Send in your seconds, see if they can set the record straight
October 4, 2016 5:25 PM   Subscribe

With 35 days to go until the election, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence square off in the vice presidential debate at Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia at 9:00 PM Eastern Time. Print out your Bingo cards and tune into any major network or listen on NPR. Alternately, watch on one of YouTube's channels (NBC, PBS, Fox News, the Washington Post). Twitter will stream Bloomberg. Facebook has ABC and PBS. C-SPAN has its own feed. You can even watch in virtual reality (Gear, Rift, or Vive) via AltspaceVR.

Elaine Quijano of CBS News will be the debate’s sole moderator. The next debate between Trump and Clinton is Sunday, October 9, at 9:00 PM (Eastern.)

If you haven't been following the election threads closely, there's a wiki page that will catch you up on the in-jokes that have developed over time. If you need voter information, lampshade posted a collection of links.

Per mod request, try not to post reactions without context. Remember that people will be trying to make sense of this thread days (or years) from now. If you need to post "OMG!" in real time, use our Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for other ways to connect.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3836 comments total) 85 users marked this as a favorite
 
Keep an eye on Kaine's hands in the opening seconds for the tip-off whether he will be on the offensive tonight: he's Minnesota-born, and just might have put on the foil backstage.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Prediction: Pence slams Kaine's modest tax increases for the skyrocketing unemployment rate under his tenure, conveniently failing to mention that Kaine took office in 2006 and left in 2010. Not that any global economic catastrophe happened at the time or anything.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing? There is going to be a lot to pay attention to!
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 5:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nice work on the title.
posted by drezdn at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


We should include links to the songs the titles reference in the body of the post. 10 Duel Commandments from Hamilton.
posted by fomhar at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump with the Tweeting. Dude! Let your #2 have his evening in the spotlight!
posted by notyou at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing?

Pence: "Can't I have just one thing to myself, Trump? Just one thing? Sorry, I mean Mr. Trump." [Fake]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


National treasure Chuck Tingle (previously, previouslier, previousliest) will also be livetweeting the event, as he did the presidential debate last week.
posted by golwengaud at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, yeah. Trump's Twitter should be amusing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Can't believe I'm seeing this without having to read 600 comments first.
Too bad I'm going to go to bed soon.
posted by MtDewd at 5:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guys. Guys. Today a film maker contacted my husband about a documentary he is making about Roger Ailes and the media. Mr. Freedom thought he was contacted because he is the theatre professor at the local university and the guy wanted some actors to do dramatizations, but turns out that the wonderful century-house we bought in April was the childhood home of Ailes.

I immediately bought two Clinton-Kaine yard signs, because fuck that. Hopefully they will get here in time for them to be proudly displayed in our yard when the film crew shows up to interview us.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [227 favorites]


Keep an eye out for Mike Pence's top moments discussing the Economy and Highlighting Hillary’s scandals.
posted by lantius at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


David Barstow and David Cay Johnston on Democracy Now:

Does Donald Trump Pay Taxes? Records Given to NYT Show How He May Have Avoided Taxes for 18 Years

A Trump Presidency Could End Press Freedom, Say Reporters Threatened for Reporting on His Taxes
posted by homunculus at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump with the Tweeting. Dude! Let your #2 have his evening in the spotlight!

Oh Trump's tweets are all about giving his #2 the spotlight.
posted by nathan_teske at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]


I suspect it will be iPhone tweets all night, with vaguely Trumpy syntax reinforcing whatever talking point Pence just used.
posted by nicepersonality at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So is this iOS Trump who is livetweeting or are we getting the real deal Android?
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


At What Point Will Mike Pence and Tim Kaine Talk About Sex Tapes? Thoughts on the prospect of a VP debate snoozefest.
posted by homunculus at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2016


Guys, I'm glad we are all here for this.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


RNC Declares Mike Pence Winner Of VP Debate Before It Even Starts [real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think, like the first debate, this is something I'll spot-check via the blue and Twitter rather than watching live.

There's basically no chance Kaine or Pence will say or do anything to sway my vote away from Clinton, so I really don't need the stress. But I'm very glad you're all here.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:35 PM on October 4, 2016


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.
posted by holgate at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Well, I'm not giving Twitter the traffic, at least not until I learn whether it's going to be bought out by Google, Disney or Salesforce.com.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I will be very interested to hear both of their positions on Rosie O'Donnell.
posted by mazola at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's probably fair odds on Trump trying to fire Pence over Twitter if Kaine starts crushing him.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


RNC Declares Mike Pence Winner Of VP Debate Before It Even Starts

His strong stance on TBD swung it.
posted by Artw at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


You know how sometimes you don't want to/just aren't in the mood to perform oral on your partner and so you have to really, really talk yourself into it? That's kinda how I feel about this debate.

I live in Indiana so I'm used to Pence's bs but, dammit America. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.

I dunno how you top that, zeitgeist of Election 2016-wise, but I'm sure something will come up in the next month.

Several somethings, probably.
posted by notyou at 5:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Keep an eye out for Mike Pence's top moments discussing the Economy and Highlighting Hillary’s scandals.

I thought telling your opponent your strategy was a bad thing?
posted by mikelieman at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Has anybody actually asked Trump about the iPhone vs Android tweets? I would really love to hear him talk around that story. (Not that candidates are expected to be the only ones on their twitter handle, but it just seems like this is an open secret that he's never admitted to.)
posted by instamatic at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am disappointed in you, Metafilter, not having a debate thread up until over an hour after the GOP declared themselves the winner.
posted by ckape at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [45 favorites]


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.

Wow, so assuming this hasn't fallen apart somehow and they haven't wised up to this obvious tell, it looks like we're in for an interesting night of unfiltered livetweeting.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing? There is going to be a lot to pay attention to!

His whole campaign is so odd. And yet when Trump loses big time in November he'll be whining and complaining that it's a "media conspiracy." I have a friend who's a Trump supporter, and another who's generally a libertarian, and, despite being highly educated, they just complain and complain and complain some more about "the media" ("Trump did nothing illegal by not paying any personal taxes," etc etc).

Trump is a fucking moron. But we need to "understand why people are voting for him."

Bah.
posted by My Dad at 5:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Predictions
1- Tim Kaine may bring back his sarcastic Trump impersonation. (Low)
2- At least one broken microphone related zinger from Kaine (100%)
3- Mike Pence will respond to any question about Donald Trump's statements by suggesting that Hillary calling people deplorables and basement dwellers is a worse.(100%)
posted by humanfont at 5:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump Reportedly Plans to Delegate All Domestic and Foreign Power to his VP

Meet Mike Pence, the Veep Who Could Run Trump’s America
posted by homunculus at 5:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's quite simple, as Trump said in is victory speech people voted for him because lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit.
posted by Artw at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [51 favorites]


("Trump did nothing illegal by not paying any personal taxes," etc etc).

My standard reply is, "He has to prove that, seeing as he's already been busted for illegal donations from the Foundation" and "How did he get paid a half million from the casino company, yet only claim "salary, wages, and tips" of $6,108?
posted by mikelieman at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.
posted by nicepersonality at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is a fucking moron. But we need to "understand why people are voting for him."
Just a guess, but maybe because they are even bigger fucking morons?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


(huffs carburetor cleaner in preparation)
posted by boo_radley at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


There are two boring old white guys in grey suits and red ties on stage droning on and on right now. Did the debate start while I wasn't looking?
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.

Double your Steve, double your Steve
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


huffs carburetor cleaner

I think you meant "hurf durf carburetor cleaner."

/mefi
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hit Mike for being a gutless coward for signing RFRA behind closed doors with a room full of homophobes and religious fanatics. A man should be unashamed to stand in the full light of day and declare his bigotry proudly.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Skipping this one I think. Must remember to ask for Nov. 9th off though.
posted by vrakatar at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2016


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.

Two Steves and no campaign managers, whatever that means.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2016


We should include links to the songs the titles reference in the body of the post. 10 Duel Commandments from Hamilton.

The link should be to the genius page, surely.

[Pence]
Can we agree debates are dumb and immature?

[Kaine]
Sure
But your man has to answer for his words, sir.

[Pence]
With the facts? We both know that’s absurd, sir.

[Kaine]
Hang on, how many men will die because Trump is inexperienced and ruinous?

[Pence]
Okay, so we’re doin’ this
posted by anastasiav at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [72 favorites]


Sad! @realdonaldtrump wants to be President, can't be trusted to tweet.
posted by humanfont at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


After we've toasted Mitheral's dad, charge your glasses again and drink with me, to Vox Dei! For raising Chuck Tingle from an obscure author of niche SF erotica to force to be reckoned with and national treasure!
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


I have some cookie dough ice cream and am prepared for anything.
posted by winna at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


My fantasy opening line for Kaine: "Is your microphone okay, Governor Pence? Everything working good over there?"
posted by uosuaq at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


> "Two Steves and no campaign managers, whatever that means."

It means Beck's out of ideas, is what that means.
posted by boo_radley at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tim Kaine is an anagram for Anti-Mike.

Just saying.
posted by Talez at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [81 favorites]


General election threadery:

The most recent With Her podcast has Bill Clinton as a guest and it's a real doozy. I started crying on the bus.

I just read the article: Barack Obama on Five Days that Shaped a Presidency that was linked in the last thread. Among other things he mentions Rush fucking Limbaugh and it saddens me immensely that he even registers on the President's radar. Like that fucking unelected blowhard has about as much influence as a sitting congressman.

biggest takeaway is as always that I'm so proud and glad that we elected this guy
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


My fantasy opening line for Kaine: "Is your microphone okay, Governor Pence? Everything working good over there?"

"I just want to make sure you're very happy."
posted by contraption at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Popcorn's a poppin'. Scotch is on deck. Let's do this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


That was a funny sneeze.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone in the deathly stillness of C-SPAN's live feed just sneezed, triggering a slow wave of nervous laughter.

JUST AS THE PROPHECY HAD FORESEEN
posted by cortex at 5:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


CSPANs pre-debate coverage can be so dry. Fwiw, debate moderator was introduced, and she gave the audience final instructions like turn off cellphones and no cheering.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Rupert from Survivor also debated Mike Pence.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Enter the Daderdome! Mad Dad vs Glad Dad!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mac Users: If you're running macOS Sierra you can watch any of the YouTube debate streams using the Picture-in-Picture feature in Safari. Right click the YouTube video to get YouTube's custom context menu. Then right click on the video again to get Safari's context menu and select "Enter Picture-in-Picture". Now you can watch the debate in an adjustable popout window while you participate in the thread without having to switch tabs or windows.
posted by guiseroom at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I love C-SPAN.org's minimalist feed. No need for someone to fill up the dead-air.
posted by mikelieman at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


CSPANs pre-debate coverage can be so dry. Fwiw, debate moderator was introduced, and she gave the audience final instructions like turn off cellphones and no cheering.

This is precisely why I love C-SPAN.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I got a shot of rye and a can of cider all ready for this. And reruns of Elementary on the TV because there's no way I'm strong enough to watch this except by the words you all type here.
posted by rtha at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mad Dad vs Glad Dad!

Dad vs. Coach.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought the debate had started while I was watching the flash and the coverage was just that boring. Guess not.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016


OK maybe just a little but there is not enough booze in the house for this and SHIELD is on later. Drunk History too. And I haven't even rinsed off today.
posted by vrakatar at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


popcorn's a poppin' and the power's down / I'd like to try somethin' but I'm so far from town / the sun keeps shinin' and the north wind keeps pickin' up speed / gonna forget about myself for a while, go out and see what others need
posted by uosuaq at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


A shot? I picked up a fresh jug of Wild Turkey 101.
posted by mikelieman at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I gave an involuntary whimper when I saw that there was another election thread.

Probably best not too think too deeply on that.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


only 35 years to go
posted by you're a kitty! at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Pence looks like a dad, but the kind of dad who disowned a gay kid and didn't list him as a survivor in his grandmother's obituary
posted by Countess Elena at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [70 favorites]


Kick some ass Timmy!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Once again, tie colors are reversed from party affiliations.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm at a viewing event with a friend and a tequila mule. Fingers crossed.
posted by Superplin at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016


@realDonaldTrump
Here we go - Enjoy!

Oooh sent from Android.
posted by sporkwort at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hopefully they control the audience better this time- the moderator just said the crowd was "enthusiastic".
posted by winna at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016


How to the titles work? Does Senator outrank Governor, thus Senator Kaine? Or is it the most recent position held?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


NBC coverage threw that accidental Pence win screen shot up and said "and the GOP has already named Pence the winner of this debate, no surprise there."
posted by phunniemee at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Opening with a callout to Lloyd Bentsen...
posted by mikelieman at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Reporting in from toddler bedtime: current mood: A frog. She is ribbiting and will not consider slumber. Updates appreciated.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


The first question is "what equips you to be president if the unexpected happened".
posted by winna at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016


What is Tim's lapel pin?
posted by sweetmarie at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


DAD! ANSWER THE GOD DAMN QUESTION! TELL US ABOUT YOU!
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Look at the camera, Tim.
posted by robstercraw at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Kaine looking off center in the split screen? It's off putting
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


How to the titles work? Does Senator outrank Governor, thus Senator Kaine? Or is it the most recent position held?

I believe proper form is current title if one is held, else the highest previous title.
posted by jammer at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Come on Kaine talk about yooooooooou.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


It's definitely Trump on the twitters and not his campaign.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


He's looking at the moderator, T.D. Strange.
posted by ChrisR at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm in a hotel room without a minibar. What do I do????
posted by Westringia F. at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence has this oddly pained look about his face. I don't mean in this moment, I mean in general. I think I've seen alt-right losers make this comparison before: he looks like the bodyguard from Jonny Quest crossed with a raisin.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Tim's lapel pin is one of his son's military deployment pins.
posted by humanfont at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


PENCE: It's great to be here -
ME: SNOOZE ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz
posted by melissasaurus at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow, Pence doesn't move his face much. He's like one of those puppets where the mouth is a filmed person's mouth.
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence looks like the pissed off general/police captain from an 80's action film.

"You're out of control, McBain! You think the rules don't apply to you!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


FOURTH WALL DOWN. MAN THE BARRICADES.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What is Tim's lapel pin?

I believe it's a Blue Star flag.
posted by phunniemee at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence seems really nervous.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine didn't answer the question at all in any respect.
posted by winna at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Do they have the split screens reversed?
posted by mikelieman at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


This debate is too normal. It's like bizarro world compared to the last one. This is the year normal is bizarre.
posted by dis_integration at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


The words in the background are distracting.
posted by clavdivs at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016


They sound exactly the same right now.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Pence gets the name of the host wrong right off the bat. It's Longwood University, not Norwood.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


A war on coal? Yes, that's what I think of for the last 7.5 years . . .
posted by jeremias at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence has low energy.
posted by homunculus at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence is talking doom and gloom and he sounds about as mournful as a man at his dad's funeral when he knows there's no money in the will.
posted by winna at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kaine: This is great!

Pence: Everything is scary and sucks.
posted by vverse23 at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence seems sedate and disturbingly sane. It's all that radio experience.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "I never thought I'd have a chance to be governor...let alone sitting a table like this"

That's because it's a weird-ass table for three people to sit awkwardly without looking at each other.
posted by zachlipton at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> The words in the background are distracting

Especially the "evils" over Kaine's shoulder.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


I've been calling him Mike Pinch, since his expression always looks like someone is giving him a charley horse under the table.
posted by mochapickle at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tim Kaine taking pages of notes already!
posted by sweetmarie at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


The words in the background are distracting.

They're a spell that will vanquish Trump, if only we can read them all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


War on coal? Did Pence just say that?
posted by Yowser at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence has low energy.

My money's on Botox. Lots and lots of it.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Really? Emails and Clinton foundation? First non-introductory question?
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence's last communication from the campaign: "Pence! Be humble! Be the humblest humble that ever humbled! BUT NOT MORE HUMBLE THAN ME!!"

Pence: "Aw, shucks? On it?"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


There are less than 30k coal jobs in Pennsylvania, and no significant amount in any other swing state.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine seems to be taking copious notes.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


Went out for smoke break so I'm a few minutes behind this is weird.
posted by vrakatar at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016


If Pence wants to boast about his immigrant father, I look forward to him squirming to explain his attempts to keep immigrants out of his state.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's remember folks, Pence is a really solid politician which is why he won all those votes and collected all those donations during the primaries.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


They just flipped the split screen. Way to go Technical Director!
posted by mikelieman at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016


Norwood University?
posted by klangklangston at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The number 4 google image search result I get for "service star pin" is Tim Kaine.
posted by ckape at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


For some reason Pence is reminding me of Odo from DS9.

(Except I'd much rather elect Odo as VP)

another DS9 reference, relevant to this election season
posted by k8bot at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine seems to be taking copious notes.

All work and no play makes Tim a dull boy...
posted by mikelieman at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Tim's lapel pin is one of his son's military deployment pins.

Correct, and the GOP has already had to apologize for mocking him for wearing it.
posted by peeedro at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]



"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"

Such a dumb question
posted by zutalors! at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You have said that Donald Trump is thoughtful, considerate, and steady..."

He has? We're gonna need a drug test.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is on the attack, talking about how Trump is so terrible. Does not address the question.

Moderator hammers Pence on Trump being erratic.
posted by winna at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016


whoa mike pence just heard about that "rapists and murderers" thing not sure he believes it
posted by klangklangston at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Dictate, evil, disposed"
Kaines getting all the good background material.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


Look out you guys! "The Middle East is literally spinning out of control!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Thank you for your question ,let me ignore it and tell you why Hillary Clinton is awful."
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]



"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"

Such a dumb question

IS IT VAMPIRES
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


NO DAD! DAD! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
posted by Talez at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh snap, Kaine hitting back on Russia and Putin.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
posted by leotrotsky at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


> Pence is talking doom and gloom and he sounds about as mournful as a man at his dad's funeral woman at a fetus's funeral when he knows there's no money in the will.
posted by homunculus at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Strictly speaking, the entire earth is spinning beyond our control.
posted by ckape at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Kaine interrupting first...
posted by Sublimity at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


LET US NOW PIVOT TO THE REAL CANDIDATES

LET THE PROXY DEBATE COMMENCE

*GONG SOUND FOLLOWED BY STAR TREK FIGHT MUSIC AT HALF SPEED*
posted by Panjandrum at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


OH SHIT PENCE IS AGAINST INSULTS MUST BE AWKWARD
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why are you interrupting him? Please stop ;_;

STOP TRYING TO SNIPE!
posted by Talez at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"We'll get to Russia in just a moment. We do have that coming up here."

OH SNAP
posted by My Dad at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016


Don't interrupt him, Kaine! That is not a good look.
posted by lydhre at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence: the world is LITERALLY spinning out of control. Mass dizziness does explain a lot.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


OH YES, PLEASE TALK ABOUT FOUNDATIONS!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sarcastic Kaine is the best Kaine
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's official, Mike Pence is Frozen Caveman Lawyer.

"I'm a simple man who one day dreams of occupying the White House" [fake]
posted by Yowser at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to settle down.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine looks like he's on the Kremlin wall jeering the rocket trucks.
posted by clavdivs at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You are Donald Trump's apprentice."

Thanks Dad!
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Such a dumb question

For posterity: I do not do fake quotes and when quoting I am not necessarily endorsing the question/comment being reported.
posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh! OBL! Knife Knife Knife!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


QUIJANO: Pence, why do 65% of Americans think Trump doesn't have have the temperament for the job?
PENCE: The Clinton-Kaine campaign is about insults. People don't think Hillary is trustworthy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine is raring to go.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow I'm afraid Pence is the more sane sounding candidate with Trump's talking points/demagoguery we've been fearing...
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently it's supposed to be a discussion and interruptions are part of the format?
posted by klarck at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine needs to settle down.

He is being a bit rude.
posted by Flashman at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence is coming off as way more reasonable which is horrifying.
posted by winna at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kaine's interruptions are not working and getting annoying. WTF.
posted by homunculus at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


This moderator didnt realize what she was in for with all of this crosstalk
posted by sweetmarie at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016


Not sure about Kaine's interruption strategy. But note that Pence tried to answer the "why don't people trust Donald Trump" question with "Here's why people don't trust Hillary Clinton" which WTF.
posted by dnash at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


This "discussion format" is a mess. I can't follow either of them.
posted by mochapickle at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


This is going to be a very fighty 90 minutes.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Gentlemen, let's move on to ignoring the questions about the economy.
posted by cortex at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [53 favorites]


Pence is coming off much better at this point, sorry to say.
posted by Rumple at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pitiful Pence has zero charisma! How did this guy make it this far? Sad!
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Looks like Trump can't do anything but retweet some ass-kissing from his fans. Surely he has policy rebuttals to make?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016



Such a dumb question

For posterity: I do not do fake quotes and when quoting I am not necessarily endorsing the question/comment being reported

wow, ok. for the record: I was responding to the thing I also heard and thought that question was dumb and did not claim or say you made up anything or agreed with anything.
posted by zutalors! at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


what's with the creepy horn-rim glasses dude who is lurking in the shadows just beyond the moderator's right elbow
is it evil dad
is evil dad in the daderdome
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


:hides under desk:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Oh my god, I am cringing. The cross-talking and interruption and "no, Mom said it's my turn!" are very uncomfortable to watch.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Pence tried to answer the "why don't people trust Donald Trump" question with "Here's why people don't trust Hillary Clinton" which WTF.

It sounded like Kane did the same thing when asked about Hillary.
posted by upplepop at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"War on coal" for the second time
posted by Sublimity at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Tax increases cause unemployment! CALLED IT.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The state of Indiana has no services. ;.; that's why is budget is balanced.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, people are struggling much more now that they have health insurance. :eye roll:
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016


The moderator (Elaine Quijano) is worse off than Lester Holt - she's getting talked over relentlessly.
posted by winna at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is going to be a very fighty 90 minutes.

"Two Men Enter - One man leaves"
posted by mikelieman at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Need to cut Pence's mike.
posted by klangklangston at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine needs to back off the Trump attacks honestly, Pence is his own horrible monster and their policies should give him plenty of room to nail Pence to the wall on substance. Trump attacks should be the icing here, not the whole meal.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"War on coal" count: 3
posted by Sublimity at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, noticed Pence is really avoiding talking about Trump
posted by annsunny at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Two red faced white dudes shouting at each other, yay
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Josh Marshall says "9:10 PM: I laugh at Trump mic truthers. But Pence's mic actually sounds a bit off, echoey."

I heard it too. It sounds like Pence was talking so quietly that his mic was on the edge of feeding back.
posted by zachlipton at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Dude: stop trying make "War on Coal" happen.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think Pence is trying to ride that War on Coal train all the way to Pennsylvania.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Kaine may be on brow roids
posted by klangklangston at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think Kaine doesn't care about winning this. He cares about getting under Trump's skin. He's not thinking about the Veep debate, he's thinking about the next Presidential debate.
posted by asteria at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [46 favorites]


Pence: War on War on Coal!
posted by Talez at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016


wow, ok. for the record: I was responding to the thing I also heard and thought that question was dumb and did not claim or say you made up anything or agreed with anything.

I didn't think you did? I was just making sure that it was clear that if I stick it in quotes it's what I heard, that's all.
posted by winna at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine is Clinton's Interruption Translator.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Oh, he was so proud of the "You're hired President"/"YOu're fired President"
posted by Sublimity at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence coming off way more calm than Kaine - he's actually a professional politician, so when Trump campaign advisers were like "SO BASICALLY: All you have to do is not yell and we will look good", he is able to actually follow the strategy unlike Giant Orange Demon Child-Man.
posted by windbox at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Do you want a 'you're hired' President in Hillary Clinton, or a 'you're fired' candidate in Donald Trump?"

Why do they use these cheesy scripted lines? They're...not good.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


From Pennsylvania, still think Pence's "War on Coal" is crap.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


We're fighting a war on coal in Centralia, PA right now.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


So, noticed Pence is really avoiding talking about Trump

I was actually thinking that a risky gambit for Kaine to take would be to not mention Trump at all during the debate, something that could potentially drive Trump crazy.
posted by drezdn at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Kaine doesn't care about winning this. He cares about getting under Trump's skin.

You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016


Tim calmed down let Mike have his say, and is rolling "Ironworking and welding..."
posted by mikelieman at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


C'mon, everybody in a state that touches Indiana knows that calling it a "state that works" is delusional.
posted by klangklangston at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


gotta say i'm pretty disappointed with kaine so far.
posted by modernnomad at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine's righteous indignation comes across as a bit manic, sadly.

Pence benefits from not having principles, or a soul.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kaine needs to own being a good running mate for Clinton
posted by klangklangston at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is right about the pre-done lines. Theyr'e dumb. Stop using them.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Kaine is doing great and is on message, no idea what the manic stuff is about, really.
posted by zutalors! at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


That audible scoff and sad head shake from Pence seems far worse to me than Gore's sighs sixteen years ago.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Pence benefits from not having principles, or a soul."

Pence is a talk radio star and doing a talk radio star turn.
posted by klangklangston at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

Trump is livetweeting this.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ooh she's bringing up the tax returns!
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

He's live tweeting it.
posted by dis_integration at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


As someone who has to look at Indiana advertising in Illinois, Pence is way too proud of that "State that works" line. It's what, 3, 4 years old at this point?

Also agree that Pence's role to reign in Trump would be accomplished by way of putting Trump to sleep with his voice. (Maybe that's why Trump's awake at 3am?)
posted by Lykosidae at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


But people catch on to cheesy sayings abs remember. Though, owch Pence dismissal.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

Yes. I think if people are talking about him on TV he's going to watch it.
posted by dilaudid at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence calling him out on "pre-done lines" like you're hired/ you're fired instead of answering about Trump not paying taxes
posted by sweetmarie at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


OMG Tim calm down.
posted by charred husk at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence remarks that the Clinton/Kaine camp uses a lot of "pre-done" lines.
posted by winna at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


"Honestly, you can roll out the numbers, but people know differently!"
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence isn't going to answer a single question tonight. Kaine needs to call him on it.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


C'mon, everybody in a state that touches Indiana knows that calling it a "state that works" is delusional.

No need to attack the Hoosier state; it did nothing to you.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence calls Kaine out for using "predone lines" like you're hired/you're fired. And he's kinda right. Foo.
posted by mochapickle at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


MOD: Pence, do you think it's fair that Trump skipped out on taxes for many years?
PENCE: Lemme talk about the C/K plan for more taxes.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence accusing Kaine of spitting writtens kinda stinks of the whole "overprepared" garbage from the last debate.
posted by penduluum at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence said "Scranton" and Diamond Joe didn't appear. I wonder if the Biden Signal is down.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


"Senator Kaine you can roll out numbers and facts and reality all you want..."
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"You can roll out the numbers and the sunny side..."
posted by mikelieman at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The interrupting is not a good look, just annoyed at everyone.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


It did nothing for anyone that's the problem.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence, you've done nothing but host a radio show and run for public office. YOU ARE A CAREER PUBLIC SERVANT.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


TRUMP FACED SOME PRETTY TOUGH TIMES
rly Pence????
posted by k8bot at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Kaine is off to a rough start. I have the feeling that he prepped to be more aggressive than he usually would be, and it's just not working. Pence is selling the Trump campaign very well so far. I was expecting better from Kaine.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Tim: "How do you know that?"
posted by mikelieman at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently interrupting women is the theme of the debates this year.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]



We're fighting a war on coal in Centralia, PA right now.

Yo, the coal is totes winning
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump is livetweeting this.

Lol. Does anyone know if it's customary for him to use little heart emojis when he talks about Pence?
posted by triggerfinger at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


And then Pence throws out a "god bless you" on Kaine/taxes. Like the southern god bless you, meaning you are so naive. Still not answering the question, though.
posted by mochapickle at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there something about the podium on the left of the moderator that leads to obnoxious interruptions?
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"No need to attack the Hoosier state; it did nothing to you."

Grew up in Michigan; mom's family is all from Indiana.

It did plenty.
posted by klangklangston at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


This format is really not working for me,and I may just turn it off and catch up from you guys. I just can't handle the cross talk.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


Every time Pence says something about Trump being a businessman, not a politician, I want Kaine to ask him, "You're a politician, Gov. Pence, do you think Donald Trump is more qualified to be president than you are?"
posted by Panjandrum at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


This is a bit train wrecky.
posted by xyzzy at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump hit hard times you say?
posted by bonje at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

Not only is he watching, he's live-tweeting it as he announced earlier.
posted by asteria at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


(Okay, there isn't technically a podium, but you get my point.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano tries to force Pence to address the tax returns. Pence runs to talking about how Trump created jobs and makes billions.

Kaine says that if we pay our taxes and Trump thinks it's smart not to pay them, what does that make those of us who pay our taxes?
posted by winna at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


OH NO WE WANNA TALK ABOUT PREDONE LINES

SNIFF
posted by klangklangston at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I expected Kaine to be as interesting as an unenthusiastic handjob. I did not expect him to talk over Pence and look so fired up. I hope he settles down some.
posted by tryniti at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's weird to see a moderator, you know, actually moderating.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Seriously. The moderator needs to be able to pan the mics one way or the other.
posted by mikelieman at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hmm. Pence is better at this. Partly through obfuscation, careful omission, and outright lies, but he's coming across as smoother and more confident. I'm hoping Kaine starts warming up.
posted by figurant at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump's allegedly livetweeting this, but so far he's just been retweeting favorable reactions to Pence. No telling if he's actually watching the debate rather than just staring at his phone.
posted by painquale at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah Elaine! You tell them to stay in line and not talk over each over!
posted by Talez at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


PEOPLE IN FORT WAYNE KNOW DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU'RE FUCKING THEM
posted by klangklangston at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh darn I just saw it's a retweet. I was SO HOPING that Trump had started using emojis!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016


This is difficult to watch. Difficult to watch Pence politic. Difficult to see Kaine get furious.
posted by Oyéah at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I never would have guessed that it was the VP debate that I wouldn't be able to get through.
posted by diogenes at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


This format is a fucking disaster and I think the moderator just realized that.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


I take back what I said. Pence has killer, Trump-tier facial expressions. That's some great sturgeon face he just made.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh thank god, the moderator told them to quiet down.

Oh jesus christ, the moderator just had to tell them to quiet down in the same tone of voice as my teacher mom, except her kids listen the first or second time.

Don't talk over the moderator, Kaine. I have no expectations for Pence.
posted by neonrev at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


The "pre-done" lines thing is a brilliant way to contrast Trump's strength (as his base sees it) that he's "real" and "a Washington outsider" to Hillary's perceived weakness, that she's "not natural, scripted, and a politician."
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: "[Trump] is going to release his taxes."

WTF dipshit, have you paid any attention to your running mate at all? No he's not.
posted by dnash at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


This debate really needs a talking pillow for them to pass back and forth. Or a moderator to moderate.
posted by peeedro at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence thinks he's Reagan with his terribad "there they go again" line.
posted by dis_integration at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine should have responded to "There they go again" with "Talk about your pre-done lines."

Come on, think on your feet.
posted by Justinian at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"has no discernible face."

Huh, it's the silver skull cap and blue tie. Red boxers and he's a bomb pop.
posted by clavdivs at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good grief, Paine just said, "There you go again." How old is that call-back? Saint Reagan?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mike, you can't say "this is what this campaign is really about" to every question. You sound like a....

...oh. Carry on!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Or just put them in separate boxes and cut off their mics when it's not their turn to talk.
posted by dilaudid at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ohh Race Relations!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


What I'm seeing is an animated, excited Kaine and a dull, robotic Pence. I get the idea that he is controlled but honestly he comes across as a low energy speaker without much passion.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wish Kaine had hit back Donald creating jobs by pointing out he didn't actually pay for them.
posted by ckape at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


PENCE! You can't complain about pre-planned canned lines, then use one that is literally older than I am!
posted by Panjandrum at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes Kaine! Make the evil replicant defend his deplorable record.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


I already thought Clinton did well last debate, but this is really driving that point home.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Something about Pence makes me really, really, uncomfortable.
posted by Biblio at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Justinian, I think he tried to say something about that "there you go again" but he got steamrolled.

Quijano's getting irritated, I think.
posted by winna at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine is coming off as alarmingly combative. I am rethinking my decision to stay home in lieu of going to Best Bar In the World.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I tuned in a little late -- is this format going to be the whole 90 minutes?
posted by mochapickle at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tim, slow the fuck down! Pop a beta blocker or something!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Part of the problem is squeezing 9 segments into 90 minutes. Like holy shit. Nobody can really go into detail of anything.
posted by Talez at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yah, but the part where Cthulhu tore through the desk ate their faces was pretty good, tho.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is really fighting his resting scowl
posted by ckape at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


(And it's a shame, because I really like Elaine's questions. Set up like a more traditional debate, this session would be a lot more fruitful.)
posted by mochapickle at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


There should be time limits. This is a mess. It's making me feel incredibly stressed. This election is taking five years off my life in pure anxiety.
posted by prefpara at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Pence's scowl at "community policing"... Did I imagine that? He already looks so checked out of what Kaine is saying.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh God my election dread is setting in again
posted by mynameisluka at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine’s strategy is essentially to be a suicide-bomber to prevent this debate from making news. It’s awful to watch.
posted by gerryblog at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I'm seeing is an animated, excited Kaine and a dull, robotic Pence. I get the idea that he is controlled but honestly he comes across as a low energy speaker without much passion.

I'm seeing a calm and steady Pence versus a wound-up and combative Kaine. I don't like it, but that's how it's coming across.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence gave away the gave on entitlement reform, slashing Social Security is still the goal no matter what Trump says.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine just said we ask too much of police and then talked about how we need to make them responsible for engaging with the community. Both things are true, but he skipped the part about what we need them to stop doing so they can focus on that.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cash money says if Kaine calls out Pence for being a pod person, Pence will rise to his feet and point and make that shrieking sound like Donald Sutherland at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kaine talks about the importance of community policing versus militarized models and hits Trump's advocacy of stop and frisk.
posted by winna at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know this moderator. Is there any chance she'll start yelling at them if they don't shape up?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got a pun I don't know how to use

six pence none the richer

just putting it out there
posted by klangklangston at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Pence's use of Botox has created an uncanny valley.
posted by humanfont at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't think Kaine is combative, I think he's energetic. Pence is a litch.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't think Kaine's debate coach warned him that Pence might try to tell some fibs.
posted by klarck at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gun control makes police safer, I wish more people would make this point. Cops HATE all the fucking guns on the street.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


My sharp pundit commentary: Pence is creeping me out with conservative robot grandpa face, but Kaine is also kind of coming off as kooky ranty argumentative uncle, and he needs to be playing warm goofy liberal dad.
posted by windbox at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"at the risk of agreeing with you"
posted by Sublimity at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is a lot better when he's talking about himself and his accomplishments, not trying to be Clinton's cheerleader. I hope he keeps with that tack.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guys I'm not sure what you're watching but you need to calm down. Kaine is doing *great* in the debate I'm watching, and Pence is just coming off as low energy. Sad.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence is so more polished and easier to understand.

Sigh.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Man, need to have a single mic on at a time.
posted by klangklangston at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine killing it on gun control with Virginia Tech stories, came off very empathetic. Followed by Pence listing minorities and stammering on how to talk about law and order
posted by sweetmarie at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


@ RealDonaldJTrump: "@Susiesentinel: #pence is so much more likeable than Kaine

Pence comes across as a frozen mackerel.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got a pun I don't know how to use
six pence none the richer
just putting it out there

Over on chat: Pence is such a lightweight you could have five more of him and still be none the richer.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Pence looks like a freaking vampire elder.

He says police officers are the best of us which just no.
posted by winna at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump just retweeted some jamoke saying Kaine "looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies". You know every time I think I'm done being surprised how adolescent he is -
posted by Countess Elena at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wow, Pence saying the charges of implicit systematic racism in police depts. has got to stop. Wow wow wow
posted by k8bot at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


The moderator has butchered or outright misrepresented every budget question so far
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is denying institutional racism?!
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]



Guys I'm not sure what you're watching but you need to calm down. Kaine is doing *great* in the debate I'm watching, and Pence is just coming off as low energy. Sad.

I'm watching what you're watching!! I think Kaine is doing great. He's getting a lot of the talking points out that Clinton can't because people focus on her unfavorables and emails.

Also, Pence talked up not "rehearsing" and then trotted out Reagan's "there you go again."
posted by zutalors! at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes, Governor Pence, there is implicit bias in everything. That's actually a thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


How is Dernald going to react if the general opinion following the debate is that the Republicans have the wrong candidate at the top of the ticket?
posted by DanSachs at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump (retweet): Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies. [real]
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence sneakily trying to equate implicit bias with institutional racism. Do I need to Google the term for this guy?
posted by blurker at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


There was something in there about the economy. Pence tried to claim it's worse now than when Obama started. Like, huh? Obama started during the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, he saved us from actually having another Great Depression, Wall Street is hitting record levels again - but somehow things are "worse" now?? And then Kaine cited some statistic to counter, and Pence went "oh, you can read off numbers..." - [headdesk.] So you can list off all the facts of what's actually happening, but it's all wrong somehow. UGH.
posted by dnash at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence dumbstruck on the idea of widespread implicit bias. He say quit name calling police after tragedy
posted by sweetmarie at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


klangklangston: six pence none the richer


Trump/Pence: none the winner, I hope.
posted by emelenjr at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Wow, Pence saying the charges of implicit systematic racism in police depts. has got to stop. Wow wow wow

Don't you know? The Supreme Court said the justice system couldn't possibly contain systemic racism back in 1987!
posted by Talez at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chill y'all. Pence is dull af. Better if Aggro Kaine is what people are talking about after this.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Why is the moderator letting Pence steamroll?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016


100% Mike Pence is running for President right now and not Trump's running mate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Mike Pence doesn't know what systemic bias actually is, which is cool.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Wow, after all that, the moderator's followup was actually on implicit bias
posted by klarck at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Pence just actually do the I have a Black friend?
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Aggro Kaine: DAD IS MAD
posted by k8bot at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I dunno about puns, but DadFreedom persists in pretending that he hears the phrase "my pants" any time anyone says Mike Pence.

"Why does Donald Trump want my pants?"
"What are my pants doing in Florida?"

He always laughs at his own joke after saying it. It's driving my mom bananas.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [51 favorites]


HEY GANG, I DON'T THINK PENCE IS REALLY FRIENDS WITH SENATOR SCOTT.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


Pence says (black) Senator Scott is a close friend. Kaine gives squint eyes and slight head shake.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"I am really really glad these two dudes are not running against each other at the top of the ticket"

Uh I am a traveler from the future and
posted by klangklangston at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


He probably likes his bias explicit.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


(deep breaths) Okay, I think Kaine is calming down a bit. This is helping.

At the very least it is allowing people to HEAR Pence dig himself a hole over the systemic racism thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


ugh seriously pivoting to crime whenever anyone talks about black people is making me want to scream in all these debates
posted by zutalors! at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [40 favorites]


Trump (retweet): Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies. [real]

Projection again, as Rudy did his Penguin imitation earlier today.
posted by drezdn at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump Mirror!

@RealDonaldJTrump: "@carol_lcnixon67: @realDonaldTrump Kaine says Hillary and he have plans. She could care less what Kaine thinks."


posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


This format is a mess.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, pin that Trump to him!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Let me take your question about law enforcement as an opportunity to mention every gross thing Trump has every said!"
posted by Justinian at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The thing that Pence is doing that is really working is he just doesn't shut up and he keeps talking softly on and on and it might be low energy but it's reading as reasonable.

It's not, it's horrifying, but it reads that way.
posted by winna at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


this format has always been this way?
posted by zutalors! at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016


I wonder how many people are hate-tweeting Patrick Kane or Hunter Pence right now.
posted by SisterHavana at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine needs to focus on just repeating what Trump has said/done

The crosstalk/arguing/bickering is just bad
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think someone gave Kaine a signal to cut down on the interrupts. He's coming across way better now.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"You just heard Senator Kaine reject stop-and-frisk, but I think.." WTF. It's rejected because it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It's the COURTS that rejected it, and rightly so.
posted by dnash at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Shorter Pence: "Boy, crime, I just don't know."
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


Aw, dang, Kaine, let the moderator press Pence on the question about Scott. I mean, the stop and frisk thing is bullshit too but the rope was spooling out.
posted by cortex at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine's not doing so bad.
posted by angrybear at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think three times so far the moderator has said "but Governer Pence, the question was about X".

Not a great look for Pence if she keeps pressing.
posted by fomhar at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wish the Clinton campaign would explain implicit bias better, so that the "it's an African American officer" thing would die. Of course, that's from a fantasy world where white people aren't stupid.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


why doesn't this stage have a timeout corner?
posted by indubitable at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The questions are coming way too fast for this to be a good debate. It's just quick soundbites of policy, kurffuffling and repeat.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mic drop by Tim Kaine on the police and respect issue. I think he's starting to find his feet.
posted by humanfont at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kaine: If you want to have a society of respect through law enforcement, you can't have someone at the top who insults minorities, women, POWs, etc.

Fantastic reponse. I hope that hit home.
posted by mochapickle at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [48 favorites]


30 minutes in, and Trump has already retweeted an account that references "white genocide" (@nycmia) --@danprimack
posted by zachlipton at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm actually really hoping that all this talk of implicit bias will cause the media (do you hear me, media? I know some of you are reading) to talk more about what implicit bias is. Because it's actually a really eye-opening way to discuss this stuff, and I've heard it done in ways that don't put people on the defensive.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


MAKE THE POINT that THESE ARE DONALD TRUMP'S WORDS!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016


Okay, I think Kaine is calming down a bit. This is helping.

It's like someone had been coaching him to try and up their approval rating in the toxic masculinity demographic.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think the reason some people think Kaine isn't doing so great is that they are comparing it to a debate with Donald Trump. If you compare a debate to the debate with Donald Trump it's always going to look like you're losing because Donald Trump is so terrible.
posted by Justinian at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is denying institutional racism?!

Yes, because Pence is the epitome of the white, conservative, anti-science, ultra-religious person who has never had to face bias because of his race, gender, religion, or literally anything else. It's a worldview that explicitly sees events as rooted in personal ethos, allowing no room for cultural biases or institutional inertia. Concepts like "implicit bias" and "institutional racism" are not just outside that discourse, they are anathema to that worldview. They live in a just world, which is confirmed by their own blinkered experiences.

That said, I really hope the debate keeps focusing on the issues that shows Pence as the vile, dismissive, racist, sexist, and classist monster that he is. I already know Trump is a pile of fetid shit, I want the rest of the country to get a good whiff of Pence as well.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.

He's surrounded by his team watching him. Because what America looks for in a President is the need for constant adult supervision.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hey Mike, does Donald Trump have a plan?

I only ask because between criticizing the Dems for preprepared lines, and saying "War of Coal" and "insult driven campaign," you've said so only like eight times, so I'm not sure.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep, I maaaaay not be able to watch this. Hopefully when I wake up in the morning, Trump will have tweeted out a picture of a pile of Dexadrine or something and we can all act like this never happened.
posted by penduluum at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


MOD: Pence, what would you say to the millions of undocumented immigrants who have *not* committed awful crimes?
PENCE: Trump has a plan to block illegal immigration and remove criminal aliens. After that's done, we'll deal with the rest of them.
Also, how dare Kaine claim we have an insult-driven campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.

Turing? Or Voight-Kampff?
posted by Brainy at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Pence bringing up the basket of deplorables? Also why is he repeating the lie of Hillary calling them unamerican (jk I know why).
posted by Lykosidae at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016


I wonder how many people are hate-tweeting Patrick Kane or Hunter Pence right now.

Hunter Pence was in the Full House revival, he deserves whatever he gets.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence: "We are going to end illegal immigration for once and forever" (paraphrased)

"Did you just hear that?! Ours is the campaign of insults?!" oh please Pence, nobody is buying your faux indignation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorables."
posted by winna at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"The thing that Pence is doing that is really working is he just doesn't shut up and he keeps talking softly on and on and it might be low energy but it's reading as reasonable."

Yeah, this is talk radio performance. Basically, one of the tricks to seeming to "win" political radio arguments is to just keep talking with a reasonable tone no matter what your opponent is saying in just this endless verbal filibuster because people can't actually fact check what you're saying, they're just getting a calm set of apparently reasonable things from one side.
posted by klangklangston at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


I thought the "So now we're even" line was actually pretty good.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's moderating the hell out of those two guys...
posted by mikelieman at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"This is highly unconventional, but Handsome Joe Biden will be tagging in for Kaine for the last 30 minutes of the debate."
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


Pence is and has always been a better candidate than Trump. Also my linoleum.
posted by corb at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


""Did you just hear that?! Ours is the campaign of insults?!" oh please Pence, nobody is buying your faux indignation."

GAMBLING?! AT RICK'S?
posted by klangklangston at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ugh you guys, this is not pleasant to watch at all.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Thank you Kaine for pointing out that Trump will NEVER apologize for anything: insults, birtherism, etc. Pence can shake his head all he wants but that's the truth.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I'm free to say what I want and if you don't like it, get out! But don't you dare call me a word that makes me use the dictionary!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Since I started watching seems like Kaine is fine. Shout out to the moderator for letting them talk.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence: "If Donald Trump had said all the things you said he said in the way he said you said them..."

I can't believe that this will not overtake "known knowns and known unknowns."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorable."

I just completely lost my mind at that. Completely. Possibly the most Bizarro-World thing I've ever heard.
posted by dnash at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


I know ricochet biscuit that was a convoluted phrasing indeed!
posted by winna at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2016


okay, the feed i was watching froze, so i took that as my cue to stop watching.
posted by palomar at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


I think Timmy got his groove back a little bit.

The moderator is solidly posing the questions, but Pence is just really good at ducking them.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


'They are deplorable you simpering pustule. Some number less than half but definitely double digits are deplorable hate driven fuckwads and we all know it. Racist sexist xenophobic shitbag assholes and we don't need to dance around it. Normalize THAT you pinch faced traitor to all that is good and noble of the human spirit. '
posted by ian1977 at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


They are going to BUILD A WALL IN THE AIR. I want to see the specs for the levitating border wall.
posted by k8bot at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


UNDERGROUND ENFORCEMENT
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to take a page from Clinton's book and stop talking long enough to let Pence hang himself with his own rope. I've caught a couple of times now where Pence was about to really step in it but Kaine talked right over him.
posted by timestep at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Possibly the most Bizarro-World thing I've ever heard.

Genuinely Bilbosian.
posted by cortex at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorable."

Wait, is that really a quote? I'm just following along here, my husband and I will watch the debate later.
posted by KathrynT at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


"If he did what you said did he would have done it — why are you dragging this campaign into the mud?"
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


This is painful to watch. Not fun at all.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Uhh, Pence knows all those things are on tape, right?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


And floating walls above ground too folks
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: "...a mountain range of debt?"

I'm... not sure that's a, uh, metaphorical thing.
posted by rp at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think I'd die if I were Kaine because Pence is saying something objectionable every 10 seconds and not responding to it immediately would probably drive me crazy.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


> THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS

AND IN THE AIR!
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dammit Tim, stop letting him filibuster you.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016


If Kaine would just bust out some Hamilton references in Spanish right now (possibly something about immigrants getting the job done) I would love life for a short amount of time.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


tim you need to ask where the money is going to come from for this giant reform and deportation process.
posted by winna at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS
AND in the air!

I think what he means is that Donald Trump has reached 11th level and can now cast Summon Monster VI to call greater elementals.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


As if this weren't enough of a circus, Libertarian VP candidate Weld is livetweeting along with the debate, like a kid in the backseat, interjecting.
posted by mochapickle at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uhh, Pence knows all those things are on tape, right?

Tim reminded him.
posted by mikelieman at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh. I ate all mu popcorn. Quick run to the kitchen to grab cookies.

@RealDonaldJTrump "@GeeVeeM: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Pence is so prepared! He did his homework to outperform Kaine."

Oh good, Kaine has just pointed out that both of their parents are immigrants.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, is that really a quote?

I might not have gotten all the bits of it but it's what I heard, yes.
posted by winna at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016


The questions are fairly milquetoast, but the followups are pretty tough.
posted by klarck at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016


Actually the basket of deplorable is making inroads on my #NeverTrump people. No one has caved yet, but there's a lot of anger. That's probably why Pence is hitting it. Remember, all of Hillary's numbers are counting 5-10% of Republicans not voting for the Republican.
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I totally see Trump getting jealous of Pence after this debate
posted by Tarumba at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh boy, the let's kill muslims section of the debate.
posted by dis_integration at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence isn't the candidate lol. Kaine ends every exchange with "yeah but Trump said abcd" and Pence just keeps shrugging.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good debate judo by Kaine to use both ISIL and ISIS in the same answer.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> six pence none the richer

Mike Pence none the wiser.
posted by guiseroom at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Man, sometimes I get sick of this "we're a nation of immigrants" nonsense, but I guess I see that it's in the service of a good cause.
posted by koeselitz at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016


> THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS

AND IN THE AIR!

It reminded me of Rumsfeld saying he'd look for the WMDs in the east and the west and the north and the south; its that verbal filler that just screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."
posted by peeedro at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016


Shit, everytime he sets up the "defend this shit, son" bait, she switches gears!
posted by valkane at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence has his canned father knows best expressions, and spouts a bunch of untrue talking points and then gets an I Told You So Look, with much canned regret. I think he also attended the Orrin Hatch school of serious looks.
posted by Oyéah at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Deportation Nation is my least favorite Schoolhouse Rock
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Donald Trump can't start a twitter war with Miss Universe without shooting himself in the foot." Dad comedy gold.
posted by meinvt at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Personal Mt Rushmore. Kaine was saving that- did you see the smile on his face?
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Donald Trump can't start a Twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the Foot"

Full point blue
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


@mattyglesias: "Pence doing a great job of making the case for Pence, but a poor job of defending Trump."
posted by holgate at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine made an early mistake in assuming that Pence was a human opponent when in fact Pence is actually either undead or a construct and so you have to use different tactics.

Use bludgeoning weapons instead of piercing or slashing weapons Tim.
posted by vuron at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [65 favorites]


I like that Kaine has twice now said "here's the plan to X" and run through five bullet points. That's a good look.

While typing this he went through bullet points about Trump's military plan. "Trump said the world would be safer if more nations had nuclear weapons."
posted by fomhar at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Love that it's wrong for folks to be prepared for their public job interview.
posted by palindromic at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh snap, Mount Rushmore of Dictators while Pence just shakes his head.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine: [Top-notch set piece on national security and why Trump is dangerous]
Pence: "Did you work on that one a long time? Because it's got some really creative lines in it"
Kaine: "See if you can defend any of it"
posted by zachlipton at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [76 favorites]


I think Kaine is finally hitting his stride. The nervous chuffing by Pence is soothing...
posted by Panjandrum at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence laughs through Kaine giving a litany of Trump's dangerous foreign opinions.

Kaine came back by asking what Pence thinks is funny about nuclear war.
posted by winna at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [45 favorites]


Ok, no Jack Kennedy moment.
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016


@RealDonaldJTrump "@GeeVeeM: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Pence is so prepared! He did his homework to outperform Kaine."

He really hopes he can get Pence to do his homework, too.
posted by ckape at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb, I don't get the anger from the NeverTrumpers. They're against the deplorables too! That's, like, part of their whole thing? So.... wtf?
posted by palomar at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


"I was in DC on 9/11"
"I was in Virginia, where the Pentagon is"
omg stfu you two
posted by gatorae at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Even if Kaine wins, I dread the headlines in the morning. Because they're all going to say Trump/Pence was destroyed last night. And we all know goddamned well Trump could join Pence on stage and they could take turns torturing small animals with power tools and their support wouldn't drop below 46% because holy shit there are a lot of terrible people, you guys.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


One good thing Kaine is doing is laying a marker demanding Pence defend Trump, and Pence never says anything.
posted by gerryblog at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I was also in a place on 9/11 and was sad. How many more decades before people can quit proclaiming that before being elected to office
posted by Countess Elena at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


Ugh I wanted so much more from Kaine. Or less. You know what I mean.
posted by tzikeh at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence, if you pull the "I was in New York on 9/11" card in Trump's defense one more time I swear I will teleport myself to the debate floor through SHEER WILL and I will PUNK-SLAP you directly in the balls.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I actually think it's smart that Kaine is focusing on Trump rather than Pence, no matter how bad you make Pence look, he looks better than Trump in comparison which lends credibility to Trump's campaign. The one thing that completely discredits Pence is that he agreed to be on the ticket with the great orange menace, other than that, he's pretty much an average conservative these days. And a lot of republicans who aren't so keen on Trump are dying to vote for an average conservative.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Iraq was NOT secured in 2009. No. Wrong.
posted by k8bot at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Iran still exists therefore..." (paraphrasing)
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whether you think Kaine is choking or kicking ass, I want to remind you all what Nate Silver implies in this tweest:

@NateSilver538: We're liveblogging the VP debate too, though, which could easily swing the polls as much as 0.006 percentage points.
posted by Justinian at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [63 favorites]


Deportation Nation is my least favorite Schoolhouse Rock

Well, there was Elbow Room.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is going through some extremely dull troop deployment discussion and tying it to some dead solider. It is very boring.
posted by winna at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016


Is it possible that Pence may look like he's winning but is actually coming across as super-creepy to undecided voters?
posted by acidic at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence has not defended Donald Trump's words or record a single time tonight.
posted by humanfont at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Quijano: Domestic terrorism?
Pence: BROWN PEOPLE. BORDERS. ISLAMIC TERRORISM.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Can't watch this any more; going to make a chicken pie for tomorrow's dinner.

Go get 'im, America's Dad!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm hoping Kaine gets a chance to go after Pence for his terrible views on women and LGBT individuals.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do they even understand what the definition of refugee is!!!??
posted by sweetmarie at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence just told a grieving mother her son's life was squandered.
posted by adept256 at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


It is very boring.

Sad!
posted by drezdn at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Governor Pence, what do you really think goes into approving someone for immigration?"
posted by Talez at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is even more evil than Trump, I feel, watching his lying, political-evasion techniques on display tonight.
posted by valkane at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Iraq was NOT secured in 2009. No. Wrong.

Indeed, and Bush is the one who negotiated the deal with Iraq for US forces to leave. Trump and Pence keep blaming Obama and Clinton when the deal was in place long before the inauguration.
posted by zachlipton at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Remember, all of Hillary's numbers are counting 5-10% of Republicans not voting for the Republican.

But all of Trump's are counting all sorts of % of Dems not voting for the Dem, even though polling in big states like Pennsylvania isn't showing that, which in turn suggests that the multiple profiles of legacy Dem places in Pennsyltucky are mostly meaningless in electoral terms.

I'm genuinely interested in the number of #NeverTrump Republicans who might be willing to go with a situation where Trump gets bored & resigns / impeached and the presidency goes to Generic Republican Pence.
posted by holgate at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016


My feeds cut out so I'm listening on NPR. I feel like I'm experiencing a totally different debate from everyone else. Pence has his radio voice, but his content is empty. AND IT'S SO FRUSTRATING
posted by chaoticgood at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We will do 720 kickflip no hands ollie vetting

I have no idea what these words mean
posted by ckape at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine definitely seems to be doing much better now that he's sticking to snipes here and there rather than going full chomping-at-the-bit attack dog. Pence does finally have some emotion in his voice, but it's all anger, he's yet to approach enthusiastic about anything, really.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is trying to get Pence to defend the undefendable and Pence won't do it.

Maybe good strategy for Pence long term but it will make the Republican ticket look fractured like Trump and Pence don't get along. Sad!
posted by vuron at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it possible that Pence may look like he's winning but is actually coming across as super-creepy to undecided voters?

Well I'm busy trying to decide what vampire the masquerade clan he is in but I don't know how representative I am.
posted by winna at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


They're against the deplorables too! That's, like, part of their whole thing? So.... wtf?

Hillary has not done a good job of saying that she didn't mean all of Trump's support, and every #NeverTrumper has a friend or colleague that has made a painful, terrible, hard choice and chose to support Trump. It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case. She needs to clarify that more publicly.
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Elaine asks how Pence plans to stop "homegrown" terrorism. Pence looks pained and says, that's a great question, then spirals off on immigration.
posted by mochapickle at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


How come she can't just ask them to answer the fucking question? Can we get some Irish journalists here? Even that BBC world report dude? He knows how to cut someone off when they start to dissemble.
posted by klangklangston at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]



I think the reason some people think Kaine isn't doing so great is that they are comparing it to a debate with Donald Trump. If you compare a debate to the debate with Donald Trump it's always going to look like you're losing because Donald Trump is so terrible.

Alternatively people think Kaine isn't doing well because HRC kicked Trump's ass into December.
posted by zutalors! at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence neatly sidestepping the US-born terrorists question with, we gotta have stronger borders so hostiles don't come in.

Mod calls him on that, puts it back on home-grown terrorism.

Pence is back to, first we gotta make Americans safe by keeping people out.

Kaine jumps in with, we have a plan to keep people out if they're dangerous but Trump wants to keep people out if they're Muslim.

Pence goes back to his recent anti-Syrian prejudice.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence just said, in answer to a question about how to prevent homegrown terrorism, that it starts with reforming immigration and then went on to specifically and carefully avoid talking about homegrown terrorism. And now Kaine looks like a guy who just drew three aces and is trying not to sweat it out.
posted by penduluum at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is just hammering Pence here, and every time Pence has to defend Trump, he passes. It's awful optics for Pence.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary has not done a good job of saying that she didn't mean all of Trump's support

But she literally said half
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


Good hitting Pence with getting slapped down by Republican judges.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kane started with the hand chops and now pence is starting it up too
posted by rebent at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes! We have cyber employees!!
posted by k8bot at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is just hammering Pence here, and every time Pence has to defend Trump, he passes. It's awful optics for Pence.

It's his only play. Defending him makes it worse.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well I'm busy trying to decide what vampire the masquerade clan he is in
Nosferatu
posted by drezdn at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"CYBER"

*cybers*
posted by acidic at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"But she literally said half"

BUT WHICH HALF
posted by klangklangston at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


winna: Tremere
Trump is Malkavian
Okay I'm done
posted by Countess Elena at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


borderline unintelligible on the radio, and Kaine is failing to exhibit dominance, which is what the crosstalk bullshit is about. C'mon Dad, sock him in the chops!
posted by mwhybark at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016


BUT WHICH HALF

The other half, of course.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016


That Kaine line about public-private partnerships in intelligence was a bit cringe-worthy coming on the heels of the news about Yahoo.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Emails again. Check out cyber tape.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Update:
Kaine: [Top-notch set piece on national security and why Trump is dangerous]
Pence: "Did you work on that one a long time? Because it's got some really creative lines in it"
Kaine: "See if you can defend any of it"
Pence: [Pretends it never happened and changes the subject.]
posted by zachlipton at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Bait and switch with the cyber security.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano: "How will you stop home-grown attacks made by American citizens?"

Pence: "Well, it starts with a strong immigration policy."

???

No, he started by saying "great question," and then pivoted back to immigration policies.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please remember to explain what you're reacting to the the benefit of those of us who aren't watching live, thanks.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Moderator needs to slap down Pence harder.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.
posted by valkane at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine: [finishes thought]
moderator: ok thanks.
[Pence smiles, looks ready to move on to new topic.]
moderator: lets talk about the tragedy in syria
Pence: Excuse me, are you going to let me respond to what he said?
posted by gatorae at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]



You're right, only half of them are deplorable racists. The rest are just fine voting for deplorable racism.'

seriously. they showed up to the beach bonfire that turned out to be a cross burning, and they stayed. [Jay Smooth]
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


An hour in and nothing on climate change, women's right (Pence's worst topic by far), Wall St, trade, inequality, college tuition......AND NOW WERE BACK TO FUCKING EMAILS
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


drezdn I'm thinking Ventrue, actually.
posted by winna at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gotta get that emailghazi in.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MODERATOR MODERATE!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case. She needs to clarify that more publicly.

You're great corb, but I think you're a bit off here. She needs to clarify that by voting Trump they show their complicity in terrible racism, and that's about just as bad in an electoral sense. Open racism IS bad, and so is supporting it, and they need to say so, not try and coddle people in their bigotry.
posted by neonrev at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm too far back to be relevant, but the external/internal terrorism thing was a missed hit (but a difficult thing to distill into a 5 second quip);

Internal terrorism attempts by 'minorities' in the US (ie., Pulse shooter) were instigated by institutional racism against the offspring of legal immigrants, who responded to discrimination.

Integration of immigrants would be one aspect of preventing (the desire to inflict) terrorism.

--

Geeze, Pence is a (technically proficient) politician. Shame he's propping-up/apologist-ing a travesty like Trump.

He's going to really help the borderline Rs unless he melts down.
posted by porpoise at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine does sound a little Andy Rooney at times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Both of them steamrolling right over the female moderator.

At least Kaine said he was sorry.
posted by Sublimity at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


To call Trump a Malkavian is an insult to the noble clan of the moon. Trump is clearly some sort of failed Ventrue ghoul-turned-caitiff
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


She ASKED you to STFU, assholes... Both of you...
posted by mikelieman at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't forget gay rights, TD STrange. Are you sure he's worse on women's rights than gay rights? I mean, I don't think he actually wants to kill all women...
posted by Justinian at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Listening to Pence talk is like being eighteen again and "debating politics" in the form of being hectored by my girlfriend's wingnut dad.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Pence lacks the charisma to be Ventrue or Toreador

He's not zany enough to be Malkavian

He's against nature so no Gangrel

Pretty sure he'd try to fry any Tremere at the stake for being witches.

No Energy so clearly not Brujah

So he's either Giovanni (although that seems to fit the Trump brood better) or maybe Lasombra or Tzimisce.
posted by vuron at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


What? Pence is a Child of Set - he's dedicated himself to an admittedly amoral, destructive demagogue who only cares about his own pleasure and not a whit about those that bring him such.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Elaine, why would you tell Pence to shutup right after he segues into emails. That just goes to moderator bias.
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


What's Aleppo?
posted by valkane at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tone battle. Pence is syrupy smooth and droning and hypnotic and much better at talking over Kaine. Fuck. Kaine does not pick and choose his moment as well as Diamond Joe. If there was a Veep II debate, Kaine would own it, as he is sharp and prescient and forewarned about the Pence Hum, but there is not.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Forget about allowing the moderator to cut mics, give her a stun gun.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


She really needs the ability to cut the mics.

Edit: Stun gun would work too.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good Lord, not the email server again!
posted by SisterHavana at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


(Also, high five to all my fellow kindred watching this thread, picking up LARP tips)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Quijano asks what our role is in protecting civilians globally.

Pence called Putin a "small and bullying leader" which.. is a bold move, all things considering.
posted by winna at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I would love to know how Trump plans to rebuild the military with tax cuts for the rich.
posted by xyzzy at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Didn't Pence watch Obama/Romney? We already covered why our Navy is smaller than it used to be.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump/Pence: Bring Back The Draft!
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence says we have the smallest navy since 1916, which who cares, guy.
posted by winna at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm so sick of that stupid "Smallest Navy" line.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]



Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.

I feel like Pence is only aware of 10% of what Trump has done at any given time. Like, you know how they keep the vice president separate from the president sometimes in case of emergency. They do that with Pence and Trump speeches so Pence can have plausible deniability(**).

(**)Hamilton reference!
posted by drezdn at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Actually I'm getting pretty stoked for the Hilary ads tomorrow with side by sides of Trumps quotes while Pence chuckles condescendingly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


valkane: Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.

Head cannon: Pence is laughing to himself and saying "how the hell did I agree to be VP to this idiot."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wonder if because she said half it sounds more believable than Trumps all because one sounds more hyperbolic than the other.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine needs to GO TO TOWN on the Russia stuff.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What is Kaine drawing? Maybe a funny cat to bring home to the kids later?
posted by k8bot at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I like that he brought up crimea(manafort lol) and specifically used the phrase "lean in" when talking about it. That was interesting.

I'm putting those HRC shotglasses to good use and it makes Pence seem a lot less like a regular lich.
posted by fomhar at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is asked about Syria and talks about everything but Syria.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


What kind of next level shape shifting is this guy doing? Fight Putin, who is your best bud, with the military, which you want to defund?
posted by antinomia at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine's big plus: He can defend the email accusations by basically saying "fuck yall, shit was investigated and they found NOTHING" in a way that Clinton doesn't seem to be getting advised to do (and instead trained to quickly apologize and try to move on).
posted by windbox at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I mean, I don't think he actually wants to kill all women...

Only the ones he doesn't want to bang...
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


We are always going to have difficulties explaining complicated technology and privacy choices and capabilities to elected leaders and voters. It isn't going to be easy and we have to stay on it.
posted by humanfont at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to GO TO TOWN on the Russia stuff.

There you go. I like it when he listens to me.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


And by believable I mean outrage inducing.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016


The 2016 Navy: Smaller Than Trump's hands?
posted by drezdn at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, LGBT folks. Let's GO.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: 'We have the smallest navy since 1916'

The 600 ship navy is a perpetual Republican winner, because Reagan. Another opportunity to nail him on how to pay for naval expansion and contrast with Republican slashing of everything else.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton didn't want to bring a missile shield to Poland or the Czech Republic"

I realize you were only a toddler but Jesus Christ, Pence didn't you at least do a book report on the Bay of Pigs in high school?
posted by Talez at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence shakes his head every time kaine quotes trump as tho it's shameful of kaine to make such a mockery of American politics by quoting trump.
posted by ian1977 at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Uhoh I totally agree with what Pence is saying right now about standing up to Russia.
posted by Flashman at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Does Governor Pence not realize that Putin is one of Trump's favorite people?
posted by SisterHavana at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence is asked about Syria and talks about everything but Syria.

He used up all of his Syria talking points on the question about homegrown terrorism.
posted by ckape at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine really getting into his groove now.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


My fanfic version of this debate is so much better.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pence can say whatever shit he wants to about Putin, he will have no actual power. That is what this debate has taught me.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence's feed cut out!!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


The size of the violin I'm playing for them is physically impossible given that it's smaller than Planck distance.

C'mon. You may not like it, but if disaster is averted there will need to be Republicans to rebuild the GOP, because there will be a GOP in Congress and it will have control of at least one chamber.

That said: I think it's going to be difficult to go all hands-across-the-water in October, when the campaign strategy shifts explicitly to GOTV and converting RVs to LVs. If that means that some #NeverTrump Republicans decide that they have had their feelings hurt too much by a candidate who was talking about the kind of fuckers who made them #NeverTrump in the first place, then I'm sorry but that's a conversation that now has to happen within the Republican ranks.
posted by holgate at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine caught out Pence on Russia - he quoted Pence saying Putin is a better leader than President Obama.

Unfortunately he then starts talking about Trump's taxes, which is a waste.
posted by winna at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.
posted by zachlipton at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


So many (plausible sounding but still) mis-truths from Pence/Repubs.

Shit. Fuck NCLB which just amplified the vaccine against rationalism.

Hah! Loved that Kaine referenced '5th grade <social studies?> class'!!
posted by porpoise at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016


Hrmm that Washington Naval Treaty is definitely hampering the US Navy I mean they have to just use pre-dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers instead of having like 10 carrier groups...
posted by vuron at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump supports the troops, except the weak ones.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


PENCE: Well, first and foremost, Donald Trump supports the troops.

Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.
posted by palindromic at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence insists that the US needs a bigger military so that other nations will "know they are dealing with a strong America." Um. Dafuk has that got to do with "do we have an obligation to help refugees and other people damaged by war?"

Possibility 1) The Pence Hum hypnotized me and I missed some obvious segue between those.
Possibility 2) Pence ignored the actual question and just went off about how America needs the biggest stick so we can threaten anyone who makes us unhappy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016


"I'm hoping Kaine gets a chance to go after Pence for his terrible views on women and LGBT individuals."

Attacking him on women will likely lose Trump votes; attacking him on LGBT issues isn't as likely to. (Can't imagine there are very many LGBT people voting for Trump — it'd be about signaling to the liberal side of mainstream voters that Trump would be bad for people they care about. I'd guess there'd be a reasonable calculus you could make out of how persuasive that is times the number of voters that rate it as a top priority [and, if you want, a progression of effect on people based on how high a priority they rate it] but I don't have enough of a likely voter model to actually make any sort of guess on how much that would shift people who are not already voting for Clinton to vote for her — including people who might otherwise not vote at all, based on enthusiasm, e.g. snake people).
posted by klangklangston at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


My fanfic version of this debate is so much better.

Pence has a metal arm and has been brainwashed?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wish Kaine hadn't pivoted back to taxes -- he was doing well hammering on the dissonance about Russia.
posted by Rumpled at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


A clash of self-selected echo chambers: The commentary here seems really displeased with Kaine, while the commentary I'm getting from Twitter seems pretty happy with him.

Neither of these are remotely uncommitted in their support of Clinton, so I'm not sure what to make of it. :)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Has Pence taken credit for Donald's campaign stances even once?

Tim Kaine always talks about what he will do with Hillary Clinton, while Pence always talks about Donald's campaign.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]




The size of the violin I'm playing for them is physically impossible given that it's smaller than Planck distance.

C'mon. You may not like it

I'm not sure people know what they're asking when they ask minorities to just "c'mon" on things like this.
posted by zutalors! at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence is getting rattled, asked if Kaine didn't take deductions when Kaine retorted that Trump doesn't support the troops because he doesn't pay his taxes.
posted by winna at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.

Right now, about 40% of the popular vote.
posted by mochapickle at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence is putting together a decent audition for the top line in 2020 by pretending to be unaware of anything Trump has said or done, he's not defending any of it, which doesn't help the ticket, but might help clear his name of the stink in 3 years time and against 15 more GOP retreads and burnouts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Feckless" !DRINK!
posted by mikelieman at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Uh Russia invading Georgia was in Aug 2008, which was still Bush. I guess Obama is responsible for that just like Katrina?
posted by Lykosidae at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.

People who irrationally hate Hillary, the Clintons, and/or women.

People who root for the bully.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh Kaine referred to Trump as a maniac!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


We've got a Reagan-off!
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


lamenting the finest warriors of his ANCIENT PENCE EMPIRE. spectral warlord pence furious that rambunctious boy wizard wont follow orders
posted by Countess Elena at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kaine called Trump a fool or maniac, and Pence is all "that's beneath you" but I cheered so there you go.
posted by dis_integration at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can't watch anymore of this. This is a total train wreck.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just love how Mike Pence called out Tim Kaine for wanting to change the subject right after Pence himself answered the question by...changing the subject.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


"Jeffersonian values" playing to the crowd
posted by klangklangston at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


I guess Obama is responsible for that just like Katrina?

And the death of Humayun Khan.
posted by Talez at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


we've got dueling Ronald Reagan quotes which is a huge waste of time.
posted by winna at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Let's corner the GOP on nukes!

I have a nuke for your party and I call it recordings of trump !
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine calling Pence out on not defending Trumps statement on nuclear armament. Pence blowing it off
posted by sweetmarie at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence must know that his political career is over unless Trump somehow wins.

The chances of being able to distance himself from Trump stink are minimal
posted by vuron at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


In 1916 the USCG had ~40 combat capable Cutters. Today they have ~350, not including vessels smaller than 80', bouy-tenders or ice-breakers. The Navy today is far more focused on power projection. When it comes to defense? Yes, the Coast Guard has missile-cruisers, and nastier surprises beyond those. This comes something as a surprise to people who don't live in a Coastie town - kinda like finding out the EMT has a grenade launcher in the ambulance in case the Ruskies get frisky.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Pence, stop trying to make the Clinton-Kaine ticket the insult ticket happen. It's not going to happen.
posted by palindromic at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The enduring memory of this debate will, I hope, be Pence refusing to acknowledge or support any of Trump's statements, especially those in support of nuclear proliferation. And Kaine is hitting that hard.
posted by zachlipton at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Kaine called Trump a fool or maniac, and Pence is all "that's beneath you" but I cheered so there you go.

Frankly, at this point, smacking someone with a chair wouldn't be beneath this campaign...
posted by mikelieman at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't watch anymore of this. This is a total train wreck.

My husband just sighed and walked sadly into another room. The only way I can handle this is because of y'all. THANKS MeFi!
posted by k8bot at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I haven't spoken to him in years, but I hope my navy gunner cousin is watching this debate somewhere from onboard a aircraft carrier the size of a small town, carrying armaments able to lay waste to most small countries, and giggling to himself about the idea of us having a small navy. Pretty sure his carrier could wipe out most earthly navies solo. He's my only liberal family member, and I hope he's having fun with this.
posted by neonrev at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence's dismissive head shakes at Kane's quoting is really,really gaslighting-feeling.
posted by Brainy at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


oh my god why wont Pence say 'of course more countries should not have nuclear weapons'??? He literally changed the subject. what the actual fuck.
posted by gatorae at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


THERE WE GO, TIM!

"Six times I've asked you to defend Donald Trump, and six times you've refused."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [107 favorites]


Pence also needs to stop denying that Trump said things that he definitely, definitely said. It is too stupid.
posted by palindromic at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Oh wow, that line about not defending Trump.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


What a nearly tearful "he never said that"
posted by Countess Elena at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Alternating between this and the playoff baseball game. Whenever I get sick of dropped balls, wild swing-and-misses, and jaw-dropping errors, I just put the ballgame back on for a while.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


You know what? It's almost beside the point that TK is speaking the truth and that Pence is letting that truth roll off him like rain on a windshield. This whole thing is just very, very undignified and I hate it.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


that was great and the moderator ruined it.
posted by acidic at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

I have no further comment on the significance of this sartorial fact other than the fact that I might have gotten a wee bit drunker than anticipated a wee bit faster than expected.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.
posted by zug at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Quijano needs to have some way to cut their mics. This is a terrible format without it.
posted by winna at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


And there's the payoff from that marker-laying. And Pence punted on defending him a seventh time.
posted by gerryblog at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine calls Pence out for six instances in this debate alone where Pence could not defend his running mate. Pence goes all charley horse. And my feed cuts out!
posted by mochapickle at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [36 favorites]


I like Kaine pointing out Trump's blithering ignorance on Ukraine.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Scratch that, I hope the enduring image of this debate is Pence saying "he never said that" over and over again about things Trump has, in fact, said.
posted by zachlipton at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"let's start by not calling Vladimir Putin a great leader"

that landed
posted by mwhybark at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Man, Pence is finding out all kinds of awful stuff about Trump tonight

He's going to be really upset when he gets back to campaign H.Q. I bet
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [81 favorites]


Honestly, they're both coming across as assholes here. I'm pretty disgusted at the interruptions and talking over the female moderator.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hillary wore red and Trump had a blue tie at their debate.

Kaine is doing much better now on foreign policy
posted by Rumple at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


zachlipton: The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.

More head cannon: they're saying Elaine like they're asking "Mooom, lemme finish!"
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

Clinton wore a red suit and Trump wore a blue tie in the last debate.

I would be a fan of candidates wearing solid, neutral colors like soccer goalies.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

Happened in the first debate also. (Red dress for Clinton, blue tie for Trump.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016


ooh smooth... Kaine said, "six times in this debate, I've called on Pence to defend Trump's positions; all six times he's refused, and yet he wants the public to vote for Trump."

Pence says that's not true, and that if Kaine lists them off, he'll defend them.

Kaine says, "more nations should get nuclear weapons." (Referring to Trump claiming Saudi Arabia, Japan, Korea should have them.)

Pence: He never said that.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


At first I thought Kaine was losing, and he certainly has let some opportunities slip.

But the more Pence talks, the sleezier he seems. Weird.
posted by Yowser at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I hope our boy Tim has some garlic and a cross because in the split screen view it completely looks like Pence is eyeing his jugular as he dustily laughs.
posted by winna at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Quijano needs to have some way to cut their mics

STUN GUN

Or at the very least, built in seat buzzers.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence: I sure do lie smooth, don't I?
Kaine: YOU GUYS ARE LYING CHEATERS!
posted by valkane at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.

I really don't think so. The format forces them into talking as much as they can get away with regardless of who the moderator is.
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence is definitely trying to make "insult driven campaign" thing happen. Welcome to the Upside Down.
posted by lydhre at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Alternative Universe!" DRINK!
posted by mikelieman at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016


I think people are mainly disappointed that Kaine isn't doing a better job of highlighting Pence's awful record.

But hammering on Trump is just soooo easy guys. It's hard not to take advantage when the opposition is just leaving their torso open for the body blows.

There aren't any knockout blows but it's continually forcing Pence to ineffectually defend Trump.

Forcing this election into being a referendum on Trump is a really good thing.
posted by vuron at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Active duty military types often feel the military needs to be bigger just on general principle. It's not a given that they'll scoff at claims the military is smaller.

Also, re: the Coast Guard: you're talking about a force responsible for the entire US coastline AND interstate waterways AND a giant bucket of other responsibilities using a number of personnel on par with the NYPD. Yes, they have ships, but no, it's not a big enough force at all. Not if you care about all the jobs the Coast Guard is tasked with.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine just pull out your phone, look up the clip on youtube and fucking play it instead of quoting him.
posted by Talez at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Now apparently Clinton is to blame for Russia invading Ukraine??? Well OK then
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So the entire prep was built upon "so: you can't defend Trump." Which is great, but who's still paying attention 70 minutes in? The people paid to watch it, I suppose.
posted by holgate at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen.

No it isn't. *sigh* I'm just so disappointed in your insult-driven comments, Pater Aletheias.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yes, the Coast Guard has missile-cruisers, and nastier surprises beyond those.

Plus it's filled with people who went to ask.metafilter for career advice!
posted by drezdn at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


@DanRather
This debate is crackling like a hickory fire
posted by sporkwort at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence's "no he didn't say that" is going to look really awful in the ads when paired with Trump literally saying that.
posted by zachlipton at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [82 favorites]


The Trump Mirror contagion has spread to Pence, despite his noble and many attempts to steer as clear of the Trump as possible.
posted by palindromic at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence's vocal register is climbing! Hit him again, Daddy Kaine!

(Not really. Like, don't actually pop him one.)
posted by mwhybark at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


cmtf, the misogyny comes in the way they're doing it. They use her first name as a wedge while she's calling them correctly by their last names.
posted by winna at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The best thing about this debate is that by Pence not engaging anything that Trump said, it's all still wide open for Clinton to double-down on in the next debate.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


PENCE: STRENGTH, PLAIN AND SIMPLE
posted by palindromic at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


So after all that shouting back and forth, Pence STILL won't defend Trump's statements. Says it all.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


One of my historian go-tos, Paul Kennedy of Yale, still notes that the US Navy is bigger than All The Navies In History and All The Other Navies Put Together.
posted by holgate at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


its about the Russia, taxes!
posted by clavdivs at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "Wah wah this is an insult campaign"

Kaine: I'm literally repeating everything your running mate said
posted by Tarumba at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [62 favorites]


despite his noble and many attempts to steer as clear of the Trump as possible

Noble? Do words have meaning anymore?
posted by dis_integration at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


This is fascinating. Every time Kaine highlights something Donald Trump actually said, Pence denies Trump actually said it. This isn't the same as two people with differing opinions about philosophy or something, it's a candidate for the Vice Presidency denying proven facts. Is he really so far down the well that he doesn't know what reality is anymore?
posted by wintermind at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump would know something about "crony corrupt capitalism," Mikey.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


It was, like, sardonic.
posted by palindromic at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016


"Pence is even more evil than Trump, I feel, watching his lying, political-evasion techniques on display tonight."

Pence has the blasé look of someone sucking the juice out of an infant.
posted by klangklangston at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


It was nice of Trump to buy Pence his own mirror.
posted by ckape at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Quijano asked why Putin would respect Trump and not Clinton, Pence said "strength".
posted by winna at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: "America is much stronger than Russia." THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR RUNNING MATE SAYS!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"absolutely inarguable"

go poppa go
posted by mwhybark at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, Pence was definitely going to say 'inarguable' before he switched to 'inaccurate.'
posted by palindromic at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Active duty military types often feel the military needs to be bigger just on general principle. It's not a given that they'll scoff at claims the military is smaller.

Active duty military types, in my experience, are also pretty inclined to be mad if someone suggests that they are weak in any way, or unable to do the job in any way. Trump & co tend more to the 'they are weak' side than to the typical 'more expensive machinery = more better' typical GOP approach.
posted by neonrev at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016


For those catching up later:
Mod: Putin said he doesn't respect Hillary and he doesn't respect Obama; what will make him respect a Trump/Pence government?
Pence: Strength, pure and simple.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I got a pun I don't know how to use
six pence none the richer

Every time I see TRUMP PENCE I get 🎶 feed the birds, TRUMP PENCE a bag 🎶 going through my head, and I am similarly at a loss.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Kaine repeated that Pence called Putin a stronger leader than Obama and now Pence is denying his own words, not just Trump's.
posted by winna at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is under his skin right now, just keep this pace dad.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm really getting sick of hearing Pence call Obama feckless.
posted by blurker at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Without some sort of mic powers there's just no way for the moderator to have any control here.
posted by graventy at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Russia reset? awfully random...
posted by acidic at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016


Every time Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs and shakes his head as though they're made up. What gets me is that, if you hadn't been paying any attention to the campaign up to this point, you would think they're made-up. Because they're ridiculous. And ordinarily, VP candidates don't run on a platform that has nothing to do with the top of the ticket's.

Luckily, there'd probably be very few of those people watching this painful sideshow, right?
posted by Rumpled at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I keep imagining Putin watching this whole thing over steepled fingers like the Patrician
posted by Countess Elena at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


six pence none the richer

six times pence none questions answered
posted by Talez at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.

Huh. I read it completely the other way.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm good on all the nuclear stuff since Trump is so terrible on it, but I can't believe we're going to go through the entire debate without mentioning Pence's "I hate the gays and kinda women too" policies.
posted by Justinian at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


The only thing I can think of with Pence repeatedly referencing the Russia reset is that the campaign is trying to get out from under the perception that Trump loves Putin.
posted by winna at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016


REBUILD. MILITARY. CUZ WE ONLY GOT THE BIGGEST IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM,
posted by valkane at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen."

So, I had an uncle who was a serial philanderer, and what he told my dad was: "Deny, deny, deny. 'What are you going to believe, honey, me or your lying eyes?'"

(To be fair, he was not on the Indiana side of the family, which runs more toward domestic abuse over collectable tractors.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really wanna see this connect the dots picture Kaine has been working on
posted by sweetmarie at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Pence is clearly on the defense.

Short of saying "No comment" I don't know how he could be doing a shittier job of being a surrogate for Trump's campaign
posted by vuron at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country," Pence said during an interview with CNN
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


HMmm, Trumpiest mirror so far?
posted by Brainy at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You really want to talk about Foundations, Mike? Is that really where you want to go?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence trying to hammer Clinton/Kaine on ISIS comes off as disingenuous, idiotic, and ignorant. For one, ISIS no longer controls Iraqi oil fields. For two, Trump literally said we should steal Iraqi oil as some sort of right of conquest. So not only is ISIS being beaten back, but Trump's plan would have exponentially increased not only the level of conflict, but the expenditures of American blood and wealth in fighting in a country that doesn't want us there.

The ignorance of the Trump/Pence foreign policy is astounding.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Heh. Tim looked like he was physically restraining himself there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016


oh good, let's go back to the Clinton Foundation. Because two minutes is enough on North Korea and nuclear weapons.
posted by zachlipton at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine: peace through strength! We're all going to be drafted
posted by jazon at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh, Pence brought up the Clinton Foundation.

Go for his throat, Tim...
posted by mikelieman at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Peace through strength" is literally the definition of a dictatorship.
posted by femmegrrr at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I wouldn't blame Pence for not listening to Trump at all and just not knowing what he says.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence keeps bringing up the Clinton Foundation. Kaine needs to go in hard on the proven ethical problems with the Trump Foundation. There's a lot of meat there.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish Kaine would explain the diplomacy of the Russian reset.
posted by xyzzy at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Ugh, that fucking travesty of an AP article. Thanks, assholes.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Oh, I'm glad you brought up foundations, because YOURS JUST GOT SHUT DOWN IN NEW YORK!
posted by valkane at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Is he really so far down the well that he doesn't know what reality is anymore?

He's a Republican governor of Indiana that managed to alienate himself from the Indiana business establishment. The answer to your question is inarguably "yes."
posted by mwhybark at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yes. Yes, Gov. Pence, let's talk about foundations.
posted by penduluum at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


O FFS is this the Foreign Edition? Syria, Russia, North Korea. When are we going to get back to the Domestic policy (if ever.) I swear they are spending way more time on the foreign policy then they did in the Presidential Debate.

Oh ...Pence has swung from North Korea to the Clinton Foundation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


argh, not that nothingburger Clinton Foundation/donors/access story again
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Just to argue with myself, it's because Kaine and Clinton don't give a flying eff about Mike Pence. Every minute they are attacking Pence on LGBT or women's rights is a minute they are not attacking Trump on taxes, racism, nuclear weapons, or anything else. So I understand Kaine's focus on Trump. I'd have thought the moderator would bring up the other stuff, though.
posted by Justinian at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


As a malaria researcher, the smearing of the Clinton Foundation is one of the most depressing, if inevitable, outcomes of this election.
posted by palindromic at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [73 favorites]


And we're back to the Clinton Foundation! It almost seems like all Mike Pence knows how to do is repeat his talking points.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016


"I'm glad to talk about the Foundation!"

Now talk about the TRUMP FOUNDATION!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Every time Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs and shakes his head as though they're made up. What gets me is that, if you hadn't been paying any attention to the campaign up to this point, you would think they're made-up. Because they're ridiculous.

Yeah, Pence is just outright claiming up is down, but the tape is not going to be kind tomorrow.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha, Kaine is trying to use eye contact to point out that he wants a response.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016


THERE WE GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am so glad Kaine started with AIDS and opioid work when talking about the Clinton Foundation. That's (hopefully) got to sting Pence's horrible terrible very bad record on both those topics.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


HMmm, Trumpiest mirror so far?

The perfect response.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


TALK ABOUT THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL SHUTTING THEM DOWN!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"cmtf, the misogyny comes in the way they're doing it. They use her first name as a wedge while she's calling them correctly by their last names."

Missed baller move: When she does that, tell her to call him, "Tim." Makes him relatable, makes it reasonably polite for him to use her first name, adds subtle highlights to Trump=misogynist narrative.
posted by klangklangston at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would love for Pence to try to defend the Trump Foundation.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine talks about concrete positive outcomes from the Clinton Foundation and that it is highly rated. He then pivoted to discussing the Trump Foundation.
posted by winna at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


TIM KAINE IS READING MY MIND!!!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kaine: Trump has an "Octopus like organization"

or, CTHULHU!!!! amirite
posted by k8bot at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence keeps bringing up the Clinton Foundation. Kaine needs to go in hard on the proven ethical problems with the Trump Foundation. There's a lot of meat there.

Tim has heard you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016


'Again, I would remind you both that this was about North Korea.'
posted by palindromic at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


Oooh yeah... Kaine gets to talk about the Clinton Foundation and its good works, and how it, and she, have both been found free of wrongdoing.... but since we're talking foundations, let's talk about Trump's...
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


THE PORTRAIT! YAY DAD! BRING UP THE TEBOW HELMET NEXT!
posted by Talez at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh, emails. Come on.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: "The Trump Foundation gives every cent to charitable causes" ... oh, that's going to make a lovely ad soundbite.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think Pence didn't get the memo that it's the second quarter and Team Trump is already down like 2 touchdowns and continually punting the ball isn't exactly going to erase that deficit.

I mean really, hoping that Trump can stage a miracle comeback in the next two debates is pretty optimistic.
posted by vuron at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, SNL just getting people off the street for this one?
posted by drezdn at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence's swivel-head rotation powers his incredulous eyebrows.
posted by zyxwvut at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Emails for tax returns. Glienicke Bridge. 12 hours.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm a bit behind here, but:

Quijano asked why Putin would respect Trump and not Clinton, Pence said "strength".

Translation: Alpha-male patriarchy is the only way. Trump and Putin will be two Mafia crime lords making deals with each other over "territory."
posted by dnash at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine: Trump has an "Octopus like organization"

or, CTHULHU!!!! amirite


Hail Hydra.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


JFC. Interesting back and forth about issues we care about and it's back to North Korea.
posted by acidic at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence drops the 33k emails line after claiming that the Clinton Foundation is an slush fund to allow the Clintons to travel the world while the Trump Foundation gives most of its money to charity.
posted by winna at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


No one has addressed topicality even once this round, and I'm pretty sure neither of them are flowing the round. SMH.
posted by drezdn at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Translation: Alpha-male patriarchy is the only way. Trump and Putin will be two Mafia crime lords making deals with each other over "territory."

This is different from the cold war how?
posted by Talez at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Ooh, I like that chinese intel, says Pence to himself.
posted by valkane at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


I am literally nauseous watching a man nominated for VP bald faced lie while looking straight into the camera. Seriously ready to vomit. On the other end of the couch, my very calm and quiet husband began shouting at Pence on the tv, so at least I have a little comic relief to get me through this.
posted by hollygoheavy at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Holy shit the blatant lies about the foundations are just infuriating.
posted by graventy at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


An octopus-like organization? Perhaps like a...Hydra?
posted by Maecenas at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Paying Trump's legal bills is clearly charitable though guys!
posted by vuron at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oooooh... A faith off!
posted by Talez at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Huh. Faith.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016


Awwwww his mom and dad came to see Timmy in the big debate!!! :D
posted by k8bot at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine: "That's an easy one for me."
posted by porpoise at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


As the ending question even.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016


OOOHA YAY FAITH QUESTION

Can you discuss in detail, a time when you struggled to combine your faith and a matter of pubic policy?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Quijano asks how Pence and Kaine balance their faith with public policy needs.
posted by winna at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Josh Marshall says: Kaine is getting the key hits on Trump out in front of the audience more or less unrebutted. Not sure whether it's intentional or not, but Pence seems to be angling more for 2020 than 2016.

He might be on to something here.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Pence response: "I too, used to be Catholic, but that was before I found Jesus."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


FINALLY we get to social issues!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016


Okay, everybody who was hoping for a Bible-off tonight, your horse just came in.
posted by penduluum at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


""I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country," Pence said during an interview with CNN"

I can't help but Freud that for Trump: Power = macho = cock size. Trump = very macho; huge, tremendous cock, lots of people are saying so at the Sizzler. Obama = not so macho; small cock (challenge to racist worldview — very upsetting) = not powerful. Putin = very macho; strong cock, much power. Pence tries to translate that into Homo Erectus without losing the dogwhistles.
posted by klangklangston at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pretty incredible we're going to get through an entire debate between the biggest threat to women's reproductive rights in America today and a pro-life Catholic Democrat without a single abortion question.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Kaine comes out with the example that he is against the death penalty but he was governor of a state with the death penalty.
posted by winna at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine knocked the faith question out of the park with the death penalty tie-in. Sends the message that he'll go with the law on abortion despite being personally "pro life."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


I know I'm late to this but the Pence "we need a broad shouldered man" thing is just gross and sexist and apparently something he's been saying for a while and I didn't know. Puke. Combined with the GOP website's 404 page, it just emphasizes what the party thinks of women and their place in society. Or since I'm quite willing to say not all republicans believe that, it says what the party leaders are willing to project as the party's attitude towards the role of women. And it's gross.
posted by R343L at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Okay, Tim's had a rough night, but I loved the answer about faith and policy. Perfect.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I love that Kaine always divides his answers between his policy, which he describes very well, and what Trump said.

That way when it's Pence turn, he always has to be on the defensive
posted by Tarumba at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


All I ask is that you use your mind meld with Tim for good.
posted by humanfont at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?
posted by vuron at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was having trouble putting my finger on exactly was rubbing me the wrong way about Pence, and someone on Twitter hit it on the nose. "Mike Pence is America's gaslighting, passive-aggressive ex-boyfriend."
posted by antinomia at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [61 favorites]


Pence reminds me of my childhood in camps similar to Jesus Camp
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I understand why Kaine answered the faith question like he did, but I'm disappointed by the lack of any real mention of LGBT/women's rights so far this debate.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence: "I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a freshman in college" ?
posted by sweetmarie at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016


Guys guys guys! I found a video of Mike Pence's mentor! Right here!
posted by Talez at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm worried. Kaine is making points we all know are sound, but he isn't managing to do so with any clarity. He's got that overexcited thing going on where his brain outruns his speech and clauses from the next sentence tumble into this one. I *like* the guy, and I find myself switching off.

Pence is speaking in easily comprehensible sentences, his inflection is on, he's taking breaths in the right places. His content is a nine-ounce turd, but the packaging is immaculate.

On abortion, he can fuck right off though.
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


OH JESUS HERE WE GO FUCK YOU PENCE AND YOUR PROLIFE HYPOCRITICAL ASS
posted by chaoticgood at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


How is that a conflict, Mike?

Also, the question is about YOU, not fucking Hillary Clinton.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is vague as hell about what this cherished faith is which is because he doesn't want to talk about his devotion to Ba'al on television.

You jackass the ancient principle of the sanctity of life is from the early nineteenth century.
posted by winna at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is the part where old dudes decide about a woman's reproductive rights. I think my ears sort of close up on their own when this shit starts.
posted by k8bot at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Pence so very sad about abortion
posted by sweetmarie at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the few politicians that I really believe when he gives a public confession of his faith.

Probably not a coincidence: the other one is HRC.
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is literally not answering the question of when his faith came into conflict with his politics, probably because he's a hypocrite who has no principles.
posted by dis_integration at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was having trouble putting my finger on exactly was rubbing me the wrong way about Pence, and someone on Twitter hit it on the nose. "Mike Pence is America's gaslighting, passive-aggressive ex-boyfriend."

I just went Kate McKinnon-wide eyed.
posted by figurant at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Pence is basically rehearsing for the 2020 GOP primaries with this pro-life argument.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?

No, just a joke. Pence was raised Catholic, but then became evangelical.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence goes on about how devout he is, and then goes on to talk about "sanctity of life" - talks about abortion alternatives in Indiana, and pro-adoption policies. (Fact check?)

Doesn't talk about a struggle between faith and public policy; it's all about "how I make public policy that matches my faith."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?
posted by vuron at 7:25 PM on October 4 [+] [!]

An excellent example of when the [fake] tag might be in order

(that was not something actually said)
posted by Golem XIV at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence is going hard for evangelicals, and I'm sure the net is overflowing, too.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Paraphrase: "I really struggled with my faith when HRC said partial birth abortion was awesome." -- Pence
posted by xyzzy at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Pence double down on religion over the law?
posted by klarck at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Although Pence is finally coming out with an answer to a question - his faith supersedes any issue of public policy.
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, trust American women.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine: We trust American Women!
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm sorry, Kaine had a sincere answer about faith and Pence is just coming across a smarmy asshole.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"pro-adoption state"

Hoosier adoptee here. a hearty FUCK YOU, YOU SOCIOPATHIC HUMAN TRAFFICKER to you, scumbag.
posted by mwhybark at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Pence: "I try to spend a little time on my knees each day." [real]
posted by gatorae at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Please drop Purvi Patel here, Kaine. PLEASE.
posted by palindromic at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Doesn't support punishment? You fucking liar.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence Signed a Law Requiring Burial or Cremation for Aborted Fetuses: The measure was part of a controversial abortion bill that Trump's vice presidential pick signed this past March.
posted by homunculus at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


but since we're talking foundations, let's talk about Trump's...

And then Kaine blew it, swerving into talking about the "Trump Organization" (repeating points he's already made over and over) and then barely scratched the surface of all of Trump's Foundation shenanigans.
posted by Flashman at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016


Wait, THAT'S the fundamental difference? I feel like there are some other really important ones too.

But yeah, it's a BFD. We CANNOT overturn Roe v Wade. Ever. Ever.
posted by k8bot at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence backs down on Trump's "Punish abortions."

Turning point.
posted by porpoise at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


PENCE: Senator, you've whipped out that Mexican thing again.
posted by palindromic at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"whipped out that Mexican thing again".

Please proceed governor?
posted by nathan_teske at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


"He said some of them are good people!!!!!" OMFG
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence finally taking the bait and trying to defend Trump. And failing.
posted by klarck at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good gospel quote.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Dem spin room response needs to be that Pence is running a 2020 GOP campaign for himself, while Kaine is running a 2016 one for HRC.
posted by holgate at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kaine just put the boot in
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again.."
posted by obscurator at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again."

...oooh, sounds kinky!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not pro-adoption, it's pro-identity erasure.
posted by mwhybark at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?
posted by Justinian at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Has Trump actually ever spoken about abortion?
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016


Quoted the bible for truth!
posted by R343L at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016


"From the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

BIBLE OFF 2016
posted by gerstle at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the fulness of the heart the mouth speaks. Not "Render unto Caesar" but I'll take it!
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is finishing strong.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine failed to hammer Pence on him saying that he didn't want to punish women when in fact Pence has already worked to punish women.
posted by winna at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence: "I try to spend a little time on my knees each day." [real]

Man, the alt-right anti-cuck contingent isn't going to like that one.
posted by sideshow at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence: "Senator you have whipped out that Mexican thing again."

That "Mexican thing" being Trump calling Mexicans rapists.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Governor, I regret to inform you that we're not doing phrasing anymore.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


You've whipped out that Mexican thing again...
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016


That's a fucking home run.
posted by penduluum at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Governor why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves".
BOOM
posted by k8bot at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [46 favorites]


Why dont you trust women? Why doesnt Donald Trump trust women? To make this choice themselves
posted by sweetmarie at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Kaine: "Why don't you trust women to make this choice themselves?"
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by chaoticgood at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kaine scored all the major points

1)Forced Pence to defend Trump which Pence just went with the Kellyanne strategy which is already getting mocked relentlessly

2)Got a very strong personal faith answer in which should negate some of the "Godless Democrat" bullshit

3)Did no harm to the ticket

In contrast Pence basically had to lie relentlessly to avoid defending Trump which if this debate means anything (it doesn't) isn't going to impress voters.

Plus if he's angling for 2020 he's going to have about a zillion attack ads pointing out his false statements.
posted by vuron at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


To elaborate I actually, despite not being a Christian, really am glad to see full throated defense of progressive Christianity. Many Americans are religious and it's fine and good for democratic politicians to reflect that.
posted by R343L at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [53 favorites]


PENCE: Senator, you've whipped out that Mexican thing again.

Taco trucks on every corner!
posted by Panjandrum at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Again, this is the danger of a post factual error. Pens can lie all he wants on the TV, nobody's going to fact check him, and they're not gonna believe the other media sources fact checking because we all know they're biased anyway, am I right?
posted by corb at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"He's not a POLISHED politician like YOU GUYS, jeez..."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Why don't you trust women?" YES. So great. And Pence had no answer.
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine is rather like Hubert H. Humphry, Pence is a lot like Lloyd Benson. He looks a lot an older Putin.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is now going off in some haywire place in a passionate advocacy for adoption, not abortion.
posted by winna at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Why don't you trust women?" nvmd, this must be this.
posted by porpoise at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Re punishment: "Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that women who seek abortions should be subject to “some form of punishment” if the procedure is banned in the United States"
posted by craven_morhead at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Pence so very sad about abortion"

he cries every time he sees an angel soft toilet paper package
posted by klangklangston at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


OMG Kaine said:

"When Trump tells you (punishing women, rapist Mexicans, etc.) he is telling you who he is"
posted by Tarumba at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [38 favorites]


My apologies for the spelling errors, I am maybe posting from my car. Like an addict.
posted by corb at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall. Trump starts typing and the Steve minders lunge before he can hit send.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano asks what the candidates will do to heal the country after this divisive campaign.
posted by winna at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?

It's also in Matthew 12:34. Lots of overlap in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Christ Pence is a bullshitter. With all his religious righteousness I doubt he had sincere moral fiber in his being.
posted by angrybear at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence: "Society can be judged in how it deals with its most vulnerable - the aged, the infirm, and the unborn."

That's gonna come back to bite him. It'd be a nice line... if Trump actually had plans to take care of the aged, infirm, and other vulnerable populations.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I admire Kaine for sticking to the message. I can't imagine it felt good, but he got it done. This is a great #2.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kaine started out pretty rocky and overly fighty in this debate, but he's finishing strong and relaxed by standing on his own principles and forcing Pence to defend Trump's nonsense, which often go directly against Pence's own principles.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Kaine: "Why don't we trust women to make this choice for themselves."

Pence: "Because society is judged on how they treat the weakest...including the unborn."

So there you have it. "Unborn" trumps (heh) "grown woman."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.
posted by gerryblog at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


man pence is in the talk radio zone. Never acknowledge a point, keep talking over…
posted by klangklangston at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Allow me to demonstrate usage of the [fake] tag:

PENCE: [fake]
posted by perspicio at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [55 favorites]


The idea that Trump is actually pro life is fucking laughable.
posted by gatorae at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Also in Matthew, which shares some material with Luke because they are partially based on common earlier sources.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016


It's pretty clear that Kaine is doing this debate for Clinton, and Pence is doing it for Pence.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


> Has Trump actually ever spoken about abortion?

Yes, and said that women should face "some form of punishment" for it.
posted by Westringia F. at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


War on coal. Drink.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence shares his running mate's inability to answer the question he is directly asked.
posted by Sublimity at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: "Great line from the Gospel of Matthew: from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

(Context: Trump says he wants to punish women for abortions, Pence denies this would happen.)
posted by zachlipton at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I thought Pence came off well in the first half of the debate with Kaine looking a somewhat frazzled but that Kaine shifted gears a bit and came off well in the second half while Pence was clearly on the defensive there.
posted by Justinian at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence was raised Catholic, but then became evangelical.

— Then, said Cranly, you do not intend to become a protestant?
— I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
posted by holgate at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?

Lots of overlap in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Bit of derail, but there's a hypothetical Q Source which ties together Matthew and Luke.

John is still a wierdo outlier.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence seems not to have really done any prep for this last question about how his ticket can unify the country after a victory. It's like he hasn't bothered to plan for winning...
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


So there you have it. "Unborn" trumps (heh) "grown woman."

I really do believe that Pence believes that women are part of our "most vulnerable", but his brain was smart enough to not say it.
posted by mikelieman at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine talks about Clinton's bipartisan efforts, Pence talks about how the country and world needs to be strongarmed by a businessperson to build a strong America
posted by sweetmarie at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]



"Why don't you trust women?" YES. So great. And Pence had no answer.

Pence began, "Because there needs to be a culture of life," and I really thought he was going for, "Because they're..."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Again with the War on Coal. They are trying hard to make a stand for OH and PA.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Whoa, is this where Pence comes out for Hillary?

Oh, nope. Trump.
posted by Floydd at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


For those reading along offline, Kaine recounted how Trump said women should be "punished" for abortions and Pence defends it by saying Trump isn't a very "polished" politician. And then Kaine shook his head in disbelief and brought out a biblical quote. Unfortunately saying it was Matthew, but it was really Luke, as Justinian said.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is completely baffled by having to answer how to unite the nation so he starts painting an apocalyptic vision of how terrible everything is.

I notice that he kept deriding Kaine as a career politician while simultaneously talking about how long he himself was in congress but I don't expect anyone to report on it.
posted by winna at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence your first governor's campaign was suspended because you used your campaign funds to pay off your mortgage why are you trying to act like you aren't a corrupt career politician.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


If they're smart, what they'll do is take Pence's quote about measuring by how we treat the most vulnerable, and play it next to actual Donald Trump quotes.
posted by corb at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [36 favorites]


AND it is over.
Rum now so I dont dream of Pence gaslighting me in my sleep.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.

I know you're trying to be optimistic but this is doubtful. We're going to hear a lot about Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's aggressive floundering the next 48 hours. It sucks, and we're going to get through it, but thems the breaks.
posted by windbox at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Well, that answered our questions: Kaine took one for the team, and Pence isn't really part of a team.
posted by holgate at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think their wives look so similar. With the same haircut, they'd be almost impossible to tell apart.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016


The families are actually all standing there talking and shaking hands, compared to last week's weird awkwardness.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hopefully thats enough of a wash that we'll be back to our regular scheduled Trump implosion shitshow.
posted by angrybear at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hee hee PBS commentator: "Kaine came out caffeinated"
posted by k8bot at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's over. Scattered applause. Elaine vanishes like a sigh.
posted by mochapickle at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


feloniousmonk, it's a ridiculous question to Pence, because they don't give a single damn about unifying the country, or even what happens to their base
posted by Countess Elena at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we are going to hear Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's awkward flailing. But we're also going to hear "Pence repeatedly denied that Trump said things that he actually did say. Here: let's see the clip." And that may end up being the main story.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


CNN takeaway is "Pence was better but Pense declined to defend Trump". So a tie I guess.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"How will you bring unity to America?"

Kaine: Points to Hillary's extensive record of working across the aisle.

Pence: American life sucks currently, and it needs Trump's strong leadership to make it great again. [paraphrase true]

And no, I'm not going to bother mentioning how that will create any unity whatsoever. [not actually stated or even paraphrased.]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gosh, I hope so.
posted by valkane at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


First two on-site analysts I saw on CNN seem to be calling it for Pence.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.

I know you're trying to be optimistic but this is doubtful. We're going to hear a lot about Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's aggressive floundering the next 48 hours.

Maybe, maybe not. But here's the thing: nobody really gives a shit about the VP debate.
posted by dersins at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


So Pence said we're going to be striking the Assad regime? That will end well.
posted by localhuman at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


It was Matthew 12:34.
posted by Lexica at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Lollll Arbitrary and capricious jinx
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016


Honestly, all Clinton needs from this debate is for it not to change the narrative from "Trump is a fucking trainwreck." I'm hoping that it'll meet that very low bar. Even if everyone thinks Pence won, then it will be "don't you wish Pence was the candidate?", which is not particularly great for Trump.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


They should give the moderators a supersoaker full of pee
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


"The idea that Trump is actually pro life is fucking laughable."

I imagine the thought process went from thinking that pregnancies ruin broads' figures to thinking that virgins don't need it and whores will take care of it no matter how illegal it is.
posted by klangklangston at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.
posted by Wordshore at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [107 favorites]


Chris Matthews was impressed with Pence and thought Kaine came off as desperate. Raise your hands if you're stunned.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is CNN reporting anything like "Pence denies his running mate's saying a dozen things that are easily Googleable?"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe, maybe not. But here's the thing: nobody really gives a shit about the VP debate.

No, but this one provided all this material for "Roll clip of Donnie saying something vile", "Roll clip of Mike Pence denying Donnie said it", over and over and over and over that's going to be hi-larious to watch.
posted by mikelieman at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


But that gives people more of a reason to vote for Trump: he's even said he'll delegate as much as possible to his VP and staff.
posted by dilaudid at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN hot take via Jake Tapper:

Pence wins on style (calm/reasonable sounding vs. interruptions)

Trump/Pence should have stronger fundamentals since "it's a change election", but in trouble since said change candidate isn't running away with the race due to myriad problems.

On that point, Kaine aired many of these problems largely accurately and Pence refused or declined to defend them.

Upshot: Pence may have won the night, but not sure about the week once we "go to the tape" as Kaine repeatedly said.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016


I think we have a distorted view of debates because we listen to what the speakers actually say. Your average undecided voter would have the same response if they'd watched the thing in Esperanto. Who looked weird? Who seemed rude? Was someone sweaty or awkward?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep Pence is the creep enabling, gaslighting douchebag who provides cover for the sociopaths like Trump.

He's probably too scared to engage in the abuse himself but is more than willing to live vicariously through the actions of the "alpha"
posted by vuron at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


"Chris Matthews was impressed with Pence and thought Kaine came off as desperate. Raise your hands if you're stunned."

To be fair, Matthews, like most dogs, responds more to tone of voice, even as he recognizes many words.
posted by klangklangston at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [71 favorites]


When he has a chance to think about it, Trump's going to be pissed that Pence "won" and he lost. Hopefully around 3:00am tonight.
posted by klarck at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm just waiting for The Onion's inevitable article on Kaine sneaking an extra juice box beforehand.
posted by ckape at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


All that not-defending Trump *could* turn into a hundred think pieces about the "divide" in the Trump camp and how the two men barely conceal their hatred for each other, speculation about how long it can hold together. With the right push from the media. You KNOW if it was Kaine/Clinton, it would.
posted by ctmf at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.

*monocle drops into bone china teacup* You don't say
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


I wonder how long it takes to thaw James Carville out for these MSNBC appearances.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Político: The Ten Most Interesting Moments of the VP Debate
posted by box at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You: watching the debate

Me: currently in a building with literally every 5th grader in my school district taking their first music lesson on their brand new band and orchestra instruments. I am sitting between the violas and the flutes but sound is carrying from every direction.

I am not sure who is in a worse spot.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [68 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


Pence had a solid strategy, which was basically to retreat every time Kaine went on offense. It was basically 90 minutes of Kaine chasing Pence around and around in circles. Pence didn't lose, but it sure as heck was kind of a boring debate and sometimes seemed they were just talking over each other.

Taken in isolation, Pence did very well. He did pretty much what Trump should have been doing in the first debate. But the problem is, this is the second debate and this is the VP debate. Who in the US is going to be left that has both not been paying attention to the campaign until now and/or is tuning in specifically to see Kaine vs. Pence?

It's kind of closing the barn door after all the horses bolted.
posted by FJT at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"the vice presidential debate was a unique opporunity to watch mike pence learn trump's positions in real time"
posted by Talez at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [114 favorites]


Mark Shields is killing it on pbs on the followup.
posted by valkane at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Considering most pro-life people seem more concerned with punishing women I could see how Trump would come off as being aligned with that camp because he's clearly about punishing women

You know unless they are fuckable like his daughter.
posted by vuron at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trying to decide if I have the energy to go see what the GOP site says about the debate now that it's actually over.
.
.
.
Nope. Can't do it.
posted by instamatic at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wonder how long it takes to thaw James Carville out for these MSNBC appearances.

True story, I was on a cruise that Carville and Matalin were on. Ran into Carville, said hello, he looked and talked WAY more normal in real-life.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Clinton's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [real]

Trump: Clinton's hairpiece is horrendous and I hear she gives out fake cufflinks [fake]
posted by penduluum at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Focus group on CNN overwhelmingly picked Kaine.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


ABC News analysis is commending Pence for staying calm, but essentially saying that Kaine "sacrificed himself" to hammer home points against Trump and cement the college-educated women demographic. Also, they're pretty unequivocal that Pence is a big fat liar.
posted by gladly at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


From a British avert-my-eyes perspective: if, as I actually expect, HRC is one-term, the Pence-Kaine debates in 2020 will be very different.

Pence is angling for 2020, and the fact of his running alongside a dumpster fire on wheels in 2016 is merely peripheral. Kaine is drilled on 2016.
posted by holgate at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence was going into specifics on confronting Russia that are nothing like anything Trump has ever said about Russia. I'd love to see Trump asked if he agrees with them.
posted by Flashman at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


CNN undecided focus group just gave it to Kaine overwhelmingly

Edit: ha, DOT
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine: "Your name is Michael Pence. You were born in 1959. You have a wife. You have children."

Pence: "Nonsense. Never happened." [fake]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


Winner or Loser doesn't matter. The only thing anyone will remember about this debate is the phrase "You whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by humanfont at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


So that debate in itself was a wash. Bad format, nothing really landed hard in the moment. However the Trump side gained nothing, and we're fast approaching the point where a failure to change the game is itself a loss for their side.

Secondly, Team Clinton can now go to town with ads showing Pence's blatant denials against Trump footage.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


CNN focus group overwhelmingly thought Kaine was the winner, FYI. Like 18 vs 3. Tapper notes the panel is from Richmond, though, where Kaine was mayor, so maybe not an unbiased sample.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


CNN undecided focus group just gave it to Kaine overwhelmingly
Wow, really?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fox News undecided focus group just gave it to Putin. [fake]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?

Competence is cheating.
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


This is probably my second exposure to Tim Kaine since he was announced and, I like this man [yt].

He seemed uncomfortable a lot - it's not in his nature to put anyone down and it pains him to call out Pence's fake politi-speak. If his rhetoric lacked fire, it was more a reluctance to be mean while needing to do what his party needed of him.

But Pence did a lot of damage, too. Technical Draw, could be argued either way depending on strategy/tactics.

Long live the fighters!
posted by porpoise at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Clinton's hotels are tacky and everyone thinks so. [fake]
posted by drezdn at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yes! CNN just said Pence would be a better general election candidate than Trump! Less than five hours till 3am.
posted by DanSachs at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


The CBS focus group almost unanimously said Pence did better, the ones who were leaning Trump said it made them more likely to vote for him, but it didn't change the minds of any of the Clinton leaners.
posted by EarBucket at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why would you assume Hillary is one term? She would level Pence in a debate; all she'd have to do is bring up his shitty record and tendency not to show up for work. Plus having Trump's fail-smear all over him. If he's her challenger in 2020, she's a two-termer.
posted by emjaybee at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Tapper notes the panel is from Richmond, though, where Kaine was mayor, so maybe not an unbiased sample.

Why the hell would CNN recruit their panel from Richmond?
posted by zachlipton at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


KAINE: Mr. Trump is a man

PENCE: Nonsense

KAINE: Who lives

PENCE: Everyone knows he's dead

KAINE: In New York

PENCE: Doesn't even exist
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [116 favorites]


Are we now in the tea interval, or has this particular episode of japes and tomfoolery come to a conclusion?
posted by Wordshore at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


The outcome of this debate wasn't as clear as the first presidential debate, but I think in order to talk about whether Pence won or not it's necessary to first look at what winning means in the context of the state of his campaign. In order to do that, I have to bring it back to the old question: we know Trump's present coalition has a ceiling so what did Pence do to broaden his appeal and win new voters into the fold? I think to the extent this debate matters at all, over the long term as soundbites from tonight pick up airtime in new ads, Pence's dropped arguments will reveal that Kaine got the upper hand tonight.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Over on NBC, Kellyanne is up on the recap. When asked about Trump and taxes, she insists that he's always paid taxes! Real estate taxes, payroll taxes! When prompted, she hastily remembers to say federal income tax.
posted by mochapickle at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The response on Crimea needs to be something more like this, I think: on top of not even knowing Russia had annexed Crimea—thinking that Russia was already in Ukraine only in "a certain way" even when challenged on that—possession is nine-tenths and Trump gave away exactly what Russia wanted, the last tenth, for free! The instant he said "yes" to lifting sanctions on Russia related to Crimea and recognizing the annexation, and followed that with "the people of Crimea"... "would rather be with Russia" he gave away the most important bargaining chip, because he had no idea what the hell is going on in Ukraine, and because in actuality he's such a shitty negotiator that he didn't even realize a negotiation was going on.

If Trump were to become president, Russia will always be able to say "the President of the United States acknowledged that Crimea belongs properly as part of the Russian Federation." It's over, it's done. Russia got that for free. This is what happens when Trump has to deal with equals on an even playing field. The only kind of negotiation is remotely able to handle is when he's the rich guy with a team of lawyers beating up on a small business partner or an employee.

BTW, lol Chris Matthews: "Kaine hit all the erogenous zones of the Democratic party"
posted by XMLicious at 7:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


MSNBC is basically salivating for a week's worth of clips refuting all of Pence's bizarre refutations of things Trump clearly said.
posted by gatorae at 7:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Would Pence make it out of a primary? If Trump doesn't win, the Republican field seems like it would be crowded again in 2020, unless someone like Paul Ryan could scare off most of the potential candidates.
posted by drezdn at 7:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


My husband and I agree, after the vice-presidential debate:
Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in.
I haven't heard from my daughters yet (one isn't voting, the other is... voting her conscious.)

We will still probably cancel each other out, but we both would be more sure of our votes.
I like Kaine.
posted by TrishaU at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016


Paul Ryan certainly scares me, he's the rich bully in an 80's teen movie.
posted by valkane at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?

Nobody has enough books to make a good fire, so this is the next best thing.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Are we now in the tea interval, or has this particular episode of japes and tomfoolery come to a conclusion?

Tea until Sunday. Cricket has nothing on US elections.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I bet Trump is going to be livid about this. Every point Pence scored was for Pence, not the team, and he basically acted like he was embarrassed to be Trump's running mate. Trump is not going to be able to stand that.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


Pence-Kaine debates in 2020
Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


> Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in

What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [90 favorites]


Why does everybody act like politics is a sport? It's not. It's how we live as a society. This isn't fleeting or something to pass time.

No one, not a single person, is talking about how Pence just opposed abortion in like the creepiest way possible.
Now I just feel bad.
posted by Talez at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Even if Pence filibustered his way into "winning" the debate next day analysis is going to be brutal because he'll come off as a liar.

And the late night shows and SNL are going to have a field day with the egregious lies.

So even if it looks good for Pence in the short term it's actually going to cost Trump over the long haul.
posted by vuron at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Didn't Biden get the same admonishments for being rude to Ryan? Good times.
posted by klarck at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was watching the Washington Post feed. The two talking heads after the debate agreed that Pence won on style but Kaine won on substance. I would not even agree with Pence winning on style. There were moments when his 2 minutes seemed liked eternity. The man droned. He was calm, yes, but oh so dull.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.

*monocle drops into bone china teacup* You don't say

My word!
posted by Behemoth at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I loooove everyone on TV saying Pence was only out to help Pence 2020. You just know Trump is watching and fuming.
posted by acidic at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


My husband and I agree, after the vice-presidential debate: Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in.

People say this every year (with the exception of Palin for obvious reasons) and it's a function of the differing roles of a Vice Presidential and Presidential candidate. Were Kaine in the P slot he'd be the one under withering fire by the other side.
posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mitrovarr, I think you're right, but I think even Trump (oh what am I saying) can keep that under wraps. He'll be bitter about it, but it seems like the two men have no relationship to damage.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?

A penis.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [50 favorites]


Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?

If Trump wins and quits in his first 100 days or Pence is an evangelical ticket balancer for zombie Ayn Rand.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thinking back on the Clinton/Trump debate, I'm wondering why lied more. Trump or Pence? You'd think Trump would have had it locked up, but Pence was lying pretty consistently.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]



Didn't Biden get the same admonishments for being rude to Ryan? Good times.

MALARKY!
posted by drezdn at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Egregious lies and Pence Head Shaking. There goes Mike, denying reality again.
posted by valkane at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016



Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?

If Trump wins and quits in his first 100 days or Pence is an evangelical ticket balancer for zombie Ayn Rand.

Right, it's a totally nonsensical scenario.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016


Would Pence make it out of a primary? If Trump doesn't win, the Republican field seems like it would be crowded again in 2020, unless someone like Paul Ryan could scare off most of the potential candidates.

Pence is gunning for the role of elder statesman, he's shooting to sweep in as the establishment's inside man who was ready to govern on behalf of Trump, and he'd have the evangelical vote. He could have a shot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I loooove everyone on TV saying Pence was only out to help Pence 2020. You just know Trump is watching and fuming.

Trump's been watching his favorite sex tapes for at least half an hour now.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine basically put on the Red Tearstone Ring and spammed R1 rapier attacks

No style, but later analysis will show massive DPS
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump lies instinctively, Pence in a more calculated and obvious fashion.
posted by emjaybee at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


If utterly destroying one's VP debate opponent could shift an election, we would have had a President Dukakis.

My take is Pence came across marginally better on the optics/style, and stuck to the normal, vile standard of the modern Republican party on policy, changing nobody's mind. I don't see this moving the needle a whole lot.
posted by tclark at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


For tonight's debate, for all of Pence's jabs against Kaine for being a lifelong insider politician, ironically for me it seemed that Pence's calm demeanor and smooth artful dodging non-answers made him seem much more like a lifelong insider than Kaine's overly excited and earnest guy trying his darndest to land a haymaker.
posted by FJT at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Costa: Pence's performance tonight: "Rush Limbaugh on decaf" with the wistful ethos of a John Mellencamp song
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm going to make an oddball prediction, but I'm completely serious: the lasting public recollection/interpretation of this debate is going to be based, not on this boring, fingernails-on-a-chalkboard event we just watched, but on SNL's cold open sketch about it that airs this weekend. The "winner" as recorded by history will be whoever comes off better in that sketch.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Last three @RealDonaldJTrump tweets:



"@Gsimmons03Ginny: @realDonaldTrump ..Kaine is awful, Trump and Pence are the ticket..no more lies, we are ready to see America Great Again!

"@AnyoneTennis: @timkaine Cannot believe how often the moderator interrupts #Pence vs the other guy...so obvious @FoxNews" So true!

Mike Pence won big. We should all be proud of Mike!


Not sure why he needed to diss the moderator-- I guess it is just his go to stance after any debate. I would like to see a time comparison because I would be willing to bet that Pence talked slightly more than Kaine.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's advisors were probably there to make sure he concentrated on Twitter, and not the actual debate.
posted by Yowser at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I gave up about 40 minutes in. The format was bad – it was painful watching them interrupt each other constantly. Kaine's performance was disappointing, and Pence just lied and evaded (and, from what I saw, got away with it).

I think it was the most recent episode of the FiveThirtyEight Elections podcast where they said that, historically, VP debates have almost no influence on the polls. So there's that?

From FiveThirtyEight:

There are two main takeaways. One is that Kaine came off overly aggressive and seemed too eager to get in his memorized talking points. The other is that Pence happily and calmly defended a version of his running mate that doesn’t exist.

That was pretty much my take.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Yes, but Pence was mostly lying ABOUT Trump's lies. MetaLiar.
posted by instamatic at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


No style, but later analysis will show massive DPS

Only if we win. Dad Joke Kaine was a no-show, even-keeled, honey-toned Pence was there all night. Polls will not go our way for at least a week.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016


My takeaway is that this debate was a very important event in which the two vic... zzzzzz.

Can't wait for Sunday.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaFilter MetaLiar: Donald never said that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Slap*Happy, VP debates do not affect polls.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality

From an Aussie perspective, I reckon that Pence ratbag was tellin' a bunch of porkies
posted by Rumpled at 8:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]


Why would you assume Hillary is one term?

Because 2020 is a census year; because 2018 is likely to be a bad year for the Dems in the Senate; because the GOP strategy of rabid obstruction (even w/ SCOTUS) is not going anywhere. There is no Dem upside to a Hillary Clinton second term. I wish there were.

Again, it's taking one for the team.
posted by holgate at 8:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Barring death or infirmity there is literally zero chance of Clinton not heading the 2020 ticket if she wins in 2016.
posted by Justinian at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


Polls will not go our way for at least a week.

I don't expect this to have much of an effect on the polls, although this is a very unusual election so who knows. In any case, whatever happens to the polls in the next 5 days will all be erased by what happens after Sunday's Townhall.
posted by dis_integration at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's make sure she wins this one then we'll start working to minimize the damage in 2018 and 2020...mkay? The circular firing squad can wait.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Tea until Sunday. Cricket has nothing on US elections.

You have never seen the amount of cake available at a tea break in a cricket match.
posted by holgate at 8:03 PM on October 4, 2016


BTW it's National Taco Day!
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah wait, you're suggesting is she wins this year she'll decline to run in 2020? Or that the Dems will primary her and win? That simply doesn't happen. That's not a thing that happens.
posted by penduluum at 8:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh sure, whip out that Mexican thing.
posted by condour75 at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]



BTW it's National Taco Day!

"You've whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Beat to it!
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaLiar: Donald never said that.

Feels Metafilter Man.
posted by Talez at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


By and by, visit http://thatmexicanthing.com
posted by R343L at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I am buttoning out if someone starts a 2020 election thread.
posted by DanSachs at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


There's a woman on MSNBC with a "Seaborn for America" poster in the background, which is awesome (and someone else with a giant Gary Johnson head, to which Maddow says "ask it what Aleppo is.")
posted by zachlipton at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine only won this one in some crazy alternate universe where words have meanings
posted by theodolite at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Daniel Lin‏ @DLin71
*Trump tells lies clumsily*
PUNDITS: This threatens political norms

*Pence tells lies skillfully*
PUNDITS: Much better
posted by Tarumba at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [116 favorites]


I am buttoning out if someone starts a 2020 election thread.

So am I.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Eric Trump disgusted Obama did not demand a marching band to greet him in China

Yeah idk either, this is his debate reaction somehow
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Flashback: Pence tries to scoffingly react to Kaine's characterization of Trump's "Putin is a stronger leader" schtick, stammers a bit, ends up calling it "absolutely... inaccurate." Mefite reaction:

palindromic: "Okay, Pence was definitely going to say 'inarguable' before he switched to 'inaccurate.'"

I took it as an easy Freudian slip joke. Turns out that's literally the word Pence used to describe Putin's superior leadership over Obama, so maybe it was?
posted by Rhaomi at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think there is actually something interesting in that Chris Matthews comment about "democrats erogenous zones"

Clinton/Kaine are apparently no longer giving a fuck about trying to peel off undecided voters from Trump because Trump can't seem to break 42-43%. Clinton/Kaine just need to drive Democratic enthusiasm and while Kaine might of seemed too feisty at times he made a very clear case about the differences between Clinton/Kaine and Trump/Pence in a way that will almost certainly help drive voter turnout.

In contrast Pence did absolutely nothing to expand the Trump base.

If I didn't know better it almost seems like the polling would be showing the opposite of what it actually is because Pence was defending like all he needed to do was play rope a dope but nothing could be farther from the truth.
posted by vuron at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Didn't Pence sorta look like he was hearing a strange sound at times? Maybe his political future circling the bowl.
posted by Splunge at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine: so, then there was the red wedding...

Pence: (shaking head) never happened...

Kaine: and then, rick bit this guys throat out...

Pence: nonsense

Kaine: and then we find out Bruce Willis was dead the whole time!

Pence: that tiny dictator will be put in his place by our STRENGTH! We must REBUILD THE MILITARY! EMAIL SERVER!

Kaine: turns out Robert Redford is Hydra.

Pence: Robert Redford's plan is a goodly plan that will make all the coal warriors put down their coal weapons and stop this coal war.
posted by valkane at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


I have friends already lighting up FB and Twitter with colorful offers to show Pence their Mexican things.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Kaine only won this one in some crazy alternate universe where words facts have meanings

FTFY
posted by Talez at 8:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lol CNN patiently making Eric look like a fool
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MSNBC just said that Al Gore is going to start campaigning in the next few days.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016


MSNBC's "Truth Squad" says there were no "blatant lies" LOL WUT
posted by acidic at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Didn't Pence sorta look like he was hearing a strange sound at times?

To me, he seemed to be using the "smell the fart" method of facial reactions.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Me: Oh man, I want more food, but I gotta pee too. They're in different directions.

My wife: Just go pee.

M: (heading toward kitchen) Trump says if he's elected I can get more food while I pee.

MW: Just go pee in the bathroom.

M: You're just like Hillary. Regulations! Make America great!
posted by klangklangston at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


New Republic Mike Pence tried to gaslight the American people about his running mate.
Most remarkably, Pence argued that Trump never held any of the positions or said any of the things that he actually holds and said. Pence lied about Trump’s immigration proposals, his comments about abortion, his tax policy, his feelings toward (and possible business ties to) Russia and Vladimir Putin. And at every opportunity, Pence said that, actually, it was Hillary Clinton who was close to Russia or was the real boor. (It should be no surprise that Trump’s campaign issued a release during the debate alleging that Clinton has close ties to Russia.) Pence’s strategy was to gaslight viewers and to confuse what have been very clear distinctions between the two campaigns.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [62 favorites]


I just have to say at a couple of points I was struck how much Pence physically reacted like George H. W. Bush used to do with that shoulder shaking head bobbing chuckle. Actually he was more Dana Carvey doing Bush, but boy was that a strange flashback, especially since the first time I noticed it they had just brought Regan into the discussion. Apparently it was past-presidents' day or something.
posted by sardonyx at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


MSNBC is already splicing Trump statements with Kaine's reminders of what Trump has said. Can only assume Pence's denials will be added into the next wave.
posted by Lykosidae at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Eric moves his mouth when he's not talking, like a muscle memory of lapping blood out of a freshly torn-out throat
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


I think we just saw a debate that wasn't really meant for us. I mean, some of it was, but I can't help but feel the whole point of it was to troll Trump. I think the Clinton team carefully selected topics and language that were guaranteed to get under Trump's reliable thin skin, and now they are going to watch as he has another embarrassing public meltdown, which Clinton will capitalize on in the next debate.

And pushing for Pence to take personal responsibility for Trump was a master stroke, because Trump didn't really want Pence, and this may drive a wedge between them.

VP debates don't usually have much of an effect of the elections, but this one might.
posted by maxsparber at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


MSNBC just said that Al Gore is going to start campaigning in the next few days.

Whaaa? He was totally absent from the Convention so I figured there was too much bad blood between him and the Clintons or he just was done with politricks. It'll be good to see his bearded mug again.
posted by dis_integration at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


By and by, visit http://thatmexicanthing.com

God damn that digital team is fucking good.
posted by dersins at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [45 favorites]


How are we feeling about Sunday? I am, rather suddenly and unaccountably, afraid that Trump will manage to come across as semi-reasonable.

I mean, I still think this is Clinton's election to lose, but the tiniest upward motion in Trump's poll numbers makes me go "nyarrrgghuugh". (Whereas downward motion makes me feel like I'm in the hospital and they've just opened up the flow of Dilaudid a bit. Like, "ahhhh, yeah that's the good shit".)

We know that Trump will respond to questions with a chunky slaw of untruths and outright nonsense. And the town hall format allows him to do that without challenge from either Clinton or the moderator. Best case (for Trump): his word salad will come across as merely frothy and bland. Worst case: his mouth will get away from him, and he'll either seem unhinged, or say something blatantly horrific (or both). (I think this latter possibility is the big danger for him – a random American will be a far more sympathetic victim than Clinton or a moderator.)

(I hate that substance, truth, and policy have almost zero bearing on the outcomes of these events. Instead, we talk about style, and emotional impressions, and zingers and gaffes, and "likability" – because those are the things that actually matter, in terms of winning or losing votes. And in talking about those things, at the expense of substance and policy, we encourage and validate the narrative that focuses on them.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


God damn that digital team is fucking good.

I want a behind the scene tell all about these people so bad.
posted by Jalliah at 8:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


WaPo Pence goes far, far beyond Trump on Syria
Asked how a Trump-Pence administration would stop the civil war carnage in Aleppo, Pence said that he, at least, “truly believe(s) that what America ought to do right now is immediately establish safe zones, so that families and children can work out of those areas,” and “work with our partners…[to] make that happen. Provocations by Russia need to be met with American strength.” If Russia “continues to be involved” in airstrikes along with the Syrian government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, he said, “the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike the military forces of the Assad regime” and “prevent this crisis in Aleppo.”

Trump has said very little about Syria’s civil war–and advocated none of the measures Pence outlined. Instead, he has concentrated on the separate fight against the Islamic State in Syria, saying he would “knock the hell out of” the militants, and advocated cooperation with Russia.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


IDK, there are a few unhappy conservatives holding their nose and voting for Trump, and with Pence they can also close their eyes and pretend the ticket is reversed.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Dana Bash just gave Eric a patronizing little wink at the end of his interview, and for the next few minutes she is my favorite journalist in America
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we just saw a debate that wasn't really meant for us. I mean, some of it was, but I can't help but feel the whole point of it was to troll Trump.

Yeah, as I was watching I was thinking, "I hope the (hopefully) neutral-to-positive marks that Interrupty Kaine gets for this will just encourage Trump to be as tone deaf and provoke-able as he was in the first debate."
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Guess where http://ThatMexicanThing.com redirects?... Hillary's donate website!
posted by Tarumba at 8:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


And the town hall format allows him to do that without challenge from either Clinton or the moderator.

Not convinced by that. Also, it's scheduled against Giants-Packers.
posted by holgate at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016


"I am, rather suddenly and unaccountably, afraid that Trump will manage to come across as semi-reasonable."

Trump will spend most of the night trying top Pence's performance. It's going to be very weird.
posted by klarck at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think that the really pivotal thing this debate has shown is that Trumpism is contagious: Pence not only denied the reality of things Trump has said on film, he claimed he didn't speak words Pence himself provably said. So Trump's entire cabinet, and perhaps his entire executive branch, would be the same way: Trump with start all of his trade wars and his Secretary of Labor will say: "I never said Americans should have jobs. And neither did the President."
posted by XMLicious at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Team Hillary's IT shop is pretty next level on pretty much everything. And I'm not comparing that to the shambles that is the RNC and Trump campaign IT operation but to IT shops in general.

They move fast, they have excellent opposition research, their predictive analytics is apparently crazy good.

Trump's organization is completely outclassed.
posted by vuron at 8:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Watching Pence's faux disbelief at everything Kaine said about Trump just gave me terrifying Kerry/Bush debate flashbacks.
posted by ckape at 8:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com
posted by mrzarquon at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


Tim Kaine seemed like a good potential president. Mike Pence seemed like a devil's advocate struggling and failing to defend the Antichrist's douchebag cousin. (I may be biased)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


and they understand cyber
posted by you're a kitty! at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Can someone shed some light on Pence stopping himself from saying he was also raised Catholic? He was rephrasing his life story on the fly with his family saying grace and moved onto finding Jesus in his freshman year. It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


God damn that digital team is fucking good.

I want a behind the scene tell all about these people so bad.

We got that last time and it was pretty delicious. I'm betting we see similar this time around.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


@NickRiccardi Eric Trump denying Russian ties. "If you want want to know if we have assets in Russia, go look to see if our name’s on a building there."

So it is impossible for Trump to have assets in Russia without his name emblazoned on a building? And honestly I'm not worried about whether or not he owns buildings in Russia, I'm worried that he owes Russia money for the buildings that he has here.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


You joke about this, but I recently re-watched Dune with another MeFi-er, and one of the things that struck me was how Trump's penthouse decor looked a lot like the decadent palace of the failing Corrino Imperial regime.

#failingcorrinoimperialregime

Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen; and clearly the very buff Paul Ryan needs to step into Sting's aluminum jockstrap.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com/em>

OMGosh I love her! Thank you.
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> So it is impossible for Trump to have assets in Russia without his name emblazoned on a building? And honestly I'm not worried about whether or not he owns buildings in Russia, I'm worried that he owes Russia money for the buildings that he has here.

This is the point - the question was originally about Russian owning Trump assets, but he answers in a way that changes the premise.

Its a basic shitty douchebag negotiating tactic.

Also doesn't work outside of most lunchrooms or bars.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I hate that substance, truth, and policy have almost zero bearing on the outcomes of these events. Instead, we talk about style, and emotional impressions, and zingers and gaffes, and "likability" – because those are the things that actually matter, in terms of winning or losing votes.

It's not true! But it is true that the people who are still undecided, are mostly going to be won over by emotional appeals to their personal hot-button issues, whether via policy soundbite or speaking style.

Those who can be persuaded by logic have already made up their minds--and they are the vast majority of voters. Policy and substance had a great deal to do with who they're voting for. The ones who can't be bothered to sort out the difference between "here's our revamp of current immigration policies" vs "gonna build a wall," can't be sure whether it's better for the economy to raise minimum wage or give tax cuts to billionaires, are using something other than rational comparison of candidate histories and policies to make up their minds. So of course, both campaigns are going to target them with emotional ads and soundbites.

It's not that the C/K campaign doesn't believe in the importance of policies, but they're not going to waste valuable, limited airtime going over them in detail; they have a website for that. Instead, they're going to use airtime to say "we have a policy and Trump doesn't, and also, he's vicious to people that you care about."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Never has Pantsuit Seamstress looked so good on a resume.
posted by instamatic at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.

Well, much of the GOP's religious right base is evangelical, and American evangelicals have had some rather complicated feels toward Catholics over the years. I don't know if this is as relevant as it was back when JFK was running, but when you're down as far in the polls as Trump/Pence are, you probably want to avoid that kind of downside risk.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has the term "reality politics" been coined yet?
posted by valkane at 8:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cuz i got dibs.
posted by valkane at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I went to look at thatmexicanthing.com and gave $10. Those guys are good.
posted by wintermind at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"...Smallest navy..."

Which means...fewer ships...

...Which requires smaller "all hands on deck" drills.

Smaller
hands
SMALL HANDS
posted by wenestvedt at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


That smallest navy thing... It's a total lie, right?
posted by Yowser at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Can someone shed some light on Pence stopping himself from saying he was also raised Catholic? He was rephrasing his life story on the fly with his family saying grace and moved onto finding Jesus in his freshman year. It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.

Evangelicals (his base) don't tend to like us THOSE PAPISTS much. And frankly I think Catholics find it odd that someone raised Catholic would cross over to Evangelical...it feels odd and culture-clashy somehow.
posted by sallybrown at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


If Trump could string a coherent sentence together, he would have already said "the era of reality politics is over."
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Clinton site is hawking this perfect depiction of Tim Kaine's eyebrows
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


LOL on MSNBC pundit saying that Kaine was too aggressive for a campaign "with this much of a lead."
posted by klangklangston at 8:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com

Hey, it's Jess.
posted by dersins at 8:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


The small navy thing is just moronic

One modern missile cruiser could wipe out a fleet of big gun ships

One submarine can incinerate a mid-sized nation

It's just...so stupid
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


More Dana Bash tonight: She repeatedly asks Eric if Trump has paid federal income taxes and he says YES and then quickly YESWEHAVEPAIDTAXESASACOMPANY. Over and over and over.
posted by mochapickle at 8:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


The pervasiveness of the "smallest navy" meme, the idea that modern aircraft carriers should be compared apples-to-apples with First-World-War frigates, is the simplest and most unambiguous proof of the bovine excremental nature of modern conservatism
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

YOU ARE EVIL.
posted by sallybrown at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [132 favorites]


After watching that, and sitting here quietly, I'm becoming more and more annoyed and angry about the thing I just watched. Not necessarily because of the three people involved, but more about the fuckheads at the Commission on Presidential Debates. I'm not old enough to have witnessed any debates before they took over, so my thoughts may be old news. I can't even get them written out in a coherent manner. It suffices to say that I feel that these events are just a spectacle put on by both parties (via the CPD) for some reason. Is it maybe to make voters feel like the candidates are actually trying to change the voters' opinions? Or is it just kibble for the media? If the questions only seem to target the differences between the candidates, resulting in talking points or other oft-heard responses, how can these things be effective? It doesn't help that the participants have the same fucking behaviors in all of the slightly different formats in every fucking cycle. Nor does it help the "moderators" are hamstrung by stupid fucking rules and their scripts. FFS, if this is going to be politics entertainment (cf WWE/sports entertainment) make it interesting! Get different type of moderators in there! How about judges, other politicians, sporting officials, even actors who've played judges or politicians or sporting officials?! Argh, I just don't get it. I think they're an embarrassment.

I suppose this is what happens when you watch without alcohol. Won't make that mistake ever again.
posted by bonje at 8:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


#ThatMexicanThing is kind of awesome right now.
posted by dersins at 8:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Evangelicals (his base) don't tend to like us THOSE PAPISTS much. And frankly I think Catholics find it odd that someone raised Catholic would cross over to Evangelical...it feels odd and culture-clashy somehow.

I went to high school with an evangelical Catholic (they exist; also Charismatic) and her family was deeply weird. Both Catholics and evangelicals think that evangelical Catholics are useful for their money and voting bloc, but think they're at least unorthodox and maybe heretical.
posted by klangklangston at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's just...so stupid

It's a dogwhistle to the military complex that the money train is still a-chugging.
posted by valkane at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN poll of debate watchers, slightly Dem-leaning:

48% Pence won
42% Kaine

Did Kaine do better or worse than expected?
38% better
43% worse

Pence?
67% better
14% worse
posted by Rhaomi at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: The Clinton site is hawking this perfect depiction of Tim Kaine's eyebrows

The smiley with the eyebrow has been part of Tim Kaine's branding for a while.
posted by emelenjr at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mashable has a roundup of the the reaction on social media to "that Mexican thing"
posted by humanfont at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016


"Not necessarily because of the three people involved, but more about the fuckheads at the Commission on Presidential Debates."

Yeah, they need timed mics. Give each exactly equal time based on the slap of a chess clock and cut the opposition mic during right-of-way. Time ends, mic ends, make your point.

But getting the parties to agree to that prior to knowing who their nominees would be? Not likely.
posted by klangklangston at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


>
Didn't Obama nail the "smallest navy in 100 years" line from Romney by saying something like "yeah, we have fewer horses too"... as I recall?

We have fewer horses and bayonets
posted by mrzarquon at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?
Someone else said it more coarsely, but I can't resist: "He pees standing up."
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Horses and Bayonets: Barack Obama mocks Mitt Romney over the military during final debate
posted by Rumple at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh, wow,there's actually a Jess! I had convinced myself that Jess and Meredith were roommates.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


That smallest navy thing... It's a total lie, right?

Not strictly by the number of ships. However, by far the greatest measure of modern naval power is the number and capability of aircraft carriers and submarines. By that standard the US so far outclasses the rest of the world it's ridiculous.
posted by jedicus at 8:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."


That is some christian shade right there.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [70 favorites]


@samsteinhp
CNN’s John King, reporting from a source close to Trump, that the reviews that Pence did better then he did won’t go over well with Trump

*sniff sniff SNIFF*
posted by acidic at 8:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


That was some serious gaslighting from Pence. "Mr. Trump didn't say that," like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.

I felt like screaming, "There! Are! Four! Lights!"
posted by Salieri at 8:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

YOU ARE EVIL.
posted by sallybrown at 11:36 PM on 10/4
Wait...is this...is this a dog whistle? I almost don't know what they look like on this side of the fence.

Me: doing a little happy atheists-for-Kaine wiggle dance over here
posted by instamatic at 8:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


We're also spending a record low on archers and cavaliers. If they'd just train a few hundred thousand more archers, we could have the force projection range of a Ticonderoga class cruiser during refitting.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


not just that Pence did better, but that Pence did better because he refused to defend Trump. Because he's like sooooooooo embarrassed by Trump omg guys let's ditch him in Claire's and go to the food court so he can't find usssss
posted by sallybrown at 8:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


> We have fewer horses and bayonets

Gotta follow up with Obama's next bit "we have these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them."

I'm gonna be super excited to see what roles he takes on in his post presidency position (hopefully with Hillary in office).
posted by mrzarquon at 8:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


ProBirdRights was on a tear:
Step aside "The Donald Duck" I'M live tweet this debate
I GOING TALK OVER YOUR QUESTION I ASSUME IT ABOUT HOW I GOT SO HANDSOME THANK YOU ELAINE GOOD QUESTION
i amire putin and how he gets to be king and how he can ban all cats that doent mean I pro putin (PS CALL ME PUTIN @ 1-800-BIRB)
beaking news bird win debate you can stop watching now I the winner me it over bye
posted by Lexica at 8:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'd spend more on archers. Fuck your cavaliers.
posted by valkane at 8:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Wait...is this...is this a dog whistle? I almost don't know what they look like on this side of the fence.


In a conversation about faith, quoting scripture isn't really a dog whistle, it is a requirement for the conversation. Pence quoted Jeremiah.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The smallest Navy thing could very well play well with the Navy. Not for the obvious "Navy, fuck yeah" reason, but because everyone in the Navy can agree that OPTEMPO these days is miserable on the sailors. 9-month carrier group deployments are routine, double-digits not unheard of. There are more submarine missions than submarines - the guys go to sea, spend an increasingly short time on long days of patching up the aging boat and then right back out. Training? Er, yeah, wedge that in too. People are quitting just to be able to see their families on a regular basis. It's also beating up the ships, deferring and deferring upkeep. How many of the carriers are at sea? That's because they're in the shop again.

So, fewer missions (good luck with that) or more ships. Two ways to make sailors happier.
posted by ctmf at 8:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Love to hear Pence say how he's going to pay for all the new navy toys.

Except only Democrats have to pay for anything because IOKIYAR
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd spend more on archers. Fuck your cavaliers.

Just as long as you stay away from high-tech lure of the crossbow - those Genoese are screwed if it rains.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather, and she got a guy who teaches welding. Polls will be interesting to watch, and by interesting, I mean stock up now on anti-anx medicine.

Fortunately, the real muscle behind the Dem campaign has two more debates with which to maul the GOP Chosen One.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather,

She didn't, though.

Still doesn't.
posted by dersins at 8:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]


You wanna see real muscle? C'mon down here in the welding tanks!
posted by valkane at 8:54 PM on October 4, 2016


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather, and she got a guy who teaches welding. Polls will be interesting to watch, and by interesting, I mean stock up now on anti-anx medicine.


Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?
posted by zutalors! at 8:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I went to high school with an evangelical Catholic (they exist; also Charismatic) and her family was deeply weird.

Yeah, I got exposed to charismatic Catholicism at the age where it latches most easily and I made sure it didn't latch. I'd still call myself a social justice Catholic just without the theological belief stuff.

Anyway, the big Catholic thing is 'whited sephulchres' (Matthew 23:27). That kind of hypocrisy really doesn't go down well.
posted by holgate at 8:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


You're not just that mexican thing to me 🌮❤️
posted by klangklangston at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I wish things had stayed more personal. That's where Kaine is strongest and Pence has a lot of weakness, and the exchange at the very end of the debate highlighted that. I don't in any way think there's anything wrong with being prepared for the debate, I think that's what the job requires, but perhaps a touch more of Kaine-the-welding-teacher would have been nice over Kaine-the-guy-with-five-bullet-points.
posted by zachlipton at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She's not tough enough on her own?"

She's tough, but only Kaine could say "fuck off, your Republican FBI director couldn't make a case, and said so."
posted by klarck at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence won the battle (maybe) but lost the media war tomorrow and the rest of the week trying to gaslight. Kaine was fine, his script was clearly to attack Trump constantly. That was a decision from the campaign I'm sure, so Hilary was on board.

Also the VP debate is not going to move the overall needle at all, except to the extent it goads Trump into flying off the handle again.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?"

Veeps are traditionally the attack dogs — stemming all the way back to when it was unseemly to actually campaign for yourself for president — but you have a point in that Trump is really into disrupting performative political norms. He's like Uber for democracy!
posted by klangklangston at 9:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?

Oh for fucking real? Biden owned two veep debates in a row standing on his head, and that had nooooothing to do with Obama slamming it home to seal the deal? Especially after Obama blew the first debate vs. Romney, and Diamond Joe was right there to mock Ryan all the way back to the House next debate up?

Don't get me wrong. Obama is about as bad-ass a President as you can hope for, but from time to time, even he needs a little help.

I will not hang out in anyone's cognitive bubble and/or echo chamber, sorry.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I.e. Soon it will all be replaced with robots!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:04 PM on October 4, 2016


There is nothing to be gained in trying to say anything new on email. It doesn't bring anyone new to the set of Hillary voters; it just makes us feel good. Don't worry about it. This debate will have very little impact on the election.
posted by humanfont at 9:05 PM on October 4, 2016


Yeah I mean HRC is basically being asked to save the free world essentially on her own and she's doing it very capably.

Biden did have a certain style but Kaine is great for the job of VP, presiding over the Senate, which he is already a part of, and attending State functions, and being a younger vigorous guy should anything happen to HRC.
posted by zutalors! at 9:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The veep debate never moves the polls. Not even '88, when Lloyd Benson pwned that pipsqueak Dan Quayle.
posted by chrchr at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]



I will not hang out in anyone's cognitive bubble and/or echo chamber, sorry.

Not sure how any of that was an answer to my question. Obama/Biden have a certain dynamic, but that's not the template for all campaigns ever, sorry.

Also I disagree with your "Biden won the VP debate to save Obama" view. It was a good bump but Obama closed it in Debate 2 on his own.
posted by zutalors! at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes and we all remember Al Gore that raging Firebrand with a tongue like a steel bullwhip. Oh and Dan Quale "the Anglo Ax Murderer".

lol nah Vps don't matter y'all.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mike Pence is the literal worst. But also he's gone directly up against the Archdiocese of Indianapolis and the Diocese of Fort Wayne/South Bend, primarily over refugees, and has not come out terribly well. He's also staged weird signing ceremonies of offensive bills where he rounds up various faith groups' weirdos and presents them as representative, which has raised a lot of hackles.

Politicians in Indiana have to appeal to Catholics in the north and evangelicals in the south and Pence has failed at the former. He's unusual for a pro-life politician in how very many Catholic organizations have explicitly refused to endorse him over the years.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


That 88 debate is a great example. If anything the victory made Benson look much more presidential than Dukakis. Very similar to tonight. Hmmm.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Biden did have a certain style but Kaine is great for the job of VP

His job was to make a mockery of Pence and Trump while clearly stating the case for Clinton. Today and now, that was his job. How'd he do at it?

Oh god, I hope I am wrong, but the polls will not be good for at least until the next Prez debate.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:10 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine: (truthful statement)

Pence: (shakes head) (lie)

Kaine: (Impassioned statement)

Pence: (changes subject)

Kaine: (changes subject yet again, makes truthful statement)

Pence: (shakes head) (lie) (refutes truth) (thinks about how much he looks like doc savage)

Kaine: (tries to stick to script, keeps stepping on own feet)

Pence: (ya know, doc savage was pretty cool. And women can't be trusted with baby matters. I'm pretty cool. That woman isn't)

Kaine: DEFEND YOUR RUNNING MATE

Pence: (2020, maybe.)
posted by valkane at 9:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


The next prez debate is in 5 days and the news cycle is going to be dominated by continued news of Trump's scandals plus coverage, with clips, of every time Pence lied in the debate about Trump's positions.

I'm sorry, but I think you're talking utter nonsense.
posted by palomar at 9:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


In a conversation about faith, quoting scripture isn't really a dog whistle, it is a requirement for the conversation. Pence quoted Jeremiah.
Ha. No, I didn't mean that he quoted scripture. I meant that he very specifically quoted the second half of this *particular* verse. Carefully leaving the "viper" part unsaid. Leaving the obvious interpretation to the careful listener. Or, if you prefer, "first rate Christian shade" as someone posted upthread.
posted by instamatic at 9:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


People are saying Pence won because a) he's being graded on Trump's curve and b) lying about literally everything Trump said isn't being counted against his score. That said, once every commentator makes their perfunctory acknowledgement that Pence won because he didn't shit himself and cry and start hitting himself, the only topic for them to dig into is all the stuff he nakedly lied about.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine could play his harmonica in the debate and still have done his job.

Pence goes into his denial song and dance, Kaine pulls out harmonica and starts blowing the blues.

Instant win.
posted by mikelieman at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


If the media that comes out of this is Pence won and some of that media talks about why Pence did better than Trump this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This will make Donald mad. Mad Donald is good because he says and does stupid things. If he feels that he needs to prove something he's more liable to screw up.

I dunno. Maybe he'll change and praise Pence and be all happy. Who know with this guy.
posted by Jalliah at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The point many Dems are hammering now is that Pence didn't defend Trump's words, actions or campaign. Pence invented new policy positions on Russia, Syria, NATO and elsewhere that are opposite those of Trump.
posted by humanfont at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Actually, I'm afraid that the debate will be overshadowed by Hurricane Matthew running up the East Coast.
posted by DanSachs at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The conventional wisdom is being formed and it does NOT look good for Team Trump.

NYT: Mr. Kaine challenged Mr. Pence repeatedly to defend statements or proposals made by Donald J. Trump during his chaotic and improvisational presidential campaign, forcing Mr. Pence to filibuster and dodge for minutes on end.

TPM: Kaine himself didn't always come off as well as I might have expected. But he did great for his running mate, sometimes by defending her in ways that are difficult for her to do herself but far more often by reading out crate loads of opposition research on Trump and simply reminding people of all the stuff he's said. ... Pence, on the other hand, came off fairly well in the Kaine v Pence debate. ... But he left his running mate all but undefended. ... He tossed out some obligatory denials, shook his head wearily and that was about it.

Basically, Kaine did his job to the hilt, and Pence looked good by not doing his job.

(Even more deliciously, Pence looking good will probably drive Trump to some new height of rage tweeting, unless they've taken away his phone and changed his Twitter password or something.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kaine more or less followed the shape of his DNC speech, which was press a little too hard early, and then settle into the event as it progressed. He also had the harder task, relative to Pence, which is Clinton-Kaine is running a status quo campaign, and Trump-Pence is running a change campaign. That puts Kaine on the wrong foot from the get go, and you could see him trying to put Pence on his wrong foot with all the insistence on Pence defending Trump's inanity. But not very elegantly, and it didn't really take.

Tough night for Kaine. Easy night for Pence (Gosh, but he's slimy and slippery!). Keep on keeping on.
posted by notyou at 9:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: how do you live with yourself?

Pence: i just lie.
posted by valkane at 9:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Actually, I'm afraid that the debate will be overshadowed by Hurricane Matthew running up the East Coast.

Time is the thing that losing presidential candidates can't afford to give away. If Matthew's impact on the lower east coast stalls the campaign in general, it doesn't help Trump.

It still seems like "Kaine helped Clinton, Pence helped Pence" is the general takeaway, and that doesn't massively help Trump either.
posted by holgate at 9:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"We're also spending a record low on archers and cavaliers. If they'd just train a few hundred thousand more archers, we could have the force projection range of a Ticonderoga class cruiser during refitting."

Trump/Pence: A Return to Slave Galleys

"Yeah I mean HRC is basically being asked to save the free world essentially on her own and she's doing it very capably. "

I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.
posted by klangklangston at 9:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.

Batperson.
posted by dersins at 9:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


For those fond of throwback longforms, I read this GREAT piece today from 1992: "What Hillary Wants," by Gail Sheehy in Vanity Fair. It is filled with bittersweet, uncanny tidbits (including the best explanation of the Clinton marriage and Bill's early infidelities I've ever read) as well as a number of different people mentioning that Hillary could be the first woman president.
posted by sallybrown at 9:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.

That's why she has Kaine. He can be Batman Dad.
posted by Jalliah at 9:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Heh: What Anakin and Donald have in common
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please lord no more "What nerdy thing can we compare this election to" stories Cap'n the engine cannae take nae more of this!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ahem: Jennifer Palmieri of the Clinton campaign on Twitter: "Can confirm that @HillaryClinton is really proud of @timkaine!"
posted by sallybrown at 9:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


"That's why she has Kaine. He can be Batman Dad."
Cain is one of the world's premier assassins, whose victims have included some of the most famous and powerful people on the planet. He trained the young Bruce Wayne with some of the skills that he would use as Batman, although Bruce has never used such techniques and has since surpassed Cain in ability. Regarding his training, Batman explained, "Knowing how to kill doesn't mean you must kill."
posted by klangklangston at 9:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence did a good job of convincing my coworkers to vote for trump and still feel like they have an excuse to think of themselves as reasonable human beings . But they were gonna vote for trump regardless.

On the other hand, I think kaine scored some points (awkward points but points nonetheless) with people who might possibly be actually on the fence.
posted by ian1977 at 9:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If the media that comes out of this is Pence won and some of that media talks about why Pence did better than Trump this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This will make Donald mad. Mad Donald is good because he says and does stupid things."


Oh please please please let this happen. Please let Trump get jealous of Pence. I'm hoping Kellyanne says something like, "See Donald? That's what a good debater looks like. You could learn a lot from Mike."
posted by Euphorbia at 9:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


small navy

I know! We've only got one three-masted frigate left and don't even get me started on dreadnaughts!
posted by ckape at 9:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Pence did a good job of convincing my coworkers to vote for trump and still feel like they have an excuse to think of themselves as reasonable human beings . But they were gonna vote for trump regardless. "

Yeah, but nobody thought Hitler was an asshole when they voted for him.
posted by klangklangston at 9:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine's job was to generate post-debate media about Trump where Pence serves as the feed and Trump as the punchline. Again: he took one for the team.
posted by holgate at 9:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


As far as I know we still have the biggest navy in the world, and the biggest military, even if it's arguably smaller than it was at the height of World War 2.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We had bigger phones in 1916 too.
posted by middlethird at 9:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


The complete rundown of Pence's lies (TPM).
posted by Superplin at 9:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


As far as I know we still have the biggest navy in the world

Carrier battle groups: the US has many, the rest of the world combined has "less than many".
posted by holgate at 9:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


After watching the hot takes it seems like Tim Kaine did no harm overall and might have helped a bit with women and Latinxs on reproductive choice and immigration. That's all I really need from a veep debate I suppose. I wanted Kaine to do better--his speeches are much more relatable and follow logically without constant sprinkles of non sequiturs.
posted by xyzzy at 9:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


One point I wish Kaine had been able to wedge in, when he brought up Trump's "Mount Rushmore" of Putin,
Kim Jong-Un, Gadhafi, and Saddam Hussein, is that the one guy in North Korea of whom Trump says he's "got to give him credit" isn't any of the Christians who have died for practicing their religion or anyone else who has given their lives defying a totalitarian state, but rather is the most powerful guy in the country who was handed the position by his father and grandfather who for generations killed anyone who would not worship them as living gods.

And the credit he feels compelled to bestow is admiration for how Kim, from that position of inherited ultimate power within the country, successfully murdered a bunch of his underlings.
posted by XMLicious at 9:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Was Kaine doing an extended impression of coked up Trump for like half an hour and then realised it wasn't working and pivoted?
posted by ethansr at 9:49 PM on October 4, 2016


Facebook is already littered with Politico, Washington Post, etc posts saying "Fact Check: Pence was incorrect about [X]" on a wide range of different subjects (who committed the Paris terrorist attacks, how Pence characterized the AP report on the Clinton Foundation, whether he called Putin a stronger leader than Obama). I predict the narrative of this debate will change overnight from "Pence was smooth" to "Pence lied."
posted by sallybrown at 9:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


> Kaine is rather like Hubert H. Humphry, Pence is a lot like Lloyd Benson. He looks a lot an older Putin.

Speaking of Humphrey, here are a couple of good pieces to show to any still undecided former Bernie supporters:

The lousy reason I didn't vote in 1968 — and why Sanders supporters shouldn't fall for it. I thought there was no difference between Richard Nixon and Hubert Humphrey. I was wrong.

3 Reasons to Vote for Hillary Clinton That Have Nothing To Do with Hillary Clinton: We can't ignore the ways that having a Democrat in the White House matters.
posted by homunculus at 9:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sure, compared to Trump, Pence looked able...

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

...but able doesn't beat Kaine.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [95 favorites]


The US is the only rank 1 blue-water navy: capable of multiple and sustained power projection missions globally. The problem really isn't "not enough ships", it's overuse of the ones we have.
posted by ctmf at 9:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


cf. Todd-Lindberg classification system
posted by ctmf at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2016


The other somewhat Catholic point is that "you denied me three times" is definitely a thing, and Pence was denying Trump all kinds of times.
posted by holgate at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


I predict the narrative of this debate will change overnight from "Pence was smooth" to "Pence lied."

I sure as hell hope so. During the first 2012 debate I was laughing out loud at the stuff Romney was having to make up to be able to respond to Obama smoothly and aggressively, but then no one in the media, or even here for the most part, seemed to consider it material. But the media seems much more into the fact-checking this time, and primed to be vigilant thanks to Trump, so here's crossing my fingers...
posted by XMLicious at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


If only someone had smuggled a rooster into the auditorium.
posted by ckape at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


My dream scenario is that Trump hears cable news repeat the theme about "Pence was out there for Pence" and decides he's been betrayed.
posted by you're a kitty! at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The other somewhat Catholic point is that "you denied me three times" is definitely a thing, and Pence was denying Trump all kinds of times.

Kaine: "Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I can’t imagine how you can defend your running mate’s position on one issue after the next, and in all six cases he’s refused to defend his running mate."
posted by sallybrown at 10:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


I was going through the 538 debate liveblog and wow is this depressing:

It has been 425 days since the first debate of the 2016 election.
posted by ckape at 10:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I was really uncomfortable watching this debate. I think while Kaine's performance didn't live up to my expectations, my expectations don't really matter to the Clinton campaign, I'm already on board. I expected him to go after Pence's own record more, but by constantly having Pence fail to defend what Trump has said, or to lie about what Pence himself has said get's you a lot of clips showing what a liar Pence is and how Trump is indefensible. I'm also loving all the spin about how Trump's ego will be hurt by Pence doing a better job.

I do wish Pence's homophobia had been taken to task, it's reprehensible.
posted by airish at 10:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know I'm late to this but the Pence 'we need a broad shouldered man' thing is just gross and sexist

Chicago is the "City of the Big Shoulders." Chicago. Where Hillary Clinton is from. Maybe it's a secret endorsement?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bookmark and thinking about needling Donald via Twitter about how much better Pence was at debating and how Pence showed such disloyalty by not defending his running mate.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We had bigger phones in 1916 too

We also had Henry Ford spouting flim-flam and running for office without anyone asking him a year and half later, on May Day, 1918. The senate seat was to be filled for a year and he would run for president.
Ford was put to the small battery of basics concerning the geopolitical topics of the day.

Like a game, the Catonian moralists could hardly resist.
posted by clavdivs at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016


My dream scenario is that Trump hears cable news repeat the theme about "Pence was out there for Pence" and decides he's been betrayed


god help me I have the same dream.
Thinking of staying up long enough to hear what Trump's Id has to say at 3AM.
If Trump's Id flamed Pence I'd have the best night's sleep since just after the democratic convention.
posted by Euphorbia at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016


A number of people, including Megyn Kelly, are mixing up former Clinton speechwriter (and hilarious Tweeter) Jon Lovett with hilarious comedian Jon Lovitz.
posted by sallybrown at 10:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Just stumbled across this at the bottom of the Wikipedia article United States vice-presidential debate, 2008:
Say it Ain't So, Joe, opera composed by Curtis K. Hughes based on the vice-presidential debates.
posted by XMLicious at 10:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: "Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I can’t imagine how you can defend"

Sing a song of sixpence
Pocket full of lies
posted by clavdivs at 10:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high pundit's table, and Pence was following at a distance. And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Pence sat down among them. Then a press pool reporter, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” But he denied it, saying, “Little Katy, I do not know him.” And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Pence said, “Crooked Hillary, I am not.” And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is orange.” But Pence said, “Kaine, I do not know what you are talking about.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. And the Trump turned and looked at Pence. And Pence remembered the saying of the Trump, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me - like a dog - three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.
posted by sallybrown at 10:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [78 favorites]


And if Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say, to be involved in this barbaric attack on Aleppo, the United States of America should use military force to strike the targets of the Assad regime, and prevent Aleppo.

Telling them our plans? I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


A number of people, including Megyn Kelly, are mixing up former Clinton speechwriter (and hilarious Tweeter) Jon Lovett with hilarious comedian Jon Lovitz.

The ratings would be so much better for these things if they featured the stinging blades of the windmill.
posted by zachlipton at 10:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please notice, also, that none of the takes on this debate are about it being bad for Clinton: Pence's attempts to attack her were not memorable and did not gain any narrative traction.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


David Perry:
I wrote this before Pence was a VP candidate. Stand by it. Pence wants to use "the vulnerable" to attack women's rights.
posted by Lexica at 10:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mike Pence is literally the worst governor of Indiana ever and I include in that assessment Ninian Edwards who governed it as a territory and sent the US Army to burn Peoria to the ground in a fit of pique when he couldn't capture Shawnee war leader Tecumseh in 1812-13 and Congress was like pretty pissed off about it and the resulting litigation lasted until the 1980s.

Well, all right, Pence is second-worst, but only until someone gives Pence the power to turn the US Army against US citizens, then he's clearly going Ninian Edwards all up in this shit IN ADDITION TO radically mismanaging the state.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome? He's live tweeting it. You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome? He's live tweeting it. Knock, Knock. Who's there ? Philip Glass. Philip Glass Who ? Knock, Knock. Android or Iphone, Lovett or Lovitz...
posted by y2karl at 11:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


In the midst of all the sudden-flip-flop sabre rattling against Russia, when "the cyber" was under discussion, Pence talked about "asymmetrical enemies". This wouldn't be a reference to Russia, the "asymmetrical" part refers to an opponent who is not a nation-state. The mysterious 400 pound man reappears.

(Or maybe this time Trump is imagining a lone wolf hacker whose distinguishing feature is very large hands, and his own hands being dwarfed by those of the enemy is the asymmetry he's thinking about.)
posted by XMLicious at 11:10 PM on October 4, 2016


It looks and sounds like some weird deleted scene from the Watchmen movie; I can't imagine either of these guys as a potential POTUS; they both have the same low tone monotone voice, one has a tinge of whine; the other has some unitelligible baritone to his. An hour and a half of my life; to be remembered for having all the content of a can of air.
posted by buzzman at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently dreams are coming true. The same source that said Pence lost with Trump also stated that Trump can't stand to be upstaged. Pence made a pretty strategic move here, betting that in four years he can just tell people throwing Trump in his face that he didn't defend him, only signing onto the ticket as a sane and moderating force for the sake of the country. You watch, it will be Saint Pence, savior of the GOP, in 2020.
posted by xyzzy at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"only signing onto the ticket as a sane and moderating force for the sake of the country"

I know that's the play Pence is trying to make, but he's going to be best known for being Trump's running mate and second best known for his catastrophic RFRA that made national headlines painting him as an anti-LGBT bigot (which he is) and badly damaged his relationships with the business community and with Indiana donors. Then he reversed himself under intense national pressure, infuriating his evangelical base. Then, wildly unpopular and facing a loss in what ought to have been an easy GOP gubernatorial race in Indiana, he bailed the fuck out to campaign with Trump. He has no national or state platform once this campaign is over and has burned all possible bridges. (Not to mention his economic record in Indiana is just abysmal and under him it has hemorrhaged jobs.)

Although if the GOP wants to run in 2020 or 2024 a dude whose signature achievement is fighting gay marriage for 20 minutes before collapsing like a Trump casino ... uh, good luck with that, I guess?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


And upon the Rock of Pence Trump will build his Church...

Weren't we just saying in the other thread that Trump buys his concrete from the mob? I get that Trump is unhappy Pence wouldn't defend him, but we're not talking about Pence being a literal part of the foundation, are we...?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: CLINTON’S CLOSE TIES TO PUTIN DESERVE SCRUTINY
posted by kirkaracha at 11:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"

What the actual fuck.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?

I like Clinton. I would vote for her regardless. But I think the margin for Kaine at this point would be higher against Trump, and that's a deal-breaker.
The margin of Kaine vs Pence... I don't know.
The rumors up thread about Trump delegating his duties (all or in part) to the vice president are troubling. Pence didn't run for president, he shouldn't have the job.
posted by TrishaU at 12:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


...The thing is, this ramshackle campaign, following a ramshackle business career, has exposed his flaws and failures to the world and, more importantly, to the people he will brush up against for the rest of his life. To them he is now officially a joke. I suspect he knows this. And if his thin skin on minor matters is any indication, he will be lashing out with even more vitriol. He is a mad jumble of a man, with a slapdash of a campaign and talking points dredged from the dark corners at the bottom of the Internet. I don’t think he will get to the White House, but just the fact that his carny act has gotten so far along the road will leave the path with a permanent orange stain. Trump, more than even the most craven politicians or entertainers, is a bottomless reservoir of need and desire for attention. He lives off crowd approval. And at a certain point that will dim, as it always does to people like him, and the cameras will turn to some other American novelty. When that attention wanes, he will be left with his press clippings, his dyed hair, his fake tan, and those tiny, tiny fingers.
DONALD TRUMP: THE UGLY AMERICAN*
*(With apologies to William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.)
posted by y2karl at 12:13 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Donald Trump's net worth is down $800m, according to Forbes
posted by XMLicious at 12:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Huffington post now: Mike Pence To America: Trump Never Said Those Things He Said

The Onion last year: Indiana Governor Insists New Law Has Nothing To Do With Thing It Explicitly Intended To Do
posted by ckape at 12:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [34 favorites]


Although if the GOP wants to run in 2020 or 2024 a dude whose signature achievement is fighting gay marriage for 20 minutes before collapsing like a Trump casino ... uh, good luck with that, I guess?
I think the success of this strategy will greatly depend on what lessons, if any, the GOP takes away from this election's post mortem. After the demographic problems revealed in 2008 and 2012 it seemed like Republicans were willing to become more measured in their approach to social issues in order to appear like they've arrived in this century intellectually if not yet in spirit. Then all of that hard work got thrown away with the crazy field of crazy candidates. But I am very concerned about the GOP, even as a democrat, because I feel like I can't depend on them to be somewhat reasonable and then follow through. I do not want Pence to represent the future of the GOP. At all. But against Trump he seems normal or even acceptable despite his hard right social Conservatism and despicable record.
posted by xyzzy at 12:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


The NYT has a story on @onlxn and his Trump dialogues: The Trump Dialogues, From a Parody Universe. Yes, this is an actual real news article, in the New York Times, about a guy on Twitter who writes fake Trump dialogues. 2016, huh?
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I went to bed instead of watching. I crowdsourced my watching to you people. And you did the best you could, I suppose. But it sounds like Kaine's performance was pretty mediocre at best.
posted by thelonius at 2:34 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Eh, I think the way to put it is that Pence showed up to win the debate while Kaine showed up to win the election.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [44 favorites]


I will think of it as such. No cause for despair.
posted by thelonius at 3:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


via /r/politics

Pence denies he's part of an 'insult-driven' campaign, Trump tweets insults

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 9h9 hours ago
"@Jnelson52722: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies"

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 9h9 hours ago
"@elisac006: @nycmia @realDonaldTrump I agree. Kaine looks like a fool!!"
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [19 favorites]


I stayed up late (in the UK) to watch the thing. My opinion, for whatever it's worth:

1) Ugh, what a godawful mess. Neither one sounded remotely interested in answering the questions being asked.

2) That being said, Pence came off better in the first half, when Kaine was being irritating, and Kaine came off better in the second half, when Pence started pretending he had never heard of this "Donald Trump" fellow.

3) Ultimately, it's not going to matter and no one's going to care.
posted by kyrademon at 3:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Was Kaine doing an extended impression of coked up Trump for like half an hour and then realised it wasn't working and pivoted?
I think he was setting up for the news cycle today: "yeah, you like it when Trump does this to Hillary. NOW do you get how indefensible this behavior is?"

Because how can anyone make the claim that Kaine was interruptier than Trunp? Yeah, they can't.
posted by instamatic at 3:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Turns out ThatMexicanThing.com was not registered by Clinton's team, but by a quick-thinking fellow in Portland named Danilo Alfaro. Well played!
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


Eh, I think the way to put it is that Pence showed up to win the debate while Kaine showed up to win the election.

Yeah, Pence was playing to a few PA counties while Kaine played to not-white-dudes. Wonder which one is the bigger voting bloc?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


AndrewInDC: "I would be a fan of candidates wearing solid, neutral colors like soccer goalies."
I would be a fan of candidates wearing colors like in the soccer goalie kits of the 90's.
posted by brokkr at 3:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


How come Kaine wore a blue tie and Pence a red one?
posted by CCBC at 3:49 AM on October 5, 2016


Mike Pence is literally the worst governor of Indiana ever and I include in that assessment Ninian Edwards who governed it as a territory and sent the US Army to burn Peoria to the ground in a fit of pique when he couldn't capture Shawnee war leader Tecumseh in 1812-13 and Congress was like pretty pissed off about it and the resulting litigation lasted until the 1980s.

Yeah, but was he supported by, and granted a State charter to, the Ku Klux Klan, went on to offer sitting governor Warren McCray a $10,000 bribe to support the Klan agenda in Indiana, and was, eventually, swept into office on a pro-Klan agenda like Gov. Ed Johnson?

I mean...Peoria is in Illinois, so...y'know...whatever.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Kaine's goal was to force Pence into a bunch of blatant lies that will provide fodder for attack ads and cable-news talking points, then he did his job. Given how many votes the VP debate usually ends up swaying (zero plus-or-minus zero) that was probably the right strategy.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [33 favorites]


Yeah, Zarquon. I feel like they came off about equal and that few minds were changed as a result of the debate itself—athough I do worry that Pence will have reassured some wavering Republicans who were getting a bit concerned about Trump's inflammatory and unrealistic positions. The sheen of reasonableness that Pence smeared over his running mate's words is very thin though, and I think Kaine set things up for that to be thoroughly deconstructed over the coming week. His repeated insistence that you can "go to the tape" to see what Trump has actually said will hopefully set folks up to start doing just that, and perhaps this week will be a sort of Greatest Hits montage of Trump saying absolutely horrible shit. Folks who didn't tune into the campaign until last week would do well to see some of those things brought up again.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:09 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I didn't watch and based on what I've read here, I don't want to.

I haven't seen much of Kaine. When he was picked I thought it was a pity it was a boring, blue-dog "safe" choice and not Warren, but I had trusted that Clinton would have carefully chosen somebody amply competent to kick the ass of such a transparent moral and intellectual fraud as Pence, a bigot of no accomplishment who only got the VP pick because nobody else was interested in hitching their name to Benito. At the very least I thought Kaine would be as dependable as Biden. It is very disappointing to see that by all accounts Kaine failed to rise to the occasion.

Unless... unless he deliberately threw the debate to make Trump jealous of his own running mate!! Yes, I'm going to go with that. Masterstroke!
posted by moorooka at 4:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Huge grain of salt time, but this is supposedly a conservative with a source inside Trump's campaign, @ReaganBattalion:
Source working for the Trump campaign: Trump on @mike_pence not defending him tonight, "There will be a price to pay." #VPDebate

More from source within Trump campaign: Trump on Pence not defending him: "Melania was right." (Was not very excited about picking Pence.)

Trump is banging on the table...

The information coming out of Trump tower tonight is like a very dark comedy movie. #VPDebate

"I have never seen him so pissed off."

Actual quote from Trump tower.
#VPDebate
posted by zombieflanders at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [89 favorites]


Turns out ThatMexicanThing.com was not registered by Clinton's team, but by a quick-thinking fellow in Portland named Danilo Alfaro. Well played!

Gosh I hope he is of Mexican descent it really would be such sweet justice. Either way tho, great job.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Twitter claims "'Whipped out that Mexican thing' is the only VP debate quote you need "

It's a good thing our side is much much better at media manipulation this cycle. A most competent campaign would be trying to dominate the news with Pence Won, instead of being shackled by their top of the ticket's hubris and jealousy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think better debaters than Kaine would have found it damn hard to nail that jello to the wall.

As mentioned, Kaine did manage to get Pence to defend Trump by lying about Trump's public words and deeds and the campaign will make hay with it.

If it's true that this has rattled trump and gone towards alienating him from pence that may be victory enough.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.
posted by zug at 10:09 PM on October 4
TFW you worry that Trump/Pence "talking over the female" (either candidate or moderator) is actually part of their campaign strategy to insinuate to voters that women "aren't strong enough to stand up to big shouldered men. I mean, do you really want a *woman* at the negotiating table with all those strongmen?" and then you worry that you might have to turn in your woman card just for thinking that.
posted by instamatic at 4:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


omg the fucking psychodrama.

@JohnJHarwood: "Trump adviser on debate after Pence passed up opportunities to defend him: "Pence won overall, but lost with Trump""

The backstage drama at Trump Tower is only getting better:

@JohnJHarwood: “more from adviser on Trump reaction to strong Pence debate following poor Trump showing last week: "he can't stand to be upstaged"”

Between getting overshadowed by his running mate and slipping 35 spots on the Forbes 400 wealthiest list, Trump took a one-two punch of narcissistic injury in the past twenty-four hours. Watch closely to see how he'll lash out in the next couple of days...
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

What the performance imbalance does do is set up the horse-race media (and the large swath of voters who think like they do and enjoy the competitive aspect of the race) to be hard on Trump in the next debate. "Let's see if DJT can live up to the calm smooth style of his VP whoops he cannot now we can hammer him on it but we're being 'fair' so wheee". Again very similar to Lloyd Bentsen in 88. Bentsen was picked to toughen up the ticket, bring in Southern voters and military folks. But all his presence in the narrative did was allow the media to keep smashing Dukakis by comparing him, not to the similarly Yankee wonky Bush, but to his supposed surrogate.

For every conservative who will use Pence as cover there is one whose disgust with Trump's vulgarity will be thrown into high relief against his running mate's "decency and aw shucks humility". It's a wash.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

Doesn't matter anyway, not even the media cares what the VPs do when they're not debating. But the big story of the first debate was how Trump let his anger run away with him despite starting off relatively coached and on-message. If he starts pissed off on Sunday....
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hey, thanks, CNN!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


I believe @reaganbattalion, I've been following him for a while and he's pretty solid. Also, Trump had to be fought, hard, to choose Pence in the first place, and has been resentful of him for a while. But no one with even a smidgen of sanity can defend the shit that Trump has been saying, and it's unreasonable to expect them to.

Some other great hits from Republican Twitter:

Erick Eriksen: "Boy, I could vote for the Donald Trump who exists in Pence's mind. I just can't vote for the actual Donald Trump."

Rick Wilson: "Now I want to meet the Trump from Earth 2 that Pence kept describing"

@Trump_truther "Mike Pence looks a bit like a Ken doll, doesn't he? Like if an Ken doll got old, had gray hair, wore a suit, and hated women in the military."

Evan McMullin was also tearing it up pretty well, calling out Trump's "police state fantasy", and pointing out when Pence was lying.
posted by corb at 4:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [49 favorites]


Hillary could just drop a "not even Pence would defend you."
posted by drezdn at 5:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [89 favorites]


As some presumably small portion of Americans sat through a dull debate between the Republican and Democratic vice-presidential nominees on Tuesday night, a far more interesting drama was unfolding within the Libertarian ticket. VP candidate Bill Weld told the Boston Globe that he plans to focus exclusively on attacking Donald Trump for the remainder of the campaign — essentially admitting that running mate Gary Johnson can not become president. (NYMag)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:09 AM on October 5, 2016 [44 favorites]


CNN expands on reports of post–VP debate unhappiness with Pence from within "Trump World" (which sounds like the worst theme park ever):
JOHN KING (CNN): "I want to give you one insight from somebody inside Trump world, who is in the inner circle in Trump world, who said that he does not think this is going to go down terribly well with the Donald Trump. Even though the Trump campaign is brushing up statements with all conservatives across the country praising Mike Pence. They said Donald Trump is watching the reviews and he's hearing Mike Pence won, but he didn't defend Donald Trump, and that Hillary Clinton and Mike Pence are better debaters than Donald Trump. Some people think that might not sit well with the boss."
Incidentally, has any modern presidential campaign been as prone to leaking as Trump's? In-fighting in the inner circle has provided the media with a steady stream of stories unnamed sources. Most recently, after Trump's disastrous debate, he held a conference call last week with his aides/advisors to chew them out about anonymously leaking to the press - news of which was promptly leaked to the press from "a source familiar with the call".
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


One thing that was interesting was that Pence kept bringing up Iran and the whole nuclear deal thing. But didn't the negotiations for that begin after Hillary Clinton left the position of Secretary of State? So whatever criticisms he had, good or bad, didn't apply.
posted by I-baLL at 5:27 AM on October 5, 2016


Clinton has claimed credit for laying the groundwork that would ultimately produce the deal, so I'd say that one's legit.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I hope Donald does what he did last week and says something every day for the next couple of days to keep the 'Pence wouldn't defend Trump, Trump angry?' speculation in the news cycle.

I hope media leading up to the Town Hall speculates about whether Trump can do better that the last debate and better then Pence. Bonus points for Pence would make a better Candidates/President

I hope the media makes it into a feud story.

I hope Donald fixates on showing the Pence guy who's , who's and takes up his own defence and starts relitigating that shit he's said and 'explaining' it. Just like he did with Machado. Donald lets hear about the Mexican Thing again!

I hope Donald will 'break' in the next couple of days and regale world with what he REALLY thinks about Pence and how he is so much better then his VP.

I hope the leaks from Trumps camp about him being more pissed off then they've ever seen are true and that the campaign has to expend lots of energy trying to control Donald to keep him from doing the stupid.
posted by Jalliah at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


The cuts and soundbites I'm seeing this morning really cast Kaine in a better light. Most of the interrupty, caffinated Kaine we saw in real time last night just doesn't come through in any of the highlight reels.
posted by klarck at 5:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Given that DJT decided to play with his own shit during his debate, not really surprised that Pence looked relatively good.

Seriously, if I cared about Trump aside from his ascendency to power would be an existential threat to humanity, if I was a family member I would honest to God a) stage an intervention and/or b) Get them to go to a doctor. And I mean that literally. It would be *something's finally got to be done about Uncle Donnie* time.

It also just fascinating to me that Pence, who, while he may be Skeletor, seems to understand what a superficial representation of sane looks like and yet, and yet, and yet he agreed to be Trump's VP. But then, I can't understand McCain, Cruz, and Ryan doing what seems to be the political equivalent of making sweet love to a dirty, rancid diaper.
posted by angrycat at 5:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence agreed to be Trump's VP because he's so unpopular in Indiana that the consensus is he had nowhere else to go.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, Pence was going to get spanked HARD in Indiana so jumping to the VP slot for Trump not only gave him an out from a humiliating defeat but gave him a shot at the Presidency.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:48 AM on October 5, 2016


Here's the Clinton video on Pence vs Trumps words. Results.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [74 favorites]


Obviously, there's a lot I disagree with in this, but it's interesting. From the Christian Post, Hillary Clinton is the Best Choice for Voters Against Abortion. The key points:
It's no coincidence that abortions go up when Republicans are in charge and down when Democrats are. The two biggest indicators a woman will have an abortion are that she is poor (75% of women who have abortions make less than $23,000 and half make less than $11,000), and had an unintended pregnancy (half of U.S. pregnancies are unintended, and 43% end in abortion).

Want to guess which political party is more effective at reducing poverty and unwanted pregnancies? I'll give you a hint. It's not the "pro-life" Party that in this last Congressional session alone fought to cut medical care for poor mothers and children, food programs for kids, and contraception coverage and access for women.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [141 favorites]


The Republicans' execrable anti-Kaine attack ad, where they say he's unfit to be VP because he represented accused criminals in court, turns out to be not just unamerican but plagiarized.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


If it ain't fixed, don't break it.
posted by y2karl at 6:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Stephen Colbert Is Fuzzing Happy The VP Debate Is Over

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]



This is my favourite headline so far.

Business Insider: Mike Pence 'won' the debate by pretending Donald Trump doesn't exist

From the news I've come across online there it so far seems to be a lot of "Pence narrowly won but..." type coverage.
posted by Jalliah at 6:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


In case anyone hasn't yet had their fill of Vice Presidents: All Candidates Debate 5, featuring Clinton's running mate

I watched this last night before going to bed and when I woke up in the middle of the night to pee I realized I was humming the (revised) Marco Rubio song. It's happening again.
posted by phunniemee at 6:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Debate moderator outsourced all of her questions on the economy to a group of fiscal conservatives
Quijano did not ask either candidate about their plans to foster job growth. She did not broach the subject of trade. Or ask about home ownership. Or wages. Or job training. Or poverty.

Instead, she asked just two questions about economic policy, and she explicitly attributed both of them to the “nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.” The first asked if the two vice presidential candidates are “concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country.” The second warned of a grim future, “when the Social Security Trust Funds run out of money.”

So who is the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget? They are probably the leading advocacy group promoting the idea that federal deficits are out of control and shrinking them should be a top priority. Their board members include both Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, co-chairs of a government commission that tried and failed to advance various proposals supported by deficit hawks in 2010. Pete Peterson, a billionaire who is probably the nation’s leading funder of anti-deficit advocacy, is also a board member.

To be sure, there are many people — especially in elite media circles — who share the Committee’s view that deficits are a pressing issue. But Quijano’s decision to focus on this to the exclusion of all other economic policy questions is odd. It is especially odd because the case for aggressive deficit reduction is weaker today than it has been in years.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [64 favorites]


Doktor Zed Incidentally, has any modern presidential campaign been as prone to leaking as Trump's? In-fighting in the inner circle has provided the media with a steady stream of stories unnamed sources.

Campaigns I'm not sure about, but actual presidencies, yes. The constant infighting leaks from the Trump campaign are eerily similar to the Reagan administration's constant infighting leaks. And I suspect for basically the same reason: the candidate/president is an empty suit who doesn't actually do any of the work he's supposed to be doing, and so has attracted multiple competing factions who essentially hate each other and wish to use the power vacuum at the top to promote their own agendas at the expense of the other factions.
posted by sotonohito at 6:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [36 favorites]


From the news I've come across online there it so far seems to be a lot of "Pence narrowly won but..." type coverage.

Yeah, I mostly agree with The Gist's take: Pence "won," insofar as he stayed cool and looked good, but the clear outward appearance is that he had to basically dismiss Trump to do it.

But personally, I think he'll "get away with it," because what he said is much less important in the court of public opinion than how he said it.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


My hunch is that most people didn't watch, and most people who started watching turned it off after 15 minutes. So what matters is the post-debate scuttlebutt, and "Pence won, but..." is probably just as bad for Trump as "Pence lost." I don't think this shifts the momentum in the way that Trump would need to shift it.

So yeah, not panicking or even particularly worried. On to the next thing.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


TL;DW for the VP debate: nothing happened.

By which I mean, lots happened, but nothing that will have any impact on the election. Neither candidate said anything so monumentally stupid or offensive that it will get even a single news cycle of attention, both managed to look at least sort of, vaguely, competent.

For people like me who had been seeing Pence as the second coming of Dan Quayle it was a revelatory disappointment, apparently Pence isn't actually as stupid as he seems to be.
posted by sotonohito at 6:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think Pence is evil, not stupid.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


The Marco Rubio song ? I have yet to hear that. What comes to mind is sung to the tune of the theme to the Garry Shandling Show:
This.is the Marco Rubio Song!
This is the Marco Rubio song!
Third line down, it gets too long...
posted by y2karl at 6:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


My expert analysis of the VP debate was that it was a good game but Showalter really missed a chance to compete with the Blue Jays by sending in Duensing and Jimenez to pitch the 11th when the best reliever in baseball was ready to go in the bullpen.

I'm obsessed with this election, but the VP debate was about as compelling as syndicated reruns of Small Wonder.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Here's the Clinton video on Pence vs Trumps words. Results.

Oh, that's lovely. Just perfect. The CNN version was a little long, but this one is edited with a razor blade.
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I had a panic dream about the election last night, worrying over if Pence came across as too believable and if that would turn the tide of the election. I didn't even watch the debate last night! I just followed the thread.

When will this madness end? My liver can only take so much more of this.
posted by PearlRose at 6:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


This just in, Donnie has a word with Mike Pence....
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on October 5, 2016


I just realized the timing of Pence and Trump flipping on Russia - right after Assange fell through and Guccifer 2.0 dropped a hot pile of nothing.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


'tho Donnie is more Montana Max than Wilson Fisk, of course...
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just realized the timing of Pence and Trump flipping on Russia

Trump has flipped too? What have a missed.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 AM on October 5, 2016


I think Pence is evil, not stupid.

I live in Indiana, trust me, he's both. He scored so many own goals (religious freedom act, for example) that the business-oriented Republicans in Indianapolis wanted nothing to do with him. He wasn't raising nearly the funds he should have been. Folks were just sitting out. He almost lost his last reelection, and was on track to lose this one before he jumped ship. Incumbent Republican governors do not lose reelections in Indiana unless they're particularly incompetent.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


Unless... unless he deliberately threw the debate to make Trump jealous of his own running mate!! Yes, I'm going to go with that. Masterstroke!

I'm not going to attribute the debate to nth-dimensional chess or anything, but the Clinton campaign has repeatedly said and done things that indicate that they believe using Trump's (and Pence's) own words against them is a winning strategy. Judging by the ads starting to come out, Kaine did what he was supposed to do. If the punditry is already turning from "Pence wins by not turning into Nyarlathotep on-stage" to "wow, he lied to our faces about stuff we have on videotape," and the electorate agrees, then it's at best a wash (when they need a win) and at worst another hit when they don't have the time to recover.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


I remain cautiously optimistic that Hillary Clinton will win, but, boy, do we need to have a national conversation about American Democracy after this. Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

And yet here we are, a hair's breadth away from a dictator. And all it took to stop it was the most qualified presidential candidate in history coming off the most effective president in living memory, the total lack of institutional support from the candidate's own party, a civil war in conservative media, relentless self-sabotage by the candidate himself, and the refusal of every other living president to vote for the candidate.
posted by maxsparber at 6:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [119 favorites]


Trump has flipped too? What have a missed.

Maybe not a flip as much as Trump Brand Word Salad, I was thinking of his "we need to talk about Hillary's Russia connections" thing.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


The small navy thing is just moronic

One modern missile cruiser could wipe out a fleet of big gun ships

One submarine can incinerate a mid-sized nation

It's just...so stupid

Well, if you're playing as the Americans in Civilization 4, your missile cruisers have an attack strength of 40 against a destroyer's defense strength of 24, so you'll probably win the first fight or two, but then you'll have to retreat for repairs. A decent fleet of 19th-century ironclads could, with the proper Zap-Brannigan-style tactics, take one down.

Oh my god you guys. I've finally figured it out. Trump isn't playing Diplomacy, he's playing Civ, and he thinks cultural or space wins are for wimps. You get major diplomatic bonuses with other warmongers if you saber-rattle. Switching to fascism cuts all your military upkeep costs drastically. You can renege freely on treaties as long as your military is so overpowered that they fear retaliating. The only way to stop the spread of Islam is to close your borders and switch to theocracy. Gandhi, behind that calm exterior, is secretly building a nuclear arsenal to annihilate us all.

This is the most plausible explanation I have yet seen for 2016.
posted by Mayor West at 6:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [48 favorites]


I remain cautiously optimistic that Hillary Clinton will win, but, boy, do we need to have a national conversation about American Democracy after this. Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

And yet here we are, a hair's breadth away from a dictator. And all it took to stop it was the most qualified presidential candidate in history coming off the most effective president in living memory, the total lack of institutional support from the candidate's own party, a civil war in conservative media, relentless self-sabotage by the candidate himself, and the refusal of every other living president to vote for the candidate.

The Republican Party is a failed state. That said, I think a generic male Democrat would be crushing Trump right now. Hillary, due to a combination of 25+ years of relentless demonization by the right, together with being the first woman running for President, starts at a significant handicap. Pair that with the fact that she just isn't at her strongest when she's campaigning; she's better when she governs.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

The black experience in the United States would seem to indicate this assumption is manifestly incorrect.
posted by My Dad at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.

See this freaks me out. I get the intent of why he would do it but right now but are we sure that in the states where it matters that enough Johnson voters would move to Clinton and not to Trump?
posted by Jalliah at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Daily Show - Vice Presidential Debate Wrap-Up

Best bit is the last one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

How soon they forget...
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, okay, and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay?"
posted by Thorzdad at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Johnson/Weld aren't out. Weld just isn't doing anything to campaign for them anymore.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I was thinking of his "we need to talk about Hillary's Russia connections" thing.

Isn't that just the well-documented effects of Trump's Mirror in action, though?

"What? Hillary and Kaine say I have suspicious ties to Russia? Then I say she has pictures of Putin in her locker, and fills up her notebook writing"Mrs. Vladimir Putin" over and over again."
[puts down phone, resumes working on his Play-Doh model of all-dictator Mt. Rushmore]
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:05 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Johnson/Weld aren't out. Weld just isn't doing anything to campaign for them anymore.

Awesome. Minor bout of anxiety averted....
posted by Jalliah at 7:06 AM on October 5, 2016


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.

New York Magazine says no such thing. Nor does the Boston Globe article it's based on. He's still in the race, but his campaigning is moving in emphasis from "here's why you should vote for Johnson" to "here's why you should vote against Trump."
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:07 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I get the intent of why he would do it but right now but are we sure that in the states where it matters that enough Johnson voters would move to Clinton and not to Trump?

Clinton's lead widens in two-way polls, so it's likely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:08 AM on October 5, 2016


waitingtoderail: I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.

Probably the only thing I have in common with Trump is that we both won't be watching the VP debate tonight. — Jim Gaffigan (@JimGaffigan)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


There are clearly some people who say they're for Johnson in four-way polls and say they're for Clinton in two-way ones, but honestly, I think a lot of them are probably not going to vote at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I started watching the debate but I'll admit I had to tune out. Sadly, Kaine just isn't Clinton, and while he had some quality retorts, it just wasn't the same. Kaine got blustery for a bit which wasn't great. Pence accused Kaine of (gasp!) preparing and Kaine went on the defensive, but that called for an offensive move - do you want a VP (and President) that aren't gonna prepare for negotiations with Russia/China/Syria/Iraq? Pence brought up a fallen soldier and I was waiting for Kaine to bring up the Kahns. Pence also managed to rile up Kaine when he brought up the emails in a way Trump was unable to provoke Clinton during their debate. Kaine also didn't have a good retort for when Pence brought up the basket of deplorables, especially when Kaine brought up home-grown terrorism but didn't link that to the white supremacists in that basket. Still, I think some of that was planned as I doubt harping on Pence's record on gay rights is necessarily the most productive with undecideds and Republican-leaning folk who may well have voted for Bush II twice and care more about jobs.
posted by fragmede at 7:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


You: watching the debate

Me: currently in a building with literally every 5th grader in my school district taking their first music lesson on their brand new band and orchestra instruments. I am sitting between the violas and the flutes but sound is carrying from every direction.

I am not sure who is in a worse spot.

The debate viewer, because you can dream of a time when every kid around you is better to the point of not making you physically cringe at the sounds they make, probably to the point that you wouldn't mind hearing them. The debate viewer had to listen to and think about Pence talk about Trump, which will never get better until they both go away, which may not happen for a long time.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Given the little of Kaine that I'd seen prior, I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short. The ad the Clinton campaign just released is pretty brutal, and they have a trove of material to use for the rest of the campaign.
posted by strange chain at 7:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Late to this, but:

Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch

This isn't fair to Irulan. Irulan isn't a just-as-bad lapdog for Shaddam. IIRC, she takes her own steps, either independently or for the sisterhood, to figure out that her father was directly involved in the Harkonnen strike against the Atreides. And after Paul and Chani are gone, Irulan works hard and with apparently sincere love to act as a mother surrogate for Leto and Ghanima, not that they really need it, and defends them from Alia at some risk to herself. Ivanka is more Feyd; just as vicious as Harkonnen, maybe a bit cleverer, and being groomed to be a charismatic savior.

Shut-The-Fuck-Up-Donnie is, of course, Rabban.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:23 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


I like actual debates. The kind that I used to have when I was teaching English class. When kids argued two sides of an issue, and half way through, a couple of them would ask me urgently if they were allowed to change sides because they had been convinced of the opposing viewpoint. Yeah, I didn't watch the debates, because these things are basically dog-and-pony shows.
posted by Peach at 7:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Pence thanked the wrong university during the introduction.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Pence thanked the wrong university during the introduction.

He never said that.
posted by dersins at 7:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [108 favorites]


late to the party but can we talk for a minute about the bizarro world in which the republican VP nominee, several times, touted his union support? granted it was the border guards who, I suppose, along with cops, are the only people the party seems to think should have collective bargaining rights but even still - I would have loved to see Kaine go after him on how they are suddenly pro union when one comes out in favor of their side. doubly so if only the VP pick had been scott walker.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 7:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Tim Kaine Foreshadows 'Maniac' Attack On Donald Trump | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


So I've spent most of my working life working for older white dudes (who hasn't?) and I found myself looking at the faces of the two of them and deciding that, if your mom died, Kaine would be the boss who totally understood that you needed an extra day off for bereavement, and sent you flowers, while Pence would call you into his office and chew you out for crying at your desk.
posted by emjaybee at 7:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [83 favorites]


Given the little of Kaine that I'd seen prior, I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short. The ad the Clinton campaign just released is pretty brutal, and they have a trove of material to use for the rest of the campaign.

Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

PS, if anybody missed it last night, I still cannot get over this:

Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

I mean holy fuck. I haven't seen any headlines about that yet, but it's a more brutal slam than anything else Kaine said last night by far.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [105 favorites]


Yeah, and that Bible quote isn't going to be lost on my people, either.
posted by corb at 7:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [80 favorites]


Yeah, and that Bible quote isn't going to be lost on my people, either.

"The lesser of two evils is stay home?" A "protest vote with your feet" from evangelicals could swing this. That's a demographic the GOP has relied on for quite a while.

I am Mike Lieman, and I approve this message.
posted by mikelieman at 7:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

I am coming around to this position--Kaine sacrificed the debate to win the election. If that's the plan and it works, their campaign strategists are better than I am.

Clinton has been absolutely on fire with her videos this season. I don't know how widely they are viewed, but they are sharp.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


The quote I've been using with evangelicals tempted to vote Trump is the following, from CS Lewis -
"I feel a strong desire to tell you – and I expect you feel a strong desire to tell me – which of these two errors is the worse. That is the devil getting at us. He always sends errors into the world in pairs – pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one. But do not let us be fooled. We have to keep our eyes on the goal and go straight through between both errors. We have no other concern that that with either of them."
posted by corb at 7:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


So was it just me or did Pence mock Trump's Mexico wall idea?
posted by I-baLL at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016


I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short.

The 2012 debate with George 'macaca' Allen shows a very different approach. Admittedly, statewide elections are much lower-profile and the debates reflect that -- the one where Kelly Ayotte struggled with the "role model" question looked like it was being held in a spare conference room -- but it seems pretty clear that Kaine was working a strategy to set the table for the town hall debate. Lots of Clinton surrogates on the trail today (though Hillary herself doesn't have anything scheduled) so let's see if they adopt a consistent line that not even Pence will defend the crazy shit Trump says.
posted by holgate at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I struggled a bit to find the most recent campaign ad from last night (it's posted above, but things get lost in the shuffle here). If you're looking for it, the video is here.
posted by phunniemee at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

That was his job. Kaine wasn't there to make Kaine look good; he was there to make Trump look bad and stick as much as he could to Trump. He did his job well.

I'm not sure what job the Trump campaign tasked Pence with, but it sure looks like Pence decided that his job was to get Pence in the running for 2020.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [36 favorites]


I do wonder whether some of Kaine's aggression was actually about his own political brand - an attempt to derail this "America's affable Dad" persona before it gets too entrenched. We're all having fun with it but if he has ambitions beyond the next eight years he might not want to be saddled with it forever.
posted by yarrow at 7:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


vuron: In contrast Pence did absolutely nothing to expand the Trump base.

Sadly, that's not true. For at least one undecided, strongly Catholic young lady in Arizona, Pence went far to win her over despite recognizing that Trump is a terrible person with terrible views and actions (NPR roundtable from this morning, audio only for now, with a transcript to come later today). She's a young Latina, but for her and another Republican woman in Arizona, faith trumps all. (But for luckily for my sanity, the two men who are pro-Clinton said things that made me pump my fist: so many "Pro-Life" advocates stop caring about that life after it's born, and religion can be great but let's remember the First Amendment and the Separation of Church and State.)

As an atheist who wishes religious people all the best but feel very strongly that separation of Church and State is key, Tim Kaine's comments made me even more excited to vote for Clinton/Kaine:
I looked the voters of Virginia in the eye and said, look, this is my religion. I'm not going to change my religious practice to get one vote, but I know how to take an oath and uphold the law. And if you elect me, I will uphold the law.
...
That was a real struggle. But I think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don't feel that we could just substitute our own views for everybody else in society, regardless of their views.
Pulled from the Washington Post annotated VP debate transcript.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


I am Mike Lieman, and I approve this message.
posted by mikelieman at 9:39 AM on October 5 [+] [!]

Holy shit. I've been calling you "mik elie man" in my head all these years....
posted by Floydd at 8:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [38 favorites]


I thought it was Mikel Ieman. *shrug*
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]



Holy shit. I've been calling you "mik elie man" in my head all these years

Milky Man. Sorrynotsorry.
posted by zutalors! at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


I thought it was Mikelie Man.
posted by Pendragon at 8:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


He always sends errors into the world in pairs

Boy, you can really tell that C. S. Lewis never had to grapple with the mysteries of Donald Trump. If he had, this would read more like,
He always sends errors into the world in clumps of 150 to 200 -- pairs of opposites, and then the doubling down on, "sarcastic" negation of, flat denial of, theatrical overstatement of, permutational recombination of, and nonsensical fusions of those pairs, plus a lot of peripheral unrelated lies orbiting the central cluster like electrons surrounding a nucleus, some creepy incest-adjacent stuff that I don't even, whatever the fuck Rudy Guiliani is saying, and brand promotion . . . I've really kind of lost my train of thought here, but I think it had something to do with lying or maybe Jesus? Anyway, lots of errors. Gosh, I'm tired. Gonna go lie down now.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


YouTube version of the 'Indefensible' ad
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


I thought it was Mikelie Man.

The Michelin Man's Russian cousin?
posted by Talez at 8:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: Mike Lieman's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [fake]
posted by fragmede at 8:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]



YouTube version of the 'Indefensible' ad

Damn, son.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I've spent most of my working life working for older white dudes (who hasn't?)

*raises hand*

I've had two male bosses at contract jobs, totalling about six months. Other than that, every single one of my direct supervisors have been women. Granted, I do work in the non-profit world. I'm literally wearing a pink-collared shirt rn

Point being, my generation is a lot more used to directly experiencing female leadership than people over the age of 40 or so are. Turns out the world doesn't end.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


As the debate progressed I really did get the feeling that Kaine was sent there to reap what Trump had sown and come home with some great soundbites. And lo and behold, Clinton's ad team is on point.

Nobody watches the VP debate but election wonks, but those ads will make the rounds of the voting public. Well played, good sir.
posted by lydhre at 8:20 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hey, I just came here to post that 'Indefensible' ad.

Okay, then, Amanda Marcotte: "[Pence] is clearly a man who has spent his life mistaking people’s polite laughter for genuine merriment, and that inability to read other people comes across as, well, creepy."
posted by box at 8:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump: Mike Lieman's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [fake]

FULL DISCLOSURE: Eastern-European Jew. Pierogi and Brisket is the Food of My People.
posted by mikelieman at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


ACTUALLY, "New York Jew, from the Bronx, originally...", but if you want to get all "23 and Me", see above..
posted by mikelieman at 8:26 AM on October 5, 2016


Bialy's > Bagels
posted by mikelieman at 8:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


And from my interaction with the conservosphere this AM.

So on the Facebook I made a comment: It was like the Mike Pence of Earth-199999 was sent to the debate on Earth-616. He was probably confused by all the questions about Trump, like, "Why aren't we talking about Matthew Ellis?" (rimshot goes here)

Which was immediately followed by "Kaine reminded me of 'Teb' from Galaxy Quest..."

OK, yeah, Kaine does kind of look like Jed Rees. But seriously, that's your slam? There are about eight things you could legitimately criticize Kaine for. And seriously, if your schtick is to make the Clinton Campaign out to be sinister, you didn't go with The Recruiter from Deadpool but, instead picked a goofy and mostly likable character who no one is going to remember the name of from a 17 year old movie?

I'm not sure what is being said on high, but in the smartax, but I think it's safe to say that we're past peak Pepe the Frog.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bialy's > Bagels

flagged

I carried a bag of fresh bialys on an airplane once. I was not popular that day.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


FULL DISCLOSURE: Eastern-European Jew. Pierogi and Brisket is the Food of My People.

Mmm. That reminds me, there's leftover brisket in the fridge. Shana Tova, indeed!

BTW, interesting (to me anyway) how many people on Twitter responded to DTJ tweet about Rosh Hashanah with how unsafe they have been made to feel for the first time as a Jew in the U.S. (all links for Twitter).
posted by Sophie1 at 8:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just want to say that I am not comfortable with the hostility toward Russia that was expressed, and I don't like hearing it from any candidate. Confrontation and aggression is not strength and it makes me nervous because I don't think open conflict with Russia on any level is a good thing. If we want to move them in a positive direction, calling them out publicly isn't the way.

I have a bias, my family is still there. But still.
posted by prefpara at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Neither candidate said anything so monumentally stupid or offensive that it will get even a single news cycle of attention

"#ThatMexicanThing" has launched a nice flurry of tweets and memes, and has a chance of stirring Latinx voters who know they're overwhelmed in a red state.

Mostly, I agree with the analysis that Pence was trying to win the debate, and he did, and Kaine was trying to enhance his campaign - and he succeeded in that. They both reached their goals, which is why they were smiling and relaxed by the end of things.

I am looking forward to the Trumpslosion as he figures out that the only reason Pence did well was that he dodged every question remotely related to Trump's positions.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, the sudden uptick in Russian rhetoric is setting off warning bells. Mostly because I can't tell if Putin and his machine is actually provoking us more, or if American politicians are just noticing the Crimea and Syria, or what. But I haven't seen this much anti Russian talk since the Reagan years, it seems.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


As I was saying upthread...
@RealRealDonaldTrump
The constant interruptions last night by Tim Kaine should not have been allowed. Mike Pence won big!
Hahahahahaha
posted by instamatic at 8:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, the sudden uptick in Russian rhetoric is setting off warning bells. Mostly because I can't tell if Putin and his machine is actually provoking us more, or if American politicians are just noticing the Crimea and Syria, or what. But I haven't seen this much anti Russian talk since the Reagan years, it seems.

They are literally trying to hack this election.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [35 favorites]


BTW, interesting (to me anyway) how many people on Twitter responded to DTJ tweet about Rosh Hashanah with how unsafe they have been made to feel for the first time as a Jew in the U.S. (all links for Twitter).

It hasn't hit me yet. I'm not sure why, as my Twitter icon is all about Yiddish and has images both of me wearing tzitzits and me wearing tefillin, so I couldn't really be more Jewey online. (I suspect it's both because I mix that imagery with British imagery, which might confuse people, and, to a much greater extent, because I am a white dude, and white dudes aren't targeted as much.)

But, boy, do I see it. A lot of people who are publicly identified as Jews, either by themselves or by antisemities, and especially if they are openly feminist or in some other way political, are subject to just a torrent of vicious antisemitic abuse. And there has been a visible rise in Twitter users who identify as white nationalists and use coded words to express antisemitism -- "kayaks" is a popular replacement for an anti-Jewish epithet, and so you'll see people with Twitter handles that read "gas the kayaks" and that sort of thing.

And I believe them when they say they feel like Trump gave them permission. I know there is some argument about where the Trump Effect is real, whether there has been a marked rise in hateful behavior, post-Trump and inspired by him, but, you know, the haters all say there has been. They all credit him. They all take his and his son's posting of their memes, Trump's anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant comments, Trump's overt sexism, Trump's recent highlighting of a Jewish name in association with Clinton, etc. as acts of permission, acts that legitimize their worldview.

This is what it means when people say that a president's words matter. Because trickle down economics might not work, but trickle down hate does. At the top, you need only gesture at a troublesome priest, and those below you will volunteer to be the shock troops against him. And when you have someone saying Muslims must be kept out of the country, immigrants are rapists, etc. the shock troops will interpret it as a much larger mandate than a simple complaint about a priest. You just need to say Muslims should be identified somehow and a percent of the population will burn their mosques, and you need merely say a Jewish name and Jews on Twitter will receive photos of themselves in gas chambers.
posted by maxsparber at 8:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [89 favorites]


I grow increasingly convinced that HRC is staying out of the brightest parts of the spotlight at the moment, not just because when your opponent is busy destroying himself you stay out of his way, but more specifically because they (her campaign) are consciously baiting out what Trump threatened after the first debate: an attack on her that centers around Bill's infidelity.

It's literally the "oh please brer fox, don't bring up Monica Lewinsky" thing. Kaine and other surrogates have been tasked with doing whatever they reckon is most likely to piss Trump off; Trump's campaign (such as it is) has to be screaming at him to, whatever he does, DON'T BRING UP BILL'S CHEATING, which just makes it more likely as it imbues the idea with greater destructive force in Trump's mind (he can't think of a more powerful punch to land than sexual embarrassment and the taboo invests it with even greater power; to him, it's like people saying you never use nuclear weapons); and HRC is feigning, if not vulnerability, at least distraction. She's showing her back to bait the pounce.

If he brings it up on Sunday, she will annihilate him. There's no angle she's stronger on, no problem she's spend more time and energy being prepared to confront. And she's never been more popular and sympathetic than when she was dealing with Bill's fuck-around-ery. It's the worst possible move he could make, the most inexplicable tactic he could choose. Which means of course that he's definitely going to do it.
posted by penduluum at 8:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [47 favorites]


The Russia talk reminds me of something that tickled my brain last night:

Pence said that "the truth of the matter is, the weak and feckless foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has awakened an aggression in Russia that first appeared a few years ago with their move in Georgia, now their move into Crimea, now their move into the wider Middle East. (emphasis mine; source: WaPo transcript.)

Thing is, Russia invaded Georgia in August 2008. I... feel like there was a different person in the Oval Office then. Can't think of their name though
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [52 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.
posted by corb at 8:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


VP hopeful Weld is more interested in attacking Trump

The Libertarian vice presidential candidate, William F. Weld, said Tuesday that he plans to focus exclusively on blasting Donald Trump over the next five weeks, a strategic pivot aimed at denying Trump the White House and giving himself a key role in helping to rebuild the GOP.

Weld’s comments in a Globe interview mark a major shift in his mission since he pledged at the Libertarian convention in May that he would remain a Libertarian for life and would do all he could to help elect his running mate, Gary Johnson, the former Republican governor of New Mexico.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?
posted by one_bean at 8:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

"I took a sacred vow to G-d, 'For better or worse', and when it was at it's worst, I KEPT MY VOW SACRED VOW'. You certainly can't say the same, Donnie...
posted by mikelieman at 8:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not if she's smart. The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape. She wants to keep with the Khans and Machados - people only a monster could hate.
posted by corb at 8:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Front page headline of The Guardian: Pence defends running mate against Kaine's attacks in debate
In the article: "On almost every occasion, Pence offered little by way of defense."

>_>
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kevin Drum makes a good point regarding last night's low ratings:
This suggests that the post-debate spin is going to be more important than usual since so few people actually saw the debate. I suspect that's good for Team Clinton, since Tim Kaine's performance is likely to look better over time. It may not have won people over during the debate itself, but Kaine badgered Pence pretty effectively and did a good job of exposing Pence's unwillingness to defend Donald Trump. In the end, the fact that Pence was so determined to throw Trump under the bus is likely to be the debate's biggest takeaway.
posted by Gelatin at 8:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


I carried a bag of fresh bialys on an airplane once. I was not popular that day.

posted by uncleozzy at 8:30 AM on October 5 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

False, because bialys are only fresh for the 20 minutes or so after they come out of the oven and absolutely must be toasted if eaten after cooling.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

Yes, this... I want her to be able to say, I took those vows for life, for better or worse, no matter what happened; I'm not bailing out on this because it gets rough or because of mistakes, no matter how bad those are. I wasn't facing abuse; I was facing a spouse who (sorry honey) hadn't lived up to his end of the bargain - and I wasn't cutting him loose for that; I said, you're going to follow through with what you promised.

And I will do that for America - I'm not going to quit when something's hard to cope with, or when it hurts me personally; I will support our allies because we have made promises to them; I will work hard to make America the strong community it needs to be, drawing on the good parts of our history and working to overcome our problems.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [61 favorites]


I want to watch Paul Dano play Eric Trump in a movie where he is once again beaten to death by Daniel Day-Lewis
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


maxsparber: "Because trickle down economics might not work, but trickle down hate does."

THIS. Needs to be in Clinton's stump speech.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [57 favorites]


absolutely must be toasted if eaten after cooling.

We brought them to relatives in LA. Jewish relatives. They were toasted. As good as fresh? No. But evidently you can't get bialys in the Valley for some reason.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, and for people who want to know how the post factual world is taking things, apparently there is a very well photoshopped fake tweet being passed around, "from Kaine", talking about his wife asking him for an open marriage. I'm pretty sure this is originated in the "alt right" because of the cuck connection, but they passed it to the religious circles. That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.
posted by corb at 9:01 AM on October 5, 2016 [49 favorites]


I wish I had some bialys. In fact, if I had a lot of bialys every day between now and the election that might help me get through the whole thing.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


"Tim Kaine's performance is likely to look better over time."

Whoever is working on Clinton's campaign strategy is a mastermind and all I can say is I'm glad they are using their powers for good. They got a solid 30 minutes' video of Pence shaking his head and saying that's not true! while in the background Kaine narrates the litany of hate Trump has vomited during his campaign.

I think their strategist might be Dumbledore.
posted by Tarumba at 9:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [38 favorites]


How well Photoshopped does a fake tweet really have to be to look real? I mean, select area, delete, fill white, Helvetica text, fin.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


How well Photoshopped does a fake tweet really have to be to look real? I mean, select area, delete, fill white, Helevetica text, fin.

You don't need Photoshop. There are websites that will re-create Twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


If anyone needs a new phone background, here you go.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


I KEPT MY VOW SACRED VOW Covenant.

The Protestant usage is 'holy covenant of marriage', as contrasted with the deprecated godless 'contract' marriage (and the Catholic 'sacrament of marriage').

Trump sees all of life as 'deals' and 'guidelines' to be shaped, formed and broken as he sees fit, and this philosophy extends not only to his business dealings but to his familial relationships.

Traditional Christian theology, on the other hand, sees marriage as a symbol of God's unconditional and everlasting love for humanity which is either unbreakable or breakable only under extreme conditions.*

*From a feminist and queer perspective, traditional marriage theology is problematic in several ways. But we're after different fish here.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hello, let's keep the shaming on cheating on and abusing one's spouse and be careful about shaming people for being divorced, please.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [35 favorites]


Yes, this... I want her to be able to say, I took those vows for life, for better or worse, no matter what happened; I'm not bailing out on this because it gets rough or because of mistakes, no matter how bad those are. I wasn't facing abuse; I was facing a spouse who (sorry honey) hadn't lived up to his end of the bargain - and I wasn't cutting him loose for that; I said, you're going to follow through with what you promised.

And I will do that for America - I'm not going to quit when something's hard to cope with, or when it hurts me personally; I will support our allies because we have made promises to them; I will work hard to make America the strong community it needs to be, drawing on the good parts of our history and working to overcome our problems.

I realize this would be a political statement in the service of (important) political goals and not a moral one, but I'm actually super uncomfortable with the idea that the presidential candidate I support should tell everyone that divorce is only OK in the event of abuse. Hillary Clinton is not a better or worse person because she is still married to Bill through his infidelity. Donald Trump is not a better or worse person by mere fact of having gone through multiple divorces (his conduct in and following those marriages is, of course, reprehensible) and I would love it if we could avoid stigmatizing people (and those close to them) who have divorced. They are not weaker, or worse, or less committed to the political future of the US.

Sorry again, I think I understand what the intention is here, it just struck me in a very personal place and I wanted to push back against this idea.
posted by Copronymus at 9:13 AM on October 5, 2016 [55 favorites]


Oh, and for people who want to know how the post factual world is taking things, apparently there is a very well photoshopped fake tweet being passed around, "from Kaine", talking about his wife asking him for an open marriage. I'm pretty sure this is originated in the "alt right" because of the cuck connection, but they passed it to the religious circles. That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.

I suppose anyone who claims to be 'religious' yet would willingly accept this type of debasement-fetish horseshit from the rebrand Klan is not likely to vote Clinton/Kaine anyway, so it's probably not worth the effort of fighting. Far be it from me to kink-shame, but this alt-right obsession with cuckoldry and humiliation porn reeks of self-hatred as well as racial hatred, and I wish they would just keep it to themselves.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


corb: That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.

I am out of Favorites again/still, so please allow me to stand and applaud sincerely for this figure of speech -- and for your real-life act of quashing disinformation. You're fighting a good fight there, ma'am.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Given that Trump raped his first wife and was extremely controlling and emotionally abusive to his second, I wouldn't focus on the "my marriage stuck" thing. Obviously, Trump is the one who caused those marriages to end, but it also implies that the women he was abusing shouldn't have left him. I KNOW that's not what Clinton's actual intention would ever be, but the whole sentiment of the idea rubs me the wrong way.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Frowner: In fact, if I had a lot of bialys every day between now and the election that might help me get through the whole thing.

Sorry, Frowner, but coffee is for closers bialys are for Mods.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:17 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is projecting so hard that if he does go after infidelity, he's going to lapse and say something like "Crooked Hillary cheated on Ivana in the 80s when she was also doing a ton of cocaine"
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


The Concourse: Many People Are Saying That Donald Trump Is Mad About Mike Pence’s Good Reviews

(mostly linking for the story therein about Trump's resentment over Ivana outshining him as a casino manager, but I also enjoyed the title)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"?

The porn of it is already in production. Big twist at the end!
posted by msalt at 9:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sorry again, I think I understand what the intention is here, it just struck me in a very personal place and I wanted to push back against this idea.

Thank you, and yes... I can't figure out how Hillary can simultaneously talk about her marriage as an example of commitment to see problems through, without shaming those who got divorces. I expect that her campaign has considered that from multiple angles and probably has something much shorter and less detailed for exactly that reason.

I'm sorry for hitting people's buttons on this one; it's a touchy subject and many of us have trigger points in sensitive spots. Which, of course, is why Donald is trying to use it - he knows it's got a strong impact, even if he doesn't have the empathy to figure out why.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll
Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 24 points among likely Hispanic voters in Florida, according to a new poll that shows a significant number of Republican Latinos are unsure of their nominee for the White House.
...
Another plus for Clinton: the number of registered Hispanics grew from 13.9 percent of the total electorate in 2012 to 15.4 percent of the 12.4 million registered Florida voters as of the Aug 30 primaries. Since then, a coalition of liberal and pro-immigration groups say they’ve registered thousands more Latinos.
Nice job on hitching your wagon to the angry white person vote GOP.
posted by strange chain at 9:23 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"?

The porn of it is already in production. Big twist at the end!

The Devil has a duck penis?
posted by Etrigan at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


So we were talking about the VP debates and

50-year-old supervisor: "Hey, Liz? So what's up with this... this cartoon frog thing?"
Me: "...oh god."

And that's how I spent 10 minutes explaining meme culture, Pepe the frog, and the alt-right internet to my boss. I have reached Peak Millennial. Feels bad, man.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [121 favorites]


showbiz_liz: 50-year-old supervisor: "Hey, Liz? So what's up with this... this cartoon frog thing?" Me: "...oh god."

M. Night Shymalan twist: he was actually asking about Dat Boi.
posted by mhum at 9:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [71 favorites]


strange chain: Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll

There they go, whipping out that Mexican thing again.

HillaryClintonWiggleDance.gif
posted by filthy light thief at 9:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think their strategist might be Dumbledore.

Really? Someone who thinks that having a child abused for the first 11 years of his life - and then after it's abundently obvious he's being abused sending him back 'home' for more abuse? I really, really doubt that.

Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?

Very little. She's smarter than that. Khan is a gold star parent and an attack on him was an attack on the military. Alicia Machado is a Spanish-speaking latina telenovella star and an attack on her is an attack on the hispanic community.

Every one of these little surprises is going to be not just Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull. It's going to be Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull while standing in front of a support pillar or something that's very expensive if Donald Trump breaks it.

The Central Park Five? If Donald Trump charges hard at that what votes does he lose? Who is likely to be that much more motivated to vote against him?
posted by Francis at 9:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


bialys: This is like biscuits a few threads ago (except I've had plenty of those). Do people prefer them with onions or garlic?
posted by kingless at 9:29 AM on October 5, 2016


Do people prefer them with onions or garlic?

Yes!
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I can't imagine a bialy without onion -- I've never seen one without onion in the little depression. Garlic is great, as is poppy seeds.
posted by maxsparber at 9:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]



Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"

What the actual fuck.

Arouse (verb)
1. evoke or awaken (a feeling, emotion, or response). Synonyms: induce, prompt, trigger, stir up, bring out, kindle, fire, spark off, provoke, engender, cause, foster; e.g. "to arouse suspicion"
2. awaken (someone) from sleep.

It's just a word, and a quite useful one in the non-Beavis & Butthead world.

"Whipped out that Mexican thing . . . "

OK, even I have to admit that this one is somewhat diverting.
posted by Herodios at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?
posted by one_bean at 8:50 AM on October 5

Not if she's smart. The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape. She wants to keep with the Khans and Machados - people only a monster could hate.
posted by corb at 8:54 AM on October 5

Very little. She's smarter than that. Khan is a gold star parent and an attack on him was an attack on the military. Alicia Machado is a Spanish-speaking latina telenovella star and an attack on her is an attack on the hispanic community.

Every one of these little surprises is going to be not just Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull. It's going to be Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull while standing in front of a support pillar or something that's very expensive if Donald Trump breaks it.

The Central Park Five? If Donald Trump charges hard at that what votes does he lose? Who is likely to be that much more motivated to vote against him?
posted by Francis at 9:28 AM on October 5

I understand the politics might be shaky. But that episode is Trump's entire shitty campaign in a nutshell. And the fact that it might not be smart politics - because people might still think that they were guilty even though they're, you know, actually innocent - is also Trump's entire shitty campaign in a nutshell. I agree it might not improve her odds of winning the election. But calling it out, highlighting exactly what is wrong with Trump's fucking awful world view, is sort of what we need to be moving towards. Maybe if she has any cash left over she can run some ads the day after the election.

Here's Trump in the ad he took out in all four major newspapers: "I want to hate these murderers and I always will. ... How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their CIVIL LIBERTIES END WHEN AN ATTACK ON OUR SAFETY BEGINS!" And when the city settled with them for $40 million, Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order." The fact that it would be bad politics to point this out is disgraceful.
posted by one_bean at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll

There they go, whipping out that Mexican thing again.

Er, um, uh, not exactly, no.
posted by psoas at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape

They were innocent.
posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [37 favorites]


Bialys, my heritage is middle eastern and polish (and Dutch and English, like most Americans, I'm a mutt), but my mom would make spinach feta bialy, and lamb pinenut bialys. So good. Now I want them.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Weird food fixation in describing the VP debate: Two Jars of Mayo Politely Discuss Politics: Liveblogging an Evening at the Vice-Presidential Debate (Jezebel's political coverage from The Slot, before the debate)

- Except Pence is the old mayo you found in your fridge that looks OK but is really rancid and unsafe for consumption, while Kaine is spicy home-made mayo that doesn't look all that impressive but is really, really tasty. (I do not want to eat either candidate, for the record.)

Colbert: "like watching a loaf of white bread get pistol-whipped by a jar of mayonnaise. Not a lot of flavor, but there was a clear winner" (The Daily Beast said that was Pence, because ...? It seemed like Colbert mocked Pence and Trump a lot more, perhaps exclusively, so I'm not seeing how Pence won there.)

And Mayonnaise Sandwich: Your Vice Presidential Debate Livemockery from "Crasstalk" (you don't need to read the page, bad comments and all that ...)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


If one of you is not planning on opening up a little deli or something in the near St. Louis suburbs, preferably between I-64 and I-44, maybe on a nice little street with an eclectic batch of restaurants and shops, like maybe between the Vom Foss and the Penzeys spices, could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

I'm not Jewish, but I am hungry, and you guys are killing me here.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


until after lunch?

Zorak: We exist in a boundless time continuum. There is no weekend! lunch time!
posted by Existential Dread at 9:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order." The fact that it would be bad politics to point this out is disgraceful.

It's not bad politics to point it out and indeed I hope she brings it up at one of the debates. It just isn't something that will resonate at the level of Alicia Machado and hurt him badly among a voting block he doesn't want to lose so it won't be the highlight of Clinton's night and the rest of Trump's week.
posted by Francis at 9:52 AM on October 5, 2016


I know nobody is going to read this down here, but I watched the debate last night because my nine-year-old wanted to. About 15 minutes in, my 12-year-old figured out what we were doing an joined us. We had bingo cards, which kept it fun, but my 12-year-old is probably the most knowledgeable person in the house on the topic of this election. He was refuting Pence like a pro: "Trump didn't say that? There's video of him from a rally in Dubuque in March 2, 2015, at which he said..."
posted by not that girl at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [91 favorites]


They were innocent.

Yes, but not everyone believes that, because racism. And especially given the recent focus on police brutality and systemic racism, anyone inclined to believe that a black person charged with a crime might in fact be innocent is probably voting against Trump already.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


From way upthread, to ricochet biscuit:

Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen; and clearly the very buff Paul Ryan needs to step into Sting's aluminum jockstrap.

You have just ruined a fantasy of mine from when I was thirteen. Thanks a lot...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


I suppose anyone who claims to be 'religious' yet would willingly accept this type of debasement-fetish horseshit from the rebrand Klan is not likely to vote Clinton/Kaine anyway, so

Two things on this, that I think are equally important:

First, hard as it seems to believe, we are the only people who have this much information about what's going on in all corners, because we consolidate and have multiple views of the elephant, as it were. I only recognized this as bullshit alt-right stuff because I already knew about the weird "cuck" thing, and even then, it took me a half hour to realize. I knew it was wrong, because I believe in Kaine's sincere Catholic faith. But for someone who hasn't heard about it, and doesn't believe Kaine's faith is sincere, it's really plausible. By the time it's travelled a few telephone connections, the stamp of fake-Klan has been erased.

Second, people leaning Trump don't need to vote Clinton. They need to not vote Trump. If they vote for Evan McMullin or Darrell Castle, that's fine - it's not a vote for Trump and they aren't going to win anyway. It's one less brick in a previously monolithic wall that you really don't want people to start mortaring.
posted by corb at 9:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


Weird food fixation in describing the VP debate: Two Jars of Mayo Politely Discuss Politics: Liveblogging an Evening at the Vice-Presidential Debate (Jezebel's political coverage from The Slot, before the debate)

So I'm reading and scrolling while eating my goto lunch these days, a turkey, cheese and MAYO sandwhich and now..erg. I lurv mayonaise....

Why pundits why?
posted by Jalliah at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Er, um, uh, not exactly, no."

I know, I have very confused feelings about people using Mexican as shorthand for Latino because on the one hand it's usually the bad kind of attention so i can mentally try to disengage but on the other hand I know they mean Latino and it hurts that they just assume we're all Mexicans or maybe Puerto Ricans.

Like sometimes people ask me about taco recipes, meanwhile the first time I ever had a taco was after I moved to the US

Once a liberal acquaintance got kind of mad at me when I said I don't really know about tortillas and dips because they thought I was fucking with them. To me tortillas are omelets, not corn chips. I mean now I know but I didn't until I moved here.
posted by Tarumba at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]



They were innocent.

Yes, but not everyone believes that, because racism

I'm not saying that Clinton should use the Central Park Five, but saying 'They're not understood to be innocent, and people agree with Trump' is just some feelings over facts bullshit that we keep having to contend with in this campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 10:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Amen, corb! Further to that, I sincerely believe that our society is a network and it dis-serves us to cut off pieces entirely, allowing the label of "Other" to strengthen. I completely sympathize with those who find that the threats and labels against them prevent their engagement and respect. But that just reinforces the importance of the rest of us keeping those threads strong enough to hopefully continue to (paraphrasing) continue to pull the moral arc of the universe.
posted by meinvt at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


ChurchHatesTucker: YouTube version of the 'Indefensible' ad
At the VP debate, Mike Pence seemed to discover he was Donald Trump's running mate. He had a hard time with the news.
[Pence at the VP debate vs Trump and Pence video from prior events]
It's okay, Mike. We'd have a hard time defending him, too.
SO GOOD. SO, SO GOOD.

Compare and contrast: post-debate video from GOP - Tim Kaine Interrupts - it's over 4 minutes of Kaine talking over Pence, with a counter of the 72 interruptions, ending with the text "72 interruptions." [DO NOT READ THE YT COMMENTS]

That's it. No good zinger to open and/or close, no call to donate by texting a simple number, no message. In comparison, Donald interrupted Hillary 51 times vs Clinton interrupting him 17 times (article, not another dumb video).

So is the message that Kaine is a bully who says nasty things (in which he's just repeating Donald)? Because I'm really unclear on the message. Maybe they intended to imply as one YT comment says "If the American people are about to hear some Truth, interupt and stop them from hearing it." ... except it's not the truth, so there's that.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order."

It's also stunningly hypocritical of him. (Shocking, I know!) I clearly remember Clinton bringing up a case he was involved in during the first presidential debate, and Trump defending himself by repeatedly insisting that he "settled without any admission of guilt." It's really just amazing what a hypocrite the man is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


OMG Kaine is annoying to look at on TV. That constant superior smirk is infuriating. I'm going to have to avoid watching him, given that I have to vote for the irritating git whatever he does.
posted by w0mbat at 10:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


This Twitter headline from my local Maine NBC affiliate is amazing:

@WCSH6: "We should let women make their own decisions," U.S. Senator Tim Kaine said- Here's why Gov. Mike Pence disagrees

(link to actual WCSH news clip with less interesting headline)

Of course, they're firmly based down here in the blue part of the state, and a different NBC affiliate serves District II (ie: the red/rural/harder to reach part). Still, I'm shocked to see the normally said channel 6 be so clear.
posted by anastasiav at 10:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


It got really hard for me when Kaine went "this is important, Elaine! "

It was super condescending IMO
posted by Tarumba at 10:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I still like him, though!
posted by Tarumba at 10:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order."

The mention of "angels" reminds me of his saying on Twitter that Hillary Clinton had held up Alicia Machado as an angel. Says a lot about who Trump thinks does and doesn't deserve to be treated as human.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Personally I didn't find the VPs treatment of the moderator to be misogynistic. Clearly like every other person did though so I could be wrong. It just seemed like regular moderator/moderatee behavior.

I wasn't really thrilled with the job she did overall. She was fine.
posted by zutalors! at 10:17 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


When 2016 is over, the GOP will pretend Donald Trump never existed
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


I thought Quijano did a terrible job and chose terrible questions. The format was bad, so I don't fault her for that, but the questions were weak sauce IMO. Seriously not one question about Pence's LGBT record in IN?
posted by melissasaurus at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


> Personally I didn't find the VPs treatment of the moderator to be misogynistic

Yeah, me neither. I think they would've talked over Lester Holt (or anyone else who didn't have an airhorn) just as much.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah Tarumba, I too was somewhat put off by the way both candidates kept steamrolling the moderator. I mean, I know that part of the game is to try to control the mic as much as possible, but it still came of as two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings. I was hoping that she'd snap and tell them both to cut it the fuck out, but it never happened. They both came off as pretty disrespectful, in that sense.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings.

I mean, she should have taken charge of it then. Both moderators so far have been weak sauce IMO - I don't think anything better will happen with Cooper and Wallace honestly.
posted by zutalors! at 10:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also, at what point can we all finally agree that you don't have to be a fucking angel to be worthy of respect, both from your fellow citizens and from the law? Saying that someone is "no angel" is holding them to the standard of a literal mythical creature said to be the divine embodiment of goodness and innocence. I mean, what the actual fuck? None of us here on Planet Earth are angels. We are humans.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [57 favorites]


1,387 comments in less than 24 hours.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]



Yeah, nobody ever did that to Jim Lehrer.

Oh, wait, that's what we were all complaining about in 2012. Only that time the problem was that the moderator was an old white guy who should get off the stage.


"The question was about North Korea, gentlemen."
 
posted by Herodios at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey, I can wish that the moderator would show a little spine while also thinking that it's pretty fucking disrespectful and pretty fucking sad and pretty fucking predictable to see two white, male vice presidential candidates just talk over Elaine Quijano as if she wasn't even in the room. It's not just on the moderator to grab the candidates by their collars and give them a good shake, the candidates themselves are also supposed to be showing us what kind of people they are, and part of what I wanted to see was that they were capable of treating a woman of color with decency and respect. I didn't see that, and while it's not going to change my vote I do care about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


> 1,387 comments in less than 24 hours.

That's what happens when Weakness Arouses Evil.
Tag line: "You've whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I like Tim Kaine a lot, yesterday's debate seemed uncharacteristic of him, and I think that's largely because he was less making the case for himself and more about forcing Pence to try and defend Trump's own words. When Kaine had a moment to talk about himself, such as when he talked about his faith and balancing his views of the death penalty with the oath of office, he came across as much better. But that doesn't really matter, no one is going to talk about that moment, but will instead talk about Kaine's interruptions and Pence's lies about Trump's campaign.

When 2016 is over, the GOP will pretend Donald Trump never existed
I fully expect the leaders of the GOP to say 'Of course Trump lost, he wasn't a real conservative', and for the devout Trump supporters in their base to say 'Of course Trump lost, Crooked Hillary rigged the system', and we'll continue to see the delegitimization of Democratic presidents, and American democracy in general.
posted by airish at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


"... it still came of as two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings"

Exactly, somehow Hillary managed to ace a debate without being a douche. We have different standards of social intelligence for men and women.

I do think Kaine became a lot more respectful after that, several times he restrained himself and did not respond and he was overall more responsive to Elaine's directions after he calmed down.
posted by Tarumba at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


candidates themselves are also supposed to be showing us what kind of people they are

I agree with you and think they could/should have been more respectful to the process, but I think saying they were indecent toward her is a little strong.
posted by zutalors! at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2016


Charles Pierce: We Caught a Glimpse of the Republican Party's Future Last Night. And it looks, unfortunately, like Mike Pence.
posted by homunculus at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


...could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

So it's a little later...how about now? Is there real bialy in Raleigh? Durham has a French bakery called Loaf that's supposed to have it.
posted by kingless at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


A highschool debater would've had a card in their briefcase about Purvi Patel getting 20 years for self-induced abortion in Indiana but Tim Kaine didn't.
posted by larrybob at 10:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I feel like the Purvi Patel thing, given that most people don't know about it, would take way too long for set up to be effective, although I agree that it's a monstrous verdict.
posted by zutalors! at 10:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


If Trump was a little more self aware he would've tweeted something along the line of "Et tu Pence" last night instead of trying to congratulate Pence.

I still don't think Pence is going to be able to get the Trump stink off of himself but it was pretty funny watching Pence trying to disavow everything Trump has said.

Granted a lot of the electorate is perfectly fine with being lied to on a daily basis but I can't imagine that people on the lunatic fringe are going to like Pence throwing Trump under the bus and what percentage of Democrats are going to go "ohh that Pence is quite a gentleman!"
posted by vuron at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016


Outside of the debate, last week College Republicans at the University of Minnesota sparked protests when they took part in a campus-wide student group painting activity.

Context: Every year, student groups are invited to paint panels promoting themselves on a covered high traffic walkway connecting the U of Mn campuses on either side of the Mississsippi river.

This year, the College Republicans chose to promote Trump's candidacy, including the phrase "Build The Wall". The mural was vandalized later (graffiti), and sparked discussion and protest. University President Eric Kaler addressed the issue in a campus wide email:

'[University President Eric Kaler] acknowledged in the email that students have found the phrase offensive, but he condemned the vandalization of the painting and said the campus supports all types of free speech.

“The University of Minnesota supports a campus climate that welcomes all members of our community and our values of equity and diversity, but that also ensures the free flow of ideas, even those that are offensive to some,” Kaler said. “We encourage all who find some protected speech distasteful or offensive to engage in more protected speech.”'

On the other had, there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, I agree that it would have been better if the moderator had used a firmer hand with the candidates, and I didn't care for some of her questions either, but I wasn't watching the debates to pass judgement on Quijano, I was watching it to judge Kaine and Pence. The candidates were the ones who were supposed to be proving themselves to the American public, not the moderator.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


A highschool debater would've had a card in their briefcase about Purvi Patel getting 20 years for self-induced abortion in Indiana but Tim Kaine didn't.

They might not have wanted to subject Patel to that level of "fame". Sure, her case is in the news, but a nationally televised debate -- not to mention subjecting her to the Trump Brigade -- is another step up the Shit Staircase.
posted by Etrigan at 10:34 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


"could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

-- I'm not Jewish, but I am hungry, and you guys are killing me here.

Seconding. FYI, today is also Tzom Gedalia.
posted by Mchelly at 10:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


not that girl: I know nobody is going to read this down here

What am I... chopped tofu?
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the other had, there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.

I thought Kaler's response was terrible. He's not been a bad university president as university presidents go - especially considering we're not that long recovered from years of Mark Yudof - but "oh, we need to protect political speech" is incredibly hypocritical.

1. The university has been cracking down on political speech for years - when I took some classes here in the late 90s it was a very different place in terms of student engagement and visible student activity.

2. The bridge is maintained by the university - it's not a natural resource. The university wouldn't protect my political speech if my group got a board that said "fuck the UMN and all it stands for, especially [important donors A, B and C]".

3. What's next? It's okay to paint bible verses about how homosexuals are going to hell? Or start a group advocating for getting rid of women students because women belong in the home? This isn't some windswept corner where anything goes, and letting anti-LatinX racism fly is just saying that of all groups, they matter least.

4. I bet it's Kaler trying to triangulate with Republican political figures, alums and donors, and honestly, fuck that. Student wellbeing first.
posted by Frowner at 10:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


That Charles Pierce piece explains the "I'm in Nevada" tweet: Context for this: @MegynKelly quipped that Trump is "surrounded by his team," controlling his tweets, "like, Kellyanne's got the thumbs..."
posted by Lexica at 10:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Speaking of Pence and horrible criminal justice stories, Mike Pence Tells Wrongfully Convicted Man He Won’t Act On Pardon Request:
After serving 10 years of a 40 year prison sentence for an Indiana armed robbery and attempted murder, Keith Cooper was freed when eyewitnesses recanted their testimony against him, new DNA evidence showed he wasn’t at the scene of the crime, and a jailhouse informant admitted that he lied to investigators.

Five years later, Cooper filed a pardon petition that, if it were granted, would make him the first person in the state’s history granted clemency based on a finding of innocence. When his request was presented to the parole board, they found unanimously that he should be pardoned and have the two serious felony charges wiped from his record.

Now, after waiting for more than two years for Governor Mike Pence to act on the board’s decision, Cooper has learned that the GOP vice presidential candidate won’t — unless Cooper can prove to the governor’s administration that all other judicial remedies have been exhausted
Apparently Cooper has effectively exhausted his judicial remedies already (he took a deal where the court resentenced him to time served in exchange for withdrawing his petition to vacate the conviction, but wants the conviction wiped out to clear his name and ensure he isn't labeled as a felon for life). Pence's office refused to believe a letter from the public defender stating that he had no further options with the courts.
posted by zachlipton at 10:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [63 favorites]


FYI, today is also Tzom Gedalia.

Oh great. Another fast day. I'll just pretend I was too sick not to eat. Like the rabbi.

You know the rabbi. A man is sick and goes to the rabbi, he says, I'm too sick to fast. The rabbi says you must, it is commanded.

That day, while starving, the man sees the rabbi walking down the street. He's eating. He has a whole bag full of, oh, let's say bialys. Just chomping on them. Crumbs everywhere.

What gives, the man says. It's a fast day!

Too sick, the rabbi says.

But you said I had to! The man says.

I was smart, the rabbi says. I didn't go to a rabbi.
posted by maxsparber at 10:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


The first amendment doesn't protect you from people grafitti-ing over your free speech because they didn't like what you said.
posted by Sara C. at 10:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Frowner, I wonder if the issue is just that if he wanted to have it taken down, the most obvious way to go would be to argue that the slogan as hate speech (which I personally think it is, for the record) and have it removed on those grounds. Since the slogan also happens to be the signature plank in the republican presidential candidate's platform this year, that might court more controversy than he has the spine to face.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cooper filed a pardon petition that, if it were granted, would make him the first person in the state’s history granted clemency based on a finding of innocence.

Wait just a second there. Are you telling me that Indiana has never let someone out of prison after it's been shown that they were innocent of the crime for which they were imprisoned? That up to now, they've always just kept people locked up even after it was well established that they hadn't done the crime? What the fuck, Indiana?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not That Girl, my 13 year old is likewise better informed about the election than most adults. His friends too. They make trump jokes. I only hope they stay this engaged.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I misread. He was freed, but he wants the conviction overturned. That's not quite as fucked up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.
posted by cmfletcher at 10:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


As I understand it, there's a difference between requesting clemency on the basis of innocence (the governor grants you a pardon or clemency) and the courts doing so (a judge vacates the conviction). Presumably Indiana has had some of the latter, but never the former. Which is stupid, because the entire point of having pardons, at least outside of graft and corruption, is to have an extra-judicial relief valve to quickly and boldly redress manifest cases of injustice, but that would require governors to stick their neck out slightly, so it rarely happens.
posted by zachlipton at 10:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Still fucked up though? I would think that if there's a finding that someone should be let out of jail because they're innocent, that this would be an automatic overturning of the conviction?
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.

I also don't see how having a felony conviction can possibly make it okay to take away your constitutional right to vote though so, uh, I guess I'll never be smart enough to run for Governor of Indiana.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


Yeah, the university thing is kind of indicative of the larger problem, right? As a society, we have agreed that it's not okay to criminalize, or even censor, normal political speech. The idea of censoring a platform statement of a major party presidential candidate is insane, especially when the statement, itself, isn't racist. Building a border wall is stupid, but not itself morally wrong. Same with people shouting "Trump". But the problem is that Trump has started to stand for this kind of virulent racism. What do you do when the normalized political discourse is poisoned?
posted by corb at 10:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


ZeusHumms: there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


At University I did quite a bit of moderating and got a bit of a rep of being able to handle really contentious issues.
I have a lot of empathy fir the moderators. It's hard.

What tactics they can use is entirely dependent on just how far they are allowed to go. If it's clear from the beginning that the moderator has final authority to call a time out or 'just shut 'er all down' it makes a big difference it getting participants to reign themselves in.

After a few times the only way I would agree to moderate anything the least bit controversial or adversarial was if I had that power and had the full support of the organizers to use it.

It's one of those things that you do whatever you can to not threaten to use it but as far as I'm concerned it needs to be there so participant no there is a hard limit to what they can pull. I had to use it during a debate in the run up to the Iraq War. Did a thirty second time out, plus a calm restatement on expectations. It only took one time and a 'Gentleman do we need to take a 30 second break again?" for it to get better but after a few more times of that I would have shut it down.

I dunno what the expectations and the limits are for these debates, both official and unofficial. If the mods don't have the option or feel like they will have support for being more strident then it leaves them way more dependent on the participants monitoring themselves.

It's tough.
posted by Jalliah at 11:01 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Exactly, somehow Hillary managed to ace a debate without being a douche. We have different standards of social intelligence for men and women.

I seem to recall the general consensus being "OMG Tim! Stop being a douche!"
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:03 AM on October 5, 2016


I can't figure out how Hillary can simultaneously talk about her marriage as an example of commitment to see problems through, without shaming those who got divorces. I expect that her campaign has considered that from multiple angles and probably has something much shorter and less detailed for exactly that reason.

Politics are hard, and that's one reason why Trump is flailing. That careful poltiican thing everybody hates is an important part of the job. I think Hillary can thread this needle and make a point about subtle pro-choice at the same time:
"Marriage can be incredibly difficult, and I would never tell a woman to stay in a marriage she felt she needed to leave. Sometimes it's literally a matter of life and death.

I won't even judge Donald for leaving his first two wives, that was his choice to make. But families are important too, especially when children are involved. I don't understand why he feels he has the right to judge me for making the painful choice to keep my family together.

I do know this. I respected my marriage covenant and my vows. Donald committed adultery brazenly, and bragged about in in the media. He even brought his mistress to a party his wife was at, which was reported in all the newspapers. I'd like to hear how Donald justifies his behavior, and why he thought it was OK to humiliate his wife and children this way."
posted by msalt at 11:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [54 favorites]


I'm right there with you tivalasvegas. It's just another way to maintain a permanent underclass.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I also don't see how having a felony conviction can possibly make it okay to take away your constitutional right to vote though so, uh, I guess I'll never be smart enough to run for Governor of Indiana.
In my fantasy universe where I'm not too disabled to leave my house on most days, I would spend every last second of my spare time trying to fix felon disenfranchisement. I wouldn't go all New Hampshire on the issue, but voting rights should absolutely be returned after all sentencing and release conditions have been met. Allowing ex-cons to have a say in the democracy in which they live is a powerful and meaningful signal that they are actual human beings with recognizable rights, that there can be life after prison.
posted by xyzzy at 11:05 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


I really don't think the Democratic party should be moralizing about anyone's marriage or sex partners (with obvious caveats for nonconsensual acts). It's not up to anyone but the spouses to determine what is and is not cheating and what is and is not allowed within the bounds of that relationship. I think Clinton would to best to just go with something like "Really, Donald? Really? You really think this is the most pressing issue facing our country right now?" (but more polished).
posted by melissasaurus at 11:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


The only word I could come up with when thinking about the Pence pardon refusal was: deplorable.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


They should've gotten Marcia Fudge to moderate. She would've gaveled that shit down.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Alright, Joy Reid just posted an interview she did with Carson Daly, and I am convinced she is one of us on this site. The interview is 4:30 long. Watch it and see the things she says and how she says them. Somebody who has a twitter account, ask her if she posts here. We don't need to know her actual account name, but I refuse to believe she isn't a mefite.

Also, watch her show on weekends. But yes, if any of you with a twitter account would be kind enough to ask if she posts here, that would be awesome. Right now she's on twitter talking about the vp debate.
posted by cashman at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


I realize this would be a political statement in the service of (important) political goals and not a moral one, but I'm actually super uncomfortable with the idea that the presidential candidate I support should tell everyone that divorce is only OK in the event of abuse. Hillary Clinton is not a better or worse person because she is still married to Bill through his infidelity.

And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue. Respecting their choice while asserting her own might be a hard needle to thread, but not that hard. It might even pay off.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


not that girl: I watched the debate last night because my nine-year-old wanted to. About 15 minutes in, my 12-year-old figured out what we were doing an joined us. We had bingo cards, which kept it fun, but my 12-year-old is probably the most knowledgeable person in the house on the topic of this election. He was refuting Pence like a pro

SecretAgentSockpuppet: my 13 year old is likewise better informed about the election than most adults. His friends too. They make trump jokes. I only hope they stay this engaged.

You raised your kids well. An update on [Jr. Miss] Trump, who barely won the high school election for school president -- she wasn't at school on the day of the vote, but when she came back, she was spouting nonsense about conspiracies she saw online regarding the first Presidential debate. She's solidly against HRC, and either on Team Donald or voting for "Google" Gary Johnson, most likely because of her parents' vocal views against Clinton(s). Apparently more kids joined her rants about Clinton conspiracies. My wife, the high school math teacher, credits these views to their parents.

These are kids in a small, rural school that is largely Native American, plus folks who live in the region, including some ranchers. For more context, one parent got upset because the biology textbook talks about watershed and/or riparian health, and that cattle can ruin these sensitive habitats.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.

Untrue — in Indiana felons automatically have their voting rights restored as soon as they are released. This is in fact better than many states, where felons do not have their rights restored until they complete their parole.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

I said in the previous thread that if Trump brings up Bill's infidelities, Hillary should just shrug and say "Sorry, Donald, that was a long time ago. Remind me, which marriage were you on then?"
posted by Gelatin at 11:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue.

I know several women, liberal and conservative, who are around Clinton's age and hate her, and they all left their husbands after they cheated on them.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Joy Reid uses the word "nothingburger" and I've never heard that term used anywhere other than here.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump raising Bill's infidelities would seem to me to be the perfect opportunity to whip out the old standby "I'm not going to dignify that with a response."
posted by Etrigan at 11:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


While we're talking about Trump supporters in high schools: Teens Suspended For Wearing ‘Trump 2016 White Pride’ Shirts To HS Pep Rally.

On a related note, NC Civil Rights Museum Receives Threats After Denying Trump A Tour:
After the International Civil Rights Center and Museum in Greensboro, North Carolina denied the Donald Trump campaign's request told hold a lengthy private tour for the candidate, the museum has received several threats, the News and Observer reported.

“The callers were threatening to come over and burn down the building and to shoot up the building,” John Swaine, the museum's CEO, told the News and Observer. “They’ve lessened in frequency this week, but they’re still coming in.”
This was the museum that said they wouldn't close down for 5 hours so Trump could be filmed walking around looking like he cares about civil rights.
posted by zachlipton at 11:20 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


I still think the right response is for her to say "I'm sorry, you must have mistaken me for my husband." Why anybody would think that she should bear responsibility for her husband's infidelities is beyond me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Why anybody would think that she should bear responsibility for her husband's infidelities is beyond me.

Patriarchy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen

And Tiffany is St.-Alia-of-the-Knife?
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jack Mitnick, Trump's former accountant, speaks: Is Trump A Tax Code Genius? Hardly, Says Former Trump Accountant
Donald Trump has claimed that the 1995 tax documents reported by the New York Times show he's understands "the tax laws better than almost anyone," but the accountant who prepared Trump's taxes that year threw cold water on Trump's claim in an interview published Tuesday.

"I did all the tax preparation. He never saw the product until it was presented to him for signature," the Trump family's former tax accountant Jack Mitnick told Inside Edition. "I’m the one who did all the work."
...
Mitnick gave a similar impression of Trump's involvement in the process in an interview with the New York Times. He said that Trump's first wife, Ivana, was more engaged in the tax preparation than Trump was. Per the New York Times:

In an interview on Wednesday, Mr. Mitnick said he could not divulge details of Mr. Trump’s finances without Mr. Trump’s consent. But he did talk about Mr. Trump’s approaches to taxes, and he contrasted Fred Trump’s attention to detail with what he described as Mr. Trump’s brash and undisciplined style. He recalled, for example, that when Donald and Ivana Trump came in each year to sign their tax forms, it was almost always Ivana who asked more questions.
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


Patriarchy.

Well, yeah, I didn't mean that last part literally. I guess I just feel like that level of misogyny ought to be so far beyond the pale as to not merit a substantive response. But there I go again, getting "ought" and "is" mixed up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


OK, I just did an on-site search for nothingburger and I have the options narrowed down. Joy, we're onto you! (And we love you! Call me!)
posted by mochapickle at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


It is perhaps indicative of what this election is like that I had to click on zachlipton's link to make sure that those Trump White Pride shirts weren't actual campaign merchandise.
posted by corb at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Mission Accomplished:
With the dawn of a new day we can see one thing clearly, Tim Kaine went into the debate with one mission: force a week of rehashing and relitigation of basically every lie, crazy idea and toxic rant we've heard from Donald Trump over the last year and a half. Whether he made [Pence] ignore the attack, deny the attacks or agree with the attacks didn't really matter. As it happened, he got one and two. Here's the Clinton campaign's rapid response video lining up every Kaine claim, Pence denial and Trump video saying it. It's a classic Pence Said, Videotape Said thing. Everybody now digs into to see who's telling the truth.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue

I've mentioned my dad's haterade for Hillary before, but the all-time number one Hillary hater in my family? By a wide, wide margin?

My grandmother, who spent decades being terrified about her husband being unfaithful to her. My God, how she hated Hillary for staying with Bill after all the sex scandals, and would go on long rants about what kind of low-class, non-self-respecting woman would stay with a man who cheated on her.

As a kid, it confused me. As an adult, it makes me super, super sad, because I understand now that she was projecting her doubt and fear and even self-hatred. She was my favorite family member for just about the entire time she was alive, and in so many ways, she and Hillary had so much in common -- smart, idealistic, passionate women raised in middle-class families who became tough as nails over the course of their lives and were the primary breadwinners for a long period while their glamorous husbands were building social capital.

tl;dr: patriarchy, the game that sets women against each other.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [58 favorites]


"Nothingburger" on Talking Points Memo in 2011.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have said nothingburger in this thread and I am definitely not Joy Reid, if that helps narrow things down.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hamilton's America Wants You to Vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm having flashbacks to the early aughts, when a certain number of goons were convinced Jon Stewart was a Something Awful user after his use of "comedy gold" on the air.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not seeing too much of a trend in the search; it looks most members who have said nothingburger have said it once or twice.

Note: I am not Joy Reid, but I do follow her on Twitter
posted by Existential Dread at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't give up on Ohio.

@ThePlumLineGS: New Monmouth poll of likely voters in Ohio:

Clinton 44
Trump 42
Johnson 5

http://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/MonmouthPoll_OH_100516/
posted by chris24 at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


GOP asks which Trump-Pence foreign policy is for real:
Will the real Republican foreign policy please stand up?

The morning after Mike Pence offered core foreign policy positions that diverged from those of his running mate, Donald Trump, Republicans puzzled over what to make of them and what, if anything, they might suggest about a potential Trump administration.

Not much, was the early consensus among Trump skeptics.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was hoping for a spartacus moment where we all say we are Joy Reid.
posted by mochapickle at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


I think the gentlest of aikido is her best response to having the infidelity stuff thrown at her.

"You're right, Donald, Bill and I have had some very, very difficult times in our marriage. And we made the choice to work it out."

And that's it. Just pivot back to actual issues if he presses. No need to justify her decisions any further than that or be all NO U w/r/t cheating.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


I wish I was Joy Reid, but alas, I am not.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2016


Whether Joy Reid is here or not, this is kinda gross. If someone wants to use a pseudonym, let them.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind national poll

Clinton: 50
Trump: 40

Sep 28 - Oct 2, Likely Voters, +/- 4.4%
posted by strange chain at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Nothingburger in the Washington Post, 1984.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I saw that poll earlier today and considered posting it here, strange chain. It's definitely Clinton's strongest national poll in some time, and from a quality pollster too.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016


"Nothingburger" is first documented in 1953, apparently. Huh.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mod note: Y'all, let's (a) not read too much into political jargon showing up in more than one obsessive political wonkery context and (b) in any case not let the Hey I Bet They're A Mefite goofing stray too far into uncomfortable territory as far as site norms about identity.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


In my defense, the interviewer didn't recognize the term either.

(dropping this now tho)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:37 AM on October 5, 2016


Looks like it's safe for me to go back to 538 again! Cuz, you know, their models are terrible and flawed and clickbait when Hillary is at 55% but completely accurate and unassailable when she's at 75%. It's like Schroedinger's Poll Aggregator Quality.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [29 favorites]


OK, I just did an on-site search for nothingburger and I have the options narrowed down. Joy, we're onto you!

Urban Dictionary: nothingburger - we're not alone.


kirkaracha: It's a classic Pence Said, Videotape Said thing. Everybody now digs into to see who's telling the truth.

Wait, what digging do you need to do? Find the context of those statements that directly contradict Pence's repeated "no he didn't" comments? Because there's not a lot of context that would change those from "blatant contradiction" to "meant nothing of the sort," which is the only reversal that matters at this point.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016


Got it. I was joking about Joy Reid being here. I should have made that clearer.
posted by mochapickle at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


"You're right, Donald, Bill and I have had some very, very difficult times in our marriage. And we made the choice to work it out."

Very nice, and subtle. I would add one slight, friendly, concerned addition at the end.

"It's tough, isn't it? What was it like dealing with infidelity issues in your marriages, Donald?"
posted by msalt at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Whether Joy Reid is here or not, this is kinda gross. If someone wants to use a pseudonym, let them.

We just want to shower her with roses. It's not like we're giving her a banjo or something.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [19 favorites]


filthy light thief: Wait, what digging do you need to do?

Those clips were short and straight cuts, not giving much room for sweet, sweet can type edits.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Soren, I put a lot of stock in 538's models, but I take their punditry with a grain of salt. I mean, it's no worse than most and better than many, but it's still just a bunch of (smart, wonky) people sitting in front of a pile of steaming entrails and trying to make sense of it all. Still, I tend to think their actual modeling is solid, if one doesn't try to read more into them than is reasonable. But then, I'm just some guy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Roses or not, people should be given the choice of whether or not their real name is associated with their account here. It shouldn't be made for them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


The phrase Pence in Gallicantu has been stuck in my mind thanks to Kaine's call out to Mark 14:30. The Church of St. Peter in Gallicantu is one of my favorite holy sites.
posted by humanfont at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2016


It seems everyone wants Hillary to turn it back on Donald if he brings up marriage infidelity.

But, I really hope she doesn't. It goes nowhere. The simple acknowledgement and keeping it about herself, followed by two minutes to talk about some actually important issue is the way to go.

At the end of the day, just because an attack turns out to be hypocritical doesn't change much. We all have our values, and we all go to sleep with a hypocrite each night. It can sound fun to rub folk's noses in it, but I don't think it changes minds - and definitely not unless you can directly connect it to some alternate proposed action. And that's where this whole line of counter-attack fails.

Presidential elections are not, and should not be, about candidate's marital past, and Trump even bringing it up will already smell of desperation. Just move along and let that stench linger.
posted by meinvt at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


NYC: With the election just weeks away, some local stores are going all out lampooning Donald Trump
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought the "very, very rough stuff" that Trump wanted to throw in her face at the last debate was about Chelsea's parentage, not Bill's infidelity. The Chelsea stuff is straight out of the far out fever swamps and it is so far beyond the pale[*] that I could see Hillary being taken aback by its crassness.

I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying? Even far out on the right wing, how does that matter? Bill cheated on you and so will Russia?

Or is it that she kept her marriage together in spite of Bill's lapses? That's the horrible thing? How? Isn't that the conservative position?

I know I'm not the target audience, but I don't see how any of these lines (even, or especially, the absolutely loathsome and vile Chelsea stuff) have any traction at all. Clinton can pin Trump down with a look of withering scorn and ... and ... what's Trump's endgame there? She doesn't even have to respond.

[*] Yes, John McCain, I won't ever forget your little "joke".
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:47 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nobody here is out to dox anyone. Can we just drop it?
posted by mochapickle at 11:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

Yep. Because there are those who think that no matter who it is who actually cheats in the marriage, it's the woman to blame.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Alright, Joy Reid just posted an interview she did with Carson Daly, and I am convinced she is one of us on this site.

Joy, if you're here, tell us how we can get you MTP or otherwise make you Queen of the News
posted by schadenfrau at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh look what the Wall Street Journal is covering now.

Extra bonus points for this being sent out as a notification from their phone app.

WSJ: Donald Trump Often Made Donations to State Attorneys General Reviewing His Business
posted by Jalliah at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


Yikes. Sorry I brought it up.

~End Joy Reid discussion~
posted by cashman at 11:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Trump's angle is supposed to be that Hillary helped intimidate Bill's mistresses, or silenced his rape victims.
posted by argybarg at 11:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

There are a lot of people (on both sides of the proverbial aisle) who don't like how Hillary (allegedly) went after some of the women Bill was unfaithful with.
posted by Etrigan at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Look, if Donald wants to bring out some of the really out there, super-gross conspiracy fantasies that people have about Hillary, he's welcome to. In the eyes of anyone who isn't already totally in the tank for him, it's just going to expose him for the complete loon that he is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Watch: Mike Pence Shakes His Head at Things That Are True
Watch all the times Trump’s running mate shook his head, laughed, and/or said, ‘That’s nonsense!’ to things that have clearly happened.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I absolutely agree with meinvt--the media is already doing much of this work for the HRC campaign by simply pointing out that three guys with nine marriages between them hardly have any room to be the moral authority on this one. Jake Tapert's palpable disgust for this topic seems to be shared by many of the commentators and pundits.

I do recall many women, including my own mother, being disgusted with Hillary for standing by her man. But since then I think that there's been some humanization that feminists and conservatives alike can applaud. Feminists seem primed to view the marriage as either transactional or none of their business and religious conservatives will appreciate the dedication to marital vows. Going further, even HRC's anger at the other women is understandable and empathatic and not necessarily a call to arms for feminists. I mean, I consider myself a feminist and felt no less angry and betrayed by the other woman in past telationships. Not the ideal response, but emotions are messy.
posted by xyzzy at 11:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


A while back, 538’s Farai Chideya did a join podcast with NPR’s Asma Khalid on the Republican voters. They’ve just put together on a follow-up on the Democratic voters. (There will eventually be a third podcast on independent voters.)
posted by Going To Maine at 11:58 AM on October 5, 2016


Even Trump isn't enough of a fool to lob her a softball like infidelity. Hilary has three different angles she could take on it, all of which are line drives into his face. She'd probably take the high route with something like prize bull octorok suggests. Reason #3,452,123,093 I could never be president is that I would immediately turn it around on him and point out that he's been married to Melinea longer than to either of his previous wives, and given precedent, how much longer is he planning to wait before he trades her in for a newer model?
posted by Mayor West at 11:59 AM on October 5, 2016


In the eyes of anyone who isn't already totally in the tank for him, it's just going to expose him for the complete loon that he is.

Not to mention that it will come out as, "And, you know, this thing, this thing that I really wasn't going to mention, with Secretary Clinton and, you know, I told myself I wouldn't mention it, said I wouldn't mention it, but this question about Secretary Clinton and the badger, you know, folks, really."

And the alt-right will cream its collective khakis, but nobody else will have any idea what he's talking about.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


married to Ivanka

In his dreams!
posted by mochapickle at 12:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Though the Bill Clinton rape allegations are honestly troubling. If we end up with President Trump because Bill Clinton is a motherfucking rapist, I don't know what I'll do.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


In his dreams!

Eek. Freudian slip?
posted by Mayor West at 12:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


point out that he's been married to Ivanka longer than to either of his previous wives, and given precedent, how much longer is her planning to wait before he trades her in for a newer model?

I think the Trump projection containment field has failed and it's leaking into the rest of us
posted by strange chain at 12:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


IIRC there was also a line of attack along the lines of "Hillary stayed with Bill because its a sham marriage for political power" which is super ludicrous, I honestly think she'd have done even better in her political career had she left Bill. It's just another part of that tired "I don't know why but I just don't trust her" thing.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

It's...not that. Honestly, they could forgive that. The conservative position is that man is inherently flawed, and even the best of women will have a hard time keeping their men 100% true.

It's that Hillary seemed like it didn't matter to her - that her staying was not because she loved and wanted to help him, but because she needed Bill for her political ambitions. That she went after the other women - disparaging them in the press, dismissing their stories, etc - specifically so that his political future - and thus, hers - would not be impacted.

And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.
posted by corb at 12:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why Did Indiana State Police Raid A Voter Registration Group's Office?:
In Indiana, an investigation into alleged voter registration fraud intensified rapidly Tuesday when state police reportedly raided the Indianapolis office of a voter registration group and confiscated computers, personal cell phones and paperwork, according to a report from the Intercept.

The Intercept reported that workers at the site told them that state police stopped one person from recording the incident and that the group's lawyer said he was unable to enter the building.

State police are investigating the Indiana Voter Registration Project's efforts in nine counties after claims that the group fraudulently registered voters, according to the Indianapolis Star. Indiana's Secretary of State Connie Lawson, who was a key sponsor of Indiana's 2005 voter ID law that went all the way to the Supreme Court where it was upheld– announced the investigation in September.

According to the Intercept, Lawson alleged that “nefarious actors are operating here in Indiana." The Intercept also wrote that Lawson had cited 10 individual voter registration forms as fraudulent. But, according to the Intercept, the state of Indiana doesn't allow voter registration forms – even those the group conducting the voter registration drive worries may be inaccurate– to be discarded without being looked over by the state.
This isn't Lawson's first time trying to suppress votes, and I doubt it'll be her last. And remember that it's not just Trump's people behind this War on Voting, it's almost the entire conservative movement.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [41 favorites]


It's making a mockery of marriage to stay? To do the predictable, hurt-wife action of casting aspersion on the other women who helped a cheating spouse violate their sacred vows?

Wow. The conservative mindset is a weird, twisted thing.
posted by palomar at 12:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


As opposed to adopting a fake name and posing as your own spokesman so you can dish gossip during your divorce in the press, that's not making a mockery of marriage?
posted by zachlipton at 12:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


but because she needed Bill for her political ambitions.
I get that this is a thing but I find it kind of hilarious. He's still crazy popular for some reason, but his gaffes with the Attorney General "meeting" at the airport and his trash talking of Obamacare are things Hillary has had to clean up. I don't think that she would necessarily be better off without him, but there's some trade-off for her staying with him for sure.
posted by xyzzy at 12:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


But then, I always forget the part where there's that rabid hatred of Hillary among conservatives, that anything she says or does is an excuse to trash her, even when the things she's saying and doing are things conservatives do themselves every single damn day. I forget that her real crime is not being the passive, silent, long-suffering wife who knows her place and stays in the kitchen and pumps out babies and never, ever tries to have her own mind.

Thank god I grew up in a liberal household.
posted by palomar at 12:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


I thought the "very, very rough stuff" that Trump wanted to throw in her face at the last debate was about Chelsea's parentage, not Bill's infidelity. The Chelsea stuff is straight out of the far out fever swamps and it is so far beyond the pale[*] that I could see Hillary being taken aback by its crassness.

Trump has demonstrated -- as recently as the first debate -- that he swims in the sketchiest tide pools of right-wing conspiracies and believes that stuff. I hadn't heard the stuff about Chelsea's parentage (no doubt they imagine that Sidney Blumenthal is the father) but FFS, Chelsea looks just like Bill.

I would've have guessed Trump might go with the Huma Abedin + Hillary lesbian affair angle. Either way, she has has to murmur something about his temperament, after a long exasperated pause, and he's done.
posted by msalt at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2016


I forget that her real crime is not being the passive, silent, long-suffering wife who knows her place and stays in the kitchen and pumps out babies and never, ever tries to have her own mind.

You forgot doesn't bake cookies! SHE DIDN'T BAKE COOKIES PEOPLE!
posted by Talez at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.

That's obviously not what it really is, given the offenses of Trump and so many other Republican men who continue to get their support. What's unforgivable to them is being a Democrat, and this is something they can slot into their worldview to justify their already determined conclusion.

I'm all for attempting to bridge actual divides, but you can't rationally discuss a bullshit fig-leaf with someone. This condemnation of someone else's marriage that didn't end in divorce is firmly in that camp.
posted by phearlez at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think the conservative position on marriage is quite in line with Trump's position: "Putting a wife to work is a dangerous thing." Everything women do outside of paid employment isn't "work" and women entering paid employment are assuming the risk that their marriage will fail as a result (and therefore can be blamed if the marriage, in fact, does fail or falter).
posted by melissasaurus at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.

But then why do they seem to be fine with prominent conservative men like Gingrich, Giuliani, and Trump himself making a mockery of marriage?
posted by Gelatin at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


It's only unforgiveable when they can pin the blame on the woman. 5 wives between the last 3 Republican nominees and 19000 infidelity scandals between the all male Republican architects of the impeachment doesn't merit notice, no mockery there.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


In today's WTF: PA GOP source heard from mult pastors: "Evangelicals believe God is using Trump to deliver Pence to the WH, & that Trump will be eliminated"
posted by drezdn at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


More news from the frontlines of the War on Voting:
The Kankakee prosecutor on Tuesday announced an “unprecedented” investigation into allegations of “individuals from Chicago” offering gifts to residents in exchange for votes — only to have his office itself accused of harassing and intimidating voters.

The Kankakee County State’s Attorney’s Office said it opened the voter fraud investigation in response to allegations that “gifts” were given to voters in exchange for a vote for Democratic state Rep. Kate Cloonen, presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, and “others.”

The state’s attorney’s office on Tuesday called the investigation an “unprecedented action,” saying it will also focus on the authenticity of vote-by-mail requests.

Kankakee County State’s Attorney Jamie Boyd, a Republican, said politics is “in no way involved in this.”

But union leaders and a Democratic former state representative turned the tables on the state’s attorney’s office, saying instead that, voters have been “harassed and intimidated” by local officials, including the state’s attorney’s office, sheriff’s office and county clerk.

Boyd said he would have no comment on any counter charges against him.
Accusations of voter fraud by sneaky black men"individuals from Chicago" are just as predicatable as accusations of harassment from conservative white elections officials. The difference is that the former doesn't really exist, but the second happens all the time.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


The thing is, right, there are legitimate feminist grounds for feeling queasy about her response to the Bill Clinton rape allegations, and we've come a long way culturally with respect to seeing things like (confirmed) affairs with interns for the power imbalances they are. There's a halfway decent feminist critique of Hillary's response to the situation, though you'd have to pass it through the lens of changing times and an imperfect human dealing with a deeply personal situation. But there's no way Trump can make that argument. He hold zero cards in the game and doesn't remotely understand the subtleties of victim-blaming he'd have to dance around, especially when Roger Goddamn Ailes is on the debate prep team.
posted by you're a kitty! at 12:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


But then why do they seem to be fine with prominent conservative men like Gingrich, Giuliani, and Trump himself making a mockery of marriage?

See also Reagan... And IOKIYAR.
posted by drezdn at 12:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I've always thought the marriage stuff was because Hillary had the nerve to pursue a political career of her own after Bill's presidency. The correct line for betrayed political wives after a scandal is to lay low and stay out of the public eye. It's absolutely not the done thing to hit the campaign trail ASAP.

Even Al Gore was pressured to distance himself from Bill Clinton during his presidential run in 2000. Hillary Clinton said "fuck that", ran for senate, and won.
posted by Sara C. at 12:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


My temptation were I Clinton and Donald blathered about my marriage would be to fold my hands and look at Donald patiently a few moments, than ask "Whenever you're ready, feel free to ask me a question relevant to the position we are both running for. I'll wait."

I'm sure she has something better though.
posted by emjaybee at 12:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


it is so far beyond the pale[*] that I could see Hillary being taken aback by its crassness.

During the 'Clinton Tapes' era, she misheard accusations that she was having sex with a colleague as "sex with a collie", which should indicate how it's always been crass and nutso and beyond the pale.
posted by holgate at 12:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump being like Cyrus has been a thing in the Evangelical community for a while. It's just a hop and skip from there to "And anyway God will whack him and then we'll get our one true love, Mike Pence."
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Trump Rally in Nevada has begun-

@KatyTurNBC - "Mike Pence did an incredible job and I'm getting a lot of credit" - Trump

@KatyTurNBC - Trump bragging that Pence was his first hire and now he's getting credit for making such a good choice
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


In today's WTF: PA GOP source heard from mult pastors: "Evangelicals believe God is using Trump to deliver Pence to the WH, & that Trump will be eliminated"

This sounds like the sort of thing a certain kind of evangelical would think: "Pence is the leader we need, but Americans are too blinded by sin to understand that."

So God is cleverly arranging things in a very characteristically baroque* kind of way to get the outcome He intends for his (new-new) chosen nation.

*I think God likes Gothic better, myself
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


PA GOP source heard from mult pastors: "Evangelicals believe God is using Trump to deliver Pence to the WH, & that Trump will be eliminated"

If true, this is deeply dangerous idiocy. I suspect, however, that it's mostly wishful thinking on the part of "PA GOP source."
posted by dersins at 12:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's a halfway decent feminist critique of Hillary's response to the situation

There really isn't. Hillary Clinton is not Bill Clinton.

At best, a "feminist critique" would involve shunning Hillary because she somehow didn't do enough to distance herself from Bill. Which doesn't make any sense and is frankly as misogynist as the virtually identical anti-feminist line.

Hillary Clinton is her own person and did what made sense for her in the wake of scandals that were entirely of Bill's making.

Is it bad that Bill Clinton had affairs with women he very obviously had almost inconceivable levels of power over? Does that make me kinda hate Bill Clinton, and definitely regard him as potentially a rapist? Yes. Does it mean anything much about Hillary? No. Because Hillary Clinton is not Bill Clinton.

Equating a woman with her husband is about as anti-feminist as it gets.
posted by Sara C. at 12:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [45 favorites]


Corb - I adore having someone translate the conservative mindset in these threads, especially since much of my family and community are staunch Republicans.

But I can't help it - the descriptions make me nauseous.
posted by hilaryjade at 12:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Evangelicals believe God is using Trump to deliver Pence to the WH, & that Trump will be eliminated"

FFS. I'm totally writing these people off. Luckily, I'm not actually connected to any Evangelicals either by work or family. I wish the rest of you luck if you have to encounter this, but I'm 100% out. There's no talking sense to these beliefs.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


@KatyTurNBC - Trump bragging that Pence was his first hire and now he's getting credit for making such a good choice

Dwight gave a great speech. That's the word on the street anyway. And I entertained Dwight to no end with my bar stories. So, I captivated the guy who captivated a thousand guys. Can you believe that? A thousand guys?
posted by Talez at 12:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I finally found the smoking gun in Hilary's email, her staffers don't know who Dave Brubeck is. Now that's unforgivable.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


Ok, wow, I was all up in arms (heh) when Trump fomented stochastic terrorism re: Hillary. I'm glad to see I'm not hypocritical-- stochastic terrorism re:Trump is also disgusting. (Maybe more so: God will get rid of him?!?)
posted by instamatic at 12:27 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


you're a kitty! I agree that if you take the time to think it over, you can make a cogent case that Bill Clinton being hypothetically a rapist is no reason not to vote for Hillary, especially against someone like Trump. If you further accept the hypothesis that Hillary helped intimidate his victims into silence (and there's at least one difficult-to-dismiss report that she did) it becomes harder, but I would still vote for her—albeit with nose held—because I view Trump as an existential threat to American democracy. However, I think that either of those things could cost her the election, because things are still pretty tight and if a few percentage points' worth of voters just stay home with queasy stomachs it could easily be enough to tip things in Trump's favor. That's honestly what I'm most worried about at the moment.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:28 PM on October 5, 2016


@aseitzwald: Trump on negative Dem TV ads: "I guess we'll sue 'em. Let's sue 'em."
posted by chris24 at 12:32 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


God will get rid of him?!?
God already sent a Christian candidate and her Christian running mate to help them out. This is like the parable offered up by the priest on The West Wing.
posted by xyzzy at 12:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


"Evangelicals believe God is using Trump to deliver Pence to the WH, & that Trump will be eliminated"

FFS, if g_d is all-powerful then he can deliver Pence to the WH Himself, and wouldn't need a shitbag like Trump. These people can't even get their incorrect theology to make sense.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:34 PM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


But then why do they seem to be fine with prominent conservative men like Gingrich, Giuliani, and Trump himself making a mockery of marriage?

Whoo boy. So remember when I was talking about the belief that men are inherently flawed and it's the job of their wives (and to a lesser extent, the community) to try to stop them? In that mindset, it's not a Very Bad Thing for a man to cheat, because he's expected to. What would be Dealbreaker Wrong would be if they had flagrant, public affairs that would shame their wife, or if they started taking significant money out of the household to support their affair. A man can sin, but he can't betray the marriage except by failing to support his family.

They can be hit on this, but really only by someone who understands the mindset.
posted by corb at 12:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


This thread moves so fast, by the time you prepare a decent post, the conversation's moved on.
Well POR, I always say. . . .

Don't give up on Ohio.

@ThePlumLineGS: New Monmouth poll of likely voters in Ohio:

Clinton 44
Trump 42
Johnson 5

Yard-sign report from Marcia Fudge's district 11, in NE Ohio
There are 86 houses on my street.
The yardsign count today:
 8 -- Clinton1
 0 -- Trump
 2 -- Sanders2
 1 -- Portman (R. sitting senator)
 2 -- Strickland (D. former gov, to replace Portman)
12 -- For a local school levy
 1 -- "Support Religious Freedom" 3
 2 -- "Support Reproductive Freedom" 4

I alternate between two routes daily. One goes through 8 towns, the other through 7. One route goes right past that AA megachurch where Trump chumped an audience of white people about black-on-black crime a few weeks back. This is basically from the Cleveland city limits to the expressway outerbelt. (That's right: I commute backwards.) I hit Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, University Heights, Richmond Heights, Highland Heights, Mayfield Heights, Mayfield, Lyndhurst, South Euclid, Beachwood(sic), Gates Mills and Pepper Pike5, and I'm not seeing any Trump signs at all. I see zero Trump signs on both routes. I do see Clinton signs in each suburb, but I'm not going to count them all.

During the primaries, there was one house out in the 1960s-white-flite area that had Trump signs out, but they took 'em down months ago. Also during the primaries, there was one house with a sign saying "[x] None of the above. We want better choices", but it's been gone a while.

I believe there are fewer signs (and bumper stickers) for both parties than the last time around, but the numbers are slowly increasing. I don't see any evidence of people being inhibited from putting out Clinton for President signs in NE Ohio.

Now maybe over in Parma6. . . .

-------------------------------------------------------
1 They're all pretty much the same design, the light blue one with the 'I'm with stupid arrow' in the H.
2 These've been up a long time.
3 This has been up for several years. I don't know what his deal is. He and his widow raised eight kids in a pretty small house, and has for years played Santa Claus for the kids on our street and is a founding member of our street association (1969!).
4 These've been up for years, too. They are the same sign as 3 above, modified with an extra bit of card with the word "REPRODUCTIVE" covering the word "RELIGIOUS".
5 I probably drive right past Faze's house a couple times a week.
6 PARM-ah?!
posted by Herodios at 12:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


If you further accept the hypothesis that Hillary helped intimidate his victims into silence (and there's at least one difficult-to-dismiss report that she did)

There is no evidence that this ever happened, and the one report I've seen, which I'm assuming is what you're referring to, amounts to "she was maybe passive aggressive to me one time". I'm one of your more strident feminists, especially when it comes to rape culture and silencing women who've been raped, and I find it really difficult to accept Juanita Broadrick's allegation that Hillary was somehow an accessory to rape because of her tone of voice at a campaign event.

Not to mention that there is a long and distinctly unfeminist history of assuming that women who are connected to bad men must have been involved with said men's crimes. There are women in jail right now for dating drug dealers. Could we not?
posted by Sara C. at 12:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [45 favorites]


FFS, if g_d is all-powerful then he can deliver Pence to the WH Himself,
A lot of people are saying that He's got a bunch of football games to manage, if the post-game interviews are any indication.
He's a busy deity, oh yes He is!
posted by Floydd at 12:40 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


FFS, if g_d is all-powerful then he can deliver Pence to the WH Himself, and wouldn't need a shitbag like Trump. These people can't even get their incorrect theology to make sense.

As an atheist I'm always surprised at the number of devoutly, passionately religious people whose opinion of God is far lower than mine.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [41 favorites]


They can be hit on this, but really only by someone who understands the mindset.

I sort of hope that Clinton can win without having to resort to pandering to militant misogynists.
posted by maxsparber at 12:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


> If you further accept the hypothesis that Hillary helped intimidate his victims into silence (and there's at least one difficult-to-dismiss report that she did

Is the story you're vaguely referring to that she said "thank you" to Juanita Broaddrick, and that that was somehow a threat? I don't find that difficult to dismiss at all.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:43 PM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


I used to pass 2 Trump lawn signs (on adjoining properties- might be both sides of a duplex, or two neighboring homes, hard to tell) on my way to work every morning. Shortly after the 1st debate, they both disappeared. Coincidence? I'd like to think not.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


If the polls remain anywhere like they are now, all Clinton really has to do about smears based on Bill's infidelities is to take the Michelle Obama tack of "when they go low, we stay high". Which is something Hillary has been doing on the matter of this very topic for at least 20 years now.

If the Republicans had gone Lewinski rather than emailgate prior to the conventions, I would be a little worried. But at this point they would have to cart Bill Clinton off to jail for the rape of Juanita Broadrick and bring in Hillary for questioning. Otherwise Hillary can just use the same response she's been successfully using for literally her entire political career.
posted by Sara C. at 12:46 PM on October 5, 2016


Yeah, that's the one. The reason I have a hard time dismissing it is that I've always been taught that it's wrong to dismiss the reports of rape survivors, that people who say they've been raped should generally be believed, and that we should trust women to know when they're being intimidated and silenced. I have a hard time sweeping that away just because it paints my candidate in a negative light. I am in no way trying to say that I think Broaddrick's case is definitive, but I do think there's some ambiguity there that's hard to resolve, and I think a sufficiently cynical opponent could use that to seriously harm Clinton's campaign. It wouldn't be necessary to prove it, it would be enough to cast doubt.

But the whole thing makes me feel gross and weird and I'm going to drop it now.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:47 PM on October 5, 2016


What would be Dealbreaker Wrong would be if they had flagrant, public affairs that would shame their wife, or if they started taking significant money out of the household to support their affair.

Trump boasted about how awesome his affair with Marla Maples was while he was still married to Ivana. Guiliani was showing off his mistress to the cameras and announced his divorce at a press conference before he told his then-wife. Gingrich was having an affair during the impeachment proceedings against Clinton. The latter two discussed divorce with wives that were recovering from cancer.

Let's face it, there's no logic of any sort here. Call it internalized misogyny, idiocy by way of self-inflicted political polarization, whatever. In the end, it's just massive hypocrisy and yet another reason why we should have no reason to believe that religious conservatives have any conviction behind their their stances in cultural wars that they're 100% responsible for starting, and no one should be making excuses for it anymore.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:48 PM on October 5, 2016 [58 favorites]


For the third time since The Atlantic’s founding, the editors endorse a candidate for president. The case for Hillary Clinton.
posted by PenDevil at 12:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


"when they go low, we stay high"

That's certainly the tactic I've been trying these last few weeks.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


At best, a "feminist critique" would involve shunning Hillary because she somehow didn't do enough to distance herself from Bill.

Don't get me wrong, I'm personally 10000% team Hillary on this and on most things. I absolutely don't hold her responsible for his conduct. I'm just saying that her original dismissive response to the allegations—with the major, major caveat that it wasn't HER actions but his, and her goddamn personal life is personal oh my god—are not what a public figure would ideally say in response to rape or harassment allegations in 2016. But I agree that it's a reach even today, given that SHE WAS NOT INVOLVED and that she had personal reasons to take that stance. And it's certainly not an argument a verified misogynist can make.
posted by you're a kitty! at 12:49 PM on October 5, 2016


See also Reagan... And IOKIYAR.

Of course Reagan, and Bill Clinton impeachment lead Henry Hyde, and Senator Larry "Wide Stance" Craig and more. I cited those three only because they're the current candidate and two of his prominent public surrogates who obviously feel no shame in criticizing an opponent's infidelity despite them being guilty of it themselves.

I sometimes wonder if the hypocrisy isn't deliberate in that it achieves the movement conservative aim of "pissing off liberals." It's certainly evidence that Republicans don't actually care about infidelity, or blame it entirely on the woman in either case.
posted by Gelatin at 12:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have spent most of today photoshopping pictures of Donald Trump pulling tiny flags out of his nose (pastemagazine.com, metro.co.uk)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [49 favorites]


Yard sign report from my frequent drive from my house to my parents' house (all of like 5 miles) is that Clinton/Kaine signs are multiplying like rabbits. There's one street where every house save one or two has a sign out. Bumper stickers are also noticeably increasing in number.

There's one Trump bumper sticker in my neighborhood (there's also a Cruz sticker, bless its heart), and one house several blocks away with a Trump yard sign. There's a few Trump shrines in the totally unsurprisingly still pretty racist Italian working class enclave to our East and that is really it for what I see when I'm driving around. Again, none of this is mega surprising, but there were more Romney signs out last time, to a noticeable degree. It's not like there's no Republicans here. But right now driving around, it does kind of look like there's no Republicans here except for a couple houses.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kurt Eichenwald's latest piece is up: Donald Trump's tax records: A tale of business failures
posted by zombieflanders at 12:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


What would be Dealbreaker Wrong would be if they had flagrant, public affairs that would shame their wife

Like Gingrich, Giuliani and Trump did?
posted by Gelatin at 12:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


When I drove through my in-laws very conservative county, I swear I saw more Hillary signs than I ever saw Obama signs, which is odd because in the city I live in, I've seen way less Hillary signs than I used to see Obama signs.
posted by drezdn at 12:53 PM on October 5, 2016


The charge is that she actively participated in the campaign to smear, discredit, and destroy the women involved in the various scandals.

Link? (Not being snarky here, would really like to see hard evidence of this beyond pearl-clutching Republican allegations.)

Because for real the only thing like this that I remember ever reading about beyond the misogynist "she must be guilty because under patriarchy she's effectively the same person as her husband", is Juanita Broadrick's allegation that she thanked her in an aggressive manner at a campaign event in the 70s.

I was in high school for the particularly scandal-ridden bits of the Clinton Administration, and while I wasn't following it obsessively, I haven't found a lot of credible evidence that she was part of any campaign to destroy the women involved. Again, unless by "destroy" you mean "take a potentially mean sounding tone with".
posted by Sara C. at 12:53 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I have spent most of today photoshopping pictures of Donald Trump pulling tiny flags out of his nose

Time well spent and I'm not even joking.
posted by mazola at 12:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


No lalex, I was specifically talking about the time that she is alleged by Juanita Broaddrick to have made veiled and deniable threats to her at a campaign event in an attempt to intimidate her into keeping silent about the time that Bill Clinton allegedly raped her in a hotel room. The rest of it I can dismiss or understand or look past, but that one bugs me and worries me and now I'm going to have to go take a walk or something.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


In my area I see 2-3 trump car stickers a day driving to work. Often it is almost always on fuel inefficient vehicles driven by white men.

I've seen only 4 Hillary stickers TOTAL on cars and many more Bernie stickers. They are always seen by the local college.

There is one trump sign down my street.

I hate living in the suburbs.
posted by 81818181818181818181 at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


The latest Google Consumer surveys poll is heartening. Clinton up by 5, and up by 3 in Ohio, since we are discussing my state. An interesting feature however is the large percentage still saying undecided: 19% nationally according to page 2.
posted by TreeRooster at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016


I'm just saying that her original dismissive response to the allegations—with the major, major caveat that it wasn't HER actions but his, and her goddamn personal life is personal oh my god—are not what a public figure would ideally say

Such tone policing

wow
posted by Sara C. at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Link? (Not being snarky here, would really like to see hard evidence of this beyond pearl-clutching Republican allegations.)

Same—it's entirely possible that I am working off of the same bullshit republican lies that I've been fighting, and would like to be corrected. This year has been an education in not inhaling the Clinton smear campaign that's been in the air my whole life.
posted by you're a kitty! at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


What this election has really revealed is that no matter what Clinton does, it is wrong. Clinton Derangement Syndrome means that the people who hate her already view her 100% of the time through the “did you see that bitch eating crackers” lens, wherein their hatred of her predetermines the wrongness of her actions, not the other way around.

If she had left Bill, that would have been wrong too, because most conservatives don’t actually respect women who leave their cheating/abusive husbands either (ask me how many evangelical women I have known who have been blamed for being divorced from scumbags). She also would have been called a terrible role model for Chelsea.

But regardless, whatever she does is wrong. If there had been no personal email server and she had only ever checked email within her physical office, that would have been fomenting terrorism by being out of touch. If there had been no personal email server and the govt servers had been hacked (as they indeed were), she would have been blamed for not guessing that the servers were insecure.

If she had rejected the overtures of the banks, she would have been damned for refusing to engage with her NYC constituency/industry. If she had given up on health care entirely, she would have been damned as a quitter.

There is literally not a single action Hillary Clinton can take that will not be painted as THE WORST WAR CRIME EVER because the people who hate her have already decided that everything she does is loathsome. It is INFURIATING to watch.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [112 favorites]


In the end, it's just massive hypocrisy and yet another reason why we should have no reason to believe that religious conservatives have any conviction behind their their stances in cultural wars that they're 100% responsible for starting, and no one should be making excuses for it anymore.

I personally wrote the evangelicals off in 1980, when they had a genuine Born Again evangelical Christian in the person of Jimmy Carter, and deserted him in droves to vote for Ronald Reagan.
posted by Gelatin at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [49 favorites]


I sometimes wonder if the hypocrisy isn't deliberate in that it achieves the movement conservative aim of "pissing off liberals."

Yeah, it's their idea of a gotcha question:"If you're such a feminist, why are you married to a MAN instead of touring the country in a lesbian manocide squad? Oh, no response? What a hypocrite. See, folks? Feminism is all a big lie by lying liars."
posted by melissasaurus at 12:56 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


They can be hit on this, but really only by someone who understands the mindset.

corb, I know you've had to do a lot of the heavy lifting explaining the opposing mindset to us, and I appreciate it. So it is with genuine curiosity, and not malicious intent, when I ask: you've described a situation where Hilary was Greatly Wronged. You've also told us that her reaction to it, and indeed any reaction to it, was enough to rile up the conservative base. Every possible thing she could have done, from loudly denouncing him and filing to divorce, to refusing to ever talk about it publicly, would now be retroactively used against her. In Platonic Ideal Conservative Land, what was she supposed to do about a serial philanderer husband?
posted by Mayor West at 12:56 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


just to clarify i am not the photoshopper in question. I was quoting/paraphrasing their facebook post
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


oh man this is amazing #noseflags
posted by Existential Dread at 12:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's only hypocrisy if you're self-aware while you do it. A well trained demagogue can toggle that switch at will.
posted by perspicio at 12:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


corb, I know you've had to do a lot of the heavy lifting explaining the opposing mindset to us, and I appreciate it.

So do I, and let me make one thing perfectly clear: it is not my intention to accuse corb of anything. I'm genuinely baffled, though, by an explanation that says "evangelical voters would only condemn an inherently sinful male if he went so far as to do x," when the three politicians I named did so publicly.
posted by Gelatin at 1:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


@aseitzwald: Trump on negative Dem TV ads: "I guess we'll sue 'em. Let's sue 'em."

What? Sue them for what? For using Trump's own words? As far as I'm aware, almost all of Hillary's ads use Donald's own awful words, plus personal testimony from voters. The non-Clinton affiliated PAC ads against Trump that I've seen do the same. Are there other "negative" Dem ads out there? Is threatening lawsuits over bog standard negative campaigning as outside the bounds of normal political campaigning discourse as I think it is?
posted by yasaman at 1:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is threatening lawsuits over bog standard negative campaigning as outside the bounds of normal political campaigning discourse as I think it is?

Yes. It's also outside the bounds of understanding how our legal system works.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


My guess is that Trump is used to living in a world where, as the big fish in the pond, he has the power to just sue anyone to make whatever he doesn't like go away. Even if you have no real grounds, threatening to sue a contractor or a piano dealer or a carpet installer or whoever will likely intimidate that person into stopping whatever it was that you didn't like.

But one's opponent for President of the United States isn't a New Jersey piano dealer, and I'm not entirely sure that the Trump apparatus understands that.
posted by Sara C. at 1:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


Sue them for what? For using Trump's own words?

Oh, yes, please! It's been a long time since I focused on journalism law, but if memory serves me correctly, the libel bar is higher for public figures (although I'd imagine Team Clinton could assemble enough statements to make a decent case for actual malice on Trump's part), and truth is an absolute defense.

Trump may rely on his legal team to get him out of paying his bills, but I'm sure the Hillary For President committee wouldn't mind at all if Trump sued them over using his own words -- it'd be a tacit admission of how damaging those words are, a huge waste of money -- I'd be surprised if any court was willing to touch the case -- and a sure-fire loser for Trump.

In fact, one of Clinton's surrogates might even challenge Trump that if he doesn't like hearing his own words -- for a change -- he darn well should sue. I wonder if Trump is really thin-skinned to fall into yet another obvious trap?
posted by Gelatin at 1:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


In my area I see 2-3 trump car stickers a day driving to work. Often it is almost always on fuel inefficient vehicles driven by white men.

I've seen only 4 Hillary stickers TOTAL on cars and many more Bernie stickers. They are always seen by the local college.

There is one trump sign down my street.

I hate living in the suburbs.

I love living in a suburb where I see Clinton stickers (and Obama) stickers on SUVs driven by young black women and on hybrids and sub-compacts driven by middle-aged white men.

Perhaps you live in the wrong suburb.
 
posted by Herodios at 1:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Students express fear of racism on campus: "PC RUN AMOK!"
Presidential candidate airs ad containing video of opponent's actual statements: "HERESY! CALL MY LAWYER!"
posted by melissasaurus at 1:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


Is threatening lawsuits over bog standard negative campaigning as outside the bounds of normal political campaigning discourse as I think it is?

Well, this is a campaign that's selling Hillary for Prison buttons on their website, normal political discourse is not part of the Trump campaign. Trump has a history of using the law as a weapon to intimidate people, something he learned from Roy Cohn.
posted by airish at 1:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Maybe when Trump said he'd "open up the libel laws" he was talking about literally opening up a book of libel laws and reading what they are, because he seems not to know.

(Trump? reading? unlikely)
posted by melissasaurus at 1:12 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I do think the abortion issue's main usefulness has been to allow very un-Christian behavior to get a pass on the part of Republicans. Because preventing abortion=saving babies from death, in that mindset, so anything else the politician does can be overlooked. Up to and including actions that harm actual born babies. At least when I was anti-choice that's how it was presented to me; Senator X did Bad Thing, but he voted to save babies, so we have to vote for him over Dem Y, who might have cared for the poor but didn't care about ending abortion, or worse, said it was ok.
posted by emjaybee at 1:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


No lalex, I was specifically talking about the time that she is alleged by Juanita Broaddrick to have made veiled and deniable threats to her at a campaign event in an attempt to intimidate her into keeping silent about the time that Bill Clinton allegedly raped her in a hotel room.

Let's be really clear about what we're talking about here. From the Buzzfeed profile of Broaddrick:

"Soon after, Broaddrick says, she ran into Hillary Clinton at a political rally Broaddrick had promised friends she would attend. Hillary shook her hand and thanked her for everything she had done for Bill. To Broaddrick, the gesture felt like a threat to stay silent."

There's literally nothing in Hillary's actions to suggest that she even knew who Broaddrick was, much less that she knew about the alleged rape. Which was not public at the time, meaning only Bill could have told her. "Veiled and deniable threats" is awfully strong language to describe a greeting that Hillary undoubtedly repeated to every single other volunteer at the event.
posted by acidic at 1:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [40 favorites]


Lalex, reading that article, about the most direct accusation it makes of Clinton herself, as opposed to "women in the Clinton camp" etc, is the following:
Mrs. Clinton referred to Monica Lewinsky, the White House intern who had an affair with the 42nd president, as a “narcissistic loony toon,” according to one of her closest confidantes, Diane D. Blair, whose diaries were released to the University of Arkansas after her death in 2000.
So... Hillary Clinton privately told a close friend that she didn't like a woman that her husband had cheated on her with.

If this is the smoking gun, there truly is nothing to tar Clinton with and it's probably best for all of us if we move on.

I agree that it sucks that Hillary wanted to discredit these women to hopefully make the scandals go away, and that this all looks pretty bad from the perspective of the state of feminism in 2016. But it's really unfair of us to apply such an insane standard of behavior on Hillary Clinton. Like... she was supposed to anticipate 20+ years of feminist progress? She was supposed to take the sides of women her husband cheated on her with and support them over her husband, her family, and her own ambitions? I don't love the optics of most of this, but it's not really a smoking gun unless you have Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
posted by Sara C. at 1:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [56 favorites]


For the record I think the Juanita Broadrick stuff is a lot worse, though I still don't entirely buy that Hillary's intent was to be threatening. I'd want a hell of a lot more evidence than a handshake at a campaign event before assuming that Hillary was an accessory to rape, which is what Broaddrick has alleged.
posted by Sara C. at 1:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


PENCE during the VP debate:

But for me, I would tell you that for me the sanctity of life proceeds out of the belief that -- that ancient principle that -- where God says before you were formed in the womb, I knew you, and so for my first time in public life, I sought to stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life.

From a Bustle article:

In a televised CNN governor’s panel in February 2014, Pence expressed his perspective on the death penalty in his home state of Indiana. In response to the question of the death penalty ever being removed from the law there, Pence responded:

I don’t see that prospect in the state of Indiana. I support the death penalty. I believe justice demands it in our most heinous cases.

(Emphasis mine)
posted by Emmy Noether at 1:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


In my area I see 2-3 trump car stickers a day driving to work. Often it is almost always on fuel inefficient vehicles driven by white men.

fuel inefficient vehicles

I’m skeptical that type of car -beyond a few extreme edge cases about which we may fantasize- are a great proxy for party membership.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:18 PM on October 5, 2016


CNN's KFile, the new home of Buzzfeed Andrew, has found two more Playboy videos with Trump in them. Including one where he interviews Playmates and takes Polaroids of them.
posted by chris24 at 1:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


In Platonic Ideal Conservative Land, what was she supposed to do about a serial philanderer husband?

I'm not 100% on this, because I'm really a translator here - I have some conservative beliefs but this is not one of mine - but the general response that seems to get praise or at least acceptance is "retiring from the world to work on our marriage." So she "should", by this model, have let Bill finish out his term, and worked stuff out privately, not rejoining public life until Bill had repented and came back to his role in the family. The sin is in placing things of the world - career, ambition- over the family.

I'm genuinely baffled, though, by an explanation that says "evangelical voters would only condemn an inherently sinful male if he went so far as to do x," when the three politicians I named did so publicly.

Honestly, I don't know. I wasn't a conservative back then. But at least now, none of them is particularly popular with the religious Republicans that I hang out with. They may support them over Dems, but they don't seem to actually like them.
posted by corb at 1:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Including one where he interviews Playmates and takes Polaroids of them.

Yeah but he's going to ban abortion so... *shrug*
posted by PenDevil at 1:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


if he doesn't like hearing his own words -- for a change -- he darn well should sue. I wonder if Trump is really thin-skinned to fall into yet another obvious trap?

Trump is; his lawyers aren't, and he can't file suit without them. He's not going to find a lawyer willing to file libel charges against a political ad that uses Trump's quotes.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.

Trump cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife. So did Giuliani. So did Gingrich.

Speaking of Gingrich, he was cheating on his wife with an aide when the Republicans were impeaching Clinton for lying about cheating on his wife with an aide. He resigned after the Democrats picked up seats in the 1998 mid-term and was replaced as de facto leader by Bob Livingston, who was also having an affair. Livingston resigned; his seat was filled by David Vitter, who paid for sex with prostitutes while serving in the House and Senate. Dennis Hastert, who sexually abused teenage boys, replaced Livingston as Speaker of the House. "Hot Tub" Tom DeLay was a reformed adulterer. "The difference between his own adultery and Gingrich's, he said, "is that I was no longer committing adultery by that time, the impeachment trial. There’s a big difference.'"

Henry Hyde, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, was an adulterer. So were representatives Dan Burton and Helen Chenoweth, who supported impeachment. Many of the Republicans who voted for impeachment were adulterers. Larry Craig, Pete Domenici, and John McCain all had cheated on their wives one way or another.

So, please, tell those "mockery of marriage" people to blow it out their asses.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [124 favorites]


Arizona Republicans are sick of Trump’s ‘annoying’ and ’embarrassing’ visits to their state:
One GOP Arizona operative says that he’s tired of his candidates being asked to answer for every word that comes out of Trump’s mouth.

“Every time he’s come, it kind of sucks up all the energy from everything else going on,” the Republican said. “If you’re not attending [you’re asked], ‘Why not? Are you distancing yourself?’ If you are, it’s ‘Are you getting too close to him?’ It’s just kind of annoying from that perspective.”
posted by palindromic at 1:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah I was thinking about making this comment a couple threads ago: Whenever corb makes one of these comments laying out the conservative/Republican view of things - and I honestly think we all benefit from her efforts there - there are always at least six long comments responding in opposition, saying more or less the same thing. It feels like a very unfriendly dogpile.

I don't mean to speak for corb here; I'm saying that I feel uncomfortable reading it. This go-around is less uncomfortable than usual because they're shorter comments and generally more appreciative. So that's good.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 1:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [53 favorites]


Trump is; his lawyers aren't, and he can't file suit without them. He's not going to find a lawyer willing to file libel charges against a political ad that uses Trump's quotes.

Well, he found a lawyer to sue Bill Maher for $5M because Trump could "prove his father wasn't an orangutan." So, I wouldn't be surprised if he found a lawyer to take up this bogus suit.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Re: Poloroids and Playboy -- Trump's a super creep super creep he's super creepy.
posted by humanfont at 1:27 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, he found a lawyer to sue Bill Maher for $5M because Trump could "prove his father wasn't an orangutan." So, I wouldn't be surprised if he found a lawyer to take up this bogus suit.

Works on contingency?
No, money down!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:29 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Quick musical interlude: The Boston Globe wrote a short item about my efforts to busk with Tim Kaine. Apparently someone forwarded this article and the video to Paul Westerberg's people, and Paul is said to have liked the clip.

If I had any evens left, they are gone now.
posted by pxe2000 at 1:29 PM on October 5, 2016 [65 favorites]


I don't really get any of this as dogpiling on corb. We are dogpiling on the hypocritical asshole conservatives who pull this shit.

The reality is that there is no rational reason that what Bill Clinton did was worthy of impeachment while what dozens of other Republican politicians have done was excusable. You can see that there is a reason, and it is "we hate you and will use anything we have to make you go away", or maybe you can just chalk it up to complete irrationality and tribalism. You could also chalk it up to stupidity, or media illiteracy, or the general conservative slant of the media over the last 30 years or so (much of what kirkaracha writes was not widely known at the time or covered with the same bombast as that of Clinton's scandals).

If corb does not want us to blow holes in her reasoning, she is free to stop coming up with said reasoning. All of us are free to stop posting anytime we want.
posted by Sara C. at 1:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Buzzfeed posts three of Trump's bankruptcy filings.
posted by chris24 at 1:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh, yes, please! It's been a long time since I focused on journalism law, but if memory serves me correctly, the libel bar is higher for public figures (although I'd imagine Team Clinton could assemble enough statements to make a decent case for actual malice on Trump's part), and truth is an absolute defense.

Hey, soooo.... if Trump sues Clinton for libel, and truth is a defense, doesn't that mean that Clinton gets to like, uh I have no idea how to say this with big legal words. What I mean is, does she get to go through his stuff to prove that what she's saying is true. Is it called discovery maybe?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also as someone from a red state with lots of conservative churchy family, no, there's no overarching Family Values Logic here. They just hate the Clintons really really a lot. Mostly because they are habituated to it.
posted by Sara C. at 1:34 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


Well, he found a lawyer to sue Bill Maher for $5M because Trump could "prove his father wasn't an orangutan." So, I wouldn't be surprised if he found a lawyer to take up this bogus suit.

To be clear, we have a justice system that doesn't manage to guarantee a lawyer to children facing deportation or people who have just had tens of thousands of their dollars seized in a forfeiture proceeding because protecting people's rights that way would be too costly. That same justice system was perfectly content not to sanction Trump for wasting its time over whether the orangutan offer was a joke or a serious proposal.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


From The Atlantic's stellar endorsement: His affect is that of an infomercial huckster; he traffics in conspiracy theories and racist invective; he is appallingly sexist; he is erratic, secretive, and xenophobic; he expresses admiration for authoritarian rulers, and evinces authoritarian tendencies himself. He is easily goaded, a poor quality for someone seeking control of America’s nuclear arsenal. He is an enemy of fact-based discourse; he is ignorant of, and indifferent to, the Constitution; he appears not to read.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


Yes, tivalasvegas, the defendant in a lawsuit has the right to discovery of documents, the right to depose witnesses, and various other discovery rights.
posted by prefpara at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


If corb does not want us to blow holes in her reasoning, she is free to stop coming up with said reasoning.

People here are asking, "what are they thinking?" and corb is nice enough to explain what they--and not necessarily her-- are thinking.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [76 favorites]


Paul is said to have liked the clip

Well, that is a win for life!
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sure, but we have the right to disagree with corb's take if we want. I haven't seen any personal invective against her. I feel for her being the only conservative in the room, but that doesn't make her opinions any more valid than anyone else's. She's free to stop playing Conservative Flexible Morals Translator anytime it gets tedious.
posted by Sara C. at 1:42 PM on October 5, 2016


Yay for two reasons:

-more briar patches for Hillary!

-I don't look like a total idiot even though my only legal training is from wikipedia
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:42 PM on October 5, 2016


The White Stripes reunite to tell Trump and his supporters not to use their music:
It’s been a big year for musicians telling political candidates to stop using their songs without approval, with Everlast, R.E.M., Aerosmith, Adele, late composer Jerry Goldsmith, and the Rolling Stones all getting mad at Donald Trump recently for his unauthorized use of their music. Now, as reported by Pitchfork, The White Stripes have gotten back together to release a statement demanding that Trump’s campaign and its supporters stop using their music as well. Apparently, there’s something about this Trump guy that just makes everybody dislike him. It’s very strange and impossible to explain.
posted by palindromic at 1:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]




You can't always get what you wa-ant.
 
posted by Herodios at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


....late composer Jerry Goldsmith....all getting mad at Donald Trump recently for his unauthorized use of their music.

Even the deceased can't stand that guy!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:47 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


The White Stripes reunite to tell Trump and his supporters not to use their music:

Artists getting angry that someone with political views they disagree with has licensed their music is about as American as apple pie.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:48 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Even the deceased can't stand that guy!

The ungrateful dead.
posted by mazola at 1:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


I think people here are simply pointing out how obvious it is that the beliefs that corb is relaying to us cannot possibly be held in good faith
posted by moorooka at 1:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


humanfont: Re: Poloroids and Playboy -- Trump's a super creep super creep he's super creepy.

Do NOT ruin this song for me. I will not allow this election to destroy everything I love, man.
posted by Superplin at 1:51 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Not sure if this has made the rounds earlier, but in 2005 testimony to the Senate on renovations at the UN, Trump said this:
A lot of people think asbestos...a lot of people in my industry think asbestos is the greatest fire-proofing material ever made. And I can tell you that I've seen tests of asbestos, vs. the new material that's being used, and it's not even a contest. It's like a heavyweight champion against a lightweight from high school. But in your great wisdom, you folks have said asbestos is a horrible material, so it has to be removed.
[link - autodownloading pdf; emphasis added]

Would love to see a reporter ask him if he still thinks asbestos abatement is a bad idea. Trump/Pence: Asbestos/Cigarette Truthers.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


It's been covered here before, but that was several posts back. John Oliver did a bit about campaign songs, resulting in several artists teaming up to release Don't Use Our Songs.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:53 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sure, but we have the right to disagree with corb's take if we want.

Just make sure it's actually her take. Otherwise you're fighting with nothing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


George Stephanopoulos saying Hillary came to him with 'We have to destroy her story,' about a different woman.

That was Connie Hamzy. Her story:
Look, I met up with Clinton in a hotel lobby. The two of us went into something of an utility closet. We were about to do some things and a police officer walked in on us,” she said.
OMG! Consensual attempted sex shocker!

Also, per the NYT article, "Three people signed sworn affidavits saying Ms. Hamzy’s story was false."
posted by kirkaracha at 1:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


You joke about this, but I recently re-watched Dune with another MeFi-er, and one of the things that struck me was how Trump's penthouse decor looked a lot like the decadent palace of the failing Corrino Imperial regime.

I'm currently rereading Dune and I can't help envisioning Baron Harkonnen as Trump. I mean, Harkonnen is smarter, but still.
posted by threeturtles at 1:54 PM on October 5, 2016


@evale72: VIDEO: Trump says "on the east coast we call latinos hispanic" #thatmexicanthing http://ow.ly/yzm6100lHnm

Sure to help his numbers with latinx.
posted by chris24 at 1:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


The White Stripes reunite to tell Trump and his supporters not to use their music:

quick somebody shove a drum kit in front of Meg before she goes away again
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


Re: Clinton's behavior regarding her husband's affairs -- I feel like it's unfair to expect her to behave objectively in these situations.

More broadly, making this an issue you hold your nose over amounts to requiring politicians to be saints. They're not, and the ones who seem to be usually have at least a few skeletons they're hiding.

I'm electing someone who will make decisions for our country, not someone who will serve as a moral exemplar for children. Let's not confuse the two.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 1:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


re: Clinton Derangement Syndrome: I agree with Sara C. It's not so much the details of what Hillary (or Bill) did or didn't do, it's that conservative white evangelicals have loathed the Clintons since 1992 and give them the opposite of the benefit of the doubt at every opportunity.

Why? Partly because of abortion (through, as Official Evangelical Whisperer Fred Clark has pointed out, this wasn't always a line in the sand for evangelicals). Partly because of good solid Reagan-era propaganda, anti-communist rhetoric and anti-liberal sentiment. Partly because racism.

Regardless, once you really don't like someone you will keep finding ways to justify and expand your dislike. The neighbor who accidentally ran over your kid's bike might be forgiven if they're the one who always keeps an eye on your house when you're on vacation, or you might be just enraged forever at them if they're the one whose goddamn dog is always barking constantly in the yard and they never let it in, etc.

This is just that part of human nature / tribalism applied to political figures -- people neither they nor we will probably ever meet except maybe for a moment on a rope line.

For the same reason, I'm bemused by the obsession with the "America's Dad" persona of Tim Kaine. I mean I'm sure he's a very nice fellow. But it's been really interesting to see this whole persona be constructed in a few weeks by a few million people who have never actually interacted with him or seen him acting in anything but the most spotlighted and unnatural of situations.

It's interesting to me to read or hear interviews with people who know these politicians intimately. I think one of the major political podcasts had Huma Abedin on to talk about Hillary a month or two ago, and obviously one can gain some insight into someone's personality that way. But really a lot of our assessments are just projection, for good or for evil.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [19 favorites]


I’m Latino. I’m Hispanic. And they’re different, so I drew a comic to explain.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [58 favorites]


Regardless, once you really don't like someone you will keep finding ways to justify and expand your dislike.

AKA Bitch Eating Crackers syndrome. As far as many people on the right are concerned, Hillary Clinton keeps eating those crackers like she owns the place.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [25 favorites]


I think people here are simply pointing out how obvious it is that the beliefs that corb is relaying to us cannot possibly be held in good faith

I understand why you and others feel this way, but I think this part is sometimes frustrating. Because I deeply believe that most of the people I've met during the course of this process are people who sincerely believe their (sometimes wrong) beliefs, and I feel like somehow I'm failing at getting that across. Honestly I've learned a lot as well from embedding with the Cruz Crew too - these were never my people. But living with them, working with them - I've learned to look at their actual beliefs. Even when objectively wrong, like the antivax stuff. Even the people now going for Trump who are being duped into it.

And I think if we're ever going to progress as a country, we have to be able to at least understand each other's views /as the person holding them understands them/, even if we don't agree. Maybe that's Pollyanna of me, I don't know. But we have to find a way out of this deep divide somehow. We have to.
posted by corb at 2:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [82 favorites]


And not to just hammer on "tribalism" but that's what much of reflexive conservatism is, and it's a thing all humans are prone to. Most people (of any political persuasion) don't question the ethics they are raised in, because they are comfortable or because they just don't examine their lives that deeply. It's not surprising that people getting the short end (women, minorities) are more likely to question/leave conservatism, because they see the gaps.

Even then, there's a lot of assumptions built into your brain from an early age in a conservative family--good people do what they are told by authority, people who look like us are good people, it's bad to ask questions that embarrass or upset others, the way things are is natural and right and if you aren't fitting in it's on you to try harder instead of complain, and so on.

When I left my conservative herd, it wasn't a noble principled thing; I just had the wrong type of personality for obedience. I didn't choose to be that way and it often brought me grief. It often puzzled other people who were more complacent or less angry or more afraid.

And I understand that fear. Leaving my faith, especially, was hard and lonely. I am not close to my family, even though I love them, we are strangers to each other. I can understand why someone would rather shut their eyes or live in denial than lose those ties and that certainty.

What's been encouraging in this horrible campaign season is to see that some people who I had given up on do, in fact, have a limit to their loyalty and it is Donald Trump. It's a tiny bit of common ground but I will take it.
posted by emjaybee at 2:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


Yeah, I'll confess that Hillary used to be a bit of a BEC for me. I have kind of had to claw my way out of that. Part of it was honest to gosh being a liberal who did not appreciate the triangulation (but was also too young at the time to understand the sometimes-necessity of it). Part of it was my antipathy towards Bill rubbing off on her (really dude, you can't keep it in your pants while you're fucking President and your every move is being watched by someone?). But once I re calibrated my view of her to get rid of the caricature I'd been fed for a couple decades, my issues with her dialed way down from "god she's just the worst, why does she have to be my candidate?" to "she's an accomplished, competent, brilliant woman who sometimes made some decisions that I didn't agree with but whose heart is in the right place."
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [25 favorites]


I’m Latino. I’m Hispanic. And they’re different, so I drew a comic to explain.

Interesting that the author considers Brazilians to be fellow Latinos; it’s definitely not something I would have done.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


My guess is that Trump is used to living in a world where, as the big fish in the pond, he has the power to just sue anyone to make whatever he doesn't like go away. Even if you have no real grounds, threatening to sue a contractor or a piano dealer or a carpet installer or whoever will likely intimidate that person into stopping whatever it was that you didn't like.

But one's opponent for President of the United States isn't a New Jersey piano dealer, and I'm not entirely sure that the Trump apparatus understands that.


The object is not to actually sue someone.
The object is to paint your opponent as a criminal. So when Trump says "I'll sue you.", it means that whoever he threatens to sue obviously did something illegal and reprehensible.
When the crowd chants "Lock her up," it means that HRC is obviously a criminal. And that's what people hear. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. The truth never really enters into it.

The Trump campaign understands exactly what they're doing.
posted by sour cream at 2:12 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I've seen bits and pieces of MSNBC today and the story seems to be that Pence lied about Trump's record. The Trump surrogates are unable to confront this. "Tim Kaine is annoying" "Tim Kaine is unhinged"
posted by zutalors! at 2:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Corb, I can believe that these people think the way they think, but I can't understand it. Within my thinking, and that's all the thinking I have, it doesn't make sense.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Would love to see a reporter ask him if he still thinks asbestos abatement is a bad idea.

I doubt you will get much mileage with this among conservatives. There are a lot of conspiracists, and Trump has stated that he is among them, that believe the World Trade Towers fell only because environmentalists restricted the amount of asbestos insulation used in their construction.
posted by JackFlash at 2:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I’m Latino. I’m Hispanic. And they’re different, so I drew a comic to explain.

Interesting that the author considers Brazilians to be fellow Latinos; it’s definitely not something I would have done.

(Incorrectly, I should add. I’m used to think of “Latin America” and “Central America” as synonyms, which isn’t right.)
posted by Going To Maine at 2:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I’ve seen bits and pieces of MSNBC today and the story seems to be that Pence lied about Trump's record.

So you’re saying that MSNBC thinks that Kaine won the debate.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:15 PM on October 5, 2016


late composer Jerry Goldsmith....all getting mad at Donald Trump recently for his unauthorized use of their music

something something deceased and desist letter
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


zombieflanders: Kurt Eichenwald's latest piece is up: Donald Trump's tax records: A tale of business failures
All of the tax information that has been publicly revealed—The Washington Post published figures for 1978 and 1979 in May, Politico reported in June he had paid no taxes in 1991 and 1993, The New York Times published 1995 information last week and further information from the 1970s show the same thing: Trump paying little or no taxes because of poor financial performance and huge mistakes he made in his business. Trump has steadfastly refused to release any tax returns on his own, but the headline numbers for the eight years of financial returns that have now been disclosed demonstrate that Trump’s self-celebrated business genius is a pose.
If you needed any proof that Donald sucks at business, beyond bankrupting at least 5 casinos.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oooh - 538 has a fun new toy for playing with state demographics to change the election: The Swing-O-Matic
posted by Going To Maine at 2:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Some videos of Trump visiting International Christian Academy in Las Vegas. He sure is a natural with kids!
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump has threatened lawsuits and sued people maliciously so often he has made media and people that have any relationship with him think twice before ever speaking out and it has served him well. How long did it take in this election cycle for people to start talking openly about him and his business practices? Tony Schwartz deserves a medal because he was the first to talk openly. I'm pretty sure he had the rare relationship where he wasn't covered by a non-disclosure. Trump has non-disclosures with his ex wives regarding their divorces.

He is one nasty character and I applaud those that have come forward because it takes guts.
posted by readery at 2:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


> Well, this is a campaign that's selling Hillary for Prison buttons on their website, normal political discourse is not part of the Trump campaign. Trump has a history of using the law as a weapon to intimidate people, something he learned from Roy Cohn.

The criminalization of political disagreement has become normal discourse for the GOP.
posted by homunculus at 2:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trolling, trolling, trolling...

@HillaryClinton: "Pence seemed intent on laying out the case for a Presidential candidacy—his own." http://ti.me/2cTxASN
posted by chris24 at 2:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]



The ungrateful dead.
The bottles stand as empty, as they were filled before.
Time there was and plenty, but from that cup no more.
Though I could not caution all, I still might warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.
posted by mikelieman at 2:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am tremendously glad, as the Time magazine article notes, that the narrative seems (in my bubble, and I know that matters) that Pence "was stuck playing defense." I'm not seeing links back or discussions of how "Pence indicted Hillary" as the GOP pages appearing well before the event hoped to trumpet.

The fact that we're not talking about how Pence smacked around Hillary? Means Kaine did his job, and likely did it well.
posted by clever sheep at 2:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [19 favorites]


@evale72: VIDEO: Trump says "on the east coast we call latinos hispanic" #thatmexicanthing

He's not entirely wrong about this, at least as of the 1970s-80s in the New York City area. My GenX LatinX wife (who grew up in Queens and Staten Island) has said the same thing since I met her. Probably no longer accurate for Millenials and younger though.

Interesting that the author considers Brazilians to be fellow Latinos; it’s definitely not something I would have done.

Brazilians and Portugese are the cutting edge of the categorical distinction though; not Hispanic since they don't speak Spanish. That's different from the fact that Hispanic is just kind of old-fashioned and not used much any more.
posted by msalt at 2:32 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Schwartz may have had an NDA that covered business details Trump revealed in the process of giving him material for the book, but not statements about writing the book or his opinions about Trump. Art of the Deal was published in '87 - long before the internet craze - so it probably never occurred to anyone involved that thirty years later, the ghostwriter might not only still have notable things to say, but also that they would get national attention.

NDAs for anything other than tax records or specific business-deal numbers were a lot less important before there was instant worldwide communication.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:34 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do we not say "Hispanic" anymore? Speaking as someone originally from the East coast.
posted by Justinian at 2:35 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I still call myself Hispanic and am a former East Coaster.
posted by corb at 2:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN chyron: Pence denies Trump said things he said

CNN's control room deserves a Pulitzer this year.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [19 favorites]


Corb, I can believe that these people think the way they think, but I can't understand it. Within my thinking, and that's all the thinking I have, it doesn't make sense.

Cognitive Frames. Your cognitive framing and theirs have no intersection.

Using an example from a dear friends 2nd marriage. His wife was sick, diagnosed with schizophrenia.

I couldn't understand her 'logic' or thought processes. And it was explained to me that THAT'S OK!

Because I'm not schizophrenic.

Donald Trump will get the 27% of people known to vote irrationally. Perhaps a bit more, perhaps a bit less. But despite the polling, that's where I'd put money on election night.
posted by mikelieman at 2:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary could say "My reasons for staying with my husband are between me, Bill, God and Kenneth Starr.
posted by drezdn at 2:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


chris24: @evale72: VIDEO: Trump says "on the east coast we call latinos hispanic" #thatmexicanthing

Do we not say "Hispanic" anymore? Speaking as someone originally from the East coast.

See kirkaracha's link: I’m Latino. I’m Hispanic. And they’re different, so I drew a comic to explain.

In New Mexico, there is a distinction between the Hispanics in the northern part of the state who trace their heritage back to Spain (though some families have lived in what is now know as New Mexico for a dozen or more generations) and they don't like to be grouped with the Mexicans or Latinos in the southern part of the state, whose families came from Mexico. (This is also the state where a small town has two school districts because the old families don't like the "newcomers" on the other side of town [Google books preview], where both sides have been in the state since before New Mexico was a state [1912] - local memories are long.)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:43 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Cognitive Frames. Your cognitive framing and theirs have no intersection.

Yeah. That's what I said, just in different words.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:43 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


pxe2000 -- not the 'mats but add Love is the Law onto the set list. The song was used with Chan Polling's blessing and encouragement as part of a campaign to legalize same-sex marriage in Minnesota. And I bet Chan would busk with you.
posted by nathan_teske at 2:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why? Partly because of abortion (through, as Official Evangelical Whisperer Fred Clark has pointed out, this wasn't always a line in the sand for evangelicals). Partly because of good solid Reagan-era propaganda, anti-communist rhetoric and anti-liberal sentiment. Partly because racism.

I also think there's a lot of classism in there, too. Or there was in the beginning. I remember (granted I was ~12) a lot of sentiment from conservatives of the time seemed to feel like Clinton was transgressing something by having the nerve to be a poor kid from rural Arkansas with a single* mom who went to Georgetown, became a Rhodes Scholar, graduated from Yale Law, and decided to go into politics. That simply was not done. Even among (southern) Democrats, elite educations and political careers were for rich people, ideally people from one of a few socially dominant families.

Similarly, there's a lot of sexism. Not only has Hillary always been tarred with it, but in my experience conservatives scorned Bill, as well, for marrying an educated career-woman and having an egalitarian marriage. This is something else that simply Was Not Done.

The fact that the Clintons have collectively given no fucks about the unspoken rules of class and gender, and have been rewarded for it every step of the way, is one of the main reasons certain people have a "bitch eating crackers" attitude about both of them. It's almost the opposite of the "temporarily impoverished millionaires" thing. Like all these folks in Pennsylvania and Ohio played by the rules their whole lives, and they got nothing. Now these upstarts just come along, do whatever, and get to BOTH be President?!

*Fun fact, it was in double checking some things on Wikipedia that I found out for literally the first time that Bill was conceived within marriage, that his biological father died, and that his mother remarried when Bill was four years old. Not gonna lie, the southern conservatives I grew up around somehow warped this into Bill being a bastard son of a whore.
posted by Sara C. at 2:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [69 favorites]


Meanwhile, @Farenthold:
I've now called 386 charities, looking for millions @realDonaldTrump says he gave away. Still a chance the Dwyer H.S. Band (#380) got it all
posted by Existential Dread at 2:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [61 favorites]


Sara C.: Not gonna lie, the southern conservatives I grew up around somehow warped this into Bill being a bastard son of a whore.

Well, Bill Clinton certainly fits the Alexander Hamilton mold in many ways.
(Nerdery derail: If I'm remembering the book correctly, according to Chernow, Hamilton's mother probably was not a whore, but was sued for divorce by her probably-abusive-or-at-the-very-least-shitty husband, and this was the motivation given. So Hamilton was also probably not a son of a whore... and maybe not even of a Scotsman. /derail)
posted by Superplin at 3:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


The moral is if you're a charity and Trump offers you a donation, go buy a lottery ticket instead. That way you at least have a chance of getting some money.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hamilton's mother probably was not a whore, but was sued for divorce by her probably-abusive-or-at-the-very-least-shitty husband, and this was the motivation given. So Hamilton was also probably not a son of a whore... and maybe not even of a Scotsman.

Certainly no true Scotsman.
posted by The Bellman at 3:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


So how are politically divided marriages handling things? The Irreverend Pat Robertson has a suggestion and The Nib's Kendra Wells runs with the idea. (An evangelist-authorized birth-control method?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:05 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, @Farenthold:
I've now called 386 charities, looking for millions @realDonaldTrump says he gave away. Still a chance the Dwyer H.S. Band (#380) got it all

Wow. His twitter is pretty cool. He's using to to find out info and crowdsource his investigating and at times tagging Trump as he's tweeting.

Fascinating.
posted by Jalliah at 3:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


oh it is indeed a masterful blend of investigative reporting and trolling
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


Not gonna lie, the southern conservatives I grew up around somehow warped this into Bill being a bastard son of a whore.
People have truly strange perceptions of Bill's childhood. I know several people who believe that Bill grew up in the lap of luxury, gold rattle and all. It's bizarre. His mother was a nurse and his stepfather was an abusive alcoholic who sold cars when he wasn't beating up on his family physically and emotionally.
posted by xyzzy at 3:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, earlier today Fahrenthold (sorry, I misspelled his last name above) was crowdsourcing the location of a specific painting that appeared to have been purchased by Trump using $1000 of Foundation money. It's awesome.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


when Trump says "I'll sue you.", it means that whoever he threatens to sue obviously did something illegal and reprehensible.

I see it more as the (only slightly more) grown-up version of "I'M GETTING MY DAD ON TO YOU!" And of course, Trump relied on his dad to fight his battles (and guarantee his loans and cover his debts) right until Fred's death, after which he got a chunk of the estate.
posted by holgate at 3:21 PM on October 5, 2016


And I think if we're ever going to progress as a country, we have to be able to at least understand each other's views /as the person holding them understands them/, even if we don't agree.
I'm reminded of the hand wringing which followed the riots in Tottenham a few years ago when a deluge of middle class pundits seemed shocked that rioters could destroy property "in their own community". The idea that the community had so little to offer the rioters that they weren't a part of it was incomprehensible to them.

Let them eat cake indeed.
posted by fullerine at 3:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


oh it is indeed a masterful blend of investigative reporting and trolling

Posting pics of his notes is a really nice touch. Love it.
posted by Jalliah at 3:24 PM on October 5, 2016


(An evangelist-authorized birth-control method?)

Actually, St. Paul specifically forbids intentional withholding of sex within marriage except for brief consensual periods for religious purposes:
"Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Who says American Evangelical Irreverends like Roberston give a flying fuck about what the Bible says? He's been a "moneychanger in the temple" for as long as Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:28 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Much longer-- Trump never pretended to be religious, to my knowledge, until he started running for President.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


just awkward wording; Trump's a moneychanger in the Temple of Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:36 PM on October 5, 2016


Much longer-- Trump never pretended to be religious, to my knowledge, until he started running for President.

Depends on what you mean. He attended Norman Vincent Peale’s church as a child, and Peale was the pastor at his wedding. (To Maples, I think, though I’m not certain.)
posted by Going To Maine at 3:37 PM on October 5, 2016


You guys... that article about Robertson telling husbands to withhold sex is satire. C'mon.
posted by whitecedar at 3:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


What? You mean the cartoon site The Nib had something untrue in it? I am horrified!!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:40 PM on October 5, 2016


It looks like Hurricane Matthew will be pummeling the East coast of Florida sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening. I wonder how any emergencies and/or damage around West Palm Beach/MaraStupido will affect Trump in the next few days...
posted by localhuman at 3:46 PM on October 5, 2016


I mean yeah, the article shown in the first frame has been making the rounds lately and I've seen a few people fall for it. I was referring to the article itself, not the cartoon. I guess I misread you? Carry on!
posted by whitecedar at 3:48 PM on October 5, 2016


You guys... that article about Robertson telling husbands to withhold sex is satire. C’mon.

Snopes

Ooooh, INTERNET!!! You got me again. Truly, we are all fools.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:49 PM on October 5, 2016


" I’m Latino. I’m Hispanic. And they’re different, so I drew a comic to explain."

Huh, I have never met a Brazilian who called themselves Latino.

I use Latino and Hispanic interchangeably because I learned them wrong I guess. I never actually considered myself labeled until I moved here, and it was pretty weird and a little isolating to be categorized everywhere from paperwork to social situations.

Like if I'm honest I don't really think of myself as a Hispanic person or whatever, I just see myself as a person. Not that I don't value my heritage, it just doesn't define me the way my gender does, for example. My heritage is like patriotism to me. I'm a little indifferent but the world around me seems to think it's super important.
posted by Tarumba at 3:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Huh, I have never met a Brazilian who called themselves Latino.

Quarter Brazilian, but half Latin American at any rate, so I say Latino because it's just easier.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 3:54 PM on October 5, 2016


Temple of Trump

Worst Sisters of Mercy remix ever.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


@JoshDorner: Latino vote share:

Bush '00: 35%

Bush '04: 40%

McCain: 31%

Romney: 27%

Trump (today): 10.6%

http://latinousa.org/2016/10/05/national-post-debate-tracking-poll-latino-voters-clinton-83-support/
posted by chris24 at 3:56 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


Worst Sisters of Mercy remix ever.

As a liberal goth old person, I declare this election thread over. See everyone on Sunday for the town hall thing!
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Temple of Trump

Worst Sisters of Mercy remix ever.

... I actually think I could make that work.

In the temple of Trump: Lies and blunders

... no, I can't get the next line. Drat. I still think this has possibilities.
posted by Archelaus at 3:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


@JoshDorner: Latino vote share:

Bush '00: 35%

Bush '04: 40%

McCain: 31%

Romney: 27%

Trump (today): 10.6%
It's gonna be a dark day for the Democrats if the Republicans manage to run someone who isn't all about race baiting Latinx, which I think you can see, was not so long ago.
posted by indubitable at 4:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's gonna be a dark day for the Democrats if the Republicans manage to run someone who isn't all about race baiting Latinx, which I think you can see, was not so long ago.

You're right, I seem to recall a primary candidate or three from this year, including one with a peculiar punctuation mark in his name...
posted by Existential Dread at 4:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I grew up saying Hispanic, and it is kind of old-fashioned at this point. As I've tried to adjust--Latinx is fine in print but a lot harder to use when you're actually talking to people, especially people who don't know/care about gender stuff, and I have a gender dislike of using gendered language when talking about people, myself included, and I really don't like that Latino (with the o) is the version that seems to be taking hold. The arguments against using Hispanic never quite make sense to me, since a lot of them also apply to the "Latin" root, as far as colonialism and stuff goes. This election has me more inclined to refer to myself as Mexican or Mexican-American, just because of everything that's been going on, which is an easy out that doesn't work quite we well for people from other places. But this often reminds me of the "queer" thing--there was a rash of people declaring "queer" to be a slur and unacceptable when it's the #1 word I use for my identity.

Labels are complicated.
posted by Sequence at 4:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


I hate living in the suburbs.

SUBURB REPORT!

From sunny -- today anyway -- and exciting Cheektowaga, NY, home of the unassuming but pretty okay Wehrle Family Restaurant, motto: So Fucking Classy We're Practically In Amherst. Two at-least-thirtysomething white dudes were eating lunch, and one dude was laying into the other about what a bag of dicks Trump is. "Emails! Nobody gave a shit about the 22 million emails Bush lost! And do you know who suggested this whole server thing?..." Then they started talking about some kind of computer thing so I guess they're in tech. I mean, not like NY isn't as safe as a safe thing, but it's still good to see the occasional example of white trash like me doing the Lord's work.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


It's gonna be a dark day for the Democrats if the Republicans manage to run someone who isn't all about race baiting Latinx

Luckily for Democrats there's a firewall in place that prevents this from ever happening called the Republican Presidential Primaries.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [39 favorites]


It's gonna be a dark day for the Democrats if the Republicans manage to run someone who isn't all about race baiting Latinx, which I think you can see, was not so long ago.

You think Latinx is just going to forget what's going on now and who's endorsing it?
posted by zutalors! at 4:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't give up on Ohio.

@ThePlumLineGS: New Monmouth poll of likely voters in Ohio:

Clinton 44
Trump 42
Johnson 5

For the record this is the first poll Clinton has lead in Ohio since the start of September. Very good news (even if down 2 from the last Monmouth poll back when Trump was imploding over the Khans.
posted by Francis at 4:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm guessing it wasn't one of y'all, but I got a call from a Clinton volunteer today.

It was kind of a relief; it had been worrying me that I hadn't gotten one yet. (Am I not on the list? But how? I'm registered, I gave money, I vote reliably, I'm in a swing state, what more could they need?)

Planning to early vote tomorrow. Not because of the call; I was going to anyway. But still.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


It’s gonna be a dark day for the Democrats if the Republicans manage to run someone who isn't all about race baiting Latinx, which I think you can see, was not so long ago.

You’re right, I seem to recall a primary candidate or three from this year, including one with a peculiar punctuation mark in his name…

El Zodíaco!

You think Latinx is just going to forget what's going on now and who's endorsing it?

Four years is a long time; eight years is longer still.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


um, sorry, they are not going to forget in four or eight years.
posted by zutalors! at 4:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can't say what Hillary did or didn't do regarding the handling of Bill's affairs once they became too blatant to ignore, and I certainly can't say anything about what she should have done given I know neither what she knew nor the state of their marriage or their intentions. I can say however that casting the whole business as being just too far back to be held to anything like the same sort of standards as today simply doesn't work for me at all.

The Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky relationship and all those other alleged affairs and assaults were brought into public awareness post-Anita Hill. There isn't any reasonable claim that those defending Bill didn't know enough about sexual harassment or abuse to act in ways we would expect or hope for today. A huge amount of political capital was expended on the Clarence Thomas hearings standing up for Anita Hill's right to be heard and believed. Much of this capital was then pissed away defending Bill in sometimes really ugly ways, using the class of the women accusing him and political expediency to make untenable claims of difference between believing Hill and believing Bill's accusers. This was even done by some of the same feminist voices that were attacking Thomas.

The Clinton impeachment hearings didn't arise out of nothing, they can be understood in part as pay back for the Thomas embarrassment. The gross hypocrisy on the right took great pains in drawing out the hypocrisy of the left when faced with their own sex scandal. I can't say for sure what the cost of this might have been, but my own belief is that there was some considerable loss of momentum for feminism in the defense of his actions, giving back much of the gains from the Thomas hearings.

Again, I can't say what Hillary's role was in any of this or what knowledge she had of Bill's history of "relationships", but the whole thing was a disgrace, even if the specific charges shouldn't have led to impeachment. Downplaying it or, even worse, trying to undercut the claims of Bills' accusers strikes me as tribalism and not a great look. The Republicans were undeniably hypocrites in the impeachment process, but that's no excuse for holding Democrats to weaker standards than one would if a Republican were accused of the same things.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


You think Latinx is just going to forget what's going on now and who's endorsing it?

I think that a lot of people who identify this way are also conservatives, and the only thing keeping them from voting for a Republican is the very explicit racism expressed by specific candidates. I think if Rubio or Jeb! had won their primary, we'd be seeing a lot more Latinx support for them. And I don't think that the Republican party primary process is set in stone; they can probably change the rules to tone down the influence of the white nationalists if they put some effort into it.
posted by indubitable at 4:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


It was kind of a relief; it had been worrying me that I hadn't gotten one yet. (Am I not on the list? But how? I'm registered, I gave money, I vote reliably, I'm in a swing state, what more could they need?)
It probably means that you're considered a low-priority contact because they think you're likely to vote no matter what. They prioritize people whose voting histories and demographics suggest that they're likely to need a nudge. If you vote reliably, that means that they've probably contacted all of the high-priority people and now they're calling up the folks who they're not so worried about.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh god I just realized that Trump is using "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in a weird creepy rapey way - you don't want me, but you need me, and you're gonna get me good and hard.
posted by stolyarova at 4:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Luckily for Democrats there's a firewall in place that prevents this from ever happening called the Republican Presidential Primaries.

Not necessarily. Look at the way the southern strategy transformed the Republicans, and the Democrats. Change happens. Everybody thought the Republicans had learned their lesson last election; at some point they'll be forced to confront the fact that they're pandering to a shrinking and aging electorate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think if Rubio or Jeb! had won their primary, we'd be seeing a lot more Latinx support for them

I agree with this, but that hardly spells "Dark Day for Democrats." Also there are generational changes in the country at large and in the Latinx community as well, younger people are moving away from Republicans.
posted by zutalors! at 4:26 PM on October 5, 2016


Temple of Trump

Worst Sisters of Mercy remix ever.

In the temple of Trump: Lies and blunders
In the temple of Trump: Cry like rain (this line also confounds me)
In the temple of Trump: read my twitter
In the temple of Trump: Fear my name
posted by cirhosis at 4:29 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


The difference I'm referring to isn't the existence of sexual harassment as a thing. Hillary Clinton didn't sexually harass any of those women. What she potentially did was to encourage or support discrediting their claims.

In 2016, it's taken as axiomatic that if you're a feminist, you Trust Women. That women don't lie about sexual assault, and that unless there are glaring facts to the contrary, we should start by believing a woman who says she was harassed or assaulted. This was not as widely agreed upon in the early 1990s. It was not politically anathema at that time to cast doubt upon the stories of women who came forward with these claims.

Do I, as a survivor of rape in 2016, think it wasn't great for Hillary to encourage Clinton staffers to discredit these women? Yes. Was it expected circa 1996, even within feminist circles, that Hillary would have sided with them against her husband? No.
posted by Sara C. at 4:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


um, sorry, they are not going to forget in four or eight years.

In absence of anything else, no, sure. But the country as a whole is going to be in a different place in four or eight years, and those concerns will change things as well. A Ted Cruz, a Marco Rubio, a Susanna Martinez,or goodness knows who else could change up the game significantly. There’s a reason that Democrats are trying to track the Trump stain: because people forget, and keeping them from forgetting takes work.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not necessarily. Look at the way the southern strategy transformed the Republicans, and the Democrats. Change happens. Everybody thought the Republicans had learned their lesson last election; at some point they'll be forced to confront the fact that they're pandering to a shrinking and aging electorate.

Right - the narrative that “the Republicans are OVER” isn’t compatible with the narrative that the Republicans never win anything again. It just means that interests will have to realign. Hopefully, that realignment will yield another major party with policies that tilt to the left.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right - the narrative that “the Republicans are OVER” isn’t compatible with the narrative that the Republicans never win anything again.

Er, that is, “the Republicans are OVER” isn’t compatible with the notion that demographic groups have fled the party forever. When you lose your coalition, you reform, and then you aren’t over and those groups aren’t in flight.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:35 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump’s Doing Worse Than Romney Did Among White Voters:
Trump has a smaller lead among white voters than Mitt Romney did in 2012, and Trump’s margin seems to be falling from where it was when the general election began.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:35 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Before we start predicting what the 2020 campaign will look like can we consider that maybe the accomplishments of the Clinton administration would be a factor?
posted by DanSachs at 4:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Congressional race volunteering. The race is super close and they're starting to bring in the big guns. AUTO-DIALERS! I'm on one right now, it's incredible- you call one number and the system does all the dialing; the corresponding web profile keeps up with the contact name and script. We are truly living in a marvelous age, could things possibly get any better? Only downside of reaching more people is, heh, reaching more people- one lady just picked up the phone and yelled, GO! AWAY!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:40 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


IF the Republicans had chosen to listen to the sane voices in their party, they could have saved it. At this point, I'm not sure. There are a lot of plans to replace RNC members, but it isn't probably too late.
posted by corb at 4:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know the moment has long passed but I did want to point out that Helen Gurley Brown was using the term "nothingburger" back in the 60's. She described herself as a nothingburger who made something of herself and you can too! if you read Cosmo, diet, wear sexy clothes, and do something with your hair.

Michelle Obama sets her garden in stone
First lady Michelle Obama is making sure that whoever inhabits the White House next doesn’t rip out her iconic vegetable garden — at least not without a big fuss.

Obama Wednesday afternoon unveiled a much bigger version of the garden that uses cement, stone and steel to make it a more permanent fixture on the South Lawn. The updates are seen not just as preserving Obama’s garden — recognized globally as a symbol of local food — but also as a way to dissuade, say, a President Donald Trump from scrapping it the way Ronald Reagan tore out Jimmy Carter's solar panels after he moved into the White House.
Reminds me of the story of Reagan ripping out the solar panels installed by Jimmy Carter in the White House. Sometimes the Right is almost comically evil-- it is so easy to imagine a Republican President making a BFD out of vegetables being grown in the White House Garden-- as though vegetables were liberal nonsense-- and order them to be ripped out ASAP.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [40 favorites]


It IS too late. My iPhone is more optimistic than I am.
posted by corb at 4:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Regarding tribalism:

My long time working theory of this election, and the psychology of Trump supporters, is that fundamentally, beneath the racism, misogyny and xenophobia, tribalism is a core principal. And maybe thats just obvious. But to expand on it a bit, is there some base mentality of human nature that is drawn to or somehow comforted by a state of conflict with well defined sides and boundaries, an existence where arbitrary markers stake out polar opposites to create an artificial field of morality?

A world where good and evil are easily delineated by religion, racy, geography etc. is comforting when compared to a reality that is complex, nuanced and arbitrary. It also enables a release of potential energy in a dynamic form which can be comforting- building walls, rounding up undesirables, destroying enemies: Simple, tangible and quantifiable.

Juxtapose this with the alternative: Living in a state of complex and fragile interconnections, static energy, yet buzzing with the tensions of disparate and contradictory beliefs and purpose. And then trying to comprehend a universe empty of any kind of moral or even rational guidance. Is it not stupidity, but the desire to avoid this existential anxiety that coalesces people around a false leader?
posted by angrybear at 4:45 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


@MYNDSTATE: Mexican-American and Latinos will definitely be whipping out that thing November 8th
posted by kirkaracha at 4:45 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, I agree Sara and my complaint is that some of the people who were espousing the same point of view about trusting women had to walk it back due to support for Bill. At the time this was apparent and it was damaging. I'm just suggesting we shouldn't pretend many of these people didn't know what they were doing, they made a choice to support Bill with some real expense. Again though, I don't know how much Hillary may or may not have been involved or what she knew, I'm just concerned about the representation of the history and people in that time and how that might still reverberate today.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:47 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Slate found Donald Trump Was in Some More Porns

Ho hum. Presidential candidate in Playboy videos? I'm so over it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


For this report on the Forbes 400 Rich People, the lede isn't Trump's drop... "Koch brothers move down in Forbes 400. Guess who outranks them now?" McClatchy: Good Journalism isn't bead (AND they own my local kinda-small-market paper)
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump Is Tearing The NFL Apart
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


There’s a reason that Democrats are trying to track the Trump stain: because people forget, and keeping them from forgetting takes work.

Remember, kids, when you trump with someone, you're also trumping with everyone they've trumped with. Practice safe politics and don't get trumped.

A message from the Partnership for a Trump-free America.
posted by Herodios at 4:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


This year, the College Republicans chose to promote Trump's candidacy, including the phrase "Build The Wall". The mural was vandalized later (graffiti), and sparked discussion and protest. University President Eric Kaler addressed the issue in a campus wide email:

I saw this on Facebook and was filled with rage. Every year some conservative student group paints something vaguely enraging, but ultimately fairly harmless, on that bridge. I'd rather be able to cross campus without seeing your opinions on abortion, thank you. Intentionally intimidating your fellow students should be over the line. But nope. That's a-okay. Never mind that the university can (and does) restrict speech on campus. I'm sure the "campus climate" office (which seems to exist to paper over the university's racism problem*) is very concerned. Not.

*It popped into existence after some students occupied Kaler's office trying to make the university deal with its racism problem. Don't worry, the university threatened to expel them.
posted by hoyland at 4:55 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


@RosieGray: Pence is meeting with Amish leaders right now in Lancaster, PA

NYTimes: Donald Trump Is Seen as Helping Push Asian-Americans Into Democratic Arms

No connection between the two stories, I just found it a bit humorous. Everybody Votes!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on October 5, 2016


Trump messes up Nevada pronunciation in anecdote about Nevada pronunciation. (link to tweet w video)
posted by melissasaurus at 4:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


From that Donald Trump Is Tearing The NFL Apart article:
Four weeks into the NFL season and four weeks from Election Day, amid an increasingly politicized league confronting on-field protests every Sunday, a straw poll of 43 players by B/R Mag shows:
  • 20 of 22 black NFL players plan to vote for Hillary Clinton.
  • 2 of 22 black NFL players plan to vote for Donald J. Trump.
  • 21 of 21 white NFL players plan to vote for Trump.
Astonishing, yet oddly unsurprising.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump has apparently not been keeping up with Veep.
posted by zachlipton at 4:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


If we make it through this, we need to have a major national conversation about how the first sentence of the first paragraph on the first page of the textbook for How to Prevent Your Country From Becoming Ruled by Fascists 101 is "Don't fucking elect or even entertain the election of people who openly declare that they're going to carry out fascist projects."

The way some people are reacting when I point out to them what Trump has actually said he would do, they seriously seem to think that we can hand over control of the government to anyone and the Constitution or the American Way or whatever are some kind of magic talismans that would prevent anything bad from happening. Like, I'm seriously wondering if they think that Hitler himself could be elected and it wouldn't pose any substantial danger.

We really have to make sure this year is remembered as the time we nearly (crossing fingers) elected a fascist leader.
posted by XMLicious at 4:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [37 favorites]


Everybody Votes!
Actually, I don't think most Amish people do vote.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


If he wants a rapey Rolling Stones song, there are way better choices.

"Under My Tiny Thumb"
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Tearing The NFL Apart

Why not? He already wrecked the USFL.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Has he said "color-oddo" yet?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Tearing The NFL Apart
“That’s an issue with this country,” said the lineman, who said he planned to vote for Trump. “We can’t have conversations anymore. We are too sensitive. It’s OK to disagree about things.”
Yeah! Fuck that bullshit about systemic bias! The system is totally colorblind! I never get abused by the police as a white guy! That black dude it totally being too sensitive. It's OK to disagree about whether it's ok for police to keep slaughtering black people for the slightest of, and sometimes pretend, provocation!
posted by Talez at 5:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


Amish communities typically don't vote, and it says something that the last pocket of people in this country who might be able to be convinced to vote for Donald Trump are people who have not seen or heard him speak.
posted by you're a kitty! at 5:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've found when Trump supporters say it needs to be OK to disagree about things they mean it needs to be OK to disagree about whether black people are equal to white people and whether Mexicans are rapists and criminals or not.
posted by Justinian at 5:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [51 favorites]


Juxtapose this with the alternative: Living in a state of complex and fragile interconnections, static energy, yet buzzing with the tensions of disparate and contradictory beliefs and purpose. And then trying to comprehend a universe empty of any kind of moral or even rational guidance. Is it not stupidity, but the desire to avoid this existential anxiety that coalesces people around a false leader?

I've had similar thoughts this race and I think it's a big part of why Trump is doing so well. He gives answers. Says he'll take care of problems. He's reducing generalized anxiety down to a simple explanation for people to swallow. Even if it's all a bunch of lies.

Like with the fire marshal thing. There was no reason to start a fight with a fire marshal (or four). But he did it and the crowd ate it up. It was a clear direction for them to focus their anxiety towards and it didn't matter whether the target deserved it or actually did anything whatsoever. The crowd got to release the "I don't know what's going on and I'm uncomfortable" valve anyway and love the guy who allowed it to happen.
posted by downtohisturtles at 5:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I've found when Trump supporters say it needs to be OK to disagree about things they mean it needs to be OK to disagree about whether black people are equal to white people and whether Mexicans are rapists and criminals or not.
On the other hand, when you disagree on the question of whether their candidate is a bigot, they get really upset. So oversensitive!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


Amish communities typically don't vote, and it says something that the last pocket of people in this country who might be able to be convinced to vote for Donald Trump are people who have not seen or heard him speak.

My NE Ohio-based family report attempts to woo the Amish in the surrounding area via ads that emphasize, among other things, the fact that Trump does not drink and has a family-run business. One assumes any mobilize-the-Amish strategy relies on them not hearing anything else at all about Trump's personal life and business choices...
posted by ubersturm at 5:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


that the last pocket of people in this country who could be convinced to vote for Donald Trump are people who have not seen or heard him speak.

He went to them: that weird off-script, off-the-rails rally on Saturday? In Lancaster County, PA. Pence has been there as well.
posted by holgate at 5:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Obama Wednesday afternoon unveiled a much bigger version of the garden that uses cement, stone and steel to make it a more permanent fixture on the South Lawn. The updates are seen not just as preserving Obama’s garden — recognized globally as a symbol of local food — but also as a way to dissuade, say, a President Donald Trump from scrapping it the way Ronald Reagan tore out Jimmy Carter's solar panels after he moved into the White House.



Reminds me of the story of Reagan ripping out the solar panels installed by Jimmy Carter in the White House. Sometimes the Right is almost comically evil-- it is so easy to imagine a Republican President making a BFD out of vegetables being grown in the White House Garden-- as though vegetables were liberal nonsense-- and order them to be ripped out ASAP.

It's reminiscent of that time the Gipper tore down those solar panels that Carter had installed.
posted by ian1977 at 5:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nothing grows naturally in any of the buildings with "TRUMP" on them.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:28 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


XMLicious, it makes me feel like a crazy person when I hear people brush off my concerns about a Trump presidency with that kind of talk about how I shouldn't worry because:

a) "Trump doesn't really mean any of the crazy fascist things he says. He'd never actually do any of it." Uh, okay! He's just engaging in a bit of light, hypothetical fascism then! That's fine!
b) "They won't let anything too crazy/horrible happen." Who "they" is is never specified.
c) "That kind of thing [internment camps, forced mass deportation, a wave of hate crimes, taking away reproductive rights, etc.] could never happen in the US." Uh, it already did. Like, multiple times.
d) "You wouldn't be at risk." O RLY. I almost believed this one, because I do indeed benefit from a lot of privilege for assorted reasons, until I had the sickening realization that I would not pass a purity test. In a hypothetical Trumpian dystopia of Muslims registering in databases and shit, if the equivalent of the gestapo came to my door and started asking questions and digging into my life history, I would not pass the test. I still speak Persian at home, I majored in Near Eastern Studies, I took classes on Islam and have books on Islam in my possession, I have family still in Iran and Afghanistan....yeah, I'm not gonna pass the "you're American enough" test.

I paid attention in history, okay. The past is part of how we predict the future. I love my country, I do, but there's little in its history to suggest that we're uniquely immune to this sort of violence and this sort of fascism. We're so stuck on American exceptionalism though that it's impossible to have this kind of conversation without it devolving into accusations of hating America or being anti-American. The default response from a huge segment of the population to reasoned and loving critiques of the country is "well if you don't like it you can leave!!!!!"
posted by yasaman at 5:29 PM on October 5, 2016 [90 favorites]


Re the vegetable garden: as a vegetarian I have had multiple dbag menfolk express to me that vegetables are indeed a liberal, feminine, wussified foodstuff that no self - respecting, red- blooded real American man would ever allow to pass his lips (potatoes and corn on the cob excepted).

I once knew a grown ass adult man who would actually throw a tantrum if meat was not a part of every meal he ate. Cheese pizza? What are you, a commie?! Spaghetti? There had better be some meatballs with that! And in similar toddleresque fashion, he refused to eat green vegetables. Ever. He once told me that tofu is literally dog shit, though i don't know how he'd actually know, it's not like he'd ever eat it. (How happy was i when my friend divorced his ass? Really really happy. )
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [51 favorites]


Yeah, Bush tried to get the Amish and Mennonite vote. They typically vote locally and something like 13% of those registered vote.
I found this cute:
"...gentleman of Easton, Northampton County, tells me of a German farmer, who lived near that town, who said he did not see any need of so many parties, -- the Democrats and Lutherans were enough."
posted by clavdivs at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind national poll

Well don't the Pence / Clinton And Trump / Kaine numbers calibrate the misogyny gap nicely.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I love my country, I do, but there's little in its history to suggest that we're uniquely immune to this sort of violence and this sort of fascism.

Amen. For anyone who's familiar with the things depicted in 12 Years a Slave, it's plain that for a large chunk of the population back then, living in the United States was like living in North Korea today. Completely coexistent with the Constitution and whatever else supposedly would protect us even were we to elect someone like Trump.

And the chattel slavery of black Americans is only the most salient of endless indications of how ripe a place we could be for the spread of fascism, but it's all invisible thanks to historical revisionism. It's more insidious than the people edited out of historical pictures in the Soviet Union, to instead shape society so that the ones looking at unretouched pictures simply don't see them.
posted by XMLicious at 5:51 PM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


And the chattel slavery of black Americans is only the most salient of endless indications of how ripe a place we could be for the spread of fascism, but it's all invisible thanks to historical revisionism. It's more insidious than the people edited out of historical pictures in the Soviet Union, to instead shape society so that the ones looking at unretouched pictures simply don't see them.

There’s a tension between the sort-of-conflicting ideas that “Slaves became Americans” and “Americans were enslaved”. It’s not something I’m qualified to elaborate on -and no doubt many, many others have- but I think it explains a great deal of the present moment.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Not necessarily. Look at the way the southern strategy transformed the Republicans, and the Democrats. Change happens. Everybody thought the Republicans had learned their lesson last election; at some point they'll be forced to confront the fact that they're pandering to a shrinking and aging electorate.

I thought party elite have confronted this fact but the tea party/southern strategy (racists) will knife any candidate that fails their purity tests?
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


they're pandering to a shrinking and aging electorate
...who have given them majorities in both house of Congress and control of 3/4th of the state houses, as well as the tools to keep them for a decade or two longer than natural forces would allow. That's why the Downballot this year and the recruiting of good candidates for future years are so important.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


I thought party elite have confronted this fact but the tea party/southern strategy (racists) will knife any candidate that fails their purity tests?

Conflating the Southern Strategy and the Tea Party is telling. After all, by this point in time Republicans elected by dint of the Southern Strategy would at least be party elites, ostensibly the very people the Tea Party is outing. (Remember that Eric Cantor -a very hard line conservative- got primaried.) These lines get complicated in the weeds.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN's KFile, the new home of Buzzfeed Andrew, has found two more Playboy videos with Trump in them. Including one where he interviews Playmates and takes Polaroids of them.

Huh. This explains why ebay bidding went so high for the mint VHS I was selling of I am Curious (Orange).
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


I thought party elite have confronted this fact but the tea party/southern strategy (racists) will knife any candidate that fails their purity tests?

It's also that the Republicans aren't collapsing nearly as badly as people make it out to be. Republicans still control both houses and the governorship of 30 states. They still control both houses of Congress, there's an even chance they'll keep control of the Senate, while the House is theirs until 2020 and probably beyond unless a miracle happens in 2020.

The Republicans are ageing out but the death rate plummeting is keeping them around much longer than you'd historically see them holding on for.
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Playing with the possible paths on The Upshot, Clinton wins with the states that The Upshot gives her an 80%+ chance of winning (Colorado, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Wisconsin). She could win without Florida, Iowa, Nevada, North Carolina, and Ohio; I think she'll take Florida, Nevada, and North Carolina.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Republican Party has woven Southern Strategy through everything - I see no evidence that the elites are somehow separated from that tactic, given that they owe all their success to it.
posted by zutalors! at 6:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


What it essentially comes down to, like every election, is that Republicans show up for every candidate for every election. Mass is what, the fifth bluest state in the union, and the governor is Republican because the gubernatorial elections are during mid terms and the Democrats don't show up like in a presidential year.

They don't have to have support. They just have to ensure that Democrats stay unenthused, disillusioned, cynical, dejected, and uninvolved.
posted by Talez at 6:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


or disenfranchised...
posted by zutalors! at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


XMLicious, it makes me feel like a crazy person when I hear people brush off my concerns about a Trump presidency with that kind of talk about how I shouldn't worry because:

a) "Trump doesn't really mean any of the crazy fascist things he says. He'd never actually do any of it." Uh, okay! He's just engaging in a bit of light, hypothetical fascism then! That's fine!

Heh, I remember this rationale from back when Bob McDonnell was running for governor here in Virginia. One of my co-workers was trying to convince another to vote for him (both women) and she (the convince-ee) asked, "But what about his masters thesis where he wrote about how a woman's place is in the home, taking care of children?" "Oh, he didn't mean it!"

(McDonnell got his M.A./J.D. from Christian Broadcasting Network University, now known as Regent, and was predictably terrible on a wide range of women's issues.)
posted by indubitable at 6:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


NYTimes Gary Johnson Equates Syria Deaths Caused by Assad and West
In the Times interview on Wednesday, Mr. Johnson conspicuously sought to avoid another misstep. Asked if he knew the name of North Korea’s leader, Mr. Johnson replied, “I do.”

“You want me to name” the person, he said, then paused, before adding dryly, “Really.” But he declined to supply the name.

Mr. Johnson complained that Mrs. Clinton was being judged on her base of knowledge rather than her interventionist instincts.
I'm speechless.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [34 favorites]


or disenfranchised

Democrats don't get disenfranchised every off year.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:43 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]



or disenfranchised

Democrats don't get disenfranchised every off year.

what?
posted by zutalors! at 6:44 PM on October 5, 2016


...Democrats stay unenthused, disillusioned, cynical, dejected, and uninvolved.

So what you're saying is as long as Democrats remain Democrats?
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:45 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Listen, I could list current leaders of North Korea until the cows come home, but it won't change all of the foreign entanglements, which are again too numerous to mention or even give a single example of, that our country, which I also know the name of, is involved in. My opponents, who have real names which I know but do not feel like mentioning, will only give us more of the status quo, which it goes without saying I am knowledgeable about and opposed to." [fake]
posted by ckape at 6:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


From the Johnson article:
“This is what happens in this country right now — unless you’re willing to say that you’re going to get tough on this stuff, on these atrocities — and these atrocities are horrible — but unless you as a politician are willing to do something about these atrocities then we’re not going to elect you,” Mr. Johnson said.
I'm no fan of American interventionism either, but he seems downright upset that people might expect the President to care about atrocities elsewhere in the world. It's just as well that Johnson doesn't admire any foreign leaders or know where world cities are, since it's hard to imagine what would cause him to care about what happens there.
posted by zachlipton at 6:51 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


As a proud Masshole, I was under the impression my blue and widely regulated state has had more Republican governors than Democrats in my lifetime because we like strong small state government and that's a pretty big thing that Republicans do fairly well? I consider myself Democrat, yet I've voted for a few of those Republican governors myself, and not been too disappointed either. But that's just me...
posted by danapiper at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Republicans are also helped by the fact that maintaining the status quo is more or less their intent.

Thus they can pretty much get by with not governing because a failure to pass legislation generally maintains the status quo.

This is also why the filibuster works better for the Republicans. Democrats are generally trying to advance some sort of policy goals and that requires 51% of the house and often 60% of the Senators.

In contrast Republicans can defend the status quo with only 40 Senators.

That tends to result in long periods of relatively stasis interspersed with brief periods in which Democrats achieve super majorities or arm wrestle moderate Republicans into submission. And now Republicans seem content with passing easily vetoed bills and naming post offices.
posted by vuron at 6:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm no fan of American interventionism either, but he seems downright upset that people might expect the President to care about atrocities elsewhere in the world.

I think a more coherent objection might be that the US is very selective about which atrocities it chooses to care about.
posted by indubitable at 7:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dana: When my mom voted for Weld in 1990, she felt conflicted because this was the first time she voted for a Republican. That year the Democratic nominee was John Silber, who was a colorful character. Your hypothesis seems correct for the other years, but I think the Ds ran a spectacularly awful candidate in 1990.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


In case it hasn't been linked yet, The Atlantic Monthly's endorsement of Hillary:
Against Donald Trump
For the third time since The Atlantic’s founding, the editors endorse a candidate for president. The case for Hillary Clinton.
posted by hilaryjade at 7:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah. Search fail. I see it has been linked. Carry on.
posted by hilaryjade at 7:03 PM on October 5, 2016


For instance, lots of outrage over the Syrian goverment bombing rebel forces, no mention how many of the Sunni groups literally want to exterminate Syria's Alawite minority.
posted by indubitable at 7:04 PM on October 5, 2016


Trump in Nevada:
“But if you don’t say it correctly — it happened to a friend of mine, he was killed,” Trump said before returning to the teleprompter. “Drug overdoses, in Nev-AAH-da, are up 22 percent.”
Is he saying his friend was killed for mispronouncing "Nevada"? Because at this point I'll believe anything.
posted by mmoncur at 7:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


The New York Times is reporting that internal polling numbers for the campaigns show an even sharper dropoff in Trump's numbers than public polling is showing.

Mr. Trump has already slipped perceptibly in public polls, trailing widely this week in Pennsylvania and by smaller margins in Florida and North Carolina — three states he cannot afford to lose. But private polling by both parties shows an even more precipitous drop, especially among independent voters, moderate Republicans and women, according to a dozen strategists from both parties who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the data was confidential.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gerrymandering and vote packing have made democratic turnout less of a factor in off year elections. The state legislature packed me and my fellow democrats into a D+16 House District. Our D Rep is going to win, even with a modest turnout. Meanwhile the Republican rep in the R+6 district next door just has to match the turnout operation of the challenger -- easy for an incumbent.
posted by humanfont at 7:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Using someone's death and mispronunciation as a way to stay in the news cycle?

Stop covering this jackass, journos.
posted by Yowser at 7:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Welp, my JCPL is through the roof. Ok, not really. But I just finished phone banking into Oregon, and the only person who answered was a Trump supporter. =( Come on Eugene, get it together!!! (I know Oregon isn't actually at risk, I just get sad when people who are on Democratic call sheets are voting for Trump and I didn't have any "yay Hillary!" calls to balance it out today.)
posted by melissasaurus at 7:19 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'm not convinced by the Politico article. In the video, it sure sounded like the audience was trying to correct him when he kept pronouncing Nevada wrong.
posted by zachlipton at 7:19 PM on October 5, 2016


Megyn Kelly has more shade, for everyone, for doing canned safe interviews, but especially for Hannity: "Donald Trump, with all due respect to my friend at 10:00, will go on Hannity and pretty much only Hannity and will not venture out to the unsafe spaces these days, which doesn’t exactly expand the tent."

She also rips Clinton, rightly IMHO, for knowing all the questions in advance for her Steve Harvey appearance (during the primary, but the memo was leaked recently).
posted by zachlipton at 7:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


A talk show being SCRIPTED?

Bring me my fainting salts.
posted by Yowser at 7:27 PM on October 5, 2016 [29 favorites]


That's what those shows are. Disguised press releases/infomercials. I'm surprised the networks don't charge people to be on. It's been obvious since Larry King (and probably before, I'm just not old enough to know it)
posted by ctmf at 7:28 PM on October 5, 2016


In full fairness: "It's been 71 days since Trump held a presser. He took questions from a limited group 27 days ago. Clinton has taken Qs 9 times in 3 weeks." --@SopanDeb
posted by zachlipton at 7:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Also, when asked, she could use the devastating retort, "That makes me smart."

That's a joke. Don't do that
posted by ctmf at 7:34 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


she should go off the cuff and just wing it from now on. It worked so well for the republicans during the primaries.
posted by ian1977 at 7:34 PM on October 5, 2016


I don't know if this is true, apparently it's from a book written against Hillary Clinton, but the mental image of an 8 year old Hillary punching a boy petty enough to remember this decades later, and the fact that she did it to protect bunnies just makes me love her even more.

Twitter : the truth about Hillary
posted by Tarumba at 7:35 PM on October 5, 2016 [69 favorites]


lol that is giving me strength right now, Tarumba
posted by defenestration at 7:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, did Jim Yrigoyen give any more baby rabbits away to neighborhood boys? Because if not, it sounds like a good counter to Trump's repeated claims that Clinton will let evil foreign leaders walk all over her because she's not "strong" enough or whatever awful thing he's saying now.
posted by zachlipton at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sick burn! The "journalist" who's fellating one candidate accuses another journalist of supporting a candidate.
posted by ctmf at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Then this guy starts trying to say the Nazi's didn't intentionally gas 6 million Jews, another man agrees. I ask if they are together. "No"
posted by Artw at 7:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Absolutely disgusting.
posted by defenestration at 7:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


A bunch of literal baby rabbits, who are incredibly fragile and dependent on their mothers, and a bunch of neighborhood boys. Seriously, even in the most ridiculous narratives, we have Hillary Clinton trying to prevent actual animal cruelty, and a boy complains more than half a century later that behavior which endangered the lives of a bunch of literal baby bunnies... resulted in some momentary discomfort. What next, someone upset that she stopped them from drowning kittens?
posted by Sequence at 7:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [43 favorites]


scrapping it the way Ronald Reagan tore out Jimmy Carter's solar panels after he moved into the White House.

Oh yeah. G-ddamn that administration was terrible in every way. At least it got better with Bush I, beca- . . . Well, Bush II really . . . Y'know lets just talk about the modern national political landscape. I think with Trump it's very liiaahh f#%kit
posted by petebest at 7:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


the man of twists and turns Donald Trump Is Tearing The NFL Apart

Rush has been borderline apopleptic about the NFL, the past month or so. Started with Kaepernick, but has gone down the road of allowing uniform deviations for personal causes, etc. The first time I heard him go off about it (beyond Kaepernick, which was obvious), I was kinda lost. Now it's all come together.
posted by rp at 7:51 PM on October 5, 2016


private polling by both parties shows an even more precipitous drop, especially among independent voters, moderate Republicans and women

To fill in the blanks here, private polling differs from public polling because it usually starts with a very specific model of the electorate and much more knowledge about the people being polled (derived from registration data and canvassing) and makes different assumptions about what makes a likely voter. So they'll be sampling specific subgroups over time ("women in their thirties registered as independent who live in suburban Pennsylvania") and looking for trends as well as reactions to specific events and issues. This isn't the same as push polling ("if you knew candidate X did Y, would you be more or less likely to support them?") -- it's a way of gauging whether the campaign's messaging is getting through.
posted by holgate at 7:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


@kylegriffin1:Lee Daniels direct new Clinton ad, "What Will You Say", featuring African American stars talking about what's at stake in this election:
posted by chris24 at 7:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Can Women Be Trusted on Abortion? Two Men Weigh In [NYT Opinion; good]
posted by melissasaurus at 7:58 PM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


That article discusses how Pence shut down clinics as a major HIV outbreak was underway, but it's also worth revisiting how he spent quite a long time refusing to consider a needle exchange program to combat the epidemic despite advice from a wide range of public health experts. Months later, he agreed to a limited program after praying about it, but hampered its effectiveness by adding limitations and refusing to supply any funding (previously on MetaFilter).
posted by zachlipton at 8:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


And I don't think that the Republican party primary process is set in stone; they can probably change the rules to tone down the influence of the white nationalists if they put some effort into it.

Yeah, but they'd have to want to, and, well.
posted by dersins at 8:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


From the "Trump is tearing the NFL apart" piece:
They had known each other for four years. Their wives talked on occasion. Their kids sometimes played together. They sat next to each other in team meetings and went to dinner several times per month. They often joked that politics were off-limits because of their disparate viewpoints. Then, after their first offseason team workout in May, the lineman revealed he would be voting for Trump—and everything changed.

The linebacker, a Clinton supporter, began finding excuses for not going to dinner. The families stopped talking. When the lineman confronted his now former friend, he recalls receiving a blunt response: I can’t be friends with anyone who would vote for Donald Trump. I’m sorry.
My wife and I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago that began with her telling me about a Facebook post from the wife of a college friend of mine who's transitioned over several months from making thinly-disguised digs at Hillary to basically outing herself as a full-on Trump supporter. I usually ask her not to tell me about the stupid political shit our friends are saying on Facebook (because it's a large part of why I'm not on Facebook) but in a way, I'm glad she told me. I'd always thought this woman was sort of flaky and not very good to my college friend when they were dating, but they seem to be happy together, have two beautiful kids, and I'd sort of come around to accepting her as part of our extended family.

But, like... come on. This isn't a disagreement about whether the top tax rate should be 25% or 40%. It's not about farm subsidies, or Common Core, or the quota on H1B visas. No, this fascist pile of excrement wants to round up undesirables. He wants to rattle his saber at Russia. He thinks it's okay to call women pigs because they don't meet his standard of beauty. He thinks more nuclear weapons in the world is a good thing. It matters very little whether she really thinks these are all good qualities for a President, or whether it's ignorance, or Clinton Derangement Syndrome, or whatever. The end result is support for an existential threat to our country that shouldn't be allowed within a hundred miles of the White House.

I think of myself as someone who's pretty good at compartmentalization, and who can usually see the good in otherwise flawed people, but if you look at Donald Trump's body of work as a public figure and see someone you want in control of the US Treasury and its armed forces... I just don't know how to process that, and I probably can't help but lose so much respect for you that I'd question how much I want to be in your company.

I've never had problems maintaining my friendships with McCain supporters, Romney supporters, even GWB supporters. In each of those cases, our differences in politics were there, but we could at least agree to disagree and still have productive relationships. But this, as the kids say, I can't even. If anyone closer to me were supporting Trump, they probably wouldn't be closer to me for long. If that makes me a bad person who's not trying hard enough to overcome differences, then so be it, but I have a lot of other friends and family in my life that would be harmed if this awful man were to win next month, and at some point, I have to err on the side of protecting their interests.

A few election threads ago, I mentioned a similar interaction with my father-in-law where I lost a ton of respect for him because he was leaning pro-Trump. I still hold out hope that I can change his mind, and obviously it's easier to cut ties with a college friend than it is with your wife's father, but there's a lot of talk above about how important it is that we not write people off because they think differently than we do, and in principle I agree, but this is a bridge too far. To hold an open hand out to these fascist enablers is to raise a fist to those who Trump has demeaned and demonized throughout his campaign. Sorry, but fuck all that -- we're trying to have a society here.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:18 PM on October 5, 2016 [122 favorites]


"But if you don’t say it correctly — it happened to a friend of mine, he was killed,"

Sorry, Donny, but Bad Lip Reading is not going to lampoon you again until they can come up with sillier nonsense to match your lipflaps than the things you're actually saying.
posted by jackbishop at 8:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald provides his own bad lip reading.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Before we start predicting what the 2020 campaign will look like can we consider that maybe the accomplishments of the Clinton administration would be a factor?

I really don't understand the 'Trump will kill the Republican party' thing going on here. No. He won't. They're going to immediately pretend that Trump didn't run, that no one endorsed him, and keep proclaiming that only tax cuts, "entitlement reform" and military adventurism can save America. That's what Republicans do, it's what they've always done, they've never once backed down or remotely changed course from continually stoking fear, religion and oppression to achieve the policy goals bought and paid for by the ownership class and overturn any achievements by liberals that threaten those goals, and Trump is a minor setback at best. They won't change their agenda remotely.

And they're going to keep winning in Congress and the States. The Senate is very much in doubt, and if the Democrats do retake it, they will lose it back again in 2018. Look at the map, that is just a fact. So Hilary will have, at best, 18 months of Democratic control of one house of Congress with which to pass her agenda and defend Obama's. Because the last two years of her first term are dead on arrival with a Republican united Congress obstructing her like they have Obama for 6 years. And if the Dems don't retake the Senate, just forget governing. They will not let her confirm a SCOTUS judge for her entire 4 year term, they may not confirm any judicial appointments, period. And it will be a daily struggle literally just to keep the federal government functioning without an indefinite shutdown.

Oh, and they have more Republican governors and statehouses now than in our history, and don't think it's lost on them that they're within sight of calling a Constitutional Convention from the States. They've talked about it.

That's the environment for 2020, it's the same as today, at best, only with even worse "fundamentals" running for a 4th consecutive Democratic term, and who knows what the economic picture will be. A one term Hilary administration is fairly likely if they can nominate a not-insane person to oppose her. So let's not fantasize about a permanent Democratic majority because of Trump. It's not going to happen, and at least Hilary's first term will be as bad or worse in terms of passing her agenda as anything Obama has faced.

Trump is a dangerous fool. He's winning 40% of the vote. The Republican Party is winning far more than that. They're not dying, they're not going away, in fact they are doing better than ever before on nearly everything that matters, with the lone exception of the Oval Office.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [52 favorites]


Clinton’s Samantha Bee Problem (nytimes.com)
Not Bee alone, of course, but the entire phenomenon that she embodies: the rapid colonization of new cultural territory by an ascendant social liberalism.

The culture industry has always tilted leftward, but the swing toward social liberalism among younger Americans and the simultaneous surge of activist energy on the left have created a new dynamic, in which areas once considered relatively apolitical now have (or are being pushed to have) an overtly left-wing party line.
[...]
First, within the liberal tent, they have dramatically raised expectations for just how far left our politics can move, while insulating many liberals from the harsh realities of political disagreement in a sprawling, 300-plus million person republic. Among millennials, especially, there’s a growing constituency for whom right-wing ideas are so alien or triggering, left-wing orthodoxy so pervasive and unquestioned, that supporting a candidate like Hillary Clinton looks like a needless form of compromise.
To be fair, what he's calling "left-wing orthodoxy" is probably the sort of "identity politics" which are a basic premise of my ability to exist as a transgender person.

Kind of relevant, one of Trevor Noah's recent episodes (Youtube link to a segment, whole episode here) touched on how Facebook helps to balkanize people, talking about one particular conservative commentator who regularly gets more views than Fox News has viewers. Takeaway: "Tomi Lahren is like a super-famous actor in a foreign country, except the foreign country is your country!"
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


"left-wing orthodoxy" like not being disenfranchised

"left-wing orthodoxy" like not condemning the poor to die in the street

"left-wing orthodoxy" like not rounding up millions of people
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump just tweeted out a UPI/CVOTER poll that has him +5 in Virginia. Everybody else has Clinton +6 or above. What's the deal there?
posted by zachlipton at 9:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Outliar.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [42 favorites]


If Samantha Bee gets people to turn out in the mid-terms. No let me rephrase. Hill-dawg's got this in the bag. Her number two fucked up his debate, on purpose, to provide a masterful ad and a very nice FARK meme to go with.

Samantha Bee has to get people to the polls next year. Multiple times next year, as the town and county all hold their own elections, and more than one per year. Then she really needs to ramp things up in 2018, as all of congress will be voted upon, and without congress, Hilldawg won't do shit (as she is not a fascist totalitarian.)

Yes. Vote this year. Great! Woman President!

Worthless unless you vote next year, informed on the issues being voted upon in the city/town you live in. Vote the year after that. Vote in the primaries, and then vote in the municipal, and then vote in the state-wides, and then vote for your National congress critters. It is insanely important you do so.

If this November is the first time you've voted since Barry was going for Two, you have failed your nation, your state, your community.

Vote Hillary and down-ticket this November. This is good, but not enough. She needs a congress to work with. Her congress needs a state legislature and executive she can work with.

Vote Hillary and down ticket next year. Even if it's for dog catcher, and especially if it's for school board. Vote for Hillary and down-tocket races the year after next, or all is lost.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


I have a feeling Douthat has very strong feelings about ethics in games journalism.
posted by Yowser at 9:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know that those are real polls, zach. He's also touting a purported UPI poll showing him up 4 points in PA. Until someone comes up with a link to an actual poll and not some right wing rag site claiming such a poll exists I'm not holding my breath. I certainly can't find those polls on the UPI site.
posted by Justinian at 9:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mass is what, the fifth bluest state in the union, and the governor is Republican because the gubernatorial elections are during mid terms and the Democrats don't show up like in a presidential year.

Others have spoken to this a bit, but I wanted to add something to this question about Republican governors in deep blue states. Honestly, I think that's a good thing for the political body. One party states tend towards corruption. They start to believe their shit don't stink. The Republicans that get elected in Massachusetts (Weld, Romney) aren't the same kinds of Republicans who get elected in, say, Texas. They provide compromise on one-party excess. And the congressional delegations tend to be overwhelmingly blue, so they can override any truly unpopular vetoes. That's the genius of the checks and balances we have (had) in the states and at the federal level. Massachusetts doesn't just survive a Republican governor, it actually benefits from it. Consider the states that have passed legitimate legislation on climate change. The majority had Democratic congresses and Republican governors (a nice parallel to the incredible environmental legislation under Nixon).

Compare that to the breakdown at the federal level. If the House weren't gerrymandered to shit and the Senate weren't walking in party lockstep like they were a parliamentary body and the Supreme Court hadn't ceded all notions of an apolitical judiciary, this country could totally survive Trump. But two thirds of our federal government have abdicated their responsibility. That's what makes this election so dangerous. If Trump were to be elected, he could do whatever the hell he wanted and there would be nothing in place to stop him.
posted by one_bean at 9:27 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump added a town-hall event in NH on short notice tomorrow night, presumably as debate prep -- not open to the general public, also bashing into the start of the Red Sox playoff series. Then there's nothing till Sunday's debate, and also the arrival of Hurricane Matthew (where current models show it passing by Mar-a-Lago, and possibly looping back for a second go).

UPI/CVoter has PA T+5, which is equally wacky. Tracking poll, small samples gathered over a long fieldwork period, and "Because the poll is conducted online and individuals self-select to participate, a margin of error cannot be calculated."
posted by holgate at 9:28 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ok, I think but am not certain (because Trump) that Trump is hanging his hat on some weird UPI state tracking polls. Ignore.
posted by Justinian at 9:29 PM on October 5, 2016


Or what holgate said.
posted by Justinian at 9:29 PM on October 5, 2016


I still hold out hope that I can change his mind [about voting for Trump], and obviously it's easier to cut ties with a college friend than it is with your wife's father...

Or your own. I've been trying for a few months to convince my dad not to vote for Trump. I send him articles. He's a vet, and I think I've presented a solid case that Trump would be a disaster for the military. And other things. He reads the articles and admits they make good points, but I haven't yet convinced him.

This week, I realized how little time there is left. I probably won't be able to bring him around.

So I cut bait. I threw one last hail-mary pass and sent him the USA Today anti-endorsement of Trump. And then I said I was done bugging him about politics, and I asked him please not to tell me whom he ended up voting for.

Because, right now, it's early October. I can hold out hope that he'll come around over the next month, that he won't be able to pull the lever for Trump. Right now, I don't know that he'll do it. I don't want to think about what our relationship would be like if I knew for sure that he went through with it.
posted by gurple at 9:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


UPI is owned by the Moonies, so.
posted by dersins at 9:34 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Others have spoken to this a bit, but I wanted to add something to this question about Republican governors in deep blue states. Honestly, I think that's a good thing for the political body. One party states tend towards corruption. They start to believe their shit don't stink. The Republicans that get elected in Massachusetts (Weld, Romney) aren't the same kinds of Republicans who get elected in, say, Texas.

There are ways, though, to move from a one-party Democratic controlled state to a two-party state without electing Republicans.

Also, though, in broader terms, I fail to see the benefit of having "moderate" elected Republicans around to give ideological cover for Republicans closer to the mainstream of the party.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


waaay late to the thread; hopefully not repeating but I wish the Clinton team would put more emphasis on Trump's 'rooting for the housing crisis' and his response of "that's business". I think that instead of pointing out that he is a crass pig, which we already knew, they need to drive that home because that will matter to the white lower middle class that supports him. It can also possibly affect undecideds to reveal how much contempt he really has for workers and the middle class, despite his populist "bring jobs back" stance. They need to spend less time on the beauty pageant thing and more time addressing the things that really appeal to his voter base and undecideds.

It's like someone above said, people went to a bonfire but then when they burned crosses, they stayed. I'm not sure *everybody* in his camp is racist, sexist and homophobic, but they're certainly willing to forgive it if he's going to be in their corner. Of course, there are those that completely agree with his vile crap, but I think his comments about offshoring jobs has really resonated with people. Those same people need to be reminded that he doesn't give a shit if you lose your house, therefore he probably genuinely doesn't give a shit if you're unemployed.

They also need to be reminded that he states business ethics and principles (as if he's on the side of labor and all that is right) but not only doesn't live up to them, and he outright betrays them. Such as when he previously said no one should do business with a murderer like Castro, then defies the embargo on Cuba.

I wish Kaine could be more like Biden. *sigh*
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wish Kaine could be more like Biden. *sigh*

Now that's an interesting thought. Apparently, Clinton could have picked Biden!
posted by gurple at 9:45 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Agreed, one_bean. I am very happy with Charlie Baker as the Republican governor of Massachusetts.
posted by yhbc at 9:50 PM on October 5, 2016


What's weirdest to me is the switch between using "left-wing" and "liberalism". It makes "left-wing" sound like a dogwhistle for communist.

In some ways it's true that the national culture is dominated by liberals - look at how much easier it is for the Democrats to get celebrities to stand on stage with them, for example. All the national news people film their shows in New York, as far as I know, even Fox; so they all live in New York. I never thought that football and basketball players would be making a stand for liberal politics in the sports arena itself. And it's true that a presidential candidate writing off a third of the country as "deplorable" and irredeemable is --

-- well, that's not actually unprecedented. That's actually right in line with how politicians would talk about black people.

ehh. I think that having some apolitical spaces is a good thing; it gives us some space to just forget about politics, and it allows us to have more things in common with people across the political spectrum. And Donald Trump is more than just his racist bullshit. On the other hand, he carries that racist bullshit with him wherever he goes.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:54 PM on October 5, 2016


How to Build a Democratic Majority That Lasts (also NYTimes, different writer, has some good links)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:06 PM on October 5, 2016


The Republicans that get elected in Massachusetts (Weld, Romney) aren't the same kinds of Republicans who get elected in, say, Texas. They provide compromise on one-party excess.

Sigh, I dunno. Hogan here in Maryland's hell-bent on disproving that theory.

And why is it that even the bluest of blue states will occasionally give the Republicans a shot at governorships while no deep-red state ever seems to give a Democrat a shot at the top office? Or am I missing something? (Admittedly, I don't follow a lot of state-level politics outside the mid-Atlantic.)
posted by CommonSense at 10:38 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bradley Burston: I Hadn't Been Called a Kike Since Fourth Grade. Donald Trump Changed All That
[cached version, if the paywall is a problem]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:40 PM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


Ross Douthat is right-wing, so anything from him about how such and such media outlet is Too Lefty gets a hearty guffaw from me. Especially the idea that Trump is the normal one and everyone else are a bunch of rabid commies. That simply reveals Douthat's personal biases, not anything relevant about media sectors being overly politicized.

Also I've found most of the News Comedy Halfhour type shows actually work really hard to portray both sides as flawed and/or ridiculous. It's just that Trump is kind of a separate case. Frankly I find the networks' attempts to cast Trump as just a normal totally non-fascist candidate to be much more heavy-handed than anything Samantha Bee or John Oliver are doing.
posted by Sara C. at 10:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


Kind of relevant, one of Trevor Noah's recent episodes (Youtube link to a segment, whole episode here) touched on how Facebook helps to balkanize people, talking about one particular conservative commentator who regularly gets more views than Fox News has viewers.

It took a while, but Trevor Noah and the new TDS team are really starting to hit their stride.
posted by joedan at 10:46 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know if this is true, apparently it's from a book written against Hillary Clinton, but the mental image of an 8 year old Hillary punching a boy petty enough to remember this decades later, and the fact that she did it to protect bunnies just makes me love her even more.

...

Dennis Burnham was four years younger and lived around the corner from Donald. He inherited his own impression of his neighbor from his mother, who warned that he should “stay away from the Trumps.”

“Donald was known to be a bully, I was a little kid, and my parents didn’t want me beaten up,” said Burnham, 65, a business consultant in Texas.

Once when she left Dennis in a playpen in a back yard adjoining the Trumps’ property, Martha Burnham returned to find Donald throwing rocks at her son. “She saw Donald standing at the fence,” Dennis Burnham said, “using the playpen for target ­practice.”

washington post, june 2016
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:56 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


Latinx is fine in print but a lot harder to use when you're actually talking to people, especially people who don't know/care about gender stuff

It's important to pronounce it "Latin-eks" instead of "luteenks".
posted by msalt at 10:57 PM on October 5, 2016


Or am I missing something?

Texas hasn't had a D governor since 1994, but that was Ann Richards so she counts anyway. SC, AL, KY, TN, and MS have had a D governor recently (since 2000). LA has one now.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:05 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I really don't understand the 'Trump will kill the Republican party' thing going on here. No. He won't. They're going to immediately pretend that Trump didn't run, that no one endorsed him, and keep proclaiming that only tax cuts, "entitlement reform" and military adventurism can save America. That's what Republicans do, it's what they've always done, they've never once backed down or remotely changed course from continually stoking fear, religion and oppression to achieve the policy goals bought and paid for by the ownership class and overturn any achievements by liberals that threaten those goals, and Trump is a minor setback at best. They won't change their agenda remotely.

Maybe, but 12 years (or potentially 16) out of the oval office might lead them to eventually crack... 12 years in the presidential wilderness for the Democrats led to Clinton, after all, who was very far from a simple continuation of the policies that had gotten them electorally spanked repeatedly (hell, pre-Clinton the Democrats held the presidency for only 4 years between 1969-1993). The Democrats realised they could only win a nationwide election by being 'centrist' (and continue to do so by putting forth Obama and Clinton II to carry their banner); I would not be surprised if a good chunk of Republicans realize that too.

Maybe we're in the midst of a major political realignment where the fringe right and left unite under some kind of isolationist, anti-trade, anti-immigration banner, but whatever happens, I cannot see it being 'business as usual' in the Republican party if they lose a third straight presidential election handily.
posted by modernnomad at 11:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really don't understand the 'Trump will kill the Republican party' thing going on here. No. He won't. They're going to immediately pretend that Trump didn't run, that no one endorsed him, and keep proclaiming that only tax cuts, "entitlement reform" and military adventurism can save America. That's what Republicans do, it's what they've always done, they've never once backed down or remotely changed course from continually stoking fear, religion and oppression to achieve the policy goals bought and paid for by the ownership class and overturn any achievements by liberals that threaten those goals, and Trump is a minor setback at best. They won't change their agenda remotely.

Ok, but who's 'they'? They, the Republican elected officials, or they, Trump's fired-up base who have just stated loud and clear that they are absolutely uninterested in status-quo Republicans and what they have to say? The party officials didn't want Trump, but they had to take him anyway, because people wanted him and liked what he was saying. And now he's demonstrated how effective those messages can be, there will be other primary challengers who imitate his rhetoric.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:21 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Looks like people are starting to pour through the bankruptcy docs that were posted earlier. In a deposition for Trump Plaza bankruptcy case, Trump's own lawyer says they had a policy to meet with him in pairs because Trump lies so much.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [78 favorites]


When Midwestern Nice Meets Midwestern Lies.

As a native Midwesterner, her descriptions amuse me, and seem pretty spot on.
posted by Superplin at 12:00 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


In state politics news tonight, Loretta Sanchez and Kamala Harris had their California Senate debate tonight. Sanchez exceeded the time limit on an answer, which the moderator took particularly strong efforts to enforce. She then dabbed as Harris looked on rather stunned (zoom in on that expression).

Then Harris's spokesman threw shade on Twitter: "Her dab was as weak as the rest of her debate performance." Sanchez's spokesmen had his own retort sometime later: "And this is why Millennials support @Loretta2016 for Senate. PPIC poll: Loretta 38, @KamalaHarris 24. Boom!"

2016, the darkest timeline, will continue after a word from our sponsor: Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [36 favorites]


Is the idea for the lawyers to have some kind of plausible deniability? ie: "Yes, we both heard Trump say that his dad never spent millions on grey casino chips to make an illegal loan.
posted by xyzzy at 12:04 AM on October 6, 2016


Probably to protect them from Trump later saying "Lawyer made that up. I never said it."
posted by mmoncur at 12:07 AM on October 6, 2016 [23 favorites]


"And this is why Millennials support @Loretta2016 for Senate. PPIC poll: Loretta 38, @KamalaHarris 24. Boom!"
Except the latest poll of all demographics by Sacramento State’s Institute for Social Research says 51% Harris, 19% Sanchez. Un-boom.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:13 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Bertrand Russell responds to an invitation to debate a fascist.
It is always difficult to decide on how to respond to people whose ethos is so alien and, in fact, repellent to one’s own. It is not that I take exception to the general points made by you but that every ounce of my energy has been devoted to an active opposition to cruel bigotry, compulsive violence, and the sadistic persecution which has characterised the philosophy and practice of fascism.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


> When Midwestern Nice Meets Midwestern Lies.

As a native Midwesterner, her descriptions amuse me, and seem pretty spot on.

Both Mr. Kaine and Mr. Pence were selected, in part, because of their fluency in Midwestern Nice. Mr. Kaine’s jolly demeanour offsets Ms. Clinton’s bureaucratic aloofness; Mr. Pence’s resemblance to a normal, functioning human being offsets Donald Trump.
...
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Don Lemon showed a clip tonight that gives me hope for the future. A neo-nazi altrighter was being interviewed at a Trump rally and this dude who looked like he just rolled up on a Harley after waxing his mutton chops told the racist to gtfo while the rest of the assembled crowd shouted the nazi down. It felt good, man.
posted by xyzzy at 12:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


My comment about Silber was sarcastic. 🙄
posted by pxe2000 at 1:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Calling someone "a colorful character" is praising with faint damnation. Or something.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Der Spiegel: (in English) Secret Meetings with Campaign: Germany Prepares for Possible President Trump
posted by XMLicious at 2:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


This oldster enlightened to discover she's been conflating "dab" and "dap" for just ages now. (I had also briefly thought "dab" might have something to do with spitting tobacco. "But that can't be right," thought I.) So this election has been good for SOMEthing.
posted by thebrokedown at 3:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


That Spiegel article is littered with craziness, Despite the difficulties in finding a serious contact person from within the Trump camp, the initial probing has now become a half-way regular exchange. and Trump's economic ideas, furthermore, "aren't feasible," violate international or US law and could not "provide the foundation for a realistic economic policy."

Trump would be a figure-head, like G.Bush jr., and so the real question becomes, who's pulling the strings? Is that even determined yet? Because there's real money on the line - Trump is one billionaire, but he's being backed and is playing to the interests of a handful of politically active, engaged billionaires. I'm under the impression that earning a billion dollars is a combination of luck and bloody-mindedness. And likely bloodier-mindedness than Trump knows is even possible. I imagine 14 seconds after he loses the trust of half these billionaires they turn against him and suddenly he really is an outsider.

So if Trump, as spectacularly unsuited to the office of President as my dog, were to somehow find himself the winner on November 9th, the first thing that would happen is a slow-motion assassination/coup that would take a week or two to decide who gets to 'run' him. Then whoever 'wins' assigns someone to be the front-man for the new 'regime' and the next four years are a living nightmare while the 'winner' makes a generational fortune and/or pursues whatever idiotic plan they believe most fervently is imperative for keeping 'Murica the greatest nation of all.

This was the genius of Cheney, he realized early on that no one was driving the bus and so took the wheel (remember the whole, 'Who should be VP? Why, I think just maybe it should be me!' *twinkly, disingenuous smile*) early and kept anyone else from getting too close. And then went on to kill a couple hundred thousand people while he amassed a fortune.

Since, it would seem, no one is running the Trump ship, I imagine the billionaires have swiveled their attention to Hillary, a totally competent, hard-working career politician they know they can work with. If no one billionaire/group/super PAC can be King-maker, they can at least take down with a thousand precise cuts anyone standing in their way. Which would be Trump. Which means I can go back to sleep.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Worth reading, Laurie Penny's diatribe Hillary Clinton: why I'm with her
[…] Clinton is a hawk with her beak deep in the Washington machine and talons aimed for the eyes of her enemies and I want her to be president. I want her and all the terrifying young women standing behind her in power so I can fight them on a battleground that isn't already ankle-deep in crypto-fascist gore.

A general election is about nothing more or less than choosing your enemy. Any government leader must be considered an enemy to those who believe in radical change. Hillary Clinton is not yet that enemy but by damn. I hope she gets to be. Hillary Clinton is the sort of enemy I’ve been dreaming of over ten years of political work. She’s the kind of enemy you can respect. I look forward to fighting her on her commitment to climate protection, on workers' rights, on welfare, on foreign policy. Bring that shit on. That's the sort of fight I relish.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [33 favorites]


Trump is one billionaire, but he's being backed and is playing to the interests of a handful of politically active, engaged billionaires.

Consider this alternate scenario, Donnie is one millionaire, but he's in debt to AND consequently obedient to the direction of a handful of international banks and potentially their controlling governments.
posted by mikelieman at 3:44 AM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


And from the p.o.v. of risk management, we need to expect the worst case scenario. Donnie can resolve this by letting us see what he's hiding in his tax return, but I wonder if at this point he won't be relieved to lose and try to recover the brand. If possible. Wealth managers talk about how %80 of family fortunes are lost by the 3rd generation. And here we are.
posted by mikelieman at 3:47 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, he's certainly capable of Making America a Colony Again.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:47 AM on October 6, 2016


More concerned about him perhaps having the DOJ lay off an investigation of one of his banker pals, who happens to be laundering terrorist money. When Donnie needs to choose between the interests of the United States, and Trump, Inc. I have doubts that he'll choose the United States.
posted by mikelieman at 3:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


crypto-fascist gore

sees what she did, there
posted by thelonius at 4:05 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can somebody explain what the eff Bill Clinton is doing? Is he going senile or what?
posted by Justinian at 4:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


More concerned about him perhaps having the DOJ lay off an investigation of one of his banker pals, who happens to be laundering terrorist money. When Donnie needs to choose between the interests of the United States, and Trump, Inc. I have doubts that he'll choose the United States.

This interview just happened last night.
"Do you worry that a trade war would hurt tourism and your business interests here," asked Snyder.

Trump supported his comments saying, "It will actually help, we're just talking about fairness, not like tough like we're not going to do business. Just tough so the US can make something."

"But what if China said no more visas to go to Las Vegas and stay at Trump Tower," pressed Snyder.

"If China ever did that, and we cut off relationship with China, China would go bust so fast," said Trump.
Trump would wholly consider cutting off diplomatic and trading relations if he was targeted personally in "just business" by a country.
posted by Talez at 4:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [62 favorites]


I would give my right arm for a journalist to clarify that 100% "so you're telling me that if China targeted only you then you'd cut off diplomatic and trade relations?" and when he says "yes of course" the journalist then replies "with all due respect sir, are you high?"
posted by Talez at 4:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


I wouldn't be surprised if Bill Clinton were slightly senile. I've been suspecting that since the DNC. Can't quite put my finger on it, but something hasn't seemed right.
posted by peacheater at 4:34 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can somebody explain what the eff Bill Clinton is doing? Is he going senile or what?

Can you point to what makes you ask? Some of us don't follow US news sources.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Most likely thinking of his Obamacare criticism the other day.
posted by thelonius at 4:39 AM on October 6, 2016


All this year he's been going off on Obama's supposed failings and criticizing his legacy. The latest is attacking Obamacare (Obama's signature piece of legislation) by calling it the craziest thing in the world.

Earlier this year he said that Obama wasn't an agent of change and, for example, the last 8 years left a terrible legacy.
posted by Justinian at 4:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


That's his walk-back, thelonius.
posted by Justinian at 4:41 AM on October 6, 2016


Heh the bunnyplot thickens, looks like Breitbart thought this was like devastating oppo research

Oh in the book he goes on and on just whining like you wouldn’t believe. Bear in mind this is an ADULT MAN holding this grudge.
posted by Tarumba at 4:41 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


The photo for the first bit of the bunnies seems to have vanished? What exactly happened?

And here's to a young Hillary Clinton defending bunnies.
posted by Francis at 4:51 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


How insane do you have to be to believe that "defender of baby bunnies" is a BAD look?
posted by kyrademon at 4:51 AM on October 6, 2016 [40 favorites]


All this year he's been going off on Obama's supposed failings and criticizing his legacy. The latest is attacking Obamacare (Obama's signature piece of legislation) by calling it the craziest thing in the world.

The thing is, his comments were pretty widely mischaracterized. The tl;dr is that he's been making the same criticisms most liberals have (it needs improvement, the SCOTUS ruling on Medicare expansion has been a huge stumbling block, etc) while also making criticisms of the US healthcare system as a whole.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:00 AM on October 6, 2016 [28 favorites]


Breitbart has trouble understanding that not everyone can unhinge their jaws and swallow small animals whole. It's also why he's so confused that more snake people aren't voting for Trump.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:00 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought Breitbart was dead, or is it a collective term for them now? I am okay with that.
posted by Artw at 5:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been trying for a few months to convince my dad not to vote for Trump. I send him articles.

I stopped this for a while because I've been disheartened at our failure to kill the nomination, but do those of you still trying to persuade family members not to vote Trump want me to post anti-Trump articles from the Republican side again?
posted by corb at 5:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


Breitbart the man is dead, Breitbart the website and "news" organization lives on.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:14 AM on October 6, 2016


Interesting that Emerson, a R leaning, landline only poll has Clinton up in AZ.

@benchmarkpol: Emerson Polls

FL
Trump 45
Clinton 44

NV
Trump 43
Clinton 43

RI
Clinton 52
Trump 32

AZ
Clinton 44
Trump 42

http://media.wix.com/ugd/3bebb2_7af2e664bfad4690bfb4a994b0f0836c.pdf
posted by chris24 at 5:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought Breitbart was dead, or is it a collective term for them now? I am okay with that.

Fair point, I was actually thinking about Alex Jones when I wrote that last comment. But I approve of referring to the entirety of the alt-right as a singular collective, like the borg if their prime directive was being a giant bag of dicks.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Breitbart the man is dead, Breitbart the website and "news" organization lives on.


Brietbart: Sadly not dead from pooping
posted by Artw at 5:16 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ever since Bush II: Freedom's Fart, (released in 2000,) I've been advocating the position that logic is not part of the Republican playbook. Plenty of Dems in my area go to great lengths to vehemently expose the canyons of irrational thought that the GOP tootle around in.

"Ah", I say, "but Fox News". Dirty looks ensue. Rinse/repeat.

The inherent thinking here (gloriously so) is that facts and persuasive arguments can carry the day. Not so for Trump's 40%. Bush's Iraq supporters. Reagan's acolytes.

We have to appeal wherever possible, or write them off - there is no cliff for them to fall over, no tax story or sexist boorishness will move any of them. Even the vets, even the businesspersons, even the kindest and most generous of Trump supporters cannot be won over with words.

Sentiment, a wave, a public image, music; these are what's left to work with. Otherwise we're just making ourselves feel better, which is 100% okay by me. Because landslide.
posted by petebest at 5:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obama's approval rating hits 55%, highest ever in his second term and tied with highest since his first year.
posted by chris24 at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2016 [28 favorites]


Paul Ryan’s slow-motion downfall: Stuck between Trump and the Tea Party, what’s a policy wonk to do?

Which is why Ryan will likely be fine in the aftermath of Trump’s likely defeat. He should be grateful his party nominated such an obvious con man for the presidency that it still can’t recognize it has another one in charge of the House of Representatives.
posted by petebest at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Favorite caller last night: A woman picked up, and I asked for a man's name (he was the only contact on the script). She asked who was calling, something about the way she said it made me think he wasn't there. When I said I was a volunteer with the Democratic Party, she eagerly responded, great!! Please get him to vote Democrat!! I've been talking to him!! Hold on! She runs and finds her husband, I'm hearing her happily shout, HONEY IT'S THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THEY WANT TO TALK TO YOOOOOOOU. He picks up, uh, hello? I start to go through my spiel, all the while hearing her in the background yelling at him to BE NICE, DON'T BE RUDE. He was perfectly lovely but totally not interested in talking with me. I was in tears laughing at the setup.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [126 favorites]


(Would somebody please explain IOKIYAR here and add it to the wiki page linked in the OP? It makes no damn sense to those of us who have not been compulsively reading the election threads since before the party conventions. Thanks!)
posted by ardgedee at 5:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


IOKIYAR
It's OK If You're A Republican
The explanation for the double standard applied to Republican misbehavior such as infidelity.
posted by kingless at 5:31 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Paul Ryan’s slow-motion downfall: Stuck between Trump and the Tea Party, what’s a policy wonk to do?

I must admit I feel a little sorry for the guy. He's been trying so hard to hawk his "A Better Way" plan (terrible as parts of it are) for House Republicans to get behind and all the media cares about is Trump's latest craptastrophe.
posted by Talez at 5:39 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ryan's "better way" is a plan to knowingly impoverish seniors, starve children, and crush the middle class, just saying.

Even though Paul Ryan is (rightly) publicly known as the granny starver in Liberal circles, the healthcare plan does have some some interesting ideas in it. A universal monthly payment that also can be banked into a HSA if someone elects to go for a HDHP for instance. This one would be great for snap payments of deductibles during years with health issues. Scrapping the insurance exclusion is another one that needs to be done and if Rs are willing to get behind it I say all the better. It's as regressive as a sales tax and subsidizes high end coverage plans at the expense of tax revenue. Also, letting small business form co-operatives to negotiate with health providers as larger entities is also something I can get behind.

I mean there's ideas there. And if Congress weren't a shithole of obstructionism as a visceral reaction to a black guy (and now possible a woman) being in the White House we'd probably have a far better health system than we do now.
posted by Talez at 5:57 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


At the next town hall debate:
Trump: *some horrible nonsense about Bill's infidelity*
Clinton: *goes very still*
(To the moderator) You're okay with where this is going? You're just going to sit there like a buddha?
Moderator: uh, my role --
Clinton: Indeed. Okay, I think I can wrap this up in about thirty seconds. Donald, maybe you thought that line would hurt me, make me crack. It doesn't, but even if it did, I'd never let you see. Early on in my life someone told me 'never let them see you bleed' and it's become something of a personal motto for me, in politics anyway. Yes, when Bill told me what he'd done I cried. A lot. And I also yelled. A lot. But on the other side of all that I realized that I still believed there was a way forward for us. Sure, I thought about ending the marriage, and if I'd done so who would've blamed me? But think I'd have ended up regretting it. This man is my partner. In everything. That's the call I made. Maybe you expect me to say something like 'it's in the past'. It isn't, really. I think about it often even when I'm not in the presence of people who think it's okay to throw it in my face. It didn't make me stronger: it made me realise I was strong. And that's all I'm going to say about that.
posted by um at 6:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [45 favorites]


I mean there's ideas there. And if Congress weren't a shithole of obstructionism as a visceral reaction to a black guy (and now possible a woman) being in the White House we'd probably have a far better health system than we do now.

Not to discount structural racism, but let's not pretend the GOP isn't full of people stroking themselves silly while fantasizing about poor people dying of preventable, easily treated diseases and injuries.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Meanwhile across the pond, perhaps a brief glimpse into a potential future Trump led GOP: Steven Woolfe ‘Bleeding On The Brain’ After Altercation At Ukip MEP Meeting
posted by PenDevil at 6:08 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is tearing families apart!

Wife of Ohio GOP chairman refuses to let him put a Trump sign in their yard
posted by zakur at 6:12 AM on October 6, 2016 [35 favorites]


(Would somebody please explain IOKIYAR here and add it to the wiki page linked in the OP? It makes no damn sense to those of us who have not been compulsively reading the election threads since before the party conventions. Thanks!)

The abbreviation / meme has been in use on political blogs almost since there have been political blogs. It's thought to have originated with Atrios on his eschaton site.
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2003

IOKIYAR
If you're a Republican you can lie with impunity and engage in corrupt practices because God says it's okay.

You can have children out of wedlock.

No matter what - It's Okay If You're A Republican!
by Atrios at 18:46
Atrios is also credited with originating the "Friedman unit" -- wherein we are forever six months of violence and chaos away from peace and justice in Iraq.
 
posted by Herodios at 6:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


So if Hurricane Matthew continues with worst-case projections (God please not again) and seriously messes up Florida with a month to go...

Do the parties have plans for this? Like how do you get out the vote when infrastructure is destroyed?
posted by schadenfrau at 6:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


The HSA thing sounds like more of the same. The Republican answer to any individual need is always a dedicated tax-deferred savings account of some kind. I can WIN!, so long as I can accurately predict how much I'll need to retire, how much I'll need for the hospital, how much for the kid's college, ...
posted by Rat Spatula at 6:16 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


In the Hillary app, each user has a "Digital HQ" that's decorated like an office, with desks, tables, etc. The tables have food on them, and recently, they made an update so the food changes every day. Today's food? TACOS! With a tiny bottle of hot sauce next to them!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think the idea that the billionaires will never allow Trump to really take control is a pleasant fiction. At the onset of World War I, John Maynard Keynes assured everyone, as many people did, that the bankers would never let a major war go on for very long -- too much money on the table. The bankers wanted it to stop as much as everyone else did and could do nothing.

Hell, we learned that the powers that be would never let Trump get the nomination. Yet here we are.

I think the powers that be are more of an effect than a cause, and they cannot unite to stop anything. Especially a black swan like Donald Trump.
posted by argybarg at 6:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [40 favorites]


Stuck between Trump and the Tea Party, what’s a policy wonk to do?

If we find one there we should be sure to ask him
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


(added IOKIYAR to the mefi wiki election glossary. Thanks!)
posted by ardgedee at 6:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


IOKIYAR
It's OK If You're A Republican
The explanation for the double standard applied to Republican misbehavior such as infidelity.

Ok wow - this whole time I thought it stood for "It's OK If You're A Republican" as in, we still like you as a person, we're not judging you, we're just calling out the bad thing you just did - like all of a sudden all of MeFi was doing a "love the sinner, not the sin" thing that kept making me want to shout NO! It's a double standard and it's not okay!

This makes much more sense.
posted by Mchelly at 6:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Shorter debate response to any mention of Bill's affairs: You're lecturing ME on marital fidelity?

or: "Well, there's only one Adulterer on this stage, and it's not me."
posted by Chrischris at 6:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Reactions to last night's First Lady debate.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why isn't there more Ryan + Trump? McConnell + Trump?

Apparently the ol' granny-starver has several high-profile campaign swings scheduled. Mostly over at the BBQ place off Hwy 40, supporting Jim Squirrelly for State Senate.
*eyeroll*

Mitch "Lock Her Up" McConnell, meanwhile, is excited for Trump to lose so he can "get things done" with a divided gummint. The utter failure of Congress in the last six years, however, is Obama's fault.

Chew your own balls off, Mitch!
posted by petebest at 6:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Chew your own balls off, Mitch!

You should check out that AskMe about alternative e-mail sign-offs. I think you have something to contribute.
posted by No-sword at 6:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [58 favorites]


Shorter debate response to any mention of Bill's affairs: You're lecturing ME on marital fidelity?

If there were ever a opportunity for HRC to have her "You're no Jack Kennedy/At long last have you no decency" moment, it would be for Trump to bring up Bill's affairs. I have to think his campaign is pushing him away from this and preferring to keep it in the press rather than on the debate stage. Is he disciplined enough to stay away from it on stage? I doubt it. Maybe not on Sunday, but I'd bet in the final debate.

My boss sent an email to our small company (which he owns) urging us all not to vote for HRC, citing Bill's remarks on the ACA. It's going to feel extra good phone banking tonight in his honor.
posted by gladly at 6:43 AM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


Iowa just flipped back to blue on 538 with polls only.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


Ok, but who's 'they'? They, the Republican elected officials, or they, Trump's fired-up base who have just stated loud and clear that they are absolutely uninterested in status-quo Republicans and what they have to say? The party officials didn't want Trump, but they had to take him anyway, because people wanted him and liked what he was saying.

Sure, but Trump and Trumpism has no policy ideas or goals apart from the few insane and poorly fleshed out redmeat plans that form almost the entirety of his campaign. Build a wall. Tear up trade deals and alliances. Recently he added nationwide stop and frisk. Beyond that, Trump has no fucking clue about how the government works, and no policy team of his own backing him up. So what would a Trump administration look like? Pence gave away the game in the debate, he mentioned entitlement reform as still a thing, where Trump has promised not to touch benefits for his old white base. But Trump won't be running the day to day, remember, he's said he would delegate "foreign and domestic policy" to Pence, who would be doing the nuts and bolts work of Making America Great, because Trump literally might not be capable of reading a bill or position paper. That means that the actual working of the government would fall back to wetdream whitepapers from Heritage and Koch World, probably punctuated by whatever insanity out of Hannity-land catches Trump's eye on a given day. That's why the Republican establishment is working with Trump, they know their guys will be running the show on the ground, implementing rightwing policies as planned. Look at Trump's tax plan, it's the same as any other Republican tax plan, only bigly-er. And he'll sign every Paul Ryan wishlist out of the GOP congress, it's not like he's going to veto granny-starving.

So no, I don't believe there's any meaningful distinction between Trump and a hypothetical Jeb! or Rubio administration, and the primaries proved the point. Trump won because he said the Republican goals louder and bigger than anyone else, and added an extra special sauce of crazy and racism, but they've been the same goals across the board the entire time. And what is the Trump base going to do if he does win and the 1% keep winning even more while they lose their Obamacare, and keep sliding further down the globalism ladder, vote for a Democrat? Hardly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:54 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


If Trump brings it up, something like "Is your campaign so out of ideas that it's dredging up hurtful moments from twenty years ago?"
posted by drezdn at 6:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Do the parties have plans for this? Like how do you get out the vote when infrastructure is destroyed?

I don't know, but unless this thing swerves for no apparent reason (there are no weather systems or land masses that would push it), it's going to be a catastrophic disaster. Perhaps the first Category 5 hurricane to hit the U.S. since Hurricane Andrew in 1992.
posted by sallybrown at 6:56 AM on October 6, 2016


Hurricane (or was it a superstorm) Sandy was right before the 2012 election, and I think they managed to get most people to the polls. Wasn't there some deal in New Jersey where they were letting people vote by email? Anyway, it's not that close to the election, and I think they'll figure things out. There are many things to worry about with a catastrophic hurricane, but I don't think the election is one of them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump desperately needs to change the news cycle somehow because he's bleeding out right now. His poll numbers nationally and in most battleground states look completely awful and basically his holding on to the faint hope that he's still within striking distance in Florida and Ohio.

But the reality is that Hillary is putting up such massive polling numbers in Virginia and some other "battleground" states that she can afford for Ohio to vote for Cheetoh Jesus because Ohio is no longer a bellweather state.

The not so slow advance of the Democrats along the eastern seaboard into Virginia and North Carolina and the sea of blue that is the current desert southwest are completely negating any sort of weakness in demographically challenging areas of the midwest.

The transformation of the parties into a party determined to maintain White Privilege and a party that embraces the coming demographic changes has been below the surface for most of the last 16 or so years but this election is putting that division into stark relief perhaps even more stark than Obama's 2 winning elections.
posted by vuron at 7:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'd kind of like to see Hillary do what Obama did in 2008, and buy time for a 30 minute program laying out her plans for America.
posted by drezdn at 7:05 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Of course Trump would live tweet it.
posted by drezdn at 7:06 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd kind of like to see Hillary do what Obama did in 2008, and buy time for a 30 minute program laying out her plans for America.

Of course Trump would live tweet it.

Entire dissertations would be written about whether the six-point jump in the polls was because of Clinton's agenda or Trump shitting all over himself during the program.
posted by Etrigan at 7:08 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


> If Trump brings it up, something like "Is your campaign so out of ideas that it's dredging up hurtful moments from twenty years ago?"

I'd go for “Where did you find this?”
posted by farlukar at 7:09 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


I doubt he'd tweet it unless she mentions him.
posted by zutalors! at 7:09 AM on October 6, 2016


Presented without comment (because I am smothering my sniggering):
Senate Republicans were skimmed for six months, quietly fix store

Did you order anything from the Senate Republicans in the last half year? In that case, your name and credit card details have been skimmed and sent to a Russian server. And subsequently sold on the dark web for $30.

Update Oct 6th: The Republicans have rushed to secure their store today. But no word about the skimming between March 16th and October 5th.

See a short video where I demonstrate how the skimming works. And read on to find out how I traced the culprits to a hornet’s nest of criminal activity.
OK: one comment: something, something operate your own server something. *popping noise as eye rolled too far falls out of socket*
posted by wenestvedt at 7:14 AM on October 6, 2016 [35 favorites]


Oh in the book he goes on and on just whining like you wouldn’t believe. Bear in mind this is an ADULT MAN holding this grudge.

"Tell me again about the rabbits, Jim"
posted by PlusDistance at 7:14 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Unfortunately, it looks like Trump might have learned something from Prince's performance: He's saying he won't bring up Bill's infidelity at the next debate.

Let's hope he can't keep his ego in his pants.
posted by stolyarova at 7:16 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Since I haven't seen it posted here, and since there are probably way fewer eyes headed to formerly-Gawker sites: here's a weird fucking story about Donald Trump and Mike Tyson.

Note that the title isn't "fucking weird."
posted by rp at 7:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'd go for “Where did you find this?”

Weird grimace and then "Didn't happen. That's ridiculous, Donald."
posted by No-sword at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


But he will keep talking about how he didn't bring it up and wow isn't he the classiest bravest guy for not bringing it up, not like Hillary who is so meeeaaaan to him.
posted by like_neon at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


States Keep Weaseling Around Court Orders Blocking GOP Voting Restrictions
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]



Well he also said before the last debate that he would and could be Presidential and that he has the best temperament. Look how that turned out.

With the way his mind seems to work just having the thought in is head 'Must not do this, should not say this, don't do this.." heightens the chance of a 'blurrrg' to release the pressure. He can't handle being told not to do things that he really wants to do.
posted by Jalliah at 7:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Unfortunately, it looks like Trump might have learned something from Prince's performance:
Ha, if only Trump learned from Prince.
posted by zutalors! at 7:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


Since I haven't seen it posted here, and since there are probably way fewer eyes headed to formerly-Gawker sites: here's a weird fucking story about Donald Trump and Mike Tyson.

I'd bet good money Trump made that story up out of whole cloth, but the alt.racists must love it.
posted by dersins at 7:22 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha, if only Trump learned from Prince.

Which part? Wearing purple suits or "I never meant to cause you any pain"?
posted by Talez at 7:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Autocorrect. Prince > Pence in all cases.
posted by stolyarova at 7:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Which part? Wearing purple suits or "I never meant to cause you any pain"?
My brain went straight to Trump wearing assless chaps.

I really wish it hadn't.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


My brain went straight to Trump wearing assless chaps.

I really wish it hadn't.

WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS OUT AND POST IT! gah
posted by Jalliah at 7:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [35 favorites]


stolyarova : Autocorrect. Prince > Pence in all cases.

(HAHAHAHAHAHA! I thought you really meant "Prince" -- auto corrupt never occurred to me!)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:28 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS OUT AND POST IT! gah
In the immortal words of Preston Sturges, why should I suffer alone?
posted by pxe2000 at 7:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Unfortunately, it looks like Trump might have learned something from Prince's performance

This is what is sounds like when cucks cry?
posted by nubs at 7:30 AM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's saying he won't bring up Bill's infidelity at the next debate.

The article says:
“I want to win this election on my policies for the future, not on Bill Clinton’s past,” Trump told me via e-mail. “Jobs, trade, ending illegal immigration, veteran care, and strengthening our military is what I really want to be talking about.”
Since it's pretty well known that Trump doesn't email, you should read it as "Trump campaign spokesperson hopes he won't bring up Bill's infidelity."
posted by peeedro at 7:31 AM on October 6, 2016 [50 favorites]


I can WIN!, so long as I can accurately predict how much I'll need to retire, how much I'll need for the hospital, how much for the kid's college, ...

"But mostly, as long as I don't get sick. Because deserving people don't get sick, and if they do, there's bake sales."
posted by holgate at 7:32 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Lastly, for all of you who hate “the establishment,” think Barack Obama has ruined the country, and just want to “blow shit up,” let me offer you this: If you are an average person with an education and a genie offered you the chance to live in any country, at any time, in the history of the world, you would be a moron not to pick the USA in 2016.

The Conservative Case Against Donald Trump
Six reasons Republicans should not vote for Trump in November

by Tim Miller
posted by Groundhog Week at 7:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


Trump: [rant about infidelity]

Moderator: Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond?

Clinton: No. (smiles)

That's all she needs to do.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [31 favorites]


Wife of Ohio GOP chairman refuses to let him put a Trump sign in their yard

Yah, cute 'n' all, but it's because she despises Clinton and wanted (personal friend, incumbent Ohio governor, and "Supercuts" spokesmodel) John Kasich to be president.
 
posted by Herodios at 7:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I must admit I feel a little sorry for the guy [Paul Ryan]. He's been trying so hard to hawk his "A Better Way" plan (terrible as parts of it are) for House Republicans to get behind and all the media cares about is Trump's latest craptastrophe.

I don't feel sorry for the Randian schmuck one bit. No one forced him to become Speaker of the House at a time when his party is going so crazy as to keep him from implementing most of his agenda.

I do wish the media would care that Ryan is a con man who has no "better way," just the same voodoo economics these frauds have been pushing since Reagan.
posted by Gelatin at 7:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Unfortunately, it looks like Trump might have learned something from Prince's performance

I only wanted to see you
Voting in the purple states
posted by nubs at 7:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [60 favorites]


Lastly, for all of you who hate “the establishment,” think Barack Obama has ruined the country, and just want to “blow shit up,” let me offer you this: If you are an average person with an education and a genie offered you the chance to live in any country, at any time, in the history of the world, you would be a moron not to pick the USA in 2016.

Uhh no you'd go to Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, because then at least you'd get free healthcare, paid parental leave and mandatory paid time off.
posted by dis_integration at 7:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [49 favorites]


Uhh no you'd go to Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, because then at least you'd get free healthcare, paid parental leave and mandatory paid time off.

You're not thinking like a Republican.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:43 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


'Murica?
posted by stolyarova at 7:43 AM on October 6, 2016


danapiper: we like strong small state government and that's a pretty big thing that Republicans do fairly well?

As a cynical Dem and government employee, I see "smaller government" meaning "more consultants and outsourcing, which still needs government employees to oversee and verify the work is being done well, after the contracts are written up, go through legal review, are put out to bid, and then the bids are reviewed, possibly with in-person interviews of the top 3-5 bidders, with the additional fun of contested results in some cases, all of which means months to more than a year of non-productive time."

Oh, and more criticism of current government employees, instead of paying for better training or *gasp* competitive wages. (See: "education reform" touted by an unqualified shill for education "companies" being pushed for state secretary of Education who was secretary designate for over four years, and luckily for teachers, the teacher evaluations, which aren't transparent and could impact future employment, have been "temporarily blocked" for almost a year now -- oh, and there's an ongoing teacher shortage, so we maybe should make it more appealing to teach, instead of seeking punishment for "underperforming" teachers who are so bold as to make use of some of their sick leave and vacation time /rant)

There are certain services that are, in my eyes, best provided by government as these services get no gains by being driven by profits (prisons, schools, roads, fire and police services, to name a few). "Smaller government" means less oversight and transparency, and more profits for big money donors to political campaigns and/or companies who promise to "bring more jobs" to a region or state, without going into detail how those jobs pay, or what benefits (if any) are included.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [69 favorites]


That skimming hack on the Senate Republican online store is nasty. The security researcher doesn't speculate on how the code was inserted into the payment path, but does a good job of tracing out the infrastructure and organisations behind it; it's very slick and well-protected. and there's no telling how many other sites have been compromised in this way.

Moral: don't go putting your payment card details into anything run by an organisation that doesn't know anything about security.
posted by Devonian at 7:47 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not to mention, free healthcare means your elderly grandparents or parents also have really great healthcare which means not having to play unpaid nursing assistant because you're not Trump wealthy. (Assuming this average person has parents, genie notwithstanding.)
posted by fragmede at 7:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Moral: don't go putting your payment card details into anything run by an organisation that doesn't know anything about security.

Grifters grifting grifters who grift grifters. It's the circle of life.
posted by dis_integration at 7:51 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Lastly, for all of you who hate “the establishment,” think Barack Obama has ruined the country, and just want to “blow shit up,” let me offer you this: If you are an average person with an education and a genie offered you the chance to live in any country, at any time, in the history of the world, you would be a moron not to pick the USA in 2016.

Uhh no you'd go to Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, because then at least you'd get free healthcare, paid parental leave and mandatory paid time off.

I'd stay in Canada, which has all those things, plus marriage equality.
posted by peppermind at 7:52 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


I would choose the US, immediately post-war, which would give another 20 years of boom times before the 73 crash.
posted by corb at 7:56 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would choose the US, immediately post-war, which would give another 20 years of boom times before the 73 crash.

Yeah I would say that was the peak of US power and wealth, but despite that it's only a great option for white heterosexual men.
posted by dis_integration at 7:57 AM on October 6, 2016 [35 favorites]


Any country at any time in the history of the world? I choose the Mediterranean during the hunter-gatherer period.
posted by No-sword at 7:58 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Congrats! Now you understand "Make America great again!"
posted by instamatic at 7:59 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also, as a bonus, I would probably be dead by now and wouldn't have to witness this debacle of an election and the death of American Democracy.
posted by corb at 7:59 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm with Peppermind. I'd just stay here. The only way I'd choose the US is if I was quite rich, like don't have to work if I don't want to rich. That's the only way I'd feel secure enough that I will have to go into debt or bankrupt if I get really sick at some point in my life.
posted by Jalliah at 8:00 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Uhh no you'd go to Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, because then at least you'd get free healthcare, paid parental leave and mandatory paid time off.

-- I'd stay in Canada, which has all those things, plus marriage equality.

Yeah, but the US has way more flavors of cheese curls
posted by Mchelly at 8:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Every person separately sets aside money for the same classes of expense = Efficiency.

As filthy light thief says:
"more consultants and outsourcing, which still needs government employees to oversee and verify the work is being done well, after the contracts are written up, go through legal review, are put out to bid, and then the bids are reviewed, possibly with in-person interviews of the top 3-5 bidders, with the additional fun of contested results in some cases, all of which means months to more than a year of non-productive time."
Paying a guy to pay a guy = Efficiency.
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:02 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Not everyday a candidate says he'd start a trade war to protect his business.

@ddale8: Nevada TV: What if China cut off visas to let people visit Trump hotels?
Trump: We could cut ties with China.

http://news3lv.com/news/local/exclusive-one-on-one-with-presidential-candidate-donald-trump
posted by chris24 at 8:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


We're all saying that we wouldn't choose the US, or at least not the current version of it, but I bet the sentiment really speaks to the people it's meant to reach, and I hope they absorb what the author was telling them - that Trump won't make America great again, unless your idea of great looks an awful lot like Panem from the Hunger Games.

On a side note, Mchelly, who cares about cheese curls, when you've got poutine?
posted by peppermind at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also, as a bonus, I would probably be dead by now...

And you would certainly have a wealth of options for how that happened without modern medicine.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:06 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ha! That's nothing! If you live in the UK you get schools making lists of foreign kids and a new permissive attitude towards war crimes. Take that, EU!
posted by Artw at 8:08 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


@Nate_Cohn: The UNF poll--a good one--shows Clinton+3 in Florida two-way, +7 in the two-way https://www.unf.edu/coas/porl/2016_Florida_Fall_Statewide_Presidential_Poll.aspx
posted by chris24 at 8:08 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


As a cynical Dem and government employee, I see "smaller government" meaning "more consultants and outsourcing, which still needs government employees to oversee and verify the work is being done well, after the contracts are written up, go through legal review, are put out to bid, and then the bids are reviewed, possibly with in-person interviews of the top 3-5 bidders, with the additional fun of contested results in some cases, all of which means months to more than a year of non-productive time."

I was a driver license examiner in Tennessee from 2013 to 2016 (we moved to NC for my wife's work, so I quit to be a stay-at-home dad) and a couple times a year there was someone higher up the chain saying that we needed to do better, or the state would privatize the issuance of Driver Licences.

Tennessee is already dipping its toe in this water by farming out Commercial DL road skills tests to 3rd party testers. When I left, there was only 1 DL office in the state that performed the CDL road skills test (though they were testing mobile units too as a pilot program -- don't know if those are still around), otherwise, you had to do the test through a certified instructor. Once you passed the test through the 3rd party instructor, you still had to go to the DL office to be issued your Commercial DL. If anything, the transition to 3rd party testing has increased the complexity of obtaining a CDL in TN because now you have to deal with the state DL office and a separate 3rd party tester, instead of taking care of it in just one location.

There are pros and cons to this that I won't go into at this time (it's derail-y). I just wanted to piggy back on what filthy light thief said above.
posted by Groundhog Week at 8:09 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

From 1987 Twitter:

@RonaldReagan: "Tear down this wall!"
posted by nubs at 8:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


From Bklyn: Since, it would seem, no one is running the Trump ship, I imagine the billionaires have swiveled their attention to Hillary, a totally competent, hard-working career politician they know they can work with.

I've heard (but can't find a link for) conservatives who say they'd rather vote for Clinton and have four years of stability and knowing what they're working with/against, versus the chaos and uncertainty that they expect from a Trump presidency. Better the enemy you know.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would choose the US, immediately post-war, which would give another 20 years of boom times before the 73 crash.

And a 90% tax on the wealthy until Kennedy lowered it.
posted by Gelatin at 8:13 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

Berlin Wall: 96 miles. US-Mexico border: 1,989 miles. Yes these are totally analogous situations. Also have these people no shame?
posted by dis_integration at 8:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


Paying a guy to pay a guy = Efficiency.

Yeah it seems pretty self-evident to me that using contractors is just a stupid, overly-complicating, corruption-inviting, cost-inefficient way to do work that will be needed on an ongoing basis. It makes sense maybe for one-off projects or projects that require specialized skills but outsourcing basic functions of government is the sort of madness at which a genuine common-sense pragmatic conservative should shudder.

I imagine Edmund Burke, Dwight Eisenhower and Jerry Ford are drinking heavily as they watch from Valhalla.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Berlin Wall: 96 miles. US-Mexico border: 1,989 miles. Yes these are totally analogous situations.

That analogy also presupposes shooting anyone who tried to cross the wall, which I honestly didn't believe the Republican Party was yet depraved enough to endorse.
posted by Gelatin at 8:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [23 favorites]


YET.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


To be fair to Crowley, that photo was taken last year and bubbled back into social media consciousness.

To be equally fair to Crowley, it was a ridiculous thing to say a year ago, befitting someone who established her conservative credentials in the 90s as Nixon's penpal and research assistant.
posted by holgate at 8:21 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


That analogy also presupposes shooting anyone who tried to cross the wall

And that the southern border wall would be to stop people escaping the US, which, to be fair...
posted by holgate at 8:23 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mostly just hope Trump actually doesn't bring the Bill stuff up, because eww and because she doesn't need that shit. But if he does, I figure my fantasy Clinton response might as well go full fantasy:

Trump: *bullshit about Bill*
Clinton: *dissolves into a fog of nanotechnological constructors and rearranges Trump into a giant two-headed bluebird that only speaks high-school French*
Trump: "Juh muh pell Doe-nahld!" and "La plume duh muh taunt est soooooor luh tabluh!" simultaneously.
Clinton: *reveals her true form*
All: *love her and despair*
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [42 favorites]


Trump courts the terminally ill vote
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also have these people no shame?

Election 2016: The Death of Shame.
posted by nubs at 8:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pope Guilty: let's not pretend the GOP isn't full of people stroking themselves silly while fantasizing about poor people dying of preventable, easily treated diseases and injuries.

I've been watching a fictional drama set in 19th century London and I keep thinking "I am so glad the modern world is cleaner and more orderly for more people, and we have modern medicine to treat ailments instead of mercury. Let's never get back to that world."
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 AM on October 6, 2016


If you live in the UK you get schools making lists of foreign kids and a new permissive attitude towards war crimes. Take that, EU!

The US puts poor kids and minority kids into special "urban" school districts and defunds the hell out of them while allowing "suburban" districts to raise their own local funding for schools, consequently causing property taxes to be just high enough that the poors can't buy in.

We also have a permissive attitude toward war crimes but it is not particularly new.

Trump courts the terminally ill vote

Plus, my god, our national news outlets are not capable of a tenth the level of shade that your public broadcaster just exhibited
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, the Great Wall of Trump will be manned right? What do we think will happen to attempted encroachers? They'll be politely turned around and sent back the other direction with a postcard?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:28 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump courts the terminally ill vote

See also Peter Serafinowicz's latest Sassy Trump dub.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2016


Fuck Paul Ryan. He's actively working to elect Trump.

@JoePerticone: Paul Ryan will campaign with Donald Trump in Wisconsin on Saturday
posted by chris24 at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Allegra Kirkland: GOP Rep Heaps Praise On Official From Oath Keepers Militia Group At Fundraiser
At a breakfast last Saturday hosted by the American Bedrock Foundation, Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) called Edward Durfee, regional coordinator for the New Jersey Oath Keepers and co-founder of the Bedrock Foundation, an “unsung hero.”

The Oath Keepers are considered “militia extremists” who are a “domestic terrorist threat” by New Jersey’s Office of Homeland Security. The group's members, a loose coalition of current and former law enforcement and military officials who pledge to defend the Constitution against government overreach, were involved in the armed takeover of a national wildlife refuge in Oregon earlier this year.
[...]
Garrett serves as chair of the House Subcommittee on Capital Markets, but his support among the Wall Street institutions who rely on his committee to oversee U.S. capital markets collapsed last year after his negative comments about gay lawmakers were made public. According to Bloomberg, Garrett refused to pay his party dues because he was upset that Republicans were recruiting and backing gay candidates.

Without the support of banks and hedge funds, Garrett has turned to individual donors to back his campaign. Bloomberg reported that Donald Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway ha donated over $5,000 to Garrett this year.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:34 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


J.K. Seazer: @MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

... at dividing a country from within? Waaiit... I think that was way more Freudian than anyone realized.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


I would choose the US, immediately post-war, which would give another 20 years of boom times before the 73 crash.

Provided you didn't contract polio.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mike Pence Pretends Donald Trump Isn't His Running Mate: A Closer Look

Seth has a great bit where he pairs Trump's statements with Pence's dismissiveness.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


I would choose the US, immediately post-war, which would give another 20 years of boom times before the 73 crash.

1945 as a not-anglo not-dude? Wouldn't touch that shit with a someone else's ten foot pole.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: 'At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work.'

1) East Germany's still going strong, right?
2) The Anti-Fascist Protective Wall was to keep people in, not to keep people out
3) At least 136 people were killed trying to escape over the Wall
posted by kirkaracha at 8:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Rat Spatula: Paying a guy to pay a guy = Efficiency.

Worse, paying one person to pay 100 (after reviewing their deliverables based on the requirements in their contracts) is seen as being super efficient in terms of downsizing "bloated government," except then you get chabuduo, or good enough (for government work), with the bonus of being able to blame the government for failures in oversight, so you can finally shift to the ideal state of self-regulation. Because the market will totally monitor itself, right?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:39 AM on October 6, 2016


Here's the "terminally ill" video
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:40 AM on October 6, 2016


Of course Ryan is campaigning with Trump, he knows Trump will sign everything put on his desk.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


I mean, the Great Wall of Trump will be manned right?

I thought Trump had at one time had called for his wall to have a moat filled with alligators. But that was another GOP loony, Herman Cain.
posted by zakur at 8:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nick Offerman Explains the Pleasures of Woodworking and Why He Won't Vote Trump:
I think unfortunately, for the democratic process, there's no logical or sane or moral choice to be made other than voting for Hillary Clinton. But I also think that if she were not a woman, we would not be in this boat. I think the election would be over already. And that's another sad thing, that a large reason there's so much anger and mistrust of her is because people are very reluctant to see the patriarchy topple. I am incredibly excited that the glass ceiling will be shattered. I mean, we've had our first black president and we'll probably have our first woman president. And of course we're going to go kicking and screaming as a nation into that, we would have it no other way. At the end of the day, we're all a bunch of big babies. But what an exciting accomplishment.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on October 6, 2016 [86 favorites]


> Congrats! Now you understand "Make America great again!"

The Republican party has fought against healthcare, paid time off, reproductive choice, so voting for the Republican party's nominee isn't likely to further those goals. But I could not favorite harder because it's an empathetic and astute point.
posted by fragmede at 8:44 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mike Pence Pretends Donald Trump Isn't His Running Mate: A Closer Look

The 30 seconds at the end is particularly good.
posted by mochapickle at 8:55 AM on October 6, 2016


So to clarify my previous comment, I meant "strong, small-state government," not a strong-and-small state government. I think we are in full agreement, filthy light thief.
posted by danapiper at 9:01 AM on October 6, 2016


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

Aleister Crowley is now the second-worst Crowley.
posted by donatella at 9:03 AM on October 6, 2016 [29 favorites]


Ari Berman: Texas’s Voter-Registration Laws Are Straight Out of the Jim Crow Playbook
 “Anytime someone has success registering minority or Democratic voters, there’s an investigation opened to scare people away from doing it,” says Chad Dunn, a voting-rights lawyer in Houston. After a progressive group called Houston Votes submitted 25,000 voter-registration applications in 2010, mostly from low-income people of color, Tea Party activists accused the group of voter fraud. Then–Attorney General Greg Abbott, now the state’s governor, sent agents in bulletproof vests to raid the group’s office and destroy its computers and records. Charges were never filed, but Houston Votes was forced to shut down.

National groups that specialize in voter registration have been forced to abandon Texas. “We decided that there was no way that we could do voter-registration work here without the risk of prosecution,” says Michael Slater, president of Project Vote, which has registered 5.6 million voters nationwide since 1994, including 35,000 in Texas in 2008. Project Vote challenged the registration restrictions in 2012 and won a preliminary injunction from a federal district court, but it was overturned by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, the most conservative appellate court in the country.
[...]
 The same day I attended the VDR training session with Tunde, I received an announcement that Oregon had registered 300,000 new voters in the past year, a 14 percent increase from 2015. If Texas is the toughest state in the country to register voters, Oregon is the easiest. In January, it became the first state to automatically register any citizen who obtains a driver’s license or a state ID at the Department of Motor Vehicles. There are no deputies to train, no forms to return within five days, no threats of criminal prosecution.
And so Shelby v Holder continues to be one of this country's worst blights on citizen engagement in democracy.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2016 [39 favorites]


Nick Offerman Explains the Pleasures of Woodworking and Why He Won't Vote Trump

Sad that the drop quote wasn't the woodworking part.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Personally, if Trump threatens to bring up Bill's infidelity, I'd be satisfied with Hillary pulling a "Please proceed".
posted by vverse23 at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


there's so much anger and mistrust of her is because people are very reluctant to see the patriarchy topple.

I totally disagree with this. The reason the Clintons get so much crap flung at them is because they espouse a basically 1970s Republican platform. If they were leftier, they could, and would, be attacked for policy.

And being male didn't help Kerry much. Or Obama, who of course had other personal attack-surfaces.
posted by hexatron at 9:13 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


no, it's really about the patriarchy.
posted by zutalors! at 9:16 AM on October 6, 2016 [43 favorites]


Ari Berman: Texas’s Voter-Registration Laws Are Straight Out of the Jim Crow Playbook

Here's hoping for automatic voter registration. Hillary's been talking about it since 2015 and it's on her issues list.
posted by Francis at 9:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


There's another good line from Offerman, which taps into the conversation about multi-generational skills used to make things (and fix things) that can be handed down multiple generations, and whether people have the money and inclination to pay for them:
On one hand, I understand the dissatisfaction that has led to his selection. But, on the other hand, I have to say, if you're going to make a statement with your dissatisfaction, you really should've found a better representative of your desires.
So much of Trump's career is tied to stuff with no longevity, manifestations of a kind of pure present. The big construction projects levelled historic buildings; the Atlantic City casinos are gone; the various schemes of the past decade came and went; give it 20 years and there's a good chance his name will have been jemmied off everything he slapped it on.
posted by holgate at 9:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


/me reads ROU_Xenophobe's fantasy and quietly crumples up the rap he wrote for Hillary
posted by whuppy at 9:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's one thing I don't understand about The Wall:

A plane ticket from Mexico to the Southern U.S. probably costs, what, a couple of hundred bucks if you pick the right airports? Less?

Why wouldn't a lot of people who wanted to come in just, um, do that?
posted by kyrademon at 9:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm happy to have a follow-up to my whining the other week that Hillary was not running any game in Missouri. Just in time for October, they opened a campaign office in my town (Columbia, Missouri, which is a dark blue spot between the dark blue cities in an otherwise deep red state) and they're now regularly phonebanking. No door-to-door canvassing (yet) but they're here! That makes me happy. I know we're +10 for Trump, but it's important to have that national support because we have the chance to win some statewide races (yay Jason Kander!) and we need to GOTV!

On Saturday, I'm taking both my 2-year-old son and my 62-year-old mother out to canvas door-to-door for the statewide races. This will be the first time that either has volunteered for a political campaign, so I'm proud!

(You know, I did try to do phonebanking through Hillary's site, but it didn't include MO in the state dropdown list. I could select KS and other red states, but not MO. Anyone have an idea why? Do we have a law that doesn't allow it, maybe?)
posted by aabbbiee at 9:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [41 favorites]


aabbbiee glad to hear your two year old has quit slacking off and is getting into the campaign!
posted by zutalors! at 9:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]


Just in time for October, they opened a campaign office in my town (Columbia, Missouri, which is a dark blue spot between the dark blue cities in an otherwise deep red state) and they're now regularly phonebanking. No door-to-door canvassing (yet) but they're here! That makes me happy. I know we're +10 for Trump, but it's important to have that national support because we have the chance to win some statewide races (yay Jason Kander!) and we need to GOTV!

It also could suggest that Clinton's campaign or the Democratic congressional committees are confident enough to shift resources to even more long-shot states and focus on downticket races.

(I'd add that it could be a strategic move to force Trump to waste resources defending a Republican state, but his campaign's abysmal ground game suggests they aren't really paying attention, and I'd expect Team Clinton knows it well enough not to bother.)
posted by Gelatin at 9:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


A plane ticket from Mexico to the Southern U.S. probably costs, what, a couple of hundred bucks if you pick the right airports? Less?

Why wouldn't a lot of people who wanted to come in just, um, do that?

They do.
posted by Etrigan at 9:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Here's one thing I don't understand about The Wall:

A plane ticket from Mexico to the Southern U.S. probably costs, what, a couple of hundred bucks if you pick the right airports? Less?

Why wouldn't a lot of people who wanted to come in just, um, do that?

The US requires a visa for entry. There's a waiver program for 38 countries, but those are mostly european.
posted by mochapickle at 9:28 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Maine's Personal Trump | Full Frontal with Samantha Bee | TBS

More relevant than it sounds.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:30 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Does anybody know what's going on with the Clinton campaign in Texas?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:30 AM on October 6, 2016


I totally disagree with this. The reason the Clintons get so much crap flung at them is because they espouse a basically 1970s Republican platform. If they were leftier, they could, and would, be attacked for policy.

This is spot on. And it really gets to the heart of why Hillary Clinton was revered during Bill's first term. Her push for universal health care was so beloved that she became a leading light of the left-est parts of the Democratic party. Her insistence that every American deserved access to health care was enormously popular and her public image was never better. In fact, if only those pesky Republicans in Congress hadn't killed it, she probably could have primaried Bill in 1996 and become the first woman president 20 years earlier! It's still hard to fathom why her husband decided to move to the center to win re-election in 1996. That really opened him up to the kinds of personal attacks the Clintons only started getting that year.
posted by one_bean at 9:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [32 favorites]


I thought Trump had at one time had called for his wall to have a moat filled with alligators. But that was another GOP loony, Herman Cain. [in 2011]

On the Colbert Report back in 2014 -- while better-knowing Tammy Duckworth -- "Stephen Colbert" proposed a border wall with a flaming moat filled with fire-proof alligators.

I don't recall whether this was the first instance or not. He brought up this gag repeatedly over time, so I'm not sure when he initially saw Cain's moat and raised him "flaming-with-fireproof-alligators". But the idea, the absurd idea, and the OTT lampoon of the absurd idea all pre-date the current presidential election cycle and Trump's hijacking thereof.
 
posted by Herodios at 9:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


The main reason the wall is a ridiculous farce is that, yes, most illegal immigrants arrive via air. A lot of people overstay visas. The coyote thing is a popular narrative in the US media because it's cinematic and compelling.
posted by Sara C. at 9:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

Are bombs effective? Tune in next week as we send Monica Crowley to Pearl Harbor to find out!
posted by snofoam at 9:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's still hard to fathom why her husband decided to move to the center to win re-election in 1996.

In 1996? In 1992, he was advertising as a New Democrat who wanted people off welfare, supported the death penalty, balanced budgets, and cut spending.
posted by Etrigan at 9:39 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


The US requires a visa for entry. There's a waiver program for 38 countries, but those are mostly european.

Yes, and when your visa expires, you are automagically transported out of the country and your car turns back into a pumpkin.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:39 AM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


The main reason the wall is a ridiculous farce is that, yes, most illegal immigrants arrive via air.

Also parts of the border are on private property, divided by water, etc.
posted by zutalors! at 9:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm going to be off the grid for most of the long weekend, intentionally avoiding all TV and media until Sunday night. On Sunday night, my beloved New York Giants play the Green Bay Packers, in what is likely to be a beatdown of Reagan/Mondale proportions. The debate is on at the same time.

Dear AskPoliticalFilter: which viewing option is going to cause the lease psychic anguish? How much whiskey would I need to bring for each respective choice?
posted by Mayor West at 9:40 AM on October 6, 2016


Unless I've completely misread, I believe that one_bean is being extremely dryly sarcastic.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:44 AM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


HRC schwag delivery report: Ordered buttons on Sept. 12, received them Oct. 5. If you order something now, you might get it in time for the election. You might have better luck picking up items locally.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:46 AM on October 6, 2016


This revisionist history of the Clintons, as well as the argument that Hillary hasn't faced endless sexism and misogyny, is bizarre.
posted by agregoli at 9:48 AM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


In 1992, he was advertising as a New Democrat who wanted people off welfare, supported the death penalty, balanced budgets, and cut spending.

In 1992 his main primary opponent wasn't, as mythology has it, Paul Tsongas. But Jerry Brown who quite literally advocated for closing the Department of Education, instituting term limits, and setting a flat tax. Jerry Brown's economic advisor was Arthur Laffer. That Arthur Laffer.

Of course in 1992 the Democrats had held the White House for a grand total of four years since 1968. And that because of Watergate.
posted by Francis at 9:48 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


My google-fu is failing me here, maybe you all can help. Do you all remember during Obama's first run for president, that there was this amazing video clip of a union representative who had confronted open racism in his organization? I remember him describing hearing other union members being disdainful of electing a black man president. The speaker countered with something like, "Are you nuts?" and defended Obama as being far better for labor issues than McCain, and that voting for McCain would be voting directly against their self-interest. Can anyone find a link to that clip?

I've been thinking lately about that moment, that clear statement to drop the prejudice because shit was getting real--and on the lookout for similar watershed moments in this campaign. I see writings here and there from Guys Who Are Finally Getting It about the decades long right wing smear machine, once they actually go back and look at Clinton's record, but haven't seen a standout recording quite like that one.
posted by Sublimity at 9:52 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


> This revisionist history of the Clintons, as well as the argument that Hillary hasn't faced endless sexism and misogyny, is bizarre.

Alas, if only the W3C had approved the {sarcasm} tag.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


AFL-CIO's Richard Trumka on Racism and Obama
posted by readery at 9:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump’s own bankruptcy lawyers say he lies so much they could only meet with him in pairs
posted by zombieflanders at 9:58 AM on October 6, 2016 [36 favorites]


> Trump’s own bankruptcy lawyers say he lies so much they could only meet with him in pairs

This is [real], hysterically funny, and deeply disturbing.

“We tried to [meet in pairs] with Donald always if we could because Donald says certain things and then has a lack of memory,” he says in the deposition.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:02 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Anyone else having trouble seeing the tacos referenced above? Or just me?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:03 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pope Guilty: Does anybody know what's going on with the Clinton campaign in Texas?

There's not a ton of coverage, but here's a month of news:

Sept 6, 2016 -- Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are locked in a dead heat in Texas, according to a new 50-state survey conducted by The Washington Post and the online polling concern, Survey Monkey.
...
Texas political scientists and pollsters counseled caution in reading the results, suggesting that it remains very unlikely that Texas will be in the Democratic column this November. (Statesman)

Sept. 8, 2016 -- Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign and the Democratic National Committee will soon be opening offices in Texas, stoking Democrats’ long-shot hopes of making the Lone Star State competitive in the presidential election. (My Statesman)

Sept. 22, 2016 -- Democrat Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is set to open a campaign headquarters in North Texas this weekend. According to sources, the Clinton campaign office will open Saturday on Walnut Hill Lane in Dallas. Mrs. Clinton will not be in attendance. (Dallas/Fort Worth CBS Local)

Sept. 28, 2016 -- Democratic National Committee Expands Presence in Texas. The Democratic National Committee is expanding its presence in Texas as polls continue to show a closer-than-usual presidential race in the solidly red state.
...
Polls have been showing an unusually close race in Texas, with Republican nominee Donald Trump leading Clinton by only single digits in most surveys. The past two GOP presidential nominees, Mitt Romney and John McCain, carried the state by 16 and 12 points, respectively. (Texas Tribune)

Oct 5, 2016 -- Clinton leads Trump in Houston-area donations (Houston Chronicle)

538 still shows Texas a strongly Trump territory, and PEC is showing Texas as bright red.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


Also parts of the border are on private property, divided by water, etc.

AND ALSO THERE IS A FOUR THOUSAND MILE UNDEFENDED BORDER TO THE NORTH AND THOUSANDS OF MILES OF COASTLINE TO THE EAST AND WEST

Unless Trump is planning to take over the Canada Border Services Agency as well and make Ottawa pay for it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:06 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks a bunch, FLT!
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:06 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Unfortunately, it looks like Trump might have learned something from Prince's performance: He's saying he won't bring up Bill's infidelity at the next debate.

But he will keep talking about how he didn't bring it up and wow isn't he the classiest bravest guy for not bringing it up, not like Hillary who is so meeeaaaan to him.

Dunno what The Purple One has to do with this, but we rhetors call this apophasis. It's a pretty well-know rhetorical device and very popular in political speechifying through the years as a way of making ad hominem attacks while maintaining plausible deniabilty that you're doing so.

The classic example is "I will not make an election issue of my opponent's arrest record. Nor do I consider the reports of his being caught sniffing bicycle seats downtown relevant to this debate."

It can be used positively. I'm no Reagan fan, but his "I am not going to make an issue of my opponent's youth and inexperience" was bloody brilliant and I hope whoever told him to say that as well paid.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:07 AM on October 6, 2016 [23 favorites]


538 still shows Texas a strongly Trump territory, and PEC is showing Texas as bright red.

And both will continue to do so even if Hillary is on course to win the state. The trick is that Hillary doesn't win it by conversions but by running an amazing Voter Registration/Get Out The Vote operation especially among hispanic voters in Texas. It will be an operation for the ages - you just don't change that many non-voters into voters, and no reputable pollster will ever assume it is going to happen. But if anyone can Hillary can.
posted by Francis at 10:09 AM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


The classic example is "I will not make an election issue of my opponent's arrest record. Nor do I consider the reports of his being caught sniffing bicycle seats downtown relevant to this debate."

One of the best radio bits from Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines was the sequence of political ads that plays throughout the game:
Last year Democratic candidate Michael Redmonds bought a sport utility vehicle. Three month later there were two seperate incidences of hit-and-runs by an unidentified SUV in his area. Is Democratic candidate Michael Redmonds to blame? Can you afford to take that chance? Can your children? Vote Republican Senator Robert Thorn, a candidate that has never committed vehicular homicide.

Democratic candidate Michael Redmonds has never publicly stated his opinion on child pornography. Is it because he is hiding something? Would you want a child pornographer voting on this nation's laws? Would you trust your children's future to someone like that? Vote Republican Senator Robert Thorn, the candidate that is committed to locking up child pornographers.

Democratic candidate Michael Redmonds recently sued Senator Robert Thorn for accusing Redmonds of being a murderous child pornographer. But Redmonds had previously said he was against clogging up courts with frivolous lawsuits. Wouldn't this make him a hypocrite? Would you want a hypocrite as your next congressman? Would you want your children to become hypocrites? Vote Republican Senator Robert Thorn, a candidate not accused of being a murderous child pornographer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [33 favorites]


I mean, the Great Wall of Trump will be manned right? What do we think will happen to attempted encroachers? They'll be politely turned around and sent back the other direction with a postcard?
posted by T.D. Strange

Border Patrol will probably outsource guarding the wall to some non-union shop, who will hire perma-temps and advertise via postcard.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


“We tried to [meet in pairs] with Donald always if we could because Donald says certain things and then has a lack of memory,” he says in the deposition.

Yeah, I'm waiting for Owen Ellickson (@onlxn) to do a Trump Leaks scene on these lawyers who have actually found it necessary to have protective measures in place to stop their OWN CLIENT gaslighting them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Hello. My father killed JFK and I'd like to talk to you about Donald Trump"
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


And being male didn't help Kerry much. Or Obama

lolololololol 99.9 percent of EVERYBODY who likes Obama on personal grounds shamelessly and publicly fantasizes about him being their pretend dad or their pretend husband or their pretend fun dude buddy. He might have still won if he were a woman because anything is possible but he would never on this earth or any alternate earth be the beloved superman-posing, basketball-playing, dad-jean-wearing, object of groveling worship for kissing babies and saying he's a feminist that he is, were he not a man. My old white conservative born and bred mother voted for Obama with a song in her heart and admitted it to me out loud, such is the pull of his good old solid masculinity.

think about what you are saying for half a second, please. People fucking adore Obama in and for all his manliness, they do it explicitly and shamelessly and they feel real good about it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:14 AM on October 6, 2016 [58 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Tearing the NFL Apart
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:14 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


@wilw: When you pick up the phone, and it's Ted Cruz calling on behalf of Voldetrump.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


It can be used positively. I'm no Reagan fan, but his "I am not going to make an issue of my opponent's youth and inexperience" was bloody brilliant and I hope whoever told him to say that as well paid.

Roger Ailes usually is given credit for that:
According to Gabriel Sherman’s 2014 book on Ailes, “The Loudest Voice in the Room,” Ailes played a crucial role before Reagan’s second debate with former Vice President Walter F. Mondale in 1984. During a prep session, he asked Reagan, who had performed badly in the first debate, how he would handle being asked about his age.

The question came quickly, and Reagan’s answer, which went down in the annals of witty debate lines, effectively quashed the subject: “I will not make age an issue of this campaign,” he said. “I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.”
posted by peeedro at 10:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dunno what The Purple One has to do with this, but we rhetors call this apophasis. It's a pretty well-know rhetorical device and very popular in political speechifying through the years as a way of making ad hominem attacks while maintaining plausible deniabilty that you're doing so.

I'm getting kind of tired of all this gape-jawed amazement at how Trump is using these ancient rhetorical techniques! of manipulative wonder! with unprecedentedly incredible power! It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!

Nope, it's just rhetoric. He's glib, everyone grants him that. We've had glib people around before. He's not even that rhetorically gifted, just has a special level of shamelessness that allows him to say things which most politicians, even evil Mike Pence types, can't get away with because some leftover piece of their mostly-asphyxiated soul manages to muster the breath to shut the lies down for a brief moment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


The main reason the wall is a ridiculous farce is that, yes, most illegal immigrants arrive via air.

Also parts of the border are on private property, divided by water, etc.

Adam Conover had a really good episode of Adam Ruins Everything that covered immigration, and these were two of the main points. I highly recommend it.

The Wall segment (Entire Episode)
posted by zakur at 10:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Las Vegas local TV h/t TPM : "Trump: My Past Insults About Women Were All For ‘Entertainment’"

Presumably his, not ours.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm going to be off the grid for most of the long weekend, intentionally avoiding all TV and media until Sunday night. On Sunday night, my beloved New York Giants play the Green Bay Packers, in what is likely to be a beatdown of Reagan/Mondale proportions. The debate is on at the same time.

Dear AskPoliticalFilter: which viewing option is going to cause the lease psychic anguish? How much whiskey would I need to bring for each respective choice?

Our plan is for me to have the debate on my laptop, and MrGood will have the game on with the sound muted on his. He will watch the game, keep me updated, and listen to the debate; I will watch and listen to the debate.

As to the psychic anguish, I'm looking forward to both things, but then, I'm a Packers fan.
posted by chaoticgood at 10:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


As I've pointed out on my blog, over the past twenty-some years violent crime is way down in the four states bordering Mexico and up in six of the states bordering Canada.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Hello. My father killed JFK and I'd like to talk to you about Donald Trump"

"... a man I said has made the "textbook" definition of racist comments, whose remarks I have absolutely disavowed. And if you have any questions about my decision to share a stage with Trump, they should be directed to the Trump campaign."

[True, but seguing comments from the past with statements from the past few days]

“All questions related to Mr. Trump should be directed to the Trump campaign” translates to "I can't keep up with his BS, and I may not actually support anything he says or does, so if you have questions about what he said or did, please ask his campaign spinners."

Glowing support there, iron man.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:30 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm getting kind of tired of all this gape-jawed amazement at how Trump is using these ancient rhetorical techniques!

That's an unfair characterization of Herodios's comment.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:30 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


> Trump’s own bankruptcy lawyers say he lies so much they could only meet with him in pairs . . .

“We tried to [meet in pairs] with Donald always if we could because Donald says certain things and then has a lack of memory,” he says in the deposition.

This is reminding me of stories from the 1990s of the attempts by under-financed groups to clean up radioactively contaminated materials by hand*.

To limit their exposure, they'd set out a lead lined isolation box a safe distance from a contaminated item and take turns grabbing it and dragging or carrying it toward the box for a few seconds, then running away. Then the next operator does the same until with the second-to-last turn, it's dropped inside. Then at last, a volunteer runs up to the box and closes the lid. Wait the proscribed period of time and repeat for the next contaminated shoe or spanner.

Maybe that's what they're doing -- sharing the risk to limit exposure to toxic Trump radiation.

-----------------------
* Before and during the 2000 election, Al Gore was very engaged by these activities and had pledged to increase US funding and US involvement in cleaning up loose nukes -- another peace dividend squandered by the Bush administration. Thanks, Ralph.
posted by Herodios at 10:32 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


dances_with_sneetches: over the past twenty-some years violent crime is way down in the four states bordering Mexico and up in six of the states bordering Canada.

This is also a national trend, but I'd say reporting on violent crime is way up (but it's hard to find articles on crime reporting compared to actual crime).
posted by filthy light thief at 10:34 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


“We tried to [meet in pairs] with Donald always if we could because Donald says certain things and then has a lack of memory,” he says in the deposition.

holy god I've worked for people like this and it is so unpleasant.
posted by winna at 10:34 AM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


“All questions related to Mr. Trump should be directed to the Trump campaign” translates to "I can't keep up with his BS, and I may not actually support anything he says or does, so if you have questions about what he said or did, please ask his campaign spinners."

It also reveals that Republican leaders don't actually believe in a "liberal media," as Ryan and McConnell appears to be confident -- sadly, with good reason -- that the media will let them get away with saying "we don't want to discuss the person who will be signing the laws we pass."

Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 10:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is reminding me of stories from the 1990s of the attempts by under-financed groups to clean up radioactively contaminated materials by hand . . . *.

Sorry, sorry: that should have ended with

" . . . in the former Soviet Union."
 
posted by Herodios at 10:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry, I didn't mean that comment to be in opposition to herodios's comment at all; if anything I thought my comment was along the same lines, pointing out that Trump isn't doing some new amazing thing. I'm more annoyed with the breathlessness of people like MeFi's Own Scott Adams and other arguments of that ilk, that Trump is somehow an unstoppable master persuader juggernaut. What that does is give cover for racists and their sympathizers and apologists to say "Oh, it's not racism/mysogyny that's propelling Trump, it's just that he's the best with words". He isn't.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


HRC schwag delivery report: Ordered buttons on Sept. 12, received them Oct. 5.

I ordered a shirt, a woman card, and some postcards on July 27 and STILL haven't seen 'em. :(
posted by Andrhia at 10:43 AM on October 6, 2016


@SimonMaloy: RYAN: no endorsement
TRUMP: [racist Curiel attack]
RYAN: I'll endorse but not campaign
TRUMP: [fat-shames Machado]
RYAN: let's hit the trail
posted by chris24 at 10:49 AM on October 6, 2016 [57 favorites]


Sorry, I didn't mean that comment to be in opposition to herodios's comment at all . . . I'm more annoyed with arguments that Trump is somehow an unstoppable master persuader juggernaut. . . . he's the best with words" . . .

OK. But I'm not seeing these particular claims being made about Trump.

We certainly saw such claims in the 1980s about Reagan, the "Great Communicator" [*snort*] , but I've seen no such about Trump.

I've seen more the sort of excuse-making we saw on behalf of Bush II. Sort of, "he didn't say what he meant, here's the Trump - English translation."
 
posted by Herodios at 10:49 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


OK. But I'm not seeing these particular claims being made about Trump.

Scott Adams, sub-mediocre cartoonist and purported sex hypnotist, believes Trump is a master persuader.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:52 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

Oh for....

What did the Berlin wall accomplish? It was a moral failure. It came to symbolize—epitomize even—the failure of Communism by its very existence. It did. not. work. And in the end, the border it protected was completely erased.

Bah. Republicans these days—unwitting accelerationists, driving to build icons to their worst ideas.
posted by Wilbefort at 10:53 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Anyone else having trouble seeing the tacos referenced above? Or just me?

I keep checking my app, but no tacos :(
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I know the Clinton campaign is heavily data-driven, but A/B testing tacos vs no tacos seems like a stretch even for them.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Indiana Sen - Bayh +1
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:57 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


My father and I canoed 350 miles of the Rio Grande through the Big Bend area when I was 12. It was magnificent and barren and rugged and blew my 12 year old mind. What blows my 48 year old mind is this know-nothing threatening the wilderness, animals, ecosystem and peoples of that area and the other thousand plus miles to accomplish such a pointless and evil goal.
posted by thebrokedown at 10:57 AM on October 6, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump’s use of debts and tax laws spurs concerns about his methods [WaPo]:
After Clinton accused Trump of taking unfair advantage of the tax code, Trump said at a campaign rally on Tuesday, “She complains about how I’ve used tax laws of this country to my benefit. Then I ask a simple question: Why didn’t she ever try to change those laws so I couldn’t use them?”

She did. After the Supreme Court in an 8-to-1 vote upheld the “double dip” loophole in 2001, Congress the next year voted to disallow it. Then-Sen. Clinton was among those who voted it down.
Maybe if Donald didn't lie to his lawyers constantly, one of them could have told him not to ask questions you don't know the answer to.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:01 AM on October 6, 2016 [69 favorites]


Why didn’t she ever try to change those laws so I couldn’t use them?

Investigators found scrawled on the wall STOP ME BEFORE I DEDUCT AGAIN.
posted by Etrigan at 11:05 AM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


Saw 5 Trump bumper stickers on my commute this morning (4/5 on big-ass jacked-up pickups). RIP my pint of hipster ice cream from the local joint.
posted by stolyarova at 11:10 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump’s use of debts and tax laws spurs concerns about his methods

Those aren't the only Trump methods raising concerns.
posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on October 6, 2016


Why didn’t she ever try to change those laws so I couldn’t use them?
Easy: “What happened?”
Mouse: “I had no time to be tying him up, Easy.”
Easy: “What?”
Mouse: “You just said don’t shoot him, right?”
Easy: “That’s right.”
Mouse: “Well, I didn’t, I just — I choked him.”
Easy: “What?”
Mouse: “Well, how am I gonna help you out if I’m back here fooling around with him now? Easy, look, if you ain’t want him killed, why did you leave him with me?”
posted by phearlez at 11:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


(well, ok, half a pint, and it was Home Means Nevada, a revelatory combination of sage and pine nut, so can you really blame me?)
posted by stolyarova at 11:12 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: "At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."

GOP 1986: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

GOP: 2016: "Berlin Wall. That's some good thinkin'."

(Ms. Crowley, did you talk to the devil?)
posted by octobersurprise at 11:13 AM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


well, ok, half a pint, and it was Home Means Nevada

Weird name for an ice cream flavor. How does one pronounce it?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:14 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


How does one pronounce it?

Hoh-MAY meeyans NeVAHduh, obvs.

The giant lifted aggressively-driven coal-rolling pickups with the Trump stickers are perpetrating low-grade terrorism, in my opinion, as the driver of a tiny car with a STOP BIGOTRY sticker on the bumper. :(
posted by stolyarova at 11:16 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


shooting anyone who tried to cross the wall, which I honestly didn't believe the Republican Party was yet depraved enough to endorse.

Bad news, chief. Joe Arapio on line 1.
posted by petebest at 11:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


(to clarify, and because it's funny: the big sagebrush is literally Nevada's state flower, and pine nuts are a local treasure and a historically vital food for the Washoe tribe, so sage + pine nut = Nevada <3)
posted by stolyarova at 11:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


...can I volunteer to pick-pack-ship at the Hillary warehouse? I am really good at it. They obviously need help (if it's not a supply-side problem.)
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:19 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Easy, look, if you ain’t want him killed, why did you leave him with me?

Loved the book, loved the movie, loved every scene Don Cheadle was in.
posted by kingless at 11:20 AM on October 6, 2016


Scott Adams, sub-mediocre cartoonist and purported sex hypnotist, believes Trump is a master persuader.

And it's not just Scott Adams -- there've been numerous think pieces along this line, for instance, this from a writer on ThinkProgress: Donald Trump May Sound Like A Clown, But He Is A Rhetoric Pro Like Cicero. Now, I do think these lines of inquiry are intellectually interesting, and they may even be of some limited value in analyzing how Trump has built some part of his support.

But when we say that Trump is doing some kind of virtually irresistible, almost hypnotic level persuasion, we're:
(a) attributing power to Trump that he does not have,
(b) denying the human agency and the moral responsibility of the people who are supporting Trump and
(c) sidestepping the core causes of his candidacy -- white supremacy, misogyny and a political elite that has spent forty years marshalling and training the forces of backlash into an effective voting bloc to support economic conservatism.
As we saw in the VP debate, the path forward for the conservative movement post-Trump is clear: ignore, deflect, deny, move on.

After November 9, we will need to keep reminding ourselves that 2016 was not a failure of rhetoric, not merely a loophole that someone skillfully exploited. 2016 is an indictment of our democratic institutions, particularly the Republican Party's institutions but also of our whole government which has been hamstrung by hard obstructionism for six years now and has been slowly giving up on its responsibilities for nearly 40 years. It is an indictment of our media institutions. It is an indictment of our collective refusal to acknowledge that black and brown lives matter.

We can't allow conservatives to wash this stain from the national conscience, but I don't know how to stop it from happening.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [26 favorites]


["Dead" not "devil" - Ed.]
posted by octobersurprise at 11:23 AM on October 6, 2016


If Trump is such a master persuader, skilled in the use of English...

...why is he so fucking bad at persuading people who aren't white?

I am sure I know the answer his supporters would give you but it's not one I'm willing to repeat.
posted by phearlez at 11:25 AM on October 6, 2016


(to clarify, and because it's funny: the big sagebrush is literally Nevada's state flower, and pine nuts are a local treasure and a historically vital food for the Washoe tribe, so sage + pine nut = Nevada <3)

Also, "Home Means Nevada" is the official state song.
posted by Etrigan at 11:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


The two (white, working class, non-college-educated) ladies in cubicles outside my office are talking about "Shrillary."

There is not nearly enough chocolate in arm's reach.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


The trick is that Hillary doesn't win it by conversions but by running an amazing Voter Registration/Get Out The Vote operation especially among hispanic voters in Texas.

I don't think Texas delivers that kind of shock, but registration and GOTV in a presidential year ought to establish the kind of contact database and volunteer network that -- with the right sustained work -- can pay off in years to come, especially down the ballot. It's a kind of census of the party's support.
posted by holgate at 11:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


That too!
posted by stolyarova at 11:26 AM on October 6, 2016


I think it's very tempting to want to attribute Trump's support to some kind of great rhetorical skill on his part, to want to believe that he's uniquely captivating people in a way few others can. Because if we maintain that illusion, we can pretend the next racist buffoon who manages to get people to pay attention to him won't be just as successful.
posted by zachlipton at 11:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


@MonicaCrowley: 'At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work.'

Just to reiterate, that tweet IS from 2015, but made after Trump's declaration of intent to run for POTUS. It was extremely dumb then, and remains so.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:26 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Trump is such a master persuader, why does he have to lie so much? Why would Mike Pence decide he has to lie for him?
posted by Gelatin at 11:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Trump is such a master persuader, why does he have to lie so much?

A lot of persuasion is selling lies.
posted by Etrigan at 11:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


registration and GOTV in a presidential year ought to establish the kind of contact database and volunteer network that -- with the right sustained work -- can pay off in years to come, especially down the ballot.

Or in off-year elections. Democrats badly need to put resources into turning out the vote for Congressional races, not to mention state and local contests, rather than just Presidential seasons.
posted by Gelatin at 11:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Trump is such a master persuader, skilled in the use of English...

...why is he so fucking bad at persuading people who aren't white?

Exactly. One either has to believe that we are craven suckers-at-the-teat-of-mother-government who just love taking advantage of the nice white people who actually make this country great, or that we are subhuman sheeple that are unable to respond to Trump's siren call because we're already lashed to the mast of the Democratic ship.

Or both, I guess. We could be both.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:31 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


If Mr Trump is going to keep not-discussing Bill Clinton's infidelity, I think Ms Clinton should consider bringing up the subject in reference to something like women's issues. She'd be able to frame the issue as one of Trump's weaknesses, respectfully bringing up Ivana's rape allegations and Donald's serial infidelity. The experience of having a woman attacking him would likely expose his baser instincts of fighting back. When he does attack, he can target Bill's infidelity (which would be discordant since Mr Trump should be answering attacks on his own behavior) or he can respond with some of the crazier Vince-Foster-affair type allegation that are out there. Either way, it makes him look worse.

Anyway, that's how the Lee Atwater/Karl Rove/Niccolo Macchiavelli part of me thinks...
posted by Emmy Noether at 11:32 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


But when we say that Trump is doing some kind of virtually irresistible, almost hypnotic level persuasion

Don't confuse identifying what he's doing with ascribing some kind of superpower to it. You can't open your mouth without uttering something the ancient Greeks long ago had a category for, is all.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


If Trump is such a master persuader, skilled in the use of English...

...why is he so fucking bad at persuading people who aren't white?

I think the better answer is that he's not really persuasive at all, there are just a lot more white people who don't like brown people willing to admit it these days.

No kidding.

Trump does not use these techniques consciously. Any similarity is by accident. It's not like he's sat down, studied them and thought hey I should talk like these old philosophical dudes say. He's just figured out from example (like his Dad) and through experience that what he does works with some people. And in this election he's just taken those things, +eleventied them and gathered more people. He is not a rhetorical master. A master would be able to change up what he's doing and saying when necessary. He's shown time and time again that he cannot do that.
posted by Jalliah at 11:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


This thread moves super-fast! Thank you, readery, for the link to Trumpka's AFL-CIO talk.
posted by Sublimity at 11:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton debate prep is focused on what happens once the debate is done:
...Clinton and Kaine had a larger goal in mind than winning the debates themselves: to create a series of compelling sound bites that they planned to weaponize for the reminder of the campaign. They logged scores of hours of preparation. They recited laundry lists of Trump’s faults. Their clear objective: to record him and his running mate embracing, denying or evading controversial positions that Trump has taken in recorded speeches.
...
“[Pence] claimed over and over and over again — he claimed, ‘He never said those things!’ ” exclaimed conservative radio host Glenn Beck on Wednesday. “We’re not living in the 1800s. We can go back to the clips on YouTube.”
posted by kirkaracha at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [50 favorites]


This thread moves super-fast!

are you kidding I was sitting here for almost two minutes without any new grist for my brain mill ;_;
posted by stolyarova at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


A lot of persuasion is selling lies.

But it's pretty clear that only about 40% of the population is buying it. And it is a truth almost universally acknowledged that Trump did say pretty much everything Mike Pence denied him saying.

It also relates to a point I've made about Republican politics in general -- if Republican policies were actually popular and effective, they wouldn't need to resort to the deceptive and reality-denying tactics they so often do. Trump has been a gift to the Democrats in that he's basically forced the media to acknowledge that he lies. I hope Democrats follow up by planting the question of why.
posted by Gelatin at 11:39 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump is an effective orator in the same way Matthew Reilly is an effective writer. He's not very good, but makes up for his lack of quality by being overwhelmingly intense.
posted by jackbishop at 11:39 AM on October 6, 2016


Their clear objective: to record him and his running mate embracing, denying or evading controversial positions that Trump has taken in recorded speeches.

It's a canny strategy for a situation where anything Clinton says is by definition regarded as false by conservative-media-bubble viewers -- video of Trump saying the stuff himself is key.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


She'd be able to frame the issue as one of Trump's weaknesses, respectfully bringing up Ivana's rape allegations and Donald's serial infidelity.

Nope. "When they go low, we go high." The candidate can say "the best way to judge Donald is to look closely at how Donald has treated other people throughout his life" and that will suffice. Leave others to fill in the blanks.
posted by holgate at 11:41 AM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


or him in bed with putin and a bear.
YOU LEAVE MY IN-LAWS OUT OF THIS
posted by pxe2000 at 11:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


(Ms. Crowley, did you talk to the devil?)

As a Supernatural fan, this is hilarious.
posted by numaner at 11:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


In fact I would go as far as to say Paul Ryan is an actual threat to the republic in a way that Trump merely distracts us from.

Ed Kilgore: Paul Ryan Is Planning a Revolution, and It Starts in January
One major reason congressional Republicans conducted this dry run was to set a precedent that reconciliation could be used for seemingly non-budget items like repealing key elements of the Affordable Care Act (notably the individual mandate and purchasing subsidies). The GOP-appointed Senate parliamentarian, ostensibly the traffic cop whose job it is to stop non-germane riders, waved it on through. Democrats can whine about it, but if the GOP wins the trifecta in November, they will not be able to do a thing. So a future reconciliation bill would not only cripple Obamacare and strip millions of Americans of health coverage obtained via the exchanges, but also kill the Medicaid expansion and throw millions more out of coverage. Indeed, there is zero reason to think it would not include turning the original Medicaid program into a block grant to the states (probably along with the food-stamp program), as both Trump and congressional Republicans have proposed, while implementing Ryan’s own controversial plan to voucherize Medicare.

Those are just a few nasty features we can expect on the spending side of the budget. On the tax side, the only problem Republicans will face is cutting a deal with Trump on the relatively few differences between their tax schemes and his.
[...]
Ryan may have conducted his explainer yesterday in order to get the word out to wavering Republican opinion-leaders that even though there are risks in placing Trump in the Oval Office, there’s a huge payoff as well that he can point to with considerable specificity. But it should be a warning to Democrats as well, and something that with imagination and persistence they can convey to those critical progressives who are meh about voting for Hillary Clinton and don’t think the identity of the president much matters. Even if you think Clinton is a centrist sellout or a Wall Street puppet, she’s not going to sign legislation throwing tens of millions of people out of their health coverage, abolishing inheritance taxes and giving top earners still more tax benefits, shredding the safety net, killing Planned Parenthood funding, and so on through Ryan’s whole abominable list of reactionary delights. If Democrats think a scenario so complicated that it’s lulled the press to sleep cannot be explained to regular voters, maybe they should break out the hand puppets. There is no more urgent and galvanizing message available to them.
Keep in mind that this has the enthusiastic support of almost every conservatives, even those that aren't supporting Trump, and it all started well before he even ran. Ryan earned his nickname "zombie-eyed granny starver" many years ago, but "actual threat to the republic" (at least as we know it) is also actually pretty accurate.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [30 favorites]


“[Pence] claimed over and over and over again — he claimed, ‘He never said those things!’ ” exclaimed conservative radio host Glenn Beck on Wednesday. “We’re not living in the 1800s. We can go back to the clips on YouTube.”

I know it's probably against the debate rules and all, but Kaine could have won the year if he pulled a phone out of his pocket and said "Governor, would you like me to show you how to find it on YouTube?"
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


or something.

Or a minority of electoral votes.
posted by drezdn at 11:43 AM on October 6, 2016


Hardly anyone watched the veep debates; consequently I am much more confident in the strategy of having Kaine self-sacrifice in the name of the broader media campaign. These guys really do know their shit.
posted by xyzzy at 11:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


A banner touting Vladimir Putin as a "peacemaker" has been hung from the Manhattan Bridge.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:47 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


further developments in White Stripes-related election news: Jack White's record label is now selling this t-shirt
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:48 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Well that's a weird surprise, and it's October...
posted by zachlipton at 11:49 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump looks to the West for salvation (links to composite polls added):
Donald Trump pledged that his appeal to working-class whites would put new states in play, opening an electoral path to 270 votes that ran through the Rust Belt. But with five weeks to go and new polling showing Pennsylvania and Michigan out of reach and Hillary Clinton eating into his lead in Ohio, the Republican nominee is blazing a trail across the West.
...
Trump on Wednesday finished a three-day swing through Colorado, Arizona and Nevada, drawing large crowds of mostly white voters.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:50 AM on October 6, 2016


large crowds of mostly white voters.

well, he kicks out the minorities.
posted by zutalors! at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


A banner touting Vladimir Putin as a "peacemaker" has been hung from the Manhattan Bridge.

pisstaker
posted by defenestration at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2016


Trump on Wednesday finished a three-day swing through Colorado, Arizona and Nevada

...which, combined, don't have the electoral votes of Florida.
posted by Gelatin at 11:54 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


A banner touting Vladimir Putin as a "peacemaker" has been hung from the Manhattan Bridge.

This election is full of the random and bizzare. The way my brain reacts is just 'wtf' and I start laughing.
posted by Jalliah at 11:55 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Colorado and Nevada both went for Obama in 2012, and Sam Wang currently has them both leaning Clinton. On the other hand, Arizona went Republican in 2012 and doesn't look like a toss-up now. Why is Trump wasting his time there?
posted by Gelatin at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2016


Since this thread was formally about the VP debate (remember that?), this piece by Kevin Drum is worth a link: Tim Kaine Never Really Cared About "Winning" His Debate.

"Kaine's over-aggressive style didn't make him look good on Tuesday, but Kaine didn't care. He was willing to take one for the team. Unlike Mike Pence, who resolutely refused to defend his boss, Kaine understood that the purpose of his debate wasn't to make Tim Kaine look good. It was to help Hillary Clinton win an election. ...

Mr. Trump has already slipped perceptibly in public polls, trailing widely this week in Pennsylvania and by smaller margins in Florida and North Carolina — three states he cannot afford to lose. But private polling by both parties shows an even more precipitous drop, especially among independent voters, moderate Republicans and women, according to a dozen strategists [anon, discussing confidential data]."

(Actually both quoted bits are excerpts from other articles, but they are tasty and delicious.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Why is Trump wasting his time there?

Northern NV (Douglas County, at least) is very red. Reno has had at least three pro-Trump incidences of vandalism in the past three months.

He has a receptive audience of assholes here.
posted by stolyarova at 12:00 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Colorado and Nevada both went for Obama in 2012, and Sam Wang currently has them both leaning Clinton. On the other hand, Arizona went Republican in 2012 and doesn't look like a toss-up now. Why is Trump wasting his time there?

My bet is that there are people on his campaign that have half a brain and know what's up but they have a candidate that loses his mind when he is called a loser. So they're telling him and other about 'chances' (no matter how remote) or some said off hand while Trump was in earshot there was a chance and they're pretty much humoring him so he doesn't go ba - donkers before the debates are done.
posted by Jalliah at 12:02 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


PENCE: Donald Trump never said that.

KAINE: Roll 212.

PENCE: What?

KAINE: Once this is over we're going to have a great video with clips of Trump saying things contrasted with clips of you denying it. It'll be great and I'm just helping them know which clips to use. I certainly wouldn't have brought those things up if we didn't have video to back it up.

PENCE: ...

*somewhere in the distance, a rooster crows*

[fake]
posted by ckape at 12:05 PM on October 6, 2016 [36 favorites]


A clock running backwards is right four times a day.

Tsk, presumes a machine in failure state is operating at the same speed as it would be if working properly. 10 points from Gryffindork.
posted by phearlez at 12:06 PM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


KAINE: Roll 212.

I imagine that there are HRC staffers recording the debates with timestamps, and furiously writing down notes while it's happening to get those response videos up as soon as possible after the debates are done.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:09 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump on Wednesday finished a three-day swing through Colorado, Arizona and Nevada, drawing large crowds of mostly white voters.

Well, he can bill the TrumpVegas for those trips. And I think Trump going to deep-red bits of Arizona is more "because he's there" than anything else -- he knows he can fill a biggish venue there, and he likes that.
posted by holgate at 12:09 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]



Does anybody know what's going on with the Clinton campaign in Texas?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:30 AM on October 6 [+] [!]

As mentioned in the previous thread, I'm doing some "chase calling" for registered Democrats in Texas, most of whom are seniors. More than one has told me that they mailed their ballots as soon as they received them, and men and women alike are pleasingly enthusiastic for Hillary.

I'm asking them all if they will vote for the downballot candidates, and most have said they already did that.

Anecdata, of course, but making a few calls every day stops me gnawing my fingers to bloody stumps, and who knows? Maybe we can turn at least some of the Texas races in the right direction.
posted by vickyverky at 12:13 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Donald Trump's spokeswoman Katrina Pierson on Muslim ban: “So What? They’re Muslim!”
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:15 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Randy Rainbow Moderates the 2016 VP Debate
posted by kirkaracha at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


"[O]ur new research suggests that evangelical voters’ views of Trump probably have much less to do with him personally than with his rhetoric on abortion and his promises to protect Christianity in America."

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. “All this I will give You," he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”


Trump's Offer to Christians Is Same Offer Devil Made Christ
I know the editors of CP to be good evangelical Christians, but they made the same mistake many evangelicals are liable to make. They said they were actually tempted by Trump's offer to "Vote for me, and I will give you Supreme Court picks and abolish the Johnson Amendment."

Trump's "tempting" offer is remarkably like another made two millennia ago … when the Devil offered Jesus the power to rule over all the kingdoms of the world with justice and mercy, if only Christ would bow down to the Devil. American Christians should not take a deal Jesus rejected.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2016 [91 favorites]


Northern NV (Douglas County, at least) is very red.

But Nevada went Democratic in 2008 and 2012, and Sam Wang and 538 both show it leaning blue this year as well. (And hoo boy, Pennsylvania does look hopeless!) We're seeing the fatal flaw in Trump's strategy -- as predicted by the Republicans themselves in 2012 -- that small groups of fired-up white voters likely can't outweigh the larger population trend.

Not to mention, Clinton could lose all three of Nevada, Arizona and Colorado and still cruise to a 300+EV victory. The Western states just don't have the population to offset Clinton victories in Florida and Pennsylvania. Even losing Ohio wouldn't matter.
posted by Gelatin at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2016


Clinton expands Michigan lead to 11 points:
Hillary Clinton has regained a double-digit lead over Donald Trump in Michigan, according to a Detroit Free Press/WXYZ-TV poll released Thursday morning.

Clinton is leading by 11 points, 43 to 32 percent. The same poll found less than a month ago that Clinton was leading by just 3 points.
But, yeah, sure, economic anxiety/NAFTA/manufacturing is why people support Trump.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:18 PM on October 6, 2016 [26 favorites]


I imagine that there are HRC staffers recording the debates with timestamps, and furiously writing down notes while it's happening to get those response videos up as soon as possible after the debates are done.

I know a guy from high school who spent a few months as some sort of intern for the Clinton campaign back during the primaries, and when I asked what sort of stuff they had him doing one of the things he mentioned was spending hours watching tape, 'time-stamping stuff'. He was maddeningly vague about who or what or why, but I'd imagine that someone very similar to him is doing exactly what you describe, but for all appearances by Trump, and probably his spokespeople too, if they have the time.
posted by neonrev at 12:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Northern NV (Douglas County, at least) is very red.

But Nevada went Democratic in 2008 and 2012, and Sam Wang and 538 both show it leaning blue this year as well.

I think stolyarova's point was that he wants the crowds to applaud him, not that he actually cares about winning and/or knows how to win.
posted by Etrigan at 12:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


> With the way his mind seems to work just having the thought in is head 'Must not do this, should not say this, don't do this.." heightens the chance of a 'blurrrg' to release the pressure. He can't handle being told not to do things that he really wants to do.

So an hour or so before Sunday's debate, we should all tweet at Trump: "Don't put salt in your eyes"?
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:20 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Donald Trump's spokeswoman Katrina Pierson on Muslim ban: “So What? They’re Muslim!”

Just noting that it looks like she said this last December. It's still bad just not this is what happened today bad.
posted by Jalliah at 12:20 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


"[O]ur new research suggests that evangelical voters’ views of Trump probably have much less to do with him personally than with his rhetoric on abortion and his promises to protect Christianity in America."

Uh-huh.

I wonder, though, what lies the so-called Christian Right will resort to when it's even less plausible to portray Hillary Clinton as a "secret Muslim"?
posted by Gelatin at 12:21 PM on October 6, 2016


Rick Hasen: Donald Trump’s Dangerous Vote Rigging Comments Follow Years of Republican Voter Fraud Hysteria
Donald Trump threatens this peace by raising the prospect not only of sending his supporters, unsupervised, into polling places (likely in minority neighborhoods). This can lead to voter intimidation on election day. He has also backed off his earlier, somewhat ambiguous statement that he would support Hillary Clinton if she won. Now, speaking to the New York Times, he backed off even his qualified pledge to support Clinton if he loses, saying: “We’re going to have to see. We’re going to see what happens. We’re going to have to see.”

The message has resonated with his supporters. According to an AP-NORC poll: “Only about one-third of Republicans say they have a great deal or quite a bit of confidence that votes on Election Day will be counted fairly... Half the people who have a favorable opinion of the Republican nominee say they have little to no confidence in the integrity of the vote count.”

But this should be no surprise, because members of the fraudulent fraud squad have pushed this message for years, claiming that voter fraud is rampant, and that it inevitably helps Democrats. As I pointed out in my 2012 book, The Voting Wars, conservative flame thrower Michelle Malkin warned just before the 2010 election that voter fraud was rampant. But when Democrats faced a “thumping” at the polls, Malkin had nothing to say about fraud. And now she’s at it again, claiming non-citizens will steal the election in Colorado and elsewhere.

There’s a whole industry of fraudsters, such as Hans von Spakovsky and Kansas Secretary of State Kobach who whip up voter fraud frenzies to degitimize Democrats, rile up the Republican base, and fundraise. That’s why the Wake County, NC GOP just sent out a letter saying that Democrats will “stop at nothing and registering dead people or falsifying voter information is simply a ‘means to an end’ for them.”
[...]
And there’s no doubt a racial element to all of this. When Trump talks of voter fraud in “certain areas” (code word for voting by minorities, with the fix put in by local labor unions), he’s talking about impersonation fraud. He says he’s worried about people voting 10 or 15 times...So yes, Trump’s rhetoric is not only condemnable; it is also dangerous. But let’s not forget where it came from, or expect that the pernicious voter fraud myth will disappear after Trump fades from the political scene.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:22 PM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]


I think stolyarova's point was that he wants the crowds to applaud him, not that he actually cares about winning and/or knows how to win.

I agree. Please understand, the more time Trump wastes playing to enthusiastic crowds that aren't numerous enough to tip swing states, the better I like it. My concern remains if he keeps implying the election will be "rigged," though.
posted by Gelatin at 12:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


My friend, who I believe, has a story about Trump being a pretentious jerk (specifically regarding french fries).
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yep, my point was that Trump is jonesing for big, friendly crowds, and he'll go wherever he has to in order to find them, even if it's not to his strategic benefit.
posted by stolyarova at 12:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Rick Hasen: Donald Trump’s Dangerous Vote Rigging Comments Follow Years of Republican Voter Fraud Hysteria

The common denominator is that Republicans would prefer if members of minority groups wouldn't vote, and they're willing to outlaw the practice if they can get away with it (thanks again, John Roberts!).
posted by Gelatin at 12:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Other than projection, whining, or direct quotes, have either Trump or Pence ever given any examples of Clinton's so-called "insult-driven campaign"? Like, one example of the Clinton campaign insulting either Pence or Trump?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think stolyarova's point was that he wants the crowds to applaud him, not that he actually cares about winning and/or knows how to win.

This for sure, with respect to Trump. But also the people who do know and care have to know that he has very little chance of winning. And the 'best' thing for those Rs would be to prevent any claims of a Clinton mandate or a landslide. Maybe they think they have a chance to win the popular vote still (unlikely), which they could leverage into why they can continue not compromising. Or that the electoral college is part of the establishment and needs to be undone (so much for the omniscience of the founding fathers and the constitution). Etc Etc. They are going to lose the White House, again. They are grasping at straws for how to continue doing exactly what they've been doing for the past eight years without having to change or compromise. They want to keep their power and don't care if they cause a constitutional crisis in the process. It's gross.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:27 PM on October 6, 2016


> Like, one example of the Clinton campaign insulting either Pence or Trump

The example Pence brought up was the basket of deplorables thing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:28 PM on October 6, 2016


Full Frontal with Samantha Bee - RIGGED!!!

Bless their little hearts. These Trump supporters don't recognize their idiocy when it's shoved right in their faces.
posted by zakur at 12:28 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Donald Trump's spokeswoman Katrina Pierson on Muslim ban: “So What? They’re Muslim!”

Holy shit, I thought that was a clickbait headline and not a direct quote captured on tape.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:29 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Other than projection, whining, or direct quotes, have either Trump or Pence ever given any examples of Clinton's so-called "insult-driven campaign"? Like, one example of the Clinton campaign insulting either Pence or Trump?

Of course not; all those so-called "insults" boil down to quoting Trump directly.
posted by Gelatin at 12:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton could lose all three of Nevada, Arizona and Colorado and still cruise to a 300+EV victory.

The NV Senate race matters, and while we're getting to the point where time and travel constraints kick in, there's still room for a couple of western swings: Kaine's in Las Vegas today, Hillary has a fundraiser in SF on the 13th, and I'm sure there'll be events planned around the Vegas debate on the 19th.

(Trump's booked in for two events in central Florida on Wednesday, but I can see them being cancelled because of post-hurricane mess; the Clinton campaign has cancelled Florida stuff for at least the next week, and hasn't set HRC's schedule for the week after the town-hall debate.)
posted by holgate at 12:34 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


When Trump talks of voter fraud in “certain areas” (code word for voting by minorities, with the fix put in by local labor unions), he’s talking about impersonation fraud. He says he’s worried about people voting 10 or 15 times...So yes, Trump’s rhetoric is not only condemnable; it is also dangerous. But let’s not forget where it came from . . .

"Hey kid! You want to make ten bucks? I need you to help me get these votes out of this bad area . . . "
 
posted by Herodios at 12:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Hey kid! You want to make ten bucks? I need you to help me get these votes out of this bad area . . . "

"Voting Trump. Yes, indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense! Everybody could stand a hundred Trump votes a year! They oughta have 'em, too."
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


They are going to lose the White House, again. They are grasping at straws for how to continue doing exactly what they've been doing for the past eight years without having to change or compromise.

Which reminds me, assuming she wins, Clinton should bring up McConnell's decision to obstruct Obama and make him a "one term president" without delay ("and how'd that work out for you, Senator?"), and put McConnell and Ryan -- and perhaps more importantly, the lazy and compliant Washington political press -- on notice that Republican obstructionism will be called out for what it is. "Washington gridlock" should be laid directly at the feet of the Republicans, at last.
posted by Gelatin at 12:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Interesting factoid from PRRI / The Atlantic polling -- White people who live in the town they grew up in: Trump +26. White people who live more than a 2 hour drive away from the town they grew up in: Clinton + 6.
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on October 6, 2016 [100 favorites]


Trump ban Muslims? Of course not. That's ridiculous

“Governor Pence’s flagrant attempts to mislead voters on his running mate’s positions aren’t fooling anyone,” said Zara Rahim, a spokeswoman for the Clinton campaign. “Not only has Trump proposed an unconstitutional immigration ban on an entire religion, but he’s suggested creating a database that tracks Muslims in this country.”

She added, “Pence has not disavowed anything, he’s just lied to the American people once again.”

Paging Ann Coulter, please pick up the Hell courtesy telephone . . .
posted by petebest at 12:50 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence tussles with Savannah Guthrie over past praise of Putin:
“No, I don't think so at all, Savannah,” Pence said when asked whether it was a mistake to deny so many of Trump’s comments that were captured on video. “And the mischaracterizations and the way Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton continue to take Donald Trump's statements out of context, it was something I just wasn’t going to tolerate during the debate.”

“But those are direct quotes in context,” Guthrie interjected.

“Well, Tim Kaine actually said that I had said that Vladimir Putin was a better leader,” Pence replied, prompting Guthrie to admit “you said stronger leader.”

“I corrected him. I said stronger, and Savannah, there's a difference. He was wrong. I was right...”
Of course not; all those so-called "insults" boil down to quoting Trump directly.
He added that it was “remarkable” that his opponent’s insistence on bringing up the Manhattan billionaire’s litany of derogatory and disrespectful remarks was evidence that it is Hillary Clinton’s campaign, and not Trump’s, that is fueled by insults.
OK, her campaign is fueled by insults--Trump's insults.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:50 PM on October 6, 2016 [26 favorites]


Clinton expands Michigan lead to 11 points:

I know this is good news and all, but these poll numbers really put a crimp in my attempt to see HRC and all the campaign surrogates before November. I've seen Kaine and Bill, and I'll be seeing Bernie in Dearborn tomorrow. Alas, I didn't even get a text when she was in Toledo recently, which I assume was to keep the spots for Ohioans, who would then presumably volunteer in their home state.
posted by palindromic at 12:52 PM on October 6, 2016


“Well, Tim Kaine actually said that I had said that Vladimir Putin was a better leader,” Pence replied, prompting Guthrie to admit “you said stronger leader.”

“I corrected him. I said stronger, and Savannah, there's a difference. He was wrong. I was right...”

I wish Guthrie would have followed up with "So do you think Obama is a better leader than Putin?"
posted by drezdn at 12:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [29 favorites]


They are grasping for straws at how to continue doing exactly what they've been doing for the past eight years without having to change or compromise.

I don't think they're grasping at all, they're making no attempt to moderate or compromise whatsoever, and don't see any need to do so. Trump is still winning 40% and they have a plausible argument that any other Republican could've won, thus allowing them to blame the loss solely on Trump's personal failures. They may hold the Senate. They will hold the House. They will regain the Senate again in two years even if they lose it in November. They continue to win in the States. They will continue to obstruct Hilary when she wins, and likely will not allow her to seat a Supreme Court Justice for 4 years, because they've paid no price for blocking Garland for nearly a year. Republicans have no incentive whatsoever to change, what they're doing is working.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Do they think this weird, mealy-mouthed nuh-uh game actually fools anyone but the deplorables? Is this their winning strategy to pull in more undecideds, by acting like the voters are infants who think a thumbtip tucked between fingers is truly a nose?
posted by palomar at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Incompetence or Strategery?

Which one's Conway and which one's Ailes again? Is Eric Jr. still driving Pence or did he leave him running in the spin room?
posted by petebest at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2016


When you're spending your time arguing about the exact word you used to praise the dictator, you're not draining the swamp, you're just wallowing around trying to find another alligator to bite you.
posted by zachlipton at 12:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [34 favorites]


“I corrected him. I said stronger, and Savannah, there's a difference. He was wrong. I was right...”

Is this some sort of 4th dimensional chess move to try and get somebody to bring up the Bill's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" semantic weaseling? A sort of "its ok if the Democrats do it but not if I do it?" thing?
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2016


>further developments in White Stripes-related election news: Jack White's record label is now selling this t-shirt

For those who did not click through, the front says 'ICKY TRUMP' and the back has this rewriting of 'Icky Thump lyrics:
White Americans? What?
Nothing better to do?
Why don't you kick yourself out?
You're an immigrant too.
Who's using who?
What should we do?
Well you can't be a pimp
and a prostitute too.
It would be even better if they were giving some percentage of profits to either the campaign or a relevant non-profit.
posted by palindromic at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Full Frontal with Samantha Bee - RIGGED!!!

Another stellar piece. Almost painful to watch. Almost.
posted by mikelieman at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


4th dimensional chess because 11th dimensional chess is too advanced for Pence.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wish Guthrie would have followed up with "So do you think Obama is a better leader than Putin?"

I wish Guthrie would have followed up with, "Governor, if you're going to lie on my show, you will address me as Ms. Guthrie"
posted by mikelieman at 1:03 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yep, my point was that Trump is jonesing for big, friendly crowds, and he'll go wherever he has to in order to find them, even if it's not to his strategic benefit.

Not to his benefit in winning the presidency, but the secret service is paying for his flights and the RNC is paying his hotel bills at Trump properties. Trump's short term gains are yuge!
posted by Emmy Noether at 1:04 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


There are certain services that are, in my eyes, best provided by government as these services get no gains by being driven by profits (prisons, schools, roads, fire and police services, to name a few). "Smaller government" means less oversight and transparency, and more profits for big money donors to political campaigns and/or companies who promise to "bring more jobs" to a region or state, without going into detail how those jobs pay, or what benefits (if any) are included.

YES YES YES.

Transparency, easy application of rules, standard benefits and pensions for employees, standardized training. There are serious benefits of government-run systems. I've worked both sides and when you have even not-for-profit contractors there's so much focus on getting that government money while minimizing expenses of providing services, mostly to pay for high salaries in the upper echelons of administration. Why did I have 4 bosses while I was personally providing services to 300 clients? Mostly cause they were focused on improving the efficiency of the people actually doing the work, so they could hire fewer people, while requesting more public funds. And putting more roadblocks in front of actually giving services to consumers to save money.
posted by threeturtles at 1:05 PM on October 6, 2016 [29 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Setting a Time Bomb by Jamelle Bouie
Trump is speaking to the idea—propagated through conservative media—that Barack Obama stole the 2008 and 2012 elections by using fraud and other nefarious tactics in cities like Philadelphia.

The “evidence” for this is Obama’s high support in a handful of inner-city areas. In 2012, for instance, there were precincts in Philadelphia and Cleveland where Obama won as much as 100 percent of the vote. [...]

But this effort is also more than a tactic to try to ensure one side gets more votes than the other. The mania over voter fraud has everything to do with the election of Obama, America’s first black president, who won that contest—and re-election—on the power of his performance with people of color, and black voters in particular. In response, Republicans have begun a crusade against “fraud,” meaning anything that enhances access to the polls, and brings these voters to the voting booth. [...]

If we are living in the midst of another white backlash—and Trump’s ethno-nationalist campaign for the White House suggests that we are—then it’s only fitting that we’ve seen a new push against full access at the ballot box, spearheaded by a political party enthralled to a recalcitrant movement of white revanchists. Likewise, it’s fitting that its symbol and head, Trump, is now channeling a sesqui-century of racial reaction. The difference between now and the past is that these new racial reactionaries are losing.[...]
posted by melissasaurus at 1:08 PM on October 6, 2016 [44 favorites]


I wish Guthrie would have followed up with, "Governor, if you're going to lie on my show, you will address me as Ms. Guthrie"

I wish Guthrie would have followed up with "Governor, if you're going to lie on my show, you can consider this interview concluded. Come back when you're ready to be honest."

The media started to turn on Trump when he insulted them with his hotel-informercial-birther-announcement bait-and-switch, but this casual lying and denial of objective, verifiable facts conveys just as much contempt for the media.

At least that part is genuine.
posted by Gelatin at 1:09 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's Fleet Week here in San Francisco, so at least now I finally have appropriate military-industrial complex sound effects to go with all the hand-wringing on my Facbeook feed about how hawkish Clinton is.

(It used to horrify me that the same sounds that have meant bombs and death to so many people are used here to mean "fall entertainment," but then we "solved" that problem with silent drones and guided smart bombs dropped from high altitudes, and that solution is no more comforting.)
posted by zachlipton at 1:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]



I wish Guthrie would have followed up with "Governor, if you're going to lie on my show, you can consider this interview concluded. Come back when you're ready to be honest.

Ugh get him on with Joy Reid.
posted by zutalors! at 1:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary Clinton Faces Her Toughest Interviewer Yet―​11-Year-Old Marley Dias (by Marley Dias)
posted by melissasaurus at 1:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [31 favorites]


Do they think this weird, mealy-mouthed nuh-uh game actually fools anyone but the deplorables?

The "all politicians are equally bad" people at my workplace have transitioned to openly making fun of the Trump campaign's various blunders. They may be somewhat blind to the fact that Trump's core supporters are a basket of deplorables, but it's sinking in that they're also a basket of incompetents.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:13 PM on October 6, 2016 [24 favorites]


I doubt Trump will bring up Bill's sex life during the debate, why would he? His continuing references to it during his talk show interviews and his rallies are doing the job. The press has brought it up and even here on MetaFilter people keep bringing it up and judging Hillary for her actions. So it is is really unnecessary. But let's say he does because he is so unpredictable. All Hillary has to do is shrug her shoulders and say "This is not the Jerry Springer show. This is a Presidential debate. The voters are more interested in my policies than Bill's infidelities." Said right without too much feeling or emotion it could really take the wind of his sails.

How Howard Stern Owned Donald Trump

The Donald fancied himself a player in the ’90s, but the shock jock knew just how to play him. Now that’s back to haunt the candidate.
Stern has long had a devilish talent for lulling guests into a false sense of security—and then luring them into rhetorical traps. He casts his guests in a burlesque he scripts for them, and cattle-prods them into playing their parts, first fawning over them until they feel like celebrities, then bringing down the hammer of humiliation. He’s a diabolically domineering scene partner. No interviewer has ever been as adroit with treacherous leading questions in the vein of “When did you stop beating your wife?” Stern, in other words, gets people to publicly embrace their worst selves—and say things they live to regret.

That’s exactly what happened with Trump. Today, as the Republican nominee, he may fashion himself as a boss and a master of the universe. But what comes across in old tapes of the show, resurfaced recently by BuzzFeed and other outlets, is that Trump, like many of Stern’s guests, was often the one being played. By nailing him as a buffoon and then—unkindest cut—forcing him to kiss the Howard Stern ring, Stern and his co-anchor, Robin Quivers, created a series of broadcasts that today showcase not just Trump’s misogyny but his ready submission to sharper minds.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:13 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


The New York State GOP is paying for pro-Trump mailers being sent all over the United States.

Does this mean the NY State GOP has money to burn? Do they have no down ticket races to support?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:17 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]




Hillary Clinton Faces Her Toughest Interviewer Yet―​11-Year-Old Marley Dias (by Marley Dias)

I got a little teary reading that. Something something pandered to so effectively.
posted by zutalors! at 1:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Full Frontal with Samantha Bee - RIGGED!!!

British trivia: one of the interviewers is Amy Hoggart, daughter of the late Simon Hoggart (venerable Guardian journalist and host of The News Quiz on BBC Radio) and granddaughter of Richard Hoggart, whose The Uses of Literacy remains an essential work on the rise of mass media and the transformation of working-class culture in Britain. She's also a US citizen, born in DC when her dad was the Graun's Washington correspondent.
posted by holgate at 1:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


The White House Rule: No Tax Returns, No Job. Op-ed from former ethics counsels to both Bush II and Obama:
As ethics counsel to the current president and his predecessor, we scrutinized their tax returns before they were released every year. We also worked with our colleagues to review many tax returns of presidential nominees for cabinet and other positions. Based on the few pages of Donald J. Trump’s 1995 tax returns that have become public, we have come to the conclusion that no one in his position would have been nominated, much less confirmed by the Senate, during either of the administrations we served. The same is true of any modern administration of a president from either party.
posted by zachlipton at 1:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [30 favorites]


> How Howard Stern Owned Donald Trump

"Listening now to the old Stern-Trump scenes, Trump clearly has none of Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf’s integrity."
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:23 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


As Trump Slumps, Top Adviser Roger Stone Lashes Out At Kellyanne Conway
Longtime Donald Trump adviser Roger Stone has found someone to blame for the Republican nominee’s recent struggles: campaign manager Kellyanne Conway. Stone has been directly and indirectly jabbing the relatively new Trump official as a “Cruzbot” who isn’t well-versed in politics and wants “to be on television” just to “talk about how smart” she is. [...]When the moderators of the debates were announced in early September, Stone tweeted: “Who the hell in the Trump campaign approved these debate moderators?” He then tweeted to someone who agreed with his criticism: “Ask Kelly Ann [sic] Conway who made this boneheaded decision!”

Following the first presidential debate, Conway told CNN that she “thought Lester Holt did a great job." Stone responded on Twitter: “Then you need to learn something about politics #Cruzbot.”
This is why you don't campaign for the nasty people to be in power-- they are nasty to everyone.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2016 [38 favorites]


The "all politicians are equally bad" people at my workplace have transitioned to openly making fun of the Trump campaign's various blunders.

My dad, a more or less lifelong Libertarian Party voter and devoted all-caps speaker, has taken to mocking his father for early voting for Trump: "Dad, you gave $300 to those Windows-virus scammers, so you are definitely a prime rube target for this penny-ante, ass-faced grifter." paraphrase from remarks overheard at a cousin's daughter's bday party, though he definitely said 'ass-faced grifter'

Then my dad will call me in absolute consternation about his father, like "HE STILL THINKS TRUMP WON THE FIRST DEBATE, WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT, I'M SORRY YOU SHARE 1/4 OF HIS GENES." Then I say, 'Well, you share half, which probably explains the Johnson love."

We have fun.
posted by palindromic at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2016 [78 favorites]


Whoever said this thread moves quickly: I picked today to start recovering from my three-cup-a-day caffeine habit and I've been standing here at work wondering who the shit made all these goddamn hours so long

Anyway I can confirm that today was a pretty damn slow news day, as evidenced by I had time to contemplate mortality and perception instead of nicer happier things like the fascist who might get to lead the United States of America, bad job team
posted by rorgy at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hm, the NY state GOP raised headlines back in 2013 for taking money from candidates and then using its discounted nonprofit rates for mailers supporting those candidates. (And the NY Dems did the same.) The rule is that you can't take advantage of the nonprofit rate if candidates prepare the content or make any kind of payment or transfer, but it appears to be a rule that's routinely violated. Let's see what the FEC forms say in a couple of weeks.
posted by holgate at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can tell rorgy's off their coffee because that post was only three lines.
posted by stolyarova at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2016 [45 favorites]


> Longtime Donald Trump adviser Roger Stone has found someone to blame for the Republican nominee’s recent struggles:

As in all things, it is never, ever, EVER the rich white guy's fault.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


I stayed up until 5am writing a really long thing for another place, gimme a break today prettypls
posted by rorgy at 1:34 PM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


We love you rorgy, self-care comes first <3
posted by stolyarova at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


Does this mean the NY State GOP has money to burn? Do they have no down ticket races to support?

There are some swing seats for state senate - I think enough to flip control to Dems. So, this seems like a case of either (a) incompetence or (b) national party made them do it because they are cash poor (which could mean they have good internal polling for the swing races or that they are resigned to sacrificing a seat or two in an otherwise blue state).

Has anyone seen recent polling for NY downballot races?
posted by melissasaurus at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2016


Hillary Clinton Faces Her Toughest Interviewer Yet―​11-Year-Old Marley Dias (by Marley Dias)

Weeping. Curse you, team of mutant, hyper-efficient HRC pander bears!
posted by The Bellman at 1:37 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


HRC pander bears

These should be the titles for the HRC pr team. Executive Pander Bear, Associate Pander Bear...
posted by zutalors! at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


OMG, the picture of young Hills in the Marley Diaz interview.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also, Hillary loved Little Women, and loved Jo best.

SURPRISING LITERALLY NO ONE.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [55 favorites]


> Has anyone seen recent polling for NY downballot races?
In NY district 23 I'm finally seeing some yard signs for John Plumb, who is challenging the odious Tom Reed. Not sure what the odds are, but it sure would be nice to flip that seat. Not much point to campaigning in deep blue Ithaca for either side, I guess.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:44 PM on October 6, 2016




OMG, the picture of young Hills in the Marley Diaz interview.

I like how in about a hundred years of point and shoot photography no one has figured out what to do with their arms.
posted by zutalors! at 1:44 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Texas voter registration article says basically exactly what I said when we were talking about what it would take to turn Texas blue.
 “There’s no resources to register Latinos in Texas,” says Selene Gomez, a San Antonio–based organizer for Mi Familia Vota. “People look at it as a red state and move on. Campaigns keep going to the same people. That’s why a lot of Latinos don’t come out: because a lot of us are never talked to. No one thinks about us.” There are half a million unregistered voters in the Rio Grande Valley, which comprises four counties in South Texas along the Mexican border, but only one group—the Advocacy Alliance Center of Texas, which has just two staffers—is working full-time to register them.
What it would take is either a changing of the laws in the state, automatic voter registration or a well-funded and VERY DETERMINED campaign who really, really wants to win Texas. I think Hillary could do it, but there's not enough time left this time around to accomplish the task, and all the conventional wisdom writes off Texas as a waste of resources.
posted by threeturtles at 1:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Not much point to campaigning in deep blue Ithaca for either side, I guess.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:44 PM on October 6 [+] [!]

bipartysterical?
posted by petebest at 1:47 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


And that's not a rewriting of Icky Thump lyrics, those are the lyrics as they already existed.
posted by threeturtles at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Jo was my favorite Little Women character, too. I second the feeling of being effectively pandered to.

I had a similar bad haircut experience in school: I wanted my frizzy, curly, tangled waist-length hair cut into a shortish bob. Mom took me to a budget haircut place where the stylist kept cutting it shorter to "even things up." I ended up with a very short pixie cut and had to keep correcting high school classmates who saw me from behind and thought I was a boy.
posted by Leslie Knope at 1:52 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


OMG, the picture of young Hills in the Marley Diaz interview.

The image of her punching that boy in the nose for not protecting the baby bunnies is now 10,000% more delightful than it already was.
posted by stolyarova at 1:54 PM on October 6, 2016 [29 favorites]


From the Marley Dias interview:
I'll tell you another story from high school. When I was a senior, I ran for class president. And I lost. One of my opponents even told me I was "really stupid" if I thought a girl could be elected president. Fine. But then the boy who won asked me to be the chair of the Organizations Committee. This meant that he got to be president, but I had to do most of the work.
Clinton has been saying "Fine" to people like Trump her entire life.
I said yes anyway – and it turned out to be a lot of fun, because I got to plan all the events I would have pushed for as president. (One of them was a mock presidential debate, if you can believe that!)
Why yes, I can believe that!
posted by zachlipton at 2:00 PM on October 6, 2016 [47 favorites]


Oh hey, Marley Dias! The truly wonderful Another Round podcast had her on as a guest, and it was an absolute delight. I have promoted that episode on here before, but seriously, go listen to it and it'll give you life. She is such an awesome, confident girl.

Also important PSA: if you are not already regularly listening to Another Round, change that, pronto.
posted by aka burlap at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


FFS, Drudge is now pushing some Hurricane Truther bullshit.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


FFS, Drudge is now pushing some Hurricane Truther bullshit.

Have Trump-lovers really started referring to themselves as "the deplorables"? And in that tacky third-person voice too?
posted by rorgy at 2:03 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


The gist of Drudge's argument is that The Left is lying about the strength of Hurricane Matthew to Make A Point About Climate Change.

The result is going to be gullible old people who read Drudge Report not taking the precautions they need to in order to protect themselves from the storm.

Asshole.
posted by stolyarova at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


(I just got my Hillary swag in the mail! Seriously call them, they'll help you track it down. Hoping that I will us my "100% shatter glass ceiling" high-ball glasses to make a well-deserved toast to HRC and all of us for surviving until Nov 8)
posted by danapiper at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow that's pathological....the National Hurricane Center is in on the fix, really

It's been 12 years since a category 4 storm hit the US. Is it actually possible that people can forget that these things are not that rare, in only 12 years? How could you possibly even think....oh never mind
posted by thelonius at 2:05 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


IT'S A CATEGORY LIE-VE OBAMACANE
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:06 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


People could literally die as a result of that kind of conspiracy-mongering.
posted by zachlipton at 2:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


They were 8 then? *shrug*
We're way past logic.

I never said that.
posted by petebest at 2:08 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


The gist of Drudge's argument is that The Left is lying about the strength of Hurricane Matthew to Make A Point About Climate Change.
I caught a few minutes of Rush today (so you don't have to); the entire bit I heard was about how the National Weather Service (not even the EPA!) was full of climate change hoaxing, because the world is obviously getting cooler, and they can't even predict the path of this hurricane!

I just. What.
posted by rp at 2:08 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was thinking they were gonna start talking about NWO weather machines again. I guess this is SLIGHTLY more believable...
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:08 PM on October 6, 2016


I'm not caught up, but i am on vacation in Florida right now, on the gulf coast side where it's merely raining rather than hurricaning, and there are political signs all over the place for all the state and local elections and exactly two for Trump that i saw anywhere. That's not counting the road side "Trump Shop" a la a fireworks stand. But yeah, i was expecting wall to wall Trumpanelia here but...nope.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Obama will do anything to get a hug from republican governors.
posted by peeedro at 2:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm glad my parents are critical thinkers who take their hurricane advice from the Governor and the President, not Jones and Drudge. They're sheltering in a high school right now.
posted by xyzzy at 2:13 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Bullying Anti-Asian Racism of Fox News's Waters' World by Jiayang Fan [New Yorker]
posted by melissasaurus at 2:14 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


I wonder if she's got the phone number of the sexist high school president so she can call come November and say "I guess you were wrong".

It's a shame that someone of Clinton's obvious talent and passion is only now able to get this close to the Presidency. How many supremely talented women have had their dreams crushed by "traditional values" over the lifespan of the US?
posted by vuron at 2:14 PM on October 6, 2016 [48 favorites]


The gist of Drudge's argument is that The Left is lying about the strength of Hurricane Matthew to Make A Point About Climate Change.

Huh, and here I thought the fever swamp would go apeshit about the Clinton campaign asking the affected states to extend voter registration deadlines, complete with dogwhistles about "urban" voters.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:21 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is this Hurricane Matthew conspiracy theory finally going to be the Right taking their anti-Obama fits too far? Because if my dad is any indication, old white dudes LOVE the National Weather Service
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:21 PM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


The gist of Drudge's argument is that The Left is lying about the strength of Hurricane Matthew to Make A Point About Climate Change.

They should pressure Rick Scott to decline all federal relief.
posted by PenDevil at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


BTW, for those that are interested there's a tweetstorm from Rick Hasen on how the hurricane could really fuck up the electoral process this year.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


FYI for anyone who lives in NJ: your legislators are voting tomorrow morning to increase the gas tax by $0.23/gal (~11% increase in cost of gas) so that they can, among other things, eliminate the estate tax. This shifts the source of state funding for infrastructure improvements from a progressive tax to a regressive tax. So, you might want to get on the phone to your state reps, if you oppose that.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:27 PM on October 6, 2016 [39 favorites]


Does this mean the NY State GOP has money to burn? Do they have no down ticket races to support?

I just got one of those mailers, which says in part "The first step is rebuilding, revitalizing and reigniting our cities--like yours." Two thoughts about the phrasing: "like yours" is a ridiculously generic attempt at personalization and, second, I'm not sure I want my (or any) city reignited. But perhaps I'm being pedantic and they don't really mean to set things on fire. Initially I was mad that I got one, but now I'm hoping that they're just wasting money and effort by sending thousands of these things to committed Hillary supporters like me who are just going to shrug and/or criticize their writing skills.
posted by danielleh at 2:28 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Gotta admit I've been worried that this could flip Florida red. The storm is gonna make landfall right in the heaviest Dem area of the state and rip up the coast from there. In a relatively close election it could make the difference as displaced people have a much harder time voting.

That's obviously not my only concern with this storm what with, you know, the human cost. But it is a concern.
posted by Justinian at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wonder if she's got the phone number of the sexist high school president so she can call come November and say "I guess you were wrong".

When I think of Hillary's list of haters, I like to think of this clip from the West Wing.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


> The gist of Drudge's argument is that The Left is lying about the strength of Hurricane Matthew to Make A Point About Climate Change.

Only one way to make sure! Better get right down to the water's edge for the best view.

Seriously, though, anyone who would trust Drudge over the National Weather Service for information about hurricanes is far too invested in their intentional ignorance to qualify for my empathy, the levels of which I believe are within normal human bounds but still finite.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine Rallies Support for Clinton in PA

"The debate was a little feisty. I mean… I've got to admit, I am Irish," Kaine laughed. "My opponent Mike Pence—who's a pretty good debater—he came in really wanting to lay some gloves on Hillary Clinton and didn't get to do anything. I've never played hockey, but I think I'd be a good goalie based on last night. Nothing is going in the net."
posted by orangutan at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [44 favorites]


Rick Hasen on how the hurricane could really fuck up the electoral process this year.

Cue up right wing talking point on how God sent Hurricane Matthew so that Florida could vote Republican.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:37 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Drudge was serious about revealing the perfidy of the NOAA he'd rent a chartered boat and then take lots of measurements in the hurricane.

Kind of like tornado chasers but even sketchier.

But of course he's a keyboard warrior trumped up on his own hot air.
posted by vuron at 2:38 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cue up right wing talking point on how God sent Hurricane Matthew so that Florida could vote Republican.

Saw a friend posting on facebook about how Hurricane Matthew became a hurricane on the 24th of September, a clear reference to Matthew 24 which deals with the end of times. Or something.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Measurements have a well-known liberal bias.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Best election photo of the year. [Twitter link]
posted by Superplin at 2:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [36 favorites]


Have Trump-lovers really started referring to themselves as "the deplorables"? And in that tacky third-person voice too?

Oh, indeed. You can even get t-shirts emblazoned with such witticisms as Deplorable Lives Matter.
posted by dis_integration at 2:46 PM on October 6, 2016


Damn, that is a man who looks like he's just drunk a cod liver oil, kale, cow pattie smoothie for a 50 cent piece.
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Saw a friend posting on facebook about how Hurricane Matthew became a hurricane on the 24th of September, a clear reference to Matthew 24 which deals with the end of times.

Hey, didn't Kaine also quote from the Book of Matthew during the debate? Read the signs, people!
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I tried to have a conversation with my libertarian cousin (and closest friend) today about Johnson, and she just was not having it. She asked why I didn't like him, and when I listed his recent...lowlights, she basically tableflipped and said I didn't know anything about him and that once I "read up," we can talk about it. She also said "Want me to list Hillary's gaffes?" to which I said, sure! but she didn't take me up on it. I don't know why she refused to talk about any of this, but she's definitely voting Johnson and seems to think he's great.

This has been my one venture into the world beyond my Hillary-bubble, and now I'm reminded why she and I don't talk politics ever and I has a sad.
posted by altopower at 2:49 PM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


You should've led with Ron Paul saying that Johnson wasn't really a libertarian. It's much more fun to watch libertarians fight among themselves about who is the true believer and who isn't.
posted by vuron at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


Egg has apparently picked a running mate: GOP Strategist Mindy Flynn

posted by melissasaurus at 2:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


So will any MeFites be attending the PA events with Anne Holton? MeMail me if you are.
posted by pxe2000 at 2:58 PM on October 6, 2016


Wow. Egg is so forgettable that it truly never occurred to me or anyone else to add him to the wiki.
posted by zachlipton at 3:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


zombieflanders: When Trump talks of voter fraud in “certain areas” (code word for voting by minorities, with the fix put in by local labor unions), he’s talking about impersonation fraud. He says he’s worried about people voting 10 or 15 times...
When Donald Trump suggested in August that the presidential vote might be rigged, his claim was dismissed by fact-checkers and experts who explained that large-scale electoral fraud is not possible in the U.S. Indeed, it hasn't taken place for generations. And yet it's useful to keep in mind how easy it is to subvert an election system: I know, I come from a country where it happens systematically.

For 10 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia had a largely fraud-free election system; international observers certified Russian elections as free and fair in the mid-1990s. In the 2000s, however, fraud became widespread, and it determined the outcome of the most recent elections for parliament, on Sept. 18.
Russia Proves Vote Fraud Can Happen Anywhere (Sep 22, 2016, Bloomberg)
posted by filthy light thief at 3:05 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Who?
posted by stolyarova at 3:06 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think it's Mindy Finn, not Flynn, but it seems perfectly appropriate to be wrong about that here given her running mate.

I hereby dub her McDonalds Side Salad.
posted by zachlipton at 3:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think it's Mindy Finn, not Flynn, but it seems perfectly appropriate to be wrong about that here given her running mate.

Ha! Whoops!
posted by melissasaurus at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2016


She's obviously Hash Brown.
posted by asteria at 3:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Wow. Egg is so forgettable that it truly never occurred to me or anyone else to add him to the wiki.

It never occurred to me that he would have a running mate!
posted by amarynth at 3:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Egg McMindyFinn
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just when I thought the election couldn't get any Stranger... [link to a tweet containing a video]
posted by melissasaurus at 3:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Filet-o-Finn?
posted by zachlipton at 3:15 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Re: lawn signs: So I'm visiting family in Costa Mesa, CA. I haven't seen Trump or Clinton lawn signs in the parts of Costa Mesa or Newport Beach I've been through, but holy shit I've never seen so many political lawn signs in my life. They're all for local races and initiatives, but I'm just...wow, this is amazeballs.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:17 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Her?
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


my HRC schwag delivery report: Ordered pins, a magnet and window clings last Friday (9/30) and tracking says they are home in my mailbox, delivered today. Yays
posted by krix at 3:28 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary wrote an Op-Ed for the Philadelphia Gay News: Hillary Clinton addresses LGBT equality

"This is the first time a major-party presidential candidate has written an op-ed for an LGBT newspaper. As such, this piece will kick off our annual LGBT History Month Project coverage, which will run weekly through the end of October."

I'm glad she did this, as LGBT rights have not been talked about very much this election, which is a shame considering how homophobic Mike Pence is, and the RNC's platform.
posted by airish at 3:28 PM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


It appears as if one_bean may in fact be a wizard, although in this case it appears Trump's bringing up the Central Park Five. Spoiler alert: he lies his racist face off.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just when I thought the election couldn't get any Stranger... [link to a tweet containing a video]

Amazing. One for corb.
posted by knapah at 3:35 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


I just got one of those mailers, which says in part "The first step is rebuilding, revitalizing and reigniting our cities--like yours."

Obviously a mix-up. That mailer was meant for Phoenix.
posted by ckape at 3:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary wrote an Op-Ed for the Philadelphia Gay News: Hillary Clinton addresses LGBT equality

Note: It's the 18th anniversary of Matthew Shepard's murder today.

Clinton's campaign gets it. They're paying attention. They care.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:37 PM on October 6, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump says he's so into Law and Order, but in one of the extremely rare instances where the system actually admits a giant mistake was made, with full exonerations and everything, Trump doesn't believe it? That's some respect for the judicial process right there.
posted by zachlipton at 3:38 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Have Trump-lovers really started referring to themselves as "the deplorables"? And in that tacky third-person voice too?

the one drumpf-voter in my newsfeed posted something about being proud to be a deplorable. I really wanted to respond but I was too dumbfounded to find the words.
posted by numaner at 3:39 PM on October 6, 2016


do a search on twitter for 'deplorable'. they been at it for weeks now.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:41 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Law and Order" = keeping "the blacks" down
posted by kirkaracha at 3:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


So we keep seeing people posting "here's what she should say/do if Trump brings up Bill's infidelity" but what I'm really hoping for Sunday is that she's worked out a rock-solid response to when Trump starts hammering her on NAFTA and trade. I totally get that this isn't a thing with fast, easy, clear-cut answers, and that she's kind of screwed in that she can neither strongly defend it nor plausibly echo what Donald is saying, but if Trump actually does prepare and listen to people for this next one, we're gonna see it there, because pretty much everyone agreed the trade attacks were his strongest moments in the first debate, and "well that's your opinion" isn't really a great comeback. The infidelity stuff, there's all kinds of good ways to respond to that, including not responding at all, but nothing would make me happier during the next debate than seeing her responses on this one particular subject hella shored up.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:44 PM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


Yeah, there are signs up here with "deplorable lives matter" too. It seems to be a thing in the rural areas.
posted by corb at 3:45 PM on October 6, 2016


When Evan McMullin speaks at an event, do they introduce him as the next president of the United States like they do for real candidates?
posted by chrchr at 3:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump keeps saying "Bring back Law & Order. We need Law & Order."

Law & Order was cancelled in 2010. That's also when Trump started really ramping up the birtherism. Has anyone asked Trump if he means "law and order" as in militarized policing or "Law & Order" as in the Dick Wolf creation? Maybe if we all petition NBC to bring back (the original!) L&O, he'd drop out?
posted by melissasaurus at 3:52 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


When Evan McMullin speaks at an event, do they introduce him as the next president of the United States like they do for real candidates?

Uh. Introduce him to who, exactly? The empty chairs?
posted by Justinian at 3:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Facts About Millennials
posted by chrchr at 3:56 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Have Trump-lovers really started referring to themselves as "the deplorables"? And in that tacky third-person voice too?

I drove my wife to the airport this morning and in an effort to avoid the 395 backup crossing over the Potomac I cut through our old neighborhood - Aurora Hills, though everyone just calls it Crystal City, which it abuts - to get to National airport.

There was a single Trump yard sign along our route, which said PROUD TRUMP "DEPLORABLE" with each word on its own line, deplorable in a typeface sort of halfway between script and italic. We shook our heads and my wife commented "do they know know where they live?"
posted by phearlez at 4:00 PM on October 6, 2016


Let's stop giving Glenn Beck a break. I remind you that his latest book is Liars: How Progressives Exploit Our Fears for Power and Control.
posted by wittgenstein at 4:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Have Trump-lovers really started referring to themselves as "the deplorables"?

it lacks the revolting poetry of those Purple Heart bandaids, but it's just as effective for self-identifying as an asshole, so I approve
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


@onlxn's twitter leaking out into the real world:

'Clown Lives Matter' march planned for Oct. 15 in Tucson

Fuck these stupid fucking clowns.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [13 favorites]


Facts About Millennials

I was totally expecting this to be a faux-clueless parody story, composed of stuff like "the Millennial cannot resist the delicious beet!"
posted by Sauce Trough at 4:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Not even going to lie, I do love libertarian Matt Drudge lashing out at the federal government for not intervening to protect private property.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:13 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Researchers find fake data in Olympic anti-doping, Guccifer 2.0 Clinton dumps -
This time, some athlete data was altered by the "Fancy Bear" group.

(Arstechnica)
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:14 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Let's stop giving Glenn Beck a break. I remind you that his latest book is Liars: How Progressives Exploit Our Fears for Power and Control.

i completely agree that Beck is an occasionally dangerous buffoon and we shouldn't cut him a whole lot of slack. At the moment, he serves to illustrate the dangers of argumentum ad hominem. Beck and other movement conservatives have so demonized the left (especially Obama) that they won't even accept ideas that they agree with if those ideas come from a source they disagree with. They've taken a logical fallacies and made it a central tenet of their mode of governing. This is part of why the right hasn't been able to get anything done - any area of possible compromise or genuine bipartisan cooperation is secondary to their desire to never work with the left on anything ever. Its compulsive and destructive.

The reality is that there are probably plenty of things we agree with with our fellow human beings no matter what their belief system - and plenty of things we disagree with them about even if they're politically, culturally or socially similar to us. This is part of what Clinton a superior candidate to Trump (and, in my opinion, to everyone else who ran this year). Call it pragmatism or strong social skills or whatever you want, she has a track record of trying to build coalitions in the service of getting some of the things she wants. That's how governance happens.

That's also why the Republicans are currently singularly unsuited for political power and why we must work to push them out at every level.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:16 PM on October 6, 2016 [22 favorites]


Facts About Millennials
posted by chrchr

Here's a direct link to the poll results [pdf]. Some interesting (though not totally shocking) tidbits:

-no evidence of unusual support of 3rd party candidates; no one likes Stein and Johnson does well mainly among white ppl
-voter turnout is the main issue
-HRC is behind Obama's numbers, but still doing well
-Trump is WAY behind Romney's numbers
-white millennials are the only group that thinks Trump is more trustworthy than Clinton; she wins favorability for all groups
-the "Most Important Problem" is divided along racial lines; Asian-American millennials are the only group to not rank either racism or terrorism as a top choice.
-student debt is the most important economic issue for all groups except Latinx
-at least 75% of all groups extremely or somewhat favor increasing taxes on >$1mil incomes

(there's a lot more!)
posted by melissasaurus at 4:16 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


TUCSON - Organizers are planning a "Clown Lives Matter" march for October 15 in Tucson in reaction to the recent spate of frightening incidents -- both real and imagined -- spread in the news and on social media.

The march will be at 6:30 p.m. Oct. 15 on 4th Avenue in Tucson. Attendees are invited to show up wearing full clown makeup or masks.

According to a flyer advertising the event, "this is a peaceful way to show clowns are not psycho killers. We want the public to feel safe, and not be afraid. So come out, bring the family, meet a clown and get a hug!"

Do you think they realize the backhanded racist statement they're making, or are they just oblivious idiots?
posted by Existential Dread at 4:16 PM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


SOON: Donald Trump Holds Campaign Rally in Sandown, NH
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:19 PM on October 6, 2016


Do you think they realize the backhanded racist statement they're making, or are they just oblivious idiots?

Well, I mean, they are clowns.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:20 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


SOON: Donald Trump Holds Campaign Rally in Sandown, NH

for those who prefer their racist clown gatherings without the costumes and makeup
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:22 PM on October 6, 2016 [33 favorites]


Ugh, why don't they just keep the exaggerated bright red lips but replace the traditional white makeup base with black?

Assuming this isn't malicious, it really underscores a huge issue with race which seems to crop up in my life all the time. Lots of people the age of my parents or from a very different social group think that racism is basically using racial slurs or being in the Klan and anything not that bad is not racism at all.
posted by snofoam at 4:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


or those who prefer their racist clown gatherings without the costumes and makeup

check out the venue, teeming with thousands of supporters. /not
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


NYTimes Want to Know the Crucial Areas for Clinton? Follow Michelle Obama
“She chooses her moments, and she has made clear to her staff and the Democratic Party that she wants to go places where she can make a difference,” said Peter Slevin,[...]
Mrs. Obama has made only about a half-dozen campaign appearances for Mrs. Clinton in the general election, each carefully approved by the White House. Each has become something of an event — and her warm, spunky delivery has given rise to several of the kind of viral-video moments that rarely emerge from Mrs. Clinton’s rallies.[...]

Before making the case for Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Obama often describes her mixed emotions about leaving the White House. “We are experiencing a great transition for me and Barack and Malia and Sasha and Bo and Sunny and Grandma,” she said in Charlotte on Tuesday.

“I’m going to need a job, but it will be a job out of politics,” she said. “My husband’s got to get a job — somebody has got to hire that man.”

There were shouts of “Michelle for president!” and “Michelle for mayor!” — but the first lady was having none of it.

“Can you believe I’m campaigning again?” she said. “But I’m happy to be out here. Because this is the last time.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:27 PM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


SOON: Donald Trump Holds Campaign Rally in Sandown, NH


Dude, you've got a debate in three days! Stop traveling around the country doing pointless rallies and do some serious debate prep. HRC has like one event this week and one in the next week before the last debate, presumably because she's doing intensive debate prep, and Trump is travelling so much there's no way he has time to focus on the debate.

Sunday is gonna be so weird again
posted by dis_integration at 4:29 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Field report: I was just called by Gallup polling on my cell phone, and while they did ask a few election questions (favorable or unfavorable, have you heard about taxes, policies, debates) they did not ask who I was voting for.

The primary purpose of the poll seemed to actually be questions about if I thought the US Government keeps a central database of all residents and whether or not I would feel that the government using information from the social security database to complete the census would be an invasion of my privacy. That was a series of VERY weird questions.
posted by anastasiav at 4:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


I honestly don't know if I'll ever be able to presume good faith on race/ethnic matters from white Americans i don't know ever again.

Honestly, as a pasty-ass grade-A certified whiteboy, I think this is just you waking up to what was always sadly true.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Taco Trucks Are Actually Registering Citizens to Vote in Texas and Arizona
...So when USHCC’s #GuacTheVote initiative began, Audrey Maker and Tamale House East’s part owner Jose Valera teamed up to increase voter registration numbers in Texas’ Travis County. Focusing on areas with high concentrations of Latinos as well as a lot of foot traffic, at least two trucks will sell food as they typically do. But they’ll also have a Spanish speaker and a trained deputy registrar to make it easy for people to register.
posted by p3t3 at 4:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [60 favorites]


AP Debate minefield: Town hall will test candidates' stagecraft
WASHINGTON (AP) — President George H.W. Bush conspicuously checked his watch. Al Gore got too close for comfort. Mitt Romney strode across stage to confront President Barack Obama face to face.

For presidential candidates, a town hall debate is a test of stagecraft as much as substance. When Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump meet Sunday night in St. Louis, they'll be fielding questions from undecided voters seated nearby. In an added dose of unpredictability, the format allows the candidates to move around the stage, putting them in unusually close proximity.

"There's a lot more interaction, physical interaction," says Judd Gregg, the former New Hampshire senator who helped President George W. Bush prepare for debates. He said a candidate who is too aggressive in a town hall, either with the voters or a rival, "can come across looking really chippy, not looking presidential."
WaPo After 10 days of turmoil, Trump signals he will try to focus ahead of Sunday debate
The Republican presidential nominee appeared more controlled on the campaign trail on Wednesday and Thursday than he was last week, sticking with scripted speeches, mostly avoiding interviews and sending tweets that appeared to have been closely edited, if not entirely composed, by his staff. He denounced interruptions during debates, announced plans to campaign with House Speaker Paul D. Ryan in Wisconsin on Saturday and said he would avoid mentioning Bill Clinton’s affairs during Sunday’s town hall with Hillary Clinton in St. Louis.

In the moments that Trump went off-script, stumbles returned. At a rally in Reno, Nev., on Wednesday night, Trump bragged about being able to properly pronounce the state’s name and proceeded to mispronounce it. In an interview with a local television station, he seemed unfamiliar with a pivotal state issue — the storage of nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain — and said that if China and the United States became engaged in a trade war that hurt Trump’s hotel in Las Vegas and other tourism businesses, he would “cut off relationships with China.” [...]Trump also told the New York Post’s Page Six that he does not plan to bring up Bill Clinton’s sexual history during the debate, something he had threatened to do if Hillary Clinton continues to bring up the disparaging comments he has made about women over the years.

“I want to win this election on my policies for the future, not Bill Clinton’s past,” Trump said in an email to the gossip column. “Jobs, trade, ending illegal immigration, veteran care and strengthening our military is what I really want to be talking about.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fuck these stupid fucking clowns.

Whoa hold on there (kinda self-link)
posted by achrise at 4:35 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump Holds Campaign Rally in Sandown, NH

Wow, there's like 20 people there too!
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Field report: I was just called by Gallup polling on my cell phone, and while they did ask a few election questions (favorable or unfavorable, have you heard about taxes, policies, debates) they did not ask who I was voting for.

Gallup no longer polls the election because they were so shit at it. Real.
posted by Justinian at 4:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Donald is soaking up the energy of his acolytes and on November 8th he'll do battle with Warmaster Hillary. Hillary will be defeated and the Democrats will be forced to flee into the Eye of Terror (Chicago?) but in the battle The Donald will be mortally wounded and Lord Solar Pence will work with the rest of the Republican Party to construct a Golden Throne where the undead Emperor will continue to broadcast his message of hate with the Astronomicon.
posted by vuron at 4:37 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence would make a dreadful president and I would fight tooth and nail to prevent him from being elected. Its a sign of how dreadful Trump is that the thought of Pence actually running things seems slightly better. Its like if I had a choice between living in a supply-side Christian dystopia or a post-nuclear war hell-scape, I'd choose the former.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:40 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mental edit: add "extremist" before "Christian" there.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:41 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Politico Giuliani’s daughter is for Clinton
The younger Giuliani is currently using the campaign’s “H” logo as her profile picture, and posted the #ImWithHer campaign slogan banner as the wallpaper to her page. She has posted multiple photographs and links online, declaring her support for the Democratic nominee. In one photograph of a friend, Jason Lubin, and a pet rabbit, she described the scene as “my handsome guys cheering HRC on in the first debate.”
You think your Dad is tough, imagine trying to talk politics with Rudy.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on October 6, 2016 [36 favorites]


Hrmm if I was forced to choose between Mad Max and Handsmaid Tale I think I'd actually choose the Mad Max future.

At least in the Mad Max future I can ride eternal, shiny and chrome!
posted by vuron at 4:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


check out the venue, teeming with thousands of supporters.

It's an invite-only town-hall meeting, obvious dry run for the debate, except with a right-wing talkshow guy as moderator and some softball questions.

(Also, the Red Sox are playing.)
posted by holgate at 4:44 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Having read A Handmaid's Tale a few times and more than my share of nuclear apocalypse fiction, I think I'd probably take the latter over the former, as a woman. I'd rather trade a much lower chance of survival for the freedom to make my own choices about my body and life. Pence and his ilk scare me a lot more than Trump, in the long run.
posted by Sequence at 4:44 PM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


To be clear, in my vision of a post-nuclear war hell-scape, everyone is dead.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


imagine trying to talk politics with Rudy.

hint: it's like a Punch puppet just snorted a bunch of Adderall and started screaming at you about terrorists and FBI investigations
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:47 PM on October 6, 2016 [16 favorites]


Watching the rally because I hate myself, or something. Here's what he's saying:

Debate commission mic joke again;
"When we do badly, I don't know about polls" (brags about being up in NH);
He's seriously just reading cherry-picked polls. I am having trouble finding some of them on 538;
Disses the media, reads some more polls;
Heroin is a tremendous problem over the country so we're going to build a wall;
Says he's not practicing for the debate, even though he's taking questions from Howie Carr;
Hillary is "resting" not doing debate prep.
posted by Leslie Knope at 4:47 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


"This isn’t practice, it has nothing to do with it."

It's practice.
posted by holgate at 4:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Whoa hold on there (kinda self-link)
posted by achrise at 7:35 PM on October 6 [+] [!]

I assume some of them are good clowns.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's weird how that Katrina Pierson sound bite (So what? They're Muslim.) is all over twitter again even though it is from last December. I imagine there is all sorts of horrible stuff from the Trump campaign that could be re-visted and we could all get outraged again. There has been such an avalanche of shit that we can't really dwell on one thing for too long before the next piece of crap comes down flying out at us so there are probably things that we have forgotten about because they happened last year.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's an invite-only town-hall meeting, obvious dry run for the debate, except with a right-wing talkshow guy as moderator and some softball questions.

I wonder if they might also be thinking of it as a way to get good footage of Trump in a "Town Hall" setting landing zingers in front of a cheering crowd, which can then can then be intercut with footage from the actual town hall debate.
posted by contraption at 4:50 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump's Anti-ISIS Plan Is the Same as...Obama's and Clinton's:
During the vice presidential debate on Tuesday night, when the subject turned to foreign policy, Trump campaign HQ zapped out a press release headlined, "Donald J. Trump's Plan to Defeat ISIS and Make America Safe Again." This was curious, because throughout his presidential bid, Trump has proclaimed that he has a "secret" plan for defeating the murderous Islamic extremist group that controls parts of Iraq and Syria. He has refused to reveal it, claiming that would tip off the enemy. But he has also promised that in the first 30 days of a Trump administration, he would ask the generals for an anti-ISIS plan. Which is confusing because he has also said he knows more about ISIS than the generals and that he would fire most of the generals. Still, at the same time, Trump brags that he does have his own plan that he can share publicly. That's what he sent out and what's posted on his campaign website. Yet here's one big rub: It's essentially the same plan as President Barack Obama's and Hillary Clinton's.
Wait, won't this piss off MacArthur?
"Just go to her website, she tells you how to fight ISIS on her website. I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much," Trump said.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:51 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Good lord, he's pretty much telegraphing that he's going to go after Bill's statement about Obamacare....not that the Clinton campaign wouldn't expect him too, but honestly, wouldn't you just send Bill out on saturday to walk it back in the most forceful terms possible just to take all the wind out of that sail?
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


New PPP polling out of Ohio:

--Hillary Clinton's at 44% to 43% for Donald Trump, 5% for Gary Johnson, and 2% for Jill Stein. If voters had to choose just between Clinton and Trump, Clinton's advantage remains one point at 48/47.

--There continues to be a pervasive feeling among Trump voters that if Hillary Clinton wins the election, it will only be because of voter fraud. 71% of Trump voters say that if Clinton wins it will be because the contest was rigged, to only 13% who grant that it might be because she got the most votes in the election.

-The US Senate election continues to look good for Republicans, with Rob Portman leading Ted Strickland 51-36. Early attacks on Strickland helped Portman to strengthen his position in this race over the summer, and the toll of those is reflected in Strickland's 31/48 favorability rating. But Portman's become a lot more popular in his own right over the course of the campaign, and now sports a 44/32 approval rating.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


qcubed: honestly don't know if I'll ever be able to presume good faith on race/ethnic matters from white Americans i don't know ever again.

I don't anymore. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, is my watchword now. It's better for my mental and physical health. It's a Schrödinger's Racist situation.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Politico Giuliani’s daughter is for Clinton
So remember how Rudy Giuliani dumped his wife via press conference? Literally: he held a press conference to say that he and his wife were separating before he told his wife that their marriage was over? That's Caroline's mother, and she was 11 when it happened. In 2008, she announced her support of Obama when her father was still in the race. She's not Ivanka Trump: she doesn't pretend to have a whole lot of respect for her father or his political positions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [88 favorites]


@OliviaNuzzi Trump has added three Florida campaign events for Tuesday and Wednesday. Gonna get that post-storm bump if it kills him.

Jesus. If Matthew is a Cat 5 he might not have an airport to land at or a venue to speak at or crowds to listen to him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jesus. If Matthew is a Cat 5 he might not have an airport to land at or a venue to speak at or crowds to listen to him.

And, of course, they should be able to worry about rebuilding and recovering without having to create photo ops to satisfy Trump's ego.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:56 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


--There continues to be a pervasive feeling among Trump voters that if Hillary Clinton wins the election, it will only be because of voter fraud. 71% of Trump voters say that if Clinton wins it will be because the contest was rigged, to only 13% who grant that it might be because she got the most votes in the election.

This is absolutely fucking horrifying. Like riots in the streets horrifying.
posted by zachlipton at 4:57 PM on October 6, 2016 [30 favorites]


> trade... isn't a thing with fast, easy, clear-cut answers

One thing pretty quick that she could raise is some choice US manufacturers whose exports would be hurt by a trade war:
Machines, engines, pumps: US$205.8 billion (13.7% of total exports)
Electronic equipment: $169.8 billion (11.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $131.1 billion (8.7%)
Vehicles: $127.1 billion (8.4%)
Oil: $106.1 billion (7.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $83.4 billion (5.5%)
Plastics: $60.3 billion (4%)
Gems, precious metals, coins: $58.7 billion (3.9%)
Pharmaceuticals: $47.3 billion (3.1%)
Organic chemicals: $38.8 billion (2.6%)

Top companies other than oil & gas, computer, soda and tobacco are Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Procter & Gamble, Boeing, AbbVie, Merck & Co. and Eli Lilly & Co.
posted by morganw at 4:57 PM on October 6, 2016


Trump now talking about a meeting he had with Netanyahu...I thought Bibi said no to a meet?
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:58 PM on October 6, 2016


@realDenaldTrump: New Virginia poll-thank you! We're going to show the whole world that I don't know how to do basic math better than anyone!

It's true: he doesn't know how to do basic math better than anyone.
He means this CVOTER poll, which has him up 50%-45%.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:59 PM on October 6, 2016


Jesus. If Matthew is a Cat 5 he might not have an airport to land at or a venue to speak at or crowds to listen to him.

And, of course, they should be able to worry about rebuilding and recovering without having to create photo ops to satisfy Trump's ego.

But think of what they can build with all the Play-Doh he'll bring them!
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


@OliviaNuzzi Trump has added three Florida campaign events for Tuesday and Wednesday. Gonna get that post-storm bump if it kills him.

"In the eye of a hurricane
There is quiet
For just a moment"

Donald: you weren't supposed to take the "just a moment" part literally. Shut up and stay out of Florida for more than a couple of days.
posted by zachlipton at 4:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Nothing like a completely empty photo-op of The Donald delivering about 20 grand worth of relief supplies and then flying off to spend a night at the Mar-a-lago resort (assuming that it isn't directly hit).

But honestly though Trump has to go all in on Florida, it's an absolute must win for him and even with it he's facing some long odds.

In contrast Clinton will be able to point to Obama and FEMA strong management of the likely outcomes.
posted by vuron at 5:00 PM on October 6, 2016


That's DEnald Trump. So, [Fake].
posted by miguelcervantes at 5:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Field report: we switched today from recruiting local volunteers to helping North Carolina work through their lists. (Makes sense, the place was packed and people were still walking in to volunteer.) First list I was given was similar to our local identify support/recruit volunteers script. The second was about ensuring people got their form to request early voting ballots.

I strongly suggest giving it a try. It takes literally a minute or two to get orientated, so even if you've only got an hour you can get meaningful work done. Lots of deadlines coming up, so every hand counts. I was nervous when I started, but after a few calls I was positively glib.

Tips: Bring a charger. I keep meaning to bring headphones but keep forgetting. If you can only pop in, donate some snacks/beverages (someone donated a bottle of wine! I'm guessing for the debate watch party?! Water is a better choice.) I suspect a lot of places could use an extra surge protector strip.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:02 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Isn't that CVoter poll online only? And it's some sort of weird longitudinal poll with "interesting" assumptions around self-selection?
posted by vuron at 5:02 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's DEnald Trump. So, [Fake].

Dang it! I regret the error.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


@ppppolls: One under covered reason Hillary has struggled: sheer sexism. 40% of Trump voters in OH say country is inherently better off w/ a male POTUS
posted by chris24 at 5:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump: Only a hurricane would keep me from debate
posted by kirkaracha at 5:10 PM on October 6, 2016


40% of Trump voters in OH say country is inherently better off w/ a male POTUS

Are the rest Palin fans?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Today in "How Trump and Hitler Are Similar":

Early book praising Hitler may have been written by Hitler, new research says. (@nytimesworld)
posted by melissasaurus at 5:15 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Rick Scott will not extend Florida's registration deadline due to hurricane "Everybody has had plenty of time to register"
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:16 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


@aseitzwald: Rick Scott will not extend reg deadline due to storm, he says at presser, via @MAlexJohnson: "Everybody has had plenty of time to register."

Unlike Scott, the government of SC at least still retains some of their humanity.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:16 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


71% of Trump voters say that if Clinton wins it will be because the contest was rigged, to only 13% who grant that it might be because she got the most votes in the election.

Could the pundits please not ask if Trump voters are going to initiate the purge if HRC wins? Traditionally, when you ask people leading questions, they do tend to answer in the way you have led them.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:18 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump continuing the outreach...

@patrickhealynyt: At his New Hampshire town hall, Trump makes this point about Hispanics in Las Vegas: "Latinos, they like to be called in that area."
posted by chris24 at 5:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


NYT: Donald Trump’s Ventures Began With a Lot of Hype. How Did They Turn Out?

"We analyzed 60 projects announced in the last 10 years. Two-thirds flopped or had problems."

Trump, for his part, contends that some of the apparent failures were successes for him because he got the money for licensing his name up front.
posted by zachlipton at 5:26 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rick Scott will not extend Florida's registration deadline due to hurricane "Everybody has had plenty of time to register"

That's so stupid. Odds are the offices you can register at will be closed tomorrow. So you've just taken a day away that people were supposed to be able to register. So swap that out with a day next week or whatever. People have families and responsibilities and plan things out to get things in by the deadline. If the offices aren't open nearing the deadline, it's not their fault a hurricane came in. Open the damn offices for a day next week.
posted by cashman at 5:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]


538's math doesn't seem to work:

Polls only
Clinton wins popular vote: 84%
Trump wins popular vote but loses Electoral College: 0.7%

Seems to be the ways Clinton can win. That adds up to 84.7%, so why is the top line Clinton 78.4%?

Negligible difference, sure, but shouldn't your own numbers cross-check? It bothers me.
posted by ctmf at 5:38 PM on October 6, 2016


So the Trump event that's happening now is a practice run for the Sunday town hall. He's taking questions from the audience from a small crowd (maybe 100 people tops), even practicing at keeping his answers under two minutes. The questions have been submitted to a moderator type who is reading them off cards. It's a friendly crowd and a friendly moderator.

Example question: what would you say to Hispanic voters who are being deceived by Obama, Clinton and the biased media?

Answer (paraphrased): There's a Hispanic radio show host who says Hispanics love Trump. Just had a big rally in Las Vegas and the Hispanics like to be called Latinos there. Tremendous support there. People here legally don't support illegal immigration. We're going to do great with the African Americans because it's Clinton's fault they live in a hell-hole, and we're going to do great with the Hispanics. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]

Example question 2: I recently graduated college and am having a hard time finding a job, what will you do to bring jobs back?

Answer (paraphrased): It's over 100 degrees in here. The other night I was giving a speech and it was really hot. Somebody dishonest said I was sweating, and we're sweating a little tonight too. It's a problem when people get out of college and are in debt and can't get a job. Massive problem. Our good jobs are gone, other countries are making our product. I want to see the day when we can have those jobs back in our country, I want to see Apple make iPhones in the US. If I'm president, we'll see that happen, we have the best people. I've had bigger rallies than Bernie, who made a deal with the devil, but he was right on trade. We're going to make product again, we have to do that. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]

The questions are basically all feeding his campaign's greatest hits back to him and letting him do a little spoken word poetry about it. He is not ready to take questions from undecided or a skeptical voter. He's not getting anything outside of the rightwing bubble he's been campaigning in for the last year.
posted by peeedro at 5:40 PM on October 6, 2016 [42 favorites]


Clinton wins if she wins the popular vote and doesn't lose the Electoral College, or if Trump wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral College. The probability that Clinton wins the popular vote is 84.0%, the probability that she wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral college is 6.3%, and the probability that Trump wins the popular vote but loses the Electoral College is 0.7%. So the probability that Clinton wins is 84.0% - 6.3% + 0.7% = 78.4%, which checks out.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's not getting anything outside of the rightwing bubble he's been campaigning in for the last year.

Excellent news for the rest of us.
posted by stolyarova at 5:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


ctmf, what you're missing is the horrifying line that says there's a 6.3% chance that Hillary will win the popular vote but lose the electoral college.
posted by chrchr at 5:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh, so the obvious answer. Right. Long day.
posted by ctmf at 5:44 PM on October 6, 2016


He wants to put college grads to work assembling iPhones?
posted by humanfont at 5:45 PM on October 6, 2016 [27 favorites]


The questions are basically all feeding his campaign's greatest hits back to him and letting him do a little spoken word poetry about it. He is not ready to take questions from undecided or a skeptical voter. He's not getting anything outside of the rightwing bubble he's been campaigning in for the last year.

There's going to be so many viral videos of him nailing these questions. How can anyone think he lost the debate?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:45 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Even more damning from that PPP Ohio poll: "To put Trump's unpopularity in the state in perspective, we asked Ohioans whether they have a more favorable opinion of Trump or the University of Michigan- and 'That School Up North' beat out Trump 48/33."

Go Blue!
posted by Existential Dread at 5:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [41 favorites]


Matt Drudge off to tear down the false flag
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [17 favorites]


-- 71% of Trump voters say that if Clinton wins it will be because the contest was rigged, to only 13% who grant that it might be because she got the most votes in the election.

This is absolutely fucking horrifying. Like riots in the streets horrifying.

Far be it from me to defend deplorable Trump supporters, but I think poll questions like this tend to get "root for my team" answers.

In other words, if I sent out a survey saying "Which team do you think is full of cheaters and Criminals, the Broncos or the Cowboys?" the results from Denver would overwhelmingly condemn the Cowboys and the results from Dallas would condemn the Broncos. Not because they really believe the charge, but because they want to show support for their team by picking the "right" answer.

Just like those "Who won the debate" polls. Most people just say "My party's candidate" regardless of what happened.
posted by mmoncur at 5:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Seth Meyers: Chelsea Clinton on Life-Long Family Attacks and Bad '90s Fashion

"I just don't remember a time when this many Americans were being atacked by a major party's nominee"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:03 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh, indeed. You can even get t-shirts emblazoned with such witticisms as Deplorable Lives Matter.
Remember when the Tea Party called themselves "teabaggers" and wore teabags on their heads to rallies, forcing several news anchors to use the phrase "teabaggers" on the nightly news? Good times.
posted by xyzzy at 6:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]


So it's Thursday evening in Sandown, New Hampshire. You think to yourself, what can I do? Everything in the town is closed and it'll take at least half an hour to get to Manchester. So why not pal around with the guy who called for your opponent to be shot for treason?

If you think this is a good idea, you might just be Donald Trump.

Jesus Christ. Do the Rs even disavow terrible people anymore? Open calls for extrajudicial assassination of political opponents aren't enough for you to say "hold the fuck up I don't want you anywhere near me!"?

I hate this election with a fiery passion.
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


For presidential candidates, a town hall debate is a test of stagecraft as much as substance.

Jeez. Can't they just do a town hall where the entire audience is made up of world leaders or something?
posted by snofoam at 6:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


white millennials are the only group that thinks Trump is more trustworthy than Clinton

WHY SNAKE PEOPLE WHY
posted by corb at 6:18 PM on October 6, 2016 [30 favorites]


If they were trustworthy, they'd be badger people. Don't you know your Hogwarts houses?
posted by Trifling at 6:19 PM on October 6, 2016 [15 favorites]


Millenials; bad generation or worst generation?
posted by Yowser at 6:23 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would also support a debate format where each podium was in a large plexiglass box full of snakes.
posted by snofoam at 6:24 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hillary would probably punch Donald in the face to save the snakes. Which wouldn't look nearly as good as if it were bunnies.

(Oh, and Donald would read them a poem)
posted by mmoncur at 6:29 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


He wants to put college grads to work assembling iPhones?

They'll assemble iPhones and like it! Just like Theresa May's young Britons will pick fruits and vegetables.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:35 PM on October 6, 2016 [12 favorites]


Corb: the poll was of only millennials, so it's a "white people" issue more than a "snake people" issue. (Of the millennials polled, only those who are white think trump is more trustworthy.)
posted by melissasaurus at 6:37 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


Just for fun, here's the questions Trump was asked at his practice town hall (which he said wasn't practice):

* Did you hold back on attacking Hillary at the last debate and will you criticize her more this weekend?
* What are the biggest foreign policy failures of the last 15 years?
* what would you say to Hispanic voters?
* How do you define the income range for the middle class?
* What's your plan to bring jobs back?
* Can you assure us that you are going to clean house from the top at the FBI, Justice Department, State Department, VA and in what order do you start? Follow up question, what would you do with Comey?
* What do you say to conservative holdouts to get them to endorse you?
* Are you upset about Pence's debate success?
* What advice would you give to the youths looking to achieve the American Dream?
* Al Baldasaro* asks what are you going to do about the VA?
* Will Hillary Clinton bankrupt social security and medicare by giving benefits to illegals?
* What's your earliest memory as a child?
* Who is going to win the world series?

Everything is either a real softball, or a push-poll type question that dovetails into his basic campaign platform. The only technical question was how to define "middle class" and he dodged by talking about lowering taxes for everyone and cut regulations, because Americans are taxed more than anyone in the world and regulations stop job growth. The answer to the American Dream questions was do what you love and follow your dreams. Deep stuff.
posted by peeedro at 6:39 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


(Of the millennials polled, only those who are white think trump is more trustworthy.)

As a white millennial... Hmm.

Yeah, that makes me feel even worse.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Everything is either a real softball, or a push-poll type question that dovetails into his basic campaign platform.

His ideal debate prep would be for the entire rest of the world to prepare until they could somehow see him as the winner. In reality he would lose even if Ivanka was the moderator and the audience was made entirely of people who believe rap is not actually music.
posted by snofoam at 6:48 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wait. Are those questions real?
posted by schmod at 6:51 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


White Millenials especially white male millenials are typically blind to their own privilege and if they have experienced difficulties in various arenas a certain degree of anger happens when you point out their inherent privilege.

It takes true empathy to actually visualize how much more difficult your life would've been if not for your gender, or racial background, or class background, etc. And unfortunately teaching empathy isn't something that we do a particularly good job on.
posted by vuron at 6:51 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Corb: the poll was of only millennials,

Oh, thank god. I was like, what the hell is wrong with Kids These Days?

In other news, McMullin is saying Stein has agreed to debate but Johnson won't return his calls.
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wait. Are those questions real?

Yes. Hey, it's a step up from the last town hall.
posted by Talez at 6:53 PM on October 6, 2016


Real, paraphrased, but for real.
posted by peeedro at 6:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rosie O'Donnell was written a poem, 8 million to one, about her chance meeting Ivanka. It is one might fine piece of writing. Stunning.
posted by vac2003 at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [37 favorites]


The only thing they didn't ask was "Mr. Burns Trump, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?"
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wait until Jill Stein finds out that McMullin is a real-life pretend candidate, just like her, and not just a telemarketer like she thought when she accepted the invitation.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know who else promised to usher in a white millennium?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:02 PM on October 6, 2016


Oh to be a fly on the wall at the Ghouliani house this thanksgiving. His daughter is with her.
posted by Talez at 7:03 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rosie O'Donnell was written a poem, 8 million to one, about her chance meeting Ivanka. It is one might fine piece of writing. Stunning.

For those that missed it, Rosie tweeted this earlier [twitter link]:
@IvankaTrump in a city of 8 million - we meet face 2 face - i thank u 4 listening - mother 2 mother - on this new years week - my best 2 u

Here's the clip of Rosie 10 years ago, calling Trump out as a snake-oil salesman, which he's never been able to let go.
posted by airish at 7:06 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


Eric Trump becomes second Trump to appear on radio show with ties to white nationalism

Gotta fire up the base I guess.
posted by chris24 at 7:11 PM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


white millennials are the only group that thinks Trump is more trustworthy than Clinton

That's not even what the survey says, it says that a bit more White people 18-30 said Trump was trustworthy (26%) than said Hillary was trustworthy (21%), so at least 53% said both were untrustworthy. From those who saw both as trustworthy (few, I imagine) or both as untrustworthy (most in this survey, and at least half across all surveyed races except Black, still at least 45%), the survey makes no effort to divine which of the two they saw as more trustworthy. It's an interesting question, 'cause my trustometer clamps at 0 and my brain has a hard time even to start thinking about which is least trustworthy, so the wording got me curious to see what others thought.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:25 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been doing more data entry (hi rorgy!) than phone banking, but thanks to the automated dialer, they didn't need me for data entry yesterday, so I put in some of that time making calls.

It was my best phone-banking session ever.

I got to talk to more actual people (although there were still LOTS of calls that just hit voicemail) and they were all GREAT. I got one extremely polite, sweet, 90-year-old lady who, when I asked we could count on her support for Hillary, just said, "No, thank you," and hung up. The other folks I spoke with were all enthusiastic.

The best thing? They've added a bit to the script where you can encourage the person you called to do some calls from home - and everybody I spoke with was interested! A lot of them were older folks that I might not ordinarily expect to be excited about using the computer to make calls from home, but they all sounded excited at the idea.

So I say to you - MeFites! You, too, can do this! Make calls from home! Make calls on your breaks! Make calls while you're waiting for your friends to join you for brunch! It's insanely easy, and it can really make you feel better about who's voting and how much support is out there. And it can help break down stereotypes. 72-year-old guy in coal country? Totally voting for Hillary, and would like a yard sign.

(And if you have some anxiety about making calls, please believe me - you will get a LOT of voicemail. But it still counts as a call!)

You can pick the states you want to call, and they even have special set-ups for various demographics - I did some calls for the Women Together campaign (but I skipped the Millenials Calling Millenials because I don't think I'm a millenial. Although I do like snakes).

AND! They've added a States button, so you can choose to work on state campaigns if you want some variety from the Hillary calls.

Really and truly. If you're ever feeling worried about the election, make a few calls. Not only will you feel better because you've done something - you'll also feel better when you talk to someone you've never met in another state who is looking forward to voting for Hillary.

P.S. corb, one reason I'm actively volunteering this year instead of just voting is because of you. Thank you for going to the convention, and thank you for being part of these threads.
posted by kristi at 7:27 PM on October 6, 2016 [87 favorites]


I honestly don't think there's really anything else that can be done. Like the debates, anybody who can be convinced already has been. I don't see that changing anymore when it comes to race.

I hear you. I've felt a lot of the same things, even if it has to be at some much lower level since it's not me getting fucked over by it. I don't mean that in an I-don't-care way, only that however much this shit pains me it must pain the non-anglos getting hurt by it even more.

I can think of a few rays of hope, if you want them. One is that even if we know that there are a lot of white folks with some nasty shit in their hearts, these motherfuckers can be cowed. All those dickbags treating people like shit this year who weren't last year can, at least in principle, be made to understand that this sort of shit doesn't fly and go back to leaving the overt awfulness to the klanners. Which means you'll still know that some of the people dealing with you politely enough resent having to, but at least they'll be actually treating you better. If that helps.

And I gotta tell you that as someone who spent a lot of time in the south from the 80s through to 07, I've seen real changes, a lot of which are hard to take back. I mean, you go down south now, and at least in metro areas interracial couples are boringly normal now, and there are SO MANY old farts who may well have marched against integration back in the 60s/70s who have black-by-their-standards grandkids. The broad acceptance of this has been almost as surprising to me as the recent rush of acceptance of queer stuff. Change can be glacial and canalized into small areas, but it happens.

Small things, I know.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:28 PM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]


have either Trump or Pence ever given any examples of Clinton's so-called "insult-driven campaign"?

It's just Trump's Mirror in action again. Their campaign has used like a trillion different insults in practically every one of Trump's speeches. So they are worried about being attacked on that basis. So they preemptively attack the other campaign on the exact thing they are worried about being attacked on.

It's supposed to be "good campaign strategy" (if you're Karl Rove, Jeff Roe, or that ilk) because it disarms potential attacks on you by turning them into "he said/she said" with no clear winner, and because you are turning the opponents positives into a negative ala the Swift Boat technique.

It's good to see this kind of B.S. go down in flames once in a while--maybe it will make future candidates and "strategists" think a bit before deploying similar strategies in the future.
posted by flug at 7:28 PM on October 6, 2016


In other news, McMullin is saying Stein has agreed to debate but Johnson won't return his calls.

to be fair, Johnson probably has no idea who he is
posted by Existential Dread at 7:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [25 favorites]


Honestly, as a pasty-ass grade-A certified whiteboy, I think this is just you waking up to what was always sadly true.


I really don't mean this in a rude way, but are you telling a PoC as a white person that they are just waking up to racism you already knew about?
posted by zutalors! at 7:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


to be fair, Johnson probably has no idea who he is

Johnson has him confused with his cousin Croissan'wich.
posted by dersins at 7:34 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's helpful to have other PoC in these threads, for whatever that's worth.
posted by zutalors! at 7:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jesus Christ. Do the Rs even disavow terrible people anymore? Open calls for extrajudicial assassination of political opponents aren't enough for you to say "hold the fuck up I don't want you anywhere near me!"?

Right on. America's leaders would never institute a program of extra-judicial assassinations of other Americans with unpopular political views. That would be beyond the pale!
posted by indubitable at 7:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


There are those people who will be thoroughly and wholly unsurprised to read this, but during a concert on Wednesday, U2 took a moment at the intro to Bullet the Blue Sky to comment on the election and sass back at a video of Trump.

And yeah, it is kind of a return to the old-school Joshua-Tree era Bono where he waxes rhapsodic about a romantic view of America, and you kind of suspect that Adam or Larry are inwardly cringing and wishing he'd rein it in a little, but...i really kinda don't mind this time, y'know?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:50 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Can we please have a McMuffin / Stein / Johnson debate? And can the moderator be Al Franken or Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert (the character from his old show)?

It's so hard to find good comedy relief in this election.

(Because one of the jokes has way too good of a chance of being elected.)
posted by mmoncur at 7:52 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Right on. America's leaders would never institute a program of extra-judicial assassinations of other Americans with unpopular political views. That would be beyond the pale!

I hereby promote you to grade 37.
posted by Talez at 7:54 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rosie O'Donnell was written a poem, 8 million to one, about her chance meeting Ivanka. It is one might fine piece of writing. Stunning.
i wrote a book once
about bashert
the concept of
meant to be

it has comforted me
on my darkest days
when my inner voices scream
u deserved it

as her father has
same as my own
It kind of kills me whenever I think too hard about what it must feel like to her to have Trump take such delight in insulting her personally in front of 100 million (?) viewers, and hear him claim that no one would care or disagree. On the minuscule chance she ever sees this, I love you Ro, you are a better person than Trump in every respect, your craft projects have always awed and delighted me, and thanks for telling my mom to go buy us Harry Potter.
posted by sallybrown at 7:54 PM on October 6, 2016 [66 favorites]


Oh, thank god. I was like, what the hell is wrong with Kids These Days?

The kids are doing fine. Millennials, especially people of color, are overwhelmingly supporting Clinton, higher than any other age group. White millennials are split 50/50 for Clinton but that is better than any other age group of whites.
posted by JackFlash at 8:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]


And for another pop-culture tie-in...

#bunniesforhillary is now a thing on Twitter, and even has a celebrity endorser (Constance Wu quite likes rabbits).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just to add a little context about our fuckhead governor not extending the voter registration deadline, Pretty Good Florida Journalists Marc Caputo and Matt Dixon put it right in the first sentence:

TALLAHASSEE — Florida Gov. Rick Scott, the chairman of the super PAC backing Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, has refused to extend the Tuesday deadline for voter registration as requested by Hillary Clinton’s campaign due to Hurricane Matthew.

I don't see Florida's attorney general Pam Bondi investigating anytime soon.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:21 PM on October 6, 2016 [27 favorites]


(Meant to link to THIS above!)
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:31 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


That U2 video feels like about the same level as the SNL overwrought social justice theatre kids sketch, buuuuut that's still so very many levels above what Trump's doing so I'll let it pass.
posted by ckape at 8:34 PM on October 6, 2016


Best election photo of the year

This picture is at the top of the subreddit /r/photoshopbattles.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:46 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Can we please have a McMuffin / Stein / Johnson debate? And can the moderator be Al Franken or Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert (the character from his old show)?

Which is the best breakfast fast food, Burger King Cinni-minis, Hardees pancake, McDonalds sausage McMuffin, Chick-fil-a chicken biscuit? Mr. McMuffin, your question.

Upcoming questions include:

Vaccines: are they real?
Name a foreign capital city. Or really any foreign city.
What is the point of government on Earth, when the Constitution of Mars hasn't even been written?
Name a person of color that you have personally talked to in the last 12 months.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:51 PM on October 6, 2016 [19 favorites]


If you asked me to list people whose opinion I ever wanted to hear on any topic, I would literally never ever get around to saying Bono.
posted by threeturtles at 9:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


I really don't mean this in a rude way, but are you telling a PoC as a white person that they are just waking up to racism you already knew about?

No, really just agreeing with qcubed. Not "Dude, you are a doofus for not seeing this," since his or her other comments in several threads related to race make that clear. Just "Yeah, white folks have always been this bad collectively." I probably should have said something more like "...just admitting to yourself what you've known has always been true" or something that like.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:17 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


U2 were playing at/for Dreamforce, which is the conference that vies with Oracle World for most OMFG Why Make It Stop among my friends who live in SF.

OTOH, I think EmpressCallipygos is right that U2's Idea of America during that late 80s period is worth revisiting, just for calibration purposes. Expansive beyond the European imagination within its borders, but also mindful of the impact of expansiveness outside its borders.
posted by holgate at 9:41 PM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just caught up! I'm feeling optimistic, warmed by stories of bunnies and Jo.

In today's mail I received the Trump mailer. I'm considering covering it with bunny stickers and sending it back.
posted by mochapickle at 9:43 PM on October 6, 2016 [10 favorites]


Bullshitico piece on the dry run town hall makes clear that even if it was meant to be a dry run, Trump never let that happen.
posted by holgate at 9:47 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Palm Beach Daily News: How will Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago withstand Hurricane Matthew’s winds?
Anchored to the coral below it, Marjorie Merriweather Post’s 89-year-old estate also has 3-foot thick walls.
It was built very well for the original owner, and currently well maintained too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


From that politico piece posted by holgate:

“I said forget debate prep. I mean, give me a break,” Trump said at one point. “Do you really think that Hillary Clinton is debate-prepping for three or four days. Hillary Clinton is resting, okay?”

Holy shit he believes his own bullshit, doesn't he?

Absolutely yes HRC is debate prepping for three or four days. She's been debate prepping for 3 or 4 decades.

This is going to be amazing to watch.
posted by dis_integration at 9:56 PM on October 6, 2016 [75 favorites]


She is going to win so much she will be sick and tired of winning.
posted by mochapickle at 9:58 PM on October 6, 2016 [46 favorites]


See above from the Marley Dias interview: "I got to plan all the events I would have pushed for as [high school] president. (One of them was a mock presidential debate, if you can believe that!)"

She's been debate prepping since she was at least a high school senior.
posted by zachlipton at 9:59 PM on October 6, 2016 [21 favorites]


By the time this is all over, Trump is going to be sick and tired of winning whining.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:01 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


The CNN fight club boxing promotion debate commercial shows this one clip of Hillary nonverbally responding to "She has been fighting ISIS her entire adult life!!!!!" I laugh out loud every time I see it. She just has this incredulous but delighted thing going on that slays me.
posted by xyzzy at 10:06 PM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]


He's going to complain that NWS didn't do a forecast for the debate.

(And it's not as if this hasn't been reported: Hillary's prep sessions go on for five hours.)
posted by holgate at 10:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


More from the Politico piece:
The format was nothing like what Trump will face in St Louis, when half the questions will be posed by uncommitted voters, and the candidates will have two minutes to respond to each question as Martha Raddatz of ABC and Anderson Cooper of CNN serve as moderators.
...
And while Sunday’s debate will stretch for 90 minutes without a bathroom break, Trump bolted from his town hall in Sandown after barely more than one-third of that time.

Trump’s campaign did place a two-minute countdown clock in front of their candidate on Thursday. He repeatedly blew past that time limit anyway.
...
He now appears headed into Sunday’s debate in St. Louis at Washington University without similar preparation for the town-hall format that could be even more grueling. On the trail, Trump has largely eschewed town halls in favor of large-scale rallies where he now almost exclusively relies upon a teleprompter. He has also, for the most part, avoided media interviews with all but the friendliest national reporters and the local press.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:12 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's one less brick in a previously monolithic wall that you really don't want people to start mortaring.

On that note, here's an economically progressive, culturally conservative third party-in-formation by The Tennessean - "American Solidarity Party for change"

Michael Maturen is a Catholic writer, a businessman, a grass roots political activist, a former evangelical Anglican priest and a professional magician.

Seeking the presidency of the United States may not have been the next logical move for this self-proclaimed “nobody” from the tiny town of Harrisville, Mich., on Lake Huron.

“I’m a magician, I sell cars and I’m running for president,” said Maturen, laughing. “I am not delusional. People in the American Solidarity Party don’t think we can win the presidency. Our goal is to promote the ideas behind our party and the idea that it’s time to change our political system. ... Two parties are not enough when you look at the reality of modern America.”

I suppose it's good that there's actual third party candidates who are willing to admit that.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:10 PM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]


Third party lovers will be thrilled to hear that the Koch brothers have been working on a campaign to get various Constitutional amendments passed. Their main priority has been an amendment requiring a balanced federal budget, but there have been murmurings that they want the Electoral College gone.
posted by xyzzy at 12:04 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


there have been murmurings that they want the Electoral College gone.

And I want the brothers gone. Maybe we can work something out.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:16 AM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


That's great to hear that Trump's triumph over Jeb has been so total that the Koch bros. are now so unhinged they're burning their money in even more hopelessly pointless ways
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


kristi: So I say to you - MeFites! You, too, can do this!

I'm not at all sad about not living in the USA, but I am a little bit sad about not being able to help with this.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently they've gone insane trying to buy Harry Reid's seat. But what they really seem to want is to be able to form their own party; they disagree with some, but not all, of the social conservatism at the heart of the Republican party and their efforts to back Libertarian candidates only works for local politics. Those dudes scare me.
posted by xyzzy at 12:35 AM on October 7, 2016


Election Update: Clinton’s Lead Is Becoming Safer

Also contains some interesting information about why FiveThirtyEight's model has generally had a higher degree of uncertainty than some of the others.
posted by kyrademon at 2:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


NYTimes: When Donald Trump Went to Washington and Got Himself a Tax Break
Speaking in a flurry of words, without notes, Donald J. Trump painted the matter in apocalyptic terms. Unless Congress did as he urged, he said, the United States would face catastrophe. “We are not different right now than the Soviet Union,” Mr. Trump said. “They have no incentive, and we have no incentive.”

It was late in 1991, and Mr. Trump was sitting before a special panel in Washington’s Cannon House Office Building. His pitch: for lawmakers to relax tax rules that Mr. Trump said had strangled the real estate industry and left the country mired in depression.

His testimony that day was a rare — if utterly Trumpian — public foray into Washington lobbying for him. And in less than two years, as part of a wide-ranging budget deal, Congress passed a set of provisions that stood to be enormously lucrative to Mr. Trump and the rest of the real estate industry, which lobbied broadly for the changes.
WashPo: Trump personally lobbied Congress to give real estate developers bigger tax breaks
In 1986, President Ronald Reagan and Congress came together to pass a landmark tax reform bill that streamlined tax brackets, cut rates, closed loopholes and eliminated tax breaks. Reagan declared it “a sweeping victory for fairness.”

Donald Trump, however, wanted the loopholes and tax breaks back. In testimony before a House Budget Committee task force in November 1991, Trump called the 1986 tax reform legislation an “absolute catastrophe” that had pushed the real estate business into an “absolute depression.”

To fix the situation, Trump advocated a combination of higher tax rates for the rich and the restoration of special exemptions for real estate investment. Together, they would incentivize people seeking to lower their tax bills to invest in real estate. Trump called for accelerated depreciation of property and rules that encouraged certain investors to seek out “passive losses” that could offset their other income and slash their steep tax bills. Trump cited wealthy dentists as the typical investor he hoped to attract.
posted by peeedro at 2:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guardian: Donald Trump the clear winner in New Hampshire debate featuring only himself
Donald Trump prepared for Sunday’s town hall-style debate with Hillary Clinton by insisting he wasn’t preparing for it.
posted by parm at 2:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


I wonder if nesting birds get nervous around Rick Scott. Like, "Is this asshole going to unhinge his jaw and swallow my young whole?"
posted by indubitable at 2:52 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Speaking in a flurry of words, without notes, Donald J. Trump painted the matter in apocalyptic terms. Unless Congress did as he urged, he said, the United States would face catastrophe. “We are not different right now than the Soviet Union,” Mr. Trump said. “They have no incentive, and we have no incentive.”

Do I understand this correctly: Millionaires, like Trump, need tax breaks that funnel back millions to them, in order to create "incentives" that let them stay sufficiently "motivated", whereas the hoi polloi, like us, should be sufficiently "motivated" by minimum wage?
posted by sour cream at 3:19 AM on October 7, 2016 [50 favorites]


First I get to feel empathy for Trump and then Koch bros come up with something good?

Weird times.
posted by farlukar at 3:21 AM on October 7, 2016


Millionaires, like Trump, need tax breaks that funnel back millions to them, in order to create "incentives" that let them stay sufficiently "motivated"

Sorta, watching the c-span footage (Trump is on from about 1:20 to 2:15 and the second half of that is just speechifying from congressmen), what he's saying is that real estate developers need easier access to other people's money. He advocates for a return to higher top-end marginal tax rates to encourage the wealthy to invest money instead of sending it to the IRS, and then changes to passive losses and depreciation schedules to reduce the risk if that money is put into real estate investment. So he's saying that the tax code should funnel more money to real estate developers while letting them pay less in taxes. The implication is pretty clear now that he's running for president, he thinks the government should make it as easy as possible for him to make money at anyone else expense. That is pure genius at work.

He doesn't engage with any details or numbers, there's no indication that he has anything but the shallowest knowledge of the subject. When asked how high top tax rates should go he dodges and lists off numbers of how high they were before changes in 1986. There are some parts of his testimony that are familiar, there is the good ol' Trump neg. He sells his ideas by first negging and catastrophizing the current state of affairs (it's not a recession but a depression, and if we don't fix these tax codes "we're not going to have a country any more"). There's also the mysterious friends, a guy who can't sell his perfect building and the largest construction firm in NYC that tells him they have no upcoming projects planned. On the whole, he is calm and breezy and it's fascinating to me to watch him inhabit an entirely different persona than his current campaign personality.
posted by peeedro at 4:15 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Has this been posted? From the '88 election:
He wanted to keep his options open. (Though not totally open: The New York developer Donald Trump mentioned his availability as a vice presidential candidate to Lee Atwater. Bush thought the overture 'strange and unbelievable.')
I think the source is Meacham's biography of HW.
posted by sallybrown at 4:28 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


That is pure genius at work.

Rudy?
posted by indubitable at 4:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


On the whole, he is calm and breezy and it's fascinating to me to watch him inhabit an entirely different persona than his current campaign personality.

As you say, there are some of the elements we see today, but to a far lesser degree. Seeing this makes me even more certain he has some cognitive issues today, either because of drug-use or dementia.
posted by mumimor at 4:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Guys I just thought of the perfect comeback Hillary could use if Trump goes with the "what was in those emails you deleted" stuff again -

"Donald, you do know that those emails about how to enlarge your penis are just spam, right?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:36 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


there have been murmurings that they want the Electoral College gone.

And I want the brothers gone. Maybe we can work something out.

We're likely only going to have to put up with them for another 10 -15 years so there is that at least.
posted by Jalliah at 4:49 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Have we all seen "Voters Reveal Their American Dreams" yet? (contains swears)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:58 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Those deleted emails would probably show us just how callously our Secretary of State treated foreign dignitaries. That Nigerian prince tried to reach her so many times, and never got the dignity of a response, much less the bank acount number he so desperately needed!
posted by jackbishop at 5:00 AM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Honestly, fun as those snappy comebacks might be, this race has been coarsened enough for a lifetime. I would like her to preserve her dignity.
posted by corb at 5:13 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


Screaming "POWER! Unlimited power!" as she shoots lightning from her fingers is the very definition of dignity.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:20 AM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


but there have been murmurings that they want the Electoral College gone.

We Liberals have been tilting at that windmill for a decade.
posted by Talez at 5:47 AM on October 7, 2016


Trump can't keep his excuses straight.

NYT: Donald Trump Adjusts His Complaints About Debate Microphone

There's basically zero chance he doesn't whine about this Sunday, so I hope, as some have mentioned, that Clinton just leans into her mic after he does and casually says "Donald, would you like to switch mics? I'm fine with either."
posted by chris24 at 5:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump’s campaign did place a two-minute countdown clock in front of their candidate on Thursday. He repeatedly blew past that time limit anyway.

If they don't make him adhere to the time limit then it will be pointless.

Of course if they do he'll pull the accusation from The Shining on us. "First you tried to run me over on my bike and then you set the timer ahead and then you tried to stab me to death but I still don't stutter."
posted by winna at 5:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


We're likely only going to have to put up with them for another 10 -15 years so there is that at least.

What happens if we discover the singularity and they use their riches to buy immortality what then hot shot
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The New York State GOP is paying for pro-Trump mailers being sent all over the United States.

Found one of these in my mailbox yesterday. I'm in Ohio.
posted by zakur at 5:59 AM on October 7, 2016


I'm hoping that Hillary will crack 80% in the 538 polls-only model today. As I write this, she's hovering at 78.8% chance-to-win. I'm also looking for Arizona to go blue; it's at 44.3% right now, with the only two polls of the state taken since the first presidential debate both showing her well in the lead. I expect one more strong poll in that state would push her over the 50% mark, which would make the blue part of The Snake a good bit longer. I do put a lot of stock in 538's modeling (I have less faith in their punditry) and the bigger Clinton's safety buffer gets in their charts, the better I'll feel about things.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:07 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thank you, peeedro, for covering last night's town hall. I especially loved the list of questions.

If you, like me, can't get enough of Trump's mock town hall here is The Daily Beast's take on the event. Donald Trump Holds Make-Believe Town Hall to Prep for Real Debate
And then there was Lara. “I thought you needed a fun question!” she said, as if he had even broken a sweat answering the others. Carr then read her question for her: “What’s one of your earliest memories as a child?” She added, Carr said, “go Donald!”

Trump said he sat at his father’s knee while he worked in his office, “I’d be playing with blocks” and “it was always so vivid.” So vivid that his kids often repeat the same anecdote about their own childhoods.

It was then that Trump overheard negotiations, which was instructive for him as a young boy.

The night ended with a note card being passed from Carr to Trump.

Trump read it: “Oh, the World Series!” he said. “Look, oh—of course it’s Boston!” He threw the card in the air and smile the big, wide smile of a man who has no fucking idea that this is not the sort of prep that will sufficiently prepare him for a presidential debate that he desperately needs to win if he wants to retain any hope of beating Clinton on November 8.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Donald? Are you satisfied with your microphone? I want to make sure you're very happy."
posted by wabbittwax at 6:15 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Bad Lip Reading, Debate Night!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 AM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I also have some kleenex if you need any."
posted by wabbittwax at 6:16 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Honestly, fun as those snappy comebacks might be, this race has been coarsened enough for a lifetime. I would like her to preserve her dignity.

I've long been weirded out by the Hillary fanfiction in these threads - imagining sick burns she could deliver, writing little vignettes about "oh snap" exchanges we want to see in upcoming debates (or wish we'd seen in the last one), etc.

It treats a serious matter as mere entertainment, displays a Red Team vs. Blue Team mentality, advocates incivility and zingers over dignity and substance, indulges in a cult of personality, and gives up on the debates (or political discourse in general) ever being anything substantial or meaningful. I hate it when the "other" side does those things, and I'm not any fonder of it when "my" side does it.

I'm not trying to be all "NO JOKING ALLOWED" - you almost *have* to laugh at the absurdity of the last year. Just sayin', it kinda creeps me out when people treat politics the same way they approach pop-culture fandoms.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [77 favorites]




I've long been weirded out by the Hillary fanfiction in these threads

I'm glad you said something, I'm sick of the fanfic too.
posted by zutalors! at 6:22 AM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


The Washington Post's take: Trump slams broad array of people while speaking to a friendly town-hall audience
SANDOWN, N.H. — Donald Trump lashed out against a broad array of people at a town hall-style event staged before a friendly audience here Thursday night.

He attacked Hillary Clinton, alleging with no evidence that when the Democratic nominee says she is preparing for debates, she is actually “resting.” He went after Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), who does not support him. He knocked journalists John Harwood and John King, as well as the media in general and even the Commission on Presidential Debates.[...]

Conservative radio host Howie Carr moderated the event. Asked by Carr whether he wanted to be told when his two minutes allotted for answering each question were up, Trump quipped: “If I’m doing well, don’t call me.”[...]

He said that at his first debate with Clinton, he “did hold back” from lobbing “inappropriate” personal attacks.

The Republican nominee repeatedly mentioned the heroin epidemic that has hit New Hampshire especially hard and emphasized his hard-line approach to border security as a means for fighting the flow of drugs.

“I promise the people of New Hampshire we are going to stop this crap from coming into your state,” he said.
He makes promises so easily without ever giving a thought as to how they will be funded and whether or not they are possible. Lately he has been telling his rally crowds "I'll make all your dreams come true" which is the most amazing statement by any Presidential candidate ever.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Can someone explain to me what Trump's "poll watchers" are planning on looking for? I mean from a practical standpoint what's step 2 after "go to the polling places"? If they're looking for the imagined, mythical multiple voting, how do they plan on confirming a person has already gone to a different polling place?
posted by bluecore at 6:28 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can someone explain to me what Trump's "poll watchers" are planning on looking for? I mean from a practical standpoint what's step 2 after "go to the polling places"? If they're looking for the imagined, mythical multiple voting, how do they plan on confirming a person has already gone to a different polling place?

1) Black person votes
2) All black people look the same
3) Voter fraud!
posted by Talez at 6:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


Lately he has been telling his rally crowds "I'll make all your dreams come true" which is the most amazing statement by any Presidential candidate ever.

Know who else said that?
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I too am a bit weirded out by the fanfic, but I've put it down to cultural differences between myself and the people doing the writing. I guess I've been assuming that maybe for people who are immersed in pop-culture fandom, writing fanfic about the debates is substantive engagement. However, as someone who actively avoids pop-culture (no value judgement there, it's just not healthy for me) it does feel a bit weird. On the other hand, I know that even I have been prone to speculate about strategy and tactics in the debates and in the wider campaign, and I try to look at the fanfic stuff through that lens. I'd be interested to hear more of an inside view on that phenomenon though, as I'm sure I'm missing stuff since I'm definitely an outsider and don't really know a lot about what fandom looks like from inside.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's fun to speculate about what she might say, but most of the supposed 'sick burns' suggested in this thread would simply play horribly as political advertising. It's been clear for months that Clinton's strategy is to be the calm, reasonable, adult one in the race. She's not going to compromise that strategy by throwing out petty insults, because being the grownup is working.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [53 favorites]


So I am going to predict that Trump will do very poorly on Sunday night. He will not answer the questions. He will talk past his time limit and talk over the moderators. He will not appear natural in his movements; he will either stay in his seat or will walk around aggressively and in a clumsy manner. He will flub the interaction with at least one person from the audience by correcting them or belittling them in some way. He will begin to physically lag around the 30 minute mark and either become belligerent or sullen. And finally he will lose patience and start bad mouthing people such as Alicia Machado or Tim Kaine or Megyn Kelly.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump said he sat at his father’s knee while he worked in his office, “I’d be playing with blocks” and “it was always so vivid.” So vivid that his kids often repeat the same anecdote about their own childhoods.

His complete answer on that question was classic Trump word salad. It went like, "I was at my father's knee listening and he was always negotiating. That's what we need, because you all saw the story on tv about the fighter jets our people are flying that are so old that they don't even make spare parts for them. We have to go to plane graveyards and museums to get parts. We need a strong military. We need to protect our 2nd amendment. We need to take care of our vets. We need borders. We need great education, get rid of common core. John Sununu agrees with me -- United States Supreme Court. We lost a great Justice. Scalia, great Justice. We need great Justices to uphold the constitution. Hillary Clinton will change our country. That's important. Defense is important. We have to stop people coming in who are looking to do us harm, Hillary wants them to come in 550% more. We are going to make america great again." [APPLAUSE]

That's how he answered a softball question about his childhood, random sloganeering. He is unable to depict himself as someone any human can relate to.
posted by peeedro at 6:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [56 favorites]


bluecore, I think the prevailing view is that they're not meant to do anything other than stand around and look intimidating, maybe provoke some confrontations with black voters. There's been nothing to suggest that Trump is making any kind of good-faith plea for more integrity in our electoral process, so it really makes no sense to try to analyze it from that angle.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've long been weirded out by the Hillary fanfiction in these threads
I'm sick of the fanfic too.


Anticipating a likely Trump statement and/or attack and game planning a response that will trigger Donald and mess with his dominance game, as well as play well with the audience is a good strategy and I'm sure the Clinton campaign is actually doing it. Not sure how my earlier post, if that's what you're referring to, rises to the level of fanfic.
posted by chris24 at 6:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


That's amazing, peedro. Stream of consciousness as political dialog. I just can't even.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Poll watching is a legitimate thing, and the Democrats do it, too. For instance, if a poll worker were deliberately slowing down the line by spending five minutes checking each voter's ID, a poll watcher might contact the right authorities to intervene. Trump is clearly trying to harass voters under the guise of poll watching, which is a thing that Republicans have been doing for a while.

I think it may backfire, because it's a good argument for voting early, and convincing Democrats to vote early is a huge part of Democratic get-out-the-vote strategy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:36 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Third-Party Voting is the Height of White Privilege
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:37 AM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy, that sounds pretty spot on to me. I expect Sunday's debate to play out more or less exactly as you describe.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:37 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


The whole point of the Trump campaign exhorting people to be poll watchers is to put belligerent, possibly armed white racists at majority-minority polling places. They can smirk and shrug when the inevitable happens- "we never told anybody to do that!"
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


3 in 10 Trump Supporters Wish Pence Was Running for President

Not the Onion.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking of poll-watchingvoter suppression: Wake NC GOP Party Organizing Poll Observers, Raising Specter of “Alinsky-esque” Voter Fraud; “They Will Stop at Nothing”

These people are racists, pure and simple, and because NC is open-carry they may very well be armed. Combined with apocalyptic language like this from actual GOP officials, they will be angry. I don't trust the cops in this case (law enforcement from state police down to local deputies have a very long history of siding with or ignoring the actions of white supremacists), so this bullshit needs to be shut down by the feds ASAP.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:42 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


So the UK has been getting Trumped through the back door. The tories have gone full blown Trumpist over the past few days.

“Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals."

"Never again let left wing activist human rights lawyers harass the bravest of the brave, the men and women of our armed forces"

Foreign docs can only stay until they have enough Brits

Foreign LSE experts advice no longer wanted

Amber Rudd vows to stop migrants 'taking jobs British people could do' and force companies to reveal number of foreigners they employ

Radio presenter James O’Brien says the Home Secretary’s proposals for firms to declare foreign workers would be ‘enacting chapter two’ of the Nazi leader’s book

Liam Fox: EU nationals in UK one of 'main cards' in Brexit negotiations (YESTERDAY!)

Gavin Barwell told the Conservative conference in Birmingham that he wanted the private sector to “innovate” to solve the housing crisis and that relaxing the rules on how cramped a flat can be might stop young people from being priced out.

The Trump disease has metastasized and is now endemic to the UK.
posted by Talez at 6:43 AM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


Raising Specter of “Alinsky-esque” Voter Fraud

Even knowing how it happened (and indeed watching it in real time), the sudden fear of Saul Alinsky, 30 years after he died, is deeply weird.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:45 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


chris24, I can't speak to anyone else's intended meaning but I know I didn't have you (or anyone in particular) in mind when I made my own comment. I was more talking about a general phenomenon that I've noticed ever since I started compulsively ctrl+Ring these threads about two weeks back. There has been a lot of sort of armchair quarterbacking the Clinton campaign, which is understandable and something that I've even participated in, but it has at times dipped into something that I recognize as fanfic and which feels a bit weird to me. Sometimes commenters themselves have described their efforts as fanfic, for that matter. For my own part, I was definitely speaking in generalities rather than pointing toward any specific examples.

I'm also not trying to condemn the election fanfic phenomenon, I'm more just expressing discomfort with it and trying to solicit an explanation from the perspective of someone who is more immersed in the subculture from which that stuff arises.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:45 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lol "how can I best browbeat people into not exercising their right to express their preference?"

Not sure it should be read that way.

White nationalist thugs will feel empowered to assault and berate African Americans, gays, Muslims, and anyone else not like them. Housing discrimination will run rampant. (After all, if the president can decide not to rent to minorities, so can everyone else, right?) The police will feel more empowered than ever to profile and harass people of color. Gender equity will be set back decades as fat-shaming and slut-shaming will become acceptable in everyday discourse.

Is it worth that to make a “statement?”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:46 AM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Perhaps y'all can take the conversation about the fanfic and jokes to the existing MetaTalk thread?
posted by zombieflanders at 6:47 AM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Oh, it's not sudden. The right is obsessed with Saul Alinsky. It's bizarre, and I don't entirely understand what it's about.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:47 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lol "how can I best browbeat people into not exercising their right to express their preference?"

Well since the self-evident appeal to empathy and common sense didn't work...
posted by Talez at 6:47 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Oh, it's not sudden. The right is obsessed with Saul Alinsky.

It was sudden (to my experience) with Obama. I grew up surrounded by conservative thought and never heard his name once prior to 2008. It's been a thing for a while now, but it wasn't a thing I saw in 2000, say.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:49 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Trump disease has metastasized and is now endemic to the UK.

Yep, they're now apparently requiring parents and employees (with bonus "right to work" language) to provide evidence of birthplace and nationality. This has never ended well.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Trump disease has metastasized and is now endemic to the UK.

Talez, rather than leave those in a US Election megathread, any chance you could bundle them up as a separate post? All this week I've been watching Twitter aghast at our own news, and wishing there was a Mefi thread, but haven't had time to gather up the links to do it justice. Those would do just fine. It doesn't need a Trump angle: Brexit is its own special breed of slow motion disaster (and one we're actually stuck with, whereas it's looking hopeful that you'll avoid the worst).
posted by rory at 6:52 AM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


Seconding the new British politics FPP. All this nonsense has occurred over the Tory party conference (and Labour's - plenty of Red UKIP stuff there too), so that might be a perfectly cromulent hook.
posted by Devonian at 6:55 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


There have been students out chalking around campus - Trump 4 President, Hillary for Prison 2016, A Woman's Place Is In The Whitehouse, and so on. It's usually pretty clear which side people are on, but yesterday I sawTrump For God-Emperor, and I'm not sure if that's pro- or anti-Trump.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


zombieflanders, I see meta-discussion about election commentary as being one of the main purposes of these threads—certainly, I follow the election threads mainly to get a sense of what people are saying about the election without having to expose myself more directly to the vitriol and bile that's out there in the wider world—but I can see where you're coming from and if the mods would like this line of discussion to continue in MetaTalk then I'll abide by that.

My feeling though is that these threads are part of the election as well as commentary on it, and that a certain amount of recursion is both appropriate and inevitable. I see the election fanfic phenomenon as part of the broader phenomenon of commentary and meta-commentary about the election as a whole (I'm sure election fanfic isn't restricted to MetaFilter) and I feel like it's appropriate to talk about it here. Like I said though, I'm open to being told otherwise.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:57 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


UF Professor Daniel A Smith:

50,000 people registered to vote in the last 5 days in 2012. (elsewhere that number was cited as higher, but that's from the last 8 days)
posted by cashman at 6:58 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Lol "how can I best browbeat people into not exercising their right to express their preference?"

My god, the Democrats have deployed morality-based arguments! Will their depravity know no bounds?!
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:00 AM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump For God-Emperor

God-Emperor is what they call him in reddit's /r/the_donald. It's the Pepe-approved way of referring to Trump, who they have some major masochistic fantasies about and really do seem to want to be their absolute despot.
posted by dis_integration at 7:01 AM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


yesterday I saw Trump For God-Emperor, and I'm not sure if that's pro- or anti-Trump.

I believe that's a Reddit-ism, though I only know that based on some screencaps of their meltdowns that have circulated on Twitter.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:02 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mean from a practical standpoint what's step 2 after "go to the polling places"?

Step 2: Get thrown out. Wearing Trump merch is 'electioneering'.
posted by mikelieman at 7:03 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


50,000 people in florida, that is.
posted by cashman at 7:04 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, not ironic then? It's a sincere expression of a desire to be ruled by a white supremacist's fever-dream vision of a despotic Donald Trump? Scary.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:05 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Scary.

I think you mean Sad!
posted by uncleozzy at 7:06 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


So cashman, by not extending the registration by two days, Florida Governor and Trump SuperPAC chairman Rick Scott may be disenfranchising about 20,000 people at a single stroke?

That's fucking evil.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:07 AM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


vuron: I wonder if she's got the phone number of the sexist high school president so she can call come November and say "I guess you were wrong".

I imagine she won't have to, as plenty of people will do it for her.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Why does this picture look like a weird Ken-doll-version of walrus in disguise John Bolton?

He really looks like he's got a mustache. It's weirding me out more than usual.
posted by rp at 7:11 AM on October 7, 2016


Sorry to drop that British stuff in the thread. I sent it to a separate FPP as requested.
posted by Talez at 7:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, not ironic then? It's a sincere expression of a desire to be ruled by a white supremacist's fever-dream vision of a despotic Donald Trump?

Not...exactly? It's been a "joke" on reddit for years to talk about the glorious republic of North Korea and its wonderful leader Kim Jong-Un. This approach to Trump is like a spin-off of that meme.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:12 AM on October 7, 2016


I was at my father's knee listening and he was always negotiating. That's what we need, because you all saw the story on tv about the fighter jets our people are flying that are so old that they don't even make spare parts for them. We have to go to plane graveyards and museums to get parts. We need a strong military. We need to protect our 2nd amendment. We need to take care of our vets. We need borders. We need great education, get rid of common core. John Sununu agrees with me -- United States Supreme Court. We lost a great Justice. Scalia, great Justice. We need great Justices to uphold the constitution. Hillary Clinton will change our country. That's important. Defense is important. We have to stop people coming in who are looking to do us harm, Hillary wants them to come in 550% more. We are going to make america great again.
If you asked me six months ago, I would have been 100% sure this was written by a Markov-like bot. Its almost correct English, but somehow alien. I can't believe anyone takes this guy seriously as a human being.
posted by mmoncur at 7:13 AM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


My feeling though is that these threads are part of the election as well as commentary on it, and that a certain amount of recursion is both appropriate and inevitable. I see the election fanfic phenomenon as part of the broader phenomenon of commentary and meta-commentary about the election as a whole (I'm sure election fanfic isn't restricted to MetaFilter) and I feel like it's appropriate to talk about it here. Like I said though, I'm open to being told otherwise.

Here it's being called fanfic but talking about any issue or conflict type situation this way is normal. Usually though it happens in a behind the scenes and more private setting. If you've ever indulged in any sort of "I wish this would happen. I wish I could do this and say this because this would happen, ' thinking or chatting that's what is being called fan fiction here. Even though I've used the term myself calling what is happening 'fan fiction' troubles me somewhat because it's what most people do, all the time, to some extent. And it doesn't necessarily reflect 'seriousness'. Humor can be more about just being funny it's also a coping mechinism.

In the non digital world it happens 'behind the scenes' so to speak and if it's with a group there are social norms at playing regarding things like 'just how jokey can we all go' 'how much sarcasm' etc. He we have a not private setting where many people, including me feel comfortable enough to engage in the types of conversation that would happen in a more private setting. Couple that no unanimous agreement on humor norms and it's ripe for misunderstanding and conflict.
posted by Jalliah at 7:16 AM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


So cashman, by not extending the registration by two days, Florida Governor and Trump SuperPAC chairman Rick Scott may be disenfranchising about 20,000 people at a single stroke?

Yep. And I didn't even realize that apparently state offices in 26 counties across florida were closed yesterday AND today. And then next week they'd be open Monday the 10th and Tuesday the 11th (the deadline). But people are going to be recovering from the storm - getting supplies, taking time to help friends and family, and catching up on work and other things that stack up while you're waiting out the storm. And what of people who have lost power for an extended period and thus lost a lot of their food?

There really has to be a big pressure put on Scott to allow Wednesday and Thursday to be accepted as the last 2 days to register. I hope he doesn't try to extend Monday and Tuesday by something paltry like 2 hours, and say that covers it.
posted by cashman at 7:17 AM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


So cashman, by not extending the registration by two days, Florida Governor and Trump SuperPAC chairman Rick Scott may be disenfranchising about 20,000 people at a single stroke?

One thing I've never grasped is why this is seen as less like voter fraud than a group of people voting 20,000 extra times would be.
posted by Francis at 7:19 AM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


This seems like a strange thing to say; are there many essays arguing in favor of a certain candidate that don't couch their position as being based in morality?

I don't imagine there are.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:19 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


No uncleozzy, I meant scary. I don't think that kind of sentiment is funny, not when all too many people are sincere subscribers. It's fucking un-American is what is is, and I'm not one to toss that term out lightly. It's certainly un-democratic, and I think I'm on safe ground when I say that it's fascist. I'm not cool with open displays of fascism, and it's frightening how easy it has been for Trump to stir up such sentiment this election cycle. Have we learned nothing?

What this election has taught me is that people don't change, that we don't learn from history, and that the same societal currents that have raised up genocidal tyrants in the past are still there today. I am leaning toward the view that societies are only as good as the systems that operate them, and that if we want to avoid being taken over by bigots and tyrants we need to reform our political system to make it freer, more democratic, and more durable. Trump is only facing defeat (fingers crossed) because the system we have is just barely good enough to prevent him from seizing power. If he were a bit smarter, a bit cannier, a bit more polished, he would probably win. We need to make some serious changes, or a few cycles down the line someone a little slicker is going to take up his torch, rally the mob again, and ride a wave of bigotry and fear all the way to the destruction of America as a free and democratic society.

This election has taught me that the conditions that allowed Hitler to seize power in Germany exist here in America too. We are not special, we just happen to have a political system that is durable enough that it has kept tyrants out for 238 years. That system has been weakened, though—there's a sort of societal ratchet in place whereby people with power use that power to re-write the rules so that they can have even more power, and unless we actively oppose that and keep up the never-ending, Sisyphan work of protecting and reinforcing democracy, we are only ever a generation away at most from tyranny and genocide. Political engagement is not optional.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [58 favorites]


I predict Scott is going to complain heavily that the Obama administrations' efforts after the hurricane are horrible and that this is Obama's Katrina.
posted by humanfont at 7:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rick Scott (R-FL) noted in his press conference this morning that all of his requests from FEMA were granted.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:24 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


We lost a great Justice. Scalia, great Justice. We need great Justices to uphold the constitution.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE

SOMEBODY SET US UP THE TRUMP
posted by Shepherd at 7:24 AM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


I meant scary. I don't think that kind of sentiment is funny

For what it's worth, I find /r/t_d terrifying as hell, but I try to imagine (almost certainly incorrectly) that they're all edgy teenagers. Which doesn't explain the real-world mobs that have been stirred up, but they've been there for the last couple of election cycles too (gee, I wonder why).
posted by uncleozzy at 7:25 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone a while back (pre-debate) talked about how they would look at electoral-vote.com when they got nervous about things. At that time I think Hillary was at 308 electoral votes. Then around and after the debate, she picked up NC and jumped up to 323 electoral votes, and that held steady for these past 7 or 8 days. Just looked at the site and she's now at 334 electoral votes, having picked up AZ. Doesn't mean a ton, just nice to see things trending her way.
posted by cashman at 7:25 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


His complete answer on that question was classic Trump word salad.

Good grief, it's the stump speech equivalent of The Last Words of Dutch Schultz.

Oh, it's not sudden. The right is obsessed with Saul Alinsky. It's bizarre, and I don't entirely understand what it's about.

In the first place, not only did HRC wrote her college senior thesis on him, but Obama also wrote an essay on him while he was a community organizer in the late 80s. (He's a two-fer they can use to cudgel their most hated figures opposition!) In the second, he's, well, one of those people.

God-Emperor is what they call him in reddit's /r/the_donald. It's the Pepe-approved way of referring to Trump, who they have some major masochistic fantasies about and really do seem to want to be their absolute despot.

It's one of their trolling tactics, but nevertheless one that reveals a profound truth. They know that referring to Trump in this way will piss of their hated liberal/SJW opponents without allowing for a serious response (and referring to Trump as, say, "Darth Trump" just makes everyone look childish and unserious). But their superficial irony can't mitigate their very real desire for an authoritarian leader - as long as it's their leader.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:25 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


I predict Scott is going to complain heavily that the Obama administrations' efforts after the hurricane are horrible and that this is Obama's Katrina.

I hope during the inevitable press conference Obama has a list of Republicans that will inevitably vote against appropriations for relief efforts and goes through that list and states "Party: Republican" after each name.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The odd thing about the God Emperor meme is that it refers to Leto II Atreides, right?

I thought it was The God Emperor of Mankind from 40K. Dune is too obscure.
posted by Talez at 7:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


They hear "God" and "Emperor" next to each other. They're not culturally literate outside of 4chan culture.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


I feel kind of weird about the way people are talking about the poll watchers, honestly, because I feel like two things are simultaneously true: some Trump poll watchers are going to be looking for "suspicious black people", but also some GOP poll watchers are just sincere people who have been doing this for years, and really just want to make sure the process goes fairly. I've been a poll watcher, and it was mostly "hang out and call the lawyers if you see something odd going on, like a lot of people being told this isn't their polling place." It's genuinely important work.
posted by corb at 7:37 AM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Warhammer 40K is less obscure than Dune? What a weird world I'm living in.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:37 AM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]


When Trump first started going off on Rosie O'Donnell my first thought was "who?" Then I remembered that she'd been a comedian back in the mid 1990's and somehow managed to piss off a lot of right wingers. I have no idea how and am not willing to spend even the twenty seconds it'd take to check her wikipedia entry and find out. I seem to recall she said something racist about Chinese people once too?

So I was wondering why Trump was wasting time attacking a former comedian.

Thinking about it now, I'm not so sure it was a waste of time for him. I don't think he's foresightful enough to have planned this out, but I think attacking O'Donnell might actually help him a bit.

Because old right wing people have very long memories of everyone, especially women, who have ever annoyed them. And if there was enough of a right wing rage at O'Donnell that even I, who never even really knew who she was and briefly confused her with Roseanne Barr, remember that the right was mad at her, then there are, I flat out guarantee, a lot of right wingers who still get filled with a seething rage at the mention of her name.

They don't give up a grudge. Here's an example:

Several years ago I was repairing computers in a Texas Panhandle grocery store that had a little lunch counter that was popular with elderly people for breakfast. One day I found that someone had put a sticker inside the urinal in the men's room. It had a stylized illustration of the face of a sort of square jawed person with shoulder length hair, and text that was small enough I'd have had to stick my face in the urinal to read so I didn't. I assumed it was some hipster comment on a boy band or something (I initially took the face to be one of the Hanson brothers, even though the Hanson craze had passed years before this).

An elderly man, seeing me emerge from the toilet, asked me, in the voice of someone who had given you a real treat, if I liked the urinal. I forget what I said, probably something vague and non-committal. But it did make me curious enough to look closer at the urinal sticker the next time I was in the toilet.

As those of you who are brighter than me have already figured out, it was an anti-Jane Fonda sticker. The tiny text said "HANOI JANE - URINAL TARGET".

This was in 2005. Her Vietnam visit had been 32 years before. And this guy was **STILL** holding a spiteful grudge against her big enough that he'd spend real money buying urinal stickers and then go to the trouble of actually installing them in public urinals (I hope he washed his hands afterward).

Given that, I have no doubt that when Trump went after O'Donnell a largeish segment of older right wing types cheered with joy and renewed their hate of O'Donnell for whatever it was she did to offend them many decades ago.

Because the older right wing people will never, ever, let their hate of a woman who said something they don't like die. I bet among that segment of the population Trump's popularity soared after he attacked O'Donnell. I'm sure that in 50 years some elderly person will be putting Rosie O'Donnell urinal stickers in public toilets and patting himself on the back for putting her in her place for whatever it was she did that made her a target of right wing hate.
posted by sotonohito at 7:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]


I feel kind of weird about the way people are talking about the poll watchers

Oh, come on, you know that's not what Trump or GOP offices like Wake County are saying. These are calls for voter suppression pure and simple, and it doesn't need defending. As I've been saying, this is what Shelby v Holder unleashed, which was predicted by those of us opposed to the decision and the desire of those that enabled it--chief among them John Roberts, for whom gutting the VRA has been his actual job for a very long time.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:41 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


Warhammer 40K is less obscure than Dune? What a weird world I'm living in.

In the context of chan culture? Yes.
posted by Talez at 7:41 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Would be ironic if the Trump campaign recruited poll watchers but was unable to actually organize them.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:42 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I did poll watching with OFA in 2008, there were organizing sessions, a legal hotline to call, and no veiled references to intimidation like, “And when [I] say ‘watch,’ you know what I’m talking about, right?”

Trump is not talking about traditional poll watching, and he's not even talking about standard Republican dirty tricks like challenging every person under 30 or every black person, he's talking about rounding up the 'boys and making sure everyone is armed to form a gauntlet in front of the voting booths.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:43 AM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos: There are those people who will be thoroughly and wholly unsurprised to read this, but during a concert on Wednesday, U2 took a moment at the intro to Bullet the Blue Sky to comment on the election and sass back at a video of Trump.

8 years ago, Adam Freeland, an English producer and DJ, hyped O-B-A-M-A in his remix of Daft Punk's Aerodynamic at Coachella. I don't remember the crowd feedback, but I was stoked to see it.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:44 AM on October 7, 2016


I'm not sure what Trump expects poll watchers to do given there's also the whole RNC consent decree thing.
Republican observers at polling places:

May not question voters about their credentials
May not impede or delay voters by asking for identification
May not videotape, photograph, or otherwise make visual records of voters or their vehicles
May not handout any literature outlining the fact that voter fraud is a crime or detailing the penalties under any state or federal statute for impermissibly casting a ballot
For those of you who may not remember why we have this consent decree, the Ballot Security Task Force.
Armed officers in the task force were drawn from the ranks of off-duty county deputy sheriffs and local police, who prominently displayed revolvers, two-way radios, and BSTF armbands. BSTF patrols challenged and questioned voters at the polls. Democrat James J. Florio lost the gubernatorial election to Republican Thomas H. Kean by 1,797 votes.
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


What I'm saying, to be clear, is that I understand Trump "poll watchers" are horrible, but I'm not sure organized GOP county-level poll watchers should be mentioned in the same breath.
posted by corb at 7:48 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


ZeusHumms Would be ironic if the Trump campaign recruited poll watchers but was unable to actually organize them.

If I believed Trump was planning ahead I'd think that was the plan. Convince a lot of people that they're "poll watchers", provide no organization, no instructions, no oversight, no boundaries, and then count on stochastic violence to take place. Given enough utterly uncontrolled "poll watchers" some are going to go armed (because of course they will), some are going to very openly be racist, some might actually start fights (including fights with the police). Some will doubtless convince themselves that as "poll watchers" they can interrogate anyone suspicious (which means non-white), demand ID, and so on.

The effect of this would be to disrupt the polls, to make them seem unsafe, to discourage minority voters from voting because the polls seem unsafe and there are scary armed white men and police confronting each other and all the voters.

I don't think Trump actually plans this, I don't think he's forethoughtful enough to. But I think it will be one of the effects of his campaign recruiting "poll watchers" and then doing nothing with them.

And, of course, since he wasn't organizing them or providing instructions, anything they do is totally not his fault.
posted by sotonohito at 7:48 AM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


There are undoubtedly GOP poll watchers who are doing it for the right reasons. These are not the ones anyone is worried about. Maybe we can leave it at that this time without the usual derail that ends in a mod note.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:48 AM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Mod note: Donald Trump the clear winner in New Hampshire debate featuring only himself
In Sandown, Trump looked back on [the first debate]. First he blamed the microphone, but later told a questioner: “I did hold back.”

Still, he wouldn’t attack Clinton’s personal life on Sunday. “I’d much rather it be on policy. I didn’t like it getting into the gutter.”
"That's why I jumped in the gutter right after the debate." fake
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:49 AM on October 7, 2016


Vox: Why Hillary Clinton could be even stronger than polls show
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:49 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Step 2: Get thrown out. Wearing Trump merch is 'electioneering'.

This is not a bright line, depending on your state. When I was last a poll worker in 2012 here in Virginia there was a hard rule that you didn't come inside the perimeter wearing candidate materials. Between when I changed jobs (and no longer got volunteer leave to do such thing, not to mention a baby to care for) and stopped being a poll worker and the next big elections, there was some lawsuits and changes in rulings. Not entirely unreasonably, people complained that they shouldn't potentially be denied the right to vote because they'd worn a shirt with a candidate name on it. So as of 2014 (no idea if there's been MORE changes...) you could march right in with your McAuliff for Governor shirt and cast your vote.

Now, I am 100% sure that if you're there as a poll worker or a credentialed observer (here you need to be pre-cleared with the dept of elections) that you can't wear or carry anything. But if folks are really determined to engage in shenanigans they could certainly go get in line, feigning that they're there to vote, festooned in their junk. How threatening they could really be... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we policed the lines when i was a worker but it's hard to see even vaguely subtle behavior, and how it would be handled if people were constantly being shitty would likely depend on the precinct captain.
posted by phearlez at 7:50 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I'm saying, to be clear, is that I understand Trump "poll watchers" are horrible, but I'm not sure organized GOP county-level poll watchers should be mentioned in the same breath.

When they're throwing around Alinsky's name, accusing Democrats of "extremist ideology," and repeating lies about registering dead people and in-person voter fraud occurring "every day," they damn well deserve it. These are as about as racist and Jim Crow-esque phrases as you can use. This isn't even dogwhistling, they're sending up the Batshitinsane Signal and hoping the good ol' boys will drive up armed and ready.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


"Donald, would you like to switch mics? I'm fine with either."

[Donald takes her up on the offer; switches places; the debate begins]

HRC: "Good evening, and tha--"

Donald: [Interrupting] "Ha! You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched the microphones when your back was turned!"

Moderator: "Mr. Trump, please stop talking. Mrs. Clinton, continue."

[HRC clears throat; continues]

...

HRC: [Finishing her concluding remarks] "....and that's why I encourage all of you to show up and vote on November 8. Oh, and by the way, Donald. Both microphones were off. I spent 8 years in New York learning how to talk to constituents. I don't need a microphone to talk to my people."
posted by schmod at 7:54 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


I'm not sure what Trump expects poll watchers to do given there's also the whole RNC consent decree thing.

The thing is enforcement is hard, and slow, on election day, especially where local law enforcement is sympathetic to Trump. A widespread intimidation effort would be very difficult to stop the day of, regardless of legal orders in place.

And the consent decree applies to the RNC, which would of course disavow any responsibility. After the fact litigation is pretty cold comfort here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:54 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy: Donald Trump lashed out against a broad array of people at a town hall-style event staged before a friendly audience here Thursday night.

So, he was playing Clint Eastwood versus Chairbama?


Secret Life of Gravy: 3 in 10 Trump Supporters Wish Pence Was Running for President

I think that could also be read as 3 in 10 Trump supporters are pretending Pence is running for president.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


What would the penalty be for breaking the Consent Decree?
posted by Francis at 7:57 AM on October 7, 2016


Donald Trump Makes History With Zero Major Newspaper Endorsements
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:58 AM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


The thing is enforcement is hard, and slow, on election day, especially where local law enforcement is sympathetic to Trump. A widespread intimidation effort would be very difficult to stop the day of, regardless of legal orders in place.
I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but this is a huge reason for people to vote early in places where that's possible. It is way easier to deal with any problems if you don't have to do it on election day.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:58 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh man! So a really interesting thing just happened that I think may have broader implications for this election!

I saw sonohito's post, and my immediate reaction was "No, Jane Fonda deserves to be hated, she turned POW letters over to their Vietcong captors and got POWs tortured!" But then I was like, well, that's how I remember it, and how it was told to me by people I trust, but let me check before I post on Metafilter, because I don't want to have egg on my face.

And it turns out the single thing I've been hating Jane Fonda for, for over ten years, didn't exist and was just a legend passed around. And that's a problem. I don't know how to fix it, because it's hard to remember, once you have something fixed in your mind, where it came from, and remember not just to check it once, but constantly. Most people don't have a Metafilter, and when they vote, they're by doing it off their memories, not Googling in the voting booth. So how do we fix that kind of thing?
posted by corb at 8:00 AM on October 7, 2016 [147 favorites]


WaPo: Donald Trump’s debate prep is going great!!!

makes the whole thing somehow even look weirder.

This is an actual quote, and I'm just going to put most of it here:
HOWIE CARR: Did you really say, Lois asks you, were you upset about Mr. Pence's debate success as John Harwood said?

DONALD TRUMP: John Harwood was the worst moderator out of all the debates we had -- there were what, 11 or 12?

He was so bad. This guy knows nothing about me. I was so happy [about Mike Pence's victory].

And I saw today that someone on CNN --the Clinton News Network-- who knows nothing about us, you know they use John King. I like him on the maps! I like him now a little bit better than I used to, a couple of months ago I had no chance, but now all of a sudden that map is starting to see a lot of red...

But John King said [I was jealous of Mike Pence]. You know, they always have a source. Nobody talks to him, because he's like, the enemy.

And a few other people said: 'Donald Trump was first happy, and then he was unhappy, because Mike Pence did so well.' I said: 'Unhappy? We're jumping up and down.' Because he did so well, he was so good, and I'll tell you, he's a great human being.

You can't root against [Mike Pence].
(I couldn't find a full transcript that wasn't an image. The whole thing is somehow even less coherent)

The Maps!

Now we know that Pence is really running for President, and Donald is really running for Miss Teen South Carolina.
posted by schmod at 8:01 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


And it turns out the single thing I've been hating Jane Fonda for, for over ten years, didn't exist and was just a legend passed around. And that's a problem.

the extent to which i have found the backstory of my own american life is actually myth, legend and propaganda is overwhelming for me sometimes. it's a goddam deep despair.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:10 AM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald:
My new article coming out today in @Newsweek: Not an investigative piece on Trump, but a story about his followers that has to be told.

Word 2day from inside @realDonaldTrump campaign: Even some of his senior advisors wont vote 4 him cause they think he's unhinged and unfit.
As we saw with his previous reaction to leaks from his campaign, I'm sure Trump will handle this with poise and exude calm.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


WaPo: Donald Trump’s debate prep is going great!!!

I cannot believe that in the year of our lord 2016 the venerable Washington Post is using three sarcastic exclamation points in a headline about a presidential candidate. This election has literally broken us all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:13 AM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


And it turns out the single thing I've been hating Jane Fonda for, for over ten years, didn't exist and was just a legend passed around. And that's a problem. I don't know how to fix it, because it's hard to remember, once you have something fixed in your mind, where it came from, and remember not just to check it once, but constantly.

This is exactly why most people who hate Hillary Clinton hate Hillary Clinton, and it's not exclusive to conservatives. Once a vibe about someone gets fixed in the collective subconscious, it's damn near impossible to convince people to reconsider their ideas about them.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:14 AM on October 7, 2016 [98 favorites]


Sam Wang currently has Ohio and Nevada blue and Hillary with 230 safe EV. IIRC those are her best numbers to date, including just after the DNC.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:20 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


sotonohito: Because the older right wing people will never, ever, let their hate of a woman who said something they don't like die.

There are a lot of people who are amazing at holding grudges and not letting the past fade. HRC's bunny bully is one of them. My mom is another, but she's ardently anti-Trump. She held onto issues she had with her wedding and she wanted to right those with my wedding. This is to say grudges aren't just angry white dudes who have issues with women, but those forms of grief hauntings are made worse by misogyny*.

People are weird; for some the past is ever present. They latch on to slights and wrongs for decades and don't realize that this hate from the past is holding them back.


* Fun fact: when I used Google to spell misogyny right, the first search hit was Prospect.org's article "Decoding Mike Pence's misogyny", which is subtitled Having lost the women’s vote, the Trump campaign doubles down on gendered language.
If there’s any one thing the Trump campaign wants you to remember about Hillary Clinton, it’s that she’s a woman—a play for the votes of people who believe that’s not a good thing.

In Tuesday night’s vice presidential debate, Mike Pence, the right-wing extremist Indiana governor who is the running mate of Republican presidential nominee Donald J. Trump, attempted to paint the foreign policy of Trump’s Democratic opponent as weak, saying of the war in Syria, “Look, we have got to lean into this with strong, broad-shouldered American leadership that begins by rebuilding our military.”

Ah, that broad-shouldered leadership. You know who doesn’t have broad shoulders? The woman!
posted by filthy light thief at 8:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


LATimes/TPM: Trump: Feds Are Letting Immigrants 'Pour Into The Country' To Vote

Specifically, letting illegal immigrants stay in the country in order to vote. This came up in response to comments by a border patrol union leader.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:25 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


But then I was like, well, that's how I remember it, and how it was told to me by people I trust, but let me check before I post on Metafilter, because I don't want to have egg on my face.

It'd be cool if people fact-checked things for reasons beyond not wanting to be wrong on a website.
posted by beerperson at 8:26 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Haaretz: There's a reason why so many anti-Semites are going for Trump. It's not that he's an anti-Semite. He's something worse. He's an influential public figure who enables and tolerates and excuses and pumps Jew-haters, and who, most crucially, cannot afford to lose their votes. (cw: ethnic slurs)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:26 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald:

My new article coming out today in @Newsweek

Is it just me, or was there a time when Newsweek and USA Today were just those free papers you find in hotels, and not sources of breaking news and investigative journalism? Is this some golden era for deep digs, thanks to the mine of terrible things that is the Trump campaign?

Hurricane Matthew Truthers Claim the U.S. Government is Hiding Data (October 6, 2016, USA Today's Tech & Science section)
Drudge, in his debut as a hurricane truther, tweeted that “The deplorables are starting to wonder if govt has been lying to them about Hurricane Matthew intensity to make exaggerated point on climate,” and “Hurricane Center has monopoly on data. No way of verifying claims.”

Another conservative, Republican Florida Gov. Rick Scott, no friend of the federal government, took the government’s weather forecasts seriously. “There are no excuses,” Mr. Scott said at a news conference in Tallahassee. “You need to leave. Evacuate, evacuate, evacuate. Are you willing to take a chance to risk your life? Are you willing to take a gamble? That’s what you’re doing.”

Hurricanes have often been as devastating to political campaigns as they are to homes, families and communities. George W. Bush’s awkward and inadequate response to Hurricane Katrina, which caused the loss of close to 2,000 lives, contributed to the collapse of his presidency. His father also suffered politically from a slow response to Hurricane Andrew in Florida in 1992.

But the idea that data on hurricanes would be manipulated for political advantage is a new one. It has brought out the inner meteorologist not only in Drudge, but also in Rush Limbaugh. “So with hurricane tracking and hurricane forecasting, I’ve been able to spot where I think they might be playing games because it’s in the interests of the left to have destructive hurricanes because then they can blame it on climate change, which they can continue desperately continue trying to sell,” he said, according to Wonkette.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:29 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, not ironic then? It's a sincere expression of a desire to be ruled by a white supremacist's fever-dream vision of a despotic Donald Trump?

I am still holding out hope that the God-Emperor Trump thing is an example of Laibach-style irony. Then again, I am also still holding out hope that Melania Trump is a secret NSK agent controlling the campaign from within as part of an extended performance art piece to promote the next Laibach album, so...
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Also: "Hurricane Truthers" reminds me of the witticism that reality has a liberal bias. Just because you don't like the way things are in the world doesn't mean there's a conspiracy against you.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump: Feds Are Letting Immigrants 'Pour Into The Country' To Vote

The silence from the Republican Party as Trump undermines and questions the institutions that support our democracy (the independent judiciary, the free press, the Federal Reserve, the INS, the FEC, fucking elections) is just deafening.

I am very concerned that someone is going to get killed voting this year.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald: How Donald Trump Supporters Attack Journalists (caution, video autoplays)
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Do I understand this correctly: Millionaires, like Trump, need tax breaks that funnel back millions to them, in order to create "incentives" that let them stay sufficiently "motivated", whereas the hoi polloi, like us, should be sufficiently "motivated" by minimum wage?

Close. We should be motivated by fear of losing our jobs. Freedom!
posted by Gelatin at 8:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


More from Haaretz: Chemi Shalev: Trump Shows How Right-wingers Can Love Israel and Hate the Jews. Some American right-wingers despise Jewish liberals with same venom that Israeli right detests Jewish leftists.
American Jews are identified more than any other group with liberal causes such as the civil rights movement, the pro-choice movement, women’s rights, gun control, legalizing immigrants and, latest and worst of all, the legalization of gay marriage. When right wingers slam East Coast elites and liberals, when Ted Cruz mentions “New York values”, when every other Republican repeatedly brandishes the name of community organizer Saul Alinsky, with a special emphasis on his Jewish name, as the root of all evil, everyone knows who and what they’re talking about.

This aversion to liberal Jews is reflected in the hostility of the Jewish right, in Israel and America, towards leftist Jews: religious Jews despise them because of their secularity and universal liberal values and other right wingers because they refuse to be part of the nationalistic zeitgeist of Israel and the American Jewish establishment. They often describe such Jews as “self-haters”, which is ironic, given that it is they who are besmirching and sometimes excommunicating such a large part of the Jewish community. If you want to find self-haters, they should be told, take a look in the mirror.

The anti-Semitism sprouting alongside Trump is the old-fashioned hatred of Jews that has existed since time immemorial, before the establishment of Israel. It views Jews as malevolent outsiders, cosmopolitan creatures and agents of decadence, bent on sucking American’s blood corrupting its character and taking it over from within. Its emergence is a challenge for the Israeli government’s effort to equate most criticism of Israel, especially from the left, as anti-Semitism. Now it seems that the contrary is true, that some of the biggest supporters of Israel feel it prudent to tolerate, if not aid and abet, the growth of right wing anti-Semitism as a necessary evil. 

Trump’s candidacy did not create this shameful situation but it does expose it for the entire world to see. It shows that support for Israel can serve as a cover, if not actually as an accelerator, for anti-Semitism. Even if one can understand how some Americans might ignore the racism and anti-Semitism enveloping Trump because they view Clinton and the Democrats as greater evils, it’s harder to understand how American Jews - and discerning Israelis - can justify voting for him by citing his supposed support for Israel, transitory as it is. In the name of Israel, they will be encouraging anti-Semitism and stabbing their brothers and sisters in the American Jewish community in the back. They might excuse themselves, but Jewish history won’t forgive them.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


infinitywaltz, I'm sorry that it took Laibach 8 years to release the follow-up to Volk (2006), but Spectre is only two years old. It could be a while yet.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Specifically, letting illegal immigrants stay in the country in order to vote. This came up in response to comments by a border patrol union leader.

Well, that's a game of telephone that's going to lodge in Trump's brain, conflating the resource squeeze to get naturalization applications completed for law-abiding permanent residents with the processing of illegal immigrants with criminal records.

And Border Patrol Union Guy didn't correct him.
posted by holgate at 8:38 AM on October 7, 2016


an example of Laibach-style irony.

Wow, that's a (band) name I haven't thought of in well over 20 years. This is the first time the election has flashed me back to PRE-Clinton administration stuff.

He he, I am looking forward to having to type "Clinton(I) administration"
posted by phearlez at 8:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also: "Hurricane Truthers" reminds me of the witticism that reality has a liberal bias. Just because you don't like the way things are in the world doesn't mean there's a conspiracy against you.

The political complexity of Hurricane Matthew Drudge
It's natural that Drudge's assumption would be that someone was hyping a threat for political purposes. That's what Drudge does nearly every day. Between September 2013 and June 2014, for example, he promoted stories about the "knockout game" 19 times, according to Drudge Report Archives. The "knockout game" was a purported trend in which young men (mostly black) were dared to go punch someone (often white) without provocation. There was no basis to the suggestion that this was a broad trend, and the subtext behind the weird media frenzy was hard to miss.

More regularly, Drudge hypes stories about undocumented immigrants ("Illegal Alien in Phoenix Deadly Crash Drank 12 Beers and Used Cocaine..."), the Islamic State ("ISIS to send 'serial killers' to the West in bloody new terror tactic") and crime ("Murder Rates Soar In 25 Largest Cities..."). His relationship with Trump is symbiotic, however unintentionally: He hypes the purported danger, and Trump promises to fix it.

The difference between Drudge's hype and the warnings of the weather forecasters, of course, is that there actually is a massive hurricane on Florida's coast. It actually is an immediate risk to life and property. Drudge criticizing forecasters for basing warnings on worst-case scenarios is the flip side to Drudge constantly hyping one-off polls that show Trump with significant leads in the presidential race. He's cherry-picking the best-case scenario to reassure his readers; the scientists are isolating the worst case to potentially save lives.
posted by peeedro at 8:39 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Actually, Border Patrol Union Guy is confused as well, probably because Border Patrol Union Guy thinks all immigrants are criminals.
posted by holgate at 8:40 AM on October 7, 2016


3 in 10 Trump Supporters Wish Pence Was Running for President

Not the Onion.

I wonder how much that cohort overlaps with the so-called "evangelical" voters?
posted by Gelatin at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


The thing about the fanfic - one of the candidates has been treating a serious matter as mere entertainment, displaying a Red Team vs. Blue Team mentality, advocates incivility and zingers over dignity and substance (if by incivility you mean pogroms), indulges in a cult of personality, and gives up on the debates (or political discourse in general) ever being anything substantial or meaningful. That's the fucking candidate. So while, yeah, the fan fiction is not useful in any real strategic sense, it saves some of us from having our brains melt without the candidate we actually support going there.

TLDR: Humor is a defense mechanism.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:41 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


I'm a Clinton supporter, and I'd be more comfortable with Pence at the top of the ticket. Dude is straight up wrong, but not so incompetent that I'd fear for nuclear war.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wow, that's a (band) name I haven't thought of in well over 20 years. This is the first time the election has flashed me back to PRE-Clinton administration stuff.

They got a burst of publicity (I think last year) for being the first Western band to play the DPRK. I'd like to believe they played Geburt Einer Nation, but I didn't see the setlist.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:42 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ben Wofford: In a Time of Trump, Millennial Jews Awaken to Anti-Semitism
This is the warring dichotomy that white, assimilated Jewish children of the 1990s (including this author) have been dropped into as young adults. As a historic debate unfolds about privilege and race, largely on campus, progressive Jews play the role of allies, not the marginalized. Complicating matters is Israel itself: The burgeoning growth of the Boycott Divest Sanctions movement, and a diminishing generational attachment to the Jewish state. A recent Pew survey finds the number of millennials sympathetic to Palestine has grown from 9 percent to 27 since 2006; support for Israel fell from 51 percent to 43.

Such numbers have fed the encompassing fear of the Jewish right, whose worry over college campuses is boiling near the edge of panic—the culmination of a decades-long narrative that college campuses represent the main spigot of anti-Israel programming. In 2002, Campus Watch was formed, a website that polices the political opinions of college professors and class offerings, ever alert for perceived anti-Israel leanings. A new project funded by Trump-supporter Sheldon Adelson, the Maccabee Task Force, is now writing grants to intervene on behalf of hapless students, ostensibly blind to the crisis around them. “Our goal is to change the younger generation from neutral, if not opposed to Israel, to support of Israel,” says Task Force director David Brog. According to the LA Times, one grantee, “Stop the Jew Hatred on Campus,” is a campaign of campus provocateur David Horowitz. Horowitz’s campaign this year independently papered papered the campus of UCLA with posters that read “Jew Hater,” under the headshots of UCLA undergraduates.

While Adelon’s Maccabee Task Force funds the hunt for anti-Semites, the pro-Israel pillars of the American right have remained silent on the gargantuan problem of Donald Trump. Young people have not overlooked the irony—a skepticism felt acutely by young people interviewed for this story. “What’s most shocking is...how silent the Jewish establishment has been in calling out Trump’s behavior,” Kaplan said. She later added, “The same people who told me that anti-Semitism was everywhere are now conspicuously silent on Trump. In some cases, they’re supporting Trump.”
[...]
It would be a mistake to blame BDS for this condition. More likely, efforts like Horowitz’s “Jew Haters” have done much to raise the political price of speaking out. “A lot of young Jews don’t have the vocabulary to talk about anti-Semitism, because most of the time the label is levelled against us and those we would align with—like those who called for acknowledging human rights of Palestinians,” says Kaplan. “That’s language we’ve separated ourselves from.” One Brown University senior told me “there’s no question” that Trump is peddling anti-Semitism. But there won’t be a “Jews Against Trump” rally at Brown any time soon. The charge of anti-Semitism, the senior said, would just “get caught in their throat, because there’s so much psychological baggage about grandma, and psychological baggage about being gas-lighted” by the far right.

The Jewish right has long pushed the message that we can’t talk of Israel without talking of anti-Semitism. Not without irony, then, have they gotten their wish: A generation of left-leaning Jews ready to speak publically against anti-Semitism, yet frozen by fear that it appears disingenuous to do so, convinced it’s viewed as code for Israel. Trump’s rhetoric may be unprecedented. But no one wants to join an inquisition that marks their hall mates as Jew Haters.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:43 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump: Not Even Wrong
posted by beerperson at 8:43 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm a Clinton supporter, and I'd be more comfortable with Pence at the top of the ticket. Dude is straight up wrong, but not so incompetent that I'd fear for nuclear war.

For a lot of people, including women, Muslims, and LGBTQ people, the difference is minimal.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:44 AM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


Yeah, I'm still not sure Pence isn't an animatronic robot, but I would still prefer him over Trump. Also possibly a selection of randomly chosen strangers!
posted by corb at 8:46 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Several (tens of) comments late, but: I'd be glad people are fact-checking for whatever reason; not wanting to look ignorant or spread misinformation in a community one values is actually one of the better reasons to, I'd think, second only to not wanting to make a misinformed decision.

This is tangential, but I feel like I should share the narrow escape I just had–I had to drop out of the first presidential debate thread with about 700 comments unread, and despaired of ever catching up, but! Look! Here I am! Before the second presidential debate, even!

Hold me, MetaFilter, I was so scared.
posted by seyirci at 8:47 AM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump is incompetent and evil

Pence is possibly competent and evil

I tend to prefer my evil to be more keystone cops than stormtroopers.
posted by vuron at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I just texted the link of my video to a Lehigh Valley for Hillary office worker who will be working on the Anne Holton event today. Apparently he and I are both Boston natives. I'm lowkey freaking out.

Also, I will be canvassing on Saturday. I won't be able to do as much data entry because I just got a new job at a school outside of Boston (not that one), so I feel like I have to canvass as many weekends as I can.
posted by pxe2000 at 8:50 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is an erratic bomb-thrower; Pence is a sniper with women and gays in his sights.

While I'm sure the former would do more damage in total, I'm still uncomfortable giving explicit preference to the latter.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]


It'd be cool if people fact-checked things for reasons beyond not wanting to be wrong on a website.

There's no need for snark or nastiness on this. It takes self-awareness to question beliefs and opinions that have been lodged in your subconscious, especially when so much of that stuff took root a long time ago or over many years. The implication that someone's reasons for reevaluating long-held beliefs need to be, like, noble or wise or some such BS frankly sets the whole conversation back.

Many people (and I include myself in this) live so much of our lives within comfortable/familiar communities with shared beliefs that no cue/trigger to question 'basic' facts ever arises. We should be happy that "not wanting to be wrong on a website" prompted a reevaluation, because it means that whoever said it is actually engaging in real conversation with folks on that website, not just shouting into an echo chamber. And it means the speaker values and respects the opinions of the folks on that site (that's us, btw). FFS, half of the time we can't even get to that stage with beloved family members when we talk politics!

There's a lot of battles to fight but this isn't one of them.

... or, what lalex said.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:55 AM on October 7, 2016 [66 favorites]


I for one encourage comments like corb's - the fact checking, plus the admission of error, plus the "how do we do this better?"
posted by zutalors! at 8:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [64 favorites]


Vote #1 Corb! (with apologies to Quidnunc Kid)
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:01 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Do you think President Obama ordered the U.S. military to engineer a hurricane for the sole purpose of destorying Donald Trump's home?

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ.
posted by Talez at 9:01 AM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


I just mentioned this guy upthread when we were being uncharitable about the appearance of various hairless public servants. So here's Michael Chertoff former skullhead of Homeland Security again -- in perhaps a new light.

Once A Clinton Nemesis During Whitewater, Now A Clinton Supporter
Chasing small peccadilloes like Whitewater in the 1990s, "is a luxury we only have in a world at peace."
-- Michael Chertoff, former Whitewater Committee special counsel, Homeland Security secretary
It's hard to imagine a less likely Hillary Clinton supporter than Michael Chertoff. He led the Republicans' 1990s . . . Whitewater investigation . . . that led to the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Clinton would later vote against Chertoff for other key positions requiring Senate approval.

In a dramatic turnaround, Chertoff just came out in support of Hillary Clinton for president.
The reality is ... it's a binary choice. This is not, 'What is your best outcome in the world. It is: You have two people, and which of the two would be better as president? And I think presented in that way, it was pretty clear to me that I should publicly take the step of saying that I would be planning to vote for Hillary Clinton.

I think she's going to do a good job protecting the country. There are going to be things that I'm sure I'll disagree with, but for me national security is the paramount issue, and I've had the opportunity to give her some advice during the last few weeks, and I also worked with her when she was a senator and I was Secretary of Homeland Security, and I found her in both instances to be well informed.

She exhibited good understanding of what the issues and challenges were, to be steady in terms of her approach and also interested in educating herself. And I generally found her to have good judgment. And in the area of national security . . . temperament [and] being well-informed are critical tools for the next president at a period of time when I think our challenges to security are perhaps more acute than at any time since Sept. 11.

[I]n the '90s we spent an enormous amount of time pursuing . . . the Clintons' associations back in Arkansas in the '80s, Whitewater and other things, and we didn't spend nearly the same amount of time on what bin Laden was up to and others were up to. . . . the ability to spend an inordinate amount of time chasing small peccadilloes is a luxury we only have in a world at peace.
[. . .]
Sept. 11, 2001 . . . was a transformative event. [It made me refocus my priorities] about what our leaders should be doing. . . . [S]ecurity and steadiness [are] the key elements of leading the United States and protecting our people.
An earlier version mistakenly stated that Hillary Clinton voted against Chertoff's confirmation as secretary of Homeland Security. In fact, she voted for that confirmation in 2005. Clinton did cast the sole dissenting vote when Chertoff was nominated to head the Justice Department's criminal division in 2001, and when he was nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit in 2003.

-- NPR, 06oct2016
posted by Herodios at 9:06 AM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


I tend to prefer my evil to be more keystone cops than stormtroopers.

That didn't work out so well the last time. Stormtroopers line up behind Keystone Kops to do the real damage.
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


What even did I just see.

(re.)
posted by seyirci at 9:06 AM on October 7, 2016


[I]n the '90s we spent an enormous amount of time pursuing . . . the Clintons' associations back in Arkansas in the '80s, Whitewater and other things, and we didn't spend nearly the same amount of time on what bin Laden was up to and others were up to. . . ..

QFT
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


At least some of the votes in that poll are just shitposting.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Warhammer 40K is less obscure than Dune? What a weird world I'm living in.

pretty sure the origin was this image created early in the Trump campaign, back when we all thought this was a joke that would blow over
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:11 AM on October 7, 2016


Trump tells CNN he still considers Central Park 5 guilty: "They admitted they were guilty. police in original investigation say they were" (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:11 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Do you think President Obama ordered the U.S. military to engineer a hurricane for the sole purpose of destorying Donald Trump's home?

well they have that installation in alaska where they steer them from, and the chemtrails to manufacture them. wait until you hear about the faked moon landing.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:13 AM on October 7, 2016


Do you think President Obama ordered the U.S. military to engineer a hurricane for the sole purpose of destroying Donald Trump's home?

I think that poll is just a joke. If you remember Heat Street's earlier piece about HILLARY PROPPED UP ON PILLOWS, the author said it was satirical in this Atlantic article.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:14 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Do you think President Obama ordered the U.S. military to engineer a hurricane for the sole purpose of destorying Donald Trump's home?

DO YOU EVEN SCIENCE BRO

As was discussed in the previous thread, there was a time when the right accused the left of being soft-headed and anti-science. How times have changed...
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:15 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


[I]n the '90s we spent an enormous amount of time pursuing . . . the Clintons' associations back in Arkansas in the '80s, Whitewater and other things, and we didn't spend nearly the same amount of time on what bin Laden was up to and others were up to. . . ..

Oh, it's worse than that. Republicans actively criticized Clinton for his attempts to target bin Laden, in some cases accusing him of "wagging the dog."
posted by Gelatin at 9:19 AM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


How Trump Figures He’ll Win Sunday's Debate | The Closer with Keith Olbermann | GQ
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:20 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I'm a Clinton supporter, and I'd be more comfortable with Pence at the top of the ticket. Dude is straight up wrong, but not so incompetent that I'd fear for nuclear war."

For a lot of people, including women, Muslims, and LGBTQ people, the difference is minimal.

I think "oppressed and violently persecuted" while very bad, is still more than "minimally different" from "Dead of radiation poisoning."
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:20 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]




I think "oppressed and violently persecuted" while very bad, is still more than "minimally different" from "Dead of radiation poisoning."

not really.
posted by zutalors! at 9:22 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's kind of cool if Obama or some if his advisors were actual Wizards and Witches that could summon hurricanes.

And Trump is clearly a muggle.

But I am pretty sure the ministry of magic or the Usian equivalent would frown on that sort of thing especially given the Grindlewald and Voldemort precedents.
posted by vuron at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh man, the only good thing you can say about this election is the Black Chamber has stayed out of it (so far).
posted by whuppy at 9:26 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Are we seriously having an argument about whether it would be better to have a nuclear holocaust or just a regular one? Can we not?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:28 AM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


I am torn between wanting to expound upon a world where all the Republican leadership backing Trump are under the Imperius Curse (threatened,etc) except it's more likely to be like Lucius Malfoy, where they said it was the Imperius but really they were just willing to collaborate with or join Death Eaters for profit.
posted by corb at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


And it turns out the single thing I've been hating Jane Fonda for, for over ten years, didn't exist and was just a legend passed around. And that's a problem. I don't know how to fix it, because it's hard to remember, once you have something fixed in your mind, where it came from, and remember not just to check it once, but constantly. Most people don't have a Metafilter, and when they vote, they're by doing it off their memories, not Googling in the voting booth. So how do we fix that kind of thing?

We start by calling out the bullshit, regardless of where it comes from.
posted by sour cream at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]



Are we seriously having an argument about whether it would be better to have a nuclear holocaust or just a regular one?

I mean, we could also avoid telling oppressed groups that they shouldn't mind the violence.
posted by zutalors! at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Just got off phone with Shawn Moran of the Border Patrol Council about this morning's comments by the Border Patrol official and Trump...

Moran admits Del Cueto/Trump's claims that undocumented immigrants being fast-tracked to vote are w/o evidence and are based on hearsay:

Moran says Del Cueto/Trump conflated 2 different issues this morning, as to why undocumented immigrants enter the country:

Trump's implication immigrants are being ushered into vote: They can't vote for years. You don't just get handed citizenship. Long process.
Sopan Deb doing God's work. Getting Moran to throw the Trump campaign under the bus.
posted by Talez at 9:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


Oh man, the only good thing you can say about this election is the Black Chamber has stayed out of it (so far).

"Aides reported that Trump has been acting somewhat more rationally since the glowing worms started to show up behind his eyes..."
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Are we seriously having an argument about whether it would be better to have a nuclear holocaust or just a regular one? Can we not?

TLDR: Humor is a defense mechanism. Just keep repeating it to yourself. It really helps.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do you think President Obama ordered the U.S. military to engineer a hurricane for the sole purpose of destorying Donald Trump's home?

I feel like if I could get an abridged Phantasy Star II walkthrough to the Trump campaign through the right channels, we would soon hear him accusing Obama of sending Neifirst to sabotage America's Climatrol system
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


The real question is whether Trump is Eric Coulter of Dauntless or Jeanine Matthews of Erudite.
posted by beerperson at 9:40 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Via Colbert's YouTube channel: Watch The Vice Presidential Debate With A 10 Kitten Focus Group

What it says on the tin. Debate starts around 14:00.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:40 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Looks like Scott Walker, the goggle-eyed homunculus hired by Koch Industries to manage its midwest subsidiary formerly known as the state of Wisconsin, is still trying really hard to keep his bigoted voting laws (currently under investigation) effective at disenfranchising voters.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:45 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Via Colbert's YouTube channel: Watch The Vice Presidential Debate With A 10 Kitten Focus Group

What it says on the tin. Debate starts around 14:00.

This made me giggle and luckily its the first one so I didn't have to read a lot of them...

Stop putting the kittens that jumped out back in. They represent those dissatisfied with the candidates and those that immigrated to Canada
posted by Jalliah at 9:47 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Via Colbert's YouTube channel: Watch The Vice Presidential Debate With A 10 Kitten Focus Group

I like the little white kitten who is determined to find out what is on/in/behind the screen.
posted by zutalors! at 9:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


that's the Elizabeth Warren kitten stand-in, I guess.
posted by zutalors! at 9:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm really grateful for corb's anecdote about Jane Fonda because I am a liberal who held traditionally pacifistic liberal views on gun control until I participated in an online discussion about the topic. After being confronted with my own ignorance, which was, like corb's, primarily based on the wisdom of the people I live in the echo chamber with, I was forced to adopt a much more nuanced position than my default "Guns bad, militias over, banhammer, give the police funny hats and sticks." And let me tell you, it is extremely difficult to hold a view that is different from the other people in your tribe, especially if you tend to agree with them on just about everything. But it was a good lesson in hearing out the other side and it's proven valuable to me during this election. I'm disgusted by the actions and words of a certain segment of the population supporting Trump, but I can tell that a lot of these people are afraid and need reassurance. By not listening, you're telling them that they don't matter, and all this does is reassure them that they're right to be scared.
posted by xyzzy at 9:59 AM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


As usual if Trump is accusing Hillary of something he's done it or doing it. The latest example is trying to steal the election through fraud.
posted by humanfont at 10:05 AM on October 7, 2016


If it's any consolation, I grew up in a military family and Jane Fonda was forbidden in my home and the homes of every family we knew. I'm now decades removed from it, and I know that the story was built up and serves as only as a shibboleth, and yet I still can't watch her movies because it's so ingrained in how I grew up.
posted by mochapickle at 10:05 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


@maggieNYT: Trump campaign is canceling hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising in Fla, NC, OH, possibly other states, per two buying sources.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:09 AM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


That means they changed something!
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 10:12 AM on October 7, 2016


@maggienytimes: Trump campaign is canceling hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising in Fla, NC, OH, possibly other states, per two buying sources.

It goes on:
Maggie Haberman
Cancelations represent next week's buy, per the sources. Possible they are shifting elsewhere for final three weeks
posted by Jalliah at 10:14 AM on October 7, 2016


Yes, they switched out Trump for a real, live killer whale. The polls have not changed.
posted by mochapickle at 10:14 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


A killer whale would probably make a better President than Trumppence.
posted by zutalors! at 10:15 AM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Where else are they going? IA and AZ?
posted by craven_morhead at 10:16 AM on October 7, 2016


@maggienytimes: Trump campaign is canceling hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising in Fla, NC, OH, possibly other states, per two buying sources.

What's encouraging about this news, if true, is that this election may be shaping up into a landslide that only the truly delusional could believe was stolen. Trump has precious little path to victory without either Ohio or Florida, and the currently available data doesn't suggest Trump is far enough ahead in either state to stop advertising.

If Trump's conceding Florida and Ohio in order to pursue some, ah, unorthodox strategy of getting to 270 electoral votes, Team Clinton must be welcoming the news.
posted by Gelatin at 10:18 AM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump: That's what we need, because you all saw the story on tv about the fighter jets our people are flying that are so old that they don't even make spare parts for them. We have to go to plane graveyards and museums to get parts.

Ah, yes. Finally, something I actually have a bit of direct knowledge about.

Nabbing spare parts from retired aircraft is both normal and sensible. Everyone operating aircraft--air force, airline, private pilot, whatever--has been doing it for basically as long as aircraft have existed.

The last thing we need is a big push for shiny new trillion dollar aircraft systems just because some dingdong is too stupid to realize that existing aircraft are more than capable of fulfilling the mission. "Grabbing spare parts from the aircraft graveyard" isn't even close to a good reason to replace a slightly older type of aircraft.

Back in 1982 I interned with the Air Force and sat next to a guy whose entire job was reverse-engineering parts for 20-30-40 year-old aircraft because spare parts were no longer available. He did this routinely for all sorts of parts and it really wasn't a big deal at all. When I came on in 1982, they were hiring a couple dozen more engineers and draftsmen to do the same job on a bigger scale.

If the part had been available from the graveyard--and safe to use--believe me, they would have been grabbing it from there in a millisecond. Why in the world would you order brand-new, highly expensive parts when you've already got them on hand in perfectly usable condition?

And it is far, far cheaper to scavenge parts from old planes or reverse-engineer them than it is to replace the entire aircraft. And I mean F-A-R cheaper--like somewhere between a thousandth and a millionth of the cost. And if you're talking about replacing an entire system--like the B-52--add a few more zeros to your savings. You can reverse-engineer a L-O-T of parts for the cost of one B-52, let alone the cost of designing and building a whole new replacement bomber system.

Our usual frame of reference is automobiles that (used) are worth somewhere between a few hundred and a few thousand dollars. When it gets hard to find replacement parts, at some point it makes sense just to junk the thing.

But when you're dealing with military aircraft and replacement cost is somewhere between a few million and a few HUNDRED million dollars per aircraft, and well into the trillions for rolling out a new state-of-the-art aircraft system, the calculation is far different. You can just hire a few engineers to reverse-engineer the part and a company to fabricate it. And pocket the $many-millions in savings.

Of course, if you can find a perfectly good replacement part on an aircraft that is no longer in service, so much the better. The fact that we are doing so shows how SMART we are, not the reverse.

FWIW you can find a rather lengthy re-telling of some of my experiences working for the Air Force in this area here. Story of how my engineer-friend reverse-engineered a no-longer-available part for an F-4 fighter (and why it was no longer available--a story in itself, and one that is directly relevant to Trump's idiotic remarks) is at the end of that link, or direct link here.
posted by flug at 10:18 AM on October 7, 2016 [103 favorites]


And in my leftist household it was Jane Fonda, brave protestor.

My mother found me playing with a toy gun when I was five and freaked out. My SO is a gun owner. It's a real mind warp fuckaroo, let me tell you.
posted by angrycat at 10:20 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes, they switched out Trump for a real, live killer whale

Free Willie Orca Trump!
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:21 AM on October 7, 2016



If Trump's conceding Florida and Ohio in order to pursue some, ah, unorthodox strategy of getting to 270 electoral votes, Team Clinton must be welcoming the news.

Or their excellent internal polling and elite-level political strategy is telling them those states are secure...oh hahaha, I forgot, they're clowns.
posted by zutalors! at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Late Night Vice-Presidential Debate

Seth Meyers does his answer record bit.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump has precious little path to victory without either Ohio or Florida, and the currently available data doesn't suggest Trump is far enough ahead in either state to stop advertising.

I believe TV networks want payment up front.

Perhaps they're hoarding cash for a final illegal "vote for Trump and we will give you money!" or just throwing bundles of used $100s into duffel bags.
posted by holgate at 10:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Since it's anti-Semitism day apparently, we've got more...

First, TPM's Josh Marshall has a personal reflection, Storm and Menace:
But in almost half a century of life it's pretty hard for me to think of many or even any examples where I've witnessed or been the target of the menace of anti-Semitism directly. Here I'm not talking about awkward comments or subtle discomfort or intense arguments about Israel. There was that one time in grade school where a friend called me a "Jew" and not in a nice way during a fight. I'm talking about neo-Nazi cartoons, threats and jokes about ovens, kike, juden, the rawest kind of avowed hostility and intentional menace. It's been so constant for the last six months that it feels like a new normal. The change has been that dramatic and that fast. I suspect there are few American Jews reading this who don't get immediately what I'm talking about.
...
One of the thing Jews carry with them instinctively is the knowledge that when one group gets targeted, even one they have no particular connection to, it will almost certainly, eventually come around to them too. This is, I believe, one of the things that keeps Jews anchored on the center-left and left of the political spectrum, even as they've become distinct and more Republican-looking by wealth, education-levels and other demographic characteristics. Breitbart News, the outfit that figuratively merged with the Trump campaign when it's CEO took over the Trump campaign, got started with whole sections about 'black crime' and a smorgasbord of anti-black and anti-Hispanic racism. But it didn't take them long to get on to full-throated anti-Semitism. Jews are a tiny minority of the US population. Most demographers would put their number at between 1.5 to 2 percent of the population, and closer to the lower end of that range. When race purity and tribalism become the order of the day it's going to be very hard for them not to end up as outsiders.
...
I doubt very much that there are many Jews who don't feel the change from 2015 to 2016 and very few who don't know where the change is coming from. I doubt Paul Ryan has an anti-Semitic bone in his body. But he's going to campaign with Trump on Saturday, the day before the second presidential debate. That's all I need to know.

I should make clear that I know that Blacks and Hispanic Americans - not to mention American Muslims - have been treated to as much and in many cases far more hostility and racism this year. It is the faintest kind of silver lining to what I've described above that the relative power and influence of many Jews has highlighted for them what our non-white brothers and sisters are experiencing routinely. But that only makes the larger point. When purity and tribalism become the order of the day in a country that is still largely white and Christian, we won't be part of the club.
And CNN has the story of a self-described neo-Nazi at a Trump rally, where other Trump supporters who choose not to identify as white supremacists shouted him down. He was escorted out.
posted by zachlipton at 10:24 AM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Or their excellent internal polling and elite-level political strategy is telling them those states are secure...oh hahaha, I forgot, they're clowns.

I considered the former possibility, but then remembered the story from only yesterday that apparently both camps' internal polling actually shows the race more in Clinton's favor, and then remembered that apparently Mitt Romney's campaign so fervently believed in "unskewed polls" that they were genuinely surprised to have lost.

Then I remembered that they're clowns.
posted by Gelatin at 10:27 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump has precious little path to victory without either Ohio or Florida

OR North Carolina, which my (safely blue) state has been diverting phone banking towards.

Question is, where is that money going instead? Shoring up safe states to avoid a blowout? Propping up the downticket?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


By not listening, you're telling them that they don't matter, and all this does is reassure them that they're right to be scared.

Who's not listening? It seems like we don't go more than a day or two without another sympathetic story about white rural voters who are turning to Trump because they feel hopeless and forgotten by society. Journalists have been fanning out across the country trying to understand why Trump's support is so high in Appalachia, the South, and rural areas of other states.

Meanwhile, there is no shortage of poverty in urban and even suburban areas of the country where people aren't responding in the same ways to Trump's appeals to xenophobia and racial animus. It's certainly valuable to hear about the well-meaning folks who are just in bad situations and lashing out because they see no other choice, but sometimes it's really hard to see the line between a positive description of what they're feeling and a normative defense of their worldview -- that it's okay to turn to bigotry, to stocking up on ammunition for the revolution, and to voting for a fascist demagogue.

At this point, we all know that people are hurting, including mostly white folks in mostly rural areas who are mostly supporting Donald Trump. I want to help them, but at the point they decide they're too good for the help, or think the help would go to the wrong people -- even though the numbers show that they and their neighbors soak up income support programs as much or more as the people they complain about -- I begin to wonder why it's so important that we hang on every word of their stories, and why we need to bend over backwards to interpret their repulsive words and actions in the most charitable way possible.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:31 AM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


Question is, where is that money going instead? Shoring up safe states to avoid a blowout? Propping up the downticket?

Both of those would make sense, so I'm going with, no and no.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Who's not listening? It seems like we don't go more than a day or two without another sympathetic story about white rural voters who are turning to Trump because they feel hopeless and forgotten by society.

NPR has that beat pretty well covered, all right.

Precious few profiles of Clinton voters that I've noticed, though.
posted by Gelatin at 10:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've spent the last couple of days trying to figure out how Donald can raid his own warchest for personal gain after the election is over. Every apparent path to doing so will get him prosecuted for fraud, but I honestly wonder if he's convinced himself that he really is made of Teflon, after the last few years haven't yielded any arraignments. Either way: go for it, Donald! There's money in a bank account associated with your name. Don't spend it on advertising on an election you're bound to lose! Just grab it and say you forgot it belonged to someone else.
posted by Mayor West at 10:32 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Question is, where is that money going instead? Shoring up safe states to avoid a blowout? Propping up the downticket?

One of the comments at Twitter assumed that the RNC has pulled its support, in which case that money doesn't actually exist - ads canceled because of lack of funds (and The Donald's unwillingness to fund out of pocket), rather than funds being redirected.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Perhaps they're hoarding cash for a final illegal "vote for Trump and we will give you money!" or just throwing bundles of used $100s into duffel bags.

If it looks as though Trump's fundraising will be bottoming out in October - especially in the aftermath of the first debate - then Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. has to have enough cash on hand to pay for the bare essentials of facilities rentals, catering, hotel stays, and air travel at Trump-owned businesses.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Apologies if someone has already linked this: 538 on the disparities between Clinton and Trump's ground games. I'm really curious to see how this plays out in the election post-mortem. Trump's "ground game" has seemed hilariously incompetent to me from the start. Is it going to matter? I'm really wondering how much of Trump's base will actually turn out, when crucial areas are lacking in GOTV efforts. I might be a little more concerned if those rallies of Trump's actually did have turnout in the tens of thousands, but they don't.
posted by yasaman at 10:36 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Question is, where is that money going instead?

The cancellations are for smaller (cheaper?) media markets, e.g. Greensboro and Wilmington in NC. Maybe they're flinging money at the bigger markets like Charlotte and the Triangle, maybe they're hoarding cash. Won't have the FEC filings for another couple of weeks.
posted by holgate at 10:39 AM on October 7, 2016


One of the comments at Twitter assumed that the RNC has pulled its support, in which case that money doesn't actually exist - ads canceled because of lack of funds (and The Donald's unwillingness to fund out of pocket), rather than funds being redirected.

Dear Lord,

I know I ain't been much for church, or bible study, or capitalizing the first letter in Your name, but if you give me this one gift, and the RNC actually publicly disavows their own presidential nominee, I promise to gin You up some nice burnt offerings on a bronze altar.

Yours,
MW
posted by Mayor West at 10:40 AM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


Question is, where is that money going instead?

Campaign events held at Trump properties (i.e his pocket)?
posted by zakur at 10:42 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's campaign is bankrupt.
posted by humanfont at 10:43 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


As noted, the money might just not exist. Or it might be going one way or another into Trump's pocket instead of being spent usefully. Maybe Trump is going to spend it flying himself and some Secret Service people around in circles for a few hours, or putting some Secret Service people up in the Yooge Awesome Suites in Trump properties.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:44 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone who's tired of being asked to sympathize with white Trump voters and their fear, I recommend FiveThirtyEight's podcast feature on Democratic leaning voters, which includes Muslim and Mexican Americans and their fear, which is a refreshing and welcome change, to me.

The first episode is about those leaning Republican and their white fears.
posted by zutalors! at 10:45 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


The cancellations are for smaller (cheaper?) media markets, e.g. Greensboro and Wilmington in NC.

Wouldn't those be more favorable to him?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:47 AM on October 7, 2016


Where Trump has cancelled buys next week, per ad tracker:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:48 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, on listening: I have really, genuinely grappled hard with this. I pride myself on being an empathetic person and on being willing to see different perspectives. And I don't deny that the core base of Trump supporters are in genuine pain, and have genuine fears and anxieties that need to be addressed. But I am at a loss as to how to do that when so many of them will not join us in, like, objective reality. Never mind Trump supporters not listening to or accepting my own lived experiences, there's a fundamental disconnect here on the order of not accepting that 2 + 2 = 4. Unless Fox News has some sort of come to Jesus epiphany and publicly goes, "you guys, we fucked up. we fucked up bad. we've been bad for the country and almost enabled the death of the republic, and we're sorry. we're gonna change," I don't see that the distrust of liberal-biased reality will be fixed.

In the face of that, listening starts to feel like enabling. I'd rather we (and by we, I mean the nation and government at large) just take steps to make concrete improvements in the lives of disaffected white voters, act rather than talk. Take action against opiate and prescription drug overuse/addiction, improve economic opportunities, improve education, etc.
posted by yasaman at 10:50 AM on October 7, 2016 [32 favorites]


Wouldn't those be more favorable to him?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Robert Costa just reported that Trump was booked into the Ritz-Carlton in Denver, one of the few times he's spent a night in a non-Trump property, and he complained that he wanted to stay in a Holiday Inn Express because he considers the chain "cleaner". And cheaper.
posted by holgate at 10:52 AM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've wondered for the last week why Trump is advertising in Massachusetts at all, but it may be spill-over from the New Hampshire buys (we see all the anti-Ayotte and anti-Maggie Hassan ads here, because the greater Boston stations also serve most of New Hampshire).
posted by yhbc at 10:53 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Amazing long Twitter thread from T. R. Ramachandran discussing Hillary-Hatred Derangement Syndrome and the caricature of Hillary as divisive or polarizing. Includes tons of quotes from people who've worked with her (especially Republicans). Could come in handy.

Also compiled here for those who aren't into long threads on Twitter.
posted by glhaynes at 10:53 AM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'd rather we (and by we, I mean the nation and government at large) just take steps to make concrete improvements in the lives of disaffected white voters,

Like, say, make healthcare affordable?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I was watching MSNBC one morning a few months ago, and they had an Indian American startup guy (I am Indian American) talking about his white people empathy, being all, "Yeah, I get it, these people are seeing all these brown faces in their neighborhoods, and they're scared. It's different, they're so scared. Someone like me, I have to understand that."

I was shouting at my television, friends. I just cannot understand this.
posted by zutalors! at 10:54 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


How Donald Trump Uses the Tax Code in Ways You Can’t
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cancelling his ad buy in Dayton? Darn. I rather enjoyed seeing one of his inane "We're going to Make America Great" TV ads followed shortly by one of Hillary's ads completely devastating him with his own words.
posted by zakur at 10:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yasaman, we could do much more of that sort of thing much more easily if the people who we were trying to help would agree that it was a good idea. That's one of the issues with living in a democracy. These people aren't just abstaining from social progress, they are actually standing in the way. It would be better if we could bring them on board, and to do that we need to understand where they're coming from. It's not an easy process and there's not a simple, one-step solution.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Charlie Pierce: If Trump Wins, Paul Ryan's Budget Plan Will Destroy 'Ordinary Americans'
Speaker Paul Ryan, the zombie-eyed granny starver from the state of Wisconsin and first runner-up in the last vice-presidential pageant, has some plans. They are not all that different from his previous plans, which generally called for making permanent the consistent upward transfer of the nation's wealth to which he has dedicated his entire political life. That is, the portion of his life that was not financed by you, me, and our uncle Fud through the Social Security survivor's benefits that Ryan now believes to be destructive to the work ethic of millions of people who are not him.
[...]
Back in 1980, when I was covering my first presidential campaign as a baby alternative journo, there was a feeling in the land, stoked in part by clueless progressive who had as little use for President Jimmy Carter as Jill Stein has for Hillary Rodham Clinton, that what the Reagan people were proposing was mere campaign bloviation and that, if and when he was elected, Reagan would have to moderate his dependence on, say, supply-side economics, which even Republicans thought was a lunatic's excuse for an economic policy.

But, out in Youngstown one day, in a bar on Steel Street, an old union guy told me that this was a mistake. He remembered literally fighting the oligarchs of his day and he told me that, when they say what they want to do, they mean it. He was right.

Make no mistake when you vote this year. If they get the chance, Paul Ryan and the Republicans will do what they say they want to do. They are true believers, cult-like in their allegiance to the money power, and religious in their devotion to the alleged character-building benefits of poverty. They are not committed to building a viable political commonwealth. They are committed to something very much darker.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:56 AM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]


Nabbing spare parts from retired aircraft is both normal and sensible. Everyone operating aircraft--air force, airline, private pilot, whatever--has been doing it for basically as long as aircraft have existed.

Thanks for this superb comment, flug. The only thing I think worth adding is the fact that there's a tremendous amount of documentation on aircraft maintenance and people aren't aware of it. Repurposing a part isn't just a matter of go wander the scrapyard aisle and pick something that looks okay. If someone took a flap off a wing on aircraft A to put on aircraft Z they (1) had a pile of documentation to consult about the entire life of that flap up till then and (B) now that transfer is documented for plane Z as well.

The lack of faith in professionalism amongst so much of the American citizenry is super depressing sometimes, whether it be about government employees or military mechanics. I would say it says a lot more about the behavior of the people saying this stuff too if I haven't heard so much of it from accomplished people in other rigorous industries as well.
posted by phearlez at 10:57 AM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


One of the thing Jews carry with them instinctively is the knowledge that when one group gets targeted, even one they have no particular connection to, it will almost certainly, eventually come around to them too.

This is the first and likely most important lesson I ever learned in my first 19 years. Though I am an atheist, I still identify strongly as a Jew because to me, being a Jew meant that

1. The concept of "sin" was that you missed the mark (as in archery) and you would try better next time to hit the bullseye.
2. Atonement meant that you had to atone directly to the person you had harmed, just atoning to God wouldn't work.
3. Atonement could never be complete, because you could never find every feather in the pillow again.
4. Tikkun olam (repairing the world) was our primary mission and every effort should be made to help those who were less fortunate that we were, on a local and global scale.
5. Martin Niemoller's poem was hung in brass in the hallway of our shul. It was taught in every grade.

I never understood Jews who didn't follow the same path I was taught until I realized how tied my shul was to social justice.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:59 AM on October 7, 2016 [78 favorites]


Like, say, make healthcare affordable?

Yes! For everyone, not just people in states whose governors haven't gone, "lol nah, and also fuck you."
posted by yasaman at 11:01 AM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


he complained that he wanted to stay in a Holiday Inn Express

It's debate prep!

"Are you an unhinged racist lunatic running for president of the United States?"

"No, but I did stay in Holiday Inn Express last night."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:02 AM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


uh kirkaracha you beat me to the best joke ever
posted by zutalors! at 11:03 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


On top of the great comment flug made, I wanted to share this Google Maps view.

This is an aerial view of AMARG, the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, in Arizona. Zoom in on that a little bit, and you will see rows upon carefully planned rows of multi-million dollar airplanes. This single facility has over 4000 aircraft, and it is far from "a junkyard". There are careful procedures to preserve and protect every craft here, specifically so that components can be reused to keep our airframes functional.

This two-bit huckster wants to make it sound like our air forces are being maintained by yahoos with hacksaws because America isn't Great(tm), but the reality is that this is a stellar example of just the kind of fiscal conservativism that Republicans claim to be in favor of, and it's an amazing thing.

Unfortunately, it doesn't funnel more funds into Lockheed and Boeing, so you know...

(On edit, what phearlez said, too.)
posted by jammer at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


Trump has precious little path to victory without either Ohio or Florida, and the currently available data doesn't suggest Trump is far enough ahead in either state to stop advertising.

Just tried, I can't make a plausible Trump victory map conceeding Ohio and Florida. This is as close as I could come, conceding him North Carolina (a reach), and Colorado (a bigger reach), and even giving him Wisconsin and Pennsylvania due to wildly successful disenfranchisement and poll intimidation (this is crazy talk). He'd need all of that, plus another state, do they think he can win Michigan or Minnesota?
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:05 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I know a lot of folks in these threads listen to Keepin' it 1600, so I thought y'all might appreciate this little Politico profile of the "Obama bros."
Favreau, who left the White House in 2013, has been, in some ways, connected to this election from the beginning: He helped write Obama’s White House Correspondents’ Dinner roast of Trump, which is now credited with spurring a humiliated Trump to run for president. In a recent PBS “Frontline” special, former “Apprentice” contestant and Trump supporter Omarosa Manigault said of Obama’s speech that night in 2011: “It just kept going and going, and he just kept hammering him. And I thought, ‘Oh, Barack Obama is starting something that I don’t know if he’ll be able to finish.’”

Her comment sent a cold chill down Favreau’s spine. “I texted Lovett,” he said, “and I said, ‘OK, maybe we did do something bad here.’”
posted by xyzzy at 11:08 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


New Quinnipiac poll out today
A 20 percentage-point lead among women and a 45-point lead among non-white voters lift Democrat Hillary Clinton to a 45 - 40 percent likely voter lead over Republican Donald Trump, with 6 percent for Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson and 3 percent for Green Party candidate Jill Stein, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.
Among 18-34 year olds (change from early Sept)

Clinton 48 (+17)
Trump 27 (+1)
Johnson 11 (-18)
Stein 9 (-6)
[via @mikememoli]
posted by melissasaurus at 11:09 AM on October 7, 2016 [32 favorites]


People close to Trump insisted that the candidate was learning the right lessons from his rocky first debate. He has watched footage of that performance, as well as that of Indiana Gov. Mike Pence in this week’s vice-presidential debate.

“What he lost last Monday were opportunities that she served up on a silver platter,” Caputo said.

I'd admire their optimism if they weren't so dangerous and awful. Instead I'm just going to enjoy snickering at their hubris. Do they really think, looking at the operation that Clinton has run for the last few months and the quality of the DNC, that she ever shows them an opening that she hadn't practiced a counter for? There's things Clinton is vulnerable on and I doubt at this point that anyone knows those things better than the Clinton campaign.

By all means, Trumpists - tell yourself that your candidate just needs to spot those things and not get distracted kissing his own ass rather than following up. Maybe he'll even manage this time. I have little doubt that he'll be completely caught flat-footed when she turns around and knocks it out of the park. The best part about that is that I question they'll even be able to recognize it happened. It'll be the veep debate all over again, where they pat themselves on the back initially and then are blinking like a deer in headlights the next day because nobody who wasn't already in the bag for them was convinced by shit.
posted by phearlez at 11:10 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Russia Lodges Complaint After UN Official Criticizes Donald Trump
Russia's government lodged a formal complaint last month with the United Nations over a top U.N. official's condemnations of Donald Trump and some European politicians, diplomats told The Associated Press, an intervention that underscores the unusual links between the Republican presidential nominee and the Kremlin[...]

Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, issued a verbal "demarche" to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon in a private meeting on Sept. 13, according to three diplomats familiar with the conversation. Churkin angrily protested a pair of speeches by Zeid that denounced "demagogues" and specifically targeted Trump and several populist leaders in Europe, even likening their tactics to Islamic State propaganda.

In a speech in Cleveland three months before Republicans gathered there to nominate Trump, Zeid said: "Less than 150 miles away from where I speak, a front-running candidate to be president of this country declared, just a few months ago, his enthusiastic support for torture."

"In what may be a crucial election for leadership of this country later this year, we have seen a full-frontal attack — disguised as courageous taboo-busting — on some fundamental, hard-won tenets of decency and social cohesion that have come to be accepted by American society," he said.

Demarches, or formal, diplomatic communications, are everyday occurrences. At the United Nations, they're generally used to question broader foreign policy questions and sometimes used to complain. But they rarely center on specific individuals, let alone involve a Russian complaint about how the U.N. is treating an American politician.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:14 AM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


NPR has that beat pretty well covered, all right.

Precious few profiles of Clinton voters that I've noticed, though.

Thanks, I forgot I was going to send this to NPR after hearing my fourth-in-a-row Trump supporter this morning:
I just wanted to comment on the recent series of interviews with supporters of the Republican and Democratic candidates for the US Presidential Election.

I listen to NPR on WCQS on my commute in the morning and evening, and I've heard these interviews only in the morning portion, between 7 and 7:30 AM. To date I've heard four of these, and all of them have been in support of the Republican candidate. They have also always included at least one of the following types of comments by the interviewee: racism, bigotry, treason (proposing armed insurrection), misogyny, intolerance toward Islam, and blatant misstatements of facts. These comments have gone completely unquestioned by your interviewers.

To be clear, I'm not calling NPR biased. What I'm saying is that from my perspective your programming makes you sound biased. I'm open to the possibility that you are airing the opinions of supporters of the Democratic candidate at times when I'm not listening, but from my hearing these four interviews, statistics say I can have a high confidence that you are not giving voice to alternate opinions. Please consider the possibility that the timing of your programming is introducing unexpected bias in your coverage.
posted by achrise at 11:17 AM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


From r317's NYTs link:

This can go on as long as Mr. Trump continues to do like-kind exchanges. If the proceeds continue to be reinvested in real estate until Mr. Trump dies, all income taxes on the accumulated gains between the depreciated value and the sale price will vanish.

Whut?!

Also, the depreciation on (commercial physical) property is kind of WTF/perverse-incentive in today's (high demand) messed up real estate market. Appreciations in those markets are mostly driven by the actual land, not the building or furnishings.
posted by porpoise at 11:18 AM on October 7, 2016


The decedent's assets get a step-up in basis to the fair market value on the date of death (or a later alternate date, in some cases). This is the trade off for the estate tax. The estate pays the estate tax, the heirs get the assets at their current value.

Many Republicans want to repeal the estate tax but keep the step up in basis.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:21 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


How do I depreciate my property? The city sure as hell isn't.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


do they think he can win Michigan or Minnesota?

If Trymp takes Minnesota I will buy a ten gallon hat just so I can eat it. Then I will pack my kittens in a basket and head for the border.
posted by localhuman at 11:26 AM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


> "Or is he going to claim that he's spent more time managing his businesses than he has running for office?"

I doubt running for President actually counts as a job.
posted by kyrademon at 11:27 AM on October 7, 2016


Given his Apprentice show, Steak marketing, Howard Stern appearances. . . has Trump ever spent 50% of his work time in real estate?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:28 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Has Trump ever had "work time"?
posted by melissasaurus at 11:30 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Among 18-34 year olds (change from early Sept)

Clinton 48 (+17)
Trump 27 (+1)
Johnson 11 (-18)
Stein 9 (-6)

You know the bit in 8 Ball Bunny where Playboy starts jumping up and down and clapping his little pen-goo-in mitts? Yeah.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


John Burns, Wake County Commissioner, responds to the GOP's open invitation of voter suppression.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


From Robert Costa's and Philip Rucker's "Trump prepares for debate rebound but refuses to be controlled":
For Trump and his bleary team, [Monday] was a victory. The candidate was back on script and seemingly back on track.

But Trump was still Trump. As his motorcade pulled into Denver’s Ritz-Carlton hotel for the night, Trump was in a fury. He lashed out at aides for booking such luxurious accommodations, saying he would have preferred to stay at a Holiday Inn Express — a chain he considers reliably clean — as he did on occasion during the primaries, according to three people familiar with the episode who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution.
That's it! That explains everything! Trump thinks he's qualified to be President because he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:33 AM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Small bit from the NH Town Hall event: How do you define the income range for middle-class; it cannot be based on where you live because the US tax codes do not discriminate based on geography?

Trump's answer took 2 min 23 seconds, and I was fascinated enough to want the whole thing, corrected from the auto-subtitles text:
Well, look out, the way I look at it, the middle class has been forgotten in this country. Taxes are too high, jobs have been taken away from you, our-- a lot of our companies, lot of great companies have left our country. They've gone to Mexico and other places. China is making so much of our product; we don't make product anymore anywhere near like we used to . And I will tell you, it’s such a great question, because our middle class has been treated so badly by the politicians. I mean, it's like forgotten.

And we're lowering taxes, as you know, way down for the middle class; we're changing the tax structure completely—we had seven brackets, now we have three, and we’re bringing it down. Actually, for those making not a lot, it’s zero, and we don't want them to send them, because that's huge bureaucratically, and extremely costly, but we're bringing the rates down to numbers that are much lower. You've seen the numbers—much lower, and you're going to have a much lower tax base.

Hillary Clinton's raising your taxes way up. I don't even know what she's thinking. She's rais— We're already the highest taxed nation in the world, just about. They can maybe find, every once in a while, they’ll say, they’ll fact-check me—"well, yknow there’s a nation that you never heard of, where it’s slightly higher"—we are just about, industrial— of the industrialized nations, we’re the highest taxpayers in the world. We’re the highest tax nation in the world

Our business taxes are going to be brought from 35% to fifteen percent. We’re cutting regulations, which are abso—we want regulation for environmental, we want regulation for safety, but the regulations are massive now, they’re massive, and we're cutting the regulations at a tremendous clip. And I would say, seventy percent of the regulations can go. It's, it's just stopping businesses from growing.

And I think you're going to see a tremendous change in this country. We're going to see jobs come back; we're going to see companies come back into our country. And right now, they're just leaving. It's a one-way street out. We have a one-way street right out of the country, and they're going largely to Mexico and other places but Mexico is… the eighth wonder of the world.

I tell this story a lot. I have a friend who builds plants, and he builds these massive plants, and he says “Donald, you have to see what's going on in Mexico.” I said, “How about our country.” He goes, “Not so much.”
We're gonna switch that around a little bit. And we'll get along great with Mexico, by the way, but we've gotta switch that around. It's been a one-way highway out of the United States.
470 words of absolutely not remotely answering the question itself. His supporters may not care - hey, he said the important thing, "your taxes will be lower," but his detractors will notice that he can't answer a simple question.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:34 AM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Brian Beutler: New “#NeverTrump, But Also Floridians Should Be Disenfranchised Because Of A Hurricane” Movement emerges.
Rick Scott’s decision presented #NeverTrump conservatives with a clear and cost-free opportunity to flesh out their Trump opposition, but seemingly every one of them has taken a pass.

Voter registrations tend to surge ahead of deadlines. In Florida alone, 50,000 people registered in the days leading up to the deadline four years ago. Many of those displaced by the hurricane this year who haven’t already registered will now be unable to meet the October 11 deadline, which means some significant number of adults who intended to vote will be disenfranchised. As we learned in 2000, numbers like these can be decisive, not just in Florida, but for the whole election.

Scott suggested he could theoretically extend the deadline a few days if he so desired, but has chosen not to. If “never” means “never,” and not just “you vote for Trump so I don’t have to,” condemning Scott here is a freebie, and the right thing to do. Basically nobody on the right took the occasion to do so.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:35 AM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


I hate to say "I told you so"in regards to the inevitable collapse of polling for third party candidates.

Johnson and Stein are total clownboats.

Granted so is Trump but at least Trump has the verbal backing of a major party behind him. Johnson on the other hand doesn't seem to even have the support of his VP.

Stein of course has endeared herself to so many by actually implying Trump would be preferable to Clinton.
posted by vuron at 11:38 AM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


DeNeen L. Brown: ‘I don’t scare easily’: A 94-year-old judge’s refusal to bow to racism, death threats
Last month, he issued a scathing 38-page dissent in an Ohio voting rights case, accusing two colleagues on the 6th Circuit Court of turning their backs on African American voters likely to be affected by restrictions on early and absentee voting. He included photos and biographies of 36 people who died during the long struggle for civil rights and equal protection, including the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and Emmett Till.

“By denying the most vulnerable the right to vote,” he wrote, “the Majority shuts minorities out of our political process. Rather than honor the men and women whose murdered lives opened the doors of our democracy and secured our right to vote, the Majority has abandoned this court’s standard of review in order to conceal the votes of the most defenseless behind the dangerous veneers of factual findings lacking support and legal standards lacking precedent.”

He also warned, “The unfettered right to vote is the bedrock of a free and democratic society — without it, such a society cannot stand.”

Then he created even more of a stir by giving an interview to Slate lamenting “the racist attitude of the majority” and mentioning his two colleagues on the panel, John Rogers and Danny Boggs.

He doesn’t apologize for calling them out by name.

“I thought the panel’s decision was racist,” he told The Washington Post. He noted that his grandparents couldn’t vote in Georgia. His fellow judges, he said, “don’t know what we’ve gone through. They don’t know what I’ve gone through.”
posted by zombieflanders at 11:39 AM on October 7, 2016 [47 favorites]


This bit is important:
To fix the situation, Trump advocated a combination of higher tax rates for the rich and the restoration of special exemptions for real estate investment. Together, they would incentivize people seeking to lower their tax bills to invest in real estate. Trump called for accelerated depreciation of property and rules that encouraged certain investors to seek out “passive losses” that could offset their other income and slash their steep tax bills. Trump cited wealthy dentists as the typical investor he hoped to attract.
Trump didn't just want tax loopholes for himself, he wanted real estate investing to be more of a tax shelter for dentists and the like. This is the kind of behavior that directly leads to bubbles and is usually what Republicans are complaining about when they say that the government shouldn't direct investment to particular kinds of assets.

And hawking horrible real estate deals to dentists is a classic con. If they're down to the dentists, that means the developer has exhausted anybody who knows enough to run like hell away from the project. Warren Meyer, a libertarian climate change denying small business owner who blogs as Coyote Blog isn't exactly someone I always agree with, but he had this to say in 2005 (while pointing out we seem to be in a housing bubble):
However, over the weekend I had a disturbing experience: At a social function, I heard a dentist enthusiastically telling a doctor that he needs to be buying condos and raw land. The dentist claimed to be flipping raw land parcels for 100% in less than 6 months.

For those who don't know, this is a big flashing red light. When doctors and dentists start trying to sell you on a particular type of investment, run away like they have the plague. At Harvard Business School, I had a great investment management class with a professor who has schooled many of the best in the business. If an investment we were analyzing turned out to be a real dog, he would ask us "who do you sell this to?" and the class would shout "doctors!" And, if the investment was really, really bad, to the point of being insane, the class would instead shout "dentists!"
This is what Trump was talking about when he cheered on the crash and called it "business."
posted by zachlipton at 11:39 AM on October 7, 2016 [49 favorites]


I'm hoping that Hillary will crack 80% in the 538 polls-only model today.

You got your wish!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:39 AM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


How do I depreciate my property?

Build a big box store on it.
posted by ckape at 11:41 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Trump didn't just want tax loopholes for himself, he wanted real estate investing to be more of a tax shelter for dentists and the like. This is the kind of behavior that directly leads to bubbles ...

I realize that analyzing and arguing over Trump's policy goals is pointlessly stupid, but isn't this a bit too brazen even for him? His tax proposals will inflate the value of his holdings and create a bubble in the asset class he is most associated with - and they can have that as their policy? How do they keep straight faces?
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:44 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


How Hostile Poll-Watchers Could Hand Pennsylvania to Trump: "The state’s unique rules make it vulnerable to Election Day mischief. In a tight race, that could help Donald Trump."
In 2004, hundreds of University of Pittsburgh students waited for hours to vote in the presidential election. The local Democratic Party, alarmed at the bottleneck, handed out pizza and water to encourage the students to stay. Pittsburgh Steelers Hall-of-Famer Franco Harris worked the line, armed with a giant bag of Dunkin Donuts, and Liz Berlin of the Pittsburgh band Rusted Root performed on guitar.

The stalled line wasn’t because of the high turnout. It was what was happening at the check-in desk.

“The attorneys for the Republican Party were challenging the credentials of pretty much every young voter who showed up,” recalls Pat Clark, a Pittsburgh activist and registered Democrat who was working for an election-protection group that day.
posted by zachlipton at 11:45 AM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


Yes, and I'm doing a little dance at my desk. Arizona has ticked up a tiny bit too, just on the basis of trend line adjustment I think, but no new polls have come in for the state today. I'm still expecting that the model is lagging behind actual support for HRC in AZ, and that when we get some more data there it'll turn blue. Hopefully we'll see that soon.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


He attacked Hillary Clinton, alleging with no evidence that when the Democratic nominee says she is preparing for debates, she is actually “resting.” 

I think the press really needs to ask Trump to explain why he thinks sleeping is a sign of weakness. The need for sleep is not a theory. No one comes to the office saying "I got three hours of sleep; let's tackle that big project!' No one says they wish they got less sleep last night. People like sleeping so much that sometimes they do it in 20 minute increments during the day, and it can even make them more productive!

I want my president to be well-rested and clear-thinking and I really want the press to corner him on this. (And if this taunt is specific to Hillary being a woman he should have to say it or squirm out of saying it.)
posted by Room 641-A at 11:51 AM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Yeah, but 538's headline right now is "The Year of the Cubs", so come on.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:53 AM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


We Need to Stop Bragging About How Little Sleep We Get

Not unique to Trump by a long shot.
posted by phearlez at 11:54 AM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


The light-light pink of Arizona feels like it will be illusory but still it would be hilarious if the one remaining safe state for Republicans in the Southwest is Utah.

Georgia is also looking like a nice shade of salmon but I think that's still probably 4-8 years of demographic change to achieve.
posted by vuron at 11:55 AM on October 7, 2016


...by not extending the registration by two days, Florida Governor and Trump SuperPAC chairman Rick Scott may be disenfranchising about 20,000 people at a single stroke?

The thing about this is, let's say he blocked 20,000 voters from registering and that 75% of those were for Clinton, and 50% of those would actually make it to the poles (which is only a little below average, but I think that people waiting to the very last minute might not be "likely voters"). So he maybe he prevented a 5000 net vote gain for Clinton. Out of a pool of ≈8.5 million votes cast. A 0.06% bump for Mr. Trump!

Until you factor in all the people who are going to be pissed off about this and make an extra special dedicated effort to get out and vote.

It's like the notion that a system can have two moving parts is lost on these people. (A concept which probably needs a place in the shaving kit too.)
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rick Scott is so ghastly

This could be said about any of the last 50 things he's done, but I just needed to get it out there.
posted by zutalors! at 12:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


When you remember that Bush was able to get the Supreme Court to steal Florida, and thus the Presidency, for him in 2000 on a margin of less than 500 votes, I think even a bump of 0.06% for Trump sounds threatening.
posted by sotonohito at 12:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


Donald Trump Will Have His Revenge on Republicans
After November, if Hillary Clinton wins the presidency, Republicans will be tempted to gloss over the entire ugly Trumpian chapter in their history; Pence has shown that, under certain circumstances at least, such a strategy can be successful. The challenge the party will face is Trump himself, who interprets all efforts to play him down as personal indignities. If Sunday’s town hall–style presidential debate isn’t the forum he has in mind for righting Pence’s snub, Clinton will probably bait him into doing it anyhow.

Eventually, though, there will be no mistaking the fact that Trump commandeered the GOP and remade it in his image. And if he loses next month’s election, it’s a safe bet that he’ll lash out just like he did this week, with devastating consequences for the party.
...
During the VP debate, Pence feigned umbrage at Democrat Tim Kaine’s completely accurate observation that Trump has praised Russian President Vladimir Putin on the campaign trail. Pence further contradicted Trump by calling Putin “a small and bullying leader.” His attempt to invert the clear record was ultimately unsuccessful, but Trump couldn’t let well enough alone. Instead, before the same Henderson crowd, he felt compelled to re-establish the fact that he still sees promise in the Russian autocrat: “I don’t love [Putin], I don’t hate. We’ll see how it works. We’ll see. Maybe we’ll have a good relationship. Maybe we’ll have a horrible relationship. Maybe we’ll have a relationship right in the middle.”

Goldilocks diplomacy.

Pence likewise grappled with Trump’s mass deportation plan, his proposed Muslim ban, and his nuclear proliferation advocacy by simply denying they exist. His lying was likely an act of self-preservation, but in an axiomatic sense it was also disrespectful. Trump tops the ticket, he sets the agenda, and Pence isn’t supposed to have unilateral authority to rewrite the playbook or speak before Trump has spoken. Even if Pence was simply trying to make it through the debate without self-destructing, he still took liberties Trump can’t be seen to tolerate.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


He attacked Hillary Clinton, alleging with no evidence that when the Democratic nominee says she is preparing for debates, she is actually “resting.”

I've been boggling over this since last night. Consider:

1) If he doesn't think this is actually true, then it's just a cheap shot about Hillary's supposed decrepitude.
2) Combined with other things he's said, masculinity = strong, not needing rest, femininity = weak, needing rest. Only LADIES and SUCKERS are actually asleep at 3 AM!!! Surely most people's experience with sleep deprivation is sufficient experience to understand this is nonsense. You ever tried driving while sleepy? It's worse than driving drunk.
3) If he does think this is actually true, lol because:
a) it means he's trying to convince himself that he doesn't really need to prepare. The way he characterized that practice-but-not-actually-practice townhall bears this out;
b) it means he literally cannot comprehend that a woman can work hard, and that hard work can mean she will win;
c) and Trump's Mirror suggests that he's the one resting or the one who wants to rest.
4) Whether he believes this is true or not, he wants his supporters to think that he, Donald Trump, can sail into a debate with minimal preparation (because both preparing and resting are for SUCKERS and LADIES) and still win, becuase it's not enough to win, he has to win and make it seem like he did it without even trying.

God, he is a mass of neuroses and issues, and they're all so fucking transparent.
posted by yasaman at 12:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


God, he is a mass of neuroses and issues, and they're all so fucking transparent.

Well, yes on the former, no on the latter as your own post shows.

It's like the basket of deplorables. It's not whether they're there, it's how many and what type?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump will be speaking at a Republican Hindu Coalition rally in New Jersey on October 15. [link to tweet w Trump's video invitation]

So, to recap, next weekend (3wks to election day): fewer ads in swing states, candidate in NJ.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think he just likes the fact that his supporters get a kick out of it when he says she's resting. He's just a performing monkey.
posted by zutalors! at 12:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


There's a Trumpsplanation for that, too..
posted by y2karl at 12:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Where Trump has cancelled buys next week, per ad tracker:

It's an interesting list, since it's primarily the smaller rural markets in the swing states - including everywhere in FL except Miami, Orlando/Daytona and Tampa; everywhere in IA except Des Moines; everywhere in OH except Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus, everywhere in NC except Charlotte and Raleigh.

I'm not sure what this means - is the campaign now advertising in only the major cities, which have more expensive media time and less receptive voters? A lot of the Trump campaign is about turning out the base; from this perspective, this makes no sense. Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 12:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


He attacked Hillary Clinton, alleging with no evidence that when the Democratic nominee says she is preparing for debates, she is actually “resting.”

It's gonna be so delicious when he realizes that he's pre-admitted that she beat his ass again after doing literally nothing to prepare.
posted by Etrigan at 12:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


You know, I've heard a fair amount of criticsm of 538's prognostications in here over the last few weeks and I'm wondering if anyone would care to elaborate. My position has been that while I think their punditry sometimes falls victim to the need to generate a new article about the election every few hours, their actual models are fairly predictive. I get that there have been swings in the presidential election forecast—it's been basically 50/50 a couple of times, with HRC win probability peaking in the 80s in between those troughs—but I don't feel like that's necessarily a sign of weakness in the model itself so much as it's a sign that we've been having a pretty weird election cycle.

Many of the swings have been attributable to distinct events or series of events which were kind of hard to predict ("Hillary's bad weekend," HRC crushing it in the first debate, etc) and Nate Silver has for years said that it's not until this phase of the campaigns that the predictions start to become really reliable. He's been pretty transparent about their methodology, and I agree with pretty much all of the choices that he's made (the ones he's talked about) in terms of how he and his team built their forecasting model. He's also resisted the unscientific urge to tweak the system on the fly when it didn't seem to be working quite right, instead hewing to the nerve-wracking but methodologically sound practice of just turning it on and letting the chips fall where they will.

I read their reportage mostly for entertainment value, and for the juicy tidbits of statistical info that Nate drops about how the model works. From what I can see it looks like a pretty complex beast, but a very deliberately crafted one and one where he's consistently made defensible, sensible choices about how it was put together. He seems to understand how it works, what it can say, where it falls short, and he has done a good job of predicting how the model itself will react to various scenarios, so if you pay attention you can see it working as described.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't get why people are so down on 538 this cycle. Is it just that their punditry is at times a bit silly (though I think it's still better than average) or does it run deeper than that? Are we mad at them because they told us back in the primaries that Donald Trump probably couldn't win, even though the polls consistently had him in the lead? I think their autopsy report there was remarkably transparent and honest, and I feel like they've learned their lesson—which was, basically, that you should trust aggregated polls (within limits) but take even cautious and well-informed punditry with a big grain of salt. Is that all it is, or is there a deeper problem with them that I'm not aware of?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


So is trump making statements on the Central Park 5 because he thinks it's a good idea or was he forced into it in some way?
posted by Artw at 12:17 PM on October 7, 2016


Maybe he heard that everything's legal in New Jersey, thought he could get away from the NY Attorney General there.
posted by zachlipton at 12:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Trump will be happy when he can keep giving these speeches without the pretense of running for president. No advisors telling him what to do to get elected, just pure id.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?

On Twitter, they're bragging about adding an extra million in ad spending, which is like nothing in terms of a national election. Sad!
posted by drezdn at 12:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


His current moves such as pulling advertising and campaigning in completely safe Hilary states seems like he's giving up and conserving as much campaign cash as possible.

Considering that I believe that any "donations" that he's made to his campaign have technically been loans with interest I think he might be wanting to maintain a certain cushion of campaign cash so that as a creditor to the campaign he knows he'll be getting paid.

I wonder if he's also going to be going to events that will force the Secret Service to pay to protect him. I assume when he stays in Trump properties he's forcing the Secret Service to pay premiums over market rates.
posted by vuron at 12:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


When you remember that Bush was able to get the Supreme Court to steal Florida, and thus the Presidency, for him in 2000 on a margin of less than 500 votes, I think even a bump of 0.06% for Trump sounds threatening.

If the election does come down to Florida, and a legal battle erupts, pay very close attention to who shows up to defend Trump. In 2000, there was also a racist governor gung-ho for the candidate (Jeb!), as well as two high-powered lawyers who were longtime proponents of racist voter suppression. One of them ended up becoming the Chief Justice of SCOTUS and author of the decision that helped usher in the new Jim Crow laws (Roberts), while another became a Senator and GOP presidential candidate who is just as bigoted as Trump (Cruz).
posted by zombieflanders at 12:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


You know, I've heard a fair amount of criticsm of 538's prognostications in here over the last few weeks and I'm wondering if anyone would care to elaborate.

I think it's stuff like this:
@natesilver538 [10/5]
Each of these outcomes now about equally likely:
—Clinton landslide (8+ point win)
—Obamaish win (4-7 points)
—Narrow Clinton win
—Trump win

Snarky response from @pixelatedboat [retweeted by Sam Wang]:
*anything happens*
Nate Silver: Ah, just as I predicted

actual response from @samwangphd [10/7]:
Let's sharpen this. Based on polls, HRC win probability is 93%. Likely range, 4-9 points and 300-340 EV. http://election.princeton.edu
posted by melissasaurus at 12:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


It seems like we don't go more than a day or two without another sympathetic story about white rural voters who are turning to Trump because they feel hopeless and forgotten by society. Journalists have been fanning out across the country trying to understand why Trump's support is so high in Appalachia, the South, and rural areas of other states.

I highly recommend the Primary Concerns episode with Jamelle Bouie: How White Media Minimizes Racism.

Bouie's thesis, paraphrased, is that the media has a cottage industry of reporters looking to write sympathetic profiles of white voters who have nominally non-racist motives for voting for Trump, exploring their economic anxiety, etc.

But there's no parallel cottage industry of profiles of people who would be manifestly and gravely harmed by a Trump presidency. There's no daily story about the 20-year-old who came here illegally when she was 2 and doesn't speak the language of the country she'd be deported to. There's no sympathetic profile of the Muslims whose mosque has been vandalized more often with Trump shouting about extreme vetting. And so on.

This downplays racism because it speaks only to the cover story that racism uses to encode its discrimination, without acknowledging that nominally unracist policies actually create downstream effects which are felt disproportionately among minorities.
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [81 favorites]


Problems with the 538 model-

Due to the weighting it places on the recency of polls, the correlations it's drawing between state polls and theoretical results in other states, and the weighting of polls by pollster bias and quality there is a good deal of guesswork in 538s model and it's not sure that there is really a lot of benefit in creating such a swingy model.

In contrast PEC has a slow moving model and from Sam Wang's perspective the campaign has been remarkably static with Clinton never really relinquishing a small but noticeable lead.

Obviously the 538 model has advantages in that it's sensitive to rapid changes in polling but it's also really really noisy. It's also really good for page-clicks because even minimal changes in polling will often result in significant shifts.

PEC's model on the other is incredibly boring and unlikely to get nearly as many page clicks because it's more or less static. 2 guesses as to what the owners of 538 would prefer.
posted by vuron at 12:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Denver Post's Endorsement: Elect Hillary Clinton for president : Voters tempted to back Johnson should take another look at Clinton and see if they can stomach a vote for her to save the country from Trump.

We’ve been disappointed by some of Clinton’s past actions. We hope that as president she resists the progressive currents she had to navigate in her primary with Sen. Bernie Sanders and that she tacks back to the centrist positions of her husband’s presidency.

But a President Hillary Clinton on her worst day would be so superior to a President Donald Trump on any day that we marvel this race was ever competitive.

We urge voters to dump Trump and choose the clearly qualified candidate in this race: Hillary Clinton
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think Nate Silver also used up a lot of his stockpile of goodwill during the primaries where he was all punditry, no models and saying Trump had no chance.
posted by ckape at 12:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


New[?] Clinton ad "Silo" (on nuclear weapons) [link to youtube]
posted by melissasaurus at 12:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


You know, I've heard a fair amount of criticsm of 538's prognostications in here over the last few weeks and I'm wondering if anyone would care to elaborate.

Really? It's my impression that this has been run into the ground repeatedly and might be a good candidate for the "already exhaustively litigated" list of topics.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think the press really needs to ask Trump to explain

I'm afraid I see a flaw in your plan.
posted by Gelatin at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


@AaronBlake: BREAKING: U.S. officially accuses Russia of conducting hacking campaign to influence 2016 elections
posted by zombieflanders at 12:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


I guess what I'm saying is I don't get why people are so down on 538 this cycle.

I think 538 fell victim in the primaries to what I would call the binary prediction fallacy, combined with their mistake to not model the primaries in a mathematical way.

The binary prediction fallacy goes like this:
1. Prediction markets peg some outcome at 85% likely
2. The 15% outcome happens instead
3. Pundits declare prediction markets dead because they were obviously wrong

The problem is, unlikely things happen all the time. If I roll a 20-sided die, you would correctly state that it is only 5% likely to come up 20. You are in no sense "wrong" if the 20 actually comes up. Prediction markets are fairly well-calibrated in this regard -- out of 100 markets, 15 that are rated at 85% will end up "missing". Pundits are unable to comprehend this and will point to any miss where the market was above ~75% as a total blunder, even though the very definition of a 75% predictor is that it is "wrong" 1 in 4 times.

The fallacy is to "round up" all those 75-90% estimations to 100% and then declare the 10-25% outcomes, which were predicted (in aggregate), to be "misses".

Back to the primaries, I think Nate Silver correctly noticed that if you watched the 2012 GOP primary, you would have been incorrect to declare Michelle Bachmann a likely winner, followed by Hermain Cain a likely winner, followed by Rick Santorum a likely winner, followed by Rick Perry a likely winner, followed by Newt Gingrich a likely winner. At the start of the 2016 primary, Donald Trump appeared to be another batshit crazy flash-in-the-pan, and 2012 had a ton of batshit crazy flash-in-the-pan candidates that went nowhere. Silver applied good Bayesian logic and said, well, this guy is batshit crazy, we should expect him to be a flash-in-the-pan and that support would consolidate elsewhere.

Had Silver built a model that tried to explain the 2012 primary, I think he would have gotten farther. The main feature of the 2012 primary was a lot of batshit crazies and a few solid establishment choices. The main feature of the 2016 primary was a few batshit crazies and a wide array of solid establishment choices. This led to a failure to coalesce that ultimately doomed every establishment candidate.

So Silver, working without a model, made a fairly reasonable prediction - a Trump win is very unlikely because no candidate like him has ever gotten particularly far in a modern primary. 5% seems like good odds. He made that prediction because he lacked a model, and then got punished for it because of the binary prediction fallacy. 1 in 20 events really are quite frequent and I think we could easily go another 19 primaries without seeing someone as nuts as Trump be nominated.
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I was *so goddamn worried* before the first debate. This time I'm a bit worried about the fact that I'm not worried at all.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


New[?] Clinton ad "Silo" (on nuclear weapons) [link to youtube]

The irony of the Goldwater callback is that, if anything, it understates the risk. Goldwater was an extreme conservative, but he had a long record of public service and wasn't a pathological narcissist with an ego made of egg shells.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm still a little worried that HRC might not sleep well or something and make an unforced error or the slip of a tongue. Even Usain Bolt might trip on his shoelaces.
posted by stolyarova at 12:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?

To put this in perspective, on average that's how much Trump lost by dinner time, January 1st, 1995.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


It's an interesting list, since it's primarily the smaller rural markets in the swing states - including everywhere in FL except Miami, Orlando/Daytona and Tampa; everywhere in IA except Des Moines; everywhere in OH except Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus, everywhere in NC except Charlotte and Raleigh.

I'm not sure what this means - is the campaign now advertising in only the major cities, which have more expensive media time and less receptive voters? A lot of the Trump campaign is about turning out the base; from this perspective, this makes no sense.

Since that's all basically Clinton turf, they might be planning a last-ditch blitz of horrific negative advertising to try to depress Democratic turnout.

But since Trump is campaigning in bright-blue New Jersey, Ford knows what they're really up to.
posted by Gelatin at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


At the start of the 2016 primary, Donald Trump appeared to be another batshit crazy flash-in-the-pan, and 2012 had a ton of batshit crazy flash-in-the-pan candidates that went nowhere.

The crazy thing is that it isn't like Trump didn't self-immolate like Herman Cain or Michelle Bachmann did. He absolutely repeatedly and dramatically blew himself up in a way that should have been completely disqualifying.

...and then he went up in the polls.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


oh shit I really don't want another cold war, guys :(
posted by stolyarova at 12:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's Razor would tell us that Trump told his people "People love me in ' Jersey. We should run more ads there."
posted by drezdn at 12:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Time: Someone Placed a Record-Breaking Bet That Hillary Clinton Will Win the Election
British bookmaker William Hill announced on Friday that the bet had been made for €550,000 [$615,862]. A 46-year-old female client placed the amount on Clinton becoming President at odds of 4/11, or a 73% chance of success, in the hope of making a profit of around $224,000.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?

On Twitter, they're bragging about adding an extra million in ad spending, which is like nothing in terms of a national election. Sad!

The Trump Campaign going bankrupt before election day would bring a degree of schadenfreude so profound that I think I might fracture my jaw from grinning.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


I really want to see that Republican Hindu Jersey thing.
posted by zutalors! at 12:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was a student at Washington University during the 2008 Vice Presidential debate between Joe Biden and Sarah Palin, and I ended up getting a ticket to watch from inside the debate hall. I thought that that was the craziest debate Wash U would ever host; clearly I was wrong.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


oh shit I really don't want another cold war, guys :(

Last week when I heard the news report about what happened with Syrian talks falling and what Russia is pulling on the ground right now my thought was 'well Cold War 2.0, it's here now'. Honestly thinking it's been here for a while it's just been one of those frog in boiling water things. It's taken a while to take notice and add all the things together.
posted by Jalliah at 12:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump Campaign going bankrupt before election day

We'll run this thing like a business!
posted by cmfletcher at 12:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


In 2000, there was also a racist governor gung-ho for the candidate (Jeb!), as well as two high-powered lawyers who were longtime proponents of racist voter suppression.
Jeb confuses the hell out of me. The man is literally married to a Mexican-American woman and speaks fluent Spanish but still says blindingly racist stuff about that community and others. Like, I get implicit bias--even the most well-intentioned of allies can fall prey to it. But the dude is just way beyond that.
posted by xyzzy at 12:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


WaPo: U.S. government officially accuses Russia of hacking campaign to influence elections

Official statement from DHS and ODNI
posted by steveminutillo at 12:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


As I've mentioned before, my husband is ethnically Russian and is a first-generation Belarussian immigrant with a very Russian name (my last name is consequently Russian as well).

The potential consequences of Cold War 2.0 for us are terrifying to contemplate.
posted by stolyarova at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's an interesting list, since it's primarily the smaller rural markets in the swing states - including everywhere in FL except Miami, Orlando/Daytona and Tampa; everywhere in IA except Des Moines; everywhere in OH except Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus, everywhere in NC except Charlotte and Raleigh.

I'm not sure what this means - is the campaign now advertising in only the major cities, which have more expensive media time and less receptive voters? A lot of the Trump campaign is about turning out the base; from this perspective, this makes no sense. Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?

At least in NC, this is not accurate. Two of those three markets are strong Dem territory. Just doing a Quick Google on the NC cities here: these are the third, tenth, and eighth biggest cities in the state (well, excluding tiny New Bern which is just in the same media market as Greenville). Guilford County (home of Greensboro) went for Obama 59/41 and 58/41, and Pitt County (home of Greenville) went for Obama 54/46 and 53/46 - they are distinctly NOT Trump territory. It's sort of baffling that they were bothering to spend much money in those counties in the first place - as we saw in 2012, it's not necessary to win votes in those cities in order to win NC (or, for that matter, to win votes in Charlotte or Raleigh, both of which are also Dem territory).

However, New Hanover County (home of Wilmington) went for McCain 49/51 and Romney 47/52. If the Trump campaign thinks they can't win Wilmington, that is a very bad sign for them in NC. (Of course, they're claiming that those cities are just SO STRONG that they don't NEED to spend money there, but that is certainly not true of the first two cities.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cold War 2.0, you say?
posted by Devonian at 1:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't believe how much HRC is having to deal with to get elected.
posted by zutalors! at 1:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [52 favorites]


DHS is providing several services to state and local election officials to assist in their cybersecurity. These services include cyber “hygiene” scans of Internet-facing systems, risk and vulnerability assessments, information sharing about cyber incidents, and best practices for securing voter registration databases and addressing potential cyber threats. DHS has convened an Election Infrastructure Cybersecurity Working Group with experts across all levels of government to raise awareness of cybersecurity risks potentially affecting election infrastructure and the elections process.
Say "cyber" one more time...
posted by xyzzy at 1:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


His current moves such as pulling advertising and campaigning in completely safe Hilary states seems like he's giving up and conserving as much campaign cash as possible.

That is what being tired of winning looks like.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Someone call Barron, and then call Hannity.
posted by drezdn at 1:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


You guys I finally got a political YouGov survey! You don't know how many surveys about shoes, gadgets, and TV I've had to endure waiting to finally get surveyed on my political opinions.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I with that the Democrats would do more campaigning against the do-nothing obstructionist Republican Congress. In addition to letting a Supreme Court seat sit vacant for eight months and counting, the Republicans in Congress haven't don't anything to address the Zika virus that's now in the United States. I was waiting in the security line at an airport recently and there was a sign that told pregnant women not to let mosquitoes bite them. OK, problem solved.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


With reference to hacking, a small reminder
posted by vbfg at 1:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Preamble: omigod I can hardly believe my 1980s-1990s experience as an American kid raised by evangelical extremists IS STILL APPLICABLE. It is so freaking weird, and sad, to see what I thought may have been partly a youthful overreaction in thinking "holy crap these people are going to fuck up this country" twenty years ago, still be true.

Can someone shed some light on Pence stopping himself from saying he was also raised Catholic? He was rephrasing his life story on the fly with his family saying grace and moved onto finding Jesus in his freshman year. It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.

        Evangelicals (his base) don't tend to like us THOSE PAPISTS much. And frankly I think Catholics find it odd that someone raised Catholic would cross over to Evangelical...it feels odd and culture-clashy somehow.

Yep. Exactly it. In our evangelical churches (we went to three different churches, our main one being a Foursquare denomination), we were openly taught to despise the idolators and witch-lovers (translation: Mary) that went by the mendacious name of "Catholics". Mendacious because it made them seem Christian when anyone who worshipped a woman (gasp! heart palpitations!) could of course only be an unbelieving heretic trying to lead Good Christians (ie. evangelicals) astray. Friendly reminder, I got out of that wack as soon as I could, mmkay. But yes indeed, it is a pretty huge and overt thing inside evangelical circles. Mormons get an even worse rap. You learn not to ask about other religions because to even call them a "religion" would get you whupped. (right, i need a beer before continuing...)

I also think there's a lot of classism in there, too. Or there was in the beginning. I remember (granted I was ~12) a lot of sentiment from conservatives of the time seemed to feel like Clinton was transgressing something by having the nerve to be a poor kid from rural Arkansas with a single* mom who went to Georgetown, became a Rhodes Scholar, graduated from Yale Law, and decided to go into politics. That simply was not done. Even among (southern) Democrats, elite educations and political careers were for rich people, ideally people from one of a few socially dominant families.

Similarly, there's a lot of sexism. Not only has Hillary always been tarred with it, but in my experience conservatives scorned Bill, as well, for marrying an educated career-woman and having an egalitarian marriage. This is something else that simply Was Not Done.

Yes, yes, and another resounding yes. 1996 Clinton v. Dole was the first presidential election I voted in, and was just getting out of our evangelical circles (still in the US) at the time. Evangelicals raise girls pretty horrifically, really. None of us in our church were supposed to go to university; the only "job" we were meant to hold was either as Sunday school teachers or wives/mothers. I will say this for that milieu: it gave me a profound appreciation for motherhood as an actual job. Unfortunately, when marriage and babies is the only thing everyone says you're good for, well, that's depressing. Imagine, guys, being told that you're nothing more than your sperm and staying home with kids all day! Oh yeah, it's valued as a real job, but it's the only one you can have and you depend entirely on your wife's income, otherwise you're a little whore, you penis-having man, you.

So yes, evangelicals hated the Clintons with the fury of a freezing blizzard. Not a hot hatred, but a rigid, seething, silent one. It's what I see in a lot of the anti-Hillary rhetoric going around.

And holy cow yes do I ever see evangelicals in Trump's support. There's an Occam's razor reason why, y'all: keep in mind that evangelicals want the apocalypse so Jesus can come down to earth and save their sorry sexist racist asses. Anything that furthers the apocalypse is good. What is Trump if not a walking (bumbling), talking (slobbering) apocalpyse? HTH, HAND, please vote Hillary.
posted by fraula at 1:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [49 favorites]


Hillary Clinton: the candidate Putin isn't willing to commit crimes to get into office.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I kind of wonder whether or not Republicans will try to not fill Scalia's vacancy in the next four years of Clinton wins.
posted by drezdn at 1:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure what this means - is the campaign now advertising in only the major cities, which have more expensive media time and less receptive voters? A lot of the Trump campaign is about turning out the base; from this perspective, this makes no sense. Also, how broke are they that they are cancelling ads in over 25 Trump-friendly markets in swing states to save less than two measly million?

Given everything we know about Trump and what everyone else knows about the way Trump does business, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this was a matter of smaller markets - less able to deal with being stiffed on the bill - demanding money down or net30 terms where other markets offered more time to pay, or perhaps a guarantee from Trump or the RNC in addition to the Trump campaign, which any advertiser with brains knows is going to have the funding source dry up in November.
posted by phearlez at 1:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I kind of wonder whether or not Republicans will try to not fill Scalia's vacancy in the next four years of Clinton wins.

Assuming the Democrats win Congress, it doesn't matter what the Republicans will try to do.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


So now NBC has released audio of Trump saying some terrible Trump-like things in 2005.
posted by drezdn at 1:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Assuming the Democrats win Congress, it doesn't matter what the Republicans will try to do.

They can always filibuster; in fact I'm certain that they will.

Then the democrats will go nuclear and the filibuster will die.

Yay!
posted by leotrotsky at 1:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Another expose from David Farenthold: Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005

Man, he sure likes "playing a character" from The Apprentice a lot, especially when there aren't any cameras around.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [53 favorites]


Guys, GUYS. We live in a world where we get red flagged WaPo BREAKING popups for articles titled "Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005."
posted by xyzzy at 1:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


You know, I've heard a fair amount of criticsm of 538's prognostications in here over the last few weeks and I'm wondering if anyone would care to elaborate. My position has been that while I think their punditry sometimes falls victim to the need to generate a new article about the election every few hours, their actual models are fairly predictive.

Which is a pretty fair summary. Nate Silver lost a lot of respect with a foray by one of his staff into Global Warming Denialism on 538 and his punditry that isn't statistical analysis never really got it back.
posted by Francis at 1:15 PM on October 7, 2016


“I moved on her and I failed. I’ll admit it,” Trump is heard saying. It was unclear when the events he was describing took place. The tape was recorded several months after he married his third wife, Melania.

“Whoa,” another voice said.

“I did try and f--- her. She was married,” Trump says.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Say "cyber" one more time...

Okay, I will put up with a lot for the sake of a good meme, but you cannot just use an image of Jules in the diner to riff on a line from a whole different scene and locale long after Brett has been shot in the face. This Will Not Stand.
posted by phearlez at 1:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


> NBC has released audio of Trump saying some terrible Trump-like things in 2005

Clearly FAKE: "I admit I failed" is not Trump-like.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I kind of wonder what Trump would have to say/do to lose his Evangelical voters... We just might find out!
posted by drezdn at 1:18 PM on October 7, 2016


Trump Taj Mahal appears to have just gone bankrupt! :D
posted by Francis at 1:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


This Will Not Stand.

...says the guy using a Lebowski line to complain about a Pulp Fiction meme.
posted by peeedro at 1:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump talking about sexually assaulting a woman only 9 months after marrying his third wife.

I'm sure if Obama had done that, he wouldn't have lost any votes. Just boys being boys.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


Assuming the Democrats win Congress, it doesn't matter what the Republicans will try to do.

Taking the Senate is possible, but the Democrats probably won't take the House for a long time. Even if the Democrats take the Senate this year, the Republicans will probably take it back in 2018.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


yes kirkiracha but I appreciate the enthusiasm r317
posted by zutalors! at 1:22 PM on October 7, 2016


Clearly FAKE: "I admit I failed" is not Trump-like.

He's not sorry, he's "sorry people were offended," ie "sorry people are being so whiny about it"
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Taking the Senate is possible, but the Democrats probably won't take the House for a long time. Even if the Democrats take the Senate this year, the Republicans will probably take it back in 2018.

But you don't need the advice and consent of the House to get a USSC justice seated.

If Ginsberg and Souter jump after the election, that's an opportunity for 3 justices in the first 2 years. I'd personally be happy if they were all women, so that they'd live longer.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump Taj Mahal appears to have just gone bankrupt!

article dated today, says casino is closing for good on September 9th. humph. i have found http://occupydemocrats.com/ to be a rather click-baity, breathless-headliney, unreliable source in the past. this does not help.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jesus that video is disgusting. And I'm sure it's not that uncommon but it's just so awful to watch that woman be demeaned, even later to her face asked to choose "who she'd go on a date with" and have to laugh it off gracefully. How horrible.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Charlie Pierce: Trump Will Never Put Himself in Your Shoes. Period. Even if you were wrongfully convicted and exonerated by DNA evidence.
"They admitted they were guilty," Trump said this week in a statement to CNN's Miguel Marquez. "The police doing the original investigation say they were guilty. The fact that that case was settled with so much evidence against them is outrageous. And the woman, so badly injured, will never be the same." Since Trump obviously still believes that the Central Park 5 are guilty, it cannot be said he is lying or even misleading. But he is undoubtedly holding steadfast to an opinion in the face of DNA evidence to the contrary and the fact that the Central Park 5 have been exonerated by the legal system.
Do I have to point out how many ways this disqualifies Donald Trump from the position of decent human being, let alone from the position of president of the United States? There's the pure racism of the original ad. There's the pure racism of his still holding to the opinions expressed in the ad in the face of overwhelming scientific and empirical evidence. There's the know-nothing huffing at the legitimacy of the science used to exonerate the five men, which is reminiscent of the way he waves off the science of climate change and anything else that disturbs the fragile intellectual infrastructure of a career grifter.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Is it too late for Clinton to literally just release that audio as an ad?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump campaign responds to the hot mic recording; makes it worse.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


but a check of other news sites does support the occupydemocrats.com article and the date would appear to have been a typo.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2016


I was going to get judgy about this latest October Surprise getting news dumped on a Friday afternoon, but then I remembered the next debate is on Sunday. Well done, Fahrenthold. Well done. This is my favorite part:
The tape appears at a time when Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, has sought to make a campaign issue out of his opponent’s marriage. Trump has criticized former President Bill Clinton for his past infidelity, and criticized opponent Hillary Clinton as her husband’s “enabler.”

“Hillary Clinton was married to the single greatest abuser of women in the history of politics,” Trump told the New York Times in a recent interview. “Hillary was an enabler, and she attacked the women who Bill Clinton mistreated afterward. I think it’s a serious problem for them, and it’s something that I’m considering talking about more in the near future.”

Trump carried on a very public affair with Marla Maples — his eventual second wife — while still married to first wife Ivana Trump.

posted by yasaman at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Guys, we might get rid of Trump *AND* Billy Bush in one day. I feel so blessed.
posted by acidic at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


That video! He talks about sexually assaulting women and how you can get away with it if you're a star. "Just grab them in the pussy". My god.
posted by dis_integration at 1:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


Just want to remind everybody that Paul Ryan is supposed to be campaigning with him tomorrow. Any bets on something that just magically happens to pop up at the last minute that keeps Ryan away?
posted by zombieflanders at 1:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Also, and this pales compares to the blatant sexual harassment and belittlement, but Trump is such a loser. His play to seduce a married woman was to take her to a furniture store.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


You know, I don't know what I hope for on Sunday. On the one hand, I hope he eats shit in a spectacular fashion. On the other hand, he's whipped up a crowd of people into believing crazy things, and this is just a guess here, but I'd think one result of a narcissist failing so badly is that the crazy is going to come on stronger in an attempt to incite an even more mob-like, slavish following. Tell people they should resort to second amendment methods? If that makes some people love you, have at it. You, lady, who have been told in various ways that your views are obnoxious or racist or crazy, DJT believes in you so much he sez get your gun. All you have to do is love him and praise his name.

I kind of really want there to be a Trump TV in the works. I want DJT to feel like he has a nice soft cushion on which to land. I want him to lose interest in the race. I want him to stop caring.

I mean Trump TV will probably be some like Neo Nazi network, but the dude will embarrass most thinking people into staying away.
posted by angrycat at 1:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I kind of wonder whether or not Republicans will try to not fill Scalia's vacancy in the next four years of Clinton wins.

If it were up to Mitch McConnell, I have no doubt he would refuse to confirm any SCOTUS justice in Clinton's first twrm, hoping for 2020. That's why the Senate races are so important, and why a slim majority of Democrats shouldn't concern themselves with further Republican attempts to obstruct. Eliminate the filibuster if need be, and again, point to Republican bad faith loud and clear.
posted by Gelatin at 1:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


bngbng: "Nerds For Her" unites fandoms behind Hillary Clinton
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


zombieflanders: If I was Ryan I'd be out in the dead of night myself to let the air out of all the tires in my motorcade or whatever. And slash the spares. Anything for an excuse.
posted by seyirci at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Politico Trump campaign cancels ad buy, promises future expansion
After the initial cancellation, Trump did begin to purchase new airtime, including buying ads in Wisconsin’s Milwaukee and Madison markets for the first time. That initial buy, for next week, was for just over $70,000. He also bulked up his buy in Columbus, Ohio.

Miller did not respond to a request to describe all the places where they were increasing their ad buys.

The ad cancellations cover the period that begins next Tuesday, and mostly represent smaller markets in the various states.

In Iowa, for instance, there is no reduction yet in the Des Moines market, the state’s largest, or any cuts in Columbus, Cincinnati or Cleveland in Ohio.

Instead, Trump appears to be paring backing in more rural regions, such as the Wilkes Barre and Erie markets in Pennsylvania while maintaining his buys in places like Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
I don't know why he would be canceling any ads in NC-- it's a very tight race. If Trump himself is making these decisions than it sounds like he wants to advertise in places where he had successful rallies.

I realize his ad buys is now boring news in light of the bankruptcy and the pussy-snatching. So be it.

His horrible past just keeps rearing its ugly head-- he should never have run for president because there is a bottomless well of dirt-- to use a mixed metaphor.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Assuming the Democrats win Congress, it doesn't matter what the Republicans will try to do.

That is a massive assumption at this point. Democratic Senate candidates are trailing Hilary badly across the board. Ayotte is inexplicably durable. McGinty is a coin flip, as is Ross. Evan Bayh is down to +1 from double digits, where Trump is leading Indiana by 11. Mastro hasn't led a poll in weeks. Strickland and Murphy are deader than dead. Kilpatrick and Judge didn't even bother to show up. The most likely scenario at this point is the Democrats win 3 or 4 competitive races, out of 11 possible pickups and 8 reasonably competitive races. 4 seats gets them to 49, and there's a decent chance that they only win the two safe seats in Wisconsin and Illinois.

That an absolutely fucking miserable showing from Chuck Schumer's handed picked slate of fracking lobbyists and Daddy's boy Republicans when the opponent is Donald Trump at the top of the ticket.

And if the Republicans hold the Senate, jut write off the entire Hilary agenda including a Supreme Court seat, because none of it will happen.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


in that hot mic video, Trump sounds like a straight up rapist
posted by defenestration at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [52 favorites]


holy crap i forgot they still haven't approved obama's nominee.

In late August the Democrats in Congress were supposedly going to fight, but I don't think that actually happened.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:43 PM on October 7, 2016


Do we have to sit through another month of this shit? Can we just have the election now?
posted by theodolite at 1:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


in that hot mic video, Trump sounds like a straight up rapist

The "lewd" framing really irresponsibly undersells that he is at best admitting to and endorsing sexual assault. He should be in jail and/or required to tell his neighbors about the list he's on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


Wait a second. The hot mic video is disgusting of course, but the Fahrenthold article also talks about Trump's Days of Our Lives appearance. Here's the clip:
In a tape of that cameo posted online, Zucker’s character asks Trump — playing himself — for a job at his business, and tells him suggestively, “I think you’ll find I’m a very willing employee. Working under you, I think, could be mutually beneficial.”
He turns her down, and it's you know, a soap opera, but even in fiction he's got women throwing themselves at him in exchange for jobs.
posted by zachlipton at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2016


I'm sure I remember some scene in some movie where they did this thing they called "vetting the candidate" and they found out something about that person's past and everyone freaked the fuck out and said "fuck no!" with really assertive voices and then that thing didn't happen.
posted by vbfg at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump Taj Mahal appears to have just gone bankrupt!

In case you didn't read this article posted by Francis Donald no longer has a share in the Taj Mahal-- he had to sell out his 10% ownership during the first bankruptcy so my guess is that the Trump campaign will just come out with a comment that what happened to the Taj was not DJT's fault as he had severed his ties years ago.

"holy crap i forgot they still haven't approved obama's nominee."

I take it you don't bother with twitter or you don't follow Obama because Obama sends out a daily tweet reminding me/us that the Senate is not doing their job.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


If this doesn't damage him badly, with evangelicals and women at least

Trump doesn't have much more to lose in the women's vote. As for the evangelicals, they've stuck with him this far. This foulness might prove a bridge too far for some, but I predict they'll stand by him.
posted by Gelatin at 1:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump email asks Floridians to 'Stop Hillary' while Hurricane Matthew damages state
As Hurricane Matthew’s winds arrived on Florida’s coastline Friday, Donald Trump’s presidential campaign blew into Floridians’ email boxes to ask them a 30-question “Stop Hillary Survey” to defeat his Democratic rival.

“Friend, I’ve been reading your advice and listening to your concerns,” the email begins. “Between now and Election Day, we have one shared goal: Stop Hillary Clinton.”

The email, which can lead respondents to a contribution page for Trump, arrived in the midst of a two-day bipartisan round of finger-pointing where Republicans and Democrats have bashed the other for opportunistically stumping while Floridians are grappling with the threat of the monster storm.
Maybe this isn't the best time to ask Floridians to donate to the Trump campaign? I have a sneaking suspicion that if Hillary does sent out an email to registered Floridian voters it will be to say she is praying for them and here is a good place to donate food and money for their neighbors if they can afford it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


If this doesn't damage him badly, with evangelicals and women at least

Trump doesn't have much more to lose in the women's vote. As for the evangelicals, they've stuck with him this far. This foulness might prove a bridge too far for some, but I predict they'll stand by him.

The evangelicals will just say this was before he had really committed his heart to the Lord or something.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


It demonstrates a thorough contempt for women. If anything, this will help him among Evangelicals.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


@HillaryClinton - This is horrific. We cannot allow this man to become president.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [47 favorites]


Trump doesn't have much more to lose in the women's vote. As for the evangelicals, they've stuck with him this far. This foulness might prove a bridge too far for some, but I predict they'll stand by him.

They've convinced themselves of the fiction that he's born again now, so an 11-year-old tape won't change anything. Also, he has a penis and still isn't a Clinton, so...yeah.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


@HillaryClinton - This is horrific. We cannot allow this man to become president.

Good response. Would have been better if it were signed -h.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


> "I was *so goddamn worried* before the first debate. This time I'm a bit worried about the fact that I'm not worried at all."

That's OK. I'm still worried enough for both of us.
posted by kyrademon at 1:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Also, I hope that little fucker Billy Bush gets shit canned and rode out of the entertainment industry on a rail.
posted by Talez at 1:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


If there was audio of Hillary Clinton telling some friend of hers "See that guy? I could punch him in the dick right now if I felt like it. I can do anything I want. I'm the goddamn Secretary of State" I would like her even more tbh
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [51 favorites]


@chrislhayes: Just having a segment meeting w producers *about the tape* feels like creating a hostile work environment.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [68 favorites]


If you go to Trump.com and read the Donald Trump Biography, this shows up:
In 2011, after failed attempts by both Senator McCain and Hillary Clinton, Mr. Trump single handedly forced President Obama to release his birth certificate, which was lauded by large segments of the political community. In 2012, Mr. Trump was voted "Statesman of the Year" by the Sarasota Republican Party.
No matter what really happened, he will always be the Hero of his own story. I wonder what the entry will say once he loses his Presidential bid? I don't see anything written past 2014 which is when he bought a golf course in Ireland.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


What's even more disturbing is in 2005 Billy Bush had a seven year old daughter.

Let that sink in.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


@ryanbeckwith Mitt Romney got in trouble for disparaging 47 percent of Americans. Women make up 51 percent of the U.S. population.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]


And Billy Bush has deleted his Twitter account. Before the story even broke. He knew it was coming.
posted by Talez at 2:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


What's even more disturbing is in 2005 Billy Bush had a seven year old daughter.

Well, that means she's 18 now, and can vote.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [45 favorites]


On the one hand, I'm in awe of Owen Ellickson's stamina and how he's stayed on top of every twist and turn.

On the other hand, I have a fearful vision of him falling over dead like John Henry on Nov. 9th.
posted by whuppy at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Breaking footage of Billy Bush leaving Twitter
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


There's been a lot of Surely Thises, but this is my personal Surely This in that I'm now confident there's nothing he could do to come back and win this now. The 10% more he needs on top of Trumpsters to become president is largely college-educated women and bragging about committing sexual assault just seals that he's not going to get enough that demo to win.
posted by chris24 at 2:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


Billy Bush's Facebook is lighting up.
posted by Talez at 2:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Breaking footage of Billy Bush leaving Twitter

His Twitter profile may be gone ("Delete your account!"), but his Facebook page is getting hammered.
posted by Surely This at 2:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Surely, this... must rank in the top 100 most awful things done by a member of the Bush family.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


I literally had no idea that Dubya is Billy Bush's cousin. What is this world?
posted by xyzzy at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


And Billy Bush has deleted his Twitter account. Before the story even broke. He knew it was coming.

Giving story subjects an opportunity to respond is just part of what journalism does (though with instant online publishing I can imagine the classic "call 10 minutes before publication" trope is more common than ever now).

It is curious that the story includes mention that NBC/U declined to comment, that they couldn't get in touch with Zucker's publicist, and Trump's response... but nothing one way or another about Bush.
posted by phearlez at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2016


There's been a lot of Surely Thises, but this is my personal Surely This in that I'm now confident there's nothing he could do to come back and win this now.

Trump couldn't but Trumpists could. As I am less worried about a genuine victory for him, I am more worried about voter intimidation at the polls. Even just the memes about showing up in red shirts, to say nothing of his personal calls for poll watching, may be enough to convince people to stay home. I can hardly blame them if they do, if they know they can't afford to go to the hospital over this, if they remember what happened to their grandparents when ... well, you see.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


It looks like the WaPo press pooler for Pence was pulled out the second the tape story dropped.
posted by Talez at 2:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


For comparison, while this was breaking today, Obama was busy signing the Sexual Assault Survivors' bill of rights.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [105 favorites]


Pence when asked for comment: "He never said those things!"
posted by Talez at 2:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


This is going to be the main news story from now until the debate. I wonder if there will be a question about his "woman problem" at the debate? I mean I doubt that there will be anything as pointed as "What about that new video, eh?" but maybe something like "You both have trouble with voters of the opposite sex, is there anything you can do at this point to change the mind of someone who has made up their mind?"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


you really have to wonder if the whole 2016 election nightmare isn't just the result of somebody back in the mid-00's making a very poorly-worded wish on a monkey's paw about destroying the careers of everybody in the Bush family
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [87 favorites]


Wikileaks chose this moment to release another nothing-burger leak.
posted by codacorolla at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Please don't provide fake quotations for people without the [Fake] tags. And please use the [Real] tag if it's particularly egregious.
posted by miguelcervantes at 2:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


In Canada, we have our own Billy Bush in the form of entertainment news presenter Ben Mulroney, son of former PM (and occasional Reagan-Thatcher third wheel) Brian Mulroney.

I almost feel sorry for him. What with having been thoroughly upstaged in the son-of-PM game by Justin Trudeau, and now seeing his obvious role model disgraced, this hasn't been the best year for the guy.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wikileaks chose this moment to release another nothing-burger leak.

you mean a nothing-burrito

the joke is that one of the leaked emails is about a Chipotle order [real]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm nauseous from just reading this article. Pretty sure the video would have me worshipping porcelain.

I hope, surely this. And yet I also hope that David Fahrenthold has some investigative reporting on the tax returns on the burner, because I'm looking forward to what he can unearth.
posted by Dashy at 2:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


DynamiteToast: @HillaryClinton - This is horrific. We cannot allow this man to become president.
David Fahrenthold @Fahrenthold
"I just start kissing them..Just kiss. I don’t even wait,' Trump said. “And when you’re a star they let you do it." http://wpo.st/1xm32
And that's not the worst quote in the article.

@chrislhayes: Just having a segment meeting w producers *about the tape* feels like creating a hostile work environment.

I would hate to be in that discussion, as I'd imagine there's a really uncomfortable debate about what's safe to air, what you air with bleeps, and what you simply refer to with veiled hints.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm calling for a total and complete shutdown of Donald Trump interacting with women until we can figure out what is going on
posted by Talez at 2:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [77 favorites]


Wonder how this affects the Utah LDS vote . . . .

If they haven't left the church over this same sort of scandal, it seems unlikely they'd switch to a pro-choice candidate over it.

Utah is approximately 100% red. I don't see it going blue any time soon.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:28 PM on October 7, 2016


The "like a bitch" construction is highly ambiguous because Donald Trump doesn't know how dogs work [real: numerous tweets include the phrase "fired like a dog" and other malcaninisms]
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


“I’ve gotta use some tic tacs, just in case I start kissing her,”

I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.
posted by peeedro at 2:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [103 favorites]


Regarding the supreme court vacancy, I'm really curious for any legal/technical take on this. Is there any recourse for the president in this case? Or even for the supreme court itself? Or can the senate just decide to never again approve a supreme court nominee, and eventually the supreme court would die off?
posted by madmethods at 2:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


For comparison, while this was breaking today, Obama was busy signing the Sexual Assault Survivors' bill of rights.

Which Paul Ryan also tweeted about signing. Sounds like that could embarrass his campaign appearance with Trump on Saturday.

Oh, who are we kidding? IOKIYAR!
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tic Tacs - Strong enough for even Donald Trump's mouth.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

They could just follow Skittles' lead and say: Tic Tacs are mints. Women are people.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [52 favorites]


Billy Bush is the #1 trend on twitter right now.

I think everyone is stunned and trying to figure out what to do with this information. Will Hillary's team be making a new ad? Will Paul Ryan withdraw his support? Will Trump show up at the debate?

I noticed that Bill's name showed up in the official statement from the campaign “This was locker room banter, a private conversation that took place many years ago. Bill Clinton has said far worse to me on the golf course - not even close. I apologize if anyone was offended.” so if it does show up at the debate expect to hear lots of stuff about Bill's bad behavior.

@JennaJohnson Dawn Laguens, executive vice president of Planned Parenthood Action Fund: "What Trump described in these tapes amounts to sexual assault."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

I imagine them bursting into a bar and collapsing on a stool next to the Skittles person.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

Skittles and Tic Tacs? The poor candy industry.
posted by Brainy at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


hypothesis: every time Trump has said "like a dog" he was self-editing from "like a bitch," his real favorite all-purpose intensifier
posted by theodolite at 2:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


In other news, Lauren Fox at TPM has been doing some digging on one of the odder little mysteries of this campaign: how Trump has been getting a income-limited New York property tax break. The credit is only available if your AGI is less than 500,000.

The city claimed the credit in later years was a mistake, but the article says that he would not have been able to get the credit any year unless he met the income requirement, as it is verified from your tax return.
TPM came across the problematic tax credit in the course of examining Trump’s use of the tax credit on another property, his penthouse in Trump Tower in recent years. The city had ruled the penthouse was enrolled to get the tax credit by mistake, but a closer examination suggests mistake or not, Trump would have had to meet the state's income requirements to qualify for the credit: taxable income of no more than $500,000 a year.

The upshot is that there is reason to suspect that Trump suffered additional losses sometime after 1995 that he used to drive down his taxable income and ultimately his income tax burden.
posted by zachlipton at 2:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Am I wrong to assume that this is Clinton opposition research leaked to a friendly reporter just in time for the second debate?

And that therefore they probably have a few more haymakers of increasing wtfery waiting in the wings?
posted by schadenfrau at 2:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


At some level, I’m distressed that this is a bigger deal than him being a fraud in everything else and obviously lying about his tax returns.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


At least in NC, this is not accurate. Two of those three markets are strong Dem territory.

Here's the media market map for NC: they're moving out of the west, a chunk of the Piedmont and most of the east. The Greensboro market extends quite a distance into rural counties, but they're somewhat thinly populated. Perhaps Team Trump thinks its vote in those regions is already locked up compared to the Charlotte and Triangle burbs, but who knows?
posted by holgate at 2:32 PM on October 7, 2016


So trippy that "U.S. officially accuses Russia of conducting hacking campaign to influence 2016 elections" is like the 4th or 5th craziest story of the day.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [79 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

One of the little gestures of affection I give my SO is keeping her supplied with Tic Tacs. (It's her fidget food.) Trump just made that gross. Dammit.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


If anybody needs a palate cleanser after that hella gross video: Redditor stays at Trump hotel, makes special request [happy/fun/positive/possibly real]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Bitten right in the ass by himself...like a dog!
posted by snofoam at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm really curious for any legal/technical take on this. Is there any recourse for the president in this case?
The President can appoint a Justice while the Senate isn't in session with something called a recess appointment. Eisenhower did three appointments like that, iirc, including Chief Justice Warren. The nomination is only good for a year, but afaik no Justice nominated in this fashion has ever been kicked off the bench.
posted by xyzzy at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


At some level, I’m distressed that this is a bigger deal than him being a fraud in everything else and obviously lying about his tax returns.

Taxes are boring and sex sells. And lurid sex really sells.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


@ChuckCorra: Maybe @realDonaldTrump can use the mic from the "Billy Bush" interview at the next debate. Seems like it was working pretty well
posted by zombieflanders at 2:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [60 favorites]


Jezebel:
Update: Here’s that audio, interspersed with some clips of Ivanka Trump on her dad’s respectful relationship with women.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

"There are some problems minty fresh breath can't solve. For everything else, there's Tic Tacs."
posted by jackbishop at 2:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


At some level, I’m distressed that this is a bigger deal than him being a fraud in everything else and obviously lying about his tax returns.

Think of it as a super-weird corollary to what happened with Al Capone.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]



Am I wrong to assume that this is Clinton opposition research leaked to a friendly reporter just in time for the second debate?

And that therefore they probably have a few more haymakers of increasing wtfery waiting in the wings?

That's my inclination too. I expect the Clinton campaign has a "Last Month" folder that's just getting cracked open.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


If there's one positive thing to come out of this election, it's that it's enabling women in entertainment, who have traditionally had to stay silent at the stake of being crucified for daring to threaten a man's reputation, to finally stand up about the past and say "these people are misogynistic assholes and I was one of those people who they were assholes to".
posted by Talez at 2:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


@RobertDraper Wow--CNN on @jaketapper just ran the Trump tape uncensored.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [52 favorites]


God.. I had a dream last night that I was with Trump in some kind of "bunker". It was like a night club/board room with tables and chairs circled around a central table or dance floor. Trump was sitting stoically with an attractive woman and there were various people sitting silently. The "bunker" was protecting us from the "media"..I think.

I really need this to be over..
posted by angrybear at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Also -ironically- I find myself less likely to believe that Trump commits sexual assaults precisely because he lies about everything else. This is an inappropriate response, but it is without a doubt my gut reaction. Presumably because I’m a man.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel sorry for the Tic Tac social media person who was halfway out the door to enjoy their weekend and then this showed up and oh jesus leave us out of it.

They can use John Legend's template: Tic Tac would very much like to be excluded from this narrative.
posted by yasaman at 2:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Nell Scovell is on to something: "Don't you think he's embarrassed not because he's rapey and repulsive but because now we all know he failed?"

Trump obviously doesn't care about sounding disgusting (see also his entire life and his campaign's statement about this), but in the 12 minutes a night when he does try to sleep, he's going to be completely wound up about the fact that the world is all talking about the time somebody turned him down, especially after he went so far as to go furniture shopping with her.
posted by zachlipton at 2:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


That's my inclination too. I expect the Clinton campaign has a "Last Month" folder that's just getting cracked open.

I'm trying to decide if Clinton's oppo team is that good or the 16 other Republican's teams were that bad that they haven't been able to dig up any of this shit.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Stop Mr. Trump's Wild Ride, I want to get off.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


On the subject of Trump advertising...

Trump-Inspired Pepe The Frog Billboards To Hit Battleground State
A group of alt-righters have successfully fundraised to put the meme on a series of Pennsylvania billboards
posted by stolyarova at 2:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Where Trump has cancelled [ad] buys next week . . . It's an interesting list, since it's primarily the smaller rural markets in the swing states - including . . . everywhere in OH except Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus . . .

I'm not sure what this means - is the campaign now advertising in only the major cities, which have more expensive media time and less receptive voters?

Here are two maps of Ohio showing where Obama won, and where his Republican opponent won:
Ohio Counties Presidential Election Map 2008
Ohio Counties Presidential Election Map 2012
  • The Dark blue (D) county in the NE, with many blue-ish counties adjacent is Cuyahoga -- metro-Cleveland.
  • The Blue county in the center of the state is Franklin -- metro-Columbus.
  • The Blue county in the SW corner is Hamilton -- metro-Cincinnati.
  • The Blue county just north of that is Montgomery -- metro-Dayton.
  • The Dark blue triangular shaped county in the NW is Lucas -- metro-Toledo.
Cuyahoga, Franklin, and Hamilton counties combined will cast about 30% of all the votes in the 2016 presidential election.

Oddly enough, these are exactly the places where Obama defeated Hillary Clinton in the 2008 Democratic Primary Election. (ref: Center for Politics).

So: Trump has pulled out of advertising in places where he's already doing well, and maintaining it in places where he needs more votes and will get more bang for his buck and which are also the few parts of Ohio that Clinton lost to Obama in 2008.

The Center for Politics article linked above is well worth reading. Note: the map colors used to indicate party are the reverse of the usual convention.
 
posted by Herodios at 2:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was wrong, the WaPo wasn't dropped, Pence's entire press pool was dropped.

Pence is without a press entourage right now.
posted by Talez at 2:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [51 favorites]


I'm trying to decide if Clinton's oppo team is that good or the 16 other Republican's teams were that bad that they haven't been able to dig up any of this shit.

I don't think it's either/or. The crowded republican field knew whoever when at Trump with their oppo file would get all of his file, so nobody did it.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


the only thing that could make today better is if he gets his hands on his tweetin' phone tonight
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [42 favorites]


Wikileaks chose this moment to release another nothing-burger leak.

We did learn that someone on Clinton's staff thinks that Jake Tapper is "such a dick." He's taking it in stride, though.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Honestly though, someone told me earlier today before I read the news that "Trump was caught on tape saying some really horrendous sexist stuff" and I was like "oh, he had a rally today?"
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


Nell Scovell is on to something: "Don't you think he's embarrassed not because he's rapey and repulsive but because now we all know he failed?"

Someone who doesn't believe women are equal human beings cannot contemplate why sexual assault (other than the fabled 'stranger in an alley with a gun'*) is wrong. He doesn't apologize for it because he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it.

*which doesn't apply if you're Kim Kardashian or any woman who has ever had sex before or if you wore too much or too little clothing or ever glanced at a bottle of alcohol or had mental health issues or or or
posted by melissasaurus at 2:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump-Inspired Pepe The Frog Billboards To Hit Battleground State

Incidentally, Fantagraphics and Matt Furie have released an official statement on “The Truth about Pepe The Frog” (tldr: please let us off this wild ride)
posted by Going To Maine at 2:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Politico: "The four reporters in Pence's pool were positioned to watch Pence take a look at the restaurant's main attraction -- a wall of signed cardboard hot dog buns, including one signed recently by Trump -- as he left the restaurant."

Like a dog! - signed, Donald J. Trump [fake]
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump could not have "raped" Ivanka
Yet again, all of Trump's weird statements about his daughter find themselves represented as Freudian slips. His ex-wife is Ivana, his daughter is Ivanka.
posted by xyzzy at 2:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]



So I haven't been paying attention since around lunchtime. It's dinner and I thought 'Hey time to check back in and see what stupid thing Trump has done today"

o.0

wtf?

........

This counts as one of those bigger October Surprise things right?
posted by Jalliah at 2:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


So trippy that "U.S. officially accuses Russia of conducting hacking campaign to influence 2016 elections" is like the 4th or 5th craziest story of the day.

It only gets trippier...

UN Criticism of Trump Draws Russian Complaint (AP) "Russia lodged a formal complaint last month with the United Nations over a top U.N. official's condemnations of Donald Trump and some European politicians, an intervention that underscores the unusual links between the Republican presidential nominee and the Kremlin."

...without this even breaking the top five.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


This counts as one of those bigger October Surprise things right?

Yes. This is an October Surprise.
posted by Talez at 2:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Those Pepe billboards are going to be utterly meaningless to anyone not already in on the joke. So, good job wasting your money on something completely ineffective, assholes. Please continue to throw money at dumb shit like this instead of something meaningful.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


It's October, but I'm not particularly surprised Trump was rapey and disgusting, no.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Less October Surprise, more October Suspicions Confirmed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [112 favorites]


The headlines I'm seeing on all the mainstream news sites are infuriatingly tame, like "Trump caught on Mic making lewd comments about women."
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Those Pepe billboards are going to be utterly meaningless to anyone not already in on the joke. So, good job wasting your money on something completely ineffective, assholes. Please continue to throw money at dumb shit like this instead of something meaningful.

At this point I think a lot of people are in on the Pepe Joke. But I would agree that they also don’t look at Pepe-fication as a positive…
posted by Going To Maine at 2:56 PM on October 7, 2016


@Acosta: Pence praising Trump right now saying he "tells it like it is..."
posted by zombieflanders at 2:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


His play to seduce a married woman was to take her to a furniture store.

Dumbass. Everyone knows if you want to seduce a married women you get her a walk-in closet.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


October This Is My Surprised Face.
posted by kyrademon at 2:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


@RosieGray: .@tperkins tells me "My personal support for Donald Trump has never been based upon shared values"

Evangelicals once again showing their true stripes.
posted by chris24 at 2:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


@Acosta: Pence praising Trump right now saying he "tells it like it is..."

I want to puke.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


@Acosta: Pence praising Trump right now saying he "tells it like it is..."

Did he honest to god say that? Did anyone get to reply to that saying "does this mean you think women need to be grabbed by their genitals by celebrities?"
posted by Talez at 2:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: "Wow, this is a tough business. Nobody has more respect for women than Donald Trump!"
posted by effbot at 3:00 PM on October 7, 2016


@Acosta: Pence praising Trump right now saying he “tells it like it is...”

@RosieGray: .@tperkins tells me “My personal support for Donald Trump has never been based upon shared values”

This campaign is opening up so many great opportunities for heart-to-hearts about the treatment of women in society and what should be considered normally. All of them will be missed.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


effbot: for context, that's from March.
posted by zachlipton at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I am so full of rage I can't even be coherent. Fuck that rapey fuck.
posted by corb at 3:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [96 favorites]


CNN was reaming Trump over the audio. Just absolutely reaming. No both-sides-do-it, no derails onto her email server, just lots of "OMG this is awful" mixed with discussion of whether this kills the campaign and how im-fucking-possible it will be to come back from this given his place in the polls. CNN! Wolf Fucking Blitzer even!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [64 favorites]


The really fucked thing is that he's still going to win 15 or 20 states
posted by theodolite at 3:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


Pretty sure a lot of people are going to write this off as him being braggadocious and say that he doesn't actually sexually assault women. Probably the same people who claim rape culture isn't really a thing.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's October, but I'm not particularly surprised Trump was rapey and disgusting, no.

I'm not surprised that he was/is rapey and disgusting. I will admit that I'm in a bit of shock that there is actually a tape with it laid out so bluntly. Like you can't argue he meant something else, makes me feel sick inside blunt.

It's so beyond gross.
posted by Jalliah at 3:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Someone for the love of god ask Kelly Ayotte if she still endorses him and will vote for him.
posted by Talez at 3:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


Anyone have clarification on the Pence comment? Because what. the. fuck.
posted by yasaman at 3:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ted Cruz again demonstrated his great political timing and genius.
posted by chris24 at 3:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [90 favorites]


I genuinely can't fucking wait for the next time Gov. "Consider Me In 2020" Pence has to make a TV appearance. Go ahead and smug-chuckle your way through this one, asshole.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


Trump campaign responds to the hot mic recording; makes it worse.

"I apologize if anyone was offended" is a classic non-apology apology.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


‏Someone for the love of god ask Kelly Ayotte if she still endorses him and will vote for him.

@KatyTurNBC: "His comments are totally inappropriate and offensive." - Senator Kelly Ayotte [real]

@epic_skyline: @KatyTurNBC "So please don't include them in an attack ad followed by me saying that he is a role model for children," the senator continued [fake]
posted by zombieflanders at 3:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


@SopanDeb: Last 24 hours: Trump still says CP5 guilty. Immigrants being let in to vote. "Grab them by the p---y." "Latinos they like to be called..."

Pedant: it's actually the last 6 hours.
posted by chris24 at 3:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


BTW, Tur retweeted that follow-up herself.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Terrifying prospect:

@JenniferJJacobs
"It's over. He should resign. Allow Pence to move forward," a GOP strategist who has been supportive of Trump tells me and @kevcirilli. (twitter link)

Could Pence replace Trump on the ticket? And if so, fuuuuuuuck.
posted by stolyarova at 3:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


TRUMP SPOX: He was only talking about women who would genuinely pre-consent to being ravaged by a man of his wealth and stature. To call that 'assault' is frankly ludicrous

INTERVIEWER: Why is your abdomen strangely distended

TRUMP SPOX: That's just my soul attempting to flee my body. Pay it no mind
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


In retrospect, it was really a mistake to empty out the Strategic Popcorn Reserve twelve campaign-ending scandals ago.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [54 favorites]


Regarding the supreme court vacancy, I'm really curious for any legal/technical take on this. Is there any recourse for the president in this case? Or even for the supreme court itself?

No.

Or can the senate just decide to never again approve a supreme court nominee, and eventually the supreme court would die off?

Yes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:08 PM on October 7, 2016


I sit here my mouth agape at this video tape.
posted by humanfont at 3:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Y'all, I'm really flattered that you took my request for more exciting news threads seriously but don't you think this is a little bit too much?

(I've been stranded in an airport for six hours now and this thread has been PERFECT <3)
posted by rorgy at 3:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]




He won't do it. Or he at least won't do it with enough time for Pence to do anything.
posted by Jalliah at 3:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence was...clearly not briefed: "Invariably, [the media] they’ll say, this time we got him. This time we found that there’s another tweet come out or something""

Every news outlet sent out a breaking news alert on this and you're telling me nobody bothered to tell Pence before they let him in front of people? That's appalling staff work. Somebody must have known because they got the reporters out of the hot dog place.
posted by zachlipton at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


I genuinely can't fucking wait for the next time Gov. "Consider Me In 2020" Pence has to make a TV appearance.

Conservatives and evangelicals should be reminded they put up Trump and Cruz and Pence as their standard-bearers for the next 20-30 years, at least.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Could Pence replace Trump on the ticket?

Here's what the Republican Party's rules say about replacing a candidate:

The Republican National Committee is hereby authorized and empowered to fill any and all vacancies which may occur by reason of death, declination, or otherwise of the Republican candidate for President of the United States or the Republican candidate for Vice President of the United States, as nominated by the national convention, or the Republican National Committee may reconvene the national convention for the purpose of filling any such vacancies.

"Could Rule 9 be used to remove a nominee? There are two schools of thought on this. One says no; the other says maybe. It ultimately comes down to a matter of interpretation, and what the rule actually says is less important than what a majority of the RNC's members interpret it to say. At the center of the debate about Rule 9 are varying interpretations of the word "otherwise" in the rule's text."

tl;dr - unless Trump drops out (lol no), they almost certainly can't make him leave. And if they somehow managed it, his base would riot. Like literally riot.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Or maybe Pence is going to continue pretending shit ain't real.
posted by stolyarova at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


And if Pence was the candidate Hillary could run against him with ads about the HIV outbreak he caused or the anti-LGBT law he signed and the had to repeal because it was massively unpopular. The man was about to get crushed in his reelection campaign. It wouldn't be hard.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Meanwhile, on FOX
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


You think Trump would agree to step down without taking the entire campaign and party down with him? You think Pence, of all people, could hold that shitshow together? I doubt it. It would turn into a slaughter.
posted by yasaman at 3:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


@KeithOlbermann: Attention GOP: The lowering of the lifeboats on SS Trumptanic planned for Sunday after the debate, has been rescheduled for right effing now
posted by chris24 at 3:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [70 favorites]


Trump will never resign. I can't see him backing down.
posted by octothorpe at 3:14 PM on October 7, 2016


As a reminder, Pence was a cosponsor on a bill "that would have only permitted federal funds to be used if the rape was 'forcible,'" creating an alleged distinction between "forcible" rape and any other kind (as if there is or could be another kind), which apparently he thinks isn't as bad or something.
posted by zachlipton at 3:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [41 favorites]


Clinton would eat Pence alive. No hot sauce needed.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump will never resign. I can't see him backing down.

I expect it would be not unlike the end of Scarface.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Could Pence replace Trump on the ticket? And if so, fuuuuuuuck.

Not really, no. I think that ship sailed at least 30 days ago. Anyway, people are already voting in many states. If Trump dropped out and the RNC chose someone they would have to vote and it would be another civil war in the GOP, which would take at least a week, then there would be 3 weeks to change all the ballots, and convince america to vote for someone they have barely noticed so far. Clinton would win 400+ EVs easy.
posted by dis_integration at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


The really fucked thing is that he's still going to win 15 or 20 states

It would be nice if, even if you’re just supporting Trump because you always vote Republican because you are a party animal, you could just acknowledge that “our team picked a dickwad”.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I expect it would be not unlike the end of Scarface.

Say hello to my leetle hands!
posted by Drastic at 3:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [57 favorites]


On Twitter, Rick Wilson is saying "[a]ctually, there's worse". Which boggles the mind, because 1) what the fuck could be worse than this?; and 2) why the fuck didn't you use it?
posted by zombieflanders at 3:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


‏@MartinOMalley: As husband & father, these comments make me sick. @realDonaldTrump: real men don't talk this way. You have no business running for President
posted by chris24 at 3:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


@evansaathoff: Most elections have "October surprises" but this one has an advent calendar.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [139 favorites]


2) why the fuck didn't you use it?

Because it's only October 7th.
posted by Talez at 3:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


I don't expect it but what happens if Trump does step down? The ballots are already finalized in many states, are they not? And more are being finalized every day?
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on October 7, 2016


It's so awful and seems so typical of what to expect from that rotting pumpkin. Ugh!

I want there to be a joke somewhere in there about his tiny hands, but this just isn't funny at all. You know, how sometimes laughter and black humor can help through hard times...
posted by annsunny at 3:20 PM on October 7, 2016


On Twitter, Rick Wilson is saying "[a]ctually, there's worse". Which boggles the mind, because 1) what the fuck could be worse than this?; and 2) why the fuck didn't you use it?

Waaaay back during the primary, Cruz lambasted the press for pretending that Trump was the same as everyone else. I do think that this can be laid at their feat. Because man! Who doesn’t love an amazing October surprise like this?
posted by Going To Maine at 3:21 PM on October 7, 2016


It's amazing watching this implode in real time. I love you all.
posted by mochapickle at 3:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [53 favorites]


@pattonoswalt:
"Holy shit.

Trump...might have just been defeated by a Bush. Never would've picked Billy, but I'll take it."
posted by chris24 at 3:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [86 favorites]


I'm certain this was discussed in a previous election thread, but Trump cannot step down without Pence becoming a write-in candidate on pretty much all state ballots. This time, conservatives finally have to live with some consequences for their actions.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Because it's only October 7th.

Wilson is a GOP campaign consultant.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:23 PM on October 7, 2016


Think about all the Republicans who had this stuff in the primaries, and didn't mention it.

Cruz, Jeb!, Ryan, McConnell, they're all complicit in this just as if they'd said it themselves. They put this man on the ticket and lined up behind him knowing full well everything that was out there.

Never forget. Every elected Republican is Donald Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump Taj Mahal appears to have just gone bankrupt!

I want so badly for the conclusion of this election to be like the ending of UHF (a movie in which the villain, a media mogul, is taken down by his own hot mic video recording).
posted by mbrubeck at 3:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Think about all the Republicans who had this stuff in the primaries, and didn't mention it.

We don't know that they had it, but it's definitely "what did you know and when did you know it?" time.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I swear, every time it seems like it can't get worse, it does.
posted by joedan at 3:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


October No Prize

I don't expect it but what happens if Trump does step down?

It's in the hands of state election law now. I'd assume the Dems might sue in every state to keep him on the ballot.
posted by holgate at 3:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really want to know who saved the tape... We're they hoping to do a Negativlandesque project with it.
posted by drezdn at 3:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


AZ Senator Jeff Flake: America deserves far better than @realDonaldTrump

The lifeboats on the SS Trumptanic are boarding!
posted by Talez at 3:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


I know this is like...every other post here, but thank you all for going through this with me. I haven't been responding a lot, but I've read every single comment in these posts. When I think I'm about to devolve into a flaming pile of insanity because of the fetid misogyny and other kinds of loathsomeness this entire shit show has revealed, I think of you all and realize that at least we'll be able to talk about it on the blue.
posted by mynameisluka at 3:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [47 favorites]


I cannot WAIT for Biden's response to this. Sexual assault is one of his key issues.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


Wasn't Flake already safely on the shore sipping daiquiris?
posted by tonycpsu at 3:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


TRUMP: I've cheated on my wives
GOP: Yep
TRUMP: We should murder civilians
GOP: Okay
TRUMP: And loot countries we invaded
GOP: Free oil, yes
TRUMP: Everyone should have nukes
GOP: Why not
TRUMP: And we should use our own nukes
GOP: On brown people, yes
TRUMP: Putin is great
GOP: Better than Obama yea
TRUMP: Muslims should be banned
GOP: Totally
TRUMP: And shut down their mosques
GOP: Because 9/11
TRUMP: Women, you gotta treat 'em like shit
GOP: We're on board
TRUMP: Let's default on the debt
GOP: Fiscally responsible
TRUMP: My penis is big
GOP: Congrats
TRUMP: Torture is awesome
GOP: Sure is
TRUMP: I can't disavow the KKK because I don't know them
GOP: Who does?
TRUMP: Cruz's dad killed JFK
GOP: We all have our theories
TRUMP: Mexicans can't be impartial judges
GOP: They're biased
TRUMP: Obama birth certificate is a fake
GOP: Certainly possible
TRUMP: My groping game is top-notch, let me tell you
GOP: YOU MUST RESIGN
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [303 favorites]


CNN has a "warning graphic content" banner over the audio.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


So you think this release was timed with the signing of this assault bill or happy universal coincidence.

I just need to know whether I need to really start swooning over what appears it could be an ultimate in your face troll.
posted by Jalliah at 3:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


One of the things I'd be curious to know is whether this video is something any of the GOP primary oppo teams had. Not even as a question of competence or focus, but just: someone, somewhere, had to get this to someone, the Clinton campaign or a third party. And that someone has been sitting on it for a decade.

Depending on who that someone is, do they have any interest in bringing it to e.g. Jeb! or Cruz? It could very easily be something that the various R oppo teams could never have gotten, even if they'd known to look.

I am super curious about the provenance and the process on this one, not least because it takes up head space I'd rather not devote to the actual content any more today.
posted by cortex at 3:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


The JCPL hit rock bottom this morning but is now spiking on the baseless fantasy that Trump steps down, is replaced by crazy-ass Pence, and there isn't enough time for voters to learn that Pence is a gay, woman hating nutbar.
posted by Justinian at 3:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


@boldandworthy: The Billy Bush who told Al Roker to calm down about Lochte is the same person in that 2005 convo w/ Donald Trump?
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Jonathan Landay and Mark Hosenball at Reuters: “U.S. formally accuses Russian hackers of political cyber attacks”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah CNN is running it uncensored. And I'm glad they are. That's good. They currently have Lewandowski on who is unbelievably trying to defend Trump on this. CNN needs to just cut ties with him live on air. I'm not even going to repeat Lewandowski's nonsense justifications for this.

But I'm glad CNN is running it uncensored.
posted by cashman at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Every elected Republican is Donald Trump.

Credit where it's due. Lindsey Graham, Jeff Flake, and Ben Sasse are, in this one specific instance, real human beings, and have earned the right to say "We told you so!" to their colleagues until they get atomic wedgies in the Senatorial locker room. Every other elected Republican, particularly the ones who lined up in support after their ritual humiliation like John McCain and Ted Cruz, deserves to forever be tarnished with the fact that they would rather maintain their Red Team loyalty than show a little bit of decency.
posted by jackbishop at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


Okay I'm going to go do something I never do. I'm going downstairs to the tv and turning on CNN. I have to see this.
posted by Jalliah at 3:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jim Acosta ‏@Acosta
Lewandowski on CNN now: "We're not electing a Sunday school teacher."
This is going to be how they're spinning it. Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by Talez at 3:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Waiting for Paul Ryan's, "While I do not support sexually assaulting women, I still support Donald Trump for President."
posted by Justinian at 3:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Guys, voting has ALREADY STARTED in some states, including Ohio. Seriously, how would a replacement even work?
posted by kyrademon at 3:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


It wouldn't. The JCPL knows no logic or reason.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Tomorrow's New York Daily News cover page
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


Ana Navarro is the counter to Corey Lewandowski on CNN and she's fucking pissed.
posted by Talez at 3:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is going to be how they're spinning it. Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, I just couldn't even type it out. They need to kick Lewandowski the hell off the network. He went on for a good 6 or 7 minutes trying to defend it, and calling Trump "bold and brash" at the end of it. Deplorable.
posted by cashman at 3:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


"We're not electing a Sunday school teacher."

HRC taught Sunday School in Arkansas in the 1970s, so Yes. We. Are.
posted by acidic at 3:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [253 favorites]



Woah, Ana Navarro on CNN. She is pissed.
posted by Jalliah at 3:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


If he quit it would split votes between him and Pence. They wouldn't count as vote so for the same person! Hillary would dominate!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


how bout that VP debate guys
posted by J.K. Seazer at 3:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


How is CNN still not disclosing that Lewandowski remains a paid member of the Trump campaign?
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Someone for the love of god ask Kelly Ayotte if she still endorses him and will vote for him.

Oh, more than that: Ask her if she still thinks he's a role model.

Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 3:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Sally Bradshaw (Bush campaign manager) went on the record and said 'he's a pig, I'm not voting for him'"
posted by Talez at 3:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


how bout that VP debate guys

Let's go to the tape.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]



Ana Navarro just called out the entire GOP and said you have to decided whether to stand with this man. It is going to stick with you for the rest of your life. He's disgusting, lewd, unfit etc etc.
posted by Jalliah at 3:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


Strictly speaking a vote for Trump is actually a vote for Trump's electors, who could possibly vote for someone else if Trump stepped down beforehand. It would still be a total shitshow, though.
posted by ckape at 3:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ah yes, my bad. One is tempted to notice that his daughter's name is a diminutive form of his wife's name in Russian (and presumably Czech as well). Almost like you were meant to mix them up.

I need to gargle and spit, excuse me.

Tic tac?
posted by that's how you get ants at 3:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


HRC taught Sunday School in Arkansas in the 1970s, so Yes. We. Are.

It would not surprise me in the least to learn that Tim Kaine and Mike Pence also had Sunday-school stints.
posted by jackbishop at 3:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Somebody please tell me it's finally, finally time to sing "Never gon' be president now" at Trump. Please.
posted by mixedmetaphors at 3:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


Ben Carson Spokesman On Trump Video: “Hey, The Flesh Can Be Weak, My Man” [real]
posted by zombieflanders at 3:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Folks, if Pence somehow replaces Trump on the ballot and beats Hillary Clinton, I will print out every single election thread on heavy duty cardstock and eat them.

This is not a thing that is ever going to happen. Nobody knows who the fuck Pence is. The only reason he was available to run with Trump is because he is terrible and nobody likes him. If this unlikely ballot-switch scenario were to come to pass, he would be the figurehead of a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions and that is literally the only salient fact most voters would retain about him. Worrying about a last minute Pence ticket is peak performative despair.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


Somebody please tell me it's finally, finally time to sing "Never gon' be president now" at Trump. Please.

No no not yet. That comes in a minute. We're still in the "Hurricane" phase.
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Oh my god that NY Daily News front page is hilarious.
posted by stolyarova at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


What. Who talks at the dinner table like that?

Pass the turkey, Dad. NO NOT LIKE THAT
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [76 favorites]


Just watched Katy Tur and Lester Holt cover the tape on the national news tonight. No punches pulled.
posted by kingless at 3:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


@evangelicals4trump: "it's clearly that woman's fault. she dressed seductively. we must pray for her." [fake]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm enjoying this.
posted by diogenes at 3:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Today’s Trump Apocalypse Watch: Knock on Wood but Trump Might Be Done
Anything can happen; Hillary Clinton could get surprised by her own October Surprise. But it is going to take a lot of work for Trump, in under a month, to overcome a six-point deficit that, thanks to this story, is about to get bigger. We're lowering the danger level to an unprecedented 0.25 horsemen.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]



I should go downstairs and watch Trump explosions on CNN more often. There's fresh baked chocolate chip and gingerbread cookies down here!
posted by Jalliah at 3:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


I bet Hils is shimmying so hard right now.
posted by mochapickle at 3:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [53 favorites]


EXCERPTS OF HILLARY CLINTON’S PAID SPEECHES TO GOLDMAN SACHS FINALLY LEAKED
posted by waitingtoderail at 3:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, there are Hillary's paid speech transcripts, if genuine. It's not quite a nothingburger but it's at best a scrap of chicken with some stringy green beans compared to the Trumptober Surprise.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


. But it is going to take a lot of work for Trump, in under a month, to overcome a six-point deficit that, thanks to this story, is about to get bigger. We're lowering the danger level to an unprecedented 0.25 horsemen.

Yeah no idea how he comes back from this short of a video showing clearly the moment when Clinton murdered Vince Foster. He's going to have to answer for this at the debate and he's going to do a terrible job and Clinton's going to have a strong retort and he's going to flip his lid. I was nervous about Sunday but now I'm actually hyped up.
posted by dis_integration at 3:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is a gay

what on earth?

"Gay, woman-hating nutbar" was the original quote.

Pretty sure what was meant was "gay-hating and woman-hating nutbar."
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I actually enjoyed the transcripts (mostly). She has a complex, intelligent, and nuanced view of the world, and that's pretty much what the transcripts reveal.
posted by stolyarova at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Shane Goldmacher ‏@ShaneGoldmacher
Wow, @AshleyJudd just tweeted, and then quickly deleted this
I've heard him say such things in person, about his own family member's spouse.
HOLY SHIT.
posted by Talez at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [75 favorites]


Welp, tomorrow's Saturday Night Live script is all set.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


We already know that GOPpers downballot have an "only we can stand in the way of President Hillary Clinton" emergency backup plan. We had good reporting this week that the second debate would be the point at which they choose whether or not to deploy it, because any later would be too late. So.
posted by holgate at 3:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lucky Lin-Manuel, man. SNL gonna be lit.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


Obama twists the dagger by revealing Trump was really born in New Jersey.
posted by drezdn at 3:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm like 99% confident that you can't say "grab them by the pussy" and win a presidential election.
posted by diogenes at 3:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [87 favorites]


I can't believe we have a fucking rapist running for president.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


While from a big-picture political point of view I'm glad this news is out, I can't help but feel awful for the women he is talking about, having this broadcast to the nation. I really hope the media and others respect their privacy.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 3:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I never heard him "apologize" for talking to me & others about his family member's spouse, and especially her breasts. THIS IS WHO HE IS. - Ashley Judd
posted by waitingtoderail at 3:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm like 99% confident that you can't say "grab them by the pussy" and win a presidential election.

I GUESS WE'LL FIND OUT!

Someone, please hold me.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Clinton's speech transcripts were always more dangerous unleaked than leaked. I still can't figure out why she didn't release them since it would have put so much weird concern to bed. Skimming the release, she said... exactly what you'd expect someone in that position to say. There's no "whitey" tape here.

As others have pointed out, Clinton gave those speeches to rooms which were not uniformly composed of her biggest fans. It would only take one person there who didn't like her to go to the media and say "She said she wanted to put rich people in camps" or whatever the supposed secret scandal hidden in the transcripts was supposed to be.

Regarding the GOP primary, it should be unsurprising that none of the other candidates managed to field a successful oppo research operation. Oppo research makes sense when you're in 2nd and need to take out the guy in 1st - it's a blue shell. When you and five other guys are effectively running tied for 4th, you need to pick up some mushrooms first.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Soooooo how's that Trump Brand doing
posted by theodolite at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


I can't believe we have a fucking rapist running for president

You think we haven't had a rapist for president already? I'm absolutely sure we have.
posted by suelac at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


I can't believe we have a fucking rapist running for president.

Um....about that...
posted by howfar at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


The sad thing is that somewhere out there, there's an actual woman who this is talking about, and you know people are working on figuring out who she is. Somebody's going to remember seeing Trump at a furniture store 11 years ago or something and it's going to be a phenomenal inconvenience to someone who presumably wants no part in any of this. I hope she's never identified (unless she wants to be of course).
posted by zachlipton at 3:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


None of them openly ran on a rapist platform tho
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yep, we've had rapist Presidents before. What we have here is one that appears to think it's something to brag about.
posted by Justinian at 3:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [60 favorites]


Clinton's speech transcripts were always more dangerous unleaked than leaked. I still can't figure out why she didn't release them since it would have put so much weird concern to bed.

My guess is that she didn't need to release them to win the primary, so she held onto them so that her general election opponent could attack her on them, and then she could release them to prove the whole thing was a nothingburger. But the general election turned out to be... different than that. She probably wishes she'd released them during the primary now too.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 3:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton's speech transcripts were always more dangerous unleaked than leaked. I still can't figure out why she didn't release them since it would have put so much weird concern to bed.

Give them something to do. I guessed that back when it came up, for largely the reasons you said about if there was anything there, someone in the room would have gone to the press. But give these knuckleheads who are constantly searching for some scandal that isn't there, something to do that you know is a wild goose chase.
posted by cashman at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


How long until Conway is out the door. She's gotta be getting to a point where she's saying "the paycheck isn't worth this". She has some dignity, right?
posted by Talez at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton's speech transcripts were always more dangerous unleaked than leaked. I still can't figure out why she didn't release them since it would have put so much weird concern to bed. Skimming the release, she said... exactly what you'd expect someone in that position to say. There's no "whitey" tape here.

I think it was a strategic decision to waste the time and attention of idiots. When they finally get leaked, and they're nothing, then you have to wonder if the stuff said idiots have been making a stink about for years are also nothing.
posted by codacorolla at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


My October Surprise is that I now have a full blown nerdy, swoony crush on a newspaper reporter. This is something I would never have predicted.
posted by Jalliah at 3:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Ashley Judd reposted her tweet and a bit more. You go, Ms. Judd.

So unless Judd knew Trump before she turned 13, she's referring to either his sister-in-law or one of his two daughters-in-law.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


It looks like Kelly Ayotte is ready to go down with the SS Trumptanic.
posted by Talez at 4:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hassan is absolutely hammering her on it.
posted by Talez at 4:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


@theferocity: BILLY BUSH DELETED HIS TWITTER ACOUNT. *faints*

Yep, we've had rapist Presidents before.

I don't doubt this is probably true, but can you name names for me? Also, this is probably the first pro-rape campaign ever.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:01 PM on October 7, 2016


So unless Judd knew Trump before she turned 13, she's referring to either his sister-in-law or one of his two daughters-in-law.

She told Jezebel this same info back in July, but it got no play - I sure don't remember it. More details:

Ashley Judd Tells Us Donald Trump Is a Known 'Breast Gazer'

When I told Ashley Judd I was from Jezebel, she gave me a hug and an anecdote:

“I’ve known Donald for 15, 17 years? I’m friends with someone who married into the family. Anyway, I would bump into him at the U.S. Open, for example, and I think I can say the amount of time he has spent looking at my chest rather than my face is proportional to his insanity and functionality,” she said.

“If I may, this is what it’s like to talk to Donald Trump.” Judd stopped and stared pointedly at my chest. “He’s a chest gazer, a breast gazer, let’s be more specific—and, referring to the person who at that time was married into the family, he just sexualized her. ‘Doesn’t she look great? Doesn’t she look—?’ He’s just revolting.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


"His comments are totally inappropriate and offensive." - Senator Kelly Ayotte
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


‘Horribly embarrassed’ Billy Bush won’t lose job over Trump tape

WHAT THE FUCK NBC?
posted by Talez at 4:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


well look at it this way we can have x more weeks of the world going FUCK NO and rational people in the US going YOU'RE RIGHT FUCK HIM DON'T HATE US

it is just wow that he would even win a single state though.
posted by angrycat at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Politico: “How can you ignore this question?” an ABC reporter asked repeatedly, as Pence simply smiled and shook hands.

"Look, I'm a polished politician, like Hillary Clinton," he finally answered. [Fake]
posted by AndrewInDC at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016


Check your pocket for a nickel if you need to find a rapist President.
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [51 favorites]


He went on for a good 6 or 7 minutes trying to defend it, and calling Trump "bold and brash" at the end of it.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016


Even the NYT didn't censor.

They didn't print "pussy" though (they elided that bit). I wish the NYT would stop being so mealy-mouthed. We don't live in mealy-mouthed times, and it makes repulsive people sound more decent than they are.
posted by peacheater at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Thomas Jefferson, famously.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


‘Horribly embarrassed’ Billy Bush won’t lose job over Trump tape

WHAT THE FUCK NBC?

He was a wee lad of 33 at the time.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


There's no "whitey" tape here.

There never was a "whitey" tape. None. Not ever.
posted by vac2003 at 4:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


WHAT THE FUCK NBC?

At least Brian Williams got suspended and demoted to cable.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hassan is absolutely hammering her on it.

Ayotte has called Trump’s comments horrible, but I’m not certain if that’s going to be enough.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:05 PM on October 7, 2016


Trump: ‘I Know That Was Pretty Bad, But Let’s Just Say You’re Going To Want To Save Your Energy’ (The Onion, which, the way this election campaign has been going, will be [real] soon enough)
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


NY Daily News Cover
posted by Existential Dread at 4:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here's more about why I blame the "Mainstream Media" for MAKING Donald Trump:
"Letterman Has No Love for ‘Damaged’ Trump"
I’ve known Donald Trump for a long time, and I always thought he was exactly what New York City needed to have: the big blowhard billionaire. “By God, I’m Donald Trump, and I date models, and I put up buildings, and everything is gold.” Nobody took him seriously, and people loved him when he would come on the show. I would make fun of his hair, I would call him a slumlord, I would make fun of his ties. And he could just take a punch like nothing. He was the perfect guest.
So now, he decides he’s running for president. And right out of the box, he goes after immigrants and how they’re drug dealers and they’re rapists. And everybody swallows hard.
Like that was a surprise, after his Birther campaign (which Letterman never noticed), after his multiple political trial runs (including 2000 for the Reform Party, quitting and conceding to "right winger Pat Buchanan"). Nope, this is exactly the "big blowhard billionaire" that book publishers, the New York Times and the Late Night TV Talk Shows knew and loved for decades... and if you're going to tell me they didn't know all about his 'rapeyness', there's a bridge with a "Putin Peacemaker" banner on it I'd like to sell you.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Somebody please tell me it's finally, finally time to sing "Never gon' be president now" at Trump. Please.

[TRUMP]
I talked my way in
Said everything out loud that came to me
I talked my way in
I looked up and the world had its eyes on me

They passed a plate around
Total strangers
Moved to madness by my ravings
Raised enough for me to book passage on a
Ship that was GOP bound

I talked my way into hell
I talked my way to infidelity
I asked for a tic tac didn't want to smell
I shopped for furniture gave her the hard sell
And in the face of disdain and questions about my capital gain
I revealed myself as a rapist not at all urbane
And when my missteps with evangelicals were met with indifference
I opened my mouth, I revealed my own ignorance

In the eye of a hurricane
There is quiet
For just a moment
A yellow sky

[NATION (EXCEPT TRUMP)]
Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, wait…

[HAMILTON]
The Pussy Video

(Ok. Now it's time to sing the next song.)
posted by zachlipton at 4:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


peacheater, the version of the Times piece I'm seeing very definitely includes "pussy." It's kind of shocking how forceful it looks in print.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


that outraged kitty on the Daily News could be the Pepe of the left
posted by angrycat at 4:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


Actually - when I initially read the NYT article on my phone I think they glossed over some of the profanity, but now it appears to be there in all its glory.
posted by hilaryjade at 4:09 PM on October 7, 2016


Remember that children's book by Remy Charlip, Fortunately? It would be like "unfortunately, he fell out of a plane. Fortunately, he had a parachute."

Well, fortunately, Joy Reid will be on Hardball in a few minutes. Unfortunately, Michelle Bachmann is on there too.
posted by cashman at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jake Sherman ‏@JakeSherman
I've reached out to every House Republican leader. Not a single office has replied
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Emily Crockett at Vox: “Trump’s leaked comments aren’t just ‘lewd.’ They describe sexual assault.”
posted by Going To Maine at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


Yep, we've had rapist Presidents before.

I don't doubt this is probably true, but can you name names for me?

Thomas Jefferson. Fairly likely every other slave-owning president as well.
posted by jackbishop at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Times link here says "pussy" and "fuck" uncensored in quotes. I'm imagining they are having some difficult discussions in the newsroom on this, but I think there's a good chance they end up printing it. They're not playing around anymore.
posted by zachlipton at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


(Not that it matters in the slightest, but I've always found "pussy" to be the vilest of the available alternatives. Of course it would be Trump's preferred term.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN talking about what Republicans are going to do. Turning point for them.

Talked about Jeb's tweet.

@jebbush As the grandfather of two precious girls, I find that no apology can excuse away Donald Trump's reprehensible comments degrading women.
posted by Jalliah at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


OMG this has actually made me tune in to CNN (just to watch the shitshow)!
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Actually - when I initially read the NYT article on my phone I think they glossed over some of the profanity, but now it appears to be there in all its glory.

Our Trump tape story now updated. We decided to include phrasing we don’t normally publish in @nytimes.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


1st MSNBC is bleeping all of the words. 2nd Joy Reid needs to completely take over the coverage because the men for the last hour covering this shit are being total fucking apologists and really are full of bullshit.

3rd - 1 day Central Park 5, the video, the Russian hack, he's still talking about the mic, the hurricane. Jesus H.R. Clinton, can we just get this over with?
posted by Sophie1 at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, NYT updated their article to include the language after initially posting it (because everyone else was doing it).
posted by melissasaurus at 4:12 PM on October 7, 2016


@JebBush: As the grandfather of two precious girls, I find that no apology can excuse away Donald Trump's reprehensible comments degrading women.

That's great and all, but if you knew about this, you're just as culpable.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


So how does Trump show up on Sunday with this out there? If the moderator doesn't ask, you can be sure an audience member will. He's basically incapable of responding to any serious question about this without digging his hole even deeper and his staff has to know this. It really seems too late to back out, but how can he go through with it now?
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


We did learn that someone on Clinton's staff thinks that Jake Tapper is "such a dick."

Gendered insulting aside shouldn't all politicians think all reporters are dicks and shouldn't reporters want to be thought of as dicks by politicians?

If politicians like you then you are not a reporter. You're a microphone.
posted by srboisvert at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Not to mention the fact that people should be horrified about this even if they know or are related to zero women.
posted by mynameisluka at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


@JebBush: As the grandfather of two precious girls, I find that no apology can excuse away Donald Trump's reprehensible comments degrading women.

What about your cousin’s comments, sir?
posted by Going To Maine at 4:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


OMG this has actually made me tune in to CNN (just to watch the shitshow)!

Me too. First time I've had it on the whole election. I've watched clips and such but not straight tv.
posted by Jalliah at 4:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


These are his words. He owns them. They speak directly to his lack of character.
“Grab them by the pussy,” Trump says.
posted by mikelieman at 4:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


1 day Central Park 5, the video, the Russian hack, he's still talking about the mic, the hurricane.
And Deplorable Donald is no doubt pissed that the hurricane is taking away one of the top five headlines from HIM.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:15 PM on October 7, 2016


Ivanka Trump on her dad: "He's not a groper."
Donald Trump on getting women: "Grab them by the pussy.
--@Deadspin
posted by zachlipton at 4:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Wonder how this affects the Utah LDS vote . . . .

If they haven't left the church over this same sort of scandal, it seems unlikely they'd switch to a pro-choice candidate over it.

Utah is approximately 100% red. I don't see it going blue any time soon.

It's not enough to turn it blue on its own but it might be enough to get traditional Republican voters to stay home or vote Johnson or McMullin (McMuffin). A combination of the three could very give the state to Clinton.
posted by nathan_teske at 4:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


We did learn that someone on Clinton's staff thinks that Jake Tapper is "such a dick."

Not just anyone. That email was from super-democrat John Podesta.
posted by dis_integration at 4:16 PM on October 7, 2016


Okay, CNN just said one of Trumps first female surrogates coming on after the break. Pierson? Who else?

Not sure I can watch this.....
posted by Jalliah at 4:16 PM on October 7, 2016


In case anyone was wondering, grabthembythepussy.com is taken.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


Of course it would be Trump's preferred term.

He also uses 'screw' in his books, which just projects the kind of 'old man who runs his own knock-off of the Playboy mansion' vibe that... well, he projects.

I think a few NDAs are going to be broken this weekend.
posted by holgate at 4:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary's campaign on the Central Park 5, and Trump:
"Hillary for America Statement on Trump's Comments Related to Central Park Jogger Case:

After Donald Trump double down his view that the five men convicted and later exonerated on DNA evidence in the Central Park Jogger case are still guilty, Hillary for America Senior Policy Advisor Maya Harris released the following statement:

"The facts here are clear: These men were exonerated. Another man has admitted to committing the crime, as proven by DNA evidence. Trump rushed to judgment on the case, has refused to admit he is wrong and continues to peddle yet another racist lie, a pattern for him and a clear reason why he is unfit to be president."
posted by cashman at 4:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [47 favorites]


In case anyone was wondering, grabthembythepussy.com is taken.

I boggle. That IS AMAZING.
posted by Jalliah at 4:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


re "naming names":

JFK had an "affair" with a 19-year-old W.H. intern and at least once directed her to "take care of" (...) another man, e.g. at a pool party.

So there's that.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN's got Scottie Nell Hughes as their Trump surrogate. She says the words are bad, then immediately tries to pivot to Benghazi. [real]
posted by zachlipton at 4:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


In case anyone was wondering, grabthembythepussy.com is taken.

It is wholly inappropriate, but I want that “grab them by the pussy” quote reworked into a footwork track, a la Addison Groove’s “Footcrab” (“Trumpcrab?”)
posted by Going To Maine at 4:21 PM on October 7, 2016


Did Katrina and Kellyanne insult Trump at some point in history? Maybe this whole campaign is an elaborate ruse to make them humiliate themselves on national TV.
posted by ctmf at 4:21 PM on October 7, 2016


I think it's time for Shimmy Song, reprise.
posted by stolyarova at 4:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Shorter Michele Bachmann on Hardball.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


If politicians like you then you are not a reporter. You're a microphone.

This kind of assumes that politicians and reporters never occupy the upper left hand quadrant of the Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart. I mean, maybe that's not how I'd bet, but it's not impossible.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looks like the Trump supporter pivot is that his words are bad but Clinton's actions are worse. I've seen it before. But I thought Trump had the best words?
posted by girlmightlive at 4:24 PM on October 7, 2016



CNN: Scottie Hughes

Trumps words are really bad from 11 years ago but Hillary blah blah.

Gets interrupted and asked if she stills supports.

Summary: Says there are things he's said I don't like. But you know this is a man who hasn't lived like he was running for President. He lived in a world where this is normal.

And Holy Crap! CNN Erin (I don't know her name) tells Scottie her own story about a friend , a tic tac and Donald Trump kissed her friend. This happened to someone I know.
posted by Jalliah at 4:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


@SopanDeb: Lewandowski says Trump should do a sitdown TV interview right away with someone like Matt Lauer

Lauering the bar. I hope Matt has some vestige of a spine left to say no should he be asked.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Now Erin Burnett on CNN is telling the story for the first time of an anonymous woman who she knows who says that Trump was creepy to her in 2010 (when he was married at the time), that hearing about the Tic Tacs immediately made her sit up because Trump offered her Tic Tacs as he made unwanted advances in his office.
posted by zachlipton at 4:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


@tripgabriel: Ralph Reed, adviser to Trump, tells me 'An 11-year-old tape of private conversation...ranks v low on [evangelicals'] hierarchy of concerns'
posted by zombieflanders at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Aww, really Corey? But shouldn't Donald be preparing for the debate? You know, the town hall debate on Sunday when he'll have to face a an angry and disgusted nation?
posted by yasaman at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reince Priebus "No woman should be described in these terms or talked about in this manner. Ever."
posted by dis_integration at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Now Erin Burnett on CNN is telling the story for the first time of an anonymous woman who she knows who says that

Christ, this is Cosby all over again. How many more of these are we going to hear about before Sunday's town hall debate?

And yeah, as a reminder, Sunday's debate is going to be a town hall format with questions directly from the audience. Live. On the teevee.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Lewandowski says Trump should do a sitdown TV interview right away with someone like Matt Lauer

Yes, exactly. Billy Bush, then Lauer, then Dancing with the Stars where he can disappear from the rest of our lives forever. The Ryan Lochte playbook.
posted by acidic at 4:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


"tic tac Trump"

We have our nickname, people.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Patrick Healey now says that the Times will soon have a story about Trump kissing Miss Utah (Temple Taggart) on the lips in the 90s.
posted by zachlipton at 4:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tic-Tac Tush-Toucher Trump?
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:28 PM on October 7, 2016


oh shit I really don't want another cold war, guys :(

As opposed to the present one ?
posted by y2karl at 4:28 PM on October 7, 2016


Lewandowski says Trump should do a sitdown TV interview right away with someone like Matt Lauer

Or Savannah Guthrie.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Holy shoot! Reince Preibus statement read on CNN: “No woman should be described in these terms. Ever.”
posted by Going To Maine at 4:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ooooh, I like Tic Tac Trump. It reminds me of the Grinch: Stink, Stank, Stunk!
posted by stolyarova at 4:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


And Erin Burnett of CNN is JUST NOW getting around to telling this story?

"ranks v low on [evangelicals'] hierarchy of concerns'" ...but V HIGH on getting women who were not 'likely voters' becoming so just to vote AGAINST him.

Tic-Tacky Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reince is going to place another very stern phone call to Donald Trump (if he hasn't already) that will amount to exactly nothing.
posted by AndrewInDC at 4:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Lewandowski says Trump should do a sitdown TV interview right away with someone like Matt Lauer

Matt Lauer, the hard hitting "journalist". NBC-Comcast would probably happily offer some more air time as an in-kind contribution again. Convenient suggestion from Trump's embedded PR director.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


OK, can somebody take a reeeeeal close look at Rule 9? Because we are THIS CLOSE to getting either Rule 9 or Rule 34 invoked and I don't know which one is more terrifying.
posted by maudlin at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


It demonstrates a thorough contempt for women. If anything, this will help him among Evangelicals.

Anecdata: I have several Evangelical friends who have announced on Facebook that this is the last straw, they're voting for Hillary.
posted by EarBucket at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [72 favorites]


Is Paul Ryan still going to campaign with Trump tomorrow? What does Paul Ryan's wife think about that? Or his kids?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reince Priebus "No woman should be described in these terms or talked about in this manner. Ever."

Three days ago:
Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Reince Priebus on Tuesday called Donald Trump "a role model" at the same time some Republicans shied away from making such declarations.

"I think everyone's a role model in different ways," Priebus told Bret Baier on Fox News's "Special Report," adding, "I think he is a role model."

"When you look at someone who has built businesses, lost businesses, come back, lived the American dream, a person who sets goals, is a winner – I think he is a role model," Priebus said.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Chris Matthews just called this "a tricky bit of news." No, Chris, it isn't. It's not something that can't quite be proven or something that needs to be interpreted. This is misogyny. Simply. Men should not be reporting on this. Especially Matthews. We'll see how Chris Hayes does next.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


@HeerJeet If Trump thought being a reality show star gave him licence to grab women's genitalia, what will being president allow him to do?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [87 favorites]



Well Trumps supporters main defense in comments seems to be 'see he's just a normal guy. bout time that we have a normal red blooded American in the whitehouse. Guys talk like this all the time. He's going to go up in the polls because of this. You liberals will get mad at anything '

They are clueless.
posted by Jalliah at 4:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


CNN saying that Access Hollywood found this tape and said they were planning to run it but someone at NBC leaked to the Post to make sure it got seen.
posted by Jalliah at 4:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Chris Matthews just called this "a tricky bit of news." No, Chris, it isn't. It's not something that can't quite be proven or something that needs to be interpreted. This is misogyny. Simply. Men should not be reporting on this. Especially Matthews. We'll see how Chris Hayes does next.

It’s fine if men report on it. In some ways I’d think it’s better if men report on it. The question is how they report on it, and who’s writing the stuff on the teleprompter.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Has anyone checked in with r/TheDonald?
posted by tzikeh at 4:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN's got some backstory. The Access Hollywood producers found the tape lying around after seeing the story about Trump's backstage comments on The Apprentice. Someone remembered there was something there and they went digging through the archives, and Access Hollywood said they were going to run it sometime, but then somebody somewhere (presumably in NBC) leaked the tape to the Post [ed. I wonder if they didn't trust NBC].
posted by zachlipton at 4:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Has anyone checked in with r/TheDonald?

It's wall-to-wall leaked speeches and Bill is also a rapist.
posted by dis_integration at 4:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Well Trumps supporters main defense in comments seems to be “see he's just a normal guy. bout time that we have a normal red blooded American in the whitehouse. Guys talk like this all the time. He’s going to go up in the polls because of this. You liberals will get mad at anything”

From @NateSilver538 in May: Exclusive @FiveThirtyEight projection on what the Electoral College would look like if women refuse to vote Trump.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Is Paul Ryan still going to campaign with Trump tomorrow? What does Paul Ryan's wife think about that? Or his kids?

CNN saying no word yet. There might be an answer tonight. They're figuring out what to do.
posted by Jalliah at 4:39 PM on October 7, 2016


Has anyone checked in with r/TheDonald?

All Hilary speeches and Podeska emails. I can't find a thread on the Trump tape on the first page, which is as far as I'm willing to skim.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:39 PM on October 7, 2016


as far as I can tell the redditors at r/the_donald aren't mentioning the tape at all, but are gloating about wikileaks releasing Clinton emails that will surely be the downfall of her campaign and get her convicted and jailed.
posted by Roommate at 4:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN: How the shocking hot mic tape of Donald Trump was exposed
Trump's offensive comments about Alicia Machado were still making waves. And the Associated Press had just published a detailed story quoting former "Apprentice" employees saying Trump "was lewd and sexist" while taping the reality show.

With that in mind, a producer dug up the tape.

By mid-week, executive producer Rob Silverstein and his producing team had taken a look at its contents, and discovered that among other things it included a moment in which Trump told Bush, "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

After that, "we were debating what to do" with the tape, an NBC source explained.

By Friday morning, a script had been written. The story was not slated to air on Friday night's edition of the show, however.

Another NBC source confirmed that "Access" was working on a story, and that NBC News knew about it, but said that as of Friday morning the story "wasn't quite finalized."

That's when Silverstein was notified that David Fahrenthold of The Washington Post had come into possession of a copy.
More at the link.
posted by cashman at 4:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Has anyone checked in with r/TheDonald?

It was scary, but I took one for the team. It's all wikileaks nothingburgers.
posted by diogenes at 4:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Matthews seems totally uncomfortable with the topic and he sounds like an apologist. He doesn't have any idea of how to discuss this. Also, if Chris Matthews reads more than 2 words off a teleprompter during an hour, I'd be really surprised. He is a free association mess.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Paul Ryan's daughter is 14.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


DC CABBIE: Where to?
RYAN: De airport.
DC CABBIE: Is that beard real?
RYAN: Jes.
DC CABBIE: It's dark, why the sunglasses?
RYAN: Just DRIVE
--@onlxn
posted by zachlipton at 4:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Tweet

The Daily Show would like to formally withdraw its endorsement of Donald J. Trump.
posted by hilaryjade at 4:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


@SenatorKirk
DJT is a malignant clown - unprepared and unfit to be president of the United States.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


@SenatorKirk: "DJT is a malignant clown - unprepared and unfit to be president of the United States."

Rats abandoning ship.
posted by chris24 at 4:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't see what the big deal is. It's only offensive to women. And anyone who has a mom. Or a grandma. Or an aunt, sister, or daughter. Or female cousins. Or friends that are women. Or anyone who thinks of women as people, really. So like I said, no big deal.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


This must be what Elliot Ness felt like when he realized the Victrola recording of him talking about sexually assaulting flappers was his best shot at taking Capone down.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


All Hilary speeches and Podeska emails. I can't find a thread on the Trump tape on the first page, which is as far as I'm willing to skim.

I went to the 2nd page. Nada. Though I did have a giggle at the thread about how r/politics is all anti-Trump. Then I went to r/politics and in a thread about this they asked the same thing. 'Is this on r/The_Donald? It's not. Maybe someone should post.' Then replies about 'Nah I can't .banned. Let them live in their bubble etc etc"
posted by Jalliah at 4:44 PM on October 7, 2016


I think ... it's really over, isn't it? Maybe it's all over at last?
posted by argybarg at 4:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fox News is talking about how college campuses are too PC. Nothing about Trump, not even on the crawl.
posted by girlmightlive at 4:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


> "locker room banter"?

Like the excuse that mocking women was "for entertainment purposes," this actually casts Trump's statements in a far worse light, not better.
posted by flug at 4:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ann Coulter tweets "Billy Bush has a lot of explaining to do." (real, I think, amazingly)
posted by diogenes at 4:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


everybody does technically still have to go out and vote for Clinton
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [100 favorites]


I'm trying not to worry about the emails and speeches. What I've seen so far isn't super flattering but hardly seems shocking. Is there likely worse?

I'm terrified of people who think a politician speaking like a politician is worse than committing sexual assault.
posted by pointystick at 4:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


FAH-rent-HO-old (clap, clap, clapclapclap)
PYOO-lit-ZER-prize (clap, clap, clapclapclap)
posted by Etrigan at 4:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [32 favorites]


@MaeveReston: Statement from Ohio @senrobportman on Trump comments on tape: “The comments were offensive and wrong and he was right to apologize.”

Except he never actually apologized. I hope Strickland can make it stick somehow.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Emily Lakdawalla: "This seems like a good time to post an image of the Sun setting behind a Martian crater rim. Curiosity sol 312 ... Let the picture fill up your screen, and consider where it came from, and breathe in through your nose, out through your mouth..."
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


MSNBC has a woman complaining about Clinton right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2016


Every Republican politician needs to be asked "Are you still voting for Trump? Is he fit for the presidency?"

Anyone left supporting party over country needs to never be allowed near even a sniff of power ever again.
posted by Talez at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fox News is talking about how college campuses are too PC. Nothing about Trump, not even on the crawl.

They talked about it (Hume) at the beginning of the hour and ran the tape with bleeps. Of course that was after the opening 3 minutes of covering the hurricane, and not having anything about Trump, even on the scroll below, that I saw. But then they covered it.

I don't know the name of the on-site reporter who was out front of Trump Tower that they went to, but he looked like he wanted to be anywhere but there. Then I turned the channel.
posted by cashman at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I read what the Intercept posted of the speeches. Super .... boring, really. Very middle of the road.
posted by Dashy at 4:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know, I'm going to go counter to what folks have been fearing on mefi - that a Trump defeat just means a smarter, worse candidate to appeal to the same people in 2020. I don't think that's true. I think that if Trump is defeated, his people will have lost their historical moment. I think this election is functioning as a national referendum on whether it's just fine if men are semi-disgreetly rapey, discriminatory and hateful towards women, and if it's just fine if white people/Christians are openly or semi-discreetly stereotyping and hating Jews, Muslims, people of color, etc. I think this will be the right's version of the left's experience of the election of Nixon - they think they'll come back from it stronger because it's their time, but they've read the signs wrong.

I'm not saying that the right will fold up and blow away if Trump loses - not at all. But I think that while we may see some very public death-throes, if Trump loses it's going to push his politics to the fringe. Right now the normal American narrative is "oh, everyone is racist,, everyone cheats and steals whenever they can get away with it and men just either want to rape women or want to get rid of them, they can't help how they act, and the only people who aren't like that are weird leftist zealots who exercise super-human freakish kinds of self-restraint". I think that a real defeat for Trump won't change the minds of the hard core racists and misogynists, but it will change the default assumption of what is normal and acceptable.
posted by Frowner at 4:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [76 favorites]


We'll know it's over when DJT shows up at the next debate in full clown suit and make-up
posted by angrybear at 4:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Paul Ryan's daughter is 14.

My daughter's 4. I just tweeted this to about 10 of the major Republicans in the Senate:
Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump: "Grab them by the pussy."
...with a link to grabthembythepussy.com. And now I can Tweet no more.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Access Hollywood has identified the woman Trump was talking about.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


2 days ago Kellyann Conway was promoting this Daily Caller article: When It Comes To Celebrating And Promoting Women, Trump Has Always Walked the Walk

Which is full of gems like this
But you don’t have to be a feminist to esteem and respect women. Donald Trump clearly respects women. He’s proven it time and again in the most significant ways possible.

And this:
Why would Trump listen to Ivanka? It’s obvious, I think.. It’s a father’s deep love for his daughter. She’s clearly the apple of his eye, and there’s probably nothing that pains him more than when Ivanka is upset with him. Which gives her enormous influence.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


When Trump said he needed "Law & Order" we didn't realize he specifically meant "Special Victims Unit"
posted by Talez at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [88 favorites]


@lin_manuel, 21 hours ago:

Good night.
Everything could change tomorrow.
Or one tiny, vital thing.
What it WON'T be is a re-run of today.
Rest up.
posted by tzikeh at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


Access Hollywood has identified the woman Trump was talking about.

Don't leave us hanging!
posted by Talez at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2016


Canceled my plans for tonight because I sure as hell am not missing this.

The glee I feel right now (and keep in mind, I am full on cackling like a witch), is proportional to the anger built up after 15 years of working around men who stared at my chest instead of my face when I asked them a question, hugged me against my consent, oogled me in the hallway, and everything else that comes with trying to draw a paycheck at the same time as being female. The worm has turned, asshole rapey dudes.

Hey Donald? You're fucking fired.
posted by sallybrown at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [89 favorites]


Nancy was Billy's co-host.
posted by diogenes at 4:53 PM on October 7, 2016


We already know that GOPpers downballot have an "only we can stand in the way of President Hillary Clinton" emergency backup plan.

Read this text aloud as the GOP junior members approach the GOP Emergency Planning Office:
The door is half open, and the mess from the ransacked office reaches out into the corridor. There are papers and folders everywhere, not all from the gutted filing cabinet half blocking the doorway. The door itself is on one hinge. Inside, paper and open binders are everywhere. The ripped maps on the wall are of Middle Eastern countries (Benghazi Knowledge won't help.) The latest date on any paper is from thirteen years ago. Burn marks and brown stains tell partial confused stories of madness and violence, but nothing recent. An upturned folding table blocks a doorway to an inner office. The air is very still, as if even the vandals gave up on this place years ago.
There's no plan, but there's like 2d4 stirges.
posted by fleacircus at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Access Hollywood Says It's Nancy O'Dell, who's been an entertainment reporter for ages.
posted by annsunny at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2016


They were reportedly talking about Nancy O'Dell, Bush's colleaugue.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2016


Listening to Keeping it 1600 recorded right before this broke and Katy Tur is on, talking about how Trump needs to appeal to suburban women.

...so that went well.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hillary's campaign just put out a brutal new video using these quotes and others.
posted by ukdanae at 4:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Another Ann Coulter tweet:
Sounds like Trump got that audio problem cleared up. #MakingPssyGrabbedAgain
posted by hilaryjade at 4:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


@GarrettHaake Trump's Virginia chair @CoreyStewartVA says tape won't bother women: "He's not an angel. He's not a saint," adds "We know who we voted for"

Mansplainer extraordinaire: Women won't be bothered by the tape because they knew he was not a saint.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's no plan, but there's like 2d4 stirges.

The 2016 election has reached the historic point of making me actually pleased about stirges.
posted by Sequence at 4:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


You guys. I have to do my fucking Computer Science homework tonight. I do not have time for all hell to break loose with the election.

I can't quite bring myself to listen to the audio.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


That lighting-quick Clinton ad on the tape. (fixed link)
posted by maudlin at 5:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [45 favorites]


Hillary's campaign just put out a brutal new video using these quotes and others.

Goddamn, they're good.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


That Clinton ad is damn good, by which I mean infuriating/awful
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


@SenatorKirk: "DJT is a malignant clown - unprepared and unfit to be president of the United States."

Rats abandoning ship.

To be fair, Mark Kirk was the first Republican congressman to publicly oppose Trump, but he never had a chance at reelection anyway.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:02 PM on October 7, 2016


That "ash heap of history" quote about abortion is from Pence, btw
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Nancy was Billy's co-host.

Wow. Fire Billy Bush. What woman will ever want to work with him again? You gross piece of shit.
posted by sallybrown at 5:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


@willrahn:
BUSH COMPOUND, DECEMBER 2015 —

JEB: We must stop Trump. Any ideas?

GWB: Nope

GHWB: Sorry no

BILLY: Nope, no idea, nothing, zilch, zero
posted by chris24 at 5:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [74 favorites]


Dana Bash reports Trump campaign is at "Defcon 5"
posted by mochapickle at 5:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


@SenatorKirk: "DJT is a malignant clown - unprepared and unfit to be president of the United States."

Very on trend, bud.
posted by sallybrown at 5:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Dana Bash reports Trump campaign is at "Defcon 5"

She said Defcon 5 was an understatement. Which is the truth because Defcon 5 means everything is fine and Defcon 1 is shit hitting the fan.
posted by Talez at 5:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [56 favorites]


Dana Bash reports Trump campaign is at "Defcon 5"

50 years and 6000 shitty Tom Clancy novels later and no one knows 1 is the worst. It counts down, journalists.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [73 favorites]


Thank you, I was just trying to figure out "like real Defcon 5 or like movie Defcon 5?"
posted by Sara C. at 5:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dana Bash reports Trump campaign is at "Defcon 5"

Uh, DEFCON 5 is the lowest state of readiness. Come to think of it, though, maybe the incompetent Trump campaign really is only at that alert level.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Of all the people I expect to understand DEFCON status, the Trump camp is back of the line.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


They clearly need to play more Twilight Struggle
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


This is amazing: The Trump Post-Debate Downward Spiral Calendar.
posted by peacheater at 5:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]



CNN Breaking News :Trump: When you're a star you can grope women.
posted by Jalliah at 5:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


They clearly need to play more Twilight Struggle

Jeez, we don't need to be that mad at them.
posted by Etrigan at 5:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


(waits for Marla Maples to tell me what the pumpkins are doing now)
posted by sallybrown at 5:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


I can't find her statement but CNN saying that Cathy Morris Rodgers is calling it condoning sexual assault.
posted by Jalliah at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Watching Chris Hayes on MSNBC one of his GOP guests referred to Trump as a suicide bomber being let into the room with all the party leadership by Reince Prebius.
posted by humanfont at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Of course, back in the prehistoric year of 2012, Mitt was pretty happy to take his money and use him as a campaign surrogate.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


(waits for Marla Maples to tell me what the pumpkins are doing now)

Tell us, Marla, have the pumpkins stopped screaming?
posted by maudlin at 5:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Of all the Republicans to hit as sleazeballs right now, Mitt Romney is not one. I voted against him and would again, but the man has held a very hard line reasonably well this year.
posted by argybarg at 5:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [32 favorites]


It's clear at this point that Clinton has a huge repository of Trump quotes in text, audio, and video form. My Christmas wish is that she has (okay, her staff have) maintained this archive for any Republican who has sided with Trump - the later in the game, the better. I hope that after she's elected she makes the whole repository public so that any time down the line any of these jerks choose to bring their heads aboveground the entire Democratic party has the means to say, "No, you deliberately sided with that sexist racist jerk and here's the proof."

I really do think she's changing the game here in the category of "how to attack your opponent" where the answer is "literally just play back the words they said" and I hope it can be applied up and down the ticket for years to come.

(of course no one's words will ever be as vile as Trump's, I can hope.)

(I can hope)
posted by komara at 5:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Watching Chris Hayes on MSNBC one of his GOP guests referred to Trump as a suicide bomber being let into the room with all the party leadership by Reince Prebius.

This is what it is. Because it's already blowing up the people who refuse to un-endorse, or god forbid, support this. And then you think about - why is this a bridge too far? It condones sexual assault? It objectifies women? Well hey, Trump is not the first to do that...who else? Ailes is out. How many other women in public jobs like television, journalism, politics are treated like this?

This is a tipping point in this country, and I agree with Frowner. This election is not the new normal, with a bunch of more palatable Trumps to follow. This election is the point at which the patriarchy's crimes come home to roost.
posted by sallybrown at 5:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


"Of all the Republicans to hit as sleazeballs right now, Mitt Romney is not one. I voted against him and would again, but the man has held a very hard line reasonably well this year."

It is astounding to think that in four years I have gone from basically hating him to now accepting him as a patient voice of reason within the party. Simply astounding.
posted by komara at 5:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


(and yes, I include Bill Clinton in that long line of sleazebags. Bill is not running for office, though.)
posted by sallybrown at 5:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Mitt Romney is not one. I voted against him and would again, but the man has held a very hard line

When his career is over and it cost him nothing to do so.

In 2012 he fully embraced Trump at the height of birtherism. He deserves less than zero credit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Don't forget, Roger ailes is advising this campaign. Also, the video was taken, quite literally, 3 blocks from my front door. I live 3 blocks from the old NBC studios.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


In fact Mitt was one of the first to acknowledge Trump as a respectable member of the Republican party. Mitt is very much to blame for Trump's rise to mainstream.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


In fact Mitt was one of the first to acknowledge Trump as a respectably member of the Republican party. Mitt is very much to blame for Trump's rise to mainstream.

Yes, but he has also taken some very forceful, public steps against him. That isn’t the same as exoneration or atonement, but in a multidimensional political world it is a set of complications.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking of another disappointing, cowardly Republican now just reconsidering, here's Huntsman:
One week after explaining why he planned to vote for Donald Trump, former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman said it is time for the Republican nominee to drop out of the race and allow vice presidential nominee Mike Pence to represent the party. His reversal came in reaction to an explosive video that emerged Friday showing Trump bragging about groping and kissing women. "In a campaign cycle that has been nothing but a race to the bottom — at such a critical moment for our nation — and with so many who have tried to be respectful of a record primary vote, the time has come for Governor Pence to lead the ticket," Huntsman told The Salt Lake Tribune. ...
posted by maudlin at 5:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I didn't say Mitt was honorable overall. He is just somewhere around #344 of dishonorable GOP actors in this election cycle.
posted by argybarg at 5:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


For all those who were surely wondering, Egg McMuffin is hitting the GOP leadership hard on twitter.

By standing with @realDonaldTrump, GOP leaders are standing for his abuse of women and lack of respect for marriage.

If GOP leaders will stand with @realDonaldTrump no matter how clearly he violates their stated values, what ARE their values really?

There is some speculation Egg has some important admirers out around DC where he's polling fairly well. I'm seriously starting to think about donating to his campaign just to support his kind of conservatism over the toxic current GOP brand. In a binary system we simply can't risk people like Trump or Cruz being one of the two options, since sooner or later they'll actually win.

Thankfully that doesn't appear to be this year though.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Twitter thread started by kelly oxford (disturbing/triggering):
Women: tweet me your first assaults. they aren't just stats. I'll go first: Old man on city bus grabs my "pussy" and smiles at me, I'm 12.
posted by sallybrown at 5:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


Remember Huntsman?

After video, Huntsman says it is time for Trump to drop out
posted by Hairy Lobster at 5:31 PM on October 7, 2016


SINK FASTER, SHIP!
posted by KathrynT at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


The big problem is what happens if the Republicans do manage to get Trump to drop out. Things like ballot access - and whether there's time for the Clinton campaign to pivot.
posted by Francis at 5:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apparently you have to go to the .docx for the whole 80 pages of excerpts from the secret Clinton speeches. I just skimmed a little so far but it seems to be a mix of "bad," "good," or just interesting things to potentially highlight, not just "bad" like the ones in the e-mail itself.

There's several pages of her praising Wal-Mart in the "bad" column, and that shit ain't even hardly come up.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:35 PM on October 7, 2016


former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman said it is time for the Republican nominee to drop out of the race and allow vice presidential nominee Mike Pence to represent the party.

I'm confused as to whether they don't understand how federal elections work, or just don't care at this point.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


The court cases in such a situation would be massive. For example, the Republicans would undoubtedly sue to get early and absentee ballot votes for Donald Trump to count for Mike Pence. Would they?
posted by Justinian at 5:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Another Ann Coulter tweet:
Sounds like Trump got that audio problem cleared up. #MakingPssyGrabbedAgain

Wait, is Coulter for or against Trump here? I don't quite get this. That hashtag, by the way, just don't read it. It's deplorable frogs all the way down.
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


This video had me in tears of rage. Rage at being a woman for 50 years, and having been treated like this, by men like that, for 40 of those goddamn years. Rage that this will be handwaved away by apologists, Rage that I can't let my son watch the news without gearing up to explain this story. Rage that a woman like Hillary Rodham Clinton is not leaping away from this monstrosity in the polls, rage that we e come this close to letting tic tac trump get this far, divide us this much, and there are still established GOP supporting him.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [94 favorites]


Wait, is Coulter for or against Trump here? I don't quite get this. That hashtag, by the way, just don't read it. It'sdeplorable frogs all the way down.

Coulter has been tweeting in support and boys will be boys type crap.
posted by Jalliah at 5:39 PM on October 7, 2016


Twitter thread started by kelly oxford (disturbing/triggering):
Women: tweet me your first assaults. they aren't just stats. I'll go first: Old man on city bus grabs my "pussy" and smiles at me, I'm 12.

Update:

I am currently receiving 2 sex assault stories per second. Anyone denying rape culture, please look at my timeline now. #notokay
posted by bibliowench at 5:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [60 favorites]


If Trump drops out and two states in different circuits decide to count Trump votes for Pence (or not), and then the circuit courts disagree about whether that's legal, we go to the Supreme Court to settle the issue and they deadlock 4-4 and oh fuck constitutional crisis.

Thanks Mitch McConnell.
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


@Mitchellvii (Right Wing Talk Show Host, Bill Mitchell) What's interesting is that if you look at the Bible's heroes, they are exactly like Trump. Flawed but redeemed. David, Samson, Paul...

Didja hear that sound? My eyeballs rolled so hard I think I broke something.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


CNN is amazing right now. If you can't watch right now look up the Anderson Cooper show later.
posted by Jalliah at 5:40 PM on October 7, 2016


Twitter: Kayleigh McEnany, one of CNN's stable of in-house Trump supporters, says Trump comments "inexcusable" and he needs to "humble himself"
posted by sallybrown at 5:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Access Hollywood story with "context". (Video is embedded in a tweet.)
posted by maudlin at 5:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Clinton camp should cut a commercial with the uncensored audiotape and dare the FTC to fine them for it.
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


@KatyTurNBC: "Crucial swing state GOP operative: "I think today is a game changer.""

"Operative adds it's getting harder to protect integrity: "Everyday I have to wake up and make the decision whether I will continue.""
posted by chris24 at 5:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


I suppose the FTC would fine the networks that ran it rather than the Clinton campaign, sadly.
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on October 7, 2016


I spent two hours at my desk after work hours, unable to tear myself away from this story.

Then I went out and bought a big bag of Halloween candy and two bottles of good wine.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


@Mitchellvii (Right Wing Talk Show Host, Bill Mitchell) What's interesting is that if you look at the Bible's heroes, they are exactly like Trump. Flawed but redeemed. David, Samson, Paul...

I cannot believe how vile this is. Comparing his bragging about sexual assault to being a biblical hero?? Truly disgusting and vomit inducing.

And I'm an atheist. They think we're immoral.
posted by theredpen at 5:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [65 favorites]


I am relishing this shit. Is this finally the tipping point? Are we gonna see a landslide after all? Because the rapey comments feel like a direct torpedo hit on a ship that was already smoking and taking on water from multiple hull breaches.

He will surely be asked about this on Sunday (and I wonder if the timing was deliberate). I'll tune in just to see that.

May everyone aboard the SS Trump, and especially the captain, slip into a watery political grave. And may Election Day be a day of fucking reckoning for the GOP. Evolve or die.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Remember when Donald Trump complained about his mic not working? The universe has a sense of humor.
posted by Talez at 5:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [71 favorites]


If Trump drops below 5% in the 538 forecast, I'm going to gleefully urinate in my pants in celebration
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Hah! I just got this text from the Clinton camp:
"'You can do anything' when you're famous. That's Trump on groping women, just reported in the Washington Post. Let's beat him: [link to fundraising site]"

They're so out of fucks/evens/whatevers that they're just going go with "Let's beat him." Why waste any further words on this pathetic slime?
posted by bibliowench at 5:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


@ImChrisMoon: "@realDonaldTrump You should use the mic from the Billy Bush interview for the next debate. It works really really well."
posted by chris24 at 5:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


It isn't just Trump who is making me angry it is all the talk of "boys will be boys." No. I refuse to believe that most men try to cheat on their wives a few months after being married. I refuse to believe that most men talk about grabbing pussy. He is gross and I believe not normal; those people who are trying to normalize this behavior are just as bad as he is. This is like when the jock gets to sexually harass and eventually rape someone just because he is needed on the team.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [70 favorites]


Maggie Hassan is going harder and harder on Ayotte.

Kelly Ayotte is stuck in a full Kobayashi Maru right now.

Sorry for all the NH news but I'm in northern Mass volunteering for Hillary NH and this race is kind of personal for me.
posted by Talez at 5:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


> @MittRomney: Hitting on married women? Condoning assault? Such vile degradations demean our wives

*looks around*

I have a wife?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


"He is a pig. He is vile... This man is not fit to be president of the US. He is not fit to be the Republican nominee. He is not fit to be called a man." - Ana Navarro on CNN

where is my popcorn tonight
posted by ilicet at 5:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [54 favorites]


Absolutely the least important part of the story, but the backstory behind what happened here has got to be interesting. Access Hollywood wasn't going to run the story today, but someone with a copy of the tape, quite likely an NBC employee, leaked it to Farenthold first. Given NBC's role in shilling for Trump, it's an odd situation.
posted by zachlipton at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Clinton ad made me cry.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ana Navrro's rage blazes with the fury of one thousand incandescent suns and it is glorious.
posted by Justinian at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


I have a wife?

Well now you do as I just enspousenated you!
posted by winna at 5:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


Man, the Access Hollywood piece really does a good job of pointing out that this wasn't a private conversation that was surreptitiously recorded, but rather a portion of an interview that was done with seven other people present. (Most of them had left the bus while this particular portion of the conversation happened, but still, he knew he was mic'ed.)
posted by KathrynT at 5:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


So, for part of my job, I go to presidential campaign rallies. I'm working out of North Carolina, and got to attend Michelle Obama's Charlotte rally, which was really nice. It's my third time seeing Michelle Obama speak, and she's always such a knockout. My Mom, who lives in Charlotte, was able to join me. It was pretty cool, hanging out with Mom, and watching the First Lady. Mom thought Michelle Obama was great. Also, she really really dislikes Trump. Mom's cool.

I just found out that next Friday Trump will be having a rally in Charlotte, so I msg'd Mom:

Me: Trump rally next friday in Charlotte. I'll likely be down for it. Will you still be around, and do you want to go?

Mom: Too bad I'll not be here. Otherwise, I would like to go.

Me: OK. Want me to pick you up a racist misogynist t-shirt or anything? There's always vendors there.

Mom: Sure!

(I'm not actually getting my Mom a horrible t-shirt though. She knows my sense of humor.)
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh man, just remembered that Sunday is the town hall. No way they keep it out.
posted by gerryblog at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


> @MittRomney: Hitting on married women? Condoning assault? Such vile degradations demean our wives

*looks around*

I have a wife?

Maybe he thinks wives is the plural of wiff? Like, Trump has a vile stench like Tarkin that demeans our noses?
posted by Groundhog Week at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Well now you do as I just enspousenated you

Now Trump's jerky behavior is personal! I shall defend, you, my wife.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [51 favorites]


someone with a copy of the tape, quite likely an NBC employee, leaked it to Farenthold first...

My (much less politically obsessive) wife's comment when I was telling her "what we know" about the source and got to this exact point: "Wanna bet it was a woooomaaaannnn?"
posted by jammer at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Anderson Cooper preparing for the debate like the rest of us.
posted by Talez at 5:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Man, the Access Hollywood piece really does a good job of pointing out that this wasn't a private conversation that was surreptitiously recorded, but rather a portion of an interview that was done with seven other people present. (Most of them had left the bus while this particular portion of the conversation happened, but still, he knew he was mic'ed.)

Which makes you really wonder how much worse he is in private.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


BREAKING: Samantha Bee recorded having extremely lewd conversation about men in 2016. (Video embedded in a tweet BECAUSE THAT'S HOW FAST THINGS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW)
posted by maudlin at 5:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


I've said it before, and I'll say it as often as I have to say it until we watch Secretary Clinton take the oath of office: this is not a normal election. This is a referendum on what kind of a country we want the U.S. to be. Up- and downticket, it all matters so very much. I'm retired and have no grandchildren to worry about, but I don't want my kids and anyone else's kids and grandchildren or any human beings suffering under Republican rule. For all the reasons we've discussed here, we must make this election say that the U.S. wants to be decent to our own folk, to our newcomers and to those in other countries. Will we be perfect? No, but it all starts with being decent and inclusive.
posted by Silverstone at 5:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


CNN's got an extended highlight reel playing of Trump's worst comments on women over the years.
posted by zachlipton at 5:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now Mark Kirk says Trump should drop out.
posted by gerryblog at 5:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


@TheGarance: "To be female is to have had some body part grabbed against your will by a man at some point. Every woman has an opinion about such men."
posted by chris24 at 5:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Trump's name can stay on the ballot, you are not actually voting for Trump. You are voting for electors who have been chosen by the party. Those electors could decide to vote for whatever ticket the RNC decides; assuming Trump drops out.
posted by humanfont at 5:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really hope we find out which furniture store Trump took Nancy O'Dell to, and I really hope that furniture store sells nothing that isn't gold plated.
posted by chrchr at 5:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's name can stay on the ballot, you are not actually voting for Trump. You are voting for electors who have been chosen by the party. Those electors could decide to vote for whatever ticket the RNC decides; assuming Trump drops out.

So even split votes between Pence and Trump wouldn't mean squat if HRC doesn't win 270+. [this is terrifying]

Guys, you gotta elect Clinton and as many downticket Dems as possible. Please.
posted by maudlin at 5:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Look, can I just say, folks, can I just say this, the mainstream media wants you to believe that mic was hot, but it was at best a seven folks, at *best* a seven, maybe an eight in dim lighting, okay?
posted by uosuaq at 5:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


Video embedded in a tweet BECAUSE THAT'S HOW FAST THINGS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

FWIW it's new audio put over a quick cut of footage from their convention coverage. Assuming they have a VO recording bay in the same building where the Samantha Bee writer's offices are, this would have taken maybe 20 minutes to put together.
posted by Sara C. at 6:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's name can stay on the ballot, you are not actually voting for Trump. You are voting for electors who have been chosen by the party. Those electors could decide to vote for whatever ticket the RNC decides; assuming Trump drops out.

You are voting for electors. Some of whom are bound by law to vote for the name that appears on the ballot. State laws vary. That's why it would be a clusterfuck.
posted by Justinian at 6:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


humanfont, I don't think that's right. At the very least it would require unprecedented legal challenge in multiple states to get votes cast for Trump to count for someone else.
posted by gerryblog at 6:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have had a building feeling of frustration all year seeing men studiously try everything they can to avoid coming around to Clinton. I was never much of a Clinton fan. So my guy friends say "Check out Bernie," I check him out. Fiscal policies are unworkable. Bye. I give myself a throwaway petulance write-in vote for Warren in the primary, and then I suck it up and go With Her. Then my guy friends ask "Hey, how about this Gary Johnson?" I laugh, because...libertarianism is 180 degrees from my view of life. But ok, you do you. Then "What is Aleppo?" Guy friends...throw tantrums. They'll settle down, I think. I try to persuade them with...threat of nuclear war, threat of economic collapse, threat of a President who thinks of me only as a pointless, untempting toy. They post memes of babies throwing tantrums: "How I feel about voting for any of these people." The way they dart their eyes around Hillary reminds me of sitting in my classroom with my hand up while the teacher tried to avoid calling on me. Yesterday morning I thought to myself...these (straight white) guys, who say they support women's rights and equality - they don't want to come along with men and women of color and white women as we make the only sane choice? Because why, they're afraid of losing privilege? I'm tired of holding the door open for them and frantically waving to them that it's safe for them to come along. I don't care anymore, the train is boarding and it's moving on without them, because they are choosing to be left behind. They are CHOOSING to be left behind.

This tape is my line in the sand. Any straight white man* who can see this tape and votes for Trump or stay home, you deserve to be left behind. I don't even feel bad anymore. I don't have any more time to cater to your crap.

*I very rarely will make a statement like this, and I say this here because I believe people of color and LGBT people have more than legitimate reasons to refuse to vote for Clinton in a way that white men do not.
posted by sallybrown at 6:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [110 favorites]


@MarkHarrisNYC:
"Lost in all the vileness of that tape is the fact that at one point Trump looks at the woman who is his prey and says, "It looks good."

It."
posted by chris24 at 6:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [74 favorites]


So yall know what's going to happen tomorrow right?

Whatever event Trump is having is going to get covered beginning 2 hours before it starts, and to the exclusion of everything else. Trump will put up people advertising for him, saying good things about him - he'll probably trot out military people, and advertising something related to one of his business scams.

Of course Trump won't make more than a passing, 10-second reference to any of this stuff, but his event will be covered as if the entire thing is him talking about it. We'll all be annoyed as hell.

You know that's going to happen right? Probably with Paul Ryan happily waving alongside him. There are probably cameras trained on an empty chair/stage right now, just waiting for the networks to switch to it.

And after the event, the scrolls (I'm too boring to use the word chryon) and text on the screen will say something ridiculous like "TRUMP: CLINTON IS [blah blah]". Bet money that happens tomorrow.
posted by cashman at 6:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Follow-up to my second-last comment: An Official Statement From The Full Frontal Team
posted by maudlin at 6:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


To be clear, I'm talking about the votes that determine the electors; the Electoral College is structured differently and generally more freely (I believe it's unclear that state-level laws could even actually bind electors in practice). But you don't get anywhere near enough electors to the EC if Trump drops out today and you have votes split between him and the replacement candidate, at least not without a massive legal nightmare in 50 states. Clinton would win in a walk.
posted by gerryblog at 6:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


My blue-sky fantasy now is:

Trump drops out the day before election day. Too late to get any other stand-in candidate up, or for the Trump supporters to know what to do, so the Trump support sort of fizzles and defuses the "but the electors can still vote for Trump" threat because people aren't sure whether to vote for Pence or Johnson or whether they're going to stay home and re-schedule or what - but still soon enough that Election Day turns into a huge block party sort of situation with the polls staying open, and all the Clinton supporters parading in throughout the day and then the streets just outside turning into huge block parties that they join afterward.

Kind of like what happened Election Night in 2008, only that kind of celebration happening the entire day because we know we've won already.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


TRUMP NOT ATTENDING RYAN EVENT IN WISCONSIN TOMORROW
posted by Talez at 6:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


The way they dart their eyes around Hillary reminds me of sitting in my classroom with my hand up while the teacher tried to avoid calling on me.


YAAAASSSSSSSSSSSS

Thanks for putting words to something I felt during the entire primary process. No bad feelings about Bernie and his supporters, but "darting their eyes around Hillary" really gets at something that has disturbed me about the entire election so far.
posted by Sara C. at 6:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


humanfont, I don't think that's right. At the very least it would require unprecedented legal challenge in multiple states to get votes cast for Trump to count for someone else

I just recieved my Virginia Dems sample ballot, it's worded as "Electors for Donald Trump, Mike Pence". I'm pretty you're voting for a slate of electors, who then vote according to the state's law, which may or may not bind them to vote for the winner of the popular vote in that state.

Trump's name would most likely have to stay on the ballot, and that's what the litigation would be about, not who the electors are/must vote for in the actual electoral college.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


RYAN: I am sickened by what I heard today. Women are to be championed and revered, not objectified.

I hope Mr. Trump treats this situation with the seriousness it deserves and works to demonstrate to the country that he has greater respect for women than this clip suggests."
posted by Talez at 6:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The irony is that Roger Stone was right: this week Hillary's campaign is finished.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [42 favorites]


Per Katy Tur, Paul Ryan just disinvited Trump from his Wisconsin event tomorrow.
posted by gerryblog at 6:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


TRUMP NOT ATTENDING RYAN EVENT IN WISCONSIN TOMORROW

Dear lord, I hope there's a book coming from someone who is in the room where it happens tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


Ryan is a little chicken shit. Someone get him to say whether he still endorses and plans to vote for Trump then either harangue Trump for it or hang that Trump rock around Ryan's neck.
posted by Talez at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


NYT is apparently about to report that a former Miss Utah says that Trump kissed her on the lips without her consent. I wonder if there's more coming.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


I hope Trump loses it completely and goes all Samson on the Republican leadership.
posted by Justinian at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's way too late to drop out, that's part of why it's an October surprise
posted by theodolite at 6:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Come on Trumpy, hang in there for two more weeks. You can do it!
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Orange is the New Cosby.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


The Intercept_ is quite excited about finally having those Goldman Sachs speeches!
posted by Going To Maine at 6:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


McCain statement:
There are no excuses for Donald Trump's offensive and demeaning comments. No woman should ever be victimized by this kind of inappropriate behavior. He alone bears the burden of his conduct and alone should suffer the consequences.
That last sentence... lol
posted by acidic at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [75 favorites]


I guess I was more right than I thought in the last thread.
posted by Brainy at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I'll continue to assume that anyone that doesn't actively withdraw their endorsement or ask him to drop out is automatically adding a silent "but I still support/endorse him for President."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


So Ryan is just going to show up and talk about starving grannies tomorrow?
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


I really hope we find out which furniture store Trump took Nancy O'Dell to, and I really hope that furniture store sells nothing that isn't gold plated.

I picture it as the one from the Martin Bashir interview of Michael Jackson where Michael just went around picking out giant gilded crystal statues of teddy bears and the like.
posted by sallybrown at 6:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dear lord, I hope there's a book coming from someone who is in the room where it happens tonight.

Fuck just getting a book. I want audio, video, a board game and many, many cosplay opportunities.

(Probably irrelevant but awesome cosplay all over Twitter today)
posted by maudlin at 6:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence completely ignores Trump statement in Ohio speech.

"Maybe if I pretend it doesn't exist it'll go away"
posted by Talez at 6:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


But for all my mixed terror and glee, I'm pissed off that this tape has killed the Central Park Five story. Latest from CNN archives (autoplaying video).
posted by maudlin at 6:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell, @Lawrence:
"The stupidest presidential candidate in history is now a confessed sex criminal."
posted by chris24 at 6:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


And Pence is dodging reporter questions on it too.
posted by Talez at 6:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence isn't even part of Team Trump at this point, he's just doing his own thing for 2020.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


RYAN: I am sickened by what I heard today. Women are to be championed and revered, not objectified.

FUCKING NO. Don't revere us. That's just the madonna side of the madonna/whore coin. Treat us as your EQUALS, which is what we FUCKING ARE.

GOD DAMMIT.
posted by tzikeh at 6:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [249 favorites]


If you google miss Utah 1997 Trump kiss, it was reported months ago that he kissed her on the lips without asking, twice.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maddow reminds everyone that the AP reported numerous examples of similar on set, on camera acts by Mr Trump during the filming of the Apprentice. So there is more video out there housed at Burnett productions. Probably sitting on hard drives.
posted by humanfont at 6:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey, everyone waiting on Clinton merch, I put an order in for some buttons and a lapel pin on the 30th, and got them today after only a week. So if you're waiting since forever, call or email them and see if they'll split the shipment up, coz it's probably just like one thing holding your stuff back.
posted by rifflesby at 6:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would like to publicly eat my words and say I was wrong and unfair in my opinion of evangelicals all this time.

A Declaration by American Evangelicals Concerning Donald Trump

Signed by almost 9k people in one day, sponsored by almost 100 evangelical leaders. It is beautifully written. All I can say is I was very wrong to generalize.
posted by Tarumba at 6:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [47 favorites]


Inspirational quotes about women from previous presidents next to Trump
posted by Talez at 6:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


What did ol' granny-starver say?
Women are to be championed and revered, not objectified.
You don't need to "champion" me, and please don't revere me. Please just treat me like a human being. Because that's what I am.
posted by sallybrown at 6:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [52 favorites]


The liar and coward Mike Pence will never be president.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


@chucktodd:
GOPers looked at the ballot rules on replacing Trump during the Khan meltdown. Bottom line: if he didn't vacate by Sept 1, they were stuck
posted by chris24 at 6:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


What's the over/under for when Trump will tweet next and what it will be?
posted by drezdn at 6:22 PM on October 7, 2016


With apologies to corb.
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


NYT is apparently about to report that a former Miss Utah says that Trump kissed her on the lips without her consent.

Between this and Romney and Jon Huntsman's comments and Egg McMuffin's potentially vote-splitting presence I wouldn't be surprised if Utah went to Clinton.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 30 YEARS MY VOTE MIGHT COUNT!
posted by mmoncur at 6:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


And Pence is dodging reporter questions on it too.

Footage of the question being asked from Matthew Nussbaum. Pence went llama_turns_head.gif with it.
posted by cashman at 6:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


What's the over/under for when Trump will tweet next and what it will be?

My prediction is that it will be in 2 hours, and it will say "Due to Hurricane Matthew, I will be unable to attend Sunday's Town Hall Debate."
posted by mmoncur at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Maddow reminds everyone that the AP reported numerous examples of similar on set, on camera acts by Mr Trump during the filming of the Apprentice. So there is more video out there housed at Burnett productions. Probably sitting on hard drives.

Sure sounds like evidence in one of the many sexual harassment lawsuits to me. Someone should subpoena those tapes.
posted by zachlipton at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


I would approve of being revered by Paul Ryan next time I beat him in a marathon.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kristof, NY Times, Trump forcing himself on a young woman in Ivanka's bedroom.
JILL HARTH’S first concern with Donald Trump’s hands wasn’t that they were small. It’s that they were everywhere. ...
posted by maudlin at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


The thing about this being the proverbial straw that breaks the camel’s back is that you can’t just take off that straw and call it good - you need to look back and say “Man, that was about ten too many pounds of straw in the first place.”
posted by Going To Maine at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [41 favorites]


CNN says reporters are gathering at Trump Tower. No word on whether he will meet them or issue a statement.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


From the evangelical leader statement:

" We believe the candidacy of Donald J. Trump has given voice to a movement that affirms racist elements in white culture—both explicit and implicit. Regardless of his recent retraction, Mr. Trump has spread racist “birther” falsehoods for five years trying to delegitimize and humiliate our first African-American president, characterizing him as “the other” and not a real American citizen. He uses fear to demonize and degrade immigrants, foreigners, and people from different racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds. He launched his presidential campaign by demonizing Mexicans, immigrants, and Muslims, and has repeatedly spoken against migrants and refugees coming to this country—those whom Jesus calls “the stranger” in Matthew 25, where he says that how we treat them is how we treat him. Trump has steadily refused to clearly and aggressively confront extremist voices and movements of white supremacy, some of whom now call him their “champion,” and has therefore helped to take the dangerous fringes of white nationalism in America to the mainstream of politics."


It made me tear up.
posted by Tarumba at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm calling for a total and complete shutdown of Donald Trump interacting with women until we can figure out what is going on

i know exactly what's going on - he has a small, orange cheeto for a dick and it's doing his thinking for him
posted by pyramid termite at 6:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


But Ryan's statement also says "I hope Mr. Trump[...] works to demonstrate to the country that he has greater respect for women than this clip suggests."

So Ryan is pretending that Trump actually does respect women.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


The (excellent) point that the many "like a dog" statements didn't make sense because they were more palatable translations from "like a bitch" is just chilling to me. That's absolutely it.
posted by sallybrown at 6:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


"Governor Pence, do you endorse *ahem* 'grabbing them in the...?'"
posted by drezdn at 6:28 PM on October 7, 2016


MSNBC says that Pence will be in Wisconsin while Trump does debate prep in New York.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:28 PM on October 7, 2016


How the shocking hot mic tape of Donald Trump was exposed
Contacted by CNNMoney on Friday, Farenthold declined to comment about how he obtained the tape.
But sources at NBC believe someone inside NBC downloaded the footage from one of the network's video servers. The tape was accessible internally since the "Access" story was already in the works.
posted by Talez at 6:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Dumb. They think they can hide him away and bring aged Ken doll out in his place? They should try and consult one of the few women working for them who isn't locked in a stall in a bathroom submitting her resume to other jobs right now over her smartphone.
posted by sallybrown at 6:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


A Declaration by American Evangelicals Concerning Donald Trump

Those seem to be largely progressive groups and congregations that wouldn't have endorsed Trump in the first place. I want this from the conservatives who have been engaging in hypocrisy and bigotry this entire time. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but I wouldn't start to give evangelicals credit just yet.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


About the linked statement from evangelicals - It is eloquent, but....I don't really see them actually discouraging people voting for Trump. A denunciation of his racism, sure, but no additional step of "so therefore, we cannot in good faith suggest people vote for him".

So in my book, it's a "almost, but not quite" kind of thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump, Groper in Chief

New York Times unloading with both barrels.
posted by Talez at 6:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Farenthold is live on MSNBC now.
posted by zachlipton at 6:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Awww, is Trump tired? Does he need to rest?
posted by drezdn at 6:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Farenthold on Maddow now. Says that he sent Trump's campaign a transcript of the tape, and asked for authenticity. They said it didn't sound like him. Then Farenthold sent the tape itself, and they confirmed it was him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


A Declaration by American Evangelicals Concerning Donald Trump

Those seem to be largely progressive groups and congregations that wouldn't have endorsed Trump in the first place. I want this from the conservatives who have been engaging in hypocrisy and bigotry this entire time. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but I wouldn't start to give evangelicals credit just yet.

No True Scotsmanning isn’t cool.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ryan's statement is just another version of the same statement every Republican has given today:

"Trump did a bad thing." [runs away]

Nothing further, no retractions, no dis-endorsements. They're all sticking by him to a man (or woman, we see you, Kelly Ayotte).

So no, not even this. Except for the few you can count on one hand, Sasse, Flake, and ____?, Republicans are not disavowing Trump at all, even now. They're still holding a Supreme Court seat open for him as we speak. Nothing will get them to back down now, and we should never forget it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Says that he sent Trump's campaign a transcript of the tape, and asked for authenticity. They said it didn't sound like him.

But it felt like him.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Coincidentally, I am in the middle of writing a policy for my institution regarding acceptable content for student art work. I am proposing a very progressive policy - we want students exposed to works of enduring cultural, artistic, social and historical importance. We also want our students to be able to develop their own voices. However, we want them to learn the difference between gratuitous content and artistically relevant content.

So in the middle of writing this, I take a lunch break and watch the latest Trump video.

I know for a fact that if one of our students made a short video using the language Trump uses there, not only would that student's parents be pissed off, our whole community would lose its mind. It would be considered beyond the pale.

On the other hand, I also know that a chunk of our parents are Trump supporters who are now going to spend some time vigorously defending Trump's right to be Trump. These are largely the same parents who would be the most enraged if somebody else's son said this stuff (if their son said this stuff, it would be hilarious boys-will-be-boys shit in their minds).

But, you know, what do you tell a 17 year old boy when he says dumb, vulgar shit when he can turn around and say "well, a candidate for president said that - why can't I?" All you can say is "true, but we have higher standards for behavior than that particular political candidate." The same thing has been true of the racist shit. Kid, you can't say that in school because we have higher standards than that particular political candidate.

So anyhow, I'm trying to craft this policy and I'm thinking to myself "for years, the right wing has been going after we artists for lowering standards and now they walk into the crystal standards palace and are swinging around with a sledge hammer."

Bast-the-cat-headed-goddess as my witness, I wonder what shared social boundaries and behaviors are going to be left standing in place in a year's time. Trump has gotten the word "pussy" on the nightly news and people are some conservatives are defending it. Somebody tell me again why it should matter to anyone if a kid says "shit" while doing a Mamet scene in acting class.

Seriously, what the fuck.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [74 favorites]


Dumb. They think they can hide him away and bring aged Ken doll out in his place? They should try and consult one of the few women working for them who isn't locked in a stall in a bathroom submitting her resume to other jobs right now over her smartphone.

I think it's probably a compromise because Trump is refusing to address it in any way that might be helpful.
I imagine him refusing to do the humble apology thing. (not that I think it would work)
He won't think he did anything wrong. It's only a problem because it got caught on tape.
posted by Jalliah at 6:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump Tried to Fire Nancy O'Dell After She Rejected His Sexual Advances

Less than two years after a female journalist supposedly rebuffed Donald Trump’s sexual advances—as heard on newly discovered video—he allegedly tried to have her fired from one of his beauty pageants.

posted by sporkwort at 6:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Whether we support Mr. Trump’s political opponent is not the question here. Hillary Clinton is both supported and distrusted by a variety of Christian voters. We, undersigned evangelicals, simply will not tolerate the racial, religious, and gender bigotry that Donald Trump has consistently and deliberately fueled, no matter how else we choose to vote or not to vote."

I interpret that as saying they cannot in good faith vote for Trump.
posted by Tarumba at 6:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


We're going to find out that Owen Ellickson's stuff is just straight transcripts.
posted by drezdn at 6:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I am gorging myself on the world's finest popcorn, seasoned liberally with a demagogue's tears. I think the dam has finally broken. He's past the point of no return.

I won't be surprised if he bails out on Sunday's debate – or even if he withdraws from the race. (Honestly, I had already been wondering if he'd withdraw – Trump can't stand being a loser, and if his poll numbers get bad enough, withdrawing at least lets him take his ball and go home.)

I subscribed to the Washington Post this evening, as a thank-you for the amazing investigate journalism they've done over the last few months. If you are able to, please consider doing the same.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Maddow takes a deep breath and a beat before going to commercial, then says: "You're awake, by the way. You're not having a terrible terrible dream. Also you're not dead, and you haven't gone to tell. This is us now. This is our country. It's real."
posted by zachlipton at 6:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


"I'm your top prime cut of meat, I'm your choice
I wanna be elected"
posted by pyramid termite at 6:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Little Marco's turn.
Donald's comments were vulgar, egregious & impossible to justify.
No one should ever talk about any woman in those terms, even in private.
"Donald was bad but I don't pull my support or my vote" #4.
posted by Talez at 6:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Rubio:
Donald's comments were vulgar, egregious & impossible to justify. No one should ever talk about any woman in those terms, even in private.
"even in private"? WTF? "even in private, the place where we usually go to say bad things about women"?
posted by sallybrown at 6:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


Glad I invested in those popcorn futures.
posted by drezdn at 6:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


While I am delighted -- DELIGHTED -- that this might be the end of any hope of Trump winning the presidency, I'm pretty pissed that the general narrative on this* is that it is such a surprise. "How could anyone have known?!" "I would have never supported him if I'd known that he thought women only existed for his sexual pleasure." "Who could have guessed that Trump would just take what he wanted?" "This is so terrible and beyond the pale."

Yeah, in what world is this news? Oh, yes. It's news in the world in which only men count. The world in which "we" are only concerned about women when "we" have daughters. The world in which it matters only when there is no way to deny it. The world in which "we" haven't had our breasts oogled, our asses grabbed, and our worth rated based on the hardness of some stranger's dick. The world in which "we" is assumed to mean "those of us who are men" (and, really, straight, cis, white men).

I don't know about you, but Trump looks like hundreds of other men I've had the misfortune to encounter on the street, at work, in school and online.

Guess what? As the recent ad from Clinton says "Mr. Trump, women are going to be the reason you're not elected to be president."

*not by metafilter, of course
posted by mcduff at 6:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [62 favorites]


NYT: RNC is meeting to discuss options if Trump is not the nominee (scroll on MSNBC, no link yet)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's fitting for 2016 and its general mindfuck shtick that the biggest October Surprise is no surprise at all.

And if this all goes to hell because Trump bales and the election collapses and the SC is 50:50 due to Rep obstructionalism... I shall wave my tackle out over the battlements of Edinburgh Castle while singing the Battle Hymn Of The Republic, because what else is a sane man supposed to do?

(Fishing tackle. I'm not a bad man.)
posted by Devonian at 6:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


All of the Republican leadership whenever they go near a reporter need to be asked "Where is the line where you stop supporting Trump? How terrible does a candidate need to be before you support country over party?"
posted by Talez at 6:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Fox News/Kelly straight up only talking Wikileaks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rachel Maddow is about to interview a reporter who says RNC leadership is meeting in DC about options in case Trump isn't the nominee.
posted by xyzzy at 6:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


How the hell are these Republicans so bad at putting out statements? Trump blames Bill Clinton and gives a "I apologize if anyone was offended" non-apology that just makes things worse; McCain doesn't want us to blame him in any way; Ryan says women are to be "revered, not objectified" as if that's not a completely messed up thing to say; Rubio feels compelled to tack on "even in private." These are prepared written statements. Why are they so terrible?
posted by zachlipton at 6:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


The same group that raised money for Pepe the frog billboards recently raised money to release video of a younger President Obama in Kenya - something they positioned as a "gotcha" - but in fact is a great capture of an interesting, nuanced discussion of culture and race in two very different countries and Obama's role in his extended family (as long as you ignore the source and title, the film itself is not at all gross to watch). The context of the video is disgusting and I really still just don't get how different groups of people can see the same video SO differently.

Apologies if this has already been posted, I don't even know how to search anymore.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]




@Yamiche Source tells me RNC officials are meeting in DC to discuss what options the party has going forward in case Trump isn't nominee.
posted by Jalliah at 6:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Fox News/Kelly straight up only talking Wikileaks.

And they bitch about liberals and their safe spaces.
posted by Talez at 6:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


If Trump were to drop out (though as far as I know they can't take his name off the ballot), I would be willing to bet the hardcore Trump supporters wouldn't vote or would vote third party.
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


No True Scotsmanning isn’t cool.

That's...not what I'm doing. Here's a sampling of the signatories:

Progressive National Baptist Convention
Jesus for Revolutionaries
Gravity, a Center for Contemplative Activism
Evangelicals for Social Action
The Resist Daily
Oglala Lakota

These don't exactly sound like folks who would be gung-ho for Trump in the first place.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


How dare the RNC consider letting this be the final straw, after all the other horrendous things he has said and done.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [33 favorites]




NYT: RNC is meeting to discuss options if Trump is not the nominee

I'd swear this is their fourth meeting about this.
posted by drezdn at 6:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Thank fucking God it is Friday. Can you imagine going in to work tomorrow morning? I'm not even drinking and I'm going to have a schadenfreude hangover.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


"Whether we support Mr. Trump’s political opponent is not the question here. Hillary Clinton is both supported and distrusted by a variety of Christian voters. We, undersigned evangelicals, simply will not tolerate the racial, religious, and gender bigotry that Donald Trump has consistently and deliberately fueled, no matter how else we choose to vote or not to vote."

I interpret that as saying they cannot in good faith vote for Trump.

I want them to spell it out in no uncertain terms, in black and white, in plain language. Because there are parishioners who need to have it spelled out for them in order for them to actually understand what it is they are saying.

I want there to be absolutely no question in anyone's mind, even the most ardent Trump supporter's, that they are denouncing him. That statement can be easily reinterpreted by the Trump faithful as "i mean, you can VOTE for him still, just as long as you pinky-swear promise to feel bad about the racism, okay?"

I want a completely clear, 100% iron-clad statement that "yes, we are indeed saying that we denounce the idea of this man being president."

You will note that I said that I categorize this as "almost, but not quite", though - meaning that I applaud the denunciation of racism. I'm just wishing there were another denunciation that came with it, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


NYT: RNC is meeting to discuss options if Trump is not the nominee

Oh god that will be the perfect storm of clusterfuck. Faithless electors, ballot deadlines, bound-by-law electors, circuit splits, supreme court deadlocks. It's like someone writing the screenplay wondered "how could I make this more of a shitshow?".

Maybe we really are living in a simulation.
posted by Justinian at 6:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Holy fucking shit. Lawrence O'Donnell is pissed.
Hey @realDonaldTrump send one of your lawyers to @TheLastWord 10pm to explain why you're not now an admitted sex criminal. If they can.
posted by Talez at 6:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


How dare the RNC consider letting this be the final straw, after all the other horrendous things he has said and done.

Something that anyone with eyes knew already, not even the "Oh, Putin is a member of his campaign staff" stuff.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's like the opposite of a No True Scotsman to point out that there a lot of evangelicals who are not conservative and that if you think this represents a serious shift for evangelicals in the US, it's probably because you were lumping them all together already. Progressive evangelicals were always anti-racism and anti-exploitation and basically anti-everything-Trump-stands-for, but they aren't the ones with political power in this country. What they're doing is trying to use this to bring more moderate evangelicals into the fold, I think, to try to break down the power of the conservatives.
posted by Sequence at 6:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Jesus. This is stressful. Could someone who is calmer than I tell me what would happen if he was not the nominee?
posted by Sophie1 at 6:46 PM on October 7, 2016


Nobody knows, that's why it would be a Constitutional crisis.
posted by Justinian at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


NYT: RNC is meeting to discuss options if Trump is not the nominee

Fuck those fucking fucks. They should have done that months ago. Uncharitably, I think they're scheming how they can ratfuck the US populace and install a stooge of their choice in the White House through lawsuits and deadlocked court battles.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


I mean, he will be on the ballot.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2016


Only marginally related: does anyone have a good roundup of WaPo's trump reporting vs others? I have a vague idea that they're substantially better than others but I'd like to have something more solid.
posted by Skorgu at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2016


As far as I know, the best the Republicans could do right now is say "Vote for Trump, but he won't serve, Pence and X will." Voting has already begun in some places.
posted by drezdn at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2016


You can't just call off or try to postpone a national election because your candidate's an evil fuck. Can you? Can you? This stresses me out.
posted by mynameisluka at 6:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fuck those fucking fucks. They should have done that months ago. Uncharitably, I think they're scheming how they can ratfuck the US populace and install a stooge of their choice in the White House through lawsuits and deadlocked court battles.

They're just panicking. They can't do it. There's no way forward that makes any sense. They're stuck with Trump and they're going down with the ship.
posted by dis_integration at 6:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


That would require Trump to step down after sworn in as President. Why would he do that?
posted by Justinian at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Traditionally, switching horses mid-stream has led to that party losing that year (The example I can think of is the Dems switching VP nominees in '68)
posted by drezdn at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Only marginally related: does anyone have a good roundup of WaPo's trump reporting vs others? I have a vague idea that they're substantially better than others but I'd like to have something more solid.

Every morning I get an article shitting on Trump in my inbox. Nobody else gives me that.
posted by Talez at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Religious leaders shouldn't tell people who to vote or not vote for- they should advise on issues and ideals, and then let the message work how it may. Who likes being explicitly told what to do, anyway? Aim to persuade.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Vote for Trump anyway, and trust that he's totally going to step aside and let someone else be president even if he's elected. Because he's totally trustworthy like that.
posted by Sequence at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Three things:

First, this is only a giant deal now because we have audio and because we didn't believe or care about more than a dozen women who have spoken up publicly to talk about occasions where Trump did anything from rape them to unwanted physical contact to unwanted advances, some of them under oath. We're suddenly shocked, shocked by this; this should not be a surprise. Why is this the last straw and not every woman who has come forward with their Trump story?

Second, assuming the endgame of all this is Hillary Clinton being sworn in in January, I swear people are going to use this to argue that Clinton isn't the real president and we don't have to care about her agenda because she didn't win it "for real" because her opponent is terrible.

Third, and least important, was Farenthold just wearing a suit and tie on MSNBC and now he's not on CNN?
posted by zachlipton at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


From the NYT "Groper in Chief" article:

“I was admiring the decoration, and next thing I know he’s pushing me against a wall and has his hands all over me,” Harth told me. “He was trying to kiss me. I was freaking out.” Harth says she was desperately protesting, and finally managed to run out of the room and find the group again. She and Houraney left rather than stay the night, as they had intended.

Some of the calendar girls stayed, and the sexual harassment lawsuit says Trump showed up uninvited in the predawn hours in the bedroom of one of the young women; she kicked him out but was shaken. When contacted, the woman declined to speak about the experience, and I’m not naming her here.
posted by petebest at 6:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Jesus. This is stressful. Could someone who is calmer than I tell me what would happen if he was not the nominee?

As far as I know, the best the Republicans could do right now is say "Vote for Trump, but he won't serve, Pence and X will." Voting has already begun in some places.

Yes, the ballots are locked in too many states to fix it. They would have to try to power through with "vote for him anyway and we'll fix it later," which would be a tough sell.
posted by gerryblog at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016


@Yamiche Source tells me RNC officials are meeting in DC to discuss what options the party has going forward in case Trump isn't nominee.

She's on the phone now on Rachel Maddow clarifying the meeting is more about "if Trump voluntarily steps down," not about removing him or asking him to step down.
posted by dnash at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


They can't force Trump out. They threatened him before during the Khan Family fight but he just reminded them that he was the one bringing in millions. Now with one month to go they are screwed. I don't think he is going to quit. He has been living in a bubble where he thinks his big rallies are signs of massive support and the polls are only right when they show him ahead. He will weather this because he is brazen. He's had plenty of experience. For all we know he is going to be tweeting tonight about how Nancy O'Dell was a slut and not worth his time and Bill Clinton told him all about the pussy he got in the White House.

He will eventually lose badly but there will be plenty more fireworks before November 8.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


That would require Trump to step down after sworn in as President. Why would he do that?

Or impeach. Wouldn't it be glorious if the Ds didn't play along with that plan?
posted by Talez at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016


NYT: RNC is meeting to discuss options if Trump is not the nominee

Reporter on Maddow saying it's not the RNC kicking him out it's that they're trying figure out what would happen if Trump steps down himself. RNC can't do it.
posted by Jalliah at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jesus. This is stressful. Could someone who is calmer than I tell me what would happen if he was not the nominee?

I don't see a replacement, e.g. Pence, getting anywhere near a plurality, so we don't have to worry about a 4-4 Supreme Court split on it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:50 PM on October 7, 2016


Megyn Kelly now offering a tour of the 20 past years of Fox News.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


"because you were lumping them all together already. "

Yes, that is what my mea culpa was about, I had no idea there was such a thing as a progressive evangelical and now that I know my world is a little brighter.
posted by Tarumba at 6:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Nevermind. RNC is in discussions if he voluntarily steps down, but I think there's almost zero chance of that. Per Yamiche Alcindor
posted by Sophie1 at 6:52 PM on October 7, 2016


My fantasy, Trump steps down at like 9:00pm on November 7th. Because then he can claim YOU CANT FIRE ME, I QUIT.
posted by Justinian at 6:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


About the only plan the RNC has available is "write it off as the gas leak year"
posted by jason_steakums at 6:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


I kind of wonder if Reince hasn't booted him earlier because Trump seems like just the sort to start airing any little piece of Republican dirty laundry he has (like how he talked about how other nominees "begged" him for donations).
posted by drezdn at 6:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


New Trump campaign slogan: Win one for the Gropper.
posted by humanfont at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Another prediction from that sick part of my brain that keeps imagining Trump's behavior:

Sometime in the next 24 hours he'll say something negative about Nancy O'Dell to double down on his original bad behavior. He'll blame her for this mess he's in.
posted by mmoncur at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


One good thing about this being what sinks Trump's campaign (if it does) is that the deplorables can claim all they want that Clinton didn't "win fair" but it's not the same as "this was a rigged election." The latter is much more likely to come with gunfire.
posted by papercake at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


If you're a dude that has no problem with what's just come out about Trump on that tape I *guarantee* you several of the women in your life have problems with you they are afraid to bring up.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [70 favorites]


I'm pretty pissed that the general narrative on this* is that it is such a surprise.

YES THIS.

Every woman on this thread has likely had that creeper feeling just from looking at him. He runs beauty pageants, he makes passes at journalists interviewing him, he is fucking weird about his own daughter, he cheated on two wives and traded "up" for a younger model twice. He's that guy you don't sit next to when the office goes out for drinks, or share a cab with afterwards.

If anyone had asked me if Trump was the kind of guy who would say that shit and do that shit, if he would lay hands on someone without her consent, or worse -- I would have had no hesitation in saying yes.

That the Harth lawsuit didn't get any traction in the political press, I assumed, was because nobody fucking cared. Because this behavior was banal and acceptable in the world of national politics.
posted by suelac at 6:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [84 favorites]


From the Washington Post, the flash, apparently official, "Grab them by the pussy."

Donald Trump's 2016 campaign died at 5 p.m. Central Daylight Time.

*removes glasses, glances up at clock*

6 o'clock Eastern Daylight Time, some . . . four hours ago. Thank G-d.
posted by petebest at 6:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


From the Groper-in-Chief article:

"He took an intense interest in the calendar girls, pursuing some and rejecting others, Harth says, adding that he had an aversion to black contestants and made derogatory comments about them."
posted by chris24 at 6:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wayne Larrivee: And there's your dagger.
posted by drezdn at 6:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


When is Trump's next court date re: rape case?

I think it's in a few days. I wonder how that will go.
posted by Tarumba at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Let's not get too ahead of ourselves, there's 31 days left.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well my feeds are finally starting to slow down. Holy shit was that a crazy 5 hours. And there's still more insanity to come!
posted by Talez at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2016


A big worry now is desperation... James O'Keefe trying to gin up any sort of scandal or the Alt-Right trying to bring violence.
posted by drezdn at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


haha hey remember when Herman Cain the Pokemon movie quoting pizza president was the height of RNC craziness
posted by jason_steakums at 7:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [32 favorites]


Don Lemon on CNN: "The language you're about to hear is repugnant and offensive. But you need to hear it. For. Yourself." (replays tape)
posted by petebest at 7:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


That the Harth lawsuit didn't get any traction in the political press, I assumed, was because nobody fucking cared. Because this behavior was banal and acceptable in the world of national politics.

The strange thing is that the story seemed so familiar to me when I was reading it in the NYTimes that I had to check to make sure it wasn't from months ago. I've definitely read that story at some point since the primaries.

He was telling us a long time ago who he was and we should have believed him. The amount of pervy shit that has been reported about him prior to tonight is astonishing, remember him talking about watching super models getting fucked? Yet nothing stuck to teflon Don. I'm still not 100% convinced that this will stick. Fortunately time is running out on him and he will never bounce back. He made this about personality over policy and by god does his personality suck.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


We'll always have UZbecky-becky-beckistan.
posted by drezdn at 7:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump's campaign says that he will be at the Sunday debate.
posted by maudlin at 7:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


haha hey remember when Herman Cain the Pokemon movie quoting pizza president was the height of RNC craziness

Brother, my brother tell me, what are we fighting for? We've got to end this war
posted by Talez at 7:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


So I'm on vacation with my mom and last time I checked in this news was just breaking and i turned to mom and was like "uh, big fucking surprise, he's a garbage person, let's go to dinner." Now we're back at the rental and this is the surely this, for real? This thing that anyone paying attention already knew about him, that he's a skeevy womanizer who has sexually assaulted a series of women? Man, I thought everyone knew, they just didn't care. Because boys will be boys, amirite?
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is FUCKING SAVAGE right now.
posted by Talez at 7:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lawerence O'Donnell calling Trump a sex criminal and that he has confessed to committing crimes.
posted by Jalliah at 7:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is FUCKING SAVAGE right now.

I heard him say half a sentence and was 'oh hell I need to record this.'
posted by Jalliah at 7:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's twitter has now been dark for 23 hours. I wonder how many Steves it is taking to keep him away from his phone.
posted by mmoncur at 7:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


@AlbertBrooks:
"Breaking News: Tic Tacs release statement to Trump. "Please keep us out of your goddamn mouth"."

[real tweet, fake statement]
posted by chris24 at 7:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


14.5 Steves and 1.8 Megamerediths.
posted by uosuaq at 7:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trying to go to bed here, but I'm having trouble integrating the events of the evening.

For example, I didn't realise 'Check out sex tape' was such a perfect Trump Mirrorism. We come up with this stuff, but do we really believe it?
posted by Devonian at 7:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


NYT "Groper In Chief" again:

That year, Harth continued to meet Trump for business — and, she says, he continued to try to jump her. “He’d say, ‘Let’s go in my room, I want to lie down,’ and he’d pull me along. I’d say, ‘I don’t want to lie down,’ and it would turn into a wrestling match. … I remember yelling, ‘I didn’t come here for this.’ He’d say, ‘Just calm down.’”


Orange is, in fact, The New Cosby.
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]



O'Donnell : After savaging what he said line by line and saying this is about battery and sex crimes. "Okay now here is the tape. This is the worst October Surprise that any campaign ever has suffered'
posted by Jalliah at 7:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Y'all, I'm several hours behind in reading the thread and am catching up as fast as I can, but I just needed to jump to the end and offer hugs for anyone who wants them - and ask for some of my own.

On the one hand, I'm reveling in the schadenfreude, and I haven't been able to step away from the news for hours now. But every time I hear this tape played, I just feel a little more disgusted and degraded and depressed, and I can't believe I'm the only woman who feels this way.

At this point, it's not even Trump I'm grossed out by. He's a disgusting predator, no question. But what makes me queasy is the toadying laughter from Billy Fucking Bush, laughing along and agreeing like it's just two boys being boys. Billy is the face I fear hides behind most of the guys I meet. Maybe it's not fair, but there it is. I've been moved to tears by the men on the news tonight who are obviously appalled by the whole thing and realize it for the example of rape culture that it is - but I'm also sickened by my own reaction of being 1) distrustful that most men are more like Billy, and 2) pathetically grateful when men show they aren't.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to hurt any of the men here. I trust you, otherwise I wouldn't say this in this space. But I just feel so sick inside.

So whether you're the type of woman who creeps like Trump would prey on, or whether you're (like me) one of the great mass of invisible women who would not even be worthy of consideration, I want to stand with you in solidarity, because this hurts all of us. And I want to stand in solidarity too with the men of MeFi who have been fighting the good fight.
posted by Salieri at 7:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [134 favorites]


I wonder how many Steves it is taking to keep him away from his phone.

All of them, Katie. (AOT,K)
posted by drezdn at 7:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


John Mcain ripped him a new one, good for him. SO is this it, at last? Is this the final unravel? He won't drop out and if he stays in, he'll flip out worse and worse, could get so ugly and gross.
posted by vrakatar at 7:13 PM on October 7, 2016


In the end, will the right add the Trump campaign to their trumped up "Clinton death list?"
posted by drezdn at 7:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The strange thing is that the story seemed so familiar to me when I was reading it in the NYTimes that I had to check to make sure it wasn't from months ago. I've definitely read that story at some point since the primaries.

Guardian published an interview with Harth in July, after Donald and Ivanka had both attacked her in media.

Related: "This is precisely the claim my client @jillharth made in 2007 in her sexual harassment case against Trump. I call this corroboration."
posted by effbot at 7:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell reading Donald's fake apology, getting choked up on the 'IF anyone was offended'.

"That is the apology of a snake"

Seriously, good tip to record it. O'Donnell is marking it, Dude.
posted by petebest at 7:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


That monologue was utterly fucking savage.
posted by Talez at 7:14 PM on October 7, 2016


Billy is the face I fear hides behind most of the guys I meet.

When I leave a room - whether a boardroom or a bedroom - a little part of me wonders...what does he say about me, when I'm not there?
posted by sallybrown at 7:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


soren_lorensen: this is the surely this, for real? This thing that anyone paying attention already knew about him, that he's a skeevy womanizer who has sexually assaulted a series of women?

No one ever believes women about sexual assaults until a man speaks up. This is just the sickest version of that fact playing out.
posted by tzikeh at 7:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [57 favorites]


As I kid, I learned what oral sex was because of Bill Clinton. I mean that literally; I was in elementary school and all this stuff was in the news and I read the Starr Report and there were a number of awkward conversations. And as a result of that, I learned that this was a thing people could do. And I bring that up now because a new generation is going to have another round of awkward discussions about why a man polling around 43% for the Presidency is on TV talking about grabbing women by their genitals.

But then I read @kellyoxford's tweet, as linked by sallybrown here, and started forcing myself to scroll through the many, many replies. And it clicked for me that there are entirely too many young women who won't have to have that conversation with their parents because they already know personally exactly what Donald Trump was talking about on that tape; they've already experienced it. I knew that intellectually of course, but here it is, story after story, and they're all being told tonight because of Trump.

And I wish I could wrap that all up with something pithy or humorous or whatever, but my screen is full of an endless scroll of women talking about being groped and assaulted when they were around 12 years old and that a man who's polling at 43% is in exactly the same category as the disgusting human beings who assaulted them, and there's absolutely nothing I can say. I'm going to drink and listen to Cecile Richards's and Lawrence O'Donnell's moral indignation.
posted by zachlipton at 7:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


Trump's shocking crude comments on women leave him reeling
Trump's running mate, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, was "beside himself" and his wife was furious, according to a person familiar with their thinking. That person spoke on the condition of anonymity, because they were not authorized to share the private discussion.
Holy shit. Karen Pence always seemed to be more of the stand up person than her husband. This really confirms it.
posted by Talez at 7:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sorry, have been fomenting civil war in Republican house again. RNC has been sitting on requests from RNC members to pull Trump but we didn't have enough and needed a few signatures. Looks like we got them.

I'm playing the Reynolds Pamphlet nonstop in my house right now.
posted by corb at 7:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [88 favorites]


Utah governor Gary Herbert just withdrew his endorsement of Trump. He says he can't vote for either candidate.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


When I leave a room - whether a boardroom or a bedroom - a little part of me wonders...what does he say about me, when I'm not there?

ime they're crying and raising bloodwards to prevent me from visiting further horrors upon them
posted by poffin boffin at 7:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]



Oh man. O'Donnell is going to have Ken Burns on later. So glad I'm recording.
posted by Jalliah at 7:18 PM on October 7, 2016


The one thing I miss more than anything about Herman Cain, was Conan O'Brien's peanut players doing Herman Cain stories.
posted by drezdn at 7:18 PM on October 7, 2016


Thank you, effbot. That's the interview I read.

AP Trump's shocking crude comments on women leave him reeling
Trump's running mate, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, was "beside himself" and his wife was furious, according to a person familiar with their thinking. That person spoke on the condition of anonymity, because they were not authorized to share the private discussion.

In public, Pence ignored questions shouted by reporters in Rossford, Ohio, where he was campaigning with his daughter.
I wondered how the Pences would be taking this revelation, after all Mike Pence has been presenting himself to the nation as a clean Christian Family man. This association with Trump is bound to tarnish his image. That's the price he pays for being greedy and snatching at the offer of VP without reflecting on the guy offering it to him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


The statements from Republican leadership are still coming. The wheels are coming off the Trump Train.
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on October 7, 2016


@justinjm1:
"Very easy: GOP outrage is in proportion to # of voters they may lose. Blacks? Zero. Hispanics? More. Women? Code Red"

White women more accurately.
posted by chris24 at 7:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


corb - They are going to try and yank him from the ticket???
posted by sallybrown at 7:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


GOP: We Have a Plan, Let's Do This
Shortly after Reince Priebus released his statement tonight there was a veritable flood of statements released from various GOP officeholders currently running for reelection. They were all some version of 'this is indefensible, this is unacceptable' with some customization left to the individual politician's sensibilities. And then no more.

In other words, no defections or recantations of support. The timing of the statements strongly suggests that they were released after some high level conference call or decision making. But the general plan seems clear: Say it's deplorable and then hunker down.
Anyone who issues a chickenshit statement without withdrawing their endorsement should be asked about this every day until the election.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [59 favorites]


Trump's running mate, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, was "beside himself"

bet you all of Trump's fake monopoly money empire that Pence has been forced to listen to 3493894334 "and then I nailed her" war stories already in this campaign.
posted by sallybrown at 7:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Not going to link to it, but Wikileaks refers to one of the Clinton excerpts as a "private Jewish speech." At this point I'm kind of surprised they're not referring to it as "Skypeish."
posted by zombieflanders at 7:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Salieri: the toadying laughter from Billy Fucking Bush, laughing along and agreeing like it's just two boys being boys

As noted upthread (thanks!), Billy Bush's Facebook page has been getting hammered ever since this broke. A few "boys will be boys" but oh, so many people pointing exactly this out: "Enabler," "You're just as bad as he is," "Shame on you for just laughing," "I thought you were Christian," etc. No signs of it stopping yet. (Why yes, I have been refreshing it every few minutes.)
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


CLINTON/WELD 2020!
posted by vrakatar at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just want to point out, because I haven't seen it yet in the thread (which I haven't caught up on yet), that last I knew, there is a pretrial conference scheduled for the 14th regarding the allegations that Trump raped a 13-year-old.

Trump would not have to physically be present for the conference, just his lawyers, but it's obviously not going to be a good look for someone who's just been caught on tape admitting to sexual assault.

The deadline to submit the reports for the Trump Foundation stuff to the State of New York will happen shortly thereafter. (if it was 15 calendar days from when we first heard about it, the deadline would be the 18th)

Third debate on the 19th; Trump University trial begins on November 28.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Nobody can be allowed to put this behind them. Not Chris Christie, not Paul Ryan, not Mike Pence, and not Ted Cruz. The Trump stain doesn't come off.
posted by Justinian at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [62 favorites]


Sorry, republicans, you broke it, you bought it. You don't get to pretend now that you had no idea what he was.

Trump should be hung around the neck of every republican who hasn't actively disavowed him forever like a dead chicken around the neck of a dog that killed one.*

*don't do this to dogs, unlike people they don't know any better
posted by winna at 7:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


John Kasich must feel pretty good about himself right about now, too.
posted by Justinian at 7:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


Katy Tur reporting one source in the Trump campaign said "we have our own hurricane going on right now."
posted by zachlipton at 7:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


More calls for withdrawal.

@GovernorPataki:
I'm horrified by #TrumpTape news. @realDonaldTrump campaign is a poisonous mix of bigotry & ignorance. Enough! He needs to step down.
posted by chris24 at 7:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


bet you all of Trump's fake monopoly money empire that Pence has been forced to listen to 3493894334 "and then I nailed her" war stories already in this campaign.

Are they ever together though? I stand by my belief that Pence is kept where he can plausible deniability.
posted by drezdn at 7:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]



I wish I was fly on the wall in the Hillary campaign.
posted by Jalliah at 7:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Corb - what does that mean? RNC cutting Trump loose?
posted by Devonian at 7:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


The statements from Republican leadership are still coming.

But only a very few are actually withdrawing their support.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]



John Kasich must feel pretty good about himself right about now, too.

Ted Cruz is having a terrible, horrible, no good day. (How much longer would he have had to held out- a week?)
posted by drezdn at 7:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


CNN reports calls for Donnie to shut the fuck up coming in rapidly.
posted by vrakatar at 7:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


The deadline to submit the reports for the Trump Foundation stuff to the State of New York will happen shortly thereafter. (if it was 15 calendar days from when we first heard about it, the deadline would be the 18th)

Third debate on the 19th; Trump University trial begins on November 28.

Jesus. His house of cards is about to topple.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


Apparently the Washington State GOP chairwoman says it's ok because he was a Democrat at the time. WTF
posted by drezdn at 7:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Come on littlehands, take back your twitter account and be the candidate your party deserves.
posted by Skorgu at 7:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ted Cruz is having a terrible, horrible, no good day. (How much longer would he have had to held out- a week?)

Yeah, Ted Cruz didn't even get 30 pieces of silver.
posted by Justinian at 7:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Sorry, have been fomenting civil war in Republican house again. RNC has been sitting on requests from RNC members to pull Trump but we didn't have enough and needed a few signatures. Looks like we got them.

Good luck to you, corb, though in Trump's M.O., if it looks like the shit is going to hit the fan, he makes sure that everyone in proximity to him will get splattered unless he's allowed to walk away.

Just want to point out, because I haven't seen it yet in the thread (which I haven't caught up on yet), that last I knew, there is a pretrial conference scheduled for the 14th regarding the allegations that Trump raped a 13-year-old.

Will someone please pick up that phone, because back in September, I kinda called it!
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have a feeling a lot of editors and interns are going to have a very late night looking through raw tape archives.
posted by Talez at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Apparently the Washington State GOP chairwoman says it's ok because he was a Democrat at the time. WTF

IOKIYARWWADATT
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


They're stuck with Trump and they're going down with the ship.

GLUB... GLUB... GLUB...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016


Mitch McConnell has called for Trump to "apologize directly to women and girls everywhere."

Well that will surely be enough. Problem solved.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Two things to keep in mind... This wasn't from the Clinton campaign, so it's entirely possible they have other traps to spring soon.

Secondly, this footage was found after talk about how things were backstage at the Apprentice, I bet everyone is going through any extra tape they have of Donald looking for this sort of thing now.
posted by drezdn at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


I want him sued into poverty. Not bullshit rich-man's bankruptcy; abject poverty. I want all of the women who were ever assaulted/raped by him to tear Trump Incorporated apart. I want him and his entire vile family to have to rely on welfare. I want them to have to sell everything down to the copper pipes and wires in the walls in order to pay punitive damages. I want this to be IT for men turning a blind eye to the men who do this. Burn it all down.
posted by tzikeh at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [101 favorites]


Clinton email:

The general election is a choice between the potential first female president and a guy who says, and I quote, (and I'm sorry), "grab them by the p**sy."

Do something with that sick-to-your-stomach feeling, (name). Chip in right now.

If you've saved your payment information with ActBlue Express, your donation will go through immediately:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's campaign says that he will be at the Sunday debate.

Presumably Best Bar In The World near me is going to be screening the debate again and my God it shall be glorious and I will be SO there
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


New Sunday night debate fantasy: Hillary walks out wearing her trademark pantsuit...with a jockstrap on the outside.
posted by uosuaq at 7:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


YES! LAWRENCE O'DONNELL GUEST: "You don't have to know a woman to think this is unacceptable".
posted by Talez at 7:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


The classic Donald play here would be 3 am tweet attacking O'Dell.
posted by drezdn at 7:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


@TedCruz: Every wife, mother, daughter -- every person -- deserves to be treated with dignity and respect.

Also: These comments are disturbing and inappropriate, there is simply no excuse for them.

Still endorsing though.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Cut Melania some slack for not condemning #GrabHerByThePussy. FLOTUS has never given such a statement, so she's drafting from scratch." --@TalesDarkSide
posted by zachlipton at 7:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Am I wrong to assume that this is Clinton opposition research leaked to a friendly reporter just in time for the second debate?

Maybe. Though I should say that I'm personally very familiar with the NBC/U archival system, and that it seems just as likely to me that this just took this long to finally bubble up (and I also shared an office a year ago with the woman who had the archival research job on their Trump special they were putting together, and she definitely never found this, so it was pretty deep in their archives.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


For example, I didn't realise 'Check out sex tape' was such a perfect Trump Mirrorism. We come up with this stuff, but do we really believe it?

Yes, I've been meaning to post this for a few days, but after seeing Trump's obvious obsession with the supposed sex tape, in light of Trump's Mirror I think we can say that it is more likely than not that Trump himself has a sex tape that he is worried about.

"Worried about" meaning that there is at least some chance that it could be released--i.e., it's in the hands of another person.

The several Playboy videos that Trump was in are close. And this tape is even closer. But I don't think he would be so obsessive about other people's (nonexistent) sex tapes unless he himself had a sex tape that he is worried about. That's what keeps the issue in the forefront of his mind. That is how his mind works.

Think about it--is Trump the type who would video his "conquests"? That's a question that answers itself . . .
posted by flug at 7:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Either i'm having an acid flashback or mefi is the best smartest happiest place in spacetime. Jockstrap. BY THE POWER OF GREYPUBES!!!!!!
posted by vrakatar at 7:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Title for the next thread: "You ever see somebody ruin they own life? His poor wife!"
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


"Cut Melania some slack for not condemning #GrabHerByThePussy. FLOTUS has never given such a statement, so she's drafting from scratch." --@TalesDarkSide

That's way too mean. She's being absolutely fucking humiliated right now. She's shouldn't be a target.
posted by Talez at 7:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


Perhaps more significant to a segment of his base is his open confession to trying to covet another man's wife.
posted by humanfont at 7:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


The first response to Ted Cruz's tweet: "yo remember that time Trump called your wife ugly & then you endorsed him? great timing on that endorse by the way, nailed it!".

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
posted by Justinian at 7:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [56 favorites]


Every wife, mother, daughter -- every person -- deserves to be treated with dignity and respect.

Trump 2016!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you want to see how conservatives defend this behavior, it's easy, just search Twitter for "11 years ago".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's way too mean. She's being absolutely fucking humiliated right now. She's shouldn't be a target.

Fair point. I apologize for sharing it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I would pay real money right now to a Kickstarter that smuggles Trump a live phone to tweet from because you know his people have taken his away for a while.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 7:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo There’s no longer any way for Republicans to boot Donald Trump from the ballot
The party could amend the rule to dump Trump, for example, but that would take a majority of the party's Rules Committee and two-thirds of the entire party. This would be neither fast nor, necessarily, successful. (Putnam on Twitter on Friday night: "There just isn't enough time.")

The bigger problem is that voting has already begun. Or, to be more accurate, that it's too late to get Trump off the ballot. Every state has rules guiding how and when candidates can be added to or removed from the ballot. Why? For one reason because the ballots have to be printed and the mechanics of the election put into place.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hannity apparently claiming Trump will soon release a "to camera" statement. Gold, Jerry.
posted by sallybrown at 7:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]



Perhaps more significant to a segment of his base is his open confession to trying to covet another man's wife.

Never underestimate a human's ability to justify doing something that goes against nearly everything they say they believe in.
posted by drezdn at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I know I don't have to tell you guys anything about what a big deal this is, but my mind keeps boggling.

I've been made personally uncomfortable during this campaign at the frequency with which something Trump does or says makes me think of my late father. I've talked about it a bit in the threads. But my dad was a shameless horndog, a porn addict, tasteless and crass, and (naturally) terribly sexist. But today I feel relieved more than anything else. Because my dad would never have said THIS. He would never have acted like THIS. He knew grabbing women without their consent was wrong. He would have very clearly have seen this as over the line.

So mostly, today, I'm relieved to know my dad was not as bad as Donald Trump. That my dad had some kind of moral sense that Trump totally lacks. My dad loved gold-plated fixtures and pictures of naked women, but he wasn't a fucking rapist, like this piece of garbage.
posted by threeturtles at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


Lauren Reeves @laurenreeves
Grab Our Pussy
posted by Talez at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


Hannity apparently claiming Trump will soon release a "to camera" statement. Gold, Jerry.

Oh dear. It's going to make me stand up and yell at the tv isn't it?
posted by Jalliah at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just feel sorry for the SNL writer who had to tear up their cold open.
posted by drezdn at 7:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [55 favorites]


MSNBC: "If this doesn't disqualify someone from being president may god have mercy on all of our souls"
posted by Talez at 7:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


There is an image just now starting to circulate on my Facebook feed: it is a picture of a snarling, angry-looking cat, and the caption reads, "November 8 - Pussy Grabs Back."

I do not know the origin but it is magnificent.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [62 favorites]


Whoa..Grab Our Pussy/ GOP-- good one.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Whether it's this that finally takes him down, or something else, Trump reminds me of that Greek dude whose ambition drove him to fly too close to the sun. Ickyrus, I think?
posted by uosuaq at 7:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I just feel sorry for the SNL writer who had to tear up their cold open.

Lin-Manuel Miranda is the host. He could make up a cold open at 11:25 and it would be great.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]



Whether it's this that finally takes him down, or something else, Trump reminds me of that Greek dude whose ambition drove him to fly too close to the sun.

Giannis Antetokounmpo
posted by drezdn at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


I haven't seen anyone else mention this incredibly gross aspect of the tape:
[I]t’s what happens after the bus door opens that really shows you what Donald is made of, and how the whole entertainment industry is set up to enable assholes like him. Because having had this disgusting conversation about how much they both want to hit that, Donald comes off the bus with a big smile and says hello as if he is a decent human being and Zucker greets him, and then the first goddamn thing Bush says is, “How about a hug for the Donald?” And then of course Donald says Bush has to have a hug.

So in other words, Donald talks about how he likes to grope women, Bush and Donald egg each other on about how gropable Zucker is, and then as soon as they meet her, they help each other touch her.
posted by galaxy rise at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [128 favorites]


I just feel sorry for the SNL writer who had to tear up their cold open.

Oh God, poor Lin-Manuel. And we've been so nice to him with our thread titles.

If only the musical guest tomorrow night were going to be Pussy Riot.
posted by tzikeh at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


He could make up a cold open at 11:25 and it would be great.

*sigh* And it would probably be in Iambic Pentameter too.
posted by drezdn at 7:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Washington State Republican Party Chair Susan Hutchison defends Trump comments, says they "were made when he was a Democrat"
posted by octothorpe at 7:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: We Are in This Election Because the Right Couldn't Stop Trying to Destroy Clinton (and the Media Loved It)
posted by homunculus at 7:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


For the last six weeks I have been just batted by free-floating anxiety attacks, work has been brutal, and shit has just been hard... I am sitting here in the dark reading this thread & the links & feeling the stress just melting away.

The fucker is done. Toast. Outta here. Everyone knew he was a godawful sexist pig, and now it's been laid bare in a way that just drives a stake right through the heart of this damn vampire, and man am I breathing a sigh of relief.

A cool north wind is blowing the last vestiges of a grueling summer away as we speak, and Secretary Clinton is going to make a fine president.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


@SamSteinHP Nobody was raped. Nobody has died” - a defense of Trump now on Fox News

So it's finally being covered by FOX news.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


I do not know the origin but it is magnificent.

The Google points here, based on this postcard.
posted by effbot at 7:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


@SamSteinHP Nobody was raped. Nobody has died” - a defense of Trump now on Fox News

So it's finally being covered by FOX news.
If your "looking on the bright side of a train wreck" is "nobody was raped. nobody has died" you might just need some slightly better standards.
posted by Talez at 7:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


Oh God, poor Lin-Manuel. And we've been so nice to him with our thread titles.

He already wrote several songs about a hurricane and a sex scandal and a guy not getting to be President. I think he's got it covered.

Last election we asked if Nate Silver was a witch; this time around I think we need to ask if LMM is controlling everything.
posted by zachlipton at 7:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


From Mark Halperin's twitter:
NEWS:
On the record quote from Spencer Zwick, main fundraiser for Paul Ryan now & Romney in 2008 & 2012, on move to replace Trump now: "Major GOP donors are pulling support from Donald Trump and are now looking to fund an effort to back someone else as the Republican nominee."
posted by sallybrown at 7:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's McMuffin time!
posted by maudlin at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Right, so it's:
"Nobody was raped. Nobody has died",
and
"He was a Democrat at the time",
and
"I'm sorry if anyone was offended".

All [real].

Got it. You run with that, GOP.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


Do you think Reince has started packing up his office already, or will he wait until after the election?
posted by drezdn at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


So in other words, Donald talks about how he likes to grope women, Bush and Donald egg each other on about how gropable Zucker is, and then as soon as they meet her, they help each other touch her.

Agreed. I told my parents that yes, the whole video was vile but that was the most chilling and predatory moment for me. Bush enabled Dumpster instead of acting as a buffer. Of course that wasn't a surprise given the earlier crude talk but Bush had an opportunity to act like a decent person and failed yet again.

And referring to the woman as "it".
posted by futz at 7:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Now Eric Ericson is calling on Pence to quit as the morally right thing to do. Makes him redeemable for 2020.

Yeah go ahead. Pence might as well quit because he has no chance of being VP in 2016. I personally invite him to run in 2020 because I think that would be AWESOME. We'll see how much America loves his Far Right Evangelical/Tea Party ideas, particularly in view of how Indiana fared under his leadership.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Ken Burns just straight up calling Trump a racist on MSNBC for the Central Park 5 statement and actions.
posted by chris24 at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


CNN reports a taped statement from donnie coming shortly.
posted by vrakatar at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016


Judd Apatow tweets at Lin-Manuel: "I guess Alex Baldwin is getting a new sketch about now. I hope you do a good Billy Bush."

Miranda responds.
posted by tzikeh at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


Major GOP donors should have spent less time and money investigating Clinton and more time vetting their own.
posted by humanfont at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


In my fantasy dreamworld, one of Trump's handlers snatched the Android from his hands while smacking him upside the head, and angrily tossed the phone in the toilet.

Please don't correct me…
posted by Soliloquy at 7:54 PM on October 7, 2016


Pence quitting would be a good solution to this. Trump will never quit, but Pence quitting would be a death blow.
posted by sallybrown at 7:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh dear lord he's going to apologize. I'm so gonna barf.
posted by Jalliah at 7:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Now Eric Ericson is calling on Pence to quit as the morally right thing to do. Makes him redeemable for 2020.

Pence can't drop out either. He's on the ballot too. What he should do is say: I made a mistake when I agreed to be Trump's running mate. Don't vote for this ticket. If elected, I will not serve under a President Trump. Vote your conscience, etc.
posted by dis_integration at 7:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


NBC says Trump is recording a video message to apologize to voters and try to move on, apparently because everybody laughed at the ridiculous statement they put out earlier.
posted by zachlipton at 7:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here comes the media redemption narrative, look how Presidential he was in apologizing for a lifetime of sexual assault.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sean Hannity: "King David had five hundred concubines for crying out loud." [real]

trolololololol
posted by sallybrown at 7:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [57 favorites]


Mitch McConnell has called for Trump to "apologize directly to women and girls everywhere."

But otherwise, all good.

And what's up with "women and girls"? The more one thinks about that phrasing the worse it gets.
posted by petebest at 7:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is he gonna apologize for raping a 13-year-old? Let's hear that apology.
posted by tzikeh at 8:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Washington State Republican Party Chair Susan Hutchison defends Trump comments, says they "were made when he was a Democrat" (real)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:00 PM on October 7, 2016


Welp, this was an expensive day. I donated to HRC, Egg, and subscribed to the digital Washington Post, but, damned if it wasn't worth it. Even in just entertainment value, getting to watch Trump and his enablers at the GOP taken down is worth much more than I could ever afford to give.

We're still a ways from declaring anything absolutely accomplished, but there is at least now a real chance that Donald Trump's decision to run for president may end up being a watermark for US history. As much as I know there will be people out there fighting for regressive politics as usual after this election, I simply cannot believe that the rest of us will be able to ever again just accept the shit they've been content to shovel our way as "just the way things are" 'cause now that "are" ain't no more.

Here's hoping this serves to break every male dominated industry as women and PoC together finally get to speak out against the history of abuse that's run rampant and that those supporting Trump in an effort to "tear it all down" get their wish, but that what comes next isn't anything like they've been imagining.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


Turns out, calling Hannity was a mistake.
posted by drezdn at 8:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


In some ways, I'm surprised by just how incendiary this is. Surely everyone who's been paying attention (which I would think includes the media and Trump's many, many now-regretful endorsers) already knows he's a crude, crass, misogynistic, objectifying creep. I guess they technically didn't know he was a groper but gropeyness keeps pretty close company with all those other qualities, so they should have surmised it. Why all the hand-wringing "How could we have known?" lamentations now? You knew. Everyone knew. Mike Pence, your crocodile tears and fegned outrage do not convince me. You knew who he was. You knew that we knew who he was. Apparently you and everyone else were OK with that until it all crossed a critical threshold of deniability.
posted by jackbishop at 8:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


Just got the Clinton "grab them by the p**sy." email.

Donated $25.
posted by Talez at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


TRUMP VIDEO STATEMENT COMING IN JUST A MINUTE ON CNN!!!

Maybe.

ANy minute now....
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2016


Out on a limb here but I think there is a slight chance this taped statement is a suspension of his campaign. Who will give me ten to one on that?
posted by vrakatar at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


@SamSteinHP Nobody was raped. Nobody has died” - a defense of Trump now on Fox News

Citation needed.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]



Whelp I've had enough cable news and I don't think I can handle watching the statement live. Going to go sit outside for a bit and enjoy the unseasonably warm night.
posted by Jalliah at 8:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is this what they mean when they say "Trump just says what we're all thinking."
posted by drezdn at 8:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


"Major GOP donors are pulling support from Donald Trump and are now looking to fund an effort to back someone else as the Republican nomiee."

Excuse me, but you jackasses officially nominated him as your presidential candidate back at the Republican convention. You can't just shout "Divorce! Divorce! Divorce!" And make your nomination disappear. Grab a life vest, or prepare to drown, fuckers.
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [30 favorites]


I'm not willing to go so far as to bet he would withdraw. But I am willing to bet someone that this taped statement will turn out to be another hotel ad...
posted by invincible summer at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I guess they technically didn't know he was a groper but gropeyness keeps pretty close company with all those other qualities, so they should have surmised it.

Or we could have listened to the other women who accused him of groping them. Then we would have known.
posted by zachlipton at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


Is this what they mean when they say "Trump just says what we're all thinking."

For 40% of America - yes.
posted by tzikeh at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Someone just pointed out it has been 15 days since Cruz endorsed Trump. 15 days! Hah. I bet he is kicking himself so hard. I'm enjoying that along with Trump's blow-up because he is a twerp. Another guy who should run in 2020. Bring it on GOP.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


"later jackals tear at his flesh"
posted by cashman at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not a single word about this from the Trump supporters on my Facebook friends' list. I'd always tried to take the optimistic view of calling out their vile talking points and providing facts. Because calling out racist and other -ist things is the right thing to do. Calling out racism and transphobia and Islamophobia is easy to do as a white, cis, Jewish woman. Calling out sexism hurts, but I'd still do it. But their silence about this is tacit acceptance about what he said, and that makes me feel unsafe. I can't do it anymore.
posted by Ruki at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Still stunned that Billy "My Man" Bush is GeeDubz fucking cousin.

2016 stahp!!
posted by petebest at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


A former Wisconsin Lt. Gov. stands by Trump. She says she's more focused on "keeping us safe." Um, aren't women included in us?
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Damn. Just damn.

I lost my dad a few months ago — my very conservative dad, who was threatened by any issue that had the word “diversity” appended to it (because he felt like it was a personal attack on his, let’s face it, white privilege; loved him anyway). My dad did not like Hillary Clinton for the completely nebulous reasons that lots of other old white men don’t like Hillary Clinton. If you’d asked him why he didn’t like Hillary Clinton, he would have come up with an argument, but it would have been Swiss-cheese-like with holes, and you would have laughed him for it.

At the same time, my dad was a rabid defender of gay rights, because his daughter (me) is gay. That vehemence, sadly, never really extended fully to wholesale feminism — women’s rights — because he couldn’t see how one related to the other. But I tell you what: Today is the day that my dad would have finally said “Fuck it, I’m voting for her.” Hearing Trump say that shit, and knowing that I could have been one of his targets/victims, is what would have finally swung him.

I’m sad and pissed that he didn’t live five months longer than he did. But I’m also hopeful. Because if Trump’s idiocy and awfulness could have finally moved my dad into Hillary’s camp, I trust that his awfulness and idiocy is doing the same to others who have been just as resistant. I mean, this is ultimately how real progress happens. It’s never neat, and it’s never easy, and it’s never simple, but we take what we can get.

And: A big fuck you to Trump and other men who think “grab them by the pussy” is an okay thing. Having been on receiving end of that attitude, FUCK YOU.
posted by mudpuppie at 8:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [88 favorites]



Out on a limb here but I think there is a slight chance this taped statement is a suspension of his campaign. Who will give me ten to one on that?
posted by vrakatar at 11:02 PM on October 7 [+] [!]

*slaps a dime on the bar*

You're ON!

(I think he'll blame Bill some more...)
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:06 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sean Hannity: "King David had five hundred concubines for crying out loud." [real]

You know, if you think the book that you base your morality on says all of this is A-OK, maybe you should look for a new book?
posted by mcduff at 8:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [14 favorites]


"YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE, DONALD"
posted by drezdn at 8:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Watching CNN's live stream now.

It's 4AM here. Talking heads and Audi ads.

God-DAMN, America! Ain't we got enough troubles on our minds here in the old dart?
posted by Devonian at 8:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


King David murdered a man so he could sleep with his wife.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


My condolences, mudpuppie.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


My wife observed this evening that after all the vile, racist, sexist, hateful things that Donnie has said, it's hard to believe that this is what does him in, because he should have been done a long time ago. And I said, if this it, let us take it and move on.

My fond wish - unlikely to be granted, I know - is that every member of the media will ask the mealy mouthed Republicans who are denouncing his comments tonight if they still plan to vote for him. And if the answer is yes, to follow-up with "How can you continue to justify your support? On a personal, ethical level, are there no values that trump (heh) your tribal loyalty to the party?" Again and again, I want to see them get asked this. For a month. By everyone.
posted by nubs at 8:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


If you need one reason alone to get out the vote, one single reason to get off your ass and mobilize and volunteer -

If you don't, Ken Burns will someday read your diary to Ashokan Farewell, and win an award for it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Jason Chaffetz pulls his Trump endorsement (twitter).

I'm actually kind of excited for Egg. I feel like he's almost Metafilter's Own.
posted by sallybrown at 8:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


(SPOILER): A Face in the Crowd seems like more and more of a prediction of the Trump presidential run, including being brought down (hopefully) by an open mic.

Regarding Evangelical support for Trump, the best explanation that I heard is that many don't care if he personally shares their values, as long as he is a "strongman" and a "champion" for them, protecting them from all the scary ooga-booga whatnot out there.

Finally, one of the things I am most worried about: If Trump Disputes the Election, We Have No Good Way Out
posted by dhens at 8:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Who will give me ten to one on that?

I'd give you 10:1. It's too soon. If he's not posted on twitter by now, they at least have a little bit of control over him, and there's no way the RNC is going to make a decision like that this quickly.

It's already apparent that the bulk of the elected vermin with (R)s by their name have received marching orders to "say this is terrible, but nothing more", and only a few principled folks have actually revoked support. This is just going to be business as usual for them as they continue their morally bankrupt campaign.

You'll get a positively tepid, insincere video apology which will have the boring, awkward Yam we always see when he's forced to read off the teleprompter, which will go along with all the "we are shocked... shocked" false outrage from the leading Republicans to make this "OK", and then shit will go on as usual.

Because all those fuckers can burn.

Winning in November? Not a chance in hell. But these jackasses are too far gone to worry about that. They need to salvage what they can so they can gum up the works for 2 years and wait for the midterms, and totally giving in now weakens that stance.

I've gone from shocked to disgusted to hilariously entertained to resigned and angry in the cource of 5 hours or so tonight.


I mean, yeah. The strategic schadenfreude reserves definitely need replenishment after tonight, but while little me is shrieking in Cassandra-like joy, big me is still sad.

Let the jackals rend their fucking flesh.
posted by jammer at 8:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Still stunned that Billy "My Man" Bush is GeeDubz fucking cousin.

I never heard of him until today.
posted by octothorpe at 8:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


You know, if you think the book that you base your morality on says all of this is A-OK, maybe you should look for a new book?

Pretty sure it has something about your neighbor's wife in that book....
posted by tzikeh at 8:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sean Hannity: "King David had five hundred concubines for crying out loud." [real]

Grrr.. If you accept the New Covenant, you can't be calling back to the Abrahamaic and Mosaic Covenants, Sean...
posted by mikelieman at 8:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


I got a crisp Washington for you right here, cookiebastard. If you win. I hope I win.
posted by vrakatar at 8:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone on the Billy Bush page: "Make America Grope Again"

(Obviously, technically the groping never actually stopped, but it's making me laugh)
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]



I never heard of him until today.

IIRC, he reported on the 2000 election.
posted by drezdn at 8:11 PM on October 7, 2016


It is entirely possible that the denizens of this thread represent the largest group of people who know who Evan McMullin is outside of the state of Utah.
posted by zachlipton at 8:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [75 favorites]


Jason Chaffetz, congressman from Utah, has unendorsed on FOX.

@BenWinslow BREAKING NEWS: In live interview on @fox13, @jasoninthehouse RETRACTS endorsement for Donald Trump. #utpol
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


A Face in the Crowd

Was on TCM last night, ironically.
posted by drezdn at 8:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Katy Tur on twitter, reporting something Kelly O'Donnell said:
@KellyO: Trump camp considered an interview but decided a brief video was controlled and could be “exactly as he wanted.”
posted by cashman at 8:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ok, taped statement coming, and then who is staying up for the 3am tweetstorm?
posted by nubs at 8:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is donnie's muskie moment.
posted by vrakatar at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2016


If only Johnson had known what Allepo was or the name of a world leader they'd be running to him right about now.
posted by humanfont at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Utah's ground zero for this" says CNN talking head. Mmmm.
posted by Devonian at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Way to plant, Evan.
posted by drezdn at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Governor of NC (Not for long, I hope)

@PatMcCrory I condemn in the strongest possible terms the comments made by Donald Trump regarding women. I find them disgusting.

but still endorsing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't think McCrory (or his PR flack) bothered to see how those two sentences look together.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [50 favorites]


If this causes a Johnson-Trump-McMuffin split of the conservative vote in UT, Clinton could actually win it. BONKERS.

Going back for more popcorn. I was going to go to bed but I really want to see this video statement.
posted by dis_integration at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jason Chaffitz is apparently the first GOP congressman to unendorse.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Every Democrat currently running for ANYTHING needs to go after their opponent on their Trump support/endorsement, every day until the election.
posted by tzikeh at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


Hallie Jackson says Trump surrogates have been asked to stay off TV tonight. Maybe they realize that they're just making it worse?
posted by zachlipton at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do we just get to apologize now for sexual assault and that makes it go away? Does that work for other crimes? Do undocumented immigrants get to apologize for breaking the law and stay?
posted by Sequence at 8:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Anyone checking out #PodestaEmails? It's trending almost as much as the multiple Bush/Trump tags, all crowing that it's much worse than the Trump story and will surely sink her campaign.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:17 PM on October 7, 2016


Another comment on the hug with trump.

When Arianne Zucker hugs him she makes those little noises "mheh mheh" (heh heh? hard to describe) that I recognize so well as a signal of discomfort and reluctance and feeling forced to into something. She did it to be polite and because she was on camera but those noises tell the whole story. She probably immediately picked up on the negative energy that stepped off that bus.
posted by futz at 8:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


I was waiting for this taped apology but I just want to get my clothes off and climb into bed. I'll read about it tomorrow.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:19 PM on October 7, 2016


So is this video statement an hour long or are they making him tape it over and over again until he stops derailing into more disgusting comments?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's not going to release a video tonight, is he? It would be lost by morning. I'm not going to stay awake for anything. I think they'd drop it in the morning.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:20 PM on October 7, 2016


Anyone checking out #PodestaEmails?

US Intelligence experts:

@MalcolmNance
"Official Warning: #PodestaEmails are already proving to be riddled with obvious forgeries & #blackpropaganda not even professionally done."

@SemenovaKA
"Please be skeptical of alleged #PodestaEmails. Trumpists are dirtying docs. Not all will be as lame as this one is."
posted by chris24 at 8:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Matt Haughey: Where would this presidential election be if Jeff Bezos didn't save the Washington Post?

Thank you @JeffBezos for saving it and America.
posted by octothorpe at 8:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [50 favorites]


IIRC, he reported on the 2000 election.

He was the annoying morning DJ on the crappy pop station in the DC area for a bit. Little did I know he would come to play a crucial role in the survival of our democracy.
posted by sallybrown at 8:21 PM on October 7, 2016


L O'D: "He is completely oblivious that what he's talking about IS sexual assault."

Taped apology pending, Lawrence O'Donnell: "This would be the first apology Donald Trump has issued in the last seventy years of his life."

Daaaaaaaaannnng
posted by petebest at 8:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


It would be pretty wrong to make little "grab them by the p****y" stickers just the right size to paste on the bottom of Trump yard signs, and then go around pasting them on the bottom of Trump yard signs, right? I mean, clearly wrong.
Are we all clear on what I'm saying it would be wrong to do? Just checking.
posted by uosuaq at 8:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


It is entirely possible that the denizens of this thread represent the largest group of people who know who Evan McMullin is outside of the state of Utah.

Uh, /r/mcmullin has just 88 subscribers. This is it you guys: we are Egg's online community.
posted by zachlipton at 8:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [74 favorites]


Anyone checking out #PodestaEmails?

I think we can safely say that for the first time in the entire campaign, NOBODY gives a shit about Clinton email noise at the moment.
posted by tzikeh at 8:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


Lisa Murkowski Internal Poll of Alaska came out. Oct 5-6.

Trump: 37 (-2)
Clinton: 34 (+3)
Johnson: 10 (+1)
Stein: 2 (-2)
DK: 13 (+1)
None: 5 (+1)

Hillary is going to take Alaska.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [29 favorites]


Can someone with CNN confirm, did they say the tape is coming tonight or should I just go to bed?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


It would be pretty wrong to make little "grab them by the p****y" stickers just the right size to paste on the bottom of Trump yard signs, and then go around pasting them on the bottom of Trump yard signs, right? I mean, clearly wrong. Are we all clear on what I'm saying it would be wrong to do? Just checking.

I totally admire your motivations, but I'm going to go with "Not Helpful."
posted by mudpuppie at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Anyone checking out #PodestaEmails? It's trending almost as much as the multiple Bush/Trump tags, all crowing that it's much worse than the Trump story and will surely sink her campaign.

Yeah. Some of the speech excerpts are pretty bad for her. Well. They'll be bad for the enthusiasm of leftists who support her. Certainly if they had come out early during the primary they would've been red meat for the Sanders camp: pro keystone, pro free trade, pro the Simpson-Bowles proposals to cut Social Security, and in favor of having a "public and private" policy position.

But none of it surprises this leftist. Really if you've been clear eyed about the kind of politician Clinton is all along you'd expect exactly this sort of Obama-like status-quo centrism. It's not a campaign killer at all. Again, if she was running against Sanders still, it would be bad. But in this context it's barely a story.
posted by dis_integration at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Taped apology turns out to be a twenty minute long relaunch of Trump Steaks with a 36 second "Eleven years ago Bill Bush started some comments. Today I'm ending it. I don't think it's right to grab a woman in the pussy."
posted by Talez at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


I also wonder if trump was married when he attempted to have sex with Nancy.
posted by futz at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2016


You know how Putin wore a cross to trick Bush? I think we already know how Putin would manipulate Trump.
posted by drezdn at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


PAUL RYAN: I was disappointed to learn that Donald Trump was the director of "Two Girls, One Cup." Once he apologizes, please vote for him. [real tweet, fake content]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mister Fabulous: What am I missing? That shows Trump at 37 and Clinton at 34. Doesn't that make him the taker of Alaska (if it holds)?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2016


TAPE IS COMING.

TELL ME MORE ABOUT MACMUFFIN.
posted by vrakatar at 8:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I also wonder if trump was married when he attempted to have sex with Nancy.

I believe he'd been married for a few months.
posted by sallybrown at 8:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know how Putin wore a cross to trick Bush? I think we already know how Putin would manipulate Trump.

Grab him by the something or other?
posted by davros42 at 8:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apologies if this was posted earlier (I searched, I tried), but if you weren't disgusted enough by today's stuff there was also Part 1 of this longform that ran in DailyKos yesterday:

"We All Knew About the Trafficking" - The Untold Story of Trump Model Management (Part 1)

And I thought this piece of work was going to blow things apart. But the video surely speaks volumes more at this point.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


There's been a delay on the tape as Trump decides what hotel to tour during it.
posted by drezdn at 8:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


If he actually does do a video apology, I think it'll just turn out to bite him in the end. I'm not sure he really has any savvy moves left at this point. Does anyone really believe this revelation is it, that it's the sum total of his sliminess committed to film? Let's say he goes out there and grovels and makes the most shockingly sincere apology of his life. The original tape is going to inspire TV people all over the world to pore through their archives: how sincere will his next apology video be? What about the one after that?
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


are they making him tape it over and over again until he stops derailing into more disgusting comments?

Probably. I imagine it's a very busy room. Two Merediths and a Steve in one corner, one deleting all the outtakes (another confirming that they've been deleted, a third pouring bleach on things because they don't understand how deleting things works), plus the cameraperson, Trump himself, a couple advisors coaching him on delivery, a couple people just standing around because they want to help but don't know what to do, and, hopefully, one woman in the corner taking very careful notes on her phone for the tell-all book she intends to write after the election's over.*

*"NDA? Fuck your NDA, Donald. You can't afford to sue me anymore."
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [27 favorites]


They can't find a mic Trump likes.
posted by chris24 at 8:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


If the NBC leaker had access to this clip, wouldn't he or she have access to The Apprentice tapes?

If that person gets fired, I will happily donate to a kickstarter.
posted by sallybrown at 8:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mister Fabulous: What am I missing? That shows Trump at 37 and Clinton at 34. Doesn't that make him the taker of Alaska (if it holds)?

It's prior to this massive turd hitting the rapidly rotating fan.
posted by Talez at 8:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Utah rep on CNN: I've been in a lot of locker rooms, this is not locker room talk (paraphrase).
posted by vrakatar at 8:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


f the NBC leaker had access to this clip, wouldn't he or she have access to The Apprentice tapes?

Apparently not.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


So is this video statement an hour long or are they making him tape it over and over again until he stops derailing into more disgusting comments?

It's just going to be chopped up like Max Headroom.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


MSNBC's chyron was showing "Awaiting Taped Trump Statement" or something like that, it's now changed to "Chaffetz Retracts Trump Endorsement"
posted by petebest at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2016


I believe he'd been married for a few months.

He was talking about Nancy in the past. Before her (according to him) surgeries etc.

Just curious. I'll drop it now
posted by futz at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2016


I also wonder if trump was married when he attempted to have sex with Nancy.

I can't imagine Melania would care, so long as she wasn't visibly humiliated. Now, though ...
posted by Countess Elena at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


If the NBC leaker had access to this clip, wouldn't he or she have access to The Apprentice tapes?

This tape was originally in the Access Hollywood and then was on the NBC video server as they prepared the story, the one they perhaps intended to run next week before someone leaked it. What we've been told is that NBC doesn't have raw footage from The Apprentice because that all belongs to the production company, Mark Burnett Productions. The production company won't return calls from the press, not even for a no comment.
posted by zachlipton at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


An important message from Stephen Colbert’s den.
posted by nicepersonality at 8:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Now, now let's just stop and think about this rationally. Trump's campaign organization is the best of the best - if anyone can take this campaign-deleting story and turn it around to their advantage they can.

TRUMP: "I never said that"

BANNON: Great! Post it! On to New Jersey!
posted by petebest at 8:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh man, just remembered that Sunday is the town hall. No way they keep it out.

I don't think I've seen it said yet, for this to be true, it needs to be worded as a question to both candidates and people have to vote for it here.

If someone finds a link to a good question to vote on, I'd love to see it.
posted by VTX at 8:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Private Jewish speech... Once again, fuck Wikileaks.

@wikileaks:
"Hillary Clinton in private Jewish speech "Saudis have exported more extreme ideology than any other place on earth.""
posted by chris24 at 8:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


If he actually does do a video apology, I think it'll just turn out to bite him in the end.

I can guarantee that Saturday Night Live crew members are currently waiting by televisions with notepads so they can get to work replicating the look of the video apology set exactly before tomorrow night's show.
posted by bluecore at 8:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


"NDA? Fuck your NDA, Donald. You can't afford to sue me anymore."

Beyond a Hillary win, I think that is the single biggest thing I hope for out of this election.

Well, OK, third. I want this to be the death knell of the GOP as we know it, but I'm afraid that isn't going to happen. So I'll settle for the total legal, financial, and psychological destruction of its most recently chosen paragon.

...

I think for some reason the Manhattans are making me an angry drunk tonight. Might be time to go green.
posted by jammer at 8:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


From what I could gather regarding the Podesta emails thing, it seems like the Trumpers are going through speeches and emails highlighting things out of context or simply things they disagree with. Some "highlights" include Clinton saying she's no longer a member of the middle class but remembers what it was like, which they are using to suggest she's out of touch; some comments about different immigrant groups faring differently upon arrival in the US, which they are claiming proves racism when the context seems to suggest racism was part of her point, but the quotes don't go far enough to show that definitively; some comments about HRC's dream being open borders and open trade, which they don't like, and some other quotes I couldn't quite parse regarding the Middle East.

Some of it may have been spinnable in a normal year, and some still might find some traction this year, assuming the quotes are all real, but the insistence of saying that info is more damning than the Trump tapes seems more than a little bit of wishful thinking right now. I only made a quick perusal though since I couldn't read the idiotic Trump support tweets for very long without feeling a little unwell.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow. Chaffetz is unloading on Trump on CNN right now. Can't defend his support for this man to his wife and daughters. GOP must take the moral road. I'm out. I'm no longer endorsing.

I couldn't keep up with the feed - but that was a man completely unable to stomach the Donald.
posted by Devonian at 8:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


He was talking about Nancy in the past.

He was also popping Tic Tacs because he might just be kissing women without asking. He doesn't even have to ask, when you're a star they let you do it. Grab them by the pussy.

It was very present-tense.
posted by petebest at 8:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


This might be a long night, I still say he's going to suspend. He's got no friends now, staff must be leaving- would you want the job of spinning this? I gotta work at 9 but I think this might be staying up for.
posted by vrakatar at 8:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Shamelessly stolen from mefi's own brownpau, but we need to start calling this the Octopussy Surprise.
posted by Behemoth at 8:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


A Face in the Crowd

Was on TCM last night, ironically.

I wouldn't be so sure it was a coincidence.
posted by Flashman at 8:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can guarantee that Saturday Night Live crew members are currently waiting by televisions with notepads so they can get to work replicating the look of the video apology set exactly before tomorrow night's show.

That's what I was thinking. So I pondered if Trump would wait to release it until after, but he can't wait. If this went on all tomorrow it would just rip the republicans apart. So he can't wait, so it'll probably come out overnight. Probably at 3am. And then the republicans will hurt themselves saying he apologized twice and can't we just move on blah blah yatta yatta. But I am happy to have been wrong about Trump's activities tomorrow, so hopefully more events happen that spell the almost certain end of his campaign.
posted by cashman at 8:39 PM on October 7, 2016


I mean...when else in your life are you going to see the slow-motion implosion of Presidential campaign a month before the election, over a tape in which the candidate seems to admit to sexual assault?

Hopefully for all of us, this is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Which will not be a few months from now in a nuclear war Donald started.
posted by sallybrown at 8:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


If there was a bombshell in the Hilary speeches it would've come out already, Wall St. is not exactly her most friendly audience, and someone would've dropped it by now. The speeches were more dangerous unleaked than leaked, when Bernie Bros and Trumpsters alike could impute anything they liked into them. In the light of day I'm sure there some stuff that won't play great with some audiences, but it's nothing compared to the self-immolation going on in Trump tower right now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think this tweet has the image Empress Callipygos is looking for. I don't know the ultimate source of this, but it's all over Twitter as well. Indeed.
posted by Silverstone at 8:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


How about Trumptober Suprise? Or maybe Trumptoberfest.
posted by humanfont at 8:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I am going to be pissed if Trump drops out and we don't get to see him destroyed at the ballot box.
posted by Flashman at 8:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


If there is an online videofeed of anything, please let me know (I picked the wrong month to get rid of cable).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:43 PM on October 7, 2016


At the end, what finally drove the country off the edge was not Mexicans or Muslims, it wasn't that African-Americans are living in hell or a Latina Miss Universe. What finally outraged Paul Ryan, McCain, Romney, Chaffetz and the rest is white women being disparaged. Fuck.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell: "Access Hollywood says they have dozens and dozens more hours of video like this of Donald Trump..."

Bring. It. On.
posted by jammer at 8:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [63 favorites]


I am going to be pissed if Trump drops out and we don't get to see him destroyed at the ballot box.

You still will. He'll be on the ballot regardless, at this point.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's not your grandfather's October surprise, for sure.
posted by uosuaq at 8:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Maybe I'll skip the election stuff today", I said
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:44 PM on October 7, 2016 [42 favorites]


CNN reporting that Donald had to be strenuously talked into the taped statement by advisors, which they suspect is what is causing the delay. This is going to be such a trainwreck.
posted by sallybrown at 8:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wonder if that might be his thinking: Announce that the terrible terrible mean liberals are being so terribly terribly mean to him, that for the sake of his family and his children he is dropping out of the campaign. Then count on his persecution tale to make people feel sorry for him and vote for him, which in his messed up mind will lead him to win.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:45 PM on October 7, 2016


"Hillary Clinton in private Jewish speech "Saudis have exported more extreme ideology than any other place on earth.""
Wikileaks and Fox News hate the truth. The Saudis are Wahhabists and fund the building of extremist Muslim mosque infrastructure throughout the world. Anyone who has read a book on modern Islam knows this.
posted by xyzzy at 8:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't want him to step down. I want him to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the party wants him to step down, and that his campaign has zero chance. Because in that position I can just see him lashing out and spilling every last little secret he knows about the rest of the GOP to take them down with him.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Owen Ellickson's Twitter Feed
GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 1!
TRUMP: "Look, people... relax, OK?"
GIULIANI: We nailed it!
CONWAY: Try again

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 2!
TRUMP: "Bill Clinton talks about felching. Look it up."
GIULIANI: Poifect!
CONWAY: No

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 3!
TRUMP: "Was what I said perfect? Who can say?"
GIULIANI: Powerful!
CONWAY: Jesus

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 4!
TRUMP: "I no longer want to run for President."
CONWAY: Thank Christ--
GIULIANI: NO!

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 5!
TRUMP: "I misspoke. I didn't fail to land Nancy O'Dell. There's still time"
CONWAY:

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 6!
TRUMP: "It was a tricky handle on that bus door. Anyone would've struggled."
CONWAY:

GIULIANI: Sexual assault talk respahnse video, take 7!
TRUMP: "If I hate women how come I give 'em tiaras, their #1 favorite thing?"
CONWAY:
So far...
posted by Talez at 8:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


While we wait for Trump's video apology, here's five minutes of him recording ringtones.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


What am I missing? That shows Trump at 37 and Clinton at 34. Doesn't that make him the taker of Alaska (if it holds)?

Two reasons for me:
1. This is an internal poll for a Republican senator.
2. Today. I think this is the dagger.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


@robinthede:
"When the Republican Party elects a nominee, they're not sending their best. They're criminals, they're rapists..."
posted by chris24 at 8:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [82 favorites]


GOP Rep. Mike Coffman calls for Trump to step aside (twitter).
posted by sallybrown at 8:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


No No NO. He's going to suspend for health reasons, there will be a loophole to let the RNC choose a new top of the ticket. Maybe Pence, maybe the muffin, maybe Romney, maybe Newt. This is the GOP wildcard play-in game.
posted by vrakatar at 8:50 PM on October 7, 2016


GOP Rep. Mike Coffman calls for Trump to step aside (twitter).

One of the responses:
Not "he doesn't represent GOP values." Instead "he can't win".
posted by mochapickle at 8:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


No No NO. He's going to suspend for health reasons

He can't though. He's blustered his way into this, and he can't do the health thing because he'll look like the biggest chump ever after all he said. Like people have been saying, him and the GOP are locked in and they're going down together. I hope.
posted by cashman at 8:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just reminded of this picture released by the Clinton Library of Bill C. and Donald T. together in happier times and OMIGOD WHAT IS HE GRABBING?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


When Hillary walks out on stage Sunday, she should hold her hands over her crotch when Donald gets near her.
posted by perhapses at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


there will be a loophole to let the RNC choose a new top of the ticket.

again, it's impossible! names already on ballots. votes are already cast. the rnc would have to convene a new convention! or the rules comm + a vote of the members. pence, cruz, kasich, rubio, maybe even bush, would all think they were the one and would lobby for votes. it would take 2 weeks or more. Then there would be no time to put a name on the ballot.

They're stuck with Trump. There's nothing they can do about it now.
posted by dis_integration at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Won't Tehhund be in for a big surprise when they finally get here?
posted by zachlipton at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [86 favorites]


Octehhund Surprise?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Look, folks...people are saying I said some things which are on a tape of me saying them, okay. But recordings -- right, folks? -- can you really believe what you hear today with all the cyber, right, and I mean, they just make you hear what they want, I have a son, he's got computers, so good with these computers, and it could be anything on that tape, folks, I mean, who are you going to believe, this recording of me or *that* recording of me?
posted by uosuaq at 8:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Gary Hart should say something.
posted by vrakatar at 8:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Shamelessly stolen from mefi's own brownpau, but we need to start calling this the Octopussy Surprise.

A bit jokey for serial sexual assault.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


fwiw, MSNBC has updated their video-montage that plays over the talking to include lots more shots of Ivanka and Melania.

Probably random and/or coincidence.
posted by petebest at 8:56 PM on October 7, 2016


This is crazy, but, well, remember who we're talking about: That Colbert clip reminds me that today is a Friday before a long weekend. That's the worst time to drop something like this if you want it to be visible. Indeed, it's usually when people tend to drop things they want to bury. It's a thing. Media and business people know all about it. Is it possible Trump's camp got wind of this recording and leaked it themselves, today, in the hopes it would go (relatively) unnoticed? I mean, it couldn't be any more misguided (studies show it doesn't actually work, even when you're not already guaranteed to be the most talked about subject in the news regardless), but, you know.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I didn't say all that stuff I coulda said about Bill at the last debate so let's say you drop this and we're squarsies?"
posted by jason_steakums at 8:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I hope she refuses to shake his hand.
posted by perhapses at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


again, it's impossible! names already on ballots. votes are already cast. the rnc would have to convene a new convention!

The other side of the coin is how the republican base would react or rather how the Trump-republican base would react. Even if Trump voluntarily steps aside thee would be a hell of a lot of people who'd be pissed at the republican party. /r/t_d isn't exaggerating too much when they call him "god emperor".
posted by nathan_teske at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2016


Don't grab my pussy
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


For those of us for whom politics is our football, today is like an impromptu Super Bowl broke out and all the players were robots with butt lasers.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [96 favorites]


The long weekend thing isn't going to work when the second debate is in the middle of the weekend on Sunday and Trump is the single biggest news topic in the entire world.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


If there is still time to put a name on the ballot, couldn't they just put someone one tomorrow, as an independent, and then have the party officially endorse them and have them join the party? And if there isn't time to put a name on the ballot, I thought US ballots allowed write-in candidates (madness, IMO, but that's true of just about everything about the way your elections are run). Couldn't they run a new candidate that people would have to write-in?

Finally, since the electoral college members are allowed to vote for whomever they want (I think), couldn't the RNC pick another candidate and say that trump's electors will vote for the candidate? For that matter, what are the chances that if the RNC continues to officially endorse Trump, that some electors will vote Hillary or abstain in disgust?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:58 PM on October 7, 2016


I was thinking about Melania, and how humiliated she must be, and I realized that this is another Trump Mirror. He has spent so much time talking about 30-year stories about Bill and Hillary but it's really he and Melania.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I feel bad for the three guests on Lawrence O'Donnell's show who figured they'd sit in for an easy 6 minute segment and have been forced to kill time for like 1.5 hours waiting for Trump's statement.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is crazy, but, well, remember who we're talking about: That Colbert clip reminds me that today is a Friday before a long weekend. That's the worst time to drop something like this if you want it to be visible.

It's the Friday before the Sunday debate. It's the exact time to drop something like this if you want to fuck with Donald's head and guarantee that it's the ONLY thing that the Sunday morning beltway coffee klatches like Meet the Press will talk about.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


What a night to have officially come out to my mom as a Democrat (and she admitted to me that she voted for Obama in 08 - up is down, black is white!) Mom is 100% NeverTrump, but still doesn't like and mistrusts Hillary. I worked on that a little just to experiment with approaches. Most effective was just asking for specific examples of bad things that she has done, because mom really couldn't come up with specifics and I just kind of let that sit on the table. A few times she tried to speculate on her (HRC's) motivations and i just said, how do you know that? Mom is a pessimist and generally assumes that all politicians are corrupt, so I'm never going to convince her to be enthusiastic about a candidate. And she's not going to vote for Trump so really my stretch goal here is getting her to hold her nose and vote Hillary rather than just taking a pass altogether. We're in PA. Every vote matters.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [49 favorites]


@xeni:
"Show me on the ballot where the bad man touched you."
posted by chris24 at 9:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


He's going to suspend for health reasons, there will be a loophole to let the RNC choose a new top of the ticket.

Conservatives can't easily rig the election at this late stage without violating several state ballot deadlines.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Finally, since the electoral college members are allowed to vote for whomever they want (I think), couldn't the RNC pick another candidate and say that trump's electors will vote for the candidate? For that matter, what are the chances that if the RNC continues to officially endorse Trump, that some electors will vote Hillary or abstain in disgust?

Some states allow faithless electors, yes, but many don't.

Importantly, Florida and Ohio don't allow faithless electors and there are very few Trump paths to victory without them.

This could be the year of the faithless elector, if there ever was one.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh FFS Chris Matthews now talking about Bill Clinton & Monica Lewinsky...
posted by zakur at 9:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


A roundup of weird things Republicans have said in their statements so far tonight:

Trump: Bill Clinton is worse. "I apologize if anyone was offended." (Not an apology)
McCain: "He alone bears the burden of his conduct and alone should suffer the consequences." (i.e. "don't blame me for any of this")
Ryan: "Women are to be championed and revered, not objectified." (Creepy. Objectifies.)
Rubio: "No one should ever talk about any woman in those terms, even in private." (Why did he need to add "even in private?")
Coffmann: Trump should step aside because he'll lose us the election, not because he's on tape being all rapey.
Pat McCrory: "I condemn in the strongest possible terms the comments made by Donald Trump regarding women. I find them disgusting." (Failed to proofread both sentences together.)
posted by zachlipton at 9:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Is it possible Trump's camp got wind of this recording and leaked it themselves, today, in the hopes it would go (relatively) unnoticed?

They would have to be incredibly stupid to leak it without the response all ready and cued up.

So yeah, plausible. <rim shot>
posted by ctmf at 9:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's video is out now on TV.
posted by zachlipton at 9:08 PM on October 7, 2016


Video statement on now. It's robotic and terrible.
posted by theodolite at 9:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Really, he's mentioning Hillary and Bill in this statement?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


NOTHING MORE THAN A DISTRACTION.

HOLY SHIT EVEN WHEN HE'S APOLOGIZING.
posted by Talez at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


GAPA
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Congress counts and certifies the votes of the electoral college, so in theory it would come down to their judgement on how to count the faithless electors ballot.
posted by humanfont at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016


"No one should ever talk about any woman in those terms, even in private." (Why did he need to add "even in private?")

This is the only one I'll give some credit: Some people had already tried to defend that it was private and therefore not that bad, and I don't think the last was intended as a response to what happened, but rather a response to how others were responding.
posted by Sequence at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


A+ apology, he nailed it, I’m back on the Trump train
posted by gerryblog at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


Holy shit that statement. He turned it into an attack.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hahahahahahaha he's dead, it's over
posted by theodolite at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Lewandowski: We're not electing a sunday school teacher, we're electing a leader. Donald is brash and tough! This is how real people talk at the dining room table. Besides, we don't know what Hillary said in her wall street speeches and it's probably just as bad! [paraphrased, but 100% real]
posted by mochapickle at 9:09 PM on October 7, 2016


Motherfucker that was even worse than the statement.
posted by Talez at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


"This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today."

Bringing up Bill and Hillary - "we will discuss this more in the coming days. See you at the debate on Sunday."
posted by sallybrown at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yup, taped statement blames Bill Clinton. Dogwhistles all around.
posted by vrakatar at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016


That was horrible. 90 second video.

Discusses how the tape is a decade old. "Anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who I am. I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize." I've traveled around the country in this election and that's changed me. "I pledge to be a better man tomorrow and will never ever let you down. Let's be honest. We're living in the real world. This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today." Goes on about how we're losing our jobs and "Hillary Clinton and her kind" are ruining the country. "I've said some foolish things," but Bill and Hillary's actions are worse. "See you at the debate on Sunday."
posted by zachlipton at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Holy shit he's going to go after Bill Clinton.
posted by nathan_teske at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh. My. God. His apology video tries to switch to attacking Bill Clinton. IS THIS REAL LIFE?
posted by xyzzy at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't believe the horrible lighting and audio in that video. It looks like it was shot in the subway.
posted by HotToddy at 9:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Great, expect to hear Juanita Broaddrick's name at the debate. Had huge fears that the election was going to delve even deeper into another realm of shitiness; it's like a nightmare coming true.
posted by windbox at 9:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apparently the Washington State GOP chairwoman says it's ok because he was a Democrat at the time. WTF

As you may recall, this is the party chair who dealt with open rebellion from us delegates by melting down and nearly assaulting Heidi Cruz.
posted by corb at 9:11 PM on October 7, 2016 [41 favorites]


Here's a Facebook link to Trump's statement so you can watch it yourself.
posted by zachlipton at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Called it! MeMail me that buck, vrakatar!
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's the worst time to drop something like this if you want it to be visible

I would agree if it weren't 2 days before the next debate. Just enough time to disrupt whatever practice he had planned, get him totally off track & probably show up at the thing literally 3 days without sleep. Also, just enough time to have it fully crammed into the news cycle but nice & fresh on everyone's minds. This destroys the debate for him as well, which is part of why I think it really is the campaign killer for real & for good.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


"This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today."

Rape culture is an important issue that we face every day.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [86 favorites]


Link for the TVless? LINK? Why isn't it on twitter? OMG...I've waited SECONDS!!!
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


What a total nothingburger of a statement by Trump. Any sane person would have apologized and ended it. He goes on to draw Bill and Hillary Clinton into it. In addition, he doesn't seem to understand that while he apologized for words alone, the tape showed him describing an assault. He was defiant, not apologetic.
posted by Silverstone at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary is preparing for the debate by watching the Rocky training montage video over and over again thinking OK LETS DO THIS.
posted by Justinian at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Don Lemon: "Oh my god, Donald Trump's campaign was torpedoed on my show."
posted by sallybrown at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Must be why Cruz endorsed Trump.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016


Person who is pathologically incapable of admitting he's wrong... etc.
posted by holgate at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fuck him SO MUCH. I hate him and everything he stands for.
posted by Salieri at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


TRUMP/QUAYLE 1996!
posted by vrakatar at 9:12 PM on October 7, 2016


He's very scowly, very angry, and choppily read from a teleprompter.

Plus his orange dischromia is off for some reason. Too red.
posted by petebest at 9:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHY DOES HE NEED TO BE A BETTER MAN TOMORROW IF THAT'S NOT HIM!

HE CAN'T EVEN KEEP HIS OWN NARRATIVE CONSISTENT FROM ONE SENTENCE TO ANOTHER!
posted by Talez at 9:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also: we can legally replace Trump. Replacement cannot win but could save the GOP from being on fire.
posted by corb at 9:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Post reporter Philip Rucker: "Hostage video optics."
posted by sallybrown at 9:13 PM on October 7, 2016 [26 favorites]


More from the video: "Bill Clinton has actually abused women and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed, and intimidated his victims."
posted by zachlipton at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


corb: the honorable thing to do in that case would be to withdraw the ticket entirely and allow Clinton to run unopposed (by a Republican).
posted by Justinian at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now I have to stay up all night to see what this guy tweets at 3 AM.
posted by gerryblog at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seems legit.
posted by Devonian at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016


I don't know why, but none of the twitter or FB videos that are posted as videos directly (not links to youtube) play for me. They just load endlessly. Couldn't watch the Colbert, either. I've tried three different browers and turned off my add-ons. Any ideas?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016


Am I crazy or is he sniffling again
posted by Countess Elena at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann
Told you he would blame Bill and Hillary. What a fucking idiot @RealDonaldTrump is #LeaveTheContinent
posted by Talez at 9:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Shoutout to the SNL crew members currently scrambling to find that shitty 90s city backdrop to put behind Alec Baldwin for tomorrow night's show.
posted by bluecore at 9:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


I suspect that the only way to save the GOP from being on fire is if the GOP party members vote out not just Trump, but all the party members who ever endorsed him, even briefly.

Or maybe fire is what the GOP needs now, kind of like some forests actually need to burn every once in a while because that clears away the excess weed growth and actually encourages some of the conifers to drop their seeds and stuff.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


Filter: Kelvin.
posted by sallybrown at 9:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did he actually apologize for groping women, or did he just apologize for SAYING that he groped women? I'm not up to watching it.
posted by Sequence at 9:16 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whoa, I get stuck in afternoon meetings and then do youth group activities in the evening and I come home to the internet apparently going absolutely bonkers in the most recent example of Trump being a completely deplorable excuse for a human being.

At the rate at which this thread is adding posts I'm not sure there won't need to be a new thread for saturday and the first part of sunday before we even get into the debate.


What's really hitting me at this point is that he's actions and words are so absolutely disgusting that I can't even feel glad about the likely end result of electoral disaster. Yes Trump and the Republican party need to be punished for promoting this utter waste of space but fundamentally we should've never ever had this awful man ever get anywhere near the presidency.

His complete failure as a human being should've negated his chances a long time ago but there have been periods where he's been within the margin of error. How fucked up is our culture that this man was/is so close to becoming the most powerful person in the world? I'm frankly ashamed that we have continually failed to address the sorts of problems of which Trump is only the tip of the iceberg.
posted by vuron at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [22 favorites]


Rep. Chaffetz on MSNBC right now. Is not impressed with the video statement. Still withdrawing his endorsement of Trump, but cannot bring himself to vote for Clinton either.
posted by dnash at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016


Angry Trump without a hint of contrition. I am so relieved. He's in this a muerte, and he doesn't care if he takes the GOP down with him.
posted by Flashman at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ugh just watched the vid and had no idea I could be even more grossed out by him than I was before. It's like an exercise in sustained nausea.
posted by mochapickle at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


he's going after Bill Clinton.
Not the first time.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016


GOP Rep Barbara Comstock of Virginia withdraws her endorsement.
posted by sallybrown at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


@Lin_Manuel

Gnight.
Bout to be midnight and I am still up writing and filming segments.
Bring it in for a hug!
Hasta mañana!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


Jamelle Bouie: "the GOP doesn't care if it alienates nonwhites. It cares if it alienates white women."

I think that's painfully on the mark.
posted by holgate at 9:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


Did he actually apologize for groping women, or did he just apologize for SAYING that he groped women? I'm not up to watching it.

Without saying so, he seemed to imply it was just words and not actions.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him? Have they been looking for an excuse to bail?
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


So predictable. What would general MacArther think?
posted by humanfont at 9:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


And he apologized for SAYING it. Not for any of the actions he said he did.
posted by mochapickle at 9:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Conway just committed political malpractice by releasing this garbage.
posted by xyzzy at 9:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Rep. Chaffetz on MSNBC right now. Is not impressed with the video statement

He began though, by saying "Wellll...I hope [Trump] is sincere." I literally stood up and yelled oh come on!

We all know damn well Trump isn't sincere about this. Anybody could look at that and know.
posted by cashman at 9:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Despite my better judgement I got into a brief Twitter bout with a Trump supporter who was dismissing this whole issue as a distraction because Trump was going to "Make America great again."

I snarked "explain how grabbing women's crotches makes America great again."

....And the dude actually said something about how having children so there were future generations was good, and at presumably grabbing of crotches goes on during sex, so there you go.

Y'all, Trump isn't the problem. The people who support him are.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [61 favorites]


Without saying so, he seemed to imply it was just words and not actions.

Trump: "I've said some foolish things but there's a big difference between the words and actions of other people. Bill Clinton has actually abused women and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed and intimidated his victims. We will discuss this more in the coming days."
posted by zakur at 9:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think there'll be more headlines before the debate from women who were abused and taken advantage of by Trump, to hell with the NDA and whatever private payoff they might have received. The dam has broken.
posted by holgate at 9:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump keeps tipping his hand wrt using the Bill Clinton scandals in the debate. Obviously Clinton's team will be well prepared for this.
posted by angrybear at 9:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him? Have they been looking for an excuse to bail?

I would imagine there are a fair number that haven't been thrilled with Trump at the top of the ticket, but have been expected to stay loyal by the GOP leadership. This is just giving some of them a good reason to finally cut themselves loose, either out of fear of getting caught as collateral damage in the election or out of real belief Trump isn't fit to lead.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:23 PM on October 7, 2016


he's fucking stupid and keeps walking into traps. he's being trolled big time. now he has said "bill clinton actually abused women", implying he hasn't. countdown to revelations of trumps actual abuse of women in 3, 2, 1...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


Y'all, Trump isn't the problem. The people who support him are.

I don't like to be the kind of guy who says "duh," but, I mean, duh.
posted by dersins at 9:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


90 seconds. A 90-second video.
posted by cashman at 9:23 PM on October 7, 2016


Can you spot the Rick Roll in Trump's statement (twitter)? Seems to be a Trump family tradition.
posted by sallybrown at 9:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Naw, Trump is also the problem.
posted by lkc at 9:24 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Keep on going after Bill, Donald, you just might finally get Bob Dole elected in 1996
posted by jason_steakums at 9:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [35 favorites]


*plane finally lands*

"wow geez, they weren't kidding when they said LA traffic was bad, it'll take an hour just to hail a taxi. sure hope this trump thing took off and still has—" *checks thread* "oh ok thank fuck"
posted by rorgy at 9:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


What the hell were they doing for so many hours if that's the best they came up with? I can imagine the negotiations [fake]:

Trump: What if I just say "Sor--" and then launch into attacking the Clintons?
Conway: No no. You actually have to say the phrase "I apologize."
Trump: How about "Sorry but Hillary--"
Conway: No. They tell me the apology has to end with a period.
Trump: But I can pivot to Clintons after 10 seconds?
Conway: An entire minute. Then you can pivot to attacking the Clintons in the middle of your apology statement.
Trump: 30 seconds?
Conway: 45 seconds.
Trump: Donald Trump is the best negotiator.
posted by zachlipton at 9:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


I know it's not politically correct to say this, but after reading the full transcript of Trump's apology, I believe him.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


I would imagine there are a fair number that haven't been thrilled with Trump at the top of the ticket, but have been expected to stay loyal by the GOP leadership

Let's be more cynical: most House members are in uncompetitive districts; those who have real contests see turnout numbers and expect trickle-down support on the ballot.

There's lazy complicity, soft complicity and hard complicity. It's all complicity.
posted by holgate at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don Lemon says "we can expect a Paul Ryan unendorsement soon," saying he is hearing from sources. Not clear if he means tonight or in the next few days.
posted by sallybrown at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Like his hand could grab a whole pussy
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


For those of you who didn't see it on TV and don't want to give the orange sack of shit any views on Facebook, I've transcribed the whole thing:
I've never said I'm a perfect person, nor pretended to be some one I'm not. I've said and done things I regret, and the words released today on this more than decade old video are one of them. Anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who I am. I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize. I've traveled the country talking about change for America, but my travels have also changed me. I've spent time with grieving mothers who've lost their children, laid off workers whose jobs have gone to other countries, and people from all walks of life who just want a better future. I have gotten to know the great people of our country and I have been humbled by the faith they have place in me. I pledge to be a better man tomorrow and will never ever let you down. Let's be honest: we're living in the real world. This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today. We are losing our jobs, we are less safe than we were 8 years ago, and Washington is totally broken. Hillary Clinton and her kind have run our country into the ground. I've said some foolish things but there's a big difference between the words and actions of other people. Bill Clinton has actually abused women, and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed, and intimidated his victims. We will discuss this more in the coming days. See you at the debate on Sunday.
posted by jammer at 9:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him?

I'm not sure either, but I think it has something to do with the other people in the video. I'm not sure if it's Bush or whoever, but someone has the sort of "oh my god, is this for real, this is crazy but also thrilling and amazing" nervous laugh that pretty much sounds exactly like the kind of laugh you have when you realize a set of rules you thought were in force didn't actually apply and that you could get away with anything. I think this comes across in various ways to different people and enhances the impact of the recording, although it's only a piece of the larger puzzle of why people seem to care about this one thing in particular.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sopan Deb has the transcript of the statement (sadly not screen reader compatible, since it's an image).
posted by zachlipton at 9:28 PM on October 7, 2016


For your Reynolds Pamphlet gif needs.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


One thing I am certain of is Trump is miss-stepping in part because the men he's surrounded himself with are all normalized to the behavior in the video and are telling him everyone says things like that and it's not a big deal.
posted by sallybrown at 9:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [18 favorites]


(Add in, as noted above, hostage-video optics, shitty city backdrop worthy of '90s Nightline and nothing better, and... well... yeah. Even when given hours to produce a 90 second nothingburger of a statement, it is total, total shit.)
posted by jammer at 9:29 PM on October 7, 2016


He can't feign sympathy or remorse for one literal minute when his entire life and legacy is on the line

lol
posted by theodolite at 9:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


If NBC do nightly broadcasts of Trump's blooper reels he's pretty fucked.
posted by Talez at 9:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


theodolite: "He can't feign sympathy for even one literal minute when his entire life and legacy is on the line"

To be fair, the first time you do anything you're probably going to suck at it.
posted by mhum at 9:31 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


For your Reynolds Pamphlet gif needs.

OH, man, they could make the cold open of SNL tomorrow just be them staging that song straight.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [12 favorites]


Don Lemon predicting a Ryan Un-endorsement!

Squeeeee!

Oh please oh please ...
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:32 PM on October 7, 2016


If this was the statement he puts out when he's got speechwriters, advisors, and a teleprompter, what the hell does he say Sunday night when it's just him and a microphone he will surely blame?
posted by zachlipton at 9:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Clinton's team has probably been prepared to handle allegations about Bill Clinton since 2008 if not 2000.

It boggles the mind that the way forward for Trump is not an attempt at contrition but the attempt to actually minimize and deflect scrutiny of his past actions and words by going "Well sure what I said was pretty bad but Bill Clinton is way worse."

What's even more disgusting is that his enabler crew will continue to double down on their desire to minimize his bad acts.

You have to wonder at what level do Republican leaders simply abandon Trump and accept the inevitable asskicking on November 8th or will they ride off the cliff together.
posted by vuron at 9:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chaffetz on MSNBC: "Yeah, my colleagues have been texting and calling, saying 'Way to have a spine!'" wrt to withdrawing his endorsement. What a piece of shit, but at least he acknowledges he's a spineless piece of shit.
posted by wallabear at 9:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is the apology of a literal, actual psychopath.
posted by dersins at 9:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


If Paul Ryan unendorses, that might actually be the moment. I'm not counting on it though.
posted by cashman at 9:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


laid off workers whose jobs have gone to other countries

I'm sure he has.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 9:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don Lemon predicting a Ryan Un-endorsement

Too late for that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:34 PM on October 7, 2016


So I've turned off the news and now I'm reading this and watching old-school Star Trek and watching Kirk "move on" some alien woman and now I need a double-Silkwood-shower and feel sad.

TL;DR Now Trump has ruined Star Trek for me.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ryan can't corral the freedom caucus deplorables as it is. Doing ANYTHING to hand the election to HRC will never happen.
posted by phearlez at 9:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's the thing about an apology. A true apology should stand alone, not open up a referendum on why what you did isn't really that bad.
posted by mochapickle at 9:35 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


the GOP doesn't care if it alienates nonwhites. It cares if it alienates white women."

I am seeing this sentiment a lot, and it really bothers me. It's not about "white women's feels". It's about him admitting he's a goddamned rapist, and if admitting you are a goddamned rapist isn't enough to get you booted, I don't want to live on this fucking planet anymore.
posted by corb at 9:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [34 favorites]


O gotta keel over, See you sunday, courage, courage!
posted by vrakatar at 9:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Josh Patten ‏@thejoshpatten 23 minutes ago
Why wasn't Melania in that apology video? Maybe she had nothing to say. Maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say, you tell me.
posted by ctmf at 9:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [71 favorites]


Let's be more cynical: most House members are in uncompetitive districts; those who have real contests see turnout numbers and expect trickle-down support on the ballot.

There's lazy complicity, soft complicity and hard complicity. It's all complicity.

Oh, I'm plenty cynical, but it's hard to deny that there hasn't been at least some hints of anti-Trump feeling among a few Republicans. I don't deny they've been complicit in his rise to this point, but I can't fault them for finally abandoning him even so since it's coming without leadership endorsement.

I mean Ted Cruz pretty obviously sucked it up so he could run again in 2020, so the pressure seems real, and if there is that need for pressure, there must be some reason for it. Trump is pretty extreme even for a lot of GOP types, if not in "policy" then in attitude and history. None of which is to say the party should get a pass on this of course.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him? Have they been looking for an excuse to bail?

They think he's going to lose.

If they thought he had a chance to win despite these comments they would stay on the Trump Train.
posted by Justinian at 9:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


corb - you said that the party could legally replace him on the ticket. Can you explain how? The comments about the procedure throughout today's thread all say it can't be done.
posted by tzikeh at 9:38 PM on October 7, 2016


As Dave Zirin points out - not a word of that "apology" was for Nancy O'Dell.
posted by sallybrown at 9:38 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


GOP Rep Barbara Comstock of Virginia withdraws her endorsement.

There's more to it, as well:
"This is disgusting, vile, and disqualifying. No woman should ever be subjected to this type of obscene behavior and it is unbecoming of anybody seeing high office. In light of these comments, Donald Trump should step aside and allow our party to replace him with Mike Pence or another appropriate nominee from the Republican Party. I cannot in good conscience vote for Donald Trump and I would never vote for Hillary Clinton."
posted by cashman at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The worst part in his statement for me isn't the Clinton attacks, it's his assertion that "we're living in the real world. This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today." As if we have to "get real" and focus on the things that he thinks really matter, because having a President who doesn't boast about sexually assaulting women is a distraction and unimportant.
posted by zachlipton at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [37 favorites]


According to the idiotic "trending" list Facebook insists on showing me, 15 times as many people are "talking about" Wikileaks right now (1 million) as about Donald Trump (66K). This seems...unlikely.
posted by dersins at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Awake at 5:34am here in England to follow this historic moment (reality: am awake because I ate a Hamdog at the fairground last night and am not feeling that great). A friend in Florida and I are having our usual - no, frequent - 2016 online conversation:

Me: Trump said that?! WTF, America?
Her: Two politicians from the same party stepped outside their meeting to have a fight in the Euro Parliament building?! WTF, Britain?

And so, 2016 continutes.
posted by Wordshore at 9:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [17 favorites]


They cannot legally replace him now. Voting has already started.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


WTF is up with that makeup? Looks like paint by numbers.
posted by wallabear at 9:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Switched over to CNN because MSNBC was getting too Chris Matthews for me.

Trump surrogate is getting fucking reamed by the Clinton's surrogates.
posted by Talez at 9:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The talking heads on CNN are going crazy right now, yikes.
posted by sallybrown at 9:42 PM on October 7, 2016


I will give a detailed description (re replacement process) before I sleep - on the move and this thread kills my cellphone.
posted by corb at 9:42 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


Holy shit Ana Navarro is absolutely livid. Holy shit.
posted by Talez at 9:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Someone may need to break it gently to America's conservatives that they can't rewrite the country's laws about ballots and voting, just because they made an amoral decision they now regret. That's not how law and order works.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [38 favorites]


I watched the apology video--shudder. And then I got up from the couch and clicked through on the donate link in the "sick-to-your-stomach feeling" email from the Hillary campaign.

A few hours ago, I watched the Women have the power to stop Trump ad and cried. My 11 year old daughter was in the living room, rewatching the SNL debate skit and laughing her head off. I wish I could keep her from ever having to know that men will not only boorishly interrupt you, but will also stare at your breasts and touch you against your will and say shitty, horrible things and then offer "if you were offended" non-apologies. I hope against hope that this "surely this" is the start of more conversations about rape culture and sexism and the ridiculous, infuriating, soul-sucking bullshit women endure every day just for being women in the world.

I am convinced there is no way Trump gets elected. We're going out canvassing as a family tomorrow. I want his defeat to be resounding.
posted by danielleh at 9:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


Holy cow Scottie Nell Hughes and Ann Navarro are literally screaming at each other on CNN because Ann won't stop saying "pussy."
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Stick with it, Corb. How do they win against someone who never gives up?

(I tell myself this. A lot.)
posted by Devonian at 9:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy cow Scottie Nell Hughes and Ann Navarro are literally screaming at each other on CNN because Ann won't stop saying "pussy."

It's actually Ana not Ann.
posted by Talez at 9:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't have CNN at home but I'm dogsitting for a friend who has it so this is my first introduction to the utterly delightful Ana Navarro and her fearless willingness to quote the word "pussy."
posted by HotToddy at 9:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


GOP Rep Barbara Comstock of Virginia withdraws her endorsement.

Never actually endorsed. She's been dodging any association with Trump because she's in a contested race. Good to she she has a bit of spine.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Where the hell did Ana go? Don Lemon! You got some splain to do!
posted by Talez at 9:50 PM on October 7, 2016


Mike Lee, ON TRUMP'S SUPREME COURT SHORT LIST, says Trump should drop out. (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [16 favorites]


EarBucket: Anecdata: I have several Evangelical friends who have announced on Facebook that this is the last straw, they're voting for Hillary.

Welcome, new friends! Our tent is big and welcoming. It's never too late to repent (too much?)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Don Lemon is really pushing Scottie to be real.
posted by Talez at 9:52 PM on October 7, 2016


video of the CNN argument about the word pussy
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [40 favorites]


Also: we can legally replace Trump. Replacement cannot win but could save the GOP from being on fire.

Nothing personal, but I really want the GOP to be on fire.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [23 favorites]


Farenthold on MSNBC (again): We got the tape today, told the Trump campaign they had it at 1:30pm and gave them a transcript of the relevant bits. They asked for the video and The Post gave them the whole video, then they confirmed it and provided the first "locker room banter" statement and The Post ran the story.

"I'm not even sure I knew what it would become by the end of the day. I'm amazed to see how big of a story it's become."
posted by zachlipton at 9:53 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm gonna turn on CNNHL, so I can watch something more uplifting and optimistic, like Forensic Files
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bookmark and reminder that there's no call to celebrate until the Senate has been retaken
posted by infinitewindow at 9:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


It wasn't a live statement. His handlers should have edited out the Clinton attack and just ended it at his pledge to be a better man.
posted by humanfont at 9:54 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't deny they've been complicit in his rise to this point, but I can't fault them for finally abandoning him even so since it's coming without leadership endorsement.

Then we come round to the Josh Marshall 'technical debt' argument that, in essence, large chunks of the institutional GOP created the conditions for Trump's rise and for months upon months skated on that ice until the sunlight melted it.
posted by holgate at 9:55 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


Don Lemon is really pushing Scottie to be real.

And she kept being a fake weasel. Some people you just can't reach, who will drown themselves, no matter how much rope you throw them.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


That "apology" video was so wooden and insincere that I can only assume that Conway was standing next to the camera man, holding Trump's phone in a pair of blacksmithing tongs and waving a blowtorch near it with a look of grim determination on her face.
posted by KathrynT at 9:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [36 favorites]


Interestingly, MSNBC standards appears to be quite clear that nobody can use the word "pussy" on TV (O'Donnell just described it as "I can't even say on television"), while CNN obviously has no such policy.
posted by zachlipton at 9:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Hayes: It is so revealing all these Republicans saying "I have a wife & daughter & mother"

You don't know any Muslims? Any Mexican immigrants?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [74 favorites]


Now feed that through a text to speech engine and you'll have a more convincing reading than the one on the video.

Ask and ye shall receive.
posted by jammer at 9:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


@willrahn
BUSH COMPOUND, DECEMBER 2015 —

JEB: We must stop Trump. Any ideas?

GWB: Nope

GHWB: Sorry no

BILLY: Nope, no idea, nothing, zilch, zero
posted by acidic at 9:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [19 favorites]


I took a stab at Trump's absolute bottom-out scenario. He's still going to win 145 electoral votes if he kills the guy on 5th Avenue tomorrow.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


@RealRonHoward:
"Trumps says "Anyone who knows me knows these words don’t reflect who I am,” Sorry but i know people who do know him -it is exactly who he is"
posted by chris24 at 9:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [53 favorites]


Good to she she has a bit of spine.

Let's remember that Barbara Comstock earned her stripes as a professional Clinton hater in the 90s. She was a researcher for Frank Wolf, them primaried him out of his seat. She is a ratfucker among ratfuckers.
posted by holgate at 10:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


WTF is up with that makeup? Looks like paint by numbers.

Look at his shirt - that's an artifact from the compression algorithm. Which means sloppy post-production on top of the poor lighting. Gonna hold in my film student judgment but rest assured that whoever made that video doesn't know what they're doing.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Scottie and millions of other voters - yes, even female voters - just do not give a fuck. They simply hate Hillary Clinton, or Muslims, or Mexicans, or perhaps all of those things combined far more than they hate a sexist republican candidate talking this way and that's pretty much the end of it. There are no mental gymnastics involved here; they do not know how to do mental gymnastics to begin with. They have arrived with their hatred of Clinton/The Other with far more clarity than they would ever have for actual misogyny, or as Scottie is dismissing it, "locker room talk".

Call it internalizing, call it cognitive dissonance, call it whatever you want - but to me, it's just a capital H Hatred that is blinding them entirely and not much more.
posted by windbox at 10:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


When you've angered Ron Howard you know you're in trouble.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:00 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


Honestly I would avoid 5th Avenue for a while.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


"Trumps says "Anyone who knows me knows these words don’t reflect who I am,”

But I thought he had the best words.
posted by mochapickle at 10:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


that whoever made that video doesn't know what they're doing.

But his son is so good with computers!
posted by dis_integration at 10:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's an absolute shame that this guy gets to stand on the same debate stage as Hillary and pretend to be a legitimate option.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:02 PM on October 7, 2016 [39 favorites]


When you've angered Ron Howard you know you're in trouble.

Again, this is the season of Arrested Development that would have needed to go to HBO or Showtime.
posted by holgate at 10:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mark Cuban, @mcuban:
"Every single @realDonaldTrump hotel and golf course is toast. Done. Over. Bernie Madoff now has a better brand."
posted by chris24 at 10:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [48 favorites]


that whoever made that video doesn't know what they're doing.

What happens when you've been through 4 campaign management teams and your first 10 options turned you down before that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:04 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


(Fun fact: google image search "horse's ass" and the image I used comes up in the first dozen results.)
posted by jammer at 10:05 PM on October 7, 2016


I'd kind of like to see a Trump/Navarro debate now.
posted by ctmf at 10:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Some states allow faithless electors, yes, but many don't.

The exact details don't look up too readily, but it seems that while many states have laws against casting a faithless electoral vote, only a few have laws invalidating a faithlessly cast electoral vote. Like "illicit but valid" in Catholicism...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


that's an artifact from the compression algorithm.

Could it be Facebook's crappy compression instead of (or along with) the campaign's ineptitude?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:06 PM on October 7, 2016


When you've angered Ron Howard you know you're in trouble.

Donald had gone too far, and he had best watch his mouth.
posted by ipe at 10:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [28 favorites]


Pretty sure my love for Jenny Slate is boundless at this point.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump should step aside and allow our party to replace him with Mike Pence or another appropriate nominee from the Republican Party. I cannot in good conscience vote for Donald Trump

And yet she can in "good conscience" call Pence appropriate and vote for him. Pence may not assault women directly but he is just as terrible.
posted by juiceCake at 10:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [7 favorites]


Then we come round to the Josh Marshall 'technical debt' argument that, in essence, large chunks of the institutional GOP created the conditions for Trump's rise and for months upon months skated on that ice until the sunlight melted it.

Sure, but like any debtors, if they make good their repayment the debt can be satisfied. If these people are abandoning Trump for personal gain, then they get nothing, but if this is, for whatever reason, a moment that makes them break with the people and policies that enabled Trump and work towards support for equality, then we should be willing to accept that help as reimbursement. I won't hold my breathe for many to go that route, but maybe a handful will finally have realized how far their party has strayed from the demands of basic human decency and work to improve things. That's what Egg McMuffin would do.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:12 PM on October 7, 2016


(And, though it should hardly be any surprise, Donnie's here is my statement tweet is from iOS.)
posted by jammer at 10:15 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh hey, in other news, spotted my first Trump-Pence bumper sticker today, in Port Washington, Long Island. For good measure, the dude was sporting two stickers, one on each side. It's lonely out there being a Trump man.
posted by monospace at 10:16 PM on October 7, 2016


That's what Egg McMuffin would do.

Absolutely, but Egg McMuffin never went through the primaries and Rubio and Jeb! and Kasich and Cruz did. The GOP electorate was engaged -- non-primary voters showed up for primaries! -- and they voted for Trump. "dissolve the people / And elect another."
posted by holgate at 10:18 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's an absolute shame that this guy gets to stand on the same debate stage as Hillary and pretend to be a legitimate option.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:02 AM on October 8 [7 favorites +] [!]

Yeah, it's going to be like watching Ronda Roussey fight Woody Allen. Satisfying in many ways, sure, but not really a fair match.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [20 favorites]


After realizing that my beloved Manhattans were making me an angry drunk, I switched over to Cocchi over ice, and it's done the trick. It does a good job of mirroring the mood I find most appropriate for tonight: light, refreshing, almost effervescent, but with a strong backbone of bitterness and spite.
posted by jammer at 10:19 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos: "I don't really see them actually discouraging people voting for Trump. A denunciation of his racism, sure, but no additional step of "so therefore, we cannot in good faith suggest people vote for him"."

This is literally against the law. Religious leaders can't use their religious platform to endorse (or unendorse) candidates. They can lose federal tax exempt status for doing so, and they can pay hefty campaign finance fines. It's wrong to demand left-leaning churches break the law just because some right-wing evangelical preachers routinely do so.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [25 favorites]


Could it be Facebook's crappy compression instead of (or along with) the campaign's ineptitude?

The version he tweeted has the same artifact, so probably not.

not super important but I'm trying to figure out that backdrop. If it was an actual window at night, we'd be getting glare; if it was a painted backdrop there wouldn't be that window seam on the left; and if it was green-screened I expect the edges would show. Either way that's the only sign of competence. The lighting is definitely poor anyway.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:21 PM on October 7, 2016


That's what Egg McMuffin would do.

Tonight I was talking to my parents about the Governor of Utah pulling his endorsement. "And hey you never know maybe the vote will split between Johnson, Egg Muffin and Trump and Hillary will win'

Mom: What? Egg who?

Me: Um..E...um...I can't remember his real name. I just know him as Egg McMuffin...
posted by Jalliah at 10:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [58 favorites]


I don't know why y'all were even wondering what he was gonna say. The domestic abuser script really always goes the same way: "You know that wasn't really me. I'm not really like that. And besides, that was the past. I'll be better in future. I can change if you just give me a chance. And anyway, it was that other person's fault."
posted by threeturtles at 10:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [91 favorites]


One funny little detail here is that, in the video, the bus pulls up in front of the studio where NBC used to film The Tonight Show in Burbank. I visited that studio somewhere around 2005 and the host had a nice reserved parking space right by the door where he'd park a different rolling exhibit of his enormous car collection. In other words, I think that's Jay Leno's car over Trump's shoulder.
posted by zachlipton at 10:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Religious leaders can't use their religious platform to endorse (or unendorse) candidates. They can lose federal tax exempt status for doing so, and they can pay hefty campaign finance fines.

Well, not all churches. Some get away with more political interference than others.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:29 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


/r/the_donald have a new theory.
posted by humanfont at 10:30 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


/r/the_donald have a new theory.

Pfff Donald's chess game is only 4D?
posted by jason_steakums at 10:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


and someone else with a giant Gary Johnson head

That was my friends and me! We took turns holding the head up on camera but if you ever saw it being held by a hand wearing a wedding ring then that was me!
posted by Jacqueline at 10:36 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


Even the Republican crisis management specialist on CNN admits a write-in campaign is unworkable, all the ballots are printed, and Trump is the Republican candidate. I'm shocked.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:36 PM on October 7, 2016


Cody Johnston ‏@drmistercody
Literally the first sentence of @realDonaldTrump's apology was a lie.
posted by Talez at 10:37 PM on October 7, 2016 [11 favorites]


Attention Ex-Trump Supporters. (A) Stay Home. or (B) Protest vote: Write in Bernie Sanders.
posted by mikelieman at 10:38 PM on October 7, 2016


C) Get over yourselves and fucking vote for Clinton.
posted by dersins at 10:39 PM on October 7, 2016 [46 favorites]


/r/the_donald have a new theory.

My day started far too long ago to put it together myself, but this has all of the makings of a great stages of grief/bargaining phase/Art of the Deal joke.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:40 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


There's a lot of people with an irrational, blind hatred of the Clintons. They're not going to get over themselves. They *are* the Keyes Constant.
posted by mikelieman at 10:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


stages of grief/bargaining phase/

It's just a little dirty, it's still good. It's still good.
It's just a little slimy, it's still good, it's still good.
It's just a little airborn, it's still good, it's still good.

It's gone.
posted by mikelieman at 10:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


It is entirely possible that the denizens of this thread represent the largest group of people who know who Evan McMullin is outside of the state of Utah.


I live in Utah and I had to tell my wife who Evan McMullin was today. My parents have never heard of him. He's been on the news a couple of times but I'd say most Utahns have still never heard of him.

So we might actually be Egg's only fan club period.

I wonder if he really would be the best "replacement" for the Republicans though -- he is actually on the ballot in 11 states, unlike any other potential replacement. They couldn't win with him but they might be able to look a tiny bit more respectable.
posted by mmoncur at 10:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


I almost never go into political threads on Reddit but haha holy shit was it worth it just now
posted by jason_steakums at 10:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [13 favorites]


Here's your big October Surprise: ELECTION FRAUD! (Actually a fraudulent fraud.)
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:46 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's a lot of people with an irrational, blind hatred of the Clintons.

yep. the email server/benghazi howlers are just like the chemtrail obsessives and moon landing deniers. you can't engage them with facts, they inhabit an alternate universe of their own creation.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


What gets me about this, beyond all the men on the bus laughing with him, beyond Bush telling that woman to hug Trump after all of that, beyond the fact that it all initially rolled off my back because of course he's like this, women have said this all along, and of course no one will care, is all of these men pretendikg to to be shocked.

Bullshit. I've heard and seen worse, over and over again.

Bull. Shit.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:49 PM on October 7, 2016 [43 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell: "Access Hollywood says they have dozens and dozens more hours of video like this of Donald Trump..." Bring. It. On.

They could create a whole different kind of Trump TV from what we've been talking about.

The writers really know how to up their game during sweeps, huh?
posted by Superplin at 10:50 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


@willrahn
BUSH COMPOUND, DECEMBER 2015 —

JEB: We must stop Trump. Any ideas?

GWB: Nope

GHWB: Sorry no

BILLY: Nope, no idea, nothing, zilch, zero

I wonder if JEB! didn't use this because Billy didn't give it to him, because for Billy (and for a distressingly large number of men and some women) this is "normal guy talk" and thus not something shocking.
posted by dhens at 10:51 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


So we might actually be Egg's only fan club period.

I wonder if he really would be the best "replacement" for the Republicans though -- he is actually on the ballot in 11 states, unlike any other potential replacement. They couldn't win with him but they might be able to look a tiny bit more respectable.

I would be thrilled if, by some miracle, Evan McMullin could get any traction as an alternate vote for Republicans in states where he's eligible. From what I've seen of his campaign, such as it is, he's clearly the second best choice for any voter this election and if his brand of conservatism could actually gain some ground in the GOP, then I think we could all worry a lot less about any given election portending dire things for the US.

I'd seriously think about declaring myself as a Republican after this election if I thought I could help make candidates like McMullin the face of the GOP instead of the asshats they have now. The country can't afford to have extreme reactionaries dictating the direction, or lack thereof, of our government any more.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


I almost never go into political threads on Reddit but haha holy shit was it worth it just now

For anyone who doesn't care to go digging: the guy bet $2,800 on Trump winning the election and was "already checking out cars to buy in November," according to his previous reddit posts.
posted by lemonadeheretic at 10:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [44 favorites]


Not sure whether to go with the solid-Midwestern JeeeeeeeezusChrist.
Or maybe the Northeastern Jaaayzus.
Or the Californian What. the. Fuck.
Or the British You've seen this, right?
Or the Austrian Yeah, we have to do something about this.

Or maybe my own lived lots of places boiled down to: HOLY SHIT, Y'ALL. This is it, right? We're done here?
posted by rp at 10:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


/r/the_donald have a new theory.

I have visited /pol/ for you. The extended part of the 4D chess strategy is all so that the Donald can segue and bring up Bill's past and Hillary's harassment and enabling.

It's hard for me to figure out who's shitposting and who's goading others laughing their ass off or possibly both.
posted by The arrows are too fast at 10:59 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


The writers really know how to up their game during sweeps, huh?

You can understand a staffer being willing to punt to Fahrenthold. NBC has been no-comment the past few months -- not willing to clarify donations to the Trump Foundation, in particular -- that there'd be the fear that executives might spike any story of that nature.
posted by holgate at 11:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


lemonadeheretic: For anyone who doesn't care to go digging: the guy bet $2,800 on Trump winning the election and was "already checking out cars to buy in November," according to his previous reddit posts.

That is glorious.

I have to assume there's some A+ moderation happening in real time over on Trump's Facebook page, too. All the comments are supportive, blaming Democrats for making a big deal out of nothing, saying that Clinton has done worse, etc. etc. nothingHamburgerHelper.*

*too low quality for a burger, even of the nothing variety
posted by Superplin at 11:01 PM on October 7, 2016


OKAY SO PROCESS.

First and foremost: Rule 9 has an "otherwise" exception that may or may not be able to be used to replace Trump against his will. There is some debate about this, and Trump would probably sue. A majority vote of RNC members must be used, OR reconvening the national convention, which means basically reaching out to all of us delegates to determine our vote. ALL DELEGATES WOULD LEGALLY BE UNBOUND IN THIS SCENARIO, which is why I doubt they would toss it to the delegates, and we have no mechanism for forcing them to do so. Let's assume it's the RNC. The majority process here is NOT the usual majority process you're thinking of - it is not by members, but by allotted votes.

So, Washington, for example, had 44 delegates. It also has 3 RNC members, like every state. If they agree, then the three members cast 44 votes. If they disagree, each of Washington's RNC members would deliver 14.6 votes. YES IT GOES TO FRACTIONS.

This meeting can be called by 16 members of the RNC, representing no less than 16 states, and the chairman is required to heed it. However, we saw what having the legal number of petitions got us in the roll call vote fiasco, so there's realpolitik to consider.

ALSO -a lot of people are talking about how Pence would move up the ticket. This is not required or by any means necessary. If Trump is removed from the ticket, the delegates or RNC members select the next candidate, and they can choose whomever they wish.

Because ballots are already printed, this would be a nightmare fucking mess, and the candidate would not be on all state's ballots. I personally am okay with this, I think Trump is a stain and needs to be erased. Others may not be.

Another, though sketchier process, is for them to announce that they are encouraging faithless electors - for most of whom, it's a fine, not jail time.

So basically, the RNC can replace him, but the GOP would have to accept a lot of negative consequences in order to do so. I don't think the leaders would be excited about this unless there was a candidate they thought would be like the magical bullet to defeat Clinton. Maybe zombie Reagan. Who knows.
posted by corb at 11:01 PM on October 7, 2016 [121 favorites]


OK, one final cogent thought before I head off to bed. We're seeing a lot of spineless cowards today willing to do the "oh no you di'nt" dance without actually backing their words with the action of actually withdrawing support from Trump. Yet... a few have, just as a redoubt few have actually shown thier merit as the (SANE) loyal opposition already by disowning Trump from the start.

Their numbers are sure to be outstripped by those who will bend over backwards to find some way to keep sucking at the teat, but for the good guys -- or, at least, the bad guys who aren't actually EVIL guys -- how do we reward them? I don't want to give them money, because god DAMN do I still disagree with them. But... how do those of us who are progressive but actually feel the need to reward those who have, you know, an actual conscience and spirit on the other side go about doing it?

Can we at least work on getting a list of such folks together so we can know whom to (perhaps grudgingly) support in future debates?
posted by jammer at 11:03 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


corb you are wonderful.
posted by vrakatar at 11:05 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


But... how do those of us who are progressive but actually feel the need to reward those who have, you know, an actual conscience and spirit on the other side go about doing it?

Leave their names out of the list of the worst offenders. That's all they deserve at this very, very late juncture.

And never forget that they all continue to voice full throated support for the Ryan budget and fully intended to enact it were Trump elected, because that would dwarf anything Trump has said or done to date in terms of humanitarian crisis.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:07 PM on October 7, 2016 [21 favorites]


So the RNC could replace him, but it doesn't sound remotely feasible they could replace him and solve the ballot problem such that their would be any hope of Clinton losing (I use the "hope of" phrasing here since from a Republican perspective, that is something to hope for). The best replacing him could do is allow down ticket candidates a more credible way of repudiating Trump and maybe not losing turn-out.

Also yes, thank you corb. I became a PCO recently here and it's at least partially by your example of activism, among other examples (and long simmering frustration).
posted by R343L at 11:08 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


So basically, the RNC can replace him, but the GOP would have to accept a lot of negative consequences in order to do so.

I think we're truly in the hands of state election law now, and are the GOP really going to fight for changes to the ballots in, say, Wyoming? If not, they're tacitly accepting Trump on the electoral map, and I don't even know which states bind electors. It's Fantasy Island, compared to a kind of institutional repudiation of the top of the ticket with the hope that GOP voters still show up to vote down the ballot, and good luck with that in certain states.
posted by holgate at 11:10 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


You know, corb, that may be a good question for you. How can those of us who are liberal / democrats / whatever and wouldn't normally be on the same "side" as you, but who recognize reasoned opposition versus batshit id-crazed fuckgoblins, help you defeat them and take your party back so we can have actual principled fights about the future of the republic, not frantic rear-guard actions to stave off takeover by brownshirts?

(None of this said to be in any way disrespectful to you or those like you, corb, and please add me to the list, should you be in Chicago, of the folks you can call on to buy you a drink for your efforts and labor.)
posted by jammer at 11:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


States with laws against faithless electors
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


zombieflanders: @MaeveReston: Statement from Ohio @senrobportman on Trump comments on tape: “The comments were offensive and wrong and he was right to apologize.” Except he never actually apologized. I hope Strickland can make it stick somehow.

Trump didn't apologize, twice. The first statement was a "just guys having a locker room chat" non-apology ("sorry if it hurt when I punched you in the face, maybe you need a tougher face"), and the second was an angry robot "you are all dicks for talking about things dudes said in private" super vague "I was wrong about a thing I said" comment, which was really a lead in for "but the Clintons, who are both running for President, are way worse."

Sink all the endorsers of Trump.


gusottertrout: Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him? Have they been looking for an excuse to bail?

Until there's a recording of someone saying something, comments from others can be brushed off as "allegations." But when you get something on tape, it's "he said now vs he said in the past" discussion.


PlusDistance: So I've turned off the news and now I'm reading this and watching old-school Star Trek and watching Kirk "move on" some alien woman and now I need a double-Silkwood-shower and feel sad.

I watched Westworld (1973 movie) earlier today, and there's a bit about one of the "sex model" robots not responding to "guest seduction" that I thought was darkly funny in light of Trump's prior comments, before this audio tape. Now, the movie feels more dated and gross for how it handled that scene (or how it pushed the response to the audience).
posted by filthy light thief at 11:14 PM on October 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


The interesting thing about the ballot access problem, if the RNC gets a spine and actually votes this asshole out, is twofold: first, courts have historically been extremely generous to parties looking to replace candidates on the ballots after the deadline. However, the opposing party (Democrats) would be able to challenge it. The optics of the Democrats challenging the replacement of Trump would not be good, though, because in order to challenge the replacement, the Democrats would have to argue, in a court of law, that Trump is competent to serve as President.
posted by corb at 11:17 PM on October 7, 2016 [15 favorites]


I mean, he meets the legal requirements to be on the ballot. That's inarguable, right?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:20 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


OK, so I'm monitoring the deplorables elsewhere, because I feed off of schadenfreude like it was ambrosia, and they all keep bringing up how red-blooded American men admire beautiful women and that's fine and look here are a bunch of other people saying the word "pussy," and I just want to scream! IT'S NOT ABOUT THE WORD PUSSY. It's not about Trump being lewd and vulgar. It's that he describes "going after" a married woman in a way that is at the very least coercive if not outright rapey, TO HER COLLEAGUE, and then strongly suggests that he considers it just fine to kiss and aggressively fondle women without their consent.

People keep saying "Every man I know talks like this." To which the only possible response is "No wonder you're a Trump supporter; you and everyone you know is a despicable piece of shit."
posted by KathrynT at 11:21 PM on October 7, 2016 [128 favorites]


Haven't courts historically mostly only had to consider replacements like in circumstances like death or resignation of a candidate? That is, in this scenario we're talking about here, the party would be forcing the candidate out after duly nominating him and (surprisingly, still) in the absence of any actual criminal charges (much less conviction). That is, historically the courts would have been generous because what else is the party supposed to have done and how could they have prevented needing to replace the candidate?
posted by R343L at 11:22 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Though I absolutely agree a Democratic challenge would have a fine line to argue to keep Trump on a ballot which would have to be more about how the Republicans should not be allowed to run a trashfire of a candidate, forcing the opposition to deal with a bunch of bullshit only to replace him later, etc. and avoid any question about whether Trump is competent to serve (just technically barely by the rules legal to serve).
posted by R343L at 11:23 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


The ballots have already been printed. People have already started voting with them in some states, and a good number of absentee ballots have already been sent out or go out in the next week. It would be a state-by-state game of Calvinball and it's hard to imagine what comes out of that process when it comes to producing an actual national election result. Which Trump votes would count for Trump and which ones for a replacement? Would people have any idea who they are voting for?
posted by zachlipton at 11:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's some value from the left in telling people who stood aside -- strategists like Ana Navarro and Mike Murphy and Stuart Stephens and John Weaver, even elected Republicans like Ben Sasse and Jeff Flake and John Kasich -- that yes, we'll have plenty to argue about, but it would be good to have a politics based upon those arguments. But ultimately it's not the job of the left to pick its opposition, other than electing people who then choose who to speak to.

in order to challenge the replacement, the Democrats would have to argue, in a court of law, that Trump is competent to serve as President.

They'd surely just have to argue that the GOP primary electorate is sufficiently competent to choose its party's nominee.
posted by holgate at 11:25 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


gusottertrout: Why is this what's making Republicans speak up against him? Have they been looking for an excuse to bail?

Oh, just an FYI for clarity sake, that wasn't my question, I was just responding to it. I forget who was asking.


I watched Westworld (1973 movie) earlier today, and there's a bit about one of the "sex model" robots not responding to "guest seduction" that I thought was darkly funny in light of Trump's prior comments, before this audio tape. Now, the movie feels more dated and gross for how it handled that scene (or how it pushed the response to the audience).

To be fair to the movie, as I saw it anyway, I think it subverts that reaction somewhat as it goes along, with the robots gaining some sympathy from the audience given how many of the "tourists" are creeps. Fairly ambiguous overall I think, with "fairly" having both meanings in this sense.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:26 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


And he apologized for SAYING it. Not for any of the actions he said he did.

Two of the five women on CNN, including Ana Navarro, were talking about how the tape was about his actions of nonconsensual groping and kissing.

There is a lot of fuzzing between contemptuous speech and contemptuous acts out there, but I am glad some of those panel members weren't letting it slide. Unfortunately:



Once again, Trump supporter Scottie Nell Hughes tried to spin this being half as bad as Hillary Clinton and her policies over the years. However, Trump surrogate and supporter Kayleigh McEnany wasn’t willing to join in lock-step with her. McEnany went so far as to say that Trump’s apology wasn’t enough and that he must “humble himself” before the American people and apologize with earnest.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:27 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reading between the lines of Donnie's new statement:

Here is my statement.
I’ve never said I’m a perfect person, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not. [I'm a terrible person, and everyone loves me for it.] I’ve said and done things I regret, and the words released today on this more than a decade-old video are one of them. [People said awful things about me again, and about me from the past. I'm here now, in the present. Why do people say such mean things about old Donald? New Donald is a different thing.] Anyone who knows me, know these words don’t reflect who I am.
I said it, it was wrong, and I apologize. [Here's a vague apology for some thing I said, and I'm brilliant because this apology can be re-used for any future damning evidence of me from the past, which is sure to exist.]
I’ve travelled the country talking about change for America. But my travels have also changed me. [This is me pivoting, spinning like a fucking pro - what were we talking about? You forgot? BAM!] I’ve spent time with grieving mothers who’ve lost their children, laid off workers whose jobs have gone to other countries, and people from all walks of life who just want a better future. I have gotten to know the great people of our country, and I’ve been humbled by the faith they’ve placed in me. [This is me, humble like a fox. Let me guard your chickens, I've heard all about them.] I pledge to be a better man tomorrow, and will never, ever let you down. [Trump pirouette, ta-da! I'm a good person, have faith in me. Forget anything I did before this very moment, I am always getting better.]
Let’s be honest. We’re living in the real world. [This is me, telling it like it is, which the people love, they eat this shit up.] This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we are facing today. We are losing our jobs, we are less safe than we were 8 years ago and Washington is broken. [How many rotations is that? Can you keep track? And this is me on script!]
Hillary Clinton, and her kind, have run our country into the ground. [That's right, I said "her kind," like she's some alien creature, not to be trusted. Bam!]
I’ve said some foolish things, but there is a big difference between words and actions. ["I said some foolish things" is a nice way of me saying I'm a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, asshole who will say anything for attention and ratings. Anyway, words don't hurt, not like my little grabby hands.] Bill Clinton has actually abused women and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed and intimidated his victims. [Deflect! Deflect! Mirror! Mirror!] We will discuss this more in the coming days. [And you can look forward to more deflection and mirror attacks. I'm rubber, Hillary is glue!]
See you at the debate on Sunday. [And bring your attractive women, I want to ogle and grope them.]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:28 PM on October 7, 2016 [8 favorites]


and will never, ever let you down.

Do you think the rickrolling was a deliberate attempt to distract the listener?
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:32 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


Holy Shit. r/Republican appears rational (imgur hosted screencap)
posted by mikelieman at 11:33 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know, corb, that may be a good question for you. How can those of us who are liberal / democrats / whatever and wouldn't normally be on the same "side" as you, but who recognize reasoned opposition versus batshit id-crazed fuckgoblins, help you defeat them and take your party back so we can have actual principled fights about the future of the republic, not frantic rear-guard actions to stave off takeover by brownshirts?

I think, honestly and truly, by continuing to reach out to your conservative/ Republican friends and family, and - try talking to them like they're Mefites. Try assuming good faith. Talk as though a mod were watching you. Make it comfortable enough to talk about ideals and visions and your dream for America and why you love it, and maybe some of the fears aren't truly terrible. Let them see that even if a Democrat wins, they're not going to destroy the universe. Make it easier for them to vote against these petty dictators when they rise. And if you see a Democrat legislator talking negatively about all conservatives or all Republicans, even if you agree with everything else he's saying, call him up. Say, "Hey, look, I would really prefer my elected officials to at least acknowledge the humanity of people who are trying to be decent." Just basically - anything that tears little holes in this bunker mentality must be a good thing.
posted by corb at 11:34 PM on October 7, 2016 [73 favorites]


In some ways, I'm surprised by just how incendiary this is.

I said in some earlier thread, back in the late 1800s, that if the election went on long enough there would be a tipping point. It's not the one thing, it's the straw that broke the camel's back.

As I said, he's starting to look like a loser. Once he looks like a loser it's all over.

The crazy part about his "apology" that no one was mentioning on the news was his claim that he's not like that anymore, that was 10 years ago. WHEN HE WAS 60. You weren't a fucking kid you moron.
posted by bongo_x at 11:41 PM on October 7, 2016 [24 favorites]


Holy Shit. r/Republican appears rational

Due to moderators or other spaces sucking the community out. Only two hundred or so so comments across 4-5 relevant threads since the story broke 10 hours ago. There's about 100x more activity in /r/politics.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:42 PM on October 7, 2016


Pepe could not be reached for comment.
posted by mazola at 11:43 PM on October 7, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trying to rewrite state ballots would disenfranchise millions of Americans, because voting is already in progress — it is a reason why there are deadlines in place.

Conservatives don't get to unilaterally change how we run our democracy, just because they aren't happy with their poor impulse control. (Still, I kind of hope they try it, if only because it might be the final straw that finally and deservately sends some of them to prison for electoral fraud.)
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:45 PM on October 7, 2016 [10 favorites]


Due to moderators or other spaces sucking the community out.

From what I've read briefly, the r/Republican mods are doing a pretty good job then. And yeah, if you want a wretched hive, there's plenty other places. Looks like r/Conservative is a little looser.
posted by mikelieman at 11:47 PM on October 7, 2016 [1 favorite]


An accurate graphical representation of my state of mind right now.
posted by yasaman at 11:48 PM on October 7, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, he meets the legal requirements to be on the ballot. That's inarguable, right?

Not as these things have historically gone. This is like a whole other can of election nerdery, but essentially you've had situations like people arguing in court over how much nerve damage it takes to incapacitate someone from sitting in Congress.

There are not really existing rules for this sort of situation, because usually the person with the completely disqualifying problem accepts they have a problem, and withdraws of their own accord. Courts are historically reluctant to force living people to run for office, though they've sometimes, hilariously, refused to allow replacements of dead names. COURTS ARE FUNNY, YO.

It is theoretically possible that the GOP could nominate a rockstar who would sweep the nation even though they're fighting for the ballot in many places. But I just don't see that rockstar. It would have to be someone who was #neverTrump from the beginning to have a chance of winning non-Republicans, for whom endorsing Trump is going to be a no-go right off the bat. It would have to be a non-politician, to have a hope of keeping Trump's voters. In my fanfiction dreams, someone like James Mattis would swing it? But I just really can't see it.

I'm not fighting for this because I think we will win the presidency. We lost the ability to win the presidency when the RNC decided to cheat to stop us from replacing their shitbird nominee. We have the ability to save the Party, but more importantly, we have the ability to try to knock the fucking pustulence of Trump's bullshit back into the grave it crawled out of, and make people feel safe again.
posted by corb at 11:52 PM on October 7, 2016 [31 favorites]


I think think they'd nominate a woman. This feels like the setting for a glass cliff response.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:56 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


There are parts of this election that I would not believe.
posted by mazola at 11:57 PM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]


I do think there's a test for the institutional GOP right now.

I'm willing to grant a kind of amnesty to the elected officials for whom it wouldn't have mattered who the nominee was, and who acted accordingly. But I do not fucking want anyone who treated Trump's nomination as carte blanche to go full metal bigot -- people like Steve King -- to have anything beyond toilet-scrubbing duty in the next Congress. I want anyone who chose to share the stench of Trump to take the political equivalent of a Silkwood shower. Forgiveness is a virtue, but so is atonement.
posted by holgate at 11:58 PM on October 7, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well the New York Times has gone and done it. They've printed the uncensored quotes on the front page of Saturday's paper, at least in the New York late edition.

They've printed "fuck" before (heh, I almost wrote "the F word," but if the Times is going to print it on the front page, why am I talking around it on MeFi?), including when talking about the Lewinski scandal and in at least one fiction excerpt, though as far as I can tell this is the first time they've done it on the front page. This is, to quote our Vice President, a big fucking deal.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 AM on October 8, 2016 [8 favorites]


Steve King absolutely did not need a Trump to go full bigot. He was already there.

Mark Kirk gets props for never boarding the Trump train but c'mon, man, you've been caught in your own microphone gaffe calling women "hos." You're not offended by how Trump talks about women, you're just offended by Trump generally -- and his negative impact on your electoral prospects specifically.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:16 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


@evanmcmurry: Trump's comments have demoralized Trump parody accounts
posted by joedan at 12:18 AM on October 8, 2016 [11 favorites]


Nell Scovell is on to something: "Don't you think he's embarrassed not because he's rapey and repulsive but because now we all know he failed?"

That last bit brought to mind Ernest Hemingway's appraisal of Wyndham Lewis:
Some people show evil as a great race horse shows breeding. They have the dignity of a hard chancre. Lewis did not show evil; he just looked nasty.

Walking home I tried to think what he reminded me of and there were various things. They were all medical except toe-jam and that was a slang word. I tried to break his face down and describe it but I could only get the eyes. Under the black hat, when I had first seen them, the eyes had been those of an unsuccessful rapist.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:19 AM on October 8, 2016 [16 favorites]


You know, after the first debate, I was really hoping that the tax dodging admissions were going to be the tipping point moment, the finally intolerable thing. I was hoping specifically that "That would make me smart" would be like Rob Ford's "I have more than enough [pussy] to eat at home." I think there's something interesting about the parallels here-- both of these aggressive, violent, clearly criminal bullying blond men, both seemingly completely unelectable and unsupportable candidates who could get away with anything UNTIL they started talking about pussy, and that was the final straw.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:34 AM on October 8, 2016 [9 favorites]


Not as these things have historically gone. This is like a whole other can of election nerdery, but essentially you've had situations like people arguing in court over how much nerve damage it takes to incapacitate someone from sitting in Congress.

But... what changed with respect to Trump's body or mind between Friday morning and Saturday morning? He said that stuff ten years ago, and has been the same sexual-assault-loving creep during the entire Republican primary and presidential race. I guess I don't see (from a judge's perspective) what the grounds to challenge his competence this weekend are if they didn't do it last week, last month, or last fall. Surely a court would need the GOP to demonstrate what changed in 24 hours, aside from the fact that Trump became not incompetent but merely unelectable?

I gather, as you said, that this is uncharted territory so it's all going to be speculation anyway.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 12:39 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


A friend of mine remarked, about Hillary's campaign strategy, that he was reminded of Lao Tzu.

Lao tzu — 'Do you have the patience to wait Till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving Till the right action arises by itself?'
posted by xyzzy at 12:40 AM on October 8, 2016 [69 favorites]


I think -- given the failure of his fiduciary responsibility to preserve value of the "Trump" brand, his children have a better shot at getting him declared incompetent than the RNC.
posted by mikelieman at 12:44 AM on October 8, 2016 [11 favorites]


The NYT, which still won't print the word "sucks," putting "fuck" on the front page is officially my last even. I am out of evens. Gonna go early vote on Monday.

I mean not like I was still deciding, just that the End Times have arrived and I want to get my ballot in before Armageddon.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:51 AM on October 8, 2016 [29 favorites]


They cannot legally replace him now. Voting has already started.

Maybe not replace him, but what about switching President and VP names on the ticket? Because for a brief moment, I was thinking that the tape maybe wasn't released by team Hillary but by Republican NeverTrumpers, who were waiting for a good point in time to put Pence on top of the ticket and Trump for VP slot. That way, the names on the ticket are still the same, so technically, nobody who's already voted is disenfranchised.
posted by sour cream at 12:53 AM on October 8, 2016


Of course, to make for a credible Republican presidential candidate, Pence would have to rack up a few saucy scandals first, but from what I heard, that part is doable...
posted by sour cream at 12:53 AM on October 8, 2016


Most of Pence's saucy adventures were back when he was leading the A-Team.

they called him Hannibal in those days
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:57 AM on October 8, 2016 [8 favorites]


The NYT, which still won't print the word "sucks," putting "fuck" on the front page is officially my last even. I am out of evens.

Yeah we're seriously off the charts now.
posted by joedan at 12:59 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


Well, after an incalculable number of "Surely this..." moments, we have finally reached the point of "Don't call me Shirley!"
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:01 AM on October 8, 2016 [16 favorites]


Now Erin Burnett on CNN is telling the story for the first time of an anonymous woman who she knows who says that Trump was creepy to her in 2010 (when he was married at the time), that hearing about the Tic Tacs immediately made her sit up because Trump offered her Tic Tacs as he made unwanted advances in his office.

youtube - 1m31s
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:04 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


You guys, this may really be it. My family, who has donated thousands of dollars to Trump, is calling for him to resign. Rumors are flying that some of Trump's are asking him the same thing.
posted by corb at 1:06 AM on October 8, 2016 [79 favorites]


I just don't believe his ego will let him resign.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:14 AM on October 8, 2016 [8 favorites]


(But we can hope)
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:14 AM on October 8, 2016


I hope he doesn't. I want to see him and his backers crushed in a Hillary Clinton landslide.
posted by rifflesby at 1:17 AM on October 8, 2016 [21 favorites]


I don't want him to resign. I want him to stay there and take his electoral beating like a man.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:20 AM on October 8, 2016 [31 favorites]


Two die hard, long term GOP Trump supporters on my FB page are having second thoughts - one declares that he already 'hates him', and will 'never vote for him'.

The other still doesn't think there's much wrong with Trump, until I showed her some posts. Now, she's thinking about supporting Gary Johnson instead, after I gave her some info online.

This is why I didn't do the 'If you support Trump, I'm defriending you!' FB move that's going around - if/when they have second thoughts, that's the best time to engage them and offer other avenues to check out re: candidates. They're also both NeverClintoners, so that option is out.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:25 AM on October 8, 2016 [11 favorites]


My hope: his non-apology apology is enough to break the enchantment on the people who thought he was a strong alpha or whatever nonsense for not backing down anything else before, but not nearly enough to convince anyone else.
posted by ckape at 1:51 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is what happens when we go out to eat for my daughter's birthday.... and I caught up last night, too.

Since we are still talking about vice presidents and debates (ha!), I am really unhappy with the idea of Trump staying the course and resigning after taking the oath of office, rather than facing impeachment. I can see the Republican elite forcing that issue. This man can be bought or bullied, he has too much to hide.
That puts Pence in. I am not down with Pence. He's the logical-sounding face of the far-right, and I do not want him handling the Supreme Court nomination, or any social services legislation.
He didn't run for president, he should not be given the authority. This will be another level of awful.

Yeah, Hillary! Eat your vegetables and don't take up bungee jumping. You, too, Tim.
posted by TrishaU at 2:08 AM on October 8, 2016 [5 favorites]


My hope: his non-apology apology is enough to break the enchantment on the people who thought he was a strong alpha or whatever nonsense for not backing down anything else before, but not nearly enough to convince anyone else.

Trump has certainly lost face and they'll pick up on that, but I think what will shake them more is that the mainstream media and more siloed spaces are closing in now that 1) there's blood in the water and 2) people, including journalists, are righteously angry.

The next blow to them will be when Trump crashes and burns in the debate. He's unprepared, Clinton is hypercompetent at this sort of stuff, and ... it's going to be a pretty unfriendly house.

The next 36 hours are going to have at least two interviews with women sexually assaulted by him, probably - Erin Burnett's friend and also Jill Harth (as per this interview back in July).

(I spent a few minutes seeing if there were any bookies taking bets on whether the debate would take place, but no luck.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:09 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


The child rape case seems to be moving forward, so lets hope he dies penniless in prison.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 2:13 AM on October 8, 2016 [10 favorites]


What are the statute of limitations on assault?
Because even with the words out of his own mouth, for all the world to see, Trump could get away with this.
"Boys will be boys" has a long rope. "It happened so long ago!" "He was just running his mouth!" "He didn't break any laws; or if he did, why didn't someone complain about it?"

We see one thing. And yes, some people have enough principles to walk away, rather than ruin the causes they believe in. But not this person. He has no inner strength, no values.
He goes for the most convenient lies, like any con artist. Even with the words and actions on tape, he invites you to believe what he now says, not what you see and hear.
He is a sad example to us all of immorality. He knows right from wrong, and yet he thinks he can talk his way out of his selfish actions.
posted by TrishaU at 2:29 AM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


A lot of headlines are calling his statement a "defiant apology".

Defiant ... apology.
posted by kyrademon at 2:30 AM on October 8, 2016 [16 favorites]


Well, no 3 AM tweets. Good night everybody, and remember, Donald Trump still has 30 days to make things worse for himself.
posted by mmoncur at 2:30 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


I do not want Trump to step down any time in the next few weeks. Too much risk of a constitutional crisis. The Republicans shit their bed, now they need to wallow in it.
posted by Justinian at 2:41 AM on October 8, 2016 [15 favorites]


When I think of what Ted Cruz must be feeling right now I can barely keep myself from dancing a little jig of despair.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:59 AM on October 8, 2016 [25 favorites]


It's like McCoy in Star Trek V! If only Cruz had held out a little longer! They found a goddamn cure, Jim!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:01 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


Setting: Town Hall Debate A woodland glade. Trump sits by the side of a well, weeping decorously.

Moderator Frog: "I see you've dropped your microphone into the well. Was it this gold one, which records everything you say, or this silver one, which is broken and records nothing you say?"

Conway: *tackles Trump*
[fanfic]
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:07 AM on October 8, 2016 [18 favorites]


I must admit, I'm pretty happy they've all taken the time to tar themselves with him. Let's hope it sticks.
posted by Artw at 3:08 AM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


GOP Rep Barbara Comstock of Virginia withdraws her endorsement.

I've been volunteering with her opponent Luann Bennett, knocking on doors today should be fun.

Also, for people in the DC media market, the NRCC is running an attack ad against Bennett. I don't know enough to know if this is unusual, but her campaign feels that the ad is false and defamatory enough that they are threatening legal action[pdf] against the television stations that continue to air it. That ad make a point of calling Bennett, who is a real estate executive, a "developer" who avoids paying taxes. Pretty rich for republicans to use that line of attack. Maybe they'll accuse her next of being a groper.
posted by peeedro at 3:29 AM on October 8, 2016 [7 favorites]


Newsweek reporter Kurt Eichenwald is epileptic. A Trump supporter, knowing this, sent him an epileptogenic video designed to trigger seizures. Lots more details in the article, worth reading.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:29 AM on October 8, 2016 [30 favorites]


That article is just more evidence to me that Twitter is an irredeemable resource for hate and lies. Which is why it's the 'social media' resource Deplorable Donald uses.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:37 AM on October 8, 2016


The Deplorables must have been up all night long because #BillClintonIsARapist is the number two trend on Twitter this morning. #TrumpTapes is still number one.

They do realize Bill Clinton isn't the one running for President, right?
posted by guiseroom at 3:42 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've still not got over Billy Bush's sleazy hug demand after getting off the bus. Vile.
posted by knapah at 3:51 AM on October 8, 2016 [14 favorites]


Put a fork in him. He's done.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:54 AM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


BUT we all still have to VOTE! And VOLUNTEER as much as possible!

Donald's done, but we're not.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:55 AM on October 8, 2016 [22 favorites]


The optics of the Democrats challenging the replacement of Trump would not be good, though, because in order to challenge the replacement, the Democrats would have to argue, in a court of law, that Trump is competent to serve as President.

HAHAHA no.

Please don't try and make the Democrats look bad here. They can (and if it comes down to it, will) argue, truthfully, that he won more votes in the primary; that nearly every single elected and most retired GOP official supported/endorsed him; and that in most cases the deadline for changing names has passed. These are all valid arguments, and at this point it seems clear that most of the country is more supportive of "you broke it, you bought it".
posted by zombieflanders at 3:56 AM on October 8, 2016 [15 favorites]


We want Trump on the ballot to flip as many House seats as possible. Make this a wave election. Punish Republicans for being the party of racists, misogynists, homophobes, and some, I assume, are good people.
posted by Justinian at 4:02 AM on October 8, 2016 [48 favorites]


Talk as though a mod were watching you.

Sounds like good advice in general.

"Dance like nobody's watching. Talk as though a mod were watching you."
posted by krinklyfig at 4:05 AM on October 8, 2016 [12 favorites]


BUT we all still have to VOTE! And VOLUNTEER as much as possible!

Donald's done, but we're not.

Donald's done - but there are still downticket races. If this is as damaging as we all hope then 55 seats in the Senate, almost drawing level in the House, and State Legislatures and Governorships are on the table.
posted by Francis at 4:11 AM on October 8, 2016 [7 favorites]


The optics of the Democrats challenging the replacement of Trump would not be good, though, because in order to challenge the replacement, the Democrats would have to argue, in a court of law, that Trump is competent to serve as President.

HAHAHA no.
Please don't try and make the Democrats look bad here (...)
posted by zombieflanders at 20:56 on October 8

Yeah no, that's totally not what corb was doing there.
posted by moody cow at 4:12 AM on October 8, 2016 [15 favorites]


if you see a Democrat legislator

"Democratic legislator," please.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:14 AM on October 8, 2016 [10 favorites]


DU: This Meme Wins the Internet Tonight
posted by valetta at 4:17 AM on October 8, 2016 [19 favorites]


Also, it's kind of laughable that NeverTrumpers are trying to get him off the ballot, seeing as how their actions over the last decade are what made the ground fertile for Trump. They've been supporting voter suppression, Ryan's disastrous and morally bankrupt budget plan, removal of health care for those who need it most, heartless immigration laws, anti-LGBTQ bigotry, the denial of 1st Amendment rights to religious minorities, anti-woman policies on health and children, neo-Confederate hogwash, and much much more. Sometimes they do it enthusiastically, sometimes they wrap it in shitty Confederate/Jim Crow language about "state's rights," sometimes by excusing away bigotry as earnest and heart-felt and honestly come by, and sometimes by their very noticeable silence and inaction when it was needed most.

Hell, literally to this day they're still demonstrating how someone like Trump came to be the nominee. Remember all of 18 hours ago when he insisted that five PoC deserved punishment for a crime they were exonerated for by the physical evidence? I don't recall seeing a single goddamned NeverTrumper standing up for the Central Park Five. That's moral and ethical (and spiritual, if they're religious) malpractice on a grand scale, and excuse me if I'm not exactly exercised that they're trying to get out of the same situation that they've worked so hard to create all this time.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:20 AM on October 8, 2016 [39 favorites]


Francis: "Donald's done - but there are still downticket races. If this is as damaging as we all hope then 55 seats in the Senate, almost drawing level in the House, and State Legislatures and Governorships are on the table."

Also, a stronger Senate margin means better chance of getting a decent SCOTUS justice.

Also provides more of a buffer against the brutal 2018 Senate map.

Also:
🚨 #NEWTHREAD 🚨
🚨 #NEWTHREAD 🚨
🚨 #NEWTHREAD 🚨
posted by Rhaomi at 4:21 AM on October 8, 2016 [14 favorites]


Aside from just the sheer horror of what he says, even if this was some kind of "locker room talk" it is ridiculous. It's like Steve Carell's character in 40 Year-old Virgin comparing breasts to bags of sand. It wouldn't be out of place in the movie if Carell said the pussy grabbing line and it cut to Seth Rogen saying "what the FUCK is wrong with you, man?"
posted by snofoam at 4:22 AM on October 8, 2016 [6 favorites]


People keep saying "Every man I know talks like this." To which the only possible response is "No wonder you're a Trump supporter; you and everyone you know is a despicable piece of shit."

I feel like that just puts people on the defensive and doesn't work very well in communicating something meaningful.

I've been countering this 'locker room talk' by saying, "I don't talk like that, and my friends don't either. Raise your standards."

I told one person that I wasn't raised to talk about women with disrespect, that my step-dad was raised on a farm during the depression, and he didn't talk about women like that.

For the most part, silence in response. Which is fine. I'm not looking for an argument.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:26 AM on October 8, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm in line for bagels right now so I can fuel up and carpool to New Hampshire for some canvassing. I'm less nervous today, but I think it's going to be even more interesting.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:49 AM on October 8, 2016 [14 favorites]


Yeah I had a similar thought along the lines of *bags of sand*. Now, it might make DJT feel good to talk about handling women if they were bowling balls, but in my various times of being grabbed w/o my consent, it was never "by the pussy." I mean, because logistically, that just doesn't fucking work.

There's a reason it's usually an ass or boob grab.

But I guess "grabbing their ass" doesn't have that same feeling of bowling ball use.
posted by angrycat at 5:05 AM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm less nervous today, but I think it's going to be even more interesting.

This is one of the few times I'm a little sad to be a data volunteer, rather than a canvasser/phonebanker. I'll likely be at the office until late tonight (mostly entering voter reg's, since our deadline is the 11th), those of you out in the world, please collect good stories!
posted by kalimac at 6:01 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Glad to see a Trumplosion but wish it didn't have to drop right before Canadian Thanksgiving weekend. Ugh....
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:36 AM on October 8, 2016


Checking in on the Batan death march Democratic Senate hopes - Evan Bayh spent his last year in office searching for a lobbying job
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


@leahmcelrath (fantastic twitter thread)

"Trump's statement is an eerie replica of psychological manipulations made by abusers after episodes of abuse.

Let's break it down."
posted by Tarumba at 7:52 AM on October 8, 2016 [14 favorites]


Point of order: I would like to suggest that "zombie Reagan" be deprecated in favor of "lich king Reagan" because the image of a dark and decrepit leader on a frozen throne is much more appropriate.

Point of order two:
Walking home I tried to think what he reminded me of and there were various things. They were all medical except toe-jam and that was a slang word. I tried to break his face down and describe it but I could only get the eyes. Under the black hat, when I had first seen them, the eyes had been those of an unsuccessful rapist.
Best description of Donald Trump ever, y/y
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:56 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Fucking hell, NPR has RALPH REED on to talk about the situation. ::dives for the radio in time to avoid that sucking pit of hypocrisy::
posted by suelac at 8:11 AM on October 8, 2016


Oh man, just remembered that Sunday is the town hall. No way they keep it out.

I don't think I've seen it said yet, for this to be true, it needs to be worded as a question to both candidates and people have to vote for it here.

Fixed the link, my bad, it was late.
posted by VTX at 8:27 AM on October 8, 2016


....And the dude actually said something about how having children so there were future generations was good, and at presumably grabbing of crotches goes on during sex, so there you go.

Y'all, Trump isn't the problem. The people who support him are.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:21 AM on October 8 [48 favorites +] You hit your favorite limit for the day. [!]


Welp, looks like I've reached Peak Eponysteria.
posted by Surely This at 8:28 AM on October 8, 2016 [18 favorites]


The whole "Hillary has discredited and attacked the women her husband slept with" thing has come up before and people have asked for cites, so, from the WaPo: Enabler or family defender? How Hillary Clinton responded to husband’s accusers

It's a little shallow and doesn't provide links to any other sources. Here's the substance of it:
When Bill Clinton launched a presidential run in 1991, his wife and senior staff considered how to deal with what came to be known as “bimbo eruptions.”
[...]
Nevertheless, Hillary Clinton dismissed an accusation made by Gennifer Flowers, the singer who sold her story to a supermarket tabloid after having previously denied an affair. In an ABC News interview, she called Flowers “some failed cabaret singer who doesn’t even have much of a résumé to fall back on.” She told Esquire magazine in 1992 that if she had the chance to cross-examine Flowers, “I mean, I would crucify her.”
[...]
By July 1992, the campaign hired private detective Jack Palladino to investigate the accusers involved in two dozen allegations.

In 1994, former Arkansas state employee Paula Jones alleged in a lawsuit that Bill Clinton groped her in a hotel room three years earlier. Hillary Clinton wrote in her autobiography, “Living History,” that she erred in opposing an early settlement.

Eventually, Bill Clinton settled for $850,000. During discovery, Jones’s attorneys found out about White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

Her husband denied the relationship, and Hillary Clinton blamed the allegations on a “vast right-wing conspiracy.”
That's pretty much all the meat there is in the article, but it's not nothing. I've seen video of her comments on Monica Lewinsky and Gennifer Flowers.

Juanita Broaddrick gets a choice bit of bullshit:
Accuser Juanita Broaddrick, whose claim of a 1978 sexual assault has been denied by the Clintons, thinks Hillary Clinton was too passive. “I always felt if she’d been a stronger person . . . she could have done something about his behavior,” she said.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:28 AM on October 8, 2016


I keep refreshing 538 as if the middle of the country will turn blue before my eyes.
posted by MoonOrb

I'm guessing that a lot of polling orgs already planned to time new polls to gauge the post-debate reaction. We won't be able to separate the video's impact from his debate performance, but I hope that the net result will be a spectacular plunge for Trump and a corresponding upsurge for Clinton.
posted by Surely This at 8:34 AM on October 8, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary has been emailing me EVERY HOUR this morning.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:48 AM on October 8, 2016


Join us upstairs, folks.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:56 AM on October 8, 2016 [5 favorites]


Daniel Nichanian, of the University of Chicago, has prepared an online spreadsheet showing which currently serving GOP officials have been against Trump for a while, which ones were okay with him through "Mexican Judge", "Build the Wall," etc., but are now against him, and which ones are still okay with him, plus various shades in between (via James Fallows' great ongoing Trump Time Capsule).
posted by ogooglebar at 12:57 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry if this comment feels sort of plunked in, I've been reading through the thread but it keeps outpacing me.

I wish I could feel happy and excited about this Trump Brags About Sexual Assault video and the effect it's having on his image. But I'll admit that I'm mostly bewildered. He is so obviously, immediately the kind of man who would say and think these things. He's said shit that's very nearly as bad continuously on the campaign trail, when he was presumably on his best behavior. So I'm felt feeling...exhausted? That so much of my country has so thoroughly normalized casual misogyny that people had to listen to this man baldly state what he's constantly implying in order to put the pieces together.

I've met so many men like Trump. My dad's a lot like him, honestly. I can't understand how anyone is surprised.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 1:29 PM on October 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can't understand how anyone is surprised.

Not being surprised anymore is the cutting edge of acceptance and normalization. If Trump's kind of thing persists, maybe all we have to do is be jaded and it will fade away.
posted by rhizome at 2:36 PM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Haha, Boris got ahold of Donald's paint-by-number makeup kit. Geeez that crew is looking weathered today.
posted by wallabear at 3:17 PM on October 8, 2016


« Older "Bear spray doesn't always work."   |   The Mighty Barribal Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments