♪♫ Don’t modulate the key then not debate with me!
October 9, 2016 5:37 PM   Subscribe

With just a month to go until the election (and after a Trumpian pre-debate shitshow) Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off again in the second presidential debate at Washington University in St. Louis at 9PM Eastern Time. Print out your Bingo cards and tune into any major network (Channel 4 in the UK) or listen on NPR. Alternately, watch on one of YouTube's channels (NBC, PBS, Fox News, the Washington Post). Twitter will stream Bloomberg. Facebook has ABC and PBS. C-SPAN has its own feed (C-SPAN Radio is also streaming.) You can even watch in virtual reality (Gear, Rift, or Vive) via AltspaceVR.

CNN's Anderson Cooper and ABC's Martha Raddatz will be moderating. This debate is different from the others, using a Town Hall format where questions will be posed both from undecided voters selected by the Gallup organization and, for the first time, from the internet. The next and final presidential debate, on Oct. 19th, will be in the traditional format.

Per mod request, try not to post reactions without context. Remember that people will be trying to make sense of this thread days (or years) from now. If you need to post "OMG!" in real time, use our Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for connecting with Adium, Monal, and Apple Messages. A longer list of Jabber-compatible clients is here.)

Don't know what the JCPL is? Check out the wiki page for in-joke explanations and tips on managing long threads. If you need voter information, lampshade posted a collection of links (additionally, you can register at vote.gov.) To discuss things like why in-title tags don't belong on the Blue, see the MetaTalk post.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (4000 comments total) 82 users marked this as a favorite
 
this could be the darkest day our country has had since 9/11
posted by pyramid termite at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


i've got my ancient looted pot ready for any last minute sacrifices
posted by poffin boffin at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


@alivitali

Tonight in unprompted texts from GOP sources: "Godspeed." #debates
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016


In an unprecedented move, Donald Trump will tonight be replaced with an animatronic version of himself controlled collaboratively via Twitch.
posted by indubitable at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


oh boy, is this great!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


[A]phasic patients are better able to tell when someone is lying, fearful, or hiding something. ... I was curious: How might aphasic patients interpret the body language of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump—particularly during the presidential debate? What kinds of language did they pick up on, and what did they think the takeaway messages of the debate were?
How aphasic patients understood the [first Clinton/Trump] presidential debate
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


I'm about to vomit.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm scared. Somebody hug me
posted by Red Loop at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Guys I'm in the car somewhere on I-71 S, north of Columbus, OH (my husband is driving) so we will be counting on you to do a good job reporting when we inevitably lose NPR signal.
posted by cooker girl at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just donated again. It's all I can do.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm eating now so I don't puke barf everywhere.
posted by vrakatar at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Last week I was suddenly very sick right before the veep debate. Throat was very swollen, painful. Hard to sleep. But I got better!

Last night, my whole body started aching. Throat is OK. Just, tired. Tired and drippy and sad. And everything hurts and my brain isn't working right.

I hope I get better.

I hope this election season wraps up very soon.
posted by rebent at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Katy Tur, Sopan Deb, Ali Vitali, David Fahrenthold, and Jenna Johnson all deserve medals for their absolutely incredibly Trump trailing through the campaign.
posted by Talez at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


"Keepin' it 1600 Live" currently talking before the debate.
posted by lazugod at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The people in the audience tonight have no idea what they've gotten themselves into.
posted by guiseroom at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016


I HAVE RESTOCKED THE SRIRACHA PEAS

although given that I'm alone, maybe I should just leave them in the pantry in case Trump proclaims himself the greatest defender of women that America has ever seen or something
posted by indubitable at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Comic relief for anyone who needs it after Trump's grotesque stunt.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This will be gross as fuck but She's Got This!
posted by vuron at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


This is the only opportunity I've ever had to get in early on an election thread.

So, um, AMERICA PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't vote for the Orange Troll.

That's all I got. Thank you for your time.
posted by awfurby at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Fuck yeah. We are ready for this. #debateprep
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Getting out the bottle of Balvenie 15
posted by Ber at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I said this at the tail end of the other thread but it's a shame there's no way to pull the plug on this when we can all see how destructive Trump is willing to be.
posted by gerryblog at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016


(should the (excellent) title have [Election 2016] in it to help keep things neat?)
posted by TwoStride at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


well, I didn't watch any of the last Olympics either ...
posted by philip-random at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm so scared.
posted by mynameisluka at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Splendid title. Godspeed, everyone.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


All I can think about right now is how no one who associated with Trump should be allowed to scrub that stench off of them for their future careers, whatever those end up looking like. That shame needs to follow them to their goddamn graves.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


I'd just like to say thank you, to both the mods, and the mefites that post these threads.
posted by valkane at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


I am supposed to be cooking dinner and instead I'm glued. This is going to be an insane trainwreck and I don't know who the explosion is going to get on.
posted by corb at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think the stunt may very well go down in electoral history as the Cheap Shot Heard 'Round The World.

Trump is a professional entertainer. Spectacle is his bag, baby. But Hillary is a professional politician, and this is politics.

As (IIRC) Sparklemotion said in one of the recent threads -- The pig is coming to wallow in the mud, but the butcher has other ideas.
posted by tclark at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


Comic relief for anyone who needs it after Trump's grotesque stunt.

I was only able to bear 10 seconds of that.
posted by dis_integration at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The people in the audience tonight have no idea what they've gotten themselves into.
Wow. I didn't even think of that. Do you think they have any idea what's going on? Are you allowed to bring your cell phone to a presidential debate?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHO THE FUCK ARE THESE UNDECIDED PEOPLE? How is UNDECIDED even possible?
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [53 favorites]


I'm so so SO glad I have Metafilter and you all right now.

Thank you.
posted by Salieri at 5:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


To be honest, I'm very worried. A complete shit show.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Flashback: Donald Trump called Bill Clinton's Accusers Terrible and Unattractive [real, abcnews]
posted by jferg at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm looking forward to this debate so much, I'm not even drinking.
posted by Gelatin at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tequila shots every time Trump says "Okay!?" at the end of sentence.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016


morituri te salutant, everyone. I couldn't deal with the trash fire we are about to witness without you guys. You guys and alcohol. Good luck.
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Glad the Raiders didn't have the Sunday night game this week, I can actually catch one of the debates!
posted by clorox at 5:43 PM on October 9, 2016


Warming up with some wine. Because I'm super classy tonight.

Still not ruling out tequila.

I hope Hills beats the snot out of the talking yam and quotes the bible while she's at it.
posted by zennie at 5:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Some words are best not spoken, some things are best not said
But since this is your public execution I think I'm gonna go right on ahead"
posted by pyramid termite at 5:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just keep reminding myself that in all likelihood she will be president and he will slip deeper and deeper into shameful obscurity until his ignoble death. And this is just a blip.
posted by vverse23 at 5:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Flashback: Donald Trump called Bill Clinton's Accusers Terrible and Unattractive [real, abcnews]

Everyone is running with that right now. Trump's 1998 remarks juxtapose so nicely.
posted by Talez at 5:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


We're all going to be fine. Tomorrow morning Michelle and Barack, Chelsea and James Carville and Jennifer Granville and David Corn and every A+ surrogate is going to have a beautifully crafted message and Donald will lose more supporters.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I actually think it's quite sweet that one of the commissioners took a moment to acknowledge the sound and lighting guys who were testing all the mikes and setting everything up - not only because it's wise to address the "is Trump's mike working" thing, but also because she's showing techies some love woo
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


So what circle of hell is reserved for those demagogues that would exploit the suffering of others for their own benefit?

Not that I think this will benefit Trump but holy shit is he building up a karmic debt of massive proportions.
posted by vuron at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I normally don't watch reality tv but I'll make an exception for this
posted by localhuman at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ex Bush 43 spokeswoman Nicolle Wallace on MSNBC: "This is what's happening in the Republican Party... This is the bottom dropping out... This is what it looks like."
posted by tonycpsu at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


In case anyone missed it, here's Charles Pierce's most recent piece:

America Has Been Waiting for Donald Trump: He is not an aberration. He is the culmination.
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


(should the (excellent) title have [Election 2016] in it to help keep things neat?)

NO.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The amount of humiliation I want this man to suffer does me no credit as a human being.
posted by bibliowench at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [87 favorites]


Any advice on what's the best/most stable/least filled with annoying commentary stream?
posted by medusa at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016


It's a complete shit-show that the Clinton camp knew might very well be coming, and she's typically been really cool under pressure. And Donald can't handle a real debate. All she needs to do is roll her eyes, say it's clearly a desperate ploy and that she respects the office and the process enough to ignore it, and then do her thing while he yells. He can't answer actual questions.

But she will probably be happy to get a question about her fucking emails, which makes for an interesting change.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:45 PM on October 9, 2016


Hugh Hewitt thinks there will be a shitload of further desertions tomorrow, possibly even Ryan, after how he expects this to go tonight.
posted by chris24 at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


oh, there will be booing
posted by angrybear at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Overheard: A reporter in St. Louis saying: "Trump is using these women as human shields."

HOOOOOOOOOLY. This is backfiring so hard.
posted by Talez at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [65 favorites]


Anderson Cooper and Martha Raddatz backstage right now working out who gets to shout "FIINIISH HIIM!!" tonight.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


WHO THE FUCK ARE THESE UNDECIDED PEOPLE? How is UNDECIDED even possible?
If you're "undecided" by now you shouldn't get to vote.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I have no alcohol. Drinking and driving (at some point I will be taking a driving turn) is generally discouraged.

I do have some Good & Plenty, though.
posted by cooker girl at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'll recap at the head of this what I alluded to in the last thread. I'm fucking furious at Trump's latest stunt, and I'm rage donating again. However, I'm going to donate to the PEC High Impact Races fund administered by ActBlue. Barring the unseen, I think Hillary winning is a done deal at this point, and what I want to do is now put money on the down-ticket races that can help take over the Senate, too.

The Republicans are in disorder and and it's only going to worsen as the month goes on and Donnie continues to flame out. This is a great time to take the opening and exploit it.

That's what I plan on doing, anyway. I'd suggest you think about it, too.
posted by jammer at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Does anyone have a link to actual printable bingo cards? The ones linked in the FPP are not set up for printing
posted by clorox at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016


mefites are the only ones i want to be with watching this debate
posted by 404 Not Found at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


Esta Nevada, Donner Party. Winter is Coming.
posted by effluvia at 5:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


What could possibly go wrong?
Oh right...western civilization.
posted by uosuaq at 5:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Really wish I had a way to donate to her campaign. Sadly, I'm Canadian. I really don't want this walking dumpster fire to be the President. It's not just your country that suffers, it's the world. Good luck people, my prayers are with you all.
posted by Fizz at 5:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have a mug of spiced rum, twitter on my phone and this thread on the iPad. Locked and loaded!
posted by jazon at 5:47 PM on October 9, 2016


How could that press conference possibly be a winning strategy?

I can't bear to watch, but I'll be here with you guys tonight. She's got this.
posted by Otherwise at 5:47 PM on October 9, 2016


Bad news: I'm on vicodin because of broken ribs so I can't drink.

Good news: I'm on vicodin.
posted by chris24 at 5:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [63 favorites]


The amount of humiliation I want this man to suffer does me no credit as a human being.

i mean yes of course humiliation but definitely also a genetically engineered species of furious indestructible hornets that are uncontrollably attracted to his butt
posted by poffin boffin at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


Has a nominee ever self-immolated on live TV?
posted by orange ball at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I HAVE RESTOCKED THE SRIRACHA PEAS


What is this sorcery and how am I just learning of it?
posted by 4ster at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


sio42, every second of Trump speaking is much like every other second. His markov chains only go about 5 words deep.
posted by joeyh at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


On the Washington Post live stream, they seem to be implying that the Clinton transcripts are horrible and would have sunk her but Trump is just that much worse. I disagree with their comments but it's just so silly hearing media even now try to make a horse race.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Myself and Mrs. Fleebnork have checked out of a lot of political stuff in recent weeks, but we have Cheetos and popcorn at the ready. Here's to hoping Trump has an epic meltdown during tonight's debate.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016


I have a feeling this will be the day I run out of favorites.
posted by ogooglebar at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's 02:48 and I have no snacks or drank but I am committed
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the stunt may very well go down in electoral history as the Cheap Shot Heard 'Round The World.

At some point the media & politicians will have to reckon with whether or not Trump just undermined the next president (hell, even if he somehow won just for the sake of argument) with foreign leaders.

Except I'm pretty sure even our worst enemies abroad haven't brought up shit like this. I know I haven't heard of it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:49 PM on October 9, 2016



So yeah. After tonight I'm pretty much over the suggestion that I need to try to understand where Trump supporters are coming from. I've always been pretty compassionate and trying to put myself in other shoes type person, sometimes too much so but that part of me when it comes to support for this man has been completely and utterly shredded. I'm also at the point where I just don't care that I don't care.

Deplorable is hindsight is the perfect word for this pile of shit.
posted by Jalliah at 5:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


Just saw a shot of Clinton walking in with Chelsea's arm around her. I'm tearing up.
posted by zachlipton at 5:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


Could we please, please not refer to people who are voting for people we dislike as stupid or ignorant or any variant of that?

These are citizens who are born with basically the same hardware we are. They disagree with us for reasons that they may understand better than we do, or that we understand differently.

If you are worried for the future of this Democracy, if you want to do _something_, start figuring out how to figure out how to communicate with them. If it seems impossible, think some more.

If you feel like fight or flight, maybe solving problems with your brain -- in whatever way you can -- is the fight.

Of course, venting is important too. Just, don't only vent :)
posted by amtho at 5:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [35 favorites]



Anderson Cooper and Martha Raddatz backstage right now working out who gets to shout "FIINIISH HIIM!!" tonight.

The other one gets to lean in and say "toasty!"
posted by Ragged Richard at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, we're NOT having the "please think of Trump supporters" argument again here and now.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [54 favorites]


Sadly, I'm Canadian.

Hey, nobody's perfect.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uh oh, Hillary had her arm around Chelsea and vice versa as they exited the cars and headed up the stairs. CLEARLY she's too frail to even walk out there on her own. Sad.
posted by splen at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I had a big glass of the wine that was thoughtfully left behind by a party guest last night, and also a huge bowl of pumpkin pie ice cream. I'm as ready for this as I'll ever be.
posted by PearlRose at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@davidfrum
4b) A wronged wife’s power to forgive or not forgive is near absolute. Nobody except ultra-partisans will blame whichever choice she makes
posted by chris24 at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here are the top 5 questions on presidentialopenquestions.com, voted on by people on the internet. The moderators said they would consider the top questions for inclusion tonight.
(1) How will you ensure the 2nd amendment is protected?
(2) Would you support requiring criminal background checks for all gun sales?
(3) Do you support expanding, and not cutting, Social Security's modest benefits?
(4) As president, What are the steps you will take to address climate change?
(5) Would you act to repeal citizens united?
Running a close 6th: "Would you support term limits for members of Congress and the Supreme Court?"
posted by cashman at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


What the shit is up with the media blaming HRC for the current discourse level. She'd didn't leak the damn Access Hollywood tape.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


andrew kaczynski ‏@KFILE
Is there a nickname for tonight's debate?

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann
THE ARISTOCRATS!

Keith Olbermann is on fire tonight!
posted by Talez at 5:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [38 favorites]


Any advice on what's the best/most stable/least filled with annoying commentary stream?

C-SPAN's feed has no commentary at all. I don't know if any other might be better quality.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Okay. I have all the drugs I need to cope with this experience, I hope. Let's get it on. (Please, god, let the whiskey, two kinds of cider, four kinds of beer, and three strains of marijuana be enough. )

(I also have chips and salsa. I hope I do not throw them at the TV.)
posted by palomar at 5:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Everyone who has made these posts has done such a great job, and your titles have been perfect.
posted by gladly at 5:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm gonna watch this one on an actual TV (at least for a while) rather than online, so no commenting from me.
But thank you all for helping me through all this awful shit. I've been very well informed through this election, and I credit a lot of that to Metafilter.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is the backfire heard round the world.
posted by humanfont at 5:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHO THE FUCK ARE THESE UNDECIDED PEOPLE? How is UNDECIDED even possible?

Undecided when they responded to Gallup. Not necessarily since Friday.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have never in my life donated to a political campaign. I just sent Hillary $25 in defiance of the ratfucking stunt.
posted by tclark at 5:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Make America Drink Again!
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


The bottle of Glencadam 21 y.o is open. This is history in the making.
posted by dazed_one at 5:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sort of fascinating to watch non-political people on my twitter stream come out in support of Hillary in the past ten minutes.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


4b) A wronged wife’s power to forgive or not forgive is near absolute. Nobody except ultra-partisans will blame whichever choice she makes

Yeah, but we can sure as shit blame the asshole who's using their desperation and grief in service of gutter politics.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Everyone who has made these posts has done such a great job, and your titles have been perfect.

This one has been the working title for every debate thread. Weird how it became perfect at the last moment.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Mod note: Several comments deleted, be warned that I will be just handing out nights off without warning from here on. Drop it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [54 favorites]


Doing it sober again, but this time I have guacamole!

May Trump turn a similar shade of green.
posted by mochapickle at 5:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@jelani9
"It's odd that Trump thinks he can unsettle HRC by attacking her literally on the one thing she's most accustomed to being attacked on."
posted by chris24 at 5:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


What's the over-under for # of unendorsements made during the debate?
posted by birdheist at 5:54 PM on October 9, 2016


The accusers have been seated.
posted by xyzzy at 5:54 PM on October 9, 2016


getting psyched for republican ragnarok
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


So for now I've given up on catching up with the latest election thread. Perhaps tehhund and I will run into each other there in a couple of weeks.
posted by bardophile at 5:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm terrified, but so glad to be with all y'all tonight.
posted by merriment at 5:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I am out of favorites (around noon on the previous election thread.) Consider all Hillary-positive posts favorited.
I'll be here in spirit. Fight the good fight. Get out and vote!
posted by TrishaU at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016


Bill Clinton shaking the hands of the Trump family. Chelsea is not with him, sitting elsewhere I guess.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Brian Williams is moaning on and on about the discourse. Said he wanted to be back in the Victorian era. Go for it Bri, they used to lobotomize habitual liars back then too.

I guess it bothers me because this isn't some issue with "mudslinging" THERE IS A NARCISSISTIC GOLD LEAF TYRANT IN THE RACE.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I won't watch it. I can't watch it. For the sake of my mental health. I'm using Metafilter and Twitter to tell me what I need to know. That the fate of the world is being decided by this is too much to comprehend.
posted by monkeymike at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Stoli, T3s, and my boyfriend. My body is ready.
posted by sixswitch at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016


Can someone please tell me what the accuser stuff is? It's difficult for me to google right now. Trump did a Facebook live thing with them? Who, exactly? And now they're at the debate?
posted by cooker girl at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016


ooh, hard look from bill towards the audience - very awkward
posted by pyramid termite at 5:56 PM on October 9, 2016


Sorry, Chelsea and her husband are sitting with Bill, but did not walk in with him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016


Now I have a crushes on two reporters.

Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald 3m3 minutes ago
We're 10 minutes from the start of the debate. Ill be doing my best to offer running commentary on whats being said. Unless Im throwing up.
posted by Jalliah at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Jitters shit: This is the moment in the movie where the underdog turns it around. While I know the movies do not always reflect reality, I'm unsure if the news media recognizes this.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016


I hope the Trump clan feels shame tonight.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyway Hi everyone.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016


Interesting that Bill shook hands with Melania and all of the Trump spawn, but Chelsea (and her husband) was spared having to shake hands with all of them?
posted by porpoise at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Feeling simultaneously giddily excited and terrified right now.
posted by joedan at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016


Blanket fort and popcorn. Cocktails are almost done. We are ready.
posted by rtha at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


Melanie walked out with the Trump children; Bill walked out alone and is seated next to Chelsea and Marc.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016


I'm surprised Trump didn't bring Bill Cosby along to make himself look better.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


It's times like this I wish I drank.
posted by tetsuo at 5:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Due to horrible planning I have no wine or beer and I have gin and limes but no tonic.
I'm gonna have to break out the tequila.
This never ends well, but I figure it's fitting on such a deplorable night.
posted by Superplin at 5:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bill looks PISSED.
posted by mudpuppie at 5:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Cooker girl, see the shitshow link in the post.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Debate Night II: The Weirdening.
posted by uosuaq at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bill Clinton looks worn out and tired.
posted by dazed_one at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can someone please tell me what the accuser stuff is? It's difficult for me to google right now. Trump did a Facebook live thing with them? Who, exactly? And now they're at the debate?

He tricked the press into coming into what they thought was him prepping. Several women who have accused Bill were sitting with him like a press conference.
Now they are in the hall.
posted by Jalliah at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016


Bill looks PISSED.

Fuck Bill. Melania looks like she's ready to stab a bitch.
posted by Talez at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


Melania is stone-faced.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This man is absolute clown meconium. I am so grateful for this live blogging space with you folks.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


They all look super tense
posted by Tarumba at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016


Everyone looks tense and uncomfortable.
posted by medusa at 5:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


If you have a tv that connects to the internet, search YouTube for cspan and the live stream is there. No annoying commentary at all other than from the candidates.
posted by winna at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016


Don't worry, tetsuo, I'm drinking enough for like four MeFites tonight. I got you covered.
posted by palomar at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I saw Bannon walking in but not Conway. Is she there with Team Trump onsite tonight?
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016


He's looked like that since he lost all that weight.
posted by INFJ at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jinx Tarumba.
posted by medusa at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Welcome to The Howard Beale Show
posted by growabrain at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's interesting to note that the only 2 family members that aren't showing concern and shame on their face are the two Trump boys. They just look smug.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've literally taken to my bed. Partly because i had to get up at 4:30 this morning to catch a plane but also partly because I'm completely out of evens and i can't watch this.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


There was just a kid from Singapore on (CSPAN), the university's student union president. He gave a brief statement about democracy spreading across the world, and then mentioned that some unfortunately leaders undermine it. What would ordinarily be a bland observation is pointed in this election.
posted by zennie at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Just wanted to say good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by zachlipton at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Best off-label use of meconium I've seen, Countess.
posted by mollweide at 6:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


...To be honest, even after everything people have been saying here, and how obvious this attack has been over the past week, I'm still worried about this. I feel like Hillary's typical reaction to this sort of nonsense is to shut it down and ignore it, but on TV that's going to look like her ignoring sexual assault victims.

...Sigggghhhhh :(
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016


Seriously! Look! Melania ready to kill the next person she sees.
posted by Talez at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Got my lucky rocketship underpants, bike helmet, and bag of TastySnax! Let's Do This!
posted by petebest at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm just going to sit here and be sick with worry. Can't bring myself to watch. Have this thread and another friend liveblogging.

Good luck, everyone, and thanks, MetaFilter.
posted by seyirci at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ooh, C-SPAN site has a button to switch between switched-camera and split-screen feeds.
posted by box at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016


That set is so United Federation of Planets.
posted by valkane at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I know that Chelsea Clinton has been dealing with all these attacks on her parents for has long as she can remember, but it still must suck.
posted by medusa at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Bill Clinton looks worn out and tired.

He's been putting in a lot of campaign miles this past week (on top of a trip to Israel and back with POTUS for Shimon Peres's funeral) and I think he's had hecklers at all of his events. So, yeah.
posted by holgate at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


PBS is on. Red five I'm going in.
posted by vrakatar at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


This is an extremely intimate-looking setting. Everyone looks grim as hell.
posted by winna at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


@LOLGOP
The only joy in this night is knowing Paul Ryan, Reince Priebus and Mike Pence own it forever.
posted by chris24 at 6:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Can't wait for the questions from undecided voters. Given the economy, could we really afford to spend billions to rescue Matt Damon from Mars? What would your policy be for astronaut death panels?
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump's second son has a weirdly uninterested expression on his face
posted by Tarumba at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016


The first debate was a three-beer debate for me. The second I had only one beer. This time I have a pitcher of margaritas ready.
posted by ogooglebar at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm eating tacos, seemed an appropriate debate watching dinner.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I tell ya gang, I'm not sure my son should be allowed to watch the debate, I'm so afraid of how it's going to go. This trumptastrophe is terrifying.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lots of chatter among commentators on MSNBC about a flood of current Trump-supporting Rs repulsed by the pre-debate stunt and ready to withdraw support.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I drank what I thought would be enough, but now that I am here, it seems that I am unprepared.
posted by Quonab at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


So Trump's big play is to have Clinton's accusers in the audience? Weak sauce.
posted by Gelatin at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016


WHO THE FUCK ARE THESE UNDECIDED PEOPLE? How is UNDECIDED even possible?

Rip Van Winkle, just returned space travellers, etc.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


do you think Trump might not even come out?
posted by rebent at 6:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thank goodness for CSPAN in times like this.
posted by mollweide at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Bill Clinton and Chelsea talking like normal human beings. Trumps completely silent
posted by Tarumba at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think we're about to see a master class tonight in threading the needle. As much a debate as audition for how she'll handle pressure.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have a whole bottle of prosecco, Nutella and Granny Smith apples.
posted by winna at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


wolf is like
i hope they dont go to the gutter
where were you wolf
this is the gutter
wait
wait
ill get james earl to say it
THIS IS CNN
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


If anybody else needs an alternative to watch to cope, can I suggest Starling and her kittens?
posted by Sequence at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Come on! Let's here it! "Ladies and Gentlemen, Donald Trump is missing!"
posted by Talez at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016


CSPAN is quiet . . . too quiet . . . completely quiet. *checks mute button*
posted by petebest at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Stay calm. Tonight is when Hilary Clinton will show why she should be president and why a bunch of Republicans are going to be marked with a Scarlet T.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


One of NBC's talking heads just described the weekend as "the worst 72 hours of Trump's campaign."

Yeah, aside from all the previous 72 hours.
posted by Gelatin at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here we go.
posted by bardophile at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2016


So what circle of hell is reserved for those demagogues that would exploit the suffering of others for their own benefit?

I don't know but my money's on False Counselors or Sowers Of Discord for Trump's reservation.
posted by thelonius at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ivanka looks like she is barely able to stomach this. A thin veil of composure but very unhappy and mildly disgusted underneath.
posted by rmless at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm one Loko in, three to go.
posted by peeedro at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump's sons look like extras from Boiler Room.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's interesting to note that the only 2 family members that aren't showing concern and shame on their face are the two Trump boys. They just look smug.

Not their fault. It's Resting Trump Face.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [36 favorites]


My body is ready.
posted by notquitemaryann at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is Namor Gandalf, he won't take no shit.
posted by vrakatar at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I feel really bad for Melania (I know, I know) and just absolutely sick for Chelsea.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


CSPAN is quiet . . . too quiet . . . completely quiet. *checks mute button*

I did the same thing.
I'm sure there will be plenty of noise soon.
posted by Superplin at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't watch either. This feels too much like a live remake of Ringu.
posted by holgate at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


PBS table all agreeing so far that this is diastrous for Trump (Brooks: "this will backfire badly"), talking about how it's a race to the bottom, vulgar, etc.

Where can I find Ana Navarro commentary? CNN?
posted by TwoStride at 6:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ivanka looks like she is barely able to stomach this. A thin veil of composure but very unhappy and mildly disgusted underneath.

So, another Sunday night?
posted by rokusan at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's interesting to note that the only 2 family members that aren't showing concern and shame on their face are the two Trump boys. They just look smug.
Looking forward to picking up babes after the show.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, real profiles of courage, these Republicans who are ready to withdraw their support tonight.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


No shaking of the hands??! Oh thank you.
posted by RedEmma at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is Namor Gandalf, he won't take no shit.

Thank you for naming my cat.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Didn't shake. Good start.
posted by perhapses at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


No handshake!
posted by Countess Elena at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


Oooh no handshake
posted by bardophile at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


No hand shaking of any kind predebate
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


Ooooh, no handshake...
posted by jferg at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


Thank you for not shaking his hand.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


First debate without a handshake? Has that happened before?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here we go
posted by ogooglebar at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


She looks great. No handshake.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


No handshake. Good.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


No handshake Awesome!
posted by valkane at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016


Oooh, no handshake. Not even an offer from either one.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary has a HUGE smile on her face.
posted by medusa at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


WHO PUTS UNDECIDED VOTERS ON THE STAGE? THESE ARE THE DUMBEST...oh, forget it. Sorry.
posted by uosuaq at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


No handshake! 💙
posted by phunniemee at 6:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton looks happy, Trump looks constipated and immediately hid behind the podium. Completely defensive.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


she's looking confident and relaxed - he's looking like he just woke up from the tanning bed

no handshake?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, that's the first time I haven't seen the candidates shake hands.
posted by joedan at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's looking extra orange tonight.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


No handshake. GOOD.
posted by palomar at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump won't even make eye contact with the lady asking the first question for more than a split second... wtf
posted by emptythought at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016


Waitwhatnohandshake. The gloves are off.
posted by dazed_one at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


First question is about modeling appropriate behavior?!
posted by medusa at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Are the things you say in debates suitable for kids to see" [summary] is a fab opening question.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


The first question is kind of an odd softball.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ooh, no handshake. Clinton says hello to the audience.
posted by Gelatin at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016


I don't believe the poor Ivanka narrative.
posted by armacy at 6:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


For a brief moment, as they went to their stools after they came out,, I was afraid Trump was going to sit down Riker style.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Shallow filter: I wish Hillary's suit was brighter/cheerier.
posted by TwoStride at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Do you feel you are modeling good behavior for today's youth?"
posted by winna at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


good first weaponized question targeted at trump
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


They did not shake hands when they came out. Hillary stood far enough away that it would have been awkward if Donald had reached for her.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


The only way I can make sense of the "undecided voters" at this point is that they are just sneaky people who really wanted to get into an event, like how I used to lie at the door of clubs...
posted by rmless at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm glad they didn't fake any courtesy.
First question: Are you modeling appropriate behavior during the debates, given that many teachers ask their students to watch them for educational purposes?
posted by Superplin at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


She's smooth, positive answer.
posted by tetsuo at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


oh, yes, she's totally on target, totally on game
posted by pyramid termite at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


Look at how he's breathing and grinding his jaw also, dudes geeeeeked
posted by emptythought at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm at work, my workmates are following different streams, so I got 'oh, she didn't even shake his hand' twice, a few seconds apart. Followed by a ripple of laughter.

I can't (bear to) watch this, thanks to those of you who are.
posted by Pink Frost at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016


Overcoming divisiveness. Brilliant answer.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah! nice suit Mrs. C! Blue with white lapels. Trump in the usual. Red tie.

No handshaking, "hello . . hello"s

"The last presidential debate could have been rated MA . . knowing the debates are assigned for homework, what are your thoughts"

HRC: It's important to make clear to our children that our country is great because we're good. We're going to respect one another, lift each other up, and celebrate our diversity. Bring them in to working on behalf of our country. I'm positive . . . if we overcome the divisiveness and instead make some big goals - economy for everyone, not just at the top - making sure we have the best education system, and so much else, if we set those goals, there's nothing America can do.

Looking relaxed.
posted by petebest at 6:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Who is That Guy - dude with red tie who have... bird moves? Aisle seat to Trump's right?

His name is Johnny Bird Moves. So mote it be.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


What a gorgeous suit she's got! It looks like something Riker would wear on Risa

It remains to be seen if Clinton sits like Riker.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Remember, if you have a comment that's less than five words long, it'd probably fit better in metafilter chat.
posted by fomhar at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


More shallow filter: Donald should unbutton his jacket when sitting; it's bunching weirdly.
posted by TwoStride at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016


She's getting some good lines in there, but she isn't really answering the question. But I guess that question wasn't really for her?
posted by frumiousb at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


C-SPAN feed feels like their servers are taking a much bigger hit than the first debate (stutter, compression artefacts).
posted by porpoise at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Trump's tie so long?
posted by moons in june at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


She is awesome.
posted by valkane at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016


Well, this was a soft-serve opening for Clinton. She's only kinda-sorta answering it, though, by pushing her "Stronger Together" motif.
posted by Superplin at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought America WASN'T great, hence his candidacy. Ugh.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump with the change-up opener
posted by thelonius at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump trying to do soft-spoken is... creepy.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Do the undecideds have to be undecided between Trump and Clinton? Do people who are considering not voting or writing-in or a third party count? Because I feel like those people would have more interesting questions.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He just said this is a great country why make it great again?
posted by vrakatar at 6:08 PM on October 9, 2016


Hillary starting strong "were good people" as usual sounding massively well prepared.

H is for Hermione :) who as a girl also punched a boy in defense of animals (only a hippogriff instead of bunnies)
posted by Tarumba at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


He's staying subdued for the opening few sentences at least.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Donald is going over his greatest hits.

And sniffing , a lot.
posted by Yowser at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


donald trump's tired of foolish things happening to our country? - hey, i'm tired of this beer i'm drinking - no, i'm not ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Sniffles! What's the over/under on minutes until unhinged Donald appears?
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump is doing a great Baldwin impression.
posted by mikelieman at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Setting a timer on how long it takes Donny to get from snooze to rage.
posted by Sara C. at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


What the fuck is he going on about? None of this has anything to do with the question.
posted by yasaman at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uh oh Trump sniffing again
posted by Tarumba at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


They each have mics in hand, but Hillary has a nice white lapel mic but Donald doesnt seem to have one.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


First audible sniff from Trump!
posted by TwoStride at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


I had to switch to a YouTube feed. Cspan just kept cutting
out.
posted by tingting at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh my god give Trump a tissue. With the sniffles, again.
posted by Windigo at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


He can't fucking go positive!
posted by rdr at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


The snort is back!
posted by penduluum at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is answering the question to the camera, ignoring the teacher. He appears to be having a diabetic event, and is arguably about to pass out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, what was the question?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Sniffling again.
posted by chris24 at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Neither of them really answered the question, but what else were they going to do? Trump certainly isn't going to say, "Yeah, I'm a disgusting pig."
posted by Sangermaine at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Horrible things like Obamacare? The ACA is saving my sister's life.

And law and order whistle blowing. Here we go.
posted by joycehealy at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's been hitting the horse tranquilizers.
posted by ostro at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Inconcievable!"
posted by mikelieman at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016


Also not answering the question!
posted by cooker girl at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the other hand, Trump isn't answering it at all. He is saying nothing about modeling good behavior. He's just stating his platform. Blech.
posted by Superplin at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016


Boom cooper!
posted by ian1977 at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's superunfocused, and has begun to sniff.
posted by vrakatar at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


My daughter, who turns ten this month, is super into this election. She's a big Clinton supporter. She watched the first debate, and I'm not going to let Trump ruin her chance to watch this historic campaign. She's watching this debate with me and if Trump can't behave himself then that's on him. I'm glad the first question reminded the candidates who is watching them tonight.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Let's go Anderson!
posted by mollweide at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump just sniffed again.
posted by Gelatin at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Q. Appropriate behavior. Trumps answer not responsive. Obamacare, sniffing, bring back jobs, justice. Inner cities better for African Americans who are so great.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: I agree with everything she said. I began this campaign because I was so tired of seeing foolish things happen to this country. I've been meeting people as a politician (cant' believe myself calling myself a politician) . . Obamacare health insurance is going up by 59%, 71%, etc. we give 150 Billion dollars to the number one terrorist state . . . we have such tremendous potential. Last year we had an 800BN trade deficit. Inconcievable, who's making these deals. Strong border. Law and order. 2 policemen shot. We have to bring back respect. Plus those who need justice. Make the innercities better for the african americans who are so great.

Looking tired.
posted by petebest at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


trump rambles on by not answering the question
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016


He's throwing out all his greatest hits in his first answer. Where's he's going to go now?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anderson Cooper needs like, a dozen fruit baskets for that question
posted by Torosaurus at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


THAT IS TOO WHAT YOU SAID YOU ASSHOLE
posted by cooker girl at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016


"You bragged you sexually assaulted women"

Apologized to everyone besides the women in question.
posted by mhz at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton starting strong with feelings (positivity, inclusiveness, goal-setting), and Trump is out of the gate with statistics (ones pulled seemingly from his ass, but they're numbers all the same).

Interestingly different.
posted by Room 101 at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anderson accuses Trump of having bragged about sexually assaulting women.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it me or does he look terrible? The sniffing, it's like he can't catch his breath.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is completely avoiding the question of Are you modeling appropriate behaviour for kids, and just rambling his campaign points. Moderator is all, that's not an answer, get to g in to the tape now.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


'You bragged that you have sexually assaulted women.' Anderson!
posted by box at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


He's answering a question quite well; too bad it isn't the question that was asked.
posted by Flashman at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary's campaign in a nutshell: asking the first town hall citizen "Are you an educator yourself?" to make a connection with her. I love that she expressed interest and didn't just go immediately into her answer.
posted by gladly at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


Damn, Anderson Cooper: "that was sexual assault" to Trump's "locker room banter"
posted by TwoStride at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [46 favorites]


C-SPAN streaming just crapped out for me and I can't get it back up. It's running on ~60 sec delay on the networks, so if you're in the same boat you won't miss anything if you're able to tune in now.
posted by phunniemee at 6:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bless you, Anderson Cooper.
posted by yasaman at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Trump trying REALLY hard to stay calm this time and he sucks at it because it's not his natural state. Let's see how quickly he gets bated and this devolves into a "BUT BILL CLINTON."
posted by windbox at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


Uh oh! What's that sound? Is it... something coming off some... rails?
posted by Rykey at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, short reaction-only comments to Chat please, drinking game/bingo card comments to chat; please give context for the folks who aren't watching, thank you.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Good for Anderson cooper, getting straight to the sexual assault question and keeping the conversation to the question.
posted by rmless at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I love you Anderson. Thanks for calling it sexual assault, which is exactly what it is.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


he didn't say that? - you liar - and if you didn't say it, why apologize?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


"Do you understand what you said was sexual assault?" "No, I didn't say...."
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Lol moderator is like, that wasn't the question...


!!!

Directly to sexual assault accusation. Trump deflects
posted by Tarumba at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow. "What I did isn't as bad as ISIS?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


He's also not at all addressing the people in the immediate audience. I hope this doesn't play well with them, Hilary is much better at eye contact.
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


That's not what I said. ISIS. ISIS. ISIS.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


Ooh, here goes the tape!
posted by Superplin at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


His makeup is less clownish today tho
posted by sweetmarie at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


HELL YEAH GET HIM ANDERSON COOPER

"Trump, do you understand that you were bragging about sexual assault?"
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Now that it's my turn here are a number of words in a row"
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Anderson Cooper going for the throat: "You bragged about comitting sexual assault. Do you understand that?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


If you take a drink every time he sniffs you will die.
posted by gamera at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


HOLY SHIT. FUCK YES. CALL HIM ON HIS ACTIONS.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]



So maybe he's just going to wimp out?

All the fuss and then nothing?
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump: "Police being shot is happening on a weekly basis"? Asshole.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


I'm glad he used his entire arsenal immediately… it's a marathon, not a sprint, and he's already losing it on the second question. ISIS, ISIS, ISIS.
posted by mhz at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I be never seen someone trying so hard to stay in control. Wow. He's going to explode.
posted by double bubble at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


LOCKER ROOM TALK.

GO GET HIM HILLDAWG!
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump is just off the rails when asked about the tape! Going on tangents about ISIS and his regular nonsense oh god oh god.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


I legit just teared up when Anderson Cooper said, "This is sexual assault you were talking about...do you understand this?"

Thank you.

Also, his answer was basically. "I'm not as bad as ISIS."
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Question to Trump from Cooper, straight to the video released. Trump denies it happened.

That's it, I'm tapping out.
posted by indubitable at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016


He apparently thinks speaking softly means sounding sane?
posted by futz at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: LOCKER ROOM TALK OKAY ALSO ISIS
posted by Tarumba at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just FYI, as a woman who has been in essentially this position, taking notes is how you keep yourself from leaping across the table and stabbing the jackass misogynist with your pen.
posted by susiswimmer at 6:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [120 favorites]


Trump says his whole concept was to make America great again. He watched horrible things like Obamacare happen and the bad Iran deal happen and when he looks at all these things when our country has so much potential and we have a huge trade deficit. He thinks we will have a great trade deal, bring back law and order, bring back respect to law enforcement. He wants to do things like fixing the inner cities for the African Americans.

Anderson Cooper came back and said that Trump bragged about sexual assault. Trump said it was locker room talk and this is like medieval times.
posted by winna at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Medieval Times? Oh shit, I felt bad for the Tic Tacs social media intern, but the poor Medieval Times intern is NOT EVEN FROM THIS CENTURY!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


he's going to knock the hell out of isis - he's going to grab them by ....
posted by pyramid termite at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wow he's on a shitload of benzos
posted by theodolite at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"You hear these things, they're said..."

Yes, by you!
posted by splen at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow. Cooper with a ferocious question calling out Trump's sexual assault. Trump lies and denies and tries to deflect.
posted by dazed_one at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Doubling down on 'locker room talk' and 'it's not as bad as ISIS'. WTF.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump is following the Pence playbook: "I never said that. You misunderstood."

He's talking about "carnage all over the world" and ISIS in response to a question about his "locker room talk."
posted by Superplin at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016


Cooper not letting up: "For the record, have you ever done those things?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


He's not going off the rails. He's trying to barrel through the question and shift the focus. Not going to work this time, though.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


DAMN IT I'M STILL IN THE OTHER THREAD CATCHING UP
posted by Capybara at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Nobody has more respect for women than I do." lololololol
posted by frumiousb at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can Cooper ask if Mr. Trump will make American women safe again...from him?
posted by rtha at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


COOPER: you grab women's genitals, that's sexual assault, do you understand that?

TRUMP: I never said that, I don' think you understand this is locker room talk. So many terrorist organizations around the world cutting off heads it's crazy around the world, Yes it's locker room talk and I hate it but I will knock the hell out of ISIS and. . .

COOPER: You're saying you didn't kiss women or grope women without their consent?

TRUMP" I have great respect for women. We're going to make america safe again

COOOPER: have you ever done that

TRUMP: No I haven't.
posted by petebest at 6:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


I'm glad that Trump is clearing the bar of not being as bad as drowning people in steel cages.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Cooper is really pressing him. Good.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016


This is where she puts her hand in her pocket, turns to the side, and smiles, right?
posted by zachlipton at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Anderson Cooper: "You bragged about sexually harassing women. Do you understand that?"
Trump: "It's locker room talk."

Hillary looks SO MAD.
He is done. Done, done, done.
posted by ourobouros at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


It's just one of those things?!?!?!?
posted by chris24 at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016


Ok, he's starting to unravel already. I bet he's not even going to keep it together for the first 20 minutes like he did in the first debate.
posted by joedan at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's her answer. She is killing it. Unfit to be CIC.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


"You hear these things said" ...no , we heard YOU say those things trump.
posted by rmless at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, man, he doesn't even have a good response to the tape question! So much for his "prep."
posted by Superplin at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I want to kiss Anderson Cooper, on the lips, because right now I'm a little bit in love with him.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


Wow, Clinton just implicitly said Trump isn't fit to be President.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


She's almost inviting him to attack Bill now.
posted by chris24 at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton is pulling no punches!
posted by ian1977 at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton going for the jugular: "He's not fit to serve."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


We are about five minutes in and he's already doing the word salad thing. It took him at least half an hour, maybe an hour, to get this off the rails at the last debate.
posted by insectosaurus at 6:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sexual assault...ISIS...borders...ISIS...wealth...ISIS...locker room...ISIS
posted by futz at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump: "No, I did not."

Clinton's new ad, 3 hours from now: "Oh yes you did!"
posted by Gelatin at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


What is with that sniffing? Seriously? What is that about?
posted by freya_lamb at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Represents exactly who he is.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016


"Do you understand your words were sexual assault?"

"I will defend us from ISIS and bring the jobs back"

At what point does the illusion just get ripped aside?
posted by Lykosidae at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's response to the "bragging about molesting women" was complete fail.

The only possible winning approach would have been to own up to what he said, then pivot to how "standards have changed, and so have I." (much like HRC did answering the email question last debate)

Instead, he went with word salad non-answering "it was locker room talk" BS.

Heh: "Thank you Mr. Trump. Thank you Mr. Trump. Secretary Clinton?"
posted by porpoise at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am so glad to have the opportunity to vote for Hillary Clinton for president.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [36 favorites]


Hillary Clinton said she never questioned a previous republican candidate's fitness to serve, but Donald Trump was different.
posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


The handheld mics are an odd choice. It's as though they're battle rapping. When will this Hamilton fanwank stop?
posted by stet at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Anderson asks Trump about his behavior on the tape. Trump says it's locker room talk and pivots to ISIS. Anderson presses, asking if he has ever done any of those things he said. Trump deflects (I have great respect for women!) and ultimately says no, briefly, when pressed, then launches into the MAGA spiel.

Hillary questions Trump's fitness to serve, and how this question persists across both party lines.
posted by mochapickle at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


oooh, donald's strutting around like a rooster who knows he's going to be decapitated ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did he just say something along the lines of "Nobody respects women as much as I do" ?
posted by Napoleonic Terrier at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016


Go for the jugular, Hillary.
posted by vverse23 at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016


GET IT, HILLZ!!!
posted by honeybee413 at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016


He can't wait to sniff again.
posted by vrakatar at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"What do I think about those things Donald Trump said, Anderson? I think I'm going to be the next President of the United States."
posted by Superplin at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is stunning. I'm watching this debate feeling bruised and triggered over what's come out and been discussed over the last few days. By addressing this as directly as AC just did, I feel... shielded, in a way?
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [67 favorites]


MODERATOR: You vowed to cover all the lands in a second darkness

SAURON: That was just locker room talk
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [152 favorites]


Trump is not interrupting...
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Still watching kittens and glancing at tweets, but the uppers vs downers question appears to be presenting itself again.
posted by holgate at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lennie Briscoe would punch Trump so hard that his children would suffer a concussion.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Clinton: "He has targeted women, people of colour, POWs and so many others. This is who Donald Trump is."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


HRC pivots back to go high: "I want to send a message to every boy and girl and indeed to the entire world that America already is great and we are great because we are good. And we will respect one another"
posted by zachlipton at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


COOPER: HRC do you want to respond

HRC: I've thought about this a lot in the last 48 hours, and Donald Trump is not fit to be president. What we all saw and heard on Friday was Donald taling about women, what he thinksa bout women, what he does to women, and he has said it's not who he is, but it's clear to anyone who heard it that it's exactly who he is. We've seen him insult women, rate women 1-10, spent nearly a week denigrating former Miss Universe in the harshest terms.

But it's not only this video that raises these questions about fitness, because he's also targeted AA, Latinos, people with disabilities . . . . our country must answer that this is not who we are. To go back to your question that we should send a message to all that we are great because we are good because we will respect one another, and we will celebrate our diversity. This is the America that I will serve if I'm so fortunate enough to be your president.
posted by petebest at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [77 favorites]


She broadens the question of fitness to serve by pointing out all the other groups that he has denigrated during the campaign.
posted by winna at 6:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


HE CAN'T FUCKING STOP HIMSELF. He just can't!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, he's not fit to serve, so good on her for actually saying it.
posted by corb at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


"It's just words, folks"

sigh. I don't know why that should disappoint me.
posted by INFJ at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Just words? What the fuck are those squiggly things on the backdrop behind you, you stupid fucker.
posted by klarck at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Twice now with "Latinos/Hispanics."
posted by mhz at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016


Dude just passed up his best opportunity to say "Yes, I made it up, I'm a blowhard constantly trying to impress people".
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's telling that it took Anderson Cooper prodding Trump repeatedly to get him to explicitly say no, he never sexually assaulted anyone. It's weird that the first words out of his mouth when asked that question weren't, "No, I never did and never would do that."
posted by Sangermaine at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Way to bring it back around to the question Hillary.
posted by Flashman at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"We are great because we are good." Holy shit balls, that's what we need to hear from a CIC.
posted by Drumhellz at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Clinton: This is who Donald Trump is. This is not who we are.

Also repeating America is great because we are good..

More than words. But good words.
posted by Gelatin at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


They are treating trump like a naughty child. Love it!
posted by ian1977 at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump is complaining about not getting enough rope to hang himself with?
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


just words? - where's your record of public service - and where's your defense?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's mocking Raddatz for interrupting him.
posted by medusa at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016


When does the video surface of him doing the things he just said he didn't do?
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm listening to WFMU while reading this (because I can't watch). Danny Fields is being interviewed and is programming songs. He pretty much dedicated Joan Baez singing Hard Rain to the debate. Powerful.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


No - no response! What the f*ck? This is a town hall not a debate?!
posted by freya_lamb at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dammit Hillary that was good. I can exhale now.
posted by kanewai at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


DT says "it's just words, folks"

Words matter!
posted by chaoticgood at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's just words? That's his excuse? Just tripped over Latinos/Hispanics
posted by peppermind at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016


Good on the moderators for staying on point and not letting Donnie ramble on and on offtopic.

Hope this keeps up until the bitter end.
posted by porpoise at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have seen some people (mainly men) do a big sniff when they were feeling smug or trying to look confident. I was wondering if that's what Trump was doing last time.

Or he could just be bad at breathing.
posted by zennie at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is there somewhere to place a bet that Trump's "it's just words" will be in the next Clinton ad?
posted by mhum at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton made a VERY good inclusive move to pivot the outrage about his statements to remind people that his statements about hispanics and muslims are just as bad.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


at age 59 - bloody hell
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The pivot to Bill. It begins.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


There he goes, bringing up Bill Clinton. Let's see how this goes.
posted by honeybee413 at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


And there goes the Bill attack.
posted by chris24 at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh, here comes the Bill Clinton crap.

This is happening. This is really, actually happening.
posted by Justinian at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


What are the chances Trump flees the stage part way through?
posted by figurant at 6:17 PM on October 9, 2016


Well, here we are. Bringing out Bill, and Hillary's response.
posted by mollweide at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


PLEASE PROCEED MR TRUMP
posted by Talez at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"It's just locker room talk."

It's not appropriate in the locker room, either, Don.
posted by cooker girl at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


He attacked Bill. Here we go.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The moderators are hammering on the video and I'm actually pleasantly surprised.
posted by winna at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


Everyone gave Donnie shit for being coked up at the last debate so he overcorrects with quaaludes?
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump's sniffing is getting worse.

He complains about not being allowed to respond when Raddatz interrupted his filibuster.
posted by Gelatin at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Both moderators are on target. Most excellent.
posted by dazed_one at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's telling that it took Anderson Cooper prodding Trump repeatedly to get him to explicitly say no, he never sexually assaulted anyone. It's weird that the first words out of his mouth when asked that question weren't, "No, I never did and never would do that."

Sure, Donald, but there are a lot of people who know now how much you'd like to.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


Here it is, the Bill gambit.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


HE went Shelton.
posted by vrakatar at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


I seriously think he's on coke.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's given another golden opportunity to say he's changed and HE DIDN'T TAKE IT!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why doesn't he answer the question as it was framed rather than going for this nonsense?
posted by tetsuo at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump not sitting down. Looks odd.
posted by dhens at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


Hillary has an amazing poker face.
posted by Blue Meanie at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's a sniffle-apotamus tonight.
posted by ian1977 at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The moderators are hammering him on the video. I am so pleasantly surprised.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Not a muscle moving in her face out of turn as he tears into this bullshit
posted by Countess Elena at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


so, donnie, are you going to make this country a locker room - god, here we go with the bill clinton accusations

you scumbag - you will never be my president and i say that as someone who's no fan of bill
posted by pyramid termite at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here we fucking go. I'm so disgusted. He's going on and fucking on about Bill Clinton.
posted by yasaman at 6:18 PM on October 9, 2016


He doesn't have an original thought in his head. His monotone talking points are bizarro. "The" African Americans, "The" Latinos. He's hitting his talking points without using them in any reasonable context.

He is tanking badly and we have a long way to go.

Oh god, he went there
posted by futz at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He sounds super wheezy- netipot, dude
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is Trump's insisting the tape is "locker room talk" convincing to anyone?
posted by Gelatin at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


lol this guy is literally a malfunctioning robot on a Disneyworld ride.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Here come all of his cards, twenty minutes in.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there something wrong with the way they're holding/handling/pointing the mic that it's picking up his sniffing? Why don't they just use the standard lapel mics and not touch them?
posted by The arrows are too fast at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


He can't even coherently articulate his cheap attacks.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's got it in her pocket. Look at her.
posted by valkane at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I have watched probably a dozen or more Trump rallies and he has not sniffled once. This is weird.

Trump asked whether he is the same person he was 11 years ago, and instead launching into Bill's accusers.
posted by mochapickle at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


TRUMP: Rebuttal. Just words folks, just words. I've heard a lot of words. HRC said she' bring jobs back to NY and she failed. I am going to help the AA and the Latinos and get them help, she's not going to brig jobs

MR: Mr Trump I want to get to the next question. "Jeff from Ohio" Trump says the campaign has changed him, when did that happen. When you walked off that bus at age 59 what changed you.

TRUMP: IT was locker room talk, I'm not proud of it, but if you look at Bill Clinton, but if you look at his abuses to women, he's the worst i the history of politics, and some of the people are here tonight, Kathy Shelton was raped, and she's here otnight. So don't tell me about words, Bill Clinton was impeached, he had to pay 850k to Paula Jones who is also here tonight. HRC will bring up words that I said 11 years ago she should be ashamed of herself.
posted by petebest at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


The Kathy Shelton stuff is so, so gross.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]



This is happening. This is really, actually happening.

Probably shouldn't be hearing Idioteque in my head when reading this.
posted by asteria at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


An APPLAUSE after the Bill Clinton attacks. Jesus fucking H Christ.
posted by windbox at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Woah, fly attack!
posted by tetsuo at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here we go with her laughter on her part!
posted by SillyShepherd at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


she's not ashamed of herself = she's ashamed of YOU, donnie
posted by pyramid termite at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


She was ready for the attack.
posted by vrakatar at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


Once again the crowd needs to learn to stay silent, for both sides.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"My friend, Michelle Obama is like WHATEVER."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


If he was on coke, wouldn't he have more energy? He seems beaten down, not that he doesn't deserve to be
posted by rmless at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump tripling down on "it's just words" can't be helping him, not in any sane world (I know, I know); he is The inveterate blowhard.
posted by porpoise at 6:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump repeating everything he already said about Bill. Hillary calmly chilling.
posted by Tarumba at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016


She quotes Michelle Obama: "When they go low, you go high".
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Oh my god he claimed Hillary Clinton laughed at Kathy Shelton when Clinton was the public defender for the rapist.

The audience applauded, which is disgusting.
posted by winna at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


OMG, there's applause after that shitshow of a response? He drags in Bill Clinton and says Hillary should be ashamed of herself, and gets APPLAUSE?
posted by Superplin at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's unraveling on the inside. Let it all out Don.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016


That's how you plagiarize Michelle Obama, Dingus!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Somehow, I don't think there will be happy shimmying tonight. Dancing on his grave quite likely though.
posted by peppermind at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


And the crowd goes wild. Hillary has him by the nuts.
posted by humanfont at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


So Trump gets to bring in Kathy Shelton and Paula Jones to the audience. Nice - he decided to go all in.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016


A fly just landed on Clinton's face while she was in the middle of talking and she didn't even blink! She's not even slightly rattled by Trump's low blow. She's got this. Also, wtf?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I saw that too. Where's the official Debate 2016 fly-swatter?
posted by Autumnheart at 6:20 PM on October 9, 2016


Facts for the Hilary rape defense case if anyone is interested. TLDR: He's wrong. She should flag this.
posted by freya_lamb at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


Yeah he must be exhausted. Been a rough few days.
posted by vrakatar at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016


An APPLAUSE after the Bill Clinton attacks.

A big one. With hoots. For calling Clinton a hypocrite for promising to support women, specifically.

But she got a followup hoot for promising to take a higher road, though, so I guess that balances out?

She's definitely getting down and dirty and personal. I didn't expect that. She doesn't need to.
posted by rokusan at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Okay, much more applause for, "When they go low, you [sic] go high." Whew.

"But he never apologizes for anything." Time to address the Khans and his other insults. Good.
posted by Superplin at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like that her riposte there expressly called him on not answering the question, but instead choosing an unrelated attack.
posted by Archelaus at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm pretty sure the sniffing is him being out of breath... just standing there... talk about stamina.
posted by Somn at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't like this at all. PUT HIM DOWN. Don't just relitigate.
posted by Talez at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


HRC: He gets to say whatever he wants, to run his campaign on what he chooses. He can talk about the things that we want to talk about, instead of the important problems of the American people, I can say like Michelle Obama, "when they go low we go high". That's only one tape, but we can interpolate that there are more.

But he never apologies, the Kahns . . their son died, he never apologized. . . Judge Curiel, never apologies, . . reporter he mocked . . never apologies . . never apologized for the birther stuff. He needs to take responsibilty for his actions and his voice.
posted by petebest at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Clinton: "He never apologized for..." litany of all his shit. GO HILLARY
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Audience CHEERED for "they go low, we go high." CHEERED. Fuck some applause, y'all.
posted by palomar at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm sorry; I can't deal with this any more. His rhetoric, his constant sniffing, on and on. I'll just stay in here with you fine folks where I feel safe. Thanks to all of you for being here.
posted by Silverstone at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary is like sure Trump whatever, let's move on to all the other 5 million things you said

So much for the crazy super duper weapon of bringing up Bill's affair
posted by Tarumba at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is all so bizarre, how is this even comprehensible to "undecided" voters, and why are they cheeering if they're "undecided"?
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump still nailing that Sidney Blumenthal demographic. This is a bold strategy.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


No YOU owe the president an apology. I'm rubber and you're glue....
posted by rmless at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm so glad Clinton is pointing out that Trump hasn't apologized to the Khans, Judge Curiel, the disabled reporter, and for being the #1 Obama birther.
posted by joedan at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh here we go with Sidney Blumenthal again.
posted by workerant at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's smart of Clinton to emphasize that Trump should be responsible for his own behavior, emphasizing that Bill's actions aren't hers.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Thanks for reminding me you started the Birther thing, Donald!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016


he is unhinged
posted by ian1977 at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


A fly just landed on Clinton's face while she was in the middle of talking and she didn't even blink!

Cue the Hillary-is-a-robot commercials.
posted by rokusan at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016


She quotes Michelle Obama: "When they go low, you go high".

Immediately said this and also got an applause break. Clearly both camps have stock the audience with well-briefed folks.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016


He just called her a devil.
posted by chris24 at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Holy shit he's going full Breitbart.
posted by Talez at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Is she just going to leave his dessicated husk on the stage at the end of night?
posted by rdr at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


what donnie? what was all that about sidney? that didn't even make sense - what was wrong with those commercials? - oh, you're just flailing, you idiot
posted by pyramid termite at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016


Wait, Trump is going to attack Michelle Obama for attacking Hillary? What is this even ...???
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ah, yes, the Bernie-or-Busters will save you now, Donald.

Aaaaaaaaand… emails.
posted by mhz at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did he just call her the devil?
posted by Torosaurus at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Clinton talks about all the actions for which Trump has ever apologized for all the things he has done.

Trump says that she should apologize for Sidney Blumenthal because of course dropping his name in again isn't creepy cryptoracism.
posted by winna at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This guy is deranged
posted by ramix at 6:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump, don't re-litigate the primaries please.
posted by neonrev at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Trump just called Hillary the devil. Then he said something about acid-washed emails.
posted by box at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't tell if Trump is looking out into the crowd or purposely looking into the camera and it is freaking me out. Especially since he's maintaining the calmer baritone, the calm before the 'cold fury' storm.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


I think only the people asking questions are undecided.
posted by double bubble at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


I'm not so sure Clinton was "going high" after she quoted Michelle Obama. I hope after Trump stops blathering she moves on from all this nonsense.
posted by zennie at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Emails again. Yawn.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


This town hall format is fascinating. Real citizens get to sit there and watch the debate? Quite a game changer.
posted by uosuaq at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


She did it. She finally BROKE HIM.
posted by Drumhellz at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


He called her the devil. Wow, fuck him right in the face.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


hahaha she can't keep a straight face of his threats of special prosecution.
posted by ian1977 at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump fully unhinged saying that HRC is the one who needs to apologize to the Obamas and everything else.

HRC is igonring the insults about Bill, which means it's unfortunate that she hasn't gone for the "he's not the one running for president!" moment.
posted by TwoStride at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


One of the things I've been surprised does not get brought up in relation to Trump's attack against the Khans: not only were the things he offered up as his own comparable "sacrifices" absurd, paying for buildings to be built, but other people died, other people's children, construction workers, in the course of his "sacrifices". But he claims them as his own.
posted by XMLicious at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary has yet to directly address Trump. He's unable to do anything but attack her directly.
posted by mhz at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He just called her a devil.

The Devil, actually. I guess it's more respectful that way?
posted by rokusan at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"I'm going to instruct my attorney general..." ...what.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


There are boxes of emails?
posted by valkane at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't even understand what's going on right now. He's saying he's going to prosecute her if he's president. What the fuck.
posted by yasaman at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump says he wasn't going to say it but he will: "If I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies and deception. Never been anything like it. We are going to have a special prosecutor."
posted by zachlipton at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary Clinton must be shaking in her boots about a special prosecutor.
posted by Justinian at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


What the fuck is going on? Bernie Sanders?
posted by lkc at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


lololololololol omg you guys this is beautiful. this is so beautiful.

her face is glorious.
posted by palomar at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Big old smile and chuckle at his threat
posted by Countess Elena at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's going full gish gallop! HE JUST THREATENED HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT ON LIVE TV FOR A POLITICAL PROSECUTION.
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [49 favorites]


He's babbling about superdelegates and Debbie Wasserman Schultz?!
posted by Gelatin at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


She is just straight up cracking up when he threatens her with a special prosecutor. Beautiful.
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


He is tanking badly and we have a long way to go.

Never overestimate a vast number of your fellow Americans.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I hate to say it, but if I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation."
posted by medusa at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: I'll be a dictator
posted by Tarumba at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]



This is all so bizarre, how is this even comprehensible to "undecided" voters, and why are they cheeering if they're "undecided"?

Trump has 10 people with him so guessing the applause came from there.
posted by asteria at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry for all caps, but:
WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? A LONG UNHINGED RANT? WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT?
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's now saying that she should apologize for acid washing emails.
posted by winna at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is literally the strongest woman I have ever seen.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [78 favorites]


He's so bad here. He's just babbling.
posted by octothorpe at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


He just said he's going to use the power of the presidency to punish his opponent. HE"S DONE.
posted by chris24 at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


TRUMP: Sidney Blumenthal, . . your campaign apology . . you did that. Michelle Obama tv advertisments, you should see the commercials from 2008 and those are terrible commercials to you. All you have to do is look at Wikileaks to see what you said about Bernie Sanders and Debbie Wasserman Schultz, but you shjould so apologize for the 30000 emails.

If I win, I'm going to instruct my AG to get a special prosecutre to look into this email situation. We're going to have a special prosecuter. People are furious, there's never been anything like the emails . . . *gettig a little faster, louder, higher*
posted by petebest at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He is more than unhinged. I have never in my life been so convinced that someone is the subject of demon possession. And you know what? Pence is worse.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


and if you win, you idiot, obamas going to pardon her long before you call that atty general
posted by pyramid termite at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He just lost his mind.
posted by mikelieman at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump has just claimed he's going to engage in punative prosecutions against Clinton if he wins!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


HE JUST FUCKING THREATENED HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT ON LIVE TV FOR A POLITICAL PROSECUTION.
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [87 favorites]


WTF? Special prosecutor?
posted by vrakatar at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, I guess the chill Donald is over now.
posted by klarck at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016


Hillary channeling Kate McKinnon with that smile. This is going so well.
posted by humanfont at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Acid washing is not on my bingo card.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


He sounds like he had a 13 year old r/the_donald top commenter as a prep for the debate
posted by futz at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


WHY DO I WANT ACID WASH JEANS
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's his greatest rally hit.
posted by valkane at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


(threatening Hillary with special prosecution)
posted by Tarumba at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Getting out the bottle of Balvenie 15

FREE THE BALVENIE 15
posted by murphy slaw at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Now he's accusing her of not losing the primary election with Bernie Sanders "fair and square," dragging in Wikileaks and Debra Wasserman Schulz.


Oh, and here are the emails.
Ugh.

"I didn't think I was going to say this, and I hate to say it, but I'm going to instruct my Attorney General to get a special prosecutor" to go out after the emails.
posted by Superplin at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Never apologize for acid-washing.
posted by roger ackroyd at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016


acid washed? He's used this expression multiple times. What the hell? "acid washed emails"
posted by frumiousb at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016


lol this guy is literally a malfunctioning robot on a Disneyworld ride.

"These violent delights have violent ends"
posted by bibliowench at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump calls for a special prosecutor against Hillary -- how many have already been used against the Clintons?
posted by gingerbeer at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think this guy can last a whole 90 minutes. He's unloading everything he was coached to say in the first half hour and Hillary's literally laughing at it.
posted by at by at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Deranged conspiracy ramble babbling, twenty-four minutes in.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Wow..we're witnessing a low-water mark in our history here folks.
posted by tetsuo at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


I really want to know what percentage of casual voters know who Blumenthal is.
posted by drezdn at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know it's inappropriate to comment on HRC's appearance, but I was watching her response to Donald's rambling and noticed something.

She made a joke earlier in the campaign that she has been dying her hair for years; it's a great job - but the thing that really yells all-round competency is that she has the faintest sideburn/temple grey hinting at the "mature look" when it occurs in men.

--

Oh, boo. Fucking emails and "acid washed" again, again?

Love that HRC is laughing... laughing!

Yeah, Don should know about subpoena's.
posted by porpoise at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is all so bizarre, how is this even comprehensible to "undecided" voters, and why are they cheeering if they're "undecided"?
posted by blue suede stockings at 9:21 PM on 10/9

I think there's some truth to this, there millions of people just now really tuning into the election, believe it or not. If they're watching this for any clue as to the issues...there isn't any
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Called her the devil, brought up the emails again, throwing out bill, talking about nebulous "boxes taken from an office" and telling the American people his first action as president would be to have an inquest against his political opponent. Wow.
posted by Room 101 at 6:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"SHE SHOULD BE IN JAIL"

oh. my god.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Bill, emails, Bernie, Sidney Blumenthal, Wikileaks--I think I just hit Trump bingo.
posted by joedan at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I feel like I want to acid wash everything I own.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is what I feared- bringing this up first would totally overshadow the actual questions we need to have answered. I want to hear real questions!!!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Body language is really interesting just now. We got a full shot of Trump standing and pointing his finger at a seated Hillary. I wonder if that was a calculated move on her part, because it makes Trump look threatening.
posted by INFJ at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Note Bene: He is calling her Hillary (aggressively) not Secretary Clinton.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump: "Because you'd be in jail"

Another applause, un-fucking-real.
posted by windbox at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


donald is starting to lose the quiet voice.

Did he pay these people to cheer? WTF?
posted by futz at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's overt threat to appoint a special prosecutor against his political opponent can't play well with what remains of the political press' sense of propriety.
posted by Gelatin at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay, someone just tell me if he cusses, 'cause I got fifty riding on it and I can't listen to the fucker.
posted by Mooski at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


'Cuz you'd be in jail.'

Watch it Donnie.
posted by ian1977 at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016


They should clear the room of the audience this is a disgrace.
posted by winna at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


The audience applause about Clinton being in jail makes me physically ill.
posted by Superplin at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


A CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES JUST THREATENED HIS OPPONENT WITH A POLITICAL PROSECUTION! HOW THE FUCK IS THAT POSSIBLE?
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [87 favorites]


I'm tired of hearing about your damn emails! /Bernie
posted by leotrotsky at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He is not even coherent. I really want to help with transcript, but damn, I couldn't follow it well enough to condense it. We're now on emails again. Trump swears to prosecute Hillary for email bleaching when he's elected.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You'd be in jail". WTF??
posted by rdr at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016


I thought these people were undecided. Where's the cheering coming from?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


So to be clear, the moderators just admonished the audience for wasting time by cheering, then they waste all our time by asking the same damn email question that's been asked and answered over and over again?
posted by zachlipton at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He is repeating crazy Trump supporter fan fiction right now.
posted by armacy at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did anybody else hear what he just muttered under his breath that got the audience to whoop like a high school cafeteria after the bully drops their lunch tray?
posted by ourobouros at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This email segment isn't going too well for her. Accurate or not, it's bad optics.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


This audience is shit.
posted by asteria at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


WHY DO I WANT ACID WASH JEANS

Because he's a Master Persuader, I guess?

I mean, I'm starting to crave really bad steaks and ugly ties, myself.
posted by rokusan at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump's impatient pacing every time Clinton speaks is really unnerving. He looks like he's about to hit somebody.
posted by joedan at 6:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


moderators are quite rubbish
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


god, he just can't stand still and listen without acting like he wants to jump in and shut her up
posted by pyramid termite at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016


If this was the final test, Pence is gonna quit.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The criminalization of political disagreement.
posted by homunculus at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


HRC: *jumping to rebut* Everything he said is a lie, go to hillaryclinton dt com to see the fact checking because it's awfully good that someone with the temprament is not in charge of the laws of this country

Trump: You'd be in jail

MR: You said you were careless 8 -10 emails were top secret and that that they could been compromised.

HRC: First it was a mistake, I would not do it again, but I think it's important to point out there are some misleading accucations from others, after a year investigation there's no evidence of a hack, and there's no evidence that anyone can point to at all that ANY classified materials ended up in the wron ghands. I take that serious, when I was in the Senate, when I was SoS, liek when we went after bin Laden, I take it serious and there's no information was compromised.
posted by petebest at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can't believe he's getting so much applause. .
posted by Room 641-A at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I feel like I'm having a stroke
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


"Obviously as Secretary of State, whereas the game show host over here...."
posted by valkane at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016


3 or 3 or 3 or 4 or 5
posted by ian1977 at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


She can take it, they have ammo for after the debate. and he makes no sense when he speaks.
posted by vrakatar at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016


Wow..we're witnessing a low-water mark in our history here folks.

It's still early. It could get worse.
posted by octothorpe at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


She looks really, really angry.

Talk less, Secretary Clinton. Smile more.
posted by rokusan at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yoga class? What?
posted by rtha at 6:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I so wish Hillary had been able to debate someone capable of leading. Instead she has to deal with this deranged toddler in suit.
posted by mochapickle at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's repeating all the Breitbart talking points. Fascinating. This is the stuff I saw in the last few months from the crazyweb.
posted by frumiousb at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's just babbling conspiracy theories...
posted by leotrotsky at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The whole audience is not undecided, just the question-askers.
posted by dhens at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump doesn't seem to understand that people watching this debate who are swayable don't understand his weird sideways references to all these made-up scandals. It's like watching a nerd talk and make a ton of sci-fi allusions that no one gets.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Was the audience bussed in from Maury?
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Jesus Christ. Ask a fucking question. Put this back on topic.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's lost his mind. That's really the only answer I have for this craziness.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's not bad optics. She is taking responsibility for something. Something he can't do.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


'Cuz you have nothing to say'
posted by ian1977 at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016


Anderson Cooper cracking the whip tonight!
posted by sweetmarie at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The criminalization of political disagreement.

it's called fascism, I believe
posted by philip-random at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


How is he allowed to hold the floor like this?
posted by freya_lamb at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump just added 6,000 emails.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's upped it to thirty-nine thousand emails!
posted by winna at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This just got my anarchist husband who is gung ho about never voting to ask if he can still register to vote.
posted by corb at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [139 favorites]


The moderators need to shut this shit down.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Congress and the FBI didn't find any evidence of wrongdoing, but Trump's sure he can do one better!
posted by Archelaus at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Folks as ever -- short contextless reaction to Chat
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"I'd like to know, Anderson, why aren't you bringing up the emails?"

My God. He's a child.
posted by mhz at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


One on three. Everyone is against me.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


He's attacking Anderson Cooper!
posted by Sophie1 at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


he is gonna walk off
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump: 33k emails deleted. and after a subpoena, I'm so disappointed in Congress, including Republicans, when her husband goes on a plan and talks to the AG days before her case was decided, you deleted the emails and you deleted the emails.

Back and forth between HRC, Trump interrupting, HRC: I know your'e into big diversion tonight, but let's get to the questions tonight.

Trump: I'd like to know why you haven't brought out emais

COOPER: we did.

Trump no you didn't
posted by petebest at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


let her talk! - you're really acting like an asshole - to the moderators, even!
posted by pyramid termite at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is it... a temper tantrum? What just happened
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I fear that people of a certain type will lap up his interruptions and ranting.
posted by dazed_one at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Waah the mean people are picking on me!
posted by Blue Meanie at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is a petulant 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum. Jesus Christ.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Donnie just called the format a one on three, he's freaking out.
posted by vrakatar at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh my lord her pause and then glorious attack when she clearly just had it with him.
posted by winna at 6:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's fighting with the moderators!
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yoga class? What?

Hillary's camp said that some of the emails were yoga related
posted by futz at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Nice, it's one on three" - Donald J. Whiner
posted by Room 101 at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


The moderators have no control over this debate at all.

Since Trump mentions talking to an attorney general, I hope she points out his attempted bribe of Florida's attorney general.
posted by Gelatin at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I'm a gentleman Hillary go ahead!"

WHAT?!?
posted by Talez at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


When it's not someone's turn to talk, their microphone should be turned off.
posted by Fuzzypumper at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


"one on three" Did he actually say that? Seriously. He's only playing to his base.
posted by frumiousb at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016


you are the farthest thing from a gentleman.
posted by INFJ at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


he's a gentleman - he always wears gloves when he's grabbing ....
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


A clearly republican plant is telling lies about Obamacare as being terrible for everyone.
posted by winna at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh my god I just slapped myself with schadenfreude

Trump looks deranged and violent, he's losing his shit
posted by Tarumba at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is skulking behind Hillary while she answers the question- dude, sit down, you look so creepy.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


This is jerry Springer. It's terrible. Clinton is doing as well as can be expected, trump is physically looming behind her in a way that is making me nervous.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"No, I'm a gentleman. Hillary, go ahead."
[audience laughs]
posted by at by at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


This looks bad for everyone involved
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016


motherfucker ain't navigating this so nimbly
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


The implied threat of male violence manifest in the way he's walking around is goddamn sickening.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [96 favorites]


Watching them move around on stage is really interesting. She looks like a sane, intelligent, capable person. He has the body language of a mobster.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


I can't even type here what I think so far. This is insane. I'm going to catch up with this afterward. I've never seen this kind of train wreck. I need to calm down.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


He's pacing and not sitting down when she's talking. I'm actually a little worried that he may make some sort of physical contact with her.
posted by explosion at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He looks like he's stalking her on the stage. Gross.

I actually think he may walk off the stage at some point.
posted by futz at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton explicitly spelling out all the best parts of Obamacare that everyone likes. Smart strategy.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [55 favorites]


Maybe now that actual policy is on the table he can suck in his usual way, not terrifying and threatening
posted by Countess Elena at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton is defending the ACA and going over what is good about it.
posted by medusa at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


hillary's giving a good and cogent defense of health care
posted by pyramid termite at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


She is going right back into policy like that shitshow never happened.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump is setting up his fans to claim that he's being treated unfairly by the moderators.

For a "strong man" he sure likes playing the victim, huh?
posted by Superplin at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


He is looming behind her while she answers the ACA question. He is such a fucking bully.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's looming behind her. Looking like Lurch on the Addams Family.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


ACA question is asked, and he started with the looming. LOOMING.

She crossed to his side of the stage, and he went straight to the looming.
posted by mrgoat at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


He looks actually dangerous and like he might hit her
posted by rmless at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Clinton has been practicing for presidential debates since high school and instead she has to go through this.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [76 favorites]


Clinton is reminding everyone there is a lot of good in the ACA.
posted by winna at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


How is obamacare a disaster??
posted by ian1977 at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016


He's a menace up there--I'm having anxiety from his free-floating physical presence as if he were a belligerent drunk muttering dares to himself under his breath.
posted by Taft at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh God, he's looming. That'll play well.
posted by peppermind at 6:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


What the FUCK is going on with the crowd? Did the university allow (clearly partisan) undergrads in to "observe" in the cheap seats as part of the package deal for hosting? This is a clusterfuck. He's playing to the crowd like it's a roman circus.
posted by blue suede stockings at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


My new hope for this debate: He gets too close to her and the Secret Service tackles him.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Donald just called his wall "the fence." (Unless he said "defense"?)
posted by mochapickle at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016


For a "strong man" he sure likes playing the victim, huh?

Isn't that the classic bully? Happy to swagger around intimidating others until the second they face any resistance.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


i held my breath the entire time she stood near him. i was so nervous he was going to lunge at her.
posted by double bubble at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This isn't even Jerry Springer, it's Morton Downey Jr.
posted by Flashman at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


the townhell debate
posted by OverlappingElvis at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is incoherent. "it's very bad, very bad health insurance."

"We have to get rid of the lines around the states, artificial lines."
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


People, people, people! When Trump referred to "one on three" he wasn't referring to them ganging up, he was referring to what the betting odds of Clinton becoming president blew out to!
posted by Talez at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Meanwhile, on the loony left, I have friends arguing against Clinton and liveblogging links which show their opinion that Trump is working for Clinton.
posted by frumiousb at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016


Attacking moderators, going buck wild with weird interruptions, wandering around muttering...

I can't imagine any of this is working with anyone.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


(petebest, thank you for the transcript for those of us who can't bear to watch!)
posted by ferret branca at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Much less expensive, works, get rid of artificial lines, Don?

Single payer.
posted by porpoise at 6:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ouch. For the first half hour, I thought Trump was actually doing... well, no worse than in the first debate. Maybe better. Lots of rambling, but he actually got some attacks in, stuck to his talking points on the 2005 video, and had Clinton on the defensive for a while. Probably nothing that would convince an undecided voter, but good enough to hang onto his supporters.

But then before the 30-minute mark, he starts talking over Clinton, sniping at the moderator, and trying to deny an audience member their chance to ask a question. Yeah, I think he's going to increasingly implode as the night goes on, just like last time.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please tell me about the details Donald.

Oh, more about the 'lines' again? Didn't Rubio already paste you on this?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016


Checking my privilege: When they start talking about health care, I get to go pee.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


How is obamacare a disaster??

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the framing but the issue is that the pool of insured people is sicker and more costly than anticipated, which means costs to the insurers are much higher than anticipated, which means the insurers either drop out or must raise rates by huge margins. And a vicious circle ensues where healthy people drop out, the risk pool gets even sicker, and rates go up even more.
posted by Justinian at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump: "We have to repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that works".

No plans though.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump looming behind Clinton is making me nervous.
posted by toomanycurls at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's not wearing his wedding band. Does he normally not?
posted by Windigo at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I feel really sorry for his snot. Just when it thinks it's gotten away he sniffs it back in.
posted by firstdrop at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


"It's very bad, very bad health insurance." - Trump on ACA.

It's not insurance, it's a marketplace. He then says that insurance companies shouldn't compete, and that Canadians come to the US for medical care. He's talking in circles.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's like the drunk guy sitting at the back of the bus talking to himself. So creepy.
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


@KevinMKruse
The only way Trump could get more women to vote for Hillary Clinton at this point would be if he drove them to the polls himself.
posted by chris24 at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


How is obamacare a disaster??

The same way that a single payer system would be a disaster.
posted by INFJ at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016


No, Donald, most Canadians don't go to the US for major medical procedures.

P.S.: Leave us out of this, Donald.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [79 favorites]


He mentioned that Canadians are coming over to the US for big medical expenses. My Canadian husband is laughing his ass off.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Does Obamacare cover the sniffling sounds that keep coming out of his head?
posted by zachlipton at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


WHY IS TRUMP SHITTING ON SINGLE PAYER? TRUMP SAID HE'D GO TO SINGLE PAYER! HE SAID THE GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR EVERYTHING!
posted by Talez at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Woah, let's not drag Canada into this healthcare debate please, Trump. As a Canadian, I love our healthcare system.
posted by dazed_one at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's playing to the crowd like it's a roman circus.

it is a roman circus - wait till donnie gets his horse ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I know he said "unless you hit by a truck," but I swear I heard "hit by a Trump."
posted by donatella at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dear U S of A
You know I love you to bits
Please don't fuck this up.

Also: we played the "womanizer billionaire with the funny hair" card 20 years ago, in Italy. We've been there. Didn't work out, guys. Like, at all.
posted by _dario at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [51 favorites]


Based upon the current tenor of the debate, that Trump won't get more of a grip as the debate continues (he never does once he loses it), and that there will be more fallout tomorrow as more GOP members leave him, I don't see the final debate happening. He's already laid the groundwork for "the moderators are against me" so I'll think he won't attend. Anyone agree?
posted by bluecore at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The camera angle looks like Trump is sneaking up on her continually.
posted by Talez at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The 538 live blog indicates that senior GOP leadership wanted to see him contrite. Donald gave them the middle finger with this first half hour. He's unhinged, going with every attack line he's got.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're drinking for every sniff you'd be on the floor now I do love how Hil tries to bring discussion back to policy, and FACTS
posted by jazon at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


lol Anderson don't try to stump Clinton on health care she has been invested in this since before you were old enough to use scissors.
posted by winna at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


He doesn't normally wear a ring, no.

(They don't make rings that small, etc.)
posted by mochapickle at 6:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump's not wearing his wedding band. Does he normally not?
Couldn't find one small enough.
posted by jferg at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Does he realise he's just strengthened her support among the left? The biggest berniebro talking point against her is that she's secretly against single payer.
posted by frumiousb at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Trump's hovering over Clinton is scaring the hell out of me, too. Gah.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's using Bernie Sanders again. For who?????? Seriously??
posted by mhz at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


No, Donald, most Canadians don't go to the US for major medical procedures.

I was wondering about that, thanks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


You're gonna have plans that are SO GOOD!
posted by ian1977 at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


YOU DID NOT JUST INVOKE BERNIE
posted by INFJ at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Potomac Avenue, I am watching this in a theater pub with about 500 people in freaking Alaska and there are exactly 2 dudes in the audience for whom this is working.
posted by charmedimsure at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


Question is about Obamacare

HRC: Donald wants to repeal it, but I'm going to fix it in a serios of actions I've laid out to drive those costs down. When we talk about reigning in the costs, it wassn't just that 20M people got insurance when they didn't have it before, but everyone esle 170M of us who get insurance from our employesrs; no pre existing condition, no lifetime limits; women don't ahve to pay more, if you're under 26 you can be on your parents policy. I want to say what's good and what works, but we have to get costs down so they can afford to provide health insurance. But if we repeal it as Donald proposes we'd have to start all over again and lose all of those things.

TRUMP: It is what a great question I get this question alot. Obamacare is a disaster. It's going up like nobody's ever seen, it's only getting worse. Their method of fixing it is to ask for more money. Obamacare will enver work, it's very bad health insurance. IT's too expensive for people and for our country. We have to repeal it and replace it with someothing less expensive and something that works. We have to get rid of the lines around the states. Insurance companies want that because it gives monopolies. She wants to go a single-payer plan like Canada, if you notice Canadians come to the US because their system is so slow it's catastrophic in certain ways. HRC has been after this for years, Obama care is a total disaster. Your rates and deductibiles have go up.

COOPER:

HRC: We have an employer based system, and the ACA was put together to help people cant afford it, and then people who were working but didn't ahve them money for insurance. That was the approache ACA took. Now we've got $20M ppl with health insurance, but if we do what Donald wants it just gives it back to the insurance companies. So let's fix what's broken but not throw it away.

TRUMP: Sanders has said she's really not good that.

COOPER: You want to have companies to . ..
posted by petebest at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Did he just check out her notes (while pacing around the stage)?
posted by druss at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


My 13 year old just said th a trump looked like a Weeping Angel that was sneaking up on Hillary so he could grope her.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [88 favorites]


@JeffreyGoldberg
The headline so far: Donald Trump threatens to throw his political rival in jail if he wins. This is what happens in dictatorships.
posted by chris24 at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [70 favorites]


Apparently the invisible hand does surgery now.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Anderson pressing for details from Trump on healthcare. Trump is going to feel threatened.
posted by klarck at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh, fuck, she is Iron Woman. (At his treatment.

But please understand how his ramblings are exactly what millions of people have been hearing for 25 years on whacko radio/TV.

Now she's making good points on ACA. But again Trumpkins who dont use ACA have just been hearing the propaganda he's spewing. Cooper trying to get him to give specifics.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


trump doesn't have the first idea what he's going to have for a health plan
posted by pyramid termite at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Donald Trump said "Big Lie." Please, please, please, hit that back at him!
posted by mhz at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump:
1) Repeal Obamacare
2) ???
3) Everyone is happy!

Anderson Cooper:

So what's step 2?
posted by Talez at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


uh so wasnt there another moderator
like from abc or something
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He says getting rid of the state line reatrictions will create plans so good!
posted by sweetmarie at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016


Wow, he is totally using Bernie Sanders, trying to pander to a college student audience.
"You're gonna have plans that are so good..."
posted by Superplin at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anderson Cooper is a fucking hero tonight.
posted by Flashman at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


Anderson you will never get him nailed down on details. He knows NOTHING.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is really scary. She's making cogent arguments but she's not hitting the notes that matter in relation to the shit he's stirring. Moderators need to challenge his bullsh*t.
posted by freya_lamb at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Block grants are socialism, you orange asshole.
posted by vrakatar at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"plans are gonna be so good"

This is the part where I feel like crying because Hillary gave a great explanation and Trump's answers are so simple.
posted by Tarumba at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: You're going to have the best health care plans

Cooper: How?

Trump: You're going to have the best health care plans.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


I feel like I'm dreaming, or watching SNL, or dreaming about SNL or somthing. It's just unbelieveable that this is a presidential debate. Three months ago - hell, three weeks ago - I would not have believed that a debate could ever go like this. The interruptions, the Trump word salad, not to mention the tape.

(The ignoring the time limit & not answering questions is the most normal part of the debate though.)
posted by insectosaurus at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


An undecided Muslim? Really?
posted by entropicamericana at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


Islamophobia: That's a shame.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm really happy about how much obvious flustered word salad spewing out of Orange's mouth.

This might be over, guys! It might finally be over!
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nobody understands this whole "abolish boundaries around the states" idea Trump mentions; I don't and I work in healthcare.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary has the head tilt and facial expression of a social worker hearing out an unhinged client
posted by rmless at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [67 favorites]


"Believe it or not, Republicans believe very strongly in this. We're gonna block grant into the states, into Medicaid."
posted by Superplin at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


'You're right about Islamophobia and that's a shame.'
posted by box at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is he asking this Muslim woman to report people?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


ya know how a cat looks like when it is taking a shit? trump has that face a lot when Hillary is speaking. A cat taking a shit expression; appears thoughtful but is really just taking a shit.
posted by futz at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [68 favorites]


"Muslims have to report the problems when they see them"
posted by sweetmarie at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


How will Trump provide coverage for pre-existing coverage? With block grants.

I thought I'd restocked my evens, but at this rate...
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm just following this from all of your comments but it's giving me so much anxiety that I'm going to watch Starling and her kittens to calm down. Thank you all for watching so I don't have to. Go team Clinton.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


YOU KNOW WHO ELSE SAID TO SPY ON YOUR NEIGHBOUR?
posted by Talez at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


He's now blaming Muslims for Islamophobia.
posted by RedEmma at 6:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


For context, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, the man who gave us single payer healthcare, the greatest Canadian.
posted by peppermind at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm about 15 minutes behind :-( , but: they need to kick this audience out.
posted by jferg at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@pattonoswalt
In extreme SJW terms, Hillary is guilty of "fact shaming" Donald. #debates
posted by chris24 at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


He thinks Islamaphobia is bad now.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is really scary. She's making cogent arguments but she's not hitting the notes that matter in relation to the shit he's stirring. Moderators need to challenge his bullsh*t.

I think he's actually shoring up his position with conservatives.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump's not wearing his wedding band. Does he normally not?

I've never noticed him wearing one on any occasion, so it's as missing as his suspenders or his fedora, I believe.
posted by rokusan at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Q: What are you going to do to stop Islamophobia?
Trump: Muslims are required to report on RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


The next question is about islamaphobia.

Trump says we have to make sure when muslims come in they report when they see "problems".
posted by winna at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's convinced the undecided Muslim woman. Radical Islamic Terra.
posted by mhz at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The problem is 'Islamophobia' you fucking git.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Q about Islamophobia. He is absolutely bombing the answer.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's very, very out of breath.
posted by postagepaid at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Islamophobia, boy, I don't know
posted by Torosaurus at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


report, citizen, or we'll start a movement against muslims!

what a terrible answer
posted by pyramid termite at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Go outside, you look at Paris" where does he think he is right now...
posted by acidic at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


His word salad kind of sounds like the beginning of a bullshit paper.

"Before we answer the question of this essay prompt, we must ask ourselves: what is a prompt? What is an essay. The problem posed by this question is...well, it's a problem."
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


"You're right about Islamophobia, and that's a shame, BUT [... we have to call out Muslims]"
posted by Theiform at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016


Good Ford, Trump is blaming Muslims for Islamophobia.
posted by Gelatin at 6:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


When I saw this woman in the audience I knew she would fluster Trump
posted by Countess Elena at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dear god, let someone in the audience say in response, "Okay, I'd like to report you, Mr. Trump, seeing as you're definitely a threat to national security"
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


This is just unbelievable. I knew rationally that it would be worse than the first one, but it's far worse even than I expected. I think he's losing and that's great and all but after this I need to vomit and then curl up in a ball for a few days.
posted by gerstle at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"How will you deal with people like me [a Muslim-American] suffering the effects of islamophobia?"
"We have to make sure that Muslims report when they see things. Muslims have to report the problems when they see them, like in San Bernardino. If they don't do that... Orlando, San Bernardino, Paris."

And there's the old standard of how neither Clinton nor Obama will say "radical Islamic terror"--"before you solve it, you have to say the name."
posted by Superplin at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


YOU KNOW WHO ELSE SAID TO SPY ON YOUR NEIGHBOUR?

The New York City Transit Authority?
posted by rokusan at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


Muslim lady: I'm scared of islamophobia

Trump: HILLARY WONT SAY RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM
posted by Tarumba at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Didn't the FBI attempt to run a sting on a NY mosque by sending in someone acting shifty and their officer got turned in to the FBI by the worried, uh, parishioners can't be the right word, but those involved in the mosque?
posted by Lykosidae at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


@LOLGOP: HOW IS THERE AN UNDECIDED MUSLIM VOTER?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


He is leaning on a chair in the background.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


@ChuckTodd: Tomorrow is going to be one of the most consequential days in the modern history of the GOP.
posted by gerryblog at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We've had Muslims in America since George Washington."
I love that she is pushing back hard against the othering.
posted by Superplin at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [65 favorites]


COURAGE GERSTLE! WE CAN DO IT!
posted by vrakatar at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


What... what's he doing to that chair?
posted by Don Pepino at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is appealing to his base. I don't think he's getting anyone else, but his base is going to be thrilled.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"We are not at war with Islam" well said, Hillary.
posted by gingerbeer at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME THIS MAN IS NOT COKED OUT OF HIS MOTHERFUCKING GOURD.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


petebest, thank you for transcribing full answers to questions! It's really helpful for people like me who can't watch right now.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump invoking Orlando to justify Islamophobia is the point where I totally lost it.
posted by ITheCosmos at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


TRUMP: Trump we'l be able to take care of people without having to have insurance.

Q: With Islamaphobia on the rise, how will you help people like me when its on the rise

TRUMP: You're right, it's on the rise and that's a shame. But it's a problem and we have to be sure people report it when they see it going on, like San Bernadino. Muslims have to report problems when they see them. And there's a reason for everyting, if they don't do that it's a very situation for our country, if you look at and she won't say radical Islamic terrorist, to solve it you have to say the name. You have to say the name.

HRC: THank you for your question. I've heard this from a lot of Muslim Americans because they'res been a lot of divisive dark things said about Muslim Americans. We've had Muslims in American muslims in this country since George Washington. My vision is everyone has a place, if you work hard and contribute, that's what we want for our children and grandchildren. It's dangerous to engage in the demagogugic rhetoric from Donald. I've heard from people around america that people want to be included in our country.

It's also important that we have ISIS threat, and we should understand they have violent terrorists, and we are not at war with a religion. It's a mistake and ISIS want us to think that we're at war of a religion.
posted by petebest at 6:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


"Before you solve it, you have to say the name."

That's actually a good line, in that it's very catchy and earworm-ready.

(So there's no way in hell he wrote that one.)
posted by rokusan at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016


Islamophobia is a GIFT TO ISIS. Thank you!
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wow. Yelling in the direction of a Muslim woman about radical Islam doesn't play well for this atheist sitting in her living room.
posted by xyzzy at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Clinton: "We are not at war with Islam. It plays into the hands of the terrorists to act as if we are".

Yes!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [52 favorites]


Clinton says we are not at war with Islam and it is a mistake to act as if we are.
posted by winna at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Raddatz is asking about the Muslim ban and whether Trump still supports it.
posted by medusa at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"If I had been President, Captain Khan would be alive today" [real]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


No, he doesn't get to say "he would be alive today" about Captain Khan.
posted by Justinian at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


Yes thank you for transcribing. And thank you everyone else who is live blogging/
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016


"Answer the question."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is just unbelievable. I knew rationally that it would be worse than the first one, but it's far worse even than I expected.

It's the moderators. They aren't reining in either of them. They need to cut off the mics as soon as time is up for either of them, and when Trump tries to interrupt Clinton. There should be zero tolerance for any of that.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really didn't like that answer from Hillary. She was talking about using Muslims "as our eyes and ears", which was pretty much exactly the same thing that Trump said, only slightly more tactful.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


People in this bar screeeeeamed when he said Kahn would be alive today
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


""Many people saw the bombs all over the apartment in san bernardino." A complete and total lie. Never happened." "Trump is repeating internet conspiracy theories as fact." --@kurteichenwald
posted by zachlipton at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


"Muslims have to report.... the problems when they see them."

I am honestly having problems even following what he is trying to say. It is just completely incoherent rambling.

And now just starts obsessing with "say the name!" again. I feel like I am watching a youtube video with random lines from his rallies spliced together.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


OH SNAP THERE IS ANOTHER MODERATOR
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "Why don't you interrupt her? You interrupt me all the time."
posted by medusa at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


he would have been alive today because i am cheeto jesus and i can resurrect the dead!
posted by pyramid termite at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is doing this creepy chair-humping move right now -- just holding onto the back of the chair and swaying into it repeatedly. He really has all the physical mannerisms of a guilty toddler.
posted by ourobouros at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


EXTREME VETTING!
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: "Why don't you interrupt her?"

Maybe because she's answering the freakin' questions!
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


BAN = EXTREME VETTING
posted by valkane at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016


"Captain Khan is an American hero, and had I been president at the time, he would be alive today."

That is so gross.
posted by Superplin at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


"We don't know who they are, where they're from, what they did, as long as they love me!"
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"The great Trojan horse of all time."

I can't even. It's like Nazi Germany.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Why are you interrupting me and not her?
posted by Sophie1 at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016


Did he just snap at her about asking a question? My roommate is choosing NOW to do the dishes. :/
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I will send her campaign $100 right now if she offers him a Kleenex.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


(The moderators seem to be trading off on managing questions one by one)
posted by rmless at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016


I adore that the moderators for this debate are at least more willing to push him to answer the goddamn questions this time around. Not always successful, but boy it's good to hear regardless.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Nobody understands this whole "abolish boundaries around the states" idea Trump mentions; I don't and I work in healthcare.

It's the idea of removing state regulation of insurance policies to improve competition.

What would most likely happen (in the GOP free-market wet dream scenario) is that Idaho or some other small, relatively poor state would lower its insurance standards, insurance cos. would rush in, race to the bottom in offering cheap dogshit policies, and if you live outside Idaho and you bought an Idaho plan that doesn't cover you when you need it you're probably SOL because your primary recourse is to the Idaho commissioner of insurance, who is bought and paid for by the health insurers. Not that far from what happened in South Dakota with credit cards.

But it's incoherent on its face.
posted by holgate at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


Moderators ask Trump to answer the question, yet again, like they have asked for every question so far.
posted by mochapickle at 6:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


'I believe in safe zones. I believe in having other people pay for them.'
posted by box at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reader from the future : Trump just whined to the moderators about how his questions are hard

(correction, about being interrupted)
posted by Tarumba at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


God it is almost cathartic to see moderators doing their job and essentially saying"answer the fucking question, dude".
posted by windbox at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Fine response from Clinton on Islamophobia. She addressed the question, stressed that unity is the key to security and pointed out that alienating Islamic countries strengthens fundamentalist terrorists.
posted by dazed_one at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016


He is ignoring the question even as the moderator asks him repeatedly to answer the question.
posted by winna at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016


I like the fact that the moderator just told Trump, "No. Answer the question." I just wish that the press had started talking like that a year and a half ago.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]



@LOLGOP: HOW IS THERE AN UNDECIDED MUSLIM VOTER?

How is there an UNDECIDED voter? In an election where the candidates are *this* disparate, how does there even exist a fencepost for people to straddle? There is no middle. I just don't understand how you can look at both of these people and think, "Well, that was a good point" about both of them.
posted by honeybee413 at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


This fidgeting, Jesus. That is not how a professional politician acts.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm impressed with the spine the moderators are showing. Both of them have stopped Trump mid-rant to get a question in.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hillary looks bored. This is like playing cards with my sister's kids.
posted by vrakatar at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trumps is now claiming that the intake of Syrian refugees is the "great trojan horse of all time...hundreds of thousands of people coming in from Syria".

I mean, that's a blatant lie. It's closer to 10,000.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


10 to 65 thousand refugees - where does donnie get hundreds of thousands?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Extreme Vetting involves a lot of chairshots, tables, and is run out of a Philly bingo hall with Joey Styles.
posted by splen at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The question question was approximately "What will you as President do to protect American Muslims"... Did Trump during his rebuttal walk this all the way around to internment camps again?
posted by at by at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good on Clinton for saying most refugees aren't a risk.

Good on her, too, for calling out the Russians for their part.
posted by Gelatin at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I have to say, these are the best mods ever. And the ones at this debate as well.
posted by valkane at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


"We are a country founded on religious freedom and liberty" !
posted by sweetmarie at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump: "Why don't you interrupt her?"
Maybe because she's answering the freakin' questions!

Oh, they're both dodging and redirecting back to attacks on the other instead of sticking to the questions.

It's just that she does it so much more eloquently.
posted by rokusan at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hilary is appealing to logic. We're doomed.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


We're a country founded in religious liberty.

Goddamn right.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


YES HILLARY! They're suffering! We need to help! Don't apologize! We'll take precautions but dammit we're gonna help!
posted by Talez at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


RUSSIA! She's now trying to bring it around to Russia, which is an interesting tactic. I also appreciate that there are 2 minute clock/timers in the background
posted by Torosaurus at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I adore that the moderators for this debate are at least more willing to push him to answer the goddamn questions this time around. Not always successful, but boy it's good to hear regardless.

The audio engineer ducked Trump's mic so the moderator could be heard in the last crosstalk. Good job, guys..
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


What was he pointing to?
posted by ian1977 at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is just unbelievable. I knew rationally that it would be worse than the first one, but it's far worse even than I expected. I think he's losing and that's great and all but after this I need to vomit and then curl up in a ball for a few days.

I have been a politics junkie for decades. I've watched every debate since 1988. C-Span is my favorite channel. Politics are to me what sports are to other people.

And I feel like that's changed forever. This is no fun anymore. This is scary and disgusting. I've never watched a debate with such deep, gut-level fear for my country. I'm going to have to call in sick the day after election day, and if Trump somehow gets into the Oval Office, I think I have to figure out some way to move to another country. Canada's a long way from my home in Texas, but I can't live in the US if that man is the president. I'd be stressed out all the time.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [73 favorites]


Hillary on refugees: We are not carrying nearly the load that Europe is.

I love that. We need to bring in our share as a country.
posted by mochapickle at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


How is there an UNDECIDED voter? In an election where the candidates are *this* disparate, how does there even exist a fencepost for people to straddle?
I don't think there are a lot of undecided voters who are trying to figure out whether to vote for Trump or whether to vote for Clinton. I think there are a lot of voters who are undecided about whether they're going to vote at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Only one candidate is repeatedly arguing with the moderators and it's not Clinton. Is anybody besides his base even the slightest bit persuaded by his thuggish argumentativeness?
posted by at by at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Why are you letting him respond?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is not going to do well in the Monday morning fact checking. He's playing to his base, which doesn't care, but spinning yarns out of the fever swamps doesn't seem an effective strategy to broaden his appeal.
posted by Gelatin at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I was against the war in Iraq. It has not been debunked. She went 25 seconds over her time."

This is madness.
posted by mhz at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Hillary misses another chance to emphasize how long and arduous the refugee application process already is
posted by theodolite at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Martha and Anderson for every debate, please.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump: "She just went about 25 seconds over her time!"

Raddatz: "She did not."

Trump is even worse than I could have imagined this debate.
posted by Justinian at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [69 favorites]


Q: Is your muslim ban on, or off like Pence said?

TRUMP: She voted for the war. I wouldn't have had our people in Iraq, which would have saved Captain Khan. The imi . .

Q: Does the muslim ban still stand?

TRUMP: It's called EXTREME. VETTING. and HRC wants to allow a 550% increase over Obama, people are coming into our country and people are coming in and we don't know where they're coming from, and why they're here. We have states that are not carrying their weight but they have plenty of money. Hundreds of thousands coming in from Syria, and we don't know anything about them or their love for our country.

Q: Why take the risk of letting refugees in the country

HRC: There are a lot of refugees, women and children there are women suffering in this war, largely because of Russian agression . . we will have that vetting that is is as tough as it needs to be from experts and others, but it's important for our policy not to say we'll ban people on their religion. We're founded on religious freedom, how to do that without causing great distress in our country, are you going to give people a test? It's extremely unwise and dangerous, and a lot of the terrorist sites that use Donald's words to recruit fighters, and He has said he wasn't for the war he was.

TRUMP I wasn't

MR: There's been lots of reporting on that
posted by petebest at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


He's just laying the groundwork for a "the moderators were biased against me" spin the rest of the week. He's losing and he knows it. This is about who can he take down with him, and how much of the GOP can he take with him to TrumpTV.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did he say "Extreme Vetting" involves districts? Didn't Neil Blomkamp make a movie about districts?
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


And again Bernie Sanders. Who is campaigning with her.
posted by mhz at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The way that Trump is twitchily looming near HRC, and the clear loathing with which he says her and interrupts with attacks on her is an absolutely horrendous look for him.

And now--who's already rambled and interrupted NUMEROUS times--Trump whined that "she's gone 25 seconds over her time!"

HE IS SO IRREDEEMABLY DISGUSTING AND REPELLENT
posted by TwoStride at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Is there going to be a bathroom break because I don't know how people twice my age can stand it, but
posted by Countess Elena at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just a friendly reminder that Anderson Cooper interned at the CIA.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Who does he think he's winning dropping Sanders like that?
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like the fact that the moderator just told Trump, "No. Answer the question." I just wish that the press had started talking like that a year and a half ago.

I wish all moderators (and interviewers, and journalists in general) would do that to all politicians, of all stripes, all the time.

It's only exciting tonight because it's so freaking rare.
posted by rokusan at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Hillary's doing fine. The first 30 minutes of this were the campaign imo. He didn't apologize and shat all over his Christian followers.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Memo to Kellyanne Conway. The shoutouts to Bernie don't work.
posted by mikelieman at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump claiming [incorrectly again] that he has been endorsed by ICE.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


that's a lot longer than 25 seconds - why are they letting him do this shit?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"She just went 25 seconds over her time." *proceeds to ramble on for several minutes*
posted by ckape at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hilary is appealing to logic. We're doomed.

I think liberals really, really miss this, including in this thread. Hillary can be making the better logical arguments and still be doing worse because Trump knows how to play media appearances so well. It doesn't matter if you make the better argument as long as you make the argument better.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Wow, trump is bringing up drugs coming in from the southern border and tripling down on his anti-Mexican comments. This is really insane.
posted by rmless at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I was against the war in Iraq. It has not been debunked. She went 25 seconds over her time."

This is Trump having a meltdown when he starts to lose the extreme privilege he's enjoyed his whole life.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


> Is there going to be a bathroom break because I don't know how people twice my age can stand it, but

They're not drinking as heavily as we are?
posted by Westringia F. at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


tRUMP is a historic low point for america. This will be in the history books. His name will forever be equated with failure. His worst nightmare.
posted by futz at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm sure Obama holds private opinions that may be more extreme than his publicly presented opinions. Thats what politics is, you represent constituents.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


he just nodded when she said "i think what he said was unwise and dangerous"

He's been nodding oddly thruout.
(Oops, forgot what else I wanted to say, the Bad Man is confusing me.)
posted by NorthernLite at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016


"Is it okay for politicians to be two-faced" is an incredibly loaded question to choose from the online submissions.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is there going to be a bathroom break because I don't know how people twice my age can stand it, but

To be fair the candidates aren't pounding beers like the rest of us
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Glad they're questioning her on the "public and private positions" quote. That's fair.

They should ask her to clarify her "dream of a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders" now, too, to get ahead of the narrative.
posted by rokusan at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why does he look like he's smelling his own farts?
posted by cytherea at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Jays/Rangers game is infinitely more informative about the issues than Trump. I'm glad I've got it on for whenever he speaks.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh my god, Lincoln strategy! Showing she can talk about it all.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Martha and Anderson for every debate, please.

What had they done to deserve that sort of punishment?
posted by at by at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Cameraman has to do a lot of work following Trump as he ambles about and feels up chairs.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Donald looks directly into the camera. Suddenly there's a chill in my room and I feel all my hair turning white.
posted by mochapickle at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Please tell me she's doing better and he's doing worse than I think they are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Earlier today, I posted a long, cathartic FB post that was addressed to my parents (without naming them) about how dangerous Trump is. A man that I've known since elementary school asked if he could share it because, in part, he's the father of two sons and Trump is everything he's teaching his sons not to be.

Reader, I cried. I cried happy tears because I really needed to be reminded that we (humans) are better than this. I have my happy little MeFi enclave, and I appreciate all of you, but I needed that real life boost because I haven't seen a single Clinton sign in person, but have to drive through a marathon of Trump signs.
posted by Ruki at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [82 favorites]


Trump essentially equated "extreme vetting" with a religion-based ban, negating the months of work that his campaign has done trying to separate "extreme vetting" as different and permitted by the constitution.
posted by zennie at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


no one but a fool believes that a politician would have an identical private and public set of thoughts
posted by pyramid termite at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is putting the "private versus public positions" in the context of her having watched the movie Lincoln.
posted by winna at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Lincoln was a nice segue.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016


I just realized that I was in the old thread and was really impressed that everyone was just watching the debate and holding their thoughts until the end. Oops...926 posts missed.
posted by JennyJupiter at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


Oooo she has gone there over Putin. I didn't expect that so explicitly
posted by Countess Elena at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


She really seems to be trying to draw him out on Russia
posted by Flashman at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's nailing this, and he's coming off as unhinged.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Shifting tack to Russia and tax returns, deflecting from Wikileaks.
posted by tetsuo at 6:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


They are ducking the mics to let the moderators interrupt.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


By and large, the undecided voters, in my experience, are folks who know that they can't support Trump, but have some sort of major reservation about supporting Clinton, too. Most of the ones I've actually talked to on the subject, their reservations tend to be something in the many and varied lies that have been accepted as truths about her, but they're choosing to believe the lie over evidence of actual, consensual reality.

So basically, we have undecided voters because they believe the lies, but can see that Trump's a disaster.
posted by Archelaus at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Seeing him loom around HRC like this is fucking triggering, why the fuck isn't there a personal bubble zone to protect her
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


A friend is livetweeting Golden Girls episodes during every debate and I think he's got the right idea.
posted by phooky at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


"I don't know Putin."

Um, okay.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Blaming the lie on Abraham Lincoln"?? Was he even listening?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


That Russian scare bit isn't working, and the segue into tax returns was clumsy.

She needs to engage less in the nonsense arguments and let him talk himself silly.
posted by rokusan at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016


Donald Trump thinks the audience is laughing with him.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Remember when Abraham Lincoln chopped down that cherry tree?
posted by XMLicious at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know nothing about Russia!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump: Maybe there was no hacking.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He knows nothing about Russia.
posted by vrakatar at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016


WHY ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT LINCOLN

Because Daniel Day Lewis is very handsome.
posted by rokusan at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]




The clearest indication of character is what people find laughable
J.W. von Goethe
posted by robbyrobs at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Will the 400 pound basement hacker appear again?
posted by tetsuo at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why does he look like he's smelling his own farts?

It's the smell of a man who just realized he will never be president and will go down in the history books as a despised, small, morally ugly human being.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump knows nothing about Russia! He knows about Russia, but...
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


He just said he "knows nothing about Russia." Shouldn't... the President maybe know something about Russia?
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


I cannot parse his words.
posted by ian1977 at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton beginning to ramble a bit when confronted with statements about having a "private and public position" on issues. Did not come off well.
posted by Room 101 at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016


I knows nothing about russia. Vote for me.
posted by valkane at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "I know nothing about Russia"

YOU WANT TO BE PRESIDENT, FOOL
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Well I know which one of them is going to have the opportunity to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom, I tell you what.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Look what she did! AGAIN! The question was about her weak spot, the GS speeches and saying there are "public positions" and "private positions".... AND SHE GOT TRUMP TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA.
posted by Justinian at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


oh snap i spilled water on the trumpbot my bad
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ok, he's fucking coked out of his gourd and it's completely obvious.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Now he's rambling about a post office?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Really, guy? You're going to bring up your own taxes?

Let us fact-check your "hundreds of millions of dollars" in taxes, please.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


See how much better she looks the longer Trump keeps talking?

Run with that, team.
posted by rokusan at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


>wow like that was a harsh question for Clinton and trump is fucking it up SO HARD
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just like in the first debate when the question was about her Emails and she got Trump talking about taxes! Clinton is a master and Trump is ridiculous.
posted by Justinian at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Weird bragging and wow he pays so much taxes...hundreds of millions.
posted by tetsuo at 6:52 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump just bragged that Clinton raised more money than he did.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


This answer is absolutely inscrutable.

Maybe there was no hacking?
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016


what a bullshit artist he is - he just lied about what she said about lincoln

post office? what the hell is that about the post office? did he help them out as a bankruptcy specialist?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He is seriously rambling, I can't even tell what he's trying to say.
posted by medusa at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm so terrified of the narrative tomorrow because Trump is not actively shitting himself.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He is treating this like one of his rallies.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


They ought to remove the people making noise in the audience.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The question was about Wikileaks, and he is going on about his taxes and how he built a successful post office?
posted by Pink Frost at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016


I am in the middle of my public administration masters and keeping your private opinions from influencing public policy is like public administration 101
posted by Tarumba at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


yeah, we know your sheet, donnie. you are full of it.
posted by futz at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


HE PLUGS HIS DC HOTEL AGAIN.

And says five times he has no loans with Russia. Which in mirror-speak says he does. Bigly.
posted by mochapickle at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Commercial break! Keep plugging that hotel, Donald.
posted by yeti at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why can't the IRS speed up its audit so that he doesn't have an excuse anymore?
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


he doesn't come across as professional at all. but i do wonder if his people think he's doing good?

I think the people he appeals most to don't care about professionalism whatsoever

I think they feel uber vindicated to see someone who thinks like them in power on a global stage saying all the shit they wish they could make people hear on a daily basis

There are hundreds of thousands of bullies living vicariously through him right now, and they'll come out to vote in droves to ensure that he is able to keep validating their existence and their atrocious beliefs until kingdom come
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


'As soon as my routine audit's finished, I'll release my returns.'
posted by box at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump: "I pay hundred of millions of dollars in taxes".

Come on, dude. We all know that's a lie.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


These questions are so fucking stupid.
posted by asteria at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jesus, I thought the NSA itself said that Russia was behind the hacking.
posted by Miko at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"I know nothing about Russia, I know- I mean, I know Russia. But I know nothing about Russia." -Trump [real]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


A friend is livetweeting Golden Girls episodes during every debate and I think he's got the right idea.

Trump is such a Stan Zbornak.
posted by drezdn at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


That Russian scare bit isn't working, and the segue into tax returns was clumsy.

Agreed.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing the hotel in DC was a conversion of an old post office?
posted by Flashman at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


post office? what the hell is that about the post office? did he help them out as a bankruptcy specialist?

His DC hotel is the old post office.
posted by mochapickle at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm sorry I missed the lead-in but Trump's line "That's the big difference between Abraham Lincoln and you. [sniiiiiiff]" is something a SNL writer wished he'd written.

Oh yeah he's now claiming he's paid hundreds of thousands millions in taxes. So he's not smart any more? Or is this redefining smart?
posted by at by at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


This bit about the speeches isn't going well. Ugh. Trump is talking about her friends' tax deductions.
"I pay hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes. As soon as the audit is done I'll be proud to release my taxes."
posted by Superplin at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's nailing this, and he's coming off as unhinged.

I don't know that I'd agree with the first part. Clinton is explaining get stances and answers. That's always come off as a negative except for non-supporters.

Sure, he's nuts. But she isn't hitting him well right now.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here comes the tax return question. And Trump admits taking advantage of the tax code.
posted by Gelatin at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary needs those tax loopholes so people have extra money laying around to make negative ads on Donald trump.
posted by ian1977 at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's an hour in, his stamina is lagging and his sentences are becoming even more incoherent.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "Why didn't you change [the tax code] when you were a senator?".

Does Trump even know how the Senate works?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Why didn't that short-haired kid just ask "Mr. Trump, why don't you pay taxes?"
posted by valkane at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016


I don't think that a senator (nor a president) can unilaterally change the tax code.
posted by mhum at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Listening to this man makes me feel drunk because it makes no sense.
posted by winna at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just had a thought: does he sniff after he knowingly tells a lie? Maybe I just noticed it because he sniffed loudly after saying "I pay millions and millions of dollars in taxes."
posted by cooker girl at 6:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hilary should sticks to facts, and skip the Donald attacks, he can sink himself and otherwise it's just he said/she said.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


... I just dropped in on Frank Luntz twitter and focus group. Apparently Trump's winning at the half time mark
posted by Francis at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just want Hillary to be more of a leader in this debate. She is not really taking the lead here. I want her to be bold and presidential, not get caught up in his arguments.
posted by Dr_Janeway at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


She could nail him right now, "well I didn't have unilateral power to change the tax code, Donald".
posted by tetsuo at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The question is what would you do so that the wealthy pay their fair share, maybe he didnt understand and just spewed all of his taxes talking points. BIG LEAGUE.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Trump Hotel is the Old Post office in Washington DC. But only people obsessively following politics and/or DC local news know that. Tens of millions of people think he was talking about people who deliver the mail.
posted by zachlipton at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


His base is lapping this shit up.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why didn't she do it? Because there are 100 senators, two houses of congress and three branches of government, which you'd know if you ever cracked a civics book you fucking shitstain.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


across the land, twitter parodists and aspiring SNL writers are throwing up their hands in horror, deleting all their accounts
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Omg cnn closed captioning transcribed it as bigley!!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


"If you could look at me"

who was he talking to?
posted by futz at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why does he look like he's smelling his own farts?

Trying to get every last little atom of cocaine that might still be on his upper lip...

Meanwhile, that rambling about "balance sheets" and "old post office" (about his taxes) was incoherent even by DJT standards.

The "I don't know anything about Russia" is gonna be a new attack ad by the end of the night...

And he dropped another "Bigly" referencing the tax cuts he's gonna offer.
posted by TwoStride at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Take a drink if you had "bigly" on your bingo card!
posted by donatella at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Michael Steele ‏@MichaelSteele
GOP at this moment. #debate
[nuclear explosion.gif]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
posted by Talez at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [49 favorites]


Trump's finding his groove now, he's much more relaxed and speaking freely. Unfortunately his comfort zone is some weird angry concussed grandad rant.
posted by at by at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


"We're cutting them [taxes] bigly."
posted by winna at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


You're doing it wrong, winna. You need to feel drunk because you are drinking.

Get with the program, already.
posted by rokusan at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: I don't understand how one senator cannot singlehandedly make every single change she wants. (essentially)
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


It hasn't gotten gross, yet, kids. Will it happen?
posted by valkane at 6:55 PM on October 9, 2016


This is not the rout I wanted it to be.
posted by Superplin at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm trying to keep track and I can't - how will wealthy pay more in taxes? Carried interest, Clinton has been there, she's raising taxes, corporate tax cuts from 35 to 15%. Alternative reality.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump's tax cuts are not for the middle class. I hope she points that out.

...we have "no growth"?! I agree. This is madness.
posted by Gelatin at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton: "Everything you've just heard from Donald is not true".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is Trump just wandering off, facing upstage with his head hung?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016


Listening to this man makes me feel drunk because it makes no sense.

I do my best debating drunk and I can barely follow him. He doesn't speak in complete sentences, much less coherent trains of thought strung together.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


That Russian scare bit isn't working, and the segue into tax returns was clumsy.

It worked because Trump stuttered about that instead of saying anything of substance about what (if anything) he could accuse her of in the Goldman Sachs emails. He just punted it, again. Delightful.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's 34 minutes left for it to get gross.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016


"I will cut them bigly." And English teachers all over the country cringe...
posted by SisterHavana at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ha! Anderson Cooper had to remind Clinton of what the question was, because Trump's response was so incoherent.
posted by Gelatin at 6:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


"His base is lapping this shit up."

They never needed convincing, the more he appeals to them the less he appeals to normal people
posted by Tarumba at 6:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wish Hillary would ignore his bs and repond to the questions like he wasn't there. Just don't even dignify his lies with the time needed to say they are lies. She isn't as good as he is at getting dirty and mean and she should steer clear from that altogether and just talk about how she is going to be a great president.
posted by rmless at 6:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


"Big-league" not "bigly"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


god, does he even know how to stand still?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:57 PM on October 9, 2016


Two unicorns, great minds think alike!
posted by cooker girl at 6:57 PM on October 9, 2016


I think in this case he actually said "big-league", which is at least grammatically correct.
posted by Captain l'escalier at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016


"I will cut them bigly." And English teachers all over the country cringe...

I think he's saying "Big league."
posted by Rykey at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really feel like I should be liquidating all USD assets, abandoning my house, and moving to Tasmania or something.
posted by aramaic at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016


Apparently Trump's winning at the half time mark

Because he is LITERALLY not melting down right in front of us. He is rambling, incoherent and almost nothing he's saying is true and EVERYONE KNOWS IT. But he's winning, because....he's still breathing? No visible frothing at the mouth? COME ON
posted by triggerfinger at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


Is he gonna crash off all that coke soon? Because that would be amazing
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's good she's saying the gains since the Great Recession go to the top, but I wish she'd have said that "cut taxes and regulations" never does work.
posted by Gelatin at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump's stance reminds me of Ralph Wiggum.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Remember there are huge line backer sized Secret Service guys there. If Trump starts getting physical, he's going to find himself restrained quickly.
posted by humanfont at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016


Every time the moderators cite "popular on Facebook" as a justification for a question, I die a little inside.
posted by rokusan at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Wait a minute, did he just admit to taking that $916m loss to avoid paying federal income tax?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


I pay tremendous numbers of taxes.
posted by mhz at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


he can't even stop himself from unspooling his canned responses
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016


I really feel like I should be liquidating all USD assets, abandoning my house, and moving to Tasmania or something.

They have some nice whisky distilleries now.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I will cut them bigly." And English teachers all over the country cringe...


Please, "bigly" has been in continuous use for 600 years.
posted by dilaudid at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump just admitted that he used the tax writeoff to avoid paying income tax.
posted by winna at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump's aggressive behavior seems to be supercharging Clinton. I've never seen her so passionate and it looks good on her.
posted by maxsparber at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


We have had a Trump piñata lying around, which my partner has been using as a prop on his book tour. Our cat Quark just knocked it over. I'm with her.
posted by carrienation at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


But maybe more importantly, Hillary has friends.

By his own admission, there is not a single person in this world that is actually his friend.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"I will cut them bigly." And English teachers all over the country cringe...

I think he's saying "Big league."

Still cringing, if that matters.
posted by bibliowench at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald, please name one provision of the tax code that you would change besides 'carried interest'
posted by leotrotsky at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


J.K. Seazer: Wait a minute, did he just admit to taking that $916m loss to avoid paying federal income tax?

Yes. He said, "Of course I do."
posted by Superplin at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anderson Cooper: "Can you say how many years you avoided paying taxes?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


I love depreciation! Some of my best friends are depreciation!
posted by Dr. Zira at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Except for the first 20 minutes or so, I think this has been a wash. She's not really countering his bullshit with the truth. I mean, she's trying. Pretty sure the big take-away, unless something happens, is going to be him threatening to jail her. Or just dominating the room.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anderson asked point blank if Donald claimed a billion in losses to avoid federal taxes.
The answer: "Of course I do. Of course."
posted by mochapickle at 6:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is in the sketchy phase of the comedown. He needs another line to make it through this thing. He can probably even feel his face again.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Why are the polls saying Trump is winning the debate?!
posted by orangutan at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm sorry I missed the lead-in but Trump's line "That's the big difference between Abraham Lincoln and you. [sniiiiiiff]" is something a SNL writer wished he'd written.

That Lincoln didn't lie! In case anyone missed it, he's confusing the myths about George Washington with those of Abraham Lincoln! ROFL. Lincoln built the log cabin (Lincoln Log toys), George Washington chopped down the cherry tree as a kid and openly admitted it because he supposedly couldn't lie.
posted by XMLicious at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is hitting her with absolutely everything he can. She is UNFLAPPABLE.
posted by Talez at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yes, he did admit to not paying federal income taxes by claiming depreciation from his enormous business losses
posted by rmless at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


why didn't she do something about it? because your republican friends won't let her!
posted by pyramid termite at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016


Clinton quoting Reagan! "There you go again."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The one thing about this debate I NEED Clinton to say, "Donald, clearly you don't understand how passing a law works."
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Lady with glasses behind him doing some serious eye-rolling.
posted by tetsuo at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016


Clinton's never tried to do anything about health care in the last 30 years???
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Anderson Cooper just asked how many years he has avoided paying federal income tax and trump said he loved depreciation.
posted by winna at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait. Has it been "big league" all along?
posted by allthinky at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump just answered Anderson Cooper's question, "Do you use that loss to avoid paying federal income tax?" with, "Of course I do."

"Can you say how many years you avoided paying fed income tax?"

"No."

Then back to attacking Clinton. This is amazing.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"She talks about health care. Why didn't she do anything about it?"

The goddamn Republicans, that's why.
posted by Gelatin at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Wasn't she first lady of Arkansas 30 years ago? How was she supposed to fix the tax code back then?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"She's been in this for 30 years - why did she leave the taxes that way, why didn't she fix health care". I can't believe he went there.
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I do not think Trump realizes what he has just done thanks to that monster key bump.
posted by winna at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish she would say, "You don't seem to know how democracy works, Donald, one politician can't pass unilateral laws because this country doesn't need or want a despot."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


"She talks about healthcare, why has she never done anything about it?" Because Republicans were asking her why she wasn't baking cookies!!!!
posted by antinomia at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


She really needs to start throwing some major punches.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Under our Constitution, Presidents have something called veto power."

Civics 101, lecturer: Hillary Clinton.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


Clinton: "30 years this, and 30 years that. So, let me talk about my 30 years in public service. I'm glad to do it".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [45 favorites]


"Under our constitution, presidents have veto power."

And… now she can talk about her thirty years. Please finish it off with his 30 years of bankruptcies.
posted by mhz at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


He actually says bigly on twitter.
posted by mochapickle at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Loved how when he kept interrupting her she just smiled and folded her arms.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


veto burn!!! - trump is appealing to the ignorant who don't understand our government and that one senator can't do much by herself
posted by pyramid termite at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes it has been "big league" all along. IT's a favorite phrase of his, just not something normal people say so it's been confusing.
posted by Miko at 7:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes Hillary you need to step up!
posted by Tarumba at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016


we must drive him into the sea
posted by poffin boffin at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [53 favorites]


LOL he just answered, without prompting, and incorrectly, the "how does a bill become a law" question we've been dying to ask!!!
posted by acidic at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


She really needs to start throwing some major punches.

Donnie is just flailing. She's rope-a-doping.
posted by Talez at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Live-chatting with an overseas friend who is not big into US politics, but is watching the debate too because it's been hyped all over, I guess.

Her summary so far is that "That woman looks like the most fake liar I have seen on TV since George Bush, but that man is some kind of completely crazy clown, so I'm glad I don't have to choose!"

(In case you're wondering what an untainted view might look like.)
posted by rokusan at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


@JohnFPfaff

Prob being killed by refugee: 1 in 3.6B

Prob of being shot to death by a TODDLER: 1 in 13.7M
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


And so we get to hear what Hillary has been doing overthe last 30 years. Thanks Trump, I guess?
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"She's all talk and no action." Trumps mirror drink
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


HOW ARE PEOPLE CHEERING FOR HIM?! I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


You have to be able to get along with people. Burn.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


because your republican friends won't let her!

Last I heard, he doesn't have republican friends
posted by IndigoJones at 7:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I wish Bernie's social media person would get on it and tweet "take that name out of your mouth"
posted by Countess Elena at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


They never needed convincing, the more he appeals to them the less he appeals to normal people

...I can't convince myself that the "undecideds" are normal people.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Why didn't I change it? Because I was a senator under a Republican president. We have something called a presidential veto in this country."

Now she's talking about what she's done. What's he done? The Apprentice, some failed casinos, and his name on a bunch of shitty products and gaudy buildings.
posted by Superplin at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Refugees. Good. But also, there is going to be some racist shit happening for the next few minutes.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like Trump just majorly set her up to go through a list of her own accomplishments. She's got the last word, and it ain't a salad: it's a burger from the Heart Attack Grill.

Yes, I'm comparing her accomplishments with food. That's where we are in this election. Policies : food.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am actually shaking. That man evokes such anger and disgust in me that I am physically shuddering.
posted by lydhre at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


It doesn't even matter if he "wins" this debate by the Frank Luntz metrics, he's down big even before Friday, the last 48 hours half the party disavowed him. He needs to pull a giant fucking Zombie Reagan in an Easter Bunny costume out of his ass to change the narrative, much less reverse the polls, and squeaking out a "win" where Hilary just played defense is not going to do that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Again, trump is interrupting to ask why she didn't single handedly change tax code. Hillary is explaining all of her public service work in the last 30 years. She's coming off strong to us,, I don't know how it's going to play with undecided. Trump tried to rerespond to her response, moderator shut it down. Moving to Aleppo question.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald just pacing, not even thinking or taking notes, just pacing back and forth with a dour face.

... and pacing and pacing and now holding onto the back of his chair.

And back to pacing.
posted by porpoise at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's completely obsessed with getting the last word on everything.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


For anyone who can't bear to watch: She is doing great. The beginning was rocky, and Trump is doubling down on asshole-ness which is cringe-inducing. But she is staying cool and talking policy while he engages in his same-old conspiracy jerk-off-a-thon.
posted by windbox at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [34 favorites]



Wasn't she first lady of Arkansas 30 years ago? How was she supposed to fix the tax code back then?

You beat me to it. I never knew the first lady of Arkansas had such a monumental role in tax policy.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


After being told by Martha Radditz that they need to move on and he can't reply, he walks away in a huff LITERALLY POUTING so I'd say maybe it's a tie.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Raddatz: "Mr. Trump, we're going to move on."

Somebody cut the man's mic. Please.
posted by Lexica at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton's comments about Lincoln sounded like a prevarication. On the other hand, Trump couldn't recall basic civics lessons taught about Presidents in second-grade American public schools. She should be able to do better with the time left, I hope, because this is getting a little embarrassing.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016


"Why didn't you do anything about that as a Senator?"

Because a US Senator is literally ONE PERCENT of a governing body that has to decide things by majority?
posted by Rykey at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Last I heard, he doesn't have republican friends

he does - it's just hard to see them with the hoods on
posted by pyramid termite at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [41 favorites]


Trump again stamping his feet and having a tantrum because the meany moderators aren't being fair, this time because they wouldn't let him respond to Clinton's response to Trump's response to...wait how many levels deep has this been?
posted by Room 101 at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


The problem is Trump doesn't need to land a crushing win, he just needs to not completely lose as everyone expected him to going in. And frankly, he's succeeding. Clinton just isn't staggering him much.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald is making the loser L with his hand in response to Hillary listing her legislative and executive accomplishments.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wish he had gotten to answer on Syria first because now he can piggyback on her facts.
posted by tetsuo at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Come on, Hilary, ask him whether or not he got his excellent degree in law from Trump University

Come onnnnnnnnnn
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


He gets distracted so easily. Whenever there's an opening any rational person would use to attack her actual weak points, he ignores it. Instead of challenging the "I have public views and private views" thing, he zooms right over to SHINY THING RUSSIA SHINY TAXES.

Just mind-bogglingly bad tactics.
posted by rokusan at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I didn't mean to drink this much on a work night. :(
posted by goHermGO at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


What are all those gestures he's making to the audience? Lots of pointing. It's happened a few times now.
posted by Superplin at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


She's talking syria, and he's just thinking Brietbart, brietbart, brietbart, what would brietbart say?
posted by valkane at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The "rigged" rhetoric is going to be pushed insanely hard by Trump after his experience with these moderators, I think.
posted by erratic meatsack at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I like that he's always interrupting her. And then saying he respects people.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yall this is going fine chill out
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


How can anyone not think he is a crazy person?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Oh, L for loser. That is actually slightly less terrifying for a presidential candidate to do than the fingergun I interpreted that as.
posted by ckape at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


(In case you're wondering what an untainted view might look like.)

Unless this person has literally never heard of Hillary Clinton before tonight, I wouldn't call that view of her untainted.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


She needs to hit him with his failures. And hard. This is not the time to take the high ground, she's not in the White House yet.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


The problem is Trump doesn't need to having a crushing win, he just needs to not completely lose as everyone expected him to going in. And frankly, he's succeeding. Clinton just isn't staggering him much.

That was the expectation for the first debate. After that and the week of October surprises, he needed to do better. Especially for the week of October surprises to come.
posted by asteria at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump needs a crushing win to attempt to avert the downward spiral that he's currently in because of the released tape.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


This man improves his modern-day Mussolini impression every day. He has the physicality down.
posted by RedEmma at 7:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


It is very interesting - when Clinton goes into substance, she goes full wonk, with detailed policy positions. She *knows* this stuff. While Trump stares off into space and paces...
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "Russia is new in terms of nuclear."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


What a fucking piece of shit this man is. Sorry. But he is.
posted by valkane at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He is literally proposing expanding our nuclear weapons program right now.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


new in terms of nuclear? Russia? Did I hear that right?!
posted by futz at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump: "Russia is going crazy with their nuclear program".

?????
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please Mr Trump, tell us the specifics of the military and political situation in Syria.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016


Man I can't not hear Alec Baldwin when he talks now.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


The problem is Trump doesn't need to having a crushing win, he just needs to not completely lose as everyone expected him to going in. And frankly, he's succeeding. Clinton just isn't staggering him much.
Yeah, no. That is completely not the dynamics of the race right now. He needed to change the narrative from "the Trump campaign is bleeding out on the sidewalk," and it doesn't sound like this is going to do it. The media spin tomorrow will be about the cruel, desperate stunt with Bill Clinton's accusers and how Clinton didn't seem especially fazed by it. Unless there's some sort of earth-shaking October surprise, the Trump campaign will continue to bleed out.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


"Russia is new, we are old and tired in terms of nuclear?" Have we tried acid-washing our plutonium?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


> "Russia is new in terms of nuclear."

I couldn't believe I heard that!
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


"We're arming people. They wind up being worse than the people."
posted by medusa at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Russia is new in terms of nuclear." Apparently he missed that whole "on a knife's edge of blowing up the world for 40+ years" thing.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Can someone let him know that the Soviet Union was succeeded by Russia?
posted by Talez at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


My uterus is physically hurting right now, as if to remind me not to bring children into the world until this man is gone.
posted by corb at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [62 favorites]


A little-known fact about the United States Constitution is that the junior Senator from New York single-handedly controls the tax code.

Alexander Hamilton snuck this in along with the alternate eligibility clause for the Presidency.
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [95 favorites]


Our antenna isn't great so every few minutes Trump turns into a gibbering mass of pixels. "He looks so much better that way! Even the tv itself doesn't want to hear this fuckweasel." - my husband.
posted by skycrashesdown at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


*Clinton pauses her listening to make a note on a notepad*

I would give anything to read her notepad right now
posted by workerant at 7:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Any time we take rebels we end up arming people."

Um, yes?
posted by winna at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton campaign says it has two more earthshaking October surprises.
posted by hleehowon at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


trump brings mic to mouth
hillary speaks
trump listens
he opens his mouth
spiders pour out
everyone screams
because spiders
snakes pour out
ew snakes
also screams
his words pour out
nobody knows what is going on
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [52 favorites]


"Mr Trump, let me repeat the question"

Bat flip
posted by mhz at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


I'm now watching on mute and reading this thread and a liveblog, and I don't understand why people are saying she isn't doing well or pulling him down. She doesn't need to, he doesn't seem to be making sense. He's meandering and told off how many times for not answering? From the screen she looks calm, with a sometimes stained patience, he looks... something. What did you want her to do, stick a foot out to trip him? Tackle him?
posted by seyirci at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump talks, Hillary fills out her bingo card.
posted by erisfree at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Mr. Trump. I want to remind you about the question."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh no, she's losing it. She's like, trying not to double over laughing. HAHAHAH
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He didn't answer the question. Why give him more time?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016


"Let me remind you what your running mate said."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Raddatz: "Let me repeat the question."
Audience: laughter.
posted by medusa at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Listening to him is like trying to type a 120 character formula in an Excel cell. No fucking way can I figure out how to match the parens.
posted by klarck at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [57 favorites]


So Trump is pro-Assad. Wow
posted by Flashman at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


MR TRUMP LET ME REPEAT THE QUESTION. Digging the moderators tonight.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


PENCE FIRED
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence is so out.

"He and I haven't spoken, and I disagree."
posted by mhz at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [61 favorites]


He just said "Russia is new in terms of nuclear. We're old in terms of nuclear." I guess a generous interpretation is that Russia is new to anti-nuclear proliferation diplomacy???? But I. I'm pretty sure he also doesn't know what the Cold War was, so like. Who knows.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: "Russia is new... in terms of nuclear. We are old and tired... in terms of nuclear."

I guess, on the technicality that a chunk of their nuclear program only exists due to spying on the U.S. program, so it's like a half-year younger.
posted by at by at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


You disagree with your running mate...
posted by leotrotsky at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donnie is not going to be happy at all after this debate. Raddatz is eviscerating him on this.
posted by Talez at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump just publicly disagreed with his own running mate. On live national television. In front of tens of millions.
posted by Justinian at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [37 favorites]


"I hate my VP" pretty much.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump seems to have lost Pence's cell phone number.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


When Trump spoke about how our nuclear arsenal was weak in comparison to Russia's, I just had a major Cold War flashback.

I have not had nightmares about the Cold War since 1996, and if I have them tonight I will punch Trump in the face.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump disagrees with Pence's statement on Syria!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


All hail Martha Raddatz.

"You disagree with your running mate?"
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [46 favorites]


"I haven't spoken with my running mate and I disagree!!" Maybe you should talk about Syria?
posted by chris24 at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Raddatz: Your running mate has a different stance on Syria: [describes]

Trump: Well, we haven't spoken, so...
posted by Rhaomi at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


DONALD TEUMP JUSTBSAID THAT HE DISAGREES WITH HIS RUNNING MATE
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Pence wasn't out the door already, surely Trump disagreeing with him in the middle of the debate will do something about that.
posted by zachlipton at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump on Aleppo: He [Pence] and I haven't spoken and I disagree.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mods reading Pence's statement on ISIS to Trump.

Trump "I haven't spoken to him and I disagree"

!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I don't believe Obama would be listening to you, now"
This is the second time he's alluded to some kind of (fake, obvs) bad blood with the Obamas. Early on he mentioned videos from the 2008 primaries. I don't get the story here. Aren't the Republicans arguing that one reason Clinton would be so terrible is that it would be a third term?

And now OMG he is saying that he doesn't like Assad but Russia is doing it right. What is this
posted by Superplin at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sure, I came here tonight having not spoken to my running mate about the things he said at a debate a week ago. That's a healthy team.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


See also: Gore v. Bush debates.

Except Gore hadn't been unendorsed by large portions of the elected Democratic Party.

Trump's got 40% of the vote nailed down. He's apparently nailing that 40% down even further. Who's he converting here? Let's forget about the bullshitty 'undecideds' who will make up their minds based upon what they have for breakfast on November 8th.
posted by holgate at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Raddatz: Mr. Trump, let me remind you of the question.
audience: *laughter*
posted by Lexica at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump re Pence: "He and I haven't spoken..."
posted by Westringia F. at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait. Has it been "big league" all along?

Yes, though since it became a thing he now sometimes deliberately uses "bigly" in his tweets. I guess he thinks we find it endearing?
posted by rokusan at 7:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


BYE PENCE
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is probably blocking Trump's calls now, to be honest.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Honestly, they should just let him talk the rest of the night. He just digs himself in more and more and more.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Syria is no longer Syria, it's Russia."
posted by winna at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


As a PSA: the Vox bingo cards are interactive!
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think he's defending Assad. Really? Yep, sure enough...contradicting Pence...abandoning Alleppo...wow.
posted by TreeRooster at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016


'What will happen if Aleppo fails?'
'It's basically fallen.'

Wha?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is amazing. I would not be surprised at all if Pence drops out tomorrow. I've never seen anything like this.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


And 1:10 in and he's gone full goofball.
posted by tetsuo at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh, hey Trump, please to throw your running mate under the bus. I mean, turn about is fair play. (Re "I aren't talked to Pence about Syria, t I disagree with him.")
posted by instamatic at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016


Martha is EXPLAINING FOREIGN POLICY TO DONALD TRUMP.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [114 favorites]


Trump putting the mic up to his little arsehole of a mouth every time he thunks something that he wants to say.

This isn't reality TV, done, the moderators aren't going to let you cut in.

In a sane world. But, wow, that's apparently a pretty effective Pavlovian response to the moderators. Don't know if speaking over the mods when they concede or whether to burn some time would be more effective.

Mods sick and tired of Donnie not answering the question. HRC letting not-impressed/bored slip through, instead of the "smile through this" schtick.
posted by porpoise at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Moderator needs to take it back a notch, though. She's practically interviewing Donald right now, asking him followups in the middle of his response to the voter question.
posted by Room 101 at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


And now Trump is flatly disagreeing with his running mate. He's a mess, but Clinton is relying too much on attack lines and not enough on empathetically framed policy statements.
posted by kewb at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Should Raddatz be arguing with Trump? That wasn't a fact check, it was an argument Clinton should be making.
posted by Justinian at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


He doesn't know anything about Russia, except they've gone crazy with their nuclear program? And also somethingsomething Syria Mosul 200 generals endorsed me.
posted by rtha at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016


"How stupid is our country" Deplorables indeed.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Early postmortem: Donnie is all over the place, probably is on coke. Threatening Hillary with prosecution if he wins is the nutgraph. That is like what that nutjob in the Phillipines is doing.
posted by vrakatar at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump basically needs to get Hillary to admit to sending guns to Al Queda and ISIS to recover at this point.

Yes Clinton isn't going in for the kill because quite frankly she doesn't need to. Trump has already fucked himself over.
posted by vuron at 7:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is Trump actually portraying the carnage in Syria as Assad's war against Isis?

Apart from repeating "Clinton...disaster," Trump is completely incoherent.
posted by Gelatin at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh my god Martha Raddatz thinks he's a dumbshit. It's hilariously obvious.
posted by yasaman at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


"Honestly, my running mate is a doofus."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump re Pence: "He and I haven't spoken..."
The fact-checkers are going to rate that one true, though.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Clinton campaign says it has two more earthshaking October surprises.

Does that mean the first one was theirs?
posted by corb at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, now Martha Raddatz is debating against Donald?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Raddatz is now debating Trump. This is a shitshow. Hillary is just letting him go all stupid.
posted by Talez at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I think Aleppo has fallen." Yep, he's proven his potential for working the global stage. Yep.
posted by at by at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Moderation - it's a thing!
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I love how she keeps pushing for specifics and he just vomits verbiage.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's totally incoherent.
posted by medusa at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump has the same knowledge of military strategy that I gained from playing Risk a few times ten years ago.
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Clinton just watching as Trump burns.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I pretty much worship Martha Radditz rn
posted by triggerfinger at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


But this is where Donald mansplains Hillary's job to her. Because he doesn't know anything about Russia but is an expert on Middle East policy.
posted by rtha at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think that the difference between the low expectations before and now is that before, he had the whole GOP behind him.

Now, he has Michael Steele playing drinking games with his sniffles. In August, he was defending the nomination.

He needs to do so, so much more than not literally shit himself onstage. A lot has changed in the past couple days.
posted by Sequence at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Love these moderators tonight. Exasperated and not taking any shit.
posted by sweetmarie at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


All week is going to be him blowing up on Raddatz now. It's going to be so ugly.
posted by zachlipton at 7:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Moderator: "Tell me what your strategy is."
Room, here: *laughing so hard we scared the dog*
posted by Torosaurus at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump is advocating political assassination. Martha asks in a tone of extreme skepticism "tell me about your strategy."
posted by winna at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump going on about "doing things secretly," Hillary remembering the night OBL was killed.
posted by kewb at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Syria is no longer Syria, it's Russia."

That's another awfully sharp sound bite. Let's hope he's wrong.
posted by rokusan at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Remember when Russia and Iran killed Osama Bin Laden after the US screwed up by blabbing their plans to do so all over the place? Oh wait...
posted by SisterHavana at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Raddatz: "Secretary Clinton can you give a real answer as the adult in the room?" [fake]
posted by Talez at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


So much for a town hall format. When was the last audience question, again?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


And now Trump is debating Martha Raddatz while Clinton looks on with a "can you believe this?!" expression.
posted by Gelatin at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I haven't spoken to [Pence]. I disagree with him [on Syria]." Raddatz then hammered him on Aleppo, asking him, "What will happen if Aleppo falls?" He finally said, "It basically has fallen." He pretty clearly doesn't know who controls Aleppo. God bless Raddatz for making that clear.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


he does not have a fucking clue as to what is going on in syria and iraq
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Moderator needs to take it back a notch, though. She's practically interviewing Donald right now, asking him followups in the middle of his response to the voter question.

Everyone in that room deserves a chance to do that to him, TBH

It lets HRC supercharge in the meantime
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


What was the over-under on the use of the word "disaster"?
posted by fuse theorem at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump seems to be dry humping his only remaining brain cell.
posted by futz at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


It was linked in the other thread, but Kellyanne tweeted a picture of Trump on his plane today and she said he was on the phone with Pence in the picture. So, uh, he hasn't talked to him.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Well looks like sometime since the last debate somebody told him that General MacArthur is dead.
posted by ckape at 7:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


So he's basically shooting shit over a beer. She needs to talk about her ACTUAL strategy for anti-ISIS actions in Libya and Europe. She has this.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's another awfully sharp sound bite. Let's hope he's wrong.

if he can find either country on a map on which literally every other country on earth is pre-labeled i will cook my own motherfucking leg and serve it to hannibal lecter
posted by poffin boffin at 7:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Hillary is giving Turkey the middle finger in this debate talking about arming the Kurds.
posted by Talez at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Now he's losing it
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016


@wkamaubell
"Listen to this again. The answer is in the question." - Martha Raddatz going 3rd grade teacher on @realDonaldTrump #debate
posted by triggerfinger at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


He got like 5 minutes and he flipped out over her getting a minute?
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


What kind of question was that? The audience questions are dumb, non-specific platitudes.
posted by Justinian at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Watching with my 8 year old beside me, he's taking notes. He says to me, "I feel bad for Donald Trump because he cannot answer a question." (during the back and forth with Raddatz)
posted by danielleh at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


he opens his mouth
spiders pour out

I would very much prefer this over the things actually coming out of his mouth.
posted by Archelaus at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


Trump whining about moderators being biased again.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


What a fucking piece of shit this man is. Sorry. But he is.

There's no reason to apologize for that. He's a total piece of shit.
posted by octothorpe at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Sorry, what does "We'll give economics to people" mean? I have this vision of him passing out college textbooks...
posted by skycrashesdown at 7:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


well, hillary's got a plan - i really think we should probably walk away from this mess, but at least she knows something
posted by pyramid termite at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016


Man, this debate of Hillary against the CNN.com comments section is really interesting. When does Trump come on?
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


He complains after every question. He is absolutely framing this as a victim.
posted by Superplin at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm pretty sure the sniffing is him being out of breath... just standing there... talk about stamina.

If you remember, Trump's Mirror says that all of Donnie's focus on H's health is likely because he himself is concerned about being attacked on health or stamina issues.

So maybe we are seeing some of this surfacing. As Donnie himself would say, who knows?
posted by flug at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


i am the peeple
give me
teh economics
all of them
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Bill fucking Kristol: The Republican nominee is effectively pro-Russia, pro-Assad and pro-Iran.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


Can you be a devoted President for all the people? - worst debate question ever, or most terrible debate question ever?
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Question is "Can you be a devoted president to all of the people? " what the hell kind of softball is that? Couldnt have tagged racial harmony on that?
posted by sweetmarie at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "I will be a president that gives...economics to people".

What?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


What the heck kind of question was that?

"Can you be a devoted president to all of the people in America?"

That passed the screen? What were the questions they rejected?
posted by rokusan at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


Trump has been saying "if I'm President", Clinton has said "when I'm President". Words matter.
posted by peppermind at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Raddatz came back sharp with "you had MANY answers" to Trump and Anderson intervened to moderate the tone.
posted by winna at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Will you be president for all people?

TPP! Clinton lied!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Would you represent all Americans?" - African-American audience member.

"Blah blah NAFTA worst ever." - Trump.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I swear I've heard high school class president speeches more coherent than Trump's stream of consciousness.
posted by Room 101 at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I love the blacks!"
posted by valkane at 7:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean it's, you know it's, I've been saying
posted by ian1977 at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: "I will give economics to people."

What does that even mean?
posted by dazed_one at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Something about the gold standard?
posted by winna at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary is giving Turkey the middle finger in this debate talking about arming the Kurds.

There's a comprehensible strategic shift there that might be wrong, but it's a concrete idea at least.
posted by fatbird at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's answering the question "can you be president to all of our people" with TPP and NAFTA.
What?
posted by Superplin at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, "what do you have to lose" again.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016


'You go into the inner cities and you see.'
posted by box at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016


That's untrue, shit is very useful.
posted by contraption at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


What was that about osmosis?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dang, he can't say Latino without following up with Hispanic. See! See! Iearned something.
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump: "The inner cities are 45% poverty. Education is a disaster. Jobs are essentially nonexistent".

Trump has been playing too much Fallout. He can't tell the difference anymore.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


"also known as the Hispanics"
posted by Flashman at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Where is the GOP with a hook cane to pull Orange off the stage?
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Um. Is Trump going on about inner cities because a black man asked a question?
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [80 favorites]


C-SPAN split panel; weird thing where Don's waving right hand is in HRC's frame and it's like he's slapping her over and over again.

Just happened again. And it keeps going on?
posted by porpoise at 7:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She calls a large group of our people deplorable."

WHAT YOU LITERALLY JUST CALLED THE ENTIRE COUNTRY STUPID LIKE NINETY SECONDS AGO
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


Donnie sure likes to say disaster.
posted by vrakatar at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Charlamagne Tha God @cthagod: I kind of feel sorry for Hillary. This is like Lebron having to prove he's a good player by playing Peter Griffin in a game of one on one.
posted by joedan at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Trump said "what do you have to lose, it can't get any worse."

Oh yes, yes it can.
posted by winna at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


So much for a town hall format. When was the last audience question, again?

Yes. I don't mind the "please answer the question" attempts to keep them on point, but the followups and followups that veer ten miles and twenty minutes away from the original audience question?

That's undermining the format a lot.
posted by rokusan at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016


He mentions the inner city cause the guy asking the question is African-American. Because in his mind, that's where African-Americans live. Ugh.
posted by tuesdayschild at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


"Donald talks a lot about the 30 years I've been in service. I'm proud of that."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


If you're drinking everytime he sniffs, you should probably call an ambulance
posted by Torosaurus at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Moderator: What will you do in this situation?

Trump: Everything is terrible.

Mod: Yes but what would you do?

Trump: EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE!
posted by dazed_one at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


TRUMP LIVES IN THE INNER CITY.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


What do you have to lose? Elect Donald if you want to find out.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


WHAT WITH THE INNER CITIES
YOU LIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF A CITY
THE WHITE HOUSE IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A CITY
YOU WANT TO GO THERE
posted by zennie at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


"Can you be a devoted president to all of the people in America?"

The fiendish beauty of that very vague and open-ended question is that it caused Trump to belly up to the all-you-can-eat word salad bar.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [35 favorites]


One of the headlines on msn.com is "Trump Informs Clinton That He Will Try to Have Her Jailed".
posted by Slothrup at 7:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


"also known as the Hispanics"

He's so proud of that new thing he learned.
posted by rokusan at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


If lack of jobs is an issue and he's such a great business man why has he not been heading up a mass job creation programme before *stumbling* into politics.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016


10:17
TIME FOR THE TRAP
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is anything in the United States not the worst disaster ever?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's nailing this answer - connecting in a way Donald can't.
posted by Emmy Noether at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary bringing it full circle referencing the first question asked!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wow, good save, Hillary. I thought you had totally forgotten what his question was until you pulled the questioner's word "devotion" back into it.
posted by Room 101 at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Can I say I love Hillary's outfit and I am also jazzed that she's not wearing a flag pin. It's high time someone broke that stupid chain.
posted by Miko at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


I am actually pretty impressed with the mods this time around. I think it must take two mods to keep Trump on track. They are really following up well tonight.
posted by instamatic at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


'Teachers and parents are calling it the Trump effect.'
posted by box at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


What was that about osmosis?

That's how he's going to learn what he needs to know, apparently
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Children listen to what's being said, to go back to the very, very first question."

Translation: Hillary Clinton pays attention.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


now completely untethered from reality trump reaveals himself as a pile of screaming void crabs, spilling onto the stage in a flood of chaos - @ChuckTingle
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


Please please please say

"at this point, I think about 90% of the remaining" are deplorable
posted by mhz at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wish she'd just ask him a basic geography or civics question. What is the capital if Syria? How many branches of government are there? What does NATO stand for?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Nice answer to this insane question.
posted by dilaudid at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016


Can't wait to hear donald's comment on Ethiopia.
posted by futz at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016


She's bringing up the Trump Effect among children. YES.
posted by Superplin at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Major rumors swirling in real time, right now that @mike_pence has asked 2 be removed from the Presidential ticket. Historic Wow. #debate (real tweet, journalist at the Atlantic)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [38 favorites]


It lets HRC supercharge in the meantime

surely her limit break meter is full now
posted by murphy slaw at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump has been playing too much Fallout. He can't tell the difference anymore.

Everyone likes the Brotherhood for some reason. Maybe it's the fancy armor or the big talk or all the military trumpetry.

But they smell like fascists to me.
posted by rokusan at 7:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton walking back the 'deplorables' thing: "My argument is not with his supporters, it's with him and the divise campaign he has run".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hell of a good response to the"deplorables" question. See, Donald, that's how you pivot.
posted by kewb at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I am really disapppointed that HRC didn't hit back that all African Americans don't all live in wartorn inner cities...

That said, HRC is showing ability to recall questions from the start of the debate, which I feel is throwing shade at Trump's inability to even stay on track for 2 minutes.
posted by TwoStride at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Again with the incorrect murder stats.
posted by tetsuo at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"She has tremendous hatred in her heart." Trump's mirror, drink.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Trump: "We have a divided country... look at the inner cities."

What?
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Another big old smile, I like that. But I wish she had gone in on deplorables
posted by Countess Elena at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016


"She has tremendous hate in her heart."

The Trump Mirror, ladies and gentlemen!

Edit: jinx!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"If a leader doesn't have [discipline]…"

Ha ha! They brought up his sex tape tweets.
posted by mhz at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"There was not take a look at a sex tape"
posted by sweetmarie at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


She has tremendous hate in her heart? WTF...coming from him.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


@GroverNorquist:
OK.
It has now been one full hour.
Not one comment on Obama/HIllary's FDA war on Americans who vape. They threaten Prohibition.
Focus.

It's like they're not even trying for the reddit votes.
posted by bibliowench at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


I'm getting increasingly fed up with the way they both keep talking over the moderators saying "your time is up".

"She has hatred in her heart." WHAAAAAAAT.
posted by Lexica at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


She needs to bust out some stats. Why will she not show him up?
posted by freya_lamb at 7:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: literally awake at three in the morning
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"This country cannot take another forty years of Barack Obama."
posted by winna at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016


OMG, Donald still thinks that the problem with his 3 AM tweet was that he was sending it at 3 AM!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


"I won't even mention that," he mentioned
posted by Red Loop at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


Holy shit Pence sticking the knife in deep if that's accurate
posted by vuron at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


In Trump's defense, "Sex Tape Benghazi" would make for an excellent band name.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Benghazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzi again.
posted by futz at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"She has tremendous hatred in her heart..."

...said the rapist about the Sunday School teacher.
posted by vverse23 at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [68 favorites]


Trump: "We have a divided nation. We have a very divided nation... she has tremendous hate in her heart."
posted by at by at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016


He says Machado "isn't a girl scout."

I'm a girl scout (adult assistant troop leader).

GIRL SCOUTS AGAINST TRUMP!
posted by jeoc at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


Carrie Fisher confirms what we all knew: Donald is on coke tonight.

@carrieffisher tell me something about that sniffle...coke head or no?

@reimamy I'm an expert & ABSOLUTELY
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [90 favorites]


In the end he's just so weird.
posted by tetsuo at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Tweeting happens to be a modern form of communication."
posted by medusa at 7:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why does he keep namedropping Blumenthal? Most people have no idea what he's referring to.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wow. Just wow. Deflecting a question about why you're tweeting about sex tapes in the middle of the night by attacking Clinton for (apparently?) not answering a phone during Benghazi.
posted by Room 101 at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


k he literally just said he didn't say anything about a sex tape

he's a Bloom County punchline come to life to threaten us
posted by skycrashesdown at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Did he just pivot from "check out sex tape" (which he denied) to Benghazi?
posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump on social media: "It's an effective form of communication and I'm not unproud of it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


She needs to bust out some stats. Why will she not show him up?

Because Trump is busy having a tantrum in real time on national TV. When your opponent is self-destructing you look like the adult in the room and you shut the hell up while they're doing it.
posted by Talez at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Benghazi! That's bingo!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Major rumors swirling in real time, right now that @mike_pence has asked 2 be removed from the Presidential ticket. Historic Wow. #debate (real tweet, journalist at the Atlantic)

Chris Christie: "YES, My Dark voodoo spells have finally come to fruition!"
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "We have an increase in murder...the biggest increase in 45 years".

This is a total lie. The murder rate is at a 51 year low.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


"I'm not unproud of it."

I am so unproud of this nation right now.
posted by rokusan at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


Trump is "not un-proud" of tweeting.
posted by winna at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Pence is off, who's next? Maybe somebody should call Hannity.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ugh. He's talking about Ambassador Stevens in Benghazi. I follow someone on Twitter (@lollardfish) who's actually related to Stevens, and his attitude toward Trump on this matter is pretty much "take his name out of your mouth forever".
posted by Lexica at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mansplaining Twitter now. Where are my evens?
posted by emelenjr at 7:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just dropping in to say I cheered out loud when Martha stepped up to Trump on his rambling bullshit on military strategy. I think she's really losing her patience, but I don't blame her one bit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's not unproud of it? I have to be wrong on that one.
posted by futz at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh lord, please don't take credit for Bill Clinton stumbling into the Internet boom. Icky.

He got lucky and he's not running, remember?
posted by rokusan at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nice discipline with the moderator there, Trump.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump fixated on his follower numbers. Just now, dropped how he has 25M followers on twitter and facebook. Earlier, mentioned how he has rallies with 25-30K attendees.
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Moderators are losing control - both candidates talking over them.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump will do wonders for Disney's buyout of Twitter. Maybe TWTR goes up a few ticks with this endorsement - if so, they'll be the only ones happy about this debate.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016


Contrary to expectations, Trump has been less unhinged in this debate than the first one.
posted by Flashman at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


They need to be able to cut the mics.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


G'day, mate.
Thank you for calling Sydney's Boom 'n All
Australia's largest supplier of
fertilizer and fertilizer supplies.
If you are calling due to
vague attention to
an American Presidential Debate
.
.
.
Go fuck yourself
BEEP
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Audience question: "What would you proritize in selecting a SCOTUS justice?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Okay, I think this goes without saying, but this guy is completely lacking in internal consistency.

They ask him if he wants to apologize for the birther thing. He does not. It was right to pursue it. But Clinton should apologize for starting it.

They ask her what specific changes she'll make from Obama's policies on -- something, I have already forgotten b/c trauma. As she's answering he interjects EVERYTHING! Half an hour later he says the U.S. can't take four more years of Obama's policies.

I just. I mean. Pick a lie and commit to it. My brain is going to explode.
posted by gerstle at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Oh lord, please don't take credit for Bill Clinton stumbling into the Internet boom. Icky.

He got lucky and he's not running, remember?

The electorate doesn't care about nuance.
posted by Talez at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton bobbing up and down even before the Court question was finished, she's so excited to start on her answer.
posted by rokusan at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why does he keep namedropping Blumenthal?

Anti-Semitic dogwhistle
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [118 favorites]


I'm getting increasingly fed up with the way they both keep talking over the moderators saying "your time is up".

I'm fed up with people obsessing on this. It's normal. I don't know if you've ever moderated a panel, but only the timekeeper is really focused on the time. There has to be the 20 seconds' grace to let people finish their thoughts. It's fine. It's okay. They say it to let the speaker know the time's up, just like you might hold up your hand or show the yellow card, and they know to wrap up. It's not a huge deal. This isn't a game of Perfection. The moderators are good about moving on. Let's concentrate on what they're saying.
posted by Miko at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [78 favorites]


Why does he keep namedropping Blumenthal?

Anti-Semitic dogwhistle. Seriously.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


To be fair, Blumenthal is not exactly a great person. But it makes no sense as a non sequitur.
posted by rokusan at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016


Supreme Court justice that sticks with marriage equality!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hilarious: screencaps of Black audience members not having any of Trump (source: FB).
posted by TwoStride at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Anti-Semitic dogwhistle

Kellyanne Conway: "No he's just a big fan of The Producers and got the name wrong" [fake]
posted by Talez at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh Hillary, please mention the Trump SCOTUS appointee that de-endorsed him this weekend.
posted by klarck at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Contrary to expectations, Trump has been less unhinged in this debate than the first one.

No, just no.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


When was the last time we didn't have a Vice President in an election? 18 something
posted by mrzarquon at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Why does he keep namedropping Blumenthal?


Because he's legitimately kind of a prickly figure, I think.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Mr. Trump, why were you tweeting about sex tapes at 5 in the morning?"
Trump: "Benghazi!"

His body language and confrontational, red-faced fury is making me physically uncomfortable. I don't understand any woman who could imagine themselves debating him and not feel uncomfortable, that it would actually feel unsafe.
posted by areaperson at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


The contrast between their demeanor, presentation, and coherency is astounding. Trump visibly can't control himself- he quite literally can't restrain himself from speaking for more than a few seconds after he hears something he doesn't like, so for sure let's give him the keys to the Minutemen- or form a coherent thought. Clinton would win this even if she was barely competent, but she still brought her biggest, baddest game. I really love her right now.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I also want a supreme court that doesn't side with moneyed interest.
posted by valkane at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@GroverNorquist:
OK.
It has now been one full hour.
Not one comment on Obama/HIllary's FDA war on Americans who vape. They threaten Prohibition.
Focus.

It's like they're not even trying for the reddit votes.

The FDA rules on e-cigs are actually pretty shitty and not helping anyone, and not particularly evidence-based, but I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that's a low enough priority policy-wise that it isn't even on Obama's plate, let alone Hillary's.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Her answers are too long and convoluted. Her point is usually only half-made when they cut her off for time.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump: I'm looking to appoint judges in the mold of Scalia.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Scalia died recently? EIGHT MONTHS AGO YOU HUMAN CHEETO.
posted by Talez at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


@BayoumiMoustafa
I'm a Muslim, and I would like to report a crazy man threatening a woman on a stage in Missouri. #debate
posted by chris24 at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [102 favorites]


Paul Ryan Sitting Among Undecided Voters At Town Hall Debate
posted by triggerfinger at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Has Trump mentioned someone by name that isn't Jewish? I think I asked this last time, and it's disgusting to have to do it again.
posted by mollweide at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "I am looking to appoint judges in the mold of Justice Scalia".

*vomit*
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


SUPREME COURT NOMINEES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE "BEAUTIFULLY REVIEWED" YOU STUPID MANBABY
posted by TwoStride at 7:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


Bingo? More like Wordwang
posted by humanfont at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


"Justice Scalia, a great judge, died recently."

FALSE: He was terrible and it was forever ago but the Senate refuses to do its job.
posted by ckape at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [50 favorites]


...does he know how many people are on the Supreme court?
posted by Torosaurus at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Are judges "beautifully reviewed"? How... how does he think this works? Does he think Senate confirmations are beauty pageants?
posted by mhum at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


re: sniffing=coke --- do they not do drug testing for political office? I seriously am asking. I don't know. You have to pass a drug test to work at, like, half of retail jobs... do they not screen candidates?
posted by The otter lady at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I hope someday we get to see the notes that Clinton is taking during these debates. I have a feeling that they're full of profanity and exclamation points.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


He wants to pick justices like Scalia and has twenty of them picked out.
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016


"Why don't you put 10-20-25 million into your own campaign?"

"-Because I don't have to?"
posted by mhz at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


She was so close! She talked about not wanting a Supreme Court that will take us backwards. She should point out more strongly that Trump wants to change things by going backwards.

Then again, Trump promising more Scalias won't appeal to anyone but hardcore conservatives. He already has them, even without the Second Amendment lies; does he really not understand that he needs to go beyond his base to win?
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump talking about judges on his shortlist who are "very beautifully reviewed by just about everybody"

He can't talk about people without sounding like he's talking about a new casino.
posted by littlegreen at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Donald's got 20 Supreme Court justices "beautifully reviewed" and ready to serve.

Given his history with beauty reviews, this horrifies me in ways that I could never have imagined possible.
posted by at by at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Question on justices, Trump asking why Clinton didnt put her own money in to pay for her campaign...
posted by sweetmarie at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


My husband is having a terrible time with fall hay fever and just blew his nose loudly, then apologized for the noise.

"No, keep doing it. Trump is talking."
posted by workerant at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why does he keep namedropping Blumenthal?

the focus groups didn't respond as well to him shouting HEIL HITLER
posted by poffin boffin at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [67 favorites]


I researched Sidney Blumenthal. He was one of the witnesses dring the Lewinsky incident.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why is he talking about money for a question about SCOTUS?
posted by Gelatin at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]



If Pence is off, who's next?

Pretty sure "Hole" is next one up.
posted by drezdn at 7:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


WAR on COAL here we GO!
posted by vrakatar at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lol the dastardly EPA
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


energy

trump - "i'm going to do another bump as soon as i'm off stage!" (fake)
posted by pyramid termite at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016


The last question is a dumb one about fossil power plant job loss.
posted by winna at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016


Are these beautifully reviewed justices anything like binders of women?

Binders of justices?
posted by Otherwise at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump: "Energy is under siege by the Obama administration"

Homer Simpson: "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


For a counterpoint to MetaFilter's strong reaction to everything that gets said: I walked into the hotel where I'm staying and over to a bellhop who was watching it on the big screen. "How's it going, is it a bloodbath yet?" I asked. "Naw, just a regular debate, they're arguing back and forth," he said. Brought me back to reality. Much as I can't stand ingesting debates like this without you, MeFi, not everyone has as much context as we do. To some people, this looks like more of the same bullshit, not the end of the world.
posted by gusandrews at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Now that it's winding down, I'm doubling down on HRC's hair. There was a 3/4 side shot of HRC sidescreened with Donald's nylon weave and it was such a stark difference.

It is an extraordinarily good job by her stylist(s). They deserve a medal. She has absolutely amazing hair.
posted by porpoise at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


Can anyone parse what he's saying?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Energy companies are going to pay off the national debt?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton's last (?) answer coming up. Over/under on a Machado-style surprise?
posted by Rhaomi at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016


Did this guy in the red sweater not know he'd be on television?
posted by Flashman at 7:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


re: sniffing=coke --- do they not do drug testing for political office? I seriously am asking. I don't know. You have to pass a drug test to work at, like, half of retail jobs... do they not screen candidates?

Hell no ! Only working class people are subjected to that sort of crap.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [66 favorites]


Scalia died recently? EIGHT MONTHS AGO YOU HUMAN CHEETO

Eh, I'll give him that one, it's about how people refer to actual deaths they've experienced. Eight months is recent. That's like the only correct thing he's said.
posted by corb at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Please mention that Trump bought that Chinese steel, please please please.
posted by tetsuo at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [34 favorites]


The local solar company that I currently have engaged and are about to pay $51,000 would disagree that the EPA regulations are killing jobs.
posted by Talez at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


>Did he just check out her notes (while pacing around the stage)?

Oh, he's just checking out her SUPERSECRET SUPER-ILLEGAL CUSTOM PODIUM TELEPROMPTER - hadn't you heard about it?

FWIW when the Trumpists bring up the "rigged podium" argument again as an excuse for Trump losing this debate, you can point out the Trump was roaming all around the podium and looking it up and down himself right during the debate. So why didn't he catch her right then & there and reveal her cheating on national TV for everyone to see?

Of course, that is assuming that Trumpists are open to reason and logic, which is probably a vain hope . . .

And actually, since Trump avidly follows & believes in all the conspiracy theories himself, I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if he is actually scoping out the podium right now on the podium conspiracy in mind, in hopes of catching her red-handed with the rigged podium. Yeah, he's just about that dumb/gullible.
posted by flug at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have seen some people (mainly men) do a big sniff when they were feeling smug or trying to look confident.

Oh man, I just remembered an African American comedian doing a bit years ago about the "cool sniffle". It's hard to get across in print, but he would do a cool gangsta kind of voice and punctuate each line with a quick nasal inhale, and it was funny because it made you realize it was this weird, affected thing that guys really did when they were trying to sound cool. Could it be that Trump isn't a yuge cokehead after all, but he's doing a cool sniffle??

(Anybody who remembers who did that bit, please help me out! I tried Googling it but nothing came up.)

I just pray that no matter how badly Trump implodes, he doesn't bow out so Pence can step in. Trump says evil things in a comical way, but Pence says them in a way that too many people think sounds reasonable.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Keep mentioning swing states, donnie.
posted by vrakatar at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking as someone who is heartsick at driving through the mountains that have been flattened to get to coal, fuck the coal industries.
posted by winna at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


re: sniffing=coke --- do they not do drug testing for political office?

You're adorable, but no, those rules are only for the little people.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


you wanker, donald, our energy companies are going out of business because the price is low and the cost of extraction is too high

what an idiot
posted by pyramid termite at 7:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clean coal?!?! What about the communities affected you idiot!
posted by freya_lamb at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Drinking God-awful cheap swill. I tried to find a local watch party. No luck. Surviving this kind of a 'debate' really requires a watch - party.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016


It seems he missed the portion of the question referring to "environmentally friendly."
posted by notaninja at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Should Trump really be bringing up what people are doing to minors?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


EPA isn't putting miners out of work. Automation is and has been for 40 years.
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


"All you have to do is go to three states that I absolutely need in my column to win" [fake]
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh good, a question on energy policy to wrap up the debate.

This is such a weird thing, such a strange mélange of formal debate and... whatever the hell Donald Trump is doing. Reality TV outtakes. I dunno. It's weird.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Every time he goes on about clean coal, I want to fling turds at him. But you know, clean poop... Pristine PoopTM.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Well that was ... very interesting" —Clinton

I didn't think I could laugh during this nightmare but she got me.
posted by theredpen at 7:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Clinton talks to the people who ask the questions. I'd be curious to see how they feel about her directness vs. Trump's bloviating.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


War on Coal= Drink!
posted by sexyrobot at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whoa, where'd that steel from China thing come from?
posted by lkc at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Eh, I'll give him that one, it's about how people refer to actual deaths they've experienced.

for people who have experienced the death of a loved one, maybe. for an inexplicably animated shitstain on the yfronts of the galaxy it's just the usual stupidity.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


> Please mention that Trump bought that Chinese steel, please please please.

ARE YOU A WIZARD
posted by rtha at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [88 favorites]


He's being calm mostly. It's a good performance for him. Most of the "answers" are folding back to new and old stump speech points, but he's not screeching or anything.

Clinton is arguing that Trump does and is bad things, but it's not news. So it mostly doesn't land. She needs to talk in depth about the answer - doing that with the energy question, explaining how to move to clean/renewable without doubling down on oil.
posted by petebest at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Please mention that Trump bought that Chinese steel, please please please.
posted by tetsuo

Wish - granted.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton's last (?) answer coming up. Over/under on a Machado-style surprise?

She must have something, because she's been less prepared than I expected. Or maybe it's just harder to control the narrative in this format? Not sure.

It's really not seemed like an audience-driven debate at all. The audience just supplied the narrators with a few words to work from, like improv theatre.
posted by rokusan at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary's at her best when she's directly addressing and engaging the questioner. eg "you're in the business, right" or "you're a teacher, aren't you"
posted by klarck at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]



So his big attack Hillary on the Bill thing was pretty much a whole lot of nothing?
posted by Jalliah at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm kind of worried here guys. I think he's exceeded expectations. Not the first half hour, but after that. He's horrible and has no answers to anything, but given the exceedingly low bar that was set for him, I think he's just about met it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think trump is really chuffed with his EPA answer. He kinda did a rooster strut. poor poor pathetic cheese puff.
posted by futz at 7:33 PM on October 9, 2016


I really love how she speaks directly to the questioner and checks for understanding in her answers.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Obama has expanded pipeline infrastructure within the US to the extent that has been described in non-partisan financial press as the equivalent of ten Keystone XLs, to help move all the domestic crude oil we are extracting here to our refineries. There is no war on fossil fuels, certainly.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary is killing it with this answer on energy.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Name a positive thing that you respect in one another.
posted by sweetmarie at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


CARL BECKER FOR VP
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow, I did not see that coming. OR THAT ANSWER, DAMN
posted by Countess Elena at 7:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did this guy in the red sweater not know he'd be on television?

He has a name, you know. It's Ken Bone.
posted by chococat at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hillary's at her best when she's directly addressing and engaging the questioner. eg "you're in the business, right" or "you're a teacher, aren't you"

Seems contrived to me, but maybe my cynicism to scotch ratio is off a little.
posted by rokusan at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Name one positive thing about your opponent." Great last question after this swamp of a debate.
posted by Blue Meanie at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


HAHAHAHAHA WTF IS THIS QUESTION
posted by triggerfinger at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Q: Can you say something you respect about the opposing candidate?
Hillary: Ehhh... I respect his children!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Her answer is she respects his children...
posted by sweetmarie at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


CARL you beautiful bastard
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Don't compliment his children, they'll use it later when they run.
posted by tetsuo at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Okay, that's a genuine curveball.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016


You have to pass a drug test to work at, like, half of retail jobs... do they not screen candidates?

I pointed out in a previous thread that Trump has most of the red flags just from his personality traits that would deny a regular person a security clearance. I don't think the Founding Fathers anticipated we'd be this dumb.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Campaign denying Pence rumours, per Ashley Parker
posted by Devonian at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016


Last question: name one positive thing you see in your opponent.
posted by dazed_one at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016


Oh FFS what a bullshit last question. "Name one positive thing you respect in one another."
posted by Superplin at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is absolutely the stupidest question ever. It's what do you respect in your opponent.

Hillary said she respects his children lol.
posted by winna at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


his lizard children?
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Internet Favorite Ken Bone
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Name a positive thing that you respect in one another.

"Donald has...er...very sensible taste in shoes, I guess."
posted by Sangermaine at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


My jaw is on the floor from this question. I love it.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's a very "undecided voter" kind of question.
posted by Small Dollar at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


(they didn't anticipate the Cold War and CIA either natch)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016


Clinton's answer was the "My biggest weakness is I care too much" of this debate. The only good thing she has to say about Trump is to praise people who were raised by other people.
posted by Justinian at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


He has a name, you know. It's Ken Bone.

Okay now y'all are just messing with me, right?
posted by rokusan at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


wait you guys are kidding right

they weren't actually asked that question
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Carl is my hero!

Great answer from Hillary, bringing in family, even if they are Of The Corn.
posted by mochapickle at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Doesn't someone have a law that if a politician says they're not going to resign three times, they're about to resign?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


She really seems to be trying to draw him out on Russia

I suspect that's aimed at peeling off older Republicans who remember the Soviet Union and who must be pissed off that Russia is interfering in our election, and who may also be dissatisfied with Trump's response to Russia's actions in the Ukraine and Crimea.
posted by homunculus at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm worried that Trump, when he says what he admires about Hillary, is going to say that he admires that she stayed with Bill and that's going to open the door to mentioning his very special guests. :(
posted by mudpuppie at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016


Hillary doesn't quit.

You're goddamn right!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Frankly, that was a good answer by Trump to end it.
posted by mhz at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


He actually gave her a legit compliment.
posted by ian1977 at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


What I respect most about Donald is. .the children he has admitted to not helping to raise
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Should she have let him go last on this?
posted by freya_lamb at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton is arguing that Trump does and is bad things, but it's not news. So it mostly doesn't land. She needs to talk in depth about the answer - doing that with the energy question, explaining how to move to clean/renewable without doubling down on oil.

Again, she doesn't really need to DO anything here, except not fuck up. Trump was down decisively Thursday. Then his world exploded in his face and the Republican party was debating how to force him off the ticket THREE HOURS AGO. Clinton needs to stay alive for this debate. She needs to give competent, non-insane answers within the bounds of normal political discourse. She needs to not fall for his Bill's past baiting. She's done that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump's answer on the last question was probably the most honest thing he's ever said.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


Headline

TRUMP ON CLINTON: "SHE'S A FIGHTER"
posted by zennie at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Q: Would either of you name one positive thing that you respect about the other?

HRC: I respect his children they are incredibly able and devoted. I don't agree with anything else he says or does, but I do respect that. I believe that this election has become so conflict-oriented, so intense, because there's a lot at stake. We're going to be choosing a president that's going to set policy for 4-8 years and there's a lot at stake. That's why I've tried to put forward specific policies and plans, I hope people will check on that for themselves.

TRUMP: I consider the comment about my children as a compliment, I will say this about HIllary, she doesn't quit and she doesn't give up, and I respect that. I disagree with much of what she's fighting for, but she does fight hard and she doesn't give up and I consider that to be a very good trait

END OF DEBATE
posted by petebest at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [37 favorites]


His "Hillary isn't a quitter" answer is total Trump's Mirror once again, given the giant elephant in the room.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


trump endorses clinton
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


Holy shit he answered a question. Directly. Must be exhausted.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is it just me or did he just make the case for HRC's 2016 win? This election, man.
posted by mynameisluka at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


I keep seeing that elephant's tail so I guess I disagree with Hillary .
posted by firstdrop at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Now that it's winding down, I'm doubling down on HRC's hair. There was a 3/4 side shot of HRC sidescreened with Donald's nylon weave and it was such a stark difference.

It is an extraordinarily good job by her stylist(s). They deserve a medal. She has absolutely amazing hair.

I've always wondered why someone like Trump, who presumably have access to the very best stylists and makeup artists. I got a hint to the answer in one of my favorite romance novels. This is something I wrote to friends in an email a couple days ago:

I have always wondered how a public figure of his stature can look so bad. I’ve observed this phenomenon in others as well. Surely he has access to the best stylists, the people who are most expert in hair and skin hair, in styling and coloring. Why can they not make him look better?

I think I have a hint of the answer, and I got it from a romance novel by my fave, KJ Charles. In one of her books, A Gentleman’s Position, a valet named David Cyprian acts as a “fixer” for his boss and his boss’s friends, a bunch of Victorian men who love men. An ill-advised, sexually explicit letter has fallen into the hands of a bad guy, who is threatening the men involved with exposure. They turn to Cyprian for help, and he starts mulling the problem over.

“Have you ever noticed,” he says, “that Lord Maltravers’ collars are always just a bit too tight, and too tall to be flattering?” The gentlemen are all like, “What could that possibly have to do with anything?”

Cyprian says, “It tells you that his valet doesn’t like him, and that he can’t be bothered to listen to the advice of men who know better than he does.”

This is insightful (and Cyprian’s understanding of Lord M’s character does indeed contribute a great deal to getting the fellows out of the jam they’re in).

And can’t you just see it applying to Trump? This is a man who has said that he wouldn’t need advisors because he’s a pretty smart guy. So it’s entirely possible that he overrides any good advice he gets on the subject because he sees himself only through his own very fond eyes.

But I also realize that my question, “Why can’t the best stylists money can buy make this man look good?” assumes that they want him to look good. But if they don’t like him, would that necessarily be their goal? How hard would they try to override his bad decisions?

You can learn a lot from romance novels.
posted by not that girl at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [161 favorites]


HRC's compliment to his kids is brilliant 'cause he clearly did practically none of the parenting. She basically complimented him for staying out of it.

And, hilariously, he knows it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [51 favorites]


Another debate watched and still haven't put my head in the oven. I'm the real winner here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


I wish she'd have said "his tenacity."
posted by Miko at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


No, that last questions was good. It was arguably a "healing" question.
posted by bonje at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


*handshake after debate*
posted by petebest at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald: She's a fighter, she doesn't quit, and she doesn't give up.

Good answer, Don.
posted by mochapickle at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Rookie move, Donald. When extolling the virtues of your opponent, never have that be the last word out of your mouth.
posted by Room 101 at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


She's a fighter and she doesn't quit.
Sounds hella presidential to me.
posted by Superplin at 7:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Clinton admires Trump's children and Trump admires Trump's children. At least they agree on something.
posted by at by at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


ooh, handshake - now hillary's got to get shots
posted by pyramid termite at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016


Tie?
posted by Flashman at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016


What I respect most about Donald is. .the children he has admitted to not helping to raise

I don't respect them any more than him. Except maybe Barron. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt still.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ok, so I have to wonder if this was a setup along the lines of the VP debate. Are we going to wake up tomorrow morning with a massive drop that totally refocuses this debate.
posted by instamatic at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


It didn't get gross! But he's gross!
posted by valkane at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mic drop to Hilary. Genius.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


GOODNIGHT EVERYONE ENJOY THE BUFFET!
posted by vrakatar at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I never thought I'd say this but Trump's answer to that last question was much better than Clinton's, which came off a little passive aggressive.

Even a broken clock, yadda yadda.
posted by rokusan at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Question: Name something good about each other.

HRC: I see good things in Trump's children.

Trump: I agree.

(He does go on to praise Clinton's tenacity, which is probably a bigger concession than she made to him.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


That was the most coherent thing he's said the entire election cycle.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump did well and may get a bump out of this.

I'm going to go vomit now.
posted by angrybear at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


My Trump-supporting father: 'well, you were right. Hillary ate his lunch.'
posted by box at 7:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


I literally just peed while scrolling my iPad one-handed so I wouldn't fall behind. My thanks to those of you brave enough to watch this for me.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump goes and shakes hands with Ivanka, kisses her chastely on the cheek. None of the RNC groping.
posted by mochapickle at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


lol he got trolled into saying how badass she is
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Politifact: "Sorry, but False...Trump's children are just terrible."
posted by sexyrobot at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [75 favorites]


Wow. Trump complimenting Clinton as a great fighter, without pivoting to a criticism. I didn't think he had it in him.
posted by ogooglebar at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't think he's on coke. It's fairly well known he doesn't touch drugs due to his brother.
posted by tzikeh at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]



I love her, but she didn't shine tonight.
posted by Dr_Janeway at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mad props to the mods in the debate, this could have been much worse.
posted by jazon at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm gonna go get a beer. I can't believe I listened to this sober.

Goodnight.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I really thought that Clinton would praise Trump's "showmanship" or something like that. Remind people that he's really just a performer.
posted by mhum at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Looks like Donald went straight to his family, while Hillary walked up to the audience members to talk with them and shake their hands.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe I'm just drunk but that debate went better than the first one for Trump somehow.
posted by dilaudid at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Once again, Hillary and Bill Clinton work the crowd; Trump stands and talks with his children.
posted by Gelatin at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ugh. I need a shower.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't respect them any more than him. Except maybe Barron. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt still.

Kid is amazing with computers, yo.
posted by rokusan at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well. That was a thing that just happened.

Fangs were bared early on, but the tone became steadily less aggressive. Clinton was good, but not great and Trump was incoherent as usual, but his tone is sure to appeal to some people.

No definitive KO from either side.
posted by dazed_one at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


All the "undecideds" looking thrilled to meet Hillary <3
posted by acidic at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


HAHAHA post debate discussion: "Trump was totally substance free." Me: "are you KIDDING? He was totally high. Oh. Wait. That kind of substance."
posted by instamatic at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [45 favorites]


Listening to the audio, and not seeing the visuals, my impression seems to be a lot more lukewarm than most of the thread. Biggest thing is going to be the whole special prosecutor bit or Pence being thrown under the bus. Also sort of mind-boggling that the Billy Bush stuff amounted to so little.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


you guys what if him answering that one question accurately and directly is the signal the underworld needed to begin their true assault
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I call it a draw. I don't mean for people like me - she's clearly the intellectual winner and the more presidential and experienced - but for the uninformed voter, they were both OK. It wouldn't have put any existing supporters off.

There was zero reason to call it "the most fiery debate" as they're doing on NBC - it was nothing like the McCain "That One" moment.
posted by Miko at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Families milling around . . . standing & talking. Hillary meeting the audience with questions.
posted by petebest at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN Dude is like "It's a wash, But Clinton knows much more.."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Whew. I watched this debate from a literal blanket fort, with friends, cocktails, and popcorn. I am never watching another debate without all of those things. And you, dear Metafilter.
posted by gingerbeer at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


To answer rumors about him leaving the ticket, Pence shows up at a presser tomorrow like nothing happened, with a Donald hairpiece and a whole new personality. He's more excited for a Trump presidency than ever before! The camera operators repeatedly check their white balance, because there's an unexpected slight orange sheen to his skin that they've never seen before.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


like I am legit concerned that he gave that answer because it was too good
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016


LETS ALL TAKE A SHOWER TOGETHER!
posted by vrakatar at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


So Clinton just made Trump look like a good father, and Trump made Clinton look like a good leader.

Not sure that's what you actually meant to do, Donnie. But thanks.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


I liked the balloons at the end of these things a whole lot better.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


So for those actually watching this thing, how many questions came from the Open Debate Coalition website and their question submission/voting gizmo?
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary doesn't quit.

You're goddamn right!

2 Legit
posted by Sys Rq at 7:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


I mean just by not melting down Trump exceeded expectations. He came across as a total asshole but apparently that's not a negative for him.
posted by Flashman at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


All audience members with wind-up cameras- they probably weren't allowed to bring their phones
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


One of the NBC commentators noted that putting political opponents in jail is something they do in Russia. She sounded genuinely shocked and disturbed that Trump would suggest such a thing.
posted by Gelatin at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [35 favorites]


My prespin read on the debate: he was a trainwreck, but he did well enough that some of the remaining Republicans are going to are going to think twice before jumping ship. In particular, he might have just done well enough that people can pretend he didn't call Paula Jones & co. in and hold that press conference and everyone can ignore the first 30 minutes of the debate.

Big takeaways:
Trump disavowing Pence's position
Trump calling for Clinton to be jailed if he was in charge
Trump calling it all locker room talk
posted by zachlipton at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump did well and may get a bump out of this.
He's not getting a bump out of this. It's going to be back to "what do you think the other bombshells are?" tomorrow. This doesn't change the narrative at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wasn't Trump criticizing her "stamina" for the past four weeks, but now he's praising her for never giving up and being a fighter? The thing is, I actually believe he believes his closing remark tonight.
posted by gladly at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Seriously Clinton handled the final question like a master. By praising Trump's children rather than himself, she provided his campaign nothing they can use in opposition ads. Trump, for his part, praised her directly, which for her campaign staff is GOLDEN, man.
posted by at by at 7:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


Seth Mandel ‏@SethAMandel: Trump got better as the night went on and he stopped talking about sexually assaulting women and jailing his opponent.
posted by joedan at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


It's interesting. She's proving she's much better at policy, but Trump's supporters literally see policy as the problem. It's really difficult to bridge that divide. I think he'll get a bump too.
posted by frumiousb at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


LOL, all Trump's complaining about time limits and moderator bias, and CNN just reported he spoke slightly longer than she did.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


I'm weirded out by the circa 1996 disposable wedding reception cameras. I guess they took everyone's phone away so they wouldn't be doing social during the debate, and that was the consolation prize.
posted by Miko at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


A friend of mine on Facebook makes a good point -- Trump repeatedly challenged Martha Raddatz but not Anderson Cooper.
posted by Gelatin at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [86 favorites]


So Trump didn't end up shitting himself during the debate, but I suspect his little "debate prep" stunt is going to detract from any narrative about his sudden presidential demeanor.
posted by bibliowench at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tapper says Trump stanched the bleeding. Erratic in the beginning then prosecuted a good case against her on the emails.

BOTH SIDES. Trump comeback!
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016


(Comments slow down as 3/4 of MetaFilter goes for a potty break.)
posted by tonycpsu at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


People keep saying it got less aggressive as it went on. Wasn't it well past the half way mark when he started pointing at her and calling her a liar. Seemed pretty aggressive to me.
posted by double bubble at 7:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


total disaster for donnie. pacing. hulking in the background. facial tics. never talked to the people, talked to the cameras. spewing word salad. had to be reminded of the question. whined about interruptions and set up the 'debate was rigged' bullshit he's going to spew. how anybody can possibly see this as a plus for trump i swear i just don't know.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [59 favorites]


I could not split screen this debate/Mefi event, now I must read. I love reading. Amazing, Trump's head did not explode, nor did he physically attack her, so it went better than I thought it would. I was not too difficult to watch, but I do have some physical anxiety left from it.
posted by Oyéah at 7:43 PM on October 9, 2016


That debate was grueling to watch, and I doubt it'll have any particular effect on the polls. My prediction is that the news will continue to be dominated by Micgate and the growing divides in and between the Trump campaign and the GOP, rather than anything that anyone said tonight.
So Clinton just made Trump look like a good father, and Trump made Clinton look like a good leader.
In other words, she treated him the way women have been treated in business and politics for decades. “Devoted mother and wife Hillary Clinton…” Nice one.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [57 favorites]


Ok I'm waiting for the CNN snap poll of debate watchers. Please don't let me down, American Populace. Trump was a disaster, you know it to be true.
posted by Justinian at 7:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


i give it to hillary - basically, trump acted like he couldn't wait for her to shutup so he could continue talking incoherently - he acted like his face was going to slide off his head
posted by pyramid termite at 7:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Trump does, in fact, have business ties with Russia, then his "I don't know anything about Russia, I don't do business with Russia" line is going to come back to bite him hard.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


People in the audience are taking photos with disposable film cameras. I didn't know they still made those.
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


All those disposable cameras... electronics prohibition?
posted by Westringia F. at 7:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary said she respects his children lol.

Now we know what hrc shade looks like.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


I mean, he immediately went for the jugular with his bullshit pivoting into Bill's infidelities, but I was expecting that. Afterwards, he was incoherent and petulant, but again, my expectations were low.

She was okay. Fine. But since he managed to kinda-sorta keep his cool, and because the grading curve is so very steep, I think it's going to be billed a draw or even maybe a win for him, which is gross.

Personally, I was most disgusted by the audience tonight, applauding when he said she should be in jail. That was stomach-turning.
posted by Superplin at 7:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Basically, people who are going to see this as a win for Trump because they set the bar way, way lower for him. "Didn't break down and throw a physical tantrum or attack someone" is higher than folks were expecting from him at this stage.
posted by Archelaus at 7:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


So he denies saying something he's on TAPE saying, calls for the special investigation and arrest of his opponent, and this is a net win for him?

This is like short attention span theatre or something.
posted by Mooski at 7:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [69 favorites]


Clinton is sticking around for photos with attendees, but Trump bailed as soon as possible.
posted by ogooglebar at 7:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


The CBS reporter just called the special-prosecutor thing a "moment of brilliance" for Trump.
posted by adamg at 7:45 PM on October 9, 2016


If Trump does, in fact, have business ties with Russia, then his "I don't know anything about Russia, I don't do business with Russia" line is going to come back to bite him hard.

Trump's mirror says that statement translates to he's in hock to Russian oligarchs and Putin personally up to his fucking eyeballs, they own him totally.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


And now begins the most difficult part of any debate: resisting the urge to comment on social media.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


LOL, all Trump's complaining about time limits and moderator bias, and CNN just reported he spoke slightly longer than she did.

He totally did, and half of what he said was just total garbage and the moderators were actually trying to do him a favour by cutting him off.
I kept thinking of Rev Lovejoy reading Homer's wedding vows: "And it just goes on like this..."
posted by Flashman at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


The moderators won this debate. They finally held the reins.
posted by maurreen at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


Is Trump still there? Because it looks like he bolted rather than be near the plebes, whereas HRC is hanging out and meeting everyone.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump stooge Boris Epshteyn is hitting the "moderators were totally unfair" thing.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


So he denies saying something he's on TAPE saying, calls for the special investigation and arrest of his opponent, and this is a net win for him?

He didn't hit her, kick anything, or grope someone in the room on camera. That's how low his expectations were tonight. She did well, but the bar was that low.
posted by zachlipton at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


The best part was that she didn't fuck up debate protocols--she talked to the audience, not to Trump himself. It's jarring when he repeatedly talks at her. The fact that she spoke with thought, and spoke directly to the people asking the questions. Just on basics, she did fabulously.
posted by RedEmma at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think once everyone catches their breath, the direct threat Donald made to jail Hillary will be the biggest abomination of the evening.
posted by Captain l'escalier at 7:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [62 favorites]


She really made a point to try to greet everyone there. She just spun around, obviously checking to see if she missed anyone.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


The media seems like they want to prop Trimp up so this spectacle can continue. Terrible. Trump was an interrupting, lying, sniffing bully who got combative with moderators and kept not even answering questions. But they're trying to make it seem like he did well. Awful.
posted by cashman at 7:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Is anyone else in Washington and not registered to vote who wants to try the registration online? My husband is trying to register and it keeps saying errors occurred, and I want to make sure he is able to vote against the orange hellbeast and see if it's us or the site.
posted by corb at 7:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


HILLARY: i told you he'd fuck the chair

TRUMP: *while fucking the chair* I never fucked the chair
posted by tonycpsu at 7:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [79 favorites]


he immediately went for the jugular with his bullshit pivoting into Bill's infidelities, but I was expecting that.

The NBC reporter in the spin room said that the Trump strategy was to attack hard and knock Clinton off her game, and said that if so, he failed in that, she was clearly prepared.
posted by Gelatin at 7:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's no win for Trump here, not even with that final question. There's no "draw," either. Anything less than stopping the hemorrhaging of his campaign is a loss, and he clearly didn't accomplish that.

The news cycle from before the debate will continue on, and he'll keep getting hurt by it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump spoke for a minute longer than she did, but study after study shows that people think women dominate a conversation when they talk anywhere near as much as men do. So people will probably think that she got more time.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


Melania wore a $1,100 Gucci "pussy-bow silk crepe de chine" shirt tonight. SHADE FOR DAYS
posted by acidic at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [56 favorites]


He admitted he didn't pay taxes, said he'd put his opponent in jail, word salad, body language, etc. etc. She won while remaining presidential and answering questions and connecting with the questioners.
posted by chris24 at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


The pacing and background acting Trump was doing reminded me of this.
posted by infinitewindow at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


In any sane world...
posted by porpoise at 7:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel like Clinton kinda halfway planned her debate aesthetic around being relentlessly hounded by a bag of hot air.
posted by winna at 7:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


This world hasn't been sane in a long time
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now let's see if Pence is still on the ticket, because if not none of the last 2 hours means shit, that's the only story.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Politico: Trump is wrong: Hillary Clinton did not laugh about the rape of a 12-year-old

jesus h. christ.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


If Trump's surrogates are trying to work the refs you know he lost the debate
posted by vuron at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Those of you saying Trump did well, what the heck? He speaks with the authority of a junior high school bully running for office. He says nothing, he has not one fact in his head, he makes confrontational noise, and plays to people who also have few facts, so it is all emotion, and accusation. No, he does not do well in intellectual discourse, he is a paper cut out of a person, empty of all but himself.
posted by Oyéah at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


I'm sorry but threatening to launch a political prosecution on your opponent with the object of putting them in jail is beyond the pale. You cannot be allowed anywhere near the presidency after that. He literally declared he would be a third world dictator on national TV and I still cannot fucking believe it. I'm so utterly fucking livid at him.
posted by Talez at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [142 favorites]


Trump whined like a child, had no policy or detail, interupted and had to be put in his place by moderators several times, lied so much I couldn't even keep count, and never answered a question directly. This is a washout for him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump stooge Boris Epshteyn is hitting the "moderators were totally unfair" thing.

That's loser talk. That's baffling -- complaining about the moderators creates the perception that the Trump campaign believes he lost. And before the post-debate spin gets thru with his "jail my political opponents" crack. Are they nuts?
posted by Gelatin at 7:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't understand the people saying saying Trump didn't melt down. If that wasn't a meltdown, what would one look like?
posted by contraption at 7:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.
Looks like at least one person thinks Trump did well enough.
posted by mhz at 7:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rumors which I think are very unfounded at this time that Pence is leaving the ticket would put a hole right back under the Trump Train water line.

Yes, I just pulled a Bill Mitchell.
posted by tclark at 7:51 PM on October 9, 2016


Poor Steve Schmidt
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought that she was setting him up when she was dropping Russia and Putin early on. I was sure that late in the debate there would be a call-back or a big reveal. I was surprised that there wasn't, nor was there another. Disappointed.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mike Pence ‏@mike_pence 6m6 minutes ago

Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016


Conway on MSNBC doing her motormouth denial of service attack on Chris Matthews.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016


Mike Pence ‏@mike_pence: Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016


"Undecided" voters applauding the email bullshit. Welcome to St Louis and the reasons I don't live there anymore!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can only assume this was a scheduled tweet from Pence: Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Those of you saying Trump did well, what the heck? He speaks with the authority of a junior high school bully running for office. He says nothing, he has not one fact in his head, he makes confrontational noise, and plays to people who also have few facts, so it is all emotion, and accusation. No, he does not do well in intellectual discourse, he is a paper cut out of a person, empty of all but himself.

Oh, I agree. But he's playing well to his base who are fiercely anti-intellectual. We all share some responsibility for this national dumbing down.
posted by frumiousb at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA." --@mike_pence
posted by zachlipton at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016


If anyone in the Clinton campaign has any sense, the next oppo dump needs to come tomorrow to keep the narrative down for Trump.
posted by yasaman at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


All of Trump's statements and stances played to his base. It's as if he's only in this to secure his base of followers to the brand for a future television network or something...
posted by Ber at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ahh well that tweet says he's still on board. That was a fun 20mins.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was definitely hoping for another reveal as well.
posted by erratic meatsack at 7:52 PM on October 9, 2016


Here's my question for all who watched: who looked Presidential to you? To me the answer is that Trump lost by that measure, leaving aside his campaign free fall.
posted by bearwife at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have to say that, viscerally, I have never had any political event leave me as shaken and flat-out scared as that did. Trump "virile" hatred of Hillary Clinton's very existence was in full flame. He never paid attention to a question or a questioner, he never made an argument, he just looked at her and vomited pure hypermasculine hatred.

I feel like I need to bleach myself.
posted by argybarg at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [87 favorites]


Mike's firing that social media intern!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ooooh, NBC just suspended Billy Bush over his involvement with Trump
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


That was like watching an internet flame war IRL. Complete with arguing with the mods.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


I'm really afraid that the debate tonight has somehow made trumps "pussy grabbing" comments no longer big news.
posted by laptolain at 7:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can onlyu assume this was a scheduled tweet from Pence: Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.

At least this time they didn't release it two hours before the debate.
posted by Gelatin at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump was a rambling, incoherent mess who threatened to send his Attorney General to put his political opponent in jail, called her the devil, and paraded her husband's mistresses into the debate hall. And that's not even touching that mess of an answer about Syria.

I can't for the life of me understand how any of these pundits or even people on here are calling this anything less than a disaster.
posted by sallybrown at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [65 favorites]


Well i 'm gonna get even higher and let the pundits sort it out. What I saw was a drowning man who could not make a sentence. Could have been worse.
posted by vrakatar at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am seriously wondering when worse video/audio of Trump shows up. Because I feel certain it's out there.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016


Trump can't win with a base only election strategy though, he actually has to peel away voters from Hillary and that's not even remotely happening.
posted by vuron at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


disco palate cleanser
posted by poffin boffin at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016


He literally declared he would be a third world dictator on national TV and I still cannot fucking believe it.

And he got applause for it
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [64 favorites]


Guys has Mike Pence tweeted anything yet
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


For Trump and his very low bar, he did well. Got in some of the points Kellyanne and the Steves wanted him to get in (prep!). His voice went up a couple of times, but didn't freak like the first debate. He lied, of course, he gished and obfuscated, but he did manage to string in some of the talking points they wanted him to do.

So, Not a shrieking snarling sexual predator fascist. Total win for Trump.

Hillary looked great, sounded great, but didn't show the vast, vast - vast - gulf of knowledge and experience she has over Trump, choosing instead to loop in some sound bite bait and "keeping it simple". She won for me of course, and was the better presenter.

But given the sewer explosion that has been the DJT campaign this week, I was suprised he seemed awake and, for him, kind of mellow. Which is still a loudmouth jerk who doesn't give a crap what the question, but he didn't answer incoherently too much.
posted by petebest at 7:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


No no, remember that's like Pence mirror-speak. He drops by... let's say Wednesday?
posted by TwoStride at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016


I hope someday we get to see the notes that Clinton is taking during these debates. I have a feeling that they're full of profanity and exclamation points.

Probably debrief notes, questions she just thought up for her team to add to the deck.

It's kind of funny to imagine her like James Brown famously was, keeping track of every miniscule less-than-superhuman mistake the band made during the performance. Clean coal, motherfuckers! Your pathetic timeline didn't have that coming up for another three minutes.
posted by ctmf at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm really afraid that the debate tonight has somehow made trumps "pussy grabbing" comments no longer big news.

I'm worried about that too, but I think it's still got legs. He refreshed it tonight trying to dismiss them as "locker room banter." And there's a lot more of his behavior to talk about.
posted by zachlipton at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


And he got applause for it

The American experiment goes out not with a bang but a clang of a jail cell closing.
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]



"Undecided" voters applauding the email bullshit. Welcome to St Louis and the reasons I don't live there anymore!

Seriously, I seriously want to know what the hell went wrong with this fucking audience. He calmed and gained confidence as he was being cheered and laughed with by the crowd and this is NOT what a town hall debate has ever been. Were there in fact undergrad observers in bleachers above the "undecided voters" on the floor or am I imagining this wrong?
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


But he's playing well to his base who are fiercely anti-intellectual.

But Trump needs to reach beyond his base, which he hasn't really managed to do so far and likely won't with that performance.
posted by Gelatin at 7:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


That was about the level of debate #1 in terms of lopsidedness and general insanity but the hot takes are all "wow he did great"? What?? Is this some kind of Red Queen thing where it just has to keep getting worse or we're not satisfied?
posted by theodolite at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Personally, I was most disgusted by the audience tonight, applauding when he said she should be in jail. That was stomach-turning.

Clay Shirky has been RTing Deplorables as a kind of bubble-popper for people who follow him. I had to turn off his RTs tonight, because I actually have to live with Trump voters post-November, and I don't want to be in a situation where I'm, say, in a commercial transaction or in-laws situation and something Trumpy is said and I'm essentially triggered and [record scratch] and what do I do now? I am a polite person, and not a massively judgemental person, so I don't want to be exposed to that collective social media externalised-interiority. That's perhaps partly because my first years actually living in the US (2003-) were when lots of people were bloodthirstily gung-ho about Iraq, and they don't really like re-litigating it now.

OTOH, if you're still deeply invested in Clinton Wars bullshit from the 90s, then fuck you with a rusty spoon.
posted by holgate at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


the next oppo dump needs to come tomorrow to keep the narrative down for Trump

right now
posted by sallybrown at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Did anyone else see that big Wolf Blitzer head go by in the background on CNN? Just me?
posted by Mothlight at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016


I'm baffled that some of you thought he did well, whatever the "bar" was.

I thought he sounded insane.
posted by kyrademon at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


I'm just honestly horrified and petrified. I've never seen anything like that. The thought that this debate might actually convince some people to vote for this boorish, ignorant, arrogant man is chilling. How did it come to this?
posted by peacheater at 7:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


And there's a lot more of his behavior to talk about.

Especially his claim that he's never behaved 'that way' to women, when there is copious evidence that that he does so all the time.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


In Trump fallout news: Billy Bush has been suspended from NBC because of the tape.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm really afraid that the debate tonight has somehow made trumps "pussy grabbing" comments no longer big news.

That won't go away without some of his recent Republican detractors and pullouts un-retracting themselves, and I don't think they'll do that. Not anymore than Ted Cruz could seriously re-unendorse.

I think that whole toxic waste dump inferno will continue burning on.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


KellyAnne Conway has no soul. Her spin performance makes me incredibly angry.
posted by xyzzy at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


If you don't fact check then you don't see lies, ergo, Trump won.
posted by dazed_one at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe I'm just drunk but that debate went better than the first one for Trump somehow.

Watch it again. Because it ended on a seemingly good note, people are lulled into rewriting the entirety of the debate in their minds. the donald was beyond erratic and incoherent for most of the debate imo.
posted by futz at 7:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm really afraid that the debate tonight has somehow made trumps "pussy grabbing" comments no longer big news.

Given his track record, Trump will have trouble not trying to push back against it over and over again.

While he got in some actual talking points and went on the attack, he still displayed his worst, most narcissistic move: he brought up his own negative press, even when it wasn't really a response to the question. He cannot stop talking about himself, even when it hurts him.
posted by kewb at 7:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm baffled that some of you thought he did well, whatever the "bar" was.

i thought he was going to physically assault her while defecating uncontrollably all over himself so, you know. that's the bar.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [55 favorites]


Did this guy in the red sweater not know he'd be on television?

He has a name, you know. It's Ken Bone.

I was feeling so bad about that mean comment and wishing I could delete it.
Then I looked at Twitter.
posted by Flashman at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think I'll ever stop being livid about Trump publicly declaring that Clinton would be politically prosecuted and, if successful, be jailed. I still can't believe what we've been brought down to as a Republic. This happens in other countries. This happens in countries that ASPIRE to be like the United States.

IT SHOULD NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN HERE.
posted by Talez at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [89 favorites]


It went better for Trump on his terms, because he yelled and was "strong." He called Hillary the devil and said he'd imprison her and said "how stupid is this country." Last debate he was trying to seem quasi-focused and made almost no sense. This time it was pure fury in his style.

Now, if the general public likes that style and elects him, then this country has the apocalypse it deserves.
posted by argybarg at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


The only thing tonight might've done for Republicans is prevent the complete loss of the House.

Trump is still losing the Presidential vote by a substantial margin and the Senate is likely going blue.

But Trump might've stopped the bleeding at Clinton +5 tonight.

Of course there are at least 2 big bombshells liable to smash Trump and Trump's only ammo is Emails. Sad!
posted by vuron at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Undecided" voters applauding the email bullshit. Welcome to St Louis and the reasons I don't live there anymore!

I didn't even think about the location of the debate. St. Louis is hands down the most racist place I've ever been to in the US, and I lived there for 3 years. The clapping for emails from "undecideds" makes more sense in that light. Missouri is a write off for Clinton, maybe we shouldn't draw a lot of larger parallels to other states.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


CSPAN is showing an interview with Jesse Jackson, reporters are calling in the background "Paula Paula Paula!"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016


Pence has to work out whether he's a GOP company man or a TrumpOrg company man, having learned very much tonight that the only TrumpOrg people Trump won't throw under the bus have the last name 'Trump'.
posted by holgate at 8:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Just hit my favorite limit. Everyone who participated today, please consider yourself favorited.
posted by ogooglebar at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yeah don't believe the spin, donnie came in on the defensive and left that way, he lost tonight where it counts, and more horrifying shit will drop.
posted by vrakatar at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


These CNN commentators are almost as bad as the noise on a Twitter feed or Facebook post. Please bring back the candidates.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kenneth Bone and Kenneth Bone alone will decide who won this goddamn debate.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Krugman: Let's be clear: a candidate for president promised to put his opponent in jail if he wins. Everything else is secondary.
posted by octothorpe at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [128 favorites]


OMG. Kellyanne Conway "I'm with him until the bitter end, unless... "

That clip is going to replay for the next 24 hours.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Anderson Cooper Begins Debate By Giving Trump Opportunity To Explain What The Fuck Is Wrong With Him
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [34 favorites]


I honestly don't think I've seen such an unprofessional performance in a presidential debate before. I think Trump had the kind of night that might seem like a win at first because it got his core hooping and hollering but over time, he basically looks like exactly what he was: the guy who showed up for the interview unprepared. He was talking in double spaced lines with extra margins most of the time. He could have come across as presidential here but instead he decided to talk about how the format was unfair.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


Complaining about time repeatedly..."you just gave her half an hour, and you haven't even given me ten seconds"...as though he could say any more in half an hour than he says in ten seconds...that was very petulant indeed. Probably won't matter overall, though.
posted by uosuaq at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


My nightcap was supposed to be a can of Heady Topper
but DISASTER occurred so oh well
i have an awkward 'Gansett isntead
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Were there in fact undergrad observers in bleachers above the "undecided voters" on the floor or am I imagining this wrong?

There were. Out of the almost 15,000 students on campus, 352 landed a coveted ticket to get into the Athletic Complex to watch the debate. The students were chosen at random from a pool of thousands who entered into a lottery system weeks ago.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


These CNN commentators are almost as bad as the noise on a Twitter feed or Facebook post. Please bring back the candidates

Seriously. I can't believe I made it through that digusting shitshow of a debate and now it's the post-debate commentary that's gonna make me vomit and/or tear out my hair.
posted by TwoStride at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump was in a complete nosedive prior to this debate and the possibility of him dropping out was on the table. Now I think he stabilized this and will at least retain some of the party's support, Pence's support and maintain his campaign for the duration. He won't win but he will shore up a lot of votes and even prevent a landslide.

Van Jones on CNN makes the point that a total Trump burnout and replacement by a better candidate would be a worse outcome for Hillary.
posted by angrybear at 8:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


It will be viewed as a wash, when objectively it was a Clinton win. Doesn't matter. Trump needed something more than a gentleman's tie, he needed Obama v. Romney round 2, or the Clinton Townhall masterclass. Instead he was merely competent-ish against an opponent who was his superior.

The debate is so understated, it will absolutely be drowned out by TicTacTrumpTape for Monday morning viewers/listeners/readers who don't really care about news after they pull into the driveway on Friday, and are a little cross that they don't know what their Facebook friends and Twitter follows have been going on about all weekend.

The debate wasn't juicy. The Great GOP Freakout of 2016 is juicy.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


What I WISH she had said: "You calling those comments 'locker room talk' is like telling all the 12-year-old boys in the country that they should talk about their friends that are girls that way. What you call 'locker room banter' is what what the rest of us call 'rape culture.'"
posted by Dr_Janeway at 8:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [52 favorites]


People, Pence's verified account is GovPenceIN.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Turn off the post debate spin, you're just encouraging them.

We just saw a candidate for President of these United States promise to lock up his opponent if elected.

And then provide utterly incoherent word salad for 90 minutes. (Aleppo? Disagree with running mate? Don't pay Federal taxes? Each of these would be political suicide in normal years. EACH of these.)

And finally he praised his opponent for her tenacity.

This did not go well for Trump.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


I'm watching the C-SPAN call in show, and I'm pretty alarmed at the number of people saying they thought Donald did better, and how they were undecided but now are supporting Trump fully.
posted by ApathyGirl at 8:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't think Any GOP supporter will be turned off by the suggestion of putting a political opponent in jail. They have been chanting the same stuff at his rallies.
posted by annsunny at 8:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


@mike_pence is verified too.
posted by zachlipton at 8:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Chuck Todd on Kellyanne Conway: "She'll also just a very good person."

Go away
posted by sallybrown at 8:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


The students were chosen at random from a pool of thousands who entered into a lottery system weeks ago.

That's not really true. When I was there, suspiciously the only people "randomly" invited were Senator's kids, and relations to big Wash U or party donors.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Okay, has any journalist or commentator asked in relation to the Access Hollywood tape whether Trump, as commander in chief, could ever credibly do anything about rape in the military? That seems like the most material thing, even in the laughably unbelievable case that it was "just talk" instead of an admission of sexual assault.

Chris Matthews interviewing Conway on MSNBC just now did a whole series of questions without asking about that... and now Conway is going off on praising Trump's performance at the Commander in Chief Forum where the question was actually asked by a servicemember...
posted by XMLicious at 8:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


@igorvolsky
Seriously folks, calling #debate a wash when Trump pledged to prosecute political opponent is pretty fucking reprehensible.
posted by chris24 at 8:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [68 favorites]


> I don't think Any GOP supporter will be turned off by the suggestion of putting a political opponent in jail.

But that basket of deplorables is not a voting majority. In fact, it barely cracks 40%, which is historic landslide loss proportions.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The final comments from each candidate were the most telling to me. Trump knows HRC is going to be the next president and he being a capitalist knows he needs/should have somewhat amicable ties with whoever is in the white house Hillary being the president is not going to totally shred Mr Trump; billionaire Trump could come in handy for some of her plans during her term.
posted by robbyrobs at 8:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@mike_pence is verified too.

OK, weird. Carry on, then.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:06 PM on October 9, 2016


Clinton north of 10% in the Drudge Report debate poll, which I think counts as a decisive win for her.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


CNN states that he probably stopped the bleeding within his own base, and I just want everything to burn.
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"What do you respect about your opponent?"
HILLARY: "Home Alone 2: Lost in New York was one of the two best Home Alone movies"
posted by winna at 8:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [53 favorites]


‏@SamWangPhD: Turn it off.
Today PEC's Clinton win probability hit 95%. In past races that's been a Rubicon.
posted by Justinian at 8:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


I don't think I'll ever stop being livid about Trump publicly declaring that Clinton would be politically prosecuted and, if successful, be jailed.

I've been guessing he would be saying something like this since the primaries. It's actually kind of weird to say it at this point in the general election, because it's only red meat for his base and doesn't really help with undecideds.

I guess I wouldn't put it past him in the next debate to say he'll also prosecute Obama and Bill Clinton if he gets elected.
posted by FJT at 8:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


People, Pence's verified account is GovPenceIN.

Like many politicians, he has both a verified personal account and a verified account in the capacity of his office.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Metafilter: He was talking in double spaced lines with extra margins most of the time.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have a question. Many people here (possibly rightly) wanted Obama to bring war crimes and other charges against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld once he took office. If Obama would have made the same charges against those people at a debate as Trump did about Clinton tonight I imagine it would have been welcomed or at least tolerated here.

What makes the two things different?

(I know hypotheticals are useless to consider / I am 100% a Clinton supporter and disgusted by trump / Please do not destroy me I love you metafilter)
posted by laptolain at 8:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Tequila shots every time Trump says "Okay!?" at the end of sentence.


If you'd done a shot every time he sniffed you'd be in the emergency room with alcohol poisoning. He needs a candy dish full of antihistamines.
posted by datawrangler at 8:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


What makes the two things different?

One has factual and legal basis.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [37 favorites]


James Carville pointing out that Trump's debate performance was, in fact, terrible.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Pro-Tip- people calling into a call in show claiming to be undecideds are anything but

Trump is trying to create a positive news cycle but at the end of the day he's lost a ton of Republican politicians and he still hasn't answered for the "Locker Room" talk.

Tonight wasn't an unmitigated disaster for Trump and I guess that's a "win" but in terms of actually reversing campaign trajectory he failed horribly.
posted by vuron at 8:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


People, Pence's verified account is GovPenceIN.

@GovPenceIN is the governor account, @mike_pence is the campaign account -- remember that there's a legal difference between public-office accounts and running-for-office accounts, just as there's a difference between @VP and @JoeBiden,

OTOH, that was obv not from Pence himself.
posted by holgate at 8:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


The final comments from each candidate were the most telling to me. Trump knows HRC is going to be the next president and he being a capitalist knows he needs/should have somewhat amicable ties with whoever is in the white house Hillary being the president is not going to totally shred Mr Trump; billionaire Trump could come in handy for some of her plans during her term.

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense to me. They were asked to name one thing they respected about their opponent. They have to give that question at least a little lip service, or else they end the debate looking petty. There's no need to insert conspiracy theories into this. They are going to be political enemies long after the election. Trump has made his bed with the deplorables, and hatred of Hillary is their raison d'etre.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Obama didn't campaign on bringing war crimes against Bush, for one.
posted by orange ball at 8:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Van Jones on CNN makes the point that a total Trump burnout and replacement by a better candidate would be a worse outcome for Hillary.

This. Trump is a poltroon. We'd be much worse off with someone just as evil but more plausible.

Trump's core 25% of the country, or whatever - they're bad, but they're also a write-off. It's the middling people, the ones who are into Trump because it feels fun or all their neighbors are, the people with no real political convictions beyond the news cycle - those are the people who will be shut down by a Trump loss because they don't like losers and it won't be fun anymore, plus the novelty will have worn off. A Clinton victory (and, hopefully, a Democratic senate) will just settle those folks right down. This is the far right's moment, and if they lose their moment, they've lost momentum. It doesn't mean the end of the GOP, or the end of racism, but it does mean a real defeat that has real consequences for the US political climate.

That is why we're all going to get out there and vote like votey things.
posted by Frowner at 8:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


Having a beer with Hillary Clinton would be a riot. I'd be afraid to drink water with Donald Trump.

Seriously, I'd be afraid he'd try to roofie me (or more probably any conventionally attractive women with me.) Ughhhh. I'm not sure how much of it was the feed I was watching, but the way he was looming over Clinton absolutely would have creeped me out, were I in her place. I haven't seen much (any?) video or audio of him beyond the first debate, but he 100% comes across like someone I'd try not to get stuck sitting next to/try not to get stuck in a room alone with.
posted by ubersturm at 8:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Many people here (possibly rightly) wanted Obama to bring war crimes and other charges against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld once he took office. If Obama would have made the same charges against those people at a debate as Trump did about Clinton tonight I imagine it would have been welcomed or at least tolerated here.

What makes the two things different?

Had Obama made that statement he wouldn't have been making it literally feet away from the person he was threatening with jail time.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


(I know hypotheticals are useless to consider / I am 100% a Clinton supporter and disgusted by trump / Please do not destroy me I love you metafilter)

You answered the question yourself by noting that Obama didn't make those charges in a debate. There's a big difference between voters wanting a candidate to do something and the candidate actually doing it.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Like many politicians, he has both a verified personal account and a verified account in the capacity of his office.

So would that count as having both a public and a private stance on political issues?

Hmmm.
posted by mochapickle at 8:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


One has factual and legal basis.


Then why didn't Obama pursue it?
posted by laptolain at 8:12 PM on October 9, 2016


I thought he looked like a totally crazed moron. Maybe I wasn't watching the same debate as some of these people.
posted by bongo_x at 8:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Clinton has already been investigated and cleared by the government entities charged with responsibility for the email flap. Trump, instead of accepting that result, says he will send the Attorney General back after her (not that the DOJ will open an investigation, but that he will order them to) and implies she will end up in jail no matter what.

It's...really not that difficult to understand. And I'm someone who would have been horrified if Obama had said in a debate something as mild as "I think someone should open an investigation into Bush's war policy."
posted by sallybrown at 8:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


OK, weird. Carry on, then.

I don't know if it's against election law in the States (I'd imagine it is, or should be!), but it's good general practice for politicians to have one account for their elected duties and another account specifically for campaigning. Otherwise you would be seen as using your office in campaigning to gain an unfair advantage.
posted by chrominance at 8:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, a mug and a half of rum helped. I think Clinton won, seemed more sane. Trump treated it liked a rally, and seemed whiny. I'll Be interested to see the spin over the next 24 hours.
posted by jazon at 8:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kellyanne conway (sp?) is losing control of her narrative on msnbc right now. She said "unless..." as though there was breaking point for her with Trump. Why they give this person airtime is beyond me and is a major reason why I stopped watching network news.

This pundit/cult of personality/spin doctor who lies for a living is sickening to me. When you treat this kind of person as a valuable source of information you devalue the News Business and devolve into Entertainment News which is unacceptable to me. ymmv.
posted by futz at 8:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Chuck Todd:

"He fired up his base. But the next 48 hours are going to be terrible for Trump. This is a terrible 30 second clip debate for him."
posted by chris24 at 8:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


On the one hand, due to the obscenely low bar and media who want a close fight, this debate will go to Trump by a few points. On the other hand, the reason the tape has legs is that tomorrow we go back to asking each and every Republican whether they support Trump despite those words and acts, and whoever says yes, the tape is played again and they are asked again. The fact that Trump "won" this debate doesn't make that question any easier for anyone. And to the degree that they are more willing to hang on and support him, that's probably for the better as the replays and whatever else comes out slowly chips away at their older and evangelical supporters and drags them down with him. A debate win here or there matters, but assuming no meteors, Clinton will win the election. What's more important at this point is the down-ballot vote, particularly the House. The debate will have little to no effect on that, but the tape will continue to be the gift that keeps giving for days to come, even as it drops off the national media's hamsterish attention span.
posted by chortly at 8:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Then why didn't Obama pursue it?

I mean, this is hardly the place, but the list of reasons is miles long. There's years worth of debate on this site regarding the topic.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Then why didn't Obama pursue it?

Because jailing your political predecessors and opponents is a terrible precedent even if they deserve it.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [57 favorites]


It's been considered bad form to prosecute your predecessor in office. Something, something dignity of the office, yadda yadda.

Looking like you are politicizing the Justice system is a really big no no as well.
posted by vuron at 8:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Gonna very firmly suggest we not dig into the "should Bush et al have been prosecuted for war crimes" thing here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


@carrieffisher I think I should pay more taxes than someone less fortunate. Donald is for the rich. He'll only take care of his own.

@reimamy @carrieffisher tell me something about that sniffle...coke head or no?

@carrieffisher @reimamy I'm an expert & ABSOLUTELY
posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [53 favorites]


Trump's whole mode right now is to apply the blowtorch to the nickel ball of Hillary hatred and hope it burns the whole fucking country down so he can rule the ruins.
posted by argybarg at 8:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Rudy: Hillary went on and on and on (rambling) and didn't make any sense
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:15 PM on October 9, 2016


why didn't Obama pursue it?

Because Obama is, above fucking all, an institutionalist and believes that institutions have to survive the people who are the temporary occupants of institutional positions, and the institutional convention is that you do not prosecute a previous president or VP. If you haven't grasped that over the past seven and two-thirds years...
posted by holgate at 8:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [66 favorites]


I didn't watch it, but it sounds like this is similar to Pence "winning" the previous debate. A little bit of praise the night of, followed by a week's worth of clips he can be hammered on as his statements are dissected. Or at least until the next oppo bombshell hits and everyone forgets. Debates seem vastly overvalued in general.
posted by codacorolla at 8:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, no. There's no way in hell I'd have a beer with Trump without full body armor, a chastity belt, and that weird roofie-detecting nail polish somebody invented last year. Oh, and two lawyers with tape recorders. No way.
posted by instamatic at 8:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Kellyanne conway (sp?) is losing control of her narrative on msnbc right now.

The curse of praising Kate McKinnon for accurately encapsulating your current political existence.
posted by holgate at 8:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Remember when the Bush administration tried to use the DOJ for petty political purposes and it was a big scandal called Attorneygate
posted by theodolite at 8:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Debates seem vastly overvalued in general.

Conducted as flashy media spectacles, yes. An actual, genuine debate would be valuable, meaningful, and widely ignored.
posted by kewb at 8:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'd have a beer with trump. I'd also wear a Pepe shirt, and bring a hidden tape recorder.
posted by codacorolla at 8:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tiffany Trump skillfully pulls away from her dad's kiss #debate

The only thing involving Trump that doesn't make me even more livid right now.
posted by Talez at 8:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [96 favorites]


"THERE WAS SEMEN ON HER DRESS," says a goggle-eyed Rudy Giuliani to Chris Matthews, in response to a question about Juanita Broaddrick
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I just want to say this would have been intolerable without you guys. Completely intolerable.
posted by corb at 8:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


Clinton quite frankly would've been attacked as being vindictive if she went after Trump with both barrels tonight because of the Bill Clinton is a horrible person and somehow Hillary things raping children is funny attacks. She looked presidential and stately and unlikely to start WW3 if Putin does something shitty.

Trump on the other hand got into a temper tantrum argument with Anderson Cooper.
posted by vuron at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Where are people finding the 'talk timer' on this one? I cannot seem to find anything on 'the googlez' giving total talk time...
posted by das_2099 at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016


Beer number 2 post debate reflection:

The most concrete plan trump has given for his plans as president were detailing exactly how he would prosecute Hillary Clinton.

That's fucked up.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [78 favorites]


@davidfrum
Hillary didn't wholly win that debate. Just the election.
posted by chris24 at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Tiffany Trump skillfully pulls away from her dad's kiss #debate

This is beautiful. I am thinking she truly is her mother's daughter...
posted by mochapickle at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump does not drink. Clinton drinks Crown Royal and probably saves the purple bags because they might be useful.
posted by holgate at 8:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [66 favorites]


Best case either way this was, to me, a tie. Which, fortunately, means we go 110% right back to the trump audio tape.

I think republicans looking for a reason to distance themselves from Trump have it, and this debate performance isn't going to stop that. The bleeding has slowed, it hasn't stopped.

Watching this without the sound would have been interesting, Trump looked like Mussolini (sp?) and Clinton looked presidential.
posted by Farce_First at 8:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


How the fuck did you New Yorkers elect this cretin
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]



Tiffany Trump skillfully pulls away from her dad's kiss #debate

The only thing involving Trump that doesn't make me even more livid right now.

Yep no body language thing going on there. No sirreee.
posted by Jalliah at 8:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Giuliani is unhinged and getting taken apart by Matthews. Giuliani's constantly trying the "locker room talk" angle with his response to the tape and whiffing. Christ, what an asshole.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


It wasn't my fault, I assure you, Prize Bull Octorok!
posted by AJaffe at 8:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chris Matthews seems to just feel sorry for Rudy and doesn't know how to even talk to someone so detached from reality.
posted by gatorae at 8:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Per Lawrence O'Donnell, Trump got 1m05s more speaking tome than Hillary.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I didn't watch it, but I keep hearing people talking about the stalking and looming you guys were talking about earlier. Anybody have any .gifs?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016


Tiffany Trump skillfully pulls away from her dad's kiss #debate

llama-turns-head.gif
posted by cashman at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016


@EliStokols
Trump...
1. Threw Pence under the bus on Syria
2. Threatened to jail Hillary
3. Admitted paying no taxes
= "much improved debate"
posted by chris24 at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Interesting thing about the debate tonight: notice how there was only one topic about which Trump became not just animated but detailed in his plans: prosecuting his opponent.
Syria? Nope. Russia? Nope. Energy? Nope. Taxes? Nope. Health care? Nope.
Petulant revenge? All of a sudden he's a man with a plan.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [69 favorites]


Most republicans are just talking shit when they claim the media is biased or part of some great left wing conspiracy. But with Trump, the media really is against him, and the funny thing is he won't get any sympathy because it's all his own doing. Keeping them locked on a plane during events, talking them into a press conference that turns out to be a hotel commercial, personally berating them during debates and conferences, etc.
posted by p3t3 at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


You guys are all amazing and I love you. Question: I was watching, but our tv was cutting out periodically (probably for the best, really) plus I was distracted by whiskey - did he actually call her a/the devil?
posted by skycrashesdown at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


No word on whether that total counts all the time he was talking over her and over the moderators.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:23 PM on October 9, 2016


How the fuck did you New Yorkers elect this cretin

acid was like 50c a hit in the 90s man
posted by poffin boffin at 8:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


I predict the "these were just words" defense is going to come back and haunt Trump in the near future.
posted by humanfont at 8:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


did he actually call her a/the devil?

Yes. FUCKING YES.
posted by Talez at 8:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA

Make America Great Again, I think.
posted by Pink Frost at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have never seen a moderator as angry as Martha Raddatz. She was DONE with him. Cooper was definitely Not Nice a few times. Which is fine by me, because it prompted some epic whining in on his part.

Starting to see posts on Twitter about his "looming" behavior I wonder if that will become part of the takeaway.
posted by emjaybee at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


I know I've been pessimistic, but I'm reasonably confident "locker room talk" is going to be the topic of the day again tomorrow. That was an incredibly weak answer Trump had, it's like he didn't rehearse the one thing that he knew he would be asked about, and there are entirely too many people who, rightly, aren't going to let that go and will not let him dismiss sexual assault as talk. Many of them are women who are reporters.
posted by zachlipton at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA?

Make America Great Again
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016


i mean for like less than the cost of a gray's hot dog and juice you could roll for like 50h all the way from disco 2000 to nasa
posted by poffin boffin at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA?

I presume it is Make America Great Again.

Either that, or Maybe Annoint a Giant Asshole.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Make America Great Again (again)
posted by Captain l'escalier at 8:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA?

Election reference wiki #knowingishalfthebattle
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


#MAGA: Make America Grope Again!
posted by jferg at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


The bleeding has slowed, it hasn't stopped.

As blood loss increases, blood volumes and pressure drops, leading to slower bleeding.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


skycrashesdown: Yes, joining like a dozen republican folks tho.
posted by hleehowon at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016


I can't believe I just had to ask that fucking question, and I can't fucking believe the answer is yes. This whole debate has left me feeling terrified and frantic so now I'm working off my nervous energy by cleaning the bathroom at 8 pm on a Sunday night.
posted by skycrashesdown at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Donald Trump referred to Hillary Clinton as “the devil” during the presidential debate on Sunday night.

Accusing the Democratic nominee of stealing the primary from Bernie Sanders, Trump said, “I was surprised to see him sign up with the devil.”" --fortune.com

I really hope that doesn't get lost in the shuffle.
posted by zachlipton at 8:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


@selectall
Many people frantically Googled on "lepo" — as in "what's a lepo?" — tonight #debate slct.al/2dVfaTu

@KoryStamper
Your debate lookups @MerriamWebster, in order:
lepo-
bigly
demogogic
demagogue
locker-room
bipartisan
Aleppo
socialism
petulant
debate
posted by acidic at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, he literally called her the devil, right before saying he would throw her in jail after an inquiry.

He has been calling her the devil for months during his rallies. This is the first time he has said it to her face.
posted by mochapickle at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Then why didn't Obama pursue it?

I'm pretty sure he never really considered it, and it would have been unprecedented in US history. But remember at the time of the election the US public was tired of the fight between Red America and Blue America and really, really scared of just not having an economy at all. And Obama's own campaign was based on national unity and hope. To turn around and pursue a case against his predecessor would have been completely against Obama's message and seen as the ultimate blue vs. red fight at a time when the country and the world called for actual leadership. Pragmatically too, any sort of case would have sucked up all the oxygen and prevented any progress from being made on the economy and a bunch of other problems at the time (Iraq, Bin Laden, health care, etc.)
posted by FJT at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


And just to reiterate: historians are going to look back on Obama and note that even though he probably expanded some executive powers because of the Congressional vacuum, he was mostly scrupulous about the institutional constraints of the presidency because Harvard Law and that's just who he is. He ran for office with a very well-defined sense of the limits of the presidency and presidented accordingly. A big part of legacy, I hope, is that whoever takes office after him (and yeah I hope beyond hope it's Hillary) respects that.
posted by holgate at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


The other reason why Trump probably looked better tonight is that he fundamentally know he's beaten and once the knowledge of that sets in sometimes you look more relaxed because frankly nothing really matters anymore because it's not like Trump gives a shit if the Republican party loses both the House and Senate. Why would he care since at his core he's a massive narcissist.
posted by vuron at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Khan's parents: "We know that our son, captain Humayun Khan, is an American hero, we also know that Trump is not telling the truth when he said he was against the Iraq war. Our son served this country with honor and distinction, and gave the ultimate sacrifice. The only thing Donald Trump sacrifices is the truth."
posted by tonycpsu at 8:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [141 favorites]


My low blood pressure zoomed all the way up to normal for a couple of hours. Back to vampire BP now.
posted by datawrangler at 8:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Quoted for terrifying truth:

argybarg: It went better for Trump on his terms, because he yelled and was "strong." He called Hillary the devil and said he'd imprison her and said "how stupid is this country." Last debate he was trying to seem quasi-focused and made almost no sense. This time it was pure fury in his style.

Now, if the general public likes that style and elects him, then this country has the apocalypse it deserves.

You encapsulate my fears perfectly. Elected tyrants are not unheard-of. It could happen here. We must not allow it. The alternative is too grim to speak of.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Whoever has the "Netflix and Hill" sign on MSNBC right now is awesome.
posted by cashman at 8:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


How many Republican dis-endorsers are wishing they held off a little after the CNN/Luntz consensus is apparently that Trump "won" narrowly? McCain probably wishes he had about 7 hours back.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:32 PM on October 9, 2016


Back to vampire BP now.

...The solution is in the name, my friend.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Turn on MSNBC, Joy is on.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Joy rocks. Love her.
posted by chris24 at 8:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@selectall
Many people frantically Googled on "lepo" — as in "what's a lepo?"

$20, same as in town.
posted by Captain l'escalier at 8:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Joy Reid is dropping truth bombs, talking about how jailing your opponents is what dictators do.
posted by zachlipton at 8:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Anybody have any GIFs

Oh yes.
posted by holgate at 8:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


The bleeding has slowed, it hasn't stopped.

In the words of Dr. Sydnee McElroy, "All bleeding stops eventually."
posted by JDHarper at 8:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


YouGov post-debate poll of the winner: Clinton 47% Trump 42%
posted by Justinian at 8:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Joy Reid: This was a debate you would expect in the third world rather than the United States of America.
posted by gatorae at 8:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


He doesn't want to jail her because she's his opponent. She wants to jail her because he think she committed a crime.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:35 PM on October 9, 2016


Know I'm a little late to respond but feel the need to say that in my NYC first grade class I was one of only two kids who didn't vote for Giuliani in our "election," and it's one of the things I'm proudest of.
posted by ferret branca at 8:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


He doesn't want to jail her because she's his opponent. She wants to jail her because he think she committed a crime.

A little column A, a little column B.
posted by mochapickle at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh no you mean the bullshit Luntz focus group and the easily gamed online polls weren't necessarily accurate?

Wow I'm shocked at this turn of events.
posted by vuron at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Chuck tingle live tweeted the debate
posted by a strong female character at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


I have read exactly zero comments, so bear with me. When trump said his average donation was $61, I immediately donated $62.

(Hillary could have done better in the debate, but that is neither here nor there.)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Starting to see posts on Twitter about his "looming" behavior I wonder if that will become part of the takeaway.

Dad and I had a conversation before the debate about how I think he's gonna be looming and I wonder if he's going to get in her face if he gets really mad. I talked to him about my experience with men looming.

Parents watched it. Dad just got through telling me that there were no fireworks but he was kinda weird and looked threatening standing behind her and walking around.

Me: 'So he was looming Dad. Just like I talked about before the debate?'

Dad: ' Oh that's what you meant. Yes looming. "

Then here is the kicker: Dad: So you have really had men do that sort of thing to you? A lot?

Me: "Yes. It just something I have to deal with at times"

Dad looking just sad and dejected: "Oh.....I'm..so...sorry. That's horrible."
Then he just sat there looking so heartbroken.
posted by Jalliah at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [198 favorites]


WHOA. Conway on MSNBC says some of the members of Congress who won't support Trump have been sexual harassers themselves:

Trump is burning this whole mother down. Fuck him the pathetic little man.
posted by Talez at 8:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [38 favorites]


Today PEC's Clinton win probability hit 95%. In past races that's been a Rubicon.

References to seminal events in the fall of an earlier republic and the rise of an absolute emperor don't exactly make me feel better right now.
posted by biogeo at 8:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


The crime was standing against his mighty ego.
posted by Archelaus at 8:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I watched this with chips n' salsa, a group of friends, and a giant frozen margarita.

It was not enough, you guys.

This election is breaking my brain.
posted by emjaybee at 8:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA?

"Muggle Assembly of Giant Assholes", the non-magical political entity that attempts to run in parallel to MACUSA?
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Let's take a moment to note that seating a bunch of Bill's accusers in the front row did not throw Hillary off at all
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [58 favorites]


To be fair to Trump I doubt Trump would actually make prosecuting Hillary a priority as he'd be more focused on looting the US coffers.
posted by vuron at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


The CNN ticker of audience response is so useless, but I'm digging one stern man in their "Undecideds" group who's decided to take the locker room thing very literally and is (sadly probably QUITE mistaken) that young athletes don't talk like that and 59 year-olds aren't in locker rooms anyway...
posted by TwoStride at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hah! Clinton live on MSNBC begging the press pool on her plane to shut up so they can take off and start serving drinks.
posted by gladly at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


He doesn't want to jail her because she's his opponent. She wants to jail her because he think she committed a crime.

Did you borrow GWB's soul-vision for the weekend?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


(in his disapproval of Trump).
posted by TwoStride at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016


The CNN Ohio uncommitted focus group was about 47% for Clinton, 47% Draw, 6% (1 woman) Trump. Still waiting for their scientific snap poll.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


WHOA. Conway on MSNBC says some of the members of Congress who won't support Trump have been sexual harassers themselves:

I saw this and I don't understand the lack of follow-up from Chris Matthews (well, I do, because he's Chris Matthews, but still). Surely the response to that is "wow I'm sorry. What can we do to make sure none of the leaders in any branch of our government are committing sexual harassment and/or sexual assault? That shouldn't be ok in Congress or the White House."
posted by zachlipton at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary on Donald: "an avalanche of falsehoods." Now THAT is a good catchphrase!
posted by TwoStride at 8:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


the way he was looming over Clinton absolutely would have creeped me out

On MSNBC, Nicole Wallace (R) said shes about Hillary's height and if someone his size stood that close to her on the street she'd call 911.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [60 favorites]


Actually I did the math wrong since there were a lot more than 15 people in the focus group. Point being, it was evenly split between Clinton and Draw with one lone white woman on board the Trump Train.
posted by Justinian at 8:40 PM on October 9, 2016


CNN/ORC debate poll of debate watchers, slightly Dem-leaning:

Who won the debate?

57% Clinton
34% Trump
posted by Rhaomi at 8:40 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


I like Ms Raddatz but it this debate in particular should have been moderated by Anderson and Kathy Griffin.
posted by sammyo at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Do the Bill Accusers kind of feel used now? Ok, great, now go home? What was that all about?
posted by ctmf at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


> Hah! Clinton live on MSNBC begging the press pool on her plane to shut up so they can take off and start serving drinks.

I want to see this.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Don't believe the MSM lies about Trump getting more speaking time. His microphone was slower, so it doesn't count.
posted by uosuaq at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I turned it off right after the closing bell-I know Hillary is in the habit of working the crowd after a debate. Did any if Bill Clinton's accusers get in close enough for a photo?
posted by Captain l'escalier at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN debate poll, continued:

Did Trump do better or worse than expected?

63% better
21% worse
15% same

Did Clinton do better or worse than expected?

39% better
26% worse
34% same
posted by Rhaomi at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


CNN calls it: 57% for HRC to 34% Donald in winning the poll. Though 63% said he did better than expected, 21% worse.
posted by TwoStride at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here are the top 5 questions on presidentialopenquestions.com...

Wow, those five (six) questions are quite a bit better than what we got.
posted by rokusan at 8:41 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's only slightly down for Clinton from the first debate which matches my impression. Too many talking heads are grading it on a curve with a 90 degree slope.
posted by Justinian at 8:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


63% better

Trump threatened his opponent with a purely political prosecution and jail and they think he did better than expected.

Jesus Fucking Christ.
posted by Talez at 8:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Hillary on plane answers question on Donald's looming: "Oh, I could tell he was there! But it was a pretty small space. I tried to give him space."
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Curt Schilling, a major-league asshole, makes an unfortunate typo.
posted by clorox at 8:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


Should have been moderated by Ana Navarro.
"This question is ALSO for you, Donald Trump..."
"Don't you tell mDON'T YOU TELL ME..."

Clinton: twiddles thumbs
posted by ctmf at 8:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Keeping it 1600's take on it
(link is to timestamp to where the show starts.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Trump: "I don’t like Assad at all, but Assad is killing ISIS, Russia is killing ISIS, and Iran is killing ISIS."" (NBC News)

"Maybe the most striking foreign issue statement of the debate from Trump and almost entirely false." --@julianborger

This needs to be hit hard. It's dangerously wrong. It belongs up there with "I don't know anything about Russia."
posted by zachlipton at 8:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [46 favorites]


Though considering Trump's track record with casinos, maybe we don't have too much to worry about if he announces that the die is cast.
posted by biogeo at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do the Bill Accusers kind of feel used now? Ok, great, now go home? What was that all about?

Indeed. I truly cannot fathom what that little show was about, especially since when they introduced them we must all have felt certain that he was going to gesture to them in the crowd and talk about them at some point during the debate. I think his campaign thought that moment was going to be really big for him. But it never happened. It seemed to fizzle purposelessly. And I hesitate to weigh in on what they were thinking or why they agreed to do it, but it felt like using to me.
posted by Miko at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Jalliah, your dad and mine, both. I called it stalking and my dad and I just shared a "yeah, that's it." look. He's 92, and thinks Trump is like Mussolini in his body language.
posted by datawrangler at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mirror image: Trump lying, Clinton telling it like it is.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


The most important thing I learned tonight is that the Presidential Whatever Commission on Debate Whatevers has to tear this whole shit up and start over. Moderators need to be able to cut mics and hold candidates to the time limits. If they don't answer the questions, they get one chance to be reminded that they didn't answer, then they should be skipped for the next question. If, like Trump, they ignore the rules, electrical shocks should be administered, starting with a little 9 volt battery charge, ending with "medium well."

At least some of these suggestions are serious.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


No Gunshow Poophole
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's leaning into throwing his political opponent into jail.

Fuck him. Fuck him and everything he stands for.
posted by Talez at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


The bar is still set crazy low for Donald. He s incoherent on policy issues, offers no plans, but he didn't grope Hillary on stage, so he must have prepped.
posted by theora55 at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


When the baseline expectation would be that he'd pick up a folding chair and attack Clinton with it I guess not physically assaulting Hillary might be seen as doing better than expected.

Seriously after that first debate merely showing up and actually going for minutes at a time without going off on a deranged rant would be seen as an improvement.
posted by vuron at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Talez, thank you for hitting so hard on Trump's disgusting political prosecution threat. I agree that that ought to be the number one takeaway from this debate.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


MSNBC polling results wrapup (who won the debate):

YouGov:
Clinton 47%
Trump: 42%

CNN:
Clinton: 57%
Trump: 34% (but 63% say he exceeded expectations)
posted by zachlipton at 8:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Tiffany successfully sidesteps a tick tac attack.
posted by cytherea at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Well, Trump did better than I expected by virtue of not forcing the Secret Service to swarm the stage. Still not a win for him, though.
posted by ckape at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Do the Bill Accusers kind of feel used now? Ok, great, now go home? What was that all about?

Yeah, I've been struggling with this, as we have been discussing here, because on the one hand, I don't want to dismiss their accusations. On the other hand, helping Trump as revenge is not going to help them, and is going to hurt a lot of other women.

I would like them to get the chance for justice, if it has been denied to them. Trump is not the guy that's going to make that happen.
posted by emjaybee at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


(but 63% say he exceeded expectations)

"He didn't step on his own dick. Win!"
posted by tonycpsu at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's not hard to exceed expectations when the expectation is that you'll break down on live television and begin weeping and begging for the sweet, sweet release of death.
posted by Justinian at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gunshow Poophole is the name of my next band.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


Moderators need to be able to cut mics and hold candidates to the time limits.

Never gonna happen. If they tried it, we just wouldn't have debates. They're not required, and campaigns will not agree to this.
posted by Miko at 8:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]



Having a beer with Hillary Clinton would be a riot. I'd be afraid to drink water with Donald Trump.

I'd never drink anything that Trump had handled. You can probably guess why.

Hillary being the president is not going to totally shred Mr Trump; billionaire Trump could come in handy for some of her plans during her term.

It's cute that you think he's actually a billionaire.

Clinton drinks Crown Royal and probably saves the purple bags because they might be useful.

Well, what else do most people put their RPG dice in?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [46 favorites]


Talez, thank you for hitting so hard on Trump's disgusting political prosecution threat. I agree that that ought to be the number one takeaway from this debate.

I was worried I'm just being a broken record. But for me it's just unfathomable. Absolutely fucking unfathomable. I don't think I'll ever stop being angry or upset that this petty little pissant has now left this permanent stain on the Republic.
posted by Talez at 8:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [49 favorites]


Kelly did a "told you so" dance about Trump's sexism sinking him on Fox. Man she hates his guts.
posted by charred husk at 8:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Of course he did 'better than expected'. The bar is so low that if he shows up he did better than expected. I'd have given even odds that he was gonna shit himself or have a real breakdown onstage, if not actually discorporate into a group of foot-high imps no longer able to conform to the shape of a man like in Evil Dead 2. But no, he wasn't wearing his pants on his head, so he did better than expected. God Bless America.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Clinton live on MSNBC begging the press pool on her plane to shut up so they can take off and start serving drinks.

She has two very long election threads to catch up on, and you know how flaky Gogo wifi can be at 30,000 feet.
posted by rokusan at 8:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [55 favorites]


I hate to say it, but I think you have to have a little faith in people that they can think "she did worse than I expected, he did better" and still think "he didn't do well, he doesn't seem like someone who should be president". Worrying about the initial perception of the debate is just a way to artificially inflate your personal xCPL.
posted by skewed at 8:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kellyanne "watched a different debate" when Wolf showed her the poll results. I guess that's how you get through your miserable existence, Kellyanne!
posted by TwoStride at 8:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


After all the sexual assault stuff from Friday anytime I see a bit where Trump is getting handsy with his daughters I get some serious heebie-jeebies.

I really, really hope for their sake that his apparent belief in the ownership of women's bodies didn't extend to his progeny.
posted by vuron at 8:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Cognitive dissonance is the backbone of the campaign, so...
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:50 PM on October 9, 2016


Indeed. I truly cannot fathom what that little show was about, especially since when they introduced them we must all have felt certain that he was going to gesture to them in the crowd and talk about them at some point during the debate. I think his campaign thought that moment was going to be really big for him. But it never happened. It seemed to fizzle purposelessly. And I hesitate to weigh in on what they were thinking or why they agreed to do it, but it felt like using to me.

I think Trump was actually rattled by having Mark Cuban in the audience at the first debate and figured just having them there would mess with Hillary, because he can't conceive of a world outside of his own experience.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Chuck Todd:

"He fired up his base. But the next 48 hours are going to be terrible for Trump. This is a terrible 30 second clip debate for him."

Trump's base is literally all he has left. The RNC is finished with him, the downticket GOP are dumping him at a historic rate, and, after tonight's rebarbative performance, independent voters are not going to be flocking to him. Then again, his base is all he needs to torch the Republican Party this election. From here on out, it's going to be "jail her", "rapist enabler", "the Devil", etc., etc., interspersed with Trump's Dolchstoßlegenden about the Republican establishment.

And people wonder why Trump took such pleasure reciting Al Wilson's "The Snake" at his rallies...
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Vox: Donald Trump’s threat to imprison Hillary Clinton is a threat to democracy

Slate: Well, Donald Trump Just Threatened to Throw Hillary Clinton in Jail
posted by Talez at 8:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


Wow, Kellyanne Conway's "unless" moment was pure gold.
posted by Miko at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't think I'll ever stop being angry or upset that this petty little pissant has now left this permanent stain on the Republic.

Absolutely. There needs to be party rule reform, debate reform, everything that can plausibly be done to defend us against men like this. The best lesson of 2016 is ubi pus, ibi evacua.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really think the polling that shows Trump doing better than expected is him being damned with faint praise. A lot of people expected him to storm off stage or melt down and call Clinton or a moderator a bitch or worse. He sure exceeded that expectation.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Good: Buzzfeed already has the roundup of People concerned about Donald's creeping up on Hillary.
posted by TwoStride at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Well, what else do most people put their RPG dice in?

Alea arantiaca est.
posted by biogeo at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the YouGov poll: Women thought Clinton won by 50-38%, while men thought Trump won by 46-43%.

Men: Terrible people.
posted by Justinian at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [81 favorites]


Keep humping that chair.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I know we all heard it, but I just have to come back and say a big WTF to Trump on Islamophobia. He stood there and told this woman that Muslims have to report each other. That was his answer. That was an incredible low.
posted by zachlipton at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [77 favorites]


I'm surprised (but thrilled) that the takeaway is that she won -- from where I was sitting, he was spouting total bullshit, was looming and petulant and fidgeting and couldn't even answer the "can you be disciplined" question in a way that showed any discipline... but he was absolutely better than he was in the first debate. He mostly moderated his tone. His final answer was dignified. He got applause (WTF) and spoke definitively - and instead of lying about himself, which is easily fact-checkable by people who love him, he mostly lied about her, using things which people who support him already believe. So I thought for sure they'd still call it a win for him. The first debate he was totally unhinged. This one he kept it together.

So I guess count me among the people who thought he did better than expected and still lost.
posted by Mchelly at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I've been struggling with this, as we have been discussing here, because on the one hand, I don't want to dismiss [Bill's victims'] accusations. On the other hand, helping Trump as revenge is not going to help them...

There's a lot of talk this election about being stuck between two bad choices, but those women actually personify it in a way that isn't even hyperbolic.

Accept (even just for the sake of an argument, if you must) that it's simply true that Bill assaulted them and Hillary covered it up and/or shamed them for it, and then give them a choice between her or... well, Trump.

I mean... that's an unimaginably bad choice.
posted by rokusan at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Marshall: In The Abuser's House
The whole debate, rancid and intense, felt like an ordeal to live through just watching it on TV.

I don't think we can discuss this debate as citizens, take stock of it as a country, without noting that this is certainly the first time one candidate has openly threatened to jail the other candidate. Trump said openly that he would instruct the Justice Department to open a new investigation of Clinton and that he'd make sure it ended with her imprisonment. That's something we expect it kleptocracies and thin democracies where electoral defeat can mean exile, imprisonment or death.

Such a ferocious claim, one that puts our whole constitutional order on its head, is not something that can be easily undone. That's the ranting threat of a would-be strongman and dictator The threat itself is like a bell that can't be un-rung. Through the course of what was often an ugly debate, I was thinking a lot of the destructiveness of this entire campaign, virtually all of which stems from Trump's transgressive, norm-demolishing behavior. It's a topic we'll have to return to in the ed blog and one the country is going to need to wrestle with. None of this is going to disappear after November 8th. These are slashing wounds to the country's political fabric that will at best leave tremendous scar tissue we'll still see for decades.

So did that caustic manner matter? It's a little hard for me to figure that out simply because we know Trump is like this. It's hard to see how anyone is going to be surprised. By any pre-2016 standard we know, the entirety of angry, blustering manner would be fatal for a presidential candidate. But we've been living with this guy for a year and a half. We all have a little bit of the trauma of living in the home of an abuser now. We're accustomed to it. To a degree it starts to feel normal. My best guess is that through all the muck of this debate it will matter simply because it confirms what people already know.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [65 favorites]


There were two jaw-dropping moments for me in this debate, both from Trump. First he threatened to imprison his political opponent. Jaw dropped. Then, he threw his running mate under the bus, "we haven't talked, we don't agree". I'm agape in horror at the most horrific election in history and i hugged my wife a lot to get through it. :(
posted by dis_integration at 8:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Only 46% of men are terrible Justinian

#NotAllMen
posted by vuron at 8:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


If you're an anchor-level TV talking head, you see Clinton answering a question about emails and you jot down "debate = DRAW!" in your Serious Analysis notepad. But all the substantive stuff to chew on is about how dishonest and terrible Trump was
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tonight, I am grateful for:
1. You guys
2. This nice and very necessary mug of Tension Tamer Tea
3. Martha Raddatz

Peace out, y'all. See you tomorrow morning for whatever fuckery comes next.
posted by ourobouros at 8:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


From the commentary here and the clips I've now gone and watched if I had got that question I would have said yes because he did do better then I expected. He sucked, said some amazingly awful and crazy things but he did that better then I thought he would. That isn't saying a whole lot because hell I would have probably had better answers and done better then him if the debate people stopped me on the street and said hey you wanna be in a debate tonight?
posted by Jalliah at 8:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Winning candidates don't threaten to put opponents in jail. Presidents don't threaten prosecution of individuals. Trump is wrong on this." --@AriFleischer
posted by zachlipton at 8:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [45 favorites]


Let's recap! Hilary is:

1. Responsible for everything the US Govt did in the last 30 years
2. The actual devil
3. Full of hate
4. Also responsible for ISIS and birtherism somehow


Does that cover it?
posted by emjaybee at 8:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [42 favorites]


Only 46% of men are terrible Justinian

#NotAllMen

Yes, this is fantastic, finally we have a quantification.
posted by biogeo at 8:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


Kellyanne "watched a different debate" when Wolf showed her the poll results. I guess that's how you get through your miserable existence, Kellyanne!

I would not be surprised if she literally just popped in a tape of the first Obama-Romney debate or something.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's the mouthpiece of the Bush White House selling the Iraq War, so perhaps he has a bit of a vested interest in the subject, but still...
posted by zachlipton at 8:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Melania wore a $1,100 Gucci "pussy-bow silk crepe de chine" shirt tonight.

That's... actually... wow.

Melania's got some serious, um... dammit. Some chutzpah!
posted by rokusan at 8:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I sort of expected Trump not to even show up and for him to be found hiding in the trunk of a car several hours later
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Only 46% of men are terrible Justinian

Some, I assume, are good people.
posted by rokusan at 9:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


"MODERATOR: did you tweet about porno at 3 AM
TRUMP: (wisely) Benghazi" --@Papapishu
posted by zachlipton at 9:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


PETULANT MANCHILD/PENCE (IF HE'S STILL UP FOR IT) 2016!
posted by uosuaq at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


@theLindyWest: "she doesn't quit, she doesn't give up"
YOU HAVE LITERALLY BEEN SHITTING ALL OVER HER "STAMINA" FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS YOU FUCKING FUCK-SACK
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [83 favorites]


I think part of the perception of him doing better than expected is that he hit his peak crazy ranting stride RIGHT out of the gate, then seemed to loosen up a bit after he got that out of his system. First debate was the opposite so that debate ended on a worse note for him.

Which sucks, because I really wish people left with a fresh impression of Anderson Cooper calling him out in no uncertain terms about admitting to sexual assault.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Some of my best friends are men...
posted by vuron at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


So that "How dumb is this country?" line from trump is probably already in the editing bay at Clinton HQ being crafted into an attack ad, right?
posted by codacorolla at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Jeet Heer: Donald Trump Is Going to Tear Everything Down With Him. Sunday's debate shows he has nothing left but anger and a lust for revenge.
Here was a truly disturbing moment: A political candidate for the highest office in America was stating that his goal is not just to defeat his rival in the ballot box, but actually to imprison her. Trump was of course playing to his base, the riled-up GOP voters who shout “lock her up” at his rallies. But in throwing red meat to the most incensed part of his electorate, Trump revealed both his strategy for the evening and the likely path of the closing phase of the presidential election.

Trump has decided on a “burn it down” strategy because that’s the one way he can hope to keep together his splintering Republican Party support. Which tells us two things: One, Trump has given up hopes of appealing to a wider electorate. Two, his pitch, from here on out, will be a purely negative one.
posted by homunculus at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


From the YouGov poll: Women thought Clinton won by 50-38%, while men thought Trump won by 46-43%.

Men: Terrible people.

I'm thinking that many women may have been turned off by his threatening behavior and unfortunately many men don't even notice it because it's not something they have to deal with as much.
posted by Jalliah at 9:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


god that last "question". Say something nice about your opponent. What is this, marriage counseling? A corporate training trust-building exercise?
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Like, yall, ok, if you were expecting him to literally shit his pants, punch her in the face, or call her a slur, then sure, he "exceeded expectations". But if you were waiting to see if he made a goddamn lick of sense, you were surely disappointed, because he absolutely did not.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [34 favorites]


I'd never drink anything that Trump had handled. You can probably guess why.

One of my most bad-ass, superhero favorite Metafilter comments is when Greg Nog passes out in an alleyway with gigantic jars of honey in either hand.

I can just imagine the roofie-S.O.B. gazing in guilt-addled wonder as Our Hero downs that delicious if suspect pint of craft draught all in a few gulps, has a pleasant evening at the bar, gets his giant jars of honey, and leaves as if nothing ever happened.

Some things you endure because you legit are that strong, and let others who need to know that strength... so when he awoke, both jars intact, he went home to make mead.

Even TicTacs have diasvowed Donald Trump. He's utterly not up to the two-jars-of-honey test.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]



I have a question. Many people here (possibly rightly) wanted Obama to bring war crimes and other charges against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld once he took office. If Obama would have made the same charges against those people at a debate as Trump did about Clinton tonight I imagine it would have been welcomed or at least tolerated here.

I think that the historical response to this idea has been that through the electoral process we achieve effective coup d'etat every four or eight years. We don't need to overthrow and imprison the prior regime because they're already history. Once they're gone we're supposed to come together as a nation and look forward, not backward.

But even if Obama had gone after Bush, prosecuting the crimes of the prior regime is entirely different than threatening your current opponent. Bush and Obama were not rivals. But Clinton is Trump's direct adversary, so his threat reads like revenge for daring to challenge him. That's deeply fascistic behavior. Plus if Trump really believes Clinton belongs in jail then that remains true even if she's elected, right? It means, even if she's elected, that the true patriots will make sure she's prevented, by any means necessary, from assuming office. And all the people who enabled her could be viewed as accessories to a criminal enterprise, and deserving of being "purged." That could easily lead down the road to sedition.
posted by xigxag at 9:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ah shit. Ms localhuman just discovered I share my birthday with Eric Trump. As if my night wasn't already terrible enough having seen the normalization of strongman despotism, now I have to try and sleep on that too
posted by localhuman at 9:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, for all the "he did better than expected" talk I think we have to realize that what a lot of us expected was that he would honk her boob, throttle her, and then collapse to the ground SLUDding all over himself. Compared to that, "despotic and factually incorrect" is a step up.

I am driving across the state today so I have seen and heard none of it. From y'all's description it sounds like a cross between Animal House and an exorcism.
posted by KathrynT at 9:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


A few links of some Trump-looming levity.
posted by sevenofspades at 9:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


🎤Islands in the stream🎤
posted by Countess Elena at 9:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


@kenjennings: The undecideds are in the parking lot trying to decide if they feel like going for pizza or just licking vomit off the side of a dumpster.

Such lols
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [66 favorites]


I actually do think the bar he passed was not laying hands on her. He did strangle a couple chairs, but that was in the background.
posted by uosuaq at 9:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Tiffany successfully sidesteps a tick tac attack.

Wow, she did.

I really don't pay much attention to pol's kids any more but she's ex-wife 2's? Right before she was probably over telling Hillary, "My mom and I are voting for you."
posted by NorthernLite at 9:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


SNL has a week-plus free till the next debate. Alex Baldwin can very definitely do the pervy creep on Kate McKinnon next Saturday.
posted by holgate at 9:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Say something nice about your opponent" "It's pretty fucking nice that he won't be President"
posted by jason_steakums at 9:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [33 favorites]


collapse to the ground SLUDding all over himself

I googled this, but... no luck. What is Sludding? is it a city in Syria?
posted by dis_integration at 9:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


From Keepin' It 1600: "Old men don't get better. They get worse."
posted by holgate at 9:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


It irritates me that people think debates are win/lose, or lose/win, zero sum. You're not playing against each other, you're playing against the house. The object is to get people to vote for you and/or not your opponent, but with undecided and tentative voters in the mix, both candidates can win and both can lose.

In that model, I think Trump won (however that's not saying much, since he's in free-fall and may have only 'won' back a fraction of what he was about to lose). Clinton, eh... about breaks even. Didn't exactly pull any new votes, but did fine.
posted by ctmf at 9:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have only had two drinks why am i this drunk
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hillary is giving Turkey the middle finger in this debate talking about arming the Kurds.

There's a comprehensible strategic shift there that might be wrong, but it's a concrete idea at least.

My gf and I both sat up wide-eyed and blurted "holy shit" when she talked about that. I lean toward agreeing with her, but I realize that's an incredibly complicated issue so I'd really like to hear more before my opinion is solid.

In any other election, a statement like that would be a Big Fucking Deal. With things as they stand now, I'm not sure anyone but some back-bencher at Foreign Policy will write about it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Hillary was much too kind to the Elephant Murderer and the Leopard Killer. Barron is only a kid. He seems like he's the ASD Spectrum. I don't know how I feel about Melanija.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


As a fellow chubby nerd, I can't stop laughing at this.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


<tinfoil hat>Claiming he would jail his political opponent was a set-up, so that when he is jailed for rape he can claim it is all a politically motivated attack.</tinfoil hat>
posted by fings at 9:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


There is some really annoying drunken-sounding heckling going on behind the CNN desk, but I swear someone has a sign that says, "Fat Check Him." Heh.
posted by TwoStride at 9:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


wow Rachel Maddow just asked Chris Matthews if Rudy is "nuts" now because he seems "off" whenever he is interviewed about Trump.
posted by gatorae at 9:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]



The looming thing was 100% Trump trying to use his size to physically intimidate her and to reinforce in the minds of viewers that he's physically dominant. The guy is 100% cheap psychology tricks but Clinton's been around some of the best in the world and can hold her own.

It will be interesting to see if he tries the physical intimidation angle again during debate 3.
posted by vuron at 9:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


I googled this, but... no luck. What is Sludding? is it a city in Syria?

I think SLUDing. Stands for "Salivation, Lacrimation, Urination, Defecation". Symptoms of serious nervous system dysfunction caused by various drug overdoses, exposure to nerve gas, or toxic waste.

I was going to say we don't need to add that to the Election FAQ, but this election...
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Another nice thing about Donald is all that super nice legwork he's putting in towards getting Hillary a better Congress to work with.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


wow Rachel Maddow just asked Chris Matthews if Rudy is "nuts" now because he seems "off" whenever he is interviewed about Trump.

Two more people who will get "special prosecutors" from Attorney General Giuliani for breaking the brand new Lèse-majesté laws.
posted by Talez at 9:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Maddow to Matthews: this is a blunt question and you don't have to answer, but watching you interview Giuliani, he seems "a little off to me. He seems nuts. He doesn't seem that cogent and coherent...Do you feel he's a different man than he used to be?"

Matthews hems a bit, but agrees Giuliani didn't have his usual gravitas. Says he normally admires Giuliani's blunt style (like on 9/11), that he tells it like it is, but "what we're getting now is flackery, pure and simply flackery...There's something that's not quite spontaneous or credible in it."
posted by zachlipton at 9:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just read this upthread:
Here was a truly disturbing moment: A political candidate for the highest office in America was stating that his goal is not just to defeat his rival in the ballot box, but actually to imprison her. Trump was of course playing to his base, the riled-up GOP voters who shout “lock her up” at his rallies. But in throwing red meat to the most incensed part of his electorate, Trump revealed both his strategy for the evening and the likely path of the closing phase of the presidential election.
12:04. I'm calling it. Because I was so goggle-eyed during the debate when he talked about jailing Hillary that it didn't even register for me that according to his rallies, step 1 is LOCK HER UP, but step 2 is SHOOT HER FOR TREASON BECAUSE OF THOSE EMAILS.

I am suddenly legit scared for her life right now. If he wins, not because of stochastic terrorism. And for anybody out there shaking their heads and thinking I'm panic-mongering, let me look you in the eye and say, "seriously?"
posted by instamatic at 9:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


I plan to ask every talking head that gave anything up to Trump whether they thought he answered more than one question (the final one) coherently and to be specific.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


#MuslimsReportStuff
posted by RobotHero at 9:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


I think Mr. T has breathing problems requiring a professional style mask with maybe even oxygen at night, at least a C-pap mask. There is no harm in taking care of one's self, but I think he is not particularly well, and combined with germophobia, then yes, he is a stay at home person for now, because people would see what he needs to stay alive and on top of his game, what ever that game is. He seemed quite broad tonight, cartoonists have imaged this, but he seemed in need of leaning on that stool, and would not sit on it, it might have been a little narrow for him. I think this campaign is stressful for him, and I would not place bets on him surviving it. He is showing off his children, as they are his legacy, putting them in the spotlight because he is on a short list. All the oil money in the world kept Cheney alive, I don't think this is going to work for Trump. I can't for the life of me understand why he is wasting our collective time, except to show off his kids, to set them up to take over his businesses in his absence.
posted by Oyéah at 9:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, what's going on in Pence HQ right now? Is he writing his resignation letter or just re-reading one he already wrote? How does their campaign survive "He and I haven't spoken, and I disagree" on a practical level?
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


tonycpsu, I was so sure that was going to be the balloon tweet. Hits my funny bone so hard, I can't help it.
posted by ctmf at 9:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I need to report I saw an orange haired man on my TV scaring children #Muslimsreportstuff" --@Deanofcomedy
posted by zachlipton at 9:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Tiffany turn away was masterful.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Aside from sounding like something Idi Amin would say, "when my opponent loses I will jail her" better get iffy Democrats out to vote like nothing else
posted by theodolite at 9:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


#MuslimsReportStuff

Thank you RobotHero. This is amazing. I needed this.
posted by Jalliah at 9:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


When Trump said he'd get "my attorney general" to prosecute her, I was hoping Clinton would say "Do you mean the Attorney General you would appoint after being elected, or one of the current ones that you've already bought?"


(RE: Tiffany Trump) I really don't pay much attention to pol's kids any more but she's ex-wife 2's? Right before she was probably over telling Hillary, "My mom and I are voting for you."

I'm just fantasizing here, but Clinton's "What I like about Trump is his children" line will seem absolutely brilliant if one of his kids defects and endorses her in a day or two.
posted by mmoncur at 9:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


Tomorrow, @onlxn will be doing a second edition of #GiveMoreThanTrump, with donations to RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network).
posted by zachlipton at 9:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think SLUDing. Stands for "Salivation, Lacrimation, Urination, Defecation". Symptoms of serious nervous system dysfunction caused by various drug overdoses, exposure to nerve gas, or toxic waste.

Yes, that was what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
posted by KathrynT at 9:17 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


As of an hour ago, Scott Dworkin was still standing by his earlier claim that Pence is out. I still haven't seen anyone else say anything about it though (nothing that wasn't sourced from him, at least).
posted by danb at 9:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence's Monday Fundraiser Cancelled.

Leave him, Pence. Get your last shred of dignity back. Let Trump flame out. He cannot be allowed to continue as a coherent campaign.
posted by Talez at 9:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


So, what's going on in Pence HQ right now?

As has been previously reported, Pence is eminently competent but not smart. It is up to him to work out whether he thinks he has more of a GOP future as a Trump company man (which, see previous) than as a "fuck it, I'm done" GOPer.
posted by holgate at 9:19 PM on October 9, 2016


Re: #MuslimsReportStuff, Hillary's biggest misstep of the night might have been basically echoing Trump on that "see something, say something" nonsense.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Now that Trump didn't melt down, they're all confused about what to do next. Maybe not quit? Take back my non-endorsement? Argh, fucking asshole Trump!
posted by ctmf at 9:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mike Pence cancels N.J. Trump fundraiser scheduled for Monday in Ocean County

TRENTON — Donald Trump's running mate, Mike Pence, has canceled his planned visit to New Jersey scheduled for Monday, several GOP sources tell NJ Advance Media.

Pence, the governor of Indiana, was scheduled to appear at a fundraiser in Toms River hosted by the Ocean County Republican Organization. The sources who said Pence won't be showing requested anonymity because they are not directly connected to the Trump campaign.
posted by Jalliah at 9:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am wondering if they - Pence, McCain, etc - know what is coming or are hearing rumors about the next oppo about to drop.
posted by asteria at 9:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mike Pence right now.
posted by Justinian at 9:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


Initial polling seems to suggest a pretty big Clinton win, especially among women, which is really good news.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't know if I should hope for this or not. There are bigger barnstormers that Trump could replace him with, Giuliani would do it, hell David Duke would do it
posted by Countess Elena at 9:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary's biggest misstep of the night might have been basically echoing Trump on that "see something, say something" nonsense.

This is America's ongoing sin. I was on the Twitters with Anil Dash about how a strand of polling that breaks down white Americans' ethnic origin is tapping into "how far back in your family history were your ancestors treated as foreign interlopers" and brown Americans are still treated as foreign interlopers whether their parents came from Latin America or south Asia or the Middle East, and black Americans are treated as interlopers even if their American heritage goes back to a slave ship in the 1700s.
posted by holgate at 9:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


I met the guy running against Rob Bishop in Northern Utah, today. He literally got up from the table and walked away quickly when one woman expressed her concerns about polygamy. He said is Mormon, but not a polygamist. He is a very pro environment guy, very likeable, a Osteopath, yes, crazy for bones. No, but that is a down race that might be something to fund, if you live in that district. He seemed OK to me, better than Bishop who lines his pockets with mostly out of state monies, from special interests, generally opposed to any environmental concern.
posted by Oyéah at 9:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I dunno, my list of other people who often appear "a little nuts, a little off" includes Chris Matthews.
posted by rokusan at 9:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Giuliani would do it, hell David Duke would do it

Bonus: the actual explosion of Chris Christie's head
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 9:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


I was kind of hoping this debate would be seen as a clear win for Trump, so that some of the Republicans who un-endorsed him could change their mind and re-endorse and we could call them giant hypocrites.
posted by mmoncur at 9:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


My secret hope: Pense drops out, Trump taps David Duke as VP, there are no more illusions left, Trump goes down in history on his own personal Titanic where no one can say it wasn't all his own doing.

My worry: Pense drops out, Trump taps Giuliani as VP, suddenly people say his campaign has "new life". I still think they'd tank, but Giuliani is another 'everyone knows what to expect so the shock-factor of anything he says or does doesn't shock anymore'.

I'd be fine if he went with Christie, but I can't see it happening.
posted by Mchelly at 9:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bonus: the actual explosion of Chris Christie's head

The thought of Christie debasing himself for absolutely nothing will never fail to warm my heart.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Nazlinspired: #MuslimsReportStuff every year I steal the dark chocolate from my children's trick or treat loot #debate
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Chris Christie is the Prime Minister from the first episode of Black Mirror who had sex with the pig on live television after the hostage had already been released.
posted by Justinian at 9:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


I think this debate is the worst possible result for Republicans. Good enough to keep him from dropping out, but bad enough that it doesn't help him and in fact damages him further over the next week. And makes him double down on the base strategy that turns off everyone else.
posted by chris24 at 9:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


Hillary's biggest misstep of the night might have been basically echoing Trump on that "see something, say something" nonsense.

I agree. I think what she was trying to say somewhat was that we need to not turn away the vast majority of Muslims who are with us and horrified by terrorism, and that Trump's own words are doing a great disservice to that effort. That's a bit of a subtle point, and she was a bit clumsy in making it, where the main takeaway still involved Muslims being "eyes and ears." She let Trump frame the question with his response. I really do wish she went a little deeper on the "what are we going to do to fight hate against Muslims" issue, which was the heart of the question, not ISIS or reporting people.

Here's her answer in full from the rush transcript:
HC: Thank you for asking your question, and I've heard this question from a lot of Muslim Americans across our country. Because unfortunately, there's been a lot of very divisive, dark things said about Muslims.

And even someone like the young man who sacrificed himself defending our country from the United States army has been subject to attack by Donald. I want to say just a couple of things. First, we've had Muslims in America since George Washington. And we've had many successful Muslims.

We just lost a particular well-known one with Muhammad Ali. My vision of America is an America where everyone has a place. If you're willing to work hard, you do your part, you contribute to the community. That's what America is. That's what we want America to be for, for our children and grandchildren. It's also very short-sighted and even dangerous. To be engaging in the kind of rhetoric that Donald has about Muslims.

We need American Muslims to be part of our eyes and ears on our front lines. I've worked with a lot of different Muslim groups around America. I've met with a lot of them and heard how important it is for them to feel they are wanted and included and part of our country, part of our homeland security and that's what I want to see. It's also important I intend to defeat ISIS.

To do so, in a coalition with majority Muslim nations. Right now, a lot of those nations are hearing what Donald says and wondering, “why should we cooperate with the Americans?” and this is a gift to ISIS and the terrorists. Violent jihadist terrorist. We are not at war with Islam. And it is a mistake and it plays into the hands of the terrorists to act as though we are. So, I want a country where citizens like you and your family are just as welcome as anyone else.
posted by zachlipton at 9:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


The whole thing is like a gangster movie script that can't get anyone to fund it. No one will ever top The Sopranos, or The Departed.
posted by Oyéah at 9:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mchelly: My worry: Pense drops out, Trump taps Giuliani as VP, suddenly people say his campaign has "new life". I still think they'd tank, but Giuliani is another 'everyone knows what to expect so the shock-factor of anything he says or does doesn't shock anymore'.

Nothing involving Giuliani can be described as having "new life" except maybe in some zombie horror movie sense. That man is just a talking political corpse whose brains were eaten by 9/11.
posted by Superplin at 9:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oyéah, you're really dangerously close to all the Trump-people providing online diagnoses of how Hillary has been near death for years. Maybe we should be better?
posted by rokusan at 9:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think SLUDing. Stands for "Salivation, Lacrimation, Urination, Defecation". Symptoms of serious nervous system dysfunction caused by various drug overdoses, exposure to nerve gas, or toxic waste.

Yes, that was what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

I learned the term from Neal Stephenson's "Zodiac", a favorite comfort read about, well, toxic waste.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Well it's more like the hostage was released and Christie, a day later, shrugs and heads to a nearby barnyard.
posted by mochapickle at 9:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Giuliani makes Trump look self-possessed. Or, to rephrase, Giuliani looks possessed.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 9:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


trump needed a VP that 1) gives the mainstream a figleaf to vote for him, and 2) is boring enough to not add more fuel to the fire. Imagine the fucking oppo file on Rudy Giuliani. Imagine Giuliani having even more chances to step in dog shit as a surrogate. Pence should relish this moment, because it's the singular time in his life he'll be the best choice for something.
posted by codacorolla at 9:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Jenna Maroney as his VP.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Accept (even just for the sake of an argument, if you must) that it's simply true that Bill assaulted them and Hillary covered it up and/or shamed them for it, and then give them a choice between her or... well, Trump.

Juanita Brodderick alleges assault. Paula Jones does not, nor does any other woman that I know of. It may or may not be true.

But the only person claiming HRC covered it up or shamed the accusers is Trump, and other crazy right and left wingers. There is zero evidence for it.

Nobody is blaming Melania Trump for Trump's on-the-record admission of sexual assault. Similarly,
if Bill Clinton has committed sexual assult, Hillary Clinton should not be held accountable for it.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 9:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


> Re: #MuslimsReportStuff, Hillary's biggest misstep of the night might have been basically echoing Trump on that "see something, say something" nonsense

I agree. His answer was terrible, but hers was not great -- and it wasn't a tricky question.

Surprisingly, I think his answer to the final question was the better of the two (if we ignore the context of him having ranked on her "stamina" until now).
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:39 PM on October 9, 2016


The problem with Giuliani being the VP pick is that, in the admittedly small likelihood that Trump wins and wins New York, the New York electors could not vote for both Trump and Giuliani on the ticket.
posted by dhens at 9:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also, as I understand it, at this point it's up to the party to nominate a replacement. I can't even imagine anyone willing to jump on that grenade.
posted by codacorolla at 9:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I worked in a trauma hospital for 17 years, I was just watching him tonight. You can ask for my comment to be deleted and this one too, but Trump has a way of projecting onto other people what he does, and maybe what he is. He has been consistent in his projecting. It is OK, apparently for others to offer that he has a drug problem, but he just doesn't seem well to me. I haven't watched TV since 2006, so the last time I saw him running around on Saturday Night Live, he seemed pretty fit. I haven't watched him transit this last decade, so I am new to his appearance. Sorry to offend.
posted by Oyéah at 9:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]



I really hope SNL does something with the lurking and looming. It pretty much writes itself. I've been watching clips and looking at all the tweets about it and it's already like watching an episode.
posted by Jalliah at 9:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


The problem with Giuliani being the VP pick is that, in the admittedly small likelihood that Trump wins and wins New York, the New York electors could not vote for both Trump and Giuliani on the ticket.

If that happens, and they win New York, and that becomes an actual problem I will eat every piece of clothing that I'm wearing right now. Shoes, socks, jeans, t-shirt, underwear. The whole lot.
posted by Talez at 9:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


The 'eyes and ears' thing is a bit eesh because white people aren't mandated from on high to deal with the twentysomething white guy who's inhaled too much *chan and the iffy subreddits and is posting tweets of his ever-expanding gun stash and doesn't like people so much. White manchildren get radicalised every day in America with the assistance of a coterie of arseholes who believe the same shit as them and near-instant access to deadly weapons of significant destruction.

But that's not going to be a presidential-election issue, just as "hey, brown people of indeterminate legal status pick our lettuce so we can pay $1.50 for it at the grocery store" isn't a presidential-election issue. Americans, en very masse, don't want to have to think about that shit too hard.
posted by holgate at 9:42 PM on October 9, 2016 [47 favorites]


He mentioned that Canadians are coming over to the US for big medical expenses. My Canadian husband is laughing his ass off.

This is true for me as a Canadian living in the USA. I have never before had such big medical expenses! My medical expenses here are the biggest! And I have decent insurance!

I tell my friends back in Canada and the UK what I have to both do and pay for health care and they just laugh like I am Donald level crazy talking.
posted by srboisvert at 9:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


@jbarro
Is anyone surprised that, forced to choose between Mike Pence and Vladimir Putin, Trump chose Putin?
posted by chris24 at 9:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [64 favorites]


The problem with Giuliani being the VP pick is that, in the admittedly small likelihood that Trump wins and wins New York, the New York electors could not vote for both Trump and Giuliani on the ticket.

If that happens, and they win New York, and that becomes an actual problem I will eat every piece of clothing that I'm wearing right now. Shoes, socks, jeans, t-shirt, underwear. The whole lot.

Yeah, this would actually only be a problem if New York was necessary for getting Trumpiani to 270 EV.
posted by dhens at 9:43 PM on October 9, 2016


Can someone stun Corey Lewandowski on air and spoon feed his brains to him while he talks?
Would that be inappropriate?
posted by angrybear at 9:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Exeunt, pursued by an angry bear.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump and Giuliani on the ticket Not gonna happen, and Trump is such a bitter and poison pill; I can't see New Yorkers choking it down. Trump has stiffed people all over hell, and New Yorkers aren't going to vote for him.
posted by Oyéah at 9:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


my favorite sick burn of the night: this close-crop of Trump's head with a particularly relevant word on the backdrop
posted by karayel at 9:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


This is true for me as a Canadian living in the USA.

The things people put up with for the real version of Netflix.
posted by Talez at 9:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


Exeunt, pursued by an angry bear.

Hillary, pursued by an angry Donald.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:46 PM on October 9, 2016


At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump picked Jenna Maroney as his VP.

It would immediately raise his standing with the gay community. But then he could replace Pence with anything, nail clippings, dryer lint, a pile of dog shit to get the same result.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


He mentioned that Canadians are coming over to the US for big medical expenses. My Canadian husband is laughing his ass off.


Every single Canadian I've known didn't become a US citizen, even after living here for years, solely because they didn't want to give up their Canadian health care, just in case.
posted by bongo_x at 9:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Oh, Billy Bush is suspended for now.
posted by Talez at 9:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am down and scared and disoriented after this — perhaps the pure physical menace that Trump projects will start driving votes.

But imagine if we had this debate without the weekend tapes. Terrifying.
posted by argybarg at 9:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald not peeing his pants or attempting to strangle HRC keeps the Trumptanic at the top of the ticket.

All other GOP candidates have to do the calculus on how badly they need the crazy Trump base vs the votes of everyone else that needs them to repudiate Trump to earn their vote. I'm betting a lot of them suck at math.

On preview: what chris24 said
posted by strange chain at 9:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


White manchildren get radicalised every day in America

Fabulous point. As a slight tangent, regardless of its relationship as confession to sexual assault or not, the Access Hollywood tape is showing Trump radicalizing deplorables.
posted by XMLicious at 9:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary's got this. I'm 100% certain she will win.
posted by mochapickle at 9:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, Canadians going to the US for healthcare is pure poppycock outside of paying for dubious/scam treatments in the US. Or for things like MRI scans (of dubious quality/utility).

Or for less scammy ops, it's a waypoint to a clinic in Mexico - which can be ok if you vet their staff but its mostly for heavy duty dentistry stuff.
posted by porpoise at 9:54 PM on October 9, 2016


The 'Canadian health care is death panels and waiting lists' thing, along with pretty much everything else he said, just seemed to be Trump reciting the right-wing mantra that his supporters have already fully bought into.
posted by Flashman at 9:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


But imagine if we had this debate without the weekend tapes. Terrifying.

I really think there's too much bedwetting going on here. Trump was downright fucking incoherent. He outright promised to jail Clinton if elected. This is not normal. He's down decisively even before anything in the last 48 hours shows up in the polls, and needed to hit a grand slam to change the direction of the election.

He hit a blooper to short right and got tagged at first, but the runner on base advanced to 2nd. That's not going to win the game when he's down 13-4 in the 7th inning.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [28 favorites]


So in the aftermath of all of this, I'm genuinely terrified of the number of men who continue to minimize Trump's remarks on sexual assault. Denying that it's an important issue, doubling-down that this is how "the real world" works and that no one should be surprised, and most of all sticking to Trump as a viable presidential candidate. Like... it's terrifying you guys. I've never been under any illusions about how little a lot of men think about this stuff, but I guess it being more in the open (and in my face) is just not something I'm ready for. I can't handle this, mentally.
posted by erratic meatsack at 9:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


Every single Canadian I've known didn't become a US citizen, even after living here for years, solely because they didn't want to give up their Canadian health care, just in case.

Same with everyone that I know. My Mom has a cousin who married an American 40 years ago and chose not to because of healthcare.
posted by Jalliah at 9:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Evidence: a call log from convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein- from Donald Trump around the time of one of the underage sex parties #debate
posted by Talez at 9:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


The 'Canadian health care is death panels and waiting lists' thing...

....is pretty much word for word the same poppycock that Bush Jr used during his debates.
posted by rokusan at 9:58 PM on October 9, 2016


One of the things that should get more attention, but won't, is how Trump repeated Russian propoganda about Syria.
posted by asteria at 9:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


Quick question from a non-American: what is actually on the ballot? Just the names of the presidential candidates or their VP running mates as well?
posted by sardonyx at 9:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


This election is teaching us that authors and our guts lie when we want evil to be sophisticated and clever. Hannibal Lector and Milton’s Satan are fictions. Reality gives us Donald Trump.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


@Bencjacobs
"Ben Carson on the Trump tape: "that was a very different time in his life and at that time he was a billionaire playboy"

He was a 59 year old man with a pregnant wife he'd recently married.
posted by chris24 at 9:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [80 favorites]


Both names appear on the ballot, sardonyx.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


One of the things that should get more attention, but won't, is how Trump repeated Russian propoganda about Syria.

Oh, it was not missed.

@jonfavs
"Trump disagreed with his running mate to praise the dictator who's trying to interfere with our election. This is so dangerous."
posted by chris24 at 10:00 PM on October 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


(I swear I googled but nothing comprehensible came back)

I found it pretty quick because I searched for "urbandictionary MAGA"

[real]
posted by ckape at 10:01 PM on October 9, 2016


what is actually on the ballot? Just the names of the presidential candidates or their VP running mates as well?

Interesting issue given the possiblity to last minute changes:
"Electors for Donald Trump: President; Mike Pence: Vice President"

There's ongoing debate about what happens should one of the above withdraw. Tl;dr: no one knows, it'd be a shitshow.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Evidence: a call log from convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein- from Donald Trump around the time of one of the underage sex parties #debate

I can believe there's something to the Epstein allegations, but that tweet is not evidence of much.
posted by zachlipton at 10:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sardonyx -- the full ballot varies by state, county, city and even what part of the city you live in. As an example here's the ballot I'll see on election day.
posted by nathan_teske at 10:02 PM on October 9, 2016


Melania refused to issue joint statement with Trump after tape revelations. I bet she's assembling some fantastic divorce lawyers -- like the best lawyers.
posted by humanfont at 10:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [61 favorites]


Tax expert on MSNBC, after replay of Trump's admission of not paying taxes, in present tense: If he's speaking in present tense, this means he's making much less than he says he does.
posted by mochapickle at 10:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Both names appear on the ballot, sardonyx.

Sometimes with the caveat that the voter is voting for presidential electors for those candidates, not the candidates themselves.

See these Pennsylvania sample ballots.
posted by dhens at 10:02 PM on October 9, 2016


I can believe there's something to the Epstein allegations, but that tweet is not evidence of much.

Trump wasn't in the office.
Epstein was looking for him.
At the time of an underage sex party.
posted by Talez at 10:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's why I asked. I can understand why it would be (nearly) impossible to pull Trump if his name is on the ballot and voting has already started. I couldn't figure out what would happen if the VP pick suddenly quit/was fired if his name was on the ballot as well, whereas if it were just the presidential candidate, I could see how the VP running mate could be replaced.
posted by sardonyx at 10:04 PM on October 9, 2016


@ddale8
"This was the night "lock her up" became official policy."

Yep. Every Republican running should be asked if Clinton should be jailed.
posted by chris24 at 10:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I noticed that there were several times where ABC had a weird super-fast zoom in on Clinton, and now I wonder if that was just because of Trump getting all up in her space.
posted by ckape at 10:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Also how weird is it to hear "Mister" when addressing a candidate rather than the "governor", "senator", etc?
As a populist I should find it heartening but when they say "Mr. Trump" it feels a whole lot less like they are addressing Mr. Smith than Mr. Slugworth.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Every Republican running should be asked if they support Assad.
posted by Flashman at 10:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is not the first time I have heard the put her in jail chorus. I live in Utah, that is a pre-rapture tune around here. People love saying that almost as much as Benghazi! Banzai y'all!
posted by Oyéah at 10:08 PM on October 9, 2016


@ddale8
"This was the night "lock her up" became official policy."

Yep. Every Republican running should be asked if Clinton should be jailed.

It's okay everyone he was just joking!

Daniel DaleVerified account
‏@ddale8
Both Trump surrogates on CNN say Trump was joking, using "humour," when he talked about Clinton being jailed.
posted by Jalliah at 10:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Joy Reid: Trump supporters are attacking Jill Harth online right now, who made a credible accusation against Trump, yet they stand with Juanita Broaddrick.
posted by zachlipton at 10:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]


So how is the audience being picked out? It felt to me like a large number of hardcore pro-Trump folk sneaked into the audience. The rest were either real undecideds or slightly pro-Hillary. Conversely, in the first debate it seemed more of an even split.
posted by rainy at 10:09 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Quick question from a non-American: what is actually on the ballot? Just the names of the presidential candidates or their VP running mates as well?

It depends on the state. In NC, for instance, the prez/VP is on the ballot as a shorthand for the slate of electors put forward by the party in accordance with state election law. Other states may differ.

Completely tangentially: as Chris Hayes noted, there is no good Syria policy for the US. The last bits of Sykes-Picot are unwinding after nearly 100 years, and if there's a decisive outcome for any side, it probably means genocide or ethnic cleansing for those on the other side(s). It's already horrific, which is why those with the means and capacity to GTFO -- the people with money and connections and some bravery as well -- have GTFO.
posted by holgate at 10:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


At that time he was a billionaire playboy.

He was a 59 year old man with a pregnant wife he'd recently married.

Meh. Tomato, tomentum.

(Put that in the election terminology wiki. I dare ya.)
posted by rokusan at 10:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Both Trump surrogates on CNN say Trump was joking, using "humour," when he talked about Clinton being jailed.

Yeah, an angry "Because you'd be in jail" interruption is real jokey.
posted by chris24 at 10:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Soooo so much wrong with what came out of HO's orifice tonight. To linger on just one.... How would any Christian--an Evangelical no less--be swayed in any way by a statement of what is definitively in another's heart? This was not even thin discernment, this was bold judgement and fact, arrogance and pride. The opposite of Love, the very opposite of being a Christ-ian.
posted by riverlife at 10:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also how weird is it to hear "Mister" when addressing a candidate rather than the "governor", "senator", etc?

Yeah, I remember that for "Mr Perot" in the debates, and thinking it was sort of refreshing. At the time. I'm old.
posted by rokusan at 10:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Re fast zoom: The one I saw was a zoom to check focus...
posted by meech at 10:13 PM on October 9, 2016


rokusan: "I never thought I'd say this but Trump's answer to that last question was much better than Clinton's, which came off a little passive aggressive."

It was a weird one and appeared to me anyways not something Clinton had prepared for. Trump had a couple more minutes to think about it.

sio42: "hasn't he said before she doesn't have the stamina to be president? but she's a fighter?"

Maybe he's thinking fighter like the black knight.

dhens: "The problem with Giuliani being the VP pick is that, in the admittedly small likelihood that Trump wins and wins New York, the New York electors could not vote for both Trump and Giuliani on the ticket."

Specifically: The Twelfth Amendment stipulates that each elector must cast distinct votes for President and Vice President, instead of two votes for President. Additionally, electors may not vote for presidential and vice-presidential candidates who both reside in the elector's state—at least one of them must be an inhabitant of another state. So in the unlikely event that happened they could still pick Trump for president, they'd just have to go with someone else for vice.
posted by Mitheral at 10:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Fark is bitterly declaring it for The Donald, as he didn't actually puke on anything. A wash, in short. Which, despite the most double of standards, means the needle won't move, which means Clinton wins.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


To non-Americans: there is no "American presidential election" thanks to the delegation in the late 1700s of electoral powers to the several states. So yeah, you have 50+DC election laws implemented in somewhat different ways in approximately 3000 counties or county-equivalent semi-autonomous electoral units.
posted by holgate at 10:14 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't know how to say whether Trump won or lost the debate, because his attacks like "she is a liar" or "you would be in jail" either mean automatic win if you are pro-Trump or automatic loss if you are not. Other than that I thought he has given a performance that was remarkably close to the first debate: some strong moments, a lot of really bad ones. Hillary did better in her strong moments vs. first debate and was more informal and forceful.
posted by rainy at 10:15 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


GOP Strategist Rick Wilson:

@TheRickWilson
1/ Tonight, Trump's fauxpology for the "locker room talk" was a moment where he put his neck in the noose.

2/ It's not a secret that there are more stories coming on Trump's sexual behavior.
posted by chris24 at 10:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


"He was just joking" is not a get out of jail free card.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


Those of you saying Trump did well, what the heck? He speaks with the authority of a junior high school bully running for office. He says nothing, he has not one fact in his head, he makes confrontational noise, and plays to people who also have few facts, so it is all emotion, and accusation. No, he does not do well in intellectual discourse, he is a paper cut out of a person, empty of all but himself.

Please do not insult the middle school kids that I coach, that I teach, that I know: my students have many facts in their heads, say lots of important things, and are capable of intellectual discourse. And they are fully human beings.

DT is not a middle-schooler. He's less than that. He's not an elementary school kid either. I've met many who are more humane, compassionate and thoughtful than he.

He's a bug. Or a slimy stain. Even bugs deserve better.
posted by blessedlyndie at 10:18 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I was only watching the split-view on CSPAN, so I didn't actually see any of this looming stuff other than the one time Clinton was over in front of Trump's stool during one of her walkabouts, and am only seeing it now all over the webwebs.

Since the stage was circular, isn't it inevitable that one candidate is at all times "behind" the other, from some camera or another? Like, at any given moment wouldn't a camera on the other side show Clinton behind Trump?

I mean, he's a big ol' creepy-looking creeperish guy, to be sure, but isn't geometry and selective camera angle a big factor, here?
posted by rokusan at 10:19 PM on October 9, 2016


Only 10 days until the next presidential debate. Start stocking up on booze and possibly huffing glue now.
posted by Justinian at 10:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Since the stage was circular, isn't it inevitable that one candidate is at all times "behind" the other, from some camera or another?

yeahbut other town hall debates are available for comparison here.
posted by holgate at 10:20 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


@gbrockell
"Here's an undecided female voter when Trump called Clinton "the devil," which is everything you need to know about 2016. #debate"

The best part of the town hall format is the reactions of the voters on stage.
posted by chris24 at 10:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Since the stage was circular, isn't it inevitable that one candidate is at all times "behind" the other, from some camera or another? Like, at any given moment wouldn't a camera on the other side show Clinton behind Trump?

a) He stood uncomfortably close behind her;
b) He kept walking into view of whatever camera was on so we could see him menacing over her.
posted by argybarg at 10:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


junior high school bully That is different than saying a junior high school student. Totally different thing.
posted by Oyéah at 10:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


"He was just joking" is not a get out of jail free card.

Looks like that's how they're going to try to spin it. They know it's really bad.

"Well dayum. Our guy gone and dun fucked up again. Okay spin strategy # 2.3"

"It was a joke! Har har"
posted by Jalliah at 10:22 PM on October 9, 2016


2/ It's not a secret that there are more stories coming on Trump's sexual behavior.

Yeah, I think one thing Anderson Cooper did very effectively and pointedly was get Trump on the record saying outright in a soundbite of unambiguous words that he had never done the acts he talked about in the TicTac tape.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [70 favorites]


Watching this week as GOP establishment waffles over whether this bizarre, creepy, and rambling debate performance is enough to break completely free of him or whether they have to link arms and march grimly to their collective electoral doom will be delicious.

Yeah, it's an odd one.

Leaving the world of facts and logic and truth aside for a moment*, and only looking at who appeared to win based on confidence, sound bites, crowd reactions, and landed blows, I think this one was about 60-40 in Clinton's favor, whereas the first debate was more like 80-20, or even 90-10, also for Clinton. He was awful, sure, but he was much better, I think, at faking his way through it.

So it wasn't really a bad enough performance to put him away, as many hoped, but it also certainly wasn't good enough to bring him back up to any kind of threat level, either.

I expect the "conventional wisdom" on what just happened won't really settle for several days, or maybe even a full polling cycle.

* yes, obviously this sort of framing makes the scoreboard friendlier to Trump, but I think it's how debates (and maybe all politics) actually work these days, anyway. Ever since the rise of 'have a beer with them' politics, facts really don't matter anymore.
posted by rokusan at 10:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


If it's just "locker room" talk, why is his business partner NBC at-the-very-least suspending Billy Bush?

If it's just "locker room" talk why is it a felony?

If it's just "locker room" talk why is your party running away from you?
posted by riverlife at 10:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


Imaginary Canadians are stealing our healthcare and nerdy high school boys
posted by ckape at 10:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think one thing Anderson Cooper did very effectively and pointedly was get Trump on the record saying outright in a soundbite of unambiguous words that he had never done the acts he talked about in the TicTac tape.

Yes, I noticed how pointed that was, too. If he's coordinated at all with the Clinton camp, another shoe will be dropping shortly. I actually expected it during the debate.
posted by rokusan at 10:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


This election is teaching us that authors and our guts lie when we want evil to be sophisticated and clever. Hannibal Lector and Milton’s Satan are fictions. Reality gives us Donald Trump.

I've been saying for like six months now that any author who ever hears someone say their fiction is too far-fetched can shove 2016 in their critic's face and laugh forever.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was only watching the split-view on CSPAN, so I didn't actually see any of this looming stuff other than the one time Clinton was over in front of Trump's stool during one of her walkabouts, and am only seeing it now all over the webwebs.

Since the stage was circular, isn't it inevitable that one candidate is at all times "behind" the other, from some camera or another? Like, at any given moment wouldn't a camera on the other side show Clinton behind Trump?

I mean, he's a big ol' creepy-looking creeperish guy, to be sure, but isn't geometry and selective camera angle a big factor, here?

Yes. This is why good practice is you go back and sit in your chair when it's not your turn. Hillary is practiced at these things, Donald is not.

So even if he didn't intend to, because of his size and general scowly demeanor it comes off lurky, creepy and distracted.
posted by Jalliah at 10:27 PM on October 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


You know who doesn't think the "She would be in jail" comments were a joke?

Trump.
posted by chris24 at 10:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


Hard to play the "he was just joking" defense when he puts it front and center on his facebook page
posted by strange chain at 10:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Here's a highlight clip of the looming.
posted by clorox at 10:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


That's what's going to come back to bite him on the ass, and I think Anderson Cooper was deliberately angling for it. I have a hunch that Cooper's sure Trump has in fact assaulted a woman, because he was far more dogged in pinning Trump to that answer than I thought he'd be otherwise, especially so early on in the debate. This is a sword that is going to drop on Trump's neck this coming week, I'm almost certain of it.
posted by yasaman at 10:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [43 favorites]


Yes, I noticed how pointed that was, too. If he's coordinated at all with the Clinton camp, another shoe will be dropping shortly.

If... Anderson Cooper, the moderator, has coordinated with the Clinton camp? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?
posted by Justinian at 10:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's not a secret that there are more stories coming on Trump's sexual behavior.

We know, from Trump's own mouth and his disposal of wives, that he likes his women young. We know that he acquired a lot of pageants and a modelling agency. We know that he liked creeping around pageant dressing rooms. We know what he said about Paris Hilton, we know what else he said about fucking teenagers to Howard Stern. We know that he was buddies with John Casablancas and Jeffrey Epstein. ¯\_O_/¯
posted by holgate at 10:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yeah, wow, he really did wander around a lot. Clinton did, too, more than I realized from watching the split that just stayed on her, but of course it's not quite as creepy or imposing when she's in "his" space.
posted by rokusan at 10:30 PM on October 9, 2016


The other question that's making a splash on Twitter is the response to the black man who asked how the candidates will "be a devoted president to all the people in the United States." The question was literally about "all the people," but Trump couldn't see past the questioner's skin and his warped view that all black people live in some kind of a hellscape, talking about inner cities and what do you have to lose. When he does talk about other people, it's "the Latino Americans," with the definite article. And his weird tic of calling people both "Latino Americans" and "Hispanic Americans" one after another, as if he knows he's supposed to say something but doesn't quite know what.

The transcript:
James Carter: My question is, do you believe you can be a devoted president to all the people in the United States?

Moderator: That question begins for Mr. Trump.

DT: Absolutely. I mean, she calls our people deplorable. A large group and irredeemable. I will be a president for all of our people. And I'll be a president that will turn our inner cities around and will give strength to people and will give economics to people and will bring jobs back because nafta signed by her husband is perhaps the greatest disaster trade deal in the history of the world. Not in this country. It stripped us of manufacturing jobs. We lost our jobs. We lost our money. We lost our plants. It is a disaster. Now she wants to sign tpp even though now she says she's for it. She called it the gold standard. She lied. It turned out she did say the gold standard and she said she didn't say it. They actually said that she lied and she lied. But she's lied about a lot of things.

I would be a president for all of the people. African-Americans, the inner cities. Devastating what's happening to our inner cities. She's been talking about it for years. As usual, she talks about it, nothing happens. She doesn't get it done. Same with the Latino Americans. The hispanic Americans. The same exact thing. They talk, they don't get it done. You go into the inner cities and you see it's 45 percent poverty. African-Americans now 45 percent poverty in the inner cities. The education is a disaster.

Jobs are essentially nonexistent. I mean, it's — you know, and I've been saying big speeches where I have 20,000 and 30,000 people, what do you have to lose? It can't get any worse. She's been talking about the inner cities for 25 years. Nothing's going to ever happen. Let me tell you, if she's president of the United States, nothing's going to happen. It's going to be talk. All of her friends the taxes we were talking about, and I would just get it by osmosis. She's not doing me any favors. By doing all the others favors, she's doing me favors. She's all talk. It doesn't get done. Look at her senate run, take a look at upstate New York.

HC: Well, 67 percent of the people voted to re-elect me when I ran for my second term. And I was very proud and very humbled by that. Mr. Carter, I have tried my entire life to do what I can to support children and families. You know, right out of law school, I went to work for the children's defense fund. Donald talks a lot about you know, the 30 years I've been in public service. I'm proud of that.

You know, I started off as a young lawyer working against discrimination against African-American children in schools and in the criminal justice system. I worked to make sure that kids with disabilities could get a public education. Something that I care very much about. I have worked with Latinos, one of my first jobs in politics was down in south Texas registering Latino citizens to be able to vote. So I have a deep devotion to use your absolutely correct word.

To making sure that an every American feels like he or she has a place in our country. And I think when you look at the letters that I get, a lot of people are worried that maybe they wouldn't have a place in Donald Trump's America. They write me and one woman wrote me about her son Felix. She adopted him from Ethiopia. He's 10 years old now. This is the only one country he's known. He listens to Donald on TV and said to miss mother, will he send me back to Ethiopia if he gets elected. Children Liston what is being said, to go back to the very, very first question. And there's a lot of fear in fact, teachers and parents are calling it the trump effect. Bullying is up. A lot of people are feeling uneasy, a lot of kids are expressing their concerns.

So first and foremost, I will do everything I can to reach out to everybody. Democrats, Republicans, independents, people across our country. If you don't vote for me, I still want to be your president. I want to be the best president I can be for every American.
posted by zachlipton at 10:31 PM on October 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


There's a young man with a handwritten sign behind the MSNBC panel: "Gentlemen don't assault women."
posted by zachlipton at 10:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


Both Trump surrogates on CNN say Trump was joking, using "humour," when he talked about Clinton being jailed.

#%$!*^$#!  The Trump surrogates are really playing from the Douchebag Abusive Control Freak Bully Songbook too. "I was just kidding, can't you take a joke?" 

So much like that NY State Trumpkin (Carl Palladino?) saying all "normal" men talk like Trumptape '05. Again, the subtext  being, "What are ya, some kinda sissy, ya dont talk like that?"

On a completely different note, I need video of Hillary telling press on the plane they gotta get flying and have drinks.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:32 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Robert Costa at WaPo tweeted: "The night is just getting started."
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Didn't mean that to sound nefarious, Justinian. Coordinated was a bad word choice. I'm drunk.

I meant that if they're on the same page in terms of setting up and then nailing Trump, then Cooper or CNN will have a followup that shows him doing exactly what Cooper carefully got him to deny. That's what I expected later in the debate, or in the near future.
posted by rokusan at 10:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here's a highlight clip of the looming.

OMG I'm dying now.

It is hard, sometimes, to stand still.

Particularly when you just said something bad about pussies, and everyone is trying to tell you what to do, and they are wrong, and you are right, and you’d appreciate some attention, and how about some respect, and Hillary should be terrified of you, why isn’t she terrified of you, let’s stand over here right behind her so she’s more terrified of you, and by the way your tummy hurts, okay? ISIS, Benghazi, emails, yes, everyone is listening to Hillary, why, what is she talking about, who cares, prowl like a lion, like the biggest lion, make a face, they’re loving it, ISIS, Putin, law and order, Law & Order, what is that guy staring at, is it over?
posted by Jalliah at 10:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [17 favorites]


Robert Costa at WaPo tweeted: "The night is just getting started."

Fuck, I was literally going to make this my last thread refresh before going to bed. Now I might need to make coffee.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is Gloria Vanderbilt's son, and has lived most of his life in close proximity to the Manhattan fashion / socialite set. He knows all the gossip about Trump, and probably has multiple-source corroboration for a lot of shit, but talking about it would expose those sources.
posted by holgate at 10:35 PM on October 9, 2016 [60 favorites]


Costa is on MSNBC right now. Says he asked top Trump advisors before they left what they think about the conference call tomorrow with Paul Ryan and the GOP reps. "They don't care. It's us vs. them...You're either with us or you're against us. We're going to be in the White House. We're keeping track of names."
posted by zachlipton at 10:37 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Randomly listening to Antichrist Superstar after a facebook mention that it's 20 years old.
Still so relevant!
"I wasn't born with enough middle fingers; I don't need 'em to decide."
posted by kaibutsu at 10:37 PM on October 9, 2016


Fuck, I was literally going to make this my last thread refresh before going to bed. Now I might need to make coffee.

Me too. *sigh*
posted by Jalliah at 10:37 PM on October 9, 2016


About the looming. I'm currently pacing/deep breathing to calm down from the totally wild somatic panic attack from watching Donald Trump cycle through the incredibly basic incredibly textbook abuser escalation pattern of

- Phase 1 of the debate– he’s standing tall, assuming a Big Daddy persona, voice quiet and authoritative. Scary if you recognize it because you know what’s coming. This is a man who is trying to keep his reputation in public and chastise a wayward woman or child. He is performing his power over her for the people around them, and trying to draw on THEIR agreement with his role to intimidate her into standing down.

- Phase 2– this appeal to his natural authority as white man doesn’t get Hillary to back down in fear or deference, so he switches to physically threatening behavior, the looming that everyone on twitter is talking about, physically stalking her and following her around on stage just too closely to be comfortable or accidental. No real movements towards violence, just making his size and presence and anger very palpable.

- Phase 3: hysterical accusations of breaking the law and threats of police/jail. In those who don't like dealing with law enforcement, this is a"You're in big trouble now!" meltdown. This is what happens when someone who is doing this snaps because what they’ve been trying before, the silent invocation of power, didn’t work. When Hillary totally refuses to acknowledge him implicitly threatening her by violating her personal space, he moves on to legal threats. It’s only after he had exhausted the Father Knows Best pose and then the implicit threats of physical violence that the “jail her” talk started.

If you’ve ever been bullied in this way this pattern of escalating abuse is absolutely unmistakeable. It was shocking to see it acted out on national TV. At this point the next step in escalation is physical violence and I’m convinced that Trump’s goal here– because he knows he can’t win– is revenge, is to provoke one of his unstable supporters into assassinating her like Jo Cox. Hillary… Hillary is an old hand at this, an absolute professional. She has dealt with this behavior from the global best and she’s still standing. And yet I can’t even begin to describe the respect I have for her for absolutely refusing to give a single inch to that behavior, for refusing to acknowledge it, for ignoring it so completely. I keep seeing people talk about conversations they’re having with non-abusive male relatives who noticed that this behavior was “weird” or “creepy” and had to have it explained to them. I really just… damn.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:38 PM on October 9, 2016 [213 favorites]


It is hard, sometimes, to stand still... Particularly when you just said something bad about pussies.

I wish all that bad poosey stuff would stay dead and buried in Season Five where it belongs.

Okay I've reached that level of peak whisky sleepiness when my jokes are only funny to me, so all you kids try to play nice, and remember, he's just a silly idiot clown man who won't hurt you or haunt you in your dreams much longer, because he's gonna lose so, so, SO badly in just a few more weeks. Nighty-night.
posted by rokusan at 10:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ann Telnaes at the Post drew some pictures.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [38 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is Gloria Vanderbilt's son, and has lived most of his life in close proximity to the Manhattan fashion / socialite set. He knows all the gossip about Trump, and probably has multiple-source corroboration for a lot of shit, but talking about it would expose those sources.

Yeah, this is part of why I'm sure Cooper knows something. Not something he could pounce on Trump with in the limited-time format of a debate, maybe not something that's a full story yet, but he was laying a careful trap with that question, and he made 100% sure to get Trump entirely, no-take-backs in it. This honestly seems like the obvious direction of any coming oppo dump, and I'm only surprised Cooper was so damned obvious about it. That whole line of questioning screamed TRAP. If no one in the Trump campaign is worried about this right now, they're not doing their damned jobs.
posted by yasaman at 10:43 PM on October 9, 2016 [49 favorites]


Donald's youtube channel has already released a video about the moderators being unfair. Not willing to watch it but no surprise they jumped on it so fast.
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:44 PM on October 9, 2016


Ann Telnaes at the Post drew some pictures.

Oh, that's brilliant: she's got the tie down to his knees.
posted by suelac at 10:44 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is Gloria Vanderbilt's son, and has lived most of his life in close proximity to the Manhattan fashion / socialite set.

What came to my mind when Hilary answered that she liked Trump's children was that they're all - Trump's children, Jared Kushner, Chelsea Clinton, Anderson Cooper, Hillary herself - part of the same Manhattan social circle and so of course Hillary doesn't want things to be awkward the next time Ivanka is over for brunch.
posted by Flashman at 10:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Howard Fineman (HuffPo) on MSNBC says Pence isn't going anywhere (talked to one of his "top people" 10 minutes ago). Some people in his office wanted him to drop out before the debate, but he's not going to. And Pence and Trump have talked about Syria and Trump's statement during the debate "was not true."
posted by zachlipton at 10:45 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump surrogates: "They don't care. It's us vs. them...You're either with us or you're against us. We're going to be in the White House. We're keeping track of names."

What, are they planning on jailing all the Republicans who bail on them, too?

Heh. Heheh. Just joking, folks. Who, us?
posted by instamatic at 10:46 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


TNR: Donald Trump’s Meltdown Is Nearly Complete
"His debate performance was disastrous because he succeeded at the only thing he came to accomplish: to pander to his demoralized supporters."
posted by chris24 at 10:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


It was a weird one and appeared to me anyways not something Clinton had prepared for. Trump had a couple more minutes to think about it.

It's a much harder question for her to answer than for him.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:48 PM on October 9, 2016 [38 favorites]


rokusan: "CNN will have a followup that shows him doing exactly what Cooper carefully got him to deny."

Could just be playing the odds. Besides journalists in general like specific yea/no questions answered with a yes or no.

moonlight on vermont: "provoke one of his unstable supporters into assassinating her like Jo Cox"

While not impossible the lone wolf whack job getting a shot at Clinton would be a pretty significant failing on the part of the Secret Service; I just don't see it happening.
posted by Mitheral at 10:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


When you're legitimately "embarrassed" about something, you sincerely display contrition, make amends for your action/s, and let it be. You do not instead promise to investigate and imprison your opponent, tell her she should be ashamed of herself , call her the devil, and tell everyone that she has hatred in her heart.

Most kindergarteners know this.
posted by riverlife at 10:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


I think Hillary did a great job. She's going against a fascist bigot who hates women, and who wanted to use her husband's abuses to humiliate her on national stage, and she came out presidential. Before the debate started I was filled with visceral disgust over what Trump was doing, and that she can go up there and be calm and rational is amazing to me.

Any pundits who spin this as a Trump win or a tie can go fuck themselves. Trump's campaign is helping normalize fascism in this country, and by not calling it out the media pundits have gone along with it. The witch-hunt calling for Hillary to go to jail is not new, this Mother Jones shows its history. Any pundits or journalists who haven't been calling it out or noticing it until now have not been paying attention, have not been doing their jobs.
posted by airish at 10:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


This election is teaching us that authors and our guts lie when we want evil to be sophisticated and clever. Hannibal Lector and Milton’s Satan are fictions. Reality gives us Donald Trump.
What? You never heard of "the banality of evil"? "Realistic" fiction requires truly skillful writers to avoid being boring as all get-out.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:49 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


If this Costa scoop is about as important as all the Wikileaks scoops I'm going to be very upset.
posted by Justinian at 10:50 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Another thing that comforts me about tonight:

For many people who didn't think about him too hard, they got a kick out of Donald Trump. I mean, what the hell, right? He's entertaining, he's over the top, but he's got a wink for the audience.

That Donald Trump is fun. A little bit of transgressive Trump is fun, too: Like doing donuts in a gravel parking lot and yelling "fuck yeah!" while your stodgy neighbors look on.

If Trump knew how to stay lighthearted, he'd be a terrifying menace. If he knew how to stay light on his feet, crack a joke, bullshit with us, act warmhearted, he'd be a popular hero.

But when he looks and sounds like a terrifying menace and leans on the fear and anger, as at his disastrous convention, people don't see the fun anymore.

This Donald Trump of tonight was no fun.
posted by argybarg at 10:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


Yeah, is Trump campaign delusion about winning and making all those mean Republicans pay all Costa has, or is it something else? I'm not staying up for much longer, I need to calibrate my expectations here.
posted by yasaman at 10:52 PM on October 9, 2016


Robert Costa 1 minute ago:

TUNE INTO MSNBC... will discuss story right after it posts
posted by chris24 at 10:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think calling it a night is going to be a safe bet regardless of what revelations there may or may not be. Feels like we've been through enough today as is.
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:53 PM on October 9, 2016


Jeez, or not. Staying up on my end I guess!
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2016



Holy hell.
posted by Jalliah at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Costa is on TV with a laptop working on his story, which is a bit weird. I am prepared for disappointment and a rise in the JCAnnoyanceL however.
posted by zachlipton at 10:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


The first 10-15 minutes of the debate had a real awkward feeling. Like you are in a meeting with someone who has screwed up royally in a very public way and your supervisor, his supervisor, a couple people from HR, and the shop steward are all trying to address it before the firing. For a couple seconds there I actually felt sorry for Trump until my brains caught up with my feelings to remind them what he'd done.

instamatic: "What, are they planning on jailing all the Republicans who bail on them, too?"

Are you now or have you ever been against Trump as President of the United States?
posted by Mitheral at 10:55 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Costa's story: Intense drama backstage right before the debate. Trump campaign had the four women ready backstage to sit in the family box to be looming over the stage. Chairman of the CPD refused, Guiliani and Bannon were insisting it would happen. Now the Trump campaign wants the chairman gone and is furious, talking about no 3rd debate. They were going to have the women walk right up to Bill Clinton as he walked in to comfort them face-to-face on national TV.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [72 favorites]


are u kidding me costa u fucker, im busy making my genocide day tumblr queue
posted by poffin boffin at 10:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


The story is they wanted the women to get into a fight with Bill Clinton and the debate commission prevented it. They wanted the Springer show!
posted by cmfletcher at 10:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


I totally called it before they did plan a national fight with the accusers directly confronting Clinton.
Was going to have them sit in the family box and have them walk out on stage and get in her face.

Debate people said no way.

Trump campaign is furious.
posted by Jalliah at 10:56 PM on October 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


The scoop is Trump, Bannon, Giuliani wanted to put the 4 women in the Trump family seats right on stage and next to the Clintons and the Debate Commission head said no. And the Trump campaign is furious because they wanted them to confront Bill and have a fight on iive TV to start the debate.
posted by chris24 at 10:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow. So it's not a story about a scandal or anything but it really is an interesting scoop.

For those not awake or watching, Costa has it on the record straight from Giuliani that the Trump camp had their four women props ready to march out and confront Bill Clinton face to face live on national television and to be seated in the Trump Family seats right over the stage. The head of the Commission for Presidential Debates nixed it and would not let that proceed and the Trump camp is absolutely furious.
posted by Justinian at 10:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


or what others said.
posted by Justinian at 10:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Robert Costa is not Wikileaks. Costa is tapped in to the GOP, and was recruited by the WaPo from the National Review. Remember that it was Costa's interview of Trump that got held back and dropped just before the birther event in DC, which showed Trump in full-on untouchable crazy. Costa's sources have been legit through the campaign, and he's been able to get Trump to talk to him when no other mainstream reporter has managed it.
posted by holgate at 10:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [20 favorites]


As if the night weren't grotesque enough. OK then, that's my cue to get some sleep and hopefully wake up in an alternate timeline where Donald Trump is shining some mid-level salesman's shoes in a 3 star hotel.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is like a really really boring game of "Telephone."
posted by zachlipton at 10:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oop not her face but Bill Clinton's face. I stand corrected.


Good on the debate commission for heading that one off.
posted by Jalliah at 10:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I dunno, I find it an absolutely fascinating scoop if one about process rather than issues.
posted by Justinian at 10:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


And the Costa story is live: Trump’s debate plan to seat Bill Clinton’s accusers in family box was thwarted
Donald Trump’s campaign sought to intimidate Hillary Clinton and embarrass her husband by seating women who have accused former president Bill Clinton of sexual abuse in the Trump family’s box at the presidential debate here Sunday night, according to four people involved in the discussions.

The campaign’s plan, which was closely held and unknown to several of Trump’s top aides, was thwarted just minutes before it could be executed when officials with the Commission on Presidential Debates intervened.

The commission officials warned that, if the Trump campaign tried to seat the accusers in the elevated family box, security officers would remove the women, according to the people involved, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the discussions were confidential.
posted by zachlipton at 10:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


oh ok good i can go back to dragging columbus then
posted by poffin boffin at 10:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well, feel free to not show up to the third debate then if you want to lower the national discourse to goddamn Jerry Springer show levels, Trump campaign. That is goddamn disgusting, but good on the debate commission for shutting that down.
posted by yasaman at 10:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [26 favorites]



The scoop is Trump, Bannon, Giuliani wanted to put the 4 women in the Trump family seats right on stage and next to the Clinton's and the Debate Commission head said no. And the Trump campaign is furious because they wanted them to confront Bill and have a fight on iive TV to start the debate.
What was the thing Jerry Springer said? Sounds like Trump belongs on his show, and also, he desperately wants to be...
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 11:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


So of course this means that it doesn't count as one of the two remaining drops. This was just a freebie, handed over gratis by Giuliani. Own goal!
posted by instamatic at 11:01 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Even Jerry Springer didn't turn his campaigns into The Jerry Springer Show . Yuck.
posted by riverlife at 11:03 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think that's a legit scoop from Costa: the Clinton and Trump campaigns have not had a signed-off memorandum of understanding on the debate mechanics, as was hashed out between the Romney and Obama campaigns, but instead let the CPD set the ground rules. Clearly, Bannon in particular had a theatrical gameplan hence the bullshitty "prep" stunt, and the CPD chose not to have a Springer situation break out because what the fuck is wrong with you?
posted by holgate at 11:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [30 favorites]


This is what you get when Bannon (and Kushner, I guess, jeez) in charge of your campaign. Maximum reality-show-level fake drama that utterly cheapens the entire political process through which we elect the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I'm so depressed about the state of public discourse these days. I mean, I'm glad there are people holding down the fort--yay Debate Commission!--but I hate that these are the battles being fought.
posted by Superplin at 11:04 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Dear author Thank you for your idea about a political thriller but unfortunately we find the plot preposterous
posted by growabrain at 11:05 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


he almost seemed mellow

He was not as rattled as I expected, given his horribleness explosion at the previous debate and the recent tape. I think this time he listened to his coaches more and tried his damnedest to seem reasonable and calm. Of course, as the 90 minutes wore on, he couldn't control his outbursts. Like Palin, his ego overrides the constraints of his coaches and advisors and he just has to go rogue. His ego is a blessing in disguise.

But his pacing and hulking was pretty weird; at one point when Hillary was facing a town hall questioner and Trump stood right behind her, as if in a dominance move to make her nervous, like something a sibling or classmate would do to make you mess up at a recital. It was extremely weird. I'll bet he thought that move up all by himself.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:06 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Robert Costa is not Wikileaks.

I think the idea here is that we were hoping the Costa story wasn't a non-story like some of the Wikileaks stories, which were hyped up big and had little substance (and a bunch of malware in some cases). Because it's late, and if his story was uninteresting, we would have been sad and annoyed. He is, I agree, the real deal. And he got Giuliani to tell him this ridiculous story on the record, which goes to show that Giuliani really is becoming more and more Trump-like every day.
posted by zachlipton at 11:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


@jacobdhorowitz
A few politicians who have jailed their political opponents:
Putin
Erdogan
Chavez
Mugabe
Pinochet
Noriega
#justsayin #debate
posted by chris24 at 11:07 PM on October 9, 2016 [37 favorites]


“But we pulled it because we were going to have a big incident on national TV,” Giuliani said. “Frank Fahrenkopf stopped us and we weren’t going to have a fight on national TV with the commission to start the debate.”

The thing about this story is, who is the Frank Fahrenkopf of their prospective administration? There clearly isn't one. No one on their team sees this as the embarrassment it is. I can only imagine what sort of stuff Bannon would think is a great idea -- why not bring a bunch of Yazidi women to a meeting with ISIS and just see what happens?
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:09 PM on October 9, 2016


Wait. Did I imagine it or did Trump really call Lincoln, "the late, great Abraham Lincoln"? What is even going on any more?
posted by mhum at 11:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


or what moonlight on vermont said...oops
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:10 PM on October 9, 2016


Even Jerry Springer didn't turn his campaigns into The Jerry Springer Show.

True story: I went to a thing during my college days with Jerry Springer -- even Steve was there -- and he made clear that everybody who showed up for one of his recordings signed off on a one-page point-by-point list of what the topics might be. Nobody went on that stage blind. Yes, it was crazy, but the ground rules were laid out.
posted by holgate at 11:11 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I guess this is another "Yeah we knew what they were doing from the start but now it's on record" sort of things. Always glad to have the stupidity of their straight-from-reality-TV stunts reported on.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:12 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lest anybody think think Frank Fahrenkopf is a shill for the Democrats, he was chairman of the Republican National Committee from 1983 to 1989.
posted by zachlipton at 11:13 PM on October 9, 2016 [25 favorites]


I think the idea here is that we were hoping the Costa story wasn't a non-story like some of the Wikileaks stories, which were hyped up big and had little substance (and a bunch of malware in some cases).

I think it's just the pace of the thread. Costa's stories may not be "wow" revelations, but they're tapped into the actual dynamics of the Trump campaign in a way that the Russian hackers supplying dirty content and teenage channers running the Wikileaks account are not.
posted by holgate at 11:16 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I guess Pence knew about the Jerry Springer plan and that's why there were rumors he'd drop out.
posted by asteria at 11:19 PM on October 9, 2016


This story only even further underscores DJT's fundamental lack of respect for women. He brought them there only to serve as props in his spectacle. He only values women as far as he can physically or politically make use of them.
posted by riverlife at 11:19 PM on October 9, 2016 [52 favorites]


There's no locker room at the White House.
posted by soakimbo at 11:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


he almost seemed mellow

My thought for the first part of the debate was that someone had slipped him a downer, honestly.

And the looming just gets worse and worse the more I think about it. Like, in that kind of power posturing's more legitimate use, it's something security guards or anyone in an enforcer role is taught to use as a signal of a precursor to physical conflict. You make someone who is causing trouble very aware of your physical presence and potential consequences if they instigate any violence or keep behaving inappropriately. Its sole purpose is a show of physical force. When used for good, this is the same tactic people described in that "how to help someone who is being harassed in public" when they talked about stepping between two people involved in a conflict (or one person being attacked) and making their bodies into "a wall." One political candidate for the presidency using this kind of threat of violent force against his opponent, a woman about a foot shorter than he is? A 70 year old man doing this to a 70 year old woman in contest for the highest office in the country ? Are you fucking kidding me???
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:21 PM on October 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


God, gross. Ugh. I don't even know what I'm saying "gross" to anymore.

We went out tonight and both were refreshing liveblogs on our phones all evening, because we wanted to be watching or listening but we have little kids. Our daughter is just of the age now where she occasionally catches a bit of adult conversation and wants to know what it means and we didn't trust the presidential debate not to have content we couldn't play for her.

I was like, "I guess this is how our parents felt during the Lewinsky scandal and I admit I found out what O-R-A-L S-E-X was from that news coverage...but a debate?!" Our democracy has so few spaces left where the public gets to see leaders from both sides of the aisle get together to talk to each other seriously about issues and how to address them. And I guess maybe now there are none left.

I just feel so, so disappointed by this stupid country. Hillary Clinton deserved so much better in an opponent than what she got.
posted by the marble index at 11:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


OK, now imagine that Trump did that stupid stunt where he replaced his family with a cheap Jerry Springer stunt, and THEN Clinton gave the line about respecting his children.
posted by ckape at 11:23 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


There's no locker room at the White House.
If Trump moves in, it'll be ALL locker room.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:24 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


This story only even further underscores DJT's fundamental lack of respect for women. He brought them there only to serve as props in his spectacle. He only values women as far as he can physically or politically make use of them.

Even worse, best surrogate ever Ben Carson admitted they just used them for political purposes.

@sopandeb:
Carson on FBN: "I think it was important, you know, to bring [Clinton accusers] out here, so you that you have some leverage..." (full transcript attached as screenshot to the tweet.)
posted by chris24 at 11:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


This preposterous plan further explains Melania's kill me now face as she walked in.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:25 PM on October 9, 2016 [41 favorites]


If Trump moves in, it'll be ALL locker room.

Rose Garden replaced with Axe Body Spray pop up
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:26 PM on October 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


And Pence and Trump have talked about Syria and Trump's statement during the debate "was not true."

Aw, come on, Mike. That would have been a perfect time for "He never said that." Make 'em wonder if you're joking or crazy.
posted by ctmf at 11:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was curious where exactly the family seats that the Trump campaign wanted to fill with Bill Clinton's women of yore and was stunned that they were seated just above and to stage right of the moderators. Photos
posted by spamandkimchi at 11:30 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


This preposterous plan further explains Melania's kill me now face as she walked in.

i hope right at this very moment she is in a trenchcoat and fedora meeting a clinton campaign rep in a dark alley with a manila envelope full of trump receipts
posted by poffin boffin at 11:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [65 favorites]


This preposterous plan further explains Melania's kill me now face as she walked in.

My gf's father retired as the managing partner of a pretty big law firm. Talking to him last night, he suggested that Melania's pre-nup and NDA probably look ironclad and intimidating, along with a lot of misinformation to make her think they're insurmountable, which is why she isn't talking...but he also said it's hard to imagine any reasonable court would find that Trump hasn't already violated the marriage contract(s).

There are probably a lot of NY divorce attorneys trying to figure out a way to have a private conversation with her right now.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:33 PM on October 9, 2016 [37 favorites]


John Oliver on Paul Ryan's "Women are to be championed and revered" bit: "You do know that women are human beings and not pedigreed showdogs, right?" Then he goes after all the Republican statements that start with "I have a wife" or "I have a daughter" and the like: "As the son of a mother and the husband of a wife, what the fuck does that have to do with anything?"
posted by zachlipton at 11:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [70 favorites]


They say "I have a wife" and "I have a daughter" because the women don't mean anything without a man to own them.

Just like the bros who think it's OK to harass single women, but will apologize to the husband (owner) if caught hitting on a married woman.
posted by benzenedream at 11:36 PM on October 9, 2016 [90 favorites]


Lurky McLurkface
posted by knapah at 11:47 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait. Did I imagine it or did Trump really call Lincoln, "the late, great Abraham Lincoln"? What is even going on any more?

Well he has to be sure people know which one he's talking about
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:51 PM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


The projection!!!

"How dumb is this country?" --> "How dumb am I?"
"She has hatred in her heart" --> "I have hatred in my heart."
"You should be ashamed" --> "I should be ashamed"
HRC is "the devil" --> "I am the devil"
"Bill Clinton has abused women" --> "I have abused women"
"You'd be in jail" --> "I should be in jail"
posted by riverlife at 11:52 PM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


@EricHolder: In the USA we do not threaten to jail political opponents. @realDonaldTrump said he would. He is promising to abuse the power of the office
posted by chris24 at 11:53 PM on October 9, 2016 [66 favorites]


That's one high def projection system.
posted by mazola at 11:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Explaining some of this mess to my wife earlier, I paraphrased Ryan's and a few others' statements as "Trump has said terrible things about women. As the owner of several women I cannot stand for this."
posted by mmoncur at 11:54 PM on October 9, 2016 [53 favorites]


is there a good write-up of HRC's alleged intimidation of Bill's accusers? Is the handshake with Juanita Broaddrick the extent of it?
posted by mullacc at 11:58 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


In regards to the Costa report, what miserable pieces of shit these people are. They are actively trying to ruin the country. We must actively shun everyone associated with this ugly, stupid campaign until the ends of their long lives. They can't be allowed anywhere near power ever again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


Insightful comment from /r/politics about Trump's political prosecution threats:
He's still running off of Manafort's playbook, playing out the exact same script that Russia ran in Ukraine.

For those who don't know, Yulia Tymoshenko emerged as a central figure in the Orange Revolution in 2004, and served two terms as Prime Minister. In 2010 she ran for President, and her opposition, Viktor Yanukovych (being advised by Paul Manafort, as Putin's proxy) painted her as a criminal and a thief for her role in natural gas disputes with Russia in 2009. After "winning" the election, Yanukovych faced a great deal of criticism from Tymoshenko as to the legitimacy of his win and his Russian allegiances. So, he immediately began a witch hunt and jailed her.

I'll let Wikipedia describe it in academic terms:
The trial against Tymoshenko has been referred to as "selective justice" and "political persecution" in statements by the USA, Russia, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Spain and other European countries; in statements by the European Union, NATO, the European People's Party; and in statements by human rights organizations such as Transparency International, Freedom House, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
Eventually all the Russian tactics were discovered and put on display, their political knots were undone and their stooges were chased out of Parliament 3 years later. She was set free on the exact same day that they chased Yanukovych back to Russia. This was the climax of the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution, and the spark for the ongoing Russian Military Invasion in Eastern Ukraine.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:05 AM on October 10, 2016 [115 favorites]


@chrislhayes: It's a like a comment thread fused with a frat house running a campaign.
posted by chris24 at 12:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


ok, so you know how we all have the fanfic about the sick HRC burns and how she should totally do this or that badass thing, and then someone reminds everyone that actually that would be a terrible idea and we all go "yeah we know we're just blowing off steam"?

I feel like the trump campaign never gets past that first part. Like they literally have less campaign savvy than a community weblog.
posted by KathrynT at 12:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [78 favorites]


Trump excerpts (my bad transcription from a CNN snippet):
She just went about 25 seconds over her time... So, she's allowed to do that but I'm not allowed to respond... Why don't you interrupt her? You interrupt me all the time... I'd like to know, Anderson, why aren't you bringing up the emails? ... It's nice to have one on three.
This is Trump's shittiest and scariest tactic -- OK, maybe not the shittiest and scariest tactic, but it's up there -- the way he is always telling his supporters that everything is rigged against him (and, by extension, them).

When he loses, as he must, his supporters will not feel as if they have actually lost, better luck next time, but that they have been literally cheated out of victory by a criminal. He undermines the entire electoral system, he keeps the conspiracy theorists well stocked with evidence that the universe is run by demons only they can see, and he encourages his backers to actually cheat in response to these imagined offenses.
posted by pracowity at 12:20 AM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


The Trump cannot hear the trumpeter
posted by Going To Maine at 12:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


After the first debate, a British comedian named Angela Barnes mimicked Trump's sniffing and said he did it every time he thought he could smell his pants on fire.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


When he loses, as he must, his supporters will not feel as if they have actually lost, better luck next time, but that they have been literally cheated out of victory by a criminal.
This is all just part of the mindset of a life-long spoiled brat. It he doesn't Win, he must have been cheated. Of course, the White Male Privilege gives some of that mindset to many many White Males, where he gets his prime constituency.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


"In 2010 she ran for President, and her opposition, Viktor Yanukovych (being advised by Paul Manafort, as Putin's proxy) painted her as a criminal and a thief for her role in natural gas disputes with Russia in 2009. "

This is terrifying and I am now in full panic mode. I remember how weird it was when Tymoshenko ended up in prison kind of out of the blue. The fact that Russian corruption has such a long arm and the Trump is so weak to be seduced by them is so upsetting. I have lived in a massively corrupt country before. I would hate to go through that shit again. This is so scary.
posted by Tarumba at 12:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


Just to expand a little in my outrage fun a few comments back, the thing that gets me beyond anything else is Giuliani bragging about the plot and complaining that it was thwarted. He sounds like a petulant high school boy denied his desire to pull the big senior prank. Giuliani had so much good will after 9/11 and he's spent the last 15 years pissing it away. Chris Christie, after the hurricane, had a chance to be a unifying figure but he pissed it away. Trump has had endless opportunities to stop being a douche - something Clinton pointed out tonight - and at every bend in his path, he's pissed those chances away. My only conclusion is they love wallowing in their own piss more than anything else. Presumably to leave piss warning to the other dogs. Ugh. Fuck them all so much.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


So, chipping in with some feedback from the other side of the pond: I tuned in to watch the debate with the plan of watching the first half hour as it started at 2am here.

Almost immediately I saw a US presidential candidate threaten his opponent with jail, loom over her like an abuser and then somehow it still managed to go down hill from there.

I then watched the whole thing and watched Giuliani lose all semblance of sanity and watched Nigel fucking Farage rub his legs in glee and describe Trump as a Silverback Gorilla. Oh, and then discover that one of Trump's Children of the Quorn was narrowly foiled in an attempt to turn the whole thing into the Jerry Springer show.

I am now at work after precisely one hour's sleep. That sleep, by the way, was filled entirely by a single fucked-up dream in which a giant orange Trump head roamed manically over the land, Zardoz style, whilst Giuliani danced below shouting "SEMEN" dressed only in the Sean Connery sack-pouch.

IN SUMMARY: Clinton is a goddamned superhero of patience who desperately deserves to be drunk on a plane right now.

And fuck you USA. You chaps don't just owe me a new brain. You owe me a new soul.
posted by garius at 1:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [151 favorites]


I was going to crack a joke after the debate that I was bracing for Jerry Springer and was pleasantly surprised that it was only Maury Povich. But can't believe team Trump is mad it wasn't Springer?!?

Big props to the organizers and moderators for keeping pretty solid control throughout. Even had time for a bonus question. And that was probably Trump's best moment, so I don't know why he's complaining about not enough interruption time.
posted by p3t3 at 1:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


T.D. Strange: ""He was just joking" is not a get out of jail free card."

I see what you did there.
posted by chavenet at 1:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Tiffany Trump skillfully pulls away from her dad's kiss #debate

This is beautiful. I am thinking she truly is her mother's daughter...

This is horrible. As if she has extensive experience not only ducking away from men, but him.
posted by tilde at 1:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [92 favorites]


This was almost unbearably tense. (Didn't see it live because the world is round and timezones) The calm Trump was the most terrifying because the instinct is to listen to the carefully modulated voice - also put into play by Pence. What the 'voice' says, though, is pure crazy town.

Most striking, was Trump's insistence on trying bringing Bill Clinton's (likely)potential malfeasance into the debate. Trump is literally saying, "I said these things" (actually, he confessed to sexual assault, didn't merely 'say' things) "But there's someone else who actually did worse!" There's no connection between the two, not really. My eleven year old will sometimes plead a grievance against the older sibling (older sibling got to go with friends alone somewhere or whatever) by stating that older sibling stole a candy bar or just - anything, however tangential. And in the moment there's a brief acknowledging that something is wrong, but the connection is missing. Gently brought to the eleven-year old's attention, the conversation then goes on to how unfair life is and so on... Trump never had this conversation, I guess.

Most terrifying is I remember thinking much the same when George Bush Jr was running - a disbelief that people can't see what a thin excuse for a person this ass-hat is. So I'm definitely voting by mail. I can't imagine Trump winning but I couldn't imagine Bush winning - so I acknowledge that I have no fucking idea what the hell America thinks it is doing.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


You know, at the absolute height of my disgust with Dubya, someone insulted him by throwing shoes at him during an official event. At the time I felt incredibly angry; disagree with the man, by all means, but do not insult the office with such an indecorous display.

And that is what I feel left with right now. Trump insults everything I still care about in America--the Constitution, the law, the people, vigorous political discourse, decency, gravitas, statesmanship, respect. I am sickened by the callous use of those women to shore up Breitbart support. I am sick of his punching down. I hate that someone who actually cares about the things I care about has to swim through this swamp of dirt and despair to save me from this person. Clinton may win, but I feel bereft.
posted by xyzzy at 2:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


Xyzzy... I thought that was Sr. Bush not Jr. Bush.

nm you're right. I'd link it but the first link I found was going on about being tortured in jail.
posted by tilde at 2:10 AM on October 10, 2016


Junior dodged the shoe.
posted by pracowity at 2:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


tilde: I thought that was Sr. Bush not Jr. Bush.

search engine: george bush shoe attack
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mystery solved. Mr. Trump is a giant orange tic tac.
posted by tilde at 2:17 AM on October 10, 2016


do not insult the office with such an indecorous display

An office is only worthy of as much respect as the person holding it, and the shoe-thrower was an Iraqi who saw his country wrecked and many thousands of his fellow citizens killed in a needless war Bush instigated on false pretences; Bush deserved that shoe, as a man and as the President of the United States responsible for the Iraq War. "Don't insult the office"? Pfft.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [80 favorites]


Morning Joe is rapturous about Trump's performance
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:08 AM on October 10, 2016


What I WISH she had said: "You calling those comments 'locker room talk' is like telling all the 12-year-old boys in the country that they should talk about their friends that are girls that way. What you call 'locker room banter' is what what the rest of us call 'rape culture.'"

But that would have risked the locker room vote.

I think it's important to remember that the goal here is not to win a particular argument, teach someone a lesson or get rid of disgusting locker room talk - the goal is to win the election, and it looks like she's on the way to doing just that.
posted by sour cream at 3:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


wait, trump's for donuts?

this changes everything
posted by pyramid termite at 3:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


wait, trump's for donuts?

YEAST donuts. Inconceivable!
posted by mikelieman at 3:29 AM on October 10, 2016


Thanks Metafilter for commenting: could not bring myself to watch. Hillary Clinton is made of steel. Totally admirable.

That fellow just physically threatened a woman in front of an international audience. Unbelievable. I admire her even more now but...she should not have been put in the position of having to deal with his idiocy. Nobody should. It was disrespectful to the electoral process, to the office of President, to the idea and ideal of your democracy, and to civilised behaviour in general. It was DREADFUL. Debate guidelines need to be revised to the point where such tactics can't happen. Baboon tactics.

I've been thinking about Trumps popularity with his base. I mean normally, poor impulse control, inability to follow a logical train of thought and a compensatory bullying attitude start incurring very real negative consequences for the people who do that stuff when they are in young adulthood. Before then they can even be advantageous in a short-term kind of way. So Trump is like the role model for people who wish they could continue to behave like that. The further he goes the more vindicated they feel. I guess it sounds obvious but I think it's the combination: having a life negatively affected by acting like a prat leads to getting invested in cheering on a super prat.

She was set free on the exact same day that they chased Yanukovych back to Russia.
...This is terrifying and I am now in full panic mode.
Where's Trump going to run to?
posted by glasseyes at 3:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Here is where I make the joke
that Trump will soon finally and correctly earn a reality show title: the Bigest Loser.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Don't you mean "bigliest"?
posted by taz at 3:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh look, I found the most creepy of the creepy debate photos.

In other news I was drunk before the debate ever started and then got to experience a hangover while trying to catch up on these threads. Now the hangover is mostly gone and it's 6AM OMG.
posted by threeturtles at 3:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump has shown to an entire world what a sociopath is cable of if he puts his mind to it. Because despite his total lack of experience and knowledge, he has in just two years lied, intimidated and bullied his way to the presidential race and it has all be documented for us to study.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Am thinking Hillary-with-Lurking-Trump may be this year's big Halloween costume.
posted by Mchelly at 4:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Orange hockey mask with a comb-over glued on top?
posted by pracowity at 4:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


@howardfineman
#Trump did well enough to insure that he will sink the #GOP.
posted by chris24 at 4:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Did anyone else notice the older man vigorously shaking his head in disagreement when Hillary said she would want a Supreme Court justice who would protect Roe v. Wade? Besides jaw-drop glasses lady and gnashing teeth elderly man, I didn't see any other visible reactions. I'm wondering whether attendees are required to be non-responsive?
posted by stillmoving at 4:38 AM on October 10, 2016


I didn’t watch live because of time zones, but I’ve just caught up.

I thought it was striking how bad he was at attacking her. One side of debate prep is having facts and figures and relevant anecdotes and a firm grasp of policy, and obviously Trump hasn’t done that. But he hadn’t even honed his attack lines. He made weird rambling references to Breitbarty talking points, and any point he was trying to make was often completely opaque to anyone who isn’t already neck-deep in that shit. When you compare that to the way Clinton delivered the Alicia Machado line in the first debate… he really is just rubbish at this stuff.

Come on Donald, you’re trying to play in the big league here, this is just embarrassing.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 4:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump Goes Full Breitbart: After 48 hours of fallout, Donald Trump decided to give his base what they really wanted.

"Trump could have tried to salvage his candidacy by trying to be somewhat conciliatory, pivoting to his signature policy proposals, and avoiding getting into the mud while profusely apologizing for the content of the tape — something many Republicans have called on him to do.

He chose a different path. On Sunday night, Trump signaled that his objective now is to fight to the end as the champion of the populist nationalist movement he has spearheaded and which propelled him to the Republican nomination. Trump’s revanchist positioning is a sign he’s retreated to pleasing the hard core of his base, despite the fact that they cannot deliver him the White House; a performance like this won’t bring on board the voters Trump must persuade in order to win."
posted by chris24 at 4:50 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


So in the aftermath of all of this, I'm genuinely terrified of the number of men who continue to minimize Trump's remarks on sexual assault.

I'm terrified by the number of women. I mean, lord knows I've met the guys who do talk like that (and it squicks me right the hell out) but, yeah, they're out there and this is going to be like water off a duck's back to them. The number of women I've encountered who have been like "yes all men" and meant it defensively, though. That's opened my eyes to some things I was blissfully oblivious to.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump igniting national consensus that presidential candidates can’t be prosecuted seems like the first genuinely strategic thing he’s done.
posted by gerryblog at 4:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Ugh. How can Mika B on Morning Joe not get that Donald Trump was talking about sexual assault? She just read and enthusiastically endorsed a conclusion that Bill performed actions and Trump spoke words. If she were actually informed, she would know that Trump has already settled an assault case, one was outlined by Ivana in a sworn statement, and another one is going forward federally.

I try not to ascribe the sins of the father to the children, but her woman blaming makes me want to ask her how she felt about her father's policy of spiking the Soviets with their own Vietnam at the cost of a generation of Afghans. If we can't paint her with that brush then it seems hypocritical of her to blame Hillary for stuff her husband did.
posted by xyzzy at 4:57 AM on October 10, 2016


I'm just going to sit and watch this page for the next 28 days, 17 hours and 2 minutes. This election can't end a millisecond too soon.
posted by octothorpe at 4:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the conservative Weekly Standard:

The Debate's Biggest Loser Was the GOP: Trump does just well enough to doom Republicans on November 8.

"There is one important sense in which Donald Trump "won" the debate on Sunday night: He did not implode. He wasn't "good," or attractive, or knowledgeable. He was coarse and whiny and unpleasant. He lied constantly. And he became the first presidential candidate in the history of our Republic to promise that if elected he would attempt to have his opponent face criminal prosecution. Actually, he went a bit further than that, telling Clinton that if he is president, "You'd be in jail." Which, by the by, should terrify you and be disqualifying all on its own.

But Trump didn't have a psychotic break onstage. And clearing that bar might be enough to keep Mike Pence, Paul Ryan, and Reince Priebus from publicly disavowing his candidacy this week."
posted by chris24 at 4:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


I've been quickly checking here and there the front page of a few of the major media and the current BBC headline has me WTFing like there's no tomorrow.
"Trump launches ferocious attack on Clintons - Donald Trump launches a blistering attack on Hillary Clinton and her husband, in one of the most acrimonious US presidential debates ever seen."
Al Jazeera in contrast:
"Trump: 'We should get on to much more important things'
Hillary Clinton attacks billionaire businessman over his lewd comments about women in heated second presidential debate."
I just checked the status of my absentee ballot - it's been received. It's a tiny blue drop in a super red state, but Fuck You Trump. I already had to explain GWB for 8 years, now I have to explain this assclownery and I.can't.even.
posted by romakimmy at 4:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Good grief, the Trump website's latest ad "It's Us Against the World" is literally just a rewrite of the headline to the Economist's anti-Trump editorial "Trump Against the World" (“He would be a dangerous president”) from back in August.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I woke up this morning to find a tweet by Jill Biden apologizing on behalf of America in my twitter feed. WTF ppl?
posted by infini at 5:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I woke up this morning to find a tweet by Jill Biden apologizing on behalf of America in my twitter feed. WTF ppl? = Parody Account (one that gets a lot of people; the real Jill Biden should take notice)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


But Trump didn't have a psychotic break onstage. And clearing that bar might be enough to keep Mike Pence, Paul Ryan, and Reince Priebus from publicly disavowing his candidacy this week."

Not only that, I bet that first re-endorsements are going to trickle in soon.

Sample arguments: "Sure, he said some terrible things, but that was 11 years ago! We need to think about what's at stake now. What the alternatives are. And the alternative is another Clinton presidency! Also, we knew that he was a candidate with a past, so who was really surprised by this? And isn't forgiving the Christian thing to do? Isn't that what sets us apart from the Democrats?"

So who's going to re-endorse first? Kelly Ayotte? McCain?
posted by sour cream at 5:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


When Cooper pushed Trump to clarify whether his sexual assault comments were about something he really did or just talk, he put Trump in the position of having to admit that he was lying. I think that's what made it so hard for Trump to answer, because it required him to admit that he was Johnson in the Breakfast Club talking about the imaginary Canadian he met at Niagara Falls. To Trump this might be more embarrassing than acknowledging that he did assault women.
posted by snofoam at 5:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh god. So in the state GOP social media, this seems to be enough that it has stemmed the tide of fleeing. Their response to PGate now is "He could have just been talking big and not actually done it." I just can't understand how this is much better.
posted by corb at 5:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


snofoam, nice theory, but Trump doesn't have the same concept of truth as normal people (i.e. non-psychopaths). In his world, there is no objective truth. And words shape reality not the other way around.
posted by sour cream at 5:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump is dangerous, but he's also risible. He has no ground game and he does not have the support of a substantial proportion of the senior people in his party. Remember that although this is really scary brinksmanship, we don't want a competent, apologetic, presidential Trump. We want shitty, looming, no-respect-for-the-office Trump, because that scares everyone but his base.

Consider times when the left has had public sympathy and then put people off. When the left appears to threaten the rule of law, it scares a lot of people. The same is true of the right. Most people most of the time don't want bloody revolution and political trials just for the sake of it - it takes very particular personalities (or youth and naivete) to think that sounds like good times.

Trump is promising us the four horseman, basically, plus a surprise guest rider in the shape of international economic meltdown. His base isn't enough, and every time he gets scarier, more "I hate voting but I am also freaking out right now" people get ready to vote, while more "I hate voting and I am also embarrassed by this guy" people decide to stay home.
posted by Frowner at 5:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh god. So in the state GOP social media, this seems to be enough that it has stemmed the tide of fleeing. Their response to PGate now is "He could have just been talking big and not actually done it." I just can't understand how this is much better.

It's not. It's worse - for them. I think that Clinton at this point actually wants Trump to still show some vague semblance of being in the race so the GOP can keep aligning itself with him while things get steadily worse. She's saving the ability to nuke him from orbit until a week before the election.
posted by Francis at 5:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


The GOP is like the crowd in Guitar Hero, leaving or coming back depending on Trump's performance from moment to moment.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [52 favorites]


Every single Canadian I've known didn't become a US citizen, even after living here for years, solely because they didn't want to give up their Canadian health care, just in case.

Canada supports dual citizenship so if this is their reasoning then they are uninformed.

The only issue with American residency/citizenship for a Canadian who wants to eventually return is that you will need bridging insurance for something like 3 to 6 months on your return until you re-establish your provincial residency. And given that you were already likely forking out lotta-bucks for American insurance this is really a negligible concern.
posted by srboisvert at 5:20 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Finally saw the offending tape. Pretty bad, but about what one would expect (I did just find the comment about taking the woman out to shop for furniture surreal and funny). It occurs to me that if I had been given the transcript without attribution and a multiple choice questionnaire asking to attribute the thing to either Trump, Bill Clinton, LBJ or JFK, I would have been hard pressed to know for sure. How fit the latter three were for the office I leave to others to decide. My conservative friends give them less slack than my liberal friends.

What also struck me about the tape was that this macho alpha male admitted that he failed to make the deal. He could have lied. Guys like that often do, probably more often than not. That he did not I find - interesting.

Now, getting back to the issues....
posted by IndigoJones at 5:21 AM on October 10, 2016


sour cream, maybe I wasn't very clear (and half the words in my first sentence could have been in quotes). What I was trying to say is—regardless of the truth—Trump would hesitate because if he says it was just idle talk then he appears less "manly" and that would be embarrassing to him. Any normal person would immediately deny ever assaulting women.
posted by snofoam at 5:23 AM on October 10, 2016


A Donald Trump presidency is among the greatest threats facing America, and the Republican standard-bearer is the worst major-party candidate for the job in U.S. history.

By The Editors of Foreign Policy

In the nearly half century history of Foreign Policy, the editors of this publication have never endorsed a candidate for political office. We cherish and fiercely protect this publication’s independence and its reputation for objectivity, and we deeply value our relationship with all of our readers, regardless of political orientation.
posted by infini at 5:25 AM on October 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


[Clinton accuser] Kathy Shelton was paid $2,500 by a Roger-Stone-founded PAC
posted by box at 5:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Now, getting back to the issues...

Misogyny, toxic masculinity, patriarchy and sexual assault are issues. Big ones.
posted by chris24 at 5:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [45 favorites]


I just remembered Donald's weird tangent about there being Michelle Obama attack ads against Hillary Clinton and his warning her "She's not your friend." Axe says (twitter): "Just for record, there were no ads in which @MichelleObama attacked @HillaryClinton. I know. I was there."
posted by sallybrown at 5:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is very well situated to understand certain aspects of DT's mindset. Both were raised in privileged circumstances but the difference in the outcome says a lot about what money can't buy.
posted by datawrangler at 5:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


I was hoping to wake up to exciting developments (Pence quits! Trump melts down! Ryan withdraws support) but all I saw on Twitter was a bunch of nattering about Ken Bone. Everyone better be nice to him, he's precious.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


New Clinton ad using last night clips.

@HillaryClinton: If Trump stands by what he said about women as “locker room talk,” he's clearly not sorry.
posted by chris24 at 5:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


CNN's John Berman (twitter): JUST IN: A top Pence aide confirms to @tomlobianco that tweet after debate means he is staying on the ticket through the election.

Of course, Pence is a known liar, so who knows.
posted by sallybrown at 5:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's increasingly bizarre and deeply disturbing to carry on in day to work-a-day life as though everything is normal while an actual malevolent spirit, acting in plain sight, corrupts and poisons some of our core cultural institutions, by which we proclaim who we are as a people to the world and ourselves.

I feel we must openly repudiate this toxic miasma where we encounter it in our day to work-a-day lives if we wish to hold on to our goodness. Truly, we, the people, are only great to the degree that we, the individuals, are good. And failing to acknowledge and confront the presence of malevolence among us is not my idea of good.

And there's a right way, but many wrong ways, to do this. The right way is through positive, affirmative language, evoking the darkness only as contrast. I want to work together to create a world where we are all cared for and uplifted, not where we savage the weak and denigrate the fallen.

Tim Kaine, in quoting Matthew, correctly spoke to the true nature of this adversary. From the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks, indeed. And what did that mouth say last night? What did it project through its dark mirror, whilst ostensibly speaking of the enemy without?

"Before you solve it, you have to say the name."

The lie in that (because of course there must be one) is that naming it purely as a combative act would actually only empower it. So don't be tempted, and don't place yourself on equal footing. To solve the problem we must remember to be more than its equal. We must be greater by being better.

No matter the darkness we face, I hope we can all remember and choose, day to day, to work as individuals, and as one, to weave our hopeful visions of the future together, into this reality, and in do doing, bring forth a better story. Because that is how it has always happened, and that is still how it happens. The world does not progress by way of catchy, edgy memes, not by casting aspersions upon the forces that would that it, but always, and only, by doing good works.
posted by perspicio at 5:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Pence: [Fake] Sure, I'm staying on, but I won't really try, so it all works out.
posted by drezdn at 5:45 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


CNN's John Berman (twitter): JUST IN: A top Pence aide confirms to @tomlobianco that tweet after debate means he is staying on the ticket through the election.

Unlike his running mate, I don't believe Mike Pence runs his own Twitter account, so I'm not taking anything on it as proof of his personal opinion. It's just part of the "brand". I want to hear Mike Pence actually talk about this.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I am so so so tired.
posted by ocherdraco at 5:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


New Rasmussen poll:

Clinton 45%
Trump 38%

On Friday before the tape, she had a 43-42 lead.

And this is Rasmussen, with its huge R lean.
posted by chris24 at 5:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [40 favorites]


Pence is on CNN right now - he is still on the ticket. The anchor asked him point blank whether he would drop out if it turned out Trump had indeed done the things he says in the tape, and Pence skated around refusing to answer. The anchor brought up Jill Harth's allegations and Pence is currently trying to distinguish them from the tape.

What a vacuous empty suit.
posted by sallybrown at 5:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence is on CNN right now. Seems to be doubling down on his support for Trump.
posted by double bubble at 5:56 AM on October 10, 2016


44 mentions of sniffling in this thread, but what I heard with my own earballs last night was a-NOTHER defective micraphone. The part that has me all SMH though is I'm supposed to believe in EXTREME VETTING for immigrants from certain "regions" but Trump can't even normal-vet his mic.
posted by carsonb at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


A 7% Clinton lead in Rasmussen is massive which makes me think Rasmussen is trying to work the poll numbers by having lower percentages now and then inflating them later this week (to reflect some Trumpmentum).

Honestly though I would not be shocked to see some national polls with a 10 point gap this week which is almost unheard of.
posted by vuron at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh god. So in the state GOP social media, this seems to be enough that it has stemmed the tide of fleeing. Their response to PGate now is "He could have just been talking big and not actually done it." I just can't understand how this is much better.

It's not. It's worse - for them. I think that Clinton at this point actually wants Trump to still show some vague semblance of being in the race so the GOP can keep aligning itself with him while things get steadily worse. She's saving the ability to nuke him from orbit until a week before the election.

With respect, think it is neither 11 dimensional chess nor redemption that's at play here. The reality is that, by an overwhelming majority, rank and file Republicans don't care about to the PGate at all. 74% of polled Republicans wanted Trump to continue. This from a poll that was conducted before the debates and one where they showed the video to people before being asked the question.

So this isn't a poll of opinions seen through a media lens, or after a television performance; these are actual reactions from people.

The sad reality is that the GOP is the Party of Trump now. They like this shit. It's just that all those party leaders who say they were appalled by Trump's comments are realising this only now.
posted by the cydonian at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Giuliani just said that Trump has "pretty solid basis" for saying that the Central Park 5 are guilty. I can't even convey how sick that makes me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:01 AM on October 10, 2016 [61 favorites]


A perspective from Waleed Aly of The Project- talking about the bus tape, saying that Trump is not a joke, and even though the Australian media won't be a blip on the radar, he is committing to not joke about Trump, because sexual assault is not a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7BhJ3TFW_Q

another interesting thing he points out is that Trump expects the door to be opened for him!
posted by freethefeet at 6:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pretty Solid Basis = They Have Brown Skin

My only thought now regarding Guiliani is that he's willing to say whatever in order to be able to put a bully into office that will get "revenge" on US enemies.
posted by vuron at 6:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Just looking at the 538 article comparing ground games, which linked me to the Trump website (which I try not to pollute my computers with). The "Events" wiget for Pennsylvania still shows events from a week ago, nothing new. (Yo, take those down after they happen. It's confusing.)

And under the tagline "Rebuilding Pennsylvania" there is a (weirdly low-res) picture of downtown Pittsburgh. Probably the area of Pennsylvania least in need of rebuilding currently, that hasn't elected a Republican mayor since WWI and that is pretty universally acknowledged as the premier rust belt success story. I sort of feel like musicians do when he uses their songs at his rallies. We don't like you, we don't support you*, we don't need you, stop using our shit for your own ends.

*Except for the assholes down the block who chose this weekend of all weekends to put their Trump yard sign out. Way to dial it up to 11, guys. I can see that shit from my back window, it's enraging. They just moved in, so I guess thanks for letting everyone know that you're terrible?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Kathy Shelton. Poor woman. She looks very worn. She must only be in her early 50's. By using these women, and paying them, Trump's campaign has really undermined their positions, however justified they are, and even if the payments can be put down to expenses. And totally shot any chances they have of being heard in the future.

According to the article, the prosecution in Kathy Shelton's case lost key evidence. How strange then that she's fixated on the defender Hillary Clinton and not on the prosecutor. I guess their opponents were even then actively digging up dirt, manipulating the truth and stirring up the public against the Clintons.
posted by glasseyes at 6:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


So...about those immigration requirements for Crone Island...
posted by instamatic at 6:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


My only thought now regarding Giuliani is that we must not only prevent him from ever getting back into office, we must also stop him from ever re-staging Rudy Rudy Rudy, his three-hour tribute to Judy at Carnegie Hall.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


In lighter news, undecided voter Kenneth Bone has decided to open a Twitter account:

Any accounts using my picture and making references to the bone zone are not run by me.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


we must also stop him from ever re-staging Rudy Rudy Rudy, his three-hour tribute to Judy at Carnegie Hall.

In the mindblowing year of 2016, you just blew my mind.
posted by mikelieman at 6:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


In lighter news, undecided voter Kenneth Bone has decided to open a Twitter account:

In sadder news, he's still undecided. C'mon, K-Bone.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


OTOH, WTF Kenny Bone:

"Appreciated some things said by both candidates tonight. However, I am still undecided. I'm excited for the third #debate 
#KennethBone"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Alexandra Petri's recap: "Trump: Listen, like I said, words have no meaning. Bear. Potato. Eulalia."
posted by ocherdraco at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


And, did anyone notice that Trump's "compliment" to HRC was stolen from Obama's DNC speech?
posted by stillmoving at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


So if I'm reading the winds right, minus the Luntz insta-poll and the Morning Joe crew, this looks like at best a wash. And a wash 28 days out is a loss for Trump. I also get the feeling that if I was a GOP strategist who hated Trump, I'd be pissed right now. He did just well enough to stay in the race through the end, and to keep Pence on the ticket. The people who withdrew support now have to deal with a base even angrier than before, and those that didn't *cough*RubioCruzRyanMcConnell*cough get to be tainted with whatever else is coming down the pike, which at the very least includes a court case on Trump's sexual assault of a minor that starts three weeks before Election Day. Meanwhile, Clinton made a couple whiffs, but like Kaine managed to get a bunch of material for 30-second spots. All the while, she held her cool while being presented with perhaps the only thing Trump could have dinged her with.

I'm really not trying to be Pollyanna-ish here, and we'll obviously have to see how this all gets reflected in the polls, but I'm still feeling pretty good about things. Even better, a pre-tape poll had Rubio only two points up on Murray, so that's looking like a race Dems could win again. But we're also still 28 days out, so I'm not going to be taking anything for granted.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


List of the things that the Mefi 2016 election community got me to do that I would have never done on my own:
- Purchase a subscription to the Washington Post
- Watch last night's debate with my own eyes
- Watch 10 minutes of CNN (Ana Navarro is indeed amazing)
- Go to the Hillary headquarters and phone bank

I dropped by the Hillary volunteer headquarters in Pittsburgh after church yesterday and to my horror recalled that the Steelers game was on while making calls. Most people didn't pick up to my relief, but I was quick to offer to call back later for those who answered and were watching the game. I'll be heading back over after work today to make more calls, even though I'm a little terrified about talking to strangers. Pittsburgh Mefi meetup?

Also, yard signs are finally in at the Bakery Square location (after weeks of waiting). They are currently reserved for volunteers, but free and available immediately for those who don't want to wait on the website for delivery.
posted by Alison at 6:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [55 favorites]


Voilà un homme qui a érigé son ignorance crasse de tous les dossiers en preuve de sa non-appartenance aux « élites », situation qui lui conférerait une supériorité naturelle sur ses concurrents ! Voilà un homme qui ment tellement qu’il a en quelque sorte neutralisé la notion même de mensonge : dans l’univers de Donald Trump, les faits eux-mêmes sont « élitistes » et ne doivent pas venir entraver la vision du monde que veut nous imposer ce roi de la télé-réalité.

Trump a acquis une partie de sa notoriété en étant bateleur en chef à la télévision. Tel est son « apport » en politique : il a transféré dans l’arène publique le principe de la télé-réalité. Il s’agit de capter l’attention en repoussant toujours plus loin les limites de la vulgarité. Au nom du « parler vrai » et de la lutte contre le « politiquement correct », on fait reculer le seuil de l’inacceptable.

Le Monde is full of wrath this morning.
posted by winna at 6:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


This guy seems to have predicted the media narrative two weeks ago:
My prediction for the narrative, based on every election since 2000, is that Trump will be deemed to have improved substantially in the second debate, and then Clinton will be seen as pulling off a needed comeback in the third. Note that this is my prediction for the narrative. It doesn’t matter if Trump spends the second debate yelling into his cell phone about how he won’t pay construction workers, or if Clinton suffers a stroke in the third debate. In the second debate it is necessary that Trump be seen as redeemed, so if he spends the entire debate ignoring the moderator and yelling about his refusal to pay a bill he’ll be called “bold and unconventional” for doing so. In the third debate, if doesn’t matter if Clinton goes into a coma, the narrative demands a comeback, so she’ll be seen as “incredibly graceful as she soldiered on until medical personnel intervened.”

I’m not drawing an equivalence between the candidates, or arguing that one sort of problem is no worse than another. Rather, I’m saying that the media narrative is already decided. This is stage-managed democracy.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [84 favorites]


Do local Hillary campaign offices have stickers or car magnets for sale? I was going to get one online, but i read the stories of people waiting a month for them to arrive.

My local office is about an hour away from me, is it worth the trip?
posted by 81818181818181818181 at 6:23 AM on October 10, 2016


Trump acquired part of his notoriety by being chief juggler on television.

That's how you kill a bunch of clowns: you go for the juggler.
posted by Etrigan at 6:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [96 favorites]


yard signs are finally in at the Bakery Square location

Noted! I already have a sign but I'd be happy to pick one up for someone who isn't able to volunteer the next time I go in (this weekend, if I can swing it).
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:24 AM on October 10, 2016


I'm sure it's no surprise here, but Buzzfeed, HuffPo, and Vox all have posts up today about Trump's disgusting (and inaccurate, naturally) dogwhistling and caricatures of the inner cities as hellscapes for Black people...
posted by TwoStride at 6:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


List of the things that the Mefi 2016 election community got me to do that I would have never done on my own

I am going to donate to some of those "close race" things. This is not in line with my typical politics, but I really want to put this nation beyond the reach of the Trumpists.

This election has absolutely changed my political understanding. Not so much my underlying premises about what I think a good society looks like and some of the ways to get there, but definitely I've realized that we're farther from a good society than I'd believed, and the work needed to get to one is uglier and more depressing.

It's also changed my understanding of anti-Semitism. A year or two ago, I really would not have thought that there were deep wells of anti-Semitic sentiment in this country. I would have believed that of all possible religious/racial/cultural hatreds, that one was surely off the table because this country constantly points to the Holocaust as a big moral lesson. But when Trump and his ilk started bringing the anti-Semitism, people did not cry out as one, "you are a monster just like Hitler, and we know where this leads", no, they just minimized it and started teaching their kids to use anti-Semitic slurs in the schoolyard. Non-Jewish Americans love to talk about the Holocaust, but that sure doesn't mean we think it has any moral meaning for us. This hasn't made me more sympathetic with the Israeli state, but it's sure made me more sympathetic with people worried about needing a refuge of last resort.
posted by Frowner at 6:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [89 favorites]


The Trump faithful loved the debate last night, because they heard exactly what they wanted: angry authoritarian Trump declaring that Hillary is the devil and Bill is a rapist and Hillary loves rapists and Hillary deleted all the emails and he'll lock Hillary up and putting conservative white people back in charge of America and everyone else into a lower caste is all that matters.

And that's fine with Trump, because that's who he was addressing directly and he could give less than a wet shit if anyone else was offended. This is not about winning the election any more. It is about Trump wielding control over the Keyes Constant because he's calculated that he can make more money pandering to 27% of Americans who adore him than by trying to cater to the 50%+ who think he's a shitwhistle.
posted by delfin at 6:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


Non-Jewish Americans love to talk about the Holocaust, but that sure doesn't mean we think it has any moral meaning for us.

White Americans* in particular love to talk about the Holocaust because it's an obviously bad thing done to a minority community that they can plausibly act like they or their ancestors had the moral high ground on. Y'know, as opposed to, oh, much of the rest of US history (see: slavery, the treatment of indigenous peoples, the treatment of immigrants, etc).

It's all the fun of justified righteousness without the need for any inconvenient self-reflection.

* of which I am one, for reference
posted by tocts at 6:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [33 favorites]


When exactly is Trump's court case starting? Everything I can find about it says there's a hearing in December, after the election.
posted by Andrhia at 6:37 AM on October 10, 2016


"bateleur" also means "buffoon" when used in a pejorative sense.

I would translate that sentence as "Trump acquired his notoriety partly by being the buffoon-in-chief on television."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


That's how you kill a bunch of clowns: you go for the juggler.

I bypassed the flagging system and went straight to demanding the mods release the dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [86 favorites]


I would have gone for the Robotic Richard Simmons, personally.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:39 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, although I'm glad to see the fact checks are pointing out Trump's lies, sometimes their need to be balanced feels a little much. For example, from USA Today:

Trump falsely said he never tweeted “check out a sex tape” in the wee hours of the morning a few days after the first presidential debate. He did.

vs:

Clinton went too far in saying an ACA provision to allow young adults to stay on their parents plans until age 26 was “something that didn’t happen before.” At least 31 states had similar provisions before the law was enacted.

All I can think is: are they seriously acting like these are remotely similar? The first is a candidate outright lying about a thing he did in public that was witnessed by the whole world. The second is a candidate (in a reply that is limited to 2 minutes maximum) summarizing a point in a way that nobody nowhere would actually object to as somehow being untrue (having that provision nationwide is in fact something that never happened before).

Fuck the view from nowhere. When one candidate is lying repeatedly to the media's face, it'd be nice if they started at least having an opinion on the fact of the lying.
posted by tocts at 6:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [52 favorites]


If karma is such a thing, the statute of limitations hasn't run out on a prosecutable case and The Tic Tac Rapist will be brought to justice.
posted by Daddy-O at 6:44 AM on October 10, 2016


The politics of fashion strike again.

Via @JNSmall
posted by rp at 6:44 AM on October 10, 2016


Do local Hillary campaign offices have stickers or car magnets for sale? I was going to get one online, but i read the stories of people waiting a month for them to arrive.

My local office is about an hour away from me, is it worth the trip?

I didn't see any stickers other than the usual roll of 2 inch round Hillary stickers that my daughter puts on everything in my house, including herself. However, I have a few car stickers that I would be happy to mail out. Mefi mail me your address and I'll send them out.

I will say that it's nice to visit the volunteer office just because everyone is so darn upbeat and cheerful. It's great to see so many people with different backgrounds working together for the same cause. It's like a good dose of sunshine.
posted by Alison at 6:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


This election has absolutely changed my political understanding. Not so much my underlying premises about what I think a good society looks like and some of the ways to get there, but definitely I've realized that we're farther from a good society than I'd believed, and the work needed to get to one is uglier and more depressing.

Quoted for truth... A thousand times, if it wouldn't gum up the page... Donating to down-ticket races is a critical stage we are at. I have switched to following Princeton Election Consortium more than 538, and the PEC prediction is at 95% and that's all polling before the Access Hollywood tapes. As has been mentioned in this thread, that's a significant threshold. I have already donated to the Presidential race, as well as my Gubernatorial and Senatorial races here in NC, and encourage others to do so where they feel their contributions can make a difference.
posted by Slothrop at 6:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


It is about Trump wielding control over the Keyes Constant because he's calculated that he can make more money pandering to 27% of Americans who adore him than by trying to cater to the 50%+ who think he's a shitwhistle.

I wonder how Donnie's children are dealing with their fiduciary responsibilities to their company to preserve the BRAND "Trump". I wonder what parameters they might have discussed with counsel for preventing "Scorched Earth", and having to find another name to use professionally.

Because one of Donnie's creditors getting rights to the "Trump" brand. Is it possible to o/d on schadenfreude?
posted by mikelieman at 6:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton went too far in saying an ACA provision to allow young adults to stay on their parents plans until age 26 was “something that didn’t happen before.” At least 31 states had similar provisions before the law was enacted.
Is that true? I don't know if my state is one of the 19 that didn't, but that provision of the ACA completely changed my job. I used to spend a lot of time figuring out how to keep sick students technically in school, because they would lose their health insurance if they went below full-time.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:49 AM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


All I can think is: are they seriously acting like these are remotely similar?

No, they're seriously acting like each of them is incorrect. You're the one who's cherry-picking them as representative samples of the 16 total fact-checks, eight of which were against Trump, six against Clinton, and two against both.
posted by Etrigan at 6:50 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, I and the NeverTrump people are still swinging, and this debate performance won't convince Utah, which I'm now reimagining as a safe zone.
posted by corb at 6:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


No, they're seriously acting like each of them is incorrect.

No, they're seriously acting like they're both statements that need to be called out as false when one is an outright lie and the other is a completely normal summary of a more complicated topic that there isn't time to dig into in a debate with answers limited to 2 minutes.

Summarizing the fact that previously there was a patchwork of state-level laws that sometimes provided coverage and sometimes didn't and often left many students unable to get health care and now there's a single system that has created an easy-to-use method for students to retain healthcare as "something that didn’t happen before" is not "going too far", nor does it have any fucking place on a fact check sheet.
posted by tocts at 6:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump wanted to put Clinton accusers in his family box
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:59 AM on October 10, 2016


Ok, so the issue with young people actually wasn't students. Typically, before the ACA, people's policies said that their kids could stay on their plan until they were 26, as long as they were full-time students. So college students were typically covered on their parents' plans. The issue was what happened if you weren't in school. If you didn't go to college, you weren't covered. As soon as you graduated from college, you weren't covered. If you got cancer and had to drop out of school, you lost your coverage, which was obviously a total disaster. So we had kids on chemo trying desperately to stay in some kind of full-time program just so they didn't lose their insurance. It was terrible. Now, every policy has to cover adult children until they're 26, regardless of whether they're in school.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [85 favorites]


Yeah, I'd much rather go with the "buffoon" translation. I've known some very dedicated, competent, decent jugglers.
posted by seyirci at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Foreign Policy endorsed Clinton yesterday.

In the nearly half century history of Foreign Policy, the editors of this publication have never endorsed a candidate for political office. We cherish and fiercely protect this publication’s independence and its reputation for objectivity, and we deeply value our relationship with all of our readers, regardless of political orientation.

It is for all these reasons that FP’s editors are now breaking with tradition to endorse Hillary Clinton for the next president of the United States.

Our readers depend on FP for insight and analysis into issues of national security and foreign policy. We feel that our obligation to our readers thus extends now to making clear the great magnitude of the threat that a Donald Trump presidency would pose to the United States. The dangers Trump presents as president stretch beyond the United States to the international economy, to global security, to America’s allies, as well as to countless innocents everywhere who would be the victims of his inexperience, his perverse policy views, and the profound unsuitability of his temperament for the office he seeks.

The litany of reasons Trump poses such a threat is so long that it is, in fact, shocking that he is a major party’s candidate for the presidency. The recent furor over his vile behavior with women illustrates the extraordinary nature of his unsuitability, as does his repudiation by so many members of his own party — who have so many reasons to reflexively support their nominee.
posted by winna at 7:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


If Pence were smart and he's going to stay in this, he'd have some sort of "I agreed to serve as the Vice President in July and when I give my word I like that to mean something." kind of statement in the can and when pushed on "if you had to make that decision now?" just kind of wave it away as "Not the hand fate dealt me." To his base, he'd at least look vaguely principled (even if the rest of us just kind of rolled our eyes).

As it is he's going to come across as someone's lap dog.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


A 7% Clinton lead in Rasmussen is massive which makes me think Rasmussen is trying to work the poll numbers by having lower percentages now and then inflating them later this week (to reflect some Trumpmentum).

Rasmussen will be back late in the week or early next week with a Clinton +2 poll, I guarantee it.
posted by Justinian at 7:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Over on AskMe, I'm making the claim that the most impactful small donations are too local statehouse races in swing states with purple legislatures. Here is a list of races targeted by the DLCC that could use a boost. I donated to a farmer and former teacher in WI (where I used to live) who has 36 twitter followers. Feels good frog.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:08 AM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Yes, I remember the insurance situation back then. After I graduated college (at 22) I had a short grace period and then fell off my parents' insurance. When I was 24, I had a brief few months between full time jobs and was uninsured during that time (despite the fact that for some of that time I was even living with my parents) because I was not in school. So, between the ages of 18 and 22 I was on my parents' insurance, but only because I was a full time college student. As soon as that stopped being the case, I was off.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:08 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trumpmentum

I am so pleased that -mentum has been so enduring a concept.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton went too far in saying an ACA provision to allow young adults to stay on their parents plans until age 26 was “something that didn’t happen before.” At least 31 states had similar provisions before the law was enacted.

Not in Pennsylvania, that's for sure. I didn't have insurance from the age of 21 through 27 until I got married and my ex- could add me to her policy.
posted by octothorpe at 7:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Watching Ana Navarro clips on youtube is just delightful. She's like the pundit version of Luther, Obama's anger translator:

"Jeffrey, my friend. He has grown on me, like poisonous mushrooms, but he has grown on me."

"Do not tell me you have a problem with me saying pussy when your presidential candidate says pussy!"
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump: This reminds me of Lincoln
Audience: ???
Trump: The human president, not the car, not the towncar
Audience: Ohhhh

I am sad you went with "Ohhhh" and not "Alright, alright alright".
posted by srboisvert at 7:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Here is a list of races targeted by the DLCC that could use a boost.

Great list, and I'd like to highlight the Kentucky races there. You may remember the Kentucky Govenor Matt Bevin, who dismantled Kentucky's model implementation of Obamacare and just a week ago said that "blood will be shed" if Clinton is elected. Bevin/teaparty Republicans control the Kentucky Senate, and only 4 seats in the Kentucky House stand between Bevin and unified control of the state. Republicans in Kentucky have been waiting years to implement a Kansas style scorched earth agenda. If you've ever been to Kentucky, or are looking for a place to help that may make a real difference, that's probably the spot to do it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Trumpmentum" reminds me of "santorum." Ah, our sweet innocent halcyon days.
posted by xigxag at 7:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


On banter, bonding and Donald Trump
The transgressiveness of sexual banter–its tendency to report markedly offensive acts or desires in deliberately offensive (or in the media's terms, 'lewd') language, is not just accidental, a case of men allowing the mask to slip when they think they're alone. It's deliberate, and it's part of the bonding process. Like the sharing of secrets, the sharing of transgressive desires, acts and words is a token of intimacy and trust. It says, 'I am showing that I trust you by saying things, and using words, that I wouldn't want the whole world to hear'. It's also an invitation to the hearer to reciprocate by offering some kind of affiliative response, whether a token of approval like appreciative laughter, or a matching transgressive comment. ('I trust you, now show that you trust me'.)

When a private transgressive conversation becomes public, and the speaker who said something misogynist (or racist or homophobic) is publicly named and shamed, he often protests, as Trump did, that it was 'just banter', that he is not 'really' a bigot, and that his comments have been 'taken out of context'. And the rest of us marvel at the barefaced cheek of these claims. How, we wonder, can this person disavow his obvious prejudice by insisting that what he said wasn't, 'in context', what he meant?
So Trump has crossed a line? His views are as old as misogyny itself
The good guys are also out in force, telling us they don't speak about women like this and have never heard anything like it. They are forever respectful. Well respectfully, they should shut up and listen. I have heard men speak like this all my life. The idea that men are suddenly discovering misogyny because of Trump is somewhat strange. Where have they been?
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [33 favorites]


I spent the first 15 minutes asking with my boyfriend to turn it off and him telling me it was too important. It was easier to watch when they were kind of sort of talking about policy.

My main takeaway was Martha Raddatz was awesome, the end.
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


My main takeaway is the woman on stage had to be a spot-on fact machine with all the best qualities of Churchill, Gandhi and Roosevelt and none of their weaknesses in order to stand a chance against a lying, misogynist, racist pig of a man baby.

Need I say that disgusts me?
posted by Mooski at 7:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [131 favorites]


Alex Seitz-Wald @aseitzwald
Mike Pence says on MSNBC that jail threat was one of Trump's best moments in the debate.

Fuck him. He's supposed to be the adult on the ticket but, to borrow a phrase from Keith Olbermann, now we know Pence will accept the title of Reichsmarschall.
posted by Talez at 7:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [49 favorites]


I'm not caught up yet but what the fuck is #MAGA?

Men Asserting Groping is Acceptable
posted by nickmark at 7:25 AM on October 10, 2016 [78 favorites]


My main takeaway is the woman on stage had to be a spot-on fact machine with all the best qualities of Churchill, Gandhi and Roosevelt with none of their weaknesses in order to stand a chance against a lying, misogynist, racist pig of a man baby.

Yes, but that was true last debate and has been true the whole campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 7:25 AM on October 10, 2016


I just donated again to Hillary and also to Jason Kander. I really want to know how any objective pundit (not Trump surrogate - they have "jobs" to do) can say that Trump "won", when he couldn't come up with a coherent answer to one question other than Hillary never quits.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did we learn anything from last night? Probably not, and I think that explains some of the general sense of unease and disappointment that we haven't kicked off another news cycle with fresh new Donald awful. There were awful things - attempting to turn the debate into an atrocity pageant of Bill Clinton's purported sexual assaults, threatening to jail HRC for the crime of... what, exactly? Daring to oppose, I guess - and the words that came out of Trumps mouth were as grotesque a parody of presidential qualification as always. But he interrupted less, so there's that, and Hillary did what she could with what was going on. No Miss Universe moment at the end.

Good to see the moderators - and the presidential debate commission - had a zero nonsense policy they were determined to stick to, as far as possible.

My feeling at the end of the debate, which is with me still now I've discussed things with the duvet, is that this will make little difference, and that's just fine - he fixed nothing, improved nothing, achieved nothing except handing the HRC machine yet more soundbites and video clips and hardening up his base, and that still leaves the GOP swinging in the breeze.

I'm not going to get too excited about the 'two more drops'; until they happen, they don't exist. It'd be nice to see his numbers hit that 27 percent metric of quantum stupid in the bottom quartile of the bell curve; it'd be nice to see the GOP decide to take its responsibilities towards the nation seriously and wash its hands of him, but neither will probably happen. Heads down and push on.
posted by Devonian at 7:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


> "The reality is that, by an overwhelming majority, rank and file Republicans don't care about to the PGate at all. 74% of polled Republicans wanted Trump to continue."

You know, I sometimes think numbers like this aren't properly understood. I noticed it immediately after the first debate when I read an article which said, (paraphrasing), "The debate didn't really have much of an effect. A poll showed that only 9% of people changed their minds about a candidate following the debate."

9% sounds small and 74% sounds big. But about that 9% ... assuming it split along the lines of who people thought won the first debate (about 2/1 Clinton/Trump ... yeah, I know, but a third of people are apparently pretty weird), that translates to a 3% increase for Clinton. In a race which was, at the time, close but with a Clinton lead, THAT IS A LOT. The difference between a 2% lead and a 5% lead in this race is the difference between being within the margin of error and being outside of it.

Now let's look at the 74% number. Think about that. ONE IN FOUR Republicans thought their own candidate should step down a month before the election. ONE IN FOUR. REPUBLICANS. Self-identified members of that party, not independents leaning right or anything like that. Do you think a poll of Democrats would show anything remotely like that about Clinton? No, of course it wouldn't, and no one is even bothering to ask. That is a devastating number, and the Republican leadership knows it, which is why more than a few of them leapt off that ship on Saturday.

Now, will that translate to 1 in 4 republicans not voting for him at the polls? Maybe not. Maybe they'll hold their noses and vote for him anyway, or maybe he'll be able to win them back. But if HALF that number end up staying home on election day because they're thinking, "the hell with this guy", it's not hard to predict what will happen on election night.
posted by kyrademon at 7:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


I'm almost as livid at the fourth estate letting Pence lean into this. Any remarks supporting the jailing of a political opponent should be met with "with all due respect, sir but are you quite insane? Your policy on on the HIV outbreak is grounds for you to be put on trial for crimes against humanity but we don't suggest that because we don't do that to our political opponents in America".
posted by Talez at 7:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yes, but that was true last debate and has been true the whole campaign.

Perhaps; it just seems a little more overt on my twitter feed this morning. The man pissed himself in front of the world and they're for chrissakes congratulating him for not shitting himself.
posted by Mooski at 7:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think it's better for her that she looks like she "lost" or "drew" this debate in the stupid media narrative.
posted by zutalors! at 7:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Conway says on MSNBC that when Trump said that Clinton would be in jail if he were president, was just making a "quip."

Willie Geist just lets her spew this apologist bullshit. HE LEANED INTO IT. HE PUT IT ON HIS FACEBOOK.

This was not a quip you incompetent little fucking sycophant. Don't you dare let her do that you sad fucking excuse for a "journalist".
posted by Talez at 7:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


The good guys are also out in force, telling us they...have never heard anything like it.

Has anyone actually been saying this? My comment on Facebook was that this sounds like the sort of thing that the one guy down the hall during your freshman year of college says (and it squicks you out, but you just ignore it because it's all about escalation with that type) and then, you're reminded of him again in your junior year when the fraternity he pledged looses its charter, a number of its members are expelled and there are rumors of criminal charges.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Fortunately Clinton is more or less a fact-machine with the best qualities of Churchill, Gandhi and Roosevelt.

That being said the fact that Trump isn't hovering around the 27% mark that represents Republican base vote if you are actually breathing is a testament to the power of misogyny in the US.

It's also disgusting that Trump is more or less resorting to stagecraft on the level of a Jerry Springer episode.

Trying to act all big and physically intimidating
Stern daddy
Trying to shame Clinton
Trying to throw Clinton of her game with the planned accuser confrontation.

The man is trying to turn this campaign into a reality TV show and unfortunately to a certain degree it's working. WTF is wrong with us?
posted by vuron at 7:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


@costareports

Meanwhile, Trump circle gloating. Privately mocking elected Rs who are agonizing. One laughed and said, "We don't care."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


PSA: tomorrow is the deadline to register to vote in FL, OH, PA, MI, GA, TX, NM, IN, LA, TN, AR, KY, and SC. If you live in one of those states, probably a good idea to check today and make sure that your registration is up-to-date.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Because they're going to lose anyway?
posted by asteria at 7:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


vuron - TURN IT OFF. volunteer. and vote. problem solved.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 7:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've officially hit the limit on contributions to Hillary's campaign. Just called my attorney to ask how family contributions work, so I don't accidentally trigger on overage. But as of right now, I decided I needed Hillary more than I needed to replace the gazebo destroyed by the tornado.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [47 favorites]


In sadder news, he's still undecided. C'mon, K-Bone.

Back to lighter news: Debate star Kenneth Bone reveals he wore red sweater only because he split the pants of his suit
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Has anyone actually been saying this?

My twitter feed is a seething throng of dudes who are SHOCKED and have NEVER HEARD SUCH THINGS LADEEZ.

I guess it depends where you are on the webs.
posted by winna at 7:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


If there is not an ad interspersing the bus tape, the first ten minutes of last night's debate, and at least a dozen women calling him out for sexual assault and groping within the next two hours, I'm going to lose all faith in Hillary's PR team.
posted by instamatic at 7:39 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean it's bad enough I am tempted to mail some of these poor fellas sal volatile since they seem never to have heard such shocking language and I've been on the receiving end of it since I was about twelve.
posted by winna at 7:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


That being said the fact that Trump isn't hovering around the 27% mark that represents Republican base vote

This 27% number isn't based on any kind of scientific data analysis - it was a quip to describe a general phenomenon, but nowadays people act as if it's gospel truth that exactly 27% of people is the craziness floor. Not trying to call you out really, but I felt like I had to point this out.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yup:
@costareports
In calls this morning, many Rs privately want to defect from Trump. But they say the debate gave them pause since he roused their base.
posted by strange chain at 7:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've been trying to make my way down to Florida with my family this weekend and due to delays I've been exposed to more cable news in two days than I have the last five years combined. It's so stupid and awful, even worse than I expected from reading these threads. Which channels? All of them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:44 AM on October 10, 2016


Is this really a base that NEEDS rousing? Is this base really saying, "C'mon, you guys, we're just not roused."
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 7:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was flying home from LA to Philadelphia as the debate wrapped up, but I loaded and archived a copy of the comments-in-progress before I did so. It was a frustrating experience, reading the comments and knowing I couldn't join in, and that I'd be jet-lagged and exhausted by the time I touched down and had an Internet again.

It's frustrating to see so many people spout the "it doesn't matter what Trump says, it matters what he looks like when he says it!" Because, first off, Trump looked pretty horrible. Second, it does matter what Trump says, when the media narrative is "literally all the Republicans are saying fuck this guy, and also he might be less qualified than a toddler". This debate wasn't as awful for him as the first one, but that's just because this time people expected him to bomb this horribly. He "met expectations" that say the narrative is still Trump unfit to lead.

It also squicks me out, and I'm not sure if this is just me or not, when people say things like: "It's so dark that this man has been permitted to run for president. This is America's disgrace."

Excuse me, but did you fucking watch the 2004 election? Because I didn't, and had to learn about it years later, on account of being fourteen and just learning what puberty was. But Bush ran on a platform of 9/11, Swift Boats, and hating gay people, and he got elected on that basis alone. Karl Rove's name was feared and respected. People legitimately were afraid to mention being liberal. South Park made episodes about how funny environmentalism was.

Did you people really live through all that and figure you were just watching an unpleasant political disagreement? For Christ's sake. It was made transparently clear with the rise of Fox News that the issues we were facing ran deeper than abhorrent political philosophy: we were watching the real-time exploitation of a flaw in America's democratic structure. It's been twenty years since democracy worked the way it should: even Clinton #1 was a symptom of that failure. And I think you could reasonably argue that this failure extended all the way to Reagan's overwhelming victories, and probably began twenty years prior to that.

I continue to be delighted and relieved that Trump made it to the presidential nomination. Because Ted Cruz, he'd have done the same things Trump does. Only he'd have done it a little bit more quietly. Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, they'd have smiled and brought us deeper down this same path. They wouldn't put Muslims in internment camps, maybe, but they'd certainly normalize Islamophobia more, and bring us to the point where even more anti-Muslim bigotry seemed acceptable than it does now.

The Right has had a full generation, maybe two, of genuine indoctrination, aided and abetted by the mainstream media's cowardliness and inability to adapt. We rail against NPR, CNN, the New York Times, for trying to normalize Trump, but they're doing nothing new. They've been doing this since the nineties, and probably even earlier than that. America was broken.

And it still is. But now its brokenness is, perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently, starting to mend.

Trump is what America fixing itself looks like. Not Trump the man—obviously. Of course not. I mean Trump the living manifestation of the ugly entitlement of the Right. Male entitlement, of course, and also white entitlement, but class entitlement too, and the assumption that the American people are rubes meant to be fucked over for political power. Lots of noise was made about how Trump only made it in because people were tired of politicians not listening to them, but that noise is misleading. Trump's no different! He's just a fuck of a lot cruder and more obvious about it, and only tricks the genuinely ignorant. (I don't blame or despise them for their ignorance. But it takes a real lack of education on certain fronts to buy into what Trump is selling.)

This crudeness is taking sway because the other side has figured out how to overcome the Christian Coalition. It's learned how to sell progressive values as American. I think, honestly, that Kerry didn't do a half-bad job of that in 2004: in any other election cycle, any other set of circumstances, I think he'd have beaten Bush. Not by a lot, but by enough. In any case, Obama crushed McCain and Romney, and set up 8 years of Republicans making manifest their entire decades-long strategy, almost farcically so: "We're going to pursue our agenda, and you can go fuck yourselves, and we'll tell the American people that it's all your fault." A sign that America was broken? No shit. But, again, it should have been obvious long before that that we had a problem.

When you see evidence that these things are happening, it's because they're not working as invisibly as they'd like to. This shit only becomes manifest when it's not potent enough anymore to operate behind the scenes. Every terrible thing Donald Trump does, up to and including bringing out the women Bill Clinton has sexually harassed, is something Republicans have been doing since the nineties. Trump just does it blatantly and ineffectively, and as he does so, he robs it of a little bit of its power.

Farce is good. Farce trains people. Even those of us who don't follow politics closely know that, once something new looks like an old farce-y thing, we should maybe look askance of it. Trump is taking three decades of Republican playbook, and making it all look ludicrous. He's like the magician fumbling and revealing where the rabbit was hidden all along. People are going to see it now. Not all the people, but more of them, and the people that do see it will wonder what it means that it was hidden there all along.

I think we have an uphill battle in front of us, and I'm not confident that 2016-2020 will be the presidency that makes everything feel good again. But I think we're about to see a lot of progress. If the Republicans try to stall for another four years, I think they'll be humiliated in 2020 in a way that makes us forget about Donald Trump; the country's turning on them, and they're running out of options. Eventually our democracy will be revised in ways that make this an impossible recurrence.

It's astonishing how much Trump seems to be the fulcrum of what's been wrong with America all this time. I don't mean that he's a white male. I mean that he exploits media illiteracy: that he only seems like a good businessman if you think that TV shows tell you the truth. I mean that he blatantly exploits hypocritical values: that he appeals to people who've believed the performance of a value is the same thing as holding it, and who'll buy his most blatant lies about conservative ideology. And a lot of MeFites shit on the people who buy into that, as if those people are all hypocritically masking a worse set of values. I don't think they are! I just think they hold their views without thinking too much about them, and think of the surface-level stuff as representing the whole.

(Dumb analogy: it's like the way paper cuts really sting because they're so shallow. If you haven't really thought about your political ideologies much, people who deviate from what you've been told "looks" like the right thing will make you howl and yelp, and you'll be stinging too much to deal with them insisting that there's more to what you think than you've ever considered before in your life. Which allows for all sorts of problematic behavior, such as Donald Trump running as the family-values candidate. But I think the problem is weirder and more interesting than we make it out to be, and IMO casts our country in a gentler and more forgivable light. "Forgivable" in the sense that I still want to smack these fucking people, mind.)

Obviously I want a less misogynistic world, and I want this not-even-remotely hilarious last hurrah of white supremacism to be met with scorn and disgust. But I also want a world in which people understand the extent to which media forces shape their way of thinking, and don't have their best interests at heart. I want a world in which people understand how values need to run more than skin-deep. Those are the weaknesses that the Christian Coalition exploited, not misogyny and racism. The latter are what those weaknesses were exploited to achieve. But if we make progress on those fronts and not the other, people will still fall for the sorts of shit they shouldn't fall for. Brexiters will still be suckers for angry bus ads. This is an ignorance that people need to be taught to overcome—human nature, in what I still believe to be its goodness, does not extend to us being able to biologically evolve to overcome a world that can literally be constructed, in the modern era, to sculpt us into a pattern of thoughts and beliefs that feel real to us despite their spuriousness.

You don't just change the world by changing people. You change people by changing the world.

To get back to my initial discomfort, I think that this is why people being horrified about Trump unsettles me, in turn, and makes me feel uncomfortable. Trump is gross, but Trump was permitted all along. The potential for Trump has been here forever. He's not here because we allow him to be here now; he's here now because he wasn't needed twenty years ago. But they'd have taken him then if they had no other choice.

We blame the people voting for him as if they're these awful white supremacist woman-haters, but, I know some of these people. I love them. I have a grandfather who thinks black people are trying to murder him on the streets. And I think there is an important difference between saying "Wow, grandpa, you're a fucking racist", and "Wow, grandpa, you espouse a horrifying number of racist beliefs." Because the racism is awful, but what matters here more than anything is: where did it come from? How did he, an educated man who grew up in New York City, manage to let that racism in? Those beliefs must have grown upon him like a mold, over decades and decades, running unchecked, each layer permitting the next to take hold. It's not enough just to say, "Fox News did it! Bill O'Reilly did it!" How were these feelings fomented, and in what manner did they evolve to where I'm too sad to call my grandfather every week, the way I used to?

Likewise with the alt-right. I channed for a while, in my youth. I don't remember specifics, but I know I flirted with some gender essentialism and some racial/genetic nonsense. It was just in the water there. And I found skeptics and critics and gradually moved on to being horrified at the entire climate, but I know exactly where the alt-right came from. Because, for a long time, I was there. And because for a couple of years I had nothing to live for but Internet messageboards too. 4chan didn't cause the alt-right to form: in a lot of ways, the complete lack of meaningful social structure for a certain kind of youth created the void in which 4chan appeared, and that was so unregulated that anything could pass muster. And the people who needed 4chan were the people who had no other place to go.

These beliefs don't appear in a vacuum. But they're also not just magically passed down from Patriarchy Central and White Supremacy Weekly. There's a void in which they're allowed to take root and be given form, and that void is where the bad shit comes from. Fixing society entails filling in that void.

When that void faces so pressure that its beliefs pop out in the form of Donald Trump, that's a good thing. because Donald Trump may be a human pustule, and his emergence into the public sphere will rapidly normalize a bunch of awful shit, but no kid's going to accidentally find themselves revolving their life around Donald Trump the way they might find their life spiraling around 4chan or Reddit or Fox. And if Trump wasn't normalizing that shit right now, we'd be slipping deeper and deeper into the abyss, watching things grow gradually worse, until the man who ultimately emerged was actually Hitler, and not a media freakshow endorsing Hitler but also struggling with a crippling attention deficit disorder and a severe lack of relatability. If he's the catalysis of the political right, then we may have dodged a serious bullet. It's definitely feeling that way to me.
posted by rorgy at 7:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [114 favorites]


Voted by mail, y'all!
posted by phunniemee at 7:46 AM on October 10, 2016 [30 favorites]


Is this really a base that NEEDS rousing? Is this base really saying, "C'mon, you guys, we're just not roused."

The belief within the GOP since 2008 is that McCain and Romney didn't rouse the "true conservative" base (like Bush did), and that Obama only won because he roused the minority base. After Trump loses, they'll still believe that he just wasn't a true conservative.
posted by Etrigan at 7:46 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


In calls this morning, many Rs privately want to defect from Trump. But they say the debate gave them pause since he roused their base.

So brave.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


@jmartNYT: News: Clinton to poll some red states this week,test damage to Trump. May stretch map to help downballot candidates

http://nyti.ms/2dEjM54
posted by chris24 at 7:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]



Excuse me, but did you fucking watch the 2004 election? Because I didn't, and had to learn about it years later, on account of being fourteen and just learning what puberty was.

Sorry, plenty of people pay attention to politics at 14. I did. They're voting in the next presidential election for god sakes. Thanks for the lecture about how we got it all wrong though.
posted by zutalors! at 7:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [57 favorites]


In calls this morning, many Rs privately want to defect from Trump. But they say the debate gave them pause since he roused their base.

also, something something something different private and public positions?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:49 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I don't understand how anyone can remotely support the Republican Party and say they care about people. Because that's the fucking bald-faced lie. The republican platform is based on exclusionary hate. Conservatives support eliminating me. Full stop.

That's what conservatives support. Trump is their candidate because THAT IS WHO THEY ARE.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:49 AM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


If the Republican party was smart, they would dump Trump and get Ken Bone's sweater on the ballot.
posted by diogenes at 7:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


4chan didn't cause the alt-right to form: in a lot of ways, the complete lack of meaningful social structure for a certain kind of youth created the void in which 4chan appeared, and that was so unregulated that anything could pass muster. And the people who needed 4chan were the people who had no other place to go.

Oh please, don't attempt to say that there is nowhere else for poor misunderstood middle class white boys to be understood but the chans. It makes you look more myopic than usual about universalizing your experience to everyone else.
posted by winna at 7:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [74 favorites]


I've heard men say plenty of awful things about women, sure, but not the bragging about sexual assault like Trump said. That's the sort of thing I would burn down every bridge in my life over if it happened. But I recognize that's probably a result of carefully selecting the company I keep and a level of social privilege a lot of others don't have, so it's not like I doubt this happens all the time.

As a teacher, I come down like a ton of bricks on boys who harass girls or call them sluts or whatever. What depresses me about that is how shocked kids are at my reaction, 'cause it says other adults DON'T take it seriously,
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


At Second Debate, Donald Trump Was the Perfect Republican
Other than his unique fantasy that he opposed the Iraq war, Trump used the debate to vividly depict the fantasy world which most Republicans inhabit. He claimed Clinton deleted her emails illegally and promised that, if he were elected, he would use the powers of his presidency to have her jailed, despite the conclusion by a Republican FBI director that doing so would not be a proper application of the law. He repeatedly attacked the debate moderators for imagined sins, including allegedly failing to bring up the email issue, which in fact they had. He spouted the usual gibberish about Obamacare driving costs out of control — in fact, health-care inflation has fallen to historic lows — combined with promises to repeal it and replace it with the standard gibberish. [...]

In all these ways, though, Trump remained well within the bounds of modern conservatism. Trump’s central premise was that none of his sins could compare with those of Bill and Hillary Clinton, who are criminals on a historic scale. To Republicans whose beliefs have been shaped through exposure to the Drudge Report, Breitbart, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh, every word that escaped his lips was simple truth. Hillary Clinton cited the Republican officials who have called him unfit for office, trying to use the prestige of the Republican Party against him. Trump used his time to show that he is the Republican Party.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [49 favorites]


This hasn't made me more sympathetic with the Israeli state, but it's sure made me more sympathetic with people worried about needing a refuge of last resort.

Hearing this come from you, Frowner, of all people—meaning, hearing this come from a MeFite Leftist who I wholeheartedly admire and look up to, as I'm sure a whole bunch of people do—abruptly makes me see some of the accusations of anti-semitism on this web site in a new light.

I'm Jewish, though I don't talk about that much and I really don't practice the faith beyond poaching my grandmother's brisket and matzohball soup. I once accidentally was That Fucking Asshole who hijacked a conference about Israel/Palestine to talk about why my family supported Israel because I genuinely thought people didn't know why Israelis liked their country so much. (Sorry, everybody from 2008. I'm sorry.) Since then, I've become harshly critical of Israel as a state, and think their actions against Palestine are horrific and hypocritical, which is an opinion I still can't bring up around my mother or certain cousins.

But it's shocking to me that somebody as knowledgeable as you, and as fiercely political as you are, would ever have to say something like this. Call it my Jewish privilege. My growing up having, once a year, listened to Holocaust survivors speak at my synagogue. Men who'd lost their wives and daughters. Germans who'd sheltered Jewish refugees and helped them escape. Usually I think that that just resulted in a certain callous fondness for Holocaust humor on my end, but reading your excerpted comment made me realize that, no, I in fact did grow up with this definite awareness of how fucking real, and how fucking recent, the Holocaust was. And, with that, of how exactly anti-Semitism progresses through a country, because it's the same goddamn thing every goddamn time.

On MetaFilter, I tend to hold some of the claims of anti-Semitism at arm's length. I try not to have an opinion. Mostly that's because I've tended to be critical of the people claiming to see anti-Semitism, and have felt like most of their claims rang false for me. But I'm finding myself shocked that you'd feel the need to write something like you just wrote. Because I took it for granted that, duh, we all know why Israel is such a big deal to the Jewish people. And clearly any criticism of the Israeli state stems from that sympathetic awareness of why a generation of Jewish people decided that, enough was enough, there was a vital necessity to form a Jewish state and to make sure it was more than capable of defending itself and asserting its existence.

I found your statement disquieting. I don't mean this comment as a criticism: I mean, you're saying that you are seeing this for the first time. And I guess I am too. I just kind of assumed I'd be better at seeing it myself, and that I was more on the same page with my peers of non-Jewish backgrounds than perhaps I am.

Sorry. Derail. I'll go back to reading.
posted by rorgy at 7:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [44 favorites]


Clinton did fine with what she planned, which was to let Donald hang himself. And he did, to the damage of us all. The Economist today:

[I]t was a telling, lamentable milestone in America’s politics. Mr Trump had already set new lows in decency, honesty and intellectual incoherence. With his threats against Mrs Clinton he took a step down a dark road that every American should renounce.

posted by bearwife at 8:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Has anyone actually been saying this

I am seeing this, but mostly from the religious right, who I honestly believe do not talk like that. They may still do misogynistic shit, but I can't even imagine these guys bragging in that language about sexually grabbing a married woman. Granted, probably because patriarchy, but still.
posted by corb at 8:01 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Excuse me, but did you fucking watch the 2004 election? Because I didn't, and had to learn about it years later, on account of being fourteen and just learning what puberty was.
This is going to have to wait until the postmortem after we win this thing, but honestly, I'm getting a little sick of this. I did, actually, fucking watch the 2004 election. I paid a lot of attention, and I drove to the nearest swing state to knock doors in the cold in a heavily Republican neighborhood where people slowed down their cars to yell obscenities at me. I did the same thing in 2008, when they yelled racial slurs and I feared for my physical safety more than once. I am so fucking sick of getting smug lectures from people who discovered politics last week and now think it's their job to lecture me about how stupid and naive I am. It gets old.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [173 favorites]


That whole "locker room" talk thing. Being a male who played American football in my teens, I can say the talk was crude and juvenile, but never "rape-y." This sounds like one of those parties where a woman does get raped while the drunken college students are hooting. Beyond anything in my experience.
The thing about the tape that seemed creepiest to me was discussing it all as a privilege of being rich. And the other thing that sticks in my mind is how he thinks furniture-shopping is an aphrodisiac.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Did you people really live through all that and figure you were just watching an unpleasant political disagreement?

With all due respect, those of us who lived through that fully aware of what was going on will never forget it and (for most of us) were permanently changed by it. I have never felt more helpless, alone, and despondent than I did late on the night of November 2, 2004. The often-mocked intense hope of Obama supporters in 2008 was a direct result of the feeling many of us felt that night, like our last chance to save our country, and to save the lives of people our country was going to wage war on, had just been yanked out of our hands. (I still think it's a miracle Bush didn't do even more damage than he did in his second term, and that's taking into account the Great Recession.)

We don't need a talking to about it.
posted by sallybrown at 8:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [140 favorites]


Lots of women on Twitter relating how there are plenty of men happy to say this stuff to their faces, no locker rooms required.
posted by emjaybee at 8:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


There's a new tape. Surely this...
posted by drezdn at 8:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


“Everything Trump touches dies,” said Republican consultant Rick Wilson, who is advising independent candidate Evan McMullin. “This is going to last forever,” he told Phil. For years now, Democrats will be able to roll out TV ads and say, ‘When John Smith says today he’s for a brighter future, remember who he stood by: Donald Trump. He stood by Donald Trump’s misogyny, racism, sexism and stupidity.’”

“The Republican Party will look like Berlin circa 1945,” added GOP operative Steve Schmidt. “The wreckage will take a substantial amount of time to pick up. There will be a restoration, but it is going to require a monumental feat of leadership by someone who has not yet revealed themselves to the American people.”
The Daily 202: More than Trump, the Republican Party was the biggest loser in last night’s debate
posted by y2karl at 8:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


rorgy, I posted a similar comment to Frowner a while ago (something about how I'd somewhat dismissed claims of anti-Semitism before, because I believed that the world had moved past that, but that this election has shown me that it's just been driven underground and not really disappeared, which is shocking to me). As a young girl in India, I literally started crying in my history class when my history teacher started to criticize the Israeli state because I had just read Anne Frank and I couldn't bear people criticizing Jewish people after what they'd had to go through. (In my teacher's defense, she invited me for a walk afterward and we had a long talk to hash things out.) But it honestly took moving from India to the US and then this election to really viscerally understand what people mean when they talk about a place that is home, as opposed to theoretically agreeing. In India, I took the fact that I had a home completely for granted. But now, with the rise of this super right-wing rhetoric, I find myself comforted, that if all else fails, I can always go back to India. And I find myself imagining what it must have been like for the Jewish people watching Hitler's rise and being unable to fall back on that. Maybe that's what Frowner means - there's a difference between understanding something and really viscerally understanding something, and sometimes it takes a little loss of privilege to really get it.
posted by peacheater at 8:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


There's a new tape. Surely this...

Link?
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


No new tape yet that I've seen.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:14 AM on October 10, 2016


I have a new tape buts it the Jam Live in Newcastle recommended if you just want to get HYPE
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Young girl on Twitter getting interviewed by news anchor Christa Turbill about Trump surrogate being dismissive to her, survivor of assault, actually weeping.
posted by emjaybee at 8:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I hate the not-all men shit (and I promise to walk away from this after making this point), but I have *never* had anyone brag to me about sexual assaulting women. It is genuinely abnormal for men to say that to each other. I've heard some creepy shit and objectification, but I've still never had anyone brag to me about sexually assaulting women.

But that's to *me*. A man. I have no doubts whatsoever that men do this to women *all* the time. Including men I know and I would never imagine this about.

The point though is that he's trying to dress this "banter" with a veil of normalcy about the context in which this happened - and it's not all that normal. I have been in and out of locker rooms every week for about thirty years now. I still play Rugby in my mid forties.
posted by vbfg at 8:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


I have a new tape buts it the Jam Live in Newcastle yt recommended if you just want to get HYPE

Down in a Tube Station at Midnight seems like an appropriate song for this election season.
I first felt a fist, and then a kick
I could now smell their breath
They smelt of pubs and wormwood scrubs
And too many right wing meetings
posted by Existential Dread at 8:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


So, if Billy Bush is suspended from the TODAY show, and will likely lose his job, does that mean we have higher standards for TV talk show hosts than major party candidates for President?
posted by marxchivist at 8:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [174 favorites]


I found your statement disquieting.

I worry what will happen as we lose the generation who survived the Holocaust. I grew up knowing a survivor and hearing his (truly incredible) story from my parents and grandparents. I've thought so much about him this campaign season, not just because of the new white supremacist movement, but because in a way I didn't explicitly realize until I was older, he has always been my strongest example of moral courage.
posted by sallybrown at 8:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


the only thing Trump could have dinged her with.

What, do you mean the physical intimidation? Or the emotional sabotage?

I don't like being threatened and I'm five foot tall and slight. I've occasionally been called tiny but I've also been told I've got a Napoleon Complex. I've never had DV in my family life but I have been close to someone who had, and I've gone toe-to-toe with more than one raging six-footer trying to have a tantrum while I told him what I thought of him. But turn your back on such a person? That's beyond my nerve. That's real physical courage. I don't think enough has been made of this.
posted by glasseyes at 8:20 AM on October 10, 2016 [47 favorites]


Same here, glasseyes. I would kind of like her Secret Service on stage with her, to be honest.
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


threatening to jail HRC for the crime of... what, exactly?

As far as I can tell, the idea is that the separate email system constitutes "treason" because teh enemy might read our classified emails. In a world (your agonizer, Mr. cortex) where they could proceed with this, I suppose there would be some kind of other charge relating to handling classified material that they'd have to fall back on.
posted by thelonius at 8:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've been thinking a lot about how this election has changed me. I mean, in many ways my belief that people just in general suck pretty bad is unchanged. But I think my attitude towards politics has changed, significantly. And I find that I have just really lost patience for anyone, left or right, who persists in black-and-white thinking about our political institutions and processes. Life is complicated. The world is complicated. I have completely lost my respect for high horsey moral purity from the Left in the same way that I've always despised the same kind of single-issue fundie nonsense on the Right. Modernity demands that we evaluate the world around us on multiple levels, and if you can't or refuse to do that, participation in a democracy is going to be increasingly challenging for you.

I keep thinking about the conversation I had with my mom while we were on vacation this weekend. She hates both Trump and Clinton, and I decided to try to just poke a little bit at that and see if I could move the needle a little for her. My mom is really sharp, but her standards for everyone--herself, other people, institutions, are just unrealistically high. She will never be happy with the government because it and the people who comprise it will never be 100% comprised of only pure, good, selfless, utterly honest, utterly unassailable personalities. So she will forever be trying to find the "change" candidate, and she will forever be disappointed when that person doesn't instantly change every single thing about our very messy, very complicated governmental institutions. And I just find that to be so frustrating to deal with. Humans just do not operate this way. She dinged Hillary for "saying what people want to hear depending on who her audience is" at her rallies, and I was like, "Go to her website, her policies are all there, she hasn't changed them, but of course she highlights the bits that the people who she's talking to are most interested in. That's what stumping is all about." Mom refuses to be okay with this reality because it seems dishonest that someone would give different versions of the same speech depending on who they are talking to, even if all those versions are consistent with one another. How do you live in the world thinking that even that totally normal, not fundamentally dishonest, completely accepted form of political speech is "dishonest"?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [71 favorites]


showbiz_liz, I do know that, honest! If you look at PoC support for Trump, for example, it's down in the vacuum fluctuation zone, Skin colour is no correlate of mental acuity, despite the current prominence of the stupid white male contingent, so one must conclude that there's no statistical basis for the 27 percent, it's not born out in practice and at best it's an arbitrary marker that's fun to play around with.
posted by Devonian at 8:24 AM on October 10, 2016


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races. (Via @scottwongdc)
posted by melissasaurus at 8:25 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


A year or two ago, I really would not have thought that there were deep wells of anti-Semitic sentiment in this country.

I can't say I blame you for this. I sort of felt the same way, and I am Jewish. Never mind that I have personally experienced some antisemitism, having grown up in the Minneapolis suburb of St. Louis Park, which, due to its visible Jewish population, is frequently a target for antisemtic comments and graffiti. Never mind that I had a neighbor when I was in high school who used to call the house and go off on antisemitic tirades; my parents told me she was mentally ill and couldn't help herself. And never mind that one of the women in my neighborhood, one of my mother's friends, was gunned down in an antisemetic mass shooting at the Seattle Jewish Federation shooting in 2006.

These all seemed sort of isolated, like, well, once in a blue moon Jews are targeted by crazy people. It didn't seem reflective of a larger worldview, or part of a movement.

And never mind the microagressions. Never mind the people who feel the need to say "rich Jew," which I have heard my whole life. Never mind the people in the left who, the moment they find out I am Jewish, insist on endlessly discussing Israel, as though any Jew deserves to be buttonholed and held accountable for a foreign country. Never mind non-Jews saying I don't look Jewish, because I was adopted and they are unfamiliar with any Jews who don't look like, I don't know, John Turtutto in Coen Brothers films. Never mind the ones recently who declared the Holocaust to be "white on white crime," as though American ideas of race scan to Europe, as though the Holocaust should be minimized or made comical, and never mind the fact that a significant percentage of Jews are not white, and are erased by this comment.

But these were microagressiions. The microagreesors weren't the gleeful antisemitism of the alt-right, who seem to take pleasure in finding anything hideous and destructive, and try to turn it into a meme, and then weaponize it. They weren't the ones who put ((around names)), both to try and demonstrate that antisemitic slander that Jews control the media and to put Jewish names in a literal bullseye. They weren't ones who have started to use the word "kayak" in their Twitter profiles because they were banned for saying "kike" too often.

I didn't know they were there. They were. There was always the possibility of that sort of hate out there, writhing under the surface. I was always told that when the masses start targeting anyone, they group the Jews in with their targets, and history bore that out (the Crusades massacred Jews, the Cossacks massacred Jews, in the war between Poland and Russian both sides hanged Jews). And so when GamerGate targeted women, and when Trump targeted Muslims and immigrants, I should have known, but I didn't expect it.

Let's try to remember this next time. When we discuss antisemitism, let's try to remember that privilege, for Jews, is always provisional, because there is a hateful body out there who think it is stolen. Who think that whatever Jews have they have manipulated their way into having, and who think that whatever ill is out there, if you dig deep enough, you'll find a Jew behind it. Let's remember that when Trump says a Jewish name repeatedly in a debate in an attempt to discredit Clinton, it isn't just a Jewish name, but comes with the weight of history, and speaks to those who want to repeat what was, for Jews, the worst of history.

I need to remember it, because I could be its victim. But I need others to remember it as well, because Jews don't merely need to be allies in this world, where so many people need support, but Jews also need allies. We need people to know that antisemisim is real, it can reemerge after being dormant for a while, and it's lethal.
posted by maxsparber at 8:25 AM on October 10, 2016 [114 favorites]


I'm not sure if this is just a part of the whole thing, or the whole thing... If it's the whole thing, eh. He comes out against feminism.
posted by drezdn at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]



Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races. (Via @scottwongdc)

Which is actually pretty similar to what Hitler says at the end of the famous Downfall clip.
posted by drezdn at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Melania Trump’s Pussy Bow Blouse: Intentional Or Inadvertent?

Aaaaaah holy crap this never even crossed my mind. I'd bet it was accidental, but still, WOW.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races.

Now, that's real political courage.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


it's just a jump to the left
and then a step to the right
now with your hands on your hips
you bring your knees in tight
posted by cmfletcher at 8:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Now, that's real political courage.

A smash of glass and the rumble of boots -
An electric train and a ripped up 'phone booth -
Paint splattered walls and the cry of a tomcat -
Lights going out and a kick in the balls -
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing

I truly wonder what forces are being brought to bear on the Speaker of the frigging House of Representatives that he cannot bring himself to pull his endorsement from what amounts to a human negative integer.
posted by Mooski at 8:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not sure if this is just a part of the whole thing, or the whole thing...

That's not going to get covered, or probably even mentioned.
posted by cashman at 8:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races.

Paul Ryan's going to need a proctologist to dislodge the fence post from his ass.
posted by Talez at 8:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races.

Now, that's real political courage.

He's destroyed the presidential ambitions of everyone he's been endorsed by, I think. They look weak by distancing themselves but failing to stand up to him. The only one to thread the needle will probably be Nikki Haley.

The future of the party are the consistent Never Trumpers with solid conservative credentials (Sasse, Flake, etc.) or the folks who don't yet hold office, and so are therefore not tarred by association.

The Maybe Trumpers? The wishy washy? They look like cowards, and that doesn't look presidential.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


The reality is that, by an overwhelming majority, rank and file Republicans don't care about to the PGate at all. 74% of polled Republicans wanted Trump to continue.
Whoa, whoa. I'm a registered Republican, and I want Trump to continue. But that's not because I'd ever vote for him, even before he confessed to sexual assault; that's because he no longer has a chance of winning and I want to see his campaign crash and burn so spectacularly that it serves as a warning to less sane Republican primary voters for generations to come. He and his base are the only ones who still think they've got a shot, and they need to have the falsity of that dramatically demonstrated by the voters.

On the other side of the Republican party there's another delusion, that if only someone can get through to Trump, a less monstrous candidate can head up the ticket at the last minute and we can get a "do-over". They also need to learn that that's not how it works.
posted by roystgnr at 8:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [33 favorites]


Ryan's leaving himself room to unendorse if and when there are more tapes, I guess.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb: I'm sure you're right. Unless things are a lot different in the more partisan side of the fundamentalist world than where I grew up in, it would be seriously unacceptable to say anything remotely like that. Married men like Trump are supposed to restrict sexual interest, much less activity, to their wives and most of them think marriage is for life. We were taught that even looking too long was a slippery slope – talking about groping is just unimaginably far out of bounds.

(And, yeah, there's a lot of ugly patriarchy underpinning that but I'll at least accord someone who condemns this some respect for practicing what they preach even if I disagree with most of their assumptions)
posted by adamsc at 8:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


All of you telling me I don't know as much about what I'm talking about here as you do are totally right. I didn't mean to offer my thoughts up as if I thought they were the definitive interpretation of what's been going on, and clearly I've got ignorances and blind spots here that devalue anything I'd have to say on this front, so I'll shut up and listen for a while. Thanks and I'm sorry.
posted by rorgy at 8:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


I read this morning, Giuliani tried to seat Bill Clinton's accusers, in the Clinton family box, but was prevented last minute by the debate organizers, who apparently leaned hard to make sure that did not happen. Giuliani stated they had planned to make a scene. They were going to march them out and sit them in with the Clinton family. This makes me see my comparisons to The Sopranos or The Departed are not far off at all.
posted by Oyéah at 8:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's sort of crazy how nervous I was for her physical safety. It defies logic - there were secret service in attendance and an international audience of millions - surely no one would attack another person under those conditions? And yet it felt like a very real possibility.

[shiver]
posted by double bubble at 8:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


This Paul Ryan thing is hilarious. It's basically - "we don't have a republican party, do as you will. We don't have a consistent message or anything holding us together, and if you need to disavow our nominee for president, do that. If you need to endorse and stand by him, do that. If you need to just sit there and not say anything do that. Do or say anything to just hold on to power, or acquire power."
posted by cashman at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [61 favorites]


I truly wonder what forces are being brought to bear on the Speaker of the frigging House of Representatives that he cannot bring himself to pull his endorsement from what amounts to a human negative integer.

The house is definitely the body where the most radical Republicans have power and Trump has the most support from elected officials. Ryan is worried about the blowback from the rank and file if he withdraws his endorsement. He's worried about his Speakership.
posted by dis_integration at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Because I took it for granted that, duh, we all know why Israel is such a big deal to the Jewish people. And clearly any criticism of the Israeli state stems from that sympathetic awareness of why a generation of Jewish people decided that, enough was enough, there was a vital necessity to form a Jewish state and to make sure it was more than capable of defending itself and asserting its existence.

In my leftist bubble, I have mostly known vocally anti-Zionist Jews - I think that's a piece of this. And until recently, I had really not encountered anything other than the kind of anti-Semitism that is "I am ignorant of Judaism and Jewish experience and so I don't get things" rather than "I am hostile to Jewish people and think they don't fit in". So the message I've gotten until recently from talking with Jewish friends is pretty consistently about Palestine and racism against Black Jewish Israelis. I assume that, in a way, it's like if you talked to me about the US, the message you'd get is mostly about how terrible and imperialist and racist the US is.

I think the assumption at the time was, among these friends, that American politics are stable enough that the anti-Zionist message becomes the one that needs to be amplified most. For me in these conversations, this was because I really, truly thought that as terrible as the US is in many ways, USians were all on the same page about the Holocaust and the terrible failure of the US to accept Jewish refugees.

And I was really wrong, and it scares the life out of me. I feel like if you can't shift people's politics by pointing to a global cataclysm that literally happened within a human lifetime, what is left?

I mean, I also think that there's all these questions of difference that get obscured. The older I get, the more I think that Eve Kosofsky Sedgewick's first axiom, "people are different from one another" is maybe the most foundational thing to know about human experience. I did not understand that I did not understand the weight of history or the weight of anti-Semitism.

I didn't understand the power of history and events, despite being concerned with right behavior about these things, and that's something I'm really taking to heart.
posted by Frowner at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


FOR FUCK'S SAKE, RYAN
posted by corb at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Ryan's rally on Saturday didn't go as planned. I'm thinking that caused him to step back from unendorsing the Dumpster.
posted by Ber at 8:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm hoping Ryan's lack of spine is killing his presidential ambitions.
posted by drezdn at 8:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


As far as I can tell, the idea is that the separate email system constitutes "treason" because teh enemy might read our classified emails. In a world (your agonizer, Mr. cortex) where they could proceed with this, I suppose there would be some kind of other charge relating to handling classified material that they'd have to fall back on.

Quick reminder for anybody who's not super aware, the Constitution specifically outlines what treason is, and specifically the only thing it can be without a Constitutional amendment:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
So unless Hillary Clinton gave the Iranian government admin credentials to her email server or something like that, there is literally no way that the email server constitutes "treason".
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [39 favorites]


Yeah, sadly, the press just locks in the bounds of acceptable behavior to around whatever has come out lately, to the point that if the next "tapes" / revelations aren't significantly worse or at least on the same scale of the Access Hollywood thing, it's barely going to get any coverage at all. This election has exposed many problems with our political process, but the one that might be the most confounding is how we deal with the critical vulnerabilities that Trump has exposed in how the media covers politics.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Melania Trump’s Pussy Bow Blouse: Intentional Or Inadvertent?

Given that style of blouse is very trendy right now, I'll believe the choice by her stylist is inadvertent; that the discussion was "this one by Gucci or that one by Chanel?" That Gucci chose to name it that goes back to the general discussion of naming things. And that consumer groups pay no attention to the names of blouses.
posted by beaning at 8:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I truly wonder what forces are being brought to bear on the Speaker of the frigging House of Representatives that he cannot bring himself to pull his endorsement from what amounts to a human negative integer.

78+% of the Republican base and the entire House Freedom caucus. Ryan is going to have to somehow forge a budget compromise in December, or at the latest early in the new Congress, between the Obama/Clinton White House, (possibly) Democratic Senate and the 100% Pro-Trump-as-God-Emperor Freedom caucus. He can't cut bait with Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Paul Ryan: I want to be a leader but I don't want to be a leader
posted by cmfletcher at 8:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hey, you gotta give Paul Ryan this much: he's an inspiration to a whole new generation of spineless organisms.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


soren_lorensen, I 100% cosign your comment. This has been the election where that has really crystallized for me too. I've begun to think that people who demand 100% purity from their leaders are 1) extremely privileged, so they can wait for the exact perfect government 2) seem to not understand how the sausage is made, and how the messy imperfect work of governance and lawmaking is done. I posted a comment a few threads ago about what a valuable perspective it gave me to grow up in a household where both my mom and dad were involved in governance and had to make these kinds of unsatisfying decisions every day.

When I talked about J K Rowling being an international hero, I was thinking not only about her comments about Trump, but also her comments regarding the situation in the UK with Corbyn and Labour. It's not a 100% parallel situation, but I can completely understand her viewpoint when people accuse her of being a sellout: she talks about how it's precisely because she cares so much about Labour and what it can do to counteract the Tories that she opposes Corbyn. She talks about how being able to benefit from welfare as a young single mom really impressed upon her the value of that social safety net, which is why she now needs to oppose those who would sacrifice the possibility of that safety net being preserved on the altar of political purity.
posted by peacheater at 8:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Kasie Hunt just retweeted that there's a big news alert out. I'm thinking this will not be something good for Trump.
posted by Ber at 8:39 AM on October 10, 2016


Kasie Hunt just retweeted that there's a big news alert out. I'm thinking this will not be something good for Trump.

It's the Paul Ryan stuff.
posted by cashman at 8:41 AM on October 10, 2016


I see it's from Steve Peoples and post-Ryan announcement but I think it's just the full story regarding it.
posted by cashman at 8:42 AM on October 10, 2016


Okay, so the Trump MicGate (is that what we're calling it?) Defense Roundup is:

- It's just locker room talk!
- Bbbut rap lyrics!
- Bbbut 50 Shades of Grey!

Gosh, and Republicans are losing every demographic except straight white dudes? You think there might be a pattern at work here?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's the Paul Ryan stuff.

No, it isn't. The AP reporter has the Paul Ryan stuff and then says there's a big news alert coming.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:43 AM on October 10, 2016


Hmm, I gotta go with purposeful regarding Melania's blouse. After the Maxine Waters DNC blouse message, I have to suspect some attention was paid and it being simply a coincidence a little too much to accept. I'm guessing Melania's got more going on than she's comfortably able to show outright due to her husband being a terror.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please don't post "Something might be happening" posts.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:46 AM on October 10, 2016 [55 favorites]


There seems to be an NBC poll coming out at noon, showing a huge shift away from Trump. My guess is that's the news. (via Chris Hayes: New NBC News/WSJ poll out at 12pmET today, launched Friday night)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:47 AM on October 10, 2016


Never mind the ones recently who declared the Holocaust to be "white on white crime," as though American ideas of race scan to Europe

While we're talking about this, what was this comment from upthread supposed to mean?

>Non-Jewish Americans love to talk about the Holocaust,
>but that sure doesn't mean we think it has any moral meaning for us.

White Americans* in particular love to talk about the Holocaust because it's an obviously bad thing done to a minority community that they can plausibly act like they or their ancestors had the moral high ground on. Y'know, as opposed to, oh, much of the rest of US history (see: slavery, the treatment of indigenous peoples, the treatment of immigrants, etc).

It's all the fun of justified righteousness without the need for any inconvenient self-reflection.

Exactly how is it that 'White Americans' can 'plausibly act' as though their ancestors had the 'moral high ground on' Jews before the Holocaust?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think the pussy bow blouse was intentional, and I bet Melania picked it out. That style is not her usual silhouette or way of dressing (she usually favors dresses, for one thing). It's unusual for someone in her position to wear something markedly different/experimental on a night when she knows just how much attention will be focused on her. But I think it was less a dig at Donald, and more a sardonic joke on Melania's part.
posted by sallybrown at 8:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm guessing Melania's got more going on than she's comfortably able to show outright due to her husband being a terror.

Could you unpack this a little? I don't think it's purposeful because I don't think anyone in that camp is that competent, but if it were purposeful I'd've assumed it was a taunt to those of us who found it a shocking comment from Trump, not a statement of solidarity?
posted by winna at 8:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


78+% of the Republican base and the entire House Freedom caucus. Ryan is going to have to somehow forge a budget compromise in December, or at the latest early in the new Congress, between the Obama/Clinton White House, (possibly) Democratic Senate and the 100% Pro-Trump-as-God-Emperor Freedom caucus. He can't cut bait with Trump.

If Ryan thinks the Freedom Caucus is going to do him any favours during the December budget talks because he hasn't withdrawn his endorsement of Trump he is utterly delusional. The Hastert Rule is dead. Now Ryan needs to decide if he's going to watch the country burn or caucus with liberals on confidence and supply.
posted by Talez at 8:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please don't post "Something might be happening" posts.

🚨🚨At least don't post it without those animated drudge-esque sirens!🚨🚨
posted by Justinian at 8:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [64 favorites]


Exactly how is it that 'White Americans' can 'plausibly act' as though their ancestors had the 'moral high ground on' Jews before the Holocaust?

For a lot of us WWII was something that involved our ancestors.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:49 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


'moral high ground on' Jews before the Holocaust?

Looks to me like that post was saying we (US Mercans) were on the right side of history vs the Nazis so we act like we have the moral high ground whereas like with ahem, Christopher Columbus or something, suddenly it's a grey area.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:50 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


had the moral high ground on refers to the "bad things" in that sentence, not the minority groups. It's just confusingly worded.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Exactly how is it that 'White Americans' can 'plausibly act' as though their ancestors had the 'moral high ground on' Jews before the Holocaust?

I believe they mean, because we were on the right side of WWII. The people who like to act smug about how America is great to Jewish people are definitely NOT counting anything before that.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Exactly how is it that 'White Americans' can 'plausibly act' as though their ancestors had the 'moral high ground on' Jews before the Holocaust?

That seems self-evident to me. Unless you are one of the very few Americans whose parents might have actively participated in the Holocaust, it was something done by non-Americans to Jews, and so is the sort of genocide we feel we can safely discuss without too much prickling at our own failings as a country, unlike, say the genocide of the Native Americans or slavery.

Indeed, since America fought against Germany, we were theoretically on the right side of history for this one. So it becomes a safer way for us to address genocide, and also to distinguish ourselves, because even if we were once a nation that did this sort of thing, we are now a nation that fights against it.
posted by maxsparber at 8:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Maybe the AP blockbuster is this interpretation of Ryan's remarks: Ryan All But Concedes Hillary Will Be President.
posted by carmicha at 8:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, sorry, I wasn't aiming that at the immediate discussion of the blouse, it was more that I've heard quite a bit of generalized talk about Melania, and other models at various times, that makes it sound like they don't have an agency of their own much of the time, or aren't bright enough to make a meaningful statement about much of anything. I guess I framed my comment with that idea in mind without intending it to point towards any specific remark of the moment.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2016


That was so awful last night, the way he walked into the background of any and every shot of Hillary and lurched and jerked like an angry undead goon. And then threatening to put her in jail. In a President Debate. That certainly put the OMG into the Oy Vey.

Epic Meltdown to me but as to Joe Q Deplorable, what do I know ?
posted by y2karl at 8:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, AP, that's not a story. Nice try.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


As far as that comment about the moral high ground goes very few Americans know that we were actually terrible about Jewish refugees before the Holocaust was widely known.

Movies and popular history tends to make it seem as if the Americans entered the war to heroically save the Jewish people instead of having been vehemently opposed to saving them even while the situation for Jewish Europeans was known to be grim, if not to the full extent of grim that it was.

Sort of like the situation now with Syrian refugees, honestly.
posted by winna at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [61 favorites]


May be the AP blockbuster is this interpretation of Ryan's remarks: Ryan All But Concedes Hillary Will Win.

That's it. The reporter just tweeted that - it's just the full Ryan story.
posted by cashman at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2016


I really don't get why people are still surprised at Ryan's utter lack of morals. If Putin himself said he was taking power, Ryan would be there asking him how soon he could start starving poor people, eliminate health care, and prosecute women who get Abortions even if they were raped.

The man is a sociopath of the highest order, and will literally do anything to bring about an unholy mix of Randian "utopia" and The Handmaid's Tale.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Post-debate discussion by voters as heard on NPR this morning...

Black Pastor: It's been ten years since black Americans could feel included in this country.
NPR person: But that timeline includes President Obama's entire presidency! Are you saying that even the first black president...
Black Pastor: By refusing to accept Barack Obama as their president, racists in this country were sending a clear message.
NPR person, to cranky old white lady: Do you accept Barack Obama as your president?
Cranky Old White Lady: Nope.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [119 favorites]


Dear Jeff Sessions,
How about next Sunday when you're at church I come in and greet you by grabbing your crotch and squeezing tight. Then I lean over, do the same to your wife.

Then get back to me on whether it's assault or not.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Ryan's leaving himself room to unendorse if and when there are more tapes, I guess.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:32 AM on October 10

I laughed out loud at this little nugget that The Onion dropped during the debate: Paul Ryan Sitting Among Undecided Voters At Town Hall Debate
posted by Surely This at 8:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Ah, OK -- WWII. That makes sense, sort of... I was reading 'ancestors' as previous generations of Europeans and historical treatment of Jews in Europe, not parents and grandparents, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:55 AM on October 10, 2016


Crap, hit post before answering that I think sallybrown's interpretation is probably the right one, a sardonic comment that can be read in more than one way. Owning the quote and defying it simultaneously.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Somebody needs to slap Steve Peoples upside the head. A BREAKING NEWS ALERT for something everyone else reported 25 minutes ago? Come on man, step boldly into the 21st century.
posted by Justinian at 8:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN reporting that House GOP members are freaking out about Ryan's take, because it means they've lost the Supreme Court. Which is a good point - why the hell did they spend all this time standing beside Trump if they're going to give up now and lose the Court, which was the only reason many of them were supporting him in the first place.

A good lesson: do the right thing by your own conscience. Don't make a moral compromise based on a political calculation.

Not that any of them will learn that lesson, if they haven't by this point in their lives.
posted by sallybrown at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


To understand the Republicans' current dilemma remember that they've been promising their base a pony for the last 20+ years. Every election it's PONY PONY PONY and they've never been able to fully deliver -- the best they've done is a a movement conservative dressed-up in a pantomime horse costume that can hold the base's attention for 1-2 cycles. But it's not a *real* pony.

With Trump the base finally got their pony and his mane is magnificent. They love him. Unfortunately it turns out the pony has rabies and no one in the Republican leadership wants to be the one to tell the base that they have to put the pony down.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [114 favorites]


To understand the Republicans' current dilemma remember that they've been promising their base a pony for the last 20+ years. Every election it's PONY PONY PONY and they've never been able to fully deliver -- the best they've done is a a movement conservative dressed-up in a pantomime horse costume that can hold the base's attention for 1-2 cycles. But it's not a *real* pony.

Vote Vermin Supreme 2016! PONIES FOR ALL.
posted by dis_integration at 9:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


New Polling:Clinton leads Trump 46%-35%, per latest @NBCNews/@wsj poll, completed pre-debate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump's scandals bury his other scandals.

I can't believe that he defended Russia's actions in Syria and forced Pence to backtrack on his (briefly) courageous stance opposing Putin. How blatant can a treasonous candidate get?
posted by msalt at 9:01 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yep, NBC pre-debate poll has Clinton up by double digits in the 4-way race.
posted by Justinian at 9:01 AM on October 10, 2016


I was reading 'ancestors' as previous generations of Europeans and historical treatment of Jews in Europe, not parents and grandparents, etc.

Yeah, you don't need to go back very far at all before the narrative starts becoming a lot more complicated. And you don't need to go to Europe. If your town has ever had a Mount Sinai hospital, it is likely because other hospitals discriminated against Jews both as patients as a medical professionals.

It's pretty recent history. My mother worked at the Minneapolis Mt. Sinai. It started because Jewish doctors were being discriminated against. In 1947.

After World war II, after the world found out about the Holocaust.
posted by maxsparber at 9:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


JUST IN: New NBC/WSJ poll *post-tape*:
2-WAY
Clinton 52
Trump 38

4-WAY
Clinton 46
Trump 35
Johnson 9
Stein 2

Oct 8-9 (pre-debate) +/-4.6%
(twitter)

*cracks knuckles*
posted by sallybrown at 9:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [39 favorites]


People still make third-party protest votes after 2000, and still care about "relatability" after 2004, and still don't bother showing up for midterms after 2010.

I would believe the "Trump will poison the GOP for years" narrative if there were any evidence of voters having memories longer than 20 days.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [37 favorites]


If Clinton wins, I wonder if the right is going to consider the possibility of just blocking any Supreme Court nominee. Their base would probably love it.
posted by drezdn at 9:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jesus, Clinton is up 14 points (52-38) in the two way in the NBC/WSJ poll.

A 14 point win crushes the Republicans to the point that they lose the House much less the Senate.
posted by Justinian at 9:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Two-way in new natl NBC/WSJ (conducted after Fri news but before debate)
HRC 52
Trump 38

Was Clinton +7 in Sept
Oct 8-9, LVs)
posted by zombieflanders at 9:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


To be fair, a lot of politics is about moral compromise.

You just have to make the right moral compromises.
posted by Devonian at 9:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was reading 'ancestors' as previous generations of Europeans and historical treatment of Jews in Europe, not parents and grandparents, etc.

Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I said "they or their ancestors" because in some cases, this sentiment comes from people who actually served in WWII (a quickly dwindling cohort, due to age), but more often it's the descendants of those people.

It's a lot easier for many white americans to engage with the Holocaust because they can point to their father / grandfather / uncle / etc. who served in the armed forces, or their mother / grandmother / aunt who worked in factories to produce the materials required to fight the Nazis, so obviously "we" were the good guys there. It's a lot harder for those same people to even acknowledge the completely indefensible shit their earlier ancestors did to a variety of groups.

To be more blunt, white americans don't get all up in arms about replacing monstrous shitheel Andrew Jackson on the $20 because they love Andrew Jackson. They get up in arms about it because to acknowledge that there are good reasons why he should be removed is to have to acknowledge a past they would rather pretend never happened.
posted by tocts at 9:05 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'd say that a lot of politics is about compromises, but not all compromises are moral compromises. You can make compromises without compromising your own morality. That does presuppose that you have a morality in the first place, though.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


A 14 point win crushes the Republicans to the point that they lose the House much less the Senate.

And this measures likely voters in a normal Presidential election. It doesn't take into account Trump's total lack of ground game.
posted by sallybrown at 9:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


This was his chance to draw a line between himself and Trump, for his own personal benefit, and for the Republican party's benefit, and start the process of shaping a new, non-Trumpist party. But he didn't. And that's surprising, to me, because I don't see what his end-game is here -- where is his endorsement-but-not really leading him?

I think Paul Ryan is trying to prevent Trump from coming out and disowning the GOP and Ryan completely. A lot of resentful and angry people have invested themselves into Trump being their agent of change, and if Trump were to come out and disown Ryan and his leadership it could lead to even further damage to the down-ballot for Republicans. Which would be amazing.
posted by airish at 9:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


A 14 point win crushes the Republicans to the point that they lose the House much less the Senate.

Maybe. We'll certainly see more vote-splitting than normal, the only question is how much more. Plenty of people will vote for Clinton (or Johnson, or no one) and still support down-ticket Republicans, especially incumbents.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Hillary will win, but I do have a slight worry about people that publicly won't admit to voting for Trump, but who will hold their nose and vote for him when it's time to mark the ballot.
posted by drezdn at 9:08 AM on October 10, 2016


Ahem

Congressional preference in new NBC/WSJ:
D+7 -- 49%-42%

That is the highest Dem advantage in the NBC/WSJ poll since Oct '13 (gvt shutdown)

(twitter)
posted by sallybrown at 9:08 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


We might be at the tipping point for the flood gates busting open. If the RNC tells candidates it's OK to disavow Trump to save their own bacon, it's going to be open season with anyone in a 10-point race or closer throwing him under the bus. At that point it's a vicious cycle.

It's also potentially when Republicans find out that gerrymandering is a double-edged blade - if you drew your districts 55/45 +R v. 90/10 +D, you are incredibly vulnerable to a 6-point swing.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think Paul Ryan is trying to prevent Trump from coming out and disowning the GOP and Ryan completely. A lot of resentful and angry people have invested themselves into Trump being their agent of change, and if Trump were to come out and disown Ryan and his leadership it could lead to even further damage to the down-ballot for Republicans. Which would be amazing.


Oooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr it causes a lot of people to say "Oh, I guess the GOP isn't the party of Trump after all!" and feel a lot better about voting Republican downticket.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Hillary will win, but I do have a slight worry about people that publicly won't admit to voting for Trump, but who will hold their nose and vote for him when it's time to mark the ballot.

I think it will be the opposite. Lots of big "locker room" talk about supporting Trump for identity reasons, but people chickening out when they are alone in a voting booth and can't bring themselves to fuck their country over in this manner.
posted by sallybrown at 9:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's also potentially when Republicans find out that gerrymandering is a double-edged blade - if you drew your districts 55/45 +R v. 90/10 +D, you are incredibly vulnerable to a 6-point swing.

They drew them 60-65/35-40 vs 2012.

They thought "meh, ten point swing should be enough".
posted by Talez at 9:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would not assume a 14 point lead for Clinton means a 14 point downballot lead. A lot of the people peeling off are Republicans who plan to enthusiastically vote the downballot, while doing something or other with the presidency. I mean, I'm still voting mostly R downballot, my Clinton over Trump preference doesn't say anything about my overall politics.
posted by corb at 9:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Erin Gloria Ryan
‏@morninggloria
Reince Priebus inserts his hand into a pot of boiling water. He closes his eyes and emits a noise of pleasure. It's nice to feel.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


CNN: Paul Ryan said he won't defend Donald Trump. He'll focus on preserving his party's hold on Congress instead.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:13 AM on October 10, 2016


Trump favorability down to 29 in same poll. Near the magic Keyes line!
posted by argybarg at 9:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'd say that a lot of politics is about compromises, but not all compromises are moral compromises. You can make compromises without compromising your own morality.

Politics is, however, almost always about moral calculus. Nothing and nobody is ever wholly pure, so, for those of us who do have a moral compass, we must determine which moral values should (and do) hold more weight for us.

This is not "compromising" our morality, it is discovering it.

I suspect that right now there are more than a few Republicans who are discovering some very unpleasant and (if I am to give just the slightest benefit of the doubt to at least a few of these folks) unwelcome things about themselves.
posted by dersins at 9:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


The electoral-vote.com map is kind of amazing this morning. I don't think I've ever seen it so blue before, even at the height of the post-DNC Khan meltdown. Not a single traditional battleground is even leaning red. I doubt it incorporates this Clinton +12 poll either.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kind of strange and unexpected: CNN reporting that -
The second Clinton-Trump debate had about 20% fewer viewers than the first face-off did.

Why the drop-off? The "Sunday Night Football" game was definitely a factor. There is speculation that the ugly, bitter nature of the presidential campaign also had something to do with it.

"I think people are repulsed by it now," a senior TV executive said Monday morning when the overnight ratings came in.
I guess the tic tac Trump tape was all some people needed to see?
posted by sallybrown at 9:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Utah's Deseret News, of all places, had this great line in their unprecedented Trump anti-endorsement:

"America’s locker rooms deserve better."

I wonder if there's more to that than just wit. Millions of Americans are now retconning their memories of locker room banter to include boasts about sexual assault, in order to justify their vote for Trump. I don't claim to know what that's going to do to the national psyche, but it can't be good.
posted by gurple at 9:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Tic-tac-Trump sounds like the most unpleasant board game Kickstarter campaign in history.

You really don't want to know what the exclusive $1,000 tier gets you.
posted by tocts at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Several of my friends have been in tears since the tape broke because it triggered their own sexual assaults. There are women who couldn't watch the debate because it's too painful to see this known abuser speak. I can't believe this is our reality.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [46 favorites]


Kind of strange and unexpected

Don't agree with that, lots of folks predicted this. That's why debate #1 was so important. Undecideds tuned in to make a choice. They did. Nothing has changed that (lol, to the contrary) since then.

Call Ke$ha motherf***rs cuz it's timberrrrrrrrr time.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure how they count ratings but I suspect a lot of people tuned in to see how Trump would respond to the tape question and turned it off after ten minutes.
posted by theodolite at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Too much of a split can be bad, because then Trump is the "underdog". I Believe something similar happened in the Canadian election where it was perceived that Trudeau would possibly squeak by with a narrow margin until the polls less than 24 hours ahead of voting (so, not widely reported on due to Elections Canada) suddenly showed he would sweep the House with a majority (which he did).

People like to think their individual vote matters, and if the swing is too far on one side they are more likely to put in a protest vote or not vote at all (from both the probable winning and losing side).
posted by saucysault at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2016


This morning I got up and the perfect simile came to mind to capture my feeling about the whole of yesterday: it was like a network police procedural where a rape victim has to testify in court, and the rapist is representing himself so he gets to cross-examine her on the stand and the whole dramatic moment is will she lose her shit at the unbelievably awful culmination of a bunch of awful lead-ups? And of course, Iron Hillary didn't even look bothered by it. Holy God, the poise on that woman.
posted by fatbird at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


So, is Ted Cruz still manning the phone ? A big Nelson Muntz ha ha & well played, sir to snake eyes him.
posted by y2karl at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Doesn't the second debate always have a smaller viewership? And the third will be lower still.

20% is a big drop but a drop should have been expected, and given the record ratings for the first debate perhaps a big drop was baked in.
posted by Justinian at 9:19 AM on October 10, 2016


So if Trump wins, can I openly discuss committing violent crimes against the POTUS, as long as I do it in a locker room? That's cool, right? It's just words.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:20 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think people are repulsed by it now

Overheard hot takes around the office certainly corroborate this. And I can completely understand being repulsed but it troubles me on two levels:

1. The privileged should not avert our eyes when faced with even the basest expressions of racism, misogyny and xenophobia. It doesn't go away just because we're not looking. We're not toddlers. Privileged people who think that there's nothing to learn from watching this all go down are going to continue to be shocked--shocked!--every time it happens again, which it will if we don't pay close attention right fucking now.

2. Everyone seems to feel the need to include HRC in with the "the whole thing repulses me" rhetoric. And, like, she still has to run. She can't just ignore him and watch the game instead. So I don't know what people would like her to do that would take away the taint that the whole spectacle is putting on her. But I hate hearing people try to pull this "both sides are gross" nonsense just because someone is being gross to her and she has to smile and take it in order to do her damn job.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [57 favorites]


*Except for the assholes down the block who chose this weekend of all weekends to put their Trump yard sign out. Way to dial it up to 11, guys. I can see that shit from my back window, it's enraging. They just moved in, so I guess thanks for letting everyone know that you're terrible?

The other day, I was noticing the complete lack of campaign signs in my neighborhood, and reflecting that it's probably a good thing. We have to be neighbors; we watch each others' kids, and help out if people's power goes out, and return lost dogs, and recommend roofers to each other. It's probably for the best if we don't know each other's political views, especially right now.
posted by not that girl at 9:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


We're not Canada, Americans like to vote for the winner or at least not be feel like a loser. Especially fair-weather political fans like Trump's. We're going to see a turnout drop off that makes 3rd quarter Miami heat fans look devoted. Book it yall.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Melania knows the difference between herself accepting Donald Trump as her husband and America voting Donald Trump as their president. So yes, I believe if she were given the choice, Melania would have worn the blouse deliberately-- same as I believe her convention speech call backs to Michelle Obama's speech and the Rick-Roll line were deliberate. But she is on record as the choice being unintentional. And she has worn long sleeves before at events that were aimed at shoring up conservative support such as the convention .
posted by beaning at 9:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Everyone seems to feel the need to include HRC in with the "the whole thing repulses me" rhetoric.

Yup. And that's basically Trump's strategy right now, flinging enough shit that people think "Oh, both sides are just awful," tune out, and make a party line vote.

That first audience question--about how the first debate should have been rated MA--kind of encapsulates that vague disgust.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


> I would believe the "Trump will poison the GOP for years" narrative if there were any evidence of voters having memories longer than 20 days.

Today's world is more about narratives than individual memory. Benghazi was 4 years ago, President Obama produced the long-form birth certificate 8 years ago, and Bill Clinton (who is not the same person as Hillary Clinton, despite being married to her) was impeached in 1998, 18 years ago, far longer than 20 days.

There are still those desperately clinging to narratives of those eras. I'm certainly not immune either. I bought, hook, line, and sinker, the narrative that President Bush is an idiot. Who can forget the picture of him trying to read an upside down book to school children? Being silly with a group of children is fun and entertaining, and no one could actually believe he can't read, right? Yet 2001 was 15 years ago, the details are fuzzy, but that's what I can remember.
posted by fragmede at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would not assume a 14 point lead for Clinton means a 14 point downballot lead.

100 times this. Democratic Senate candidates were trailing Clinton, in most cases badly, before Friday. There's already a high amount of ticket splitting reflected in the polling, a Trump washout does not directly translate to a Senate victory for Democrats, much less the House in play. Voters are not *entirely* sheeple who vote straight ticket.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton up by double digits after tape's release

Clinton leads Trump by 14 points, 52 percent to 38 percent, in the new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll conducted on Saturday and Sunday. In a four-way matchup, Clinton leads by 11 points, 46 percent to 35 percent, with Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson getting 9 percent.

During the last NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll in September, Clinton led Trump by 7 points in the two-way race and 6 points in the four-way scenario.
posted by joedan at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


My local Representative (Michigan 11th, low-key Tea Partier) has basically given up on Trump winning. All of his campaign emails at this point are about how he'll be keeping "the next president" from continuing the liberal Obama agenda.
posted by Etrigan at 9:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


And she has worn long sleeves before at events that were aimed at shoring up conservative support such as the convention.

Wait, what? I thought the talk about her blouse just had to do with it being called a "pussy bow" blouse. What are you talking about?

But really, the whole thing just seems silly to me.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just wanted to highlight something that's probably going to get buried amidst the rest of Trump's terrible ramblings because it's merely (hah) uninformed and stupid rather than outright inflammatory and/or false: during his whole spiel where he was berating Clinton for not closing whatever tax loopholes he took advantage of (which, by the way, we only have circumstantial evidence because of, well, y'know) and saying dumb shit like how if she were an "effective senator" she could have gotten it done. At this point, I'm hollering at the TV "That's not how government works! That's not how any of this works!" Clinton raised the issue of veto but didn't have the time (nor would it have really worked out in the format) to truly smack down how stupid this line of attack really is.

I've previously drawn an analogy between sports and politics and how people expect much more from their sports coaches than from their politicians. The analogy here, I think, would be if Trump went on a rant about how some wide receiver was such a ball hog because he kept calling pass plays even though he was being double-covered or how a defensive lineman wasn't providing enough protection for his quarterback. If some jabroni called into a local AM sports talk radio show with this kind of rant, the hosts would laugh him and his ignorance off the air. If the same jabroni were being considered to be a head coach of an NFL (or NCAA even a Pop Warner) team, you'd have to wonder if the people in charge had gone completely off the deep end.

The only way that this doesn't immediately disqualify Trump on the grounds of incompetence is that either people don't know or don't care (or both!) that he doesn't know how government works.
posted by mhum at 9:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


The only way that this doesn't immediately disqualify Trump on the grounds of incompetence is that either people don't know or don't care (or both!) that he doesn't know how government works.

We're far past that. He promised to attempt to jail his political opponent if elected into office. Incompetence at this point is like finding out the blind and deaf driver was also DUI.
posted by Talez at 9:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


> that's basically Trump's strategy right now, flinging enough shit that people think "Oh, both sides are just awful," tune out, and make a party line vote

I get irritated by the people who jokingly say they're voting for Giant Fireball 2016, or whatever the joke is. No, both sides are not awful. One side is awful (and deserves the giant meteor), one side is great-to-standard depending on how you feel about things.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [40 favorites]


Melania's dress was made to laugh at us who thought his statements were disgusting.

This is the troll campaign, after all.
posted by Yowser at 9:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yo, people don't understand how government works.

My own mother, who listens to NPR every day, sometimes reads the Economist, and is reasonably well-informed, expressed disappointment that Obama didn't do everything he said he was going to do and I was like BUT CONGRESS and she was like "meh."
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


I obviously have to post this: Shakespeare Explains the 2016 Election
posted by bardophile at 9:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing...

Putting party before country humanity.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


One bright spot was seeing how animated Hillary becomes when she's actually given the chance to talk policy. It seemed like she only went over her time when she was on a roll discussing her proposals, and how the ACA was working in some aspects but not in others. Aside from everything else, this election has been a tragedy in not allowing her to demonstrate her true wonkery skills to the general public.
posted by Think_Long at 9:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


Married WOMEN who say they are voting for Hillary Clinton: 45%.

Married MEN who think their SPOUSE is voting for Hillary Clinton: 33%
posted by Talez at 9:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [123 favorites]


And she has worn long sleeves before at events that were aimed at shoring up conservative support such as the convention.

Wait, what? I thought the talk about her blouse just had to do with it being called a "pussy bow" blouse. What are you talking about?

But really, the whole thing just seems silly to me.

There was an earlier comment that she chose it deliberately because she typically does not wear sleeves. Well, (a) she's also been known to dress to the audience, such as at the convention and (b) if/when Trump needs to shore up conservative cred, then she has dressed conservatively such as at the convention.

And I agree this is a very moot issue, and I'm mostly just bored at work and so will be dropping it.
posted by beaning at 9:37 AM on October 10, 2016


Politiquette on Melania Trump's blouse.
posted by bardophile at 9:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The blouse? I think it was arranged in order in a closet, weeks in advance. The bow is a funny coincidence. They didn't think, to think back on it. Or else the fashionistas just laughed their heads off because of the time bomb in her closet.

The debate, the looming, finger pointing, the emotion from Trump, he wanted an intimate relationship with her in public at this debate. That is what has suddenly seeped into my thinking. He wanted to psyche her out in his way, and create fear in her, the finger pointing is a sort of shamanistic hope to pierce her armor of perfection and expertise. He wanted her to be scared, he wanted to have a intimate, domineering, relationship in front of the world. All he knows is intimacy, because he is so narcissistic, he is not capable of a broader view.

This is the scary world of big players, oligarchs, straw men, money men. They are not capable of world view, or universal human values that define higher level interaction. They bully with money and ultimately weapons, with the media as intermediary; then they they retreat to their lairs. This sad lack of social evolution is a symptom of pure materialism. No higher order thinking or planning, except for aggression or defense.
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


And the other thing that sticks in my mind is how he thinks furniture-shopping is an aphrodisiac.

apparently, it is.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Talez: He promised to attempt to jail his political opponent if elected into office.

Flipping channels on this Columbus Native People's Day, The View called Donnie's promise to throw HRC in jail because of those emails akin to something done in a Banana Republic or under a despot. Mind you, Whoopi Goldberg fought with Trump on The View back in April, so this isn't the first time they've spoken against The Orange One.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:40 AM on October 10, 2016


There was an earlier comment that she chose it deliberately because she typically does not wear sleeves.

Not just sleeves. It's a completely different look overall than her usual style of a sleek dress without a lot of detail around her neck (fussy bows, scarves, brooches, or necklaces). She rarely wears blouses rather than a dress. I know this sounds kind of strange, but I've noticed this about her because I tend toward the same thing, and because this is how I would choose to express myself in her kind-of-hamstrung position. JMO and I know I'm probably reading too much of myself into it, but that's my intuition.
posted by sallybrown at 9:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really wanted Anderson Cooper to press Trump about the tape just one more time: "Okay, so you never did those things you talked about, but you engaged in that kind of talk why? As a married 59 year old with a baby on the way you thought talking about grabbing women's genitals was how you wanted to impress Billy Bush?"
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Anecdote: A member of a Hillary group I'm in reports that she was discussing Kathy Shelton case with a Trump supporter and had to explain that Hillary was representing the defendant. Trump supporter was shocked that Hillary was a lawyer, thought she had been a stay-at-home mom. The mis/low-information out there is just ridiculous. We're voting for president here. Does nobody realize that?
posted by Sophie1 at 9:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [73 favorites]


Married WOMEN who say they are voting for Hillary Clinton: 45%.

Married MEN who think their SPOUSE is voting for Hillary Clinton: 33%

19th Amendment solutions, yo.
posted by jedicus at 9:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [100 favorites]


>The only way that this doesn't immediately disqualify Trump on the grounds of incompetence is that either people don't know or don't care (or both!) that he doesn't know how government works.

If this election cycle has made one thing resoundingly clear, it's that there's no such thing as being disqualified on the grounds of incompetence. A potted plant can be president if it was born in the US more than 35 years ago, and people vote for it.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Rhaomi: Politico: Trump is wrong: Hillary Clinton did not laugh about the rape of a 12-year-old

Politico, you could have made that statement a lot shorter: Trump is wrong.

The end.

Related: Stephen Colbert provides an animated version of Fact checkers watching Trump's debate performance (Radical Edward going all noodly)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks for replying, beaning. I missed that earlier.

I do agree that the whole family is now trying to project a more traditionally conservative image. Doing everything they can to run away from the swinging playboy image that Trump had tried so hard to project before.

I definitely don't think that there's any serious fracture going on between Donald and Melania. She's known who he is for a long, long time.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, as sallybrown says, I'm just going by my gut here, in my case more based on women I've known that have some seeming commonality with Melania. I'm not surprised to hear her say it wasn't intentional, and perhaps it wasn't, but I would expect that's what she'd say even if it were chosen deliberately without Trump's approval. So I obviously won't make a factual claim about the choice, but I'm not going to completely write it off as empty of meaning either.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2016


Look at the other numbers too though.
Married men voting Trump - 49%
Married women who think their spouse is voting Trump - 41%

Married men voting Clinton - 31%
Married women who think their spouse is voting Clinton - 37%
posted by cashman at 9:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


I've heard some creepy shit and objectification, but I've still never had anyone brag to me about sexually assaulting women.

A friend, who I had grown up with as part of my local suburban neighbourhood 'street gang' that I played every possible sport with, who I played hide and seek with, who I watched the Letterman show with when it first came out (velcro!) told me about how some friends of his from another social circle urinated on a passed out drunk girl (who was even dating one of the pissers!) and he told it to me like it wasn't a disgusting thing. Sadly, I didn't say anything to him but our friendship pretty much ended after that because I couldn't stomach the fact that he thought those asshole friends of his were cool and what they did was funny.

This was one of those guys who should have been a friend for life.

I heard a lot of locker room talk like Trumps when I was younger but most of it was fake posing adolescent bullshit of boys trying to figure out how to be men. Young men grow out of it. But every now and then there was a story that creeped me the fuck out. I think lots of men are like me and just prune those branches off their friendship tree.

Then they fall into a basket of deplorables and all hang out together and normalize each other's behaviours.

Which is why you get some men saying "I never heard anything like this" and others saying "I hear this kind of stuff all the time". People self sort.
posted by srboisvert at 9:49 AM on October 10, 2016 [97 favorites]


some friends of his from another social circle urinated on a passed out drunk girl (who was even dating one of the pissers!) and he told it to me like it wasn't a disgusting thing

jesus christ (not blaming you, just...jesus christ)
posted by sallybrown at 9:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Not all married women are married to men. Not all married men are married to women. I agree there's probably some degree of lying between spouses going on, but those numbers aren't as clear cut as folks are making them out to be.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


unfortunately Make America Stop Pissing On The Unconscious doesn't fit well on a hat
posted by delfin at 9:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


ActBlue sets up "October 7th Fund", funneling money to the opponents of Republicans who endorsed Trump until the pussy tape came out. As Rob Delaney puts it, No Getting Off the Train.
posted by Etrigan at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


@AnaNavarro:
Should Donald Trump drop out of the race? Yes. He should drop out of the human race. He is an animal. Apologies to animals.

In the comments people are mostly fighting about whether animals are "better" or "a lot better" than Trump.
posted by Tarumba at 9:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


Ana Navarro is like a two time national treasure for both Nicaragua and the US.
posted by corb at 9:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'd put him even with some spiders and most bedbugs
posted by cmfletcher at 9:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wasn't around for JFK, but I have this suspicion that a fair amount of the criticism he must have faced while campaigning is lost to history and probably came with the subtext of *cough*CATHOLIC*cough. I say this because so much of the criticism against HRC--not just from the right but from the "both sides have their issues" left, who seem cheerfully unaware of what an absurd standard they just so happen to be holding the female candidate against--seems like the kind of stuff people will conveniently wipe from their memories years from now.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Last night's Last Week Tonight wasn't live, so it didn't focus on the debate at all, but I was stunned by this montage of Billy Bush being an unapologetic creep over the years. It really underscored the fact that so much of this stuff that offends us when it's BREAKING NEWS from a LEAKED TAPE is actually out there in the open for anyone to see if they want to. I mean, he even creeps on Nancy O'Dell in that clip, and talks to a pubescent Justin Bieber about how "dark" and "exotic" Selena Gomez (certainly a minor at the time) was.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]



My local Representative (Michigan 11th, low-key Tea Partier) has basically given up on Trump winning.

Ugh, Dave Trott. That asswipe was sending me anti-Muslim/pro-2nd amendment shit a week or two after Orlando. He's as bad as Bentevolio, McCotter. The whole lot of Teapublicans in MI are just horrid. The state rep/senators too. (Think Snyder, but less slick and intelligent.)
posted by NorthernLite at 9:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'd put him even with some spiders and most bedbugs

Hey! Spiders have far more redeeming qualities than bedbugs OR Donald Trump. I'm friends with the spiders in my basement that hunt and kill the giant house spiders we have up here.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


As a man, I have had a dozen or so encounters with men who truly terrified me — not because they were big or directly violent, but because I could feel the bullying rage coming straight off them. Much as I would like to say I stood up to them in some noble way, in fact I stayed the hell away from them. I did not feel that any good was going to come of engaging with them.

Part of the terror of this election cycle is that Trump is one of those dozen or so: a genuinely sick, dangerous man. And I cannot disengage. It turns my own country into a small, sweaty closet into which I am locked with a depraved monster.
posted by argybarg at 9:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Governor of Nebraska Pete Ricketts cancels Tuesday's planned fundraiser with Pence:
Ricketts, son of billionaire TD Ameritrade founder Joe Ricketts, endorsed Trump before the Nebraska primary and well before the rest of the family — but after Trump essentially clinched the nomination with a win in the Indiana primary.

So far, the family’s outside money operation — composed of the Future45 super PAC and the 45Committee nonprofit — has signaled that it will proceed with an eight-figure ad campaign boosting Trump and attacking Clinton.
posted by sallybrown at 9:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wasn't around for JFK, but I have this suspicion that a fair amount of the criticism he must have faced while campaigning is lost to history and probably came with the subtext of *cough*CATHOLIC*cough.

In my experience, Irish Catholics have not and will never forget - it's something I was explicitly taught growing up. It's partially why he became such a cultural icon despite his very obvious misbehavior.
posted by sallybrown at 10:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Not all married women are married to men. Not all married men are married to women. I agree there's probably some degree of lying between spouses going on, but those numbers aren't as clear cut as folks are making them out to be.

As of a few months ago, Gallup estimated that 0.4% of US adults are married to a same-sex spouse, which includes the post-Obergefell surge in same-sex marriages. About 50% of US adults are married, so (all else being equal) adults in same-sex marriages account for about 1% of married adults. Not nothing, but much less than the spread on those questions.

The broader point about not making heteronormative assumptions stands, though.
posted by jedicus at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Did some more Wikileaks stuff drop today, I saw someone mention it on twitter, but the hashtag is a garbage fire.
posted by drezdn at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2016


I think I get what dirty old town is saying but JFK was only Catholic US president.

Edit: oh wait, I though it was meant to say that we'd sweep impossible standards away as "no big deal" going forward. Never mind.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2016


'pussy tape' it's just like 'sex tape' but a little more... uh... uh...
phew....
I think I'm just gonna back away from this one
posted by From Bklyn at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2016


Trump's Virginia Chair is planning to protest the GOP today.
posted by drezdn at 10:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


@BeauWillimon:
Yup. @VanJones68 sums it up in 10 seconds. #debate (video)
posted by chris24 at 10:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


As Rob Delaney puts it, No Getting Off the Train..

I dunno. Even if you've been Mr. Despicable the whole campaign, once you confess to sexual assault (the most important words of Trump's campaign so far have been that admission--"I don't even wait" i.e. he doesn't wait for consent), I think your followers are allowed to jump ship. Admission of clearly illegal (and violent) behavior is a step beyond "talk."
posted by mrgrimm at 10:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would not assume a 14 point lead for Clinton means a 14 point downballot lead.

That's true, though you start having to look at turnout if downballot Republicans selectively run away from Trump. (The LV screen in polls is going to be significant too.)

Trump having no real ground game of his own perhaps helps the GOP slightly here, because if Obvious Anagram decides to direct most of the Victory Fund money to state parties, there are places to spend it, versus telling Trump his field offices won't be funded.

The FEC reports on the 20th will be interesting to see where the Trump campaign is spending its money. Or not spending it.
posted by holgate at 10:03 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Warren Buffet responds to Trumps claim that he also takes a huge tax deduction every year by giving a detailed breakdown of his taxes.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [113 favorites]


I love the billionaire-to-(totally-not-a-)billionaire shade.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:07 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


As Rob Delaney puts it, No Getting Off the Train..

I dunno...

Oops. Realized he means pols, not voters. N'mind.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:08 AM on October 10, 2016


feloniousmonk: The electoral-vote.com map is kind of amazing this morning. I don't think I've ever seen it so blue before

E-V began posting state-by-state poll results on July 25. There've been two previous Clinton EV counts higher than today's, 358 for Clinton on August 18-22 and 368 for Clinton on August 13-14.

I don't have my full spreadsheet before me, but this is what you're seeing now -- Ohio and Arizona swinging:

Date   EV Totals    OH      AZ
Oct03  323/215     leanR    leanR
Oct04  323/215     weakR    leanR
Oct05  323/215     weakR    leanR
Oct06  323/215     leanR    leanR
Oct07  334/204     leanR    leanD  
0ct08  334/204     leanR    leanD
Oct09  334/18/186  tied     leanD
Oct10  352/186     leanD    leanD


I doubt it incorporates this Clinton +12 poll either.

There is a significant time lag in E-V's reporting as new polls come out because they aggregate over the previous two week worth of polls. They also dynamically re-assess, add, and drop specific polls as they prove reliable or not. In 2012, they actually posted two separate sets of results, one including Rasmussen and one not.

I've been using E-V to satisfy my horse-race jones since they started in 2004. Thanks to Votemaster and Zenger, I haven't really been worried about the eventual outcome this cycle: Clinton has never been below 270 EV a single day.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Sam Wang estimates Democrats would need a 6-8% national lead in order to take the house.
posted by joedan at 10:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Potomac Avenue: Over on AskMe, I'm making the claim that the most impactful small donations are too local statehouse races in swing states with purple legislatures. Here is a list of races targeted by the DLCC that could use a boost. I donated to a farmer and former teacher in WI (where I used to live) who has 36 twitter followers. Feels good frog.

I donated 10$ to each of the Kentucky races. I've been feeling upset/sad/guilty about what's going on there for a long while and not known how to help.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:12 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


That Buffet shade makes me want a version of the infamous Supa Hot Fire looping reaction GIF, but with besuited Wall Street-looking types.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Newspaper endorsement update time!
    Hillary Clinton       81	
    NOBODY                8	
    Gary Johnson          6	
    "Anyone But Trump"    4	
    Donald Trump          0
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Find Competitive Congressional Districts Near You
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:15 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


When I think of undecided voters I think of Morla from the Neverending Story
posted by Tarumba at 10:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Did some more Wikileaks stuff drop today, I saw someone mention it on twitter, but the hashtag is a garbage fire.

Yep. 2000 more podesta emails.
posted by dis_integration at 10:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


My own mother, who listens to NPR every day, sometimes reads the Economist, and is reasonably well-informed, expressed disappointment that Obama didn't do everything he said he was going to do and I was like BUT CONGRESS and she was like "meh."

Hell, people right here on MeFi do the same thing. Have a stroll through any of the political threads from the past eight years and you are sure to find someone angry because "Obama is the president he should be able to do more".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did some more Wikileaks stuff drop today, I saw someone mention it on twitter, but the hashtag is a garbage fire.

Apparently, but I've only seen /r/the_donald going over it so it hasn't been properly checked for bullshit yet. Supposed to be second part of the emails that were released the other day.
posted by charred husk at 10:17 AM on October 10, 2016


This morning has been exhausting. Just finished an over three hour conversation with my Dad about sexism and misogyny. Thought I would post about in more detail but realized that really most important thing is that it's the first time that he has listened deeply, like really deeply and was able to really see and understand how he has been sexist in his own life and not be all defensive. He started the conversation by asking me for help in understanding something that happened 50 years ago when he was in University because since last night he has been thinking about his life and things he's done.

It was hard and lots of emotional labor on all sides was expended but it was one of the best conversations I've ever had with him. I hope that one of the things coming out of this election are conversations like this because it really was all kinds of awesome. I'm not going to get into a whole lot of questioning of why it had to get this bad before such conversation happened I'm just glad that it did.
posted by Jalliah at 10:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [162 favorites]


According to that note in Potomac Avenue's link, Mr Buffet made charitable contributions last year of more than $2.85B.

The administration cost of that $2.85B must be enormous. Is that also captured in contributions number?
posted by notyou at 10:19 AM on October 10, 2016


Sign update - sometime between yesterday and now, someone in my (very liberal, vocal, community-oriented) neighborhood vandalized my neighbor's Black Lives Matter sign by crossing out "Black" and writing "All" - in pink paint pen.
posted by sallybrown at 10:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Buffett does most or all of his charitable giving to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
posted by theodolite at 10:23 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jeb Lund aka Mobutu Sese Seko, on the debate in RS:

Clinton saw a couple of opportunities last night to try to put Trump away on the subject of his groping comments and how they fit within his global capacity for being abhorrent. That she didn't pounce on them could reflect an understanding of just how easy it is to incite male-voter backlash by having a woman attack a man on the subject of what constitutes acceptable male behavior. (Perhaps she also realized that any specific attacks on male conduct would arm critics with specific terms they could use to describe her husband.)

On the other hand, Clinton has also repeatedly displayed an atavistic dedication to Beltway niceties and compromises that no longer exist, a view trapped in the amber of the first Clinton presidency. At a glance, that seemed to be the animating principle behind her campaign's quashing of its previous message that Donald Trump represented not a deviation from but the culmination of decades of Republican Party policy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:25 AM on October 10, 2016


We're going to find out that Meredith was the one who suggested Melania wear the pussy bow blouse
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:25 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump

Paul Ryan should spend more time on balancing the budget, jobs and illegal immigration and not waste his time on fighting Republican nominee


This seems...suboptimal.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


For the "Lesser of two evils" crowd:

@danmericaCNN
"More Democrats are voting for Clinton (as opposed to against Trump) than those for Trump (as opposed to against Clinton), per NBC poll" (with breakdown)
posted by chris24 at 10:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


He didn't even @-mention him. Is he hoping Ryan won't find out he said it?
posted by zachlipton at 10:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's a triangle-shaped piece of wood stuck in the Republican party right now, and Trump and his followers seem determined to push it in rather than take it out.
posted by drezdn at 10:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is going to be down the road this evening -- his event in Fayetteville got flooded out, so he's heading west after his Charlotte event instead.

I'd be tempted to show up with a balloon painted like his head to do the "no no no he never said that" thing, but I don't want to waste an evening near that schmuck.
posted by holgate at 10:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Best summary EVAR: "I will conduct the rest of the debate in loud sniffles, dog whistles and nonsense strings of letters. Ek! Ek!"
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Have a stroll through any of the political threads from the past eight years and you are sure to find someone angry because "Obama is the president he should be able to do more".

Well gosh, If only he had been willing to arrest his political opponents...
posted by happyroach at 10:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sign update - sometime between yesterday and now, someone in my (very liberal, vocal, community-oriented) neighborhood vandalized my neighbor's Black Lives Matter sign by crossing out "Black" and writing "All" - in pink paint pen.

Ugh that's awful. I just bought a condo in a new neighborhood. One of the things that makes me happy every day when I walk home from the T stop is that there is a church right as I turn onto my street, with not one but two Black Lives Matter signs and a rainbow flag. It feels like I'm leaving the rest of the world behind and coming home to a welcoming community. Not sure what I would do if I ever saw those signs taken down or vandalized.
posted by peacheater at 10:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm going to be even more wary than usual of any downticket predictions that aren't specifically rooted in downticket polls - between volatile turnout rates and higher than usual potential for ticket-splitting, I don't think anyone really knows what's going to happen there.
I'm also mentally adding a couple of points to the margin of error for presidential polls (and aggregates), because it's going to be pretty hard to accurately conduct a likely voter screen, even for those polls that have good track records.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 10:31 AM on October 10, 2016


Looks like Donald Trump may have lost the Red Sweater vote: Kenneth Bone says he's leaning toward Clinton.


posted by Tarumba at 10:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Voter registration finally went through for my never-voting husband! So I can attest to the fact that the debate is making people go HOLY FUCK NOT THAT.
posted by corb at 10:34 AM on October 10, 2016 [87 favorites]


The sniffs of Trump, compiled.
posted by beagle at 10:35 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Newspaper endorsement update time!
Hillary Clinton 81
NOBODY 8
Gary Johnson 6
"Anyone But Trump" 4
Donald Trump 0

   _______________________________
  | XXX Chicago Daily Tribune XXX |
  | -- NOBODY DEFEATS TRUMP!!  -- |
  |-------------------------------|
  |- -- --- |  0  [ii] |----- --- |
  | -- --- -| XXXx[ii] | - ---- - |
  |------ --| XXX      | - -- --- |
  |-- --- --|__________| -- ----- | 
  |----|--- | ----| - -|---- ---  |
  |--- | -- | -  -| -- |----| - - | 
  |_______________________________|

 
posted by Herodios at 10:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [37 favorites]


Trump’s One Public Service Was Exposing the Misogyny of the GOP

"Which is worse: Threatening to grab someone by the pussy or forcing someone to carry and give birth to a baby that is the result of rape? Which is worse: Popping a Tic Tac in preparation for forced extramarital kissing with a stranger or actively discouraging women’s full participation in the workforce? The answer is: None of these is worse; they are all of a kind. The view of women as yours to control via political power, star power, or simply patriarchal power, is what Republicans — not just Trump, but lots of Republicans — have been doing for years as they work to reduce reproductive-rights access and reinstall women in early marriage and traditional hetero homes where their competitive, independent, threatening power might be better contained."
posted by chris24 at 10:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [81 favorites]


Looks like Donald Trump may have lost the Red Sweater vote: Kenneth Bone says he's leaning toward Clinton.

All we need now is Bobby Knight and then the red sweater vote is sewn up!
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Given that style of blouse is very trendy right now, I'll believe the choice by her stylist is inadvertent...

I heard it was Meredith who picked it out for her.

[and after posting I see someone else made that joke. mea culpa]
posted by zakur at 10:37 AM on October 10, 2016


I have a hunch Ken Bone might poll above Stein in the next PPP poll.
posted by zachlipton at 10:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


Wait, I just realized something. If we're seeing 53 Clinton, 35 Trump, 9 Johnson, 1 Stein, does that mean...2% McMullin?

#keepingthedreamalive
posted by corb at 10:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


Bone/Harambe '16
posted by Groundhog Week at 10:39 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Always assume at least 2% Lizard People.
posted by delfin at 10:40 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


We've got one more debate. Anybody in reasonable distance to Las Vegas? You could win MetaFilter forever by holding up an Egg McMuffin '16 sign in the background of one of the cable news panels.
posted by zachlipton at 10:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


electoral-vote.com is helpful too because you can access data from previous elections.

Today, October 10, 2016.
October 10, 2012
October 10, 2008

This shows that HRC is more ahead of Trump than Obama was of Romney in 2012 and McCain in 2008.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


@danpfeiffer
"The danger for the GOP is thinking Trump is the problem when it is really the 40% of their party that believes in Trumpism"

Yep, Trump is merely the symptom. The disease is their racist, sexist, fascist base.
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [84 favorites]


You could win MetaFilter forever by holding up an Egg McMuffin '16 sign in the background of one of the cable news panels.

please this.
posted by corb at 10:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Can't neg the Egg!
posted by cmfletcher at 10:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Joy Ann Reid likes McMuffin and thought he should have been in the debate last night. Can't beat that kind of star power behind the Eggtrain.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


This election season has been educational in browsing the public consciousness about the toxic personalities in our midst and the strategies they use to gain power and control.
posted by humanfont at 10:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Looks like Donald Trump may have lost the Red Sweater vote: Kenneth Bone says he's leaning toward Clinton.

All we need now is Bobby Knight and then the red sweater vote is sewn up!

You mean we'll be able to knit up the ravell'd sleeve of care?
 
posted by Herodios at 10:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I love the billionaire-to-(totally-not-a-)billionaire shade.

Seriously. I could watch Buffett, Bloomberg, Romney, and Cuban trash Trump all day long. Like it doesn't make economic inequality or any of the other issues go away, but there's something special about Trump's alleged peers (if he's really all that rich) trash him. "Hey, I get that I'm a distant and detached bazillionaire, but this fuckin' guy..."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:45 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


Warren Buffet responds to Trumps claim that he also takes a huge tax deduction every year by giving a detailed breakdown of his taxes.

When I was heading out the door this morning, like, actually putting my lunch in my bag and getting my coat down from the coatstand by the door because it's cold outside today, I saw an e-mail from a client. Because I'm a good corporate minion, I dropped everything to respond and ended up standing in the foyer, talking to the client on the phone with one shoe on, holding the other in my free hand. I was happy to do it, because I'm a professional. Plus, I really like the guy, and I like helping people.

I'm trying to imagine being an accountant, and getting that e-mail or voicemail from Warren Buffett's office, saying in a low-key Midwestern way that Buffett wants his tax numbers ASAP because he is going to lay some Real Billionaire Burn on the disgusting orange groper.

I WOULD HAVE RUN UPSTAIRS AND OPENED CITRIX SO FAST, YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:45 AM on October 10, 2016 [136 favorites]


A powerful ad about voting from Save the Day, Vote.

Quiet
posted by chris24 at 10:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


In both debates, Donald started out by saying he agreed with Hillary. He is not innately stupid1, I think some part of him respects and admires her and wants her approval.

1 He's worse than stupid; he's stubbornly ignorant of facts, and when facts are thrust upon him, he rejects them, preferring lies that support his bigotry and greed.
posted by theora55 at 10:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


@onlxn, author of a seemingly endless stream of "Trump dialogues" on Twitter, has just started the second edition of #GiveMoreThanTrump, in which random people on the internet join together to donate more money to charity than Trump has since 2009. Today's cause is RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network). For every $5,000 that is raised, Owen will publish one page of "Groovy Movie," an unfinished screenplay by Trump's doctor Harold Bornstein.

The first edition raised over $80,000 for the American Refugee Committee.
posted by zachlipton at 10:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [38 favorites]


Warren Buffet responds to Trumps claim that he also takes a huge tax deduction every year by giving a detailed breakdown of his taxes.

As Buffett pointed out, he contributed $2.85 billion to the Bill and Melinda Gates charity. However, he only deducted $3.47 million of that from his income taxes, about 0.1%. That is because the law limits charity deductions for private foundations to no more than 30% of your gross income for the year. His gross income was $11.6 million so his charity deduction was limited to 30% of that even though he donated billions.

This pertains to Trump's claims that he directed income from his TV show and from his businesses into his charity tax-free. His argument is that these would be deductible since he could have if he had first declared them as income and then donating to the charity himself.

However, as the Buffett case shows, most of those donations would not have been deductible because they would have exceeded 30% of his gross income (presumed nearly zero). So once again Trump, by invoking Buffett, highlights his own tax fraud.
posted by JackFlash at 10:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [90 favorites]


Just want to thank everyone who liveblogged during the debate for all of the fantastic contextual information. I just finished (phew!) and you are all amazing. It was a delightfully readable thread after the fact (so double big thanks to LobsterMitten for keeping everyone in line!). I would also like to nominate futz's comment on what Donald looked like for the mefi election wiki's hilarity section.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


What I was trying to say with the JFK analogy is while you'd hope thirty years after JFK, there'd be people saying, "Wow, we were needlessly tough on that candidate simply for being Catholic" I've never actually heard anyone make that kind of mea culpa. And I doubt people will be coming out of the woodwork in 30 years admitting, "Wow, we really went after Clinton and it was mostly all about her gender."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


There is something so Buffet about Warren Buffet having a copy of every single tax return from the time he was 13 onward.
posted by Think_Long at 10:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [51 favorites]


Nine-year old Buffet had three different paper routes, didn't he? You know he did.
posted by rokusan at 10:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Has anyone done the math on how much of what comes out of Trump's mouth is not unadulterated bullshit?
posted by Mooski at 10:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's 2016: Woman On Upper East Side Yells, 'Go Back To China' At (American) NY Times Editor
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Excuse me, but did you fucking watch the 2004 election? Because I didn't // Did you people really live through all that and figure you were just watching an unpleasant political disagreement?

I was 15 for the 2000 election. I volunteered at the offices for local races. I watched Rick Lazio get in Hillary Clinton's face in the NY Senate debate. In 2004 I volunteered with the Howard Dean campaign and ended up working with the DNC on GOTV efforts. Have you ever been spit on at work? How about having the cops called on you, or any number of shouted and whispered threats. A young age is an awful excuse for not getting involved, and it's definitely not the sort of thing you want to bring up when you scold other people.

I'm sorry you didn't watch it. You could have learned something.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


FYI, the Save the Day, Vote ad above was done by Joss Whedon.
posted by chris24 at 10:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Naval War College professor Tom Nichols is alarmed (and he's not alone):
Pace @Tracinski, it's a red flag when political scientists of various political stripes warn you that Trump did something very dangerous.
We're the people who've studied how other governments work - and how they fail. And when we see the early warning signs, you should too. /2
There's plenty of room between me, @dandrezner, @BrendanNyhan, and others. But when we all zero in on the same thing, it's not bias. /3
Think of political scientists this morning as oncologists who've just told you that they don't like the looks of that lump on your neck. /4
It might be nothing, and likely survivable, but we've seen it before. And we know what it could mean. /5x
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:59 AM on October 10, 2016 [104 favorites]


"There is something so Buffet about Warren Buffet having a copy of every single tax return from the time he was 13 onward."

And calling himself a slow starter

I still don't know how taxes work

I'm 32
posted by Tarumba at 11:00 AM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Reporting from today's Trump rally in Ambridge, PA (about twenty miles NW of Pittsburgh). The Trump Truck is worth the click.
posted by octothorpe at 11:02 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Current fave tweet: She grabbed him by the polls
posted by prefpara at 11:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]



It's 2016: Woman On Upper East Side Yells, 'Go Back To China' At (American) NY Times Editor

I wish people with experiences like this could get a fraction of the sympathy we are being asked to have for the white Trump voter.
posted by zutalors! at 11:06 AM on October 10, 2016 [103 favorites]


Wow, that NY Times editor letter is chilling. I keep saying that though the atmosphere of racism and prejudice is chilling, I haven't personally experienced anything overtly racist. I wonder if it's only a matter of time.
posted by peacheater at 11:08 AM on October 10, 2016


David Taube @david_taube
People just brought out a massive Trump-Putin flag
12:53 PM - 10 Oct 2016

Excuse me while I go look for my passport.
posted by Tarumba at 11:08 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has anyone done the math on how much of what comes out of Trump's mouth is not unadulterated bullshit?

politifact has you covered. It looks like he's at best 70-percent full of the proverbial bull excrement.
posted by philip-random at 11:09 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Paul Ryan used Trump's supporters to get radiation sickness/poisoning in a modern and secular democracy.

I love it when /r/SubredditSimulator gets political. The pro-Trump stuff sounds just as incoherent as his followers.
posted by charred husk at 11:10 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: This reminds me of Lincoln
Audience: ???
Trump: The human president, not the car, not the towncar
Audience: Ohhhh

Nah, that was classic high school debate stalling.

That's a very good question, Secretary. And by Secretary, I mean Secretary Clinton. A very good question, and I believe it deserves an answer. I'm going to answer that, and this is what I'm going to say. Your question is about Lincoln. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're referring to former President Abraham Lincoln. [crap, I got nothing here]
posted by ctmf at 11:11 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


@AriMelber
Trump's pledge to jail Clinton - which Pence just defended today - was literally one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon: (image of article)
posted by chris24 at 11:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [67 favorites]


Btw, my friend wrote a book about Trump's wrestling connection. Seems a good a time as any to post:
The Donald
How Trump Turned Presidential Politics into Pro Wrestling
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:13 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Question for Secretary Clinton:
posted by entropicamericana at 11:14 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't slander Ken Bone with canned unfunny memes calling him a nerd or fat or whatever. He is a wonderful dude with a cool name and he gets the joke.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:17 AM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


I will not have the dignity of professional wrestling insulted in this fashion.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Don't slander Ken Bone with canned unfunny memes calling him a nerd or fat or whatever. He is a wonderful dude with a cool name and he gets the joke.

That's one of four or five accounts that claim to be him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


i would never joke about anything as serious as kbone
posted by entropicamericana at 11:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary Clinton, the Sixth Amendment, and Legal Ethics
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:20 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


He is a wonderful dude

No. I watched him on television a few hours ago, and he said leading up to the debate he had been favoring voting for Donald Trump.

Banning muslims? Mexicans are rapists and criminals? Build a wall? Birtherism? "Grab them by the ****"? Dude was okay with all of that and going to vote for Trump.
posted by cashman at 11:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


If you asked this Kenneth what the frequency is, he would tell you, and then you would want to hug him for it
posted by middleclasstool at 11:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ken Bone wasn't the only memeworthy town hall participant!
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Did you people really live through [the 2004 election] and figure you were just watching an unpleasant political disagreement?

I'm still livid about the Purple Heart Bandaids. It was so disrespectful to those who were injured in war, cold-heartedly done to insult someone who had the guts to get fsking three of them because he voluntarily went back after fulfilling his draft obligations. To watch a bunch of people claim they were for the military while sporting Purple Heart Bandaids was enraging, as was the collective shrug on the part of most of the military voters who remained staunchly Republican despite that entire party embracing this insult to injuries gained during war. I have never understood why and how that worked; it seemed so baldly disgusting and disrespectful to me but people acted like it was ...funny. Or something.

The fact that it did work got me looking for how the rhetoric and actions don't align and made me focus a lot more on what people have done rather than what they say. What got me for Clinton was learning about her actions and seeing them in play; the incredible inclusivity of the DNC, the stories of her taking a personal interest in helping people, her long history of pragmatically working with people - all of those matter to me a lot more than her words as a debate because I've seen for my entire lifetime how tissue thin rhetoric can be.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [50 favorites]


I posted to facebook, asking I've read a lot of articles in respected publications detailing why I should not vote for Trump and why I should vote for Clinton. Has anybody got a good article that supports Trump? Seriously
Nuthin. There is no reasoned choice for Trump. I have a hard time accepting that so many people are voting their emotions and choosing such bigotry.
posted by theora55 at 11:21 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


He confirmed that @kenbone18 is the real Ken Bone in one of the TV or radio interviews he did today.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


>Trump is merely the symptom. The disease is their racist, sexist, fascist base.

Yeah, but that's not a curable disease. In fact the base is likely to cure itself of having representatives who were just corporate shills who weren't THAT serious about being openly racist/fascist.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:22 AM on October 10, 2016


Ryan is worried about the blowback from the rank and file if he withdraws his endorsement. He's worried about his Speakership.

I can't believe he thinks that this weaselly "non-un-endorsement un-endorsement" will make him immune to blowback or the tender mercies of Trump and his vicious supporters. Let me know how that works out for you, Paul.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:22 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


People just brought out a massive Trump-Putin flag

The thing of America: when the USSR was oppressive and terrible but still provided some benefits to its citizens in terms of guaranteeing health care, education, housing and many measures of gender equality, they were the Evil Empire and we hated them. Now that Russia is oppressive and terrible and run by homophobic, woman-hating, racist super-wealthy new money who provide zero benefits to ordinary people in terms of health care, education, etc , many Americans seem eager to leap onboard.
posted by Frowner at 11:23 AM on October 10, 2016 [88 favorites]


Not on board with the instant meme-ification of Ken Bone, but this nice little post-debate moment he had with Bill Clinton needs to be preserved in amber.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:24 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Now that Russia is oppressive and terrible and run by homophobic, woman-hating, racist super-wealthy new money who provide zero benefits to ordinary people in terms of health care, education, etc , many Americans seem eager to leap onboard.

Well, Putin's a guy.
posted by Mooski at 11:25 AM on October 10, 2016


Trump's pledge to jail Clinton - which Pence just defended today - was literally one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon

This is a feature, not a bug for Pence. The whiteboard in his mancave reads:

1. Get elected Veep
2. POTUS impeached
3. Profit!
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:26 AM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Is there, like, a video or something that would explain why everyone is so taken with Ken Bone? 'Cause I was reading here during the debate, and suddenly everybody just erupts with OMG red sweater guy is so awesome, but nobody's ever gotten around to explaining what's so awesome about him. Or is this some kind of ironic mockery?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


So you're saying Pence is Frank Underwood? I'm confused now.
posted by jferg at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not on board with the instant meme-ification of Ken Bone, but this nice little post-debate moment he had with Bill Clinton needs to be preserved in amber.

I think Bill acts like with absolutely every person he ever meets. He probably do the same thing if ran into you while picking up lunch at the local VeggieGrill.
posted by sideshow at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2016


Inspired by Trump's "pussy-grabbing" comment, actress Amber Tamblyn posted a horrific description of being sexually assaulted by an ex-boyfriend in like fashion. (Trigger warnings, fuuuuck you Trump)
posted by nicebookrack at 11:28 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm sort of over the whole Ken Bone fixation (or, to be honest, never quite started it), but for the sake of accuracy, The New York Times reported that @kenbone18 is his real account, the others are fake.

Thank goodness we have journalists out there to confirm these important facts.
posted by zachlipton at 11:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, but that's not a curable disease.

I think it is. The Republican Party is choosing to pander to that element instead of building a new conservative coalition not based on hate. It would take time and be painful, but so is surviving Trumpism. And eventually they're going to have to anyway because demographics have made/will make a white nationalist party unsustainable. In fact, they basically have as much time as it takes for Texas to go purple/red. At that point they are dead as a national party in their current form.
posted by chris24 at 11:29 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I guess last night provided a lot to take on board but I'm still amazed that Trump coming out as pro-Assad and pro-Russia, stating that Aleppo is a lost cause etc. hasn't made any headlines.
posted by Flashman at 11:30 AM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Is there, like, a video or something that would explain why everyone is so taken with Ken Bone?

I liked his unusually enthusiastic and well-informed question about energy policy. I strongly dislike and am dismayed by the fact that he was ever leaning toward Trump.

(In general, I preferred the sonorous James Carter, as far as town hall questions went.)
posted by sallybrown at 11:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, one to keep in mind about Mr.Bone: He got all the way to 29 days before the election and still didn't know if HRC or Trump would get his vote. Not sure why he has become "Cool" Twitter's new boyfriend.
posted by sideshow at 11:31 AM on October 10, 2016 [30 favorites]


I can't believe he thinks that this weaselly "non-un-endorsement un-endorsement" will make him immune to blowback or the tender mercies of Trump and his vicious supporters.

It won't. All it does is piss off both sides.
posted by corb at 11:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Regarding Trump's tax proposal, he made a big deal of the fact that he wants to close the carried interest tax loophole. This has great symbolic significance because of billionaire hedge fund managers getting a tax break, but in real terms it is just a rounding error with respect to balancing the budget. It is only of significance to a hundred or so billionaire hedge fund managers.

But here's the thing. Trump does not benefit from the carried interest loophole because he is a real estate developer, not a hedge fund manager. Closing the loophole doesn't affect Trump at all. Trump brags that he knows all the hedge fund guys, but he really doesn't socially. They are real billionaires who look down on Trump with contempt as a fraud. So Trump's obsession with closing their loophole is really about payback for their lack of respect for Trump. Closing the loophole doesn't affect Trump at all, but it hurts the hedge fund managers.

It's always about what is best for Trump and his petty grudges.
posted by JackFlash at 11:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Another powerful ad from Clinton about a Republican mother with an autistic son.

"My son max cannot live in Trump world"
posted by chris24 at 11:32 AM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


I like how the owner of the "Trump Truck" is wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with a photo of his truck.

Reminds me of that guy at basketball games with a giant sign of his own face.
posted by rokusan at 11:33 AM on October 10, 2016


“Apparently I’ve gained about 30 pounds,” he told CNN, “and when I went to get in my car the morning of the debate, I split the seat of my pants all the way open. So the red sweater is Plan B and I’m glad it worked out.”

oh my god the pants-splitting was real

I thought that was a mean twitter joke
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I can't believe he thinks that this weaselly "non-un-endorsement un-endorsement" will make him immune to blowback or the tender mercies of Trump and his vicious supporters. Let me know how that works out for you, Paul.

And literally seconds after I typed that, CNN started reporting that Trump has announced that he won't support Ryan in Ryan's upcoming primary. Psychic me.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think the Ken Bone thing boils down to the way the question was asked (WARNING MEME EXPLANATION FOLLOWS)

0. Its tense as hell. The debate is crazy. Everything is stressful.
1. Anderson Cooper says: "We have time for one more question, from Ken Bone."
2. (long pause. Everyone watching thinks... did he say, "Ken Bone?" is that someone I should know? It sounds like a rapper or something...)
3. cut to:
Older chubby mustache dude in a lit red sweater. He seems very chill. The chyron reads "Kenneth Bone", like the chyron on Diddy might read "Sean Combs". He asks a cogent question about energy sources.

That's it. Just an incongruously cool seeming though ostensibly nerdy guy with a name that makes him sound like a superhero or rapper or wrestler and is delightfully mellifluous. Tension released.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:33 AM on October 10, 2016 [54 favorites]


I'm still amazed that Trump coming out as pro-Assad and pro-Russia, stating that Aleppo is a lost cause etc. hasn't made any headlines.

Yup. Neither has Clinton's tossing of Turkey under the bus, which I still don't know whether to interpret as a telegraph of Obama's next step or a contradiction of it.

But all that real-world, actually-matters world-events stuff just doesn't have a place in our 24-hour identity-politics, social-issues, navel-gazing blitzkrieg of an election, I guess.

Maybe in December we can start talking about whether our foreign policy is what it should be.
posted by rokusan at 11:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


the first Clinton presidency

My children may get "the second Clinton presidency", but I will effing get both.
posted by tilde at 11:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


CNN Body Language Expert Todd Graham: "He was sniffing louder than any coke fiend I've ever known"

HOLY SHIT.

mfw
posted by Talez at 11:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


"Oh, I cherish my right to vote. I think it's one of the most precious things we have." —Ruby, 93 [new Clinton ad; link to tweet w/ video]
posted by melissasaurus at 11:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


The acknowledgement by SOME of the media that this is sexual assault, and the massive stampede away from Trump since the release of the tapes, has me thinking a lot about Arnold Schwarzenegger, former governor of California.

I wrote here on Mefi in 2013 about a conversation I had with a male relative about how Schwarzenegger's groping meant, to me, that he should have been in jail, not in office - and how my male relative just laughed.

Wikipedia notes that the allegations of sexual assault were published in the Los Angeles Times a few days before the election.

Schwarzenegger won the 2003 California election by over a million votes, and was re-elected in 2006.

California has had a groper-in-chief.

I'm actually kind of surprised and heartened to see that, ten years later, maybe a greater percentage of the population is unwilling to vote for a serial assaulter.

Sometimes it's hard to see positive change, but I think - as appallingly painful as this election has been - it may be showing us that we're making a little progress. I hope.
posted by kristi at 11:37 AM on October 10, 2016 [49 favorites]


@gilbertjasono:
TRUMP: It hasn’t been debunked
RADDATZ: It has.
TRUMP: She went over time.
RADDATZ: She didn’t
TRUMP: She has gills, Martha
RADDATZ: No
posted by bardophile at 11:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [49 favorites]


And literally seconds after I typed that, CNN started reporting that Trump has announced that he won't support Ryan in Ryan's upcoming primary. Psychic me.

WI had multiple primaries this year, but there won't be any more before the general.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption," which is what it is, a brand name for TV captions? It seems egregiously jargon-y.
posted by Miko at 11:38 AM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


His earnest, nervous smile in the photo I linked just cracks me up. He is just such a perfect archetype of a certain demographic. For example, judging from his hair, glasses, and mustache, I'm guessing he's ex-military, possibly Navy.

But yeah, anyone who is undecided is a total dope.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:39 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption," which is what it is, a brand name for TV captions? It seems egregiously jargon-y.

I somewhat agree, but when "caption" gets used, I expect it to mean a transcript of what the person or news anchor on television is saying, as opposed to 6 or 7 static words functioning as an intermittent headline.
posted by cashman at 11:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


BRING CHYRON HOME
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:41 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption,"

When we heard the word Chryon and we wanted to say it a lot. Do I need to register somewhere?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [46 favorites]


Sometimes it's hard to see positive change, but I think - as appallingly painful as this election has been - it may be showing us that we're making a little progress. I hope.

I sincerely hope so too, but I'm also worried we have a new generation right now that's hearing that joking around about sexual assault is perfectly acceptable locker room banter, which can only lead to at least some of those people deciding that it is acceptable to do it.
posted by zachlipton at 11:42 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fair enough, cashman. Disambiguating. It's also called a "title."
posted by Miko at 11:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kat Combs @itskatcombs

Trump writing a term paper:

Sources Cited:
1. You Know It
2. I know It
3. Everybody Knows It
6:34 PM - 9 Oct 2016
posted by Sophie1 at 11:43 AM on October 10, 2016 [30 favorites]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption," which is what it is, a brand name for TV captions? It seems egregiously jargon-y.

It's a brand name for the company that made some of the first machines to digitally superimpose text on screen, yes. Like Kleenex, Xerox, Coke, and Photoshop it has transcended it's brand name/trademark and become representative of the product itself in a universal sense. It's been a synonym for "caption" for at least 25-30 years. See also "lower third".

And to answer your first question, that'd be first year video production class.
posted by davros42 at 11:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


During Sunday's debate, Donald Trump once again said he doesn't know whether Russia is trying to hack the U.S. election, despite Friday's statement by the U.S. intelligence community pointing the finger at Putin -- and despite the fact that Trump was personally briefed on Russia's role in the hacks by U.S. officials.

A senior U.S. intelligence official assured NBC News that cybersecurity and the Russian government's attempts to interfere in the 2016 election have been briefed to, and discussed extensively with, both parties' candidates, surrogates and leadership, since mid-August. "To profess not to know at this point is willful misrepresentation," said the official. "The intelligence community has walked a very thin line in not taking sides, but both candidates have all the information they need to be crystal clear."
What a shocker, Trump lied about his security briefings!
posted by yasaman at 11:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [90 favorites]



I like how the owner of the "Trump Truck" is wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with a photo of his truck.

Is there an image of him standing with the truck on the shirt, with an image of him and the truck on that shirt, like the Land O'Lakes butter box?
posted by tilde at 11:44 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Huh, I thought it was Chyron, not Chryon.
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 11:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Surely chryon is what small Australian children use to draw pictures.
posted by Grangousier at 11:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [54 favorites]


People just brought out a massive Trump-Putin flag

Maybe Putin could be persuaded to take the VP spot if Pence resigns. He could work his way up.

I can't believe he thinks that this weaselly "non-un-endorsement un-endorsement" will make him immune to blowback or the tender mercies of Trump and his vicious supporters.
I can't keep my phone charged due to the mass volume of texts from people all over the country who will #VoteTrump but⬇️ballot not so much.
— Katrina Pierson @KatrinaPierson
posted by octobersurprise at 11:47 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is there an image of him standing with the truck on the shirt, with an image of him and the truck on that shirt, like the Land O'Lakes butter box?

I once saw a red pickup truck with a mural on the tailgate, of Jesus waving to a red pickup truck driving off into the distance... and yes, the pickup truck on the pickup truck also had Jesus waving to a red pickup truck painted on its tailgate.
posted by Foosnark at 11:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Chryon is also more specific than caption, as it indicates specifically extra text put up on the screen by the TV channel, while caption can include closed captioning.
posted by tavella at 11:48 AM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's it. Just an incongruously cool seeming though ostensibly nerdy guy with a name that makes him sound like a superhero or rapper or wrestler and is delightfully mellifluous. Tension released.

Also, for me anyway, the uncanny resemblance to Mr. Belvedere, cardigan and all.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:50 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption," which is what it is, a brand name for TV captions? It seems egregiously jargon-y.

Well, everyone knows about the spelling in "burying the lede" by now, so it was time to move on.
posted by thelonius at 11:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Huh, I thought it was Chyron, not Chryon

Correct.
posted by schoolgirl report at 11:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's definitely spelled "chyron".
posted by Small Dollar at 11:51 AM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


My understanding of the distinction between "caption" and "Chyron" is that a caption somehow relates to the image or people talking on the screen... it's either their actual speech in text form, or directly related to it. Conversely, a Chyron is a kind of caption that contains information that can be only tangentially or not at all related to what's happening on screen. Like, two talking heads are discussing a football game and the Chyron is showing baseball scores. Yeah, both talking about sports but otherwise not really connected topically.

But I've got no evidence that this distinction is widely shared by any other English speakers. It could just be what you call any old text on the bottom of the screen.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


One of the most egregious statements last night was "Maybe there is no hacking." Does Trump...think Podesta sent his own emails to WikiLeaks? Or perhaps he thinks Podesta hired a skywriter to write his Gmail password in the air over Washington DC? Debating attribution and motive is one thing, but the whole "hacking? what hacking?" ploy is straight out of Putin's playbook.
posted by zachlipton at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Chryon is also more specific than caption, as it indicates specifically extra text put up on the screen by the TV channel, while caption can include closed captioning.

Yeah, that's what cashman said. "Title" works just as well for that, but it's probably also ambiguous. I'm somewhat swayed that it's more clear to use Chryon, but it still has the ring of people trying to sound like they're in the biz.
posted by Miko at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I like how the owner of the "Trump Truck" is wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with a photo of his truck.

Reminds me of that guy at basketball games with a giant sign of his own face.

He reminds me more of a Superfan (e.g. 1 2 3 4 5 ), who uses the attention drawn to a particular sporting event to try to build a personal brand. For Trump truck guy, I don't think he's for Trump as much as he is for using Trump for his own gain.
posted by miguelcervantes at 11:52 AM on October 10, 2016


this chyron stuff is great let's keep it going

somebody leaked a transcript of unaired The Apprentice footage:

“You’re obviously not a skin man,” Trump said. He later reiterated the point, pounded the table and said, “which is okay.” He added, “I wish I wasn’t.”

Includes quality smack talk from Cyndi Lauper
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


WI had multiple primaries this year, but there won't be any more before the general.

Oh good lord, sorry. I overheard that on a colleague's computer and thought it was live, but it was some autoplay video from August. Time for an election break.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


First Apprentice tape leak is out: to a transcript in which human orange-peel Trump critiques a female contestant's skin: a great sampling of sexism and homophobia for those in the mood to make themselves sick.
posted by sallybrown at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ohio Sen. Rob Portman revokes support for Donald Trump

Are any top Ohio Republicans supporting Trump now?
-- Jack Torry & Darrel Rowland, Columbus DISS-patch
Ohio Republican Party Chairman Matt Borges said he understands it if members of his party can no longer support Trump, and it won’t be held against them.

“I don’t believe it’s the party’s role to punish anyone for following their conscience,” he said.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump Jr. canceled an appearance Saturday at an Ohio State. He was set to visit several tailgates throughout campus with Tomi Lahren, host of “Tomi” on TheBlaze, prior to an OSU football game against Indiana, reported The Lantern, an OSU newspaper.

The fallout extended even to Ohio’s state legislative races, where Democrats called on Republicans to denounce Trump.

Silence was the response.
What Ohio politicians are saying about Donald Trump
-- Michelle Everhart & Jessica Wehrman, Columbus DISS-patch
Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio: "I can no longer support him.. . . I will be voting for Mike Pence for President."

Ohio Gov. John Kasich: "Nothing that has happened in the last 48 hours is surprising to me or many others. . . . Donald Trump is a man I cannot and should not support. . . . I will not vote for a nominee who has behaved in a manner that reflects so poorly on our country. Our country deserves better."

Attorney General Mike DeWine: " . . . while it is appropriate that he has apologized, [Trump] must demonstrate the sincerity of his apology through his actions moving forward."

State Auditor Dave Yost: "Mr. Trump must do the only thing remaining in his power to defeat Hillary Clinton: withdraw from the race."

U.S. Rep. Pat Tiberi, R-Genoa Township: "Americans deserve better choices . . . Trump should consider stepping aside.”
Note: I've omitted all the mealy mouthed statements that don't actually revoke support or call for any action. I've also omitted needling by their Dem colleagues. Note too,none of these include reactions to Sunday night's event.

But then:

Ohio moving in favor of Clinton as she speaks at an Ohio State
-- Darrel Rowland, Columbus DISS-patch
Hillary Clinton returns to Ohio today amid a historic upheaval in the presidential campaign.

But the state already apparently was already headed her way already. A CBS News/YouGov poll -- taken before the release of an explosive Donald Trump video Friday -- showed her with a 4-point lead in Ohio. That followed another survey last week giving the Democratic nominee a 2-point margin, after a month's worth of polls showed Trump winning the crucial Buckeye State.

Today, Ohio was moved to "leans Democrat" from "leans Republican" by the much-watched Crystal Ball, run by the University of Virginia's Center for Politics. And fivethirtyeight.com now gives Clinton about a 60 percent chance of winning the state -- the reverse of just two weeks ago.
posted by Herodios at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


@bennie2128
RCP national polls averages (comparison):
10/11/2012 - Obama +1.5
10/11/2016 - Clinton +5.9
posted by chris24 at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Are we really poking goodnatured fun at Ken Bone for being "ostensibly nerdy," yet going 25 rounds on the usage of Chyron?
posted by zachlipton at 11:53 AM on October 10, 2016 [123 favorites]


When we heard the word Chryon and we wanted to say it a lot. Do I need to register somewhere?

The queue to register for registration questions is over there. You'll need to sign in first.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I posted to facebook, asking I've read a lot of articles in respected publications detailing why I should not vote for Trump and why I should vote for Clinton. Has anybody got a good article that supports Trump? Seriously
Nuthin. There is no reasoned choice for Trump. I have a hard time accepting that so many people are voting their emotions and choosing such bigotry.

There was a prominent evangelical, Wayne Grudem, who endorsed Donald Trump this summer, basically all because of the Supreme Court, and even that guy just withdrew his support. The previous piece isn't even online any more, he pulled it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:55 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sounds legit, can I pay fees in bitcoins?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


“You’re obviously not a skin man,” Trump said. He later reiterated the point, pounded the table and said, “which is okay.” He added, “I wish I wasn’t.”

That's some Silence of the Lambs level squick there.
posted by bibliowench at 11:56 AM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


I've always referred to text on the lower third of the TV screen as a ticker.
posted by monospace at 11:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Sounds legit, can I pay fees in bitcoins?

Sure, but you'll need to register for alternate currency usage. Line's over there, behind the giant pulsating Möbius strip.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


i just previewed and deleted like 8 comments just shrieking TITTY SUIT BASEMENT WELL LOTION SKIN OH MY GOD
posted by poffin boffin at 11:57 AM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Buried in that Apprentice article is this little tidbit, which is news to me: "The former reality TV star has said he would consider requiring high-level federal employees to sign NDAs if he is elected president."

That has to be illegal, no? You can't possibly impose the kind of privately contracted restrictions on employment in the federal government that you can in your personal business enterprise?
posted by sallybrown at 11:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


As others have pointed out, it is actually Chyron, (not Chryon), which is definitely not as fun to say.
posted by Miko at 11:58 AM on October 10, 2016


The bit at the very end of the HuffPo link (Trump as "skin man") is most chilling:

The former reality TV star has said he would consider requiring high-level federal employees to sign NDAs if he is elected president.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump, Equal Opportunity Groper

Trump here getting grabby up-close-and-personal with his best pal, Bill Clinton.
[I sift the click-bait slideshows so you don't have to.]
 
posted by Herodios at 12:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


But Hillary is the secretive one! #bothsidesdoit
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sigh. I miss my life from ten minutes ago when the term "skin man" fondly recalled a jovial X-Files episode where it was a college nickname for Walter Skinner.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 12:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


From the tweet that mattdidthat linked to:

"Mark Hoffman, 47, of Columbus drives the Official Trump Truck. It comes with a "protester plow" on the front."

Once again, life imitates The Simpsons.
posted by FJT at 12:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


A balm for the soul: Aleatha, Janelle, Roxie, James (Facebook), Ruline, and Shane.
posted by Deoridhe at 12:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]



"the Official Trump Truck . . . comes with a "protester plow" on the front."

Soylent Green is VOTERS! It's made out of voters!
 
posted by Herodios at 12:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Then they fall into a basket of deplorables and all hang out together and normalize each other's behaviours.
"I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,'' Trump booms from a speakerphone. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it -- Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

No doubt.

I'm not certain that Trump actually joined Jeffrey Epstein in raping children, but it seems clear that he at the very least heard "locker room talk" alluding to it and didn't do shit to discourage it.
posted by roystgnr at 12:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump supporter was shocked that Hillary was a lawyer, thought she had been a stay-at-home mom. The mis/low-information out there is just ridiculous.

See also: People who think the only job Obama ever had was "community organizer." I have tried to explain to several of these morons that not only is he a teaching professor of constitutional law, the very idea that a major party would take someone who had never done anything but low-level community organizing and put them in reach of the Presidency is patently ridiculous. It's like arguing with a brick.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump writing a term paper:

Sources Cited:
1. You Know It
2. I know It
3. Everybody Knows It



So on top of everything else, he cribs from Bob Dole?
 
posted by Herodios at 12:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Huh... Trump really is Dennis Reynolds.
posted by codacorolla at 12:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


the very idea that a major party would take someone who had never done anything but low-level community organizing and put them in reach of the Presidency is patently ridiculous.

And yet.
posted by Mooski at 12:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [44 favorites]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption,"

All the internet cool kids always use inside-baseball terminology for media-related details.
posted by aught at 12:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Warren Buffet responds

Fucking burn. I KNEW the second Trump started bringing up that obviously pre-scripted set piece for his taxes, that his team would have been too stupid to check it out beforehand, or even think about how Buffett would respond. I said it out loud.
posted by ctmf at 12:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have tried to explain to several of these morons that not only is he a teaching professor of constitutional law, the very idea that a major party would take someone who had never done anything but low-level community organizing and put them in reach of the Presidency is patently ridiculous.

Presidency, no. Now, a GOVERNOR, that's different. You can be a two-bit actor, a beauty pageant contestant, a baseball executive or a bodybuilder and be ready for THAT.
posted by delfin at 12:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


And the Samson option of Trump telling his supporters to not vote down-ballot begins:

@KatrinaPierson
"I can't keep my phone charged due to the mass volume of texts from people all over the country who will #VoteTrump but⬇️ballot not so much."
posted by chris24 at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Huh... Trump really is Dennis Reynolds.

There's no doubt in my mind that Trump thinks of himself as a Golden God.
posted by joedan at 12:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


And the Samson option of Trump telling his supporters to not vote down-ballot begins:

I think this isn't really going to work as well as he thinks it will. Like, Trump supporters might be turned off from voting for someone who disendorsed, but they're going to look at, like, their city council guy, and be like "well, he's not who Trump is talking about". I would be that applies all the way up to representatives.
posted by corb at 12:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


And the Samson option of Trump telling his supporters to not vote down-ballot begins

I think I speak for most of us when I say.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's in a place called Ambridge, which will remind British people of another gaslighting abuser.
posted by holgate at 12:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


So if Trump loyalists refuse to vote for downballot Republicans, then the Democrats can celebrate on Nov 9th, start campaigning for 2018 on Nov 10th, and work like the devil to pass progressive policy in the first two years, right?
posted by bardophile at 12:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Married men voting Trump - 49%
Married women who think their spouse is voting Trump - 41%

My mother, as a matter of principle, would never tell anyone who she voted for. "We have a secret ballot in this country for a reason," she would say. I always wondered if it was to avoid marital discord if and when she voted less conservatively than my father.
posted by not that girl at 12:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Once again, life imitates The Simpsons.

I just got the Disgruntled Office Seeker protestor placard joke.
posted by zamboni at 12:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Skin man" is just truly revolting except in the context of fried chicken. And I wouldn't trust Trump's fried chicken bona fides either.

This may explain why he says Heidi Klum isn't a 10, though. (To save you a click, it's Klum's rad Halloween costume of a person with no skin).
posted by knuckle tattoos at 12:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump supporters might be turned off from voting for someone who disendorsed, but they're going to look at, like, their city council guy, and be like "well, he's not who Trump is talking about".

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that the people so thoroughly in the tank for Trump know nothing about any of the other issues or races on the ballot beyond Trump.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 12:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I can't keep my phone charged due to the mass volume of texts from people all over the country who will #VoteTrump but⬇️ballot not so much."

Okay, so I admit I am a semi-recluse who doesn't get many texts, but does this even make any sense? Does receiving texts really drain the battery that much more than simply having the messaging app running? And why would they be texting her phone personally instead of tweeting her public Twitter profile? Does she put her phone number on fund raising emails or something?
posted by aught at 12:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


...you make a fair point, C'est in DC. Because if they understood there were other levels of government, they might realize Trump can't save them all by himself.
posted by corb at 12:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Josh Marshall, TPM: I told a colleague this morning that I had a hard time remembering another time in 16 years of running TPM where I had such difficulty keeping up with so many different, critical threads of news. ... But it's in the Democrats' power now to break Republican candidates one by one if they choose and act wisely.

This is like Trump's Procrustean bed, to go with Trump's Razor and Trump's Mirror.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think I've lost the ability to drop stuff this weekend. Trump has said and done so many reprehensible things this past week. I'd been letting a lot if then slide off for my own sanity but starting with the Bush tape, he's done and said like nine impossibly awful things (often before breakfast in my time zone) and all of them are sticking in my craw. I'm flipping between despondent and furious. I've put in a call to my therapist. I know I should look away, but this is too important. But I don't know what it would take for me to feel better - a Clinton blow out doesn't change the fact that Trump was a major party's nominee for president. I've completely lost faith that democracy is a long term viable method governing. Ugh I'm so filled with hate for Trump and his campaign right now and I can't flush it. This is not healthy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Does that make Chris Christie 'the mantis' swooping in for thirds?
posted by ian1977 at 12:29 PM on October 10, 2016


Does receiving texts really drain the battery that much more than simply having the messaging app running?

It's a middle finger to the Republican Party and a big hint to Trumpsters, not a real complaint.
posted by chris24 at 12:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Does receiving texts really drain the battery that much more than simply having the messaging app running?

Arthur: Late? What for?
Slartibartfast: What is your name, human?
Arthur: Dent. Arthur Dent.
Slartibartfast: Late as in the late Dentarthurdent. It's a sort of threat, you see. I've never been terribly good at them myself but I'm told they can be terribly effective.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


That Foreign Policy article does make it sound like a particularly clever attempt at regime change
posted by infini at 12:31 PM on October 10, 2016


Forgive me for posting while way behind on reading, but I think this article on Vox talking about Trump's dangerously wrong understanding of Syria is important and needs to be shared.

I found it helpful after reading that to watch this five minute history of the Syrian civil war video, again, to remember how we got here. It was produced a year ago and doesn't talk about the current situation, the refugee crisis and the bombardment of Aleppo, but if you watch this video, you will understand at least one hundred times more about what's going on in Syria than Donald Trump does.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


This is like Trump's Procrustean bed, to go with Trump's Razor and Trump's Mirror.

Should probably start calling them 'Donald's Procrustean Bed', 'Donald's Razor', 'Donald's Mirror", to avoid reinforcing DJT's brand.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


When did we all start saying "Chryon" instead of "caption,"

Um... Forever? But I'm the olds, and was using that shit for cable access production at our high school in the early 80's...
posted by mikelieman at 12:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Buried in that Apprentice article is this little tidbit, which is news to me: "The former reality TV star has said he would consider requiring high-level federal employees to sign NDAs if he is elected president."

That has to be illegal, no? You can't possibly impose the kind of privately contracted restrictions on employment in the federal government that you can in your personal business enterprise?

No, he could not. You've got the Freedom of Information Act on one hand, and classified documentation for state secrets on the other. As a public servant, all your records (except those deemed classified, secret, or top secret) are there for the public to request.

Hilarious that he's accusing Hillary of being secretive and criminal on one hand, while contemplating bullshit NDAs on the other. Wait, not hilarious, idiotic.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:35 PM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


@KatrinaPierson
"I can't keep my phone charged due to the mass volume of texts from people all over the country who will #VoteTrump but⬇️ballot not so much."

If they want to give Hillary Clinton a present of the House and Senate, that's OK by me.
posted by mikelieman at 12:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Pro-Trump protestors in front of the RNC in DC

One sign: "Better to grab a pussy than to be one"

I've been trying (occasionally failing) not to paint people with a broad brush this election but things like this make it so much harder.
posted by Talez at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [72 favorites]


Back during 911, when the networks first rolled it out, the Chyron was called "the crawl" and seems to me like it has been that ever since up until about nine election threads ago.
posted by notyou at 12:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Now Trump is hawking some new conspiracy theory about CNN rigging the post-debate focus group because the moderator whispered the topic to one of the panel members as they cut to the group and it was picked up on her mic.

As far as I can tell, it was probably a situation where the woman on the panel had said something off the air, CNN ran the clip from the debate for context, and then the moderator was cuing her with what she had said previously as they cut back to the focus group. They don't air the entire focus group live, so telling a participant "say that thing you had about X" is part of the process.

Also, if you're whining about the post-debate focus group on cable news, you don't think you won the debate. Winners let their performance speak for itself.
posted by zachlipton at 12:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


> I've put in a call to my therapist. I know I should look away, but this is too important. But I don't know what it would take for me to feel better - a Clinton blow out doesn't change the fact that Trump was a major party's nominee for president. I've completely lost faith that democracy is a long term viable method of governing.

The game we play to elect leaders may not be a long term viable method of governing. This is no reason to lose faith in democracy, though.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've been trying (occasionally failing) not to paint people with a broad brush this election but things like this make it so much harder.

Try this
posted by thelonius at 12:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think I've lost the ability to drop stuff this weekend...

I feel for you, Joey. I've been there a lot. Breathe, sleep, exercise, sunshine. B-12 supplements can't hurt. And yeah. Call your therapist. I'm rooting for you. There is more to life.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hilarious that he's accusing Hillary of being secretive and criminal on one hand, while contemplating bullshit NDAs on the other. Wait, not hilarious, idiotic.

Why is this not a debate question though? We've had several debates that all ask the exact same email question, as though the limited time is best spent asking and answering the same damn thing, but nobody has ever followed up with: "Mr. Trump. You have said that, if elected, you would make members of your administration sign non-disclosure agreements. How can you attack Secretary Clinton for not releasing her personal, non-governmental documents when you plan to forbid government employees from telling the American people who pay their salaries about their own government?"
posted by zachlipton at 12:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


I'm re watching the Voyager episode S3E11 The Q and the Grey and I have to say Trump and better understanding of rape culture makes this episode pretty horrifying though he does go away when asked. Mostly.

"Let me guess. (You want to mate with me because) No one else in the universe will have you? .... Sorry, I'm busy for the next 60 to 70 years."- Captain Janeway.
posted by tilde at 12:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Trump Truck Giveaway Official Terms and Conditions

NO PURCHASE NECESSARY TO ENTER OR WIN THIS GIVEAWAY. A PURCHASE OR CONTRIBUTION WILL NOT IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. THE TRUMP TRUCK GIVEAWAY (“GIVEAWAY”) BEGINS AT 9:00 AM EASTERN TIME (“ET”) ON 07/15/16 and ENDS AT 11:59 PM ET ON 10/31/16. ELIGIBILITY: Open only to legal residents of the United States and Washington, D.C., age 21 years or older at time of entry who are licensed drivers. Subject to all applicable federal and state and local laws and regulations. Void where prohibited by law. Governed by U.S. law. Employees and their immediate families (parents, children, spouse, siblings) of Liberty Alliance, LLC (“the Sponsor”) and their respective advertising and promotion agencies, parent companies, affiliates, retailers, subsidiaries, sales representatives and/or distributors, and their immediate families, and those living in the same household (whether related or not) are not eligible to enter.
...
This contest is in no way an attempt to influence a federal, state, municipal or other government election and is not an endorsement of any candidate for any federal, state, municipal, or other government office.

I would be so happy if a mefite won the Trump Truck.
posted by theora55 at 12:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


40 minutes in and the Ambridge PA Trump event is only just starting with Jeff Sessions.
posted by Talez at 12:43 PM on October 10, 2016


Wait but why: a recap of the second debate

"Anderson: Okay, but do you assault women?

Trump: Nobody has more respect for women than I do. Nobody. Not Mister Rogers. Not Susan B. Anthony. No one. Moving on a married woman is a sign of respect, something Mister Rogers and Susan B. Anthony never did. I’m what every parent hopes their daughter marries. All women respect me."
posted by Tarumba at 12:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Caroline Siede: So Hillary bringing up Spielberg's Lincoln may have sounded silly, but that's *literally* what she was talking about in the speech.

(Provides the context for the "private/public" comments from HRC's leaked speech, which illustrates just how flailing was Trump's attempt to use this as some sort of 'gotcha' against her.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Jeff Sessions: "Trump was firm and crisp"

Like a nice leg of pork.
posted by Talez at 12:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pope Guilty: I am so pleased that -mentum has been so enduring a concept.

Seems like now that it's gotten going it's difficult to stop.
posted by ctmf at 12:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [73 favorites]


Booing any sort of common market for the Western hemisphere.
posted by Talez at 12:45 PM on October 10, 2016


Billy Bush Is Reportedly Very Unlikely to Ever Return to Today

"Billy Bush was suspended by NBC on Sunday for his role in the 2005 Access Hollywood tape that features Donald Trump making lewd comments about women, and now Bush's eventual return to his gig as a host on Today appears to be unlikely. CNN Money reports that multiple sources are suggesting Bush's suspension will prove permanent, with one source saying, "He will never be on the show again."

Good.
posted by chris24 at 12:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [48 favorites]


Apparently, so far, according to Jeff Sessions:
"Believing in open borders disqualifies her from being President"

But throwing your opponent into prison? Go forth and multiply!
posted by Talez at 12:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN Money reports that multiple sources are suggesting Bush's suspension will prove permanent, with one source saying, "He will never be on the show again."

One down, ladies; [number of Trump enablers remaining] left to go.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Nobody has more respect for women than I do. Nobody. Not Mister Rogers. Not Susan B. Anthony. No one.

Yeah, probably a good thing I wasn't in the audience for that one; "YOU SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH ABOUT MISTER ROGERS" would probably have reflected poorly on my voting bloc.
posted by Mooski at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Find Competitive Congressional Districts Near You
posted by Jpfed at 10:15 AM on October 10

Thank you for posting this! Just made a donation to the Dem candidate in my district.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's ramped up a bit. it's a bit like a traveling Klan Rally combined with a Minstrel Show.
posted by Talez at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2016


Reporting from today's Trump rally in Ambridge, PA (about twenty miles NW of Pittsburgh). The Trump Truck is worth the click.

A truck to run over protestors and kids chanting "Les-bi-an" (presumably re HRC). Best of America.

I was thinking of going to HRC rally in Detroit today, but got a late start, probably too late to get in, so cancelled. I do hope to see the 1st woman and one of most qualified ever Presidents in person sometime.
posted by NorthernLite at 12:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


At Trump's event, "Sessions now condemns "the international Washingtonian establishment" (twitter)

Is this anti-semitic code-speak or just nonsense talk?
posted by sallybrown at 12:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ghouliani: Trump "had the best performance any presidential candidate had in the history of debates".

Can I get some of what he's smoking?
posted by Talez at 12:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Over in the UK, the bookmakers are still quoting Hillary at very short odds, while Donald is fluctuating between 3/1 and 4/1. Seven of the bookmakers are also now offering odds on Evan McMullin winning the presidential election (look, it's 2016; anything can happen, and it usually does).
posted by Wordshore at 12:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not going to link it, but Breitbart - so basically the Trump campaign - is pushing a conspiracy theory by Jerry Falwell Jr. that the tape release was masterminded by Paul Ryan to execute a coup against Trump. Really.

popcorn.gif
posted by chris24 at 12:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is this anti-semitic code-speak or just nonsense talk?

yes
posted by Bookhouse at 12:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


A federal judge called up Giuliani and said Clinton confessed to a federal crime in the debate.
posted by Talez at 12:53 PM on October 10, 2016


Let's hear it for Billy Bush, Trump's new press secretary.
posted by mochapickle at 12:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is just a fucking lynch mob in disguise. American democracy fucking weeps.
posted by Talez at 12:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, probably a good thing I wasn't in the audience for that one; "YOU SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH ABOUT MISTER ROGERS" would probably have reflected poorly on my voting bloc.

The Mister Rogers/Susan B. Anthony thing was not a real quote, by the way.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


A federal judge called up Giuliani and said Clinton confessed to a federal crime in the debate, lies Rudy Giuliani.
posted by sallybrown at 12:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


this is no reason to lose faith in democracy, though.

I think there is reason to maintain hope in democracy, but not faith. We seem to have forgotten what the country's founders knew, and wanted to safeguard against: That everything can be abused and turned into a monarchy, even democracy.

I mean, look how easily Trump hacked our democracy. He has no experience. He has no plans. His actual communication style is a combination of hulking threats and incomprehensible, whiny gibberish.

So how did he get this far. The media claims he is a master of manipulating them, but that's giving both him and themselves too much credit, because they are almost incomprehensibly easy to manipulate, as has been proven time and again. He's no great strategist. He's just the loudest man in the room, and the media has an uncontrollably urge to turn their cameras toward freakishness, violence, and noisy white men. He didn't have to do anything clever. He just had to be a brat and they did all his work for him.

And what else does he have? He cobbled together a series of online conspiracy theories like a script kiddie cobbles together a shitty virus. He doesn't even understand them. He doesn't try to prove them. He's so lazy that all he does is say "A lot of people say such and such" and "shame on you for such and such," and, when it is disproven, he just says it again. He puts no work into it. It can be the craziest thing possible and if it fits into a belligerent, spoiled worldview, he'll utter it. He's never even been tested -- it was abundantly clear in the last debate that he doesn't know Clinton's resume, he doesn't have any specific fact at hand, he's not even totally sure how a bill becomes a law.

And yet this walking expression of belligerent, incompetent privilege has only now, in the final months of the campaign, started to deflate, and it's mostly his own doing, because he really is so awful that it had to happen. Clinton has been very smart about her campaign, but she's mostly relied on his to hang himself, knowing eventually he would.

October is too fucking late in the game. It shouldn't be happening this far into the process. Where are the checks and the balances? Where is the self-correction of democracy? Because we almost elected a king, and not just any king. He's, I don't know, Caligula.
posted by maxsparber at 12:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [86 favorites]


"Her Wikileaks reveal she wants to be president of the world."

Well we're already well into fantasy land but hey why let that stop you.
posted by Talez at 12:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ghouliani: Trump "had the best performance any presidential candidate had in the history of debates".

I'm beginning to get the feeling that a lot of the big name Trump "supporters" are laughing their asses off playing Opposite Day.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ghouliani: Trump "had the best performance any presidential candidate had in the history of debates".

Lincoln? Beardo politically correct hippie. Jefferson? Adams? Blah-blah-blah make with the zingers, guys! Socrates? Fuck that guy.

Burr? OK, pretty close, but still...
posted by PlusDistance at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm so glad Trump is down by double digits right now because holy shit this is outright fascism now.
posted by Talez at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


Man, that Foreign Policy endorsement is just savage. In that, it's concise, factual, and pretty much 'yep' in a nutshell. I'm keeping that open in a tab to link people (mostly my family) who still want to "debate" about the "both sides" thing. That. Period.
posted by ctmf at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Is this anti-semitic code-speak or just nonsense talk?

It's definitely Rush-speak, so...

The bit I heard today was all "let those who haven't sinned cast the first stone." How the establishment elites (capital-Es, presumably) are groomed their whole lives for possible candidacies, so someone who's coming from outside can't possibly be expected not to have said/acted the way Trump does.
#listeningsoyoudonthaveto
posted by rp at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ghouliani: "You are good people. We love you. She hates you"

THIS IS LITERALLY FASCISM 101.
posted by Talez at 12:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [40 favorites]


The Mister Rogers quote was not real, by the way.

Ah. The dangers of using MeFi as a transcription service when I can't make myself watch the debates in person.

I could just hear the ignorant vacuum canister say it, though.
posted by Mooski at 12:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


we almost elected a king, and not just any king. He's, I don't know, Caligula

did we almost really?
posted by mrgrimm at 12:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm so glad Trump is down by double digits right now because holy shit this is outright fascism now.

He built his campaign from the start as though Umberto Eco's Fourteen Ways of Looking At A Blackshirt were a checklist.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


One sign: "Better to grab a pussy than to be one"

That has the foetid whiff of "Roger Stone stunt" about it.
posted by holgate at 12:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


and don't you think that his fascism (or whatever you want to call his stupidity) has hurt his campaign? it's not all bad here.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:59 PM on October 10, 2016


A federal judge called up Giuliani and said Clinton confessed to a federal crime in the debate, lies Rudy Giuliani.

sallybrown, I would LOVE to see Trump's sycophants quoted in print that way. "[Quote], lied Giuliani"
posted by ctmf at 1:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "We're gonna bring back steel"

YOU HELPED KILL IT YOU FUCK.
posted by Talez at 1:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Day 1: Jobs are coming back"
posted by Talez at 1:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sept. 25, in Richmond, CA, two white men got out of their truck to attack a Sikh man stopped at a traffic light. They pulled off his turban, cut his hair, punched his face.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump: Bitching about debate moderators.
posted by Talez at 1:03 PM on October 10, 2016


Ghouliani: "You are good people. We love you. She hates you"


Ah, yes. Nobody knows and admires the hearts and values of salt of the earth Western Pennsylvanians like lawyers and businessmen from New York City.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Bleaching emails is an incredibly expensive process"

What? Did Barron and his cyber tell you that?
posted by Talez at 1:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


Does receiving texts really drain the battery that much more than simply having the messaging app running?


Yep, I've seen it happen (photo scavenger hunt). The radio communication uses power, the ring/vibrate uses power, and if that's going almost continuously while you're plugged into a low amp charger, it can completely drain your battery.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "We're gonna bring back steel"

A small moment from the debate I enjoyed - when Clinton noted that Trump bought Chinese steel for his buildings, and Mr. Interruptitis didn't even deny it.
posted by sallybrown at 1:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


Lock her up just keeps on going. Special prosecutor. Fuck you Kellyanne Conway it was not a quip.

First sentence after the special prosecutor, "we're like a third world country".

Well yes but not in the way you think.
posted by Talez at 1:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


The emails are free. All you really need is some bleach.
posted by vbfg at 1:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I keep thinking of the people digging through old footage. I transcribe footage from news interviews and reality shows for a job, and the kind of stuff that would be really juicy is normally stuff that would not be transcribed. It'd be noted as something like (OFF-MIC CONVERSATION) and then just lost to the sands of time, as far as transcripts go. If there's icky stuff in a transcript, some annoyed transcriber at some point very likely included it to up the page count a little bit to counteract how grossed out they were. Especially if it was clear it was the kind of thing that would almost surely never be aired. Note to any of my employers that might see this: I don't do this, even when there's good temptation to do it. Seriously, I don't do it. For instance, the whole bus conversation would have been something I noted as off-mic, up until they get off the bus and introduce themselves.

There are differences from producer to producer: some want basically anything at all you can make out to be transcribed, but mostly it's only things that are relevant and could be aired in some universe. I'm not sure which route the Burnett's contracted transcription services take, but I think it's probably likely that someone was annoyed and decided to record his ugly stuff exactly as he said it. From what I can tell, the transcription business is heavily female, so this would not be a big surprise.

Anyway, don't be surprised if there aren't a lot of transcripts of the horrible thoughts of this trash guy. It's mostly the kind of thing we would be grossed out about and then get back to our actual job, like professionals.
posted by lauranesson at 1:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


Um, BleachBit costs $5.00 to download. It's open source.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


Um, BleachBit costs $5.00 to download. It's open source.

thatsthejoke.jpg
posted by Talez at 1:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump is going to win PA by 22 points. Mr Brexit.
posted by Talez at 1:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whelp, soren_lorensen just answered my question. I apologize if my phrasing was indelicate, but, Dayum!
posted by mikelieman at 1:08 PM on October 10, 2016


Oh, I realize that. Just once again howling into the abyss about this man's stupidity.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:09 PM on October 10, 2016


Charles Pierce: Donald Trump Is Without Parallel. This is your democracy, America. Cherish it.
Even for a guy who spent the first quarter of the encounter talking in fluent 4-chan, this was a startling bit of business, the first time in American political history that one candidate promised to throw the other candidate in jail. It should be the only thing anyone talks about until the next debate. No arrest. No indictment. No trial. No conviction. Just, "You'd be in jail." And he got enough of a cheer in the hall that Anderson Cooper screwed on his stern librarian face and told people to shut up. I'm telling you, for somewhere between 37 and 42 percent of your fellow Americans, the earth moved at that moment.
Let's Talk About Paul Ryan's Non-Unendorsement, And bask in this wondrous ecce homo moment.
It also means that Ryan still thinks there's enough energy in the dank regions of The Base to do him and his caucus real damage if he were to rescind formally his endorsement. His loyalty is purely toward his caucus, not toward the country. This was Paul Ryan's Ecce Homo moment. He did everything except ask for a basin in which to wash his hands. The essential gutlessness of the man always will shine through.
posted by homunculus at 1:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


"She's got hatred in her heart" again. "Thousands and thousands of people outside". "Where is the Fire Marshall?" "Where's our Fire Marshall? Let em come in!"
posted by Talez at 1:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


In a crowded field, Giuliani has really emerged as the shining star of grotesque opportunism and pathetic self-abasement among Trump hangers-on.

I take some pleasure in the fact that he's trading in whatever's left of his legacy as America's Mayor to be remembered as a contemptible fascist tool.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [32 favorites]


"Four walls, and a roof with nothing to burn. Let em in!"

Jesus Christ this is stupid.
posted by Talez at 1:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Comment removed. "I think I'll use rape figuratively now" is basically always a bad direction to take a comment in.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


>"had the best performance any presidential candidate had in the history of debates".
>"You are good people. We love you. She hates you"
>"We're gonna bring back steel"

Well, they've realized there's no point wasting your time and mental energy trying to be credible if your audience wants to be lied to.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Exposed by WIKILEAKS"

Literally shouts Wikileaks. Also calls it "Wikilinks". "Just trust me with it it's real bad stuff". "Disqualify her from seeking public office".
posted by Talez at 1:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


And he got enough of a cheer in the hall that Anderson Cooper screwed on his stern librarian face and told people to shut up.

One other thing let's remember about the debate: Trump's fans made some noise, but the biggest applause line of the night, by far, was Clinton dropping the "when they go low, we go high" quote.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


"The American Worker; You and me..."

So livid.
posted by Talez at 1:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Day 1: Jobs are coming back"

WHY DO YOU DISTURB MY ETERNAL REST, FOOLISH MORTAL?
DID YOU NOT SEE THE TAMPER RESISTANT PENTALOBE SCREWS ON MY TASTEFULLY SCULPTED ALUMINUM COFFIN? TAKE A HINT, BUDDY. THEN AGAIN, WHAT DO I EXPECT FROM SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND SINGULAR/PLURAL VERBS. BEGONE!
posted by zamboni at 1:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


In a crowded field, Giuliani has really emerged as the shining star of grotesque opportunism and pathetic self-abasement among Trump hangers-on.

He'e managed to eclipse Christie, which is saying something. (Though Christie has other fish to fry right now so maybe he's just not on top of his toadying game.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Just trust me with it it's real bad stuff".

I'm watching this with you and my jaw dropped. Despot much?
posted by mochapickle at 1:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


This was Paul Ryan's Ecce Homo moment.

You mean a botched, amateurish repair job?
posted by ckape at 1:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just had a text conversation with a friend I haven't heard from in a while. She just learned that some of her husband's relatives are voting for Trump, and is shocked, also because they don't fit the media-painted demographic: they are wealthy, educated folks in Connecticut. Since I've been pretty regularly discussing politics on Facebook, she wanted to know whether I had any advice for her on how to cope with this new knowledge.

Man. As I told her near the end of our conversation, this election feels like a massive national trauma, and we are all having to develop coping strategies and find our safe spaces within our social circles just to get through it.
posted by Superplin at 1:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


"HONEST ABE INKIN!"
posted by Talez at 1:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


He literally said Honest Abe Inkin.
posted by Talez at 1:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I want to believe that he really did mean it when he said Abe Lincoln never told a lie.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:15 PM on October 10, 2016


I just remembered Donald's weird tangent about there being Michelle Obama attack ads against Hillary Clinton and his warning her "She's not your friend." Axe says (twitter): "Just for record, there were no ads in which @MichelleObama attacked @HillaryClinton. I know. I was there."

I wanted to come back to this comment. This is another tactic from the abuser handbook: to try and isolate their target from friends and family, and to sever the target's ties to outside support and resources.
posted by erisfree at 1:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [98 favorites]


Hillary is going to kill Medicare and Social Security. He's going to save them. Complete fucking fantasy now.
posted by Talez at 1:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


A little comic relief, anyone? Watch Don & Hill perform "Time Of My Life" on Dutch satirical TV show "Lucky TV."
(Site is getting clobbered right now, be patient.)
posted by monospace at 1:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I take some pleasure in the fact that he's trading in whatever's left of his legacy as America's Mayor to be remembered as a contemptible fascist tool.

Giuliani's "legacy" as "America's Mayor" is as hollow as Trump's claim to be a brilliant businessman. There's a reason a lot of us called him "Il duce" back in the day.
posted by aught at 1:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Khyron?
posted by eustacescrubb at 1:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wall is back. Along with "Who's going to pay for the wall?"

Greatest hits time.
posted by Talez at 1:17 PM on October 10, 2016


Curiosity meaningless data-crunch thought: With all the mefites who have locations listed in profile, combine all of those voting precincts into one logical "state". How blue is the State of Mefi? I think we skew pretty urban, so probably "very blue" but we've heard many people report living in red land.
posted by ctmf at 1:17 PM on October 10, 2016


Trump apparently praised Ben Roethlisberger ("a friend of mine"), you know, the guy with a section on his Wikipedia page titled Sexual assault allegations. He sure surrounds himself with the best people.
posted by zachlipton at 1:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


From way back last night: This honestly seems like the obvious direction of any coming oppo dump, and I'm only surprised Cooper was so damned obvious about it. That whole line of questioning screamed TRAP.

Sure, but so did Clinton's bringing up Alicia Machado, and Trump couldn't let that one go for a week.
posted by Gelatin at 1:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump once fired ‘Apprentice’ contestant for ‘locker room’ comment
But six years ago, he booted a female contestant off “Celebrity Apprentice 3” for a “locker room” comment. Trump fired professional wrestler Maria Kanellis after she made a comment about contestant Curtis Stone and his bowel movements.

“Isn’t it sort of gross bringing that up? It’s like disgusting,” Trump said. “This is my board room. It’s not a locker room. Maria, you’re fired.”

Kanellis had accused Stone of being arrogant.

“You came in our dressing room and you took a crap and left the stench in the room,” she said. “So that is the whole purpose of why I was upset. It wasn’t your room. It wasn’t your place to go.”
posted by sallybrown at 1:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


"Lincoln spinning in his grave."
Well, yes. Very likely.
"NAFTA worst trade deal in the history of the world."
What about the slave trade? Surely there was a deal or two in there that ranks?
posted by Don Pepino at 1:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump: "No one who supports open borders should be able to run for president"
posted by Talez at 1:20 PM on October 10, 2016


I guess it's a good thing she doesn't?

Man, thanks for taking one for the team, Talez.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:21 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump: Sanders "made a deal with the devil". Devil again.

This is our democracy now.
posted by Talez at 1:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


wow this new Wikileaks dump is pretty damning [not really]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump again on steel being killed when he was buying cheap Chinese steel.
posted by Talez at 1:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


...Just imagine if Trump really is afflicted with a low borderline level of intelligence. This would mean that the entire Republican Party has nominated as its candidate someone with an intellectual disability.

Prominent members of the Republican Party are busy genuflecting to this intellectually inferior person, such as Chris Christie, Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, Reince Priebus and Mike Pence. And the Republican leadership has been modifying the entire Party’s positions on substantive issues to conform to the ideas of someone who is intellectually impaired

And pundits and commentators have been utterly wrong. So many of them have proclaimed Trump as a genius at this or that, such as at appealing to the middle class, outmaneuvering his political opponents, or manipulating the entire media industry to dominate coverage.

As it turns out, however, Trump is not any sort of a genius at all. He merely says what his fourth-grade mind actually believes. That’s all it is. That is the extent of his complexity. If a fourth-grader proposed such ideas, like building a wall or banning all Muslims, these ideas would quickly be dismissed as far too simplistic. But when Trump says them, the media sensationalizes every word.

This is hardly Trump masterfully controlling the media, but rather, this is the media foolishly mistaking Trump for a mastermind and utterly failing to appreciate that this is no more than a person who is mentally underdeveloped.

The entire spectacle is quite comical. But it is also very serious.

It is no stunt — this intellectually stunted man is one step away from becoming our president
Stupid and contagious: What if Donald Trump is not “dumbing down” and actually is this dumb?
posted by y2karl at 1:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


"No one who supports open borders should be able to run for president"

Aaurgh. People aren't even saying that about you, Donald. We talk about things that disqualify you from becoming president, but we accept, with a grimace, that you have the right to run.
posted by bardophile at 1:24 PM on October 10, 2016


Clean coal, shale, oil, and natural gas. What's next? He's going to say how she supports fracking just to be extra stupid?
posted by Talez at 1:24 PM on October 10, 2016


The two easiest things to refute last night went unrefuted by Clinton, to my dismay: she does not want open borders, and vetting of refugees is already extreme.

I know that debate answers are measured and that it doesn't always work to quibble about minor details, but I can't understand how it would have lost her any ground to correct the record on both these things. I don't think I've heard any pushback on either idea in any of the debates so far.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd like to circle back to how much damage Trump could do to the Republican downballot races if he continues telling his base that the GOP betrayed them and the must pay for their disloyalty to Team Trump. Because I feel like a lot of them will do exactly as he tells them to do, which was terrifying to Democrats when he was neck-and-neck with Clinton in the polls, but now seems like it should be turning Republican blood ice cold when polls are showing her with a double-digit lead nationally and he's slamming Paul Ryan on Twitter.

Until this past weekend I have never taken seriously the idea that the Democrats could take back the House in 2016.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 1:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is really hard to keep up with. There's so much bullshit. As an import I shudder to think how a Trump administration would handle relations with every other country.
posted by Talez at 1:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clean coal, shale, oil, and natural gas.

We have both kinds of music! Country and Western!
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Prior to her naps" and she "let's killers back out on to the street".
posted by Talez at 1:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is hardly Trump masterfully controlling the media, but rather, this is the media foolishly mistaking Trump for a mastermind and utterly failing to appreciate that this is no more than a person who is mentally underdeveloped.

so I guess we'll be calling the movie Trumping There
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


(Also, as dismaying as this entire thing is, it is sort of refreshing to see the GOP institute a circular firing squad to rival anything the Dems have ever managed to bumble into.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [59 favorites]


Still on the "banging phones with a hammer" unaware that this is actually how you're supposed to dispose of devices with sensitive information.
posted by Talez at 1:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


but I can't understand how it would have lost her any ground to correct the record on both these things.

It wouldn't have cost her any ground, but it would've cost her time. She lost a lot of that in refuting as much of Trump's bullshit as she did. Clinton looked better when she answered direct questions from the mods and the audience; the back and forth with Trump didn't help much. She was stuck in a bad spot as she had to defend herself or everyone would talk about how she wouldn't or "couldn't," but even by defending herself she's stuck with the "both of them were bickering" false equivalency.

I saw things I wanted to hear her say, too, but in the end there just wasn't enough time. Particularly given how much air her opponent sucks up and wastes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Y2karl
I'm trying to very gracious in my response-
low borderline intelligence does not make someone intellectually inferior or inferior in any other way. Please do not conflate evil with disability...
posted by SyraCarol at 1:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


Oh god. This is a man completely incapable of learning, incapable of receiving and processing new information and adapting to it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Beaten up by the media for 72 hours, just words, locker room talk" then we're back to Bill Clinton sexually assaulting them, Hillary "assaulted her more savagely than Bill did".

"Brought four wonderful women to St Louis" and "very beautiful and very sad". "Trying to get their feelings out for so long but media wouldn't take it".

Quoting Juanita Broaddrick: "Hillary Clinton threatened me after Bill Clinton raped me".

Trump: "I'm exposing hypocrisy". "Bill Clinton is a sexual predator" "These things aren't written by the media".
posted by Talez at 1:30 PM on October 10, 2016


Still on the "banging phones with a hammer" unaware that this is actually how you're supposed to dispose of devices with sensitive information.

I thought Iron Mountain shredded them?
posted by mikelieman at 1:31 PM on October 10, 2016


Save the Day, Vote ad above was done by Joss Whedon.

I don't believe this. Nobody even died.
posted by rokusan at 1:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pinning all of Bill's philandering on Hillary, painting her as a hypocrite along with the media and "the politicians".

"Condemn my words and ignore the rephrensible actions of Hillary and Bill Clinton". "Greatest window into the character" "defending a man who raped a twelve year old little girl" "Blamed the victim". "Hillary ruined that little girl's life" "recorded laughing about it"

[N.B] Prosecution screwed up, client pleaded guilty, laughed about the accuracy of polygraphs not the case.
posted by Talez at 1:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


>> this is no reason to lose faith in democracy, though.

> I think there is reason to maintain hope in democracy, but not faith.
> We seem to have forgotten what the country's founders knew, and
> wanted to safeguard against: That everything can be abused and
> turned into a monarchy, even democracy.

Yeah, democracy is actually sort of the problem here. One of the first things the GOP is going to do is add boatloads of superdelegates -- an explicitly counter-democratic mechanism -- so that they can stop Trump from happening again. There are many systemic problems in politics, but Trump winning the GOP nomination is in the "feature, not bug" category. People voted for him in the primaries, and lots of people still want to vote for him in the general.

Of course these anti-democratic mechanisms aren't defensible on ethical / moral grounds, and most people who want them to exist acknowledge that they're subject to abuse just like the democratic process is. The only legitimate way to address this without abandoning everything that makes us Americans is to make it so that a candidate like Trump isn't appealing to this many people.

I don't have any particular recipe for that other than my belief that most of the Democratic platform will lead to less of the suffering that causes people to latch onto fascists like Trump, and the other side thinks their prescription is the correct one, so I tend to sort of punt the question to procedural changes like voting system reform, increasing third-party participation at the grassroots levels, moving to a unicameral legislature so that the right people are blamed when things are going wrong instead of just blaming "gridlock", etc. None of these are very satisfying to put on a bumper sticker, though.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Now going after Ted Kennedy for Chappaquiddick because DEMOCRAT.
posted by Talez at 1:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Where is the self-correction of democracy? Because we almost elected a king, and not just any king. He's, I don't know, Caligula.

So, look: I know my views on this are probably very different from everyone here, but from my viewpoint, this kind of thing is exactly why people like me really like the secular religion of America - why we like civics education that talks about how great America is, rah rah American Exceptionalism, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Because, yes. It's nationalism. It leaves out a lot of inconvenient details and the bad stuff America has done on the way up. But if your base national myth is 'We set ourself free of kings, and made a society where everyone can rise" - like, if that's the first thing you think of when you think of America, the Founding Fathers and the Revolutionary War and so on and so forth - if you think it's your civic duty to vote and be informed and so on and so forth - then democracy is healthily resistant to that sort of thing, because you know in your deepest of hearts it's unAmerican, and to be unAmerican is the worst thing you can possibly be. When you're raised on heroes who fought the good fight to Make America For Real Awesome, then when some tinpot dictator comes along, it's easy to stand up and say "not on my watch."

And I know that on the surface, it's easy to say "well hey corb, then how come the party that waves the flag the highest is the one that's deteriorating into the dumpster fire of god-emperor Trump?". But a lot of the people who are cheering for god-emperor Trump are the people that, let's face it, do not have a very good civics education. If they did, they would understand that his promises are unAmerican and impossible. We've taken, for the most part, that kind of "rah rah America now here's the nerdery about it" out of the schools for a variety of reasons - like, I'm not saying it's a Liberal Conspiracy, some of those reasons are like, standardized testing is the new God, and some of the reasons are 'schools are underfunded' - and that hits red states as well as blue states. That means that in some cases, you have the hollow shell of patriotism, but you don't have the deep understanding and love of country underneath it - like, wonkery love!

Because the self-correction of democracy is in the education of the demos, because rule of the uneducated will always be vulnerable to this kind of trumpery.
posted by corb at 1:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [102 favorites]


Trump "accepts the mantle of responsibility", "will never stop fighting for you".
posted by Talez at 1:33 PM on October 10, 2016


Went unrefuted by Clinton, to my dismay: she does not want open borders...

It's tough to walk back a pretty direct quote. I mean, she dreams of it but doesn't want it?

I can imagine the clarification, but that level of parsing isn't going to win her any fans. Nuance never, ever works in our politics.
posted by rokusan at 1:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Now going after Lynch/Clinton tarmac conversation.
posted by Talez at 1:34 PM on October 10, 2016


It's tough to walk back a pretty direct quote. I mean, she dreams of it but doesn't want it?

Wanting open borders and freedom of movement once it's feasible is a strong liberal value.
posted by Talez at 1:35 PM on October 10, 2016


Trump: "We are like in a third world country right now"
posted by Talez at 1:35 PM on October 10, 2016


I know that debate answers are measured and that it doesn't always work to quibble about minor details, but I can't understand how it would have lost her any ground to correct the record on both these things. I don't think I've heard any pushback on either idea in any of the debates so far.

I think she just sort of whiffed a few times. She's a polished politician, but she doesn't bat 1.000. Also, I think sometimes her instincts toward centrist positions aren't all that helpful, like when she seemed to flirt with the #MuslimsReportStuff nonsense after Trump gave her a perfect opportunity to go in the other direction.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is really hard to keep up with. There's so much bullshit.

Doesn't matter. He's going round PA, a state where Clinton is probably 10 points up, and talking to cheering fucknuts while the Philly burbs go bluer and bluer.

(He's in one of his high-on-his-own-uppers-supply phases. Tonight's probably a good time for an oppo droppo.)

What matters is that he's also these fucknuts to lurk around the polling places where Those People vote. Most of the fucknuts won't do it, but some will.
posted by holgate at 1:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am really tired of the media parroting the line about 'Four Women Bill Clinton Assaulted': Kathy Shelton had nothing (nothing!) to do with Bill. It's a very obvious fact that no one seems to have 'checked'.

Are the media still working on electing Bill Clinton? It's like ... did he win the nomination or something? Because he was all over the newspapers the next day ...

Yep, it's still all about the men.
posted by Dashy at 1:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump: "Always treated the blue collar worker, and I consider myself as a blue collar worker, with dignity and respect".

I know some small business owners that would disagree.
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Now going after Ted Kennedy for Chappaquiddick because DEMOCRAT.

If Trump was smart enough to know the phrase "rum, Romanism, and rebellion," he'd be stupid enough to use it.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "We just want a better future for our children"
posted by Talez at 1:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


There was a scene in Storm of Swords where Joffrey "Baratheon" is saying he's going to serve Robb Stark's head to his sister Sansa, at Joffrey's wedding feast, then he insults his grandfather and in general amps his Nasty Little Psychopath personality up to eleven. His normally in-control grandfather Tywin is rattled, and Tyrion thinks to himself that he's never seen Tywin so upset. This little shit is the future of House Lannister, King of the realm, and he's going to completely drag it all down with him.

I am very much reminded of the Lannisters at this moment when I read about the Republican establishment meltdown. "Joffrey" was in charge, and now the Lannisters, or the Republicans, are reaping what they've sown. As Charles Pierce put it, there are not enough roosts for all the chickens that are flying home.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


"Trump to PA voters: "Don't let anyone tell you you're doing well, cuz you're doing lousy!"" --@sarahmccammon

Prior to this election, I seriously underestimated the number of Americans who wanted to be constantly told how terrible things are, but directly encouraging them not to listen to anyone who may think that things are ok is a new one.
posted by zachlipton at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump "Taxes are going to be cut massively by me, Clinton will raise them".
posted by Talez at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2016


Clean Coal is great technology because all you have to do is pretend you're going to invent it someday and legislators are more than happy to pretend you already made it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [32 favorites]


What we really want to know is: What Would Jesus Grab?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think that Juanita Broaddrick deserves a fair assessment of her allegations, which would involve pressing charges and letting our imperfect judicial system sort it out from there. Assuming, of course, that the statute of limitations hasn't expired.

But even if I take her completely at her word, I don't see how Hillary is complicit in this, because the supposed threat involved Hillary shaking her hand and thanking her, and Broaddrick assuming that that was a loaded statement on her part, and therefore construing it as intimidating.

For Hillary to bear any culpability for intimidation she'd have had to know (a) who Broaddrick was (which is not certain); (b) that Bill had actually raped Broaddrick instead of having consensual sex (otherwise she'd just be passive-aggressively 'thanking' the Other Woman, which I think is about as measured a response as I could muster in that situation).
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


"Cut regulations"

Like safety, right?

"Companies coming back, new companies forming it's going to happen very quickly"

"I've always been a fighter. We're going to fight. Bring back our military, so depleted. Fight for veterans, so mistreated. Illegal immigrants are being taken care of much better than our veterans."
posted by Talez at 1:40 PM on October 10, 2016


Most of the fucknuts won't do it, but some will.

Yeah, they'd have to come into the city, which... Let me tell you the last time Trump did a public event in the city. I walked around outside the venue and there were so many terrified, confused-looking suburbanites walking around. (The venue was an urban college campus with neogothic and neoclassical architecture all around buuuuut also lots of black and brown students walking around, young women in hijab, etc.... so definitely a whole new world for some of these folks.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't really know how we, as a country, can walk back from the amount of lying Trump has done to something resembling adults talking to each other in future campaigns. How does that even happen anymore? When there is near zero accountability for straight-up bullshit, how do we begin to crawl out of this hole?
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


When there is near zero accountability for straight-up bullshit, how do we begin to crawl out of this hole?

We fight like hell every election and hope like hell the consequences of failing aren't too great.
posted by Talez at 1:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Trump to PA voters: "Don't let anyone tell you you're doing well, cuz you're doing lousy!"" --@sarahmccammon

Prior to this election, I seriously underestimated the number of Americans who wanted to be constantly told how terrible things are, but directly encouraging them not to listen to anyone who may think that things are ok is a new one.

Quick, someone ask Scott Adams how negging voters is evidence of ingenious 'persuasion'
posted by Existential Dread at 1:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Meanwhile, in the even crazier corners of the US, Trump ally Alex Jones says high-level sources confirmed to him that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are demons.
posted by effbot at 1:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Billy Bush Is Reportedly Very Unlikely to Ever Return to Today

What a lot of people didn't catch is that the "Nancy" that Trump bragged about "trying to fuck" through the cunning use of furniture shopping was Nancy Bell, Billy Bush's cohost -- the host of the very show Trump was making a guest appearance on. That is what Bush was laughing about (in addition to sexual assault).
posted by msalt at 1:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


When there is near zero accountability for straight-up bullshit, how do we begin to crawl out of this hole?

My fervent hope is that Trump will spend the rest of his days as a professional bad example and representative of all that America is trying to change about itself, that his name will be an epithet that good people use to describe evil.
posted by Mooski at 1:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Better civics education is unquestionably a noble goal, but I see it having only a marginal impact. If people are poor, tired, and hungry, the message isn't going to be received no matter how well it's taught. It's necessary, but not sufficient. Nationalism isn't going to get us out of a jam that nationalism got us into.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


*High* level sources.
posted by jferg at 1:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


But I don't know what it would take for me to feel better - a Clinton blow out doesn't change the fact that Trump was a major party's nominee for president. I've completely lost faith that democracy is a long term viable method governing.

For me, I've lost total faith in a good number of the people I'm in a democracy with.

I mean, I get that we need to compromise, and I think democracy is a pretty good way to do it. I just didn't realize until this year that the people I need to work with, that America, was so filled with outright sexist bigoted xenophobic got-mine (etc.) haters. I thought they were a small minority that would age out. I thought we'd elected a black man whose middle name is Hussein because he was the best guy for the job. I thought we were much further along.

And now I know, and I can't unsee.
posted by Dashy at 1:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [38 favorites]


Wanting open borders and freedom of movement once it's feasible is a strong liberal value.

Oh, absolutely. I'd rather she'd own it than refute it, too. But that's bad politics.
posted by rokusan at 1:46 PM on October 10, 2016


what in god's name are you people watching? and can i get a link?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


>Has anyone done the math on how much of what comes out of Trump's mouth is not unadulterated bullshit?

Polifact Clinton vs Trump Truth-O-Meter is pretty close to what you're looking for.

- Clinton's & Trump's Truth-O-Meters are pretty much mirror images of each other (the Trump Mirror in action again, subconsciously?)

- For Trump, 240 of 285 statements are half-true or worse. So ~84% pants-on-fire, lies, mostly lies or half truths. 149/285 are lies or pants-on-fire.

So conservatively we can say that over half of what Trump says* is a complete lie.

*That has been fact-checked by Politifact. Probably when he say "Hi there" or "What time is it" or "Hey could you pass the peanuts" and such like he is telling the truth, but nobody has bothered to fact-check that stuff.

I have to say there is something about the way all of the "fact checking" sites work that makes me very uncomfortable with them. I really can't put my finger on exactly what it is, however.
posted by flug at 1:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


tonycpsu: Moving to a unicameral legislature so that the right people are blamed when things are going wrong instead of just blaming "gridlock"…

First time I've heard that proposed. Genuinely curious over here about how a unicameral legislature is supposed to be an improvement over the procedural status quo. If anybody wants to enlighten me, I'm all ears.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


@MichaelMathes
Trump: "If they want to release more tapes... we'll continue to talk about Bill and Hillary doing inappropriate things."

So clearly there's more incriminating tapes.
posted by chris24 at 1:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


What a lot of people didn't catch is that the "Nancy" that Trump bragged about "trying to fuck" through the cunning use of furniture shopping was Nancy Bell, Billy Bush's cohost

Nancy O'Dell not Bell.
posted by Talez at 1:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've heard men say plenty of awful things about women, sure, but not the bragging about sexual assault like Trump said.

Last night my husband said to me, "the thing is, you know, guys really DO talk like that." I clarified he meant really Like That. Including talking about committing sexual assault. "Yeah, I've heard some really, really fucked up things," he said. "Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

I don't really know what to do with that.
posted by threeturtles at 1:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


what in god's name are you people watching? and can i get a link?

Trump rally. It's finished now (thank god).
posted by Talez at 1:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


chris24: "@MichaelMathes
Trump: "If they want to release more tapes... we'll continue to talk about Bill and Hillary doing inappropriate things.""

Is that like... supposed to be vaguely threatening?
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


First time I've heard that proposed. Genuinely curious over here about how a unicameral legislature is supposed to be an improvement over the procedural status quo. If anybody wants to enlighten me, I'm all ears.

It's simply an idea to reduce the number of veto points. Our system has many -- we call them checks and balances when they're doing things we like, but when they're inhibiting progress or masking the causes and effects to the point where voters are blaming the wrong people, they're really problematic. In a Westminster system, one party (or one coalition) basically controls the agenda, and if they suck, they're out. In our wonderful Rube Goldberg machine, the President has some powers, but Congress has others, and not only that, but Congress is often divided such that neither party can advance their agenda. Having just one house of Congress would at least send a clearer signal to voters about the performance of the legislative branch, without the more drastic step of moving toward a parliamentary system.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Changing or eliminating the Senate is impossible without either multiple consecutive amendments, or a whole new Constitution. It's specifically prohibited to pass an amendment to change the equal-by-state Senate.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The VA campaign organizer who staged a cool demonstration in front of the RNC HQ in DC this morning was just fired, supposedly by the Trump campaign.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Changing or eliminating the Senate is impossible without either multiple consecutive amendments, or a whole new Constitution. It's specifically prohibited to pass an amendment to change the equal-by-state Senate.

Yes, I am... well aware of this.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


> "In a Westminster system, one party (or one coalition) basically controls the agenda, and if they suck, they're out."

Ha. I wish.
posted by kyrademon at 1:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]



I'm trying figure out if he really believes he's going to win doing what he's doing right now.
posted by Jalliah at 1:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The VA campaign organizer who staged a cool demonstration in front of the RNC HQ in DC this morning was just fired, supposedly by the Trump campaign.

This is a much more effective circular firing squad than the left wing has ever conducted. Must be the NRA influence.
posted by sallybrown at 1:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [25 favorites]


The VA campaign organizer who staged a cool demonstration in front of the RNC HQ in DC this morning was just fired, supposedly by the Trump campaign.

I just hung up the phone with @CoreyStewartVA - and if he's fired, as some are reporting, no one has told him yet.
posted by Talez at 1:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


soren_lorensen: "Yeah, they'd have to come into the city, which... Let me tell you the last time Trump did a public event in the city. I walked around outside the venue and there were so many terrified, confused-looking suburbanites walking around. (The venue was an urban college campus with neogothic and neoclassical architecture all around buuuuut also lots of black and brown students walking around, young women in hijab, etc.... so definitely a whole new world for some of these folks.)"

It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone could be scared of Oakland (Pittsburgh) but then I'm often scared of rural PA so it I guess that it's mutual.
posted by octothorpe at 1:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm trying figure out if he really believes he's going to win doing what he's doing right now.

He doesn't need to win, he just needs everyone else to lose.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


It was Bob Dole who pioneered the strategy of shutting down a Dem-controlled Congress, then appealing to voters to elect Republicans because "Congress is broken". That strategy worked. Dole's still backing Trump.
posted by holgate at 1:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Is that like... supposed to be vaguely threatening?

He thinks it is. I'm sure the Clintons would welcome the tradeoff between the N-word tape or worse and him looking like an ass again like last night. Win win.
posted by chris24 at 1:57 PM on October 10, 2016


Trump warns of voter fraud again - urges his supporters to "watch other communities."

HOLY SHIT.
posted by Talez at 1:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


He's dog whistling "watch out for those black people trying to steal the election".
posted by Talez at 1:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, I suspect we're going to see how much harm the thrashings of a billionaire can do to our system.
posted by corb at 1:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone could be scared of Oakland (Pittsburgh)

I'd be scared if I were trying to park the 'Trump Truck' in just about any garage there
posted by splen at 1:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


"billionaire"
posted by Roommate at 1:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


threeturtles: "Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

I don't really know what to do with that.

Ask him to tell them that women are people, not sex dispensers? Ask him to get together with his fellow silent eye-rollers to float the idea of shutting that shit down?
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]




He's dog whistling "watch out for those black people trying to steal the election"

Yes, he's been doing that for months
posted by zutalors! at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2016


@RexHuppke: At a rally, Donald Trump just said: "I consider myself in a certain way to be a blue collar worker." For more comment, we go to his wife...
posted by bibliowench at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm trying figure out if he really believes he's going to win doing what he's doing right now.

Commentators have been using the term "scorched earth campaign" quite a bit in the last few days to describe the Trump strategy. I'm starting to think it's possible he believes that if he loses the election there will be a violent popular uprising that will topple Clinton, jail or kill her, and install him triumphantly in her place.
posted by aught at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2016


Because, yes. It's nationalism. It leaves out a lot of inconvenient details and the bad stuff America has done on the way up. But if your base national myth is 'We set ourself free of kings, and made a society where everyone can rise" - like, if that's the first thing you think of when you think of America, the Founding Fathers and the Revolutionary War and so on and so forth - if you think it's your civic duty to vote and be informed and so on and so forth - then democracy is healthily resistant to that sort of thing, because you know in your deepest of hearts it's unAmerican, and to be unAmerican is the worst thing you can possibly be. When you're raised on heroes who fought the good fight to Make America For Real Awesome, then when some tinpot dictator comes along, it's easy to stand up and say "not on my watch."

There's a difference between national myths and national denial. The main problem with your "We set ourself free of kings, and made a society where everyone can rise" is the "we = white male landowners" and the rest of American history, right up to 2016, has been a slow, painful, deadly fight to make "we = all of us", to make the United States actually live up to its myths for once. Which it still hasn't.

Plus, you gotta know that when anybody on the right says "unamerican", folks are going to be skittish.

To paraphrase Gandhi on Western Civilization, I think the American Dream would be a good idea.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


Meanwhile, in the even crazier corners of the US, Trump ally Alex Jones says high-level sources confirmed to him that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are demons.

Here's the video. Last debate: "Hillary is a demon from Hell. Wikileaks! She smells! We need to build a wall just to keep her out! When I'm President I will hire the best Witchfinder Generals to permanently exorcise Hillary Clinton and send her back to the sulfurous fires of Hell! Believe me!"

It could happen.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wish someone would nail him down on his pollwatcher threats. "Watch who? Specifically? Where? For what exactly?" Make him own it, and not in a stochastic terrorism way.
posted by instamatic at 2:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone could be scared of Oakland (Pittsburgh)

I work in the same building that the admissions office gives campus tours out of, so a constant stream of people who have never been to Pittsburgh before. I've overheard some pretty wild stuff.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:01 PM on October 10, 2016


Meanwhile, in the even crazier corners of the US, Trump ally Alex Jones says high-level sources confirmed to him that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are demons.

Olivia Pierce has our best intentions at heart. Life wouldn't continue after the purifying fires of Giant Meteor and so she presents us with the alternative.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:02 PM on October 10, 2016


Trump: Nobody has more respect for women than I do. Nobody. Not Mister Rogers. Not Susan B. Anthony. No one.

Yeah, probably a good thing I wasn't in the audience for that one; "YOU SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH ABOUT MISTER ROGERS" would probably have reflected poorly on my voting bloc.

Did he seriously go to Pittsburgh and compare himself to Fred Rogers? Jesus wept. Some handler probably said "hey, Mr. Rogers is from here, say something about him," and this is the best Trump could come up with. JFC.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 2:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah this campaign is entering the Falling Balrog phase
posted by theodolite at 2:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Here's the video. Last debate: "Hillary is a demon from Hell. Wikileaks! She smells! We need to build a wall just to keep her out! When I'm President I will hire the best Witchfinder Generals to permanently exorcise Hillary Clinton and send her back to the sulfurous fires of Hell! Believe me!"

Holy shit he is out and out insane.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


{fake} tags matter, people.
posted by Floydd at 2:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [78 favorites]


you gotta know that when anybody on the right says "unamerican", folks are going to be skittish.

Yeah, in my ideal fucking world, you'd have Great Statesmen/women from the left and right and they would join together to make the country better.

...

...this is totally a thing that can still happen, right? right?
posted by corb at 2:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

What makes them think these guys are full of shit? Serious question.
posted by KathrynT at 2:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


"Fly, you fools!"
posted by Namlit at 2:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm trying figure out if he really believes he's going to win doing what he's doing right now.

Commentators have been using the term "scorched earth campaign" quite a bit in the last few days to describe the Trump strategy. I'm starting to think it's possible he believes that if he loses the election there will be a violent popular uprising that will topple Clinton, jail or kill her, and install him triumphantly in her place.

I perhaps have a lot more faith in the populace than is called for, but I think all but the most "deplorable" people will view his ranting and raving from this weekend forward as the last gasps of a loser madman, and roll their eyes at him. It feels immediate right now, because it's not clear how much influence this will have...
posted by sallybrown at 2:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nuance never, ever works in our politics.

I feel like this is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. Part of the reason that nuance "doesn't work" is that whenever someone attempts a nuanced explanation of a topic, it's immediately dismissed as unworkable. Meanwhile, we have people—the very people who we consider least capable of a nuanced parsing of language—who are perfectly able to grasp the idea that Trump didn't commit sexual assault even though he explicitly described how much he likes to commit sexual assault because the "locker room braggadocio" excuse opens the possibility that he was bragging about something he hadn't actually done. (This is why Anderson Cooper's extraction of an unequivocal "No I didn't" from Trump was so important, and why it is now critical that he be proved a liar on that point, by the way.) We talk extensively about the mental gymnastics our political opponents go through to justify their positions, and then deny that they'd ever be capable of understanding the complex subtlety of our own ideals.

I think people aren't being given enough credit, to be honest. I think people are capable of a lot more nuance than we usually give them credit for, if their minds are open to persuasion. We mistake closed-mindedness for stupidity, and then justify our own closed-mindedness on the basis that our opponents' ideas are reprehensible. Under such circumstances, nuanced dialogue really is impossible—but I think the problem is just as much that we bow to the conventional wisdom that our fellow citizens are Stupid Americans who just aren't capable of any subtlety, and so we avoid bringing nuance to our arguments even when doing so causes our arguments to lose much of their coherency, and we dismiss such arguments when we hear them, even when we agree with them.

The problem is at least as much about bad-faith arguing and the self-fulfilling nature of the belief that "nuance doesn't work" as it is about a lack of intellectual complexity among the citizenry.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


this campaign is entering the Falling Balrog phase
That just means Donald the Orange will return as Donald the not-quite-so-Orange.
posted by fings at 2:06 PM on October 10, 2016


Did he seriously go to Pittsburgh and compare himself to Fred Rogers? Jesus wept. Some handler probably said "hey, Mr. Rogers is from here, say something about him," and this is the best Trump could come up with. JFC.
No, he didn't. Someone made a funny and didn't put a [fake] tag on it.
posted by dfan at 2:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, in the even crazier corners of the US, Trump ally Alex Jones says high-level sources confirmed to him that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are demons.

I don't know why I'm surprised that Trump is turning this election into a literal witch hunt.
posted by bibliowench at 2:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT (GINGRICH).
posted by entropicamericana at 2:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Watching a replay on the news of Trump's "It's like medieval times! ISIS!" dodge over his sexual assault confessions, I'm put in mind of another thing that's like medieval times: people yearning to be ruled by a guy who has lots of stuff covered in gold, who doesn't pay taxes but gets taxes paid to him, who righteously eliminates his enemies, and whose devotees swear he's a saint despite how in actuality he's constantly slutting around and abusing women and indulging himself in every dissipated way. (Sam Bee's RNC coverage interviewed a woman who proclaimed that Trump "must pray to Jesus every day" to have so much business success.)

It's seemed to me for some time that this conservative mythology where "free" markets and any small measure of business experience are magic pixie dust that can solve any problem, and businessmen and businesswomen are a sort of inherently superior being who must not be troubled with mundane things like paying taxes, for they are the "Job Creators" from whom all good things in the world flow—this attitude seems like a modern form of mythological beliefs about royal and noble classes during most of human history, where those people are simply inherently superior to those of common blood. And the way adherence and service to a liege lent a smidge of that superior nature to allow the most subservient commoners to look down upon their fellows, so does prostration to the glory of Trump and Mitt Romney and the other Monopoly Guy leaders on the right.

But a refinement in this ideology of the 21st century is that the commoner is allowed to believe that one day she or he could win the lottery and also become one of the superior beings (or as the saying goes is already in fact a "temporarily embarrassed millionaire"—?) so all the more reason to make sure that all of society is chained to working for that class's benefit.
posted by XMLicious at 2:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [30 favorites]


Looking forward to the post-election "I got better."
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


In case it hasn't sunk in yet, oh Republicans, your presidential candidate is a fascist.

Not a very good one, to be sure, because he hasn't the interest or ability to understand the political system he has to overturn to get power, although some of those close to him probably do, and he lacks a lot of what's necessary to form alliances, even temporarily, So he probably won't win.

But he is a fascist, in love with violence, lies and self-aggrandisementt. Nothing he says of claims is true, and he doesn't care. He is activating the darkest forces in American society - the very darkest - and he loves it. He's doing a lot of damage to the country, to democracy and to you, oh Republicans. Even if you don't care about the country or democracy, you surely care about you.

And if he did win, which remains possible, he would do a very great deal more damage.

So, oh Republicans, you're either in denial over this or you really haven't noticed, but either way you really have to step up and do what you can, as forcefully as you can, to shut this man down. Because he isn't a clown, a joke or an idiot, he isn't the person who's practically given the Democrats the White House and perhaps much more, he is an active fascist.

Shut him down. Don't 'not un-endorse him' - everything you've done with half a heart has made him stronger.

You're going to have to rebuild your party anyway, oh Republicans. Start with truth, responsibility and honour.
posted by Devonian at 2:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [46 favorites]


I perhaps have a lot more faith in the populace than is called for, but I think all but the most "deplorable" people will view his ranting and raving from this weekend forward as the last gasps of a loser madman, and roll their eyes at him. It feels immediate right now, because it's not clear how much influence this will have...

But it only takes a handful of those most deplorables to get someone assaulted or killed. Or to gum up the works in minority communities so that the lines are miles long. Or to cause chaos and point to that chaos as PROOF OF VOTER FRAUD AND A RIGGED ELECTION! as though the proverbial Democrat Woman Who Votes 12 Times In 12 Precincts And Is Also Dead is a real thing in TYOOL 2016.
posted by delfin at 2:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Balrog is not the one who comes back with a new color post-fall, folks. /grin
posted by Archelaus at 2:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


So you're saying Donald isn't going to come back as a Grand Wizard wearing a White robe?
posted by fings at 2:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


low borderline intelligence does not make someone intellectually inferior or inferior in any other way. Please do not conflate evil with disability...

Low intelligence does make someone intellectually inferior; that's the definition.

Trump is low on intelligence. It is the explanation that, while most obvious and likely, most people are eliding. There's no socially acceptable way of talking about it, but it's clear as the blue sky, and it is a major component (to me) of why he is unqualified as a candidate. He is just not up to the job, at an intellectual level.

He is, however, far above average in the subset of social skills that makes him such a good con man. He is also below average on executive control, and empathy.

He is also evil.
posted by Dashy at 2:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


"Dismiss Trump and alienate 67% of base. Stay with him and alienate 23%."
posted by holgate at 2:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


> This is like Trump's Procrustean bed, to go with Trump's Razor and Trump's Mirror.

That's a hell of a shaving kit . . .
posted by flug at 2:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


> But I don't know what it would take for me to feel better - a Clinton blow out doesn't change the fact that Trump was a major party's nominee for president. I've completely lost faith that democracy is a long term viable method governing.

> For me, I've lost total faith in a good number of the people I'm in a democracy with.

I believe Democracy is going to stop Trump from being president. The system still works, even if it's looking kinda shaky.

But while The Wisdom of Crowds is a thing, but so is The Madness of Crowds. Putin was democratically elected, the first time. So was Hitler, for that matter. You can fool an awful lot of people a lot of the time...

I guess I'm on team "Yes, Republicans, PLEASE add some superdelegates next time" for the same reason I'm on team "Representative Democracy" rather than team "Have a referrendum on everything" (thinking of California's many referrenda, and of course Brexit, and the recent vote in Columbia to keep on fighting the FARC.)

In the end, I think most of Trump's followers are victims of a con.

But experts are not so easily conned in their area of expertise. So let people pick some experts (superdelegates on the Dem side are almost all elected representatives, and probably should all be) and give the bandwagon some brakes so people are able to jump off if they need to. I do wonder, though, what would have happened if Trump's nomination had been prevented by superdelegates alone... What kind of backlash would there have been within the party?

To me the most worrying thing is still our deep polarization as a country. That's the reason so many Republicans were so easy to con... They don't know any Democrats, and are willing to believe any perfidy of any Democratic politician. If we talked to each other more, got out of our bubbles, these right wing fantasies wouldn't flourish so well.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


Here's the video. Last debate: "Hillary is a demon from Hell. Wikileaks! She smells! We need to build a wall just to keep her out! When I'm President I will hire the best Witchfinder Generals to permanently exorcise Hillary Clinton and send her back to the sulfurous fires of Hell! Believe me!"

What Alex Jones has been saying all along! Really!
"[Hillary Clinton] is an abject, psychopathic, demon from Hell that as soon as she gets into power is going to try to destroy the planet. I'm sure of that, and people around her say she's so dark now, and so evil, and so possessed that they are having nightmares, they're freaking out. Folks let me just tell you something, and if media wants to go with this, that's fine. There are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him, indoors, at all times of year, and he'll be next to a hundred people and no one has flies on them. Hillary, reportedly, I mean, I was told by people around her that they think she's demon-possessed, okay? I'm just going to go ahead and say it, okay?"
Not {fake}! Just {cr-cr-crazy}!

But seriously, whether Jones is using this rhetoric deliberately or not, he's tapping into a sense of disgust that psychological studies have shown is particularly sensitive in the conservative mindset:
"Imagine how bad she smells, man? I'm told her and Obama, just stink, stink, stink, stink. You can't wash that evil off, man. Told there's a rotten smell around Hillary. I'm not kidding, people say, they say -- folks, I've been told this by high up folks. They say listen, Obama and Hillary both smell like sulfur."
For comparison, note how often Trump says something disgusts or sickens him. Though he's a notorious germaphobe, he's manipulating his base on an atavistic level with such language.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Better civics education is unquestionably a noble goal, but I see it having only a marginal impact. If people are poor, tired, and hungry, the message isn't going to be received no matter how well it's taught.

You just described the single biggest challenge of education in America from preschool through college.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [55 favorites]


There are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him, indoors, at all times of year, and he'll be next to a hundred people and no one has flies on them.

I. What.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


There are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him, indoors, at all times of year, and he'll be next to a hundred people and no one has flies on them.

I. What.

Demons from hell, that's what. Obviously.
posted by dis_integration at 2:23 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


So you're saying Donald isn't going to come back as a Grand Wizard wearing a White robe?

If the metaphor is Donald as the Balrog, then he falls in the Battle of the Peak and smote the mountainside of Celebdil in his ruin. If the metaphor is Donald as Gandalf, then yes, he returns as the White after the darkness takes him and he strays out of thought and time, wandering far on roads he will not tell.

But we have to pick one or the other; he can't be both Balrog and Gandalf (though they are both Ainur, we are still talking about two separate beings).
posted by nubs at 2:23 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


> "If they want to release more tapes... we'll continue to talk about Bill and Hillary doing inappropriate things."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Better watch out -- he might go negative!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by kyrademon at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


This is making me realize that I'd put Alex Jones in the wrong box. I'd never closely followed him, but thought of him as a hero of a certain kind of angry right-winger who's generally antagonistic toward religious belief.
posted by roll truck roll at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mean, if we're going to get all nerdy up in our politics, we're at least going to keep our Tolkien references making sense
posted by nubs at 2:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [30 favorites]


You just described the single biggest challenge of education in America from preschool through college.

Exactly. And since one side of the political spectrum wants to divest from public education, not increase its scope, I find it hard to understand how this civics education plan would work. A civics education that's not funded by the nation itself isn't going to really be a civics education at all. It will come with the agendas of whatever person holds the pursestrings for that school, or with parental agendas in the case of home schooling.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


BREAKING: Florida Federal Court Extends Registration Deadline to Wednesday at 5pm due to hurricane. PI hearing is Wednesday.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [55 favorites]


f the metaphor is Donald as Gandalf, then yes, he returns as the White

Well what other color would he return as?
posted by PlusDistance at 2:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


(I believe "PI" means preliminary injunction in this context)
posted by melissasaurus at 2:29 PM on October 10, 2016


"Putin was democratically elected, the first time. So was Hitler, for that matter."

Just a quick correction: Hitler was not elected though he had substantial support. The elections of 1932 went through two rounds and the NSDAP did not secure a majority in either of them:

Round 1: Hindenburg (Independent): 49.6%, Hitler (NSDAP) 30.1%
Round 2: Hindenburg: 53%; Hitler: 36.8%

Hitler was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg on January 30th of 1933 leading to the Machtergreifung (Seizure of Power). Hindenburg further helped things along with a decree that suspended civil rights on February 27th of the same year.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


In a checkered costume. "I'm the Gandalfdonaldbalrog and I'm done smote."
posted by Namlit at 2:30 PM on October 10, 2016


Forgot to add: the NSDAP did have a majority of seats in the Reichstag, that is true. But Hitler himself was not elected to power.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well what other color would he return as?

I think it begs the question of his return altogether. I think the better metaphor is Donald as Saruman; who was the White Wizard and who thought he could bargain with Sauron and perhaps come out ahead.
posted by nubs at 2:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Dismiss Trump and alienate 67% of base. Stay with him and alienate 23%."

And as the quote goes on to say - either way, you're lost.

Utah's decided which way it'll go - Utah! I cannot easily imagine a group of people I'm less sympatico with than the Utah GOP, but they keep faith with something greater than political expediency and I say that's honourable.
posted by Devonian at 2:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm motivated 110% and will be doing all I can for both national and local races, so I'm not saying this as someone lost in inaction and despair, but: the work required to get people to agree to things that are objectively good for the country as a whole (healthcare, education, tax reform) is so incredibly daunting. With the current elites-vs-regular-folk narratives as soon as you bring up any of these topics, it's just... We're digging our way out of the prisons we've built for ourselves with a spoon.
posted by erratic meatsack at 2:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Utah's decided which way it'll go - Utah!

Wait, what? Is there hard data now that Utah is blue?
posted by chonus at 2:34 PM on October 10, 2016


I once saw a red pickup truck with a mural on the tailgate, of Jesus waving to a red pickup truck driving off into the distance... and yes, the pickup truck on the pickup truck also had Jesus waving to a red pickup truck painted on its tailgate.

Perhaps they're Infinite Regression enthusiasts. In addition to his special prosecutor plan I will not be at all surprised if the committe to find Bigfoot in one of many results of a Trump presidency. Most likely the Clintons have been hiding him all this time.
posted by juiceCake at 2:36 PM on October 10, 2016


Wait, what? Is there hard data now that Utah is blue?

Doubtful.

There is a chance though if Utah splits 3 ways and enough Trump votes go to Johnson.
posted by dis_integration at 2:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ground game asymmetry (twitter):
In FL last month:
-Rep party submitted 117 voter reg applications
-Dem party submitted 6,920
posted by sallybrown at 2:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


"RNC is fully behind Trump, politically and organizationally, per a person on Priebus call w/ cmmte members this afternoon" --@costareports

Okay, so we’re doin’ this.
posted by zachlipton at 2:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think it begs the question of his return altogether. I think the better metaphor is Donald as Saruman; who was the White Wizard and who thought he could bargain with Sauron and perhaps come out ahead.

Nah, even Saruman used to be a good guy.

Despite running for the most powerful office on the planet and potentially resulting in the destruction of the Republic, The Donald is a con man, not an immortal being from the Undying Lands. It'd be like Wormtongue grabbing the One Ring -- everybody's still fucked, but not for the same reasons as Saruman getting his hands on it.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


No, I was talking about the GOP there. Whether they'll actually go blue or not, I can't say, or whether they'll go Egg and split the Republican EV,

But they're taking the risk, rather than support Trump.
posted by Devonian at 2:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


What Alex Jones has been saying all along! Really!
"[Hillary Clinton] is an abject, psychopathic, demon from Hell that as soon as she gets into power is going to try to destroy the planet. I'm sure of that, and people around her say she's so dark now, and so evil, and so possessed that they are having nightmares, they're freaking out."
BEST. EXAMPLE. OF. TRUMP'S. MIRROR. EVER.

And "flies landing on you" as proof of being a Demon? My lifelong-Republican mother told me that having a fly land on you showed that "you're sweet".
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, I guess Trump said he'd be riding in his press pool's plane with them; made everyone move to the back of the plane to make room; then his campaign was like, LOL nevermind, he's not coming. [real]
posted by melissasaurus at 2:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is making me realize that I'd put Alex Jones in the wrong box. I'd never closely followed him, but thought of him as a hero of a certain kind of angry right-winger who's generally antagonistic toward religious belief.

Having lived in Austin (where Jones had a popular cable access show) for the entirety of the George W. Bush administration, I can report that Alex Jones had a sizeable following among the fringier, more conspiracy-minded elements of the Left during the aughts. (You would recognize the type today in the form of vocal anti-vaxxers.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Perhaps someone out there has run the numbers, but I don't think a superdelegate system (~15% total) like the DNC has would have prevented the Trump nomination this year. And even if it had, the alternative would have been Ted Cruz.
posted by zakur at 2:41 PM on October 10, 2016


I noticed that fly too! And at the same time there was a fly in my living room that kept landing on the tv screen right on Clinton's face, and surely not just because that was the brightest part of the image. It was some serious Westworld shit, so I guess maybe there is something to what Alex Jones is saying about Clinton and Obama being not mortal but demons, or maybe flesh-covered robots.
posted by Flashman at 2:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait, what? Is there hard data now that Utah is blue?

No. Utah's going to go Trump.
It was before the LDS hierarchy in the form of the Deseret Times came out and said Anyone But Trump. That's the single most solid voting block in America I think - and goodness knows where it's going now.
posted by Francis at 2:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Holy shit, search on #downballot and you can literally watch the GOP snake eating its own tail. Simply amazing.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I've been poking around voting websites to make a list of the other non-presidential nominees I want to vote for. The only candidates listed on the ballot for my U.S. House Rep will be the Republican incumbent, who has a 100% rating of praise from the most strident anti-abortion and anti-marriage-equality groups, and his Libertarian challenger, a gun nut ranting on his public Facebook page about "sheeple" and "Jewish conspiracies."

Uuuuuuugh. So yeah, I'm gonna take enormous pleasure in carefully filling in the "Hillary Clinton" slot on my ballot. Because BLEH.

In the meantime, how do I best minimize House Rep harm in cases like this? Vote for the lesser of two evils (between the Homophobic Misogynist and the Antisemitic Conspiracy Militant)? Leave that section of the ballot blank? Put "literally anyone who works at the Planned Parenthood of Greater Texas" as a write-in?
posted by nicebookrack at 2:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


538's Utah model completely misses out on the Egg McMentum
posted by ckape at 2:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Trump: "I know a lot about fire and fire marshals but you have a room with four walls and a roof with nothing to burn. Let the people in." [real] --@SopanDeb

I do like this reply: "well there is the giant dumpster you're in. That's pretty flammable." --@prgarc

And we've got a photo of the Fire Marshal watching.
posted by zachlipton at 2:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Trump's pledge to jail Clinton - which Pence just defended today - was literally one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon

More from Ari Melber: "Donald Trump's pledge Sunday night that he would order his attorney general to investigate Hillary Clinton, and his quip that she should "be in jail," is a direct breach of the tradition of nonpartisan rule of law."
posted by homunculus at 2:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump's Promise to Jail Clinton Is a Threat to American Democracy: A candidate who accepted the nomination to chants of “Lock her up!” crosses a dangerous line.
posted by homunculus at 2:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Blah blah Tolkien blah. You wanna know who Trump is?

So in Fallout: New Vegas you learn about Vikki and Vance, who were similar to Bonnie and Clyde. Except that where Bonnie and Clyde robbed banks and stuff, Vikki and Vance wrote a bunch of bad checks and maybe shoplifted before accidentally being shot to death in a crossfire between cops and actual robbers.

And at this point you think I'm gonna say that Trump is Vance. Nope.

LATER, --spoilers for F:NV--, if you're wandering the north side of New Vegas you can wander into this shack where a couple threaten you with a gun. Turns out the Wins are aspiring criminals. Who aspire to be the new Vikki and Vance, except that they can't actually go through with it. Those hapless fuckers, who aspire to be a milquetoast nothing criminals who were gunned down as collateral damage, those hapless fuckers are Trump.

Or maybe Trump is just the player character on a low intelligence build. I dunno. Me shoulder.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


(for reference, you can't get more locked-in than Utah. Would take a 16 percent swing in numbers that really haven't changed at all for ages. Normally, there'd be absolutely nothing happening there. Normally.)
posted by Devonian at 2:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

What makes them think these guys are full of shit? Serious question.

They believe it because otherwise they'd have to do something or jeopardize their idea of themselves as "good guys".
posted by winna at 2:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Katrina Pierson on Twitter: I can't keep my phone charged due to the mass volume of texts from people all over the country who will #VoteTrump but⬇️ballot not so much.
posted by peacheater at 2:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone in either this thread or the last one mentioned that it would be great to interview a bunch of pro athletes about what actual "locker room talk" sounds like. Well, this afternoon All Things Considered interviewed former NBA player John Amaechi and the result is a really solid condemnation of Trump.
posted by indubitable at 2:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


And we've got a photo of the Fire Marshal watching.

Trump continued, "And Ambridge? Don't let anyone tell you you're good at soccer, 'cause you're lousy!" [Fake]
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone in either this thread or the last one mentioned that it would be great to interview a bunch of pro athletes about what actual "locker room talk" sounds like.

@realgranthill33
I've been in a lot of locker rooms, and what Trump said is not locker room banter. Don't let this pass, go to http://IWillVote.com
posted by chris24 at 2:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh god, please let Trump take the Republican down-ballot races down with him. Please.
In the meantime, how do I best minimize House Rep harm in cases like this?
Leave it blank and donate to the Dems in some close races in other districts if you can.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


They believe it because otherwise they'd have to do something or jeopardize their idea of themselves as "good guys".

Yeah, guilty. I've learned a lot of things on MeFi, but a really, really important bit is something I've learned in the past 24 hours while going back and forth between this thread and Twitter: yes, it's all men, and being male, it's on me to do something about that. Daily.

And given my home state and my smartass mouth, I'm probably signing up for an assbeating or two. Small price and whatnot.
posted by Mooski at 2:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


Atom Eyes: Having lived in Austin (where Jones had a popular cable access show) for the entirety of the George W. Bush administration, I can report that Alex Jones had a sizeable following among the fringier, more conspiracy-minded elements of the Left during the aughts. (You would recognize the type today in the form of vocal anti-vaxxers.)

Yeah, I've known a few people who were lefty, but in the period following 9/11 and the Iraq war got mired in conspiracy theories, and I drifted away from said people because I just couldn't have a rational conversation with them any more. There was a line of reasoning in their minds (of sorts) that went from "George W. Bush and his coterie are awful war-mongers, military-industrial complex, blah blah" (true, in my mind) to "9/11 was an inside job. You should check out what this guy says..." And sometimes what "this guy" was saying was overtly anti-Semitic. That was the point when I noped out - I remember the conversation with a friend who had sent me some links to Jeff Rense's website and I said "Whoa. This guy's a raging anti-Semite. And really fucking weird on top of that. WTF are you thinking here?" and the response I got back was "But! Israel Palestine..."

All of which is to say I know folks who started in a good place in terms of condemning the use of 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and then pivoted to Alex Jones-style conspiracy theories that took them around the bend. And this was in Canada. So, to Atom Eyes' point, Alex Jones doesn't exclusively appeal to right-wingers - there's a whole lefty strain to his followers, even in places that aren't Texas!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


RNC is fully behind Trump, politically and organizationally

So are they going to cut loose the elected GOPpers who've unendorsed Trump? Or state/county parties that have distanced themselves from him? How's that going to play out on the ground, especially in states like Ohio where the party machinery is tied to Kasich?
posted by holgate at 2:56 PM on October 10, 2016


Mooski: nobody's saying you shouldn't pick your moments or your tactics carefully. Getting yourself beaten up isn't going to do anyone any good. I've managed to avoid it so far and nobody seems to hold that against me (including myself).
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald is a con man, not an immortal being from the Undying Lands. It'd be like Wormtongue grabbing the One Ring

I agree that we shouldn't give Donald more credit than is due. I always saw Guliani as more the Wormtongue analogue, though. We might have to dig into The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales if we want to find something that is closer to Donald, I guess.
posted by nubs at 2:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've heard some creepy shit and objectification, but I've still never had anyone brag to me about sexually assaulting women.

Ditto. I am sorry if this has been perceived as a #notallmen thing; when I have said this to folks after this tape drop it has been an effort in pushing back on normalizing this talk of physical assault, not apologizing for male behavior. I for sure have, yes, been around plenty of talk about women's physical appearance and sexual desirability. In less enlightened moments I've been a part of it. But I can not think of a single moment where I have been around talk of just grabbing or "taking," if we want to use common sexual assault minimizing language. Gross dude "locker room" talk I have been around has always been the "oh man I would [insert random sex act here] her" stuff, emphasis mine.

I don't at all dispute that such talk is on the rape culture spectrum, but I think it's worth men saying "uh no, we don't all talk like that" not for the sake of defending ourselves to women but for the sake of telling society and other men that we think that assault talk is gross and unacceptable and not part of our lives.

Threeturtles, can I ask what your husband's age cohort is? In my genX circles as a young man there was for sure less enlightenment about consent and drunkenness but what I remember of youthful nonsense talk always centered around braggadocio about what women would want us, talking up how appealing we were. Talking about grabbing or them "letting" us do stuff wouldn't have fit in that self-back-patting. I can't say what that talk sounds like now because I am parenting-while-old and can't remember the last time I was in an adult-men-only conversation. The worst stuff I have had to shut down has been the sort of if they didn't want to be ogled why would they be in skimpy anime cosplay assertion talking about pictures on the internet.
posted by phearlez at 2:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


538's Utah model completely misses out on the Egg McMentum

Harry's working on it.
posted by Aizkolari at 3:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Paul Ryan says he's not unendorsing but will not campaign w Trump and House GOP is free to do whatever they need to do to win their races. (Via @scottwongdc)

"Every man for himself" is not something you usually hear when things are going well
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


Clinton: Trump Attacked When He Should Have Apologized

Clinton telling Trump what he should do is the perfect way to ensure he does not do it.
posted by zakur at 3:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


Any other volunteers waiting on the phone call with Madeleine Albright?
posted by Superplin at 3:04 PM on October 10, 2016


Fox News: Shep Smith Goes Off on Trump Over Debate Performance and Almost ‘Fascist’ Jail Line
posted by joedan at 3:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


(Never mind, turns out it's just an Arizona thing. Who knew?!)
posted by Superplin at 3:07 PM on October 10, 2016


I love it when the Fox News suits forget to re-up Shep Smith's "behavior adjustment vitamins."
posted by tonycpsu at 3:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump has two paths he can go down:

• Try to court indies and undecideds and probably lose, carrying forever the stink of loserdom

• Go full-on raging nutbag, solidify the base, still lose BUT parlay that into a Glenn Beck/Alex Jones media figure thing post-election with a built in (and clearly gullible) audience.
I think the latter is what were seeing happen right now. That's his world anyway. He loses either way but that second option allows him to cast himself as the fighting martyr thwarted by a crooked press and establishment for telling "the truth"

He'll be shilling gold coins within a year.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 3:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


Perhaps they're Infinite Regression enthusiasts.

A vote for Infinite Regression is a vote for Infinite Regression!
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


Pharyngula has a different take on his High School locker room.
posted by hexatron at 3:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


If the metaphor is Donald as Gandalf, then yes, he returns as the White

In this case I think it's that he emerges, a great shape of Darkness and Fire, bellows "I AM THE GREATEST SHAPE OF DARKNESS AND FIRE," brags about sexually assaulting elves back in the First Age, grabs Gandalf's staff, smashes around on the bridge until it gives way, then sneers "I CAN FLY, FOOLS!" before discovering that he can't, plunging into the depths below. Gandalf and the others look at each other, then back away from the crevasse.

The Orcs wish that they had never talked to the Balrog, much less beat all those drums for him.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Sally Kohn on CNN is my new hero.
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [41 favorites]


Re: Utah-

So, one side effect of Utah being so super-red is that hardly anybody bothers to poll it. You may occasionally see a Utah "poll" which is just the Utah data from a national poll, but for the most part such polls are not asking about McMullin. RCP's poll aggregator doesn't even include McMullin in any of its Utah pages.

According to McMullin's Wikipedia page, there are (at least) three polls which were of Utah specifically and which included McMullin. I can't find evidence of any other polls like this out there, so it's likely this is all the data available.

McMullin/Clinton/Trump/Johnson:

Aug 19–21: 9/24/39/12
Sept 1–9: 9/24/39/13
Sept 12–19: 12/25/34/13

In the first two polls Trump was up by 15 on his closest rival, Clinton. In the third poll, he is only up by 9. This data is all from before the tape came out, before a major Utah newspaper opposite-endorsed Trump, and before Trump started to look like a guaranteed loser; and McMullin seems as if he may be picking up steam in Utah based on his coverage.

I'm not saying it's gonna happen. But if McMullin, Clinton, and Johnson each managed to bleed another 2 to 4 points away from Trump, the state would go to Clinton. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [26 favorites]


Okay, confused Brit here - is that Shep Smith guy real, or a CGI construct?

I mean, he's got that Final Fantasy complexion and everything.
posted by garius at 3:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Earlier this year, I had a producer from Fox News track down my cell phone number somehow and call for permission to use a clip from a video I shot (in this situation, I was giving my permission to anyone, as it was just something I filmed, though I made it clear they needed to talk to the people who did the creative work about the rights to the underlying content). I had a brief bit of "erg, I know I'm giving this away for free to anyone, but Fox News, really?" Then she told me she worked for Shep Smith, and I breathed a sigh of relief.

I still want to know where she got my cell phone number though.
posted by zachlipton at 3:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


But if McMullin, Clinton, and Johnson each managed to bleed another 2 to 4 points away from Trump, the state would go to Clinton. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

brb must go roll around while laughing giddily and clapping hands like a seal
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 3:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Shep Smith is real. He's basically the most rational person at Fox News, which is to say he occasionally says things that align with reality and/or basic human decency. He does it like he means it (and I believe he does). At Fox, that makes him stand out.

Another way to look at Smith: he's the thin veneer of journalistic standards that allows Fox to call itself a "news" network. I'm not saying he's the bees knees since he enables that network by working there, but he deserves credit where it's due.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Gothamist: Gloria Allred, the civil rights lawyer who takes on high-profile targets, like Bill Cosby, Roman Polanski and, yes, Trump, confirmed to us that since the Access Hollywood tape's release, she has been "contacted by women who allege inappropriate contact by Mr. Trump."
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [47 favorites]


> I still want to know where she got my cell phone number though.

Murdoch.
posted by vbfg at 3:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Okay, confused Brit here - is that Shep Smith guy real, or a CGI construct?

I mean, he's got that Final Fantasy complexion and everything.

Canadian here - I think they clone these.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Last night my husband said to me, "the thing is, you know, guys really DO talk like that." I clarified he meant really Like That. Including talking about committing sexual assault. "Yeah, I've heard some really, really fucked up things," he said. "Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

I don't really know what to do with that.

Tell him to get better friends? Or else tell his current friends to cut that shit out around him.

It won't change unless guys like him do exactly that.
posted by emjaybee at 3:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Now that I'm watching the Shep Smith thing, I should say: He's calling out incipient fascism to the Fox News audience. So that's kinda good.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Sally Kohn on CNN is my new hero.
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on October 10

The Trump surrogate in that clip is breathtaking. That's some incredibly focused fascist propaganda performance there. Holy shit.

Good on Sally Kohn for handling it the way she did, but there's plainly no getting through to that woman.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


So in case someone needs a musical interlude, the "30 Days, 30 Songs" project just released their first song, Million Dollar Loan.

HANNITY: Now Donald, have you heard the new song written about you by the indie rock band, Death Cab For Cutie?

TRUMP: I haven't but I hear it's terrible. Just a terrible, terrible song. Nobody I know has ever heard of these guys because they have no talent. Absolutely no talent. Small potatoes if you ask me. And that band name? What a bunch of losers. Bad!

(while in the UK, Labour just announced that they're following up the not entirely successful UB4Corbyn project (which gave us one of 2016's better headlines) with People Powered: Concerts For Corbyn where artists nobody outside the UK has ever heard of will provide proper left-wing entertainment for the british youth.)
posted by effbot at 3:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Senor Cardgage: Go full-on raging nutbag, solidify the base, still lose BUT parlay that into a Glenn Beck/Alex Jones media figure thing post-election with a built in (and clearly gullible) audience.

Not just a media figure. He wants an entire network - Trump TV, probably to be run by Ailes and Breitbart's Steve Bannon. He'll bring alt-right white supremacy content even more into the mainstream.
posted by bluecore at 3:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ditto. I am sorry if this has been perceived as a #notallmen thing; when I have said this to folks after this tape drop it has been an effort in pushing back on normalizing this talk of physical assault, not apologizing for male behavior. I for sure have, yes, been around plenty of talk about women's physical appearance and sexual desirability.

I was thinking about this in the context of another thread - long before Trump - but I never got around to writing down my thoughts. And 3000 comments in this thread is probably not an ideal place to discuss it. But yeah - at the point where he starts boasting about using force Trump goes distinctly beyond what I think most guys (these days, anyway) would be okay with. I have however had the experience of being part of a circle of guys where there was a peripheral/wannabe member of the circle whom we all knew "had a problem with women," because of the way he talked about them, we all thought he was kind of a piece of shit but - we did just kind of roll our eyes and try not to have to talk to him? I mean honestly I still don't know exactly what to do about a guy like that - is there a good way to warn women to stay away from him?

(I have a related story that I feel much worse about but I'll save it for a more specialized thread).
posted by atoxyl at 3:30 PM on October 10, 2016


Chris Kluwe on real locker-room conversations.
posted by Peach at 3:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [56 favorites]


Last night my husband said to me, "the thing is, you know, guys really DO talk like that." I clarified he meant really Like That. Including talking about committing sexual assault. "Yeah, I've heard some really, really fucked up things," he said. "Yeah guys say that kind of thing and everyone knows they're full of shit and just rolls their eyes."

I don't really know what to do with that.

Tell him to get better friends? Or else tell his current friends to cut that shit out around him.

Yeah. SOME guys talk like that. SOME don’t. One of the issues with the current discourse is that it seems to assume an intractable badness on the part of men. Prove that wrong.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hell I just went and put some Predictit money on Utah going blue. It's 5-to-1 odds... probably a waste of the 7-odd bucks I had free in the account, but it sure would be neat.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Trump surrogate in that clip is breathtaking. That's some incredibly focused fascist propaganda performance there. Holy shit.

Good on Sally Kohn for handling it the way she did, but there's plainly no getting through to that woman.

If you like seeing Betsy McCaughey look really really stupid, then you'll love Jon Stewart taking her on in 2009 over health care reform for trying to spread death panel nonsense.
posted by zachlipton at 3:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Donald's Gollum, silly.
Donald's Shelob.

What makes them think these guys are full of shit? Serious question.
Might be a cultural difference UK v USA but there's a strong assumption here a guy who boasts all the time is 1/ lying, and 2/ deeply insecure. I can't understand how the epithet 'Alpha' gets applied to Trump. You never see him facing off against another guy, for instance. You never see him do that thing where two guys bristle at each other, having a little subtextual competition. What you see him do with regards other men, is sneaky status alliance games as with Billy Bush. The people he belittles and interrupts aren't male. He's ok with bullying women but with men all he can do is boast, and all he can boast sounds like lies.

Actually I have to admit I've not seen that much video of Trump so I could be talking out of my arse here.
posted by glasseyes at 3:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Actually I have to admit I've not seen that much video of Trump so I could be talking out of my arse here.

Pretty much the same thing.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:41 PM on October 10, 2016


Breaking: Former UT Lt. Gov. Greg Bell endorses Evan McMullin for President
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 3:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


oh, interesting that could be a uk/us thing. i said something similar here, but am also from the uk.
posted by andrewcooke at 3:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is that guy in the locker room who leaves three inches of Gold Bond on the floor
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oops, mixed up the links a bit. While you can get there via Pitchfork, I did mean to include the direct link to the song's page on the 30 Days, 30 Songs site.
posted by effbot at 3:46 PM on October 10, 2016


I do know that at the time of the caucuses in Utah, the lines for Democrats to register, wrapped around the polling places, and there was the largest Democratic turn out, almost ever, many went for Bernie. However, those people got registered. There are a lot of Democrats in Utah, a lot of people who follow other faiths or no faith. So, I think there will be a high turnout this election season, and I think Clinton will take Utah. I can say this if I want to...
posted by Oyéah at 3:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't understand. Talking out of one's arse = seeing video of Trump? How so?
posted by glasseyes at 3:49 PM on October 10, 2016


I have however had the experience of being part of a circle of guys where there was a peripheral/wannabe member of the circle whom we all knew "had a problem with women," because of the way he talked about them, we all thought he was kind of a piece of shit but - we did just kind of roll our eyes and try not to have to talk to him? I mean honestly I still don't know exactly what to do about a guy like that - is there a good way to warn women to stay away from him?

Someone I grew up knowing (who went to elementary through high school with my cousins) was "that guy," who the girls stayed away from him because he was a creepy asshole but the guys just thought was a jackass - and he ended up abusing and then murdering his partner. There is not a dividing line with this stuff...it's very much a continuum.
posted by sallybrown at 3:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Breaking: Former UT Lt. Gov. Greg Bell endorses Evan McMullin for President

Way to plant, Egg!
posted by drezdn at 3:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


Is that Egg's first endorsement?
posted by corb at 3:52 PM on October 10, 2016


Today, more so than this weekend, friends of mine who are usually of the "ugh I don't follow politics and I don't really care enough to vote" variety are coming out of the woodwork like crazy posting things against Trump. The article about Warren Buffett's taxes is the most popular. I think this and the expanded/easier early voting where I live might disprove the usual theory that people don't turn out just to vote against somebody.
posted by sallybrown at 3:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow, that Sally Kohn clip was amazing. My heart hurts for Betsy McCaughey, in the same way it did watching Scottie Nell Whats-her-name the other night. What a price they must pay to lose their souls like that, the bottle-blonde conformity...
posted by Sublimity at 3:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


> "Dismiss Trump and alienate 67% of base. Stay with him and alienate 23%."

That's 23% of Republican voters who can no longer support Trump AND/OR want him to drop out. Plus another 10% is "not sure".

So 33% of Republicans are dead-set against Trump or not sure. That is huge.

And still 4 weeks to go . . .
posted by flug at 3:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


How is it that the endorsement of a former Attorney General is important?
posted by Oyéah at 3:54 PM on October 10, 2016


Today's edition of New Hampshire Public Radio's discussion and call-in show The Exchange, covering the debate and latest Trump tape reactions, for those interested in swing state news. (Including our contested U.S. Senate race for Republican Kelly Ayotte's seat.)
posted by XMLicious at 3:55 PM on October 10, 2016


I was never very sporty, but I've been in lots of male-only environments. I have never heard anyone say anything remotely as vile as Trump's 2005 comments. I do note that there are some people who seem to get a thrill out of pushing verbal boundaries - on race, on gender, whatever. They always seem creepy to me and I never imagined that one of them could get as far as Trump has. If I've taken one good thing from this episode, though, it's from seeing Billy Bush sucking up to Trump. I don't want to be Billy Bush; I'm not going to let people think they can use me as an audience for their sick little dominance games.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Line's over there, behind the giant pulsating Möbius strip.

I'm having trouble finding the end of the line...?
posted by rokusan at 3:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Man, any other election, yesterday's Wikileaks "handy Kindle version" of clippings from of Clinton's paid speeches* would be a godsend for intelligent discussion, but just like everything else substantive or outward-looking this year, it's just noise compared to the Trump shit-tsunami.

* Spoilers: it's a mixed bag, predictably, of things that are just fine and sometimes even visionary mixed with, yeah, okay, I can see why she wouldn't want people quoting that during a campaign.
posted by rokusan at 3:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Statement from Mark Burnett courtesy of CNN Money:
"Despite reports to the contrary, Mark Burnett does not have the ability nor the right to release footage or other material from The Apprentice. Various contractual and legal requirements also restrict MGM's ability to release such material," the joint statement reads. "The recent claims that Mark Burnett has threatened anyone with litigation if they were to leak such material are completely and unequivocally false."
yeah sure ok
posted by sallybrown at 3:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow, that Sally Cohn commentary is pure gold, among other things it is evidence that we are all living in a simulation - in this case The Office.

Her expression pretty much sums up this election.
posted by jeremias at 4:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [39 favorites]


So, are the Republicans trying to create a cozy connection between an alternate candidate, and a fast food breakfast? Is that the PR ploy, to plant that idea?
posted by Oyéah at 4:02 PM on October 10, 2016


Okay, confused Brit here - is that Shep Smith guy real, or a CGI construct?

Fox has been inhabiting the uncanny valley of news reporting vs "news" "reporting" for at least a decade, so a Max Headroom-type like Smith is sort of the ideal figurehead.
posted by rokusan at 4:02 PM on October 10, 2016


How is it that the endorsement of a former Attorney General is important?

In and of itself, it's not really. But it's sort of a first hairline crack in the dam. Could be that no one else joins in... but Utahn conservatives are PISSED OFF.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thank you, weird and awful election cycle, for bringing us the likes of Ana Navarro and Sally Kohn ❤
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump isn't very sporty either. He is the insecure guy who hangs around with jocks and brags about all the winners he's friends with but then is shocked when none of them come to his big party. I mean, that literally happened at the RNC. He doesn't know for sure what locker room talk sounds like, he just knows how he talks and that athletes have been stereotyped as all talking like he does. Besides "locker room talk" sounds classier to him than gutter talk.

If you never listen to anyone but yourself its easy to think that everyone else sounds exactly like you.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


I am really upset about the format of the debates. The election commission explicitly said that moderators were not to correct or press the candidates on the truth of what they say.... In any other election that would probably be fine but how do you have a debate with someone who only tells lies? Clinton is a pro and did the best she could but she shouldn't have had to say that Trump was lying about not supporting the invasion of Iraq or give up half her time to correcting him or defending herself against all of his incredibly baseless claims.

I'm obviously a supporter of Clinton so you could probably call me biased but I was pleased that the moderators did press Trump a few times. I think he got through the debate looking OK if you weren't paying much attention but there's a lot for the Clinton campaign to use against him.

The townhall format does have merit-the candidates have to look a real person in the eye and answer their question and I think that is valuable. I wish it had all been questions from the audience in the auditorium. I would have loved to hear why they were undecided. The questions from the internet were decent but it mostly seemed like the moderators wanted to have, say, a question about Clinton's emails and then found a random one on Facebook. They were smart though in picking two similar questions from the audience and social media- it allowed the moderators a chance to press the candidates a bit more on a couple topics and still mostly remain within the guidelines set out by the commission.

I do not understand why there needed to be a larger audience beyond the undecided questioners. They were unruly and distracting. That people cheered when Trump said he would put Hillary in jail... that was chilling. If the audience isn't supposed to applaud then why have an audience at all? (I suspect it's mostly because hosting a debate is expensive and the universities like to offer seats to high value constituents). And please just let the families watch on TV in a green room backstage!

Everything about this election is simply appalling. Clinton's doing her best to advance issues but whenever she gives a speech the 24-hour networks cut to an empty podium waiting for Trump to speak instead. Everyone involved in the political process needs to take some time to do some serious introspection on what went wrong in this campaign cycle.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 4:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


Jacqueline Alemany at CBS got hold of the RNC conference call this morning: "Priebus: Nothing has changed in our support for our nominee...I mean if there is any one thing that is our job to do it is to support the nominee that was clearly elected by more voters than any Reblicans in the history of our party and obviously moved on to get the nomination at the convention."

I believe their plan is to assume it is Friday morning and pretend the last few days literally never happened.
posted by zachlipton at 4:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


[Guys, I know this doesn't really belong here, but if you need any more reminders of the extreme Law and Order mentality this country leans toward, check out the video of actor Shailene Woodley being singled out for arrest as she was *leaving* a protest. Then remember - if this happens to a rich, famous white woman, imagine ...]
posted by NorthernLite at 4:09 PM on October 10, 2016


Welcome, TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln! It's good to have you here.
posted by stolyarova at 4:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yes, it's definitely what Trump imagines locker rooms must be like. Perhaps someday he can visit one and see for himself.
posted by vverse23 at 4:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


So, are the Republicans trying to create a cozy connection between an alternate candidate, and a fast food breakfast? Is that the PR ploy, to plant that idea?

Well then I hate to break it to them but I always go for the breakfast burrito.
posted by ckape at 4:11 PM on October 10, 2016


If porn wasn't so popular with the Mormons, I'd be tempted to believe the outrage coming out of Utah, especially since I've got family axes to grind wrt conservative dissonance (Southern Presbyterian pk waazaah).
So much false shame!
posted by bird internet at 4:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've been in a lot of male only environments too, some of them isolated places with criminal and gangster elements, and I would characterize Trumps comments more as prison than lockeroom talk, which I've heard plenty.

Prison talk has little or nothing to do with sex and everything to do with dominance. The sexual nature of the talk only enhances the threat of bodily violence to a perverse level of domination.

I think that was the gist of what Trump was doing here, not just asserting his dominance over woman in general but also over his male audience.
posted by angrybear at 4:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [71 favorites]


The goobergobs / Trump alt-right shitstain brigade have decided it's time to call up local GOP offices, demand they declare themselves for Trump, and if not, they're to be "exposed" and "purged as cucks".

popcorn.jpg
posted by holgate at 4:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


I just spent 7 straight hours behind the wheel listening to NPR, CNN, and MSNBC and heard virtually no mention of the women Trump dragged to the debate, not even to analyze his failed effort to change the narrative. Once I noticed it I really started keeping an ear out for it and nope, scarcely a word.
posted by HotToddy at 4:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Utah conservatives have been having a temper tantrum since an African American took office. It has never ceased. It has been one of the most difficult things to live through. Teaching in a state where you have to have parental permission slips to have the President of the United States in video in your classroom. That is not even the half of it, and the top of the bun is the never ending drumming up of hatred for Hillary Clinton. This all speaks to the element in the state that held on to old church values including denial of equality for African Americans, and of course, women. Now the state, of course cannot elect a woman to the highest office. Any white guy on radio can make a fortune in Utah on these two memes alone. There are a lot of people in Utah who are not conservative, and not conservative politically, a lot. I hope they get their vote up this time around. Though there are few more futile and depressing things, than being a Democrat in Utah. It was not always so.
posted by Oyéah at 4:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [32 favorites]


I will never understand the excuse of "it's only locker room talk". Okay, so you say you don't actually sexually assault women but you and your friends sit around making up lies about sexually assaulting women to entertain each other. Ah. I see. That's much better. Ugh.
posted by double bubble at 4:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'm really surprised at how narrowly folks are thinking about the locker room part of "locker room talk".
Folks, trump is not talking about the gym and he's not talking about MLB or NBA, or even the high school boys football team. Trump is talking about the locker room at the Golf Club. The exclusively male (and white, and wealthy) enclave of the powerful alphas who can say whatever they want about whomever they want because they are above the law.
Guys who chum around Trump care deeply about things like Trophy Wives and dating models and the objectification of women is a cultural norm for them so OF COURSE predatory language and the predatory behavior that follows has been normalized in those circles.
I wish one of the talking heads were smart enough to point this out to one of trump's sycophants.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [58 favorites]


Katy Tur at a Trump rally just now: At one point the entire stadium turns and yells at CNN in unison at the prompting of a speaker. Video to come when bandwidth allows.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


(I suspect it's mostly because hosting a debate is expensive and the universities like to offer seats to high value constituents)

Atlas Obscura may be able to help you with that one...
posted by foonly at 4:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been in a lot of male only environments too, some of them isolated places -Utah.
posted by Oyéah at 4:22 PM on October 10, 2016


(real sign) "Better to grab a p***y than to be one"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:23 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was just about to post that, melissasaurus. She has other scary reports from that same Trump rally.
posted by cashman at 4:23 PM on October 10, 2016


Ken Bone is still trending here, and much as I'm ready to leave him be, he seems to be having fun, so...

[KEN BONE]
Red-sweater Kenneth Bone
My name is Red-sweater Kenneth Bone
And there’s a million Twitter followers I don't have
But just you wait, just you wait...

[WOLF BLITZER]
When he was dressed his pants split, oh shit, clothes changing
Two minutes later, see Ken and his wife wardrobe rearranging
Pulling on a red cable knit, that will do the trick

[FULL COMPANY (whispering)]
And Kenneth was ready but the debate was sick

[RACHEL MADDOW]
Question after question, he was learning nothing new inside
Still undecided, electorally mystified
A voice saying
"Kenneth, you've got ask them for yourself"
He started writin' and polishin' a question for Cooper's shelf

[ANDERSON COOPER]
There would have been nothin’ left to do
For someone less astute
He woulda been mute sitting in that suit
Listening to candidates convolute
Started askin’, splaining’ bout his job at the power plant
Converting’ dirty coal, he's got that energy voter chant
Asking’ how to keep his job he depends on
Plannin’ for the future see him now as he stands on
The floor of the hall asking 'bout their plans
With clean fuel he can be a new man

[COMPANY]
With clean fuel he can be a new man--
With clean fuel he can be a new man--
Just you wait!

[CHRIS HAYES]
The memes are on the tubes now
See if you can spot 'em
A bit of ridicule
15 minutes of mayhem
The sweater made his rep
America'll soon forget him

[KEN BONE]
There’s a million Twitter followers I haven't earned
But just you wait!

[DONALD TRUMP]
What’s your name, man?

[COMPANY]
Red-sweater Kenneth Bone
posted by zachlipton at 4:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


Sally Kohn is also reporting from that rally, if you need another account to watch.
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Another Katy Tur tweet: A man aggressively yells at CNN reporter telling her she needs more makeup over and over. He's 4 feet from her as his wife laughs along.

Who does this?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [41 favorites]


Trump is talking about the locker room at the Golf Club. The exclusively male (and white, and wealthy) enclave of the powerful alphas who can say whatever they want about whomever they want because they are above the law.

This is weirdly conspiratorial - the notion that, essentially, the super rich are pathological. Do you think Bill Gates talks this way in private? Warren Buffet? Anderson Cooper? There have been lots of all-white-male spaces at different class levels for a long time - and given the lack of general accountability for bad behavior on the part of white men, surely some of that would have seeped through. Athletes are almost all super rich, and there has been push back saying that this isn’t the kind of thing they hear in their locker rooms.

Sometimes, a problem is tied to a gender’s member wanting to perform its worst aspects. It doesn’t need to be some universal class trait.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


From Gizmodo: Actually, Ken Bone Is Bad

links are not endorsements
posted by stolyarova at 4:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Better to grab a p***y than to be one"

It's funny that the person thought the letters "uss" were the offensive part of that sign.
posted by roll truck roll at 4:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


I mean honestly I still don't know exactly what to do about a guy like that - is there a good way to warn women to stay away from him?

The best thing to do about a guy like that is to let him know, unequivocally, that his gross violent rapey views are not welcome in your earshot, that you won't give him the cover of your own uncomfortable silence that he can interpret as agreement. Tell him to his face that you think his words are foul, that your presence is not a safe place for him to share them, and that you will be telling other people what you heard him say because you feel he is a threat to people's safety. Tell him that you don't know what he's doing, but that it's definitely not joking, because jokes are funny and this is not. And if he keeps doing it? You tell him he's not welcome any more.
posted by KathrynT at 4:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [81 favorites]


I knew 2016 was weird, but I didn't think I'd be going to a technology gadget blog to read a takedown of a man who became famous for wearing a sweater on the grounds that his question was kind of broad and vague and didn't focus enough on climate change.
posted by zachlipton at 4:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Trump is talking about the locker room at the Golf Club. The exclusively male (and white, and wealthy) enclave of the powerful alphas who can say whatever they want about whomever they want because they are above the law.

One of Trump's core insecurities is he has never been accepted by the WASP old money set. He has been blackballed from the truly "prestigious" clubs, and rejected from the social circles of people like the Bushes (which is partly what makes the Billy Bush video so schadenfreud-y). This is a waning (already-waned) elite that is vanishing fast, but it's a group Trump has been trying to enter all his life, and all his life he's failed because to them he's never been anything but trash (a repulsive label, but one he'd readily use against others). He doesn't know what happens in those particular locker rooms.
posted by sallybrown at 4:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


But a lot of the people who are cheering for god-emperor Trump are the people that, let's face it, do not have a very good civics education. If they did, they would understand that his promises are unAmerican and impossible. We've taken, for the most part, that kind of "rah rah America now here's the nerdery about it" out of the schools for a variety of reasons - like, I'm not saying it's a Liberal Conspiracy, some of those reasons are like, standardized testing is the new God, and some of the reasons are 'schools are underfunded' - and that hits red states as well as blue states.

raising taxes would help with school funding in many cases I'm just saying

I would be so happy if a mefite won the Trump Truck.

...So, here's an interesting fact.

I currently work for the International Rescue Committee.
Okay, I'm an office monkey in their headquarters, but I am one of 3 office monkeys processing things in support of the offices in all 45 of the countries in which they work. Including Syria.

Another thing I do puts me in regular colleague-level contact with the main procurement office, which is responsible for the ordering, delivering, and shipping and storage and distribution of a whole lot of stuff to far-flung places. Which means that we have to also have a lot of trucks to deliver it.

I am very, very tempted to enter this thing - for the sole reason that if I win, I will most likely be given some kind of an interview. And during that interview, I will inevitably be asked what I will do with the truck.

And then I would look directly into the camera and announce that I am donating it to the Syrian program where I work, because it is so desperately needed to assist the Syrian refugees that need our help every day. In fact, the truck is at the shop getting a paint job right now - but that plow at the front will be a good feature in pushing aside rubble from bombing from Russian attacks, so thanks! And then I will wink and say "and of course, since it is now MY truck, I get the tax write-off, so thanks for that too, Donnie!"

At which point I will probably be pulled bodily out of whatever studio I am in but I wouldn't care because everyone in my office would be turning to each other with jaws agape and my boss would finally burst out laughing and shriek, "ooooh, BUUUUUUUUUURN!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [113 favorites]


To be very honest, I have most definitely heard talk almost exactly like Trump's recorded language in actual real locker rooms. Vulgar, bragging of assaulting or wishing to assault women or their bodies, and so on. I don't remember participating in it, though I definitely didn't stand up to it either.

...probably because I was like eight years old, and very unsure how all the body parts that the sixth-graders were talking about even worked, let alone which you'd want to grab and for what reason. Also, I was terrified enough that I just wanted to get dressed quickly and get the hell out of there before they decided it was time to throw the younger kids into lockers for fun.

The thought that such boys might keep talking this way into adulthood never really occurred to me until Friday's video. Don't people grow out of gross violent childhood phases? I guess they all grew up into totally awesome bros, or something. Eek.
posted by rokusan at 4:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


A man aggressively yells at CNN reporter telling her she needs more makeup over and over.

Like Cosmo took human form.
posted by sallybrown at 4:35 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Who does this?

Assholes. Assholes do this.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


These reports of increasing aggression toward journalists at Trump rallies are terrifying. Do the journalists have any security? If the aggression turns violent, do the Secret Service agents have any responsibility to keep the peace, or is it just to protect the candidate? What if the candidate actually incites the violence?

What a horrifying time to live in, that I should ever have to ask that question.
posted by invincible summer at 4:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


And now Giuliani is making locker room jokes:
She's talking about the fact that when she was Secretary of State, she approved 20 percent of our uranium going to Russia, and she's attacking him about Russia and she sold 20 percent of our uranium to Russia. That is a disgrace!

Do you know how much money the Clinton's got for that? Over 100 million dollars in money for the Clinton Foundation. Boy that is as phony as, I can't say the word because I have to be nice. I might say it back in the locker room.
So to recap, RNC strategy is to pretend it never happened, while Trump campaign strategy is to laugh about it. Pathetic.
posted by zachlipton at 4:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


All I can hear is - Ken Bone, Ken Bone, Ken Dry Bone. Wear the wool of the Lord!

Meanwhile, the reports of tonight's Trump rally... when even Fox is comparing what he's saying to fascism, I really don't know what more's needed. Where's the man going to go in the next four weeks, now he's given up on anything but whipping up his core to ever greater frenzies?

Oh yeah, Trump TV. I understand test programming has already begun. [youtube, fake, but if you fancy a bit of broadcasting/cultural history]
posted by Devonian at 4:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Lauren Bush Lauren (not a typo) backs HRC, first of the extended Bush clan to do so publicly.
Lauren’s odd first name-last name combination comes from her marriage to David Lauren, the son of fashion designer Ralph Lauren. She is the daughter of Neil Bush, the fourth of six children of George H.W. and Barbara Bush.
posted by stolyarova at 4:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [38 favorites]


What's the story with Ford Madox Ford?
posted by thelonius at 4:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I agree that we shouldn't give Donald more credit than is due. I always saw Guliani as more the Wormtongue analogue, though. We might have to dig into The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales if we want to find something that is closer to Donald, I guess.

I'm going with either Celegorm or Curufin. The two are sons of Fëanor, sworn to their father's terrible oath to pursue their lost precious artifacts to the ends of the world and wage war on any being that dared to possess one. They fancy themselves as noble Elven lords, but engage in treachery, kidnapping of a woman with intent to force a marriage (one desiring it out of lust, the other more for political power), kinslaying, rabble-rousing, and at one point their servants leave children to starve in a forest.

Whether Celegorm, the lustful conqueror, or Curufin, who takes parting bowshots at the woman who shamed him, is more appropriate is left as an exercise for the reader.

/nerd
posted by delfin at 4:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Billy Bush" was bad enough, but the supposed existence of a Lauren Bush Lauren is proof that the simulation is crashing.
posted by gerryblog at 4:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [72 favorites]


What's the story with Ford Madox Ford?

Born Ford Madox Hueffer, but a hardcore Bernie supporter, if I read between the lines of The Good Soldier correctly.
posted by rokusan at 4:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mod note: Delightful though it is, probably the "what's the correct Tolkien comparison" debate should wait for another day, since this thread is already over 3000 comments.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


The crazy Trumper down the street has lots of different signs/flags/giant pics of Trump, all ideologically consistent so far and varying degrees of reprehensible.

Today he was flying his Confederate flag and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me? I'm totally bewildered.
posted by gerstle at 4:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


"Lock her up is right" Trump says when crowd starts the chant. - @KatyTurNBC

Are they still going to follow that up with "Nope that was a humorous joke, nothing to worry about."
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Billy Bush" was bad enough, but the supposed existence of a Lauren Bush Lauren is proof that the simulation is crashing.

Seems like a lot of family embarrassments are named Billy. Naming algorithm glitch?
posted by ctmf at 4:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


...and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me?

Shout out to Putin?
posted by zakur at 4:53 PM on October 10, 2016


Today he was flying his Confederate flag and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me? I'm totally bewildered.

I think a big part of the Trump love is "This is a thing liberals hate." That's my best guess - those two otherwise do not go together at all.
posted by corb at 4:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Today he was flying his Confederate flag and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me? I'm totally bewildered.

Basically a literal false flag operation.
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Confederate flag and also a Soviet flag -Narcissism knows no national boundary. Narcissist likes what narcissist likes.
posted by Oyéah at 4:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Eichenwald has a new story: Dear Vladimir Putin, I Am Not Sidney Blumenthal. Apparently Eichenwald's own words from a published article ended up being attributed to Blumenthal in a Sputnik story, later taken down, about the Wikileaks articles:
Of course, this might be seen as just an opportunity to laugh at the incompetence of the Russian hackers and government press—once they realized their error, Sputnik took the article down. But this is not funny at all. The Russians have been obtaining American emails and now are presenting complete misrepresentations of them—falsifying them—in hopes of setting off a cascade of events that might change the outcome of the presidential election. The big question, of course, is why are the Russians working so hard to damage Clinton and, in the process, aid Donald Trump. That is a topic for another time.

For now, though, Americans should be outraged. This totalitarian regime, engaged in what are arguably war crimes in Syria to protect their government puppet, is working to upend a democracy to the benefit of an American candidate who uttered positive comments just Sunday about the Kremlin's campaign on behalf of Bashar al-Assad. Trump’s arguments were an incomprehensible explication of the complex Syrian situation, which put him right on the side of the Iranians and Syrians who are fighting to preserve the government that is the primary conduit of weapons used against Israel.

So no, Mr. Putin, I’m not Sidney Blumenthal. And now that you have been exposed once again, get the hell out of our election.
posted by zachlipton at 4:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]




...and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me?

Stupids gonna stupid
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Katy Tur ‏@KatyTurNBC
At one point the entire stadium turns and yells at CNN in unison at the prompting of a speaker. Video to come when bandwidth allows.
I'm starting to get worried for the press who have been doing an incredible job on the trail.
posted by Talez at 4:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


I will never understand the excuse of "it's only locker room talk".

It's fundamentally a way to recast the comments from "Trump was bragging about criminal sexual assault" to "Trump used some bad language that has the liberals all worked up." Yeah, it's true that some (correction, way way too many) men walk a sociopathic line of extreme misogyny, especially in all-male environments, but bragging about sexual assault, like Trump was doing, is a very extreme form of the type. And, needless to say (ha ha, we need to keep saying it) something that really really underlines Trump's unfitness for office. He didn't use salty language; he openly admitted criminal assault without the least remorse or even recognition that women have any value beyond his transient desire. It's sickening.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


The crazy Trumper down the street...

I think you've got him figured out already.
posted by zakur at 4:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


And remember, the Soviet Union built a damn fine wall in Berlin.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


The thing to do about the dude who engages in rapey talk is to tell him it's not ok and that if he keeps it up, he's not welcome to hang out with you any more. And then go ahead and warn women about him. Say, "you probably want to steering clear of X; I heard him saying some rapey shit when no women were around."
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


Bizarre set of numbers popping up from Google Consumer Surveys (a B pollster, per 538). Highlights include Clinton up 1 in Kentucky and Indiana, up 3 in Missouri, up 9 in Kansas, and up 2 in Alaska; but down 2 in N. Carolina, 1 in Florida, and 4 in Ohio. Up 5 nationally. What?
posted by longtime_lurker at 5:01 PM on October 10, 2016


What's the story with Ford Madox Ford?

Born Ford Madox Hueffer, but a hardcore Bernie supporter, if I read between the lines of The Good Soldier correctly.

In other news, William Carlos Williams has apparently taken to twitter to make what detractors are calling a "non-apology apology" regarding allegations of a recent theft of produce.

When pressed for details, a spokesperson for Mr. Williams said "So much depends upon a red wheelbarrow glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens."
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump is back in full primary mode. He's going all-in with the proverbial white hot shrieking ball of hate.
posted by Talez at 5:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's Bill Carlos Bill, to his friends.
posted by uosuaq at 5:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [25 favorites]


"Though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed."

"It was the perfume from the dress, that made me so digress." TS Eliot
posted by Oyéah at 5:06 PM on October 10, 2016


Yeah, my husband says "trolls like to troll" and there is no further explanation. I assumed it was some sort of right wing thing I just wasn't understanding, but apparently not.

His worst so far is a shredded Mexican flag. I tell my kids to never ever ever ever EVER go near that house.
posted by gerstle at 5:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Google Consumer Surveys is a tracking poll, they ask the same people repeatedly. You'd want to compare the results to earlier versions of the same poll.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not quite sure I buy the Eichenwald story. Isn't the simplest explanation just incompetence? Someone at Sputnik was reading one of the leaked emails, thought that an article Blumenthal sent out was actually Blumenthal's own words, wrote a story based on on that misunderstanding, and deleted it after the blunder was pointed out? That doesn't mean Russia isn't trying to manipulate the election (by pushing out negative stories about Clinton if nothing else), but it seems like the most plausible sequence of events to me.
posted by zachlipton at 5:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is it possible to teach the grown-ass adults supporting this monster some empathy? Can we put them in a room with tiny kittens (and supervision duh) to see if they feel?
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I currently work for the International Rescue Committee.

HERE LET ME RUSH TO MAKE A THUNDERBIRDS JOKE IT WILL BE HILARIOUS AND SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER HEARD!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


And remember, the Soviet Union built a damn fine wall in Berlin.

"At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work."
posted by effbot at 5:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


For instance, the Google poll had Trump up in Florida a week ago by almost 8. Being up 1 this week means he's lost nearly 7 points of support there, by their methodology.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Katy Tur ‏@KatyTurNBC
CNN's camera is on. The reporter is doing a live shot right now. Trump is lying right now.
Oh and the polls are crooked now.
posted by Talez at 5:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Google Consumer Surveys is also a 50-state poll with very small sample sizes in smaller states (only 35 likely voters surveyed in WY, for example). So the margins of error on the individual states are very high, though when taking all 50 states together the errors should mostly cancel out.
posted by mbrubeck at 5:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump doubling down on the election will be stolen. He just said it may be stolen in Philadelphia, "and everybody knows what I'm talking about". And Kohn left the building shortly after. CNN may need to explore covering Klan Trump rallies via drone correspondents soon.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


So listening to an NPR segment, there was commentary from a rando Trump supporter (who is still onboard), and one line stuck with me from this guy:

"We need to make American great again, because we're the laughing stock of our enemies."

So my brain goes: Hmm. Who are our enemies? Are those the type of governments and societies we should be aspiring to become? Shouldn't we be more worried about being the laughing stock of our allies and first world countries? Speaking of which, what DO our allies think? Oh wait.. I live in an allied country. Everyone I meet here says "Why can't you just have 4 more years of Obama?".. But if we were to objectively measure the US against allies for quality of life, I think most other first world countries do have a leg up on health care, child care, city infrastructure, disaster prevention and relief..

Then I finally realized: Oh. This guy is just talking about Russia.. Ooooooh. They've doubled down so hard on Trump that they no longer question his Russia ties, but embrace them, and embrace authoritarian rule as some kind of macho way to fix the problems of democracy. Ohhhh shit....
posted by p3t3 at 5:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Woman wearing Bernie pin and this T-shirt

Wearing a Bernie pin and a shirt that says "Grab My Pussy I Dare You" at the Trump rally going on now. The bravest woman in Pennsylvania right now.
posted by Talez at 5:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [62 favorites]


Trump doubling down on the election will be stolen. He just said it may be stolen in Philadelphia, "and everybody knows what I'm talking about". And Kohn left the building shortly after. CNN may need to explore covering Klan Trump rallies via drone correspondents soon.

Tony Schwartz ‏@tonyschwartz 58m58 minutes ago You will know Trump has officially thrown in the towel when he resumes ranting about how this election was rigged. Won't be long now.
posted by sallybrown at 5:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


George Will: Donald Trump is the GOP’s chemotherapy
Today, however, Trump should stay atop the ticket, for four reasons. First, he will give the nation the pleasure of seeing him join the one cohort, of the many cohorts he disdains, that he most despises — “losers.” Second, by continuing to campaign in the spirit of St. Louis, he can remind the nation of the useful axiom that there is no such thing as rock bottom. Third, by persevering through Nov. 8 he can simplify the GOP’s quadrennial exercise of writing its post-campaign autopsy, which this year can be published Nov. 9 in one sentence: “Perhaps it is imprudent to nominate a venomous charlatan.” Fourth, Trump is the GOP’s chemotherapy, a nauseating but, if carried through to completion, perhaps a curative experience.
posted by homunculus at 5:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


Not all evangelicals are sticking with Trump because "the Clintons!" Here's one really impassioned counterpoint.

Trump and the Apostate Church: The Destruction of a Testimony
Men and women who I trust to pour God's Word into the heart of my children or care and nurture them in the nurseries of the churches, instead pours fuel on the cultural wars they declare to fight by declaring their unwavering support for a deviant because of..politics? All the while declaring with a Bible in one hand and a shaking fist, that "we must trust God!" Apparently, we can only trust Him so far - we have to throw our testimonies under the bus to avoid Hillary Clinton - because He definitely can't be trusted with that one.
posted by corb at 5:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


It was obviously coming, but in my books yesterday is the day things went fully & openly Cold War 2.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


How long until they go fully and openly World War 3?
posted by jferg at 5:21 PM on October 10, 2016


Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, let's please keep up the convention of [real] and [fake] tags even for things that seem obviously fake -- such is the world we find ourselves living in.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:21 PM on October 10, 2016 [44 favorites]


Rebecca traister just nailed it down on Chris Hayes. She said paraphrasing, there is a real feminist argument to have about Bill Clinton's sexual abuse of power. Donald Trump was not having that discussion by bringing Bill clinton's accusers to this event. He brought them there to sexually shame and humiliate her and we were made to participate in this humiliation.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [134 favorites]


"I am shocked the Intelligence community didn't foresee that @realDonaldTrump is going to willfully and flagrantly lie about briefing info" --@petergene

On the Rumsfeld scale, surely Trump's intelligence briefing going bad would be firmly in the "known knowns" camp, right?
posted by zachlipton at 5:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


That Sally Kohn - Betsy McCaughey video underscores something I didn't realize, that they're reframing outrage against Trump's enthusiasm for sexual assault as They're Imposing Political Correctness On Us.

It's a smart tactic and it'll work on not just the base but the ordinary, low-information white voter, who thinks it's the height of morality to stand up against interlopers (PoC, LGBTs, feminists) who've been trying to "fix" a system that ain't broke and causes no real damage (for the white, hetero, patriarchy-embracing voter, obviously).
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


> "'Lock her up is right' Trump says when crowd starts the chant."

> "At one point the entire stadium turns and yells at CNN in unison at the prompting of a speaker."

> "Trump doubling down on the election will be stolen. He just said it may be stolen in Philadelphia, 'and everybody knows what I'm talking about'."

God this is chilling.
posted by kyrademon at 5:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Does anyone know what this means? "@KatyTurNBC: Now he's reading the Snake. What's in his prompter?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:26 PM on October 10, 2016


Katy Tur @KatyTurNBC
Trump keeps coming back to trashing the media. Bringing up the same played out and baseless claims, like not showing the crowd.
Steve Brusk ‏@stevebruskCNN
It should be noted the networks have asked for a 'cuts' position at the Trump rallies, which would show the crowds, for several months.
Trump is a fucking liar, news at 11.
posted by Talez at 5:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump doubling down on the election will be stolen. He just said it may be stolen in Philadelphia, "and everybody knows what I'm talking about".

It's kind of weird that people are acting like this is a uniquely terrible thing that Trump is doing when the Clinton campaign and the Obama administration are doing their best to make it clear that if Clinton loses, it's because Russia rigged the election. Like, I literally heard on NPR this evening, "how terrible and unprecedented is it that Trump is telling everyone the election is rigged if he loses??" and not five minutes later they've got some pundit on talking about how great Russia is at "cyber" and that they are probably rigging the election.

The worst part is that this propagandizing is totally unnecessary. Trump is imploding right now.
posted by indubitable at 5:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can maybe like 8 Philadelphians volunteer to vote for Trump so that Clinton doesn't get 100% of the vote?
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 5:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does anyone know what this means? "@KatyTurNBC: Now he's reading the Snake. What's in his prompter?"

I thought that meant Trump is reading that same poem "the snake" (that the author's family has asked him not to read) and Tur is wondering what is on the teleprompter that he's supposed to be reading instead.
posted by cashman at 5:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


indubitable: Is that some of the false equivalence I've been hearing so much about? Because it sounds like the false equivalence I've been hearing so much about.
posted by Justinian at 5:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [80 favorites]


I'm stunned that Trump enjoying the three Bill accusers plus that poor fourth woman as a sort of human shield has barely been discussed in the post-debate spin. That act was so egregiously awful that it surely warrants some serious, prolonged condemnation. Trying to turn a presidential debate into the Morton Downey Jr show and exploiting four assaulted women to try and excuse his own misogyny are among the more awful things he done this year.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


It should be noted the networks have asked for a 'cuts' position at the Trump rallies, which would show the crowds, for several months.

Earnest question: I assume this is a standard thing that's provided for rallies? Is there any practical reason not to provide it?
posted by roll truck roll at 5:30 PM on October 10, 2016


Earnest question: I assume this is a standard thing that's provided for rallies? Is there any practical reason not to provide it?

Lying about crowd size and people waiting outside.
posted by Talez at 5:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Does anyone know what this means? "@KatyTurNBC: Now he's reading the Snake. What's in his prompter?"

Donald Trump likes to read "The Snake" at his rallies. The author's family wants him to stop.

Oscar Brown Jr.'s grandson, Sidakarav Dasa, first noticed Trump's use of "The Snake" in January and posted a long objection on his Facebook page. An excerpt: "I see you liked 'The Snake,' a poem and song written by my revolutionary grandfather, the late, great 'Grandpap of Rap,' Oscar Brown Jr. (who was recently honored by having a street named after him on Chicago's South Side, where he lived). It would have been nice if you credited him for his work, but I can see how telling your crowd that you were quoting a man who resigned from the Communist Party in 1956, declaring himself 'just too black to be red,' might be problematic."
posted by effbot at 5:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [49 favorites]


George Will: Donald Trump is the GOP’s chemotherapy

Makes you sick to your stomach, makes your hair fall out, makes you feel worse than the cancer does.
posted by mudpuppie at 5:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


He seems to read The Snake whenever he needs to retreat back to his halcyon primary days when he vanquished candidate after candidate. He stopped for a bit after the primaries, then started again after the Khan flap, the stopped for a while, and now it's back.
posted by sallybrown at 5:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


If they provided a second riser for cameras at rallies, Trump wouldn't be able to do his "silenced all my life" routine about how the cameras never show the crowd and how that makes the media terribly biased.
posted by zachlipton at 5:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


> "'Lock her up is right' Trump says when crowd starts the chant."

> "At one point the entire stadium turns and yells at CNN in unison at the prompting of a speaker."

> "Trump doubling down on the election will be stolen. He just said it may be stolen in Philadelphia, 'and everybody knows what I'm talking about'."

God this is chilling.

This guy has a real chance of causing electoral violence. How can he be stopped?
posted by Existential Dread at 5:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Earnest question: I assume this is a standard thing that's provided for rallies? Is there any practical reason not to provide it?

Concerns about crowd size? Perhaps the number of intellectual balls of fire sporting confederate battle flags?
posted by Mooski at 5:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


How long until they go fully and openly World War 3?

When that happens, there's not much else to do but kiss it all good bye
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:33 PM on October 10, 2016


I'm stunned that Trump enjoying the three Bill accusers plus that poor forth woman as a sort of human shield has barely been discussed in the post-debate spin.

I caught a few minutes of "Here and Now" (that NPR mid-day show), and that was definitely being discussed when I got where I was going and turned off the radio.

The Clinton spokeswoman on the show said that the rape accusation would be relevant if Bill were on the ticket, and the Trump spokesman actually said "He's at the top of the ticket"! Happily, since it was public radio and not Fox, the Clinton spokesman corrected him sharply.

I was, frankly, happy to turn off the radio.
posted by suelac at 5:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's kind of weird that people are acting like this is a uniquely terrible thing that Trump is doing when the Clinton campaign and the Obama administration are doing their best to make it clear that if Clinton loses, it's because Russia rigged the election.

Clinton is making a point about what seem to be Russian attempts to influence public opinion. They've been very clear that the actual voting will not be rigged. This is miles from insinuating there will be voting fraud by minorities.
posted by snofoam at 5:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [54 favorites]


Yeah, he lied once again about today's event, claiming that thousands of people were still waiting to get in. He's been called out about it several times by reporters, again.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


It'll be interesting to see what CNN does in reponse to these new media attacks and going all-in on "CNN sucks".
posted by Talez at 5:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there any practical reason not to provide it?

nuremberg flashbacks ...
posted by pyramid termite at 5:34 PM on October 10, 2016


If porn wasn't so popular with the Mormons, I'd be tempted to believe the outrage coming out of Utah, especially since I've got family axes to grind wrt conservative dissonance (Southern Presbyterian pk waazaah).
So much false shame!

I can't tell if this is to imply that people should be ashamed of porn, or if it's to imply that consuming porn means the consumer treats women like Trump does or even sympathizes with him on it, but either way I call bullshit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah, I doubt Russia will actually hack our election, if for nothing else, because that kind of thing tends to turn cold wars hot at a moment's notice.
posted by corb at 5:35 PM on October 10, 2016


It should be noted the networks have asked for a 'cuts' position at the Trump rallies, which would show the crowds, for several months.

That's actually out of Tip O'Neill's playbook. When C-SPAN first set up cameras in the House, he demanded they only showed the well, lest the public see how empty it often was. (That changed when the Republicans started to address absent pols as if they were there, and appeared unwilling to respond.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm not certain, but have we gone three debates without anybody mentioning Clinton's childcare plan, you know, one of her signature policy positions that could benefit millions of people?
posted by zachlipton at 5:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can maybe like 8 Philadelphians volunteer to vote for Trump so that Clinton doesn't get 100% of the vote?

That's not the issue at all. He will get votes here [unfortunately]. What these people don't understand is that Philadelphia is broken into tiny little voting districts. It is not that surprising that a district of several hundred African Americans would have zero votes for someone like Trump.
posted by nolnacs at 5:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


While a lot of porn out there is seeping with contempt for women, not all of it is.

And the participants in it are consenting.

Since this conversation needs to be about consent and not about 'lewd language' or tackiness or 'political correctness' what have you.
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


In which Oscar Brown Jr.'s daughter talks about how Trump shouldn't be reciting The Snake.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton is making a point about what seem to be Russian attempts to influence public opinion. They've been very clear that the actual voting will not be rigged.

No, surrogates are going out and talking about how the actual vote tabulating and reporting equipment will be hacked by Russian "cyber". It's directly calling the voting process into question... but only if they lose, of course.
posted by indubitable at 5:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton mentioned the eight million kids covered under the plan in the town hall debate.
posted by snofoam at 5:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


From the Chris Kluwe Vox article linked above:

Most guys respect women, some guys don't, but never have I heard anyone use your particularly disgusting brand of sadism that refers to women as objects and not people. Even the most debauched club-hopping party animal talks about women more civilly than you. We don't let each other talk like that about women, because it lessens our humanity, and even though we're modern-day gladiators, we still hold ourselves accountable to the idea of basic human decency.

Except, this...isn't true for a hell of a lot of men. While I appreciate Chris Kluwe and Grant Hill and all the other guys speaking out against "locker room talk", with all due respect, it makes me pretty uncomfortable. Because as a woman, this kind of vulgar, nasty violent (real or implicit talk) has been in the background of my life for my entire life. And I've seen lots of other women say the exact same thing just since last night. Just upthread, amnesia and magnets linked this article from the Guardian:

The good guys are also out in force, telling us they don’t speak about women like this and have never heard anything like it. They are forever respectful. Well respectfully, they should shut up and listen. I have heard men speak like this all my life. The idea that men are suddenly discovering misogyny because of Trump is somewhat strange. Where have they been?
...
The first time is when you realise that your body is up for grabs, that the sexual pleasure taken from it does not belong to you. Sex is something that is done to you, not done by you. And if it hurts, just grow to like the pain. This is the culture I grew up in, it’s the culture my daughters grow up in.

This absolute refusal to say misogyny involves all men because it is a system by which the abuse of women acts as a guarantor of masculinity is part of the problem. Women have to modify their behaviour. Walk home that way, don’t wear that, don’t answer back, don’t drink too much, don’t post that selfie, smile before you run for your life. Believe it’s not all men or your life would not be worth living.
...
Of course some women will continue to collude with these scumbags, they will vote for Trump, they will excuse him. Women are good at excusing men. If we weren’t, the human race would die out. Some women will look away, believing men can’t help it and carry on humouring the “banter”. You drop something in a restaurant and a guy says: “While you are down there love…” and you laugh because if you didn’t you might stick a fork in his eye. And you remember being 14 and being bruised from mere “groping” but thinking yourself lucky because the worst didn’t happen. You think about how you knew the practice of misogyny long before you heard the theory, so wonder how the good guys are slightly baffled by it.

Last night's Last Week Tonight With John Oliver covered the Billy Bush thing pretty extensively, culminating in a series of clips of shitty, misogynistic things Billy Bush has said over the years (and mentioned by tonycpsu, above). A guy I know said to me, "Jesus, who talks like that?" and I said "When have guys not talked like that?". And I totally get #notallmen and all that, but the Billy Bushes and Howard Sterns are pretty much mainstream people these days, and they have been for a long time. We're now aware of how terrible they sound, but these people and their attitudes have been doing their damage to women for my entire lifetime and longer. Through movies, books, TV, music, everything. Both actively and passively.

I get how much we want to denounce Trump, but I think that in rushing to do so by saying that this is not "locker room talk", and that good guys don't do this, we are at risk of unraveling the fragile progress I think we've made over the past few years in listening to women and believing women and letting women have a voice. What Trump said was terrible, but like so much of the other terrible stuff he has said and done, it didn't come out of nowhere. He just put it in plainer and blunter language than anyone with that kind of a platform ever has before. I understand it is an uncomfortable reality to face. But we should not lose sight of what we've been doing, which is to continue to listen to women's experiences of this kind of treatment from men that persists to this day - locker room or not - if we are to continue to make any kind of progress towards eradicating it.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [62 favorites]


Incursions into state voting systems have in fact been discovered.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Networks really need to cease covering Trump rallies.

On the contrary, I want more coverage. These things are the best GOTV tool the Democratic party has ever seen.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2016


No, surrogates are going out and talking about how the actual vote tabulating and reporting equipment will be hacked by Russian "cyber".

Link? Everything I've heard has involved registration databases and propaganda.
posted by ctmf at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Obama has been pretty clear on the issue. And at the risk of stating the obvious, there isn't a huge incentive for the frontrunner to undermine the validity of the results.
posted by snofoam at 5:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


You know what really bothers me?

Hitler didn't start with a win.

We all know Trump will lose. And maybe even go to jail! What we don't know is whether the "deplorables" will keep up being obsessed with their dear leader, and whether he will emerge in some time with a new, more powerful, far more terrifying white supremacist network.
posted by corb at 5:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [40 favorites]


No, surrogates are going out and talking about how the actual vote tabulating and reporting equipment will be hacked by Russian "cyber". It's directly calling the voting process into question... but only if they lose, of course.

....yea, you're gonna have to show your work there. You've made this claim repeatedly, and I call bullshit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


Incursions into state voting systems have in fact been discovered.

And even if we don't have enough evidence to tie them to the Kremlin, the idea that Putin would obey any sort of logic with regards to escalation from cyberattacks to conventional attacks is undermined by just about everything he's ever said and done as President of the Russian Federation. Dude just does Not. Give. A Fuck.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Incursions into state voting systems have in fact been discovered.

Voter records, not voting systems. (Which is bad enough.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Corb, what scares me even more than that is the idea that someone else will emerge with all of Trump's horrifying ideas, but with some actual skill at not looking like an offensive loon, and the people with the power will see him as a way to keep the base in line without all the icky bad optics that Trump brought to the case, and then our long national nightmare will begin.
posted by KathrynT at 5:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


No, surrogates are going out and talking about how the actual vote tabulating and reporting equipment will be hacked by Russian "cyber". It's directly calling the voting process into question... but only if they lose, of course.

Ok, I call bullshit. I've been glued to the TV for weeks and this does not match what I've seen. I don't usually do this but... CITATION NEEDED.
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


Are there pictures of the Trump-Putin flag that @David_Taube mentioned earlier today anywhere?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:44 PM on October 10, 2016


I'm hoping we make enough gains under a Clinton presidency, for all people, that they won't want to go back to stripping each other of good things.

Really hoping.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


To be clear, there absolutely has been coverage of Russian hacks and attempts to influence the election. There has been some concern from pundits, not surrogates, about the integrity of voting machines (usually shot down). There has been, so far as I can tell, virtually no concern whatsoever from Clinton surrogates about Russian hacking voter fraud.
posted by Justinian at 5:45 PM on October 10, 2016


No, surrogates are going out and talking about how the actual vote tabulating and reporting equipment will be hacked by Russian "cyber". It's directly calling the voting process into question... but only if they lose, of course

Cite? The NPR story I listened to had the author of a book about Russian hacking and "cyber warfare" specifically say that it would be all but impossible to hack the vote itself, but that they can (and have, in other countries) leak false information and create uncertainty and confusion about the results.

Are you doubting the official conclusions of the intelligence community and the executive branch that Russia is behind the various email and voter registration database hacks that have been documented this election season?
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


The fascism at the end of this rally is chilling.
posted by Talez at 5:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Networks really need to cease covering Trump rallies.

On the contrary, disinfect them with daylight. Do not let Trump go Full Buchanan and not have the public hear what he's actually saying.

And if you're somewhere where the hatred is flowing, stay safe but as Jello Biafra said, "don't hate the media, BECOME the media." The age of cameraphones and Periscope and Livestream offers a multitude of ways to expose hate in all its forms.
posted by delfin at 5:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Someone should tell George Will that chemo doesn't always work.

And much of it is palliative.
posted by Existential Dread at 5:50 PM on October 10, 2016


I have however had the experience of being part of a circle of guys where there was a peripheral/wannabe member of the circle whom we all knew "had a problem with women," because of the way he talked about them, we all thought he was kind of a piece of shit but - we did just kind of roll our eyes and try not to have to talk to him? I mean honestly I still don't know exactly what to do about a guy like that - is there a good way to warn women to stay away from him?

The same way you warned other men to stay away from him. which must have happened. no?

because you cannot warn women to do something you cannot be bothered to do yourself. There is no good way to do that. I would suggest, instead, supporting them next time this is an issue by doing what they have to do for safety or for principle. Leave the room instead of sitting in discomfort. Leave the group and find a new one, if the group won't follow you. Vocally contradict or overrule awful comments instead of averting your eyes and changing the subject. Refuse to be alone with him because he might be dangerous. Whatever you think a sensible woman would have to do in response to your imagined warning -- do that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [38 favorites]


I get how much we want to denounce Trump, but I think that in rushing to do so by saying that this is not “locker room talk”, and that good guys don't do this, we are at risk of unraveling the fragile progress I think we've made over the past few years in listening to women and believing women and letting women have a voice.

Speaking for myself, I think that hearing men deplore this sort of conversation as abnormal and abhorrent makes me feel like my kind of not-particularly-butch type is actually and has always been the norm and the sort of thing for which we should strive. Hearing it get countered that it actually is the norm for men to talk makes me feel like there’s a certain brand of feminism that would like to have there be a gender essentialism in which men are terrible. I’d like to think that I can listen and believe without also taking it as a given that something is ubiquitous. Especially given the size of the country - a lot of men can do something, and a lot of men can never do something. There’s a reason that percentages and surveys are valuable.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


"You have 29 days... to make every dream you ever dreamed for your country to come true. On November 8th the arrogance of Washington D.C. will come face to face with the righteous verdict of the American voter. We are going to smash the Washington establishment and open it up to each and every American the way it's supposed to be."
That scares the living fucking shit out of me.
posted by Talez at 5:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


There has been some concern from pundits, not surrogates, about the integrity of voting machines (usually shot down).

Yes and no. The purely electronic ones (Diebold et al) are very vulnerable, although I'd worry more about local threats there. Fortunately we've been moving back away from them. Unfortunately they're still around.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


One of my friends from high school went to that rally in Pennsylvania today, along with her husband. They live on the other side of the state; at minimum, they had a 4-5 hour drive each way. She was giddy upon their return. "The turnout was great! Donald Trump said we broke the record for turnout!"

This is someone who had been a continuous source of encouragement and good humor when I was studying for the (California) bar. I had always known her as a decent and kind woman. But I have no doubt that she and her husband joined in, joyfully, on the LOCK HER UP chants. I would like to think that they will not be driving to Philadelphia to "observe" at the polls. I would like to think it, but I don't.

This fucking election.
posted by bakerina at 5:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


Yeah, I doubt Russia will actually hack our election, if for nothing else, because that kind of thing tends to turn cold wars hot at a moment's notice.

Considering that it's nearing the centennial anniversary of when we actually invaded Russia in an attempt to determine the outcome of their civil war, and that we constantly intervene in the internal affairs of countries all over the world, I'm a bit skeptical that Russia would regard fiddling with a U.S. election as some sort of red line that must not be crossed.

(Though I can imagine it just being more trouble to carry out with limited risk of detection than it's actually worth.)
posted by XMLicious at 5:52 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


He was flying his Confederate flag and also a Soviet flag. Can anybody explain this to me? I'm totally bewildered.

Those two otherwise do not go together at all.

We're overthinking this. Dude just really likes red.
posted by rokusan at 5:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


One thing that gives me some hope is that, for all the talk about how Trump doesn't need the GOP's institutional support, what he does need is the votes of some "traditional" (non-alt-right) Republicans. Considering that even with Hillary's significant negatives, Trump seems to be very much on the outside looking in of the Presidential race [standard "it ain't over, please vote and get your friends and family to o the same, etc. disclaimer here]. That says to me that this is probably the high water mark -- that even in this perfect storm, the Presidency is probably out of reach for Trump or someone like him in terms of presentation.

And, quite honestly, the "fuck you all / burn it down" presentation is part of the appeal for some people, so while KathrynT's "but what if the next one is a competent unhinged asshole" theory does make some sense, I feel like any effort sanding off the rough edges may actually backfire by not tapping into the same fervor that Trump's managed to exploit. That's not to say the right mix of bad ideas and anodyne presentation couldn't be more successful, but there is some tension between the two that might help limit the damage for a national officeholder. The states is where it might get ugly, but probably no more ugly than the 2010 Tea Party wave was.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


For those still denying a Kremlin link, Trump just cited Kremlin propaganda directly.

Citations provided. This is how argument works here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [44 favorites]


We've had almost 20 years of regular old American operatives hacking voting machines and generally undermining any integrity electronic voting might otherwise have had.

We don't need Russia for this, and in a lot of ways, blaming them in advance worries me a lot more than any actual threat of them doing so. It's pre-scapegoating.
posted by rokusan at 5:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


They Eat Their Own Week continues (twitter)
posted by chaoticgood at 5:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Photo from Jennifer Jacobs (Bloomberg) of empty seats at the rally.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Shep's had some work done, I see.
posted by petebest at 5:56 PM on October 10, 2016


I know it's not really about my specific example - but to clarify about the specific example the guy I'm thinking of was one member of a large group that I had no direct power to eject him from. (And it wasn't that he ever actually admitted to rape or assault it's that he combined baselessly hostile language about women with an obsession with "getting laid" in a way that unsettled me then and makes me feel now like he was not above it). So "not hanging out with him anymore" was the *easy* solution for me and my friend (us being guys he was trying to impress somehow). I feel now like I failed by ducking out after picking up that a dude was a creep instead of, like, sharing my insider info that he was a creep. Because I'd still see him talking to women at parties, you know...
posted by atoxyl at 5:59 PM on October 10, 2016


That said, and actual voting machines aside, I've no doubt the Kremlin, China and probably North Korea have at least attempted to hack several US elections by now, and I'd be shocked if the US hadn't in turn been at least attempting to meddle in their internal politics, either. I mean, it's exactly what the CIA is all about, long before the Internet was around.

So I'm pretty sure we've all been doing exactly that for most of the last century. It's weird to me that we're suddenly talking about it as if it's shocking today. Hasn't there always been a sort of agreement between nations that they don't actually accuse each other of this, even though it's always going on?

#notkremlinapologist.
posted by rokusan at 6:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nancy O'Dell not Bell.

Right. She released a statement the following day: EXCLUSIVE: Nancy O'Dell Reacts to Donald Trump Recording
posted by Room 641-A at 6:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Epic @ananavarro take down of Trump surrogate on the topic of “sexual assault.” Moments ago on #cnn.

Fuck. Yes.
posted by Talez at 6:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [57 favorites]


I have now reached the point where I am asking myself, what next? Even if Clinton wins with long coattails in terms of a Democratic House and Senate, some of the narrative will be that this is not a mandate because the opposition was so inept and terrible. Which is fine in a sense, because a win is a win even if it adds up to a participation medal in the minds of some. But how can I, as an individual citizen, help us all heal from the trauma of these deep divides and the insanity that 76% of the Republican base are going after more traditional Conservatives over this diagusting subhuman? I do not want to live in a country where a blonde grandmother goes on tv and says that my party is waging a war over political correctness and that this violent othering rhetoric coming from her candidate is ok. I have no idea what can be done to fix this.
posted by xyzzy at 6:00 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes and no. The purely electronic ones (Diebold et al) are very vulnerable, although I'd worry more about local threats there. Fortunately we've been moving back away from them. Unfortunately they're still around.

Right, but you'd have to hack each individual voting machine. The number of machines you'd have to hack to influence the election in a non-obvious way would be massive. And they aren't connected to the internet.
posted by Justinian at 6:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Second, by continuing to campaign in the spirit of St. Louis, he can remind the nation of the useful axiom that there is no such thing as rock bottom.

Does this mean Trump will die of dysentery?
posted by srboisvert at 6:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


So I'm pretty sure we've all been doing exactly that for most of the last century. It's weird to me that we're suddenly talking about it as if it's shocking today. Hasn't there always been a sort of agreement between nations that they don't actually accuse each other of this, even though it's always going on?

Has there ever been such a clear link between a foreign government and a candidate parroting that government's preferred positions on the actual campaign trail? It's not just that Putin clearly has a preference, it's that Trump is openly accepting and encouraging the interference at the expense of national security and America's own foreign policy positions. That's what's new here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


The same way you warned other men to stay away from him. which must have happened. no?

It's one thing to say, "Watch that guy, he's a major league creep." when you're around. When you're not around...it's not like you can nail a warning sign to their head.

Vocally contradict or overrule awful comments instead of averting your eyes and changing the subject.

Having been there and done that, the general response to overt confrontation is escalation, not submission, until eventually they'll go off, you know, to seek the company of "real men". As srboisvert said, "People self sort."
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


T.D. Strange: The scary part is, a president is allowed to do that.
posted by ctmf at 6:06 PM on October 10, 2016


This election, yes, Justinian. To cheat such a landslide out of existence would be, I assume, obvious.

But hindsight shows that it's pretty likely a few very specific machines, tabulators, or something were hacked in 2000 and 2004, at the very least, and there's little reason to believe the people who did that aren't still around.

Knowing just which thumb to place on just which scale, though, is something that takes a very connected and informed manipulator, which doesn't seem to jive with the probably (?) foreign hack attempts they've been publicizing lately. Seems like a very different thing.

This is probably a digression, though. I'm no fan of e-voting in this country, but I doubt manipulation thereof will be a major factor in this specific election. It's just not the right scenario.
posted by rokusan at 6:06 PM on October 10, 2016


The number of machines you'd have to hack to influence the election in a non-obvious way would be massive. And they aren't connected to the internet.

Right, which is why I worried more about a local threat. Unfortunately, Trumpsters are very local.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The number of "real men" that accept this behavior will change the more this behavior is challenged.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


If you think there's actual Trump - Putin collusion, you're positing that Trump and his guys have the infosec chops to communicate with Putin without NSA (via GCHQ if they even give a shit about the figleaf anymore) intercepting. I doubt.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Does this mean Trump will die of dysentery?

Well he's sure as hell not making it to Oregon, anyway.
posted by rokusan at 6:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Right, but you'd have to hack each individual voting machine. The number of machines you'd have to hack to influence the election in a non-obvious way would be massive. And they aren't connected to the internet.

False.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think a big part of the Trump love is "This is a thing liberals hate."

The Trumpkins and assorted allied Trumpkins like to imagine that the US government (as it is presently constituted) is their enemy. Therefore, any enemy of the US government, be it Confederates, Nazis, Communists, Anarchists, Kluckers, what have you, is a friend of theirs. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to see someone waving an ISIL banner even while Trump was denouncing them.

I think the real question is if Trump will tell his people to take up arms before the election. That's the only shock he has left.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump likes to read "The Snake" at his rallies. The author's family wants him to stop.

Is it in the public domain? Because if it's copyrighted, "public performance" is one of the rights that's restricted - if he hasn't paid a license fee (if it's attached to the RIAA or other licensing org), or worked out a specific contract with the owner(s), he could be sued for up to $150,000 per unauthorized use.

Bit of research says it was written in 63 and recorded in 68; that would put it in public domain unless it was re-registered.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do people mind when I dump tweet after tweet into these threads during times of action?
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on October 10, 2016


Darryl Glenn [CO GOP Senate candidate] flip flops on Donald Trump, now praises him despite calling on him to drop out
Two days after he vowed not to vote for Donald Trump, Republican U.S. Senate candidate Darryl Glenn is retreating from his hard-line stance, saying he may still support the GOP nominee.
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump is Gamergate/Sad Puppy for President. He'll have his horrifying core of shits making the rest of us miserable; but that isn't going no to win him the election. To the contrary it is waking people up and driving them away from this nonsense.
posted by humanfont at 6:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


Do people mind when I dump tweet after tweet into these threads during times of action?

I don't mind.
posted by kingless at 6:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I doubt.

I don't. They'd be unable to do anything without causing a political shitstorm about the appearance of partisan influence. What happens if the FBI arrests Trump right now?

But it doesn't have to be symmetric or quid-pro-quo. Trump "joins" Putin the way people are committing crimes in the name of ISIS.
posted by ctmf at 6:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's starting. The Republicans are coming back already.

Everyone attack! Retreat! Attack! Retreat! What are you doing, GOP? Get back on your feet!
posted by zachlipton at 6:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


As Stephen Colbert famously proved with his "coordinating but not coordinating" SuperPAC dance, two parties need not have a secure channel over which to communicate in order to collude with each other.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Two days after he vowed not to vote for Donald Trump, Republican U.S. Senate candidate Darryl Glenn is retreating from his hard-line stance, saying he may still support the GOP nominee.

As my slightly foul-mouthed grandmother would say, "shit or get off the pot."
posted by chaoticgood at 6:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I believe it is possible for Russia to be influencing the election through communications and the release of hacked information without them directly altering vote totals or coordinating their efforts directly with the Trump campaign through some kind of secret backchannel.
posted by zachlipton at 6:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Do people mind when I dump tweet after tweet into these threads during times of action?

Just mark them as tweets. An @handle will do.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


What exactly could the NSA do to stop it? They work for the President, potentially, for Trump. And a public accusation would be potentially dangerous both for the Hilary campaign, and for maintaining law and order before the election. Obama might not risk that even if they had proof.

And there doesn't have to be direct communication between Trump and Putin when his campaign staff included Putin's man in Ukraine, and Trump himself openly invites Russian interference on national television. How hard would it to pass one time pads through staffers? I'm guessing not that hard.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding the sexual assault accusations: I expect that, if someone paying attention to legalities were speaking on behalf of Trump, they'd say that of course he wasn't admitting to sexual assault - he was talking about how, since he's so rich and famous, women found him desirable enough that they'd let him do things, in public, that they wouldn't allow other guys to do.

Trump would claim that he did nothing without consent - that the women wanted the attention he lavished on them, because they're all greed gold-diggers, or because they just wanted to be close to someone that famous and important.

After all, none of them fought him off. Or, they only put up a token resistance so everyone would know they weren't a "bad girl." He knew "what they really wanted."

I have no doubt he doesn't believe he assaulted any of the women he groped.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't mind.
posted by futz at 6:17 PM on October 10, 2016


This guy has a real chance of causing electoral violence. How can he be stopped?

The best time to start ignoring Trump was about six months ago. The second best time is today.

Seriously, if there's any enabling of awfulness happening this election, it's by the media, and most of us are complicit in giving him a bigger and bigger stage day after day, instead of laughing him back into the ridiculous margins where he belongs. He's a clown. An evil clown, maybe, but a clown regardless.

We keep talking about him. He grows. We take him seriously. He grows larger.

I mean, it's a pattern.
posted by rokusan at 6:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Everyone attack! Retreat! Attack! Retreat! What are you doing, GOP? Get back on your feet!

Can we get Lafayette as a moderator for the next debate?
posted by rokusan at 6:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


We keep talking about him. He grows. We take him seriously. He grows larger.


The best solution.
posted by zutalors! at 6:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Have any officials in Philadelphia (or other locations Trump cast suspicion to) made any remarks about his scaremongering, by the way? I'm kind of worried about us brushing this off until something actually happens on Election Day. Especially since Trump keeps bringing this up and fueling his rallies with this rhetoric.

I know no one is going to say "We'll bring our own good guys to watch the bad guys" so I'm not even sure what ideal extra precautions or security would look like. I just have this nebulous concern that people may actually be intimidated at the polls.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


pourmecoffee ‏@pourmecoffee 2 minutes ago
Trump isn't even taking the GOP furniture shopping.
posted by ctmf at 6:24 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


You know what really bothers me?

Hitler didn't start with a win.

We all know Trump will lose. And maybe even go to jail! What we don't know is whether the "deplorables" will keep up being obsessed with their dear leader, and whether he will emerge in some time with a new, more powerful, far more terrifying white supremacist network.

I have been thinking about this as well, and my thoughts lean toward being glad, perhaps, that the generation that fought WWII has not completely vanished, and are there to remind our youth of what they fought against. Just this kind of thing. I hope that they can do this. I hope that we can write the narrative, during Hillary's presidency, that we can indeed come together, and that forces like the alt-right will not prevail in this country. not now, not ever.
posted by OHenryPacey at 6:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


As my slightly foul-mouthed grandmother would say, "shit or get off the pot."

My grandmother liked to say that, too! She also liked "Hell's bells" and "Billy be damned."

We keep talking about him. He grows. We take him seriously. He grows larger.

Donald Trump is the Blob?
posted by octobersurprise at 6:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


My local Democratic Party is organizing poll watchers.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Plus Philly has that New Black Panther guy. We're covered.
posted by delfin at 6:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


it's not like you can nail a warning sign to their head.
The "Make America Great Again" hats do a fair job of that.

Do people mind when I dump tweet after tweet into these threads during times of action?
I, for one, prefer copy-and-paste to linking to Twitter and other parts of the internet that are more open sewer than firehose. And, yes, even the 'good guys' using Twitter are part of the problem.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


But hindsight shows that it's pretty likely a few very specific machines, tabulators, or something were hacked in 2000 and 2004, at the very least, and there's little reason to believe the people who did that aren't still around.

What is the factual source of this? I don't like to see it from the right when it's dressed up as "those people in Philadelphia," and I don't like to see it from the left when it's about evil corporate plotters or what you have you. Either way it weakens the belief in a fair electoral process.
posted by sallybrown at 6:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Seth: The Trump Tape and Debate Fallout: A Closer Look
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


ErisLordFreedom:

Is it in the public domain? Because if it's copyrighted, "public performance" is one of the rights that's restricted - if he hasn't paid a license fee (if it's attached to the RIAA or other licensing org), or worked out a specific contract with the owner(s), he could be sued for up to $150,000 per unauthorized use.

Bit of research says it was written in 63 and recorded in 68; that would put it in public domain unless it was re-registered.

Fair enough. There may be no legal leg to stand on - as a matter of principle, other things apply. Africa Brown (his daughter) said in the interview:

Yes, the American people would be the poor, tender woman. And he [Trump] would be the sly one that we would be taking in.

To quote from the song:

"You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I remember that Black Box Voting site about the Ohio voting machines. It seemed like paranoid ravings dressed up in statistical pseudo-analysis.
posted by Justinian at 6:33 PM on October 10, 2016


You know, Hillary should hold a rally in Oklahoma, just to announce Trump's done.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:34 PM on October 10, 2016


The Snake is amazing because it's Trump, unbeknownst to the GOP, his followers, and himself, saying "Listen closely, here is exactly how I will fuck you over."
posted by sallybrown at 6:35 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


George Will: Donald Trump is the GOP’s chemotherapy

What George Will doesn't note is that his decades of racist, xenophobic propaganda production were the radiation that caused the Trump cancer in the first place.
posted by Lyme Drop at 6:35 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


Wait, so who is the snake in the Trumpist's interpretation of that poem?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2016


Jailing Hillary!? Trump’s Outrageous Case for Dictatorship | The Closer with Keith Olbermann | GQ
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wait, so who is the snake in the Trumpist's interpretation of that poem?

Refugees, horrifically enough.
posted by sallybrown at 6:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Wow, that Sally Cohn commentary is pure gold, among other things it is evidence that we are all living in a simulation - in this case The Office.

Yeah, I just loved the condescending way the Trump spokesperson was all, "Now just let me finish . . . " to both Kohn and the anchor.

It didn't matter, though, because this was so far into "Oh, PLEASE proceed" territory it was really unbelievable. Like, nothing you could say in response could possibly be more damning than just letting her ramble on with more complete nonsense, lies, and evasions.

Politics has always been bad this way, of course, but it really does seem as though we have reached a new floor of despicability here, both from Trump himself and from his allies.
posted by flug at 6:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Refugees, horrifically enough.

The Woman is Hillary. Obv.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 PM on October 10, 2016


Newsweek's @kurteichenwald

I have written some really disturbing stories about Donald Trump. The one that is minutes away is even leaving my mouth agape.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Ha ha ha! Because Trumpists are trusting and kind. Of course.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:40 PM on October 10, 2016


My local Democratic Party is organizing poll watchers.

Yes, organizing them. Republicans do this too. As in recruiting them, training them, issuing written materials, providing a hotline of legal experts for them to call whenever they see anything they want to ask about, complying with local law for party election observers, asking people who don't conform to reasonable standards of behavior to leave, etc... Meanwhile, Trump is telling people to randomly drive over to Philadelphia and look out for fraud, with a wink wink "everybody knows what I’m talking about" that could not be any less of a dog whistle.
posted by zachlipton at 6:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


I remember that Black Box Voting site about the Ohio voting machines.

I can't help but wonder if there may not have been a grain of something in it in light of Karl Rove's epic meltdown on Fox News on election night in 2012, when he seemed absolutely 100% certain that Ohio was going to go for Romney and had to be told "no Karl, he lost, it's over"--someone of a conspiratorial mindset could view that as Rove being sure the fix was in but it being thwarted by too big a margin to plausibly steal.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Okay I'm seeing something in comments today that I haven't seen before. Threats that if Trump doesn't win there will be a 'Convention of States'. I googled and now know what it is. How likely is this to be able to happen in this current climate? Also nothing was really said about what exactly would happen at this convention only that it was to 'save the country blah blah'
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Minorities fought hard for the right to vote, I don't think they'll be as scared as people think of these Trump idiots.
posted by zutalors! at 6:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Snake is amazing because it's Trump, unbeknownst to the GOP, his followers, and himself, saying "Listen closely, here is exactly how I will fuck you over."

I don't if Trump is smart enough to grasp this irony, but, yes, this is the saddest/most hilarious thing. GOP, America, you knew he was a snake when you took him in.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hitler didn't start with a win.

I think this is giving Trump a bit too much credit.
posted by Flashman at 6:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Threats that if Trump doesn't win there will be a 'Convention of States'. I googled and now know what it is

Are they pulling for a constitutional convention with hopes of anointing god emperor cheeto?
posted by nathan_teske at 6:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


For those still unclear on The Snake: it is a parable about a woman (the U.S.) finding a snake (refugees in the fake Trump version; Trump in the real life version) dying on the side of the road and taking him to her bosom because he promises he won't hurt her; after she nurses the snake back to health, the snake bites and kills her. When she's like "WTF!", the snake is like "sorry, that's just the way I am, I'm a snake, you knew that when you helped me so you deserve it!"
posted by sallybrown at 6:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Threats that if Trump doesn't win there will be a 'Convention of States'.

This always comes up whenever wingnuts aren't getting what they want. Problem is it requires 33 states to go along, and that's not going to happen. These clowns could barely keep from poisoning their own water supply with shit when they took over that wildlife refuge, but we're supposed to fear their organizing prowess to change the Constitution?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


So you're saying The Snake is a parable about someone who bites women's breasts without consent? I assume this is just more projection too.
posted by zachlipton at 6:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Are they pulling for a constitutional convention with hopes of anointing god emperor cheeto?

No idea. It's just comments saying things 'Watch out you liberals, Trump loses and there will be Convention of States'. 'The Convention of States will save us all blah blah.'
posted by Jalliah at 6:47 PM on October 10, 2016


Two days after he vowed not to vote for Donald Trump, Republican U.S. Senate candidate Darryl Glenn is retreating from his hard-line stance, saying he may still support the GOP nominee.

Talk about "The blood of Númenor has thinned." Half a million Americans died in WWII fighting fascism, but the Republicans of the 21st century are actually having serious trouble offering up the paltry sacrifice of failing to endorse a fascist candidate.

Even when offered a smorgasbord of additional reasons beyond the fascism as excuses to not endorse him, on a silver platter. I can't decide which is worse, if the Republicans openly became the party of fascism or remained the party of we're-too-feeble-and-milquetoast-to-stop-fascism. Can we get corb as the next RNC chair so it's neither of those options?
posted by XMLicious at 6:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Eichenwald's bombshell seems to be related to Putin: he says it's an update on this story about Wikileaks and Sidney Blumenthal.

(Sidenote: I wish PPP would run a poll about who the electorate thinks Blumenthal is. Trump mentions him frequently in every debate in a completely confusing and incoherent way.)
posted by sallybrown at 6:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, these are the same jagoffs who believe that they can utter magic words and not have to pay taxes or obey speed limits. Just point, laugh, and move on.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Okay I'm seeing something in comments today that I haven't seen before. Threats that if Trump doesn't win there will be a 'Convention of States'. I googled and now know what it is. How likely is this to be able to happen in this current climate?

It will happen about ten minutes after the Red Lectroids land and give everyone free massages.
posted by delfin at 6:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


They work for the President, potentially, for Trump.

Given the power it has amassed over the last 15 years, you honestly think NSA works for anyone but itself at this point? Really?
posted by entropicamericana at 6:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can't imagine there are that many people who care al that much about Sidney Blumenthal one way or the other.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


So on this poll-watching thing, isn't this an official thing done by the elections people? In Canada ever candidate can appoint 2 scrutineers per polling place (not sure how it works for mobile polls). So you would have say 6-12 scrutineers at any polling place primarily watching for people being denied the right to vote. They also supervise the counting.

My polling place is in the basement of my building. I showed up to vote once without ID because I'd heard you don't need ID, but it turns out you don't NEED it, but if you don't have it, someone has to vouch for you (i.e sign something saying they know you and that you do live in the riding). One of the scrutineers was a neighbour who offered to vouch for me, but since any one person can only vouch for two people I went upstairs to get my ID just in case someone who didn't own any idea needed vouching. Not that it has to be a scrutineer who vouches for you, anybody who's a registered voter with ID can do it, but I figured the scrutineer would be there all afternoon and thus be an accessible vouch-er.

Anyway, yeah, these poll-watchers should be a normal thing all candidates have with a defined roll and rules and training that is standardized across parties/candidates.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones? I've been having decent luck either energizing religious GOP people against Trump or sometimes drawing someone into a message convo where I can work better posting them on facebook, but I'm a decade out of the church and I don't know the online protestant 'scene' at all, so I rely on people posting them here basically.

I can also say that there is a good number of women I know who are only preformatively supporting Trump to appease a jackass husband, or who are having serious doubts all of a sudden.

As utterly insane as it sounds, there are still people with only minor contact and consideration of the presidential campaign. As Trump gets more and more unhinged and is defending more and more egregious stuff at the same time as the election draws nearer and nearer, they'll start paying any attention at all and be shocked.
posted by neonrev at 6:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


If you think there's actual Trump - Putin collusion, you're positing that Trump and his guys have the infosec chops to communicate with Putin without NSA (via GCHQ if they even give a shit about the figleaf anymore) intercepting. I doubt.

What infosec? His friends and advisors are openly part of Putin's circle.

Carter Page for instance.
Yahoo reports that members of Congress were told that Page may have had contact or set up meetings with high-level Kremlin officials and may have discussed the possibility of the United States lifting sanctions on Russia if Trump becomes president. An unnamed senior law enforcement official confirmed to Yahoo, "It's being looked at."
Or Paul Manafort, of course, openly serving as Trump campaign manager until this came out...
Secret ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Donald Trump's campaign manager from the administration of former Ukrainian President Viktor F. Yanukovych, The New York Times reported Sunday. [...] Yanukovych was ousted from the presidency in February 2014 following months of violent protests, and eventually fled to Russia, where he was granted protection. Yanukovych's regime was characterized by widespread graft, and Transparency International in February branded the ex-leader "​as one of the most symbolic cases of grand corruption

But those are just the most egregious examples Here's a video "mapping" further links... Like Eric Trump saying "Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross section of a lot of our assets" and the Trump Org's business deals with the Agalarov family.

And the video doesn't include Michael Flynn, who spoke at the RNC...
"He has spent much of his time since retirement cozying up the Putin regime, and he’s a frequent guest on its English-language propaganda channel, RT (formerly known as Russia Today)." "On December 10 of last year, Flynn attended a dinner celebrating the tenth anniversary of RT, the cable network formerly called Russia Today. He sat at the head table, with Russian President Vladimir Putin, and had delivered a talk on his view of foreign affairs today beforehand."
And then there's Wendi Deng, Rupert Murdoch's ex-wife and a close friend of the Trump family (she introduced Ivanka to her husband.) Rumors that she's dating Vladimir Putin are unsubstantiated, but she does hang out on his friend's boat, so that's not a lot of degrees of separation, anyway.

Oh, yeah, and then there's this tweet from Trump in 2013... "Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?" [REAL goddamnit].

Trump openly tweaked the GOP platform to be more friendly to Russia at the convention. And he openly disagreed with Mike Pence, his own running mate, when he talked about reining in Russia in Syria. Openly.

He refuses to criticize Putin under any circumstances, invited Russia to hack his opponent's communications, and constantly praises Putin as a stronger leader than Obama.

This is not a secret conspiracy. Trump loves Putin and knows a lot of people in Putin's circle. Putin loves Trump and knows a lot of people in Trump's circle. They praise each other. They are simpatico. No need for one time pads if they want to coordinate their talking points either... Trump's advisors can read Putin's take on international events in the newspaper, and Trump can repeat it almost verbatim. And Putin doesn't really need to coordinate with Trump to try to get him elected.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [118 favorites]


To all the men here who are saying "I never talk like that, but what am I supposed to do about guys who do?" the answer is that we need to start calling them out on it. Next time you feel uncomfortable about something that another man is saying about women, you need to not just sit there, not redirect the conversation, not leave the room. You need to grab the mic and say, "That's gross. Stop." And when they tell you it was just a joke, that you're making a big deal out of nothing, that what they're doing is normal, you need to tell them "No, it's not a joke. It's not nothing. It's not normal. It's nasty and sexist. Stop." Don't let it go. Don't let it slide.

I know that doesn't sound very fun. It sounds hella uncomfortable. I've done it before—not every time I should have, I'm not claiming to be perfect—and it is uncomfortable. You might get laughed at. You might ruin someone's night. You might lose a friend. You might get fired. Those are all real possibilities, I'm not saying they aren't.

But this is way too important. The way this kind of "banter" normalizes misogyny, normalizes sexual assault, the way it makes a toxic brand of masculinity out to be the only "real" way to be a man—it's corrosive and horrible. That kind of talk enables and gives cover for abuse, assault, and rape. It perpetuates and worsens a deep, painful divide in our society that twists men into caricatures of lust and violence and forces women to live in near-constant fear.

We cannot leave the job of fixing this to women. They are not in a position to deal with it in the moment; it happens either in all-male settings or, worse, in settings where men hold the power of violence and coercion over the women who all too often find themselves on the receiving end of exactly the kind of language that we're talking about, and on the receiving end of the violence that this language enables and normalizes.

When men are silent, women pay. It is not enough for us to abstain from the behavior—we must confront it when we see it. Yes, you might be putting yourself in the line of fire, but think how unfair it is to let it pass for the sake of your own comfort, when you know that this language is part and parcel of a culture of dismissal, objectification, coercion, assault, and rape that women must deal with every day whether they like it or not. It is avoidable for us; it is not avoidable for them. If you believe that women are as human as you are, then you have a moral imperative to share some small part of that burden, to allow yourself to voluntarily be targeted by some fraction of what women endure just as a fact of existence.

When you're uncomfortable, speak up. Don't be uncomfortable and silent. Be unfomfortable and loud. Brothers, this is too important. We must take the next step. We must speak out. Even if you do not know what to say, say something. Even if you challenge it and are shouted down, at least it didn't go unchallenged—and next time, you will do better for the practice. Perseverence, courage, conviction—these are all traditional masculine virtues, though men can by no means claim a monopoly on them. There is no shame in failure, only in failing to try.

Remember, there are other men who are as uncomfortable with this as you are. There are many of us right in this thread. I am one. We can support each other in this! If you speak up, and I am there, I'll have your back! If you stand up and find yourself put down, you can come to me later for commiseration and comfort. In your silence, you are alone. In your outrage, you have allies! We can end this scourge. It will not be easy, or fun, or cost-free, but we can do it, and we must. For the sake of all of us—men and women both.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [102 favorites]


the Republicans of the 21st century are actually having serious trouble offering up the paltry sacrifice of failing to endorse a fascist candidate.

Well, now they get to factor in the possibility of going to jail if Trump wins. So there's that, in 2016.
posted by ctmf at 6:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think the anti Hillary forces have worked overtime to find her in a compromising, romantic situation. This is one reason they are so hell bent about her emails and all. They are gonna sift a whole coastline worth of grains of sand, to find something personal and embarrassing.
posted by Oyéah at 6:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's followers aren't "trusting" but they are incredibly gullible.

And Hitler was 45 when he gained power in Germany; Trump is 70 - this is his Last Chance at any kind of true success.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Both parties recruit lawyers and law students to poll watch in an official capacity. They get training and theoretically are there to ensure election laws are followed. That's quite different from asking your supporters, whoever they may be, to roll up on other communities and menace voters extralegally.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sorry for the alert. The Newsweek thing was yet another non-story about things nobody cares about.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones?

corb has posted some good stuff related to that in this thread and the one just before it, if you ctrl + f for her username. Searching around for things related to Beth Moore's recent tweets might also be helpful. And here is a long, well-argued blog post from a committed anti-choice woman about why Clinton is the better choice.
posted by sallybrown at 6:57 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


And yes, warn women off the men you hear talking like this, warn other men off them too, make them pariahs if they will not reform. But it starts with challenging them in the moment. That is the most important thing of all.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Eichenwald has updated his story, saying that the false attribution of his article's words to Blumenthal's email was only reported by Sputnik for a brief time before they took it down, but somehow made its way into Trump's mouth today:
This false story was only reported by the Russian controlled agency (a reference appeared in a Turkish publication, but it was nothing but a link to the Sputnik article). So how did Donald Trump end up advancing the same falsehood put out by Putin’s mouthpiece?

At a rally in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, Trump spoke while holding a document in his hand. He told the assembled crowd that it was an email from Blumenthal, whom he called “sleazy Sidney.”

“This just came out a little while ago,’’ Trump said. “I have to tell you this.” And then he read the words from my article.

“He’s now admitting they could have done something about Benghazi,’’ Trump said, dropping the document to the floor. “This just came out a little while ago.”

The crowd booed and chanted, “Lock her up!”

This is not funny. It is terrifying. The Russians engage in a sloppy disinformation effort and, before the day is out, the Republican nominee for president is standing on a stage reciting the manufactured story as truth. How did this happen? Who in the Trump campaign was feeding him falsehoods straight from the Kremlin?
posted by zachlipton at 6:58 PM on October 10, 2016 [104 favorites]


I think that the Russian infiltration of the GOP will be dealt with quietly and with great discression after Hillary wins the election. The Republicans had this problem with actual Nazi's back before the war.
posted by humanfont at 7:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't understand why Trump doesn't already live in Russia. Do they not make gloves for tiny hands?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Someday I want to know who convinced each of the non-Trump Republican candidates to run. If there would have only been a handful, he probably would have never made it out of the primaries.
posted by drezdn at 7:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sorry for the alert. The Newsweek thing was yet another non-story about things nobody cares about.

Is it? I thought the initial story was overhyped (by Eichenwald), but as I understand this, precisely two entities misattributed an out-of-context fragment of Eichenwald's Benghazi article from Newsweek to Blumenthal himself: Sputnik, the Russian-controlled news agency (which initially called the misattribution an "October surprise"), and Donald Trump.

That's not the scandal of the century, but it's weird.
posted by zachlipton at 7:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


The problem with Eichenwald's story is that it's too complicated to be explained in one sentence. Anyone with the ability to follow along is already voting for Clinton.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 7:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


To play Devil's Advocate, I think it's entirely possible that the story was published in Russia and then right-wingers in America saw it and spread it quickly enough that it got Trump's peoples' attention. We already know Trump pays attention to the right wing conspiracy sites.
posted by drezdn at 7:05 PM on October 10, 2016


Not that it's likely, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that Republicans get to 33 state legislatures in the near future.

That's to call a Constitutional Convention. Ratification of any proposed amendments still takes 3/4 of the states. Hopefully there's still 12 blue and/or sane states out there.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:06 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not that it's likely, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that Republicans get to 33 state legislatures in the near future. And I don't trust the Republicans to be able to keep a lid on the most deplorable demands of their base because, well, look around.

Your bad news is not news to me, and it's mitigated by the fact that most Republican legislators have big moneyed interests behind them that keep them from doing things that are hostile to big moneyed interests. It turns out that about 27 states have called for such a convention, but only if the only purpose of the convention is to pass a "balanced budget amendment." Of course, the legal theory that the convention could be opened but limited to a single topic is horseshit, meaning that if they did get to the 2/3 of states signing on, there would be a whole lot of amendments in play that would be hostile to the interests of Republicans and their big moneyed interests.

It's not immediately clear who would win if things escalated like this, but their desire to constrain the convention of states idea to a single issue they want to tackle suggests they're aware of the danger, which might scare away some of the more moderate states that may nonetheless have GOP-controlled state houses.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also getting 33 state legislatures to all play ball isn't a slam dunk. They're not all Oklahomas.
posted by delfin at 7:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones? I've been having decent luck either energizing religious GOP people against Trump or sometimes drawing someone into a message convo where I can work better posting them on facebook, but I'm a decade out of the church and I don't know the online protestant 'scene' at all, so I rely on people posting them here basically.

One that I haven't seen as much is that it is expressly unBiblical to cheat an employee or worker out of their rightful wages:

"Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work" (Jeremiah 22:13)

"Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning." (Leviticus 19:13)

"Pay them their wages each day before sunset, because they are poor and are counting on it. Otherwise they may cry to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin." (Deuteronomy 24:15)

And, perhaps most pointedly, "“So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty." (Malachi 3:5)
posted by KathrynT at 7:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [35 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnel is opening with a supercut of Trump's sniffles -- it's amazing.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh yeah, a bunch of states are going to get together and treasonously defy these United States.

Whut-everrrrrr
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


And gross to listen to. I noticed it in the last 2 debates.
posted by futz at 7:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Series of tweets from "Marybeth"
So let me get this straight: I, a conservative female, have spent years defending the Republican Party against claims of sexism. 1/

When I saw Republican men getting attacked I stood up for them. I came to their defense. I fought on their behalf. 2/

I fought on behalf of a movement I believed in. I fought on behalf of my principles while other women told me I hated my own sex. 3/

Not only charges of sexism, but I defended @marcorubio during Go8, I fought in my state to stop the @ScottWalker recall, etc...

Now some Trojan horse nationalist sexual predator invades the @GOP, eating it alive, and you cowards sit this one out? 5/

He treats women like dogs, and you go against everything I – and other female conservatives – said you were & back down like cowards. 6/

Get this straight: We don’t need you to stand up for us, YOU needed to stand up for us for YOU. For YOUR dignity. For YOUR reputation. 7/

Jeff Sessions says that he wouldn’t “characterize” Trump’s unauthorized groping of women as “assault.” Are you kidding me?! 8/

Others try to rebuke his comments, yet STILL choose to vote for a sexual predator - because let’s be honest, that’s what he is. 9/

"What he said is wrong, and the way he treats women is wrong, but it’s not wrong enough for me to not vote for him." Thanks, cowards. 10/

Various men in the movement are writing it off as normal, confirming every stereotype the left has thrown at them. So I'm done. 11/

I'm sooo done. If you can’t stand up for women & unendorse this piece of human garbage, you deserve every charge of sexism thrown at you. 12

I’m just one woman, you won’t even notice my lack of presence at rallies, fair booths, etc., You won’t really care that I’m offended 13/

by your silence, and your inability to take a stand. But one by one you’ll watch more women like me go, & you’ll watch men of 14/

ACTUAL character follow us out the door. And what you’ll be left with are the corrupt masses that foam at the mouth every time you step 15/

Outside the lines. Men who truly see women as lesser beings, & women without self-respect. & your “guiding faith” & "principles" will be 16/

Attached to them as well. And when it’s all said and done, all you’ll have left is the party The Left always accused you of being. Scum. 17/

CC: @SpeakerRyan @tedcruz @marcorubio @SpeakerRyan @Reince And every other tool refusing to unendorse this monster. 17/X
posted by sallybrown at 7:12 PM on October 10, 2016 [217 favorites]


Yeah I think there are plenty of Occam/Trump's Razor explanations that are not entirely unbelievable for this set of events, but the fact that a Russian propaganda effort is indistinguishable from a segment in Trump's rally is...disturbing.

To get the attribution wrong, you have to see this leaked email (link is to wikileaks) and somehow conclude it's all Blumenthal's words instead of a copy/paste of Eichenwald's 10,000 feature on Benghazi, despite the byline literally at the top of the email. That requires either intentionally misreading the email for the purpose of making Blumenthal and Clinton look bad, or astonishingly bad staff work.
posted by zachlipton at 7:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Whatever they put him on to ensure that he doesn't completely lose his shit during the debates is quite the expectorant.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Billy Bush has been bragging to NBC staff about the Trump tape since the Rio Olympics in August, according to Page Six.
posted by sallybrown at 7:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is great from the New York Times:
Paula Barche Rupnik, a Republican from Scottsdale, Ariz., was planning to vote for Senator John McCain in his re-election campaign this year. But she changed her mind this weekend, after he rescinded his support for Donald J. Trump.

Instead, she plans to split her ticket, voting for Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, but for Mr. McCain’s Democratic challenger, Representative Ann Kirkpatrick.
Wouldn't it be awesome if this becomes a trend? Trumpers voting for Democrats down ballot because they're mad at the Republicans?
posted by mmoncur at 7:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [45 favorites]


Speaking of the snake parable, Hunter S Thompson made use of it in discussing Bill Clinton's election in Better Than Sex.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


To all the men here who are saying "I never talk like that, but what am I supposed to do about guys who do?"

The problem isn't just with guys who "talk like that". That's only one of the more extreme manifestations of a general culture of misogyny and objectification that views women as existing to be ornamental and decorative and sexually attractive to men and irrelevant and without value if they aren't. It's a difference of degree but not kind from the sort of guy who thinks it's appropriate to go up to a stranger and say creepy things like "smile! you'd be much prettier if you smiled!" and to say things like "why isn't she wearing makeup? doesn't she care how she looks?" "why is she wearing so much makeup? is she trying to look like a whore?" "why is she wearing such baggy clothes, doesn't she care about herself?" "why are her clothes so tight, is she trying to look like a slut?" It's all the same thing, really. All of the horrified Republican men stepping forward to denounce Trump are no better than he is, and their own words show they don't really, deep down, regard women any differently than he does. Romney: "disrespectful to our women, our daughters"; Ryan: "women ought to be revered", etc. All the same mindset: women are property. Women are Other. Also pretty revealing that all of Trump's shocking comments about racial, ethnic, and religious minorities, the disabled, etc, could be shrugged off, but when it's white women he's talking about, that's suddenly serious; they only started caring when Trump announced that he feels free to violate another man's property, as they see it. So they're no better, and it's all part of the same deep-seated cultural ugliness.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [40 favorites]


Comic relief time with the Clinton campaign and Bill de Blasio
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:24 PM on October 10, 2016


Wouldn't it be awesome if this becomes a trend? Trumpers voting for Democrats down ballot because they're mad at the Republicans?

I suppose in this case it's a positive that they don't seem to understand how the government works. That as a protest they'll vote in people that most definitely will do things they don't want and have the power to do so if they get both houses is pretty funny.
posted by Jalliah at 7:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Huh. Looks like the revolution IS going to be televised, afterall.
posted by effluvia at 7:26 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Billy Bush has been bragging to NBC staff about the Trump tape since the Rio Olympics in August, according to Page Six.

*stir* *stir* *stir* (Original YT autoplaying video)
posted by maudlin at 7:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


At the Arizona Senate debate (twitter)
Q: Did you support Trump's finger on nuke button till this past wknd?
McCain: "I did -- because I was supporting the nominee of the party."
Bye bye, my friend.
posted by sallybrown at 7:30 PM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Blumenthal's name is frequently mentioned by Trump with an evil implication as a dog whistle because it sounds Jewish.

Precisely correct. You can practically hear the ((( ))) around Blumenthal's name as Trump says it.
posted by holborne at 7:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


OMG, folks, I spoke too soon. Over the weekend I posted about a neighbor who, a couple of weeks earlier, had put a hydraulic crane in his front yard, fastened a Trump sign to the bucket of the cherry-picker, and hoisted it high over the road I travel every day. On Saturday, after the whole videotape reveal, the sign had come down, and I interpreted it as a sign of remorse and reconsideration.

But. BUT. Not so, my friends; it was merely the lull for regrouping, before doubling down EVEN MORE obnoxiously than before. (If you can't read it [crappy photo] the newly elevated sign reads "Proud to be a TRUMP 'Deplorable'".)

Sweet jesus, now I'll have to drive past this piece of crap daily for the next few weeks. I am deeply chagrined, but also glad that I didn't act on my impulse to write up a "Hey, dude, glad you saw the light" note and stick it in his fence.
posted by Kat Allison at 7:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


Comic relief time with the Clinton campaign and Bill de Blasio

These wikileaks nothingburgers keep getting nothinger. Pretty soon we're going to be hearing that Hillary refused to participate in Harry Reid's Pampered Chef party on Facebook.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


To play Devil's Advocate, I think it's entirely possible that the story was published in Russia and then right-wingers in America saw it and spread it quickly enough that it got Trump's peoples' attention. We already know Trump pays attention to the right wing conspiracy sites.

That actually doesn't make it seem better. From Michele Bachmann to Rick Santorum (the California university system doesn't even teach American History!) to Mitt Romney, Republicans blithely repeating things from random internet sources that might serve their purposes has been a problem, and has contributed to the current ongoing vivisection-through-factlessness of the party by Trump.

Evidence that the Kremlin has been honing their skill at exploitation of this, to the point of having shortened the puppet strings down to two or three steps between them and Trump saying what they planted on stage, is extremely disturbing.

I've listened to the English-language podcasts of state news services from all over the world. Most of them seem like they're modeled on or have DNA in common with BBC World Service, but the bits I've heard from Radio Sputnik quite clearly stand out because they resemble American conservative talk radio instead.
posted by XMLicious at 7:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


@SopanDeb
In Wilkes-Barre, Trump cannot believe he is down in PA state polling: "Even the polls are crooked. I’m telling you."

Unskew!
posted by chris24 at 7:32 PM on October 10, 2016


If that Page Six story is true he's going to have some real problems with the whole Bush clan.
posted by humanfont at 7:32 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Breaking News: New Clinton Scandal: Hillary returns all her facebook invites as interested!
posted by drezdn at 7:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Billy Bush has been bragging to NBC staff about the Trump tape since the Rio Olympics in August, according to Page Six.

So from that article it becomes clear that NBC has suspended Bush not because of his gross behavior towards women (and one coworker in particular) but only because he didn't share something newsworthy with them and because female staff who have to work with the turd forced them to. Klassy as usual NBC.
posted by phearlez at 7:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Q: Did you support Trump's finger on nuke button till this past wknd?
McCain: "I did -- because I was supporting the nominee of the party."

I've heard enough politicians say some variant of "I had to put what was best for the country country ahead of my party" (whether true or not), but McCain is one of the few who keeps insisting "I put my party ahead of what I thought was best for the country" as if it's his biggest virtue.
posted by zachlipton at 7:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [25 favorites]


Kat Allison, doesn't that violate some kind of ordinance, hanging over the road like that?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


OMG, folks, I spoke too soon. Over the weekend I posted about a neighbor who, a couple of weeks earlier, had put a hydraulic crane in his front yard, fastened a Trump sign to the bucket of the cherry-picker, and hoisted it high over the road I travel every day. On Saturday, after the whole videotape reveal, the sign had come down, and I interpreted it as a sign of remorse and reconsideration.

Y'know, you could always contact your local municipal bylaw enforcement folks and check if dangling a crane over a local roadway without some sort of permit is legal...
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [72 favorites]


I've heard enough politicians say some variant of "I had to put what was best for the country country ahead of my party" (whether true or not), but McCain is one of the few who keeps insisting "I put my party ahead of what I thought was best for the country" as if it's his biggest virtue.

I fear that at this point, for a lot of people, their party has become their country.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


These wikileaks nothingburgers keep getting nothinger.

I said "comic relief," not "serious business." Refresh your mind a bit with a laugh at BDB!
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:39 PM on October 10, 2016


mandolin conspiracy and TWinbrook8 : Good point--will follow up.
posted by Kat Allison at 7:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Klassy as usual NBC.
I'm mildly surprised that their Comcast masters haven't moved to muffle some of the MSNBC voices (although Morning Joe appears to have gotten some memo), and the Saturday Night Live crew. Still, I would not be shocked - SHOCKED - if this turned out to be the TV institution's last season in its current form on its current network.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


sallybrown, that is a bone-chilling and laser-sharp synopsis of The Snake. May I repost it on Facebook? Do you wish to be credited, and if so, what are your preferences?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:42 PM on October 10, 2016


No credit needed, post away! ~~~~~>
posted by sallybrown at 7:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Huh. Looks like the revolution IS going to be televised, afterall.

You know, that reminds me. For this election, I think apps like Periscope and Snapchat, along with Twitter use, are going to be a great help with publicizing malfeasance by Trump voters who are determined to take his exhortations and fully play them out.

If you plan to be out and about and helping, I suggest prepping your phone and getting ready. Backing up files and clearing them off your phone to make room for images and videos. Downloading social media tools and getting used to using them and their features. And whether you're out there helping drive people to the polls, or just out and about, you can capture images and video of things you see happen in public spaces. And know how to share them and get information out there and get other people, law enforcement and other authorities involved where needed.

For instance, snapchat has a feature called a Story, and you can view other users stories. These typically are composed of images and short videos. Snapchat has used this feature themselves to have featured subjects with collections of videos that offer the view from multiple angles. For example, at the nba finals, you click one thing and watch in succession short videos shot by a player before the game, then from a fan courtside as the game starts, then from a fan in an upper deck seat as a basket is made, and so on.

So you could follow local leaders and other friends, family and local social media figures and click on each of their stories and likely see things that were happening at various polling places. That information can then be conveyed to local media and local authorities, who are also on social media in many cities and towns.

So if you needed an excuse to get that new phone, or to empty out those old videos or pictures clogging up your current phone, or your friends or family were telling you to check out these things, you've got one. Lets protect our right to vote.
posted by cashman at 7:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Chris Hayes and Rebecca Traister discuss the air of menace that hung over last night's debate.
posted by Talez at 7:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


To all the men here who are saying "I never talk like that, but what am I supposed to do about guys who do?" the answer is that we need to start calling them out on it.

Here. Let Adam Sandler be your guide.

Can you be more of a decent person than an Adam Sandler character? Ask yourself that the next time it comes up.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones?

Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I just ran across this article in WaPo: ‘Lecherous and worthless': Megachurch pastor from Trump’s own evangelical council denounces him:

“I have spent my life helping men get free from such disgusting commentary on women — even writing my doctoral dissertation on self-disclosure of sin among men. I cannot and will not offer help to a man who believes this kind of talk a minor error.”

That article links to this editorial published in Christianity Today: Speak Truth To Trump:

Indeed, there is hardly any public person in America today who has more exemplified the “earthly nature” (“flesh” in the King James and the literal Greek) that Paul urges the Colossians to shed: “sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry” (3:5). This is an incredibly apt summary of Trump’s life to date...

..He has given no evidence of humility or dependence on others, let alone on God his Maker and Judge. He wantonly celebrates strongmen and takes every opportunity to humiliate and demean the vulnerable. He shows no curiosity or capacity to learn. He is, in short, the very embodiment of what the Bible calls a fool.

Christian Post editorial: Donald Trump Is a Scam. Evangelical Voters Should Back Away:

Trump claims to be a Christian, yet says he has never asked for forgiveness.

While God, in His wondrous creativity, has drawn people to Himself through the saving grace of Jesus Christ in many different ways, there are certain non-negotiable actions needed to become a Christian: One must repent of their sins and follow Christ as Lord and Savior. Trump doesn't talk this way, even when urged to.

Further, his words and actions do not demonstrate the "fruit of the spirit."

Think Progress: Group of nearly 80 evangelical leaders publish letter condemning Trump

“We have to make it publicly clear that Mr. Trump’s racial and religious bigotry and treatment of women is morally unacceptable to us as evangelical Christians, as we attempt to model Jesus’ command to ‘love your neighbors as yourself.”
posted by triggerfinger at 7:47 PM on October 10, 2016 [33 favorites]


Kat Allison: After the city makes him take the crane down, then you leave the "glad you saw the light" note on his fence.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:50 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump

Anybody who needs a Christian argument against Trump isn't much of a Christian to begin with.
posted by Flashman at 7:51 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


> Chris Hayes and Rebecca Traister discuss the air of menace that hung over last night's debate.

I can't recommend this enough. Thank you, Talez.
posted by mochapickle at 7:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also getting 33 state legislatures to all play ball isn't a slam dunk. They're not all Oklahomas.
New York State has been dangling a state constitutional convention for the last decade and next year maybe possibly there might be a referendum potentially. I am having a tough time imagining 33+ states agreeing to screw around with the federal Constitution.
posted by xyzzy at 7:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm mildly surprised that their Comcast masters haven't moved to muffle some of the MSNBC voices (although Morning Joe appears to have gotten some memo), and the Saturday Night Live crew. Still, I would not be shocked - SHOCKED - if this turned out to be the TV institution's last season in its current form on its current network.

This seems overly conspiratorial/paranoid... let's not forget that the Simpsons and Family Guy have been ripping in to the right wing for decades whilst being given prime timeslots on Fox.
posted by modernnomad at 7:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Several comment deleted. Sorry, let's rewind and do this without a derail into joking about Tourette's.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump’s truest believers start to worry: ‘You could easily lose this election’
posted by Talez at 8:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Hayes and Rebecca Traister discuss the air of menace that hung over last night's debate.

Can't ever watch videos on the MSNBC (and only MSNBC) site for some reason*. Alt link/transcript?

* and not too interested in investigating that - good job MSNBC, whatever you're doing.
posted by ctmf at 8:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apparently Glenn Beck endorsed Hilary, top trending story on Brietbart. No link. Every little bit helps, I guess. Not sure how much sway he has in the alt-right at this point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Glenn Beck endorsed Hillary? I'll believe that when I see some kind of proof, because that seems hard to believe.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:03 PM on October 10, 2016


Glenn Beck's facebook endorsement. He says she can be controlled by a GOP congress, and Trump will destroy the world. I'll take it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Ok, he didn't endorse Hillary. He said that he'd seriously considered voting for her but wasn't going to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if he secretly does, though.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:05 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Glenn Beck endorsed Hillary? I'll believe that when I see some kind of proof, because that seems hard to believe.

Apparently true. Link to Facebook (Beck's facebook page), not to Breitbart because I would never.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:06 PM on October 10, 2016


Glenn Beck endorsed Hillary?

Not so hard to believe, P.J. O'Rourke endorsed Hillary. In May.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I caught the Vice News interview, he didn't endorse. He suggested he was so opposed to Trump that he'd almost vote for a woman.
posted by polyhedron at 8:08 PM on October 10, 2016


I haven't been able to comment until now but so

- When Hillary said we need Muslims to "be our eyes and ears on the front lines", I assumed she was talking about Muslim populations in foreign countries, which is what she was talking about a few seconds later.

- talking to some very nice Bernie Bros today, one of them was under the impression that Hillary was comparing herself to Lincoln and being all hubrisy doing so




i was phone banking today for a local Democrat and three different people told me I sucked at it
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


Can you be more of a decent person than an Adam Sandler character?

Every time I think the bar can get no lower...
posted by rokusan at 8:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


>Anybody that needs a Christian argument against Trump isn't much of a Christian to begin with.

Yeah, maybe, but anybody who can be talked down from supporting this nightmare, should be. And they're sure as hell not gonna listen to me, nor probably to you.

We got a whole country full of people who have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the ideas, not just that they are paying too much in taxes, but that taxation itself is bad, that government is bad, that wealth is how God indicates his approval, that poor people are poor because they don't want to work, that liberals are evil atheists who want to take the money that those rich people worked so hard for, and on and on. This may all sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me, but a lot of people's fundamental beliefs are built out of these bricks, and the bricks are not going to be taken from atop one another and laid aside because of some snarky chuckles that we enjoy among ourselves on this website. So if some serious Christians want to explain why serious Christians shouldn't and mustn't support this guy, I'm all for it.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


Trevor Noah is tearing into Trump and Billy Bush and it is glorious.
posted by TwoStride at 8:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ugh the Lincoln thing. I had to explain that to someone on Facebook today too. I blame journalists, if they would do the slightest bit of research, like actually reading her leaked emails, they would see that the Lincoln bit is directly from there.
posted by peacheater at 8:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Anybody that needs a Christian argument against Trump isn't much of a Christian to begin with.

Yes, this. I have a couple of friends who go to great lengths to try to make the Christian argument for Donald Trump, which inevitably can be reduced to Hillary is worse because reasons. I press, but they have yet to attempt putting forth an affirmative Christian argument in favor of Trump. They seem to have a massive blind spot obscuring what a Donald Trump presidency would do to this world, but are assured that Hillary in the White House would be apocalyptic. Decade after decade of conditioning have led them to this place in their lives.

In our conversations, we never get to considering the actual words and actions of Jesus and how they might impact their decision making process. I'm almost certainly apostate in their eyes, so I guess I don't bother going there. I gave up evangelicalism decades ago, but you can't read the Bible thrice through and not walk away unaffected. I may not know much, but Trumpism is as unaligned with the spirit of Christ as you can possibly get. But they won't hear it. However, many evangelicals do, and I'm heartened to read more and more rebuttals and refutations from them.

This is a momentous period for American evangelicalism. I've never seen such soul-searching and internal conflict in that world. Some will slide into the hatred of Trumpism. Some will fight their way out and remain conservative, but will have to come to terms with the fact that their majority status is gone forever except in certain geographic areas. And some will come to embrace a more open and progressive faith. But that will be years from now, after the insanity of this election is in the rear view mirror.
posted by vverse23 at 8:17 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


There's a Twitter account @crimeaday that simply posts one thing that it is illegal (federally) to do every day. Their entry for yesterday:
42 USC §6928 & 40 CFR §257.3–7(a) make it a federal crime to start an uncontrolled toxic garbage fire. #debate
posted by zachlipton at 8:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [58 favorites]


I wore my "I'm With Her" shirt today. Reactions included:

- Bro nod and smile from another chubby white dude who had Clinton/Kaine buttons on his backpack. (Was he me from the future?)

- Guy yelling at me in a downtown plaza: "You're with her? Where is she? Is she in your pocket? You got some padding!" (I'm not sure he recognized the slogan)

- Smile from little girl on the sidewalk who happened to be picking her nose quite enthusiastically at that exact moment. (She may have just been happy about her harvest)
posted by arcolz at 8:20 PM on October 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


Okay:

If, like me, you need a bit of a breather from the Trumpian hideous-cy, I strongly recommend strolling back down the specific part of Memory Lane when Trump went to Scotland right after Brexit, and made some comments that pissed off his Scottish observers. Because - Divine Wino had a point about four years ago now that angry Scots are to be admired, because "they've sat down, gave it a good think, kicked it around a bit and decided, on balance, everyone can throw their own ass up in the air and fuck at it."

So - here is a list of tweets full of fantastically baroque insults from Scots in response to Trump's praise of Brexit, and here is a segment on Samantha Bee's show about the incident where she had David Tennant read some of those tweets so we could hear them properly. I just sampled both and feel much better now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:21 PM on October 10, 2016 [41 favorites]


All you people wearing HRC gear in hostile places, including Trump rallies! I salute you from the diversier parts of NYC, where I hear people discussing how excited they are to vote HRC just walking home from work.
posted by zutalors! at 8:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


everyone can throw their own ass up in the air and fuck at it

I did not know I needed this in my life
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


Ask him to tell them that women are people, not sex dispensers? Ask him to get together with his fellow silent eye-rollers to float the idea of shutting that shit down?

(Apologies for late reply, I've been Actually Doing Stuff the last two days.)

Yeah, for one thing, he said most of the stuff he could think of was pretty far in the past, so probably more of an adolescent male environment. On the other hand, I have to accept that just because he's a man doesn't mean that he necessarily feels safe to confront some macho asshole at a particular time. I don't think he's talking about anyone he would really consider a friend, as that's a pretty limited group, but more some dude who happens to be around for some reason. And I know he's hesitant to get into confrontations because he's a skinny, nerdy guy and he's got trauma issues from having been beat up several times in the past.

So yeah, on the one hand, I feel like saying "why would you let something like that just slide and not say something" and on the other hand I don't think it's really fair to make this like something to be made at HIM about.

I think the fact is that these kinds of assholes make things kinda shitty for everyone, although much more so for women. But they can be a threat to anyone who doesn't conform. And unless/until there's enough focus on why this is a big problem and Not Cool that most men feel that if they speak up the other guys around are going to have their backs, then we probably won't see it happening any less.

So yeah, speaking up is a good thing, and a necessary thing, but I also think it's a pretty human thing to be afraid to do so. But I think this is a conversation that guys need to be having with guys, that hey, if some guy is saying some fucked up shit we should shut him down, because maybe he's not full of shit, maybe he's out there assaulting women and thinks it's totally ok with everyone.

/this has been a Mefi Therapy Session
posted by threeturtles at 8:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I had another phone-banking session at the Pittsburgh headquarters today, this time calling Hillary supporters and asking them to commit to volunteering this week. I would like to say to all of the Mefites out there that if you are determined to keep Trump out of the Whitehouse and help Clinton this is the time to do something about it. I talked to about a dozen people who were interested in driving people to the polls on election day, but were not interested in doing something this week. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of volunteers on election day, but help is needed today.

We need you now, especially here in Pennsylvania, because accusations of a rigged system and unsubstantiated voter fraud are already making this situation less certain. The Pennsylvania voting system is not set up very well to prevent abuse. In 2004, University of Pittsburgh students stood in line for hours because Republican poll watchers challenged anyone who looked like a student. To compare, I voted in 10 minutes that day in my precinct 1 mile to the south. Trump needs to lose and lose in a landslide so big that there will be no denying it.

So please, come out and help. Right now the campaign needs people who are able bodied to canvas during the upcoming weekend. You will not have to go alone and will probably make a friend. Also, Spanish speakers are needed for Latino outreach.

My favorite person I called today was a woman who was recovering from a stroke. She'd already tried to volunteer. Her vision is compromised, so she had a friend help her call supporters by blowing up a list of phone numbers large enough so that she could see. She was so sad because her vision was so bad that she couldn't make more that a few calls. I am awed by her determination to help.
posted by Alison at 8:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [78 favorites]


Series of tweets from "Marybeth"
So let me get this straight: I, a conservative female, have spent years defending the Republican Party against claims of sexism. 1/
 I wonder if there are other claims she's ignored and this will cause her to re-evaluate those as well? Probably too soon.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:37 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Holy crap y'all, I've been rereading the thread where "throw your own ass up in the air" was coined, and even there - someone mentioned the 2011 Documentary about Trump building his golf course in Scotland and apparently pissing everyone off in the process.

I swear I didn't know about that when I went to go look at that list of Tweets and now it is even better, and I now have a third thing to add to my weekend Netflix queue (after A Face In The Crowd and The Contender).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:37 PM on October 10, 2016


NYT: For Many Women, Trump’s ‘Locker Room Talk’ Brings Memories of Abuse. Discusses Kelly Oxford's tweet sharing her story and the many, many stories that followed:
Amy Richards, a co-founder of the Third Wave Foundation, a group for young feminists, said that many sexual abuse victims who unburdened themselves after Mr. Trump’s video did not want his comments to be seen as anomalous. “Some of it was so that we automatically didn’t go to this place of having this one instance be an exception and therefore more excusable,” she said. “Yes, this is women speaking up, but it’s speaking up to all of the Donald Trumps in our lives.”

And there appear to be many.

“Grabbed from behind on the street. Thought it was my fault because I was wearing a dress,” Lynne Boschee, 50, of Phoenix, wrote on Twitter. “Never told anyone. I was 14.”
posted by zachlipton at 8:39 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


We can always count on Scotland, Empress...

I hate Trump and everything he stands for. Whispy-haired, leather faced, bawbag-eyed fuck bumper. He can take his golf course to fuck.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


So this insanity happened (facebook)

Glenn Beck: standing against Trump is the moral, ethical choice.
posted by Tarumba at 8:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


I've heard enough politicians say some variant of "I had to put what was best for the country country ahead of my party" (whether true or not), but McCain is one of the few who keeps insisting "I put my party ahead of what I thought was best for the country" as if it's his biggest virtue.

In accepting the VP slot, Mike Pence famously described himself as a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order. That puts American at best fourth, depending on how he feels about father, husband, son, human, Earthling, etc.
posted by ckape at 8:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


I have however had the experience of being part of a circle of guys where there was a peripheral/wannabe member of the circle whom we all knew "had a problem with women," because of the way he talked about them, we all thought he was kind of a piece of shit but - we did just kind of roll our eyes and try not to have to talk to him? I mean honestly I still don't know exactly what to do about a guy like that - is there a good way to warn women to stay away from him?

Guys like this - people like this in general - tend to operate like The Missing Stair. People try to work around them. However, in the specific case you cite - they want to join your group - you have an immense amount of power to recalibrate their view of women by directly confronting them and saying that what they say and do is not ok.

People who say fucked up shit think that when you roll your eyes that you're agreeing with them but too "PC" to say so. Let that realization motivate your choices - you may assume they don't mean it, but they assume you agree with them.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hillary has rallies scheduled now on Wednesday in Pueblo, Colorado, and Las Vegas, Nevada.
posted by cashman at 8:50 PM on October 10, 2016


NYT: For Many Women, Trump’s ‘Locker Room Talk’ Brings Memories of Abuse.

I am saddened that this had to come up, but at the same time, I am so glad that this is being discussed, given the context and nature of the language and what it implies. I am a man who has PTSD from abuse as a child by my father, and from the beginning of Donald's campaign, he always made my abuser-radar ping so loudly I could hardly pay attention, and it's only gotten worse. I can't even imagine what so many women are going through right now, if it is this difficult for me. He's literally causing harm to millions of people who have already endured more than enough suffering.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [36 favorites]


So yeah, speaking up is a good thing, and a necessary thing, but I also think it's a pretty human thing to be afraid to do so. But I think this is a conversation that guys need to be having with guys, that hey, if some guy is saying some fucked up shit we should shut him down, because maybe he's not full of shit, maybe he's out there assaulting women and thinks it's totally ok with everyone.

Exactly this. Let's have that conversation. Let's start by having that conversation with all our guy friends who we are pretty sure are uncomfortable with this shit but who might not know that we have their backs on it. Let them know that we have their backs. The Billy Bush video is a perfect opener for that conversation.

I'm having that conversation with all of everyone here, right now. I'm having it on my Facebook feed, have been for days. I'm having it with my family and friends. Everywhere that I feel safe to do it, I'm making it known that I abhor that kind of language and behavior, that I strongly support men calling each other out on it, that I intend to call my fellow men out on it at every opportunity, and that I will stand with other men who do the same.

I don't know any of you here in person, but I like to think that I've shared space with some of you in the past, albeit unknowingly. Maybe next time you feel like you should speak up against virulent misogyny, I will be there to stand with you. Will you stand with me? Will we stand with each other against this foulness?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


Carter Page for instance.

I think Julia Ioffe's piece on Page hinted as clearly as you can hint that Page is already a deep-cover operative for somebody.

Anyway, I think there's reason for the press pack following Trump to take a day off and say that since the campaign can't guarantee their safety -- in fact, encourages threats and abuse -- then fuck it. Also, not paying the bill for the plane. If that's a problem, see you fuckers in court, because you know you like that.
posted by holgate at 8:56 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


After watching Hardball and thinking about the media environment that Trump came up in, and rewatching Jon Stewart's Crossfire interview I've come to the conclusion that Chris Matthews has turned into a national embarrassment. He's a national embarrassment of a TV host. He's a national embarrassment of a facilitator of discussion. He facilitates partisan hackery. The man should not be let anywhere near a panel along with 90% of the political commentators on TV.
posted by Talez at 9:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Speaking of insanities that are just new-normal in Election 2016: Man wearing Bill Clinton 'Rape' Shirt Escorted Out of [Clinton] Rally
posted by rokusan at 9:07 PM on October 10, 2016


NYT: For Many Women, Trump’s ‘Locker Room Talk’ Brings Memories of Abuse.

The most commonly cited statistic is that 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual violence. I think, though, if you went around and tried to find a woman who has never been groped, grabbed, unwillingly kissed, pressed up against against her will, had a stranger expose himself to her, or the like, it would be difficult. If someone asked me if I've ever been sexually assaulted, I would have said no before this incident, even though all of the above things have happened to me, in some cases many times. We're just so conditioned to think of it as normal.
posted by sallybrown at 9:08 PM on October 10, 2016 [52 favorites]


He's literally causing harm to millions of people who have already endured more than enough suffering.

Yeah, this morning I heard a radio DJ and his co-host trying to defend Trump's bullshit by energetically pushing the "locker room talk" bullshit. Stuff about how "you weren't meant to hear it" and "we all say ugly things sometimes." It made me furious, because no, this isn't ugly talk -- this is boasting about sexual assault.

Normally I don't listen to the morning radio guy on this station, 'cause he's a habitual sexist whiner, but I about came unglued in the car (and later fired off an angry email to the station, for whatever that's worth). I've never suffered anything like this kind of abuse. I can't imagine what it's like for people who've dealt with this shit...like, y'know, practically all the women in America.

We keep saying, "When a woman says she was raped, we should believe her."
We need to add, "When a man brags about sexual assault, we should ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE HIM."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [82 favorites]


Chris Matthews isn't perfect but he asked Trump if there should be punishment for a woman getting an abortion 12 times before he got the answer that we now know, "there has to be some punishment for the woman" that the campaign had to walk back.

I think he has flaws but I do feel like we still need an arrogant old white guy on our side, and he's that.
posted by zutalors! at 9:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones?

Isn't he pretty well done by the time you even get out of the 10 commandments?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:09 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Pennsylvania voting system is not set up very well to prevent abuse. In 2004, University of Pittsburgh students stood in line for hours because Republican poll watchers challenged anyone who looked like a student.

If folks see something like this happening, what's the most useful response?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chris Matthews ain't all bad.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:10 PM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I was 13 years old, walking to school on an icy sidewalk in my school uniform (before they allowed pants as part of the uniform). It was seven in the morning, it was just before Christmas, 1983.

An old man, who clearly had been up drinking the whole night easily caught up to me with his snow boots - my uniform shoes had no traction. He was visibly dirty, covered in grease and grime, with black crud underneath his fingernails. His boozy breath was up right in my face; I tried to go faster without losing my balance and falling over. He started the (familiar to me at 13) talking, stumbling over the 'can I walk with you, you little school girl, yeah that's right, you like me' speech.

Then he reached his hand up under my skirt, shoved my underwear aside and put his hand inside my vagina. He stood there as I cried and told me how much I liked it. I slowly crept towards a convenience store parking lot, with his hand still inside my vagina. As I crossed into the salted parking lot I broke free in a run. He stood in place. I cried and begged the clerk to call the police. He wouldn't do it and kept telling me to get out of the store unless I was buying something.

The man eventually wandered away and I went out and walked to school, late, given detention.

After I was raped last summer, I asked my mom, at my therapist's behest, whether I told her and my dad at the time. She was stunned. No. I hadn't.

This was the second of three sexual assaults I went through as a kid (and probably why the PTSD I developed after the rape was so severe).

That's what "grab them by the pussy" means.

If I hear one more man talking about whether or not people talk like that, I'm going to lose it you guys. MEN DO THIS. That's the fucking issue. You're all letting Donald frame this about whether or not it was locker room banter. That's code for "this doesn't actually happen."

Reframe this bullshit right now. PLEASE.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 9:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [241 favorites]


A very concrete example of the harm being done by this man just as a candidate and those who defend him:
“Hey can I grab your pussy….
<pause>
Was what Donald Trump said.“ — Boys to girls today at daughter’s High School.
Feel proud GOP.
--@TeresaKopec

Add this to all the "build a wall" taunts kids have been shouting, the Islamophobia, and all the other hate he's inspired at schools since the primaries. This is not ok.
posted by zachlipton at 9:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [99 favorites]


Chris Matthews isn't perfect but he asked Trump if there should be punishment for a woman getting an abortion 12 times before he got the answer that we now know, "there has to be some punishment for the woman" that the campaign had to walk back.

I think he has flaws but I do feel like we still need an arrogant old white guy on our side, and he's that.

That's great for interviews but the biggest problem with panel shows is that spin usually involves something like this:

1) Their candidate's plan/stance/words are terrible, ours is great
2) ???
3) Everyone's happy if our candidate is running the show!

I don't know if it's because of time constraints or because they're worried about being partisan or boring or being seen as an interviewer or facilitator that nobody wants to go on, but nobody ever asks for the details of step 2. And if step 2 is similar to step 1 they don't push on it.

Nobody wants to get down in the weeds on these panels. They just want to yell at each other, snipe at each other, get the zinger or the beatdown.

But I fear a reasonable panel round table, where you stop gish gallops, where you address points, where you try to seek consensus would probably be, for a lot of people out there, a better sleep aid than Ambien.

I really don't see how political discourse on cable news can really improve from partisan hackery at this point.
posted by Talez at 9:19 PM on October 10, 2016


So after a little social media chit-chat, it turns out that it's not just me -- virtually every woman I know had a 3 AM trauma response anxiety thing last night. My husband, who is as virulently opposed to a Trump presidency as I am, said "wow. I had no idea. That's very enlightening, and terrifying" when he found out.

This man is traumatizing an entire gender.
posted by KathrynT at 9:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [68 favorites]


Also why is it the same men who always deny that rape culture exists who are currently being all "what? no, men always talk about sexually assaulting women when there are no women around, that's what all men are like, it's normal and you need to be aware of it"?

we're gonna need a bigger wicker man
posted by KathrynT at 9:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [111 favorites]


I had a small panic attack as soon as Trump came on stage. After the jail talk I made my boyfriend turn on Full house for a few minutes.
posted by zutalors! at 9:31 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have been listening to David Rees's Election Profit Makers a lot lately and find it somewhat soothing.

Don't despair, play the markets and make money by betting against people who think Donald still has a chance. Ride the wave!
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, wow, that Carter Page story is DEEPLY unsettling.
posted by KathrynT at 9:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


And there's that "he was a Democrat then, so it doesn't count" argument again. I really do not get that.
posted by Archelaus at 9:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think it's a backhanded shot at Bill Clinton, Archelaus, on the assumption that he gets a pass on his allegedly-similar* behavior because he's a Democrat.

* I know. I know.
posted by rokusan at 9:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trevor Noah on Trump: “If you conduct locker room talk everywhere, it’s not the locker room. It’s you, motherfucker!”
posted by Talez at 9:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [45 favorites]


wait, I must have slipped into this timeline from a deeply different one, because I am pretty sure that Bill Clinton got a pass on roughly no behavior in the timeline I am more familiar with
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:42 PM on October 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


And I think it's important now that all the oppo (known and unknown to Team HRC) gets dropped quickly.

Because where we are now is mainlining the filthiest abuse into "politics as usual", and that's malignant. I want people who showed up to the PA events today (and the NC Pence events) to feel dirty for doing so. I want them to lie to their deathbeds about having attended them.
posted by holgate at 9:43 PM on October 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


And there's that "he was a Democrat then, so it doesn't count" argument again. I really do not get that.

Sometimes reverse engineering a No True Republicansman defense seems easier than untangling one's cognitive dissonance. Also, the classic Insecurvative's bedrock political argumentation principle of "no, YOU"
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I missed George Takei in all of this.

George Takei @GeorgeTakei
At a speech today in PA, Trump said he considers himself "a blue collar worker, in a way." Right. That's like me claiming I'm a ladies man.
posted by Talez at 9:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [89 favorites]


wait, I must have slipped into this timeline from a deeply different one, because I am pretty sure that Bill Clinton got a pass on roughly no behavior in the timeline I am more familiar with

We will have to ask you some more questions to determine if you are in fact a victim of the Mandela Effect.

How is it spelled: Barenstein Bears or Barenstain Bears?

Who led the US into a disastrous war in Iraq: Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, or George W. Bush?

Was there an episode of Star Trek: Voyager where Chakotay died, only for him to quietly return several episodes later?

Was Japanese internment a national disgrace, or a sensible and justified course of action?
posted by ckape at 9:53 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


How is it spelled: Barenstein Bears or Barenstain Bears?

Berenstain universe for me. I don't think anybody's in the Baren-verse.
posted by stolyarova at 9:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


lessee

Barenstain, definitely. Not sure on some of the other ones, but I definitely remember Big Bang Theory and Family Guy always being pretty popular, so I'm clearly from at least a fairly dark timeline
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:55 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Threeturtles, can I ask what your husband's age cohort is?

He's 40. I'm slightly younger, but we're both Gen X. So yeah, I was honestly surprised because I've always felt that the guys I've been around have been, well, better than average at least.

But I think it's worth noting that he comes from a redneck, working class, trailer park background. And for a while was a pretty significant drug user, so it's possible some of it came from people he knew through more sketchy circles.
posted by threeturtles at 9:58 PM on October 10, 2016


I think I love Trevor Noah.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:03 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm not really comfortable linking to it since it's on the Trump campaign's YouTube account (for fairness here it is "Moderator Fail")... but they've put up a compilation video of all the times he's cut off by the moderators. Clearly they seem to think that that it's clear evidence that he's being treated unfairly. But to me it reads "Our candidate is a child that had to be reigned in constantly"

Again yep this is clearly a confident and winning campaign
</sarcasm>
posted by cirhosis at 10:04 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


But I think it's worth noting that he comes from a redneck, working class, trailer park background. And for a while was a pretty significant drug user, so it's possible some of it came from people he knew through more sketchy circles.

I know you don't mean it like this, but men of all classes assault women. Men who assault women also have female friends they treat well - assault is targeted at specific women who are judged to be vulnerable, not a function of class or drug use (nor is drug use a function of class, though we treat lower class drug users more harshly than higher class ones in general).

I think it's really important to not mix up demographics with predators.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [50 favorites]


"Despite reports to the contrary, Mark Burnett does not have the ability nor the right to release footage or other material from The Apprentice. Various contractual and legal requirements also restrict MGM's ability to release such material," the joint statement reads. "The recent claims that Mark Burnett has threatened anyone with litigation if they were to leak such material are completely and unequivocally false."

I'm guessing that all of the outtakes are tied up in Trump's routine non-disclosure agreements. Neither Mark Burnett nor MGM have the authority to release the tapes without risking being sued by Trump.
posted by JackFlash at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wouldn't it be awesome if this becomes a trend? Trumpers voting for Democrats down ballot because they're mad at the Republicans?

There's no reason you can't anonymously encourage this kind of thinking on social media by upvoting right wingers who think this way, on Facebook, Reddit, etc. It's interesting to visit /r/The_Donald occasionally just to glimpse the madness, and while you're there....

Some would even create sockpuppets with clean or conservative histories so as to post things. Not my style but....
posted by msalt at 10:13 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


And there's that "he was a Democrat then, so it doesn't count" argument again. I really do not get that.

It's hippie-punching. "Everyone knows libruls are a bunch of free-love sex-crazed hippie weirdos, plus they don't mind teh gayz which proves they're preverted - of course DJT was a crude sex-crazed weirdo when he was a Democrat. Once he saw the light and went Republican, he venerates women the way he should."
posted by soundguy99 at 10:16 PM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Neither Mark Burnett nor MGM have the authority to release the tapes without risking being sued by Trump.

Well, fuck that shit. The Standard Trump NDA is going to be worth less than a zinc-lobby penny if what I expect to happen in the next four weeks actually happens. The question is whether they want to be on the side of those who chose wisely.
posted by holgate at 10:18 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Someone said it earlier but I thought they were joking. That really happened, y'all. Betsy McCaughey asking why it's ok for Hillary to like Beyonce, because B's lyrics. Link to twitter embedded video, because I can't find the real clip.

2016.
posted by ctmf at 10:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Betsy McHacky is one reason (with assistance from Andrew Sullivan) why Hillary's healthcare reform never happened. Fuck her fuck her why does she even get on TV.
posted by holgate at 10:27 PM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


So there's a new Cedric the Entertainer special on Netflix and he has a bit that is so on point it's crazy. It's at around 8:50 in for those with an account.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:28 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Standard Trump NDA is going to be worth less than a zinc-lobby penny if what I expect to happen in the next four weeks actually happens.

Have you heard of Gawker? Litigation is no joke.
posted by JackFlash at 10:29 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've seen Scottie the Trump Trumpet pushing the 50 Shades pop culture narrative all day, which must be pretty frustrating to the kink community and their legendary devotion to consent and sex-positivity.
posted by xyzzy at 10:34 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Have you heard of Gawker? Litigation is no joke.

Well, quite, and the amount of litigation directed towards Loser Trump will be uuuuuuuge. And it will test the viability of that bully NDA.
posted by holgate at 10:36 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


> I've put in a call to my therapist. I know I should look away, but this is too important. But I don't know what it would take for me to feel better - a Clinton blow out doesn't change the fact that Trump was a major party's nominee for president. I've completely lost faith that democracy is a long term viable method of governing

America's Therapists Are Worried About Trump’s Effect On Your Mental Health
posted by mrgrimm at 10:38 PM on October 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


For those keeping track of the hilarity over at r/thedonald, they have now switched from a belief that Trump released the 'groping' tapes as some sort of masterful 4D chess play to believing that they were leaked by an aide to Ryan and formerly Romney. Obviously there's no attempt to reconcile these two positions.

They're also pretty excited about a tweet from James O'Keefe (yeah, that guy) claiming to "drop the first" video of "many" tomorrow.
posted by modernnomad at 10:40 PM on October 10, 2016


So I want to say, when he loses, it's going to be a race whether the criminal charges or civil suits catch up to him first.

But I wonder, does all that "we don't prosecute our opponents" give him a pass for all the clearly criminal shit he's done over the years, just because he ran for president? I'd like to think not.
posted by ctmf at 10:40 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


does all that "we don't prosecute our opponents" give him a pass for all the clearly criminal shit he's done over the years, just because he ran for president? I'd like to think not.

He wants to think yes. He wants millions of people on his side when the lawsuits come down, especially from places like the NY state AG. He will find himself with few allies, because the bottom will drop out from TrumpOrg very quickly.
posted by holgate at 10:44 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Standard Trump NDA is going to be worth less than a zinc-lobby penny if what I expect to happen in the next four weeks actually happens.
Have you heard of Gawker? Litigation is no joke.

Litigation for civil offenses, like breach of contract, are only effective if the plaintiff has the money to go after them. (This is why the MPAA and RIAA keep wanting more copyright infringements to be crimes instead of torts: so the gov't will have the obligation of paying for the prosecution.) If Trump winds up (1) broke because his tax dodges stop working and he's found liable for a lot of the Foundation's tax dodges, and (2) in jail because he can't shake the child molestation & rape charges, he won't have the funds to go after people for violating the NDAs.

The details of that depend on the exact phrasing of and parties to the contracts, and even if he's broke and imprisoned, he could theoretically find a lawyer willing to work on contingency. How well that'd work depends a lot on the details of the contracts... and the money behind the defense lawyers, who might be able to find some whistleblower laws that let them release the tapes, or the tapes might technically be released by someone not party to the contracts (new staff hasn't signed any of those original NDAs, and whether new contracts can append them to the originals is the kind of thing that can stretch litigation for years), or they might find some other dodge.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


But I wonder, does all that "we don't prosecute our opponents" give him a pass for all the clearly criminal shit he's done over the years, just because he ran for president?
Well, it's ONE of the reasons he decided to run in the first place, obviously.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


But I wonder, does all that "we don't prosecute our opponents" give him a pass for all the clearly criminal shit he's done over the years, just because he ran for president? I'd like to think not.

Clinton wouldn't have any control over states that would prosecute him or people suing him.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


But I wonder, does all that "we don't prosecute our opponents" give him a pass for all the clearly criminal shit he's done over the years, just because he ran for president? I'd like to think not.

There's probably 100 years worth of state-court-level trouble for him to wade through without President Hillary Clinton lifting a finger to cause him any problems.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


if you went around and tried to find a woman who has never been groped, grabbed, unwillingly kissed, pressed up against against her will, had a stranger expose himself to her, or the like, it would be difficult.

Not joking when I say this: in order to find someone like that you'd have to find someone who's always lived in a nunnery or a tower or something and had no contact with men whatsoever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


he could theoretically find a lawyer willing to work on contingency.

I hope the American legal profession is made up of 1) people who want paying up front for Trump legal shit 2) TrumpOrg lawyers 3) there is no 3).
posted by holgate at 10:48 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


The 50 Shades argument is the Trump surrogates trying to slut shame America. It's trying to reframe the debate from sexual assault to "lewd language." It's fundamentally the same argument as rapist's defense lawyer arguing that because the victim liked some other action or did something or said something or wore something, they must have liked it and so it wasn't sexual assault. That's what rape shield laws were intended to prevent. That's the awful argument Scottie is making: you people all liked this sexual stuff, so how dare you be outraged about this sexual assault?
posted by zachlipton at 10:49 PM on October 10, 2016 [61 favorites]


>> Donald Trump likes to read "The Snake" at his rallies. The author's family wants him to stop.

>Is it in the public domain? Because if it's copyrighted, "public performance" is one of the rights that's restricted - if he hasn't paid a license fee (if it's attached to the RIAA or other licensing org), or worked out a specific contract with the owner(s), he could be sued for up to $150,000 per unauthorized use.

>Bit of research says it was written in 63 and recorded in 68; that would put it in public domain unless it was re-registered.

Since Trump is not playing an audio recording of The Snake, performance rights of the audio recording are not at issue.

What is at issue is the copyright in the music and (particularly) the words. A bit of research reveals: "The Snake" words & music by Oscar Brown, Jr. , copyright registered 3 Aug 1966 by Edward B. Marks Music Corp. (See p. 1996 in Catalog of Copyright Entries: Musical Compositions, USGov Printing Office, 1966 here.)

Since it was copyright 1966, the 28 year renewal came up in 1994--which is conveniently just after the passage of the Copyright Act of 1992, which made copyright renewal automatic. So the copyright is still valid, no question.

Copyright owned by a major music publishing company pretty much ensures that rights to perform the work are covered by the BMI, ASCAP, and/or SESAC licenses that are held by essentially every public performance space such as the ones Trump uses for his campaign events. It looks like E.B. Marks is part of the Carlin America which is represented by Hal Leonard. Which means that if the venue has a license from any of BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC they are all set. And every venue will have all of those licenses.

Trump is reading the poem rather than singing (I hope!!?) but that is irrelevant for purposes of copyright--it is still a public performance and still covered by the BMI, ASCAP and/or SESAC license held by the venue.

You'll often hear about particular artists complaining about and objecting to the use of their work in this type of setting. But because of the blanket licensing arrangements and other complex licensing and ownership issues, it is usually pretty hard for even the copyright owner to jerk the rights back from just one particular user. (They would probably have to pull the work out of BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc altogether and then try to deal with licensing on a case-by-case basis. In reality, no one does that.) The situation is complicated by the fact that the composer/writer/perform or estate is often not even the copyright holder. In the case of The Snake, E. B. Marks Music Company is the copyright holder, not Brown or his family.

In short, artists can always launch a moral objection to use of their music by objectionable politicians, but making it actually illegal to use is a fair bit harder.

TL;DR: Blanket licenses paid by venues allow routine public performance of copyrighted works like this by basically anybody.
posted by flug at 11:02 PM on October 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


The 50 Shades argument is the Trump surrogates trying to slut shame America.

If they'd actually read five years worth of feminist analysis they could go after it the way a lot of feminists do - as a rape culture manifesto and outline of an abuser both from the POV of his victim (who develops an eating disorder) and the POV of the abuser (the book Grey is.... distressing). Sadly, their response comes down to "OMG IT HAD SEX IN IT".
posted by Deoridhe at 11:07 PM on October 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


My response to the 50SoG balderdash has been "by this standard, everyone who watched Breaking Bad loves meth dealers."
posted by KathrynT at 11:11 PM on October 10, 2016 [43 favorites]


The most commonly cited statistic is that 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual violence. I think, though, if you went around and tried to find a woman who has never been groped, grabbed, unwillingly kissed, pressed up against against her will, had a stranger expose himself to her, or the like, it would be difficult. If someone asked me if I've ever been sexually assaulted, I would have said no before this incident, even though all of the above things have happened to me, in some cases many times. We're just so conditioned to think of it as normal.

First of all, I've always said if I judged by my own experience, the statistic was more like 3/4 experience sexual assault. Just during my college years, if I take myself and my 3 closest female friends, 3 out of 4 of us were raped.

But I also would have said I've never been sexually assaulted. But when I was 13, I had a man rub his erection against me on a crowded subway. (I was also wearing my mandated school uniform, the required short skirt.) I have literally never told anyone about that until this past weekend when I posted it on twitter in reply to that original tweet. And not because I didn't remember it. I remember it vividly. It's because of the depth of shame that the memory had attached to it. And trust me, if I have a story of sexual assault that I've never spoken of, EVERY woman does.
posted by threeturtles at 11:15 PM on October 10, 2016 [55 favorites]


My wife claims she's never been sexually assaulted, fwiw. (However, about 75% of my partners have been (or have shared with me), so 3/4 sounds about right to me.)
posted by mrgrimm at 11:18 PM on October 10, 2016


Not to mention that those themes are duplicated from the source material. Regardless, it's a reach to claim that because people enjoy submission fantasies, as misguided as the book may be, that women should be told that sexual assault is what they must surely enjoy.

Anderson had a great report on the laughing at the rape victim accusation. Interestingly, after HRC's involvement in that case, which she had asked to be removed from, she helped set up Arkansas' first rape hotline.
posted by xyzzy at 11:19 PM on October 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump’s truest believers start to worry: ‘You could easily lose this election’

Trump's rallies are a bubble for him, an escape:
At rallies like these, Trump can live in a world where he is still winning. He was introduced as “the next president” and greeted by a screaming crowd of 2,500 while, he said, “thousands and thousands” more waited outside. There were no polls showing Clinton with a double-digit lead, no debate moderators grilling him on the Syrian conflict, no party leaders telling him to tone it down. Here, Trump declared himself the winner of the debate, berated the media and attacked Clinton without any interruptions from fact-checkers.

Crowds like these are Trump’s case for not dropping out of the race. Crowds like these are his evidence that he can still win. Crowds are his polls.
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


I know you don't mean it like this, but men of all classes assault women.

And I know you don't mean I meant it like that, but I found myself wondering why so many men are saying "I've never heard anything like this" and my husband said "I've totally heard things like that." So I ask myself who he may have been around that aren't maybe the same as who other of my friends spent time around and I come up with "guys who come from working class backgrounds/didn't go to college" and "guys he knew when he was using drugs a lot." I mean, obviously anyone can rape/harass. And do. But maybe there's some factors that mean someone is more likely to brag about it and those may be class/education oriented.
posted by threeturtles at 11:25 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Neither Mark Burnett nor MGM have the authority to release the tapes without risking being sued by Trump.

Doesn't it also open them up to lawsuits from their own employees? It's a workplace after all. If they have recordings of Trump being a racist, sexist arse, it's not like they can deny they knew about it. It would also, like Billy Bush, shorten the career of anyone else on the tapes appearing to be complicate, and they might want to protect those people for business reasons.
posted by kjs4 at 11:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


And I know you don't mean I meant it like that, but I found myself wondering why so many men are saying "I've never heard anything like this" and my husband said "I've totally heard things like that."

You are comparing one data point against another. That is not nearly enough evidence to suggest a causal factor explaining that difference, much less the specific one that you happen to choose out of dozens of possibilities. It could just as easily be random chance that led to such different experiences.

But maybe there's some factors that mean someone is more likely to brag about it and those may be class/education oriented.

Respectfully, those are reckless words to use when you are generalizing about a category of people regarding a negative behavior.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:33 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Forgive me, some data points against another. The point stands, though.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:34 PM on October 10, 2016


The fact that white non-college men overwhelmingly support racist, misogynist Trump when compared to any other demographic does suggest that white non-college men are probably more racist and misogynistic than any other demographic. The other possibility you could argue is that they're just not smart enough to realize what they're doing, but that's even more insulting.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 PM on October 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


I found myself wondering why so many men are saying "I've never heard anything like this"

My best guess is a lot of men have heard things like this but it didn't register because they weren't listening for it. There are a lot of reasons for that, but all of them boil down to rape culture. Much like women often find we rethink past experiences and realize they were assault, harassment, or rape, men may find that as they think back to their interactions with other men they realize some of the stories told were concealing assault and harassment (or may be assault or harassment - one horrible aspect of rape culture is the idea all men always want sex all of the time without an emotional component, thus completely removing the idea men might not consent to sex).
posted by Deoridhe at 11:46 PM on October 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


The other possibility you could argue is that they're just not smart enough to realize what they're doing, but that's even more insulting.

“Not smart enough” isn’t quite the same as “not aware of” or “don’t believe”.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:48 PM on October 10, 2016


Not believing Trump is being racist and misogynistic is, at this point, tacit support of racism and misogyny. Like holocaust denialism or something.
posted by Justinian at 11:54 PM on October 10, 2016 [38 favorites]


Hillary is giving Turkey the middle finger in this debate talking about arming the Kurds.

There's a comprehensible strategic shift there that might be wrong, but it's a concrete idea at least.

I'm not sure there's a strategic shift. It may just be a "fuck you" to Erdogan, a la releasing the 2005 Trump video on Putin's birthday. (I note Erdogan has recently been making such effort to be the kind of leader Trump wishes he could be in the US, and Putin already is in Russia.)

That gives me a bit of hope. I want to believe in Clinton as a leader and as a person, because I think she's the best shot America has at a) helping defeat the bat-shit crazy that has overtaken the Republican party over the last decade, b) actually living up to the standard of standing up for freedom globally. I have my concerns about her. But I'm certain she's tough as nails, and I know what she won't stand for.
posted by iffthen at 11:59 PM on October 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


(If anyone believes that is too inflammatory feel free to substitute, I dunno, Climate Change denialism or denying that smoking causes cancer.)
posted by Justinian at 11:59 PM on October 10, 2016


Regardless of if you have personally heard men brag about sexual assault or not, the normalization of that sort of talk - and behavior - is being presented by leaders of a major political party. That is fucked up.

What disturbs me the most is that for every guy who does engage in what's unbelievably being called "locker room talk," there are many, many more who won't say things out loud, and who are being lead to believe that this is what is normal. You don't have to say this stuff out lout to be a predator, you just have to believe that it's normal, and that sort of thinking can easily transcend class or any other personal background. It's not just the ones who overtly threaten to do these things that end up actually doing them - Many others who were abused by "upstanding, honorable men" can vouch for that.

This normalization needs to be summarily rejected at every opportunity - It has always needed to be so. I've never been around anyone who has talked like this "in locker rooms" or other places, but I know plenty who aren't surprised because they believe that it's normal for men to have these thoughts -- and that needs to be pushed back on just as aggressively and directly as those who actually do speak those thoughts out loud.

Apologies if this isn't as coherent as it an be, I'm tired and semi-blinded by rage at so very much of this. Literally every woman I am close to has been sexually assaulted, and I've been victimized as well, as a man, when I was much younger. I've been furious about these injustices for some time, and I'm seeing so much rationalization of the same mentality that traumatized me and so many others -- not from people here, and thank you all so much for being a community that I know I can turn to and be heard -- that I need to take a sanity break from all of this.

God, this fucking election.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [39 favorites]


The Post has a whole article on the Trump campaign's sexual assault denialism tonight: Donald Trump’s backers have been reduced to suggesting groping may not be sexual assault. It has the Jeff Sessions denial, mentioned upthread. Then this piece of work:
Republican National Committee spokesman Sean Spicer responded to the same question ["But beyond the language, would you characterize the behavior described in that as sexual assault, if that behavior actually took place?"]: "I don't know. I'm not a lawyer."

Update: Spicer disputed that quote, telling The Post, "I never said it." But McCormack provided The Post with an audio recording of a man who clearly sounds like Spicer, in the spin room, speaking those exact words.

Spicer responds: "While I was asked question about a matter of law, it is never appropriate to touch anyone in an unwelcome manner."
The man is the spokesman for the RNC, speaking to a reporter with a tape recorder, in the spin room, after the debate, and he tried to deny his own words and thought he could get away with it.
posted by zachlipton at 12:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [63 favorites]


> Have you heard of Gawker? Litigation is no joke.

Wikileaks' original mandate was for there to be an anonymous clearing house for such leaked information (I believe in our ability to avoid a derail about its founder), and since the Snowden files, some reputable news sites have setup similar sites of their own using SecureDrop. It's not trivlal to setup, but it's the tiniest bit more accessible than before. SecureDrop sites are hosted via "the dark web" (aka Tor). Even if the news organizations behind this don't think they could survive the legal onslaught that would surely result, they could also coordinate simultaneous release by a number of orgs and spread out legal entanglements.

Alternately, those files could appear on Youtube as a private video, let it go viral and someone will have managed to download it before Google takes it down. Alternately, upload to TPB or mega.nz, let it go viral outside of the US first.

The Internet's not the wild west frontier it used to be, but it's not under martial law just yet.

If someone is looking to make the $5 million figure thats being thrown around, then it gets a bit more difficult, but hopefully American democracy and the fate of the world doesn't hinge on Bitcoin.
posted by fragmede at 12:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


None of you will read this but here goes:

Here in AZ "I grabbed them by the pussy" means "sexual abuse of a person over the age of 15," which is a class 5 felony. Class 5 felonies have a presumptive sentence of 2 to 2.5 years in prison, per ARS 13-1404(A).

Drug possession is frequently a class 2 felony in AZ. Class 2 has a presumptive sentence of 5 to 12.5 years in prison, per ARS 13-3408(A)[2].

You know, just in case any one of you has a social media argument devolve into "show me black and white evidence of systemic/institutionalized sexism!" or whatever.
posted by Hiding From Goro at 12:10 AM on October 11, 2016 [74 favorites]


I found myself wondering why so many men are saying "I've never heard anything like this" and my husband said "I've totally heard things like that."

Most of this is because of different definitions of "this." Trump wants 'this' to be men saying words like pussy and bragging about their sexual success, or discussing the merits of potential sex partners. This is not rare among men, though not universal either.

But bragging about just going up and kissing or groping women and getting away with that? Maybe in a few fucked up frats, but that is just weird and likely to get a response of "Seriously? What the fuck is WRONG with you?" or "Geez, you're that desperate, huh? Go get a whore then ya loser."
posted by msalt at 12:14 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


MrGrimm: thank you for the link about therapists. I started shaking as I was reading it and think I realized at least part of why this campaign is making me so upset. Its the personal responsibility part.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's no reason you can't anonymously encourage this kind of thinking on social media by upvoting right wingers who think this way, on Facebook, Reddit, etc. It's interesting to visit /r/The_Donald occasionally just to glimpse the madness, and while you're there....

/r/The_Donald already ahead of us in their efforts to scent out and persecute internal enemies:

[–]vfx_dudeUSA 23 points an hour ago

I tweeted this to Byron York this afternoon. He replied stating that the poll was a joint Dem/GOP "bi-partisan" poll.

So I decided to look into the GOP polling company. They are Public Opinion Strategies. Hmmm... sounds innocuous. I wondered who they've worked for - went to their website and clicked: turns out they've worked on the campaigns for... Paul Ryan, John McCain, and just about every Republican that came out this weekend AGAINST Trump!!

So - this new "breaking" poll - just happened to be released the day AFTER a debate - and was conducted by Pollsters for a Clinton Super-PAC and a who's who of Never Trumpers. No bias there - right?

Oh -and if that's not bad enough - the poll sample showed that the people included voted for Obama 13% more than Romney (Romney lost by 6%).

I could go on - but I think you all get it

And similarly, diving into "Glenn Beck: standing against Trump is the moral, ethical choice." and reading the comments, red on red is the new fall look.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Evangelical women superstars against Trump, wondering when male evangelicals will believe and stand up for the women.
posted by bryon at 12:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Paul Ryan should spend more time on balancing the budget, jobs and illegal immigration and not waste his time on fighting Republican nominee"
(Realdonaldtrump)

That's right republicans, ignore the down vote. It's not important anyways.
posted by Yowser at 12:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Man Who Has It All: " 'I resist the urge to grab men by the testes because I have a husband, son and father. Otherwise I would.' - Claire, CEO"

The comments are funny!
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:03 AM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


guys I am just that gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn over here watching the entire Republican party finally figure out that the emperor has no clothes

at least until I get around to realizing the incalculable damage his campaign has done to society as a whole by normalizing hate speech and just generally being like an ISIS for angry white protestant males

but until then: delicious, delicious popcorn
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:03 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now I wonder if you could troll Donald into yelling at Mitch McConnell to hold that hearing for Merrick Garland.
posted by ckape at 1:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


https://flic.kr/p/MAQUPY

In geologic time, this was eons ago, but here is gingerbeer in the town hall blanket fort we built. She has her laptop and a cocktail, so she is safe.
posted by rtha at 1:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


But bragging about just going up and kissing or groping women and getting away with that? Maybe in a few fucked up frats, but that is just weird and likely to get a response of "Seriously? What the fuck is WRONG with you?" or "Geez, you're that desperate, huh? Go get a whore then ya loser."

This. The push back behind Trump's words being locker room banter isn't denying that sexual assault happens. It's not letting Trump and co make boasting about sexual assault acceptable somewhere it isn't. It's also pointing out that in that audio Trump is a loser by the standards of guys locker rooms where the boasting is about how much they wanted you, not about how you got shot down and tried to force yourself on people.

And every single person saying that we shouldn't point out that Trump is violating the standards of locker rooms is telling us to stop the fight against letting them become worse. Letting the narrative stand that that's acceptable locker room behaviour will let it become acceptable locker room behavior when it right now isn't.

Saying that Trump's comments don't get said by guys is one thing. They do and I don't think that anyone has actually tried to deny that. Pointing out that they don't happen in almost all locker rooms because locker rooms have codes of values is speaking up about just how unacceptable his comments are. And it is doing so in a way that is trying to make it Locker Rooms vs Trump rather than accepting his narrative and shifting the Overton Window to make it Clinton Supporters vs Locker Rooms.
posted by Francis at 1:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


Also, as Trevor Noah points out so eloquently, a bus is not a locker room.
posted by mikelieman at 2:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Former director of GCHQ on the BBC this morning saying that he's particularly worried about US districts with no paper records of voting, given evidence of attacks on voting systems.

I know that concerns like this were one reason why the UK effectively abandoned experiments in e-voting in the 1990s. Once you've lost faith in the integrity of your voting system and have no way to do an effective recount, you're in hot water, and it's not as if there's any lack of people willing to stoke those fears.
posted by Devonian at 2:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Still voting on paper here in Australia; compulsorily. And democratically. May God save you all.
posted by esto-again at 2:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


> The man is the spokesman for the RNC, speaking to a reporter with a tape recorder, in the spin room, after the debate, and he tried to deny his own words and thought he could get away with it.

It seems the Trumpypool infection has now spread throughout the Trump campaign, supporters, media surrogates, and a large percentage of RNC folk. I know it must be difficult for the Writers of 2016 to keep topping themselves, but damn it, I'm not prepared for a World War T scenario.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 3:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Man Who Has It All: " 'I resist the urge to grab men by the testes because I have a husband, son and father. Otherwise I would.' - Claire, CEO"

The comments are funny!

testerical meninists heh

Bloody hell I've got to stop reading this thread there's so much stuff I've got to do today
posted by glasseyes at 3:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Private Eye: How American politics has changed, 2008 - 2016
posted by effbot at 3:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


New POLITICO/Morning Consult poll conducted post-debate. Clinton 42, Trump 37, Johnson 10, Stein 3. She's also +5 in the two way.

So that's Clinton +5 which is... rather far off Clinton +14. We'll see which is closer to the truth when we get more polls.
posted by Justinian at 4:01 AM on October 11, 2016


The other poll we have is a Roanoke poll in VA showing Clinton +9. That's up 2 points from their previous poll of Clinton +7. VA +9 is a very good result.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


PPRI/Atlantic poll showing Clinton has an 11-point lead, 49% - 38% (field dates Oct. 5-9, with 44% interviewed after the Trump tape broke):
Fewer than three in ten (28%) female voters say they would vote for Trump if the election were held today, compared to six in ten (61%) who say they are backing Clinton—a 33-point gap. In sharp contrast, Trump still holds a substantial lead over Clinton among male voters (48% vs. 37%, respectively). . . .

independent voters have shifted their support from Trump to Clinton over the past week. Currently, roughly four in ten (44%) independent voters favor Clinton, compared to one-third (33%) who are supporting Trump. Last week, Clinton trailed Trump among independent voters by eight points (36% vs. 44%, respectively).
posted by sallybrown at 4:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


PRRI (PDF):

+13 among RV, 5-point swing from previous week
49 Clinton
36 Trump
01 Johnson

+11 among LV, also 5-point swing
49 Clinton
38 Trump
02 Johnson

Stein is getting a negligible percentage in both. It's pre-debate (Oct 5-9), too.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


> “Hey can I grab your pussy….
[pause]
Was what Donald Trump said.“
— Boys to girls today at daughter’s High School.

That's a horrible horrible joke and at the same time it's still better than what Trump did because he did not even ask.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Someday I want to know who convinced each of the non-Trump Republican candidates to run. If there would have only been a handful, he probably would have never made it out of the primaries.

It could just have been hubris. They would have seen it as a golden opportunity to go against an "easy" target in the form of Clinton, who was always the likely Democratic nominee, figuring that sexism among voters and decades of Republic disinformation made her victory difficult if not impossible. When the main prize seems all but assured, why not throw your hat in the ring?
posted by rory at 4:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Here are the detailed statistics for the PPRI/Atlantic poll, which polled 1,327 people (526 Landline, 801 Cell phone).

Here's more detail on the Politico/Morning Consult poll (1,549 registered voters, with 1,390 likely voters), all of which was conducted on Saturday, and played the people being polled the Trump video and apology as part of the poll.
posted by sallybrown at 4:38 AM on October 11, 2016


One of the biggest shifts is that with the tape, Donald Trump is just another corrupt insider, seeking to gain and to use power for personal gratification. The mood of the electorate is to elect someone who is not that, as they perceive this as being "the problem."

So if both sides are corrupt (in the mind of the electorate) what's to separate the two? Well, for one, he's incompetent. For another, his own party hates him, his surrogates and supporters continually say stupid things and Republican Conservative darlings are pointedly turning their back on him, and not a single major paper has endorsed him, including a number of Conservative Republican rags.

Clinton has her own party, as well as a number of centrist mainstream Republicans, including a former president, lining up behind her. She has the far-left of her party lining up behind her, including her opponent from a savage primary. Pelosi and Reid come off as being far more in control of their congressional contingent than their counterparts on the other side of the aisle.

If both sides are "bad", the independents are going to break for the candidate who has their shit together and can get stuff done.

And, bear in mind, PEC's Wang believes that the House is in play if Hillary is up eight points in the national polls. (Of course, when he said it, he likely didn't believe that was possible. We'll see.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:48 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald's first tweet of the day furthers the Republican infighting.

"Desite winning the second debate in a landslide (every poll), it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give zero support!"
posted by colt45 at 4:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


It could just have been hubris. They would have seen it as a golden opportunity to go against an "easy" target in the form of Clinton, who was always the likely Democratic nominee, figuring that sexism among voters and decades of Republic disinformation made her victory difficult if not impossible. When the main prize seems all but assured, why not throw your hat in the ring?

"But first you have to win the primary."

"Yes, but that's a clown car of idiots. How can I not beat THEM?"

*takes a step, wonders why his shoes are so big and why they make fart noises*
posted by delfin at 4:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


In Wisconsin there was a poll from a place called Loras showing Ron Johnson leading Feingold by 5%. Which makes no sense because every other poll has showed Feingold leading and nothing has happened in the campaigns lately.
posted by drezdn at 4:58 AM on October 11, 2016


everyone can throw their own ass up in the air and fuck at it

I did not know I needed this in my life

Chuck Tingle's got your back.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Republicans say Trump wrong to deny Russia's role in hacks
posted by XMLicious at 5:03 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chuck Tingle's got your back

Hard pass (IYKWIM)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:04 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Desite" ??


Yes. Typo in the original. Maybe he needs Ryan to proofread his tweets.
posted by colt45 at 5:10 AM on October 11, 2016


Fewer than three in ten (28%) female voters say they would vote for Trump if the election were held today,

One point above the Keyes Constant. This is a good thing.
posted by mikelieman at 5:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Desite winning the second debate in a landslide (every poll), it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give zero support!"

Go down with your rotten ship, you scrabbling rats. The rest of the world doesn't deserve to have had Trump inflicted on it, but y'all sure did, and I hope you choke on him. Namaste.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:14 AM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


From the NYT Business section: Special Tax on Women: Trump Tape Is a Reminder of the Cost of Harassment
This kind of behavior isn’t just offensive; it also imposes real costs on women. The burden of avoiding and enduring sexual harassment and assault results, over time, in lost opportunities and less favorable outcomes for girls and women. It is effectively a sort of gender-specific tax that many women have no choice but to pay.

“I really do think of it as a tax on opportunity,” said Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver who researches civil rights and identity issues. “On workplace opportunity, on opportunity at school.”
There are some examples:
■ Is it worth accepting a professor’s offer for one-on-one research mentorship on the assumption that his interest in me is strictly academic?

■ At a business dinner, when drinking gets heavy and the clients start to seem awfully friendly, is it worth staying in the hope that the sale will close and things won’t turn uncomfortable, or worse?

■ At a conference, when networking happens late, at a bar, and the conversation starts to turn, is it worth staying to make valuable professional connections?

■ When raising money for a start-up, and a well-known angel investor offers a meeting at his office late in the evening, is it the chance of a lifetime?

For women, the answer to all of these is the same: Probably. But sometimes not.

Men rarely have to make that calculation.
Of course, Trump supporters think that taxes are for little people, and women are by definition little people, so maybe the idea of us paying a special tax would be a positive thing in their world.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:17 AM on October 11, 2016 [97 favorites]


Welcome Back, SPY

"As Trump became the Republicans' presumptive nominee, lots more people, pretty much every day, said to me, "SPY really needs to be rebooted, if only just for the election."

I guess maybe they're right, so I'm very pleased that Esquire has decided to produce an online pop-up SPY during the last thirty days of the presidential campaign."
posted by colt45 at 5:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [33 favorites]


Here. Let Adam Sandler be your guide.

In the field, at least in my experience, is that the line that's going to follow "That's assault brother!" is going to be something like, "Ah, come on. She wants it. You know she wants it! A real man would just make her want it!" and it's going to keep cycling downward until I feel like I need to go home and shower with bleach. Seriously, I'd love to know the magic gambit to make that escalation thing not happen (bleach is hard on the skin) but I've yet to see evidence that some variant of "What the hell is wrong with you?" is that thing.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


And do not mistake my meaning. If somebody has a link to something, preferably with the letters of PsyD behind their name, I will gleefully read that fucker and take notes.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:27 AM on October 11, 2016


I am Sidney Blumenthal By Kurt Eichenwald
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm Sidney Blumenthal!
posted by mikelieman at 5:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Here. Let Adam Sandler be your guide.

I was gonna let this go because it's a borderline derail, but since it came back up:

RIGHT AFTER the end of that clip you posted Sandler (as Billy) pauses, turns back around and says "...ya double dare me??!?!?!" And then does grab her chest. And she scolds him, but laughs it off, and soon they are on their way to a romantic relationship.

So, yes, just as in all other matters, do NOT let Adam Sandler be your guide.
posted by SpiffyRob at 5:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


erratic meatsack: Have any officials in Philadelphia (or other locations Trump cast suspicion to) made any remarks about his scaremongering, by the way? I'm kind of worried about us brushing this off until something actually happens on Election Day. Especially since Trump keeps bringing this up and fueling his rallies with this rhetoric.

John Burns, Wake County Commissioner (North Carolina) sent this letter to the Wake County GOP.
posted by bardophile at 5:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


I wish he'd titled that damn article 'Trump repeats just-published Russian propaganda word for word' instead of getting all fucking cute with it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


Seriously, I'd love to know the magic gambit to make that escalation thing not happen (bleach is hard on the skin) but I've yet to see evidence that some variant of "What the hell is wrong with you?" is that thing.

Yo man, we'd all like to know what the magic gambit is, trust me! I mean what you're saying may be true, but just because something doesn't produce instant results doesn't mean it's not worth doing (planting seeds, etc). Maybe the very fact that you or someone like you would speak up could mean that other people present -- whether it's a woman being harassed or another man or boy who doesn't want to participate in "locker room talk" etc -- will mean that they know they have an ally and don't have to feel like going home and showering with bleach? Those both seem like worthwhile goals to me.
posted by alleycat01 at 5:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


(Caveating that I haven't seen the full Adam Sandler movie, so I'm just speaking to the general thought process, not the specific example set by that clip.)
posted by alleycat01 at 5:36 AM on October 11, 2016


RIGHT AFTER the end of that clip you posted Sandler (as Billy) pauses, turns back around and says "...ya double dare me??!?!?!" And then does grab her chest. And she scolds him, but laughs it off, and soon they are on their way to a romantic relationship.

Sigh. Time to go buy more bleach.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:38 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump’s truest believers start to worry: ‘You could easily lose this election’

“If things are done aboveboard and legally, the American people want Donald J. Trump. They do not like Hillary,” Ritz said. “Where I have been [Somerset County, PA], I have not seen two Hillary signs — and hundreds of Trump signs. That’s a fact.”

Well, sir, if you would leave Somerset County (pop 76,520) and drive an hour northwest to the City of Pittsburgh (pop 305,841) you might discover some different facts about yard signs and the popularity of various candidates.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [52 favorites]


Whoa there. You're telling a trump supporter to not make decisions on anecdata? That's how they make all their choices.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


At this point, I can't believe the Trump campaign is competent enough to have even been capable of supplying Somerset County with hundreds of signs.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


50 Shades of Consent
posted by petebest at 5:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sigh. Time to go buy more bleach.

Your point is a great one though, and the whole context of that scene really supports what you're saying, albeit accidentally. It's basically mocking the idea that standing up against behavior like that is a virtue.

I mean, the movie is from 1995. The "No, we're talking about sexual harassment here, and I don't have to take it" commercial is from 1993. While not a direct riff, it's absolutely an indirect dig at that mindset.

Thus entrenching the position and making the gambit all the more magical.
posted by SpiffyRob at 5:46 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]



"Desite winning the second debate in a landslide (every poll), it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give zero support!"

Follow the money, the great winner in this election is Big Popcorn
posted by Tarumba at 5:46 AM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


Something I've been thinking about a lot- do you guys remember this page written by a woman who investigated 'estranged parents forums'? She talks a lot about how the people drawn to these forums just fundamentally do not have the same relationships to emotion, logic, and truth as other people do. If something makes them FEEL bad, that means it is MORALLY bad, and they are either unwilling or incapable to confront the idea that maybe sometimes other people have the right to make choices that make them feel negative emotions. Meanwhile, validation of their emotions seems to them to be morally good. It seems like the exact same thing is going on with Trump Republicans right now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [72 favorites]


WikiLeaks Publishes Cryptic UFO Emails Sent to Clinton Campaign... From Former Blink 182 Singer

They finally got her on something substantive. How deep does the conspiracy go???
posted by Artw at 5:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


"Desite winning the second debate in a landslide (every poll), it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give zero support!"

I would love to see this shift from blaming nonexistent fraudulent voters of color to blaming Paul Ryan for Trump's loss. It is more accurate, and much more karmic.
posted by sallybrown at 5:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm pretty sure the all consuming tornado of destruction that will be post-loss Trump will zigzag inside and out of the party quite rapidly, but however much of it is aimed inwards I will enjoy mightily.
posted by Artw at 5:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Well, sir, if you would leave Somerset County (pop 76,520) and drive an hour northwest to the City of Pittsburgh (pop 305,841) you might discover some different facts about yard signs and the popularity of various candidates."

It never occurs to them we have to hide our support of Hillary because they are emotionally imbalanced? That's the case with me at least. Like hell I'm going to put up a sign or a bumper sticker. I prefer not to have a road rage bullseye on me.
posted by Tarumba at 5:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [39 favorites]


Speaking of Abraham Lincoln, he once said "All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years[,]" and it's even more true today.

When Germany went fascist, the combined might of the rest of the world was up to the task of defeating it.

If we go fascist, who will save us from ourselves? Who will save the world from us?
posted by whuppy at 5:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


WikiLeaks Publishes Cryptic UFO Emails Sent to Clinton Campaign... From Former Blink 182 Singer

Podesta loves to talk about UFOs. It's one of my great hopes that when he's part of the Clinton cabinet he'll have a chance to declassify documents relating to Roswell. Surely we don't need to still keep whatever Cold war secrets we were guarding from falling into Soviet hands, right? There's no way the tech worked on at Area 51 should still be a secret. Unless...

It's aliens.
posted by dis_integration at 5:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


In case you missed it over the weekend Glenn Beck officially sort of endorsed HRC. In other news bacon production is down because of the difficulty in keeping all the pigs on earth from flying off into the stratosphere.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Paul Ryan has a word of caution for the Ladies...
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm pretty sure the all consuming tornado of destruction that will be post-loss Trump will zigzag inside and out of the party quite rapidly, but however much of it is aimed inwards I will enjoy mightily.

I'm terrified they're going to double down on their "stab in the back" rhetoric since they're copying the fascist playbook from the thirties, me.
posted by winna at 5:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump’s truest believers start to worry: ‘You could easily lose this election’

Elder abuse is something that shocks and angers me on the same level as child abuse. I know Cathy Fresca is a hateful fool who is getting what she paid for in Donald Trump. I know it's bad form for a nice white liberal to worry in public about the hurt feelings of her racist elders. But damn if it doesn't break my heart to see that pitiful letter of hers, of one more woman Trump has used and discarded without bothering to remember her name.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm terrified they're going to double down on their "stab in the back" rhetoric since they're copying the fascist playbook from the thirties, me.

There will be a lot of that, too. A narrow win will be absolutely terrifying so fingers crossed it's more than that.
posted by Artw at 5:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Muslim-Americans Respond To A Caustic Campaign By Raising Money And Mobilizing
posted by Artw at 6:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


spitbull: "Even more to the point, here (from Wikipedia) are the key demographics of Somerset County PA:

The racial makeup of the county was 97.39% White, 1.59% Black or African American, 0.08% Native American, 0.21% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.31% from other races, and 0.40% from two or more races. 0.66% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race ... according to Census 2000."

Welcome to Pennsylvania, we've lots of white people.
posted by octothorpe at 6:04 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


WikiLeaks Publishes Cryptic UFO Emails Sent to Clinton Campaign... From Former Blink 182 Singer

If the introduction to his book is anything to go by, I bet these emails are the humblist thing that ever humbled. Dude talks about hanging out with ex-CIA, ex-military folks, probably in exchange for a meet and greet with their grandkids.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Josh Marshall: In other words, don't worry. The Trump campaign isn't infiltrated by Russian intelligence (probably). They're just awash in neo-Nazi and white supremacist propaganda.

So that makes it better.

But Trump has also explicitly reworked the Republican platform to conform to Russian's position on Ukraine.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


5 minutes ago Trump tweeted "Our very weak and ineffective leader, Paul Ryan, had a bad conference call where his members went wild at his disloyalty."
posted by cashman at 6:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


MeFi's own jscalzi: Trump, the GOP, and the Fall
Donald Trump is not a black swan, an unforeseen event erupting upon an unsuspecting Republican Party. He is the end result of conscious and deliberate choices by the GOP, going back decades, to demonize its opponents, to polarize and obstruct, to pursue policies that enfeeble the political weal and to yoke the bigot and the ignorant to their wagon and to drive them by dangling carrots that they only ever intended to feed to the rich. Trump’s road to the candidacy was laid down and paved by the Southern Strategy, by Lee Atwater and Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove, by Fox News and the Tea Party, and by the smirking cynicism of three generations of GOP operatives, who have been fracking a white middle and working class whose fortunes their social and economic policies have been crushing for years, never imagining it wouldn’t cause an earthquake.
posted by Gelatin at 6:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [84 favorites]


Daaaaaaamn Pry you gonna let him say that shit? Daaaaaaaaaamn 😹😹😹😹😹😹
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's running harder against the GOP than Clinton is.
posted by Etrigan at 6:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [44 favorites]


In other words, don't worry. The Trump campaign isn't infiltrated by Russian intelligence (probably)

They are thouroughly saturated with people who take money for Russian PR work, at what point does them having the ear of an utterly gullible candidate count as intelligence work?

I mean, Trump probably genuinely does not know what was in his intelligence briefings with Russia because Flynn was right there in the rooom shouting up a storm.
posted by Artw at 6:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


In re Russia, surely we can believe in some combination of Trump stooge-ery, Russian opportunism, international rich right-wingers sticking together and actual Russian security service activity, right? It doesn't need to be only one.
posted by Frowner at 6:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


As far as what to do when fellow-men get creepy, let me tell you a story. Strap in, there's a teal deer ahead. (cw: I talk about assault and gaslighting)

When I was 15-16 years old, I had several guy friends. At various points, most of my friends were guys. And I had one particular male friend, D, who one summer I got to be really close with (but he certainly wasn't my only close male friend, so I didn't think there was anything particularly odd or special about our friendship). But right from the start, it turns out, D was kind of grooming me. I'm not sure that he, a 16-year-old, was doing it consciously or would have known what grooming was, but it was basically a relentless covert assault on my boundaries. What started as private incursions when no one else was around blossomed into very public displays of dominance over me. (Please note, he was not my boyfriend, we were not dating, there was no romantic relationship between us.) We both went to single-sex Catholic schools that shared after-school extracurricular activities (being just around the block from one another) so during school hours I was safe, but after school I was constantly being inappropriately touched, in the open, in public, with all our other friends around. D would do things like put his hand up my skirt to see how far he could get before I yelled at him. He would come up to me in the hallway and press me against a wall with his whole body and not let me out. And when I protested, he would call me (again: in front of everyone) names implying that I was frigid and mean. It was a joke, you see. Between friends.

I didn't know what to do. I was 15 and kind of a late bloomer, I'd never had a boyfriend, never been kissed etc.... But I had this guys hands all over me, and his body all over me, for months. Until I finally decided this was whack (after things kind of came to a head one night that I stayed over at his house--as friends, with other friends) and I confronted him. It went about as well as you are imagining. He professed utter ignorance at what I was talking about, he was just joking, the full range of complete gaslighting. It was impossible for me to comprehend or deal with at 15.

And do you know how every single one of our friends (male and female), who had witnessed 90% of his assaults on me and his behavior towards me, reacted?

Go ahead, guess. You probably know, because it happens all the time.

They basically pulled a Paul Ryan. They didn't endorse him, but they didn't un-endorse him, and they all acted like I was the crazy one for suddenly enforcing boundaries which included DON'T INVITE THIS GUY ALONG WHEN YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO BE THERE TOO. No one ever said anything to him about his behavior, but just as importantly no one ever said to me, hey, we saw what went down with him and you and we just want you to know that's not okay. No one ever told me what he did was not okay. No one ever told him it was not okay, except me. I had to figure that out on my own and then I had to withstand full court press gaslighting and classic abuser behavior with no backup. Zero. None. Nada. And these were all sensitive theater club/literary magazine artsy types--that was the circle I ran in just in case anyone was imagining jocks and cheerleaders.

The whole gross situation was repeated years later when I was in college. Surprise, I immediately got into an abusive relationship (because I didn't really know much else--my first experience with being intimately touched by a guy was sexual assault and abuse), and when I extricated myself from that experience (with the help of my housemates, three amazing women who were the first people I'd ever encountered who told me WHOA THIS IS NOT OKAY), once again many other friends of mine pulled a Paul Ryan. Yeah, that guy is kind of a dick, but he's our dick, and honestly it's your fault for not being smart enough to not date him. My requests that he not be invited to parties in my own house (different set of housemates by that point) got nodded and smiled at and then promptly ignored. So I had to go to parties (sometimes in my own house) thinking I'd be safe only to have to deal with my abuser pulling Donald Trump looming in the background dominance body language until I could either leave or lock myself in my room.

Except for those three ladies who helped me extricate myself from an abuser, no one at any point talked to either of those dudes about their behavior. And I'm not talking about small friend-groups here but dozens of people. When that happens, all of those dozens of people are willfully participating in the gaslighting of the victim. Your silence is evidence that nothing bad is happening. The victims don't know that in your head you're thinking "wow what a creepy dick." And while I would have appreciated anyone actually just telling me personally that what I'd experienced was not okay and it really would have meant a lot to me, what would have meant even more to me was someone besides me telling these guys that what they'd done was sexual assault and abuse and not okay and we're going to respect our friend enough to help her be safe from you from now on, so buh-bye, asshole.

Whoa. Huh. I guess this phase of the election has been more triggering than I thought. My life has been full of Paul Ryans backing quietly away from abusers but never standing up to them and never reaching out to their to their victims. It's profiles in courage all the way down.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [174 favorites]


Seriously, I'd love to know the magic gambit to make that escalation thing not happen (bleach is hard on the skin) but I've yet to see evidence that some variant of "What the hell is wrong with you?" is that thing.

No doctor I, but from my own experience in convincing people I find one has to first judge the nature of your relationship with the person you're addressing and then find the best base of empathy in determining the avenue of address.

For people you don't know, for example, it can work fine to simply say something like "C'mon man, that isn't cool." if you can project sufficient confidence or authority to make it seem like a simple fact. It avoids labeling the person as something, well, deplorable, and it needn't escalate the situation if the manner of address isn't personally aggressive. It isn't the kind of thing that changes attitudes by itself, but it can call the belief in the normality of the statement into question.

The better you know someone, the more empathy one can show makes persuasion more likely. If you can make the discussion seem less judgmental of them as a person and more a discussion of the way things are and who they want to be seen as being, then the conversation is more likely to take some root, even if it isn't going to be immediately adopted as truth or anything so dramatic. As much as its possible, when the person you are communicating with seems worth talking to, try to take things from their point of view and move from there rather than starting off talking about how wrong they are or anything more aggressively confrontational.

If the discussion can stay on relatively neutral terms, not being directly about them and you, then it allows the person more room to maneuver to save face and come to their own conclusions if you can lead them near enough to see it. Letting the person make the realization without it seeming to be a demand makes it far more likely they'll adopt the attitude as it seems more organic and came from their own perspective. If you can do this while seeming to keep the discussion free of drastic immediate consequence, that is to say you aren't threatening your relationship with them or their relationship with others into account then it can potentially be received as an honest attempt for both of you to advance a better understanding. It's also best, if possible, to avoid confrontation in front of others. Keeping the conversation private makes it feel less judgmental or risky, whereas being called out in front of others adds to the stakes.

Of course if you hear someone saying something potentially criminal, that's a whole different issue where it may be best to get other authorities involved since even cowing them into silence isn't likely to change their behavior enough to prevent them from their behavior.


In all these sorts of things, I find it best to keep in mind the idea Clinton espoused in her speech to Goldman Sachs; there is a difference between public and private conversation, what we might say as a group in regards to women's rights should be more assertive and unyielding as that is the necessity of the demand, but in private when one wants to change minds, it is much better to use more variable and empathetic tactics that recognize the variety of backgrounds and experiences we all have. As groups those differences are rightly minimized for the sake of justice for all, but individually there needs to be more nuanced understanding to provide the best paths to that communal idea of justice.

Or that's how it has worked for me anyway, as always YMMV.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Here is an interesting article on more indirect Russian influence (troll farms) by Adrian Chen

The Real Paranoia-Inducing Purpose of Russian Hacks (New Yorker)
posted by Tarumba at 6:23 AM on October 11, 2016


Well, yes, but even more segregation! I believe PA is roughly 82/12/6 white/black/Hispanic right? And yet Somerset County is 98% white.

A little back of the napkin math, well over half of the black population is in Philadelphia and Allegheny counties, leaving the rest spread out among the other 65 counties.
posted by splen at 6:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Haven't checked in in 12+ hours but I had to post this from NPR: GOP Strategist Expects October To Be Full Of Presidential Campaign Surprises

It's a pretty run-of-the-mill summary of the state of the party in the wake of Ryan's admission to congress(wo)men that they should do whatever they need to get reelected notable for two quotes. When asked by Montagne what Republican operative Mac Stipanovich thinks of those still backing Trump, he says that they "are lying facedown in the koolaid." And when asked if he would be voting for Hillary Clinton, he said in a Southern accent the likes of which you don't often get out of Florida "My natural inclination would be to lie to you and say that as a lifelong republican who has never voted for a democrat I will not vote this year, but I cannot lie to you. I hate Donald Trump with a passion I usually reserve for snakes and will be voting for his opponent Hillary Clinton."
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [82 favorites]


Reading the stuff upthread about boys using Trump's language to harass girls really brought back some stuff, mostly helplessness.

That was the deal when I was in junior high and high school - that boys would say disgusting, scary things to you and it was on you, on you like a bucket of blood in Carrie. They weren't the ones who were humiliated, you were. It was almost better if there were no witnesses, because then it was just horrible but at least other people didn't stand there laughing at you.

And the helplessness - you knew that no one would do anything, and you knew that it would be almost impossible even to tell a teacher or another adult what had happened, because how could you repeat that language to an adult, even if you knew they'd help, which you didn't. It was much more likely that they'd say that boys were like that.

Just this dull feeling of absolute helplessness - every day you had to walk into that building and face that abusive language and humiliation. Every day for years, and no one would help.

I can't overstate how this experience of years and years of helpless submission to abuse has marked my entire adult life.

If anyone is hearing about boys at school using this Trump language to girls, they need to do whatever it takes to get the school to shut it down.
posted by Frowner at 6:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [118 favorites]


NYT: Donald Trump’s Sad, Lonely Life: Trump breaks his own world record for being appalling on a weekly basis, but as the campaign sinks to new low after new low, I find myself experiencing feelings of deep sadness and pity.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Have any officials in Philadelphia (or other locations Trump cast suspicion to) made any remarks about his scaremongering, by the way? I'm kind of worried about us brushing this off until something actually happens on Election Day. Especially since Trump keeps bringing this up and fueling his rallies with this rhetoric.

It's been debunked several times, along with a lot of other conservative paranoia about voter fraud in Philly. But I could have sworn I saw something from not just Philly, but their local GOP, that refuted it as well. I'll see if I can dig it up.

There's no way the tech worked on at Area 51 should still be a secret. Unless...

I thought it was already confirmed that it was just tests of various iterations of the stealth technology that went into the F-117?
posted by zombieflanders at 6:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is purely anecdotal, but this is what I've noticed about yard signs in Pennsylvania. When you go out into the rural areas of PA there are a lot of Trump signs, even ones that look like mini-billboards and say "Make America Great Again" along the bottom.

I've been to a few events in rural PA this past few months, including county fairs (I go for the livestock, but stay to enjoy cutting edge junk food technology). At most of these events, even if there isn't a formal booth, will be a few people handing out Trump yard signs for free. At the Westmoreland county fair I noticed that there were a lot of leftovers, but that doesn't mean that they didn't give out quite a few. (Also at the Westmoreland county fair: a chance to win a 'Hillary for Prison' t-Shirt, which I will attribute to ingenuity in parting people with their money.)

Yard signs just came in for the Democratic volunteer offices after weeks of waiting. All of the Hillary signs you see were either ordered by someone ages ago for $20 or given to someone who volunteered. The offices are instructed not to just give yard signs away because they would already be long gone. So every Clinton/Kaine sign you see is a supporter in money and/or sweat.
posted by Alison at 6:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's amazing how many GOPers seem utterly convinced there will be more Trump tapes. I can't tell if they know something we don't or just assume, like we do, that the monster has monstered all over the place.
posted by selfnoise at 6:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm a Philadelphia voter. Our primaries are the election, because we're so heavily Democratic here. Once the primaries are over, the election is a foregone conclusion. The Republican Party puts up a cheerful patsy to stake out some legitimacy.

If any unofficial Trump poll watchers come to my neighborhood, I'm worried. Not because they pose a threat, and not because I'm making a threat. It's because there is the very real possibility they could piss my neighbors off. I don't like it when my neighbors get pissed off. Let me explain: You don't call the police in my neighborhood. Except maybe when there's gunfire. And not always even then.

Oh, dear.
posted by Peach at 6:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Haven't checked in in 12+ hours but I had to post this from NPR: GOP Strategist Expects October To Be Full Of Presidential Campaign Surprises

I missed that in the car this morning. Great listen.
posted by rp at 6:33 AM on October 11, 2016


It's amazing how many GOPers seem utterly convinced there will be more Trump tapes. I can't tell if they know something we don't or just assume, like we do, that the monster has monstered all over the place.

We know they exist (the Apprentice hot mic tapes). We've even heard a snippet of what they contain (the "I'm a skin guy" report). And there are rumours about the N-word. Clinton people are 100% working to get those tapes leaked as we speak. If we don't see another bombshell Trump tape before the next debate, or at the very least, by Halloween, I'll eat my shoe, Herzog-style.
posted by dis_integration at 6:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oops, sorry, not to belabor my already overlong claim, but I lost a paragraph there.

Remember that you don't need to convince people of switching their entire mindset to match with yours all at once, the goal is to just change the immediate behavior first, so even adopting something of a persona more congruent to their own can help if it leads to some change. So in the first example, saying something like "Unfortunately nowadays that behavior can get you busted." can lead to some chance of influencing behavior without threat of escalation since you've assumed a position of some matched space. This can be a useful way to pursue discussions with people you don't have any other immediate relationship with that keeps you safe from physical confrontation. Small steps can still be useful, don't feel the need to change the entire world all at once especially if you could be putting yourself in harm's way doing so.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


That was the deal when I was in junior high and high school - that boys would say disgusting, scary things to you and it was on you, on you like a bucket of blood in Carrie. They weren't the ones who were humiliated, you were. It was almost better if there were no witnesses, because then it was just horrible but at least other people didn't stand there laughing at you.

OH god yes the helplessness of knowing that no one will help you or even privately tell you it sucks. That there's a whole system of contempt and violence that you suffer and no one cares or even sees. I noticed the guys who said nothing and stopped trusting them, too, because there's no way to tell if they're silent because they're afraid or because they agree.
posted by winna at 6:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


I thought it was already confirmed that it was just tests of various iterations of the stealth technology that went into the F-117?

But that's what THEY want you to think, isn't it?
posted by Artw at 6:38 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey, Louisiana keeps getting left out of these democratic "high impact races" things, but Louisiana could elect a democratic senator that will work on Climate Change. that's a big deal.

We have a runoff system in Louisiana, and Trumpists staying home could make the runoff Democrat vs Democrat. please consider donating to our Senate race, which goes through December, into a second, runoff election.

We got a democratic governor elected in the wake of Jindal and Vitter imploding, when no one thought we could do it, including the state democratic party. Please help us continue this winning streak.
posted by eustatic at 6:39 AM on October 11, 2016 [48 favorites]


Okay, so this Trump/Ryan feud is getting hotter by the minute (thanks to Cheeto Jesus's unbelievable inability to let anything slide) and I don't see Ryan acquiesing and coming back around to support the R candidate.

So, at what point does Ryan realize that if Trump actually wins, he is in a WORLD of trouble? If Trump wins, what does Ryan think is going to happen to him? Is the bully still going be okay with pushing across the bullshit boilerplate GOP agenda, or more likely will he do EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER to mock/humiliate/remove Ryan from power? If Ryan realizes this, will he do things behind the scenes to ensure Trump has no shot in hell in winning? Will he vote Hilary?

Seriously, the nastier the Ryan/Trump feud gets, the more likely Ryan goes from passive disapproval to actively supporting the other candidate. Because while Paul Ryan the politician may still have a future in Hilary's America, I don't see anyway he has power with Trump the vindictive Tyrant handing out "justice" to his enemies.
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


If we don't see another bombshell Trump tape before the next debate, or at the very least, by Halloween, I'll eat my shoe, Herzog-style.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if anyone with additional Trump bombshells has decided to sit on them until after the next debate. He's already shown that he's desperate and willing to stoop to tasteless stunts for revenge, and no one wants to give him the time or excuse for that.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


In typical NYT fashion, they feel pity for Trump and write and huge long form piece on HRC literally rehashing the same garbage criticism and back seat driving that's been plaguing her for the entire last eternity. Gargh.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think Ryan's less worried about Trump than he is the base supporting him. He doesn't think Trump stands a chance, but can't bring himself to risk alienating the deplorables 'cause he has no vision for the GOP without them.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones?

From an evangelical friend of mine on Facebook:

Trump is anti-Christ. I do not mean that he is the semi-demonic figure of dispensationalist eschatology; I mean it in the sense that John used it in 1 John. He stands for everything that I believe Christ is against, stands against everything I believe Christ is for, and I can never endorse such a man, under any circumstances. His words, his actions, and his history all lead to me to the conclusion that he has even gone so far as to pretend to bow his knee to the King of Kings because he wants people who have done so to vote for him. I am utterly opposed to voting for someone who dares to blaspheme in such a way.

One that I haven't seen as much is that it is expressly unBiblical to cheat an employee or worker out of their rightful wages

There's also this, from Jesus's brother James:

Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.

I've also been fond of Psalm 52 this year, which could almost have been written about Trump:

Why do you boast, O mighty one,
of mischief done against the godly?
All day long you are plotting destruction.
Your tongue is like a sharp razor,
you worker of treachery.
You love evil more than good,
and lying more than speaking the truth.
You love all words that devour,
O deceitful tongue.
But God will break you down forever;
he will snatch and tear you from your tent;
he will uproot you from the land of the living.
The righteous will see, and fear,
and will laugh at the evildoer, saying,
“See the one who would not take refuge in God,
but trusted in abundant riches,
and sought refuge in wealth!”
posted by EarBucket at 6:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [51 favorites]


Greg Sargent: Republicans fed the monster for far too long. Now he’s devouring them. (emphasis in original)
With the Republican Party cracking up over whether to continue to support Donald Trump’s imploding presidential campaign, the Post reports this morning that Democrats are beginning to think they have a genuine chance at recapturing the House of Representatives.

Most of the evidence suggests that this remains a real long shot. But some new internal polling by Democrats hints at a dynamic that appears to be taking shape and is interesting in its own right: It may be too late for Republicans to gain much from distancing themselves from Trump.

The Post report notes that new polling conducted for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee has found that tying the generic House Republican candidate to Trump hurts him or her, but crucially, the generic House GOP candidate is also hurt if respondents are told that he or she has recently withdrawn support for Trump[.]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:45 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Just a note about "locker room culture." The thing about middle school boys is that they are, at least in the beginning, smaller and weaker than middle school girls, so they are actually a little intimidated. The misogynistic culture reinforces their dreadfulness (not to mention that girls at that age are also as crazy as they are, and a good part of the time meaner). I taught sixth grade boys for ten years, and fifth grade boys for twelve years before that, and they were pretty consistently intimidated by girls. You should have heard the swimmers whining when a local coeducational school sent their girls to the swim meet along with the boys. And, as my Halloween photos from school show, middle school boys are often identical to prepubescent girls when they put on their sisters' uniforms as a costume.

Trump should be past that point. He is a lot bigger than Clinton. But I think his supporters regress to their middle school selves somehow when they look at him. He's the kid who hit puberty early, who plays on the middle school varsity football team in sixth grade, who slams other kids up against lockers when the teachers aren't looking, and he's on their side. They think.
posted by Peach at 6:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ryan like Pence is watching his 2020 aspirations go up in flames.

He can't control his own caucus because he's trying to lead a house full of petulant children
The Trumpistas loathe him because he's no rah rah Go Trump!
His milquetoast "I neither endorse him or de-endorse him" stance shows a complete lack of leadership.

He's apparently basically said to his own caucus that it's every man for themselves in regards to making sure they are on lifeboats when the SS Trump goes under.
posted by vuron at 6:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


I think Ryan's less worried about Trump than he is the base supporting him. He doesn't think Trump stands a chance, but can't bring himself to risk alienating the deplorables 'cause he has no vision for the GOP without them

Agreed- hopefully Ryan is smart enough to see the polling/writing on the wall and determine Donald has no shot. However, if I was in his position and thought there was even a 20% chance at Trump winning, I would have to actively work towards his defeat. The best case scenario (for him) has to be focusing on fighting the Hilary administration; there is no chance at him passing his legislation in under President Trump. (to be fair there never was, but at least he could maintain that illusion when the Donald was still sucking up to him and saying "sure I'll sign whatever you want" behind the scenes.)
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN says - In 27 states where data have been made available so far, early votes have been cast or absentee ballots returned by at least 455,878 people. In most of those states, the data cover a period through Thursday, the day before news broke of the 2005 video of Trump, others cover a period ending earlier, and no state total can reflect ballots that had been mailed but not yet received or tallied by election officials, meaning the total number of votes cast before Friday's campaign-altering news is likely greater.

So, half a million people have already voted. Game on.

(didn't link to the CNN story - autoplaying video of the Trump non-apology...)
posted by Devonian at 6:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Now that it looks like he's losing the war against the Democrats, Trump's turning his guns on the GOP. I think he's found a fight he can win.
posted by klarck at 6:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


"We got a democratic governor elected in the wake of Jindal and Vitter imploding, when no one thought we could do it, including the state democratic party. Please help us continue this winning streak."

Even though we're a heavily red state with only 8 electoral votes I never let that stop me from going to the polls anyway. I can put in my vote for the pres that might be a throwaway but I can also support everyone else trying to un-fuck everything Jindal did to us.
posted by komara at 6:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


[Paul Ryan] doesn't think Trump stands a chance, but can't bring himself to risk alienating the deplorables 'cause he has no vision for the GOP without them.

More precisely, he won't have the votes in the House to do anything and his Speakership will end and he'll be in early retirement drinking margaritas with John Boehner.

The split isn't just a base voters / elected officials divide anymore. There are now enough Trumpists in the caucus itself to deny a working majority to the party. It's been nearly impossible for them even with a 30-seat cushion and that's about to get slashed (and the seats to be lost will be disproportionately moderate, almost by definition).

Paul Ryan's best shot to get his agenda implemented eventually is actually for Hillary to win and take the House narrowly, that way he could fulminate ineffectively as Minority Leader for a couple years and try to reunite the party.

The House Republican caucus won't survive the internal crises that come up every few months with debt ceilings and budgets and, you know, any common-sense, moderate and wildly popular legislation that the Trumpists don't like.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now that it looks like he's losing the war against the Democrats, Trump's turning his guns on the GOP. I think he's found a fight he can win.

Trump right now.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:02 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


If one of the side effects of this election is that Ryan gets destroyed by the same crazies in his caucus that drove Boehner out, well, all I can say is it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
posted by tocts at 7:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to. [real]

Thank heavens, I was getting kinda bored of the restrained, nuanced Donald Trump we've been seeing all these months....
posted by splen at 7:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [85 favorites]


Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 6m6 minutes ago

It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to.

0_o

I need to... POPCORN, NOW DAMNIT, I DON'T WANT EGGS FOR BREAKFAST ANYMORE
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


It won't just be a matter of nose counts. The GOP will be the major recipient of the cosmic meteor storm of Trumpian shitstormery, conspiracy theories, vituperation and malice that will streak across the skies after November 9. Irrespective of the result. This election is going to be relitigated to infinity, or at least until Donald drops dead of apoplexy.

It won't be pretty.

(And that last tweet - oh, boy. No need to wait 'til November!)
posted by Devonian at 7:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


seriously if there weren't already sausage and eggs cooking, I would make popcorn. except my husband might get judgy
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's also worth noting that the hatred for Paul Ryan isn't arising in a vacuum. There've been rumblings for a while, and it's one of the reasons the fight to unbind the delegates was so hard, because people thought Ryan would somehow be nominated. I know this may seem frankly bizarre, but he's too moderate for the anger wing of the party.
posted by corb at 7:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


I just... I wish I could pop popcorn. I love popcorn. Like, non-memetically, I do genuinely adore popcorn. But I just can't turn on the air-popper over this because Trump taking off his [tiny] gloves just means that more people are going to get hurt, he's going to encourage more people to behave even more deplorably to their fellow-citizens, and I just can't take pleasure in him going down in flames if it means he's going to take the sanity of the nation along with him.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


Good. Can't finish off motherfuckers like him until they reveal their final form anyway.
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to.

First of all... let me talk about vaping.
posted by selfnoise at 7:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [58 favorites]


The bizarreness of the Trump-fan love for the Soviet Union has boggled my mind; I can only explain it by assuming that they can't hold more than one foreign enemy in their brains at a time. Right now, it's ISIS/Mooslims, whereas a few years ago it used to be Commies.

I'm not anxious to bring back Red Scares or anything, but conservatives outright embracing the Soviet Union is like finding out your dad who formerly loved Neil Sedaka is now really into N.W.A.
posted by emjaybee at 7:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


If there wasn't the underlying suggestion of physical violence against wayward Republicans that are turning their back on the God-Emperor I would be more schadenfreudean right now but the rhetoric that Trump is using is painful close to the rhetoric that is used when dictators engage in internal purges.

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if some of his white nationalist cohort engages in violence against perceived traitors.
posted by vuron at 7:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


If one of the side effects of this election is that Ryan gets destroyed by the same crazies in his caucus that drove Boehner out, well, all I can say is it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.

Make no mistake, Ryan was well aware of the crazies before he took this position. They are the main reason why he didn't really want it in the first place and why he put a bunch of preconditions on his acceptance.

I know this may seem frankly bizarre, but he's too moderate for the anger wing of the party.

Of course he is. He wants unreasonable things but he is willing to negotiate to get only 90% of what he wants. The fact that 90% of what he wants is extremely beneficial to the right is irrelevant, because the acts of compromise and negotiation are PROOF that RYAN is A SECRET DEMOCRAT and COLLUDING WITH EVIL and REPUBLICAN IN NAME ONLY and A HORRIBLE ISLAMIC TURNCOAT and WE KNEW IT ALL ALONG.
posted by delfin at 7:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


So is there really a chance that a sizeable amount of Trumpian die-hards vote Donald and don't bother with down-ticket, while trad GOPers vote down ticket and abstain/vote Hillary for president? Could be extinction event for Republicans as currently known? (No idea how likely this is, just extrapolating from latest trends and Trump loosing those shackles).
posted by Gratishades at 7:18 AM on October 11, 2016



Heh. I'm doing a course in negotiation right now. Today's chapter is on perception, cognition and emotion.

"Negotiators sometimes maintain commitment to a course of action even when that commitment constitutes irrational behavior on their part. This is an example of a broader psychological phenomenon know as 'escalation of commitment' "

In summary:
-Happens because of bias in perception and judgement
-People decide a course of action
-People seek confirming and supportive evidence that their course is right and ignore other evidence
-people tend to be biased towards consistency (don't like change), things are set in stone
-Desire for consistency exacerbated by desire to save face, admitting being wrong is embarrassing and or shows weakness. People don't like admitting they've failed

= seemingly irrational and escalating behaviour - 'doubling , tripling down' etc

Yep sounds about right.
posted by Jalliah at 7:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


I just can't take pleasure in him going down in flames if it means he's going to take the sanity of the nation along with him.

Honestly, I've been operating since about April that there would be peri-election violence. I don't think the deplorables can be riled up much more; at this point, the course is already set for that.

What I am happy about is the fact that we might finally see the full intraparty blowup that the country has needed the GOP to have for some time now. In a few years, God willing, Trump will be a bankrupt joke of a nobody. The agenda of the oligarchy, though, will be alive and well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]



George Takei @GeorgeTakei
At a speech today in PA, Trump said he considers himself "a blue collar worker, in a way." Right. That's like me claiming I'm a ladies man.

Well, strictly speaking, Takei does attract interest from women, and rightly so, unrequited as such interest may be...
posted by ocschwar at 7:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


emjaybee: The bizarreness of the Trump-fan love for the Soviet Union has boggled my mind; I can only explain it by assuming that they can't hold more than one foreign enemy in their brains at a time. Right now, it's ISIS/Mooslims, whereas a few years ago it used to be Commies.

Why U.S. conservatives love Russia’s Vladimir Putin (Washington Post, August 25, 2014, but I think the reasons still stand)
  • Many want a leader in Putin's iron-cast mold, free of the fluff and frills of American politicking
  • Others floated cultural arguments, including a hefty dose of prejudice and Islamophobia, explaining why Putin's brand of politics was preferable to the version they believe is espoused by the White House
  • And some seemed a bit confused about where the Soviet legacy was more apparent (Obama and his ilk are the pinkos, Putin is the real smart and competent leader)
The article quotes from comments left on Drudge Report article, and are a look inside some people's views on Putin and Russia.

Personally, I think it's because some people prefer the image of a Strong, White Man versus what they imagine as a Weak, Academic Black Man as their leader.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


The bizarreness of the Trump-fan love for the Soviet Union has boggled my mind;

In discussing the Kurt Eichenwald story, Josh Marshall reminds us of something that's been well-established for a while now: white nationalists make common cause with Russians for still-hard-to-understand reasons, and pull a lot of their material from Russian websites, which are known outlets for Russian troll-farm operations. We already know that American white supremacists are fans of Trump, so it's not hard to imagine that they're also feeding Russian media/propaganda into Trump's base.
posted by fatbird at 7:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


But what is Trump trying to negotiate?

Is he trying to get bought out by the Republican elite?

Is he trying to get to retire to a private island in the south Pacific?

Right now he just seems like a bomb-throwing loonie and threats to just tear it all down seem like weakness rather than strength.
posted by vuron at 7:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't usually talk about it , but vuron is right. My #NeverTrump colleagues and I have been getting threats and harassment for months now. Nothing at my house, thank God, but still concerning.
posted by corb at 7:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [55 favorites]


I think it's just Being Bad At History.

They love Putin because he's a oligarchic nationalist and they're oligarchic nationalists. That's easy. And Putin is from Russia. And Russia used to be called something else? Something Union Something Something, with a pretty rad red flag? Awesome!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think he has any kind of hidden plan at all because he has exactly zero interiority. He's all urges and reactiveness and it's somehow got him here, mostly by not having any opposition.
posted by Artw at 7:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


But what is Trump trying to negotiate?

Respect.
posted by Devonian at 7:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


As for the GOP Russia love, well it turns out that after decades complaining about it being corrupt, communist and murderous only one of those things was an actual problem.
posted by Artw at 7:28 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Right now he just seems like a bomb-throwing loonie and threats to just tear it all down seem like weakness rather than strength.

He's a pathological narcissist. He needs the attention. The love of the crowds. He thrives on it and when it starts to dissipate, he'll do just about anything to get a fix again.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I was at Hillary Clinton's speech last night at Ohio State. You should all congratulate me for laughing at the anti-abortion protester trying to antagonize me and at the Young Republican who told me that by supporting Hillary Clinton I am supporting rape culture.

It was nice being surrounded by a lot of other Democrats. Apparently this was her largest audience of the campaign (they said 18,500 people), and the crowd was mostly enthusiastic. I have a lot of friends who took their young daughters, and I was surrounded by a lot of international students. It was a solid speech, and she was definitely playing to the crowd. Lots of stuff about student loan debt, climate change, and Roe V. Wade. There was also a contingent of steel workers (one of the unions had a big group there), and so there was also a bit about how Ohio manufacturing should be great again and down with illegally flooding the market with, and purchasing, Chinese steel! She got in some good post-debate digs, and all in all I'm still pretty pleased to be casting my vote in Ohio for her! Early voting starts tomorrow, so I'll get my I Ohio Voting sticker soon.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [66 favorites]


Also, I can't remember if I told you about the white supremacist "volunteer security groups" at the convention blocking some delegates from leaving their hotel rooms, but if they're willing to do that stuff to Republicans at a Republican event, I don't want to imagine what they might do at the polls.
posted by corb at 7:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [53 favorites]


It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to.

WOW. Y'all this is going to be a doozy. Like... this is manic break talk right here. I am fully expecting there to be some kind of violence out of Trump's campaign or Trump personally before this election is done or in the immediate aftermath. Just, wow.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


You have my condolences corb. The forces that Trump is playing around with are terrifying and toxic to our democracy. We know that there is a core of really hateful people hiding around the fringes of the Republican party and Trump has been playing them like a fiddle since the start of the Birther movement.

At the risk of sounding like I'm doing a "No true Republican" bit it's clear that there are elements that are attracted to Trump not because he promises tax cuts and economic growth but because he's fundamentally a bully that will bully and allow them to bully their enemies.

These people tend to see everything through the lens of us vs them and tend to reserve some of the worst of their venom for those that they perceive to be internal enemies (RINOs, etc). I'm really not even remotely shocked that the #neverTrump organizers are getting threats and it sounds like GOP members even extremely conservative ones are getting threats and harassment.

It doesn't take much for members of these group to lose whatever grip on morality that they have remaining and actually act out their violent threats and fantasies.
posted by vuron at 7:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


I can't really parse that tweet. What does it mean? I guess he can sort of say whatever he wants because it doesn't really matter anyway, but if we assume that words have meanings, would it mean that the party gave him his walking papers? And given that most of his local offices are funded by the party, is it pretty much game over?

So many questions.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


What makes them think these guys are full of shit? Serious question.

Im fairly young, but I'm comfortable throwing out "being naive" and "not having one of them turn out to blow up in your face as an honest to god predator"

I knew a guy like this all through high school and college, and for some time after. He always said shit like when it was ~just the boys~. We all rolled our eyes, and told him to shut up pretty often. He always talked up how he was such a "pimp" and how women flocked to him and bla bla bla and we all thought he was corny and demonstrably knew he was full of shit. He had sort of a sad channer fedora vibe to him and always wore super cheesy outfits.

Then he assaulted one of my friends and, bragged about it, and confided in another(lady) friend, who was one of the only women he was ever "friends" with that he had done it and "didn't know what to do".

I later found out he had done a whole ton of shit like this.

Was most of what he said bullshit? Yea probably, but in retrospect way too much of it likely wasn't. We just thought he was corny and sort of creepy, but never enough to tell him to fuck off entirely especially since he'd just show up uninvited fairly often.

No one from my group of friends is, I hope, making that mistake again. Any time I hear a man saying any shit like that now it's way less of an eye roll and a big loud SHITBAG ALERT siren. Before, it was just "wow what a corny fuck, that's gross and doesn't make you cool".
posted by emptythought at 7:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


But what is Trump trying to negotiate?

Should have made it more clear, sorry it's not about negotiation per say but about cognitive bias that can affect people's positions and beliefs. "Escalation of commitment' speaks to the phenomenon of people still continuing to support Trump despite it all.
posted by Jalliah at 7:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


: white nationalists make common cause with Russians for still-hard-to-understand reasons, and pull a lot of their material from Russian websites, which are known outlets for Russian troll-farm operations.

I think it's Useful Idiots all the way down. Military and trade alliances among Western nations have really limited Russia's sphere of influence during and since the cold war. Russia wants to undermine those alliances.

Nearly every country in the west has a nationalist, isolationist fringe which opposes those alliances. Russia feeds those people the red meat propaganda they're hungry for -- anti-NATO, anti-EU, etc. They eat it up and then decline to bite the hand that feeds them.

Both western far right nationalist parties and Russia want to see trade and military alliances fractured and borders closed. It's natural that they work together and/or exploit each other when they can.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


That shackles tweet is good grist for the game I play where I try to imagine any other candidate ever saying Trump things.
posted by theodolite at 7:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


She's over 80% in PollsPlus.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


He's a pathological narcissist. He needs the attention. The love of the crowds. He thrives on it and when it starts to dissipate, he'll do just about anything to get a fix again.

Yeah I hate to pathologize but so much of what he does is so familiar to me because of my mother. It's like we decided to elect my mother as President, which is exactly as terrible as I would've imagined.

I feel a lot of empathy for Tiffany Trump since she seems to be more stuck and less actively choosing to be part of the horror show; I know what it is like to have a parent like Donald Trump and it makes me sad and very scared for her.
posted by winna at 7:39 AM on October 11, 2016 [41 favorites]


I'm so tempted to post stupid things Republican friends are saying on Facebook, but this thread is already long enough and I don't need to make all y'all mad as well, but I swear if they keep blaming Democrats for Trump I'm gonna lose it.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am both looking forward to and dreading what will now come out of Trump's mouth. Because apparently up until now we've only seen the "on best behavior" version.
posted by Justinian at 7:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She's over 80% in PollsPlus."

From the PEC today: Clinton Nov. win probability: random drift 95%, Bayesian 97%
posted by komara at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


I'm so tempted to post stupid things Republican friends are saying on Facebook, but this thread is already long enough and I don't need to make all y'all mad as well, but I swear if they keep blaming Democrats for Trump I'm gonna lose it.

I think what I'm getting at is that Facebook needs to add an eye-rolling emoji/reaction.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


This would never happen, but in my dream everytime Trump says "the election's rigged if there are any precincts in Philadelphia where I don't get votes" or "it was just locker room talk" or " I would ask Putin to help out in Syria," the tape would stop and a very calm and reasonable person would come on the screen and explain why that isn't just wrong but also dangerous.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I am both looking forward to and dreading what will now come out of Trump's mouth. Because apparently up until now we've only seen the "on best behavior" version.
Honestly I just expect more of the same. He's a big fan of empty bluster.
posted by selfnoise at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


He might pick up a few votes if he goes all in on Obama and Hillary are constantly covered in flies and smell like sulfur
posted by theodolite at 7:42 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


I can't really parse that tweet. What does it mean? I guess he can sort of say whatever he wants because it doesn't really matter anyway, but if we assume that words have meanings, would it mean that the party gave him his walking papers? And given that most of his local offices are funded by the party, is it pretty much game over?

So many questions.

I think that's way too complicated for Trump. I'm taking the meaning is that he has finally either gotten rid of or worn down everyone trying to advise him in his campaign. The only people left are the 100% yes men and women.

Donald does not like to be told what he should be doing by anyone.
posted by Jalliah at 7:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


At most of these events, even if there isn't a formal booth, will be a few people handing out Trump yard signs for free.

I saw a booth for the local GOP handing out signs at the regional state fair last month, and they were printed by the county party and had a different design to the ones coming direct from the campaign.

I still remember that the Obama campaign set an anti-yard-sign precedent (discussed here) because yard signs don't vote, the people who want free yard signs mostly won't contribute anything to the campaign, and supplying signs detracts from valuable work registering and canvassing supporters.
posted by holgate at 7:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh wow apparently the current defense for Trump's remarks is that Hillary likes Beyonce and Beyonce has some risque lyrics so yadda yadda both sides do it and quit acting so shocked liberals.

I'm like of all the performers you could try to loop into an attack on Hillary you choose Queen Bey? Do they truly have no idea what they are doing?
posted by vuron at 7:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [51 favorites]


The shackles tweet is not from an Android phone, so it's likely to be written by someone from his campaign and not by Trump himself, which maybe makes it scarier. (There were Android tweets about an hour ago.)
posted by gubo at 7:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here in Portland Maine the roadside signs for Trump are just now appearing. By far the most deployed signs so far: Gary Johnson.
posted by selfnoise at 7:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's really simpler than that; he's on tape admitting to sexual assault, and he's not in jail. In his mind, that means he can do anything and never be held accountable. There are no shackles.
posted by valkane at 7:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


From an evangelical friend of mine on Facebook:

Trump is anti-Christ. [snip]

It's refreshing to see that it's not just hypocrites all the way down.
But my overall impression is that for one evangelical's opinion like the above, you get 10 or so that agree that Clinton is the devil because unborn babies or something.
In any case, if I ever hear someone again that he's for a particular candidate because of old-fashioned "values", my first assumption (to be disproven) from this election season is on going to be that they are probably a hypocrite and possibly overall despicable human being.
Just like if they go on and on about the sanctity of family, they're probably serial philanderers.
posted by sour cream at 7:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


From jscalzi, elsewhere: Finally, I have very little patience for people who at this point vomit up some variation of “they’re both just the same, one is just as bad as the other.” It a lazy, contemptible lie, and it’s even lazier and more contemptible this year.

Yeah, I'm about done with those people too. They've had plenty of time to learn better and the evidence against the proposition is overwhelming. Anyone who repeats this lie is only marginally better than the Trumpers.
posted by Justinian at 7:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [42 favorites]


Over the last 24 hours, I've joined team "genuinely worried about what Trump is doing to America." He's gone too far with the fascist rhetoric, and I don't think this genie is going to go back into the bottle without a fight. I know I'm late to this party, but his whole campaign has been so gross that I guess I just didn't want to look very closely at what he was saying and doing. Once you open your eyes to it though and stop looking away, it becomes too obvious to ignore.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


Republicans are now admitting in their ads Trump is going to lose.

"I'll stand up to Hillary Clinton."
posted by chris24 at 7:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Disloyal R's are far more difficult than Crooked Hillary. They come at you from all sides. They don’t know how to win - I will teach them! [real]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


That shackles tweet is really... I wanna go for the popcorn but it's freaking me out. I am seriously scared for Melania and Barron and Tiffany right now. Ivanka and the boys don't live in the tower and have their own families but the other three, especially the ten year old, do they have any way out of there? They're trapped with this pathological narcissist who is losing prestige on the kind of scale tat most people with those mental issues never even get close to and that's a dangerous situation even when the stakes are much smaller and lower profile. Just like, jesus, stay safe you three.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Now he just sounds like a poorly translated JRPG.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [46 favorites]


Just idly - out of the many genuinely shocking things in this election cycle, I have to admit that the whole "Trump is being sued over an accusation that he raped a child but this has not ended his candidacy" thing is maybe the weirdest to me.

Trump is innocent until proven guilty, but I feel like in any other year even being sued over this kind of allegation would shut someone's candidacy down right quick. And yet it's gotten relatively little media and I didn't even know about it until this week.
posted by Frowner at 7:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [53 favorites]


Does anybody have a stockpile of Christian arguments against Trump, specifically non-catholic ones?

We got a whole country full of people who have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the ideas, not just that they are paying too much in taxes, but that taxation itself is bad, that government is bad, that wealth is how God indicates his approval, that poor people are poor because they don't want to work, that liberals are evil atheists who want to take the money that those rich people worked so hard for, and on and on. This may all sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me, but a lot of people's fundamental beliefs are built out of these bricks, and the bricks are not going to be taken from atop one another and laid aside because of some snarky chuckles that we enjoy among ourselves on this website. So if some serious Christians want to explain why serious Christians shouldn't and mustn't support this guy, I'm all for it.

Worth noting: sallybrown, KathrynT, triggerfinger have provided either comments or links to pieces providing Christian arguments against Trump.

Also, corb posted an insightful comment about the "secular religion" of America.

I posted in the last thread excoriating a (large) subset of evangelicals for their behaviour, which I consider cowardly, unbiblical and unpatriotic. Declared bias: almost certainly either Trump or Clinton is going to be the next US president. I see Clinton as the far better choice. This position is informed by my own Christianity, my own evangelicalism, and my best judgement. I don't really have a stockpile of arguments, but I can make a few additional ones to what I've seen. (Am I a "serious" Christian? Let me just say that a) I agree with Clinton that Jesus is the Son of God (can't find the link, someone halp), b) my worldview is intensely informed by the Bible, c) I've had the uncanny experience of hearing God speak to me about various things.)

Here are my arguments anyway.

1. God supports the healing of nations, not their division and destruction:

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. (2 Chron 7:14)

I put this verse first for a reason. I forgot to include this point in my last post, but it's highly instructive for evangelicals in the US right now. Pay close attention to what the verse says: the key to the healing of nations, from a Christian perspective, is for Christians to get their own house in order, not to use politics to enforce a certain set of values. The dynamic works like this: Christians repent and seek God's face -> God works to bring healing to the countries they live in. Evangelicals in the US today seem to think they need to "Christianize" the whole of society. No. You only need to "Christianize" yourselves, and well, there's some work to do. Partly this indicates a real lack of faith on the part of people advocating the Christianization of America: careful guys, aren't you falling afoul of 2 Timothy 3:5, where Timothy speaks ill of those Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof... valuing your own strength over God's? According to Paul, judgement begins at the house of God... so get yourselves in order and trust God to provide healing to the rest of society. (This is mainly dealing with the perspective of evangelicals, but now to Trump:)

2. Trump has no life to speak. He's instead spoken hatred, misogyny, division, and hurt. Hang on. Look at the standard of John 7:38, where Jesus says:

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.

Where has Trump provided life? He claims to be a believer, but where is the life? I just see bile.

3. Jesus's comments about purity, in Matt 15:11:

What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.

Can anyone seriously argue that Trump is seeking purity, or even some sort of standard? Jesus continues: (vv. 19-20)

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

These are what defile a person.

This is uncomfortable for only one nominee.

4. Matt 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

5. Jer 12:1-2. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all the faithless live at ease?

You have planted them, and they have taken root; they grow and bear fruit. You are always on their lips but far from their hearts.

Has one of the candidates had an easy life, despite a personal lack of anything good? Has the other had a struggle, despite personal effort and being under constant attack?

6. Romans 3:27. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

2 Cor 10:17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Gal 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

7. This is sneaky of me, but referencing the point above where I note that Clinton has professed the one thing that really matters in Christianity, namely that Jesus is the Son of God:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (1 John 4:2-3)

Is Trump willing to admit that Jesus is God? Then:

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? (Jesus in Luke 6:46)

8. the worker deserves his wages. (Luke 10:7, I think KathrynT mentioned this above. This is one you could quote directly.)

9. The whole of Exodus 32. God, err, kinda has an issue with idols. (In the sense of anything you put on top of God and prioritize.) The golden calf in this passage is particularly... acute. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Luke 12:34)

10. Similarly, Luke 18:18-23. Note Jesus's use of the Law. The issue isn't the wealth - it's the worship of it.

11. Trump's mocking of disabled people. John 9:1-3:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.

His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Trump seems to think that disabled people are worthy of ridicule. What's God's opinion? But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. (1 Cor 1:27) (Clinton has been particularly good in this regard)

12. Regarding taxes: Matt 22:17-21:

Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

That nicely brings me back to my first point: Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. Jesus is concerned with people's hearts, not their party registration. Does that mean you praise a demagogue? Absolutely not. Woe to those who call good, evil; and evil, good. Does that mean you keep your focus where Jesus intended it? Absolutely.

I'll wrap it up there. Two more things to note, though:

(From the Mother Jones article I link at the end)

Clinton's sense of divine guidance has been noted by others: Bishop Richard Wilke, who presided over the United Methodist Church of Arkansas during her years in Little Rock, told us, "If I asked Hillary, 'What does the Lord want you to do?' she would say, 'I think I'm called by the Lord to be in public service at whatever level he wants me.'"

I support that. Secretary Clinton, I affirm the road you are on. Fight the good fight, finish the race, keep the faith.

Last point: I've previously commented about The Fellowship. I stand by those comments. But I want to add, since the article in the previous thread was critical of the Fellowship, that I support a lot of what they are doing. Not all of it, but a lot.

More on Clinton's faith: 2007 Mother Jones piece, 2014 Time, 2016 ThinkProgress.
posted by iffthen at 7:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [119 favorites]


What's even more interesting about that "I'll stand up to Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi" ad is that it's a NRCC ad. That's basically the RNC and the various congressional election committees throwing in the towel.
posted by vuron at 7:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


And when asked if he would be voting for Hillary Clinton, he said in a Southern accent the likes of which you don't often get out of Florida

The likes of which you don't often get out of southern Florida perhaps, which is what most people think when they think of Florida. But when you drive north from Orlando you get real south, real fast.
posted by phearlez at 7:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


@brianstelter
"NBC source says there's a "mass hunt underway" for "Apprentice" transcripts/material..."
http://eepurl.com/cjstJH
posted by chris24 at 7:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


This election, though, amirite?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is innocent until proven guilty, but I feel like in any other year even being sued over this kind of allegation would shut someone's candidacy down right quick. And yet it's gotten relatively little media and I didn't even know about it until this week.

Trump has spent over a year building up a base of support that absolutely, categorically refuses to believe anything bad about their candidate. They live in an alternate reality. Any anti-Trump story, whether published by a liberal or conservative source, is by its very existence false.

This is a cult.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [44 favorites]


Hey, just a reminder on that iPhone/Android tweet thing. He's said several times that sometimes he just dictates tweets to an assistant rather than typing them in himself. Just because a tweet is from an iPhone doesn't mean it's generated by a lacky. It could just be him shouting across the room at an assistant because his [tiny] hands are too greasy from KFC to use his own phone and he is fundamentally incapable of waiting 5 minutes to express himself.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


I can't really parse that tweet. What does it mean? I guess he can sort of say whatever he wants because it doesn't really matter anyway, but if we assume that words have meanings, would it mean that the party gave him his walking papers?

I take it as a response to party Republicans distancing themselves, and especially to Ryan's "I won't support him but won't de-endorse him either" stance. Trump was "playing nice" [cough] in exchange for party support, but now he feels that contract has been broken, and he can revert to the full real deal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to.

How Donald Trump is imagining this moment.

What it looks like to everyone else.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


This is a cult.

Hey remember that terrible terrible fucking show The Following where the elevator pitch was "What if a psychopath started a cult of other psychopaths?"

Yeah... what if?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Even Christie is throwing him under the bus. When you've lost Reek...

@rickklein
Christie on Trump apology: "I didn’t think it was enough... I would have done it much differently."
posted by chris24 at 8:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


re: demons

we're ROFL over here in our Paris office because on Monday, I checked a weekly indicator that has a 6-month rolling total. And it just so happened that, this Monday, that total was 666. I hadn't watched the debate and had yet to read this thread. So I joked to colleagues, "hey I think this might be a sign, me being American and all, the devil is coming" and they were all, "what? 666? what?" because France is still like that and then "ohhhh riiiight the number of the devil LOL".

aaaaand then this. GUYS. GUYS. this is making me have to translate "journalists reporting about flies landing on Obama and Clinton being signs of the devil" into French. It does make for belly laughs?!

omigod this campaign season is so triggering. thank y'all for being here.
posted by fraula at 8:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


Maine Governor Paul LePage: "we need a Donald Trump to show some authoritarian power in our country and bring back the rule of law."

They're just admitting Trump is running for dictator, not President. And we know what "rule of law" means.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 AM on October 11, 2016 [60 favorites]


GUYS. GUYS. this is making me have to translate "journalists reporting about flies landing on Obama and Clinton being signs of the devil" into French.

ohhhh my god. I did notice that fly during the debate. I can't belieeeeeeeeeeeve this is a Thing!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:04 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Now he just sounds like a poorly translated JRPG.

CHECK OUT SEX TAPE. ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US. MOVE ON HER LIKE A BITCH.
posted by dis_integration at 8:05 AM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


From Tarumba's link about internationally-hosted troll farms:
The real effect, the Russian activists told me, was not to brainwash readers but to overwhelm social media with a flood of fake content, seeding doubt and paranoia, and destroying the possibility of using the Internet as a democratic space. One activist recalled that a favorite tactic of the opposition was to make anti-Putin hashtags trend on Twitter. Then Kremlin trolls discovered how to make pro-Putin hashtags trend, and the symbolic nature of the action was killed. “The point is to spoil it, to create the atmosphere of hate, to make it so stinky that normal people won’t want to touch it,” the opposition activist Leonid Volkov told me.
posted by amtho at 8:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


On the LePage thing, the end of that quote is hilarious/terrifying.

"Sometimes, I wonder that our Constitution is not only broken, but we need a Donald Trump to show some authoritarian power in our country and bring back the rule of law because we've had eight years of a president, he's an autocrat, he just does it on his own, he ignores Congress and every single day, we're slipping into anarchy."

We need a dictator, because our current dictator ignores Congress.
posted by knapah at 8:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [60 favorites]


his [tiny] hands are too greasy from KFC

Impossible: we know that he eats his KFC with a knife and fork (like he's not even from this planet).
posted by TwoStride at 8:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Do the Trumpistas think that Trump is going to lead an actual revolt against Washington.

Yeah the guys at his rallies probably have an uncomfortable amount of personal weaponry but Trump is not Caesar and a bunch of unruly, angry white dudes does not make for a modern day Legio XIII Gemina. There is no Rubicon to cross and even if there was that sort of craziness would get stamped out mercilessly.
posted by vuron at 8:08 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Sometimes, I wonder that our Constitution is not only broken, but we need a Donald Trump to show some authoritarian power in our country and bring back the rule of law because we've had eight years of a president, he's an autocrat, he just does it on his own, he ignores Congress and every single day, we're slipping into anarchy."

Authoritarian
Autocrat
Anarchy

One of these things is not like the others.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


With less than a month to go until Election Day, Donald Trump’s standing has plummeted with likely voters, falling from a dead heat just two weeks ago to a double-digit deficit behind Hillary Clinton, according to a PRRI/The Atlantic poll released Tuesday. Clinton holds a 49-38 lead over the Republican. Two weeks ago, a previous PRRI/Atlantic poll found Trump and Clinton tied at 43-43. Following the first presidential debate in Hempstead, New York, the Democrat broke out to a 47-41 lead. She has now built on that lead.

That’s the bad news for Trump. The worse news is that this poll likely does not include the full impact of a video, published Friday afternoon by The Washington Post, in which Trump boasts about sexually assaulting women. The poll was conducted Wednesday through Sunday, meaning some respondents were interviewed before the video’s release and some afterward. It also does not take into account the second presidential debate, in which Trump’s performance drew widely varying reviews.
Independents and Women Bail on Trump, Giving Clinton a Double-Digit Lead
posted by y2karl at 8:10 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


From above, re: the Russian propaganda connection...

white nationalists make common cause with Russians for still-hard-to-understand reasons

I don't find it that hard to understand. From what I've seen, white nationalism has a heavy undercurrent of repressed homoerotic worship of the "alpha male," which is the same imagery Putin uses for himself. They're totally OK with oppressive, totalitarian governments as long as it's a white alpha male doing the oppressing. The fact that the Russian government has started encouraging gay-bashing is just another sign that the current Russian government is the model our white nationalists think we should be following.
posted by dnash at 8:10 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm like of all the performers you could try to loop into an attack on Hillary you choose Queen Bey? Do they truly have no idea what they are doing?

It's like he actually wants zero, no, negative numbers of women to vote for him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


vuron: Trump is not Caesar and a bunch of unruly, angry white dudes does not make for a modern day Legio XIII Gemina. There is no Rubicon to cross and even if there was that sort of craziness would get stamped out mercilessly.

Only if we stamp it out. Who else is going to do it? If we all sit back and say "this can never happen, it'll get taken care of" then it won't be. Much of Hitler's rise has been attributed to the large swaths of the German public who just couldn't believe that the danger was real. That he was being hyperbolic, that he didn't really mean what he said, that surely cooler heads would temper him.

How long do we wait? The sooner the better. We've already waited too long. Trump won the primary in large part because people didn't seriously believe that someone so patently unhinged from reality could possibly win the nomination. He must not win the presidency. We must not take it for granted that cooler heads will prevail.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


Shit, now I'm worried the plunge in his polling numbers is too early and he may be able to pull something out in the next three weeks.

Because worrying, you know - that's what I do.
posted by Mooski at 8:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Disturbing the BeyHive definitely seems like a good way to get stung.
posted by vuron at 8:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump is not Caesar and a bunch of unruly, angry white dudes does not make for a modern day Legio XIII Gemina

Vorenus is horrified by Trump's lack of respect for the gods, because things should be as they were at the founding of the Republic. Pullo recgonizes a huckster when he sees one.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


So instead of fact-checking Donnie at the next debate, I'd love if the moderators stick to pointing out how at least a few of his suggestions are illegal, maybe even noting that illegally jailing your opponents was one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Josh Marshall at TPM: Polls seldom show actual free fall. But this looks a bit like free fall.
posted by sporkwort at 8:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Only if we stamp it out. Who else is going to do it?

I'm reading the point here as, "Trump commands a bunch of angry idiots with a lot of small arms, not an actual military force."
posted by VTX at 8:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


For the final debate, I'd be happy if the candidates just had to identify various foreign countries on a map and answer basic questions like, "how does a bill become a law?"
posted by TwoStride at 8:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [41 favorites]


He's going to split the vote on the right. If enough Trump followers refuse to vote R down-ticket because of perceived treachery, and #NeverTrumpers vote down-ticket but not for Trump as president, it's going to deliver all three wings of government to the Democrats.

The danger now could be Democrat complacency. Never has getting out the vote been more important.
posted by rory at 8:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Fight hate speech with free speech (Seems to be focused on making a kind of counter-narrative)
posted by amtho at 8:26 AM on October 11, 2016


WaPo: House Democrats believe Trump troubles give them real shot at retaking majority
Democrats think that Republicans are now stuck in the impossible position of either embracing their party’s presidential nominee and alienating swing voters critical to maintaining their hold on Congress or rejecting him and angering their base.

While a generic ballot tests shows a Democrat up by 7 points over any Republican lawmaker, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee’s poll — conducted nationwide by the Global Strategy Group — shows the Democratic candidate has a 12-point edge if the Republican recently withdrew their support from Trump. If a Republican lawmaker continues to support Trump, the private polling shows they are at a similar 12-point deficit.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Josh Marshall at TPM: Polls seldom show actual free fall. But this looks a bit like free fall.

What's scary is if you filter just on adults, Trump is winning. Thank heavens that's not the case with likely or registered voters.
posted by winna at 8:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump polling numbers before the big PGate leak were already bad. In fact most Political Science types were pretty much indicating that given the short period of time remaining and the gap he was facing last week he simply cannot possibly close the gap.

Post-PGate and Post-Debate polling is going to be a horrorshow for him and Congressional Republicans. He's going down to a massive defeat (current polling is strongly suggesting a likely 340 EVs for Hillary) and it just remains to be seen how many downballot Republicans he'll suck down into the void with him.

If the Democrats had actually put forth a stronger set of Senate and House candidates there could be some even more gains to achieve but unfortunately the Democratic slate seems to be largely populated by individuals unwilling or unable to seize on the opportunity Clinton is giving them.

Still massive negative polling for Trump and a YUUUGE Clinton warchest that can be spent on a ton of advertising in the next couple of weeks might still result in a wave election. In this case the tight time horizon might actually work against Democrats because the epic Trump flameout might actually be happening too late to really crater the popularity of Trump's fellow Republicans.
posted by vuron at 8:28 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently Access Hollywood planned to edit Billy Bush out of the tape.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:28 AM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Point taken VTX, but I would really like this to be settled without bloodshed. I think we're already at the point where at least isolated violence (what people are calling "stochastic terrorism") on Election Day is likely. Many of Trump's followers are exactly the kind of people who are most likely to take up arms against the government and against "undesirable" groups of citizens, and Trump is busily whipping them into a frenzy and priming them to do just that. He's been laying the groundwork for months, and his followers have been eating it up. An actual insurrection would be swiftly quashed (unless Trump were to somehow get the backing of a chunk of the military—terrifying thought) but I think we're already looking at increased racial and political violence both now and in the coming years, at a surge in hate crimes and domestic terrorism. It's plain as day, it's already happening, and so to claim that it can never happen is to shut your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and start yelling "LALALALALA!"
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's true that if it came down to the US military vs. a guerrilla force of yokels with modded AR-15s engaged in open rebellion in the streets, the military would win. Let's not let it get to that point though, huh?
posted by contraption at 8:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


There's so much to unpack in that LePage interview, which reflects on LePage himself, who is a damaged person, an abuse victim who abuses others, but also on toxic masculinity:
I will tell you one thing, as the head of state, is he going to protect our nation and fight the debt or is he going to go after interns? That's the bottom line.
Like Trump, he refuses to accept or even acknowledge Hillary Clinton as anything other than a front for Bill.
posted by holgate at 8:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


maybe even noting that illegally jailing your opponents was one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon.

My worry is that reminders of impeachment will only encourage those in the Religious Right who are not thrilled with Trump, but would actually like to see President Pence, turn out to vote trumppence.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:31 AM on October 11, 2016


538: What Trump’s Brag About Sexual Assault Reveals About This Election And Our Culture
blythe: I want to mention a little bit more polling about this tape: 61 percent of voters said it made them feel less favorable toward Trump, 28 percent said it didn’t change their view of the candidate, and 8 percent said it made them feel more favorably toward Trump.

maggiekb: Those 8 percent scare the shit out of me.
QFMFT
posted by zakur at 8:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [81 favorites]


From the PEC article linked upthread, where Clinton has a 95% chance of victory (emphasis added):
Reader Damien asks wonders if “one candidate leading an ‘open seat’ presidential race from wire-to-wire is almost unprecedented.” The answer is that we haven’t seen anything like it in over 60 years. The comparisons are 1952 (Eisenhower v. Stevenson), 1960 (Kennedy v. Nixon), 1968 (Nixon v. Humphrey), 1988 (G.H.W. Bush v. Dukakis), 2000 (G.W. Bush v. Gore), and 2008 (Obama v. McCain). Of these, the only race where one candidate led consistently from start to finish was Dwight Eisenhower, who eventually won by 11 percentage points (electoral outcome, 442-89).
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is up to one tweet an hour at this point. I'm interpreting the "shackles" tweet as: someone gave me back my phone and said "tweet away, Donald, do whatever the fuck you want, it's your funeral" right before they called everyone they knew asking if there was anyway they could salvage their careers at this point.
posted by dis_integration at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


Apparently Access Hollywood planned to edit Billy Bush out of the tape.

From that article: "'They could have released the tape and edited him [Billy Bush] out,' the source says of the individual that leaked the footage. 'That was the plan — they were trying to approve it and then someone leaked it.'"

Wow. They literally were engaged in a conspiracy to shield an enabler. Gross.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [69 favorites]


BTW, I think the Tolkien character Trump corresponds to is the Witch-King of Angmar, the leader of the Nine. Guiliani et al can flesh out the rest.

In Game of Thrones terms though, Mr "It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me" is 100% Aerys Targaryen.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just... I wish I could pop popcorn. I love popcorn. Like, non-memetically, I do genuinely adore popcorn. But I just can't turn on the air-popper over this because Trump taking off his [tiny] gloves just means that more people are going to get hurt, he's going to encourage more people to behave even more deplorably to their fellow-citizens, and I just can't take pleasure in him going down in flames if it means he's going to take the sanity of the nation along with him.

soren_, I hear your concern, and I also worry about violence around the election and the harm his normalization of bigotry is doing.

But I implore you to consider picking up a whirley-pop or similar device so that when you can't make popcorn, you can at the very least forego much better popcorn. Teaspoon of regular olive oil or two if you're feeling naughty or coconut oil if you're feeling quite naughty indeed, quarter cup of baby white, quarter teaspoon of flavacol.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is at Trump Tower, per a person close to him. Watching TV, tweeting. With Bannon & others who encourage his anti-estab R sentiment...
— Robert Costa @costareports
Shit, it really is the Bunker, isn't it?
posted by octobersurprise at 8:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


quarter cup of baby white

wait, what?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


In Game of Thrones terms though, Mr "It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me" is 100% Aerys Targaryen

Indeed, Aerys "Burn Them All" Targaryen is the best choice. Game of Thrones isn't the fantasy saga we deserve, but it is the fantasy saga for these times.
posted by nubs at 8:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Haven't checked in in 12+ hours but I had to post this from NPR: GOP Strategist Expects October To Be Full Of Presidential Campaign Surprises

It's a pretty run-of-the-mill summary of the state of the party in the wake of Ryan's admission to congress(wo)men that they should do whatever they need to get reelected notable for two quotes. When asked by Montagne what Republican operative Mac Stipanovich thinks of those still backing Trump, he says that they "are lying facedown in the koolaid." And when asked if he would be voting for Hillary Clinton, he said in a Southern accent the likes of which you don't often get out of Florida "My natural inclination would be to lie to you and say that as a lifelong republican who has never voted for a democrat I will not vote this year, but I cannot lie to you. I hate Donald Trump with a passion I usually reserve for snakes and will be voting for his opponent Hillary Clinton."

DynamiteToast, I just came to post the same thing. Hearing a Republican lobbyist/strategist on the radio say in his mellow Southern accent "I hate Donald Trump with a passion I usually reserve for snakes" warmed my heart. Maybe there is hope for the world.
posted by medusa at 8:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


quarter cup of baby white

wait, what?

They're more tender.
posted by Floydd at 8:38 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sad Puppy for President.
You really should get out of the bubble you're living in. Some of the reality is hilarious, but you're missing it!

See for example last May's Larry Correia on Trump:

"Me: I will never vote for Trump.
Trumpkins: Quit your whining butt hurt crybaby, you owe us your vote, so get in line!
Me: No
Trumpkins: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!"

"The best thing that ever happened for Hillary was you morons picking the one dude out of 15 she was the most likely to beat."

"Sad Wishful Thinking Republican: WHAAAAA? IF he isn’t lying recently, and IF he surrounds himself with good people (who he has been insulting and lying about for months) and IF this malignant narcissist listens to advice and IF his clownish behavior is just an act and IF he doesn’t totally drag down the GOP and IF he doesn’t cost us the senate, then MAYBE he’ll be okay? WHAAAA?

[Correia:] Damn dude. That’s a lot of ifs. I want a pony."

"Trump is a bridge too far. We’ve had moderates and RINOs and held our nose and voted for them. But this isn’t a moderate or a RINO. This is an amoral statist authoritarian liberal, who got to where he was by being a huckster con appealing to anger and fear. He is a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. He is an insult to the founders, a disgrace to our people, and in the unlikely event he wins, will probably go down in history as the man who ended any hope of small government or individual liberty in America.

I won’t have that stain on my soul."

"...you called me low information so my feeling are hurt!"
"Good. That was what I was going for. Low information is being charitable. That suggests you are basically a decent person who fell for a con. The other possibility is that you saw through his populist rhetoric, but you actually do want an authoritarian strongman in control. Now that would be really insulting."

"You shouldn’t call people Trumpkins!"
"Forgive me No Labels Police. Writing out Coalition of Authoritarians And Low Information Voters Motivated By Anger And Fear Who Are Now Fully Invested In A Cult of Personality That Will Allow No Dissent got a little long to keep typing."
posted by roystgnr at 8:39 AM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


James O'Keefe has posted video with a DNC commissioner talking about GOTV efforts and calling them voter fraud.
posted by Talez at 8:40 AM on October 11, 2016


Amazing new ad from Clinton absolutely slamming - and showing - Trump's craziness in the last debate.

Does Trump have the discipline to be a good leader? You decide.
posted by chris24 at 8:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


wait, what?

Nice crunch, good flavor, almost but not quite hull-less. You can get it lots of places, I gather it's an old variety, but lately I've been enjoying the stuff from Hoosier Hill farms because amazon prime.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


NYT saying early voting could hand Hillary victory before Nov 8

I can't imagine anything more humiliating for the Donald.
posted by Tarumba at 8:42 AM on October 11, 2016 [56 favorites]


The thing is, most people don't like political violence, and this is not a country where the army is routinely mobilized against the people, or where we are used to overtly political violence. Police killings are political, violence against immigrants is political, but organized violence against civilian political opponents because they are political opponents is political in a different way that more Americans understand as political.

That can change, yes, but it's going to be difficult for it to change overnight. A Trump presidency, with impunity for white terrorists and covert state support for paramilitaries, would probably shift things over the course of a couple of years, but it's not something that can happen overnight.

I'm certainly pretty worried about violence on election day, but violence from Trump supporters on election day is going to horrify many, many citizens of all political stripes. Violence by Trump supporters will be a disaster for the Republicans, particularly if it is more than just a couple of people and more than just fistfights, or if it can be tied to any kind of direction from within the party. If the Republican organization has any brains at all, they will be doing everything they can to cool out their people and support ordinary election procedures.

I'm not saying that this country can't be shifted to your paramilitary/disappearing people/Pinochet-level fascism, I'm just saying that it will take some time and effort.

What I'm mostly worried about, actually, is someone assassinating Hillary, or her plane going down, or god forbid some serious illness.
posted by Frowner at 8:42 AM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Nice crunch, good flavor, almost but not quite hull-less. You can get it lots of places, I gather it's an old variety, but lately I've been enjoying the stuff from Hoosier Hill farms because amazon prime.

Jonathan Swift, eat your heart out
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Shit, it really is the Bunker, isn't it?

Except it's a bunker with a real-time feedback loop. It's... like an active shooter siege where the gunman has all the TVs switched to different local news channels.
posted by holgate at 8:45 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's true that if it came down to the US military vs. a guerrilla force of yokels with modded AR-15s engaged in open rebellion in the streets, the military would win. Let's not let it get to that point though, huh?

It won't. When the call came out of Oregon for The People To Rise Up And...

Everyone with any sanity stayed home and watched it unfold on youtube.
posted by mikelieman at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, Larry Correia, thank you for helping me to believe that at least SF land folks are mostly free of this bullshit.
posted by corb at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


New Trump campaign ad.

Final frame of the ad:
Donald Trump will protect you.
He is the only one that can.
This is unshackled Trump. Openly authoritarian and fascist.
posted by Talez at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


As a man I am offended by the number of female Trump surrogates going on TV and trying to explain away Trump's rape speech as a typical part of male culture. It is an offensive and hurtful stereotype.
posted by humanfont at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


James O'Keefe has posted video with a DNC commissioner talking about GOTV efforts and calling them voter fraud.

Mmmhm. Yeah, okay.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:48 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is at Trump Tower, per a person close to him. Watching TV, tweeting. With Bannon & others who encourage his anti-estab R sentiment...
— Robert Costa @costareports

TRUMP: OK. What we got?
TRUMP JR: I got Revenge of the Nerds on VHS and a beer pong set.
TRUMP: Awesome. Bannon! What's the freezer situation?
BANNON: We've got... vanilla and... more vanilla, chief.
TRUMP: Motherfucker!! Paul Ryan took all the good ice cream with him?! Gimmie my phone!
BANNON: I don't think...
TRUMP: The PHONE, Bannon. Shit just got serious. I'm gonna tweet the base. Let 'em know what's going down with that rat.
TRUMP JR: Yeah! You tell him dad! WOOOO!
posted by garius at 8:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


The "disloyal R's" tweet made me yelp in my seat. He is really committed to burning this sucker to the ground, huh?

(Sincerely hoping "this sucker" means the Republican Party and not, like, America.)
posted by Rumpled at 8:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump is at Trump Tower, per a person close to him. Watching TV, tweeting. With Bannon & others who encourage his anti-estab R sentiment...
— Robert Costa @costareports
Shit, it really is the Bunker , isn't it?

FEGELEIN!
posted by mazola at 8:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


TRUMP: Motherfucker!! Paul Ryan took all the good ice cream with him?! Gimmie my phone!

Some real estate genius. Doesn't even have a place selling ice cream in the lobby of Tacky Trump Tower.

The fucking Spring Hill Suites I stayed in 2 weeks ago was selling ice cream in the lobby.
posted by mikelieman at 8:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Paul Ryan is Robert Baratheon

Donald Trump is the boar

Ted Cruz is Ned Stark

wait, I'm doing this wrong, aren't I
posted by Existential Dread at 8:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


New Trump campaign ad.

And showing her:

1) coughing
2) helped up stairs
3) fainting getting into the car

while saying she doesn't have the stamina.

So sad that this weak weak woman has kicked your ass in two debates and is beating you in the polls by double digits.
posted by chris24 at 8:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


EXCLUSIVE: Leaked Photos Of Trump's New Debate Exoskeleton
posted by theodolite at 8:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Come on Donald, you never go full Aerys Targarian.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


please stop with all the fake crap and fanfic, I cannot keep track.
posted by zutalors! at 8:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


See for example last May's Larry Correia on Trump

Eh. Correia stands for and supports almost everything Trump does, he just doesn't like that he's the one saying them. He's also a longtime ally of Gamergate and other alt-right movements, which you could reasonably include the Puppies in. And Correia's a mini-Trump himself: he substitutes being right with being loud, he loves to call people names, he regularly projects his own weaknesses and bigotry on others, he mistakes public opinion being on his side with the yes-sirs of sycophants and toadies, and he'll pass on random and easily-debunked paranoid ramblings that reinforce his own bigotry (Zoe Quinn slept with FIVE GUYS! For good reviews!) as if they were fact, all the while claiming that the real bigots are those that disagree with him.

None of the other puppy bigwigs are much better, and in a lot of cases can be worse. Torgersen compared their movement to the Confederacy as if that was a good thing. Green believes that the "grab her" videotape isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. Hoyt regularly rants about anyone to the left of Hannity as commie-facist thugs itching for Stalinism, and is deep in the fever swamp on conservative paranoia (2008 and 2012 were stolen by NBPP and ACORN, Benghazi was a coverup, etc).

I'm not giving Correia or anyone of his ilk that much credit for not voting for Trump as long as they're on the side of what Trump stands for.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


The Concord Monitor's editorial cartoon.

Good luck to Maggie!
posted by Talez at 8:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


FEGELEIN!

Who do you think is the Fegelein in this? I'm guessing Christie?
posted by drezdn at 8:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Speaking for myself, I think that hearing men deplore this sort of conversation as abnormal and abhorrent makes me feel like my kind of not-particularly-butch type is actually and has always been the norm and the sort of thing for which we should strive. Hearing it get countered that it actually is the norm for men to talk makes me feel like there’s a certain brand of feminism that would like to have there be a gender essentialism in which men are terrible. I’d like to think that I can listen and believe without also taking it as a given that something is ubiquitous.

I understand your concern but it's important to think carefully about this stuff, precisely because it's so toxic for everyone. Nobody is saying "men are terrible" full stop, all men are terrible, we should eliminate half the species. And to say such behavior is ubiquitous is not to say that all men take part in it. You should not think in terms of what's "abnormal," because that leads down a rabbit hole (what's "normal"? what are norms?). You should think in terms of what's unacceptably common, because that's what such behavior is. (Presumably you believe that, because you've been listening to the many, many women who have been pointing it out.) It doesn't matter whether it's 10% of men who do the bad stuff and 50% who enable them by not pushing back, or 25% and 90% respectively, or whatever the percentages might be. It matters that too many men do that stuff and too many men don't push back, and it's vitally important to take that seriously and think about what we personally can do to combat it, to make things better for women (and therefore for all of us). It is natural (if one is male) to feel a twinge of "but, but, but I'm not like that and my friends aren't..." but that is basically childish and irrelevant and we need to suppress it so we can think clearly. Otherwise we fall right into the not-all-men trash heap.
posted by languagehat at 8:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Life...Dreams...Hope...Where do they come from? And where do they go? None of that junk is enough to fulfill your hearts! Destruction...Destruction is what makes life worth living! Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Let's destroy everything!

[fake]
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


If you see "just locker room banter" on your social media feeds today, please point out that a couple months ago Trump said women who are sexually harassed at work should change jobs or even change careers. (Yuck.) And, while on that bus, Trump was travelling towards a work gig and the cameraman and sound person and, arguably, Billy Bush were already working. Stuff that isn't even cool in the locker room does not belong at work.
posted by puddledork at 8:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


[Fake] Hillary should respond to the stamina ad with "Trump says I don't have the stamina. At least I don't have this..." [looped footage of Trump chair-humping from the last debate]
posted by drezdn at 8:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Philly is keeping at least one office open for voter registration until midnight.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Destroy! Let's destroy everything!

[fake]

So Trump hired the people that did Veridian Dynamics ads?
posted by drezdn at 8:59 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, sorry, probably better to skip the "which Tolkien/Game of Thrones character" stuff; it's a rabbit hole and the thread is already plenty long.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


This is unshackled Trump. Openly authoritarian and fascist.

Party of Lincoln.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Amazing new ad from Clinton absolutely slamming - and showing - Trump's craziness in the last debate.


That "No" tag at the end is perfectly timed.
posted by Think_Long at 9:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


This is unshackled Trump. Openly authoritarian and fascist.

Party of Lincoln.

It hasn't been the party of Lincoln since Southern Strategy.
posted by zutalors! at 9:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


They're the party of Trump. Accept no other wording.
posted by vbfg at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


It matters that too many men do that stuff and too many men don't push back, and it's vitally important to take that seriously and think about what we personally can do to combat it, to make things better for women (and therefore for all of us).

But what you miss is that saying that Donald Trump's words are not acceptable in locker rooms is pushing back. It's not pushing forward and eradicating everything bad from locker rooms. But it is pushing back when this tire fire of an election campaign is trying to make locker rooms even worse by convincing people that things that are not acceptable to discuss or boast about are the sort of thing you do boast about in locker rooms.
posted by Francis at 9:10 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Life...Dreams...Hope...Where do they come from? And where do they go? None of that junk is enough to fulfill your hearts! Destruction...Destruction is what makes life worth living! Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Let's destroy everything! [fake]

@realDonaldTrump: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off shoulder of Orion. C-beams glitter in dark near Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments lost in time, like tears in rain. Sad.

[Uh, fake.]
posted by The Bellman at 9:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


The music choice in that Hillary ad is genius. It's In the Hall of the Mountain King from Peer Gynt.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 9:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


So then, if we take Elon Musk's Earth as Simulation theory to be a possibility; is Trump the thought experiment, "Could America Elect Adolph Hitler?" "Could it all happen again?" Is the Hitler to be, one of Trump's sons, they are just building the media infrastructure now?

In some future scenario, are we racing ourselves off this planet before we self-destruct? Well that last part of this hypothesis, sure looks like dead on to me.
posted by Oyéah at 9:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I could be wrong, but (not counting Barron) none of Trump's sons seem to have his charisma.
posted by drezdn at 9:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It matters that too many men do that stuff and too many men don't push back, and it's vitally important to take that seriously and think about what we personally can do to combat it, to make things better for women (and therefore for all of us).

But what you miss is that saying that Donald Trump's words are not acceptable in locker rooms is pushing back.

I've been thinking about this the last few days, and I think the best response we can provide as men is a two-parter (well, actually three). The first is pushing back against the thought that this is simply a normal way men talk. We need to be vocal in saying that, "No, actually this is an unacceptable normalization of sexual assault, and NOT normal locker room talk."

Leaving it at that, however, is skating dangerously close to #NotAllMen. The second part has to be "I believe women when they say that yes, this type of language, assault, and denial of consent has happened to them by men they and we would interact with on a daily basis, and we need to stop it." We see it in this thread, we see it in the media and on Twitter. Not including that second part does nothing to change the reality of sexual assault.

The third part would be pushing back on men who do talk like this in our presence.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


Francis, I think the point is that there's a difference between actually pushing back, and simply saying "neither I nor anyone I know does this" and then leaving it at that. It's important to acknowledge that all too many men absolutely do do it, and to actively stand against them rather than merely standing apart from them.

Also, the fact that Trump's statements in the Billy Bush tape are such an extreme version of the type inadvertently gives cover for less-extreme forms of misogynistic talk. For every time I've heard "I like to grab 'em by the pussy," I've heard twenty or thirty "I'd tap that"s. Both types of statements exist on a spectrum of abusive language, albeit at different points on the spectrum, and both need to be called out as unacceptable on the same grounds.

When we say "I've never heard anyone say 'I like to grab 'em by the pussy'" but elide the fact that we have heard many locker-room (or meeting room, or barroom, or whatever—the venue isn't important except that it's male-dominated) comments on the level of "I'd tap that," we are giving cover to abusers and normalizing rape culture even as we attempt to distance ourselves from it.

This shit ain't simple, or pretty, or comfortable. But it's really fucking important.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


I could be wrong, but (not counting Barron) none of Trump's sons seem to have his charisma.

I'm not all that sure that Trump has Trump's charisma.
posted by phunniemee at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Greenwald: Democrats are the real McCarthyists.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2016


Here in Portland Maine the roadside signs for Trump are just now appearing. By far the most deployed signs so far: Gary Johnson.

Are they the Trump signs with the stoned looking eagle on them? There was a guy in a PRIME spot at the Cumberland Fair handing them out and we saw quite a few in people's hands (which would make my son nervously edge closer to me and kind of point at them when he saw them). I was sort of miffed there was no MaineDems presence at the fair until we figured out that this was just some guy who had printed his own signs to give away. (Or maybe the state party, who knows.)

Driving north into District II though, it was all Trump signs all the time.
posted by anastasiav at 9:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, half a million people have already voted. Game on.

I don't do a lot of retail shopping, but for the past couple weeks, I haven't been able to go to a big box, drugstore, or grocery without being accosted by clipboard wielding "Are you registered to vote?" foot-soldiers. Tough job, but Sunday, outside the Home Depot, I heard three people in a row say, "Yes I am, and thank you for doing this."

Today's the last day to register to vote in Ohio.

Here we go. . . .

the hatred for Paul Ryan isn't arising in a vacuum. . . . he's too moderate for the anger wing of the party. . . .

I'll tell you who's enjoying this: John Boehner. I hear bourbon sales are way up in SW Ohio [fake].

[Ryan] wants unreasonable things but he is willing to negotiate to get only 90% of what he wants. The fact that 90% of what he wants is extremely beneficial to the right is irrelevant, because the acts of compromise and negotiation are PROOF that RYAN is A SECRET DEMOCRAT and COLLUDING WITH EVIL and REPUBLICAN IN NAME ONLY and A HORRIBLE ISLAMIC TURNCOAT and WE KNEW IT ALL ALONG.

Ever read Philip K. Dicks's Eye In The Sky? It must be the last Dick novel to remain un-hollywoodized. A diverse group of people survive a superhero-origin-level SF industrial accident, and afterwards find that they are living in a constructed reality based on the world-view and under the control of -- one of their number. Via, essentially, murder, they escape this reality to find themselves in one controlled by the next person.

Eventually they find themselves in a world controlled by a Miss Grudy type. Nobody has, for example, any genitals. Only things that are 'nice' and 'pleasant' are allowed. They eventually escape by persuading her that air is really quite nasty; she foolishly banishes air from reality and they all 'die'.

The moral of the story is that in politics, a great way to die of asphyxiation is to ban anything from your universe that isn't 100% to your liking.

So is there really a chance that a sizeable amount of Trumpian die-hards vote Donald and don't bother with down-ticket, while trad GOPers vote down ticket and abstain/vote Hillary for president?

If they do, they'll be a) reversing the most successful strategy the GOP has been using since the 1970s, at least -- building the farm team-- and 2. emulating the worst behaviour of both organization and rank-and-file Dems, which is to expect all good things to flow from a single messianic national leadership figure while GOP school-boards, GOP county commisssioners, GOP city councils, GOP mayors, and GOP dogcatchers eat their lunch locally.

If there's to be a political role-reversal in this country, that's the one I wish for.

When the call came out of Oregon for The People To Rise Up . . .

Everyone with any sanity stayed home and watched it unfold on youtube.

Say, "Hallelujah".
 
posted by Herodios at 9:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


They're the party of Trump. Accept no other wording.

I would also accept "The Party of John Wilkes Booth".
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


My dad linked to this song on Facebook, for anyone who needs a pick-me-up.

We've Been Through Some Crappy Times Before

...You stare at your computer screen devoid of joy and hope
you're so depressed you can't get dressed, you're noosing up a rope
But just remind yourself when you can't stand it anymore
that we've been through some crappy times before

We've been through some crappy times before
slavery, unbridled knavery, and the Civil War
Don't stop caring, stop despairing, get up off the floor
'cause we've been through some crappy times before...
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


> But what you miss is that saying that Donald Trump's words are not acceptable in locker rooms is pushing back.

The locker rooms are a distraction. This isn't about locker rooms, it's about toxic male behavior.
posted by languagehat at 9:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


Rubio issues statement; is still on the Trump Train.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2016


We need a new term for men who are cisgender but are profoundly embarrassed to be male.

That's me these days, and while self-loathing probably isn't helpful I'm starting to wonder if we're a lost cause.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


One parishioner, who is also a dedicated church volunteer, even said he wanted to punch Trump in the nose (one other person said something similar). When asked if that was Christ-like behavior, he said, “All of us are sinners.”

Most said they hated the idea of voting for Trump but they had to support “Mike,” so they would grudgingly vote for the Trump/Pence ticket.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The locker rooms are a distraction. This isn't about locker rooms, it's about toxic male behavior.

Yeah, like I too-voluminously said above, all of the abuse I've been on the receiving end of has been perpetrated by various artsy-fartsy nerds and the unsafe place that I had to quit because of having to be around the person who assaulted me was a literary magazine editor's room.

So let's move this out of the "locker room" milieu, post haste.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


Indeed. "Locker room" should just be seen as a shorthand for male-dominated spaces in general. They don't even have to be all-male, or even group settings—anywhere where men hold the power is a potential breeding ground for misogynistic language. It can and does even happen in private, one-on-one settings between a man and a woman; Trump's "locker room banter" is just another aspect of the violent, toxic language that male abusers and sexual criminals often use privately against their female victims.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Old and fake, but newly relevant. Borowitz: Fox: New Evidence Hillary Killed Lincoln
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


My personal inclination is that giving any ground to "locker room" discussion is ceding the issue. Bragging about your predilection for sexual assault in any context is unacceptable. I know black and white reasoning isn't always helpful, but our collective inability to agree on an obvious red line is frustrating and disheartening.
posted by polyhedron at 9:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I could be wrong, but (not counting Barron) none of Trump's sons seem to have his charisma.

Yeah but Eric can assume mist form and is invulnerable to non-magical weapons; that could be a game changer in a general election
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [48 favorites]


On non-preview: Soren, I absolutely agree with you that it would be good to re-frame the discussion to move it away from the "locker room" shorthand. That shorthand was handed us by Trump, and we need to move past it if we're going to confront the full extent of this problem.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow Greenwald is definitely going off the deep end.

What he's really saying is that we should trust leaks that are the result of likely foreign government espionage and have been provided to Wikileaks (not exactly the paragon of journalistic ethics) in a completely unaltered state.

Why does he think that editing emails that have been scraped from an email server is somehow a difficult thing? Does he think that every analyst that has suggested that the hack and the associated leaks is somehow a part of a grand conspiracy?

If there are falsified emails (and there likely are) comparison of emails that wikileaks has vs the archived copies that law enforcement types have now would likely reveal "creative editing". But honestly the leakers aren't really trying to build a case vs Clinton but sow confusion and doubt.
posted by vuron at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump supporters reacted to the leaked tape and Trump's comments by saying "This is no big deal, this is how men talk...it's harmless locker room banter". That narrative needs to be pushed back on and refuted. This is not normal harmless male behavior and it *is* a big deal.

On the other hand, the narrative that this talk is unfortunately all-too-normal in our society and that men - all men - are culpable in it's ubiquity, is correct and men should not be refuting or pushing back against that message.

It's a subtle difference, but shouldn't be too hard to navigate.
posted by rocket88 at 9:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I know that for most in the discussion it was just a shorthand for "male-dominated spaces" (which is sort of everywhere when you consider that a woman sharing equal time speaking with a man gets perceived as a woman speaking much more than a man), but I did catch a few comments of the "whew good thing I don't self-identify as a jock, those guys really are animals!" kind. Which is not helpful or accurate.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Presenting an amusing Facebook moment this morning!

So someone left a comment responding to one of my friends' facebook posts; it was a picture of a little boy playing with green plastic toy soldiers, and Trump's head had been photoshopped onto the boy's shoulders. The caption read: "Trump's military record."

The comment this came with, however, was by someone who said: "the rest of the world is laughing at us - we need a real leader like Trump!"

I try not to engage, but this time I couldn't resist responding: "Do you...honestly not get that that picture was insulting Trump?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yeah, locker room talk is just shorthand for 'boys being boys.' Which is wrong and ugly no matter the location or audience.
posted by chris24 at 9:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


That shorthand was handed us by Trump

iseewhatyoudidthere.gif
posted by Etrigan at 9:39 AM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


Greenwald: Democrats are the real McCarthyists.

The actual headline here is “In the Democratic Echo Chamber, Inconvenient Truths Are Recast as Putin Plots”. Perhaps more tellingly, tho’, Greenwald appears to feel forced to open his reporting with this caveat:
DONALD TRUMP, FOR reasons I’ve repeatedly pointed out, is an extremist, despicable, and dangerous candidate, and his almost-certain humiliating defeat is less than a month away.
Take that for what you will. The article seems ok.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


The music choice in that Hillary ad is genius. It's In the Hall of the Mountain King from Peer Gynt.

It's also the theme music for Peter Lorre's child murderer in Fritz Lang's M--whose collapse into confessed lack of any self control (shouting "Ich musse, Ich musse" as his only explanation of what he's done) at the end of the movie seems an apt analogue for Trump's behavior. Perfect music choice.
posted by felix grundy at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


Only if we stamp it out. Who else is going to do it? If we all sit back and say "this can never happen, it'll get taken care of" then it won't be. Much of Hitler's rise has been attributed to the large swaths of the German public who just couldn't believe that the danger was real. That he was being hyperbolic, that he didn't really mean what he said, that surely cooler heads would temper him.

I linked it before and I'll link it again: Ur-Fascism, by Umberto Eco.

If reconciliation means compassion and respect for all those who fought their own war in good faith, to forgive does not mean to forget. I can even admit that Eichmann sincerely believed in his mission, but I cannot say, “OK, come back and do it again.” We are here to remember what happened and solemnly say that “They” must not do it again.

But who are They?

If we still think of the totalitarian governments that ruled Europe before the Second World War we can easily say that it would be difficult for them to reappear in the same form in different historical circumstances....

Nevertheless, even though political regimes can be overthrown, and ideologies can be criticized and disowned, behind a regime and its ideology there is always a way of thinking and feeling, a group of cultural habits, of obscure instincts and unfathomable drives. Is there still another ghost stalking Europe (not to speak of other parts of the world)?...

There was only one Nazism. We cannot label Franco’s hyper-Catholic Falangism as Nazism, since Nazism is fundamentally pagan, polytheistic, and anti-Christian. But the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change...

We must keep alert, so that the sense of these words ["freedom," "dictatorship," "liberty"] will not be forgotten again. Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, “I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares.” Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances—every day, in every part of the world. Franklin Roosevelt’s words of November 4, 1938, are worth recalling: “I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land.” Freedom and liberation are an unending task.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


It could just be him shouting across the room at an assistant because his [tiny] hands are too greasy from KFC to use his own phone

friendly reminder that Donald Trump eats KFC with a knife and fork


and technically we shouldn't judge him for that but man am I laughing anyway
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


What we can still learn from sexual harassment by Anita Hill
We must understand the harm that sexual harassment and sexual violence causes. Missing from the conversation this weekend, which focused almost exclusively on the character of the offender, was concern about the victims of sexual violence. At virtually every dinner table this weekend, people talked about what should happen to Donald Trump’s political ambitions. But little consideration was given to what impact the brutish behavior he claimed to have had on the women he victimized. How many of them talked about Arianne Zucker, the young woman in the leaked video who Bush cajoled into hugging the same two men who had just joked about forcibly kissing her? Did she know she was the butt of a sexual gag? Or did we wonder what happened to Nancy O’Dell, the woman who rejected Trump’s advances?
posted by melissasaurus at 9:42 AM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Disloyal R's are far more difficult than Crooked Hillary. They come at you from all sides. They don’t know how to win - I will teach them!

What is this even?

It reads in a similar fashion as his "I will give economics to the people" line from the second debate. I heard that as 'I will give economics to the people, good and hard!', so this is 'I will teach them what winning looks like, good and hard!'

It's just barely a step up from a 'your mom' joke, so is more or less consistent with my understanding of Trump's thought processes.
posted by palindromic at 9:43 AM on October 11, 2016


Greenwald: Democrats are the real McCarthyists.

I'm reading the article and those words aren't in it.

He's saying that Clinton's camp admitted the Wikileaks emails were authentic and yet they were still recast as inauthentic by Clinton supporters.

Respectfully, if you're going to ascribe words to people, please have them be real. Because people have a habit of making summaries into the take-away message without doing the hard work of reading.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


A lot of locker rooms these days appear to be where athletes talk about systemic racism and police violence, which the right won't even acknowledge as real. So actual locker room talk is better and more engaged than GOP discourse.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 9:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


Law and Order - Trump Unit (from Tom the Dancing Bug)
posted by fuse theorem at 9:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


The issue of framing isn't just that Donald has framed it for us about "locker room talk" = normal. As I said above, Donald, and many other men do these things, assault women and girls in this way. That's the fucking issue. Why does it matter who has always heard or who has never heard such things said? It matters only because that's the argument Donald turned it into. STOP IT.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 9:45 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]



Greenwald: Democrats are the real McCarthyists.

Wow, it's a bit of a stretch to conflate a series of "re-tweets" to a decade long purge that included congressional hearings and blacklists.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:45 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Boy, Brooksie needles the shit out of Trump with the best "more in sorrow than in anger" column he's ever written: "Donald Trump’s Sad, Lonely Life."
"Politics is an effort to make human connection, but Trump seems incapable of that. He is essentially adviser-less, friendless. His campaign team is made up of cold mercenaries at best and Roger Ailes at worst. His party treats him as a stench it can’t yet remove.

He was a germophobe through most of his life and cut off contact with others, and now I just picture him alone in the middle of the night, tweeting out hatred.

Trump breaks his own world record for being appalling on a weekly basis, but as the campaign sinks to new low after new low, I find myself experiencing feelings of deep sadness and pity.

Imagine if you had to go through a single day without sharing kind little moments with strangers and friends."

Imagine if you had to endure a single week in a hate-filled world, crowded with enemies of your own making, the object of disgust and derision.

You would be a twisted, tortured shrivel, too, and maybe you’d lash out and try to take cruel revenge on the universe. For Trump this is his whole life.
Totally sick burns and an award-winning pastiche of David Brooks by David Brooks! That is a thing of beauty.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:46 AM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


@jaykirell
Thanksgiving dinner w/ Bush family:

Billy: Uncle Jeb, can you pass the yams?
Jeb: *glares* Could you have passed that tape a year ago?
posted by chris24 at 9:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [71 favorites]


Mod note: Couple comments deleted; please let's skip the stuff about Scott Baio dying, we just don't need it and it takes us down a distasteful track.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:48 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton's compliment at the end is utterly brilliant. It gives exactly zero ground politically, if anything it's a backhanded reminder that his children were raised by the women he divorced.

It's also a shoutout to Chelsea, validating her daughter's choice to be friends with Ivanka.

And yet, it seems that Trump's relationship with his kids might be one of the things he's most proud of and happy about. He probably regards it as a genuinely nice thing for her to say. Maybe it might even help open the possibility that when he loses he writes off all the campaign insults as just political and not personal (who knows how much of his hateful rhetoric about Clinton he actually believes and cares about--maybe none of it).
posted by straight at 9:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


May I add an edited quote (i.e. a misquote) from “The Newsroom” here?

. Ideological purity
. Compromise as weakness
. A fundamentalist belief in scriptural literalism
. Denying science
. Unmoved by facts
. Undeterred by new information
. A hostile fear of progress
. A demonization of education
. A need to control women’s bodies
. Severe xenophobia
. Tribal mentality
. Intolerance of dissent
. A pathological hatred of the US government

They can call themselves a presidential campaign. But we should call them what they are: The American Taliban.
(I used the actual quote here; it's about the Republican Party but I felt this was more appropriate)
posted by DanSachs at 9:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days? I waded into Trump online territory this morning and now I'm sick and tense and shaking under the covers not knowing how to deal.
posted by corb at 9:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [57 favorites]


This is not normal harmless male behavior

Crude sexual objectification of women all too often IS "normal male behaviour"; it's a difference of degree, not of kind. (although this thread may not necessarily be the best place to try to have a conversation about patriatrchy, rape culture and toxic masculinity.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Me too, corb. Except the part about Trump territory, it didn't even take thatz
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 9:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The split isn't just a base voters / elected officials divide anymore. There are now enough Trumpists in the caucus itself to deny a working majority to the party. It's been nearly impossible for them even with a 30-seat cushion and that's about to get slashed (and the seats to be lost will be disproportionately moderate, almost by definition).

All of this fascinates me because the GOP has left themselves in this horrid position with their long standing single minded appeal to white voters based largely on stoking racial and other divisionist fears.

Now they have to either go forward accepting that burden of their history and try to find candidates that appeal to bigots but don't frighten everyone else, or they're going to have to change. I don't think Ryan or most other higher ups in the GOP believe they can change their path. So Trump threatening them from the bigot wing of the party worries them as that's an important segment of their reliable base, while other candidates with more of an eye on the future, or in more moderate areas are hoping to push back away from the extreme bigotry and ignorance Trump has brought so clearly to the fore.

Watching Evan McMullin's campaign has been an interesting sort of what if the GOP denounced bigotry scenario. McMullin is running as a equality first conservative, who has no problem saying black lives matter and that the US of course will take in Syrian refugees and many other basic Democratic ideals that serve as easy separators from GOP ideals. By denying bigotry outright, McMullin places the differences between his idea of conservatism and the Democrats idea of liberalism on a narrower divide, one of primarily states rights versus stronger federal government and connected to that, more emphasis on business and state solutions for most issues that aren't inherently federal in scope. (He, for example, has no problem with social security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the like.)

While I'm not expecting the McMuffin himself to catch fire and win the election obviously, the suggestion that they intend to push this agenda post election is intriguing since I could see that being a real winner for a lot of moderate Republicans and some Democrats, particularly business types who aren't thrilled with the ugly side of the GOP but like their ideas on business regulation, taxes and so on. If that kind of platform, with Egg or otherwise, did gain some traction among the never Trump side of the GOP it could find itself well funded fairly quickly and insert itself between the Trumpist GOP and the Dems with Clinton perhaps still distrusted by many. If that happened it could make the next election another humdinger even if Trump himself isn't still around. This election seems likely to have some far reaching effects even in a landslide.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


I haven't seen many people claiming the leaks are faked (other than the ones that clearly have been faked). They're just nothing. Nobody gives a shit. Greenwald hates democrats and is finding new ways to insult them. Go for it dudeo. Wake me up if the Russians dig up anything actually incriminating.

Meanwhile can you imagine how fucked Obama would have been in 2008 if McCain was helped out by Russian hackers? How SFW do you think Rahms communiques are?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


And here is an except from that (good but long and digressive) Umberto Eco essay, detailing what he believed to be some common traits of fascism. I've excerpted the most salient bits of this. Read it. Like, please.

"In spite of some fuzziness regarding the difference between various historical forms of fascism, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition… As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism… The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake… Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes.

4. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity… The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country… Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies… Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak… the Leader… knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero… the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons -- doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say… Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter… Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People. Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak…. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show."

This was written in 1995, by a guy who grew up under Italian fascism.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [90 favorites]


The Noble Goofy Elk, that was sort of the point I was trying to make; sorry if it didn't come across. When you break out of Trump's framing and realize that the "locker room" is anywhere that men hold power, and "locker room talk" is any kind of speech that enables and normalizes sexual assault, it immediately becomes unavoidably obvious that oh my god this shit is absolutely everywhere.

I see your point though that over-focusing on the "talk" aspect runs the risk of erasing the actual sexual assault that goes along with that talk. I personally have been focusing on the talk because that's the part that I feel like I know how to combat, and because de-normalizing sexually aggressive language hopefully de-normalizes sexual assault itself at the same time, but you're right that one can run the risk of losing track of the latter in pursuit of the former.

That's something that I'm going to have to think about, because I've kind of been making the talk aspect my personal hobby horse since last Friday and leaving the sexual assault part to others (while trying, not always successfully I guess, to keep clear that the tape is a confession of sexual assault rather than just bad language). It's important not to inadvertently minimize Trump's words and what they represent in our culture by focusing on the language and ignoring the actions. The two are intimately intertwined. I need to talk less and listen more for a little while. Sorry if I got a bit out of hand.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days? I waded into Trump online territory this morning and now I'm sick and tense and shaking under the covers not knowing how to deal.

My hands literally go cold when I am frightened. I spent the last debate trying, and failing, to warm them up. Seeing such ugliness perpetuated so gladly was horrifying.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I waded into Trump online territory this morning and now I'm sick and tense and shaking under the covers not knowing how to deal.

Well, I deal by reminding myself that either this will be the biggest blowout in U.S. political history, or I am about to get a crash course in Underground Resistance. I'll be who I am either way, and so will you. From what I've seen of who you are, that's a Good Thing.

I got a hug for you, if that's your thing.
posted by Mooski at 9:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


Sadly, Greenwald has turned into H.A. Goodman but with talent.
posted by Justinian at 9:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hey can we take a moment to appreciate just how painfully, ultra-mega-fremdschämeningly cringeworthy Billy's attempt to play Chester to Trump's Spike was?

It's all terrible, but his delivery of "my MAN!" really stands out to me as the perfect encapsulation of a man throwing away his dignity just to ingratiate himself to some ostensibly higher-status chump.

Billy Bush, you were not the collateral damage we expected out of this disgraceful election, but whatever.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


Clinton's compliment at the end is utterly brilliant. It gives exactly zero ground politically, if anything it's a backhanded reminder that his children were raised by the women he divorced.

It was also fairly weaksauce, she said they were "able" (??) and devoted to their father. I also think of it every time DJT JR gets back to bashing her, so it has that effect.

I was taken aback by his compliment for her - the fighting and never giving up is something that's said often about her by her supporters and surrogates. And he sounded very heartfelt. I don't trust it quite but it seemed to speak to something outside the campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


> "Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days?"

Yes.
posted by kyrademon at 10:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


> The very foul mouthed Sen. John McCain begged for my support during his primary (I gave, he won), then dropped me over locker room remarks!

The scorched earth continues.
posted by jammer at 10:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [52 favorites]


I haven't seen many people claiming the leaks are faked (other than the ones that clearly have been faked).

For some reason every time NPR talks about them, they use a disclaimer that the leaked emails are unverified and could be fake or falsified in some way.

That said, the fact that, during the last debate, Clinton verified the one she was questioned about as a real thing she really said, but quoted out of context, implies to me that at least the snippets being discussed in the press are probably words that actually came out of her mouth, taken completely out of context and heightened to sound as bad as possible.
posted by Sara C. at 10:01 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Respectfully, if you're going to ascribe words to people, please have them be real.

If I was quoting him directly, I would've used quotations. If I was using quotations to make a joke, I think we've established the correct form must be to use the [fake] tag. Absent that, I think it's pretty clear that it was my characterization of his article in my own voice, not Greenwald's.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:02 AM on October 11, 2016


Boy, Brooksie needles the shit out of Trump with the best “more in sorrow than in anger" column he's ever written: "Donald Trump’s Sad, Lonely Life.”

Tsundavid Brooks
posted by Going To Maine at 10:03 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm just taking a happy moment to imagine Obama's twitter account once he's allowed to touch a smartphone again. Imagine Trump in a twitter dialogue with Zero Fucks Left Barack.
posted by fatbird at 10:04 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


I really hope the press asks every Republican who finally rescinds their endorsement after the next tape drops, "how fuckin' stupid are you that you didn't know this was going to happen?"

or maybe just shorten it for brevity's sake

"Marco? Marco? How fuckin' stupid are you, Marco?"
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:05 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days? I waded into Trump online territory this morning and now I'm sick and tense and shaking under the covers not knowing how to deal.


Lie down with dogs, wake up with rabies.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:05 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm just taking a happy moment to imagine Obama's twitter account once he's allowed to touch a smartphone again. Imagine Trump in a twitter dialogue with Zero Fucks Left Barack.

Here's hoping Barack is better than that.
posted by dis_integration at 10:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


also I feel pretty bad for the The Mentalist guy for all the years he has ahead of him explaining to people that he isn't Billy Bush
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Clinton’s compliment at the end is utterly brilliant. It gives exactly zero ground politically, if anything it's a backhanded reminder that his children were raised by the women he divorced.

How delightful that a question intended to foster a semblance of amicability can (must?) be read as another opportunity for a stab.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:07 AM on October 11, 2016


PSA:

HFA just texted out a number to text if you have "questions about voting in your state." They promise to get back with an answer in 24 hours. In addition to questions like I received when I was out canvassing last (I registered where I go to college, do I vote here or there? etc...), it might also be a good place to inquire about any hotlines for your local area to use in case you witness voter intimidation or other shenanigans.

Anyway, text your questions to 47246.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


@prisonculture:
"Billy Bush can claim youthful naivety at 34 & Trump at 59. Black children are not children at 12."
posted by chris24 at 10:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [140 favorites]




How delightful that a question intended to foster a semblance of amicability

It was an incredibly stupid, waste of time question.
posted by zutalors! at 10:08 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


I have a bunch of other things I need to get done right now, but I am nothing if not safety-conscious.
posted by ckape at 10:08 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton’s compliment at the end is utterly brilliant. It gives exactly zero ground politically, if anything it's a backhanded reminder that his children were raised by the women he divorced.

It was actually sympathetic. Imagine being Tiffany Trump and after years of hearing from your friends, "Your creepy dad creep-hugged me and grabbed my ass", having to smile during this trainwreck campaign that very likely will destroy whatever actual value the Trump brand had left.
posted by mikelieman at 10:10 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Sorry, hit enter too fast.. My point is that HRC and the Trump Ladies move in the same circles, and HRC certainly understands what they must be feeling.
posted by mikelieman at 10:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


btw I'm kind of falling back on my theory that Bill & Donald had a Dumbledore/Snape deal going when they had that phone call just before Donald announced he was running and that the utter annihilation of the GOP was the ultimate endgame all along

DONALD: You must understand, Bill, as much as it will grieve and shame me to do so, I must play my role to the hilt. Do not be surprised if I bring Juanita Broaddrick to a debate audience, for example

BILL: Yes, yes. Do as you must
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


"The thing is, most people don't like political violence, and this is not a country where the army is routinely mobilized against the people, or where we are used to overtly political violence.

Most white people don't like seeing political violence against black and brown people.

The army has not been routinely mobilized against the people since the closing of the frontier and the destruction of indigenous power.

We are not used to seeing overtly political violence because the violence has been outsourced to "individual actors" and "lone gunman" and "unidentified arsonists", buried among thousands of untested rape kits and 'misplaced evidence'.

White supremacy will not be dismantled until we stop telling white history.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [52 favorites]


Hey can we take a moment to appreciate just how painfully, ultra-mega-fremdschämeningly cringeworthy Billy's attempt to play Chester to Trump's Spike was?

It's all terrible, but his delivery of "my MAN!" really stands out to me as the perfect encapsulation of a man throwing away his dignity just to ingratiate himself to some ostensibly higher-status chump.

Turns out, in fact, that this dude actually threw away his dignity years ago. The reason Trump trusts him is because they are exactly alike in how they see women.
posted by Dragonness at 10:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


OH god yes the helplessness of knowing that no one will help you or even privately tell you it sucks. That there's a whole system of contempt and violence that you suffer and no one cares or even sees. I noticed the guys who said nothing and stopped trusting them, too, because there's no way to tell if they're silent because they're afraid or because they agree.

If I got thrown back in time, this is by far the one thing I'd like to improve about young maxwelton. I never assaulted anyone or even had fantasies of doing so (consent is the sexiest part of sexy stuff), but I definitely heard and saw stuff: As an example, there were a couple of boys at my very rural middle school who would literally grab girls by their genitals in the hall and I was too timid (like everyone else, I cannot recall a single person saying "not cool", not that it excuses my inaction) to do anything.

There may not be such things as "alpha males", but there are those guys everyone thinks is cool and looks up to, and what they're like can set the tone for the entire social setting they find themselves in, at least in a school environment, but probably others. Often, they're just channeling the attitudes of adults they find admirable.

This is both the danger of giving assholes like Trump a literal bully pulpit and a reminder to always, always call this shit out when you see it. You never know if you're one of those adults, kids can latch onto role models in weird ways.

So walk the walk--it's often super hard, and I know I've failed to speak up in the past and probably will in the future, but let's keep trying our best. A single comment doesn't seem like much, but if even 10% of adult males in the states called out bad behavior once per week, that's a billion times per year someone has said something.
posted by maxwelton at 10:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


How delightful that a question intended to foster a semblance of amicability

It was an incredibly stupid, waste of time question.

Absolutely. I wanted her to say: "there's nothing about him I respect. He just threatened me with political prosecution and called me the devil and you want me to respect him?" And then watch his angry flameout when it was his chance to answer the question.
posted by dis_integration at 10:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, you guys. Erick Eriksen just formally endorsed McMullin.
posted by corb at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Absolutely. I wanted her to say: "there's nothing about him I respect

She did. A man is not his children.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


Greenwald: Democrats are the real McCarthyists.

[CTRL-F "McCarthy"] Zero results.

[CTRL-F "Red Scare"] Zero results.

[CTRL-F "Communist" and "communism"] Zero results.

Here's what the article says:
In any event, based on the available evidence, this is a small embarrassment for Trump: He cited an erroneous story from a non-credible Russian outlet, so it’s worth noting. But that’s not what happened. Eichenwald, with increasing levels of hysteria, manically posted no fewer than three dozen tweets last night about his story, each time escalating his claims of what it proved. By the time he was done, he had misled large numbers of people into believing that he found proof that: a) the documents in the WikiLeaks archive were altered; b) Russia put forgeries into the WikiLeaks archive; 3) Sputnik knew about the WikiLeaks archive ahead of time, before it was posted online; 4) WikiLeaks coordinated the release of the documents with the Russian government; and 5) the Russian government and the Trump campaign coordinated to falsely attribute Eichenwald’s words to Blumenthal.

In fact, Eichenwald literally has zero evidence for any of that. The point is not that his evidence for these propositions is inconclusive or unpersuasive; the point is that there is zero evidence for any of it. It’s all just conspiracy theorizing and speculation that he invented. Worse, the article, while hinting at these claims and encouraging readers to believe them, does not even expressly claim any of those things. Instead, Eichenwald’s increasingly unhinged tweets repeatedly inflated his insignificant story from what it was — a misattribution of an email by Sputnik that Trump repeated — into a five-alarm warning that an insidious Russian plot to subvert U.S. elections had been proven, with Trump and fake WikiLeaks documents at the center.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


> The very foul mouthed Sen. John McCain begged for my support during his primary (I gave, he won), then dropped me over locker room remarks!

The scorched earth continues.

I have zero sympathy for McCain. He spent months on the train, even after being insulted for having the gall to be captured, and his response in his debate with Kirkpatrick was the bleatings of a man who doesn't really stand for anything. I hope he loses "bigly," and if he does, he'll be wholly responsible for ending his political career in humiliation.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Absolutely. I wanted her to say: "there's nothing about him I respect

I consider HRC's answer, "His sperm is sometimes useful" to have been a masterwork.
posted by mikelieman at 10:16 AM on October 11, 2016 [65 favorites]


So unshackeled Donald ad released. TPM

New Trump Ad Shows Clinton Coughing, Falling Near 9/11 Memorial

Apparently according to comments I read else ware this is supposed to be a winning punch in the gut at Hillary.

It's not even worth any evens on my part. If this is the level of what they think is going to counter the narrative then I want whatever they are smoking.
posted by Jalliah at 10:17 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


corb: Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days? I waded into Trump online territory this morning and now I'm sick and tense and shaking under the covers not knowing how to deal.

I'm making room for self-care and trying to enforce breaks from my phone and computer. But recently I've noticed that my morbid fascination with this campaign has turned to real fear for America's future and I'm already seeing that it's bad for my psyche. I plan to bring it up to my minister when I see her for my weekly pastoral care meeting.

By the way folks, if you are part of a religious community that you like, one that is supportive and empowering and which you feel shares your vision for the world, and you feel like you need therapy right now but you don't think you can afford it and you're not sure how to go about finding a therapist you like—preachers of all stripes generally offer a similar service to their congregation members, confidentially and free of charge. It's something I've been pursuing recently through my own (Unitarian Universalist) church, and I've found it very fruitful so far. Just putting that out there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


OMG wiki leaks scoop email #HillaryIsDone

John Podesta sent advice on how to make risotto [real]

A little blown away by the apostrophe use though
posted by Tarumba at 10:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


Instead, Eichenwald’s increasingly unhinged tweets repeatedly inflated his insignificant story from what it was — a misattribution of an email by Sputnik that Trump repeated — into a five-alarm warning that an insidious Russian plot to subvert U.S. elections had been proven, with Trump and fake WikiLeaks documents at the center.

Kind of ironic that Greenwald's writing gets the same kind of treatment. Can't wait for this election to be over...
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:19 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


New Trump Ad Shows Clinton Coughing, Falling Near 9/11 Memorial

That ad pissed me off so much, I posted a youtube comment to express my displeasure.

It's so nasty, I freaked myself out a little bit. In response to the earlier question, "YES, this is making me sick."
posted by mikelieman at 10:20 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Risotto's Gate
posted by y2karl at 10:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


That ad pissed me off so much, I posted a youtube comment to express my displeasure.

I just reported it as hate speech.
posted by holgate at 10:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, you guys. Erick Eriksen just formally endorsed McMullin.

Googling suggests he did this a few weeks ago.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:21 AM on October 11, 2016


Most white people don't like seeing political violence against black and brown people.

The army has not been routinely mobilized against the people since the closing of the frontier and the destruction of indigenous power.

We are not used to seeing overtly political violence because the violence has been outsourced to "individual actors" and "lone gunman" and "unidentified arsonists", buried among thousands of untested rape kits and 'misplaced evidence'.

White supremacy will not be dismantled until we stop telling white history.


Yes, and that was the point I made in the next sentence by saying that police killings and violence against immigrants (and, implicitly, similar violence) are political violence, but that what is officially recognized as "political violence" by many Americans is violence by one side of a political campaign against their political opponents, and that it is this kind of violence which is not typical for the US.

I feel like when you're literally talking about "what kind of violence is there likely to be on election day, and why" it's useful to be able to talk about different understandings of political violence and how they're likely to be deployed.
posted by Frowner at 10:21 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Instead, Eichenwald’s increasingly unhinged tweets repeatedly inflated his insignificant story from what it was — a misattribution of an email by Sputnik that Trump repeated —

See, Glenn and I differ here. I think it's interesting that a US candidate for President is so intimately acquainted with half-assed Russian propaganda sources that he even repeats their mistakes and Glenn thinks it's interesting that someone may have reported that in a hyperbolic manner.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


"...blown away by the apostrophe use though"

I shouldn't've looked. "...it's creamy consistency." The horror.
posted by kingless at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Holy shit, you guys. Erick Eriksen just formally endorsed McMullin.

Eh, this isn't surprising. He's been anti-Trump from pretty much day one. It would only be shocking if he actually endorsed Clinton.
posted by Roommate at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


A little blown away by the apostrophe use though

yeah, its risott'o
posted by Namlit at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


'That was the plan — they were trying to approve it and then someone leaked it.'"

Wow. They literally were engaged in a conspiracy to shield an enabler. Gross.

Re: the tape leak of Billy Bush, I like to think that some woman who worked there and had ENOUGH of Billy's shit was the one who leaked it before he could be edited out.
posted by emjaybee at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


FACT CHECK: FAKE
Trump does not know the following words: "grieve", "shame", "hilt", and "bring"

ah, but in my little fictitious scenario there Trump is voiced by actor Alan Rickman
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:22 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


So unshackeled Donald ad released. TPM

New Trump Ad Shows Clinton Coughing, Falling Near 9/11 Memorial

Rebuttal
posted by Existential Dread at 10:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


ah, but in my little fictitious scenario there Trump is voiced by actor Alan Rickman

Just because he's dead doesn't mean you get to slander him like that.
posted by Etrigan at 10:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


Do not be surprised if I bring Juanita Broaddrick to a debate audience, for example

Okay, thanks a lot for making me laugh that hard! "for example"
posted by theredpen at 10:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


HOW MANY AMERICANS DIED IN BENGHAZI WHILE HILLARY WAS CAREFULLY PREPARING RISOTTO ACCORDING TO JOHN PODESTA'S INSTRUCTIONS IN ORDER TO ENSURE A PERFECTLY CREAMY CONSISTENCY
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [100 favorites]


I feel like when you're literally talking about "what kind of violence is there likely to be on election day, and why" it's useful to be able to talk about different understandings of political violence and how they're likely to be deployed.

But you know what, never mind. Tivalasvegas, your point totally stands. I was trying to make a distinction between two understandings of political violence, but I should have clearly situated those two understandings in white supremacy because otherwise they don't make sense.

Metaphorically, I cross out my comment above.
posted by Frowner at 10:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


[CTRL-F "McCarthy"] Zero results.

[CTRL-F "Red Scare"] Zero results.

[CTRL-F "Communist" and "communism"] Zero results.

Greenwald: Democrats have adopted a 'Cold War McCarthyite kind of rhetoric'
posted by beerperson at 10:27 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I admit that I lost some respect for John McCain after his running mate choice, but regained it all back when he told his rally that Obama is an American patriot in response to the birther BS. Screw Trump for holding his mirror up to McCain.
posted by xyzzy at 10:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump has spent over a year building up a base of support that absolutely, categorically refuses to believe anything bad about their candidate. They live in an alternate reality. Any anti-Trump story, whether published by a liberal or conservative source, is by its very existence false.

This is a cult.

This is only partially accurate.

The conservative movement has spent many decades building up a base of support that absolutely, categorically refuses to believe anything bad about their candidate. They live in an alternate reality. Any anti-conservative story, whether published by a liberal or conservative source, is by its very existence false.

"The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.""

Not every conservative is a Bullshit Fundamentalist, by a long shot. But lots of them are. And their echo chamber is mighty: tv pundits, radio hosts, newspaper columnists, Facebook walls, FWD: FWD: FWD: emails, Twitter #hashtags, raging blogs, all designed to reinforce and reinforce and reinforce the message of the day.

Donald Trump did not invent this, or build this himself. He merely said "Hmmm, nice base you've got there, think I'll borrow it" and wandered off to transform himself into Cheetolini. Because no matter what else you may think about The Donald, he IS fairly savvy at spotting groups of suckers to separate from their money, and there is no bigger group of suckers in America than the Bullshit Fundamentalists. He took the right lesson from the Tea Party -- that the Bullshit Fundamentalist movement had reached critical mass -- and installed himself as their authoritarian of choice simply by saying stuff out loud that principled people wouldn't dare.

And so we are a month away from a reckoning.
posted by delfin at 10:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


[fake:] "Risotto? Isn't that Italian food? What are we to think of that, folks? I'm not saying anything here but someone, I say someone should look into Hillary's connections with Sicily."
posted by Namlit at 10:30 AM on October 11, 2016


[Fake] Wikileaks: Hillary is in the pocket of Big Noodle.
posted by drezdn at 10:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


@JohnJHarwood: Ben Carson says he's heard lots of "locker room talk" like Trump's. @brikeilarcnn says she hasn't. Carson replies "maybe that's the problem" [link to tweet saying exactly this; no video yet]
posted by melissasaurus at 10:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Al Carbonara
posted by Namlit at 10:32 AM on October 11, 2016


Greenwald: Democrats have adopted a 'Cold War McCarthyite kind of rhetoric'

Boy, that sure is another link to a different page. I'm extremely owned right now.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is anyone else getting literally nauseous these days?

I've worked myself into a state where my digestion system is all screwed up. It's not fear of Trump winning - is fear of his fervent supporters, some of whom are in my own extended family. I hear and read their opinions and I'm totally overcome with anxiety. Thanks for the actual diarrhea, Trump.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I see we're being extra pedantic and obtuse about quotation marks today.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:34 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Paul Waldman: What the latest hacked emails really tell us about American politics
Some of the interest in these emails will be just gossipy — Chelsea Clinton and a guy from the Clinton Foundation were backstabbing each other! — but what do they actually reveal? Well, there’s a lot of back-and-forth between Clinton’s political advisers on how different issues should be handled. For instance, when she decided to come out against the Keystone XL pipeline, how should it be done? Should she write an op-ed? Just leak it to one reporter? Something else? Everyone has an opinion but nobody knows for sure.

It takes a mighty effort to turn this into something sinister. But some are trying, though. The New York Times story about it notes:
The private discussions among her advisers about policy — on trade, on the Black Lives Matter movement, on Wall Street regulation — often revolved around the political advantages and pitfalls of different positions, while there was little or no discussion about what Mrs. Clinton actually believed. Mrs. Clinton’s team at times seemed consumed with positioning and optics.
That’s like saying that emails circulating among the coaching staff of the Washington Nationals “at times seemed consumed with how to score runs and prevent their opponents from doing the same.” These are political operatives. That’s what they do.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [68 favorites]


I don't know if it's age, or I'm finally turning into a crone 💓, but since Friday I have actually cackled for the first time in my life and several times since.

I'm so proud... It's like the quinceañera I never had
posted by Tarumba at 10:35 AM on October 11, 2016 [73 favorites]


Here's what I keep obsessing on from the second debate: Imagine how not thrilled the Trump sons were to be complemented by Hillary.
posted by DanSachs at 10:37 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


The awesome Texts from Supeheroes gets in on the shade-throwin' at Trump:

After the first debate (Featuring Batman and Wonder Woman)

After Sunday's debate (Featuring Cap and Iron Man)
posted by lord_wolf at 10:38 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I see we're being extra pedantic and obtuse about quotation marks today.

Unlike every other day ? I 'think' not.
posted by y2karl at 10:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


New Trump Ad Shows Clinton Coughing, Falling Near 9/11 Memorial

After two debates of her looking strong and healthy and kicking his ass, with him saying at the end of the second one that she's a fighter that never gives up. Excellent messaging, guys!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:43 AM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


I love the Hillary portrayed in this NY Times Magazine article: ‘I’m the Last Thing Standing Between You and the Apocalypse’

It kills me that she isn't incredibly popular. If I were a politician, this is how I'd be. But I guess the trouble she's had getting traction is one of the many reasons I'm not a politician.
posted by the marble index at 10:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Here's what I keep obsessing on from the second debate: Imagine how not thrilled the Trump sons were to be complemented by Hillary.

As soon as the question was asked, I started saying, with actual words, alone in my house, "compliment his daughters, compliment his daughters, compliment his daughters" and she said "his kids" and I fist pumped and clapped while my dog looked at me like I was insane. I really wanted her to compliment his daughters, for managing to be so capable in spite of their father's obvious contempt for women, but she couldn't do that. Leave out the sons and the headlines go nuts(er than they already are).
posted by phunniemee at 10:48 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah Trump and the Trumpistas haven't exactly been doing wonders for my psyche.

For the most part I can content myself with the near certainty that Trump will never be President. On the other hand his success to date has made me more than a little bit paranoid about his supporters and the inner lives of the of a lot of white American males. I won't say that anything that I've heard to date has been particularly shocking as there is a sizable number of incredibly racist/sexist/homophobic/etc people out there many of whom love to share their venom on the internet behind anonymous or near anonymous accounts.

What I am shocked by is that a Presidential candidate from a major political party is willing to plumb these depths instead of just relying on dogwhistles and what's even more shocking is that a very sizable number of Americans love him for this sort of inflammatory rhetoric.

This was always there under the surface (the hate, the authoritarianism, the fearmongering) but I felt like collectively we had forced it back into the dark corners of society. I'm shocked at how deeply it still has a hold on our society.
posted by vuron at 10:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


why leave out the sons, Barron is so good with the cyber
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Marco? Marco? How fuckin' stupid are you, Marco?

Marco Rubio Stands By Donald Trump Amid Fallout From Leaked Tape
In the face of a wave of Republicans who disavowed their endorsements of Donald Trump, the GOP nominee's former rival Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) stood by him in a statement released Tuesday.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


FYI, Tax Policy Center updated their analysis of Clinton's tax plans based on Clinton's answers to TPC's questions and some new proposals she put forth. As a tax professional, I think her tax plans are pretty awesome and comprehensive. Not everything I'd want, but a lot of doable and helpful stuff; would definitely w. One new thing she added is ending the like-kind exchange/estate tax loophole, which (while it will affect a number of wealthy families and is needed) is pretty much twisting the knife in Trump; I love it.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


Now we know that Trump is willing to go full Breitbart. I'm wondering if he'll go full Alex Jones. It's the next logical step.
posted by diogenes at 10:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


The leaked e-mails show why sausage making stories are reviled by political operatives. It is not their job to know or even particularly care what their candidate/boss' position on an issue is at any given time--it is their job to spin whatever the position is in the most advantageous way possible. So a lot of these emails are basically just outlining the thinking for each position so that HRC's decisions can be met with a plan for moving forward and any necessary cautions about what a particular decision might entail. I am under no illusion that HRC has never made a political calculation in her career, but this sausage factory stuff makes even delicious things (like pro-environment stuff) look gross.
posted by xyzzy at 10:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Betsy McCaughy's facebook post is hilarious. The Beyhive was indeed disturbed and they are letting her have it. A lot of "KEEP BEYONCE'S NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH" and bee emjois are the mildest of it.
posted by TwoStride at 10:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


That's after Rubio tweeted that Trump's "comments were vulgar, egregious & impossible to justify." Trump 2016!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


(I want to quickly follow up about the incorrect thing I said upthread about political violence - in addition to what tivalasvegas pointed out, I realize now that - although I was trying to reassure myself a bit about my own anxieties - it's really ridiculous to say "don't worry, there won't be [a category of] political violence", because for an actual majority of people in these United States, that category of political violence is far from the only kind of political violence to worry about, even if we only include large-scale, overtly ideological violence rather than individual acts of hatred.

Race riots, arson, running people out of town and similar acts are all organized, ideological violence supported by or winked at by the state, and they belong along side other ideological violence. What I was really describing was "violence that would affect me"*.

I am nervous about election day in my neighborhood and my part of town generally (because we are absolutely where the Trumpists would send "observers" to try to fuck shit up) and I was trying to reassure myself, but was not thinking.)

*Actually, not even that - much more "violence that I am worried about right now", since I myself have experienced other forms of social violence around gender, sexuality and gender identity, but I'm so anxious right now that I am thinking like a dodo.
posted by Frowner at 10:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


@JohnJHarwood: Ben Carson says he's heard lots of "locker room talk" like Trump's. @brikeilarcnn says she hasn't. Carson replies "maybe that's the problem" [link to tweet saying exactly this; no video yet]

Here's the video. And yes, Carson is telling people who are upset about Trump endorsing sexual assault that they're the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


WaPo Editorial Board: Donald Trump, Putin’s puppet

"Once again, the GOP nominee played the part of Vladi­mir Putin’s lawyer. “She doesn’t know if it’s the Russians doing the hacking,” he said of Ms. Clinton. “Maybe there is no hacking.” Mr. Trump is receiving classified intelligence briefings, so he is certainly aware of the evidence that hackers backed by Moscow have stolen email and other records from the DNC and tried to penetrate state electoral systems. So why does he deny it? Mr. Trump’s advocacy on behalf of an aggressive U.S. rival, and the opaqueness of his motivation, is one of the most troubling aspects of his thoroughly toxic campaign...

...Does Mr. Trump propose this collaboration with a regime obsessed with thwarting and weakening American power out of ignorance and naivete, or because of personal and business interests he has not disclosed? Mr. Putin surely knows the answer to that question — but U.S. voters do not."
posted by chris24 at 10:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


I love the Hillary portrayed in this NY Times Magazine article: ‘I’m the Last Thing Standing Between You and the Apocalypse’
...I asked Clinton if Nov. 8 scared her. “No, not really,” she said slowly. I clarified that I was talking about the prospect of her losing. She knew what I was talking about. “I’m not going to lose,” she said. She shot me a knowing grin.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


vuron: On the other hand his success to date has made me more than a little bit paranoid about his supporters and the inner lives of the of a lot of white American males.

While it's a valid point that most of Trump's followers are male, it is very disquieting to me that many of them are female as well. It makes a kind of short-sighted, selfish sense to support Trump if you're male—I vehemently disagree with that position, but it's clear that he wants a world in which men have even more power than they already do. I disagree with them, I think they're wrong both morally and strategically, I think they're dangerous—but I feel like I understand the male Trump supporter on some level.

The women, though? I have a much harder time grasping what the mind of a female Trump supporter must be like. My best theory is that there's a lot of internalized hatred going on in there that's being transmuted into hatred of others. What drives a woman to join one of Trump's rallies, to scream "LOCK HER UP!" and "BUILD THAT WALL!" and worse? What is it like to inhabit the mind of such a person, and how did they get there? I truly don't get it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I haven't seen many people claiming the leaks are faked (other than the ones that clearly have been faked). They're just nothing. Nobody gives a shit. Greenwald hates democrats and is finding new ways to insult them. Go for it dudeo. Wake me up if the Russians dig up anything actually incriminating.

This times a million. The more they keep hyping the emails and the more they turn out to be a giant snooze the less I'm likely to pay attention to anything in them.

I'm waiting to find out that Hillary was playing Fallen London and chose to accept the Mr. Eaten storyline HOW DARE SHE.
posted by winna at 10:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


New Trump Ad Shows Clinton Coughing, Falling Near 9/11 Memorial

And yet two days ago, he said that the thing he admired about Hillary was her strength.

So when was he lying? During the debate, or in this ad?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:58 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Never forget that Ben Carson was mentioned as a role model by a kid on The Wire
posted by theodolite at 11:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Marco "Wormtongue" Rubio: "Poor old Marco! Poor old Marco! Always beaten and cursed. How I hate him! I wish I could leave him!"
posted by Hairy Lobster at 11:00 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Remind me why anybody still listens to what Ben Carson has to say? Why do they keep letting him be on TV? He was a loon among loons in the primaries, he holds no political power, he has no relevant expertise. He's a fringe also-ran candidate whose brief flirtation with plausibility—which almost instantly collapsed the moment anyone focused serious attention on him—was only possible because of the abject worthlessness of the field of candidates on display. Why has he not vanished into total obscurity?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:02 AM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


I see we're being extra pedantic and obtuse about quotation marks today.

Dude. It's been a long, crazy election, but being factual and honest does really matter, no matter who you support. What you wrote had no connection with the piece you linked, with or without quotation marks. If pointing that out to you in a respectful way seems like pedantry to you, that's not a good thing. Do better.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:02 AM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


So when was he lying?

Who, Trump?!
posted by beerperson at 11:03 AM on October 11, 2016


The NBC/WSJ poll says that for the day after the debate, the numbers in the four way are Clinton +7 rather than Clinton +11 for the day before the debate. From the internals it is a matter of some Republicans abandoning Trump from roughly 48 hours when the video was leaked but returning to him after his debate.

Why they would do that based on his performance is something I cannot fathom.
posted by Justinian at 11:04 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Never forget that Ben Carson was mentioned as a role model by a kid on The Wire

He's a great role model! More kids should want to study science, and pediatric neurosurgeon is one of those "hero doctor" roles! It's not like being very skilled in one field could ever give you the idea that you know all you need to know about every other subject!
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:06 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Little Marco. Who'd have thought he'd be so loyal?
posted by Grangousier at 11:06 AM on October 11, 2016


I've read way too much damn facebook and it seems there are plenty of women who are voting for Trump purely on abortion.

Oh, that reminds me: we saw this ad from Right to Life of Michigan last night (I want to say during Jeopardy), and it's pretty damn slick. Of course, it doesn't say "Trump" or "Clinton", but it's pretty clear who the "pro-abortion candidate" is supposed to be.

Yes, I know it doesn't present the whole picture and Trump is just mouthing anti-choice rhetoric and Clinton will actually reduce abortions and so forth, but that's a pretty well-crafted ad.
posted by Etrigan at 11:07 AM on October 11, 2016


What drives a woman to join one of Trump's rallies, to scream "LOCK HER UP!" and "BUILD THAT WALL!" and worse?

As a first approximation, I’d imagine that they consider Clinton to be a deceptive schemer and are concerned about immigrants overrunning the borders. I’d also guess that these are people who aren’t particularly concerned about gender issues.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:07 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's a great role model! More kids should want to study science, and pediatric neurosurgeon is one of those "hero doctor" roles! It's not like being very skilled in one field could ever give you the idea that you know all you need to know about every other subject!

Agree 100% which is why it's so depressing that he's now famous as a joke candidate and one of the last remaining people willing to defend rape hitler
posted by theodolite at 11:08 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


The women, though? I have a much harder time grasping what the mind of a female Trump supporter must be like. My best theory is that there's a lot of internalized hatred going on in there that's being transmuted into hatred of others.

Some of the women I know who are supporting Trump are themselves victims of sexual abuse. It boggles my mind. From what I can gather (from the very limited amount I allow myself to interact with them), they really do think Hillary Clinton has more blame for women being abused than any man does, because (white) men can do no wrong. It's partially Clinton Derangement Syndrome, but also, it's internalizing of gender essentialism. That "men are just like this" and it's on women to learn how to protect themselves, how to deal with the abuse they'll inevitably receive, and to protect other women from men (but without accusing the men of doing anything; this must be just a woman-to-woman coded exchange that leaves the man as an innocent victim of his manly urges). It's exactly the Snake poem that Trump recites. That women know men are like this, so it's their own fault if they're abused. That it's on other women, and only women, to locate and point out the really predatory dudes (vs. the ones who just like to joke about being predators). It is a disgusting view when it comes from a predatory dude, but it's also heartbreaking when it comes from a woman who has been a victim of abuse. That these women have so internalized misogyny and rape culture just makes me so sad. And it makes me sad for the girls, like me, who grew up with these women as their mothers.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [48 favorites]


...Okay, I have to share this -

So, when I said upthread that I was tempted to enter the Trump Truck giveaway, and then donate the truck to my company's Syria program if I won, I wasn't really serious, it was just a sort of fantasy.

But the more I thought about it today, the more delicious it sounded - to the point that I figured I should probably go chat with a workplace friend in Legal so I could get a reality check about this. I figured they'd say something about a size limit on in-kind donations or taxes or something, and I'd realize it wasn't practical and that would calm me down.

I just went down there and we had the following conversation:
Me: So, you know that the Trump campaign is giving away a truck?...
Them: I did NOT know that.
Me: Yeah. It's some giveaway they're having...
them: I can picture the truck - it comes with a gun rack, I bet.
Me: Nope: a plow for protestors.
Them: Of course.
Me: Anyway - I was joking around with friends last night, and I said "hey, wouldn't it be great if I entered, and then if I won I could donate it to our Syria program, and -
Then: (interrupting, eagerly) Omigod, you totally should!!!!
They added the disclaimer that I should represent myself as a private citizen, which of course I would. But - y'all, I'm about to enter a giveaway for a pickup truck via the GOP tonight when I get home. And if the universe has any sense of karmic balance, the reason that the Trump campaign has been such a dumpster fire is precisely because it is setting things up so that I will end up winning and becoming the final thing that sends the Trump campaign down into a vortex of tweets or something.

Excelsior!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:11 AM on October 11, 2016 [158 favorites]


@ZeddRebel
"Trump's despicable new ad uses footage from ISIS execution videos. ISIS uses Trump's hate to recruit new executioners. Symbiosis."

"Literal execution videos of hostages being knelt down for beheading, others tossed in ditch and hosed with AK-47s. Sickening exploitation."

"This ad literally has footage of human beings being brutally murdered. That's going to be seen by kids as official campaign literature."

"And he'll get away with it because the hostage videos aren't of Americans or Westerners...just Iraqis and Syrians. Cheapening of brown lives"
posted by chris24 at 11:12 AM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted. Please drop the back-and-forth over what's the right way to paraphrase Greenwald.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:13 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Belated field report from yesterday: we were still helping out NC Dems follow up on applications for absentee ballots. The list I was working was Round Three, meaning there had been two previous attempts to contact them. As a result, the people I did get hold of often had submitted actual ballots by this point. One was filling it out as I called. I also had two people thank me for calling, which was encouraging.

I remembered to bring my headphones this time, and it does help. Call centers can be noisy.

The amusing bit was this weekend. I got a call that was recruiting volunteers for Saturday phone banking. From the place I phone bank at. I can see the logic (they recently added the option) but I was just physically there a few days earlier. I know!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:14 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Eric Trump says bragging about sexual assault is what happens when you’re an ‘alpha personality’
posted by zombieflanders at 11:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Add this to all the "build a wall" taunts kids have been shouting, the Islamophobia, and all the other hate he's inspired at schools since the primaries. This is not ok.

Yup. Another example is a cousin of mine, still in high school, that is a bazillion percent behind Trump. I try to call bullshit where I see it but he mostly just waits for his echo chamber of [few, but that's another story] friends to chime in on whatever fucked up thing he's shared, reposted, or (rarely) created on Facebook or, when opposed, just deletes the post in question altogether.

Which leads me to this jewel of a post that he recently shared when he, apparently, broke up with the girl he was dating, who'd I'd only heard described though the family tree grapevine as he put it " 'mixed' but ok... she's pretty and mexican" which... I mean is so full of shameful facepalm as to be fucked up in it's own right.

Can you imagine being that poor high school girl, pretty though she may be *sigh*, in Alabama right now? For fucks sake, I wish I could apologize to her for being treated that way.

That was the point where, I think at least, I gave up on any redemption value for them, meaning that branch of the family. I'll still give it a go when it comes to calling bullshit where I see it but I'm no longer pulling my punches and trying to keep things civil, if I don't associate with that sort of people, family or not, anymore in this life... so be it.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


The leaked e-mails show why sausage making stories are reviled by political operatives. It is not their job to know or even particularly care what their candidate/boss' position on an issue is at any given time--it is their job to spin whatever the position is in the most advantageous way possible. So a lot of these emails are basically just outlining the thinking for each position so that HRC's decisions can be met with a plan for moving forward and any necessary cautions about what a particular decision might entail. I am under no illusion that HRC has never made a political calculation in her career, but this sausage factory stuff makes even delicious things (like pro-environment stuff) look gross.

Yep it looks gross. I've been a political candidate in the past as well as worked on a couple of other people's campaigns. This part of the process is gross. It's absolutely necessary though if your after any sort of large scale success. And it does end up sounding very calculating and as if the people, including the candidate don't actually care about the actual issue. I wish it was all about just say exactly what I believe! In the exact way that I want! But no it's about trying to communicate and persuade people to our position and that involves a whole lot of thinking about who you're speaking to and also considering who your opponents are and what they're saying. It is about a battle of words at times. And all the while you constantly have to try to keep strong on you're desired position and make constant decisions on where your lines of compromise are.

Hardest thing I've ever done and from my experience the more someone actually cares about doing good for the people they are wanting to serve the harder it is. For people that have tons of empathy and compassion for otherspolitics is emotionally brutal because you have to do this shitty, calculating type strategy to be successful.
posted by Jalliah at 11:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


What drives a woman to join one of Trump's rallies, to scream "LOCK HER UP!" and "BUILD THAT WALL!" and worse? What is it like to inhabit the mind of such a person, and how did they get there? I truly don't get it.

Racism: If you are the one who is dumped upon, the chance to dump upon others is often hard to resist.

Sexism: And if your life as a woman is already not so hot, maybe Trump's stances on women look normal, familiar and status quo to you. And thus, hating on women who think they are better than you/have managed to escape that trap is not that inconceivable.

Especially if it also gets you approval from your shitty peer group. Which has also been filling your head with propaganda.
posted by emjaybee at 11:15 AM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I wanted to add to the ongoing anthology of Bible verses that oppose Trump, in case you know any wavering evangelicals:

Proverbs 14:2 Whoever fears the Lord walks uprightly,
but those who despise him are devious in their ways.

Proverbs 14:5 An honest witness does not deceive,
but a false witness pours out lies.

Proverbs 14:25 A truthful witness saves lives,
but a false witness is deceitful.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker,
but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

Also, despite what you keep hearing about "Evangelicals", I thought I should mention-- a huge portion of my family is evangelical, and all of them have been anti-Trump since the primaries, and have vocally promised not to vote for him. So it's kind of baffling to me to hear about evangelicals as a reliable voting bloc, because no one I know fits in the categories that neatly.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:16 AM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Reminder that despite how it is made, sausage is delicious [real]
posted by beerperson at 11:16 AM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


I work at home and as a news junkie, often keep tv news on in the background when I work - MSNBC usually, or sometimes CNN, but I had to stop because Trump rallies were dominating the airwaves and his pervasive voice in the background was corrosive to my mental health. I was trying to put my finger on what his droning voice reminded me of, sometimes bombastic, sometimes charismatic -- and it hit me that it was Jim Jones. That constant voice over loudspeakers alternating between nightmare scenarios to soothing paternalism to his followers -- and then brutality to any protesters. And the "only I can solve it" statements.

That similarity has stayed in the back of my mind for months and was brought to the forefront since Friday as Trump decompensates, becoming increasingly unhinged. It's been a strong enough feeling that I finally Googled it and, indeed, some cult experts do map certain traits to Jim Jones and other cult leaders: The Cult of Trump.

Maybe those of us who have trumpers in our families will have to hire deprogrammers to uncult them.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:17 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Heartbreaking" is right, melissasaurus. That's the word I was reaching for but couldn't quite find. Watching women at his rallies give themselves over to ecstatic paroxysms of Trump-flavored hatred is heartbreaking.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:17 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


OK, I know "the shackles are off" and all that, but ... surely even ads from existing footage take *some* time to edit and produce. Did they just have a file folder somewhere labeled "Insane, Demented Ads" to unleash in the event that they wanted to go Full Batshit?

... They ... they did, didn't they. They really did.
posted by kyrademon at 11:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


Remind me why anybody still listens to what Ben Carson has to say? Why do they keep letting him be on TV? He was a loon among loons in the primaries, he holds no political power, he has no relevant expertise. He's a fringe also-ran candidate whose brief flirtation with plausibility—which almost instantly collapsed the moment anyone focused serious attention on him—was only possible because of the abject worthlessness of the field of candidates on display. Why has he not vanished into total obscurity?

Because of the seven black people who still support Trump as a candidate, he's the most serious-looking and well-known. Alan Keyes carries the stink of failure, Condoleezza Rice is on team #NeverTrump, and Colin Powell still has a shred of humanity left in him and stopped answering the phone months ago.
posted by Mayor West at 11:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


It looks like there are 2 Trump Trucks, the one pictured and described on the giveaway page is a red 87 Chevy, while the one with the protester plow is white and looks like a newer Chevy Silverado variant with a custom front end and even tackier block lettering.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


And now I'm pulling for someone to win "the Trump truck."

This election...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:18 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


You can tell that Trump actually behaves the way he says he does on the tape because he said, "I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn't get there." He's not going to make up a story about not getting a woman to fuck him.

He said, "I've got to use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her." A friend of CNN anchor Erin Burnett said, "Trump took Tic Tacs, suggested I take them also. He then leaned in, catching me off guard, and kissed me almost on lips. I was really freaked out."

He said, "You can do anything...Grab them by the pussy." Jill Harth says, "Donald placed me right next to him, and that was the time when he started to go for it. He had his hand on my leg, moving forward, went for it, touching my private parts."

It's not just "locker room talk." He did the things he says he did.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:23 AM on October 11, 2016 [53 favorites]


Alaska Dispatch News/ASR Poll of AK: Trump 36%, Clinton 31%, Johnson 18%, Stein 6% [tweet]
posted by melissasaurus at 11:24 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Re what happens after a Trump defeat - someone referenced this cognitive dissonance study earlier in one of these threads, but I want to describe it in a little more detail, because I think its findings are relevant here. Back in the 1950s, some researchers were investigating a particular apocalyptic cult that had formed in the southwest, and several grad students actually embedded themselves in the cult to study it from the inside. This cult's leader had told her followers that she was in communication with aliens who could come get the cult members right before the apocalypse and bring them to a new and better life (etcetera) on a particular date in the near future. So the researchers were very interested in seeing what would happen when that date came and went. As the day approached, the cult members prepared, and at the appointed time, they gathered together waiting for the space ship. No aliens came. And what happened next was that the cult members re-committed to the cult even more strongly than they had before. They dealt with the painful cognitive dissonance caused by the failure of their leader's prediction by rejecting that failure. They even started recruiting new cult members more aggressively, and began an urgent campaign to spread their message to an even wider audience.

I just want to make the point that a crushing defeat for Trump can mean that his base actually doubles down on Trumpism rather than realizing that they were wrong all along.
posted by prefpara at 11:25 AM on October 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


virtually every woman I know had a 3 AM trauma response anxiety thing last night.
I'm not through all the comments yet, but my daughter just told me I talk in my sleep: "I have to vote" - and I'm not American.
posted by mumimor at 11:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


@AP: BREAKING: Prosecutors say they will charge Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio with criminal contempt of court over immigration patrols.

Arpaio losing his election and doing a perp walk? Yes, please!
posted by zombieflanders at 11:26 AM on October 11, 2016 [138 favorites]


Race riots, arson, running people out of town and similar acts are all organized, ideological violence supported by or winked at by the state, and they belong along side other ideological violence. What I was really describing was "violence that would affect me"*.

I am nervous about election day in my neighborhood and my part of town generally (because we are absolutely where the Trumpists would send "observers" to try to fuck shit up) and I was trying to reassure myself, but was not thinking.)

Totally tracking with you, frowner. I actually started writing a post-comment clarification to the effect of not trying to throw shade on your comment specifically, just a more general reminder to myself and everyone else that history =/= white history. (But then work intervened.)

One of the interesting tests I've been doing this year, something along the lines of a bechdel test for white supremacist history, is replacing all instances of 'people' with 'white people' to see if, and how, the meaning of the comment is changed. For instance, we've spent a lot of time in these threads remembering things like:

"Working-class people are strongly for Trump" --> "White working-class people are strongly for Trump".

"People are feeling more economically insecure" --> "White people are feeling more economically insecure".

Obviously it's not anywhere near the case that all instances of "people" are erasing black and brown voices, at least not here on Metafilter. But I'm learning, more and more, that the identification of "we" with "we whites" and "people" with "white people" is so pervasive when we (yikes, see!) talk about history that... it just has to get foregrounded at every possible turn for any kind of balanced view to be achieved.

And that's how I come back to the possibilities of election day violence. I think we need to look at how electoral backlash has happened in the past so that we can have a measured idea of how it may look in November and beyond.

Will there be Redeemers with rifles stopping voters on their way to vote in rural South Carolina? Maybe not, but that sure mirrors the idea of white people wearing MAGA hats and carrying pistols, challenging voters in urban Philadelphia....

Honestly, what makes me nervous, weirdly enough, is the clown thing. It -- it hasn't been particularly a political thing so far as I can tell, but... my god, for me there's a resonance there with the KKK that makes me really, really unsettled.

Not that history repeats itself, but it rhymes; and so we have to get the right beat if we're going to try to predict the next line.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:28 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Eric Trump knows it's all bullshit and cynically pushes full steam ahead to protect the brand.

Ah, yes. The Brand. It gives me warm snugglies to know that for a majority of the world, the word Trump will now translate to ignorant, lying, racist, misogynist, homophobic, meglomaniacal fraud.

Also, those poor souls for whom it does not so translate will feel compelled to mark themselves accordingly.
posted by Mooski at 11:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


In typical NYT fashion, they feel pity for Trump and write and huge long form piece on HRC literally rehashing the same garbage criticism and back seat driving that's been plaguing her for the entire last eternity. Gargh.

Not to defend the reporting of the NYT, but your characterization is inaccurate. It's not that "they feel pity" for anyone; you're referring to an op-ed by Republican moderate David Brooks. The other article is a long form about the Clinton campaign for NYT Magazine. The op-ed page, which is where opinions by syndicated pundits are printed, is not at all the same as NYT Magazine (nor any of the other sections), where actual reporting by journalists is printed.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:29 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


kirkaracha: "You can tell that Trump actually behaves the way he says he does on the tape because he said, "I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn't get there." He's not going to make up a story about not getting a woman to fuck him."

Exactly! To analogize: for those who study the “historical” Jesus — i.e., trying to establish likely facts about the man who was crucified sometime around the year 33 — there's something called the criterion of embarrassment. The idea is that if an account is included that undermines the image of Christ as a divine, Messianic figure, then it's likely to be true, even in the midst of an otherwise fawning account.

(my apologies to the Lord Jesus Christ for drawing even an oblique parallel between him and Donald J. Trump)
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:30 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


This may be kinda weird, but as Trump continues to destroy not only his own candidacy, but the entire Republican party, my feelings about him are starting to get more complicated. Obviously, I still have absolute distain for him and his campaign is a national nightmare even assuming he has virtually no chance of winning. On the other hand, could anyone else do more to help Clinton and Democratic congressional candidates? If the Democrats wanted to set up a Trojan horse to damage the Republican party this much that person would have to be so deep undercover that they were deliberately a total jerk for 50 years.
posted by snofoam at 11:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


We Stood By Our Men, and They Have Betrayed Us

I'm a single man in another country thousands of miles away. I have no real idea what I'm talking about. This is starting to feel like the beginnings of a real transformative moment.

Do your thing, city on a hill.
posted by vbfg at 11:31 AM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


The betting odds for this election are currently more lopsided than they have ever been -- and they almost exactly match 538's polling odds. This is comforting to me, because those figures are generated by two different sets of people (political polls only poll Americans, and Americans are excluded from the betting on Betfair, which is where this site gets its odds from) and are the result of two different sets of questions (who do you intend to vote for vs. who do you believe will win). So for them to have some conformance feels like there is an objective reality that they are both reflecting.

At the time of this writing, the betting odds reflect an 83% probability that Clinton will win.
posted by KathrynT at 11:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am under no illusion that HRC has never made a political calculation in her career, but this sausage factory stuff makes even delicious things (like pro-environment stuff) look gross.

It's like suddenly nobody in America has ever seen The West Wing, Veep, or House Of Cards before.
posted by Sara C. at 11:33 AM on October 11, 2016 [49 favorites]


Texas Observer: Why My East Texas Neighbors are Voting for Trump: Trump has provided a dark, dank hole into which these folks can dump whatever it is they’re mad about. Even contradictory views, since Trump frequently changes viewpoint in midsentence, can happily nest there, swelling and breeding like poison fungus.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


qcubed: I've lost my belief that humans can be better, that I have no confidence remaining in the American experiment….

I don't know where you live or what kind of stuff you're into for fun, but when I'm feeling that way (as I often am) I find that what really helps is to get together with an old friend, sit down by a campfire, smoke a little, and just try to tap into the ineffable beauty of creation. I'm planning to do exactly that this evening, to help take my mind off this whole toxic shitshow.

Proper self-care includes reconnecting with what's good in the world. Take care of yourself.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:40 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump has nothing to do today?

Crooked's State Dept gave special attention to "Friends of Bill" after the Haiti Earthquake. Unbelievable!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:41 AM on October 11, 2016


It's like suddenly nobody in America has ever seen The West Wing, Veep, or House Of Cards before.

The Thick of It is on Hulu, people! In the Loop is on Netflix. Veep is on HBO. No matter what your preferred streaming service, the Iannucci oeuvre is available for your edification.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:41 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


How many Ds are making ads just like this one right now?
posted by chris24 at 11:44 AM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


The Thick of It is on Hulu, people!

The Thick of It also features the character of Malcom Tucker, a Scot with a delightfully baroque vocabulary.

Hey Trump - Fuckity bye!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Arpaio losing his election and doing a perp walk? Yes, please!

PINK JUMPSUIT PLEASE
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:48 AM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


That Texas Observer piece by Joe Lansdale is gold:

Most of what Trump is selling shouldn’t convince a distracted 12-year-old, and certainly it’s hard to see how a conniving real estate tycoon represents the average person, but those are the people he has made the greatest inroads with. It certainly isn’t due to his sterling personality. He always seems like the mean little boy whose last fun moment was beating his pet hamster to death with a chair leg.
posted by suelac at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


North Carolina’s registered Republicans simply aren’t voting (so far, anyway) in anything like the numbers they typically post. This is surely the most bizarre result we’ve ever seen in decades of poll-watching…but then, by any reasonable criterion this is also the most bizarre election year in modern history. ...Is this the harbinger of a Democratic landslide to come, or just a momentary blip on the screen?
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


NYT: Why’d You Do That? Printing Donald Trump’s Vulgarities: The public editor inbox is full of readers asking why The New York Times decided to use some of the most vile language spoken by Donald Trump in the audio released Friday. The words were used both on the home page and on A1. Can you explain the thinking behind this decision?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:50 AM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


PINK JUMPSUIT PLEASE

For better or worse, the Feds aren't that childish.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:51 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Shit, y'all. It's not even 2PM, and I'm well on my way to running out of favorites today.
I haven't seen this one posted here yet: Reporters: It's Time to Burn Donald Trump.
There is less than a month left in the election. If you are a reporter who’s had dealings with Donald Trump that you believe the world should be aware of, you should publish those stories. And if you can’t bring yourself to do so, you can reach us by email here or through SecureDrop here, or make the information available to any number of other media organizations who are willing to publish true and important facts about public figures, at least while they still can.

What a day. I really have started to see the image of the penthouse of the tower as the inverse of the bunker-- holed up, manic lunatic ranting, but instead of buried and defended, it's on display for all to see. Just hoping (honestly) that this shit doesn't end with cyanide and lead.
posted by rp at 11:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


so, this is maybe too far down a long, long thread, but has an anti-HRC conspiracy theory emerged yet in which Trump is cast as a puppet and tool of the Clintons, used against the GOP apparatus of the past thirty years? I think there are hints of it in the "but that was when he was a Democrat" reactions to the Access tape.

If it doesn't exist now, allow me to predict that it will emerge after Hillary's landslide election as a fundraising tool intended to prop up the extant GOP obstructionist tactics, and that unless the downticket races dump the Koch-Ryan-McConnell folks wholesale we'll see House and Senate obstructionism that will make the anti-Obama obstreperousness look like outright cooperation.
posted by mwhybark at 11:52 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton has done and is doing more to help Clinton win that Trump has or ever will do. I mean, I get what you're saying, but let's not credit Trump for the hard-fought success of others. He's already had far too much of that in his life.

I agree, and Clinton is a real-life superheroine. We're also a ways from the election, but if Dems can get control of both houses despite gerrymandered districting, I'm not sure it's wrong to give Trump some credit for that (even though he is doing it for all the wrong reasons). I don't think acknowledging that takes away from good Dem candidates fighting hard to win against a stacked deck. If the horror show has to get worse in order to have a unified government that can actually do good shit for 2 years, then I'm increasingly okay with that even though it is also poisoning our minds.
posted by snofoam at 11:53 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


so, this is maybe too far down a long, long thread, but has an anti-HRC conspiracy theory emerged yet in which Trump is cast as a puppet and tool of the Clintons, used against the GOP apparatus of the past thirty years?

That's been going on since more or less Day One of the Trump campaign. Anecdata: Most of the people I saw espousing it on Facebook have since become Trumpistae.
posted by Etrigan at 11:54 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


hoping (honestly) that this shit doesn't end with cyanide and lead.

or Bugs Bunny being floated in on a watery bed...
posted by Namlit at 11:55 AM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


To clarify, by credit, I do mean credit for being an unprecedented and unimaginable failure as a person and as a candidate.
posted by snofoam at 11:56 AM on October 11, 2016


zombieflanders: @AP: BREAKING: Prosecutors say they will charge Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio with criminal contempt of court over immigration patrols.

GOOD. Joe Arpaio is a perfect example of how fascist politics can create elected tyrants right here in the good old US of A. That man is hands-down the worst thing about the state of Arizona. May his downfall be both swift and total.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:56 AM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


Anne Karni at Politico: “Hillary and Al’s change of climate:
Two former rivals come together to defeat global warming and Donald Trump.”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Christie: "That kind of talk and conversation even in private is just unacceptable...I was really disturbed and disappointed by it and embarrassed for him and his family. Trump 2016!"

Ted Cruz: "These comments are disturbing and inappropriate, there is simply no excuse for them. Trump 2016!"
posted by kirkaracha at 11:57 AM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


James O'Keefe has posted video with a DNC commissioner talking about GOTV efforts and calling them voter fraud.

Oh, for pity's sake, that's pathetic. That weak sauce shouldn't even be dignified with words to refute, just an eye roll and a vaguely masturbatory gesture.
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


On Sex and Power in the Campaign, From the Women Who Cover It [podcast featuring Maureen Dowd, Maggie Haberman (reporter assigned to Trump), and Carolyn Ryan (political editor); listening now, so can't vouch for the content yet]
posted by melissasaurus at 12:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just hoping (honestly) that this shit doesn't end with cyanide and lead.

FADE IN: TRUMP TOWER PENTHOUSE, ELECTION NIGHT

TRUMP: Well, it's over. Crooked Hillary rigged the system against me and those traitors at the RNC hung me out to dry. For the first time in my life, I'm a loser. There's only one way to deal with a humiliating defeat like this. Chris? Chris, get over here. I had Meredith brew some poison, you're going to drink it on my behalf. Defeat is honorable as long as somebody kills themselves. I learned that from a Japanese guy, very smart guy.

MEREDITH (carrying bucket of toxic liquid): Oh Mr. Trump, no! You said this was for cleaning the spray-tan off the bathroom tile!

TRUMP: Well, if there's any left over. Chris? Get away from that elevator, Chris, I see what you're doing.

ERIC: ONLY BLOOD SACRIFICE WILL ATONE

TRUMP: Shut up, Eric.

ERIC: *skreeeeeeeeee*

TRUMP (to camera): You see what I have to deal with?
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [52 favorites]


Anecdata: Most of the people I saw espousing it on Facebook have since become Trumpistae.

*hangs head in shame*

I floated the idea that Trump was in as a ringer about a year ago. Granted, I thought he was in on behalf of Jeb!

I am currently With Her.
posted by Sara C. at 12:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here's the thing about Arpaio. And about Trump. You know the kind of people who support those guys? They watch Cops. Long-running (since 1983), highly successful show. Watch one episode and you'll get some insight you don't want. It ran on Fox for eons, and then Spike picked it up. Watch one episode. I dare you. It will give you a chilling insight into the way people think.
posted by Peach at 12:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Regarding the NC GOP turnout, it might be because Trump's relationship with the party is in such flux that even the diehards don't want to commit to an entire ballot yet. Which sounds good to me.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:05 PM on October 11, 2016


so, this is maybe too far down a long, long thread, but has an anti-HRC conspiracy theory emerged yet in which Trump is cast as a puppet and tool of the Clintons, used against the GOP apparatus of the past thirty years? I think there are hints of it in the "but that was when he was a Democrat" reactions to the Access tape.
.

As Etrigan posted yes it's been around from day 1. Not really wide spread but since Friday I've seen it evolve to include Ryan, which is nuts and barely makes sense but yeah. So Trump and Ryan are Clinton puppets.

Counter to that is the Paul Ryan conspiracy. Ryan is the one that released the tape in order to destroy Trump and Ryan is the Clinton puppet.
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 PM on October 11, 2016


> I just want to make the point that a crushing defeat for Trump can mean that his base actually doubles down on Trumpism rather than realizing that they were wrong all along.

There's no question about that. What we're all waiting to find out is just how big that base actually is. (By the time the election rolls around, I'm pretty sure Trump vote = base.) Let's hope for all our sakes it turns out to be a pathetically small minority.
posted by languagehat at 12:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


@TMannWSJ: Bridget Kelly's lawyer just said she talked to Chris Christie about the GW Bridge lane closures before they began

Not a good day for members of Trump's inner circle.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm expecting some truly horrible shit to come out of the Trump campaign in the coming weeks. Truly, mind-bogglingly horrible. I mean, I doubt there will be much *new*, per se, but it's going to be higher profile and shrieked as loudly and widely as possible. National ad buys instead of tweets.

If it happens as I predict, I hope it backfires. Hard.
posted by kyrademon at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


People made fun of #romneydeathrally. They aren't doing #trumpdeathrally because they're afraid of being mistaken for actual press.
posted by delfin at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, Ryan's account is still tweeting out these #BetterWay tweets about opposing regulation on coal, as is his party isn't in the middle of a civil war all around him. Does he not know?
posted by zachlipton at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Billy Bush Reportedly Bragged About the Trump Tape to NBC Staff Before It Was Released
The now-suspended Today host revealed at an August party that he had a “tape of Trump being a real dog,” which prompted Access Hollywood staff members to track the video down, sources told “Page Six.” However, as it turns out, Bush never told NBC News bosses about the tape when he first joined Today in May, and they’re reportedly fuming. The video may even violate the “morality clause” in Bush’s contract, according to sources.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


From that "simply aren't voting" link.
Other North Carolina poll-watchers, including HuffPo, CNN, and the New York Times, have already reported that applications for ABM ballots by Republicans are down substantially this year in North Carolina (by 27%, according to the Times).

This is exactly what my last couple rounds of phone banking has been focused on--from the other side. I'm not even in NC, but my state is safe and we help where we're needed. This is what a competent ground game looks like.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


I saw Justinian mentioned the pre and post debate numbers in the new NBC/WSJ poll, but did see a link or the overall numbers. Basically another crushing poll for Trump:

10/8-10 (so post-tape and partially post-2nd debate)
Clinton 46
Trump 37
Johnson 8

Head to head, Clinton leads by 50-40
posted by chris24 at 12:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


There's no question about that. What we're all waiting to find out is just how big that base actually is. (By the time the election rolls around, I'm pretty sure Trump vote = base.) Let's hope for all our sakes it turns out to be a pathetically small minority.

This strikes me as the really important takeaway from this horrific election.

If Trump gets above say 45% of the popular vote, then we might as well close down the American experiment, because, short of a new Civil War and/or a radical ethno/geographic/economic re-sorting, there is simply no way forward for the kind of truly inclusive, tolerant democracy we claim to be working towards.
posted by Chrischris at 12:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


About the Atlantic/PRRI poll that was linked to couple times above:

They don't have a rating from 538, but this is apparently because they don't do a lot of election polling. (Their name stands for Public Religion Research Institute. They're a non-profit that mostly does surveys of religious and cultural issues.) Their methodology seems very solid, though, better than most election pollsters. They called more cellphones than landlines. They asked cellphone users if they also owned a landline, and vice-versa, and used this info to weight their data by how likely people were to be contacted. They used random digit dialing. This gets you closer to a truly random sample, but it's expensive to do with cellphones, so most pollsters don't do it. The poll was conducted in both English and Spanish. (Local pollsters in states with large Hispanic populations often do this. National polls almost never bother with this.) They determined likely voters by asking people if they were definitely or probably going to vote. This allows them to pick up on changes in intention to vote that pollsters who rely people's previous voting track record to filter likely voters miss. (Selzer also does this.)

So: They've got Clinton up by an 11% margin, along with a sharp increase in people saying they're probably not going to vote compared to PRRI's previous presidential polls, and sharp drops in Trump support among women and independents. It's important to take into account that the poll was conducted between Oct. 5 and 9, so only about half the interviews were conducted after Trumps 'grab them by the pussy' audio was released.

As a Clinton supporter, I'm happy about this. And the sophistication of PRRI's methodology makes me take their results seriously. We'll have to wait a few a days for results of reliable polls conducted entirely after the Trump tape and second debate.

PRRI write up
topline/methodology [pdf]
posted by nangar at 12:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm expecting some truly horrible shit to come out of the Trump campaign in the coming weeks. Truly, mind-bogglingly horrible. I mean, I doubt there will be much *new*, per se, but it's going to be higher profile and shrieked as loudly and widely as possible. National ad buys instead of tweets.

Yep. What we are in for is a direct link into Trump's brain. His ID. I'm not being sarcastic either.
Everything will be what speaks to him, what get's him excited and satisfies his pathological needs. Of course people like Bannon and other right wing nuts will be feeding him stuff but the only filter is gonna be 'This is what I think and there fore it is the ultimate truth and best 'truth' in the whole wide world.' He has a base that will cheer what ever he does and that's the only thing he needs right now to prove he's right.

I'm not looking forward to it.
posted by Jalliah at 12:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donnie can't resist hitting back when he is attacked, now he's attacking high ranking GOP people who will give it right back. It's going to be a bloodbath. I hope John McCain are calling any mainstream operatives they know that might still be working for Donnie's campaign that they should quit now or they will never work for a GOP campaign again. By election day he'll have no ground game, no exit polling, nothing. Ryan pulling his support is practically conceding, FFS.
posted by vrakatar at 12:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker, your comment makes it sound like you've been phone-banking trying to get Republicans not to vote. I'm not sure what to think about that. I agree that strategically the best thing for the Democratic party and for America might be if the GOP just doesn't show up and hands the election to the Dems by default, but if you're talking about intentionally trying to persuade people to disenfranchise themselves then I'm actually not really cool with that. It's fine if people make that decision on their own, but it seems fundamentally undemocratic for a political campaign to actively work toward that result.

Am I just misinterpreting you or is that actually what's going on?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Talking Trump Zoltar Machine Mysteriously Appears On Brooklyn Street Corner
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


I think ChurchHatesTucker has been calling likely Clinton voters reminding THEM to vote, to get their ABM requests out, to vote early if they have that ability.
posted by KathrynT at 12:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yep. What we are in for is a direct link into Trump's brain. His ID. I'm not being sarcastic either.

My brain presented me with a horrific mélange of Call of Duty gameplay videos and Carl's Jr. ads before some self-preservation circuits kicked in and presented me with some soothing bunnies in a field of flowers.
posted by winna at 12:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm surprised some New Yorkers didn't immediately destroy the crap out of the Zoltar machine and the naked statue.
posted by zachlipton at 12:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yep. What we are in for is a direct link into Trump's brain. His ID. I'm not being sarcastic either.

My brain presented me with a horrific mélange of Call of Duty gameplay videos and Carl's Jr. ads before some self-preservation circuits kicked in and presented me with some soothing bunnies in a field of flowers.

Funny... what I saw was basically just the second half of Event Horizon.
posted by selfnoise at 12:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


By midnight on November 8th, give or take, we should have a pretty good idea of how many people can fit into a basket of deplorables.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


qcubed: At this point, proper self-care is sounding like self-medication….

Well, I mean, I think that can be a valid strategy if used judiciously. Some substances have the ability to allow one to temporarily disconnect from the very human anxieties of the moment and focus on the gorgeous interconnectedness of the natural world. Massachusetts has a recreational cannabis measure on the ballot this November.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's going to get uglier and uglier, but it's not going to change anything. He's already dropped his nuke and she brushed it off.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's Bill Carlos Bill, to his friends.

Bill Carl Bills, surely.
posted by cortex at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


so, this is maybe too far down a long, long thread, but has an anti-HRC conspiracy theory emerged yet in which Trump is cast as a puppet and tool of the Clintons, used against the GOP apparatus of the past thirty years?

This type of thing showed up in my fb feed this very morning, posted by a Bernie Supporter-turned-Stein Supporter friend. Articles like this, this, and this.

The post was more anti-DNC and anti-MSM, but the comments on my friend's post are a continuation of the naive cynicism "oligarchs using the mainstream media to dupe the voters into perpetuating the two-party system wake up sheeple" that depressed the hell out of me during the primaries and I'm now finding easier to ignore.
posted by chaoticgood at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


turns out the basket of deplorables also makes a pretty good dustbin of history!

oh and look, it's made of wicker
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker, your comment makes it sound like you've been phone-banking trying to get Republicans not to vote. I'm not sure what to think about that

Heh. No. We're chasing people (D and U) to make sure they got their application to vote absentee. It's just late enough that I'm getting people who got ballots already. We don't ask how they're voting.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Whoa. Al Gore looks old.
posted by acidic at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's Bill Carlos Bill, to his friends.

Bill Carl Bills, surely.

Actually, it's Bills Carl Bill.

[sorry, that's one of my pets peeve]
posted by Groundhog Week at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


I drove past homes that had "Vote Republican" signs today. No candidate names, just "Vote Republican."

Is that a way of saying they're proud to be Republicans but not really backing Trump?

Or are they just trying to indicate they're voting for Trump while skating away from any hackles an actual Trump sign would raise?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


To be honest I'm waiting for my ballot in the mail like I ordered a present for myself. In Maine get to vote for Hillary, legal weed, gun control, and taxing the rich all at once. I can't wait!
posted by selfnoise at 12:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


Daily Kos: " I am a speech-language pathologist, and yes, I do sometimes work on helping people coordinate breathing with speech, so I know something about this. But that is not what is going on here. And no, it is not cocaine or allergies. Donald Trump is exhibiting a classic symptom of anxiety displayed in some individuals. "
posted by anastasiav at 12:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


selfnoise: Those down-ballot races deserve your attention as well. Vote your conscience.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 12:36 PM on October 11, 2016


Re: "locker room conversation," I think we're playing into Trump's tiny hands by debating what is said or not said in that kind of environment.

It was always just a diversion and a gaslighting technique, since by definition women can't know exactly what is said in the locker room or not, and it's designed to devolve into a sex-negative vs. sex-positive argumentative morass. Don't take the bait.

Focus on destroying the distraction at a gut level. Because the conversation wasn't in a locker room (or any all-male environment) at all.

Trump's comments were made on the set of a soap opera. Archetypically, you can't get more opposite of a "locker room" environment, but you don't even need to explain that. It's a simple and inarguable gut level refutation.
posted by msalt at 12:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Same here, selfnoise. In California, I get to vote for Hillary, Kamala Harris, legal weed, gun control,and abolishing the death penalty, among other propositions. Ballots started going out yesterday. I'm pumped.
posted by yasaman at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is the first election in a while that I'm not doing vote-by-mail, because sending mail is a tedious chore that doesn't come with a free sticker. But now I'm kind of jealous of all the early voting!
posted by Sara C. at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Talking Trump Zoltar Machine Mysteriously Appears On Brooklyn Street Corner

This is the best thing I have seen all day.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


The post was more anti-DNC and anti-MSM, but the comments on my friend's post are a continuation of the naive cynicism "oligarchs using the mainstream media to dupe the voters into perpetuating the two-party system wake up sheeple" that depressed the hell out of me during the primaries and I'm now finding easier to ignore.

This reminds me to note that in several of the recent polls, the Green vote has pretty well collapsed down to its usual 2%.

The Libertarian vote looks to be more steadily in high single digits. I don't know how that will play out in November -- it could do what it historically does and go mostly back to Trump, it could be split between the two or even break for Clinton, or hell it may just represent a solid and growing bloc of [white] people that have resigned themselves to voting none of the above.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2016


> Bills Carl Bill

Bills Chuck Bill. As in, how many bills could Bill chuck if Bill Chuck could veto bills. Or... something like that.
posted by Westringia F. at 12:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sara C., LA County at least sent out the primary ballots with stickers, and I think my parents' ballots in Riverside County came with stickers too. I'm hoping they'll do the same with the general election.
posted by yasaman at 12:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


selfnoise: Those down-ballot races deserve your attention as well. Vote your conscience.

Oh don't worry on that front. I just don't have time to go into the clusterfuck of my local mayoral election here.
posted by selfnoise at 12:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Evidently InfoWars is offering people $5k to shout "Bill Clinton is a rapist" at rallies. Happened twice so far today.
posted by acidic at 12:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


This election is definitely living rent-free in my head right now, and Trump's turn to the erratic and extreme core is making me particularly nervous. To keep myself in a productive mindset, I'm trying to spend less time anxiously hunched over the keyboard and more time volunteering. (Oh, and getting at least the minimal amount of work done. I have a life.) Nothing going on this fall feels particularly emotionally healthy.

I just signed up to work some shifts from the National Voter Assistance Hotline. It looks like--based on the email soliciting volunteers--that I'll get training, but I'd love to hear from anyone who's done that before, whether this year or previously.
posted by Leslie Knope at 12:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Aw, Brooklyn doesn't have any cool extra initiatives to vote about. :-(
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, earlier this election season, approximately one trillion months ago, I came across an article (that I'll be damned if I can find again but it was probably from Vox or Slate or the like) about Trump's high-stakes, all-or-nothing business style and how it might affect his political strategy. I'm sure I'm super-over-simplifying but it went something like this: Say you borrowed 100 million dollars from the bank against a new hotel project but now your hotel is only worth 50 million dollars. You can barely keep up with the interest payments and you know the bank is just about to seize your shiny new hotel. Now, the conventional things to do with an under-performing property would be to try to cut some costs, fiddle with your pricing, do some more marketing, maybe even some renovations & improvements, etc... But, these normal things might only improve your hotel's worth from 50 million to maybe 55 or 60 million. This doesn't help you because the bank is still going to seize your hotel and those extra 5 or 10 million dollars of value you might generate are just going to go to the bank. When you're this far underwater, you can't do normal things that'll gain you 10 or 20 percent. You have to try really out-there, long-shot, one-in-a-million chance stuff that'll put you up by 80, 100, 120 percent. That's the only way out of a hole that deep.

Anyways, the point is that in this election, Trump may be realizing (either consciously or not) that he's right now in exactly that kind of deep hole and there's nothing left to do go full tilt. I am not really looking forward to what that might look like.
posted by mhum at 12:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary's new video targeting Mormons is really top-notch.
posted by argybarg at 12:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [37 favorites]


anastasiav Donald Trump is exhibiting a classic symptom of anxiety displayed in some individuals.

I watched the CinC thing, and my partner didn't. While trying to describe his mannerisms to her, one of the things I brought up was the almost involuntary grimace+sharp inhale he did after answering questions that actually required some forethought or -knowledge. Like his body was betraying his bullshitting, afraid of being called out.
Nice to see someone with more credentials backing up my instinct.
posted by rp at 12:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am jealous of everyone who gets I voted stickers or pins. I asked about this once and was informed that a sticker would be like getting paid to vote. :(
posted by xyzzy at 12:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


My subdivision gets to vote on whether or not to remain a dry enclave in the city. I'm not worried about the wet side losing though because there's no real opposition on the dry side and our side is supported by HEB because they want to build a new grocery store.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Regarding the NC turnout anomaly--why do Republicans prefer ABM and Democrats in-person early voting?
posted by HotToddy at 12:49 PM on October 11, 2016


xyzzy, who told you that?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:50 PM on October 11, 2016


Daily Kos: "I am a speech-language pathologist, and yes, I do sometimes work on helping people coordinate breathing with speech, so I know something about this. But that is not what is going on here. And no, it is not cocaine or allergies. Donald Trump is exhibiting a classic symptom of anxiety displayed in some individuals."

Hmm. You would think that perhaps doing rigorous debate preparation would help alleviate the anxiety.

Nah. Let's wing it...
posted by krinklyfig at 12:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I asked my (recently made a citizen) spouse, Comrade Doll, if she'd like to vote by mail.

"Hell no. This is my first election. I want to go into the booth, push my buttons, get my sticker, and give the stinkeye to people outside with Trump signs."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


I can't believe there isn't more discussion of the failure of Trump's Taj Mahal Casino. Literally the only qualification he even claims to be president is his business "success."

Trump Taj Mahal closes after 26 years; nearly 3,000 workers lose jobs
posted by msalt at 12:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


I would bet that he's not self-aware enough to understand that what he's feeling is anxiety.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Early Voting Could Hand Election to Hillary Clinton Well Before Nov. 8
Democrats are requesting more absentee ballots in Florida than they were at this point in 2012, with increases of 50 percent in the heavily Hispanic areas around Miami and Orlando. In North Carolina, where Mitt Romney built enough of a lead in early voting four years ago to edge out a victory over President Obama, Democrats are requesting mail-in ballots in larger numbers than in 2012, while Republicans’ participation is declining.

These results will have more impact than ever this year, as record numbers of people are expected to cast their votes early. So many Americans will have voted by Election Day — more than 40 percent in swing states, according to the Clinton campaign — that the winner could be known before November.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


xyzzy, who told you that?
The poll worker.
posted by xyzzy at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding the NC turnout anomaly--why do Republicans prefer ABM and Democrats in-person early voting?

I'm not sure why, exactly, but if you check out the anti-voter-ID ruling from earlier this summer, it turned out that ABM (absentee by mail) was the only form of early voting which was more favored by white people (who tend more R) than black people (who tend more D) - and that the GOP legislators had explicitly used this as a criterion for not limiting ABM while limiting early in-person voting.

If I were to venture a guess as to why this is, though, one factor may be that Republicans (as well as white North Carolinians, due to demographic changes) tend to be older, and therefore more likely to have limited mobility.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I am jealous of everyone who gets I voted stickers or pins. I asked about this once and was informed that a sticker would be like getting paid to vote. :(

That is bizarre. Sounds very Tea-Party-esque.

They always have them at my polling place, which is very rural. It's in a fire station, and on voting day is always kept in order by civic minded retirees, who are polite and helpful.
posted by krinklyfig at 12:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hmm. You would think that perhaps doing rigorous debate preparation would help alleviate the anxiety.

Trump would have to recognize he has reason to see a doctor and get a diagnosis before he understands he could have anxiety, or any number of other concerns. He would see that as a flaw, and probably a weakness, because that's how his worldview works.

What in our experience with Trump suggests he would ever go through that kind of thought process?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is the healthiest person to ever run for office and all of his test results are "positive." I know it, you know it, we all know it.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


it turned out that ABM (absentee by mail) was the only form of early voting which was more favored by white people (who tend more R) than black people (who tend more D)

ABM is more convenient, but if you come from a community that has been consistently and systematically disenfranchised, I can certainly see the appeal of going to the poll and pulling the levels (or pushing the buttons or marking the ballot) in person, and seeing your vote registered right there, on the spot.

Voting by mail involves a greater level of trust in the system, and I would not blame anyone, particularly blacks, for wanting to be sure their vote is counted.
posted by suelac at 1:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


What in our experience with Trump suggests he would ever go through that kind of thought process?

I think Dr. Bornstein would tell him don't worry about it, you're doing great, just keep on truckin'.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Evidently InfoWars is offering people $5k to shout "Bill Clinton is a rapist" at rallies. Happened twice so far today.

In WHAT WORLD do you accomplish anything by convincing someone to heckle the candidate's husband at a rally? Anyone who would react with anything other than an eye-roll is already voting Trump. Who are you trying to sway? The "middle school boy" demographic is thoroughly under-represented in most polling, but you may find you have some issues getting them to the polls on election day.
posted by Mayor West at 1:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


That is bizarre. Sounds very Tea-Party-esque.
Red district, blue state. The particular year I asked I was voting against a former AG running for Congress who personally threatened to take away my drivers license for being unable to pay for cancer surgery. I am happy to report that the district went blue that year.
posted by xyzzy at 1:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


I am jealous of everyone who gets I voted stickers or pins. I asked about this once and was informed that a sticker would be like getting paid to vote. :(

That is bizarre. Sounds very Tea-Party-esque.


Yeah, as long as the stickers don't have the gold fringe, they aren't admiralty stickers and thus can be given out freely.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


The women, though? I have a much harder time grasping what the mind of a female Trump supporter must be like.

The ones I know seem to think Clinton is a corrupt crook and maybe Trump is too but he is a businessman like them (well, one is a grade school teacher in a blue state). I know for certain at less than one of them have a history of being assaulted by an intimate partner. And 2/3 of them are 100% anti abortion.
posted by tilde at 1:05 PM on October 11, 2016


It's somewhat interesting that CNN is showing all of Hillary's rally in Florida. Usually they mention that she's at a rally, and then interview a Trump surrogate for an hour. Maybe it's just because it's the first appearance of Gore, but it could indicate a change in coverage.
posted by diogenes at 1:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Talking Trump Zoltar Machine Mysteriously Appears On Brooklyn Street Corner

Appearing any other way would be a disappointment, after all.
posted by Gelatin at 1:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Okay, I feel like I recognize the voice...t it's killing me that I can't figure out who it is.

Alec Baldwin, I think.
posted by amtho at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


In WHAT WORLD do you accomplish anything by convincing someone to heckle the candidate's husband at a rally?

You accomplish tearing away a little bit more of that candidate's self esteem and humanity; and that of all women.

This is not about winning. It's about hurting people they view as lesser than themselves. It's about breaking down the humanity of women so that you can abuse them.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


If I were to venture a guess as to why this is, though, one factor may be that Republicans (as well as white North Carolinians, due to demographic changes) tend to be older, and therefore more likely to have limited mobility.

I don't know if this applies at all in southern cities, but here in Chicago (city proper) most people have to go to the post office or a dropbox to post outgoing mail, either because they just have a mail slot or because their neighbors are mail thieves*... whereas in more suburban areas or in smaller towns, people are more likely to be able to put outgoing mail in their box, put up the little red flag and have the carrier take it. So between waiting for the ballot to come in the mail, filling it out and then taking it somewhere, maybe people just figure it's easier to go to the local library or whatever and early-vote.

Plus at least in Chicago the postal service takes forever to deliver mail, but maybe that's not generalizable either....

On preview, also this:

Voting by mail involves a greater level of trust in the system, and I would not blame anyone, particularly blacks, for wanting to be sure their vote is counted.

*ask my AskMe history how I know!
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm watching the Clinton/Gore climate change rally right now live on FB.

I had forgotten that Gore was from the south. I found his accent a little jarring at first, TBH. I'm also sorta sad he shaved.

Fascinating that so much of the (collegiate) audience is too young to remember Hurricane Andrew and the 2000 election.
posted by anastasiav at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mod note: November 8, 2016: Hillary Clinton First Woman Elected President

Donald Trump: Says who?

The votes. All of them.

fake--for now
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


It's somewhat interesting that CNN is showing all of Hillary's rally in Florida. Usually they mention that she's at a rally, and then interview a Trump surrogate for an hour. Maybe it's just because it's the first appearance of Gore, but it could indicate a change in coverage.

You must have been asleep the last 24 hours where Trump has been shitting on CNN with lies non-stop along with "CNN sucks" chants at his rallies.
posted by Talez at 1:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


@BraddJaffy:
Al Gore in FL: “Your vote really, really, really counts…consider me as an Exhibit A”

Crowd: “You won! You won!”

posted by zombieflanders at 1:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [78 favorites]


This is not about winning. It's about hurting people they view as lesser than themselves. It's about breaking down the humanity of women so that you can abuse them.

Yes. And the more I see of it, the harder it is to convince myself that wishing ill on those people is wrong.
posted by Mooski at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


>> The women, though? I have a much harder time grasping what the mind of a female Trump supporter must be like.

> The ones I know seem to think Clinton is a corrupt crook and maybe Trump is too but he is a businessman like them (well, one is a grade school teacher in a blue state). I know for certain at less than one of them have a history of being assaulted by an intimate partner. And 2/3 of them are 100% anti abortion.

Well but and also internalized misogyny is a thing and it is vicious.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Red district, blue state. The particular year I asked I was voting against a former AG running for Congress who personally threatened to take away my drivers license for being unable to pay for cancer surgery.

Wow. That is shocking.

I am happy to report that the district went blue that year.

That's good, but still... holy crap, dude. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


It was rather gratifying to hear the crowd shouting YOU WON when Gore brought up the insanity of the FL debacle.
posted by xyzzy at 1:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is a little silly, but what the heck: Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint. (Farewell And Adieu You Fair Spanish Ladies...)
posted by gwint at 1:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [57 favorites]


Gabriel Rosenberg ‏@gnrosenberg
Woah. Popular Rightwing blog, Ace of Spades HQ just endorsed Paul Ryan's Democratic opponent. GOP down-ballot apocalypse brewing.
Trump Declares, Basically, the Start of the #NeverRyan Movement
Good.

We are having an important argument: Who are the rulers, and who are the ruled?

In a democracy, the voters are supposed to be the rulers.

But people like Ryan think that they themselves are the rulers, and must manipulate the opinions of proletarian trash to trick them into voting for the 'right thing" (in Ryan's case, he defines the right things as whatever the Chamber of Commerce demands of him).

So let's resolve this.

Vote for Ryan's Democratic opponent, whoever that is. Boot him out of Congress, and badly damage any hopes he has to be president anytime soon.
Vote for Ryan's Democratic opponent, whoever that is.

whoever that is.

CIVIL. FUCKING. WAR.
posted by Talez at 1:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [101 favorites]



This is a little silly, but what the heck

Rachel Maddow played all of the most recent Bad Lip Reading on the debates, so I think everyone's feeling a little loopy right now tbh
posted by zutalors! at 1:15 PM on October 11, 2016


I would bet that he's not self-aware enough to understand that what he's feeling is anxiety.

DONALD TRUMP TAKES THE VOIGHT-KAMPFF TEST

It’s your birthday. Someone gives you a calfskin wallet. How do you react?

"I would say thank you. I would be so gracious, you've never seen someone so gracious. A wallet is a very appropriate gift for a billionaire like myself. I have a lot of money, believe me. I'm always needing more wallets to put it in. I'm very liquid. So much liquidity. Cash like you wouldn't believe."

You’ve got a little boy. He shows you his butterfly collection plus the killing jar. What do you do?

"I pat Eric on the head and tell him to go show it to his brother so I can get back to making deals. Eric, always with the killing jars. Great kid."

You’re watching television. Suddenly you realize there’s a wasp crawling on your arm.

"Well, first of all, the groundskeeping staff is getting fired. I don't allow wasps on my properties. There are no wasps at Mar-a-Lago. If there's a wasp, somebody isn't doing their job. And let me add that whatever I'm watching on TV is not CNN, a terrible network with very low ratings."

You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?

"I'm gonna read you the lyrics to a song called 'The Snake.' Completely explains why I'm not helping the tortoise. Tortoises are reptiles, just like snakes. Very dangerous, treacherous animals. I hear most of them are venomous. You can't go around helping tortoises. They bite you and you die. It's in their nature."

Describe in single words, only the good things that come into your mind. About your mother.

"Tremendous. Gold. Hair."
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [51 favorites]


Mod note: Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint

Megyn Kelly is giddy. "My post-Fox contract is going to be yuge!" fake
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


DONALD TRUMP TAKES THE VOIGHT-KAMPFF TEST

Clearly a replicant. He answered the questions.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


BREAKING: Yom Kippur extended by 6 hours to give Americans extra time to atone for 2016 campaign.
Get on it, people!
posted by Talez at 1:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint

This is exactly what I didn't know I needed today. Megan Kelly singing "Ladies of Spain" while Huckabee acknowledges that his metaphor is falling apart. Ah, ok, some tension released.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


ABM was the system that I witnessed Republican Voter Fraud with in 1972. Ballots sent to nursing homes and hijacked by the owners who had GOP workers fill them out and 'witness' for residents who couldn't sign for themselves. And there you get a big bunch of votes for Nixon and all the downballot Repubs. I feel at times that not reporting this and raising Holy Hell was the biggest mistake of my life (but I didn't want to implicate my Republican Activist mother who was the reason I was there to witness it). And I cringe every time I see statistics about "Over 65s" leaning Republican.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


it's like im looking into a completely different, more posh internet"

re: two Canadians debating* the potential fallout of the "grab them by the" video.

*politely, of course
posted by porpoise at 1:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint.
And the idea was, the Donald comes to the nearest woman and that woman, she'd start poundin' and hollerin' and screamin' and sometimes the Donald would go away. Sometimes he wouldn't go away. Sometimes the Donald, he looks right into you. Right into your eyes. You know the thing about Trump, he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes. Like a doll's eye. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'. Until he grabs your pussy and those black eyes roll over white.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 1:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint.

And when she calls him on it, he doubles down the fact that Quint might have died but he saved other people. FFS, Huckabee, go watch the film again. Quint is a fucking Ahab analogy who destroys himself and his boat in his mad quest...hang on...wait...he's not completely wrong here...

Trump is Quint, and he's destroying himself and the boat right now. But the Shark is the base. That's the metaphor.
posted by nubs at 1:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


And it's Brody, who hates the water, and not shark-killing expert Quint, who does the shark in. Yeesh.
posted by Gelatin at 1:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Vote for Ryan's Democratic opponent, whoever that is.

whoever that is.

CIVIL. FUCKING. WAR.

Great for the Dems of course but how idiotic are these people? "Hey we're mad! Lets show them and shoot ourselves in the foot."
Or I guess as a whole they really don't understand how the government works.
posted by Jalliah at 1:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sally Kohn ‏@sallykohn
Some raw unedited footage from Trump rally yesterday, including chants of "Hang her in the streets"

RIP American Political Discourse 1776-2016.
posted by Talez at 1:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Megan Kelly singing "Ladies of Spain" while Huckabee acknowledges that his metaphor is falling apart.

[real]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


> Sally Kohn ‏@sallykohn
Some raw unedited footage from Trump rally yesterday, including chants of "Hang her in the streets"

RIP American Political Discourse 1776-2016.

Let's not pretend that Trumpists are unprecedented. Do recall that a whole lot of lynching happened in those years, and that a whole lot of electeds supported it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


The #NeverRyan thing is a dumb play because there's no way Ryan is losing the seat, sadly.
posted by drezdn at 1:30 PM on October 11, 2016


how long can one man survive on a diet of nothing but schadenfreude, popcorn, and whiskey? i don't know, but i'll let y'all know when i find out
posted by entropicamericana at 1:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [37 favorites]


A startling fact from Jill Lepore:

"Until 1896, not a single Election Day passed in the United States without someone getting killed at the polls."
posted by theodolite at 1:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Anxiety is often experienced as anger. If you have a certain mindset.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 1:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Regarding the NC turnout anomaly--why do Republicans prefer ABM and Democrats in-person early voting?

It's partly because GOP voters are older.

Mainly it's because African-Americans vote in person: they have a cultural memory of the time when they blocked from voting, and still think an in-person vote is closer to the bare metal of democracy than a postal ballot. It won't be lost in a pile. They want to show up, be counted, and have their votes counted. If their vote is challenged, they want to be there for it. As a result, Dem GOTV work in NC has focused more on early voting, especially on weekends.
posted by holgate at 1:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


20 minute video of All Seeing Trump doing his routine
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


This was already covered above but I came here to say that Quint thought he could handle the job, and the moment he couldn't understand what was going on and it looked like he was failing he went off the rails and destroyed the only hope they had in his rage, as the more sensible members of his party looked on, helplessly.
posted by Brainy at 1:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


I do think I don't want to see Trump doing his "routine." (Before tapes and after, in fact).
posted by Namlit at 1:36 PM on October 11, 2016


If Marco stands by Trump, it must means that Trump has something on him. That is all it means. Maybe he thinks he can absorb the veep spot if P-word drops away, but yeah. Not a high mark in Marco's career.
posted by Oyéah at 1:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


NY State Senate Candidate Decries Ad Depicting Him As Fiddler On The Roof
A Democratic candidate for state senate in New York who says he's been targeted with anti-Semitic ads on social media told TPM on Tuesday that he suspects senate Republicans are behind them.

The ad cites an editorial that ran in Newsday headlined "Don’t fiddle with New York’s property-tax cap" and includes an image of Adam Haber's face photoshopped onto the body of a character in "Fiddler on the Roof." Haber said that the ads have been spotted on Facebook and Instagram, and his campaign provided TPM with a screenshot.
posted by zachlipton at 1:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


The 2016 electoral map is rapidly slipping away from Donald Trump
According to the Fix's electoral vote tracker — an amazing tool that marries Real Clear Politics polling averages in swing states with the electoral map — if the election were held today, Hillary Clinton would win 341 electoral votes to Donald Trump's 197.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Namlit it's a talking Trump Zoltar machine someone plopped onto a sidewalk in NYC.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared.

[fake]
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


yeah and I took it and ran with it
posted by Namlit at 1:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


CIVIL. FUCKING. WAR.

Check out Mike Cernovich's howl of rage and betrayal that's circling the twitters. "If the GOP continues to sabotage Trump, we will begin spoiling the ballots of every Republican running for office this election" is particularly sweet, sweet music.

Now whether anything will come of this is another question. Making threats on Twitter is one thing. Ryan beat his primary opponent like a cheap rug. But hope does spring eternal.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Al Gore in FL: “Your vote really, really, really counts…consider me as an Exhibit A”

As much as the 2000 election has been the ultimate GOTV argument (until 2016), Gore stepped away from politics so quickly and completely I never contemplated him as the ultimate GOTV messenger, but he is.
posted by snofoam at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


John Noonan tweetstorm.

Sorry just a link to his twitter if I could log in I would storify it but I'm having trouble for some reason. He goes to town about the state of the GOP right now.

Sample:

35. Even though he’s in the process of destroying the party that welcomed him...


36. you can still say no.

37. Or you can stand in the temple with Orange Samson, as he pulls down the walls around you.

38. But you do not get to blame others for the rubble. You don't get to blame those who warned you since July 2015.
posted by Jalliah at 1:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Check out Mike Cernovich's howl of rage and betrayal that's circling the twitters.

HOW IS THIS GUY STILL EVEN A THING?!
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


"If the GOP continues to sabotage Drumpf, we will begin spoiling the ballots of every Republican running for office this election"

Go ahead, punk. Make my day.
posted by dnash at 1:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mike Huckabee tries to explain how Trump is Capt Quint from Jaws and Hillary is the Shark. Megyn Kelly reminds him what happened to Quint.

Oh MY! That was wonderful. She's a real fan of the movie, and it was for her a "Perfect Moment"
posted by mikelieman at 1:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Check out Mike Cernovich's howl of rage and betrayal that's circling the twitters.

"If those offices are closed or hostile to Trump, we will take the next steps."

The next goosesteps.

You know who else liked goosestepping? Sure, but besides him?

Yeah.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


So is this how Republicans feel, like all the time, watching us circular firing squad ourselves?
posted by zachlipton at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


Please forgive me if this has been posted before, I have 35 tabs open and I'm not sure where this link sprung up from.

In Supporting Trump, Conservative Men Abandon Conservative Women
You failed the ultimate test life throws at politicians and religious leaders: You made a choice to protect your power at the cost of the people, at the cost of women, and the future civility of our culture. The religious people mentioned above, and others like them, have undermined their own faith and cheapened their words. Moreover, they have misrepresented the Christian faith before a watching secular world.
Misrepresentation may have already sailed but the evangelical right should be absolutely fucking embarassed that they put the power to punish sluts above their own women and the culture that they have to live in every day.
posted by Talez at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


"If the GOP continues to sabotage Drumpf, we will begin spoiling the ballots of every Republican running for office this election"

A Democratically Controlled House would be like the best inaugural present for President Clinton ever.
posted by mikelieman at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Sorry to be still back on the Clinton Miami rally today, but does anyone else find it odd that she's using The Rising as her walk up music? Isn't it a song about fire-fighters dying in the WTC?
posted by anastasiav at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2016


Check out Mike Cernovich's howl of rage and betrayal that's circling the twitters.

"Cries about giving Congress to the Democrats means nothing to us. We have our own move planned for 2018 - Revolution 18." Revealing your plans in advance? I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


John Noonan tweetstorm.

Sorry just a link to his twitter if I could log in I would storify it but I'm having trouble for some reason. He goes to town about the state of the GOP right now.


His Twitter bio line is amazing: "Bourbon helps. Sell your bonds and pray for America."
posted by anastasiav at 1:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


In WHAT WORLD do you accomplish anything by convincing someone to heckle the candidate's husband at a rally? Anyone who would react with anything other than an eye-roll is already voting Trump. Who are you trying to sway?

This isn't about convincing Hilary voters to switch to Trump because she's somehow against women. It's about reassuring Trump voters that supporting him does not make them misogynistic because the other side is just as bad. It's the same strategy he uses with race.
posted by bibliowench at 1:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Springsteen's The Rising? ( after Ghost of Tom Joad ) ft. Tom Morello
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Talez, someone linked that upthread. The anger and betrayal in her writing is just volcanic--finally discovering that conservative women have been sold down the river, just like the progressive "enemy" has been telling them all along.

Who's going to volunteer to be the emissary from Crone Island to go bring them into the fold?
posted by Sublimity at 1:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


John Noonan tweetstorm.

Sorry just a link to his twitter if I could log in I would storify it but I'm having trouble for some reason. He goes to town about the state of the GOP right now.

Kyle Griffin storified it.
posted by Talez at 1:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Fave part of John Noonan tweetstorm: You can stand in the temple with Orange Samson, as he pulls down the walls around you. But you do not get to blame others for the rubble.

I am grateful for many things, and today it is the moniker ORANGE SAMSON.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 1:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


"I am a speech-language pathologist, and yes, I do sometimes work on helping people coordinate breathing with speech, so I know something about this. But that is not what is going on here. And no, it is not cocaine or allergies. Donald Trump is exhibiting a classic symptom of anxiety displayed in some individuals."

Never ever listen when a medical professional does this kind of long distance sniper diagnosing.

Because if they were any good at their job they wouldn't do this.
posted by srboisvert at 1:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


You can stand in the temple with Orange Samson, as he pulls down the walls around you. But you do not get to blame others for the rubble.


ORANGE SAMSON, that is EXCELLENT
posted by alleycat01 at 2:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Never ever listen when a medical professional does this kind of long distance sniper diagnosing.

the question isn't their absolute quality, but their relative quality compared to internet experts saying it's cocaine. that's a pretty low barrier.
posted by andrewcooke at 2:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


NEW ELECTION POST IS LIVE
posted by Wordshore at 2:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


"If I had my way... I would tear this whole buildin' down"
posted by Sublimity at 2:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hunh, I thought it was early for a new election post, but it checks out. Good work, Wordshore.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:07 PM on October 11, 2016


"If I had my way... I would tear this whole buildin' down"

"Don't lend your hand to raise no flag, atop no ship of fools...."
posted by mikelieman at 2:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here in Louisiana, they just announced that everyone will get a sticker when they vote that depicts a "Blue Dog" image by noted artist George Rodrigue.

I'm excited, because I love Rodrigue and I really love stickers, but I'm a little surprised they went in this direction, considering that it has more than a slight connection to Blue Dog Democrats.
posted by tryniti at 2:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is proposing a policy to tackle deep poverty

Analysts: Donald Trump’s new tax plan is even more tilted toward the rich than his old one
posted by homunculus at 2:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


The #NeverRyan thing is a dumb play because there's no way Ryan is losing the seat, sadly.

Not his seat, but maybe his gavel.... paging zachlipton
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tweetstorms are stupid.
But then Twitter is stupid.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


NEW ELECTION POST IS LIVE

WTF?! I've barely even started catching up on this one today. You shitmittens really are unstoppable, aren't you?
posted by homunculus at 2:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


Unstoppable Shitmittens shall be the name of my new anarchist folk-punk band!
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


WTF?! I've barely even started catching up on this one today.

Heh. We've finally outpaced homunculus.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Does anybody want his gavel? It was hard enough to get Ryan to take the job and that was less than a year ago. And look what's happened to him. Who would want the job? Even the power-hungry members of the GOP House are smart enough not to touch it, as they will suddenly be blamed for literally everything and be expected to hold the party together somehow.

There's only one person craven enough for the job: Ted Cruz has to resign from the Senate and get himself into the House somehow.

Or, ideally, the gavel goes to a certain other party...
posted by zachlipton at 2:28 PM on October 11, 2016


So what is the book that they are reading from in the Mormons for Hilary ad? (Thanks, argybarg, for linking.) Is it the Book of Mormon? Or one of Hilary's books?
posted by tuesdayschild at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tweetstorms are stupid.

Right?! It's like "let me write a short essay... then break it up... so someone else can reconstitute it later." ugh. just get a metafilter account already
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


So what is the book that they are reading from in the Mormons for Hillary ad?

It's the introduction to It Takes A Village. I know because I just finished reading it!
posted by stolyarova at 2:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I thought I was going to be able to make it through the election season without canceling my NPR business membership in a fit of pique but today's soft-pedal interview with Scott Adams on All Things Considered did me in.

Maybe I can use that extra money to send Katy Tur on a cruise to Bermuda when this is all over.
posted by sleepy psychonaut at 2:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Next post, for you Recently Active people.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


jfc they interviewed that manbaby whiner?
posted by stolyarova at 2:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm not saying Twitter is not a horrendous shitshow in many ways, but watching the GOP and Donald's campaign destroy each other in real time is the most glorious spectacle, and that's where it's happening.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


the winner could be known before November.

How could this possibly work? No matter how many early votes, wouldn't people still be able to show up on election day in mass to outvote them?
posted by corb at 2:37 PM on October 11, 2016


How could this possibly work? No matter how many early votes, wouldn't people still be able to show up on election day in mass to outvote them?

I'm not sure I have a full appreciation but if there are 100 registered voters and you have 51 early/absentee votes for candidate A, that's the ball game no matter who shows up on election day.
posted by Skorgu at 2:59 PM on October 11, 2016


I already think that whoever he is, he is wearing Donald Trump's face as a mask.
posted by Oyéah at 3:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


So between waiting for the ballot to come in the mail, filling it out and then taking it somewhere, maybe people just figure it's easier to go to the local library or whatever and early-vote.

Yup, this is exactly why I switched back to in-person voting for the general this year. I don't have a convenient outgoing mail solution at home, which means I need to make a special trip to the post office. So why not just enjoy the civic pride of going to the polling place on the day, if I'm going to have to run an errand anyhow?

I would 100% be in favor of in-person early voting in my state.
posted by Sara C. at 3:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Me, yesterday: I can't believe [Ryan] thinks that this weaselly "non-un-endorsement un-endorsement" will make him immune to blowback or the tender mercies of Trump and his vicious supporters. Let me know how that works out for you, Paul.

Gabriel Rosenberg ‏@gnrosenberg
Woah. Popular Rightwing blog, Ace of Spades HQ just endorsed Paul Ryan's Democratic opponent. GOP down-ballot apocalypse brewing.
Trump Declares, Basically, the Start of the #NeverRyan Movement

Psychic me strikes again! I am quitting my job and starting a fortune-telling hotline.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here, you can return your absentee ballot to a polling place or tents they setup in front of city hall, without getting off your bike if you want. I usually do that, since San Francisco ballots are incredibly long (we have 42 state and local ballot measures this time around) and it's easier to do it all in one go from home. Then I just drop it off, and they give me my sticker. It works pretty well.
posted by zachlipton at 3:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


LA Times: Gerrymandering helped Republicans take control of Congress, but now it's tearing them apart over Trump

A gerrymandering of congressional districts, completed six years ago, sought to secure a Republican House majority for years to come by packing Democratic voters into fewer, often urban and minority districts and giving Republican candidates comfortable majorities in the ones they control.

But those tailor-made districts yielded a new crop of hard-right, often uncompromising Republican members of Congress, running safely in mostly white, older and rural districts, where Trump’s support is strongest.

These conservative House members are increasingly at odds with Republican senators, party leadership and a handful of remaining House swing-district lawmakers, who are wringing their hands over Trump because they still must appeal to a broader swath of voters, including moderates, independents and minorities.
posted by polecat at 3:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm very liquid. So much liquidity.

a) this is awesome

and

2) underscores my belief that Trump speaks Doge
posted by biscotti at 3:13 PM on October 11, 2016


THERE IS A NEW ELECTION THREAD AND IT IS HERE AND IT IS FOUR THOUSAND COMMENTS SHORTER THAN THIS ONE SO IT IS MUCH QUICKER TO LOAD, READ AND COMMENT ON, GODAMMIT.
posted by Wordshore at 3:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


This happens at the transition of every thread, Wordshore. There's a tail of comments after the new thread has been posted multiple times. And why not? It's quieter here. It's an election thread without the chaos of being an election thread.
posted by miguelcervantes at 3:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's an election thread without the chaos of being an election thread.

What? Oh, no; you're not pulling that Schrödinger's Election Thread magic on me...
posted by Wordshore at 3:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


>>If the metaphor is Donald as Gandalf, then yes, he returns as the White

>Well what other color would he return as?

Orange, surely?

I mean, I know that Donnie is "orange" already. But it's sort of like Gandalf went from gray to white and, similarly, Trump will go from slight orange tint to full-on glowing pumpkin orange. Donald the Orange! One Pumpkin to rule them all! etc.
posted by flug at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016


I don't have a convenient outgoing mail solution at home...

Yeah, forget post offices, what the hell happened to mailboxes? They used to be on every odd corner, but now I can only think of one within about two miles of home.

Are they that high maintenance? Have we starved the USPS that much already?

Grumble grumble grumble.
posted by rokusan at 3:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would think he'd go to Hyperbolic Orange, a color not normally perceptible to humans.
posted by miguelcervantes at 3:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


CIVIL. FUCKING. WAR.

Donald is Tony Stark, Hillary is Cap, and Syrian refugees are Bucky?
posted by puddledork at 4:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was so excited to get to the end of the thread, only to discover there's a new one with hundreds of comments already.

The stamina!
posted by mochapickle at 4:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


You're a fighter, mochapickle; you don't quit! You have the temperament to tackle the new thread.
posted by miguelcervantes at 4:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


The headline in Canada: Trump is free of civility 'shackles' and Clinton talks climate change
posted by piyushnz at 5:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


As the thread is petering out, I just want to mention that it provoked me into finally going on Abebooks and ordering a copy of the out of print Alexei Sayle book Great Bus Journeys of the World, which includes the bit about taking people with unfeasible names like Ford Madox Ford and William Carlos Williams and rearranging them so they have normal names (like William Ford or Carlos Madox) with enough name left over for one completely new person. I've wanted a copy of the book since I read someone else's copy thirty years ago, but never quite got round to it. So, thank you, thread.
posted by Grangousier at 5:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Boutros Boutros-Ghali was unavailable for comment.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Operation Trump Truck Hijack Update before I go to the other thread:

I just read the terms/rules/regulations of the giveaway with a closer eye, and - people, it's a used truck. It is a used '87 pickup.

That is honestly giving me pause, because seriously, we're talking about a car that is nearly 30 years old.

Even the with the giveaway Trump is a cheap fucker.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


'87 is old enough that it's more of an antique or classic vehicle than a used one.
posted by octothorpe at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anti-Semitic dogwhistle

NY State Senate Candidate Decries Ad Depicting Him As Fiddler On The Roof
posted by kirkaracha at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


And why do they blow these whistles? I can tell you in one word - tradition!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Apparently Trump just told his crowd to "make sure you get out and vote November 28." I hope they do!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I thought Samson had hair...
posted by sexyrobot at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2016


Samson drew righteous strength from God in order to crush evil. Trump == Samson isn't the comparison I want to make, but personally I prefer not to cast myself as evil.
posted by fragmede at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


You can tell that Trump actually behaves the way he says he does on the tape because

Yesterday I saw someone on facebook say "Are you going to judge someone for what they SAY or what they DO?" And I said that if what someone says is "I rape people" then yes, I'm going to judge the hell out of them for it. And if people start coming forward and saying "that thing he said he did, well he totally did it" I'm going to be that much more likely to believe them.

Also I've officially reached the point of Give No Fucks on FB. I am just not letting people get away with bullshit "both sides are equally bad" stuff anymore.
posted by threeturtles at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


No wonder I caught up.. there's been a new thread for hours. Ugh.
posted by goHermGO at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


way late and probably no longer relevant...but regarding NotAllMen. In this context here it comes off as defensive and maybe a bit self-interested, but in a larger cultural context, on social media, it's kind of an antidote to the pack mentality that fuels misogyny and sexism. Toxic masculinity thrives on pack mentality and I think it's great for some guys to step out and assert a space that is not toxic and that the force of pack mentality against women is not necessarily an unstoppable one if enough guys speak up and challenge the power of numbers.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry to be still back on the Clinton Miami rally today, but does anyone else find it odd that she's using The Rising as her walk up music? Isn't it a song about fire-fighters dying in the WTC?

Sort of, but more so "Into the Fire." "The Rising" as a song draft predates 9/11, but wasn't completed until it found a home on the album of the same name. Originally, The Rising was about rallying for the resilience of the beat-down town of Asbury Park. But Springsteen repurposed the melody and refrain during the rebuilding and recovery period after 9/11. I think "The Rising" is a perfect song to rally a crowd to action. It's rousing and it's about the determination to do something difficult.
posted by Miko at 9:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I've discovered that I can either read each and every comment in each and every election thread (and all the links therein), or I can undertake basic functions like working, eating and sleeping. So I bailed on the last thread and skimmed most of this one. Anyway. I saw parts of the debate and was supremely disappointed in Clinton's performance. When that fly landed on her face she should have caught it in her eyelashes, Aeon Flux-style. Boo Hillary. Am disappoint. Off to the new thread!
posted by um at 10:21 PM on October 11, 2016


She should've killed that fly Obama style.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've been thinking about that snake analogy a bit, and if it's supposed to refer to refugees, I think it's completely screwed up. There ain't just one refugee who is a snake. There are thousands and, granted, among the thousands there are probably two or three snakes.

So a better analogy might be Noah's ark: Noah took in thousands of animals, even though he KNEW that there are two snakes among them.

Did Noah perform any extreme vetting for snakes? No.
Did he refuse the snakes on board or kick them out later? No.
Does the Bible teach that the ark should be sunk (or better even: nuked from orbit) and all the thousands of animals drowned because there are two snakes among them? Most clearly, no.
Rather, the teaching is that compassion should be extended to all animals, including the snakes.

And that's the old frigging testament. I think the new one is even clearer on that point.
posted by sour cream at 1:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I also think that might also have been a great question from the audience in the last debate: "Imagine your Biblical Noah. Would you have performed extreme vetting in order to keep snakes out of the ark?"
posted by sour cream at 1:29 AM on October 12, 2016


N-n-next Thread
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


> way late and probably no longer relevant...but regarding NotAllMen. In this context here it comes off as defensive and maybe a bit self-interested, but in a larger cultural context, on social media, it's kind of an antidote to the pack mentality that fuels misogyny and sexism. Toxic masculinity thrives on pack mentality and I think it's great for some guys to step out and assert a space that is not toxic and that the force of pack mentality against women is not necessarily an unstoppable one if enough guys speak up and challenge the power of numbers.

Right, but the way to do it is not "That's bullshit, I've been in lots of locker rooms and nobody talks like that" (which denies the problem and overrides women's objections) but "I will be on the alert for that kind of talk and object strongly if anybody uses it in my hearing."
posted by languagehat at 7:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


That Podesta risotto secret isn't a secret. It is literally how you make risotto.
That's like saying the secret to apple pie is remembering to put fruit in it.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


If the next Wikileaks release of emails contains Hillary's secret guacamole recipe, the MetaFilter server is going into meltdown, isn't it?
posted by Wordshore at 11:46 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


That's like saying the secret to apple pie is remembering to put fruit in it.

Yeah, but like what fruit? Huh? Not so smart now, are you?
posted by nubs at 11:55 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary's secret guacamole recipe

Which she has been hiding, natch. My favorite election thread derails are food derails. Even better that this is not the current thread.
posted by kingless at 11:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


That's like saying the secret to apple pie is remembering to put fruit in it

Hillary's secret guacamole recipe

Derail to note that I once almost bought Publix guacamole dip without noticing that the ingredients did NOT include avocado.

In other news, Conrad Black is on the National Post / Twitter defending Trump AND Nixon as super cool dudes with no evidence tying them to criminal wrongdoing. Dear horrible plutocrats of England/Canada: stay in your lanes.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:57 PM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dear horrible plutocrats of England/Canada: stay in your lanes.

My experience has shown that horrible plutocrats don't believe the lanes apply to them, regardless of country of origin or citizenship.
posted by nubs at 2:02 PM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


the way to do it is not "That's bullshit, I've been in lots of locker rooms and nobody talks like that" (which denies the problem and overrides women's objections) but "I will be on the alert for that kind of talk and object strongly if anybody uses it in my hearing."

My anecdotal experience: Some men (and some women) objectify women (and men, don't get me started on my gay friends and Lee Holden) with talk. Very very rarely does anyone *brag* about sexual assault. I am grasping to think of any time I can remember anyone I knew ever... nope.

The odd thing seems to be that if Trump weren't running for President, this tape would hurt his brand more than it does now. No? Is that how bad it's gotten? Confessions of sexual assault improve his image with the GOP base voters?

...

The "way to do it" is: 1) get enthusiastic consent for sex and promote consent; 2) deride anyone who doesn't take consent seriously.

I had an SFWAR sticker on my cane (long story) that read "I [heart] Consent" and my sister-in-law laughed at it, as if who could possibly be *against* consent? Well ...

Not all men, not all women, whatever. Do the right fucking thing. Act with compassion.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:28 PM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I voted TODAY!

And the joint was JUMPIN'! I actually had to wait in line to get to vote. It was AWESOME! There were several clutches of Clinton volunteers whooping and hollering and waving signs (outside the 100 foot "no electioneering" buffer zone), and people were wading right in to hug them. Passing cars honked and people yelled "WHOOOO!" and "FUCK YEAH!" out their windows.

It was exciting! Everyone was just so...joyful. And everyone I talked to was there because they just couldn't wait another moment to cast their vote. I wish I could have snagged a pic inside, but the poll workers pointed at the big "no cell phones" sign. Oh well.

Toledo is a Union town, so we're undoubtedly going to go hard for Madame President. Yeah, I said it! Our Early Voting Center is right in the central city, so the crowd was working folk, and they were all talking about Sec. Clinton afterwards.

Among those working folk, Younger Monster and a large number of his Libbey Glass co-workers, who struck at midnight last night. They know all too well what a Trump administration would mean for them, so they were out in force to vote, and encourage their fellows to do the same.
posted by MissySedai at 3:41 PM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


If Hillary's secret guacamole recipe has peas in it we're going to have a real problem.
posted by chrchr at 6:12 PM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is an extremely capable woman.
I would still pit my Election Anxiety-Soothing Guacamole against hers any day.
posted by Superplin at 10:15 PM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just got to this thread and I'm not leaving.
posted by bongo_x at 10:23 PM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wait, people have recipes for guacamole? It's avocados, a pinch of salt, and a squeeze of lemon or lime. Anything more than that is an abomination.


My father--a California native who grew up surrounded by literal avocado orchards--puts fucking mayonnaise in his. I'd disown him but I don't think it works in that direction.
posted by dersins at 10:24 PM on October 12, 2016


No garlic? We have a problem, pal.
posted by msalt at 11:22 PM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Some of us are big-tent people bent on discovering new vistas of deliciousness. Others are guacanazis. Can America heal this rift?
posted by middleclasstool at 6:31 AM on October 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we can draw a hard line around the peas thing though - that goes beyond adding little flavor notes and into ersatz guac.
posted by Artw at 7:03 AM on October 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Taking sides and expanding the controversy. Simplicity is good but so is garlic, especially roasted. And besides flavor, hot peppers add color and crunch to guacamole.
posted by kingless at 7:26 AM on October 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


At our poker game last week, one person brought hummus with avocado mixed in. So that's basically fusion guacamole. (It was pretty good.)
posted by msalt at 9:22 AM on October 13, 2016


Some of us are big-tent people bent on discovering new vistas of deliciousness. Others are guacanazis. Can America heal this rift?

You can put whatever you want together with avocados, just don't call it guacamole.

And maybe putting -nazi together with what was originally an Aztec dish isn't the best idea either.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:55 AM on October 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Guys, guys. We can disagree on many things reasonabAly, but: no cilantro in that guacamole? What mad world are we living in?
posted by corb at 10:38 AM on October 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


A world of flavor.
posted by tocts at 11:29 AM on October 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


A little madness in guacamole is good. Cilantro is good too but it's true that it doesn't appear in every batch that I make, partly because sometimes I don't have cilantro but I do have avocados and a yen for guacamole. Never made it from a recipe. Forced to name the essentials beyond avocado, I guess I'd say lime or lemon juice and creativity (to the point of madness (which some say (about my cooking))).
posted by kingless at 11:30 AM on October 13, 2016


And besides flavor, hot peppers add color and crunch to guacamole.

Oh please, that is what diced tomatoes and onions are for
posted by infini at 11:30 AM on October 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tomatoes and onions are good. Hot peppers are an important part of my diet so I add them often, even to fruit smoothies. Sweet and hot, yum!
posted by kingless at 12:21 PM on October 13, 2016


Cilantro and lime are what transform mashed avocado into guacamole, for me.

Onions and tomatoes are OK, but there are a lot of potential pitfalls there (onions not chopped fine or wrong kind used, mushy bad tomatoes). Salsa is a fine addition, but you really need significant heat to balance out the liquid-ey aspect it can bring. Also it better be the BEST quality salsa -- ideally fresh-made -- and a pico de gallo style, not that gloopy tomato saucey canned stuff.

My partner's secret ingredient is chipotle in adobo. I thought it was blasphemy at first, but the smoky/bright/creamy contrast is amazing.

Garlic strictly optional, and almost always something I'd add by way of fresh pico de gallo.
posted by Sara C. at 12:22 PM on October 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


In conclusion, salsas are a land of contrast.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 12:55 PM on October 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Salsa is also a dance of contrast.
posted by maxsparber at 1:34 PM on October 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


The new Election FPP is live.
posted by Wordshore at 11:33 AM on October 14, 2016


MeFi does the Al Smith dinner in 2008 and 2012. Because hey, you've made it to the end of this thread. For now.

Edit: how the heck did I make it over here.
posted by one_bean at 7:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


As a footnote - the Alexei Sayle book arrived and the bit goes like this:
NAMES - A SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

It has come to my notice that sometimes names are not shared out equally. For instance while Paul Simon has got two first names, Harrison Ford has got two second names.

While Jean-Paul Sartre, Hugh Trevor Roper and Lesley Anne Down have all got two first names and one second name, Nancy Banks-Smith, Sammy Davis Junior and Andrew Lloyd Webber have all got one first name and two second names.

Norman St John Stevas has got two first names and a second name and a St, Sting and Sade have only got one name each and Meryl Streep hasn't got anything that anybody in their right mind would call a name at all.

The law should immediately be changed so that everybody has two names each - one first name and one second name. Thus those with two first names will pool their names and those with two second names will share the results. Paul Simon will become Paul Harrison and Harrison Ford will become Simon Ford.

Jean-Paul Sartre will be known (on memorials etc.) as Paul Sartre, Lesley Anne Down as Anne Down, Hugh Trevor Roper as Trevor Roper, Nancy Banks-Smith as Nancy Smith, Sammy Davis Junior as Sammy Junior, Andrew Lloyd Webber as Andrew Webber and Norman St John Stevas as Norman Stevas. This will create a surplus of names from which names falling short of total requirements can be completed.

Thus Sting will take over the Jean left over from Paul Sartre and become Jean Sting; Sade can have the Banks left from Nancy Smith to become Sade Banks; and Meryl Streep can become Trevor Davis.

Also there will be a surplus of names sufficient to complete one complete new person, Lesley Lloyd, and a St John.

Thank you for your attention.
posted by Grangousier at 4:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


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