Why some Christians are mad about Starbucks's 2015 red cup
November 10, 2015 4:16 PM Subscribe

"Americans fighting over what is printed on a coffee cup designed by a billion-dollar company to promote conformity sounds like cold German satire: While the world rages on and problems like starvation, a massive refugee crisis, and homelessness remain unfixed, people in America — including an American presidential candidate — are arguing over a red beverage container." Starbucks’s red cup controversy, explained (Alex Abad-Santos, Vox)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome (233 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite

via Todd VanDerWerff
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 4:18 PM on November 10, 2015

Jesus take the wheel.
posted by GuyZero at 4:21 PM on November 10, 2015 [15 favorites]

Just wait until they learn that the plain red cup symbolizes the blood of the bull slain by Mithras, and there will be 7 more initiatory cup designs planned for the coming year.....
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:23 PM on November 10, 2015 [102 favorites]

The vermilion hue of Starbucks' Christmas blend packaging reminds of the Blood of the Lamb... which would make Starbucks a true scapegoat of the ongoing War Against Christmas.

In all seriousness, I think the fact that Howard Schultz is Jewish may have something to do with the vitriol being expressed on social media.
posted by Nevin at 4:24 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

But there are just as many people who hate-share his videos. If you search for "MerryChristmasStarbucks" (one of the primary hashtags for the red cup "controversy"), you'll find myriad posts by self-identified Christians about how dumb the protest is.

I'm kind of meh about this one. The Christians I know are too, and I'm wondering if it's not getting way too much coverage. As a liberal atheist I hate it when my causes are defined by their fringes, and it doesn't seem cool to do that to Christians either.
posted by bunderful at 4:24 PM on November 10, 2015 [43 favorites]

These are the same people who rant about political correctness run amok and how liberals are always offended by everything.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:24 PM on November 10, 2015 [105 favorites]

CAUTION: Reading too much about this may actually cause you to die of dumb.
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on November 10, 2015 [121 favorites]

When Donald Trump is crowned king, he'll force everyone to say Merry Christmas to you. Then he'll change the name of Christmas to Trumpmas, and everyone will have to say it in greeting 366 days a year. Did I mention that years will be 366 days long every year now? Leap years are for losers!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [29 favorites]

From all I've seen, this is getting way more coverage than it deserves. I'm seeing reports of Christians wondering why in the world any of their fellow believers are even thinking about this.

I'm fine with however they design the cups, as long as they keep filling 'em with Christmas Blend.
posted by lhauser at 4:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [15 favorites]

It's inaccurate to wish anyone Merry Christmas in November. It's currently Advent. Remind your neighbors of the sanctity of pregnancy out of wedlock and/or proclaim that the world will end in blood and fire.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [40 favorites]

I want to start the war on Christmas just to show them what a war looks like.
posted by eriko at 4:30 PM on November 10, 2015 [51 favorites]

maybe they can change that mermaid thing on their logo to the Picard facepalm for next year
posted by thelonius at 4:31 PM on November 10, 2015 [18 favorites]

FRUITCAKE GRENADE!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Not sure who pisses me off more, the assholes who are "boycotting" Starbucks because of a fucking snowflake on a cup, or the media that shat this non-story into every news feed I have.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 4:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [46 favorites]

The only War on Christmas I am interested in fighting is trying to ensure no one even mentions it until Thanksgiving is done. Sadly it's a losing battle.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [79 favorites]

I hate giving these idiots any screen time here....
posted by HuronBob at 4:34 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

So it's basically the Diocletian persecutions all over again, but this time with caffeine and 1000kcal a serving?
posted by sobarel at 4:34 PM on November 10, 2015 [11 favorites]

Well I'm just glad I saved my Ice Skating Snowman, Christmas Caroling Reindeer, and Herod Slaughters The Innocents cups from last year.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [14 favorites]

I kinda feel bad for the War Against Thanksgiving. It's like nobody even cares anymore.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [51 favorites]

Meanwhile, Joshua Feuerstein is in pretty hot competition for the most Jewish name ever.

(Might make a guy feel the need to overcompensate? I'm just sayin'...)
posted by Mchelly at 4:36 PM on November 10, 2015 [14 favorites]

Mlkshk is raging with red cups today:
one, two, three, four, five, six, NSFW! (and a Bonus)
posted by growabrain at 4:36 PM on November 10, 2015 [19 favorites]

Don't want to read about raging red cups.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:37 PM on November 10, 2015

I kinda feel bad for the War Against Thanksgiving. It's like nobody even cares anymore.

In Canada it's the war against Remembrance Day.
posted by GuyZero at 4:37 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

Asking a Republican to explain something really stupid that they said last week = These gotcha questions are distracting us from the real issues that matter to the American people!

Starbucks sells coffee in a red cup = The real issues that matter to the American people!
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [12 favorites]

I personally have it on good authority that Starbucks are planning to centre their Christmas branding in the UK around the Winterval cup. It will be a joyous occasion.
posted by ambrosen at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

For what its worth, a Con Man seems to be behind the initial outrage.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [47 favorites]

It's currently Advent.

Not quite yet for Catholics and many Protestants:

Advent is the beginning of the Western liturgical year and commences on the fourth Sunday before Christmas, the Sunday nearest to St. Andrew's Day (30 November), in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, and in the Anglican, Lutheran, Moravian, Presbyterian and Methodist calendars.[1] In the Ambrosian Rite and the Mozarabic Rite of the Catholic Church, Advent begins on the sixth Sunday before Christmas, the Sunday after St. Martin's Day (11 November).[2]
posted by longdaysjourney at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [16 favorites]

Jesus spelled backward is sausage.
posted by janey47 at 4:40 PM on November 10, 2015 [57 favorites]

It's currently Advent.

Not quite yet for Catholics and many Protestants

Well what is Starbucks doing selling an advent calendar then? Anti-Christian jerks.
posted by Artw at 4:40 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

Groupon has a sale of $15 Starbucks gift cards for only $10. That's only... uh... 66.6% of retail.
posted by hal9k at 4:40 PM on November 10, 2015 [29 favorites]

I've been telling the barista that my name is "Captain Goodbody."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

Jesus spelled backward is sausage.

Holy shit.
posted by eriko at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [21 favorites]

I want to start the war on Christmas just to show them what a war looks like.

Don't wish for that. Sure, the politicians promised that the War on Christmas would be over by, well, Boxing Day last time, but it became a terrible quagmire.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

My favorite bit about this story is the fucking morons who have been telling the barista that their name is Merry Christmas, so that it's written on the cup, and then putting that selfie on FB/Instagram/etc. as a "Gotcha Starbucks!!"

"haha suckers i sure showed you, spending money in your business! CHECKMATE!"
posted by poffin boffin at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [71 favorites]

> However, the fact that Feuerstein's assertion is false doesn't seem to matter to his followers, who've rallied around the video and helped it gain prevalence.

I mean, this is what American conservatism is now.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [25 favorites]

I'm seeing a lot of posts on Facebook by Christians who are angry at the media for making this a big story. They say that nobody is really angry at Starbucks, and it's all a ploy to discredit Christians. But on the other hand, I feel like the War on Christmas stuff has definitely had an effect, and now every business is falling all over itself to remind people that it's Christmastime and it's all about Christmas and there are no generic "holidays" here and people who don't celebrate Christmas are barely tolerated and certainly not welcomed. Like, even the blue wrapping paper at Target has Christmas trees on it, just in case us non-Christians might get any ideas about using it. Or here are some Christmas gummi snow flurries, just in case you might get the impression that winter-themed candy might be non-denominational. It's not a big deal, but it's mildly annoying, and it irritates me that Christians don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that a lot of their co-religionists seem to feel deeply oppressed when stores recognize that people like me exist.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [40 favorites]

I always thought Starbucks was just a front for a cult of Amphitrite that happened to take off, anyway.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:45 PM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Well, I'm offended by this guy's plain red hat.
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 4:45 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

In all seriousness, I think the fact that Howard Schultz is Jewish may have something to do with the vitriol being expressed on social media.

Probably not, because I think the few people that even know his name only know him as the guy who sold the Seattle Sonics.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:49 PM on November 10, 2015

I called Poe's Law on this when this started, and I will call Poe's Law on it now.
posted by SansPoint at 4:51 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

Promotional packaging is an integral part of the Christian message.
posted by klausman at 4:55 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

I mainly feel for the poor baristas, who are the inadvertent foot soldiers on the front line of this particular "war". They didn't sign up for this BS -- other BS, sure, but not this particular BS. Baristas of Starbucks, your nation thanks you for your service in these difficult times.

Also...can I assume there's some sort of counter protest of Christmas non-celebrants spamming his hashtag with pics of these damn red cups with names like, "Happy Kwanzaa!" or "Joyous Hanukkah", or "Bitchin' Winter Solstice"?
posted by mosk at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

If I was Howard Schultz, my response to this would be to replace all of the red cups with blue cups.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2015 [16 favorites]

There are some people in my neck of the woods who take this stuff seriously, complete with wearing buttons advertising their position, but they tend to be the Bible Christian contingent (and even they seem to be the minority of a minority, as it were). My Catholic and mainline Protestant acquaintances just roll their eyes really hard.

This reminds me that it's now the time of year I start trying to figure out where the local Wegmans has stuck the Hanukkah merchandise. It's usually in some counterintuitive location--I mean, not quite next to the cleaning supplies, but not with the other holiday stuff, either. Best of all, every year I've checked, they've had the dates wrong, presumably because the lunar calendar and "holidays begin at sundown" are concepts too difficult to master. Perhaps I can get a "War on Hanukkah" meme going, complete with a call for "latkes and sufganiyot for everyone," free dreidels, and artisanal gelt.*

* Because the regular stuff is some seriously bad chocolate.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:58 PM on November 10, 2015 [18 favorites]

kvetchless chanukah would be ideal
posted by poffin boffin at 4:59 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

If I was Howard Schultz, my response to this would be to replace all of the red cups with blue cups.

Also, I would secretly switch all the coffee to Folgers crystals.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:59 PM on November 10, 2015 [18 favorites]

but i will also accept "blood-drenched yule"
posted by poffin boffin at 5:00 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

"That's funny. Jim never has a second cup of blood-drenched yule at home."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:01 PM on November 10, 2015 [85 favorites]

And it's just Starbucks standard design policy, look at the diffusion of the mermaid logo.
posted by sammyo at 5:01 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

Christian here with an important statement about the red Starbucks cup: it doesn't matter and I don't give a shit.

Please, other Christians, go do something actually Christ-like: feed someone hungry or something, you know?
posted by wenestvedt at 5:01 PM on November 10, 2015 [32 favorites]

Whatever color it is, their logo features A TWIN-TAILED MERMAID. The only way it could be more pagan is if it showed Pan throwing a nun's skirts over her head. There IS NO MODIFICATION which can make a twin-tailed mermaid into a Christmas image, and anybody who is actually bothered by this kind of silly shit should have started camping out outside their local Starbucks in a hair shirt and handing out leaflets, years and years ago.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:03 PM on November 10, 2015 [33 favorites]

The public university I work for now has an all-inclusive Winter Holiday break instead of a Christmas break. (Which I love!)

I sat on an interview panel once, and for university jobs, there is always a diversity question. I don't remember the exact question for this set of interviews, but it was basically asking the candidates to reflect on the university's commitment to reflecting the diversity of its constituents. The purpose of the question is obvious -- if someone is stupid enough to say something racially insensitive or sexist or intolerant of other religions, it's a red flag and you can disqualify them for reasons other than their qualifications or lack of qualifications.

So during this interview, one woman thought for a long while about the question and then visibly brightened when an answer came to her. "I really appreciate the university's commitment to diversity," she started, "and I believe we've made great strides towards equality. For example, I think it's really great how they've designated this generic 'Winter holiday' -- because now everyone can celebrate Christmas!!!"

Moral of the story: Some people can't see outside their own circles, and it sometimes shows up in odd places like job interviews and people's opinions about a giant corporation's drinking vessels.
posted by mudpuppie at 5:04 PM on November 10, 2015 [28 favorites]

Well, if we're following the liturgical calendar, the cups should be green. Save the red for Pentecost.

More seriously, I can barely muster the will to roll my eyes at this. I mean, if I had to apologize every time someone said or did something wrong in the name of Christ, I would literally never stop.
posted by Cash4Lead at 5:05 PM on November 10, 2015 [11 favorites]

> where the local Wegmans has stuck the Hanukkah merchandise.

Speaking of which -- my local Safeway makes sure that I'll have the supplies to celebrate any Jewish holiday during Hanukkah - Passover matzo, yahrzeit candles, gefilte fish, Manischewitz Sweet-Ass Wine®, bar and bat mitzvah cards - if it's even tangentially related to Judaism and they have it in the store, it's pulled from its regular spot on the International Foods aisle and moved to that one hard-to-find end cap across from the gluten free cookies. Thanks for remembering us at all, Safeway!
posted by mosk at 5:06 PM on November 10, 2015 [33 favorites]

I am all for people using whatever emotional crutches they need in order to get the caffeine monkey off their back. Crusade, Jihad, budget planning, willpower or faux outrage. Mostly I feel this way because maybe they will honk their car horns less.
posted by srboisvert at 5:06 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

excuse me but i believe you mean "people's opinions about a giant corporation's hlautbolli"
posted by poffin boffin at 5:06 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

I do miss those nice Starbucks holiday cups. The new ones ... so blah. The little dusting of snowflakes on the heat sleeves and the clear plastic cups don't cut it.
posted by stargell at 5:08 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

While the world rages on and problems like starvation, a massive refugee crisis, and homelessness remain unfixed, people in America — including an American presidential candidate — are arguing over a red beverage container."

I really hate this argument. Even when it's talking about something as dumb as this. Caring about an issue and trying to make the world a better place is not a zero sum game.

Stop trying to assign value judgements to causes so they can compete against each other. Otherwise I'm gonna start asking why you're writing blog articles while people are starving. Shouldn't you like be out there growing them food or something?
posted by mayonnaises at 5:08 PM on November 10, 2015 [24 favorites]

If I was Howard Schultz, my response to this would be to replace all of the red cups with blue cups.

Yep, with festive little dreidels and menorahs, forcing their feeble little brains to short circuit at the prospect of criticizing a Jew.

Put a little Israeli flag on there for maximum cognitive disconnect.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:10 PM on November 10, 2015 [13 favorites]

I can't wait when Muslim holidays get some exposure. Woooo boy!
posted by gucci mane at 5:12 PM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]

Look, Daddy. Teacher says, every time a cash register rings an angel gets PTSD.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [27 favorites]

Then there are these coffee cups from Korean chain Paris Baguette.
posted by needled at 5:16 PM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Speaking of which -- my local Safeway makes sure that I'll have the supplies to celebrate any Jewish holiday during Hanukkah - Passover matzo, yahrzeit candles, gefilte fish, Manischewitz Sweet-Ass Wine®, bar and bat mitzvah cards - if it's even tangentially related to Judaism and they have it in the store

Copies of Fiddler on the Roof, Leon Uris' Exodus,, the collected short stories of Isaac Bashevis Singer, and the complete line of Head & Shoulders shampoos.

a yahrzeit candle would be technically appropriate on Easter, actually. Does anyone say a Kaddish for Jesus? I bet the Jews for Jesus do. Those fuckers.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:17 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

There's a new sorta fancy grocery store in my area, and they have Dr. Brown's soda in the international aisle with the kosher food. I hadn't even realized that Dr. Brown's was particularly Jewish! I just think of it as being from New York.

I always thought it was goofy that they put out the matzoh meal at Hannukah, but apparently some people use it in latkes. I find this to be baffling, but I have been told that it is true.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:23 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

CEL-RAY
posted by poffin boffin at 5:24 PM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]

The red cup persecutes Christians? It's against the law for me to hold public office in seven states. A major presidential candidate said last night that people like me are unfit Americans.

But sure, I guess the cup thing could be a bummer, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:26 PM on November 10, 2015 [57 favorites]

Ok, so I just entered a Starbucks in SE Portland, told the guy " just put on there whatever fun name you want", thinking "what will Portland come up with", and... nothing. He hadn't even heard of the crisis!
posted by klausman at 5:26 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

Americans fighting over what is printed on a coffee cup designed by a billion-dollar company to promote conformity sounds like cold German satire

Why German in particular? If anything this is more French theater of the absurd. Or something like that Ionesco play where everyone turns into a rhinoceros. And he was Romanian. Or more like a sub-Python sketch ("Lumberjacks argue over red cups"). But German? Even Karl Kraus or Georg Grosz would've abandoned this idea as too heavy handed.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]

I've spent years and years trying to be a less angry person, to tame and control my temper, to react to dumb stuff and annoying people with more equanimity and kindness, with varying degrees of success, of course, but I tell you: these days, it feels harder than ever.

I feel like I must be going the opposite direction. I used to get worked up about this stuff, but now I just can't even begin to care.

Starbucks changed their cup design: I can't even think of one reason I might care
People are upset about it: That's fine, I don't care
They're upset for really stupid xenophobic reasons: They would find a reason to get upset anyway, I'm not going to let them make me care about this
But they're even making it part of the national dialogue, thus getting more airtime for their stupid xenophobic ideas: If anything related to the way our culture works is going to change, it's not going to start with a Starbucks cup. I still don't care
But there's a Metafilter post about it: I care exactly enough to click "more inside" and meditate on how little I care
But stavros commented on how it makes him angry: Okay, I guess I care enough to write 200 words about how I don't care
posted by 256 at 5:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [35 favorites]

I've never seen pigs fly. I've never seen anyone walking on water. I've never seen anyone turn iron to gold or blood to wine. I've never seen anyone die and rise again.

Why is it that I have to see these ironic miracles every day? That people can actually believe this bullshit and get outraged by it is truly a miracle the likes of which none of us need.

I absolutely loved the post about Absurdist fiction the other day but this sort absurdism is soul crushing.
posted by juiceCake at 5:30 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

As Joshua Feuerstein awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a monstrous vermin
posted by Death and Gravity at 5:33 PM on November 10, 2015 [15 favorites]

more poetry readings!
posted by clavdivs at 5:33 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

As Joshua Feuerstein awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a monstrous vermin

Donald Trump quickly covered him with a giant red cup with Trump's name on it and escorted Joshua out of the country.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

Safeway is the only local store that has halal meat, lamb from Australia. They were the first local store to offer halal certified TV dinner type foods. They ALWAYS have good California grown dates available during Ramzan.
This may be partly my fault.
My daughter used to work there.

Incidentally, the 'War on Christmas' crowd are all sorts of pissed off with Butterball too, something about their halal turkey.... They want you to Boycott Butterball because 'Butterball sold out to the Muslims'
It's all over Facebook. :(.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

what about surreal nonsense? does surreal nonsense sustain? cause that's the coping strategy I've apparently decided to go with...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

Humor. Dark, dark humor keeps me from killing you all.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:39 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

But stavros commented on how it makes him angry: Okay, I guess I care enough to write 200 words about how I don't care

Heh. No, it's all good, I've got a lid on it, mostly. It's just there's so much. I think I need a bigger teapot, maybe.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:41 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

I was raised Christian, and am now an atheist. It's behavior like this (which SOME people are displaying) that really drove me away from most organized religion. It makes me cringe.

I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas.

This cup thing is even more strange to me and I don't think anyone could possibly have it make sense to me no matter how many times they explain it. And I read that article. I am no more understanding. There was never anything specifically related to Christmas on any of the cups ever. They clearly have just become more minimal in their design as a company. Maybe it's my marketing background. But... it's just a cup.

And my goodness I LOVE people making satanic designs on them. They make me laugh so much.
posted by Crystalinne at 5:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

If my Facebook feed is any indication, Simon Malls opened up another front in the War On Christmas by omitting a Christmas tree from their Santa Claus picture area at Charlotte's South Park mall.

The picture of the new glacier-style display was reposted with the name of our local mall, even though it clearly wasn't taken there. Why let facts get in the way, after all?

Simon quickly changed course and put up a Christmas tree after a change.org petition got tens of thousands of signatures in a couple of days.
posted by dr_dank at 5:43 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

I should find this a fun, wacky story but it reminds me that a large segment of our nation cannot be moved by logic or facts and that scares and frustrates me.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2015 [24 favorites]

The good news is, this controversy created a great opportunity for me to have a frank conversation with my barista about race.
posted by escabeche at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2015 [78 favorites]

Sorry, but your coffee is now property of the Communist Party until January.

GET IN LINE AND WAIT, COMRADES.
posted by lmfsilva at 5:46 PM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]

"The ... controversy flattened Christianity into something easy to hate"

This. So. Hard.

Ignorant fucks like Feuerstein should move to Saudi Arabia if they want to live in a modern day top-down theocracy.

But the internet hate machine grinds infinitely fine, and the stones are powered as much by snotty pseudo-liberal shallow thinkers as by ignorant pseudo-believers.

The Facebook, Facebook echo chambers are a fucking disease.

The irony that I have to have a goddamned opinion on this recurring shitpile of a tempest in a teapot is not lost on me.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:48 PM on November 10, 2015 [12 favorites]

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,---
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

...oh wait, red /cups/, sorry .
posted by warriorqueen at 5:52 PM on November 10, 2015 [13 favorites]

Two shots if by Grande.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2015 [22 favorites]

I've been telling the baristas at Starbucks that my name is "Io Saturnalia!"

Checkmate, atheists.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2015 [21 favorites]

what about surreal nonsense? does surreal nonsense sustain? cause that's the coping strategy I've apparently decided to go with...

Wait, what else was the Warhammer universe supposed to yield...
posted by Slackermagee at 5:55 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

I've never seen anyone walking on water.

i have - in january
posted by pyramid termite at 5:56 PM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Io Saturnalia was ice skating to work.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:56 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

if I weren't already a follower of Octopus Jesus, I'd say we should all just give in and worship Tzeentch.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

When Donald Trump is crowned king, he'll force everyone to say Merry Christmas to you. Then he'll change the name of Christmas to Trumpmas, and everyone will have to say it in greeting 366 days a year. Did I mention that years will be 366 days long every year now? Leap years are for losers!

Trumpmenbashi, in other words!
posted by mudpuppie at 6:01 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

I don't need an article for this. They are mad because they are scared, stupid, ignorant, racist, entitled, whiny assholes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:02 PM on November 10, 2015 [11 favorites]

I think I found the answer on Reddit, of all places.
posted by Mooski at 6:03 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

It's against the law for me to hold public office in seven states.
DirtyOldTown

Just FYI, this is not true.

While seven states do have language in their state constitutions requiring some sort of religious beliefs to hold state office, the Supreme Court's 1961 decision in Torcaso v. Watkins abolished all religious tests for state or federal office as unconstitutional. The provisions in those seven states are thus unenforceable (as in the 1997 decision by the South Carolina Supreme Court in Silverman v. Campbell).
posted by Sangermaine at 6:05 PM on November 10, 2015 [17 favorites]

I don't think they're scared, ignorant - maybe racist - but they are certainly manipulative assholes who have found ways to exploit and profit off people who are scared and ignorant. They're (the manipulators) not much different than the right wing talk show hosts, half the republican party politicians and they're mostly doing very well by doing it. That this enmires the country in hate, fear and anger doesn't matter - all that matters is their egos and their bank accounts.
posted by Death and Gravity at 6:06 PM on November 10, 2015

Does anyone have links to folks of "substance" who are literally upset with this besides the guy yelling from Thursday? Like, I really want to see someone who is legitimately upset by this because all I can find is folks complaining about the "controversy."
posted by Stynxno at 6:10 PM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]

All I know is that my holiday season is not complete without some Spicy Pumpkin Bullshit Jesus.
posted by delfin at 6:10 PM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]

oh Octopus Jesus smite the heretics who follow Spicy Pumpkin Bullshit Jesus with Your almighty sucker-arms and douse them in Your everlasting ink.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:14 PM on November 10, 2015 [19 favorites]

I'm wondering how televangelists are doing these days? Are they failing to get the young people now? Someone who would have sent them money is instead watching angry Youtube and Facebook videos instead?
posted by RobotHero at 6:18 PM on November 10, 2015

ps don't smite Bus Jesus he's a cool guy.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:18 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

FYI, Octopus Jesus tastes really good with a little wasabi and some sake. It's like communion nigiri.
posted by mosk at 6:19 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

I just wish that Starbucks would learn that not all tea steeps at the same temperature.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:31 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

All I know is that my holiday season is not complete without some Spicy Pumpkin Bullshit Jesus.

Technically the beginning of chestnut praline latte season marks the end of pumpkin spice latte season.
posted by Artw at 6:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

the worst part is that everyone at the sbux downstairs already knows my name so if i want my chai dedicated to ODIN ALLFATHER i have to go like 3 blocks away

what an unbearable ordeal
posted by poffin boffin at 6:33 PM on November 10, 2015 [52 favorites]

Well, just wait until they find out what they're doing at all the Starbuck's stores in Seattle, because do they know it's Saturnalia-time?

Turns out Idiocracy was more prescient than anyone realized.
posted by loquacious at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

What does Bus God have to say about this?
posted by mono blanco at 6:36 PM on November 10, 2015

But on the other hand, I feel like the War on Christmas stuff has definitely had an effect, and now every business is falling all over itself to remind people that it's Christmastime and it's all about Christmas and there are no generic "holidays" here and people who don't celebrate Christmas are barely tolerated and certainly not welcomed.

My problem is always when they basically just go around and change "Christmas" to "Holiday" and leave everything else the same. It's like, no, this is not a "Holiday" card, it's a Christmas card (even in the other color schemes). As long as that Starbuck's cup is red and white, it's a Christmas cup.

So what happens is just this weird, token-y nod to the fact that there might, maybe, be another holiday around this time of year, without any actual attempts at bringing in any of the symbols from the other holidays. Or, as others have noted, when they can't even get the dates right.
posted by damayanti at 6:38 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

> What does Bus God have to say about this?

"Beep beep"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:44 PM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Dayamanti, I agree with you - it's why I rant at "Holiday Tree." There's no "Holiday Tree." There's just a Christmas tree, Christmas being one of the many winter holidays, but the only one to be associated with a tree. It doesn't make it not-Christmas to call it a "Holiday" tree, and it doesn't represent the other holidays to just replace with "Christmas" with "Holiday" in renaming the tree.

But whenever I start ranting this rant I realize it is hard to differentiate why this bothers me and that I sound just like the nutty people who are offended about "Holiday Tree" because it's not "Christmas Tree" because the PC folk are trying to replace CHristmas with a generic holiday and Christmas is Best!! and then I get that up-is-down, black-is-white feeling and kind of give up on that one.
posted by Miko at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

do you think it feels good to have your ego stroked by His divine tentacles? cause uh if you do you've got another think comin'.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:51 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

So what happens is just this weird, token-y nod to the fact that there might, maybe, be another holiday around this time of year, without any actual attempts at bringing in any of the symbols from the other holidays.

I can only speak for myself, one Jewish dude, but for me what's token-y is when they do stick a menorah on there, or maybe even something for Diwali and Kwanzaah. I'm cool with a tree and I think it's polite and thoughtful when they take the word "Christmas" off it. Yes, obviously, I know it's a Christmas tree, I'm no fool, but I feel like it's a nice patriotic gesture to take the actual word off the tree in recognition that, while America has a majority religion, it has no official one.
posted by escabeche at 6:53 PM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]

ohmigod, I've been drinking draft beer out of red Solo cups for years. Anyone else smell brimstone?
posted by Artful Codger at 7:04 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

I saw the backlash memes on my fb feed for about four days before I saw anything directly about the controversy. I had to kind of infer what was going on and never got to build up a good head of outrage.
posted by PussKillian at 7:07 PM on November 10, 2015

I can only speak for myself, one Jewish dude, but for me what's token-y is when they do stick a menorah on there, or maybe even something for Diwali and Kwanzaah.

Yeah; to make it clearer-- it's really the "token" aspect of it that's the issue for me, and so shoving a menorah in the corner doesn't cut it for me either (also a Jew, in case that wasn't obvious). It's like when I was in elementary school and we would play sing 100000 Christmas carols for the holiday concert and then we would tuck "Ma'ot Tzur"* in there at the last minute.

*Or even worse for me, some sort of weird song with dramatic lyrics about the magic of the lights of Hannukah, or something
posted by damayanti at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas.

Because it's not really about defending Christmas from much of anything beyond a handful of local cranks. It's a conservative mass-media dogwhistle and shibboleth for anti-atheist bigotry (and if other non-Christians get caught in the crossfire, so much the better). And the whole point of this yearly bit of news theatre is to stereotype atheists as unreasonable and unneighborly.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]

::sigh::

Anyone for tea and chocolate Hobnobs?
posted by droplet at 7:18 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

i mean for fuck's sake christians it has been like 2,000 years since you faced actual persecution, if no lion is currently chewing on you in the colosseum then just drink your gingerbread frappucino and chillax
posted by poffin boffin at 7:18 PM on November 10, 2015 [28 favorites]

FFS, it's not even mid-November.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:19 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

There has never been and never will be a group as oppressed as the White American Christian.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:20 PM on November 10, 2015 [17 favorites]

The singular seasonal cup design puts a lot of eggs into one basket. Consequently the cups are all pretty blah. They should make it into a contest a la Jones soda. I don't know how many designs it would be feasible to produce, but it would be cool to know there was a good chance of seeing your design (if you make enough trips to Starbucks!)
posted by mantecol at 7:21 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

shibboleth for anti-atheist bigotry

Hey, don't sell these people short. It's also a shibboleth for anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim and anti-non-Western-religion bigotry. You get so much with one statement!
posted by Miko at 7:23 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

ohmigod, I've been drinking draft beer out of red Solo cups for years.

As Wonderella pointed out on Twitter, if solid red cups are a war on Christmas, then Solo shot first.
posted by straight at 7:29 PM on November 10, 2015 [45 favorites]

And as I ask myself whenever something like this happens "Who is profiting from this?"
This Joshua person gets a name for himself (if he didn't already have one), Star bucks gets publicity for being sensitive to multiple religions, and competitors get the business starbucks loses.
posted by FallowKing at 7:33 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think the controversy is silly, but have been enjoying the memes! The Carson and Jesus is my fav, but this one is really good too.
posted by annsunny at 7:33 PM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

if no lion is currently chewing on you in the colosseum

I was just at the Colosseum a couple weeks ago. I can confirm, lots of Christians, no lions. Lots of selfie sticks though, which are almost as bad as lions.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

For what its worth, a Con Man seems to be behind the initial outrage.

This does not surprise me in the least. As I said to someone the other day, Jesus hung out with real whores, not attention whores.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:54 PM on November 10, 2015 [10 favorites]

As Wonderella pointed out on Twitter, if solid red cups are a war on Christmas, then Solo shot first.

I don't know about the states, but Starbucks Canada stopped using Solo cups a couple of years ago, for a cheaper brand. I don't know if the customers noticed, but the lids were more annoying to sort.
posted by jb at 7:59 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

RobotHero: "I'm wondering how televangelists are doing these days? Are they failing to get the young people now?"

I almost used the phrase "internet-savvy" but if you're savvy you might recognize something like this as bullshit.

I guess it's more of an identity thing. Like, the televangelist might seem too stuffy and old-fashioned, but someone getting angry on Youtube? He's just like me!

And the first I saw of it was this:

wow you guys really showed them by uhhh giving them money and then writing on garbage

(Though of course Joshua Feuerstein's claim that "Tens of thousands of CHRISTIANS INVADED STARBUCKS" is something that would require confirmation from a source I can trust further than I can spit.)

But because of the circles I travel in, something like this is more likely to get signal boosted because they're acting like nincompoops, and if they take a break from being nincompoops and volunteer at a homeless shelter or something, I'm not going to hear about that, right? And there are probably atheist youtubers jumping on this as a chance to point and laugh at the nincompoops. And then they'll lament how maligned and misrepresented Christians are, that people act like they're nincompoops. And then that belief that they're maligned helps convince them the next big outrage is totally plausible.
posted by RobotHero at 8:00 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

Religious fervor.

A language incomprehensible to logic with a lexicon of words and phrases borrowed hodgepodge from holy texts.

Sacred icons supporting a vague sense of belonging that are used as pillars of undeniable and unarguable truth.

Scrutiny translated as endless barrage flowing through crowds locked in mindshare and overwhelming emotional ecstasy.

Arms locked joined together in the face of God.

Evangelical tent revival. Justin Bieber concert. Next week’s protest on the quad.
posted by four panels at 8:04 PM on November 10, 2015

Seriously though there is a Sliders world where this was an inflection point and two hundred years from now priests are saying "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Cup With A Snowflake" as they dunk nuBabies in hoverfonts.
posted by No-sword at 8:10 PM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]

Starbucks should just get some stickers. One sticker per cup. Crosses, zeros with lines through them, turkeys, pilgrim hats rainbow christmas trees, snowmen and women, snowflakes, unicorns, stonehenge symbols, Celtic knots, Islamic tile patterns, flying saucers, guns, roses, Christmas ornaments, Merry Christmas, Menorahs, stars, angels, voodoo symbols, smiley faces, winks, elephants, donkeys. One per customer.
posted by Oyéah at 8:42 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

Things Jesus (by official accounts) cared about: sharing wealth, feeding the hungry, clothing naked people, visiting those sick and in prison, not being a hypocrite.

Things people who wear What Would Jesus Do bracelets care about: monitoring and punishing other people's use of their own genitals, enforcing what they see as the only appropriate holiday rituals on everyone, expressing a constant paranoid fear of (and desire to hurt) Muslims and immigrants, and accumulating guns.

It's just baffling. How you get from the Sermon on the Mount to this, I'll never know.
posted by emjaybee at 8:44 PM on November 10, 2015 [39 favorites]

It's just baffling. How you get from the Sermon on the Mount to this, I'll never know.

If you give a bunch of monkeys paints and a brush, it's mostly going to be a multi-colored mess smeared on everything valuable and the brush stuck in their arsehole, not "Wheatfield with Crows".
posted by maxwelton at 8:49 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

The only War on Christmas I am interested in fighting is trying to ensure no one even mentions it until Thanksgiving is done.

I think this is entirely reasonable and I am all for it. What pisses me off is when I devotedly keep this rule, start putting up my Christmas stuff the day after Thanksgiving and immediately some jerk wants to tell me that I have to wait for American Thanksgiving. Fuck that. Even the Santa Claus parade happens before American Thanksgiving. Is it my fault Americans put their harvest festival months after the harvest?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:03 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

I don't know about the states, but Starbucks Canada stopped using Solo cups a couple of years ago, for a cheaper brand. I don't know if the customers noticed, but the lids were more annoying to sort.

The solo cup reference wasn't a reference to the cup supplier that Starbucks uses or doesn't use, but to the ubiquitous red cups found at every party, barbecue, and picnic.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:06 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think that next year Starbucks should head off any controversy by making the cups feature a, just, super bloody photorealistic image of Christ on the cross. Crown of thorns, spear in the side, the whole nine. Something like this in bas-relief.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:24 PM on November 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

I think that's the Easter cup.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:25 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

How you get from the Sermon on the Mount to this, I'll never know.

Organised religion makes people vulnerable to hypocritical charlatans and violent sociopaths. And there are lots of them about.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 9:35 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

"There's a wonderful quote from the Imperial Witch Hunter in the game Vermintide that I'd like to share with you."

For me it's always emperor Turhan's quote in Babylon 5 that comes to mind when contemplating why people do the strange things they do:

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, and the future frightens us."
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]

Technically you can still get psl through late january/early feb because they still have a ton of the syrup or mix or whatever it is. they just don't advertise it

the real tragedy is the absence of pumkin scones
posted by poffin boffin at 10:02 PM on November 10, 2015

(if someone tells me to make them myself i will challenge them to the holmgang)
posted by poffin boffin at 10:02 PM on November 10, 2015

It's Diwali tomorrow and we could REALLY use some light and knowledge to win over the darkness and ignorance plaguing our nation.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:31 PM on November 10, 2015 [11 favorites]

Light? How about Ocho Kandelikas?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:45 PM on November 10, 2015

Rob Lowe weighs in!

Mellow out Rob, jeeze.
posted by ominous_paws at 10:54 PM on November 10, 2015

Red Starbucks cup, I fill you up
Let's hate everybody, let's hate everybody

"I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas. "

Even more ridiculous is that even if you're a Christmas-celebrating Christian, you know what other holiday those people are likely to celebrate? That's right, NEW YEAR'S. At the bare minimum, "Happy Holidays" can equate to "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year" in your brain if you like.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:08 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

That's actually really on the money. It's "interesting" how often people in the dominant culture feel they are being persecuted when they actually mean "stop trying to make this anything other than 100 per cent for and about me".
posted by ominous_paws at 11:13 PM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is...is Rob Lowe serious?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:46 PM on November 10, 2015

War (against christmas). War (against christmas) never changes....
posted by Pendragon at 12:12 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Stop trying to assign value judgements to causes so they can compete against each other. Otherwise I'm gonna start asking why you're writing blog articles while people are starving. Shouldn't you like be out there growing them food or something?

So you're outraged over the outrage over the outrage. Ouroboros powers activate!
posted by blucevalo at 12:18 AM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

I am laughing so hard (at these comments) that I'm worried I will wake up my housemates who mistakenly are thinking I have lost my mind.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:54 AM on November 11, 2015

Why is this on here?
posted by gorcha at 2:29 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I can't believe no-one has said it yet... a storm in a tea(coffee)-cup?
posted by mary8nne at 3:00 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

i mean for fuck's sake christians it has been like 2,000 years since you faced actual persecution, if no lion is currently chewing on you in the colosseum then just drink your gingerbread frappucino and chillax

That isn't true, globally speaking (and I am referring to actual persecution, not spurious claims of it re: Kim Davis and the like).

Concur entirely with your point that the Venn diagram of PERSECUTION and RED STARBUCKS CUPS comprises 2 discrete circles with ∞ space between them, however.

I apologise for the deeply embarrassing antics of certain of my co-religionists regarding this matter.
posted by Morfil Ffyrnig at 3:14 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is it my fault Americans put their harvest festival months after the harvest?

Is it our fault that it is so cold in Canada that your harvest has to be a month and a half earlier than ours?
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:24 AM on November 11, 2015

But there's nothing satirical about this. The conflict over this dumb cup is so passionate that the original version of a viral "Starbucks' War on Christmas" video has more than 14 million views.

If Joshua Feuerstein is getting the nominal $7.60 per 1,000 impressions on YouTube, then this video nets him a cool $106,400 for a few minutes work, more than most people or households make in a year.

Shit, I'll say ice is hot if it'll land a payday like that.
posted by dr_dank at 4:32 AM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

Is...is Rob Lowe serious?

Not since St. Elmo's Fire.
posted by srboisvert at 5:04 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really want to boost the signal on this "con man" thing. Because this is not an example of any number of actual Christians getting outraged, but of one guy who pushed this campaign hard, apparently based on a brief mention he found in Brietbart. He then made a video and started pushing a hashtag and suggesting the narrative, hoping conservative bloggers and eventually the mass media would pick up on it as part of their "War on Christmas" narrative, and they did. And then we did, jumping in to play our usual parts. Only this time, the whole thing was even more fabricated than usual, and doesn't come down to much of a community in agreement on this at all, just one guy who understands social and conventional media.

Some of these links are from blogs I don't usually read, but I found them well-supported and reasoned:

Snopes - The War on Christmas Cups

Christianity Today: When We Love Outrage More Than People: Starbucks Cups and You: "this is the wrong fight and being done in the wrong way. And, it's just making Christians look silly, like so many of these fake controversies do....Don't get mad about stuff that doesn't matter."

Starbucks Cups: Yeah, Get Angry...Suckah!: "news sites — New York Times, Washington Post, Time Magazine, New York Daily News — say “some Christians” or “Christian evangelists” take exception to Starbucks’ new plain red cups … but they never actually name the “some Christians” they’re talking about. Is it the Catholic Church in all its might? No. The Southern Baptist Convention? No. It isn’t even Pat Robertson. Apparently it’s this one guy, Joshua Feuerstein, a “public figure” who does stuff like this to promote his own video rants on Facebook and elsewhere...."

Nobody is Actually Upset About the Starbucks Cup - Stop Saying Otherwise: (This is also an amazingly well-done article situating "Christmas wars" within the history of the American relationship to Christmas. the Christian right across the American apst who more often than not tried to stamp out Christmas rather than celebrate it, and secularization and capitalism)

Red Starbucks Cups: A Story of Viral Outrage Marketing

It's interesting that we're seeing a lot of this pushback from other religious and other conservative/libertarian quarters who didn't jump on this particular bandwagon. To me that suggests a couple things: 1) further evidence of the fracturing of the coalition of the right, separating political libertarians from religiously motivated social-controllers; 2) that this narrative is worn out, not doing any work any more to advance the narrative of creeping liberalism/secularism, and 3) that mainstream Christians and conservatives are recognizing that this sort of narrative is actually making them look ridiculous and undermining any serious thoughts they want to be heard.

All promising developments from my POV. Because of course, just about every WOC narrative ever has also been trumped up based on some local flap or blogger's reaction to some marketing decision, only now there is more willingness to unpack it and critique the phenomenon for what it is - a circus that distracts from actual issues and makes people who participate look stupid and shallow.
posted by Miko at 5:53 AM on November 11, 2015 [32 favorites]

Most of the local baristas know me, but when I'm having a particularly weirdo day and run into a barista I don't know, sometimes I'll say, extra deadpan, "My name is Victoria Winters."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:16 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas.

To state the obvious, the way it makes sense is if these people's value system actively includes competing with / denigrating / attacking other religions, for which of course we have plenty of evidence already, in the historical record of Christianity in general, and now in particular the activism of contemporary American Christian fundamentalism. These folks literally see themselves at war with every other religion for the fate of humanity.

Now, the fact that such an apocalyptic scope can focus itself onto such a seemingly trivial matter as the color scheme of a disposable coffee cup illustrates how thoroughly consumer culture has insinuated itself into even these folks' personal priorities.
posted by aught at 6:31 AM on November 11, 2015

wait...it's Christmas? Wow. It really sneaked up on me.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:47 AM on November 11, 2015

Is it our fault that it is so cold in Canada that your harvest has to be a month and a half earlier than ours?

No New England state (origin of US thanksgiving) harvests in November. And plenty of places in Canada are warmer than New England (especially Maine....is Maine some kind of portal to Antarctica?...Seriously, what is up with Maine? I've never been as cold in my life as I was one rainy night in May in Maine. That wind rips right through your soul).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

This article is a great explanaition for this stupid meme that has taken over imgur. Though now I kind of wish I didn't know because the explanations I was turning over in my mind were so much better.

dr_dank: "If Joshua Feuerstein is getting the nominal $7.60 per 1,000 impressions on YouTube"

Holy fuck, is that actually the rate? That explains so much.
posted by Mitheral at 7:02 AM on November 11, 2015

My nine-year-old daughter suggested that you should be able to pick your own cup design and Starbucks should just print it on the cup while you wait. #IdeaOfTheDay
posted by newdaddy at 7:02 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Honestly, this totally escaped my notice until George Takei posted his riposte to it on Facebook. And even then, I couldn't be arsed to find out what the original controversy was all about.

Not even for you, Uncle George. Not even for you.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:04 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Shortly before she died, my elderly, talk-radio-listening grandmother announced that the fad for only white lights on Christmas trees was a political-correctness conspiracy by liberals intended to ruin Christmas. I remember asking her whether, if that were really the case, wouldn't the liberals insist on all colored lights, to demonstrate their multicultural leanings? And wouldn't right-wingers be excited about all-white lights on Christmas trees? Didn't she have it backwards? That actually did give her pause for just a second.

Right after that, she started refusing to sleep in her bed because it wasn't a "sleep number" bed, and Rush Limbaugh said that the only bed that was good enough was a sleep number bed. Sigh. I hope grandmom's finally resting in peace.
posted by staggering termagant at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2015 [9 favorites]

As usual, I just use this type of insane non-oppressive controversy to prune down my Facebook contacts.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas.

An example:

“We were asked a question by a student, what’s the greatest virtue of the United States of America? You know what Howard Dean said? Diversity.” Santorum incredulously noted as the host laughed. “But that’s what they believe!” Santorum continued.

If you believe that your way is the only correct way and the only acceptable way, diversity and inclusion are not only negatives -- they are threats. These are people who aren't satisfied being the #1 religion in America if #2 and #3 and so on actually get to sit at their table.
posted by delfin at 7:19 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

Being a nonsense cause promoted by a conman doesn't exactly make it unique in the Christian Rightosphere, I mean that's 99% of what they do isn't it?
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Even more ridiculous is that even if you're a Christmas-celebrating Christian, you know what other holiday those people are likely to celebrate? That's right, NEW YEAR'S. At the bare minimum, "Happy Holidays" can equate to "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year" in your brain if you like.

My Grandma kept every single card she ever got. Boxes of cards from mid 1920's to the 1980s.

If these cards are any indication "Happy Holidays" as a greeting was completely normal, for like forever. The older pre "Happy Holiday' freak out were referring to Christmas and New Years. I remember back in the 70s it sure did though my Mom did say that it was good because it could technically cover Hanukkah as well. I also remember thinking that it was cool to get cards that were also saying "Hey, you get to be off school for a couple of weeks have a Happy Holiday" I really thought people were referring to being off school.
posted by Jalliah at 7:35 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

I really want to boost the signal on this "con man" thing.

Yeah, to reiterate what Miko's pointing out, I think the con man thing is way more interesting than the witty jokes we're having at the expese of the ~17 people who are legitimately upset about the red cups. As Joey Michaels linked upthread, this dude is the same dude who also called a bakery asking for an anti-gay cake and then unleashed his followers on the poor business owner when she refused (thinking it was an April Fools' joke).

I'm interested in how con men like this come into existence. Who is supporting him and what do they get in return for their monetary support? What does he offer that a traditional religion or charity not offer? How many supporters does he really have? Daily Kos says he lives in his parents' house, yet wears fancy clothes and watches. How much is he really making off of his manufactured controversies? How self-aware is he about what he is doing--like, is it pure trolling or does he believe some or all of what he spews? Is there overlap among his followers and other easily-outraged, quick to harass people on the internet groups like MRAs, goobergators, #tcot, and the like?

I feel like I'm half contributing to the problem by even commenting in this thread; but another thing I think about is how do we police ourselves enough to respond to legitimate oppression and controversies that actually affect people's lives, while letting the things go that are clearly rantings of a handful of lunatics or people trolling for sweet, sweet youtube cash? It feels like responding to the responses to the responses just turns into a feedback loop that keeps the stuff going for longer. Is the answer to just stay silent? I corrected a coworker in a meeting yesterday who brought it up and framed it as "Starbucks was trying to be politically correct," but should I not have done that? I'm just not even sure anymore when everything becomes an outrage or making fun of the outrage, how to surface the actually important outrages, ya know?
posted by misskaz at 7:36 AM on November 11, 2015 [5 favorites]

Nobody is Actually Upset About the Starbucks Cup - Stop Saying Otherwise

That actually was a good article, which surprises me given the site's overall ickiness.

"Look at this outrageous thing that some right-wing evangelist neocon extremist dickbag said!" is a story I don't want to read anymore. I'll admit there have been some funny parodies of this thing, but I do wish the left would just stop feeding the trolls.
posted by Foosnark at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

I find it pretty easy to ignore kerfuffles like this one, but when I hear of them it makes me doubly glad that Metafilter exists... just to be reassured that sane folk are out there.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

As a follower of Octopus Jesus, who nearly two thousand years ago was killed when Underwater Romans nailed His eight limbs to a giant wooden snowflake, I support these attempts to put snowflakes back on Starbucks cups.

I feel like you are mocking Spider Jesus, the true eight-legged savior, here. Do not mock Spider Jesus.

Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ
Made the ultimate sacrifice.
Forgave our sins, any size.
On the cross he paid the price.
Look out!
Here comes God. Jesus Christ.

I am not in any way making this up.
posted by The Bellman at 7:44 AM on November 11, 2015 [10 favorites]

Is he righteous? Listen, bud! He's got transubstantiated blood!
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:47 AM on November 11, 2015 [9 favorites]

Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, does whatever a messiah... mightst? Needs work.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:56 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

That Vox article is really good. Thanks for linking to it.
posted by persona au gratin at 8:02 AM on November 11, 2015

Is...is Rob Lowe serious?

The name says Rob Lowe, but that was actually the twitter for Right Wing Douchebag Rob Lowe.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:05 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really don't understand how saying "Happy Holidays" to be INCLUSIVE of everyone is somehow a "war on Christmas." It literally doesn't make sense. It's including the holiday of Christmas.

All Holidays Matter.

(In other words, it's only offensive if you've convinced yourself that people who celebrate Christmas are a small, oppressed minority whose concerns are being ignored by the wider culture. When are we going to get as many days off for Christmas as we do for Kwanzaa and Hanukkah?)
posted by straight at 8:05 AM on November 11, 2015

I didn't read all of the comments. So, has anyone said "tempest in a paper coffee cup" yet? If not I'll do it. Just let me know.
posted by Splunge at 8:14 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Talk of how stupid people who are mad at Starbucks are has been all over my Facebook feed for several days now, from all sorts of people (atheists, Jews, Christians who want to make sure their friends know that they aren't that kind of Christian), but I haven't seen a single person I know mad at Starbucks (and granted I have a much smaller number of right-wing friends, but still), so the whole thing feels sort of ickily self-congratulatory to me: "Look at me, I'm opposed to some basically nonexistent example small-mindedness, click like for my commitment to social justice here." It's too easy, especially from people who would never take a public stance on an issue that is even slightly more controversial or difficult.

But maybe I will regret my eye-rolling when President Trump is making sure that "we're all going to be saying Merry Christmas again," who knows.
posted by naoko at 8:42 AM on November 11, 2015 [8 favorites]

You know, if all these Christian Starbucks customers really cared about Christmas ....

They would carry a re-usable travel mug! (so as to try and help make sure that we have a planet to have Christmas on).

Also: we need to campaign to demand that Starbucks gives a larger discount to people who carry their own mugs, like $0.50 or something (it's currently a measly 10 cents). Disposable coffee cups are a huge source of trash -- and in store "recycling bins" are a joke. The employees are told to throw the recycling into the garbage.

Protest against EVERYTHING bad by carrying your own mug!

(Yes, I carry my own mug - I don't drive, but walk, cycle or bus, so I'm schlepping my travel mug in my bag every day. I do this because I care about the environment, and because I'm hella cheap and if I can save 10 cents I will. It also helps that I have an excellent travel mug which stays sealed in my bag and thus I don't have to worry about getting anything dirty. If you want to know more about travel mugs and my recommendations, please memail me and I will talk more about travel mugs than you ever wanted to hear.)
posted by jb at 8:45 AM on November 11, 2015 [7 favorites]

Who is supporting him and what do they get in return for their monetary support?

douchebags like Breitbart, traditionally.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:48 AM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

...when Underwater Romans nailed His eight limbs to a giant wooden snowflake...
Those Romans, always adding two too many branches to their snowflakes!
posted by blueberry at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

So, I also carry a travel mug with me, jb (a Seahawks mug - GO HAWKS!), but ironically (OK, it's not true irony, it's actually just coincidentally), I managed to accidentally leave it at home yesterday, of all days, and I wound up actually getting my morning 8-shot latte (shut up! stop judging me!) in a Starbucks red cup. And the barista, who is awesomesauce incarnate, laughed and accused me of just doing it to get the red cup. True story. And this was BEFORE this thread started. Neither of us said anything about Christmas, and it was at that point that Baby Jesus started crying, but I think He was just colicky, at least that's what Mary said when I dropped my change in her cup on the corner outside.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Talk of how stupid people who are mad at Starbucks are has been all over my Facebook feed for several days now [...] but I haven't seen a single person I know mad at Starbucks..."

Ditto. But boy were they worked up about this mall's TWA-Terminal / "Glacier" version of Santa's Workshop
posted by Mchelly at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

>>...when Underwater Romans nailed His eight limbs to a giant wooden snowflake...
> Those Romans, always adding two too many branches to their snowflakes!

Oh god not this "snowflakes display sixfold symmetry, not eightfold" crap that we keep hearing from heretical followers of Beetle Jesus. Why do so many people have an inordinate fondness for Beetle Jesus, anyway?

First of all: it was the Underwater Romans who snowflakified our cephalopod Lord, not the regular Romans. Very different. Second, though, just as regular Jesus was crucified with His two bottom limbs on one extension of the cross, Octopus Jesus was snowflakified with His bottom two limbs on the bottom limb of the snowflake and His two top limbs on the top limb of the snowflake. Everyone knows this.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:14 AM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

My problem is always when they basically just go around and change "Christmas" to "Holiday" and leave everything else the same.

My first year at my current job, there was a celebration at the end of the year, including staff from several departments including my own (also Legal and Community Relations). It was a nice party, but there was significant emphasis on the idea that it was not being billed as a "Christmas" party or even a "Holiday" party - it was just an "end of year celebration" and recognition of everybody's hard work. Like I said, it was fun; they took us out to lunch and drinks were on the company and all that good stuff.

At everybody's place at the table in the restaurant where we had the event, there was a gold or silver envelope with glittery stars or snowflakes on it. Inside each envelope was a card with more glitter and friendly non-denominational salutations - Season's Greetings, Happy New Year, that kind of thing.

And inside each card was a gift certificate for a free ham.
posted by nickmark at 10:17 AM on November 11, 2015 [12 favorites]

And inside each card was a gift certificate for a free ham.

That is just so awesome in a black, humor awesome way.
posted by Jalliah at 10:20 AM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's like, "Happy Hanukkah, from management. Enjoy ten dollars off a bacon menorah, while quantities last."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:26 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

now i have to email chabad and ask them if it's okay to use lard candles in a menorah if it's the only thing available
posted by poffin boffin at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

now i have to email chabad and ask them if it's okay to use lard candles in a menorah if it's the only thing available

You're not one of those people who like to eat the candles, are you? That's not how it's done.

Incidentally, my trip to Wegmans this morning revealed that they have two signs, right next to each other, one with the correct date for the beginning of Chanukah and one with the incorrect date. This is...creative, yet not, perhaps, altogether helpful.
posted by thomas j wise at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

You're not one of those people who like to eat the candles, are you?

This is just an opportunity to ask under what conditions it would be okay to eat lard candles.
posted by Miko at 11:23 AM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

They're perfect for a light meal.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:42 AM on November 11, 2015 [7 favorites]

They're perfect for a light meal.

Sure, if you want heartburn.
posted by The Bellman at 12:02 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Wick-ed bad heartburn, for sure!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

OK, enough, we candelabra-ate on this joke any further.
posted by The Bellman at 12:07 PM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

Don't worry: It'll taper off.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:13 PM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm really questioing your votive here.
posted by ian1977 at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2015 [8 favorites]

Sorry. I was just waxing poetic.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:25 PM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

Not trying to lard it over anyone.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:26 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

..when Underwater Romans nailed His eight limbs to a giant wooden snowflake...
> Those Romans, always adding two too many branches to their snowflakes!

Oh god not this "snowflakes display sixfold symmetry, not eightfold" crap

Why does Worm Jesus get no love? He eats dirt in a very humble way and we all could learn from that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:26 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

misskaz: "Is the answer to just stay silent? I corrected a coworker in a meeting yesterday who brought it up and framed it as "Starbucks was trying to be politically correct," but should I not have done that?"

I think that's a net positive. You didn't bring it up out of the blue. You're not just pointing and laughing. You're not intruding on a stranger's conversation to correct them.
posted by RobotHero at 12:26 PM on November 11, 2015

Well it's certainly none of my beeswax.
posted by ian1977 at 12:29 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

...when Underwater Romans nailed His eight limbs to a giant wooden snowflake...
Those Romans, always adding two too many branches to their snowflakes!

Dogwhistle for those who recognize the unspeakable noneuclidean geometries of the solstice.
posted by clew at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Nickmark: And inside each card was a gift certificate for a free ham.

My brother used to work for a large, privately-held, strangle-hold-on-legal-publishing firm which I will not name here. Before going public, they gave out fruit in the cafeteria twice a week ("Eat your fruit! Be healthy!"), and also gave each employee a ham at Easter time. Which, for the few Jews in that Midwestern town, was also...a Passover gift? Or something? (Certainly a source of eyeroll-fatigue, anyway.)

My brother was aware of this and suitably, wincingly amused. I am not sure whether he scored any free hams off non-Christians, but those were hungry, fresh-out-of-college days so I wouldn't put it past him.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:37 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

But maybe I will regret my eye-rolling when President Trump is making sure that "we're all going to be saying Merry Christmas again," who knows.

Trump saying that made me think of Clark Griswold and his "we're all gonna have so much fucking fun" rant.
posted by Foosnark at 12:55 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Where do you think you're going? Nobody's leaving. Nobody's walking out on this fun, old-fashioned family War-On-Christmas thread. No, no. We're all in this together. This is a full-blown, four-alarm holiday emergency here. We're gonna press on, and we're gonna have the hap, hap, happiest War-On-Christmas since Bing Crosby danced the Hora with Danny fucking Kaye. And when Trump squeezes his fat white ass into Starbucks tonight, he's gonna find the jolliest bunch of assholes this side of the nuthouse.

And Hey! If any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Howard Schultz, that loser, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big red ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of atheist monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:08 PM on November 11, 2015 [5 favorites]

Poor Griswold, caught right smack dab in the middle between his 1% boss and his 47% cousin-in-law Eddie. Seems to me, he lives his life like a...uh...thing...in the wind.
posted by ian1977 at 1:27 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Goodbye Christmas Tree
Though I never knew you at all
You had the grace to hold yourself
While squirrels around you crawled
They crawled out of the woodwork
And they chittered into our brains
They clung onto our sweaters
And they made our mothers faint
And it seems to me you lived your life
Like a candle made of lard
Never knowing who to cling to
When the wind blew hard
And I would have liked to have known you
But I was just a bard
Your candle burned out long before
We cut you from the yard
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't get it. Starbuck's is a MASSIVE corporation, at least based on the number of stores I see around.

It shouldn't promote Christmas. It should be ecumenical, no?

I like this part, where the guys thinks he's too smart for Christians:

"Starbucks has become a place of sanctuary during the holidays," Jeffrey Fields, Starbucks vice president of design and content, said in a statement. "We’re embracing the simplicity and the quietness of it. It’s a more open way to usher in the holiday."

Dog-whistle politics! Open = Tolerant!

And inside each card was a gift certificate for a free ham.

At my first job, employees had a choice between a holiday party or a $10 gift certificate to Kroger's (which could not be used on alcohol, tobacco, or lottery tickets). I think I still have the gift certificate somewhere as a memento.

Sad to say, I think that was my best Christmas bonus ever.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

What is a snowflake but an incomplete 2 dimensional diagram of the corner of a tesseract?
posted by Artw at 2:04 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Fwiw, the real (17th century) War on Christmas is a much better (if longer) read.

Problem with Christmas back then was that (Puritans thought) there was too much drinking and fucking during the holiday season. Also, only dirty Catholics celebrate Christmas. lol.

"Rags of the Beast" would be a killer name for a Christian metal band.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:05 PM on November 11, 2015 [3 favorites]

And inside each card was a gift certificate for a free ham.

And that ham's name? Albert Einstein.
posted by Splunge at 3:29 PM on November 11, 2015 [4 favorites]

This is one of the saddest things I've ever been exposed to.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:43 PM on November 11, 2015

The War on Christmas is coming from inside the room!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:46 PM on November 11, 2015

This is a tempest in venti paper cup. This is put together by a lazy segment of the media like a middle school instigator 'Did you hear what he said about your mom?! Why don't you go hit him?' Going forward I hashtag this #TwoPunditsOneCup
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 4:48 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Dunkin Donuts panders with holiday-themed cups
posted by zakur at 5:31 PM on November 11, 2015

There was a CT/RI local coffee chain called Bess Eaton that folded in the early oughts. They were known for a couple things: 1) their coffee and donuts were way better than Dunkin's, and 2) all their coffee cups had a Bible verse printed on them. Other than that, it didn't hit you over the head with Christianity, and all kinds of people went there. I know someone bought the name and resurrected a few stores, but not whether the cups still have the verses. Maybe they were just way ahead of their time in uniting coffee and a li'l shot of Scripture.
posted by Miko at 5:51 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

In other news...
Chocolate Maccabees or Santas?
posted by naoko at 6:44 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

i think pretty much every frum jew i know would just cacklingly regift the ham to some unsuspecting goyische friend like a weird pork fairy so really everyone wins
posted by poffin boffin at 7:27 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

I came in assuming the first comment would be a joke about Why Is Everybody So Mad About The Cups. Nope. Okay, well, one of the first ten comments? Nope.

228 comments, and no riffs on it. Has this slipped from contemporary memelore into an ancient inside joke that the young generation is totally unaware of, like the forgotten gags in an old Bugs Bunny cartoon? Am I a time traveler from the past?
posted by Bugbread at 8:09 PM on November 11, 2015

I don't get the reference.
posted by Miko at 8:21 PM on November 11, 2015

Why is everybody mad about the cups?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:06 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

Huh. A Google search shows that it was popular in MetaTalk for a four year period from 2005 to 2008, and then just popped up twice since then. I guess it took a more prominent hold in my mind than in the public at large.
posted by Bugbread at 9:10 PM on November 11, 2015 [1 favorite]

Nice to see Dr. Chuck Tingle is on the case!
posted by Itaxpica at 9:16 PM on November 11, 2015 [6 favorites]

I clicked the Favorite link on that comment super hard, Itaxpica.
posted by Bugbread at 9:39 PM on November 11, 2015

First of all: it was the Underwater Romans who snowflakified our cephalopod Lord, not the regular Romans. Very different. Second, though, just as regular Jesus was crucified with His two bottom limbs on one extension of the cross, Octopus Jesus was snowflakified with His bottom two limbs on the bottom limb of the snowflake and His two top limbs on the top limb of the snowflake. Everyone knows this.

Pretty hard getting an octopus in a clinch when he can ~~materialize 32 cubic feet of soft goods~~ cast water-to-wine as a ranged attack once per turn. Or summon an angry mob of 10d20 fish (and loaves) once per day.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:44 PM on November 11, 2015 [2 favorites]

I guess it took a more prominent hold in my mind than in the public at large.

Those were peak MeFi'ing years for me and I have zero memory of that.
posted by Miko at 5:38 AM on November 12, 2015

So persecution is a company NOT celebrating your particular religious holiday? Do they even conceive of the implications of that for every other religion on earth? Or are they just too self-centered to ever turn their thoughts in that direction?
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:12 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]

or, there's the thread.
posted by Miko at 7:58 PM on November 12, 2015

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