Sexual assault case at Stanford reversed
November 5, 2015 4:40 AM Subscribe
In February, Joe Lonsdale was banned from the Stanford campus for sexual misconduct and sued by Ellie Clougherty and her family. Now, Stanford has lifted the ban and the civil suit has been settled.
Emily Bazelon, author of the New York Times article which brought an exchange of emails between Lonsdale and Clougherty to the public's attention, discusses her conclusions from the new developments:
In The Washington Post, Zerlina Maxwell argued: “We should believe, as a matter of default, what an accuser says. Ultimately, the costs of wrongly disbelieving a survivor far outweigh the costs of calling someone a rapist.”
As Margaret Talbot pointed out in The New Yorker at the time: “That’s a position that makes moral and emotional sense for advocates and friends of the victim, whose primary role is to comfort and support. But it’s not a position that makes sense for journalists, whose job is to find out what actually happened.” It’s true that women don’t make a lot of false rape accusations to the police. That’s rare. But rare is not the same as never. Then there are the cases that fall into a gray area, because of uncertainty over the shifting definition of consent, especially on college campuses, or over whether the person who felt violated made that clear to the other person at the time.
Emily Bazelon, author of the New York Times article which brought an exchange of emails between Lonsdale and Clougherty to the public's attention, discusses her conclusions from the new developments:
In The Washington Post, Zerlina Maxwell argued: “We should believe, as a matter of default, what an accuser says. Ultimately, the costs of wrongly disbelieving a survivor far outweigh the costs of calling someone a rapist.”
As Margaret Talbot pointed out in The New Yorker at the time: “That’s a position that makes moral and emotional sense for advocates and friends of the victim, whose primary role is to comfort and support. But it’s not a position that makes sense for journalists, whose job is to find out what actually happened.” It’s true that women don’t make a lot of false rape accusations to the police. That’s rare. But rare is not the same as never. Then there are the cases that fall into a gray area, because of uncertainty over the shifting definition of consent, especially on college campuses, or over whether the person who felt violated made that clear to the other person at the time.
This post was deleted for the following reason: We've had some fraught discussions about (accusations of) sexual assault recently with Mefites expressing a sense of exhaustion with the topic. That said, to be clear there is no wholesale ban of any sort on posting about this. But taking into account community sentiment and the mixed reception this is getting I'm inclined to push back a bit on posts of an "update on a specific case/incident" type, I hope you understand. -- goodnewsfortheinsane
Then there are the cases that fall into a gray area, because of uncertainty over the shifting definition of consent,
The definition of consent has been entirely constant. Did they say yes and have all their faculties? Then you're good. This isn't exactly rocket science. It isn't really one of those grey area things.
posted by Talez at 5:00 AM on November 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
The definition of consent has been entirely constant. Did they say yes and have all their faculties? Then you're good. This isn't exactly rocket science. It isn't really one of those grey area things.
posted by Talez at 5:00 AM on November 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Did they say yes and have all their faculties? Then you're good.
Not at all the case, because this completely dismisses the idea that coercion and fear factor into someone's decisions. Doesn't seem to be the case here, but consent is not "did they say yes and have all their faculties."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:12 AM on November 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Not at all the case, because this completely dismisses the idea that coercion and fear factor into someone's decisions. Doesn't seem to be the case here, but consent is not "did they say yes and have all their faculties."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:12 AM on November 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
The definition of consent has been entirely constant. Did they say yes and have all their faculties?
Intent is can be hard to judge, especially in young folks who don't always know what they want and have little basis for understanding the choices they're forced into.
This is why it's kinda gross for an adult to date someone who isn't mature enough to fully make those choices without some consideration. It's also why I think the enthusiastic consent concept is a decent idea for the college age group.
posted by bonehead at 5:12 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Intent is can be hard to judge, especially in young folks who don't always know what they want and have little basis for understanding the choices they're forced into.
This is why it's kinda gross for an adult to date someone who isn't mature enough to fully make those choices without some consideration. It's also why I think the enthusiastic consent concept is a decent idea for the college age group.
posted by bonehead at 5:12 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Men have been raised to be too timid to just ask for consent in advance. It is really absurd that our culture has covered this over by suggesting that it is somehow not romantic to ask. Instead we claim that what women want is not to be asked if they way to have sex, but instead would prefer that the man in their life just initiate non-verbally and make her opt out.
posted by humanfont at 5:13 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 5:13 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe read up on "personal autonomy of choice," subsection "adult."
Maybe you should read up on the concept of power differentials? It may be perfectly legal for teachers and of-age students, or supervisors and their employees, or any of a number of other relationships, but the fact that one has power over the other makes it much less cut-and-dried.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:28 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe you should read up on the concept of power differentials? It may be perfectly legal for teachers and of-age students, or supervisors and their employees, or any of a number of other relationships, but the fact that one has power over the other makes it much less cut-and-dried.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:28 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Instead we claim that what women want is not to be asked if they way to have sex, but instead would prefer that the man in their life just initiate non-verbally and make her opt out.
This is sadly true in many situations and leads to a lot of bad outcomes.
It’s a bad idea for mentors to date students. But if they’re both of age, it’s not gross.
I disagree. It's gross more often than not, even if it isn't illegal or even against university rules (which in this case it very much was). And it's stupid, because in most cases it is easy to simply stop the professional/mentor relationship before beginning a relationship -- there has been a big element of "these dumb rules don't apply to me" arrogance in the people I've known who get into those relationships.
The tension the author describes between activist and journalist approaches to the issue is really interesting, and I expect we will see more cases that push on that distinction over the coming few years.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:35 AM on November 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is sadly true in many situations and leads to a lot of bad outcomes.
It’s a bad idea for mentors to date students. But if they’re both of age, it’s not gross.
I disagree. It's gross more often than not, even if it isn't illegal or even against university rules (which in this case it very much was). And it's stupid, because in most cases it is easy to simply stop the professional/mentor relationship before beginning a relationship -- there has been a big element of "these dumb rules don't apply to me" arrogance in the people I've known who get into those relationships.
The tension the author describes between activist and journalist approaches to the issue is really interesting, and I expect we will see more cases that push on that distinction over the coming few years.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:35 AM on November 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Isn't this the same author who wrote a sympathetic/defensive piece about the guy in the Columbia rape case? What a weird niche to find yourself in as an author.
posted by leesh at 5:41 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by leesh at 5:41 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am not entirely sure what signficant information this adds to the extremely complex conversation we had about this months ago, at least not enough to warrant the credence it gives to the prevalent "women lie about rape" narrative.
posted by howfar at 5:45 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by howfar at 5:45 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Isn't this the same author who wrote a sympathetic/defensive piece about the guy in the Columbia rape case?
Apparently so, but she is a writer and the Truman Capote Fellow at Yale Law School. Is she obligated to mix up her beat to avoid . . . I don't know what? She's also written about a case at St. Paul's prep school and 260 or so other articles on various legal topics so this feels more like confirmation bias than an agenda on the author's part.
posted by yerfatma at 5:45 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Apparently so, but she is a writer and the Truman Capote Fellow at Yale Law School. Is she obligated to mix up her beat to avoid . . . I don't know what? She's also written about a case at St. Paul's prep school and 260 or so other articles on various legal topics so this feels more like confirmation bias than an agenda on the author's part.
posted by yerfatma at 5:45 AM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Disregarding the merits and particulars of this particular case, I get a bit itchy about the way in which these false rape/sexual harassment cases get arguably so much more media attention than the reality merits. Perhaps there is a man bites dog value in talking about such rare cases, but it seems to somewhat obnoxious to spent this much attention to them in a climate where rape/sexual harassment is still underreported and underprosecuted.
posted by MartinWisse at 5:46 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 5:46 AM on November 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
« Older a mail-order house in Schenectady | Four Months Hand-Cutting A Paper Microbe Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
This is a broad statement that I don't agree with, and a black-and-white world view that I struggle to understand.
posted by muddgirl at 4:44 AM on November 5, 2015