he remarks in his Introduction, Fikes heard nothing but praise for Castanedas first four books in his graduate studies at the University of Michigan in 1975, despite their disputed validity.
Shamans and Charlatans: Assessing Castaneda's Legacy, Stephen C. Thomas, Reality Sandwich
posted by bukvich at 8:07 AM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Shamans and Charlatans: Assessing Castaneda's Legacy, Stephen C. Thomas, Reality Sandwich
posted by bukvich at 8:07 AM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Dude got a real PhD from the University of California. You don't think he was a real anthropologist?
If I'm reading the links correctly, he got the PhD _after_ writing several supposedly non-fiction books published by the University, that sold a lot and are now widely disputed / considered as fiction and anyway not corroborated by anything published by anybody else. That's a pretty unusual way of getting a PhD.
And then there's this from the Salon article:
If I'm reading the links correctly, he got the PhD _after_ writing several supposedly non-fiction books published by the University, that sold a lot and are now widely disputed / considered as fiction and anyway not corroborated by anything published by anybody else. That's a pretty unusual way of getting a PhD.
And then there's this from the Salon article:
In 1972, anthropologist Paul Riesman reviewed Castaneda’s first three books in the New York Times Book Review, writing that “Castaneda makes it clear that the teachings of don Juan do tell us something of how the world really is.” Riesman’s article ran in place of a review the Times had initially commissioned from Weston La Barre, one of the foremost authorities on Native American peyote ceremonies. In his unpublished article, La Barre denounced Castaneda’s writing as “pseudo-profound deeply vulgar pseudo-ethnography.”posted by Dr Dracator at 8:53 AM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Paul Riesman reviewed Castaneda’s first three books in the New York Times Book Review, writing that “Castaneda makes it clear that the teachings of don Juan do tell us something of how the world really is.”
It was a different time and things cosmic floated around a lot more. Referring to Castaneda's work, a highly influential William Burroughs once asked an interviewer, "Have you read the books?."
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:03 AM on October 24, 2015
It was a different time and things cosmic floated around a lot more. Referring to Castaneda's work, a highly influential William Burroughs once asked an interviewer, "Have you read the books?."
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:03 AM on October 24, 2015
That's a pretty unusual way of getting a PhD.
It would be great if somebody could hike over to the UCLA Anthropology library and see if there is a copy of his dissertation listing the faculty on his committee on the title page like on every PhD thesis I have ever examined. Google does not fetch anything for Castandeda thesis defense. Am I the only person who cares if his thesis accreditation procedure was standard routine for its day or if he got special consideration at the time he was selling a lot of books for the UC Press?
For all we know his advisors thought he was the most brilliant student they ever had and any unusual features were a very small matter to them. The claims that he never showed anybody his field notes could well be an exaggeration. He never showed the critics his field notes but that may not mean anything. Apparently the people most like those in his books had to put up with legions of gawkers and for all we know there was a real Don Juan who was pseudonymized to forestall possible subsequent gawk attack.
Didn't we have a long hailstorm of a thread in the last year where some professor defended errors in their publication explicitly with names changed to protect the innocent gambit?
posted by bukvich at 10:01 AM on October 24, 2015
It would be great if somebody could hike over to the UCLA Anthropology library and see if there is a copy of his dissertation listing the faculty on his committee on the title page like on every PhD thesis I have ever examined. Google does not fetch anything for Castandeda thesis defense. Am I the only person who cares if his thesis accreditation procedure was standard routine for its day or if he got special consideration at the time he was selling a lot of books for the UC Press?
For all we know his advisors thought he was the most brilliant student they ever had and any unusual features were a very small matter to them. The claims that he never showed anybody his field notes could well be an exaggeration. He never showed the critics his field notes but that may not mean anything. Apparently the people most like those in his books had to put up with legions of gawkers and for all we know there was a real Don Juan who was pseudonymized to forestall possible subsequent gawk attack.
Didn't we have a long hailstorm of a thread in the last year where some professor defended errors in their publication explicitly with names changed to protect the innocent gambit?
posted by bukvich at 10:01 AM on October 24, 2015
and having kids will permanently drain a man of most of his power
I have not read your work mr Castaneda, but WTF is up with that?? If you think raising children isn't among the most powerful things a man can do, either you're doing it wrong or you misunderstand something basic about power. Though I suppose there's a difference between having them and raising them…
posted by maniabug at 10:12 AM on October 24, 2015
I have not read your work mr Castaneda, but WTF is up with that?? If you think raising children isn't among the most powerful things a man can do, either you're doing it wrong or you misunderstand something basic about power. Though I suppose there's a difference between having them and raising them…
posted by maniabug at 10:12 AM on October 24, 2015
Am I the only person who cares if his thesis accreditation procedure was standard routine for its day or if he got special consideration at the time he was selling a lot of books for the UC Press?
At least me (but assumedly at least or two other people in this thread) are of the opinion that Occam's razor overwhelmingly favors the latter explanation, even if it turns out its accreditation turns out to have at least ostensibly followed some sort of academic protocol.
posted by Earthtopus at 12:24 PM on October 24, 2015
At least me (but assumedly at least or two other people in this thread) are of the opinion that Occam's razor overwhelmingly favors the latter explanation, even if it turns out its accreditation turns out to have at least ostensibly followed some sort of academic protocol.
posted by Earthtopus at 12:24 PM on October 24, 2015
It would be great if somebody could hike over to the UCLA Anthropology library and see if there is a copy of his dissertation listing the faculty on his committee on the title page like on every PhD thesis I have ever examined. Google does not fetch anything for Castandeda thesis defense. Am I the only person who cares if his thesis accreditation procedure was standard routine for its day or if he got special consideration at the time he was selling a lot of books for the UC Press?
If memory serves, the UCLA grad school research libraries are not open to the public. The oldest things that shows up in the standard public catalog is The Teachings of Don Juan.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:25 PM on October 24, 2015
If memory serves, the UCLA grad school research libraries are not open to the public. The oldest things that shows up in the standard public catalog is The Teachings of Don Juan.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:25 PM on October 24, 2015
Apparently, Journey to Ixtlan was accepted as his PhD thesis (or in lieu of one; see ¶21 of the linked article).
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:31 PM on October 24, 2015
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:31 PM on October 24, 2015
Also the idea that because you were awarded a PhD in Anthropology you are not full of shit or are not appropriating others' culture is laughable. See also Michael Harner, whose PhD is from Cal, and who did real fieldwork before becoming a neoshamanic buffoon.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:37 PM on October 24, 2015
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:37 PM on October 24, 2015
I have heard of legit-seeming non-standard thesis arrangements, like how Cambridge gave Wittgenstein a D. Phil for the Tractatus. But this seems shabbier.
I used to play bass for the Neoshamanic Buffoons
posted by thelonius at 1:02 PM on October 24, 2015
I used to play bass for the Neoshamanic Buffoons
posted by thelonius at 1:02 PM on October 24, 2015
"“But even if in such cases I can’t be mistaken, isn’t it possible that I am drugged?” If I am and if the drug has taken away my consciousness, then I am not now really talking and thinking. I cannot seriously suppose that I am at this moment dreaming. Someone who, dreaming, says “I am dreaming”, even if he speaks audibly in doing so, is no more right than if he said in his dream “it is raining”, while it was in fact raining. Even if his dream were actually connected with the noise of the rain."
-Wittgenstein, "On Certainty"
posted by clavdivs at 1:51 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
-Wittgenstein, "On Certainty"
posted by clavdivs at 1:51 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Previous brouhaha thread about do's and don'ts in pseudonymizing research subjects:
“young men’s compromised legal status transforms the basic institutions"
(Assistant) Professor Alice Goffman is the academic whose work is being scrutinized there.
posted by bukvich at 3:01 PM on October 24, 2015
“young men’s compromised legal status transforms the basic institutions"
(Assistant) Professor Alice Goffman is the academic whose work is being scrutinized there.
posted by bukvich at 3:01 PM on October 24, 2015
Having a child made a hole in the luminous egg, whether male or female. The shaman's path was sold as essentially solitary with exception of the sorcerer's party, or students. It wasn't sold as a standard family affair.
There is sort of a jilted suitor feeling about all this. I feel I got some great lessons out of his books. Whether he studied with Yogi Baijan (his students love to proclaim this,) or appropriated shamanistic teachings, his translation of the material was great reading and some great lesson planning. In myself it reminds me of the first time I saw Peter Pan as a kid. We used clothes pins and put on towels as capes, and jumped off the couches for some time, trying to fly. There was no harm in it and I didn't hate Mary Martin afterward because I couldn't fly. I didn't go check the credentials of the playright.
Being a seductive asshole seems to still be on par for some star graduate professors. Who didn't want to buy in at UCLA? I remember "publish or perish." He published with a rare amount of skill. Dead some years, he is still the topic of discussion. You can bet DARPA thought long and hard about his energy body instructions.
Sweet dreams!
posted by Oyéah at 3:11 PM on October 24, 2015
There is sort of a jilted suitor feeling about all this. I feel I got some great lessons out of his books. Whether he studied with Yogi Baijan (his students love to proclaim this,) or appropriated shamanistic teachings, his translation of the material was great reading and some great lesson planning. In myself it reminds me of the first time I saw Peter Pan as a kid. We used clothes pins and put on towels as capes, and jumped off the couches for some time, trying to fly. There was no harm in it and I didn't hate Mary Martin afterward because I couldn't fly. I didn't go check the credentials of the playright.
Being a seductive asshole seems to still be on par for some star graduate professors. Who didn't want to buy in at UCLA? I remember "publish or perish." He published with a rare amount of skill. Dead some years, he is still the topic of discussion. You can bet DARPA thought long and hard about his energy body instructions.
Sweet dreams!
posted by Oyéah at 3:11 PM on October 24, 2015
Is that a real Anthropologist, or is that a Sears Anthropologist?
posted by Oyéah at 3:13 PM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 3:13 PM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
His wikipedia page is a real treat. It's heavily guarded by True Believers, and not a word of doubt makes it in for long.
posted by Fnarf at 6:28 PM on October 24, 2015
posted by Fnarf at 6:28 PM on October 24, 2015
The only good thing to come out of Castaneda's cultural footprint was the sublime Hypnotized, by the pre-Stevie Nicks Fleetwood Mac. That heavenly guitar sound alone is worth all his books and more.
posted by jokeefe at 8:17 PM on October 24, 2015
posted by jokeefe at 8:17 PM on October 24, 2015
Carlos Castaneda wrote "Sorcery: A Description of the World" in 1973, as thesis/dissertation in partial fulfillment of the degree. "At the request of the author, this graduate work is not available to view or purchase" so I can't verify further.
You can, however, read the full dissertation via UCLA Libraries but it's checked out right now.
UCLA's graduate research library, YRL, is very much open to the public. You're not finding Castaneda's diss in the OPAC because you're searching under the wrong title. Castaneda was undoubtedly an awful human being but he did write a dissertation.
Librarians: it's like we do this shit for a living.
posted by librarylis at 10:38 AM on October 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
You can, however, read the full dissertation via UCLA Libraries but it's checked out right now.
UCLA's graduate research library, YRL, is very much open to the public. You're not finding Castaneda's diss in the OPAC because you're searching under the wrong title. Castaneda was undoubtedly an awful human being but he did write a dissertation.
Librarians: it's like we do this shit for a living.
posted by librarylis at 10:38 AM on October 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
The people condemning Castaneda don't have all their cause-effect arrows oriented as certainly as they believe. His first books were loved by a huge audience. He did not become ludicrous until after he started giving seminars to southern california new agers and began morphing his material towards what they were eager to hear. It was a social madness, not one guy ripping off a bunch of suckers.
posted by bukvich at 5:41 AM on October 26, 2015
posted by bukvich at 5:41 AM on October 26, 2015
I was heavily into Castaneda just before the internet arrived and I'm happy for it. As a friend of mine once said: "it doesn't really matter if his stories are true or false".
Modern people seem obsessed with facts and all too eager to dismiss any wisdom that can be found in his books. They certainly helped me during a very difficult but ultimately rewarding time in my life by giving me very clear "instructions" to hold onto to. For me it was the most down to earth, simple guide for handling what life threw at me at the time.
I do think he sold out at some point. Maybe his entourage had something to do with that (as is hinted at in the article). He probably should have just left it with his first book. Everything of real value can be found in there. Though having said that, "Journey to Ixtlan" is probably his finest work and captures the sentiment of wanting to return to "normality"(whatever that might be) very well.
posted by Kosmob0t at 8:33 AM on October 26, 2015
Modern people seem obsessed with facts and all too eager to dismiss any wisdom that can be found in his books. They certainly helped me during a very difficult but ultimately rewarding time in my life by giving me very clear "instructions" to hold onto to. For me it was the most down to earth, simple guide for handling what life threw at me at the time.
I do think he sold out at some point. Maybe his entourage had something to do with that (as is hinted at in the article). He probably should have just left it with his first book. Everything of real value can be found in there. Though having said that, "Journey to Ixtlan" is probably his finest work and captures the sentiment of wanting to return to "normality"(whatever that might be) very well.
posted by Kosmob0t at 8:33 AM on October 26, 2015
The TRP comment just reminded me of the later books, where it is explained that most things have a feminine energy, making femininity completely unremarkable. Masculine energy on the other hand is very rare, and thus highly desirable.
If one happens to be a man, one is very special and unique, and one most protect one's masculine energy at all costs from all the non masculine energies trying to steal it.
How to replenish and protect our precious bodily fluids.
One possitive effect of Castaneda's books is that as late as the late 90s there were people making a good living in some of the poorest parts of Mexico thanks to him.
For example in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit. Castaneda made the point that the Ixtlan he was talking about was not a real place, but people kept showing up in Ixtlan del Rio.
Some locals would take tourists to El Toril to look at the Toltec ruins, giving the INAH approved and historical accurate commentrary. If you looked the type, they would offer the 'true' Castanedian explanation, and hint that they could get you access to an ancient shaman keeper of the Toltec tradition for the right price. I met a few of the 'shamans' when I was spore hunting in the region. Some of the funniest scam artists I've ever know.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
If one happens to be a man, one is very special and unique, and one most protect one's masculine energy at all costs from all the non masculine energies trying to steal it.
How to replenish and protect our precious bodily fluids.
One possitive effect of Castaneda's books is that as late as the late 90s there were people making a good living in some of the poorest parts of Mexico thanks to him.
For example in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit. Castaneda made the point that the Ixtlan he was talking about was not a real place, but people kept showing up in Ixtlan del Rio.
Some locals would take tourists to El Toril to look at the Toltec ruins, giving the INAH approved and historical accurate commentrary. If you looked the type, they would offer the 'true' Castanedian explanation, and hint that they could get you access to an ancient shaman keeper of the Toltec tradition for the right price. I met a few of the 'shamans' when I was spore hunting in the region. Some of the funniest scam artists I've ever know.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 1:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
was heavily into Castaneda just before the internet arrived and I'm happy for it. As a friend of mine once said: "it doesn't really matter if his stories are true or false".
Modern people seem obsessed with facts and all too eager to dismiss any wisdom that can be found in his books.
I don't think that this kind of relativism defense is available to Castenada, who seems to be giving an account of how the spiritual world actually is: perception occurs via a luminous egg behind you, having children decreases your power, and so on. I mean, you could always say, I don't really care if he gets it right, if this is the way that the spirit world works: I find his books to be meaningful and inspirational. OK, fine, it works for you. But it's dishonest in a way that I wont abide to acquire huge cultural authority, on the basis of being a seer who reports from his own visions the finding that reality is very different from ordinary experience, and then later say, hey, it doesn't matter if I just made up those experiences.
posted by thelonius at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Modern people seem obsessed with facts and all too eager to dismiss any wisdom that can be found in his books.
I don't think that this kind of relativism defense is available to Castenada, who seems to be giving an account of how the spiritual world actually is: perception occurs via a luminous egg behind you, having children decreases your power, and so on. I mean, you could always say, I don't really care if he gets it right, if this is the way that the spirit world works: I find his books to be meaningful and inspirational. OK, fine, it works for you. But it's dishonest in a way that I wont abide to acquire huge cultural authority, on the basis of being a seer who reports from his own visions the finding that reality is very different from ordinary experience, and then later say, hey, it doesn't matter if I just made up those experiences.
posted by thelonius at 4:04 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by Oyéah at 10:06 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]