'Chabuduo': How China became the land of disastrous corner-cutting
October 5, 2016 6:58 PM Subscribe
The prevailing attitude [in China] is chabuduo, or ‘close enough’. It’s a phrase you’ll hear with grating regularity, one that speaks to a job 70 per cent done, a plan sketched out but never completed, a gauge unchecked or a socket put in the wrong size. Chabuduo is the corrosive opposite of the impulse towards craftmanship...it implies that to put any more time or effort into a piece of work would be the act of a fool. China is the land of the cut corner, of ‘good enough for government work’.
To chabuduo (差不多) I would also add suibian (随便), a term I've heard applied as often to work as to mainland driving styles.
posted by lumensimus at 7:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by lumensimus at 7:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Very interesting story, tracking how a spirit of improvisation became a festering pit in a country's soul thanks to a permeating feeling of hopelessness. (If that doesn't seem entirely accurate, well, chabuduo.) But now I want to read the article that would grow from this paragraph:
Today, the countryside is full of isolated inventors who build their own juddering planes or pond-going submarines from scratch, or craft full-scale catapults to resist demolition teams.
posted by ejs at 7:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Today, the countryside is full of isolated inventors who build their own juddering planes or pond-going submarines from scratch, or craft full-scale catapults to resist demolition teams.
posted by ejs at 7:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Two reactions, 75% of the way down the article: "Sloppy coding, broken apps and massive privacy failures are common" is what brought me grinding to a halt, because this is not a Chinese problem it is a Worldwide problem. (and the average American McMansion may not be the equal to the author's squalid apartment, but the gap between what it is and what it pretends to be is perhaps even greater)
Second, the author seems to direct the blame more at the individual worker than at the managers or the system, while I'd direct it more at the latter groups. (perhaps the last few paragraphs walk this back just a bit)
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [37 favorites]
Second, the author seems to direct the blame more at the individual worker than at the managers or the system, while I'd direct it more at the latter groups. (perhaps the last few paragraphs walk this back just a bit)
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [37 favorites]
Two reactions, 75% of the way down the article: "Sloppy coding, broken apps and massive privacy failures are common" is what brought me grinding to a halt, because this is not a Chinese problem it is a Worldwide problem.
Yes to this. 'Chabuduo' is basically technology risk assessment 101.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yes to this. 'Chabuduo' is basically technology risk assessment 101.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:54 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
"X is the land of Y"
posted by fatehunter at 8:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by fatehunter at 8:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just inbetween two cities in the US that I've worked in I've noticed a palpable difference in the degree to which it's expected and normalized to do your job thoroughly and well verse just doing it enough to not get in trouble... Relates to the concept of kakonomics that was posted here a while ago. I'm not sure how you would measure it or compare it but I'd imagine it would have a pretty significant impact extrapolated over the whole population of a country.
posted by bracems at 8:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by bracems at 8:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
In Israel they call this yihiyeh b'seder ("it'll be fine.")
posted by escabeche at 8:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 8:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
She'll be right, mate.
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]
It's not just the Chinese....
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
China is also the land of high-precision, high-quality electronics manufactured at astonishingly low cost, for what that's worth.
posted by flabdablet at 8:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:17 PM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]
What's the Chinese term for the casual dismissal of one of the largest populations on the face of the earth as an incompetent monoculture?
posted by phooky at 8:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [105 favorites]
posted by phooky at 8:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [105 favorites]
I'm sure this is true, but remember that we used to say the same thing about Japan, which now has the opposite reputation.
This is really more about a state of economic development and national income, more than about a culture or people.
posted by grobstein at 8:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]
This is really more about a state of economic development and national income, more than about a culture or people.
posted by grobstein at 8:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]
Second, the author seems to direct the blame more at the individual worker than at the managers or the system, while I'd direct it more at the latter groups. (perhaps the last few paragraphs walk this back just a bit)
I thought the author was mostly empathic towards the individual; he doesn't come out and yell/condemn Marxian alienation, but he effectively does so with: "Why is China caught in this trap? In most industries here, vital feedback loops are severed. To understand how to make things, you have to use them." So, ownership of labor, blah blah.
Rather, I think the problem with the article is twofold:
a) This is also about modernity in the global world; it's not that Chabuduo is unique to China but rather that Americans suffer from a tellingly different form of it: anti-intellectualism. Here, cognitive Chabuduo is ubiquitous. So what's interesting about this article is the way in which this lens and framing about something going on in China is nevertheless discursively embedded and generates its own distortions, in the negation of what phenomena are ontologically included as Chabuduo, etc. I think developing this inversion makes the analysis way more interesting and relevant.
b) I lost my train of thought but there was a second different point, maybe I'll remember it.
China is also the land of high-precision, high-quality electronics manufactured at astonishingly low cost, for what that's worth.
Yes, and that's discussed in the article.
posted by polymodus at 8:30 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
I thought the author was mostly empathic towards the individual; he doesn't come out and yell/condemn Marxian alienation, but he effectively does so with: "Why is China caught in this trap? In most industries here, vital feedback loops are severed. To understand how to make things, you have to use them." So, ownership of labor, blah blah.
Rather, I think the problem with the article is twofold:
a) This is also about modernity in the global world; it's not that Chabuduo is unique to China but rather that Americans suffer from a tellingly different form of it: anti-intellectualism. Here, cognitive Chabuduo is ubiquitous. So what's interesting about this article is the way in which this lens and framing about something going on in China is nevertheless discursively embedded and generates its own distortions, in the negation of what phenomena are ontologically included as Chabuduo, etc. I think developing this inversion makes the analysis way more interesting and relevant.
b) I lost my train of thought but there was a second different point, maybe I'll remember it.
China is also the land of high-precision, high-quality electronics manufactured at astonishingly low cost, for what that's worth.
Yes, and that's discussed in the article.
posted by polymodus at 8:30 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
I hold the theory that society is held together by duct tape. Every single place I look save for the true rare craftsman, it is a race to the bottom. To me it's a constant of capital or really - anything that demands quantity over quality. I mean, there are always exceptions. But I just look and see so many things hodgepodged together, and I imagine this is what the article is getting at. And it's more an acknowledgement of the fait accompli, the world as it is, vs the world I wish. "Well shit's gonna be fucked anyways, why not just fuxx0r it all anyways, and not stress myself to do better if nobody else is."
But yeah, a shit article to act as if it's only some "Other" that does this. But maybe it's a larger scale application in China. Maybe it's due to their historical contingencies, maybe it's the vast size, who knows. Maybe it truly is quantitivately different, I'm not there, I can't judge, but it does strike me as a bit of 1 finger at you and 4 back at me.
posted by symbioid at 8:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
But yeah, a shit article to act as if it's only some "Other" that does this. But maybe it's a larger scale application in China. Maybe it's due to their historical contingencies, maybe it's the vast size, who knows. Maybe it truly is quantitivately different, I'm not there, I can't judge, but it does strike me as a bit of 1 finger at you and 4 back at me.
posted by symbioid at 8:31 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
bracem, will you name the two cities without telling us which is which, and see if our guesses match?
posted by clew at 8:32 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 8:32 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, also you guys don't even wanna KNOW how chabuduo my room is.
posted by symbioid at 8:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by symbioid at 8:33 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
In conclusion, China is a land of contrasts.
"I hold the theory that society is held together by duct tape."
You give the world too much credit. It's actually scotch tape, and there's not enough of it. I have seen this so many times, everything is just barely hanging together and if duct tape wasn't out of scope it would all work a lot better.
Anyway I thought it was an interesting article, I was a little afraid of where it was going at first but I thought the discussion of the consequences that management decisions can have on a culture was really interesting.
posted by bleep at 8:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I hold the theory that society is held together by duct tape."
You give the world too much credit. It's actually scotch tape, and there's not enough of it. I have seen this so many times, everything is just barely hanging together and if duct tape wasn't out of scope it would all work a lot better.
Anyway I thought it was an interesting article, I was a little afraid of where it was going at first but I thought the discussion of the consequences that management decisions can have on a culture was really interesting.
posted by bleep at 8:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our unofficial JV cross country team motto way back in the day was "Reach for the stars... but grab the closest one." We were undefeated. JV, but undefeated. Chabuduo is the perfect word.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:36 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Miss Wormwood, I protest this "C" grade! That's saying I only did an "average" job! I got 75% of the answers correct, and in today's society, doing something 75% right is outstanding! If government and industry were 75% competent, we'd be ecstatic! I won't stand for this artificial standard of performance! I demand an "A" for this kind of work!"
posted by FJT at 9:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by FJT at 9:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
In authoritarian systems, those in the lower, lower, lowest tiers, are discouraged from speaking up about problems. The more defensive the system is then the greater margin for error, because, of course it is only one set of eyes that has value. The lower echelons face a grim depression, because of this and then just let things fall as they will. China is a very old nation, even remade post autocracy, the new is autocratic in a different way, and the people, remain in the same position. There is only so much room at the top. I enjoy a sort of so it goes, pragmatism, and sometimes you see some coverage from China that speaks to this. I remember one story about people storing their winter supply of cabbages, in the stairwell. There is something eternal about this. However, the toppled apartment building just made me laugh out loud. So seemingly perfect, pink and laying down like a punch line.
posted by Oyéah at 9:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of nothing so much as the Microsoft subcontractor I used to take money from.1 Management there held that 90% of all work was devoted to getting the last 10% of any given project done, and that reasoned from this that projects should be returned to the Microsoft division that had hired us immediately after that first 90% was finished, so that we didn't have to waste capacity on the time-consuming last 10%.
[1]: They would let me take this money in exchange for sitting in a specific crowded room for 10 hours a day and then writing down that I had sat in that crowded room for 8 hours and no more.a
[a]: What a country!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
[1]: They would let me take this money in exchange for sitting in a specific crowded room for 10 hours a day and then writing down that I had sat in that crowded room for 8 hours and no more.a
[a]: What a country!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
>I have never forgotten this apartment building, which was thankfully empty. It didn't collapse so much as faint dead away.
Now that you've shown it to me, I doubt that I'll forget it either, but I don''t know, you know -- a 13 floor building falls over and doesn't break into pieces, it doesn't even have any cracks that I can see; I agree that it was pretty stupid not to tie it to the ground a bit more securely, but that's not quite my idea of shoddy construction, it's more like it was incredibly overbuilt!
posted by jamjam at 9:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Now that you've shown it to me, I doubt that I'll forget it either, but I don''t know, you know -- a 13 floor building falls over and doesn't break into pieces, it doesn't even have any cracks that I can see; I agree that it was pretty stupid not to tie it to the ground a bit more securely, but that's not quite my idea of shoddy construction, it's more like it was incredibly overbuilt!
posted by jamjam at 9:44 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Before GM restructuring, it's was called: "Talk to my rep".
I believe the problem with said building was soil erosion. The bending tubes etc. is one give away.
It's worse then shoddy construction, it shows lack of proper planning at a basic level.
posted by clavdivs at 10:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I believe the problem with said building was soil erosion. The bending tubes etc. is one give away.
It's worse then shoddy construction, it shows lack of proper planning at a basic level.
posted by clavdivs at 10:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel that the article's thesis is somewhat undermined by its content. He talks about near enough is good enough, but then when he touches on why this is we get the following reasons: Gross inequality; unaccountability, and he never touches on the term but dances around it an awful lot - corruption.
I feel like the essay needed less of his impressions and descriptions of his shit apartment, and more sociology and facts. "That's not an essay!" you cry. "Try getting facts on anything in China!". Regarding the former objection; it's not an essay, but if you're gonna make a sociological argument - and one at that that's centuries old and positively dripping with racist implications - then you should take a sociological approach. The British were castigating the Chinese and Indians in a not dissimilar matter two hundred years ago; the discourse should have moved on.
Regarding the latter, yeah it's hard, but there are facts and history out there. His blithe dismissal of a huge part of the Chinese economy that's been wildly successful and his refusal to touch on the many others shows ignorance and unwillingness to engage. He mentioned a Baidu error, but not the success of WeChat - nor the great firewall and CCP dictats that necessitated the creation and the day to day running of both.
China is far, far from unique (in this regard. It's totally unique in many others!), and I'm very very wary to latch onto some nebulous cultural expression as a means of explaining something so complex away. Lots of Chinese people I know hate this shit as much as the white dude.
What does China have in common with countries where standards can be a big issue? Hmmmm. Sky-high levels of corruption. Life being cheap. Shakey or non-existent democracy. A history of subjugation and being on the wrong side of the colonial transaction. A centuries-long history of being a place the west outsources its misery, its uncomfortable products of the modern life, its e-waste, its slave labour, its garbage recycling; its commodity processing. A history, perhaps, of only being able to dramatically increase the living standards of its people by doing the things the west isn't willing to do - especially for the right price.
I'm far, far, far from a defender of China and the CCP - indeed, I'm highly critical, of both. I think the latter is fucking monstrous and remain skeptical they will be able to postpone a reckoning for their greed, hubris, corruption, cruelty.
However. If you're gonna write an article about society, you can't fucking take society out of it. This kind of Chinese exceptionalism is just as noxious the patriotic kind, and just as accurate, I feel.
posted by smoke at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
I feel like the essay needed less of his impressions and descriptions of his shit apartment, and more sociology and facts. "That's not an essay!" you cry. "Try getting facts on anything in China!". Regarding the former objection; it's not an essay, but if you're gonna make a sociological argument - and one at that that's centuries old and positively dripping with racist implications - then you should take a sociological approach. The British were castigating the Chinese and Indians in a not dissimilar matter two hundred years ago; the discourse should have moved on.
Regarding the latter, yeah it's hard, but there are facts and history out there. His blithe dismissal of a huge part of the Chinese economy that's been wildly successful and his refusal to touch on the many others shows ignorance and unwillingness to engage. He mentioned a Baidu error, but not the success of WeChat - nor the great firewall and CCP dictats that necessitated the creation and the day to day running of both.
China is far, far from unique (in this regard. It's totally unique in many others!), and I'm very very wary to latch onto some nebulous cultural expression as a means of explaining something so complex away. Lots of Chinese people I know hate this shit as much as the white dude.
What does China have in common with countries where standards can be a big issue? Hmmmm. Sky-high levels of corruption. Life being cheap. Shakey or non-existent democracy. A history of subjugation and being on the wrong side of the colonial transaction. A centuries-long history of being a place the west outsources its misery, its uncomfortable products of the modern life, its e-waste, its slave labour, its garbage recycling; its commodity processing. A history, perhaps, of only being able to dramatically increase the living standards of its people by doing the things the west isn't willing to do - especially for the right price.
I'm far, far, far from a defender of China and the CCP - indeed, I'm highly critical, of both. I think the latter is fucking monstrous and remain skeptical they will be able to postpone a reckoning for their greed, hubris, corruption, cruelty.
However. If you're gonna write an article about society, you can't fucking take society out of it. This kind of Chinese exceptionalism is just as noxious the patriotic kind, and just as accurate, I feel.
posted by smoke at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
The most important missing element in China is fredom of speech. If QA inspectors and government regulators can't say "this isn't good enough" without fear for their jobs and the safety of their families, chabuduo results.
posted by monotreme at 11:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by monotreme at 11:42 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have never forgotten this apartment building, which was thankfully empty. It didn't collapse so much as faint dead away.
I won't say I live in the identical model, but there is a batch of those just across the street, and mine is just a little different in the exterior decoration of the upper floors. Hope the foundation was a little more chabuduo than that one! But in fairness there must be 50 or 60 of these within my immediate view, and about 10 more under construction within earshot, and not one of them has tipped over.
China is an excellent place to be a mediocrity!
posted by Meatbomb at 11:45 PM on October 5, 2016
I won't say I live in the identical model, but there is a batch of those just across the street, and mine is just a little different in the exterior decoration of the upper floors. Hope the foundation was a little more chabuduo than that one! But in fairness there must be 50 or 60 of these within my immediate view, and about 10 more under construction within earshot, and not one of them has tipped over.
China is an excellent place to be a mediocrity!
posted by Meatbomb at 11:45 PM on October 5, 2016
What's the Chinese term for the casual dismissal of one of the largest populations on the face of the earth as an incompetent monoculture?
美国人心态 ?
okay okay tired humor aside, 成见
posted by fraula at 12:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
美国人心态 ?
okay okay tired humor aside, 成见
posted by fraula at 12:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
If QA inspectors and government regulators can't say "this isn't good enough" without fear for their jobs and the safety of their families, chabuduo results.
This isn't a uniquely Chinese problem. Despite theoretical protection for whistleblowers, blame culture and back-covering corporate culture cause similar issues in Western societies. Think of Challenger and other examples from the engineering world, as well as ongoing issues with banking culture both pre- and post-2008, or indeed the fate of individuals like Edward Snowden.
posted by plep at 1:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
This isn't a uniquely Chinese problem. Despite theoretical protection for whistleblowers, blame culture and back-covering corporate culture cause similar issues in Western societies. Think of Challenger and other examples from the engineering world, as well as ongoing issues with banking culture both pre- and post-2008, or indeed the fate of individuals like Edward Snowden.
posted by plep at 1:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, this all sounds like my overwhelming impression of the UK after living here over ten years. I was practically fired (bullied into leaving actually, because that doesn't open you up to legal action) for dobbing in and refusing to work in a hot food counter at one of the big four retailers, for their casual and constant violation of health and safety regulations (and basic fucking hygiene and food safety). It was abundantly clear that I was the problem for rocking the boat, not the people putting customers in legit danger by not doing their jobs, that was the problem, both as far as management and my coworkers (even those not on the same department and this not directly affected) were concerned.
This is the most extreme example in my own working history, but it gels well with my experiences in general of everywhere else I've worked in this country, and the sorts of stories I hear from my friends.
posted by Dysk at 1:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is the most extreme example in my own working history, but it gels well with my experiences in general of everywhere else I've worked in this country, and the sorts of stories I hear from my friends.
posted by Dysk at 1:17 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
@ Dysk. I think this is common to both the US and UK, and probably many other societies as well. It strikes me as simply othering just to point to China - lack of distance means these issues just don't occur to Western writers when they happen under their very noses.
The Risks Digest is full of this kind of stuff. Here's another example : Deepwater Horizon: It was years of cutting corners, not one careless mistake, that caused the explosion.
posted by plep at 1:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
The Risks Digest is full of this kind of stuff. Here's another example : Deepwater Horizon: It was years of cutting corners, not one careless mistake, that caused the explosion.
posted by plep at 1:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
Interestingly, my experience of workplaces in Denmark is completely different. I don't know if it's a factor of shorter hours and significantly better pay, but none of the half-dozen or so places I've worked there had the whole kakonomics thing going on.
posted by Dysk at 1:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Dysk, I'm certain that the workplace culture in Denmark is quite different - my international students tell me about it all the time, and my Danish students who go abroad are appalled at the low quality of housing and food they find in the UK and US. But the good work ethics here are eroding, in part because of direct government policies and in part because of popular lack of education. The government is taking away funding from the institutions that control consumer/citizen safety as well as prioritizing low cost over safety, and younger generations are less aware both of their rights and the dangers that face them. I guess it is the logical consequence of growing up in a safe and trusting society: you are vulnerable to deception.
posted by mumimor at 2:33 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 2:33 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
In Portugal the key is being able to wriggle out of a mess at the last minute through something brilliantly creative or just lucky: desenracanço
posted by chavenet at 2:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
What's the Chinese term for the casual dismissal of one of the largest populations on the face of the earth as an incompetent monoculture?
This. Nothing in the article sounded all that egregious to me, living in a London flat (renovated one year ago) where the kitchen work surface was never sealed properly, the dishwasher cannot be opened fully because the door butts into the side of the refrigerator, the oven fan apparently doesn't vent to the outside, the showerhead is apt to spray horizontally from its rim and a full 20% of the apartment's light sockets have already failed. (My friends, whose refrigerator was permanently and irreparably dented in the act of installation, assure me we got off lucky.) If you want to see half-assedness as a way of life, my friend, come feast your eyes on the work of the mid-range London builder.
That said, I can attest from personal experience that there is a special kind of potentially lethal shoddiness at work in China. Chinese construction culture seems to be particularly cavalier about unshielded electrical wiring in close proximity to water. Ouch.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
This. Nothing in the article sounded all that egregious to me, living in a London flat (renovated one year ago) where the kitchen work surface was never sealed properly, the dishwasher cannot be opened fully because the door butts into the side of the refrigerator, the oven fan apparently doesn't vent to the outside, the showerhead is apt to spray horizontally from its rim and a full 20% of the apartment's light sockets have already failed. (My friends, whose refrigerator was permanently and irreparably dented in the act of installation, assure me we got off lucky.) If you want to see half-assedness as a way of life, my friend, come feast your eyes on the work of the mid-range London builder.
That said, I can attest from personal experience that there is a special kind of potentially lethal shoddiness at work in China. Chinese construction culture seems to be particularly cavalier about unshielded electrical wiring in close proximity to water. Ouch.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:18 AM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Sure, fukkit. It'll be grand."...is something I oft hear said where I work.
posted by Homemade Interossiter at 3:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Homemade Interossiter at 3:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
The most important missing element in China is fredom of speech. If QA inspectors and government regulators can't say "this isn't good enough" without fear for their jobs and the safety of their families, chabuduo results.
I am reminded of US meat-processing inspectors who risk disciplinary action if they order a production line stopped because they believe it is contaminating the meat. Their current role is apparently limited to reviewing the companies' risk-management plans, not the safety of the process.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
I am reminded of US meat-processing inspectors who risk disciplinary action if they order a production line stopped because they believe it is contaminating the meat. Their current role is apparently limited to reviewing the companies' risk-management plans, not the safety of the process.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:38 AM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
To all those who are, like, yeah it's the same here in the UK, the US or whereever, I encourage you to actually go to China and live there for a couple of weeks or months. And by "China", I mean outside the big hotels in Beijing, Shanghai etc.
I thought the author did a pretty good job of explaining some of the mechanisms behind the fundamental differences. Such as the lack of professional organizations, the alienation of much of low-paid labor, etc.
Sure, there are food scandals everywhere once in a while. But there is a system (including, e.g. a free press, a working judiciary, enforcement of safety standards) in place to keep this in check. The system may not be perfect, but in most places it's more than rudimentary. In China, blatant disregard of regulations that do not affect you directly or for which you cannot be held responsible is rampant, and there is little to no feeling of responsibilty as an individual toward society as a whole. (I'll spare you the tangent for "shame" vs. "guilt" culture.)
And because of that, there is a pervasive feeling of distrust. You don't trust dairy products, because there is no way to know what the quality is, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. Basically, trust is limited to family members and, maybe, close friends. But there is not trust in institutions, companies (except some well-known, mostly Western, brands), etc. that runs much deeper than anything that you will encounter in the West.
Yes, trust is eroding the West as well, but we are talking orders of magnitude of difference here. Go to China and see for yourself.
posted by sour cream at 5:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
I thought the author did a pretty good job of explaining some of the mechanisms behind the fundamental differences. Such as the lack of professional organizations, the alienation of much of low-paid labor, etc.
Sure, there are food scandals everywhere once in a while. But there is a system (including, e.g. a free press, a working judiciary, enforcement of safety standards) in place to keep this in check. The system may not be perfect, but in most places it's more than rudimentary. In China, blatant disregard of regulations that do not affect you directly or for which you cannot be held responsible is rampant, and there is little to no feeling of responsibilty as an individual toward society as a whole. (I'll spare you the tangent for "shame" vs. "guilt" culture.)
And because of that, there is a pervasive feeling of distrust. You don't trust dairy products, because there is no way to know what the quality is, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. Basically, trust is limited to family members and, maybe, close friends. But there is not trust in institutions, companies (except some well-known, mostly Western, brands), etc. that runs much deeper than anything that you will encounter in the West.
Yes, trust is eroding the West as well, but we are talking orders of magnitude of difference here. Go to China and see for yourself.
posted by sour cream at 5:11 AM on October 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
So, I do think that there is some othering and racism here; I also think China is in a moment of extreme cultural ... disruption? which is resulting in some apt comparisons in the cities to Dickensian London and the Chicago stockyards of Upton Sinclair's time.
However difficult it may be to make useful cultural comparisons, something about the opportunity to get rich quick and really be able to flaunt that wealth like a robber baron is combining with a strong patriarchal/authoritarian tradition to result in some truly egregious safety/quality/exploitation problems.
Is it different from other countries/cultures? Sure... and it's noticeable as hell to the outsider. But of course we are so immersed in our own cultures' chabuduo, and so invested in believing that they are not so bad (like the majority of Americans who believe all schools are failing, except for the ones we send our own kids to) -- because it just cannot be that bad, here.
Plus the shift from rural to urban life: getting people to stop hawking and spitting on sidewalks and subways, or even from peeing suibian, is an issue on a mass scale, but it will be resolved over time just like it was in other transitions from rural to urban culture. It's just that China is so... BIG.
Everything is everything? Is that what I am saying?
posted by allthinky at 5:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
However difficult it may be to make useful cultural comparisons, something about the opportunity to get rich quick and really be able to flaunt that wealth like a robber baron is combining with a strong patriarchal/authoritarian tradition to result in some truly egregious safety/quality/exploitation problems.
Is it different from other countries/cultures? Sure... and it's noticeable as hell to the outsider. But of course we are so immersed in our own cultures' chabuduo, and so invested in believing that they are not so bad (like the majority of Americans who believe all schools are failing, except for the ones we send our own kids to) -- because it just cannot be that bad, here.
Plus the shift from rural to urban life: getting people to stop hawking and spitting on sidewalks and subways, or even from peeing suibian, is an issue on a mass scale, but it will be resolved over time just like it was in other transitions from rural to urban culture. It's just that China is so... BIG.
Everything is everything? Is that what I am saying?
posted by allthinky at 5:27 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is it a chabuduo joke that both links lead to the same article?
posted by Bee'sWing at 6:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 6:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not only this. In Japan, they have Kaizen, the continuous improvement of products.
In Chine they do it the other way around. I call it "Geizen", which means "stinginess". They offer to produce a product at a price nobody can match. Their profit rate is zero and then they get the contract and start production. But since producing with a zero percent profit rate is not exciting, where do the profits come from? Well, the product casing is hold by 8 screws. It would hold with 7 screws, would't it. 6 screws? The walls are 3 mm aluminum. Why not make them 2.9 mm? Why not 2.8? Hey if 2.8 was fine in the past, why not just use 2.5 mm? And so it goes on and on.
Sooner or later every Chinese product becomes trash after successful application of the "Geizen" principle.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 6:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
In Chine they do it the other way around. I call it "Geizen", which means "stinginess". They offer to produce a product at a price nobody can match. Their profit rate is zero and then they get the contract and start production. But since producing with a zero percent profit rate is not exciting, where do the profits come from? Well, the product casing is hold by 8 screws. It would hold with 7 screws, would't it. 6 screws? The walls are 3 mm aluminum. Why not make them 2.9 mm? Why not 2.8? Hey if 2.8 was fine in the past, why not just use 2.5 mm? And so it goes on and on.
Sooner or later every Chinese product becomes trash after successful application of the "Geizen" principle.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 6:25 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
But there is not trust in institutions, companies (except some well-known, mostly Western, brands), etc. that runs much deeper than anything that you will encounter in the West.
Fascinatingly, Chinese tourists now routinely visit Japan (especially Osaka) to purchase lots of household appliances, because they are viewed as more reliable and trustworthy, as products made for the Japanese market, than products made for the Chinese market. Despite the fact that many of them are actually made in China.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Fascinatingly, Chinese tourists now routinely visit Japan (especially Osaka) to purchase lots of household appliances, because they are viewed as more reliable and trustworthy, as products made for the Japanese market, than products made for the Chinese market. Despite the fact that many of them are actually made in China.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:29 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
In a Communist country, all work is literally government work.
posted by acb at 6:31 AM on October 6, 2016
posted by acb at 6:31 AM on October 6, 2016
Yeah, this all sounds like my overwhelming impression of the UK after living here over ten years. I was practically fired (bullied into leaving actually, because that doesn't open you up to legal action) for dobbing in and refusing to work in a hot food counter at one of the big four retailers, for their casual and constant violation of health and safety regulations (and basic fucking hygiene and food safety). It was abundantly clear that I was the problem for rocking the boat, not the people putting customers in legit danger by not doing their jobs, that was the problem, both as far as management and my coworkers (even those not on the same department and this not directly affected) were concerned.
Cheap and Cheerful!
Seriously, though there are huge cultural differences in where and when corners can be cut.
No Canadian would ever tolerate drafty home construction but have almost no interest in proper tailoring.
Americans expect incredible customer service almost for free but have about zero interest of quality of life - theirs or others.
Northern Europeans believe in craftsmanship and such but also nothing getting done in August or December.
You notice the corner cutting other cultures do because it is different from the corners you assume will be cut.
posted by srboisvert at 6:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [34 favorites]
Cheap and Cheerful!
Seriously, though there are huge cultural differences in where and when corners can be cut.
No Canadian would ever tolerate drafty home construction but have almost no interest in proper tailoring.
Americans expect incredible customer service almost for free but have about zero interest of quality of life - theirs or others.
Northern Europeans believe in craftsmanship and such but also nothing getting done in August or December.
You notice the corner cutting other cultures do because it is different from the corners you assume will be cut.
posted by srboisvert at 6:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [34 favorites]
escabeche: In Israel they call this yihiyeh b'seder ("it'll be fine.")
flabdablet: She'll be right, mate.
And in Iceland, “Þetta reddast”
posted by acb at 6:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
flabdablet: She'll be right, mate.
And in Iceland, “Þetta reddast”
posted by acb at 6:37 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
China isn't really communist at this point except in name, and has not been since at least the late nineties. When I worked there in the late nineties, my students were already telling me how the few equalization measures that had existed were being done away with. It was already hard for rural students to get into good universities - my rural students were always the smartest in the class, even though they'd had less practice with English. Healthcare was becoming more unequal and it's only gotten worse.
This whole "oh China's problems are the result of communism" thing really frosts me. In 1985, sure, China's problems were the result of communism. Right now, China's problems are the result of a grotesque authoritarian capitalism which ought to scare us all.
When I returned to China to work in the 2000s, I saw the consequences of the changes in healthcare, housing and education - the floor had been removed. If you were getting rich and/or very fast on your feet, it wasn't too bad, but it was pretty dire for a lot of people.
Lots of stuff was shoddy, yeah, but what I saw again and again was people doing their best with shoddiness, people innovating in the face of huge obstacles. I was constantly struck by how people could create comfort and function in the middle of chaos and disorder.
The difference between communist construction and new construction, as far as I could tell, was this: communist construction was grim and spare, but it held together; new construction was shiny and it broke. (I lived in old and new buildings, and in the old building we had a lot of old furniture and a few old appliances.)
There were a lot of old or traditional things like old-style thermoses and hotplates that were so superior to everything of that type in the US, it was amazing. And a lot of useful things - plastic bowls and carriers in sizes and shapes that you don't get over here that made life much easier, for instance.
posted by Frowner at 6:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [37 favorites]
This whole "oh China's problems are the result of communism" thing really frosts me. In 1985, sure, China's problems were the result of communism. Right now, China's problems are the result of a grotesque authoritarian capitalism which ought to scare us all.
When I returned to China to work in the 2000s, I saw the consequences of the changes in healthcare, housing and education - the floor had been removed. If you were getting rich and/or very fast on your feet, it wasn't too bad, but it was pretty dire for a lot of people.
Lots of stuff was shoddy, yeah, but what I saw again and again was people doing their best with shoddiness, people innovating in the face of huge obstacles. I was constantly struck by how people could create comfort and function in the middle of chaos and disorder.
The difference between communist construction and new construction, as far as I could tell, was this: communist construction was grim and spare, but it held together; new construction was shiny and it broke. (I lived in old and new buildings, and in the old building we had a lot of old furniture and a few old appliances.)
There were a lot of old or traditional things like old-style thermoses and hotplates that were so superior to everything of that type in the US, it was amazing. And a lot of useful things - plastic bowls and carriers in sizes and shapes that you don't get over here that made life much easier, for instance.
posted by Frowner at 6:46 AM on October 6, 2016 [37 favorites]
Yes, I think "grotesque authoritarian capitalism" nails it.
Not so different from what we have in the U.S., perhaps, but less obvious to us as we are steeped in it.
posted by allthinky at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not so different from what we have in the U.S., perhaps, but less obvious to us as we are steeped in it.
posted by allthinky at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Back in the day this sort of ex-patriate writing a racist think-piece about the colonies was put together with real craftsmanship, think Orwell's "Killing an Elephant." But now in the days of Brexit it's all shoddy worksmanship, no attention at all to the words, if it's good enough for Medium....
Also, the British have such odd neurotic feelings about electricity in the bathroom. It's clearly too dangerous to have outlets in the bathroom, except for shaving, but by all means put a high draw electric water heater *in* the shower. So, I can imagine how this poor fellow felt to find electrical wires (((near the shower))) .
posted by ennui.bz at 7:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
Also, the British have such odd neurotic feelings about electricity in the bathroom. It's clearly too dangerous to have outlets in the bathroom, except for shaving, but by all means put a high draw electric water heater *in* the shower. So, I can imagine how this poor fellow felt to find electrical wires (((near the shower))) .
posted by ennui.bz at 7:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
In some countries, it's government regulation that promotes incomplete projects: What’s with all the unfinished buildings in Peru and Bolivia? (tl;dr: In Peru there is/was no property tax to pay until the building is complete, and apparently in Bolivia, there's a culture of Bigger is Better at the cost of completeness inside and out).
And as a government worker, I have an issue with "good enough for government work," even though my colleagues and I say it, mostly jokingly, from time to time. What is the goal of your effort? Remembering that Perfect is the enemy of Good (and Done), if you don't need 100% accuracy, why double your time on a project to get it that last 1, 2 or 5 percent? And as a contractor with a limited budget, would you strive to get something 100% perfect if it would cut into slim profits? But there's a significant difference between being 95% or 70% on target.
My wife, a math teacher, also likes to point out that perfection is critical for mathematicians, but engineers deal in a reality of "close enough" due to real-world variables beyond their control, but that also leads to engineering disasters and not mathematical disasters.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
And as a government worker, I have an issue with "good enough for government work," even though my colleagues and I say it, mostly jokingly, from time to time. What is the goal of your effort? Remembering that Perfect is the enemy of Good (and Done), if you don't need 100% accuracy, why double your time on a project to get it that last 1, 2 or 5 percent? And as a contractor with a limited budget, would you strive to get something 100% perfect if it would cut into slim profits? But there's a significant difference between being 95% or 70% on target.
My wife, a math teacher, also likes to point out that perfection is critical for mathematicians, but engineers deal in a reality of "close enough" due to real-world variables beyond their control, but that also leads to engineering disasters and not mathematical disasters.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Though cultural transmission casts a long shadow; given that the differences in expectations of official probity between the Habsburg, Russian and Ottoman empires still manifest themselves in different rates of petty corruption, and the culture of honour of the 17th-century Scotch borders still manifests itself in the US South's homicide rate being twice that of the North, it's not unreasonable to expect Maoist dogma and the survival values that emerged under it to manifest themselves in China today.
posted by acb at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by acb at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is certainly creeping (or has been in place for years, and I just now noticed) into the US construction business. Our 10 year old house, built by a major homebuilder, has so many infuriating things wrong with it. About half of the interior doorframes aren't square, meaning I had to shim the hinges to get them to close and latch properly, a couple countertops were visibly not level, and when you look at the flooring from the unfinished basement, there are entire lengths of subfloor where they missed the joists with every nail. It's all stuff you'd never notice on a walkthrough, but once you start any home inprovement project, rooms that are 4 inches wider at one end or pipes that hang below the studs become big issues.
On a sort-of related handyman note, it's pretty common knowledge that noname Chinese-made electrical tools are pretty much the worst, and only good for disposable use.
posted by Mr. Big Business at 7:34 AM on October 6, 2016
On a sort-of related handyman note, it's pretty common knowledge that noname Chinese-made electrical tools are pretty much the worst, and only good for disposable use.
posted by Mr. Big Business at 7:34 AM on October 6, 2016
values that emerged under it to manifest themselves in China today
Or, alternatively, it's not unreasonable to expect values that preceded Maoism to occur and persist in it. That was what struck me back when I was reading Chinese history for my major - that in the west, we want to understand China as if Chinese history began in 1949, but you get a much more plausible reading of Chinese history since, say, 1800 if you assume that China had a pretty crap century or so of colonial and civil war, deteriorating capability and probity in the imperial administration and then WWII, and that the primary continuity is with the pre-Revolutionary period. As far as one can tell from the present and the outside, China from about 1905 to the Revolution faced a lot of terrible things, and in particular bad situations on the coasts due to foreign aggression and meddling, and this had a really bad effect on governance in general.
When I lived in China I was struck by the immense weight of the past - and not even the long past, just the past century or so. It's difficult enough to get a small, rich, peaceful, homogeneous country to change course, never mind a large, poor, war-plagued, divided one.
posted by Frowner at 7:44 AM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
Or, alternatively, it's not unreasonable to expect values that preceded Maoism to occur and persist in it. That was what struck me back when I was reading Chinese history for my major - that in the west, we want to understand China as if Chinese history began in 1949, but you get a much more plausible reading of Chinese history since, say, 1800 if you assume that China had a pretty crap century or so of colonial and civil war, deteriorating capability and probity in the imperial administration and then WWII, and that the primary continuity is with the pre-Revolutionary period. As far as one can tell from the present and the outside, China from about 1905 to the Revolution faced a lot of terrible things, and in particular bad situations on the coasts due to foreign aggression and meddling, and this had a really bad effect on governance in general.
When I lived in China I was struck by the immense weight of the past - and not even the long past, just the past century or so. It's difficult enough to get a small, rich, peaceful, homogeneous country to change course, never mind a large, poor, war-plagued, divided one.
posted by Frowner at 7:44 AM on October 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
So it goes:
Maximum effort
Effort
Minimum effort
Good enough for government work
Chabuduo
Did I miss any?
posted by Splunge at 10:14 AM on October 6, 2016
Maximum effort
Effort
Minimum effort
Good enough for government work
Chabuduo
Did I miss any?
posted by Splunge at 10:14 AM on October 6, 2016
I thought the author did a pretty good job of explaining some of the mechanisms behind the fundamental differences. Such as the lack of professional organizations, the alienation of much of low-paid labor, etc.
Those same factors are at play in the UK though. There are no meaningful professional organisations for most building trades, no system of qualifications or professional accountability, nothing.
posted by Dysk at 10:17 AM on October 6, 2016
Those same factors are at play in the UK though. There are no meaningful professional organisations for most building trades, no system of qualifications or professional accountability, nothing.
posted by Dysk at 10:17 AM on October 6, 2016
One thing that non-techie people never understand, I think because it is utterly and completely terrifying, is that all the software we depend on to stay alive (literally, if the just in time supply chain breaks down most places are around three days from hunger) is held together by spit and hope. Duct tape would be a massive step up for your average critical bit of computer infrastructure.
Until quite recently the entire credit card network ran on antique code from the 1970's, no one dared to change it because breathing on it wrong would make it fall apart.
Yes, there is robust code out there. But it is scarce and mostly not running the critical stuff.
Every major computer opeartion is a constant, never ending, panic filled battle against sudden catastrophic failure. I guarantee you that right this second some sysadmin is having a nervous meltdown at Facebook, at Google, at the company that supplies your bank its software, at Microsoft, at Apple.
Modern software is a house of cards built in the dark out of almost frictionless cards of irregular size. Mostly, I think it's due to the fact that we haven't really found a way to do it well. Programmers try to hold the entire system in their heads, and the system is too complex to fit into a human brain. People have tried to find ways to avoid this, but nothing has really worked well. There's also ego to contend with, despite studies showing that flowcharting and pseudocoding really, truly, not only make for better programs but also faster programs, most programmers hate the very concept, they view flowcharts and pseudocode as tools for the weak minded and believe that the only **REAL** way to code is to sit down and start coding. None of that wussy flowcharting crap for me!
It's a miracle we haven't had a catastrophic failure yet.
It's the same kind we see all over in the USA. And it's quite rational. If you're doing shit work for shit wages for a company that has absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to you, doing more than the absolute bare minimum it takes to not get fired is foolhardy.
Why bust your ass when it means nothing? You won't get a raise. You won't get loyalty. All that will happen is the boss now knows you are capable of more so will expect that all the time and you've now raised the bar for "the absolute minimum it takes to not get fired".
That's the chabuduo built into late stage capitalism. The chabuduo that is growing everywhere the wealth gap grows, wherever hard work is a sucker's game because it gains you nothing but sweat.
It's corrosive and horrible for society, but as long as the rich are draining away everything and leaving everyone else to fight over a few scraps it's inevitable.
And in China they've got not merely a large and rapidly growing wealth gap, they've got a country still straining with every economic fiber it possesses to rise up and match the West, to drag the poorest out of rural poverty and into something resembling a modern lifestyle. It may be shoddy but China is spending close to 1/3 of its GDP on new construction. They're working hard, GDP is growing at a staggering rate. It may come from cheap materials and sloppy work, but the result is that China is clawing its way out of extreme poverty and into merely normal poverty.
Can that be done if you build one really solid apartment complex instead of five kind of OK apartment complexes? I dunno, but I think the powers in the PRC have decided the answer is no.
Plus, of course, the more authoritarian a place is the less anyone wants to call attention to a problem. You've almost certainly had experience like that wherever you live and work. The more authoritarian the boss is, the less anyone is going to want to admit a problem exists. Authoritarian bosses tend to equate the person who brought attention to the problem with the problem.
China is an authoritarian nation. All bosses simply want problems to vanish, and that often means getting rid of the person who brought attention to the problem.
Couple that with class resentment and a wealth gap that seems completely uncrossable and chabuduo makes a lot of sense on an individual level. For a society it's a slow motion disaster. For the individuals involved each instance of chabuduo makes perfect rational logical sense.
posted by sotonohito at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [27 favorites]
Until quite recently the entire credit card network ran on antique code from the 1970's, no one dared to change it because breathing on it wrong would make it fall apart.
Yes, there is robust code out there. But it is scarce and mostly not running the critical stuff.
Every major computer opeartion is a constant, never ending, panic filled battle against sudden catastrophic failure. I guarantee you that right this second some sysadmin is having a nervous meltdown at Facebook, at Google, at the company that supplies your bank its software, at Microsoft, at Apple.
Modern software is a house of cards built in the dark out of almost frictionless cards of irregular size. Mostly, I think it's due to the fact that we haven't really found a way to do it well. Programmers try to hold the entire system in their heads, and the system is too complex to fit into a human brain. People have tried to find ways to avoid this, but nothing has really worked well. There's also ego to contend with, despite studies showing that flowcharting and pseudocoding really, truly, not only make for better programs but also faster programs, most programmers hate the very concept, they view flowcharts and pseudocode as tools for the weak minded and believe that the only **REAL** way to code is to sit down and start coding. None of that wussy flowcharting crap for me!
It's a miracle we haven't had a catastrophic failure yet.
The men and women who build China’s houses will never live in them.I think the author probably didn't emphasize this enough. China has a massive wealth gap, and that's going to cause problem. There's another kind of chabuduo which is "close enough for those rich fuckers".
The average price of a one-bedroom apartment in a Chinese second-tier city – a provincial town of a few million people, straining at its own geographical and environmental limits – is around $100,000; the average yearly salary for a migrant construction worker is around $3,500. Their future is shabby pre-fabricated workers’ dorms and old country shacks, not air conditioning and modern bathrooms. If what you’re making represents a world utterly out of reach to you, why bother to do it well?
It's the same kind we see all over in the USA. And it's quite rational. If you're doing shit work for shit wages for a company that has absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to you, doing more than the absolute bare minimum it takes to not get fired is foolhardy.
Why bust your ass when it means nothing? You won't get a raise. You won't get loyalty. All that will happen is the boss now knows you are capable of more so will expect that all the time and you've now raised the bar for "the absolute minimum it takes to not get fired".
That's the chabuduo built into late stage capitalism. The chabuduo that is growing everywhere the wealth gap grows, wherever hard work is a sucker's game because it gains you nothing but sweat.
It's corrosive and horrible for society, but as long as the rich are draining away everything and leaving everyone else to fight over a few scraps it's inevitable.
And in China they've got not merely a large and rapidly growing wealth gap, they've got a country still straining with every economic fiber it possesses to rise up and match the West, to drag the poorest out of rural poverty and into something resembling a modern lifestyle. It may be shoddy but China is spending close to 1/3 of its GDP on new construction. They're working hard, GDP is growing at a staggering rate. It may come from cheap materials and sloppy work, but the result is that China is clawing its way out of extreme poverty and into merely normal poverty.
Can that be done if you build one really solid apartment complex instead of five kind of OK apartment complexes? I dunno, but I think the powers in the PRC have decided the answer is no.
Plus, of course, the more authoritarian a place is the less anyone wants to call attention to a problem. You've almost certainly had experience like that wherever you live and work. The more authoritarian the boss is, the less anyone is going to want to admit a problem exists. Authoritarian bosses tend to equate the person who brought attention to the problem with the problem.
China is an authoritarian nation. All bosses simply want problems to vanish, and that often means getting rid of the person who brought attention to the problem.
Couple that with class resentment and a wealth gap that seems completely uncrossable and chabuduo makes a lot of sense on an individual level. For a society it's a slow motion disaster. For the individuals involved each instance of chabuduo makes perfect rational logical sense.
posted by sotonohito at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [27 favorites]
chabuduo?
Hard to overstate the potential importance of this story...
Xi Jinping could stay in power beyond the normal 2 terms - "The system for succession, developed after a long period of political turmoil, was devised to help ensure a predictable, stable transition of power in the one-party state. Any effort by Mr. Xi to alter that compact might increase his considerable authority, but it could also inject instability into the delicately balanced system."*
posted by kliuless at 10:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hard to overstate the potential importance of this story...
Xi Jinping could stay in power beyond the normal 2 terms - "The system for succession, developed after a long period of political turmoil, was devised to help ensure a predictable, stable transition of power in the one-party state. Any effort by Mr. Xi to alter that compact might increase his considerable authority, but it could also inject instability into the delicately balanced system."*
posted by kliuless at 10:40 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those same factors are at play in the UK though. There are no meaningful professional organisations for most building trades, no system of qualifications or professional accountability, nothing.
No?
A two second google search gives you a list of three professional organizations for plumbers in the UK alone.
Two more clicks will get you to info on certifications and training programs.
I'm sure, other trades have similar organizations.
posted by sour cream at 10:58 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
No?
A two second google search gives you a list of three professional organizations for plumbers in the UK alone.
Two more clicks will get you to info on certifications and training programs.
I'm sure, other trades have similar organizations.
posted by sour cream at 10:58 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Having lived in China some years back and seen this principle in action in so many different places, I will casually dismiss the backhanded snark criticizing the article's depiction of China. Things may be different now, but, during my time there, IDGAF might as well have been the middle name of every- and anyone involved in customer service, to begin with. This is not to say that other countries don't have their own version—plenty of blame to go around—but the Chinese have a particular predilection for not giving a shit about consequences down the line if it puts a couple more bills in their pockets now. The knowledgeable in my group would wince and blanch at the practices in Chinese construction, for example. (see also: melamine in dog food, counterfeit pills, &c., &c.).
And the notion that, somehow, ascribing a characteristic to the whole of a population is somehow intellectually untenable can only be held by someone who's never lived in Buenos Aires, where every porteño practices his or her version of "viveza criolla."
posted by the sobsister at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
And the notion that, somehow, ascribing a characteristic to the whole of a population is somehow intellectually untenable can only be held by someone who's never lived in Buenos Aires, where every porteño practices his or her version of "viveza criolla."
posted by the sobsister at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
In China they do it the other way around. I call it "Geizen", which means "stinginess". They offer to produce a product at a price nobody can match. Their profit rate is zero and then they get the contract and start production. But since producing with a zero percent profit rate is not exciting, where do the profits come from? Well, the product casing is hold by 8 screws. It would hold with 7 screws, would't it. 6 screws? The walls are 3 mm aluminum. Why not make them 2.9 mm? Why not 2.8? Hey if 2.8 was fine in the past, why not just use 2.5 mm? And so it goes on and on.
Sooner or later every Chinese product becomes trash after successful application of the "Geizen" principle.
There's a word in English for this! It's Muntzing, after American businessman Earl "Madman" Muntz. His approach to designing televisions was to take a fully working TV, and then remove parts one by one until it stopped working. When it stopped working, he'd put the last part he had taken out back in, make sure the TV still worked, and then he'd go back to removing other parts until he removed another one that caused it to stop working, put that one back in, and so forth ad absurdum, or rather until he had a cheap TV that sorrrta worked, so long as conditions were ideal.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:15 PM on October 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
Sooner or later every Chinese product becomes trash after successful application of the "Geizen" principle.
There's a word in English for this! It's Muntzing, after American businessman Earl "Madman" Muntz. His approach to designing televisions was to take a fully working TV, and then remove parts one by one until it stopped working. When it stopped working, he'd put the last part he had taken out back in, make sure the TV still worked, and then he'd go back to removing other parts until he removed another one that caused it to stop working, put that one back in, and so forth ad absurdum, or rather until he had a cheap TV that sorrrta worked, so long as conditions were ideal.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:15 PM on October 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
Those same factors are at play in the UK though. There are no meaningful professional organisations for most building trades, no system of qualifications or professional accountability, nothing.
That is - and I am being polite - complete crap. Nothing? Have you ever actually lived in the UK? I would suggest you find out what the Health and Safety executive and trading standards offices do. Then trying searching for terms like builders register, electricians register etc.
There are a large number professional standards organisations for the building or allied trades*, these are committed to maintaining high standards within their sphere. I have direct experience of those in the plumbing, electrical and gas trades. Additionally there are rigorous training and certification schemes for apprentices and trainees. All reputable firms are registered with a trade organisation which will mediate and arbitrate disputes. We are having work done at the moment following a flood and our restoration tradesmen arrive in vans with about 15-20 professional organisation logos on the side
It is of course possible for the stupid or for cheapskates to hire a cowboy as most trades are not required to be on a register (but e.g. gas engineers must be on the Gas Safe register) but cheapskates get what they pay for.
* Oddly, not plastering but they can join the Federation of Master Builders.
posted by epo at 12:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is - and I am being polite - complete crap. Nothing? Have you ever actually lived in the UK? I would suggest you find out what the Health and Safety executive and trading standards offices do. Then trying searching for terms like builders register, electricians register etc.
There are a large number professional standards organisations for the building or allied trades*, these are committed to maintaining high standards within their sphere. I have direct experience of those in the plumbing, electrical and gas trades. Additionally there are rigorous training and certification schemes for apprentices and trainees. All reputable firms are registered with a trade organisation which will mediate and arbitrate disputes. We are having work done at the moment following a flood and our restoration tradesmen arrive in vans with about 15-20 professional organisation logos on the side
It is of course possible for the stupid or for cheapskates to hire a cowboy as most trades are not required to be on a register (but e.g. gas engineers must be on the Gas Safe register) but cheapskates get what they pay for.
* Oddly, not plastering but they can join the Federation of Master Builders.
posted by epo at 12:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One deleted; if you have comments about the article/subject, please just make those comments directly, without couching them as metacommentary on other people in the thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 6, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 6, 2016
Not so different from what we have in the U.S.,
The CCP loves to tout this line, and you'll see many a prosperous Chinese student echoing it, but don't be fooled: it's really, really, really not true. Regardless of how bad you think things are in the US.
I think we should be careful here not to minimise the problems enumerated in the article. They all exist, on a staggering level. But I disagree with his (largely absent) root cause analysis.
"they are just intrinsically incapable of doing better /caring" is a shitty, racist, argument that the author should be ashamed of.
I note that Japan, for all its beloved kaizen, regularly suffers from colossal corporate scandals - Olympus, Toshiba, Sharp, Mitsubishi,Tepco, that's just off the top of my head. Face saving culture? Prioritising group consensus? I don't know but i don't think they are inherently bound to commit corporate fraud.
The article has the seeds of an interesting discussion, but the execution is poor.
posted by smoke at 1:20 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
The CCP loves to tout this line, and you'll see many a prosperous Chinese student echoing it, but don't be fooled: it's really, really, really not true. Regardless of how bad you think things are in the US.
I think we should be careful here not to minimise the problems enumerated in the article. They all exist, on a staggering level. But I disagree with his (largely absent) root cause analysis.
"they are just intrinsically incapable of doing better /caring" is a shitty, racist, argument that the author should be ashamed of.
I note that Japan, for all its beloved kaizen, regularly suffers from colossal corporate scandals - Olympus, Toshiba, Sharp, Mitsubishi,Tepco, that's just off the top of my head. Face saving culture? Prioritising group consensus? I don't know but i don't think they are inherently bound to commit corporate fraud.
The article has the seeds of an interesting discussion, but the execution is poor.
posted by smoke at 1:20 PM on October 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
"X is the land of Y"
Y = "many contrasts" ∀ X.
posted by BrashTech at 1:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Y = "many contrasts" ∀ X.
posted by BrashTech at 1:53 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wish I could find an article I read in the last few years regarding the quality of machined parts purchased from Alibaba. Someone had something simple (I believe it was a gear) and sent the spec to a few vendors on Alibaba requesting built samples. Some were decent off the bat, but they evaluated the parts, gave specific feedback as to what changes needed to be made and to what standards (metal, construction, fault tolerances) they needed to work to, and the quality improved immensely.
It looks like Alibaba has its own QA service you can now use, but I haven't heard how good it is. But the basic idea is that, without giving someone specific tolerances and ways to ensure the product meets your needs, they will continue to supply you with output of varying quality until called on it.
The same is true of nearly any American factory, especially ones creating parts that will be assembled elsewhere. If your job is to create a wire harness, and you don't actually run wires through it or attach it to anything yourself, eventually all of them look good enough because you have no way of judging the quality of any one component.
posted by mikeh at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2016
It looks like Alibaba has its own QA service you can now use, but I haven't heard how good it is. But the basic idea is that, without giving someone specific tolerances and ways to ensure the product meets your needs, they will continue to supply you with output of varying quality until called on it.
The same is true of nearly any American factory, especially ones creating parts that will be assembled elsewhere. If your job is to create a wire harness, and you don't actually run wires through it or attach it to anything yourself, eventually all of them look good enough because you have no way of judging the quality of any one component.
posted by mikeh at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2016
This is enough of a recognized issue that QA is used as marketing of goods. have you ever been to an IKEA store and seen the little furniture testing machine demonstration next to their chairs? While it's not a guarantee that the same goes on behind the scenes, the pneumatic arm repeatedly applying the simulated pressure of someone sitting down in the same chair model you can buy several feet away is somewhat reassuring that, assembled properly, the chair isn't going to fly apart when you sit in it at home.
posted by mikeh at 2:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikeh at 2:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
idk, For everyone who says here "it's the same everywhere", it really isn't. This is an anecdote, not data-- a friend of mine in Hong Kong is an interior designer who was hired to work in big residential building projects across the border in Shenzhen. She quit in tears because they were expecting her to act as an interior architect and she was terribly afraid a building she worked on was going to kill somebody. She was being asked to plan electricity and weight bearing walls. When she tried to explain that while she knew something about it, designers weren't trained to do this kind of work and they completely didn't understand why she was making such a fuss. She said the really terrifying thing was that she was probably the most qualified of the people working on the apartments. And even worse still, only the highest end projects had anyone at all in her kind of function.
This said, I am not a huge fan of the article's tone-- the writer kind of gets at the problem of class and money, but then dismisses it in favour of a sad requiem for a love of craft. There are a lot of old British folk in Hong Kong who have been here 30 years and they do this similar sad beery rant about the death of "craftsmen" in Hong Kong, and they completely fail to recognise the role they have played in creating this society.
(Hong Kong can be the strangest worst combination of Chinese and British hierarchy and authoritarian culture. HR here! Gah.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
This said, I am not a huge fan of the article's tone-- the writer kind of gets at the problem of class and money, but then dismisses it in favour of a sad requiem for a love of craft. There are a lot of old British folk in Hong Kong who have been here 30 years and they do this similar sad beery rant about the death of "craftsmen" in Hong Kong, and they completely fail to recognise the role they have played in creating this society.
(Hong Kong can be the strangest worst combination of Chinese and British hierarchy and authoritarian culture. HR here! Gah.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
My favorite bit of chabuduo has to be the time I was teaching a child and looked out to see someone cutting the power lines to our school with some bolt cutters. They didn't turn the power off, they actually cut the line.
According to my local friends, the way to become a builder is to buy tools. If you want to shock a Chinese person, tell them how much an electrician can make. As a fairly handy person, I walk past the broken tiles, the planks on the floor that don't touch, the lack of insulation (in a city regularly below -20) and think I could do a better job of it. Even the people in the nice building still have this, it's just coated in a slightly higher veneer.
posted by Trifling at 7:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
According to my local friends, the way to become a builder is to buy tools. If you want to shock a Chinese person, tell them how much an electrician can make. As a fairly handy person, I walk past the broken tiles, the planks on the floor that don't touch, the lack of insulation (in a city regularly below -20) and think I could do a better job of it. Even the people in the nice building still have this, it's just coated in a slightly higher veneer.
posted by Trifling at 7:33 PM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
美国差不多一样
posted by grobstein at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not really just wanted to make a pun
posted by grobstein at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
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posted by Countess Elena at 7:24 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]