After the 2016 US election
November 10, 2016 2:33 AM Subscribe
The 2016 US election is over and most of the results are in. Barring incident, Barack Obama (#44) will hand over to Donald Trump (#45) at noon on January 20th 2017; transition activities are underway. Following a relentless campaign, Hillary Clinton conceded and called for unity. The Republican Party has also secured the Senate and the House of Representatives, as well as electing more governors. Voter suppression during the election continues to be an issue. Reaction to Trump's victory has ranged from protests to shock, and there are many questions about what he will do in office regarding issues such as Obamacare. Some are drawing parallels between the election result and Brexit. The press is also contemplating the future of the Democratic Party and their road ahead.
To mod-quote: Don't go after each other, don't poke known sore points. There is an election channel in Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for connecting with Adium, Monal, and Apple Messages. A longer list of Jabber-compatible clients.) Alternately...
Take it to MetaTalk
* Grief and Coping Thread: Election 2016.
* MeFites offering refuge for the holidays.
* US Election Day Roundup.
* It's a big snowball - political sub-site discussion.
* SEZ WHO? Election Prediction 2016.
* Get Yer Voting Stories Here!
For legacy content, see posts tagged with election2016. Recent election posts include Election Night II: Load Balancing Boogaloo, Of the people, by the people, and for the people: US election day, and Senators, Representatives, and Referenda.
There are also many recent election-related threads in Ask MetaFilter.
Other resources
* Ballotpedia has a mass of election resources.
* The election thread reference wiki explains some of the terminology used in comments on these threads.
* Some links of distraction and comfort by Deoridhe, I need a good laugh, badly by azpenguin and Desperate for distractions - tumblr, twitter, and metafilter are out by tzikeh.
To mod-quote: Don't go after each other, don't poke known sore points. There is an election channel in Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for connecting with Adium, Monal, and Apple Messages. A longer list of Jabber-compatible clients.) Alternately...
Take it to MetaTalk
* Grief and Coping Thread: Election 2016.
* MeFites offering refuge for the holidays.
* US Election Day Roundup.
* It's a big snowball - political sub-site discussion.
* SEZ WHO? Election Prediction 2016.
* Get Yer Voting Stories Here!
For legacy content, see posts tagged with election2016. Recent election posts include Election Night II: Load Balancing Boogaloo, Of the people, by the people, and for the people: US election day, and Senators, Representatives, and Referenda.
There are also many recent election-related threads in Ask MetaFilter.
Other resources
* Ballotpedia has a mass of election resources.
* The election thread reference wiki explains some of the terminology used in comments on these threads.
* Some links of distraction and comfort by Deoridhe, I need a good laugh, badly by azpenguin and Desperate for distractions - tumblr, twitter, and metafilter are out by tzikeh.
Speaking from the Netherlands:
WTF AMERICA !!!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 2:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
WTF AMERICA !!!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 2:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
the elitists lost - so did the common people; they just don't know it yet
of course, the way the system is gerrymandered with the electoral college, it's hard to say who really "won"
but i just don't have a lot to say about it - i'm disgusted with the whole mess right now
posted by pyramid termite at 2:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
of course, the way the system is gerrymandered with the electoral college, it's hard to say who really "won"
but i just don't have a lot to say about it - i'm disgusted with the whole mess right now
posted by pyramid termite at 2:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I remember Reagan. There were times when every day brought a fresh new horror show of ignorance, incompetence and lies. The next year will be like that.
Brace yourselves.
posted by mediareport at 2:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [96 favorites]
Brace yourselves.
posted by mediareport at 2:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [96 favorites]
I never could have imagined that twice in 16 years I'd see a Democratic presidential candidate win the popular vote and lose the election. Gore then and Clinton now have appealed to the tradition in our democracy of the good loser who hands over the reins of power in good faith. But Trump represents the culmination of everything the Republican Party has become since 1994. There's not one glimmer of respect for political norms in Donald Trump's eyes, and he now leads a party which had already pledged itself to a policy of total obstruction when it thought it was going to lose the presidency. Donald Trump will take every hand offered in conciliation and spit in it.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 2:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [138 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 2:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [138 favorites]
Thank you, Wordshore, for your continuing work on these threads. As well as the mods, of course.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [80 favorites]
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [80 favorites]
After the amazing emotional rollercoaster of the campaign and vote, it feels like things are over now, but at the same time, there are so many immense threads yet to fully unravel that I think that we're really in an interlude before we transition back into a period of a fresh outrage every few weeks. I also don't have a whole lot to say about it at this point. We've reached a new nadir.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm deep in the application process for disability and Medicaid. Here's hoping I can get the process finished before January. My very life is on the line.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [64 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [64 favorites]
The markets seems to be welcoming Trump - the Dow Jones came within about 25 points of its all-time intraday high of 18,668.44
posted by xdvesper at 2:51 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by xdvesper at 2:51 AM on November 10, 2016
Hopefully the Clintons will go away forever now (SPOILER ALERT: They won't)
posted by Optamystic at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
the elitists lost - so did the common people; they just don't know it yet
I agree with the latter point, of course, but I'll give NPR some credit for pointing out that although "anti-establishment" was supposed to be the election's theme, Republicans sure did re-elect a lot of incumbent Senators.
posted by Gelatin at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
I agree with the latter point, of course, but I'll give NPR some credit for pointing out that although "anti-establishment" was supposed to be the election's theme, Republicans sure did re-elect a lot of incumbent Senators.
posted by Gelatin at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
The thought that terrifies me is this -- a year of bumbling, unpopular Trump, followed by a terrorist attack anywhere near the scale of 9-11.
We saw what happened last time. He'll be unstoppable.
posted by ELF Radio at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
We saw what happened last time. He'll be unstoppable.
posted by ELF Radio at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
Back in the UK: "D'Oh!" and "What Have They Done?"
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:52 AM on November 10, 2016
of course, the way the system is gerrymandered with the electoral college, it's hard to say who really "won"
It's quite a thing to watch this aspect of the story being buried in real time. I'm afraid of a Trump presidency and what it means for the country, but ultimately most of America rejected Trumpism. This probably won't wind up mattering, because the Republicans are ruthless and limiting your agenda to work with a divided country is apparently something we don't expect of them, but shame on the media for not pushing back on that.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 2:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
It's quite a thing to watch this aspect of the story being buried in real time. I'm afraid of a Trump presidency and what it means for the country, but ultimately most of America rejected Trumpism. This probably won't wind up mattering, because the Republicans are ruthless and limiting your agenda to work with a divided country is apparently something we don't expect of them, but shame on the media for not pushing back on that.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 2:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
I hope Obama fires James Comey this week for his partisan interference in the election. At this point, what does he have to lose?
posted by Gelatin at 2:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [93 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 2:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [93 favorites]
Via Deadspin, Stan Van Gundy, coach on the Detroit Pistons We've just thrown a good part of our population under the bus.
I'm having a hard time with people. I'm going to walk out into this arena tonight (the team played in Phoenix) and realize that - especially in this state - most of these people voted for that guy.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
I'm having a hard time with people. I'm going to walk out into this arena tonight (the team played in Phoenix) and realize that - especially in this state - most of these people voted for that guy.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
Actually opposing bad policies and legislation by Trump or fascists emboldened by him will fall on organizations like the ACLU and EFF, so support them. And aclu.org already has "See You in Court" next to a photo of Trump. :)
Just some informative links :
NPR : Here is what Donald Trump wants to do in his first 100 days
Intercept : Democrats, Trump, and the Ongoing, Dangerous Refusal to Learn the Lesson of Brexit
We learned that Clinton's campaign told their media friends to give Trump more media attention during the Republican primary, called their Pied Piper strategy, thereby improving his chances to be the Republican nominee.
We've heard rumors that Obama will squander some of his remaining time in office pushing the awful TPP treaty.
Also, there were incorrect early reports of final vote tallies, but ultimately Clinton underperformed Obama by 2.5 million votes (4%), while Trump only outperformed Romney by 300k votes (0.5%).
And 9% of registered Democrats voted for Trump. And
posted by jeffburdges at 2:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
Just some informative links :
NPR : Here is what Donald Trump wants to do in his first 100 days
Intercept : Democrats, Trump, and the Ongoing, Dangerous Refusal to Learn the Lesson of Brexit
We learned that Clinton's campaign told their media friends to give Trump more media attention during the Republican primary, called their Pied Piper strategy, thereby improving his chances to be the Republican nominee.
We've heard rumors that Obama will squander some of his remaining time in office pushing the awful TPP treaty.
Also, there were incorrect early reports of final vote tallies, but ultimately Clinton underperformed Obama by 2.5 million votes (4%), while Trump only outperformed Romney by 300k votes (0.5%).
And 9% of registered Democrats voted for Trump. And
posted by jeffburdges at 2:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
I have a few 'Likudnik' FB acquaintances who are pretty happy with Trump winning.
Not sure how happy they will be when Putin really goes ahead and pounds Syrian cities into the ground and dumps even more brand new Russian weapons into Hezbollah's hands and whoops whaddya know Lebanon is up in flames again and 19 year old Israeli soldiers are dying in the Golan.
posted by PenDevil at 3:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Not sure how happy they will be when Putin really goes ahead and pounds Syrian cities into the ground and dumps even more brand new Russian weapons into Hezbollah's hands and whoops whaddya know Lebanon is up in flames again and 19 year old Israeli soldiers are dying in the Golan.
posted by PenDevil at 3:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I basically lost the whole of yesterday to the "refresh" button, in a way I really haven't since 12 September 2001. The potential cabinet picks look utterly horrendous. I would say I'm "terrified," but a kind of paralysed affectlessness is a luxury those of us on the left simply don't have any more. We need to organise, bury our sectarian differences, and fight this global reactionary movement together.
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [51 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [51 favorites]
America survived eight years of W. It, and the world, were far worse off for him, but it survived. It'll also survive four years of Trump, though it will be further diminished. I can only hope that the triple forces of demographics, mild apocalypse, and stupid policy having bad results allow something better to be built after 2021.
Most of my friends here are way more concerned about the damage America will do during its continued slow-motion collapse than anything that Trump does to America itself. More concerning is that with America in the hands of an elected (legitimately, if not with plurality) demagogue, there seems to be no counterbalance to the protofascist wave sweeping over the Western world and its borderlands. A center-right America under split government could be an effective counterbalance to Putin and Erdogan on the world stage. A wildcard narcissist president who may or may not play ball with a right-wing legislature, but who is in a public bromance with at least one of them, will not.
There is something badly broken with the post-cold-war world order. It is in the process of remaking itself into something more nationalist, more anti-intellectual, more belligerent, and less bound by the rule of law. That, more than Trumpist incompetence, Trumpist racism (let's face it, we all know racism remains America's original sin), sheer Trumpist small-handed orangeness, is the scary part of his ascendence.
posted by Vetinari at 3:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [88 favorites]
Most of my friends here are way more concerned about the damage America will do during its continued slow-motion collapse than anything that Trump does to America itself. More concerning is that with America in the hands of an elected (legitimately, if not with plurality) demagogue, there seems to be no counterbalance to the protofascist wave sweeping over the Western world and its borderlands. A center-right America under split government could be an effective counterbalance to Putin and Erdogan on the world stage. A wildcard narcissist president who may or may not play ball with a right-wing legislature, but who is in a public bromance with at least one of them, will not.
There is something badly broken with the post-cold-war world order. It is in the process of remaking itself into something more nationalist, more anti-intellectual, more belligerent, and less bound by the rule of law. That, more than Trumpist incompetence, Trumpist racism (let's face it, we all know racism remains America's original sin), sheer Trumpist small-handed orangeness, is the scary part of his ascendence.
posted by Vetinari at 3:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [88 favorites]
i think the republicans are going to make the unpleasant discovery that they're not unified enough to accomplish much, nor do they have a clear idea of what to do besides destroy what has been built by others because "they did it" - the more moderate republicans will reach out to the democrats, who, i hope, will tell them "you have a majority - govern without us"
it's time for the democrats to do as the republicans have done
it's my belief that we're going to have a long shutdown of the government at some point, perhaps even this year - we could even see default
in the rest of the world things are going to go to hell in a major way - ww iii will be upon us and it won't be the all out nuclear exchange we thought it would be - instead it will be an asian war
and trump? - i have no idea what he's going to do
the worst part is, neither does he
posted by pyramid termite at 3:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
it's time for the democrats to do as the republicans have done
it's my belief that we're going to have a long shutdown of the government at some point, perhaps even this year - we could even see default
in the rest of the world things are going to go to hell in a major way - ww iii will be upon us and it won't be the all out nuclear exchange we thought it would be - instead it will be an asian war
and trump? - i have no idea what he's going to do
the worst part is, neither does he
posted by pyramid termite at 3:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Eight short years after an economic collapse and free fall nearly ending in a full blown economic depression and uh, uh, uhmmm, let me have another heaping plate full of that, only magnified by the venality of the Trump machine. Nice going! Here's a nice summation of what to expect. This is an unmitigated catastrophe, read unmitigated as not subject to amelioration. The United States as we knew it is gone. What will emerge is a nightmare I think no one would have believed possible.
posted by WinstonJulia at 3:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by WinstonJulia at 3:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
by the way, i just read that first 100 days of trump link and his statement
i stand by my statement - he does not have any idea what he's going to DO, but he sure as hell won't do this - congress won't let him
posted by pyramid termite at 3:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
i stand by my statement - he does not have any idea what he's going to DO, but he sure as hell won't do this - congress won't let him
posted by pyramid termite at 3:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
After the 2016 US election ...
Foreign minister Julie Bishop stood up in the Australian parliament with her Cranky Face on and scolded the opposition leader for calling the US president-elect "barking mad" a few weeks ago.
posted by valetta at 3:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Foreign minister Julie Bishop stood up in the Australian parliament with her Cranky Face on and scolded the opposition leader for calling the US president-elect "barking mad" a few weeks ago.
posted by valetta at 3:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
We've Got a Bigger Problem Now, redux
Last call for alcohol
Last call for your freedom of speech
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid
And a jigger of formaldehyde
From the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you
I am Emperor Donald Trump
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president
Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're not Muslim too
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
Shab shabba, shabba doo-wa
Shab shabba, shabba doo-wa, yeah!
Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
Pussy grabbin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face
You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Andrew Breitbart is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
Yeah, that's it. Just relax
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG
Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV
Lock your doors. Close your mind
It's time for the two-minute warning
Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece
You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws
Die on our brand new poison gas
Aleppo or Afghanistan
Making money for President Trump
Making money for President Trump
And all the friends of President Trump
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
posted by kewb at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
Last call for alcohol
Last call for your freedom of speech
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid
And a jigger of formaldehyde
From the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you
I am Emperor Donald Trump
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president
Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're not Muslim too
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
Shab shabba, shabba doo-wa
Shab shabba, shabba doo-wa, yeah!
Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
Pussy grabbin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face
You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Andrew Breitbart is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
Yeah, that's it. Just relax
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG
Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV
Lock your doors. Close your mind
It's time for the two-minute warning
Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece
You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws
Die on our brand new poison gas
Aleppo or Afghanistan
Making money for President Trump
Making money for President Trump
And all the friends of President Trump
Coal country über alles
Coal country über alles
Über alles coal country
Über alles coal country
posted by kewb at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
The future is dead. Or at least the future that was meant to be a steady march of progress, a procession of minor wonders. The high-water mark was reached some time between 1960 and 2001; it has steadily slid since 9/11 and the Long Siege. It looked like turning around in the Obama years, but the rise of the Age of Strongmen, Brexit and now Trump, has turned the steady decline into a crumbling. The actual future will be authoritarianism, fascism and war, followed by ecological catastrophe.
One side effect of this is that does wonders for eliminating the fear of death. I used to think that it would suck to die, knowing that one wouldn't get to see what happens next. Now, not so much.
posted by acb at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
One side effect of this is that does wonders for eliminating the fear of death. I used to think that it would suck to die, knowing that one wouldn't get to see what happens next. Now, not so much.
posted by acb at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Detroit Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy's
full rant is worth reading:
What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that...
Thanks, Ghidora. It's great to see outspoken bravery in the mainstream right now.
posted by mediareport at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [158 favorites]
full rant is worth reading:
What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that...
Thanks, Ghidora. It's great to see outspoken bravery in the mainstream right now.
posted by mediareport at 3:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [158 favorites]
Apart from all the explicitly terrible ideas, the things that will tear families apart and cost people life saving health care, Trump's proposed "eliminate two regulations for every new one" idea is the one that scares me simply because it betrays no understanding of how federal regulations work. I have no idea how it would work in practice, and I can't imagine anyone who works with the CFR regularly would. It's ignorant and totally ungrounded in reality.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
In other news: Sherriff Joe Arpaio is in the running for Secretary of Homeland Security.
posted by acb at 3:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by acb at 3:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Democrats, Trump, and the Ongoing, Dangerous Refusal to Learn the Lesson of Brexit
Eh... I think that Brexit narrative of insular establishment elites ignoring the problems of the people is certainly a lesson of Brexit, but it's a) not the only one and b) not an entire lesson in itself. Brexit wasn't a grassroots uprising - its presentation as a popular revolt against the elite was a marketing campaign, driven largely by figures just as elite and establishment as the ones they were excoriating. That they recognised and tapped into real discontent isn't the only story here.
Another possibly-relevant Lesson Of Brexit is the success of low-information campaigning on detailed, complex matters. Leaving the EU is a massive, labyrinthine task with factors affecting so many different parts of life in the UK - our legal system, our trade system, our education system, on and on and on - that was marketed as something as straightforward as cancelling Netflix. Appealing-sounding promises (the infamous £350m/week extra for the NHS) weren't part of any manifesto, weren't put into any policy framework, weren't costed out, and so didn't have to be feasible and could be immediately backed away from when the Leave campaign won - which is what happened. Vote Leave's official 'plan' for leaving the EU was a few paragraphs long. And that, again, was part of a deliberate marketing strategy.
I have been thinking about this a lot, and especially in the wake of the Trump victory, because it's just counterintuitive to me that a total lack of information could go down so well with people. I get why it's appealing to the people trying to sell us their campaigns, but why the hell are we as voters lapping this up?
Here is where I am up to with that so far: It's not that people don't want knowledge. (I mean, some people don't, but not all of us in general.) It's that people already feel like they don't have it, when it comes to big, complex systems affecting us, big societal/global issues and how our governments handle them. Decline of the manufacturing industries, how to defeat ISIS, how to handle a global refugee crisis, how to tackle climate change, what caused the 2008 crash, what to do about healthcare systems, what to do about taxation. All of it. People feel shut out, cut off, out of control, disenfranchised. And if you are in power or trying to get into power (be that power political, media, whatever) there are three ways you can go with that:
1 - "You don't know how the world around you works, and that's fine." Lack of knowledge is the system working as it should. Decisions should be made by people more qualified to make them than you - because they're more educated, more experienced, more wealthy, more part-of-the-inner-circle, whatever. You get to vote for your government once every few years, and in the meantime, go and sit over there and we'll get on with running the country. If you want you can check in regularly while we give you a very basic summary of what's happening and tell you what to think about it. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're wrong, but whatever. This is above your pay grade.
2.- "You don't know how the world around you works, and that's not fine." Nobody has the time or inclination to become an expert in everything, okay, but democracy only works if the population is informed and has a voice that gets heard, and that's how it should be. We will make sure you get more of that - by giving you a more accurate picture of what's going on, by letting you know how you can be part of these conversations, by making policy with you rather than to you. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're wrong, and here is the detail about why - about the pressures affecting the NHS, and about the societal and economic effects of immigration. The politicians and media telling you otherwise are lying to you.
3. - "You do know how the world around you works." Those people telling you that you don't are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Everyone knows what's really going on, but you aren't allowed to say it because it's non-PC. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're right. The experts telling you otherwise are just part of the elite, out to preserve the status quo.
Approach 1) has no future. Nobody is openly going to advocate that any more. The future of politics is going to be battling it out between approaches 2) and 3). And I think the best weapon in that battle is going to be pointing out that approach 3), however grassroots and authentic and outspoken and common-sense it's claiming to be, is actually approach 1) in disguise.
posted by Catseye at 3:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [134 favorites]
Eh... I think that Brexit narrative of insular establishment elites ignoring the problems of the people is certainly a lesson of Brexit, but it's a) not the only one and b) not an entire lesson in itself. Brexit wasn't a grassroots uprising - its presentation as a popular revolt against the elite was a marketing campaign, driven largely by figures just as elite and establishment as the ones they were excoriating. That they recognised and tapped into real discontent isn't the only story here.
Another possibly-relevant Lesson Of Brexit is the success of low-information campaigning on detailed, complex matters. Leaving the EU is a massive, labyrinthine task with factors affecting so many different parts of life in the UK - our legal system, our trade system, our education system, on and on and on - that was marketed as something as straightforward as cancelling Netflix. Appealing-sounding promises (the infamous £350m/week extra for the NHS) weren't part of any manifesto, weren't put into any policy framework, weren't costed out, and so didn't have to be feasible and could be immediately backed away from when the Leave campaign won - which is what happened. Vote Leave's official 'plan' for leaving the EU was a few paragraphs long. And that, again, was part of a deliberate marketing strategy.
I have been thinking about this a lot, and especially in the wake of the Trump victory, because it's just counterintuitive to me that a total lack of information could go down so well with people. I get why it's appealing to the people trying to sell us their campaigns, but why the hell are we as voters lapping this up?
Here is where I am up to with that so far: It's not that people don't want knowledge. (I mean, some people don't, but not all of us in general.) It's that people already feel like they don't have it, when it comes to big, complex systems affecting us, big societal/global issues and how our governments handle them. Decline of the manufacturing industries, how to defeat ISIS, how to handle a global refugee crisis, how to tackle climate change, what caused the 2008 crash, what to do about healthcare systems, what to do about taxation. All of it. People feel shut out, cut off, out of control, disenfranchised. And if you are in power or trying to get into power (be that power political, media, whatever) there are three ways you can go with that:
1 - "You don't know how the world around you works, and that's fine." Lack of knowledge is the system working as it should. Decisions should be made by people more qualified to make them than you - because they're more educated, more experienced, more wealthy, more part-of-the-inner-circle, whatever. You get to vote for your government once every few years, and in the meantime, go and sit over there and we'll get on with running the country. If you want you can check in regularly while we give you a very basic summary of what's happening and tell you what to think about it. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're wrong, but whatever. This is above your pay grade.
2.- "You don't know how the world around you works, and that's not fine." Nobody has the time or inclination to become an expert in everything, okay, but democracy only works if the population is informed and has a voice that gets heard, and that's how it should be. We will make sure you get more of that - by giving you a more accurate picture of what's going on, by letting you know how you can be part of these conversations, by making policy with you rather than to you. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're wrong, and here is the detail about why - about the pressures affecting the NHS, and about the societal and economic effects of immigration. The politicians and media telling you otherwise are lying to you.
3. - "You do know how the world around you works." Those people telling you that you don't are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Everyone knows what's really going on, but you aren't allowed to say it because it's non-PC. So, you feel like immigration into the UK is destroying the NHS? You're right. The experts telling you otherwise are just part of the elite, out to preserve the status quo.
Approach 1) has no future. Nobody is openly going to advocate that any more. The future of politics is going to be battling it out between approaches 2) and 3). And I think the best weapon in that battle is going to be pointing out that approach 3), however grassroots and authentic and outspoken and common-sense it's claiming to be, is actually approach 1) in disguise.
posted by Catseye at 3:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [134 favorites]
@ShaunKing: Woke up to hundreds and hundreds of gut-wrenching emails of ways people suffered hate and were assaulted by Trump supporters yesterday.
White folks and other people with privilege and safety: please, please do everything you can to call this out if and when you see it. De-escalate it, help the person being attacked to get somewhere safe. Contact a local Anti-Violence Project if your city or town has one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
White folks and other people with privilege and safety: please, please do everything you can to call this out if and when you see it. De-escalate it, help the person being attacked to get somewhere safe. Contact a local Anti-Violence Project if your city or town has one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
I just want to say that it breaks my heart that the front page of Ask has been covered in questions from scared people not knowing what to do anymore. Should I buy a house now? Should I get married? What's going to happen to my healthcare? What are they going to do to end marriage equality?
People shouldn't have to be THIS scared, but this is what we've come to.
posted by Aznable at 3:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [67 favorites]
People shouldn't have to be THIS scared, but this is what we've come to.
posted by Aznable at 3:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [67 favorites]
of course the real answer is -
4.- "you don't know how the world works and neither do the people who are running it"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
4.- "you don't know how the world works and neither do the people who are running it"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
Hopefully the Clintons will go away forever now
Hopefully the winner of the popular vote will keep her spirits high, stay connected, and support the opposition's struggle the next four years. This is "all hands on deck" time.
I don't want her to run for president again. We can't take that chance. But I do want the Clintons, Obamas, Bidens, and Kaines to do whatever they can to empower the resistance. We can't afford to lose anyone in our coalition.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [207 favorites]
Hopefully the winner of the popular vote will keep her spirits high, stay connected, and support the opposition's struggle the next four years. This is "all hands on deck" time.
I don't want her to run for president again. We can't take that chance. But I do want the Clintons, Obamas, Bidens, and Kaines to do whatever they can to empower the resistance. We can't afford to lose anyone in our coalition.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [207 favorites]
Fear and the resulting paralysis and dependency it generates are powerful means of social control. We can't fall into the trap of letting our anxiety control our lives, as that's essentially a form of political surrender.
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
A house three blocks away from where I used to live in Noe Valley/Dolores Heights is now waving a Nazi flag in their front yard.
And now I'm going to watch the clips of The West Wing from the AskMe thread.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
And now I'm going to watch the clips of The West Wing from the AskMe thread.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Catseye: If you haven't watched any Adam Curtis documentaries, you might appreciate them.
posted by Leon at 3:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Leon at 3:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I keep seeing analyses that make it about rural America versus the liberal cities, yes. Thing is, this does not track with what we're seeing on the ground (where "we" are friends and I, would be interested to hear others). What we're seeing is evangelicals voting for the apocalypse, which has long been something fundy evangelical churches tell their congregations to do (lived experience here). Rural America voting Republican, yes, that's totally understandable even if incredibly unfortunate, they have indeed been abandoned... although it was mainly by Republicans. They don't know it and that's not entirely their fault, that would be squarely on the media and also on a lot of churches' unwillingness to question their Republican support. I grew up in rural America, you have to make a strong effort and be willing to lose your entire support network in order to see through the discourse. I wholly understand people who do not want to take those risks. Again: understanding it does not mean supporting it. But it does help identify ways to improve it. Media letting drop this elites vs. rural thing would be a good start. As if there aren't elites in boondocks! Anyone who's grown up in the countryside knows there are rich farmers and ranchers who behave like dicks, rich ones who behave responsibly, and so on and so forth. The rural versus city discourse has to stop, it creates its own dichotomy and is itself a form of ignorance.
What we're also seeing is privileged white people voting for the privileged white dude. So many well-off white families voted Trump. Including in cities. Racism; white supremacy absolutely was a motivator for many. Also thinly-veiled misogyny as motivation. And a lot of it not veiled at all.
I do hope we all remember to look out for one another. Don't be blinded by preconceived ideas. We're all human. Anyone who says otherwise, speak out for our shared humanity.
posted by fraula at 3:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [62 favorites]
What we're also seeing is privileged white people voting for the privileged white dude. So many well-off white families voted Trump. Including in cities. Racism; white supremacy absolutely was a motivator for many. Also thinly-veiled misogyny as motivation. And a lot of it not veiled at all.
I do hope we all remember to look out for one another. Don't be blinded by preconceived ideas. We're all human. Anyone who says otherwise, speak out for our shared humanity.
posted by fraula at 3:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [62 favorites]
I tell my foreign friends that more Americans voted for Hillary. Trump only won because of a system leftover from the days of slavery.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
As if the time we sent you Piers Morgan wasnt bad enough, apparently Nigel Farage is angling for a job in America as Ambassador. Soz about that.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wish I could agree with Vetinari above that "America survived eight years of W. It, and the world, were far worse off for him, but it survived. It'll also survive four years of Trump, though it will be further diminished." Sadly, Trump will appoint two if not three Supreme Court Justice and no, the country will not survive forty years of that.
With control of the Presidency, the House, the Senate and the Supreme Court Republicans will finally fulfill their long dreamed of wish list of the last eighty -->EIGHTY --> years and undo the New Deal and all the "socialism" that goes with it. The hated Roosevelt innovations that dragged the United States into the modern era and saved the Untied States, ironically, capitalism itself, and the world by winning World War II will be swept away. I dare say, with control of all those branches of government, "the checks and balances" of power has been rendered moot. These zealots are all on the same page. This is an unprecedented moment in our history. The radical transformation of the United States will be staggering.
posted by WinstonJulia at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
With control of the Presidency, the House, the Senate and the Supreme Court Republicans will finally fulfill their long dreamed of wish list of the last eighty -->EIGHTY --> years and undo the New Deal and all the "socialism" that goes with it. The hated Roosevelt innovations that dragged the United States into the modern era and saved the Untied States, ironically, capitalism itself, and the world by winning World War II will be swept away. I dare say, with control of all those branches of government, "the checks and balances" of power has been rendered moot. These zealots are all on the same page. This is an unprecedented moment in our history. The radical transformation of the United States will be staggering.
posted by WinstonJulia at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
What part of #nevertrump did people not understand?
posted by cynicalidealist at 3:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cynicalidealist at 3:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I tell my foreign friends that more Americans voted for Hillary. Trump only won because of a system leftover from the days of slavery.
Even if he hadn't won it would still be terrifyingly large portion of America that voted Trump.
posted by Dysk at 3:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
Even if he hadn't won it would still be terrifyingly large portion of America that voted Trump.
posted by Dysk at 3:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I don't like this season of Orange is the New Black.
posted by adept256 at 3:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 3:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
My partner and I were talking about this at dinner (it's hard to talk about anything else, though we're trying). Given that the standard Republican narrative is to displace and transfer blame and consequences for anything that goes wrong, I had the thought that the Democrats need to hammer home the idea, repeatedly, constantly, that the Republicans are in charge and anything that happens is on them.
Both obstruction and working across the aisle are losing propositions for the Democrats. The only way forward I can see for them is abstinence and messaging.
Every time there's a vote, every democrat shows up, and abstains. Every time there's debate about a vote, they each get up and say "this is horrible, but the consequences are on you. Go ahead if you think this is good for America."
Alternately, they could get up during debates and just read the litany of all the horrible things Trump has done or said.
Obviously this isn't a perfect idea; if they actually have the votes to prevent horrible laws from being passed, they should do so, but if not, active non-participation and consistent messaging will get the point home with the average American (and the press) better than being Republican-obstructionist.
IMO :)
posted by Kelrichen at 3:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
Both obstruction and working across the aisle are losing propositions for the Democrats. The only way forward I can see for them is abstinence and messaging.
Every time there's a vote, every democrat shows up, and abstains. Every time there's debate about a vote, they each get up and say "this is horrible, but the consequences are on you. Go ahead if you think this is good for America."
Alternately, they could get up during debates and just read the litany of all the horrible things Trump has done or said.
Obviously this isn't a perfect idea; if they actually have the votes to prevent horrible laws from being passed, they should do so, but if not, active non-participation and consistent messaging will get the point home with the average American (and the press) better than being Republican-obstructionist.
IMO :)
posted by Kelrichen at 3:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
So a bunch of rubes who believe in the literal Biblical Apocalypse just got conned into voting for a guy who will probably cause it? The Aristocrats!
posted by Optamystic at 3:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 3:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
“The truth is, there are not two kinds of people. There’s only one: the kind that loves to divide up into gangs who hate each other’s guts. Both conservatives and liberals agree among themselves, on their respective message boards, in uncannily identical language, that their opponents lack any self-awareness or empathy, the ability to see the other side of an argument or to laugh at themselves. Which would seem to suggest that they’re both correct.”
― Tim Kreider, We Learn Nothing
posted by cynicalidealist at 3:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
― Tim Kreider, We Learn Nothing
posted by cynicalidealist at 3:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
www.nationalpopularvote.com - the campaign to abolish the Electoral College.
It won't be quick, and it won't be easy since it requires an amendment signed by the states (and quite a few states benefit from the current broken system). But now that a split has happened twice in recent memory we need to consider whether it will keep happening and continue privileging some votes over others, and to me that is unacceptable. One person, one vote. We've got to start somewhere and maybe now is the time.
(If anyone has other organizations that are fighting for the same thing, feel free to suggest them)
posted by Tehhund at 3:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
It won't be quick, and it won't be easy since it requires an amendment signed by the states (and quite a few states benefit from the current broken system). But now that a split has happened twice in recent memory we need to consider whether it will keep happening and continue privileging some votes over others, and to me that is unacceptable. One person, one vote. We've got to start somewhere and maybe now is the time.
(If anyone has other organizations that are fighting for the same thing, feel free to suggest them)
posted by Tehhund at 3:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
I just wrote a letter to Director Comey of the FBI because I don't know what else to do and I am unbelievably angry at the fact that his reprehensible actions have have increased the suffering in the world almost unimaginably. The general theme of the letter is "may God forgive you because I won't" although I might have misspelled "opprobrium". I am so fucking angry at so many people. If you helped create this world I will never, ever forgive you.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [82 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [82 favorites]
Or as @dril put it:
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
posted by threetwentytwo at 4:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
posted by threetwentytwo at 4:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
What part of #nevertrump did people not understand?
I'm worried that a lot of nevertrumpers will find "reasons" to jump back on the wagon. Also I'm still in shock about the FBI misuse of power. I'm worried some nevertrumpers will be bullied or threatened into place.
For instance, there are hundreds, if not thousands of nevertrumpers within the military and intelligence. Would they not come to the patriotic conclusion that someone needs to defend the US from dangers? The same with economy. The idea of leaving it to the crazies is as scary as working for/with Trump.
posted by mumimor at 4:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm worried that a lot of nevertrumpers will find "reasons" to jump back on the wagon. Also I'm still in shock about the FBI misuse of power. I'm worried some nevertrumpers will be bullied or threatened into place.
For instance, there are hundreds, if not thousands of nevertrumpers within the military and intelligence. Would they not come to the patriotic conclusion that someone needs to defend the US from dangers? The same with economy. The idea of leaving it to the crazies is as scary as working for/with Trump.
posted by mumimor at 4:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
No, Optamystic. Look at the demographics. 51%-45% of college educated white women. 54% to 39% of college educated white men. White people - educated white people - are just as culpable as those uneducated rubes we're so happy to mock.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 4:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
I think the thing that bothers me most is that for six years, the Republicans have basically acted like children, holding their breath and stomping their feet and laying down wailing in the toy store aisle to try to get what they want.
And then we gave them what they wanted.
posted by OHSnap at 4:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [77 favorites]
And then we gave them what they wanted.
posted by OHSnap at 4:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [77 favorites]
To clarify, 51 and 54% voted for Trump, 54 and 39% for Clinton.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 4:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
So for everyone saying "the future is dead" or similar, well, uh, okay, cool, but some of us have kids or, you know, just care about humanity going forward and that answer isn't really acceptable. I mean yes this is unbelievably horrible and many people will suffer tremendously but it isn't literally the end of history (I mean unless there's a nuclear holocaust which I recognize is not off the table here). Odds are good that there will still be people living here and they'll be trying to carve out lives for themselves and their families as best they can so while I recognize that these statements, in one sense, aren't hyperbole, I feel like sinking into despair is a refusal to recognize that there will still be people around who need our help. Yes, everything is fucking terrible, but acting like humanity has just ended is a betrayal of people who are suffering now and future generations who will actually have to live in the future you claim doesn't exist.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [114 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [114 favorites]
That said, I totally understand the despairing/nihilistic impulses, I really do, but people need us.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
trump's policies towards climate change may actually signal the end of humanity, so, I don't think people who think and feel that way are quite unjustified to think and feel the way they do...
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
So we're just going to give up completely on even the possibility of helping future generations?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
xdvesper: The markets seems to be welcoming Trump - the Dow Jones came within about 25 points of its all-time intraday high of 18,668.44
Fueled by the stocks of prison companies and weapons manufacturers.
posted by bluecore at 4:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fueled by the stocks of prison companies and weapons manufacturers.
posted by bluecore at 4:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I can't think of many times in history when a worse person has had more power than Trump is about to.
This whole thing has the warped logic of a nightmare. Nothing makes sense but everything is menacing. Yesterday I was crying and vomiting; today I'm just bone-tired and numb.
I checked out of the election thread early the other day, so maybe everyone's been through the "hopeless bawling" stage already and progressed to "snap into action" mode. If so, I applaud you. We need that, and we need you, and I'll be with you in a minute.
But right now, I am still just obliterated by this.
So many people are going to die.
posted by Rumpled at 4:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
This whole thing has the warped logic of a nightmare. Nothing makes sense but everything is menacing. Yesterday I was crying and vomiting; today I'm just bone-tired and numb.
I checked out of the election thread early the other day, so maybe everyone's been through the "hopeless bawling" stage already and progressed to "snap into action" mode. If so, I applaud you. We need that, and we need you, and I'll be with you in a minute.
But right now, I am still just obliterated by this.
So many people are going to die.
posted by Rumpled at 4:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
I've just been so incredibly fucking sad the past 36 hours, I don't know what to do or how to act. Just really raw grief and depression is affecting my general mood and my performance at work and my interactions with friends or family. The country has elected someone who normalizes and validates so many sick things that I thought we were all starting to agree was bad and wrong and false.
Like I felt so confident deep down that, despite the bumps we encounter, we were moving in the right direction. Every other month in this country it seems like we all have to deal with some big, sad, exhausting news event together - a shooting, a nationalized rape case, some kind of awful bathroom bill, for instance - but we were unifying, and public opinion was swaying, and we were clumsily figuring it out even if just incrementally. The idea that this piece of shit is going to stand up and address this stuff (or maybe just stay silent, who even knows) instead of Barack Obama and instead of Hillary Clinton. It's nauseating to think about.
I was so damn excited to move into an era where elected officials in the highest office actually understood or were at least starting to understand what things like systemic racism or systems of poverty or rape culture or feminist issues actually were. Even if they were part of "the establishment", they knew those words! It was such a net positive! And I was so confident that we were moving in the right direction. And now everything feels upside down and opposite. Like we are about to welcome an era of white people saying "I mean I don't like Trump either but I kinda agree with what he was sayin ya know?" Like we've welcomed an era of empowered hate groups, empowered casual racists, empowered rapists, empowered "poor=lazy" privileged frat dude assholes, empowered Blue Lives Matter bullshit.
Just every single wrong thing has now been empowered when it was supposed to be the other way around. It was supposed to be the other way around. It's so hard to go out into the world and go to work and pretend like nothing is happening when everything feels like it's all about to go deeper and deeper into the opposite direction. And so this nauseating pit in my stomach just persists, and the headache you get from holding back tears lingers all day, and I don't know what to do.
posted by windbox at 4:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [117 favorites]
Like I felt so confident deep down that, despite the bumps we encounter, we were moving in the right direction. Every other month in this country it seems like we all have to deal with some big, sad, exhausting news event together - a shooting, a nationalized rape case, some kind of awful bathroom bill, for instance - but we were unifying, and public opinion was swaying, and we were clumsily figuring it out even if just incrementally. The idea that this piece of shit is going to stand up and address this stuff (or maybe just stay silent, who even knows) instead of Barack Obama and instead of Hillary Clinton. It's nauseating to think about.
I was so damn excited to move into an era where elected officials in the highest office actually understood or were at least starting to understand what things like systemic racism or systems of poverty or rape culture or feminist issues actually were. Even if they were part of "the establishment", they knew those words! It was such a net positive! And I was so confident that we were moving in the right direction. And now everything feels upside down and opposite. Like we are about to welcome an era of white people saying "I mean I don't like Trump either but I kinda agree with what he was sayin ya know?" Like we've welcomed an era of empowered hate groups, empowered casual racists, empowered rapists, empowered "poor=lazy" privileged frat dude assholes, empowered Blue Lives Matter bullshit.
Just every single wrong thing has now been empowered when it was supposed to be the other way around. It was supposed to be the other way around. It's so hard to go out into the world and go to work and pretend like nothing is happening when everything feels like it's all about to go deeper and deeper into the opposite direction. And so this nauseating pit in my stomach just persists, and the headache you get from holding back tears lingers all day, and I don't know what to do.
posted by windbox at 4:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [117 favorites]
Calgary film producer Chris Ball is coming back from America’s presidential election with five staples holding together the gash on top of his head. Ball spent the evening in a Santa Monica, Calif. bar watching poll results come in. As the election progressed, he said attitudes in the bar became more and more heated – on both sides of the campaign. “People started launching homophobic slurs at me from afar,” he said. “I mean, I kind of got into it, but I didn’t want to provoke them.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
So we're just going to give up completely on even the possibility of helping future generations?No, not at all; but it's very hard not to feel immensely helpless right now. There are way too many things that trump's policies will absolutely devastate and I don't have an inkling right now as to how I'll be able to deal with any of the stuff that affects me on a personal level, let alone the big world-ending stuff.
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
This week Donald Trump was elected president and I discovered I almost certainly have Multiple Sclerosis.
Both of these were total surprises.
I am truly unsure which is the worse news.
Fortunately I live in a country with a halfway-sane medical system.
My heart and love go out to every single person who is going to be hurt by this bizarre election.
posted by Combat Wombat at 4:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [89 favorites]
Both of these were total surprises.
I am truly unsure which is the worse news.
Fortunately I live in a country with a halfway-sane medical system.
My heart and love go out to every single person who is going to be hurt by this bizarre election.
posted by Combat Wombat at 4:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [89 favorites]
I had some disappointing conversations with my coworkers yesterday. I really try and avoid talking politics around the office. Especially, yesterday, but they kept bringing it up.
All four are all straight white males.
One voted for Hillary. Because he thought the Trump would wreck the economy.
One voted for Johnson. He thought both Hillary and Trump were equally corrupt and immoral.
Two voted for Trump. One is a religious conservative. We never talk politics but at least I understand where he's coming from because I grew around a lot of religious conservatives.
The other coworker who Trump voted was the more educational. All of Trump sexual behaviors were argued as being no worse than Bill Clinton's behavior in the 90s. Hillary was complicit because she, in his option, ruthless attacked women who accused Bill.
The key thing I realized later in the day was no one had mentioned Trump's race baiting and demonization of minorities and immigrants. When I bought this up they nodded their heads and said that was bad. One coworker even talked about all the really bad racist things his FB friends were posting.
Here was the my key takeaway. They do not consider race relations a priority. It is really low on the list of things they think about. If you bring it up. They will nod their heads and say the right things but it does not have any serious emotional impact on them. It is not a major part of their calculations when deciding on a candidate.
If the Democratic party wants to trim away enough white voters from the Republicans to win. The party needs to be very careful about painting in a broad brush the other side as racists. My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them.
I needed to write this down somewhere to help process my anger and not burn any bridges at work.
Thanks Metafilter.
posted by KaizenSoze at 4:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [166 favorites]
All four are all straight white males.
One voted for Hillary. Because he thought the Trump would wreck the economy.
One voted for Johnson. He thought both Hillary and Trump were equally corrupt and immoral.
Two voted for Trump. One is a religious conservative. We never talk politics but at least I understand where he's coming from because I grew around a lot of religious conservatives.
The other coworker who Trump voted was the more educational. All of Trump sexual behaviors were argued as being no worse than Bill Clinton's behavior in the 90s. Hillary was complicit because she, in his option, ruthless attacked women who accused Bill.
The key thing I realized later in the day was no one had mentioned Trump's race baiting and demonization of minorities and immigrants. When I bought this up they nodded their heads and said that was bad. One coworker even talked about all the really bad racist things his FB friends were posting.
Here was the my key takeaway. They do not consider race relations a priority. It is really low on the list of things they think about. If you bring it up. They will nod their heads and say the right things but it does not have any serious emotional impact on them. It is not a major part of their calculations when deciding on a candidate.
If the Democratic party wants to trim away enough white voters from the Republicans to win. The party needs to be very careful about painting in a broad brush the other side as racists. My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them.
I needed to write this down somewhere to help process my anger and not burn any bridges at work.
Thanks Metafilter.
posted by KaizenSoze at 4:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [166 favorites]
It might be the lessons of Brexit, or if might be the lessons of Rob Ford or even Boaty McBoatface. Even the "lessons of Brexit" probably don't even meet the narrative spun for them.
posted by Artw at 4:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump only won because of a system leftover from the days of slavery.
Our electoral system is a really hard problem, but it's still easier to solve than racism.
posted by box at 4:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Our electoral system is a really hard problem, but it's still easier to solve than racism.
posted by box at 4:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
*Transcript of petebest's confection speech, Nov 10, 2016*
Fellow MeatFilters, . . . It's been a long, . . long 19 month year. And it's over. So there's that.
I would like to thank Wordshore and ChurchHatesTucker in addition to the various MittenCortexes among us for valiantly propelling us through the election with information-rich posts and careful bonsai-threadtending. Without you, we'd be less, probably by a lot. Thank you for excellent, considered work.
Thank you to the canvassers for the field reports that gave us all so much to enjoy about what was otherwise the ugliest campaign season in modern history. Your dedication both to the GOTV effort and your excellent commenting skeelz are much favorited and you are the stars of our combined narrative.
A special thank you to those of you who have shared personal insights that are normally not shared in fast-moving, snark-infested threads such as these. Thank you for communicating bravely - that is the way to do it, and you've shown everyone how many times. Thank you.
We will move forward, twirling towards freedom, in these and other threads Thank You MetaFilter.
Please consider kicking a few bucks towards the site if you haven't already. It's not tax-deductible, but it is more delicious than pizza.
May the quidnunc be with you, and may the quidnunc be with these United States of America!
*waves*
*Prince's "Pop Life" plays*
posted by petebest at 4:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
Fellow MeatFilters, . . . It's been a long, . . long 19 month year. And it's over. So there's that.
I would like to thank Wordshore and ChurchHatesTucker in addition to the various MittenCortexes among us for valiantly propelling us through the election with information-rich posts and careful bonsai-threadtending. Without you, we'd be less, probably by a lot. Thank you for excellent, considered work.
Thank you to the canvassers for the field reports that gave us all so much to enjoy about what was otherwise the ugliest campaign season in modern history. Your dedication both to the GOTV effort and your excellent commenting skeelz are much favorited and you are the stars of our combined narrative.
A special thank you to those of you who have shared personal insights that are normally not shared in fast-moving, snark-infested threads such as these. Thank you for communicating bravely - that is the way to do it, and you've shown everyone how many times. Thank you.
We will move forward, twirling towards freedom, in these and other threads Thank You MetaFilter.
Please consider kicking a few bucks towards the site if you haven't already. It's not tax-deductible, but it is more delicious than pizza.
May the quidnunc be with you, and may the quidnunc be with these United States of America!
*waves*
*Prince's "Pop Life" plays*
posted by petebest at 4:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
I'm really worried for the Baltic nations, for Israel and for Iran. I'm also deeply worried for South Korea, not least because they are in the middle of their own melt-down. Ukraine is lost. In all these countries, I'm afraid many people will loose their lives because of of what happened yesterday.
I'm worried for the rest of the West, because now, with both the US and the UK checked off, the far right is seeing opportunity, the middle is paralyzed, and the left are not going to be strong enough to resist the reactionary revolutions. As in the US, the racism will flourish, and the weakest members of society will loose whatever limited protection they had. There will be a rise in political islam as a reaction to that racism.
I'm worried for the climate. Millions of people from all over the globe will loose their homes and livelihood because of it, and become unwanted refugees. And its not "only" third world nations. Look at the droughts in the American West and in Australia.
Species of plants and animals will die out. And maybe some of them, it could be the bees, will take us with them. We really don't know.
I'm worried for my children, for the children in my family and for the young people I teach. Their futures look incredibly bleak. I don't know how to advise them or support them. This was the main reason I kept on crying yesterday and just typing this makes the tears well up again.
In the end, demographics will win - but the death throes of white supremacy are going to be a terrible spectacle, and that end is at least 20 years off. I hope enough people will come to their senses before that. In a few days I'll probably figure out how I can contribute to making that change, but right now I think it is OK to admit grief and fear.
The night before the election, a friend told me he had become a member of the social democratic party here. Not to support what they are doing now, panicking over the far right and accepting market economy, but to turn the tide and make them stand proud for their original ideals. That is one thing to do - In the US that would be to go in and influence the Democrats, not become a socialist.
posted by mumimor at 4:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm worried for the rest of the West, because now, with both the US and the UK checked off, the far right is seeing opportunity, the middle is paralyzed, and the left are not going to be strong enough to resist the reactionary revolutions. As in the US, the racism will flourish, and the weakest members of society will loose whatever limited protection they had. There will be a rise in political islam as a reaction to that racism.
I'm worried for the climate. Millions of people from all over the globe will loose their homes and livelihood because of it, and become unwanted refugees. And its not "only" third world nations. Look at the droughts in the American West and in Australia.
Species of plants and animals will die out. And maybe some of them, it could be the bees, will take us with them. We really don't know.
I'm worried for my children, for the children in my family and for the young people I teach. Their futures look incredibly bleak. I don't know how to advise them or support them. This was the main reason I kept on crying yesterday and just typing this makes the tears well up again.
In the end, demographics will win - but the death throes of white supremacy are going to be a terrible spectacle, and that end is at least 20 years off. I hope enough people will come to their senses before that. In a few days I'll probably figure out how I can contribute to making that change, but right now I think it is OK to admit grief and fear.
The night before the election, a friend told me he had become a member of the social democratic party here. Not to support what they are doing now, panicking over the far right and accepting market economy, but to turn the tide and make them stand proud for their original ideals. That is one thing to do - In the US that would be to go in and influence the Democrats, not become a socialist.
posted by mumimor at 4:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
A house three blocks away from where I used to live in Noe Valley/Dolores Heights is now waving a Nazi flag in their front yard.
I live about ten minutes down the highway from Elwood, Indiana, the "traditional" home of the Klan in the state. I keep waiting for semi-regular sights of sheets and hoods in broad daylight (it does happen here occasionally folks.)
posted by Thorzdad at 4:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I live about ten minutes down the highway from Elwood, Indiana, the "traditional" home of the Klan in the state. I keep waiting for semi-regular sights of sheets and hoods in broad daylight (it does happen here occasionally folks.)
posted by Thorzdad at 4:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here is the letter I wrote to Director Comey:
Part one
Part two
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Part one
Part two
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 4:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Apathy to overt racism is racism. Your co-workers are racist, just quietly and comfortably racist in a system designed to make that easy for them.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [214 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [214 favorites]
[National popular vote] won't be quick, and it won't be easy since it requires an amendment signed by the states
That proposal -- the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact -- is designed not to require an amendment. The idea is that the Constitution just says that a state chooses its electors and doesn't say how. It would be constitution for a legislature to simply select them directly, and indeed this happened sometimes in the first few elections. It would be constitutional to seat electors by lottery, or through gladiatorial combat.
And it would also be constitutional for a state to choose the slate of electors pledged to support whoever won the national popular vote instead of the slate pledged to support the winner of the statewide popular vote. I wouldn't be super hopeful about this. In the end, it would require large states that were either already swing-ish states (Ohio, Florida) and safe Republican states (Texas) to sign on, and given that the bias in our current electoral system is entirely against Democrats... OTOH, maybe you could make "Hey, if y'all in Ohio pass this, you'll only get a normal amount of election ads and polls instead of being swamped by them!" a selling point.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
That proposal -- the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact -- is designed not to require an amendment. The idea is that the Constitution just says that a state chooses its electors and doesn't say how. It would be constitution for a legislature to simply select them directly, and indeed this happened sometimes in the first few elections. It would be constitutional to seat electors by lottery, or through gladiatorial combat.
And it would also be constitutional for a state to choose the slate of electors pledged to support whoever won the national popular vote instead of the slate pledged to support the winner of the statewide popular vote. I wouldn't be super hopeful about this. In the end, it would require large states that were either already swing-ish states (Ohio, Florida) and safe Republican states (Texas) to sign on, and given that the bias in our current electoral system is entirely against Democrats... OTOH, maybe you could make "Hey, if y'all in Ohio pass this, you'll only get a normal amount of election ads and polls instead of being swamped by them!" a selling point.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
I am having a hard time imagining any response to even failure to rebuke Trump with anything other than unhinging my serpent jaw, leaning in close, and screaming "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!" until the skin flakes off of their idiot faces.
A co-worker of mine, sweet guy, basically imagine if GOOGLE RON PAUL was given human shape and a friendly-accountant sort of personality, tried to talk with me about the election. We had been regularly discussing some of the topics, and over the years I've often tried to pressure him more toward the left (he's the socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative breed) with my cunning arguments. Usually all very friendly. I ended up being very curt with him because I was clenching my jaw to keep from screaming obscenities across the center because I'm pretty sure he voted for Johnson or left it blank.
posted by Scattercat at 4:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
A co-worker of mine, sweet guy, basically imagine if GOOGLE RON PAUL was given human shape and a friendly-accountant sort of personality, tried to talk with me about the election. We had been regularly discussing some of the topics, and over the years I've often tried to pressure him more toward the left (he's the socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative breed) with my cunning arguments. Usually all very friendly. I ended up being very curt with him because I was clenching my jaw to keep from screaming obscenities across the center because I'm pretty sure he voted for Johnson or left it blank.
posted by Scattercat at 4:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
More than 80% of white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. These are people who've spent the last forty years fantasizing about being brave resistance fighters against the Antichrist. And when an authoritarian cult arose around a charismatic leader who's literally the opposite of Jesus, they couldn't bend the knee to him fast enough.
posted by EarBucket at 4:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [250 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 4:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [250 favorites]
My best friend wrote his own name in.
In FLORIDA.
I don't know what the hell to do with him.
posted by Mooski at 4:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
In FLORIDA.
I don't know what the hell to do with him.
posted by Mooski at 4:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
Apathy to overt racism is racism. Your co-workers are racist, just quietly and comfortably racist in a system designed to make that easy for them.
I'm not condoning their attitude I'm trying to figure out how to get them to change their votes.
If something racist happened right in front of them. They would be shocked, anger, and I'm sure they would say or do something. But they are so insulated from the day to day reality of racism that they do not think it is that important.
Calling them racists or passive racists will do nothing to change their vote. If anything it will cause them to vote for the other side out anger.
posted by KaizenSoze at 4:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
Well, I've lost the 5 lbs of stress eating weight I gained during the election via evacuating out all orifices Tuesday night and being mostly unable to eat anything since then.
I exist in a pretty extreme liberal bubble. Co-workers were universally hollow eyed at work yesterday. Hugs were exchanged. My boss thanked me for canvassing and I nearly burst into tears. My mother and sister in law are group texting me anti-Trump memes. My Facebook is despondent. My husband was crying when I got home from work last night. No one knows what to do.
I'm just so filled with a bone deep rage. I have no forgiveness available. This failure rests at the feet of the people who voted for and enabled this monster and no one else.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [65 favorites]
I exist in a pretty extreme liberal bubble. Co-workers were universally hollow eyed at work yesterday. Hugs were exchanged. My boss thanked me for canvassing and I nearly burst into tears. My mother and sister in law are group texting me anti-Trump memes. My Facebook is despondent. My husband was crying when I got home from work last night. No one knows what to do.
I'm just so filled with a bone deep rage. I have no forgiveness available. This failure rests at the feet of the people who voted for and enabled this monster and no one else.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [65 favorites]
My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them.
No, your co-workers are in fact racist. When you're offered a chance to get something you want by throwing minorities to the wolves, and you take it because hey, no skin off my nose, that's racism. That's evil. It's low-key evil distinct from actively advocating slavery or painting swastikas on walls, but it's more than mere "apathy" to racial issues.
What we have to work with is the fact that that kind of racism never went away in America, and for many (a majority of?) people it never stopped being socially acceptable. And changing it in the short term, if ever, isn't going to happen.
That's part of why I kept hoping the Clinton campaign would go harder on Trump as a con artist rather than a racist and sexist -- because that message boils down to "if you elect him, the cost to our society will be too high," and too many people don't care about the costs others have to pay. They'd care if they knew Trump wasn't actually going to give them what they want.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [163 favorites]
No, your co-workers are in fact racist. When you're offered a chance to get something you want by throwing minorities to the wolves, and you take it because hey, no skin off my nose, that's racism. That's evil. It's low-key evil distinct from actively advocating slavery or painting swastikas on walls, but it's more than mere "apathy" to racial issues.
What we have to work with is the fact that that kind of racism never went away in America, and for many (a majority of?) people it never stopped being socially acceptable. And changing it in the short term, if ever, isn't going to happen.
That's part of why I kept hoping the Clinton campaign would go harder on Trump as a con artist rather than a racist and sexist -- because that message boils down to "if you elect him, the cost to our society will be too high," and too many people don't care about the costs others have to pay. They'd care if they knew Trump wasn't actually going to give them what they want.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [163 favorites]
Hopefully the Clintons will go away forever now (SPOILER ALERT: They won't)
I think it's really cool how a woman can get shat on and slandered by a misogynistic press and public for decades of her life, keep going despite it, get within a handsbreadth of a historic feminist milestone, and then get shat on for failing to reach it because of how public perception was shaped by aforementioned misogyny.
It is super, super cool to see those who never supported her from the start and did their best to undermine her blame her loss entirely on her, as if she had the power to shape the social and media forces arranged against her success.
oh wait, no it's not
posted by Anonymous at 4:50 AM on November 10, 2016
I think it's really cool how a woman can get shat on and slandered by a misogynistic press and public for decades of her life, keep going despite it, get within a handsbreadth of a historic feminist milestone, and then get shat on for failing to reach it because of how public perception was shaped by aforementioned misogyny.
It is super, super cool to see those who never supported her from the start and did their best to undermine her blame her loss entirely on her, as if she had the power to shape the social and media forces arranged against her success.
oh wait, no it's not
posted by Anonymous at 4:50 AM on November 10, 2016
Over in the other thread I was talking about how grim it was at work (I work at the International Rescue Committee, and in the past I've held that close to the vest out of some "social media responsibility" gesture but I'm going to be more open about that). We are almost certainly going to lose a shit-ton of funding because of this. I even had a little meltdown in my boss' office about "am I going to have a job still???" and she managed to talk me off the ledge (I work in HR, and she pointed out that "no matter what, we will still be hiring and firing people and giving them raises, and if they cut any of us who actually process all of that they're screwed"). And the hell of it is, the funding that gets cut because of "stopping the refugee resettlement" ignores the entirety of the IRC's work - we don't just resettle people in the US, we also have schools in Pakistan and hospitals in Liberia and shelters in Kosovo and job retraining programs in Kinshassa and Amman and...and cutting our funding affects all of that.
I leave it to y'all to connect the dots between the lack of job programs and the appeal of ISIS to a young guy in Amman who's got no other options.
Our CEO had a group huddle yesterday to talk about the election. It was a pep talk, and I mentioned in the other thread that I spoke up and shared the news that a couple Mefites had already memailed me to ask how they could help "so, yeah, people still care and want to help us". (There was a muffled cheer from the group who'd come down from fundraising.) But at the start of the session, the CEO said something really eloquent about what we must be feeling, that helped - if you're hurting right now, if you're despondent and in mourning, then...honor that. It is a sign that you care deeply about this country, and that you have high ideals and that those ideals are also things you care deeply about. You wouldn't hurt if you didn't care. So stick to your ideals and live by them.
And that's actually combining in my head with Garrison Keillor's reaction to the Trump win. His response may come across as cynical - it sounds like a sort of shrugging "Okay, the Republicans have the Congress and the presidency now; maybe we'll just let 'em have it for a while." It's not coming across to me as giving up - it's coming across to me as a "give 'em enough rope" kind of thing. Democrats need to make sure that whatever happens now, the Republicans own it all. Democrats can, and should, fight for the dispossessed and stand up against injustices, but other than that..."Democrats can spend couple years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses." And...I kind of like that, that kind of "Hmm. Okay, you think you can do this all on your own? Okay, let's let you try, then." And then sitting back and watching as they fuck things up and the population turns against them too because of their fucking up.
MInd you, in his piece, Garrison said that the Democrats should sit back for four years. That is the only point at which I disagree - I say we only give it two years. 2018 is a chance to reshuffle the legislature, don't forget.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
I leave it to y'all to connect the dots between the lack of job programs and the appeal of ISIS to a young guy in Amman who's got no other options.
Our CEO had a group huddle yesterday to talk about the election. It was a pep talk, and I mentioned in the other thread that I spoke up and shared the news that a couple Mefites had already memailed me to ask how they could help "so, yeah, people still care and want to help us". (There was a muffled cheer from the group who'd come down from fundraising.) But at the start of the session, the CEO said something really eloquent about what we must be feeling, that helped - if you're hurting right now, if you're despondent and in mourning, then...honor that. It is a sign that you care deeply about this country, and that you have high ideals and that those ideals are also things you care deeply about. You wouldn't hurt if you didn't care. So stick to your ideals and live by them.
And that's actually combining in my head with Garrison Keillor's reaction to the Trump win. His response may come across as cynical - it sounds like a sort of shrugging "Okay, the Republicans have the Congress and the presidency now; maybe we'll just let 'em have it for a while." It's not coming across to me as giving up - it's coming across to me as a "give 'em enough rope" kind of thing. Democrats need to make sure that whatever happens now, the Republicans own it all. Democrats can, and should, fight for the dispossessed and stand up against injustices, but other than that..."Democrats can spend couple years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses." And...I kind of like that, that kind of "Hmm. Okay, you think you can do this all on your own? Okay, let's let you try, then." And then sitting back and watching as they fuck things up and the population turns against them too because of their fucking up.
MInd you, in his piece, Garrison said that the Democrats should sit back for four years. That is the only point at which I disagree - I say we only give it two years. 2018 is a chance to reshuffle the legislature, don't forget.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
I think the Hillary Clinton that said “My dream is a hemispheric common market" does need to go away forever now, optamystic, latex, etc. If otoh the Hillary Clinton who briefly mentioned clean energy there in the same breath wished to focus on that, or various other important projects she mentioned, then I'll applaud her doing so.
There is also the "open boarders" part of that quote that Trump seized upon. I think neo-liberals like Clinton have won some ground on that front though, even if only in the form of HB11 visas, but damaged the overall case for "open boarders" by associating it with destructive trade policies. I'd suggest laying off increases to the yearly number of immigrants or asylum seekers for a generation or so, while instead focusing on defending existing immigrants rights, like untying them from the restrictions of HB-1s. And primarily focusing on higher priority stuff like climate change.
Climate change may be escalating so fast it could be 'game over', scientists warn
posted by jeffburdges at 4:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is also the "open boarders" part of that quote that Trump seized upon. I think neo-liberals like Clinton have won some ground on that front though, even if only in the form of HB11 visas, but damaged the overall case for "open boarders" by associating it with destructive trade policies. I'd suggest laying off increases to the yearly number of immigrants or asylum seekers for a generation or so, while instead focusing on defending existing immigrants rights, like untying them from the restrictions of HB-1s. And primarily focusing on higher priority stuff like climate change.
Climate change may be escalating so fast it could be 'game over', scientists warn
posted by jeffburdges at 4:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
We liberal elitists are now completely in the clear. The government is in Republican hands. Let them deal with him. Democrats can spend four years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses.
I've been listening to A Prairie Home Companion for as long as I can remember, so I don't say this lightly: Fuck Garrison Keillor. "I'm a rich white guy, I'll be fine, LOL"
posted by EarBucket at 4:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [74 favorites]
I've been listening to A Prairie Home Companion for as long as I can remember, so I don't say this lightly: Fuck Garrison Keillor. "I'm a rich white guy, I'll be fine, LOL"
posted by EarBucket at 4:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [74 favorites]
as if she had the power to shape the social and media forces arranged against her success.
If she was helpless to shape the social and media forces arranged against her, she should have recognized that before she decided to run for President, and not run for President.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
If she was helpless to shape the social and media forces arranged against her, she should have recognized that before she decided to run for President, and not run for President.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Democrats need to make sure that whatever happens now, the Republicans own it all. Democrats can, and should, fight for the dispossessed and stand up against injustices, but other than that..."Democrats can spend couple years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses."
And when the Republicans' schemes collapse under the weight of their internal contradictions, guess who'll be the scapegoats who Stabbed America In The Back? That's right: the decadent artisan-beer-tasting liberal traitors in our midst.
posted by acb at 4:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
And when the Republicans' schemes collapse under the weight of their internal contradictions, guess who'll be the scapegoats who Stabbed America In The Back? That's right: the decadent artisan-beer-tasting liberal traitors in our midst.
posted by acb at 4:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
For the people behind this coming authoritarian regime, the goal now is to turn the country into one giant prison excercise yard.
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can we morph #HappyFunSeptember into #HappyFunNextFourYears?
posted by noneuclidean at 4:54 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by noneuclidean at 4:54 AM on November 10, 2016
A few quick things:
- Stop Making Sense is on YouTube
- I was recently invited to play at an event related to A Day Without Art, a reaction to the AIDS crisis from the Boston art scene. I was planning on performing a set of 80s punk songs. I've also (coincidentally) been reading a lot about the AIDS crisis in NYC in the early 80s. I keep seeing parallels between those stories and today and I'm scared to death.
- I plan on continuing to busk in the Boston subways, and I'm learning a set of Clash songs for the duration of my "tour" of the subways. I will also start wearing a white rose somewhere on my person as a tribute to Sophie Scholl, the anti-Nazi artist and resistance fighter. It's not much (and I will be doing activist work in addition to busking, because DUH), but if anyone else wants to pick that up as a symbol, I invite you.
- I replaced my Tim Kaine button with a Mockingjay.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
- Stop Making Sense is on YouTube
- I was recently invited to play at an event related to A Day Without Art, a reaction to the AIDS crisis from the Boston art scene. I was planning on performing a set of 80s punk songs. I've also (coincidentally) been reading a lot about the AIDS crisis in NYC in the early 80s. I keep seeing parallels between those stories and today and I'm scared to death.
- I plan on continuing to busk in the Boston subways, and I'm learning a set of Clash songs for the duration of my "tour" of the subways. I will also start wearing a white rose somewhere on my person as a tribute to Sophie Scholl, the anti-Nazi artist and resistance fighter. It's not much (and I will be doing activist work in addition to busking, because DUH), but if anyone else wants to pick that up as a symbol, I invite you.
- I replaced my Tim Kaine button with a Mockingjay.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
@pgrrrls: Please cease with the white privilege bullshit of "good art will come out of this"
posted by acb at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by acb at 4:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
I've been listening to A Prairie Home Companion for as long as I can remember, so I don't say this lightly: Fuck Garrison Keillor. "I'm a rich white guy, I'll be fine, LOL"
Penguin: You look like you're wearing a Blissfully Ignorant Guy With Zero Empathy suit.
Keillor: Who says I'm not?
posted by delfin at 4:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Penguin: You look like you're wearing a Blissfully Ignorant Guy With Zero Empathy suit.
Keillor: Who says I'm not?
posted by delfin at 4:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
I have been thinking about the messages the Democrats need to be consistent about sending, and another that occurred to me is that Democrats win when people vote and Republicans only win when people don't. Tragically, this election validated Republican voter suppression -- thank you, John Roberts! -- not only this time but also in future elections, as a conservative Supreme Court is likely to be hostile to universal access to the franchise ("original intent," my eye).
All Democrats can do is shine a light on Republican attempts to disenfranchise minority voters, but they must do so.
posted by Gelatin at 4:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
All Democrats can do is shine a light on Republican attempts to disenfranchise minority voters, but they must do so.
posted by Gelatin at 4:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
....Yikes, I had not considered how that bit of Garrison's would come across, sorry. I think I took it as a given that it is on the Democrats to be watchdogs as WELL as being hands off. Like, if the Republicans get it together long enough to enact a policy of any kind, then we stand up and say FUCK no, but otherwise we just sort of watch them run around like headless chickens all "but why isn't this working the way I thought it would what do I do".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Climate change gives me nightmares and Trump has pretty much closed the door on my thoughts of having kids. The Supreme Court is gonna be with us for a generation, and is absurdly depressing especially for everyone who's not a rich white male.
Otherwise, sure. Let the Republicans have all the rope they want to hang themselves in Congress and the executive. But to really get out of this hole we gotta start organizing state legislatures in 18 to rewrite corrupt voting laws to win nationwide in 20 so we can maybe get back to normal by 24. But like I said the court and the planet are already spinning round the toilet bowl, so...
posted by Glibpaxman at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Otherwise, sure. Let the Republicans have all the rope they want to hang themselves in Congress and the executive. But to really get out of this hole we gotta start organizing state legislatures in 18 to rewrite corrupt voting laws to win nationwide in 20 so we can maybe get back to normal by 24. But like I said the court and the planet are already spinning round the toilet bowl, so...
posted by Glibpaxman at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also found a great, inspiring piece by David Swanson on Counterpunch. Sadly his advice and call to action will no doubt be ignored. But if the US stopped its endless war policy (with all the ensuing death, environmental damage, and financial cost) and shut down its overseas bases, that would be the real revolution. Highly recommended, here are a few excerpts:
Dear Democrats,
Are you finding yourselves suddenly a bit doubtful of the wisdom of drone wars? Presidential wars without Congress? Massive investment in new, smaller, “more usable” nuclear weapons? The expansion of bases across Africa and Asia? Are you disturbed by the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen? Can total surveillance and the persecution of whistleblowers hit a point where they’ve gone too far? Is the new Cold War with Russia looking less than ideal now? How about the militarization of U.S. police: is it time to consider alternatives to that?
…
Dear Republicans,
Your outsider is threatening insiderness. He’s got the same tribe of DC corporate lobbyists planning his nominations that Hillary Clinton had lined up for hers. Can we resist that trend? Can we insist that the wars be ended? Can those moments of off-the-cuff honesty about dinosaurs like NATO be turned into actual action? Donald Trump took a lot of heat for proposing to be fair to Palestinians as well as Israelis, and he backed off fast. Can we encourage him to stand behind that initial inclination?
Can we stop the Trans-Pacific Partnership and end NAFTA as well? We heard a million speeches about how bad NAFTA is. How about actually ending it? Can we stop the looming war supplemental spending bill? Can we put a swift halt to efforts in Congress to repeal the right to sue Saudi Arabia and other nations for their wars and lesser acts of terrorism?
…
Dear World,
We apologize for having elected President Trump as well as for nearly electing President Clinton. Many of you believe we defeated the representative of the enlightenment in favor of the sexist racist buffoon. This may be a good thing. Or at least it may be preferable to your eight-year-long delusion that President Obama was a man of peace and justice.
I hate to break it to you, but the United States government has been intent on dominating the rest of you since the day it was formed. If electing an obnoxious president helps you understand that, so much the better. Stop joining in U.S. “humanitarian wars” please. They never were humanitarian, and if you can recognize that now, so much the better. The new guy openly wants to “steal their oil.” So did the last several presidents, although none of them said so. Are we awake now?
Shut down the U.S. bases in your country. They represent your subservience to Donald Trump. Close them.
posted by robbyrobs at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Dear Democrats,
Are you finding yourselves suddenly a bit doubtful of the wisdom of drone wars? Presidential wars without Congress? Massive investment in new, smaller, “more usable” nuclear weapons? The expansion of bases across Africa and Asia? Are you disturbed by the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen? Can total surveillance and the persecution of whistleblowers hit a point where they’ve gone too far? Is the new Cold War with Russia looking less than ideal now? How about the militarization of U.S. police: is it time to consider alternatives to that?
…
Dear Republicans,
Your outsider is threatening insiderness. He’s got the same tribe of DC corporate lobbyists planning his nominations that Hillary Clinton had lined up for hers. Can we resist that trend? Can we insist that the wars be ended? Can those moments of off-the-cuff honesty about dinosaurs like NATO be turned into actual action? Donald Trump took a lot of heat for proposing to be fair to Palestinians as well as Israelis, and he backed off fast. Can we encourage him to stand behind that initial inclination?
Can we stop the Trans-Pacific Partnership and end NAFTA as well? We heard a million speeches about how bad NAFTA is. How about actually ending it? Can we stop the looming war supplemental spending bill? Can we put a swift halt to efforts in Congress to repeal the right to sue Saudi Arabia and other nations for their wars and lesser acts of terrorism?
…
Dear World,
We apologize for having elected President Trump as well as for nearly electing President Clinton. Many of you believe we defeated the representative of the enlightenment in favor of the sexist racist buffoon. This may be a good thing. Or at least it may be preferable to your eight-year-long delusion that President Obama was a man of peace and justice.
I hate to break it to you, but the United States government has been intent on dominating the rest of you since the day it was formed. If electing an obnoxious president helps you understand that, so much the better. Stop joining in U.S. “humanitarian wars” please. They never were humanitarian, and if you can recognize that now, so much the better. The new guy openly wants to “steal their oil.” So did the last several presidents, although none of them said so. Are we awake now?
Shut down the U.S. bases in your country. They represent your subservience to Donald Trump. Close them.
posted by robbyrobs at 5:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Climate change may be escalating so fast it could be 'game over', scientists warn
Even if there are no horrible discoveries about how climate change is advancing even faster than we thought, even if it's just what we knew was coming four years ago, the Trump presidency is almost certainly game over. He'll undo every meaningful climate change policy the US enacted under Obama, and cripple the Paris agreement (which depended on buy-in from the wealthy nations to push the developing ones along for the ride). By the time we have a chance to throw him out in 2020, the next president would have to start the regulatory process from scratch again, there'd be no meaningful reductions for a decade or more, and we're fucked.
In related news, my wife and I aren't planning to have kids anymore.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
Even if there are no horrible discoveries about how climate change is advancing even faster than we thought, even if it's just what we knew was coming four years ago, the Trump presidency is almost certainly game over. He'll undo every meaningful climate change policy the US enacted under Obama, and cripple the Paris agreement (which depended on buy-in from the wealthy nations to push the developing ones along for the ride). By the time we have a chance to throw him out in 2020, the next president would have to start the regulatory process from scratch again, there'd be no meaningful reductions for a decade or more, and we're fucked.
In related news, my wife and I aren't planning to have kids anymore.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
Goodbye Blue Monday! Hello Blue Everything!
I moved back from the UK to southern Indiana in September. Ugh, Indiana, but that's where my support system is, and where my parents were willing to put me up while I find my feet again. I am amazingly privileged to even have that as an option. I am heartbroken to return to a country that elected Trump. I should have done more.
Once (if?) I have a full-time job again, I'll be making regular donations to the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc. I will find a way to start helping with my free time now (I've started with walking shelter dogs, because they've done nothing wrong).
But I watched Brexit happen in the UK and now this here and it is hard not to despair. The sale of my house in the UK is completing tomorrow and I think? I'm OK with it. I guess that was the right decision?
posted by minsies at 5:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I moved back from the UK to southern Indiana in September. Ugh, Indiana, but that's where my support system is, and where my parents were willing to put me up while I find my feet again. I am amazingly privileged to even have that as an option. I am heartbroken to return to a country that elected Trump. I should have done more.
Once (if?) I have a full-time job again, I'll be making regular donations to the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc. I will find a way to start helping with my free time now (I've started with walking shelter dogs, because they've done nothing wrong).
But I watched Brexit happen in the UK and now this here and it is hard not to despair. The sale of my house in the UK is completing tomorrow and I think? I'm OK with it. I guess that was the right decision?
posted by minsies at 5:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
. If anything it will cause them to vote for the other side out anger.
If someones reaction to being called a racist is to vote for the racist thats not on anybody but them. If you voted for Trump you voted for an outspoken racist who has literally threatened to deport people. Who mocks disabled people. Whose campaign deliberately uses anti-Semitic codewords.
I mean, I literally just Googled Godwin's law and the word Trump pops up as a suggestion.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [60 favorites]
If someones reaction to being called a racist is to vote for the racist thats not on anybody but them. If you voted for Trump you voted for an outspoken racist who has literally threatened to deport people. Who mocks disabled people. Whose campaign deliberately uses anti-Semitic codewords.
I mean, I literally just Googled Godwin's law and the word Trump pops up as a suggestion.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [60 favorites]
Shut down the U.S. bases in your country. They represent your subservience to Donald Trump. Close them.
No need to: the ones in Europe, Trump will probably close shortly after a summit with Putin (perhaps, for the sake of historical resonance, in Yalta). Shortly after that, courier services will start delivering Russian passports to Russian speakers in the Baltic states, and RT.com starts running stories about atrocities committed against Russians by the countries' homo-fascist governments; the Little Green Men will follow in quick succession, and by the time the world knows what has happened, the White House is one of the first nations to recognise Russia's sovereignty over what used to be Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Meanwhile, Poland announces the immediate conscription of all able-bodied men.
posted by acb at 5:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
No need to: the ones in Europe, Trump will probably close shortly after a summit with Putin (perhaps, for the sake of historical resonance, in Yalta). Shortly after that, courier services will start delivering Russian passports to Russian speakers in the Baltic states, and RT.com starts running stories about atrocities committed against Russians by the countries' homo-fascist governments; the Little Green Men will follow in quick succession, and by the time the world knows what has happened, the White House is one of the first nations to recognise Russia's sovereignty over what used to be Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Meanwhile, Poland announces the immediate conscription of all able-bodied men.
posted by acb at 5:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
I'm really worried for the Baltic nations
Side note: after doing their best during the Soviet era to commit cultural genocide in the Baltics, just the other year the ethnic Russian interlopers in Latvia narrowly lost a plebiscite to declare Russian an equal state language alongside Latvian.
The goal there was that because Latvia is part of the EU, all those European common market goods with ingredients & instructions etc in every single European language would have to add the Russian language.
So, good for Russia in terms of the ease of use of consumer goods, bad for a country of only a couple of million people, desperately clinging to their cultural identity.
The Kaliningrad enclave probably isn't as big a strategic / military issue as some may think. What is more likely is that ethnic tensions will rise as the Balts become more fearful & nationalistic, possibly prompting Russia to protect its ethically Russian people in theSudetenland Baltic states...but maybe with more of a view towards easier access to the European market than a purely military strategic goal...?
Probably heading more towards disharmony than harmony. Interesting times.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Side note: after doing their best during the Soviet era to commit cultural genocide in the Baltics, just the other year the ethnic Russian interlopers in Latvia narrowly lost a plebiscite to declare Russian an equal state language alongside Latvian.
The goal there was that because Latvia is part of the EU, all those European common market goods with ingredients & instructions etc in every single European language would have to add the Russian language.
So, good for Russia in terms of the ease of use of consumer goods, bad for a country of only a couple of million people, desperately clinging to their cultural identity.
The Kaliningrad enclave probably isn't as big a strategic / military issue as some may think. What is more likely is that ethnic tensions will rise as the Balts become more fearful & nationalistic, possibly prompting Russia to protect its ethically Russian people in the
Probably heading more towards disharmony than harmony. Interesting times.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
If she was helpless to shape the social and media forces arranged against her, she should have recognized that before she decided to run for President, and not run for President.
lol, women, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of misogyny!!!!1
lol, black people, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of racism!!!!
lol, gays, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of homophobia!!!1
the people in my life and online who have been playing the I-told-you-so game are the same ones who propped up Wikileaks and emails and conspiratorial BS about her up until Election Day.
I don't think it's very brave to spend the entire election season doing one's best to prop up the worst conspiracy beliefs about her and then claim she was at fault for being the subject of conspiracy theories.
posted by Anonymous at 5:08 AM on November 10, 2016
lol, women, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of misogyny!!!!1
lol, black people, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of racism!!!!
lol, gays, your failure is your fault for trying despite the existence of homophobia!!!1
the people in my life and online who have been playing the I-told-you-so game are the same ones who propped up Wikileaks and emails and conspiratorial BS about her up until Election Day.
I don't think it's very brave to spend the entire election season doing one's best to prop up the worst conspiracy beliefs about her and then claim she was at fault for being the subject of conspiracy theories.
posted by Anonymous at 5:08 AM on November 10, 2016
Wikileaks is not to blame for Clinton's abject failure.
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
The sale of my house in the UK is completing tomorrow and I think? I'm OK with it. I guess that was the right decision?
Perfect timing for converting Pounds to USD.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Perfect timing for converting Pounds to USD.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Kaliningrad enclave probably isn't as big a strategic / military issue as some may think.
Still, it must be an intolerable insult for a global power to be separated from its own territory in this way. Honour demands the correction of this slight!
posted by acb at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Still, it must be an intolerable insult for a global power to be separated from its own territory in this way. Honour demands the correction of this slight!
posted by acb at 5:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking and maybe the solution to climate change is getting Trump in on a scheme (it has to be a scheme) to cover every roof in North America with PVSolar. Let his greed work for the good of humanity.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 5:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wikileaks is not to blame for Clinton's abject failure.
Forgive, my sarcasm meter appears to be busted. I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.
posted by Mooski at 5:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Forgive, my sarcasm meter appears to be busted. I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.
posted by Mooski at 5:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Maybe you could place the solar panels in such a way that it spells TRUMP on each one.
posted by Static Vagabond at 5:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Static Vagabond at 5:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The thing that is the most dis-spiriting about a Trump victory is that while past presidents may have had horrid policies, Trump seems like one of the few who is horrible person at their core.
posted by drezdn at 5:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 5:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Perfect timing for converting Pounds to USD.
Figuratively "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
posted by Talez at 5:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Figuratively "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
posted by Talez at 5:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yesterday morning as my children arrived a teacher in their school was standing outside his classroom holding a sign that said "It's going to be all right."
I greatly admire the fact that this man on that morning possessed the clearness of mind and the compassion to think about what might make this a little easier for children who might be frightened and hurting, and I am grateful that he went into teaching.
There's a long road ahead and yes, bad things are going to happen, and disproportionately to the countless people who have been further marginalized by this election. But there are good, kind, proactive people working to make things better. Look for them, and help.
posted by Songdog at 5:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
I greatly admire the fact that this man on that morning possessed the clearness of mind and the compassion to think about what might make this a little easier for children who might be frightened and hurting, and I am grateful that he went into teaching.
There's a long road ahead and yes, bad things are going to happen, and disproportionately to the countless people who have been further marginalized by this election. But there are good, kind, proactive people working to make things better. Look for them, and help.
posted by Songdog at 5:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Still, it must be an intolerable insult for a global power to be separated from its own territory in this way. Honour demands the correction of this slight!
Easy solution: build them a railway through no-man's-land, skirting the borders of the Baltics.
I'm sure the queues will stretch for days, for eager punters desperate to ride the Petersburg-Kaliningrad Express so they can warm themselves by the samovars of countrymen they have never met nor cared about before.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Easy solution: build them a railway through no-man's-land, skirting the borders of the Baltics.
I'm sure the queues will stretch for days, for eager punters desperate to ride the Petersburg-Kaliningrad Express so they can warm themselves by the samovars of countrymen they have never met nor cared about before.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perfect timing for converting Pounds to USD.
This is, sadly, a thought I've had to have lately.
posted by Artw at 5:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is, sadly, a thought I've had to have lately.
posted by Artw at 5:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Side note: after doing their best during the Soviet era to commit cultural genocide in the Baltics, just the other year the ethnic Russian interlopers in Latvia narrowly lost a plebiscite to declare Russian an equal state language alongside Latvian.
How loyal to Putin are the Latvian Russians? I read a while ago (in Der Spiegel, I believe) that the citizens of the (90% Russian-speaking) eastern-Estonian city of Narva are very much pro-European and have little time for Russian nationalism or visions of “Eurasian” autocratic traditions of governance. They like their rule of law, not being fleeced by mafias or oligarchs, and the general humanistic post-Enlightenment world view very much, and aren't in a hurry to trade it in.
posted by acb at 5:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
How loyal to Putin are the Latvian Russians? I read a while ago (in Der Spiegel, I believe) that the citizens of the (90% Russian-speaking) eastern-Estonian city of Narva are very much pro-European and have little time for Russian nationalism or visions of “Eurasian” autocratic traditions of governance. They like their rule of law, not being fleeced by mafias or oligarchs, and the general humanistic post-Enlightenment world view very much, and aren't in a hurry to trade it in.
posted by acb at 5:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Coda Tronca, the failure was not abject, it was a narrow victory in terms of votes, and there's a good chance that without the allied forces of Russia, the FBI, and Wikileaks the ball could have bounced the other way, even accounting for inherent misogyny and discontent.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 5:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 5:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
Yesterday morning as my children arrived a teacher in their school was standing outside his classroom holding a sign that said "It's going to be all right."
Or, in Italian, “La Vita e Bella”
posted by acb at 5:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or, in Italian, “La Vita e Bella”
posted by acb at 5:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are we doing the blame game yet?
posted by rhizome at 5:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 5:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Easy solution: build them a railway through no-man's-land, skirting the borders of the Baltics.
Is there legally a no-man's land between, say, Lithuania and Poland that any other nation could legally build a railway through, including cutting through Polish-Lithuanian highways and railways to do so? I thought there was no such thing.
posted by acb at 5:21 AM on November 10, 2016
Is there legally a no-man's land between, say, Lithuania and Poland that any other nation could legally build a railway through, including cutting through Polish-Lithuanian highways and railways to do so? I thought there was no such thing.
posted by acb at 5:21 AM on November 10, 2016
Are we doing the blame game yet?
Yeah, but since a woman is involved, it's on Easy Mode and not nearly as much fun.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [97 favorites]
Trump and Brexit: why it’s again NOT the economy, stupid
posted by Artw at 5:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Basically everyone who has been seething about her win since the primaries is now taking this opportunity to trot out all the shit one can easily refute via Snopes. "She's corrupt! Bernie would have won, 100%! Emails! EMAILS!"
Some of us know intimately how a woman who seeks to become a leader will inevitably become the subject of narratives that have less to do with the truth than with what our society thinks is true about women who seek leadership. Some of us were excited about her candidacy precisely because she'd been subject to this, and it captured our imagination that if one just worked hard enough and endured one could succeed despite it. That she lost to the personification of misogyny, and that she's now being blamed because peeler are claiming she took the spot that should have been a man's--well. I suppose those touting the latter argument area sending a message, but perhaps not the one they intend.
It would be appreciated if, if only for this thread, we could maybe step out from the background radiation of misogyny within our culture, you know?
posted by Anonymous at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016
Some of us know intimately how a woman who seeks to become a leader will inevitably become the subject of narratives that have less to do with the truth than with what our society thinks is true about women who seek leadership. Some of us were excited about her candidacy precisely because she'd been subject to this, and it captured our imagination that if one just worked hard enough and endured one could succeed despite it. That she lost to the personification of misogyny, and that she's now being blamed because peeler are claiming she took the spot that should have been a man's--well. I suppose those touting the latter argument area sending a message, but perhaps not the one they intend.
It would be appreciated if, if only for this thread, we could maybe step out from the background radiation of misogyny within our culture, you know?
posted by Anonymous at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016
I think I took it as a given that it is on the Democrats to be watchdogs as WELL as being hands off. Like, if the Republicans get it together long enough to enact a policy of any kind, then we stand up and say FUCK no, but otherwise we just sort of watch them run around like headless chickens all "but why isn't this working the way I thought it would what do I do".
See, I thought that way in the Dubya years. I was not impressed with what followed.
I am old, and cynical. I have every expectation that Chuck fucking Schumer will counsel that We Have To Keep Our Powder Dry, We Can Only Filibuster In Matters of Direst Import and They Have a Clear Mandate and We Must Respect That, and his threshold for "this is worth filibustering" will be a lot higher than most would suggest, despite rampant Republican obstruction being rewarded with more seats and more control.
And I think you will be surprised at what they now feel motivated to enact. The Republican mantra is simple: We believe that all government should be abolished _except for the highest level that we control_.
posted by delfin at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
See, I thought that way in the Dubya years. I was not impressed with what followed.
I am old, and cynical. I have every expectation that Chuck fucking Schumer will counsel that We Have To Keep Our Powder Dry, We Can Only Filibuster In Matters of Direst Import and They Have a Clear Mandate and We Must Respect That, and his threshold for "this is worth filibustering" will be a lot higher than most would suggest, despite rampant Republican obstruction being rewarded with more seats and more control.
And I think you will be surprised at what they now feel motivated to enact. The Republican mantra is simple: We believe that all government should be abolished _except for the highest level that we control_.
posted by delfin at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
the failure was not abject
Surely that's up for debate though, even here, and even though she's a woman.
Perhaps of interest at Naked Capitalism: "Let us not forget that Clinton had every advantage: Presidential campaign experience, the full backing of her party, a much bigger ground apparatus, oodles of experts and surrogates, the Mighty Wurlitzer of the media behind her, an opponent widely deemed to be world-class terrible – utterly unqualified, undisciplined, offensive, with a mother lode of scandals – and what historically was deemed the most important asset of all, a large lead in fundraising.
We have very little idea of what a Trump presidency will amount to. My best guess has been that he will be a Jimmy Carter cubed in Berlusconi packaging."
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely that's up for debate though, even here, and even though she's a woman.
Perhaps of interest at Naked Capitalism: "Let us not forget that Clinton had every advantage: Presidential campaign experience, the full backing of her party, a much bigger ground apparatus, oodles of experts and surrogates, the Mighty Wurlitzer of the media behind her, an opponent widely deemed to be world-class terrible – utterly unqualified, undisciplined, offensive, with a mother lode of scandals – and what historically was deemed the most important asset of all, a large lead in fundraising.
We have very little idea of what a Trump presidency will amount to. My best guess has been that he will be a Jimmy Carter cubed in Berlusconi packaging."
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also do not make the mistake that Trump is the only problem. Trump is the front man for the problem but he has lots and lots of company in Congress, in Governorships, in state legislatures, in school boards, in local leadership and they all feel like now it's their turn to Set The World Right.
We're all in Brownback's Kansas now.
posted by delfin at 5:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
We're all in Brownback's Kansas now.
posted by delfin at 5:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
Surely that's up for debate though, even here, and even though she's a woman.
What is up for debate is whether a little less than half the voting public cast their vote for a narcissistic racist misogynist homophobe who's broken everything he's touched rather than Clinton because she's a woman.
I mean, I tend to assume it's because they're ignorant racists, but misogyny is right up there.
posted by Mooski at 5:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
What is up for debate is whether a little less than half the voting public cast their vote for a narcissistic racist misogynist homophobe who's broken everything he's touched rather than Clinton because she's a woman.
I mean, I tend to assume it's because they're ignorant racists, but misogyny is right up there.
posted by Mooski at 5:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
How loyal to Putin are the Latvian Russians?
Loyalty to Putin I cannot comment on, but any ethnic Russians in the Baltic states could be considered akin to around 50% of Israel being populated by Germans who refuse to give up Weisswurst und die Deutsche Sprache.
They have arguably better opportunities there, but are neither liked nor welcome. It's like being forced to live with the child of your rapist.
They presumably prefer being part of Europe, but if & when ethnic tensions increase then I guess they'd see Mother Russia as their saviours...?
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Loyalty to Putin I cannot comment on, but any ethnic Russians in the Baltic states could be considered akin to around 50% of Israel being populated by Germans who refuse to give up Weisswurst und die Deutsche Sprache.
They have arguably better opportunities there, but are neither liked nor welcome. It's like being forced to live with the child of your rapist.
They presumably prefer being part of Europe, but if & when ethnic tensions increase then I guess they'd see Mother Russia as their saviours...?
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there legally a no-man's land between, say, Lithuania and Poland that any other nation could legally build a railway through, including cutting through Polish-Lithuanian highways and railways to do so? I thought there was no such thing.
Pah, forget the railways. It can be ekranoplans all the way. Hover a few yards above all obstacles.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pah, forget the railways. It can be ekranoplans all the way. Hover a few yards above all obstacles.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is fine.
posted by tommasz at 5:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 5:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
So is the Democratic establishment going to have a come to Jesus moment and accept that their support of free trade is probably the biggest reason Trump won? Seriously, all you have to do is compare the 2012 path to victory map to the 2016 path to victory map to understand that there is nothing keeping Democrats from soundly defeating Trump in 4 years other than their support for perhaps the most unpopular economic policy in my lifetime, free trade. Everyone except banksters, lobbyist, and politicians hate it, and Democrats support for it is a giant weight around the neck of the entire progressive agenda.
posted by Beholder at 5:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 5:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Moscow had contacts with Trump team during campaign, Russian diplomat says
posted by bluecore at 5:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by bluecore at 5:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
9% of registered Democrats voted for Trump.
And I imagine all of them told pollsters they weren't.
posted by corb at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
And I imagine all of them told pollsters they weren't.
posted by corb at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
For those who are interested in upping your infosec game, I'm starting to write a bit about that here. I'm not an expert but I've been taught by people who are and I hope I can give a few good pointers.
(Sorry about the crossposting.)
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
(Sorry about the crossposting.)
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
mediareport: I remember Reagan. There were times when every day brought a fresh new horror show of ignorance, incompetence and lies. The next year will be like that.
But with more support for white supremicits, general racists, homophobes and xenophobes, right? Some called Reagan the most anti-woman president of the 20th century, and Ronald "a tree is a tree, how many more do you need to look at?" Reagan is remembered for appointing two of the most intensely controversial and blatantly anti-environmental political appointees, so Donny can stand on the shoulder of that giant shitbeast for those issues.
Which is to say, the country survived, but was worse for it.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
But with more support for white supremicits, general racists, homophobes and xenophobes, right? Some called Reagan the most anti-woman president of the 20th century, and Ronald "a tree is a tree, how many more do you need to look at?" Reagan is remembered for appointing two of the most intensely controversial and blatantly anti-environmental political appointees, so Donny can stand on the shoulder of that giant shitbeast for those issues.
Which is to say, the country survived, but was worse for it.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
We can't afford to lose anyone in our coalition.
This is very important, and encouraging coalition is a goal that all Democrats and allies struggle with, often mightily.
There are no easy answers to that problem sadly.
Personally, I'm redoubling my efforts to make sure I am fairly describing the views of my allies, so that I do not misread reasonable disagreement as unwarranted attack. I'm also trying find productive ways to engage when my allies misread my own reasonable disagreement, though I'm finding that much harder to do.
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is very important, and encouraging coalition is a goal that all Democrats and allies struggle with, often mightily.
There are no easy answers to that problem sadly.
Personally, I'm redoubling my efforts to make sure I am fairly describing the views of my allies, so that I do not misread reasonable disagreement as unwarranted attack. I'm also trying find productive ways to engage when my allies misread my own reasonable disagreement, though I'm finding that much harder to do.
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been struggling to write anything for almost a year now, at least in part due to anxiety over the election and what the mere existence of Trump was doing to people. Now I've heard from separate sources of at least four trans people that they knew personally having committed suicide, in at least one case with harassment specifying Trump's election.
I have composed a new drabble to express my feelings. I have titled it Justice for All
Apparently being too angry to walk or talk without clenching fists and jaw is a more creative mood than panicky free-floating anxiety.
posted by Scattercat at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have composed a new drabble to express my feelings. I have titled it Justice for All
Apparently being too angry to walk or talk without clenching fists and jaw is a more creative mood than panicky free-floating anxiety.
posted by Scattercat at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I understand all the "Hillary made it so close - yay!" feelings but I cannot get past their deliberate strategy of pushing Trump via the media in the primaries to encourage the GOP to select him.
The Clintons and the DNC helped elect the most despicable candidate in American history.
I am beyond grief at this point. We are in for a rude change and it's going to hurt.
I also cannot get past the fact that the 1/5 rule is potentially biting us in reverse - only about 20% of the eligible 230 million voters ended up voting.
posted by glaucon at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
The Clintons and the DNC helped elect the most despicable candidate in American history.
I am beyond grief at this point. We are in for a rude change and it's going to hurt.
I also cannot get past the fact that the 1/5 rule is potentially biting us in reverse - only about 20% of the eligible 230 million voters ended up voting.
posted by glaucon at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Are we doing the blame game yet?
That's the thing where the people who did something bad deflect attention by calling it "the blame game", right?
posted by thelonius at 5:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
That's the thing where the people who did something bad deflect attention by calling it "the blame game", right?
posted by thelonius at 5:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
There are enough minor scandals involving Clintons that Republicans could take about them forever, so no idea if the wikileaks emails played any role. And there are many reasons why wikileaks releasing early benifits everyone.
I think the FBI investigation and Comey's reports sound more official, making them harder to ignore. And I hope the FBI pays for that big time.
Yet, all these influences were likely dwarfed by the Clinton campaign's own Pied Piper strategy of asking their media friends to give Trump free media attention during the primaries though, Wrinkled Stumpskin, which gave him momentum for the general election.
We'd have witnessed a very different campaign had Trump needed to raise money money for television ads both during the primaries and during the general.
Yes, there are good odds Clinton's campaign might've faced an army of religious conservatives backing Ted Cruz, but they might've scared off many who voted for Trump, and Cruz cannot play the trade card against her so easily.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the FBI investigation and Comey's reports sound more official, making them harder to ignore. And I hope the FBI pays for that big time.
Yet, all these influences were likely dwarfed by the Clinton campaign's own Pied Piper strategy of asking their media friends to give Trump free media attention during the primaries though, Wrinkled Stumpskin, which gave him momentum for the general election.
We'd have witnessed a very different campaign had Trump needed to raise money money for television ads both during the primaries and during the general.
Yes, there are good odds Clinton's campaign might've faced an army of religious conservatives backing Ted Cruz, but they might've scared off many who voted for Trump, and Cruz cannot play the trade card against her so easily.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
You know who else helped get Trump elected? People who didn't vote for any presidential candidate or a third party and people who discouraged others from doing so. I'm gathering from these threads and all the new Hillary Evil Technocrat posts, and the assorted look how many less Dems voted for her than Obama, as well as a few direct mentions of skipping the choice, that includes a number of people here. So maybe not throwing stones would be wise.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 5:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Myron Ebell is the EPA transition team leader.
♫ They paved paradise and put up a parking lot. ♩♪
posted by Talez at 5:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
♫ They paved paradise and put up a parking lot. ♩♪
posted by Talez at 5:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
From a local SA journo ouside the WH on election night.
@carienduplessis: Pro-Trump women said he really cares about them. They know that because he ran for president but doesn't need the money
posted by PenDevil at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
@carienduplessis: Pro-Trump women said he really cares about them. They know that because he ran for president but doesn't need the money
posted by PenDevil at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This all drives me a little nuts really. The Republicans run on a platform of prideful ignorance, while the Democrats run as the clever know-it-alls, yet election after election, those embracing ignorance out smart the know-it-alls who end up fighting among themselves to see what or who they should sacrifice next.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
There was an opportunity this year to bury the Republicans and Democrats for good. Bernie and Bloomberg could have ran their own independent campaigns and Trump/Cinton would have been relegated to 3rd and 4th choices. Both were cowed by the Democratic party and the Clintons. These two parties are done, neither represents the true will of the people anymore. Democrats are beholden to big finance, Republicans big business. Trump won because he bashed the Republican party. Fuck all of you who demonized Ralph Nader in the years 2000, it's kept every viable 3rd choice away from running since. If you are not willing to give up a generation to create true democracy in this country you deserve fascism.
posted by any major dude at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by any major dude at 5:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
So is the Democratic establishment going to have a come to Jesus moment and accept that their support of free trade is probably the biggest reason Trump won?
Let's hope they don't come to think that, since every person with a functioning ability to reason sees that free trade is necessary for the growth of the world. Their support of free trade is "probably the biggest reason Trump won" in the same way that their support of civil rights for non-whites is "probably the biggest reason Trump won", and we should not throw decency under the bus in order to appeal to a small, selfish, and shrinking demographic that didn't even turn the election in the first place, since the actual reason Trump won is that a lot of people didn't get their voices heard.
The degree of voter disenfranchisement--very intentional and targeted voter disenfranchisement, at that--makes the election illegitimate. Donald Trump did not win a damn thing.
If no legal remedy can be had, then we need to do it the other way. For the second time in my not-very-long life, the Republicans have stolen an election that was rightfully won by a Democrat, and this time they look to do even more harm. They are not actors in good faith. They have proven that they have no interest in democracy, and so we must remove them from the system.
posted by IAmUnaware at 5:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Let's hope they don't come to think that, since every person with a functioning ability to reason sees that free trade is necessary for the growth of the world. Their support of free trade is "probably the biggest reason Trump won" in the same way that their support of civil rights for non-whites is "probably the biggest reason Trump won", and we should not throw decency under the bus in order to appeal to a small, selfish, and shrinking demographic that didn't even turn the election in the first place, since the actual reason Trump won is that a lot of people didn't get their voices heard.
The degree of voter disenfranchisement--very intentional and targeted voter disenfranchisement, at that--makes the election illegitimate. Donald Trump did not win a damn thing.
If no legal remedy can be had, then we need to do it the other way. For the second time in my not-very-long life, the Republicans have stolen an election that was rightfully won by a Democrat, and this time they look to do even more harm. They are not actors in good faith. They have proven that they have no interest in democracy, and so we must remove them from the system.
posted by IAmUnaware at 5:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Election about Hillary losing: From what I saw Bernie would have beaten Trump & Obama could have been elected to 3rd term
Thinking about alternate universes is just not useful. Would Sanders have won? Ehhhhh... imagine the functional part of the primary season had drawn out, probably become pretty negative as things flipped, and gone narrowly for Sanders in the end. Yeah, he probably would have had more success with white exurban voters in WI/MI/PA. But he also would have been a Democratic candidate that had been hugely, overwhelmingly rejected by black Democratic voters, and it's reasonable to think that black turnout would have been lower for him than it was for Clinton. Does he win PA, MI, WI with lower turnout in Philly/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Milwaukee?
This was a bad primary cycle that pitted core elements of the Democratic coalition against each other and one group or another was always likely to have depressed turnout as a result.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Thinking about alternate universes is just not useful. Would Sanders have won? Ehhhhh... imagine the functional part of the primary season had drawn out, probably become pretty negative as things flipped, and gone narrowly for Sanders in the end. Yeah, he probably would have had more success with white exurban voters in WI/MI/PA. But he also would have been a Democratic candidate that had been hugely, overwhelmingly rejected by black Democratic voters, and it's reasonable to think that black turnout would have been lower for him than it was for Clinton. Does he win PA, MI, WI with lower turnout in Philly/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Milwaukee?
This was a bad primary cycle that pitted core elements of the Democratic coalition against each other and one group or another was always likely to have depressed turnout as a result.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
So is the Democratic establishment going to have a come to Jesus moment and accept that their support of free trade is probably the biggest reason Trump won? Seriously, all you have to do is compare the 2012 path to victory map to the 2016 path to victory map to understand that there is nothing keeping Democrats from soundly defeating Trump in 4 years other than their support for perhaps the most unpopular economic policy in my lifetime, free trade. Everyone except banksters, lobbyist, and politicians hate it, and Democrats support for it is a giant weight around the neck of the entire progressive agenda.
Hillary expressed plenty of skepticism about free trade, just less than Trump. There was a sense that she was lying (I don't think she was), but she definitely did not express unconditional support for free trade. Plus, the American people generally recognize some important benefits (to them) of free trade (it's one poll so take it for what it's worth). I think that's right, too, because I suspect if you said to Americans "there are more manufacturing jobs in Michigan*, but now shirts costs $75," they'd not take that deal. Here, it just happened that the states that wound up mattering were ones for whom the trade message resonated**; I don't think it resonated with Americans generally.
*I also think that limiting free trade is not bringing back manufacturing jobs to Michigan, except maybe if we're lucky for a few people who program the robots.
**We're assuming. I think it's too early to say what precisely motivated the Trump votes in the Rust Belt.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hillary expressed plenty of skepticism about free trade, just less than Trump. There was a sense that she was lying (I don't think she was), but she definitely did not express unconditional support for free trade. Plus, the American people generally recognize some important benefits (to them) of free trade (it's one poll so take it for what it's worth). I think that's right, too, because I suspect if you said to Americans "there are more manufacturing jobs in Michigan*, but now shirts costs $75," they'd not take that deal. Here, it just happened that the states that wound up mattering were ones for whom the trade message resonated**; I don't think it resonated with Americans generally.
*I also think that limiting free trade is not bringing back manufacturing jobs to Michigan, except maybe if we're lucky for a few people who program the robots.
**We're assuming. I think it's too early to say what precisely motivated the Trump votes in the Rust Belt.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
My paternal grandfather got out of Poland before it got bad in the 30's. There's family history of not waiting around until it's too late.
At the end of the day, more than half the voters want Trump's brand of hate and misogyny. I'm less worried about what HE will do, rather than what his emboldened supporters will. As in, "I am now worried driving down I-95 while Jewish, in case I run into someone who doesn't like Jews".
And I'm worried that after they get tired of lynching Journalists, Muslims, and Gays, my family and I are next.
So, we're preparing to make Aliyah, just in case we have to get out of the US quickly.
posted by mikelieman at 5:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
At the end of the day, more than half the voters want Trump's brand of hate and misogyny. I'm less worried about what HE will do, rather than what his emboldened supporters will. As in, "I am now worried driving down I-95 while Jewish, in case I run into someone who doesn't like Jews".
And I'm worried that after they get tired of lynching Journalists, Muslims, and Gays, my family and I are next.
So, we're preparing to make Aliyah, just in case we have to get out of the US quickly.
posted by mikelieman at 5:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
There was an opportunity this year to bury the Republicans and Democrats for good. Bernie and Bloomberg could have ran their own independent campaigns and Trump/Cinton would have been relegated to 3rd and 4th choices.
This is complete fantasy. Let's be very clear on that.
If George Clooney, Donald Duck and Ronald McDonald had run, they'da all won as well.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
This is complete fantasy. Let's be very clear on that.
If George Clooney, Donald Duck and Ronald McDonald had run, they'da all won as well.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
Most Americans know virtually nothing about trade deals. Just like they know little about most other complex areas of government and don't tend to vote on those things, they vote on the package the salespeople wrap it in.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 5:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think we should focus on blaming the fascists who elected a fascist, not the people who tried to stop him.
posted by EarBucket at 5:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [107 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 5:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [107 favorites]
So is the Democratic establishment going to have a come to Jesus moment and accept that their support of free trade is probably the biggest reason Trump won?
Everything I've read about NAFTA was that it brought more jobs to the US. Hillary not correcting that and in essence running away from that accusation allowed it to stick. I really think her dumbest move was her impassioned defense of abortion during the debate. Why the fuck would you not skate past the biggest hot button that drove Republicans to the polls in the Bush years?
posted by any major dude at 5:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everything I've read about NAFTA was that it brought more jobs to the US. Hillary not correcting that and in essence running away from that accusation allowed it to stick. I really think her dumbest move was her impassioned defense of abortion during the debate. Why the fuck would you not skate past the biggest hot button that drove Republicans to the polls in the Bush years?
posted by any major dude at 5:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pennsylvania had 5 state-wide races on Tuesday, and male Democrats won three of them (Attorney General, Auditor General, and State Treasurer), while female Democrats lost two of them (Senator and President). Must be a coincidence.
posted by muddgirl at 5:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 5:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
Everything I've read about NAFTA was that it brought more jobs to the US.
Not only that, but lowered prices for consumers and made the entire country more productive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Not only that, but lowered prices for consumers and made the entire country more productive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
If Hillary had won the list of losers would have been:
* Very rich white men, who will have to pay in a tiny bit more they won't even notice
Who loses now:
*Women. All women. Their rights will be degraded, their access to healthcare will be removed, their voices will be silenced. I'm sad. Some of my best friends are women.
*Sikhs.
*Muslims
*Hindus
*Non-white people
*LGBTQDGU* people. Ok, simpler. Anyone who is not a white, male, dick-swinging, square-jawed Proper American
*Latinx
*Anyone who ever needs healthcare
*Those who have ability deficits
*Chronically ill people
*Dugongs in Moreton Bay
*3.9 billion people who live in areas that will be flooded because the US doesn't cut back its CO2 emissions. Seriously - 50% of global CO2 emissions are the fault of the US.
I mention the dugongs because they rely on a complex web of environmental interactions that seriously depend on less agricultural waste runoff and less climate change. Which way do you think those are going to trend now? This disaster has a long reach.
For the last three hours I have tried to think of a good thing.
Can't see one.
posted by Combat Wombat at 5:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [51 favorites]
* Very rich white men, who will have to pay in a tiny bit more they won't even notice
Who loses now:
*Women. All women. Their rights will be degraded, their access to healthcare will be removed, their voices will be silenced. I'm sad. Some of my best friends are women.
*Sikhs.
*Muslims
*Hindus
*Non-white people
*LGBTQDGU* people. Ok, simpler. Anyone who is not a white, male, dick-swinging, square-jawed Proper American
*Latinx
*Anyone who ever needs healthcare
*Those who have ability deficits
*Chronically ill people
*Dugongs in Moreton Bay
*3.9 billion people who live in areas that will be flooded because the US doesn't cut back its CO2 emissions. Seriously - 50% of global CO2 emissions are the fault of the US.
I mention the dugongs because they rely on a complex web of environmental interactions that seriously depend on less agricultural waste runoff and less climate change. Which way do you think those are going to trend now? This disaster has a long reach.
For the last three hours I have tried to think of a good thing.
Can't see one.
posted by Combat Wombat at 5:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [51 favorites]
Loyalty to Putin I cannot comment on, but any ethnic Russians in the Baltic states could be considered akin to around 50% of Israel being populated by Germans who refuse to give up Weisswurst und die Deutsche Sprache. They have arguably better opportunities there, but are neither liked nor welcome. It's like being forced to live with the child of your rapist.
That's one (nationalist-essentialist) way of looking at it; another could be “Well, they're here, they speak Russian but embrace democracy, human rights and pluralism; proof that Another Russia Is Possible”
They used to say that the Germans will never take to democracy either, because they, at a fundamental cultural level, need to be regimented and have strong leaders. That essentialist certainty fell (1968 and 1989 were two inflection points), and perhaps the equation of Russia with Byzantine caesaropapist autocracy will some day as well.
posted by acb at 5:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
That's one (nationalist-essentialist) way of looking at it; another could be “Well, they're here, they speak Russian but embrace democracy, human rights and pluralism; proof that Another Russia Is Possible”
They used to say that the Germans will never take to democracy either, because they, at a fundamental cultural level, need to be regimented and have strong leaders. That essentialist certainty fell (1968 and 1989 were two inflection points), and perhaps the equation of Russia with Byzantine caesaropapist autocracy will some day as well.
posted by acb at 5:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why the fuck would you not skate past the biggest hot button that drove Republicans to the polls in the Bush years?
Oh I dunno. Cos she's got principles. Because Roe v Wade. Because Supreme Court. Because Planned Parenthood. Because Wendy Davis. Because hopeful young women.
Anyone thick enough to think Donald Trump gives two fucks about abortion wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
Oh I dunno. Cos she's got principles. Because Roe v Wade. Because Supreme Court. Because Planned Parenthood. Because Wendy Davis. Because hopeful young women.
Anyone thick enough to think Donald Trump gives two fucks about abortion wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
With all the handwringing and fingerpointing going on, few people, especially in the media, are pointing out that all those voter suppression schemes worked exactly as intended in this election.
posted by TedW at 6:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
posted by TedW at 6:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
And I'm worried that after they get tired of lynching Journalists, Muslims, and Gays, my family and I are next.
Obligatory:
First they came for the Journalists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Journalist.
Then they came for the Gay Islamists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Gay Islamist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
wait.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Obligatory:
First they came for the Journalists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Journalist.
Then they came for the Gay Islamists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Gay Islamist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
wait.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Which is to say, the country survived, but was worse for it.
This. We are not watching The End Of America As A Nation, we are watching America returning to one of its baseline positions. We on the left do our best to lift it up to a higher place, and the crabs pull it back down into the bucket whenever we are within reach.
Ever seen a situation where a bully - bullied relationship gets reversed and now the bullied has the power? Sometimes they react well, and try to change things so that tensions are lessened. Sometimes they go "NOW IT'S _MY_ TURN" and are just as bad in the other direction.
There are some wingnuts who have spent the Obama years preaching GOD IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY, YOU MUST RESIST LIBERAL EVIL IN HIS NAME. They are a minority. But the louder chorus from right-wing media is simpler and more widely received: You, the conservatives of America, are being BULLIED. It is your rightful place to lead this nation and have good jobs and live your lives your way, but the oddballs -- the eggheads, the liberals, the blacks, the feminists, the immigrants, the sexual deviants -- they are BULLYING YOU by forcing social change upon you. They are bullying you into baking cakes and bullying you into watching your tax dollars go to help the needy and they are bullying you by declaring war on Christmas. Aren't you angry? Aren't you hurt? Aren't you ready to fight back?
And now they're back in the driver's seat. And many of them will respond predictably, and we all get to watch. And maybe try to shield the most vulnerable when we can.
posted by delfin at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
This. We are not watching The End Of America As A Nation, we are watching America returning to one of its baseline positions. We on the left do our best to lift it up to a higher place, and the crabs pull it back down into the bucket whenever we are within reach.
Ever seen a situation where a bully - bullied relationship gets reversed and now the bullied has the power? Sometimes they react well, and try to change things so that tensions are lessened. Sometimes they go "NOW IT'S _MY_ TURN" and are just as bad in the other direction.
There are some wingnuts who have spent the Obama years preaching GOD IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY, YOU MUST RESIST LIBERAL EVIL IN HIS NAME. They are a minority. But the louder chorus from right-wing media is simpler and more widely received: You, the conservatives of America, are being BULLIED. It is your rightful place to lead this nation and have good jobs and live your lives your way, but the oddballs -- the eggheads, the liberals, the blacks, the feminists, the immigrants, the sexual deviants -- they are BULLYING YOU by forcing social change upon you. They are bullying you into baking cakes and bullying you into watching your tax dollars go to help the needy and they are bullying you by declaring war on Christmas. Aren't you angry? Aren't you hurt? Aren't you ready to fight back?
And now they're back in the driver's seat. And many of them will respond predictably, and we all get to watch. And maybe try to shield the most vulnerable when we can.
posted by delfin at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oh I dunno. Cos she's got principles. Because Roe v Wade. Because Supreme Court. Because Planned Parenthood. Because Wendy Davis. Because hopeful young women.
Anyone thick enough to think Donald Trump gives two fucks about abortion wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway.
One problem, Democrats don't get off the couch to vote FOR abortion as an issue, Republicans do - in droves. Anyone inspired by that already had her vote. Just another stupid miscalculation no doubt emboldened by the bullshit Nate Silver polls.
posted by any major dude at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyone thick enough to think Donald Trump gives two fucks about abortion wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway.
One problem, Democrats don't get off the couch to vote FOR abortion as an issue, Republicans do - in droves. Anyone inspired by that already had her vote. Just another stupid miscalculation no doubt emboldened by the bullshit Nate Silver polls.
posted by any major dude at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Republicans' Senate Tactics Leave Trump Wide Sway Over Nation's Courts
...In the short run, Trump will have more than 100 other judicial nominations to make to the lower federal courts. There are 103 judicial vacancies on the federal trial and appellate courts, or roughly an eighth of the entire federal judiciary. There are 59 pending Obama nominations to fill a majority of those seats, but Republicans have been artful about slow-walking these Obama lower court appointments, and the Republican Senate has confirmed only 11 judges since the beginning of the year. Now all of those pending appointments will die.posted by p3t3 at 6:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Nate Silver isn't a pollster.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is there any chance the electoral college will turn faithless in Dec?
posted by slipthought at 6:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by slipthought at 6:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
But there are also other things going on here with her, specifically, as a candidate that we need to evaluate in order to move on and select better candidates.
Let's be clear: Clinton, like all humans and any politician who's a politician long enough, is imperfect. But she lost against someone who was not only corrupt, deceitful, racist, and misogynist to a degree we've never seen in a major candidate, but reveled in those qualities. Clinton, for all her flaws, was miles and miles a better candidate and person, and her loss says less about her than the voting public.
If she lost to Jeb!, Rubio, even Cruz, there'd be a better base for the "We just need better candidates" argument. But her loss to Trump speaks to ugly, ugly social beliefs about (A) women and our proper place, and (B) what anyone is allowed to say about race and equality. Because in a world without those effects, that shitheel would've lost to a dustbin.
In that context, we have two options:
(1) Pander to those forces and put forward the white dude.
(2) If presented with a candidate who is qualified but might fall victim to them, vigorously fight against the narratives constructed by those forces. Not deny that such narratives were constructed, and certainly not buy into them and perpetuate them.
Unfortunately, when many on the left were denied the first option, they denied that any narrative was ever a narrative--and worse, bought into and perpetuated it. So many people I know on the left think her email server was hacked, and wouldn't have been if run through the State Department--when the exact opposite happened. Who deny interference from Russia in online election chatter, despite the number of security agencies affirming it's the case. Who claim Benghazi was because she personally cut security budgets, when it was the responsibility of a Republican Congress. And on and on.
I think that not enough effort was made to push against these things. I think that's because these lies fed into our pre-existing notion of who she is. Which itself was deliberately constructed decades ago by people who hated the idea of women in politics, and successfully perpetuated because it fit what our society tells us is characteristic of women seeking power.
Lest it be misconstrued, I'm not saying "Trump is the Left's fault." Obviously, Trump is the fault of our fucking gross sexist, misogynist society. I am saying that those who identify as progressive too often forget they themselves are a product of said society, and have blind spots towards how that affects them.
posted by Anonymous at 6:09 AM on November 10, 2016
Let's be clear: Clinton, like all humans and any politician who's a politician long enough, is imperfect. But she lost against someone who was not only corrupt, deceitful, racist, and misogynist to a degree we've never seen in a major candidate, but reveled in those qualities. Clinton, for all her flaws, was miles and miles a better candidate and person, and her loss says less about her than the voting public.
If she lost to Jeb!, Rubio, even Cruz, there'd be a better base for the "We just need better candidates" argument. But her loss to Trump speaks to ugly, ugly social beliefs about (A) women and our proper place, and (B) what anyone is allowed to say about race and equality. Because in a world without those effects, that shitheel would've lost to a dustbin.
In that context, we have two options:
(1) Pander to those forces and put forward the white dude.
(2) If presented with a candidate who is qualified but might fall victim to them, vigorously fight against the narratives constructed by those forces. Not deny that such narratives were constructed, and certainly not buy into them and perpetuate them.
Unfortunately, when many on the left were denied the first option, they denied that any narrative was ever a narrative--and worse, bought into and perpetuated it. So many people I know on the left think her email server was hacked, and wouldn't have been if run through the State Department--when the exact opposite happened. Who deny interference from Russia in online election chatter, despite the number of security agencies affirming it's the case. Who claim Benghazi was because she personally cut security budgets, when it was the responsibility of a Republican Congress. And on and on.
I think that not enough effort was made to push against these things. I think that's because these lies fed into our pre-existing notion of who she is. Which itself was deliberately constructed decades ago by people who hated the idea of women in politics, and successfully perpetuated because it fit what our society tells us is characteristic of women seeking power.
Lest it be misconstrued, I'm not saying "Trump is the Left's fault." Obviously, Trump is the fault of our fucking gross sexist, misogynist society. I am saying that those who identify as progressive too often forget they themselves are a product of said society, and have blind spots towards how that affects them.
posted by Anonymous at 6:09 AM on November 10, 2016
That's one (nationalist-essentialist) way of looking at it; another could be “Well, they're here, they speak Russian but embrace democracy, human rights and pluralism; proof that Another Russia Is Possible”
As HH the Dalai Lama says: "Yes, I suppose it could be possible".
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:09 AM on November 10, 2016
As HH the Dalai Lama says: "Yes, I suppose it could be possible".
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:09 AM on November 10, 2016
Is there any chance the electoral college will turn faithless in Dec?
No. Zero chance. No matter how widely disliked Trump and Clinton may be, their electors are chosen from the party faithful and there are only a few hundred of them. If they could fill Trump tower with people giddy with joy over the fact that Donald Fucking Trump will be in charge of nuclear weapons, they can find 270 to cast binding votes for him.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
No. Zero chance. No matter how widely disliked Trump and Clinton may be, their electors are chosen from the party faithful and there are only a few hundred of them. If they could fill Trump tower with people giddy with joy over the fact that Donald Fucking Trump will be in charge of nuclear weapons, they can find 270 to cast binding votes for him.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
One problem, Democrats don't get off the couch to vote FOR abortion as an issue, Republicans do - in droves. Anyone inspired by that already had her vote.
Well maybe they should. Maybe, for once, the conversation shouldn't be "what groups can we marginalize or ignore to win the votes of white men," but rather "how do we win with an actual coalition of the groups that need our help."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Well maybe they should. Maybe, for once, the conversation shouldn't be "what groups can we marginalize or ignore to win the votes of white men," but rather "how do we win with an actual coalition of the groups that need our help."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
boy guys, I'm not a Nate-Silver-is-Jesus person, but before 11/8 people shat on him for not being gung-ho about predicting a Clinton win, and now we're going to shit on him for being too gung-ho? Can we not?
posted by Anonymous at 6:12 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 6:12 AM on November 10, 2016
We are not watching The End Of America As A Nation, we are watching America returning to one of its baseline positions.
This time, it really is different. It happened here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
This time, it really is different. It happened here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Reposting in the new thread:
Folks, this presidency and the national GOP party will be an utter disaster that will echo terrible effects into the next 50 years at least.
I am currently ensuring that everything I personally learned and all the experiences I had through this this past episodic emergence of ever so slightly higher ideals and aspirations is somehow saved for the next one that comes along, so they at least know who it was we were, and can maybe start with a little bit more insight than we did growing up.
Can we can be stalwarts and protect the progress we've all made for so many people in the past 8 years? I don't know man, but I'm not feeling it. We are entering a regressive and suppressive age from what I see and feel.
And if you're a trans woman, get cis pretty. Fast.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Folks, this presidency and the national GOP party will be an utter disaster that will echo terrible effects into the next 50 years at least.
I am currently ensuring that everything I personally learned and all the experiences I had through this this past episodic emergence of ever so slightly higher ideals and aspirations is somehow saved for the next one that comes along, so they at least know who it was we were, and can maybe start with a little bit more insight than we did growing up.
Can we can be stalwarts and protect the progress we've all made for so many people in the past 8 years? I don't know man, but I'm not feeling it. We are entering a regressive and suppressive age from what I see and feel.
And if you're a trans woman, get cis pretty. Fast.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
What hit me around 4:00 this morning was - Trump was right about what to do in his campaign. He concentrated on the states that made the difference, and that he was able to win. He spent 7% of what the Democrats did; he ignored the "conventional wisdom", he repeatedly put his foot in his mouth and was caught doing stuff that would have sunk Hillary in no time, and he still managed to win. Without much support from "his" party. Despite all that, despite the huge amount of money and intelligence that the Democrats put into their race.
I don't know if that's an insight, or just insomnia craziness.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 6:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know if that's an insight, or just insomnia craziness.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 6:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
boy guys, I'm not a Nate-Silver-is-Jesus person, but before 11/8 people shat on him for not being gung-ho about predicting a Clinton win, and now we're going to shit on him for being too gung-ho? Can we not?
Dude is getting the hate of half the nation for doing statistical analysis that we didn't like, yeah. And maybe his models were crap and we should criticize them for being crap. Or maybe we should criticize him for not being more open about his models and methodology. Those things could arguably be fair.
But first we yelled at him for not catering to our precious confirmation bias. Now we're yelling at him for not tearing it down for us. That's unfair to him, and recriminations are not the way forward. We have work to do.
This is the America we live in now. It's time to accept that and start taking steps to change it, and yelling at Nate Silver isn't one of those steps. We can fight each other, or we can fight what happened. We can't do both.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Dude is getting the hate of half the nation for doing statistical analysis that we didn't like, yeah. And maybe his models were crap and we should criticize them for being crap. Or maybe we should criticize him for not being more open about his models and methodology. Those things could arguably be fair.
But first we yelled at him for not catering to our precious confirmation bias. Now we're yelling at him for not tearing it down for us. That's unfair to him, and recriminations are not the way forward. We have work to do.
This is the America we live in now. It's time to accept that and start taking steps to change it, and yelling at Nate Silver isn't one of those steps. We can fight each other, or we can fight what happened. We can't do both.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
So I just cried yesterday. I couldn't watch the concession speech, and just burst into tears reading her final email. So today I called the PA Dems to ask about volunteer opportunities in Philadelphia. Fuck this noise of feeling sorry for myself. I am white, cis female, hetero, married, healthy, gainfully employed and have nothing to worry about in comparison to more vulnerable communities. So I'm going to use all my privileges to fight like hell. I have never donated to a campaign before, or volunteered - but I did for Hillary and I will again until the universe makes any kind of sense again.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 6:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 6:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
Well maybe they should. Maybe, for once, the conversation shouldn't be "what groups can we marginalize or ignore to win the votes of white men," but rather "how do we win with an actual coalition of the groups that need our help."
I think this could've been done if more time had been spent on what Democrats could do for the country rather than what they weren't doing enough of already.
So many people complained they weren't seeing change fast enough and jumped to "so it's the Democrats' fault" because the President was one--even though he's spent six years with an openly obstructionist opposition Congress.
One thing I'll give the Right: they know how to sell promises. They can hold all the power, use it to completely fuck the country over, and convince voters that all their dreams will come true if they get elected again. For better or for worse, the progressive tendency to prefer on the perfect over the good often results in a circular firing squad.
posted by Anonymous at 6:22 AM on November 10, 2016
I think this could've been done if more time had been spent on what Democrats could do for the country rather than what they weren't doing enough of already.
So many people complained they weren't seeing change fast enough and jumped to "so it's the Democrats' fault" because the President was one--even though he's spent six years with an openly obstructionist opposition Congress.
One thing I'll give the Right: they know how to sell promises. They can hold all the power, use it to completely fuck the country over, and convince voters that all their dreams will come true if they get elected again. For better or for worse, the progressive tendency to prefer on the perfect over the good often results in a circular firing squad.
posted by Anonymous at 6:22 AM on November 10, 2016
This happened today at Royal Oak Middle School in Royal Oak Michigan. It is so sad. Latino children were crying.
The taunts, the "Build that Wall" with such bullying power and hate from children to children. Just Horrifying!
VICTORY KLAVALKADE KLAN PARADE DEC 3RD 2016 NORTH CAROLINA [archive.is but still nsfw and tw]
time to organize tar and feather squads... spouting diversity garbage [tw]
"Shouldn't you sit in the back of the bus today?"
Jesus Christ. What have we done.
posted by Talez at 6:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [77 favorites]
The taunts, the "Build that Wall" with such bullying power and hate from children to children. Just Horrifying!
VICTORY KLAVALKADE KLAN PARADE DEC 3RD 2016 NORTH CAROLINA [archive.is but still nsfw and tw]
time to organize tar and feather squads... spouting diversity garbage [tw]
"Shouldn't you sit in the back of the bus today?"
Jesus Christ. What have we done.
posted by Talez at 6:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [77 favorites]
So -- in the 36 hours or so since it became apparent to me that Trump would be the next Prez, I haven't really had a single moment where I felt the inclination to downplay the impact or to look for positives. This is Just Bad. It is fascism, whether born out of desperation or malice or ignorance or bigotry or whatever, and for the first time in my life I feel it is natural and reasonable to draw parallels with the demise of Weimar and the 1930s.
And from there -- and to me this is stunning and frankly bizarre -- it becomes natural and reasonable to imagine the absolute worst and beyond, including WW3. We might differ on the likelihood of that happening -- I happen to believe it is still a rather remote possibility -- but it is a real possibility nevertheless.
There is only one thing that stands out about these elections that gives me pause (if not relief) when compared to the 1930s. There is no violence. Despite Trump's thinly veiled exhortations towards voter intimidation and the increasingly brash militia, the elections have been peaceful. In the spirit of Mrs.Pterodactyl's comments above, perhaps that does warrant a glimmer of hope.
posted by dmh at 6:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
And from there -- and to me this is stunning and frankly bizarre -- it becomes natural and reasonable to imagine the absolute worst and beyond, including WW3. We might differ on the likelihood of that happening -- I happen to believe it is still a rather remote possibility -- but it is a real possibility nevertheless.
There is only one thing that stands out about these elections that gives me pause (if not relief) when compared to the 1930s. There is no violence. Despite Trump's thinly veiled exhortations towards voter intimidation and the increasingly brash militia, the elections have been peaceful. In the spirit of Mrs.Pterodactyl's comments above, perhaps that does warrant a glimmer of hope.
posted by dmh at 6:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've been listening to A Prairie Home Companion for as long as I can remember, so I don't say this lightly: Fuck Garrison Keillor. "I'm a rich white guy, I'll be fine, LOL"
Wow. Satire (or comprehension of it) is apparently dead.
posted by aught at 6:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wow. Satire (or comprehension of it) is apparently dead.
posted by aught at 6:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is no violence.
Umm, look two posts up.
posted by acb at 6:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Umm, look two posts up.
posted by acb at 6:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
On election day but well before the polls closed, I had two really homophobic/transphobic interactions with young men, one of which was one of them saying to me/his buddies - as I walked along with a cis male companion, which normally has a protective aspect, "What the fuck is that?" He said it so hatefully, and I would have been really worried if I were alone. In the past year, I've had a couple of really scary interactions with men, one in which I basically escaped being attacked because I was far enough away that the guy's girlfriend convinced him that I was actually a cis man. I could hear her hollering at him, "That's a dude" from down the otherwise empty train platform to dissuade him from jumping me.
It really wasn't until this year that I was afraid. I've been pretty surprised by it, because on the left there is this narrative that if you are a white butch or masculine spectrum person the world is your oyster and any complaints you make are just self-interested lies. But I think right now I have actual reason to be afraid for my physical safety.
I add that these negative interactions have not been only or mostly with white men, either. I don't think there's a "safe" group of cis straight men out there.
posted by Frowner at 6:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
It really wasn't until this year that I was afraid. I've been pretty surprised by it, because on the left there is this narrative that if you are a white butch or masculine spectrum person the world is your oyster and any complaints you make are just self-interested lies. But I think right now I have actual reason to be afraid for my physical safety.
I add that these negative interactions have not been only or mostly with white men, either. I don't think there's a "safe" group of cis straight men out there.
posted by Frowner at 6:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
Is Nate Silver our friend or something? People can grumble about him all they want, the dude is a remora to the media and has a plenty comfortable life that is in no particular danger. What on earth could be wrong with talking shit about him?
People are talking like he bears responsibility for this for calculating percentages they didn't like. He doesn't. People can grumble about whoever they like, sure, but I'd personally prefer that they keep their criticisms substantive, and I'd prefer even more that we keep our ire focused on real problems.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
People are talking like he bears responsibility for this for calculating percentages they didn't like. He doesn't. People can grumble about whoever they like, sure, but I'd personally prefer that they keep their criticisms substantive, and I'd prefer even more that we keep our ire focused on real problems.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
On the weird plus side with the GOP in charge of everything they may less of a need to be so hyper partisan just for the sake of it. They'll have to get back to the business of government with no excuses. Trump is a heart something of a conman who is full of shit, who will compromise when its beneficial which is kind of preferable to a fervent true believer in anything. I'm more worried about Pence and Cruz.
posted by Damienmce at 6:33 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Damienmce at 6:33 AM on November 10, 2016
My mom just texted me don't wear the hijab please
Are you scared now [tw: sexual assault]
Trump supporter assaulted [tw: violence]
Blackface at U of Oregon
Developing: At least 8 trans youth have committed suicide in the wake of Trump's win, according to a private support group.
Trans Life Line is a suicide hotline run and operated by trans people for trans people.
300 [the amount they've received] is the most they've ever received in 24hrs
1. At York Tech High School in PA white students literally walked down the hall chanting "white power" while holding Donald Trump signs. [tw: racism] THIS IS THE START OF A FUCKING LIST.
Fuck this whole thing. Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck it. FUCK IT.
posted by Talez at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [105 favorites]
Are you scared now [tw: sexual assault]
![Are you scared now [tw: sexual assault]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw2bC1vUUAAWxyd.jpg:large){kind=link}
Trump supporter assaulted [tw: violence]
Blackface at U of Oregon
Developing: At least 8 trans youth have committed suicide in the wake of Trump's win, according to a private support group.
Trans Life Line is a suicide hotline run and operated by trans people for trans people.
300 [the amount they've received] is the most they've ever received in 24hrs
1. At York Tech High School in PA white students literally walked down the hall chanting "white power" while holding Donald Trump signs. [tw: racism] THIS IS THE START OF A FUCKING LIST.
Fuck this whole thing. Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck it. FUCK IT.
posted by Talez at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [105 favorites]
What on earth could be wrong with talking shit about him?
. . . Because it's hypocritical shit-talking? Because the energy spent on blaming those not at fault is more properly spent on blaming those who are? Because when we indulge in counter-factual shitfests we perpetuate the larger trend of confusing feelings and reality?
posted by Anonymous at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016
. . . Because it's hypocritical shit-talking? Because the energy spent on blaming those not at fault is more properly spent on blaming those who are? Because when we indulge in counter-factual shitfests we perpetuate the larger trend of confusing feelings and reality?
posted by Anonymous at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016
The Republicans run on a platform of prideful ignorance, while the Democrats run as the clever know-it-alls, yet election after election, those embracing ignorance out smart the know-it-alls who end up fighting among themselves to see what or who they should sacrifice next.
I don't know what country you're commenting from, but as someone who went to public high school in the U.S. I recognize the dynamic all too well. All those ignorant, tedious assholes I was glad to never see again after I went off to college... are still out there, living their shitty lives with shitty opinions about everything. And a lot more of them voted this week than usual.
posted by aught at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I don't know what country you're commenting from, but as someone who went to public high school in the U.S. I recognize the dynamic all too well. All those ignorant, tedious assholes I was glad to never see again after I went off to college... are still out there, living their shitty lives with shitty opinions about everything. And a lot more of them voted this week than usual.
posted by aught at 6:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I add that these negative interactions have not been only or mostly with white men, either. I don't think there's a "safe" group of cis straight men out there.
To clarify - I think hateful behavior can come from any straight cis man, unfortunately, not just the white ones.
posted by Frowner at 6:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
To clarify - I think hateful behavior can come from any straight cis man, unfortunately, not just the white ones.
posted by Frowner at 6:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Someone on the bus grabbed my... " It's what Trump said he does and he was elected President." [tw: sexual assault]
THIS IS NOT OK.
posted by Talez at 6:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
THIS IS NOT OK.
posted by Talez at 6:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
You Did This, America: Sarah Palin Being Considered for Cabinet
You remember Sarah Palin -- she was the one who used private email.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
You remember Sarah Palin -- she was the one who used private email.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
I'll try to find an actual link but word from my connections to what's happening at the climate change talks in Marrakech is that they're dealing with new evidence that the globe has 4 years to peak omissions. Lovely thing about climate science right now is that it seems to consistently be too conservative.
4 years and then that's about it.
I'm really not sure how to process the gravity without just wanting to scream and have my brain shut down in some sort of denial. I get the urge to just kinda ignore it, I really do.
I also get that with what just happened the need and desire to look back on history and find comfort in 'we went through this before, we will survive this'
Thing is and I implore people at least get this into their base understanding of the larger context is that, the US and the entire globe is now in an era where none of us 'has gone through this before'.
This time around the broader context is really, really different. I'm not suggesting that it means not surviving. I'm suggesting that this understanding really needs to inform 'we've been through this before' type thinking. No, you haven't.
posted by Jalliah at 6:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
4 years and then that's about it.
I'm really not sure how to process the gravity without just wanting to scream and have my brain shut down in some sort of denial. I get the urge to just kinda ignore it, I really do.
I also get that with what just happened the need and desire to look back on history and find comfort in 'we went through this before, we will survive this'
Thing is and I implore people at least get this into their base understanding of the larger context is that, the US and the entire globe is now in an era where none of us 'has gone through this before'.
This time around the broader context is really, really different. I'm not suggesting that it means not surviving. I'm suggesting that this understanding really needs to inform 'we've been through this before' type thinking. No, you haven't.
posted by Jalliah at 6:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
THIS IS NOT OK.
There will never be “OK” after 11/9/2016.
something something Adorno something poetry the Holocaust
posted by acb at 6:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
There will never be “OK” after 11/9/2016.
something something Adorno something poetry the Holocaust
posted by acb at 6:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
@pgrrrls: Please cease with the white privilege bullshit of "good art will come out of this"
One problem with this snap back is most of the calls for art I have seen on my twitter feed and elsewhere have actually come from POC and LGBT artists.
(I recognize that as a white, middle-aged, lapsed poet I am not actually the one they're tweeting / soliciting for oppositional art, but these calls sure as hell have nothing to do with white privilege, and I think the logic is more like "Good art will help fight evil," not "We can get some good art out of others' misfortune.")
posted by aught at 6:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
One problem with this snap back is most of the calls for art I have seen on my twitter feed and elsewhere have actually come from POC and LGBT artists.
(I recognize that as a white, middle-aged, lapsed poet I am not actually the one they're tweeting / soliciting for oppositional art, but these calls sure as hell have nothing to do with white privilege, and I think the logic is more like "Good art will help fight evil," not "We can get some good art out of others' misfortune.")
posted by aught at 6:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
something something Adorno something poetry the Holocaust
afraid I don't know what this means, care to explain?
posted by thelonius at 6:40 AM on November 10, 2016
afraid I don't know what this means, care to explain?
posted by thelonius at 6:40 AM on November 10, 2016
4 years and then that's about it.
Maybe the Peter Thiels of this world can have genetic modifications enabling them to breathe methane or something. Everything's gonna be just fine, for the people who matter.
posted by acb at 6:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe the Peter Thiels of this world can have genetic modifications enabling them to breathe methane or something. Everything's gonna be just fine, for the people who matter.
posted by acb at 6:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
afraid I don't know what this means, care to explain?
"Writing poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric"
posted by Talez at 6:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Writing poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric"
posted by Talez at 6:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Their support of free trade is "probably the biggest reason Trump won" in the same way that their support of civil rights for non-whites is "probably the biggest reason Trump won"
Please don't compare opposition to free trade to opposition to civil rights.
posted by Beholder at 6:43 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Please don't compare opposition to free trade to opposition to civil rights.
posted by Beholder at 6:43 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been very curious what will happen next year if (when) the United States fails to raise its borrowing limit and begins defaulting on its debts. Has anyone come across good analysis of the likely economic consequences?
Have the majority of Republicans ever cared about the borrowing limit when there is a Republican president?
posted by drezdn at 6:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Writing poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric"
Alternately, "the fact that great art has been made in reaction to the Holocaust does not constitute a 'silver lining' to the Holocaust."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
Alternately, "the fact that great art has been made in reaction to the Holocaust does not constitute a 'silver lining' to the Holocaust."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
Bernie and Bloomberg could have ran their own independent campaigns and Trump/Cinton would have been relegated to 3rd and 4th choices.
This doesn't seem right?
If you are not willing to give up a generation to create true democracy in this country you deserve fascism.
Well this might be the worst thing I've ever heard! Jesus Christ you want to sacrifice an entire generation of human people to your ideals? You think the fact that I don't means I deserve fascism? Holy fuck!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
This doesn't seem right?
If you are not willing to give up a generation to create true democracy in this country you deserve fascism.
Well this might be the worst thing I've ever heard! Jesus Christ you want to sacrifice an entire generation of human people to your ideals? You think the fact that I don't means I deserve fascism? Holy fuck!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [84 favorites]
For what it's worth, on grieving. I was talking with my husband about how I keep cycling between anger and grief and despair. And the 'well-meaning' people in my life - people I believe to be genuinely good people (or did)- who voted for Trump are now trying to tell me that everything will be okay. And how hard it is for me to even be civil with them.
He said there's a reason that in Judaism, after a death, shiva lasts for 7 days. That different people react to loss differently. Some people cope fine for the first couple of days and then collapse, others start out despondent and then find a place of acceptance. And some people cycle between them. That grieving takes time, and the understanding and wisdom that comes from losing someone or something important to you takes time, and it's not human to expect to just move on from it right away. That to some extent in our culture we value the idea that you hit the ground running, that you brush yourself off and take what's in front of you and deal with it as productively as possible, and that's how you cope. And that works for some people. But for a lot of people, that's just asking too much. And for many, the decisions you make when the wound is still fresh are coming from such an emotional place that they do more harm than good.
He suggested I treat this less like an awful event and more like a death. To take the full shiva week to have my feelings and not feel obligated to move on in any way - productively or socially. So I'm at work (I definitely don't have the luxury to actually sit at home and mope) but I'm letting myself feel sad and scared and betrayed. And I know I will take steps to help fight for what I think is right. But it's really helping me to think of taking some time to process not as a sign of insufficient rage or motivation, and more as a self-healing moment to gather the strength I will need for later.
posted by Mchelly at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [91 favorites]
He said there's a reason that in Judaism, after a death, shiva lasts for 7 days. That different people react to loss differently. Some people cope fine for the first couple of days and then collapse, others start out despondent and then find a place of acceptance. And some people cycle between them. That grieving takes time, and the understanding and wisdom that comes from losing someone or something important to you takes time, and it's not human to expect to just move on from it right away. That to some extent in our culture we value the idea that you hit the ground running, that you brush yourself off and take what's in front of you and deal with it as productively as possible, and that's how you cope. And that works for some people. But for a lot of people, that's just asking too much. And for many, the decisions you make when the wound is still fresh are coming from such an emotional place that they do more harm than good.
He suggested I treat this less like an awful event and more like a death. To take the full shiva week to have my feelings and not feel obligated to move on in any way - productively or socially. So I'm at work (I definitely don't have the luxury to actually sit at home and mope) but I'm letting myself feel sad and scared and betrayed. And I know I will take steps to help fight for what I think is right. But it's really helping me to think of taking some time to process not as a sign of insufficient rage or motivation, and more as a self-healing moment to gather the strength I will need for later.
posted by Mchelly at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [91 favorites]
I keep thinking about the great art made by LGBTQIA people in the '80s, and then I think about how many of those people survived their 30s. Art can be a great form of protest, but it cannot be the only form of protest.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 6:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
I keep thinking about the great art made by LGBTQIA people in the '80s, and then I think about how many of those people survived their 30s. Art can be a great form of protest, but it cannot be the only form of protest.
Also, as a form of protest it achieves little against the oppressor. John Heartfield, for all his work, did nothing to slow the rise of Nazism even for a moment.
posted by acb at 6:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also, as a form of protest it achieves little against the oppressor. John Heartfield, for all his work, did nothing to slow the rise of Nazism even for a moment.
posted by acb at 6:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
One thing that’s getting me through today is remembering that @FLOTUS used steel reinforcements to anchor her White House garden in place. (twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
Is there any chance the electoral college will turn faithless in Dec?
posted by slipthought at 9:08 AM on November 10 [1 favorite +] [!]
Even if we tried to turn electors and it worked (and it would probably not, I imagine many, even if queasy about Trump, believe in sacred trusts and so on), if we burned that bridge, we would never have a sane election again, because the Republicans would use the precedent to invalidate every future Democratic winner in a close race.
posted by aught at 6:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by slipthought at 9:08 AM on November 10 [1 favorite +] [!]
Even if we tried to turn electors and it worked (and it would probably not, I imagine many, even if queasy about Trump, believe in sacred trusts and so on), if we burned that bridge, we would never have a sane election again, because the Republicans would use the precedent to invalidate every future Democratic winner in a close race.
posted by aught at 6:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The GOP Congress has been holding their foot on the neck of government since they took over in 2011.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=9Jbl
real Federal spending annual growth %
Expect a trillion dollar defense budget this decade
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=9Jbo
real (2009 dollars) defense spending
tax cuts via the flat tax
tax-free repatriation of corporate $$$ held overseas
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/20/us-companies-are-hoarding-2-and-a-half-trillion-dollars-in-cash-overseas.html
another real estate bubble
wage inflation
I have no guess which way the dollar is going. #MAGA means a strong dollar, but the meaning of his words require a weak dollar.
At any rate, if the GOP discovers MMT we're well and truly screwed.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=9Jbl
real Federal spending annual growth %
Expect a trillion dollar defense budget this decade
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=9Jbo
real (2009 dollars) defense spending
tax cuts via the flat tax
tax-free repatriation of corporate $$$ held overseas
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/20/us-companies-are-hoarding-2-and-a-half-trillion-dollars-in-cash-overseas.html
another real estate bubble
wage inflation
I have no guess which way the dollar is going. #MAGA means a strong dollar, but the meaning of his words require a weak dollar.
At any rate, if the GOP discovers MMT we're well and truly screwed.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I remember Reagan.
Oh I remember Reagan too. We were all terrified of him because he was such a loose-cannon cowboy. What we didn't remember was that before he entered politics he had been a corporate spokesman, and he remembered who he worked for. Those people were evil and greedy and selfish but they did not want to burn the country completely down. They realized nuclear war would be bad for business. They even realized it was necessary to use taxes to raise revenue to keep the government running, because as annoying as it could sometimes be a functional government was also good for business.
And I remember W. We were all terrified of what he might do because he was clearly such an idiot. What if he got the nuclear football and started asking "What does this do?" What we didn't realize was that he was a small, weak man in the thrall of a group of operatives who were really much smarter than him. They were nasty, evil, and had dreams of empire, but they did at least have a plan even if it was a terrible plan that blew up in the end. Those people didn't want to burn the country down because they wanted it to become the foundation of a new Roman empire.
And now we have Trump. He is beholden to nobody, he doesn't take advice or listen to anyone else. He is a walking monument to Dunning-Kruger syndrome and seems to always be quite certain he is the smartest person in the room regardless of who else is there. He knows nothing of world affairs, history, or anything else that he hasn't exploited to try and make a buck. He wants everything he does to be the biggest, most flamboyant, most memorable spectacle to his own ego possible. He is everything we thought Reagan and W were, squared and sprayed with gold paint.
Of the many worries I have, I suppose the biggest is what happens when there is another embassy bombing or Bob help us 9/11 style attack, and President Trump tells the generals "fuck you, I'm the President and I say we nuke them." Because I have no doubt that's exactly what he will do. Second biggest is never big enough for Donald. Holding back is not his style. He will insist on letting the world know that Trump does not fuck around. Re-watch the first season West Wing episode A Proportional Response and imagine Trump sitting in Bartlett's chair.
What then do the generals do? I have a few ideas. None of them end with nukes being launched but none of them end up looking much like America as we know it any more either.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [71 favorites]
Oh I remember Reagan too. We were all terrified of him because he was such a loose-cannon cowboy. What we didn't remember was that before he entered politics he had been a corporate spokesman, and he remembered who he worked for. Those people were evil and greedy and selfish but they did not want to burn the country completely down. They realized nuclear war would be bad for business. They even realized it was necessary to use taxes to raise revenue to keep the government running, because as annoying as it could sometimes be a functional government was also good for business.
And I remember W. We were all terrified of what he might do because he was clearly such an idiot. What if he got the nuclear football and started asking "What does this do?" What we didn't realize was that he was a small, weak man in the thrall of a group of operatives who were really much smarter than him. They were nasty, evil, and had dreams of empire, but they did at least have a plan even if it was a terrible plan that blew up in the end. Those people didn't want to burn the country down because they wanted it to become the foundation of a new Roman empire.
And now we have Trump. He is beholden to nobody, he doesn't take advice or listen to anyone else. He is a walking monument to Dunning-Kruger syndrome and seems to always be quite certain he is the smartest person in the room regardless of who else is there. He knows nothing of world affairs, history, or anything else that he hasn't exploited to try and make a buck. He wants everything he does to be the biggest, most flamboyant, most memorable spectacle to his own ego possible. He is everything we thought Reagan and W were, squared and sprayed with gold paint.
Of the many worries I have, I suppose the biggest is what happens when there is another embassy bombing or Bob help us 9/11 style attack, and President Trump tells the generals "fuck you, I'm the President and I say we nuke them." Because I have no doubt that's exactly what he will do. Second biggest is never big enough for Donald. Holding back is not his style. He will insist on letting the world know that Trump does not fuck around. Re-watch the first season West Wing episode A Proportional Response and imagine Trump sitting in Bartlett's chair.
What then do the generals do? I have a few ideas. None of them end with nukes being launched but none of them end up looking much like America as we know it any more either.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [71 favorites]
One thing that’s getting me through today is remembering that @FLOTUS used steel reinforcements to anchor her White House garden in place.
That'll slow the bulldozers down for a little bit. :(
posted by drezdn at 6:52 AM on November 10, 2016
Chris Hayes is just baiting Kellyanne now. I do very much admire the press at MSNBC.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
There were a couple/three R electors who were anti-Trump, but, yeah, going that route isn't a pleasant thing to imagine either. You'd have to burn the bridge as you go essentially.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:52 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by gusottertrout at 6:52 AM on November 10, 2016
Avoiding the Circular Firing Squad, from Lawyers, Guns and Money.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does anyone know where Hillary is or how she's doing? I'm hoping she's safe. Given how Trump supporters are behaving towards those who are unlike them, I am scared for her.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 6:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm hoping she's safe.
I'm hoping her and Bill (and maybe even Chelsea) have a plan for getting out of the country in 24 hours if the shit hits the fan.
posted by drezdn at 6:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm hoping her and Bill (and maybe even Chelsea) have a plan for getting out of the country in 24 hours if the shit hits the fan.
posted by drezdn at 6:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does anyone know where Hillary is or how she's doing? I'm hoping she's safe. Given how Trump supporters are behaving towards those who are unlike them, I am scared for her.
She will have protection.
posted by Jalliah at 6:57 AM on November 10, 2016
She will have protection.
posted by Jalliah at 6:57 AM on November 10, 2016
My partner is early in the probationary period (less than 3 weeks into his 90 days) for a union job in a Detroit hospital system. A large portion of his coworkers are smug asshole white dudes, who have been reveling in sending mean misogynist 'jokes' to each other since the election. They assume he agrees, because he had been relatively quiet until he got into the union - kept his head down, did the work, went home.
That shit ended yesterday. He told those dudes to get that shit out of his face. He said, after he came home, 'If that's what it takes to get a union job, I can't do it.' He is now actively reaching out to his female and PoC co-workers, because their workplace is not safer or better when he keeps his head down, not when the assholes are so loud and have such power.
He is not a political fellow by nature. It was easier to keep silent when he thought Trump was a guaranteed loser. It was easier to just talk football, just talk kids, just talk music - anything but politics with these people who hold power over his work life. It is not easier any more.
posted by palindromic at 6:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [95 favorites]
That shit ended yesterday. He told those dudes to get that shit out of his face. He said, after he came home, 'If that's what it takes to get a union job, I can't do it.' He is now actively reaching out to his female and PoC co-workers, because their workplace is not safer or better when he keeps his head down, not when the assholes are so loud and have such power.
He is not a political fellow by nature. It was easier to keep silent when he thought Trump was a guaranteed loser. It was easier to just talk football, just talk kids, just talk music - anything but politics with these people who hold power over his work life. It is not easier any more.
posted by palindromic at 6:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [95 favorites]
there any chance the electoral college will turn faithless in Dec?
Not with everyone already giving him the keys.
posted by corb at 6:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not with everyone already giving him the keys.
posted by corb at 6:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
HRC and Bill have had continuous Secret Service protection since Bill left office and will for the rest of their lives.
posted by muddgirl at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm kind of curious how much the Republican leadership actively were worried about Trump's actions, or if it could have been a work, to make him look more like an outsider.
posted by drezdn at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know that people need to vent, but I find the protests a bit pointless. What's the concrete goal there? It's not like Trump will decide to step down in the face of protests.
Maybe the protests would make more sense to me if they focused on some specific change, like getting rid of the electoral college. It seems to me that for people who don't already hate Trump (assuming that those are the intended audience), "our candidate won, but the system is unfair" would be a more effective message than "our candidate lost, but we don't like the winner." The former is highlighting a genuinely unfair electoral system, but the latter just sounds like the protesters are being sore losers.
posted by klausness at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe the protests would make more sense to me if they focused on some specific change, like getting rid of the electoral college. It seems to me that for people who don't already hate Trump (assuming that those are the intended audience), "our candidate won, but the system is unfair" would be a more effective message than "our candidate lost, but we don't like the winner." The former is highlighting a genuinely unfair electoral system, but the latter just sounds like the protesters are being sore losers.
posted by klausness at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
and trump? - i have no idea what he's going to do
the worst part is, neither does he
I suspect he knows exactly what he's going to do...parade around state dinners with his wife, emboss "President Trump" on everything he can, and wrap the Lincoln Bedroom in gold.
And let Pence actually do all the work.
posted by HighLife at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
the worst part is, neither does he
I suspect he knows exactly what he's going to do...parade around state dinners with his wife, emboss "President Trump" on everything he can, and wrap the Lincoln Bedroom in gold.
And let Pence actually do all the work.
posted by HighLife at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's entirely possible that Trump's DOJ will try to put her on trial.
posted by drezdn at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by drezdn at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also today I was walking my son to school in the morning and some white guy stared me in the eye and said "Good morning, President Trump!" in a really loud voice. Only to me. We're pretty clearly Jewish (my son was wearing a kippah and his school jacket has Hebrew on the logo), but I don't know if this was a Trump voter doing it to put me in my place, or an angry liberal deciding that since I'm Orthodox we must have voted for Trump and he wanted me to know he was angry. Or whether he's saying it to random people and (lucky us) he chose me.
I told my kid he was a random weirdo. But that uncertainty has just enough fear underneath it to make me really creeped out.
posted by Mchelly at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
I told my kid he was a random weirdo. But that uncertainty has just enough fear underneath it to make me really creeped out.
posted by Mchelly at 7:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
What's the concrete goal there?
To tell women, minorities, immigrants, and LGBT people that there are people out there that don't support this countries new "mandate."
posted by drezdn at 7:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
To tell women, minorities, immigrants, and LGBT people that there are people out there that don't support this countries new "mandate."
posted by drezdn at 7:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
I'm feeling a lot better about the Clinton loss now. She won the popular and came within 1% of winning four major states that she lost. While it still sucks to have Trump as President, her near win means the things she was fighting for are very palatable to the American populace.
Time to learn from the mistakes and put together a plan for 2018. Hopefully the DNC cleans house and doubles down on reaching out to people of all classes and stripes, while holding firm on protecting the disadvantaged and minorities.
Th key lesson I'm taking from all this is that you have work to make sure that the populace is fed and taken care of as you advance the rights of minorities. This is absolutely critical and its where the Dems let themselves be outflanked by the Republicans.
This loss sucks, it hurts and it's going to hurt a lot more. But all is not lost and there's a clear opportunity here for 2020, which is critical for redrawing the map to get rid the safe districts Republicans drew in 2010.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [55 favorites]
Time to learn from the mistakes and put together a plan for 2018. Hopefully the DNC cleans house and doubles down on reaching out to people of all classes and stripes, while holding firm on protecting the disadvantaged and minorities.
Th key lesson I'm taking from all this is that you have work to make sure that the populace is fed and taken care of as you advance the rights of minorities. This is absolutely critical and its where the Dems let themselves be outflanked by the Republicans.
This loss sucks, it hurts and it's going to hurt a lot more. But all is not lost and there's a clear opportunity here for 2020, which is critical for redrawing the map to get rid the safe districts Republicans drew in 2010.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [55 favorites]
I know that people need to vent, but I find the protests a bit pointless. What's the concrete goal there?
That was my initial reaction as well. But in a news clip on NPR this morning, one protestor interviewed said he wanted to show the world that not all Americans support Trump. So I had to admit, yeah, that's a concrete goal which the protests might achieve. (You could also point to the 65M+ people who voted for someone other than Trump, but that doesn't necessarily get across the depth of anger and disgust at Trump the way protests do.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
That was my initial reaction as well. But in a news clip on NPR this morning, one protestor interviewed said he wanted to show the world that not all Americans support Trump. So I had to admit, yeah, that's a concrete goal which the protests might achieve. (You could also point to the 65M+ people who voted for someone other than Trump, but that doesn't necessarily get across the depth of anger and disgust at Trump the way protests do.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
What's the concrete goal there?
"He's here. He'll get no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me beg."
"My you chivalric fool... as if the way one fell down mattered."
"When the fall is all there is, it matters."
posted by Etrigan at 7:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
"He's here. He'll get no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me beg."
"My you chivalric fool... as if the way one fell down mattered."
"When the fall is all there is, it matters."
posted by Etrigan at 7:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
Muslim Ban Vanishes From Trump’s Website
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
That was my initial reaction as well. But in a news clip on NPR this morning, one protestor interviewed said he wanted to show the world that not all Americans support Trump. So I had to admit, yeah, that's a concrete goal which the protests might achieve.
I think also bringing solace to your friends and neighbors in the area (and others around the country) by showing them that you're willing to take action and fight for them. Hopefully knowing that there are people who care enough to march will make those who are scared feel at least a little bit safer.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
I think also bringing solace to your friends and neighbors in the area (and others around the country) by showing them that you're willing to take action and fight for them. Hopefully knowing that there are people who care enough to march will make those who are scared feel at least a little bit safer.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Given the panicked call I got last night from our financial adviser down in GA, who is a neverTrump Republican, that pretty much stated "we have no idea what's going to happen if he fucks with China, no one does, holy shit" I found myself just unloading all my "don't you Republicans aspire to protect corporate interests? If he crashes the world fucking economy on your watch, which I'm pretty sure he will, then you've not only shot yourselves in the face, but you did so with glee. JESUS TAKE THE FUCKING WHEEL. Welcome to the club and write your congressperson" anger.
I'm young enough, my 401K evaporating might be fixable. It's going to bankrupt and, ultimately, kill a lot of older folks, especially if the ACA goes away which it will hahaha sob.
posted by lydhre at 7:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm young enough, my 401K evaporating might be fixable. It's going to bankrupt and, ultimately, kill a lot of older folks, especially if the ACA goes away which it will hahaha sob.
posted by lydhre at 7:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Protests are important because we damn well need to sell the story that this is crazy Trump vs. the American people and this Shit is Not OK.
posted by Zalzidrax at 7:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 7:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Fred Clark: White evangelicalism is white nationalism:
White evangelicalism yesterday performed the purpose for which it was designed: It elected a white nationalist as president.posted by palindromic at 7:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [63 favorites]
This was not a failure, but a success. This was not a side effect or an accident or a collateral consequence. This was not the end of white evangelicalism, but the culmination of its purpose, its origin, its intent. White evangelicalism is white nationalism. This is what it is, and always has been, for.
the elitists lost
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
posted by rocket88 at 7:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
posted by rocket88 at 7:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
As a family we're trying to come up with a plan that will both keep us sane and offer some net good for the world. We're privileged straight-married (I'm not straight but I benefit from that privilege) white folks, so the most we have to fear is nuclear or financial market Armageddon (I work for a public university so if public funds dry up enough, my job is on the line), but we live in a vibrant, diverse city filled with people whose lives are at stake.
We're looking for volunteer and activism opportunities driven by the needs and vision of our local communities of color. We're looking for ways to involve our four-year-old in volunteer work and charitable giving. And personally I am looking for some good books to read so that when I am not out doing this work, I can practice a modicum of self-care and not drive myself to the depths of anxiety.
I think also there might be some very angry letters in my future. I need to vent off some of this pressure before I can roll up my sleeves and get to work properly.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
We're looking for volunteer and activism opportunities driven by the needs and vision of our local communities of color. We're looking for ways to involve our four-year-old in volunteer work and charitable giving. And personally I am looking for some good books to read so that when I am not out doing this work, I can practice a modicum of self-care and not drive myself to the depths of anxiety.
I think also there might be some very angry letters in my future. I need to vent off some of this pressure before I can roll up my sleeves and get to work properly.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just as a reminder, since there was amazingly some pushback on this in the previous thread: the electoral college exists because of slavery.
Textbooks and primers offer us two common explanations for the creation of the electoral college. Both are wrong, and both miss one of the central purposes of the electoral college, which was to insure that the largest state, Virginia, would be able to elect the national president, and that the slave states would be able to use their slave population to influence the election of the president. Paul Finkelman, The Proslavery Origins of the Electoral College, 23 Cardozo L. Rev. 1145.posted by stopgap at 7:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [55 favorites]
In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College . . . instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count. Akhil Reed Amar, The Troubling Reason the Electoral College Exists, Time.
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
Elitist: Someone who is not an idiot.
posted by TedW at 7:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Elitist: Someone who is not an idiot.
posted by TedW at 7:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
the elitists lost
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
Republicans coin terms that make no sense and Democrats debate their meaning endlessly on cable news, internet forums and NPR. Keep taking the bait while they loot the treasury.
posted by any major dude at 7:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
Republicans coin terms that make no sense and Democrats debate their meaning endlessly on cable news, internet forums and NPR. Keep taking the bait while they loot the treasury.
posted by any major dude at 7:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
An elitist is someone who disagrees with you without cussing.
posted by Etrigan at 7:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
An elitist is someone who disagrees with you without cussing.
posted by Etrigan at 7:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
The power of non-violent action should be studied as much as military and violent action is studied..... there are hundreds of non-violent actions with demonstrable impact in regime changes...but they tend not to be organised sufficiently...
I was sent a link to Raquib's TED talk on this..
posted by Wilder at 7:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I was sent a link to Raquib's TED talk on this..
posted by Wilder at 7:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
So the silver-spoon private school brat son of a multi-millionaire who never worked a real day in his life and lives in a gold-plated palace is *not* elite?
posted by rocket88 at 7:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 7:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
I'm really worried for the Baltic nations
It's hardly reassuring that potential Secretary of State Newt Gingrich dismisses Estonia (a NATO ally) as "some place which is the suburbs of St. Petersburg.":
posted by Kabanos at 7:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's hardly reassuring that potential Secretary of State Newt Gingrich dismisses Estonia (a NATO ally) as "some place which is the suburbs of St. Petersburg.":
When pressed on whether Trump and the U.S. would come to the aid of countries like Estonia in the case of a Russian invasion, Gingrich said he too "would think about it a great deal."
"Estonia is in the suburbs of St. Petersburg. The Russians aren't gonna necessarily come across the border militarily. The Russians are gonna do what they did in Ukraine," he said. "I'm not sure I would risk a nuclear war over some place which is the suburbs of St. Petersburg. I think we have to think about what does this stuff mean."
posted by Kabanos at 7:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
198 methods of non-violent resistance.
posted by drezdn at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
So the silver-spoon private school brat son of a multi-millionaire who never worked a real day in his life and lives in a gold-plated palace is *not* elite?
Of course not, because he said he wasn't and that's all that counts to some folks.
posted by lydhre at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Of course not, because he said he wasn't and that's all that counts to some folks.
posted by lydhre at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Given the panicked call I got last night from our financial adviser down in GA
This is not your AskMe (TINYA?), but IMHO your angry response is correct -- if your financial advisor is calling you abruptly in panic mode in reaction to blather from cable news, you need a new financial advisor.
posted by aught at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
This is not your AskMe (TINYA?), but IMHO your angry response is correct -- if your financial advisor is calling you abruptly in panic mode in reaction to blather from cable news, you need a new financial advisor.
posted by aught at 7:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Four years from now....
It has to be two years from now. Mid-terms have mattered so very much, Democrats/liberals/whatever can not just bank on getting the Presidency every 4 years. The last six years have clearly demonstrated with destructive force Congress can be to going forward.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
It has to be two years from now. Mid-terms have mattered so very much, Democrats/liberals/whatever can not just bank on getting the Presidency every 4 years. The last six years have clearly demonstrated with destructive force Congress can be to going forward.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
I just heard from the radio that New Zealand's immigration website suddenly jumped from 3000 hits a day to 70000. Lots of comments here about leaving Trump's America too.
Now I think I've figured out his plan to build a wall and have the Mexicans pay for it.
posted by adept256 at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Now I think I've figured out his plan to build a wall and have the Mexicans pay for it.
posted by adept256 at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can someone give me a definition of elitist that would make this statement make any sense?
Elitist, n. A liberal currently in power, or supporting those who are, whose political positions Glenn Greenwald disagrees with.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Elitist, n. A liberal currently in power, or supporting those who are, whose political positions Glenn Greenwald disagrees with.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Students yelling 'cotton picker,' heiling Hitler at this local school
posted by Talez at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Talez at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
What can I do to help protect people who will be threatened by this?
posted by Gymnopedist at 7:31 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Gymnopedist at 7:31 AM on November 10, 2016
So the silver-spoon private school brat son of a multi-millionaire who never worked a real day in his life and lives in a gold-plated palace is *not* elite?
No, he's the con man who swindled millions of people using an "elite" straw-person to rile them up.
posted by aught at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, he's the con man who swindled millions of people using an "elite" straw-person to rile them up.
posted by aught at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
An attorney friend of mine has created a PN-type Facebook group for organizing. If people want to hit me up, I've put my FB link in my profile.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is not your AskMe (TINYA?), but IMHO your angry response is correct -- if your financial advisor is calling you abruptly in panic mode in reaction to blather from cable news, you need a new financial advisor.
Aught, he is a great financial adviser and this was about politics. They do have no idea what's going to happen, which means we wait and see and be on high alert, not DUMP ALL YOUR STOCK AND BUY GOLD. But he was not reassuring about the long term stability or trend of the market, as well he shouldn't have been.
posted by lydhre at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Aught, he is a great financial adviser and this was about politics. They do have no idea what's going to happen, which means we wait and see and be on high alert, not DUMP ALL YOUR STOCK AND BUY GOLD. But he was not reassuring about the long term stability or trend of the market, as well he shouldn't have been.
posted by lydhre at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
shouldn't the Democratic leadership be getting out ahead of a potential Gingrich or Palin in the cabinet by signaling that they will filibuster with extreme prejudice?
posted by any major dude at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by any major dude at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
What can I do to help protect people who will be threatened by this?
Let them know you're there for them, first of all.
posted by drezdn at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why aren't the school administrators punishing the students who do this? It's not free speech to call your classmates slurs. Stop holding goddamn assemblies about tolerance and start punishing the students who are marching around shouting "white power", etc.
Even in the right wing suburb where I went to school, that behavior on any visible, systemic, documented level would never, ever have been tolerated by the administration. It sure wasn't that kids weren't racist and homophobic, it was that using those words loudly where adults could hear was punished.
posted by Frowner at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
Even in the right wing suburb where I went to school, that behavior on any visible, systemic, documented level would never, ever have been tolerated by the administration. It sure wasn't that kids weren't racist and homophobic, it was that using those words loudly where adults could hear was punished.
posted by Frowner at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
KKK on the bridge in Mebane, NC this morning 😪
posted by Talez at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Talez at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thank you for posting these, Talez. I want this shit spread far and wide. With all of the hand-wringing about liberal elites and the poor downtrodden whites in the Rust Belt, I don't want this forgotten.
These are the children of these white people, and this is what they've taken away as the lesson of the Trump campaign. I don't give a good goddamn what their parents might bleat about it being about economics, not racism/sexism, but the proof is in the action. These kids absorbed the real message, and they're showing it loud and clear.
We can't let this be taken out on the bodies of racial minorities, women, trans people, gay people, immigrants....
posted by Salieri at 7:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
These are the children of these white people, and this is what they've taken away as the lesson of the Trump campaign. I don't give a good goddamn what their parents might bleat about it being about economics, not racism/sexism, but the proof is in the action. These kids absorbed the real message, and they're showing it loud and clear.
We can't let this be taken out on the bodies of racial minorities, women, trans people, gay people, immigrants....
posted by Salieri at 7:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
In case anyone has missed it, there is an AskMe (Understanding why Trump won) looking for good analysis, preferably quantitative, of how Trump won. There are some interesting non-pundit, non-anecdotal links in there.
posted by Kabanos at 7:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 7:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, there were incorrect early reports of final vote tallies, but ultimately Clinton underperformed Obama by 2.5 million votes (4%), while Trump only outperformed Romney by 300k votes (0.5%).
What it comes down to time and time again is the left just not bothering to vote and despite the shitshow that I expect the next two years will bring, I expect the usual mediocre midterm Democratic turnout again. There was absolutely voter disenfranchisement but not that prevented millions of voters from turning up. There was a massive GOTV effort, free rides, celebrity parades to the polls, and people still wouldn't show up.
posted by Candleman at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
What it comes down to time and time again is the left just not bothering to vote and despite the shitshow that I expect the next two years will bring, I expect the usual mediocre midterm Democratic turnout again. There was absolutely voter disenfranchisement but not that prevented millions of voters from turning up. There was a massive GOTV effort, free rides, celebrity parades to the polls, and people still wouldn't show up.
posted by Candleman at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Nothing is funny to me anymore. I care not a lick for this country or it's people. America is valueless and worse than empty. Half the people are ignorant racists, a third don't give a shit and the rest are shopping. There was a brief moment, I can't recall when..some years ago when I felt a little ping of what could be called pride. America stood for something briefly. I can't recall because it never happened. This country has had so many chances, at goodness even greatness and it came to nothing. My father was smart man, moral and decent and military. A child of WW2 he was more or less a single issue voter; strong military. He didn't vote party he voted for the man. He could read a man, like I said he was smart. Trump would be ridiculous to him, absurd that this immoral clown could be commander and chief of the armed forces. I miss him but glad he's not here to witness this catastrophe, this national mistake. Like me he'd express a brief, succinct opinion then take a walk..by himself.
Humor is gone. There is nothing funny about this. I will never laugh about this. That's the worst part for me. I could always, no matter how lame brained or insulting something was...just give me a laugh, a good shot of satire. Anything, nothing..don't even try.
posted by judson at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Humor is gone. There is nothing funny about this. I will never laugh about this. That's the worst part for me. I could always, no matter how lame brained or insulting something was...just give me a laugh, a good shot of satire. Anything, nothing..don't even try.
posted by judson at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Is there any chance the electoral college will turn faithless in Dec?
posted by slipthought at 9:08 AM on November 10 [1 favorite +] [!]
Even if we tried to turn electors and it worked (and it would probably not, I imagine many, even if queasy about Trump, believe in sacred trusts and so on), if we burned that bridge, we would never have a sane election again, because the Republicans would use the precedent to invalidate every future Democratic winner in a close race.
posted by aught at 6:50 AM on November 10 [+] [!]
Good. Turning the EC to prevent Trump creates bipartisan motivation to tear it down. Win-win.
posted by baltimoretim at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by slipthought at 9:08 AM on November 10 [1 favorite +] [!]
Even if we tried to turn electors and it worked (and it would probably not, I imagine many, even if queasy about Trump, believe in sacred trusts and so on), if we burned that bridge, we would never have a sane election again, because the Republicans would use the precedent to invalidate every future Democratic winner in a close race.
posted by aught at 6:50 AM on November 10 [+] [!]
Good. Turning the EC to prevent Trump creates bipartisan motivation to tear it down. Win-win.
posted by baltimoretim at 7:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
I just can't see one more oblivious white person wondering why people are upset. I just can't see one more smug white person say they didn't protest Obama. I just can't see one more excited white person talk about how elated they and their friends were on election night, that they hugged each other so much and that's what love winning feels like. I just can't see one more falsely conciliatory white person tell minorities to shut up, they're going to be fine, as if the president elect hasn't spent over a year campaigning on the main plank that they won't be, and as if we haven't ALREADY seen so many horrific acts that I've already lost count.
Honestly I just can't see one more white person. That's hard though, cuz mirrors exist.
posted by yellowbinder at 7:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Honestly I just can't see one more white person. That's hard though, cuz mirrors exist.
posted by yellowbinder at 7:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
What it comes down to time and time again is the left just not bothering to vote
And, you know, the voting rights act being gone.
posted by drezdn at 7:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
And, you know, the voting rights act being gone.
posted by drezdn at 7:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Yeah. I don't see any need to blame on apathy what we can credit to suppression.
posted by maxsparber at 7:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 7:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
KKK on the bridge in Mebane, NC this morning 😪
If you read down it looks like it wasn't the KKK.
Snopes.
Still a victory march but not a KKK one
. But the photograph doesn't depict the KKK marching in Mebane, nor was it taken on 9 November 2016. It instead depicts a group of conservatives who were carrying American, Gadsden, and Christian flags, which some viewers of the grainy picture mistook for robes.
Burlington Times News reporter Natalie Janicello confirmed the picture was taken in the evening hours on 8 November 2016, and that none of the people who were rallying claimed to be associated with the KKK.
posted by Jalliah at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016
If you read down it looks like it wasn't the KKK.
Snopes.
Still a victory march but not a KKK one
. But the photograph doesn't depict the KKK marching in Mebane, nor was it taken on 9 November 2016. It instead depicts a group of conservatives who were carrying American, Gadsden, and Christian flags, which some viewers of the grainy picture mistook for robes.
Burlington Times News reporter Natalie Janicello confirmed the picture was taken in the evening hours on 8 November 2016, and that none of the people who were rallying claimed to be associated with the KKK.
posted by Jalliah at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016
Talez: That picture was a hoax.
Oh thank god. One less piece of deplorability. It's not much but I'll take it.
posted by Talez at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh thank god. One less piece of deplorability. It's not much but I'll take it.
posted by Talez at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Has anyone seen a list compiling resources that point leftist towards organizations and causes that will seek to resist trump's administration? I need a project.
posted by codacorolla at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Polifact has more details about the picture, including a link to the article by the reporter on the bridge that Snopes mentions.
That being said, from the Snopes link:
A representative from the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan contacted us to say the group was indeed not involved with the bridge event depicted in the photograph. They are planning their own Trump victory march on 3 December 2016 in North Carolina.
So there will be a Klan march, that's just not a picture of one.
posted by papercrane at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
That being said, from the Snopes link:
A representative from the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan contacted us to say the group was indeed not involved with the bridge event depicted in the photograph. They are planning their own Trump victory march on 3 December 2016 in North Carolina.
So there will be a Klan march, that's just not a picture of one.
posted by papercrane at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
There was madness in any direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, then up the Golden Gate or down 101 to Los Altos or La Honda.… You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning.…
And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave.…
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
posted by TedW at 7:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave.…
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
posted by TedW at 7:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think it's useful to distinguish apathy from suppression: one comes from a place of privilege and one comes from a place of disenfranchisement. These are two different fronts to fight on.
posted by lydhre at 7:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 7:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Basically everyone who has been seething about her win since the primaries is now taking this opportunity to trot out all the shit one can easily refute via Snopes. "She's corrupt! Bernie would have won, 100%! Emails! EMAILS!"
What exactly can be easily refuted via Snopes? That DNC is corrupt? That they, led by Debbie Wasserman Schultz undermined Sanders campaign to nominate Clinton? That NYT and other Democratic establishment media continuously ran biased coverage of Sanders campaign to ensure a Clinton nomination? That Donna Brazile sent debate questions to Clinton? Which ones of these are lies?
What would Snopes refute out of this for example?
posted by shala at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
What exactly can be easily refuted via Snopes? That DNC is corrupt? That they, led by Debbie Wasserman Schultz undermined Sanders campaign to nominate Clinton? That NYT and other Democratic establishment media continuously ran biased coverage of Sanders campaign to ensure a Clinton nomination? That Donna Brazile sent debate questions to Clinton? Which ones of these are lies?
What would Snopes refute out of this for example?
posted by shala at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Fred Clark: White evangelicalism is white nationalism
Fred Clark's Twitter is worth following too:
Fred Clark's Twitter is worth following too:
Fred Clark @SlacktivistFred 18 hours agoposted by Catseye at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
If you're part of a Trump-supporting white evangelical congregation, don't just leave. Get kicked out. Go full Micaiah, head high.
Fred Clark @SlacktivistFred 18 hours ago
Seriously, make it memorable. Make it a story you'll tell with pride and they'll tell with horror for years to come. Make it matter.
Fred Clark @SlacktivistFred 18 hours ago
Don't just be a mysterious part of some inscrutable statistic about declining attendance or Millennial outreach. Let 'em know what and why.
Why aren't the school administrators punishing the students who do this?
The news story I saw about this quoted from a letter from the principal stating they were investigating who was behind the reported slurs and insults, and that the school would not tolerate these sorts of actions. (One may or may not take wishy-washy statements from such administrators seriously, or might well be dubious that they will be effective, of course, but they at least made public statements of condemnation.)
posted by aught at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2016
The news story I saw about this quoted from a letter from the principal stating they were investigating who was behind the reported slurs and insults, and that the school would not tolerate these sorts of actions. (One may or may not take wishy-washy statements from such administrators seriously, or might well be dubious that they will be effective, of course, but they at least made public statements of condemnation.)
posted by aught at 7:42 AM on November 10, 2016
If you're part of a Trump-supporting white evangelical congregation, don't just leave. Get kicked out. Go full Micaiah, head high.
As a person who is not part of a Trump-support white evangelical congregation, I'm glad I get to go to a church run by lesbians who solicit donations for Syrian refugees. I'm going to church this Sunday feeling like they will help me (and the us) through this.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
As a person who is not part of a Trump-support white evangelical congregation, I'm glad I get to go to a church run by lesbians who solicit donations for Syrian refugees. I'm going to church this Sunday feeling like they will help me (and the us) through this.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Spare a thought for Obama this morning as he meets with Trump. I outlined it more here, but I deeply hope that he'll try to influence Trump in some way, not just pose for a photo op. Convince the former Democrat and very unconventional Republican that he shouldn't just bend to the will of the GOP Congress. Encourage him to give power to his daughter and son-in-law (both Democrats) rather than the alternative. Maybe Bernie can get in there too. Convince him that repealing Dodd-Frank is exactly the opposite of what he promised his base.
I also think that there needs to be some kind of information campaign whenever Trump does something antithetical to his campaign promises, aimed at his base. For instance, we need to advertise the fact that he's considering an ex-Goldman Sachs banker as his Treasury Secretary. Someone needs to pay a bucketload of money to those Macedonian teens. I hope David Brock is paying attention.
posted by acidic at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I also think that there needs to be some kind of information campaign whenever Trump does something antithetical to his campaign promises, aimed at his base. For instance, we need to advertise the fact that he's considering an ex-Goldman Sachs banker as his Treasury Secretary. Someone needs to pay a bucketload of money to those Macedonian teens. I hope David Brock is paying attention.
posted by acidic at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
A representative from the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan contacted us to say the group was indeed not involved with the bridge event depicted in the photograph. They are planning their own Trump victory march on 3 December 2016 in North Carolina.
And this is one of the reasons that the protests that are happening matters. They may not have an absolute clear message or even a clear plan but it matters. It's not just about saying 'you're not my President." It's saying 'We don't agree with (type of shit that I posted above) that we know this Presidency is based on and be seen doing it.
Like don't cede the streets to the KKK and their ilk.
posted by Jalliah at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
And this is one of the reasons that the protests that are happening matters. They may not have an absolute clear message or even a clear plan but it matters. It's not just about saying 'you're not my President." It's saying 'We don't agree with (type of shit that I posted above) that we know this Presidency is based on and be seen doing it.
Like don't cede the streets to the KKK and their ilk.
posted by Jalliah at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Side note: after doing their best during the Soviet era to commit cultural genocide in the Baltics, just the other year the ethnic Russian interlopers in Latvia narrowly lost a plebiscite to declare Russian an equal state language alongside Latvian.
You mean an ethnic minority was denied an opportunity to conduct official business in their native language? Those interlopers!
posted by shala at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
You mean an ethnic minority was denied an opportunity to conduct official business in their native language? Those interlopers!
posted by shala at 7:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
For those of you looking for a place to escape to try my hometown:
A Guide for Americans Moving To Australia to Escape President Trump – Perth
And to make sure you fit in: Shit Perth People Say
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
A Guide for Americans Moving To Australia to Escape President Trump – Perth
And to make sure you fit in: Shit Perth People Say
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
foraging for food and water in the ashes of a nuclear winter?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 7:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
The bridge thing is fake but this is real: KKK of North Carolina Announces Donald Trump Victory Parade
North Carolina: Keepin' It Classy Since 1866™
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
North Carolina: Keepin' It Classy Since 1866™
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
So... what are the plans for 2018?
Mine is to fight like hell to keep Curt Schilling out of MA's senate seat.
posted by Talez at 7:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Mine is to fight like hell to keep Curt Schilling out of MA's senate seat.
posted by Talez at 7:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Seattle Mayor vows city will remain 'sanctuary city', which under Trump's plan means all federal funds will be cut off from the city.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Thanks for the Snopes link about the march, Johnny Wallflower. I might be in NC on that day and this whole "undisclosed location" thing is very disconcerting.
As for violence against gender-nonconforming people whose presentation leans more masculine, that's always been a thing. Not as much as violence against transfeminine folks, undoubtedly, but "at less risk" has never meant "safe".
May we all stay safe.
posted by inconstant at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
As for violence against gender-nonconforming people whose presentation leans more masculine, that's always been a thing. Not as much as violence against transfeminine folks, undoubtedly, but "at less risk" has never meant "safe".
May we all stay safe.
posted by inconstant at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I get so angry at the posts from people who say that now The People Have Spoken and we all need to go along and get along. Excuse me if I don't feel like holding hands with the people who tweeted me lovely messages that I need to take a one-way trip into the oven. That's not how things work.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by SisterHavana at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
Collection of Cover Pages from across the world on Trump winning the election
Still can't believe it.
posted by Megustalations at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Still can't believe it.
posted by Megustalations at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I hate to say it, but people probably need to start thinking about what they're going to do to prepare for the mid-terms. We can't count on the existing Democratic party to organize itself effectively, we have to do it ourselves, and that's going to take time.
My first step is going to be applying for citizenship. I've done a lot of organizing over the last 18 months, but have always been a bit shy because I only have a green card.
posted by Coventry at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
My first step is going to be applying for citizenship. I've done a lot of organizing over the last 18 months, but have always been a bit shy because I only have a green card.
posted by Coventry at 7:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them
This comment is stunning. They are racist. They are racist.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [100 favorites]
This comment is stunning. They are racist. They are racist.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [100 favorites]
So... what are the plans for 2018?
Mostly to trade water with Gas Town and the Bullet Farm along the Fury Road.
posted by maxsparber at 7:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Mostly to trade water with Gas Town and the Bullet Farm along the Fury Road.
posted by maxsparber at 7:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Maybe the protests would make more sense to me if they focused on some specific change, like getting rid of the electoral college. It seems to me that for people who don't already hate Trump (assuming that those are the intended audience), "our candidate won, but the system is unfair" would be a more effective message than "our candidate lost, but we don't like the winner." The former is highlighting a genuinely unfair electoral system, but the latter just sounds like the protesters are being sore losers.
The President Elect is a self-professed tax and contract cheat and likely rapist. Since all of that came up during the election, I don't think it's unreasonable to call for investigation and impeachment.
The President Elect has promised to shut down cities, organize a deportation dragnet measured by raw numbers, and to erase many LGBTQ rights and benefits on the first day. Protesting against those promised actions now is hardly premature.
I'm a broken record on Barber this week, but the value of moral protest isn't measured by a clock or whether those problems are immediately fixable. In many cases they're not. The value is measured on the morality of the principles expressed.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
The President Elect is a self-professed tax and contract cheat and likely rapist. Since all of that came up during the election, I don't think it's unreasonable to call for investigation and impeachment.
The President Elect has promised to shut down cities, organize a deportation dragnet measured by raw numbers, and to erase many LGBTQ rights and benefits on the first day. Protesting against those promised actions now is hardly premature.
I'm a broken record on Barber this week, but the value of moral protest isn't measured by a clock or whether those problems are immediately fixable. In many cases they're not. The value is measured on the morality of the principles expressed.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
No, you're trying not to cry at your desk reading the 2015 Ryan budget.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:59 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:59 AM on November 10, 2016
Dear Republicans, You know how you felt about the possibility that Obama would take your guns away? It's like that for us on the left right now, except it's our family, friends and neighbors, and Trump actually said he planned to do it.
posted by drezdn at 7:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [62 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [62 favorites]
Yeah, I don't think you really get to say The People Have Spoken when you've lost the popular vote. Same to the "well gee let's unite behind the new president" no no no no fuck no I will never.
Anyway yeah to midterms organizing. I know in Florida redistricting happens in 2020 so the next couple election cycles are very important at the state level. I really want to get involved volunteering with local/state level politics after this mess. If there's a way to methodically eliminate the Republican party from existence, I want to help.
posted by Gymnopedist at 8:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Anyway yeah to midterms organizing. I know in Florida redistricting happens in 2020 so the next couple election cycles are very important at the state level. I really want to get involved volunteering with local/state level politics after this mess. If there's a way to methodically eliminate the Republican party from existence, I want to help.
posted by Gymnopedist at 8:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Let's be clear: the bridge thing is real, it's just KKK-agreeing randos and not the Klan proper. It's still scum screaming in victory, just not that specific scum organization.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
shouldn't the Democratic leadership be getting out ahead of a potential Gingrich or Palin in the cabinet by signaling that they will filibuster with extreme prejudice?
Well, there's a non-zero chance that the Republican majority will eliminate the filibuster, so making a big stink about it now is "red flag to a bull" territory. More likely there are some quiet behind-the-scenes discussions with possible Republican allies over the issue of keeping the filibuster and/or coming up with not-batshit cabinet possibilities.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, there's a non-zero chance that the Republican majority will eliminate the filibuster, so making a big stink about it now is "red flag to a bull" territory. More likely there are some quiet behind-the-scenes discussions with possible Republican allies over the issue of keeping the filibuster and/or coming up with not-batshit cabinet possibilities.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Day 1 in Trump’s America (Medium roundup)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Say we should all come together and be civil one more time, motherfucker.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
For all the sniping going on among Democrats and those of us watching horrified from abroad, we seem to be losing sight of a clear fact: Trump didn't win over the people who voted for Obama, those people just stayed home or were kept from the polls by voter suppression. Trump just turned out the same old Republican base that voted for Romney in 2012, McCain in 2008, and Bush in 2004 and 2000. Now 2016 has proved what the radical left has been screaming about my entire adult life: the GOP is a party dominated by crypto-fascists just waiting for the opportunity to show their true colours.
There is no better example of this than what happened in Utah. What was it that finally broke the back of the McMullin campaign? A robocall from some nobody literally identifying himself as a "white nationalist" accusing Evan McMullin of being gay. Fully half the number of people who voted for polished, genteel, Mormon Mitt Romney in Utah voted for full-throated fascism. And not just Franco type fascism, the armbands and gas chambers type of fascism. McMullin was relegated to a distant also-ran, gathering less than a third of the votes Trump got. For the diehard Republicans in Utah, we now know unambigiously where their loyalties lie: not with high-minded principles of limited government, not with tribal party affiliations, but with pure, seething hatred.
All Trump did differently this time was be brazen enough to rip the mask off the monster that the Southern Strategy had created. The problem was never Trump. The problem was the Republican base. And now, predictably, the gutless remoras like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell are attaching themselves to Trump's lily-white underbelly because it smells like a meal ticket, and all the Serious People in the GOP caucus that we were told were worth negotiating with have instantly become fascist sympathizers or toadies.
So now after failing Democrats and failing the entire world once again, the smug liberal establishment that lectured the rabble on the left about civility, and bipartisanship and compromise need to go away forever. The absolute worst of this was on full display with the back-patting nonsense going around about raising money for the North Carolina GOP after the firebombing. I'm not defending what the arsonists did, but they were right about one thing: the North Carolina GOP are a bunch of Nazis, and you can't fight fair against Nazis. This was obvious right from the beginning of the Obama presidency, where despite being humiliated at the polls and holding only the filibuster they prevented the Democrats from doing anything. The war on the voting rights act, the actions they took gerrymandering all the way back to Tom Delay during the Bush years, that was a full on assault on democracy itself.
It's fascists, not normal conservatives, who show total disregard for democratic norms, institutions and values. They deliberately created a rolling constitutional crisis that ground the functions of government to a standstill for eight years because a black man was in the white house. They were always fascists, and it was always a mistake to assume that they would ever compromise or that a high-minded insistence on civility would accomplish anything. And even now, pundits impregnable to facts like Jonathan Chait are still, after all we've seen, lecturing the uncivil protesters and leftists about the need to be polite and not challenge Trump's legitimacy, and work across the aisle. These feckless losers who laughed at and encouraged Trump's candidacy back in the primaries, and who assured us that Clinton was too savvy to lose, they need to be ignored forever.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [73 favorites]
There is no better example of this than what happened in Utah. What was it that finally broke the back of the McMullin campaign? A robocall from some nobody literally identifying himself as a "white nationalist" accusing Evan McMullin of being gay. Fully half the number of people who voted for polished, genteel, Mormon Mitt Romney in Utah voted for full-throated fascism. And not just Franco type fascism, the armbands and gas chambers type of fascism. McMullin was relegated to a distant also-ran, gathering less than a third of the votes Trump got. For the diehard Republicans in Utah, we now know unambigiously where their loyalties lie: not with high-minded principles of limited government, not with tribal party affiliations, but with pure, seething hatred.
All Trump did differently this time was be brazen enough to rip the mask off the monster that the Southern Strategy had created. The problem was never Trump. The problem was the Republican base. And now, predictably, the gutless remoras like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell are attaching themselves to Trump's lily-white underbelly because it smells like a meal ticket, and all the Serious People in the GOP caucus that we were told were worth negotiating with have instantly become fascist sympathizers or toadies.
So now after failing Democrats and failing the entire world once again, the smug liberal establishment that lectured the rabble on the left about civility, and bipartisanship and compromise need to go away forever. The absolute worst of this was on full display with the back-patting nonsense going around about raising money for the North Carolina GOP after the firebombing. I'm not defending what the arsonists did, but they were right about one thing: the North Carolina GOP are a bunch of Nazis, and you can't fight fair against Nazis. This was obvious right from the beginning of the Obama presidency, where despite being humiliated at the polls and holding only the filibuster they prevented the Democrats from doing anything. The war on the voting rights act, the actions they took gerrymandering all the way back to Tom Delay during the Bush years, that was a full on assault on democracy itself.
It's fascists, not normal conservatives, who show total disregard for democratic norms, institutions and values. They deliberately created a rolling constitutional crisis that ground the functions of government to a standstill for eight years because a black man was in the white house. They were always fascists, and it was always a mistake to assume that they would ever compromise or that a high-minded insistence on civility would accomplish anything. And even now, pundits impregnable to facts like Jonathan Chait are still, after all we've seen, lecturing the uncivil protesters and leftists about the need to be polite and not challenge Trump's legitimacy, and work across the aisle. These feckless losers who laughed at and encouraged Trump's candidacy back in the primaries, and who assured us that Clinton was too savvy to lose, they need to be ignored forever.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [73 favorites]
shouldn't the Democratic leadership be getting out ahead of a potential Gingrich or Palin in the cabinet by signaling that they will filibuster with extreme prejudice?
Not yet. There's been much discussion about whether Republican Senators will even keep the filibuster for the 115th Congress. Although, traditionally, the Senate's rules carry over from one Senate to the next, (and thus any proposed change to the filibuster could itself be filibustered), an argument can be made (and has been made, at length), that this is unconstitutional and that each Senate has the power to set its own rules at the outset of the Senate, unconstrained by any rules set by previous Senates — the so-called "Constitutional Option."
Which is to say, if Republican Senators wanted to eliminate the filibuster for the 115th Congress, they probably could. Whether they will is an open question. On the one hand, it would give them more power in the short term on issues on which they were unified. On the other, it might weaken them in the long term, given that a majority-Democratic Senate is likely at some point; plus, in the upcoming Senate (which appears likely to be 52R-48D), a primarily Democratic-supported measure could be passed by flipping only 3 Republican Senators, with no opportunity for the remaining Republicans to filibuster.
So bottom line, the Democratic leadership should not do anything at this time that would tip Republicans towards eliminating the filibuster, such as signaling that they would filibuster a Gingrich or Palin nomination. Wait until the Senate is seated on Jan. 3, and adopts its rules for this session, hopefully including the filibuster; only then should Democrats threaten to filibuster specific things.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Not yet. There's been much discussion about whether Republican Senators will even keep the filibuster for the 115th Congress. Although, traditionally, the Senate's rules carry over from one Senate to the next, (and thus any proposed change to the filibuster could itself be filibustered), an argument can be made (and has been made, at length), that this is unconstitutional and that each Senate has the power to set its own rules at the outset of the Senate, unconstrained by any rules set by previous Senates — the so-called "Constitutional Option."
Which is to say, if Republican Senators wanted to eliminate the filibuster for the 115th Congress, they probably could. Whether they will is an open question. On the one hand, it would give them more power in the short term on issues on which they were unified. On the other, it might weaken them in the long term, given that a majority-Democratic Senate is likely at some point; plus, in the upcoming Senate (which appears likely to be 52R-48D), a primarily Democratic-supported measure could be passed by flipping only 3 Republican Senators, with no opportunity for the remaining Republicans to filibuster.
So bottom line, the Democratic leadership should not do anything at this time that would tip Republicans towards eliminating the filibuster, such as signaling that they would filibuster a Gingrich or Palin nomination. Wait until the Senate is seated on Jan. 3, and adopts its rules for this session, hopefully including the filibuster; only then should Democrats threaten to filibuster specific things.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Idea for Anti-Trump Hat: Bright Blue Hat that says "Make America Great Again" on the front (Says "Not My President" on the back for clarity).
posted by ishmael at 8:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ishmael at 8:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. The filibuster for non-judicial appointments is already gone, and has been for a couple of years.
2. I wonder what the odds are of a "Nixon pardon" for Hillary, just to close that out?
3. Ditto on the odds of a Garland recess appointment between Congresses on January 3.
4. At least this also screws over the political future of ol' Ted Cruz. I wonder if he runs in 2020 anyway?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
2. I wonder what the odds are of a "Nixon pardon" for Hillary, just to close that out?
3. Ditto on the odds of a Garland recess appointment between Congresses on January 3.
4. At least this also screws over the political future of ol' Ted Cruz. I wonder if he runs in 2020 anyway?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
>> My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them
> This comment is stunning. They are racist. They are racist.
This, right there, is how we lose the argument.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
> This comment is stunning. They are racist. They are racist.
This, right there, is how we lose the argument.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
As a general comment wow could I sure as fuck do without people saying Bernie Sanders would have won.
It was a foolish thing to say in the primaries and it remains so.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
It was a foolish thing to say in the primaries and it remains so.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
Not calling a spade a spade is how we lose the argument.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
Everyone is racist. If you live in the US or Canada, you live on land stolen in a genocide, and you are the inheritors of wealth built by African slaves. Racism is in the air we breathe.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Not calling people you know little about names is the first step to not lose an argument.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
>> My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them
> This comment is stunning. They are racist. They are racist.
This, right there, is how we lose the argument.
By talking about what racism actually is? I don't want to be part of a "we" that denies racism sorry.
posted by zutalors! at 8:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
Not calling people you know little about names is the first step to not lose an argument.
Seems to have worked for them so far.
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Seems to have worked for them so far.
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
CALLING SOMEONE A RACIST WHEN THEY DO/SAY RACIST THINGS THROUGH ACTION OR INACTION IS NOT CALLING ANYONE "NAMES"
posted by lydhre at 8:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 8:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
A better strategy is to call things they do or say racist, but calling people racists when they are acting like racists is fair.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
But it would be good to point out they don't claim to be apathetic to assault or murder, and that these "racial issues" are the support of people who want to do that. To non-white people. And if adding the non-white people part suddenly makes that OK...
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here' a thing i'd like to see before the Obama administration is over: a pardon for every black person in prison for a nonviolent crime (like possession).
Wouldn't that be a nice Fuck You to the racists and to Trump.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Wouldn't that be a nice Fuck You to the racists and to Trump.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
"the first step to defeating the fascists is to not call them fascists."
posted by entropicamericana at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
This, right there, is how we lose the argument.
Yes. The worst thing we can do is accurately name a thing. That's how you lose. By pointing out the plain truth of something.
posted by maxsparber at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
Yes. The worst thing we can do is accurately name a thing. That's how you lose. By pointing out the plain truth of something.
posted by maxsparber at 8:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
My dad's latest: these people protesting are idiots because Trump's only been elected for one day and "nobody has any idea what he's going to do yet."
Um, he had a long campaign talking about it and put out a Day 1 Agenda and... "that's all just talk."
MY BRAIN, IT BURNS
posted by delfin at 8:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Um, he had a long campaign talking about it and put out a Day 1 Agenda and... "that's all just talk."
MY BRAIN, IT BURNS
posted by delfin at 8:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Mod note: We've been around this argument (over exactly what to say about Trump voters, are they racist) a hundred times, please let's not launch into it again
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's entirely possible that Trump's DOJ will try to put [Clinton] on trial.
Possible, but not terribly likely, I think; they'll have their hands full defending Trump, who has a number of pending legal actions against him. (Ditto for the House of Reps trying to explain why they won't impeach him when they threatened repeatedly to do the same to a President Clinton and couldn't hold enough Benghazi hearings in the past.) And something tells me that Clinton could probably find refuge overseas somewhere where they wouldn't extradite her to Trump's mob.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Possible, but not terribly likely, I think; they'll have their hands full defending Trump, who has a number of pending legal actions against him. (Ditto for the House of Reps trying to explain why they won't impeach him when they threatened repeatedly to do the same to a President Clinton and couldn't hold enough Benghazi hearings in the past.) And something tells me that Clinton could probably find refuge overseas somewhere where they wouldn't extradite her to Trump's mob.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's entirely possible that Trump's DOJ will try to put her on trial.
I have very serious doubts that there will be any additional movement on Clinton's 'crimes' now that the GOP won. They never actually gave a shit about any of her 'crimes' and gave the game away that this was just political maneuvering on more than one occasion.
During this upcoming administration, I am anticipating crickets when American embassy workers in dangerous countries are killed - I doubt there will be 11 hours of hearing on Secretary Christie's failures to protect Americans abroad. I am anticipating Iraq War-level uninformed bloodlust as the country moves into open military conflict with, say, Iran. If there is a major terrorist attack, I anticipate that no Trump supporters will claim that he failed to keep America safe.
Because they don't actually give a shit about any of this. All the shit they suddenly cared about when Obama took office was just a fig leaf because open advocacy for white supremacy was considered a political non-starter. They give no shits about email deletions or servers (see: Bush II) or deaths of embassy workers (see: Reagan, Bush II administrations).
They won't put her on trial because they got what they wanted. It was never about justice.
posted by palindromic at 8:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [60 favorites]
I have very serious doubts that there will be any additional movement on Clinton's 'crimes' now that the GOP won. They never actually gave a shit about any of her 'crimes' and gave the game away that this was just political maneuvering on more than one occasion.
During this upcoming administration, I am anticipating crickets when American embassy workers in dangerous countries are killed - I doubt there will be 11 hours of hearing on Secretary Christie's failures to protect Americans abroad. I am anticipating Iraq War-level uninformed bloodlust as the country moves into open military conflict with, say, Iran. If there is a major terrorist attack, I anticipate that no Trump supporters will claim that he failed to keep America safe.
Because they don't actually give a shit about any of this. All the shit they suddenly cared about when Obama took office was just a fig leaf because open advocacy for white supremacy was considered a political non-starter. They give no shits about email deletions or servers (see: Bush II) or deaths of embassy workers (see: Reagan, Bush II administrations).
They won't put her on trial because they got what they wanted. It was never about justice.
posted by palindromic at 8:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [60 favorites]
It's entirely possible that Trump's DOJ will try to put [Clinton] on trial.
Possible, but not terribly likely, I think; they'll have their hands full defending Trump, who has a number of pending legal actions against him.
Not the DOJ's job. Granted, it probably won't stop them...
And then, what palindromic said. It was never about justice.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Possible, but not terribly likely, I think; they'll have their hands full defending Trump, who has a number of pending legal actions against him.
Not the DOJ's job. Granted, it probably won't stop them...
And then, what palindromic said. It was never about justice.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but the party is now disorganized and at the mercy of rabid trump supporters.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016
The only way out, is through. Racism is America's persistently unaddressed original sin and we can't begin to deal with it until we openly acknowledge it. That process will hurt, and it should hurt, for white Americans. Part of that process is for white Americans to call out racism or even racist apathy when they see it, rather than choosing to turn away out of personal discomfort. Call it what you want, and don't use the word "racism" or "racist" if it's not an effective message (it most likely isn't), but don't turn away and avoid the argument altogether.
posted by scantee at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by scantee at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Do you want to fight the passive racists or enlighten them?
I like how there is always this voice saying, you know, we just have to be nice, we just have to find the right words, we just have to present the facts as gently as possible, and the people who have voted for the man who preached a campaign of undiluted hate will see the error of their ways.
I'm not out to convince anyone. I am out to use the tools of democracy to make sure that they cannot cobble together enough votes through their supposedly passive campaign of homophobia, racism, Islamophobia, antisemitism, and misogyny ever to enjoy another win.
I'm not going after the haters. I'm going after the broken mechanism that allowed the haters to win, despite the fact that they had a minority of the votes.
posted by maxsparber at 8:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
I like how there is always this voice saying, you know, we just have to be nice, we just have to find the right words, we just have to present the facts as gently as possible, and the people who have voted for the man who preached a campaign of undiluted hate will see the error of their ways.
I'm not out to convince anyone. I am out to use the tools of democracy to make sure that they cannot cobble together enough votes through their supposedly passive campaign of homophobia, racism, Islamophobia, antisemitism, and misogyny ever to enjoy another win.
I'm not going after the haters. I'm going after the broken mechanism that allowed the haters to win, despite the fact that they had a minority of the votes.
posted by maxsparber at 8:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
What hit me around 4:00 this morning was - Trump was right about what to do in his campaign. He concentrated on the states that made the difference, and that he was able to win.
I had a similar thought while thinking about the pre-8/11 criticism of Nate Silver "unskewing" the polls. What if v1 of this plan had already been unsuccessfully attempted in 2012? Despite all the polling evidence to the contrary, it was reported that Romney held on to the delusion that he was in the lead right up until election night.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:22 AM on November 10, 2016
I had a similar thought while thinking about the pre-8/11 criticism of Nate Silver "unskewing" the polls. What if v1 of this plan had already been unsuccessfully attempted in 2012? Despite all the polling evidence to the contrary, it was reported that Romney held on to the delusion that he was in the lead right up until election night.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:22 AM on November 10, 2016
They won't put her on trial because they got what they wanted. It was never about justice.
I agree, she has no power any more. That's what they wanted.
posted by zutalors! at 8:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here's an excerpt from an email I sent to my dad back in July:
Call people out on their shit. Often. Tacit acceptance of racism is still racism.
posted by phunniemee at 8:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [67 favorites]
I saw someone say on twitter the other day that "you don't have to be a racist to support Trump, you just have to be okay with racism," and boy is that true. Voting for Trump says to Muslim citizens, you don't have the right to feel safe in your home. To Latino citizens, you're a bunch of cheating dirty criminals. To women, that you'd better be pretty and keep your mouth shut. And Dad, if you think that's unfair, tough. Because that's what it's like for the folks out here who didn't make it into the select group of people Trump hasn't attacked yet. He's built his entire campaign around othering huge swathes of the American population, and it's depressing and scary how well that's worked to vault him to such popularity. The Republican party should be ashamed of itself that it's come to this.I'm glad I wrote that to him. I'm glad I called him out, and my only wish is that I had done it more strongly and more often, because he needs to know. When my parents call me in a few weeks and ask me when I'm flying in and I tell them I've made other plans for Christmas, I want them to know why.
Call people out on their shit. Often. Tacit acceptance of racism is still racism.
posted by phunniemee at 8:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [67 favorites]
Papa Kabaddi’s Bumper Fun List Of People Who Might Have Single-Handedly Prevented An Incompetent, Abusive Con-Artist From Becoming The Most Powerful Human Alive If They Had Only Swallowed Their Pride And Openly Endorsed The Competent Candidate
==========
Rupert Murdoch
Erick Erickson
George W. Bush
George H.W. Bush
Punished “Jeb!” Bush, A Fallen Legend
John Kasich
Mitt Romney
Bob Dole (maybe, do people like Bob Dole? Bob Dole likes Bob Dole)
Ted Cruz
Rick Perry
Newt Gingrich
Noted Vagina-Haver Carly Fiorina
Rand Paul
Ron Paul
That Guy Who Played Chachi
Chris Christie Who At Least Might Personally Benefit From This Clusterfuck
Noted Johnson-Haver Gary Johnson
Jill Stein Who Get This Actually Said Trump Would Be Preferable If You Can Believe That, A Supposedly Green Candidate Who Thinks It’s Cool The EPA Will Soon Be Headed By A Climate-Change Denier, Nice Work Buddy
Glenn Beck (Reformed)
Clint “My Oeuvre Doesn’t Accurately Depict How Much Of An Asshole I Am” Eastwood
Mr. Trump’s Least Preferred War Hero, John McCain
Lindsay Graham
Orrin Hatch On Skis
Bill O’Reilly
Brad Paisley Or Someone
Paul “P-Dawg” Ryan
Joe the Plumber
Larry the Cable Guy
Billy the Graham
Slavoj Žižek and His Funky Accelerationists
Donald Trump
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
==========
Rupert Murdoch
Erick Erickson
George W. Bush
George H.W. Bush
Punished “Jeb!” Bush, A Fallen Legend
John Kasich
Mitt Romney
Bob Dole (maybe, do people like Bob Dole? Bob Dole likes Bob Dole)
Ted Cruz
Rick Perry
Newt Gingrich
Noted Vagina-Haver Carly Fiorina
Rand Paul
Ron Paul
That Guy Who Played Chachi
Chris Christie Who At Least Might Personally Benefit From This Clusterfuck
Noted Johnson-Haver Gary Johnson
Jill Stein Who Get This Actually Said Trump Would Be Preferable If You Can Believe That, A Supposedly Green Candidate Who Thinks It’s Cool The EPA Will Soon Be Headed By A Climate-Change Denier, Nice Work Buddy
Glenn Beck (Reformed)
Clint “My Oeuvre Doesn’t Accurately Depict How Much Of An Asshole I Am” Eastwood
Mr. Trump’s Least Preferred War Hero, John McCain
Lindsay Graham
Orrin Hatch On Skis
Bill O’Reilly
Brad Paisley Or Someone
Paul “P-Dawg” Ryan
Joe the Plumber
Larry the Cable Guy
Billy the Graham
Slavoj Žižek and His Funky Accelerationists
Donald Trump
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
To be fair, I think Bernie Sanders shows pretty clearly that endorsing a candidate doesn't mean your supporters will follow your lead.
posted by inconstant at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm not going after the haters. I'm going after the broken mechanism that allowed the haters to win, despite the fact that they had a minority of the votes.
I get that, and that's awesome, 'cause there's a lot to do and only so many of us that's gonna do it.
That said, while you work on the system, I'm going to get between the haters and whoever they're trying to hate, 'cause the whole reason my heart and my head swung to the left is because I can't stand to watch people being monsters to other people.
We all got jobs, and there's plenty to choose from.
posted by Mooski at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I get that, and that's awesome, 'cause there's a lot to do and only so many of us that's gonna do it.
That said, while you work on the system, I'm going to get between the haters and whoever they're trying to hate, 'cause the whole reason my heart and my head swung to the left is because I can't stand to watch people being monsters to other people.
We all got jobs, and there's plenty to choose from.
posted by Mooski at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I suspect he knows exactly what he's going to do...parade around state dinners with his wife, emboss "President Trump" on everything he can, and wrap the Lincoln Bedroom in gold. And let Pence actually do all the work.
This was one of my colleague's fears too.
I was thinking more about what I said upthread, where I responded to Garrison Keillor's "lay back in the buckwheat" stance. And y'all were correct to point out that it definitely comes across like "smug privileged liberal relaxes in his privilege". I took it differently, and maybe that was because it sounded similar, but not exactly, like a different thing that was in my own head.
So lemme try rewriting what's in my head. Here's the scenario I envision playing out - let's take the "wall on the border" as an example.
GOP Congress: Yay! So, we're in charge now!
DEM Congress: ...Yep, you sure are in charge.
GOP Congress: So we're gonna build that wall and get Mexico to pay for it!
DEM Congress: *shrug* if you say so.
GOP Congress: Yay! So...wait, HOW do we get Mexico to pay for it?
DEM Congress: Search me, dudes, this was your idea.
GOP Congress: Huh. ...Uh, how about we go ask him?
DEM Congress: (secretly smiling) Sure, why not try that.
GOP Congress: Okay....hey, Mexico, give us money for that wall!
Mexican government: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
GOP Congress: ....wow. That didn't work.
DEM Congress: Well, gosh, isn't that interesting. (starts notebook called "2018 talking points")
GOP Congress: Shit....uh, maybe if we bribe them with something?
DEM Congress: What do you mean..."bribe"?
GOP Congress: Like, we offer to send them free tacos or something.
DEM Congress: (smothering laughter) One way to find out...(nudging each other and saying "watch this")
GOP Congress: Hey, guys! If you build that wall....tacos on us!
Mexico: ....Dude, fuck off.
GOP Congress: Wow, that didn't work either.
DEM Congress: ...Fancy that.
You know? Just sort of standing back and letting the GOP fall flat on their face over and over. But I'm not suggesting the Dems stay TOTALLY hands off:
GOP Congress: Hey, how about if we declared WAR on Mexico!
DEM Congress: Okay HOLD up, THAT'S a big fat no.
or -
GOP Congress: I got it, we'll round up all of the illegal immigrants and make THEM build it for nothing.
DEM Congress: Fuck that noise, no.
But otherwise...
GOP Congress: Fuck, how are we gonna make this happen?
DEM Congress: (munching popcorn) I dunno, dudes, this was your idea, I got nothing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
This was one of my colleague's fears too.
I was thinking more about what I said upthread, where I responded to Garrison Keillor's "lay back in the buckwheat" stance. And y'all were correct to point out that it definitely comes across like "smug privileged liberal relaxes in his privilege". I took it differently, and maybe that was because it sounded similar, but not exactly, like a different thing that was in my own head.
So lemme try rewriting what's in my head. Here's the scenario I envision playing out - let's take the "wall on the border" as an example.
GOP Congress: Yay! So, we're in charge now!
DEM Congress: ...Yep, you sure are in charge.
GOP Congress: So we're gonna build that wall and get Mexico to pay for it!
DEM Congress: *shrug* if you say so.
GOP Congress: Yay! So...wait, HOW do we get Mexico to pay for it?
DEM Congress: Search me, dudes, this was your idea.
GOP Congress: Huh. ...Uh, how about we go ask him?
DEM Congress: (secretly smiling) Sure, why not try that.
GOP Congress: Okay....hey, Mexico, give us money for that wall!
Mexican government: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
GOP Congress: ....wow. That didn't work.
DEM Congress: Well, gosh, isn't that interesting. (starts notebook called "2018 talking points")
GOP Congress: Shit....uh, maybe if we bribe them with something?
DEM Congress: What do you mean..."bribe"?
GOP Congress: Like, we offer to send them free tacos or something.
DEM Congress: (smothering laughter) One way to find out...(nudging each other and saying "watch this")
GOP Congress: Hey, guys! If you build that wall....tacos on us!
Mexico: ....Dude, fuck off.
GOP Congress: Wow, that didn't work either.
DEM Congress: ...Fancy that.
You know? Just sort of standing back and letting the GOP fall flat on their face over and over. But I'm not suggesting the Dems stay TOTALLY hands off:
GOP Congress: Hey, how about if we declared WAR on Mexico!
DEM Congress: Okay HOLD up, THAT'S a big fat no.
or -
GOP Congress: I got it, we'll round up all of the illegal immigrants and make THEM build it for nothing.
DEM Congress: Fuck that noise, no.
But otherwise...
GOP Congress: Fuck, how are we gonna make this happen?
DEM Congress: (munching popcorn) I dunno, dudes, this was your idea, I got nothing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
To be fair, I think Bernie Sanders shows pretty clearly that endorsing a candidate doesn't mean your supporters will follow your lead.
But it was really a tiny number of people who needed to be influenced; Clinton won the popular vote after all.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
But it was really a tiny number of people who needed to be influenced; Clinton won the popular vote after all.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't worry, I'm sure they'll find some way to spin being unable to build the wall as the Democrats' fault.
posted by dilaudid at 8:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 8:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm going to show Donald the same respect and cooperation that the GOP has shown Obama for eight years.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
I'm going to get between the haters and whoever they're trying to hate,
Well, since I am one of the ones they are trying to hate, I will be doing plenty of this too. And I will be calling them racists all the while.
posted by maxsparber at 8:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well, since I am one of the ones they are trying to hate, I will be doing plenty of this too. And I will be calling them racists all the while.
posted by maxsparber at 8:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: Papa Kabaddi’s Bumper Fun List Of People Who Might Have Single-Handedly Prevented An Incompetent, Abusive Con-Artist From Becoming The Most Powerful Human Alive If They Had Only Swallowed Their Pride And Openly Endorsed The Competent Candidate
I agree they should've opposed him and endorsed her, but I don't think it would've done any good. She had all the endorsements from newspapers and generals and many prominent Republicans, which meant fuck all to his core supporters.
He got their interest with birtherism, he got their support with the "Mexicans are rapists", and he closed the deal with "ban all Muslims." Nothing else mattered. That's all they wanted. No amount of pundits or endorsements or tax returns or Russian ties were going to make them change their minds. You can't counter racism with endorsements.
posted by bluecore at 8:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I agree they should've opposed him and endorsed her, but I don't think it would've done any good. She had all the endorsements from newspapers and generals and many prominent Republicans, which meant fuck all to his core supporters.
He got their interest with birtherism, he got their support with the "Mexicans are rapists", and he closed the deal with "ban all Muslims." Nothing else mattered. That's all they wanted. No amount of pundits or endorsements or tax returns or Russian ties were going to make them change their minds. You can't counter racism with endorsements.
posted by bluecore at 8:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Should have linked PZ Myers' essay to the Kill Bill meme above.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Report 1: Engaging Racists who Support Trump in order to Enlighten
So in this one case I moved from my basic 'wrong' response to engage because this person seems to become obsessed with the fact that most if not all of my family are 'liberals' in general and think Trump is no good. But really the really reason is that they're posting on Facebook and literally 'forcing' her to see it. She does not like any talk about racism and Trump one tiny bit.
And what part of engagement are we at now? We'll ignore any talk of racism, sexism and all of that and focus on the fact that my nephew said "Fuck" when he heard Trump won. We're onto lectures about parenting and how my Dad should be disgusted because he raised daughters who allowed their kid to say the word 'fuck' in relation to Trump. And how she would never ever, ever put up with her Grandson saying the word 'fuck'.
I mean, yeah. Enlightenment, we're right on track. I can feel it coming any second.
posted by Jalliah at 8:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
If Sheriff Joe makes it to Secretary of DHS.
Jesus Fucking Christ. Will planes turn into immigration checks?
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on November 10, 2016
Jesus Fucking Christ. Will planes turn into immigration checks?
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on November 10, 2016
After reading the metafilter election thread, I am now convinced of something Jamelle Bouie said on twitter which is, "Trump’s win means that white nationalism is at the center of our politics, and that people on the right and left will try to accommodate it."
posted by RedShrek at 8:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by RedShrek at 8:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Even in the right wing suburb where I went to school, that behavior on any visible, systemic, documented level would never, ever have been tolerated by the administration. It sure wasn't that kids weren't racist and homophobic, it was that using those words loudly where adults could hear was punished.
This is, in my opinion, the real worst danger of the Trump administration. It's not the laws he might not veto, or the people he might appoint. It's - how do you stop this when it comes from the top? How do you punish this when it's embraced or accepted by the President of the United States?
Remember all the little times that Obama stepped in when someone small had something bad happen to them because people were unjust? The professor who was arrested by police breaking into his own house, the boy arrested for the clock. He invited them to the White House, and it was always a profound symbol: injustice may have occurred, but it is Not What We Do Here.
Now imagine the school punishes those boys for chanting "White Power" at the school, or raising a Nazi flag, or saying "You have to go back", or chanting "Trump" at an opposing basketball team.
Now imagine them being invited to the White House, as a powerful reminder that sure, they may have been punished, but it is absolutely What We Do Here.
posted by corb at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [63 favorites]
This is, in my opinion, the real worst danger of the Trump administration. It's not the laws he might not veto, or the people he might appoint. It's - how do you stop this when it comes from the top? How do you punish this when it's embraced or accepted by the President of the United States?
Remember all the little times that Obama stepped in when someone small had something bad happen to them because people were unjust? The professor who was arrested by police breaking into his own house, the boy arrested for the clock. He invited them to the White House, and it was always a profound symbol: injustice may have occurred, but it is Not What We Do Here.
Now imagine the school punishes those boys for chanting "White Power" at the school, or raising a Nazi flag, or saying "You have to go back", or chanting "Trump" at an opposing basketball team.
Now imagine them being invited to the White House, as a powerful reminder that sure, they may have been punished, but it is absolutely What We Do Here.
posted by corb at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [63 favorites]
The Business We've Chosen
I think I have a little bit of cred on the questions Glenn’s essay is addressing. I was arguing sixteen months ago that Trump had a very real shot at both the GOP nomination and the presidency, because he was a skilled populist demagogue, who was already successfully exploiting the intersection of racism and economic anxiety.posted by tonycpsu at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
I supported Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primaries. I criticized Hillary Clinton sharply on numerous occasions for her far-too-cozy relationship with banksters and war criminals. I deplored the combination of greed and extreme tone deafness that led an already very rich person to take many millions in speaking fees from financial interests during the short time between her tenure at State and the formal beginning of her presidential run.
So yes I agree, wholeheartedly and without reservation, that Hillary Clinton was a flawed candidate. But there’s an extra word in that sentence. It’s the extra word that would still be in that sentence if you replaced the name “Hillary Clinton” with any other name in the recorded history of the world. [...]
If you helped bring about the election of Donald Trump by doing the best you could to publicize every sordid little detail of the Wikileaks data dumps that tumbled into your lap, then that’s what you did.
That’s what you did when everything was on the line. That’s how you decided, freely and consciously, to use your time and your very considerable talents. That’s what you chose to do at a moment of supreme moral and political crisis.
And that in its own small or perhaps not so small way is a tragedy.
And my dad's follow-up: "You have to understand that most people who voted for Trump weren't voting for Trump or what he said he'd do. They voted for Trump because he wasn't HER."
Uh-huh.
I did get to him when I said "your ex-wife DOES want what he said he'd do. And America just gave her everything she wanted.". "...that IS scary."
posted by delfin at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Uh-huh.
I did get to him when I said "your ex-wife DOES want what he said he'd do. And America just gave her everything she wanted.". "...that IS scary."
posted by delfin at 8:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh yeah, I got a lecture email from my mom (a Democrat!) about saying fuck on Facebook. I wrote back and said, "I am 46-fucking-years-old, Mother, and I will say fuck where and when I want."
She apologized.
Also I somehow have to reconcile myself with my father, who is staunchly Republican (and racist, even though he has black friends; yeah, he's THAT kind of racist), because they are moving states to be closer to me because they're elderly and I'm the only child they share so the care burden falls on me. I love and like my mother. I barely tolerate my father.
posted by cooker girl at 8:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
She apologized.
Also I somehow have to reconcile myself with my father, who is staunchly Republican (and racist, even though he has black friends; yeah, he's THAT kind of racist), because they are moving states to be closer to me because they're elderly and I'm the only child they share so the care burden falls on me. I love and like my mother. I barely tolerate my father.
posted by cooker girl at 8:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Let me show you an analogy here:
I saw someone say on twitter the other day that "you don't have to be a racist to support Trump, you just have to be okay with racism," and boy is that true.
Let's compare to the situation in Britain:
"You don't have to be an antisemite to support Corbyn, you just have to be okay with antisemitism."
Corbyn has not engaged in antisemitism, or used antisemitic dog whistles, but his willingness to share platforms with outright antisemites makes the following sentence true.
And also pointless. No Corbyn supporter will change his mind based on this. And no Trump supporter will change his mind based on the above.
posted by ocschwar at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I saw someone say on twitter the other day that "you don't have to be a racist to support Trump, you just have to be okay with racism," and boy is that true.
Let's compare to the situation in Britain:
"You don't have to be an antisemite to support Corbyn, you just have to be okay with antisemitism."
Corbyn has not engaged in antisemitism, or used antisemitic dog whistles, but his willingness to share platforms with outright antisemites makes the following sentence true.
And also pointless. No Corbyn supporter will change his mind based on this. And no Trump supporter will change his mind based on the above.
posted by ocschwar at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Leslie Knope Writes Letter to America Following Donald Trump’s Victory
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
I won't particularly care that the coming disaster is the GOP's fault when my primary concern will be caring for uninsured ill family members, finding a job when our economy goes into depression, worrying about the safety of non-white family members, etc.
What is comforting me (read: giving me a glimmer of hope) is that there is legal wrangling that has to happen for this to take place. What I am calling for is for the Democrats to make sure that legal wrangling goes on as long as possible, and is as difficult as possible, and that they fight on behalf of their constituents every step of the way.
And I am also pledging to be the same kind of roadblock myself, with advocacy and letter-writing and other citizen action.
We are not in the room where it happens right now. But maybe it's okay to not be in the room where it happens and stick to making a lot of noise outside the window. Because when the people inside the room end up not being able to do anything because they're gridlocked, then...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
What is comforting me (read: giving me a glimmer of hope) is that there is legal wrangling that has to happen for this to take place. What I am calling for is for the Democrats to make sure that legal wrangling goes on as long as possible, and is as difficult as possible, and that they fight on behalf of their constituents every step of the way.
And I am also pledging to be the same kind of roadblock myself, with advocacy and letter-writing and other citizen action.
We are not in the room where it happens right now. But maybe it's okay to not be in the room where it happens and stick to making a lot of noise outside the window. Because when the people inside the room end up not being able to do anything because they're gridlocked, then...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
What I am calling for is for the Democrats to make sure that legal wrangling goes on as long as possible, and is as difficult as possible, and that they fight on behalf of their constituents every step of the way.
Traditionally, the Democrats in Congress have not been very good at this sort of thing.
posted by drezdn at 8:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Traditionally, the Democrats in Congress have not been very good at this sort of thing.
posted by drezdn at 8:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sticking It Out in Donald Trump's America; Why Adam Gopnik isn’t returning to Canada: Citizenship is a complicated thing, and the claims made by the community near at hand will always feel far more compelling than those made by the country at large. There are illusions in this—sometimes learned, as the history of the Jews my family remain remind us painfully too late. Having the wisdom to know when to go home is crucial too. Yet the community made in New York, and the truth that our Canada loving children still know no other home than this, makes returning even to the better, colder country hard. Too soon to go home—but save us, if you would, a place at the table.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on November 10, 2016
Just checking in: this is the wrong time to rewatch Threads, right?
posted by pxe2000 at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Traditionally, the Democrats in Congress have not been very good at this sort of thing.
that's where we, the constituents who voted for Hillary, come in by holding their feet to the fire.
AND doing all of the other civic action we can, of course.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
that's where we, the constituents who voted for Hillary, come in by holding their feet to the fire.
AND doing all of the other civic action we can, of course.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Politico: Meet Trump's Cabinet-in-waiting. The names being bandied around.
posted by Kabanos at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Kabanos at 8:53 AM on November 10, 2016
N. K. Jemisin.
Her anger is more comforting to me than many things I have seen floating around social media about how oh, a President alone can't do every bad thing or oh, there's still a few months before the inauguration or oh, we collectively have survived atrocities and so surely we collectively can survive this.
posted by inconstant at 8:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Her anger is more comforting to me than many things I have seen floating around social media about how oh, a President alone can't do every bad thing or oh, there's still a few months before the inauguration or oh, we collectively have survived atrocities and so surely we collectively can survive this.
posted by inconstant at 8:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just checking in: this is the wrong time to rewatch Threads, right?
Recommend you find something more cheerful, like Black Mirror.
posted by ocschwar at 8:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Recommend you find something more cheerful, like Black Mirror.
posted by ocschwar at 8:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-transition/
"As part of that vetting, appointees were judged based on a loyalty test, a source told CNN. That included scouring potential appointees' social media accounts. Some people were weeded out for having been publicly critical of Trump in the past."
That trademarked Donald Trump backbone on display.
posted by ocschwar at 8:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
"As part of that vetting, appointees were judged based on a loyalty test, a source told CNN. That included scouring potential appointees' social media accounts. Some people were weeded out for having been publicly critical of Trump in the past."
That trademarked Donald Trump backbone on display.
posted by ocschwar at 8:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
A post-election letter by a fictional character with a fictional biography written by "Yahoo TV Staff" instead of the actual show's writers might just be the very worst of all the fanfics appearing throughout this entire election cycle.
It was written by the show's writers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It was written by the show's writers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ive been fueled by alcohol and righteous anger. I have lost family and friends. I will not be the good German whistling with his head down.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
Trump is considering the JP Morgan CEO for a Treasury Post.
Change!
posted by drezdn at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Change!
posted by drezdn at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
And call me cheesy if you must but Im getting a hell of a lot of strength from this song right now.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
After a very hard couple of days my partner has surprised me with her feelings of equanimity. Now she knows for sure that the barriers erected against her and her creeping sense of intruding in a male-dominated field were never in her imagination. The country sent a very clear message to women: you don't don't belong in the places of power and achievement. We're not listening to you. When you speak up for yourself it only makes us angrier.
She's realized that when she calls out microaggressions and sexism at work, her male colleagues just feel attacked and defensive, and nobody gains. I want to believe she's wrong but I don't know if I can. She's not giving up: she's going to continue to work and teach and live her life as an example and try to make a better world for people like her little sister, who's applying for college this year.
I don't know what I'm going to do myself. My own job, with which I've been increasingly disillusioned, is a product of the liberal internationalism that has just been soundly rejected and is manifestly heading for collapse. My colleagues are Lebanese and Colombian and Sri Lankan and Ethiopian - most of them are women, and many aren't US citizens. And while I largely interact with my coworkers via email, it's striking how everyone seems to be carrying on like nothing has happened. I don't know if it's professionalism or denial, but I can't envision my organization or anything like it existing a year from now.
When I was canvassing in Iowa last weekend I got a ride from Iowa City to Cedar Rapids from a Hillary staffer who had been working every day since February. (Also in the car was a woman from the Netherlands who had been in the country for three months solely to volunteer for the campaign, but that's another story.) Yesterday I thought about getting in touch with him - just to say "what can we do now? how can I fight?" - but I didn't, because I don't know what place the Democratic Party has in the face of a rising tide of nationalism and tribalism, a world that no longer values diversity, inclusion, or charity. It's not just white people - Duterte in the Philippines has risen to power on a platform of murdering "drug dealers" and antagonizing its neighbors. ISIS is another side of the same coin. The curtain is coming down on our long Weimar period. What can we possibly do other than support and cherish the people we love and do our best to survive?
posted by theodolite at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
She's realized that when she calls out microaggressions and sexism at work, her male colleagues just feel attacked and defensive, and nobody gains. I want to believe she's wrong but I don't know if I can. She's not giving up: she's going to continue to work and teach and live her life as an example and try to make a better world for people like her little sister, who's applying for college this year.
I don't know what I'm going to do myself. My own job, with which I've been increasingly disillusioned, is a product of the liberal internationalism that has just been soundly rejected and is manifestly heading for collapse. My colleagues are Lebanese and Colombian and Sri Lankan and Ethiopian - most of them are women, and many aren't US citizens. And while I largely interact with my coworkers via email, it's striking how everyone seems to be carrying on like nothing has happened. I don't know if it's professionalism or denial, but I can't envision my organization or anything like it existing a year from now.
When I was canvassing in Iowa last weekend I got a ride from Iowa City to Cedar Rapids from a Hillary staffer who had been working every day since February. (Also in the car was a woman from the Netherlands who had been in the country for three months solely to volunteer for the campaign, but that's another story.) Yesterday I thought about getting in touch with him - just to say "what can we do now? how can I fight?" - but I didn't, because I don't know what place the Democratic Party has in the face of a rising tide of nationalism and tribalism, a world that no longer values diversity, inclusion, or charity. It's not just white people - Duterte in the Philippines has risen to power on a platform of murdering "drug dealers" and antagonizing its neighbors. ISIS is another side of the same coin. The curtain is coming down on our long Weimar period. What can we possibly do other than support and cherish the people we love and do our best to survive?
posted by theodolite at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
As I've mentioned here on Metafilter before, I'm a converted conservative. It's been a long time now, but I still remember the mindset I had in those days. I didn't consider myself a racist and would have railed against being called racist at the time, but I now know my lack of awareness of my privilege was passively racist, as were many of my beliefs back then. I'm atoning for that. Thankfully my own progressive "enlightenment" came through patient folks who weren't confrontational or unwilling to engage with me. I'm 100% sure I would have resisted and rejected that approach.
In the days since, I've used the same approach on others and have successfully converted a few. (Interestingly, the most radical seem to make the most radical shifts) It doesn't work on all, or even most, but it does work if you're okay with small incremental successes along with lots of failures.
So yeah, it's just anecdotal data from one guy, but I thought I'd share. Fight them if that's what you want to do, but while you're looking for fights I'll be over here looking for solutions.
posted by rocket88 at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
In the days since, I've used the same approach on others and have successfully converted a few. (Interestingly, the most radical seem to make the most radical shifts) It doesn't work on all, or even most, but it does work if you're okay with small incremental successes along with lots of failures.
So yeah, it's just anecdotal data from one guy, but I thought I'd share. Fight them if that's what you want to do, but while you're looking for fights I'll be over here looking for solutions.
posted by rocket88 at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I just requested from my congress rep that she stay away from the inauguration, stay away from SOTU addresses, and not shake his hand.
posted by ocschwar at 8:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 8:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just as a clarification, 48% of the country did not elect DT.
231,556,622 eligible voters
46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump
posted by cooker girl at 8:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
231,556,622 eligible voters
46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump
posted by cooker girl at 8:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
The "Hillary Stole the Nomination, Bernie Would Have Won" stuff is coming fast and furious on my Facebook feed right now. I don't know if/how to handle it. I don't want to let it stand, I don't want to fight about it. I would just get off of Facebook, except that it's where I've been finding so much healthy collective grieving, and support and encouragement and good, challenging writing about racism and misogyny.
posted by BrashTech at 9:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by BrashTech at 9:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you don’t vote, you passively accept the result, whatever it is.
posted by pharm at 9:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pharm at 9:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing several takes about how Democrats in the future must nominate more populist candidates who can appeal to working-class whites... However, this seems to be fighting the last war. They're a shrinking share of the electorate, while minorities & college edu whites grow...
posted by drezdn at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Politico: Meet Trump's Cabinet-in-waiting. The names being bandied around.
Obviously all of those picks sound awful, and Rudy Giuliani as Attorney General could easily be the worst part of a Trump administration, but I'm shocked at the depth of terrible picks for Interior. Jan Brewer is probably only the third or fourth worst name on that list, and she's one of the worst people in America today.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Obviously all of those picks sound awful, and Rudy Giuliani as Attorney General could easily be the worst part of a Trump administration, but I'm shocked at the depth of terrible picks for Interior. Jan Brewer is probably only the third or fourth worst name on that list, and she's one of the worst people in America today.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Unless you're planning on non-electoral methods to oust Trump and the people he's bringing with him, calling the people who voted for him racists, and making your electoral efforts about them, is a path to reelecting him, or somebody worse than him.
You go to the polls with the electorate you have, not the one you wish you have. You can be righteous and right, or you can be in the Oval Office, getting something done.
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
Pick a candidate that gets the base fired up, and present that base with a platform and a plan to implement it that gets directly at the material circumstances of their lives, and the lives of many undecided or unengaged voters you'd like to pull into the coalition.
Nobody ever decided to vote Democrat because you called them racist n+1 times til they finally said "Welp, they're right about me." Get the votes first, get their lives fixed next. Racism just IS in America. It just is. It has changed, the effects have definitely lessened in some regards, and we've figured out ways to combat it that weren't available to us even 10 years ago. But it IS, and all the other isms ARE as well.
You can commit to being right about them, and calling people out as much as possible about them, or you can commit to winning a goddamn election on a platform that has broad support with a candidate who will actually be trusted to work towards that platform.
None of that was really even attempted by the DNC this cycle, at least not after the candidate was selected.
posted by turntraitor at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
You go to the polls with the electorate you have, not the one you wish you have. You can be righteous and right, or you can be in the Oval Office, getting something done.
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
Pick a candidate that gets the base fired up, and present that base with a platform and a plan to implement it that gets directly at the material circumstances of their lives, and the lives of many undecided or unengaged voters you'd like to pull into the coalition.
Nobody ever decided to vote Democrat because you called them racist n+1 times til they finally said "Welp, they're right about me." Get the votes first, get their lives fixed next. Racism just IS in America. It just is. It has changed, the effects have definitely lessened in some regards, and we've figured out ways to combat it that weren't available to us even 10 years ago. But it IS, and all the other isms ARE as well.
You can commit to being right about them, and calling people out as much as possible about them, or you can commit to winning a goddamn election on a platform that has broad support with a candidate who will actually be trusted to work towards that platform.
None of that was really even attempted by the DNC this cycle, at least not after the candidate was selected.
posted by turntraitor at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
But as a strategy to make Trump a one-term president, how smart would it be to start with the premise that 48% of the country are racists?
I really do not understand how to address institutional racism without naming it. I assume more than 48 percent of the population is racist, which is backed up by studies. I have never seen racism successfully addressed by refusing to acknowledge it.
posted by maxsparber at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
I really do not understand how to address institutional racism without naming it. I assume more than 48 percent of the population is racist, which is backed up by studies. I have never seen racism successfully addressed by refusing to acknowledge it.
posted by maxsparber at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
The sheer breathtaking arrogance of deriding POC for calling racism what it is while patting yourself on the back for being "converted".
I mean, it's not new and it's not surprising. But somehow I haven't yet managed to callus over that part of my psyche.
posted by inconstant at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
I mean, it's not new and it's not surprising. But somehow I haven't yet managed to callus over that part of my psyche.
posted by inconstant at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
This has been on my mind for much of the election. Important read.
Factiness
Some quotes:
"That people (people like me: white, coastal, liberal) were surprised by what happened last night should be read as a repudiation of the media we are consuming. We’re quick to call out right wing sites as harboring misinformation, but what is clear today is that the political press, the pundits, those providing you takes, and of course all that data, down to the tenth, are also implicated in the rise of misinformation. People spent months and months clicking on Fivethirtyeight, listening to podcasts, thinking they were being informed. Super informed. It was a massive and counterproductive waste. Something we needed to come to terms with even had Clinton won is that the right doesn’t have a monopoly on political fictions presented as fact."
"On the right, they have what Stephen Colbert called 'truthiness,' which we might define as ignoring facts in the name of some larger truth. The facts of Obama’s birthplace mattered less for them than their own racist 'truth' of white superiority. Perhaps we need to start articulating a left-wing version of truthiness: let’s call it 'factiness.' Factiness is the taste for the feel and aesthetic of 'facts,' often at the expense of missing the truth. From silly self-help-y TED talks to bad NPR-style neuroscience updates to wrapping ourselves in the misleading scientism of Fivethirtyeight statistics, factiness is obsessing over and covering ourselves in fact after fact while still missing bigger truths.
"Factiness appeals to the ideas of the objective, empirical, and the disinterested apprehension of reality. When philosopher Jean Baudrillard spoke of 'simulations', he wasn’t talking as much about places like Disneyland as much as how Disneyland obscures the fact that everything else is a simulation. And throughout the campaign, what’s called the mainstream media has been desperate to pretend everything outside Trumpland is real politics."
posted by naju at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
Factiness
Some quotes:
"That people (people like me: white, coastal, liberal) were surprised by what happened last night should be read as a repudiation of the media we are consuming. We’re quick to call out right wing sites as harboring misinformation, but what is clear today is that the political press, the pundits, those providing you takes, and of course all that data, down to the tenth, are also implicated in the rise of misinformation. People spent months and months clicking on Fivethirtyeight, listening to podcasts, thinking they were being informed. Super informed. It was a massive and counterproductive waste. Something we needed to come to terms with even had Clinton won is that the right doesn’t have a monopoly on political fictions presented as fact."
"On the right, they have what Stephen Colbert called 'truthiness,' which we might define as ignoring facts in the name of some larger truth. The facts of Obama’s birthplace mattered less for them than their own racist 'truth' of white superiority. Perhaps we need to start articulating a left-wing version of truthiness: let’s call it 'factiness.' Factiness is the taste for the feel and aesthetic of 'facts,' often at the expense of missing the truth. From silly self-help-y TED talks to bad NPR-style neuroscience updates to wrapping ourselves in the misleading scientism of Fivethirtyeight statistics, factiness is obsessing over and covering ourselves in fact after fact while still missing bigger truths.
"Factiness appeals to the ideas of the objective, empirical, and the disinterested apprehension of reality. When philosopher Jean Baudrillard spoke of 'simulations', he wasn’t talking as much about places like Disneyland as much as how Disneyland obscures the fact that everything else is a simulation. And throughout the campaign, what’s called the mainstream media has been desperate to pretend everything outside Trumpland is real politics."
posted by naju at 9:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
If you don’t vote, you passively accept the result, whatever it is.
I don't disagree with that but I think it's important that we recognize that "only" 25.5% of eligible voters actively voted for DT.
posted by cooker girl at 9:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't disagree with that but I think it's important that we recognize that "only" 25.5% of eligible voters actively voted for DT.
posted by cooker girl at 9:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Jason Kander
Wait, Jason Kander has a son named "True Kander"? That's something else.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Wait, Jason Kander has a son named "True Kander"? That's something else.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is the shocker to me: the New York Times diff(2012,2016) map with huge red vectors all over the rust belt. No conceivable accomplishment by the Trump gang can make those vectors stick and those voters are easily recoverable. The thing that bugs me is there is no way the Clinton team did not have the resources to hang onto PA, MI, and WI if only they had seen it coming.
Do not listen to Limbaugh now it will make you throw up but on Tuesday morning he said this might well be a repeat of 1980 when Carter led in the polls. He said: 1.) Trump has new voters which pollsters define as not likely and do not include and 2.) the energy at Trump's rallies is an order of magnitude larger than at Clinton's. This is anecdotal data, not real data. Nate Silver had by far the best data and the best coverage.
posted by bukvich at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Do not listen to Limbaugh now it will make you throw up but on Tuesday morning he said this might well be a repeat of 1980 when Carter led in the polls. He said: 1.) Trump has new voters which pollsters define as not likely and do not include and 2.) the energy at Trump's rallies is an order of magnitude larger than at Clinton's. This is anecdotal data, not real data. Nate Silver had by far the best data and the best coverage.
posted by bukvich at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
But as a strategy to make Trump a one-term president, how smart would it be to start with the premise that 48% of the country are racists? (Hint: Not very smart.) In a public debate, and especially when you feel strongly about something, you get to a point where you either get to be right, or get what you want. 48% of the country did a stupid thing, and some can be won back. But not if your premise is that they're scum.
Just think of the basket of deplorables thing. She was 100% right, but not only did it get her in trouble, it also didn't convince a single person to vote for her who wasn't going to already. Also think about how good Obama is at this kind of thing.
First off, it's 48% of the people who voted in this election, not 48% of the country.
More importantly, though, your logic is flawed, because it only focuses on the idea that calling out racism can lose votes of racists. It does not consider that calling out racism can gain the votes of people who respond to that message.
In this particular election, with this particular electoral system and this particular candidate, this was not the winning strategy. That is one data point. At the same time, a vote from a Latino in Florida who's worried about being deported was equal in importance to the vote of a white former assembly line worker in Michigan. I strongly reject this idea that the left can only win by reaching out to voters who aren't receptive in general to progressive politics just because they happen to be the demographic that the media chose to focus on.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just think of the basket of deplorables thing. She was 100% right, but not only did it get her in trouble, it also didn't convince a single person to vote for her who wasn't going to already. Also think about how good Obama is at this kind of thing.
First off, it's 48% of the people who voted in this election, not 48% of the country.
More importantly, though, your logic is flawed, because it only focuses on the idea that calling out racism can lose votes of racists. It does not consider that calling out racism can gain the votes of people who respond to that message.
In this particular election, with this particular electoral system and this particular candidate, this was not the winning strategy. That is one data point. At the same time, a vote from a Latino in Florida who's worried about being deported was equal in importance to the vote of a white former assembly line worker in Michigan. I strongly reject this idea that the left can only win by reaching out to voters who aren't receptive in general to progressive politics just because they happen to be the demographic that the media chose to focus on.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Chris Hayes: More and more evidence accruing that Comey played a huge, possibly decisive role. Though like I said yesterday so did 20 other things.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
So the thing that I do AT the IRC is that I'm an HR data-processing monkey, and I work with a lot of HR offices in other countries. So I'm on Skype with people in Thailand and Abidjan and such daily.
The guy in Abidjan and I just had a very long Skype talk about the election that got fascinating. He was asking whether part of it was because people in the US aren't ready to have a woman as a leader. I said maybe in part, but also...
And I couched a lot of this in personal opinion, but told him a lot about the corporate dominance of the economy and how that's been mucking things up. I actually compared it all to "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street", and compared the corporate interests to the martians who turn the rest of us against each other. I also told him about Citizens United and how that went down. (I may have broken his brain a little with that one.) But he absolutely was down with the "wait, so the people who have all the money right now have the power to influence the message..." concept.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The guy in Abidjan and I just had a very long Skype talk about the election that got fascinating. He was asking whether part of it was because people in the US aren't ready to have a woman as a leader. I said maybe in part, but also...
And I couched a lot of this in personal opinion, but told him a lot about the corporate dominance of the economy and how that's been mucking things up. I actually compared it all to "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street", and compared the corporate interests to the martians who turn the rest of us against each other. I also told him about Citizens United and how that went down. (I may have broken his brain a little with that one.) But he absolutely was down with the "wait, so the people who have all the money right now have the power to influence the message..." concept.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
As one of no doubt many gen-xers here, who lived through Reagan and the Bushes, this feels all too familiar. I'm so tired, and I haven't even done anything--I cannot imagine how our actual do-ers and fighters feel right now. Just, fuck.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
@AriBerman: Trump won Wisconsin by 27,000 votes. For perspective, 300,000 registered voters in WI lacked strict voter ID
@AriBerman: Voter turnout in Wisconsin at lowest level in 20 years & down 15% in Milwaukee, where 70% black voters live
Voter suppression works. The GOP now has control of 23 state legislations. And the GOP, with Trump, will take control of the Supreme Court, possibly for the rest of my life. Voting rights will continued to be attacked throughout this country.
For some people, protesting on the streets is the only way for their voices to be heard. Protest is going to be important in the coming years, as the people who control our government have shown their contempt for democracy when democracy doesn't go their way. This is a country where a bunch of white people think Black Lives Matter are terrorists, and those white people have a leader who just got elected president.
posted by airish at 9:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
@AriBerman: Voter turnout in Wisconsin at lowest level in 20 years & down 15% in Milwaukee, where 70% black voters live
Voter suppression works. The GOP now has control of 23 state legislations. And the GOP, with Trump, will take control of the Supreme Court, possibly for the rest of my life. Voting rights will continued to be attacked throughout this country.
For some people, protesting on the streets is the only way for their voices to be heard. Protest is going to be important in the coming years, as the people who control our government have shown their contempt for democracy when democracy doesn't go their way. This is a country where a bunch of white people think Black Lives Matter are terrorists, and those white people have a leader who just got elected president.
posted by airish at 9:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [56 favorites]
So yeah, it's just anecdotal data from one guy, but I thought I'd share. Fight them if that's what you want to do, but while you're looking for fights I'll be over here looking for solutions.
That's nice and all, but women, POC, LGBTQIA people have been told for years, literally decades, that if they just pipe down, talk nice, ask politely, that we'll win 'em over in the end. We've been told by straight white guy liberals that they'll get to us when they're done getting everything they want. We've had the polite Christmases where you don't tell your brother what a racist fuckhead he is but you smile and do the dishes because your mum wants everything to stay pleasant and its fucking bullshit and we're tired of it.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [106 favorites]
That's nice and all, but women, POC, LGBTQIA people have been told for years, literally decades, that if they just pipe down, talk nice, ask politely, that we'll win 'em over in the end. We've been told by straight white guy liberals that they'll get to us when they're done getting everything they want. We've had the polite Christmases where you don't tell your brother what a racist fuckhead he is but you smile and do the dishes because your mum wants everything to stay pleasant and its fucking bullshit and we're tired of it.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [106 favorites]
The sheer breathtaking arrogance of deriding POC for calling racism what it is while patting yourself on the back for being "converted".
Maybe that's how I came across (I don't claim to be the goodest communicator) but I don't pat myself on the back. I have no standing to tell PoC how to react to racism and I know that.
But I personally see successes from my approach and I will continue to pursue them.
posted by rocket88 at 9:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe that's how I came across (I don't claim to be the goodest communicator) but I don't pat myself on the back. I have no standing to tell PoC how to react to racism and I know that.
But I personally see successes from my approach and I will continue to pursue them.
posted by rocket88 at 9:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The thing that bugs me is there is no way the Clinton team did not have the resources to hang onto PA, MI, and WI if only they had seen it coming.
I believe that the post-mortems and interviews with her campaign people will show that they did see it coming early on, but chose to focus on FL, PA, and NC where they felt they had the same amount of gettable votes, but didn't have to alter their message so much to appeal to the non-college white Rust Belt audience that it would hurt them in other states.
You can't run fifty individual campaigns. People have Internet. It looks to me that the Clinton team chose a balance of a coherent campaign message and getting out the vote in areas where that message would resonate. It failed. That doesn't mean it was wrong.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
I believe that the post-mortems and interviews with her campaign people will show that they did see it coming early on, but chose to focus on FL, PA, and NC where they felt they had the same amount of gettable votes, but didn't have to alter their message so much to appeal to the non-college white Rust Belt audience that it would hurt them in other states.
You can't run fifty individual campaigns. People have Internet. It looks to me that the Clinton team chose a balance of a coherent campaign message and getting out the vote in areas where that message would resonate. It failed. That doesn't mean it was wrong.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
And no Trump supporter will change his mind based on the above.
I care very little about changing Trump supporters' minds. If other people want to do the work, more power to them, but it is not a priority for me.
I care far more about demonstrating to people of color, LGBTQ people, immigrants, women, and religious minorities that they are not alone, that there is a place for them in America's halls of power. One of the ways that I demonstrate that care is by not pretending racism, misogyny, and xenophobia are about economics.
I would rather build a Democratic Party coalition worthy of the support of the folks Trump explicitly and repeatedly campaigned against than somehow coddle lazy racists out of voting for racism.
posted by palindromic at 9:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
I care very little about changing Trump supporters' minds. If other people want to do the work, more power to them, but it is not a priority for me.
I care far more about demonstrating to people of color, LGBTQ people, immigrants, women, and religious minorities that they are not alone, that there is a place for them in America's halls of power. One of the ways that I demonstrate that care is by not pretending racism, misogyny, and xenophobia are about economics.
I would rather build a Democratic Party coalition worthy of the support of the folks Trump explicitly and repeatedly campaigned against than somehow coddle lazy racists out of voting for racism.
posted by palindromic at 9:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
Well apparently my link got borked. You can find the New York Times diff map here.
Sorry!
posted by bukvich at 9:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry!
posted by bukvich at 9:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I care far more about demonstrating to people of color, LGBTQ people, immigrants, women, and religious minorities that they are not alone, that there is a place for them in America's halls of power
Why would you want to tell them that?
There is NOT a place for them in America's halls of power today. Don't say it until it's true.
posted by ocschwar at 9:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The "Hillary Stole the Nomination, Bernie Would Have Won" stuff is coming fast and furious on my Facebook feed right now. I don't know if/how to handle it. I don't want to let it stand, I don't want to fight about it. I would just get off of Facebook, except that it's where I've been finding so much healthy collective grieving, and support and encouragement and good, challenging writing about racism and misogyny.
I've just hidden a few people for now. You can just turn them off for a bit and not have to see them. Then if your ready to engage later you can just turn them back on.
posted by Jalliah at 9:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the ways to be a converted conservative or whatever is to listen to PoC and follow their lead.
Passive racists led to Trump being elected. We can't do this alone, we need white liberals' support. There are so many of you and you refuse to stand up when it counts.
posted by zutalors! at 9:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
Passive racists led to Trump being elected. We can't do this alone, we need white liberals' support. There are so many of you and you refuse to stand up when it counts.
posted by zutalors! at 9:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
It is clear that the GOP choose power over country and democracy. This naked desire for power is why I will never vote Republican.
In a related thought, I have been telling people for years that the prolife movement was a figleaf for power over women. Maybe they will believe me now.
posted by Gadgetenvy at 9:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
In a related thought, I have been telling people for years that the prolife movement was a figleaf for power over women. Maybe they will believe me now.
posted by Gadgetenvy at 9:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
That included scouring potential appointees' social media accounts. Some people were weeded out for having been publicly critical of Trump in the past."
When Giuliani said he was going back to Andrew Jackson, I had no idea he meant the spoils system.
posted by corb at 9:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
When Giuliani said he was going back to Andrew Jackson, I had no idea he meant the spoils system.
posted by corb at 9:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
What really absolutely fucking pisses me off so fucking goddamn much is how trans people were thrown off the equality bus FOR DECADES with the promise of "we owe you a solid" and NOW IT'S TOO FUCKING LATE, ASSHOLES.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
Nobody ever decided to vote Democrat because you called them racist n+1 times til they finally said "Welp, they're right about me."
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
posted by scantee at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [46 favorites]
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
posted by scantee at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [46 favorites]
I still can't get over the fact Trump was a candidate who boasted about sexual assault and was elected into office. If, as is apparent, the electorate is okay with that, how in the world do you reach them? What kind of campaigning would have swayed them? It's not about MI or WI or PA. It's about an utter repudiation of the social contract that keeps us women and minorities safe.
posted by lydhre at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 9:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [61 favorites]
Unless you're planning on non-electoral methods to oust Trump and the people he's bringing with him, calling the people who voted for him racists, and making your electoral efforts about them, is a path to reelecting him, or somebody worse than him.
It shouldn't need to be said that we're speaking a different language here on metafilter than we do when we're canvassing, campaigning, talking with family, doing the social change and reconciliation process. I don't go into conversations and say "you're a homophobe." I go into conversations and say, "this is how I'm affected by these issues as a queer person." That said, the Republican party has a long history of using FUD as a wedge issue in electoral politics, and that IS homophobia.
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
WE FUCKING HAD THAT. Go back, listen to the third debate where Clinton presented clear policy ideas and Trump offered nothing but FUD and snake oil. WE HAD THAT, and we had that in 2006 and 2008 when Republican economic policy created a crisis. You can disagree with those policy ideas, but you can't come in here after the fact and claim they never existed.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [75 favorites]
It shouldn't need to be said that we're speaking a different language here on metafilter than we do when we're canvassing, campaigning, talking with family, doing the social change and reconciliation process. I don't go into conversations and say "you're a homophobe." I go into conversations and say, "this is how I'm affected by these issues as a queer person." That said, the Republican party has a long history of using FUD as a wedge issue in electoral politics, and that IS homophobia.
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
WE FUCKING HAD THAT. Go back, listen to the third debate where Clinton presented clear policy ideas and Trump offered nothing but FUD and snake oil. WE HAD THAT, and we had that in 2006 and 2008 when Republican economic policy created a crisis. You can disagree with those policy ideas, but you can't come in here after the fact and claim they never existed.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [75 favorites]
Trump's website, greatagain.gov, has a big button on it called "Share Your Ideas" where it asks you to tell him how to make America great again.
Personally I think that the entire populace of Metafilter should *ATTACK* that box and each person should tell him in no uncertain terms that we do NOT stand for institutionalized racism and *phobia. Crash his server like we crashed ours.
posted by telepanda at 9:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
Personally I think that the entire populace of Metafilter should *ATTACK* that box and each person should tell him in no uncertain terms that we do NOT stand for institutionalized racism and *phobia. Crash his server like we crashed ours.
posted by telepanda at 9:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
As far as potential Cabinet picks, I am actually surprised not to see Scott Walker in the mix for Labor or James Inhofe for EPA.
posted by SisterHavana at 9:17 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by SisterHavana at 9:17 AM on November 10, 2016
Nobody ever decided to vote Democrat because you called them racist n+1 times til they finally said "Welp, they're right about me."
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
Thank you, scantee, this is kind of what I was trying to say.
posted by rocket88 at 9:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
Thank you, scantee, this is kind of what I was trying to say.
posted by rocket88 at 9:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
There is NOT a place for them in America's halls of power today. Don't say it until it's true.
There is a place for them (us) in the Democratic Party, one of the two major pipelines to political power in the US. That will be less true if Dems fail to rebuke racism and misogyny in hopes of converting some white voters. Just because Dems are out of federal power now does not mean that will always be the case. The Democratic Party needs to demonstrate to members of those groups that they will not be discarded because of this loss.
posted by palindromic at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is a place for them (us) in the Democratic Party, one of the two major pipelines to political power in the US. That will be less true if Dems fail to rebuke racism and misogyny in hopes of converting some white voters. Just because Dems are out of federal power now does not mean that will always be the case. The Democratic Party needs to demonstrate to members of those groups that they will not be discarded because of this loss.
posted by palindromic at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
President Obama is about to to the press after meeting with president-elect Donald Trump
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016
This is my world. This is what I get to savor now.
"We see you."
"Now we don't"
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
"We see you."
"Now we don't"
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
No. Think in your head and say something that WORKS for that audience. Not something that validates your self image. And not something that positively supports the lives and rights of people who are not in the audience at that moment. Something that works for that audience.
Always be closing.
Always. Be. Closing.
You want to win elections? CLOSE.
posted by ocschwar at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
No. Think in your head and say something that WORKS for that audience. Not something that validates your self image. And not something that positively supports the lives and rights of people who are not in the audience at that moment. Something that works for that audience.
Always be closing.
Always. Be. Closing.
You want to win elections? CLOSE.
posted by ocschwar at 9:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've begun the great FB culling, starting with some very close relatives endlessly posting TrumpGloat. Calling them out in person would be more effective and I am thus not wasting energy on graring their posts, hidden or not.
When my mother posted a lol post asking if we would still visit them in Tampa since Florida voted Trump, I bluntly replied that there was no way in hell I would risk relocating back with my foreign husband and my half foreign daughters for the duration of his time in office. Normally liking everything in sight by me and my friends within 5 seconds of it being posted, she hasn't made a peep since. I'm enjoying the silence.
On the plus side, I will no longer have Italians saying "You're American? Why do you want to live here in Italy!?" The other side of that coin is that 8 years of explaining GWB is going to look like a mother fucking cake walk in comparison.
I've decided I've put off getting my Italian citizenship for too long. I'll be applying soon so that I can vote for affecting where my children's most immediate future will be.
And i will stop slacking on absentee balloting non-presidential elections for the US county where I am registered.
I'm done doing the emotional labour of mollycoddling people who make racist, misogynist, bigoted or just plain privileged statements. I'm whiter than pale, cis, mostly het, a raised catholic atheist and I'm officially motherfucking over it; I can't even imagine the level of exhaustion, despair and rage you directly interested peeps fighting against discrimination are feeling right now.
I can handle calling out friends and family. Out in the wild though, my brain tends to shut down my foreign language skills and just sputter in blind rage in such situations, and i end up biting my tongue until it bleeds lest I make things worse. If anyone has resources or scripts that are useful for a tiny white chick to use when calling out this shit in the wild and staying safe at the same time, I'd greatly appreciate it.
posted by romakimmy at 9:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
When my mother posted a lol post asking if we would still visit them in Tampa since Florida voted Trump, I bluntly replied that there was no way in hell I would risk relocating back with my foreign husband and my half foreign daughters for the duration of his time in office. Normally liking everything in sight by me and my friends within 5 seconds of it being posted, she hasn't made a peep since. I'm enjoying the silence.
On the plus side, I will no longer have Italians saying "You're American? Why do you want to live here in Italy!?" The other side of that coin is that 8 years of explaining GWB is going to look like a mother fucking cake walk in comparison.
I've decided I've put off getting my Italian citizenship for too long. I'll be applying soon so that I can vote for affecting where my children's most immediate future will be.
And i will stop slacking on absentee balloting non-presidential elections for the US county where I am registered.
I'm done doing the emotional labour of mollycoddling people who make racist, misogynist, bigoted or just plain privileged statements. I'm whiter than pale, cis, mostly het, a raised catholic atheist and I'm officially motherfucking over it; I can't even imagine the level of exhaustion, despair and rage you directly interested peeps fighting against discrimination are feeling right now.
I can handle calling out friends and family. Out in the wild though, my brain tends to shut down my foreign language skills and just sputter in blind rage in such situations, and i end up biting my tongue until it bleeds lest I make things worse. If anyone has resources or scripts that are useful for a tiny white chick to use when calling out this shit in the wild and staying safe at the same time, I'd greatly appreciate it.
posted by romakimmy at 9:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
When Giuliani said he was going back to Andrew Jackson, I had no idea he meant the spoils system.
Honestly when Giuliani said that, I think that might be the strongest I've ever agreed with him. Donald Trump want to be Andrew Jackson; the Trail of Tears might as well be his immigration policy.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Honestly when Giuliani said that, I think that might be the strongest I've ever agreed with him. Donald Trump want to be Andrew Jackson; the Trail of Tears might as well be his immigration policy.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:21 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nobody ever decided to vote Democrat because you called them racist n+1 times til they finally said "Welp, they're right about me."
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
Thanks. I've just realized that there may be a miscommunication around my fairly hardline stance on calling it out vs engaging, means always starting the conversation with 'Hey you're a racist. Hey that's racist. As in always using the specific word. It doesn't mean that.
posted by Jalliah at 9:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fine, don't use the word racist then. Think in your head and say something that avoids that terminology and positively supports the lives and rights of people of color.
White folks apparently need to start a list of basic phrases they can use to positively confront racism in their every day lives, that avoid actually using the terms "racist" or "racism." Here, I'll start:
"Please don't talk about African-Americans like that in front of me. I care about them as people and I don't want to hear of them spoken of like that."
Thanks. I've just realized that there may be a miscommunication around my fairly hardline stance on calling it out vs engaging, means always starting the conversation with 'Hey you're a racist. Hey that's racist. As in always using the specific word. It doesn't mean that.
posted by Jalliah at 9:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't advocate calling people racists, or racist-supporters, for voting for Trump. I do advocate not spending time with them - not being half-smile friendly at work, not agreeing to go to gatherings where they're present, unfriending them on social media, hanging up when they call. ("Can't talk now; have to go." Not even, "sorry about that.")
For those in jobs where appearing friendly is required, they're in a bind. They'll have to decide whether it's worth putting their careers at risk by not Playing Nice With Douchebags, which has always been women's problem in the workplace. There are ways to manage the minimum "nice" with some people in the office while being as friendly and cooperative as is natural with other, but it's still risky.
And wait. Don't argue, don't offer explanations, don't reach out. Wait for them to ask, "hey are you avoiding me?" At which point, they can say, "Yes - you supported the guy who wants to deport my friends/allow rapists to control their victims' lives/weasel out of our promises to other nations/ignore the growing damage to our planet/etc." (Pick one; no one conversation should hold all of them.) Flat voice, slightly puzzled look, with a tone of, "it's obvious," like you were saying, "Yeah, I'm avoiding you - you're wearing a dead rat around your neck. Who wouldn't?"
This is not a quick, win-the-argument plan. There is no argument to win, here. This is a basic, I don't want to waste my valued and limited emotional energy on people who want to destroy the world I want to live in.
Expect to hear, "but Hillary!" followed by a buzzword: Corporate corruption, emails, not-Bernie, etc. Or, "but it won't be so bad, because _____." And then, you can shrug, and say, "I disagree, because he wants to [repeat point]. And I don't want to spend time with people who think that's okay."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
For those in jobs where appearing friendly is required, they're in a bind. They'll have to decide whether it's worth putting their careers at risk by not Playing Nice With Douchebags, which has always been women's problem in the workplace. There are ways to manage the minimum "nice" with some people in the office while being as friendly and cooperative as is natural with other, but it's still risky.
And wait. Don't argue, don't offer explanations, don't reach out. Wait for them to ask, "hey are you avoiding me?" At which point, they can say, "Yes - you supported the guy who wants to deport my friends/allow rapists to control their victims' lives/weasel out of our promises to other nations/ignore the growing damage to our planet/etc." (Pick one; no one conversation should hold all of them.) Flat voice, slightly puzzled look, with a tone of, "it's obvious," like you were saying, "Yeah, I'm avoiding you - you're wearing a dead rat around your neck. Who wouldn't?"
This is not a quick, win-the-argument plan. There is no argument to win, here. This is a basic, I don't want to waste my valued and limited emotional energy on people who want to destroy the world I want to live in.
Expect to hear, "but Hillary!" followed by a buzzword: Corporate corruption, emails, not-Bernie, etc. Or, "but it won't be so bad, because _____." And then, you can shrug, and say, "I disagree, because he wants to [repeat point]. And I don't want to spend time with people who think that's okay."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
No. Think in your head and say something that WORKS for that audience. Not something that validates your self image. And not something that positively supports the lives and rights of people who are not in the audience at that moment. Something that works for that audience.
Please do give me an example of how to confront everyday racism in a way that also supports the lives and rights of white people. I'm all ears.
posted by scantee at 9:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Please do give me an example of how to confront everyday racism in a way that also supports the lives and rights of white people. I'm all ears.
posted by scantee at 9:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
FWIW with regard to "racist" I like to say "hey, that sounds casually racist..." then go into it from there. I'm a white chick, though, POC, feel free to get as righteously pissed as you need to be.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:25 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:25 AM on November 10, 2016
I'd been too numb with shock to really feel anything except confusion and dismay since the election results were announced. Until just now, when I heard my wife pull my stepdaughter aside and tell her, "Listen to me. Don't tell ANYONE at school you're half Lebanese. Anybody asks, you're German [her father's ethnicity]." So yeah, I'm crying right now.
posted by Rykey at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 9:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
Their primary concern, as has repeatedly been demonstrated, was a loss of status as white people. What platform do you suggest the Democratic Party come up with to address this?
The Democratic Part had a platform to address poverty. It had, and has, successfully addressed the budget. Clinton had platforms for everything.
We cannot successfully address this until we admit what was at the center of this race, the rise of white nationalism. This is the cry of a previously privileged people who see their privilege slipping.
What Clinton got wrong was that she thought if she pointed out Trump was a racist, a plurality of Americans would reject racism. She did not realize just how many Americans would say, racism, sign me up!
Race remains the great unaddressed original sin of America, and now we're being told, again and again, that it must not be named, it must not be addressed, that it is something else, it must be something else.
It's not something else. I mean, there are other concerns, of course, but Trump's campaign wasn't really about those. It was about demonizing non-whites. He specifically targeted Mexicans, Muslims, and the American black community. He got digs in at everyone else who could be othered, of course -- women, Jews, etc. But it was all about establishing who real America is, and identifying the threats to that real America, and by doing so restoring America to its previous position of greatness. And a majority of the rhetoric was explicitly, unambiguously racist.
I mean, for Christ's sakes, if the real, material concerns of Trump voters was economic, they would have attacked banks. They attacked Muslims, black people, Asians, etc. The celebratory war whoop of the Trump vanguard has been hate crimes.
They've told us what they want. We should believe them, because we're not going to change anything by pretending, oh, actually it was about trade deals, actually it was about rising health care costs.
It was about race. It was about racism. We have a large number of racists in this country, and that's the national sin that must be addressed bluntly and clearly.
posted by maxsparber at 9:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [110 favorites]
Their primary concern, as has repeatedly been demonstrated, was a loss of status as white people. What platform do you suggest the Democratic Party come up with to address this?
The Democratic Part had a platform to address poverty. It had, and has, successfully addressed the budget. Clinton had platforms for everything.
We cannot successfully address this until we admit what was at the center of this race, the rise of white nationalism. This is the cry of a previously privileged people who see their privilege slipping.
What Clinton got wrong was that she thought if she pointed out Trump was a racist, a plurality of Americans would reject racism. She did not realize just how many Americans would say, racism, sign me up!
Race remains the great unaddressed original sin of America, and now we're being told, again and again, that it must not be named, it must not be addressed, that it is something else, it must be something else.
It's not something else. I mean, there are other concerns, of course, but Trump's campaign wasn't really about those. It was about demonizing non-whites. He specifically targeted Mexicans, Muslims, and the American black community. He got digs in at everyone else who could be othered, of course -- women, Jews, etc. But it was all about establishing who real America is, and identifying the threats to that real America, and by doing so restoring America to its previous position of greatness. And a majority of the rhetoric was explicitly, unambiguously racist.
I mean, for Christ's sakes, if the real, material concerns of Trump voters was economic, they would have attacked banks. They attacked Muslims, black people, Asians, etc. The celebratory war whoop of the Trump vanguard has been hate crimes.
They've told us what they want. We should believe them, because we're not going to change anything by pretending, oh, actually it was about trade deals, actually it was about rising health care costs.
It was about race. It was about racism. We have a large number of racists in this country, and that's the national sin that must be addressed bluntly and clearly.
posted by maxsparber at 9:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [110 favorites]
No. Think in your head and say something that WORKS for that audience.
Apparently, the solution to thinking before you say something (i.e., being politically correct), is to...think before you say something.
C'mon, man. The truth is it doesn't matter what we say or how we say it. They're minds are made up. They may say they appreciate candor, blunt talk, or "telling it like it is", but they don't.
posted by FJT at 9:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Apparently, the solution to thinking before you say something (i.e., being politically correct), is to...think before you say something.
C'mon, man. The truth is it doesn't matter what we say or how we say it. They're minds are made up. They may say they appreciate candor, blunt talk, or "telling it like it is", but they don't.
posted by FJT at 9:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't think the election result (as awful as it is, which is hella awful) is too much more complicated than "low turnout sunk Clinton." She got 6m fewer votes than Obama did in 2012 (Trump got a few hundred thousand less than Romney did, too). Voter suppression contributed to that, but I think more it was the general shitshow nature of the whole campaign season which kept a lot of votes on the sidelines.
The reported nervousness from the Clinton campaign on election day was maybe the result of them following the turnout numbers early in the day and doing the math. High turnout usually favors Democrats, low turnout favors the GOP.
posted by notyou at 9:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The reported nervousness from the Clinton campaign on election day was maybe the result of them following the turnout numbers early in the day and doing the math. High turnout usually favors Democrats, low turnout favors the GOP.
posted by notyou at 9:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Again, on the recrimination/blame front: when the candidate loses a few swing states by 1 point, almost everything is the cause:
• Electoral college
• Comey
• Polling errors
• Being a woman
• Being establishment
• Third-party voting
• Etc, etc.
There are a dozen things that probably contributed at least a half-point and therefore might have flipped the election. Focusing on the binary outcome is not the way to think about how to improve next time, or even to think about how it might have been improved last time, since almost anything will be the answer, and people will just pick and choose the ideas they most prefer politically. What really matters is figuring out what, if anything, will make a big difference, not a small difference. But I honestly doubt anything would have. A dozen coin flips could have gone the other way and swung the election for her. But absent a very, very different counter-factual history, things would have come out close to the same, vote-wise.
Which is to say, she out-performed the economic models by 4 points. She lost a game originally designed to preserve slavery, and currently rigged to preserve conservative power, by a hair. And she won the popular vote. The outcome is terrible, and I myself would have liked a more populist left campaign. But there's no active evidence that that would have made a big difference given the overwhelming power of partisanship, and it's meaningless to say it would have flipped the election, because almost anything would have. She played almost all her cards right, and lost. It sucks, but the outcome actually tells us very little we didn't already know about America and electoral politics. Which is to say, as polarization increases, slightly less than half of America is getting worse, and slightly more than half of America continues to get better and better.
posted by chortly at 9:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
• Electoral college
• Comey
• Polling errors
• Being a woman
• Being establishment
• Third-party voting
• Etc, etc.
There are a dozen things that probably contributed at least a half-point and therefore might have flipped the election. Focusing on the binary outcome is not the way to think about how to improve next time, or even to think about how it might have been improved last time, since almost anything will be the answer, and people will just pick and choose the ideas they most prefer politically. What really matters is figuring out what, if anything, will make a big difference, not a small difference. But I honestly doubt anything would have. A dozen coin flips could have gone the other way and swung the election for her. But absent a very, very different counter-factual history, things would have come out close to the same, vote-wise.
Which is to say, she out-performed the economic models by 4 points. She lost a game originally designed to preserve slavery, and currently rigged to preserve conservative power, by a hair. And she won the popular vote. The outcome is terrible, and I myself would have liked a more populist left campaign. But there's no active evidence that that would have made a big difference given the overwhelming power of partisanship, and it's meaningless to say it would have flipped the election, because almost anything would have. She played almost all her cards right, and lost. It sucks, but the outcome actually tells us very little we didn't already know about America and electoral politics. Which is to say, as polarization increases, slightly less than half of America is getting worse, and slightly more than half of America continues to get better and better.
posted by chortly at 9:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [40 favorites]
This article is looking pretty prescient now:
Is Donald Trump Outflanking Hillary Clinton?posted by crazy with stars at 9:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Democratic nominee faces the risk that she has overestimated her hold on the states most central to her strategy...
Put another way, as Clinton has focused her time and money primarily on swing and Republican-leaning states, the question looming over her campaign is whether she has left herself open to a flanking maneuver from Trump in any of the seemingly safe Democratic states that he is now targeting—key among them Colorado, Michigan, and Wisconsin. “For a Republican nominee to breach the ‘blue wall’ of Wisconsin and Michigan, they need to invest in those states and hope for a national tide to come in,” said Brent McGoldrick, the co-founder of the Republican voter-targeting firm Deep Root Analytics. “It’s possible she left herself open to that breach.”
Libby Anne: Meet the Inspiring New Women in Congress:
posted by palindromic at 9:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
We may not have a woman president this time around, but we do have inspiring new female lawmakers, many of them immigrants or the children of immigrants. These women will be in Congress when Trump sets about building his wall, among other things, and while they may not be able to stop him (that remains to be seen), they will certainly put up a fight. We couldn’t ask for better role models for our daughters.These women represent the kind of Democratic Party I am interested in working with.
posted by palindromic at 9:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
A living google document for trans people on what we all need to do prior to January 20th.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
This argument about do-I-call-it-racist, do-I-not-call-it-racist...I think it's really about two things and they don't necessarily line up with each other.
Is it just to call people racists for various things? I don't think it's valuable to litigate each and every circumstance in which it is ever said. I'm sure it is often both justified and feels really fucking good to call out. There's value in not having to do the dance of not-injuring-feelings that people usually do, especially that POC usually have to do, in order to get their ideas heard. There's value for the person calling out the racist BS. That is where the value is.
But saying that hardens people and often causes them to double down. It just does. There's lots and lots of research on that that has been on the blue a bunch of times, that when you confront people directly, it forces them to identify more strongly with their stance. When you call someone a racist, sure, sometimes they can be reached, but sometimes it makes them more okay with being racist. Is that just? No. Is it fair? Fuck no. But it is what it is.
At the same time, it's really shitty to ask people who are already all fucked up by this and may get rounded up and put in camps to do the slow gentle walk because it's really hard and all their spoons are taken up by surviving.
So white people, this is all on you. It is just plain not as important for you. I don't care how big an ally you are, it is just not as important to you as it is to the people who are going to suffer from it. You, unlike the people affected, can actually choke down your feelings today and do the slow walk of "Do you really think all Hispanic people should be deported? Do you really think all Muslims should be denied entry? That...doesn't sound like the America I believe in. Is that really what you feel?" You guys can do it, because even the veryvery best of you are still affected by it less and so have more reserves. And we need you to do it, because the slow walk is the most effective and because 60 million people who are okay with racism are not going to die tomorrow and you can't just wait for them to go away.
posted by corb at 9:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [86 favorites]
Is it just to call people racists for various things? I don't think it's valuable to litigate each and every circumstance in which it is ever said. I'm sure it is often both justified and feels really fucking good to call out. There's value in not having to do the dance of not-injuring-feelings that people usually do, especially that POC usually have to do, in order to get their ideas heard. There's value for the person calling out the racist BS. That is where the value is.
But saying that hardens people and often causes them to double down. It just does. There's lots and lots of research on that that has been on the blue a bunch of times, that when you confront people directly, it forces them to identify more strongly with their stance. When you call someone a racist, sure, sometimes they can be reached, but sometimes it makes them more okay with being racist. Is that just? No. Is it fair? Fuck no. But it is what it is.
At the same time, it's really shitty to ask people who are already all fucked up by this and may get rounded up and put in camps to do the slow gentle walk because it's really hard and all their spoons are taken up by surviving.
So white people, this is all on you. It is just plain not as important for you. I don't care how big an ally you are, it is just not as important to you as it is to the people who are going to suffer from it. You, unlike the people affected, can actually choke down your feelings today and do the slow walk of "Do you really think all Hispanic people should be deported? Do you really think all Muslims should be denied entry? That...doesn't sound like the America I believe in. Is that really what you feel?" You guys can do it, because even the veryvery best of you are still affected by it less and so have more reserves. And we need you to do it, because the slow walk is the most effective and because 60 million people who are okay with racism are not going to die tomorrow and you can't just wait for them to go away.
posted by corb at 9:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [86 favorites]
And on the other hand. Us white people need to get over ourselves when POC, use plain speech on her own blog addressed to her own audience of readers to address the racism of U.S. politics. Especially someone like Jemisin who has been the target of a very public campaign to drive her out of her chosen profession because she's a WOC who writes about race, class, and gender.
Seriously, one of the worst things about political speech on the internet is how deep linking makes everything so removed from context that key parts of meaning and voice get erased. It's one of the reasons why I keep shouting TWITTER IS NOT NEWS. There's a time and a place for coalition building and a time and a place for anger. Part of creating coalitions means recognizing when a speech or a text is not for you, not about you, and not an example to use for tone policing non-existent electoral campaigns.
we can do the emotional labor of letting people vent without getting snippy about it. People are terrified and rightfully. Let's be kind to each other, ok?
THIS! Especially when we're not even looking at a primary season.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Seriously, one of the worst things about political speech on the internet is how deep linking makes everything so removed from context that key parts of meaning and voice get erased. It's one of the reasons why I keep shouting TWITTER IS NOT NEWS. There's a time and a place for coalition building and a time and a place for anger. Part of creating coalitions means recognizing when a speech or a text is not for you, not about you, and not an example to use for tone policing non-existent electoral campaigns.
we can do the emotional labor of letting people vent without getting snippy about it. People are terrified and rightfully. Let's be kind to each other, ok?
THIS! Especially when we're not even looking at a primary season.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Please do give me an example of how to confront everyday racism in a way that also supports the lives and rights of white people. I'm all ears.
Here's an example:
Bills to regulate the training of police officers in order to stop and reverse the militarization of police forces, and reduce the frequency with which police resort to gunfire.
It would do nothing to address the discriminatory treatment black citizens receive at the hands of the police, but it would mean they would survive those incidents. Fewer Mike Browns. More incidents like Professor Henry Louis Gates's arrest in MA.
It would be a cynical pander to the "all lives matter" argument, in so much as it would also address the frequent-though-not-as-frequent police killing of white citizens and paper over the discrepancy. BUt. It. Would. Work.
And that is what matters.
posted by ocschwar at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's an example:
Bills to regulate the training of police officers in order to stop and reverse the militarization of police forces, and reduce the frequency with which police resort to gunfire.
It would do nothing to address the discriminatory treatment black citizens receive at the hands of the police, but it would mean they would survive those incidents. Fewer Mike Browns. More incidents like Professor Henry Louis Gates's arrest in MA.
It would be a cynical pander to the "all lives matter" argument, in so much as it would also address the frequent-though-not-as-frequent police killing of white citizens and paper over the discrepancy. BUt. It. Would. Work.
And that is what matters.
posted by ocschwar at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's value in not having to do the dance of not-injuring-feelings that people usually do, especially that POC usually have to do, in order to get their ideas heard.
Emotional Labour Thread strikes again.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Emotional Labour Thread strikes again.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
This is a really great, succinct piece by Mefi's own jscalzi about how voting Trump was voting for racism even if one doesn't think of themselves as "racist":
The Cinemax Theory of Racism
The Cinemax Theory of Racism
For the Trump voters, Trump’s racism may have been just part of the package deal, the Cinemax they had accept to get the HBO. For those who are the target of that racism (and sexism, and homophobia), however, it’s not Cinemax. It’s their lives. Day to day, and every day. And they’re all too aware of what Trump voters signed up for, to get what they wanted.posted by dnash at 9:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
Annika Cicada, do you know who created that document or who to contact to edit it?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's hoping Trump's presidency goes better than his time with the USFL.
posted by drezdn at 9:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 9:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, for Christ's sakes, if the real, material concerns of Trump voters was economic, they would have attacked banks. They attacked Muslims, black people, Asians, etc. The celebratory war whoop of the Trump vanguard has been hate crimes.
They've told us what they want. We should believe them, because we're not going to change anything by pretending, oh, actually it was about trade deals, actually it was about rising health care costs.
Maya Angelou has been running through my head since yesterday afternoon:
“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”
Other examples: Watch news tapes of Trump rallies. Watch recordings of people who went to them.
Loads of antisemetic attacks at journalists
And if not so racist, not so misogynist, not so antisemitic all of the casual Trump supporters didn't pay attention enough to know this is what they supported?
???
I dunno. It's okay and they get a pass for ignorance?
posted by Jalliah at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
They've told us what they want. We should believe them, because we're not going to change anything by pretending, oh, actually it was about trade deals, actually it was about rising health care costs.
Maya Angelou has been running through my head since yesterday afternoon:
“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”
Other examples: Watch news tapes of Trump rallies. Watch recordings of people who went to them.
Loads of antisemetic attacks at journalists
And if not so racist, not so misogynist, not so antisemitic all of the casual Trump supporters didn't pay attention enough to know this is what they supported?
???
I dunno. It's okay and they get a pass for ignorance?
posted by Jalliah at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Here's hoping Trump's presidency goes better than his time with the USFL.
For real. The last thing we need is Roger Goodell somehow getting more power.
posted by palindromic at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
For real. The last thing we need is Roger Goodell somehow getting more power.
posted by palindromic at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
via The Guardian's live blog:
The Obamas canceled a photo-op of the current and future first couples outside the south entrance of the White House, the Wall Street Journal reports.
But we’re about to get photos from inside the Oval office.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Obamas canceled a photo-op of the current and future first couples outside the south entrance of the White House, the Wall Street Journal reports.
But we’re about to get photos from inside the Oval office.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of hoping that Clinton and Obama don't fade into the background as is expected of failed candidates and ex presidents, and come back swinging as a feminist and civil rights organizer.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
I admire the hell out of the folks who are capable of being more focused than I am right now, and I say that by way of apology if I appear to be jumping all over the damned place with this, but:
I get the postmortems on what happened on election day and the possible missteps that led to it, and I think it'll be important to know what will/won't work going into 2018 and beyond, but I find I'm really, really concerned with what can be done in the next 70 days to insulate the people who will be standing in the cold the moment the president elect takes office.
Is it possible to call on President Obama to do what he can? Is there anything a lame duck president CAN do?
posted by Mooski at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I get the postmortems on what happened on election day and the possible missteps that led to it, and I think it'll be important to know what will/won't work going into 2018 and beyond, but I find I'm really, really concerned with what can be done in the next 70 days to insulate the people who will be standing in the cold the moment the president elect takes office.
Is it possible to call on President Obama to do what he can? Is there anything a lame duck president CAN do?
posted by Mooski at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bills to regulate the training of police officers in order to stop and reverse the militarization of police forces, and reduce the frequency with which police resort to gunfire.
We are speaking past each other. When ol' uncle Jerry starts rambling at Thanksgiving about how how he thinks the Mexicans are coming to take his job, launching into a discussion of police training policy minutiae is going to go completely over his head. You can't fight emotion--especially the basest of emotions, fear--with facts, you can only effectively confront it with other, more positively framed emotions.
posted by scantee at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
We are speaking past each other. When ol' uncle Jerry starts rambling at Thanksgiving about how how he thinks the Mexicans are coming to take his job, launching into a discussion of police training policy minutiae is going to go completely over his head. You can't fight emotion--especially the basest of emotions, fear--with facts, you can only effectively confront it with other, more positively framed emotions.
posted by scantee at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I went in for a permanent birth control consultation this morning. The good news is that the doctor consented and I'll be baby-free by the end of the year! The bad news is that her office has been swamped for the last day by women making similar appointments and scheduling IUD insertions. Women are battening down the hatches and it is sick that we have to expedite such things ahead of what may come.
posted by theraflu at 9:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by theraflu at 9:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Bills to regulate the training of police officers in order to stop and reverse the militarization of police forces, and reduce the frequency with which police resort to gunfire.
Been tried. Doesn't work:
Stamper's description of this culture is damning: "Military, bureaucratic, insulated, isolated—giving rise to a real strong in-group solidarity among the officers, and that is more powerful than eight hours or even 60 hours of training."
Disturbingly, he adds: "What you will hear from many senior officers is, 'Forget that nonsense that they teach you in the academy, you're in the real world now.'"
You know what does work? Training for racial bias. Hiring a more diverse work force. Matching the racial makeup of the community. Greater accountability.
You know. The things that start with explicitly recognizing that racism is a problem.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
Been tried. Doesn't work:
Stamper's description of this culture is damning: "Military, bureaucratic, insulated, isolated—giving rise to a real strong in-group solidarity among the officers, and that is more powerful than eight hours or even 60 hours of training."
Disturbingly, he adds: "What you will hear from many senior officers is, 'Forget that nonsense that they teach you in the academy, you're in the real world now.'"
You know what does work? Training for racial bias. Hiring a more diverse work force. Matching the racial makeup of the community. Greater accountability.
You know. The things that start with explicitly recognizing that racism is a problem.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
Here's hoping Trump's presidency goes better than his time with the USFL.
He sues the people of American and wins, but only get $1.
posted by nubs at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
He sues the people of American and wins, but only get $1.
posted by nubs at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
When ol' uncle Jerry starts rambling at Thanksgiving about how how he thinks the Mexicans are coming to take his job, launching into a discussion of police training policy minutiae is going to go completely over his head.
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
Meanwhile, when you go out to try to win blue collar white voters for the next Democratic ballot, you prepare an agenda and presentation that works for that audience.
posted by ocschwar at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
Meanwhile, when you go out to try to win blue collar white voters for the next Democratic ballot, you prepare an agenda and presentation that works for that audience.
posted by ocschwar at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Guardian:
Obama said the number one priority was to ensure a smooth transition, so Trump could be a successful president.
“If he succeeds, the country succeeds,” Obama said.
Trump said he had “respect for the president” and said they talked about some wonderful things and some difficult things.
Asked if he would seek the advice of the president, Trump said Obama was a “very fine man.”
Trump also boasted of how long their meeting had been. He said it was scheduled for ten minutes but lasted for an hour and a half, and could have gone on much longer.
In short remarks, the president said the two had an “excellent conversation.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Obama said the number one priority was to ensure a smooth transition, so Trump could be a successful president.
“If he succeeds, the country succeeds,” Obama said.
Trump said he had “respect for the president” and said they talked about some wonderful things and some difficult things.
Asked if he would seek the advice of the president, Trump said Obama was a “very fine man.”
Trump also boasted of how long their meeting had been. He said it was scheduled for ten minutes but lasted for an hour and a half, and could have gone on much longer.
In short remarks, the president said the two had an “excellent conversation.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm looking to history trying to understand better the present, and I keep going back to Weimar Republic in terms of a "golden age" of social enlightenment (which was quite possibly even more progressive than anywhere today) and what happened there as the social contract restricted support for LGBT/POC people and began moving towards white nationalism.
I found this article that goes into myriad reasons for the fall, and this really stuck out for me:
"Germany’s post-war constitution has shouldered much of the blame for the political instability of the 1920s. The men who drafted the constitution in 1919 attempted to construct a political system not unlike that of the United States, incorporating democracy, federalism, checks and balances and protection of individual rights. Tellingly, they created an executive presidency who had considerable emergency powers, allowing him to bypass or override the elected Reichstag. Some historians suggest the Weimar president – with his seven year term and these hefty emergency powers – was not far removed from the former kaiser. Stalemates in the Reichstag meant the president’s emergency powers were frequently called into action, which only enhanced and worsened political divisions."
Expanded emergency powers for the president...hm...
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I found this article that goes into myriad reasons for the fall, and this really stuck out for me:
"Germany’s post-war constitution has shouldered much of the blame for the political instability of the 1920s. The men who drafted the constitution in 1919 attempted to construct a political system not unlike that of the United States, incorporating democracy, federalism, checks and balances and protection of individual rights. Tellingly, they created an executive presidency who had considerable emergency powers, allowing him to bypass or override the elected Reichstag. Some historians suggest the Weimar president – with his seven year term and these hefty emergency powers – was not far removed from the former kaiser. Stalemates in the Reichstag meant the president’s emergency powers were frequently called into action, which only enhanced and worsened political divisions."
Expanded emergency powers for the president...hm...
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I found this Twitter thread helpful in thinking about the narrative that we just don't care about Trump voters/need to understand them more. Still thinking about it a lot. Clearly, just being nice/using policy positions isn't working. I don't want to "fight dirty" in a way that would make me abandon my values. So how do I approach/deal with the folks who made this happen? What can be done? That's the thinking I want to be doing. I've got my white privilege but I don't always know the best way to use it for good.
posted by emjaybee at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by emjaybee at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016
Here is the thing about "just be nice" that occurs to me.
You've all read The Handmaid's Tale, right? You know how when women suddenly don't have bank account access anymore and their rights start getting seriously restricted, the narrator's husband is very upset at first, and we start to see him becoming more comfortable with power? He's not even a bad guy and he certainly doesn't do anything markedly bad; it's just that power is very hard to avoid when society gives it to you, and he doesn't fully understand how bad things are for the narrator because he himself is not experiencing them.
And here's what I'm worried about:
That they will start gradually - on one hand, isolated incidents of blood and fire will be permitted, as they are right now, today; on the other, small steps to identify out-groups and take our rights. A pink triangle on our drivers' licenses or something, for instance. First getting rid of equal employment rights laws for POC and women, then letting that percolate for a while so that default, unconscious discrimination gets more power, and then actual laws that are themselves actively disciminatory. Arrests and camps for small groups - either subsets of marginalized people (GLBTQ people suspected of doing sex work, for instance; Muslims from certain mosques) or marginalized people who are themselves few in number.
It will be very slow, and white straight men of conscience will be sympathetic at first. But there won't be much they can do - hold a rally, write a letter - that isn't actually useless. And little by little, they will get used to not needing to be fair to women or POC or gay people. Little by little, where they would once have said to themselves "well, I am uncomfortable with gender non-comforming job candidates, potential lessors, clients, business owners, etc...but I am going to push through that" they will let themselves say "I don't want some kind of flaming gay guy in my department; I don't want an ugly butch woman renting in my apartment" and they just won't think about it very much.
After five years or so of slow, bit-by-bit steps toward marginalization, people who would be opposed to dramatic measures will come to accept dramatic results. That's how it has worked historically. You bribe the ruling group with bits of power that they don't even realize that they are accepting, you marginalize the outgroups little by little, and eventually even extreme acts of violence and injustice are normalized and consented to.
This is why I don't have a lot of faith in being nice. You wouldn't know it online, but in life I'm a really go-along-to-get-along person, and what I've been realizing lately is that no matter how nice, charming, charismatic and friendly I am, that doesn't stop straight cis men from threatening me with violence. And if it doesn't work now, how will it work in five years when every document I have has a pink triangle on it?
It's not even that I'm opposed to being nice - it's that it doesn't work.
posted by Frowner at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [144 favorites]
You've all read The Handmaid's Tale, right? You know how when women suddenly don't have bank account access anymore and their rights start getting seriously restricted, the narrator's husband is very upset at first, and we start to see him becoming more comfortable with power? He's not even a bad guy and he certainly doesn't do anything markedly bad; it's just that power is very hard to avoid when society gives it to you, and he doesn't fully understand how bad things are for the narrator because he himself is not experiencing them.
And here's what I'm worried about:
That they will start gradually - on one hand, isolated incidents of blood and fire will be permitted, as they are right now, today; on the other, small steps to identify out-groups and take our rights. A pink triangle on our drivers' licenses or something, for instance. First getting rid of equal employment rights laws for POC and women, then letting that percolate for a while so that default, unconscious discrimination gets more power, and then actual laws that are themselves actively disciminatory. Arrests and camps for small groups - either subsets of marginalized people (GLBTQ people suspected of doing sex work, for instance; Muslims from certain mosques) or marginalized people who are themselves few in number.
It will be very slow, and white straight men of conscience will be sympathetic at first. But there won't be much they can do - hold a rally, write a letter - that isn't actually useless. And little by little, they will get used to not needing to be fair to women or POC or gay people. Little by little, where they would once have said to themselves "well, I am uncomfortable with gender non-comforming job candidates, potential lessors, clients, business owners, etc...but I am going to push through that" they will let themselves say "I don't want some kind of flaming gay guy in my department; I don't want an ugly butch woman renting in my apartment" and they just won't think about it very much.
After five years or so of slow, bit-by-bit steps toward marginalization, people who would be opposed to dramatic measures will come to accept dramatic results. That's how it has worked historically. You bribe the ruling group with bits of power that they don't even realize that they are accepting, you marginalize the outgroups little by little, and eventually even extreme acts of violence and injustice are normalized and consented to.
This is why I don't have a lot of faith in being nice. You wouldn't know it online, but in life I'm a really go-along-to-get-along person, and what I've been realizing lately is that no matter how nice, charming, charismatic and friendly I am, that doesn't stop straight cis men from threatening me with violence. And if it doesn't work now, how will it work in five years when every document I have has a pink triangle on it?
It's not even that I'm opposed to being nice - it's that it doesn't work.
posted by Frowner at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [144 favorites]
drezdn : Trump is considering the JP Morgan CEO for a Treasury Post.
Yup, that's exactly how they get you, "Hope and change!" means a Citigroup COO, while "Make America Great Again" means a JP Morgan CEO.
There is a world of difference once you get into cabinet positions like secretary of the interior though.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yup, that's exactly how they get you, "Hope and change!" means a Citigroup COO, while "Make America Great Again" means a JP Morgan CEO.
There is a world of difference once you get into cabinet positions like secretary of the interior though.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
posted by molecicco at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by molecicco at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
I have close family friend Jewish Professor Eli coming to thanksgiving so Uncle Jerry (or rather, cousin Trumpkin) might want to stick it up his ass.
posted by Talez at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have close family friend Jewish Professor Eli coming to thanksgiving so Uncle Jerry (or rather, cousin Trumpkin) might want to stick it up his ass.
posted by Talez at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
"The Gang starts an accelerationist party"
Lovely.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
"The Gang starts an accelerationist party"
Lovely.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
When no one calls racists on their racism they think everyone agrees with them and it empowers them. Please don't empower racists.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
When no one calls racists on their racism they think everyone agrees with them and it empowers them. Please don't empower racists.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
I'd rather sit back and watch Trump's inevitable disastrous divisiveness tear apart the Republican Party. If you look at his history -- which he will absolutely duplicate in office, because he is not suddenly going to be a new Trump now that he is president -- he can't hold a team together for longer than a few months, and then spends years afterward engaged in acrimonious lawsuits and countersuits.
He apparently already has a hit list of Republicans he thinks wronged him, and will go after them with a vengeance. People thought he was going to put Hillary in jail. No, his greatest rage is reserved for those he thinks betrayed him.
posted by maxsparber at 9:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'd rather sit back and watch Trump's inevitable disastrous divisiveness tear apart the Republican Party. If you look at his history -- which he will absolutely duplicate in office, because he is not suddenly going to be a new Trump now that he is president -- he can't hold a team together for longer than a few months, and then spends years afterward engaged in acrimonious lawsuits and countersuits.
He apparently already has a hit list of Republicans he thinks wronged him, and will go after them with a vengeance. People thought he was going to put Hillary in jail. No, his greatest rage is reserved for those he thinks betrayed him.
posted by maxsparber at 9:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't mean "don't be thoughtful about how you communicate with your audience" because I think that's good to do if you feel that you have the available emotional energy but seriously can we not tell people to ignore racism to convert racists to our side? Isn't that sort of burn the village in order to save it territory? I'd like to change minds but I'm not really trying to get active racists on board because then I'm on board with a bunch of racists and the last thing I want is for both parties to feel like they are actively beholden to vocal racists.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
What exactly can be easily refuted via Snopes? That DNC is corrupt? That they, led by Debbie Wasserman Schultz undermined Sanders campaign to nominate Clinton? That NYT and other Democratic establishment media continuously ran biased coverage of Sanders campaign to ensure a Clinton nomination? That Donna Brazile sent debate questions to Clinton? Which ones of these are lies?
All of them? Do you want to go back to the e election threads during the primaries? Where is your proof the NYT slandered Bernie unfairly, other than your feelings? Because there have been a few studies of media coverage out, and Bernie received significantly more positive coverage than Clinton.
Where is your proof the DNC was actively undermining Bernie? Emails that say "I don't like him", sent after Super Tuesday when Clinton had the election in the bag, are not voter suppression, they are not sabotage, they're expressions of personal opinion.
The thing with Donna Brazile was real shitty--and also only affected the election after Super Tuesday.
Ever since Bill ran for President, the media has pushed a narrative about Hillary's supposed corruption. Oh, she knows such-and-such who did Bad Thing? Look at the implication! You pile enough "think of the implications" together, push them long enough, and despite the fact she's been investigated and vetted more times than any other candidate ever, people assume that they add up to something real.
It works so well because we are primed to think of ambitious women as conniving, power-hungry, and unnatural. The entire story about her has always come back to that, and ultimately always without viable proof.
Somewhat related--people seem to forget that Clinton won the primaries on the support of POC. You can argue Bernie would've gotten more white people--and I can argue that he would've gotten less POC.
I hope someone does an analysis of states no longer covered by the VRA and ones that instituted voter ID laws versus turnout among Democratic-leaning groups, because I suspect that we'll find a correlation between the two.
posted by Anonymous at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016
Trump will wise up and lean on him for counsel.
Does that seem like something Trump would do?
posted by drezdn at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Does that seem like something Trump would do?
posted by drezdn at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
This is could be an interesting turn of events in true.
BREAKING: Sheriffs LEAVE Standing Rock, Saying ‘It’s Completely Unethical’
Widespread outrage over both the construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline and violent police crackdowns rages on. That outrage is spreading even to police agencies now returning from deployment to the reservation. Two departments have already refused to return, citing personal and public objections. As if that wasn’t enough, an army of sympathizers is re-purposing social media to combat police efforts in Standing Rock.
Minnesota’s Hennepin County Sheriff’s Department is among that group. Lawmakers, according to MPR News, found police activities in Standing Rock “inappropriate”. It’s to the point where they’re considering rewriting legislation to avoid future deployments to incidents like the pipeline resistance.
It's also pertinent to the election because Donald has financial investments in the company building the pipeline.
posted by Jalliah at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [53 favorites]
What Would Molly Ivins Say?
(Very short video from last year, but now more relevant than ever. It's not much, but it might make your heart feel a tiny bit better for at least a couple minutes, especially if you're from Texas.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Very short video from last year, but now more relevant than ever. It's not much, but it might make your heart feel a tiny bit better for at least a couple minutes, especially if you're from Texas.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:55 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where I'm at right now: in taking solace in the fact that, since I live in Hawaii near military bases, I'll be evaporated in the first wave of nuclear explosions and won't have to live out Fury Road.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The best thing ever would be if Trump started palling around publicly with HRC and the Obamas. It wouldn't matter if he made the Rust Belt all shining cities paved with gold, they would vote him right out.
posted by zutalors! at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Preliminary analysis of why the polls were so far off, from Electoral Vote. Nothing hugely insightful, but the table showing the discrepancy is striking.
posted by Coventry at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
It works so well because we are primed to think of ambitious women as conniving, power-hungry, and unnatural.
Shakespeare did it first!
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Shakespeare did it first!
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
What? No. You call him out on it, or leave. If you can't talk to your own family about this stuff, then I'm not sure what family means anymore that would be so important as to make racism acceptable.
The notion of not embarrassing the older folks has got to go. They're adults, they not only can handle all the same talk about reality you can, they've lived through it too, and if they're the ones spewing hatred, then, well, figure out where to stand because your family might end up on the side persecuting others rather than on the side of justice, so it'd be nice to know now if you're going to stand with them or with those being persecuted so others can note whose trust they might not really have.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
What? No. You call him out on it, or leave. If you can't talk to your own family about this stuff, then I'm not sure what family means anymore that would be so important as to make racism acceptable.
The notion of not embarrassing the older folks has got to go. They're adults, they not only can handle all the same talk about reality you can, they've lived through it too, and if they're the ones spewing hatred, then, well, figure out where to stand because your family might end up on the side persecuting others rather than on the side of justice, so it'd be nice to know now if you're going to stand with them or with those being persecuted so others can note whose trust they might not really have.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
Does that seem like something Trump would do?
Trump likes people who suck up to him or at least pretend too. I could see him doing that because in his mind he gets to shove his power in the guy he beat face. (Trump was running against Obama in his mind as much as he was Hillary)
Obama, if he has the desire, has enough smarts to know how to manipulate this man if he has the chance. I could totally see him playing the sucking up to Trump game for the good of the country.
posted by Jalliah at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump likes people who suck up to him or at least pretend too. I could see him doing that because in his mind he gets to shove his power in the guy he beat face. (Trump was running against Obama in his mind as much as he was Hillary)
Obama, if he has the desire, has enough smarts to know how to manipulate this man if he has the chance. I could totally see him playing the sucking up to Trump game for the good of the country.
posted by Jalliah at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here's something.
https://www.greatagain.gov/serve-america.html
I mean, the campaign ad writes itself.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
https://www.greatagain.gov/serve-america.html
APPLYING TO WORK IN THE ADMINISTRATIONWithout me spending all day looking up every example, let's dig into that.
All those wishing to apply for positions in the Trump-Pence Transition, Executive Office of the President, or a Federal Department, Agency or Commission should follow the instructions below:
...
You will be asked fill out a Personal Data Statement if you are considered for a specific position. You will be asked about possible conflicts of interest deriving from your sources of income; all aspects of your personal and professional life, including organization which you belong or once belonged; speeches you may have given and books, articles and editorials you may have written; legal, administrative and regulatory proceedings to which you may have been a party; in short, anything that might embarrass the President or you if he should choose you for a position in his administration. [Emphasis in the original]
- You will be asked about possible conflicts of interest deriving from your sources of income;
"Donald Trump’s stunning victory will force the United States to confront a series of never-before-seen entanglements over the president’s private business, debts and rocky financial history." - Washington Post, November 9th
- all aspects of your personal and professional life,
"Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that before a show, I'll go backstage and everyone's getting dressed, and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere, and I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it," Trump said. "You know, I'm inspecting because I want to make sure that everything is good." "You know, the dresses. 'Is everyone okay?' You know, they're standing there with no clothes. 'Is everybody okay?' And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that. But no, I've been very good," he added. - CNN with clips from The Howard Stern Show
- including organization which you belong or once belonged;
I got nothing for this one. Congrats, Mr. President Elect.
- speeches you may have given and books, articles and editorials you may have written;
- (off the top of my head)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_Billy_Bush_recording_controversy
- "Donald Trump on Thursday adamantly denied claims he forced himself on a People Magazine journalist more than a decade ago, responding to her accusation of sexual assault by saying, 'Look at her ... I don't think so.'" - CNN, October 13th
- Here Are All the Times Donald Trump Insulted Mexico (In chronological order) - Time, August 31
- legal, administrative and regulatory proceedings to which you may have been a party;
Donald Trump: Three decades. 4,095 lawsuits. -USA Today
President-elect Trump due to appear in court at trial starting later this month
The Republican nominee will have to juggle his legal headaches as he prepares for the White House. - Politico, November 9th - in short, anything that might embarrass the President or you if he should choose you for a position in his administration.
I mean, the campaign ad writes itself.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Just sent a note over to Obama about how he should pardon record numbers of federal prisoners as he closes his presidency, and this pops up after the message was sent:
posted by palindromic at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
To share your reflections with President Obama, please use the form below.[vomits]
If you are trying to contact President-Elect Trump, visit www.greatagain.gov.
posted by palindromic at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
No. No it is not. Now is the time to form a coalition, organize, syndicate, push hard on the Dems (and Rs) at every level, and make fucking sure that more progressives get in office at every level. And be nice to each other.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
No. No it is not. Now is the time to form a coalition, organize, syndicate, push hard on the Dems (and Rs) at every level, and make fucking sure that more progressives get in office at every level. And be nice to each other.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
When ol' uncle Jerry starts rambling at Thanksgiving about how how he thinks the Mexicans are coming to take his job,
Tell him that if he's good at his job, he has nothing to fear. There's always someone younger and more desperate and willing to work for lower wages... the solution to that is competence and company culture; otherwise he's just as likely to lose his job to a white couch-surfing college dropout.
Tell him that the Mexicans you know don't care about his job; which Mexicans does he think want his job? Remind him that "Mexicans" are not a social club with a few dozen members.
Ask if he's worried about Germans taking his job - I know several undocumented immigrants from Europe who struggling to find fake paperwork to stay in the US.
Or leave the table, leave the room, maybe leave the gathering. "I have friends who come from Mexico, and they have just as much right to a job as you do. If you aren't the better worker, you don't deserve the job."
If he falls back on, "I meant illegal Mexicans!" you can say, "then the problem is your employer breaking the law."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Tell him that if he's good at his job, he has nothing to fear. There's always someone younger and more desperate and willing to work for lower wages... the solution to that is competence and company culture; otherwise he's just as likely to lose his job to a white couch-surfing college dropout.
Tell him that the Mexicans you know don't care about his job; which Mexicans does he think want his job? Remind him that "Mexicans" are not a social club with a few dozen members.
Ask if he's worried about Germans taking his job - I know several undocumented immigrants from Europe who struggling to find fake paperwork to stay in the US.
Or leave the table, leave the room, maybe leave the gathering. "I have friends who come from Mexico, and they have just as much right to a job as you do. If you aren't the better worker, you don't deserve the job."
If he falls back on, "I meant illegal Mexicans!" you can say, "then the problem is your employer breaking the law."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
You can probably do that better with a new party.
posted by molecicco at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by molecicco at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2016
@roomthreeseventeen: I found it here: https://twitter.com/ThomasPageMcBee
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can probably do that better with a new party.
Yes, American history is just full of examples of third parties rising up and achieving great things.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
Yes, American history is just full of examples of third parties rising up and achieving great things.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
I was a reluctant Hillary supporter as I expected from her, if elected, more of the DLC/triangulation/corporatist policies her husband championed. NAFTA and the treaties that followed really were a blow to many Americans.
Neoliberal policies have failed most Americans. Trump's message, poorly expressed and incoherent, hinted at this. Many of my high school friends who did not go on to college projected this onto Trump and supported him. Whether he means this and will buck the 'elites' including the majority of his party and oppose NAFTA, TPP, etc. etc. remains to be seen. I am not hopeful.
posted by sudogeek at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016
Neoliberal policies have failed most Americans. Trump's message, poorly expressed and incoherent, hinted at this. Many of my high school friends who did not go on to college projected this onto Trump and supported him. Whether he means this and will buck the 'elites' including the majority of his party and oppose NAFTA, TPP, etc. etc. remains to be seen. I am not hopeful.
posted by sudogeek at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016
Israeli right seizes on Trump win: ‘The era of a Palestinian state is over’:
Members of Netanyahu’s government, considered the most right-wing in Israeli history, showed less restraint in their expectations of dividends from Trump’s victory.posted by palindromic at 10:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Education Minister Naftali Bennett, who heads the hardline Jewish Home party and is seen as seeking to be prime minister one day, said the idea of a Palestinian state was now over.
“Trump’s victory is an opportunity for Israel to immediately retract the notion of a Palestinian state in the centre of the country, which would hurt our security and just cause,” Bennett said in an apparent reference to the occupied West Bank.
yes, a reform party of some sort. after all, it worked out so well for the reformers in 1992 and 1996
posted by entropicamericana at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
Meanwhile, when you go out to try to win blue collar white voters for the next Democratic ballot, you prepare an agenda and presentation that works for that audience.
You know you can call him out on his racism and go try to win blue collar voters while also not pandering to racism, right?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Meanwhile, when you go out to try to win blue collar white voters for the next Democratic ballot, you prepare an agenda and presentation that works for that audience.
You know you can call him out on his racism and go try to win blue collar voters while also not pandering to racism, right?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
The most important lesson of this election to me is that evangelicals voted overwhelmingly for trump on the basis of abortion and nothing else. We've got millions of single issue voters held captive on an issue that the bible doesn't even address, organized into a political machine for finding the least christ-like man in america and making him their leader. If america's most religious people had felt comfortable voting their conscience Clinton could've gotten at least three more states, but deep immersion in the pro-life movement has trapped many of them in a bubble they can't escape. My mother got so angry she cried when I made her listen to just five minutes of that This American Life episode about political lies (ep 599), and kept insisting that Obama IS a muslim, he IS, because being a christian means being pro-life, and being pro-life means being in the bubble, and being in the bubble means Trump. We need to make a theological case for being pro-choice and we need to make it hard.
posted by fomhar at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by fomhar at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [41 favorites]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
I would rather see them infiltrate the Democratic party in large numbers, put their people on Dem tickets at every level of government, take over party nominating committees and executive positions, and pretty much rewire and redefine the DNC from the inside.
The system isn't made for third parties and is very hard to change.
posted by rocket88 at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I would rather see them infiltrate the Democratic party in large numbers, put their people on Dem tickets at every level of government, take over party nominating committees and executive positions, and pretty much rewire and redefine the DNC from the inside.
The system isn't made for third parties and is very hard to change.
posted by rocket88 at 10:05 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted; please be kind folks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
So are Bernie Sanders and his supporters going to start a new political party? Now is the time.
They've already half taken over the Democratic party, probably easier to just finish the job.
You can probably do that better with a new party.
The Greens haven't found that to be the case, as long as we're measuring success by votes and getting anything done.
posted by LionIndex at 10:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
They've already half taken over the Democratic party, probably easier to just finish the job.
You can probably do that better with a new party.
The Greens haven't found that to be the case, as long as we're measuring success by votes and getting anything done.
posted by LionIndex at 10:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
uhhh. Moscow had contacts with Trump team during campaign, Russian diplomat says
But Russia’s deputy foreign minister, Sergei Ryabkov, said in an interview with the state-run Interfax news agency that “there were contacts” with the Trump team.posted by zachlipton at 10:06 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
“Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,” Ryabkov said. “Those people have always been in the limelight in the United States and have occupied high-ranking positions. I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives.”
“We have just begun to consider ways of building dialogue with the future Donald Trump administration and channels we will be using for those purposes,” Ryabkov was quoted as saying.
No further details were given on the claimed contacts, including names in the Trump campaign or other specifics.
Speaking to Bloomberg News, ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said staff of Russia’s embassy in the United States met with members of Trump’s campaign — meetings she described as “normal practice.” Democratic Party nominee Hillary Clinton’s campaign refused similar requests for meetings, she told the agency.
Asked later for clarification, a Foreign Ministry official declined to elaborate on Ryabkov’s remarks but said standard diplomacy called for “contact with the leaders in the campaign” on matters such as clarifying statements by the candidate or conveying interview requests from Russian journalists. The ministry official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.
So... what are the plans for 2018?
Shitloads of ads that ask "Are you better off?"
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Shitloads of ads that ask "Are you better off?"
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
The Democratic Party has brought in four Asian American women Senators. I would like to support them. I would not like to blow out the party with the Bernie Sanders Party.
Let's not be shortsighted. Let's focus on what we can really do with what we have.
posted by zutalors! at 10:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
Let's not be shortsighted. Let's focus on what we can really do with what we have.
posted by zutalors! at 10:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
Robert Farley: A Hundred Days of Trump - Foreign Policy Edition:
More on the way, but here’s a quick rundown of where I see Trump going on some big foreign policy issues:posted by palindromic at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Iran
I am very mildly optimistic on Iran, mostly because I suspect that Trump does not want to open up a giant mess of worms by aggressively upending the deal. Perhaps as important, the anti-Iran dealers were heavily represented in the NeverTrump movement. It also doesn’t seem that Trump has any specific ideological axe to grind with Tehran; Iranians no longer emigrate to the United States in great numbers, Trump is unbothered by the mixed-authoritarian nature of Iranian governance, and Iran can hardly be termed a “free rider” ally. But then who the hell knows?
East Asia
For folks hoping that a de-escalation with Russia would lead to a broader evaluation of US defense posture, tough luck. For one, Russia and the “new Cold War” has never been that big of a deal for the Pentagon. People in DoD know Russia and they use Russia rhetorically (at least in the Army) to argue for certain priorities. The medium- and long-range foci of DoD, and of the defense industry writ large, have been firmly on China for quite some time. The reason is simple; China represents a far more compelling military threat than Russia, which remains hemmed in by an alliance structure, and faces tremendous economic and industrial obstacles.
After five years or so of slow, bit-by-bit steps toward marginalization, people who would be opposed to dramatic measures will come to accept dramatic results. That's how it has worked historically. You bribe the ruling group with bits of power that they don't even realize that they are accepting, you marginalize the outgroups little by little, and eventually even extreme acts of violence and injustice are normalized and consented to.
Have there been any good accounts of this process as it happened in Nazi Germany; i.e., the relations “Aryan” Germans had with Jewish neighbours/coworkers/friends, starting off as peers, then gradually accepting the discrimination and rationalising that their old friends David and Rebecca are actually un-German and it's all a terrible pity, then looking the other way as they're replaced overnight by a wholesomely German family from the Sudetenland, and finally, sometime after the liberation of Auschwitz, either coming to terms with the enormity of their complicity or desperately avoiding it by any trick of rationalisation?
I suspect that sort of thing might happen again.
posted by acb at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Have there been any good accounts of this process as it happened in Nazi Germany; i.e., the relations “Aryan” Germans had with Jewish neighbours/coworkers/friends, starting off as peers, then gradually accepting the discrimination and rationalising that their old friends David and Rebecca are actually un-German and it's all a terrible pity, then looking the other way as they're replaced overnight by a wholesomely German family from the Sudetenland, and finally, sometime after the liberation of Auschwitz, either coming to terms with the enormity of their complicity or desperately avoiding it by any trick of rationalisation?
I suspect that sort of thing might happen again.
posted by acb at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I would rather see them infiltrate the Democratic party in large numbers, put their people on Dem tickets at every level of government, take over party nominating committees and executive positions, and pretty much rewire and redefine the DNC from the inside.
That's exactly what he's going to do. He operates outside the party as a legislator, but has a lot of allies within it. The amount he can do without the host organism of the Democratic party is minimal, and the leaders of that party apparatus are weaker than they've ever been. Obama is going to likely be the public face of the project to strengthen and rebuild the party once he leaves office, but Sanders is going to be a major figure in building the winning coalition.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
That's exactly what he's going to do. He operates outside the party as a legislator, but has a lot of allies within it. The amount he can do without the host organism of the Democratic party is minimal, and the leaders of that party apparatus are weaker than they've ever been. Obama is going to likely be the public face of the project to strengthen and rebuild the party once he leaves office, but Sanders is going to be a major figure in building the winning coalition.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
We need to make a theological case for being pro-choice and we need to make it hard.
We need White evangelical men to make this point. The rest of us can come up with talking points, scriptural support, heart-wrenching stories, and logical arguments with statistics from other countries, but we cannot make that pitch effective.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
We need White evangelical men to make this point. The rest of us can come up with talking points, scriptural support, heart-wrenching stories, and logical arguments with statistics from other countries, but we cannot make that pitch effective.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Samantha Bee dreams of a beautiful, faraway world where Trump didn't win
posted by palindromic at 10:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have already decided to opt out of one side's Thanksgiving because some of them will either want to gloat or want to pity me and I am probably not cool and collected enough to react without tears and cursewords. Why put myself through that? I know there are others there who don't like Trump but they're afraid or apathetic and I'm tired of being the Designated Liberal Black Sheep. I've made my impassioned pleas, tried to appeal to their purported belief in Jesus' words about not hurting the vulnerable, all that. Like talking to a brick wall. I'm done. They can sit in their white bubba compound and look through rifle scopes for ISIS all day long if that's what makes them happy. I have my family, that I've chosen and that I've married into, and they mean more to me than the people who share my genes ever will.
posted by emjaybee at 10:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 10:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Trump's website, greatagain.gov, has a big button on it called "Share Your Ideas" where it asks you to tell him how to make America great again.
I'm copying and pasting all of Hillary's plans direct from her web site and sending each point in, one by one.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on November 10, 2016 [75 favorites]
Petition the Electoral College to align with the national popular vote and elect Hillary Clinton as the 45th President of the United States.
posted by baltimoretim at 10:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by baltimoretim at 10:13 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
I mean, the campaign ad writes itself.
Where have you been? None of that matters anymore. Appeal to voters' sense of irony and hypocrisy? You might as well throw in a bon mot about Miltiades at Marathon.
There was a thing on the radio yesterday about the fate of Obamacare, and how nobody has any idea what the "replace" of "repeal and replace" is supposed to be. We never had any conversation about that, or anything else, because what venue for that conversation even exists? The debates were the only real point of contact between the separate realities that Americans live in, and those were complete farces. Only the VP debate, which nobody watched, had anything resembling a conversation about policy, and Pence was forced to invent a platform that bore no relationship to that of his running mate. All there is now is rhetoric, fear, and power.
posted by theodolite at 10:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Where have you been? None of that matters anymore. Appeal to voters' sense of irony and hypocrisy? You might as well throw in a bon mot about Miltiades at Marathon.
There was a thing on the radio yesterday about the fate of Obamacare, and how nobody has any idea what the "replace" of "repeal and replace" is supposed to be. We never had any conversation about that, or anything else, because what venue for that conversation even exists? The debates were the only real point of contact between the separate realities that Americans live in, and those were complete farces. Only the VP debate, which nobody watched, had anything resembling a conversation about policy, and Pence was forced to invent a platform that bore no relationship to that of his running mate. All there is now is rhetoric, fear, and power.
posted by theodolite at 10:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
When uncle Jerry rants at the table, you sit on your hands and talk about football.
Thinking further about this, I was complaining to my husband yesterday that if someone starts saying racist shit (e.g. talking about "thugs") at a family event and I say something about it everyone thinks I'm the one causing trouble or making a scene instead of thinking about how maybe the person saying racist shit is the one who is actually causing trouble. Why is it my job to keep the peace other people are breaking by being vocally hateful? I'm not the one starting trouble! The trouble was already there when someone started saying bigoted shit!
When you tell people not to speak up, you're supporting the racists. It makes it harder to call this stuff out when you know that everyone is going to think you're just a pain in the ass for trying not to be fucking racist so maybe a good way to support people of color would be not only to call this shit out but at the VERY LEAST support other people who try to call it out instead of telling them to "sit on their hands and talk about football" as if the people who are trying not to be racists are the real problem. Jesus Christ.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Thinking further about this, I was complaining to my husband yesterday that if someone starts saying racist shit (e.g. talking about "thugs") at a family event and I say something about it everyone thinks I'm the one causing trouble or making a scene instead of thinking about how maybe the person saying racist shit is the one who is actually causing trouble. Why is it my job to keep the peace other people are breaking by being vocally hateful? I'm not the one starting trouble! The trouble was already there when someone started saying bigoted shit!
When you tell people not to speak up, you're supporting the racists. It makes it harder to call this stuff out when you know that everyone is going to think you're just a pain in the ass for trying not to be fucking racist so maybe a good way to support people of color would be not only to call this shit out but at the VERY LEAST support other people who try to call it out instead of telling them to "sit on their hands and talk about football" as if the people who are trying not to be racists are the real problem. Jesus Christ.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 10:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Best protest sign from NYC last night: "Put avocado on racism so white ppl will pay attention."
posted by zachlipton at 10:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
Two articles from Cracked:
Teresa Lee: Dear White Friends: Stop Saying Everything Is Going To Be Ok:
Teresa Lee: Dear White Friends: Stop Saying Everything Is Going To Be Ok:
For the white liberals who didn't vote to put a racist, misogynist, xenophobic man in the White House, everything will probably be "okay" because it's just a matter of principle to them. (Also, thank you for voting.) But for many minorities, it's not just principles. It's a matter of life and death. White people: I believe you will be okay. I'm happy that you're going to be okay. But I'm tired of hearing you tell me that everything is going to be okay, because the implications of this election are different for you than for everyone else.Soren Bowie: A Letter to My Wife The Day After The Election:
I feel for my Black friends, who have to watch as a candidate openly endorsed by the KKK gets sworn into the Oval Office on January 20. I feel for my Hispanic friends, who have to pledge allegiance to a man who called them rapists while on the campaign trail -- and who, by the way, has been accused of sexual assault by multiple women and teenage girls. Not to mention how he bragged that he can just "grab [women] by the pussy." I feel for my Muslim friends. Do I even need to say why?
I'm so sorry. I can only watch you hurt, because trying to qualify it, to look on the bright side, or equate it to anything in my life rings as tone-deaf. I know that. I can only hug you when you want it and leave you alone when need that. I just want you to know that, whether upstairs or next to you or miles and miles away, I'm with you, I love you, and I hate knowing your heart is breaking.posted by palindromic at 10:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
With the morning came new rhetoric: Affluent liberals are over-dramatic spoiled children who finally get to know what it feels like to lose. The bubble we've all created around ourselves has burst, and now we are faced with the bleak, dying sections of unhappy rural America who'd rather burn the system to the ground than suffer through another four years of being ignored.
But that rhetoric, like a lot of things in your life I'm now realizing, ignores a lingering and ruthlessly unfair problem: We would rather have an unqualified man who grabs, rapes, violates, bullies, and dehumanizes women as our leader than a uniquely qualified woman. What that says about a woman's worth, about your worth, makes me so sad and frustrated that I want to angry-dance in a barn somewhere
Actually I think the "talk about football" can work with one MINOR addition. When they say the thing, turn your head sharply and look at them in horror as though they had just ate a kitten in front of you, then quickly turn to someone ELSE and say "so how about those Seahawks?"
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Annika Cicada: "Germany’s post-war constitution has shouldered much of the blame for the political instability of the 1920s. The men who drafted the constitution in 1919 attempted to construct a political system not unlike that of the United States, incorporating democracy, federalism, checks and balances and protection of individual rights. Tellingly, they created an executive presidency who had considerable emergency powers, allowing him to bypass or override the elected Reichstag. Some historians suggest the Weimar president – with his seven year term and these hefty emergency powers – was not far removed from the former kaiser."
I pulled "The Making of the President, 1960" off the shelf the other day as I listened to the returns come in, and I was struck by this quote (which glosses over the role of the Electoral College, but... close enough):
The quote is out of date, of course - France, Brazil and others have tried direct presidential elections since then (with Lula over his career getting probably more votes than any other person in history) - but it did seem...
...well, the more that I think about it, the less apt it seems. Hitler was Chancellor, closer in position to Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell. He was never President, not even after he seized power. The presidents - elected by mass popular vote, given extensive emergency powers, in office for seven years - were Ebert and von Hindenburg.
posted by clawsoon at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I pulled "The Making of the President, 1960" off the shelf the other day as I listened to the returns come in, and I was struck by this quote (which glosses over the role of the Electoral College, but... close enough):
There is nothing like this American expression of will in England or France, India or Russia or China. Only one other major nation in modern history has ever tried to elect its leader directly by mass, free, popular vote. This was the Weimar Republic of Germany, which modeled its unitary vote for national leader on American practice. Out of its experiment with the system it got Hitler. Americans have had Lincoln, Wilson, two Roosevelts.[...and Trump.]
The quote is out of date, of course - France, Brazil and others have tried direct presidential elections since then (with Lula over his career getting probably more votes than any other person in history) - but it did seem...
...well, the more that I think about it, the less apt it seems. Hitler was Chancellor, closer in position to Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell. He was never President, not even after he seized power. The presidents - elected by mass popular vote, given extensive emergency powers, in office for seven years - were Ebert and von Hindenburg.
posted by clawsoon at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
There are so many of you and you refuse to stand up when it counts.
I stood up, I voted for Hillary, and I promise you I will not cease to stand up and face racism head on. I will (and do, and have for as long as I can remember) call it out when I see it. I will not tolerate it or excuse it or let them think it's "just a joke."
posted by cooker girl at 10:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I stood up, I voted for Hillary, and I promise you I will not cease to stand up and face racism head on. I will (and do, and have for as long as I can remember) call it out when I see it. I will not tolerate it or excuse it or let them think it's "just a joke."
posted by cooker girl at 10:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
There was a thing on the radio yesterday about the fate of Obamacare, and how nobody has any idea what the "replace" of "repeal and replace" is supposed to be.
I did an interview about obamacare just before lunch. The interviewer was a 26 year old, new in broadcasting and just now going off her parents' insurance. She seemed to leave... sobered.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I did an interview about obamacare just before lunch. The interviewer was a 26 year old, new in broadcasting and just now going off her parents' insurance. She seemed to leave... sobered.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's not even that I'm opposed to being nice - it's that it doesn't work.
You're goddamned right. We can't pretend it hasn't been tried. The whole Obama Presidency was Being Nice As Progressive Praxis on a national scale. For all the good he did the country, that strategy is the one that lost to Trump.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
You're goddamned right. We can't pretend it hasn't been tried. The whole Obama Presidency was Being Nice As Progressive Praxis on a national scale. For all the good he did the country, that strategy is the one that lost to Trump.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [39 favorites]
Petition the Electoral College to align with the national popular vote and elect Hillary Clinton as the 45th President of the United States.
It needed 31k more signatures when I clicked it. 5 minutes later, it needs 22k more.
I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, but on the other hand, isn't that part of the checks and balances in the system? If it's a possibility, and it saves lives, and possibly keeps us from nuclear war and maybe the end of all of human history in the space of minutes, well I'll take the "but but but" people. It's a nonviolent option, and the more I think about it, the more I'm considering advocating for it. It's not hyperbole to say that Trump might hit the button. So if she's willing to serve in that instance, then maybe that's what needs to happen.
Down to 12k now.
posted by cashman at 10:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
It needed 31k more signatures when I clicked it. 5 minutes later, it needs 22k more.
I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, but on the other hand, isn't that part of the checks and balances in the system? If it's a possibility, and it saves lives, and possibly keeps us from nuclear war and maybe the end of all of human history in the space of minutes, well I'll take the "but but but" people. It's a nonviolent option, and the more I think about it, the more I'm considering advocating for it. It's not hyperbole to say that Trump might hit the button. So if she's willing to serve in that instance, then maybe that's what needs to happen.
Down to 12k now.
posted by cashman at 10:25 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
@onlxn (the "Trump Leaks" dialogues guy) is doing some final thoughts in a tweetstorm:
posted by zachlipton at 10:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
1. This'll be my last for awhile. To be clear: no more Leaks, no book, no nothing. I did it w/ the belief he wouldn't win. I was wrong.His dialogues were occasionally profound, often awful, but they were the dialogues this election deserved, not the dialogues we wanted.
2. I don't regret doing it b/c we raised some money, but I'd feel ghoulish continuing, given the misery he's about to cause.
...
5. Voter suppression is one of the purest evils there is. Help fight it by donating here: https://donatenow.networkforgood.org/BrennanCenterforJustice
...
8. Finally: as readers know, the real villain of the story I was telling was Paul Ryan. I'd like to turn my attention to him for a moment.
9. We've all seen scenes of ugliness pop up since Trump's win. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that Trump will disavow them.
10. But Paul Ryan fancies himself a responsible leader. As I've made clear, I don't agree with him, but that's what he thinks.
11. Paul Ryan has said nothing about the recent cruelties being inflicted on the various groups Trump has demonized since the election.
posted by zachlipton at 10:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
acb:Have there been any good accounts of this process as it happened in Nazi Germany
Have you read the diaries of diaries of Viktor Klemperer? He was a German Jew (newly defined as such under the race laws), married to a gentile, who survived the war via Dresden. They address the creeping racism in Germany in the 1930s and through the war in exquisite, terrifying detail - he had a foot in both communities and a knack for the telling observation.
posted by Rumple at 10:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
Have you read the diaries of diaries of Viktor Klemperer? He was a German Jew (newly defined as such under the race laws), married to a gentile, who survived the war via Dresden. They address the creeping racism in Germany in the 1930s and through the war in exquisite, terrifying detail - he had a foot in both communities and a knack for the telling observation.
posted by Rumple at 10:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
8,300 to go until 300k people have signed the petition. It's a brisk pace.
posted by baltimoretim at 10:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by baltimoretim at 10:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I didn't realize it just kicked up to the next number. So now the goal is 500,000, since 300k already signed it.
posted by cashman at 10:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 10:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here' a thing i'd like to see before the Obama administration is over: a pardon for every black person in prison for a nonviolent crime (like possession).
Wouldn't that be a nice Fuck You to the racists and to Trump.
And a nice fuck you to correctional/detention companies like CCA and Geo Group that have enjoyed strong stock price bumps since Trump's win.
posted by Kabanos at 10:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wouldn't that be a nice Fuck You to the racists and to Trump.
And a nice fuck you to correctional/detention companies like CCA and Geo Group that have enjoyed strong stock price bumps since Trump's win.
posted by Kabanos at 10:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Politico: Meet Trump's Cabinet-in-waiting. The names being bandied around.Also, putting up oil barons or venture capitalists for Energy? Do they not know that "energy" is an euphemism for "nuclear weapons"? Why do they think Obama put physicists in charge?
Obviously all of those picks sound awful, and Rudy Giuliani as Attorney General could easily be the worst part of a Trump administration, but I'm shocked at the depth of terrible picks for Interior. Jan Brewer is probably only the third or fourth worst name on that list, and she's one of the worst people in America today.
posted by indubitable at 10:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mom just told me that an African American woman she is friends with on FB posted about going to a gas station yesterday after she finished work. Man drove up in a big truck, got out and started calling her nigger. Woman said she tried to ignore him and walked away. Guy started screaming at her 'Don't you ignore me nigger' and the like and pulled out a gun.
Police were called and she said they ARE trying to help.
She said she's scared now because although she's had to deal with racism it's never been anything like this.
Not sure where she lives. I asked Mom to find the post again to find out. Not that it really matters, stories like this are coming in from all over the place.
posted by Jalliah at 10:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
It's not even that I'm opposed to being nice - it's that it doesn't work.
With all the respect in the world, I strongly disagree. That has absolutely not been my experience.
When I was organizing #NeverTrumpers, they didn't all start out that way. In fact, I'd say a majority didn't start that way. We slowly, through kind conversation after kind conversation, brought them ever so slowly to a place where they could not support Trump. It was exhausting, but we did it to the point where many of them resisted physical threats for their opposition, having started from a "meh, who cares" place.
Now, we still lost. Our mission to stop Trump at the roots failed. But I still am in touch with hundreds and hundreds of them, and the majority stayed #NeverTrump until the election. I don't know about afterwards only because I can't brave social media right now.
Now that was an enormous undertaking. It took the near-constant work of dozens of people for several months. It was soul-destroying. But it worked. Bringing them along slowly and then forcing them to choose a side only when they were already on the right one worked. Positive organizing works, when you have the capacity to do it.
This isn't a slam on people who don't have that capacity- but those who do can make a huge impact, and it would be great to have other people doing the heavy lifting too. I can't right now, I'm too broken-hearted. But I would really appreciate people who can grabbing some of the load.
posted by corb at 10:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
With all the respect in the world, I strongly disagree. That has absolutely not been my experience.
When I was organizing #NeverTrumpers, they didn't all start out that way. In fact, I'd say a majority didn't start that way. We slowly, through kind conversation after kind conversation, brought them ever so slowly to a place where they could not support Trump. It was exhausting, but we did it to the point where many of them resisted physical threats for their opposition, having started from a "meh, who cares" place.
Now, we still lost. Our mission to stop Trump at the roots failed. But I still am in touch with hundreds and hundreds of them, and the majority stayed #NeverTrump until the election. I don't know about afterwards only because I can't brave social media right now.
Now that was an enormous undertaking. It took the near-constant work of dozens of people for several months. It was soul-destroying. But it worked. Bringing them along slowly and then forcing them to choose a side only when they were already on the right one worked. Positive organizing works, when you have the capacity to do it.
This isn't a slam on people who don't have that capacity- but those who do can make a huge impact, and it would be great to have other people doing the heavy lifting too. I can't right now, I'm too broken-hearted. But I would really appreciate people who can grabbing some of the load.
posted by corb at 10:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
Jalliah, it does matter. The NY Post's Shaun King (@shaunking) is documenting everything like that for the world to see.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not calling people you know little about names is the first step to not lose an argument.
The next step is to interrupt constantly and say things like "no puppet, no puppet ... YOU'RE the puppet!"
posted by sfenders at 10:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The next step is to interrupt constantly and say things like "no puppet, no puppet ... YOU'RE the puppet!"
posted by sfenders at 10:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm still stunned and disbelieving that Trump won. As in when I wake up in the morning it takes a minute to process it and I think it must have been a dream. That so many people voted for him does not make me think well of the people of this country.
But I'm also stunned and can't get over the fact that Hillary is not going to be president. I had taken it as a given for so long. I think that's not an insignificant factor, I think a lot of people were complacent, and I'm convinced a lot of people voted for Trump thinking Clinton would win.
I really wanted her to be president, and not just because she would have been the first woman. All the Monday morning quarterbacking about if she was the best person to beat Trump misses the point. I really wanted her to win.
I'm shocked that Trump will be our president. But I also feel robbed that Clinton won't be in a way completely different than when Gore or Kerry lost.
posted by bongo_x at 10:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
But I'm also stunned and can't get over the fact that Hillary is not going to be president. I had taken it as a given for so long. I think that's not an insignificant factor, I think a lot of people were complacent, and I'm convinced a lot of people voted for Trump thinking Clinton would win.
I really wanted her to be president, and not just because she would have been the first woman. All the Monday morning quarterbacking about if she was the best person to beat Trump misses the point. I really wanted her to win.
I'm shocked that Trump will be our president. But I also feel robbed that Clinton won't be in a way completely different than when Gore or Kerry lost.
posted by bongo_x at 10:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
Obviously 60 million Trump voters don't care who gets harassed.
posted by zutalors! at 10:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 10:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I can't do a Sanders party. I'm a vegetarian (or should be, I've been slipping as late) and I don't think that even their biscuits are safe. And isn't the quality of KFC a bit suspect these days?
Now if we're talking a Bernie Sanders political party, trying to stir up intra-party drama the day after I saw Sanders->Clinton voters break down in tears in church is a bad opinion, and one should feel bad for having hit the Post Comment button on it. That's not something I say often.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Now if we're talking a Bernie Sanders political party, trying to stir up intra-party drama the day after I saw Sanders->Clinton voters break down in tears in church is a bad opinion, and one should feel bad for having hit the Post Comment button on it. That's not something I say often.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump's transition website seems to be live. This is really what its name is?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:41 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:41 AM on November 10, 2016
Good data visualizations in this BBC story on the election.
posted by Rumple at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Rumple at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2016
Shakespeare did it first!
I mean, if you're looking for the magnum opus summarizing all Clinton conspiracy theories, you can do no better than The Lady Macbeth of Little Rock. It's stunning not just for the vitriol, but for how many of those conspiracy theories and critiques have successfully transitioned from right-wing ravings to being accepted as common knowledge. Repeat something often enough and it'll become true.
If you look at the critiques from the left, many follow the exact pattern of the article, save substituting "She's a secret conservative" for "She's a secret socialist."
posted by Anonymous at 10:43 AM on November 10, 2016
I mean, if you're looking for the magnum opus summarizing all Clinton conspiracy theories, you can do no better than The Lady Macbeth of Little Rock. It's stunning not just for the vitriol, but for how many of those conspiracy theories and critiques have successfully transitioned from right-wing ravings to being accepted as common knowledge. Repeat something often enough and it'll become true.
If you look at the critiques from the left, many follow the exact pattern of the article, save substituting "She's a secret conservative" for "She's a secret socialist."
posted by Anonymous at 10:43 AM on November 10, 2016
Re: nice: Malvina Reynolds, "It isn't nice" (video) (lyrics)
It isn't nice to block the doorway,posted by nonane at 10:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
It isn't nice to go to jail,
There are nicer ways to do it,
But the nice ways always fail.
It isn't nice, it isn't nice,
You told us once, you told us twice,
But if that is Freedom's price,
We don't mind.
Jalliah, it does matter. The NY Post's Shaun King (@shaunking) is documenting everything like that for the world to see.
I'll see if my Mom found it and if it's shareable then. My Mom plays facebooksgames and has tons of people she's 'friends' with but doesn't know so she's searching through her 600+ friend list to find it.
I asked her to please save anything else that she gets.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 AM on November 10, 2016
I'll see if my Mom found it and if it's shareable then. My Mom plays facebooksgames and has tons of people she's 'friends' with but doesn't know so she's searching through her 600+ friend list to find it.
I asked her to please save anything else that she gets.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 AM on November 10, 2016
Trump Transitions to Power, 'Cabinet of Horrors' Takes Shape
Climate skeptics, oil tycoons, campaign loyalists, war hawks, and law enforcement enthusiasts top the list of potential appointees. (scroll down for list)
posted by adamvasco at 10:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Climate skeptics, oil tycoons, campaign loyalists, war hawks, and law enforcement enthusiasts top the list of potential appointees. (scroll down for list)
posted by adamvasco at 10:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump just completely reversed his policy on South Korea — only 2 days after being elected
posted by tonycpsu at 10:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
During the 10-minute phone call, Park reportedly told Trump, "I expect that [we] can strengthen and develop the alliance down the road for the shared interests in various areas," to which Trump responded by saying that he completely agreed with her.I guess we'll find out if he was lying to American voters then or he's lying to President Park now.
She also raised North Korea's nuclear issue, and said that it was the "greatest threat" facing the two countries. "Given that in the past, North Korea staged provocations during the period of the government transition in the US, we need to closely cooperate in advance to thoroughly deter possible North Korean provocations and respond sternly if provoked."
Trump reportedly responded that the US will work with South Korea "until the end" for the security of both countries.
In other words, merely two days after having won the presidential contest, Trump appears to be walking away from one of the most alarming foreign policy positions he repeatedly put forward throughout his entire campaign.
During his run for the presidency, Trump said that if he were elected, he would consider no longer defending longstanding allies South Korea and Japan unless they agree to pay us a lot more money to do so. He also suggested South Korea and Japan should consider getting their own nuclear weapons.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
'Cabinet of Horrors' Takes Shape
From the last thread:
From the last thread:
kakistocracy (n) — government by the worst persons; a form of government in which the worst persons are in power.posted by tonycpsu at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
I guess we'll find out if he was lying to American voters then or he's lying to President Park now.
whynotboth.gif
posted by Etrigan at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
whynotboth.gif
posted by Etrigan at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
This loss sucks, it hurts and it's going to hurt a lot more. But all is not lost and there's a clear opportunity here for 2020, which is critical for redrawing the map to get rid the safe districts Republicans drew in 2010.
Absolutely this. Clinton's campaign along with everyone else missed the tide of white resentment that came out for Trump, but otherwise ran a good, smart campaign. Democrats need to fight and contest every election they can, and in 2020 absolutely must not be feckless. That means keeping Chuck Schumer the hell away from the Senate candidate list.
I've been thinking of messaging, and I am sorely tempted to rub Republicans' noses in every awful thing Trump does. Trump is the embodiment of the Republican Party, and we need to hang him around their necks. I am not above saying "I told you so."
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Absolutely this. Clinton's campaign along with everyone else missed the tide of white resentment that came out for Trump, but otherwise ran a good, smart campaign. Democrats need to fight and contest every election they can, and in 2020 absolutely must not be feckless. That means keeping Chuck Schumer the hell away from the Senate candidate list.
I've been thinking of messaging, and I am sorely tempted to rub Republicans' noses in every awful thing Trump does. Trump is the embodiment of the Republican Party, and we need to hang him around their necks. I am not above saying "I told you so."
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
On Korea reversal:
Was this call after he had his meeting with Obama that he was crowing about being so much longer then it should be? I'd be curious to find out.
posted by Jalliah at 10:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Was this call after he had his meeting with Obama that he was crowing about being so much longer then it should be? I'd be curious to find out.
posted by Jalliah at 10:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Two Competing Narratives for the Party Reboot
There are two narratives emerging to explain the shit-gibbon’s triumph. In one telling, the Democrats are to blame for driving white folks into the arms of the shit-gibbon. [...] In the other telling, the shit-gibbon harnessed a wave of white nationalism and status angst that was heightened by eight years of a black president and the prospect of a woman president.posted by tonycpsu at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
The first narrative seems to be gaining traction. But I think the second version is more accurate. The majority of white folks have been voting Republican since Nixon, and it’s not because the Republicans address their economic concerns. It’s because Republicans indulge rural America’s racism, sexism, xenophobia, religious intolerance and gun fetish in exchange for cart blanche to loot the Treasury.
The data just doesn’t support the “economic anxiety” or “outsider” explanations, since Republicans haven’t done jack-shit to address rural America’s plight and establishment Republican pols were returned to congress in even greater numbers. Also, the shit-gibbon didn’t garner as many votes as Romney or McCain, which wouldn’t have been the case if voters of all stripes were flocking to his “reformist” agenda. The scant voting data I’ve seen so far suggests turnout was down across the board, but rural voters went all-in for the shit-gibbon.
I think the voters who went gaga for the shit-gibbon voted for him because they share his worst qualities, and this Democrat ain’t getting on board with any movement to attract them.
> So... what are the plans for 2018?
Shitloads of ads that ask "Are you better off?"
This.
I reallyreallyreallyreally want to see someone do what that anonymous poo-bag did during the first couple months of Obama's presidency - they bought a billboard and put up a huge picture of Dubya with the caption "Miss me yet?"
I want to see billboards like that with the Obamas on them, one in each of the major cities of each of the battleground states.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Shitloads of ads that ask "Are you better off?"
This.
I reallyreallyreallyreally want to see someone do what that anonymous poo-bag did during the first couple months of Obama's presidency - they bought a billboard and put up a huge picture of Dubya with the caption "Miss me yet?"
I want to see billboards like that with the Obamas on them, one in each of the major cities of each of the battleground states.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm friends with a sort of ... devil's advocate? He's mostly on my side, but occasionally I question what he actually thinks. That said, he has a lot of "alt-right" friends who hate "SJWs". I joked about alt-right friends of his, and he said actually - all my alt-right friends are old leftists who got burned by the progressives.
One of the guys told me that "SJW Riot Squad" wanted me to die. And this was when he got fed up with "liberals" and wanted to go to something more progressive. I asked what he meant by that, this was this morning so just waiting to get clarification.
This IS the kind of difficult conversation we need.
We ALSO don't need to just shout answers. I saw one lady (a friend of above friend, but another friend LOL) said "Good I'm done being PC anymore" And I didn't get into it cuz my tablet sucks. But I decided my approach is to basically Socrates them. Ask questions, get them to answer and figure it out. The hard part is going to have to shut my mouth and listen and not scream out loud "BUT YOU ARE SO WRONG!" because listening means understanding and comprehension.
And you don't win battles by not understanding your enemy. Understanding and compassion might get some towards our side, but that's not the goal. This is a strategic thing that must be done. We must gain knowledge of the insight and general philosophy - not a caricature. And NOT poll based by "leading poll organizations" Not even fucking Pew. We need to do it ourselves and we need to experience it.
And we need to work towards a concrete goal, and just electing dems isn't enough. I disagree so much with Corb on many things, but I think this is the thing that's needed. Grassroots work to actually reach out and start to figure out how to crack this seemingly intractable nut. Not about how to "convert" them to your side, it's not about winning your little battle in the moment, it's about coming up with an understanding so you can actually have a competent fucking strategy for the future.
It's understanding a foreign language.
So - when someone says PC - say "what, exactly do you mean, please define it".
If they say "I can't say the N word anymore"
"OK. Why does that bother you."
Cuz I want to say it.
OK. Would you say you get upset when people say you're racist.
"yes." (or no - and figure out where to go from there as the path takes you)
Why?
Etc etc etc...
Understand, and draw the logic line. If possible. There will always be flaws. Including in your own, and it's good to do this with yourself. But the point being. DO NOT TRY TO WIN A BATTLE THIS IS WAR AND WE MUST LEARN TO LET BATTLES SLIDE TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE OF THE TERRAIN UNDER WHICH WE ARE DOING THIS BATTLE.
Garrison Keillor can fuck right of with "those idiots didn't vote the right way".
Look at Trumps plan APART from the hateful rhetoric. Look at his economic proposals. IT's 1800s style populism. That mean, throwing bones to workers. Whether it would even work, it's at least *something*. They eat it up, partially because that's what they want, partially because he's "not a Democrat", partially because they feel he's not talking down to them amongst other reasons. But instead of telling their stories for them, let them tell their stories themselves.
That doesn't mean you enable or justify things. It will be difficult to shut your mouth and not shout back "BUT HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT'S RACIST!?" or something of that nature.
Try to understand why they may not agree with all of Trumps proposals but why they voted for him.
I have other thoughts, but I have to leave for work.
posted by symbioid at 10:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
One of the guys told me that "SJW Riot Squad" wanted me to die. And this was when he got fed up with "liberals" and wanted to go to something more progressive. I asked what he meant by that, this was this morning so just waiting to get clarification.
This IS the kind of difficult conversation we need.
We ALSO don't need to just shout answers. I saw one lady (a friend of above friend, but another friend LOL) said "Good I'm done being PC anymore" And I didn't get into it cuz my tablet sucks. But I decided my approach is to basically Socrates them. Ask questions, get them to answer and figure it out. The hard part is going to have to shut my mouth and listen and not scream out loud "BUT YOU ARE SO WRONG!" because listening means understanding and comprehension.
And you don't win battles by not understanding your enemy. Understanding and compassion might get some towards our side, but that's not the goal. This is a strategic thing that must be done. We must gain knowledge of the insight and general philosophy - not a caricature. And NOT poll based by "leading poll organizations" Not even fucking Pew. We need to do it ourselves and we need to experience it.
And we need to work towards a concrete goal, and just electing dems isn't enough. I disagree so much with Corb on many things, but I think this is the thing that's needed. Grassroots work to actually reach out and start to figure out how to crack this seemingly intractable nut. Not about how to "convert" them to your side, it's not about winning your little battle in the moment, it's about coming up with an understanding so you can actually have a competent fucking strategy for the future.
It's understanding a foreign language.
So - when someone says PC - say "what, exactly do you mean, please define it".
If they say "I can't say the N word anymore"
"OK. Why does that bother you."
Cuz I want to say it.
OK. Would you say you get upset when people say you're racist.
"yes." (or no - and figure out where to go from there as the path takes you)
Why?
Etc etc etc...
Understand, and draw the logic line. If possible. There will always be flaws. Including in your own, and it's good to do this with yourself. But the point being. DO NOT TRY TO WIN A BATTLE THIS IS WAR AND WE MUST LEARN TO LET BATTLES SLIDE TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE OF THE TERRAIN UNDER WHICH WE ARE DOING THIS BATTLE.
Garrison Keillor can fuck right of with "those idiots didn't vote the right way".
Look at Trumps plan APART from the hateful rhetoric. Look at his economic proposals. IT's 1800s style populism. That mean, throwing bones to workers. Whether it would even work, it's at least *something*. They eat it up, partially because that's what they want, partially because he's "not a Democrat", partially because they feel he's not talking down to them amongst other reasons. But instead of telling their stories for them, let them tell their stories themselves.
That doesn't mean you enable or justify things. It will be difficult to shut your mouth and not shout back "BUT HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT'S RACIST!?" or something of that nature.
Try to understand why they may not agree with all of Trumps proposals but why they voted for him.
I have other thoughts, but I have to leave for work.
posted by symbioid at 10:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, one possible contributor to the enormous polling failure that I haven't seen discussed yet is the "Spirit Cooking" email, which was one of the last Wikileaks drops before the election. If you missed it: the performance artist Marina Abramovic had John Podesta's brother at one of her events, and invited John along. There's no evidence he came, and Clinton herself wasn't involved at all. But some of Abramovic's art is edgy and weird-looking, with fake blood and naked people, so the Drudge/Breitbart world had a field day with it - Satanic rituals! Hillary is a cannibal!
And we barely noticed this (it was just before the Comey reversal and a lot of other stuff was going on) or only mentioned it to say lol look at these whackjobs, because it was so ridiculous. I don't remember if the mainstream news even picked it up. But hundreds of thousands of people on Twitter and Facebook were losing their minds. #SpiritCooking was the number one trending topic, and nearly everyone I saw was dead serious about it. White evangelicals weren't going to vote for Clinton in any case, but I wonder how many of them were planning on sitting out a contest between a rapist and a nasty woman but not one between a rapist and a devil worshiper.
posted by theodolite at 10:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
And we barely noticed this (it was just before the Comey reversal and a lot of other stuff was going on) or only mentioned it to say lol look at these whackjobs, because it was so ridiculous. I don't remember if the mainstream news even picked it up. But hundreds of thousands of people on Twitter and Facebook were losing their minds. #SpiritCooking was the number one trending topic, and nearly everyone I saw was dead serious about it. White evangelicals weren't going to vote for Clinton in any case, but I wonder how many of them were planning on sitting out a contest between a rapist and a nasty woman but not one between a rapist and a devil worshiper.
posted by theodolite at 10:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
My biggest take away from this election is a collection of lessons I already had learned (given that called the Election on the 28th of October, you will have to forgive me, I felt prescient and horrified):
- People have no sense of history, and therefore no real means to test things against it
- Fame continues to be more important than substance
- People with no sense of history can only look at contemporary examples and therefore draw incorrect conclusions
- People will blame the loser for losing instead of asking why the winner won
- Almost everyone but the persecuted forget all the times the persecuted just "took it on the chin" and act like the persecuted are the real aggressors when they eventually fight back
- Alternatively they will act like the persecuted person liked being persecuted
- Individuals can be intelligent and caring and have empathy, but give them a cohort and they will become cruel and vengeful in as much time as it takes someone to start chanting ANYTHING
- The TEA party was a massive protest movement born out of discomfort with a Black President and while they didn't take part in Direct Action (mostly by dint of being made up of older white people) they did disrupt the government and their efforts continue to bear fruits today, they remain useful forces to be marshaled in the name of blind ignorance
- People will vote for incumbents, no matter what. Name recognition matters even more than record
'Cabinet of Horrors' Takes Shape
From the last thread:
kakistocracy (n) — government by the worst persons; a form of government in which the worst persons are in power.
I cannot fathom the amount of damage these people will be able to do in the next 2 (and likely 4) years.
posted by Gaz Errant at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
From the last thread:
kakistocracy (n) — government by the worst persons; a form of government in which the worst persons are in power.
I cannot fathom the amount of damage these people will be able to do in the next 2 (and likely 4) years.
posted by Gaz Errant at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Was this call after he had his meeting with Obama that he was crowing about being so much longer then it should be?
This reminds me - I found myself hoping last night that President Obama would walk the president elect into one of Bill Hicks' smoke filled rooms, where he would be told what was really going to happen.
How horrible is it that I hope there's a star chamber that wil control the president of the free world?
posted by Mooski at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
This reminds me - I found myself hoping last night that President Obama would walk the president elect into one of Bill Hicks' smoke filled rooms, where he would be told what was really going to happen.
How horrible is it that I hope there's a star chamber that wil control the president of the free world?
posted by Mooski at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, I've joined a political party and volunteered to help a digital rights group. I've started reading much more political activism material, and find myself considering just how much of a reset of the political system I'm going to work towards.
There needs to be radical reform of the mechanisms of democracy, of the sort that is not easy to make happen because it will disrupt the party system. What will it take to make that happen? I don't know but I suspect when I do, I'll be prepared to help do it.
Brexit. Trump.
Enough.
Hand me my tuba.
posted by Devonian at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
There needs to be radical reform of the mechanisms of democracy, of the sort that is not easy to make happen because it will disrupt the party system. What will it take to make that happen? I don't know but I suspect when I do, I'll be prepared to help do it.
Brexit. Trump.
Enough.
Hand me my tuba.
posted by Devonian at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
I guess we'll find out if he was lying to American voters then or he's lying to President Park now.
What makes him so scary is that I don't think he's ever lying. Or at least he doesn't believe he is. He says whatever comes into his head at the time without even thinking about it. He can't lie, because he doesn't really believe anything. He just says stuff, and keeps saying stuff and more stuff and more stuff, without considering content or implications. It's why I'm so scared, because this kind of guy as a president makes the future impossible to predict. It makes five minutes from now impossible to predict. He is a non-person, with non-opinions and non-ideas.
posted by something something at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
What makes him so scary is that I don't think he's ever lying. Or at least he doesn't believe he is. He says whatever comes into his head at the time without even thinking about it. He can't lie, because he doesn't really believe anything. He just says stuff, and keeps saying stuff and more stuff and more stuff, without considering content or implications. It's why I'm so scared, because this kind of guy as a president makes the future impossible to predict. It makes five minutes from now impossible to predict. He is a non-person, with non-opinions and non-ideas.
posted by something something at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
Frowner: This is why I don't have a lot of faith in being nice. You wouldn't know it online, but in life I'm a really go-along-to-get-along person, and what I've been realizing lately is that no matter how nice, charming, charismatic and friendly I am, that doesn't stop straight cis men from threatening me with violence. And if it doesn't work now, how will it work in five years when every document I have has a pink triangle on it?
One of the things that came up in a discussion group was the difference between being nice and being kind. Nice too often involves taking a dive in the area of self-respect for the sake of the other person's ego. Kind includes ways to assert yourself without causing needless harm.
Regardless, too often this whole fucking tone argument becomes Kantian Categorical Imperative run amok, and I think we need groups like Black Lives Matter and Queer Nation as well as Democratic PR volunteers willing to walk the line between nice and kind.
tonycpsu: I guess we'll find out if he was lying to American voters then or he's lying to President Park now.
Why not both?
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
One of the things that came up in a discussion group was the difference between being nice and being kind. Nice too often involves taking a dive in the area of self-respect for the sake of the other person's ego. Kind includes ways to assert yourself without causing needless harm.
Regardless, too often this whole fucking tone argument becomes Kantian Categorical Imperative run amok, and I think we need groups like Black Lives Matter and Queer Nation as well as Democratic PR volunteers willing to walk the line between nice and kind.
tonycpsu: I guess we'll find out if he was lying to American voters then or he's lying to President Park now.
Why not both?
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
(On the note about history, Democrats next opportunities are over the next 2 years, Local Elections and House Races, they need to focus on the here and now God Damn it)
posted by NiteMayr at 10:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by NiteMayr at 10:54 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think changing minds by “being nice” is, as Frowner says, often a nonstarter for people who are experiencing discrimination.
However, I also agree with corb that it works if you have the privilege and the spare emotional labor to do so. Instead of causing people to double down, it sometimes gets them to double take, try to justify, and even apologize. Even Fox News types. They are usually ready for accusations of prejudice, which they take proudly. They are less ready for responses that boil down to "you should be better than this."
Phrases I’ve had good experience with:
“Please don’t use that word around me.”
“Please do not talk about my friends and loved ones in that way. It is hurtful to me.”
“That sounds like a very unkind/unloving way to talk about another person.” (V. useful w/ avowed evangelicals)
“I think that is a very simplistic way of looking at a complicated situation.”
“That does not match any of the experiences or viewpoints of people I know.”
None foolproof, of course. But if you’re white, cis, and straight, you might give them a shot. Let people know that this viewpoint of the world hurts all of us. Don’t brush it off. Make one less safe space for racists/homophobes/Islamophobes/anti-Semites, even if the space is only “the area around your cubicle”.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
However, I also agree with corb that it works if you have the privilege and the spare emotional labor to do so. Instead of causing people to double down, it sometimes gets them to double take, try to justify, and even apologize. Even Fox News types. They are usually ready for accusations of prejudice, which they take proudly. They are less ready for responses that boil down to "you should be better than this."
Phrases I’ve had good experience with:
“Please don’t use that word around me.”
“Please do not talk about my friends and loved ones in that way. It is hurtful to me.”
“That sounds like a very unkind/unloving way to talk about another person.” (V. useful w/ avowed evangelicals)
“I think that is a very simplistic way of looking at a complicated situation.”
“That does not match any of the experiences or viewpoints of people I know.”
None foolproof, of course. But if you’re white, cis, and straight, you might give them a shot. Let people know that this viewpoint of the world hurts all of us. Don’t brush it off. Make one less safe space for racists/homophobes/Islamophobes/anti-Semites, even if the space is only “the area around your cubicle”.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
Or "quit being a dick" is good, too.
posted by petebest at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by petebest at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think the Bernie Sanders movement can be fairly compared to the Greens or any other recent third party attempt. It is a genuine movement speaking to what the Democratic party should be. The Democratic party is captive to corporate interests and I highly doubt that attempts to clean the party out will be successful. Trump's election, and Sanders successes and Hillary's lack thereof are a clear indication that Americans are craving a substantial change. A Sanders party could bring many prominent Democrats with it and represents a real opportunity to break the two party system. This is the moment of big change, if that isn't already obvious.
posted by molecicco at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by molecicco at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
It has to be two years from now. Mid-terms have mattered so very much, Democrats/liberals/whatever can not just bank on getting the Presidency every 4 years. The last six years have clearly demonstrated with destructive force Congress can be to going forward.
There's also traditionally pushback against the President's party during the midterms (boy howdy, was there ever in 2010!). Democrats can take a time to lick their wounds, but then I see a genuine grassroots movement arising from the 3 million-plus members of Pantsuit Nation.
Let's face it: The Trump presidency is likely to be a disaster that makes George W. Bush look like Marcus Aurelius. The factory jobs aren't coming back to Ohio, but the rich are going to make out like bandits with the tax cut that's likely to be the Republicans' first order of business. Many of the people who voted for Trump out of "economic anxiety" are not going to like what they see, especially if the Republicans really do try to roll back the New Deal, and the Democrats need to be in a position to speak to them about it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
There's also traditionally pushback against the President's party during the midterms (boy howdy, was there ever in 2010!). Democrats can take a time to lick their wounds, but then I see a genuine grassroots movement arising from the 3 million-plus members of Pantsuit Nation.
Let's face it: The Trump presidency is likely to be a disaster that makes George W. Bush look like Marcus Aurelius. The factory jobs aren't coming back to Ohio, but the rich are going to make out like bandits with the tax cut that's likely to be the Republicans' first order of business. Many of the people who voted for Trump out of "economic anxiety" are not going to like what they see, especially if the Republicans really do try to roll back the New Deal, and the Democrats need to be in a position to speak to them about it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
(I shouldn't have said white evangelicals in my comment above - because in fact one of the more surprising polling errors was that 5-7% of black people voted for Trump, when that number was closer to 0 in nearly all the crosstabs I remember seeing throughout the race. And there were a lot of non-white faces in the #spiritcooking feed last Friday afternoon.)
posted by theodolite at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by theodolite at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am considering an approach of, "I am so glad I don't have to be 'politically correct' any more and I can just call a racist a racist."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
People talk about 2018 and 2020 elections, and those are important, but you know what Republicans already have their eyes on? Those 2017 local elections for things like judges, school board, mayor, etc. We could start there.
posted by drezdn at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 10:59 AM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
Look at Trumps plan APART from the hateful rhetoric. Look at his economic proposals.
A lot of the hateful rhetoric affects economics. Removing health insurance, removing benefits, stopping immigration, things that have historically helped keep the workforce strong.
posted by zutalors! at 11:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
People have no sense of history, and therefore no real means to test things against it
We learn from history that we do not learn from history.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
We learn from history that we do not learn from history.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:00 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Throwing this idea out, since now's the time to get it done:
RidesToTheDMV.org, a website and fund that helps voters without ID fix that well ahead of the next election.
Target NC, WI, TX, et cetera. Coordinate rides to the DMV and financial assistance for those who will lose precious work hours getting this done.
posted by ocschwar at 11:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
RidesToTheDMV.org, a website and fund that helps voters without ID fix that well ahead of the next election.
Target NC, WI, TX, et cetera. Coordinate rides to the DMV and financial assistance for those who will lose precious work hours getting this done.
posted by ocschwar at 11:01 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Democratic party is captive to corporate interests and I highly doubt that attempts to clean the party out will be successful.
Why not? The thing about being totally out of power is that the corporate interests suddenly don't give a shit about you anymore. They'll kick in a few shekels just to keep up appearances between old friends, but you will see the OpenSecrets charts trending very far toward the GOP. The Dems are going to have to find other sources of support to supplement this loss in income, and Sanders has provided a template for how that can work. He, Obama, Hillary, and whoever else wants to participate in the rebuild are just going to have to find a way to extend that campaign activity outside the campaign season.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why not? The thing about being totally out of power is that the corporate interests suddenly don't give a shit about you anymore. They'll kick in a few shekels just to keep up appearances between old friends, but you will see the OpenSecrets charts trending very far toward the GOP. The Dems are going to have to find other sources of support to supplement this loss in income, and Sanders has provided a template for how that can work. He, Obama, Hillary, and whoever else wants to participate in the rebuild are just going to have to find a way to extend that campaign activity outside the campaign season.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:02 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
So yes I agree, wholeheartedly and without reservation, that Hillary Clinton was a flawed candidate. But there’s an extra word in that sentence. It’s the extra word that would still be in that sentence if you replaced the name “Hillary Clinton” with any other name in the recorded history of the world.
what in the hell is the extra word, I've read this fifty times and I don't get it
I'm kind of hoping that Clinton and Obama don't fade into the background as is expected of failed candidates and ex presidents, and come back swinging as a feminist and civil rights organizer.
One of my last optimistic comments before the election results started rolling in had to do with wanting to see NGAF Hillary at last. I still want to see that Hillary.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
what in the hell is the extra word, I've read this fifty times and I don't get it
I'm kind of hoping that Clinton and Obama don't fade into the background as is expected of failed candidates and ex presidents, and come back swinging as a feminist and civil rights organizer.
One of my last optimistic comments before the election results started rolling in had to do with wanting to see NGAF Hillary at last. I still want to see that Hillary.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:03 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, I wonder what will be in the letter that President Obama will leave for President Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
what in the hell is the extra word, I've read this fifty times and I don't get it
The extra word is "flawed". She's a candidate, all candidates are flawed, therefore "flawed" is unnecessary.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
The extra word is "flawed". She's a candidate, all candidates are flawed, therefore "flawed" is unnecessary.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:04 AM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I failed to note earlier that election night (3am for us) my husband couldn't understand why the poorer southern states were perennially red. After touching a bit on the obvious racism, historical and current, I forever broke my husband's idea of the American Dream and the USA's much vaunted Freedom by briefly outlining gerrymandering and voter suppression/disenfranchisement. Go me?
Trump's transition website seems to be live. This is really what its name is?
I think www.GreataGain.gov is the almost perfect URL for Trump. Really it only needs a subdomain for perfection: Trumps.GreataGain.gov say it out loud with a fake Jersey accent
I want to see billboards like that with the Obamas on them, one in each of the major cities of each of the battleground states.
I want Hillary, too: "Now how about those emails, fuckers?"
posted by romakimmy at 11:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Trump's transition website seems to be live. This is really what its name is?
I think www.GreataGain.gov is the almost perfect URL for Trump. Really it only needs a subdomain for perfection: Trumps.GreataGain.gov say it out loud with a fake Jersey accent
I want to see billboards like that with the Obamas on them, one in each of the major cities of each of the battleground states.
I want Hillary, too: "Now how about those emails, fuckers?"
posted by romakimmy at 11:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, I wonder what will be in the letter that President Obama will leave for President Trump.
I'm sure it will be sage and salient advice exhorting him to be a uniter, not a divider. But if there were any justice in the world, it'd just be a grainy photocopy of his ass.
posted by Mayor West at 11:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
I'm sure it will be sage and salient advice exhorting him to be a uniter, not a divider. But if there were any justice in the world, it'd just be a grainy photocopy of his ass.
posted by Mayor West at 11:07 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
I think www.GreataGain.gov is the almost perfect URL for Trump.
It's not GrEatAGain.gov?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not GrEatAGain.gov?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
We learn from history that we do not learn from history.
Nader panem nostrum furatur iterum.
posted by petebest at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nader panem nostrum furatur iterum.
posted by petebest at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Joe Salazar (D), my Colorado state house representative, supported Sanders in the primary and Clinton in the general. After winning re-election, he posted a message on Facebook that, for me, shows how Sanders supports have and will continue to work within the Democratic Party even when we disagree, sometimes strongly, with our fellow Democrats:
My run as an elected official was never about compromising myself to keep my seat. It was always about doing right by the People. It was about standing up to my own damn Party on things like Amendment 71 (I'm going to hold a grudge on this one for a long time). My family knows this run for office has always been about you, all our children, our future generations, Mother Earth and a more understanding world. I love, thank and honor my family (particularly my wife and daughters) for allowing me to do this.posted by audi alteram partem at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
After tonight, we will have a lot of work to do and we may face some dark times. Do not despair! We will get through this together!
Love you guys!
Joe
I'm sure it will be sage and salient advice exhorting him to be a uniter, not a divider. But if there were any justice in the world, it'd just be a grainy photocopy of his ass.
I might just go with a picture of RuPaul saying, "And don't fuck it up."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I might just go with a picture of RuPaul saying, "And don't fuck it up."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think the Bernie Sanders movement can be fairly compared to the Greens or any other recent third party attempt. It is a genuine movement speaking to what the Democratic party should be. The Democratic party is captive to corporate interests and I highly doubt that attempts to clean the party out will be successful. Trump's election, and Sanders successes and Hillary's lack thereof are a clear indication that Americans are craving a substantial change. A Sanders party could bring many prominent Democrats with it and represents a real opportunity to break the two party system. This is the moment of big change, if that isn't already obvious.
How much time do you have? I think lots of what you say is likely true. Starting a new party and getting it to the point where it could have an affect could take years. It doesn't just happen without masses of structural and administrative organizing. And that doesn't count the length of time for people in the new party to agree on what they are all about in minute detail. The larger the group of people involved the more time this takes.
posted by Jalliah at 11:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
How much time do you have? I think lots of what you say is likely true. Starting a new party and getting it to the point where it could have an affect could take years. It doesn't just happen without masses of structural and administrative organizing. And that doesn't count the length of time for people in the new party to agree on what they are all about in minute detail. The larger the group of people involved the more time this takes.
posted by Jalliah at 11:09 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
acb:Have there been any good accounts of this process as it happened in Nazi Germany
Have you read the diaries of diaries of Viktor Klemperer? He was a German Jew (newly defined as such under the race laws), married to a gentile, who survived the war via Dresden. They address the creeping racism in Germany in the 1930s and through the war in exquisite, terrifying detail - he had a foot in both communities and a knack for the telling observation.
posted by Rumple at 1:28 PM on November 10 [7 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
Rumple, you beat me to it. One of the most striking moments for me in I Will Bear Witness is in December 1941 or January 1942, when a Gentile friend mentions to him that he's seeing a lot more Jews walking on the street these days, so the friend figures they must have been emboldened by the US' entry into the war. The friend is completely unaware that Jews have just been banned from riding the streetcars.
posted by McCoy Pauley at 11:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
Have you read the diaries of diaries of Viktor Klemperer? He was a German Jew (newly defined as such under the race laws), married to a gentile, who survived the war via Dresden. They address the creeping racism in Germany in the 1930s and through the war in exquisite, terrifying detail - he had a foot in both communities and a knack for the telling observation.
posted by Rumple at 1:28 PM on November 10 [7 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
Rumple, you beat me to it. One of the most striking moments for me in I Will Bear Witness is in December 1941 or January 1942, when a Gentile friend mentions to him that he's seeing a lot more Jews walking on the street these days, so the friend figures they must have been emboldened by the US' entry into the war. The friend is completely unaware that Jews have just been banned from riding the streetcars.
posted by McCoy Pauley at 11:10 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
I came to the conclusion that every time someone said Clinton was a "flawed" candidate the flaw was that she was a woman.
posted by bongo_x at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [43 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, I wonder what will be in the letter that President Obama will leave for President Trump.
"Mr. President -- I ask of you one thing, and one thing only... Ah, who am I kidding. You're not reading this. I could put anything here, and it wouldn't matter. BUSH DID 9/11. See? I don't believe at all that you'll ever tell anyone that I said that, because you didn't read this note. I WAS BORN IN KENYA. YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. Never gonna see that on the news either. Whoo... what else should I right here? Hold on, lemme ask Joe. Joe says BUTTS LOL. That doesn't help. He says that a lot. Okay, I guess that's it then. Good luck. That's for me, really. You've already got pretty much all the luck there could possibly be in the world. So I'll just wish for a little for me and mine. - BHO"
posted by Etrigan at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
"Mr. President -- I ask of you one thing, and one thing only... Ah, who am I kidding. You're not reading this. I could put anything here, and it wouldn't matter. BUSH DID 9/11. See? I don't believe at all that you'll ever tell anyone that I said that, because you didn't read this note. I WAS BORN IN KENYA. YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. Never gonna see that on the news either. Whoo... what else should I right here? Hold on, lemme ask Joe. Joe says BUTTS LOL. That doesn't help. He says that a lot. Okay, I guess that's it then. Good luck. That's for me, really. You've already got pretty much all the luck there could possibly be in the world. So I'll just wish for a little for me and mine. - BHO"
posted by Etrigan at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
At the risk of having the anti-Nate-Silver crowd jump all over me: What A Difference 2 Percentage Points Makes
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:11 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just imagine the letter the president-elect leaves for his successor.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:12 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by kirkaracha at 11:12 AM on November 10, 2016
I don't trust anything he says. He came out conciliatory after meeting the Mexican President, and was back to "fuck Mexicans" as soon as he was in front of a crowd.
The dude is a pathological narcissist. One of the symptoms is that he'll say anything to bask in the approval of whomever he's with. You want to see this in real time, look at his behavior during rallies. He doesn't have a point to what he says, his only goal is to read the crowd and repeat whatever will get him cheers. This also means when he's on the phone with South Korea, if they praise him he'll say what they want to hear. If Obama flatters him he'll say what makes Obama happy. He's tremendously susceptible to manipulation provided you keep the flattery coming, and it is what makes him so dangerous. Putin understands this. The bigots around him understand this. Things start failing when he feels you don't respect him, give the impression that the ideas you feed him are not his own, or expect him to resist retaliating against even the smallest slight. His managers fail because they ultimately expected him to behave strategically of his own volition, rather than manipulating him into believing the strategic behavior was what he wanted to do all along.
The only remotely political issue Trump has stuck with for any amount of time is birtherism. He's otherwise a blank slate motivated by naught but ego and privilege.
I suspect the power struggles that will be going on behind the scenes of the Trump White House will rival the scheming seen within the Ottoman courts. Or not--Bannon's entire existence is due to his ability to manipulate men like Trump for his own purposes. That is the point of Breitbart. Could be nobody will be able to unseat him. Even the most detestable members of Congress still expect a certain degree of rationality that you simply can't get with that creature.
posted by Anonymous at 11:13 AM on November 10, 2016
The dude is a pathological narcissist. One of the symptoms is that he'll say anything to bask in the approval of whomever he's with. You want to see this in real time, look at his behavior during rallies. He doesn't have a point to what he says, his only goal is to read the crowd and repeat whatever will get him cheers. This also means when he's on the phone with South Korea, if they praise him he'll say what they want to hear. If Obama flatters him he'll say what makes Obama happy. He's tremendously susceptible to manipulation provided you keep the flattery coming, and it is what makes him so dangerous. Putin understands this. The bigots around him understand this. Things start failing when he feels you don't respect him, give the impression that the ideas you feed him are not his own, or expect him to resist retaliating against even the smallest slight. His managers fail because they ultimately expected him to behave strategically of his own volition, rather than manipulating him into believing the strategic behavior was what he wanted to do all along.
The only remotely political issue Trump has stuck with for any amount of time is birtherism. He's otherwise a blank slate motivated by naught but ego and privilege.
I suspect the power struggles that will be going on behind the scenes of the Trump White House will rival the scheming seen within the Ottoman courts. Or not--Bannon's entire existence is due to his ability to manipulate men like Trump for his own purposes. That is the point of Breitbart. Could be nobody will be able to unseat him. Even the most detestable members of Congress still expect a certain degree of rationality that you simply can't get with that creature.
posted by Anonymous at 11:13 AM on November 10, 2016
That said, he has a lot of "alt-right" friends who hate "SJWs". I joked about alt-right friends of his, and he said actually - all my alt-right friends are old leftists who got burned by the progressives.
To be fair, there really is a problem of left-on-left harassment and bullying happening on places like tumblr and twitter, including stalking and doxing. Both platforms are capitalizing drama. The peer-to-peer structures of those media limit the creation of meaningful boundaries and context, and serve as a megaphone for crankery. I find the solution there is to just disengage from those platforms rather than do a backflip to alt-right wankery.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
To be fair, there really is a problem of left-on-left harassment and bullying happening on places like tumblr and twitter, including stalking and doxing. Both platforms are capitalizing drama. The peer-to-peer structures of those media limit the creation of meaningful boundaries and context, and serve as a megaphone for crankery. I find the solution there is to just disengage from those platforms rather than do a backflip to alt-right wankery.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:14 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
'We Mourn, We Fight, We Love': Moving Forward as a Trans Dad in Trump's America
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
White nationalism and bigotry is an important factor and should not be minimized. Yet-
"Preliminary, but HRC's fall among black women rel to 2012 was, in raw vote terms, almost as much as her fall among white men."
This must be verified. If Clinton really failed to rally female and minority support (at least to the level that Obama did), despite Trump representing white nationalism (and hence, an existential threat), what does that say about her candidacy?
The problem I have with the "they're bigots, plain and simple" narrative is that it's defeatist. "Some people are irredeemable, ignorant haters and should get out (of our political process)" is not a valid strategy. If people want to give up on them and work around it, that's fine, but then their votes- and electoral votes- need to be made up for. If the above is accurate, her campaign did not achieve that.
That all said, this is also true: "I'm from the rural midwest. All of this talk about coastal elites needing to understand more of America has it backwards."
"I think we can at least raise our standards and not deify middle america as real america."
posted by Apocryphon at 11:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Preliminary, but HRC's fall among black women rel to 2012 was, in raw vote terms, almost as much as her fall among white men."
This must be verified. If Clinton really failed to rally female and minority support (at least to the level that Obama did), despite Trump representing white nationalism (and hence, an existential threat), what does that say about her candidacy?
The problem I have with the "they're bigots, plain and simple" narrative is that it's defeatist. "Some people are irredeemable, ignorant haters and should get out (of our political process)" is not a valid strategy. If people want to give up on them and work around it, that's fine, but then their votes- and electoral votes- need to be made up for. If the above is accurate, her campaign did not achieve that.
That all said, this is also true: "I'm from the rural midwest. All of this talk about coastal elites needing to understand more of America has it backwards."
"I think we can at least raise our standards and not deify middle america as real america."
posted by Apocryphon at 11:15 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I forever broke my husband's idea of the American Dream and the USA's much vaunted Freedom
A lot of people need this, unfortunately. We are taught to believe in the [insert nation of choice] dream, and "land of opportunity", and "hard work always pays off" bullshit from a very young age -and liberals perpetuate it as much as conservatives - and it simply isn't true. Letting go of it can be one of those red pill moments that are life-changing.
posted by rocket88 at 11:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
A lot of people need this, unfortunately. We are taught to believe in the [insert nation of choice] dream, and "land of opportunity", and "hard work always pays off" bullshit from a very young age -and liberals perpetuate it as much as conservatives - and it simply isn't true. Letting go of it can be one of those red pill moments that are life-changing.
posted by rocket88 at 11:16 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Seeing that our president elect always seems to parrot the last person he's spoken to, maybe Obama should spend a LOT of time with him and maintain daily contact for the next four years.
posted by mochapickle at 11:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 11:17 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
There was a thing on the radio yesterday about the fate of Obamacare, and how nobody has any idea what the "replace" of "repeal and replace"Trump may be the kind of person who would say anything to get elected (and Clinton probably is too), but he does go into some detail about his healthcare plans, FWIW.
posted by Coventry at 11:18 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
- Completely repeal Obamacare. Our elected representatives must eliminate the individual mandate. No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to.
- Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.
- Allow individuals to fully deduct health insurance premium payments from their tax returns under the current tax system. Businesses are allowed to take these deductions so why wouldn’t Congress allow individuals the same exemptions? As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance. We must review basic options for Medicaid and work with states to ensure that those who want healthcare coverage can have it.
- Allow individuals to use Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Contributions into HSAs should be tax-free and should be allowed to accumulate. These accounts would become part of the estate of the individual and could be passed on to heirs without fear of any death penalty. These plans should be particularly attractive to young people who are healthy and can afford high-deductible insurance plans. These funds can be used by any member of a family without penalty. The flexibility and security provided by HSAs will be of great benefit to all who participate.
- Require price transparency from all healthcare providers, especially doctors and healthcare organizations like clinics and hospitals. Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure.
- Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.
- Remove barriers to entry into free markets for drug providers that offer safe, reliable and cheaper products. Congress will need the courage to step away from the special interests and do what is right for America. Though the pharmaceutical industry is in the private sector, drug companies provide a public service. Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers.
Tom Scocca: Donald Trump Is The Leader America Was Promised:
Seventeen months ago, Donald Trump hired actors to cheer for his campaign announcement and told people they were watching a movement. He rarely told the truth about anything thereafter, till his deceit and sloppy contempt became his biggest qualification: If the white electorate could make a lazy grifter president, they would know for a fact that they were truly capable of anything.posted by palindromic at 11:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Against this, Hillary Clinton had what? The cities, yes, securely. One and a half of the coasts, unbreakable for more than a generation now. It was a solid foundation if you wanted to win the whole country, but Trump had no interest in winning the whole country. Obama had won as much of the country as he could, and pledged to govern it all, and in return he got obstruction. The Republican governors of the South and Midwest, including the decisive battlegrounds of Florida and Wisconsin, refused the expansion of Medicaid for their own citizens, so they could tell people that Obama hadn’t done anything for them.
Govern badly, and convince the people that government doesn’t work. That was the long-term strategy, and it paid off.
The problem I have with the "they're bigots, plain and simple" narrative
Where is that narrative on display in this thread? I see people saying we should confront bigotry. If they're irredeemable, then why would we bother to confront it?
To the extent that anyone is saying certain groups shouldn't be kowtowed to, it's about the most efficient application of scarce resources, including time, money, and "even"s. If it takes more of those resources to bridge the gap to a bigot than it does to get more non-bigots out to the polls next time, why would they prioritize the bigots?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Where is that narrative on display in this thread? I see people saying we should confront bigotry. If they're irredeemable, then why would we bother to confront it?
To the extent that anyone is saying certain groups shouldn't be kowtowed to, it's about the most efficient application of scarce resources, including time, money, and "even"s. If it takes more of those resources to bridge the gap to a bigot than it does to get more non-bigots out to the polls next time, why would they prioritize the bigots?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Buddy was a blowhard car salesman, a business leader who thought he knew it all, and appeared early in Friday Night Lights as a kind of villain, an aggravating former quarterback throwing his money and weight around. But Buddy soon became more sympathetic. Yes, he was a bloviating self-aggrandizer who always thought he was right, but he was also loyal, good-humored, and well-meaning, a pain in the ass, sure, but a lovable, irascible pal. I have been thinking about Buddy Garrity because he has been comforting me. I think he would have voted for Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:20 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:20 AM on November 10, 2016
People do not understand that when trans women begin to be erased from the daylight, it is the signal that our civilization is slowly dimming toward a darker age.
When we, trans women, emerge into the light, we mark the promise a better possible world. When we emerge and are allowed to exist in public is when you may allow yourself to know the world is healing and getting better.
When trans women are no longer actively protected and forced back into the shadows is when everyone else who does not "fit the mold" should look behind their shoulders and wonder if that dark force that erased trans women is now hunting for them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:54 AM on May 5
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
When we, trans women, emerge into the light, we mark the promise a better possible world. When we emerge and are allowed to exist in public is when you may allow yourself to know the world is healing and getting better.
When trans women are no longer actively protected and forced back into the shadows is when everyone else who does not "fit the mold" should look behind their shoulders and wonder if that dark force that erased trans women is now hunting for them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:54 AM on May 5
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:20 AM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
What makes him so scary is that I don't think he's ever lying. Or at least he doesn't believe he is. He says whatever comes into his head at the time without even thinking about it. He can't lie, because he doesn't really believe anything. He just says stuff, and keeps saying stuff and more stuff and more stuff, without considering content or implications.
Exactly this.
Perhaps someone less vile than Bannon will worm their way into Trump's ear. "Less vile" being a low bar--I'm thinking someone who doesn't seriously believe lynch mobs need to make a comeback.
posted by Anonymous at 11:21 AM on November 10, 2016
Exactly this.
Perhaps someone less vile than Bannon will worm their way into Trump's ear. "Less vile" being a low bar--I'm thinking someone who doesn't seriously believe lynch mobs need to make a comeback.
posted by Anonymous at 11:21 AM on November 10, 2016
The night before the election, a friend told me he had become a member of the social democratic party here.
Over here in Poundland, I joined the Labour Party before the Brexit vote, have since become a paid supporter of the Guardian, and will be donating to the EFF and others very soon. However flawed these organizations may be, they need supporting if they're going to stand a snowball's chance of standing up to the brave new world order that is appearing. Also, in Labour's case, they need ordinary people turning up to meetings, making a fuss, and telling them to stop playing politics and get on with the job...
And a question from a Limey who knows little of US politics: shouldn't Comey's intervention so close to the election day be taken as an attempt to influence the outcome, and render the result suspect? ISTR Mr Trump slinging accusations of ballot rigging around, and it would seem to me that this was a very similar tactic...
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 11:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Over here in Poundland, I joined the Labour Party before the Brexit vote, have since become a paid supporter of the Guardian, and will be donating to the EFF and others very soon. However flawed these organizations may be, they need supporting if they're going to stand a snowball's chance of standing up to the brave new world order that is appearing. Also, in Labour's case, they need ordinary people turning up to meetings, making a fuss, and telling them to stop playing politics and get on with the job...
And a question from a Limey who knows little of US politics: shouldn't Comey's intervention so close to the election day be taken as an attempt to influence the outcome, and render the result suspect? ISTR Mr Trump slinging accusations of ballot rigging around, and it would seem to me that this was a very similar tactic...
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 11:22 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am so nauseous. I wonder if I'll feel this way for the rest of my life. I work with homeless people - watching 100+ people lining up at one of our local food bank pickup sites this morning, I felt hopeless about how much worse everything is going to get. I am thinking of my trans loved ones so much right now, my own queer, gender non-conforming self, my Muslim and Latinx neighbors, and my daughter and her peers growing up into this world. This is such a horror show.
What should we be doing right now? Ideas I've had so far:
- Keep attending demonstrations in the street
- Ask local mosques if they want specific types of support and solidarity
- Donations to large environmental, civil rights, and civil liberties groups
- Be extra kind and generous with everyone I meet
What else should we be doing?
posted by latkes at 11:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
What should we be doing right now? Ideas I've had so far:
- Keep attending demonstrations in the street
- Ask local mosques if they want specific types of support and solidarity
- Donations to large environmental, civil rights, and civil liberties groups
- Be extra kind and generous with everyone I meet
What else should we be doing?
posted by latkes at 11:23 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Bernie Sanders Backs Rep. Keith Ellison For DNC Chair:
posted by palindromic at 11:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
Sanders gave his pick for DNC chair in an interview with the Associated Press. Ellison, perhaps more than other candidates to succeed former chair Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL), has put himself forward for the job. According to an October Politico report, Ellison had reached out to state party chairs, Hillary Clinton campaign officials and other Democrats connected to the committee.This is one way to start the transformation the Democratic Party.
Ellison and Sanders were brothers in arms for much of the presidential campaign season. Ellison, one of two Muslim members of Congress, was the second member of that body to endorse Sander’s bid for the Democratic nomination for president.
posted by palindromic at 11:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
The GOP did all in its power to prevent legislation from taking place, and therefore Obama got some stuff done via executive orders. These will all be undone by GOP. Years from now, if Dems ever get back in power, we will have the same situation and exec actions to legislate. A new pattern develops as the non-cooperation persists between parties. This will make for much uncertainty and chaos between election cycles
The GOP wisely held off voting on Supreme Court justice and now they will most likely put two of their choice on that court in the next 4-8 years.
posted by Postroad at 11:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The GOP wisely held off voting on Supreme Court justice and now they will most likely put two of their choice on that court in the next 4-8 years.
posted by Postroad at 11:24 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
These 2 charts explain how racism helped fuel Trump’s victory
So Kaufmann tried to get at the reasons white, level-10 Trump supporters might have liked the candidate so much. He asked them what they thought the most important issues facing the county were, and then compared them with the issues that people who rated their Trump support at zero prioritized. The results are in the following chart [...]Trump’s administration is looking like it’ll be very white and very male
What you see, clearly, is that Trump supporters are far more likely than Trump opponents to see immigration and terrorism — deeply tied to racial and ethnic identity — as America's top issue. They also seem quite unconcerned by economic inequality.
Of the 47 names on this list we combed from a combination of sources, just two are people of color — Ben Carson and David Clarke.posted by tonycpsu at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Just eight are women — Sarah Palin, Pam Bondi, Victoria Lipnic, Jan Brewer, Mary Fallin, Cynthia Lummis, Carol Comer, and Leslie Rutledge. And several of them are being considered for the same four positions: attorney general, secretary of labor, secretary of interior, and Environmental Protection Agency administrator.
I cannot fathom the amount of damage these people will be able to do in the next 2 (and likely 4) years.
I am nowhere near extended rational thought right now, but all signs point to impending incompetence, from the cabinet picks downward. Senior political-appointee posts will be hard to fill -- The Daily Beast has a piece suggesting difficulty even assembling a transition team on national security -- and there'll be collisions between the Standard Family NDA and federal clearance requirements once you get past the tier of potential political appointees who want none of it, as well as the career professionals who make pragmatic or conscience decisions to walk away. (Those who stay because of their commitment to public service deserve our support.)
The consequences of that are even more unpredictable and harder to repair.
posted by holgate at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am nowhere near extended rational thought right now, but all signs point to impending incompetence, from the cabinet picks downward. Senior political-appointee posts will be hard to fill -- The Daily Beast has a piece suggesting difficulty even assembling a transition team on national security -- and there'll be collisions between the Standard Family NDA and federal clearance requirements once you get past the tier of potential political appointees who want none of it, as well as the career professionals who make pragmatic or conscience decisions to walk away. (Those who stay because of their commitment to public service deserve our support.)
The consequences of that are even more unpredictable and harder to repair.
posted by holgate at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Democratic party is captive to corporate interests and I highly doubt that attempts to clean the party out will be successful. Trump's election, and Sanders successes and Hillary's lack thereof are a clear indication that Americans are craving a substantial change. A Sanders party could bring many prominent Democrats with it and represents a real opportunity to break the two party system.
Sanders' success was getting a whole bunch of his platform adopted by the Democratic party, even though he lost to Hillary by millions of votes. Hillary took that platform and won the popular vote. You're almost there within the Democratic Party, you're already trying to bring "prominent Democrats" over to this new party (I have to assume that these are already Dems that you feel are not captive to corporate interests, correct? And there's a large enough number of them to start a new party from scratch, but somehow not to alter the course of the party they're already in?) you just have to fight to finish it. Starting a new party will split the liberal vote and allow Republicans to run roughshod for at least a decade. There is no presto-quick solution to this problem, you have to work.
posted by LionIndex at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Sanders' success was getting a whole bunch of his platform adopted by the Democratic party, even though he lost to Hillary by millions of votes. Hillary took that platform and won the popular vote. You're almost there within the Democratic Party, you're already trying to bring "prominent Democrats" over to this new party (I have to assume that these are already Dems that you feel are not captive to corporate interests, correct? And there's a large enough number of them to start a new party from scratch, but somehow not to alter the course of the party they're already in?) you just have to fight to finish it. Starting a new party will split the liberal vote and allow Republicans to run roughshod for at least a decade. There is no presto-quick solution to this problem, you have to work.
posted by LionIndex at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
...with it and represents a real opportunity to break the two party system.
If you're not talking about changing how we vote in the same breath, you're just blowing hot air.
1st past the goal-post voting means we will ALWAYS have two roughly equal parties. It's just fucking MATH and there is no overcoming it.
If you're not talking about introducing ranked choice voting or something similar, you're not serious about 3rd parties.
posted by VTX at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
If you're not talking about changing how we vote in the same breath, you're just blowing hot air.
1st past the goal-post voting means we will ALWAYS have two roughly equal parties. It's just fucking MATH and there is no overcoming it.
If you're not talking about introducing ranked choice voting or something similar, you're not serious about 3rd parties.
posted by VTX at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I'm clinging to a little hope that reality TV star and person who craves respect and adulation Donald J. Trump will realize that, now that he's won the election by riding hard on the right wing, his best chance to be remembered as a hugely popular and surprisingly effective president is to pivot crazy hard to the center and be way less racist, destructive, and horrible than we all feared.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
@pgrrrls: Please cease with the white privilege bullshit of "good art will come out of this"
Yeah ... I lived through the 80s. While punk rock gave me community and a political lens that has proved incredibly useful, the multiple, formative years of abject terror of nuclear war scarred me for life. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah ... I lived through the 80s. While punk rock gave me community and a political lens that has proved incredibly useful, the multiple, formative years of abject terror of nuclear war scarred me for life. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:28 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
all signs point to impending incompetence, from the cabinet picks downwardI've underestimated him at every step of the way, and I hope I'm underestimating him now. But it does look that way.
posted by Coventry at 11:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jonathan Capehart on Channel 4 News (UK) in tears talking about his fears as a gay African-American. Heartbreaking.
posted by threetwentytwo at 11:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by threetwentytwo at 11:29 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie Sanders Backs Rep. Keith Ellison For DNC Chair:
Can DNC chairs hold office? I am totally for this plan but I also like having Ellison as my representative.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can DNC chairs hold office? I am totally for this plan but I also like having Ellison as my representative.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
We tacked pretty far to the left with our platform this time around. If I'm the DNC, my take-away if probably going to be "we need to tack more to the center/right next time if we want to win." When the Overton Window moves to the right, everything else moves to the right, too. I will be (pleasantly) stunned if things move farther to left, but we didn't exactly see a progressiven wave from 2001-09, so I'm not really expecting to see anything like the Jill Stein-led green revolution from 2017-20. Anything the DNC does to tack to the left clearly pushes out an equal or greater number of people from the center.
What I would focus on now, were I the head of the DNCircus, is immediately and aggressively start recruiting young progressives old enough to run for state offices in every state I could to run for local offices in 2018. Work to turn state houses and senates blue and develop a strong back bench so that in 8-12 years there's a large wave of experienced, progressive politicians who can start running for federal offices. I wouldn't be focusing on 2018 or even 2020 - I'd be focusing on 2022 and 2024.
I mean, of course we should work towards getting candidates elected at the federal level in 2018, but the Democrats lack a deep bench and the Republicans control way, way too many states.
all signs point to impending incompetence, from the cabinet picks downward
While one should not mistake incompetence for malice, on the ground both have the same effect.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
What I would focus on now, were I the head of the DNCircus, is immediately and aggressively start recruiting young progressives old enough to run for state offices in every state I could to run for local offices in 2018. Work to turn state houses and senates blue and develop a strong back bench so that in 8-12 years there's a large wave of experienced, progressive politicians who can start running for federal offices. I wouldn't be focusing on 2018 or even 2020 - I'd be focusing on 2022 and 2024.
I mean, of course we should work towards getting candidates elected at the federal level in 2018, but the Democrats lack a deep bench and the Republicans control way, way too many states.
all signs point to impending incompetence, from the cabinet picks downward
While one should not mistake incompetence for malice, on the ground both have the same effect.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Day One - Jalliah, your mum's friend's story is there.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
[The appointment of Ellison to chairmanship of the DNC] is one way to start the transformation the Democratic Party.How is the chair chosen? Who should be pressured to choose him, and what leverage can be brought to bear on them?
posted by Coventry at 11:31 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fred Clark, as always, has insightful things to say: White evangelicalism is white nationalism
the invention, too, of white evangelicalism as a whole — was the defense of slavery. This was not simply a “biblical” defense of immorality and injustice, it was also a form of self-deception — a device that allowed white evangelicals to defend the indefensible while pretending to themselves that doing so put them on the side of the Bible and of God. The need to think of themselves as good and righteous despite defending the massive injustice of white nationalism led to the invention of a new doctrine that allowed them to pretend that they were good and righteous because they defended the massive injustice of white nationalism.
One of the things I've been thinking about is how racism and slavery was part of our nation from the beginning, and how it has continued to be a cancer in us that erupts in unexpected and deadly ways. I don't think we'll ever get to a good place as a country till we root it out, but getting rid of cancers is hard and painful work and there's no guarantees that we'll survive the attempt.
posted by emjaybee at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
the invention, too, of white evangelicalism as a whole — was the defense of slavery. This was not simply a “biblical” defense of immorality and injustice, it was also a form of self-deception — a device that allowed white evangelicals to defend the indefensible while pretending to themselves that doing so put them on the side of the Bible and of God. The need to think of themselves as good and righteous despite defending the massive injustice of white nationalism led to the invention of a new doctrine that allowed them to pretend that they were good and righteous because they defended the massive injustice of white nationalism.
One of the things I've been thinking about is how racism and slavery was part of our nation from the beginning, and how it has continued to be a cancer in us that erupts in unexpected and deadly ways. I don't think we'll ever get to a good place as a country till we root it out, but getting rid of cancers is hard and painful work and there's no guarantees that we'll survive the attempt.
posted by emjaybee at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Can DNC chairs hold office? I am totally for this plan but I also like having Ellison as my representative.
Former DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz is the Congressional Representative of the 23rd District of Florida, so that shouldn't be a problem.
posted by palindromic at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Former DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz is the Congressional Representative of the 23rd District of Florida, so that shouldn't be a problem.
posted by palindromic at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
While one should not mistake incompetence for malice, on the ground both have the same effect.
Don't worry, when it's Newt Gingrich and Rudy Giuliani you don't have to choose!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Don't worry, when it's Newt Gingrich and Rudy Giuliani you don't have to choose!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
And a question from a Limey who knows little of US politics: shouldn't Comey's intervention so close to the election day be taken as an attempt to influence the outcome, and render the result suspect?
Question from a Yank:
An event like this in Britain would possibly trigger a hasty snap by-election, right?
The US has a rigid calendar for the federal elections, so that remedy is out of the question.
(And to re-mount my hobby horse) The rigid calendar is the biggest flaw in the Constitution. It was needed to coordinate a federal government using ox carts and row boats. It needs to go.
posted by ocschwar at 11:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
What makes him so scary is that I don't think he's ever lying. Or at least he doesn't believe he is. He says whatever comes into his head at the time without even thinking about it. He can't lie, because he doesn't really believe anything. He just says stuff, and keeps saying stuff and more stuff and more stuff, without considering content or implications.
I don't really agree that he's never lying. When he would point at the press pool, and say they never show the crowds, that the cameras don't turn, he knew he was lying because he knew those cameras were specifically meant to be on him the whole time, and that they were meant to be tight shots that don't show his teleprompter. He wanted the press to look crooked, not just for applause, but to show that he was an outsider that the elitist press didn't like, just like his followers think of themselves.
He is a narcissist, and he is also a very successful con man who has been screwing over people for his whole life, and no one should be underestimating him at all. When Obama was first asked about Trump being the nominee, he joked that the Democrats were happy with the RNC's choice. And now he's going to be president.
posted by airish at 11:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't really agree that he's never lying. When he would point at the press pool, and say they never show the crowds, that the cameras don't turn, he knew he was lying because he knew those cameras were specifically meant to be on him the whole time, and that they were meant to be tight shots that don't show his teleprompter. He wanted the press to look crooked, not just for applause, but to show that he was an outsider that the elitist press didn't like, just like his followers think of themselves.
He is a narcissist, and he is also a very successful con man who has been screwing over people for his whole life, and no one should be underestimating him at all. When Obama was first asked about Trump being the nominee, he joked that the Democrats were happy with the RNC's choice. And now he's going to be president.
posted by airish at 11:33 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
this should have been our first woman president. She would have won in a landslide.
posted by any major dude at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by any major dude at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2016
Elizabeth Warren did not want to be president.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
any major dude: I was so dismayed when she chose not to run.
posted by Coventry at 11:35 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by Coventry at 11:35 AM on November 10, 2016
Panama Jackson at VSB: This Election Failed My Daughter:
On a personal level, I REALLY wanted to see a world where (hopefully) for my daughter’s first sixteen years of life, all she would have seen as President were Obama and Hillary Clinton: a Black man and a woman. Two “boxes” (Black and woman) that historically have had the power to hold her back. And yet, here we were, on the brink of a nation that somehow managed to put two separate minority groups into the most powerful position on the planet. Back to back.posted by palindromic at 11:35 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I was excited for my daughter as I prepared to take my “I Voted” sticker and hand it to her to show her that with my vote, I was voting her for future and helping break that glass ceiling, effectively telling her there was absolutely NOTHING she couldn’t aspire for and as instead of them being open words, there was some truth to them. The truth would be in the pudding.
And then Tuesday happened. I obviously don’t need to relive that for anybody as I’m aware the pain, disappointment, and despair will carry with many of us for a while. I spent most of yesterday disappointed, texting and emailing friends to check in on them to see how they were doing in light of the results, and processing for myself.
I take my daughter to school every morning. On Wednesday, I picked her up from her mother’s house and when I looked at her, I told her I was “I’m sorry.” And how much I really wanted a world where a woman was President for her. And she told me, “I know, daddy. It’s okay.”
My I voted sticker is leering at me.
posted by Sphinx at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm very heartened by Bernie's suggestion of Keith Ellison for the next DNC head. Sounds good to me, let's make it happen.
And a question from a Limey who knows little of US politics: shouldn't Comey's intervention so close to the election day be taken as an attempt to influence the outcome, and render the result suspect?
Yes.
However, there's no established mechanism for dealing with this kind of interference, and no political will on the part of those in power to create one now.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
And a question from a Limey who knows little of US politics: shouldn't Comey's intervention so close to the election day be taken as an attempt to influence the outcome, and render the result suspect?
Yes.
However, there's no established mechanism for dealing with this kind of interference, and no political will on the part of those in power to create one now.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
'What Do I Say?': Stories From the Classroom After Election Day:
Teachers have been dealing with the specter of Donald Trump long before he was actually elected President of the United States. They’ve apologized for assigning the presidential debates as homework, faced frighteningly emboldened bullies, and comforted the terrified children of immigrants. This was imagined, by many, to be a temporary problem.posted by palindromic at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The educators of this country are now dealing with a dizzying range of acute threats that this country’s president-elect poses—for their students, for themselves, for the public education system, for the entire world. In a disaster that’s shocked us down into childlike feelings of rage and fear and impotence, authority is difficult to perform.
“These kids hear things like ‘they’re gonna build a wall’ and ‘they’re gonna kick out all the immigrants’ and ‘Muslims are gonna be banned,’” one teacher told Jezebel. “How do I tell a 7-year-old that’s not true when I don’t know that? I don’t know how to have that conversation.”
She would have won in a landslide.
I'm not so certain. She has the same "flaw" as Hillary, just without the 25 years of relentless "evidence."
posted by stopgap at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
I'm not so certain. She has the same "flaw" as Hillary, just without the 25 years of relentless "evidence."
posted by stopgap at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
I was cleaning up stuff and hurled my 500 pages of state and local ballot information booklets down the recycling chute with such a fit of rage this morning. It felt good.
posted by zachlipton at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 11:37 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
And she told me, “I know, daddy. It’s okay.”
The part of parenting when you see your sweet baby acting strong for you because they want to protect your feelings and keep you from too much worry.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
The part of parenting when you see your sweet baby acting strong for you because they want to protect your feelings and keep you from too much worry.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
I still can't get over the fact Trump was a candidate who boasted about sexual assault and was elected into office. If, as is apparent, the electorate is okay with that, how in the world do you reach them? What kind of campaigning would have swayed them? It's not about MI or WI or PA. It's about an utter repudiation of the social contract that keeps us women and minorities safe.
I suspect the modern Republican Party wouldn't acknowledge a social contract even exists, let alone bother to repudiate it.
posted by Gelatin at 11:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I suspect the modern Republican Party wouldn't acknowledge a social contract even exists, let alone bother to repudiate it.
posted by Gelatin at 11:38 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shouldn't there be a congressional hearing about the impact of foreign influence on our election and how that affects the legitimacy of that election? Goddamn.
posted by ian1977 at 11:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 11:39 AM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Let me say it AGAIN, in case you missed it the first BAJILLION times it was said:
ELIZABETH WARREN DID NOT AND DOES NOT WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
Stop saying she "should have run." Women are DAMNED TIRED of being told what we "should have done."
posted by cooker girl at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [112 favorites]
ELIZABETH WARREN DID NOT AND DOES NOT WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
Stop saying she "should have run." Women are DAMNED TIRED of being told what we "should have done."
posted by cooker girl at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [112 favorites]
You can go ahead and substitute Warren for Bernie in my previous comment.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Shouldn't there be a congressional hearing about the impact of foreign influence on our election and how that affects the legitimacy of that election? Goddamn.
that depends, does it involve allegations about a democrat or a republican?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
that depends, does it involve allegations about a democrat or a republican?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:40 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
'What Do I Say?': Stories From the Classroom After Election Day:
The first thing to say is "don't expect to get away with bad behavior just because the President engages in it. You're better than he is and you will be expected to act accordingly."
posted by ocschwar at 11:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
The first thing to say is "don't expect to get away with bad behavior just because the President engages in it. You're better than he is and you will be expected to act accordingly."
posted by ocschwar at 11:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
this should have been our first woman president. She would have won in a landslide.
Before about 48 hours ago, all I knew about Elizabeth Warren was her involvement in Occupy. That was it, and that's enough to put a lot of voters off.
So I read the Wiki page about her and read about the Pocahontas stuff and... You get that that's the tip of the "controversy" iceberg? I mean seriously, she's a woman in her late sixties, she presumably sends emails, she wants higher taxes etc.
The idea that they wouldn't go after her is nonsensical.
posted by threetwentytwo at 11:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
This might be the thing that makes me button I swear to fucking god.
Also, while we're at it, Michelle Obama does not want to run for office nor does she want to be appointed to the Supreme Court.
Women, SHOCKINGLY, have their OWN agendas and their OWN desires for the directions their lives go.
posted by cooker girl at 11:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
Also, while we're at it, Michelle Obama does not want to run for office nor does she want to be appointed to the Supreme Court.
Women, SHOCKINGLY, have their OWN agendas and their OWN desires for the directions their lives go.
posted by cooker girl at 11:41 AM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
She would have won in a landslide.We're back to putting in fantasy primary candidates who had no interest in running for President? Have we re-litigated Bernie's "inevitable win" according to all those trustworthy polls yet? Here I was thinking that Metafilter would be a relatively safe space to express disappointment and think about how to tackle the future, but apparently this thread is in "Hillary is garbage" mode.
posted by xyzzy at 11:43 AM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
Where is that narrative on display in this thread? I see people saying we should confront bigotry. If they're irredeemable, then why would we bother to confront it?
It's not simply this specific thread, nor MeFi, nor even American liberal discourse on the internet in general. But there definitely seems to be a sort of Othering going on towards these rural traditionalist non-cosmopolitan non-elites. And it's justified in that they contribute towards the oppression of marginalized minorities. But it's unhelpful because their votes matter, too. (And again, if you want to do a reverse-Southern Strategy and go around them by mobilizing different demographics to vote, then commit to that instead.)
It just seems like a lot of times confronting bigotry results in the exasperated, "those people are stupid, those people are hopeless, they're rednecks, they're Nazis" hatred in response to hatred, and shaming tactics, that don't seem to win anyone over, or even to get them to realize what they're doing is wrong. A lot of times, people seem to either to refuse to recognize what they're doing is bigoted, or genuinely not see what's bigoted about it, and in these days they choose to persist in it as a countercultural contrarian sort of way (anti-PC, alt-right).
I'm not saying that there needs to be more time and energy spent talking to these folks. But maybe rethink the strategies, and what narrative is being set?
If it takes more of those resources to bridge the gap to a bigot than it does to get more non-bigots out to the polls next time, why would they prioritize the bigots?
The Rust Belt working class who voted for Obama in past elections but are to be considered bigots because Trump's brash and low-class style appeals to them, for starters, since they live in crucial states that the Democratic candidate needs to win.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's not simply this specific thread, nor MeFi, nor even American liberal discourse on the internet in general. But there definitely seems to be a sort of Othering going on towards these rural traditionalist non-cosmopolitan non-elites. And it's justified in that they contribute towards the oppression of marginalized minorities. But it's unhelpful because their votes matter, too. (And again, if you want to do a reverse-Southern Strategy and go around them by mobilizing different demographics to vote, then commit to that instead.)
It just seems like a lot of times confronting bigotry results in the exasperated, "those people are stupid, those people are hopeless, they're rednecks, they're Nazis" hatred in response to hatred, and shaming tactics, that don't seem to win anyone over, or even to get them to realize what they're doing is wrong. A lot of times, people seem to either to refuse to recognize what they're doing is bigoted, or genuinely not see what's bigoted about it, and in these days they choose to persist in it as a countercultural contrarian sort of way (anti-PC, alt-right).
I'm not saying that there needs to be more time and energy spent talking to these folks. But maybe rethink the strategies, and what narrative is being set?
If it takes more of those resources to bridge the gap to a bigot than it does to get more non-bigots out to the polls next time, why would they prioritize the bigots?
The Rust Belt working class who voted for Obama in past elections but are to be considered bigots because Trump's brash and low-class style appeals to them, for starters, since they live in crucial states that the Democratic candidate needs to win.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:44 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Friends, you can take coulda, shoulda and woulda in one hand and a buck in the other and you can maybe get a donut.
The only direction is ahead.
Also, please don't make a good member button trying to explain how you're right.
posted by Mooski at 11:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
The only direction is ahead.
Also, please don't make a good member button trying to explain how you're right.
posted by Mooski at 11:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
he said actually - all my alt-right friends are old leftists who got burned by the progressives.
There's a certain truth to that - that sometimes the left-on-left's bloody war sends people screaming. But I see it worst in people who used to feel they belonged to the left and then were driven out - they're looking for something to belong to. The most alt-right people I know and was friends with that are making me actively nauseous are a former anarchist and a former socialist, who got burned badly by the anti war movement. Now they post shit about how women shouldn't be allowed to vote. It's like - I wonder if it's possible to go past compassion fatigue into actual compassion burnout where by caring too much you somehow don't care about people ever again?
Really I'm just looking for answers. They're also white Bernie supporting men, so there's that, too, I guess.
posted by corb at 11:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
There's a certain truth to that - that sometimes the left-on-left's bloody war sends people screaming. But I see it worst in people who used to feel they belonged to the left and then were driven out - they're looking for something to belong to. The most alt-right people I know and was friends with that are making me actively nauseous are a former anarchist and a former socialist, who got burned badly by the anti war movement. Now they post shit about how women shouldn't be allowed to vote. It's like - I wonder if it's possible to go past compassion fatigue into actual compassion burnout where by caring too much you somehow don't care about people ever again?
Really I'm just looking for answers. They're also white Bernie supporting men, so there's that, too, I guess.
posted by corb at 11:45 AM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
this should have been our first woman president. She would have won in a landslide.
Technically, Eleanor Roosevelt should have been, or Barbara Jordan, but sure.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Technically, Eleanor Roosevelt should have been, or Barbara Jordan, but sure.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Please keep it cool folks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
xyzzy you echo my sentiments. This shouldawouldacoulda stuff gets us nowhere, just like the blame game. This is the situation now. We have to figure out how to deal with it, not put together a fucking fantasy football team.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
An event like this in Britain would possibly trigger a hasty snap by-election, right?
The US has a rigid calendar for the federal elections, so that remedy is out of the question.
(And to re-mount my hobby horse) The rigid calendar is the biggest flaw in the Constitution. It was needed to coordinate a federal government using ox carts and row boats. It needs to go.
So random question, given that if we're being honest, the general trend of popular opinion was "fuck this election"... how hard would it be for their to be a grassroots effort for that states to propose a constitutional amendment that added a mandatory confidence vote for presidential elections in addition to the candidates, and called for a redo?
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh god on Facebook a friend just mentioned "you do realize Trump will decorate the White House." urk
posted by fraula at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by fraula at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Has anyone come across any site that is mapping all of these incidents?
Cause if not I think I might just try and do that. Big huge USA map of sticky pins.
posted by Jalliah at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
'If I'm the DNC, my take-away if probably going to be "we need to tack more to the center/right next time if we want to win." '
That's the old axis between the parties. We're all scrambling with our hot-takes to figure out the new. There's going to be a realignment, but it can't actually happen with only a fractured Republican party; it has to be both. We saw where the crack was in the GOP this summer. Fault lines among Dems are now becoming visible. (eg maybe those WI, MI, OH Obama 2012 voters who went Trump 2016) New conflicts within the parties will emerge in reaction to actions from the new administration. Many bedfellows will be swapped. Neither party will be recognizable in 8 years - other than maybe the names.
posted by klarck at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's the old axis between the parties. We're all scrambling with our hot-takes to figure out the new. There's going to be a realignment, but it can't actually happen with only a fractured Republican party; it has to be both. We saw where the crack was in the GOP this summer. Fault lines among Dems are now becoming visible. (eg maybe those WI, MI, OH Obama 2012 voters who went Trump 2016) New conflicts within the parties will emerge in reaction to actions from the new administration. Many bedfellows will be swapped. Neither party will be recognizable in 8 years - other than maybe the names.
posted by klarck at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I came to the conclusion that every time someone said Clinton was a "flawed" candidate the flaw was that she was a woman.
yes, in the context of her being magnitudes less flawed than Mr. T.
no, in the context that the Democrats did a prolonged and misguided and ultimately piss poor job of choosing their candidate.
And no, I'm not advocating for Bernie here, or any other man or woman. I'm not advocating for anyone -- just bowing to the notion that Hilary seemed to get the nomination handed to her by the party establishment long before the primaries even began ... mainly because it was "her turn" (and in spite of all the pragmatic reasons why she was dicey choice). All of which would be moot if the popular vote had been one or two or three percentage points different in a handful of states, but it wasn't, Hilary lost, here we are.
Duty now for the future.
posted by philip-random at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
yes, in the context of her being magnitudes less flawed than Mr. T.
no, in the context that the Democrats did a prolonged and misguided and ultimately piss poor job of choosing their candidate.
And no, I'm not advocating for Bernie here, or any other man or woman. I'm not advocating for anyone -- just bowing to the notion that Hilary seemed to get the nomination handed to her by the party establishment long before the primaries even began ... mainly because it was "her turn" (and in spite of all the pragmatic reasons why she was dicey choice). All of which would be moot if the popular vote had been one or two or three percentage points different in a handful of states, but it wasn't, Hilary lost, here we are.
Duty now for the future.
posted by philip-random at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's the EC, voter suppression and gerrymandering that won this election. Nobody wants to deal with that, because it looks impossible to combat, so it's more fun to say "Michelle Obama Woo!" guys, come on. Clinton won the overall vote, but lost thanks to voter suppression. Yes misogyny absolutely, but also, suppression and gerrymandering.
It's a real thing. We have to face it no matter how scary or impossible it is, or just give the fuck up.
(I don't blame people for giving the fuck up at this stage)
We can't win a rigged game. I don't know how to un-rig it, but getting out the vote/waiting for racists to die is clearly not gonna do it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
It's a real thing. We have to face it no matter how scary or impossible it is, or just give the fuck up.
(I don't blame people for giving the fuck up at this stage)
We can't win a rigged game. I don't know how to un-rig it, but getting out the vote/waiting for racists to die is clearly not gonna do it.
posted by emjaybee at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
I say its time to cheat/play dirty. Trump is invalid as president elect because he is a stooge to a foreign power. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
posted by ian1977 at 11:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 11:51 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
who knows... maybe that's already in the works and Obama et al is just playing nice until the December surprise ultimate oppo droppo drops.
posted by ian1977 at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
So random question, given that if we're being honest, the general trend of popular opinion was "fuck this election"... how hard would it be for their to be a grassroots effort for that states to propose a constitutional amendment that added a mandatory confidence vote for presidential elections in addition to the candidates, and called for a redo?
Constitutional amendments are hard. The last one took 200 years to take effect.
But since you're all concerned about the Supreme Court, it might be time to turn your playbooks to that page and give the Court a different constitution to interpret.
posted by ocschwar at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Constitutional amendments are hard. The last one took 200 years to take effect.
But since you're all concerned about the Supreme Court, it might be time to turn your playbooks to that page and give the Court a different constitution to interpret.
posted by ocschwar at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Warren commits to working with Trump to increase economic security of middle-class families.
So let me be 100% clear about this: When President-Elect Trump wants to take on these issues, when his goal is to increase the economic security of middle-class families, then count me in. I will push aside our differences, and I will work to achieve that goal. I offer to work as hard as I can, and to pull in as many people as I can, into this effort. If Trump is ready to go on rebuilding American economic security for millions of families, then I am ready and so are a lot of other people, Democrats and Republicans. But let me also be clear about what rebuilding our economy does not mean. It does not mean handing the keys to our economy over to Wall Street, so they can run it for themselves. Americans want to hold the big banks accountable, and that will not happen if we gut Dodd-Frank and we fire the cops responsible for watching over those banks, like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau...posted by Coventry at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
He also said the election was rigged and he wouldn't respect the results.
You can't win a game you didn't commit to playing.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
You can't win a game you didn't commit to playing.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The dude is a pathological narcissist. One of the symptoms is that he'll say anything to bask in the approval of whomever he's with.
The bad news is, he's surrounded himself with sycophantic racists who want to punish women for having bodies and bring back the mythical 50s that only existed on tv shows.
The silver lining is, he doesn't actually have any policy positions of his own, and he's susceptible to stories of real tragedy. His reaction to the Pulse shooting was, "that's awful! We must stop that!," not the common evangelical reaction of "well, that's pretty bad, but yknow, you live a life of sin..."
He is likely to block oppressive measures brought to him because he's heard a single story of how the measure would be used to hurt people who don't deserve it, if that story is meaningful to him. (Of course, he's also likely to sign such measures after hearing those stories because "My buddy [NAME] has convinced me that that won't happen.")
Our current shred of hope that things won't get as bad as they could, is that the guy they elected is a wildcard who isn't going to cooperate with their fake-50's vision. He's not going to move against it - he likes that vision himself - but he doesn't have any specific ideas on how it could happen. And he's not willing to be known as a rubber-stamp president, so he'll challenge anything he believes is questioning his authority, regardless of who it helps or hurts.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The bad news is, he's surrounded himself with sycophantic racists who want to punish women for having bodies and bring back the mythical 50s that only existed on tv shows.
The silver lining is, he doesn't actually have any policy positions of his own, and he's susceptible to stories of real tragedy. His reaction to the Pulse shooting was, "that's awful! We must stop that!," not the common evangelical reaction of "well, that's pretty bad, but yknow, you live a life of sin..."
He is likely to block oppressive measures brought to him because he's heard a single story of how the measure would be used to hurt people who don't deserve it, if that story is meaningful to him. (Of course, he's also likely to sign such measures after hearing those stories because "My buddy [NAME] has convinced me that that won't happen.")
Our current shred of hope that things won't get as bad as they could, is that the guy they elected is a wildcard who isn't going to cooperate with their fake-50's vision. He's not going to move against it - he likes that vision himself - but he doesn't have any specific ideas on how it could happen. And he's not willing to be known as a rubber-stamp president, so he'll challenge anything he believes is questioning his authority, regardless of who it helps or hurts.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:52 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hillary ran on the most progressive major party platform we've ever seen. She was a fine candidate and she was not relentlessly attacked from the right and left because of her charisma shortcomings. This fantasy replay of the primaries feels really sexist to me.
posted by stopgap at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [59 favorites]
posted by stopgap at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2016 [59 favorites]
Metafilter on Twitter - Mchelly's comment on self-care.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2016
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2016
On Korea reversal:
Was this call after he had his meeting with Obama that he was crowing about being so much longer then it should be? I'd be curious to find out.
I dont think so. The BBC was reporting on it somewhere ~1 am this morning Central time
posted by Golem XIV at 11:55 AM on November 10, 2016
Was this call after he had his meeting with Obama that he was crowing about being so much longer then it should be? I'd be curious to find out.
I dont think so. The BBC was reporting on it somewhere ~1 am this morning Central time
posted by Golem XIV at 11:55 AM on November 10, 2016
the elitists lost - so did the common people; they just don't know it yet
The Economist's examination of the issue, (pre-election) including comments on support from union workers who do not seem to realize Trump is anti-union (this fits in with people not knowing they are voting against their interests, another accusation of the Liberal Elite's condescension towards working class)
The end results by income/class. (The Guardian)
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Economist's examination of the issue, (pre-election) including comments on support from union workers who do not seem to realize Trump is anti-union (this fits in with people not knowing they are voting against their interests, another accusation of the Liberal Elite's condescension towards working class)
The end results by income/class. (The Guardian)
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trumpers were fed a bucket of shit, they will shortly find out, but the damage is already happening with racist incidents and all the civil unrest starting now and yet to come, not to mention all the horrors a couple of months from now when he actually takes office.
The time to protest the Electoral College system was before this election, not after it, but I do hope some good comes from it for future elections... if there are any.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The time to protest the Electoral College system was before this election, not after it, but I do hope some good comes from it for future elections... if there are any.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm clinging to a little hope that reality TV star and person who craves respect and adulation Donald J. Trump will realize that, now that he's won the election by riding hard on the right wing, his best chance to be remembered as a hugely popular and surprisingly effective president is to pivot crazy hard to the center and be way less racist, destructive, and horrible than we all feared.
That's my sole hope too, especially considering how moderate his victory speech was compared to the rest of his campaign.
Granted, that hope isn't large enough to keep this Jew from getting the fuck out of the country while he still can.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's my sole hope too, especially considering how moderate his victory speech was compared to the rest of his campaign.
Granted, that hope isn't large enough to keep this Jew from getting the fuck out of the country while he still can.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:56 AM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hilary seemed to get the nomination handed to her by the party establishment long before the primaries even began ... mainly because it was "her turn"
Forty years of working toward a goal, winning two elections in one of the largest states in the union, serving on the Cabinet, nearly winning one round of primaries, being endorsed by the vast majority of elected Democrats, winning another round of primaries by a larger margin than the guy who beat her last time did, being endorsed by everyone who's ever contested a Democratic primary against her, actually listening to the Democratic electorate and running on the most progressive party platform ever... this is all now boiled down to "mainly because it was 'her turn'".
posted by Etrigan at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [102 favorites]
Forty years of working toward a goal, winning two elections in one of the largest states in the union, serving on the Cabinet, nearly winning one round of primaries, being endorsed by the vast majority of elected Democrats, winning another round of primaries by a larger margin than the guy who beat her last time did, being endorsed by everyone who's ever contested a Democratic primary against her, actually listening to the Democratic electorate and running on the most progressive party platform ever... this is all now boiled down to "mainly because it was 'her turn'".
posted by Etrigan at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2016 [102 favorites]
His reaction to the Pulse shooting was, "that's awful! We must stop that!," not the common evangelical reaction of "well, that's pretty bad, but yknow, you live a life of sin..."
Uh, If I recall, his reaction was literally "I knew this would happen because MUSLIMS."
not quite sympathy for the victims, there
posted by Anonymous at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2016
Uh, If I recall, his reaction was literally "I knew this would happen because MUSLIMS."
not quite sympathy for the victims, there
posted by Anonymous at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2016
Zalzidrax: He also said the election was rigged and he wouldn't respect the results.
Too bad he didn't keep this promise.
posted by clawsoon at 11:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Too bad he didn't keep this promise.
posted by clawsoon at 11:58 AM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
not quite sympathy for the victims, there
He did bring up gay rights at the RNC, to his credit.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:00 PM on November 10, 2016
He did bring up gay rights at the RNC, to his credit.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:00 PM on November 10, 2016
If you are not willing to give up a generation to create true democracy in this country you deserve fascism.
Why we make a list of all the groups you're willing to sacrifice for your ideals. Because that's what you're suggesting, right?
Let's start with Women.
Can't forget Muslims.
Or Latinos.
African Americans.
Gays.
Lesbians.
Bisexuals.
Trans folks.
Back in the closet with all of them.
And basically anyone else who isn't a Wealthy, White, Cis-Het Male.
Seems a little fucking privileged, if you ask me.
posted by zarq at 12:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Why we make a list of all the groups you're willing to sacrifice for your ideals. Because that's what you're suggesting, right?
Let's start with Women.
Can't forget Muslims.
Or Latinos.
African Americans.
Gays.
Lesbians.
Bisexuals.
Trans folks.
Back in the closet with all of them.
And basically anyone else who isn't a Wealthy, White, Cis-Het Male.
Seems a little fucking privileged, if you ask me.
posted by zarq at 12:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
otoh, he was cynically pushing the angle of protecting LGBTQ from "foreign ideology." Didn't say anything about domestic, y'see.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't advocate calling people racists, or racist-supporters, for voting for Trump. I do advocate not spending time with them - not being half-smile friendly at work, not agreeing to go to gatherings where they're present, unfriending them on social media, hanging up when they call. ("Can't talk now; have to go." Not even, "sorry about that.")
What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?
Well, in my case, because racists are also often antisemites, it helps inoculate me against antisemitic violence. Trump ran a misogynistic campaign as well -- I imagine there are many who are threatened by misogynistic violence.
There are a lot of good reasons for not being friends with racists, and, frankly, I'm getting a little tired of people telling me I have to do the work to convince them not to be racist. I have my own work to do against racism, and it doesn't involve me getting threatened on Facebook.
posted by maxsparber at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?
Well, in my case, because racists are also often antisemites, it helps inoculate me against antisemitic violence. Trump ran a misogynistic campaign as well -- I imagine there are many who are threatened by misogynistic violence.
There are a lot of good reasons for not being friends with racists, and, frankly, I'm getting a little tired of people telling me I have to do the work to convince them not to be racist. I have my own work to do against racism, and it doesn't involve me getting threatened on Facebook.
posted by maxsparber at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't advocate calling people racists, or racist-supporters, for voting for Trump. I do advocate not spending time with them...
What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?
1) Not spending time with racists. I consider this a worthwhile goal on its own.
2) Make them aware that their beliefs are not "agree to disagree" differences, like "who's the greatest quarterback of all time" or "wearing white at a second wedding," but "not acceptable in my house" beliefs, like saying that it's okay to rape women because they secretly like it.
Those who have families with a Drunk Racist Uncle Jerry have often tried reaching out to him, finding out the "real pain" that underlies his racism, and they have often found that there isn't any - his pain is that life sucks sometimes, and he doesn't have everything he wants, and he thinks he deserves more, so someone must be getting his fair share... and he's decided that "someone" is either whatever people of color he interacts with most or the ones who are on the news most.
For those whose DRUJ is actually mistaken about the nature of human biology, or actually believes that the Muslim faith says that those who murder Christians will be rewarded in heaven, then maybe they can do outreach. But most DRUJ's know, in their hearts, that people are all just people--they just want it to be someone else's fault that they're not rich, famous, handsome, and adored.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?
1) Not spending time with racists. I consider this a worthwhile goal on its own.
2) Make them aware that their beliefs are not "agree to disagree" differences, like "who's the greatest quarterback of all time" or "wearing white at a second wedding," but "not acceptable in my house" beliefs, like saying that it's okay to rape women because they secretly like it.
Those who have families with a Drunk Racist Uncle Jerry have often tried reaching out to him, finding out the "real pain" that underlies his racism, and they have often found that there isn't any - his pain is that life sucks sometimes, and he doesn't have everything he wants, and he thinks he deserves more, so someone must be getting his fair share... and he's decided that "someone" is either whatever people of color he interacts with most or the ones who are on the news most.
For those whose DRUJ is actually mistaken about the nature of human biology, or actually believes that the Muslim faith says that those who murder Christians will be rewarded in heaven, then maybe they can do outreach. But most DRUJ's know, in their hearts, that people are all just people--they just want it to be someone else's fault that they're not rich, famous, handsome, and adored.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
We all know Clinton would have done better if she were a man. With the exact same record, she would have been fine and probably won. Maybe even beaten Obama in 2008. Sexism is real and I would like people to stop trying to find a "logical" reason why the media and lots of other folks cared more about her emails than about Trump's bottomless swamp of disqualifying factors.
There is nothing she could have done better to run, except be a dude. People don't trust women the way they trust men. Even lots of liberal/not-crazy people.
As a woman I have to accept this fact about my country, and I will, but I don't need anyone finger-wagging about her "likeability" ever again.
posted by emjaybee at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [73 favorites]
There is nothing she could have done better to run, except be a dude. People don't trust women the way they trust men. Even lots of liberal/not-crazy people.
As a woman I have to accept this fact about my country, and I will, but I don't need anyone finger-wagging about her "likeability" ever again.
posted by emjaybee at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [73 favorites]
His first tweet congratulated himself "for being right about radical Islamic terrorism"
His subsequent remarks were similarly fucked up.
posted by Anonymous at 12:04 PM on November 10, 2016
His subsequent remarks were similarly fucked up.
posted by Anonymous at 12:04 PM on November 10, 2016
There is nothing she could have done better to run, except be a dude. People don't trust women the way they trust men. Even lots of liberal/not-crazy people.
She won the popular vote. Literally more than half the country, albeit by a small margin, trusted her. The electoral college system fucked this election.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
She won the popular vote. Literally more than half the country, albeit by a small margin, trusted her. The electoral college system fucked this election.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I've started a boycott list on my profile. Feel free to memail me to add (with cite).
posted by Sophie1 at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm torn between sincere appreciation for Bernie Sanders as a decent human being who went out of his way to do everything right and is already sticking his neck out to speak truth to power again... and the urge to recoil violently from anything associated with him because I cannot fucking abide another Bernie Bro telling me "It's all Hillary's fault! We shoulda had Bernie instead of that crook!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
So I read the Wiki page about her and read about the Pocahontas stuff and... You get that that's the tip of the "controversy" iceberg? I mean seriously, she's a woman in her late sixties, she presumably sends emails, she wants higher taxes etc.
Every time i've ever heard her speak I want to run through a wall for her. Not since Wellstone have I felt that way. She's a once in a lifetime politician; you just don't get people with that combination of eloquence and passion putting themselves out there in the political spectrum. The Democrats should dump that Wall Street hack Schumer and appoint her the minority leader, we need a fighter now, not a suck up.
posted by any major dude at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Every time i've ever heard her speak I want to run through a wall for her. Not since Wellstone have I felt that way. She's a once in a lifetime politician; you just don't get people with that combination of eloquence and passion putting themselves out there in the political spectrum. The Democrats should dump that Wall Street hack Schumer and appoint her the minority leader, we need a fighter now, not a suck up.
posted by any major dude at 12:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Trump's misogyny and sexism has been so, so scary to watch. Not just the “grab them in the pussy” video, but also things that were apparently unremarkable like "a women's most important quality is her beauty". I really did think that slowly these things were improving and that hope has been totally crushed and replaced with so much fear and sadness.
And the media where I live (not in the US) have not picked up on the misogyny at all. They’ll mention his “grab them in the pussy” video as “vulgar”, but I don’t get the impression that the misogyny is handled with any real concern. Because this is just how the world is, apparently.
People around me don’t understand why I’m so sad about something that happened in another country, but this doesn’t seem like an isolated American event. Not just because Trump will get the nuclear codes (!!!) and doesn’t believe in global warming (?!?!) but also the fact that so many people voted this men into power, and that so many people who didn't vote for him do diminish the extent of how awful this is and tell me I shouldn't be so sensitive. I’m already a bit of a misanthrope but still somewhere thought that that was just my brain being overly negative and now this. I don’t know how I will get over this.
posted by blub at 12:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
And the media where I live (not in the US) have not picked up on the misogyny at all. They’ll mention his “grab them in the pussy” video as “vulgar”, but I don’t get the impression that the misogyny is handled with any real concern. Because this is just how the world is, apparently.
People around me don’t understand why I’m so sad about something that happened in another country, but this doesn’t seem like an isolated American event. Not just because Trump will get the nuclear codes (!!!) and doesn’t believe in global warming (?!?!) but also the fact that so many people voted this men into power, and that so many people who didn't vote for him do diminish the extent of how awful this is and tell me I shouldn't be so sensitive. I’m already a bit of a misanthrope but still somewhere thought that that was just my brain being overly negative and now this. I don’t know how I will get over this.
posted by blub at 12:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Let's start with Women.
Can't forget Muslims.
Or Latinos.
African Americans.
Gays.
Lesbians.
Bisexuals.
Trans folks.
Back in the closet with all of them.
And basically anyone else who isn't a Wealthy, White, Cis-Het Male.
A healthy, wealthy, white cis-het male, please.
We need to include the disabled in those who are at risk.
posted by mochapickle at 12:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Can't forget Muslims.
Or Latinos.
African Americans.
Gays.
Lesbians.
Bisexuals.
Trans folks.
Back in the closet with all of them.
And basically anyone else who isn't a Wealthy, White, Cis-Het Male.
A healthy, wealthy, white cis-het male, please.
We need to include the disabled in those who are at risk.
posted by mochapickle at 12:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Are you a white guy? Why don't you spend some time with Uncle Jerry, actively listen to his concerns, make him feel closer to you, and then gently press him on the issue so that he'll hopefully take a less extreme stance? If there's any chance that he can leave the conversation with a less extreme viewpoint, isn't that 1) a win and 2) something you, as a white guy, are exceptionally well-positioned to attempt at a minimum of personal cost?
I simply said call him on it, but, sure, that can take whatever form works. If Jerry's an asshole, then compassion isn't going to go too far. If you have had a good relationship generally with him, sure, talk it out, but don't let it just slide. If you think other members of your family might support you, then great, all the better. If you're alone in believing what he says is wrong, then maybe leaving them behind works best. No way to cover every eventuality here other than call it out in some form for not being acceptable, otherwise it continues to be so and you are abetting that.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I simply said call him on it, but, sure, that can take whatever form works. If Jerry's an asshole, then compassion isn't going to go too far. If you have had a good relationship generally with him, sure, talk it out, but don't let it just slide. If you think other members of your family might support you, then great, all the better. If you're alone in believing what he says is wrong, then maybe leaving them behind works best. No way to cover every eventuality here other than call it out in some form for not being acceptable, otherwise it continues to be so and you are abetting that.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
We need to include the disabled in those who are at risk.
Or those who may be disabled or infirm at some point in the future...which is virtually all of us really.
posted by ian1977 at 12:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Bernie Bro telling me "It's all Hillary's fault! We shoulda had Bernie instead of that crook!"
Instead of the Democratic leadership recoiling and demonizing Bernie for his appeal to the "Bernie Bros" they should have been taking it as a harbinger. This election was determined by angry white men.
posted by any major dude at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Instead of the Democratic leadership recoiling and demonizing Bernie for his appeal to the "Bernie Bros" they should have been taking it as a harbinger. This election was determined by angry white men.
posted by any major dude at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Those who have families with a Drunk Racist Uncle Jerry have often tried reaching out to him, finding out the "real pain" that underlies his racism, and they have often found that there isn't any - his pain is that life sucks sometimes, and he doesn't have everything he wants, and he thinks he deserves more, so someone must be getting his fair share... and he's decided that "someone" is either whatever people of color he interacts with most or the ones who are on the news most
My mum is like that. She grew up in Communist-occupied Poland, and seems to have reinvented the ideology of Ayn Rand from first principles; anything to the left of about Rupert Murdoch is only quantitatively different from Bolshevik tyranny and thus evil and to be waged war against until it is annihilated. She lives in Australia, so she has fallen in with the local far right demagogues; she has been posting to Facebook praising Andrew Bolt and, more recently, Milo Yiannopoulos, and denouncing the Greens as actual Communists.
The bitter irony is that the tyrannical socialist regime she is quite right to loathe was as much an expression of the Russian Byzantine autocratic culture of power as of Marxism, and more so than of the post-Enlightenment Left, and now the same Russian autocratic culture has reemerged in Trump via Putin. This is lost on her, as she regards subtle arguments as leftist disingenuity.
I am now filtering most of my Facebook posts to a group she can't see. I am dreading the next time I will be in Melbourne, as there will be strong pressure for me (who doesn't own a car in Australia) to stay with her (a few hours out of Melbourne). I will probably say no, but the backlash will be vicious.
(I'm half thinking that I should perhaps go for the nuclear option and just post that selfie of me handing out Greens how-to-vote cards at Australia House to Facebook and be done with it; it's not like I need to inherit half of her house when she eventually passes away...)
posted by acb at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
My mum is like that. She grew up in Communist-occupied Poland, and seems to have reinvented the ideology of Ayn Rand from first principles; anything to the left of about Rupert Murdoch is only quantitatively different from Bolshevik tyranny and thus evil and to be waged war against until it is annihilated. She lives in Australia, so she has fallen in with the local far right demagogues; she has been posting to Facebook praising Andrew Bolt and, more recently, Milo Yiannopoulos, and denouncing the Greens as actual Communists.
The bitter irony is that the tyrannical socialist regime she is quite right to loathe was as much an expression of the Russian Byzantine autocratic culture of power as of Marxism, and more so than of the post-Enlightenment Left, and now the same Russian autocratic culture has reemerged in Trump via Putin. This is lost on her, as she regards subtle arguments as leftist disingenuity.
I am now filtering most of my Facebook posts to a group she can't see. I am dreading the next time I will be in Melbourne, as there will be strong pressure for me (who doesn't own a car in Australia) to stay with her (a few hours out of Melbourne). I will probably say no, but the backlash will be vicious.
(I'm half thinking that I should perhaps go for the nuclear option and just post that selfie of me handing out Greens how-to-vote cards at Australia House to Facebook and be done with it; it's not like I need to inherit half of her house when she eventually passes away...)
posted by acb at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
What makes him so scary is that I don't think he's ever lying. Or at least he doesn't believe he is. He says whatever comes into his head at the time without even thinking about it. He can't lie, because he doesn't really believe anything. He just says stuff, and keeps saying stuff and more stuff and more stuff, without considering content or implications.
posted by Gelatin at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.Harry Frankfurt, "On Bullshit" (PDF)
posted by Gelatin at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Question: Been seeing posts about the electoral college and a movement to get electors to not vote for Donald. I know it won't happen.
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
posted by Jalliah at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016
There was an opportunity this year to bury the Republicans and Democrats for good. Bernie and Bloomberg could have ran their own independent campaigns and Trump/Cinton would have been relegated to 3rd and 4th choices. Both were cowed by the Democratic party and the Clintons. These two parties are done, neither represents the true will of the people anymore. Democrats are beholden to big finance, Republicans big business. Trump won because he bashed the Republican party. Fuck all of you who demonized Ralph Nader in the years 2000, it's kept every viable 3rd choice away from running since. If you are not willing to give up a generation to create true democracy in this country you deserve fascism.
Please note that when people tell you that you are not even wrong, that is not a fancy and clever way of declaring that you are right.
posted by delfin at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Please note that when people tell you that you are not even wrong, that is not a fancy and clever way of declaring that you are right.
posted by delfin at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
being endorsed by everyone who's ever contested a Democratic primary against her, actually listening to the Democratic electorate and running on the most progressive party platform ever... this is all now boiled down to "mainly because it was 'her turn'".
to be clear -- I never for a moment hoped for anyone other than Hilary once primary season was underway (indeed, much as I agree with almost everything I've ever heard from Bernie Sanders, his arrival on the scene as a genuine player sent an instant chill through me -- this was the party dividing). When I'm questioning Hilary's candidacy, I'm questioning what happened before 2016.
posted by philip-random at 12:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
to be clear -- I never for a moment hoped for anyone other than Hilary once primary season was underway (indeed, much as I agree with almost everything I've ever heard from Bernie Sanders, his arrival on the scene as a genuine player sent an instant chill through me -- this was the party dividing). When I'm questioning Hilary's candidacy, I'm questioning what happened before 2016.
posted by philip-random at 12:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
What exactly is this supposed to accomplish?
1) Not spending time with racists. I consider this a worthwhile goal on its own.
2) Make them aware that their beliefs are not "agree to disagree" differences, like "who's the greatest quarterback of all time" or "wearing white at a second wedding," but "not acceptable in my house" beliefs, like saying that it's okay to rape women because they secretly like it.
Shunning is a powerful social tool, as long as others in the social circle know who is being shunned and why.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
1) Not spending time with racists. I consider this a worthwhile goal on its own.
2) Make them aware that their beliefs are not "agree to disagree" differences, like "who's the greatest quarterback of all time" or "wearing white at a second wedding," but "not acceptable in my house" beliefs, like saying that it's okay to rape women because they secretly like it.
Shunning is a powerful social tool, as long as others in the social circle know who is being shunned and why.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Trump's own words when he wrongly thought Romney had won the popular vote in 2012.
posted by blub at 12:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by blub at 12:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Those who have families with a Drunk Racist Uncle Jerry have often tried reaching out to him, finding out the "real pain" that underlies his racism, and they have often found that there isn't any - his pain is that life sucks sometimes, and he doesn't have everything he wants, and he thinks he deserves more, so someone must be getting his fair share... and he's decided that "someone" is either whatever people of color he interacts with most or the ones who are on the news most.I've persuaded relatives that their views are racist, harmful, and ignore the privilege they enjoy. It takes hours of calmly pointing how the issues they raise look from the perspective of the targets of their racism, in one-to-one conversations so they don't feel publically attacked. Maybe they just get sick of my behavior and stop talking about it around me, and of course every family and every relationship is different, but from my perspective it seems effective.
posted by Coventry at 12:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This election was determined by angry white men.
and yet Trump got more than fifty percent of the white woman vote.
posted by philip-random at 12:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
and yet Trump got more than fifty percent of the white woman vote.
posted by philip-random at 12:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
ELIZABETH WARREN DID NOT AND DOES NOT WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
She's also going to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effective right where she is, in the Senate, where she can be a vote against damaging issues and maybe be the sole vote that keeps things from being a two-thirds majority.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
She's also going to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effective right where she is, in the Senate, where she can be a vote against damaging issues and maybe be the sole vote that keeps things from being a two-thirds majority.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
I shouldn't have said white evangelicals in my comment above - because in fact one of the more surprising polling errors was that 5-7% of black people voted for Trump, when that number was closer to 0 in nearly all the crosstabs I remember seeing throughout the race.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that, but perhaps this should have been a sign that something was wrong with the polling. It's never 0% and never 100% for a major party candidate, among any demographic group.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hindsight 20/20 and all that, but perhaps this should have been a sign that something was wrong with the polling. It's never 0% and never 100% for a major party candidate, among any demographic group.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well now I'm back to anger and considering going to Thanksgiving and asking my Trump-voting uncle "So, how many women have you grabbed by the pussy?" I mean, the President can say it, he voted for him, why can't I say it too? Heck I can also say "bomb the shit out of them" at the table now, right?
Don't know if I have the intestinal fortitude for it. I would almost certainly be asked to leave immediately.
But it made me giggle to think about.
posted by emjaybee at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Don't know if I have the intestinal fortitude for it. I would almost certainly be asked to leave immediately.
But it made me giggle to think about.
posted by emjaybee at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Look a Democratic Party that makes appealing to whites its main platform is going to go racist. That was the point of the Southern Strategy.
"Appease the white men" is a real goal here? Day 2, folks.
posted by zutalors! at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
"Appease the white men" is a real goal here? Day 2, folks.
posted by zutalors! at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Question: Been seeing posts about the electoral college and a movement to get electors to not vote for Donald. I know it won't happen.
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
The Electoral College has never not elected someone with a majority of electors, no. There have been hijinks in the House when there was no EC majority (so the person with a plurality but not a majority of electoral votes didn't win), and electors have changed their votes (John Hospers, the first Libertarian presidential candidate, got one electoral vote in 1972 that should have gone to Nixon).
But the EC has never switched the result of an election.
posted by Etrigan at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
The Electoral College has never not elected someone with a majority of electors, no. There have been hijinks in the House when there was no EC majority (so the person with a plurality but not a majority of electoral votes didn't win), and electors have changed their votes (John Hospers, the first Libertarian presidential candidate, got one electoral vote in 1972 that should have gone to Nixon).
But the EC has never switched the result of an election.
posted by Etrigan at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
> 1) Not spending time with racists. I consider this a worthwhile goal on its own.
It's a bit of a luxury, though, innit? It reminds me a lot of that game Hot Potato.
To you it's a luxury. To others, it may be self-preservation because they have no more emotional labor left to give.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's a bit of a luxury, though, innit? It reminds me a lot of that game Hot Potato.
To you it's a luxury. To others, it may be self-preservation because they have no more emotional labor left to give.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
Often enough that there is a term of art for it: Faithless elector.
posted by maxsparber at 12:21 PM on November 10, 2016
Often enough that there is a term of art for it: Faithless elector.
posted by maxsparber at 12:21 PM on November 10, 2016
I would rather see them infiltrate the Democratic party in large numbers, put their people on Dem tickets at every level of government, take over party nominating committees and executive positions, and pretty much rewire and redefine the DNC from the inside.
The appointment of Ellison to chairmanship of the DNC is one way to start the transformation of the Democratic Party.
This.
The one political email list I didn't unsubscribe from after the first contact (and actually gave a few of my meager bucks to) was boldprogressives.org, a group that supported some Democratic candidates that won among all the losses.
To quote their post-election email, (editing out the inevitable "so please send more money"):
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
The appointment of Ellison to chairmanship of the DNC is one way to start the transformation of the Democratic Party.
This.
The one political email list I didn't unsubscribe from after the first contact (and actually gave a few of my meager bucks to) was boldprogressives.org, a group that supported some Democratic candidates that won among all the losses.
To quote their post-election email, (editing out the inevitable "so please send more money"):
This is a stunning, scary, sad time for America.It looks like the elected Democrats (who are left) are more Progressive and less White Male on balance, which is a promising sign for the party's future.
In January, we will live in a world where Donald Trump is President, and right-wing majorities control both the Senate and the House. It hurts to think about it.
In the coming days, many people will be scrambling to respond (and deciding whether or not to move to Canada.) There are a lot of unknowns. But here are some truths we know now.
First, the Democratic Party must go through a reckoning. Donald Trump won the Rust Belt by stoking the economic and social anxiety that so many people feel in their lives. People are fed up with bad wages, too much debt, and child care costs through the roof. They are tired of watching their jobs disappear because of bad trade deals. They know that something is wrong when a corporation can break laws and destroy livelihoods and get away with it.
And Donald Trump spoke to that. Some of his TV ads could have been run by Bernie Sanders -- bashing the "political establishment" that "brought about the destruction of our factories and jobs."
Democrats must follow the lead of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, going beyond issue positions and offering a systemic critique of the rigged economy. Democrats must start fighting for working families with an authentic understanding of how we got here -- and a willingness to take on Wall Street and corporate donors to get us out.
It's time for new leadership of the Democratic Party -- younger, more diverse, and more ideological -- that is hungry to do things differently, like leading a movement instead of dragging people to the polls. Democrats will lose, over and over, until they have a willingness to take on corporate power in a very real and authentic way.
Second, we have to resist. We have to fight Donald Trump's anti-worker, anti-immigrant, racist, sexist agenda every step of the way. We love our country too much. We can't undo the progress that we've made. We've come too far and fought too long for what we have.
Third, some good news. I know it's hard to see in these dark times, but there is some light.
We built long-term power by electing some bold progressives. Jamie Raskin (MD-08), Pramila Jayapal (WA-07), and Nanette Diaz Barragán (CA-40) are all great organizers that we need in Congress now more than ever. We also helped Carol Shea-Porter (NH-01) and Ruben Kihuen (NV-04) defeat incumbent Republicans! And we helped elect three new senators, Tammy Duckworth (IL), Maggie Hassan (NH) and Catherine Cortez Masto (NV).
In the coming days, weeks and months, we'll be launching a major new progressive messaging program (more soon!) and expanding our program to build power from the ground up -- one school board race at a time.
And so we fight back.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
otoh, he was cynically pushing the angle of protecting LGBTQ from "foreign ideology." Didn't say anything about domestic, y'see.
This is a big alt-right idea- that because they only want to jail and break up and discriminate against QUILTBAG people, rather than murdering them like (they assume) all Muslims want to, the only real pro-QUILTBAG people are the white racists who want to murder every Muslim.
They're generally really upset and baffled that nobody agrees.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is a big alt-right idea- that because they only want to jail and break up and discriminate against QUILTBAG people, rather than murdering them like (they assume) all Muslims want to, the only real pro-QUILTBAG people are the white racists who want to murder every Muslim.
They're generally really upset and baffled that nobody agrees.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
It's perfectly legal, but I think the EC flipping the election to Clinton would cause something akin to a civil war. Maybe for the better, who knows. There's a petition going around to make this happen. I'm mulling over signing it, and my wife wants to, but I genuinely believe it would put our lives in danger once it most likely fails. Maybe that's hysterical, I dunno (feeling kind of hysterical!).
posted by dis_integration at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's perfectly legal, but I think the EC flipping the election to Clinton would cause something akin to a civil war. Maybe for the better, who knows. There's a petition going around to make this happen. I'm mulling over signing it, and my wife wants to, but I genuinely believe it would put our lives in danger once it most likely fails. Maybe that's hysterical, I dunno (feeling kind of hysterical!).
posted by dis_integration at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, not perfectly legal. There would be some fines for the faithless electors. But it's constitutional.
posted by dis_integration at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dis_integration at 12:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
>> If it takes more of those resources to bridge the gap to a bigot than it does to get more non-bigots out to the polls next time, why would they prioritize the bigots?
> The Rust Belt working class who voted for Obama in past elections but are to be considered bigots because Trump's brash and low-class style appeals to them, for starters, since they live in crucial states that the Democratic candidate needs to win.
On what basis do you claim that they "need to win" the Rust Belt states?
WI, MI, and OH are not the only states Hillary lost by a close margin with (a) double-digit EVs and (b) a history of voting with Democrats under the Obama coalition. FL, and NC fit this description as well. Together, WI, MI, and OH are 44 EVs. Together, NC and FL are... 44 EVs. Every bit of voter outreach in those states is as valuable as the same amount of outreach in the midwest, except the message is more consistent with progressive goals, and not in opposition to it when it comes to taxation, income support, and the safety net in general, which the white midwestern voters say they don't want as they're cashing the checks.
The elephant in the room is my own beloved home state, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 20 EVs, sort of rust belt, but mostly not. The thing is, and I believe a Trump presidency will illuminate this for the Trumpists here, the rust belt jobs are not coming back. No amount of reversal of NAFTA and the TPP is going to improve the lives of people in Alliquippa, Titusville, or Connellsville. PA was very gettable this year, and it will be even more gettable after these people recognize they bought a bill of goods from a two-but huckster.
I've asked this question several times and still don't have an answer. Why is it an article of faith among so many that the Rust Belt voters are the only path to electoral success?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
> The Rust Belt working class who voted for Obama in past elections but are to be considered bigots because Trump's brash and low-class style appeals to them, for starters, since they live in crucial states that the Democratic candidate needs to win.
On what basis do you claim that they "need to win" the Rust Belt states?
WI, MI, and OH are not the only states Hillary lost by a close margin with (a) double-digit EVs and (b) a history of voting with Democrats under the Obama coalition. FL, and NC fit this description as well. Together, WI, MI, and OH are 44 EVs. Together, NC and FL are... 44 EVs. Every bit of voter outreach in those states is as valuable as the same amount of outreach in the midwest, except the message is more consistent with progressive goals, and not in opposition to it when it comes to taxation, income support, and the safety net in general, which the white midwestern voters say they don't want as they're cashing the checks.
The elephant in the room is my own beloved home state, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 20 EVs, sort of rust belt, but mostly not. The thing is, and I believe a Trump presidency will illuminate this for the Trumpists here, the rust belt jobs are not coming back. No amount of reversal of NAFTA and the TPP is going to improve the lives of people in Alliquippa, Titusville, or Connellsville. PA was very gettable this year, and it will be even more gettable after these people recognize they bought a bill of goods from a two-but huckster.
I've asked this question several times and still don't have an answer. Why is it an article of faith among so many that the Rust Belt voters are the only path to electoral success?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
It wasn't an election. It was simply a referendum on dark skin. Shameful.
posted by davebush at 12:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by davebush at 12:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's perfectly legal, but I think the EC flipping the election to Clinton would cause something akin to a civil war. Maybe for the better, who knows. There's a petition going around to make this happen. I'm mulling over signing it, and my wife wants to, but I genuinely believe it would put our lives in danger once it most likely fails. Maybe that's hysterical, I dunno (feeling kind of hysterical!).
posted by dis_integ
I think our lives are at risk any way we spin it at this point. Pick your poison.
posted by ian1977 at 12:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dis_integ
I think our lives are at risk any way we spin it at this point. Pick your poison.
posted by ian1977 at 12:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
@CarlBeijer posted a chilling excerpt from a disturbingly prescient lecture from 2010.
Climate change, refugees, and the disturbing truth about the feasibility of a wall.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Climate change, refugees, and the disturbing truth about the feasibility of a wall.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
What would happen if it did though? Has that ever happened?
The delegates to the EC are at best Republican Party lifetime activists and at worst Trump Toadies. I could maybe see a few secret #nevertrump delegates sneaking in, and if the vote was like 272-266 maybe 3 of them would switch to throw it to the house so we could have President Ryan. But no way in hell 30 of them decide to vote for Clinton.
posted by Glibpaxman at 12:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The delegates to the EC are at best Republican Party lifetime activists and at worst Trump Toadies. I could maybe see a few secret #nevertrump delegates sneaking in, and if the vote was like 272-266 maybe 3 of them would switch to throw it to the house so we could have President Ryan. But no way in hell 30 of them decide to vote for Clinton.
posted by Glibpaxman at 12:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's perfectly legal, but I think the EC flipping the election to Clinton would cause something akin to a civil war.
Disclaimer: I know it's not gonna happen.
One of the interesting things I hear from many of my Florida co-residents is that they buy guns because militia; they must be ready to take arms against blah blah blah, etc.
They never seem to have an answer to what their AK-47 is going to do to a drone, or a tank, or even a halfway decently trained National Guard unit.
No, there would be no civil war; I honestly don't believe one is possible in the way it was in 1861.
Now ask me if I think any of my Florida brethren would take their AK-47s to a gay bar.
posted by Mooski at 12:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Disclaimer: I know it's not gonna happen.
One of the interesting things I hear from many of my Florida co-residents is that they buy guns because militia; they must be ready to take arms against blah blah blah, etc.
They never seem to have an answer to what their AK-47 is going to do to a drone, or a tank, or even a halfway decently trained National Guard unit.
No, there would be no civil war; I honestly don't believe one is possible in the way it was in 1861.
Now ask me if I think any of my Florida brethren would take their AK-47s to a gay bar.
posted by Mooski at 12:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not only would flipping the EC amount to a coup, I simply can't see Hillary Clinton agreeing to become the president that way.
posted by theodolite at 12:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 12:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Australian poet Daniel Viles read aloud this poem on Australian public radio. It's constructed entirely of Trump quotes as rhyming couplets. I would type it out here but it'd be a wall of Trumpisms on the blue and no-one wants that. Poem starts at 1:45.
posted by adept256 at 12:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 12:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
@CarlBeijer posted a chilling excerpt from a disturbingly prescient lecture from 2010.
Climate change, refugees, and the disturbing truth about the feasibility of a wall.
He seems to think that difference between a 100-mile wall in a densely populated area and a 2000-mile wall, much of which goes through desert, is a handwaveable matter of irrelevant technical details.
I rather hope the 2017 administration kicks off with a huge project to build a wall; it would nicely distract them from the other horrific things that were promised in the campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Climate change, refugees, and the disturbing truth about the feasibility of a wall.
He seems to think that difference between a 100-mile wall in a densely populated area and a 2000-mile wall, much of which goes through desert, is a handwaveable matter of irrelevant technical details.
I rather hope the 2017 administration kicks off with a huge project to build a wall; it would nicely distract them from the other horrific things that were promised in the campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, the Dems totally should have run Beyonce instead of Clinton, everybody loves her, right? Or what about the guy from Hamilton? Totally would have won.
posted by bongo_x at 12:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 12:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Would Sanders Have Beaten Trump? Maybe Colorado Has The Answer
I always assumed that Republicans would just go after Sanders as a really big spender who believes in really big government, and wants to tax Joe and Jane Six-Pack to pay for that. I think his proposals would have been portrayed as unworkable and budget-busting.posted by tonycpsu at 12:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
Would that have damaged him enough for Trump to win? I don't know -- but please note that a referendum in Colorado calling for single-payer health care just lost 80%-20%. Colorado is a state Clinton won, so some liberals as well as conservatives presumably voted no on single payer. [...]
That would have been the problem with Bernie's proposals in a general election campaign: The costs would have been measured, even some estimates made in good faith would have been worrying, Republicans and vested interests would have pounced on those cost estimates, and he'd have been on the defensive. I'm not saying all that would have doomed him. I just don't know. But his high approval ratings would have taken a hit.
So we can't look at the positive Sanders numbers in the spring and use that to assess how he'd have done in the fall. We'll just never know.
No, there would be no civil war; I honestly don't believe one is possible in the way it was in 1861.
Asymmetric warfare is the new hotness. It's very difficult to defeat guerrilla armies embedded seamlessly with a civilian populations. It's not a question of firepower, and guerrilla movements tend to be accepting of higher rates of casualties than a standing army would be. And aggressive tactics turn the people against the flag-bearing military. Civil wars could happen. Incidentally if one broke out it's plausible that Russia would help arm the insurgents with some heftier badness. Don't think it can't happen here. It can happen here. I'm all out of illusions about what can and can't happen here now.
posted by dis_integration at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Asymmetric warfare is the new hotness. It's very difficult to defeat guerrilla armies embedded seamlessly with a civilian populations. It's not a question of firepower, and guerrilla movements tend to be accepting of higher rates of casualties than a standing army would be. And aggressive tactics turn the people against the flag-bearing military. Civil wars could happen. Incidentally if one broke out it's plausible that Russia would help arm the insurgents with some heftier badness. Don't think it can't happen here. It can happen here. I'm all out of illusions about what can and can't happen here now.
posted by dis_integration at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
One of the interesting things I hear from many of my Florida co-residents is that they buy guns because militia; they must be ready to take arms against blah blah blah, etc.
They never seem to have an answer to what their AK-47 is going to do to a drone, or a tank, or even a halfway decently trained National Guard unit.
The 21st Century has shown us that a sufficiently motivated group of people with small arms and easily manufactured explosives can at least engage in a long standoff with the most powerful military in the history of the world, if the military and the polity behind it don't have the same level of motivation.
posted by Etrigan at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
They never seem to have an answer to what their AK-47 is going to do to a drone, or a tank, or even a halfway decently trained National Guard unit.
The 21st Century has shown us that a sufficiently motivated group of people with small arms and easily manufactured explosives can at least engage in a long standoff with the most powerful military in the history of the world, if the military and the polity behind it don't have the same level of motivation.
posted by Etrigan at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I rather hope the 2017 administration kicks off with a huge project to build a wall
...and don't you just know that the tunnels under it would be made by some of the same contractors who built it?
o god would I cackle my narrow ass off
posted by Mooski at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
...and don't you just know that the tunnels under it would be made by some of the same contractors who built it?
o god would I cackle my narrow ass off
posted by Mooski at 12:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think it's pretty telling that the responses to my comment focused on this part:
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
While ignoring this part:
Pick a candidate that gets the base fired up
You have to have both. We were told after the primary that the second part didn't matter, or because $REASONS it didn't matter because misogynists wouldn't vote HRC, etc. But I think those turnout numbers tell the story: the base was not excited. Yes, suppression mattered, but good luck getting the VRA re-established in the new climate. That won't happen. So get better candidates.
posted by turntraitor at 12:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Put together a platform that addresses the real, material circumstances of a wide swath of the electorate, and make that plan the centerpiece of your run.
While ignoring this part:
Pick a candidate that gets the base fired up
You have to have both. We were told after the primary that the second part didn't matter, or because $REASONS it didn't matter because misogynists wouldn't vote HRC, etc. But I think those turnout numbers tell the story: the base was not excited. Yes, suppression mattered, but good luck getting the VRA re-established in the new climate. That won't happen. So get better candidates.
posted by turntraitor at 12:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I just initiated a conversation with my mother about the bigoted comments one of my family members has made. I didn't choose the best time to initiate this, and I don't know if said comments actually reflect said family member's beliefs or are intended to troll. Granted, I know that when someone makes a racist statement, it's racist no matter the intention, but I'm worried my mom is going to see me as being a drama queen or some other bullshit because I brought up this problem at all.
I feel like I just outsourced a ton of emotional labor to someone who already has a lot on her plate.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I feel like I just outsourced a ton of emotional labor to someone who already has a lot on her plate.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
please note that a referendum in Colorado calling for single-payer health care just lost 80%-20%. Colorado is a state Clinton won, so some liberals as well as conservatives presumably voted no on single payer.It was irresponsible to put such a measure up without providing the budget for it. Sanders was not making that mistake. He had a very clear revenue plan.
posted by Coventry at 12:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Would that have damaged him enough for Trump to win? I don't know -- but please note that a referendum in Colorado calling for single-payer health care just lost 80%-20%. Colorado is a state Clinton won, so some liberals as well as conservatives presumably voted no on single payer. [...]
Look, I'm a progressive voter and all for single-payer health care but the Colorado single-payer health care referendum was a mess as written. It just wasn't comprehensive and clear, and there were a lot of questions unanswered as to the administration of it. Even my super-progressive newspaper couldn't endorse it.
The Colorado health care vote has zero to do with Bernie.
posted by mochapickle at 12:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Look, I'm a progressive voter and all for single-payer health care but the Colorado single-payer health care referendum was a mess as written. It just wasn't comprehensive and clear, and there were a lot of questions unanswered as to the administration of it. Even my super-progressive newspaper couldn't endorse it.
The Colorado health care vote has zero to do with Bernie.
posted by mochapickle at 12:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Colorado single-payer was opposed by many liberals because it excluded abortion coverage. I'm sure that was part of the problem.
posted by emjaybee at 12:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 12:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It was irresponsible to put such a measure up without providing the budget for it. Sanders was not making that mistake. He had a very clear revenue plan.
If you think that defense would have worked to reassure voters, do a Google News search for "Congressional Budget Office" between 2008 and 2010. The "tax and spend" liberal image is still very much in the minds of these Reagan Democrat voters that we're supposed to be reaching -- they hear claims of an exploding deficit and the fact-checking part of the brain shuts down.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you think that defense would have worked to reassure voters, do a Google News search for "Congressional Budget Office" between 2008 and 2010. The "tax and spend" liberal image is still very much in the minds of these Reagan Democrat voters that we're supposed to be reaching -- they hear claims of an exploding deficit and the fact-checking part of the brain shuts down.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
He seems to think that difference between a 100-mile wall in a densely populated area and a 2000-mile wall, much of which goes through desert, is a handwaveable matter of irrelevant technical details.
Remember this was way before simple, literal-minded Donny got into this. He wasn't talking about the Berlin Wall. He said Iron Curtain. The wall isn't physically there, the wall is drones and men in vehicles with guns. Closing the border is feasible. You just have to kill enough people who try.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Remember this was way before simple, literal-minded Donny got into this. He wasn't talking about the Berlin Wall. He said Iron Curtain. The wall isn't physically there, the wall is drones and men in vehicles with guns. Closing the border is feasible. You just have to kill enough people who try.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it? I spent like twenty minutes trying to get it off, and all I have is a scratched bumper, beaten up fingernails, and I still feel like shit.
posted by Sphinx at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Civil wars could happen. Incidentally if one broke out it's plausible that Russia would help arm the insurgents with some heftier badness. Don't think it can't happen here. It can happen here. I'm all out of illusions about what can and can't happen here now.
Perhaps wrongly, I tend to separate 'insurgency' from 'civil war' in my head - I tend to think of insurgency as what dis_integration called Asymmetric Warfare, and civil wars as more a nearly evenly matched armed conflict, as when the armed forces of several states lined up behind the confederacy.
Also, I didn't get across very well that the folks with the AK-47s wouldn't be interested in an insurgency, despite their crowing; they'd much rather fire on unarmed people who offend their sense of Rightness.
posted by Mooski at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Perhaps wrongly, I tend to separate 'insurgency' from 'civil war' in my head - I tend to think of insurgency as what dis_integration called Asymmetric Warfare, and civil wars as more a nearly evenly matched armed conflict, as when the armed forces of several states lined up behind the confederacy.
Also, I didn't get across very well that the folks with the AK-47s wouldn't be interested in an insurgency, despite their crowing; they'd much rather fire on unarmed people who offend their sense of Rightness.
posted by Mooski at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
That would have been the problem with Bernie's proposals in a general election campaign: The costs would have been measured, even some estimates made in good faith would have been worrying, Republicans and vested interests would have pounced on those cost estimates, and he'd have been on the defensive.
Meanwhile, Paul Ryan keeps submitting budget summaries full of magic asterisks and the political press anoints him a Serious, Honest, Policy Wonk. Forget about Trump; he made things up and everyone knew it, though few cared.
posted by Gelatin at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, Paul Ryan keeps submitting budget summaries full of magic asterisks and the political press anoints him a Serious, Honest, Policy Wonk. Forget about Trump; he made things up and everyone knew it, though few cared.
posted by Gelatin at 12:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The "Uncle Jerry" thing is starting to bug me as another one of those abuses of Kant's Categorical Imperative where the must be one right answer, and not a complicated calculus based on family history, safety, and potential patterns of abuse. My Uncle Jerry was my spiteful and frequently paranoid grandmother. The one time I talked about my principles in front of her as an adult, she went on a hunger strike, complained to her home health aide, and six hours later, I ended up answering questions about elder neglect because I had to step out for work. Unfortunately, we were stuck with each other for several years. I never did explicitly come out of the closet to her.
Stay safe and pick your battles. Sometimes, it really isn't worth it.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Stay safe and pick your battles. Sometimes, it really isn't worth it.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Now ask me if I think any of my Florida brethren would take their AK-47s to a gay bar.
Speaking of weapons, I've seen some online suggesting for the Democrats to drop gun control. It's too cultural of an issue to touch and it would be better to not just talk about it to win back single-issue voters.
posted by FJT at 12:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking of weapons, I've seen some online suggesting for the Democrats to drop gun control. It's too cultural of an issue to touch and it would be better to not just talk about it to win back single-issue voters.
posted by FJT at 12:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not spending time with racists is not a proper goal. It's a strategy, and strategies have half-lives. It's more important to be aware of and deliberate about whichever choice you make and how doing at relates to social progress. The labor lies in commiting to but also examining our choices over time. It's hard work, much like professional therapy.
posted by polymodus at 12:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by polymodus at 12:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it?
That's going to have to be a custom job. There's no such thing. The stickers might as well have been pre-applied at the factory.
posted by zachlipton at 12:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
That's going to have to be a custom job. There's no such thing. The stickers might as well have been pre-applied at the factory.
posted by zachlipton at 12:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I too did not vote for the Colorado health care measure for the reasons discussed above, although I am in favor of universal healthcare as a principle.
The history of the proposal and the campaign on both sides have a lot of details that do not map easily onto Clinton vs. Sanders in terms of the primary or general election.
posted by audi alteram partem at 12:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
The history of the proposal and the campaign on both sides have a lot of details that do not map easily onto Clinton vs. Sanders in terms of the primary or general election.
posted by audi alteram partem at 12:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it?
Did you try putting lighter fluid on it? Not to light it on fire, but it's usually effective on most sticker glue.
posted by drezdn at 12:50 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
He wasn't talking about the Berlin Wall. He said Iron Curtain. The wall isn't physically there, the wall is drones and men in vehicles with guns. Closing the border is feasible. You just have to kill enough people who try.
You have to post troops for the full length of the border, 24/7, and keep them there for years, and top-to-bottom inspect every vehicle coming into the country, sharply curtail legal movement between the two countries ... while dealing with the fact that that's not our only border, just the one that's easiest for most Mexicans to get to.
It's certainly do-able, but the economics are just as much a stopping point as the ethics. (Which is almost certainly why this hasn't been done.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
You have to post troops for the full length of the border, 24/7, and keep them there for years, and top-to-bottom inspect every vehicle coming into the country, sharply curtail legal movement between the two countries ... while dealing with the fact that that's not our only border, just the one that's easiest for most Mexicans to get to.
It's certainly do-able, but the economics are just as much a stopping point as the ethics. (Which is almost certainly why this hasn't been done.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
A madman has been given the keys to the surveillance state
posted by jeffburdges at 12:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 12:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton lost because people didn't show up.
Trump did not galvanize a new bunch of conservatives he got the same number that Republicans always get. Low voter turnout equals a Republican win almost every time.
There are lots of potential reasons why Democrats decided to stay home this election but ultimately they don't matter a lot because what's done is done.
I think the reality is that plenty of Republican voters toyed around with voting third party and in the end they did what Republicans always do and that's come home to their candidate. Are some percentage of those people racist and misogynist? Yes. Are the remainder that believe that things like a building a wall were just allegory and he doesn't speak for all republicans delusional? Yep.
I was talking with my wife last night and I said that I look around a group of white people these days and I wonder which of them are racist or who would want my PoC or LGBT friends dead and I realized that for better of worse I am now seeing the world through the eyes of a minority. That while my gender and my skin color allow me to blend in I realize that I am living in a completely different world than some of my fellow white Americans.
If you have Republican friends I encourage you to ask them what was it that Trump said or did that allowed them to look past all of the bad stuff he said. If racism and sexism aren't a part of their party ask them what they are doing to get rid of it. Ask them what do we say to kids who are terrified that they will be deported or kicked out of their homes. Ask them what do people who depend on Obamacare to help pay for their care do if Obamacare goes away.
posted by vuron at 12:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
Trump did not galvanize a new bunch of conservatives he got the same number that Republicans always get. Low voter turnout equals a Republican win almost every time.
There are lots of potential reasons why Democrats decided to stay home this election but ultimately they don't matter a lot because what's done is done.
I think the reality is that plenty of Republican voters toyed around with voting third party and in the end they did what Republicans always do and that's come home to their candidate. Are some percentage of those people racist and misogynist? Yes. Are the remainder that believe that things like a building a wall were just allegory and he doesn't speak for all republicans delusional? Yep.
I was talking with my wife last night and I said that I look around a group of white people these days and I wonder which of them are racist or who would want my PoC or LGBT friends dead and I realized that for better of worse I am now seeing the world through the eyes of a minority. That while my gender and my skin color allow me to blend in I realize that I am living in a completely different world than some of my fellow white Americans.
If you have Republican friends I encourage you to ask them what was it that Trump said or did that allowed them to look past all of the bad stuff he said. If racism and sexism aren't a part of their party ask them what they are doing to get rid of it. Ask them what do we say to kids who are terrified that they will be deported or kicked out of their homes. Ask them what do people who depend on Obamacare to help pay for their care do if Obamacare goes away.
posted by vuron at 12:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [34 favorites]
A repeat of the American Civil War built around the premise of secession or devolution isn't going to happen. Terrorism is another matter.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:53 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:53 PM on November 10, 2016
I'm gonna have to get back to Mom and Dad's place to use Goo Gone or lighter fluid. All I have here is a bottle of falling off of the wagon brand scotch.
posted by Sphinx at 12:55 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Sphinx at 12:55 PM on November 10, 2016
A vote for him is a vote for racism, xenophobia, sexism, and isolationism. Full stop.
posted by mochapickle at 12:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Speaking as someone who grew up in what is now the hollowed-out core of a Rust Belt city in the upper Midwest, I agree entirely with Patrick Thornton's take:
posted by informavore at 12:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
"We, as a culture, have to stop infantilizing and deifying rural and white working-class Americans. Their experience is not more of a real American experience than anyone else’s, but when we say that it is, we give people a pass from seeing and understanding more of their country."A lot of these parts of the country are more or less in an economic death spiral. They know this, and they want to hold someone to blame. As this article from the Chronicle of Higher Ed points out, there's not much that job training programs can do, either. These folks are getting older, and the jobs they knew how to do aren't coming back:
"They say, ‘I don’t want to go back to school. I want my old job back. I want things to go back to the way it was,’" he says. "There is nostalgia. And there is anger."The anger is real and understandable, but it's inextricably knotted up with cultural isolation and, yes, real ignorance of how people live in other parts of the country. As Kevin Drum points out, you can't just treat that as an economic problem, since--and this is crucial--the economic facts alone don't explain it:
"it's hard to conclude from all this that the white working class is angry about Democratic economic policies. It's mostly about racial and cultural identity—and Republicans appeal to that primarily via symbolic attacks on welfare and immigration and affirmative action and "inner city" crime. Can Democrats join them in doing that? I don't see how."The demise of the structural conditions that sustained white identity is also, necessarily, the demise of white supremacy. All we can do is hope that these are its death spasms, and not signs of a violent rebirth.
posted by informavore at 12:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
Clinton lost because people didn't show up.
Incidentally, this is why ANOHNI's Hopelessness has probably been disqualified from my records-of-the-year list this year. I can't help but think that her vitriolic excoriation of Obama probably contributed to a number of left-wing Democrats staying home or rationalising that they're-both-as-bad-as-each-other, possibly enough to tip the election.
posted by acb at 12:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Incidentally, this is why ANOHNI's Hopelessness has probably been disqualified from my records-of-the-year list this year. I can't help but think that her vitriolic excoriation of Obama probably contributed to a number of left-wing Democrats staying home or rationalising that they're-both-as-bad-as-each-other, possibly enough to tip the election.
posted by acb at 12:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Estonia is in the suburbs of St. Petersburg. The Russians aren't gonna necessarily come across the border militarily. The Russians are gonna do what they did in Ukraine," he said. "I'm not sure I would risk a nuclear war over some place which is the suburbs of St. Petersburg. I think we have to think about what does this stuff mean."
Distance from St. Petersburgh to Narva, Estonia, according to Google Maps: 152 km.
Distance from Montreal, QC to Burlington VT, according to Google Maps: 152 km.
J'espère que les gens du Vermont sont prêts à rénover leur français. Nous y serons bientôt, avec l'approbation tacite de Gingrich.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Distance from St. Petersburgh to Narva, Estonia, according to Google Maps: 152 km.
Distance from Montreal, QC to Burlington VT, according to Google Maps: 152 km.
J'espère que les gens du Vermont sont prêts à rénover leur français. Nous y serons bientôt, avec l'approbation tacite de Gingrich.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
When I woke up this morning I turned on the radio (CBC) and there was an hourly news update talking about Trump's potential cabinet members. I was half awake making coffee as they ran down the list - Palin, Gingrich, Giuliani, Christie - and it slowly hit me: I'm living in a bad South Park episode.
posted by mannequito at 1:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 1:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
The Muslim ban is back on Trump's site.
posted by beau jackson at 1:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by beau jackson at 1:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Muslim ban is back on Trump's site.
By Jove, I think Trump has tapped into some sort of quantum uncertainty effect where he holds all positions at the same time. Does the mere act of observing his website change its content?
posted by tonycpsu at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
By Jove, I think Trump has tapped into some sort of quantum uncertainty effect where he holds all positions at the same time. Does the mere act of observing his website change its content?
posted by tonycpsu at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Okay, so. I have an ACA health insurance plan. I'm trying to get a job that provides health insurance benefits, but right now I don't have that. Does anyone actually know what will happen if they do go ahead and "repeal and replace" Obamacare, realistically? Would the Obamacare coverage continue until whatever the replacement is goes into effect?
posted by wondermouse at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by wondermouse at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2016
A vote for him is a vote for racism, xenophobia, sexism, and isolationism. Full stop.
I have a friend who has never voted and no amount of reasoning will make him. But if you told him Rob Zombie was running he'd camp overnight outside the polls. He would not care if Rob could do the job or not.
So all these people that don't believe in the government or paying tax and especially politicians get the bigot of their fantasies to vote for, oh boy did they show up.
posted by adept256 at 1:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump Will Destroy the Federal Regulatory State. Just Ask Him.
Anyway, it’s the strangest thing. America’s most powerful elites haven’t gotten the memo that they were supposed to be uniformly opposed to Donald Trump:posted by tonycpsu at 1:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]Mr. Trump will probably find common ground with many Republicans in Congress, including Speaker Paul D. Ryan, on cutting regulation. They clashed during the campaign over Mr. Trump’s past conduct toward women and inflammatory statements about ethnic groups, and many Republicans do not see eye to eye with Mr. Trump on immigration and trade.Hmm, it’s almost as if the Republican Party is not united against Donald Trump but is united behind him because he is a vessel and in many cases an active collaborator they can work with to pass their agenda. This agenda, in short, is to completely gut the American regulatory and welfare states, enact a massive upward distribution of wealth, suppress minority voters, and to use the federal judiciary to attack progressive state legislatures and future Democratic Congresses on the one hand while allowing Republican statehouses and public officials free rein on the other. Admittedly, none of this is nearly as important as Hillary Clinton’s compliance with internal email management policies.
“But Ryan and Trump are like-minded on regulation in a way they are not on trade and immigration,” said Ted Gayer, director of the economic studies program at the Brookings Institution and a former Treasury official under President George W. Bush. “That is red meat for both of them.”
[...]
The thing about a constant drumbeat of negative coverage about bullshit pseudo-scandals is that, like negative advertising, it suppresses turnout. This was hugely beneficial to Donald Trump. Ignoring or distorting or outright lying about the vast substantive gulf between Ryan/McConnell/Trump’s Gilded Age radicalism and Hillary Clinton’s moderate liberalism is also, given the unpopularity of the former agenda, hugely beneficial to Donald Trump. Many Trump voters have no idea what’s about to be done to them and the planet and wouldn’t support it if they knew, but the media conspicuously failed to even try to inform the public about what actually matters about the election. I’m sure many of the editors and reporters who made abjectly horrible judgments about what was worth focusing on (and frequently botched the trivia they did decide to cover) figured it wouldn’t matter because Trump had no chance anyway. Heckuva job!
My guess is that there would have to be some period of time for the new law to be implemented. In that time, they'd probably let you keep your current plan.
posted by drezdn at 1:08 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by drezdn at 1:08 PM on November 10, 2016
How loyal to Putin are the Latvian Russians? I read a while ago (in Der Spiegel, I believe) that the citizens of the (90% Russian-speaking) eastern-Estonian city of Narva are very much pro-European and have little time for Russian nationalism or visions of “Eurasian” autocratic traditions of governance. They like their rule of law, not being fleeced by mafias or oligarchs, and the general humanistic post-Enlightenment world view very much, and aren't in a hurry to trade it in.
Fuck load of good that does.
The Russian disinformation machine will present them as helpless victims, and the useful idiots will buy it up. It's not even a right wing or left wing thing. Plenty of leftist shills take their cues (and possibly their orders) from Moscow. And it works. I have a Serbian frat brother who buys the line about how the Russians in Transnistria and the Osettians and Avkhazians needed rescue from the oh so cruel Romanians and Georgians. The enclaves in question were established years ago using the same playbook. Hell, the Sudetenland and Gdansk were taken under the same pretext.
posted by ocschwar at 1:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
In that time, they'd probably let you keep your current plan.
Because nothing is better for people with chronic health problems than praying for the largesse of the corporations. For fuck's sake.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because nothing is better for people with chronic health problems than praying for the largesse of the corporations. For fuck's sake.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Slate's Michelle Goldberg is advocating the adoption the post-Brexit symbol of solidarity and tolerance that people began wearing, the safety pin.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Donald Trump Will Destroy the Federal Regulatory State. Just Ask Him.
Oh yeah one of the fears my brain decided to deliver this morning was "what if they defund the FDA and my whole family gets sick and dies?" so that was fucking awful.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah one of the fears my brain decided to deliver this morning was "what if they defund the FDA and my whole family gets sick and dies?" so that was fucking awful.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
From Trump's site:
Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.
Yes, I am certain that with Trump's handpicked scumbags in his Cabinet and Administration, and the Senate and House being majority Republican, our country's representatives would absolutely kill themselves to make "figuring out what is going on" a top priority.
posted by Rykey at 1:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.
Yes, I am certain that with Trump's handpicked scumbags in his Cabinet and Administration, and the Senate and House being majority Republican, our country's representatives would absolutely kill themselves to make "figuring out what is going on" a top priority.
posted by Rykey at 1:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Patrick Thornton has expanded on his tweets about rural and elite; it's pretty good.
posted by emjaybee at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Everytime I hit the bottom, there's 132 more comments. So I'll just leave this here, one of many resonant comments from this NYT article:
I regret Lincoln's decision to maintain the Union when it was so clear that the marriage was over, as in 620,000 dead bodies over and done. But Lincoln intoned "With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds."
Of course, John Wilkes Booth did not see it that way, nor did the descendants of the Confederacy. And neither do the followers of Trump as they rejoice in the triumph of hate-mongering. His message was white-supremacist beginning with his disparagement of Obama's birth certificate, and it all went from there.
How to cope with Trump and his gargoyles? How about a national divorce lawyer to get this unwanted union over with? They don't want us, and we don't want them. No more shot-gun weddings, let's call off this abusive and unwanted marriage.
posted by yoga at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I regret Lincoln's decision to maintain the Union when it was so clear that the marriage was over, as in 620,000 dead bodies over and done. But Lincoln intoned "With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds."
Of course, John Wilkes Booth did not see it that way, nor did the descendants of the Confederacy. And neither do the followers of Trump as they rejoice in the triumph of hate-mongering. His message was white-supremacist beginning with his disparagement of Obama's birth certificate, and it all went from there.
How to cope with Trump and his gargoyles? How about a national divorce lawyer to get this unwanted union over with? They don't want us, and we don't want them. No more shot-gun weddings, let's call off this abusive and unwanted marriage.
posted by yoga at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Slate's Michelle Goldberg is advocating the adoption the post-Brexit symbol of solidarity and tolerance that people began wearing, the safety pin.
I just ordered 20 "LOVE TRUMPS HATE" buttons to spread around my friend group today for exactly the same reason.
posted by mayonnaises at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just ordered 20 "LOVE TRUMPS HATE" buttons to spread around my friend group today for exactly the same reason.
posted by mayonnaises at 1:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah one of the fears my brain decided to deliver this morning was "what if they defund the FDA and my whole family gets sick and dies?" so that was fucking awful.
Maybe not defund, but defang:
posted by Etrigan at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Maybe not defund, but defang:
Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.Hope you like side effects, America.
posted by Etrigan at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
greatagain.gov (sigh): Energy Independence
posted by tonycpsu at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Rather than continuing the current path to undermine and block America’s fossil fuel producers, the Trump Administration will encourage the production of these resources by opening onshore and offshore leasing on federal lands and waters. We will streamline the permitting process for all energy projects, including the billions of dollars in projects held up by President Obama, and rescind the job-destroying executive actions under his Administration. We will end the war on coal, and rescind the coal mining lease moratorium, the excessive Interior Department stream rule, and conduct a top-down review of all anti-coal regulations issued by the Obama Administration. We will eliminate the highly invasive "Waters of the US" rule, and scrap the $5 trillion dollar Obama-Clinton Climate Action Plan and the Clean Power Plan and prevent these unilateral plans from increasing monthly electric bills by double-digits without any measurable effect on Earth’s climate. Energy is the lifeblood of modern society. It is the industry that fuels all other industries. We will lift the restrictions on American energy, and allow this wealth to pour into our communities. It’s all upside: more jobs, more revenues, more wealth, higher wages, and lower energy prices.Drill baby drill.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I could maybe see a few secret #nevertrump delegates sneaking in
I wouldn't hope too hard for this. Every #NeverTrumper with any degree of electability we put up as a delegate. We didn't have the numbers to pack the electors too and figured we wouldn't have to. There may be some organic ones, but we didn't put them there or organize them, and it would be difficult to do in less than a month.
posted by corb at 1:20 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't hope too hard for this. Every #NeverTrumper with any degree of electability we put up as a delegate. We didn't have the numbers to pack the electors too and figured we wouldn't have to. There may be some organic ones, but we didn't put them there or organize them, and it would be difficult to do in less than a month.
posted by corb at 1:20 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Okay, so. I have an ACA health insurance plan. I'm trying to get a job that provides health insurance benefits, but right now I don't have that. Does anyone actually know what will happen if they do go ahead and "repeal and replace" Obamacare, realistically? Would the Obamacare coverage continue until whatever the replacement is goes into effect?
I'm not sure there's a way to really know, but I'm worried they'll fully gut Obamacare by executive action or one of the House budget methods, then use it's absence to pressure the Senate Democrats into not filibustering whatever alternative they have in mind.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:21 PM on November 10, 2016
I'm not sure there's a way to really know, but I'm worried they'll fully gut Obamacare by executive action or one of the House budget methods, then use it's absence to pressure the Senate Democrats into not filibustering whatever alternative they have in mind.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:21 PM on November 10, 2016
The kind of ironic thing about the Electoral College discussions is that if you go back to Hamilton's arguments in support of it, the EC is there to prevent exactly this sort of result, where an unfit candidate could ride a wave of popular support (in this case, not nationally, but certainly at the state level) to attain the office. The electors were intended to be qualified individuals who would take the will of the people into account but ultimately exercise their own independent judgment. This plan started going awry almost immediately as the party system took shape, but the EC actually choosing to exercise that independent judgment here would be in keeping with the spirit in which it was designed.
I also think it's essentially a total fantasy that we'd have faithless electors in sufficient numbers to flip the result, as they are generally chosen to be party loyalists. It would be without precedent, and I'd share the fear about violence as a result. I'm not sure that describing it as a coup is really fair given that DJT lost the popular vote by a sizable amount, but his supporters would probably be left with that sense (can you even IMAGINE the Trumpian demagoguery that would emerge from the EC electing someone else?) and respond accordingly.
posted by Kosh at 1:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I also think it's essentially a total fantasy that we'd have faithless electors in sufficient numbers to flip the result, as they are generally chosen to be party loyalists. It would be without precedent, and I'd share the fear about violence as a result. I'm not sure that describing it as a coup is really fair given that DJT lost the popular vote by a sizable amount, but his supporters would probably be left with that sense (can you even IMAGINE the Trumpian demagoguery that would emerge from the EC electing someone else?) and respond accordingly.
posted by Kosh at 1:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Drill baby drill.
It's especially ironic because the U.S. made huge energy independence leaps over the last years (partially from fracking, but still)
posted by drezdn at 1:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's especially ironic because the U.S. made huge energy independence leaps over the last years (partially from fracking, but still)
posted by drezdn at 1:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's Gingrich today backing off the "Mexico will pay for it" part, calling it a "great campaign device"
In other news, Russian hackers throw Trump victory party with new spear phishing campaign:
In other news, Russian hackers throw Trump victory party with new spear phishing campaign:
Less than six hours after Donald Trump won the US presidential election, a new spear phishing campaign was launched by a Russia-based group. The group is apparently one of the two organizations connected to the breach at the Democratic National Committee, and it's responsible for nearly a decade of intelligence collection campaigns against military and diplomatic targets.posted by zachlipton at 1:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Security firm Volexity refers to the group as "the Dukes" based on the malware family being utilized. According to a report by Volexity founder Steven Adair, the group is known for a malware family known as "the Dukes"—also referred to as APT29 or "Cozy Bear." The Dukes' primary targets in this latest round of attacks appear to be non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and policy think tanks in the US.
How, where, when did we go wrong?
posted by Postroad at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Reforms will also include cutting the red tape at the FDA: there are over 4,000 drugs awaiting approval, and we especially want to speed the approval of life-saving medications.
Hope you like side effects, America.
Thalidomide
posted by rocket88 at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hope you like side effects, America.
Thalidomide
posted by rocket88 at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
If I have to guess what alternative to Obamacare they'll go with, it's health savings accounts. Which aren't very useful unless you're upper middle class+.
posted by drezdn at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 1:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Keep those encryption resources coming people. And lists of responsive progressive orgs.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 1:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
We all know Clinton would have done better if she were a man. With the exact same record, she would have been fine and probably won.From a McKinsey summary on diversity in corporate workplaces: Women are judged on their achievements. Men are judged on their potential."
That certainly appears to hold true in this election. Clinton was continuously hung not only for her own minor infractions, but also for those of her committee, her foundation, and a number of other perceived extensions to her identity. Despite her career in governance and experience in decision-making, her platform was rarely as discussed as her identity.
On the other hand, Trump's history of corruption, graft, racism, sexism, etc. was largely accepted. Clinton's campaign could not get traction against Trump, for his supporters seemed immune to his past, focusing only on his potential. Despite the fact he was surrounded by deposed former greats from Giuliani to Assange, only his platform was discussed and never his identity. Despite personal failures endemic of a facist, and a razor-thin platform, his supporters looked past the man and only saw a promise.
Further, workplace diversity studies find that women executives are least likely to promote other women managers. Far from enacting diversity strategies within organisations, women executives penalise women managers – holding them to greater account than male managers and promoting women less often than male subordinates. Women receive more critical feedback and less praise for the same performance as men.
Perhaps that begins to explain how Clinton failed to capture the imagination of women on the voting day. Not only was she judged on her identity and not her platform, judged on her past instead of her potential, but also other women judged her more harshly than an openly sexist man with behaviour bordering on that of a predator.
Some of Hilary Clinton's most impassioned endorsements came from what the mainstream would consider highly-successful minorities, either measured by gender, race, or religion. Many of the most successful people in Silicon Valley are men, but they are immigrant men. Many successful female business leaders endorsed Clinton, but they are female business leaders. In all of these cases, white America purposefully looked beyond success and track-record. They looked at gender and race.
Meanwhile Donald Trump surrounded himself with a cabal of caucasian men of questionable ethics, morals, and status. One of his greatest supporters currently lives in an embassy in London where he is wanted by Sweden for sex crimes. Not only is Giuliani's track record in New York questionable, but he has developed a consultancy and lobbying firm that makes billions from known hostile corporations and governments. Pence is a fervent supporter of the Republican war on women, while the Brietbart/Drudge family have arguably done more to destroy credibility of the American media than any other outlet. Penultimately, one of silicon valley's brightest venture capitalists, a man who recently bankrupted a media outlet based on a personal vendetta. And finally, the leader of UKIP himself. A man who openly lied to Great Britain to get the Brexit referendum passed, and now incites violence as the country goes through its own former legal process.
Yet these men are not judged on their past actions or behaviours. They exist as white men who are free from being judged by their genders and races. For them, the privilege of being a white man means freedom from gender and race. In fact, it appears to mean freedom from identity itself. For the Republican side of the election was judged not on its pasts, but rather on a simply binary calculation. Can these men "make American great again?"
It is like entering the halls of mirrors, where the woman candidate has the platform and the plan that truly address the failings of the American economic, political, and social systems. She proposed the agendas that represented systemic and permanent fixes to broken communities.
The male candidate has a questionable history of personal behaviour, and associates with men whose histories are not questionable but rather known to be antisocial and predatory. He has no agenda other than a pro-business agenda, which will exacerbate unsustainable levels of inequality and decimate both environmental and social policies. Far worse from simply rolling back the clock to an America from a different time, Trump's agendas will leverage some of the most advanced systems and tools in the world against America's own weakest citizens and residents.
Yet, Clinton was judged on her identity – her achievements and failings – while Trump was simply judged on his potential to deliver an ambiguous and unspecified 'greatness'.
It is too easy to say that the system is rigged, although it very well may be. In the end, Clinton ended up bringing a knife to a gunfight. While she raised campaign donations and spent money on media buys, the Republican party had the help of foreign powers, hackers, and extraterritorial organisations like WikiLeaks. It may have been Hilary Clinton against Donald Trump, but it was the White Male World against Hilary Clinton.
It is a plot so stock it could have been lifted from the DaVinci Code. Female oppression at any cost – at every cost. While heritage and race are the most obvious forms of discrimination and social inequality, the most practiced form is that of gender inequality. The highest costs come from gender inequality. And the most brutal forms of enforcement come at the hands of gender inequality. Women receive equal pay in very few advanced societies, and further, women receive lesser protection from criminal activity and abuse in nearly every society.
Rape as a crime may well be the most underreported crime in the world – to the point where the most advanced legal structures in the world often fail to have a consistent and functional definition for rape in the real world. The concept is very clear, but the practice remains open to interpretation.
If women's unpaid labour worldwide was monetised, it would represent an economy greater than that of the United States. The underground economy of women's work is larger than the total output of the most advanced economies in history. And simultaneously the men who would run the world's most advanced industrial economy showed their willingness to oppress its women in primitive displays of male domination. "I grab them by their pussies," said the President-Elect of the United States on record.
Yet that comment alone not only did not disqualify him, but white women from the South defended him for saying it. Gender roles and limits imposed not individually, but rather structurally – designed into the very nature of the system itself. Women who believe that men are superior, and enforce that belief on other women. Women who can only justify their own repression by propagating that oppression itself.
Obama began laying the foundations for a true shift in American life, starting with education and health care. He sought to address the structural failures of the American economy and political system, and create change that won't even truly register for twenty years. Given Trump's 100 day play, Obama's policies may never register at all. Eight years of work dismantled in less than four. The solutions to America's problems will take a generation to solve. The country rose to power on the back of an industrial society, but now the world has moved on.
Too many unproductive machines and unproductive hands. Broken social contracts. The Republicans have a point that the neoliberal agenda failed to account for its own success. Globalisation enriched societies, but in greatly unequal measures. While Apple moved manufacturing to China and Apple and its shareholders continue to profit, American works fell down. The more companies that produced abroad, the more workers fell down. There was no safety net. There was nothing for them.
If New York had remained poor and desolate – as in the late 70s and early 80s – we could argue that deindustrialization was an American problem. But it's not. New York became so fantastically wealthy in the early 2000s that it had to literally invent new ways to recycle capital. When the Global Financial Crisis came, New York was the last place to be hit and the first place to recover. Obama may have won the rust belt on hope... twice... but precious little has been done to save those communities in this generation.
Obama – the great idealist – was laying down the plans to permanently fix the country. And in the meantime, it continued to degrade. Blocked by Republicans in Congress, supported by flyover states bubbling with seething racism and hatred. There is nothing Democrats can do to help the poor in Republican states, for those people are participants in their own enslavement. So focused on moral agendas, they fail to see systemic cycles of local poverty that persist regardless of who occupies the White House.
The great enslavers of bankrupt and broken caucasian communities aren't in the Federal government, they're in the local governments and in the state governments. But much like the women who are co-opted into shaming other women for achievement, poor white communities in America remain so distracted by claims that immigration and race drive poverty that they fail to see that the perpetrators of some of the the greatest wealth inequalities exist within their own communities.
A professor in Los Angeles once said that if you can keep the rats fighting by giving them table scraps, they'll completely miss the meal going on overhead. That is gender and race in America today – that was gender and race in this election. Those are the policies of Donald Trump, and that will be Donald Trump's America.
The calls to come together and maintain the orderly tradition of handing over power come. The concession, and the acceptance. The acquiesence to the infallibility of the American electoral process. The acquiescence to the finality of the American electoral process, for the votes that were cast represent the will of the people.
At present, the will of the people was for Hillary Clinton, first female American president, and her platform of rebooting the American economy around increased taxation, education and healthcare spending.
Instead, we are now being told that the will of the people was to elect a corrupt man who is openly racist and sexist. Who came to power in part because he was the beneficiary of illegal hacking activities, and supported by the inappropriate actions of some of American's own organs of law enforcement. A man who ran on an anti-globalisation platform, who was only elected because the activities of his supporters could not be prosecuted because they were conducted from foreign geographies.
And now, the American white male has participated in his own enslavement. By supporting another white male who will assuredly make his situation worse, whilst slagging off the woman – the minority – who will assuredly make his situation better. Donald Trump has perpetrated the greatest media campaign in history, in that he gained the support of people he has no intention of serving. In fact, he has managed to divide the country so heavily along gender and racial lines that the American people may out of desperation consume themselves.
Witness the hate crimes of Day 1 in Trump's America. People in poor and middle class communities attacking other people in poor and middle class communities. Meanwhile, the stock market hit a record high.
In campaigning under the banner of the ultimate change, Donald Trump has ensured that there will effectively be no change to the status of the white male elite in America. He successful posited Hillary Clinton as the plutocratic candidate, when her policies were amongst the most socially-aggressive that we would have seen. She was truly the ultimate change, while he represents no change.
However, he excels at marketing and branding, and he was able to convince enough of America of the mirror image – for long enough to win the election that will determine America's direction for the next 25 years.
If he is successful at remaining President Elect and transitioning into President, he may well have the opportunity to enact his plans and policies. The United States will lose its edge in so many areas it would be hard to cover them all, but most obviously renewable energy and technology. While Trump claims he will make America great again, if he is successful, he may well begin down the road Mao took China – a road of isolationism and self-destruction. By the time China emerged from its populist leanings, it was destroyed economically and millions upon millions had starved.
There will be those in American society that feel they have a moral imperative to prevent Donald Trump from taking his place as the President of the United States. There are petitions for the electoral college to elect Hillary Clinton based on the popular vote. As seen above, there are calls for Trump (and Pence's) assassination on social media. There are protests in the streets, and violence is erupting. Unless that violence occurs quickly and at a scale which demands national attention, Trump may well use that violence in the same way Erdogan uses dissent in Turkey. As an excuse to turn the military against the people and enforce compliance with his regime. The limits of restoring law and order know no bounds in a society as heavily militarised as America.
And in the end, we have reached a point which may well define the next chapter of America. Perhaps Obama represents our greatest leader, and when he leaves, we close the greatest chapter of American history. For as great as the country is (or was), we were unable to cross the last remaining divide – that of electing a woman to lead it. No matter how great America is – or proclaims to be – it will remain a society that can only be led by men, and therefore limited to be as great as a society only led by men can be. Thus, we may be witnessing the apex of America, and a gradual but consistent dissent is all that will remain.
Perhaps the saddest fact of all is that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. More people in America wanted her to lead the country than her opponent.
Yet, now the same Trump campaign that flouted the law and operated at the very edge of it, hides in defence behind it. The same campaign that used illegal methods to win the electoral vote now hides behind legal status in defending itself from the popular vote. The same campaign that would say anything under the acts of free speech, will now ensure that others are not free do the same.
There is a reason Vladimir Putin jockeyed for, and immediately congratulated Donald Trump. Putin needed Trump to win, so that America enters the same downward spiral as Russia. Trading on its past instead of its future. For by electing Trump, we have now elected a man who will exercise power like Putin exercises power. The disparities will grow, as will poverty, racism, and terrorism. The country and the world will be less safe, yet the white American man will believe he is safer. So long as the strong man maintains the illusion, the power structure remains hidden and therefore unassailable.
There will be many beneficiaries to Donald Trump's presidency, as there have been many beneficiaries of Vladimir Putin's leadership. Sadly, in the former case, those beneficiaries will not be the American people. Trump's America will be self-serving and consume the country. By the time he is done, China will be stronger, as will Europe – if it survives.
America has chosen to be poorer, more violent, and less fair. All because we as a whole couldn't judge a women by her potential, and instead held her to her achievements.
If this isn't a textbook example of the need for diversity in the workplace, I don't know what is.
posted by nickrussell at 1:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [100 favorites]
I realize I've brought up my Girl Scouts about eleventy times the last two days, but please allow me once more for a plug. I just posted the following on facebook:
posted by phunniemee at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
If you want to get more directly and continuously involved in helping build a brighter world together, consider volunteering with the Girl Scouts.If you want to get started but don't now how, shoot me a memail. I will do the legwork to get you hooked up.
Hillary Clinton was a Girl Scout. Michelle Obama was a Girl Scout. Janet Reno was a Girl Scout. Madeleine Albright was a Girl Scout. Sheila Widnall was a Girl Scout. Geraldine Ferraro was a Girl Scout. Carol Moseley Braun was a Girl Scout.
Help encourage tomorrow's leaders.
posted by phunniemee at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Yep, when a Republican goes to the voting booth and is asked to select between two candidates there is pretty much a given that they are going to vote Republican 9 times out of 10. This is evidenced by the fact that Trump really didn't lag behind down ballot incumbent Republicans in most cases. Republican voters understand that it's a package deal and they get some stuff they want with stuff they don't want.
The White Suburban Voter wants school choice because they don't want to send their kids to the local public school not because they are explicitly racist but because they want their kids to succeed. The White Suburban Voter wants gun rights because they feel like they can't depend on police to protect them from the spectre of home invasion or whatever other NRA bullshit fantasy. The White Suburban Voter is angry at liberals for making them feel bad (calling them racist, sexist, whatever) when they are doing what they've always done and what they've been raised to do. They don't want Obamacare because they already have employer provided healthcare and can't imagine an exsistence in which it's gone.
In contrast many white liberal voters (and let's be honest these are the people that seem to have failed to show up - latinx voter turnout was up and AA turnout was pretty high) seem to want their political allegiance to be an ala carte selection so you get the following:
I want an end to foreign interventions so X is unacceptable because they support the use of drones, and I want green economic growth so Y is unacceptable because they support frakking, and I want the end of neoliberal economic systems so Z is unacceptable because they are close with banks.
Unfortunately liberals seem to want a candidate with a compelling narrative that doesn't have any flaws and who is charismatic and kind and unfortunately those sorts of people don't typically enter into politics because politics is ugly and messy and it's about constant compromise.
Republican voters seem to understand this and will vote for the person that is going to get them the majority of what they want. Minority voters seem to understand this as well because they will continually vote for candidates that give them a chance at a better future. What I do see among many white liberals is that we fall victim to the both sides are just as bad logic and we disengage. We disengage because frankly for many of us there are no deep and lasting consequences either way.
I desperately wanted Clinton to win not because I'm going to be hurt by Trump's policies because most of them won't impact me at all either but because I was willing to accept the good with the bad and because I wanted my daughter to experience an America that was actually willing to elect a woman as President. I'm twisted in knots not because something negative is going to happen to me but because I don't want anything negative to happen to any of my fellow americans.
But unfortunately so many Americans are completely apathetic about the consequences of elections. It won't hurt them and theirs either way so they are willing to say a pox on both houses.
posted by vuron at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
The White Suburban Voter wants school choice because they don't want to send their kids to the local public school not because they are explicitly racist but because they want their kids to succeed. The White Suburban Voter wants gun rights because they feel like they can't depend on police to protect them from the spectre of home invasion or whatever other NRA bullshit fantasy. The White Suburban Voter is angry at liberals for making them feel bad (calling them racist, sexist, whatever) when they are doing what they've always done and what they've been raised to do. They don't want Obamacare because they already have employer provided healthcare and can't imagine an exsistence in which it's gone.
In contrast many white liberal voters (and let's be honest these are the people that seem to have failed to show up - latinx voter turnout was up and AA turnout was pretty high) seem to want their political allegiance to be an ala carte selection so you get the following:
I want an end to foreign interventions so X is unacceptable because they support the use of drones, and I want green economic growth so Y is unacceptable because they support frakking, and I want the end of neoliberal economic systems so Z is unacceptable because they are close with banks.
Unfortunately liberals seem to want a candidate with a compelling narrative that doesn't have any flaws and who is charismatic and kind and unfortunately those sorts of people don't typically enter into politics because politics is ugly and messy and it's about constant compromise.
Republican voters seem to understand this and will vote for the person that is going to get them the majority of what they want. Minority voters seem to understand this as well because they will continually vote for candidates that give them a chance at a better future. What I do see among many white liberals is that we fall victim to the both sides are just as bad logic and we disengage. We disengage because frankly for many of us there are no deep and lasting consequences either way.
I desperately wanted Clinton to win not because I'm going to be hurt by Trump's policies because most of them won't impact me at all either but because I was willing to accept the good with the bad and because I wanted my daughter to experience an America that was actually willing to elect a woman as President. I'm twisted in knots not because something negative is going to happen to me but because I don't want anything negative to happen to any of my fellow americans.
But unfortunately so many Americans are completely apathetic about the consequences of elections. It won't hurt them and theirs either way so they are willing to say a pox on both houses.
posted by vuron at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Hope you like side effects, America. I guess on the plus side with ACA repealed and the economy gutted we plebes probably won't be able to afford fripperies like medication.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 1:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I have to guess what alternative to Obamacare they'll go with, it's health savings accounts. Which aren't very useful unless you're upper middle class+.
Hahah remember when the Republicans were JUST FURIOUS about HIGH DEDUCTIBLE OBAMACARE?
Look what they've come up with. High deductible plans, just without the tax subsidies or consumer protections and with a BS tax writeoff that will mean nothing to the people who don't have enough writeoffs to justify not taking a standard deduction anyway.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hahah remember when the Republicans were JUST FURIOUS about HIGH DEDUCTIBLE OBAMACARE?
Look what they've come up with. High deductible plans, just without the tax subsidies or consumer protections and with a BS tax writeoff that will mean nothing to the people who don't have enough writeoffs to justify not taking a standard deduction anyway.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
If I have to guess what alternative to Obamacare they'll go with, it's health savings accounts. Which aren't very useful unless you're upper middle class+.
And even if you are. You can save and save for years, even if you're well off, and still not have enough for cancer or a transplant.
posted by mochapickle at 1:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
And even if you are. You can save and save for years, even if you're well off, and still not have enough for cancer or a transplant.
posted by mochapickle at 1:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
“This may be the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it — that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms at all about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable. The tragedy of all this is that George McGovern, for all his mistakes... understands what a fantastic monument to all the best instincts of the human race this country might have been, if we could have kept it out of the hands of greedy little hustlers like Richard Nixon. McGovern made some stupid mistakes, but in context they seem almost frivolous compared to the things Richard Nixon does every day of his life, on purpose... Jesus! Where will it end? How low do you have to stoop in this country to be President?” –HST
Lot of old paradigms that were useless the moment they were created still lurking in our infosphere. Look at the ’68 election and the Buckley vs Gore debates. Or rather, the perception and iterations of the Buckley-Vidal debates.
Two privileged extremists who didn’t like each other cast into the “conservative” and “liberal” voice of America. Wrong from the outset. Buckley defended Johnson, Daley, and Reagan (started as a strong-union Dem), Vidal championed attacking Buckley mostly.
What we remember, mostly, is Buckley calling Vial “queer” and Vidal calling him a “crypto-Nazi.”
But what was important was the media noticed they’d get better ratings by putting two talking heads on t.v. representing supposed positions rather than factually covering the actual ’68 conventions.
Plenty of people have noticed and commented in other threads on the historical similarities between ’68 Democrats and 2016 and Bernie Sanders, etc.
But that ain’t what happened, because coverage was focused on something other than reality. They didn’t get how someone could hate Trump because if you’re “conservative” you have to love the GOP candidate because we culturally impress bipolarity on our electorate.
Plenty of people who were New Deal dems voted for Reagan. We forgot that. But that’s by design. I’ve had plenty of people try to insult me by insulting Dick Cheney because I’m “conservative” I must love Bush-Cheney, amirite? And they “win” the “argument” and that’s apparently what the internet is for instead of actual discourse.
And to be clear, I don’t hold Buckley and Vidal harmless because t.v. is less relevant now.. They were pawns in pioneering this kind of “communication” but they were (more than) willing pawns.
As a result we live in two worlds with two different narratives that - beyond Orwell’s nightmare of constant triumph over the other side (which also shifts definition) – we actually PAY to participate in.
And naturally that fosters an appeal to the “uneducated.” Yes, the white working class people who voted for Reagan (and JFK or FRD if they’re that old) voted for Trump and so did their kids.
I love Garrison Keillor but his “Let the uneducated have their day” attitude is a classic example of the media position (in this case Dem). I can’t remember how many times Dem talking heads referred to “low information” voters and non-college grads implicitly as stupid, misogynist ingrates who don’t know what’s best for them and then get offended at being called elitist.
(Digression – I don’t know where ya’ll are coming from but I think of someone who didn’t go to college I think of my dad who busted his ass so I could. Congrats to the 5% who won the lucky sperm club fighting the good fight against the more privileged 1% for us ungrateful unwashed scum)
But hordes of stinking blue collar workers did not flood the pools skewing the vote, the grads/non-grads vote was split 50/50, plenty of elitist pricks (oh, sorry, well-to-do, educated sophisticates) voted for Trump.
And no civil rights marches (as opposed to ’68) but there was still a backlash to what many perceived rightly as stagnation (and I strongly supported Obama).
That doesn’t make any money though. You can’t say the nicer blue collar folks (or previously “hard working Americans”) are frustrated by stagnation in the political process because all sides make more money over conflict. It might seem like I’m picking on the Dems here but Garrison Keillor was mentioned above and we all know the GOP is certainly going to make money out of a Trump Presidency.
The media makes money by conflict. Ideological conflict. Factual conflict, over say, economics, is boring and doesn’t make money. Or even if it does, it doesn’t make enough. You have to take time and money to do research when it comes to numbers.
Have your talking head start a statement with “I think….” and you don’t have to spend any time fact-checking.
And of course neither political party is interested in change, just conflict. The GOP calls for (laughably now) more unity. The Dems call for it (yet – Bernie who?). But the media absolutely defines it. Defined it as Buckley vs Vidal in ’68 and the formula gets perpetuated and reiterated. Not just on t.v. but anything that deviates from that now standard formula gets ignored unless it can’t be or gets shouted down, or there’s an ad hominim (because unity) and of course, we can’t have the other lizard getting in.
Actual civil discourse is resisted as is reception to ideas. Incivility is not only tolerated but encouraged. “Incivility rates” to quote Aaron Sorkin
But “Sorkin's response is just the kind of cliched thinking that makes TV boring” to quote Ann Coulter (CAUTION: Ann Coulter).
Buckley and Gore were models of erudition and wit, but only models. With all that word implies in terms of simulacra and polarizing effect (and body dimorphism, self-esteem and as role models).
Trump was an inevitability of the environment we allow ourselves to be in. Live in filth, you’re gonna catch a disease. And chances are you’ll get called out for leaving it by the people you most trust who will urge you to love the filth, because it helps you smear your enemies after all. But hate the disease.
So, yeah, how’d that work out for us?
I mean, people are talking 3rd term for Rahm Emanuel as Chicago Mayor (Laquan who? Rahm is going to fine people for dog poop, yay!). It’s never the systems fault, there’s always a scapegoat be it bad cops, the other candidate/party or the ever present third parties.
Without bipartisan campaign reform, publicly funded elections, ending electioneering ,
and reinstating the fairness doctrine, at the very least – we’re not going to get the political parties, candidates, conventions and election process we want.
I mean, you can argue Trump shouldn’t have won. But we all played by the rules of the political process - as they stood. We knew the rules going in. We keep this “but it’s our guy this time” shit up and don’t change the system, we’re going to get hosed at least some of the time and eventually terminally. Maybe this time. We’ll see.
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” - JFK
TL;DR – the situation is even more fucked in the U.S. than it seems because the apparatus (plural) for discerning reality are invested in deceiving us. Yes, even by people you think are your friends.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Lot of old paradigms that were useless the moment they were created still lurking in our infosphere. Look at the ’68 election and the Buckley vs Gore debates. Or rather, the perception and iterations of the Buckley-Vidal debates.
Two privileged extremists who didn’t like each other cast into the “conservative” and “liberal” voice of America. Wrong from the outset. Buckley defended Johnson, Daley, and Reagan (started as a strong-union Dem), Vidal championed attacking Buckley mostly.
What we remember, mostly, is Buckley calling Vial “queer” and Vidal calling him a “crypto-Nazi.”
But what was important was the media noticed they’d get better ratings by putting two talking heads on t.v. representing supposed positions rather than factually covering the actual ’68 conventions.
Plenty of people have noticed and commented in other threads on the historical similarities between ’68 Democrats and 2016 and Bernie Sanders, etc.
But that ain’t what happened, because coverage was focused on something other than reality. They didn’t get how someone could hate Trump because if you’re “conservative” you have to love the GOP candidate because we culturally impress bipolarity on our electorate.
Plenty of people who were New Deal dems voted for Reagan. We forgot that. But that’s by design. I’ve had plenty of people try to insult me by insulting Dick Cheney because I’m “conservative” I must love Bush-Cheney, amirite? And they “win” the “argument” and that’s apparently what the internet is for instead of actual discourse.
And to be clear, I don’t hold Buckley and Vidal harmless because t.v. is less relevant now.. They were pawns in pioneering this kind of “communication” but they were (more than) willing pawns.
As a result we live in two worlds with two different narratives that - beyond Orwell’s nightmare of constant triumph over the other side (which also shifts definition) – we actually PAY to participate in.
And naturally that fosters an appeal to the “uneducated.” Yes, the white working class people who voted for Reagan (and JFK or FRD if they’re that old) voted for Trump and so did their kids.
I love Garrison Keillor but his “Let the uneducated have their day” attitude is a classic example of the media position (in this case Dem). I can’t remember how many times Dem talking heads referred to “low information” voters and non-college grads implicitly as stupid, misogynist ingrates who don’t know what’s best for them and then get offended at being called elitist.
(Digression – I don’t know where ya’ll are coming from but I think of someone who didn’t go to college I think of my dad who busted his ass so I could. Congrats to the 5% who won the lucky sperm club fighting the good fight against the more privileged 1% for us ungrateful unwashed scum)
But hordes of stinking blue collar workers did not flood the pools skewing the vote, the grads/non-grads vote was split 50/50, plenty of elitist pricks (oh, sorry, well-to-do, educated sophisticates) voted for Trump.
And no civil rights marches (as opposed to ’68) but there was still a backlash to what many perceived rightly as stagnation (and I strongly supported Obama).
That doesn’t make any money though. You can’t say the nicer blue collar folks (or previously “hard working Americans”) are frustrated by stagnation in the political process because all sides make more money over conflict. It might seem like I’m picking on the Dems here but Garrison Keillor was mentioned above and we all know the GOP is certainly going to make money out of a Trump Presidency.
The media makes money by conflict. Ideological conflict. Factual conflict, over say, economics, is boring and doesn’t make money. Or even if it does, it doesn’t make enough. You have to take time and money to do research when it comes to numbers.
Have your talking head start a statement with “I think….” and you don’t have to spend any time fact-checking.
And of course neither political party is interested in change, just conflict. The GOP calls for (laughably now) more unity. The Dems call for it (yet – Bernie who?). But the media absolutely defines it. Defined it as Buckley vs Vidal in ’68 and the formula gets perpetuated and reiterated. Not just on t.v. but anything that deviates from that now standard formula gets ignored unless it can’t be or gets shouted down, or there’s an ad hominim (because unity) and of course, we can’t have the other lizard getting in.
Actual civil discourse is resisted as is reception to ideas. Incivility is not only tolerated but encouraged. “Incivility rates” to quote Aaron Sorkin
But “Sorkin's response is just the kind of cliched thinking that makes TV boring” to quote Ann Coulter (CAUTION: Ann Coulter).
Buckley and Gore were models of erudition and wit, but only models. With all that word implies in terms of simulacra and polarizing effect (and body dimorphism, self-esteem and as role models).
Trump was an inevitability of the environment we allow ourselves to be in. Live in filth, you’re gonna catch a disease. And chances are you’ll get called out for leaving it by the people you most trust who will urge you to love the filth, because it helps you smear your enemies after all. But hate the disease.
So, yeah, how’d that work out for us?
I mean, people are talking 3rd term for Rahm Emanuel as Chicago Mayor (Laquan who? Rahm is going to fine people for dog poop, yay!). It’s never the systems fault, there’s always a scapegoat be it bad cops, the other candidate/party or the ever present third parties.
Without bipartisan campaign reform, publicly funded elections, ending electioneering ,
and reinstating the fairness doctrine, at the very least – we’re not going to get the political parties, candidates, conventions and election process we want.
I mean, you can argue Trump shouldn’t have won. But we all played by the rules of the political process - as they stood. We knew the rules going in. We keep this “but it’s our guy this time” shit up and don’t change the system, we’re going to get hosed at least some of the time and eventually terminally. Maybe this time. We’ll see.
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” - JFK
TL;DR – the situation is even more fucked in the U.S. than it seems because the apparatus (plural) for discerning reality are invested in deceiving us. Yes, even by people you think are your friends.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It is too easy to say that the system is rigged, although it very well may be. In the end, Clinton ended up bringing a knife to a gunfight. While she raised campaign donations and spent money on media buys, the Republican party had the help of foreign powers, hackers, and extraterritorial organisations like WikiLeaks. It may have been Hilary Clinton against Donald Trump, but it was the White Male World against Hilary Clinton.
One nation, under Pepe.
Fantastic comment, nickrussell.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
One nation, under Pepe.
Fantastic comment, nickrussell.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is how the world's best cartoonists are reacting to the Trump victory.
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't have the time or the patience to deal with "fuck the south" bullshit today. Especially after an election that defies simplistic regionalist stereotypes.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
sending out a list of progressive orgs to family who want to get me xmas gifts. donate or don't get me anything.
posted by ghostbikes at 1:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ghostbikes at 1:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
WI, MI, and OH are not the only states Hillary lost by a close margin with (a) double-digit EVs and (b) a history of voting with Democrats under the Obama coalition. FL, and NC fit this description as well. Together, WI, MI, and OH are 44 EVs. Together, NC and FL are... 44 EVs. Every bit of voter outreach in those states is as valuable as the same amount of outreach in the midwest, except the message is more consistent with progressive goals, and not in opposition to it when it comes to taxation, income support, and the safety net in general, which the white midwestern voters say they don't want as they're cashing the checks.
Well, that's the flip side of the critique. The Clinton campaign could have chosen to shore up support from the Rust Belt, which was already shaky because of Trump's appeal to Reagan Democrats. Or the campaign could have mobilized more effort towards those southern states for 'traditional' progressive voters. Instead, she failed to attain as many votes from women and minorities as Obama did. (Though admittedly the latter was impacted by voter suppression, though right now who knows by how much.)
I'm harping on the Rust Belt not only did those voters not vote for her, they actively voted against her by voting for Trump. And this was something that many, Michael Moore et al., saw was coming, that Pennsylvania and the Rust Belt would be the new battleground states. Did anyone see that Trump would still be able to get a substantial amount of votes from (white) women? That was more unforeseen. If the Clinton campaign knew that was a potential threat, then sure, forget the Rust Belt, they should've done more to get those votes instead.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, that's the flip side of the critique. The Clinton campaign could have chosen to shore up support from the Rust Belt, which was already shaky because of Trump's appeal to Reagan Democrats. Or the campaign could have mobilized more effort towards those southern states for 'traditional' progressive voters. Instead, she failed to attain as many votes from women and minorities as Obama did. (Though admittedly the latter was impacted by voter suppression, though right now who knows by how much.)
I'm harping on the Rust Belt not only did those voters not vote for her, they actively voted against her by voting for Trump. And this was something that many, Michael Moore et al., saw was coming, that Pennsylvania and the Rust Belt would be the new battleground states. Did anyone see that Trump would still be able to get a substantial amount of votes from (white) women? That was more unforeseen. If the Clinton campaign knew that was a potential threat, then sure, forget the Rust Belt, they should've done more to get those votes instead.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Okay, so. I have an ACA health insurance plan. I'm trying to get a job that provides health insurance benefits, but right now I don't have that. Does anyone actually know what will happen if they do go ahead and "repeal and replace" Obamacare, realistically? Would the Obamacare coverage continue until whatever the replacement is goes into effect?
Short answer: It depends.
Longer answer: I think the 2017 plan year is relatively safe; I guess they could blow the ACA up in a massive Day 1 bonfire but even that would, maybe just maybe, if they don't destroy the fillibuster, get held up in the Senate for some amount of time. And there are always parliamentary tricks.
I do not think there is any plausibly affordable and comprehensive option for replacing the ACA being discussed. The current level of discourse I've heard from the GOP is at about the same mental level as "the Wall" is to actual immigration policy. So even if they do replace it, the 'what' they replace it with is not necessarily going to work at all.
The safe thing to do is to proceed like you would have and get a 2017 plan.
You might want to think about non-essential things that you needed to have done at some point -- knee surgery, etc. I hate to say it but there's no guarantee that the ACA will be here after 2017 and so if you rely on that, well, plan to do what you can this (next) year.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Short answer: It depends.
Longer answer: I think the 2017 plan year is relatively safe; I guess they could blow the ACA up in a massive Day 1 bonfire but even that would, maybe just maybe, if they don't destroy the fillibuster, get held up in the Senate for some amount of time. And there are always parliamentary tricks.
I do not think there is any plausibly affordable and comprehensive option for replacing the ACA being discussed. The current level of discourse I've heard from the GOP is at about the same mental level as "the Wall" is to actual immigration policy. So even if they do replace it, the 'what' they replace it with is not necessarily going to work at all.
The safe thing to do is to proceed like you would have and get a 2017 plan.
You might want to think about non-essential things that you needed to have done at some point -- knee surgery, etc. I hate to say it but there's no guarantee that the ACA will be here after 2017 and so if you rely on that, well, plan to do what you can this (next) year.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here's Gingrich today backing off the "Mexico will pay for it" part, calling it a "great campaign device"
Shorter Newt: "Suckers!"
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Shorter Newt: "Suckers!"
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is how the world's best cartoonists are reacting to the Trump victory.
Also: Australia's David Pope and Cathy Wilcox.
posted by acb at 1:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also: Australia's David Pope and Cathy Wilcox.
posted by acb at 1:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or the campaign could have mobilized more effort towards those southern states for 'traditional' progressive voters. Instead, she failed to attain as many votes from women and minorities as Obama did. (Though admittedly the latter was impacted by voter suppression, though right now who knows by how much.)
You're conflating effort and outcomes in this critique. Setting aside different costs of competing in different media markets and what-not, a dollar spent in the rust belt is the same as a dollar spent in other winnable states. The fact that she didn't get the votes in FL and NC is as you say not a clear picture, but we're talking about strategy here, not execution. She could have spent the resources in the rust belt and still failed to get the votes.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:39 PM on November 10, 2016
You're conflating effort and outcomes in this critique. Setting aside different costs of competing in different media markets and what-not, a dollar spent in the rust belt is the same as a dollar spent in other winnable states. The fact that she didn't get the votes in FL and NC is as you say not a clear picture, but we're talking about strategy here, not execution. She could have spent the resources in the rust belt and still failed to get the votes.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:39 PM on November 10, 2016
mochapickle: We need to include the disabled in those who are at risk.
Agreed. And anyone who is fighting a chronic illness, or who is otherwise dependent upon the ACA for insurance.
ian1977: Or those who may be disabled or infirm at some point in the future...which is virtually all of us really.
Absolutely. Didn't mean to imply that was a comprehensive list.
posted by zarq at 1:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Agreed. And anyone who is fighting a chronic illness, or who is otherwise dependent upon the ACA for insurance.
ian1977: Or those who may be disabled or infirm at some point in the future...which is virtually all of us really.
Absolutely. Didn't mean to imply that was a comprehensive list.
posted by zarq at 1:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I have to guess what alternative to Obamacare they'll go with, it's health savings accounts. Which aren't very useful unless you're upper middle class+.
And have steady, predictable health expenses like medication or a chronic condition. An HSA can be wiped out in the blink of an eye by a life threatening crisis or serious illness.
None of which should be news to anyone in politics or the media, by the way. Again: Suckers!
posted by Gelatin at 1:41 PM on November 10, 2016
And have steady, predictable health expenses like medication or a chronic condition. An HSA can be wiped out in the blink of an eye by a life threatening crisis or serious illness.
None of which should be news to anyone in politics or the media, by the way. Again: Suckers!
posted by Gelatin at 1:41 PM on November 10, 2016
A friend of a friend posted this, from Rhodes College in Memphis (pricy private uni):
We didn't make it past Tuesday night before white students started harassing Muslim students at Rhodes with chants of "go back home" and "terrorist." Honor Code-signing Rhodes students - reducing several of their fellow students to tears with their unrepentant, virulent racism.posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:41 PM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Patrick Thornton has expanded on his tweets about rural and elite; it's pretty good.
I don't know anyone in the city who isn't either from a rural area or has vacationed in rural areas many times. When I lived in a very rural area, I did, however, meet plenty of people who had never been to the nearest city. I met people who, when mentioning I was taking a weekend break there with my husband, asked in all seriousness if I wasn't afraid of getting shot.
This lionizing of rural midwestern America as the only home of true American values is 100% code for "white culture is the truest, best culture." When the words "Heartland America" are uttered, no one is picturing a black farmer in Mississippi, they are picturing corn-fed white children running through fields of wildflowers on the prairie.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [63 favorites]
I don't know anyone in the city who isn't either from a rural area or has vacationed in rural areas many times. When I lived in a very rural area, I did, however, meet plenty of people who had never been to the nearest city. I met people who, when mentioning I was taking a weekend break there with my husband, asked in all seriousness if I wasn't afraid of getting shot.
This lionizing of rural midwestern America as the only home of true American values is 100% code for "white culture is the truest, best culture." When the words "Heartland America" are uttered, no one is picturing a black farmer in Mississippi, they are picturing corn-fed white children running through fields of wildflowers on the prairie.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [63 favorites]
Donald Trump Will Be President. This Is What We Do Next by Jon Schwarz
I found that piece slightly miss-guided in one or maybe two places, but this quote is nice :
``As Bernie Sanders put it this spring, Obama’s “biggest mistake” was organizing a huge grassroots army and then telling all those loyal followers, “Thank you very much for electing me, I’ll take it from here.”
Obama had one of the powerful political organizations ever assembled in U.S. history, and he just disbanded it. According to one of Obama’s top organizers, he saw it “as a tiger you can’t control.” This unquestionably contributed to the current Republican dominance of Congress, and now most of his presidency may be washed away like a sandcastle.''
posted by jeffburdges at 1:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I found that piece slightly miss-guided in one or maybe two places, but this quote is nice :
``As Bernie Sanders put it this spring, Obama’s “biggest mistake” was organizing a huge grassroots army and then telling all those loyal followers, “Thank you very much for electing me, I’ll take it from here.”
Obama had one of the powerful political organizations ever assembled in U.S. history, and he just disbanded it. According to one of Obama’s top organizers, he saw it “as a tiger you can’t control.” This unquestionably contributed to the current Republican dominance of Congress, and now most of his presidency may be washed away like a sandcastle.''
posted by jeffburdges at 1:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Keep those encryption resources coming people. And lists of responsive progressive orgs.The IVPN privacy guides are excellent.
posted by Coventry at 1:45 PM on November 10, 2016
Obama had one of the powerful political organizations ever assembled in U.S. history, and he just disbanded it. According to one of Obama’s top organizers, he saw it “as a tiger you can’t control.” This unquestionably contributed to the current Republican dominance of Congress, and now most of his presidency may be washed away like a sandcastle.''
yea totally agree.
posted by zutalors! at 1:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
CNN's got a source saying that Trump wants Bannon for Chief of Staff.
There were some initial reports that it could be Priebus, which would at least put a professional semi-rational face on the administration. I'm guessing someone from the semi-rational wing of the party started that rumor in the hope it might come true. Bannon is straight up terrifying; he's the guy who complained, according to his ex-wife anyway, that there were too many Jews at his kids' school and did a radio interview where he called progressive women a homophobic slur.
posted by zachlipton at 1:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
There were some initial reports that it could be Priebus, which would at least put a professional semi-rational face on the administration. I'm guessing someone from the semi-rational wing of the party started that rumor in the hope it might come true. Bannon is straight up terrifying; he's the guy who complained, according to his ex-wife anyway, that there were too many Jews at his kids' school and did a radio interview where he called progressive women a homophobic slur.
posted by zachlipton at 1:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Being a Girl Scout isn't going to prevent people from losing rights. Because, from where I'm standing, people are going to lose some rights.
posted by Sphinx at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Sphinx at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2016
The fact that she didn't get the votes in FL and NC is as you say not a clear picture, but we're talking about strategy here, not execution.
Fair enough. Then I judge her campaign by its execution, not its strategy. Especially when they had the resources and personnel to do so, compared to the opposing team.
On the subject of outreach to women and minorities, lower votes compared to Obama is also startling. In these liberal circles it's a no-brainer, self-evident to oppose Trump for his actions and stances towards women, towards minorities, towards immigrants and those of other religions in general. All of this emphasized by his fan club, some of whom go further than he does. And yet, casting this as a straightforward existential fight against the Republic of Gilead, as a moral crusade against a new type of fascism and nativism, simply did not get the numbers from those groups that Obama did. Was voter suppression really that pervasive? How come there wasn't a massive mobilization of the groups that would be worst hit by Trump's policies? Why?
I recognize that this angle is completely invalidated if further analysis reveals that she did indeed get as many or more votes from minority groups, or that not as many white women voted for Trump as reported. Or that the exit polls were totally bogus.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fair enough. Then I judge her campaign by its execution, not its strategy. Especially when they had the resources and personnel to do so, compared to the opposing team.
On the subject of outreach to women and minorities, lower votes compared to Obama is also startling. In these liberal circles it's a no-brainer, self-evident to oppose Trump for his actions and stances towards women, towards minorities, towards immigrants and those of other religions in general. All of this emphasized by his fan club, some of whom go further than he does. And yet, casting this as a straightforward existential fight against the Republic of Gilead, as a moral crusade against a new type of fascism and nativism, simply did not get the numbers from those groups that Obama did. Was voter suppression really that pervasive? How come there wasn't a massive mobilization of the groups that would be worst hit by Trump's policies? Why?
I recognize that this angle is completely invalidated if further analysis reveals that she did indeed get as many or more votes from minority groups, or that not as many white women voted for Trump as reported. Or that the exit polls were totally bogus.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's a prediction: at some point the Trump administration will announce, or otherwise let it be known, that they have eliminated the threat of Sharia Law superseding American civil law. Easily done, since such a threat never existed.
We should make a list (if I haven't missed one above) of fake achievements Trump might claim during or after his presidency, given both his capacity for lying and the abyssal and Stygian depths of absurd right-wing conspiracy theory he has shown such versatility in exploiting.
posted by XMLicious at 1:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
We should make a list (if I haven't missed one above) of fake achievements Trump might claim during or after his presidency, given both his capacity for lying and the abyssal and Stygian depths of absurd right-wing conspiracy theory he has shown such versatility in exploiting.
posted by XMLicious at 1:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump also boasted of how long their meeting had been. He said it was scheduled for ten minutes but lasted for an hour and a half, and could have gone on much longer.
According to Politico, one of the first things Trump said publicly in the Oval Office was a lie:
According to Politico, one of the first things Trump said publicly in the Oval Office was a lie:
Then he started his remarks with something that was not true: “This was a meeting that was going to last for maybe 10 or 15 minutes,” Trump said.posted by zachlipton at 1:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
The meeting had been scheduled to last an hour. The reporters brought into the Oval Office at the end were told long before not to even assemble for the brief access at its end until the meeting would have been going on for 30 minutes.
Fair enough. Then I judge her campaign by its execution, not its strategy.
And I'm with you on that. However...
Especially when they had the resources and personnel to do so, compared to the opposing team.
I don't think this is the case considering the compelling evidence of many non-monetary advantages Trump had throughout the election, including the media advantage Scott Lemieux talks about in this post and the compelling case nickrussell makes above about how much easier Trump's path was because of lowered expectations.
When you account for these differences, it's not clear that Hillary coughed up an easy win. Dollars don't vote.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:56 PM on November 10, 2016
And I'm with you on that. However...
Especially when they had the resources and personnel to do so, compared to the opposing team.
I don't think this is the case considering the compelling evidence of many non-monetary advantages Trump had throughout the election, including the media advantage Scott Lemieux talks about in this post and the compelling case nickrussell makes above about how much easier Trump's path was because of lowered expectations.
When you account for these differences, it's not clear that Hillary coughed up an easy win. Dollars don't vote.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:56 PM on November 10, 2016
I don't want to listen to or understand Trump voters. I'd rather listen to Sanders people's ideas on how to reform the Democratic Party. I liked what they advanced for the platform and appreciate changes that need to be made in leadership. We need all those Democrats in Congress fighting for us and based on the 2000s I'm not sure they will.
posted by zutalors! at 1:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 1:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a woman, a Muslim, and an immigrant. I voted for Trump. (WaPo)
A lot is being said now about the “silent secret Trump supporters.”posted by Rumple at 1:57 PM on November 10, 2016
This is my confession — and explanation: I — a 51-year-old, a Muslim, an immigrant woman “of color” — am one of those silent voters for Donald Trump. And I’m not a “bigot,” “racist,” “chauvinist” or “white supremacist,” as Trump voters are being called, nor part of some “whitelash.”
In the winter of 2008, as a lifelong liberal and proud daughter of West Virginia, a state born on the correct side of history on slavery, I moved to historically conservative Virginia only because the state had helped elect Barack Obama as the first African American president of the United States.
But, then, for much of this past year, I have kept my electoral preference secret: I was leaning toward Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump.
Obama had one of the powerful political organizations ever assembled in U.S. history, and he just disbanded it. According to one of Obama’s top organizers, he saw it “as a tiger you can’t control.” This unquestionably contributed to the current Republican dominance of Congress, and now most of his presidency may be washed away like a sandcastle.''
Here's the weird thing, though -- OFA still technically exists, at least a little. Someone, somewhere is still updating their FB and Twitter (although their website doesn't seem to have been updated since April). The data is all still there.
How hard could it be, do you think, to unmothball it and turn it into a functioning organization again, after inauguration? A lot of people would follow President Obama into whatever firefight he chooses to lead us into.
posted by anastasiav at 1:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's the weird thing, though -- OFA still technically exists, at least a little. Someone, somewhere is still updating their FB and Twitter (although their website doesn't seem to have been updated since April). The data is all still there.
How hard could it be, do you think, to unmothball it and turn it into a functioning organization again, after inauguration? A lot of people would follow President Obama into whatever firefight he chooses to lead us into.
posted by anastasiav at 1:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Australia's first female Prime Minister Julia Gillard really had a rough time with misogyny. One day in parliament, she just had enough and went on a 15 minute rant at the vile Tony Abbott, who was then in opposition.
Shorter hi-light reel with explanatory commentary.
Now he's looking at his watch because a WOMAN HAS TALKED TOO LONG!
If you want to see a strong female leader tell a stupid caveman that she won't put up with his shit, have a look.
posted by adept256 at 1:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Shorter hi-light reel with explanatory commentary.
Now he's looking at his watch because a WOMAN HAS TALKED TOO LONG!
If you want to see a strong female leader tell a stupid caveman that she won't put up with his shit, have a look.
posted by adept256 at 1:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Republicans are honestly kind of fucked. They have a caucus of burn the whole thing down assholes in the house that are basically unmanageable. They have a bunch of status quo loving assholes in the senate who like their power and prestige and don't want to surrender their power to the house. And they have a president in the white house who is unpredictable and largely incompetent.
Scalia will no doubt get replaced with an asshole in what is no doubt one of the slimiest moves in modern history.
Gay Marriage will probably be safe because they know it's a losing issue.
Obamacare will probably be partially dismantled because some parts of it are really popular such as preventing Insurance companies from rejecting you based on prior illnesses. Republicans in general might not like a lot of the ACA but they also know that if they fuck too much with it they are going to feel a big backlash.
The "Wall" will be just some increased funding for border control because nobody will actually want to pay for a big ass wall in the sonoran desert and illegal immigration is increasingly bypassing the southern border anyway.
Republicans will fail on any sort of immigration reform because the business block wants a path to citizenship model and the nativist block is unwilling to compromise.
Most of the US government will basically continue on auto-pilot because that's what it does everytime. Any attempts at major entitlement reform are doomed to failure because it would be insanely unpopular to fuck with SS or Medicare/Medicaid and Republicans know that fucking with either one based upon a narrow electoral college victory would be suicide.
So long story short incrementalism is going to limit their ability to do too much damage. Yes there will be a lot of people hurt by this but they are not going to be able to undo the New Deal. St Reagan tried and failed and Trump and the incompetent people around him will fail as well.
posted by vuron at 2:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Scalia will no doubt get replaced with an asshole in what is no doubt one of the slimiest moves in modern history.
Gay Marriage will probably be safe because they know it's a losing issue.
Obamacare will probably be partially dismantled because some parts of it are really popular such as preventing Insurance companies from rejecting you based on prior illnesses. Republicans in general might not like a lot of the ACA but they also know that if they fuck too much with it they are going to feel a big backlash.
The "Wall" will be just some increased funding for border control because nobody will actually want to pay for a big ass wall in the sonoran desert and illegal immigration is increasingly bypassing the southern border anyway.
Republicans will fail on any sort of immigration reform because the business block wants a path to citizenship model and the nativist block is unwilling to compromise.
Most of the US government will basically continue on auto-pilot because that's what it does everytime. Any attempts at major entitlement reform are doomed to failure because it would be insanely unpopular to fuck with SS or Medicare/Medicaid and Republicans know that fucking with either one based upon a narrow electoral college victory would be suicide.
So long story short incrementalism is going to limit their ability to do too much damage. Yes there will be a lot of people hurt by this but they are not going to be able to undo the New Deal. St Reagan tried and failed and Trump and the incompetent people around him will fail as well.
posted by vuron at 2:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
So what I am seeing in my social media feeds is a whole lot of business as usual, oh well, let's get back to normal, etc. etc.
This is hard to reconcile with my personal feeling that this is one of the worst things to happen to the United States in its entire history. I am legitimately afraid that this is the beginning of the end for the U.S.
But apparently this, too, shall normalize. The vast majority of (white) people are just going to fall in line and read their People magazine with that shiny photo of Prez Trump on it, and say, "oh, it won't be that bad."
posted by Gaz Errant at 2:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
This is hard to reconcile with my personal feeling that this is one of the worst things to happen to the United States in its entire history. I am legitimately afraid that this is the beginning of the end for the U.S.
But apparently this, too, shall normalize. The vast majority of (white) people are just going to fall in line and read their People magazine with that shiny photo of Prez Trump on it, and say, "oh, it won't be that bad."
posted by Gaz Errant at 2:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [37 favorites]
Gaz, you and I are in exactly the same place. I am afraid to raise my sons here.
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
As with any complex social phenomena, the election results are likely to be caused by several independent variables across different demographic groups. Also trying to game the EC votes by focusing on a few key states has proven to be a weak strategy for Democrats, both in the Presidential race and down-ticket. We're blind men groping an elephant here and shouting, "it's a rope, it's a snake, it's a tree!"
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the morning after the election, the local tv news channel carried the results, mentioned the surprise, and played a couple clips and then segued into discussing the bigger space between the triangles in chocolate lover's Toblerone bars in approximately the same level of importance and concern. Yeah, a lot of white America will be back to business as usual, so keep your voice down if your getting attacked, they're busy too you know and don't have time to be disturbed.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 2:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think there's hope Trump will be too lazy or not actually care enough to follow through on a lot of his shitty promises.
But if he goes through his plan to require Muslims to be registered, maybe a whole lot of us should consider registering as Muslims for government purposes (even if we attend Christian churches or none at all).
Seriously, any Muslim MeFites have an opinion about whether something like that would be a good idea? I like the idea of some way of trying to gum up the works and say 'Screw you, Donald, we're all Americans,' but I don't like the idea of claiming to be one of you when I'm not, especially since I know it's unlikely I'd really be putting myself in the kind of danger you might be facing.
posted by straight at 2:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
But if he goes through his plan to require Muslims to be registered, maybe a whole lot of us should consider registering as Muslims for government purposes (even if we attend Christian churches or none at all).
Seriously, any Muslim MeFites have an opinion about whether something like that would be a good idea? I like the idea of some way of trying to gum up the works and say 'Screw you, Donald, we're all Americans,' but I don't like the idea of claiming to be one of you when I'm not, especially since I know it's unlikely I'd really be putting myself in the kind of danger you might be facing.
posted by straight at 2:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
reposting because it got buried in the end of the last thread. holy CRAP these things move fast: I'm going to attempt to keep this kind of short, and i'm going to try to keep it as civil as possible.
I went out tuesday expecting it to be like 2012. We'd drink a few beers, have a ~zany~ drunkish moment of "haha woahh sure is a nailbiter!" and go home. We bar hopped a bit, and every place i stopped in he was always ahead. But every person i ran in to, and my friends, were constantly like "no calm down he CANT win they just haven't counted it up yet" until... Well.
I ended up sitting on the ground outside a bar crying on the phone with my brown mom. We were both hammered as fuck at this point. We debated ditching our lives in the city and moving back to the rez, and various other escape strategies. But it felt really hollow.
What i was prepared for was getting up on wednesday morning knowing we had a long fight ahead of us if half the country would vote for an empty shell of a person going "but racism, and misogyny too ;)". After said phone call, i proceeded to get so hammered that i left my debit card at the bar and woke up to my dad at the door of my place going "get the fuck up and go to work, you need money for the apocalypse" and offering a ride. I googled it 5 or 6 times, in complete fucking disbelief.
I ended up having to leave work early because i had a panic attack at my desk. I spent the entire night laying on a friends couch(who is a queer WOC) as we commiserated about how fucking fucked this is. Half bouncing off possible consequences and outcomes to get them out of our heads and blow off steam, and half because... well.
I've struggled with how to articulate this for the past almost 48 hours now. But i don't feel like i actually know what the fuck this place is anymore. I was already feeling that way when that many people were down with the assclown beforehand, but now that he won? Now that people are already getting their hijabs ripped off, being assaulted, a random shooting or two has happened(IN LESS THAN TWO DAYS), the DAPL thing... It's like these people were eager and waiting to act out on how they really felt.
Living in seattle, and being in the metafilter bubble i really thought we were getting better than this. Were there still plenty of boys-will-be-boys assholes and racists? Sure! And there were way more than the average progressive white person thought too! But what this tells me is that most white people, including most white women(insert lol-white-feminism dig) are racist, misogynistic assholes who would sell their own ass to satan just to make sure someone they don't like doesn't get a chance.
How do you recover from that realization? What do you even do? How do you move forward from there believing that you can fix that?
I'm not saying i'm unwilling to try, and i'm not saying i'm not going to fight. I'm ready to organize, because fuck this. I'm ready to get out there in the street and punch some nazis, or sit in city council meetings to make sure the newly empowered fuckers don't think they can moonwalk in, whatever it takes. My coworker, a former social worker who went into IT, is organizing a large recurring food drive under the assumption social services are about to get hosed. I've joined, or been added to a lot of community/organizing online groups that rapidly popped up.
But seriously, what do you do with that information? I've never been this gutted by finding something out ever. This is like 1000x finding out my grandpa was a sexual abuser, or a close friend was a rapist, or anything like that. My mom always told me she moved away from the rural town she grew up in to get away from these assholes, and i genuinely thought they were on the decline. Now the fuck what?
If anybody missed it, the Dakota Access pipeline operators chose yesterday to bury the news that they're going to go ahead with drilling under the Missouri river, with the project due to start within two weeks.
This is fucked, and this has been a huge issue for me for months. It's a direct assault on tribal sovereignty. But, and i hate to say it, trump is jumping straight on that train. I, unlike some here, do really believe this stupid wall will be built. Whats a couple billion dollars? It'll get rammed through, and they'll at least start building it even if it gets stopped later after the end of his first term. And yes, i do believe after everything i've seen with DAPL that they're going to just roll right out there onto tribal land and build that section.
in some ways I find the expressions of idiot joy from the assholes who actually wanted Trump to win less irritating than the I-told-you-soing from our friends on the lefty-left who are thrilled to see "neo-liberalism" die while extreme-rightism is bouncing around full of spit and energy right behind them
Honestly yea, it annoys me. But it doesn't annoy me as much as the months and MONTHS of "yea he's bad but hillary clinton is a warmongering system toadie who *insert partial truth and some republican lies* who will bomb brown children!" from mostly progressive white dudes, to a lesser extent progressive white women, and a vanishingly few POC.
Looking over my facebook, ig, etc in the past few days the narrative was almost entirely white people talking about how sus she was and how you shouldn't do it, and brown people saying "do this for the good of the country and she's actually not that bad", or at the very least the first part. A few even called it out as a some variety of faux-lefty bullshit to not.
It's been said in this thread before, but who do you think saw that GIGANTIC TORRENT of diarrhea slurry from the right, AND the fairly huge one from the left(especially the ~hard~ left) against her, from everyone between cuckservatives and communists? What does that look like, if you're undecided or a skeptical right(or left!) voter? Most of the left is saying trump is bad, and a bit of the right is. But ALL of the right is saying clinton is bad, and a lot of the online left is too. Hell, it drove people in to secret hillary groups.
The media is to blame here too, but i don't know how i can look a lot of these piece of shit jill stein voting honkies who posted this stuff for MONTHS in the eye now. I'm not blaming this on third party voters, no, i'm placing at least some of the blame here on "leftists" who repeated the same bullshit about clinton and played the "both sides" game to seem woke.
At the very least, most of the internet groups i'm in aren't as shit as i thought because they shut the fuck up with that and are working on organizing now. But yea, i've seen a bit of the smug-fuck-neoliberalism.
But i couldn't stop chuckling, one of the only dark chuckles i got, at some of those fucks. "Ok, you broke the system, congratulations. Now what?". I also, and i'm trying to work through it, have SO little sympathy for the super duper smug lefty dudes who kept telling me "it's not like he can win anyways, he's a fake candidate, focus on how bad she is/will be".
That rhetoric doesn't go nowhere, and it didn't effect nothing. Own what you contributed to and helped achieve, shitty leftists. Especially shitty WHITE leftists in blue areas. The internet is not a neighborhood bar.
posted by emptythought at 2:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
I went out tuesday expecting it to be like 2012. We'd drink a few beers, have a ~zany~ drunkish moment of "haha woahh sure is a nailbiter!" and go home. We bar hopped a bit, and every place i stopped in he was always ahead. But every person i ran in to, and my friends, were constantly like "no calm down he CANT win they just haven't counted it up yet" until... Well.
I ended up sitting on the ground outside a bar crying on the phone with my brown mom. We were both hammered as fuck at this point. We debated ditching our lives in the city and moving back to the rez, and various other escape strategies. But it felt really hollow.
What i was prepared for was getting up on wednesday morning knowing we had a long fight ahead of us if half the country would vote for an empty shell of a person going "but racism, and misogyny too ;)". After said phone call, i proceeded to get so hammered that i left my debit card at the bar and woke up to my dad at the door of my place going "get the fuck up and go to work, you need money for the apocalypse" and offering a ride. I googled it 5 or 6 times, in complete fucking disbelief.
I ended up having to leave work early because i had a panic attack at my desk. I spent the entire night laying on a friends couch(who is a queer WOC) as we commiserated about how fucking fucked this is. Half bouncing off possible consequences and outcomes to get them out of our heads and blow off steam, and half because... well.
I've struggled with how to articulate this for the past almost 48 hours now. But i don't feel like i actually know what the fuck this place is anymore. I was already feeling that way when that many people were down with the assclown beforehand, but now that he won? Now that people are already getting their hijabs ripped off, being assaulted, a random shooting or two has happened(IN LESS THAN TWO DAYS), the DAPL thing... It's like these people were eager and waiting to act out on how they really felt.
Living in seattle, and being in the metafilter bubble i really thought we were getting better than this. Were there still plenty of boys-will-be-boys assholes and racists? Sure! And there were way more than the average progressive white person thought too! But what this tells me is that most white people, including most white women(insert lol-white-feminism dig) are racist, misogynistic assholes who would sell their own ass to satan just to make sure someone they don't like doesn't get a chance.
How do you recover from that realization? What do you even do? How do you move forward from there believing that you can fix that?
I'm not saying i'm unwilling to try, and i'm not saying i'm not going to fight. I'm ready to organize, because fuck this. I'm ready to get out there in the street and punch some nazis, or sit in city council meetings to make sure the newly empowered fuckers don't think they can moonwalk in, whatever it takes. My coworker, a former social worker who went into IT, is organizing a large recurring food drive under the assumption social services are about to get hosed. I've joined, or been added to a lot of community/organizing online groups that rapidly popped up.
But seriously, what do you do with that information? I've never been this gutted by finding something out ever. This is like 1000x finding out my grandpa was a sexual abuser, or a close friend was a rapist, or anything like that. My mom always told me she moved away from the rural town she grew up in to get away from these assholes, and i genuinely thought they were on the decline. Now the fuck what?
If anybody missed it, the Dakota Access pipeline operators chose yesterday to bury the news that they're going to go ahead with drilling under the Missouri river, with the project due to start within two weeks.
This is fucked, and this has been a huge issue for me for months. It's a direct assault on tribal sovereignty. But, and i hate to say it, trump is jumping straight on that train. I, unlike some here, do really believe this stupid wall will be built. Whats a couple billion dollars? It'll get rammed through, and they'll at least start building it even if it gets stopped later after the end of his first term. And yes, i do believe after everything i've seen with DAPL that they're going to just roll right out there onto tribal land and build that section.
in some ways I find the expressions of idiot joy from the assholes who actually wanted Trump to win less irritating than the I-told-you-soing from our friends on the lefty-left who are thrilled to see "neo-liberalism" die while extreme-rightism is bouncing around full of spit and energy right behind them
Honestly yea, it annoys me. But it doesn't annoy me as much as the months and MONTHS of "yea he's bad but hillary clinton is a warmongering system toadie who *insert partial truth and some republican lies* who will bomb brown children!" from mostly progressive white dudes, to a lesser extent progressive white women, and a vanishingly few POC.
Looking over my facebook, ig, etc in the past few days the narrative was almost entirely white people talking about how sus she was and how you shouldn't do it, and brown people saying "do this for the good of the country and she's actually not that bad", or at the very least the first part. A few even called it out as a some variety of faux-lefty bullshit to not.
It's been said in this thread before, but who do you think saw that GIGANTIC TORRENT of diarrhea slurry from the right, AND the fairly huge one from the left(especially the ~hard~ left) against her, from everyone between cuckservatives and communists? What does that look like, if you're undecided or a skeptical right(or left!) voter? Most of the left is saying trump is bad, and a bit of the right is. But ALL of the right is saying clinton is bad, and a lot of the online left is too. Hell, it drove people in to secret hillary groups.
The media is to blame here too, but i don't know how i can look a lot of these piece of shit jill stein voting honkies who posted this stuff for MONTHS in the eye now. I'm not blaming this on third party voters, no, i'm placing at least some of the blame here on "leftists" who repeated the same bullshit about clinton and played the "both sides" game to seem woke.
At the very least, most of the internet groups i'm in aren't as shit as i thought because they shut the fuck up with that and are working on organizing now. But yea, i've seen a bit of the smug-fuck-neoliberalism.
But i couldn't stop chuckling, one of the only dark chuckles i got, at some of those fucks. "Ok, you broke the system, congratulations. Now what?". I also, and i'm trying to work through it, have SO little sympathy for the super duper smug lefty dudes who kept telling me "it's not like he can win anyways, he's a fake candidate, focus on how bad she is/will be".
That rhetoric doesn't go nowhere, and it didn't effect nothing. Own what you contributed to and helped achieve, shitty leftists. Especially shitty WHITE leftists in blue areas. The internet is not a neighborhood bar.
posted by emptythought at 2:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [54 favorites]
they are not going to be able to undo the New Deal. St Reagan tried and failed and Trump and the incompetent people around him will fail as well.
Reagan never had both houses of Congress; the previous time the Republicans had this was before the New Deal. Unless the current crop of Congresscritters is literally a mob of whooping, hollering drunks, they can do a lot.
As for gay marriage and Roe vs. Wade, that'd take a Supreme Court case, and chances are they'll be able to stack it with 2-3 like-minded reactionaries.
posted by acb at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reagan never had both houses of Congress; the previous time the Republicans had this was before the New Deal. Unless the current crop of Congresscritters is literally a mob of whooping, hollering drunks, they can do a lot.
As for gay marriage and Roe vs. Wade, that'd take a Supreme Court case, and chances are they'll be able to stack it with 2-3 like-minded reactionaries.
posted by acb at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am legitimately afraid that this is the beginning of the end for the U.S.
Reagan slammed the accelerator to the floor, Bush II wedged a cinderblock on top of it, Obama deftly slalomed through the obstacles, but Trump is about to steer us off the giant cliff, holding hands with the GOP, who is sitting in the passenger seat. There is no freeze-frame, unfortunately.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Reagan slammed the accelerator to the floor, Bush II wedged a cinderblock on top of it, Obama deftly slalomed through the obstacles, but Trump is about to steer us off the giant cliff, holding hands with the GOP, who is sitting in the passenger seat. There is no freeze-frame, unfortunately.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also from that Jon Schwarz article in The Intercept linked by jeffburdges above:
8. Be good to yourself and everyone else.posted by Sonny Jim at 2:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Liberals, leftists and sundry have real and profound differences. But for the foreseeable future we must hang together or we will surely hang separately, metaphorically or otherwise.
Since we’re stuck with each other, let’s be kind. In a country engineered to treat everyone horrendously every day, demonstrating that we extend real respect to one another might even be a winning recruitment strategy.
So what I am seeing in my social media feeds is a whole lot of business as usual, oh well, let's get back to normal, etc. etc.
Yeah. Which is ultimately why this shit keeps happening. Straight, non-disabled white people are Basically OK and will continue to be Basically OK barring some huge personal tragedy. Where by "Basically OK" I mean "not justifiably afraid of being rounded up into camps or placed on some kind of fucked-up X-Men-style registry".
Obviously, lots of straight, non-disabled white people have problems. Joblessness, rising costs of housing, etc., etc. And all of those problems will get worse under Trump. But they don't have the same kind of immediate, pressing fear of persecution that everybody else has. So, NBD, life goes on for them.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah. Which is ultimately why this shit keeps happening. Straight, non-disabled white people are Basically OK and will continue to be Basically OK barring some huge personal tragedy. Where by "Basically OK" I mean "not justifiably afraid of being rounded up into camps or placed on some kind of fucked-up X-Men-style registry".
Obviously, lots of straight, non-disabled white people have problems. Joblessness, rising costs of housing, etc., etc. And all of those problems will get worse under Trump. But they don't have the same kind of immediate, pressing fear of persecution that everybody else has. So, NBD, life goes on for them.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a woman, a Muslim, and an immigrant. I voted for Trump. (WaPo)
It's quite possible that many of those minorities/women who voted for Trump, or voted third party, or didn't bother to vote at all, aren't all that different from this Muslim immigrant woman. It's the "he can't possibly mean the worst of what he says", "he's just saying what plays well to his core base."
posted by Apocryphon at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's quite possible that many of those minorities/women who voted for Trump, or voted third party, or didn't bother to vote at all, aren't all that different from this Muslim immigrant woman. It's the "he can't possibly mean the worst of what he says", "he's just saying what plays well to his core base."
posted by Apocryphon at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are we allowed to take solace in the fact that Trump is, per Fox News, very anti-TPP? Stopped clocks, twice a day, and so on?
posted by emjaybee at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by emjaybee at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016
Nazi propaganda/spray paint in Massachusetts
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jill Stein weighs in
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gay Marriage will probably be safe because they know it's a losing issue.
The Supreme Court effectively reversed itself on capital punishment in under a decade.
I'm a broken record on this but the marriage thing was a bait and switch. Same-gender marriage didn't exist except for a few clerical stunts in the United States at the time that Republicans forced bans through statehouses. The marriage acts were about legalized discrimination, and a government interest to promote heterosexual marriage was the legal doctrine they relied on in order to litigate against piecemeal rights. To use a notorious example, the doctrine was used to deny hospital visitation because recognizing power of attorney was equivalent to recognizing a benefit of marriage, and that was forbidden under Florida law.
Now, it's unlikely that the courts will entertain an interest to promote heterosexual marriage argument immediately. They probably will entertain a religious liberty argument. And that might give Republicans what they've really wanted: freedom to discriminate.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Supreme Court effectively reversed itself on capital punishment in under a decade.
I'm a broken record on this but the marriage thing was a bait and switch. Same-gender marriage didn't exist except for a few clerical stunts in the United States at the time that Republicans forced bans through statehouses. The marriage acts were about legalized discrimination, and a government interest to promote heterosexual marriage was the legal doctrine they relied on in order to litigate against piecemeal rights. To use a notorious example, the doctrine was used to deny hospital visitation because recognizing power of attorney was equivalent to recognizing a benefit of marriage, and that was forbidden under Florida law.
Now, it's unlikely that the courts will entertain an interest to promote heterosexual marriage argument immediately. They probably will entertain a religious liberty argument. And that might give Republicans what they've really wanted: freedom to discriminate.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
If anybody missed it, the Dakota Access pipeline operators chose yesterday to bury the news that they're going to go ahead with drilling under the Missouri river, with the project due to start within two weeks.
Oh. I did miss this, and I think a lot of the people I know that care about the DAPL did too. Thanks for mentioning.
I guess this is really what we have to look forward to, more than anything. More industries fucking over people of color with no chance of regulation, and the general populace not even noticing (Flint still does not have clean water).
posted by dinty_moore at 2:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh. I did miss this, and I think a lot of the people I know that care about the DAPL did too. Thanks for mentioning.
I guess this is really what we have to look forward to, more than anything. More industries fucking over people of color with no chance of regulation, and the general populace not even noticing (Flint still does not have clean water).
posted by dinty_moore at 2:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Go with God but go, Jill.
posted by ocschwar at 2:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 2:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
@ShaunKing #Charlotte "@dakotainthecity
I found this under my windshield wiper at my own house. I'm in disbelief"
"Hey N----r. Pick that up. Keep my streets clean," said the emboldened white Trump supporter to this Black woman in Indiana.
Pride flags are being burned in Rochester
RPD and RFD are investigating as arson
Vandals Spray ‘Trump 2016’ Over Message of Unity in East Haddam, CT
Racist USPS worked "you ain't gettin your check no more"
I'm running out of faith in humanity.
posted by Talez at 2:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
I found this under my windshield wiper at my own house. I'm in disbelief"
"Hey N----r. Pick that up. Keep my streets clean," said the emboldened white Trump supporter to this Black woman in Indiana.
Pride flags are being burned in Rochester
RPD and RFD are investigating as arson
Vandals Spray ‘Trump 2016’ Over Message of Unity in East Haddam, CT
Racist USPS worked "you ain't gettin your check no more"
I'm running out of faith in humanity.
posted by Talez at 2:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Jill Stein's communications director.
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Are we allowed to take solace in the fact that Trump is, per Fox News, very anti-TPP?
I suspect Obama will work on little other than getting TPP finished in the next two months, because that's what... somebody must want.
posted by rokusan at 2:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect Obama will work on little other than getting TPP finished in the next two months, because that's what... somebody must want.
posted by rokusan at 2:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
In 200 years the only thing that's going to matter is that we had a chance to stop the climate from going off the cliff and instead we put the accelerator through the goddamn floor. Cities will be abandoned, coastlines will disappear, countries will drown. Mass extinctions. Famine. Refugees by the millions and wars of survival. It's the worst thing we've ever done, maybe the worst thing we could ever do.
posted by theodolite at 2:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 2:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
I like it. Dennis gets a cookie.
posted by telepanda at 2:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by telepanda at 2:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
@emptythought – one of the best comments I have ever read. Props to your pops.
...i left my debit card at the bar and woke up to my dad at the door of my place going "get the fuck up and go to work, you need money for the apocalypse"
posted by nickrussell at 2:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
...i left my debit card at the bar and woke up to my dad at the door of my place going "get the fuck up and go to work, you need money for the apocalypse"
posted by nickrussell at 2:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
but Zach had more to say.
circle up, brothers and sisters! time to fight the real enemy!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:28 PM on November 10, 2016
circle up, brothers and sisters! time to fight the real enemy!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:28 PM on November 10, 2016
because that's what... somebody must want.
Taiwan's pro-independence party president expressed interest in joining TPP. Probably because they wanted to rely less on Mainland China and more on US and its allies, for both economic and strategic reasons.
posted by FJT at 2:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Taiwan's pro-independence party president expressed interest in joining TPP. Probably because they wanted to rely less on Mainland China and more on US and its allies, for both economic and strategic reasons.
posted by FJT at 2:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I haven't been able to find any sources yet* to tell for absolute certain for House & Senate, but it is certain or almost certain that:
One lesson, though, is that 0.5% majorities aren't good enough. Not even 2-3% majorities. If Democrats really want to run things, their majority needs to be in the 5-6% range, at minimum.
*If anyone knows a source for House & Senate popular vote totals available in a way that would make them easy to download or copy/paste in order to calculate national popular vote totals I would be very interested in this.
posted by flug at 2:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
- Democrats won a majority of popular votes in the Presidential election
- Democrats won a majority of popular votes in the House election
- Democrats won a majority of popular votes in the Senate election
One lesson, though, is that 0.5% majorities aren't good enough. Not even 2-3% majorities. If Democrats really want to run things, their majority needs to be in the 5-6% range, at minimum.
*If anyone knows a source for House & Senate popular vote totals available in a way that would make them easy to download or copy/paste in order to calculate national popular vote totals I would be very interested in this.
posted by flug at 2:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
So long story short incrementalism is going to limit their ability to do too much damage. Yes there will be a lot of people hurt by this but they are not going to be able to undo the New Deal. St Reagan tried and failed and Trump and the incompetent people around him will fail as well.
There will be a lot of people killed and a lot of people who kill themselves. I would appreciate us understanding and clearly stating that instead of saying "hurt". Because for a lot of people "hurt" would be an enjoyable preference over the fate that been handed to them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
There will be a lot of people killed and a lot of people who kill themselves. I would appreciate us understanding and clearly stating that instead of saying "hurt". Because for a lot of people "hurt" would be an enjoyable preference over the fate that been handed to them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
A thread or two back, roughly 4,000 of your Earth-thread years, someone mentioned the BBC show detectorists. Thank you.
The show's theme song is decidedly minor-key hopeful, and somehow medieval in an acoustic-guitar-and-violin way, sort of a bluegrass ballad at 80bpm.
This fine fellow teaches you how to play it. Like the woman who baked a cake after 9/11, I think that's what I'll do. That's my cake.
posted by petebest at 2:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The show's theme song is decidedly minor-key hopeful, and somehow medieval in an acoustic-guitar-and-violin way, sort of a bluegrass ballad at 80bpm.
This fine fellow teaches you how to play it. Like the woman who baked a cake after 9/11, I think that's what I'll do. That's my cake.
posted by petebest at 2:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wonderful photo of HIllary walking her dog today. Hope she's hanging in there.
posted by acidic at 2:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by acidic at 2:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Taiwan's pro-independence party president expressed interest in joining TPP. Probably because they wanted to rely less on Mainland China and more on US and its allies, for both economic and strategic reasons.
Maybe Trump will craft a deal of his own. Or his attitude towards South Korea and East Asia in general will cause Japan/RoK/Taiwan to form their own pact.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe Trump will craft a deal of his own. Or his attitude towards South Korea and East Asia in general will cause Japan/RoK/Taiwan to form their own pact.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
All of you people who are saying things won't be too bad, try visiting Shaun King's Twitter feed to see how Trump's election has turned red hats into the new brown shirts, come back and tell me that.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 2:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Onion: How To Talk To Your Child About The Election Results:
Remind them that one day when they’re older, they’ll understand all of this a lot better and will get to decide for themselves whether or not they should forgive us.posted by palindromic at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
Acquaint your daughter with the word “motherfucker” to equip her for what lies ahead.
So reached a sort of impasse with white dude friend (and his friend) on FB:
He says:
1. It's bad to call Trump voters racist, because
2. It sounds like I'm saying my side is all rainbows and light (and I suspect, because it Hurts Feelings and Makes Them Uncomfortable)
My response: the policies they say they promote, their stated positions, will hurt people I care about (all of us really but I didn't go into that). Could he say I was wrong to stand with them and care?
The responses boiled down to:
Guy 1: Obama hurt people too! Now we get to feel how Republicans felt for last 8 years while Obama subverted everything the country used to stand for! Also his friend had his ACA rates go up.
--hoo boy. This was revealing to me. There's your politics of resentment coupled with "not understanding the whole ACA thing." I didn't respond to this one (also this was the guy who was all YOU WANT TO KILL BABIES so there was only so far we could go.)
Guy 2: Trump is unpredictable! Who knows if he will actually hurt people? He might be more progressive than you think!
---Well, ok, granted, he is unpredictable, but talk about putting a shine on a turd. I could only respond that I hoped he was right, and I do, but that's a really tiny hope.
Anyway, I'm oddly glad I engaged this time.
posted by emjaybee at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
He says:
1. It's bad to call Trump voters racist, because
2. It sounds like I'm saying my side is all rainbows and light (and I suspect, because it Hurts Feelings and Makes Them Uncomfortable)
My response: the policies they say they promote, their stated positions, will hurt people I care about (all of us really but I didn't go into that). Could he say I was wrong to stand with them and care?
The responses boiled down to:
Guy 1: Obama hurt people too! Now we get to feel how Republicans felt for last 8 years while Obama subverted everything the country used to stand for! Also his friend had his ACA rates go up.
--hoo boy. This was revealing to me. There's your politics of resentment coupled with "not understanding the whole ACA thing." I didn't respond to this one (also this was the guy who was all YOU WANT TO KILL BABIES so there was only so far we could go.)
Guy 2: Trump is unpredictable! Who knows if he will actually hurt people? He might be more progressive than you think!
---Well, ok, granted, he is unpredictable, but talk about putting a shine on a turd. I could only respond that I hoped he was right, and I do, but that's a really tiny hope.
Anyway, I'm oddly glad I engaged this time.
posted by emjaybee at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm a woman, a Muslim, and an immigrant. I voted for Trump. (WaPo)
I read this. And it's so incoherent, so lacking in critical reasoning, so petty, so stupid. And it includes this whopper:
posted by dis_integration at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
I read this. And it's so incoherent, so lacking in critical reasoning, so petty, so stupid. And it includes this whopper:
I wrote that as a child of India, arriving in the United States at the age of 4 in the summer of 1969, I have absolutely no fears about being a Muslim in a “Trump America.” The checks and balances in America and our rich history of social justice and civil rights will never allow the fear-mongering that has been attached to candidate Trump’s rhetoric to come to fruition.Just. no. You're deluded, lady. You're blind.
posted by dis_integration at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
My one light note of the day is that Egg just send an email saying he's going to keep up the fight for "equality, freedom, liberty, and inclusiveness" and try and build a new conservative movement. Silly as it may sound right now, it actually feels pretty good to hear that there are at least a few conservatives out there who aren't okay with what's happened either. Lord knows he isn't likely to find many willing listeners for the time being, but Godspeed Evan McMullin, keep up the good work, and I wouldn't even mind right now if you are still connected to the CIA.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 2:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
> We're all in Brownback's Kansas now.
For any of you who haven't been following Kansas news lately, the state now officially has the worst economy in the nation. The blame can be laid completely at the feet of Brownback's tax proposals & related tax cuts.
The situation is so bad that Kansas has actually stopped publishing its annual economic report online due to fears that it is "confusing" (ie, that it shows that KS's economy is cratering).
Despite that fact the Brownback called the tax cuts an "experiment" and the experience has showed very, very clearly that the approach doesn't work to stimulate the economy, doesn't work to generate more tax dollars (the promise is the fewer taxes will make the economy grow, thus bringing in more tax revenue even though the tax rate is lower), and is disastrous for the state in a large number of ways, Brownback and his supporters have shown no willingness to change or back down.
This is just one of many disastrous "experiments" we have to look forward to on a nationwide basis now . . .
posted by flug at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
For any of you who haven't been following Kansas news lately, the state now officially has the worst economy in the nation. The blame can be laid completely at the feet of Brownback's tax proposals & related tax cuts.
The situation is so bad that Kansas has actually stopped publishing its annual economic report online due to fears that it is "confusing" (ie, that it shows that KS's economy is cratering).
Despite that fact the Brownback called the tax cuts an "experiment" and the experience has showed very, very clearly that the approach doesn't work to stimulate the economy, doesn't work to generate more tax dollars (the promise is the fewer taxes will make the economy grow, thus bringing in more tax revenue even though the tax rate is lower), and is disastrous for the state in a large number of ways, Brownback and his supporters have shown no willingness to change or back down.
This is just one of many disastrous "experiments" we have to look forward to on a nationwide basis now . . .
posted by flug at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
I read this. And it's so incoherent, so lacking in critical reasoning, so petty, so stupid.
Also, it's a "fun" shot/chaser to read her frustration with Obama not saying the magic words "Islamic terrorism" and then today's ISIS press release declaring that Trump's election proves America is making war on Islam and all good Muslims (by which they mean Sunnis, natch) must immediately join their cause and fight back. Gee, I wonder what reaction Obama was worried about provoking by tarring all of Islam with that brush.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, it's a "fun" shot/chaser to read her frustration with Obama not saying the magic words "Islamic terrorism" and then today's ISIS press release declaring that Trump's election proves America is making war on Islam and all good Muslims (by which they mean Sunnis, natch) must immediately join their cause and fight back. Gee, I wonder what reaction Obama was worried about provoking by tarring all of Islam with that brush.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I like Elizabeth Warren quite a lot, and I spent much of the past few years wishing she'd run, too. But she's really never expressed much desire to do it, and without that burning desire, I doubt she or anyone would have succeeded, especially in this pressure cooker of a year. (See also Biden, Joey Wheels.)
At least this way she's still in a position to help resist a very empowered Republican government. A little, anyway. Small, small silver linings.
posted by rokusan at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
At least this way she's still in a position to help resist a very empowered Republican government. A little, anyway. Small, small silver linings.
posted by rokusan at 2:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know any more about Evan McMullin than anyone else who never heard his name until a few weeks ago, but yeah, it is sort of refreshing to hear "conservative party" and "inclusive" in the same sentence, so that's nice.
posted by rokusan at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rokusan at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe Trump will craft a deal of his own. Or his attitude towards South Korea and East Asia in general will cause Japan/RoK/Taiwan to form their own pact.
With Clinton as president I was more okay with letting TPP slip, because she would honor the TRA. With Donald, I honestly have no answer. If Russia wanted Donald as president because then they could have better control of their sphere of influence (like Ukraine and the Baltics), does the same hold for Mainland China?
I can easily imagine Donald gleefully threatening China and then turning around and giving a "great deal" on military hardware to Taiwan, not to mention Korea and Japan. Then going back to the people of the US and saying how proud he is that he got those freeloaders to pay for their defense.
posted by FJT at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2016
With Clinton as president I was more okay with letting TPP slip, because she would honor the TRA. With Donald, I honestly have no answer. If Russia wanted Donald as president because then they could have better control of their sphere of influence (like Ukraine and the Baltics), does the same hold for Mainland China?
I can easily imagine Donald gleefully threatening China and then turning around and giving a "great deal" on military hardware to Taiwan, not to mention Korea and Japan. Then going back to the people of the US and saying how proud he is that he got those freeloaders to pay for their defense.
posted by FJT at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2016
>
No, the rationale is notably different from that in her case and others:
This is something I've encountered in several other people while discussing Trump: the idea that the way fascism/totalitarianism would be stopped from taking over in the U.S. is that we put the guy who has explicitly outlined such plans in control of the executive government, the surveillance state, the nuclear arsenal, the military, and national law enforcement first, and then afterwards, if it turns out that he meant what he said, he would be stopped in some handwavy way that involves righteousness and the Constitution, as though it's some sort of magical talisman.
posted by XMLicious at 2:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
I'm a woman, a Muslim, and an immigrant. I voted for Trump. (WaPo)
It's quite possible that many of those minorities/women who voted for Trump, or voted third party, or didn't bother to vote at all, aren't all that different from this Muslim immigrant woman. It's the "he can't possibly mean the worst of what he says", "he's just saying what plays well to his core base."
No, the rationale is notably different from that in her case and others:
I wrote that as a child of India, arriving in the United States at the age of 4 in the summer of 1969, I have absolutely no fears about being a Muslim in a “Trump America.” The checks and balances in America and our rich history of social justice and civil rights will never allow the fear-mongering that has been attached to candidate Trump’s rhetoric to come to fruition.She thinks that regardless of whether or not he means the things he's said, the circumstances that existed in the U.S. in the year she was born—when the Democratic Party of Alabama still had the phrase "White Supremacy" in its logo—can never return.
This is something I've encountered in several other people while discussing Trump: the idea that the way fascism/totalitarianism would be stopped from taking over in the U.S. is that we put the guy who has explicitly outlined such plans in control of the executive government, the surveillance state, the nuclear arsenal, the military, and national law enforcement first, and then afterwards, if it turns out that he meant what he said, he would be stopped in some handwavy way that involves righteousness and the Constitution, as though it's some sort of magical talisman.
posted by XMLicious at 2:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [36 favorites]
How, where, when did we go wrong?
1492, white men got off a boat, decided they owned the continent they landed on by accident
posted by poffin boffin at 2:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [65 favorites]
1492, white men got off a boat, decided they owned the continent they landed on by accident
posted by poffin boffin at 2:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [65 favorites]
I teach at a majority-minority public college. Yesterday, everytime I went into a women's restroom, there was someone crying. Today, a white man spent the day walking around our campus with a large American flag and a handmade t-shirt that read "Let's build the fucking wall". This is not okay.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 2:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
As president, Trump may become Trumpier.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 2:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump's White Nationalist Backers Train Their Eyes On Elected Office, Admin Posts:
In the wake of Donald Trump’s upset presidential win, the small yet vocal cohort of white nationalists who supported his campaign are refocusing their efforts from trolling liberals online to running for elected office.posted by palindromic at 2:50 PM on November 10, 2016
Their reasoning: If a candidate who appealed to the tide of anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim sentiment surging on the country’s right could win over voters, why not one who is openly "pro-white"?
“I have been very surprised that we have not seen attractive, well-spoken, racially aware candidates running for local office,” Jared Taylor, head of the white nationalist American Renaissance publication and annual conference, told TPM in a Wednesday phone call. “I think this will be inevitable, and I think that Trump will have encouraged this. That our people will run for school board, city council, mayor, all that I anticipate certainly.”
I read this. And it's so incoherent, so lacking in critical reasoning, so petty, so stupid.
She's also a WSJ columnist, I suspect she's like Ayan Hirsi Ali or Walid Shoebat, either apostates from Islam or "moderate" Muslims who make a living writing books and giving interviews that feed into Western preconceptions of Islamophobia.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
She's also a WSJ columnist, I suspect she's like Ayan Hirsi Ali or Walid Shoebat, either apostates from Islam or "moderate" Muslims who make a living writing books and giving interviews that feed into Western preconceptions of Islamophobia.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:51 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
his best chance to be remembered as a hugely popular and surprisingly effective president is to pivot crazy hard to the center and be way less racist, destructive, and horrible than we all fearedIIRC his style of business negotiation was the cliched "if you want the moon ask for the stars", so if it was just him vs the liberals and the moderates then I could definitely see his behavior ending up much more moderate than his campaign, his "initial bid".
This seems less plausible when you remember that it's not "just him", it's "just him and his supporters", and even if his Vice President can't remember what Trump's said, they can, many of them are looking forward to it, and he won't have any fans left if he goes back on it. I don't think he'll let a love of honesty prevent that, but love of popularity might stop him.
posted by roystgnr at 2:51 PM on November 10, 2016
Warren Warns Trump: Democrats Won't Tolerate Bigotry, Deregulation:
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) struck a defiant tone in her first speech after the Tuesday victory of President-elect Donald Trump, criticizing him for targeting minorities and saying she would fight the Republican Party “every step of the way” if it tried to de-regulate Wall Street under an imagined mandate.posted by palindromic at 2:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
In remarks to the AFL-CIO Executive Council in Washington, D.C. on Thursday, Warren said that the presidential election had been “ugly.”
“And we should not sugarcoat the reason why,” she said, according to a Boston Globe transcript of the speech. “Donald Trump ran a campaign that started with racial attacks and then rode the escalator down.”
Warren said that Trump’s victory made Latino and Muslim-American children “worried about what will happen to their families,” and LGBT couples “worried that their marriages could be dissolved.”
One thing I have learned is I am not looking at thinkpieces or listening to pundits. I listened to all the podcasts and read all the posts and everyone was wrong, wrong, wrong. I have no idea if Trump will be Trumpier or like Obama or whatever. I do know all his minions are terrible though.
posted by zutalors! at 2:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 2:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
How, where, when did we go wrong?
"Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans."
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
"Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans."
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
How, where, when did we go wrong?
1492, white men got off a boat, decided they owned the continent they landed on by accident
posted by poffin boffin at 2:47 PM on November 10 [+] [!]
1781. The wrong side wins at Yorktown.
1877. After a long, grueling guerrilla campaign, the Union finally loses the Civil War when Rutherford B. Hayes surrenders to the slaver Confederacy and withdraws United States troops from the south.
2000. The obvious.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
1492, white men got off a boat, decided they owned the continent they landed on by accident
posted by poffin boffin at 2:47 PM on November 10 [+] [!]
1781. The wrong side wins at Yorktown.
1877. After a long, grueling guerrilla campaign, the Union finally loses the Civil War when Rutherford B. Hayes surrenders to the slaver Confederacy and withdraws United States troops from the south.
2000. The obvious.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just died a little inside, but I needed to do this:
Judgment at Nuremberg, updated:
ERNST JANNING
Judgment at Nuremberg, updated:
"in order to understand it, one must understand the period in which it happened.posted by mikelieman at 3:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
There was a fever over the land, a fever of disgrace, of indignity, of hunger. We had a democracy, yes, but it was torn by elements within. Above all there was fear, fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbors, and fear of ourselves. Only when you understand that can you understand what [Trump] meant to us, because he said to us:
"Lift your heads. Be proud to be [American]. There are devils among us, [Muslims], liberals, Jews, [Mexicans]. Once these devils will be destroyed your misery will be destroyed."
It was the old, old story of the sacrificial lamb.
What about those of us who knew better, we who knew the words were lies and worse than lies? Why did we sit silent? Why did we take part? Because we loved our country. What difference does it make if a few political extremists lose their rights? What difference does it make if a few racial minorities lose their rights? It is only a passing phase. It is only a stage we are going through. It will be discarded sooner or later. [Trump] himself will be discarded -- sooner or later. The country is in danger. We will march out of the shadows! We will go forward. FORWARD is the great password.
And history tells how well we succeeded, Your Honor. We succeeded beyond out wildest dreams. The very elements of hate and power about [Trump] that mesmerized [The United States], mesmerized the world."
Trump Immigration Adviser Spoke at White Nationalist Group Conference
Kris Kobach from Kansas, seriously.
posted by airish at 3:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Kris Kobach from Kansas, seriously.
posted by airish at 3:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
How, where, when did we go wrong?
Several hundred million years ago. A fish looks up and thinks "Hey! I wonder what it's like up there, where the light is?"
posted by Grangousier at 3:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Several hundred million years ago. A fish looks up and thinks "Hey! I wonder what it's like up there, where the light is?"
posted by Grangousier at 3:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
if only alfred had been slightly less great it could be thorsday today
posted by poffin boffin at 3:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 3:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Imagine if Trump gets charged for one of his many misdeeds and has a bail hearing. "The accused is President-elect and is therefore a flight risk."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Given that he's quite possibly a Russian spy, he may already have failed security clearance.
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Re: Keith Ellison as DNC chair, of course it's good from the perspective of having a strong progressive and a Muslim in charge of the party, but it's also notable that he predicted Trump could be successful back when everyone else was laughing at the possibility. Maybe it was just an offhand "anything could happen" comment, not a sign that he has some supernatural ability to read the mind of the electorate, but with so many in the party and the greater public underestimating Trump, it's probably good to have the party led by someone who was right about him early on.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Trump bucks protocol on press access
WASHINGTON (AP) — President-elect Donald Trump is keeping America in the dark about his earliest conversations and decisions about his incoming government, and bucking a long-standing practice intended to ensure the public has a watchful eye on the nation's new leader.posted by tonycpsu at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
Trump on Thursday refused to allow journalists to travel with him to Washington for his historic first meeting with President Barack Obama and congressional leaders. The Republican's top advisers rebuffed news organizations' requests for a small "pool" of journalists to trail Trump as he attended meetings Washington.
The decision was part of an opaque pattern in Trump's first moves since his victory Tuesday. Trump was entirely out of sight on Wednesday. His aides said he was huddled with advisers at his offices in New York. His team has not put out a daily schedule, or offered any detailed updates on how he has spent his time. They have not acknowledged phone calls or other contact with world leaders.
When Russian President Vladimir Putin sent a congratulatory telegram to Trump on Wednesday, Moscow spread the word. A phone call with British Prime Minster Theresa May was announced in London. The pattern was repeated for calls with leaders of Israel, Egypt, South Korea and Australia.
The White House typically releases statements on the president's phone calls with foreign leaders, providing some details about the conversation. Past presidents-elect have had early briefings with journalists, even in confusing first hours after Election Day.
But early signs suggest Trump is willing to break protocol when it comes to press access and transparency.
IANAL but a president cannot fail a security, Grangousier. In fact, I vaguely though security clearances exist through executive order, like almost an extension of executive privilege, not sure.
I suspect that, if a president wanted to clean house at the CIA, NSA, FBI, contractors, etc. very quickly, then he could simply revoke all the undesirables' clearances. All those people would still be employed by the federal government or their contractor, but they could no longer enter their office or handle classified materials. I doubt there would be any recourse for those whose clearances were revoked. And maybe their clearances could be revoked in a way that future administrations cannot easily rehire them.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I suspect that, if a president wanted to clean house at the CIA, NSA, FBI, contractors, etc. very quickly, then he could simply revoke all the undesirables' clearances. All those people would still be employed by the federal government or their contractor, but they could no longer enter their office or handle classified materials. I doubt there would be any recourse for those whose clearances were revoked. And maybe their clearances could be revoked in a way that future administrations cannot easily rehire them.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
racially aware
Is that what they're calling it now, huh.
posted by emjaybee at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is that what they're calling it now, huh.
posted by emjaybee at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Given that he's quite possibly a Russian spy, he may already have failed security clearance.
The power to classify or declassify documents literally stems from his office, as well as the power to determine who gets to see those docs. We the American people are supposed to vet him before entrusting our national secrets to him, not the security apparatus. This is a good thing! You do not want any group to be able to determine what the president has access to!
posted by muddgirl at 3:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The power to classify or declassify documents literally stems from his office, as well as the power to determine who gets to see those docs. We the American people are supposed to vet him before entrusting our national secrets to him, not the security apparatus. This is a good thing! You do not want any group to be able to determine what the president has access to!
posted by muddgirl at 3:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
But early signs suggest Trump is willing to break protocol when it comes to press access and transparency.
Trump has already broken protocol about transparency - his tax reports are still unknown. I am not surprised at all that he plans to run the presidency like a closed board meeting, issuing pronouncements and then ducking back into a room to talk with advisors of his choice.
However, he can't force the secret service to sign NDAs, and at some point he's going to have to choose between safety and secrecy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Trump has already broken protocol about transparency - his tax reports are still unknown. I am not surprised at all that he plans to run the presidency like a closed board meeting, issuing pronouncements and then ducking back into a room to talk with advisors of his choice.
However, he can't force the secret service to sign NDAs, and at some point he's going to have to choose between safety and secrecy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:15 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Is that what they're calling it now, huh.
I'm sure he meant to say 'economically insecure.'
posted by palindromic at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm sure he meant to say 'economically insecure.'
posted by palindromic at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
NPR just featured an interesting (and chilling, and infuriating) story about the Brigade app, An App Saw Trump Winning Swing States When Polls Didn't, which includes:
Of Brigade's verified voters, 40 percent of registered Democrats pledged to vote for Trump. . . . In states with outcomes that didn't match the polling results (i.e., Trump did better than expected), Brigade saw white women registered as Democrats pledge their vote to Trump at a much greater rate (170 percent) than the country as a whole.posted by FelliniBlank at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
We the American people are supposed to vet him before entrusting our national secrets to him, not the security apparatus. This is a good thing! You do not want any group to be able to determine what the president has access to!
we did a shit job at this
I don't want to be people anymore, we are awful.
posted by zutalors! at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
we did a shit job at this
I don't want to be people anymore, we are awful.
posted by zutalors! at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Hundreds of pundits made all kinds of comments about the election a year ago. The fact that a few of them predicted Trump could go all the way is not by itself very good evidence that those people were more insightful or had better information than the rest of us.
posted by straight at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by straight at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
We the American people are supposed to vet him before entrusting our national secrets to him, not the security apparatus.
Yes, of course.
Shall we carry on peeling the layers from this gigantic onion made entirely out of shit?
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yes, of course.
Shall we carry on peeling the layers from this gigantic onion made entirely out of shit?
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
The past year has been terrifying. I mean, I'm not that old, but I grew up in a time and place where people of different skin colour could not marry. Black people couldn't be Doctors or own businesses in white areas. They had shit schools, were segregated and subjugated.
Our maid brought the roof of her home to our house (she stayed at ours while working and went back to her 'homeland' at weekends). Her roof was a bit of tarpaulin and she was afraid it would get stolen. I was a 13 year old kid at the time and was called boss and sir by pretty much every black man who talked to me.
My family were called k****r lovers by neighbours because my mum opened a black hairdressers . White person cutting black hair, disgraceful.
This was only 25 years ago. It can easily happen again.
Things are not OK right now. Brexit in the UK is emboldening the white extremists as will Trump in the US. Le Pen will probably do very well in France. Things are far from OK.
posted by twistedonion at 3:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Our maid brought the roof of her home to our house (she stayed at ours while working and went back to her 'homeland' at weekends). Her roof was a bit of tarpaulin and she was afraid it would get stolen. I was a 13 year old kid at the time and was called boss and sir by pretty much every black man who talked to me.
My family were called k****r lovers by neighbours because my mum opened a black hairdressers . White person cutting black hair, disgraceful.
This was only 25 years ago. It can easily happen again.
Things are not OK right now. Brexit in the UK is emboldening the white extremists as will Trump in the US. Le Pen will probably do very well in France. Things are far from OK.
posted by twistedonion at 3:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Welcome to Trump's America: 58 reports of people bullied by emboldened bigots — and the list is growing: (warning: auto-play video somewhere on the page, lots of images and stories of people being terrible)
posted by palindromic at 3:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 3:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bill McKibben: Trump's Presidency Comes When the Warming World Can Least Afford It
posted by homunculus at 3:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 3:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
early signs suggest Trump is willing to break protocol when it comes to press access and transparency
...and I need to peace out. I'm gonna keep an autodonate on to Planned Parenthood and ACLU, and hunker down in my own private I-don't-know.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
...and I need to peace out. I'm gonna keep an autodonate on to Planned Parenthood and ACLU, and hunker down in my own private I-don't-know.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can easily imagine Donald gleefully threatening China and then turning around and giving a "great deal" on military hardware to Taiwan, not to mention Korea and Japan. Then going back to the people of the US and saying how proud he is that he got those freeloaders to pay for their defense.
The New Bloom: What Does The Trump Presidency Mean For Taiwan And The Asia Pacific?
Yet where Taiwan is concerned, putting all one’s eggs into only the basket of the United States as a security guarantee against China is now reaping unexpected consequences with a Trump victory. America was hardly a reliable partner from the onset, given that America backed authoritarian rule by the KMT for so many decades during the martial law era and has been happy to keep Taiwan in the political limbo since it switched political recognition from the Republic of China to the People’s Republic of China. But the consequences of a Trump presidency on Taiwan may actually be the logical outcome from pro-Taiwan political actors becoming wholly dependent on America as the sole guarantor of Taiwanese security against China, seeing as America can now no longer be depended upon, period.
If the Tsai administration is intelligent, it will try to secure stronger ties with regional powers similarly caught between America and China, and who are now also caught in a dilemma with the rise of Trump making America an unreliable partner. Apart from South Korea and Japan, which face a similar quandary as East Asian countries strongly dependent on American security guarantees who may be left out in the cold under a Trump presidency, this may make the Tsai administration’s “New Southwards Policy” aimed at cementing political and economic ties with Southeast Asian countries to wean Taiwan off of economic dependence from China more urgent than ever.
Unfortunately, the New Southwards Policy has run into complications in recent months. And there would seem to now be need for Taiwan not to wean itself off of dependence of China—but also America. America can no longer be counted on under a Trump presidency and Taiwan will need to find allies elsewhere. Some have suggested that Taiwan taking action independent of the United States could be more dangerous than not, seeing as this removes Taiwan from the umbrella of American influence over its political decisions, and could lead to some bad choices. But that may be the only option for Taiwan. Taiwan could only count on itself to defend its sovereignty from the beginning, anyhow. The same is true of other Asia Pacific countries caught between America and China, seeing as China will only seek to take over America’s role of regional hegemony. Now may be the time for such countries to unite. The path is fraught.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The New Bloom: What Does The Trump Presidency Mean For Taiwan And The Asia Pacific?
Yet where Taiwan is concerned, putting all one’s eggs into only the basket of the United States as a security guarantee against China is now reaping unexpected consequences with a Trump victory. America was hardly a reliable partner from the onset, given that America backed authoritarian rule by the KMT for so many decades during the martial law era and has been happy to keep Taiwan in the political limbo since it switched political recognition from the Republic of China to the People’s Republic of China. But the consequences of a Trump presidency on Taiwan may actually be the logical outcome from pro-Taiwan political actors becoming wholly dependent on America as the sole guarantor of Taiwanese security against China, seeing as America can now no longer be depended upon, period.
If the Tsai administration is intelligent, it will try to secure stronger ties with regional powers similarly caught between America and China, and who are now also caught in a dilemma with the rise of Trump making America an unreliable partner. Apart from South Korea and Japan, which face a similar quandary as East Asian countries strongly dependent on American security guarantees who may be left out in the cold under a Trump presidency, this may make the Tsai administration’s “New Southwards Policy” aimed at cementing political and economic ties with Southeast Asian countries to wean Taiwan off of economic dependence from China more urgent than ever.
Unfortunately, the New Southwards Policy has run into complications in recent months. And there would seem to now be need for Taiwan not to wean itself off of dependence of China—but also America. America can no longer be counted on under a Trump presidency and Taiwan will need to find allies elsewhere. Some have suggested that Taiwan taking action independent of the United States could be more dangerous than not, seeing as this removes Taiwan from the umbrella of American influence over its political decisions, and could lead to some bad choices. But that may be the only option for Taiwan. Taiwan could only count on itself to defend its sovereignty from the beginning, anyhow. The same is true of other Asia Pacific countries caught between America and China, seeing as China will only seek to take over America’s role of regional hegemony. Now may be the time for such countries to unite. The path is fraught.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd like to thank President Trump for solving the Global Brain Drain problem that has been such an intractable issue for the developing world for the last several decades.
posted by BinGregory at 3:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by BinGregory at 3:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
I can't get through even half of Shaun King's list without wanting to vomit. I had to stop because I was feeling an anxiety attack coming on. Day One, guys, Day One.
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
What I can't figure out is how the writers of The Walking Dead knew how election day was gonna go ahead of time to write it into this years season premiere.
posted by valkane at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by valkane at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton, for all her flaws, was miles and miles a better candidate and person, and her loss says less about her than the voting public.
If she lost to Jeb!, Rubio, even Cruz, there'd be a better base for the "We just need better candidates" argument. But her loss to Trump speaks to ugly, ugly social beliefs about (A) women and our proper place, and (B) what anyone is allowed to say about race and equality. Because in a world without those effects, that shitheel would've lost to a dustbin.
I cannot favorite this hard enough. It is gobsmacking that conservative and superconservative and evangelical Republicans could bring themselves to vote for this hideous man. It's mind-boggling that moderate Republicans and centrist independents could. IT IS OUTRAGEOUS AND A PROFOUND BETRAYAL OF BASIC CORE VALUES
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [57 favorites]
If she lost to Jeb!, Rubio, even Cruz, there'd be a better base for the "We just need better candidates" argument. But her loss to Trump speaks to ugly, ugly social beliefs about (A) women and our proper place, and (B) what anyone is allowed to say about race and equality. Because in a world without those effects, that shitheel would've lost to a dustbin.
I cannot favorite this hard enough. It is gobsmacking that conservative and superconservative and evangelical Republicans could bring themselves to vote for this hideous man. It's mind-boggling that moderate Republicans and centrist independents could. IT IS OUTRAGEOUS AND A PROFOUND BETRAYAL OF BASIC CORE VALUES
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [57 favorites]
So I posted that Day 1 roundup on my facebook, asking my friends who voted for Trump what they're personally planning on doing to stop this, since they normalized it and gave it a mandate. So far I've gotten two responses - both of them essentially saying these were "agents provocateurs" and/or fake. One of them was Jewish.
I am out. I am done.
posted by Mchelly at 3:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
I am out. I am done.
posted by Mchelly at 3:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
(sorry, accidental too soon post) that anyone to the left of those groups would vote for him. These are not "Reagan Democrats" -- they are quislings.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm starting to believe that Kanye West and/or Ron Perlman running might actually be feasible, if we're all still alive and Trump is running for reelection in 2020.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 3:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't get through even half of Shaun King's list without wanting to vomit.
This happened to me too earlier and I did have to stop for a while and go back after I had stopped crying. I cant bring myself to watch network news to find out but I do wonder if this hate-crime/intimidation/what-the-fuck-have-you-done-to-the-children stuff is going to get even a second of coverage.
I assume not. Which makes me feel sicker yet.
posted by Golem XIV at 3:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
This happened to me too earlier and I did have to stop for a while and go back after I had stopped crying. I cant bring myself to watch network news to find out but I do wonder if this hate-crime/intimidation/what-the-fuck-have-you-done-to-the-children stuff is going to get even a second of coverage.
I assume not. Which makes me feel sicker yet.
posted by Golem XIV at 3:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
A Modest Proposal Regarding Some New Educational Reforms
Trump's success this election has led me, as an educator, to realize we need to change three major things to our education system in order to better prepare our children for Trump's America. They are hard things that acknowledge the direction our country is going.
I suggest these things soberly, modestly and after much thought.
First, we must teach our children to be better and more effective liars.
Our president-elect succeeded without needing to tell the truth. Indeed, the truth would have actively hindered his campaign. There is no longer much value in truth as a public commodity. Students need to learn how to lie in ways that best benefit them personally - ideally, starting at home, but also in schools and churches. They should be punished for telling the truth about anything until they learn to lie about even the most innocuous things - like sports scores or whether they flushed the toilet or not. This also teaches them not to trust anyone else since they can just assume everyone else is telling lies.
Second, we must teach them to be relentless bullies.
We've invested a lot of time and energy on anti-bullying efforts but the evidence is clear - America loves bullies and wants them to not just succeed but lead. Regardless of your child's identity or beliefs, it is vital that they learn to relentlessly persecute anyone who is different from them. This persecution doesn't need to be justified - and, of course, it doesn't need to be based on anything true. Our kids aren't going to be able to thrive in Trumps' America if they don't learn to throw a punch, sling an insult or wear a jack boot.
Third, we must teach them to be completely egocentric.
Trump doesn't seem to care much about anyone but himself. This has been a very successful strategy for him his entire life. They should ignore things like laws, norms, and the desires of other people and make all of their decisions based on what they want at the moment that they want it. Evidence suggests if you just stop caring about anybody else's needs or wants, you can become President of the United States.
I realize that these three things are a departure from how we normally raise children, but Trump's victory should be seen as a disruption of all previous morality. The important thing now is to raise a generation of amoral, selfish, dishonest bullies because that's the only way to ensure that they'll be successful adults in Trump's America.*
*Some might be successful in the traditional way of behaving in a moral, compassionate way, but they'll not be as happy as those without morals or empathy for the next chunk of the century.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Trump's success this election has led me, as an educator, to realize we need to change three major things to our education system in order to better prepare our children for Trump's America. They are hard things that acknowledge the direction our country is going.
I suggest these things soberly, modestly and after much thought.
First, we must teach our children to be better and more effective liars.
Our president-elect succeeded without needing to tell the truth. Indeed, the truth would have actively hindered his campaign. There is no longer much value in truth as a public commodity. Students need to learn how to lie in ways that best benefit them personally - ideally, starting at home, but also in schools and churches. They should be punished for telling the truth about anything until they learn to lie about even the most innocuous things - like sports scores or whether they flushed the toilet or not. This also teaches them not to trust anyone else since they can just assume everyone else is telling lies.
Second, we must teach them to be relentless bullies.
We've invested a lot of time and energy on anti-bullying efforts but the evidence is clear - America loves bullies and wants them to not just succeed but lead. Regardless of your child's identity or beliefs, it is vital that they learn to relentlessly persecute anyone who is different from them. This persecution doesn't need to be justified - and, of course, it doesn't need to be based on anything true. Our kids aren't going to be able to thrive in Trumps' America if they don't learn to throw a punch, sling an insult or wear a jack boot.
Third, we must teach them to be completely egocentric.
Trump doesn't seem to care much about anyone but himself. This has been a very successful strategy for him his entire life. They should ignore things like laws, norms, and the desires of other people and make all of their decisions based on what they want at the moment that they want it. Evidence suggests if you just stop caring about anybody else's needs or wants, you can become President of the United States.
I realize that these three things are a departure from how we normally raise children, but Trump's victory should be seen as a disruption of all previous morality. The important thing now is to raise a generation of amoral, selfish, dishonest bullies because that's the only way to ensure that they'll be successful adults in Trump's America.*
*Some might be successful in the traditional way of behaving in a moral, compassionate way, but they'll not be as happy as those without morals or empathy for the next chunk of the century.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Southern Poverty Law Center is collecting reports of incidents of hate. Please if you have one or know someone who does, report them, because the more we report them the less these fans of Trump can hide.
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 3:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 3:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I reported ours to the SPLC. I wish that I had called the campus cops. I don't know if they could have done anything, but I think this shit needs to be documented.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
But what can we do when Trump supporters either don't believe it's real, or believe it's something that liberals are doing to make them look bad? When something being the truth stops being relevant, what difference will it make?
posted by Mchelly at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
You know what pisses me off so much? Over the past decade, hearing repeatedly about the death of the Republican party. All of these experts saying "that's it, the Republican party is dead. Expect 20+ years of Dems in the white house.
That's it man. I'm done. Has there ever been more damning evidence that the media and the "experts" have just no goddamned idea what they're talking about? I literally might as well get my info from my angry fb uncle, because odds are he's as right as any of the fucking "professional media" we have right now.
posted by nushustu at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
That's it man. I'm done. Has there ever been more damning evidence that the media and the "experts" have just no goddamned idea what they're talking about? I literally might as well get my info from my angry fb uncle, because odds are he's as right as any of the fucking "professional media" we have right now.
posted by nushustu at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
A Modest Proposal Regarding Some New Educational Reforms
I wish there were a way to anti-favorite this.
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wish there were a way to anti-favorite this.
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
But what can we do when Trump supporters either don't believe it's real, or believe it's something that liberals are doing to make them look bad? When something being the truth stops being relevant, what difference will it make?
Clearly, the margin between victory and defeat is based on the narrowest margins of public opinion. Even if you only convince a percent or two, that could be enough.
posted by Zalzidrax at 4:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clearly, the margin between victory and defeat is based on the narrowest margins of public opinion. Even if you only convince a percent or two, that could be enough.
posted by Zalzidrax at 4:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it? I spent like twenty minutes trying to get it off, and all I have is a scratched bumper, beaten up fingernails, and I still feel like shit.
[offtopic, but my answer is brief, so...]
Try warming it up a bit, either by leaving it out in the sun or running a hair dryer over it (if you have a heat gun, even better). This will soften the material. Use a plastic credit card (or failing that, pick up a plastic "razor blade" sold at some auto parts stores) to get started at one of the edges, grasp the loose bit and slooooowly peel away, helping as needed w/ the card. Clean up sticky residue w/ Goo Gone or similar.
posted by indubitable at 4:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
[offtopic, but my answer is brief, so...]
Try warming it up a bit, either by leaving it out in the sun or running a hair dryer over it (if you have a heat gun, even better). This will soften the material. Use a plastic credit card (or failing that, pick up a plastic "razor blade" sold at some auto parts stores) to get started at one of the edges, grasp the loose bit and slooooowly peel away, helping as needed w/ the card. Clean up sticky residue w/ Goo Gone or similar.
posted by indubitable at 4:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
A Modest Proposal Regarding Some New Educational Reforms
First, we must teach our children to be better and more effective liars.
Second, we must teach them to be relentless bullies.
Third, we must teach them to be completely egocentric.
As a baby boomer with 'greatest generation' parents, I was (subtly) taught these things at home. I'm proud of myself to say these lessons didn't stick with me, but I suspect they went over well with others of my generation. Dishonest Donald was born into the very beginning of the baby boom; he is the purest distillation of our dominant traits, and that's why I don't think of him much as an aberration.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
First, we must teach our children to be better and more effective liars.
Second, we must teach them to be relentless bullies.
Third, we must teach them to be completely egocentric.
As a baby boomer with 'greatest generation' parents, I was (subtly) taught these things at home. I'm proud of myself to say these lessons didn't stick with me, but I suspect they went over well with others of my generation. Dishonest Donald was born into the very beginning of the baby boom; he is the purest distillation of our dominant traits, and that's why I don't think of him much as an aberration.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it?
Sorry. Most of the hundreds of bumpers in my neighborhood, and probably entire city, still have Sanders stickers on them. Nobody took them off.
(I've still only seen two or three Clinton ones, and I think a Trump sticker once, on the freeway. Not sure what that means. She carried the state easily, anyway.)
posted by rokusan at 4:15 PM on November 10, 2016
Sorry. Most of the hundreds of bumpers in my neighborhood, and probably entire city, still have Sanders stickers on them. Nobody took them off.
(I've still only seen two or three Clinton ones, and I think a Trump sticker once, on the freeway. Not sure what that means. She carried the state easily, anyway.)
posted by rokusan at 4:15 PM on November 10, 2016
"All of these experts saying "that's it, the Republican party is dead."
The Republican party is dead. Trump is Dr. Frankenstein.
These things change. Lincoln was a Republican. It meant something else then.
I don't want to get into a "Bernie could/should/would/ have won" thing, but the implosion of the GOP wasn't necessarily going to be a good thing for the Dems.
My state is all blue, we have a Republican governor and the Mayor of Chicago is perpetually indistinguishable from Mussolini. So I have no clue what these things are actually supposed to stand for.
Meh, we'll see who actually shows up this time in 2018.
Make one less safe space for racists/homophobes/Islamophobes/anti-Semites,
Heh. *click...click* Way ahead of ya.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Republican party is dead. Trump is Dr. Frankenstein.
These things change. Lincoln was a Republican. It meant something else then.
I don't want to get into a "Bernie could/should/would/ have won" thing, but the implosion of the GOP wasn't necessarily going to be a good thing for the Dems.
My state is all blue, we have a Republican governor and the Mayor of Chicago is perpetually indistinguishable from Mussolini. So I have no clue what these things are actually supposed to stand for.
Meh, we'll see who actually shows up this time in 2018.
Make one less safe space for racists/homophobes/Islamophobes/anti-Semites,
Heh. *click...click* Way ahead of ya.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Does anyone have a line on a nice rear bumper for a green 1995 Subaru wagon that doesn't have a Bernie Sanders for President sticker on it?
Did you try putting lighter fluid on it? Not to light it on fire, but it's usually effective on most sticker glue.
(Zippo) Lighter fluid is basically naphtha, which you can often find in hardware and paint stores near the paint thinner and acetone and such.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Did you try putting lighter fluid on it? Not to light it on fire, but it's usually effective on most sticker glue.
(Zippo) Lighter fluid is basically naphtha, which you can often find in hardware and paint stores near the paint thinner and acetone and such.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't want to get into a "Bernie could/should/would/ have won" thing, but the implosion of the GOP wasn't necessarily going to be a good thing for the Dems.
The GOP was Saddam Hussein's Middle East. Trumpists are ISIS. One was really bad but when it blew up what replaced it is so much worse.
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
The GOP was Saddam Hussein's Middle East. Trumpists are ISIS. One was really bad but when it blew up what replaced it is so much worse.
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
jscalzi's The Cinemax Theory of Racism.
That's a great piece. But, and I felt this way after reading his piece a few weeks ago on his Trump-supporting neighbors (who he pals around with and engages in prank wars and such), he, too, is subscribing to Cinemax in those relationships. He has decided that the HBO of having good relationships with his neighbors (who are by his accounts great people, probably helped by the fact that Scalzi is an upper middle class straight white guy with a nuclear white family) is worth the Cinemax of tacitly condoning their racism. Writing about it on a blog is something, I guess, but it's quite literally the least you can do while still being able to say you do something.
posted by Justinian at 4:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
That's a great piece. But, and I felt this way after reading his piece a few weeks ago on his Trump-supporting neighbors (who he pals around with and engages in prank wars and such), he, too, is subscribing to Cinemax in those relationships. He has decided that the HBO of having good relationships with his neighbors (who are by his accounts great people, probably helped by the fact that Scalzi is an upper middle class straight white guy with a nuclear white family) is worth the Cinemax of tacitly condoning their racism. Writing about it on a blog is something, I guess, but it's quite literally the least you can do while still being able to say you do something.
posted by Justinian at 4:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
The hamsters in the Big Brother house were just informed of the election results by host Julie Chen. No Trump supporters left in the house right now.
*This is a super-smart feminist who finished law school in two years and is currently fooling everyone into thinking she's a dumb, superficial waitress while gracefully enduring a ton of personal attacks. I'd take her over Trump any day.
posted by acidic at 4:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Morgan: A reality TV star is our President.Now they're begging to stay in the house for the next four years, proposing on-air to Big Brother Canada alums, talking "goodbye uterus" and "gotta build a bomb shelter", and actually offering some pretty accurate theories as to how it happened, despite zero knowledge of the past two months.
Shelby: I guess we all have hope then?*
*This is a super-smart feminist who finished law school in two years and is currently fooling everyone into thinking she's a dumb, superficial waitress while gracefully enduring a ton of personal attacks. I'd take her over Trump any day.
posted by acidic at 4:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Writing about it on a blog is something, I guess, but it's quite literally the least you can do while still being able to say you do something.
What we know about Mr. Scalzi's life can fit in a thimble with room for Paul Ryan's heart and the combined consciences of the House Republicans.
Do good things as much as you can; nobody's going to be completely consistent, even with their own philosophy. Calls for purity of any kind are doomed to failure, and tend to create demagogues.
posted by Mooski at 4:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
What we know about Mr. Scalzi's life can fit in a thimble with room for Paul Ryan's heart and the combined consciences of the House Republicans.
Do good things as much as you can; nobody's going to be completely consistent, even with their own philosophy. Calls for purity of any kind are doomed to failure, and tend to create demagogues.
posted by Mooski at 4:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sure, and I would bet I'm not completely consistent either. And if somebody points that out on a blog or Metafilter or whatever, go for it.
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking of weapons, I've seen some online suggesting for the Democrats to drop gun control.
I dropped it after Sandy Hook. If 20 dead elementary school kids didn't change it, nothing will.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:41 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Charles Blow: America Elects a Bigot:
Mr. Trump will become this country’s 45th president. For me, it is a truly shocking fact, a bitter pill to swallow. I remain convinced that this is one of the worst possible people who could be elected president. I remain convinced that Trump has a fundamentally flawed character and is literally dangerous for world stability and injurious to America’s standing in that world.posted by palindromic at 4:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
There is so much that I can’t fully comprehend.
It is hard to know specifically how to position yourself in a country that can elect a man with such staggering ineptitude and open animus. It makes you doubt whatever faith you had in the country itself.
Also, let me be clear: Businessman Donald Trump was a bigot. Candidate Donald Trump was a bigot. Republican nominee Donald Trump was a bigot. And I can only assume that President Donald Trump will be a bigot.
I feel bad for Kate McKinnon. She must've thought she had job security for the next 4-8 years.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, and now SNL has to find someone to play Trump every week.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
t is super, super cool to see those who never supported her
Keep clinging to the hope that a Third Way, DLC Democrat is ever going get the things done that need done in this country.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Keep clinging to the hope that a Third Way, DLC Democrat is ever going get the things done that need done in this country.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, and now SNL has to find someone to play Trump every week.
A few Cease and Desist letters and those skits just sorta fade away.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
A few Cease and Desist letters and those skits just sorta fade away.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, and now SNL has to find someone to play Trump every week.
If I'm Lorne Michaels, I'm representing him the way Peanuts represents adults. Off screen and via nothing but muted sad trombone sounds.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
If I'm Lorne Michaels, I'm representing him the way Peanuts represents adults. Off screen and via nothing but muted sad trombone sounds.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [31 favorites]
But, and I felt this way after reading his piece a few weeks ago on his Trump-supporting neighbors (who he pals around with and engages in prank wars and such), he, too, is subscribing to Cinemax in those relationships. He has decided that the HBO of having good relationships with his neighbors (who are by his accounts great people, probably helped by the fact that Scalzi is an upper middle class straight white guy with a nuclear white family) is worth the Cinemax of tacitly condoning their racism.
Unbundle the package. Once the Obamacare repeals, the anti-immigration acts, the Muslim bans, whatever anti-LGBT stuff Pence gets into starts coming out, confront them about it. Reveal to them just what exactly the president they voted for is sponsoring. Show them the repercussions and how they would impact you and those whom you care about. Trump is such a complicated and self-contradictory mess that it's doubtful that most of his voters understood the full repercussions of what he would do. If they won't disavow the man, at least perhaps they can reject his specific actions.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unbundle the package. Once the Obamacare repeals, the anti-immigration acts, the Muslim bans, whatever anti-LGBT stuff Pence gets into starts coming out, confront them about it. Reveal to them just what exactly the president they voted for is sponsoring. Show them the repercussions and how they would impact you and those whom you care about. Trump is such a complicated and self-contradictory mess that it's doubtful that most of his voters understood the full repercussions of what he would do. If they won't disavow the man, at least perhaps they can reject his specific actions.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
So I get up from the drawing board (I've gone back and forth between drawing and reading MeFi since I got home), walk into the kitchen for a (second) glass of wine, and my mind went blissfully blank for a couple moments while I opened the bottle.
Completely unbidden, my mind shouts "WE FOLLOWED UP BARACK OBAMA WITH DONALD FUCKING TRUMP."
Reader, I switched to Bourbon.
posted by Mooski at 5:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Completely unbidden, my mind shouts "WE FOLLOWED UP BARACK OBAMA WITH DONALD FUCKING TRUMP."
Reader, I switched to Bourbon.
posted by Mooski at 5:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
What Hillary Clinton means to me:
In 1992, my first grade teacher informed me that the US had never elected a woman as president. She said, "But I believe we will one day. It could be Hillary Clinton! Or it could be you." Knowing that Hillary aspired to do what women haven't been allowed to do inspired me to aspire.
When I was a young woman and going through anorexia, I struggled to believe that my talents, intelligence, or competence mattered if I wasn't "perfect" physically. When men tried to reduce and dismiss Hillary by saying she had "cankles" I could feel in my heart that it meant nothing compared to her brilliance and accomplishments. And watching her believe in herself, I believed I could have the same spirit, the same resistance.
When I chose my career (I'm a social worker), Hillary was in my mind as well. Her lifetime of public service has shown that power and nurturing are not dichotomous.
In my personal and professional life I have been condescended to, objectified, and called to justify myself by men. After watching Hillary handle the Benghazi hearings I had a role model to channel as I handled these incidences and the pervasive environment of sexism.
Yesterday, I was so heartsick, grief struck, and sleep deprived I didn't believe I could be emotionally available for my clients. Then I saw Hillary comforting her supporters one by one after her concession speech and I knew if she could do it, I could too. And I did.
We can argue about whether Bernie would have beat Trump, whether Hillary has too much "baggage", whether she made ideal choices in her campaign. But what will always be true to me is that I would not be who I am without Hillary and I will be forever grateful to her for fighting with grace and fire. And we will continue the fight, including nurturing, protecting, and loving as Hillary would.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [75 favorites]
In 1992, my first grade teacher informed me that the US had never elected a woman as president. She said, "But I believe we will one day. It could be Hillary Clinton! Or it could be you." Knowing that Hillary aspired to do what women haven't been allowed to do inspired me to aspire.
When I was a young woman and going through anorexia, I struggled to believe that my talents, intelligence, or competence mattered if I wasn't "perfect" physically. When men tried to reduce and dismiss Hillary by saying she had "cankles" I could feel in my heart that it meant nothing compared to her brilliance and accomplishments. And watching her believe in herself, I believed I could have the same spirit, the same resistance.
When I chose my career (I'm a social worker), Hillary was in my mind as well. Her lifetime of public service has shown that power and nurturing are not dichotomous.
In my personal and professional life I have been condescended to, objectified, and called to justify myself by men. After watching Hillary handle the Benghazi hearings I had a role model to channel as I handled these incidences and the pervasive environment of sexism.
Yesterday, I was so heartsick, grief struck, and sleep deprived I didn't believe I could be emotionally available for my clients. Then I saw Hillary comforting her supporters one by one after her concession speech and I knew if she could do it, I could too. And I did.
We can argue about whether Bernie would have beat Trump, whether Hillary has too much "baggage", whether she made ideal choices in her campaign. But what will always be true to me is that I would not be who I am without Hillary and I will be forever grateful to her for fighting with grace and fire. And we will continue the fight, including nurturing, protecting, and loving as Hillary would.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [75 favorites]
I just need a second to vent, MeFi. I am so done with white so-called allies who refuse to name--and thus refuse to actually confront and defeat--white supremacy and misogyny.
So instead, they retreat to safely deracinate, de-gengered blanket terms that allow them to deny white culpability in particular: it's "the working class" (uh, newsflash, guess who makes up a lot of the working class? POC who voted for Hillary!); or, it's "Gen X" or whatever.
And then when I tried to call one white so-called ally on this, this asshole had to nerve to first try to complain about "general low turnout" for Dems and point the finger at the 94% of Black women who voted for Hillary because their "enthusiasm was down." Right. The problem with the election was the 6% of Black women who didn't support Hillary... and somehow NOT the 53% of White women who voted for Trump!
I just cannot deal with people like this anymore. White allies, step up and actually bend your backs to this task.
And kind of along those lines, on the one hand I'm really, really pleased and heartened to see all of the protests going on. But I keep getting asked (by White friends) if I'm going to our local one, and I really just kind of feel like, "Nah, this one is all on you" at the moment. Because my people and my closest true allies--those whose lives have immediately become more precarious since 2am on Wednesday--came correct to this election.
posted by TwoStride at 5:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
So instead, they retreat to safely deracinate, de-gengered blanket terms that allow them to deny white culpability in particular: it's "the working class" (uh, newsflash, guess who makes up a lot of the working class? POC who voted for Hillary!); or, it's "Gen X" or whatever.
And then when I tried to call one white so-called ally on this, this asshole had to nerve to first try to complain about "general low turnout" for Dems and point the finger at the 94% of Black women who voted for Hillary because their "enthusiasm was down." Right. The problem with the election was the 6% of Black women who didn't support Hillary... and somehow NOT the 53% of White women who voted for Trump!
I just cannot deal with people like this anymore. White allies, step up and actually bend your backs to this task.
And kind of along those lines, on the one hand I'm really, really pleased and heartened to see all of the protests going on. But I keep getting asked (by White friends) if I'm going to our local one, and I really just kind of feel like, "Nah, this one is all on you" at the moment. Because my people and my closest true allies--those whose lives have immediately become more precarious since 2am on Wednesday--came correct to this election.
posted by TwoStride at 5:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [68 favorites]
Oh, and on the topic of better allies: one small delight has been seeing no small number of my Korean evangelical friends just utterly shredding the hypocrisy--copious pertinent Biblical verses and all--of the White evangelical voters...
posted by TwoStride at 5:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 5:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
TwoStride, I would be very interested in seeing some of those verse justified take-downs.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Small data point regarding the protests: I was speaking to my family in Italy today trying desperately to make them understand what just happened to us. They are all horrified and alarmed and flabbergasted and some of these people voted for Berlusconi. They said they hoped the protests would continue so the world could remember the fact that Trump does not represent all of the US. They found them heartening, seemingly more powerful than just vocal opposition.
posted by lydhre at 5:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 5:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
this truly is a tragedy - somehow the democrats just didn't put it together - a candidate with too much baggage? - sheer misogony - a screwed up electoral system (but if the situation was reversed, the cries of "rigged" would be overwhelming) - a failure to communicate the message to more - although i felt she was brilliantly clear ...
moving forward (or backwards)
trump will become frustrated with the slow rate of change in washington - the infighting in his own party will be great - i think he will try to get congress or the state legislatures to call for a 2nd constitutional convention
which would be a complete mess if it happens
there's going to be protest and civil unrest - people have pointed out the fears that white people are going to be emboldened to acts of blunt oppression - but it's worse than that - i think the militia/soveriegn citizens movement is going to take this as their chance to force the government to their side and trump will foolishly create martyrs - after which, we will have a low grade insurrection on our hands that won't be ended easily
in the meantime, i think trump's base is going to be disappointed - the man is not going to deliver on the economy - the factory jobs aren't coming back - the coal mines aren't all going to reopen - and, really, the millenial generation doesn't want jobs in a coal mine or a factory
oh, and that wall isn't going to be built because mexico won't pay for it and neither will congress
sometime in the next 4 years, the red state half are finally going to realize just how badly they've been conned
all hell will break loose
in the meantime, the rest of us better figure out what kind of future we want to build and how
posted by pyramid termite at 5:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
moving forward (or backwards)
trump will become frustrated with the slow rate of change in washington - the infighting in his own party will be great - i think he will try to get congress or the state legislatures to call for a 2nd constitutional convention
which would be a complete mess if it happens
there's going to be protest and civil unrest - people have pointed out the fears that white people are going to be emboldened to acts of blunt oppression - but it's worse than that - i think the militia/soveriegn citizens movement is going to take this as their chance to force the government to their side and trump will foolishly create martyrs - after which, we will have a low grade insurrection on our hands that won't be ended easily
in the meantime, i think trump's base is going to be disappointed - the man is not going to deliver on the economy - the factory jobs aren't coming back - the coal mines aren't all going to reopen - and, really, the millenial generation doesn't want jobs in a coal mine or a factory
oh, and that wall isn't going to be built because mexico won't pay for it and neither will congress
sometime in the next 4 years, the red state half are finally going to realize just how badly they've been conned
all hell will break loose
in the meantime, the rest of us better figure out what kind of future we want to build and how
posted by pyramid termite at 5:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Trump Memos: The ACLU has released a report on the Constitutional implications of Trump's stated positions. [PDF]
posted by Rykey at 5:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 5:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [29 favorites]
So I posted that Day 1 roundup on my facebook, asking my friends who voted for Trump what they're personally planning on doing to stop this, since they normalized it and gave it a mandate. So far I've gotten two responses - both of them essentially saying these were "agents provocateurs" and/or fake. One of them was Jewish.
Yeah I stupidly posted in comments on a Trump person's post and immediately got five replies saying all these incidents are sponsored by the DNC and financed by Soros. Unbelievable.
posted by Cocodrillo at 5:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm seeing a lot of statements from Trumpenfolk like "this is what happens when you tell people what to do." I am not inclined to be especially empathetic with somebody whose primary driving ethos is "you can't tell me what to do."
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
statements from Trumpenfolk like "this is what happens when you tell people what to do."
QFT. This is what happens when eight years of right-wing echo chamber media, topped off with an orange demagague President Elect, tells people what to do.
posted by Rykey at 5:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
QFT. This is what happens when eight years of right-wing echo chamber media, topped off with an orange demagague President Elect, tells people what to do.
posted by Rykey at 5:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
sponsored by the DNC and financed by Soros
i mean like all other obvious responses aside these shitsmeared cretins clearly have no idea about the incomprehensibly slow pace of nonprofit funding
posted by poffin boffin at 5:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
i mean like all other obvious responses aside these shitsmeared cretins clearly have no idea about the incomprehensibly slow pace of nonprofit funding
posted by poffin boffin at 5:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
For anyone interested, here is Julie Chen telling the last six houseguests about Donald Trump winning the presidency. Very surreal moment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The rules for survival in an autocracy, by Masha Gessen:
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.posted by acb at 5:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [77 favorites]
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
Rule #6: Remember the future.
Huffington Post: "DNC Staffer Screams At Donna Brazile For Helping Elect Donald Trump"
Donna Brazile, the interim leader of the Democratic National Committee, was giving what one attendee described as “a rip-roaring speech” to about 150 employees, about the need to have hope for wins going forward, when a staffer identified only as Zach stood up with a question.
“Why should we trust you as chair to lead us through this?” he asked, according to two people in the room. “You backed a flawed candidate, and your friend [former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz] plotted through this to support your own gain and yourself.”
Some DNC staffers started to boo and some told him to sit down. Brazile began to answer, but Zach had more to say.
“You are part of the problem,” he continued, blaming Brazile for clearing the path for Trump’s victory by siding with Clinton early on. “You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy.”
Zach gathered his things and began to walk out. When Brazile called after him, asking where he was going, he told her to go outside and “tell people there” why she should be leading the party.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Donna Brazile, the interim leader of the Democratic National Committee, was giving what one attendee described as “a rip-roaring speech” to about 150 employees, about the need to have hope for wins going forward, when a staffer identified only as Zach stood up with a question.
“Why should we trust you as chair to lead us through this?” he asked, according to two people in the room. “You backed a flawed candidate, and your friend [former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz] plotted through this to support your own gain and yourself.”
Some DNC staffers started to boo and some told him to sit down. Brazile began to answer, but Zach had more to say.
“You are part of the problem,” he continued, blaming Brazile for clearing the path for Trump’s victory by siding with Clinton early on. “You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy.”
Zach gathered his things and began to walk out. When Brazile called after him, asking where he was going, he told her to go outside and “tell people there” why she should be leading the party.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
The GOP is going to scrap the filibuster. I hope the Democrats have the spine to adopt the obstructionism of the recent GOP, but I doubt it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:42 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:42 PM on November 10, 2016
If the GOP scraps the filibuster they don't have any tools to adopt.
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2016
And now Leonard Cohen has died.
posted by drezdn at 5:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 5:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
And now Leonard Cohen is dead. I can't.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:52 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:52 PM on November 10, 2016
Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sophie1 at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
the future's murder
posted by pyramid termite at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, and now SNL has to find someone to play Trump every week.
As a regular SNL watcher, I would be perfectly happy to not be reminded of Trump's existence every time I watch the show.
posted by wondermouse at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
As a regular SNL watcher, I would be perfectly happy to not be reminded of Trump's existence every time I watch the show.
posted by wondermouse at 5:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Donald Trump Wins Election and Indian Country Holds Its Breath
What the Trump Victory Means for Standing Rock: The Sioux tribe is facing a pro-oil president-elect with personal investments riding on the completion of the Dakota Access pipeline.
Leader of the Standing Rock Sioux on Prayers and a President Trump: “We’re about protecting our future. And that’s what he should be about.”
posted by homunculus at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
What the Trump Victory Means for Standing Rock: The Sioux tribe is facing a pro-oil president-elect with personal investments riding on the completion of the Dakota Access pipeline.
Leader of the Standing Rock Sioux on Prayers and a President Trump: “We’re about protecting our future. And that’s what he should be about.”
posted by homunculus at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Dammit, 2016. What the actual fuck.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
As a regular SNL watcher, I would be perfectly happy to not be reminded of Trump's existence every time I watch the show.
That would probably the most hilarious way they could handle him.
posted by drezdn at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
That would probably the most hilarious way they could handle him.
posted by drezdn at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
And now Leonard Cohen has died.
This is the darkest timeline.
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
This is the darkest timeline.
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Does anyone have a pencil I can use? I need to add "flawed candidate," "neo-liberal," "technocracy," and "be nice to racists" to my Charming Codewords list, just below "redpill," "cuck," and "it's actually about ethics in game journalism."
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
2 personal anecdotes and then a summation of my thoughts at this moment.
My daughter in California is a personal caretaker for a nonagenarian, Mrs. C. Mrs. C's priest stopped by the day after the election and they discussed the results. The priest told her that there was only one candidate a good Catholic could possibly support. Mrs. C replied she voted for Clinton. The priest then spent a good 15 minutes berating her and trying to make feel bad about her vote. After he left my daughter stepped in to soothe her and remind her of all the good reasons there were to support Clinton. And the two of them comforted each other.
Right after the Bus video came out I talked to my mom in Cali and my father-in-law here in NC. Both life-long Republicans were horrified. Both repudiated Trump completely and utterly. Both ultimately ended up voting for him. They both told me "I voted for my Party."
Which brings me to my thoughts as this moment in time. I think we were just very, very unlucky. There were several things that happened to line-up in the wrong way for us. If the Bus video had come out a week before the election. If the Voting Rights Act had been upheld rather than struck down. If Comey had kept his mouth shut. If. If. If. Our tragedy is that it could so easily have gone the other way and the cracks in the Republican party would have widened and been harder to paper over. As it is we are stuck out here in the wilderness with no clear map to guide us back home and the Republicans have a secure hold on all three branches of the government.
I'm not ready to start with the circular firing squad. I think we need to time to process our loss and we need a better understanding of exactly what went wrong. I'm so sad and so sorry and so worried for everyone-- even those sad, dumb deplorables who shot themselves in the foot. They have elected a Con Artist who will be hell bent on enriching himself and enacting revenge. Neither of those two things will help anybody.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
My daughter in California is a personal caretaker for a nonagenarian, Mrs. C. Mrs. C's priest stopped by the day after the election and they discussed the results. The priest told her that there was only one candidate a good Catholic could possibly support. Mrs. C replied she voted for Clinton. The priest then spent a good 15 minutes berating her and trying to make feel bad about her vote. After he left my daughter stepped in to soothe her and remind her of all the good reasons there were to support Clinton. And the two of them comforted each other.
Right after the Bus video came out I talked to my mom in Cali and my father-in-law here in NC. Both life-long Republicans were horrified. Both repudiated Trump completely and utterly. Both ultimately ended up voting for him. They both told me "I voted for my Party."
Which brings me to my thoughts as this moment in time. I think we were just very, very unlucky. There were several things that happened to line-up in the wrong way for us. If the Bus video had come out a week before the election. If the Voting Rights Act had been upheld rather than struck down. If Comey had kept his mouth shut. If. If. If. Our tragedy is that it could so easily have gone the other way and the cracks in the Republican party would have widened and been harder to paper over. As it is we are stuck out here in the wilderness with no clear map to guide us back home and the Republicans have a secure hold on all three branches of the government.
I'm not ready to start with the circular firing squad. I think we need to time to process our loss and we need a better understanding of exactly what went wrong. I'm so sad and so sorry and so worried for everyone-- even those sad, dumb deplorables who shot themselves in the foot. They have elected a Con Artist who will be hell bent on enriching himself and enacting revenge. Neither of those two things will help anybody.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
This is the darkest timeline.
The cob planet is starting to look appealing.
posted by drezdn at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh god, not Leonard, not NOW. Let's all sing "Democracy" and weep.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you haven't watched Adam Curtis' Hypernormalization yet I would like to recommend that you do at some point. It is long and perhaps meandering, difficult at times in the use of some graphic footage, and does not end on a high note - but the end is particularly important.
posted by Golem XIV at 6:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Golem XIV at 6:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the upside I am saving a lot of money on food this week.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
We should remember that the FBI, the New York FBI, went out of their way to help get Trump elected by pressuring Comey, and that they did this because they were angry that the Justice Department wanted to pursue charges in the Eric Garner case, as well as not being allowed to go forward with a partisan Clinton Foundation investigation.
Obviously our justice system is overall white supremacist, but by helping elect Trump they now have a leader that will not hold them in check. In fact, Trump's whole history, since the Central Park 5, is to use racial hate to justify an increase in police force, such as to argue for corporal punishment. We don't know yet who Trump will appoint to high positions, but it could be Giuliani or even Arpaio. His whole fake black outreach was that their communities are full of crime and that we need law and order. I guess I'm just saying this so that everyone knows that we all need to vocally support movements like Black Lives Matter more than ever, and the NAACP, and the ACLU, etc.
Is there any good information about how to deal with police these days? If we consider Trump voters to be a 'white lash', remember the police that posed with Trump, and remember the ICE union endorsing Trump. I feel ill just writing this.
posted by airish at 6:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Obviously our justice system is overall white supremacist, but by helping elect Trump they now have a leader that will not hold them in check. In fact, Trump's whole history, since the Central Park 5, is to use racial hate to justify an increase in police force, such as to argue for corporal punishment. We don't know yet who Trump will appoint to high positions, but it could be Giuliani or even Arpaio. His whole fake black outreach was that their communities are full of crime and that we need law and order. I guess I'm just saying this so that everyone knows that we all need to vocally support movements like Black Lives Matter more than ever, and the NAACP, and the ACLU, etc.
Is there any good information about how to deal with police these days? If we consider Trump voters to be a 'white lash', remember the police that posed with Trump, and remember the ICE union endorsing Trump. I feel ill just writing this.
posted by airish at 6:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [32 favorites]
Leonard Cohen. Poor man, what terrible last days we gave him. I was thinking when all this went down that it would push the old and the frail to die sooner out of heartbreak.
I'm seeing a lot of statements from Trumpenfolk like "this is what happens when you tell people what to do." I am not inclined to be especially empathetic with somebody whose primary driving ethos is "you can't tell me what to do."
Yeah? People's response to being "told what to do" is to call school children by racial slurs? Big men, you Trump people, you're big men.
I don't know. I think we've elected a Hitler. I thought it would be bad, but I didn't think it would be as bad as it's shaping up.
posted by Frowner at 6:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm seeing a lot of statements from Trumpenfolk like "this is what happens when you tell people what to do." I am not inclined to be especially empathetic with somebody whose primary driving ethos is "you can't tell me what to do."
Yeah? People's response to being "told what to do" is to call school children by racial slurs? Big men, you Trump people, you're big men.
I don't know. I think we've elected a Hitler. I thought it would be bad, but I didn't think it would be as bad as it's shaping up.
posted by Frowner at 6:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm beginning to get our new government confused with that nice president on Designated Survivor.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:04 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
> A madman has been given the keys to the surveillance state
Obama has handed a surveillance state and war machine to a maniac: Trump will have a vast national security and military apparatus at his disposal, including a nuclear arsenal, to wreak havoc in the US and abroad
posted by homunculus at 6:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Obama has handed a surveillance state and war machine to a maniac: Trump will have a vast national security and military apparatus at his disposal, including a nuclear arsenal, to wreak havoc in the US and abroad
posted by homunculus at 6:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
i remember when i was very young how a good part of a generation rebelled against what their elders were trying to make them do
i wonder if this generation will rebel even more
why the hell shouldn't they? they have even less reason to respect their elders after this election
posted by pyramid termite at 6:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
i wonder if this generation will rebel even more
why the hell shouldn't they? they have even less reason to respect their elders after this election
posted by pyramid termite at 6:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
why the hell shouldn't they? they have even less reason to respect their elders after this election
Well that and whole lot more at stake. Nothing big though, just literally their future survival.
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well that and whole lot more at stake. Nothing big though, just literally their future survival.
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
"First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin"
posted by clavdivs at 6:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 6:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
wonder if this generation will rebel even more
Oh hell no, remember '68.
posted by clavdivs at 6:14 PM on November 10, 2016
Oh hell no, remember '68.
posted by clavdivs at 6:14 PM on November 10, 2016
Well that and whole lot more at stake. Nothing big though, just literally their future survival.
They're far more at risk from rebelling than their parents ever were.
Oh, here's a pleasant thought: Remember how the Russians hacked the State Department and the DNC? Look forward to more hacking, against any target you could possibly imagine opposing Trump.
I keep hoping that I'm wrong. I keep hoping that some of this isn't going to happen, that somehow the electoral college will pull off an upset or that this is some kind of nightmare.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:14 PM on November 10, 2016
They're far more at risk from rebelling than their parents ever were.
Oh, here's a pleasant thought: Remember how the Russians hacked the State Department and the DNC? Look forward to more hacking, against any target you could possibly imagine opposing Trump.
I keep hoping that I'm wrong. I keep hoping that some of this isn't going to happen, that somehow the electoral college will pull off an upset or that this is some kind of nightmare.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:14 PM on November 10, 2016
Well, we can start the People Trump Killed List with Leonard Cohen. (Although a little research would have uncovered plenty more 'construction accidents' and 'casino suicides')
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:17 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:17 PM on November 10, 2016
They're far more at risk from rebelling than their parents ever were.
i think they're more at risk from not rebelling - although, i've got to point out that OUR existence in the 60s wasn't assured, either - in fact, much of what we worried about has happened
posted by pyramid termite at 6:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
i think they're more at risk from not rebelling - although, i've got to point out that OUR existence in the 60s wasn't assured, either - in fact, much of what we worried about has happened
posted by pyramid termite at 6:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh hell no, remember '68.
My prediction is that they will rebel. You're seeing the start of it right now. It likely wane and then start up again once Trump starts doing whatever it is he's going to do.
Then he's going to crack down and protestors are going to be killed by the state.
After that it's ??
Either people are going to freak and say hell no and decide that it's serious enough to keep putting their lives at risk and die for the cause or the masses will shut up and take it.
posted by Jalliah at 6:20 PM on November 10, 2016
My prediction is that they will rebel. You're seeing the start of it right now. It likely wane and then start up again once Trump starts doing whatever it is he's going to do.
Then he's going to crack down and protestors are going to be killed by the state.
After that it's ??
Either people are going to freak and say hell no and decide that it's serious enough to keep putting their lives at risk and die for the cause or the masses will shut up and take it.
posted by Jalliah at 6:20 PM on November 10, 2016
It's both terrifying and comforting to read these threads. Since the election result I have come to them less often and been throwing myself into my work - as they say in the classics - in order to maintain some measure of equilibrium. I live far away from the epicentre of fear and loathing but I worry for all of us, and check in periodically for news and views. I approach with dread, I leave better-informed, and sometimes even with a lifted heart. MeFites, much love.
posted by valetta at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by valetta at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, here's a pleasant thought: Remember how the Russians hacked the State Department and the DNC? Look forward to more hacking, against any target you could possibly imagine opposing Trump.
I keep hoping that I'm wrong. I keep hoping that some of this isn't going to happen, that somehow the electoral college will pull off an upset or that this is some kind of nightmare.
No you're not wrong. It's already started. There is an article upthread somewhere talking about the group that did the hacks. They targeting NGO's now with malware and who know what.
Sorry. :(
posted by Jalliah at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I keep hoping that I'm wrong. I keep hoping that some of this isn't going to happen, that somehow the electoral college will pull off an upset or that this is some kind of nightmare.
No you're not wrong. It's already started. There is an article upthread somewhere talking about the group that did the hacks. They targeting NGO's now with malware and who know what.
Sorry. :(
posted by Jalliah at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The hamsters in the Big Brother house were just informed of the election results by host Julie Chen.
Does anyone remember that scene in Lost where Jack (?) wakes up and is told, among other things, that Bush got re-elected?
The existential horror of that moment really hits me.
Incidentally (and this should go into Ask MeFi, except that it's such a trivial request), I really, really want a post-TFA Star Wars fanfic featuring General Leia kicking ass.
Anyone have any recommendations?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Does anyone remember that scene in Lost where Jack (?) wakes up and is told, among other things, that Bush got re-elected?
The existential horror of that moment really hits me.
Incidentally (and this should go into Ask MeFi, except that it's such a trivial request), I really, really want a post-TFA Star Wars fanfic featuring General Leia kicking ass.
Anyone have any recommendations?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Speaking of the Electoral College. One of the many political podcasts I listened to today (probably the NYTimes The Run Up) suggested that one way Republicans will attempt to retain control of the votes is that Red Governors in Blue states will push for splitting the Electoral votes. There will also be more monkeying around with IDs and limiting polling stations so that the "wrong" people find it harder to vote because that worked out great in NC; the GOP got exactly the results they wanted.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think she has some action sequences in "Life Debt" although that takes place before TFA.
posted by drezdn at 6:26 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by drezdn at 6:26 PM on November 10, 2016
He is tweeting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:27 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:27 PM on November 10, 2016
One of my biggest worries now is that groups like ISIS realize that when Trump is faced with an attack his first response is to lash out. Such an attitude seems to square perfectly with the goals of terrorism. Plus, if Trump really puts someone like Sheriff David Clarke in charge of Homeland Security, it really feels like we're headed down a dark path.
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Using the old, dull chisel JUST DIDN'T WORK.
Disagree. 30 years of worldwide bullshit will bury almost anyone.
posted by petebest at 6:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Disagree. 30 years of worldwide bullshit will bury almost anyone.
posted by petebest at 6:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair! (real, now I'm mad all over again)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
"Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
He sounds Very Presidential.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
He sounds Very Presidential.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately liberals seem to want a candidate with a compelling narrative that doesn't have any flaws and who is charismatic and kind and unfortunately those sorts of people don't typically enter into politics because politics is ugly and messy and it's about constant compromise.
Republican voters seem to understand this and will vote for the person that is going to get them the majority of what they want. Minority voters seem to understand this as well because they will continually vote for candidates that give them a chance at a better future. What I do see among many white liberals is that we fall victim to the both sides are just as bad logic and we disengage. We disengage because frankly for many of us there are no deep and lasting consequences either way
I am repeating this because it is important and related to the next comment:
remember getting temporarily banned, and having several comments removed because I dared insist that I was in the Sanders/Trump demographic (though I eventually voted for Clinton)... which I was repeatedly told didn't exist.
The existence of this demographic was never a surprise to me--indeed, I expected it and also got shouted down and called "divisive" and "insulting" for suggesting its existence. The white liberal left didn't want to believe these people existed because the white liberal left hates being told there exists a moral imperative to compromise their ideological purity. It is the same reason third party voters got so offended if one mentioned that voting third party in the face of someone like Trump is an act of privilege, not protest.
The fact that so many of these people are now blaming Clinton indicates this will not be changing any time soon.
posted by Anonymous at 6:33 PM on November 10, 2016
Republican voters seem to understand this and will vote for the person that is going to get them the majority of what they want. Minority voters seem to understand this as well because they will continually vote for candidates that give them a chance at a better future. What I do see among many white liberals is that we fall victim to the both sides are just as bad logic and we disengage. We disengage because frankly for many of us there are no deep and lasting consequences either way
I am repeating this because it is important and related to the next comment:
remember getting temporarily banned, and having several comments removed because I dared insist that I was in the Sanders/Trump demographic (though I eventually voted for Clinton)... which I was repeatedly told didn't exist.
The existence of this demographic was never a surprise to me--indeed, I expected it and also got shouted down and called "divisive" and "insulting" for suggesting its existence. The white liberal left didn't want to believe these people existed because the white liberal left hates being told there exists a moral imperative to compromise their ideological purity. It is the same reason third party voters got so offended if one mentioned that voting third party in the face of someone like Trump is an act of privilege, not protest.
The fact that so many of these people are now blaming Clinton indicates this will not be changing any time soon.
posted by Anonymous at 6:33 PM on November 10, 2016
I am utterly biased and of course angry.
That tweet is him whining right? Like literally whining.
posted by Jalliah at 6:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
GOP is going to scrap the filibuster
They only have a two seat majority, with at least three #NeverTrumpers. I don't think they will. Not when those three know what the purpose is.
posted by corb at 6:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
They only have a two seat majority, with at least three #NeverTrumpers. I don't think they will. Not when those three know what the purpose is.
posted by corb at 6:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
So I finally had my first laugh today since the election. Was commiserating with my teenaged niece, who is beyond upset right now, and she told me her father voted for Stein. Her father is quite conservative and very #nevertrump. Almost the stereotype of a taciturn, grumpy-and-growly Kansas man of the soil. Was enthusiastic about McCain and Romney. Supported the tea party stuff. Lifelong Republican.
And now he voted for Stein. Even after I tried to sell him on Egg. He and I agreed Johnson was too pathetic for even a protest vote. I didn't mention Stein because I didn't think he'd be remotely interested. But not only did he register his protest, turns out he actually likes the Greens, liked Bernie, and is now interested in stuff that's vaguely socialist populism. This is just a complete 180 and the rest of the family is mystified.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
And now he voted for Stein. Even after I tried to sell him on Egg. He and I agreed Johnson was too pathetic for even a protest vote. I didn't mention Stein because I didn't think he'd be remotely interested. But not only did he register his protest, turns out he actually likes the Greens, liked Bernie, and is now interested in stuff that's vaguely socialist populism. This is just a complete 180 and the rest of the family is mystified.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Speaking of the Electoral College. One of the many political podcasts I listened to today (probably the NYTimes The Run Up) suggested that one way Republicans will attempt to retain control of the votes is that Red Governors in Blue states will push for splitting the Electoral votes. There will also be more monkeying around with IDs and limiting polling stations so that the "wrong" people find it harder to vote because that worked out great in NC; the GOP got exactly the results they wanted.
Yes, we absolutely need to be on guard for this. It's imperative for Democrats to take back as many governorships and state legislatures as possible to prevent this kind of chicanery.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, we absolutely need to be on guard for this. It's imperative for Democrats to take back as many governorships and state legislatures as possible to prevent this kind of chicanery.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know. I think we've elected a Hitler. I thought it would be bad, but I didn't think it would be as bad as it's shaping up.
"Hans... are we the baddies?"
posted by dmh at 6:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Hans... are we the baddies?"
posted by dmh at 6:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
So, when do we arrest Hillary Clinton? Is it now or will that wait until January?
posted by Chrischris at 6:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrischris at 6:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
They only have a two seat majority, with at least three #NeverTrumpers. I don't think they will. Not when those three know what the purpose is.
With all respect corb, but I think it's probably time we don't depend on the courageous ethics of Republicans any longer.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
With all respect corb, but I think it's probably time we don't depend on the courageous ethics of Republicans any longer.
posted by TypographicalError at 6:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
So, when do we arrest Hillary Clinton?
Arresting her? I thought we were burning her for a witch. Or for being a neoliberal who should have known her "baggage" would mean she could never be elected no matter how qualified she was or how hard she prepared.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Arresting her? I thought we were burning her for a witch. Or for being a neoliberal who should have known her "baggage" would mean she could never be elected no matter how qualified she was or how hard she prepared.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Speaking of the Electoral College. One of the many political podcasts I listened to today (probably the NYTimes The Run Up) suggested that one way Republicans will attempt to retain control of the votes is that Red Governors in Blue states will push for splitting the Electoral votes.
Nevada, Minnesota could fall in 2018, Florida is pretty gerrymandered which could give Republicans 15-16 permanent electoral votes. There aren't that many blue states that the Republicans control lock, stock, and barrel.
posted by Talez at 6:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nevada, Minnesota could fall in 2018, Florida is pretty gerrymandered which could give Republicans 15-16 permanent electoral votes. There aren't that many blue states that the Republicans control lock, stock, and barrel.
posted by Talez at 6:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Saddest post I've seen today:
"At this point, if a clown invited me into the woods, I'd just go."
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
"At this point, if a clown invited me into the woods, I'd just go."
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [47 favorites]
"Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
Wow. Donald.... don't.
posted by wondermouse at 6:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wow. Donald.... don't.
posted by wondermouse at 6:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The difference between the Rs and Ds is that the Rs had a long term game plan and they've been implementing it for decades.
It's entirely pathetic that so many Rs denounced Trump when he is the embodiment of their cause and goals.
They seek and have always (at least since the 60s/) sought destruction.
Dems have historically considered those kinds of tactics below them...too sophisticated to treat Rs the way the Clintons have been treated for decades...calling them out for all real and mostly made up improprieties.
It's way beyond time to start using the same tactics.
EVERY IMPROPRIETY, FAILING, MINOR SCANDAL...MUST BE MADE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE AND PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.
One of the reasons the Clintons and Dems in general have been so fucked over for so many years is because they respond to insanity with REASON and INTELLIGENCE instead of FIRING BACK. When so much depends on one's actions...every measure must be taken. None of us is too good, too intelligent, too worldly or civilized to FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE when so much is at stake.
I blame much of the South for being too proud to ever concede after the Civil War...I blame liberal/Dems for being too proud to get dirty and fight it out. Let fire beget fire, motherfuckers.
(For the record, I'm listening to Husker Du/Zen Arcade right now.)
Trump will be in office, but this shit isn't over.
posted by 1980sPunkersForHillary.com at 6:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's entirely pathetic that so many Rs denounced Trump when he is the embodiment of their cause and goals.
They seek and have always (at least since the 60s/) sought destruction.
Dems have historically considered those kinds of tactics below them...too sophisticated to treat Rs the way the Clintons have been treated for decades...calling them out for all real and mostly made up improprieties.
It's way beyond time to start using the same tactics.
EVERY IMPROPRIETY, FAILING, MINOR SCANDAL...MUST BE MADE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE AND PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.
One of the reasons the Clintons and Dems in general have been so fucked over for so many years is because they respond to insanity with REASON and INTELLIGENCE instead of FIRING BACK. When so much depends on one's actions...every measure must be taken. None of us is too good, too intelligent, too worldly or civilized to FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE when so much is at stake.
I blame much of the South for being too proud to ever concede after the Civil War...I blame liberal/Dems for being too proud to get dirty and fight it out. Let fire beget fire, motherfuckers.
(For the record, I'm listening to Husker Du/Zen Arcade right now.)
Trump will be in office, but this shit isn't over.
posted by 1980sPunkersForHillary.com at 6:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
> Welcome to Trump's America: 58 reports of people bullied by emboldened bigots — and the list is growing: (warning: auto-play video somewhere on the page, lots of images and stories of people being terrible)
Heartbreak and Outrage as Minorities Recount "Day 1 in Trump's America": Kids as young as kindergartners are being harassed across the US
posted by homunculus at 6:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Heartbreak and Outrage as Minorities Recount "Day 1 in Trump's America": Kids as young as kindergartners are being harassed across the US
posted by homunculus at 6:46 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
He's gonna keep tweeting?! I mean of course he is, but … ugh
posted by glhaynes at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by glhaynes at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
No I literally mean arrest her. It was a campaign promise and I intend to see if mr trump means it it or if he was lying. Someone needs to ask him. Did president Obama ask him? If not, what does that say about mr Obama?
posted by Chrischris at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Chrischris at 6:47 PM on November 10, 2016
Dude writes this while literally using media to incite people.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
After seeing all the incidents Shaun King and others have documented, the mere idea of the Donald complaining about the media, or anyone, "inciting" anything is like the ultimate fucking example of Trump's Mirror. Jesus wept.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
This is just the beginning. Who could take his twitter away now? Maybe in 3 years, but he just won the biggest stunner in recent memory, if not ever. The FAA just put up a flight restriction over his house. I can hear his ego inflating from Los Angeles.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is just the beginning. Who could take his twitter away now? Maybe in 3 years, but he just won the biggest stunner in recent memory, if not ever. The FAA just put up a flight restriction over his house. I can hear his ego inflating from Los Angeles.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Please do not repost horrible tweets/comments here just to prove they exist. We know they exist. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:48 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wow. Donald.... don't.
My question is do they really want it to stop or know that doing this is more likely to encourage them to keep going?
I know he was told to delegitmize them by saying they are paid and all. Question is what else are they trying to do if anything.
posted by Jalliah at 6:49 PM on November 10, 2016
My question is do they really want it to stop or know that doing this is more likely to encourage them to keep going?
I know he was told to delegitmize them by saying they are paid and all. Question is what else are they trying to do if anything.
posted by Jalliah at 6:49 PM on November 10, 2016
Once, at some games at which he was presiding, he ordered his guards to throw an entire section of the crowd into the arena during intermission to be eaten by animals because there were no criminals to be prosecuted and he was bored.
Gold-plated, classy animals. The best.
Hey will the Trump Presidential Libr*huurfsplt* Ah. *spit* Library be in Tru*huu*mp Tower?
*blarrghf*
posted by petebest at 6:49 PM on November 10, 2016
Gold-plated, classy animals. The best.
Hey will the Trump Presidential Libr*huurfsplt* Ah. *spit* Library be in Tru*huu*mp Tower?
*blarrghf*
posted by petebest at 6:49 PM on November 10, 2016
Slate's Michelle Goldberg is advocating the adoption the post-Brexit symbol of solidarity and tolerance that people began wearing, the safety pin.
I just ordered 20 "LOVE TRUMPS HATE" buttons to spread around my friend group today for exactly the same reason.
posted by mayonnaises
More like HATE(RS) LOVE TRUMP
posted by cynicalidealist at 6:50 PM on November 10, 2016
I just ordered 20 "LOVE TRUMPS HATE" buttons to spread around my friend group today for exactly the same reason.
posted by mayonnaises
More like HATE(RS) LOVE TRUMP
posted by cynicalidealist at 6:50 PM on November 10, 2016
His tweets read like an immature 2nd grader.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 PM on November 10, 2016
Nooses are popping up in South Bay in the San Jose area.
posted by Talez at 6:51 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Talez at 6:51 PM on November 10, 2016
WTF is a professional protester? Like, sign me the fuck up if I can go protest this shit and get paid for it.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
WTF is a professional protester? Like, sign me the fuck up if I can go protest this shit and get paid for it.
Yeah, my main response to that was along the lines of 'is that a thing? that's probably not a thing. I wonder what the pay would be though. I'm already doing this shit for free.'
posted by kalimac at 6:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, my main response to that was along the lines of 'is that a thing? that's probably not a thing. I wonder what the pay would be though. I'm already doing this shit for free.'
posted by kalimac at 6:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Here's to the return of the journalist as malcontent
Now a new era needs to begin, a period in which reporting takes precedent over opinion, when journalists are willing to seek out and understand people with whom they may have profound personal and philosophical differences. For decades, centuries even, that has been the definition of journalism.posted by Rumple at 6:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
That kind of reporting needs to be accompanied by a return to journalism’s oppositional roots; it has done reporters no good to think of themselves as part of the establishment or a megaphone for the conventional wisdom. We need to embrace, even relish, our legacy as malcontents and troublemakers, people who are willing to say the thing that makes everyone else uncomfortable.
How possible is it to have fewer outrage filter links to despicable breaking news events in this thread?
Make Flagging and Moving On Great Again.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Make Flagging and Moving On Great Again.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Dear President-Elect Trump, I would like to inform you that someone is signing your name to stupid tweets.
posted by zachlipton at 6:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 6:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
How possible is it to have fewer outrage filter links to despicable breaking news events in this thread?
If it's about the aftermath of the election how is it not important. Are we supposed to ignore that outrageous stuff?
posted by Jalliah at 6:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
If it's about the aftermath of the election how is it not important. Are we supposed to ignore that outrageous stuff?
posted by Jalliah at 6:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
If I had my way I'd be broadcasting these events on every channel 24/7 from here until November 3rd 2020.
That's the country we are now. We need to hold a god damned mirror up to these fuckfaces constantly and show them that this is a reflection of the country.
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's the country we are now. We need to hold a god damned mirror up to these fuckfaces constantly and show them that this is a reflection of the country.
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
The FAA just put up a flight restriction over his house.
Shit. He's been trying to divert flights from going over Mar-A-Lago for over a decade, and Florida wouldn't budge. Now he wins that battle too, doesn't he?
posted by dis_integration at 6:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Shit. He's been trying to divert flights from going over Mar-A-Lago for over a decade, and Florida wouldn't budge. Now he wins that battle too, doesn't he?
posted by dis_integration at 6:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
WTF is a professional protester?
I will bet you $100 that it's a coded slur against Black Lives Matter, etc. "These aren't real grassroots people protesting. They're paid agents of ISIS" or whatever.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I will bet you $100 that it's a coded slur against Black Lives Matter, etc. "These aren't real grassroots people protesting. They're paid agents of ISIS" or whatever.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:59 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Sad that this barely registers given all of the other "Day 1" atrocities, but Two white male Babson U students drive to Wellesley College and harrass the students, particularly those in front of the house that's the center of African American life on the campus. 40+ bias incident calls reported about it...
posted by TwoStride at 7:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 7:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
It was a campaign promise and I intend to see if mr trump means it it or if he was lying.
Can we maybe not taunt Trump into doing despicable shit? He'll do enough on his own. If he forgets a horrible campaign promise I am A-OK with that.
posted by corb at 7:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Can we maybe not taunt Trump into doing despicable shit? He'll do enough on his own. If he forgets a horrible campaign promise I am A-OK with that.
posted by corb at 7:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's probably even simpler then that. "The only reason these people are protesting is because someone is paying them. Couldn't be for any other reason. Therefore ignore them and oh yes it's totally unfair because I won fair and square. "
posted by Jalliah at 7:03 PM on November 10, 2016
Can we maybe not taunt Trump into doing despicable shit? He'll do enough on his own. If he forgets a horrible campaign promise I am A-OK with that.
Taunt carefully.
posted by ocschwar at 7:04 PM on November 10, 2016
Taunt carefully.
posted by ocschwar at 7:04 PM on November 10, 2016
Dear President-Elect Trump -
I am writing to you to apply for the position of professional protester.
Proven ability to be pissed off by racist assholes.
Extensive experience making a spectacle of myself in public.
No respect for cops or other symbols of authority.
Sincere desire to disrupt social norms and defend the rights of all the people you appear to hate.
I am available for an interview and audition at your earliest convenience.
I would prefer a position in which I am given the opportunity to break things.
I am unable to engage in the chant "hey hey, ho ho, [anything] has got to go. I hope that's not a problem.
Salary expectations: $45,000 a year minimum, health and dental, 2 weeks paid vacation, eventual stock options and advancement opportunities.
Sincerely,
crazylegs
posted by crazylegs at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I am writing to you to apply for the position of professional protester.
Proven ability to be pissed off by racist assholes.
Extensive experience making a spectacle of myself in public.
No respect for cops or other symbols of authority.
Sincere desire to disrupt social norms and defend the rights of all the people you appear to hate.
I am available for an interview and audition at your earliest convenience.
I would prefer a position in which I am given the opportunity to break things.
I am unable to engage in the chant "hey hey, ho ho, [anything] has got to go. I hope that's not a problem.
Salary expectations: $45,000 a year minimum, health and dental, 2 weeks paid vacation, eventual stock options and advancement opportunities.
Sincerely,
crazylegs
posted by crazylegs at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
This is what I believe will happen: President Trump will correct course in his optics and make cursory overtures of respect towards the rule of law (we can already see this happening in his victory speech and his meeting with Obama). Then he will continue to move forward with an agenda that will be less flamboyant than his campaign promises but barely less destructive. The Democrats will say scoldy words at times. But do people think establishment Dems are truly going to stick their necks out for our undocumented neighbors, when Obama set a record for deportations? Or for our family and friends of color, when Clinton, their candidate, crowned her career with a job killing brown people abroad?
It's a scary, scary time. I'm feeling fear on the micro level and dread on the macro level. Let's remember to hold tight to our communities and be wary of institutions that see us only as instruments.
posted by zokni at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's a scary, scary time. I'm feeling fear on the micro level and dread on the macro level. Let's remember to hold tight to our communities and be wary of institutions that see us only as instruments.
posted by zokni at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Here's to the return of the journalist as malcontent
Cheers, Columbia Journalism Review. Its a brave new world, innit.
Seriously though, Wut. "Now" a new era of journalism needs to begin? TF? Yeah I'll tell Disney and Viacom to expect your call.
Too often, the views of Trump’s followers—which is to say, the people who just elected our next president—were dismissed entirely by an establishment media whose worldview is so different, and so counter, to theirs that it became chic to belittle them and wave them off.
Cripes.
posted by petebest at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cheers, Columbia Journalism Review. Its a brave new world, innit.
Seriously though, Wut. "Now" a new era of journalism needs to begin? TF? Yeah I'll tell Disney and Viacom to expect your call.
Too often, the views of Trump’s followers—which is to say, the people who just elected our next president—were dismissed entirely by an establishment media whose worldview is so different, and so counter, to theirs that it became chic to belittle them and wave them off.
Cripes.
posted by petebest at 7:05 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, apparently the threat to imprison ones political opponents is just some rhetorical shit we can all gloss over with a nervous laugh. Fuck that. Did or did not Obama inquire about it? If not, then apparently it will be a-ok to toss a bunch of other political troublemakers in prison too. Maybe even certain #nevertrump folks who maybe have been a little too vocal, post-convention. How do you not see this?
posted by Chrischris at 7:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrischris at 7:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
My kid got in trouble today at aftercare. There was another kid boasting about how Trump won and my kid got up in his face and shouted "THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING!"
My kid also got a new Lego set today.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [132 favorites]
My kid also got a new Lego set today.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [132 favorites]
No, apparently the threat to imprison ones political opponents is just some rhetorical shit we can all gloss over with a nervous laugh. Fuck that. Did or did not Obama inquire about it? If not, then apparently it will be a-ok to toss a bunch of other political troublemakers in prison too. Maybe even certain #nevertrump folks who maybe have been a little too vocal, post-convention. How do you not see this?
We don't know exactly what they talked about. They've had one 90 minute private meeting.
posted by Jalliah at 7:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
We don't know exactly what they talked about. They've had one 90 minute private meeting.
posted by Jalliah at 7:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
oh my god his tweet
Looks like I picked the wrong 4 years to stop sniffing glue.
posted by Justinian at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Looks like I picked the wrong 4 years to stop sniffing glue.
posted by Justinian at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Not taunt Trump? Pfffff . . not taunt Trump. . . . Not. . . taunt. Trump.
Mmmmm . . taunt or not to taunt . . Sssssttt . . . mmmmm no can do.
posted by petebest at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2016
Mmmmm . . taunt or not to taunt . . Sssssttt . . . mmmmm no can do.
posted by petebest at 7:12 PM on November 10, 2016
Doktor Zed: "Slate's Michelle Goldberg is advocating the adoption the post-Brexit symbol of solidarity and tolerance that people began wearing, the safety pin."
Several people on my twitter feed are linking to IAmHoldingYourHand buttons.
Several people on my twitter feed are linking to IAmHoldingYourHand buttons.
Buy a thing. Wear a thing. Show others that you stand with them. Proceeds go to ACLU.posted by erratic meatsack at 7:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
We don't know exactly what they talked about. They've had one 90 minute private meeting.
I do know the words "Remember the 2011 White House correspondents’ dinner?" were definitely spoken.
posted by Talez at 7:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I do know the words "Remember the 2011 White House correspondents’ dinner?" were definitely spoken.
posted by Talez at 7:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I see, so apparently there wasn't any time for Barack to ask Don if he intends to arrest and jail his former Secretary of State, or if threat was just some fucking gag. It is literally the tip of the spear regarding where we as a people intend to go politically. I would hope 15 fucking seconds could have been spared for it.
posted by Chrischris at 7:14 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Chrischris at 7:14 PM on November 10, 2016
And he made that tweet at 9PM?
Imagine what we'll get out of him at 3AM.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016
Imagine what we'll get out of him at 3AM.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016
I see, so apparently there wasn't any time for Barack to ask Don if he intends to arrest and jail his former Secretary of State, or if threat was just some fucking gag. It is literally the tip of the spear regarding where we as a people intend to go politically. I would hope 15 fucking seconds could have been spared for it.
We don't know what they talked about. There's no apparently anything.
posted by Jalliah at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Megyn Kelly writes in her new book that Trump threatened her before the 1st primary debate, knew question beforehand. nytimes, excerpt tweeted by @BraddJaffy
posted by gatorae at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I just left another student community gathering, this one organized by the Black Students Association, Association of Latin American Students, and the African Youth League. People are scared and upset, but that was without a doubt the most inspiring, humbling, impressive group of students I've ever gotten to listen to. If they're hopeful and ready to fight and resist and protect each other, I don't really have any choice but to follow suit.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 7:16 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I feel like I get your point with the "why isn't Obama trying to make sure Hillary gets imprisoned?" thing and now don't need it repeated any more.
posted by glhaynes at 7:17 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by glhaynes at 7:17 PM on November 10, 2016
Megyn Kelly writes in her new book that Trump threatened her before the 1st primary debate, knew question beforehand.
This is going to be a bombshell, and only -2 days before the election. Not nearly enough time for Trump's campaign staff to do damage control.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:20 PM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
This is going to be a bombshell, and only -2 days before the election. Not nearly enough time for Trump's campaign staff to do damage control.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:20 PM on November 10, 2016 [42 favorites]
Between Megyn Kelly and the Russians saying they were chatting with the Trump campaign, it's almost as if they waited until after the election?
posted by gatorae at 7:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 7:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
For the record, the right thing to do would be to either ignore the protests (because the President routinely ignores many many protests of all sorts, we're kind of used to it) or to say something like "I said the other night that I would be President for all Americans and I mean that. Whether you voted for me or not, whether you're protesting or not, I won't stop working for you."
posted by zachlipton at 7:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 7:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
WTF is a professional protester?
That was what the guy in my fb feed was talking about. A big alt-right talking point is that according to Wikileaks, George Soros is paying people to protest (and especially to violently protest) at Trump events, to make Trump look bad. He and the other commenter said that all of those 1st Day incidents are people paid by Soros. He believes this. The only clear refutation I have is on Snopes, and I can't link it because the other alt-right creed is that Snopes is funded by Soros, so it's not valid. Would love alternative refutations, but the whole thing is such a web of circular logic I don't know how to even start.
posted by Mchelly at 7:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
That was what the guy in my fb feed was talking about. A big alt-right talking point is that according to Wikileaks, George Soros is paying people to protest (and especially to violently protest) at Trump events, to make Trump look bad. He and the other commenter said that all of those 1st Day incidents are people paid by Soros. He believes this. The only clear refutation I have is on Snopes, and I can't link it because the other alt-right creed is that Snopes is funded by Soros, so it's not valid. Would love alternative refutations, but the whole thing is such a web of circular logic I don't know how to even start.
posted by Mchelly at 7:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Guys, I'm sure Megyn Kelly just wanted to be impartial and didn't want to interfere with an election because the ethics of her profession demands that she...oh wait, I had her confused with James Comey again.
posted by zachlipton at 7:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 7:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Megyn Kelly writes in her new book that Trump threatened her before the 1st primary debate, knew question beforehand.
And she's only letting us know now that she has a book to sell.
I need to run some algorithms to find a maximally profane, non misogynistic response to this.
SO. MUCH. HATE.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
And she's only letting us know now that she has a book to sell.
I need to run some algorithms to find a maximally profane, non misogynistic response to this.
SO. MUCH. HATE.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
They only have a two seat majority, with at least three #NeverTrumpers. I don't think they will. Not when those three know what the purpose is.
More to the point, they can also look ahead and see that having Trump as the party figurehead will probably reduce Republican gains in 2018 and put the Senate within reach of the Democrats in 2020. And I would sort of expect reasonably smart and not-super-trumpy people like McCain and Collins to be at least worried about unified Democratic government in 2020.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
More to the point, they can also look ahead and see that having Trump as the party figurehead will probably reduce Republican gains in 2018 and put the Senate within reach of the Democrats in 2020. And I would sort of expect reasonably smart and not-super-trumpy people like McCain and Collins to be at least worried about unified Democratic government in 2020.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now that Trump's getting the full classified Presidential briefings, has the betting pool opened for when his first spill of classified information on Twitter will occur?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:28 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
$1 on 3AM tonight.
posted by ocschwar at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow, it's almost as if the media regularly passes questions along to candidates during the primaries and it's not some big shocking scandal or anything.
posted by xyzzy at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
More from Megyn Kelly:
posted by zachlipton at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
This is actually one of the untold stories of the 2016 campaign,” Ms. Kelly writes. “I was not the only journalist to whom Trump offered gifts clearly meant to shape coverage. Many reporters have told me that Trump worked hard to offer them something fabulous — from hotel rooms to rides on his 757.”YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DAMN TV SHOW. If you think something is an untold story of the campaign, don't wait and put it in your book. Tell it!
posted by zachlipton at 7:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [38 favorites]
Person 1: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $100!
Person 2: Mr Soros, I'll protest for $75!
Person 3: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $50!
Person 4: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $25!
Person 1: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $10!
Person 2: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $5!
Person 3: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for FREE!
Person 4: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for free AND donate my own money to progressive causes! Fuck Trump!
Persons 1-3: Yes, us too! Fuck Trump!
posted by gatorae at 7:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Person 2: Mr Soros, I'll protest for $75!
Person 3: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $50!
Person 4: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $25!
Person 1: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $10!
Person 2: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for $5!
Person 3: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for FREE!
Person 4: Mr. Soros, I'll protest for free AND donate my own money to progressive causes! Fuck Trump!
Persons 1-3: Yes, us too! Fuck Trump!
posted by gatorae at 7:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
That was what the guy in my fb feed was talking about. A big alt-right talking point is that according to Wikileaks, George Soros is paying people to protest (and especially to violently protest) at Trump events, to make Trump look bad. He and the other commenter said that all of those 1st Day incidents are people paid by Soros. He believes this. The only clear refutation I have is on Snopes, and I can't link it because the other alt-right creed is that Snopes is funded by Soros, so it's not valid. Would love alternative refutations, but the whole thing is such a web of circular logic I don't know how to even start.
You won't change their minds. No matter what you post and how many facts they will find some way to fit them into their desired narrative. If you're feel like you need to respond consider that it's not them that you are speaking too, but all of the other people that might be reading it.
posted by Jalliah at 7:34 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm looking at the near future and it looks to me like, on a national level, we're heading to an almost apartheid state with the majority Democratic coalition of coastal and big city college educated whites, african americans, and latinos essentially having almost no say over a federal government presided over by Republican non-college and suburban/rural white voters.
Think about it. Voting is becoming much more polarized and ticket splitting is becoming far less common. The Republican base voter bloc is smaller but spread out loosely over more states while the Democratic bloc is larger but more concentrated geographically in urban centers.
This has the following effects:
1) Republicans will control more State governments, which lets them gerrymander the House districts and ensure a Republican House majority even while receiving far fewer total votes than Democratic House candidates.
2) Because the Republicans dominate most of the sparsely populated but numerous states and ticket splitting is becoming rare they will eventually also maintain a large, possibly near veto proof majority in the Senate.
3) The electoral college gives disproportionate weight to Republican voters which means they can, and have twice in five elections, elect a President despite receiving fewer votes than their opponent.
4) Having control of the legislative and executive brance, they get to install ideologically friendly justices on the federal benches, up to and including the Supreme Court.
That's all three branches of federal government dominated by one party which represents a minority of the country, using the rules and even strengthening them to lock a majority out of power at the national level.
What is that if not apartheid? Yes, it's a kinder, gentler apartheid than what we saw in South Africa and the majority/minority split is 55/45 or whatever instead of 90/10 but in principle how is it any different?
posted by Justinian at 7:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
Think about it. Voting is becoming much more polarized and ticket splitting is becoming far less common. The Republican base voter bloc is smaller but spread out loosely over more states while the Democratic bloc is larger but more concentrated geographically in urban centers.
This has the following effects:
1) Republicans will control more State governments, which lets them gerrymander the House districts and ensure a Republican House majority even while receiving far fewer total votes than Democratic House candidates.
2) Because the Republicans dominate most of the sparsely populated but numerous states and ticket splitting is becoming rare they will eventually also maintain a large, possibly near veto proof majority in the Senate.
3) The electoral college gives disproportionate weight to Republican voters which means they can, and have twice in five elections, elect a President despite receiving fewer votes than their opponent.
4) Having control of the legislative and executive brance, they get to install ideologically friendly justices on the federal benches, up to and including the Supreme Court.
That's all three branches of federal government dominated by one party which represents a minority of the country, using the rules and even strengthening them to lock a majority out of power at the national level.
What is that if not apartheid? Yes, it's a kinder, gentler apartheid than what we saw in South Africa and the majority/minority split is 55/45 or whatever instead of 90/10 but in principle how is it any different?
posted by Justinian at 7:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [25 favorites]
They're Going to Shaft Us a Hundred Different Ways and Blame it All on Obama
Jonathan Chait reports that Medicare privatization is definitely on the agenda -- and it's all President Obama's fault: [...]posted by tonycpsu at 7:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
Ryan and the rest of the congressional Republicans know this will be unpopular, so the plan, apparently, is to say that they had no choice because of that awful Obamacare -- even though Republicans wanted to do this long before Obamacare was passed (even before Obama was president). [...]
Everything bad in the next four years is going to be Obama's fault. They're going to call the next recession "the Obama recession." They're going to give massive new tax cuts to the rich and blame the skyrocketing deficits on Obama. Oh, and any terror attacks on President Trump's watch will be because Obama made America weaker, even if it's four years from now and the Homeland Security secretary is an self-promoting wingnut clown like Sheriff David Clarke or Joe Arpaio. And the average American won't know any better.
Like, is it really better if you say that everyone can vote but the minority's votes are worth more than the majority's votes so they get their way than to say that the majority can't vote at all? The end result is the same.
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on November 10, 2016
WTF is a professional protester?
This is a real thing, for ratfucking and astroturfing. You pay people between 100$-200$ a day to go where you want them to go and hold the signs you want them to hold. Either you pay them to look ridiculous and go to your opponents' rallies, or you pay them to look respectable and go to yours.
But once you've started ratfucking, I imagine it's hard to tell the difference between organic and manufactured protests. Which is where these accusations are coming from, I think.
posted by corb at 7:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is a real thing, for ratfucking and astroturfing. You pay people between 100$-200$ a day to go where you want them to go and hold the signs you want them to hold. Either you pay them to look ridiculous and go to your opponents' rallies, or you pay them to look respectable and go to yours.
But once you've started ratfucking, I imagine it's hard to tell the difference between organic and manufactured protests. Which is where these accusations are coming from, I think.
posted by corb at 7:39 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
This story has so many surreal angles. We never even got a legit clean bill of health on Trump, can he even handle what's in front of him? It's easy to laugh it off and say oh yeah Obama went gray practically overnight but he worked so hard and cared so much and we know Trump won't, but pretty much the same thing has happened to every modern president. Even if he's a figurehead, there're a lot of places to show the flag. I'm not even trying to predict a health crisis or anything, but I just think it's so crazy that we're so far down the rabbit hole that pretty much any development would seem normal. It feels less like the campaign is over and things are normalizing and more like the campaign is over but instead of being through the storm, we're just in the eye, waiting for the other side to reach us and wondering about how big this whole thing really is. It feels like there are more crazy stories bubbling up right now. Who knows what's going on in tense SCIF conference rooms throughout DC and nearby if the Russia stuff really is true, just to name another example?
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:43 PM on November 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
It may be an unrepresentative democracy, but I think it's best if we don't take all meaning out of the word apartheid.
And if you were going to apply that word to the US to describe people's votes not being represented, there's no particular reason to start now: Washington DC, Puerto Rico, felon disenfranchisement, etc... have all been going on for quite some time.
posted by zachlipton at 7:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
And if you were going to apply that word to the US to describe people's votes not being represented, there's no particular reason to start now: Washington DC, Puerto Rico, felon disenfranchisement, etc... have all been going on for quite some time.
posted by zachlipton at 7:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sure, but there's a big difference between Washington D.C. and a majority of the country's votes being ignored in favor of that of a majority.
posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on November 10, 2016
I think the South African experience is something we're going to need to look closely in the next few months. Fascism in America in the second decade of the 21st century is going to look different than fascism in the third decade of the 20th in Germany.
South Africa, Spain and Portugal, Argentina come to mind as well. We have to understand how it will work here and now.
This been posted in the threads a few times now, but again it's important for us to remember Umberto Eco's article on ur-fascism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
South Africa, Spain and Portugal, Argentina come to mind as well. We have to understand how it will work here and now.
This been posted in the threads a few times now, but again it's important for us to remember Umberto Eco's article on ur-fascism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Liz Warren noted on Maddow that Howard Dean is throwing his hat in the ring for DNC chair.
YEAAAAAAARRRRGH!
(I'm still #TeamEllison, tho.)
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
YEAAAAAAARRRRGH!
(I'm still #TeamEllison, tho.)
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Algorithmically speaking, this system could allow 26% of the population to tell 74% to go pound sand.
The GOP is using the gerrymander to entrench itself like that, to the point that the system's legitimacy and credibility is starting to be threatened.
I am THIS close to asking my congresswoman to give up on DC entirely, and spend this session in New England on negotiating more interstate compacts to the point that New England will be able to just fucking secede as soon as DC itself collapses. Her agenda centers on violence against women, so realistically speaking, she should just give it up and advocate for her agenda. Not like her seat in Congress will give her much chance to actually do anything.
posted by ocschwar at 7:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The GOP is using the gerrymander to entrench itself like that, to the point that the system's legitimacy and credibility is starting to be threatened.
I am THIS close to asking my congresswoman to give up on DC entirely, and spend this session in New England on negotiating more interstate compacts to the point that New England will be able to just fucking secede as soon as DC itself collapses. Her agenda centers on violence against women, so realistically speaking, she should just give it up and advocate for her agenda. Not like her seat in Congress will give her much chance to actually do anything.
posted by ocschwar at 7:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Medicare privatization is definitely on the agenda
How does that change for those of us on Medicare who use a Private HMO in order to get Prescription Coverage?
Howard Dean is throwing his hat in the ring for DNC chair.
Didn't he have that job before for 15 minutes?
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
How does that change for those of us on Medicare who use a Private HMO in order to get Prescription Coverage?
Howard Dean is throwing his hat in the ring for DNC chair.
Didn't he have that job before for 15 minutes?
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
You know, it may have just been that Trump's doctor is a crank and that Trump is arrogant, but there's an alternative explanation for the fact that no real health report was released: maybe he couldn't pass any genuine physical. That wouldn't necessarily be good news, of course; Pence or any other successor would likely be worse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
It may be an unrepresentative democracy, but I think it's best if we don't take all meaning out of the word apartheid
Not least because we'll need to save it for if/when the GOP tries to institute actual apartheid.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not least because we'll need to save it for if/when the GOP tries to institute actual apartheid.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:00 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
With regard to the popular vote, there's still around 4.6 million ballots left to count here in CA. Thank goodness we never decide Presidential elections by a close margin, because you all would be waiting a darn long time to find out.
posted by zachlipton at 8:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 8:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Howard Dean is throwing his hat in the ring for DNC chair.
Didn't he have that job before for 15 minutes?
Well, four years. During which he won back the House and Senate and helped get Barack Obama elected.
So, y'know. There's that.
I still like Keith Ellison, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
Didn't he have that job before for 15 minutes?
Well, four years. During which he won back the House and Senate and helped get Barack Obama elected.
So, y'know. There's that.
I still like Keith Ellison, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [27 favorites]
Wasn't Dean chair when Ellison won office as Representative?
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:06 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:06 PM on November 10, 2016
There's a decent chance Pence is going to be running the country anyways. Or one of Trump's other incompetent cronies. If we're looking for a past model as an example, think of Reagan's last 3 or 4 years. There's a power vacuum at the top, due to the President's weakness, that everyone's scrambling to fill. The losers will write some very interesting tell-alls. The winners will be doing absolutely strange things like using astrologers to determine policy choices.
posted by honestcoyote at 8:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by honestcoyote at 8:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Vox [Matthew Yglesias]: The whole Democratic Party is now a smoking pile of rubble
The down-ballot party has withered, and Obama’s policy legacy will be largely repealed.posted by ZeusHumms at 8:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's all three branches of federal government dominated by one party which represents a minority of the country, using the rules and even strengthening them to lock a majority out of power at the national level.
You know, I'd wondered since I took a class in college just how crushing the end of Reconstruction would have felt to the people who lived through it. (I will never forgive Joss Whedon for using the Lost Cause mythos for Firefly rather than the far more interesting reality.)
I really, really never hoped to find out.
Remember how we'd all thought last week that this would be the end of the Republican party?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
You know, I'd wondered since I took a class in college just how crushing the end of Reconstruction would have felt to the people who lived through it. (I will never forgive Joss Whedon for using the Lost Cause mythos for Firefly rather than the far more interesting reality.)
I really, really never hoped to find out.
Remember how we'd all thought last week that this would be the end of the Republican party?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:10 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Belatedly, JoeyMichaels: my anti-hypocrisy evangelical friends are beginning with calling out white evangelicals for failing at The Greatest Commandment and going from there....
posted by TwoStride at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Remember how we'd all thought last week that this would be the end of the Republican party?
Remember how many times I wrote "no because the Republicans own everything but the presidency"?
posted by Talez at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Remember how many times I wrote "no because the Republicans own everything but the presidency"?
posted by Talez at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Joe Romm: Will Trump go down in history as the man who pulled the plug on a livable climate? The fate of humanity is in the hands of a denier who pledged to kill domestic and global climate action and all clean energy research.
posted by homunculus at 8:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 8:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Ugh, ugh. Kellyanne Conway is insinuating that she's being offered a White House job.
I forgot how much I was looking forward to never having to hear her bold, glib lies ever again.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I forgot how much I was looking forward to never having to hear her bold, glib lies ever again.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:14 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Joe Romm: Will Trump go down in history as the man who pulled the plug on a livable climate? The fate of humanity is in the hands of a denier who pledged to kill domestic and global climate action and all clean energy research.
One of things I've seen people discussing is if it's possible to get him to come round because if he doesn't, he will go down in history as that man.
And this may be one way of tackling it. Go after him using his ego. " Do you want to be remembered forever this way? etc etc. "
posted by Jalliah at 8:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
One of things I've seen people discussing is if it's possible to get him to come round because if he doesn't, he will go down in history as that man.
And this may be one way of tackling it. Go after him using his ego. " Do you want to be remembered forever this way? etc etc. "
posted by Jalliah at 8:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and on the topic of better allies: one small delight has been seeing no small number of my Korean evangelical friends just utterly shredding the hypocrisy--copious pertinent Biblical verses and all--of the White evangelical voters...
I was going to say, thanks for this TwoStride.
Would dearly love to watch a Korean seminarian drag some American-Christian dumbass behind the theological toolshed and just go Biblical on their ass.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was going to say, thanks for this TwoStride.
Would dearly love to watch a Korean seminarian drag some American-Christian dumbass behind the theological toolshed and just go Biblical on their ass.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:22 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Kellyanne is clearly going to be the Press Secretary. I fully anticipate briefings full of praise for the "great deals" Trump made with fictional countries like Genovia, or Arendelle, or Wakanda...
posted by TwoStride at 8:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Luke 4 and Ephesians 5:1-20 also getting referenced a lot.
posted by TwoStride at 8:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:24 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's easy to laugh it off and say oh yeah Obama went gray practically overnight but he worked so hard and cared so much and we know Trump won't, but pretty much the same thing has happened to every modern president.
We saw those photos from the Oval Office. Perhaps scarier than the thought of 2020 -- though Sarah Kendzior, who may be a Cassandra here but is on a good run, says don't think in terms of future elections -- is the thought of what the age-a-decade-in-a-term job of being president may do on an overweight 70-year-old with a junk food diet. Quickly.
Remember how we'd all thought last week that this would be the end of the Republican party?
It is, just not immediately. Ironically, given that Romney lost, it's a leveraged buyout. How much asset stripping happens is yet to be determined.
posted by holgate at 8:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
We saw those photos from the Oval Office. Perhaps scarier than the thought of 2020 -- though Sarah Kendzior, who may be a Cassandra here but is on a good run, says don't think in terms of future elections -- is the thought of what the age-a-decade-in-a-term job of being president may do on an overweight 70-year-old with a junk food diet. Quickly.
Remember how we'd all thought last week that this would be the end of the Republican party?
It is, just not immediately. Ironically, given that Romney lost, it's a leveraged buyout. How much asset stripping happens is yet to be determined.
posted by holgate at 8:25 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
And this may be one way of tackling it. Go after him using his ego. " Do you want to be remembered forever this way? etc etc. "
At this rate, forever isn't going to be very long from now.
posted by gatorae at 8:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
At this rate, forever isn't going to be very long from now.
posted by gatorae at 8:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Will Trump go down in history as the man who pulled the plug on a livable climate?
You can't go down in history if nobody's left to write the history. I concluded we were doomed (and I personally committed to NOT bringing any children into the world) after seeing James Burke's 'After the Warming'. It showed a much too linear process of Climate Change, which gave deniers opportunities to refute it, but otherwise it was near perfect. But when Reagan had the solar panels torn off the White House, he committed to dooming us all. Every President since has either done nothing or too-little-too-late. Trump accelerating the process just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can't go down in history if nobody's left to write the history. I concluded we were doomed (and I personally committed to NOT bringing any children into the world) after seeing James Burke's 'After the Warming'. It showed a much too linear process of Climate Change, which gave deniers opportunities to refute it, but otherwise it was near perfect. But when Reagan had the solar panels torn off the White House, he committed to dooming us all. Every President since has either done nothing or too-little-too-late. Trump accelerating the process just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can we maybe not taunt Trump into doing despicable shit? He'll do enough on his own. If he forgets a horrible campaign promise I am A-OK with that.
posted by corb at 10:03 PM on November 10 [8 favorites +] [!]
...aaaaand we're treating him like a a menacing dictator rather than a president already, aren't we?
Christ, he's gonna loooove being President, isn't he?
posted by Chrischris at 8:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:03 PM on November 10 [8 favorites +] [!]
...aaaaand we're treating him like a a menacing dictator rather than a president already, aren't we?
Christ, he's gonna loooove being President, isn't he?
posted by Chrischris at 8:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
So which Obama image should we use for the inevitable "MISS ME YET?" memes?
I'm thinking this one or maybe this one.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm thinking this one or maybe this one.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:29 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Christ, he's gonna loooove being President, isn't he?
Until February.
posted by holgate at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Until February.
posted by holgate at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
Yes?
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes?
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
At this rate, forever isn't going to be very long from now.
I know and that's a depressing part. He's too stupid to know that though.
posted by Jalliah at 8:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know and that's a depressing part. He's too stupid to know that though.
posted by Jalliah at 8:32 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't get over the fact that Trump went to the White House today and told the media that the meeting with Obama wasn't supposed to take longer than "10-15 minutes" and seemed amazed that they had enough to talk about to fill 90 minutes. Nothing should surprise me anymore, but that is just indicative of so, so much.
posted by gatorae at 8:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 8:33 PM on November 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I've mentioned before that post-Obama/post-Clintons, where the smaller weaker Democratic Party has made its only gains so far is where the MORE Progressive, LESS Moderate candidates won. The gains in the Senate, inadequate as they were, were ALL very Liberal candidates (and all women). The Moderates and Men all struck out.
just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
Yes?
Sorry just a cheap shot from a Californian with a 30-meter bluff between me and the current waterline. (It's awesome how much of our coast has them... neener, neener)
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:34 PM on November 10, 2016
just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
Yes?
Sorry just a cheap shot from a Californian with a 30-meter bluff between me and the current waterline. (It's awesome how much of our coast has them... neener, neener)
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:34 PM on November 10, 2016
just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
Optimistic: "The republicans lied about climate change, now my whole city is gone! I'll never let anyone I know vote for those cheats again!"
Realistic: "Those democrats used SCIENCE to raise the sea level and destroy my town just to trick me, but I still know climate change is fake! I'll never let anyone I know vote for those cheats again!"
posted by fomhar at 8:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Optimistic: "The republicans lied about climate change, now my whole city is gone! I'll never let anyone I know vote for those cheats again!"
Realistic: "Those democrats used SCIENCE to raise the sea level and destroy my town just to trick me, but I still know climate change is fake! I'll never let anyone I know vote for those cheats again!"
posted by fomhar at 8:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Christ, he's gonna loooove being President, isn't he?
Until February.
Nah, we handed him the most important job in the world. He has great experience in failing upward, and now he will have the entire vast Machinery of State working to make sure he doesn't lose it.
posted by Chrischris at 8:36 PM on November 10, 2016
I can't get over the fact that Trump went to the White House today and told the media that the meeting with Obama wasn't supposed to take longer than "10-15 minutes" and seemed amazed that they had enough to talk about to fill 90 minutes.
The bad news is Trump was accurately measuring his attention span so Obama wasted most of his time.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
The bad news is Trump was accurately measuring his attention span so Obama wasted most of his time.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:37 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Why is everyone #TeamEllison again? Bernie's progressive platform didn't work out so well and Colorado rejected single payer like woah. The only thing I know about Ellison is that he's Muslim and has been repeatedly fined and sued over campaign finance violations. What am I missing here?
posted by xyzzy at 8:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 8:38 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
just brings us closer to the flooding of Florida (and is that such a bad thing?)
The flooding of Florida has already started. Which just makes the whole climate change is just hoax thing of the GOP just so much more bizzare. It's in front of your face! You're literally walking in it!
Nope. NOT HAPPENING
posted by Jalliah at 8:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
The flooding of Florida has already started. Which just makes the whole climate change is just hoax thing of the GOP just so much more bizzare. It's in front of your face! You're literally walking in it!
Nope. NOT HAPPENING
posted by Jalliah at 8:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Donald Trump pledges to dismantle Dodd-Frank Act
[...] US bank stocks climbed for a second straight day on Thursday as investors bet a Trump presidency will lead to less regulation and sideline industry critics in Congress led by Senator Elizabeth Warren.posted by Joe in Australia at 8:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
The 24-company KBW Bank Index advanced 3 percent at 3:16 p.m. in New York, led by Wells Fargo & Co., which rose 7.4 percent. Bank of America Corp. advanced 4.5 percent, while JPMorgan Chase & Co. climbed 4.4 percent.
Realistic: "Those democrats used SCIENCE to raise the sea level and destroy my town just to trick me, but I still know climate change is fake! I'll never let anyone I know vote for those cheats again!"
Even more realistic: un-self-aware turnaround - "I *always* knew climate change was a problem, but those democrats were always pushing idiotic useless plans and it was us that actually did anything productive about it"
At a certain point people move away from unsuppoortable reasons why up is down and gradually conclude that they had always been on the correct side, and the conflict back in the day was just because those other idiots were going about it wrong.
posted by anonymisc at 8:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Even more realistic: un-self-aware turnaround - "I *always* knew climate change was a problem, but those democrats were always pushing idiotic useless plans and it was us that actually did anything productive about it"
At a certain point people move away from unsuppoortable reasons why up is down and gradually conclude that they had always been on the correct side, and the conflict back in the day was just because those other idiots were going about it wrong.
posted by anonymisc at 8:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe the banks will forgive his debts now.
posted by airish at 8:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by airish at 8:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The only thing I know about Ellison is that he's Muslim and has been repeatedly fined and sued over campaign finance violations. What am I missing here?
I've never heard about any campaign finance violations, and the only relevant issue that turned up in the first few pages of a google search was a single complaint from 2003 about an undisclosed vendor payment, which didn't seem to result in any disciplinary action. Is this "repeatedly fined and sued" thing coming from conservative talk radio or something?
posted by zokni at 8:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've never heard about any campaign finance violations, and the only relevant issue that turned up in the first few pages of a google search was a single complaint from 2003 about an undisclosed vendor payment, which didn't seem to result in any disciplinary action. Is this "repeatedly fined and sued" thing coming from conservative talk radio or something?
posted by zokni at 8:49 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
At a certain point people move away from unsuppoortable reasons why up is down and gradually conclude that they had always been on the correct side, and the conflict back in the day was just because those other idiots were going about it wrong.
I'll take that. Don't care at this point if he 180s, lies about what he really meant and blames it on someone else. As long as it leads to doing something. He could get up there and ramble on about being so smart and knowing that his party and supporters wouldn't accept it during the campaign but he has the best brain and knows how important it is so he did what is best for everyone and now he is here to save the world because he is the best man that every lived ever ever and this will make him go down in history as the savior of the entire human race and I would be all 'yay Donny boy whatever floats your boat. Go save the world, please and thank you"
posted by Jalliah at 8:51 PM on November 10, 2016
I'll take that. Don't care at this point if he 180s, lies about what he really meant and blames it on someone else. As long as it leads to doing something. He could get up there and ramble on about being so smart and knowing that his party and supporters wouldn't accept it during the campaign but he has the best brain and knows how important it is so he did what is best for everyone and now he is here to save the world because he is the best man that every lived ever ever and this will make him go down in history as the savior of the entire human race and I would be all 'yay Donny boy whatever floats your boat. Go save the world, please and thank you"
posted by Jalliah at 8:51 PM on November 10, 2016
Donald Trump pledges to dismantle Dodd-Frank Act
He's won the election. He has no reason to lie now. Anything he says now, you have to assume he means.
All those idiot white middle earners that voted for Trump. As literally his first idea off the bat, Trump is going to make it far easier for your banks to screw you. I mean, banking deregulation (and the resulting GFC) was the cause of all your 'economic anxiety' in the first place.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
He's won the election. He has no reason to lie now. Anything he says now, you have to assume he means.
All those idiot white middle earners that voted for Trump. As literally his first idea off the bat, Trump is going to make it far easier for your banks to screw you. I mean, banking deregulation (and the resulting GFC) was the cause of all your 'economic anxiety' in the first place.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:52 PM on November 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
I can't get over the fact that Trump went to the White House today and told the media that the meeting with Obama wasn't supposed to take longer than "10-15 minutes" and seemed amazed that they had enough to talk about to fill 90 minutes. Nothing should surprise me anymore, but that is just indicative of so, so much.
I mean, does he have any sense at all of the hours this job entails, every damn day? That must've been included in the Monster.com ad. The thing that has just flabbergasted me about all his pissy anti-SNL, anti-protest, anti-whatever tweets is that he is apparently so disengaged from or unaware of the world that either he has never bothered to notice that a key part of the President's job description is "constantly get criticized publicly by everybody everywhere without having tantrums" or, more likely, he never considered that people would dare to do it to HIM.
Shit, the most striking thing about the 2011 Correspondents' Dinner is that he sat there and heard approximately 97 different public people, including the President, made the subject of jokes-- and was just totally unable to cope with being one of them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
I mean, does he have any sense at all of the hours this job entails, every damn day? That must've been included in the Monster.com ad. The thing that has just flabbergasted me about all his pissy anti-SNL, anti-protest, anti-whatever tweets is that he is apparently so disengaged from or unaware of the world that either he has never bothered to notice that a key part of the President's job description is "constantly get criticized publicly by everybody everywhere without having tantrums" or, more likely, he never considered that people would dare to do it to HIM.
Shit, the most striking thing about the 2011 Correspondents' Dinner is that he sat there and heard approximately 97 different public people, including the President, made the subject of jokes-- and was just totally unable to cope with being one of them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:53 PM on November 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
From Bloomberg:
Seriously.
WHAT.
Comey gave us Trump. And the emails-crazy media made it happen.
I think the talk of a Hatch Act violation is right on. I think we dismissed it because the polls seemed to show the revelation had no impact.
Unbelievable.
posted by dis_integration at 8:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
Trump’s analysts had detected this upsurge in the electorate even before FBI Director James Comey delivered his Oct. 28 letter to Congress announcing that he was reopening his investigation into Clinton’s e-mails. But the news of the investigation accelerated the shift of a largely hidden rural mass of voters toward Trump.WHAT.
Seriously.
WHAT.
Comey gave us Trump. And the emails-crazy media made it happen.
I think the talk of a Hatch Act violation is right on. I think we dismissed it because the polls seemed to show the revelation had no impact.
Unbelievable.
posted by dis_integration at 8:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
I can't get over the fact that Trump went to the White House today and told the media that the meeting with Obama wasn't supposed to take longer than "10-15 minutes"
And that apparently was a lie, or (charitably) at least inaccurate. The press there was told not to bother setting up for the photo-op until 30 mins after he had arrived.
Why lie about something like that? Because no one paying any attention should ever feel too confident that they can actually get any truth. We will be hearing lies about everything, however inconsequential.
posted by Golem XIV at 8:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
And that apparently was a lie, or (charitably) at least inaccurate. The press there was told not to bother setting up for the photo-op until 30 mins after he had arrived.
Why lie about something like that? Because no one paying any attention should ever feel too confident that they can actually get any truth. We will be hearing lies about everything, however inconsequential.
posted by Golem XIV at 8:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump Presidency Could Be Worth $14 Billion to His Troubled Lender
While the Justice Department’s unusual public announcement of a $14 billion settlement request was largely a public relations maneuver — if it followed past trends, much of the fine would not be in cash but “credits” that could be satisfied through routine actions — it was so much more than Deutsche Bank reserved for legal expenses that it set off a near-collapse at the bank. The stock price plummeted, hedge funds began to pull money out, and credit default swaps, basically insurance against Deutsche Bank’s default, soared in price.posted by tonycpsu at 8:56 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Deutsche Bank vowed to negotiate over the proposed fine, and within the past couple weeks they’ve said that they’ve made good progress. But Trump’s election throws the negotiations into confusion.
There’s simply no good reason for Deutsche Bank to agree to DOJ’s terms now, when a new administration will take over in a couple months, headed by a man who owes Deutsche Bank a lot of money. Trump’s debt with Deutsche is also negotiable in its own right, giving each side plenty of incentive to make a deal. Deutsche could get a free pass on its legal cases – of which the mortgage securities fraud is just one – while Trump could get better terms for his debts.
Deutsche Bank could threaten to cut off business with Trump — a powerful spur for the president-elect to give them favorable treatment.
Investors have taken notice. Deutsche Bank stock jumped over 5 percent as the market opened Thursday, after rising more modestly on Wednesday.
He's won the election. He has no reason to lie now. Anything he says now, you have to assume he means.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:52 PM on November 10 [+] [!]
We have not been given any reason to believe his statements on the campaign trail were lies either. What campaign promise or promises has he publicly walked back? Name one.
posted by Chrischris at 8:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:52 PM on November 10 [+] [!]
We have not been given any reason to believe his statements on the campaign trail were lies either. What campaign promise or promises has he publicly walked back? Name one.
posted by Chrischris at 8:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was born the summer Nixon resigned. As a kid I was the very definition of precocious. I absorbed media constantly to the point that by age 8 I could not only tell you what years certain records and movies came out, I had a "sense" of the eras they came out in. I read the newspaper to my grams at 3. I wanted to be older. Always older. It's always been a piece of how I understand the world and is probably why I became a designer. The reason I bring this up is because even as a young child I "felt" Watergate draped over the late 70s. It was a common punchline and threaded through much of pop culture.
In the 80s I came of age to Cold War propaganda. Red Dawn, Rambo, et al. But moreso the nuclear war films like the infinitely heartbreaking Testament, the jarring Day After and the horrific you'll-never-sleep-again Threads. I had the frequent nuclear holocaust nightmares common to kids my age. Several times a week.
When I was 26, 9/11 happened. It reached out from the bland porridge of the early aughts and plunged us instantly into darkness. Those were the hardest years. Back when people lost jobs for having opinions contrary to the public rush to war. Dissent was stifled. Fear lurked and permeated everything.
So now we have this. An election. An election we technically won and I am sorry to say it feels worse than any and all of the above. I've literally never seen this pain in people before. And it's gutted me.
I am heartbroken. I am furious.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
In the 80s I came of age to Cold War propaganda. Red Dawn, Rambo, et al. But moreso the nuclear war films like the infinitely heartbreaking Testament, the jarring Day After and the horrific you'll-never-sleep-again Threads. I had the frequent nuclear holocaust nightmares common to kids my age. Several times a week.
When I was 26, 9/11 happened. It reached out from the bland porridge of the early aughts and plunged us instantly into darkness. Those were the hardest years. Back when people lost jobs for having opinions contrary to the public rush to war. Dissent was stifled. Fear lurked and permeated everything.
So now we have this. An election. An election we technically won and I am sorry to say it feels worse than any and all of the above. I've literally never seen this pain in people before. And it's gutted me.
I am heartbroken. I am furious.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
What campaign promise or promises has he publicly walked back? Name one.
I mean... are you trolling?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean... are you trolling?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is the darkest thread on the front page right now, so some good news- Chinese scientists achieve [minor] breakthrough with nuclear fusion reactor
posted by Apocryphon at 9:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:01 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
What campaign promise or promises has he publicly walked back? Name one.
Are you fucking kidding? He spent the whole campaign contradicting himself. Here's six minutes of uninterrupted video him doing it.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Are you fucking kidding? He spent the whole campaign contradicting himself. Here's six minutes of uninterrupted video him doing it.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:03 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
oh, not his lies, silly. His policies!
What I'm saying is that, unless he is either too old or too tired for term 2, we will have something resembling a wall at the Mexican border, we will have a ban on Muslim immigration, we will see Hillary Clinton at least charged with some sort of national security crime, we will see NAFTA either suspended or modified. Those are the mandatory minimums he needs to do if he or his "movement" is to survive.
posted by Chrischris at 9:05 PM on November 10, 2016
What I'm saying is that, unless he is either too old or too tired for term 2, we will have something resembling a wall at the Mexican border, we will have a ban on Muslim immigration, we will see Hillary Clinton at least charged with some sort of national security crime, we will see NAFTA either suspended or modified. Those are the mandatory minimums he needs to do if he or his "movement" is to survive.
posted by Chrischris at 9:05 PM on November 10, 2016
Why is everyone #TeamEllison again?
It's not about policy, it's about organisation: it's about a presence in every district, a challenger in every district, an ongoing opposition in every district before election season begins. It is about knowing you're not alone. And since Ellison was early in identifying the threat of [future white house occupant] maybe he has the capacity. I don't massively mind Dean declaring for this -- though Vermont is not where we are here, because Vermont is so so white -- but I would be okay with Ellison at the front and also for Dean to have some input on the implementation of 50-state strategy of the mid-00s. (The counterargument is that the 50-state strategy delivered too many Blue Dogs. That's moot until the 2020 census.)
Anyway, that's the process argument. The anti-process argument is that there needs to be a visible viable resistance.
posted by holgate at 9:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's not about policy, it's about organisation: it's about a presence in every district, a challenger in every district, an ongoing opposition in every district before election season begins. It is about knowing you're not alone. And since Ellison was early in identifying the threat of [future white house occupant] maybe he has the capacity. I don't massively mind Dean declaring for this -- though Vermont is not where we are here, because Vermont is so so white -- but I would be okay with Ellison at the front and also for Dean to have some input on the implementation of 50-state strategy of the mid-00s. (The counterargument is that the 50-state strategy delivered too many Blue Dogs. That's moot until the 2020 census.)
Anyway, that's the process argument. The anti-process argument is that there needs to be a visible viable resistance.
posted by holgate at 9:07 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DAMN TV SHOW. If you think something is an untold story of the campaign, don't wait and put it in your book. Tell it!
Pfft, for free?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pfft, for free?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:08 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please don't forget Anthony Fucking Weiner.
I mean, Weiner is a shitlord but it's not his fault that Comey wrote that letter to Congress and helped destroy a nation.
posted by dis_integration at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I mean, Weiner is a shitlord but it's not his fault that Comey wrote that letter to Congress and helped destroy a nation.
posted by dis_integration at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Stop conflating the word salad he has been offering up in the media with the actual, straight up promises he made at his rallies. Those are the things he will do, because those are the things White America heard him promise he will do. And now that the Republicans control all the levers of power, there will be no resistance that can stop him. To resist or impede is to be primaried (or worse); his subsumption of the party means that his is the only gateway to power. He's already captured the Republican party in a dictatorial manner; now we're about to see him try to leverage that across the entire political landscape.
posted by Chrischris at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrischris at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Still crazed about the world? Time for a music break! Two new tracks from the Hamilton Mixtape (which can be discussed in this thread):
Satisfied (Sia feat. Miguel & Queen Latifah) (Lyrics)
Immigrants (We Get The Job Done) (K'naan, featuring Residente, Riz MC, & Snow Tha Product) (Lyrics)
posted by zachlipton at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Satisfied (Sia feat. Miguel & Queen Latifah) (Lyrics)
Immigrants (We Get The Job Done) (K'naan, featuring Residente, Riz MC, & Snow Tha Product) (Lyrics)
posted by zachlipton at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
National Day of Civil Disruption: 1/20/17, during the administering of the Oath of Office, a national horn-blaring, noise making campaign is something that could catch a little symbolic fire. It may be the equivalent of a kid plugging their ears and going nanny-nanny-boo-boo, but at least in that moment, they had a little fleeting feeling of power. Just a thought.
posted by moonbird at 9:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by moonbird at 9:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
So another discussion about climate change that even just a few days ago you would laugh at just being crazy talk.
Summary: Well maybe Putin will persuade him to do something. Wow can't believe I just said that. Well Trump seems to thinks he's great and wants to be friends so you never know. We can hope I guess. Go Putin! OMG I can't believe we're having a conversation about hoping that Putin will make an American President to do something. What has happen to this world? It's all upside down!
posted by Jalliah at 9:12 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is this "repeatedly fined and sued" thing coming from conservative talk radio or something?The Washington Post. He was sued by the Attorney General of Minnesota twice for campaign finance violations and was repeatedly fined by the Minnesota Board of Elections for failing to turn in paperwork or respond to notices to file amendments to disclosures. I would appreciate it if you would assume that I am posting in good faith and not repeating Rush Limbaugh talking points.
posted by xyzzy at 9:13 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I'm saying is that, unless he is either too old or too tired for term 2, we will have something resembling a wall at the Mexican border, we will have a ban on Muslim immigration, we will see Hillary Clinton at least charged with some sort of national security crime, we will see NAFTA either suspended or modified. Those are the mandatory minimums he needs to do if he or his "movement" is to survive.
This isn't news or anything that hasn't been discussed here for months. These things are all part of the reasons that people are so upset.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2016
This isn't news or anything that hasn't been discussed here for months. These things are all part of the reasons that people are so upset.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2016
I mean, Weiner is a shitlord but it's not his fault that Comey wrote that letter to Congress and helped destroy a nation.
Weiner was a democratic politician closely linked to a potential Clinton administration. He absolutely knew the sort of danger he was creating every time he sexted some teenager. He probably got off on it. So yeah, he can go to hell.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Weiner was a democratic politician closely linked to a potential Clinton administration. He absolutely knew the sort of danger he was creating every time he sexted some teenager. He probably got off on it. So yeah, he can go to hell.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:18 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
And now that the Republicans control all the levers of power, there will be no resistance that can stop him.
It's worth pointing out that McConnell has already promised to obstruct at least some of the things on Trump's 100 day plan.
posted by Archelaus at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that McConnell has already promised to obstruct at least some of the things on Trump's 100 day plan.
posted by Archelaus at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Washington Post.
Link? This is the first I've heard of this, and my googling isn't turning anything up.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016
Link? This is the first I've heard of this, and my googling isn't turning anything up.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016
I can't get over the fact that Trump went to the White House today and told the media that the meeting with Obama wasn't supposed to take longer than "10-15 minutes"
And that apparently was a lie, or (charitably) at least inaccurate. The press there was told not to bother setting up for the photo-op until 30 mins after he had arrived.
Don't you reckon one of his people told him it would be like ten, fifteen minutes, tops, boss. Doesn't he seem the type who is always so busy, his time is so valuable etc etc that everything must be the least inconvenience to him possible.
posted by glitter at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
And that apparently was a lie, or (charitably) at least inaccurate. The press there was told not to bother setting up for the photo-op until 30 mins after he had arrived.
Don't you reckon one of his people told him it would be like ten, fifteen minutes, tops, boss. Doesn't he seem the type who is always so busy, his time is so valuable etc etc that everything must be the least inconvenience to him possible.
posted by glitter at 9:21 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
This isn't news or anything that hasn't been discussed here for months. These things are all part of the reasons that people are so upset.
posted by Jalliah at 12:16 AM on November 11 [+] [!]
yes, but there seems to be a lingering disbelief that he'll actually do them. As if their inherent ridiculousness somehow pushes them out of the realm of possibility. As if, because we are so used to Trump's lies and rhetorical spew, we can comfortably ignore the reality that: he will really actually do these things. You all keep talking about what you think Trump is saying, but the truth is what matters is what Trump's Base has heard him say. They are two different sets of things. One is bluster to be laughed off; the other is real, dire, actionable shit that will get done.
posted by Chrischris at 9:22 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by Jalliah at 12:16 AM on November 11 [+] [!]
yes, but there seems to be a lingering disbelief that he'll actually do them. As if their inherent ridiculousness somehow pushes them out of the realm of possibility. As if, because we are so used to Trump's lies and rhetorical spew, we can comfortably ignore the reality that: he will really actually do these things. You all keep talking about what you think Trump is saying, but the truth is what matters is what Trump's Base has heard him say. They are two different sets of things. One is bluster to be laughed off; the other is real, dire, actionable shit that will get done.
posted by Chrischris at 9:22 PM on November 10, 2016
aaaaand we're treating him like a a menacing dictator rather than a president already, aren't
Unlike I guess some other people, I never had any illusions he would be anything else.
posted by corb at 9:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
Unlike I guess some other people, I never had any illusions he would be anything else.
posted by corb at 9:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [28 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that McConnell has already promised to obstruct at least some of the things on Trump's 100 day plan.
Until the afternoon 500 armed white Patriots show up on the Steps of the Senate to lobby the good senator and help persuade him to support the duly elected president. You laugh, perhaps, but I fucking guarantee those guys are only a phone call and a few thousand in travel expenses away.
posted by Chrischris at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Until the afternoon 500 armed white Patriots show up on the Steps of the Senate to lobby the good senator and help persuade him to support the duly elected president. You laugh, perhaps, but I fucking guarantee those guys are only a phone call and a few thousand in travel expenses away.
posted by Chrischris at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Someone close to a friend of ours just committed suicide tonight. We're less than 48 hours into this.
posted by limeonaire at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
...aaaaand we're treating him like a a menacing dictator rather than a president already, aren't we?
For my part, I swapped to that stance around the time he threatened to jail political opponents in live debate.
posted by Archelaus at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
For my part, I swapped to that stance around the time he threatened to jail political opponents in live debate.
posted by Archelaus at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
yes, but there seems to be a lingering disbelief that he'll actually do them. As if their inherent ridiculousness somehow pushes them out of the realm of possibility. As if, because we are so used to Trump's lies and rhetorical spew, we can comfortably ignore the reality that: he will really actually do these things. You all keep talking about what you think Trump is saying, but the truth is what matters is what Trump's Base has heard him say. They are two different sets of things. One is bluster to be laughed off; the other is real, dire, actionable shit that will get done.
The few snippets I've managed to stomach of Chris Matthews after the election have been like this: now that the campaign is over, what does Trump really believe, and what will he really do? Maybe he'll be the next Tip O'Neill! Hubba hubba!
The night of the election Rachel Maddow practically had to spell out for him that Trump meant all the horrible shit he said and did. That's who he is. And Matthews still didn't get it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
The few snippets I've managed to stomach of Chris Matthews after the election have been like this: now that the campaign is over, what does Trump really believe, and what will he really do? Maybe he'll be the next Tip O'Neill! Hubba hubba!
The night of the election Rachel Maddow practically had to spell out for him that Trump meant all the horrible shit he said and did. That's who he is. And Matthews still didn't get it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
yes, but there seems to be a lingering disbelief that he'll actually do them. As if their inherent ridiculousness somehow pushes them out of the realm of possibility. As if, because we are so used to Trump's lies and rhetorical spew, we can comfortably ignore the reality that: he will really actually do these things. You all keep talking about what you think Trump is saying, but the truth is what matters is what Trump's Base has heard him say. They are two different sets of things. One is bluster to be laughed off; the other is real, dire, actionable shit that will get done.
You're right it is two different things and just because the conversation is about one of those things doesn't mean that people don't get the other thing. I'm not sure where you're getting that people are ignoring reality.
posted by Jalliah at 9:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
You're right it is two different things and just because the conversation is about one of those things doesn't mean that people don't get the other thing. I'm not sure where you're getting that people are ignoring reality.
posted by Jalliah at 9:27 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is the darkest thread on the front page right now, so some good news- Chinese scientists achieve [minor] breakthrough with nuclear fusion reactor
posted by Apocryphon at 9:01 PM on November 10
Finally fusion power is just 10 yrs away!
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
National Day of Civil Disruption: 1/20/17, during the administering of the Oath of Office, a national horn-blaring, noise making campaign is something that could catch a little symbolic fire. It may be the equivalent of a kid plugging their ears and going nanny-nanny-boo-boo, but at least in that moment, they had a little fleeting feeling of power. Just a thought.
Some of the progenitors of the Tea Party movement on at least one occasion got a train whistle and mounted it on a pickup truck for this sort of protest.
posted by XMLicious at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2016
yeah, but here we are, kind of laughing that shit off, in this very thread.
Once again, I ask, why has nobody inquired with Pres. Obama if he discussed Secretary Clinton with Mr. Trump today.
Who is laughing it off? It's been asked an answered. We don't know what they discussed.
And even if he did ask and Trump said no, that he would never in a million years do it, it wouldn't matter. He'd change his mind and do it anyway.
When he gets in office Obama can't stop him.
posted by Jalliah at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Once again, I ask, why has nobody inquired with Pres. Obama if he discussed Secretary Clinton with Mr. Trump today.
Who is laughing it off? It's been asked an answered. We don't know what they discussed.
And even if he did ask and Trump said no, that he would never in a million years do it, it wouldn't matter. He'd change his mind and do it anyway.
When he gets in office Obama can't stop him.
posted by Jalliah at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyway, here's all the stuff I was going to say before I found out what I noted in my last comment.
So we're just going to give up completely on even the possibility of helping future generations?
Unfortunately, I’m starting to be concerned that at least for my family, there may not be a future generation to help. I’m committed to helping future generations somehow, but I always figured I would be teaching those who came after me how to fight the Robotrons, not necessarily figuring out how to live on a Venus planet brought about by rapid, uncontrolled climate change. I've been thinking kind of seriously about becoming a Girl Scout leader. I miss Girl Scout camp. I just worry about committing to something I can't follow through on due to my family's various health situations.
I was recently invited to play at an event related to A Day Without Art, a reaction to the AIDS crisis from the Boston art scene. I was planning on performing a set of 80s punk songs. I've also (coincidentally) been reading a lot about the AIDS crisis in NYC in the early 80s. I keep seeing parallels between those stories and today and I'm scared to death.
Yeah, I was thinking earlier how going outside to my local record store felt great and I really should go to some more rock shows coming up. And that made me reflect on the inception of queer punk in the '80s and how that came about when people were dealing with Reagan being in the White House and the overall punk scene being retrograde itself. Then I just felt sad we’ve come back around to an even worse point than that.
You remember Sarah Palin -- she was the one who used private email.
I'm still upset with all the people who told me my question Rudy Giuliani didn't answer after the vice-presidential debate in 2008 was dumb and amateur ("How will Sarah Palin keep our country safe if she can’t keep her email safe?").
Re-watch the first season West Wing episode A Proportional Response and imagine Trump sitting in Bartlett's chair.
The West Wing episodes I keep thinking about are "Twenty-Five" and its follow-ups, with President Walken, which airs the same fear, so yeah.
posted by limeonaire at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016
So we're just going to give up completely on even the possibility of helping future generations?
Unfortunately, I’m starting to be concerned that at least for my family, there may not be a future generation to help. I’m committed to helping future generations somehow, but I always figured I would be teaching those who came after me how to fight the Robotrons, not necessarily figuring out how to live on a Venus planet brought about by rapid, uncontrolled climate change. I've been thinking kind of seriously about becoming a Girl Scout leader. I miss Girl Scout camp. I just worry about committing to something I can't follow through on due to my family's various health situations.
I was recently invited to play at an event related to A Day Without Art, a reaction to the AIDS crisis from the Boston art scene. I was planning on performing a set of 80s punk songs. I've also (coincidentally) been reading a lot about the AIDS crisis in NYC in the early 80s. I keep seeing parallels between those stories and today and I'm scared to death.
Yeah, I was thinking earlier how going outside to my local record store felt great and I really should go to some more rock shows coming up. And that made me reflect on the inception of queer punk in the '80s and how that came about when people were dealing with Reagan being in the White House and the overall punk scene being retrograde itself. Then I just felt sad we’ve come back around to an even worse point than that.
You remember Sarah Palin -- she was the one who used private email.
I'm still upset with all the people who told me my question Rudy Giuliani didn't answer after the vice-presidential debate in 2008 was dumb and amateur ("How will Sarah Palin keep our country safe if she can’t keep her email safe?").
Re-watch the first season West Wing episode A Proportional Response and imagine Trump sitting in Bartlett's chair.
The West Wing episodes I keep thinking about are "Twenty-Five" and its follow-ups, with President Walken, which airs the same fear, so yeah.
posted by limeonaire at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016
yeah, but here we are, kind of laughing that shit off, in this very thread.
Who here exactly do you think is laughing about any of this shitshow? I'm sorry that everyone isn't like leaping to focus on the point you think we all should be focusing on in a specific way you want us to do it, but I'm 98% sure that nobody is finding any of this funny, except in an occasional embittered gallows-humor-so-you-don't-scream way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Who here exactly do you think is laughing about any of this shitshow? I'm sorry that everyone isn't like leaping to focus on the point you think we all should be focusing on in a specific way you want us to do it, but I'm 98% sure that nobody is finding any of this funny, except in an occasional embittered gallows-humor-so-you-don't-scream way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Once again, I ask, why has nobody inquired with Pres. Obama if he discussed Secretary Clinton with Mr. Trump today.
Hilary Clinton should leave the country and set up shop in Germany.
And taunt the living shit out of Trump online, to make sure that he DOES prosecute her.
THAT is why Obama should discuss Secretary Clinton with Secretary Clinton, not with Trump.
posted by ocschwar at 9:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hilary Clinton should leave the country and set up shop in Germany.
And taunt the living shit out of Trump online, to make sure that he DOES prosecute her.
THAT is why Obama should discuss Secretary Clinton with Secretary Clinton, not with Trump.
posted by ocschwar at 9:42 PM on November 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean seriously: she's out of office, retired, and since the world at large is intent on making reality a competitor to the best cstross and Charlie Brooker can think up, why not go whole hog?
Come on, Secretary Clinton, it's only 4 years. Chelsea and Bill can visit.
posted by ocschwar at 9:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Come on, Secretary Clinton, it's only 4 years. Chelsea and Bill can visit.
posted by ocschwar at 9:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Who here exactly do you think is laughing about any of this shitshow? I'm sorry that everyone isn't like leaping to focus on the point you think we all should be focusing on in a specific way you want us to do it, but I'm 98% sure that nobody is finding any of this funny, except in an occasional embittered gallows-humor-so-you-don't-scream way.
K. Sorry. Didn't mean to make it about me or my concerns. Will shut up now.
posted by Chrischris at 9:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
K. Sorry. Didn't mean to make it about me or my concerns. Will shut up now.
posted by Chrischris at 9:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Chris Matthews and everyone else who thinks Trump will reveal himself to be someone other than who he has been saying he is for the last decade are in denial.
posted by gatorae at 9:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 9:45 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't you reckon one of his people told him it would be like ten, fifteen minutes, tops, boss. Doesn't he seem the type who is always so busy, his time is so valuable etc etc that everything must be the least inconvenience to him possible.
Sure that's possible. I'm currently inclined to see things through the darkest and most conspiratorial lenses I have lying around these last few days.
posted by Golem XIV at 9:50 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure that's possible. I'm currently inclined to see things through the darkest and most conspiratorial lenses I have lying around these last few days.
posted by Golem XIV at 9:50 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Clinton leaves the country I think it'd be seen as an admission of guilt and if that doesn't stir up a crazy extradition drama at the very least it seems like it'd make her return even more difficult over the long term. It'd be a hell of a way to end up as a long term exile when keeping her head down might be enough. There will be a newer scandal soon enough.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:51 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:51 PM on November 10, 2016
If Clinton leaves the country I think it'd be seen as an admission of guilt
Only by the blithering idiots that Trump panders to.
And there would be no extradition. No way Germany or Norway or any sane European country would hand her over. They'd sooner withdraw from Interpol.
And forget about scandals bringing Trump down. The GOP will not impeach him. He will not resign.
What will work is wearing the motherfucker out. Grinding him down. Hillary tweeting from Berlin about the latest stupidity from Trump? Every day? That's who you grind the fucker down.
posted by ocschwar at 9:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is the darkest thread on the front page right now, so some good news- Chinese scientists achieve [minor] breakthrough with nuclear fusion reactor
posted by Apocryphon at 9:01 PM on November 10
Finally fusion power is just 10 yrs away!
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:31 PM on November 10
Actually, if fusion power is possible, 20 years might not be unreasonable. From what I have heard China is investing in literally every bit of energy - renewables, nuclear, coal, and more of a real fusion energy program than the US ever has. A real shot at fusion in a couple of decades was projected to require massive amounts of funding, and the US has never seriously funded fusion since the Carter administration.
But with all things experimental, it's a gamble, and who knows the odds.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:01 PM on November 10
Finally fusion power is just 10 yrs away!
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:31 PM on November 10
Actually, if fusion power is possible, 20 years might not be unreasonable. From what I have heard China is investing in literally every bit of energy - renewables, nuclear, coal, and more of a real fusion energy program than the US ever has. A real shot at fusion in a couple of decades was projected to require massive amounts of funding, and the US has never seriously funded fusion since the Carter administration.
But with all things experimental, it's a gamble, and who knows the odds.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:55 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Comey gave us Trump. And the emails-crazy media made it happen.
Mother Jones agrees with this analysis, also citing the Bloomberg article: Fuck You, James Comey
posted by zachlipton at 9:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Mother Jones agrees with this analysis, also citing the Bloomberg article: Fuck You, James Comey
posted by zachlipton at 9:58 PM on November 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
K. Sorry. Didn't mean to make it about me or my concerns. Will shut up now.
And I'm sorry for sounding like (or probably being) a cranky ass. I re-read some of the things you were expressing concern about, and they're all things other people in this thread are also worried about. Because Trump is such a cypher in terms of figuring out what, if anything, he genuinely means or believes about anything, it's very hard to tell what is merely horrifying attention-seeking bluster vs. actual policies/plans, especially when one can turn into the other from moment to moment.
It's not that people are laughing off or dismissing X or Y as something Trump won't actually do or deceiving themselves into thinking he wouldn't really go there. Of course he would. It's that they're desperately hoping he won't do X or Y or that someone will stop him or that it will turn out not to be feasible.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
And I'm sorry for sounding like (or probably being) a cranky ass. I re-read some of the things you were expressing concern about, and they're all things other people in this thread are also worried about. Because Trump is such a cypher in terms of figuring out what, if anything, he genuinely means or believes about anything, it's very hard to tell what is merely horrifying attention-seeking bluster vs. actual policies/plans, especially when one can turn into the other from moment to moment.
It's not that people are laughing off or dismissing X or Y as something Trump won't actually do or deceiving themselves into thinking he wouldn't really go there. Of course he would. It's that they're desperately hoping he won't do X or Y or that someone will stop him or that it will turn out not to be feasible.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:02 PM on November 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
this just showed up on my Facebook ...
Dear President Elect Donald Trump;
Congratulations!
You just got the world's hardest job and took a pay cut to do it! We're praying for your/our success!
No more rallies! No more cheering crowds! 14 hour days in meetings and reading policy papers well into the night. Hounded, hounded, hounded by naysayers for the next four years!
[...]
But let's face it! You're a winner. You won the ultimate reality show game! The Presidential election. You have made history, champ.
And as a reward, for the next four years you are a public servant. A Servant to the public! You work for me, buddy. And not just for me but for all the hotel maids, bus boys, doormen, cab drivers, sanitation workers, secretaries, bus drivers, fast food servers, and construction workers in the US.
This is the part where you have to let out a chuckle. I mean it's funny, isn't it? You're this big shot billionaire and you traded a cushy retirement to become a servant.
Well, you better get it right, Bud.
posted by philip-random at 10:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
Dear President Elect Donald Trump;
Congratulations!
You just got the world's hardest job and took a pay cut to do it! We're praying for your/our success!
No more rallies! No more cheering crowds! 14 hour days in meetings and reading policy papers well into the night. Hounded, hounded, hounded by naysayers for the next four years!
[...]
But let's face it! You're a winner. You won the ultimate reality show game! The Presidential election. You have made history, champ.
And as a reward, for the next four years you are a public servant. A Servant to the public! You work for me, buddy. And not just for me but for all the hotel maids, bus boys, doormen, cab drivers, sanitation workers, secretaries, bus drivers, fast food servers, and construction workers in the US.
This is the part where you have to let out a chuckle. I mean it's funny, isn't it? You're this big shot billionaire and you traded a cushy retirement to become a servant.
Well, you better get it right, Bud.
posted by philip-random at 10:23 PM on November 10, 2016 [33 favorites]
A big alt-right talking point is that according to Wikileaks, George Soros is paying people to protest (and especially to violently protest) at Trump events
Wait, I could be getting PAID to march around Oakland after dark and shout three word chants? Where's my check? I am totally up for being a paid protester.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wait, I could be getting PAID to march around Oakland after dark and shout three word chants? Where's my check? I am totally up for being a paid protester.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I just took a dive through the NYT's reporting on Trump in the first half of 2015 -- just to remember a time when a President-elect Trump was not merely unlikely but outright laughable -- and I am struck by how consistent Trump has been in his messaging. From his appearance at the Freedom Summit in Iowa in Jan. 2015:
No Comment Necessary: Donald Trump, Border-Fence Builderposted by crazy with stars at 10:40 PM on November 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
By THE EDITORS
At the Freedom Summit in Iowa on Saturday, Donald Trump said that if he runs for president, and is elected president, he will build a border fence to keep out criminals, crooks and Islamic terrorists.
Via Right Wing Watch
Who can build better than Trump? I build. It’s what I do. I build. I build nice fences but I build great buildings. Fences are easy, believe me. I saw the other day on television, people are just walking across the border, they’re walking, the military is standing there, holding guns and people are just walking right in front, coming into our country. It is so terrible, it is so unfair, it is so incompetent and we don’t have the best coming in, we have people that are criminals, we have people that are crooks, you can certainly have terrorists, you can certainly have Islamic terrorists, you can have anything coming across the border. We don’t do anything about it. So I would say that if I run and if I win, I would certainly start by building a very, very powerful border.
Why we make a list of all the groups you're willing to sacrifice for your ideals. Because that's what you're suggesting, right?
Also, prisoners and the homeless.
posted by bendy at 10:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, prisoners and the homeless.
posted by bendy at 10:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Canada in the Age of Donald Trump We are now the last country on earth to believe in multiculturalism
I don't agree with everything in this article and I'm not sure if we really are the last country on earth to believe in multiculturalism. This did give a me a few 'a ha' moments as I've been not only grappling with what this Trump win means for the US but also for my own country. These two paragraph in particular latched onto something that I've been feeling but didn't realize I was.
We are increasingly alone. This loneliness is going to define us in the coming months and years, possibly forever. We are the last country on earth to believe in multiculturalism. We are one of the last countries on earth to believe in the freedom of trade. The irony of our situation is obvious: We are most open to the world at the exact moment the world has closed.
As horrific as this turn of events in the world at large is—and we are not that far from being able to imagine ethnic cleansing as a political program in advanced economies—Canada's loneliness puts us in a position unique in our history. For the first time, we find ourselves not as a reflection of another power. Our politics is not a derivation of Westminster or Washington anymore. Our politics is specific to us, not a derivation from a distant metropolis.
And now I'm crying again because seriously and fuck me, ' we are increasingly alone.' That line is haunting me.
posted by Jalliah at 10:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
I don't agree with everything in this article and I'm not sure if we really are the last country on earth to believe in multiculturalism. This did give a me a few 'a ha' moments as I've been not only grappling with what this Trump win means for the US but also for my own country. These two paragraph in particular latched onto something that I've been feeling but didn't realize I was.
We are increasingly alone. This loneliness is going to define us in the coming months and years, possibly forever. We are the last country on earth to believe in multiculturalism. We are one of the last countries on earth to believe in the freedom of trade. The irony of our situation is obvious: We are most open to the world at the exact moment the world has closed.
As horrific as this turn of events in the world at large is—and we are not that far from being able to imagine ethnic cleansing as a political program in advanced economies—Canada's loneliness puts us in a position unique in our history. For the first time, we find ourselves not as a reflection of another power. Our politics is not a derivation of Westminster or Washington anymore. Our politics is specific to us, not a derivation from a distant metropolis.
And now I'm crying again because seriously and fuck me, ' we are increasingly alone.' That line is haunting me.
posted by Jalliah at 10:54 PM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
America survived eight years of W.
It very nearly didn't. Without the persistence of Obama trying to overcome the drag on recovery efforts the GOP saddled him with, we could still be locked in a recession. And even with the recovery, much of Trump's support comes from those still not reaping the benefits of the recovery dampened by partisan politics.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It very nearly didn't. Without the persistence of Obama trying to overcome the drag on recovery efforts the GOP saddled him with, we could still be locked in a recession. And even with the recovery, much of Trump's support comes from those still not reaping the benefits of the recovery dampened by partisan politics.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:06 PM on November 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Never, ever, ever forget that Trump lost the popular vote. Every time you say his name, I want you to say out loud, "President Trump, who lost the popular vote, ..." America rejected this man and rejected his values. Not by a lot, not by enough, but we rejected him. Never forget your victories, and never let your victories be forgotten.
posted by fomhar at 11:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by fomhar at 11:19 PM on November 10, 2016 [45 favorites]
And now I'm crying again because seriously and fuck me, ' we are increasingly alone.' That line is haunting me.
Iceland is going to be governed by the Pirate Party soon, right? At least you'll have a different neighbor to look up to.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Iceland is going to be governed by the Pirate Party soon, right? At least you'll have a different neighbor to look up to.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:26 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Iceland is going to be governed by the Pirate Party soon, right? At least you'll have a different neighbor to look up to.
OMG! Thank you I needed that and you caught my sense of humor perfectly. Laughing is now breaking up the tears.
Arrgh
posted by Jalliah at 11:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
OMG! Thank you I needed that and you caught my sense of humor perfectly. Laughing is now breaking up the tears.
Arrgh
posted by Jalliah at 11:31 PM on November 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tonight my partner and I were driving back home through Boulder and got on the highway briefly...only to have it shut down by protestors! We rolled down our windows, high-fived and peace-signed, and thanked people for being out there. It was a very happy, peaceful but angry crowd—productive angry, if that makes sense. It was all great until a Bernie sign-holding protestor, probably about 23, leaned into my open passenger window and began to mansplain the election to me without provocation. (Yes, he was a dude. SHOCKING.) He kept pointing at the sign and telling me that this is the DNC's fault and that the DNC is worse than Trump.
I finally said very kindly but firmly "Thanks for your perspective and for protesting, we don't agree and I need you to get out of my window" at which point his face became super ugly for a split second and his friends kind of dragged him away. Fun times. Fun times. Of course I didn't have the presence of mind to ask a question like "What about the people who voted for Trump?" or "Why the fuck do you feel the need to come essentially INTO MY CAR and tell me this so condescendingly" but I was overwhelmed, what can I say. Still shaking my head over here...
posted by mynameisluka at 11:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
I finally said very kindly but firmly "Thanks for your perspective and for protesting, we don't agree and I need you to get out of my window" at which point his face became super ugly for a split second and his friends kind of dragged him away. Fun times. Fun times. Of course I didn't have the presence of mind to ask a question like "What about the people who voted for Trump?" or "Why the fuck do you feel the need to come essentially INTO MY CAR and tell me this so condescendingly" but I was overwhelmed, what can I say. Still shaking my head over here...
posted by mynameisluka at 11:36 PM on November 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
Two Americas in One Photograph
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:44 PM on November 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Iceland is going to be governed by the Pirate Party soon, right?
Unfortunately not—
They did go from 3 up to 10 seats in the Althing, though.The Independence Party emerged as the dominant party from our parliamentary elections. President Guðni Th. Jóhannesson granted them the mandate to form the next coalition government. While that new coalition has not yet been decided, the Pirate Party has been all but sidelined in the coalition talks. It looks as though, despite numerous breathless headlines in the international press to the contrary, the Pirates might not even be in the ruling coalition, let alone leading it.
posted by XMLicious at 12:12 AM on November 11, 2016
Regarding Hillary not turning out enough people: That was absolutely not the case in Florida. Florida went for Trump because of the exurban counties on the west coast turning out for Trump to a degree literally never seen before. Sadly, it was enough to overwhelm her better-than-Obama performance in the entirety of the rest of the state with enough votes to matter.
I can't say about anywhere else, but here it was a goddamned wave for both of them. It just so happened that Trump's was ever so slightly bigger. I guarantee the voter ID law didn't help anything. The guy checking people in at my precinct tried to turn me away completely. Never mind that the law is very clear that you can in fact vote a provisional ballot without ID. It gets counted if the signature matches your registration. Quite simple, really. My experience may have helped someone at my local precinct, but how many times did that same scenario play out across the rest of the state with someone who wasn't willing to escalate the issue? And how many did, but were still prevented from voting?
I can almost guarantee that this election would have gone the other way were it not for vote suppression. That is one reason why I am so upset by Trump's win. Not only do we get Trump, but we are guaranteed a Supreme Court that will happily rubber stamp whatever new impediments to voting the Republicans think up so long as they aren't literally titled "poll tax" or "literacy test."
Whatever else happens, that will be the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving. Even if by some miracle Congress resurrects the VRA, if Trump gets a second Justice appointed it will be struck down for good, never mind what the Constitution says about Congress' power to regulate the time and manner of federal elections.
Sometimes I think that we'd be better off if the Supreme Court didn't restrain itself quite as much as it does regarding "political questions" like the Senate refusing to give Presidential nominations to Constitutional offices an up or down vote. Had they voted on Garland and said no, fair enough, but they didn't even do that much. I know he won't, and it would set terrible precedent in so many ways, but I almost feel like Obama ought to just seat him, claiming the Senate's outright refusal to act was it effectively giving its consent. They have, after all, had the better part of a year to say no.
posted by wierdo at 12:37 AM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
I can't say about anywhere else, but here it was a goddamned wave for both of them. It just so happened that Trump's was ever so slightly bigger. I guarantee the voter ID law didn't help anything. The guy checking people in at my precinct tried to turn me away completely. Never mind that the law is very clear that you can in fact vote a provisional ballot without ID. It gets counted if the signature matches your registration. Quite simple, really. My experience may have helped someone at my local precinct, but how many times did that same scenario play out across the rest of the state with someone who wasn't willing to escalate the issue? And how many did, but were still prevented from voting?
I can almost guarantee that this election would have gone the other way were it not for vote suppression. That is one reason why I am so upset by Trump's win. Not only do we get Trump, but we are guaranteed a Supreme Court that will happily rubber stamp whatever new impediments to voting the Republicans think up so long as they aren't literally titled "poll tax" or "literacy test."
Whatever else happens, that will be the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving. Even if by some miracle Congress resurrects the VRA, if Trump gets a second Justice appointed it will be struck down for good, never mind what the Constitution says about Congress' power to regulate the time and manner of federal elections.
Sometimes I think that we'd be better off if the Supreme Court didn't restrain itself quite as much as it does regarding "political questions" like the Senate refusing to give Presidential nominations to Constitutional offices an up or down vote. Had they voted on Garland and said no, fair enough, but they didn't even do that much. I know he won't, and it would set terrible precedent in so many ways, but I almost feel like Obama ought to just seat him, claiming the Senate's outright refusal to act was it effectively giving its consent. They have, after all, had the better part of a year to say no.
posted by wierdo at 12:37 AM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
Two Americas in One Photograph
How Obama out-manspreaded Trump: Body language expert reveals the truth behind that very awkward-looking first meeting between the pair at the White House
Trump 'manhandles' Pence at victory speech.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
How Obama out-manspreaded Trump: Body language expert reveals the truth behind that very awkward-looking first meeting between the pair at the White House
Trump 'manhandles' Pence at victory speech.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
A video entitled "Mike Pence: We need Jesus more than ever today" popped up on a YouTube sidebar for me and I was all holy moly I agree with Mike Pence
posted by Lyme Drop at 1:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 1:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
M.A.M.Ó.N. by Ale Damiani.
I have no idea what to make of this, but it's quite a something.
posted by Grangousier at 1:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have no idea what to make of this, but it's quite a something.
posted by Grangousier at 1:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Oh, and one more thought, just because I find it a bit funny: Hillary does have baggage. It's called a purse. A lot of women carry one.
The rest of that shit you see is half the country assuming she's the goddamned bellhop and piling their shit on her expecting her to carry it up to their room for them even though that isn't actually her job. Being the type of person she is, she decided to carry it anyway since the actual bellhops are fucking off out back smoking weed and arguing about whether or not Obama is actually a Muslim.
tl;dr: She ain't the one with baggage. You are. She's carrying it for you because that's what a fucking leader does.
Too bad the electoral college means that the person who got the most votes didn't win. Again.
posted by wierdo at 1:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [30 favorites]
The rest of that shit you see is half the country assuming she's the goddamned bellhop and piling their shit on her expecting her to carry it up to their room for them even though that isn't actually her job. Being the type of person she is, she decided to carry it anyway since the actual bellhops are fucking off out back smoking weed and arguing about whether or not Obama is actually a Muslim.
tl;dr: She ain't the one with baggage. You are. She's carrying it for you because that's what a fucking leader does.
Too bad the electoral college means that the person who got the most votes didn't win. Again.
posted by wierdo at 1:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [30 favorites]
in the How Obama out 'Man-spread' Trump article there's the telling detail in which any faint glimmer of optimism I have, resides -
'The thing that is very significant is Trump's hand position,' Wood told DailyMail.com, describing it as the 'downward prayer position', which is not typical for the President-elect.
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
'Trump holds his own hands as he begins speaking which is an indication he needs to comfort himself,' she added.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
'The thing that is very significant is Trump's hand position,' Wood told DailyMail.com, describing it as the 'downward prayer position', which is not typical for the President-elect.
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
'Trump holds his own hands as he begins speaking which is an indication he needs to comfort himself,' she added.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
What he's learned is that overnight all his political enemies now want to be his best friends, and that's a totally new position for him. Obama: "We now are going to want to do everything we can to help you succeed."
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:02 AM on November 11, 2016
What he's learned is that overnight all his political enemies now want to be his best friends, and that's a totally new position for him. Obama: "We now are going to want to do everything we can to help you succeed."
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:02 AM on November 11, 2016
She ain't the one with baggage. You are.
we'll try the phone call analogy, then - 2016 called - the democrats answered, "1996"
i'd have settled for it, but others wouldn't
posted by pyramid termite at 3:23 AM on November 11, 2016
we'll try the phone call analogy, then - 2016 called - the democrats answered, "1996"
i'd have settled for it, but others wouldn't
posted by pyramid termite at 3:23 AM on November 11, 2016
I think that he learned overnight that around half the country is cool with the fact that he is a xenophobic sexual predator, therefore reinforcing his version of reality.
If he really is needing to comfort himself (a plague upon his head), I am going to just tell myself that Obama just made some sick burn that hit like the one part of Trump's heart that is not protected by reptilian scales.
posted by angrycat at 3:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If he really is needing to comfort himself (a plague upon his head), I am going to just tell myself that Obama just made some sick burn that hit like the one part of Trump's heart that is not protected by reptilian scales.
posted by angrycat at 3:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
@ryanstruyk:
Votes for the Democratic nominee from people under 25 years old:
Obama '08 = 9.0 million
Obama '12 = 8.2 million
Clinton '16 = 7.2 million
posted by chris24 at 3:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Votes for the Democratic nominee from people under 25 years old:
Obama '08 = 9.0 million
Obama '12 = 8.2 million
Clinton '16 = 7.2 million
posted by chris24 at 3:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
@Nate_Cohn:
"Trump won more voters than Romney in MI, PA, FL, NC, WI, IA, OH, NH. And that's despite Johnson"
Despite how manifestly awful he was, white people went big for him. Not sure how you spin that other than racism with heathy helping of sexism.
posted by chris24 at 3:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Trump won more voters than Romney in MI, PA, FL, NC, WI, IA, OH, NH. And that's despite Johnson"
Despite how manifestly awful he was, white people went big for him. Not sure how you spin that other than racism with heathy helping of sexism.
posted by chris24 at 3:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
WTH?
"Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 49 minutes ago
Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!"
"Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 10h10 hours ago
Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
posted by bootlegpop at 4:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 49 minutes ago
Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!"
"Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 10h10 hours ago
Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
posted by bootlegpop at 4:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Soothing: I just heard former EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard on the radio - skyping in from Marrakesh. She said that the Paris agreement anticipates a Trump win, and that there is a lock-in for four years from when a government decides to exit the agreement till they can actually do that. Learning from history: the Clinton administration had signed the Kyoto agreement, but Bush annulled it.
(This is just me quoting directly from the radio, no links)
She also said that because of Paris, big industries around the world are already way into preparing green technologies and will not be interested in going back. Not least in China - her impression was that if the US won't be leading the transition from black to green energy, China will - together with Brazil, India and Europe.
Here it is important to note that even if Europe is now flooded by right-wing populists and the EU is heaving at the seams, climate denial is not very strong here. Except from Norway, oil is not a big thing in Europe, and coal has been almost entirely phased out long ago in all of western Europe (not so much the East, but they are on the task). Many conservatives and populists are greener than the Social Democrats, because of love of the country.
posted by mumimor at 4:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
(This is just me quoting directly from the radio, no links)
She also said that because of Paris, big industries around the world are already way into preparing green technologies and will not be interested in going back. Not least in China - her impression was that if the US won't be leading the transition from black to green energy, China will - together with Brazil, India and Europe.
Here it is important to note that even if Europe is now flooded by right-wing populists and the EU is heaving at the seams, climate denial is not very strong here. Except from Norway, oil is not a big thing in Europe, and coal has been almost entirely phased out long ago in all of western Europe (not so much the East, but they are on the task). Many conservatives and populists are greener than the Social Democrats, because of love of the country.
posted by mumimor at 4:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
What the hell is someone has explained to Trump that he's trying to be conciliatory and has to fight his natural impulse to be a whiny bully.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
'The thing that is very significant is Trump's hand position,' Wood told DailyMail.com, describing it as the 'downward prayer position', which is not typical for the President-elect.
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
'Trump holds his own hands as he begins speaking which is an indication he needs to comfort himself,' she added.
This isn't good either. A scared President-Elect Trump (I just typed that for the first time and want to vomit) is a ticket to an administration in which DJT makes hay in renewed culture wars, while foreign and economic policy is steered directly into the sun by Pence, Gingrich and whichever of the Dubya Death Star bridge crew feels like answering the phone, to an embarrassing amount of passive, relieved acceptance from centrists on both sides.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
'Trump holds his own hands as he begins speaking which is an indication he needs to comfort himself,' she added.
This isn't good either. A scared President-Elect Trump (I just typed that for the first time and want to vomit) is a ticket to an administration in which DJT makes hay in renewed culture wars, while foreign and economic policy is steered directly into the sun by Pence, Gingrich and whichever of the Dubya Death Star bridge crew feels like answering the phone, to an embarrassing amount of passive, relieved acceptance from centrists on both sides.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
She ain't the one with baggage. You are.
we'll try the phone call analogy, then - 2016 called - the democrats answered, "1996"
And the GOP answered, "1933." What's your point?
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
we'll try the phone call analogy, then - 2016 called - the democrats answered, "1996"
And the GOP answered, "1933." What's your point?
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Hi. I haven't read this whole thread because my capacity for taking this stuff in is dwindling by the moment, but I have a question that's been keeping me up all night, and I was hoping some of you intelligent people could answer.
The cognitive dissonance that is tearing my brain apart is this. Over and over and over again, we are getting references to fascism. At the same time, we are seeing all of our leaders talk about (and demonstrate) a peaceful transition of power, and our commentators are talking about what to do in 2018, at the next election.
Now, I know Trump will be a Republican President, which means, in my mind, he'll be a bad President. He will hurt an untold number people. He will cause them harm. I've lived through bad Republican Presidents, and he will be worse. That's a given. But I know, fundamentally, how to act during the regime of a Republican President - how to donate, volunteer, write, resist. But it seems to me that the primary difference between a bad president, of the kind we've had before, and something that could potentially be unprecedented, is this: once he has power, will he give it up?
That, to me, is what the fascism comparisons suggest. If there is any risk that he won't transition out peacefully, then his policies frankly don't really matter, because he's not a Republican President anymore, he's something else. And while that seems extreme, obviously, the thing that makes it seem like a scary, if still unlikely, possibility to me is all of the establishment Republicans who disavowed Trump in the run-up to the election, despite the fact that his win would mean they'd have a chance to enact all the bad Republican policies they wanted. They were still afraid.
If there is even a 1% chance that this is what we are looking at, it seems to me that the progressive narrative has to change dramatically, right now. A bad Republican President, one that will enact harmful policies I fundamentally disagree with for the next four years, is a best-case scenario, and one we should be willing to ally with the Republican establishment and the #nevertrump people to make happen. A Mike Pence Presidency is still a Presidency. Is that true of Trump?
I guess that question boils down to this: are these comparisons to fascism blowhard rhetoric, intended to drive us further to the left, and make us dig in our heels and rile us up into more passionate activism within the system (donating, volunteering, planning for 2018)? Or are they honest? Because if they are honest, and he is a threat not just to our side, but the system itself, then it seems to me it's about time to put aside all the activism, swallow all our principles, and start trying, in an absolutely fucking clear-eyed and unsentimental way, to fix this NOW, with as much coordination with the #NeverTrump Republicans as possible.
Is there anyone who is talking about this? Do you have thoughts?
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
The cognitive dissonance that is tearing my brain apart is this. Over and over and over again, we are getting references to fascism. At the same time, we are seeing all of our leaders talk about (and demonstrate) a peaceful transition of power, and our commentators are talking about what to do in 2018, at the next election.
Now, I know Trump will be a Republican President, which means, in my mind, he'll be a bad President. He will hurt an untold number people. He will cause them harm. I've lived through bad Republican Presidents, and he will be worse. That's a given. But I know, fundamentally, how to act during the regime of a Republican President - how to donate, volunteer, write, resist. But it seems to me that the primary difference between a bad president, of the kind we've had before, and something that could potentially be unprecedented, is this: once he has power, will he give it up?
That, to me, is what the fascism comparisons suggest. If there is any risk that he won't transition out peacefully, then his policies frankly don't really matter, because he's not a Republican President anymore, he's something else. And while that seems extreme, obviously, the thing that makes it seem like a scary, if still unlikely, possibility to me is all of the establishment Republicans who disavowed Trump in the run-up to the election, despite the fact that his win would mean they'd have a chance to enact all the bad Republican policies they wanted. They were still afraid.
If there is even a 1% chance that this is what we are looking at, it seems to me that the progressive narrative has to change dramatically, right now. A bad Republican President, one that will enact harmful policies I fundamentally disagree with for the next four years, is a best-case scenario, and one we should be willing to ally with the Republican establishment and the #nevertrump people to make happen. A Mike Pence Presidency is still a Presidency. Is that true of Trump?
I guess that question boils down to this: are these comparisons to fascism blowhard rhetoric, intended to drive us further to the left, and make us dig in our heels and rile us up into more passionate activism within the system (donating, volunteering, planning for 2018)? Or are they honest? Because if they are honest, and he is a threat not just to our side, but the system itself, then it seems to me it's about time to put aside all the activism, swallow all our principles, and start trying, in an absolutely fucking clear-eyed and unsentimental way, to fix this NOW, with as much coordination with the #NeverTrump Republicans as possible.
Is there anyone who is talking about this? Do you have thoughts?
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
"What the hell is someone has explained to Trump that he's trying to be conciliatory and has to fight his natural impulse to be a whiny bully.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:14 AM on November 11 [1 favorite +] [!]"
but it's so twisted and convoluted. For one, does no one who he talks to realize that the second tweet will show up right on top of the initial somewhat contradictory one? So, he thus appears to both think that the protestors are hired thugs AND that they are passionate patriots who care about their country? Again, wth? And, on top of that, it's not like he didn't get in his own dig by calling the protests "small". So, basically his conciliation is still passive aggressive. Why even bother pouring murky water in when he has already pissed in the pool and we can all still see it?
posted by bootlegpop at 4:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:14 AM on November 11 [1 favorite +] [!]"
but it's so twisted and convoluted. For one, does no one who he talks to realize that the second tweet will show up right on top of the initial somewhat contradictory one? So, he thus appears to both think that the protestors are hired thugs AND that they are passionate patriots who care about their country? Again, wth? And, on top of that, it's not like he didn't get in his own dig by calling the protests "small". So, basically his conciliation is still passive aggressive. Why even bother pouring murky water in when he has already pissed in the pool and we can all still see it?
posted by bootlegpop at 4:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
WTF is a professional protester? Like, sign me the fuck up if I can go protest this shit and get paid for it.
It's the left-wing equivalent of the Macedonian teenagers who got rich from pro-Trump clickbait sites.
posted by acb at 4:40 AM on November 11, 2016
It's the left-wing equivalent of the Macedonian teenagers who got rich from pro-Trump clickbait sites.
posted by acb at 4:40 AM on November 11, 2016
A bad Republican President, one that will enact harmful policies I fundamentally disagree with for the next four years, is a best-case scenario, and one we should be willing to ally with the Republican establishment and the #nevertrump people to make happen.
Forget about this, it's not happening. The Republican establishment is going to fold like a beach chair. They already are.
And frankly, abandoning the result of the election entirely would be courting the end of the republic right now, instead of later.
There's one valid scenario that keeps Trump out of office, or gets him impeached: a leak/oppo drop that shows illegal campaign activity -- either in handling public funds, or actual direct collaboration (with or without kompromat) with hacking and tampering by Russia.
Once I pick myself up off the floor, looking into FOIA or other legal standing vs. successful campaign orgs is on my list or responses to investigate.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Forget about this, it's not happening. The Republican establishment is going to fold like a beach chair. They already are.
And frankly, abandoning the result of the election entirely would be courting the end of the republic right now, instead of later.
There's one valid scenario that keeps Trump out of office, or gets him impeached: a leak/oppo drop that shows illegal campaign activity -- either in handling public funds, or actual direct collaboration (with or without kompromat) with hacking and tampering by Russia.
Once I pick myself up off the floor, looking into FOIA or other legal standing vs. successful campaign orgs is on my list or responses to investigate.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
re: Trump's twitter
1. some flunky is getting a hiding for letting Trump at the phone again.
2. said flunky's replacement is getting a hiding for not deleting the previous tweet.
it's hard out there for a flunky.
posted by From Bklyn at 4:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
1. some flunky is getting a hiding for letting Trump at the phone again.
2. said flunky's replacement is getting a hiding for not deleting the previous tweet.
it's hard out there for a flunky.
posted by From Bklyn at 4:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Are we really doing tabloid body language experts here? I think we can find plenty of other evidence that Trump is an incompetent asshole.
posted by that's how you get ants at 4:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by that's how you get ants at 4:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's one valid scenario that keeps Trump out of office, or gets him impeached: a leak/oppo drop that shows illegal campaign activity -- either in handling public funds, or actual direct collaboration (with or without kompromat) with hacking and tampering by Russia.
Something like this would make Trump sit awkwardly, with his hands in a sort of, prayer pose...
Well come on, give me something, it's been a fucking horrifying week.
posted by From Bklyn at 4:44 AM on November 11, 2016
Something like this would make Trump sit awkwardly, with his hands in a sort of, prayer pose...
Well come on, give me something, it's been a fucking horrifying week.
posted by From Bklyn at 4:44 AM on November 11, 2016
2. said flunky's replacement is getting a hiding for not deleting the previous tweet.
Now that he has won, in what way does him denouncing protest as illegitimate compromise him? It's well within the envelope of even acceptable Republican authoritarianism, going back to Nixon or Reagan.
posted by acb at 4:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now that he has won, in what way does him denouncing protest as illegitimate compromise him? It's well within the envelope of even acceptable Republican authoritarianism, going back to Nixon or Reagan.
posted by acb at 4:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
My 4-year-old who was "playing canvas" over the weekend is now "playing vote." He's too young to understand what has happened and it's breaking my heart watching him use the chess board as a voting machine.
Last night he asked when we could canvas again and I told him the election was over. He wanted to know when the next election was and I practically roared 2018!!!!! We're ready.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
Last night he asked when we could canvas again and I told him the election was over. He wanted to know when the next election was and I practically roared 2018!!!!! We're ready.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
I figured that the first tweet was just the prelude to the justification that he will use when sending the feds in after the protesters once he takes office.
posted by bootlegpop at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by bootlegpop at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2016
Now that he has won, in what way does him denouncing protest as illegitimate compromise him? It's well within the envelope of even acceptable Republican authoritarianism, going back to Nixon or Reagan.
Let's not lose sight of politics, as such, completely. Everyone does this. I'm happy to denounce pro-life sidewalk protests and open-carry by packs of tacticool white dudes as illegitimate all day, every day.
Of course, I'm right, and they're wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let's not lose sight of politics, as such, completely. Everyone does this. I'm happy to denounce pro-life sidewalk protests and open-carry by packs of tacticool white dudes as illegitimate all day, every day.
Of course, I'm right, and they're wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish I could hug all of you here. I've felt like crap ever since I heard the news and I'm not even in the US. I'm just so worried for all y'all it actually hurts.
This is so very fucked up and I'm so, so sorry.
(Sorry, nothing to see here, carry on. Just had to get this off my chest. I'm on a train and I don't want to cry in public.)
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is so very fucked up and I'm so, so sorry.
(Sorry, nothing to see here, carry on. Just had to get this off my chest. I'm on a train and I don't want to cry in public.)
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
...sending the feds in after the protesters once he takes office.
This may not happen, depending on the tenor of the administration and the strength of its alignment with Senatorial Republicans (as vs. the House).
They might prefer to let DJT play twitter tennis with a bunch of fractious protest movements on the left to distract the media and undermine organizing by the Dems while they do Reganesque stuff, rather than push outright Nixonian confrontation.
And when you think about it, which of those two monstrosities did more damage to the country? (Spoiler: Reagan.) Or, for that matter, the GOP? (Spoiler: Nixon.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
This may not happen, depending on the tenor of the administration and the strength of its alignment with Senatorial Republicans (as vs. the House).
They might prefer to let DJT play twitter tennis with a bunch of fractious protest movements on the left to distract the media and undermine organizing by the Dems while they do Reganesque stuff, rather than push outright Nixonian confrontation.
And when you think about it, which of those two monstrosities did more damage to the country? (Spoiler: Reagan.) Or, for that matter, the GOP? (Spoiler: Nixon.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
it's hard out there for a flunky.
The flunky that hired that flunky has been replaced by a llama. We apologize for any inconvenience.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The flunky that hired that flunky has been replaced by a llama. We apologize for any inconvenience.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now that he has won, in what way does him denouncing protest as illegitimate compromise him?
Exactly. Taking away his phone was a strategy move during the campaign. Don't expect it to happen again until 2020.
And when you think about it, which of those two monstrosities did more damage to the country? (Spoiler: Reagan.) Or, for that matter, the GOP? (Spoiler: Nixon.)
I'll buy that Reagan did more damage to the country, but did Nixon really damage the GOP that much? Carter was a one-term President, and the GOP under Reagan certainly had no trouble pushing through everything they wanted.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:16 AM on November 11, 2016
Exactly. Taking away his phone was a strategy move during the campaign. Don't expect it to happen again until 2020.
And when you think about it, which of those two monstrosities did more damage to the country? (Spoiler: Reagan.) Or, for that matter, the GOP? (Spoiler: Nixon.)
I'll buy that Reagan did more damage to the country, but did Nixon really damage the GOP that much? Carter was a one-term President, and the GOP under Reagan certainly had no trouble pushing through everything they wanted.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:16 AM on November 11, 2016
@Redistrict
"Just crossed the 127 million mark in presidential votes counted. It'll easily beat the 129 million in '12. [google spreadsheet]"
And this is with voter ID, loss of the VRA, voter suppression, etc. etc.
posted by chris24 at 5:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Just crossed the 127 million mark in presidential votes counted. It'll easily beat the 129 million in '12. [google spreadsheet]"
And this is with voter ID, loss of the VRA, voter suppression, etc. etc.
posted by chris24 at 5:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
wait back up for a second. did DJT really tweet about shit being unfair
i mean it's like he doesn't understand what the word "unfair" means in a very very basic sense
posted by angrycat at 5:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
i mean it's like he doesn't understand what the word "unfair" means in a very very basic sense
posted by angrycat at 5:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
i mean it's like he doesn't understand what the word "unfair" means in a very very basic sense
Unfair means rigged against him. And if it's against him then it's rigged.
posted by Slothrup at 5:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Unfair means rigged against him. And if it's against him then it's rigged.
posted by Slothrup at 5:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
@NateSilver538
Clinton won all 18 states where an above average share of the population has advanced degrees. She lost 29 of the other 32. [chart]
posted by chris24 at 5:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton won all 18 states where an above average share of the population has advanced degrees. She lost 29 of the other 32. [chart]
posted by chris24 at 5:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Shout out to the journalists. Even if they don't lose access to the White House, they have to deal with this, too.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clinton won all 18 states where an above average share of the population has advanced degrees. She lost 29 of the other 32.
Shit like this is why I can't stand Silver, even if he was the only one who had an appropriate amount of uncertainty in his aggregate predictions.
EDUCATED WHITES VOTED FOR TRUMP
posted by tobascodagama at 5:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Shit like this is why I can't stand Silver, even if he was the only one who had an appropriate amount of uncertainty in his aggregate predictions.
EDUCATED WHITES VOTED FOR TRUMP
posted by tobascodagama at 5:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
New Yorker cover: The Wall.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
So I've been following all these election threads, but am commenting for the first time now. Sorry America.
As a Canadian, I thought I understood America and Americans well enough to confidently predict that Trump wouldn't win. The funny thing is, I, (and everyone else who said so) are still kind of right, because a big part of what got Trump elected was a very broken political system. I mean, the election was rigged against Hillary, ironically.
For me and many who call other countries home, the biggest threat coming out of this is the impact on climate change. I was feeling pretty gloomy for a while there. But somehow I'm recovering. Somehow I'm almost optimistic. The world needs to learn how to lead without the United States. There's early signs that that's going on. It also means relying on countries like China, and India, and the far right movements in Europe to nevertheless take climate change seriously even as they behave in ways that we find politically repugnant. But that's the reality we live in.
But something is seriously wrong in the US about this. Something more repugnant than what any of these other countries are doing. Climate change was not discussed in the debates, and played no role in halting Trump. If America ever had any moral authority, it's certainly dead now. If one good thing can come out of this, it's that Americans stop hiding behind the idea that their way of life is good. The American way of life is killing the planet, and everyone (including me) who participate in it are complicit in this crime.
This problem is a different kind of problem than we have ever faced before, but the US has never been so dramatically on the wrong side of history. Yet for some reason, I believe that we as a planet can solve this problem without the US. I think it's going to get scary, and I think we are going to be applying highly dangerous geoengineering techniques in 30 years to stabilize the planet, but that's the world that we live in. That's the world that my son lives in. And I need to hope for it, and fight for it. And right now, the US as a country is becoming a very dark force in the world, and I hope that its citizens can somehow reverse the course. It would be much better to have the US back on board with the problems that we, the citizens of the planet, face.
posted by Alex404 at 5:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
As a Canadian, I thought I understood America and Americans well enough to confidently predict that Trump wouldn't win. The funny thing is, I, (and everyone else who said so) are still kind of right, because a big part of what got Trump elected was a very broken political system. I mean, the election was rigged against Hillary, ironically.
For me and many who call other countries home, the biggest threat coming out of this is the impact on climate change. I was feeling pretty gloomy for a while there. But somehow I'm recovering. Somehow I'm almost optimistic. The world needs to learn how to lead without the United States. There's early signs that that's going on. It also means relying on countries like China, and India, and the far right movements in Europe to nevertheless take climate change seriously even as they behave in ways that we find politically repugnant. But that's the reality we live in.
But something is seriously wrong in the US about this. Something more repugnant than what any of these other countries are doing. Climate change was not discussed in the debates, and played no role in halting Trump. If America ever had any moral authority, it's certainly dead now. If one good thing can come out of this, it's that Americans stop hiding behind the idea that their way of life is good. The American way of life is killing the planet, and everyone (including me) who participate in it are complicit in this crime.
This problem is a different kind of problem than we have ever faced before, but the US has never been so dramatically on the wrong side of history. Yet for some reason, I believe that we as a planet can solve this problem without the US. I think it's going to get scary, and I think we are going to be applying highly dangerous geoengineering techniques in 30 years to stabilize the planet, but that's the world that we live in. That's the world that my son lives in. And I need to hope for it, and fight for it. And right now, the US as a country is becoming a very dark force in the world, and I hope that its citizens can somehow reverse the course. It would be much better to have the US back on board with the problems that we, the citizens of the planet, face.
posted by Alex404 at 5:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
Hey, does anyone have a good source for updated popular vote totals? I've been checking the Google ones, and it looks like the difference has narrowed to about 300,000 votes again, but I don't know how accurate that is.
posted by corb at 5:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 5:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
corb: Cook Political Report 2016 National Popular Vote Tracker
posted by PenDevil at 5:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 5:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
corb, Nate Cohn is often tweeting about it. From his feed:
@CASOSvote
"California county elections officials estimate 4.36 million outstanding ballots to process and count." http://vote.sos.ca.gov/unprocessed-ballots-status/
@Nate_Cohn
"There are >725k votes left in Washington State. There's a lot in Colorado, Oregon and Arizona as well. Haven't checked on n though"
She'll net about a million from the remaining in California. And a couple hundred thousand from the rest of the NW. So it'll end up about a 1.5m lead. Maybe as high as 2m.
posted by chris24 at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
@CASOSvote
"California county elections officials estimate 4.36 million outstanding ballots to process and count." http://vote.sos.ca.gov/unprocessed-ballots-status/
@Nate_Cohn
"There are >725k votes left in Washington State. There's a lot in Colorado, Oregon and Arizona as well. Haven't checked on n though"
She'll net about a million from the remaining in California. And a couple hundred thousand from the rest of the NW. So it'll end up about a 1.5m lead. Maybe as high as 2m.
posted by chris24 at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fred Clark: Deny them the use of ‘we’:
On election day, they heard the opposite. Very loud and very clear. They heard it from white people — rich and poor, educated and uneducated — all over the country. And they heard it loudest and clearest of all from white evangelicals. The message of election day has already emboldened and energized them. They are convinced that their “we” has the numbers, and the power, to act with impunity. They now believe, as someone once said, “You can do anything. … Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”posted by palindromic at 5:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
We tried, and failed, to shout down their triumphant “we” on election day. Rather than revealing them to be a “pathetic rump faction,” we learned that they are a full half of the country — our neighbors and co-workers. And they’re just getting started.
And so, after the uncertain trumpet of election day, it is more important than ever to deny them that “we” — that vast and inclusive plural — everywhere else. All the time. In person. At work. At the store. In church. Online. Everywhere. Deny them the illusion of unanimity. Deny them your consent. Do not allow them to mistake silence for agreement.
And when you think about it, which of those two monstrosities did more damage to the country? (Spoiler: Reagan.) Or, for that matter, the GOP? (Spoiler: Nixon.)
I'll buy that Reagan did more damage to the country, but did Nixon really damage the GOP that much? Carter was a one-term President, and the GOP under Reagan certainly had no trouble pushing through everything they wanted.
Well, Reagan didn't damage them at all, in the long run. Quite the opposite, sadly. Nixon is the one villain they're saddled with. (Dubya seems to have escaped that judgment.) And, yes, they managed to get out from under the immediate fallout quickly. Even now, you get the mealy mouthed stuff about him getting us out of 'Nam. (Mirrored by a reluctance to remember that JFK got us into it.)
Kind of a derail, I guess. I've been brooding about long-term political shifts and legacies.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:49 AM on November 11, 2016
I'll buy that Reagan did more damage to the country, but did Nixon really damage the GOP that much? Carter was a one-term President, and the GOP under Reagan certainly had no trouble pushing through everything they wanted.
Well, Reagan didn't damage them at all, in the long run. Quite the opposite, sadly. Nixon is the one villain they're saddled with. (Dubya seems to have escaped that judgment.) And, yes, they managed to get out from under the immediate fallout quickly. Even now, you get the mealy mouthed stuff about him getting us out of 'Nam. (Mirrored by a reluctance to remember that JFK got us into it.)
Kind of a derail, I guess. I've been brooding about long-term political shifts and legacies.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:49 AM on November 11, 2016
EDUCATED WHITES VOTED FOR TRUMP
At the risk of a sounding like a tremendous asshole, this needs to be broken down. So we know who we're dealing with.
Educated, how? How many people holding a degree beyond a BA/BS (or, I suppose, an MBA) voted for Trump?
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
At the risk of a sounding like a tremendous asshole, this needs to be broken down. So we know who we're dealing with.
Educated, how? How many people holding a degree beyond a BA/BS (or, I suppose, an MBA) voted for Trump?
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
According to the Edison Exit Polls, people with postgraduate education split 58-37 for Clinton, while people with a four-year degree split 49-45 for Clinton.
(Washington Post data visualization with numbers here)
posted by palindromic at 5:57 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
(Washington Post data visualization with numbers here)
posted by palindromic at 5:57 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
When you see hatred and racism, stare in it the face. It probably won't have the courage to look back.
posted by palindromic at 5:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 5:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Shout out to the journalists. Even if they don't lose access to the White House, they have to deal with this, too.
They sure might.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
They sure might.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The world needs to learn how to lead without the United States. There's early signs that that's going on. It also means relying on countries like China, and India, and the far right movements in Europe to nevertheless take climate change seriously even as they behave in ways that we find politically repugnant. But that's the reality we live in.
Great. Our best hope as a human planet is that World War III starts because the rest of the world is sick of the U.S.'s shit and decides to do something about it by attacking us.
posted by Mchelly at 6:03 AM on November 11, 2016
Great. Our best hope as a human planet is that World War III starts because the rest of the world is sick of the U.S.'s shit and decides to do something about it by attacking us.
posted by Mchelly at 6:03 AM on November 11, 2016
According to the Edison Exit Polls, people with postgraduate education split 58-37 for Clinton, while people with a four-year degree split 49-45 for Clinton.
And some college/associates degree broke 52 /43 for Trump. [NYT]
Exactly the kind of people Trump U preyed on. Ugh.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
And some college/associates degree broke 52 /43 for Trump. [NYT]
Exactly the kind of people Trump U preyed on. Ugh.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
@jfagone
In Goebbels’s diary from 1933 he admits he was surprised to see ex-opponents sucking up so quickly after Nazis took power. Found it funny. [image]
Any Dem who caves or accommodates needs to be primaried. Time to go Tea Party.
posted by chris24 at 6:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [44 favorites]
In Goebbels’s diary from 1933 he admits he was surprised to see ex-opponents sucking up so quickly after Nazis took power. Found it funny. [image]
Any Dem who caves or accommodates needs to be primaried. Time to go Tea Party.
posted by chris24 at 6:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [44 favorites]
You know what I'd like in re the "whites who voted for Trump" thing? More breakout of why white people who didn't vote for Trump didn't vote for him. What does "educated" mean in this context, for instance? Does it mean that white people who didn't vote for Trump thought "his policies are terrible" or did it mean they thought "I see clearly that he is super racist"? Did it mean that "education" provides some kind of protective effect against racism and misogyny? What kind of education? And what about less educated white people who didn't vote for Trump? If there's any anti-Trump hope in re white voters, it lies in figuring out what distinguishes working class and lower middle class white people who voted for Trump from those who did not.
My bet is that there's myriad factors and myriad places to work - for some people "education" meant "getting away from toxic home places and encountering others in a space where you have time to think"; for some people, their unions or churches probably have an anti-racist tradition*; for some people, they live in genuinely integrated places (not just "integrated" in the sense that white and POC live on the same street but white people stay hostile); for some people, they have a value system which is pro-civil society and therefore at least strong on formal equality**.
Down the road, when people have recovered a little bit, I think it's worthwhile trying to figure that out - not to make excuses for people, but to figure out how to speak to and work with and enliven those voters and the people who might become those voters.
*Even in Indiana, there's a liberal evangelical denomination which actively supported the civil rights movement, and I happen to know because my dad grew up in it. He's pretty much a quietist politically, but he'd gnaw off a forearm before he voted for Trump.
**This is my dad and much of my family. Quietist, as I say (I'm an outlier) but formal equality and civil society are really important to them, which means that law exists to create truly equal conditions for everyone, including dismantling structural racism. There's a country/old-fashioned strain of this even in conservative areas - people think "country" means "redneck" and "hateful", and that's very, very real, but "country" sometimes can also mean "everyone must be treated fairly or it is a disgrace to the Rules". I think what you've seen in the GOP has always been an effort to destroy this strain in rural/old-fashioned communities.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
My bet is that there's myriad factors and myriad places to work - for some people "education" meant "getting away from toxic home places and encountering others in a space where you have time to think"; for some people, their unions or churches probably have an anti-racist tradition*; for some people, they live in genuinely integrated places (not just "integrated" in the sense that white and POC live on the same street but white people stay hostile); for some people, they have a value system which is pro-civil society and therefore at least strong on formal equality**.
Down the road, when people have recovered a little bit, I think it's worthwhile trying to figure that out - not to make excuses for people, but to figure out how to speak to and work with and enliven those voters and the people who might become those voters.
*Even in Indiana, there's a liberal evangelical denomination which actively supported the civil rights movement, and I happen to know because my dad grew up in it. He's pretty much a quietist politically, but he'd gnaw off a forearm before he voted for Trump.
**This is my dad and much of my family. Quietist, as I say (I'm an outlier) but formal equality and civil society are really important to them, which means that law exists to create truly equal conditions for everyone, including dismantling structural racism. There's a country/old-fashioned strain of this even in conservative areas - people think "country" means "redneck" and "hateful", and that's very, very real, but "country" sometimes can also mean "everyone must be treated fairly or it is a disgrace to the Rules". I think what you've seen in the GOP has always been an effort to destroy this strain in rural/old-fashioned communities.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
The world probably can do without the US as long as the military isn't needed, or other countries start building up their own. That's a big part of the problem though, the sets of relationships developed that the world has been using to hold itself together. if those relationships can be replaced without much grief, then things might go well, but a world that no longer relies on the US as a marker for currency and might decide to stop buying US bonds and which might lose the US as the organizing force in much of the world is one where struggles for power and economic uncertainty seems more likely. Relying on Russia and China to act the same as now with a more withdrawn US seems unlikely and other regions of the world too might have find power vacuums that want filling if the US radically changes its behavior. Who knows if what a Trump administration would do? I'm sure there'll be some trying to maintain present balances of power, but Trump's campaign sure didn't signal much interest in that. The unpredictability itself is a danger at this point.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 6:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The rise of Trump is the end of little c conservatism. Dubya had already shown that the Republican elite only paid lip service to that nonsense. Yes Republicans control Congress and the White House and will be able to reinstate their 5-4 majority in the SCOTUS. Yes liberals lost a major opportunity but we knew that the House is lost and the Senate was a stretch. Clinton was our best chance of maintaining the Obama status quo.
Repealing ACA completely is incredibly dangerous for Republicans and they know it. Putting up endless pointless votes was theater for their base. Now they actually have to repeal it and replace it with something else because Americans don't really like the government taking away stuff.
Religious liberty laws will get passed and largely get ignored because more and more of the US is becoming secular all the time and most of us don't like people hiding behind religious liberty to justify their hate.
The SCOTUS will avoid touching gay marriage with a 10' pole because while some Americans might be fearful of change the Justices know that trying to put that genie back in the bottle is impossible.
At the end of the day Trump is fundamentally a kleptocrat. He will use the engines of state to profit himself and his friends just like Dubya and just like Reagan. The truth of the matter is that while he does have some true believers in his entourage most of them are big business secularists and disruption of the economy is bad for business.
I'm not saying things will be great and a lot of people are going to get hurt but there are definitely people in the Republican party that understand quite well that Republican overreach in the next couple of years could result in a massive backlash. They'll proceed slowly because they might talk about mandates but they know they are in a difficult place demographically. If they fail to deliver what this "independent" voters want then the Democrats will just put up a change candidate and annihilate Trump in 2020.
posted by vuron at 6:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Repealing ACA completely is incredibly dangerous for Republicans and they know it. Putting up endless pointless votes was theater for their base. Now they actually have to repeal it and replace it with something else because Americans don't really like the government taking away stuff.
Religious liberty laws will get passed and largely get ignored because more and more of the US is becoming secular all the time and most of us don't like people hiding behind religious liberty to justify their hate.
The SCOTUS will avoid touching gay marriage with a 10' pole because while some Americans might be fearful of change the Justices know that trying to put that genie back in the bottle is impossible.
At the end of the day Trump is fundamentally a kleptocrat. He will use the engines of state to profit himself and his friends just like Dubya and just like Reagan. The truth of the matter is that while he does have some true believers in his entourage most of them are big business secularists and disruption of the economy is bad for business.
I'm not saying things will be great and a lot of people are going to get hurt but there are definitely people in the Republican party that understand quite well that Republican overreach in the next couple of years could result in a massive backlash. They'll proceed slowly because they might talk about mandates but they know they are in a difficult place demographically. If they fail to deliver what this "independent" voters want then the Democrats will just put up a change candidate and annihilate Trump in 2020.
posted by vuron at 6:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
In Goebbels’s diary from 1933 he admits he was surprised to see ex-opponents sucking up so quickly after Nazis took power.
The tech robber barons have wasted no time in doing the same.
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
The tech robber barons have wasted no time in doing the same.
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
But it seems to me that the primary difference between a bad president, of the kind we've had before, and something that could potentially be unprecedented, is this: once he has power, will he give it up?
That, to me, is what the fascism comparisons suggest.
I think I get where you are coming from. I am wired to be kind of ... cautious (perhaps miserly?) about applying epithets like racism or fascism. They're words that carry enormous historical baggage and evoke a strong emotional response. If I understood you correctly, I think you're right that they can be used as inflammatory rhetoric to galvanize people into action. Which can be useful, even necessary, but perhaps not always truthful (whatever that still means).
In this case there is zero doubt in my mind that Trump is a fascist. What is happening is not about appearances. It is not about institutions or democracy or the rule of law. Fascism can corrupt and degrade all of these from the inside out. While outward appearances can remain much the same, the substance is utterly destroyed. Fascism collapses the space between private and public, between self and collective. It substitutes justice and fairness with a self-evident logic of power. It brooks no dissent. Fascism kills the soul of civics.
If it wasn't already evident from the cheering Nazi's and the very very very thinly veiled threats, then just close your eyes and breathe in deeply. Do you smell it? That acrid smell is hatred inflamed, now burning bright.
posted by dmh at 6:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
That, to me, is what the fascism comparisons suggest.
I think I get where you are coming from. I am wired to be kind of ... cautious (perhaps miserly?) about applying epithets like racism or fascism. They're words that carry enormous historical baggage and evoke a strong emotional response. If I understood you correctly, I think you're right that they can be used as inflammatory rhetoric to galvanize people into action. Which can be useful, even necessary, but perhaps not always truthful (whatever that still means).
In this case there is zero doubt in my mind that Trump is a fascist. What is happening is not about appearances. It is not about institutions or democracy or the rule of law. Fascism can corrupt and degrade all of these from the inside out. While outward appearances can remain much the same, the substance is utterly destroyed. Fascism collapses the space between private and public, between self and collective. It substitutes justice and fairness with a self-evident logic of power. It brooks no dissent. Fascism kills the soul of civics.
If it wasn't already evident from the cheering Nazi's and the very very very thinly veiled threats, then just close your eyes and breathe in deeply. Do you smell it? That acrid smell is hatred inflamed, now burning bright.
posted by dmh at 6:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
My bet is that there's myriad factors and myriad places to work
There must be, but looking at the split between AA vs. BA/BS vs. postgrad degrees some important points might be (a) receiving an actual college education, instead of spending two years making up for a substandard high school education, or flunking out with debt due to being unprepared (b) time spent in residence with other students and around the professorial class, and to mature as an adult in the college bubble, as vs. the experience of a working commuter student at a community college (c) affiliation, however loose or temporary, with an actual artistic/scholarly/scientific discipline as vs. a two-year degree in 'management' or 'communications,' etc (d) actual return on investment vs. being caught up in the Federally underwritten loan-sharking by for-profit two-year schools and vocational academies.
Which would align with my own personally observed anecdata on facebook and extended networks of acquaintance, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
There must be, but looking at the split between AA vs. BA/BS vs. postgrad degrees some important points might be (a) receiving an actual college education, instead of spending two years making up for a substandard high school education, or flunking out with debt due to being unprepared (b) time spent in residence with other students and around the professorial class, and to mature as an adult in the college bubble, as vs. the experience of a working commuter student at a community college (c) affiliation, however loose or temporary, with an actual artistic/scholarly/scientific discipline as vs. a two-year degree in 'management' or 'communications,' etc (d) actual return on investment vs. being caught up in the Federally underwritten loan-sharking by for-profit two-year schools and vocational academies.
Which would align with my own personally observed anecdata on facebook and extended networks of acquaintance, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
As much as I hate seeing Obama compelled to shake Trump's hand, I have to commend the President for his maturity.
I think he's being very strategic.
With his show of welcome, and this long consultation session, he is subtly undermining Trump's status as The Outsider. He's wafting the scent of officialness at Trump -- and that makes it harder for Trump to play the renegade. It's the first volley in the propaganda war for 2020.
Can't say "Drain the Swamp" if you're Swamp Thing.
posted by seinwave at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think he's being very strategic.
With his show of welcome, and this long consultation session, he is subtly undermining Trump's status as The Outsider. He's wafting the scent of officialness at Trump -- and that makes it harder for Trump to play the renegade. It's the first volley in the propaganda war for 2020.
Can't say "Drain the Swamp" if you're Swamp Thing.
posted by seinwave at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
I wonder if Obama said "Look man, we know [XYZ] about your ties to Russia..."
posted by beau jackson at 6:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I wonder if Obama said "Look man, we know [XYZ] about your ties to Russia..."
posted by beau jackson at 6:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
He is subtly undermining Trump's status as The Outsider. He's wafting the scent of officialness at Trump -- and that makes it harder for Trump to play the renegade.
'Trump Gives Supporters the Finger by Installing Insiders' is CNN's new angle, in so many words. [video autoplays] Likewise, NBC.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
'Trump Gives Supporters the Finger by Installing Insiders' is CNN's new angle, in so many words. [video autoplays] Likewise, NBC.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
His confusion is more polite than what I'm feeling.
@deray
I am still confused by the folks who actively told people not to vote or actively worked against HRC who are now in dismay. I don't get it.
posted by chris24 at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [34 favorites]
@deray
I am still confused by the folks who actively told people not to vote or actively worked against HRC who are now in dismay. I don't get it.
posted by chris24 at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [34 favorites]
Anti-Trump protesters march for 3rd night; Portland police call it a 'riot' [CNN, video autoplays]
Be careful out there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Be careful out there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
He's wafting the scent of officialness at Trump -- and that makes it harder for Trump to play the renegade.
Obama is one of the coolest operators ever in politics, and his body language is saying "You're one of us now, whatever crap you said to get here. This is big boys' rules from now on, and certain things will be expected of you. Get with the program, fast."
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Obama is one of the coolest operators ever in politics, and his body language is saying "You're one of us now, whatever crap you said to get here. This is big boys' rules from now on, and certain things will be expected of you. Get with the program, fast."
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
The world needs to learn how to lead without the United States. There's early signs that that's going on. It also means relying on countries like China, and India, and the far right movements in Europe to nevertheless take climate change seriously even as they behave in ways that we find politically repugnant. But that's the reality we live in.
Excerpt from comment by Alex404
----
Michelly responds: Great. Our best hope as a human planet is that World War III starts because the rest of the world is sick of the U.S.'s shit and decides to do something about it by attacking us.
Puzzled Brit here: I don't understand how other countries taking the lead on climate change is attacking the USA.
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Excerpt from comment by Alex404
----
Michelly responds: Great. Our best hope as a human planet is that World War III starts because the rest of the world is sick of the U.S.'s shit and decides to do something about it by attacking us.
Puzzled Brit here: I don't understand how other countries taking the lead on climate change is attacking the USA.
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
That was meant more literally, I'm afraid. Dust off the Spitfires.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:52 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:52 AM on November 11, 2016
You know, if the EU forms its own common defence force to keep the Russians out, Trump's USA allies with Russia, and Britain follows obediently behind, it's basically WW2 in reverse.
posted by acb at 6:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by acb at 6:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Bust of Donald Trump already in the works for Disney’s Hall of Presidents: The Hall of Presidents will be closed from January 17-June 29, 2017 for the addition of the new president, who will be sworn into office on January 20. The attraction closed for 8 months in 2008 to add the Barack Obama audio-animatronic.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2016
Can't say "Drain the Swamp" if you're Swamp Thing.
Pretty sure "consistent positions" and "lack of hypocrisy" aren't something we should hold our breath for, in terms of expectations of the people who voted for this buffoon.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Pretty sure "consistent positions" and "lack of hypocrisy" aren't something we should hold our breath for, in terms of expectations of the people who voted for this buffoon.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
So it seems it's Ellison.
@frankthorp
Aide confirms Sen Schumer (D-NY) supports @keithellison for DNC Chair, saying the two spoke yesterday.
posted by chris24 at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
@frankthorp
Aide confirms Sen Schumer (D-NY) supports @keithellison for DNC Chair, saying the two spoke yesterday.
posted by chris24 at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
3 Paths the Trump Administration Can Take
Possibility No. 1: Trump acts like he did during most of the campaign — constantly creating chaos and pursuing vendettas that distract him from his main work.posted by kirkaracha at 7:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Possibility No. 2: Trump will help the GOP Congress execute a brisk and rather traditional conservative policy revolution.
Possibility No. 3: Trump remakes GOP in his image and aggressively pushes for populist policies.
No. 1 is cover for No.2, clearing the way for No.3.
They're helpfully numbered for the red hat brigade.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:04 AM on November 11, 2016
They're helpfully numbered for the red hat brigade.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:04 AM on November 11, 2016
Even Trump’s Closest Advisers Aren’t Quite Sure How He’ll Govern
If you’re one of the millions of Americans wrestling with the question of how Donald Trump will govern as president, consider this: His inner circle doesn’t know either. Since Tuesday’s stunning election result, I’ve spoken with Trump advisers and GOP officials in Washington about the state of Trump’s transition planning to get a sense of what kind of place the Trump White House will be. What they describe is a candidate who is still something of a mystery, even to them. “It is basically a blank slate that needs to be filled in,” one senior adviser says.posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do not think speculation about a war between the US and the rest of the world is helpful.
And also, the US would win it.
Let's just not with this, things are bad enough without mindless apocalyptism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
And also, the US would win it.
Let's just not with this, things are bad enough without mindless apocalyptism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just got this email:
Like many of you, the 300+ members of the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus family - singers, staff and volunteers - have, along with the entire LGBTQ community, spent the last few days navigating our collective way through feelings of shock and despair. Rather than succumbing to feelings of hopelessness and helplessness, we've asked "what can we do to make a difference?"
In response to the recent presidential election and the voices of the so-called "silent majority," SFGMC will pursue a "Red State Freedom Tour" in the summer of 2018.
While the exact itinerary has not been determined, it is our plan to go on a whistle stop tour through those states where the LGBTQ community is struggling, and likely feeling even further marginalized after the election results. We hope our presence and our music will encourage our brothers and sisters, educate others and challenge those communities to think differently.
The tour will cap off our monumental 40th Season and commemorate how SFGMC launched the global LGBTQ choral movement in 1978. We can think of no better way to use our time, talent, resources and energy than to take our message through music to those who need it most. We, as a country, have a long road to travel, and we believe this tour is a step in the right direction that will build bridges of understanding, compassion and empathy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [67 favorites]
Like many of you, the 300+ members of the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus family - singers, staff and volunteers - have, along with the entire LGBTQ community, spent the last few days navigating our collective way through feelings of shock and despair. Rather than succumbing to feelings of hopelessness and helplessness, we've asked "what can we do to make a difference?"
In response to the recent presidential election and the voices of the so-called "silent majority," SFGMC will pursue a "Red State Freedom Tour" in the summer of 2018.
While the exact itinerary has not been determined, it is our plan to go on a whistle stop tour through those states where the LGBTQ community is struggling, and likely feeling even further marginalized after the election results. We hope our presence and our music will encourage our brothers and sisters, educate others and challenge those communities to think differently.
The tour will cap off our monumental 40th Season and commemorate how SFGMC launched the global LGBTQ choral movement in 1978. We can think of no better way to use our time, talent, resources and energy than to take our message through music to those who need it most. We, as a country, have a long road to travel, and we believe this tour is a step in the right direction that will build bridges of understanding, compassion and empathy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [67 favorites]
Clinton is on pace to win the popular vote by a larger % than Gore in 2000.
And Nixon in 1968.
And Kennedy in 1960.
Clinton’s Substantial Popular-Vote Win
posted by chris24 at 7:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
And Nixon in 1968.
And Kennedy in 1960.
Clinton’s Substantial Popular-Vote Win
posted by chris24 at 7:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
Aide confirms Sen Schumer (D-NY) supports @keithellison for DNC Chair, saying the two spoke yesterday.
Ellison is amazing, and I do like the symbolism of making sure that we get a real African-American Muslim to work against Trump.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Ellison is amazing, and I do like the symbolism of making sure that we get a real African-American Muslim to work against Trump.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Pretty sure "consistent positions" and "lack of hypocrisy" aren't something we should hold our breath for, in terms of expectations of the people who voted for this buffoon.
This is where I am at this morning: I want journalists, friends, and family members to pin his supporters down and get them on the record.
What do you want him to accomplish?
Which of his campaign promises do you think he will keep?
Which ones do you think he will forget about?
I would love every supporter to vocalize these answers so that they and we can remember this moment. I was never dismayed that I campaigned for Obama and while he did not accomplish everything he promised, I believe he tried. I wonder how many Trump supporters will be able to say the same thing in 4 years?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is where I am at this morning: I want journalists, friends, and family members to pin his supporters down and get them on the record.
What do you want him to accomplish?
Which of his campaign promises do you think he will keep?
Which ones do you think he will forget about?
I would love every supporter to vocalize these answers so that they and we can remember this moment. I was never dismayed that I campaigned for Obama and while he did not accomplish everything he promised, I believe he tried. I wonder how many Trump supporters will be able to say the same thing in 4 years?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton is on pace to win the popular vote by a larger % than Gore in 2000.
I find it hard to take encouragement in a margin of a few million people when 59.5M American citizens have voted for Trump.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I find it hard to take encouragement in a margin of a few million people when 59.5M American citizens have voted for Trump.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh and one more thing. I want to point out to all of my family members who voted for Trump that when the Republicans do things that harm them personally, the Republicans will try to pin the blame on Obama. They have already started.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
the prompt: The Obamas Deserve Better: Part of me wants Trump to bear the hardships that President Obama has—knowing full well that that statement is laughable given his white and his political privilege, including a Senate majority and open Supreme Court seat.
I want him to have to plod. To trudge. To suffer.
But then I remember the Obamas, and I remember they deserve better.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I want him to have to plod. To trudge. To suffer.
But then I remember the Obamas, and I remember they deserve better.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Harry Reid spitting fire in his statement on Trump's election.
“I have personally been on the ballot in Nevada for 26 elections and I have never seen anything like the reaction to the election completed last Tuesday. The election of Donald Trump has emboldened the forces of hate and bigotry in America.
“White nationalists, Vladimir Putin and ISIS are celebrating Donald Trump’s victory, while innocent, law-abiding Americans are wracked with fear – especially African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Muslim Americans, LGBT Americans and Asian Americans. Watching white nationalists celebrate while innocent Americans cry tears of fear does not feel like America.
“I have heard more stories in the past 48 hours of Americans living in fear of their own government and their fellow Americans than I can remember hearing in five decades in politics. Hispanic Americans who fear their families will be torn apart, African Americans being heckled on the street, Muslim Americans afraid to wear a headscarf, gay and lesbian couples having slurs hurled at them and feeling afraid to walk down the street holding hands. American children waking up in the middle of the night crying, terrified that Trump will take their parents away. Young girls unable to understand why a man who brags about sexually assaulting women has been elected president.
“I have a large family. I have one daughter and twelve granddaughters. The texts, emails and phone calls I have received from them have been filled with fear – fear for themselves, fear for their Hispanic and African American friends, for their Muslim and Jewish friends, for their LBGT friends, for their Asian friends. I’ve felt their tears and I’ve felt their fear.
“We as a nation must find a way to move forward without consigning those who Trump has threatened to the shadows. Their fear is entirely rational, because Donald Trump has talked openly about doing terrible things to them. Every news piece that breathlessly obsesses over inauguration preparations compounds their fear by normalizing a man who has threatened to tear families apart, who has bragged about sexually assaulting women and who has directed crowds of thousands to intimidate reporters and assault African Americans. Their fear is legitimate and we must refuse to let it fall through the cracks between the fluff pieces.
“If this is going to be a time of healing, we must first put the responsibility for healing where it belongs: at the feet of Donald Trump, a sexual predator who lost the popular vote and fueled his campaign with bigotry and hate. Winning the electoral college does not absolve Trump of the grave sins he committed against millions of Americans. Donald Trump may not possess the capacity to assuage those fears, but he owes it to this nation to try.
“If Trump wants to roll back the tide of hate he unleashed, he has a tremendous amount of work to do and he must begin immediately.”
posted by chris24 at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [109 favorites]
“I have personally been on the ballot in Nevada for 26 elections and I have never seen anything like the reaction to the election completed last Tuesday. The election of Donald Trump has emboldened the forces of hate and bigotry in America.
“White nationalists, Vladimir Putin and ISIS are celebrating Donald Trump’s victory, while innocent, law-abiding Americans are wracked with fear – especially African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Muslim Americans, LGBT Americans and Asian Americans. Watching white nationalists celebrate while innocent Americans cry tears of fear does not feel like America.
“I have heard more stories in the past 48 hours of Americans living in fear of their own government and their fellow Americans than I can remember hearing in five decades in politics. Hispanic Americans who fear their families will be torn apart, African Americans being heckled on the street, Muslim Americans afraid to wear a headscarf, gay and lesbian couples having slurs hurled at them and feeling afraid to walk down the street holding hands. American children waking up in the middle of the night crying, terrified that Trump will take their parents away. Young girls unable to understand why a man who brags about sexually assaulting women has been elected president.
“I have a large family. I have one daughter and twelve granddaughters. The texts, emails and phone calls I have received from them have been filled with fear – fear for themselves, fear for their Hispanic and African American friends, for their Muslim and Jewish friends, for their LBGT friends, for their Asian friends. I’ve felt their tears and I’ve felt their fear.
“We as a nation must find a way to move forward without consigning those who Trump has threatened to the shadows. Their fear is entirely rational, because Donald Trump has talked openly about doing terrible things to them. Every news piece that breathlessly obsesses over inauguration preparations compounds their fear by normalizing a man who has threatened to tear families apart, who has bragged about sexually assaulting women and who has directed crowds of thousands to intimidate reporters and assault African Americans. Their fear is legitimate and we must refuse to let it fall through the cracks between the fluff pieces.
“If this is going to be a time of healing, we must first put the responsibility for healing where it belongs: at the feet of Donald Trump, a sexual predator who lost the popular vote and fueled his campaign with bigotry and hate. Winning the electoral college does not absolve Trump of the grave sins he committed against millions of Americans. Donald Trump may not possess the capacity to assuage those fears, but he owes it to this nation to try.
“If Trump wants to roll back the tide of hate he unleashed, he has a tremendous amount of work to do and he must begin immediately.”
posted by chris24 at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [109 favorites]
I like Keith Ellison, but the job of rebuilding the party and finding good candidates needs to be a full time job. If he becomes DNC chair he should resign from Congress.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
And also, the US would win it.
I love you, but we have already lost. The apocalyptism isn't mindless, it's realistic. Get ready to be a climate change fugitive. The decline of American Hegemony also means the decline of a precarious world system of states, states that were at least vocally willing to cooperate on massive agreements not to destroy the commons.
The US was a faithless and grudging participant, but it was a participant, and that is likely gone. Brexit may well destroy the EU. The two largest countries by population already experience regular local pollution of the shared environment to such an extent that it's a global health crisis, and, as we've seen recently with Flint/OK/PA the US is tagging right along. The blinkered Suharto approach to an economy and country the size of the US will mean food insecurity and environmental holocaust for people with munitions.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I love you, but we have already lost. The apocalyptism isn't mindless, it's realistic. Get ready to be a climate change fugitive. The decline of American Hegemony also means the decline of a precarious world system of states, states that were at least vocally willing to cooperate on massive agreements not to destroy the commons.
The US was a faithless and grudging participant, but it was a participant, and that is likely gone. Brexit may well destroy the EU. The two largest countries by population already experience regular local pollution of the shared environment to such an extent that it's a global health crisis, and, as we've seen recently with Flint/OK/PA the US is tagging right along. The blinkered Suharto approach to an economy and country the size of the US will mean food insecurity and environmental holocaust for people with munitions.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Decorating the White House: What the Trumps Can and Can’t Do
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This series of tweets.
@leahmcelrath
There is a distinct likelihood a post Trump Administration America will be unrecognizable, and many things we take for granted will be gone.
Sobering and only the tip of the iceberg.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
@leahmcelrath
There is a distinct likelihood a post Trump Administration America will be unrecognizable, and many things we take for granted will be gone.
Sobering and only the tip of the iceberg.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
I do not think speculation about a war between the US and the rest of the world is helpful.
Agreed. Here's what WILL happen if Trump stays stupid about the Paris Conference.
As the signatory nations start taking hard steps to curb their emissions, the US's refusal will result in the world's trade system orienting itself around the Paris Conference. This is explicitly the idea behind Paris: make cooperation a requirement for enjoying trade links.
The WTO will be gradually unwound. So will GATT.
The rest of the world will "spare us" the affliction of free trade, and we'll have ourselves a nice, stagnant, economically isolated Argentina in which to stew about our fate and blame Obama.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Agreed. Here's what WILL happen if Trump stays stupid about the Paris Conference.
As the signatory nations start taking hard steps to curb their emissions, the US's refusal will result in the world's trade system orienting itself around the Paris Conference. This is explicitly the idea behind Paris: make cooperation a requirement for enjoying trade links.
The WTO will be gradually unwound. So will GATT.
The rest of the world will "spare us" the affliction of free trade, and we'll have ourselves a nice, stagnant, economically isolated Argentina in which to stew about our fate and blame Obama.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sobering and only the tip of the iceberg.
Iceberg? That may soon only be a figure of speech.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Iceberg? That may soon only be a figure of speech.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Bust of Donald Trump already in the works for Disney’s Hall of Presidents: The Hall of Presidents will be closed from January 17-June 29, 2017 for the addition of the new president, who will be sworn into office on January 20. The attraction closed for 8 months in 2008 to add the Barack Obama audio-animatronic.
The new animatronic will only take 5 months because all he says is BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY and his face is made of yam.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The new animatronic will only take 5 months because all he says is BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY BIGLY and his face is made of yam.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Obama is one of the coolest operators ever in politics, and his body language is saying "You're one of us now, whatever crap you said to get here. This is big boys' rules from now on, and certain things will be expected of you. Get with the program, fast."
If he thinks it's worth a try, I will not second guess him.
But I can't hold out that kind of hope. What Trump needs to be up against now is constant, constant attrition.
posted by ocschwar at 7:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I like Keith Ellison, but the job of rebuilding the party and finding good candidates needs to be a full time job. If he becomes DNC chair he should resign from Congress.
What happens in this case - is there a special election or is another one appointed? It looks like it's by special election for the Minnesota state legislature, but I can't seem to find this information for the US House of Representatives.
I've got faith in my district that we'd be able to appoint another good candidate, though I don't know off the top of my head who it would be, and probably would not be quite as awesome as Ellison. I could start making some inquiries, though and start working for them ASAP.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
What happens in this case - is there a special election or is another one appointed? It looks like it's by special election for the Minnesota state legislature, but I can't seem to find this information for the US House of Representatives.
I've got faith in my district that we'd be able to appoint another good candidate, though I don't know off the top of my head who it would be, and probably would not be quite as awesome as Ellison. I could start making some inquiries, though and start working for them ASAP.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Spotted walking into Trump Tower this Morning: Bossie, Bannon, Hicks, Lewandowski, Parscale, Giuliani, Jason Miller, Stephen Miller. (twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2016
Agreed. Here's what WILL happen if Trump stays stupid about the Paris Conference.
As the signatory nations start taking hard steps to curb their emissions, the US's refusal will result in the world's trade system orienting itself around the Paris Conference. This is explicitly the idea behind Paris: make cooperation a requirement for enjoying trade links.
The WTO will be gradually unwound. So will GATT.
The rest of the world will "spare us" the affliction of free trade, and we'll have ourselves a nice, stagnant, economically isolated Argentina in which to stew about our fate and blame Obama.
I have contact with people that know what's currently being talked about in the 'halls' in Marrakech right now. Trump getting elected is having a seismic shift in how the US is viewed. It's no longer an ally and no longer can be depended on for anything. It's devastating because of the sheer power of it's current economic might as well as the sense that it held some moral social power of being on the good side. Unless Trump does a 180 in terms of the most important problem in the world right now the US is now a rogue state and is going to be looked at as one.
The world is going to align around climate change and use whatever power lever is possible because there is no other choice. The situation is just that dire. I expect that we're going to see some really wtf? alliances start to form.
posted by Jalliah at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [55 favorites]
As the signatory nations start taking hard steps to curb their emissions, the US's refusal will result in the world's trade system orienting itself around the Paris Conference. This is explicitly the idea behind Paris: make cooperation a requirement for enjoying trade links.
The WTO will be gradually unwound. So will GATT.
The rest of the world will "spare us" the affliction of free trade, and we'll have ourselves a nice, stagnant, economically isolated Argentina in which to stew about our fate and blame Obama.
I have contact with people that know what's currently being talked about in the 'halls' in Marrakech right now. Trump getting elected is having a seismic shift in how the US is viewed. It's no longer an ally and no longer can be depended on for anything. It's devastating because of the sheer power of it's current economic might as well as the sense that it held some moral social power of being on the good side. Unless Trump does a 180 in terms of the most important problem in the world right now the US is now a rogue state and is going to be looked at as one.
The world is going to align around climate change and use whatever power lever is possible because there is no other choice. The situation is just that dire. I expect that we're going to see some really wtf? alliances start to form.
posted by Jalliah at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [55 favorites]
I like Keith Ellison, but the job of rebuilding the party and finding good candidates needs to be a full time job.
Yeah, this is a pretty good argument against Sen. Ellison.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is a pretty good argument against Sen. Ellison.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, I guess at least CNN won't have to worry about that embarrassing Lewandowski sitch for too much longer.
posted by valkane at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by valkane at 7:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, I guess at least CNN won't have to worry about that embarrassing Lewandowski sitch for too much longer.
CNN has made a shitload of money selling Trump as a product during his campaign, don't know why they'd stop now that he's in office.
posted by muddgirl at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
CNN has made a shitload of money selling Trump as a product during his campaign, don't know why they'd stop now that he's in office.
posted by muddgirl at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The world is going to align around climate change and use whatever power lever is possible because there is no other choice. The situation is just that dire. I expect that we're going to see some really wtf? alliances start to form.
Weirdly, this makes me feel better. Because its a reminder that someone, somewhere gives a shit and is trying to do something.
posted by anastasiav at 7:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Weirdly, this makes me feel better. Because its a reminder that someone, somewhere gives a shit and is trying to do something.
posted by anastasiav at 7:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Best case scenario re: climate change is that the pressure of a united International community plus the trade penalties and the resulting hit to the US economy brings the issue to the forefront of the 2020 campaign. And I mean "screaming from the rooftops and protests in the streets" kind of forefront. Trump got off easy on his denialism and the press/moderators just never ever ever made it an issue of note. Ever. Make them talk about it. Make them justify it. Make them face it.
posted by lydhre at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, I just figured he'd be Minister of Truth or some such, and no longer employed by CNN. Also, does the mandate of the recent election mean FOX can just hire Roger Ailes back, no questions asked? Or do you think he'll end up an administration tool as well?
posted by valkane at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by valkane at 7:52 AM on November 11, 2016
I like Keith Ellison, but the job of rebuilding the party and finding good candidates needs to be a full time job. If he becomes DNC chair he should resign from Congress.
Being a member of Congress in the minority party isn't a full-time job, though. He can put most of his time into the DNC position and just sort phone it in as a representative with no significant loss to the party or to his constituents.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Being a member of Congress in the minority party isn't a full-time job, though. He can put most of his time into the DNC position and just sort phone it in as a representative with no significant loss to the party or to his constituents.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love you, but we have already lost. The apocalyptism isn't mindless, it's realistic. Get ready to be a climate change fugitive. The decline of American Hegemony also means the decline of a precarious world system of states, states that were at least vocally willing to cooperate on massive agreements not to destroy the commons.
The US was a faithless and grudging participant, but it was a participant, and that is likely gone. Brexit may well destroy the EU. The two largest countries by population already experience regular local pollution of the shared environment to such an extent that it's a global health crisis, and, as we've seen recently with Flint/OK/PA the US is tagging right along. The blinkered Suharto approach to an economy and country the size of the US will mean food insecurity and environmental holocaust for people with munitions.
I'm not saying the issue of climate change is now even more fucked. I'm saying that we don't need to start speculating about the US and the rest of the world engaged in a new global conflict. There are enough horrors already in the cards.
It's true that American hegemony is over. The world order that was constructed over the ruins of 1945 has been smashed, for better in some ways (but mostly for worse). We can hope that this new epoch will bring new democratic, multi-polar leadership to the world stage. I'm not sure where to look, honestly. From India to the Philippines, Turkey, the UK, the US, Russia, the Middle East -- there is an immense shadow falling across our planet.
But if the peoples of the world could withstand the horrors of two generations of world war and still, after all that, work toward peace: so can we.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The US was a faithless and grudging participant, but it was a participant, and that is likely gone. Brexit may well destroy the EU. The two largest countries by population already experience regular local pollution of the shared environment to such an extent that it's a global health crisis, and, as we've seen recently with Flint/OK/PA the US is tagging right along. The blinkered Suharto approach to an economy and country the size of the US will mean food insecurity and environmental holocaust for people with munitions.
I'm not saying the issue of climate change is now even more fucked. I'm saying that we don't need to start speculating about the US and the rest of the world engaged in a new global conflict. There are enough horrors already in the cards.
It's true that American hegemony is over. The world order that was constructed over the ruins of 1945 has been smashed, for better in some ways (but mostly for worse). We can hope that this new epoch will bring new democratic, multi-polar leadership to the world stage. I'm not sure where to look, honestly. From India to the Philippines, Turkey, the UK, the US, Russia, the Middle East -- there is an immense shadow falling across our planet.
But if the peoples of the world could withstand the horrors of two generations of world war and still, after all that, work toward peace: so can we.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
They only had nuclear weapons at the end of that second one though. Now?
Is lowering the level of speculation better if the speculation is imminently plausible? Minimizing the possible ills can lead to normalizing, which in some cases leads to even worse problems.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is lowering the level of speculation better if the speculation is imminently plausible? Minimizing the possible ills can lead to normalizing, which in some cases leads to even worse problems.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is a pretty good argument against Sen. Ellison.
Ellison is already used to working twice as hard as everyone else.
posted by maxsparber at 8:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Ellison is already used to working twice as hard as everyone else.
posted by maxsparber at 8:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
According to grauniad live updates:
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [39 favorites]
Organizers are planning a “million women march” on Washington, DC, on Saturday, 21 January, the day after the inauguration.Facebook page
This is an INCLUSIVE march, and EVERYONE who supports women’s rights are welcome:
- Women & Girls & Femmes & GNC
- Men & Boys
- Families
- People of Color
- Immigrants
- LGBTQ Community
- Disabled Folks
- Climate Change Advocates
- ALL religious communities
- Anyone else who wants to come out in support!
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [39 favorites]
Yeah, this is a pretty good argument against Sen. Ellison.
He's a Congressman, not a Senator.
posted by chris24 at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2016
He's a Congressman, not a Senator.
posted by chris24 at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2016
I'd support giving Ellison a shot, something new clearly needs to be done to, at the very least signal the Dems are not seeing this as business as usual. I don't care if there's pride involved in showing they weren't wrong in the first place, anything that works to build support is the more important issue.
I left Minnesota shortly after Ellison took office, but I was impressed with the man and from what I've read since I think he'd be likely to do a good job. And it is a nice fuck you to Trumpism too in its way, which is its own reward.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I left Minnesota shortly after Ellison took office, but I was impressed with the man and from what I've read since I think he'd be likely to do a good job. And it is a nice fuck you to Trumpism too in its way, which is its own reward.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:14 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thousands of nuclear weapons have already been used on our planet, including two directed at populated areas. That is a tragedy, but it's a tragedy on a different order than an actual MAD-style nuclear holocaust would be.
I said somewhere upthread that I hope people are working furiously on ways to dismantle our nuclear arsenal before Trump takes the reins of power. I still hope that's the case. But, I mean, what's the point even of speculating about this? If people honestly believe that the human race is going to wipe itself out in the next four years, then get off the internet, run up your credit cards and do what you want until the bombs fall.
But I continue to believe there is hope, and work to be done, and I'll continue in the struggle for peace and for justice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I said somewhere upthread that I hope people are working furiously on ways to dismantle our nuclear arsenal before Trump takes the reins of power. I still hope that's the case. But, I mean, what's the point even of speculating about this? If people honestly believe that the human race is going to wipe itself out in the next four years, then get off the internet, run up your credit cards and do what you want until the bombs fall.
But I continue to believe there is hope, and work to be done, and I'll continue in the struggle for peace and for justice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
He's a Congressman, not a Senator.
Ah, mea culpa.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:21 AM on November 11, 2016
Ah, mea culpa.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:21 AM on November 11, 2016
If Ellison gets it I'll support him but I agree with the above - I don't wanting any sitting Dem politician to take the DNC post because then they'll have two full-time jobs to contend with. Ellison would have to resign from his committee assignments and one of his assignments is on the House Financial Services Committee - is that a voice we can lose right now?
Also, Dean got us Congress in 2006 and the WH in 2008. We lost Congress when he lost the Chair. People need to remember that he's a man that gets results and that is what we need.
posted by asteria at 8:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, Dean got us Congress in 2006 and the WH in 2008. We lost Congress when he lost the Chair. People need to remember that he's a man that gets results and that is what we need.
posted by asteria at 8:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
It seems that people keep agonizing over the fact that Clinton received fewer Democratic votes than Obama. There's a simple reason for that. Sexism. Clinton did worse among whites than Obama. But when you break that down, she did better among white woman but worse than Obama, much worse, among white men.
And the same goes for minorities. People have remarked on how her minority vote went down compared to Obama, but if you look closer, you find it was only among men. For example, Obama got 93% of the black vote. Clinton got the same 93% -- of black women. But she only got 80% of black men. The same pattern emerges for Hispanic men.
So when you are looking for the missing Democratic votes, its men.
You hear talk about Clinton's "baggage" for lack of enthusiasm. Well apparently women didn't see "baggage.'' Only men saw "baggage", that is, any excuse not to vote for a woman.
Clinton was hit by the one-two punch of racism and sexism. She could have beaten one or the other, as did Obama, but not both simultaneously.
posted by JackFlash at 8:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [59 favorites]
And the same goes for minorities. People have remarked on how her minority vote went down compared to Obama, but if you look closer, you find it was only among men. For example, Obama got 93% of the black vote. Clinton got the same 93% -- of black women. But she only got 80% of black men. The same pattern emerges for Hispanic men.
So when you are looking for the missing Democratic votes, its men.
You hear talk about Clinton's "baggage" for lack of enthusiasm. Well apparently women didn't see "baggage.'' Only men saw "baggage", that is, any excuse not to vote for a woman.
Clinton was hit by the one-two punch of racism and sexism. She could have beaten one or the other, as did Obama, but not both simultaneously.
posted by JackFlash at 8:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [59 favorites]
But I continue to believe there is hope, and work to be done, and I'll continue in the struggle for peace and for justice.
Oh, yes, one shouldn't give up hope or stop working, it was more about trying to get those who didn't and don't see a problem to realize one is there that I was thinking of. Trump is like climate change to many, I think, not really a noticeable problem until it is and then it's likely too late. One might say something similar about reaction to some other past world leaders too, but I'm trying to refrain from Godwinning.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, yes, one shouldn't give up hope or stop working, it was more about trying to get those who didn't and don't see a problem to realize one is there that I was thinking of. Trump is like climate change to many, I think, not really a noticeable problem until it is and then it's likely too late. One might say something similar about reaction to some other past world leaders too, but I'm trying to refrain from Godwinning.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dean got us Congress in 2006
look at partisan control of governorships + state legislatures in 2000 vs 2010 and likely 2020 and subsequent redrawing of congressional maps after reapportionment plus effects of Voting Rights Act being gutted; zombie FDR couldn't win Congress for the Democrats as things stand.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
look at partisan control of governorships + state legislatures in 2000 vs 2010 and likely 2020 and subsequent redrawing of congressional maps after reapportionment plus effects of Voting Rights Act being gutted; zombie FDR couldn't win Congress for the Democrats as things stand.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess the thing that keeps me sane is 2004-2010. Republicans went from winning the White House and both houses of Congress in 2004 - having a supposed permanent majority - to losing both houses of Congress in 2006 and the Whitehouse in a landslide in 2008.
And Dems went from a landslide 10 million vote, 365 EV Presidential landslide, control of the House and a super-majority (briefly) in the Senate to losing the House badly in 2010. Things can switch quick, especially when one party has all the power. And given how unpopular Trump is even within his own party, and incompetent he and his team look to be, hopefully history repeats.
That's not to say horrible things didn't happen during those periods and that they won't now. They most certainly will. But we have to fight to get the power back as quickly as possible to mitigate it and at least history shows us it's very possible.
posted by chris24 at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
And Dems went from a landslide 10 million vote, 365 EV Presidential landslide, control of the House and a super-majority (briefly) in the Senate to losing the House badly in 2010. Things can switch quick, especially when one party has all the power. And given how unpopular Trump is even within his own party, and incompetent he and his team look to be, hopefully history repeats.
That's not to say horrible things didn't happen during those periods and that they won't now. They most certainly will. But we have to fight to get the power back as quickly as possible to mitigate it and at least history shows us it's very possible.
posted by chris24 at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Someone needs to make a list of all Trump's promises and when he breaks them. He's already walking back some of his promises and needs to be held to account. The suckers that voted for him thinking he'd actually help them need to be reminded.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:41 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by kirkaracha at 8:41 AM on November 11, 2016
All of the things he promised are horrible so if he breaks them and his supporters don't notice, isn't that kind of a best-case scenario? Do we want white America standing up to demand the deportation squads they were promised?
posted by theodolite at 8:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 8:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
The protests seem to me like closing the barn door after the horses are gone. Unless all of the protestors voted for Clinton and worked to get out the vote it seems like energy that could've been used earlier when it might've changed the outcome.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
All of the things he promised are horrible so if he breaks them and his supporters don't notice, isn't that kind of a best-case scenario? Do we want white America standing up to demand the deportation squads they were promised?
No, we want them to be split and discouraged in the next election.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
All of the things he promised are horrible so if he breaks them and his supporters don't notice, isn't that kind of a best-case scenario? Do we want white America standing up to demand the deportation squads they were promised?
Most of the people I've talked to don't "really" seem to believe that the wall or the deportation squads are happening, but they do seem to believe, for whatever reason, that jobs will be coming back to rural areas and the steel mills will reopen. Bring that up as much as possible.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Most of the people I've talked to don't "really" seem to believe that the wall or the deportation squads are happening, but they do seem to believe, for whatever reason, that jobs will be coming back to rural areas and the steel mills will reopen. Bring that up as much as possible.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Anti-Trump protesters march for 3rd night; Portland police call it a 'riot' [CNN, video autoplays]
Be careful out there.
Before the Trumpists try and spin this into "priveleged liberal elites throwing a tantrum" I need to put this out there as a Pacific Northwesterner.
First off, the standard disclaimer that the media overhypes all protests and makes things seem way more dangerous than they are.
Portland is a white city. It is an industrial city, a former steel industry city. It is in many ways the parallel of all the cities in the Midwest where the Trump effect was the strongest. and yet it was nowhere to be found here.
Now there are differences. Portland's caught the halo of the tech industry, that means a better economy, but also means skyrocketing rents, and low paying service industry jobs for the working class.
There are reasons - the Northwest is a lot less religious than many places that went Trump - so there's fewer single issue abortion voters.
Now, having grown up in the suburbs of Seattle during the WTO protests in the '90's, I am so not surprised a bunch of anarchists showed up to smash things. I knew the sort of people who did this in my highschool - went to protests just to start shit.
They weren't the liberal, idealist, white collar kids. Kids getting a good education, who are looking towards college don't do this. Kids who think the economy, the tech industry have something for them don't do this. Kids who have a future don't do this.
The kind of person who does this looks really similar to rabid young Trump supporters elsewhere: working class kids who feel left behind as the good, union jobs are all outsourced off overseas. The promise of a tech job that would require so much book learning, they don't see that as on the table. These people would be the ones resentful of being looked down upon as uneducated. Who, if they weren't living on the coast, would be resentful of the smug coastal elite. This is the sort of kid we elected class president to stick it to the administration and were overjoyed when he got fired for drunkenly pissing on the school.
Now I'm just projecting some of my own emotions here, and who knows how with it I am, so take this with a grain of salt.
Those people out East elected a rich asshole New Yorker who's just going to make the rich richer. People who complain about "flyover country" talk as if the West Coast means 'California' and might have a hazy idea that Seattle is some sort of suburb of San Francisco. Now the working class out here, they just got told that they were not Real Americans, that they were the smug, effeminate, liberal elite. These kids probably didn't vote or voted third party because their vote didn't matter. And they were right, even voting Clinton, being on the winning popular vote wouldn't have mattered. No one listens to them. No one gives a shit. So why not break all the rich people's stuff?
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Be careful out there.
Before the Trumpists try and spin this into "priveleged liberal elites throwing a tantrum" I need to put this out there as a Pacific Northwesterner.
First off, the standard disclaimer that the media overhypes all protests and makes things seem way more dangerous than they are.
Portland is a white city. It is an industrial city, a former steel industry city. It is in many ways the parallel of all the cities in the Midwest where the Trump effect was the strongest. and yet it was nowhere to be found here.
Now there are differences. Portland's caught the halo of the tech industry, that means a better economy, but also means skyrocketing rents, and low paying service industry jobs for the working class.
There are reasons - the Northwest is a lot less religious than many places that went Trump - so there's fewer single issue abortion voters.
Now, having grown up in the suburbs of Seattle during the WTO protests in the '90's, I am so not surprised a bunch of anarchists showed up to smash things. I knew the sort of people who did this in my highschool - went to protests just to start shit.
They weren't the liberal, idealist, white collar kids. Kids getting a good education, who are looking towards college don't do this. Kids who think the economy, the tech industry have something for them don't do this. Kids who have a future don't do this.
The kind of person who does this looks really similar to rabid young Trump supporters elsewhere: working class kids who feel left behind as the good, union jobs are all outsourced off overseas. The promise of a tech job that would require so much book learning, they don't see that as on the table. These people would be the ones resentful of being looked down upon as uneducated. Who, if they weren't living on the coast, would be resentful of the smug coastal elite. This is the sort of kid we elected class president to stick it to the administration and were overjoyed when he got fired for drunkenly pissing on the school.
Now I'm just projecting some of my own emotions here, and who knows how with it I am, so take this with a grain of salt.
Those people out East elected a rich asshole New Yorker who's just going to make the rich richer. People who complain about "flyover country" talk as if the West Coast means 'California' and might have a hazy idea that Seattle is some sort of suburb of San Francisco. Now the working class out here, they just got told that they were not Real Americans, that they were the smug, effeminate, liberal elite. These kids probably didn't vote or voted third party because their vote didn't matter. And they were right, even voting Clinton, being on the winning popular vote wouldn't have mattered. No one listens to them. No one gives a shit. So why not break all the rich people's stuff?
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Someone needs to make a list of all Trump's promises and when he breaks them. He's already walking back some of his promises and needs to be held to account. The suckers that voted for him thinking he'd actually help them need to be reminded.
Done!
posted by Jalliah at 8:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
The protests seem to me like closing the barn door after the horses are gone.
Trump lost the popular vote. Most Americans didn't vote to elect a bullying, xenophobic strongman. Most Americans didn't vote to ban Muslim immigrants and deport anyone who speaks Spanish and gut the First Amendment. People are scared and angry and they SHOULD be protesting. Trump needs to be met with protests and dissent and civil disobedience. I find it really troubling that anyone would suggest people should just acquiesce to the election of an actual fascist (especially one who lost the popular vote).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
Trump lost the popular vote. Most Americans didn't vote to elect a bullying, xenophobic strongman. Most Americans didn't vote to ban Muslim immigrants and deport anyone who speaks Spanish and gut the First Amendment. People are scared and angry and they SHOULD be protesting. Trump needs to be met with protests and dissent and civil disobedience. I find it really troubling that anyone would suggest people should just acquiesce to the election of an actual fascist (especially one who lost the popular vote).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
Most of the people I've talked to don't "really" seem to believe that the wall or the deportation squads are happening, but they do seem to believe, for whatever reason, that jobs will be coming back to rural areas and the steel mills will reopen. Bring that up as much as possible.
They also really believed that he would stop business as usual and bring in fresh perspectives that aren't beholden to Washington interests, because he was an outsider. Now he's picking his cabinet not just from Republican insiders, but from the ones that were rejected by Republicans as being out of touch for various reasons... I think that's worth playing up as well.
As we learned in the primaries and the race, you just can't trust him.
posted by Mchelly at 8:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
They also really believed that he would stop business as usual and bring in fresh perspectives that aren't beholden to Washington interests, because he was an outsider. Now he's picking his cabinet not just from Republican insiders, but from the ones that were rejected by Republicans as being out of touch for various reasons... I think that's worth playing up as well.
As we learned in the primaries and the race, you just can't trust him.
posted by Mchelly at 8:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, if I'm going to write to the GOP electors, that's my pitch. He promised to smash the system that gave us free trade, globalization, falling wages, etc., and less than 24 hours after the election he's bringing back many architects of those policies to lead his administration. It was a con.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm looking into the security of private messaging systems currently in use and how much resistance they'd pose to an aggressive authoritarian mass-surveillance state imposed in the US. It looks like bad news for Apple's iMessage: the NSA/FBI could expect to get a real-time firehose of plaintext from all users as soon as Apple is legally required to provide one. (Each outgoing message is encrypted with a random key, which is in turn encrypted with the public keys of all the devices it is being sent to; Apple could add an extra public key, whose private key is held by the NSA ingestion box, without anybody who isn't analysing the app with Wireshark noticing.)
Signal might be slightly harder in practice, because it's open-source, but the creator, Open Whisper Systems is a US company, subject to US laws. Giuliani or Arpaio or whoever ends up in charge could billet a team of NSA engineers at their office, with the authority to dictate changes to code and architecture, all covered by a blanket gag order. How they'd hide it from analysis would be the tricky part, but the NSA presumably are old hands at various such tricks. They could keep two sets of books, putting up some clean-looking open-source code and shipping slightly different code to app stores (on iOS, with Bitcode enabled, checking whether it compiles to the same binary is no longer feasible). Or there could be obfuscated coding tricks that only work because of secrets the NSA know about the inner architecture of the devices running them*. Or the change could come from a complete rewrite, ostensibly a technical-debt-elimination refactoring or something, to frustrate comparison. But if sufficient force was brought to bear, OWS would have no choice but to fold or to do a LavaBit and shut down, and possibly go into exile.
* If this is the case, one extra advantage for Trump's allies is that, thanks to the Shadow Brokers, the Russian FSB would have these secrets as well, so SORM would get the ability to ingest their own troublesome dissidents' communications.
posted by acb at 9:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Signal might be slightly harder in practice, because it's open-source, but the creator, Open Whisper Systems is a US company, subject to US laws. Giuliani or Arpaio or whoever ends up in charge could billet a team of NSA engineers at their office, with the authority to dictate changes to code and architecture, all covered by a blanket gag order. How they'd hide it from analysis would be the tricky part, but the NSA presumably are old hands at various such tricks. They could keep two sets of books, putting up some clean-looking open-source code and shipping slightly different code to app stores (on iOS, with Bitcode enabled, checking whether it compiles to the same binary is no longer feasible). Or there could be obfuscated coding tricks that only work because of secrets the NSA know about the inner architecture of the devices running them*. Or the change could come from a complete rewrite, ostensibly a technical-debt-elimination refactoring or something, to frustrate comparison. But if sufficient force was brought to bear, OWS would have no choice but to fold or to do a LavaBit and shut down, and possibly go into exile.
* If this is the case, one extra advantage for Trump's allies is that, thanks to the Shadow Brokers, the Russian FSB would have these secrets as well, so SORM would get the ability to ingest their own troublesome dissidents' communications.
posted by acb at 9:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Interesting news from Maryland. CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSIONAL REPS, everyone. There's a small chance we could turn this around.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 9:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Note the 2007 date on that article.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's not to say horrible things didn't happen during those periods and that they won't now. They most certainly will. But we have to fight to get the power back as quickly as possible to mitigate it and at least history shows us it's very possible.
2010 fucked liberalism in the country for twenty years probably longer. The house is gone. Democrats need a 7 or 8 point lead in the popular vote to take back the house. The presidential race maths just went out the window for Ds as the +2 rule is giving the Rs a ~30 EV advantage now.
The Senate is quickly turning into a GOP power hold. 2018 we'll lose MT, IN, MO, ND, maybe WV, maybe FL, maybe OH. 2020 doesn't look much better with possible gains in ME, CO, maybe IA if we're into fantasy land. This isn't going to change without a tectonic shift in electoral sentiment and/or identity politics. Then we have to fight 2022 which is going to be largely a repeat of 2016. Short of a political meteor hitting and demolishing the landscape it's going to be a 50+ GOP senate for a generation.
People knew what they were getting with Trump and they just didn't care or consider things features not bugs. I don't think people will abandon right wing populism easily and I don't have hope over the next eight years. I think they will willingly insulate themselves from "their team" fucking things up and will continue vote against their self-interest and reward the GOP's intellectual dishonesty so long as black people don't get a dime from the feds, unmarried sluts are forced to carry their mistakes to term and gay people can't buy a wedding cake in their state.
Conservative forces are consolidating power to fight the demographic shift for another generation and they're being largely successful. If anyone has any realistic way forward I'd really like to know because the numbers look like shit from here.
posted by Talez at 9:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
2010 fucked liberalism in the country for twenty years probably longer. The house is gone. Democrats need a 7 or 8 point lead in the popular vote to take back the house. The presidential race maths just went out the window for Ds as the +2 rule is giving the Rs a ~30 EV advantage now.
The Senate is quickly turning into a GOP power hold. 2018 we'll lose MT, IN, MO, ND, maybe WV, maybe FL, maybe OH. 2020 doesn't look much better with possible gains in ME, CO, maybe IA if we're into fantasy land. This isn't going to change without a tectonic shift in electoral sentiment and/or identity politics. Then we have to fight 2022 which is going to be largely a repeat of 2016. Short of a political meteor hitting and demolishing the landscape it's going to be a 50+ GOP senate for a generation.
People knew what they were getting with Trump and they just didn't care or consider things features not bugs. I don't think people will abandon right wing populism easily and I don't have hope over the next eight years. I think they will willingly insulate themselves from "their team" fucking things up and will continue vote against their self-interest and reward the GOP's intellectual dishonesty so long as black people don't get a dime from the feds, unmarried sluts are forced to carry their mistakes to term and gay people can't buy a wedding cake in their state.
Conservative forces are consolidating power to fight the demographic shift for another generation and they're being largely successful. If anyone has any realistic way forward I'd really like to know because the numbers look like shit from here.
posted by Talez at 9:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I suspect a lot of the violence in Portland was from the Black Bloc assholes that show up and use any gathering as an excuse to trash shit. Or maybe it's Portland becoming Little Beirut again.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm looking into the security of private messaging systems currently in use and how much resistance they'd pose to an aggressive authoritarian mass-surveillance state
Very little I am afraid. We are dealing with a person who has promised to torture your family. God help you if you forget your passphrase.
posted by dmh at 9:06 AM on November 11, 2016
Very little I am afraid. We are dealing with a person who has promised to torture your family. God help you if you forget your passphrase.
posted by dmh at 9:06 AM on November 11, 2016
A lesson in tone deafness
But while the left tries to understand how it got sucker punched, some Democrats are still tone deaf to the populist anger that Trump used to beat them. An interview last night on NPR's All Things Considered made that plain.posted by tonycpsu at 9:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ari Shapiro spoke with Rep. Xavier Becerra, a California Democrat, and with Tamara Draut from Demos, the progressive advocacy group. Shapiro asked whether the Democratic Party was too close to Wall Street. He had to push Becerra to answer the question as Becerra hedged. The chairman of the House Democratic Caucus spent his opportunity on air not talking about helping the little guys, but bent over backwards to defend the financial sector and address its concerns: [...]
So long as Democrats in leadership spend more time talking about the concerns of the urban power structure than they do on those of rural voters who feel like "everyone's punching bag, one of society's last remaining safe comedy targets, they will find themselves in the political wilderness.
2010 fucked liberalism in the country for twenty years probably longer. The house is gone. Democrats need a 7 or 8 point lead in the popular vote to take back the house. The presidential race maths just went out the window for Ds as the +2 rule is giving the Rs a ~30 EV advantage now.
The Senate is quickly turning into a GOP power hold. 2018 we'll lose MT, IN, MO, ND, maybe WV, maybe FL, maybe OH. 2020 doesn't look much better with possible gains in ME, CO, maybe IA if we're into fantasy land. This isn't going to change without a tectonic shift in electoral sentiment and/or identity politics. Then we have to fight 2022 which is going to be largely a repeat of 2016. Short of a political meteor hitting and demolishing the landscape it's going to be a 50+ GOP senate for a generation.
As I mentioned above, pretty much all these things or similar were said in 2004 and in 2008. And look how things turned out just 2 years later in both cases. Things can change quickly albeit painfully.
posted by chris24 at 9:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Senate is quickly turning into a GOP power hold. 2018 we'll lose MT, IN, MO, ND, maybe WV, maybe FL, maybe OH. 2020 doesn't look much better with possible gains in ME, CO, maybe IA if we're into fantasy land. This isn't going to change without a tectonic shift in electoral sentiment and/or identity politics. Then we have to fight 2022 which is going to be largely a repeat of 2016. Short of a political meteor hitting and demolishing the landscape it's going to be a 50+ GOP senate for a generation.
As I mentioned above, pretty much all these things or similar were said in 2004 and in 2008. And look how things turned out just 2 years later in both cases. Things can change quickly albeit painfully.
posted by chris24 at 9:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
My mother and her husband were caught up in the Baltimore protests last night when they were on their way to the Browns-Ravens game. I know at least her husband is a Trump supporter and my mother has a third-grade teacher's tolerance for behavior and language.
I got texts of images and videos with notes about their amazement of the size of the group and how well behaved everyone was - except for the dirty language on some of the signs my mother didn't like. :) I doubt they've ever seen a protest like this except on television.
posted by charred husk at 9:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I got texts of images and videos with notes about their amazement of the size of the group and how well behaved everyone was - except for the dirty language on some of the signs my mother didn't like. :) I doubt they've ever seen a protest like this except on television.
posted by charred husk at 9:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think the likelihood of Trump following through with any judicial threat against Clinton is very close to 0. Trump and Clinton belong to the same political class-- the same social circle, really-- and there is an understanding that opening the gates to penal options can backfire when the needle swings back. For the same reason I really doubt that we will see Democratic leaders actually pushing the envelope on any of the number of legal cases Trump is currently implicated in. I would say if Trump does move forward with his campaign threat, that would be a terrifying signal that he does not expect or plan for power to be able to turn back over at any point in the foreseeable future.
posted by zokni at 9:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zokni at 9:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Very little I am afraid. We are dealing with a person who has promised to torture your family. God help you if you forget your passphrase.
That's if they specifically target you. I'm thinking more about the mass surveillance case; can they hoover up all the messages from billions of people and algorithmically search for potential subversives/assign citizens loyalty scores? If we can't stop surveillance by state actors (and we can't), we can at least hope to make it non-scalable, to the point where they can't preemptively monitor everybody.
posted by acb at 9:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's if they specifically target you. I'm thinking more about the mass surveillance case; can they hoover up all the messages from billions of people and algorithmically search for potential subversives/assign citizens loyalty scores? If we can't stop surveillance by state actors (and we can't), we can at least hope to make it non-scalable, to the point where they can't preemptively monitor everybody.
posted by acb at 9:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find it really troubling that anyone would suggest people should just acquiesce to the election of an actual fascist (especially one who lost the popular vote).
In our system, fucked as it is, the popular vote doesn't matter. He won the electoral vote. The rules may be shitty, but under the rules he won.
Most Americans didn't vote to elect a bullying, xenophobic strongman.
Most Americans didn't vote for anyone, period.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I suspect a lot of the violence in Portland was from the Black Bloc assholes that show up and use any gathering as an excuse to trash shit. Or maybe it's Portland becoming Little Beirut again.
The point of my rather meandering thoughts was that those Black Bloc assholes - or at least the ones I knew - came from the same demographic that's credited for Trump's surprise win. So when anyone tries to paint this as "coastal elites misbehaving," don't believe them.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The point of my rather meandering thoughts was that those Black Bloc assholes - or at least the ones I knew - came from the same demographic that's credited for Trump's surprise win. So when anyone tries to paint this as "coastal elites misbehaving," don't believe them.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
As I mentioned above, pretty much all these things or similar were said in 2004 and in 2008. And look how things turned out just 2 years later in both cases. Things can change quickly albeit painfully.
I honestly hope you're right. I look at the identity politics and the segment of the electorate that will more than likely accept "it's Obama's fault" for Republicans screwing the pooch and fall into a pit of despair.
posted by Talez at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I honestly hope you're right. I look at the identity politics and the segment of the electorate that will more than likely accept "it's Obama's fault" for Republicans screwing the pooch and fall into a pit of despair.
posted by Talez at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
zombie FDR couldn't win Congress for the Democrats as things stand.
Then why are we bothering?
Listen, it looks like it will be Ellison and I wish him the best - truly. We all need him to excel in the role. Maybe it will be easier from him coming from a true blue state but it's still a shame we'll lose his voice on those committees.
the populist anger that Trump used to beat them.
Is "populist anger" a euphemism for "white supremacy"? Because that's how Trump won. The white supremacy that stripped the VRA and the white supremacy he promised the overwhelming number of white people who voted for him.
posted by asteria at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Then why are we bothering?
Listen, it looks like it will be Ellison and I wish him the best - truly. We all need him to excel in the role. Maybe it will be easier from him coming from a true blue state but it's still a shame we'll lose his voice on those committees.
the populist anger that Trump used to beat them.
Is "populist anger" a euphemism for "white supremacy"? Because that's how Trump won. The white supremacy that stripped the VRA and the white supremacy he promised the overwhelming number of white people who voted for him.
posted by asteria at 9:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
'The thing that is very significant is Trump's hand position,' [...] 'My read is that he has learned something he didn't know before. It's a tentative hand position.'
Probably something to do with that alien brain-monster they've got buried underground in a lead-lined pit in the middle of that green space at the center of the Pentagon. The one that has final veto on all of their initiatives.
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Probably something to do with that alien brain-monster they've got buried underground in a lead-lined pit in the middle of that green space at the center of the Pentagon. The one that has final veto on all of their initiatives.
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So long as Democrats in leadership spend more time talking about the concerns of the urban power structure
How is a wealthy NYC real estate developer not "the urban power structure"? I'd really like to see fewer supposedly incisive comments like this. Trump supporters rated income inequality very low on their list of "most important problems facing the country"; they rated immigration at the top. Trump won because of racism and xenophobia, not "Democrats' ties to Wall Street".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
How is a wealthy NYC real estate developer not "the urban power structure"? I'd really like to see fewer supposedly incisive comments like this. Trump supporters rated income inequality very low on their list of "most important problems facing the country"; they rated immigration at the top. Trump won because of racism and xenophobia, not "Democrats' ties to Wall Street".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
They publicly denounced him. Now NeverTrumpers want jobs in his White House.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 9:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Washington Post. He was sued by the Attorney General of Minnesota twice for campaign finance violations and was repeatedly fined by the Minnesota Board of Elections for failing to turn in paperwork or respond to notices to file amendments to disclosures. I would appreciate it if you would assume that I am posting in good faith and not repeating Rush Limbaugh talking points.
Sorry, I just thought it was weird that the one thing you know about someone you said you otherwise know nothing about is something framed highly negatively and obscure enough that I still can't find any info on it despite you having mentioned the source by name. I didn't mean to imply that you were posting in poor faith-- good-faith posters can be misinformed by slanted info from bad media.
posted by zokni at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2016
Sorry, I just thought it was weird that the one thing you know about someone you said you otherwise know nothing about is something framed highly negatively and obscure enough that I still can't find any info on it despite you having mentioned the source by name. I didn't mean to imply that you were posting in poor faith-- good-faith posters can be misinformed by slanted info from bad media.
posted by zokni at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2016
Trump won because of racism and xenophobia, not "Democrats' ties to Wall Street".
Why can it not be both? The fact that Trump's wealthy and urban and elite doesn't mean that's what his voters in the rust belt responded to. They responded to his rhetoric. At the same time, it's hard to say that Trump isn't the man of the people he claims to be when the day after the election, one of your reps from the bluest of blue states is more concerned with defending Wall Street than making a case for economic redistribution.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Why can it not be both? The fact that Trump's wealthy and urban and elite doesn't mean that's what his voters in the rust belt responded to. They responded to his rhetoric. At the same time, it's hard to say that Trump isn't the man of the people he claims to be when the day after the election, one of your reps from the bluest of blue states is more concerned with defending Wall Street than making a case for economic redistribution.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
If we can't stop surveillance by state actors (and we can't), we can at least hope to make it non-scalable, to the point where they can't preemptively monitor everybody.
Yeah, I'm with you. Just wanted to point out the obvious. More broadly -- but that's very personal -- I wanted to push back a little against the politics of subterfuge. I don't like what it does to people -- what it has done to Assange and Appelbaum and Snowden.
posted by dmh at 9:16 AM on November 11, 2016
Yeah, I'm with you. Just wanted to point out the obvious. More broadly -- but that's very personal -- I wanted to push back a little against the politics of subterfuge. I don't like what it does to people -- what it has done to Assange and Appelbaum and Snowden.
posted by dmh at 9:16 AM on November 11, 2016
In our system, fucked as it is, the popular vote doesn't matter. He won the electoral vote. The rules may be shitty, but under the rules he won.
I think the important words are 'literal fascist'. The popular vote just means that more Americans voted against the fascist which is one good thing.
Historically, unfortunately, fascists have been installed by election. Not sure why that matters when it comes to protesting it. I get the whole civil democratic process and all. Important for stability. But there are times in history where those things have broken down and it's not the same.
Pretty sure this is one of those times.
posted by Jalliah at 9:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the important words are 'literal fascist'. The popular vote just means that more Americans voted against the fascist which is one good thing.
Historically, unfortunately, fascists have been installed by election. Not sure why that matters when it comes to protesting it. I get the whole civil democratic process and all. Important for stability. But there are times in history where those things have broken down and it's not the same.
Pretty sure this is one of those times.
posted by Jalliah at 9:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
They publicly denounced him. Now NeverTrumpers want jobs in his White House.
GOOD.
Better them than the lickspittles that are currently in Trump's retinue.
Corb, how about it?
posted by ocschwar at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
GOOD.
Better them than the lickspittles that are currently in Trump's retinue.
Corb, how about it?
posted by ocschwar at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
EDUCATED WHITES VOTED FOR TRUMP
Millions of us did not. 45% of white college graduates voted for Clinton.
posted by straight at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Millions of us did not. 45% of white college graduates voted for Clinton.
posted by straight at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I can't believe that people think protests shouldn't happen. Protests are necessary, and its strange to assume the protestors didn't vote for Clinton. When I see kids pouring out of high schools to protest they are protesting the fact that their future just got fucked because of white resentment. Some people don't have a voice in our election, or not an equal voice. Protesting makes people pay attention.
When LGBTQ youths have already killed themselves in despair, we need people to know this is not ok, that there are people who will pour into the streets because their lives matter. People were already afraid of Trump supporters during the election, and created secret groups. My family was afraid to put up signs or show public support for Clinton, and now the people we were afraid of just won. We can't let the world end in a whimper.
posted by airish at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
When LGBTQ youths have already killed themselves in despair, we need people to know this is not ok, that there are people who will pour into the streets because their lives matter. People were already afraid of Trump supporters during the election, and created secret groups. My family was afraid to put up signs or show public support for Clinton, and now the people we were afraid of just won. We can't let the world end in a whimper.
posted by airish at 9:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
I don't know why it can't be both things - Hillary Clinton lost because of misogyny, Bernie Sanders was a stronger candidate. The myth of the Bernie Bro's needs to stop already (anecdotal, but the most vocal "bros" in my world are women and POC, happy to introduce you if it helps you dismantle the myth).
We're going to need you to come over and help push the Democratic party out of its establishment. We're going to need white people to reach out and infiltrate the ugliness and work on the process of de-radicalizing white America.
There is a lot of work to be done, but the left doesn't need to eat itself right now, no thanks metafilter.
posted by iamck at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
We're going to need you to come over and help push the Democratic party out of its establishment. We're going to need white people to reach out and infiltrate the ugliness and work on the process of de-radicalizing white America.
There is a lot of work to be done, but the left doesn't need to eat itself right now, no thanks metafilter.
posted by iamck at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Fixed it for you.
posted by ocschwar at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Corb, how about it?
Just a reminder that corb should not be expected to singularly take on the burden of all ethical republicans.
posted by mochapickle at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
Just a reminder that corb should not be expected to singularly take on the burden of all ethical republicans.
posted by mochapickle at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
"Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"
Are we sure Trump isn't the spawn of Gul Dukat and Allan Partridge?
posted by juiceCake at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are we sure Trump isn't the spawn of Gul Dukat and Allan Partridge?
posted by juiceCake at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Corb, how about it?
I'm pretty sure those of us who actually put our names out as part of the revolution aren't getting any job offers, so it's unlikely to come up. But if I was, I would take it, and I encourage all NeverTrumpers to take those jobs, as a way to potentially mitigate in even the smallest way the horrors we could face with this Presidency.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
I'm pretty sure those of us who actually put our names out as part of the revolution aren't getting any job offers, so it's unlikely to come up. But if I was, I would take it, and I encourage all NeverTrumpers to take those jobs, as a way to potentially mitigate in even the smallest way the horrors we could face with this Presidency.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
What I think people are maybe not getting is that the protests are largely carrying messages of solidarity with the groups that are being attacked the most right now. And that's their purpose - to show that Trump might have won, but he does not have a mandate, and to send a message that there are going to be people who are not going to bend over and let him do whatever he wants to damage our familes, our homes, and our communities. We will fight.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's not at all clear that Sanders was the stronger candidate. He would have kept some or all of Obama's rust belt "white working class" voters, but he would have likely lost among many other demographics in those same states. Nobody knows how he would have been attacked by the GOP and the Trump campaign -- his liabilities were different, but not necessarily less problematic.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Trump won because of racism and xenophobia, not "Democrats' ties to Wall Street".
It's surely both, if you listen to what he said. There have been white supremacists before who didn't get into Trump's position despite walking around saying 'hi everyone, I am a racist, join me.' As Michael Moore mentioned, "When Trump stood in the shadow of a Ford Motor factory during the Michigan primary, he threatened the corporation that if they did indeed go ahead with their planned closure of that factory and move it to Mexico, he would slap a 35% tariff on any Mexican-built cars shipped back to the United States. It was sweet, sweet music to the ears of the working class of Michigan."
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's surely both, if you listen to what he said. There have been white supremacists before who didn't get into Trump's position despite walking around saying 'hi everyone, I am a racist, join me.' As Michael Moore mentioned, "When Trump stood in the shadow of a Ford Motor factory during the Michigan primary, he threatened the corporation that if they did indeed go ahead with their planned closure of that factory and move it to Mexico, he would slap a 35% tariff on any Mexican-built cars shipped back to the United States. It was sweet, sweet music to the ears of the working class of Michigan."
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Corb, how about it?
WT actual F? You're aware of the groups Trump is targeting for abuse and the way he treats women he works with, right?
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
WT actual F? You're aware of the groups Trump is targeting for abuse and the way he treats women he works with, right?
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's not at all clear that Sanders was the stronger candidate.
Not to relitigate this, again, but that was surely clear from the polling.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not to relitigate this, again, but that was surely clear from the polling.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Wrap: Here’s Why the Election’s End is Very Bad News for CNN, MSNBC and Politico
Steep dropoffs in viewing and traffic are probably inevitable post-electionposted by ZeusHumms at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bernie Sanders was a stronger candidate.
He lost to the person who lost the GE. No. Get over it. I was mad about Dean and Kerry in 2004 but Dean ran a weak campaign and Sanders basically ran the 2016 version of it.
And can we stop whining about Berniebros name-calling when we have real shit to deal with? And a certain segment of the Dems wonder why no one listens to them.
posted by asteria at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
He lost to the person who lost the GE. No. Get over it. I was mad about Dean and Kerry in 2004 but Dean ran a weak campaign and Sanders basically ran the 2016 version of it.
And can we stop whining about Berniebros name-calling when we have real shit to deal with? And a certain segment of the Dems wonder why no one listens to them.
posted by asteria at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I want to chime in as someone who is part of a population that is, to put it lightly, underrepresented here on MeFi: a high school dropout with no college experience, who comes from a half-white, half-Native family of high school dropouts with no college experience. We are, and have always been, 100% progressive voters. I didn't even knowingly meet a Republican until I was an adult. My grandparents took me to protest H.W. Bush when I was 8 years old. I hail from a multi-generational empire of Democrats. And the cluelessness I see on display every day, here and in other ostensibly liberal gatherings, absolutely fucking astounds me. So many otherwise "progressive" people talk about those of us without degrees as if we're pets or idiot children. I am actually mostly used to being talked to and about this way because I am a woman, but this constant radiation of rank classism from my own party makes me feel intense animosity toward people with whom I share ideology 100%. It infuriates me that the idea of liberal elitism is still dismissed so haughtily by those who are guiltiest of embodying it.
There is obviously a whole lot to say and do when it comes to battling the racism and xenophobia of the white working class, but I am super tired of watching my fellow Democrats discuss people like me in the abstract, like non-graduates are a group of irredeemable idiots for no reason other than that we aren't as book-educated as your idea of a progressive voter is expected to be. A lot of us lowly proles have been working full-time since we were teenagers -- I have 20 unbroken years in the workforce, at the ripe old age of 35 -- and know we will never have the social or financial resources a person needs to go to college, but a whole hell of a lot of us still vote Democrat, too. We might not know much about history or philosophy or whatever, but we sure as shit know how to make sure our (and your!) families are fed, clothed, and housed. Please don't write us off.
Not to relitigate this, again, but that was surely clear from the polling.
"Bernie Would've Won" Is a Useless Exercise in Victim Shaming That Needs to End Now
posted by amnesia and magnets at 9:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [128 favorites]
There is obviously a whole lot to say and do when it comes to battling the racism and xenophobia of the white working class, but I am super tired of watching my fellow Democrats discuss people like me in the abstract, like non-graduates are a group of irredeemable idiots for no reason other than that we aren't as book-educated as your idea of a progressive voter is expected to be. A lot of us lowly proles have been working full-time since we were teenagers -- I have 20 unbroken years in the workforce, at the ripe old age of 35 -- and know we will never have the social or financial resources a person needs to go to college, but a whole hell of a lot of us still vote Democrat, too. We might not know much about history or philosophy or whatever, but we sure as shit know how to make sure our (and your!) families are fed, clothed, and housed. Please don't write us off.
Not to relitigate this, again, but that was surely clear from the polling.
"Bernie Would've Won" Is a Useless Exercise in Victim Shaming That Needs to End Now
posted by amnesia and magnets at 9:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [128 favorites]
ethical republicans
ah, for the halcyon days when the greedy bigots playing with the lives of our family and friends knew how to speak softly and act polite
posted by zokni at 9:26 AM on November 11, 2016
ah, for the halcyon days when the greedy bigots playing with the lives of our family and friends knew how to speak softly and act polite
posted by zokni at 9:26 AM on November 11, 2016
Not to relitigate this, again, but that was surely clear from the polling.
Would that be the same polling that indicated a decisive Clinton win?
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Bernie Sanders was a stronger candidate
Not necessarily. He did surprisingly well among Democratic primary voters, but I wouldn't underestimate the RNC capacity to vilify anyone (the dogwhistles to evangelicals about his being Jewish, and half the country thinking socialism is evil) as well as the media's complicity in uncritically passing along these kind of shitty messages.
posted by aught at 9:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not necessarily. He did surprisingly well among Democratic primary voters, but I wouldn't underestimate the RNC capacity to vilify anyone (the dogwhistles to evangelicals about his being Jewish, and half the country thinking socialism is evil) as well as the media's complicity in uncritically passing along these kind of shitty messages.
posted by aught at 9:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
but the left doesn't need to eat itself right now, no thanks metafilter.
Insisting that bernie was the stronger candidate is the first course of that particular meal. Knock it off.
posted by mochapickle at 9:28 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Insisting that bernie was the stronger candidate is the first course of that particular meal. Knock it off.
posted by mochapickle at 9:28 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
amnesia and magnets: Thanks for bringing that perspective.
posted by zachlipton at 9:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 9:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie was never subjected to the attacks and scrutiny of the general election. A Northeastern Jewish socialist would have been savaged by Trump's white nationalist campaign.
posted by Mavri at 9:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 9:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
The Senate is quickly turning into a GOP power hold. 2018 we'll lose MT, IN, MO, ND, maybe WV, maybe FL, maybe OH. 2020 doesn't look much better with possible gains in ME, CO, maybe IA if we're into fantasy land. This isn't going to change without a tectonic shift in electoral sentiment and/or identity politics.
[tl;dr -- tectonic shifts are already happening, Trump voters are still going to be unhappy in two and four years but the GOP will be the bums to throw out]
OTOH, some forms of tectonic shift are likely and others are baked-in already.
If the Trump administration is the incompetent clusterfuck it looks to be, things will not get any better under normal times and whenever the next recession hits, probably in the next couple of years, it's going to be sharper than usual (though hopefully not 2008 over again). Two and four years from now, at best the mills still won't be open, marriage equality will still be a thing, they will still have to hear "para espanol oprima el uno" when they call their bank, and the America they see on tv will still be "our" multicultural, gay-friendly, broadly feminist-relatively-friendly America. Finn will still be black and when they turn on the tv or go to the movies, conservative white people with negative attitudes about LGBT people and racial minorities are still going to be portrayed as problems, as ignorant, as bad people instead of as normative. Any economic downturn will hit the Trumpy areas much harder than it hits metro areas. These folks are still not going to be happy in two and four years and, con suerte, will be open to throwing the bums out for the fourth time since 08 or just sulk and stay home.
And other changes are just going to keep happening. The white rural areas where Trump won this time are going to keep bleeding relative population, and especially younger people seeking opportunity, to metro areas. Old white people are going to keep dying out of the electorate and be replaced by much browner young people. Probably, the partial reversal of the black diaspora will continue. By 2020 and with work, Democrats can stand a good chance at winning Arizona and Georgia, and of retaking Florida and North Carolina. By 2024, PA, MI, WI will have lost electoral votes in favor of CO, AZ, GA, CA, FL, NC. But also TX. All of which will be less anglo, and in the case of NC less natively southern among anglos, than they were in 2020.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
[tl;dr -- tectonic shifts are already happening, Trump voters are still going to be unhappy in two and four years but the GOP will be the bums to throw out]
OTOH, some forms of tectonic shift are likely and others are baked-in already.
If the Trump administration is the incompetent clusterfuck it looks to be, things will not get any better under normal times and whenever the next recession hits, probably in the next couple of years, it's going to be sharper than usual (though hopefully not 2008 over again). Two and four years from now, at best the mills still won't be open, marriage equality will still be a thing, they will still have to hear "para espanol oprima el uno" when they call their bank, and the America they see on tv will still be "our" multicultural, gay-friendly, broadly feminist-relatively-friendly America. Finn will still be black and when they turn on the tv or go to the movies, conservative white people with negative attitudes about LGBT people and racial minorities are still going to be portrayed as problems, as ignorant, as bad people instead of as normative. Any economic downturn will hit the Trumpy areas much harder than it hits metro areas. These folks are still not going to be happy in two and four years and, con suerte, will be open to throwing the bums out for the fourth time since 08 or just sulk and stay home.
And other changes are just going to keep happening. The white rural areas where Trump won this time are going to keep bleeding relative population, and especially younger people seeking opportunity, to metro areas. Old white people are going to keep dying out of the electorate and be replaced by much browner young people. Probably, the partial reversal of the black diaspora will continue. By 2020 and with work, Democrats can stand a good chance at winning Arizona and Georgia, and of retaking Florida and North Carolina. By 2024, PA, MI, WI will have lost electoral votes in favor of CO, AZ, GA, CA, FL, NC. But also TX. All of which will be less anglo, and in the case of NC less natively southern among anglos, than they were in 2020.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
A Christian response to all of the hate incidence that electing Trump has unleashed.
White Christians Who Voted for Donald Trump: Fix This. Now.
This is the personal Hell we’ve unleashed upon our people this week.
And if you’re a white Christian and you voted for Donald Trump: You need to fix this. Now.
You comprise the lion’s share of Trump’s elevation to the highest office of our country.
You knew exactly who this man was while you held your noses and covered your eyes and endorsed him anyway.
You are fully responsible for the flood of personal sewage now engulfing children and adults of color, those in the LGBTQ community, those in the Muslim community.
And you, white Christian, better get you spiritual shIt together and figure out how you’re going make this right.
Let’s be clear about something, brethren:
This is not the time to appeal to minorities and marginalized communities to “come together in unity” with white people right now. That was Hillary Clinton’s message, and even though she had the track record and the experience and the wherewithal to make it happen—you passed on it. Instead you chose the guy who’s entire resume is about supremacy and privilege, whose entire campaign was about the fear of the other (the other in this case, being anyone not white, straight, and Christian). You chose the guy endorsed by the KKK. You did.
You need to understand this.
Oppressed people aren’t obliged to make nice with their oppressors.
The bullied don’t owe anything to the bullies.
Victims don’t have to make their assailants feel better.
Young children of color aren’t responsible to educate racist children—or their parents.
White Christians and the white Church, especially if you voted for Donald Trump: this is all on you.
------
Now you can dismiss these stories or diminish their collateral damage or accuse the victims of exaggeration. You can claim that things will die down once these people “get this out of their systems”.
You can turn away and logout and retreat into the cloistered security of your white Christian bubble of privilege.
Or, you can step out into the school hallways and bus stops and coffee shops and Twitter feeds and bring the bold, loving, redemptive presence of Jesus you’re always claiming you want to be in the world. You can actually step into Hell and bring the freakin’ love of God.
At times like these, Christians like to smile sweetly and say, “God is in control.”
No. God is not in control.
God didn’t vote for Donald Trump, you did.
Stop passing the buck to God.
God isn’t defacing prayer rooms.
God isn’t taunting gay teenagers.
God is not bullying kids on buses.
God isn’t threatening Muslim families.
White Christians are.
You are in control of this. You have pulpits and pews and a voice and influence and social media, so get to work.
posted by Jalliah at 9:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [53 favorites]
Bernie was never subjected to the attacks and scrutiny of the general election
Nor the same amount of opposition research and attack ads. No poll taken during or after the election can really tell us how people would have ultimately voted if Bernie had won the Democratic nomination.
posted by beau jackson at 9:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Nor the same amount of opposition research and attack ads. No poll taken during or after the election can really tell us how people would have ultimately voted if Bernie had won the Democratic nomination.
posted by beau jackson at 9:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The left doesn't need to eat itself, but the left and the Democratic party need to have a frank conversation about why we fucked up so badly this election cycle and adapt our tactics to win in 2018. All assumptions about what would and would not happen in 2018 and 2020 are now off the table. That includes the pessimistic ones. The Republican party is ascendant right now, but they are also saddled with the least popular President elect in history who lost the popular vote by a historic margin. And he hasn't even started fucking up. That's our leverage. But we MUST learn how to exploit it, and we must stick together. And we need to do that now.
posted by vibrotronica at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by vibrotronica at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
No poll taken during or after the election can really tell us how people would have ultimately voted if Bernie had won the Democratic nomination.
Yes, agreed. I think it's likely he would be the president-elect right now, but we don't know, and it's not worth the fight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, agreed. I think it's likely he would be the president-elect right now, but we don't know, and it's not worth the fight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Following up on the Portland "riots" from last night: the protest organizers have set up a fund to repair the damages.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bernie was never subjected to the attacks and scrutiny of the general election. A Northeastern Jewish socialist would have been savaged by Trump's white nationalist campaign.
Except all of Trump supporters are not white nationalists. It's easier to write them off that way, and tempting to view them as racist caricatures, but it's not realistic or helpful. Again, the whole reason to have this conversation is not to rub noses in it, but plan a progressive agenda.
We need to move forward from this and pick up the pieces. The message that resounded with Sanders supporters was a populist message, a "fuck-the-establishment" message, and that message was the same that resonated and elected your soon to be President.
The country apparently doesn't want an establishment candidate. That's really all we need to take away from this.
posted by iamck at 9:37 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Except all of Trump supporters are not white nationalists. It's easier to write them off that way, and tempting to view them as racist caricatures, but it's not realistic or helpful. Again, the whole reason to have this conversation is not to rub noses in it, but plan a progressive agenda.
We need to move forward from this and pick up the pieces. The message that resounded with Sanders supporters was a populist message, a "fuck-the-establishment" message, and that message was the same that resonated and elected your soon to be President.
The country apparently doesn't want an establishment candidate. That's really all we need to take away from this.
posted by iamck at 9:37 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Never forget that Trump's last campaign ad was literally a paraphrase of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
posted by muddgirl at 9:38 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:38 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
The country apparently doesn't want an establishment candidate. That's really all we need to take away from this.
The country voted for Clinton.
posted by zutalors! at 9:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [39 favorites]
that message was the same that resonated and elected your soon to be President.
No, it wasn't. The message that resonated with Trump voters was "ban Muslims" and "build a wall" and "deportation patrols".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
No, it wasn't. The message that resonated with Trump voters was "ban Muslims" and "build a wall" and "deportation patrols".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's easier to write them off that way, and tempting to view them as racist caricatures, but it's not realistic or helpful.
Please stop dictating this to us. Yes they were. They were racists, they were Islamophobes. That was the campaign. It's half the country, and the sooner we wake up to this fact, the better we will be able to address it, and the better we will be able to come up with tactics that actually address the core problem -- racism, etc. -- than what we really, really wish the problem was, namely, anything else.
I'm sorry people don't like the realization that half of America is racist. But you know something, people of color have been telling us this for a long time, and maybe it is time we listened.
posted by maxsparber at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
Please stop dictating this to us. Yes they were. They were racists, they were Islamophobes. That was the campaign. It's half the country, and the sooner we wake up to this fact, the better we will be able to address it, and the better we will be able to come up with tactics that actually address the core problem -- racism, etc. -- than what we really, really wish the problem was, namely, anything else.
I'm sorry people don't like the realization that half of America is racist. But you know something, people of color have been telling us this for a long time, and maybe it is time we listened.
posted by maxsparber at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
The country voted for Clinton.
The spirit of the country was light years from the energy of the Obama's election, so please. The country reluctantly voted for Clinton.
posted by iamck at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The spirit of the country was light years from the energy of the Obama's election, so please. The country reluctantly voted for Clinton.
posted by iamck at 9:41 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The thing that I keep coming back to is how much of my attention towards this election was apparently spent in an echo chamber.
A Northeastern Jewish socialist would have been savaged by Trump's white nationalist campaign.
Thing is, without Bernie having a "Bill gets on the airplane" moment, the attacks would have had much less to hang on.
But this is all dumb and wanky counterfactualism. Just like I refuse to take up the "blood in the streets" rhetoric against Trump, I'm not going to get mired in what ifs. The Dems need to clean house, and I'm not certain that the party will survive. Which is a turnabout from my sense of the aftereffects of this election, where I was certain (see "echo chamber" above) that the Republican Party would be so much dust by Memorial Day.
posted by rhizome at 9:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
A Northeastern Jewish socialist would have been savaged by Trump's white nationalist campaign.
Thing is, without Bernie having a "Bill gets on the airplane" moment, the attacks would have had much less to hang on.
But this is all dumb and wanky counterfactualism. Just like I refuse to take up the "blood in the streets" rhetoric against Trump, I'm not going to get mired in what ifs. The Dems need to clean house, and I'm not certain that the party will survive. Which is a turnabout from my sense of the aftereffects of this election, where I was certain (see "echo chamber" above) that the Republican Party would be so much dust by Memorial Day.
posted by rhizome at 9:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie vs. Trump would have been an entirely different campaign with different battle lines, less outreach to minority groups, the possibility of a "NeverBernie" contingent arising among the corporatist Dems who've never been on board with self-proclaimed socialism (certainly there'd be less buy-in from them), and the GOP launching a full anti-Semitic/Red Scare combo at the Sanders campaign that Clinton would never have used in a million years. No pre-convention polling could tell us how that would have gone, even if we hadn't just seen that polling was worthless this year. As counterfactuals go this is not a useful one. Too many moving pieces would be different.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
The reason I still feel in shock right now, is that the anti-establishment message actually seems like bullshit, at least from the Trump voters. The two big surprise turnouts seem to be evangelics with a political mission to stack the supreme court and rural white folk sin the rust belt who wanted revenge for being the butt of jokes. The noise about being anti-establishment, at least on the Republican side, was all bullshit.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Republican Party won't survive this either, not as we know it. The party of the plutocracy is now the party of white nationalism, and that's a very different proposition.
posted by maxsparber at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maxsparber at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
We need to move forward from this and pick up the pieces. The message that resounded with Sanders supporters was a populist message, a "fuck-the-establishment" message, and that message was the same that resonated and elected your soon to be President.
Oh, hell no. There was a lot to criticize about the way Sanders framed his populism, but at no point did he engage in the kind of systematic attempt to appeal to racism and xenophobia that Trump did. They're not even remotely the same message.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oh, hell no. There was a lot to criticize about the way Sanders framed his populism, but at no point did he engage in the kind of systematic attempt to appeal to racism and xenophobia that Trump did. They're not even remotely the same message.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
My vote for Clinton was the most enthusiastic one I have ever made.
Happy to introduce myself if it helps dismantle the myth.
posted by mochapickle at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [61 favorites]
Happy to introduce myself if it helps dismantle the myth.
posted by mochapickle at 9:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [61 favorites]
I was likewise thrilled to vote for Clinton. If she runs again, I'll vote for her again.
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on November 11, 2016 [43 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 9:44 AM on November 11, 2016 [43 favorites]
My vote for Clinton was the most enthusiastic one I have ever made.
Happy to introduce myself if it helps dismantle the myth
Yeah. I'm really sick of people trying to shove the "Cool to hate Clinton" stuff down my throat. She won the popular vote. On my ballot, there was no range of affection I was supposed to show.
posted by zutalors! at 9:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
Relitigating the primary is useless. But the Clinton campaign could have stitched up the party more after they won. If Sanders or Warren wouldn't have been VP, they could have tapped one of his supporters. Keith Ellison instead of Kaine is sounding better and better, besides the demographics he represents, Ellison sounds like a real economic progressive who could speak to the issues Midwesterners cared about.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The party of the plutocracy is now the party of white nationalism, and that's a very different proposition.
The president is a billionaire con man who looks set to select his wealthy friends for many cabinet posts. I think this is an addition, not a substitution.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The president is a billionaire con man who looks set to select his wealthy friends for many cabinet posts. I think this is an addition, not a substitution.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was likewise thrilled to vote for Clinton. If she runs again, I'll vote for her again
I know it's unrealistic but I'd love her to be governor of New York or something. It would in all honesty affect my personal life more.
posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
A Trump/Sanders campaign would have been $100M worth of ads showing empty shelves and people lined up for food in Venezuela. I would have loved to see it, but those ads would be devastating.
Of course, I would have thought that all the ads against Trump were devastating, so it's impossible to actually say what would have happened.
posted by zachlipton at 9:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course, I would have thought that all the ads against Trump were devastating, so it's impossible to actually say what would have happened.
posted by zachlipton at 9:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The president is a billionaire con man who looks set to select his wealthy friends for many cabinet posts. I think this is an addition, not a substitution.
Oh sure. But he ran on a platform of white nationalism, not plutocracy. That's the base now, that's who must be appeased. I'm sure he will siphon plenty of money into his pockets in the process, but that's not what his base cares about.
posted by maxsparber at 9:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh sure. But he ran on a platform of white nationalism, not plutocracy. That's the base now, that's who must be appeased. I'm sure he will siphon plenty of money into his pockets in the process, but that's not what his base cares about.
posted by maxsparber at 9:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Saudi student is beaten, killed in Wisconsin
No proof that it was part of this run of hate attacks that's happening across the country and Trump inspired. I think he deserves to be recognized though because it's (at least in my mind) likely connected.
Hussain Saeed Alnahdi
.
posted by Jalliah at 9:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
Please stop dictating this to us. Yes they were. They were racists, they were Islamophobes.
No! Many of them do not feel this way, they simply have the privilege that they can overlook the more hateful things that he has said about marginalized groups - because of their privilege and because of their lives.
Do not mistake their ignorance for hate. If these people were all truly deplorable, than there isn't anything to do but to secede. But I'm not going with you down this road. I will not go down a road that transforms my enemy into a caricature who is beyond hope.
The Trump voters need to be talked to, more than ever. These people are on the verge of radicalization. We need to infiltrate them and teach them. I refuse to write of even 25% of the country as hopeless.
posted by iamck at 9:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
No! Many of them do not feel this way, they simply have the privilege that they can overlook the more hateful things that he has said about marginalized groups - because of their privilege and because of their lives.
Do not mistake their ignorance for hate. If these people were all truly deplorable, than there isn't anything to do but to secede. But I'm not going with you down this road. I will not go down a road that transforms my enemy into a caricature who is beyond hope.
The Trump voters need to be talked to, more than ever. These people are on the verge of radicalization. We need to infiltrate them and teach them. I refuse to write of even 25% of the country as hopeless.
posted by iamck at 9:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Many of them do not feel this way, they simply have the privilege that they can overlook the more hateful things that he has said about marginalized groups - because of their privilege and because of their lives.
I don't think you understand. That is racism. What you just described -- not knowing about the other, not caring, because of privilege, and voting away the rights of others? It's racism.
posted by maxsparber at 9:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [51 favorites]
I don't think you understand. That is racism. What you just described -- not knowing about the other, not caring, because of privilege, and voting away the rights of others? It's racism.
posted by maxsparber at 9:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [51 favorites]
I don't think you understand. That is racism. What you just described -- not knowing about the other, not caring, because of privilege, and voting away the rights of others? It's racism.
Not them it isn't. We have a different working definition. Do you think Trump supporters are working with vocabulary like "power differential" and "privilege"?
posted by iamck at 9:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not them it isn't. We have a different working definition. Do you think Trump supporters are working with vocabulary like "power differential" and "privilege"?
posted by iamck at 9:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
But he ran on a platform of white nationalism, not plutocracy
Previous Republicans ran on culture-war platforms (“Christian Family Values”, “Real America”, &c.). While there may be an assumption that Real Americans are temporarily embarrassed Scrooge McDucks who want lower taxes, goddammit, it's not front and centre to the package, when there are gays, dangerous inner-city black people, “liberal elites” and such to demonise. Trump just made the White Nationalism that has been there since Nixon's Southern Strategy more explicit.
posted by acb at 9:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Previous Republicans ran on culture-war platforms (“Christian Family Values”, “Real America”, &c.). While there may be an assumption that Real Americans are temporarily embarrassed Scrooge McDucks who want lower taxes, goddammit, it's not front and centre to the package, when there are gays, dangerous inner-city black people, “liberal elites” and such to demonise. Trump just made the White Nationalism that has been there since Nixon's Southern Strategy more explicit.
posted by acb at 9:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's the unfortunate truth back: racists are still Americans. Racists are still voters. You can't shame them away. They either have to be shown a better way, or their votes- and e-votes- replaced by non-racists. Fine, call them out for racism. Then what? You expect them to apologize, to see the error of their ways, and roll over? That's now how it works anymore. Maybe that's not how it ever worked.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
I was listening to my Radio Free Europe - Serbia edition podcast this morning, the first time since the election I have been able to stomach any kind of news. They reported on how ecstatic Serbia's government is about the Trump victory, a completely unsurprising development. Then I stumbled across this series of tweets which articulately lays out an inchoate thought that had begun to occur to me as well (Milosevic as proto-Trump)
posted by Aubergine at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Aubergine at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not them it isn't. We have a different working definition. Do you think Trump supporters are working with vocabulary like "power differential" and "privilege"?
They don't have to know they're being racist to be racist. Racism is outcomes, not intent.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
They don't have to know they're being racist to be racist. Racism is outcomes, not intent.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Not them it isn't.
I don't care. I don't care that they have somehow excused their racism by defining it as something else. I am here to solve actual problems, and the actual, real, life-destroying problem we are faced with right now is that half the country is racist, whether they want to think so or not.
posted by maxsparber at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't care. I don't care that they have somehow excused their racism by defining it as something else. I am here to solve actual problems, and the actual, real, life-destroying problem we are faced with right now is that half the country is racist, whether they want to think so or not.
posted by maxsparber at 9:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Many of them do not feel this way, they simply have the privilege that they can overlook the more hateful things that he has said about marginalized groups - because of their privilege and because of their lives.
As Desmond Tutu said: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
They're racists. Maybe they don't THINK they are, but they voted for Trump. Anyone who votes for an openly bigoted shitbag who says "Mexicans are rapists", "blacks all live in inner cities", "Muslims are all terrorists" is themselves a racist, or they don't mind it since it's not directed at them (which is the same thing, in the end).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:55 AM on November 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
As Desmond Tutu said: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
They're racists. Maybe they don't THINK they are, but they voted for Trump. Anyone who votes for an openly bigoted shitbag who says "Mexicans are rapists", "blacks all live in inner cities", "Muslims are all terrorists" is themselves a racist, or they don't mind it since it's not directed at them (which is the same thing, in the end).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:55 AM on November 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
The country voted for Clinton.
It wasn't helpful with Bush/Gore and it isn't helpful here. It doesn't do anything but feed resentment, and when the margins are so thin it literally doesn't matter. I had a bet with phearlez that Trump would get under 40% of the vote, that is: whether Clinton's margin of victory would be more than 20 points. Forgive me if 0.15% doesn't trigger my "most people voted for Hillary" gland. It was a wash, and she lost. The country is just as much a Trump country as a Clinton one, when the conventional wisdom was that Trump's edge was a severe minority. I/we were wrong, badly. It simply shouldn't have been that close.
posted by rhizome at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It wasn't helpful with Bush/Gore and it isn't helpful here. It doesn't do anything but feed resentment, and when the margins are so thin it literally doesn't matter. I had a bet with phearlez that Trump would get under 40% of the vote, that is: whether Clinton's margin of victory would be more than 20 points. Forgive me if 0.15% doesn't trigger my "most people voted for Hillary" gland. It was a wash, and she lost. The country is just as much a Trump country as a Clinton one, when the conventional wisdom was that Trump's edge was a severe minority. I/we were wrong, badly. It simply shouldn't have been that close.
posted by rhizome at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I honestly don't think people like you, "allies" like you, actually have my back
They don't.
posted by zutalors! at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Fine, call them out for racism. Then what?
Then you can take the actual steps that have been proven to work in this country in addressing racism: Education that explicitly identifies what is and isn't racist and seeks to educate people away from it, laws that explicitly address institutional racism, political activism that is explicitly anti-racist.
Believe it or not, there are tools to fight racism. Placating racists in the hope that they won't get offended and stay racists out of spite is not one that works.
posted by maxsparber at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Then you can take the actual steps that have been proven to work in this country in addressing racism: Education that explicitly identifies what is and isn't racist and seeks to educate people away from it, laws that explicitly address institutional racism, political activism that is explicitly anti-racist.
Believe it or not, there are tools to fight racism. Placating racists in the hope that they won't get offended and stay racists out of spite is not one that works.
posted by maxsparber at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
They don't have to know they're being racist to be racist. Racism is outcomes, not intent.
This a billion times.
posted by Jalliah at 9:57 AM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
This a billion times.
posted by Jalliah at 9:57 AM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
The country voted for Clinton.
It wasn't helpful with Bush/Gore and it isn't helpful here.
It's easy to cut and paste and just make whatever comment you want, but the comment I was replying to was that people didn't want an establishment candidate, which the evidence does not show.
posted by zutalors! at 9:57 AM on November 11, 2016
This is fucking stupid. Trump supporters don't care if some people on Metafilter are calling them racist. We don't defeat them by coddling them, and, although I have generally fallen on this side of the argument, we don't defeat them by calling them out, either. We defeat them by fucking organizing. In the meantime, do whatever you want, but stop trying to shame me for refusing to make nicey-nice with people who would have happily had me in a camp 75 years ago.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [44 favorites]
People are still acting like Republican voters, Trump voters, and fellow travelers care if you label them racists. The word has been as overused as "communist." It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. Many of these people don't care anymore. They don't share the same values system as they do, they don't see what they're doing as racist, they think you're abusing them for being lesser educated, less in touch with the culture of the intellectual elites. Or some are proud in their bigotry as a reaction to what they perceive as political correctness.
Education that explicitly identifies what is and isn't racist and seeks to educate people away from it, laws that explicitly address institutional racism, political activism that is explicitly anti-racist.
Then let's focus on education. Let's focus on that instead of shaming. Not-shaming is not the same thing as placating. Shaming isn't effective. We need to find new and better ways to educate. I'm not afraid of offending racists. I don't think they get offended anymore. I think they just laugh it off.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Education that explicitly identifies what is and isn't racist and seeks to educate people away from it, laws that explicitly address institutional racism, political activism that is explicitly anti-racist.
Then let's focus on education. Let's focus on that instead of shaming. Not-shaming is not the same thing as placating. Shaming isn't effective. We need to find new and better ways to educate. I'm not afraid of offending racists. I don't think they get offended anymore. I think they just laugh it off.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
But it's this mindset, this refusal to understand that intent does not matter when the result occurs, this abject denialism of calling a spade a spade?
Right, so the only logical response is violence, and straight up war. You can go out and make the streets run red with the blood of the white nationalists, and I wont say a thing. But my work is not with that, I've spent the last years in my life in countries reeling from these genocides, and it's fucking terrible.
posted by iamck at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Right, so the only logical response is violence, and straight up war. You can go out and make the streets run red with the blood of the white nationalists, and I wont say a thing. But my work is not with that, I've spent the last years in my life in countries reeling from these genocides, and it's fucking terrible.
posted by iamck at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This effort to define bigotry down is no different than Trump defining an admission of sexual assault as "locker room talk", or Dick Cheney defining torture as "enhanced interrogation techniques." Bigots aren't irredeemable at all, but the same people saying "don't give up on them" are engaging in a systematic attempt to characterize their bigotry as something else, which keeps any redemption from happening. You can't fix something that nobody will acknowledge is broken.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
iamck, have you seen the people trying to "discuss" these issues with Trumpists on Facebook? It. is. a. shitshow. I'm watching something right now on a friends's wall where the r-wrod has been used multiple times to a woman with a developmentally disabled child. And when asked to please not use that term, he then gets sarcastic with his next comment saying "oh, that's r---ed, oops sorry, I mean 'developmentally disabled'." This is a grown human man. There is no understanding here. Just a delight in making people as upset as possible.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
I guess, I mean, do you think the plan is that we're just going to call people racists on Facebook and hope that makes people vote Democratic? That's not the plan.
I don't know that there is a plan, but when there is one, it starts with recognizing that we need to address the sin of racism, not ignore it. And therefore we need to use the techniques and tactics that, in the past, have proven to work in the fight against racism, and we need to develop new tactics knowing that what we're dealing with is a large population that is implicitly or explicitly racist and is voting based on that.
posted by maxsparber at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't know that there is a plan, but when there is one, it starts with recognizing that we need to address the sin of racism, not ignore it. And therefore we need to use the techniques and tactics that, in the past, have proven to work in the fight against racism, and we need to develop new tactics knowing that what we're dealing with is a large population that is implicitly or explicitly racist and is voting based on that.
posted by maxsparber at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The “Oh Shit! What Should I Do Before January?” Guide. [Google Doc]. Full of helpful, practical information on how to safeguard yourself, your family and the country before Trump comes into power.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 10:00 AM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
Some of you are actually driving out minority voices right here in this thread by insisting on this #notallTrumpsupporters stuff.
posted by zutalors! at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
mochapickle's current stages-of-grief progress:
denial ✓
anger ✓
bargaining
depression
acceptance
posted by mochapickle at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
denial ✓
anger ✓
bargaining
depression
acceptance
posted by mochapickle at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why can't we shame? Believe it or not, shaming works.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Hoooooo boy, from one NY voter to (I think?) another, please no. It's time for fresh blood.
Done!
posted by tonycpsu at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Done!
posted by tonycpsu at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Shame and shunning are social control tools from time immemorial. I'm on board with using their powers for good for once.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, do you think the plan is that we're just going to call people racists on Facebook and hope that makes people vote Democratic? That's not the plan.
A lot of times that seems to be as far as people get, at least online. Call-out culture and all that.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016
A lot of times that seems to be as far as people get, at least online. Call-out culture and all that.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016
Do not mistake their ignorance for hate. If these people were all truly deplorable, than there isn't anything to do but to secede. But I'm not going with you down this road. I will not go down a road that transforms my enemy into a caricature who is beyond hope.
Well, that's very noble, etc etc. What does it mean on the ground? What are you actually going to do with these non-hopeless enemies?
How are you going to respond to the men who have threatened me this year? When someone is actually, seriously debating whether he should assault me on the train platform, how do you plan to respond? When I post about that on the internet and call the guy a homophobe, are you going to remind me that my "enemy" isn't "hopeless"? If you find out that the guy is actually your brother in law, are you going to talk "nicely" to him about how he may think I'm a disgusting freak but that he should not actually hate and assault me?
What do you plan to do? That's what I want to know, because I am physically scared for my safety right now, based on actual things that have happened in the last nine months.
posted by Frowner at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
Well, that's very noble, etc etc. What does it mean on the ground? What are you actually going to do with these non-hopeless enemies?
How are you going to respond to the men who have threatened me this year? When someone is actually, seriously debating whether he should assault me on the train platform, how do you plan to respond? When I post about that on the internet and call the guy a homophobe, are you going to remind me that my "enemy" isn't "hopeless"? If you find out that the guy is actually your brother in law, are you going to talk "nicely" to him about how he may think I'm a disgusting freak but that he should not actually hate and assault me?
What do you plan to do? That's what I want to know, because I am physically scared for my safety right now, based on actual things that have happened in the last nine months.
posted by Frowner at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
stop trying to shame me for refusing to make nicey-nice with people who would have happily had me in a camp 75 years ago.
No way. I don't think it's your job, I think this is a job for privileged white people, white men in particular to influence other white men. They are the only ones with the privilege to move in, undetected, through the ugly realms of red state America.
posted by iamck at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
No way. I don't think it's your job, I think this is a job for privileged white people, white men in particular to influence other white men. They are the only ones with the privilege to move in, undetected, through the ugly realms of red state America.
posted by iamck at 10:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
A lot of times that seems to be as far as people get, at least online.
You don't know what people are doing offline. In my experience, people who are part of the so-called "callout culture" are also very active offline.
posted by maxsparber at 10:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
You don't know what people are doing offline. In my experience, people who are part of the so-called "callout culture" are also very active offline.
posted by maxsparber at 10:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Racism is outcomes, not intent.
As Desmond Tutu said: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
I'm going to make a whole bunch of business size cards with at least these two quotes on them and every single time that some well intentioned someone, speaks BS, they're getting one.
It's not much. But it's relatively easy.
posted by Jalliah at 10:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
As Desmond Tutu said: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
I'm going to make a whole bunch of business size cards with at least these two quotes on them and every single time that some well intentioned someone, speaks BS, they're getting one.
It's not much. But it's relatively easy.
posted by Jalliah at 10:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think this is a job for privileged white people, white men in particular to influence other white men.
White people being influenced by other white people, and only by other white people, is the PROBLEM.
posted by mochapickle at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
White people being influenced by other white people, and only by other white people, is the PROBLEM.
posted by mochapickle at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh I forgot the best part about Mr. R-Word Slingin'. His primary stated beef with liberals? Late term abortions supposedly so parents won't be inconvenienced with a disabled child (which, y'know, isn't how that works). His concern for these unborn children blatantly ends at their birth as he is viciously attacking disabled women and parents of disabled children on Facebook. Pro-life, y'all. You think his attitudes about black and brown people are any more enlightened? Opening up that can of worms is all you. I'm saving my emotional labor for the people in my community under threat, thanks.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." The passive, "racism/misogyny doesn't affect me" Trump voter did nothing to counter Trump's campaign of hate. I don't know how to come together with that.
posted by zutalors! at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And I want to add that when I meet straight people who try to "work through" their fellow straights' feelings that I am a physically loathsome semi-human who should be beaten in public, well, you all do not fill me with confidence.
I'll tell you a secret that I have learned from being white: when racist white people tell you that they "will think about" what you've said, they don't mean it. They mean they don't want to fight with you right now and they plan to go right on being racist when you're not there. I assume that when you talk to your straight buddy the harasser and assaulter, he'll tell you what you want to hear about how he "only sort of" is disgusted by gay people and then go right back to threatening us when you're not there.
posted by Frowner at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'll tell you a secret that I have learned from being white: when racist white people tell you that they "will think about" what you've said, they don't mean it. They mean they don't want to fight with you right now and they plan to go right on being racist when you're not there. I assume that when you talk to your straight buddy the harasser and assaulter, he'll tell you what you want to hear about how he "only sort of" is disgusted by gay people and then go right back to threatening us when you're not there.
posted by Frowner at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
The Obama Coalition is PoC and white liberals. Both are absolutely essential to Democratic success.
Clinton failed to appeal to white liberals but locked down the PoC vote. Sanders appealed to white liberals and failed to resonate with PoC.
Trump did not grow the Republican electorate he got the same people that always vote Republican it's just that white liberals failed to show up.
Would PoC turn out for Sanders in the GE? Unknown but it's clear that Democrats need all of their big coalition because divided we fall.
I loathe the back biting going on right now because it's clear that among some white liberals it's better to be pure than take care of disadvantaged populations. How do we take care of the PoC that feel at risk? How do we tell people that their marriage might be nullified? How do we tell young transgender individuals that their rights will be respected? How can we tell international students and their families that they will be safe in the US?
posted by vuron at 10:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Clinton failed to appeal to white liberals but locked down the PoC vote. Sanders appealed to white liberals and failed to resonate with PoC.
Trump did not grow the Republican electorate he got the same people that always vote Republican it's just that white liberals failed to show up.
Would PoC turn out for Sanders in the GE? Unknown but it's clear that Democrats need all of their big coalition because divided we fall.
I loathe the back biting going on right now because it's clear that among some white liberals it's better to be pure than take care of disadvantaged populations. How do we take care of the PoC that feel at risk? How do we tell people that their marriage might be nullified? How do we tell young transgender individuals that their rights will be respected? How can we tell international students and their families that they will be safe in the US?
posted by vuron at 10:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
We have had the "you must reserve endless patience for the people who hate you" discussion five hundred million times, like whenever men tell women that all we really need to do to win the hearts and minds of sexist douchebags is be nicer to them, to express our objections to their behavior more politely, and most importantly to never call them sexist, because that hurts their feelings, and unless we make sure their feelings are never hurt, they won't help us. For some reason, we're supposed to want to bow and scrape to "earn" help from people who only really care about themselves. Why? It's humiliating and it doesn't do any good.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 10:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [65 favorites]
posted by amnesia and magnets at 10:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [65 favorites]
What do you plan to do? That's what I want to know, because I am physically scared for my safety right now, based on actual things that have happened in the last nine months.
I'm planning on working more with the rural white voters, and trying to reach out to them, and change their minds. I'm working on a project in Eastern Oregon starting next year. Maybe I'll move to a red state. I've been working with people on the border line of Islamic fundamentalism and trying to change their mind about America, I think it's time I bring this home and work on American fundamentalists.
posted by iamck at 10:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm planning on working more with the rural white voters, and trying to reach out to them, and change their minds. I'm working on a project in Eastern Oregon starting next year. Maybe I'll move to a red state. I've been working with people on the border line of Islamic fundamentalism and trying to change their mind about America, I think it's time I bring this home and work on American fundamentalists.
posted by iamck at 10:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think we (meaning people who know any and have the willpower left to do this sort of outreach after dealing with all this other bullshit) need to work with the quiet ones, the shy ones, the ones that don't pick fights and don't speak up. The surprise Trump voters weren't the ones yelling in the streets, they were the ones who were like "oh I would never vote for someone that awful" in the polls and then, when it cam down to it, chose to feed their resentment over the good of their country and convinced themselves it was the right thing to do.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying shaming shouldn't be used, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be used because it's not nice. I'm saying that it's getting less and less effective. The alt-right is a new counter-culture, for God's sake. Somewhere along the lines anti-prejudice became (incorrectly) identified as part of the value system of the elite of this country, rather than basic common decency. That misunderstanding needs to be corrected. That's what must be broken down. In the meantime, shaming people in a way that doesn't resonate with their values system- that's what causes them to revel as deplorable. And that very well encouraged them to double-down on Trump, too.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't think you understand. That is racism. What you just described -- not knowing about the other, not caring, because of privilege, and voting away the rights of others? It's racism.
As a dark-skinned person I disagree. There is a difference between a lack of awareness and active support for the notion that some people are inferior because of their ancestry. It is a difference that I have to make in my life all the time and it is not helpful to eradicate it.
posted by dmh at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
As a dark-skinned person I disagree. There is a difference between a lack of awareness and active support for the notion that some people are inferior because of their ancestry. It is a difference that I have to make in my life all the time and it is not helpful to eradicate it.
posted by dmh at 10:09 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I've been working with people on the border line of Islamic fundamentalism and trying to change their mind about America, I think it's time I bring this home and work on American fundamentalists.How did you measure your effectiveness?
posted by Coventry at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Someone on my Facebook was saying that we need to come together and understand each other. I said, what if I ask them why they voted for Trump and they say "I just don't want people like you in this country" ? She said, "Well, you should say, what about people like me upsets you so much?"
Like, that is literally what you are asking us to deal with.
posted by zutalors! at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
Like, that is literally what you are asking us to deal with.
posted by zutalors! at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
'm saying that it's getting less and less effective.
Yes! More and better shaming!
posted by maxsparber at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes! More and better shaming!
posted by maxsparber at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
White people being influenced by other white people, and only by other white people, is the PROBLEM.
Exclusive segregated spaces of influence are a problem as well. Here in Portland, I've never even seen a Trump sign. I don't have a single friend or family that would vote for Trump. Isn't that a problem? If I'm not in contact with a single one of these people, how is any of my work reaching them?
posted by iamck at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Exclusive segregated spaces of influence are a problem as well. Here in Portland, I've never even seen a Trump sign. I don't have a single friend or family that would vote for Trump. Isn't that a problem? If I'm not in contact with a single one of these people, how is any of my work reaching them?
posted by iamck at 10:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The architect of the most racist law in modern American history has been named to Trump's team
SB1070 "papers please" law drafter coming into Trump's team.
Jesus fuck the hits just keep on coming.
posted by Talez at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
SB1070 "papers please" law drafter coming into Trump's team.
Jesus fuck the hits just keep on coming.
posted by Talez at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
The spirit of the country was light years from the energy of the Obama's election, so please. The country reluctantly voted for Clinton.
Lots of MeFites and others in early stages of grief don't wanna think about it, and I do not blame them at all, but if we're playing the anecdotes are data game, then for my part: I never did meet a single enthusiastic Clinton supporter outside of MetaFilter's usually-wonderful hivemind. Not one.
On the other hand, I had literally hundreds of conversations with different versions of settling-for-Clinton, compromising-on-Clinton, reluctantly-voting-for-Clinton, and so on. Literally every Democrat and liberal I know in the real world was lukewarm but voting/voted for her. If lack of enthusiasm for her is a crime, then I'm guilty, too, because I would usually nod along and say "Yes, she's not great, but obviously we have to vote for her." and then we would have another drink.
So we can either blame voters for being unenthusiastic, or blame the party and candidate for failing to enthuse. One of these makes more sense to me than the other, but take your pick either way, since either way, it was far from a nationwide Obama-style energy, indeed.
posted by rokusan at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Lots of MeFites and others in early stages of grief don't wanna think about it, and I do not blame them at all, but if we're playing the anecdotes are data game, then for my part: I never did meet a single enthusiastic Clinton supporter outside of MetaFilter's usually-wonderful hivemind. Not one.
On the other hand, I had literally hundreds of conversations with different versions of settling-for-Clinton, compromising-on-Clinton, reluctantly-voting-for-Clinton, and so on. Literally every Democrat and liberal I know in the real world was lukewarm but voting/voted for her. If lack of enthusiasm for her is a crime, then I'm guilty, too, because I would usually nod along and say "Yes, she's not great, but obviously we have to vote for her." and then we would have another drink.
So we can either blame voters for being unenthusiastic, or blame the party and candidate for failing to enthuse. One of these makes more sense to me than the other, but take your pick either way, since either way, it was far from a nationwide Obama-style energy, indeed.
posted by rokusan at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
There are only possible 3 reasons someone voted for trump...
1. They are an unrepentant bigoted asshole
2. They are blitheringly willfully ignorant
3. They are some combination of the first two.
posted by ian1977 at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
1. They are an unrepentant bigoted asshole
2. They are blitheringly willfully ignorant
3. They are some combination of the first two.
posted by ian1977 at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
No way. I don't think it's your job, I think this is a job for privileged white people, white men in particular to influence other white men. They are the only ones with the privilege to move in, undetected, through the ugly realms of red state America.
Okay. Then I would just add that when you suggested that qcubed was advocating genocide by saying that intent matters less than results, that was exactly the kind of hyperbole that makes POC feel that you are more interested in attacking us than in really reaching out to white Trump supporters. (He said right in his comment that he's a queer person of color, so I don't think it's that you didn't realize that. But FYI, it's not just him, there are a lot of nonwhite people on Metafilter and you cannot assume that only or primarily white people are listening.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Okay. Then I would just add that when you suggested that qcubed was advocating genocide by saying that intent matters less than results, that was exactly the kind of hyperbole that makes POC feel that you are more interested in attacking us than in really reaching out to white Trump supporters. (He said right in his comment that he's a queer person of color, so I don't think it's that you didn't realize that. But FYI, it's not just him, there are a lot of nonwhite people on Metafilter and you cannot assume that only or primarily white people are listening.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Obama Coalition is PoC and white liberals. Both are absolutely essential to Democratic success.
Clinton failed to appeal to white liberals but locked down the PoC vote. Sanders appealed to white liberals and failed to resonate with PoC.
The lifting of Voting Rights Act restrictions and vote suppression had much more of an effect (Clinton got the same proportion of the white vote that Obama did in 2012; 300K--10% of the electorate!--voters were turned away at the polls in Wisconsin alone for lacking proper ID under voter ID laws).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
Clinton failed to appeal to white liberals but locked down the PoC vote. Sanders appealed to white liberals and failed to resonate with PoC.
The lifting of Voting Rights Act restrictions and vote suppression had much more of an effect (Clinton got the same proportion of the white vote that Obama did in 2012; 300K--10% of the electorate!--voters were turned away at the polls in Wisconsin alone for lacking proper ID under voter ID laws).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
The trolls are coming from inside the house!
posted by mochapickle at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
ian1977, that's just not true, and grossly unfair to half of your fellow Americans.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
How did you measure your effectiveness?
There's no way of knowing.
Let me put it this way. In my travels, wherever there was once a Peace Corp post, people LOVE America. It doesn't matter where you are, it has amazing effects. If we have such a cultural divide, aren't these areas literal "other" countries, that could benefit from the same?
posted by iamck at 10:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's no way of knowing.
Let me put it this way. In my travels, wherever there was once a Peace Corp post, people LOVE America. It doesn't matter where you are, it has amazing effects. If we have such a cultural divide, aren't these areas literal "other" countries, that could benefit from the same?
posted by iamck at 10:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
No. Just 1/4 of them.
posted by ian1977 at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes! More and better shaming!
They shame better. Shame differently. The amounts of shaming and calling Bush Hitler didn't help Kerry win in 2004. And it didn't help Clinton win this week. Innovate and up your shame game.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
They shame better. Shame differently. The amounts of shaming and calling Bush Hitler didn't help Kerry win in 2004. And it didn't help Clinton win this week. Innovate and up your shame game.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:15 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
that's just not true, and grossly unfair to half of your fellow Americans.
The proportion of the population that voted for Trump was something like 25%. I'm fully prepared to believe that 25% of Americans are either bigots, morons, or both.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The proportion of the population that voted for Trump was something like 25%. I'm fully prepared to believe that 25% of Americans are either bigots, morons, or both.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Take out "willfully" and it seems right to me. Some of them are just rubes, and Trump's nothing if not a rube-wrangler.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay. Then I would just add that when you suggested that qcubed was advocating genocide by saying that intent matters less than results, that was exactly the kind of hyperbole that makes POC feel that you are more interested in attacking us than in really reaching out to white Trump supporters.
I'm sorry you took that from my words.
posted by iamck at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry you took that from my words.
posted by iamck at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I for one would like to see the DNC expend at least as much effort in reaching the almost half of eligible voters who didn't vote (and working to protect the voting rights of the ones who couldn't) as they do figuring out how to best sell anti-racist policies to Trump voters.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:16 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
No. Just 1/4 of them.
20 percent, really, well with in the crazification factor.
posted by maxsparber at 10:17 AM on November 11, 2016
20 percent, really, well with in the crazification factor.
posted by maxsparber at 10:17 AM on November 11, 2016
There was a chilling interview on the radio last night with Evan Osnos, who wrote that "Trump's First Term" article in the New Yorker before the election. It's worth a listen. The president really does have essentially unlimited, unchecked power, if he chooses to ignore all existing traditions and norms.
This isn't just military and NSA stuff: he could easily do blatantly illegal or unconstitutional things, and the legislature and courts only have the power to respond afterwards. If President Trump declares that Islam is now illegal or that all suspected undocumented immigrants must be immediately removed with no due process, local authorities, if inclined, would act immediately. The west coast and northeast might refuse or resist - what happens then?
posted by theodolite at 10:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
This isn't just military and NSA stuff: he could easily do blatantly illegal or unconstitutional things, and the legislature and courts only have the power to respond afterwards. If President Trump declares that Islam is now illegal or that all suspected undocumented immigrants must be immediately removed with no due process, local authorities, if inclined, would act immediately. The west coast and northeast might refuse or resist - what happens then?
posted by theodolite at 10:17 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
No. Just 1/4 of them.
At least those people cared enough to vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
At least those people cared enough to vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The architect of the most racist law in modern American history has been named to Trump's team
SB1070 "papers please" law drafter coming into Trump's team.
Jesus fuck the hits just keep on coming.
Yeah.
This election was about the economy right?
Like I get the whole desire to want to talk things out with borderline and less informed Trumpsters but with people like this guy being brought straight into the den of power not sure just talking nice and civily with each other is gonna work.
A real fight is coming.
posted by Jalliah at 10:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
And how is it not true? Are there any informed, empathetic, decent people who voted for trump? If so, how are we measuring informed? I get the desire to not want to dismiss so many people, but look at the reality of it. The best you can say about someone that voted for trump is that they are woefully misinformed.
Okay tonycpsu....I agree. Willfully is perhaps a bit much. Some of them just might be ignorant. Ignorance can be fixed tho. So there's hope.
posted by ian1977 at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Okay tonycpsu....I agree. Willfully is perhaps a bit much. Some of them just might be ignorant. Ignorance can be fixed tho. So there's hope.
posted by ian1977 at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm more sorry that you said it. Maybe you can explain where I misinterpreted?
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
iamck: Don't get me wrong, I would love for such an approach to be feasible, but talking people out of the programming they've received from the Right-Wing media over the last couple of decades seems a bit quixotic.
Seems like it would be more effective to build a more cohesive coalition for the Dems, and avoid activating the Right-Wing base by displaying naked contempt.
Also, Iran, Libya and Yemen all had Peace Corps posts at some point.
posted by Coventry at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016
Seems like it would be more effective to build a more cohesive coalition for the Dems, and avoid activating the Right-Wing base by displaying naked contempt.
Also, Iran, Libya and Yemen all had Peace Corps posts at some point.
posted by Coventry at 10:19 AM on November 11, 2016
At least those people cared enough to vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on November 11
[+] [!]
They are passionate about their bigotry. I'll give them that.
posted by ian1977 at 10:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on November 11
[+] [!]
They are passionate about their bigotry. I'll give them that.
posted by ian1977 at 10:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
On another site, I was engaged in a disagreement about Sanders vs Clinton, and while I'm not interested in getting into that debate here for obvious reasons, one thing did really stand out to me about Clinton's loss, Sander's reanimated supporters questioning Clinton, and both my own feelings and those of the person I was disagreeing with.
There is an implicit element to the Sander's would have done better debate, which is that he would have perhaps been able to draw in more white voters while keeping the same group of Hillary supporters more or less, so the difference would be that Bernie supporters wouldn't support Hillary in the same way Hillary supporters would stand up for Sanders. This may be true, but it is on it's face the real problem and nothing to be proud of.
It speaks to the whole notion of building a coalition of people working together for perhaps somewhat more incremental change versus appealing more strongly to certain emotional elements and creating a groundswell around a single figure. The former is more traditionally a feminine aspect of work, while the latter is more masculine. Refusal of the former and these sorts of Fantasy Island arguments after the fact seem to strongly cluster around the issue of personal pride. The importance of "being right", of my belief being more important than the effect of my refusal to join in a secondary role or to accept I might not have the "best" answers. Sanders himself did not go that route, but some of his supporters did during the election and many of us supporting both him and Clinton are doing that now. Refusing to give in, arguing out of a belief in the importance of being seen as "right' even when there is no actual way to measure rightness in these scenarios and the arguments themselves might be damaging.
So much of this election seems to revolve around issues of pride over all else. Some link Trump's run itself to his pride being hurt at Obama's jokes, fights in the primaries among fellow Democrats over Sanders and Clinton, the Republican debates and their bizarre macho posturing, the accusations of Clinton supporters not taking white working class guys seriously enough and hurting their pride by mocking them, and so on. Pride itself has harmed the country greatly, and as a country so based on its excessive self measure, that is now coming back to haunt us as we fight over it being torn down over pride and with some of us fighting between ourselves over what happens next in that familiar left "educated" competition of who's the smartest and rightest rather than just looking forward by setting aside our pride and worrying about fixing things instead.
One thing that seems apparent to me is that for many Republicans pride is as much tribal as individual, whereas for many of the "educated" Democrats it's more personal than projected. That leads to different sorts of splits and different notions of what a coalition or team means. Clinton tried to challenge the Republican masculine team style with a more feminine one and failed in part because she couldn't get enough people on board, either from the Democratic side or the independent voter side doesn't matter as much as the idea that the team she could build had its limits just a little shy of team Trump who relied on stronger masculine appeals to ego and power. For the Democrats to beat that sort of appeal they have to learn to come together even when there isn't a heroic individual there to lead the charge. The "superhero" style of leadership is a real problem in what it demands and what it leads to and we've got to get away from it. That doesn't mean a charismatic figure can't run, but that charisma shouldn't be the demand for support since that isn't a necessary element in our system. How you convince people to step back from their emotions a little and look at things from a remove is the difficult thing, but it seems a necessary one.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
There is an implicit element to the Sander's would have done better debate, which is that he would have perhaps been able to draw in more white voters while keeping the same group of Hillary supporters more or less, so the difference would be that Bernie supporters wouldn't support Hillary in the same way Hillary supporters would stand up for Sanders. This may be true, but it is on it's face the real problem and nothing to be proud of.
It speaks to the whole notion of building a coalition of people working together for perhaps somewhat more incremental change versus appealing more strongly to certain emotional elements and creating a groundswell around a single figure. The former is more traditionally a feminine aspect of work, while the latter is more masculine. Refusal of the former and these sorts of Fantasy Island arguments after the fact seem to strongly cluster around the issue of personal pride. The importance of "being right", of my belief being more important than the effect of my refusal to join in a secondary role or to accept I might not have the "best" answers. Sanders himself did not go that route, but some of his supporters did during the election and many of us supporting both him and Clinton are doing that now. Refusing to give in, arguing out of a belief in the importance of being seen as "right' even when there is no actual way to measure rightness in these scenarios and the arguments themselves might be damaging.
So much of this election seems to revolve around issues of pride over all else. Some link Trump's run itself to his pride being hurt at Obama's jokes, fights in the primaries among fellow Democrats over Sanders and Clinton, the Republican debates and their bizarre macho posturing, the accusations of Clinton supporters not taking white working class guys seriously enough and hurting their pride by mocking them, and so on. Pride itself has harmed the country greatly, and as a country so based on its excessive self measure, that is now coming back to haunt us as we fight over it being torn down over pride and with some of us fighting between ourselves over what happens next in that familiar left "educated" competition of who's the smartest and rightest rather than just looking forward by setting aside our pride and worrying about fixing things instead.
One thing that seems apparent to me is that for many Republicans pride is as much tribal as individual, whereas for many of the "educated" Democrats it's more personal than projected. That leads to different sorts of splits and different notions of what a coalition or team means. Clinton tried to challenge the Republican masculine team style with a more feminine one and failed in part because she couldn't get enough people on board, either from the Democratic side or the independent voter side doesn't matter as much as the idea that the team she could build had its limits just a little shy of team Trump who relied on stronger masculine appeals to ego and power. For the Democrats to beat that sort of appeal they have to learn to come together even when there isn't a heroic individual there to lead the charge. The "superhero" style of leadership is a real problem in what it demands and what it leads to and we've got to get away from it. That doesn't mean a charismatic figure can't run, but that charisma shouldn't be the demand for support since that isn't a necessary element in our system. How you convince people to step back from their emotions a little and look at things from a remove is the difficult thing, but it seems a necessary one.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Can we do both?
posted by iamck at 10:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by iamck at 10:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
People are right to be angry but returning Othering with Othering isn't just morally questionable, it's counterproductive
Iit's natural for people to seek a catharsis. I just think if we have the same mindset going into 2018 then it means we wouldn't have learned a damn thing- about 2004.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Iit's natural for people to seek a catharsis. I just think if we have the same mindset going into 2018 then it means we wouldn't have learned a damn thing- about 2004.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yes, working class whites really did make Trump win. No, it wasn’t simply economic anxiety.
Even after controlling for income levels, employment levels, population size and the foreign-born population in a given county, the more white people there were who lacked a four-year degree, the more likely Trump outperformed Romney in that county. Roughly speaking, if you took an average county and increased the portion of less-educated whites by 10 percentage points, you would boost Trump’s winning margin by about three percentage points.posted by tonycpsu at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
What made these white voters change their minds?
Certain economic factors were important. Trump tended to outperform Romney in places where median incomes were a little lower, places where people tended to be out of work and where middle-aged whites were more likely to die.
But these places have been like this for a while. In fact, Trump's victory doesn't seem to be linked to any recent declines in people's economic circumstances. The economy has been getting better over the past four years. Median incomes have risen. The unemployment rate has plummeted including in regions won by Trump: [...]
In fact, if you just look at the simple correlation, Trump overperformed Romney in counties where the unemployment rate fell the most between 2012 and now. Part of it is that these places tended to have higher unemployment rates in 2012, so they had more room to improve. But it's clear it wasn't some recent decline in employment that affected how these counties voted. (The same is true of changes in median income.) [...]
Trump, on some level, understood the importance of making members of the white working class feel as though they were being heard. He tapped into deeper, slower-moving resentments.
I really feel like the "Sanders would have done better" thing is a piece of Fantasy Football. I suppose it's nice to examine -in theory-, but I'm not that interested in it in light of the really real problem we're facing in the actual real world.
Also, Batman would beat Bernie in a fight.
posted by Archelaus at 10:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, Batman would beat Bernie in a fight.
posted by Archelaus at 10:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think we can target Evangelical Christianity, which was a big factor in Trump's win. One of the first rules of Saul Alinsky-style activism is to target the difference between who people or corporations say they are and who they actually are, to make them publicly accountable for the difference.
Evangelical Christianity may be the religious wing of white supremacy, but it sure doesn't claim to be, and I think that's someplace where they are weak. Press them against the wall. Make them either live up to or renounce their own claims about themselves.
Evangelic Christianity has retreated into an apolitical bubble in the past. I think they can be pushed back in there.
posted by maxsparber at 10:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Evangelical Christianity may be the religious wing of white supremacy, but it sure doesn't claim to be, and I think that's someplace where they are weak. Press them against the wall. Make them either live up to or renounce their own claims about themselves.
Evangelic Christianity has retreated into an apolitical bubble in the past. I think they can be pushed back in there.
posted by maxsparber at 10:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
People are right to be angry but returning Othering with Othering
You keep saying this but voting for Trump is a choice, not an identity. You are comparing unlike things.
posted by zutalors! at 10:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Not mine!
posted by zutalors! at 10:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 10:25 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm more sorry that you said it. Maybe you can explain where I misinterpreted?
Yup. My comments are about the struggle and choice between 1) we talk to people or 2) we fight them.
As much as I'd like to go out and burn the red states down, I want to try non-violent ways of dialogue.
posted by iamck at 10:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yup. My comments are about the struggle and choice between 1) we talk to people or 2) we fight them.
As much as I'd like to go out and burn the red states down, I want to try non-violent ways of dialogue.
posted by iamck at 10:26 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Latino And Immigrant Leaders Resigned To President Trump But Prepared To Fight Him: A day earlier, United We Dream (UWD) held two calls — one in English and one in Spanish — that brought together 3,000 people through their 55 affiliates in 26 states, where community members shared their deep anxiety over whether their parents will be deported and DACA protections will be stripped from DREAMers. UWD staff themselves are concerned: Most of them have DACA or are completely undocumented.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I echo Frowner's lack of confidence. I have more confidence in a lungful of organophosphates keeping me alive than I have in you.
That's unfortunate, but I've got my reasons to fight that thankfully have nothing to do with your confidence.
posted by iamck at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's unfortunate, but I've got my reasons to fight that thankfully have nothing to do with your confidence.
posted by iamck at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Refraining from saying you want to burn down entire states is the first step to successful outreach.
posted by mochapickle at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016
I mean, you literally just reinterpreted what people are saying as a mindless act of terroristic violence -- burn down? Violent?
Think about what you're saying.
posted by maxsparber at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Think about what you're saying.
posted by maxsparber at 10:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
who said they want to burn the red states down?
I think I did, that's what I just implied.
posted by iamck at 10:28 AM on November 11, 2016
I think I did, that's what I just implied.
posted by iamck at 10:28 AM on November 11, 2016
Also, Batman would beat Bernie in a fight.
Batman would beat God in a fight, but only in the third act after a scene of him inventing a way to weaponize philosophical paradoxes.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Batman would beat God in a fight, but only in the third act after a scene of him inventing a way to weaponize philosophical paradoxes.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
they will still have to hear "para espanol oprima el uno" when they call their bank
Thanks for (unintentionally) giving me a brief laugh. (Cos I need it, along with virtual hugs. I'm feeling pretty isolated right now.)
But you reminded me of when somebody complained about that on my FB.This was before I belatedly, recently, found my power to either speak up or drop people. So all I did was think, "FFS,you just have to Press the other number; you're not being asked to do the Bataan death march."
posted by NorthernLite at 10:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thanks for (unintentionally) giving me a brief laugh. (Cos I need it, along with virtual hugs. I'm feeling pretty isolated right now.)
But you reminded me of when somebody complained about that on my FB.This was before I belatedly, recently, found my power to either speak up or drop people. So all I did was think, "FFS,you just have to Press the other number; you're not being asked to do the Bataan death march."
posted by NorthernLite at 10:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have lived in autocracies most of my life, and have spent much of my career writing about Vladimir Putin’s Russia.
I have learned a few rules for surviving in an autocracy and salvaging your sanity and self-respect. It might be worth considering them now:
Autocracy: Rules for Survival
posted by adamvasco at 10:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
I have learned a few rules for surviving in an autocracy and salvaging your sanity and self-respect. It might be worth considering them now:
Autocracy: Rules for Survival
posted by adamvasco at 10:30 AM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
I think I did, that's what I just implied.
Well, nobody else here is talking about burning down red states, so maybe respond to the actual suggestions people are making, instead of creating a scenario in which the only two options are your reasonable option of talking to people and the only other option, burning things down.
There are people in here making other suggestions, people of color, and people like me who is a target of this because of religion. You might start listening to their suggestions too.
posted by maxsparber at 10:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, nobody else here is talking about burning down red states, so maybe respond to the actual suggestions people are making, instead of creating a scenario in which the only two options are your reasonable option of talking to people and the only other option, burning things down.
There are people in here making other suggestions, people of color, and people like me who is a target of this because of religion. You might start listening to their suggestions too.
posted by maxsparber at 10:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, you literally just reinterpreted what people are saying as a mindless act of terroristic violence -- burn down? Violent?
Ugh, NO, I'm interpreting my own struggle in how to deal in these times in people who would threaten my family and friends. Anyways, keep on the fight in your own ways, I love you all.
posted by iamck at 10:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ugh, NO, I'm interpreting my own struggle in how to deal in these times in people who would threaten my family and friends. Anyways, keep on the fight in your own ways, I love you all.
posted by iamck at 10:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
You keep saying this but voting for Trump is a choice, not an identity. You are comparing unlike things.
Has anyone considered that being woke, being educated, having had the opportunity to experience different perspectives and the chance to emphasize with different people - is itself a form of privilege? That ignorance isn't always a moral failing, but rather a lack of access to a greater worldview that would promote empathy instead of bigotry?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Has anyone considered that being woke, being educated, having had the opportunity to experience different perspectives and the chance to emphasize with different people - is itself a form of privilege? That ignorance isn't always a moral failing, but rather a lack of access to a greater worldview that would promote empathy instead of bigotry?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:32 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
but rather a lack of access
Yeah, I forgot that they block Tumblr in rural communities.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I forgot that they block Tumblr in rural communities.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Batman would beat God in a fight, but only in the third act after a scene of him inventing a way to weaponize philosophical paradoxes.
I am sick of the Batman.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016
I am sick of the Batman.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016
The president really does have essentially unlimited, unchecked power, if he chooses to ignore all existing traditions and norms.
Yeah. I have spent the last six years or so arguing with everyone I know about how awful Obama's extension and expansion of Bush's surveillance state was, because it would of course stand forever, and for all future presidents. It was enough in itself to make me net-disappointed in Obama, in fact. But all I ever heard back was "well it's better than Bush! Are you saying Bush was better? I trust Obama!"
Sigh.
Maybe they see my point this week, or maybe they're only realizing it now. I am not proud.
If you care about privacy at all, things are gonna get worse, for sure. And that'll be enough to fuel any horrible act the state wishes to take based on the info it collects.
posted by rokusan at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah. I have spent the last six years or so arguing with everyone I know about how awful Obama's extension and expansion of Bush's surveillance state was, because it would of course stand forever, and for all future presidents. It was enough in itself to make me net-disappointed in Obama, in fact. But all I ever heard back was "well it's better than Bush! Are you saying Bush was better? I trust Obama!"
Sigh.
Maybe they see my point this week, or maybe they're only realizing it now. I am not proud.
If you care about privacy at all, things are gonna get worse, for sure. And that'll be enough to fuel any horrible act the state wishes to take based on the info it collects.
posted by rokusan at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
is itself a form of privilege?
And yet somehow it's a privilege enjoyed by some of the most downtrodden people in this country.
No. Not being woke is a mark of privilege, because the things that wake people up have never affected you and so you have not had to experience them, think about them, talk with people about them, come to a consensus about them, try to come up with tools for dealing with them.
Sleep is privilege.
posted by maxsparber at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
And yet somehow it's a privilege enjoyed by some of the most downtrodden people in this country.
No. Not being woke is a mark of privilege, because the things that wake people up have never affected you and so you have not had to experience them, think about them, talk with people about them, come to a consensus about them, try to come up with tools for dealing with them.
Sleep is privilege.
posted by maxsparber at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
Or kindergarten books about being nice to one another.
posted by ian1977 at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by ian1977 at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2016
Has anyone considered that being woke, being educated, having had the opportunity to experience different perspectives and the chance to emphasize with different people - is itself a form of privilege?
Seriously? Minorities/women/LGBTQ do not have a choice in being um, woke, educated, etc.
posted by zutalors! at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
You keep saying this but voting for Trump is a choice, not an identity. You are comparing unlike things.
Yeah this relates to something that can be quite foreign to outsiders who are trying to understand US politics and social culture. And it's the same in reverse.
When I first started learning about it I was astounded that when you register to vote you actually register your political affiliation. It took me a long time to get my head around the culture in which political affilation is such a part of people's identities. Likewise I've had Americans who come here who have a hard time with it not being a general part of our individual identities. It's just something you chose at the time you vote.
posted by Jalliah at 10:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
People talk about enthusiasm for Clinton being down compared to Obama, but don't mention that Obama's enthusiasm was in relation to the Bush administration, and people were less enthusiastic by 2012. In 2016, a younger generation just doesn't remember the Bush administration, and many just hear about how Obamacare is expensive, and how Obama accomplished nothing.
Obamacare has been weaponized, and a lot of white people see it as a burden that they resent. My dad, who voted for Clinton, complains about it all the damn time. I don't think the rural white or suburban white voters would have gone for Sander's policies of debt-free college or increased minimum wage as much as people think, as these are framed by the GOP and media as requiring burdensome taxes, and a lot of white voters will resent these policies as not benefitting them, but just unduly costing them.
As far as targeting voters, maybe we should look at the large group of registered voters that just didn't get up and vote at all. I think the Clinton campaign failed to get through the media narrative of 'EMAIL SCANDAL' , except after the DNC and after the first debate. I think any future Democratic campaign needs to look at the effect all of the hacking, emails, FBI, Wikileaks, fake news, etc. had on the perception of the voters/non-voters, because they need to be prepared for it, no matter who runs. This was an unprecedented confluence of propaganda and misinformation campaigns, and it worked.
posted by airish at 10:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Obamacare has been weaponized, and a lot of white people see it as a burden that they resent. My dad, who voted for Clinton, complains about it all the damn time. I don't think the rural white or suburban white voters would have gone for Sander's policies of debt-free college or increased minimum wage as much as people think, as these are framed by the GOP and media as requiring burdensome taxes, and a lot of white voters will resent these policies as not benefitting them, but just unduly costing them.
As far as targeting voters, maybe we should look at the large group of registered voters that just didn't get up and vote at all. I think the Clinton campaign failed to get through the media narrative of 'EMAIL SCANDAL' , except after the DNC and after the first debate. I think any future Democratic campaign needs to look at the effect all of the hacking, emails, FBI, Wikileaks, fake news, etc. had on the perception of the voters/non-voters, because they need to be prepared for it, no matter who runs. This was an unprecedented confluence of propaganda and misinformation campaigns, and it worked.
posted by airish at 10:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
I've spoken with two Trump supporters after the election. One said he was glad to see Communist Obama go and one was glad the Clinton - Obama Social agenda was over. I'm not sure how much talking I want to do with his supporters. Conspiracy theory dialogue seems pointless.
posted by PHINC at 10:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by PHINC at 10:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
If sanders had lost to trump we'd all be sitting here arguing over whether Clinton would have won. Who cares?
posted by ian1977 at 10:38 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 10:38 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Conspiracy theory dialogue seems pointless.
And yet, not talking to these voters is what got us president-elect Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And yet, not talking to these voters is what got us president-elect Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
To my brothers and sisters in the US, my profound sympathies.
TO the rest of you, please join the international boycott of American goods and media and tourist embargo. As they say, it is neither protest nor punishment, but conscience.
posted by Jode at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
TO the rest of you, please join the international boycott of American goods and media and tourist embargo. As they say, it is neither protest nor punishment, but conscience.
posted by Jode at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you are not white and straight, please figure out how to get your urban camouflage on so that you blend. Part of the key to survival is studying the dominant power system and learning how to "go in phase" with it or otherwise disappear from the center of the target. It's unfair, it's invalidating, it sucks and a lot of minority people can't just make this a money problem and buy themselves out of it (wardrobe, new vehicle, house repairs, surgeries for trans people, etc) so I get it, I do.
I'm trying right now to get my employer to reach out to trans communities and activist groups and making sure people know that our company is global, fully trans inclusive on all fronts.
Minorities need jobs, I'm not sure what to do about decriminalizing sex work, I feel so helpless there but at the very least I'm trying to get hopeful messaging and outreach coordinated for trans people so they at least know there are employers that want and need their presence in their workplace cultures. It's about the best I can do right now.
As far as political processes, I've completely abandoned any notion that I can prevent restrictions of trans rights at my state (Texas) or federal level, but I live in the capital, Austin, and will most definitely be raising hell in the 2017 legislative session because there will be some hellacious anti-trans lawmaking going down this spring here.
I'm not very hopeful, but I'm doing what I can and not backing down.
This is a time of figuring out how to get as many people out of the crosshairs of the republican agenda. Whatever you can do, however small, please do it. Help is needed.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm trying right now to get my employer to reach out to trans communities and activist groups and making sure people know that our company is global, fully trans inclusive on all fronts.
Minorities need jobs, I'm not sure what to do about decriminalizing sex work, I feel so helpless there but at the very least I'm trying to get hopeful messaging and outreach coordinated for trans people so they at least know there are employers that want and need their presence in their workplace cultures. It's about the best I can do right now.
As far as political processes, I've completely abandoned any notion that I can prevent restrictions of trans rights at my state (Texas) or federal level, but I live in the capital, Austin, and will most definitely be raising hell in the 2017 legislative session because there will be some hellacious anti-trans lawmaking going down this spring here.
I'm not very hopeful, but I'm doing what I can and not backing down.
This is a time of figuring out how to get as many people out of the crosshairs of the republican agenda. Whatever you can do, however small, please do it. Help is needed.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:42 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Can someone please give me an invite to Pantsuit Nation? I hear there's organizing going on there, now.
Please memail me for my FB email.
posted by Coventry at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Please memail me for my FB email.
posted by Coventry at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
And yet, not talking to these voters is what got us president-elect Trump.
Is that what did it? All Hillary needed to do was hit the heartland with a little bit of plain-spoken truth and the people who think Obama is a Muslim and that the Muslim Brotherhood is establishing sharia law in this country would have voted for her instead?
No, what got us president-elect Trump was unlimited corporate funding of political candidates, eight years of blatant racism from the right, a collusion by the FBI, Wikileaks, and Russia to smear a candidate, and voter suppression. None of that had anything to do with trying to talk sense into the 20 percent of this country that is either actively or passively racist.
posted by maxsparber at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
Is that what did it? All Hillary needed to do was hit the heartland with a little bit of plain-spoken truth and the people who think Obama is a Muslim and that the Muslim Brotherhood is establishing sharia law in this country would have voted for her instead?
No, what got us president-elect Trump was unlimited corporate funding of political candidates, eight years of blatant racism from the right, a collusion by the FBI, Wikileaks, and Russia to smear a candidate, and voter suppression. None of that had anything to do with trying to talk sense into the 20 percent of this country that is either actively or passively racist.
posted by maxsparber at 10:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
And yet, not talking to these voters is what got us president-elect Trump.
You cannot reason or 'talk' to people who are absolutely mired in conspiracy theories. Not every Trump voter is this far gone. Focus on those.
Well I guess that's not entirely true you can do it but you pretty much have to long term access to them and become an expert in cult deprogramming techniques.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
You cannot reason or 'talk' to people who are absolutely mired in conspiracy theories. Not every Trump voter is this far gone. Focus on those.
Well I guess that's not entirely true you can do it but you pretty much have to long term access to them and become an expert in cult deprogramming techniques.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is that what did it? All Hillary needed to do was hit the heartland with a little bit of plain-spoken truth and the people who think Obama is a Muslim and that the Muslim Brotherhood is establishing sharia law in this country would have voted for her instead?
I'm not sure why Mefi is so sort of rude today, but no, that's not all.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure why Mefi is so sort of rude today, but no, that's not all.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
posted by zutalors! at 10:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 10:46 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
None of that had anything to do with trying to talk sense into the 20 percent of this country that is either actively or passively racist.
It was not necessary to get 20% of the entire country to get those last remaining EVs.
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
Little do they know, Keith Ellison is also a Rust Belt populist who's solid on the economic issues that Trump Democrats care about.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
It was not necessary to get 20% of the entire country to get those last remaining EVs.
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
Little do they know, Keith Ellison is also a Rust Belt populist who's solid on the economic issues that Trump Democrats care about.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:47 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
'm not sure why Mefi is so sort of rude today, but no, that's not all.
So please explain. But in the meanwhile, pleased respect that I am someone who has seen people in my life, people I care about, actively threatened by the very people you want the Democratic party to talk to, so I may not be entirely made up of sweetness and good cheer.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
So please explain. But in the meanwhile, pleased respect that I am someone who has seen people in my life, people I care about, actively threatened by the very people you want the Democratic party to talk to, so I may not be entirely made up of sweetness and good cheer.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The International Humanist and Ethical Union Statement on the US Presidential Election
While individual humanists may have various views on issues around foreign, economic and environmental policy, the direction of travel promised by Trump on international matters is clearly against internationalism and in favor of nationalist exceptionalism; against cooperation for mutual benefit between nations and in favor of narrow self-interest; and against the overwhelmingly corroborated scientific consensus on climate change.posted by audi alteram partem at 10:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Along with IHEU Member Organizations in the US — including American Atheists, American Ethical Union, American Humanist Association and Center for Inquiry — and IHEU members around the world, we will continue to advance humanist ideas and to resist bigotry and prejudice. On the international stage we will redouble our efforts in the promotion of universal human rights, we will continue to champion secularism and secular freedoms, and we will insist that the future must be one where – instead of building walls between ourselves and others – we work together for justice, peace, and the values of equality and human dignity.
So please explain. But in the meanwhile, pleased respect that I am someone who has seen people in my life, people I care about, active threatened by the very people you want the Democratic party to talk to, so I may not be entirely made up of sweetness and good cheer.
I don't know what the right answer is, but I know that ignoring the people who voted for Trump isn't going to do anything to help the rest of us.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know what the right answer is, but I know that ignoring the people who voted for Trump isn't going to do anything to help the rest of us.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:49 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
which is why bernie and pretty much all of us on the left are trying to get keith ellison as DNC head...
posted by burgerrr at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
which is why bernie and pretty much all of us on the left are trying to get keith ellison as DNC head...
posted by burgerrr at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Little do they know, Keith Ellison is a Rust Belt populist who's solid on the economic issues that Trump Democrats care about.
What a strange response. He's deliberately calling out Ellison's race, religion and progressive values as a bad move for the Democrats.
posted by zutalors! at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
tumblr though is going the way of twitter. Unless you curate your dash carefully, you're as likely to find radfem vs. bi vs. trans slugfests, or tedious fanwank about the sexuality of ambiguous TV characters accompanied by liberal use of "-phobia" applied to other interpretations. I locked my account due to a nasty anti-asexual flamewar that made certain tags and searches unreadable, and havn't looked back except to note that dumpster fire is still burning.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
There aren't enough faces in the world, nor palms.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
There aren't enough faces in the world, nor palms.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think we can target Evangelical Christianity, which was a big factor in Trump's win.
You can start by not referring to Evangelical Christianity as a singular entity.
There are Northern Evangelicals. There are Southern Evangelicals.
A decent litmus test between the two isn't GPS coordinates. It's the number of languages used for services on Sunday. Northern Evangelicals strive to offer at least one immigrant group with a service. Often more than one. They're Larry Wall's people.
Southern evangelicals, meanwhile, have consciously or unconsciously, been using their northern counterparts as cover. For decades. Northern evangelicals are being treated to a very rude awakening about this now. It's playing out on my Facebook feed as I type this.
posted by ocschwar at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
What a strange response. He's deliberately calling out Ellison's race, religion and progressive values as a bad move for the Democrats.
And he's a shortsighted twit, but the point is Ellison's race and religion is coupled goes hand-in-hand with economic progressivism that will cross over to many different demographics. That is what we need more of.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
And he's a shortsighted twit, but the point is Ellison's race and religion is coupled goes hand-in-hand with economic progressivism that will cross over to many different demographics. That is what we need more of.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
And jesus, that's the "Deputy Washington Editor, The New York Times." At this point, we just need to get Paul Krugman and Charles Blow to safety and launch the NYT building into the sun.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm mixed on trying to reach out to red state Americans. I know that for the most part they want the same things everyone does, a job, a home, opportunities to succeed, etc. That hucksters have sold them a bullshit story about how minority X is stealing their jobs is obviously pure fantasy. I think most if them realize it's bullshit as well.
They know that the jobs aren't coming back. The know that small town America is dead or dying. Their kids and grandkids leave asap or get caught in a spiral of poverty but home means a lot to people and it is hard to pack up and leave and many no longer have relevant work skills.
They are dying off, their churches are closing or have only gray hair members.
They don't want a hand out they want a hand up but decades of bullshit keep them from electing representatives that could create real policies to help rural America
posted by vuron at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
They know that the jobs aren't coming back. The know that small town America is dead or dying. Their kids and grandkids leave asap or get caught in a spiral of poverty but home means a lot to people and it is hard to pack up and leave and many no longer have relevant work skills.
They are dying off, their churches are closing or have only gray hair members.
They don't want a hand out they want a hand up but decades of bullshit keep them from electing representatives that could create real policies to help rural America
posted by vuron at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
You can start by not referring to Evangelical Christianity as a singular entity.
Yes, I am quite aware of the various branches of Evangelical Christianity, and when I work up my 100 point plan for addressing it, I will be clearer, but pardon me if I'm not in the mood for a #notallevangelicals now.
posted by maxsparber at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes, I am quite aware of the various branches of Evangelical Christianity, and when I work up my 100 point plan for addressing it, I will be clearer, but pardon me if I'm not in the mood for a #notallevangelicals now.
posted by maxsparber at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
And yet, not talking to these voters is what got us president-elect Trump.I think it's more complex than that. We were ignorant and arrogant, for sure, but I think the biggest issues were Clinton's credibility -- not as a woman, but as an honest broker of power -- and open contempt for our opponents. One reduced our turnout, the other increased theirs.
I think it's perfectly feasible to build an effective coalition without bringing Trump's voters along. The failure was in the credibility of what our coalition offered.
Not to RLTP, but that was the basic appeal of Bernie for me and the people I worked with -- he'd been saying the same thing for forty years, and it was easy to convince people he'd deliver if they helped.
posted by Coventry at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
A number of groups on Twitter are offering to pay passport fees for trans Americans who need passports with correct gender identifiers and can't afford it, and #translawhelp has lawyers offering help with legal name changes.
If any mefites need help with passport fees, discreetly, you can memail me too.
posted by zachlipton at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
If any mefites need help with passport fees, discreetly, you can memail me too.
posted by zachlipton at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
What a strange response. He's deliberately calling out Ellison's race, religion and progressive values as a bad move for the Democrats.
And he's a shortsighted twit, but the point is Ellison's race and religion is coupled goes hand-in-hand with economic progressivism that will cross over to many different demographics. That is what we need more of.
..ok, but my point was that that is a fucking racist comment worth condemnation, but I guess here on Day 3 that's a point of nuance.
posted by zutalors! at 10:54 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is what Democrats trying to get the party to cater to white guys is going to look like.
If you want to see what it SHOULD look like, go follow Van Jones on Facebook. It's not rocket science. If Van Jones can do it, so can any white liberal.
posted by ocschwar at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2016
If you want to see what it SHOULD look like, go follow Van Jones on Facebook. It's not rocket science. If Van Jones can do it, so can any white liberal.
posted by ocschwar at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2016
He made a stupid comment but ironically he used a phrase that happens to accurately describe the target of his flawed racist critique.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:57 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 10:57 AM on November 11, 2016
Well here is one thing:
Democrats, liberals, the left or whatever you want to call it and whoever is in power needs to get better at the blatant and simplistic propaganda game.
That's always been a tough one because of generally liking to counter it with facts and reason. I'm like that!
But if we're doing lessons learned here look at what Trump did well and used well, even if it was by accident. His constant repetition of Crooked Hillary and the online social machine that backed it up is one example.
He also had help and will still have help by groups of people paid to diseminates misinformation and blanket comment pages. That wasn't him doing it (Russians et al) but it's something to be learn from.
posted by Jalliah at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Democrats, liberals, the left or whatever you want to call it and whoever is in power needs to get better at the blatant and simplistic propaganda game.
That's always been a tough one because of generally liking to counter it with facts and reason. I'm like that!
But if we're doing lessons learned here look at what Trump did well and used well, even if it was by accident. His constant repetition of Crooked Hillary and the online social machine that backed it up is one example.
He also had help and will still have help by groups of people paid to diseminates misinformation and blanket comment pages. That wasn't him doing it (Russians et al) but it's something to be learn from.
posted by Jalliah at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
You'll never reach the majority of Trump supporters. What they need is to be extracted from their rural or small town white Christian enclaves and forced to live amongst immigrants, minorities and gay communities until they learn a little compassion and humility.
Talking to them is pissing in the wind.
posted by angrybear at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Talking to them is pissing in the wind.
posted by angrybear at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I don't know what the right answer is, but I know that ignoring the people who voted for Trump isn't going to do anything to help the rest of us.
Here's a radical suggestion. And I mean really radical and not just abusing an intensifier.
If you feel called to do organizing and outreach among a particular demographic group, do it! Start with finding your allies within that demographic group (since no group is a monolith.)
If you feel called to queer, black, or feminist separatism, a tradition of activism in response to violence going all the way back to the First Reconstruction, do it! Help build safe spaces for those who need it. And we do need it.
Meanwhile, recognize that different people have different callings, speak kindly of others who are serving different needs, and try to have each other's back rather than point fingers.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
Here's a radical suggestion. And I mean really radical and not just abusing an intensifier.
If you feel called to do organizing and outreach among a particular demographic group, do it! Start with finding your allies within that demographic group (since no group is a monolith.)
If you feel called to queer, black, or feminist separatism, a tradition of activism in response to violence going all the way back to the First Reconstruction, do it! Help build safe spaces for those who need it. And we do need it.
Meanwhile, recognize that different people have different callings, speak kindly of others who are serving different needs, and try to have each other's back rather than point fingers.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:59 AM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
The comic Glue notes a change in thought on respect for the office.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
NBC: NEW: VP-elect Pence to take on oversight of power transition process, which was previously led by Gov. Christie (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:03 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a white cis male. I've been engaging Trump voters every day for a year. In my experience, even the civil ones are unreachable. They are not listening to anyone outside their bubble. They refuse to own the meaning of their vote. Some of them have become explicitly intimidating, especially on social media. I am finished with trying to get them to think beyond themselves. I always shut down bigotry when I see it, but for now that's going to be in meatspace only. No more trying to change minds for me. I'm sticking to what is productive from now on: drawing the people I love close, and actively serving those who are in danger.
posted by Lyme Drop at 11:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 11:04 AM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
We have had the "you must reserve endless patience for the people who hate you" discussion five hundred million times,
I know it's hard right now - harder than ever before - but I find myself wishing that at the very least, people could at least try to avoid making blanket assumptions about the people they think hate them, or are immoral, or unethical. I don't address this to you specifically, but to a rising drumbeat that I feel has been somewhat louder today.
I am here with you all, because I love you as a community, and I feel this is my home, and because I am desperately, terribly saddened, in the pit of despair really, over what this week has wrought. I am hurting, like you are hurting. We are all hurting together.
I am also a Republican. I also never finished my college degree - because as a single mother, I could no longer afford to do so and still feed my tiny family. I identify as religious and strive to attend church services, though like any other human, I often fail. Especially after the war, I feel more at home in low-density places such as rural America.
In the best of times, we often disagree more than we agree, and I have often, for my own idiosyncratic ideology, agreed with people whose motivations were apparently terrible. I have often overestimated people's goodness and underestimated their evil, because as an inherently flawed human being, I am in great need of forgiveness and understanding, and would like to provide it as much as I can.
But when people say things here about how all Republicans are unethical, or everyone who fits the demographics that voted Trump (evangelical, rural, low-education, etc) must have secretly wanted this, it makes me want to cry. In fact, literal tears are rolling down my cheek right now as I type this, because this week is already so, so hard and we have failed so deeply and it is so awful, that my nerves are pretty raw.
I just - I know this is a little meta, and I apologize, but it would be so good if we could try to be kind at least to people who are here, in this thread. I'm not saying not disagree, or not analyze, but just - be kind. It would be wonderful, in this week where I am in danger of despairing of human kindness, to keep finding it.
posted by corb at 11:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [64 favorites]
I know it's hard right now - harder than ever before - but I find myself wishing that at the very least, people could at least try to avoid making blanket assumptions about the people they think hate them, or are immoral, or unethical. I don't address this to you specifically, but to a rising drumbeat that I feel has been somewhat louder today.
I am here with you all, because I love you as a community, and I feel this is my home, and because I am desperately, terribly saddened, in the pit of despair really, over what this week has wrought. I am hurting, like you are hurting. We are all hurting together.
I am also a Republican. I also never finished my college degree - because as a single mother, I could no longer afford to do so and still feed my tiny family. I identify as religious and strive to attend church services, though like any other human, I often fail. Especially after the war, I feel more at home in low-density places such as rural America.
In the best of times, we often disagree more than we agree, and I have often, for my own idiosyncratic ideology, agreed with people whose motivations were apparently terrible. I have often overestimated people's goodness and underestimated their evil, because as an inherently flawed human being, I am in great need of forgiveness and understanding, and would like to provide it as much as I can.
But when people say things here about how all Republicans are unethical, or everyone who fits the demographics that voted Trump (evangelical, rural, low-education, etc) must have secretly wanted this, it makes me want to cry. In fact, literal tears are rolling down my cheek right now as I type this, because this week is already so, so hard and we have failed so deeply and it is so awful, that my nerves are pretty raw.
I just - I know this is a little meta, and I apologize, but it would be so good if we could try to be kind at least to people who are here, in this thread. I'm not saying not disagree, or not analyze, but just - be kind. It would be wonderful, in this week where I am in danger of despairing of human kindness, to keep finding it.
posted by corb at 11:05 AM on November 11, 2016 [64 favorites]
The rise of Trump is the end of little c conservatism.
You don't spell "Reagan" with those letters. Seriously, you might be able to pitch this interpretation if you want to say it's the end of the pretense of little c conservatism, but in my lifetime the only president who hadn't run a deficit was Clinton. Republican saint Reagan drove it up 142%. The only dem in my parents' lifetime to do worse was FDR who was presiding over a big-ass war. A big chunk of Obama's deficit spending was round two of stimulus, which everyone was pretty cool with when Bush43 was the one presiding over it. And there's nothing small-c-conservative about the way the Republicans use military spending as a (shittily targeted) stimulus program.
posted by phearlez at 11:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
You don't spell "Reagan" with those letters. Seriously, you might be able to pitch this interpretation if you want to say it's the end of the pretense of little c conservatism, but in my lifetime the only president who hadn't run a deficit was Clinton. Republican saint Reagan drove it up 142%. The only dem in my parents' lifetime to do worse was FDR who was presiding over a big-ass war. A big chunk of Obama's deficit spending was round two of stimulus, which everyone was pretty cool with when Bush43 was the one presiding over it. And there's nothing small-c-conservative about the way the Republicans use military spending as a (shittily targeted) stimulus program.
posted by phearlez at 11:06 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump will be 70 years 7 months and 7 days old on his first day in office.
posted by bukvich at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by bukvich at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2016
Lyme Drop: IME, you can reach them if they don't feel like they can tell you to fuck off, you're prepared to engage them respectfully for a few hours, and you have a lot of emotional discipline. But that doesn't scale.
posted by Coventry at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just - I know this is a little meta, and I apologize, but it would be so good if we could try to be kind at least to people who are here, in this thread. I'm not saying not disagree, or not analyze, but just - be kind. It would be wonderful, in this week where I am in danger of despairing of human kindness, to keep finding it
I think people are being radically unkind to PoC in this thread, and some have quit contributing because of that.
posted by zutalors! at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Donald Trump Doesn't Like This Any More Than You Do
posted by neroli at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by neroli at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
The Democratic Party already includes millions of racists. When I was canvassing in Iowa I met one nice old white lady after another who couldn't wait to tell me about refugees taking over, how awful Somalis are to their children, how annoying Vietnamese people sound. Shamelessly, like remarking on the weather, with people of color standing right there in front of them. These were not just wavering registered Democrats, but also local HRC campaign volunteers. Trump flipped Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio by winning these people by the thousands, but what can we do to get them back, other than co-opting the same vile ideas?
posted by theodolite at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Just saw a post elsewhere : "Aw wow, an anagram of Donald Trump is Turd Mop Land! America has a new name!"
posted by jeffburdges at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
people say things here about how all Republicans are unethical
where?
or everyone who fits the demographics that voted Trump (evangelical, rural, low-education, etc) must have secretly wanted this
where?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
where?
or everyone who fits the demographics that voted Trump (evangelical, rural, low-education, etc) must have secretly wanted this
where?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
But when people say things here about how all Republicans are unethical, or everyone who fits the demographics that voted Trump (evangelical, rural, low-education, etc) must have secretly wanted this, it makes me want to cry. In fact, literal tears are rolling down my cheek right now as I type this, because this week is already so, so hard and we have failed so deeply and it is so awful, that my nerves are pretty raw.
Corb I love you and I know you're hurting. It's quite clear to me that the conversation is about Trump supporters. And yes a lot of those demos are Trump supporters but many are not. It is foundationally about people in the election the voted for Trump no matter what demo they fall into.
posted by Jalliah at 11:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Corb I love you and I know you're hurting. It's quite clear to me that the conversation is about Trump supporters. And yes a lot of those demos are Trump supporters but many are not. It is foundationally about people in the election the voted for Trump no matter what demo they fall into.
posted by Jalliah at 11:13 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
If any women here would like help finding separatist space or land to visit or live, please MeMail me. I am on the inside track of the female separatist community and would be happy to share everything I know.
Trump flipped Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio by winning these people by the thousands, but what can we do to get them back, other than co-opting the same vile ideas?
For our part, Wisconsin was flipped at least partially due to voter suppression. I'm not as intimately familiar with GOP voter suppression efforts in other states, but they were breathtakingly effective here, and we are not going to be able to regain those losses until we can destroy the disenfranchisement apparatus and get people back to the polls.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
Trump flipped Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio by winning these people by the thousands, but what can we do to get them back, other than co-opting the same vile ideas?
For our part, Wisconsin was flipped at least partially due to voter suppression. I'm not as intimately familiar with GOP voter suppression efforts in other states, but they were breathtakingly effective here, and we are not going to be able to regain those losses until we can destroy the disenfranchisement apparatus and get people back to the polls.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
NBC: NEW: VP-elect Pence to take on oversight of power transition process, which was previously led by Gov. Christie (cite)
President Pence. It's starting. And I don't mean that Donald will necessarily be impeached. Just mean that Pence, like Cheny is going to wield a shitload of power in this adminstration.
posted by Jalliah at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
President Pence. It's starting. And I don't mean that Donald will necessarily be impeached. Just mean that Pence, like Cheny is going to wield a shitload of power in this adminstration.
posted by Jalliah at 11:20 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean... fuck me.
@GallupNews:
#Obama Job Approval: Approve 58% (+2); Disapprove 40% (-2). Get the full trend http://on.gallup.com/Obama13.
posted by chris24 at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
@GallupNews:
#Obama Job Approval: Approve 58% (+2); Disapprove 40% (-2). Get the full trend http://on.gallup.com/Obama13.
posted by chris24 at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Thanks to the person who helped me with a Pantsuit Nation invite.
posted by Coventry at 11:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 11:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pence is way dumber than Cheney though, and Cheney shot a guy in the face.
posted by zutalors! at 11:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 11:23 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
More and more I feel like the defining aspect of conservatism is callousness. It's a readiness to let others suffer, and an eagerness to inflict suffering upon them.
It's deeper than bigotry. Bigotry is in everyone's heart. In the conservative heart maybe it festers more. But even if you cut around the bigotry, if you deflect all the bullshit propaganda and framing in their heads, if you slog through the disgusting hypocrisy of their applied Christianity..
Deep down, what defines them is they just don't give a goddamn fucking shit about other people's problems, and in fact they kinda think everyone else deserves to have problems. You brought it on your own damn self.
I think some of it is a failure mode of Christianity; it's the effect of self-righteousness in a small mind. But most of it, is that they accepted a duty of suffering to themselves (military service, economic hardship, motherhood, whatever). They suffered, and they have no shits left to give for others. If you cannot carry your burden of suffering, then fuck you, fall and die.
And the worst thing you can be to them is someone who hasn't properly suffered. They love that power of judgment, to decide who should suffer, and who should feel soft forgiveness.
That's what's at the center of it, in my experience at least.
They don't really want their suffering alleviated. It's precious to them. Trying to get out of it is immoral, criminal. And so the suffering of others should be left in place as well.
So you can't really sell them on empathy, or appeals to the common good, no matter how much you don't talk about racism.
posted by fleacircus at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [46 favorites]
It's deeper than bigotry. Bigotry is in everyone's heart. In the conservative heart maybe it festers more. But even if you cut around the bigotry, if you deflect all the bullshit propaganda and framing in their heads, if you slog through the disgusting hypocrisy of their applied Christianity..
Deep down, what defines them is they just don't give a goddamn fucking shit about other people's problems, and in fact they kinda think everyone else deserves to have problems. You brought it on your own damn self.
I think some of it is a failure mode of Christianity; it's the effect of self-righteousness in a small mind. But most of it, is that they accepted a duty of suffering to themselves (military service, economic hardship, motherhood, whatever). They suffered, and they have no shits left to give for others. If you cannot carry your burden of suffering, then fuck you, fall and die.
And the worst thing you can be to them is someone who hasn't properly suffered. They love that power of judgment, to decide who should suffer, and who should feel soft forgiveness.
That's what's at the center of it, in my experience at least.
They don't really want their suffering alleviated. It's precious to them. Trying to get out of it is immoral, criminal. And so the suffering of others should be left in place as well.
So you can't really sell them on empathy, or appeals to the common good, no matter how much you don't talk about racism.
posted by fleacircus at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [46 favorites]
Pres-elect Trump announces Trump Presidential Transition Team Executive Committee.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
So, uh, remember when Trump said his kids would be running the business? Eric and Donny Jr and Ivanka are on that list (and Tiffany is, of course, not).
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, Barron left off. Sad.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:28 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:28 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, uh, remember when Trump said his kids would be running the business? Eric and Donny Jr and Ivanka are on that list
I think it signals pretty clearly what he meant by "the business."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it signals pretty clearly what he meant by "the business."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:29 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Through a "blind trust," which will fit exactly zero meanings of that term. I know he didn't exactly cover himself in glory later in the campaign, but Kurt Eichenwald's story on Trump's potential conflicts of interest is essential reading.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:30 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:30 AM on November 11, 2016
Peter Fucking Thiel is on the transition committee.
I mean, I guess wow, a gay dude. but then again, it's a gay dude.
smh.
Of all the gay men in all the country Peter Thiel is their man.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, I guess wow, a gay dude. but then again, it's a gay dude.
smh.
Of all the gay men in all the country Peter Thiel is their man.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sure are a lot of Wealthy Coastal Elites on that list.
posted by theodolite at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
#Obama Job Approval: Approve 58% (+2); Disapprove 40% (-2). Get the full trend
You know that Nobel he won at the start of his term for not being Bush, the one a lot of people thought was unjustified? It looks like it might just be retroactively justified.
posted by acb at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
You know that Nobel he won at the start of his term for not being Bush, the one a lot of people thought was unjustified? It looks like it might just be retroactively justified.
posted by acb at 11:31 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've got this book project here on mefi
I'll donate 100% of the proceeds (2 dollars per book) to support legal needs for trans people. I need to figure out the best fund to give the money. I'll update the project page. Please share.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'll donate 100% of the proceeds (2 dollars per book) to support legal needs for trans people. I need to figure out the best fund to give the money. I'll update the project page. Please share.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:35 AM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Every single Black freshman at Penn got added to a Facebook group calling for their lynching.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
Pence is way dumber than Cheney though
I wish I could take some comfort in that, but I have seen dumb cruelty flourish in power plenty of times before. Cheney's an awful son of a bitch, so this is the worst kind of online quiz in the world, but if the son of a bitch is gonna be in power anyway part of me prefers the canny kind. You can at least hope they might make a tactical redirect when their shit gets booed.
posted by cortex at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish I could take some comfort in that, but I have seen dumb cruelty flourish in power plenty of times before. Cheney's an awful son of a bitch, so this is the worst kind of online quiz in the world, but if the son of a bitch is gonna be in power anyway part of me prefers the canny kind. You can at least hope they might make a tactical redirect when their shit gets booed.
posted by cortex at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It must be noted that the "Trump voters" are an odd coalition of multiple groups with conflicting interests (if I miss any, let me know):
1) The full-blown Fascists who believe they have found their orange fuhrer.
2) Previously-quiet racists, misogynists and other bigots who saw Trump's turning GOP dogwhistles into foghorns and were happy they could stop being PC.
3) Regular Republicans who couldn't be #nevertrump because it would require voting for (a) a Democrat (b) a woman or (c) a Clinton, and who hope he'll pivot into more conventional Republicanism.
4) 'Evangelical' Christians who are either Prosperity Gospel followers who don't know why they haven't been rewarded yet, Science Deniers who believe the Noah's Flood story and think rising sea levels are caused by sin, Holy Warriors who want to kill or convert the heathens or people just trying to bring on the Rapture.
5) single-issue anti free-trade voters who want America to be more of an economic bully to the world.
6) Idiot Populists who think he's "anti-establishment".
7) top .01%ers and their sycophantic followers who just don't want to pay taxes or be regulated.
8) Donald Trump who just wants to be a Dictator, but doesn't care so much about what he Dictates except what affects him personally.
The obvious conflicts among these constituencies will at least be entertaining, and at best, will prevent some of the awfullest potential results from happening.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
1) The full-blown Fascists who believe they have found their orange fuhrer.
2) Previously-quiet racists, misogynists and other bigots who saw Trump's turning GOP dogwhistles into foghorns and were happy they could stop being PC.
3) Regular Republicans who couldn't be #nevertrump because it would require voting for (a) a Democrat (b) a woman or (c) a Clinton, and who hope he'll pivot into more conventional Republicanism.
4) 'Evangelical' Christians who are either Prosperity Gospel followers who don't know why they haven't been rewarded yet, Science Deniers who believe the Noah's Flood story and think rising sea levels are caused by sin, Holy Warriors who want to kill or convert the heathens or people just trying to bring on the Rapture.
5) single-issue anti free-trade voters who want America to be more of an economic bully to the world.
6) Idiot Populists who think he's "anti-establishment".
7) top .01%ers and their sycophantic followers who just don't want to pay taxes or be regulated.
8) Donald Trump who just wants to be a Dictator, but doesn't care so much about what he Dictates except what affects him personally.
The obvious conflicts among these constituencies will at least be entertaining, and at best, will prevent some of the awfullest potential results from happening.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Obama is going to be popular af after 4 years of Trump.
Trump might very well have won for some values of win but he's awful for Republicans unless he pivots 180.
Let's be honest Democrats were complacent and we failed to show up and we were unprepared to deal with voter suppression. We should have done better.
But in Trump all the nasty little wars inside of the Republican party are going to boil over. Dominionist evangelicals vs pro business Republicans vs the last remnants of small c conservatives.
Their base expects results and they aren't going to be able to deliver because deep down they are as fractured as the Democrats.
They know that they have to deliver immigration reform even though yhe the base hates it because they have to improve with other demographic groups. They can only push the agenda of intolerance so far or they anger millenials.
They won't go near entitlements because the third rail is still very much in place and boomers will tear them apart if SS or Medicare get hit.
There is no bipartisan cover for their next steps. Success or failure will be on them.
Demographics is destiny and the more they double down on hate the harder it will be for them.
And that's assuming that the left doesn't grind shit to a halt with constant protests ala occupy.
posted by vuron at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump might very well have won for some values of win but he's awful for Republicans unless he pivots 180.
Let's be honest Democrats were complacent and we failed to show up and we were unprepared to deal with voter suppression. We should have done better.
But in Trump all the nasty little wars inside of the Republican party are going to boil over. Dominionist evangelicals vs pro business Republicans vs the last remnants of small c conservatives.
Their base expects results and they aren't going to be able to deliver because deep down they are as fractured as the Democrats.
They know that they have to deliver immigration reform even though yhe the base hates it because they have to improve with other demographic groups. They can only push the agenda of intolerance so far or they anger millenials.
They won't go near entitlements because the third rail is still very much in place and boomers will tear them apart if SS or Medicare get hit.
There is no bipartisan cover for their next steps. Success or failure will be on them.
Demographics is destiny and the more they double down on hate the harder it will be for them.
And that's assuming that the left doesn't grind shit to a halt with constant protests ala occupy.
posted by vuron at 11:36 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's best to just give money to trans activist groups. Please help however you can.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:37 AM on November 11, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:37 AM on November 11, 2016
The Republican Party has fairly consistently been moderately ok with being gay as long as you're: male, wealthy if not extremely wealthy, powerful, pretty quiet about it, never mention anything about rights, and willing to throw anybody else anywhere near the QUILTBAG umbrella who doesn't conform to these norms under the bus, as Thiel himself did at the RNC.
posted by zachlipton at 11:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:40 AM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Every single Black freshman at Penn got added to a Facebook group calling for their lynching.
The Daily Penn has a story. It was apparently a GroupMe chat, they're investigating, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Daily Penn has a story. It was apparently a GroupMe chat, they're investigating, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do These Things Now:
If you are transgender and your identity documents don’t reflect who you are, it is a good idea to update your documents — including any state-issued IDs, passport and Social Security record — before the new administration takes office. We have a whole Know Your Rights section on this topic,
If you are a same-sex couple raising children, it’s important that both parents have secure legal ties to your children. If you have not done a second-parent adoption or a joint adoption, that may be an important step to take now if it’s possible in your state. A formal adoption judgment from a court can give important security -- even if both parents’ names are already on each child’s birth certificate -- because court judgments must be respected state-to-state and by the federal government. If you are not married, and if your state does not permit a formal adoption judgment for unmarried parents, we suggest you seek a parentage order in states where that is possible. Other suggestions include making sure that each child’s Social Security number record lists both parents as the child’s legal parents, and obtaining a passport for each child that lists both parents as the child’s legal parents.
Get your life planning documents in place. Create or update your medical power of attorney or health care proxy and living will. The hospital visitation policy put in place by the Obama administration is consistent with state laws and should remain in place under a Trump administration. No change in federal policy can undermine these documents. It is important to have these legally enforceable written documents stating your wishes about medical care and decision-making, and about who may visit you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:44 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
If you are transgender and your identity documents don’t reflect who you are, it is a good idea to update your documents — including any state-issued IDs, passport and Social Security record — before the new administration takes office. We have a whole Know Your Rights section on this topic,
If you are a same-sex couple raising children, it’s important that both parents have secure legal ties to your children. If you have not done a second-parent adoption or a joint adoption, that may be an important step to take now if it’s possible in your state. A formal adoption judgment from a court can give important security -- even if both parents’ names are already on each child’s birth certificate -- because court judgments must be respected state-to-state and by the federal government. If you are not married, and if your state does not permit a formal adoption judgment for unmarried parents, we suggest you seek a parentage order in states where that is possible. Other suggestions include making sure that each child’s Social Security number record lists both parents as the child’s legal parents, and obtaining a passport for each child that lists both parents as the child’s legal parents.
Get your life planning documents in place. Create or update your medical power of attorney or health care proxy and living will. The hospital visitation policy put in place by the Obama administration is consistent with state laws and should remain in place under a Trump administration. No change in federal policy can undermine these documents. It is important to have these legally enforceable written documents stating your wishes about medical care and decision-making, and about who may visit you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:44 AM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
So hey I just had a conversation online with a guy who (friend of an FB friend) who was VERY OFFENDED that I called voting for Trump racist. He said he didn't vote for him (3rd party maybe, I didn't ask) but he was making many of the same points: how can I persuade people if I call them names?
There is another question to be asked here, though: how can I be an ally if I refuse to call racism what it is? If I don't call out my fellow white people, who will?
This is on us, white people. WE lost this election, our racial group's fears and hatred are doing something worse to our government than any of us ever imagined.
Of course you are not going to convince people with one FB tussle. But what you CAN do, in public discussions, is explain, for the general audience, why Trump/his policies are racist and you have to oppose them and so should everyone. Maybe the guy pushing back on you is a lost cause, but there are others reading, and some of them might be open.
I got to the end of what I needed to say then left that discussion, because the rest was mere nitpicking over terms and gripes. I don't know if it did any good, but I'm going to keep doing it, whenever I have the spoons to. I'm not going to pander, I'm going to stand firm.
And I get the fear, what if standing firm loses us the next election too? Well then, we're already toast. If we can only win by being White Supremacist Lite, we're done, call it day, nice to know you humanity. We are out of time to hope for gentle, gradual enlightenment. We might be out of time as a species anyway but in that case, we REALLY have nothing to lose and need to go out speaking truth.
There is a lot of space between "gentle persuasion" and "armed revolt" so don't think I'm going there. Resistance is what we are called to now. We must persuade by refusing to back down.
Or we might as well just give up now.
posted by emjaybee at 11:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
There is another question to be asked here, though: how can I be an ally if I refuse to call racism what it is? If I don't call out my fellow white people, who will?
This is on us, white people. WE lost this election, our racial group's fears and hatred are doing something worse to our government than any of us ever imagined.
Of course you are not going to convince people with one FB tussle. But what you CAN do, in public discussions, is explain, for the general audience, why Trump/his policies are racist and you have to oppose them and so should everyone. Maybe the guy pushing back on you is a lost cause, but there are others reading, and some of them might be open.
I got to the end of what I needed to say then left that discussion, because the rest was mere nitpicking over terms and gripes. I don't know if it did any good, but I'm going to keep doing it, whenever I have the spoons to. I'm not going to pander, I'm going to stand firm.
And I get the fear, what if standing firm loses us the next election too? Well then, we're already toast. If we can only win by being White Supremacist Lite, we're done, call it day, nice to know you humanity. We are out of time to hope for gentle, gradual enlightenment. We might be out of time as a species anyway but in that case, we REALLY have nothing to lose and need to go out speaking truth.
There is a lot of space between "gentle persuasion" and "armed revolt" so don't think I'm going there. Resistance is what we are called to now. We must persuade by refusing to back down.
Or we might as well just give up now.
posted by emjaybee at 11:48 AM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is on us, white people. WE lost this election, our racial group's fears and hatred are doing something worse to our government than any of us ever imagined.
I think Samantha Bee expressed this very well: "If Muslims have to take responsibility for every member of their community, so do we [white people]."
posted by zachlipton at 11:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [35 favorites]
I think Samantha Bee expressed this very well: "If Muslims have to take responsibility for every member of their community, so do we [white people]."
posted by zachlipton at 11:51 AM on November 11, 2016 [35 favorites]
Pam Bondi is on the transition team. You know, the Florida AG Trump bribed so she'd drop the case against Trump U.
I expect the crickets will be deafening in the same media that screamed EMAILS for the 10 days before the election. Just deafening.
posted by lydhre at 11:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [51 favorites]
I expect the crickets will be deafening in the same media that screamed EMAILS for the 10 days before the election. Just deafening.
posted by lydhre at 11:58 AM on November 11, 2016 [51 favorites]
Yeah, one of my cousins just posted this (trigger warning: Washington Times) article: Donald Trump holds high the flag for gay equality with rainbow hearts:
❤️💛💚💙💜
I countered with Trump Victory Alarms Gay and Transgender Groups and Mike Pence’s top seven most homophobic moments (out of many)
posted by kirkaracha at 12:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
❤️💛💚💙💜
I countered with Trump Victory Alarms Gay and Transgender Groups and Mike Pence’s top seven most homophobic moments (out of many)
posted by kirkaracha at 12:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So personal actions aside, what the fuck do we do about the media? They played a huge part in this, though it's hard to tell if they wanted Trump to win or were just so enamored of the ratings they never gave the fairness of their coverage a thought. Is there anything we can do to change them? That's honestly where I feel the most despair. If they are biased enough against Democrats to throw whole elections, how in god's name do we combat that? They have all the megaphones.
posted by emjaybee at 12:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 12:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Seriously? Minorities/women/LGBTQ do not have a choice in being um, woke, educated, etc.
Seeing as how 53% of white women voted for Trump, what does that make them? Sleepwalkers? I think there is a lot more diversity in viewpoints and interests and awareness between the groups you mention than this analysis (which seems to echo some sort of class consciousness?) allows.
posted by dmh at 12:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Seeing as how 53% of white women voted for Trump, what does that make them? Sleepwalkers? I think there is a lot more diversity in viewpoints and interests and awareness between the groups you mention than this analysis (which seems to echo some sort of class consciousness?) allows.
posted by dmh at 12:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Harvard Business Review: What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class
Understand That Working Class Means Middle Class, Not Poor
The terminology here can be confusing. When progressives talk about the working class, typically they mean the poor. But the poor, in the bottom 30% of American families, are very different from Americans who are literally in the middle: the middle 50% of families whose median income was $64,000 in 2008. That is the true “middle class,” and they call themselves either “middle class” or “working class.”
“The thing that really gets me is that Democrats try to offer policies (paid sick leave! minimum wage!) that would help the working class,” a friend just wrote me. A few days’ paid leave ain’t gonna support a family. Neither is minimum wage. WWC men aren’t interested in working at McDonald’s for $15 per hour instead of $9.50. What they want is what my father-in-law had: steady, stable, full-time jobs that deliver a solid middle-class life to the 75% of Americans who don’t have a college degree. Trump promises that. I doubt he’ll deliver, but at least he understands what they need.
Other points:
Understand Working-Class Resentment of the Poor
Understand How Class Divisions Have Translated into Geography
If You Want to Connect with White Working-Class Voters, Place Economics at the Center
Avoid the Temptation to Write Off Blue-Collar Resentment as Racism
Yet another insightful and personal article about the working class attempts to explain the different cultural and geographical differences in this country. But at this point I sort of feel like there's dueling choirs talking past each other. Those who believe that Trump's appeal is rooted in bigotry full-stop, and those who don't.
Can we come to some sort of compromise position where we can address multiple issues at once? Can we at least acknowledge that bigotry is fueled by a sense of insecurity, and part of that insecurity is economic, class anxiety? Can we at least acknowledge that these problems go hand in hand?
And based on that article, it would seem like Trump's demographic isn't simply bigoted towards marginalized groups, but against those poorer than them.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Understand That Working Class Means Middle Class, Not Poor
The terminology here can be confusing. When progressives talk about the working class, typically they mean the poor. But the poor, in the bottom 30% of American families, are very different from Americans who are literally in the middle: the middle 50% of families whose median income was $64,000 in 2008. That is the true “middle class,” and they call themselves either “middle class” or “working class.”
“The thing that really gets me is that Democrats try to offer policies (paid sick leave! minimum wage!) that would help the working class,” a friend just wrote me. A few days’ paid leave ain’t gonna support a family. Neither is minimum wage. WWC men aren’t interested in working at McDonald’s for $15 per hour instead of $9.50. What they want is what my father-in-law had: steady, stable, full-time jobs that deliver a solid middle-class life to the 75% of Americans who don’t have a college degree. Trump promises that. I doubt he’ll deliver, but at least he understands what they need.
Other points:
Understand Working-Class Resentment of the Poor
Understand How Class Divisions Have Translated into Geography
If You Want to Connect with White Working-Class Voters, Place Economics at the Center
Avoid the Temptation to Write Off Blue-Collar Resentment as Racism
Yet another insightful and personal article about the working class attempts to explain the different cultural and geographical differences in this country. But at this point I sort of feel like there's dueling choirs talking past each other. Those who believe that Trump's appeal is rooted in bigotry full-stop, and those who don't.
Can we come to some sort of compromise position where we can address multiple issues at once? Can we at least acknowledge that bigotry is fueled by a sense of insecurity, and part of that insecurity is economic, class anxiety? Can we at least acknowledge that these problems go hand in hand?
And based on that article, it would seem like Trump's demographic isn't simply bigoted towards marginalized groups, but against those poorer than them.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
So personal actions aside, what the fuck do we do about the media? They played a huge part in this, though it's hard to tell if they wanted Trump to win or were just so enamored of the ratings they never gave the fairness of their coverage a thought. Is there anything we can do to change them? That's honestly where I feel the most despair. If they are biased enough against Democrats to throw whole elections, how in god's name do we combat that? They have all the megaphones.
Support local journalism and alternative news sources with cold hard cash.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Support local journalism and alternative news sources with cold hard cash.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, being a white woman most certainly does not make anyone woke. I invite you to look into the horrifying abyss of Facebook.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
I don't really know how to process this one. Donald Trump Gives First Interview as President-Elect to Sheldon Adelson’s Israeli Newspaper
posted by zachlipton at 12:08 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 12:08 PM on November 11, 2016
it would seem like Trump's demographic isn't simply bigoted towards marginalized groups, but against those poorer than them.
Those poorer than them have a high probability of not being white. Things that make you go hmmm.
On a whim last night I exported some FEC data on Pennsylvania contributors to Trump's election PAC (all donors including small dollar). Lots of retired people, lots of people with the job title "owner" "CEO" or "co-owner." A terrifying number of doctors and a few lawyers. Carnegie Mellon math faculty have a lot to answer for. Every now and then you'd see "janitor" or "facilities manager" or "bus driver" but not nearly as many as one would think given the media narrative about the downtrodden Trump supporter.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Those poorer than them have a high probability of not being white. Things that make you go hmmm.
On a whim last night I exported some FEC data on Pennsylvania contributors to Trump's election PAC (all donors including small dollar). Lots of retired people, lots of people with the job title "owner" "CEO" or "co-owner." A terrifying number of doctors and a few lawyers. Carnegie Mellon math faculty have a lot to answer for. Every now and then you'd see "janitor" or "facilities manager" or "bus driver" but not nearly as many as one would think given the media narrative about the downtrodden Trump supporter.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
How EMAILS! Threw the Election
posted by tonycpsu at 12:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]Trump’s analysts had detected this upsurge in the electorate even before FBI Director James Comey delivered his Oct. 28 letter to Congress announcing that he was reopening his investigation into Clinton’s e-mails. But the news of the investigation accelerated the shift of a largely hidden rural mass of voters toward Trump.My only quibble is that the media deserves far more blame than Drum assigns them here. All of the same players tried to gin up bullshit pseudo-scandals about Obama but they didn’t get any traction because, for reasons I can’t explain, mainstream journalists rarely chased the Republicans down the rabbit holes for anti-Obama stories. (Whatever combination of luck or talent it reflects, it will be the hardest thing to find again going forward.)
….After Comey, that movement of older, whiter voters became newly evident. It’s what led Trump’s campaign to broaden the electoral map in the final two weeks and send the candidate into states such as Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that no one else believed he could win (with the exception of liberal filmmaker Michael Moore, who deemed them “Brexit states”). Even on the eve of the election Trump’s models predicted only a 30 percent likelihood of victory. [...]
Comey provided the match that Trump used to light the country on fire. People who decided on their vote during the last week—after Comey wrote his letter—broke strongly for Trump. People who decided on their vote during the last couple of days—after Comey cleared Clinton—broke about evenly. Did that letter make a difference of 1 percent? No one will ever be able to prove or disprove it, but I’ll bet it did.
Anyway, before we start with the inevitable pundit’s fallacies from every direction, it’s worth noting that the marginal Rust Belt voters that made the election close enough to trigger a democratic malfunction aren’t merely “gettable.” Clinton got them. She lost them because the media — which largely assumed Trump couldn’t win — played by the Clinton rules one last time. I would ask how these reporters and editors live with themselves, except the horrifying truth is that I bet most of them aren’t giving their gross misallocation of priorities a second thought.
I don't really know how to process this one. Donald Trump Gives First Interview as President-Elect to Sheldon Adelson’s Israeli Newspaper
He's avoiding the US press like the plague.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
He's avoiding the US press like the plague.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Bringing up Facebook and the media/misinformation bubble is definitely an important part of the conversation.
If one believed that Podesta was literally participating in satanic rituals or that Clinton had ordered guillotines shipped to the US then accusations of racism must've seemed quaint and irrelevant.
posted by wallgrub at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If one believed that Podesta was literally participating in satanic rituals or that Clinton had ordered guillotines shipped to the US then accusations of racism must've seemed quaint and irrelevant.
posted by wallgrub at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
it would seem like Trump's demographic isn't simply bigoted towards marginalized groups, but against those poorer than them.
Well, yeah. Benefit scroungers, or as I believe you American folks call them, welfare queens.
posted by threetwentytwo at 12:15 PM on November 11, 2016
Well, yeah. Benefit scroungers, or as I believe you American folks call them, welfare queens.
posted by threetwentytwo at 12:15 PM on November 11, 2016
I would be more amenable to the whole "b-b-b-but the ECONOMY" argument if the data wasn't so obviously against it.
posted by Anonymous at 12:16 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 12:16 PM on November 11, 2016
Daily Show and Colbert Report really did help me get through the day-to-day of the Bush terms.
Colbert was good last night
posted by Golem XIV at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Colbert was good last night
posted by Golem XIV at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Those poorer than them have a high probability of not being white. Things that make you go hmmm.
Oppression can be intersectional, just as the oppressed are.
not nearly as many as one would think given the media narrative about the downtrodden Trump supporter.
I suspect voting demographics are different from donor ones. Wasn't Sanders pretty anomalous for the number of small donations? It's not as if Trump rallies were packed by those CEOs and doctors and lawyers. Retirees, maybe.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oppression can be intersectional, just as the oppressed are.
not nearly as many as one would think given the media narrative about the downtrodden Trump supporter.
I suspect voting demographics are different from donor ones. Wasn't Sanders pretty anomalous for the number of small donations? It's not as if Trump rallies were packed by those CEOs and doctors and lawyers. Retirees, maybe.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The jobs that Trump is supposed to bring back are all macho shit: mining coal, forging steel, building cars. While everyone's been focusing on the wrecked rural PA town with the long-closed mine, I suspect this rhetoric might have had a more important effect on suburban and exurban men who are not actually struggling that much, but feel bored and emasculated at their office-park cubicle job where they have to fill out TPS reports and kowtow to nerds and women. That kind of manly, steady, communal labor sounds appealing in this environment, and it hasn't been a dominant part of the economy in so long that they've forgotten how utterly brutalizing it is.
posted by theodolite at 12:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [63 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 12:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [63 favorites]
Retirees, maybe.
Largest percentage of the data I pulled, by far.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:18 PM on November 11, 2016
Largest percentage of the data I pulled, by far.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:18 PM on November 11, 2016
Don't think this was linked above, possibly of interest to Corb and to share with any conservative women you know who didn't fall in line.
posted by phearlez at 12:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 12:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
theodolite I wish I had more faves for your comment.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would be more amenable to the whole "b-b-b-but the ECONOMY" argument if the data wasn't so obviously against it.
Class in America is tied to not just income and economics but also the cultures that form around it. That's why a billionaire New Yorker landlord was able to appeal to those making much less than him, even if they weren't the poorest of the poor, he was able to speak their language and connect to them.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Class in America is tied to not just income and economics but also the cultures that form around it. That's why a billionaire New Yorker landlord was able to appeal to those making much less than him, even if they weren't the poorest of the poor, he was able to speak their language and connect to them.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump’s top domestic policy adviser: being gay is a ‘lifestyle’ that ‘can be changed’. Just in case there was any doubt, Trump will be an anti-LGBT president.
Ken Blackwell. FFS.
posted by homunculus at 12:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Ken Blackwell. FFS.
posted by homunculus at 12:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
The coal thing has Pence's fingerprints all over it as he's tried to revive the Indiana coal industry.
But, I think a great deal of the debate about if and how to build bridges would be better served if a bunch of us on metafilter stopped yelling at each other over nuances of strategy to take a quiet afternoon with the Civil Rights literature that addressed these problems.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
But, I think a great deal of the debate about if and how to build bridges would be better served if a bunch of us on metafilter stopped yelling at each other over nuances of strategy to take a quiet afternoon with the Civil Rights literature that addressed these problems.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Every single Black freshman at Penn got added to a Facebook group calling for their lynching.
Jesus fucking shit. I just started working at Penn. I don't have a lot of undergrad contact, but I'm going to have to figure out how to make students of color here feel less afraid. I'm glad the Provost's office is on it, but this hate crime needs legal action, swift and merciless.
posted by biogeo at 12:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Jesus fucking shit. I just started working at Penn. I don't have a lot of undergrad contact, but I'm going to have to figure out how to make students of color here feel less afraid. I'm glad the Provost's office is on it, but this hate crime needs legal action, swift and merciless.
posted by biogeo at 12:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
>Understand That Working Class Means Middle Class, Not Poor
Give the man a little time--he hasn't even taken office yet.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Give the man a little time--he hasn't even taken office yet.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been told several times today by folks that it's not fair to call Trump a racist or a sexist, because that's name calling.
None of them has adequately been able to tell me how to describe his racist, sexist actions without using the proper labels for what they are.
It's making discourse across the way pretty tough.
posted by Archelaus at 12:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
None of them has adequately been able to tell me how to describe his racist, sexist actions without using the proper labels for what they are.
It's making discourse across the way pretty tough.
posted by Archelaus at 12:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
There is a group hug scheduled for tomorrow in Dolores Park in San Francisco. That is all.
posted by zachlipton at 12:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 12:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
That is horrible about Penn. I receive treatment through the dental school and my shrink and my best friend are graduates. It's hard for me to grok somebody who goes to school in a neighborhood encroaching on West Philly would think that something like this would be cool in any way. I mean, I can't empathize with this shit, I mean I'm totally light years from it, I hope whoever did this gets due process and punished as much as the law allows. These fuckers won. They fucking won. And in celebration it's just projectile voiding of shit over marginalized people?
This is why I've gone from zero politics to posting on fb and tweeting links posted here, and thank you for the info. Whoever did this at Penn is a bad person and we have to push back at the idea you can be a racist and let that go unchallenged. I'm guess I'm sorry/not sorry to be clogging up people's feed with this shit as long as it continues, which, hey, we got at least four years of this so buckle up hick relatives.
posted by angrycat at 12:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is why I've gone from zero politics to posting on fb and tweeting links posted here, and thank you for the info. Whoever did this at Penn is a bad person and we have to push back at the idea you can be a racist and let that go unchallenged. I'm guess I'm sorry/not sorry to be clogging up people's feed with this shit as long as it continues, which, hey, we got at least four years of this so buckle up hick relatives.
posted by angrycat at 12:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is how the world’s best cartoonists are reacting to Trump’s victory
posted by Jalliah at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Jalliah at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
No! Many of them do not feel this way, they simply have the privilege that they can overlook the more hateful things that he has said about marginalized groups - because of their privilege and because of their lives.
It's funny whenever I encounter those people they're gleeful about being racists and general bigots if they think you will be okay with it. I usually end up screwing up their ratios because I simply don't discuss things more controversial than the weather with anyone. So they say appalling things to me and then I (usually full of fear) tell them I disagree because people I love are in their hated category. Then they stop talking, which is not a CHANGING HEARTS AND MINDS moment but I figure at least they know not everyone agrees with them.
I know that PoC know this, but if you are white and don't know how blindingly racist most of your fellow white people are then either you aren't paying attention or you need to tell me where you live so I can move there.
Also I grew up poor as shit in one of the most impoverished areas in the nation yet somehow I managed not to grow up to be a hood-wearing asshole so everyone needs to shut the fuck up with that 'poor white people just don't know any better' bullshit.
posted by winna at 12:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
It's funny whenever I encounter those people they're gleeful about being racists and general bigots if they think you will be okay with it. I usually end up screwing up their ratios because I simply don't discuss things more controversial than the weather with anyone. So they say appalling things to me and then I (usually full of fear) tell them I disagree because people I love are in their hated category. Then they stop talking, which is not a CHANGING HEARTS AND MINDS moment but I figure at least they know not everyone agrees with them.
I know that PoC know this, but if you are white and don't know how blindingly racist most of your fellow white people are then either you aren't paying attention or you need to tell me where you live so I can move there.
Also I grew up poor as shit in one of the most impoverished areas in the nation yet somehow I managed not to grow up to be a hood-wearing asshole so everyone needs to shut the fuck up with that 'poor white people just don't know any better' bullshit.
posted by winna at 12:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
So both Peter Thiel and Ken Blackwell? That is a very performative way of choosing people important to your presidency - one gay dude (asshole though he is) and one anti-gay dude. If anything illustrates the hollowness of Trump politics, their genuinely fascist aesthetic, this sure does.
That is, what's important about hating gay people isn't even actually believing that gay people are bad; it's that it's fun and productive to hate gay people and you know this and admit it to yourself; it's not unconscious anymore. So you can actually have some gays around when it's convenient, because you don't actually believe in hating gay people, you just believe in hate qua hate. Hate as an aesthetic gesture, a style.
Oh well, this is all so terrible that I'm starting to find it funny in a very dark way.
posted by Frowner at 12:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
That is, what's important about hating gay people isn't even actually believing that gay people are bad; it's that it's fun and productive to hate gay people and you know this and admit it to yourself; it's not unconscious anymore. So you can actually have some gays around when it's convenient, because you don't actually believe in hating gay people, you just believe in hate qua hate. Hate as an aesthetic gesture, a style.
Oh well, this is all so terrible that I'm starting to find it funny in a very dark way.
posted by Frowner at 12:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
Paul Ryan Says Medicare Privatization Is On:
Ryan tells Baier, “Because of Obamacare, Medicare is going broke.” This is false. In fact, it’s the complete opposite of the truth. The Medicare trust fund has been extended 11 years as a result of the passage of Obamacare, whose cost reforms have helped bring health care inflation to historic lows. It is also untrue that repealing Obamacare requires changing traditional Medicare. But Ryan clearly believes he needs to make this claim in order to sell his plan, or probably even to convince fellow Republicans to support it.posted by zachlipton at 12:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
they've forgotten how utterly brutalizing it is.
I'd like to also add that they will be contract jobs like the North Dakota oil boom jobs are, all sub contractors of subcontractors. No benefits and all will be nightmare scenarios like have been repeated in North Dakota. No one carries adequate insurance coverage, there's no Workers Comp so when shit goes wrong you are on your own.
It's like going to war with no VA to cover you on the back end.
posted by readery at 12:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'd like to also add that they will be contract jobs like the North Dakota oil boom jobs are, all sub contractors of subcontractors. No benefits and all will be nightmare scenarios like have been repeated in North Dakota. No one carries adequate insurance coverage, there's no Workers Comp so when shit goes wrong you are on your own.
It's like going to war with no VA to cover you on the back end.
posted by readery at 12:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am still not sure that even Ryan, even with the Republican senate, can privatize Medicare. It will be so obviously worse for all retirees and so obviously expensive and convoluted a transition that I think it will be really hard to sell. I'm not saying he doesn't want to and won't try, but I don't think it's a given at all.
posted by Frowner at 12:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
WWC men aren’t interested in working at McDonald’s for $15 per hour instead of $9.50. What they want is what my father-in-law had: steady, stable, full-time jobs that deliver a solid middle-class life to the 75% of Americans who don’t have a college degree. Trump promises that. I doubt he’ll deliver, but at least he understands what they need.
I don't like a lot of what's in that article, but this piece is I think its most important part. People talk about the "working class", and they are talking about two entirely different groups of people. For some, I think - but please correct me - that when they are talking about "the working class", they mean "people who have a job, but aren't incredibly well off". For others, "working class" means what the author suggests - good, stable, steady full-time jobs that can deliver a solid middle-class life.
And I think that's in some ways behind the Hispanic and other voters who (wrongly) voted for Trump. People came to America with the promise of that life. That's the life they saw in media, the life other people had when they were learning what America was. They struggled, but they did so knowing that life was accessible and around the corner. A life where they could work a solid job and retire at that job, a life where their wife didn't have to work, and they could own a house, and go on family vacations, and send their kids to summer camp and college.
But that life really isn't as accessible, and I don't think anyone has plans to bring it back. Possibly more importantly, I don't know if it was ever possible for everyone, or if it only existed because so many people didn't have access to it. I think that some people are saying, "We used to have that life, so give it back to us" And other people are saying either, "If we can't give it to everyone, we don't want to give it to anyone" or, "Our priority is not giving some people back a wonderful life, when other people are struggling really heavily". And those are fine abstract policies, but the individual middle-working-class people or people who expected to grow up middle-working-class don't actually get anything from those statements.
tl;dr We're fucked.
posted by corb at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
I don't like a lot of what's in that article, but this piece is I think its most important part. People talk about the "working class", and they are talking about two entirely different groups of people. For some, I think - but please correct me - that when they are talking about "the working class", they mean "people who have a job, but aren't incredibly well off". For others, "working class" means what the author suggests - good, stable, steady full-time jobs that can deliver a solid middle-class life.
And I think that's in some ways behind the Hispanic and other voters who (wrongly) voted for Trump. People came to America with the promise of that life. That's the life they saw in media, the life other people had when they were learning what America was. They struggled, but they did so knowing that life was accessible and around the corner. A life where they could work a solid job and retire at that job, a life where their wife didn't have to work, and they could own a house, and go on family vacations, and send their kids to summer camp and college.
But that life really isn't as accessible, and I don't think anyone has plans to bring it back. Possibly more importantly, I don't know if it was ever possible for everyone, or if it only existed because so many people didn't have access to it. I think that some people are saying, "We used to have that life, so give it back to us" And other people are saying either, "If we can't give it to everyone, we don't want to give it to anyone" or, "Our priority is not giving some people back a wonderful life, when other people are struggling really heavily". And those are fine abstract policies, but the individual middle-working-class people or people who expected to grow up middle-working-class don't actually get anything from those statements.
tl;dr We're fucked.
posted by corb at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
Man, people keep being surprised when Clinton's popular vote lead increases. I posted that she was probably gonna win by 2 million votes by like midnight on election night. It's almost like nobody reads every single comment out of 50,000 :(
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Is there any reason to believe that the people who voted for Trump wouldn't have voted for John Kasich or Jeb Bush or Chris Christie? I mean there's a strong argument to be made that the worst of them wouldn't have gone for Ben Carson or Carly Fiorina, but any white male Republican could have won this election, especially since they would have also won the NeverTrumps.
posted by rocket88 at 12:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 12:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been talking about that some for a few days, now, Corb, because of a post Sotonohito made about it in one of the earlier threads. We don't really have replacements for a lot of the jobs that used to be in the manufacturing sector, for example.
I haven't stumbled on any answers, in particular, and I feel like most politicians aren't doing anything -resembling- a good job of addressing the issue (or even noticing that it exists, for that matter).
But I also am dead certain that "Just get more folks through college" is not a sufficient answer for anyone but student loan companies.
posted by Archelaus at 12:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I haven't stumbled on any answers, in particular, and I feel like most politicians aren't doing anything -resembling- a good job of addressing the issue (or even noticing that it exists, for that matter).
But I also am dead certain that "Just get more folks through college" is not a sufficient answer for anyone but student loan companies.
posted by Archelaus at 12:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
A key piece of understanding Trump? He is often swayed by whoever he last talked to--@maggieNYT
That links to the WSJ article: Donald Trump Willing to Keep Parts of Health Law, where Trump has apparently given his first (US) interview since the election:
In his first interview since his election earlier this week, Mr. Trump said one priority was moving “quickly” on the president’s signature health initiative, which he argued has become so unworkable and expensive that “you can’t use it.”He really has no spine. Now he's up for Obamacare to be "amended," which is what everyone, even Clinton and Sanders wanted all along. Nobody was on Team Obamacare Exactly As It Is Forever And Always. And as I've discussed before, requiring coverage for preexisting conditions is unworkable without the mandate and the subsidies; there simply won't be an individual insurance market under those conditions.
Yet, Mr. Trump also showed a willingness to preserve at least two provisions of the health law after the president asked him to reconsider repealing it during their meeting at the White House on Thursday.
Mr. Trump said he favors keeping the prohibition against insurers denying coverage because of patients’ existing conditions, and a provision that allows parents to provide years of additional coverage for children on their insurance policies.
“I like those very much,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.
...
On health care, Mr. Trump said a big reason for his shift from his call for an all-out repeal was that Thursday meeting at the White House with the president, who, he said, suggested areas of the Affordable Care Act to preserve. “I told him I will look at his suggestions, and out of respect, I will do that,” Mr. Trump said in his Trump Tower office.
“Either Obamacare will be amended, or repealed and replaced,” Mr. Trump said.
Deregulating the banks is also one of his first priorities, so way to go, populists!
posted by zachlipton at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
It will be so obviously worse for all retirees and so obviously expensive and convoluted a transition that I think it will be really hard to sell.
the plan was/is to grandfather in people age 55+
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016
the plan was/is to grandfather in people age 55+
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016
Can we at least acknowledge that bigotry is fueled by a sense of insecurity, and part of that insecurity is economic, class anxiety? Can we at least acknowledge that these problems go hand in hand
I think their anxiety and insecurity is more fueled a lot more by xenophobia and racism than given credit. They see hard working immigrants and their children go to college, and instead of accepting it as society being better in general and everyone gaining from folks working and being educated, they see the jobs they deserve and the education their children have the right to stolen. Instead of seeing the labor and production contributing to the world economy in China and India as a net good, they only see foreigners cheating and keep looking nervously at the rankings to make sure America is #1.
You know, I'm spitballing, but maybe a lot of the people who switched from Obama to Trump this time just simply voted for who they saw could make America be #1, and it's of secondary (or lower) concern whether other people are better or worse off. Is there any country that's so determined to be the winner or #1 in non-sports endeavors as the US?
posted by FJT at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think their anxiety and insecurity is more fueled a lot more by xenophobia and racism than given credit. They see hard working immigrants and their children go to college, and instead of accepting it as society being better in general and everyone gaining from folks working and being educated, they see the jobs they deserve and the education their children have the right to stolen. Instead of seeing the labor and production contributing to the world economy in China and India as a net good, they only see foreigners cheating and keep looking nervously at the rankings to make sure America is #1.
You know, I'm spitballing, but maybe a lot of the people who switched from Obama to Trump this time just simply voted for who they saw could make America be #1, and it's of secondary (or lower) concern whether other people are better or worse off. Is there any country that's so determined to be the winner or #1 in non-sports endeavors as the US?
posted by FJT at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The election was so bad Facebook thinks everyone is dead
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Now he's up for Obamacare to be "amended," which is what everyone, even Clinton and Sanders wanted all along.
no, the GOP wants to / now will kill the added taxes on the rich the Dems got inserted into PPACA.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
no, the GOP wants to / now will kill the added taxes on the rich the Dems got inserted into PPACA.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
zachlipton: "He really has no spine."
He's the typical bully: all tough talk when in front of a crowd and instantly meek and conceding when face to face with someone with a backbone. Unless it is something that he actually cares about, which is just about nothing when it comes to the country itself, he'll just do whatever he's advised. And he's got some nasty folks advising him. The Trump administration is going be the /b/ of American history - completely random and repeatedly vile.
posted by charred husk at 12:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
He's the typical bully: all tough talk when in front of a crowd and instantly meek and conceding when face to face with someone with a backbone. Unless it is something that he actually cares about, which is just about nothing when it comes to the country itself, he'll just do whatever he's advised. And he's got some nasty folks advising him. The Trump administration is going be the /b/ of American history - completely random and repeatedly vile.
posted by charred husk at 12:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
We don't really have replacements for a lot of the jobs that used to be in the manufacturing sector, for example.
It's even deeper than that. We don't, culturally, have the same understanding of employment. When's the last time you can even remember someone working for the same company for thirty years and getting a gold watch when they leave or whatever? When's the last time you remember somebody not working in government getting a company-funded pension?
And because of a lot of complicated reasons, the costs of things have all gone up significantly. Childcare, for example, is enormously more expensive than it was thirty or forty years ago. How many people can afford those middle-class 2.5 kids?
posted by corb at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's even deeper than that. We don't, culturally, have the same understanding of employment. When's the last time you can even remember someone working for the same company for thirty years and getting a gold watch when they leave or whatever? When's the last time you remember somebody not working in government getting a company-funded pension?
And because of a lot of complicated reasons, the costs of things have all gone up significantly. Childcare, for example, is enormously more expensive than it was thirty or forty years ago. How many people can afford those middle-class 2.5 kids?
posted by corb at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Donald Trump states at his website, “On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare.” If by Obamacare Trump means the Affordable Care Act in its entirety, this will not happen. First, any repeal proposal would be subject to a filibuster in the Senate and the Democrats retain more than enough votes to stop a repeal bill. Second, the Affordable Care Act contains hundreds of provisions affecting Medicare, program integrity, the health care workforce, biosimilars, prevention, and other issues unrelated to what most Americans think of as “Obamacare.” Immediate repeal of the ACA and presumably restoring the law that preceded it would likely bring the Medicare program, for example, to a halt until new rules could be written. The ACA is inextricably interwoven into our health care system and is not going away immediately.
posted by latkes at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 1:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh well, this is all so terrible that I'm starting to find it funny in a very dark way.
Yeah my dark humor button has been turned on so you're not the only one.
posted by Jalliah at 1:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah my dark humor button has been turned on so you're not the only one.
posted by Jalliah at 1:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
We don't, culturally, have the same understanding of employment. When's the last time you can even remember someone working for the same company for thirty years and getting a gold watch when they leave or whatever? When's the last time you remember somebody not working in government getting a company-funded pension?
These things aren't cultural at all. They're a result of pubic policies, implemented by politicians.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
These things aren't cultural at all. They're a result of pubic policies, implemented by politicians.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
By the way, be wary of every analysis that has been posted about how Clinton lost support among X demographic and turnout was down blah blah blah until the votes are counted. It looks to me like she'll get almost as many votes as Obama did in 2012.
No quite as many so there is room for improvement there, but almost.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
No quite as many so there is room for improvement there, but almost.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
FJT: Is there any country that's so determined to be the winner or #1 in non-sports endeavors as the US?
I remember my first road trip into the U.S., and there was a national dog show on the radio. I thought to myself, "Damn, these people compete to prove who's the best in everything."
posted by clawsoon at 1:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I remember my first road trip into the U.S., and there was a national dog show on the radio. I thought to myself, "Damn, these people compete to prove who's the best in everything."
posted by clawsoon at 1:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ten other states have passed such a law.
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Republicans will try to remove taxes on the Cadillac plans and medical devices because there are important donors that want them gone.
It's not even clear that Republicans in their current state will even try to touch the really popular aspects of ACA because people really like them.
Ryan would be an absolute idiot to attack Medicare. AARP and just about every senior would be up in arms because Medicare is absolutely essential for them and the Boomers are all beginning to transition to Medicare and for the most part they like it.
Fucking with the security of Boomers is a losing strategy. If they were going to make progress on yhat the Bush administration was the opportunity but tax cuts and wars were more popular
posted by vuron at 1:06 PM on November 11, 2016
It's not even clear that Republicans in their current state will even try to touch the really popular aspects of ACA because people really like them.
Ryan would be an absolute idiot to attack Medicare. AARP and just about every senior would be up in arms because Medicare is absolutely essential for them and the Boomers are all beginning to transition to Medicare and for the most part they like it.
Fucking with the security of Boomers is a losing strategy. If they were going to make progress on yhat the Bush administration was the opportunity but tax cuts and wars were more popular
posted by vuron at 1:06 PM on November 11, 2016
Mod note: A few comments removed. We've seen the Maryland Electoral College thing already, it's from 9 years ago.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just half-saw a post saying Newt Gingrich is asking to reinstate the HUAC? It wasn't a news source I recognized. Is that real or outragefilter?
posted by Mchelly at 1:09 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Mchelly at 1:09 PM on November 11, 2016
The thing about "grandfather in everyone over 55 and rely on the under-55s to go along with 'blah blah we can't afford Medicare anymore" - could that work? I mean, IME everyone who is over forty is going to freak the fuck out even if they can totally buy off everyone over 55. In my twenties, I might have been suckered by that one, but not once I started being a wage-earning person who was having to think about lifetime financial stuff.
posted by Frowner at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I haven't seen the story but I guarantee it is outragefilter.
posted by Justinian at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Justinian at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016
It just struck me that if Russia really did interfere in this election to install a far-right, pro-Moscow authoritarian, that is some remarkably poetic justice* for the shit America pulled in Chile, Nicaragua, and elsewhere.
*not for anyone who actually deserves it of course
posted by theodolite at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
*not for anyone who actually deserves it of course
posted by theodolite at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just half-saw a post saying Newt Gingrich is asking to reinstate the HUAC? It wasn't a news source I recognized. Is that real or outragefilter?
Real, but old news. He of course won't be held to account for it.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Real, but old news. He of course won't be held to account for it.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The thing about "grandfather in everyone over 55 and rely on the under-55s to go along with 'blah blah we can't afford Medicare anymore" - could that work? I mean, IME everyone who is over forty is going to freak the fuck out even if they can totally buy off everyone over 55. In my twenties, I might have been suckered by that one, but not once I started being a wage-earning person who was having to think about lifetime financial stuff.
It will go over gangbusters with the 'fuck you, I've got mine' set so I figure it will happen.
posted by winna at 1:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It will go over gangbusters with the 'fuck you, I've got mine' set so I figure it will happen.
posted by winna at 1:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I... can't believe that is real (but old) about HUAC. I'm going back to sleep for 4 years. Goodbye.
posted by Justinian at 1:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 1:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know - surely "everyone OVER 55 gets Medicare, everyone UNDER 55 gets an empty aspirin bottle" isn't a new tactic. Surely it has been tried before?
Again, I'm not saying that things aren't bad and people aren't terrible - just that if any rule of law stuff still applies, it will prove difficult to dismantle a popular, successful, universal program.
posted by Frowner at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2016
Again, I'm not saying that things aren't bad and people aren't terrible - just that if any rule of law stuff still applies, it will prove difficult to dismantle a popular, successful, universal program.
posted by Frowner at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2016
A popular program that helps only low-income people, yeah, they'd dismantle that in a hot minute, of course, but Social Security and Medicare cover everyone, even though some need them more than others.
posted by Frowner at 1:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 1:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
yeah the individual mandate and pre-existing condition thing go hand-in-hand. he's not in a fucking candy shop, where he can pick out the things that are shiniest.
I wonder when the markets are going to freak out. Krugman wrote today that he didn't think there would be an immediate freak out and would write more about that later in the week. I don't get it, although what I don't get about the stupid market could reach to the moon.
posted by angrycat at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder when the markets are going to freak out. Krugman wrote today that he didn't think there would be an immediate freak out and would write more about that later in the week. I don't get it, although what I don't get about the stupid market could reach to the moon.
posted by angrycat at 1:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The AARP does a lot to manage the voting bloc of older people so if the AARP approved it, a lot of older people would mobilize to support it. People who aren't plugged into that network might not really understand it or care until it was too late.
posted by winna at 1:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by winna at 1:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
i'm going home at 5pm. i'm going to curl up in a fetal position inside a blanket fort i'm going to build on my couch. i may or may not come out for sustenance.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't know - surely "everyone OVER 55 gets Medicare, everyone UNDER 55 gets an empty aspirin bottle" isn't a new tactic. Surely it has been tried before?
It will be lower than 55 and will be dressed up as "Medicare, but with costs limited such that it doesn't provide any actual health care" so it looks better than it is. I think the past decade or two has proven just how far boomers (not all boomers, yes yes) are willing to go to screw over millennials to avoid having to do anything about problems themselves. Just look at Ryan's Social Security plan, climate change, college tuition, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 1:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It will be lower than 55 and will be dressed up as "Medicare, but with costs limited such that it doesn't provide any actual health care" so it looks better than it is. I think the past decade or two has proven just how far boomers (not all boomers, yes yes) are willing to go to screw over millennials to avoid having to do anything about problems themselves. Just look at Ryan's Social Security plan, climate change, college tuition, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 1:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Why Trump Probably Can’t Bring Back Coal (Or Kill Renewables, Either)
“Big picture, I would imagine the U.S. is slower to phase out coal than a president who would have retained the Clean Power Plan,” Sivaram saysposted by tonycpsu at 1:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Still, Sivaram doubts coal will make the comeback many in that industry are hoping for because of competition from cheaper natural gas.
“I think coal power is not coming back in this country regardless of what regulatory changes a President Trump is going to make. Economically, it is no longer as competitive as it used to be.”
After seventy years of American efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, Trump has suggested that South Korea and Japan might be wise to develop them. Returning from a recent visit to Seoul, Scott Sagan, a political-science professor at Stanford who is a nuclear-arms specialist, told me, “These kinds of statements are having an effect. A number of political leaders, mostly from the very conservative sides of the parties, are openly calling for nuclear weapons.”
posted by jeffburdges at 1:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The AARP does a lot to manage the voting bloc of older people so if the AARP approved it, a lot of older people would mobilize to support it. People who aren't plugged into that network might not really understand it or care until it was too late.
Yabbut the AARP wants to go on being the AARP, and that means being able to sell advertising, etc. Without Medicare, far more retirees will be poorer - maybe not this year or next year, but when those 54-at-the-death-of-Medicare people hit retirement, they won't be going on any cruises. Medicare and SS are part of what make the retiree demographic powerful; I'm not entirely sure that the AARP would throw away their longer-term future as an org in this manner.
posted by Frowner at 1:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yabbut the AARP wants to go on being the AARP, and that means being able to sell advertising, etc. Without Medicare, far more retirees will be poorer - maybe not this year or next year, but when those 54-at-the-death-of-Medicare people hit retirement, they won't be going on any cruises. Medicare and SS are part of what make the retiree demographic powerful; I'm not entirely sure that the AARP would throw away their longer-term future as an org in this manner.
posted by Frowner at 1:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is there any country that's so determined to be the winner or #1 in non-sports endeavors as the US?
I had a similar thought. What Trump voters seem to want is not so much for things to get better, but for everybody else to be worse off. They want to be on top, to dominate, to feel the rush of power. Again, fascism.
posted by dmh at 1:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I had a similar thought. What Trump voters seem to want is not so much for things to get better, but for everybody else to be worse off. They want to be on top, to dominate, to feel the rush of power. Again, fascism.
posted by dmh at 1:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
After seventy years of American efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, Trump has suggested that South Korea and Japan might be wise to develop them. Returning from a recent visit to Seoul, Scott Sagan, a political-science professor at Stanford who is a nuclear-arms specialist, told me, “These kinds of statements are having an effect. A number of political leaders, mostly from the very conservative sides of the parties, are openly calling for nuclear weapons.”
Japan. Developing. Nuclear Weapons. What.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Japan. Developing. Nuclear Weapons. What.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That is true but every other organization appears eager to throw away their long-term future for short-term results. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by winna at 1:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by winna at 1:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Donald Trump Doesn't Like This Any More Than You Do
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
posted by Fleebnork at 1:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
posted by Fleebnork at 1:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
*Close up on heaven, beginning Nov. 2 through Nov. 8.*
St. Peter: Things look very busy in America this week.
GOD: Yeah? Hold my beer and watch this…
Not to prod on the Bernie Sanders topic. But really, we don’t need Bernie Sanders whether he would have won or not (and I’m of the opinion he would have). Bernie Sanders is 75 years old. What we need are young people who emulate his positions RUNNING FOR OFFICE.
This “you have to vote” stuff, well yeah. It kills me there are people who don’t vote. People quite literally died for that right. Not just veterans, Jimmie Lee Jackson, Viola Gregg Liuzzo, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner
and Martin Luther King, Jr., it’s not just a duty, it’s a debt.
But it’s not enough. I can’t remember how many uncontested boxes I saw on the ballot but it was too many. You have to be the candidate you wish to see.
Can’t run? System is exclusive? Start there. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step out your door.
Got some social strikes against you? Take refuge in audacity. Look at Barney Frank or Fred Karger. Or Jesse Ventura (regardless of his politics, the man is a member of a one-percenter motorcycle gang. Granted, that’s a big plus for someone like me, any politics aside, but most folks get a little weirded out by it)
Don’t let words get in the way of actually doing something.
"Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must undertake to support it."
- Thomas Paine
(Or more recently -"You always know the mark of a coward. coward hides behind freedom. A brave person stands in front of freedom and defends it for others." - Henry Rollins)
(Hell, I’m thinking of running for office and I’m a fucking bastard with a filthy past. I’m only 48.9% motherfucker tho’. So maybe I can do some fundraisers)
“I'm representing him the way Peanuts represents adults. Off screen and via nothing but muted sad trombone sounds.”
Much the way he will apparently be representing himself in terms of press access.
“I've seen some online suggesting for the Democrats to drop gun control”
Y’know, I hate to address this because I know it’s a live wire, especially with my nickname attached to it. But it's relevant to how things are going to be going in the new administration and…I actually don’t want Democrats to drop gun control.
I’d like to see less rhetorical attachment to it, sure. And that's hard to do, I know, because so much of the pseudo-pro-gun folks (NRA lobby, jerkoff dilettantes, etc.) are so rhetorically provocative.
But consider – why would a wealthy person be pro-gun? Why give a commoner the power to take your life (well, less so with handguns, but still…) when the aristocratic class throughout history and throughout the world (samurai vs. peasantry; the eventual sword hunt from the samurai in 1588) controlled commoners use of weapons (certainly levies demanding they purchase arms and armor for national defense).
Ach, I digress. But take it as read that weapon control laws were/are designed for controlling segments of the population and suppression of elements of the population (General Laney comes to mind, malicious prosecution against black folks, zero against whites for the same practices.).
But the fact stands that one disgruntled nut with a rifle can change your relationship with your whole portfolio no matter how much money you have.
So, essentially, the “principle” and “right” stuff aside (it's a smokescreen to them), it’s done to make security a commodity.
And it’s fought over – if you look at the pattern, and are not distracted by the subject itself – in the same way health care (and prescription drugs) is. Or education. And so forth.
The “autonomy” for the weapon holder is a complete scam. If you can hire the Pinkertons, why do you, yourself, need a pistol (there, Rosie O’Donnell). Well, you’d support gun ownership, in an extreme and unrealistic way, if you were interested in reducing services through the (larger) illusion of (social) security that comes with owning a firearm. Useful idiots and ideologues (and those who genuinely adhere to principle) aside.
That “freedom” is in the same way school vouchers gives you “freedom.” Same deal with health care “freedom.”
The “freedom” there is not to resist/prevent personal attack (sexual assault, home invasions, etc) but rather to place the responsibility on you as an individual to prevent barbarism instead of having competent police.
The difference is in being expected to have learned self-defense and being shamed for not doing it vs. having augmented defensive capability as an option to further empower you *in addition* to systemic resources.
Isn’t that the perfect Donald Trump position? Shaming someone because they've been drained of options? (And then charging them of course)
We should think, in the coming administration, about gun control in those terms - police protection is a right for all citizens while personal firearms (while great for resisting a personal attack, IMHO, if not in fact, which can be debated elsewhere) are terrible as a measure for collective security.
(In the same way a privatized water department - demonstrably, e.g. Flint, Michigan - is shite for a water supply)
It becomes obvious when you consider that not only does less police and more personal emphasis on protection mean less taxes (which are then funneled to private interests) it makes the difference between someone who lives in a “nice” neighborhood and a “bad” one that much more differentiated.
And I think that’s where the breakdown is. And I think it’s purposeful.
The fight is over “security” as an exclusionary concept that can be bought and sold.
It’s a bait and switch to create an artificial problem (lack of security) for people to exploit to make money off of.
Indeed, look at the NRA roots (training programs, safety programs, etc) vs. the NRA as lobbying organization (pretty much all of it now).
It’s all equipment focused.
Same as grants to police, and consumer sales. Millions for equipment, not one cent for training. And same irresponsible outcomes – go spend hundreds of hours training and burning through rounds, or, mount some fake suppressors, recoil pads, pouches, storage stock and endless geegaws, and see which makes you a safer, better shooter.
And think about which they're pushing. Well, you can't make a buck for corporate pushing responsibility and hard work, no?
The Democrats need to stop gun control in the same way they need to stop the drug war.
Of course, now Trump is going to “empower” law abiding gun owners to “defend” themselves. So expect a drastic drop in police services (for citizenry I mean, there will be more funding for immigration enforcement, civil conflicts over “sanctuary cities” (Chicago is one - and of course commensurate reduction in federal funds to sanctuary cities from SCAP), more “domestic counterterrorism” of the “let’s just kill Fred Hampton” variety, and much less transparency (such that stop and frisk, torture, will probably be unwritten policy since it’s illegal/unconstitutional), and of course the kind of interdepartmental internecine conflict that’ll make Bush’s presidency look like the reign of Marcus Aurelius), more privatization, incarceration, etc. We've seen this before.
For this administration, a good response to “I have a right to a gun” is “Well, I support the police.” or "police training" etc.
It’s the verbal equivalent of the sacrifice throw.
And again, being involved, fixing the system, being in office, being organized, won't hurt.
Life without overwatch is a motherfucker. And yeah, I get into arguments here, but I wouldn’t be here myself if we didn’t share a lot of the same values. I’m a straight, gun owning, terrorist stomping, meat eating American veteran.
Don’t believe the bullshit from the buy-meat-in-a-store half-assed rehtorical wannabe tough guy bullies saying that you’re alone. You're not alone. Plenty of people at your back. And I’m one of them.
"They publicly denounced him. Now NeverTrumpers want jobs in his White House”
He’s an orange monkey man. It’s a monolithic organization of self-interested ass kissing sycophants. They fight crime!
“I continue to believe there is hope, and work to be done, and I'll continue in the struggle for peace and for justice.”
"I'll see peace back on earth if I gotta murder every one of these bastards with my bare goddamn hands." - Bill
posted by Smedleyman at 1:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
St. Peter: Things look very busy in America this week.
GOD: Yeah? Hold my beer and watch this…
Not to prod on the Bernie Sanders topic. But really, we don’t need Bernie Sanders whether he would have won or not (and I’m of the opinion he would have). Bernie Sanders is 75 years old. What we need are young people who emulate his positions RUNNING FOR OFFICE.
This “you have to vote” stuff, well yeah. It kills me there are people who don’t vote. People quite literally died for that right. Not just veterans, Jimmie Lee Jackson, Viola Gregg Liuzzo, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner
and Martin Luther King, Jr., it’s not just a duty, it’s a debt.
But it’s not enough. I can’t remember how many uncontested boxes I saw on the ballot but it was too many. You have to be the candidate you wish to see.
Can’t run? System is exclusive? Start there. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step out your door.
Got some social strikes against you? Take refuge in audacity. Look at Barney Frank or Fred Karger. Or Jesse Ventura (regardless of his politics, the man is a member of a one-percenter motorcycle gang. Granted, that’s a big plus for someone like me, any politics aside, but most folks get a little weirded out by it)
Don’t let words get in the way of actually doing something.
"Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must undertake to support it."
- Thomas Paine
(Or more recently -"You always know the mark of a coward. coward hides behind freedom. A brave person stands in front of freedom and defends it for others." - Henry Rollins)
(Hell, I’m thinking of running for office and I’m a fucking bastard with a filthy past. I’m only 48.9% motherfucker tho’. So maybe I can do some fundraisers)
“I'm representing him the way Peanuts represents adults. Off screen and via nothing but muted sad trombone sounds.”
Much the way he will apparently be representing himself in terms of press access.
“I've seen some online suggesting for the Democrats to drop gun control”
Y’know, I hate to address this because I know it’s a live wire, especially with my nickname attached to it. But it's relevant to how things are going to be going in the new administration and…I actually don’t want Democrats to drop gun control.
I’d like to see less rhetorical attachment to it, sure. And that's hard to do, I know, because so much of the pseudo-pro-gun folks (NRA lobby, jerkoff dilettantes, etc.) are so rhetorically provocative.
But consider – why would a wealthy person be pro-gun? Why give a commoner the power to take your life (well, less so with handguns, but still…) when the aristocratic class throughout history and throughout the world (samurai vs. peasantry; the eventual sword hunt from the samurai in 1588) controlled commoners use of weapons (certainly levies demanding they purchase arms and armor for national defense).
Ach, I digress. But take it as read that weapon control laws were/are designed for controlling segments of the population and suppression of elements of the population (General Laney comes to mind, malicious prosecution against black folks, zero against whites for the same practices.).
But the fact stands that one disgruntled nut with a rifle can change your relationship with your whole portfolio no matter how much money you have.
So, essentially, the “principle” and “right” stuff aside (it's a smokescreen to them), it’s done to make security a commodity.
And it’s fought over – if you look at the pattern, and are not distracted by the subject itself – in the same way health care (and prescription drugs) is. Or education. And so forth.
The “autonomy” for the weapon holder is a complete scam. If you can hire the Pinkertons, why do you, yourself, need a pistol (there, Rosie O’Donnell). Well, you’d support gun ownership, in an extreme and unrealistic way, if you were interested in reducing services through the (larger) illusion of (social) security that comes with owning a firearm. Useful idiots and ideologues (and those who genuinely adhere to principle) aside.
That “freedom” is in the same way school vouchers gives you “freedom.” Same deal with health care “freedom.”
The “freedom” there is not to resist/prevent personal attack (sexual assault, home invasions, etc) but rather to place the responsibility on you as an individual to prevent barbarism instead of having competent police.
The difference is in being expected to have learned self-defense and being shamed for not doing it vs. having augmented defensive capability as an option to further empower you *in addition* to systemic resources.
Isn’t that the perfect Donald Trump position? Shaming someone because they've been drained of options? (And then charging them of course)
We should think, in the coming administration, about gun control in those terms - police protection is a right for all citizens while personal firearms (while great for resisting a personal attack, IMHO, if not in fact, which can be debated elsewhere) are terrible as a measure for collective security.
(In the same way a privatized water department - demonstrably, e.g. Flint, Michigan - is shite for a water supply)
It becomes obvious when you consider that not only does less police and more personal emphasis on protection mean less taxes (which are then funneled to private interests) it makes the difference between someone who lives in a “nice” neighborhood and a “bad” one that much more differentiated.
And I think that’s where the breakdown is. And I think it’s purposeful.
The fight is over “security” as an exclusionary concept that can be bought and sold.
It’s a bait and switch to create an artificial problem (lack of security) for people to exploit to make money off of.
Indeed, look at the NRA roots (training programs, safety programs, etc) vs. the NRA as lobbying organization (pretty much all of it now).
It’s all equipment focused.
Same as grants to police, and consumer sales. Millions for equipment, not one cent for training. And same irresponsible outcomes – go spend hundreds of hours training and burning through rounds, or, mount some fake suppressors, recoil pads, pouches, storage stock and endless geegaws, and see which makes you a safer, better shooter.
And think about which they're pushing. Well, you can't make a buck for corporate pushing responsibility and hard work, no?
The Democrats need to stop gun control in the same way they need to stop the drug war.
Of course, now Trump is going to “empower” law abiding gun owners to “defend” themselves. So expect a drastic drop in police services (for citizenry I mean, there will be more funding for immigration enforcement, civil conflicts over “sanctuary cities” (Chicago is one - and of course commensurate reduction in federal funds to sanctuary cities from SCAP), more “domestic counterterrorism” of the “let’s just kill Fred Hampton” variety, and much less transparency (such that stop and frisk, torture, will probably be unwritten policy since it’s illegal/unconstitutional), and of course the kind of interdepartmental internecine conflict that’ll make Bush’s presidency look like the reign of Marcus Aurelius), more privatization, incarceration, etc. We've seen this before.
For this administration, a good response to “I have a right to a gun” is “Well, I support the police.” or "police training" etc.
It’s the verbal equivalent of the sacrifice throw.
And again, being involved, fixing the system, being in office, being organized, won't hurt.
Life without overwatch is a motherfucker. And yeah, I get into arguments here, but I wouldn’t be here myself if we didn’t share a lot of the same values. I’m a straight, gun owning, terrorist stomping, meat eating American veteran.
Don’t believe the bullshit from the buy-meat-in-a-store half-assed rehtorical wannabe tough guy bullies saying that you’re alone. You're not alone. Plenty of people at your back. And I’m one of them.
"They publicly denounced him. Now NeverTrumpers want jobs in his White House”
He’s an orange monkey man. It’s a monolithic organization of self-interested ass kissing sycophants. They fight crime!
“I continue to believe there is hope, and work to be done, and I'll continue in the struggle for peace and for justice.”
"I'll see peace back on earth if I gotta murder every one of these bastards with my bare goddamn hands." - Bill
posted by Smedleyman at 1:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
Well every time Dubya got bored he skived off to his ranch, so I guess that is a hope.
posted by winna at 1:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well every time Dubya got bored he skived off to his ranch, so I guess that is a hope.
posted by winna at 1:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Fleebnork: That article is total BS. Trump is going to love every second of it. He's just wearing a serious face for those photo ops.
posted by Coventry at 1:30 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:30 PM on November 11, 2016
Oh, I think he likes the spotlight right now. But I'm talking about the actual work. The sitting in meetings all day, reading briefs and reports, WORK part of the job.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
Nixon resigned. There's historical precedent. Not holding out much hope, though, because that will still just give us Pence, who's not measurably an improvement by most standards.
posted by Archelaus at 1:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nixon resigned. There's historical precedent. Not holding out much hope, though, because that will still just give us Pence, who's not measurably an improvement by most standards.
posted by Archelaus at 1:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I can’t remember how many uncontested boxes I saw on the ballot but it was too many. You have to be the candidate you wish to see.A good place to start is to become the representative of your precinct to the local Democratic Party. Those positions often run completely uncontested, in which case all you have to do is vote for yourself and you're in.
posted by Coventry at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
My problem with the argument about economic insecurity or worry among working class/middle class voters for Trump is simply that they voted for Trump. He didn't have any reasonable plan at all, Clinton had plans to help the economy and they ignored them for empty words, the biggest best empty words maybe, but still empty.
A moral politician, which is, I assume, who we'd want to elect, can't and won't offer empty promises, they'll offer some proposal or another which won't sound as exciting as flat out lies. So the even vaguely moral politician is always at a disadvantage against an amoral or immoral one because they are actively trying to help but people won't pay as much attention to them, usually don't look into details and work to understand them, and listen to others who will lie to them about all of the above. Voting on emotion, even if you blind yourself to what that emotion is actually based on, makes elections about "feelings" about those running, how they look, the words they use and how "powerful" or "strong" they seem.
Getting into the game of going that route leads to strongmen, and is, need I mention, rigged against a huge part of the nation getting direct representation for their closest peer groups. When Democrats run "stronger" appearing candidates then the Republicans do in presidential elections, they've done well. But most of the time the Republican has been the one to win those voting on feelings about power because they do often misrepresent their positions or flat out lie and they aren't trying to represent all groups. Beating that isn't about the nuances of policy, it's about ignorance willful or otherwise over most details and valuing the perception of strength as the most important "skill" a politician can have, regardless of actual ability in any area.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
A moral politician, which is, I assume, who we'd want to elect, can't and won't offer empty promises, they'll offer some proposal or another which won't sound as exciting as flat out lies. So the even vaguely moral politician is always at a disadvantage against an amoral or immoral one because they are actively trying to help but people won't pay as much attention to them, usually don't look into details and work to understand them, and listen to others who will lie to them about all of the above. Voting on emotion, even if you blind yourself to what that emotion is actually based on, makes elections about "feelings" about those running, how they look, the words they use and how "powerful" or "strong" they seem.
Getting into the game of going that route leads to strongmen, and is, need I mention, rigged against a huge part of the nation getting direct representation for their closest peer groups. When Democrats run "stronger" appearing candidates then the Republicans do in presidential elections, they've done well. But most of the time the Republican has been the one to win those voting on feelings about power because they do often misrepresent their positions or flat out lie and they aren't trying to represent all groups. Beating that isn't about the nuances of policy, it's about ignorance willful or otherwise over most details and valuing the perception of strength as the most important "skill" a politician can have, regardless of actual ability in any area.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Gun control is such a pipe dream right now that it's not even worth discussing. With Trump SCOTUS picks subject to NRA veto, it's unlikely that most of the existing municipal restrictions can survive.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
tonycpsu: "Why Trump Probably Can’t Bring Back Coal"
Whenever this subject comes up my wife likes to put on her geologist cap and explain that for the coal that is left, the rock is all like this [tilts hand at a 45 degree angle] and it is super expensive to mine. She had a nice geological trip out Kentucky helping with a friend's thesis on the subject. Coal's not coming back without a subsidy because what's there isn't worth the cost.
Honestly, if you're going to spend that money, hire the out-of-work miners to begin industrial cleanup operations on the old mines.
posted by charred husk at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Whenever this subject comes up my wife likes to put on her geologist cap and explain that for the coal that is left, the rock is all like this [tilts hand at a 45 degree angle] and it is super expensive to mine. She had a nice geological trip out Kentucky helping with a friend's thesis on the subject. Coal's not coming back without a subsidy because what's there isn't worth the cost.
Honestly, if you're going to spend that money, hire the out-of-work miners to begin industrial cleanup operations on the old mines.
posted by charred husk at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
I've also wondered how long it's going to take to realize this job is not fun and to peace out. I mean, he could claim a health emergency or whatever, hand the reigns to Pence and go smug it up from Mar-a-Lago. He'd get all the glory of having done the thing and none of the blowback of any of his chickens coming home to roost on him personally. Pence is just as horrifying, if not more, so this is not a scenario I am hoping for, but I do think it's kind of likely.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Oh, I think he likes the spotlight right now. But I'm talking about the actual work. The sitting in meetings all day, reading briefs and reports, WORK part of the job.
There's no requirement he do any of those things. If he wants to spend three minutes in the morning with an NSC staffer telling him "America is safe again," three minutes yelling at a contractor about how they won't get paid for building part of the wall because he doesn't like the kind of concrete they used, and three minutes of yelling at the head of ICE to deport more people, followed by a day of watching CNN and attacking reporters on Twitter, he's free to do so.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's no requirement he do any of those things. If he wants to spend three minutes in the morning with an NSC staffer telling him "America is safe again," three minutes yelling at a contractor about how they won't get paid for building part of the wall because he doesn't like the kind of concrete they used, and three minutes of yelling at the head of ICE to deport more people, followed by a day of watching CNN and attacking reporters on Twitter, he's free to do so.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yeah, that's what I meant overall, soren_lorensen. Not saying Pence is what we want either, just that I've been expecting Trump to just wander off and not follow through.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:36 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Fleebnork at 1:36 PM on November 11, 2016
New Yorker : In “Trump: Think Like a Billionaire” (2004), Trump wrote that others “are surprised by how quickly I make big decisions, but I’ve learned to trust my instincts and not to overthink things.” He added, “The day I realized it can be smart to be shallow was, for me, a deep experience.” He prides himself on vengeance and suspicion. “If you do not get even, you are just a schmuck!” he wrote, in 2007. “Be paranoid,” he said in 2000.
I'm cautiously hopeful that Trump does "seek revenge" against the Clintons, Obama, and other powerful Democrats because that sound like the only way the Democrats will get weened off expanding executive power via the NSA surveillance, CIA and FBI operations, etc.
Another few dozen or hundred Comey style attacks, questionable legal investigations, or even prosecutions, etc. then maybe just maybe the Democrats will decide to hobble the FBI, etc. All that stuff gets used against activists regularly, but maybe if they target important Democrats then opinions will shift.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm cautiously hopeful that Trump does "seek revenge" against the Clintons, Obama, and other powerful Democrats because that sound like the only way the Democrats will get weened off expanding executive power via the NSA surveillance, CIA and FBI operations, etc.
Another few dozen or hundred Comey style attacks, questionable legal investigations, or even prosecutions, etc. then maybe just maybe the Democrats will decide to hobble the FBI, etc. All that stuff gets used against activists regularly, but maybe if they target important Democrats then opinions will shift.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
...but people won't pay as much attention to them, usually don't look into details and work to understand them, and listen to others who will lie to them about all of the above.
Hence Brexit. And the issue is confounded because people who vote feeling over fact will enact herculean degrees of logic-wrangling to justify that stance after the effect, even when facts can no longer be avoided, in order to avoid 'feeling' like they were hoodwinked.
posted by freya_lamb at 1:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hence Brexit. And the issue is confounded because people who vote feeling over fact will enact herculean degrees of logic-wrangling to justify that stance after the effect, even when facts can no longer be avoided, in order to avoid 'feeling' like they were hoodwinked.
posted by freya_lamb at 1:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The last time a Republican that won the election while losing the popular vote took office (but I repeat myself; it was also the last Republican that took office), every level of the incoming administration blew off the warnings about terrorism from their counterparts in the outgoing Democratic administration. The 9/11 attacks happened eight months later.
The Republican candidate has won the popular vote once since 1988.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Republican candidate has won the popular vote once since 1988.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just started working @ Penn too. It's my first real step towards the path I want for my life and it's been a mixed bag. Some of my new co-workers have held support meetings which have been super helpful. I also found out the chair voted for Trump. I am so sad, I was happy to start here and now I feel conflicted.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you thought Glenn Beck's alleged change of heart meant anything, sorry.
posted by zachlipton at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
What are the chances the Pence will get along with the rest of his cabinet, though? The best we can hope for is a lot of infighting.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:41 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by dinty_moore at 1:41 PM on November 11, 2016
As long as Trump retains the title President, I don't think it'll ever be any single other figure to "really" run the country, it'll be whoever has his favor for the moment, just like during his campaign. I'm sure he'll let Pence do some things without paying much attention, but someone will tweet something about Pence or Pence will say something Trump doesn't like and Chris Christie will be running the show, or any of his other sycophants, I only expect his family to maintain a consistent personal connection with him throughout his term, so they'll get what they want and veto anything they don't, so I'm guessing a President by committee is what will actually go on, with Ivanka's husband doing a lot of the leg work on family interests with Don Jr.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 1:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I mean, aren't these all a bunch of awful stupid egomaniacs? Isn't there probably going to be somebody hitting somebody in the face in a cabinet meeting at one point?
I actually am horrified/fascinated with the idea of working in a Trump White House, kind of like I am oddly fascinated by the experience of the guy who eats himself in that Stephen King story.
posted by angrycat at 1:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I actually am horrified/fascinated with the idea of working in a Trump White House, kind of like I am oddly fascinated by the experience of the guy who eats himself in that Stephen King story.
posted by angrycat at 1:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Donald Trump’s questionable ‘blind trust’ setup just got more questionable
posted by zachlipton at 1:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
McGehee and others have also cast doubt on the idea that the so-called "blind trust" is actually blind at all. She calls it a "one-eye-closed-and-one-eye-open trust."But yes, how about another 2,000 words on conflicts of interest at the Clinton Foundation?
In addition to blurring the line between Trump's presidency and his money, skeptics note that his children will now also have control over the people who will be put in charge of regulatory decisions that could affect his multi-billion-dollar fortune.
posted by zachlipton at 1:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
It's even deeper than that. We don't, culturally, have the same understanding of employment. When's the last time you can even remember someone working for the same company for thirty years and getting a gold watch when they leave or whatever? When's the last time you remember somebody not working in government getting a company-funded pension?
Not disagreeing with you but, just FYI, most federal civil servants don't get a pension. The retirement system was changed for new hires in 1987 to what is, for most practical purposes, a 401K plan. ("Would you like to know more?" Google 'csrs fers'.)
posted by LastOfHisKind at 1:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not disagreeing with you but, just FYI, most federal civil servants don't get a pension. The retirement system was changed for new hires in 1987 to what is, for most practical purposes, a 401K plan. ("Would you like to know more?" Google 'csrs fers'.)
posted by LastOfHisKind at 1:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gun control, has recently been rebranded as sensible gun ownership laws. It's one of those things that's supported by a majority of voters, and even had some partial support from Trump at one point in the campaign.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:55 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:55 PM on November 11, 2016
The idea of the Trump holdings being in a "blind trust" was always blatant bullshit. The idea of a blind trust is that you don't know what assets you own, and can't direct the managers' actions in any way. Trump may not like to read, but he can make out the word "TRUMP" on the side of a building and know it's benefiting him financially.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean, aren't these all a bunch of awful stupid egomaniacs? Isn't there probably going to be somebody hitting somebody in the face in a cabinet meeting at one point?
Like James Garner said in Barbarians at the Gate, "macho bullshit that has everybody slamming their dicks on the table."
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, I want big failure, so America learns a goddamn lesson about electing dumbassess.
On the other hand, lots 'o people die when big failures happen, generally.
Of course success for this group means people dying anyway so maybe it doesn't fucking matter.
posted by emjaybee at 2:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, lots 'o people die when big failures happen, generally.
Of course success for this group means people dying anyway so maybe it doesn't fucking matter.
posted by emjaybee at 2:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just like Nixon, Donald Trump is keeping an 'enemies list.'
"If you've got a black list I want to be on it." Billy Bragg, "Waiting for the Great Leap Forward"
posted by kirkaracha at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I want big failure, so America learns a goddamn lesson about electing dumbassess.Bigger than the Bush presidency? What do you think it would take?
posted by Coventry at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
pxe2000: "Just checking in: this is the wrong time to rewatch Threads, right?"
There will never be a right time to rewatch Threads.
posted by double block and bleed at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
There will never be a right time to rewatch Threads.
posted by double block and bleed at 2:02 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
But that life really isn't as accessible, and I don't think anyone has plans to bring it back.
it's not accessible because those kinds of jobs, jobs with stability and regular promotions and employer-subsidized healthcare plans and robust pensions at the end of a long career, were made possible by strong unions, a word which most republicans hiss in tones that people usually reserve for perpetrators of genocide, and a thing they've worked very hard for many years to dismantle in favour of the earnings of the corporations employing these workers.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
it's not accessible because those kinds of jobs, jobs with stability and regular promotions and employer-subsidized healthcare plans and robust pensions at the end of a long career, were made possible by strong unions, a word which most republicans hiss in tones that people usually reserve for perpetrators of genocide, and a thing they've worked very hard for many years to dismantle in favour of the earnings of the corporations employing these workers.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
I mentioned to my mother on Wednesday that I didn't think Trump would last more than 6 months actually trying to fulfill the duties of the president. She suggested that maybe by late spring we'd be getting live, nightly episodes of "The Apprentice: President for a Day."
posted by jermsplan at 2:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by jermsplan at 2:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wonder if the show Supernatural had any notion that this weeks episode would be so...ah..timely?
Plot line: Nazi Zombies trying to resurrect Hitler
Just another small thing to ad to my own personal 'wtf writers of the 2016' plot line. You had to bring one of my silly ways to escape as well?
posted by Jalliah at 2:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have been musing for a long time that the idea that the President is able to save or ruin the economy by his policies is way overstated in politics. I mean: we blame whoever happens to be holding the bag when a recession comes, we give credit to whoever is lucky to be in office in prosperity, but the actual causes may have started years before, and have taken a long time to come into effect. Hope I'm right!
posted by thelonius at 2:12 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by thelonius at 2:12 PM on November 11, 2016
it's not accessible because those kinds of jobs, jobs with stability and regular promotions and employer-subsidized healthcare plans and robust pensions at the end of a long career, were made possible by strong unions, a word which most republicans hiss in tones that people usually reserve for perpetrators of genocide, and a thing they've worked very hard for many years to dismantle.
Strong unions, along with a post-war economic boom, the GI Bill, and a stronger social safety net. And discrimination that kept women out of technical labor. At least one person got a factory job because my grandmother was no longer qualified when her husband came home.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Strong unions, along with a post-war economic boom, the GI Bill, and a stronger social safety net. And discrimination that kept women out of technical labor. At least one person got a factory job because my grandmother was no longer qualified when her husband came home.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Politico: Obama set to green-light disputed Dakota Access pipeline
posted by zachlipton at 2:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Obama administration is expected to approve the disputed easement for the Dakota Access pipeline as soon as Monday, according to two sources familiar with the timing — dealing a major blow to climate activists even before Donald Trump takes office.Fuck 2016.
The decision would let the pipeline be built across the Missouri River near the Standing Rock Sioux's reservation in North Dakota, where protesters have been camped out for months in one of the largest ongoing environmental standoffs of recent years.
posted by zachlipton at 2:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm very confused about the roles of the un-elected Trump juniors in the action. Are there no constraints around Presidential mandates? How is it possible for him to appoint members of his immediate family to the inner circle? Genuine questions from the baffled Brit over here.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by freya_lamb at 2:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
See that's the kind of thing I think about when people are all "We'll miss Obama!" When it comes to pipelines and TPP and drones, he's a motherfucker and I don't know why, because the rest of the time he's great.
I mean, yeah, better him than Trump, but Jesus Christ Barack, way to kick us when we are fucking down.
posted by emjaybee at 2:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
I mean, yeah, better him than Trump, but Jesus Christ Barack, way to kick us when we are fucking down.
posted by emjaybee at 2:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
I have been musing for a long time that the idea that the President is able to save or ruin the economy by his policies is way overstated in politics. I mean: we blame whoever happens to be holding the bag when a recession comes, we give credit to whoever is lucky to be in office in prosperity, but the actual causes may have started years before, and have taken a long time to come into effect. Hope I'm right!
Except that tax policy has a huge effect on market behavior and on the incentives of companies to grow or shrink, to reinvest profits in capital or to pay them out in dividends and c-level salaries. On the other side, transfer payments in the form of welfare have a major effect on the ability of low income citizens to keep the economy in motion through consumption. Presidents themselves can't make or break the economy, but policy can make a huge difference.
posted by dis_integration at 2:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Except that tax policy has a huge effect on market behavior and on the incentives of companies to grow or shrink, to reinvest profits in capital or to pay them out in dividends and c-level salaries. On the other side, transfer payments in the form of welfare have a major effect on the ability of low income citizens to keep the economy in motion through consumption. Presidents themselves can't make or break the economy, but policy can make a huge difference.
posted by dis_integration at 2:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, there is that introducing legislation thing, and the Congress will pass whatever tax cut package he sends, as long as it is large enough.
posted by thelonius at 2:24 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by thelonius at 2:24 PM on November 11, 2016
I have no drawing ability, but I wish somebody could render a political cartoon for me:
The Wizard of Oz's scarecrow, tin man, and lion as willing and gleeful Trump supporters; no brain, no heart, no courage. Trump as an ordinary man with no special powers, hiding behind a curtain projecting a grotesque hologram of himself.
Maybe Hillary is Dorothy, trying to lead them to reason; or perhaps she is in full shock, having had her house uprooted by a hurricane. Perhaps she is in a blue gingham pantsuit? Or perhaps she doesn't need to be in the scene at all.
Welcome to Oz: I am bewildered and terrified.
posted by Pazzovizza at 2:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Wizard of Oz's scarecrow, tin man, and lion as willing and gleeful Trump supporters; no brain, no heart, no courage. Trump as an ordinary man with no special powers, hiding behind a curtain projecting a grotesque hologram of himself.
Maybe Hillary is Dorothy, trying to lead them to reason; or perhaps she is in full shock, having had her house uprooted by a hurricane. Perhaps she is in a blue gingham pantsuit? Or perhaps she doesn't need to be in the scene at all.
Welcome to Oz: I am bewildered and terrified.
posted by Pazzovizza at 2:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Senate Ds will filibuster any tax cuts for the rich.
posted by Justinian at 2:25 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Justinian at 2:25 PM on November 11, 2016
How is it possible for him to appoint members of his immediate family to the inner circle?
"Inner Circle" and "Transition Team" aren't real, government jobs or anything. When it comes to official jobs like Chief of Staff that draw a paycheck, there is a law banning the President (or any federal public official) from hiring or appointing family members. Also, the highest-level positions are subject to Senate approval.
posted by muddgirl at 2:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Inner Circle" and "Transition Team" aren't real, government jobs or anything. When it comes to official jobs like Chief of Staff that draw a paycheck, there is a law banning the President (or any federal public official) from hiring or appointing family members. Also, the highest-level positions are subject to Senate approval.
posted by muddgirl at 2:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Senate Ds will filibuster any tax cuts for the rich.
*rimshot*
posted by stopgap at 2:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
*rimshot*
posted by stopgap at 2:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
How is it possible for him to appoint members of his immediate family to the inner circle?
it's like pappy o'daniel making the soggy bottom boys his "brain trust" except in this scenario the cross-burning grand kleegle was the winner
posted by poffin boffin at 2:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
it's like pappy o'daniel making the soggy bottom boys his "brain trust" except in this scenario the cross-burning grand kleegle was the winner
posted by poffin boffin at 2:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
The Senate Ds will filibuster any tax cuts for the rich.
I guess one ray of hope here is that Trump is so exceptional that the kind of collaborationist nonsense we got under Bush might be less likely. Then again everybody is already pledging to "work with" our new president. Mitch McConnell didn't pledge to work with Obama, he pledged to destroy him and his presidency, and it looks like he's gonna win.
posted by dis_integration at 2:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess one ray of hope here is that Trump is so exceptional that the kind of collaborationist nonsense we got under Bush might be less likely. Then again everybody is already pledging to "work with" our new president. Mitch McConnell didn't pledge to work with Obama, he pledged to destroy him and his presidency, and it looks like he's gonna win.
posted by dis_integration at 2:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, are we now taking it as an article of faith that the GOP won't nuke the filibuster?
posted by tonycpsu at 2:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 2:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
They might try, but the Dems actually have a strong minority -- at least 48, and maybe 49 if they can swing a miracle in Louisiana -- so it would only take a very small number of Rs thinking of what might happen when they lose the Senate to make the difference. Jeff Flake and Rand Paul are the obvious first targets for that. (Note: I'm not saying their votes against would be anything like a sure thing. But it's possible.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, are we now taking it as an article of faith that the GOP won't nuke the filibuster?
Nuking the filibuster would be awfully shortsighted unless the long game is no elections at all. The opposition party will come to power eventually and then they'll have no way to resist. So I dunno. I know that McConnell, at least, for all his cravenness, is a passionate student and devotee of the Senate qua Senate, who never wanted anything more than to be Majority Leader of the Senate, and to him the filibuster is Sacred and Holy.
posted by dis_integration at 2:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nuking the filibuster would be awfully shortsighted unless the long game is no elections at all. The opposition party will come to power eventually and then they'll have no way to resist. So I dunno. I know that McConnell, at least, for all his cravenness, is a passionate student and devotee of the Senate qua Senate, who never wanted anything more than to be Majority Leader of the Senate, and to him the filibuster is Sacred and Holy.
posted by dis_integration at 2:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nuking the filibuster would be awfully shortsighted unless the long game is no elections at all.
Well, yeah. That's sorta the point. I think there's a fair chance that the GOP is going to see this as their chance to stack as much voter suppression legislation and as many SCOTUS nominations as possible via a removal of the filibuster, on the assumption that they can stack it so much in their favor they could keep power for decades.
The long game is, in fact, no elections -- at least, not fair ones.
posted by tocts at 2:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, yeah. That's sorta the point. I think there's a fair chance that the GOP is going to see this as their chance to stack as much voter suppression legislation and as many SCOTUS nominations as possible via a removal of the filibuster, on the assumption that they can stack it so much in their favor they could keep power for decades.
The long game is, in fact, no elections -- at least, not fair ones.
posted by tocts at 2:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If Donald Trump takes people's anger and turns it against Muslims, Hispanics, African Americans and women, we will be his worst nightmare. - @SenSanders
This. THIS is the problem. "If"? "If" he does?! Where the fuck has this guy been for the past year-and-a-half? He's already done it. The fact that he thinks this is an "if" and follows it up with his I'm-A-Big-Man threats is exactly what's wrong with white progressives.
posted by Anonymous at 2:44 PM on November 11, 2016
This. THIS is the problem. "If"? "If" he does?! Where the fuck has this guy been for the past year-and-a-half? He's already done it. The fact that he thinks this is an "if" and follows it up with his I'm-A-Big-Man threats is exactly what's wrong with white progressives.
posted by Anonymous at 2:44 PM on November 11, 2016
I mean, Sanders can't predict the future. It's wise to at least publicly acknowledge the possibility that Trump could choose a different path. I don't think he will, but if I'm Sanders, I want to use my public rhetoric to maximum effect, and that means signaling to Trump that you acknowledge he could do the right thing if he chose to.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 2:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Trump Moves to Delay Fraud Trial Until He’s President — His lawyers claim he is too busy right now, but he’ll have plenty of time later.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 2:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, are we now taking it as an article of faith that the GOP won't nuke the filibuster?
Still to be seen, but the idea that Senate Democrats would sustain any organized resistance is risible. We've been here before. Look at the Bush years.
posted by stopgap at 2:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Still to be seen, but the idea that Senate Democrats would sustain any organized resistance is risible. We've been here before. Look at the Bush years.
posted by stopgap at 2:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's funny whenever I encounter those people they're gleeful about being racists and general bigots if they think you will be okay with it.
Winna, as so often, has it bang on the fucking nail here.
The feeling of fucking bewilderment when my dad would be perfectly nice with ethnic minorities in their presence and then get in the car and I'd get to hear all the racial slurs.
When you talk about how people should try and gently persuade Trumpists to their point of view, please understand that lots of us - the people who on this very website are avoiding their families despite the pressures to "go home for thanksgiving / Christmas" have been doing this since we were little. Trying to understand. Trying to convince. It doesn't work.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [30 favorites]
Winna, as so often, has it bang on the fucking nail here.
The feeling of fucking bewilderment when my dad would be perfectly nice with ethnic minorities in their presence and then get in the car and I'd get to hear all the racial slurs.
When you talk about how people should try and gently persuade Trumpists to their point of view, please understand that lots of us - the people who on this very website are avoiding their families despite the pressures to "go home for thanksgiving / Christmas" have been doing this since we were little. Trying to understand. Trying to convince. It doesn't work.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [30 favorites]
This. THIS is the problem. "If"? "If" he does?! Where the fuck has this guy been for the past year-and-a-half? He's already done it. The fact that he thinks this is an "if" and follows it up with his I'm-A-Big-Man threats is exactly what's wrong with white progressives.
I typed out a long response but on preview I agree with tonycpsu's comment.
posted by futz at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I typed out a long response but on preview I agree with tonycpsu's comment.
posted by futz at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out what might realistically happen, and I think the most likely scenario is not that they will kill Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security/ACA, but that they will limit access to them. Narrowing of SSI or SSDI eligibility, removal of Medicaid expansion, etc.
I don't know if that's better or worse though.
posted by corb at 2:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know if that's better or worse though.
posted by corb at 2:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean, Sanders can't predict the future. It's wise to at least publicly acknowledge the possibility that Trump could choose a different path. I don't think he will, but if I'm Sanders, I want to use my public rhetoric to maximum effect, and that means signaling to Trump that you acknowledge he could do the right thing if he chose to.
That tweet implicitly states that Trump's use of hate against minority groups hasn't happened yet. If you're a white liberal who's been operating under the impression that he hasn't been stoking that rage already, that it isn't his modus operandi, then you're part of the problem. Especially when paired with threats of retaliation--such threats are empty if it's clear you're unable to identify what you're claiming to fight against when it's actually happening.
posted by Anonymous at 2:59 PM on November 11, 2016
That tweet implicitly states that Trump's use of hate against minority groups hasn't happened yet. If you're a white liberal who's been operating under the impression that he hasn't been stoking that rage already, that it isn't his modus operandi, then you're part of the problem. Especially when paired with threats of retaliation--such threats are empty if it's clear you're unable to identify what you're claiming to fight against when it's actually happening.
posted by Anonymous at 2:59 PM on November 11, 2016
If I'm very lucky we will survive Trump we will restore lost SS and other benefits.
If I'm not, in about 20-25 years it'll be me and a .357 magnum in a field somewhere when my health goes downhill. Because while I don't know if I'll be able to afford medical care and food in my old age, I'm reasonably sure I'll be able to find a goddamn gun. The fun part is that I can either stay alive and bankrupt my kid, or kill myself and traumatize him.
posted by emjaybee at 3:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
If I'm not, in about 20-25 years it'll be me and a .357 magnum in a field somewhere when my health goes downhill. Because while I don't know if I'll be able to afford medical care and food in my old age, I'm reasonably sure I'll be able to find a goddamn gun. The fun part is that I can either stay alive and bankrupt my kid, or kill myself and traumatize him.
posted by emjaybee at 3:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
That tweet implicitly states that Trump's use of hate against minority groups hasn't happened yet.
My interpretation was that he was talking about if Trump takes that anger and uses the power of the state to amplify it. Of course he has stoked white rage against minority groups, and Bernie knows that. The point is that he now has the power to encode that hate into law, and Sanders seems to want to give him the opportunity to step back from the ledge.
I do see how it can be interpreted as letting him off the hook for what he's already done, but Sanders isn't in a position to undo that now. But this isn't a hill I'm going to die on because I agree that what Trump did was reprehensible, and that it should be unambiguously condemned.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
My interpretation was that he was talking about if Trump takes that anger and uses the power of the state to amplify it. Of course he has stoked white rage against minority groups, and Bernie knows that. The point is that he now has the power to encode that hate into law, and Sanders seems to want to give him the opportunity to step back from the ledge.
I do see how it can be interpreted as letting him off the hook for what he's already done, but Sanders isn't in a position to undo that now. But this isn't a hill I'm going to die on because I agree that what Trump did was reprehensible, and that it should be unambiguously condemned.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If I'm very lucky we will survive Trump we will restore lost SS and other benefits.
I'm kind of hoping Trump *doesn't* bring back the SS, but...oh you meant something else.
posted by uosuaq at 3:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm kind of hoping Trump *doesn't* bring back the SS, but...oh you meant something else.
posted by uosuaq at 3:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think the most likely scenario is not that they will kill Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security/ACA, but that they will limit access to them. Narrowing of SSI or SSDI eligibility, removal of Medicaid expansion, etc.
I'd expect block grants first of all, for Medicaid. ACA repeal: top priority. They'll probably keep the name "Social Security" but who knows what they will do to it. The widely repeated lie that it is "bankrupt" when the revenues can't cover benefits and we have to start paying back the excess payroll tax money (remember the "trust fund"? that's just T-bills held by the SSA) that workers have been paying since the 1980s will make it easier to declare a crisis that calls for radical measures.
posted by thelonius at 3:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd expect block grants first of all, for Medicaid. ACA repeal: top priority. They'll probably keep the name "Social Security" but who knows what they will do to it. The widely repeated lie that it is "bankrupt" when the revenues can't cover benefits and we have to start paying back the excess payroll tax money (remember the "trust fund"? that's just T-bills held by the SSA) that workers have been paying since the 1980s will make it easier to declare a crisis that calls for radical measures.
posted by thelonius at 3:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
ACA repeal: top priorityNot that I trust him, but today he indicates that there are parts of the ACA he'd like to keep. And he has been consistent about wanting a better healthcare system for the US for decades.
posted by Coventry at 3:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Narrowing of SSI or SSDI eligibility, removal of Medicaid expansion, etc.
Yeah this would basically fuck most poor people in red states. SSDI has become their de facto welfare scheme after 1996 gutted the proper welfare system.
You'd destroy what's left of those rural communities taking out what little money is still being put into those small town economies.
I'd expect block grants first of all, for Medicaid.
The Republicans apparently have a book named "How to fuck the blue states while simultaneously giving red states a a slush fund windfall for dummies".
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah this would basically fuck most poor people in red states. SSDI has become their de facto welfare scheme after 1996 gutted the proper welfare system.
You'd destroy what's left of those rural communities taking out what little money is still being put into those small town economies.
I'd expect block grants first of all, for Medicaid.
The Republicans apparently have a book named "How to fuck the blue states while simultaneously giving red states a a slush fund windfall for dummies".
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Charles Pierce: Trump Was Bold Enough to Be a Public Racist. It Worked.
posted by homunculus at 3:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 3:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
> uhhh. Moscow had contacts with Trump team during campaign, Russian diplomat says
This Story Should Dominate the News Until Trump Is Sworn In. This needs to get a full airing.
This Story Should Dominate the News Until Trump Is Sworn In. This needs to get a full airing.
This is a monumental story, and it deserves a full airing before we swear this guy in. And it's only part of the unprecedented tangle of shadowy business dealings that will follow him into office. The president-elect also is the defendant in 75 different lawsuits of assorted kinds. He plans to put his assets into a "blind trust" that will be overseen by…his children. I know a lot of people are charmed by his reluctance to abide by traditional political norms and customs, but this is far beyond that. This is a guy toting a huge amount of baggage into the Oval Office and each piece of it contains a ticking time-bomb.posted by homunculus at 3:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [30 favorites]
The Russian business is perilous beyond words. But you can sense even now that our Fourth Estate is pushing it ever so gently in the direction of the same memory hole down which went Nixon's treasonous behavior as regards the Paris Peace Talks and the possibility that the Reagan campaign monkeywrenched the release of the hostages in Iran in 1980. The way this works is that the elite political media decides something is so unthinkable that the children—that's the rest of us—are too delicate to handle it.
Well, kids, the unthinkable already has happened. You might as well cover it as fully as possible.
Re: the ACA.
It's gonna be interesting when the Republicans repeal the individual mandate and the subsidies but the ban on barring pre-existing conditions and lifetime caps is still in place. Hello $2500 a month health insurance.
posted by Justinian at 3:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's gonna be interesting when the Republicans repeal the individual mandate and the subsidies but the ban on barring pre-existing conditions and lifetime caps is still in place. Hello $2500 a month health insurance.
posted by Justinian at 3:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
This Story Should Dominate the News.....
Really? After what just happened, they're still saying dumb shit like this? After watching a ton of coverage (because you can't know what's wrong with it if you haven't even seen it) I can't believe they're saying this silliness. You know good and well nothing means a thing against trump. You know what story would sink Trump? That he was secretly a black woman. Because as long as Trump wakes up white and male, and conducts himself essentially screaming that fact as a point of emphasis on a day to day basis, he's going to ride white male privilege right on through both terms of his presidency.
posted by cashman at 3:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Really? After what just happened, they're still saying dumb shit like this? After watching a ton of coverage (because you can't know what's wrong with it if you haven't even seen it) I can't believe they're saying this silliness. You know good and well nothing means a thing against trump. You know what story would sink Trump? That he was secretly a black woman. Because as long as Trump wakes up white and male, and conducts himself essentially screaming that fact as a point of emphasis on a day to day basis, he's going to ride white male privilege right on through both terms of his presidency.
posted by cashman at 3:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Justinian: Healthcare really is something Trump has put a lot of thought into, and it's just possible his plan will hang together. If he can really push through price transparency for medical services and a nation-wide market for health insurance, maybe that will be enough to drive down prices and avoid outrageous premiums... Maybe.
posted by Coventry at 3:28 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Coventry at 3:28 PM on November 11, 2016
This Story Should Dominate the News Until Trump Is Sworn In. This needs to get a full airing.
This should be the first thing that Newt Gingrich investigates as head of the HUAC.
posted by futz at 3:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
This should be the first thing that Newt Gingrich investigates as head of the HUAC.
posted by futz at 3:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Justinian: Healthcare really is something Trump has put a lot of thought into, and it's just possible his plan will hang together. If he can really push through price transparency for medical services and a nation-wide market for health insurance, maybe that will be enough to drive down prices and avoid outrageous premiums... Maybe.
Uninsured pays medicare prices. Done.
posted by Talez at 3:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Uninsured pays medicare prices. Done.
posted by Talez at 3:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
today he indicates that there are parts of the ACA he'd like to keep.
That was the morning edition, here's the late edition:
Gone from the seven-point list (PDF) Trump put forth during his election campaign is a plan to allow the import of prescription medications. Also gone is a plan to require price transparency in healthcare, something the vast majority of Americans would likely support. There’s also no further mention of reforming mental health programs in the country or making individuals' healthcare premiums tax-deductible.
Instead, the new top issues on Trump’s healthcare plan seem to fit with Republicans’ pro-life stance: to “protect individual conscience in healthcare” and “protect innocent human life from conception to natural death.” The former would shield doctors, pharmacists, and other healthcare providers who refuse to perform or offer services that conflict with their religious or personal beliefs. Such policies are most often used in relation to reproductive issues, such as dispensing of contraception or performing abortions.
Also freshly on the agenda is a plan to “modernize” Medicare, something Republicans, particularly House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), have long sought. Ryan’s past plan involved providing Medicare beneficiaries with a chunk of money to purchase private health insurance or a government-run program.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
That was the morning edition, here's the late edition:
Gone from the seven-point list (PDF) Trump put forth during his election campaign is a plan to allow the import of prescription medications. Also gone is a plan to require price transparency in healthcare, something the vast majority of Americans would likely support. There’s also no further mention of reforming mental health programs in the country or making individuals' healthcare premiums tax-deductible.
Instead, the new top issues on Trump’s healthcare plan seem to fit with Republicans’ pro-life stance: to “protect individual conscience in healthcare” and “protect innocent human life from conception to natural death.” The former would shield doctors, pharmacists, and other healthcare providers who refuse to perform or offer services that conflict with their religious or personal beliefs. Such policies are most often used in relation to reproductive issues, such as dispensing of contraception or performing abortions.
Also freshly on the agenda is a plan to “modernize” Medicare, something Republicans, particularly House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), have long sought. Ryan’s past plan involved providing Medicare beneficiaries with a chunk of money to purchase private health insurance or a government-run program.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Slate: How Trump Conned America
Ever since the first Trump event I attended back in March, I’d wondered why his campaign was so intent on impounding us inside these press pens during his speeches. Was it to prevent us from speaking to rallygoers? If so, it was ineffective—you can chat with them all you want before or after the event or by beckoning them to the edge of the pen. Maybe it was meant to keep us from filming protesters up close? Again, didn’t work, as violent abuse of these dissenters was caught on camera again and again. The campaign itself has always claimed it was a security protocol, which made little sense, as everyone inside the venues has been swept by Secret Service—and if journalists can handle war zones, they can handle a little shoving.posted by zachlipton at 3:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [79 favorites]
Perhaps I’d been naïve, but it only now dawned on me, in the final week of the campaign, to my great horror, that the real reason they put us in the pen was so they could turn us into props. We were a vital element in Trump’s performance. He never once failed to invite his crowds to heckle us. He was placing us on display like captured animals.
And it worked. The press pack, collectively, looked nothing like the crowds at Trump events—particularly in more rural towns. We’d file into these places with our sleek luggage and our expensive tech gear and our better haircuts. We were far more diverse than the people in the stands. When the crowds lustily booed us, we’d sit there impassive and stone-faced, and this only further served to convince the rallygoers that we were snobby, superior pricks. The pen was an amazingly efficient means of othering us.
Behold, Trump said to his fans, I’ve rounded up a passel of those elites you detest. And I’ve caged them for you! Allow me to belittle them for your delight. Here, now you take a turn—go ahead, have at it! Do it again, don’t be shy! Under President Trump, the other elites will be in cages, too. We’ll lock them up, just like the chant goes. Just like you wanted. You’ll be their captors.
In retrospect, this was the core message of Trump’s campaign.
Healthcare really is something Trump has put a lot of thought into
...
Is that a joke? I mean, I can tell it isn't, but...
His plan, such as it is, is ridiculous. It amounts to allowing insurers to sell across state lines, block-granting medicaid, and price transparency. That's basically it. That is in no sense a thoughtful plan which can replace obamacare in any meaningful sense.
Sure, an argument can be made for price transparency. Fine. But that's not a health care plan. It's like saying your foreign policy plan is having the Pentagon list its budget more transparently. That may be a good thing but it isn't actually a foreign policy.
There is nothing in Trump's "plan" about subsidies. Nothing in his plan about pre-existing conditions. Nothing in his plan about yearly or lifetime benefit caps. I could go on.
Arrrrrgh. The anger, it burns.
posted by Justinian at 3:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
...
Is that a joke? I mean, I can tell it isn't, but...
His plan, such as it is, is ridiculous. It amounts to allowing insurers to sell across state lines, block-granting medicaid, and price transparency. That's basically it. That is in no sense a thoughtful plan which can replace obamacare in any meaningful sense.
Sure, an argument can be made for price transparency. Fine. But that's not a health care plan. It's like saying your foreign policy plan is having the Pentagon list its budget more transparently. That may be a good thing but it isn't actually a foreign policy.
There is nothing in Trump's "plan" about subsidies. Nothing in his plan about pre-existing conditions. Nothing in his plan about yearly or lifetime benefit caps. I could go on.
Arrrrrgh. The anger, it burns.
posted by Justinian at 3:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Oh, he dropped the price transparency thing which was like the only part of his entire plan with any sort of reasonable argument behind it. Lol?
posted by Justinian at 3:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
McConnell is a coward and an asshole but I am pretty sure he'll hold off on nuking the filibuster if Schumer agrees to a certain number of up or down votes.
The Republican leadership know that they have only a couple of years without the inevitable divided congress and that on a structural basis they are running out of time where they have a natural advantage in the house and senate.
Yes it's possible that they could try to ram something through without a filibuster but if whatever they pull is unpopular like entitlement reform the backlash would give Democrats a carte blanche to shove so many progressive reforms it wouldn't be funny.
The strange bedfellow of economic and social conservatives is rapidly coming to an end and they know it. Right now their major advantage is voter apathy.
posted by vuron at 3:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Republican leadership know that they have only a couple of years without the inevitable divided congress and that on a structural basis they are running out of time where they have a natural advantage in the house and senate.
Yes it's possible that they could try to ram something through without a filibuster but if whatever they pull is unpopular like entitlement reform the backlash would give Democrats a carte blanche to shove so many progressive reforms it wouldn't be funny.
The strange bedfellow of economic and social conservatives is rapidly coming to an end and they know it. Right now their major advantage is voter apathy.
posted by vuron at 3:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Donald Trump May Select an Architect of Bush’s Torture Program to Run CIA
Jose Rodriguez. Of course. FFS.
posted by homunculus at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Jose Rodriguez. Of course. FFS.
posted by homunculus at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
posted by Glibpaxman at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Glibpaxman at 3:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah there's no thought there. Selling insurance across state lines is a stupid argument. We're talking about great big insurance companies here; they don't have a problem registering with a state insurance regulator. There's no federal issue here either, states can already allow it, and yet it has had no effect where states have already allowed out-of-state policies for years.
posted by zachlipton at 3:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's gonna be interesting when the Republicans repeal the individual mandate and the subsidies but the ban on barring pre-existing conditions and lifetime caps is still in place. Hello $2500 a month health insurance.
He'll blame this on Obama - "He tied our hands! If we could wipe the slate clean you would have the best plan ever!" And his base will buy it because they're getting their news from Facebook instead of reading ten page policy briefs on health care reform.
posted by bluecore at 3:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
He'll blame this on Obama - "He tied our hands! If we could wipe the slate clean you would have the best plan ever!" And his base will buy it because they're getting their news from Facebook instead of reading ten page policy briefs on health care reform.
posted by bluecore at 3:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jamelle Bouie has a tweetstorm that is worth reading. Trump’s win means that white nationalism is at the center of our politics, and that people on the right and left will try to accommodate it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
For what? Failure to MAGA?
posted by kirkaracha at 3:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Appears the Clinton campaign was disconnected from voters that they could not even target them well.
Hillary Clinton’s vaunted .. text messaging GOTV effort may have been the worst offender. Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters.
..
How could the Clinton campaign have gotten the targeting so wrong? In the rust belt states, there were many registered Democrats voting for Trump, not Clinton. The extent of their errors probably had a lot to do with the fact that party registration ― normally one of the best predictors of political behavior ― would have wreaked havoc with their models in many geographies.
To me, that suggests "It's the economy stupid" explanations more than racism and xenophobia. Along with the same carelessness that cost her the nomination in 2008.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hillary Clinton’s vaunted .. text messaging GOTV effort may have been the worst offender. Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters.
..
How could the Clinton campaign have gotten the targeting so wrong? In the rust belt states, there were many registered Democrats voting for Trump, not Clinton. The extent of their errors probably had a lot to do with the fact that party registration ― normally one of the best predictors of political behavior ― would have wreaked havoc with their models in many geographies.
To me, that suggests "It's the economy stupid" explanations more than racism and xenophobia. Along with the same carelessness that cost her the nomination in 2008.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hello $2500 a month health insurance.
lol mine's already $1,100 just for me, a single person with no dependents.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
lol mine's already $1,100 just for me, a single person with no dependents.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Atlantic The U.S. Media Is Completely Unprepared to Cover a Trump Presidency
Donald Trump and his surrogates have shown an uncanny ability to lie in the face of objective facts. They will now have the power of the federal government to help them.
Donald Trump and his surrogates have shown an uncanny ability to lie in the face of objective facts. They will now have the power of the federal government to help them.
During the 2016 presidential campaign, reporters marveled at the ability of Donald Trump and his surrogates to create an alternate reality in which statements made by the candidate had not been made at all—from his view that global warming is a hoax, to his nonexistent opposition to the Iraq War, to his refusal to say he would concede in the event of a loss, to his remarks about his relationship to Russian strongman Vladimir Putin. These are people who could argue that the sky is green without a blink. They were able to win a presidential election while doing so. Now they will have the entire apparatus of the federal government to bolster their lies, and the mainstream press is woefully unprepared to cover them.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The first reason is that political journalism is highly dependent on official sources, which are chased with abandon. Miller’s defense of stenography seems absurd in hindsight, but there is a grain of truth in it. Government sources are granted a high degree of credibility, and official lies can be difficult to dispute. Contrary leaks from highly placed sources can offer an important check on the official story, but the breadth of the surveillance state built by Bush and Obama, a surveillance state now in Trump’s hands, will make such leaks difficult.
For Trump administration mouthpieces, both public and anonymous, lies will now come with an officiality that will be difficult to contest
I don't know about impeachment, but I definitely think buyer's remorse is going to set in a *lot* faster than it did with Bush.
posted by uosuaq at 3:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 3:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Bill Cosby's mulling making a comedy comeback yall! If Trump got elected president, why not! You all feel that? You notice the scenery outside? We're going backward.
posted by cashman at 3:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by cashman at 3:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Another collection of hate crimes and sexual harassment by emboldened Trumpsters: I've spent the day speaking with Boulder-area people who've been victims of and/or witnesses to acts of hate this week. A few stories:
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bill Cosby's mulling making a comedy comeback yall!
Hey, when you're a star, they let you do it!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, when you're a star, they let you do it!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
You think they'll make that a law soon? Trump would go for it. I mean, duh, that's the point if you get my drift.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by gusottertrout at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016
Trump and the Middle East: ‘Ignore the campaign rhetoric’
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Three months after Trump declared his infamous Muslim ban last December, his campaign according to Arab diplomatic sources, reached out to different Middle East embassies in Washington, DC. The message from the Trump campaign to key Arab diplomats last Spring was a plea to “ignore Mr. Trump’s rhetoric on the campaign trail.”"Yeah I just say that stuff to rile up the rubes at home. But business is business, am I right?"
The outreach which was done by his staff mostly to key states in the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), had Trump relay assurances to those governments and capitals where he has business partnerships, that “what is being said on the campaign trail is different from how he would govern”, and that he “looks forward to do business together and explore opportunities were he to win the Presidency.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Perhaps I’d been naïve, but it only now dawned on me, in the final week of the campaign, to my great horror, that the real reason they put us in the pen was so they could turn us into props.
Holy shit a journo actually caught on! I was amused when people were posting all those Clinton-several hundred to Trump-single digits endorsement scoresheets like that was an unalloyed good and not sometimes a loud shout of "You're With Her™, peasant, if you know what's good for you!" from the nobility.
I can't believe how the press was so blind to the fact that Trump was running against them, even when he'd directly fuck with them they seemed to always act like it was just asshole behaviour but not deliberate strategic behavior...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Holy shit a journo actually caught on! I was amused when people were posting all those Clinton-several hundred to Trump-single digits endorsement scoresheets like that was an unalloyed good and not sometimes a loud shout of "You're With Her™, peasant, if you know what's good for you!" from the nobility.
I can't believe how the press was so blind to the fact that Trump was running against them, even when he'd directly fuck with them they seemed to always act like it was just asshole behaviour but not deliberate strategic behavior...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Thread: I've spent the day speaking with Boulder-area people who've been victims of and/or witnesses to acts of hate this week. A few stories:
from a UC-Berkeley law prof
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
from a UC-Berkeley law prof
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
kirkaracha: Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
For what? Failure to MAGA?
Because they can't control him. Paul Ryan is certainly already sick of Trump's shit. The evangelicals voted for Trump with the hope something would happen to him so Pence could herald in their religious golden age. And the intelligence community is terrified of Trump's incompetence. If they find evidence of his dealings with Russia, maybe it falls into the hands of the the Intelligence committee?
posted by bluecore at 4:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
For what? Failure to MAGA?
Because they can't control him. Paul Ryan is certainly already sick of Trump's shit. The evangelicals voted for Trump with the hope something would happen to him so Pence could herald in their religious golden age. And the intelligence community is terrified of Trump's incompetence. If they find evidence of his dealings with Russia, maybe it falls into the hands of the the Intelligence committee?
posted by bluecore at 4:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think we've all known that Trump's policies aren't going to happen because he has no true beliefs. Beneath his ill-fitting flesh jacket, he's a gaping orifice of hunger and neediness is tentacles always grasping at the next thing it wants to shove into itself.
No, we're in for a few years of policies initiated by the zombie-eyed granny starver who leads the House. Those evil policies that we've seen fuck up Wisconsin and Kansas.
Then we're in got thirty years of fighting whatever turd golems get placed on the supreme court so the evangelicals can feel like magic angel babies and bigoted cake decorators can be safe.
We've got to fight them though? What choice do we have?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
No, we're in for a few years of policies initiated by the zombie-eyed granny starver who leads the House. Those evil policies that we've seen fuck up Wisconsin and Kansas.
Then we're in got thirty years of fighting whatever turd golems get placed on the supreme court so the evangelicals can feel like magic angel babies and bigoted cake decorators can be safe.
We've got to fight them though? What choice do we have?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
Oh, I think he likes the spotlight right now. But I'm talking about the actual work. The sitting in meetings all day, reading briefs and reports, WORK part of the job.
He just won't do it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
He just won't do it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
This map is terrifying:
GOP controls 33 state legsilatures (66%). Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments.
What constitutional amendments would the GOP like to pass? I shudder to think.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
GOP controls 33 state legsilatures (66%). Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments.
What constitutional amendments would the GOP like to pass? I shudder to think.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I mean and our fellow citizens. It's like we're in a leaning boat and we're trying to patch holes so we don't sink but they're annoyed because they don't want to help and get pissy when we try to explain that, yes, the ship is sinking so they select a captain who tells them the ship is seaworthy even as water starts seeping up below and then look at us smugly and say "see? Not sinking."
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
What constitutional amendments would the GOP like to pass? I shudder to think.
No abortion. No gay marriage. Probably some constitutional enshrinement of the drug war and legal protections for the police. Maybe repeal the separation of church and state?
posted by dis_integration at 4:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
No abortion. No gay marriage. Probably some constitutional enshrinement of the drug war and legal protections for the police. Maybe repeal the separation of church and state?
posted by dis_integration at 4:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
He just won't do it.
Seriously. I keep reading people saying how at least he'll be stuck at a 20 hour a day job. Nope. He won't do shit. And he won't let the Press follow him so we won't know what he's doing. Don't you remember the tape of him talking about childcare on the Stern Show? About how he doesn't do diapers or any of the childcare at all? This man doesn't have a sense of duty or an ounce of shame in his body.
posted by bluecore at 4:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
Seriously. I keep reading people saying how at least he'll be stuck at a 20 hour a day job. Nope. He won't do shit. And he won't let the Press follow him so we won't know what he's doing. Don't you remember the tape of him talking about childcare on the Stern Show? About how he doesn't do diapers or any of the childcare at all? This man doesn't have a sense of duty or an ounce of shame in his body.
posted by bluecore at 4:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think they'd get rid of women's right to vote, that's what I think they'd do. A lot of GOPers like Thiel would just be happier if women couldn't vote.
And there's another question - what would it take to overturn women's right to own property?
What about making racially mixed marriage illegal again, or doing something legally to encourage discrimination against mixed couples?
And they'd just make homosexual behavior against the constitution, that's all.
Death penalty in the constitution?
Some kind of debt peonage that could be used to recreate slavery?
There is no limit on what these people would do, because they don't have the cognitive processes that would put some kind of brakes on.
posted by Frowner at 4:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
And there's another question - what would it take to overturn women's right to own property?
What about making racially mixed marriage illegal again, or doing something legally to encourage discrimination against mixed couples?
And they'd just make homosexual behavior against the constitution, that's all.
Death penalty in the constitution?
Some kind of debt peonage that could be used to recreate slavery?
There is no limit on what these people would do, because they don't have the cognitive processes that would put some kind of brakes on.
posted by Frowner at 4:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Because they can't control him.
Exactly. A palace coup is a dream come true for the GOP Establishment. Trump has handed them a golden situation to finally do all the shit they want to do, and the only thing potentially standing in their way is Trump himself.
posted by cell divide at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Exactly. A palace coup is a dream come true for the GOP Establishment. Trump has handed them a golden situation to finally do all the shit they want to do, and the only thing potentially standing in their way is Trump himself.
posted by cell divide at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Eh, it'll be like the latter Reagan years in a lot of ways, but with Trump sometimes getting involved with some screwy details or plan for his own benefit or out of boredom.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 4:20 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
GOP controls 33 state legsilatures (66%). Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments.
Yep, the statement out of the California legislature wasn't kidding when it said that California is now the keeper of America's future. The Pacific coast plus parts of New England are soon to be the last bastions standing.
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yep, the statement out of the California legislature wasn't kidding when it said that California is now the keeper of America's future. The Pacific coast plus parts of New England are soon to be the last bastions standing.
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Exactly. A palace coup is a dream come true for the GOP Establishment. Trump has handed the a golden situation to finally do all the shit they want to do, and the only thing potentially standing in their way is Trump himself.
My question is, since you need 2/3 of the senate to convict impeachment what would/should the dems do? If they save Trump would he turn the revenge up to 11 and destroy the GOP from the inside just for spite?
posted by Glibpaxman at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016
My question is, since you need 2/3 of the senate to convict impeachment what would/should the dems do? If they save Trump would he turn the revenge up to 11 and destroy the GOP from the inside just for spite?
posted by Glibpaxman at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016
I suppose I should say "the Northeast" rather than "New England".
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on November 11, 2016
Appears the Clinton campaign was disconnected from voters that they could not even target them well.
"Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters."
This article is bullshit. First it's written by two former Bernie staffers so hardly unbiased. Second, it's starts with a completely false anecdote.
And the primary and supposedly damning claim in the article: "Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters."? That is as much as you learn about it, that one sentence. There's not a single piece of evidence, not a single quote from anybody, even off the record or anonymously, in the entire fucking piece of shit hack job.
Oh, and these people writing this? They just happen to have their own data operation they'd like to sell you.
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [60 favorites]
"Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters."
This article is bullshit. First it's written by two former Bernie staffers so hardly unbiased. Second, it's starts with a completely false anecdote.
“Why aren’t I 50 points ahead?”No, she fucking didn't. She said after listing some of her family friendly policies "Now having said all that, why aren't I 50 points ahead you might ask." She didn't ask them shit. She posed a hypothetical question to herself from the audience as a rhetorical device to lay out her argument. And the fact that this article erroneously regurgitates the rightwing bullshit about this tells you all you need to know.
That’s the question that Hillary Clinton asked a group of labor organizers in late September when she was up by 7 points in the national polls.
And the primary and supposedly damning claim in the article: "Volunteers reported as many as 30% of the replies they received from voters they were urging to get out were Trump supporters."? That is as much as you learn about it, that one sentence. There's not a single piece of evidence, not a single quote from anybody, even off the record or anonymously, in the entire fucking piece of shit hack job.
Oh, and these people writing this? They just happen to have their own data operation they'd like to sell you.
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [60 favorites]
We've got to fight them though? What choice do we have?
Move somewhere else if I can talk my wife into it. I don't have 30 years.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
What I'm really realizing is that oh, maybe 15% or 20% of humans have the ability to do sort of an "empathy-reasoning" move - to think "It would be terrible to [endure a kind of suffering], therefore we should not do things that will force people to endure it, even if I personally don't have to". Most people can't do that and don't want to try. Slavery is bad? Rape is bad? Being beaten in the street is bad? Well, take care that you're the one doing the enslaving, raping and beating, then.
A couple of years ago I saw a photo of an ISIS executioner in black holding a knife at someone's throat. The other person was blindfolded and had been forced to kneel. And it hit me at the time that this was an incredibly effective piece of propaganda, because what it said was "Don't you want to be the black-clad man with the power of life and death? Why would you want to be the degraded, dying victim on the ground?"
And that sums up humanity - a species that would truly rather hurt one another than eat, a species that sees violent thuggery and wants in on the action. The percentage of people who aren't like that are sports, evolutionary dead-ends.
This is the same story that's been going as long as humanity has been at all organized - most people are immiserated, a few of them try something else and they're crushed and brutalized. That's what happens. That's what people are, what people do. The fluke was that we had forty years or so where there was a little breathing room between beat downs, and now it's over and the normal state of human monstrosity returns.
posted by Frowner at 4:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
A couple of years ago I saw a photo of an ISIS executioner in black holding a knife at someone's throat. The other person was blindfolded and had been forced to kneel. And it hit me at the time that this was an incredibly effective piece of propaganda, because what it said was "Don't you want to be the black-clad man with the power of life and death? Why would you want to be the degraded, dying victim on the ground?"
And that sums up humanity - a species that would truly rather hurt one another than eat, a species that sees violent thuggery and wants in on the action. The percentage of people who aren't like that are sports, evolutionary dead-ends.
This is the same story that's been going as long as humanity has been at all organized - most people are immiserated, a few of them try something else and they're crushed and brutalized. That's what happens. That's what people are, what people do. The fluke was that we had forty years or so where there was a little breathing room between beat downs, and now it's over and the normal state of human monstrosity returns.
posted by Frowner at 4:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Well, I guess at least CNN won't have to worry about that embarrassing Lewandowski sitch for too much longer.
Corey Lewandowski resigns from CNN Guys I think he might have been working for Trump this whole time.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
Gregg Popovich, coach of the San Antonio Spurs, follows Stan Van Gundy's lead and sounds off on the election:
posted by acidic at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
It leaves me wondering where I've been living and with whom I'm living... and the fact that people can just gloss that over and start talking about the transition team and we're all going to be kumbaya now and try to make the country good without talking about any of those things. And now we see that he's already backing off on immigration, on Obamacare, on other things, so was it a big fake? Which makes you feel that it's even more disgusting and cynical, that somebody would use that to get the base that fired up to get elected, and what gets lost in the process are African-Americans, and Hispanics, and women, and the gay population, and not to mention, the eighth-grade developmental stage exhibited by him when he made fun of a handicapped person. I mean come on, that's what a seventh-grade bully does, and he was elected President of the United States...that's disgusting...Note for those who don't know who this is: Popovich is a gem. He has won 5 championships, hired the first woman to be an NBA assistant coach, embraced international players before it was a trend, defended a young boy who sang a Mariachi-style national anthem, supported Kaepernick, and supported Bill Kennedy after he came out. Trump complimented the Spurs during a campaign stop this year and said "Wouldn't it be great if the country were run like that?" Yes, it would be great.
I'm a rich white guy and I'm sick to my stomach thinking about it...my big fear is, we are Rome.
posted by acidic at 4:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [49 favorites]
My question is, since you need 2/3 of the senate to convict impeachment what would/should the dems do?
Try explaining to the folks back home that you voted against impeaching the monster when you had the chance. No matter your reasons, that won't play well. And really you are gambling that a Trump retaining power would turn all his power on revenging himself against the Republicans who backstabbed him. That is a big gamble.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Try explaining to the folks back home that you voted against impeaching the monster when you had the chance. No matter your reasons, that won't play well. And really you are gambling that a Trump retaining power would turn all his power on revenging himself against the Republicans who backstabbed him. That is a big gamble.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump hasn't actually, so far as I am aware, been proven to have done anything impeachable. Being a racist is not a crime. Overthrowing decades or centuries of precedent and tradition is not a crime. Undermining our democracy isn't a crime either. All terrible things but not actually criminal.
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
My question is, since you need 2/3 of the senate to convict impeachment what would/should the dems do? If they save Trump would he turn the revenge up to 11 and destroy the GOP from the inside just for spite?
Personally, I'd go for it. I know Pence is "Handmaid's Tale" scary, but Trump is "the missiles are flying" scary. We can fight tooth and nail against Pence, but there are zero checks and balances to stop Trump from nuking Iran or North Korea. Impeachment takes Trump out of the equation for 2020, or at least pits him back against the Republicans. Then the Democrats can run a progressive candidate to counter Pence and we can unfuck this shit.
posted by bluecore at 4:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Personally, I'd go for it. I know Pence is "Handmaid's Tale" scary, but Trump is "the missiles are flying" scary. We can fight tooth and nail against Pence, but there are zero checks and balances to stop Trump from nuking Iran or North Korea. Impeachment takes Trump out of the equation for 2020, or at least pits him back against the Republicans. Then the Democrats can run a progressive candidate to counter Pence and we can unfuck this shit.
posted by bluecore at 4:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
These things aren't cultural at all. They're a result of pubic policies, implemented by politicians.
This is only partly true. As SwiftOnSecurity noted (though deleted) a couple of days ago, Blockbuster used to employ tens of thousands of people dispersed across the US; Netflix employs a fraction of that, and all its US jobs are in two California offices. A Blockbuster job wasn't a lifetime job, but it's a job that's no longer there, and nor is a retail outlet that paid local property taxes. Technology and automation are real things independent of policy. Haulage firms want rid of truck drivers not least because computers don't require health benefits.
I don't know how the congressional GOP will square off the role bestowed upon it as Designated Reviver of the Rust Belt when its preferred economic model is that of the casualised, boss-in-charge, right-to-work South. "Hey Michigan, we hear you, and you should become Tennessee" is quite the bullshit act to pull off, though Scott Walker is a model there already.
It's not even clear that Republicans in their current state will even try to touch the really popular aspects of ACA because people really like them.
Insurers, pharma companies and (increasingly-consolidated) hospital groups have made long-term plans based upon at least some of the core provisions of the ACA (and were given years to ramp up for it). Even if they like the idea of returning to an era of taking money from the healthy and punishing the sick, they won't want to turn their corporate battleships on short notice and their lobbyists will make that clear.
I mean, aren't these all a bunch of awful stupid egomaniacs?
The DC press will quickly be presented with a reality-show narrative of intrigue and leaks and counterleaks and access and favours and sanctions (some perhaps deliberate, in lieu of real access, but not all) that did not exist during the Obama years. It is incumbent upon them not to treat the court drama as a distraction, but also not to treat it as normal.
posted by holgate at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is only partly true. As SwiftOnSecurity noted (though deleted) a couple of days ago, Blockbuster used to employ tens of thousands of people dispersed across the US; Netflix employs a fraction of that, and all its US jobs are in two California offices. A Blockbuster job wasn't a lifetime job, but it's a job that's no longer there, and nor is a retail outlet that paid local property taxes. Technology and automation are real things independent of policy. Haulage firms want rid of truck drivers not least because computers don't require health benefits.
I don't know how the congressional GOP will square off the role bestowed upon it as Designated Reviver of the Rust Belt when its preferred economic model is that of the casualised, boss-in-charge, right-to-work South. "Hey Michigan, we hear you, and you should become Tennessee" is quite the bullshit act to pull off, though Scott Walker is a model there already.
It's not even clear that Republicans in their current state will even try to touch the really popular aspects of ACA because people really like them.
Insurers, pharma companies and (increasingly-consolidated) hospital groups have made long-term plans based upon at least some of the core provisions of the ACA (and were given years to ramp up for it). Even if they like the idea of returning to an era of taking money from the healthy and punishing the sick, they won't want to turn their corporate battleships on short notice and their lobbyists will make that clear.
I mean, aren't these all a bunch of awful stupid egomaniacs?
The DC press will quickly be presented with a reality-show narrative of intrigue and leaks and counterleaks and access and favours and sanctions (some perhaps deliberate, in lieu of real access, but not all) that did not exist during the Obama years. It is incumbent upon them not to treat the court drama as a distraction, but also not to treat it as normal.
posted by holgate at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
kirkaracha: Corey Lewandowski resigns from CNN Guys I think he might have been working for Trump this whole time.
Richard Lawson @rilaws:
CNN drops its coffee cup as Corey Lewandowski's limp slowly turns into a confident stride
posted by bluecore at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
Richard Lawson @rilaws:
CNN drops its coffee cup as Corey Lewandowski's limp slowly turns into a confident stride
posted by bluecore at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
Trump's transition team has been named. It includes Peter Thiel and Reince Priebus, as well as most of Trump's family. Anyone who thought this man would be kept in check, really needs to set that aside now, as comforting as it may have been to dull the blow. This is reality, we've got to face it as is if we hope to change it.
posted by fraula at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by fraula at 4:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
It has taken putting a monster into the oval office for us to see how little we demand of our President-- even while we hand over immense power, the power over the life and death of millions.
He is not required to pass a physical. He is not required to turn over his tax returns. He is not required to pass a test displaying his knowledge about the job he has been hired to do. He is not required to do any actual work while POTUS. The only requirement is a birth certificate proving age and natural citizenship.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
He is not required to pass a physical. He is not required to turn over his tax returns. He is not required to pass a test displaying his knowledge about the job he has been hired to do. He is not required to do any actual work while POTUS. The only requirement is a birth certificate proving age and natural citizenship.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Forgot to add, he is not required to put his holdings into a blind trust.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gregg Popovich, coach of the San Antonio Spurs, follows Stan Van Gundy's lead and sounds off on the election
Steve Kerr, too.
Maybe we should’ve seen it coming over the last 10 years. You look at society, you look at what’s popular. People are getting paid millions of dollars to go on TV and scream at each other, whether it’s in sports or politics or entertainment, and I guess it was only a matter of time before it spilled into politics. But then all of a sudden you’re faced with the reality that the man who’s gonna lead you has routinely used racist, misogynist, insulting words.posted by kirkaracha at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
That’s a tough one. That’s a tough one. I wish him well. I hope he’s a good president. I have no idea what kind of president he’ll be because he hasn’t said anything about what he’s going to do. We don’t know. But it’s tough when you want there to be some respect and dignity, and there hasn’t been any. And then you walk into a room with your daughter and your wife who have basically been insulted by his comments and they’re distraught. Then you walk in and see the faces of your players, most of them who have been insulted directly as minorities, it’s very shocking. It really is.
We talked about it as a team this morning. I don’t know what else to say. Just the whole process has left all of us feeling kind of disgusted and disappointed. I thought we were better than this. I thought The Jerry Springer Show was The Jerry Springer Show. Watching the last debate, Trump would make a crack at Clinton and you could hear the fans, the stands, ‘Ooooohhhh,’ like ‘Ohhh, no he didn’t,’ ‘Yooo, yeah he did.’ This is a presidential election. It’s not The Jerry Springer Show. I’m sorry. This is my rant. I’m disappointed in the lack of respect and dignity that’s involved, and that’s the way it goes.
Now that he will be president, though, won't his medical records be public?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
And based on that article, it would seem like Trump's demographic isn't simply bigoted towards marginalized groups, but against those poorer than them.
Oh, well if that's all it is, then carry on. I can't believe we've made such a fuss about it, how embarrassing.
/s
posted by some loser at 4:44 PM on November 11, 2016
Technology and automation are real things independent of policy.
Sure, but that explains why there are fewer jobs, not why people who do have jobs tend to hop between so many of them, and certainly not why pensions are gone. These two factors are interrelated -- obviously if the quantity and quality of jobs has decreased then people will keep hopping to find a better one -- but certainly the transition from pensions to 401ks accounts for the second half of corb's statement about pensions. The fact that people don't stay as long in jobs is likely a combination of policy and other factors including automation.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sure, but that explains why there are fewer jobs, not why people who do have jobs tend to hop between so many of them, and certainly not why pensions are gone. These two factors are interrelated -- obviously if the quantity and quality of jobs has decreased then people will keep hopping to find a better one -- but certainly the transition from pensions to 401ks accounts for the second half of corb's statement about pensions. The fact that people don't stay as long in jobs is likely a combination of policy and other factors including automation.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't believe anything the White House Medical Unit does is inherently a public record. It's traditional to release a summary of information to the press after the President has a physical or gets injured or something, but that's a tradition, not a requirement, and there's no real way to ensure that information is complete or accurate.
posted by zachlipton at 4:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 4:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
WaPo Donors and lobbyists already shaping Trump’s ‘drain the swamp’ administration
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It’s not just corporate lobbyists who are playing early, visible roles in the new power structure. Some of Trump’s biggest political donors are shaping the incoming administration, including Rebekah Mercer, a daughter of billionaire Robert Mercer, who is figuring prominently in behind-the-scenes discussions, according to people familiar with the transition.Has someone started a list of broken campaign promises yet? Day 3 of his pre-Presidency and he is most certainly not draining the swamp nor is he repealing ObamaCare.
Mercer is among four major donors appointed by Trump Friday to a 16-person executive committee overseeing his transition. The others are campaign finance chairman Steven Mnuchin, New York financier Anthony Scaramucci and Silicon Valley investor Peter Thiel.
Meanwhile, top campaign fundraisers and a raft of lobbyists tied to some of the country’s wealthiest industries have been put in charge of hiring and planning for specific federal agencies. They include J. Steven Hart, chairman of the law and lobbying shop Williams & Jensen; Michael McKenna, an energy company lobbyist who is overseeing planning for the Energy Department; and Dallas fundraiser Ray Washburne, was has been tapped to oversee the Commerce Department.
Billionaires who served as Trump’s policy advisers, such as Oklahoma oil executive Harold Hamm, are under consideration for cabinet positions.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Republican leadership know that they have only a couple of years without the inevitable divided congress and that on a structural basis they are running out of time where they have a natural advantage in the house and senate.
Voter suppression will ensure that the Republicans are in charge for decades. Who's going to stop them? NC simply ignored court orders to stop their scheme, and it worked.
Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
Lichtman claims his model is perfect because he predicted Al Gore would get the popular vote in 2000. Now he claims he's still perfect because Trump got the White House, even though Clinton won the popular vote.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:53 PM on November 11, 2016
Voter suppression will ensure that the Republicans are in charge for decades. Who's going to stop them? NC simply ignored court orders to stop their scheme, and it worked.
Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
Lichtman claims his model is perfect because he predicted Al Gore would get the popular vote in 2000. Now he claims he's still perfect because Trump got the White House, even though Clinton won the popular vote.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:53 PM on November 11, 2016
This is kind of hilarious but for the subject matter: Graham: Cruz should be on Supreme Court shortlist. Graham previously said of Cruz, "If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you."
I think this would be Graham's way of realizing he can't get rid of Cruz, but can at least make him work across First St.
posted by zachlipton at 4:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think this would be Graham's way of realizing he can't get rid of Cruz, but can at least make him work across First St.
posted by zachlipton at 4:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't believe anything the White House Medical Unit does is inherently a public record.
Exactly. HIPPA covers the President just like everyone else.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Exactly. HIPPA covers the President just like everyone else.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
About "GOP controls 33 state legsilatures (66%). Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments."
I suspect the Clinton crew, like Debbie Wasserman Schultz, etc. all made the Democratic party more internally corrupt, albeit with slightly more reasonable policies, while the Koch brothers' more predictable even handed support has made the Republican party actually less internally corrupt, albeit with asinine business style short sighted policies.
We seemingly cannot field the left wing political talent on the ground to win these elections because the Clinton crew focused too much political energy into their own pockets. And kept out all the hippies who actually wanted to make the world a better place.
It's possible the Democrats were always like this, but the Koch brothers' just improved the Republicans, or the internet helped folks notice. I donno. It's clear however the Democrats need to get their act together, asap.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect the Clinton crew, like Debbie Wasserman Schultz, etc. all made the Democratic party more internally corrupt, albeit with slightly more reasonable policies, while the Koch brothers' more predictable even handed support has made the Republican party actually less internally corrupt, albeit with asinine business style short sighted policies.
We seemingly cannot field the left wing political talent on the ground to win these elections because the Clinton crew focused too much political energy into their own pockets. And kept out all the hippies who actually wanted to make the world a better place.
It's possible the Democrats were always like this, but the Koch brothers' just improved the Republicans, or the internet helped folks notice. I donno. It's clear however the Democrats need to get their act together, asap.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Esquire: How Do You Get David Duke to Leave Your Party?
The former KKK leader is hoping to ride Donald Trump's coattails to the U.S. Senate.
The former KKK leader is hoping to ride Donald Trump's coattails to the U.S. Senate.
To Duke, the language of the Trump campaign that so shocked the political and media establishments–that Mexico was sending drugs, criminals and "rapists" over the border intentionally–sounded pleasantly familiar. "I thought great–very powerful, very good," he told me. "I do believe that absolutely most Americans agree with what he says and what I've been saying for years and years. We've had a controlled media that has basically not let the message get through properly, and his celebrity status and position in the base help that message get through, and that's a great thing."posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
> Healthcare really is something Trump has put a lot of thought intoNope.
Is that a joke? I mean, I can tell it isn't, but...
Trump has been a longtime proponent of single-payer health care funded by federal largesse. He has also heartily endorsed Obama’s signature Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.posted by Coventry at 5:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
In his 2000 book, “The America We Deserve,” Trump urged Americans “to reexamine the single-payer plan” and hoped “to improve on the prototype” of national health care implemented in Canada and the United Kingdom.
“We must have universal healthcare,” Trump flatly pronounced in the book (currently available used for $3.94 at Amazon).
In 1999, Trump said he was growing more liberal on the subject of health care. “I’m quite liberal and getting much more liberal on health care and other things,” he told Larry King at the time. “I really say: What’s the purpose of a country if you’re not going to have defensive and health care?”
In the same interview, Trump called national health care “an entitlement to this country if we’re going to have a great country.”
And now most of his clan is running the transition team.
Hoo boy. I don't think they've given up on Trump TV yet. After all, why should CNN et alia get to make all the money off the ratings and viewers The Trumps of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue will generate for the next 4-24 years.
He's got the Circus covered. Now where's the Bread?
posted by notyou at 5:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hoo boy. I don't think they've given up on Trump TV yet. After all, why should CNN et alia get to make all the money off the ratings and viewers The Trumps of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue will generate for the next 4-24 years.
He's got the Circus covered. Now where's the Bread?
posted by notyou at 5:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
What constitutional amendments would the GOP like to pass? I shudder to think.
Balanced Budget Amendment and Right To Life Amendment are two old favorites
posted by thelonius at 5:06 PM on November 11, 2016
Balanced Budget Amendment and Right To Life Amendment are two old favorites
posted by thelonius at 5:06 PM on November 11, 2016
Even using the word "entitlement" is a loaded term.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Jon Stewart: I finally understand the difference between a right and an entitlement. When you don't need a right--it's an entitlement. But watch out--because as soon as you do need it-- it's a right. Entitlements are entitlements for only as long as you yourself don't need it--but as soon as you do--it becomes a goddamn human right. It's only an entitlement when other people need it."I've paid into the system for 34 years. I am owed, not entitled.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Coventry, in what sense do his past statements about supporting single-payer in any way mean he has thought a lot about his current plan which has no relationship with single payer?
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump transition website lifts passages from nonpartisan nonprofit
posted by zachlipton at 5:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
President-elect Donald Trump's official government website, GreatAgain.gov, lifts the work of a nonprofit organization that provides research on presidential transitions, with some passages being duplicated whole-cloth.The site does sort of cite the source, but it's incredibly sloppy.
The copying, pointed out to POLITICO on Friday, comes four months after incoming first lady Melania Trump gave a speech to the Republican National Convention that borrowed multiple lines from Michelle Obama.
The Trump website was launched late Wednesday and replicates material on the copyrighted site of the Center for Presidential Transition, which is a project of the Washington-based nonpartisan Partnership for Public Service.
posted by zachlipton at 5:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
‘He Can Build a Wall, but We’ll Just Build a Tunnel’
“He can build a wall, but we’ll just build a tunnel,” said Magdaleno Santos, a Salvadorian man who arrived in the the United States illegally more than two decades ago, but adjusted his immigration status in the late 1990s. “If we leave, the entire country will fall apart. Have you looked around? Who do you think is building everything here? It’s the Latinos. American workers just want to walk around with a clipboard, sipping from their water bottles. They don’t want to do what we do.”posted by kirkaracha at 5:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
There is now a transcript up of Coach Pop's comments for those who can't listien to the audio.
I'm a huge San Antonio Spurs fan in large part because of Coach Pop's all around awesomeness. However, I have been heartbroken listening to him talk about the election prior to today. He has been wearing a "Vote for Pedro" shirt for his interviews, saying that the debates weren't worth watching and basically treating the whole thing as a joke. So, thanks for standing up for us now, I guess? His was a voice that would have been listened to. Wish he had said something when it mattered.
posted by colt45 at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm a huge San Antonio Spurs fan in large part because of Coach Pop's all around awesomeness. However, I have been heartbroken listening to him talk about the election prior to today. He has been wearing a "Vote for Pedro" shirt for his interviews, saying that the debates weren't worth watching and basically treating the whole thing as a joke. So, thanks for standing up for us now, I guess? His was a voice that would have been listened to. Wish he had said something when it mattered.
posted by colt45 at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Healthcare really is something Trump has put a lot of thought into
You can't really say someone has put a lot of thought into something if they've expressed views ranging from single-payer to pro-Obamacare to rabidly anti-Obamacare to repeal Obamacare but keep certain parts of it. That is the very definition of just going with whatever the last person you spoke to said.
He has no healthcare plan, and his multi-point PDF was soundly ridiculed as close to meaningless by every serious person who evaluated it. Right now, the things he's saying about healthcare are truly changing on a daily basis. There may possibly be some areas that are worth defending him on, but I really don't see why this is one.
posted by zachlipton at 5:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
You can't really say someone has put a lot of thought into something if they've expressed views ranging from single-payer to pro-Obamacare to rabidly anti-Obamacare to repeal Obamacare but keep certain parts of it. That is the very definition of just going with whatever the last person you spoke to said.
He has no healthcare plan, and his multi-point PDF was soundly ridiculed as close to meaningless by every serious person who evaluated it. Right now, the things he's saying about healthcare are truly changing on a daily basis. There may possibly be some areas that are worth defending him on, but I really don't see why this is one.
posted by zachlipton at 5:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Technology and automation are real things independent of policy. Haulage firms want rid of truck drivers...
Well yeah, not far from me is the cleared land were the sit down strike occurred in 37'. It's all gone and Kettering is building a automated village, interesting they have the only independent 4G network for a school, I think. Well, Cartage is a priority because the truck need to go in order to make this green auto thing work, personally, I can't see the earth producing 600 million new vechiles ever, well not in the conventional sense so yes, the lumber yards made way for the auto plants which is making way for automation/education. Its not really 'we should be like Tennesse' because we aren't. I heard Japanese industrial scholars lecture concluding America needs to work more like Japan, 1994.
They we're right. The non-sustainable
Models were correct that the worker was being paid more then the product is worth will not succeed, hence NAFTA, the bloodless UAW coup of 99', etc.
posted by clavdivs at 5:18 PM on November 11, 2016
Well yeah, not far from me is the cleared land were the sit down strike occurred in 37'. It's all gone and Kettering is building a automated village, interesting they have the only independent 4G network for a school, I think. Well, Cartage is a priority because the truck need to go in order to make this green auto thing work, personally, I can't see the earth producing 600 million new vechiles ever, well not in the conventional sense so yes, the lumber yards made way for the auto plants which is making way for automation/education. Its not really 'we should be like Tennesse' because we aren't. I heard Japanese industrial scholars lecture concluding America needs to work more like Japan, 1994.
They we're right. The non-sustainable
Models were correct that the worker was being paid more then the product is worth will not succeed, hence NAFTA, the bloodless UAW coup of 99', etc.
posted by clavdivs at 5:18 PM on November 11, 2016
“I can say all of my employees are having a tremendous problem with Obamacare,” Mr. Trump said. “You folks, this is another group. Is that a correct statement? I mean you look at what they’re going through. What they’re going through with their health care is horrible because of Obamacare. So we’ll repeal it and replace it.”Does this sound like the words of a man who has given literally any thought to healthcare policy at all?
...
Later, during an interview on Fox News, Mr. Trump said his employees don’t use the Affordable Care Act at all.
“I don’t use much Obamacare, to be honest with you,” he said. “I’m at Trump National Doral and we don’t use Obamacare. We don’t want it.”
posted by zachlipton at 5:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Why hasn't there been some kind of "Chris, yer fired" Celebrity Apprentice meme yet?
Probably because it's not a joke any more.
posted by bashos_frog at 5:25 PM on November 11, 2016
Probably because it's not a joke any more.
posted by bashos_frog at 5:25 PM on November 11, 2016
using .gov resources to list links to Melania's QVC jewelry line
HOLY SHIT. Is this real life?
posted by futz at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
HOLY SHIT. Is this real life?
posted by futz at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maddow just reported that Trump is already using .gov resources to list links to Melania's QVC jewelry
Hahaha. Oh God of course.
It's like the wall that housed the Overton window of acceptable presidential behavior been knocked off the house. It's now the Overton missing wall.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
Hahaha. Oh God of course.
It's like the wall that housed the Overton window of acceptable presidential behavior been knocked off the house. It's now the Overton missing wall.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
Donald Trump Doesn't Like This Any More Than You Do
I believe there's truth in that, and really don't think he wants the job. But what he does want, a lot, it to be respected and liked. My hope is that he can't sit still and let others make policy that makes him unpopular, because it's him that will get the blame, not his advisors.
posted by bongo_x at 5:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about ways to raise the stakes.
We've already got a bunch of states refusing to enforce federal drug policy, and we've seen many of the red states do their damnedest to avoid implementing the ACA. Let's raise the stakes, and pass a statement in the California legislature that federal laws that unfairly impact protected groups will be ignored. And when the highway funding is threatened, pass a law that federal taxes will be paid through the state government, minus a slice for the highways.
Obviously, individual laws would need a vote within the state, but let's make it clear that the Republicans are at risk of dissolving the republic.
Provoke outrage, outright.
Make it impossible to justify the cost of the fight.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
We've already got a bunch of states refusing to enforce federal drug policy, and we've seen many of the red states do their damnedest to avoid implementing the ACA. Let's raise the stakes, and pass a statement in the California legislature that federal laws that unfairly impact protected groups will be ignored. And when the highway funding is threatened, pass a law that federal taxes will be paid through the state government, minus a slice for the highways.
Obviously, individual laws would need a vote within the state, but let's make it clear that the Republicans are at risk of dissolving the republic.
Provoke outrage, outright.
Make it impossible to justify the cost of the fight.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
He also wants to make a lot of money. I think he's going to do that.
posted by Golem XIV at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Golem XIV at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
...it's incredibly sloppy.
I think this is the new normal and we can pretty much forget about all of the Obama classy style, the polish, and the thoughtful attention to detail. This kind of thing will be one of the most in your face reminders of the transition until/if the truly awful stuff goes down. There have been so many moments over the years where I've been impressed, grateful, humbled, or learned something from how Obama has responded to a situation. Let's just say I'm not expecting this from Trump.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think this is the new normal and we can pretty much forget about all of the Obama classy style, the polish, and the thoughtful attention to detail. This kind of thing will be one of the most in your face reminders of the transition until/if the truly awful stuff goes down. There have been so many moments over the years where I've been impressed, grateful, humbled, or learned something from how Obama has responded to a situation. Let's just say I'm not expecting this from Trump.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Can I just say that I'm glad y'all are still here? I for sure would have lost my sanity without all of you intelligently debating the aftermath of this gigantic clusterfuck. It gives me hope.
posted by monospace at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by monospace at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
In the same interview, Trump called national health care “an entitlement to this country if we’re going to have a great country.”
It's a pipe dream and I am inebriated but what if he's a deep cover Clinton agent who's going to carry on her will by acting in plain sight
she had to lose so she could win
posted by Apocryphon at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a pipe dream and I am inebriated but what if he's a deep cover Clinton agent who's going to carry on her will by acting in plain sight
she had to lose so she could win
posted by Apocryphon at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Obviously, individual laws would need a vote within the state, but let's make it clear that the Republicans are at risk of dissolving the republic.
Sanctuary states, baby
posted by Apocryphon at 5:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sanctuary states, baby
posted by Apocryphon at 5:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Screw Trevor Noah, screw this media
posted by Apocryphon at 5:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Obviously, individual laws would need a vote within the state, but let's make it clear that the Republicans are at risk of dissolving the republic.
But the Republicans are for states' rights, and the Republicans are honorable men.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maddow just reported that Trump is already using .gov resources to list links to Melania's QVC jewelry line and I said fuck really loud in a perfect blend of moan and yell.
And I got tears in my eyes. I mean...I knew he was in it to line his pockets but damn. I have no doubt at all that he gives zero fucks for healthcare policy, for job creation, for immigration. He is devoting 100% of his brain right now to figuring the money angles. This is what is going to get him impeached.
she had to lose so she could win
You know what would have been fucking great? If those assholes who didn't vote for her because she is a woman could have opened their eyes just a bit wider to see how terrible Trump was going to be at this job and how brilliant she would have been. Christ on a cracker I think I have entered the "anger" stage.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [39 favorites]
And I got tears in my eyes. I mean...I knew he was in it to line his pockets but damn. I have no doubt at all that he gives zero fucks for healthcare policy, for job creation, for immigration. He is devoting 100% of his brain right now to figuring the money angles. This is what is going to get him impeached.
she had to lose so she could win
You know what would have been fucking great? If those assholes who didn't vote for her because she is a woman could have opened their eyes just a bit wider to see how terrible Trump was going to be at this job and how brilliant she would have been. Christ on a cracker I think I have entered the "anger" stage.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [39 favorites]
Screw Trevor Noah, screw this media
Why is Trevor Noah wrong?
posted by zachlipton at 5:47 PM on November 11, 2016
Why is Trevor Noah wrong?
posted by zachlipton at 5:47 PM on November 11, 2016
Is there a Murder stage? I think I'm working on it.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 5:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't agree with protests that are so actively destructive that it leads to backlash, but most of the anti-Trump protests right now are not doing that at all (Portland notwithstanding). People are angry and they're expressing their anger, mostly non-violently. Trevor Noah's concern trolling is disgusting.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Trump is already using .gov resources to list links to Melania's QVC jewelry line
Third time I've laughed this week. The scriptwriters for 2016 have been terrible in regards to realism, but I'm glad they're using comic relief so frequently.
The protests have reached my part of the country in Kansas City. This is encouraging. Even if the protests don't accomplish anything directly, they're doing a lot to restore sanity and hope, especially mine.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Third time I've laughed this week. The scriptwriters for 2016 have been terrible in regards to realism, but I'm glad they're using comic relief so frequently.
The protests have reached my part of the country in Kansas City. This is encouraging. Even if the protests don't accomplish anything directly, they're doing a lot to restore sanity and hope, especially mine.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The NYT Ethics Guidelines state:
The goal of The New York Times is to cover the news as impartially as possible — “without fear or favor,” in the words of Adolph Ochs, our patriarch — and to treat readers, news sources, advertisers and others fairly and openly, and to be seen to be doing so. The reputation of The Times rests upon such perceptions, and so do the professional reputations of its staff members. Thus The Times and members of its news department and editorial page staff share an interest in avoiding conflicts of interest or an appearance of a conflict.
The Narrative
posted by whorl at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The goal of The New York Times is to cover the news as impartially as possible — “without fear or favor,” in the words of Adolph Ochs, our patriarch — and to treat readers, news sources, advertisers and others fairly and openly, and to be seen to be doing so. The reputation of The Times rests upon such perceptions, and so do the professional reputations of its staff members. Thus The Times and members of its news department and editorial page staff share an interest in avoiding conflicts of interest or an appearance of a conflict.
The Narrative
posted by whorl at 5:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Uh oh, Kirkaracha. You wrote it, I favorited it. Think we are on a list now?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
It must be noted that the "Trump voters" are an odd coalition of multiple groups with conflicting interests (if I miss any, let me know):
There's one I wonder about. Adam Cadre said something once that I was kind of worried about way back a million threads ago:
posted by jackbishop at 5:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
There's one I wonder about. Adam Cadre said something once that I was kind of worried about way back a million threads ago:
A lot of people are stupid. To them the government is just a sort of reality show. To them politicians are just celebrities who show up in different timeslots from the actors and sports stars.... low-information voters do not realize that government actually affects our day-to-day lives. They do not connect the experience of sitting around the kitchen table trying to pay the bills with the earnest men on the television set talking about sitting around the kitchen table trying to pay the bills.This year politics has been louder than usual, but it seems that there are always people around who "don't care about politics" but then go and vote anyways. Celebrities are catnip to those folks. Worked for Jesse Ventura, worked for Arnold Schwarzenegger, worked for Ronald Reagan.
posted by jackbishop at 5:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
That Melania thing - is it the the greatagain.gov bio of Melania? I just looked at that page and it doesn't have any actual links. It's her bio. Is there a page with an actual link? I can't stand Trump and her and anybody who likes em, I just want to have the story correct. Is there another page Maddow was talking about?
posted by cashman at 5:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by cashman at 5:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Daniel Dale: Racist incidents, policy uncertainty dominate news since Trump’s victory
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Fear, hate, retaliation and uncertainty have marked the three chaotic days since the stunning election victory of Donald Trump, with the jubilation of his larger-than-expected, largely white legion of supporters mixed with the horror of many members of racial and religious minority groups.Greeeeaaaat. You know the number one quality I look for when shopping for Presidents is "uncertainty." I love an unpredictable, uncontrollable person in the Oval Office-- it makes me feel so safe and secure.
Trump has not directly addressed a spate of hate incidents. He and his team, though, have already signalled that he is planning to backtrack on several major policy pledges, from scrapping Obamacare to forcing Mexico to pay for a giant wall on its border, adding to the feeling of a country unsettled.
What is obvious: Barack Obama’s policy legacy is in grave danger. What isn’t obvious: which of Trump’s promises he intends to even try to carry out.
“I don’t think anybody, except in his most inner circle, really knows. And even there, probably not,” said Joel Aberbach, political science professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
I wonder how much richer Trump will be after four years of funneling public money into his own pockets
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The most uplifting message I've seen so far was a photograph of a protestor holding a sign that said: if he builds a wall we'll teach our children to tear it down.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
posted by lydhre at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yes. Yes. Yes.
posted by lydhre at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Oy, the QVC thing.
At this rate, he might get impeached before he's sworn in.
posted by notyou at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
At this rate, he might get impeached before he's sworn in.
posted by notyou at 5:57 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't agree with protests that are so actively destructive that it leads to backlash, but most of the anti-Trump protests right now are not doing that at all (Portland notwithstanding). People are angry and they're expressing their anger, mostly non-violently. Trevor Noah's concern trolling is disgusting.
I have zero problem, and am in fact in favor of, people expressing their anger non-violently. He starts by saying "I'm glad people are protesting" and later says "so protest." The vast vast majority of people protesting aren't misbehaving, and good people are trying to clean up after those who are. It's a rather small number among thousands, but when those individuals do stuff like smash the windows of Oaklandish, a minority woman-owned B-corp clothing line that employs 50 people in Oakland to manufacture locally, they're ruining the message (a number of actual protesters called for them to stop, of course).
I don't have much confidence Trevor Noah's message is likely to reach the handful of people doing this vandalism, and I think he could have done more to emphasize that the destruction is being done by a very small number of people within much larger peaceful protests, but I don't think taking literally 49 seconds to say that everyone should try to keep things peaceful is something inherently disgusting.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have zero problem, and am in fact in favor of, people expressing their anger non-violently. He starts by saying "I'm glad people are protesting" and later says "so protest." The vast vast majority of people protesting aren't misbehaving, and good people are trying to clean up after those who are. It's a rather small number among thousands, but when those individuals do stuff like smash the windows of Oaklandish, a minority woman-owned B-corp clothing line that employs 50 people in Oakland to manufacture locally, they're ruining the message (a number of actual protesters called for them to stop, of course).
I don't have much confidence Trevor Noah's message is likely to reach the handful of people doing this vandalism, and I think he could have done more to emphasize that the destruction is being done by a very small number of people within much larger peaceful protests, but I don't think taking literally 49 seconds to say that everyone should try to keep things peaceful is something inherently disgusting.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there a Murder stage? I think I'm working on it.
deep within the bowels of Langley, an odd little phrase repeatedly and insistently thrusts itself into the internal dialog of a balding, sweaty operative.
'wet work'.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:10 PM on November 11, 2016
deep within the bowels of Langley, an odd little phrase repeatedly and insistently thrusts itself into the internal dialog of a balding, sweaty operative.
'wet work'.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:10 PM on November 11, 2016
Source besides Maddow on the .gov QVC thing? Can't find anything online.
posted by agregoli at 6:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 6:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hah. What if he really is broke and now here he is with the most powerful position on the planet, sorta by accident, and no clear way to quickly monetize it. Imagine him thrashing about, looking for angles and being met with a lot of "Sorry, sirs..." at every turn.
That'd be some deal with the devil level irony.
posted by notyou at 6:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
That'd be some deal with the devil level irony.
posted by notyou at 6:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
All I am seeing on "Meet the Future First Lady" page is this: She also runs her own jewelry line called Melania Timepieces & Fashion Jewelry and sells on QVC. No link, just a statement.
I also note they removed the part about her graduating from college.
I also note they removed the part about her graduating from college.
Mrs. Trump began a modeling career at age 16 and signed with a modeling agency in Milan. She would pursue a degree at the University of Ljubljana in Slovenia, but paused her studies to advance her modeling career in Milan and Paris, before moving to New York in 1996. She has appeared on the covers of a host of prominent magazines including the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, Vanity Fair, GQ, and others. She has appeared in television commercials for large corporate brands, and on popular television shows such as The View and The Celebrity Apprentice.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:13 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That'd be some deal with the devil level irony.
I think I need to see that scene paired with some Rod Serling narration as the camera pulls back...
posted by Servo5678 at 6:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think I need to see that scene paired with some Rod Serling narration as the camera pulls back...
posted by Servo5678 at 6:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
You clearly didn't listen to Trevor Noah, because your key word "mostly" is precisely the problem to which he's referring. We don't need or want mostly non-violent protests.
It's condescending as hell, since with the exception of Portland, the protests have thus far been orderly and peaceful. Yes, it's important to not be violent in protests, to cross the line from demonstration to riot. But that bit was finger-wagging, especially when he called burning effigies "not what American democracy is all about." Did we not have flag burning substantiated as free speech?
posted by Apocryphon at 6:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's condescending as hell, since with the exception of Portland, the protests have thus far been orderly and peaceful. Yes, it's important to not be violent in protests, to cross the line from demonstration to riot. But that bit was finger-wagging, especially when he called burning effigies "not what American democracy is all about." Did we not have flag burning substantiated as free speech?
posted by Apocryphon at 6:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
If they save Trump would he turn the revenge up to 11 and destroy the GOP from the inside just for spite?
Yes, Trump will never forget the people who opposed him in the primary. He is a world championship powerlifter at the art of carrying a grudge. He will never forget and he will burn down their worlds even if his catches fire too when he gets a chance. He's done it over and over already.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, Trump will never forget the people who opposed him in the primary. He is a world championship powerlifter at the art of carrying a grudge. He will never forget and he will burn down their worlds even if his catches fire too when he gets a chance. He's done it over and over already.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:17 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Some excellent graphics from the Washington Post on the margin of victory: 107,000 people in three states, or 0.09% of all votes cast in this election, decided the winner.
And even more excellent graphics on turnout in West Philadelphia and elsewhere:
posted by zachlipton at 6:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
And even more excellent graphics on turnout in West Philadelphia and elsewhere:
In face of this evidence, it’s hard to pin Clinton’s defeat on a single factor. There was a turnout problem — the declines in Democratic votes in African American neighborhoods reflect her inability to excite that portion of her base, not a swing toward Trump — a fact that’s reinforced by exit polling among that group.This analysis, of course, also omits voter suppression.
But it certainly wasn’t only a turnout problem. Exit polls show Clinton losing badly among less-educated, working-class whites — a large swath of the American population with whom Obama did much better. As a result, states in the upper Midwest that Obama carried and were expected to go to Clinton fell to Trump.
posted by zachlipton at 6:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [22 favorites]
Re: Melania Trump and QVC, who knows where Maddow came up with that, because a simple search for "trump qvc" pulled up this along with a couple other items saying basically the same thing: Melania's products are no longer being sold on the web.
posted by littlecatfeet at 6:25 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by littlecatfeet at 6:25 PM on November 11, 2016
I don't have a strong view on Trevor Noah in general, but it is not great for him to be characterizing burning effigies as violence. Hell, it doesn't even qualify as civil disobedience, unless in some vague "incidentally violating a fire code" way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I really, really hope that the poor benighted souls who thought their jobs were coming back once their guy got into office are not holding their breath.
Lexington-Heald Leader: McConnell: It’s ‘hard to tell’ if ending ‘war on coal’ will bring back jobs
This analysis, of course, also omits voter suppression.
Yeah I had to turn off Politico's Nerdcast because they were far too chipper and because they examined in depth Clinton's "problems" with voters only "liking her not loving her" and then capped it off by talking about the turnout problem without once mentioning voter suppression.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Lexington-Heald Leader: McConnell: It’s ‘hard to tell’ if ending ‘war on coal’ will bring back jobs
If I win we’re going to bring those miners back,” Trump said at the rally. “…These ridiculous rules and regulations that make it impossible for you to compete … we’re going to take that all off the table, folks.”
With Trump’s election and Republicans controlling both chambers of Congress, many in Kentucky are now waiting to cash in on the Republican promise of more coal jobs.
U.S. Sen. Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, though, wasn’t making any promises Friday.
“We are going to be presenting to the new president a variety of options that could end this assault,” McConnell said at the University of Louisville. “Whether that immediately brings business back is hard to tell because it’s a private sector activity.”
The interim president of the Kentucky Coal Association was more direct about the future of coal mining in Eastern Kentucky.
“I would not expect to see a lot of growth because of the Trump presidency,” Nick Carter said in an interview. “If there is any growth in Eastern Kentucky, it will be because of an improved economy for coal.”
This analysis, of course, also omits voter suppression.
Yeah I had to turn off Politico's Nerdcast because they were far too chipper and because they examined in depth Clinton's "problems" with voters only "liking her not loving her" and then capped it off by talking about the turnout problem without once mentioning voter suppression.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
NYTimes Donald Trump Prepares for White House Move, but His Tower May Still Beckon
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
Mr. Trump, a homebody who often flew several hours late at night during the campaign so he could wake up in his own bed in Trump Tower, is talking with his advisers about how many nights a week he will spend in the White House. He has told them he would like to do what he is used to, which is spending time in New York when he can.I forsee one big problem here. What will he talk about at his rallies? He can't continue to talk about locking up corrupt Hillary. He can't talk about building a wall or repealing and replacing ObamaCare. He can't talk about draining the swamp. He can't talk about putting the coal miners back to work. He is going to have to come up with some new material.
The future first lady, Melania Trump, expects to move to Washington. But the couple’s 10-year-old son, Barron, is midway through a school year in New York, and it is unclear when the move would happen.
The questions reflect what Mr. Trump’s advisers described as the president-elect’s coming to grips with the fact that his life is about to change radically. They say that Mr. Trump, who was shocked when he won the election, might spend most of the week in Washington, much like members of Congress, and return to Trump Tower or his golf course in Bedminster, N.J., or his Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach on weekends.[..]
His aides say he has also expressed interest in continuing to hold the large rallies that were a staple of his candidacy. He likes the instant gratification and adulation that the cheering crowds provide, and his aides are discussing how they might accommodate his demand.
“I think Trump has discovered that these rallies are tremendous opportunities for him to get his message out,”
Not least, Mr. Trump is finding Twitter a familiar comfort, although it is unclear if he will be the first president to wholly control his own Twitter account once he is in the White House. “I know they’re willing to be unorthodox and want to be true to themselves and not fall into a habit of let’s just follow precedent on what’s been done,” said Mike DuHaime, an adviser to Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who supported Mr. Trump shortly after ending his own White House bid and who stepped back as the head of the president-elect’s transition team on Friday."they’re willing to be unorthodox and want to be true to themselves and not fall into a habit of let’s just follow precedent " is just code for "We can't control the giant orange toddler-- he is going to do whatever the hell he wants to do."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
Meh. Voter suppression is part of the landscape in the U.S., like gerrymandering, etc. I'd Green party friends in grad school in New Jersey who complained frequently about the voter suppression by the Democrats. And the Clinton campaign used it against Bernie no doubt.
Is there any evidence the voter suppression was that much more effective in 2016 than in 2012 or 2008? Actually there is evidence quoted up thread that the "GOP controls 33 state legislatures (66%)", thus giving them more power to suppress voters, but the second half of that statement is "Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments." If that happen, then it's game over for many progressive causes.
Ain't voter suppression that wins the GOP those few remaining state legislatures. It'll be internal corruption and hippie punching by the Democrats, along with fair even-handed Koch brothers' funding bringing out conservative political talent.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on November 11, 2016
Is there any evidence the voter suppression was that much more effective in 2016 than in 2012 or 2008? Actually there is evidence quoted up thread that the "GOP controls 33 state legislatures (66%)", thus giving them more power to suppress voters, but the second half of that statement is "Creeping up on the 75% for constitutional amendments." If that happen, then it's game over for many progressive causes.
Ain't voter suppression that wins the GOP those few remaining state legislatures. It'll be internal corruption and hippie punching by the Democrats, along with fair even-handed Koch brothers' funding bringing out conservative political talent.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on November 11, 2016
He is going to have to come up with some new material.
*shudder*
posted by gatorae at 6:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
*shudder*
posted by gatorae at 6:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Hill: Clinton aides blame FBI director, media for devastating loss
posted by zachlipton at 6:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Top aides to Hillary Clinton are blaming FBI Director James Comey and the media for the Democrat’s devastating loss in the presidential election.There's a certain lack of introspection about the Clinton campaign and American people that's dearly needed and missing here, this is not entirely the fault of external factors, but you know, I don't think they're not entirely wrong either.
Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta, communications director Jennifer Palmieri and other Clinton aides sought to provide explanations during a private conference call Thursday with supporters of the Democratic nominee for a loss that to many came out of nowhere.
They were pressed on the call for answers and insight from supporters stung by the surprise loss. At one point on the call, Podesta noted that Comey is the guy “who we think may have cost us the election,” according to one Clinton surrogate who relayed details about the call to The Hill.
...
Aides also blamed the media for the loss. “The media always covered her as the person who would be president and therefore tried to eviscerate her before the election, but covered Trump who was someone who was entertaining and sort of gave him a pass,” Podesta said. “We need to reflect and analyze that and put our voices forward.”
posted by zachlipton at 6:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
And the Clinton campaign used it against Bernie no doubt.
Cite?
posted by neroli at 6:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cite?
posted by neroli at 6:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
: Graham: Cruz should be on Supreme Court shortlist.
Graham followed his statement with, "Or Pontifex Maximus. Whatever's clever."[fake]
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Graham followed his statement with, "Or Pontifex Maximus. Whatever's clever."[fake]
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mr. Trump, a homebody who often flew several hours late at night during the campaign so he could wake up in his own bed in Trump Tower, is talking with his advisers about how many nights a week he will spend in the White House.
I hate being right about everything. I hope it stops soon.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
I hate being right about everything. I hope it stops soon.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
.. that these rallies are tremendous opportunities for him to get his message out,”
I forsee one big problem here. What will he talk about at his rallies?
I'd guess maybe some more dog whistling via Blue Lives Matter, tough on crime, safety, law and order, etc. A new war on drugs? War on illegal guns? War on [code word for minorities].
posted by p3t3 at 6:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I forsee one big problem here. What will he talk about at his rallies?
I'd guess maybe some more dog whistling via Blue Lives Matter, tough on crime, safety, law and order, etc. A new war on drugs? War on illegal guns? War on [code word for minorities].
posted by p3t3 at 6:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mr. Trump, a homebody who often flew several hours late at night during the campaign so he could wake up in his own bed in Trump Tower, is talking with his advisers about how many nights a week he will spend in the White House. He has told them he would like to do what he is used to, which is spending time in New York when he can.
I was talking about this with a coworker the other day and predicted this would happen. Remember all the talk about how Obama was golfing all the time? Even though Dubya had like three times as much vacation? Yeah, now this motherfucker wants to literally phone the job in from Manhattan. Do they build a SCIF in his linen closet? Or does he think you can just have your Vice President take your Presidentin' shifts for you two or three times a week like he works at a fucking KFC?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
I was talking about this with a coworker the other day and predicted this would happen. Remember all the talk about how Obama was golfing all the time? Even though Dubya had like three times as much vacation? Yeah, now this motherfucker wants to literally phone the job in from Manhattan. Do they build a SCIF in his linen closet? Or does he think you can just have your Vice President take your Presidentin' shifts for you two or three times a week like he works at a fucking KFC?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:50 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
And the Clinton campaign used it against Bernie no doubt.
Is there any evidence the voter suppression was that much more effective in 2016 than in 2012 or 2008?
No doubt? Fucking a metric shit ton of doubt here so unless you have evidence I'm calling bullshit.
As far as the second part, I know you just want Clinton to be at fault and there to be no excuses for her, but maybe you've heard of the Voting Rights Act? And how it was gutted by the USSC and Roberts? 900 polling stations closed in minority neighborhoods. Voter ID passed in Wisconsin that disenfranchised 300,000? Polls to the Souls on the last Sunday before the election shut down in North Carolina as well as more restricted hours and locations. Etc. etc. Yeah, there's a metric shit-ton of evidence that voter suppression was much worse than 2012 or 2008.
posted by chris24 at 6:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [54 favorites]
Is there any evidence the voter suppression was that much more effective in 2016 than in 2012 or 2008?
No doubt? Fucking a metric shit ton of doubt here so unless you have evidence I'm calling bullshit.
As far as the second part, I know you just want Clinton to be at fault and there to be no excuses for her, but maybe you've heard of the Voting Rights Act? And how it was gutted by the USSC and Roberts? 900 polling stations closed in minority neighborhoods. Voter ID passed in Wisconsin that disenfranchised 300,000? Polls to the Souls on the last Sunday before the election shut down in North Carolina as well as more restricted hours and locations. Etc. etc. Yeah, there's a metric shit-ton of evidence that voter suppression was much worse than 2012 or 2008.
posted by chris24 at 6:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [54 favorites]
i wasn't going to comment but that link "donald trump doesn't like this anymore than you do" ... my god, he looks like a deer caught in the headlights
i'd be laughing my ass off if it weren't for our being caught in the headlights, too
that is a scared and woefully unprepared man
and mitch mcconnell looks quite amused at trump's obvious discomfort
donnie, didn't anyone ever tell you what oscar wilde said?
"There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.”
posted by pyramid termite at 6:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
i'd be laughing my ass off if it weren't for our being caught in the headlights, too
that is a scared and woefully unprepared man
and mitch mcconnell looks quite amused at trump's obvious discomfort
donnie, didn't anyone ever tell you what oscar wilde said?
"There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.”
posted by pyramid termite at 6:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Re: T wanting to spend as much time as possible in NYC, that means part of Fifth Ave is going to be permanently off limits. The already highly militarized NYPD is gonna love it. Not sure about the locals.
posted by monospace at 7:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by monospace at 7:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'd Green party friends in grad school in New Jersey who complained frequently about the voter suppression by the Democrats. And the Clinton campaign used it against Bernie no doubt.
What are you on about? Do you even know what voter suppression is? How are the Democrats alleged to have suppressed the vote in New Jersey of all places?
posted by Justinian at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
What are you on about? Do you even know what voter suppression is? How are the Democrats alleged to have suppressed the vote in New Jersey of all places?
posted by Justinian at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
From the article linked by Secret Life of Gravy:
posted by stopgap at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The questions reflect what Mr. Trump’s advisers described as the president-elect’s coming to grips with the fact that his life is about to change radically. They say that Mr. Trump, who was shocked when he won the election...Crazy conspiracy theory: Trump never really wanted to be president, so he encourages some faithless electors to switch their votes. He doesn't have to govern, and he can keep holding rallies proclaiming that the system is rigged while promoting Trump TV. On the other hand, he can probably make a ton of money while being president with his holdings in the "blind" trust so he'll probably just do that.
posted by stopgap at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Mr. Trump, a homebody who often flew several hours late at night during the campaign so he could wake up in his own bed in Trump Tower, is talking with his advisers about how many nights a week he will spend in the White House. He has told them he would like to do what he is used to, which is spending time in New York when he can.
Well, NYC used to be our nation's capital 300+ years ago. Part of this whole MAGA thing could be to bring that back, this time in the form of a gaudy, glittering, brass-plated tower smack on Fifth Avenue.
posted by mochapickle at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016
Well, NYC used to be our nation's capital 300+ years ago. Part of this whole MAGA thing could be to bring that back, this time in the form of a gaudy, glittering, brass-plated tower smack on Fifth Avenue.
posted by mochapickle at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016
An important thread by @editoremilye: I worked for Congress for 6 years, and here's what I learned about how they listen to constituents.
In short: don't bother tweeting at them, call their district office, better yet: get lots of people to call their district office at once, get a group to show up at town hall meetings and ask questions, invite local Congressional staffers to your advocacy events.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
In short: don't bother tweeting at them, call their district office, better yet: get lots of people to call their district office at once, get a group to show up at town hall meetings and ask questions, invite local Congressional staffers to your advocacy events.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
I live not too far from Trump Tower. I won't be thrilled if our neighborhood becomes a permanent police state.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Re: T wanting to spend as much time as possible in NYC, that means part of Fifth Ave is going to be permanently off limits. The already highly militarized NYPD is gonna love it. Not sure about the locals.
If he's in NYC every weekend, New Yorkers are going to fucking hate him even more than they do now. When the president is in town it's typically a clusterfuck with traffic, security, etc. The people in Trump Tower and nearby are really going to be pissed and miserable.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
If he's in NYC every weekend, New Yorkers are going to fucking hate him even more than they do now. When the president is in town it's typically a clusterfuck with traffic, security, etc. The people in Trump Tower and nearby are really going to be pissed and miserable.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Maybe they can keep that protective wall of garbage trucks though.
posted by monospace at 7:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by monospace at 7:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If he's in NYC every weekend, New Yorkers are going to fucking hate him even more than they do now. When the president is in town it's typically a clusterfuck with traffic, security, etc. The people in Trump Tower and nearby are really going to be pissed and miserable.
I except also dealing with disruptions from protests.
posted by Jalliah at 7:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
And Joy Reid.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Coventry, in what sense do his past statements about supporting single-payer in any way mean he has thought a lot about his current plan which has no relationship with single payer?Probably in the wishful-thinking sense. Never mind.
posted by Coventry at 7:14 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
When the president is in town it's typically a clusterfuck with traffic, security, etc.
Remember when Bill Clinton shut down LAX for an hour to get a haircut? (Except that he didn't?)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Remember when Bill Clinton shut down LAX for an hour to get a haircut? (Except that he didn't?)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
What will he talk about at his rallies?
The media, in their pen at the back.
Not that we needed telling, but he clearly has no idea of what the job entails, and we have no idea how that will play out. Pence's pocket constitution (the one with all the equal protection bits crossed out) is surely now creased to open at Amendment XXV.
posted by holgate at 7:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The media, in their pen at the back.
Not that we needed telling, but he clearly has no idea of what the job entails, and we have no idea how that will play out. Pence's pocket constitution (the one with all the equal protection bits crossed out) is surely now creased to open at Amendment XXV.
posted by holgate at 7:18 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Really, one of the only comforting things for me has been thinking that, as these new revelations suggest, he's really not in it for the power (except the power to line his pockets and fuck over his adversaries) but for attention and stirring shit, etc. It really is a "media personality" thing; he seems to want to be a global Rush Limbaugh where he gets to stand at a mike or tweet out giant steaming piles of bloviating bullshit that makes everybody either fall on his dick or froth at the mouth in rage -- but not ever actually have to, you know, DO anything. Just flap his jaw and have photo ops.
If he was pursuing the presidency primarily for the power (like a normal politician), then he'd surely seek a second term. But this stuff gives me hope that he'll just coast through the four years, get bored, and move on. And no, I don't relish the idea of Acting President Pence or Ryan or whoever -- they are terrible dangerous people, but an absentee, disengaged Trump is safer for this nation and the world than a present, engaged one.
I'm not surprised and fairly troubled about his plans for regular rallies. Now that his most motivated followers have been "unshackled," as we've seen this week, if he fails to follow through on the hate-filled policies and laws he has promised them, they'll be quite glad to take on some of that fine work themselves at a practical grassroots level, even more so because any frustration they feel at him breaking his promises will get vented at their targets rather than their Dear Leader. And he's going to keep stoking those flames and give them additional targets? Swell.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
If he was pursuing the presidency primarily for the power (like a normal politician), then he'd surely seek a second term. But this stuff gives me hope that he'll just coast through the four years, get bored, and move on. And no, I don't relish the idea of Acting President Pence or Ryan or whoever -- they are terrible dangerous people, but an absentee, disengaged Trump is safer for this nation and the world than a present, engaged one.
I'm not surprised and fairly troubled about his plans for regular rallies. Now that his most motivated followers have been "unshackled," as we've seen this week, if he fails to follow through on the hate-filled policies and laws he has promised them, they'll be quite glad to take on some of that fine work themselves at a practical grassroots level, even more so because any frustration they feel at him breaking his promises will get vented at their targets rather than their Dear Leader. And he's going to keep stoking those flames and give them additional targets? Swell.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
There is never only one reason for a loss like this, there are hundreds of ways things went wrong.
On the one hand, the margin of victory was very slim. On the other hand, it was Donald Fucking J Trump. He's the worst. He should've been destroyed and sent back to Hell where he belongs. I'm so damn angry that didn't happen, but as I just said, there are a lot of reasons why it didn't. I don't think any of even the large themes tells the story accurately.
In some ways, Trump and Clinton are mirror images-- she's a horrible politician but would've lead the country brilliantly. He has insanely good (and evil) political instincts, but zero ability to succeed in his new role.
A friend was saying the other day, well Trump didn't even want to be president, so he won't really embrace this role. I disagree-- power corrupts, and he will be drunk with it as soon as he learns how to wield the immense power he's just gained.
posted by cell divide at 7:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, the margin of victory was very slim. On the other hand, it was Donald Fucking J Trump. He's the worst. He should've been destroyed and sent back to Hell where he belongs. I'm so damn angry that didn't happen, but as I just said, there are a lot of reasons why it didn't. I don't think any of even the large themes tells the story accurately.
In some ways, Trump and Clinton are mirror images-- she's a horrible politician but would've lead the country brilliantly. He has insanely good (and evil) political instincts, but zero ability to succeed in his new role.
A friend was saying the other day, well Trump didn't even want to be president, so he won't really embrace this role. I disagree-- power corrupts, and he will be drunk with it as soon as he learns how to wield the immense power he's just gained.
posted by cell divide at 7:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
At least one of the women who accused Trump of sexual assault isn't going away:
In her most recent statement, Zervos said she was the target of abuse and harassment after Mr Trump called her a liar. She did not specify from whom she received abuse, or imply that Mr Trump or anyone from his team deliberately orchestrated it.posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
She asked him to retract his statement. "Even though is hard and painful to go up against the most powerful man, I will continue to speak the truth and I refuse to be intimidated into silence."
she's a horrible politician
She was a senator from New York and a fairly successful Secretary of State.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
She was a senator from New York and a fairly successful Secretary of State.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
Why Did Some White Obama Voters Go for Trump?: Trump gave them a choice between multiracial democracy and white primacy.
"During the 2008 election, FiveThirtyEight relayed an anecdote from the campaign trail:
posted by chris24 at 7:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
"During the 2008 election, FiveThirtyEight relayed an anecdote from the campaign trail:
So a canvasser goes to a woman’s door in Washington, Pennsylvania. Knocks. Woman answers. Knocker asks who she’s planning to vote for. She isn’t sure, has to ask her husband who she’s voting for. Husband is off in another room watching some game. Canvasser hears him yell back, “We’re votin’ for the n***er!” Woman turns back to canvasser, and says brightly and matter of factly: “We’re voting for the n***er.”At the time, this was presented as an anecdote about Barack Obama’s popularity—about the possibility of racial solidarity. With hindsight, we know that reading was wrong. What this suggests, in truth, is that these voters tolerated Obama as the best available choice. He wasn’t a transformative figure; he didn’t signify a change of heart. At most, he wasn’t George W. Bush. At best, he was “one of the good ones,” someone they could respect, even if they viewed his group with fear and suspicion. And four years later, he wasn’t Mitt Romney, a man who embodied plutocracy in approach, affect, and attitude. These Americans voted for Obama and kept the white racial frame that shaped their understanding of their place in this country."
posted by chris24 at 7:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
The rally thing is interesting, I mean, in theory, a president holding regular speech events with a crowd of citizens could be a positive, but, obviously, since this is Trump, it'll be something wholly different than calming and informative. Given Trump's proclivities so far, the biggest concern will be that every major event that comes up during his presidency will become the main topic at the next rally. That might be fine for some small domestic "success", but it could be disastrous in any civil unrest events or in foreign relations since Trump needs to wind his crowd up for the rally to work for him. And to wind the crowd up he needs excess and villains. Trying to conduct foreign policy while yelling about the other countries and leaders at his rallies is a real danger. I can only imagine how he'd react, say, to some incident between China and Japan involving potential US military interests. Even thinking about something like discussions around brexit and the European Union could cause some real damage in relationships, especially given the people who will be setting his policies and his friendships overseas. I don't FDR's fireside chats is the working model here unfortunately.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 7:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
she's a horrible politician
She won the popular vote by 1-2%, more than 3 men who assumed the presidency in the last 50 years. She did so despite unprecedented coordinated attacks on her by Russia and Wikileaks, and unprecedented interference and intentional ratfucking from the FBI. Plus 30 years of Republican smears and slanders. Not to mention a media complicit in that. Oh and let's not forget misogyny.
And the awful Trump who should have been easily crushed? Crushed everybody easily in the "deepest bench ever" Republican primary.
She may not be perfect, she may not be Obama, hell, she may not be even Bill, but she is not a horrible politician.
posted by chris24 at 7:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [87 favorites]
She won the popular vote by 1-2%, more than 3 men who assumed the presidency in the last 50 years. She did so despite unprecedented coordinated attacks on her by Russia and Wikileaks, and unprecedented interference and intentional ratfucking from the FBI. Plus 30 years of Republican smears and slanders. Not to mention a media complicit in that. Oh and let's not forget misogyny.
And the awful Trump who should have been easily crushed? Crushed everybody easily in the "deepest bench ever" Republican primary.
She may not be perfect, she may not be Obama, hell, she may not be even Bill, but she is not a horrible politician.
posted by chris24 at 7:31 PM on November 11, 2016 [87 favorites]
It's going to be awful difficult to talk about how Clinton lost, or why her campaign lost, if doing so continues to provoke the sort of defensive reaction that made us a pro-Hillary echo chamber to begin with.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
that made us a pro-Hillary echo chamber to begin with.
Read through this thread, or any of the primary threads. There were plenty of folks who criticized her.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Read through this thread, or any of the primary threads. There were plenty of folks who criticized her.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
She was the only. sane. choice. Our fucked up media environment flushed the future down the toilet and filmed it for a prime-time special. Very seriously.
There's as much hope to fix that as there is that The Queen will say "y'know what - I'm out. Y'all on y'own"
It's just you and me now, wild blue interwebs. . .
posted by petebest at 7:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's as much hope to fix that as there is that The Queen will say "y'know what - I'm out. Y'all on y'own"
It's just you and me now, wild blue interwebs. . .
posted by petebest at 7:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Maybe there could be a separate thread for post-mortem dissection of Hillary's campaign, leaving this one for news and discussion about the after effects of the election.
posted by Superplin at 7:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Superplin at 7:43 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's going to be awful difficult to talk about how Clinton lost, or why her campaign lost, if doing so continues to provoke the sort of defensive reaction that made us a pro-Hillary echo chamber to begin with.
Then maybe people cannot go immediately to "she's a horrible politician" like it's written on fucking tablet and accepted fact.
posted by chris24 at 7:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Then maybe people cannot go immediately to "she's a horrible politician" like it's written on fucking tablet and accepted fact.
posted by chris24 at 7:44 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
I feel like the post-mortem discussion thread would be better framed around the articles that are surely coming in the next week or so on where her campaign went wrong than just around "Clinton lost. What's wrong with her?"
posted by zachlipton at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Two wild theories on T staying in NY a couple times a week.
1) Mistress. Easy to pull off when you own the building and have private elevators and secondary apartments, not so easy in the White House. White House means spending time with his family every single night (ick!)
2) His alleged hair system. Apparently the medical office for a high end hair system company is right below his office in Trump Tower and has a private entrance. Adjustment/maintenance without appearing in WH visitor logs?
posted by bluecore at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
1) Mistress. Easy to pull off when you own the building and have private elevators and secondary apartments, not so easy in the White House. White House means spending time with his family every single night (ick!)
2) His alleged hair system. Apparently the medical office for a high end hair system company is right below his office in Trump Tower and has a private entrance. Adjustment/maintenance without appearing in WH visitor logs?
posted by bluecore at 7:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
I have no problem with criticizing Clinton, but criticize things, actions, etc. Don't make blanket statements like she's horrible. That's not helpful or informative.
posted by chris24 at 7:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 7:48 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's going to be awful difficult to talk about how Clinton lost, or why her campaign lost, if doing so continues to provoke the sort of defensive reaction that made us a pro-Hillary echo chamber to begin with.
I agree, obviously. I felt like in many of these threads when I said this feels like Brexit, or that Clinton was having trouble defining herself and her campaign, that dozens of people immediately pointed out how wrong I was. Which was probably true, in many ways, but still it does feel to me, and I guess at least one other person, that the discussion here has felt like it was taking place in a bubble. A great bubble full of people smarter than I am, but still somewhat unwilling to consider that Clinton wasn't succeeding the way she needed to.
She was a senator from New York and a fairly successful Secretary of State.
She may not be perfect, she may not be Obama, hell, she may not be even Bill, but she is not a horrible politician.
I wasn't talking about her success as a Senator or as Sec. of State. I meant she's not very good at campaigning. She didn't inspire people. She didn't say anything anyone could remember except for "basket of deplorables" which is poetic and an amazing turn of phrase but not good for getting votes.
Then maybe people cannot go immediately to "she's a horrible politician" like it's written on fucking tablet and accepted fact.
She's been in the public eye for 30 years and has some of the lowest positives of any politician out there. It's not an indictment on who she is as a person, it's how she comes across to the voters. And yes, the voters are often deplorable but that's not the game here, the game is to win the election and she failed against Donald Fucking Trump!
posted by cell divide at 7:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
NSA OFFICER SMITH: Would you like another day off, Mr. President. Shall I tell Vice-President Pence to step in, like yesterday?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes. Wake me at 10.
a day in the life
posted by philip-random at 7:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes. Wake me at 10.
a day in the life
posted by philip-random at 7:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
We can at least critique the choices her campaign made. Can we at least futilely circlejerk about who would have made a better veep than Kaine?
posted by Apocryphon at 7:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
David Plouffe: What I Got Wrong About the Election: IT REALLY WAS A CHANGE ELECTION The voters were serious about that. And there was only one change candidate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
the game is to win the election and she failed against Donald Fucking Trump!
yeah, if by she you mean we, she did. She beat Bernie Sanders and then she lost to Donald Trump. I would say it was because the latter was a harder opponent to win against but that's only based on what happened. so hey.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
yeah, if by she you mean we, she did. She beat Bernie Sanders and then she lost to Donald Trump. I would say it was because the latter was a harder opponent to win against but that's only based on what happened. so hey.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
the game is to win the election and she failed against Donald Fucking Trump!
...or a fraction of a percent of the racists in this country were in damnably inconvenient places.
posted by Mooski at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
...or a fraction of a percent of the racists in this country were in damnably inconvenient places.
posted by Mooski at 7:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
She's been in the public eye for 30 years and has some of the lowest positives of any politician out there.
Bullshit. She was in the high 60s when she was SOS. There's been numerous articles on how she's popular as hell when working at a job, but hated when trying for a new one. Because those damn striving women don't ya know.
America loves women like Hillary Clinton–as long as they’re not asking for a promotion
posted by chris24 at 7:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
Bullshit. She was in the high 60s when she was SOS. There's been numerous articles on how she's popular as hell when working at a job, but hated when trying for a new one. Because those damn striving women don't ya know.
America loves women like Hillary Clinton–as long as they’re not asking for a promotion
posted by chris24 at 7:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
On other hypotheticals- if Pence is going to be secret president, what are some strategies to deal with him? He's got awful policies but does he really have the will to carry them out? He seems weaker than say Walker or Brownback.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bullshit. She was in the high 60s when she was SOS.
That was then unfortunately. The current reality is a bit more sobering alas.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on November 11, 2016
That was then unfortunately. The current reality is a bit more sobering alas.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on November 11, 2016
Anyway, here's an interesting article from Latino Decisions, the latinx polling company that really tears into the exit polls showing Trump supposedly doing better than Romney. A lot of good reasons to doubt the 29%.
Lies, Damn Lies, and Exit Polls
posted by chris24 at 7:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Lies, Damn Lies, and Exit Polls
posted by chris24 at 7:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
And speaking of exit polls...
@ryanstruyk
Whites w/o college degree voted big for Trump no matter their economic status:
Under $100k/year: Trump 68-27%
Over $100k/year: Trump 67-29%
posted by chris24 at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
@ryanstruyk
Whites w/o college degree voted big for Trump no matter their economic status:
Under $100k/year: Trump 68-27%
Over $100k/year: Trump 67-29%
posted by chris24 at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
After thinking about it a bit, I have to believe all this "Bubble" talk is bullshit. One of the main causes of the divide in the country right now is that the bubble we used to have, with three main news networks and a local paper that provided so much of our information on the world is gone. We are flooded with info, and that flood is freaking out a lot of conservatives and rural folks who are confronted with views of the world they weren't seeing before and don't know how to process. Sure, the information they do choose is coming from narrower sources, reassuring them that their view of the world as it should be is the right one, but they can't tune out all the other voices saying they're wrong, that their view is skewed, that their beliefs themselves are racist, sexist or otherwise damaging, so they take their fear, insecurity, and anger out on those who are not conforming to their vision of the world as they want to see it and are pushing them to change.
On the other side, those of us who are trying to take in this flood of information and sort it into meaningful data are confronted by so many differing theories and claims, many of which seem plausible and may conform to what we believe that we too sometimes get overwhelmed and lash out at others for causing this confusion. Anger from this sort of excess tends to be more towards competing explanations or against claims which may seem somewhat plausible but don't' fit in with the rest of our point of view on reality, while at the same time we can be taken in bad information that wasn't accurate, much like the polling data this election. It provided a narrative we wanted to believe and that seemed so reasonable, I mean who wouldn't want to think voters would reject Trump handily? But it was still wrong in the end and that failure signals other information we believe in might also be faulty, so we radically adjust to fit that knowledge into our worldview and react to whatever that now suggests.
These problems aren't from too little info or from not getting enough cross talk between different view points, we all heard the alt-right and read countless takes on who Trump voters are and what they "really" want, and many of us even had takes of our own based off perosnal encounters we've shared. It's just difficult to process how wide the gulf is between our point of view and that of others, so it can be minimized if we find information that provides a reason to do so. We want to believe other people will see the world as we do even more because we are more aware of the alternative point of view, not because we don't know they exist. Ignorance of other possibilities due to being in a bubble is not the same as seeking to have our perspectives match or be matched by reality and finding like minded people who share that point of view.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
On the other side, those of us who are trying to take in this flood of information and sort it into meaningful data are confronted by so many differing theories and claims, many of which seem plausible and may conform to what we believe that we too sometimes get overwhelmed and lash out at others for causing this confusion. Anger from this sort of excess tends to be more towards competing explanations or against claims which may seem somewhat plausible but don't' fit in with the rest of our point of view on reality, while at the same time we can be taken in bad information that wasn't accurate, much like the polling data this election. It provided a narrative we wanted to believe and that seemed so reasonable, I mean who wouldn't want to think voters would reject Trump handily? But it was still wrong in the end and that failure signals other information we believe in might also be faulty, so we radically adjust to fit that knowledge into our worldview and react to whatever that now suggests.
These problems aren't from too little info or from not getting enough cross talk between different view points, we all heard the alt-right and read countless takes on who Trump voters are and what they "really" want, and many of us even had takes of our own based off perosnal encounters we've shared. It's just difficult to process how wide the gulf is between our point of view and that of others, so it can be minimized if we find information that provides a reason to do so. We want to believe other people will see the world as we do even more because we are more aware of the alternative point of view, not because we don't know they exist. Ignorance of other possibilities due to being in a bubble is not the same as seeking to have our perspectives match or be matched by reality and finding like minded people who share that point of view.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Because those damn striving women don't ya know.
The bar is definitely much much higher for a woman to succeed in American politics. I have no doubt about that. The first female president will have to be a better politician than Hillary Clinton, and better than any man, to win. I am sure that woman is out there and it will happen, hopefully soon.
And again, you're moving the goal posts. She's great at doing her job (and hence, popular while doing it), she just isn't that great at getting votes. She herself has admitted this! And it was one of her best moments as a politician.
posted by cell divide at 8:03 PM on November 11, 2016
The bar is definitely much much higher for a woman to succeed in American politics. I have no doubt about that. The first female president will have to be a better politician than Hillary Clinton, and better than any man, to win. I am sure that woman is out there and it will happen, hopefully soon.
And again, you're moving the goal posts. She's great at doing her job (and hence, popular while doing it), she just isn't that great at getting votes. She herself has admitted this! And it was one of her best moments as a politician.
posted by cell divide at 8:03 PM on November 11, 2016
she just isn't that great at getting votes
Well, not in thewhiteright areas, anyway.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, not in the
posted by tonycpsu at 8:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would like to thank our international MeFi friends for their support during the beginning of this post-election crisis.
posted by maurreen at 8:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by maurreen at 8:06 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, it was a change election, which is why Clinton won the popular vote. Sure, go with that since everyone in the media has gotta find their own special hot take and that one hasn't been out there much yet. Good job.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 8:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think FDR's fireside chats is the working model here unfortunately.
Hate Week seems vastly more likely.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hate Week seems vastly more likely.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This has been posted before but I think it deserves more discussion.
Donald Trump is moving to the White House, and liberals put him there
posted by futz at 8:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump is moving to the White House, and liberals put him there
posted by futz at 8:09 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
she just isn't that great at getting votes
Other than, you know, winning the popular vote against Obama (arguable) and Trump.
posted by chris24 at 8:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Other than, you know, winning the popular vote against Obama (arguable) and Trump.
posted by chris24 at 8:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Clinton ran a great campaign for those who took it to heart, you can check the elections threads for verification or look to Pantsuit Nation perhaps for more proof, and her campaign wasn't what others wanted, many here preferring the Sanders model. Really not a one or the other kinda deal, both can be true at the same time.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 8:12 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah for reals. One's personal narrative of how things are is only that.
posted by agregoli at 8:18 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by agregoli at 8:18 PM on November 11, 2016
She didn't inspire people.
The legions of women inspired to write down their stories, to get out and vote and volunteer and work to elect Hillary Clinton, and to believe for a short time that they might, someday, have equal value in the eyes of the world, would like to disagree.
(Yes, I know what you mean. I do, truly, but as someone who was irrevocably changed by learning about Hillary Clinton and about working on this election and about...everything -- this, as a blanket statement, isn't true.)
posted by kalimac at 8:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [43 favorites]
The legions of women inspired to write down their stories, to get out and vote and volunteer and work to elect Hillary Clinton, and to believe for a short time that they might, someday, have equal value in the eyes of the world, would like to disagree.
(Yes, I know what you mean. I do, truly, but as someone who was irrevocably changed by learning about Hillary Clinton and about working on this election and about...everything -- this, as a blanket statement, isn't true.)
posted by kalimac at 8:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [43 favorites]
Looks like Trump committed to pardoning Snowden back in June. Not that I trust him, but that would be nice.
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Other than, you know, winning the popular vote against Obama
what
Depending on how you want to count some of the states that had some things going on with the DNC, she got more votes in the primary. The top 4 rows of info at RCP shows the numbers.
posted by chris24 at 8:21 PM on November 11, 2016
what
Depending on how you want to count some of the states that had some things going on with the DNC, she got more votes in the primary. The top 4 rows of info at RCP shows the numbers.
posted by chris24 at 8:21 PM on November 11, 2016
IT REALLY WAS A CHANGE ELECTION The voters were serious about that. And there was only one change candidate.
Yea this is what I'm coming to terms with. And I think that Hillary was the most qualified and competent candidate by far. She would have been a good president and had way more understanding of the position and polices involved than anybody else running.
But running an establishment candidate as a 3rd term incumbent is already difficult and the DNC did not appreciate the level of populist, antiestablishment sentiment out there (and why should they really? Obama is's approval numbers are high, the economic indicators are good..) but the antiestablishment community also has a point with respect to income inequality and abuse of power.
I think this is the challenge now to the DNC and wonder if now is not the time to tear itself up a little and rebuild with a new base:
-Coalesce OWS and BLM, find ways to engage minorities and GOTV.
-Make environmental policy a primary issue and come to some collaborative agreement with the Green party.
-Find fresh young talent and reorganize
posted by angrybear at 8:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yea this is what I'm coming to terms with. And I think that Hillary was the most qualified and competent candidate by far. She would have been a good president and had way more understanding of the position and polices involved than anybody else running.
But running an establishment candidate as a 3rd term incumbent is already difficult and the DNC did not appreciate the level of populist, antiestablishment sentiment out there (and why should they really? Obama is's approval numbers are high, the economic indicators are good..) but the antiestablishment community also has a point with respect to income inequality and abuse of power.
I think this is the challenge now to the DNC and wonder if now is not the time to tear itself up a little and rebuild with a new base:
-Coalesce OWS and BLM, find ways to engage minorities and GOTV.
-Make environmental policy a primary issue and come to some collaborative agreement with the Green party.
-Find fresh young talent and reorganize
posted by angrybear at 8:22 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I fucking HATE those blanket statements of Hillary didn't inspire people. Discounts on women's experiences! Low low prices! Available everywhere you turn!
posted by agregoli at 8:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [70 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 8:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [70 favorites]
It's a candidate's job to win elections -- no shit. Take her to task for not getting her job done, but this extra angle of "some of us were worried about this" implies a counterfactual where another candidate could win. Obviously, for some, that counterfactual is Bernard Sanders, and based on Hillary coming up short in the rust belt, it sounds like a compelling argument. Until you think about the other components of the Obama coalition -- you know, the ones he failed to persuade in the Democratic primary, in which Hillary Clinton defeated him. Wasn't it his job to win the primary as well if he was the best candidate? And what makes anyone think that he would have won the voters he couldn't win before?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
After seeing Trump with Obama and seeing how overwhelmed he's starting to look, I'd had the idle fantasy of Clinton calling him up and offering to help him out by dealing with all those pesky policy details to give him more time for speeches. Pitch it as a unity move to ease the nation sort of thing. As long as Donald gets the top spot and his name on stuff he'd probably be happy enough, I mean I think he actually kind of admires Clinton in his own weird way. So kick Pence to the curb for the nation's sake.
Yeah, I know, I wouldn't really wish that on Hillary either, but I would wish it on the rest of us.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I know, I wouldn't really wish that on Hillary either, but I would wish it on the rest of us.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If the previews of Trump's 60 Minutes interview are any indication, not to mention the WSJ interview, the press will continue to be lapdogs. Lesley Stahl interviews him on his own turf at Trump Tower in gold dictator chairs, has him contradict his entire campaign on Obamacare, and then, unless they're holding back until Sunday, does nothing to really press him on the contradiction and problems with his new plan. If I can ask better followup questions on healthcare policy off the top of my head than someone who has spent 44 years interviewing basically everybody for CBS News, something is radically wrong.
Stahl is normalizing a complete lack of grounding in reality. She, like most of the reporters throughout the campaign, believe it is enough to sit down with Trump, let him bloviate on your selected topic, and then for extra credit, edit in a clip of him saying the opposite thing or some expert saying he's wrong. That doesn't work. It's not enough to catch him saying something stupid, stick a big arrow next to it, and trust everyone to get the message. That was literally how the press operated the entire campaign, every day a new even worse thing he said at a rally, and look where it got us. That's still stenography, not journalism.
The only thing that has been proven time and time again to be effective, exceptionally effective with Trump, is not to take his shit and question his knowledge and assumptions when he says something stupid. That's terrifying, because he lashes out when this happens, especially at women. And he threatens their employers and restricts access, which makes an organization like CBS News cower in fear, as if he's ever going to allow any access worth restricting anyway. And yet, it's the only thing that has ever been effective with him. I don't just mean effective in terms of deriving new information to inform the country, I also mean it personally affects him, to the extent he holds decades-long grudges against those who stood up to him.
Trump has ample access to video production equipment and the internet if the goal is to let him say whatever he wants on video and release it to the world. If the point is to actually conduct an interview, somebody needs to step up to the plate. We don't need more Matt Lauer and we don't need more Jimmy Fallon playing with his hair. We don't need more interviewers coming to his home and sitting in his chairs and asking the whole family how they feel about the election. We need someone who asks followup question after followup question until nothing is left or he walks off the set in a fit of rage. What we've seen so far this week doesn't remotely rise to the challenge.
posted by zachlipton at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
Stahl is normalizing a complete lack of grounding in reality. She, like most of the reporters throughout the campaign, believe it is enough to sit down with Trump, let him bloviate on your selected topic, and then for extra credit, edit in a clip of him saying the opposite thing or some expert saying he's wrong. That doesn't work. It's not enough to catch him saying something stupid, stick a big arrow next to it, and trust everyone to get the message. That was literally how the press operated the entire campaign, every day a new even worse thing he said at a rally, and look where it got us. That's still stenography, not journalism.
The only thing that has been proven time and time again to be effective, exceptionally effective with Trump, is not to take his shit and question his knowledge and assumptions when he says something stupid. That's terrifying, because he lashes out when this happens, especially at women. And he threatens their employers and restricts access, which makes an organization like CBS News cower in fear, as if he's ever going to allow any access worth restricting anyway. And yet, it's the only thing that has ever been effective with him. I don't just mean effective in terms of deriving new information to inform the country, I also mean it personally affects him, to the extent he holds decades-long grudges against those who stood up to him.
Trump has ample access to video production equipment and the internet if the goal is to let him say whatever he wants on video and release it to the world. If the point is to actually conduct an interview, somebody needs to step up to the plate. We don't need more Matt Lauer and we don't need more Jimmy Fallon playing with his hair. We don't need more interviewers coming to his home and sitting in his chairs and asking the whole family how they feel about the election. We need someone who asks followup question after followup question until nothing is left or he walks off the set in a fit of rage. What we've seen so far this week doesn't remotely rise to the challenge.
posted by zachlipton at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
IT REALLY WAS A CHANGE ELECTION The voters were serious about that. And there was only one change candidate.
Who lost the popular vote by 1.5%. If you want to say it was change election for white people, maybe. Though I would argue it was white people embracing white primacy as a backlash to 8 years of cultural diversity and perceived loss of privilege.
posted by chris24 at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Who lost the popular vote by 1.5%. If you want to say it was change election for white people, maybe. Though I would argue it was white people embracing white primacy as a backlash to 8 years of cultural diversity and perceived loss of privilege.
posted by chris24 at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
This notion that liberal hubris put Trump into the Whitehouse...fuck that. He won because his statement and policies appealed to a broad swath of the population. To think his supporters were driven to him because liberals were belittling them is actually the truest form of liberal condescension.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
It was a change election. The change from multiculturalism to white nationalism.
posted by Justinian at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [26 favorites]
It's going to be awful difficult to talk about how Clinton lost, or why her campaign lost, if doing so continues to provoke the sort of defensive reaction that made us a pro-Hillary echo chamber to begin with.
Yeah, disagree. MetaFilter isn't an echo chamber in the way it's usually meant. Part of the reason I followed these threads so studiously is because there were links to sources from all over the spectrum, and intelligent discussions about them. Maybe not very many actual T supporters, but most of us had no problems finding those voices in our daily lives. This was, and still is one of the least bubbly places on the internet. And we were confident in our opinion, because the polls supported it!
(Which polls? All of them. Which is one of the problems.)
posted by monospace at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yeah, disagree. MetaFilter isn't an echo chamber in the way it's usually meant. Part of the reason I followed these threads so studiously is because there were links to sources from all over the spectrum, and intelligent discussions about them. Maybe not very many actual T supporters, but most of us had no problems finding those voices in our daily lives. This was, and still is one of the least bubbly places on the internet. And we were confident in our opinion, because the polls supported it!
(Which polls? All of them. Which is one of the problems.)
posted by monospace at 8:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Obviously I know Clinton inspired millions of people. I think it's uncharitable to just assume I'm writing everyone who was inspired by her off, I meant not enough people.
It's a candidate's job to win elections -- no shit.
I don't know, my experience has been when you point that out, people will tell you everything that's wrong with the electorate and not the candidate.
Donald Trump has the worst favorable/unfavorable of any presidential candidate, ever.
this extra angle of "some of us were worried about this" implies a counterfactual where another candidate could win
I don't think it's counterfactual to say given Trump's massive deficiencies, a better campaign or better candidate would've, and should've beaten him. And needed to beat him for the sake of our country and our democracy. There was so much at stake in this election that I think it's not only appropriate but necessary to place blame on the losing campaign and try to understand how it lost.
The numbers show that Trump was highly disliked, didn't get a lot of votes, and he still won the election. Why is it controversial or counterfactual to say Clinton was a bad candidate who bungled the election?
posted by cell divide at 8:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's a candidate's job to win elections -- no shit.
I don't know, my experience has been when you point that out, people will tell you everything that's wrong with the electorate and not the candidate.
Donald Trump has the worst favorable/unfavorable of any presidential candidate, ever.
this extra angle of "some of us were worried about this" implies a counterfactual where another candidate could win
I don't think it's counterfactual to say given Trump's massive deficiencies, a better campaign or better candidate would've, and should've beaten him. And needed to beat him for the sake of our country and our democracy. There was so much at stake in this election that I think it's not only appropriate but necessary to place blame on the losing campaign and try to understand how it lost.
The numbers show that Trump was highly disliked, didn't get a lot of votes, and he still won the election. Why is it controversial or counterfactual to say Clinton was a bad candidate who bungled the election?
posted by cell divide at 8:33 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The mistake the Clinton campaign made was thinking Obama voters weren't racist voters. They, and I, thought they wouldn't lose the blue wall because what sane person would vote for a black man twice and then go for a white supremacist. But as Jamelle Bouie said in the Slate article I linked above, Obama didn't cure racism in those voters, he overcame it by being "one of the good ones" against shitty opposition. But given a choice of an overt appeal to that racism and a party representing brown people and diversity, they choose white nationalism and preserving their privilege.
posted by chris24 at 8:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 8:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [36 favorites]
I don't think it's counterfactual to say given Trump's massive deficiencies, a better campaign or better candidate would've, and should've beaten him.
Sure, I'll name one. Barack Obama would have beaten him. But oh shit, term limits. In the abstract, "someone else could have beaten him" isn't that interesting. That's not what most here are saying.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure, I'll name one. Barack Obama would have beaten him. But oh shit, term limits. In the abstract, "someone else could have beaten him" isn't that interesting. That's not what most here are saying.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
That Melania thing - is it the the greatagain.gov bio of Melania? I just looked at that page and it doesn't have any actual links. It's her bio. Is there a page with an actual link? I can't stand Trump and her and anybody who likes em, I just want to have the story correct. Is there another page Maddow was talking about?
Just caught the replay of that segment. Maddow did not say there was an actual hyperlink to the QVC jewelry line, just that the .gov page listed the name of it, which it still does as of today. In the same vein, the following paragraph was on the Trump bio page as of yesterday, but has since been removed:
Just caught the replay of that segment. Maddow did not say there was an actual hyperlink to the QVC jewelry line, just that the .gov page listed the name of it, which it still does as of today. In the same vein, the following paragraph was on the Trump bio page as of yesterday, but has since been removed:
The Trump organization owns some of the world’s top properties, including, among many others, the world-renowned Fifth Avenue skyscraper, Trump Tower, as well as Trump Parc, Trump Palace, Trump Plaza, the Trump World Tower, Trump Park Avenue, and, most recently, the transformation of the Old Post Office Building in Washington DC. In addition to properties that occupy the Manhattan skyline, Mr. Trump owns many of the premier golf clubs around the world, some of which include Trump National Golf Club in Westchester, NY, Trump National Golf Club in Los Angeles, CA, Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, FL, Trump National Doral Miami, and Turnberry Golf Club in Scotland. Mr. Trump owns properties around the globe in locations such as Brazil, Canada, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Panama, Scotland, Ireland, and others.posted by Dixon Ticonderoga at 8:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sanders vs Clinton, hm, which should we choose in our alternate/future history... if only there were a politician who was almost the perfect cross of the two, almost ridiculously so, as if she were the fever-dream of some sort of Clinton-Sanders fanfic...
posted by chortly at 8:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chortly at 8:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So it seems awful infantilizing of voters to make this all about how Clinton could have done X or Y (or wasn't X or Y to people) and somehow Clinton would have won. They actually, you know, polled Trump supporters repeatedly and asked them questions. And consistently found that the greatest predictors of Trump support are racial and gender animosity. Whites overwhelmingly across all income brackets broke for Trump, who was explicitly invoking islamophobia, anti-semitism, anti-blackness and many other forms of bigotry. Like, sure, in the abstract I agree there were alternate universes where a better campaign could have been run (or a "better" candidate). But the actual reality that has actually occurred is that lots of people (almost half of those who voted) voted for a candidate who wore his bigotry openly. To obsess about other aspects of the election is to give a pass to that bigotry. The media is already trying it because it's much more comfortable to talk about economics or what the Clinton campaign could have done differently. Facing up to racial injustice -- and that many americans are passively if not actively racist -- is a lot harder.
posted by R343L at 8:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by R343L at 8:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
as if she were the fever-dream of some sort of Clinton-Sanders fanfic...
yeah, the thing is
posted by tonycpsu at 8:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
yeah, the thing is
posted by tonycpsu at 8:38 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
If there is a one-point postmortem, it is that you go into an election with a model of the electorate that tends more towards the one you fear you have, and not the one you hope you have. That is, a model that assumes people won't get past their prejudices to vote for things that might personally benefit them, a model that assumes young people will turn out en masse for someone who isn't as singular as Barack Obama, a model that assumes fuck-you burn-it-all-down votes, a model that assumes a mass media that isn't sucking on the pipe, a model where you have to bank an extra 30,000 votes in Wisconsin even if that means fucking over millions of LGBT people because that's the only way at that point in time to lock those votes in, a model where you have to accept that the affluent Charlotte exurbs are going to fuck you over once they've had a couple of weeks without a debate to think about, and instead get a week of Clinton Rules coverage from their preferred media sources.
he will be drunk with it as soon as he learns how to wield the immense power he's just gained.
This isn't going from Queens to Manhattan, though. This is going to hit him (and everyone else) like a train. A proper train going at Japanese speed. I now expect he won't learn the power available to him because it will be appropriated by the cronies and hangers-on and 90s retread GOP sycophants before he even asks.
We are flooded with info, and that flood is freaking out a lot of conservatives and rural folks who are confronted with views of the world they weren't seeing before and don't know how to process.
The most significant "let's look at the [future white house occupant] voters" profiles in major media weren't the "I went to Bleaksville" travel pieces, but the ones that focused on individuals (mostly done by the WaPo) and they covered people in bad situations, usually keeping themselves from penury on SSA disability benefits, which gave them enough cursed time on their hands that they propelled themselves into self-actualising click-click-click anti-government conspiracy nuttery. Self-radicalisation. Those individuals may have been more extreme examples, but they are the model for why the MeTa Thanksgiving thread exists.
and come to some collaborative agreement with the Green party.
There is no American Green Party as a political presence worth any kind of agreement. There is a four-year flare-up of Greenier-than-thou-ism on the national level. If actual Greens want to change that dynamic by running in local elections, let them do it.
Also: delete your Facebook account. (And fuck Thomas Frank, who after a good intellectual start has been writing the same damn essay for the past 16 years, an essay that assumes a kind of heartland decency that is still unproven. He got stuck in a schtick.)
posted by holgate at 8:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
he will be drunk with it as soon as he learns how to wield the immense power he's just gained.
This isn't going from Queens to Manhattan, though. This is going to hit him (and everyone else) like a train. A proper train going at Japanese speed. I now expect he won't learn the power available to him because it will be appropriated by the cronies and hangers-on and 90s retread GOP sycophants before he even asks.
We are flooded with info, and that flood is freaking out a lot of conservatives and rural folks who are confronted with views of the world they weren't seeing before and don't know how to process.
The most significant "let's look at the [future white house occupant] voters" profiles in major media weren't the "I went to Bleaksville" travel pieces, but the ones that focused on individuals (mostly done by the WaPo) and they covered people in bad situations, usually keeping themselves from penury on SSA disability benefits, which gave them enough cursed time on their hands that they propelled themselves into self-actualising click-click-click anti-government conspiracy nuttery. Self-radicalisation. Those individuals may have been more extreme examples, but they are the model for why the MeTa Thanksgiving thread exists.
and come to some collaborative agreement with the Green party.
There is no American Green Party as a political presence worth any kind of agreement. There is a four-year flare-up of Greenier-than-thou-ism on the national level. If actual Greens want to change that dynamic by running in local elections, let them do it.
Also: delete your Facebook account. (And fuck Thomas Frank, who after a good intellectual start has been writing the same damn essay for the past 16 years, an essay that assumes a kind of heartland decency that is still unproven. He got stuck in a schtick.)
posted by holgate at 8:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm fine with discussing why Clinton lost, though I don't actually believe there is just one thing in the way so many seem to be looking for it in polling results. A few small things and one big thing seemed to be the main problems, the big thing obviously is Trump appealing to white and even more white male voters for reasons much discussed, and the little things are matter of perspective hard to parse out because they are being measured against a counterfactual and personal perception.
But when we get to those counterfactuals, remember they can be cast in many ways. A lot of people are claiming Sanders would have beaten Trump if he'd gotten the nod instead of Clinton, but we also could pose the theory that Clinton would have won if Sanders hadn't gone in the primary against her, potentially costing Clinton some support from Sanders fans who felt hurt by his loss or by pushing her too far left or by drawing out the time spent on those damn emails instead of other things or or or
All our suppositions are going to be flawed because we'll never have a right answer, and there almost assuredly isn't one right answer other than Trump appealed to white voters more than one would like to see.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
But when we get to those counterfactuals, remember they can be cast in many ways. A lot of people are claiming Sanders would have beaten Trump if he'd gotten the nod instead of Clinton, but we also could pose the theory that Clinton would have won if Sanders hadn't gone in the primary against her, potentially costing Clinton some support from Sanders fans who felt hurt by his loss or by pushing her too far left or by drawing out the time spent on those damn emails instead of other things or or or
All our suppositions are going to be flawed because we'll never have a right answer, and there almost assuredly isn't one right answer other than Trump appealed to white voters more than one would like to see.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
In the abstract, "someone else could have beaten him" isn't that interesting. That's not what most here are saying.
What I'm trying to say, and apparently not very well is that it's important to try to understand what happened. I accept that it's not interesting to say someone else could've won. But I do think with the stakes this high, and mid-terms coming up, it's crucial to try to understand what went wrong. Do you disagree? What are most here saying that I am missing in this regard? I ask in order to understand, not rhetorically or to put you on the spot.
So it seems awful infantilizing of voters to make this all about how Clinton could have done X or Y (or wasn't X or Y to people) and somehow Clinton would have won
Well that's how campaigns work, you try to figure out what you can do to get people to vote for you, or how you can get the other guy's people to not show up. People are pretty malleable, I've said on here previously that I believe that racism and sexism were probably a deciding factor in the election, but the campaign's job is not to change the electorate, but to figure out how to win. Clinton's team failed, and the repercussions are massive. Racism is a powerful force, but is it all powerful?
Do you think that Trump was unbeatable by Clinton? That harnessing racial/gender animosity is a power that consumed the election?
posted by cell divide at 8:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I'm trying to say, and apparently not very well is that it's important to try to understand what happened. I accept that it's not interesting to say someone else could've won. But I do think with the stakes this high, and mid-terms coming up, it's crucial to try to understand what went wrong. Do you disagree? What are most here saying that I am missing in this regard? I ask in order to understand, not rhetorically or to put you on the spot.
So it seems awful infantilizing of voters to make this all about how Clinton could have done X or Y (or wasn't X or Y to people) and somehow Clinton would have won
Well that's how campaigns work, you try to figure out what you can do to get people to vote for you, or how you can get the other guy's people to not show up. People are pretty malleable, I've said on here previously that I believe that racism and sexism were probably a deciding factor in the election, but the campaign's job is not to change the electorate, but to figure out how to win. Clinton's team failed, and the repercussions are massive. Racism is a powerful force, but is it all powerful?
Do you think that Trump was unbeatable by Clinton? That harnessing racial/gender animosity is a power that consumed the election?
posted by cell divide at 8:46 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This isn't going from Queens to Manhattan, though. This is going to hit him (and everyone else) like a train. A proper train going at Japanese speed. I now expect he won't learn the power available to him because it will be appropriated by the cronies and hangers-on and 90s retread GOP sycophants before he even asks.
Can you even imagine the nightmare it would be to brief him? You'd essentially have to start from first principles and work through the entire history of the United States and it's world involvements to get him anywhere close to beginning to understand what's going on, and that's before noting he has no attention span. Nightmare stuff for the staff if he would try to actually do the job.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Can you even imagine the nightmare it would be to brief him? You'd essentially have to start from first principles and work through the entire history of the United States and it's world involvements to get him anywhere close to beginning to understand what's going on, and that's before noting he has no attention span. Nightmare stuff for the staff if he would try to actually do the job.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Barack Obama can probably beat any legally elligible person, let's be honest.
I doubt he could get more votes than Michelle....
posted by Rumple at 8:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I doubt he could get more votes than Michelle....
posted by Rumple at 8:47 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
WSJ article upthread: On health care, Mr. Trump said a big reason for his shift from his call for an all-out repeal was that Thursday meeting at the White House with the president, who, he said, suggested areas of the Affordable Care Act to preserve.
Since Trump has been observed to parrot the opinions of whoever he last spoke with, can we just get our Democratic congress folks, coalitions, judges, etc. to constantly set up meetings with him?
posted by p3t3 at 8:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
Since Trump has been observed to parrot the opinions of whoever he last spoke with, can we just get our Democratic congress folks, coalitions, judges, etc. to constantly set up meetings with him?
posted by p3t3 at 8:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
Well that's how campaigns work, you try to figure out what you can do to get people to vote for you, or how you can get the other guy's people to not show up.
Right, but each campaign has to be run for the person campaigning, cross comparisons of past events aren't helpful in that way. You work with the strengths and weaknesses of the candidate you have, or are, and use past results to decide how best to attack the map.
Now, if you asked, for example, whether Sanders should run his campaign like Clinton, the answer likely would be no. He would have to go to the rust belt and try to out rhetoric Trump because that's who he is. Clinton ran on who she was, which is something different, and comparing the two in like terms therefore is not as easy as it may seem since there'd be give and take either way.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:52 PM on November 11, 2016
Right, but each campaign has to be run for the person campaigning, cross comparisons of past events aren't helpful in that way. You work with the strengths and weaknesses of the candidate you have, or are, and use past results to decide how best to attack the map.
Now, if you asked, for example, whether Sanders should run his campaign like Clinton, the answer likely would be no. He would have to go to the rust belt and try to out rhetoric Trump because that's who he is. Clinton ran on who she was, which is something different, and comparing the two in like terms therefore is not as easy as it may seem since there'd be give and take either way.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:52 PM on November 11, 2016
I don't know, my experience has been when you point that out, people will tell you everything that's wrong with the electorate and not the candidate.
well, yes. at least, I will. that is because in a democracy, you don't make someone president to give them a reward or a prize or what they deserve; you make them president to hire their labor for you and everybody else. that is to say you vote for what you want the country to have, not what you want the candidate to receive. in short: yes.
Hillary Clinton doesn't need to be president and neither does anybody ever. we need not to make fuckin idiotic choices that will hurt us. we, the electorate, not the DNC or whoever.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
well, yes. at least, I will. that is because in a democracy, you don't make someone president to give them a reward or a prize or what they deserve; you make them president to hire their labor for you and everybody else. that is to say you vote for what you want the country to have, not what you want the candidate to receive. in short: yes.
Hillary Clinton doesn't need to be president and neither does anybody ever. we need not to make fuckin idiotic choices that will hurt us. we, the electorate, not the DNC or whoever.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
trump rallies! who will be the next riefenstahl? i have a favorite, but i'm keeping it under my hat for now (starts with 'K')...
posted by j_curiouser at 8:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 8:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
re: Trump deciding presidenting is too hard and outsourcing it to CLinton: yes, it is a foolish fever dream, but on the other hand it is word for word what happened to her in high school per her convention video montage bio: allegedly, she ran for high school president, lost to a boy who said girls couldn't do the job, and then he came and got her to be head of the organizing committee so she could do all the work behind the scenes while he enjoyed the title and prestige.
what man has done, man can do.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
what man has done, man can do.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 PM on November 11, 2016 [24 favorites]
I also have a more dire suggestion for why there wasn't more "enthusiasm" for Hillary - the chilling effect of Trump's violent supporters. Did anyone here consider getting a yardsign or a bumper sticker for Hillary and ... hesitate?
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [48 favorites]
There was discussion of protests upthread; just wanted to mention, there'll be a silent protest in the downtown of our NC city tomorrow. We'll be there, we'll report back if there's anything of note.
posted by Kelrichen at 8:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Kelrichen at 8:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Did anyone here consider getting a yardsign or a bumper sticker for Hillary and ... hesitate?
Yep. We just leased a brand new car, and I drive to Long Island regularly and I wasn't going to take that risk.
posted by monospace at 9:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yep. We just leased a brand new car, and I drive to Long Island regularly and I wasn't going to take that risk.
posted by monospace at 9:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
>Donald Trump is moving to the White House, and liberals put him there
>"several more suitable candidates were ready to go. There was Joe Biden, with his powerful plainspoken style, and there was Bernie Sanders, an inspiring and largely scandal-free figure. Each of them would probably have beaten Trump,"
Remember when Bill Clinton got elected, and even some of the people who were happy about it expressed reservations that the Democrats had abandoned the left and become, at best, centrists, barely distinguishable from moderate Republicans? Anybody remember why the Democrats did that? It's because real liberals were hated like lepers in this country, to the point where you couldn't even use the word 'liberal' to describe yourself without abandoning any political aspirations you might have had, because it meant you had the stink of failure and Jimmy Carter on you, not to mention The Communism. And you know what? That is still how a VAST number of people feel. Bernie Sanders would have taken a big chunk out of Jill Stein's two percent, but in a general election I betcha he'd have got beat like a cheap rug. If you think a socialist and a Jew would have been less steamrollered by the bouncing baby White Nationalist movement than Clinton was, it's possible you've forgotten how this country really feels about the left. You know how you WANTED people to react to a racist? That's how they'd actually react to a socialist.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
>"several more suitable candidates were ready to go. There was Joe Biden, with his powerful plainspoken style, and there was Bernie Sanders, an inspiring and largely scandal-free figure. Each of them would probably have beaten Trump,"
Remember when Bill Clinton got elected, and even some of the people who were happy about it expressed reservations that the Democrats had abandoned the left and become, at best, centrists, barely distinguishable from moderate Republicans? Anybody remember why the Democrats did that? It's because real liberals were hated like lepers in this country, to the point where you couldn't even use the word 'liberal' to describe yourself without abandoning any political aspirations you might have had, because it meant you had the stink of failure and Jimmy Carter on you, not to mention The Communism. And you know what? That is still how a VAST number of people feel. Bernie Sanders would have taken a big chunk out of Jill Stein's two percent, but in a general election I betcha he'd have got beat like a cheap rug. If you think a socialist and a Jew would have been less steamrollered by the bouncing baby White Nationalist movement than Clinton was, it's possible you've forgotten how this country really feels about the left. You know how you WANTED people to react to a racist? That's how they'd actually react to a socialist.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [42 favorites]
But I do think with the stakes this high, and mid-terms coming up, it's crucial to try to understand what went wrong. Do you disagree?
Not at all -- I've spent many a comment here trying to do just that.
What are most here saying that I am missing in this regard? I ask in order to understand, not rhetorically or to put you on the spot.
To the extent that people are talking about how things can be done better in the future, it's fine to talk about Hillary's weaknesses. But when the comments are grounded in how it wasn't done right this time, or how some people were worried that she wouldn't win, I don't think it's a really useful criticism without being explicit about who would have done better.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not at all -- I've spent many a comment here trying to do just that.
What are most here saying that I am missing in this regard? I ask in order to understand, not rhetorically or to put you on the spot.
To the extent that people are talking about how things can be done better in the future, it's fine to talk about Hillary's weaknesses. But when the comments are grounded in how it wasn't done right this time, or how some people were worried that she wouldn't win, I don't think it's a really useful criticism without being explicit about who would have done better.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The numbers show that Trump was highly disliked, didn't get a lot of votes, and he still won the election. Why is it controversial or counterfactual to say Clinton was a bad candidate who bungled the election?
Trump won in spite of that, because there is something bigger going on. Stupid angry people.
The victim blaming against Clinton is pathetic, but predictable. She was the best person for the job, that's who you want. What stupid people do is out of my control. They very obviously didn't want the best person for the job, they said so clearly. How do you fight a large group of people who want someone they know will be bad at the job?
I can't imagine who people think would have done better, but it's all fan fiction. Like I said, if your answer is "but Bernie..." you might as well be saying Beyonce could have taken it. I don't know, maybe she could, that seems to be where we're going. People seem to be saying we shouldn't be picking the best person for the job, we should be picking a mass appeal celebrity.
posted by bongo_x at 9:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
Trump won in spite of that, because there is something bigger going on. Stupid angry people.
The victim blaming against Clinton is pathetic, but predictable. She was the best person for the job, that's who you want. What stupid people do is out of my control. They very obviously didn't want the best person for the job, they said so clearly. How do you fight a large group of people who want someone they know will be bad at the job?
I can't imagine who people think would have done better, but it's all fan fiction. Like I said, if your answer is "but Bernie..." you might as well be saying Beyonce could have taken it. I don't know, maybe she could, that seems to be where we're going. People seem to be saying we shouldn't be picking the best person for the job, we should be picking a mass appeal celebrity.
posted by bongo_x at 9:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
USA Today: White supremacists urge trolling Clinton supporters to suicide:
Donald Trump’s election as president of the United States has emboldened white supremacists to target Hillary Clinton supporters and others with online harassment.posted by zachlipton at 9:07 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
The neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer published a list of more than 50 Twitter users who had expressed fear about the outcome of the 2016 election, urging its readers to “punish” them with a barrage of tweets that would drive them to suicide.
“You can troll these people and definitely get some of them to kill themselves,” wrote the Daily Stormer’s publisher, Andrew Anglin.
as if she were the fever-dream of some sort of Clinton-Sanders fanfic...
yeah, the thing is
(A) I meant less that she herself should run, than that we already know what sort of politician would unite the two wings of the Democratic party, and there's no real point in arguing about Clinton vs Sanders, since for the future we know pretty clearly what sort of politician we should be looking for.
(B) What evidence do we actually have that she doesn't want to run in 2020? As I understand it, the argument was about whether she should have run in 2016, which is moot -- the question, if one cares for such things, is 2020. But again, I personally care about movements, not individuals -- my point was rather that, as far as a party leader that can bridge the divide goes, we already have something fairly close to the paradigm.
(C) As a more practical and immediate matter, if one believes it is wrong to ask her to run in 2020, is it also wrong to ask her to become the de facto opposition party leader right now?
posted by chortly at 9:09 PM on November 11, 2016
yeah, the thing is
(A) I meant less that she herself should run, than that we already know what sort of politician would unite the two wings of the Democratic party, and there's no real point in arguing about Clinton vs Sanders, since for the future we know pretty clearly what sort of politician we should be looking for.
(B) What evidence do we actually have that she doesn't want to run in 2020? As I understand it, the argument was about whether she should have run in 2016, which is moot -- the question, if one cares for such things, is 2020. But again, I personally care about movements, not individuals -- my point was rather that, as far as a party leader that can bridge the divide goes, we already have something fairly close to the paradigm.
(C) As a more practical and immediate matter, if one believes it is wrong to ask her to run in 2020, is it also wrong to ask her to become the de facto opposition party leader right now?
posted by chortly at 9:09 PM on November 11, 2016
People seem to be saying we shouldn't be picking the best person for the jobThe best person for the job in that sense is some policy wonk none of us have ever heard of who has a working memory size an order of magnitude greater than average or something.
I hate it, but winning the election is part of the job, unfortunately.
posted by Coventry at 9:11 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you think a socialist and a Jew would have been less steamrollered by the bouncing baby White Nationalist movement than Clinton was, it's possible you've forgotten how this country really feels about the left. You know how you WANTED people to react to a racist? That's how they'd actually react to a socialist.
Except there was a black man named Barack Hussein Obama and he won twice. Once against Hillary Rodham Clinton. I don't think socialism would have been an insurmountable issue especially in this election cycle.
posted by futz at 9:17 PM on November 11, 2016
Except there was a black man named Barack Hussein Obama and he won twice. Once against Hillary Rodham Clinton. I don't think socialism would have been an insurmountable issue especially in this election cycle.
posted by futz at 9:17 PM on November 11, 2016
@carlreiner:
Donald Trump has given me, who is 94, the deep desire & will to live to 98 so I can vote for whoever runs against him.
posted by chris24 at 9:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
Donald Trump has given me, who is 94, the deep desire & will to live to 98 so I can vote for whoever runs against him.
posted by chris24 at 9:19 PM on November 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
Donald Trump Doesn't Like This Any More Than You Do
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
posted by Fleebnork
I suppose he could. No reason he couldn't. (Nixon comes to mind.)
Worth noting in the linked post are photos focusing his facial expressions and body language. He does not look like a happy winner.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Honestly I've had this thought, that he might just peace out and go back to his resort. Can the POTUS do that? Just quit because reasons?
posted by Fleebnork
I suppose he could. No reason he couldn't. (Nixon comes to mind.)
Worth noting in the linked post are photos focusing his facial expressions and body language. He does not look like a happy winner.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:21 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
You know how you WANTED people to react to a racist? That's how they'd actually react to a socialist.During the extensive canvassing I did for Sanders in Ohio, that turned out not to be the case. Even in straight-up pure whitebread podunk county fairs, it only happened about 20% of the time. (Though I only canvassed three or four of those events.)
posted by Coventry at 9:22 PM on November 11, 2016
What makes this election even more ridiculous is that the number of voters that could have swung it for Clinton were so small that you can imagine any number of seemingly nutty scenarios that could have made the difference. I mean what if a few more country music stars had campaigned with her, would that draw in those few extra rural/suburban white women she needed? It just gets silly after a while, but when margins are that small, really almost anything slightly different could have done the trick in theory. (Or hurt her chances too of course, but that is never the point of the exercise.)
posted by gusottertrout at 9:23 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 9:23 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
gusottertrout, the point is, it should have been a rout.
posted by Coventry at 9:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:24 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
You know. I was so looking forward to the election being over so I could stop typing "Source: <a href="url">Article headline</a> <blockquote>Article excerpt</blockquote> Concluding thought" over and over again, because I really can't keep living my life like this, yet here we still are. So without further ado:
Politico: Trump team rivalries spark infighting
posted by zachlipton at 9:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
Politico: Trump team rivalries spark infighting
The bitter infighting that plagued Donald Trump’s campaign during the Republican presidential primary is starting to spill over into his team’s efforts to establish an administration and political operation, according to more than half a dozen sources familiar with the planning efforts.Seems like basically the same mess, and everyone is still leaking like mad to try to advance their own agenda within the office. There's more in there about the Washington transition team having produced binders of proposals Trump never bothered to read, fighting between factions over policy because Trump doesn't have any, arguments about whether some personnel decisions would reward instead of punish people who weren't loyal to Trump, and Kushner getting his hands in everything.
The tensions played a role in a Friday shakeup in which the president-elect replaced his transition team chief Chris Christie with his running mate Mike Pence. Sources familiar with the move say it was precipitated partly by clashes between Christie’s allies and rival factions on the transition team, as well as Trump’s influential son-in-law Jared Kushner.
Those rifts and others are complicating what was an already a herculean task for Trump’s team: building a massive new government for a man who has never held public office.“It's the same situation as in the primary – everyone has the knives out for each other,” said a Republican operative who worked with the campaign and is now advising people on the transition team.
posted by zachlipton at 9:25 PM on November 11, 2016 [18 favorites]
I hate it, but winning the election is part of the job, unfortunately.What I meant here is, I hate that politics gets in the way of merit rising to the top. Despite that drawback, I don't think there's a better general framework for distributing power and responsibility than a democracy.
posted by Coventry at 9:28 PM on November 11, 2016
From our perspective, sure, but people voted for a know nothing bigot and liar, so trying to parse what could have changed their minds is pretty close to trying to deny the reality of their choice being for chaos. Policy wasn't the issue, Trump had none, experience, nope, a history of service and good conduct, please. Every quality that any sensible candidate we would want as president would have, Trump lacks, so trying to fit that into a postmortem over reasons doesn't work well since reason was completely absent here.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
I am tired of replaying the primaries, so I will lay the blame on Sanders for not accepting a veep position on a unity ticket. If Clinton didn't bother to offer it to him, then I blame her. Also for not offering to make him Sec. of Labor or w/e
posted by Apocryphon at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been meaning to ask this here for a while: is there anything like evidence that the Clinton camp rigged the primaries? I honestly don't know how to evaluate the sources I'll find on Google.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also blame the Republcian establishment in 2008 for not allowing McCain to pick Lieberman as his veep on a safe albeit unconventional bipartisan neocon ticket for Obama to beat, but rather unleashing Palin and thus the Tea Party which led to our current predicament
posted by Apocryphon at 9:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
You know. I was so looking forward to the election being over so...Yeah, I need to move on too.
posted by Coventry at 9:32 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
To the extent that people are talking about how things can be done better in the future, it's fine to talk about Hillary's weaknesses. But when the comments are grounded in how it wasn't done right this time, or how some people were worried that she wouldn't win, I don't think it's a really useful criticism without being explicit about who would have done better.
This is fair, but it also elides the candidate's big negatives. You'll recall that one of Obama's arguments in '08 was that Clinton came with a pile of baggage the GOP (and as it turns out the FBI in '16) would exploit in the general. Clinton was absolutely a hobbled candidate from the start and most of us were probably relieved when it became clear Trump would be her opposite. That clown versus the valedictorian? Anyway. There may have been others. They stayed away because of the weight of the candidate's reputation, and staff, and fundraising (but for the gadfly from Vermont there would have been no Dem primary). She was the very definition of establishment politician in a change election world (it's rightist bombthrowers across the West). That's not her fault. It was just another of several hurdles she had to overcome that her opponent didn't. But it doesn't mean TINA.
posted by notyou at 9:33 PM on November 11, 2016
This is fair, but it also elides the candidate's big negatives. You'll recall that one of Obama's arguments in '08 was that Clinton came with a pile of baggage the GOP (and as it turns out the FBI in '16) would exploit in the general. Clinton was absolutely a hobbled candidate from the start and most of us were probably relieved when it became clear Trump would be her opposite. That clown versus the valedictorian? Anyway. There may have been others. They stayed away because of the weight of the candidate's reputation, and staff, and fundraising (but for the gadfly from Vermont there would have been no Dem primary). She was the very definition of establishment politician in a change election world (it's rightist bombthrowers across the West). That's not her fault. It was just another of several hurdles she had to overcome that her opponent didn't. But it doesn't mean TINA.
posted by notyou at 9:33 PM on November 11, 2016
there's no real point in arguing about Clinton vs Sanders, since for the future we know pretty clearly what sort of politician we should be looking for.
Right. Like I said in my last comment, 2020 is a different conversation, but Hillary Clinton isn't going to run in 2020, and nobody like her is, so some of the comments going after her individually instead of specific qualities seem close to the usual relitigation of the primaries that we've tried to stay away from around here.
What evidence do we actually have that she doesn't want to run in 2020?
None, but with as much fervor as there was for her, it's hard to imagine she'd squander it and wait until she was in her 70s where her age could become an issue. Not that this would be fair, of course.
As a more practical and immediate matter, if one believes it is wrong to ask her to run in 2020, is it also wrong to ask her to become the de facto opposition party leader right now?
I don't think anyone said it was wrong to ask her to run. I also do not think she is the de facto opposition party leader right now. It doesn't really have one yet.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Right. Like I said in my last comment, 2020 is a different conversation, but Hillary Clinton isn't going to run in 2020, and nobody like her is, so some of the comments going after her individually instead of specific qualities seem close to the usual relitigation of the primaries that we've tried to stay away from around here.
What evidence do we actually have that she doesn't want to run in 2020?
None, but with as much fervor as there was for her, it's hard to imagine she'd squander it and wait until she was in her 70s where her age could become an issue. Not that this would be fair, of course.
As a more practical and immediate matter, if one believes it is wrong to ask her to run in 2020, is it also wrong to ask her to become the de facto opposition party leader right now?
I don't think anyone said it was wrong to ask her to run. I also do not think she is the de facto opposition party leader right now. It doesn't really have one yet.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
is there anything like evidence that the Clinton camp rigged the primaries?
I would think the opposite. The primaries dragged on long after everyone expected she would have had the nomination locked up.
posted by stopgap at 9:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would think the opposite. The primaries dragged on long after everyone expected she would have had the nomination locked up.
posted by stopgap at 9:36 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
From our perspective, sure, but people voted for a know nothing bigot and liar
That's not what the numbers show. Some people did, sure, but the people who could negate them just stayed home, including white people who voted big for Obama. Hectoring and lecturing really couldn't rouse them then, nor will they in 2020. (2018 is just lost.)
I mean, you could chide the absent voters as being inherently Racist and naturally vile... and then let's see what that does to our chances to retake the White House in 2020!
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's not what the numbers show. Some people did, sure, but the people who could negate them just stayed home, including white people who voted big for Obama. Hectoring and lecturing really couldn't rouse them then, nor will they in 2020. (2018 is just lost.)
I mean, you could chide the absent voters as being inherently Racist and naturally vile... and then let's see what that does to our chances to retake the White House in 2020!
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:37 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If we really wanted to do counter-factual elections (which we don't!), we would have to think about demographics, since the one thing we learned from this electoral outcome was that, despite an historically bizarre campaign, to a first approximation people on both sides ended up voting pretty much as they usually do.
The main differences between this and the previous election were:
(1) Clinton did slightly better with women than Obama.
(2) Clinton did slightly worse with minorities than Obama.
(3) Clinton did considerably worse with less educated voters than Obama.
Everything else was pretty much the same for most other demographic categories. Trump got almost exactly as many total votes as Romney, and Clinton got 2.5 million fewer total votes than Obama 2012. She probably gained more female votes than she lost minority votes, but lost enough non-college votes that her popular win wasn't enough to swing the electoral college.
So if we actually want to do the counterfactual, we have to ask about how these various groups would have voted differently under Sanders. But it's not really worth arguing about oppo and campaigns, etc, since we basically learned that all that stuff is moot: in the end, the much bigger partisan and demographic currents (which includes sexism and racism) basically swept away (or were the true causes of) the issue preferences.
So for Sanders, we presumably have:
(1) Sanders does worse with women than Clinton.
(2) Sanders does at least as badly, and possibly slightly worse, with minorities than Clinton.
(3) Sanders does better with non-college whites than Clinton.
Would (3) be enough to offset (1) and (2)? Who the hell can say. But at least we can be clear that (a) it would probably have been a fairly similar outcome, and (b) saying anything more precise than that is pure folly.
posted by chortly at 9:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
The main differences between this and the previous election were:
(1) Clinton did slightly better with women than Obama.
(2) Clinton did slightly worse with minorities than Obama.
(3) Clinton did considerably worse with less educated voters than Obama.
Everything else was pretty much the same for most other demographic categories. Trump got almost exactly as many total votes as Romney, and Clinton got 2.5 million fewer total votes than Obama 2012. She probably gained more female votes than she lost minority votes, but lost enough non-college votes that her popular win wasn't enough to swing the electoral college.
So if we actually want to do the counterfactual, we have to ask about how these various groups would have voted differently under Sanders. But it's not really worth arguing about oppo and campaigns, etc, since we basically learned that all that stuff is moot: in the end, the much bigger partisan and demographic currents (which includes sexism and racism) basically swept away (or were the true causes of) the issue preferences.
So for Sanders, we presumably have:
(1) Sanders does worse with women than Clinton.
(2) Sanders does at least as badly, and possibly slightly worse, with minorities than Clinton.
(3) Sanders does better with non-college whites than Clinton.
Would (3) be enough to offset (1) and (2)? Who the hell can say. But at least we can be clear that (a) it would probably have been a fairly similar outcome, and (b) saying anything more precise than that is pure folly.
posted by chortly at 9:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
(2) Sanders does at least as badly, and possibly slightly worse, with minorities than Clinton.
Sanders' extreme weakness compared to Hillary during the primary in states where he had to reach minority voters suggests that "possibly slightly worse" is probably too charitable. I agree with you that expressing certainty about any of this is dangerous, but it's my strong opinion that you're understating this part.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sanders' extreme weakness compared to Hillary during the primary in states where he had to reach minority voters suggests that "possibly slightly worse" is probably too charitable. I agree with you that expressing certainty about any of this is dangerous, but it's my strong opinion that you're understating this part.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 PM on November 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
What if Clinton was his veep
posted by Apocryphon at 9:52 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 9:52 PM on November 11, 2016
I dunno, Kaine didn't exactly sew up PA or OH with his Catholic white dudeness. I'm not convinced VPs do anything except possibly lock down their home state.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:53 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 9:53 PM on November 11, 2016
USA Today: White supremacists urge trolling Clinton supporters to suicide:
Oh God I've already been on the suicide hotline twice since the election and this makes me so angry and sad. What monstrous people. It's so hard to keep it together if you're grieving. Fuck those murderers.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [34 favorites]
Oh God I've already been on the suicide hotline twice since the election and this makes me so angry and sad. What monstrous people. It's so hard to keep it together if you're grieving. Fuck those murderers.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [34 favorites]
The people who didn't vote this time and voted in previous elections are likely a mixed group, with a decent number of vocal Sanders fans reporting being part of it, some disillusioned and suppressed minority voters likely being in there too, but using Obama as the bar also poses some difficulty as a match because he was a stand out candidate in many ways which would be hard for any follower to match. We can certainly throw out any number of suggestions on why things went as they did, Trump unexpectedly spoke to more people then most of us would have imagined possible, even accepting his celebrity status being a big part of that.
Nothing he did managed to drive his support away as it would have from any other candidate we've ever seen, or we'd hope anyway, but the nature of his flaws was so out of the ordinary the polls couldn't register it, The FBI involvement was without precedent as were the leaks. How you try to rationalize all of that into a clear narrative over what went wrong, as if it were just a Clinton thing is hard to do because it was so extraordinary that no candidate could have prepared for it.
If we postulate that Sanders wouldn't have had to face some of those extraordinary events and therefore would have won, fine, it certainly is possible, but it doesn't really answer the questions over support, where Clinton may have done well in such unusual measures, and where Sanders cold have potentially been shown to have weaknesses of his own had other extraordinary events occurred. Or maybe it was just Clinton hate and Sanders would have gotten a freer hand and picked up supporters from Trump or who stayed home without losing any of Clinton's fans. The unlikeliness of everything makes it a difficult projection since so much had never happened before, and would never happen again in quite the same way.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nothing he did managed to drive his support away as it would have from any other candidate we've ever seen, or we'd hope anyway, but the nature of his flaws was so out of the ordinary the polls couldn't register it, The FBI involvement was without precedent as were the leaks. How you try to rationalize all of that into a clear narrative over what went wrong, as if it were just a Clinton thing is hard to do because it was so extraordinary that no candidate could have prepared for it.
If we postulate that Sanders wouldn't have had to face some of those extraordinary events and therefore would have won, fine, it certainly is possible, but it doesn't really answer the questions over support, where Clinton may have done well in such unusual measures, and where Sanders cold have potentially been shown to have weaknesses of his own had other extraordinary events occurred. Or maybe it was just Clinton hate and Sanders would have gotten a freer hand and picked up supporters from Trump or who stayed home without losing any of Clinton's fans. The unlikeliness of everything makes it a difficult projection since so much had never happened before, and would never happen again in quite the same way.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:54 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Neither Clinton nor Bernie really would have worked as the other's VP. VP isn't just a mechanism to gain points on the campaign trail. It's someone who you have to potentially work with every day for four years, and who you think would be almost as good a president as you would. They had totally different political philosophies.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Okay but they could have at least announced they were putting each other in their cabinets, or at least promote leaked rumors to unite the party
posted by Apocryphon at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016
what if a meteor
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [33 favorites]
Also: delete your Facebook account
I'm someone who has kept my Facebook account primarily because my family is on it. My sisters live half a continent away and they post pics and silly things that happen in their daily lives. Also has because of it's ease of use it's how family members keep in group communication. Barely ever post anything myself and if family wasn't there would have ditched it awhile ago.
My mind has changed about it's usefulness. As an old school activist what I'm seeing happen because people grouping on Facebook before the election is one of the most amazing examples of largely organic organizing I've ever seen. What is coming out of groups, particularly Pantsuit Nation is nothing other then an organizing phenomenon. This is not hyperbole.
Pantsuit Nation grew to over 3 million people, mostly from the US but also everywhere else in the world in less then a month. It's still growing. At out of that three million there are countless other groups that are forming at more localized levels or around particular issues. I'm involved in a couple of them and it's not just a bunch of people sitting around posting how they sad they feel. Real concrete projects are happening. People are having serious conversations of what they can do to combat what is happening and what is going to happen. People are figuring out what skills each have to offer and supporting people who want to do something in figuring out what they can do.
The groups I'm in are so inclusive and this as a principle is being set down as paramount to it's foundation going forward. And people, mostly women are being radicalized. Well actually they're radicalizing themselves. I've seen numerous conversations about how people haven't done this type of thing before, how do we do it? How do we organize? And because the group is already so huge and diverse people that have experience organizing are there to help within minutes. Minutes!
And so, so many stories. It's supporting people, all people and also doing something.
I think what is happening is an example of social organizing based on a feminine perspective. Yes men are involved but it's largely driven by women. And honestly this is one of the reasons why I don't think the larger world is going to notice and will discount it as being not so important. They don't understand it. They'll also discount it as being just a bunch of silly people(women) on Facebook.
Which is fine I guess. Won't stop what's happening.
posted by Jalliah at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [48 favorites]
I think much of this ex-post-facto criticism of Clinton reads a bit like playing with a Magic Eight Ball with all of the options rigged to "you lose." She responded to racist and sexist attacks by her opponents, therefore she's shrill. Had she not responded, she would be weak. She emphasized her experience, therefore she's a technocrat. Had she not, she would have lacked confidence. Calling for unity and collaboration is the new smug.
And in this revisionist narrative, Trump is the assertive maverick who leveraged his business experience to sell populism.
Having an economic policy that would benefit working-class Americans, quite bafflingly, becomes not talking to the working class at all. As someone who ate at a food pantry for some of the Bush years, it was clear that Clinton had a policy and Trump had snake oil.
Just the "shrill" thing is a big fat dog-whistle. Trump is "loud" but Clinton was "shrill." It goes further, the Republicans address white working-class frustration while Democrats engage in "identity politics." Cognitive bias much? Trump attracts fringe groups that openly express racism, sexism, homophobia, and antisemitism and people who address the prejudices of the alt-right are scolds. How about the framing of hate crimes using the Trump name in the last few days dismissed as lone cranks while anti-Trump protesters are petulant and ignorant of real politics?
I don't think this can be fixed by triangulating the perfect candidate to meet all the right demographics, when we're being astroturfed from the ground up by a movement to radicalize conservatives and push FUD onto moderates.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [54 favorites]
And in this revisionist narrative, Trump is the assertive maverick who leveraged his business experience to sell populism.
Having an economic policy that would benefit working-class Americans, quite bafflingly, becomes not talking to the working class at all. As someone who ate at a food pantry for some of the Bush years, it was clear that Clinton had a policy and Trump had snake oil.
Just the "shrill" thing is a big fat dog-whistle. Trump is "loud" but Clinton was "shrill." It goes further, the Republicans address white working-class frustration while Democrats engage in "identity politics." Cognitive bias much? Trump attracts fringe groups that openly express racism, sexism, homophobia, and antisemitism and people who address the prejudices of the alt-right are scolds. How about the framing of hate crimes using the Trump name in the last few days dismissed as lone cranks while anti-Trump protesters are petulant and ignorant of real politics?
I don't think this can be fixed by triangulating the perfect candidate to meet all the right demographics, when we're being astroturfed from the ground up by a movement to radicalize conservatives and push FUD onto moderates.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:00 PM on November 11, 2016 [54 favorites]
but using Obama as the bar also poses some difficulty as a match because he was a stand out candidate in many ways which would be hard for any follower to match
This is a great point that came up on Bill Maher's show tonight. It may just be that the Obama coalition was a specific feature of Obama's appeal that can't be easily replicated.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is a great point that came up on Bill Maher's show tonight. It may just be that the Obama coalition was a specific feature of Obama's appeal that can't be easily replicated.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
uhhh:
Trump’s children and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who guided him throughout the campaign, appear to have retained their influence in an official capacity. Kushner’s presence at the White House on Thursday drew notice from Obama’s staff when he asked, as they toured the West Wing, how many of the individuals there would remain into the next administration. Nearly all will depart along with the president.posted by zachlipton at 10:04 PM on November 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
The world is a terrible, terrible place. I can't believe we've been trying to have children. All that wasted hope. I am so sorry for all the kids that have to grow up in a world where Donald Trump is rewarded. I am sorry that so many of my friends and neighbors are going to be suffering at the hands of Trump. I am so sorry that there are people so blind that they can't see that he's a con-man (I think his fans see he's a racist). And the fucking Supreme Court. All because of 6 digits worth of voters spread out over a handful of states. What is the point of anything?
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [19 favorites]
I felt like in many of these threads when I said this feels like Brexit, or that Clinton was having trouble defining herself and her campaign, that dozens of people immediately pointed out how wrong I was.
I think Trump makes it complicated to draw direct comparisons between Brexit and '16. As I recall, during the primaries he received more media coverage than all Republican candidates combined, and eclipsed Sanders and Clinton separately. While I do agree with Sanders supporters that he should have gotten more coverage, I didn't feel as much it was Clinton's fault as it was that Trump was sucking up all the oxygen in the room.
After the conventions, the Trump media screen continued on. The only times Clinton broke through was the convention itself, when she pneumonia, and the emails. We still have people even now asking why Clinton didn't talk more about policy or who she was, only to be corrected that she did, but it was hardly given coverage. I think the Clinton team saw how unsuccessful Rubio or Jeb was when fighting Trump directly and trying to get coverage ("Please clap"), and decided instead to try turning Trump's advantage into a disadvantage, by baiting him and basically letting the cameras show his reaction: bringing out the Khan family and Machado, and also just winding Trump up during the debates.
In retrospect, I don't think it was a bad strategy. And if Sanders were the nominee, I don't know how he would have been successful in breaking through the Trump media screen either.
posted by FJT at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think Trump makes it complicated to draw direct comparisons between Brexit and '16. As I recall, during the primaries he received more media coverage than all Republican candidates combined, and eclipsed Sanders and Clinton separately. While I do agree with Sanders supporters that he should have gotten more coverage, I didn't feel as much it was Clinton's fault as it was that Trump was sucking up all the oxygen in the room.
After the conventions, the Trump media screen continued on. The only times Clinton broke through was the convention itself, when she pneumonia, and the emails. We still have people even now asking why Clinton didn't talk more about policy or who she was, only to be corrected that she did, but it was hardly given coverage. I think the Clinton team saw how unsuccessful Rubio or Jeb was when fighting Trump directly and trying to get coverage ("Please clap"), and decided instead to try turning Trump's advantage into a disadvantage, by baiting him and basically letting the cameras show his reaction: bringing out the Khan family and Machado, and also just winding Trump up during the debates.
In retrospect, I don't think it was a bad strategy. And if Sanders were the nominee, I don't know how he would have been successful in breaking through the Trump media screen either.
posted by FJT at 10:05 PM on November 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't think this can be fixed by triangulating the perfect candidate to meet all the right demographics, when we're being astroturfed from the ground up by a movement to radicalize conservatives and push FUD onto moderates.
Yes, I definitely won't accept the idea that for Clinton to win she needed to be a man, so that's who the Democrats have to run next time. That, like some of the other potential "issues" that might have changed things are non-starters in that the Democratic party must maintain certain guiding principles or close the shop and join the Republicans since there'd be no point to the party anymore. (I'm not remotely suggesting that's what anyone is currently arguing, just a core belief that needs reasserting.)
posted by gusottertrout at 10:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I definitely won't accept the idea that for Clinton to win she needed to be a man, so that's who the Democrats have to run next time. That, like some of the other potential "issues" that might have changed things are non-starters in that the Democratic party must maintain certain guiding principles or close the shop and join the Republicans since there'd be no point to the party anymore. (I'm not remotely suggesting that's what anyone is currently arguing, just a core belief that needs reasserting.)
posted by gusottertrout at 10:08 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sanders' extreme weakness compared to Hillary during the primary in states where he had to reach minority voters suggests that "possibly slightly worse" is probably too charitable. I agree with you that expressing certainty about any of this is dangerous, but it's my strong opinion that you're understating this part.
How they did head-to-head in the primaries doesn't tell us too much about the general, when African American voters are basically faced with the choice of voting Democrat or staying home. Clinton seems to have done about as well with black voters as Kerry did in '04, which suggests to me that Sanders would probably have done about the same. But whether or not one believes that, it doesn't matter a huge amount, since we're only debating 80% vs 90% of the 10% of voters who are black. In any case, yeah, my broader point is just that looking more closely at the demographics mainly just serves to demonstrate how imponderable the whole thing is.
posted by chortly at 10:10 PM on November 11, 2016
How they did head-to-head in the primaries doesn't tell us too much about the general, when African American voters are basically faced with the choice of voting Democrat or staying home. Clinton seems to have done about as well with black voters as Kerry did in '04, which suggests to me that Sanders would probably have done about the same. But whether or not one believes that, it doesn't matter a huge amount, since we're only debating 80% vs 90% of the 10% of voters who are black. In any case, yeah, my broader point is just that looking more closely at the demographics mainly just serves to demonstrate how imponderable the whole thing is.
posted by chortly at 10:10 PM on November 11, 2016
How they did head-to-head in the primaries doesn't tell us too much about the general, when African American voters are basically faced with the choice of voting Democrat or staying home.
It seems to me if candidate is stronger with a certain segment of the population in the primary, they they'll tend to draw more of them in the general. In this case, staying home in the general is just a proxy for the case where their preferred candidate from the primary doesn't win the nomination.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:14 PM on November 11, 2016
It seems to me if candidate is stronger with a certain segment of the population in the primary, they they'll tend to draw more of them in the general. In this case, staying home in the general is just a proxy for the case where their preferred candidate from the primary doesn't win the nomination.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:14 PM on November 11, 2016
but using Obama as the bar also poses some difficulty as a match because he was a stand out candidate in many ways which would be hard for any follower to match
Yeah, I don't understand the comparisons to Obama. He was a unique candidate.
Especially the many times I've seen people point out that Black people voted less for Clinton than Obama. Ya think?
People also seem to forget how badly Trump beat all the other Republican candidates.
I sort of thought it was because they were all terrible, but was a little concerned. But it really showed that they didn't want someone with any skills to do the job. Some of those people would have been Republican stars a few years ago, and some were. But Republican voters did not want a Republican president.
posted by bongo_x at 10:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I don't understand the comparisons to Obama. He was a unique candidate.
Especially the many times I've seen people point out that Black people voted less for Clinton than Obama. Ya think?
People also seem to forget how badly Trump beat all the other Republican candidates.
I sort of thought it was because they were all terrible, but was a little concerned. But it really showed that they didn't want someone with any skills to do the job. Some of those people would have been Republican stars a few years ago, and some were. But Republican voters did not want a Republican president.
posted by bongo_x at 10:15 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm inclined to go with a slightly refined version of "there is something bigger going on. Stupid angry people."
I've seen this noted elsewhere: the Brexit vote. Dutarte in the Philippines. The Colombian popular vote to reject the government peace agreement with FARC where the people least affected were most opposed. There is a popular shift towards fuck-it-all. Towards believing in great balloons of nothing. People who at best map history in 50/60-year windows, and should we really be so hopeful to believe otherwise on a grand scale?
(The deep cause might be climate change, the Arab Spring, the end of uneasy cohabitation in countries on the Mediterranean coast that had their own ugly political make-do settlements until they fell to pieces in the last battles of the Great War. If there are historians in the years ahead, they'll write it better.)
And the reason I say "delete your Facebook account" is that Zuckerberg has explicitly denied that the Facebook ad model could have had any political influence, even though that contradicts the ad model that Facebook is selling to marketers. And we know that Parscale threw millions at social media (and Putin probably the same) with the intent of creating bullshit vote-depressing narratives, for which I hope there is a retributive afterlife.
The scariest part of the aftermath is the reporting from schools and colleges. Young men are arseholes, we know it, we know it, but there was an assumption drawn from the Tea Party and some of the 2016 crowds that the demographic lean was heading to the grave. No, there are too many young lulz-fascist bros among us.
posted by holgate at 10:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
I've seen this noted elsewhere: the Brexit vote. Dutarte in the Philippines. The Colombian popular vote to reject the government peace agreement with FARC where the people least affected were most opposed. There is a popular shift towards fuck-it-all. Towards believing in great balloons of nothing. People who at best map history in 50/60-year windows, and should we really be so hopeful to believe otherwise on a grand scale?
(The deep cause might be climate change, the Arab Spring, the end of uneasy cohabitation in countries on the Mediterranean coast that had their own ugly political make-do settlements until they fell to pieces in the last battles of the Great War. If there are historians in the years ahead, they'll write it better.)
And the reason I say "delete your Facebook account" is that Zuckerberg has explicitly denied that the Facebook ad model could have had any political influence, even though that contradicts the ad model that Facebook is selling to marketers. And we know that Parscale threw millions at social media (and Putin probably the same) with the intent of creating bullshit vote-depressing narratives, for which I hope there is a retributive afterlife.
The scariest part of the aftermath is the reporting from schools and colleges. Young men are arseholes, we know it, we know it, but there was an assumption drawn from the Tea Party and some of the 2016 crowds that the demographic lean was heading to the grave. No, there are too many young lulz-fascist bros among us.
posted by holgate at 10:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
What do Democrats need?
1. A clearly articulated legislative agenda and manifesto.
2. A protest movement created to keep questions about Republican corruption, policy, and its effects in the news.
Which is largely how the Tea Party worked. The Religious Right before then also served to keep FUD in the news cycle. What we can't do is let the next administration become the "new normal" by ever letting those questions drop out of public view.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
1. A clearly articulated legislative agenda and manifesto.
2. A protest movement created to keep questions about Republican corruption, policy, and its effects in the news.
Which is largely how the Tea Party worked. The Religious Right before then also served to keep FUD in the news cycle. What we can't do is let the next administration become the "new normal" by ever letting those questions drop out of public view.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:26 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
I spoke to a friend today (who voted for HRC) that basically presented the "Trump as the wildcard" idea: That Clinton's accusations of corruption have to do her time working in the government, which made it hard for people believe they were getting something different. Whereas Donald Trump's accusations of corruption have to do with business and nobody knows he would govern, because he's never been in the government. And because of this, some folks (enough folks) were willing to take a chance.
I don't know if I believe that, but I think it's important at least to listen to how people came to decide on voting for Donald.
posted by FJT at 10:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know if I believe that, but I think it's important at least to listen to how people came to decide on voting for Donald.
posted by FJT at 10:28 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Look, special hot take alert here, but I'm inclined to think that NAFTA was what put her (loss) over the top? Because racism and misogyny are pretty much equal factors everywhere. But (correct me if I'm wrong) there is an intense NAFTA hatred that's strongest in one region, and it looks like that region was the decisive swing. PA, OH, MI, WI.
Not that I'm saying it's all economic anxiety. But I think there's some localized cultural nuance. And not that I think Michael Moore speaks with any authority, but on this specific point I think he was speaking from his intimately lived experience. I'd totally believe that there's A Block of Tromp voters who specifically hate the Clintons because of NAFTA.
But as Jamelle Bouie said in the Slate article I linked above, Obama didn't cure racism in those voters, he overcame it by being "one of the good ones" against shitty opposition. But given a choice of an overt appeal to that racism and a party representing brown people and diversity, they choose white nationalism and preserving their privilege.
I don't think that's all he was saying there.
And the interesting thing is that - so Tromp put white supremacy on the table like it hasn't been in decades, just like Sanders put socialism or "socialism" on the table for the first time in decades. And, speaking for myself, I didn't realize how much I wanted Sanders' policies until I heard them. I knew in theory I wanted a fairer system, but because it was never an option ... it was just completely outside my mental framework for making this decision. I'd never thought about how it stacked up against my other values. Plugging that in was like connecting a circuit: all of a sudden it lit me up.
Instead of dogwhistle/loudspeaker, I think a better metaphor here is vegetarian food/red meat - particularly since the things Tromp tapped into are viscerally felt. Vegetarian food is perfectly fine and if it's the only choice, you learn to enjoy it, and choose which kind of dish you like better. But for most people, a good steak beats even the best vegetarian dish.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not that I'm saying it's all economic anxiety. But I think there's some localized cultural nuance. And not that I think Michael Moore speaks with any authority, but on this specific point I think he was speaking from his intimately lived experience. I'd totally believe that there's A Block of Tromp voters who specifically hate the Clintons because of NAFTA.
But as Jamelle Bouie said in the Slate article I linked above, Obama didn't cure racism in those voters, he overcame it by being "one of the good ones" against shitty opposition. But given a choice of an overt appeal to that racism and a party representing brown people and diversity, they choose white nationalism and preserving their privilege.
I don't think that's all he was saying there.
while race was a part of every conversation and every argument, no one tried to litigate the prevailing racial order of nominal tolerance. We were, on paper, a multiracial democracy, and our elites agreed to keep that issue off the table.Kind of like how there's no candidate for peace, and there's no candidate that's against the surveillance state; so no matter how important those issues are, we can't make the choice on those criteria. We have to fall back to our other priorities.
And the interesting thing is that - so Tromp put white supremacy on the table like it hasn't been in decades, just like Sanders put socialism or "socialism" on the table for the first time in decades. And, speaking for myself, I didn't realize how much I wanted Sanders' policies until I heard them. I knew in theory I wanted a fairer system, but because it was never an option ... it was just completely outside my mental framework for making this decision. I'd never thought about how it stacked up against my other values. Plugging that in was like connecting a circuit: all of a sudden it lit me up.
Instead of dogwhistle/loudspeaker, I think a better metaphor here is vegetarian food/red meat - particularly since the things Tromp tapped into are viscerally felt. Vegetarian food is perfectly fine and if it's the only choice, you learn to enjoy it, and choose which kind of dish you like better. But for most people, a good steak beats even the best vegetarian dish.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:29 PM on November 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It seems to me if candidate is stronger with a certain segment of the population in the primary, they they'll tend to draw more of them in the general. In this case, staying home in the general is just a proxy for the case where their preferred candidate from the primary doesn't win the nomination.
Sure. But the nice thing about quantifying these things is that we can get some plausible bounds on what we're talking about. Kerry and Clinton both got around 88% of the black vote vs 95% for Obama, and black turnout for Kerry was 60% vs 66% for Obama, and remains unknown for Clinton but is almost certainly between those two values. So it seems plausible to guess that Sanders would be in same range as Kerry and Clinton, which is only 6 or 7 points less than Obama on both measures; but even if you think Sanders would do much worse than Kerry for some reason, the plausible range only amounts to a tenth of a tenth of the electorate -- which might have been enough to flip a close election, but there is no way we could ever estimate that tenth of a tenth precisely enough to make any clear statement about how the election might have gone otherwise.
posted by chortly at 10:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure. But the nice thing about quantifying these things is that we can get some plausible bounds on what we're talking about. Kerry and Clinton both got around 88% of the black vote vs 95% for Obama, and black turnout for Kerry was 60% vs 66% for Obama, and remains unknown for Clinton but is almost certainly between those two values. So it seems plausible to guess that Sanders would be in same range as Kerry and Clinton, which is only 6 or 7 points less than Obama on both measures; but even if you think Sanders would do much worse than Kerry for some reason, the plausible range only amounts to a tenth of a tenth of the electorate -- which might have been enough to flip a close election, but there is no way we could ever estimate that tenth of a tenth precisely enough to make any clear statement about how the election might have gone otherwise.
posted by chortly at 10:34 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am so sorry for all the kids that have to grow up in a world where Donald Trump is rewarded.
We've been living in that world for over 40 years. I've mentioned before that I long ago chose NOT to bring children into this world, with Inevitable Environmental Collapse being the main reason but our system for rewarding evil people also a factor. It was inevitable that a truly evil but famous person would rise to the Presidency, and no matter how generally incompetent he is, Trump's skill at being Famous is legendary, and with the Republican Party's dedication to gerrymandering, voter suppression and bigotry, he realized a decade ago that it would be his vehicle for political success if he just started with false populism and then shouted the things other Republicans only whispered. The Media (including/maybe especially the New Media) over the last few decades created the desire for a "Leader" like Trump, and he filled the bill.
This was a 'change' election... but so was 2008, and Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton because he put himself forth as an 'agent of change'. On reflection, I think McCain lost votes for running with Palin purely because of misogyny, a factor underestimated as much then as now. But with a large segment of the (yes, mostly white) population seeing 'everything going downhill' this year (partly because Obama didn't bring The Change they think he promised), they saw one candidate who would make minor changes in the direction and one who promised to go right over the cliff into the Grand Canyon, and they decided to enjoy the ride - mostly because none of them were willing to participate in the hard job of pushing things back up the hill.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
We've been living in that world for over 40 years. I've mentioned before that I long ago chose NOT to bring children into this world, with Inevitable Environmental Collapse being the main reason but our system for rewarding evil people also a factor. It was inevitable that a truly evil but famous person would rise to the Presidency, and no matter how generally incompetent he is, Trump's skill at being Famous is legendary, and with the Republican Party's dedication to gerrymandering, voter suppression and bigotry, he realized a decade ago that it would be his vehicle for political success if he just started with false populism and then shouted the things other Republicans only whispered. The Media (including/maybe especially the New Media) over the last few decades created the desire for a "Leader" like Trump, and he filled the bill.
This was a 'change' election... but so was 2008, and Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton because he put himself forth as an 'agent of change'. On reflection, I think McCain lost votes for running with Palin purely because of misogyny, a factor underestimated as much then as now. But with a large segment of the (yes, mostly white) population seeing 'everything going downhill' this year (partly because Obama didn't bring The Change they think he promised), they saw one candidate who would make minor changes in the direction and one who promised to go right over the cliff into the Grand Canyon, and they decided to enjoy the ride - mostly because none of them were willing to participate in the hard job of pushing things back up the hill.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:35 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also though if you can convince people that it was NAFTA, you can convince them it'll be different for other female candidates. That's really just a Clinton thing.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:39 PM on November 11, 2016
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:39 PM on November 11, 2016
Re Pantsuit Nation - have there been any ideas floated to get it off Facebook? I would love to join, but I just can't do Facebook (for a zillion reasons).
posted by longdaysjourney at 10:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 10:41 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Day 3 for me began with a friend posting news about the KKK rally planned in NC, and the first comment immediately from a white woman literally saying, "But not all white people voted for him!" and it went downhill from there.
I've been thinking a lot today about the adage common among minorities and women that you have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good as a white male. And it kind of feels like that with some of the attempts at deflecting/scapegoating the voter demographics--literally only 100% of the Black/Latino vote would have been acceptable, but less than 50% of the white vote? Not as big an issue. Or the fragility of how it's hurtful for white people to be named as the problem. The derailing and the defensiveness is really disheartening, and relitigating the primaries isn't really getting to solving the problems at hand.
posted by TwoStride at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot today about the adage common among minorities and women that you have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good as a white male. And it kind of feels like that with some of the attempts at deflecting/scapegoating the voter demographics--literally only 100% of the Black/Latino vote would have been acceptable, but less than 50% of the white vote? Not as big an issue. Or the fragility of how it's hurtful for white people to be named as the problem. The derailing and the defensiveness is really disheartening, and relitigating the primaries isn't really getting to solving the problems at hand.
posted by TwoStride at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
For Clinton supporters, this was a continuation of change election. The first female candidate following the first black president, and running on a more progressive and inclusive platform. It was supposed to lock in the changes started with Obama, but went astray at the end due to many of the forces mentioned above, though not from lack of fervent support among her followers.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Re Pantsuit Nation - have there been any ideas floated to get it off Facebook? I would love to join, but I just can't do Facebook (for a zillion reasons).
Maybe for specific groups. I don't know. Not for the whole thing though. I don't see how it would or even could work in another medium even if it wanted too.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the parallels with Brexit can be overstated.
The Brexit referendum had a high turnout at 72%. Leave voters had lower incomes than remain voters. Whether they were misled or not, the Brexit vote was genuinely about the mobilization of working class voters.
The 2016 presidential election had a lowish turnout of 57%. Trump extended the Republican vote to some less affluent voters, but Trump voters were still richer than Hillary's. Trump only got about the same number of voters as Romney/McCain, but the Democrat vote collapsed for Hillary compared to Obama.
The 2016 presidential election result wasn't about a massive mobilization of the working class for Trump.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Brexit referendum had a high turnout at 72%. Leave voters had lower incomes than remain voters. Whether they were misled or not, the Brexit vote was genuinely about the mobilization of working class voters.
The 2016 presidential election had a lowish turnout of 57%. Trump extended the Republican vote to some less affluent voters, but Trump voters were still richer than Hillary's. Trump only got about the same number of voters as Romney/McCain, but the Democrat vote collapsed for Hillary compared to Obama.
The 2016 presidential election result wasn't about a massive mobilization of the working class for Trump.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:52 PM on November 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
>>You know how you WANTED people to react to a racist? That's how they'd actually react to a socialist.
>During the extensive canvassing I did for Sanders in Ohio, that turned out not to be the case.I'd agree with your experience canvassing. I was caucus captain for Bernie in the Kansas primaries. Talked with a lot of people on caucus day. There were plenty of people who had switched parties to vote for Bernie. My chief partner in herding cats that day was an ex-Marine who had been Republican all his life. Bernie was going to be his first vote as a Democrat. Plenty of other Kansans who were not usually Democrats were there as well. And I've mentioned my own brother-in-law before in this thread. He's a 60+ year old lifelong Republican who found himself liking Bernie, liking the Greens more than just as a protest vote, and is now kinda open to socialist ideas even if he might quail slightly at the word "socialist".
This is just anecdotal, but I think Bernie showed there's an opening for being blatantly liberal and socialist, especially in the way he phrased things. I'm saying this not because I'm trying to re-fight the primaries or blame Clinton for the loss. I was with her fully after the primaries were over. Just saying this because it's evidence of a sort that Democrats can be socialist, can go full-throated against the economic injustices, and they will attract people from across the aisle.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:53 PM on November 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Re Pantsuit Nation - have there been any ideas floated to get it off Facebook? I would love to join, but I just can't do Facebook (for a zillion reasons).
I don't use Facebook either. But I'm probably going to join just to get into Pantsuit Nation. I think it's important for us to organize and this seems like one of the better public ways of doing so.
I'll probably personally use my real name, but you could easily use a pseudonym, lie or fudge about your real location, don't upload a photo of yourself, and don't link to any family or friends. I would think you'd be almost as private that way as you would be on Metafilter. You could even use one of the cheap VPNs to give some slight obfuscation as to your location / identity.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't use Facebook either. But I'm probably going to join just to get into Pantsuit Nation. I think it's important for us to organize and this seems like one of the better public ways of doing so.
I'll probably personally use my real name, but you could easily use a pseudonym, lie or fudge about your real location, don't upload a photo of yourself, and don't link to any family or friends. I would think you'd be almost as private that way as you would be on Metafilter. You could even use one of the cheap VPNs to give some slight obfuscation as to your location / identity.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:58 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
maybe voters are less afraid of old socialist men like Sanders and Corbyn because they don't look like they will be physically capable of storming your home and forcibly redistributing your wealth
posted by Apocryphon at 11:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:01 PM on November 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't use Facebook either. But I'm probably going to join just to get into Pantsuit Nation.
I've been considering joining Facebook for this. I probably won't - every time I consider joining Facebook, I wait a week or two and then it's discovered they've found new and innovative ways to be vile to their users - but I'm open to being persuaded.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been considering joining Facebook for this. I probably won't - every time I consider joining Facebook, I wait a week or two and then it's discovered they've found new and innovative ways to be vile to their users - but I'm open to being persuaded.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump only got about the same number of voters as Romney/McCain, but the Democrat vote collapsed for Hillary compared to Obama.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that these stats/graphics were made before 7 million votes out of the West Coast were counted? That graphic understates Clinton's support by several million votes. Secondly, starting the Y axis at 52,000,000? Yeah no. That's like "how to lie with statistics vol 1".
Clinton received slightly fewer votes than Obama 2012. She received millions more votes than John Kerry and will end up having received 12 million more votes than Al Gore.
posted by Justinian at 11:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [38 favorites]
How many times does it have to be pointed out that these stats/graphics were made before 7 million votes out of the West Coast were counted? That graphic understates Clinton's support by several million votes. Secondly, starting the Y axis at 52,000,000? Yeah no. That's like "how to lie with statistics vol 1".
Clinton received slightly fewer votes than Obama 2012. She received millions more votes than John Kerry and will end up having received 12 million more votes than Al Gore.
posted by Justinian at 11:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [38 favorites]
Thanks so much for all the posts and thoughts, they've been keeping me sane the last few days.
A few of mine:
Nobody minds talking about how we can reach people better, but I'm really having trouble with the rage from people literally blaming Clinton and "her supporters" for the loss. I get that this is how some are processing their mourning, but it is really very toxic. I belong to a couple of FB groups which are organising to resist, and one lost literally most of the women because of some guys who were attacking Pantsuit Nation and literally shouting with rage that PN and it's voters were the reason we were in this mess in the first place because we let middle-aged feminism get in the way of the "real issues". I mean, you can't make this shit up. If your point is to look to the future, I think everyone is willing to take the discussion, but I would really really like it if the left could assume that 1) Many people really did enthusiastically support Clinton and 2) We aren't all party machine centrists and 3) We are all in this fucking boat together. You may think Sanders would have won, fine. I don't think he could have. We both have our personal and factual reasons for these positions but are we really helping anything by attacking each other at this point? I *also* find it extremely unhelpful to attack people who kept attacking Clinton long after her nomination was announced. Was it a factor in the election? Maybe. Maybe not. But again, not helpful.
I'm not surprised at all to find Trump stepping back a bit on health care, because I really believe the thing many of us missed the most is how toxic the ACA was in driving the vote from the suburbs. I don't believe for a second that this was a working class revolt, but I believe that many of the Trump voters are from a piece of the middle class who are not really very secure anymore. The HBR article cited earlier (though I think it rather noxiously glosses over the racism and the sexism) gets it pretty much right about the disaffected Trump voters. I've been in touch the last few days with some anguished Trump voters from my past and they really don't like him, but they *all* talk about the ACA rate increases virtually killing them. They believed that if Clinton got in, there'd be no real ACA reform and they would continue to suffer. (which oddly doesn't mean that they support single payer, but anyhow). I am absolutely not giving them a pass for doing this, just saying that I think I really underestimated how much they felt the burden of this law. If Trump is smart, he knows this is one of the main issues which got him elected, and he'll reward them with some change which looks like relief.
The markets aren't going to punish him. A lot of the bad feeling in the UK about Brexit is because the markets have dumped the pound into the toilet. Nearly all of Trump's early moves have been to tell businesses that he will undo most of the consumer protections which have been put into place. The business community may not respect, trust or like him as business leaders, but they will see opportunity in a market which is honestly pretty short on opportunity right now. I believe the crash will come later, but then it will be easy to blame on foreign powers, I fear. I hope very much I am wrong about this.
posted by frumiousb at 11:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
A few of mine:
Nobody minds talking about how we can reach people better, but I'm really having trouble with the rage from people literally blaming Clinton and "her supporters" for the loss. I get that this is how some are processing their mourning, but it is really very toxic. I belong to a couple of FB groups which are organising to resist, and one lost literally most of the women because of some guys who were attacking Pantsuit Nation and literally shouting with rage that PN and it's voters were the reason we were in this mess in the first place because we let middle-aged feminism get in the way of the "real issues". I mean, you can't make this shit up. If your point is to look to the future, I think everyone is willing to take the discussion, but I would really really like it if the left could assume that 1) Many people really did enthusiastically support Clinton and 2) We aren't all party machine centrists and 3) We are all in this fucking boat together. You may think Sanders would have won, fine. I don't think he could have. We both have our personal and factual reasons for these positions but are we really helping anything by attacking each other at this point? I *also* find it extremely unhelpful to attack people who kept attacking Clinton long after her nomination was announced. Was it a factor in the election? Maybe. Maybe not. But again, not helpful.
I'm not surprised at all to find Trump stepping back a bit on health care, because I really believe the thing many of us missed the most is how toxic the ACA was in driving the vote from the suburbs. I don't believe for a second that this was a working class revolt, but I believe that many of the Trump voters are from a piece of the middle class who are not really very secure anymore. The HBR article cited earlier (though I think it rather noxiously glosses over the racism and the sexism) gets it pretty much right about the disaffected Trump voters. I've been in touch the last few days with some anguished Trump voters from my past and they really don't like him, but they *all* talk about the ACA rate increases virtually killing them. They believed that if Clinton got in, there'd be no real ACA reform and they would continue to suffer. (which oddly doesn't mean that they support single payer, but anyhow). I am absolutely not giving them a pass for doing this, just saying that I think I really underestimated how much they felt the burden of this law. If Trump is smart, he knows this is one of the main issues which got him elected, and he'll reward them with some change which looks like relief.
The markets aren't going to punish him. A lot of the bad feeling in the UK about Brexit is because the markets have dumped the pound into the toilet. Nearly all of Trump's early moves have been to tell businesses that he will undo most of the consumer protections which have been put into place. The business community may not respect, trust or like him as business leaders, but they will see opportunity in a market which is honestly pretty short on opportunity right now. I believe the crash will come later, but then it will be easy to blame on foreign powers, I fear. I hope very much I am wrong about this.
posted by frumiousb at 11:39 PM on November 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
The 2016 presidential election had a lowish turnout of 57%. Trump extended the Republican vote to some less affluent voters, but Trump voters were still richer than Hillary's. Trump only got about the same number of voters as Romney/McCain, but the Democrat vote collapsed for Hillary compared to Obama.
I'm not quite sure this will completely hold true when all the votes are counted (there are still millions being counted, especially many in California, including mine). The number of votes cast is is currently down 1% from 2012 based on the current numbers, but up 2.2% in the states where it was close, and up as much as 10% in Florida and Nevada. Once they're done counting all the ballots, more people will have voted this year than in 2012. It's frustrating to me how much of the punditry has gone ahead with drawing conclusions from national numbers that are still missing millions of votes.
People turned out (though we're still waiting for the full numbers). Voter suppression explains a bit of WI perhaps, but not really FL, PA, and MI. I think a better explanation is that minority turnout was good but fell somewhat from 2012 levels (which in turn was a fall from 2008 levels) because the Obama coalition's enthusiasm was a special snowflake, while it was at 2012 levels or better among Trump supporters. MI and PA are a balancing act: lose, but not too badly, in the majority of the state's counties, but turn out enough reliably Democratic voters in urban areas to make up the difference and win. You can blame the extra white voters who came out for Trump in the country or the lower turnout among those who didn't come out for Clinton in the city, or just say it's a bit of both.
All that said, the margin of victory was about 107,000 voters who had to be properly distributed across three states, so you can point to basically anything and say "that's what caused this."
(One other quick note: any analysis that just compares the number of Trump and Clinton voters to 2012 is ignoring the fact that three times as many voters went third party in 2016 as they did in 2012.)
posted by zachlipton at 11:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm not quite sure this will completely hold true when all the votes are counted (there are still millions being counted, especially many in California, including mine). The number of votes cast is is currently down 1% from 2012 based on the current numbers, but up 2.2% in the states where it was close, and up as much as 10% in Florida and Nevada. Once they're done counting all the ballots, more people will have voted this year than in 2012. It's frustrating to me how much of the punditry has gone ahead with drawing conclusions from national numbers that are still missing millions of votes.
People turned out (though we're still waiting for the full numbers). Voter suppression explains a bit of WI perhaps, but not really FL, PA, and MI. I think a better explanation is that minority turnout was good but fell somewhat from 2012 levels (which in turn was a fall from 2008 levels) because the Obama coalition's enthusiasm was a special snowflake, while it was at 2012 levels or better among Trump supporters. MI and PA are a balancing act: lose, but not too badly, in the majority of the state's counties, but turn out enough reliably Democratic voters in urban areas to make up the difference and win. You can blame the extra white voters who came out for Trump in the country or the lower turnout among those who didn't come out for Clinton in the city, or just say it's a bit of both.
All that said, the margin of victory was about 107,000 voters who had to be properly distributed across three states, so you can point to basically anything and say "that's what caused this."
(One other quick note: any analysis that just compares the number of Trump and Clinton voters to 2012 is ignoring the fact that three times as many voters went third party in 2016 as they did in 2012.)
posted by zachlipton at 11:40 PM on November 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Or, to put it another way, let's look at Florida. The number of votes cast was up 10.8% over 2012, and Trump won. That's not the Democratic vote collapsing for Clinton, that's a stream of people who sat out the last election coming to vote for Trump (which incidentally might explain the polling error, which wasn't very large: these voters were filtered out by the likely voter screen because they didn't vote in 2012).
For example: "A record number of voters turned out in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, heavily favoring Democrat Hillary Clinton. But the gains in those urban centers were wiped out by the even stronger turnout for Trump up and down the state in smaller communities such as Collier County."
The only reason the margin in Florida was only 1.3% was because Democrats did turn out in record numbers; their record numbers just weren't enough.
posted by zachlipton at 11:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
For example: "A record number of voters turned out in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, heavily favoring Democrat Hillary Clinton. But the gains in those urban centers were wiped out by the even stronger turnout for Trump up and down the state in smaller communities such as Collier County."
The only reason the margin in Florida was only 1.3% was because Democrats did turn out in record numbers; their record numbers just weren't enough.
posted by zachlipton at 11:51 PM on November 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is no time to be diplomatic – we should not wish Donald Trump well (Guardian).
New Zealand Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei writes about her party's refusal to support a Parliamentary motion congratulating Trump:
New Zealand Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei writes about her party's refusal to support a Parliamentary motion congratulating Trump:
I don’t believe this is a time to be diplomatic or polite. If others wish to defend the actions of a sexual predator, they are welcome to. I won’t, and neither will my colleagues....posted by Pink Frost at 11:56 PM on November 11, 2016 [43 favorites]
It has been a gloomy couple of days for people with progressive values all around the world. However, there is hope. Yesterday, we had one of our best days of membership sign-ups ever. I would not be surprised if this is the case for other progressive political parties around the world. Trump’s election is a powerful motivator.
It is a call to action to stay involved in the governance of our country, and to be inclusive of others. To be kind. To be hopeful. To listen to each other when we disagree. To speak truth to power.
We need to say now, even louder than ever before, that we will keep fighting for the values we believe in. We will not stay silent when men brag about sexually assaulting women. We won’t accept lies and hate speech about women, or migrant, refugee and Muslim communities. We won’t stop pushing to prevent catastrophic climate change.
Donald Trump may now have the biggest megaphone in the world but, collectively, our voices, and our actions, will be louder.
I've been considering joining Facebook for this.
The police state has been patient enough with you. Stop making their job so difficult.
posted by rokusan at 11:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The police state has been patient enough with you. Stop making their job so difficult.
posted by rokusan at 11:59 PM on November 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is no time to be diplomatic – we should not wish Donald Trump well
There's a difference between wishing him well, and hoping the rare fragments of decency that showed up occasionally during his campaign will be what guides him over the next few years.
Still want him on trial for Trump U's fraud. When/if he enacts any measures against immigrants, I want Melania's status thoroughly investigated - potentially resulting in stripping her citizenship and deportation. (I have nothing in particular against her, other than her taste in men. However, he shouldn't have picked a core issue that his own wife was guilty of--and it's not like she didn't know either of these facts.) When he goes to rallies - which he's planning on continuing - I want him barraged with stories of the people his policies have harmed.
But I also want his next two months to be spent in somber consideration of WTF HAVE I GOTTEN MYSELF INTO, and that means wishing that he is "well" enough to not be distracted by his normal greed and glory-seeking.
After that? I want someone to file a lawsuit with grounds to have his taxes released. Possibly related to the Foundation's donations received purchases made on his behalf.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:03 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
There's a difference between wishing him well, and hoping the rare fragments of decency that showed up occasionally during his campaign will be what guides him over the next few years.
Still want him on trial for Trump U's fraud. When/if he enacts any measures against immigrants, I want Melania's status thoroughly investigated - potentially resulting in stripping her citizenship and deportation. (I have nothing in particular against her, other than her taste in men. However, he shouldn't have picked a core issue that his own wife was guilty of--and it's not like she didn't know either of these facts.) When he goes to rallies - which he's planning on continuing - I want him barraged with stories of the people his policies have harmed.
But I also want his next two months to be spent in somber consideration of WTF HAVE I GOTTEN MYSELF INTO, and that means wishing that he is "well" enough to not be distracted by his normal greed and glory-seeking.
After that? I want someone to file a lawsuit with grounds to have his taxes released. Possibly related to the Foundation's donations received purchases made on his behalf.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:03 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
All that said, the margin of victory was about 107,000 voters who had to be properly distributed across three states, so you can point to basically anything and say "that's what caused this."
It's a funny thing with winner-take-all.
The DNC should be absolutely taken to task for this, not because they lost, but because it was so close at all. Most people agree with this. Win or lose, it's awful to outspend, outnumber, and outplan* so much and then underperform so badly against such a weak, amateurish opponent. No matter who ends up getting the lion's share of the blame months/years from now, there has to be some, because something has to change for them to be a winning team again.
But imagine (sigh) that Clinton had just barely won by having that extra 107,000 votes. We wouldn't even be talking about the disappointing result. We'd say whew, glad everything is fine after all, and the people whose bad decisions are now being questioned would be celebrated and rewarded. For the same horrible performance.
Funny how that works.
* Perhaps my last Hamilton reference of the year.
posted by rokusan at 12:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's a funny thing with winner-take-all.
The DNC should be absolutely taken to task for this, not because they lost, but because it was so close at all. Most people agree with this. Win or lose, it's awful to outspend, outnumber, and outplan* so much and then underperform so badly against such a weak, amateurish opponent. No matter who ends up getting the lion's share of the blame months/years from now, there has to be some, because something has to change for them to be a winning team again.
But imagine (sigh) that Clinton had just barely won by having that extra 107,000 votes. We wouldn't even be talking about the disappointing result. We'd say whew, glad everything is fine after all, and the people whose bad decisions are now being questioned would be celebrated and rewarded. For the same horrible performance.
Funny how that works.
* Perhaps my last Hamilton reference of the year.
posted by rokusan at 12:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
meanwhile in the rest of the world ...
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:28 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
meanwhile in the rest of the world ...
Hopefully that's not in the country that just voted brexit, right?
posted by ominous_paws at 1:17 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
trump rallies! who will be the next riefenstahl? i have a favorite, but i'm keeping it under my hat for now (starts with 'K')...
Working title: "Trump of the Will"
posted by sour cream at 1:48 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Working title: "Trump of the Will"
posted by sour cream at 1:48 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
The DNC this year was one of the most positive, uplifting and message driven conventions I've ever seen. If you watched that and didn't feel inspired and didn't catch the main policies and themes of Clinton, well...
The main thing was inclusion. Stronger together. That's what we were selling. At least 100,000 white people in key states saw that and thought "no, we'd rather go it alone. " Or didn't see it, I guess.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:00 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
The main thing was inclusion. Stronger together. That's what we were selling. At least 100,000 white people in key states saw that and thought "no, we'd rather go it alone. " Or didn't see it, I guess.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:00 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
Just a few thoughts on how the first one or two years of a Trump presidency may play out, in no particular order:
Prediction #1 (Consolidation of Power)
There’ll be purge-like personnel shifts in ministries and government agencies. Some government agencies, such as the EPA, will be defunded to the point where they can barely function. Others (CIA? FBI? Secret Service?) will increase in size and power to a point that noone expected. Elected officials that oppose the government will be “encouraged” to leave office. In the first weeks, there’ll be calls to “come together” in order to get the never-Trumpers back into the fold. After that, GOP Senators and congressmen who don’t toe the party line will be openly denounced as traitors. After some reshuffling, the GOP will become more centralized, local candidates will need to be approved from the top. Look out for: Pledges of loyalty with some of those who refuse being encouraged to step down.
Prediction #2 (War on traditional media)
Critical journalism will become much more difficult and thus much more rare. Only “friendly” journalists will have access to press conferences. Critical news articles will be routinely answered with libel suits to the point where a newspaper will think twice about breaking a scandal. If sensitive (or embarrassing) material gets published, this will be regarded as treason. Some journalists will go to jail. Many will quit their jobs. Newspapers, who are weakened already due to Internet competition, won’t be able to put up a defense. Look out for: New laws that will force traditional newspapers, such as WaPo, NYT and others to either go bankrupt or be reduced to a mere shadaw of their former selves.
Prediction #3 (Taking control of new media)
“Cyberbullying” will become a big topic. Anonymous internet forums will be banned. Posters will be required either to sign with their real names, or possibly internet forums will be required to keep track of and verify the identity of posters. Say goodbye to MeFi as we know it. Facebook, Twitter etc. will resist this, but will be subject to extreme regulations, or ultimately just nationalized. The reasoning will be that they are too important infrastructure to be left in private hands. Same for physical infrastructure. Maybe the NSA will take care of all this, maybe some other, new government agency. Look out for: Some sort of internet ID or passport required to have access to certain parts of the net.
Prediction #4 (Squashing of protest)
Protests and demonstrations against the new policies will be treated as insurgencies. Waving protest signs or yelling at the president will be treated as terrorism or attempted murder. Internet posts that are critical of the president and his politics will be regarded as physical threats and will result in visits from the secret service (which will triple in size within the first six months) or possibly some other, new government agency. There will be a lot of self-censoring and a lot of distrust towards strangers. There will be violent reactions, in form of violent protests, which will just pave the way for more restrictive laws and treating the protestors as "terrorists". Look out for: Discussion whether citizens critical of the government should be allowed to own guns.
Prediction #5 (Foreign politics)
In the first year or two, there will be surprisingly little tension with foreign nations. Europe will decry the erosion of civil liberties, but will be told harshly to mind its own business (under the applause of Russia and China). Relations with Russia will become friendly to the point that there is talk of joint military operations in order to bring peace to the Middle East. There will be technological cooperation with China in such fields as controlling and monitoring internet traffic. There will be a few token demands for better trade conditions with China and there will be some sort of trade deal that will be hailed as a huge victory for the US. In return, China is allowed to gain control over a few more islands in the Pacific (hopefully not the Philippines, though), to which the US will acquiesce since “they are not of primary strategic importance to us.” All this will last until the first phase of power consolidation (see above) is finished. After that, all bets are off. Look out for: The EU not knowing how to react to US citizens applying for political asylum.
posted by sour cream at 2:17 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Prediction #1 (Consolidation of Power)
There’ll be purge-like personnel shifts in ministries and government agencies. Some government agencies, such as the EPA, will be defunded to the point where they can barely function. Others (CIA? FBI? Secret Service?) will increase in size and power to a point that noone expected. Elected officials that oppose the government will be “encouraged” to leave office. In the first weeks, there’ll be calls to “come together” in order to get the never-Trumpers back into the fold. After that, GOP Senators and congressmen who don’t toe the party line will be openly denounced as traitors. After some reshuffling, the GOP will become more centralized, local candidates will need to be approved from the top. Look out for: Pledges of loyalty with some of those who refuse being encouraged to step down.
Prediction #2 (War on traditional media)
Critical journalism will become much more difficult and thus much more rare. Only “friendly” journalists will have access to press conferences. Critical news articles will be routinely answered with libel suits to the point where a newspaper will think twice about breaking a scandal. If sensitive (or embarrassing) material gets published, this will be regarded as treason. Some journalists will go to jail. Many will quit their jobs. Newspapers, who are weakened already due to Internet competition, won’t be able to put up a defense. Look out for: New laws that will force traditional newspapers, such as WaPo, NYT and others to either go bankrupt or be reduced to a mere shadaw of their former selves.
Prediction #3 (Taking control of new media)
“Cyberbullying” will become a big topic. Anonymous internet forums will be banned. Posters will be required either to sign with their real names, or possibly internet forums will be required to keep track of and verify the identity of posters. Say goodbye to MeFi as we know it. Facebook, Twitter etc. will resist this, but will be subject to extreme regulations, or ultimately just nationalized. The reasoning will be that they are too important infrastructure to be left in private hands. Same for physical infrastructure. Maybe the NSA will take care of all this, maybe some other, new government agency. Look out for: Some sort of internet ID or passport required to have access to certain parts of the net.
Prediction #4 (Squashing of protest)
Protests and demonstrations against the new policies will be treated as insurgencies. Waving protest signs or yelling at the president will be treated as terrorism or attempted murder. Internet posts that are critical of the president and his politics will be regarded as physical threats and will result in visits from the secret service (which will triple in size within the first six months) or possibly some other, new government agency. There will be a lot of self-censoring and a lot of distrust towards strangers. There will be violent reactions, in form of violent protests, which will just pave the way for more restrictive laws and treating the protestors as "terrorists". Look out for: Discussion whether citizens critical of the government should be allowed to own guns.
Prediction #5 (Foreign politics)
In the first year or two, there will be surprisingly little tension with foreign nations. Europe will decry the erosion of civil liberties, but will be told harshly to mind its own business (under the applause of Russia and China). Relations with Russia will become friendly to the point that there is talk of joint military operations in order to bring peace to the Middle East. There will be technological cooperation with China in such fields as controlling and monitoring internet traffic. There will be a few token demands for better trade conditions with China and there will be some sort of trade deal that will be hailed as a huge victory for the US. In return, China is allowed to gain control over a few more islands in the Pacific (hopefully not the Philippines, though), to which the US will acquiesce since “they are not of primary strategic importance to us.” All this will last until the first phase of power consolidation (see above) is finished. After that, all bets are off. Look out for: The EU not knowing how to react to US citizens applying for political asylum.
posted by sour cream at 2:17 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Anonymous internet forums will be banned.
Question: how will the U.S. ban anonymous internet forums ?
posted by Pendragon at 2:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Question: how will the U.S. ban anonymous internet forums ?
posted by Pendragon at 2:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Brexit referendum had a high turnout at 72%. Leave voters had lower incomes than remain voters. Whether they were misled or not, the Brexit vote was genuinely about the mobilization of working class voters.
I think it's important to note there was racism and xenophobia in Brexit, too. The thing about these forms of retrograde nationalism is that they're economic and racist, and usually authoritarian and paternalistic. These things are connected in a complex discourse in politics and culture. Fascism has a populist appeal to the middle class, the petty bourgeois in particular, based around a perceived if not actual decrease in status and privilege.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:36 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think it's important to note there was racism and xenophobia in Brexit, too. The thing about these forms of retrograde nationalism is that they're economic and racist, and usually authoritarian and paternalistic. These things are connected in a complex discourse in politics and culture. Fascism has a populist appeal to the middle class, the petty bourgeois in particular, based around a perceived if not actual decrease in status and privilege.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:36 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Question: how will the U.S. ban anonymous internet forums ?
Step 1: Fining those responsible (in the case of MeFi, that would be Matt Haughey).
Step 2: Shutting down the site entirely.
If that turns out to be difficult, turn to China for technical assistance. Looks like they know how to do it...
posted by sour cream at 2:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Step 1: Fining those responsible (in the case of MeFi, that would be Matt Haughey).
Step 2: Shutting down the site entirely.
If that turns out to be difficult, turn to China for technical assistance. Looks like they know how to do it...
posted by sour cream at 2:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
New Zealand Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei writes about her party's refusal to support a Parliamentary motion congratulating Trump
Go the Greens. Good to see our cuzzies across the Tasman keeping up the good fight.
Over here, the New South Wales parliament’s upper house unanimously passed the Greens' motion condemning Donald Trump for his misogynistic, hateful comments which clearly described sexual assault and agreed that he is a revolting slug unfit for public office:
Text of the motion passed by the NSW upper house:
That this House:
a) condemns the misogynistic, hateful comments made by the Republican candidate for President of the United States of America, Mr Donald Trump, about women and minorities, including the remarks revealed over the weekend that clearly describe sexual assault;
b) reflects on the divisive, destructive impact that hate speech from political candidates and members of elected office has on our community; and
c) agrees with those who have described Mr Trump as “a revolting slug” unfit for public office.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 AM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
Go the Greens. Good to see our cuzzies across the Tasman keeping up the good fight.
Over here, the New South Wales parliament’s upper house unanimously passed the Greens' motion condemning Donald Trump for his misogynistic, hateful comments which clearly described sexual assault and agreed that he is a revolting slug unfit for public office:
Text of the motion passed by the NSW upper house:
That this House:
a) condemns the misogynistic, hateful comments made by the Republican candidate for President of the United States of America, Mr Donald Trump, about women and minorities, including the remarks revealed over the weekend that clearly describe sexual assault;
b) reflects on the divisive, destructive impact that hate speech from political candidates and members of elected office has on our community; and
c) agrees with those who have described Mr Trump as “a revolting slug” unfit for public office.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 AM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
Surely they have no authority over anonymous internet forums that are not hosted on US soil and not under the responsibility of any US citizens. So some forums would have to be moved. Not all that difficult.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:43 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:43 AM on November 12, 2016
The DNC this year was one of the most positive, uplifting and message driven conventions I've ever seen. If you watched that and didn't feel inspired and didn't catch the main policies and themes of Clinton, well...
And the RNC was such an absolute shit show. Man, I've lost things before, debate competitions, cases I was litigating, but I've never had any experience where I am like *I was beaten by a joke of a human being for evil reasons*. Oh except for this sexual assault thing which I'm hesitant to bring up because, you know, the feeling that people just don't care and want you to shut up about it
posted by angrycat at 2:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [37 favorites]
And the RNC was such an absolute shit show. Man, I've lost things before, debate competitions, cases I was litigating, but I've never had any experience where I am like *I was beaten by a joke of a human being for evil reasons*. Oh except for this sexual assault thing which I'm hesitant to bring up because, you know, the feeling that people just don't care and want you to shut up about it
posted by angrycat at 2:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [37 favorites]
And here are a few whackier predictions:
Whacky Prediction #1: The first female US president is less than 10 years away, but her first name will be Ivanka.
Whacky Prediction #2: After declaring Obama's presidency to be illegitimate (after all he wasn't borne in the US) and erasing his legacy, Trump will be declared "President #44".
Whacky Prediction #3: Nevertheless, Trump will leave the ACA largely intact with some modifications. This will allow him to blame everything that goes wrong with it on Obama, while taking credit for "fixing health." Actually, I think this one is not so whacky.
Whacky Prediction #4: There will be a scandal surrounding a former beauty contestant who will go public announcing that she ended an affair with Trump because of his problems "down there". The Trump administration will go after her and here family with a vengeance, not so much because of the alleged affair, which isn't denied, but because of the questioning of his virility. There will be assurances that there are absolutely no problems "down there" and the floozy and her family will be forced to leave the country.
Whacky Prediction #5: You will not find this post anywhere on the Internet in 2020.
posted by sour cream at 2:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Whacky Prediction #1: The first female US president is less than 10 years away, but her first name will be Ivanka.
Whacky Prediction #2: After declaring Obama's presidency to be illegitimate (after all he wasn't borne in the US) and erasing his legacy, Trump will be declared "President #44".
Whacky Prediction #3: Nevertheless, Trump will leave the ACA largely intact with some modifications. This will allow him to blame everything that goes wrong with it on Obama, while taking credit for "fixing health." Actually, I think this one is not so whacky.
Whacky Prediction #4: There will be a scandal surrounding a former beauty contestant who will go public announcing that she ended an affair with Trump because of his problems "down there". The Trump administration will go after her and here family with a vengeance, not so much because of the alleged affair, which isn't denied, but because of the questioning of his virility. There will be assurances that there are absolutely no problems "down there" and the floozy and her family will be forced to leave the country.
Whacky Prediction #5: You will not find this post anywhere on the Internet in 2020.
posted by sour cream at 2:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Surely they have no authority over anonymous internet forums that are not hosted on US soil and not under the responsibility of any US citizens. So some forums would have to be moved. Not all that difficult.
Ever heard of the great firewall surrounding China? So there are technical means to prevent that. Don't press me for technical details, but once you have control over the infrastructure, wouldn't it be possible to ban access to a domain such as "www.metafilter.com" from the US?
I think that's exactly what the Chinese do with regard to Google for example.
Of course, you can always start a new site, but at least this would allow the government to keep all opposition forums small.
And besides, I understand that MeFi provides the livelihood for a few people. Would they be able to operate the site from overseas? Or would it be a hassle to the extent that they simply give up at some point?
posted by sour cream at 2:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ever heard of the great firewall surrounding China? So there are technical means to prevent that. Don't press me for technical details, but once you have control over the infrastructure, wouldn't it be possible to ban access to a domain such as "www.metafilter.com" from the US?
I think that's exactly what the Chinese do with regard to Google for example.
Of course, you can always start a new site, but at least this would allow the government to keep all opposition forums small.
And besides, I understand that MeFi provides the livelihood for a few people. Would they be able to operate the site from overseas? Or would it be a hassle to the extent that they simply give up at some point?
posted by sour cream at 2:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mind you, I'm not saying that trying to ban anonymous forums will be entirely successful. There are also holes in the great firewall around China. But it's still a big nuisance and IMO does have an effect on opinion building there.
Maybe only the major sites will be policed. Maybe MeFi will manage to fly under the radar.
But authoritarian regimes tend to make efforts to control public opinion, including what's going on on the Internet. Just look at Russia.
And besides, it's not like any of this is a secret. Trump has already formulated a policy of Internet censorship, or "closing up the Internet" as he called it, "with the help of Bill Gates." He may have used technically inaccurate terms, for which he was widely ridiculed, but he's been pretty clear about his intentions.
Don't make the mistake of not listening to the authoritarian president. He means exactly what he says.
posted by sour cream at 3:16 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Maybe only the major sites will be policed. Maybe MeFi will manage to fly under the radar.
But authoritarian regimes tend to make efforts to control public opinion, including what's going on on the Internet. Just look at Russia.
And besides, it's not like any of this is a secret. Trump has already formulated a policy of Internet censorship, or "closing up the Internet" as he called it, "with the help of Bill Gates." He may have used technically inaccurate terms, for which he was widely ridiculed, but he's been pretty clear about his intentions.
Don't make the mistake of not listening to the authoritarian president. He means exactly what he says.
posted by sour cream at 3:16 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sorry, I was speaking in general terms. Not specifically about Metafilter.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:41 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:41 AM on November 12, 2016
Trump isn't going to shut down media that helped put him in power. He owes too much to wikileaks and alt right trolls.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
[satire]
Trump Tweets Nuclear Codes in 3 a.m. Twitter War with Jordanian Troll
[satire]
Two [satire] warnings because, Trump.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:13 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump Tweets Nuclear Codes in 3 a.m. Twitter War with Jordanian Troll
[satire]
Two [satire] warnings because, Trump.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:13 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump isn't going to shut down media that helped put him in power. He owes too much to wikileaks and alt right trolls.
We already know that he has no interest in paying his debts.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:16 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
We already know that he has no interest in paying his debts.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:16 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
We already know that he has no interest in paying his debts.
I wasn't talking about debts. I'm talking about keeping political tools that benefit him. Note that telecom is already tracking and reporting metadata to the government, rationalized because ISIS ISIS ISIS. But doing more than a handwave at shutting down Milo and his ilk? Probably not going to happen.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:33 AM on November 12, 2016
I wasn't talking about debts. I'm talking about keeping political tools that benefit him. Note that telecom is already tracking and reporting metadata to the government, rationalized because ISIS ISIS ISIS. But doing more than a handwave at shutting down Milo and his ilk? Probably not going to happen.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:33 AM on November 12, 2016
Or to put it another way, astroturfing social media is one of the ways that Republicans win elections, and a way that's proven to be highly effective.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
[satire]
Trump Tweets Nuclear Codes in 3 a.m. Twitter War with Jordanian Troll
[satire]
Now that the Wrath of the Whatever has been invoked and seems to be settled in for a stay, it's probably not even worth the effort to TTTCS, is it?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:11 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump Tweets Nuclear Codes in 3 a.m. Twitter War with Jordanian Troll
[satire]
Now that the Wrath of the Whatever has been invoked and seems to be settled in for a stay, it's probably not even worth the effort to TTTCS, is it?
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:11 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wasn't talking about debts. I'm talking about keeping political tools that benefit him.
Having good contractors and subcontractors you can call on for jobs over and over again benefits a developer. Never stopped him from fucking them over in the past. As soon as he does one thing the alt-right disapproves of and they show their loyalty to anything that is not Trump, he'll fuck them over.
posted by Etrigan at 5:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Having good contractors and subcontractors you can call on for jobs over and over again benefits a developer. Never stopped him from fucking them over in the past. As soon as he does one thing the alt-right disapproves of and they show their loyalty to anything that is not Trump, he'll fuck them over.
posted by Etrigan at 5:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Whacky Prediction #6: All citizens required to sign a Trump Org NDA.
posted by localhuman at 5:33 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by localhuman at 5:33 AM on November 12, 2016
"Hurrah for women's lib, eh?"
"The lib?" Impatiently she leans forward and tugs the serape straight. "Oh, that's doomed."
The apocalyptic word jars my attention.
"What do you mean, doomed?"
She glances at me as if I weren't hanging straight either and says vaguely, "Oh ..."
"Come on, why doomed? Didn't they get that equal rights bill?"
Long hesitation. When she speaks again her voice is different. "Women have no rights, Don, except what men allow us. Men are more aggressive and powerful, and they run the world. When the next real crisis upsets them, our so-called rights will vanish like that smoke. We'll be back where we always were: property. And whatever has gone wrong will be blamed on our freedom, like the fall of Rome was. You'll see."
Now all this is delivered in a gray tone of total conviction. The last time I heard that tone, the speaker was explaining why he had to keep his file drawers full of dead pigeons.
"Oh, come on. You and your friends are the backbone of the system; if you quit, the country would come to a screeching halt before lunch."
No answering smile.
"That's fantasy." Her voice is still quiet. "Women don't work that way. We're a toothless world." She looks around as if she wanted to stop talking. "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world machine."
That's James Tiptree, "The Women Men Don't See". Now, that is not a story that is good on race, but it gets at something that I've already been seeing on the internet - white people and men generally and straight people generally are willing enough to let POC and women generally and queers generally do our little thing, say our little piece, as long as it benefits them in some way.
It was all right for a woman to run for President when it looked like she'd win, but it will be a long day in the morning before Democratic men let a woman get that far again - they'll point at Hillary and shut that down. This election will prove to be a huge blow to the status of women within the Democratic party, mark my words.
And the same thing will happen with any minority within the Democratic party and society as a whole - men and straight people and white people are already working to "this is not so bad" and "actually it was NAFTA" this election, and they will carry right on doing it, because they know that if you're a straight white man you can make your peace with racists and queer-haters and woman-haters. They will absolutely throw us under the bus as fast as ever they can, because they never really cared about us in the first place. They never cared about our rights; they were willing to let us have a little something if it didn't get in their way, that's all.
And again, mark this down: there will be a serious attempt in the next ten years to get rid of women's franchise in this country, and many, many men will go right along with it because they didn't really want us to vote in the first place. All those maps about how the country would look if only women voted? Those are our death-knell, because they clearly show how much better it would be if women didn't vote - why fund state services when you can force women to provide them for free on top of working for money? Why pay for elder care or childcare or healthcare when you can grind all those things out of women?
Many people who think now that they would stand up against that will not. They will be, at best, too afraid. At worst, it will be too convenient to go along with the new power structure.
Every since I first read "The Women Men Don't See", I've been trying to ignore it and argue it down in my head because it had the terrible ring of truth. But now its day has come.
We had a nice time for most of my life, I guess.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [59 favorites]
"The lib?" Impatiently she leans forward and tugs the serape straight. "Oh, that's doomed."
The apocalyptic word jars my attention.
"What do you mean, doomed?"
She glances at me as if I weren't hanging straight either and says vaguely, "Oh ..."
"Come on, why doomed? Didn't they get that equal rights bill?"
Long hesitation. When she speaks again her voice is different. "Women have no rights, Don, except what men allow us. Men are more aggressive and powerful, and they run the world. When the next real crisis upsets them, our so-called rights will vanish like that smoke. We'll be back where we always were: property. And whatever has gone wrong will be blamed on our freedom, like the fall of Rome was. You'll see."
Now all this is delivered in a gray tone of total conviction. The last time I heard that tone, the speaker was explaining why he had to keep his file drawers full of dead pigeons.
"Oh, come on. You and your friends are the backbone of the system; if you quit, the country would come to a screeching halt before lunch."
No answering smile.
"That's fantasy." Her voice is still quiet. "Women don't work that way. We're a toothless world." She looks around as if she wanted to stop talking. "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world machine."
That's James Tiptree, "The Women Men Don't See". Now, that is not a story that is good on race, but it gets at something that I've already been seeing on the internet - white people and men generally and straight people generally are willing enough to let POC and women generally and queers generally do our little thing, say our little piece, as long as it benefits them in some way.
It was all right for a woman to run for President when it looked like she'd win, but it will be a long day in the morning before Democratic men let a woman get that far again - they'll point at Hillary and shut that down. This election will prove to be a huge blow to the status of women within the Democratic party, mark my words.
And the same thing will happen with any minority within the Democratic party and society as a whole - men and straight people and white people are already working to "this is not so bad" and "actually it was NAFTA" this election, and they will carry right on doing it, because they know that if you're a straight white man you can make your peace with racists and queer-haters and woman-haters. They will absolutely throw us under the bus as fast as ever they can, because they never really cared about us in the first place. They never cared about our rights; they were willing to let us have a little something if it didn't get in their way, that's all.
And again, mark this down: there will be a serious attempt in the next ten years to get rid of women's franchise in this country, and many, many men will go right along with it because they didn't really want us to vote in the first place. All those maps about how the country would look if only women voted? Those are our death-knell, because they clearly show how much better it would be if women didn't vote - why fund state services when you can force women to provide them for free on top of working for money? Why pay for elder care or childcare or healthcare when you can grind all those things out of women?
Many people who think now that they would stand up against that will not. They will be, at best, too afraid. At worst, it will be too convenient to go along with the new power structure.
Every since I first read "The Women Men Don't See", I've been trying to ignore it and argue it down in my head because it had the terrible ring of truth. But now its day has come.
We had a nice time for most of my life, I guess.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [59 favorites]
The decline in the amount of email I'm getting is sort of freaking me out. But I did get this gem from peaceteam.net (PEN? I'm not sure) which I until now haven't paid much attention to;
(It's long and rambling so here's the highlights)
Obamacare is a loser, it's always been a loser, and it's always going
to be a loser...
If the Democrats, clinging to some delusional attachment to Obama's
so-called legacy, try to block repeal, exactly the same dynamic that
cost them Congress and the White House in the first place will
proceed even further...
The plain, hard fact is that by the time Trump gets done Obama will
have NO legacy to brag about, other the murder of Osama bin Laden...
..Republicans vowed en masse to make him a failed president. And tragically, so tragically,
President Obama helped them do it. He could have passed anything he
wanted to in 2009. He had a party super-majority in the Senate and
historic margins in the House. But he elected to try to con his base
instead, this was the change you believed in he told us, and so we
arrive at the sad present...
By the way, our Bernie Forever caps make great holiday gifts...
Yeah Bro, we're not friends. Unsubscribe.
posted by bongo_x at 5:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
(It's long and rambling so here's the highlights)
Obamacare is a loser, it's always been a loser, and it's always going
to be a loser...
If the Democrats, clinging to some delusional attachment to Obama's
so-called legacy, try to block repeal, exactly the same dynamic that
cost them Congress and the White House in the first place will
proceed even further...
The plain, hard fact is that by the time Trump gets done Obama will
have NO legacy to brag about, other the murder of Osama bin Laden...
..Republicans vowed en masse to make him a failed president. And tragically, so tragically,
President Obama helped them do it. He could have passed anything he
wanted to in 2009. He had a party super-majority in the Senate and
historic margins in the House. But he elected to try to con his base
instead, this was the change you believed in he told us, and so we
arrive at the sad present...
By the way, our Bernie Forever caps make great holiday gifts...
Yeah Bro, we're not friends. Unsubscribe.
posted by bongo_x at 5:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Chris Hayes: Here's a fun game!
Re-run the election switching just one thing: the timing of the Access Hollywood tape and the Comey letter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Re-run the election switching just one thing: the timing of the Access Hollywood tape and the Comey letter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Young people gave Hillary 1,200 roses.
Hillary came and left one for each of her campaign's staff. "Think of the hope it represents". (video)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
Hillary came and left one for each of her campaign's staff. "Think of the hope it represents". (video)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
The thing that gives me hope that it won't be quite as awful as it could be; their sheer incompetence.
@amyfiscus:
Unprepared? Jared Kushner asked on his West Wing tour how many staffers would remain for the next administration http://lat.ms/2eKTR6f
posted by chris24 at 6:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
@amyfiscus:
Unprepared? Jared Kushner asked on his West Wing tour how many staffers would remain for the next administration http://lat.ms/2eKTR6f
posted by chris24 at 6:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I still just can't get over how wrong the polls were.
I haven't read every comment on these posts, because this week has been super-busy in meatspace, but how does this even work? This isn't Brexit, where the polls were actually pointing to Leave, but looking at all the polls, Clinton consistently polled above Trump, especially at the end.
Was it voter disenfranchisement or fraud? I was a poll watcher on Tuesday, and it was the first time for me so maybe the same shenanigans happen in every election, but three things really stuck out to me:
1. I was supposed to be able to see the empty box which the provisional and failsafe (ie all the paper) ballots went into. When I asked the poll clerk to show me that the box was empty, she would not. It was closed with zip ties and she told me she would break the seal and show me it was empty when the first provisional ballot was cast. Which never happened because:
2. The poll clerk never (or, never seriously) offered a provisional ballot to anyone. There were many people who were turned away because they were not on the rolls. For most of these, it wasn't clear what the issue was, though some of them were pretty sketchy. For two, they had voter registration cards for our county IN HAND, which means that they should have been offered provisional ballots. They weren't, until I protested, and then the poll clerk offered provisional ballots but made it sound like they'd have to go to court if they took that option, which was really misleading. I got both those people over to the Board of Elections and they were able to vote, but for one, it was really close and she just wanted to give up. And the line wasn't even long at my polling place; the lines elsewhere in my county were three hours long. Imagine being told you couldn't vote after waiting three hours.
3. I was supposed to see the tapes run on the machines which show no votes. I was not able to see this, because when I got there the tapes were already run. So I can't say for sure that there were no votes on the machines when the polls opened.
Now, I can't say for sure that any of this was intentional suppression or fraud or whatever. It may be that I just had a lazy poll clerk. But things definitely were not clear-cut and I can see how fraud could easily have been introduced into the system, maybe not in an organized fashion, but certainly motivated poll clerks have the power to manipulate the system.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
I haven't read every comment on these posts, because this week has been super-busy in meatspace, but how does this even work? This isn't Brexit, where the polls were actually pointing to Leave, but looking at all the polls, Clinton consistently polled above Trump, especially at the end.
Was it voter disenfranchisement or fraud? I was a poll watcher on Tuesday, and it was the first time for me so maybe the same shenanigans happen in every election, but three things really stuck out to me:
1. I was supposed to be able to see the empty box which the provisional and failsafe (ie all the paper) ballots went into. When I asked the poll clerk to show me that the box was empty, she would not. It was closed with zip ties and she told me she would break the seal and show me it was empty when the first provisional ballot was cast. Which never happened because:
2. The poll clerk never (or, never seriously) offered a provisional ballot to anyone. There were many people who were turned away because they were not on the rolls. For most of these, it wasn't clear what the issue was, though some of them were pretty sketchy. For two, they had voter registration cards for our county IN HAND, which means that they should have been offered provisional ballots. They weren't, until I protested, and then the poll clerk offered provisional ballots but made it sound like they'd have to go to court if they took that option, which was really misleading. I got both those people over to the Board of Elections and they were able to vote, but for one, it was really close and she just wanted to give up. And the line wasn't even long at my polling place; the lines elsewhere in my county were three hours long. Imagine being told you couldn't vote after waiting three hours.
3. I was supposed to see the tapes run on the machines which show no votes. I was not able to see this, because when I got there the tapes were already run. So I can't say for sure that there were no votes on the machines when the polls opened.
Now, I can't say for sure that any of this was intentional suppression or fraud or whatever. It may be that I just had a lazy poll clerk. But things definitely were not clear-cut and I can see how fraud could easily have been introduced into the system, maybe not in an organized fashion, but certainly motivated poll clerks have the power to manipulate the system.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
Was it voter disenfranchisement or fraud?
whynotboth.gif
posted by entropicamericana at 6:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
whynotboth.gif
posted by entropicamericana at 6:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, and here's the other thing: all of the poll workers were old, retired white people. Which makes sense, they have time to do such things, but also means they're more likely to be R-leaning. And if it's that way everywhere (is it? I don't know) then any rogue poll clerk shenanigans would also be more likely to be toward the R candidate.
I dunno, maybe I'm just grabbing at straws because I still can't accept the dark timeline I woke up in on Wednesday morning. But if it turns out there WERE shenanigans I would not be surprised at all.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:28 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I dunno, maybe I'm just grabbing at straws because I still can't accept the dark timeline I woke up in on Wednesday morning. But if it turns out there WERE shenanigans I would not be surprised at all.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:28 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
She did not, but that's a good way to remind me that she tried to rig the 2008 primary in her favor.
Hence the "arguable". And rigged how?
posted by chris24 at 6:35 AM on November 12, 2016
Hence the "arguable". And rigged how?
posted by chris24 at 6:35 AM on November 12, 2016
The thing that gives me hope that it won't be quite as awful as it could be; their sheer incompetence.
I don't know. If these last few days are any indication of how the transition and the new Administration are going to run, we're looking at a titanic struggle of lawful evil vs. chaotic stupid.
Not sure which is worse.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't know. If these last few days are any indication of how the transition and the new Administration are going to run, we're looking at a titanic struggle of lawful evil vs. chaotic stupid.
Not sure which is worse.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
So it seems plausible to guess that Sanders would be in same range as Kerry and Clinton, which is only 6 or 7 points less than Obama on both measures;
Clinton was the overwhelming favorite of black voters and Kerry performed reasonably well with black voters. While Edwards won SC, NC, and lots of GA, Edwards won at normal boring levels.
but even if you think Sanders would do much worse than Kerry for some reason
The reason is that black voters had already overwhelmingly rejected Sanders. The majorities that Clinton won by in heavily-African-American areas were absolutely crushing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton was the overwhelming favorite of black voters and Kerry performed reasonably well with black voters. While Edwards won SC, NC, and lots of GA, Edwards won at normal boring levels.
but even if you think Sanders would do much worse than Kerry for some reason
The reason is that black voters had already overwhelmingly rejected Sanders. The majorities that Clinton won by in heavily-African-American areas were absolutely crushing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would love to get rid of the word "rigged." It's designed to rile people up without giving them any information. If you believe some unfair advantage was or will be taken, DESCRIBE THE ACTUAL MECHANISM you're referring to.
posted by neroli at 6:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by neroli at 6:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
We had a nice time for most of my life, I guess
An era of social enlightenment is drawing to a close and I really hope people understand this sooner rather than later.
It's not the end of the world, it's more like the Weimar Republic falling and being replaced with something a little more deadly than Reagan or Castro, certainly not as bad as the Third Reich. but definitely the beginning of a darker age.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:50 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
An era of social enlightenment is drawing to a close and I really hope people understand this sooner rather than later.
It's not the end of the world, it's more like the Weimar Republic falling and being replaced with something a little more deadly than Reagan or Castro, certainly not as bad as the Third Reich. but definitely the beginning of a darker age.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:50 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sanders was overwhelmingly rejected by a core element of the base.
It's incredibly aggravating to hear liberals go well Black people would just vote for the Democrat either way. It's taking an entire community for granted and saying to them nah your opinions and preferences are secondary to the wants and needs if white liberals.
Fuck that
posted by vuron at 6:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [39 favorites]
It's incredibly aggravating to hear liberals go well Black people would just vote for the Democrat either way. It's taking an entire community for granted and saying to them nah your opinions and preferences are secondary to the wants and needs if white liberals.
Fuck that
posted by vuron at 6:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [39 favorites]
Bernie fucked up his campaign, counter factual hand wringing will never change that fact.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:53 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:53 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I haven't read every comment on these posts, because this week has been super-busy in meatspace, but how does this even work? This isn't Brexit, where the polls were actually pointing to Leave, but looking at all the polls, Clinton consistently polled above Trump, especially at the end.
And by the time all votes are counted -- CA/WA/OR still coming in because slooooooow -- the national polls will be only a little bit wrong and probably consistently within their margin of error.
I'm not a behaviorist or survey expert, but there were two things that public polling has always done that are just not very smart.
One is the focus on national polling, which won't tell you a whole lot about who's going to win in a non-blowout year. But before 2000, most presidential elections were relative blowouts, so this wasn't a big deal. Since then, most elections have been pretty close -- 2000 obviously, 2004, 2012, and now 2016. Going forward, pollsters would be smart to *either* do a lot more state polling or to use newer techniques like MRP to back state-level estimates out of their national polls.
The second is the whole idea of the likely-voter poll. This sort of made sense back when computers were giant expensive things; you ask people a few questions and then only actually poll the ones that answer n of N questions "correctly." Effectively, running a likely voter poll is the same as saying that someone who answered one too many questions "wrong" has a zero percent chance of turnout while someone who answered that extra question "right" has a 100\% chance of turnout. I'm not sure there would ever be a way to know this, except for registered-voter polls that also included likely-voter results within them, but I would not be surprised if enough rural-ish/exurban white Trump voters missed the likely voter screens.
But computers are dirt cheap now, so it's utterly trivial to just estimate a probability of turnout for every respondent and weight them accordingly. These will still be wrong estimates, because you won't have a good turnout model for that year until after the election is over, but at least your election prediction will predict that 40\% of people with an estimated likelihood of turning out of 40\% will vote, instead of the likely-voter approach which says that zero percent of 40-percent-chance voters will turn out.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
And by the time all votes are counted -- CA/WA/OR still coming in because slooooooow -- the national polls will be only a little bit wrong and probably consistently within their margin of error.
I'm not a behaviorist or survey expert, but there were two things that public polling has always done that are just not very smart.
One is the focus on national polling, which won't tell you a whole lot about who's going to win in a non-blowout year. But before 2000, most presidential elections were relative blowouts, so this wasn't a big deal. Since then, most elections have been pretty close -- 2000 obviously, 2004, 2012, and now 2016. Going forward, pollsters would be smart to *either* do a lot more state polling or to use newer techniques like MRP to back state-level estimates out of their national polls.
The second is the whole idea of the likely-voter poll. This sort of made sense back when computers were giant expensive things; you ask people a few questions and then only actually poll the ones that answer n of N questions "correctly." Effectively, running a likely voter poll is the same as saying that someone who answered one too many questions "wrong" has a zero percent chance of turnout while someone who answered that extra question "right" has a 100\% chance of turnout. I'm not sure there would ever be a way to know this, except for registered-voter polls that also included likely-voter results within them, but I would not be surprised if enough rural-ish/exurban white Trump voters missed the likely voter screens.
But computers are dirt cheap now, so it's utterly trivial to just estimate a probability of turnout for every respondent and weight them accordingly. These will still be wrong estimates, because you won't have a good turnout model for that year until after the election is over, but at least your election prediction will predict that 40\% of people with an estimated likelihood of turning out of 40\% will vote, instead of the likely-voter approach which says that zero percent of 40-percent-chance voters will turn out.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's incredibly aggravating to hear liberals go well Black people would just vote for the Democrat either way. It's taking an entire community for granted and saying to them nah your opinions and preferences are secondary to the wants and needs if white liberals.
It's especially infuriating to hear that from people who object to being told that their third party votes are taking votes away from the Democrats.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's especially infuriating to hear that from people who object to being told that their third party votes are taking votes away from the Democrats.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I still just can't get over how wrong the polls were.
the polls were no more wrong than normal. honestly. the error in the polls was pretty much typical. that is why the site 538, which takes these things into account, had around a 1 in 3 chance of trump winning.
the problem was not the polls. the problem was people's interpretation and expectations, driven by echo-chamber media / social apps.
if you want you can listen to this podcast and hear, in long, tedious detail, the people at 538 complaining about this.
posted by andrewcooke at 7:00 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
the polls were no more wrong than normal. honestly. the error in the polls was pretty much typical. that is why the site 538, which takes these things into account, had around a 1 in 3 chance of trump winning.
the problem was not the polls. the problem was people's interpretation and expectations, driven by echo-chamber media / social apps.
if you want you can listen to this podcast and hear, in long, tedious detail, the people at 538 complaining about this.
posted by andrewcooke at 7:00 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, we have had literally thousands of words, full novels worth, of fighting about Sanders / Clinton. Please don't start this all over again. Also not sure we need to fight about the 2008 Dem primary either.
posted by taz (staff) at 7:01 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 7:01 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
The lines never even touch in Huffpollster. And PEC had a Clinton win at like 99% probability, based on polls. Were the polls really no wronger than normal?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:02 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:02 AM on November 12, 2016
Japan. Developing. Nuclear Weapons. What.
As MeFi's Own Maciej Ceglowski pointed out, they will be tiny, beautifully engineered and have some kind of anime mascot
posted by acb at 7:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
As MeFi's Own Maciej Ceglowski pointed out, they will be tiny, beautifully engineered and have some kind of anime mascot
posted by acb at 7:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The other thing I feel like I'm seeing in white-male dominated left spaces on the internet is "we need to reach out to [racist] white voters to show them that their actual problem is class". No mention of what is actually going to happen to women and LGBTQ people and people of color in coming years. None of us count as "working class", of course.
And I think this is because white male leftists are eager to go back to being de facto sexist, racist and homophobic. It was never very fun for them to have to mix up "fix my problems with a revolution where I'm the hero" with "er, but, sometimes I am actually the villain" and now they can ditch that for good.
Here's another thing to expect - a realignment of the left. White men and white-male-dominated formations will make their peace with rural white supremacists. They'll trot out something about how those people can be won away from their white supremacy if enough "patient" white men "talk to them".
Expect cultural conservatism to return to the left, and expect it to mark a polarization. I bet we'll see a turn - by straight white leftists, mostly but not exclusively men - to a "plain style" in dress and affect and away from anything artistic, flamboyant or visibly queer because that doesn't get over with the suburbs and the countryside. Expect more vilification of women, POC and queer people with our "boutique issues".
There will still be an "other left", of course, the rest of us. But the "real left" will ally with the forces of reaction against us.
They are already doing it, softly. I don't think it's in the spirit of metafilter to name names, but every white-male dominated left space I read regularly, from the small blog to the big blog to the Popular Left website, has started to make this turn. Softly now, strongly later, once they've tested the waters a bit.
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites, as they simultaneously stop talking about the consequences of the election for POC, women and queers. That's what makes it so clear to me - they aren't even trying to square the circle. They're just going to stop talking about us, stop pretending that we are important.
People I really respected. People whose blogs I linked all the time. They...just don't really care about anyone who isn't a white straight man or in the pocket of white straight men.
All these things I have dreaded for years are coming true and I don't even know how to handle it.
posted by Frowner at 7:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [87 favorites]
And I think this is because white male leftists are eager to go back to being de facto sexist, racist and homophobic. It was never very fun for them to have to mix up "fix my problems with a revolution where I'm the hero" with "er, but, sometimes I am actually the villain" and now they can ditch that for good.
Here's another thing to expect - a realignment of the left. White men and white-male-dominated formations will make their peace with rural white supremacists. They'll trot out something about how those people can be won away from their white supremacy if enough "patient" white men "talk to them".
Expect cultural conservatism to return to the left, and expect it to mark a polarization. I bet we'll see a turn - by straight white leftists, mostly but not exclusively men - to a "plain style" in dress and affect and away from anything artistic, flamboyant or visibly queer because that doesn't get over with the suburbs and the countryside. Expect more vilification of women, POC and queer people with our "boutique issues".
There will still be an "other left", of course, the rest of us. But the "real left" will ally with the forces of reaction against us.
They are already doing it, softly. I don't think it's in the spirit of metafilter to name names, but every white-male dominated left space I read regularly, from the small blog to the big blog to the Popular Left website, has started to make this turn. Softly now, strongly later, once they've tested the waters a bit.
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites, as they simultaneously stop talking about the consequences of the election for POC, women and queers. That's what makes it so clear to me - they aren't even trying to square the circle. They're just going to stop talking about us, stop pretending that we are important.
People I really respected. People whose blogs I linked all the time. They...just don't really care about anyone who isn't a white straight man or in the pocket of white straight men.
All these things I have dreaded for years are coming true and I don't even know how to handle it.
posted by Frowner at 7:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [87 favorites]
While I agree that the word 'rigged' can probably be taken out and shot at this point, the insight it's pointing to (though usually not in a helpful way) needs to be retained and understood.
Sanders was overwhelmingly rejected by a core element of the base.
It's incredibly aggravating to hear liberals go well Black people would just vote for the Democrat either way. It's taking an entire community for granted and saying to them nah your opinions and preferences are secondary to the wants and needs if white liberals.
Fuck that
This is very, very anecdotal and provisional; but I think the 'enthusiasm gap' we're seeing among the Latinx and black communities is a 'pox on both their houses' statement -- 'both their houses' meaning both the BernieBros, against whom they largely voted in the primaries, and the Democratic Establishment, for whom they do not appear to have turned out quite as much as they did in 2012 and 2008 for Obama.
The system is rigged and undemocratic. The Electoral College and the Senate are the most obviously rigged institutions, but the House isn't far behind and the primary process in both parties is also incredibly arcane, susceptible to scale-thumbing by DNC/RNC mandarins and the vagaries of the 'media narrative'. As I said repeatedly during the primaries, the Sanders-Clinton 2016 dynamic echoes the Clinton-Obama 2008 dynamic; it is a process that structurally creates acrimony and division when it should be trying to identify the best candidate in a transparent way that builds a winning coalition for the general. It's broken and both (all?) wings of the Democratic Party need to work together to fix it. Only then can we address the bigger problem of the democratic deficit in the country at large.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Sanders was overwhelmingly rejected by a core element of the base.
It's incredibly aggravating to hear liberals go well Black people would just vote for the Democrat either way. It's taking an entire community for granted and saying to them nah your opinions and preferences are secondary to the wants and needs if white liberals.
Fuck that
This is very, very anecdotal and provisional; but I think the 'enthusiasm gap' we're seeing among the Latinx and black communities is a 'pox on both their houses' statement -- 'both their houses' meaning both the BernieBros, against whom they largely voted in the primaries, and the Democratic Establishment, for whom they do not appear to have turned out quite as much as they did in 2012 and 2008 for Obama.
The system is rigged and undemocratic. The Electoral College and the Senate are the most obviously rigged institutions, but the House isn't far behind and the primary process in both parties is also incredibly arcane, susceptible to scale-thumbing by DNC/RNC mandarins and the vagaries of the 'media narrative'. As I said repeatedly during the primaries, the Sanders-Clinton 2016 dynamic echoes the Clinton-Obama 2008 dynamic; it is a process that structurally creates acrimony and division when it should be trying to identify the best candidate in a transparent way that builds a winning coalition for the general. It's broken and both (all?) wings of the Democratic Party need to work together to fix it. Only then can we address the bigger problem of the democratic deficit in the country at large.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
The lines never even touch in Huffpollster. And PEC had a Clinton win at like 99% probability, based on polls. Were the polls really no wronger than normal?
And she's going to win the popular vote by 1.5%, more than three elected presidents in the last 56 years. She just won them in the slightly wrong places.
posted by chris24 at 7:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
And she's going to win the popular vote by 1.5%, more than three elected presidents in the last 56 years. She just won them in the slightly wrong places.
posted by chris24 at 7:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites
As a white left man, I wholeheartedly agree with you and am pissed when I see my some of my cohorts waffling. We won the popular vote and barely lost the states that made the difference. There's a winning coalition out there without pandering to fucking racists. Change any one of a dozen little things this cycle and it was a winning coalition this year.
posted by chris24 at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2016 [37 favorites]
As a white left man, I wholeheartedly agree with you and am pissed when I see my some of my cohorts waffling. We won the popular vote and barely lost the states that made the difference. There's a winning coalition out there without pandering to fucking racists. Change any one of a dozen little things this cycle and it was a winning coalition this year.
posted by chris24 at 7:15 AM on November 12, 2016 [37 favorites]
I remember thinking, as I watched the state polls go up on 538, "That's a weird poll," "That's a weird poll" - notably a poll that gave Clinton a fair lead in MISSOURI of all places -- and 538 did put up an article explaining that the standard deviation of this year's polls was on the high side - the highest since 1988 - but the standard deviation was unusually small in 2008/2012. Just because the standard deviation was unusually high doesn't mean they were bad polls, I don't think, but - there weren't a lot of good state polls in November, and maybe there needed to be. (Would more polls have compensated for the unusually high standard deviation?) A sudden small swing away from Clinton in the wake of the Comey thing is one of the scenarios that seems plausible to me.
posted by Jeanne at 7:19 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Jeanne at 7:19 AM on November 12, 2016
And she's going to win the popular vote by 1.5%, more than three elected presidents in the last 56 years. She just won them in the slightly wrong places.
This is a separate problem, I think -- it's a failure of the technocracy. I don't think we can fault Clinton or the top decision-makers in her campaign for trusting their polling infrastructure and allocating resources accordingly; but we are going to need to look at what went wrong, narrowly wrong to be sure, but with terrible consequences. Democrats will need to look closely at the assumptions that went into the model. For that more, and more detailed, elections results will be needed; but it will also be important to have as many voices as possible in the room where the data is being analyzed, dissected and interpreted.
Data is not neutral. There's no such thing as objective translation of data to predictive modeling. The interpretation of data will always be subject to narrative. So we need as many perspectives as possible to look at what went wrong and to bring their story, and their community's history, to bear on the analysis. This is what 'we are stronger together' means.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:20 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is a separate problem, I think -- it's a failure of the technocracy. I don't think we can fault Clinton or the top decision-makers in her campaign for trusting their polling infrastructure and allocating resources accordingly; but we are going to need to look at what went wrong, narrowly wrong to be sure, but with terrible consequences. Democrats will need to look closely at the assumptions that went into the model. For that more, and more detailed, elections results will be needed; but it will also be important to have as many voices as possible in the room where the data is being analyzed, dissected and interpreted.
Data is not neutral. There's no such thing as objective translation of data to predictive modeling. The interpretation of data will always be subject to narrative. So we need as many perspectives as possible to look at what went wrong and to bring their story, and their community's history, to bear on the analysis. This is what 'we are stronger together' means.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:20 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
And she's going to win the popular vote by 1.5%, more than three elected presidents in the last 56 years. She just won them in the slightly wrong places.
Yeah, she's gotten more votes than another Presidential candidate in history, except for Obama. But a lot of that is due to population growth, just noting.
But yeah, she won the popular vote and got within about 1% in Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin and one or two other places. There's nothing majorly wrong with the Democratic platform, it's the communication of it that needs a shittown of work.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:21 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yeah, she's gotten more votes than another Presidential candidate in history, except for Obama. But a lot of that is due to population growth, just noting.
But yeah, she won the popular vote and got within about 1% in Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin and one or two other places. There's nothing majorly wrong with the Democratic platform, it's the communication of it that needs a shittown of work.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:21 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites
As a white left man, I wholeheartedly agree with you and am pissed when I see my some of my cohorts waffling. We won the popular vote and barely lost the states that made the difference. There's a winning coalition out there without pandering to fucking racists. Change any one of a dozen little things this cycle and it was a winning coalition this year.
Seconding this. As a white left man I think the key now is to engage minorities and increase voter turnout.
posted by angrybear at 7:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
As a white left man, I wholeheartedly agree with you and am pissed when I see my some of my cohorts waffling. We won the popular vote and barely lost the states that made the difference. There's a winning coalition out there without pandering to fucking racists. Change any one of a dozen little things this cycle and it was a winning coalition this year.
Seconding this. As a white left man I think the key now is to engage minorities and increase voter turnout.
posted by angrybear at 7:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites
This, this, 1000x this. Because class is the only real issue, obvs. I'm very close to retreating to women-only spaces online.
posted by frumiousb at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
This, this, 1000x this. Because class is the only real issue, obvs. I'm very close to retreating to women-only spaces online.
posted by frumiousb at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
WaPo: ‘Prediction professor’ who called Trump’s big win also made another forecast: Trump will be impeached
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:34 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:34 AM on November 12, 2016
Ethan Coen - NYT: 2016 Election Thank You Notes
"6. All our media friends. Thank you for preserving reportorial balance. You balanced Donald Trump’s proposal that the military execute the innocent families of terrorists, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced pot-stirring racist lies about President Obama’s birth, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced a religious test at our borders, torture by our military, jokes about assassination, unfounded claims of a rigged election, boasts about groping and paradoxical threats to sue anyone who confirmed the boasts, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced endorsement of nuclear proliferation, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced tirelessly, indefatigably; you balanced, you balanced, and then you balanced some more. And for that — we thank you. And thank you all for following Les Moonves’s principled lead when he said Donald Trump “may not be good for America, but he’s damn good for CBS.”
posted by chris24 at 7:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [69 favorites]
"6. All our media friends. Thank you for preserving reportorial balance. You balanced Donald Trump’s proposal that the military execute the innocent families of terrorists, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced pot-stirring racist lies about President Obama’s birth, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced a religious test at our borders, torture by our military, jokes about assassination, unfounded claims of a rigged election, boasts about groping and paradoxical threats to sue anyone who confirmed the boasts, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced endorsement of nuclear proliferation, against Hillary’s emails. You balanced tirelessly, indefatigably; you balanced, you balanced, and then you balanced some more. And for that — we thank you. And thank you all for following Les Moonves’s principled lead when he said Donald Trump “may not be good for America, but he’s damn good for CBS.”
posted by chris24 at 7:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [69 favorites]
MetaFilter: a shittown of work.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:35 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:35 AM on November 12, 2016
At this point, I figure the best I can do is just post reactions from nba head coaches. Well, here's Greg Popovich. I wish I had an ounce of his steely reserve and ability to talk about these things without falling apart.
Popovich on the election results
posted by Ghidorah at 7:46 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Popovich on the election results
posted by Ghidorah at 7:46 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Couple deleted - folks again, please let's not go back to "what if Sanders"
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Frowner, how can we help? Should we stop talking about electoral strategy and focus on how to mitigate the likely human-rights implications? I think electoral strategy has just about been talked to death, anyway.
posted by Coventry at 7:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 7:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
To go along with the prediction just mentioned, yes, trump will be impeached. The second his "New York values" step out of line with the party that owns the senate and house, they will discard him. All they need to do is choose from the litany of offenses to remove him from office. Personally, my money is on some sort of conflict of interest charge because I doubt even as President Trump will be able to avoid promoting his hotels.
Once Trump is gone, all hail president Pence.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Once Trump is gone, all hail president Pence.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is this a joke? Gingritch wants to restart HUAC? Openly? I'm gobsmacked.
posted by prefpara at 7:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by prefpara at 7:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Frequency of Google searches for "how to impeach a president" over the last week.
posted by Coventry at 7:57 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Coventry at 7:57 AM on November 12, 2016
Once Trump is gone, all hail president Pence.
Hail to President Pence of the Republic of Gilead.
posted by acb at 7:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hail to President Pence of the Republic of Gilead.
posted by acb at 7:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Pence would have only marginally more practical power as president than as Donald Trump's VP, and the orange lunatic wouldn't be in charge of the world's most heavily armed military anymore. It's an improvement, if only in terms of reducing the risk of global nuclear annihilation.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Only an exceptional prick wouldn't immediately relocate away from Manhattan.
This was way upthread, and I'm sure it's not helpful, but the jokes just write themselves.
Hey look my sense of humor is coming back!
Re: coalition forming, white male leftists etc.: These fuckers have been there the whole time, and I honestly think their numbers are dwindling after having peaked somewhat in the Bush years. If you've ever hung out around a bunch of radicals, you've run into them.
Perhaps they were just emboldened (like the Trumpies! although not) to actually be more vocal about their "progressiveness" online. Vocal socialists have quite often been gadflies, anti-establishment and uncompromising atheists, etc. They are unwilling to form coalitions with, for example, the church, or the Democrats, because only they are enlightened and only their socialism is pure, and when told to "check their privilege" they are resistant and unaware. These guys thrive on rejection just as much as the revanchist right. And in the coming months, they will be railing against everything, post-morteming, talking about how a more progressive candidate would have won, while feeling comfortable that they won't be first for the ax.
We need a plurality of viewpoints, and we probably need some of these guys, because we may partially rely on their privileged asses being comfortable criticizing rising fascism while people in more precarious positions keep their mouths shut. But like many here I've done enough reaching out to them.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:04 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
This was way upthread, and I'm sure it's not helpful, but the jokes just write themselves.
Hey look my sense of humor is coming back!
Re: coalition forming, white male leftists etc.: These fuckers have been there the whole time, and I honestly think their numbers are dwindling after having peaked somewhat in the Bush years. If you've ever hung out around a bunch of radicals, you've run into them.
Perhaps they were just emboldened (like the Trumpies! although not) to actually be more vocal about their "progressiveness" online. Vocal socialists have quite often been gadflies, anti-establishment and uncompromising atheists, etc. They are unwilling to form coalitions with, for example, the church, or the Democrats, because only they are enlightened and only their socialism is pure, and when told to "check their privilege" they are resistant and unaware. These guys thrive on rejection just as much as the revanchist right. And in the coming months, they will be railing against everything, post-morteming, talking about how a more progressive candidate would have won, while feeling comfortable that they won't be first for the ax.
We need a plurality of viewpoints, and we probably need some of these guys, because we may partially rely on their privileged asses being comfortable criticizing rising fascism while people in more precarious positions keep their mouths shut. But like many here I've done enough reaching out to them.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:04 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
and the orange lunatic wouldn't be in charge of the world's most heavily armed military anymore. It's an improvement, if only in terms of reducing the risk of global nuclear annihilation.
And Trump wouldn't be able to muse about defaulting on the debt and crash the economy.
posted by chris24 at 8:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
And Trump wouldn't be able to muse about defaulting on the debt and crash the economy.
posted by chris24 at 8:05 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
On preview, in case it wasn't clear: that wasn't meant as an indictment of white male leftists as a whole, but a certain subset.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
All these things I have dreaded for years are coming true and I don't even know how to handle it.
My hope is it will pass quickly, a knee-jerk reaction to going from being all-but-certain winners to complete losers in the 'who sets the message' contest. As horrible as it is, I'm certain that many of the straight cis white people who were making left leaning noises were making them because it was becoming popular to do so, and they thought that the leaders responsible for the National Conversation were going to be making it even more so.
Along comes the president-elect, and maybe they're going to be looked at askance if they talk about queer rights and Black Lives Matter, and they start to shut up. I hate it and I get it at the same time, and I hope straight cis white people on the left unfuck themselves with a quickness, because the rest of the left doesn't have time for this.
posted by Mooski at 8:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
My hope is it will pass quickly, a knee-jerk reaction to going from being all-but-certain winners to complete losers in the 'who sets the message' contest. As horrible as it is, I'm certain that many of the straight cis white people who were making left leaning noises were making them because it was becoming popular to do so, and they thought that the leaders responsible for the National Conversation were going to be making it even more so.
Along comes the president-elect, and maybe they're going to be looked at askance if they talk about queer rights and Black Lives Matter, and they start to shut up. I hate it and I get it at the same time, and I hope straight cis white people on the left unfuck themselves with a quickness, because the rest of the left doesn't have time for this.
posted by Mooski at 8:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
@realDonaldTrump This will prove to be a great time in the lives of ALL Americans. We will unite and we will win, win, win!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:15 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:15 AM on November 12, 2016
I think I've said some of this before here, but my feeling about the polling data is that the polls, like everything else in the system, are built to accept the notion of systemic bias and expect society to continue along the paths of implicit racism and sexism due to that being the "natural" course of events, when this election came along and brought out the forces of explicit bias, the polls couldn't accurately capture the effect since they were designed under the model of previous normalcy. So they missed those "unlikely" voters for whom the message of bias resonated, and miss counted "likely" voters who sat out due to that same message as well as some of the "unlikely" minority voters who went to the polls to try and deny those forces. So my feeling is the numbers are wrong in many places, even in the aggregations that included larger margins of error for uncertain voters, because, while even though the end result may be closer to the predictions of the latter, the modeling may still be working off flawed premises that could be infecting the data, not to mention the turnout for being potentially misguiding in their projections of the outcome.
Some areas that I think needs particular examination on the left is in ideas of progress being like a straight line rather than being multilinear. A lot of the split on the left this time seemed to be around the idea that Sanders was more progressive due primarily to his economic policies as if economics is the best or only measure of progress. It allowed Clinton's effort to be the first woman president to be minimized as representing equally important progress since that progress would be measured in advances for the lives of women rather the "neutrally" meaning where it would affect men mostly. Many women of course weren't ignoring this, but a lot of men on the left did and railed against Clinton for being too centrist or worse.
This dynamic also feeds into what different groups value or see in candidates, with the traditional preferred model being one of heroic individualism, the bold top down leader who'll force the nation to go the way he wants, versus the collaborative model which women and minority voters have long been accustomed to as the only way to gain representation in a system that is built against their interests. With Obama, both these dynamics came together in his first election, where a heroic figure matched the collaborative ideal and he was handily elected with a huge network of support behind him. This election that network fractured between Sanders and Clinton, with Sanders getting the hero support and Clinton getting the collaborative in the primaries. This split couldn't be repaired fully after the primaries despite the efforts of both Sanders and Clinton who clearly understood the existence of it. Placing the blame on either of them then isn't as sensible as placing any needed blame on a system that privileges heroic individualism so strongly at the expense of collaboration and in the voters who turned their backs on one kind of progress because it wasn't their preferred model.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:18 AM on November 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
Some areas that I think needs particular examination on the left is in ideas of progress being like a straight line rather than being multilinear. A lot of the split on the left this time seemed to be around the idea that Sanders was more progressive due primarily to his economic policies as if economics is the best or only measure of progress. It allowed Clinton's effort to be the first woman president to be minimized as representing equally important progress since that progress would be measured in advances for the lives of women rather the "neutrally" meaning where it would affect men mostly. Many women of course weren't ignoring this, but a lot of men on the left did and railed against Clinton for being too centrist or worse.
This dynamic also feeds into what different groups value or see in candidates, with the traditional preferred model being one of heroic individualism, the bold top down leader who'll force the nation to go the way he wants, versus the collaborative model which women and minority voters have long been accustomed to as the only way to gain representation in a system that is built against their interests. With Obama, both these dynamics came together in his first election, where a heroic figure matched the collaborative ideal and he was handily elected with a huge network of support behind him. This election that network fractured between Sanders and Clinton, with Sanders getting the hero support and Clinton getting the collaborative in the primaries. This split couldn't be repaired fully after the primaries despite the efforts of both Sanders and Clinton who clearly understood the existence of it. Placing the blame on either of them then isn't as sensible as placing any needed blame on a system that privileges heroic individualism so strongly at the expense of collaboration and in the voters who turned their backs on one kind of progress because it wasn't their preferred model.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:18 AM on November 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump This will prove to be a great time in the lives of ALL Americans. We will unite and we will win, win, win!
Forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling towards fascism.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling towards fascism.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
So the narrative of the election in my not super political social circles is being set as 'Dems lost because they didn't listen to poor white people. We need to listen more to poor white people and not call them mean names like racists and sexists. '
*sigh* Thanks media!
posted by Jalliah at 8:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Mayor Bill de Blasio Turns Defiant With Trump: The mayor said his administration would fight any attempt to deport people in the city, any effort to undermine abortion rights and any movement to repeal the Affordable Care Act, commonly known as ObamaCare.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2016 [34 favorites]
So the narrative of the election in my not super political social circles is being set as 'Dems lost because they didn't listen to poor white people. We need to listen more to poor white people and not call them mean names like racists and sexists. '
That seems to be a narrative for a not insignificant number of people right here in this thread. White fragility (warning: PDF) is a very real thing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
That seems to be a narrative for a not insignificant number of people right here in this thread. White fragility (warning: PDF) is a very real thing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mayor Bill de Blasio Turns Defiant With Trump: The mayor said his administration would fight any attempt to deport people in the city, any effort to undermine abortion rights and any movement to repeal the Affordable Care Act, commonly known as ObamaCare.
Was think about this last night as I was reading about other cities that preparing to fight the same sort of fight. City-states. Not exactly as they have existed in the past but could the consequences of this election, where the political differences between urban and exurban have been made even more stark be the start of the rise, or fight for some sort of neo-american version of the city-state?
Possible I think.
posted by Jalliah at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Was think about this last night as I was reading about other cities that preparing to fight the same sort of fight. City-states. Not exactly as they have existed in the past but could the consequences of this election, where the political differences between urban and exurban have been made even more stark be the start of the rise, or fight for some sort of neo-american version of the city-state?
Possible I think.
posted by Jalliah at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Frowner, how can we help? Should we stop talking about electoral strategy and focus on how to mitigate the likely human-rights implications? I think electoral strategy has just about been talked to death, anyway.
Actually, no, I just thought of something. What you need to do is coalition build with us. I mean both you, white male leftist-dominated orgs, need to coalition build with us, non-white-male-leftists, and that when you go to coalition-build with rural whites, you can't just go on your own.
Don't cut deals with rural and suburban white people who won't work with women, POC and queers. Don't go out there as white dudes and cut deals for your orgs. Go with us and stand up for us, and only work with people who will work with us as equals.
Even in Tinytown Indiana, there's white people who are closeted, or have POC friends, or have enough of a union or religious tradition that they can overcome the lies they've been fed, or people who have seen the wider world on television and want a bigger life than they've been given. Those people will rise to the occasion if they are asked. There have always been poor and working class whites in this country who have worked with diverse coalitions on economic issues.
Don't sell us out to make new white straight male allies, that's what I'm saying. Don't hide us or pretend we don't exist. We have many, many strong leaders and strong organizing traditions; don't pretend we can't get out the vote or write policy or write history. Or make history!
And when I say "don't hide us", I don't mean just referring to us verbally. We need to be alongside you in numbers that reflect our presence in society - not just one woman or POC or visibly queer person on your platforms. We need to be equals in your orgs, and we need to be equal partners to your orgs. Make it so no one can work with you if they won't work with us.
And underneath all that - pay attention. The regime will try to buy you, and not how you think. You'll have the opportunity to "stand up for" little old us on the platform, you'll have the opportunity to play the hero and the big man. (Read Handmaid's Tale if you don't believe me.) And little by little, maybe you'll decide that we can't take care of ourselves and after all we "need" you to protect us - you'll do more for us than we could for ourselves, so it's not really that important that we are losing our rights and visibility. You'll get the chance to be the good father - but remember that we didn't sign up to be your kids.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [88 favorites]
Actually, no, I just thought of something. What you need to do is coalition build with us. I mean both you, white male leftist-dominated orgs, need to coalition build with us, non-white-male-leftists, and that when you go to coalition-build with rural whites, you can't just go on your own.
Don't cut deals with rural and suburban white people who won't work with women, POC and queers. Don't go out there as white dudes and cut deals for your orgs. Go with us and stand up for us, and only work with people who will work with us as equals.
Even in Tinytown Indiana, there's white people who are closeted, or have POC friends, or have enough of a union or religious tradition that they can overcome the lies they've been fed, or people who have seen the wider world on television and want a bigger life than they've been given. Those people will rise to the occasion if they are asked. There have always been poor and working class whites in this country who have worked with diverse coalitions on economic issues.
Don't sell us out to make new white straight male allies, that's what I'm saying. Don't hide us or pretend we don't exist. We have many, many strong leaders and strong organizing traditions; don't pretend we can't get out the vote or write policy or write history. Or make history!
And when I say "don't hide us", I don't mean just referring to us verbally. We need to be alongside you in numbers that reflect our presence in society - not just one woman or POC or visibly queer person on your platforms. We need to be equals in your orgs, and we need to be equal partners to your orgs. Make it so no one can work with you if they won't work with us.
And underneath all that - pay attention. The regime will try to buy you, and not how you think. You'll have the opportunity to "stand up for" little old us on the platform, you'll have the opportunity to play the hero and the big man. (Read Handmaid's Tale if you don't believe me.) And little by little, maybe you'll decide that we can't take care of ourselves and after all we "need" you to protect us - you'll do more for us than we could for ourselves, so it's not really that important that we are losing our rights and visibility. You'll get the chance to be the good father - but remember that we didn't sign up to be your kids.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [88 favorites]
That seems to be a narrative for a not insignificant number of people right here in this thread. White fragility (warning: PDF) is a very real thing.
True that.
posted by Jalliah at 8:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
True that.
posted by Jalliah at 8:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie fucked up his campaign
Face it. Enough Americans are racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigots to get one of their kind elected. What do you really think would have been the results of the General election?
A socialist Jew in this election would have been roadkill. ( And I say that as a Bernie supporter, who put up money for the campaign and voted for him. )
The people 100% responsible for the racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigot in the Oval Office are the American People.
And what I've learned about The American People, made me start the process of emigrating to Israel, because I no longer believe that the US is the safest nation in the world for Jews.
posted by mikelieman at 8:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Face it. Enough Americans are racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigots to get one of their kind elected. What do you really think would have been the results of the General election?
A socialist Jew in this election would have been roadkill. ( And I say that as a Bernie supporter, who put up money for the campaign and voted for him. )
The people 100% responsible for the racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigot in the Oval Office are the American People.
And what I've learned about The American People, made me start the process of emigrating to Israel, because I no longer believe that the US is the safest nation in the world for Jews.
posted by mikelieman at 8:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
My hope is it will pass quickly, a knee-jerk reaction to going from being all-but-certain winners to complete losers in the 'who sets the message' contest. As horrible as it is, I'm certain that many of the straight cis white people who were making left leaning noises were making them because it was becoming popular to do so, and they thought that the leaders responsible for the National Conversation were going to be making it even more so.
The good news, such as it is, is that a lot of that messaging and National Conversation that's not directly related to policy is still going to be set by coastal elites who place relatively higher value on racial, sex-and-gender, and sexuality inclusiveness.
December of 2017, Rey is still gonna be a woman, Finn is still gonna be black, and whichever promised gay character will be introduced or revealed is still going to be gay. Gay people will still be presented as normal boring people, and maybe trans people will start to be included in that too. Anti-racial-minority, anti-religious-minority, and anti-LGBT attitudes will still be presented as problematic, regressive, and stupid.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
The good news, such as it is, is that a lot of that messaging and National Conversation that's not directly related to policy is still going to be set by coastal elites who place relatively higher value on racial, sex-and-gender, and sexuality inclusiveness.
December of 2017, Rey is still gonna be a woman, Finn is still gonna be black, and whichever promised gay character will be introduced or revealed is still going to be gay. Gay people will still be presented as normal boring people, and maybe trans people will start to be included in that too. Anti-racial-minority, anti-religious-minority, and anti-LGBT attitudes will still be presented as problematic, regressive, and stupid.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:44 AM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
That's what makes it so clear to me - they aren't even trying to square the circle. They're just going to stop talking about us, stop pretending that we are important.
I really want, in many ways, to start numbering time as Before Trump and After Trump. I think that things have really shifted solidly, somehow, in just a few days. Everything seems different.
Before Trump, the "allyship" of white male leftists did not look sincere to many people. There was a lot of talk about "virtue signaling" or "price of entry" and other stuff, but the real upshot was: it looked, to a lot of people (honestly, including me) like a lot of what many white male leftists were saying was things they thought would make them popular or accepted in leftist circles rather than things they actually believed. They would, for example, talk a great game about supporting women and women's choice and then be Rapey As Fuck. They would talk a great game about Centering Minority Voices and then proceed to build an organization built around centering the people who could afford to get arrested. Stuff like that.
After Trump, you're seeing some backing away, and honestly I can't help but cynically wonder if it's because for some, they've learned they can be popular without it - that the thing they thought was necessary actually wasn't. And they're jettisoning it like anything else that used to be in fashion and now isn't, because it never went very deep in the first place. It was only the semblance and not the substance of the thing.
posted by corb at 8:45 AM on November 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
I really want, in many ways, to start numbering time as Before Trump and After Trump. I think that things have really shifted solidly, somehow, in just a few days. Everything seems different.
Before Trump, the "allyship" of white male leftists did not look sincere to many people. There was a lot of talk about "virtue signaling" or "price of entry" and other stuff, but the real upshot was: it looked, to a lot of people (honestly, including me) like a lot of what many white male leftists were saying was things they thought would make them popular or accepted in leftist circles rather than things they actually believed. They would, for example, talk a great game about supporting women and women's choice and then be Rapey As Fuck. They would talk a great game about Centering Minority Voices and then proceed to build an organization built around centering the people who could afford to get arrested. Stuff like that.
After Trump, you're seeing some backing away, and honestly I can't help but cynically wonder if it's because for some, they've learned they can be popular without it - that the thing they thought was necessary actually wasn't. And they're jettisoning it like anything else that used to be in fashion and now isn't, because it never went very deep in the first place. It was only the semblance and not the substance of the thing.
posted by corb at 8:45 AM on November 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
Start of thread: Here are a few things I learned while spending most of the Bush years—my twenties—doing civil rights and advocacy work
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:45 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:45 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Anonymous internet forums will be banned.
Question: how will the U.S. ban anonymous internet forums ?
same way they stopped the illegal drug trade, I would imagine
posted by philip-random at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's nothing majorly wrong with the Democratic platform, it's the communication of it that needs a shittown of work.
Media. Unless there's a drastic change in broadcast journalism (and there won't be, because money), the D's aren't likely to win without another superstar.
John Kerry and Al Gore types ain't gonna get it.
This is the grassroots problem. We're awash in the big six of Disney, comcast, Viacom, Fox, CBS and Time Warner. And they, despite evidence to the contrary, are against progressive change in a national, and specifically in a local, election.
posted by petebest at 8:52 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Media. Unless there's a drastic change in broadcast journalism (and there won't be, because money), the D's aren't likely to win without another superstar.
John Kerry and Al Gore types ain't gonna get it.
This is the grassroots problem. We're awash in the big six of Disney, comcast, Viacom, Fox, CBS and Time Warner. And they, despite evidence to the contrary, are against progressive change in a national, and specifically in a local, election.
posted by petebest at 8:52 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
And what I've learned about The American People, made me start the process of emigrating to Israel, because I no longer believe that the US is the safest nation in the world for Jews.
But is an increasingly authoritarian Israel under Netanyahu a safe place for liberals?
posted by acb at 8:58 AM on November 12, 2016
But is an increasingly authoritarian Israel under Netanyahu a safe place for liberals?
posted by acb at 8:58 AM on November 12, 2016
Last night in a bar, Kumail Nanjiani and Thomas Middleditch (stars of the show Silicon Valley) were accosted by right wing assholes who shouted "CUCKS! CUCKS! CUCKS!" in their face and tried to fight them. Luckily the guys were bounced, but this happened in blue state California, in multicultural Los Angeles, in the "hipster" neighborhood of Los Feliz. In case you're wondering if geography, money, or celebrity will protect people from this horrifying shit.
I read somewhere (not sure where, wish I could give credit) that there's been a lot of talk about online radicalization of Muslims, but not enough talk about the online radicalization of young white males.
posted by bluecore at 8:58 AM on November 12, 2016 [49 favorites]
I read somewhere (not sure where, wish I could give credit) that there's been a lot of talk about online radicalization of Muslims, but not enough talk about the online radicalization of young white males.
posted by bluecore at 8:58 AM on November 12, 2016 [49 favorites]
Young people gave Hillary 1,200 roses.
Hillary came and left one for each of her campaign's staff. "Think of the hope it represents". (video)
Yeah, if anyone still isn't clear on what emotional labor is, this is it right here. This person just experienced a crushing professional and personal setback live on stage in public in front of literally the whole goddamn world, and her first actions are to take care of others and lift them up.
Just think what will happen the first time a weather disaster or episode of mass violence or other devastating event makes people turn to the Winner-in-Chief for bigly reassurance. He'll be too busy implementing the whole Trump+Republican plan (if you can even call something so scattershot a plan) to make the next four years one long uninterrupted devastating event.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [48 favorites]
Hillary came and left one for each of her campaign's staff. "Think of the hope it represents". (video)
Yeah, if anyone still isn't clear on what emotional labor is, this is it right here. This person just experienced a crushing professional and personal setback live on stage in public in front of literally the whole goddamn world, and her first actions are to take care of others and lift them up.
Just think what will happen the first time a weather disaster or episode of mass violence or other devastating event makes people turn to the Winner-in-Chief for bigly reassurance. He'll be too busy implementing the whole Trump+Republican plan (if you can even call something so scattershot a plan) to make the next four years one long uninterrupted devastating event.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [48 favorites]
BUSTED: Teacher caught taunting students their parents will be deported now that Trump is president
A fucking teacher. The place where kids should feel safest and the person they should trust the most after their parents? How fucking dare they. At least the teacher was immediately fired.
posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
A fucking teacher. The place where kids should feel safest and the person they should trust the most after their parents? How fucking dare they. At least the teacher was immediately fired.
posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [31 favorites]
Bernie fucked up his campaign
But yeah, she won the popular vote and got within about 1% in Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin and one or two other places. There's nothing majorly wrong with the Democratic platform,
The people 100% responsible for the racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigot in the Oval Office are the American People.
there are way too many angles from which to view this loss, which makes it easy to find and go with the one that confirms our biases.
Given the extremely narrow margin of defeat, I suspect they're all equal parts accurate and bullshit. Bottom line: the Democrats in particular (we so-called progressives in general) collectively stole defeat from the jaws of victory, because just as yes, definitely maybe, perhaps, conceivably Bernie would've won on Tuesday (all things being whatever), it's also true that, if he'd never thrown his hat in the ring, a minor/micro percentage more of left-leaners would have either A. not stayed home on Tuesday and actually voted, or B. not "voted their conscience" and just sort of plugged their noses and gone with the party line. Either way, the good guys lost. God Emperor Trump is ours until he's not ... and all this picking at each other, laying of blame, though inevitable, is serving his ends.
Duty now for the future.
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
But yeah, she won the popular vote and got within about 1% in Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin and one or two other places. There's nothing majorly wrong with the Democratic platform,
The people 100% responsible for the racist, misogynist, religiously intolerant bigot in the Oval Office are the American People.
there are way too many angles from which to view this loss, which makes it easy to find and go with the one that confirms our biases.
Given the extremely narrow margin of defeat, I suspect they're all equal parts accurate and bullshit. Bottom line: the Democrats in particular (we so-called progressives in general) collectively stole defeat from the jaws of victory, because just as yes, definitely maybe, perhaps, conceivably Bernie would've won on Tuesday (all things being whatever), it's also true that, if he'd never thrown his hat in the ring, a minor/micro percentage more of left-leaners would have either A. not stayed home on Tuesday and actually voted, or B. not "voted their conscience" and just sort of plugged their noses and gone with the party line. Either way, the good guys lost. God Emperor Trump is ours until he's not ... and all this picking at each other, laying of blame, though inevitable, is serving his ends.
Duty now for the future.
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Before Trump, the "allyship" of white male leftists did not look sincere to many people. There was a lot of talk about "virtue signaling" or "price of entry" and other stuff
From my vantage point, that rhetoric seemed to be coming from inside the house of brocialism, directed towards Hillary supporters and anyone else who dared acknowledge that social justice is an orthogonal axis to economic class. White male leftists weren't actually doing a whole lot on the allyship front and were often vocally critical of efforts to do so, so the idea that they're backing away in significant numbers now seems off to me. If you have evidence for it I'd certainly like to see it, of course.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
From my vantage point, that rhetoric seemed to be coming from inside the house of brocialism, directed towards Hillary supporters and anyone else who dared acknowledge that social justice is an orthogonal axis to economic class. White male leftists weren't actually doing a whole lot on the allyship front and were often vocally critical of efforts to do so, so the idea that they're backing away in significant numbers now seems off to me. If you have evidence for it I'd certainly like to see it, of course.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thanks, Frowner. FWIW, personally, I fully agree with the values and goals you outlined.
posted by Coventry at 9:15 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:15 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
You can go round and round about what Clinton could have done differently, but the fact of the matter is that Clinton was swift-boated using bullshit innuendos by a Republican FBI director who decided to throw the election to the Republicans.
The first round came in July when James Comey realized that he didn't have a case, but against all precedent, made a personal evaluation and statement about a case that would never be prosecuted.
Clinton survived the first round of Comey's attack, as it faded into the background. But in the last week before the election, he fanned the flames, again defying all precedent and also his superiors' recommendations.
This is what started the swing from Clinton landslide to Trump victory. Nate Silver estimates there was a 2% swing in the vote in the last week. That 2% would have been a Clinton landslide in the electoral college.
If you want to blame anyone, blame Obama who, in an attempt to appease Republicans, appointed a Republican as FBI director. Republicans never play this way. Republicans never appoint Democrats to any position in government. When will Democrats learn that trying to be friends with Republicans is simply taken as a sign of weakness and, as in this case, an opportunity to take advantage.
Without James Comey, Hillary Clinton would be heading for the White House today.
posted by JackFlash at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [61 favorites]
The first round came in July when James Comey realized that he didn't have a case, but against all precedent, made a personal evaluation and statement about a case that would never be prosecuted.
Clinton survived the first round of Comey's attack, as it faded into the background. But in the last week before the election, he fanned the flames, again defying all precedent and also his superiors' recommendations.
This is what started the swing from Clinton landslide to Trump victory. Nate Silver estimates there was a 2% swing in the vote in the last week. That 2% would have been a Clinton landslide in the electoral college.
If you want to blame anyone, blame Obama who, in an attempt to appease Republicans, appointed a Republican as FBI director. Republicans never play this way. Republicans never appoint Democrats to any position in government. When will Democrats learn that trying to be friends with Republicans is simply taken as a sign of weakness and, as in this case, an opportunity to take advantage.
Without James Comey, Hillary Clinton would be heading for the White House today.
posted by JackFlash at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [61 favorites]
@Splitcoil
Jobs that don't work on reduced hours schedule:
-Lighthouse keeper
-Fire watch
-Fucking President of the USA, fucking obviously
posted by tonycpsu at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Jobs that don't work on reduced hours schedule:
-Lighthouse keeper
-Fire watch
-Fucking President of the USA, fucking obviously
posted by tonycpsu at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Clinton received slightly fewer votes than Obama 2012. She received millions more votes than John Kerry and will end up having received 12 million more votes than Al Gore.
Total number of votes isn't an accurate comparison unless you adjust for population. Trump liked to brag that he got more Republican primary votes than ever; it was because there were more people.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:26 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
So I'm not yet able to look at the actual news, but the amount of normalization I'm seeing elsewhere is really fucking frightening. Can anyone who's actually looking at the news say how that's going? I'm guessing pretty poorly.
In a just world, "self-admitted sexual predator" would be appended to every mention of his name, but I'm guessing CNN's not going that way.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
In a just world, "self-admitted sexual predator" would be appended to every mention of his name, but I'm guessing CNN's not going that way.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
im also against siding with the idea of "reaching out to the working class" as it has been defined by this election. If tolerating racism, bigotry and misogyny is what is required then fuck that. I realized months ago that for all the talk of economy that it wasn't the main issue but for a small segment of people. In my experience (and a lot of others) we didn't hear "we're poor", no, we heard "cunt", "illegals", "islamic radical terrorists", "race wars" and "ghostbusters reboot".
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Without James Comey, Hillary Clinton would be heading for the White House today.
It's a very plausible claim, but I don't think we can say it with the level of certainty you're expressing here.
Marcy Wheeler: The Blame Comey Movement
posted by tonycpsu at 9:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a very plausible claim, but I don't think we can say it with the level of certainty you're expressing here.
Marcy Wheeler: The Blame Comey Movement
There is a big rush from commentators on all sides to blame Jim Comey for the election result. And while normally I’m happy to blame Comey for things, I’m not convinced we have data to support that claim here, at least not yet. [...]Wheeler does include a several updates at the bottom of the post from people who add more data points in favor of the Blame Comey thesis, and I find them all convincing, but I'm still not ready to say it was decisive, just that it could have been (which is certainly bad enough coming from a sitting FBI director.) I eagerly look forward to more detailed analysis of this theory in the coming weeks and months.
Let me close by emphasizing what I am not saying. I am not saying the email scandal didn’t affect the election at all. I am not saying that the press’ disproportionate coverage of it as opposed to Trump’s own corruption didn’t affect the election. Nor am I saying that the Comey letter definitively did not affect the election.
Rather, I’m just saying we don’t have proof that a somewhat inexact correlation between Trump’s late surge and the Comey letter was the cause of his late surge. I’m happy to be convinced otherwise. But right now I’m not seeing it.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I won't self-link but yeah, the normalization is terrifying to me, so much so that I wrote a blog post (I don't have time to write very many these days). When the President proposes something that seems like it might be a bit fascist, some folks will be screaming "yes, he promised this during his campaign" while the media and "establishment" which has decided to normalize him will say that his campaign behavior doesn't count and isn't evidence that the proposal is actually fascist. "He doesn't really mean that" they'll say.
posted by R343L at 9:33 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by R343L at 9:33 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
daily O: Oh oh, Pakistani news channel claims Trump was born in Pakistan
Donald Trump, the 45th President of the United States of America, was actually born Dawood Ibrahim Khan, according to Pakistan’s Neo News.
The report mentioned that Donald or Dawood’s parents were killed in a car accident, post which he was taken to London by a British Indian Army captain. In London, Dawood was adopted by the Trump family.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Donald Trump, the 45th President of the United States of America, was actually born Dawood Ibrahim Khan, according to Pakistan’s Neo News.
The report mentioned that Donald or Dawood’s parents were killed in a car accident, post which he was taken to London by a British Indian Army captain. In London, Dawood was adopted by the Trump family.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Selflinking in a comment is A-OK. Just don't do it in an FPP.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
In a just world, "self-admitted sexual predator" would be appended to every mention of his name(...)
Gaz, you just lent me what I'm going to call him from now on, or as long as this tragedy lasts.
Predator-Elect Trump.
posted by vers at 9:36 AM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
Gaz, you just lent me what I'm going to call him from now on, or as long as this tragedy lasts.
Predator-Elect Trump.
posted by vers at 9:36 AM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
daily O: Oh oh, Pakistani news channel claims Trump was born in Pakistan
This is, to be clear [fake, satire]
posted by zachlipton at 9:39 AM on November 12, 2016
This is, to be clear [fake, satire]
posted by zachlipton at 9:39 AM on November 12, 2016
"Virtue signaling" is an alt right dog whistle based on the idea that minority work has no value other than to be appropriated by cishet whites as a display of conspicuous liberalism.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Will Trump fly back and forth between DC and Manhattan in AF1 or in his own plane? AF1 most likely, but that would mean giving up in a grift oppty.
Tough decision!
posted by notyou at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2016
Tough decision!
posted by notyou at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2016
Will Trump fly back and forth between DC and Manhattan in AF1 or in his own plane? AF1 most likely, but that would mean giving up in a grift oppty.
Any plane that he flies on after January 20 will be AF1, whether he owns it or not.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Any plane that he flies on after January 20 will be AF1, whether he owns it or not.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie's empire strikes back: In state after state, supporters of the Vermont senator's presidential bid are challenging the Democratic establishment for party control.
Elizabeth Warren vs. Bernie Sanders: The race to be the working-class champion of the left
posted by homunculus at 9:53 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Elizabeth Warren vs. Bernie Sanders: The race to be the working-class champion of the left
posted by homunculus at 9:53 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
And the Prez has to fly in the standard Air Force One, because it's the only long-range aircraft with the comms and defence systems to let them do the job in security. Once you're in that job, you don't have the luxury of choosing your own transport in non-secure environments, under any circumstances. You can bike around your own ranch, but that's about it.
posted by Devonian at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm still not ready to say it was decisive [Comey]
Comey's partisan declaration of "extremely careless" was the grounds for the "lock her up" claim throughout the campaign, starting at the Republican convention.
Seriously, you don't think that Comey's actions were able to swing the vote by even a fraction of a percent out of millions of votes? By 10,000 votes in Michigan? By 20,000 in Florida? By 20,000 in Wisconsin?
The margins were extremely close. The polls swung by 2% immediately after Comey's announcement in the last week. A tiny fraction of that 2% was enough to turn the election.
posted by JackFlash at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
Comey's partisan declaration of "extremely careless" was the grounds for the "lock her up" claim throughout the campaign, starting at the Republican convention.
Seriously, you don't think that Comey's actions were able to swing the vote by even a fraction of a percent out of millions of votes? By 10,000 votes in Michigan? By 20,000 in Florida? By 20,000 in Wisconsin?
The margins were extremely close. The polls swung by 2% immediately after Comey's announcement in the last week. A tiny fraction of that 2% was enough to turn the election.
posted by JackFlash at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
I wonder how Trump's brush clearing game is
posted by thelonius at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
They don't make work gloves small enough
posted by EarBucket at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
> if Trump really puts someone like Sheriff David Clarke in charge of Homeland Security, it really feels like we're headed down a dark path.
Possible Homeland Security pick wants National Guard to stomp out anti-Trump protests: Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke Jr. wants to shut down ‘goon anarchists.’
posted by homunculus at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Possible Homeland Security pick wants National Guard to stomp out anti-Trump protests: Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke Jr. wants to shut down ‘goon anarchists.’
posted by homunculus at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Seriously, you don't think that Comey's actions were able to swing the vote by even a fraction of a percent out of millions of votes?
I said they were able to. I object to the claim that they did.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I said they were able to. I object to the claim that they did.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
They would, for example, talk a great game about supporting women and women's choice and then be Rapey As Fuck. They would talk a great game about Centering Minority Voices and then proceed to build an organization built around centering the people who could afford to get arrested. Stuff like that.
They would suggest that it'd be a great idea for a conservative #NeverTrump MeFite to go work in the Trump White House so as to influence policy! yay, realpolitik! building bridges! -- without considering how that might be kind of a, you know, hostile or dangerous workplace for a Latinx woman. But that's cool. We leftfolk in the groups being targeted in all the incidents piling up in Shaun King's twitter feed just need to suck it up and take one for the team by "reaching out" to those doing and promoting and enabling the attacks.
It'd also be nice if there were some reflection given to women's perspectives on Trump and the meaning of his victory during this post-mortem and rebuilding period. Similarly, Hillary may not have inspired some voters and may have lost the election, but she and Michelle Obama and Elizabeth Warren stood up and boldly called Trump out on his horrific behavior and the damage that shit does to women, girls, and our entire culture. Their words and solidarity have had, and will have, real impact on people's lives. In 20 years, women who are little girls now are going to remember this stuff. I'm sorry that doesn't fit into the conventional Rah Rah Go Team dude-friendly "a candidate's sole job is to win elections" narrative or definition of political success, but it has tangible value as an act of public service.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:01 AM on November 12, 2016 [35 favorites]
They would suggest that it'd be a great idea for a conservative #NeverTrump MeFite to go work in the Trump White House so as to influence policy! yay, realpolitik! building bridges! -- without considering how that might be kind of a, you know, hostile or dangerous workplace for a Latinx woman. But that's cool. We leftfolk in the groups being targeted in all the incidents piling up in Shaun King's twitter feed just need to suck it up and take one for the team by "reaching out" to those doing and promoting and enabling the attacks.
It'd also be nice if there were some reflection given to women's perspectives on Trump and the meaning of his victory during this post-mortem and rebuilding period. Similarly, Hillary may not have inspired some voters and may have lost the election, but she and Michelle Obama and Elizabeth Warren stood up and boldly called Trump out on his horrific behavior and the damage that shit does to women, girls, and our entire culture. Their words and solidarity have had, and will have, real impact on people's lives. In 20 years, women who are little girls now are going to remember this stuff. I'm sorry that doesn't fit into the conventional Rah Rah Go Team dude-friendly "a candidate's sole job is to win elections" narrative or definition of political success, but it has tangible value as an act of public service.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:01 AM on November 12, 2016 [35 favorites]
Elizabeth Warren vs. Bernie Sanders: The race to be the working-class champion of the leftZero evidence is provided in that article that Warren and Sanders are in any kind of conflict or horse race, and I'm extremely skeptical about the prospect of one arising. I believe that if Warren wants a leadership position, Sanders will be happy to cede it. As I recall, Sanders only started to get serious about running for President after it was clear that Warren wouldn't.
posted by Coventry at 10:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bernie Sanders needs to be a member of the Democratic Party if he wants to lead it.
posted by zachlipton at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
Elizabeth Warren vs. Bernie Sanders: The race to be the working-class champion of the left
What can Elizabeth Warren do to convince you people that she does not want to be POTUS?
Donald Trump just got elected president and you're still wallowing in identity politics.
Yes, she's a woman. A woman who does not want the job, and has never sought any executive-branch experience.
She's a scholar, and a lawmaker. And a damn good one. Leave it at that.
posted by ocschwar at 10:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
What can Elizabeth Warren do to convince you people that she does not want to be POTUS?
Donald Trump just got elected president and you're still wallowing in identity politics.
Yes, she's a woman. A woman who does not want the job, and has never sought any executive-branch experience.
She's a scholar, and a lawmaker. And a damn good one. Leave it at that.
posted by ocschwar at 10:09 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Bernie Sanders needs to be a member of the Democratic Party if he wants to lead it.
I keep getting into arguments about how the Democratic Party is not a public utility and expecting the people who comprise it to hand the keys over to somebody who refuses to be a member is asinine. (It's especially asinine from leftists who will complain endlessly about Trot entryism, but...)
Donald Trump just got elected president and you're still wallowing in identity politics.
It was identity politics that elected Trump.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
I keep getting into arguments about how the Democratic Party is not a public utility and expecting the people who comprise it to hand the keys over to somebody who refuses to be a member is asinine. (It's especially asinine from leftists who will complain endlessly about Trot entryism, but...)
Donald Trump just got elected president and you're still wallowing in identity politics.
It was identity politics that elected Trump.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
Bernie Sanders needs to be a member of the Democratic Party if he wants to lead it.
I actually think he'll be a more effective leader for the left generally speaking if he remains outside of the party apparatus. He's close to Ellison, Warren, and others within the movement to pull the party in his direction, and that won't change based on his party affiliation. Operating outside the party means he doesn't have to play ball if they're moving in the wrong direction. As long as he maintains enough of the organizing and fundraising presence he developed as a candidate, he's better off remaining independent.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:12 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I actually think he'll be a more effective leader for the left generally speaking if he remains outside of the party apparatus. He's close to Ellison, Warren, and others within the movement to pull the party in his direction, and that won't change based on his party affiliation. Operating outside the party means he doesn't have to play ball if they're moving in the wrong direction. As long as he maintains enough of the organizing and fundraising presence he developed as a candidate, he's better off remaining independent.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:12 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Although that also gives his supporters room to disavow any party Dem they don't like if they gain in popularity apart from Sanders influence, which caused some issues this election potentially.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by gusottertrout at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2016
Although that also gives his supporters room to disavow any party Dem they don't like if they gain in popularity apart from Sanders influence, which caused some issues this election potentially.
Sure. It's like federated labor unions. Solidarity as often as you can, but when interests are in opposition, you have the freedom to operate on your own. Nothing wrong with that at all.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:18 AM on November 12, 2016
Sure. It's like federated labor unions. Solidarity as often as you can, but when interests are in opposition, you have the freedom to operate on your own. Nothing wrong with that at all.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:18 AM on November 12, 2016
Less superhero thinking and more team building would be my preference, in other words.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:18 AM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 10:18 AM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
The idea that the Democratic party isn't going to replay the election, including the primary, in intense detail now to figure out what went wrong and what to improve, is nuts. "Look forwards not backwards" is always a false dichotomy, and it is now. We have to think about what happened in the last year, with a gimlet empirical eye. The idea that liberals shouldn't relitigate the primary might have made some sense during the general election, but it makes no sense now: one learns by rehashing the past. If folks don't have the stomach for that, they can skim over those posts, and if we as a community here can't bear it, we here may have to avoid it altogether. But more generally for the left, just as it was nuts to be asked to judge the Iraq war in year X without re-examining its origins, so to it is nuts to plan future Democratic strategy without looking at the recent past. I have said before that I am personally skeptical of how much we can learn, and that most of the things people thought made a big difference did not provably do so. But that's very different from saying that we shouldn't try. We may decide that we here on this forum are not up to the inevitable acrimony, which is fine, but the party and the left is going to have to do it, and willy-nilly, that is what will happen. Hopefully we can at least do it sanely based on facts and data, rather than ungrounded pronouncements and punditry, which always threatens to overwhelm careful evidence-based analysis.
posted by chortly at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chortly at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The report mentioned that Donald or Dawood’s parents were killed in a car accident, post which he was taken to London by a British Indian Army captain. In London, Dawood was adopted by the Trump family.
and the name on his original birth certificate was ... Damien
posted by philip-random at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
and the name on his original birth certificate was ... Damien
posted by philip-random at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Relitigating the primaries is great if it's productive, but so far I've only seen people do it as a way of shoving blame away from themselves, claiming the moral high ground, and execrating those who disagreed. That's not productive.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
...so far I've only seen people do it as a way of shoving blame away from themselves...If I've done that, I apologize, and I'd be grateful for pointers. Narcissistic thinking can be very sneaky.
posted by Coventry at 10:38 AM on November 12, 2016
On preview, in case it wasn't clear: that wasn't meant as an indictment of white male leftists as a whole, but a certain subset.
posted by aspersioncast
Eponysterical!
posted by Reverend John at 10:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast
Eponysterical!
posted by Reverend John at 10:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Relitigating the primaries is great if it's productive, but so far I've only seen people do it as a way of shoving blame away from themselves, claiming the moral high ground, and execrating those who disagreed. That's not productive.
It's a tightrope for sure right now, but over time as the wounds heal and more analysis comes in, it'll be easier to talk about lessons learned with an eye towards 2020 without it being a proxy for the divisions during the primary. Some of the more forward-looking comments from last night were very insightful. Pretty soon, there will be no reason to look at the 2016 campaign as anything other than a source of data points on how to do better next time.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a tightrope for sure right now, but over time as the wounds heal and more analysis comes in, it'll be easier to talk about lessons learned with an eye towards 2020 without it being a proxy for the divisions during the primary. Some of the more forward-looking comments from last night were very insightful. Pretty soon, there will be no reason to look at the 2016 campaign as anything other than a source of data points on how to do better next time.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:39 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure. It's like federated labor unions. Solidarity as often as you can, but when interests diverge, you operate on your own. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Oh, I posted my response at the same time as yours. There's nothing wrong with it perhaps in voting on legislation and fighting for bills and the like, but when it comes to rallying around a candidate those interests can act as a divide if there isn't a strong sense of unity between the groups. There was some breakdown of unity this time, and that could continue if differences are nurtured.
The problem in the analogy in that sense might be that union demands aren't as focused on the individuals who will be presenting them as much as they are the demands themselves, politics are more about the candidates running as representatives for creating sets of demands, so splits around candidates are of a somewhat different nature than voting for specific demands that do not necessarily carry to various segments of the group that disagrees.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:41 AM on November 12, 2016
Oh, I posted my response at the same time as yours. There's nothing wrong with it perhaps in voting on legislation and fighting for bills and the like, but when it comes to rallying around a candidate those interests can act as a divide if there isn't a strong sense of unity between the groups. There was some breakdown of unity this time, and that could continue if differences are nurtured.
The problem in the analogy in that sense might be that union demands aren't as focused on the individuals who will be presenting them as much as they are the demands themselves, politics are more about the candidates running as representatives for creating sets of demands, so splits around candidates are of a somewhat different nature than voting for specific demands that do not necessarily carry to various segments of the group that disagrees.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:41 AM on November 12, 2016
Relitigating the primaries is great if it's productive, but so far I've only seen people do it as a way of shoving blame away from themselves, claiming the moral high ground, and execrating those who disagreed. That's not productive.
yeah, I'd love to see everybody on the so-called left embrace something along the lines of Cognitive Bias Week (or perhaps Month) in which, rather than go looking for that evidence which supports our already formed notions of "how things are", we do the opposite. We seek to prove ourselves wrong, or at least, explore an alternative option with blinders removed.
If you're a Bernie supporter, this means digging deep into the notion that, regardless of what might have happened with him on Tuesday, the very fact that he threw his hat into the ring when he did ultimately decided things -- it divided the "left" enough for that one percent of votes to get lost ...
Likewise, if you've been blaming Bernie, maybe take a hard look at something like this:
"She was the Democratic candidate because it was her turn and because a Clinton victory would have moved every Democrat in Washington up a notch. Whether or not she would win was always a secondary matter, something that was taken for granted. Had winning been the party’s number one concern, several more suitable candidates were ready to go. [...] Each of them would probably have beaten Trump, but neither of them would really have served the interests of the party insiders.
And so on.
posted by philip-random at 10:45 AM on November 12, 2016
yeah, I'd love to see everybody on the so-called left embrace something along the lines of Cognitive Bias Week (or perhaps Month) in which, rather than go looking for that evidence which supports our already formed notions of "how things are", we do the opposite. We seek to prove ourselves wrong, or at least, explore an alternative option with blinders removed.
If you're a Bernie supporter, this means digging deep into the notion that, regardless of what might have happened with him on Tuesday, the very fact that he threw his hat into the ring when he did ultimately decided things -- it divided the "left" enough for that one percent of votes to get lost ...
Likewise, if you've been blaming Bernie, maybe take a hard look at something like this:
"She was the Democratic candidate because it was her turn and because a Clinton victory would have moved every Democrat in Washington up a notch. Whether or not she would win was always a secondary matter, something that was taken for granted. Had winning been the party’s number one concern, several more suitable candidates were ready to go. [...] Each of them would probably have beaten Trump, but neither of them would really have served the interests of the party insiders.
And so on.
posted by philip-random at 10:45 AM on November 12, 2016
Relitigating the primaries is great if it's productive, but so far I've only seen people do it as a way of shoving blame away from themselves, claiming the moral high ground, and execrating those who disagreed. That's not productive.
Sure, but that's an argument for doing it better, not for not doing it. It may be that we as a community can't do it better, but if so, that's a very bad sign, since we are much more reasonable and rational here than the average Democratic voter. The goal should be to figure out how to do it in a reasonable and productive way, and to keep at that task even if unpleasant, rather than to dismiss it as impossible and hopeless.
From my perspective, what I've seen has actually been fairly productive, by the standards of political argument. Those arguing otherwise, that it is all a waste of time, sound more like my friends who oppose politics altogether and claim than any and all political argument is about blame-shifting, claiming the moral high ground, execrating those they disagree with, etc. And they have a point. But I stick with politics because, though all true, I find nuggets of content and progress in there, and the alternative -- to drop political disagreement altogether -- seems untenable. I apply the same logic to internal party disagreements as across-party ones: it may look bad, and feel bad, but what's the alternative? Silence? Waiting until the perfect right day when our moods are all stable and happy before having a perfectly rational discussion? That way leads to stagnation. Maybe that's a false dichotomy, and I'm happy to consider intermediate positions, but I don't know what those might be. One was, let's not relitigate the primaries until after the election. But that time has come and gone. What now is the logic for delay? The only argument I can really see is that we are not up to it, which may well be true, but is too bad, because we of all people, who share so many things in common and are among the most educated, should be able to do it. It will be too bad for the left if even we can't.
Don't Overlearn by Duncan Black.
I think this is honestly the best, truest thing Black has written in 8 years.
Yep, which is what I said in my original comment -- I think there's a lot less to learn than many people think. But the only way to know that for sure is to test it. In this big data world, we all know about over-fitting now, but in the end we have to make inferences about what to do next. Over-fitting is bad, but so is going with unchanged priors without evaluating whether there has been new evidence. There's no free lunch, and no alternative to looking at all the data and modeling it as carefully and rigorously as possible, which for people, means discussing it in careful, excruciating (to some) detail.
posted by chortly at 10:46 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure, but that's an argument for doing it better, not for not doing it. It may be that we as a community can't do it better, but if so, that's a very bad sign, since we are much more reasonable and rational here than the average Democratic voter. The goal should be to figure out how to do it in a reasonable and productive way, and to keep at that task even if unpleasant, rather than to dismiss it as impossible and hopeless.
From my perspective, what I've seen has actually been fairly productive, by the standards of political argument. Those arguing otherwise, that it is all a waste of time, sound more like my friends who oppose politics altogether and claim than any and all political argument is about blame-shifting, claiming the moral high ground, execrating those they disagree with, etc. And they have a point. But I stick with politics because, though all true, I find nuggets of content and progress in there, and the alternative -- to drop political disagreement altogether -- seems untenable. I apply the same logic to internal party disagreements as across-party ones: it may look bad, and feel bad, but what's the alternative? Silence? Waiting until the perfect right day when our moods are all stable and happy before having a perfectly rational discussion? That way leads to stagnation. Maybe that's a false dichotomy, and I'm happy to consider intermediate positions, but I don't know what those might be. One was, let's not relitigate the primaries until after the election. But that time has come and gone. What now is the logic for delay? The only argument I can really see is that we are not up to it, which may well be true, but is too bad, because we of all people, who share so many things in common and are among the most educated, should be able to do it. It will be too bad for the left if even we can't.
Don't Overlearn by Duncan Black.
I think this is honestly the best, truest thing Black has written in 8 years.
Yep, which is what I said in my original comment -- I think there's a lot less to learn than many people think. But the only way to know that for sure is to test it. In this big data world, we all know about over-fitting now, but in the end we have to make inferences about what to do next. Over-fitting is bad, but so is going with unchanged priors without evaluating whether there has been new evidence. There's no free lunch, and no alternative to looking at all the data and modeling it as carefully and rigorously as possible, which for people, means discussing it in careful, excruciating (to some) detail.
posted by chortly at 10:46 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Less superhero thinking and more team building would be my preference, in other words.
I think Sanders and Warren are good people with good ideas and good leadership skills. I also think that they can and likely will provide great leadership to help the Democratic Party move forward and figure out what they are. I think they should be listened to.
As for leader, as in leader going forward? Maybe short-term but focusing on them as the longer-term leaders is short term thinking.
I'll just be blunt and say it. Bernie and Warren are older. Bernie is 75. I hope for long lives for both of them. They are needed. The party needs to work not only short term but long term on some serious succession planning. Find the younger versions of the Warren's and Bernie's if that's the policy direction people chose to take.
Support building the team and building up a new generation of leaders. I think Bernie is aware of this. He's not a stupid man. At least I hope he is aware. Building based on him being a long term leader is short-sighted as harsh as that might sound. Anything that happens needs to outlast and not depend on their physical leadership but the leadership of the ideas they bring to the table.
So yeah superhero talk as any sort of longer term solution is shortsighted.
posted by Jalliah at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think Sanders and Warren are good people with good ideas and good leadership skills. I also think that they can and likely will provide great leadership to help the Democratic Party move forward and figure out what they are. I think they should be listened to.
As for leader, as in leader going forward? Maybe short-term but focusing on them as the longer-term leaders is short term thinking.
I'll just be blunt and say it. Bernie and Warren are older. Bernie is 75. I hope for long lives for both of them. They are needed. The party needs to work not only short term but long term on some serious succession planning. Find the younger versions of the Warren's and Bernie's if that's the policy direction people chose to take.
Support building the team and building up a new generation of leaders. I think Bernie is aware of this. He's not a stupid man. At least I hope he is aware. Building based on him being a long term leader is short-sighted as harsh as that might sound. Anything that happens needs to outlast and not depend on their physical leadership but the leadership of the ideas they bring to the table.
So yeah superhero talk as any sort of longer term solution is shortsighted.
posted by Jalliah at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
If you're a Bernie supporter, this means digging deep into the notion that, regardless of what might have happened to him on Tuesday, the very fact that he threw his hat into the ring when he did ultimately decided things -- it divided the "left" enough for that one percent of votes to get lost
Voter suppression and gutting the Voting Rights Act allowed one percent (or more!) of votes to get "lost"; three hundred thousand voters were turned away at the polls in Wisconsin, alone, for lack of "proper" ID under voter ID laws. The total number of votes cast in Wisconsin? 2.7 million; that 300K represents 10% of the electorate and eleven times more votes lost than Trump's 27.5K margin of victory in the state. Some acknowledgement of the effects of voter suppression, instead of hand-wringing over how Clinton's victory over Sanders drove (a small number of white) "leftists" into the hands of the Greens, or whatever, would be nice.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [59 favorites]
Voter suppression and gutting the Voting Rights Act allowed one percent (or more!) of votes to get "lost"; three hundred thousand voters were turned away at the polls in Wisconsin, alone, for lack of "proper" ID under voter ID laws. The total number of votes cast in Wisconsin? 2.7 million; that 300K represents 10% of the electorate and eleven times more votes lost than Trump's 27.5K margin of victory in the state. Some acknowledgement of the effects of voter suppression, instead of hand-wringing over how Clinton's victory over Sanders drove (a small number of white) "leftists" into the hands of the Greens, or whatever, would be nice.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [59 favorites]
There are a couple of things I might suggest as potential problems with the idea of empirical data, modeling and looking back in these informal environments. One is that as we saw in many of the polls, what we took as data was flawed, some things aren't going to come out empirically, but even were that not so, and I'm not suggesting everyone just ignore data, the larger issue is in making the party and candidates as we want and need them to be, not just as winners for the sake of it following data above needs. It needn't come to that by study, but it is a danger to be guarded against or the party itself loses meaning. Sometimes you have to create things from scratch rather than trying to follow old recipes.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
You remember Chaffetz, the US Representative from Utah who said he could not look his daughter in the eye and vote for Trump? But ended up voting for him anyway?
Utah’s Chaffetz vows to continue Clinton investigations, keep eye on Trump
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Utah’s Chaffetz vows to continue Clinton investigations, keep eye on Trump
Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, said he still has a "duty and obligation" to investigate the actions of the former secretary of state and it doesn't matter that she won't be occupying the White House come January."for years to come"..... Good thing Clinton doesn't have anything better to do with her time.
"I'm not out to get her," Chaffetz said, "but I am here to find the truth and make sure that it never happens again."[...]
Rep. Elijah Cummings, the ranking Democrat on the Oversight Committee, said Wednesday that Chaffetz's relentless pursuit of Clinton flies against the efforts to unite the country after a divisive election.
"It is extremely disappointing that Chairman Chaffetz plans to continue investigating Secretary Clinton for years to come," Cummings said in a statement. "After everything our country has just been through — and particularly given that Donald Trump and Paul Ryan have both called for healing our nation's divisions — I think the American people deserve more from Congress than to continue squandering taxpayer dollars on these baseless Republican accusations and partisan attacks."
The House's chief investigator, Chaffetz has held several hearings on the former secretary of state's use of private, non-government email to send and receive emails. The FBI concluded in a yearlong review that while Clinton had been reckless it did not amount to criminal wrongdoing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
twistedonion: Things are not OK right now. Brexit in the UK is emboldening the white extremists as will Trump in the US. Le Pen will probably do very well in France. Things are far from OK.
Marion Le Pen (niece of Marine Le Pen, and the youngest French MP ever elected): I answer yes to the invitation of Stephen Bannon, CEO of @realDonaldTrump presidential campaign, to work together.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Marion Le Pen (niece of Marine Le Pen, and the youngest French MP ever elected): I answer yes to the invitation of Stephen Bannon, CEO of @realDonaldTrump presidential campaign, to work together.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
it divided the "left" enough for that one percent of votes to get lostWhy do you believe that? When I became active in March/April 2015, there was already deep antipathy towards the establishment Democratic party and Clinton as its anointed candidate.
posted by Coventry at 11:00 AM on November 12, 2016
I think it's way too obvious that Voter Suppression won more than one state for Trump. He said he believed the election was "fixed". TRUMP'S MIRROR. Republicans cheat... and since 2010, they cheat and win. There is all kinds of soul-searching about how Trump was able to get within 2 million votes of Clinton, but as to how he won the Electoral College, it was just cheating.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:02 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
"for years to come"..... Good thing Clinton doesn't have anything better to do with her time.
I suspect the main purpose of this is to discourage her from any activism that might help resist the GOP's policymaking in the next four years.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I suspect the main purpose of this is to discourage her from any activism that might help resist the GOP's policymaking in the next four years.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you wondering what porn stars were thinking, The Daily Beast has you covered:
Porn Stars Fear Life Under President Trump and VP Pence
Politico has an article about Trump's managerial style (hint, it's about what you would expect from a man with no focus but with an abiding need to be sucked up to)
The Executive Mr. Trump
Porn Stars Fear Life Under President Trump and VP Pence
Indiana native and adult actress Sydney Leathers is all too familiar with Pence’s anti-women legislation. “It disgusts me that someone who clearly has no respect for women is now in such a powerful position. It’s even scarier that Pence will be vice president,” says Leathers. “To think that we have to continue fighting for our reproductive rights is disheartening.”
Politico has an article about Trump's managerial style (hint, it's about what you would expect from a man with no focus but with an abiding need to be sucked up to)
The Executive Mr. Trump
This, on the other hand, is what it’s actually like: You, Bernard Goupy, have been the head chef for six months at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where you serve a Caesar salad in a fancy bowl made from Parmesan cheese. Then one day, Trump stalks into the kitchen yelling about how one of his guests didn’t like the salad. And he angrily demonstrates the proper way to do it, throwing lettuce and tomatoes in a regular bowl and screaming that this is “how we make a Caesar salad where I come from.”posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
On TV, it’s hard to talk back to Trump. But in the kitchen at Mar-a-Lago, Goupy can’t resist. “I didn’t know you were the new executive chef,” Goupy tells the boss.
Trump, furious, storms off.
It’s only the next day that Goupy is actually fired—and not by Trump, but by the club’s general manager, who delivers the message that Trump doesn’t want to see Goupy around anymore.
"Virtue signaling" is an alt right dog whistle based on the idea that minority work has no value other than to be appropriated by cishet whites as a display of conspicuous liberalism.
Or the axiom of neoliberal reductionism that nobody does anything except out of self-interest. If you speak up for minorities, it's to be seen as a “white knight”, and presumably to get laid more. Challenging a racist joke is nothing more than snobbery, no different from sneering at somebody's tacky clothes or cheap mobile phone. Even, taken to its extreme, anonymously donating a fortune to an orphanage is just a way to get a dopamine high, nothing more. Because we all are vicious predators, like the glib Ayn Rand-reading type who trots out this argument, only in it, he is more honest by acknowledging the honesty of being a predator.
posted by acb at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Or the axiom of neoliberal reductionism that nobody does anything except out of self-interest. If you speak up for minorities, it's to be seen as a “white knight”, and presumably to get laid more. Challenging a racist joke is nothing more than snobbery, no different from sneering at somebody's tacky clothes or cheap mobile phone. Even, taken to its extreme, anonymously donating a fortune to an orphanage is just a way to get a dopamine high, nothing more. Because we all are vicious predators, like the glib Ayn Rand-reading type who trots out this argument, only in it, he is more honest by acknowledging the honesty of being a predator.
posted by acb at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
where you serve a Caesar salad in a fancy bowl made from Parmesan cheese.
I've made - with varying degrees of success - little parmesan baskets for salad. The success has ranged from "That seems to be holding together o.k." to "Well, I now have a pan full of melted cheese. There are worse things, I guess..."
It says a lot that people who hang around Trump wouldn't like something as delicious as a bowl for salad made from parmesan cheese. They want their salad to taste of hate and sadness.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've made - with varying degrees of success - little parmesan baskets for salad. The success has ranged from "That seems to be holding together o.k." to "Well, I now have a pan full of melted cheese. There are worse things, I guess..."
It says a lot that people who hang around Trump wouldn't like something as delicious as a bowl for salad made from parmesan cheese. They want their salad to taste of hate and sadness.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
With the info below I think we can bury for good the turnout argument. Even with the loss of the VRA, all the poll closings, shorter hours, no Souls to the Polls, and all the myriad voter suppression, this year will be the highest ever, 135.5m. That beats 2008 by 4 million votes and 2012 by 6 million.
@PatrickRuffini
We are up to 128.5 million votes cast in the 2016 election, just 700k shy of 2012 with plenty left to count out West. [chart]
@Nate_Cohn Retweeted Patrick Ruffini
We think there are 7 million votes left. Will be highest turnout ever, in raw numbers
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
@PatrickRuffini
We are up to 128.5 million votes cast in the 2016 election, just 700k shy of 2012 with plenty left to count out West. [chart]
@Nate_Cohn Retweeted Patrick Ruffini
We think there are 7 million votes left. Will be highest turnout ever, in raw numbers
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
> uhhh. Moscow had contacts with Trump team during campaign, Russian diplomat says
Did Russia Install Donald Trump As the Next U.S. President?
So we're just going to forget WikiLeaks and Russia helped Trump?
And in other news: Donald Trump has been made an honorary Russian Cossack
posted by homunculus at 11:19 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
Did Russia Install Donald Trump As the Next U.S. President?
So we're just going to forget WikiLeaks and Russia helped Trump?
And in other news: Donald Trump has been made an honorary Russian Cossack
posted by homunculus at 11:19 AM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
With the info below I think we can put away for good the turnout argument.
Sadly, my guess is that all of the hot takes that were based on slices of turnout data have already hardened into conventional wisdom and will be zombie lies repeated in support of the "MUST REACH RUST BELT VOTERS" thesis.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sadly, my guess is that all of the hot takes that were based on slices of turnout data have already hardened into conventional wisdom and will be zombie lies repeated in support of the "MUST REACH RUST BELT VOTERS" thesis.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
And he angrily demonstrates the proper way to do it, throwing lettuce and tomatoes in a regular bowl and screaming that this is “how we make a Caesar salad where I come from.”
The bigger story here is that Trump thinks tomatoes go in a Caesar salad. What a philistine.
posted by peeedro at 11:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [32 favorites]
The bigger story here is that Trump thinks tomatoes go in a Caesar salad. What a philistine.
posted by peeedro at 11:22 AM on November 12, 2016 [32 favorites]
> three hundred thousand voters were turned away at the polls in Wisconsin, alone, for lack of "proper" ID under voter ID laws. The total number of votes cast in Wisconsin? 2.7 million
Is there a source for that three hundred thousand voters turned away in Wisconsin figure?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is there a source for that three hundred thousand voters turned away in Wisconsin figure?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
The same kind of private email server Powell and most of the Bush White House used?
If it wasn't the email server, it would have been something else. The plan all along was to destroy her with investigations into the same things Republicans do all the time.
posted by zachlipton at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [27 favorites]
If it wasn't the email server, it would have been something else. The plan all along was to destroy her with investigations into the same things Republicans do all the time.
posted by zachlipton at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [27 favorites]
Pony request: a flag for "events can have multiple causes."
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
If Hillary never made the kind of big mistake of putting the emails on a private server in the first place
If you got a job at the State Department today, policy would still allow you to use your private email for work. In 2017 the rules change such that you have to archive them on State servers within 20 days of sending them.
If it hadn't been the emails, it would have just been something else. It was never really about the emails.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
If you got a job at the State Department today, policy would still allow you to use your private email for work. In 2017 the rules change such that you have to archive them on State servers within 20 days of sending them.
If it hadn't been the emails, it would have just been something else. It was never really about the emails.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:24 AM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, a one-millionth rehash of Clinton's emails is a lot more likely to make heat than light in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
only in it, he is more honest by acknowledging the honesty of being a predator.
Predatory humans aren't born, they're taught. And White Males (especially of my and Donald's generation) were taught to be predators because our parents knew we were not competent enough to survive unless we were IN CHARGE and had other people working for s.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2016
Predatory humans aren't born, they're taught. And White Males (especially of my and Donald's generation) were taught to be predators because our parents knew we were not competent enough to survive unless we were IN CHARGE and had other people working for s.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2016
Likewise, if you've been blaming Bernie, maybe take a hard look at something like this:
"She was the Democratic candidate because it was her turn and because a Clinton victory would have moved every Democrat in Washington up a notch. Whether or not she would win was always a secondary matter, something that was taken for granted. Had winning been the party’s number one concern, several more suitable candidates were ready to go. [...] Each of them would probably have beaten Trump, but neither of them would really have served the interests of the party insiders.
And so on.
posted by philip-random at 1:45 PM on November 12
I had to read the article because I could not imagine who the "several more suitable candidates" are. He names Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. Come the fuck on. I'm not going to talk about Bernie because we've gone over this stuff a million times. But Joe Biden? The man said he decided not to run because his son had just died and he could not give his whole heart to the election. I believe him. Plus, outsider? The VP of the current White House?
I mean, we need to ask ourselves who else could have run? Who could have had the name recognition, the stamina, the desire, and the ability to raise enough money? Who could have appeared as a maverick outsider while having the knowledge to govern well? I know of nobody.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:26 AM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
The raw turnout numbers scrub away most of the low turnout argument, but you'd still like to see them controlled for population growth before erasing it altogether.
posted by notyou at 11:26 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 11:26 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is there a source for that three hundred thousand voters turned away in Wisconsin figure?
I've seen it sourced back to here, but it's not quite 300K voters turned away, it's 300K registered voters lacked proper ID. We don't know how many were turned away and how many just didn't show up because they didn't have ID.
That said, there are arguments that it's not all about voter suppression, especially in states like PA, MI, and FL. It's a factor, but not the only cause.
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 AM on November 12, 2016
I've seen it sourced back to here, but it's not quite 300K voters turned away, it's 300K registered voters lacked proper ID. We don't know how many were turned away and how many just didn't show up because they didn't have ID.
That said, there are arguments that it's not all about voter suppression, especially in states like PA, MI, and FL. It's a factor, but not the only cause.
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 AM on November 12, 2016
But Joe Biden? The man said he decided not to run because his son had just died and he could not give his whole heart to the election. I believe him.
Plus, I love Joe, but he's a gaffe machine.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Plus, I love Joe, but he's a gaffe machine.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sadly, my guess is that all of the hot takes that were based on slices of turnout data have already hardened into conventional wisdom and will be zombie lies repeated in support of the "MUST REACH RUST BELT VOTERS" thesis.
Clinton beat Obama's 2008 vote in Florida and still lost, which is astonishing, but Ohio's Democratic turnout collapsed. Iowa's Democratic turnout collapsed after twice giving its state's electoral votes to Obama. Michigan's Democratic turnout collapsed. Pennsylvania's Democratic turnout fell, but its Republican turnout surged. We should wait for all the numbers to come in, but turnout must form an important part of an analysis of the Democratic defeat.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Clinton beat Obama's 2008 vote in Florida and still lost, which is astonishing, but Ohio's Democratic turnout collapsed. Iowa's Democratic turnout collapsed after twice giving its state's electoral votes to Obama. Michigan's Democratic turnout collapsed. Pennsylvania's Democratic turnout fell, but its Republican turnout surged. We should wait for all the numbers to come in, but turnout must form an important part of an analysis of the Democratic defeat.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
If I were Hillary Clinton I'd be moving to France ASAP, or to some other place far beyond the reach of Trump's DoJ. He's been very clear that he intends to punish her for challenging h im.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:29 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
@KyleGriffin1 .@RevDrBarber: People who voted for Trump for change ultimately voted against their self-interest.
Link takes you to a video clip from MSNBC
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Link takes you to a video clip from MSNBC
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, we need to ask ourselves who else could have run? Who could have had the name recognition, the stamina, the desire, and the ability to raise enough money? Who could have appeared as a maverick outsider while having the knowledge to govern well? I know of nobody.
Well, based on those qualifications, Barack Obama in 2008 certainly wouldn't have qualified.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, based on those qualifications, Barack Obama in 2008 certainly wouldn't have qualified.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:31 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
but turnout must form an important part of an analysis of the Democratic defeat
Sure, but I'll keep harping on this point until someone engages with it -- increasing turnout in NC and FL to win those two states nets the exact same number of EVs as the three rust belt states of WI, MI, and OH, without the problem of muddling the progressive message to appeal to a demographic that doesn't seem receptive to liberal solutions to societal problems.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure, but I'll keep harping on this point until someone engages with it -- increasing turnout in NC and FL to win those two states nets the exact same number of EVs as the three rust belt states of WI, MI, and OH, without the problem of muddling the progressive message to appeal to a demographic that doesn't seem receptive to liberal solutions to societal problems.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
And he BEAT Hillary Clinton in the primaries.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016
I too (seriously) wonder what sort of malformed being would object to a delicious bowl made of parmesan cheese. But of course that anecdote: It's going to be Saturday Night Massacres every week beginning upon when whenever Trump Unbound makes its terrifying appearance.
But of course we can see his top picks for cabinet posts, so it seems like the horror is upon us. There's almost a relief in it; if he had a reasonable cabinet list with a bunch of seemingly reasonable GOPers with maybe a Dick Cheney or two lurking around, it would be tempting to buy into the idea that this was a regular election, that our republic could not bring about such a disaster, that some sort of benign force wouldn't let us destroy ourselves.
There’s a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, ‘tis not to come. If it be not to come, it will be now. If it be not now, yet it will come. The readiness is all. Since man, of aught he leaves, knows aught, what is’t to leave betimes? Let be.
posted by angrycat at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
But of course we can see his top picks for cabinet posts, so it seems like the horror is upon us. There's almost a relief in it; if he had a reasonable cabinet list with a bunch of seemingly reasonable GOPers with maybe a Dick Cheney or two lurking around, it would be tempting to buy into the idea that this was a regular election, that our republic could not bring about such a disaster, that some sort of benign force wouldn't let us destroy ourselves.
There’s a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, ‘tis not to come. If it be not to come, it will be now. If it be not now, yet it will come. The readiness is all. Since man, of aught he leaves, knows aught, what is’t to leave betimes? Let be.
posted by angrycat at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Predatory humans aren't born, they're taught.
Sometimes by their environment; if common wisdom says that there is no such thing as society, only competition red in tooth and claw between self-interested individuals, people will act like that is the case. If it's common wisdom that every interaction has a dominant party and a submissive party, people will measure themselves against others, and seek to assert alpha-dominance where they can, and where not possible, reinforce the other party's belief that they are an alpha. The vocabulary of concepts one has shapes one's model of the world and what is possible.
posted by acb at 11:33 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sometimes by their environment; if common wisdom says that there is no such thing as society, only competition red in tooth and claw between self-interested individuals, people will act like that is the case. If it's common wisdom that every interaction has a dominant party and a submissive party, people will measure themselves against others, and seek to assert alpha-dominance where they can, and where not possible, reinforce the other party's belief that they are an alpha. The vocabulary of concepts one has shapes one's model of the world and what is possible.
posted by acb at 11:33 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The raw turnout numbers scrub away most of the low turnout argument, but you'd still like to see them controlled for population growth before erasing it altogether.
This is total population, not eligible voters, but 2012 was 315m and 2016 is 325m. So a 3.2% increase. Voting from 2012 to 2016 increased 4.6% (129.5m to 135.5m).
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is total population, not eligible voters, but 2012 was 315m and 2016 is 325m. So a 3.2% increase. Voting from 2012 to 2016 increased 4.6% (129.5m to 135.5m).
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Since it doesn't seem to have been posted in this thread yet (I posted it over on MetaTalk yesterday, but it makes sense here too), you guys might find Kamala Harris's Senate victory speech heartening.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
we need to ask ourselves who else could have run?
I think Jim Webb could have cleaned up.
posted by corb at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think Jim Webb could have cleaned up.
posted by corb at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are a couple of things I might suggest as potential problems with the idea of empirical data, modeling and looking back in these informal environments.
Agreed.
One thing that's really bothering me is that people (not only here, but all over) are showing a real tendency to look at one set of numbers and draw conclusions from ONLY that set of numbers.
"Trump had 2% more black voters than Romney!! Clinton took black votes for granted!!"
"Clinton had 3% lower 18-34 voters than Obama!! She shoulda had more Bernie!!"
But that's just way too simplistic; this shit is complicated. We need more data, which simply hasn't been collected yet, and people need to examine and cross-reference and compare and collate the data before any useful conclusions can be drawn. For all we know Trump's bump in black votes was mostly because a bunch of Southern black culturally-conservative evangelicals showed up in states where Clinton would never have won anyway.
Right now referencing numbers is largely a case of the blind men and the elephant.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Agreed.
One thing that's really bothering me is that people (not only here, but all over) are showing a real tendency to look at one set of numbers and draw conclusions from ONLY that set of numbers.
"Trump had 2% more black voters than Romney!! Clinton took black votes for granted!!"
"Clinton had 3% lower 18-34 voters than Obama!! She shoulda had more Bernie!!"
But that's just way too simplistic; this shit is complicated. We need more data, which simply hasn't been collected yet, and people need to examine and cross-reference and compare and collate the data before any useful conclusions can be drawn. For all we know Trump's bump in black votes was mostly because a bunch of Southern black culturally-conservative evangelicals showed up in states where Clinton would never have won anyway.
Right now referencing numbers is largely a case of the blind men and the elephant.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:38 AM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sure, but I'll keep harping on this point until someone engages with it -- increasing turnout in NC and FL to win there nets the exact same number of EVs as increasing turnout in WI, MI, and OH, without the problem of muddling the progressive message to appeal to a demographic that doesn't seem receptive to liberal solutions.
Clinton actually did increase Democratic turnout in Florida - phenomenally so - and still lost, so the strategy of focusing on the South at the expense of the North didn't work. I think chasing Trump voters is a fool's errand, but I don't think the party has to muddle the progressive message to appeal to the abstainers, the people who didn't bother to vote. Maybe I'm wrong, though. The numbers have yet to come in. We'll have better information to work with in the months to come.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton actually did increase Democratic turnout in Florida - phenomenally so - and still lost, so the strategy of focusing on the South at the expense of the North didn't work. I think chasing Trump voters is a fool's errand, but I don't think the party has to muddle the progressive message to appeal to the abstainers, the people who didn't bother to vote. Maybe I'm wrong, though. The numbers have yet to come in. We'll have better information to work with in the months to come.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think Jim Webb could have cleaned up.
He'd have gotten a lot of crossover votes if he'd become the nominee, but would likely have lost a big chunk of the party base over disputes about basic principles of governance. There's a reason he got no traction in the primaries.
posted by kewb at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
He'd have gotten a lot of crossover votes if he'd become the nominee, but would likely have lost a big chunk of the party base over disputes about basic principles of governance. There's a reason he got no traction in the primaries.
posted by kewb at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think Jim Webb could have cleaned up.
You can't be serious. In a "change" election, are people really hungering for Ronald Reagan's Navy Secretary?
There isn't anyone more out of step with the primary electorate. Even assuming he could win the primary, he would have done nothing to turn out the base.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
You can't be serious. In a "change" election, are people really hungering for Ronald Reagan's Navy Secretary?
There isn't anyone more out of step with the primary electorate. Even assuming he could win the primary, he would have done nothing to turn out the base.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:40 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The appearance of post-convention conflict is greatly exaggerated by the nature of our current modes of discussion that value argument and make acceptance invisible. Short of not having a primary there will be a winner and losers. PUMAs may visibly grump, but the primary raises cash and helps define the platform, so it's a benefit overall.
Picking the perfect hypothetical candidate is a patzer's analysis, overanalyzing a single tactic from a position of multiple strategic weaknesses, none of which likely would have been decisive in isolation.
And an election isn't chess, its total war, a lesson we apparently forgot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:41 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Picking the perfect hypothetical candidate is a patzer's analysis, overanalyzing a single tactic from a position of multiple strategic weaknesses, none of which likely would have been decisive in isolation.
And an election isn't chess, its total war, a lesson we apparently forgot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:41 AM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is there a source for that three hundred thousand voters turned away in Wisconsin figure?
I looked, and apparently that figure (which I've seen elsewhere) comes from a story in April that claims "300K lack strict ID under new laws"; so, it may not be correct, and it's hard to find out how many people were prevented from voting, but for just one example, Waukesha County election supervisor says "turnout down 41K over 2012" and blames voter ID laws, so while it may not literally be "300k" it's a substantial number of voters (who are mostly black/Hispanic/elderly) who would've tipped the election the other way.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I were Hillary Clinton I'd be moving to France ASAP, or to some other place far beyond the reach of Trump's DoJ. He's been very clear that he intends to punish her for challenging h im.
Pair this with his criticism of how Obama announced military movement in fighting ISIS. He said several times that the best approach is to attack by surprise. It makes me wonder if he's just waiting to do it.
I worry for Hillary and for what a biased trial might do. He's been more than clear on his desired outcome.
posted by mochapickle at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pair this with his criticism of how Obama announced military movement in fighting ISIS. He said several times that the best approach is to attack by surprise. It makes me wonder if he's just waiting to do it.
I worry for Hillary and for what a biased trial might do. He's been more than clear on his desired outcome.
posted by mochapickle at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, based on those qualifications, Barack Obama in 2008 certainly wouldn't have qualified.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:31 PM on November 12 [+] [!]
So what's your point? You think there are more Obamas lurking around out there? Obama is not a great example to use as "Democrats who could have run if only Clinton got out of the way." He did his 8 years and he was a once-in-a-lifetime politician. There aren't more BHOs just timidly waiting to be asked to run for President. If there is another BHO unicorn, s/he won't be at all timid, s/he will shove aside whoever and run.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:31 PM on November 12 [+] [!]
So what's your point? You think there are more Obamas lurking around out there? Obama is not a great example to use as "Democrats who could have run if only Clinton got out of the way." He did his 8 years and he was a once-in-a-lifetime politician. There aren't more BHOs just timidly waiting to be asked to run for President. If there is another BHO unicorn, s/he won't be at all timid, s/he will shove aside whoever and run.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I were Hillary Clinton I'd be moving to France ASAP, or to some other place far beyond the reach of Trump's DoJ.
France? Bannon is working on that bit: "I answer yes to the invitation of Stephen Bannon, CEO of @realDonaldTrump presidential campaign, to work together."
posted by effbot at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
France? Bannon is working on that bit: "I answer yes to the invitation of Stephen Bannon, CEO of @realDonaldTrump presidential campaign, to work together."
posted by effbot at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think Jim Webb could have cleaned up.
If I wanted to vote for a Republican, I could've stayed a Republican.
posted by chris24 at 11:43 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
If I wanted to vote for a Republican, I could've stayed a Republican.
posted by chris24 at 11:43 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, a lot of the people who stayed home for Clinton would have stayed home for Webb, too.
posted by Coventry at 11:45 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Coventry at 11:45 AM on November 12, 2016
muddling the progressive message to appeal to a demographic that doesn't seem receptive to liberal solutions to societal problems.
They were receptive to Obama, Bill Clinton, LBJ, and FDR. Not all Trump supporters are created equal. Some are virulent racists, some are passive racists. These passive racists (white rust-belt working class males) can be persuaded by Progressives if they are given the least bit of attention. This double-down "fuck 'em" approach may net a presidential election at some point as the demographics change, but it will never make inroads at the state level or in Congress.
To not attempt to win back the most reluctant of Trump voters is to forsake the oppressed classes (POC, LGBT, Women, Disabled) on a practical level in order to support them in name only with #woke white liberal politics.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
They were receptive to Obama, Bill Clinton, LBJ, and FDR. Not all Trump supporters are created equal. Some are virulent racists, some are passive racists. These passive racists (white rust-belt working class males) can be persuaded by Progressives if they are given the least bit of attention. This double-down "fuck 'em" approach may net a presidential election at some point as the demographics change, but it will never make inroads at the state level or in Congress.
To not attempt to win back the most reluctant of Trump voters is to forsake the oppressed classes (POC, LGBT, Women, Disabled) on a practical level in order to support them in name only with #woke white liberal politics.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here's a poll for you:
posted by zachlipton at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
% of Americans “proud” about election outcome, per Gallup--@williamjordann
2008: 67%
2012: 48%
2016: 32%
posted by zachlipton at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
Clinton actually did increase Democratic turnout in Florida - phenomenally so - and still lost, so the strategy of focusing on the South at the expense of the North didn't work.
Right, it didn't work against this opponent, but Obama won Florida twice. With Cuban relations normalizing (for now...) and demographic trends favoring Democrats in the state, it should be a pretty easy get without some of the confounding factors that materialized in this election.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Right, it didn't work against this opponent, but Obama won Florida twice. With Cuban relations normalizing (for now...) and demographic trends favoring Democrats in the state, it should be a pretty easy get without some of the confounding factors that materialized in this election.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Plus, I love Joe, but he's a gaffe machine.
Yeah, I figure there's a good reason all the Biden memes end with Obama saying 'Joe no.'
posted by Mooski at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I figure there's a good reason all the Biden memes end with Obama saying 'Joe no.'
posted by Mooski at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
If I were Hillary Clinton I'd be moving to France ASAP, or to some other place far beyond the reach of Trump's DoJ.
She could stay in the Ecuadorian Embassy after Julian Assange moves into his new digs in the Trump Tower.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:49 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
She could stay in the Ecuadorian Embassy after Julian Assange moves into his new digs in the Trump Tower.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:49 AM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think "making government work for the 99%," and going after wealth inequality was a potent message that could have been Trump kryptonite. Hillary had adopted a lot of it at the convention and was doing great, but then she seemed to disappear.
Mayor (of Madison Wisconsin) Paul Soglin: Hillary Clinton never tried to win over the working class
Mayor (of Madison Wisconsin) Paul Soglin: Hillary Clinton never tried to win over the working class
That said, the first successful, though not intentional, effort to sabotage the Hillary Clinton presidency was orchestrated by Bill Clinton when he embraced the George H.W. Bush NAFTA treaty and steamrolled his own party.posted by Golden Eternity at 11:50 AM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I thought Corb was joking. Jim Webb for reals? LOLOLOLOLOLOL Jim "I killed a guy in Vietnam" Webb? I cannot stop laughing. Maybe if I squinted really hard I can almost imagine Martin O'Malley but Webb was DOA in the primaries.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:50 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:50 AM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Actually, I wonder if Assange may become an Ernst Rohm of sorts.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:51 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been seeing a lot of analysis of Trump's support as a national phenomenon and a lot of comments to the effect that populism has been becoming and international phenomenon, but haven't been able to find any analysis of how the US fits into that. Can anyone point me toward some articles or share their own thoughts with me?
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 11:52 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 11:52 AM on November 12, 2016
What about Bernie as VP? Could that have worked?
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:52 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:52 AM on November 12, 2016
But that's just way too simplistic; this shit is complicated. We need more data, which simply hasn't been collected yet, and people need to examine and cross-reference and compare and collate the data before any useful conclusions can be drawn. For all we know Trump's bump in black votes was mostly because a bunch of Southern black culturally-conservative evangelicals showed up in states where Clinton would never have won anyway.
My whole day outside of Metafilter has been going to town countering this 'Rust belt white poor, Hillary failed because she didn't talk to them properly' narrative with 'doesn't match with this data' what about this?, how do you factor this fact in there?, what about this group over here?' No, it's way more complicated then this. If you only focus on this your 'lessons learned' will be wrong and not useful. Bigger picture, broader picture and no sorry you just can't be all 'poor white poor people' and then we will win!! as an answer.
It is aggravating but because of having spent a zillion hours on Metafilter this election my brain is so full election knowledge that it's not difficult. It's really just opening the vaults and typing it all out.
I want to thank everyone here who has and is participating in these threads. It's been so useful in not just keeping track of things that went on in one spot but useful because of all of the discussion about what everything means.
posted by Jalliah at 11:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
My whole day outside of Metafilter has been going to town countering this 'Rust belt white poor, Hillary failed because she didn't talk to them properly' narrative with 'doesn't match with this data' what about this?, how do you factor this fact in there?, what about this group over here?' No, it's way more complicated then this. If you only focus on this your 'lessons learned' will be wrong and not useful. Bigger picture, broader picture and no sorry you just can't be all 'poor white poor people' and then we will win!! as an answer.
It is aggravating but because of having spent a zillion hours on Metafilter this election my brain is so full election knowledge that it's not difficult. It's really just opening the vaults and typing it all out.
I want to thank everyone here who has and is participating in these threads. It's been so useful in not just keeping track of things that went on in one spot but useful because of all of the discussion about what everything means.
posted by Jalliah at 11:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
O'Malley just did not have the necessary support. It was a little disheartening to watch his campaign scrambling to collect enough signatures to get on the Ohio primary ballot. It made me realize just how few adults are running things.
posted by Coventry at 11:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 11:54 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Jalliah, is there a good summary of why different messaging and more groundwork in the rustbelt wouldn't have worked somewhere?
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2016
What about Bernie as VP? Could that have worked?No. It wouldn't have constituted a credible commitment, on the part of the prospective Clinton administration, to the values which drove Bernie's appeal. He would have been in much the same sort of situation as Robert Reich experienced under Bill Clinton.
posted by Coventry at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
They were receptive to Obama, Bill Clinton, LBJ, and FDR. Not all Trump supporters are created equal. Some are virulent racists, some are passive racists. These passive racists (white rust-belt working class males) can be persuaded by Progressives if they are given the least bit of attention. This double-down "fuck 'em" approach may net a presidential election at some point as the demographics change, but it will never make inroads at the state level or in Congress.
To not attempt to win back the most reluctant of Trump voters is to forsake the oppressed classes (POC, LGBT, Women, Disabled) on a practical level in order to support them in name only with #woke white liberal politics.
Weakening the Republicans' majority with white people would be good, so it's important to peel off those most reluctant Trump voters, but it's even more important to get the abstainers, whether they abstained by choice or because the anti-democratic Republican Party disenfranchised them. Laying the emphasis on the former rather than the latter could lead to an inadvertent and terribly mistaken rightward shift.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
To not attempt to win back the most reluctant of Trump voters is to forsake the oppressed classes (POC, LGBT, Women, Disabled) on a practical level in order to support them in name only with #woke white liberal politics.
Weakening the Republicans' majority with white people would be good, so it's important to peel off those most reluctant Trump voters, but it's even more important to get the abstainers, whether they abstained by choice or because the anti-democratic Republican Party disenfranchised them. Laying the emphasis on the former rather than the latter could lead to an inadvertent and terribly mistaken rightward shift.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually, I wonder if Assange may become an Ernst Rohm of sorts.
Milo Yiannopolis has been auditioning for the job for years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Milo Yiannopolis has been auditioning for the job for years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Actually, I wonder if Assange may become an Ernst Rohm of sorts.
I can imagine Trump pardoning him and then inviting him as guest of honour to Edward Snowden's execution; and Assange (whose spirit animal seems to be the scorpion from the Aesopian fable of The Frog and the Scorpion) would probably greatly relish that.
posted by acb at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I can imagine Trump pardoning him and then inviting him as guest of honour to Edward Snowden's execution; and Assange (whose spirit animal seems to be the scorpion from the Aesopian fable of The Frog and the Scorpion) would probably greatly relish that.
posted by acb at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
And trump can rip off that snake thingy again! Awesome!
posted by valkane at 11:59 AM on November 12, 2016
posted by valkane at 11:59 AM on November 12, 2016
but it's even more important to get the abstainers
There's a certain natural amount of abstaining that's going to happen, and it's not simple to model. It's going to vary by state in the Presidential where the outcome isn't in question, and you have to figure out whether to count the protest votes as abstentions, or assign them to the major party candidates proportionally, or something. Many of the attempts to talk about "turnout" seem to be using deltas between 2008 and 2016 or 2012 and 2016, but once again, Barack Obamas don't grow on trees. If you're going to assert that abstainers were the problem here, you need to do more than cherry-pick a few states where Clinton failed to reach Obama's numbers. It may be possible that Obama's strength there is not reproducible.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a certain natural amount of abstaining that's going to happen, and it's not simple to model. It's going to vary by state in the Presidential where the outcome isn't in question, and you have to figure out whether to count the protest votes as abstentions, or assign them to the major party candidates proportionally, or something. Many of the attempts to talk about "turnout" seem to be using deltas between 2008 and 2016 or 2012 and 2016, but once again, Barack Obamas don't grow on trees. If you're going to assert that abstainers were the problem here, you need to do more than cherry-pick a few states where Clinton failed to reach Obama's numbers. It may be possible that Obama's strength there is not reproducible.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Weakening the Republicans' majority with white people would be good, so that most reluctant Trump voter is important to peel off, but it's even more important to get the abstainers, whether they abstained by choice or because the anti-democratic Republican Party disenfranchised them. Laying the emphasis on the former rather than the latter could lead to an inadvertent and terribly mistaken rightward shift.
The winning back of the abstainers may result in better odds for a presidential election but won't effect local and state races. Those abstainers voted during Obama's two terms and look what happened.
Also, that "mistaken rightward shift" doesn't have to happen. Democrats don't need to endorse bigotry to win back reluctant Trump voters, just pro-worker economic policies. This was Bill Clinton's coalition. If the working class is combined with the new POC demographic shifts, progressives would be unbeatable.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
The winning back of the abstainers may result in better odds for a presidential election but won't effect local and state races. Those abstainers voted during Obama's two terms and look what happened.
Also, that "mistaken rightward shift" doesn't have to happen. Democrats don't need to endorse bigotry to win back reluctant Trump voters, just pro-worker economic policies. This was Bill Clinton's coalition. If the working class is combined with the new POC demographic shifts, progressives would be unbeatable.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Jalliah, is there a good summary of why different messaging and more groundwork in the rustbelt wouldn't have worked somewhere?
Not specifically. I've been focusing on the need to bring up more questioning of many of the broader forces at play. I haven't been denying the Rust Belt factor only that it's more then just Hillary didn't talk to them properly.
Here's one response to it's just about the Rust Belt poor people:
And that's also still ignoring the data. This wasn't just about 'uneducated' rural voters nor just 'uneducated' voters or people that just don't have jobs. The median financial range of Trump voters is higher then Hillary voters. It's also not considering the part that the media played, nor the part the right and alt-right media played which is whole thesis in itself. Delve into that world and you'll find a worldview that is an entirely different reality. This is an election where large swaths of the right railed against even Fox news as a truthful news source. Fox news became too 'liberal' for many this election. It's not that solutions weren't talked about, or put forward but that they were not covered.
It's also ignoring the right-wing evangelical vote and the part it played. Why did they decide that this guy who is argubly the least Christian and the least moral President in the modern age and deem him not only okay but fulfilling 'will of God'. The Trump campaigned the same sorts of areas the Clinton campaign did. Metropolitan areas. It's also ignoring the reasons why people who as you say are 'uneducated' voted for someone offering them what is tantamount to an illusion. The jobs that they were promised? The jobs being brought back to like it was sometime in the past is an illusion. It can't happen.
By focusing just on this whole 'well the campaign just didn't speak to them properly' actually plays into the very same thing that you're accusing the Hillary campaign, treating them like they're children, and stupid without agency. If they had just known and were talked to more it wouldn't have happened. What about the talk from the GOP side? The demonizing that they did and have done for years? No fault there?
What about the part that wikileaks an outside group as well as an outside foreign power played with a concerted plan in spreading disinformation all over the internet and social media related to only one side?
But yes lets just focus on it's just the campaign's fault for not talking properly to the right people at the right time. My point is that the 'story' is so much more then just rural white voters not getting the proper information by a campaign. Ignoring everything else in figuring out the 'why' means getting the story wrong and the 'lessons learned' being useless going forward.
The question isn't just why did people not vote for Hillary but why did so many people decide that all of this 'dissatisfaction' whatever it might be, mean turning towards a demagogue with promises of archaic and authoritarian policies that will supposedly save them. Why are they okay with throwing a hell of a lot of vulnerable people and groups under the bus. Why are they okay with a guy being put into the most powerful position in the world who thinks it's great that he can just grab pussy when he wants and use his power to leer at women. Who is on record, several times sexualizing young girls. Why did they think it okay to vote for someone who chooses a running mate whose political career is full of trying to pass retrograde policies against women and LGBT. A vice president who believes things like electroshock conversion therapy will cure 'the gay'. Walls, anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, anti-60 years of foreign policies, anti-treaty obligations, anti-climate change, anti-trade and anti- on, and on.
I get it people 'want change' and this is the type of change they voted for.
Maya Angelou: “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”
posted by Jalliah at 12:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Not specifically. I've been focusing on the need to bring up more questioning of many of the broader forces at play. I haven't been denying the Rust Belt factor only that it's more then just Hillary didn't talk to them properly.
Here's one response to it's just about the Rust Belt poor people:
And that's also still ignoring the data. This wasn't just about 'uneducated' rural voters nor just 'uneducated' voters or people that just don't have jobs. The median financial range of Trump voters is higher then Hillary voters. It's also not considering the part that the media played, nor the part the right and alt-right media played which is whole thesis in itself. Delve into that world and you'll find a worldview that is an entirely different reality. This is an election where large swaths of the right railed against even Fox news as a truthful news source. Fox news became too 'liberal' for many this election. It's not that solutions weren't talked about, or put forward but that they were not covered.
It's also ignoring the right-wing evangelical vote and the part it played. Why did they decide that this guy who is argubly the least Christian and the least moral President in the modern age and deem him not only okay but fulfilling 'will of God'. The Trump campaigned the same sorts of areas the Clinton campaign did. Metropolitan areas. It's also ignoring the reasons why people who as you say are 'uneducated' voted for someone offering them what is tantamount to an illusion. The jobs that they were promised? The jobs being brought back to like it was sometime in the past is an illusion. It can't happen.
By focusing just on this whole 'well the campaign just didn't speak to them properly' actually plays into the very same thing that you're accusing the Hillary campaign, treating them like they're children, and stupid without agency. If they had just known and were talked to more it wouldn't have happened. What about the talk from the GOP side? The demonizing that they did and have done for years? No fault there?
What about the part that wikileaks an outside group as well as an outside foreign power played with a concerted plan in spreading disinformation all over the internet and social media related to only one side?
But yes lets just focus on it's just the campaign's fault for not talking properly to the right people at the right time. My point is that the 'story' is so much more then just rural white voters not getting the proper information by a campaign. Ignoring everything else in figuring out the 'why' means getting the story wrong and the 'lessons learned' being useless going forward.
The question isn't just why did people not vote for Hillary but why did so many people decide that all of this 'dissatisfaction' whatever it might be, mean turning towards a demagogue with promises of archaic and authoritarian policies that will supposedly save them. Why are they okay with throwing a hell of a lot of vulnerable people and groups under the bus. Why are they okay with a guy being put into the most powerful position in the world who thinks it's great that he can just grab pussy when he wants and use his power to leer at women. Who is on record, several times sexualizing young girls. Why did they think it okay to vote for someone who chooses a running mate whose political career is full of trying to pass retrograde policies against women and LGBT. A vice president who believes things like electroshock conversion therapy will cure 'the gay'. Walls, anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, anti-60 years of foreign policies, anti-treaty obligations, anti-climate change, anti-trade and anti- on, and on.
I get it people 'want change' and this is the type of change they voted for.
Maya Angelou: “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”
posted by Jalliah at 12:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
But there is real tension between the "white working class", as it's so often referenced, and identity politics. There's no easy way to just say woo the white guys and they'll come in and party with the LGBT crowd, fight for transgender rights and root for immigrant families and Muslims without taking that into account and also potentially alienating all the PoC and others who have built the coalition now being asked to move over for the worried white guy again.
Of course Sanders would have gone after those workers because that's his main focus, and that's great, we need progressive economic vision, but it isn't a panacea, there's a lot more involved than just adding a plank and a rally or two in white cities. Clinton's method wasn't Sanders' because she isn't Sanders, but her message was equally important. So the next candidate has to maintain the progressive ideal of inclusiveness and find new ways to draw more into the party. Some of that will be economic arguments, but much of it will rely on the rest of us making these white stay at homes more comfortable with progress being defined not wholly on their terms.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:13 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Of course Sanders would have gone after those workers because that's his main focus, and that's great, we need progressive economic vision, but it isn't a panacea, there's a lot more involved than just adding a plank and a rally or two in white cities. Clinton's method wasn't Sanders' because she isn't Sanders, but her message was equally important. So the next candidate has to maintain the progressive ideal of inclusiveness and find new ways to draw more into the party. Some of that will be economic arguments, but much of it will rely on the rest of us making these white stay at homes more comfortable with progress being defined not wholly on their terms.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:13 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
If the working class is combined with the new POC demographic shifts
I guess you mean "white working class"? Since the working class includes people who aren't white.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
I guess you mean "white working class"? Since the working class includes people who aren't white.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
One thing that pissed me off this election was all the hagiographic profiles of Trump supporters, while there was hardly any of Clinton's and basically none of the possible victims a Trump presidency. I'm starting work on a photographic series to put a face on those who will likely suffer or have suffered because of his impending presidency. So if you or someone you know has a serious pre-existing condition and are dependent on Obamacare for treatment, are a DREAMer worried about deportation, are a Muslim or LGBTQ person deep in a red state, or whatever the situation, and would be willing to sit for a portrait and tell me your story, I'd love to talk to you about it.
I'm in NYC, but would be willing to travel to you if I can figure it out. My profile has a link to my website so you can see my work. Please memail or email from my info on my site if you might be willing. I just want to help show the world the very real and human consequences this man has.
* And please delete this mods if it's inappropriate.
posted by chris24 at 12:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [50 favorites]
I'm in NYC, but would be willing to travel to you if I can figure it out. My profile has a link to my website so you can see my work. Please memail or email from my info on my site if you might be willing. I just want to help show the world the very real and human consequences this man has.
* And please delete this mods if it's inappropriate.
posted by chris24 at 12:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [50 favorites]
I don't understand why saying that DNC's message needs to more pro-union to win over some working-class rust belt whites is a controversial opinion. The DNC does not have to back down on any of their socially progressive ideals. They just have to add some focus on economically progressive ideals as a pragmatic measure to gain power in U.S. electoral politics.
The primary source of their anger is economic. Republicans and Trump have convince them to blame immigrants/poc/women etc. We just need to convince them to blame rich white bankers instead.
To avoid just repeating myself, I'm going to bow out of this discussion.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
The primary source of their anger is economic. Republicans and Trump have convince them to blame immigrants/poc/women etc. We just need to convince them to blame rich white bankers instead.
To avoid just repeating myself, I'm going to bow out of this discussion.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Democrats don't need to endorse bigotry to win back reluctant Trump voters, just pro-worker economic policies. This was Bill Clinton's coalition. If the working class is combined with the new POC demographic shifts, progressives would be unbeatable.
Higher minimum wage. Health coverage. Better worker protection, child care, paid leave. Whose platform had those policies?
The American worker is the American consumer. The American consumer mostly likes cheap shit because the American worker has stagnant wages, and cheap shit mostly can't be made in the US by a workforce paid living wages.[*] The average American consumer complains about "made in China" but buys made-in-China. The American consumer mostly likes the dollar menu or the Grand Slam and the subservient waitperson who relies on tips.
Think of the Portlandia or Brooklyn jokes about liberal white hipsters buying expensive produce from local farmers or $100+ jeans made with denim from the historic White Oak Cone Mills factory in Greensboro, NC.
Square that circle.
[*] The NYT piece on the Carrier plant in Indiana noted that it was profitable, but not profitable enough for the corporate leadership, who, of course, have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and not their workers.
posted by holgate at 12:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Higher minimum wage. Health coverage. Better worker protection, child care, paid leave. Whose platform had those policies?
The American worker is the American consumer. The American consumer mostly likes cheap shit because the American worker has stagnant wages, and cheap shit mostly can't be made in the US by a workforce paid living wages.[*] The average American consumer complains about "made in China" but buys made-in-China. The American consumer mostly likes the dollar menu or the Grand Slam and the subservient waitperson who relies on tips.
Think of the Portlandia or Brooklyn jokes about liberal white hipsters buying expensive produce from local farmers or $100+ jeans made with denim from the historic White Oak Cone Mills factory in Greensboro, NC.
Square that circle.
[*] The NYT piece on the Carrier plant in Indiana noted that it was profitable, but not profitable enough for the corporate leadership, who, of course, have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and not their workers.
posted by holgate at 12:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Missed so many great comments.
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites
I am a white man. I sincerely hope the Democratic party does not go down the road of appeasement for so many reasons. But strategically it's suicide. If the Democrats do anything other than fully resist this racist, misogynistic, despicable adminstration and all the Republican bullshit that flows from it they might find a few of those white working class voters in the rust belt that want to think of themselves as "better people". But this action would destroy their historic support with African Americans and create an opening for Republicans to step in with Latinx and all the other dispossessed groups. It would be the dumbest electoral move in history and might guarantee conservative control of the country for an extra 10 years.
The end of the white man is coming. Donald Trump is the death knell. And just like in any horror movie the monster is going to thrash around and destroy the lives of a good many innocent people before he is finally beaten. What we need to do is make some wooden stakes and be prepared to stab all this privilege through the fucking heart at our next opportunity.
posted by Glibpaxman at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
I cannot tell you how gutted I have been these past days to watch white left men who I thought were my allies start getting all mealy-mouthed about how "we" have to make an "inclusive" politics for racist whites
I am a white man. I sincerely hope the Democratic party does not go down the road of appeasement for so many reasons. But strategically it's suicide. If the Democrats do anything other than fully resist this racist, misogynistic, despicable adminstration and all the Republican bullshit that flows from it they might find a few of those white working class voters in the rust belt that want to think of themselves as "better people". But this action would destroy their historic support with African Americans and create an opening for Republicans to step in with Latinx and all the other dispossessed groups. It would be the dumbest electoral move in history and might guarantee conservative control of the country for an extra 10 years.
The end of the white man is coming. Donald Trump is the death knell. And just like in any horror movie the monster is going to thrash around and destroy the lives of a good many innocent people before he is finally beaten. What we need to do is make some wooden stakes and be prepared to stab all this privilege through the fucking heart at our next opportunity.
posted by Glibpaxman at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
These passive racists (white rust-belt working class males) can be persuaded by Progressives if they are given the least bit of attention.
Time and time and time again, in this race and previously, all the way back to the Reagan years, Democrats have put forward plans and policies that will help these white rust-belters make their dollars go further, provide and strengthen the safety net for when or if they get in dire straits, allow for better lives for their children, on and on and on. I know, because I'm a damn white rust-belt working-class male - even though I have a bachelor's degree, my income and job duties are far more "working-class" than "white collar." How in the hell is that not "attention?"
What the Dems haven't done is outright fucking LIE to them, telling them "You will magically get and keep everything you want" and/or "It's the fault of POC/women/queers/foreigners that you don't have everything you could ever want." That's what Republicans and conservatives have been doing for decades.
There's a point at which the responsibility for believing simple but pleasant lies over actual facts and concrete policies and plans rests on the head of the believer. And here we are.
I don't understand why saying that DNC's message needs to more pro-union to win over some working-class rust belt whites is a controversial opinion.
Because 1) thanks to decades of conservative cultural messaging and political action, a huge number of white rust-belt working class are not union. Unions are irrelevant to them. If anything, many actually resent the unions because they get "paid a lot of money to do nothing" - c.f. every single time a white male drives by a road construction site. And 2) you are ignoring the extent to which this "passive" racism (& sexism) colors their view of what's "fair" and how to fix their feelings of economic instability.
posted by soundguy99 at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [50 favorites]
Time and time and time again, in this race and previously, all the way back to the Reagan years, Democrats have put forward plans and policies that will help these white rust-belters make their dollars go further, provide and strengthen the safety net for when or if they get in dire straits, allow for better lives for their children, on and on and on. I know, because I'm a damn white rust-belt working-class male - even though I have a bachelor's degree, my income and job duties are far more "working-class" than "white collar." How in the hell is that not "attention?"
What the Dems haven't done is outright fucking LIE to them, telling them "You will magically get and keep everything you want" and/or "It's the fault of POC/women/queers/foreigners that you don't have everything you could ever want." That's what Republicans and conservatives have been doing for decades.
There's a point at which the responsibility for believing simple but pleasant lies over actual facts and concrete policies and plans rests on the head of the believer. And here we are.
I don't understand why saying that DNC's message needs to more pro-union to win over some working-class rust belt whites is a controversial opinion.
Because 1) thanks to decades of conservative cultural messaging and political action, a huge number of white rust-belt working class are not union. Unions are irrelevant to them. If anything, many actually resent the unions because they get "paid a lot of money to do nothing" - c.f. every single time a white male drives by a road construction site. And 2) you are ignoring the extent to which this "passive" racism (& sexism) colors their view of what's "fair" and how to fix their feelings of economic instability.
posted by soundguy99 at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [50 favorites]
I'll suggest that again that much of this conversation about whether it's possible to build coalitions with working-class whites would be answered by just reading Barber, who actually has experience building working fusion coalitions on issues such as unionization, poverty, voting rights, and toxic waste dumping.
Also, I think that there's a lot of weird essentialism going on behind the "Trump vote" and the "stay-at-home vote" which ignores how Trump was, in part, the product of eight years of aggressive astroturfing and FUD.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also, I think that there's a lot of weird essentialism going on behind the "Trump vote" and the "stay-at-home vote" which ignores how Trump was, in part, the product of eight years of aggressive astroturfing and FUD.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
What the Dems haven't done is outright fucking LIE to them, telling them "You will magically get and keep everything you want"
All rhetoric, all branding, all vision stuff, to some extent, is a lie. That's what idealism is. The last winning Democratic campaign with a new presidential candidate was about "hope" and "change", as vague as that was. The Clinton campaign's branding lacked that pithiness, and that dreaminess.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
All rhetoric, all branding, all vision stuff, to some extent, is a lie. That's what idealism is. The last winning Democratic campaign with a new presidential candidate was about "hope" and "change", as vague as that was. The Clinton campaign's branding lacked that pithiness, and that dreaminess.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
@docrocktex26:
Folk don't understand that HRC was more threatening to White supremacy than PBO was b/c she called it out explicitly as a White person.
posted by chris24 at 1:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [47 favorites]
Folk don't understand that HRC was more threatening to White supremacy than PBO was b/c she called it out explicitly as a White person.
posted by chris24 at 1:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [47 favorites]
I'm looking forward and the only looking backwards I'm doing right now is trying to find historical precedents to help me contextualize this current moment.
Right now I'm at Reagan and the end of the Weimar Republic as two periods to look towards to help me get a better idea of how I can learn and better prepare for what may come.
Everything we believe we understand about our social and political landscapes are suspect right now.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Right now I'm at Reagan and the end of the Weimar Republic as two periods to look towards to help me get a better idea of how I can learn and better prepare for what may come.
Everything we believe we understand about our social and political landscapes are suspect right now.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Clinton campaign's branding lacked that pithiness, and that dreaminess.The campaign was also severely harmed by the fact that it was explicitly promising more of what had been marketed as "Hope" and "Change" 8 years ago, and not many were enthusiastic about the prospect.
posted by Coventry at 1:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The lines never even touch in Huffpollster. And PEC had a Clinton win at like 99% probability, based on polls. Were the polls really no wronger than normal?
They weren't. Huffpollster was to me obvious partisan hackery, and it should have been so to others. I received a lot of pushback whenever I pointed that out. That's what people mean when they say a lot of people were suffering from heavy amounts of confirmation bias.
People wanted Huffpollster to be right and so it had to be right.
PEC is a different thing. 538 talked about this a bunch but it has to do with polling error in states being correlated. I don't have the background to say whether or not the state polling errors were more or less or equally wrong compared to the usual year. But the national polling error was almost exactly equal to the median national polling error over the last 50 years, and was less wrong than in 2012. It's just that the error favored Obama in 2012 and he was going to win anyway so nobody cared.
But, yeah, Huffpollster was cooking the numbers to come up with a bigger Clinton advantage than was warranted.
posted by Justinian at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
They weren't. Huffpollster was to me obvious partisan hackery, and it should have been so to others. I received a lot of pushback whenever I pointed that out. That's what people mean when they say a lot of people were suffering from heavy amounts of confirmation bias.
People wanted Huffpollster to be right and so it had to be right.
PEC is a different thing. 538 talked about this a bunch but it has to do with polling error in states being correlated. I don't have the background to say whether or not the state polling errors were more or less or equally wrong compared to the usual year. But the national polling error was almost exactly equal to the median national polling error over the last 50 years, and was less wrong than in 2012. It's just that the error favored Obama in 2012 and he was going to win anyway so nobody cared.
But, yeah, Huffpollster was cooking the numbers to come up with a bigger Clinton advantage than was warranted.
posted by Justinian at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Michael Moore Blasts Donald Trump as 'Illegitimate President' as He Tours Trump Tower
According to a pool report, Moore showed up at the 58-story skyscraper in midtown Manhattan this afternoon and walked into the building, which is open to the public. He had a safety pin fastened to his clothing -- a gesture some people are taking to show solidarity for minority groups that have been maligned by Trump.posted by tonycpsu at 1:22 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
As he toured the landmark Fifth Avenue skyscraper with a slew of reporters, Moore said Trump "does not have the vote of the people" because claimed victory in the electoral college but did not win the popular vote.
Back in the primaries I had read an article on America's "Coolest Populist," Mayor John Fetterman of Braddock, PA.
He endorsed Sanders in the primary, and then campaigned for Clinton in the general, imploring third party voters to vote for Clinton.
He endorsed Sanders in the primary, and then campaigned for Clinton in the general, imploring third party voters to vote for Clinton.
SK: What is the difference in politics between “evolution” and “revolution?” What’s more valuable: passion and revolution, or incrementalism, evolution, and pragmatism?posted by audi alteram partem at 1:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
JF: Each one is useful in a particular way. Revolution can be just as damaging for progressive causes as the Bush presidency was. Obama’s two terms were about bringing us back from that disaster. In terms of revolution, be careful what you ask for. Because it can go your way or it can go the other way. What I am confident of is that we can’t say if it’s not Bernie, then to hell with it, because like I said, it gets back to the Bush versus Gore kind of thing.
The primary source of their anger is economic. Republicans and Trump have convince them to blame immigrants/poc/women etc.
If you seriously believe that, please Google "women in STEM fields" or "Silicon Valley boyzone" or "blackface at private university fraternities" or "neoconservative pundit Islamophobia" and then talk to me about how white-guy bigotry is driven by economic suffering.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [43 favorites]
If you seriously believe that, please Google "women in STEM fields" or "Silicon Valley boyzone" or "blackface at private university fraternities" or "neoconservative pundit Islamophobia" and then talk to me about how white-guy bigotry is driven by economic suffering.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [43 favorites]
Until we have automatic voter registration at age 18, this is going to keep happening
posted by waitangi at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by waitangi at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you seriously believe that
i think you can believe both that there is a lot of sexism in society today and that there is an economic component to some of the support for trump that the democratic party could make a play for.
posted by andrewcooke at 1:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
i think you can believe both that there is a lot of sexism in society today and that there is an economic component to some of the support for trump that the democratic party could make a play for.
posted by andrewcooke at 1:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
i think you can believe both that there is a lot of sexism in society today and that there is an economic component to some of the support for trump that the democratic party could make a play for.
The original comment said that economic anxiety was the "primary" source. We can agree that it's a source without uncritically accepting that it's the primary source.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
The original comment said that economic anxiety was the "primary" source. We can agree that it's a source without uncritically accepting that it's the primary source.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Democratic platform is obviously better for those Trump supporters. What exactly do people mean when they say the Democratic party should make a bigger play for those people? Change the platform to something worse for them but that plays better? Lie to them? What?
My feeling is that what some people mean is that the Democrats should spend less time on issues important to African Americans and Latinos in order to make those non-college white voters feel like they are the most people type of people. Which is what Trump did.
posted by Justinian at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [39 favorites]
My feeling is that what some people mean is that the Democrats should spend less time on issues important to African Americans and Latinos in order to make those non-college white voters feel like they are the most people type of people. Which is what Trump did.
posted by Justinian at 1:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [39 favorites]
One of the problems in these discussions is that smart people who think these things are important assume everyone else has similar motivations. Most people don't think it's that important, don't really care, and don't know much about any of it (which is why I don't support mandatory voting). Obama got some of those people to show up, Trump got some of those people to show up. But they didn't really change.
A lot of arguments approach this from "what did Clinton do to make them stay home?" Nothing, they weren't showing up for anyone. I would bet there are a sizable number who's vote for Obama will be their only vote, and the same for Trump.
posted by bongo_x at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
A lot of arguments approach this from "what did Clinton do to make them stay home?" Nothing, they weren't showing up for anyone. I would bet there are a sizable number who's vote for Obama will be their only vote, and the same for Trump.
posted by bongo_x at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Voters often don't actually read party platforms. It's about the overall messaging, the narrative and the tone. Clinton's campaign definitely didn't seem to make economic populism its big talking point, even after Sanders acted as a surrogate.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 1:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
See, to me that's basically saying "make non-college white voters feel like they're the most important people".
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
i think you can believe both that there is a lot of sexism in society today and that there is an economic component to some of the support for trump that the democratic party could make a play for.
Granted. I do question the contention, though, that white people (or at least the middle-class Rust Belt white people in my area) ever have to be persuaded very hard to blame immigrants, foreigners, people of color, or women for their problems. Trump didn't have to convince anyone; he just had to give them an opportunity and the approval to do it aloud in public with impunity.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Granted. I do question the contention, though, that white people (or at least the middle-class Rust Belt white people in my area) ever have to be persuaded very hard to blame immigrants, foreigners, people of color, or women for their problems. Trump didn't have to convince anyone; he just had to give them an opportunity and the approval to do it aloud in public with impunity.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Trump didn't have to convince anyone; he just had to give them an opportunity and the approval to do it aloud in public with impunity.
And as we see now with all of these bigots coming out of the woodwork with all the spray-painting and letters from high schoolers to their fucking teachers, they aren't going to stop at just a single vote.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:48 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
And as we see now with all of these bigots coming out of the woodwork with all the spray-painting and letters from high schoolers to their fucking teachers, they aren't going to stop at just a single vote.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:48 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think "making government work for the 99%," and going after wealth inequality was a potent message that could have been Trump kryptonite. Hillary had adopted a lot of it at the convention and was doing great, but then she seemed to disappear.
I don't know if it's accurate, but Jon Favreau of Keepin' It 1600 ascribes this at least in part to the fact that Hillary's positive substantive messaging didn't get remotely the same media attention as Sideshow Don's Cavalcade of Mania. She had to go after him to be seen and heard, because everyone loves to watch a loud ugly trainwreck. Which immediately turned the narrative to "hostile divisive campaign, they're both so mean, ugh, equally bad."
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [29 favorites]
I don't know if it's accurate, but Jon Favreau of Keepin' It 1600 ascribes this at least in part to the fact that Hillary's positive substantive messaging didn't get remotely the same media attention as Sideshow Don's Cavalcade of Mania. She had to go after him to be seen and heard, because everyone loves to watch a loud ugly trainwreck. Which immediately turned the narrative to "hostile divisive campaign, they're both so mean, ugh, equally bad."
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [29 favorites]
I'd respect Michael More further if he said something like *so our choice is to deem this electoral choice as illegitimate and install a leader through a military coup. granted, this would mean throwing hundreds of years of tradition of peaceful transition out the window. we'd have civil war so get ready to kill those on the other side and get ready for them to kill you. this is a better alternative to four years of this unmitigated insanity*
I'd still disagree with him, I mean, maybe ten years out from this when we're looking a nuclear missile craters in the ME and North Korea Michael Moore will look like a true visionary, but for right now I'd say that he needs to shut the fuck up a little bit.
posted by angrycat at 1:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd still disagree with him, I mean, maybe ten years out from this when we're looking a nuclear missile craters in the ME and North Korea Michael Moore will look like a true visionary, but for right now I'd say that he needs to shut the fuck up a little bit.
posted by angrycat at 1:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I dunno, why do we have to wait for the fascists to herd people into camps and invade Canada before maybe, just maybe, we consider that peacefully transitioning to fascism might not be the best way forward?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
No, that's why I would respect the argument: Bloodshed now to prevent more later over: Let's say the election should be tossed out the window based on the popular vote. That Trump is an unprecedented menace that requires unprecedented responses is one thing; to be like *but the popular vote* when the fact that Trump's loss of the popular vote is not what makes him so dangerous, that's what I'm giving some serious side-eye to.
posted by angrycat at 2:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 2:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
See, to me that's basically saying "make non-college white voters feel like they're STILL the most important people". (which is what the Republicans do, while their Wall Street pals and financiers screw them over)
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean I'd be giving serious side-eye to the notion of civil war, don't get me wrong. But I'm a little sensitive to people selling voters on bullshit. Moore's way requires violence and is basically setting a fire to prevent a worse one, and he should be honest about that.
posted by angrycat at 2:05 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 2:05 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not only in America, but across the democratic world, liberals and leftists are becoming used to waking up in the early hours and learning that they have lost. Again. They did not expect the Conservatives to win the British general election or the British to vote to leave the EU. They didn’t see Trump coming. They won’t see Le Pen coming.Nick Cohen, If liberals want to stop the right winning, we must change, The Guardian (12 November 2016).
[...]
To suffer such calamitous defeats and not feel the need to change is to behave as irresponsibly as the US Democratic party. It is a myth that Trump and Brexit won because of overwhelming working-class support. Nevertheless, they could win only because a large chunk of the white working class moved rightwards. Debates about how to lure them back ought to reveal the difference between arguing with and arguing against your fellow citizens, which most middle-class leftists have not even begun to think about.
You can only argue against committed supporters of Trump. If they believe all Mexicans are rapists and Muslims terrorists, you cannot compromise without betraying your principles. Fair enough. But before you become self-righteous you must accept that the dominant faction on the western left uses language just as suggestive of collective punishment when they talk about their own white working class. Imagine how it must feel for a worker in Bruce Springsteen’s Youngstown to hear college-educated liberals condemn “white privilege” when he has a shit job and a miserable life.
[...]
For too many in the poor neighbourhoods of the west, middle-class liberals have become like their bosses at work. They tell you what you can and can’t think. They warn that you must accept their superiority and you will be in no end of trouble if you do not.
posted by Sonny Jim at 2:21 PM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
Bernie's message to go after wallstreet and millionayes and billionayes and make government work for the 99% was quite potent in many of these areas. In my opinion it was not just bullshit either. There are big problems there to fix. His "political revolution" invigorated young people and perhaps helped create a powerful movement to counter Trumplandia and get more volunteers out knocking on doors.
I think the Dems may have owed it to some of these people to look more closely at structural changes in the economy and trade deals and see what more can be done to create higher paying jobs in these areas.
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the Dems may have owed it to some of these people to look more closely at structural changes in the economy and trade deals and see what more can be done to create higher paying jobs in these areas.
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Digby: Confessions of the media overlords
posted by tonycpsu at 2:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 2:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
@Redistrict:
Donald Trump's share of the popular vote just fell to 47.1%, which puts him below Mitt Romney's 47.2% in '12: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19
posted by chris24 at 2:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Donald Trump's share of the popular vote just fell to 47.1%, which puts him below Mitt Romney's 47.2% in '12: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19
posted by chris24 at 2:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Putin spokesman: Trump should urge NATO to withdraw forces from Russian border
At least Trump is going to make one country great again.
posted by bluecore at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
At least Trump is going to make one country great again.
posted by bluecore at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'd like to see specifically how much lower income white Democratic voters dropped in the midwest and rustbelt from 2008 until 2016.
@oritperlov: I know it's been popular to point that 'anyone under $50k voted for Hillary' (guilty) but check this breakdown via WashPo.posted by Golden Eternity at 2:38 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, Darrell Issa might lose? Still? At least there is a another ray of sunshine in the overwhelming darkness.
What's the total D gain in the House right now? I realize they are gaining from "useless minority" to "useless slightly less of a minority" but every bit counts going forward.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
What's the total D gain in the House right now? I realize they are gaining from "useless minority" to "useless slightly less of a minority" but every bit counts going forward.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Nate Silver sums up the response to their model in this election:
A—There's a 30% chance of an earthquakeposted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
B—LOL ur crazy no way it's that high
{{earthquake}}
B—Idiot! You said a 70% chance of no earthquake
a large chunk of the white working class moved rightwards.
According to the New York Times exit poll, Trump’s vote only increased 1% among white voters compared to Romney.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2016
According to the New York Times exit poll, Trump’s vote only increased 1% among white voters compared to Romney.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2016
I didn't see this posted yet. Sorry if I overlooked it.
The Electoral College Was Designed to Prevent Trump. You Can Make This Happen. (HuffPo)
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Electoral College Was Designed to Prevent Trump. You Can Make This Happen. (HuffPo)
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
That Trump is an unprecedented menace that requires unprecedented responses is one thing; to be like *but the popular vote* when the fact that Trump's loss of the popular vote is not what makes him so dangerous, that's what I'm giving some serious side-eye to.
Donald Trump spent the last weeks of the election intimating that the system was rigged and that he would "keep us in suspense" about whether or not he would accept the results of the election. He gleefully cheered violence against people who protested at his rallies and promised to jail his general election opponent.
And he ran as the nominee for a political party that has through one means or another rejected the popular will in quite literally every single Presidential contest of the last 20-odd years. They sought to impeach Bill Clinton; they used the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election; and they spent six of the last eight years questioning Obama's citizenship and legitimacy while obstructing everything from Supreme Court justices to lower court appointments to the very operation of the federal government itself. They have gerrymandered House districts such that they control that chamber despite *consistently* receiving fewer total votes for the House in many states.
If you spend that amount of time and resources delegitimating the electoral process, essentially normalizing the idea that a result you don't like doesn't count, then you will eventually succeed in convincing the other side, too.
posted by kewb at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [36 favorites]
Donald Trump spent the last weeks of the election intimating that the system was rigged and that he would "keep us in suspense" about whether or not he would accept the results of the election. He gleefully cheered violence against people who protested at his rallies and promised to jail his general election opponent.
And he ran as the nominee for a political party that has through one means or another rejected the popular will in quite literally every single Presidential contest of the last 20-odd years. They sought to impeach Bill Clinton; they used the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election; and they spent six of the last eight years questioning Obama's citizenship and legitimacy while obstructing everything from Supreme Court justices to lower court appointments to the very operation of the federal government itself. They have gerrymandered House districts such that they control that chamber despite *consistently* receiving fewer total votes for the House in many states.
If you spend that amount of time and resources delegitimating the electoral process, essentially normalizing the idea that a result you don't like doesn't count, then you will eventually succeed in convincing the other side, too.
posted by kewb at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [36 favorites]
I think you have to focus on white working class in the rustbelt and midwest areas where Dems used to have a solid majority and go back further in time. This trend probably started twenty-five years ago.
The advertising decisions that helped doom Hillary Clinton
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The advertising decisions that helped doom Hillary Clinton
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Electoral College Was Designed to Prevent Trump. You Can Make This Happen. (HuffPo)
Good luck with that. The Electoral College was designed to prevent Trump but we changed how it functions to eliminate that possibility. Now it's the worst of both worlds: Too democratic to prevent Trump through the electors being appointed party elder types who might be inclined to vote their conscience, not democratic enough to prevent Trump by representing the actual will of the popular vote.
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Good luck with that. The Electoral College was designed to prevent Trump but we changed how it functions to eliminate that possibility. Now it's the worst of both worlds: Too democratic to prevent Trump through the electors being appointed party elder types who might be inclined to vote their conscience, not democratic enough to prevent Trump by representing the actual will of the popular vote.
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
What I learned is that the electoral college, for whatever counter balance it was supposed to provide between rural and urban electorates, has now come to be the "whiteness weighted differential" in federal elections.
Knowing that means fuck all to me right now, but that's the quaint encapsulation I gleaned from this election season.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Knowing that means fuck all to me right now, but that's the quaint encapsulation I gleaned from this election season.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
According to the New York Times exit poll, Trump’s vote only increased 1% among white voters compared to Romney.
Exit polls are very sketchy. Every analysis I've seen of the actual county by county results show him overperforming in rural and exurban counties over Romney in the actual vote tallies.
posted by chris24 at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Exit polls are very sketchy. Every analysis I've seen of the actual county by county results show him overperforming in rural and exurban counties over Romney in the actual vote tallies.
posted by chris24 at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The exit polls appear to understate Trump's support among white voters in rural and exurban counties while overstating his Latino support everywhere but maybe Florida.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's still worth a hail marry shot with the EC. Liberal democracy itself may be at stake.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Examples.
NYT: How Trump Reshaped the Election Map
Trump’s Rick Scott strategy beat Clinton’s Obama strategy in Florida
The Atlantic: How Trump Won: The Republican nominee put together a coalition of non-college-educated, non-urban voters—and they turned out for him with tremendous enthusiasm
posted by chris24 at 3:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
NYT: How Trump Reshaped the Election Map
Trump’s Rick Scott strategy beat Clinton’s Obama strategy in Florida
The Atlantic: How Trump Won: The Republican nominee put together a coalition of non-college-educated, non-urban voters—and they turned out for him with tremendous enthusiasm
posted by chris24 at 3:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sorry if this was posted already - I did a quick search and didn't see it - but this was in today's NY Times: Reports of Bias-Based Attacks on Rise Since Election. Note the photo they chose to accompany it. I am livid.
posted by Mchelly at 3:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 3:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
Note the photo they chose to accompany it. I am livid.
Makes sense for an America where accusing someone of racism is worse than actual racism.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Makes sense for an America where accusing someone of racism is worse than actual racism.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Sorry if this was posted already - I did a quick search and didn't see it - but this was in today's NY Times: Reports of Bias-Based Attacks on Rise Since Election
There are hundreds if not thousands of these, from all over the country, in red states and blue states; Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, sexual assault, racism; groups of men taunting women with "grab her by the pussy", swastikas painted on schools, "Whites Only" graffiti in bathrooms, cries of "go back to Mexico you fat spic" directed at people on the street...Trump-supporting bigots have taken his victory as validation of their opinions and license for this behaviour. Shaun King of the NY Daily News is highlighting a lot of this on Twitter.
All of you people saying "it'll be okay, we survived Reagan/Nixon/whatever" need to wake the fuck up.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
There are hundreds if not thousands of these, from all over the country, in red states and blue states; Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, sexual assault, racism; groups of men taunting women with "grab her by the pussy", swastikas painted on schools, "Whites Only" graffiti in bathrooms, cries of "go back to Mexico you fat spic" directed at people on the street...Trump-supporting bigots have taken his victory as validation of their opinions and license for this behaviour. Shaun King of the NY Daily News is highlighting a lot of this on Twitter.
All of you people saying "it'll be okay, we survived Reagan/Nixon/whatever" need to wake the fuck up.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
It's not okay. Nothing about this is remotely okay.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:17 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:17 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
via Cleve Jones, the creator of the AIDS Memorial Quilt: The next person to tell me "we survived" Reagan and Bush is going to get slapped. YOU survived. Too many of my friends did not. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people did not survive the wars they waged. Trump supporters infuriate me, smug white liberals do too. Wake up, this shit is real. Organize. Resist. Read your f**king history.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [41 favorites]
Yeah I mean somebody correct me if I'm biased here but that NYT bias piece was like *angry leftist graffiti* tale of one Trump asshole, one leftist asshole, one Trump asshole.
And then it was like, *yeah everybody's angry but here's really who's getting targeted for intimidation non Trumpers*
I am tired of these motherfucking fair and balanced motherfuckers in my motherfucking political discourse
posted by angrycat at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
And then it was like, *yeah everybody's angry but here's really who's getting targeted for intimidation non Trumpers*
I am tired of these motherfucking fair and balanced motherfuckers in my motherfucking political discourse
posted by angrycat at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wait, Darrell Issa might lose?
He's still ahead 51% to 49% (about 4000 out of 200,000 votes) with "100% of precincts counted". But the "Unprocessed Ballots" report as of close-of-business Thursday shows over 4 million Vote-By-Mail and Provisional ballots outstanding in the state. Issa's district includes parts of Orange County (where he's way ahead) and San Diego County (where Democrat Doug Applegate is less-way-ahead) and the Unprocessed report shows 400K ballots in Orange and San Diego is one of two counties "Pending Submission". So, we officially have no idea but Issa the Arsonist still is ahead, and if the Republicans did the same kind of Nursing Home Absentee Voter fraud I witnessed in L.A. County in 1972, he's pretty safe.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
He's still ahead 51% to 49% (about 4000 out of 200,000 votes) with "100% of precincts counted". But the "Unprocessed Ballots" report as of close-of-business Thursday shows over 4 million Vote-By-Mail and Provisional ballots outstanding in the state. Issa's district includes parts of Orange County (where he's way ahead) and San Diego County (where Democrat Doug Applegate is less-way-ahead) and the Unprocessed report shows 400K ballots in Orange and San Diego is one of two counties "Pending Submission". So, we officially have no idea but Issa the Arsonist still is ahead, and if the Republicans did the same kind of Nursing Home Absentee Voter fraud I witnessed in L.A. County in 1972, he's pretty safe.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Both are bad"
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best case scenario is we're in for four more years of this election season, four years solid, of Trump traveling America talking murder at rally after rally while the old gang from the Bush Administration robs us all blind and does what they can do to make sure the planet's climate becomes unlivable.
(did you know he's going to keep doing rallies? He's going to keep doing rallies).
BEST case scenario. Is four more years of the 2016 Presidential election.
And this only happens if there's some political pressure from inside D.C. against Trump; that (say) enough of the Republican congressional representatives break so far from Trump that impeachment hearings get held. There has to be some sort of counter-Trump movement, outside but especially inside Washington, that people can literally and metaphorically rally around; the wave of protests happening right now have to turn into real events, regularly scheduled campaign events at regular permitted venues led by a real opposition of real electeds at the federal level instead of just un-permitted protests and freeway shutdowns and smashy.
The non-profit industrial complex will have to play a key role. The badass mayors and city councillors who keep sanctuary cities safe despite what will likely be crushing punitive cuts in federal funding will help. (Right now there is probably a currently relatively undistinguished major-city mayor who is going to end up being a leading figure in the anti-Trump Popular Front. I'm excited to find out who it is.)
If he gets to keep doing rallies and we don't rally as well, his movement will be strong enough to cancel elections in 2020, if not 2018.
If you don't like the protests as they're currently happening, your thoughts shouldn't be "why are these protestors doing this?" and should instead be "how can we co-opt this back into regular election-season politics"?
oh my god this really is the happiest thought I can muster right now. "best case scenario, four more years of this election."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
(did you know he's going to keep doing rallies? He's going to keep doing rallies).
BEST case scenario. Is four more years of the 2016 Presidential election.
And this only happens if there's some political pressure from inside D.C. against Trump; that (say) enough of the Republican congressional representatives break so far from Trump that impeachment hearings get held. There has to be some sort of counter-Trump movement, outside but especially inside Washington, that people can literally and metaphorically rally around; the wave of protests happening right now have to turn into real events, regularly scheduled campaign events at regular permitted venues led by a real opposition of real electeds at the federal level instead of just un-permitted protests and freeway shutdowns and smashy.
The non-profit industrial complex will have to play a key role. The badass mayors and city councillors who keep sanctuary cities safe despite what will likely be crushing punitive cuts in federal funding will help. (Right now there is probably a currently relatively undistinguished major-city mayor who is going to end up being a leading figure in the anti-Trump Popular Front. I'm excited to find out who it is.)
If he gets to keep doing rallies and we don't rally as well, his movement will be strong enough to cancel elections in 2020, if not 2018.
If you don't like the protests as they're currently happening, your thoughts shouldn't be "why are these protestors doing this?" and should instead be "how can we co-opt this back into regular election-season politics"?
oh my god this really is the happiest thought I can muster right now. "best case scenario, four more years of this election."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Angry graffiti on the Jefferson Davis Monument, a structure that should have been destroyed many many years ago, is not remotely the same thing as waking up to a swastika on your house.
posted by zachlipton at 3:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:24 PM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
I think Donald just leveraged (and got) the reality tv fan vote. Think about it, that crosses all kinds of demographics. But skews towards those with questionable taste.
posted by valkane at 3:26 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by valkane at 3:26 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
yeah. The point isn't vandalism in the abstract, the point is the meaning of the symbols. The swastika is a symbol that means hate. The Jefferson Davis monument is a symbol that means hate.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Donald Trump's America comes to the South Oakland neighborhood of Pittsburgh, about a ten minute walk from my office building.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2016
So...
I haven't spoken to my parents since last weekend...
My nephew since he started slipping into the Alt-Right.
He is lost to hate and fear...
My mother and father... most likely pulled into the Fox News gyre.
Quite frankly... I don't think they ever need to hear my voice or see my face...
Ever again.
I. Am. Furious.
But I am also planning... organizing with others... moving to action.
And that is what I will continue to do.
Come. What. May.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 3:29 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
I haven't spoken to my parents since last weekend...
My nephew since he started slipping into the Alt-Right.
He is lost to hate and fear...
My mother and father... most likely pulled into the Fox News gyre.
Quite frankly... I don't think they ever need to hear my voice or see my face...
Ever again.
I. Am. Furious.
But I am also planning... organizing with others... moving to action.
And that is what I will continue to do.
Come. What. May.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 3:29 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's a twitter rumor that David A Clarke could be an important part of Homeland Security.
I hope that it's not true.
If there is a God up there, you know, now would be a time to like, exert your influence.
posted by angrycat at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2016
I hope that it's not true.
If there is a God up there, you know, now would be a time to like, exert your influence.
posted by angrycat at 3:30 PM on November 12, 2016
An inmate death in David Clarke's jail was recently ruled a homicide due to dehydration. The water had been shut off in Terrill Thomas's cell for six days and he was apparently not given anything to drink.
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
(Right now there is probably a currently relatively undistinguished major-city mayor who is going to end up being a leading figure in the anti-Trump Popular Front. I'm excited to find out who it is.)
You can't Tip a Buick: Have you seen this from Seattle yet?
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can't Tip a Buick: Have you seen this from Seattle yet?
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think Donald just leveraged (and got) the reality tv fan vote.
I saw a piece worrying about the Trump threat months ago that speculated on this: people who watch 'The Apprentice' may have a pretty favorable impression of Trump as Presidential material, because he acts like they think the President acts - ordering people around, demanding results, firing people of course. It plays into the perennial political fantasy that an outsider can go to Washington and fix it right up with some plain common sense, and by getting tough on the feckless elitists and bureaucrats.
posted by thelonius at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I saw a piece worrying about the Trump threat months ago that speculated on this: people who watch 'The Apprentice' may have a pretty favorable impression of Trump as Presidential material, because he acts like they think the President acts - ordering people around, demanding results, firing people of course. It plays into the perennial political fantasy that an outsider can go to Washington and fix it right up with some plain common sense, and by getting tough on the feckless elitists and bureaucrats.
posted by thelonius at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
At least Trump is going to make one country great again.
It's probably been said somewhere above already, but: after World War I, the Allies invaded Russia in an (unsuccessful, obviously) attempt to determine the outcome of the Russian Civil War. Here, Putin's Russian Federation has changed the course of American political history in one stroke and without suffering a single casualty, which the entire Soviet Union never came close to.
So Trump already has made Russia great again: even if the endeavor to re-establish an empire were to be thwarted, just having successfully gotten started with Crimea and pulled this off, Putin's bronze bust belongs right next to Lenin and Stalin and Yuri Gagarin in Russian history, I should think.
posted by XMLicious at 3:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
re: Ed Murray, yup! That's who I was thinking of. Even though I have very few nice things to say about Ed Murray as a mayor, if he's brave enough to face down the feds I'll love him forever.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rep. Debbie Dingell, D-Mich.: I said Clinton was in trouble in Michigan - my fellow Democrats didn't listen to me
posted by homunculus at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The shit of it is, we don't even know what we're preparing for exactly. All we know is that a meteor's coming and it'll hit in 70 days, we just don't know where it's going to hit, or how hard.
God help us if he prosecutes Clinton. That's the sign that we're in for the big ride.
I'm too anxious to read about this anymore. It doesn't help anyone, me reading about this anymore. Let's all promise to use as much of our brains and times as can be devoted to real action as possible, and to spend absolutely no time whatsoever on reading or writing or talking that's not hooked up to action.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:42 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
God help us if he prosecutes Clinton. That's the sign that we're in for the big ride.
I'm too anxious to read about this anymore. It doesn't help anyone, me reading about this anymore. Let's all promise to use as much of our brains and times as can be devoted to real action as possible, and to spend absolutely no time whatsoever on reading or writing or talking that's not hooked up to action.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:42 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure what the answer is but I suspect the key is figuring out a way to appeal to Evangelical voters. It can be done because Black Evangelical voters vote Democrat all the time.
Republicans have managed to develop a lock on the white evangelical vote that makes large sections of the US hostile territory. We have to convince these voters that Democrats aren't anti religion. We need to be able to talk to the more liberal evangelicals and talk about stewardship of the earth, respect for everyone's spiritual journey, that it is our moral imperative to protect the welfare of others.
But Democrats are typically shy when it comes to addressing religion. It's just something that isn't done but the truth is there are still plenty of liberals within faith traditions. We aren't all godless heathens but we've allowed conservative theology to occupy center ground without contesting their interpretation.
Yes there are issues such as reproductive rights that seem like vast gulfs to cross but I do think we can try to reach more Evangelical voters so the results in red states are less lopsided
posted by vuron at 3:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Republicans have managed to develop a lock on the white evangelical vote that makes large sections of the US hostile territory. We have to convince these voters that Democrats aren't anti religion. We need to be able to talk to the more liberal evangelicals and talk about stewardship of the earth, respect for everyone's spiritual journey, that it is our moral imperative to protect the welfare of others.
But Democrats are typically shy when it comes to addressing religion. It's just something that isn't done but the truth is there are still plenty of liberals within faith traditions. We aren't all godless heathens but we've allowed conservative theology to occupy center ground without contesting their interpretation.
Yes there are issues such as reproductive rights that seem like vast gulfs to cross but I do think we can try to reach more Evangelical voters so the results in red states are less lopsided
posted by vuron at 3:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
NYC's Mayor Bill de Blasio is openly and loudly defiant, and I don't know any more high-profile Mayor.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a twitter rumor that David A Clarke could be an important part of Homeland Security.
I hope that it's not true.
There's a small part of me that wants him to get a job in Trump administration so Milwaukee County can get a real sheriff. Then I heard him say it's only a matter of time before Black Lives Matter and ISIS join forces and I realized either option is terrible.
posted by drezdn at 3:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hope that it's not true.
There's a small part of me that wants him to get a job in Trump administration so Milwaukee County can get a real sheriff. Then I heard him say it's only a matter of time before Black Lives Matter and ISIS join forces and I realized either option is terrible.
posted by drezdn at 3:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Josh Marshall: Really Have to Wonder About the NYT's Judgment
posted by tonycpsu at 3:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I suspect the key is figuring out a way to appeal to Evangelical voters
No thanks; as long as evangelical voters are going to remain broadly opposed to LGBT rights, marriage equality, women's rights and reproductive freedom? Saying "we need to find a way to appeal to them" sounds to me like "we need to decide which principles we can sacrifice for electoral gain, and who we can safely throw under the bus".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
No thanks; as long as evangelical voters are going to remain broadly opposed to LGBT rights, marriage equality, women's rights and reproductive freedom? Saying "we need to find a way to appeal to them" sounds to me like "we need to decide which principles we can sacrifice for electoral gain, and who we can safely throw under the bus".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Really Have to Wonder About the NYT's Judgment
They've been promoting Trump's books and buildings for 30 years, and they were central in selling America on the WMD lie leading to the Iraq War. THE NYT IS NOT LIBERAL MEDIA. Not even 'even-handed'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
They've been promoting Trump's books and buildings for 30 years, and they were central in selling America on the WMD lie leading to the Iraq War. THE NYT IS NOT LIBERAL MEDIA. Not even 'even-handed'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
But while most Evangelicals are clearly pushing a reactionary stance it's not clear that millenial evangelicals are bigoted to the same level. Even if it's 10% that would make a massive difference.
Obviously we can also wait for them to die off but 80/20 splits against Democrats is insane.
posted by vuron at 4:00 PM on November 12, 2016
Obviously we can also wait for them to die off but 80/20 splits against Democrats is insane.
posted by vuron at 4:00 PM on November 12, 2016
And he angrily demonstrates the proper way to do it, throwing lettuce and tomatoes in a regular bowl and screaming that this is 'how we make a Caesar salad where I come from.'
It'll be just like that when he's president except with nuclear weapons!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:01 PM on November 12, 2016
And what might surprise people most about Trump, Res said, is this: 'He didn’t like firing people.'
That doesn't surprise me at all. Like most bullies he's a coward, and it's hard to fire people to their face.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:05 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
@jonathanchait: Trump won't win Michigan, and I am frankly offended that people think this is even a possibility - November 7, 2016
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
They are already doing it, softly. I don't think it's in the spirit of metafilter to name names, but every white-male dominated left space I read regularly, from the small blog to the big blog to the Popular Left website, has started to make this turn. Softly now, strongly later, once they've tested the waters a bit.
I wish people would "name names" because it would make these things easier to talk about and understand and figure out how to combat them.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wish people would "name names" because it would make these things easier to talk about and understand and figure out how to combat them.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sam Wang Eats a Bug
I'm glad Wang took the opportunity to lecture CNN on sensationalism and promote the idea of Trump nominating Garland. CNN won't change and Trump will nominate a fascist, an idiot, or a fascist idiot, but at least he made use of his time in the spotlight.
posted by jedicus at 4:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm glad Wang took the opportunity to lecture CNN on sensationalism and promote the idea of Trump nominating Garland. CNN won't change and Trump will nominate a fascist, an idiot, or a fascist idiot, but at least he made use of his time in the spotlight.
posted by jedicus at 4:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
6 people cut off from the outside world since Sept react to hearing Trump won the election
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's kind of sad but the best hope for limiting Trump's damage is that he's actually enough of a dickbag that he has trouble working with Ryan and the congressional Republicans. That won't stop the Supreme Court nomination but it could make legislation difficult.
posted by Justinian at 4:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wish people would "name names"
Agreed. These unnamed people have made their views public so it should be ok to name them or at least name their websites imo.
posted by futz at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agreed. These unnamed people have made their views public so it should be ok to name them or at least name their websites imo.
posted by futz at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
We don’t know Hilary Clinton after all this time?
She’s a fighter. It’s why I like her personally and despise a lot of her positions.
Had a guy who was an excellent hand to hand combatant on my crew. He was a skilled fighter, won all sorts of awards in competition. Strong, fit, tough, spirited. So he became a trainer. And he wound up demoralizing entire classes. And we came to him and told him, look, you’re a great fighter, but you’re not a teacher. And there is a difference. Same deal.
Consider Patton. He was hell on wheels as a general. But there’s no way I’d vote for him over Ike as candidate for president.
I’ve been a Clinton hater for a long time. Again, never personal, just hated her policies. Hated the idea of her making policy. Executing policy? Different story. Did I think for one second she would be a bad Secretary of State? Nope. Was she a bad Sec. State? Nope, she was outstanding. All that Benghazi political bullshit was just that. The bin Laden raid was on her watch. Bush do that? Nope. (And really, why didn’t we hear more about the bin Laden raid during the campaign? )
Visited more countries than anyone else before her. She was an ass kicker. A precise, methodical, hard working, ass kicker. Perfect for the role. Like Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool or Patrick Stewart as Charles Xavier or Wilfred Brimley to huck oatmeal or talk about diabeetus.
She was a foreign policy master just made of kick ass.
Look, she’s kicking James Comey’s ass. It’s what she does. (It’s all that she does! You can't stop her! She'll wade through you, reach down Comey’s throat, and pull his fucking heart out!)
It’s like the old lawyer saw – it’s not what you know it’s what you can prove.
In the case of politics, it’s not what it is, it’s what it looks like.
"God help us if he prosecutes Clinton. That's the sign that we're in for the big ride."
Y'know, that'd actually be a sign that there's some coherence or direction. Almost heartening really.
Because there are no limits to the mistakes someone who doesn't know what they don't know can make. And his (future) administration, as it stands, is already engaging in the kind of internecine conflict we've seen before.
Not to Godwin here, but yeah, lots of infighting, pyramid structure of leadership, giving contradictory statements and unclear overlap in responsibility, distrust and lack of transparency (even to cabinet members) and competition for positions, demand for unyielding loyalty.
If Trump had something actually planned his subordinates would at least be somewhat organized. The way it is, a LOT more damage could result.
If we're lucky, he'll be another Warren Harding and be clueless about all the illegal stuff going on in his name. (And do yourself a favor, look at the country under Harding, the Per Centum Act of 1921, Teapot Dome, all that. We're almost exactly in that state now. Hell, Harding himself, no one thought he'd win, etc. It's deja vu)
posted by Smedleyman at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
She’s a fighter. It’s why I like her personally and despise a lot of her positions.
Had a guy who was an excellent hand to hand combatant on my crew. He was a skilled fighter, won all sorts of awards in competition. Strong, fit, tough, spirited. So he became a trainer. And he wound up demoralizing entire classes. And we came to him and told him, look, you’re a great fighter, but you’re not a teacher. And there is a difference. Same deal.
Consider Patton. He was hell on wheels as a general. But there’s no way I’d vote for him over Ike as candidate for president.
I’ve been a Clinton hater for a long time. Again, never personal, just hated her policies. Hated the idea of her making policy. Executing policy? Different story. Did I think for one second she would be a bad Secretary of State? Nope. Was she a bad Sec. State? Nope, she was outstanding. All that Benghazi political bullshit was just that. The bin Laden raid was on her watch. Bush do that? Nope. (And really, why didn’t we hear more about the bin Laden raid during the campaign? )
Visited more countries than anyone else before her. She was an ass kicker. A precise, methodical, hard working, ass kicker. Perfect for the role. Like Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool or Patrick Stewart as Charles Xavier or Wilfred Brimley to huck oatmeal or talk about diabeetus.
She was a foreign policy master just made of kick ass.
Look, she’s kicking James Comey’s ass. It’s what she does. (It’s all that she does! You can't stop her! She'll wade through you, reach down Comey’s throat, and pull his fucking heart out!)
It’s like the old lawyer saw – it’s not what you know it’s what you can prove.
In the case of politics, it’s not what it is, it’s what it looks like.
"God help us if he prosecutes Clinton. That's the sign that we're in for the big ride."
Y'know, that'd actually be a sign that there's some coherence or direction. Almost heartening really.
Because there are no limits to the mistakes someone who doesn't know what they don't know can make. And his (future) administration, as it stands, is already engaging in the kind of internecine conflict we've seen before.
Not to Godwin here, but yeah, lots of infighting, pyramid structure of leadership, giving contradictory statements and unclear overlap in responsibility, distrust and lack of transparency (even to cabinet members) and competition for positions, demand for unyielding loyalty.
If Trump had something actually planned his subordinates would at least be somewhat organized. The way it is, a LOT more damage could result.
If we're lucky, he'll be another Warren Harding and be clueless about all the illegal stuff going on in his name. (And do yourself a favor, look at the country under Harding, the Per Centum Act of 1921, Teapot Dome, all that. We're almost exactly in that state now. Hell, Harding himself, no one thought he'd win, etc. It's deja vu)
posted by Smedleyman at 4:23 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
@LouDobbs: Should DOJ investigate Soros & his links to non-profits for their role in inciting riots that have caused property damage & personal injury?
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Imo, the best protest strategy is to keep them going constantly and try to come up with signs and chants that may personally irk Trump into doing stupid things. Keep them peaceful, obviously.
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Should DOJ investigate Trump & his links to people committing acts of vandalism in his name?
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The advertising decisions that helped doom Hillary Clinton
The simplest explanation is that the Clinton campaign was legitimately playing for a blowout based on all the available polling, public and private, theirs and Trump's, showing one. They used their ads and campaign stops to play for downballot races and try to build a base in red states to help grow the party. Then the month of October happened. Two things happened that month (and, you know, some debates, the Access Hollywood tape, a dozen or so allegations of sexual harassment and assault, Trump bringing out the Clinton accusers, etc...). The first, obviously, is the Director of the FBI used his office to manipulate a Presidential election. The second, as I see it, is that the undecideds, who were an unusually high percentage, decided, and they largely decided to vote for Trump. And they pretty much decided while Comey was busy with his interfering.
For example, let's look at MI. Early October polls, and there weren't a lot of high quality polls out of that state, showed it Clinton +7, even +11, but the real breakdown was somewhere around 42/35/10/13, where 10 is the third-party candidates grouped together, and 13 is the undecided portion you get if you subtract all the rest from 100. All you needed was to flip some of the third-party crowd to Trump; we know third parties always poll above their returns, and there's reason here to believe some voters on the fence about Trump would say Johnson in a poll, and bring in the undecideds to your team. And that's what happened. The final November polls were 45/42/7.1/5.9. And the final result was 47.3/47.6/4.7/0. In MI, Clinton picked up a couple of points over the month of October, and actually outperformed her average, but Trump picked up 7 points from early October to early November, and 12 points from early October to the final result. Just look at his October surge in the graph there.
I see the same pattern in FL and PA: Clinton largely came in around her early October polling, while Trump made big gains throughout the month and exceeded his November numbers. And the national exit poll, for what very minimal value it provides, says that voters who decided in the last week broke for Trump 47-42. That number is even worse when you look at the battleground states he won. I really don't trust the exit poll state subsamples very much, but MI shows 13% of voters deciding in October and they went for Trump 55-35 (7-Johnson, 3-Stein). FL shows 26% deciding in the last month, breaking for Trump 50-43 (7% other/no answer). (Most of the other battleground states only break out the data as last week/before that.) These are pretty huge numbers of voters deciding at the end of a end of a very long campaign when we all thought there wasn't possibly anything else you could want to know about these people to make up your mind.
There's a few possible explanations, and it's entirely possible that all or several or none of these are correct:
posted by zachlipton at 4:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [38 favorites]
But a review of Democrats' advertising decisions at the end of the race suggests Clinton and her allies weren't playing to win a close one. They were playing for a blowout. And it cost them.This is a really important point, but I think we need to go farther and look at why both sides made these decisions. According to what the RNC/Trump data folks were telling us, they had Trump completely dead at the beginning of October. By the start of November, 13 states were within three points. Trump's campaign noticed it early, the Clinton campaign noticed at the last minute, after the final ads were all booked, and added trips to Michigan to try to stop the bleeding, and none of the aggregators and pundits realized the threat was existential instead of something that would simply reduce the margin. It really seems like the data and the polls weren't wrong; something shifted in the last month, and the campaigns scrambled to react accordingly (this is a good time to read the Clinton staff memo from Thursday).
The simplest explanation is that the Clinton campaign was legitimately playing for a blowout based on all the available polling, public and private, theirs and Trump's, showing one. They used their ads and campaign stops to play for downballot races and try to build a base in red states to help grow the party. Then the month of October happened. Two things happened that month (and, you know, some debates, the Access Hollywood tape, a dozen or so allegations of sexual harassment and assault, Trump bringing out the Clinton accusers, etc...). The first, obviously, is the Director of the FBI used his office to manipulate a Presidential election. The second, as I see it, is that the undecideds, who were an unusually high percentage, decided, and they largely decided to vote for Trump. And they pretty much decided while Comey was busy with his interfering.
For example, let's look at MI. Early October polls, and there weren't a lot of high quality polls out of that state, showed it Clinton +7, even +11, but the real breakdown was somewhere around 42/35/10/13, where 10 is the third-party candidates grouped together, and 13 is the undecided portion you get if you subtract all the rest from 100. All you needed was to flip some of the third-party crowd to Trump; we know third parties always poll above their returns, and there's reason here to believe some voters on the fence about Trump would say Johnson in a poll, and bring in the undecideds to your team. And that's what happened. The final November polls were 45/42/7.1/5.9. And the final result was 47.3/47.6/4.7/0. In MI, Clinton picked up a couple of points over the month of October, and actually outperformed her average, but Trump picked up 7 points from early October to early November, and 12 points from early October to the final result. Just look at his October surge in the graph there.
I see the same pattern in FL and PA: Clinton largely came in around her early October polling, while Trump made big gains throughout the month and exceeded his November numbers. And the national exit poll, for what very minimal value it provides, says that voters who decided in the last week broke for Trump 47-42. That number is even worse when you look at the battleground states he won. I really don't trust the exit poll state subsamples very much, but MI shows 13% of voters deciding in October and they went for Trump 55-35 (7-Johnson, 3-Stein). FL shows 26% deciding in the last month, breaking for Trump 50-43 (7% other/no answer). (Most of the other battleground states only break out the data as last week/before that.) These are pretty huge numbers of voters deciding at the end of a end of a very long campaign when we all thought there wasn't possibly anything else you could want to know about these people to make up your mind.
There's a few possible explanations, and it's entirely possible that all or several or none of these are correct:
- Comey's letter caused late-deciders to break for Trump. It looks like some of this movement happened before Comey's letter, but it very much seems like a factor. Clinton explicitly blames the second letter, saying it may have made things worse.
- The polls were screening out unlikely Trump voters, an alleged awakened silent majority including some who didn't vote in 2012
- Undecided/third-party poll respondents were "shy Trump" supporters all along, who just didn't want to admit it to pollsters
- The feeling that Clinton had it in the bag caused some Clinton voters to stay home and others to say "eh, if it doesn't matter, I might as well vote Trump/third-party to make a point"
- Urban Election Day turnout wound up being significantly lower than predicted, possibly as a result of early voting replacing E-day voting
- Undecided/third-party poll undecideds were repulsed by Trump, but held their nose at the end and voted for him anyway. This one interests me, as it matches up well with Trump's net unfavorability of -22 and the exit poll showing those who decided earlier broke for Clinton.
- Trump's economic message resonated better with these voters in Rust Belt states and they were attracted to him when they finally made up their minds
- The polls, most of them, all of them, were just crap
posted by zachlipton at 4:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [38 favorites]
Ben Carson as a pick for the Department of Education made me curious if he is one of those people who just want to dismantle the Department altogether, so I decided to see whether he made any statements about it when he was a candidate. Nope, his plans are far worse!
posted by gatorae at 4:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
During an interview, Glenn Beck asked Carson if he would shut down the Education Department as president.msnbc, huffpost
“I actually have something I would use the Department of Education to do,” Carson explained. “It would be to monitor our institutions of higher education for extreme political bias and deny federal funding if it exists.”
posted by gatorae at 4:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
For the record, Trump would have won by even more without Gary Johnson. (WaPo link)
posted by John Cohen at 4:52 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by John Cohen at 4:52 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reminding White Americans high in ethnic identification that non-White racial groups will outnumber Whites in the United States by 2042 caused them to become more concerned about the declining status and influence of White Americans as a group (i.e., experience group status threat), and caused them to report increased support for Trump and anti-immigrant policies, as well as greater opposition to political correctness.posted by Golden Eternity at 4:52 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's kind of sad but the best hope for limiting Trump's damage is that he's actually enough of a dickbag that he has trouble working with Ryan and the congressional Republicans.
That and maybe he's enough of a raging egotist to not want to immediately and obviously be worse than W, but one has... doubts... that he's willing to put in the work to be not-obviously-the-worst-ever.
It's going to be interesting watching this fuckface go from adulation at his rallies to what one assumes will be the world's loudest chorus of booing at his inauguration, especially if he's stupid enough to try to get out of the limo and walk through an overwhelmingly black and liberal city, and to watch his reaction to becoming the most unpopular and reviled new president since the introduction of polling. There's even some realistic chance that he could be the first president to never experience net approval.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
That and maybe he's enough of a raging egotist to not want to immediately and obviously be worse than W, but one has... doubts... that he's willing to put in the work to be not-obviously-the-worst-ever.
It's going to be interesting watching this fuckface go from adulation at his rallies to what one assumes will be the world's loudest chorus of booing at his inauguration, especially if he's stupid enough to try to get out of the limo and walk through an overwhelmingly black and liberal city, and to watch his reaction to becoming the most unpopular and reviled new president since the introduction of polling. There's even some realistic chance that he could be the first president to never experience net approval.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't stop thinking about what went wrong for Clinton. One factor that I don’t think is being discussed sufficiently is the role of the media, specifically the extreme disparity in the way the two candidates were covered, including:
-Massive amounts of airtime for the Trump campaign- live feeds of empty lecterns, countdowns to rallies, hours long coverage of rallies. Clinton was out speaking almost every day but she mostly stuck to her stump speech or to realistic policy goals and, I get it, that just doesn’t compare to the excitement of a Trump rally where he could be expected to say something totally out of character for a presidential candidate every single time.
-Clinton was treated as a serious candidate and Trump was treated as a novelty. One can really make a concerted effort to dig through the word salad and figure out what Trump’s actual policies might be, but he was never called to be anything more than a guy spouting stream-of-consciousness nonsense. Clinton, on the other hand, was grilled about everything- policy, personal life, her temperament, and every bogus “scandal” that could be thrown at her. This was really evident to me in the second debate. Martha Raddatz asked Clinton what she would do to end the crisis in Syria and Clinton responded with the usual tactics- something like limited military intervention, working with a coalition, humanitarian assistance. Raddatz pressed Clinton saying “that’s what Obama is doing- what would you do differently to end the crisis during your administration?” It was probably me projecting but I felt like Clinton stared at her for just a beat as if to say “Really?! You’re following up on this? I’m having to reassure world leaders that we’ll honor treaties and won’t use nukes and you’re going to make me pretend like the President can actually do anything short of invasion to stop what’s going on?” But she ended up saying we’d take in more refugees. Trump, on the other hand said he would ask Putin (?!) to step in and there was a half-hearted “Really, Putin?” but what can you even say to that?
-Truthiness, disavowal of reality-based politics, spin, false equivalency, whatever you call it- objective facts are not a thing the media does anymore.
-The multiple-decade effort to build up an alternative media network. Fox News, talk radio, Breitbart, I don’t even know what else. But I do know people who literally ONLY get their news from these sources and to understand what they’re talking about I basically have to do research to see what’s being pushed that day. Trump was obviously immersed in this environment based on the number of things he said during the debates that I just had no clue about- Loretta Lynch, Sidney Blumenthal, etc. At the time I was like “word salad!” but those talking points resonate with a significant portion of the population- ESPECIALLY because there is no mechanism currently in existence to refute it.
What can be done regarding media:
-Campaigns must be emotion-based (we can still do policy for fun, like in our spare time or something!). There’s plenty to be emotional about. The Trump presidency massively curtailing the rights and safety of anyone who isn’t a cis white man for example. Trump’s campaign also suggested that money might not be as important as we think. Democrats should take up their rightful mantle- the rights of workers. Be explicitly populist and be angry about what’s happened to American workers. I know so many Millennials who flat-out have no possibility of a full-time job that pays well enough to support basic living expenses. I know seniors who have resigned themselves to working until they die because retirement is not an option for them. That is a travesty.
-The left needs a news network. It can still be basically fact-based but we have to have something that shapes the narrative and counters whatever nonsense if being pushed by the other side. A 16-hour a day live stream from someone’s parent’s basement would get viewers if the talking heads were personable and covered topics that were interesting. News networks get a ton of their content from videos on YouTube already. It’d be super easy to report on them from a leftist perspective. 60 million people voted for Hillary Clinton. There’s money in a GoFundMe to get something started.
That’s all I’ve got so far. I genuinely do not know how you can engage with a media that is unwilling/unable to recognize/report that Donald Trump’s policies will be disastrous for many/most Americans. I do find it (very darkly) hilarious that the media is now wringing their hands wondering if the Trump White House will shut them out. We just had 18 months of evidence that that is exactly what it’ll do, except for maybe a few favored outlets that are extraordinarily soft in their reporting.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 4:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [42 favorites]
-Massive amounts of airtime for the Trump campaign- live feeds of empty lecterns, countdowns to rallies, hours long coverage of rallies. Clinton was out speaking almost every day but she mostly stuck to her stump speech or to realistic policy goals and, I get it, that just doesn’t compare to the excitement of a Trump rally where he could be expected to say something totally out of character for a presidential candidate every single time.
-Clinton was treated as a serious candidate and Trump was treated as a novelty. One can really make a concerted effort to dig through the word salad and figure out what Trump’s actual policies might be, but he was never called to be anything more than a guy spouting stream-of-consciousness nonsense. Clinton, on the other hand, was grilled about everything- policy, personal life, her temperament, and every bogus “scandal” that could be thrown at her. This was really evident to me in the second debate. Martha Raddatz asked Clinton what she would do to end the crisis in Syria and Clinton responded with the usual tactics- something like limited military intervention, working with a coalition, humanitarian assistance. Raddatz pressed Clinton saying “that’s what Obama is doing- what would you do differently to end the crisis during your administration?” It was probably me projecting but I felt like Clinton stared at her for just a beat as if to say “Really?! You’re following up on this? I’m having to reassure world leaders that we’ll honor treaties and won’t use nukes and you’re going to make me pretend like the President can actually do anything short of invasion to stop what’s going on?” But she ended up saying we’d take in more refugees. Trump, on the other hand said he would ask Putin (?!) to step in and there was a half-hearted “Really, Putin?” but what can you even say to that?
-Truthiness, disavowal of reality-based politics, spin, false equivalency, whatever you call it- objective facts are not a thing the media does anymore.
-The multiple-decade effort to build up an alternative media network. Fox News, talk radio, Breitbart, I don’t even know what else. But I do know people who literally ONLY get their news from these sources and to understand what they’re talking about I basically have to do research to see what’s being pushed that day. Trump was obviously immersed in this environment based on the number of things he said during the debates that I just had no clue about- Loretta Lynch, Sidney Blumenthal, etc. At the time I was like “word salad!” but those talking points resonate with a significant portion of the population- ESPECIALLY because there is no mechanism currently in existence to refute it.
What can be done regarding media:
-Campaigns must be emotion-based (we can still do policy for fun, like in our spare time or something!). There’s plenty to be emotional about. The Trump presidency massively curtailing the rights and safety of anyone who isn’t a cis white man for example. Trump’s campaign also suggested that money might not be as important as we think. Democrats should take up their rightful mantle- the rights of workers. Be explicitly populist and be angry about what’s happened to American workers. I know so many Millennials who flat-out have no possibility of a full-time job that pays well enough to support basic living expenses. I know seniors who have resigned themselves to working until they die because retirement is not an option for them. That is a travesty.
-The left needs a news network. It can still be basically fact-based but we have to have something that shapes the narrative and counters whatever nonsense if being pushed by the other side. A 16-hour a day live stream from someone’s parent’s basement would get viewers if the talking heads were personable and covered topics that were interesting. News networks get a ton of their content from videos on YouTube already. It’d be super easy to report on them from a leftist perspective. 60 million people voted for Hillary Clinton. There’s money in a GoFundMe to get something started.
That’s all I’ve got so far. I genuinely do not know how you can engage with a media that is unwilling/unable to recognize/report that Donald Trump’s policies will be disastrous for many/most Americans. I do find it (very darkly) hilarious that the media is now wringing their hands wondering if the Trump White House will shut them out. We just had 18 months of evidence that that is exactly what it’ll do, except for maybe a few favored outlets that are extraordinarily soft in their reporting.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 4:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [42 favorites]
2016: 32%
I just want to emphasize this point, because I think it's super important: Trump got ~47% of the vote. 32%, according to Gallup, say they are proud of the result. In 2008, Obama got ~53% and 67% said they were proud (~51%, 48% for 2012).
As I read the results, it therefore stands to reason that 15% of Americans voted for him and aren't proud of the result. According to the chart, in fact, it's 25% of self-reported Trump voters who didn't pick proud as an option. I'm betting a lot of those made up their minds toward the end of the cycle. Those are the people we can reach. Those are the people we have to reach.
posted by zachlipton at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
I just want to emphasize this point, because I think it's super important: Trump got ~47% of the vote. 32%, according to Gallup, say they are proud of the result. In 2008, Obama got ~53% and 67% said they were proud (~51%, 48% for 2012).
As I read the results, it therefore stands to reason that 15% of Americans voted for him and aren't proud of the result. According to the chart, in fact, it's 25% of self-reported Trump voters who didn't pick proud as an option. I'm betting a lot of those made up their minds toward the end of the cycle. Those are the people we can reach. Those are the people we have to reach.
posted by zachlipton at 5:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
Do you trust your President? Do you trust your government? Are either important?
2004 cracked it, but 2016 blew it to shit. Abraham Lincoln and Donald Trump.
Fuck that.
I propose that we double-down on grifting Trump supporters and use the power for good. What, they're clearly incapable of logic or empathy and they got money to burn.
I call it "Bigly America" and you know damned well we're selling 14k gold truck nuts. Money goes to refugee aid but we'll say its for a statue or something.
posted by petebest at 5:28 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
2004 cracked it, but 2016 blew it to shit. Abraham Lincoln and Donald Trump.
Fuck that.
I propose that we double-down on grifting Trump supporters and use the power for good. What, they're clearly incapable of logic or empathy and they got money to burn.
I call it "Bigly America" and you know damned well we're selling 14k gold truck nuts. Money goes to refugee aid but we'll say its for a statue or something.
posted by petebest at 5:28 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
So this old from 2015 but have we talked about anon publishing a list of public officials who are also in the kkk? I was just clued into it. Real???
posted by ian1977 at 5:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 5:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Atlantic has some very thoughtful coverage (and some less thoughtful coverage). I wouldn't swallow it wholesale, but there's a very nice deep dive into populism and the Democratic Party -
"How Democrats Killed Their Populist Soul: In the 1970s, a new wave of post-Watergate liberals stopped fighting monopoly power. The result is an increasingly dangerous political system."
The Tech White Power Used to Go Viral
Is This the Second Redemption?
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
"How Democrats Killed Their Populist Soul: In the 1970s, a new wave of post-Watergate liberals stopped fighting monopoly power. The result is an increasingly dangerous political system."
To get a sense of how rural Democrats used to relate to voters, one need only pick up an old flyer from the Patman archives in Texas: “Here Is What Our Democratic Party Has Given Us” was the title. There were no fancy slogans or focus-grouped logos. Each item listed is a solid thing that was relevant to the lives of conservative white Southern voters in rural Texas: Electricity. Telephone. Roads. Social Security. Soil conservation. Price supports. Foreclosure prevention.And this is after the Democratic Party had "lost the South for a generation," when they were in a minor eclipse under Nixon.
...
The essence of populist politics is that political and economic freedom are deeply intertwined—that real democracy requires not just an opportunity to vote but an opportunity to compete in an open marketplace. This was the kind of politics that the Watergate Babies accidentally overthrew.
The Tech White Power Used to Go Viral
Is This the Second Redemption?
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:36 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Trump is already scaring and discouraging students from abroad.
One of the most significant roles this country plays around the world is educating foreign students, many of whom we send back home because of our immigration policies even when they have skills we need. The result is a surprising amount of the "elite" in other countries were educated here. And I believe that having, say, a young man or woman who will grow up to be a senior Chinese Government official spend some time playing beer pong in a US university is one of the most important foreign policy initiatives in this country. Messing with that would be a real loss.
posted by zachlipton at 5:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
One of the most significant roles this country plays around the world is educating foreign students, many of whom we send back home because of our immigration policies even when they have skills we need. The result is a surprising amount of the "elite" in other countries were educated here. And I believe that having, say, a young man or woman who will grow up to be a senior Chinese Government official spend some time playing beer pong in a US university is one of the most important foreign policy initiatives in this country. Messing with that would be a real loss.
posted by zachlipton at 5:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
The one comfort I have this week is the total certainty that this compulsive-lying, contractor-stiffing, serial-fraud-committing, multiple-business-bankrupting shitbag is absolutely going to screw over all of the people who voted for him.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:43 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
True enough, DOT, but no way in hell will those people *attribute* that screwing-over to Trump. It'll be more fuel for the "It was the immigrants/Muslims/America-haters" fire. He'll still be the winner in their eyes.
posted by Rykey at 5:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 5:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
...this compulsive-lying, contractor-stiffing, serial-fraud-committing, multiple-business-bankrupting shitbag is absolutely going to screw over all of the people who voted for him.
Sadly, most of them will enjoy it more than a Chuck Tingle book protagonist.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sadly, most of them will enjoy it more than a Chuck Tingle book protagonist.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The one comfort I have this week is the total certainty that this compulsive-lying, contractor-stiffing, serial-fraud-committing, multiple-business-bankrupting shitbag is absolutely going to screw over all of the people who voted for him.
You mean like this?
McConnell: It’s ‘hard to tell’ if ending ‘war on coal’ will bring back jobs
“A government spending program is not likely to solve the fundamental problem of growth,” McConnell said. “…I support the effort to help these coal counties wherever we can but that isn’t going to replace whatever was there when we had a vibrant coal industry.”
Sorry, our bad. Thanks anyways for your votes. See you in 4.
posted by Jalliah at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
You mean like this?
McConnell: It’s ‘hard to tell’ if ending ‘war on coal’ will bring back jobs
“A government spending program is not likely to solve the fundamental problem of growth,” McConnell said. “…I support the effort to help these coal counties wherever we can but that isn’t going to replace whatever was there when we had a vibrant coal industry.”
Sorry, our bad. Thanks anyways for your votes. See you in 4.
posted by Jalliah at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
The left needs a news networkI don't know whether it totals 16 hours a day, but there is The Real News, Democracy Now!, and The Young Turks.
posted by Coventry at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Checking in: Mefites, I've been activated.
I went to my first protest ever last night, and it's not going to be my last. I've spent less time in metafilter than I have in years, because there's work to do. And we're god dammed going to do it!
I got added to Pantsuit Nation, and then I got added to the Arizona chapter of Pantsuit Nation. We're organizing. Hundreds of us will be meeting next week, to plan, to prepare, and to get ready for a long haul. It's hard getting a grass roots organization going, but I have been so amazed already by the talent, experience, intelligence, and fortitude on display.
I've also gotten in touch with a group I'm Phoenix that meets every weekend outside Planned Parenthood to show their support and drown out the protesters. If I'm not mistaken, hundreds have joined this group in just the last few days.
I'm kind of shocked by how much Facebook has been a force of good for me the last few days, allowing the start to something much greater. Who knows how long it'll last, but it has been just so, so good. (And are you in Arizona? If so, send me a memail and I'll point you to our chapter of Pantsuit Nation.)
I've never been politically active, but now I'm never going to stop. I want to make Hillary proud.
posted by meese at 5:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [49 favorites]
I went to my first protest ever last night, and it's not going to be my last. I've spent less time in metafilter than I have in years, because there's work to do. And we're god dammed going to do it!
I got added to Pantsuit Nation, and then I got added to the Arizona chapter of Pantsuit Nation. We're organizing. Hundreds of us will be meeting next week, to plan, to prepare, and to get ready for a long haul. It's hard getting a grass roots organization going, but I have been so amazed already by the talent, experience, intelligence, and fortitude on display.
I've also gotten in touch with a group I'm Phoenix that meets every weekend outside Planned Parenthood to show their support and drown out the protesters. If I'm not mistaken, hundreds have joined this group in just the last few days.
I'm kind of shocked by how much Facebook has been a force of good for me the last few days, allowing the start to something much greater. Who knows how long it'll last, but it has been just so, so good. (And are you in Arizona? If so, send me a memail and I'll point you to our chapter of Pantsuit Nation.)
I've never been politically active, but now I'm never going to stop. I want to make Hillary proud.
posted by meese at 5:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [49 favorites]
Skip this if you'll find it frustrating, but also from the Atlantic:
‘I Voted for the Middle Finger, the Wrecking Ball’
The picture this paints is not someone irredeemable, but somebody who's bought into most of the Fox News points. - and doesn't understand or care about the consequences for the most vulnerable people in this election.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:55 PM on November 12, 2016
‘I Voted for the Middle Finger, the Wrecking Ball’
The picture this paints is not someone irredeemable, but somebody who's bought into most of the Fox News points. - and doesn't understand or care about the consequences for the most vulnerable people in this election.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:55 PM on November 12, 2016
Checking in: Mefites, I've been activated.
Is that the term? I've been trying to figure out how to say that this election has radicalized me without sounding like I'm gonna end up on an FBI watchlist.
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Is that the term? I've been trying to figure out how to say that this election has radicalized me without sounding like I'm gonna end up on an FBI watchlist.
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm going to follow through on the suggestion from the Huffington Post about the Electoral College. Writing my state's electors and requesting a protest vote. For those of you in red states, I hope you will do the same. It probably won't work but it's worth a try.
My question is: I'd like to suggest a Republican they can vote for instead. Which one? There's Egg, of course, and I'd probably mention him. My sense of humor really wants me to include Jeb(!) but that wouldn't be taken seriously at all. Maybe Rubio? McCain? Romney? Can't be Cruz.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
My question is: I'd like to suggest a Republican they can vote for instead. Which one? There's Egg, of course, and I'd probably mention him. My sense of humor really wants me to include Jeb(!) but that wouldn't be taken seriously at all. Maybe Rubio? McCain? Romney? Can't be Cruz.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I dunno. I chose it to avoid "radicalized" got the same reasons, but "activated" unfortunately sounds like I'm a sleeper agent whose been hypnotized or something.
Regardless, the way I am now? I like it.
posted by meese at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
Regardless, the way I am now? I like it.
posted by meese at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
Give no fucks Eric Holder was pretty cool on Bill Maher last night.
posted by Talez at 6:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Talez at 6:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
engaged
involved
potato
patato
regardless - kudos meese!
posted by Golem XIV at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2016
involved
potato
patato
regardless - kudos meese!
posted by Golem XIV at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2016
The picture this paints is not someone irredeemable, but somebody who's bought into most of the Fox News points. - and doesn't understand or care about the consequences for the most vulnerable people in this election.
Yes there's a whole bunch of I'm great, super educated (Could have gone to Yale baby!) and not racist and then...well the reason I decided I want to wreck the place is because of all these racist talking points.
Dunno what you could do with this.
posted by Jalliah at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't quite know what to think of George W Bush painting pictures of veterans wounded carrying out his orders, but it's pretty hard for me to imagine Trump doing anything like that. Frankly, it would have been pretty hard for me to imagine W doing anything like this too.
posted by zachlipton at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
True enough, DOT, but no way in hell will those people *attribute* that screwing-over to Trump. It'll be more fuel for the "It was the immigrants/Muslims/America-haters" fire. He'll still be the winner in their eyes.
Of course he will, because he cares about their problems, which I think translates to "will tell us the comforting fantasyland jobs bullshit we want to hear while hating the same people we hate." You couldn't really find an audience more beautifully primed for Trump's message than Macomb County.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:05 PM on November 12, 2016
Of course he will, because he cares about their problems, which I think translates to "will tell us the comforting fantasyland jobs bullshit we want to hear while hating the same people we hate." You couldn't really find an audience more beautifully primed for Trump's message than Macomb County.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:05 PM on November 12, 2016
Is that the term? I've been trying to figure out how to say that this election has radicalized me without sounding like I'm gonna end up on an FBI watchlist.
*whispers the secret code*
This is election has made me realize I really like radishes tossed in lemon.
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
*whispers the secret code*
This is election has made me realize I really like radishes tossed in lemon.
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
The dog barks at midnight. Can't fly without umbrella.
Am I doing it right?
posted by Justinian at 6:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Am I doing it right?
posted by Justinian at 6:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Am I doing it right?
*nods slowly*
Yes.
posted by Jalliah at 6:16 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
*nods slowly*
Yes.
posted by Jalliah at 6:16 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Clinton's Popular-Vote Lead Will Grow, and Grow, and Grow: Millions of mail-in and absentee ballots haven’t been counted yet. They won’t change anything, though.
The numbers that came out on Election Night were enough to secure Trump the presidency, but they weren’t complete. State officials are still counting millions of provisional and absentee ballots, and within two weeks, Clinton will likely have another few million votes in the bank.posted by homunculus at 6:16 PM on November 12, 2016 [24 favorites]
Most were cast in the Clinton-leaning states of California, Washington, and New York—not swing states—so they won’t change the Electoral College. But there’s a sufficient amount to put her within striking distance of Obama’s 2012 turnout, and help put an end to the argument that she simply didn’t work hard enough.
The dog barks at midnight. Can't fly without umbrella.
The spotted cuckoo bird is flying backwards.
It's a cold day for pontooning.
posted by Servo5678 at 6:20 PM on November 12, 2016
The spotted cuckoo bird is flying backwards.
It's a cold day for pontooning.
posted by Servo5678 at 6:20 PM on November 12, 2016
My question is: I'd like to suggest a Republican they can vote for instead. Which one? There's Egg, of course, and I'd probably mention him. My sense of humor really wants me to include Jeb(!) but that wouldn't be taken seriously at all. Maybe Rubio? McCain? Romney? Can't be Cruz.
In a better, kinder world, Jon Huntsman. But given this year's news cycle, probably Kasich would be the safe bet.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:21 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
In a better, kinder world, Jon Huntsman. But given this year's news cycle, probably Kasich would be the safe bet.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:21 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
My hovercraft is full of eels
posted by Golem XIV at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Golem XIV at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
biden: cmon you gotta print a fake birth certificate, put it in an envelope labeled "SECRET" and leave it in the oval office desk--@jonnysun
obama: joe
I have to say, this week proved President Obama is a damn class act. Because there is no way I could have resisted the urge to keep Trump waiting for an hour, send out an aide to ask him for his birth certificate, then send him away when he couldn't produce his papers on demand.
posted by zachlipton at 6:26 PM on November 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
probably Kasich would be the safe bet.
Thank you. I knew there was one I was forgetting. He's the perfect choice.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:29 PM on November 12, 2016
Thank you. I knew there was one I was forgetting. He's the perfect choice.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:29 PM on November 12, 2016
Trump's conflicts of interest take White House into uncharted territory
posted by Talez at 6:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump has holdings in Dakota Access pipeline company Energy Transfer Partners. In his first 100 days, Trump has pledged to remove every impediment to the pipeline, which has been the subject of protests violently suppressed by police in North Dakota.Good luck to the people at Standing Rock. I don't know what's going to happen to them past January and it's scary to think about.
posted by Talez at 6:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump's conflicts of interest take White House into uncharted territory
Yeah, this was obvious since forever, but the Clinton Foundation was a more impirtant issue. *eyeroll*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Yeah, this was obvious since forever, but the Clinton Foundation was a more impirtant issue. *eyeroll*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Regardless, the way I am now? I like it.
posted by meese
ed? is that you?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by meese
ed? is that you?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
The dog barks at midnight. Can't fly without umbrella.
Am I doing it right?
You have to put the umbrella in a bag. We go now to meet the pig.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2016
Am I doing it right?
You have to put the umbrella in a bag. We go now to meet the pig.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2016
I do find it (very darkly) hilarious that the media is now wringing their hands wondering if the Trump White House will shut them out. We just had 18 months of evidence that that is exactly what it’ll do, except for maybe a few favored outlets that are extraordinarily soft in their reporting.
They will fold but quick. If you want anything close to an objective documenting of the failures, farces, frauds and fuckery that this administration will be, start reading the international press. Maybe, just maybe, the Washington Post will hold out?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
They will fold but quick. If you want anything close to an objective documenting of the failures, farces, frauds and fuckery that this administration will be, start reading the international press. Maybe, just maybe, the Washington Post will hold out?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
There needs to be some sort of serious case study for how all of these right-wing populists and authoritarians have achieved power. May, Zeman, Orban, Erdogan, Sisi, Netanyahu, Modi, Abe, Xi, Duterte. (I'm probably missing more.) Interesting that Putin seems to predate them all. The forces who wish to stop this nativist, nationalist rise needs to figure this out.
The one tiny comfort so far is that it seems like most of these strongmen are more interested in fighting the liberal-democratic and dissident forces in their own countries more than they are against each other. Hence both Russia and China congratulating Trump, and Duterte previously declaring his allegiance to China, now only to reverse it with this election, calling himself a "small molecule" compared to Trump.
Another grim trend- various female heads of governments being taken down by accusations of corruption, leading to the victory of right-wing forces. Kirchner in Argentina (Macri is conventional right-wing, but conservative nonetheless) and Dilma in Brazil (Bolsonaro, who's far-right compared to the impeachers, is said to be a shoo-in for 2018). At least President Park in South Korea already is a right-winger.
In many ways, once again we've proved that American Exceptionalism is a myth. We're just catching up with the rest of the world. Ironic how Merkel's Germany is the main bulwark against it all.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
The one tiny comfort so far is that it seems like most of these strongmen are more interested in fighting the liberal-democratic and dissident forces in their own countries more than they are against each other. Hence both Russia and China congratulating Trump, and Duterte previously declaring his allegiance to China, now only to reverse it with this election, calling himself a "small molecule" compared to Trump.
Another grim trend- various female heads of governments being taken down by accusations of corruption, leading to the victory of right-wing forces. Kirchner in Argentina (Macri is conventional right-wing, but conservative nonetheless) and Dilma in Brazil (Bolsonaro, who's far-right compared to the impeachers, is said to be a shoo-in for 2018). At least President Park in South Korea already is a right-winger.
In many ways, once again we've proved that American Exceptionalism is a myth. We're just catching up with the rest of the world. Ironic how Merkel's Germany is the main bulwark against it all.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:51 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Shattered
It wasn’t simply that the imagined coalition did not, in the end, cohere — though it did not. It was also that the very specter of it, the threat that power could be wrested from those Americans who have traditionally enjoyed more than their share, had created a spasm of resentment and revulsion that no pollster had really been able to track. It wasn’t just that white Americans voted Republican, which they usually do. It’s that they chose a uniquely unqualified candidate who openly sold himself on promises of resistance to and revenge on the women and people of color who were poised to exert a historic degree of power.posted by kirkaracha at 6:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
...
We are a female-majority country that had never before nominated, much less elected, a woman president, and in which the administration of our first black president has been unapologetically delegitimized by members of his opposing party, led by our new president-elect. The resounding, surprising, data-defying victory of a man who ran on open racism and misogyny, and was voted into office by 63 percent of white men and 53 percent of white women voters, was made possible by voters threatened by the increased influence of women and people of color.
Bernie Sanders Backs Rep. Keith Ellison For DNC Chair
The little I know about Ellison comes from Wikipedia and unfriendly news reports, but they allege that he was formerly a spokesperson for the "deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay" Nation of Islam, that he defended NOI leaders' antisemitic comments, and that he's a 9-11 truther.
My first exposure to antisemitism in the USA was when I passed by a NOI stall selling, among other things, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The sight of it terrified me; it was probably meant to do so. I don't have a say in this, obviously, but I feel that having a background with the NOI is like having a background with the KKK: it should bar anyone seeking public office except in the most unusual cases.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The little I know about Ellison comes from Wikipedia and unfriendly news reports, but they allege that he was formerly a spokesperson for the "deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay" Nation of Islam, that he defended NOI leaders' antisemitic comments, and that he's a 9-11 truther.
My first exposure to antisemitism in the USA was when I passed by a NOI stall selling, among other things, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The sight of it terrified me; it was probably meant to do so. I don't have a say in this, obviously, but I feel that having a background with the NOI is like having a background with the KKK: it should bar anyone seeking public office except in the most unusual cases.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:54 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Give no fucks Eric Holder was pretty cool on Bill Maher last night.
Sure, but protip: you will not enjoy the way Ana Marie Cox is treated on the panel later, especially when she has the temerity to contradict Maher's "boo-hoo, poor oppressed white working man" shtick. Glad to see he's as big a tool as ever. God forbid she should get a word in edgewise.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sure, but protip: you will not enjoy the way Ana Marie Cox is treated on the panel later, especially when she has the temerity to contradict Maher's "boo-hoo, poor oppressed white working man" shtick. Glad to see he's as big a tool as ever. God forbid she should get a word in edgewise.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
You know, I think I have finally sussed exactly Trump looks so miserable in those pics of his White House visit with President O.
He is used to considering himself the smartest person in the room and whatever random thought enters his head being universally acknowledged as a spark of his undeniable genius. And he's been able to keep thinking that because he surrounds himself with sycophants who prop him up. Even in his "world-class dealing," which is really anything but world-class, the people he's schmoozing schmooze him back so he can think he's getting the best of it at every turn.
But now he is finding out that he is surrounded by experts who know volumes of stuff he's never even heard of, military and foreign policy and how that Constitution thing really works. He is being told that there are limits and that he can't just let that random thought run. I think he has finally really realized that these people are smarter and know a lot more than he does and he is not the "big league" to them. And that's why he is looking so miserable. This isn't going to be fun for him at all.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
He is used to considering himself the smartest person in the room and whatever random thought enters his head being universally acknowledged as a spark of his undeniable genius. And he's been able to keep thinking that because he surrounds himself with sycophants who prop him up. Even in his "world-class dealing," which is really anything but world-class, the people he's schmoozing schmooze him back so he can think he's getting the best of it at every turn.
But now he is finding out that he is surrounded by experts who know volumes of stuff he's never even heard of, military and foreign policy and how that Constitution thing really works. He is being told that there are limits and that he can't just let that random thought run. I think he has finally really realized that these people are smarter and know a lot more than he does and he is not the "big league" to them. And that's why he is looking so miserable. This isn't going to be fun for him at all.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
Sure, but protip: you will not enjoy the way Ana Marie Cox is treated on the panel later, especially when she has the temerity to contradict Maher's "boo-hoo, poor oppressed white working man" shtick. Glad to see he's as big a tool as ever. God forbid she should get a word in edgewise.
And John Legend with the "I think we've studied the white working man pretty well this election" remark as well when all the white male hosts were talking about Democrats losing working men.
When Trae Crowder said "do you want to be right or do you want to win" and Thomas Friedman was saying Democrats have to gerrymander states as well in the house, I really had to admit to myself that I really don't want to sell values of fairness and inclusiveness down the river for what is essentially rules lawyering and coveting bigots in the process of gaining power.
I think that's why I'm so uncomfortable with 2018 and 2020. Unless we start to do really uncomfortable things that do compromise our values and our integrity, a lot more people are going to suffer in the long term. I just still struggle to accept it. I only want what's best for the people that need the most help and I should probably stop selling those people down the river because of my pride and desire for intellectual honesty. But I'm so scared of becoming that very thing I despise.
posted by Talez at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
And John Legend with the "I think we've studied the white working man pretty well this election" remark as well when all the white male hosts were talking about Democrats losing working men.
When Trae Crowder said "do you want to be right or do you want to win" and Thomas Friedman was saying Democrats have to gerrymander states as well in the house, I really had to admit to myself that I really don't want to sell values of fairness and inclusiveness down the river for what is essentially rules lawyering and coveting bigots in the process of gaining power.
I think that's why I'm so uncomfortable with 2018 and 2020. Unless we start to do really uncomfortable things that do compromise our values and our integrity, a lot more people are going to suffer in the long term. I just still struggle to accept it. I only want what's best for the people that need the most help and I should probably stop selling those people down the river because of my pride and desire for intellectual honesty. But I'm so scared of becoming that very thing I despise.
posted by Talez at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
There needs to be some sort of serious case study for how all of these right-wing populists and authoritarians have achieved power. May
May isn't a right-wing populist or much of an authoritarian; she's a technocrat who became PM after Cameron quit because he backed Remain in the Brexit referendum and lost (and she became PM because Michael Gove thought he'd play Brutus and stab Boris Johnson in the back, angling for the top spot himself, only to be shut out in the end). I'm no fan of the Tories but I think calling them "right-wing populists"/"authoritarians" is a stretch (that'd be UKIP or the BNP).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
May isn't a right-wing populist or much of an authoritarian; she's a technocrat who became PM after Cameron quit because he backed Remain in the Brexit referendum and lost (and she became PM because Michael Gove thought he'd play Brutus and stab Boris Johnson in the back, angling for the top spot himself, only to be shut out in the end). I'm no fan of the Tories but I think calling them "right-wing populists"/"authoritarians" is a stretch (that'd be UKIP or the BNP).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The press will roll over instantly, as they are already doing. No one can make money running stories that are actually critical of a Republiklan administration.
"Buhr mwup terrible buhr buhr groop remains to be seen" fuckery.
YOU SOLD US OUT, CONOVER!
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Buhr mwup terrible buhr buhr groop remains to be seen" fuckery.
YOU SOLD US OUT, CONOVER!
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm no fan of the Tories but I think calling them "right-wing populists"/"authoritarians" is a stretch
Sure, but doesn't May's pro-Brexit stance put her on the side of the xenophobes and populists? We're already similarly associating all Trump voters and abetters to bigots, on the American side.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:11 PM on November 12, 2016
Sure, but doesn't May's pro-Brexit stance put her on the side of the xenophobes and populists? We're already similarly associating all Trump voters and abetters to bigots, on the American side.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:11 PM on November 12, 2016
My understanding was that she was unenergetically for Remain before the referendum.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:14 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:14 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
He is used to considering himself the smartest person in the room and whatever random thought enters his head being universally acknowledged as a spark of his undeniable genius. And he's been able to keep thinking that because he surrounds himself with sycophants who prop him up.
Sure, his history is probably filled with (and fueled by) being the person who most knows the thing that needs to be known. Perhaps in the future this election will be referred to as the Battle of the Echo Chambers.
posted by rhizome at 7:15 PM on November 12, 2016
Sure, his history is probably filled with (and fueled by) being the person who most knows the thing that needs to be known. Perhaps in the future this election will be referred to as the Battle of the Echo Chambers.
posted by rhizome at 7:15 PM on November 12, 2016
I think that's why I'm so uncomfortable with 2018 and 2020. Unless we start to do really uncomfortable things that do compromise our values and our integrity, a lot more people are going to suffer in the long term. I just still struggle to accept it. I only want what's best for the people that need the most help and I should probably stop selling those people down the river because of my pride and desire for intellectual honesty. But I'm so scared of becoming that very thing I despise.
I'm definitely starting to have uncomfortable conversations in my head. What would I give up to put climate change back on the table? If I had to choose between transgender equality and functional healthcare, which would I choose? This is seriously the worst game.
"ratfucking but for Dems" is way, way down the list on moral quandaries.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:18 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm definitely starting to have uncomfortable conversations in my head. What would I give up to put climate change back on the table? If I had to choose between transgender equality and functional healthcare, which would I choose? This is seriously the worst game.
"ratfucking but for Dems" is way, way down the list on moral quandaries.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:18 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Don't blame me, I voted for nadir.
posted by porn in the woods at 7:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by porn in the woods at 7:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
And John Legend with the "I think we've studied the white working man pretty well this election" remark as well when all the white male hosts were talking about Democrats losing working men.
Oh wow, I gave up in disgust before that, but John Legend says what needs to be said, and between them, he and Ana Marie Cox manage to shift the tone some.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh wow, I gave up in disgust before that, but John Legend says what needs to be said, and between them, he and Ana Marie Cox manage to shift the tone some.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sure, but doesn't May's pro-Brexit stance put her on the side of the xenophobes and populists?
Not so much, it's craven political calculus. "Leave" carried the referendum and she's insisting on delivering on it because she's afraid of what happens if she doesn't (and of voters deserting the Tories for UKIP). She was saying rather different things before the referendum. The EU issue has been a major problem for the Tory party for decades, now (Brexit only happened at all because Cameron agreed a referendum to appease the Eurosceptic right wing of his party).
Worth noting also that Euroscepticism in the UK isn't confined to xenophobic right-wingers (Tony Benn was against British membership in the EU, for instance); the left-wing argument against the EU is that it's undemocratic and unaccountable, -- see for instance the proposed EU constitution being rejected in referenda by France and the Netherlands; it was repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty, defeated in a referendum in Ireland, so they held another one because they didn't get the result they wanted -- and that the "one size fits Germany" fiscal and monetary restrictions imposed by EU membership are harmful and unfair (a ban on state aid to industry, for instance, so something like the US auto bailout couldn't happen in the EU).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not so much, it's craven political calculus. "Leave" carried the referendum and she's insisting on delivering on it because she's afraid of what happens if she doesn't (and of voters deserting the Tories for UKIP). She was saying rather different things before the referendum. The EU issue has been a major problem for the Tory party for decades, now (Brexit only happened at all because Cameron agreed a referendum to appease the Eurosceptic right wing of his party).
Worth noting also that Euroscepticism in the UK isn't confined to xenophobic right-wingers (Tony Benn was against British membership in the EU, for instance); the left-wing argument against the EU is that it's undemocratic and unaccountable, -- see for instance the proposed EU constitution being rejected in referenda by France and the Netherlands; it was repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty, defeated in a referendum in Ireland, so they held another one because they didn't get the result they wanted -- and that the "one size fits Germany" fiscal and monetary restrictions imposed by EU membership are harmful and unfair (a ban on state aid to industry, for instance, so something like the US auto bailout couldn't happen in the EU).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I my fantasy when Obama and Trump met they had a moment alone where Obama said "You know who's name is on everything, who's getting the blame for every stupid thing that happens on your watch? How do you want to go down in history Donald?"
I hope someone is telling him this, because Trump is a lot of terrible things, but he's not a True Believer. Cruz would take the hate for the Righteous Cause, but why should Trump? Hopefully he will realize he's being set up as the fall guy.
posted by bongo_x at 7:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
I hope someone is telling him this, because Trump is a lot of terrible things, but he's not a True Believer. Cruz would take the hate for the Righteous Cause, but why should Trump? Hopefully he will realize he's being set up as the fall guy.
posted by bongo_x at 7:33 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
I wonder how much Pence's library of misfits are praying for a miracle.
posted by rhizome at 7:40 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by rhizome at 7:40 PM on November 12, 2016
Joy Ann Reid Claps Back: Time To Cover Trump For Real
posted by homunculus at 7:42 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 7:42 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
I wonder how much Pence's library of misfits are praying for a miracle.
As a librarian here in Indiana, I'm gonna need you to not use "Pence" and "library" in the same sentence, m'kay?
posted by Rykey at 7:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
As a librarian here in Indiana, I'm gonna need you to not use "Pence" and "library" in the same sentence, m'kay?
posted by Rykey at 7:45 PM on November 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
Yeah, changing the legislative and house districts doesn't even register on my "this is bad" radar anymore. It seems like a no brainer.
The real moral quagmire will be like do the Democrats pander more to racist white fucks if it means getting elected and being able to do good for everyone.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The real moral quagmire will be like do the Democrats pander more to racist white fucks if it means getting elected and being able to do good for everyone.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
It would upset your sense of fairness to undo things like that?
I think we need to undo things like that but I don't think the solution is to have the Washington state legislature to gerrymander (if the Ds had a trifecta come 2020) the state to bilk Republicans out of house seats despite being 52-48 which is what some people are suggesting.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2016
I think we need to undo things like that but I don't think the solution is to have the Washington state legislature to gerrymander (if the Ds had a trifecta come 2020) the state to bilk Republicans out of house seats despite being 52-48 which is what some people are suggesting.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2016
Joy Ann Reid Claps Back: Time To Cover Trump For Real
Wow, she's awesome.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wow, she's awesome.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
I would certainly like to UNgerrymander things, but I personally have no desire to disenfranchise Republican voters, no. I think Congressional Democrats should obstruct the fuck out of a Muslim ban or something equally horrible or contrary to our values or harmful to the country. But I don't think there should be mindless across-the-board "screw you even if it screws us all" Republican-style obstruction or shutdowns.
I think Democrat Senators should oppose with every fiber of their being hyper-conservative or Evangelical-favoring Supreme Court justices, but no, even if it were somebody who'd reverse Roe v. Wade, they shouldn't pull this end-run McConnell shit and just refuse to let the confirmation hearings occur. The whole Garland thing is appalling; letting that become normal would be worse.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:06 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think Democrat Senators should oppose with every fiber of their being hyper-conservative or Evangelical-favoring Supreme Court justices, but no, even if it were somebody who'd reverse Roe v. Wade, they shouldn't pull this end-run McConnell shit and just refuse to let the confirmation hearings occur. The whole Garland thing is appalling; letting that become normal would be worse.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:06 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would certainly like to UNgerrymander things
The best way to do that is to increase the size of the House of Representatives from the current number of 435--the number of representatives increased to account for population growth up until 1911, when it was fixed at the current number by law (the US population at the time was around 92 million). The best way to do this would be to look at the state with the smallest population (Wyoming, c. 600K people) and use that as a basis for apportionment, which would give 550 representatives (which isn't an unmanageably large number, the UK House of Commons has 650 MPs).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
The best way to do that is to increase the size of the House of Representatives from the current number of 435--the number of representatives increased to account for population growth up until 1911, when it was fixed at the current number by law (the US population at the time was around 92 million). The best way to do this would be to look at the state with the smallest population (Wyoming, c. 600K people) and use that as a basis for apportionment, which would give 550 representatives (which isn't an unmanageably large number, the UK House of Commons has 650 MPs).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Does this Dworkin report have any legs?
posted by ian1977 at 8:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 8:12 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are the Trumps going to be the first First Family were both spouses have appeared in porn?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The little I know about Ellison comes from Wikipedia and unfriendly news reports, but they allege that he was formerly a spokesperson for the "deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay" Nation of Islam, that he defended NOI leaders' antisemitic comments, and that he's a 9-11 truther.
He's not a truther.
He repudiated and expressed regret for his support for NOI.
Ellison wrote a letter to the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota & the Dakotas saying he had never been a member, and that his connections with the Nation of Islam were limited to an 18-month period during which he helped organize the Minnesota contingent at the 1995 Million Man March. In Ellison's letter, he denounced the Nation of Islam and Farrakhan, writing "I wrongly dismissed concerns that they [Farrakhan's remarks] were anti-Semitic. They were and are anti-Semitic and I should have come to that conclusion earlier than I did." He explained his previous views, saying that he "did not adequately scrutinize the positions and statements of the Nation of Islam, Louis Farrakhan, and Khalid Muhammed." He also stated, "any kind of discrimination and hate are wrong. This has always been my position". During the 2006 campaign, many prominent Jewish DFL activists supported Ellison, including fundraisers Samuel and Sylvia Kaplan, and State Representative Phyllis Kahn, who said it was "inconceivable that he could have ever been an anti-Semite."posted by Coventry at 8:31 PM on November 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
Are the Trumps going to be the first First Family were both spouses have appeared in porn?
Yes, but Melania's was soft-core; and Donald had a very small part.
As he does now.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:32 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, but Melania's was soft-core; and Donald had a very small part.
As he does now.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:32 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Kate McKinnon as Hillary singing Hallelujah is the SNL cold open. So now I'm crying again. I'm crying at SNL. Just.. fuck, this really is the apocalypse.
posted by gatorae at 8:32 PM on November 12, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 8:32 PM on November 12, 2016 [33 favorites]
So there's a picture of Trump and team the moment the election was called.
I've made a huge mistake.
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on November 12, 2016 [38 favorites]
I've made a huge mistake.
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on November 12, 2016 [38 favorites]
Kate McKinnon is a goddammed national treasure. Tears.
posted by ian1977 at 8:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 8:40 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
The fact that Trump is so clearly going to be miserable doesn't make me feel better per se but it does make me feel glad.
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
My god. Why would they release that photo?
posted by zachlipton at 8:45 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 8:45 PM on November 12, 2016
So there's a picture of Trump and team the moment the election was called.
Pence.
posted by holgate at 8:46 PM on November 12, 2016
Pence.
posted by holgate at 8:46 PM on November 12, 2016
Trump is the miserable guy next to Pence.
posted by Justinian at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pence is so happy! He knows he just got to be President one way or another.
But yah. Trump. That is not a picture of a man who looks happy to be 'winning'
posted by Jalliah at 8:49 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The photo is one of those things that is going to tell you more about the interpreter than the subject. He will look cool and confident to his supporters.
posted by skewed at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by skewed at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
To be fair, Trump doesn't smile a lot even when he's having a great time. He's kind of got Resting Prick Face. Although you'd think if there was one moment in life when he'd be grinning ear to ear, it'd be walking into the White House and rubbing Pres. Obama's nose in his victory.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Guess he got tired of winning!
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
I've made a huge mistake.
Where did this come from? Is it from a source that can confirm that this actually is the moment? Just want to be positive before I send it to couple of people.
posted by Jalliah at 8:53 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where did this come from? Is it from a source that can confirm that this actually is the moment? Just want to be positive before I send it to couple of people.
posted by Jalliah at 8:53 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Part of me does wonder, what if there were some other position for him that he'd regard as a bigger "win" (and would obviously be a lot less work and hassle, as he's probably beginning to realize), like some kind of reality tv thing all about how very fascinating he is.... could he be induced to just resign the post, "I've made my point", and just go?
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:55 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:55 PM on November 12, 2016
"I've made a huge mistake." - J.O.B. in Arrested Development, the TV story of the Trump family
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
To be fair, Trump doesn't smile a lot even when he's having a great time. He's kind of got Resting Prick Face. Although you'd think if there was one moment in life when he'd be grinning ear to ear, it'd be walking into the White House and rubbing Pres. Obama's nose in his victory.
I wouldn't expect grinning from ear to ear from him because he never seems to smile. You'd think he would at least show some sort of Trump version of 'yay, I won'. He may have not smiled much during his campaign but he did get worked up and show energy at least.
posted by Jalliah at 8:57 PM on November 12, 2016
I wouldn't expect grinning from ear to ear from him because he never seems to smile. You'd think he would at least show some sort of Trump version of 'yay, I won'. He may have not smiled much during his campaign but he did get worked up and show energy at least.
posted by Jalliah at 8:57 PM on November 12, 2016
That is the look of a man who is coming down from a heroic regimen of amphetamine pills and is wondering if he has done permanent damage.
posted by bukvich at 9:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by bukvich at 9:02 PM on November 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Where did this come from?
It came from I found it on the internet, so you know it must be true.
posted by Justinian at 9:05 PM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
It came from I found it on the internet, so you know it must be true.
posted by Justinian at 9:05 PM on November 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
So de Blasio and now Cuomo.
Donald is talking about spending weekends in NY. How is that gonna work...
Andrew Cuomo: New York Is A ‘Refuge’ For Minorities In Donald Trump Era
If anyone feels that they are under attack I want them to know that the State of New York ― the state that has the Statue of Liberty in its harbor ― is their refuge,” Cuomo wrote in an email to members of New York’s Democratic Party. “Whether you are gay or straight, Muslim or Christian, rich or poor, black or white or brown, we respect all people in the state of New York.”
“We won’t allow a federal government that attacks immigrants to do so in our state,” he added.
posted by Jalliah at 9:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
Donald is talking about spending weekends in NY. How is that gonna work...
Andrew Cuomo: New York Is A ‘Refuge’ For Minorities In Donald Trump Era
If anyone feels that they are under attack I want them to know that the State of New York ― the state that has the Statue of Liberty in its harbor ― is their refuge,” Cuomo wrote in an email to members of New York’s Democratic Party. “Whether you are gay or straight, Muslim or Christian, rich or poor, black or white or brown, we respect all people in the state of New York.”
“We won’t allow a federal government that attacks immigrants to do so in our state,” he added.
posted by Jalliah at 9:10 PM on November 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
It came from I found it on the internet, so you know it must be true.
Checks out guys. Good enough for me.
posted by bongo_x at 9:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Checks out guys. Good enough for me.
posted by bongo_x at 9:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
It came from I found it on the internet, so you know it must be true.
Checks out guys. Good enough for me.
My humor meter is all over the place right now. Why do I find this hysterical? Why? Why?
posted by Jalliah at 9:13 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Checks out guys. Good enough for me.
My humor meter is all over the place right now. Why do I find this hysterical? Why? Why?
posted by Jalliah at 9:13 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's a link to the Kate McKinnon SNL cold open. Bring your Kleenex; it's powerful.
posted by Silverstone at 9:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Silverstone at 9:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
OK, the SNL "Donald Trump is white guys' Beyoncé" joke is pretty funny.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:15 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I thought I'd cry on election night, and I didn't. I just sat there numb. I've just been numb.
I needed that. Thanks.
posted by mochapickle at 9:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
I needed that. Thanks.
posted by mochapickle at 9:20 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have too many emotions from the Kate McKinnon bit. Just...way too many.
posted by kalimac at 9:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kalimac at 9:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Apparently it just now occurred to Trump to ask how many days a week he's going to have to spend in the White House...
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wow, the lyrics are on the money:
"I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
And even though it all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah"
posted by kirkaracha at 9:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
"I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
And even though it all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah"
posted by kirkaracha at 9:46 PM on November 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
Apparently it just now occurred to Trump to ask how many days a week he's going to have to spend in the White House...
Given precedent, I'm sure the conservative Republicans will all be there to heap scorn on a part time president.
posted by Talez at 9:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Given precedent, I'm sure the conservative Republicans will all be there to heap scorn on a part time president.
posted by Talez at 9:57 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would think that Trump being part-time would play right into the Republicans of both houses' hands. They can run rings around him where he know so little about how the US government actually works. I sense he figures that it's pretty much presidential proclamations. Meaning no disrespect to Sir Patrick Stewart from his Star Trek Next Gen days, I hear Trump trying to masterfully intone "Make it so" and finding that it has no real effect on either house.
posted by Silverstone at 10:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Silverstone at 10:11 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
If saying 'make it so' doesn't it work maybe he will just make sexy cakes instead.
posted by ian1977 at 10:14 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 10:14 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I’m a Coastal Elite From the Midwest: The Real Bubble is Rural America
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:17 PM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:17 PM on November 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
It is just one more indication that it's really going to be President Pence.
posted by Jalliah at 10:18 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Make it sad!"
posted by notyou at 10:26 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by notyou at 10:26 PM on November 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Until Tuesday, I would drift off to the BBC Overnight, drift off, wake up in patches until getting up with Morning Edition. Now I go to sleep listening to traffic and listen to the morning news with reluctance, just to track the time.
As mediareport noted so way above, we have been through this movie before. I still remember how aghast I was to watch Carter concede before the polls closed out here. And then to live through the next twelve years. And eight years more eight years later.
Well, I've got my 36 CDs of Bob Dylan The 1966 Live Recordings through which to wade for a few days. Which will no doubt confirm my assessment of Après 1966 le déluge -- it truly was the best year ever.
Funny, though, how the coincidences pile up. Love and Theft came out on the 11th of September, 2001 and now The 1966 Live Recordings on November 11th, 2016...
I should like to think that we shall live through this, that we shall stand together, that we shall fight, that we shall overcome.
Someday.
Until then...
As mediareport noted so way above, we have been through this movie before. I still remember how aghast I was to watch Carter concede before the polls closed out here. And then to live through the next twelve years. And eight years more eight years later.
Well, I've got my 36 CDs of Bob Dylan The 1966 Live Recordings through which to wade for a few days. Which will no doubt confirm my assessment of Après 1966 le déluge -- it truly was the best year ever.
Funny, though, how the coincidences pile up. Love and Theft came out on the 11th of September, 2001 and now The 1966 Live Recordings on November 11th, 2016...
I should like to think that we shall live through this, that we shall stand together, that we shall fight, that we shall overcome.
Someday.
Until then...
Like one betrothed I getposted by y2karl at 10:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Each evening a letter.
And late at night sit down to write
An answer to my friend.
Low in the sky there shines a star
Between two trunks of trees.
So calmly promising to me
That what I dream, shall be.
I am staying with white death
On my way to darkness.
Do no evil, gentle one,
To anyone on Earth.
Anna Akmatova
I would think that Trump being part-time would play right into the Republicans of both houses' hands. They can run rings around him where he know so little about how the US government actually works.
This is why I want him to start with Building The Wall:
1. He'll likely get resistance from both the Democrats (for philosophical reasons) and Republicans (for spending reasons). This will make him feel angry and persecuted. It also eats up time.
2. He will dig in his heels and decline to focus on anything else until he gets his way.
3. If we do start actually building the damn thing, well,
(a) Paying people to essentially dig a hole and fill it back up is a perfectly fine form of economic stimulus, and,
(b) A lot of people who are here undocumented just fly in and overstay their visas anyway so it accomplishes zero actual right-wing goals, and,
(c) The actual geography of the border makes it kind of impossible to complete.
4. Democrats can campaign on "stop the stupid" in 2018.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is why I want him to start with Building The Wall:
1. He'll likely get resistance from both the Democrats (for philosophical reasons) and Republicans (for spending reasons). This will make him feel angry and persecuted. It also eats up time.
2. He will dig in his heels and decline to focus on anything else until he gets his way.
3. If we do start actually building the damn thing, well,
(a) Paying people to essentially dig a hole and fill it back up is a perfectly fine form of economic stimulus, and,
(b) A lot of people who are here undocumented just fly in and overstay their visas anyway so it accomplishes zero actual right-wing goals, and,
(c) The actual geography of the border makes it kind of impossible to complete.
4. Democrats can campaign on "stop the stupid" in 2018.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:27 PM on November 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
It would be interesting to see what would happen to the illegal immigrant's are stealin' our jobs narrative if he does build a wall. I mean, the point of the wall in his claims is that it would end the problem, so if it's built and doesn't, then what? I have to believe they'd go into denial about its failure and either claim there is no more illegal immigration issue, or, of course, find some other scapegoat. For my money, the wall is about the least of my worries with this regime, so, sure, go for it Donnie, keep your boys club occupied and away from the other business that could be messed with.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 10:35 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am made uneasy by Trump's uneasiness. I mean, I know my drugs and a little bit about narcissism, and I can't see it going in the direction of *Trump now knows there is so much he does not know and he is humbled*. I see it more in the terms of *Trump really wants more drugs* and *Trump will surround himself with people who are too incompetent to know when he's incompetent*
I mean, if he really wanted to be like *whoops I won well let's see if I can avoid destroying the country because I am self-aware enough to know that even my great knowledge has limits* I think that the cabinet top picks would not look like a kakistrocacy in the making.
posted by angrycat at 10:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I mean, if he really wanted to be like *whoops I won well let's see if I can avoid destroying the country because I am self-aware enough to know that even my great knowledge has limits* I think that the cabinet top picks would not look like a kakistrocacy in the making.
posted by angrycat at 10:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is why I want him to start with Building The Wall:
The Wall thing could also turn interesting with the reaction of his supporters. I was reading about it today and there appears to be supporters that are absolutely, 100%, he must keep the promise to build the Wall and those that believe that it's a just a metaphor about immediately coming down hard on immigration. The Wall is the #1 thing that they want to happen as soon as he gets in.
I ponder about fights between the physical wall true believers and the metaphorical wall true believers. Already seen a few arguments on message boards. Oh and the 100% physical wall believers seem to be the hardcore white nationalists and alt-right and they vowing to HOLD him to this promise using any means necessary. This probably wouldn't be pretty for everyone so I hope it doesn't happenm but I'll admit that there is a part of me that gets some satisfaction in thinking of his hardcore white guy base turning and going after him.
posted by Jalliah at 10:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Wall thing could also turn interesting with the reaction of his supporters. I was reading about it today and there appears to be supporters that are absolutely, 100%, he must keep the promise to build the Wall and those that believe that it's a just a metaphor about immediately coming down hard on immigration. The Wall is the #1 thing that they want to happen as soon as he gets in.
I ponder about fights between the physical wall true believers and the metaphorical wall true believers. Already seen a few arguments on message boards. Oh and the 100% physical wall believers seem to be the hardcore white nationalists and alt-right and they vowing to HOLD him to this promise using any means necessary. This probably wouldn't be pretty for everyone so I hope it doesn't happenm but I'll admit that there is a part of me that gets some satisfaction in thinking of his hardcore white guy base turning and going after him.
posted by Jalliah at 10:39 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, he has a very serious police force specifically charged to deal with threats to his person. So it would be a win-win situation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am made uneasy by Trump's uneasiness. I mean, I know my drugs and a little bit about narcissism, and I can't see it going in the direction of *Trump now knows there is so much he does not know and he is humbled*. I see it more in the terms of *Trump really wants more drugs* and *Trump will surround himself with people who are too incompetent to know when he's incompetent*
.
He's not humbled. If he's uneasy it just means he has to find a way out of it. He's already surrounding himself with incompetents. He's doing this and will do it no matter what he feels.
posted by Jalliah at 10:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
.
He's not humbled. If he's uneasy it just means he has to find a way out of it. He's already surrounding himself with incompetents. He's doing this and will do it no matter what he feels.
posted by Jalliah at 10:44 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is impressive that's he's pretty consistently choosing a murderer's row of incompetents. It's like for every position, he's asked himself "who would be the least qualified person for this position?" Then he found somebody less qualified but with more name recognition and selected them. I'm mildly surprised that there hasn't been an outcry from the Republicans about some of the names he's floated but I suppose the wing of the party that would object is just as shell shocked as us.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:53 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:53 PM on November 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
"The Wall" is a political disaster. I want him to focus on that because if he doubles down it could easily eat up whatever cooperation exists between him and congress, not to mention months of time he and the GOP won't be doing actual, achievable evil shit.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
re: the wall
who do they think the sub sub sub contractors are going to hire for the actual labor?
posted by j_curiouser at 10:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
who do they think the sub sub sub contractors are going to hire for the actual labor?
posted by j_curiouser at 10:55 PM on November 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Truck drivers from Iowa, obviously.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:56 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:56 PM on November 12, 2016
I will buy the first person who asks on the floor of congress whether or not "The Wall" will use E-Verify the biggest beer they can find
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:58 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's like for every position, he's asked himself "who would be the least qualified person for this position?" Then he found somebody less qualified but with more name recognition and selected them.
And he's not even putting them in the right places. Like, if you were an incompetent picking a position for fellow incompetent Ben Carson, wouldn't you put him up for Surgeon General, not Education Secretary?
who do they think the sub sub sub contractors are going to hire for the actual labor?
The lawsuit about that part gets us to 2020!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
And he's not even putting them in the right places. Like, if you were an incompetent picking a position for fellow incompetent Ben Carson, wouldn't you put him up for Surgeon General, not Education Secretary?
who do they think the sub sub sub contractors are going to hire for the actual labor?
The lawsuit about that part gets us to 2020!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:59 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is impressive that's he's pretty consistently choosing a murderer's row of incompetents. It's like for every position, he's asked himself "who would be the least qualified person for this position?" Then he found somebody less qualified but with more name recognition and selected them. I'm mildly surprised that there hasn't been an outcry from the Republicans about some of the names he's floated but I suppose the wing of the party that would object is just as shell shocked as us.
Talking with a friend we decided that it's as if we got together and after three or four beers decided "Hey just for shits and giggles lets pick the worst and dumbest people for a hypothetical cabinet.' And then our list, written on napkin soaked with spots of stale beer, became real life.
posted by Jalliah at 11:00 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Talking with a friend we decided that it's as if we got together and after three or four beers decided "Hey just for shits and giggles lets pick the worst and dumbest people for a hypothetical cabinet.' And then our list, written on napkin soaked with spots of stale beer, became real life.
posted by Jalliah at 11:00 PM on November 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I will buy the first person who asks on the floor of congress whether or not "The Wall" will use E-Verify the biggest beer they can find
I want a filibuster that involves the Democratic caucus reciting the lyrics to The Wall in call-and-response.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I want a filibuster that involves the Democratic caucus reciting the lyrics to The Wall in call-and-response.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:03 PM on November 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
And he's not even putting them in the right places. Like, if you were an incompetent picking a position for fellow incompetent Ben Carson, wouldn't you put him up for Surgeon General, not Education Secretary?
Beyond being in there as a reward for being a good toady during the election I think he got education because he probably said he wanted it and his 'thing' about education is his whole monitoring Universities and punishing them for liberal speech promise.
posted by Jalliah at 11:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Beyond being in there as a reward for being a good toady during the election I think he got education because he probably said he wanted it and his 'thing' about education is his whole monitoring Universities and punishing them for liberal speech promise.
posted by Jalliah at 11:04 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have a question. Is there any way in the US system that the department of education or the president can order evolution not to be taught in schools? My Mom is convinced that's what Carson is going to do. I told her I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way but not positive.
posted by Jalliah at 11:07 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The wall will build itself, because everyone is shitting bricks.
Shut down the election threads. We're done.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Shut down the election threads. We're done.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Just wait until the new Librarian of Congress, Ann Coulter, names Ted Nugent the Poet Laureate.
[fake, I hope]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
[fake, I hope]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:08 PM on November 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Courage and Other Necessities:
You will need to learn to be self-validating – I have so much to tell you about this – and to stop looking to the faces on the glowing screens to tell you what you believe is good and right and beautiful. You are going to have to defiantly believe it ardently in your own heart, and let it guide your steps.posted by foxfirefey at 11:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [33 favorites]
You will need to do this to be effective, yes. But more fundamentally you will need to do this simply to remain sane.
You are going to see people destroyed for believing what you believe and feeling what you feel. Believe it and feel it anyway. You will see the best and brightest – those who represent every noble thing in your heart – humiliated, mocked, reviled, and savaged by gleeful millions before they are immiserated, impecuniated, imprisoned, tortured, or killed. You will see Aslan sheared for yourself. Cherish those things anyway. You will witness your values falling out of fashion – "the minds that I have loved,// The sort of beauty that I have approved, //Prosper but little [...] For arrogance and hatred are the wares// Peddled in the thoroughfares." Hold them anyway.
This is what "faith" really means. Atheists, pay attention! Not merely "trusting without evidence" – that is the shallow modern shadow of the ancient concept. Faith is loyalty to a commitment. Fidelitas: fidelity. Promising oneself to a cause and not breaking that promise; being true to something or someone, uncompromisingly. You will need much faith. Not the faith of believing in supernatural rescue, the faith of being true to what you love.
You will need to love virtue and that which is good in the world very, very much.
his 'thing' about education is his whole monitoring Universities and punishing them for liberal speech promise
The ensuing lawsuit on that one'll help us get to 2020 too!
I have a question. Is there any way in the US system that the department of education or the president can order evolution not to be taught in schools? My Mom is convinced that's what Carson is going to do. I told her I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way but not positive.
They can try. It'll just end in another Scopes Monkey Trial.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
The ensuing lawsuit on that one'll help us get to 2020 too!
I have a question. Is there any way in the US system that the department of education or the president can order evolution not to be taught in schools? My Mom is convinced that's what Carson is going to do. I told her I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way but not positive.
They can try. It'll just end in another Scopes Monkey Trial.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:09 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thanks that's what I figured but now I can reassure her.
And why do I have the feeling that there are going to be a lot of lawsuits against stuff this admin does?
Hmm...
posted by Jalliah at 11:13 PM on November 12, 2016
Pretty sure "The Wall" means increased scrutiny of non-white travelers at international airports, more harassment of random non-white people domestically, and armed drone surveillance of the Mexican border. It's a metaphor.
posted by monospace at 11:17 PM on November 12, 2016
posted by monospace at 11:17 PM on November 12, 2016
I have a question. Is there any way in the US system that the department of education or the president can order evolution not to be taught in schools?
I suppose they could try to get Congress to pass a law cutting off education funding to States that keep teaching evolution. I don't think this could be done by executive order or administrative ruling.
Maybe also shut down calculus, which is teaching children to believe in the ghosts of departed quantities. It's not Biblical.
posted by thelonius at 11:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suppose they could try to get Congress to pass a law cutting off education funding to States that keep teaching evolution. I don't think this could be done by executive order or administrative ruling.
Maybe also shut down calculus, which is teaching children to believe in the ghosts of departed quantities. It's not Biblical.
posted by thelonius at 11:19 PM on November 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hillary Clinton, a Woman Dogged by Men’s Misdeeds: In the end, even the most powerful female politician in America couldn’t escape the shadow of the male libido.
But we will also never know how much of her candidacy was derailed by the fact of her being female — not just the way she was victimized, but the way she suffered, even, for other women’s victimization.posted by homunculus at 11:25 PM on November 12, 2016 [42 favorites]
And by that, I mean, that her campaign was derailed over and over again by a phenomenon perhaps best characterized as the penis ex machina — the unpredictable and unlikely plot twist provided by men accused of sexual assault or harassment. No fewer than five of these men played crucial roles in handicapping Clinton’s campaign. The most determinative, in the end, was probably Anthony Weiner: Because he allegedly sexted with a 15-year-old girl, the F.B.I. stumbled on a trove of emails they felt compelled to investigate, resulting in headlines, critical lost support (according to her campaign) and ultimately no charges. That Weiner’s sexual exploits most likely cost Clinton precious votes is the bitter coda to a campaign that has been strangely — and somehow appropriately — dominated by men accused of assaulting or harassing women, from Roger Ailes, whose running of Fox News was bent on crushing Clinton, while he was allegedly crushing the women in his employ, to Trump himself.
The campaign also faced unprecedented, unforeseeable challenges from the likes of Julian Assange, the head of WikiLeaks, who has been holed up in the Ecuadorean Embassy in London for more than four years to avoid extradition to Sweden for questioning on rape allegations. And then there is the original penis ex machina, the one that has defined her marriage and, to some degree, her public profile: that of her husband, whose sexual conduct was such that Hillary Clinton could be confronted, at the third debate, with the presence of three of his accusers. For all her discipline and that of her campaign, she could not head off the unruly and unexpected repercussions of the men in or close to her life.
...
During the election, there was hope that all the stories of sexual assault or harassment would at least force members of both parties to consider the gravity of the issue and its shocking prevalence; there was a momentary sense of women rising up to demand better and to refuse to stay silent. And yet even that seemingly noncontroversial issue took on a partisan feel, as Trump supporters dismissed mere “locker room talk.” A brutal lesson of this election, for so many women, may be that there is no escaping the direct or indirect effects of the male libido. Now that Hillary has lost, it is hard to shake the impression that the leches have won.
Given the reception for Farage Flange, a man who has repeatedly failed to win any election for any position where the British electorate gave a shit, I think it's clear that the biggest toadies, cronies and sycophants come straight after family.
(The UK ambassador to Washington, who is ex officio the most senior and capable career diplomat in the FCO -- I wish Obama had broken the opposite precedent that awards nice-city ambassadorships to donors and allies -- is probably still wide awake about this.)
posted by holgate at 11:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
(The UK ambassador to Washington, who is ex officio the most senior and capable career diplomat in the FCO -- I wish Obama had broken the opposite precedent that awards nice-city ambassadorships to donors and allies -- is probably still wide awake about this.)
posted by holgate at 11:30 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I still stand on my previous conclusion that based on his early rhetoric that "I can build this Wall the way I have built my buildings", he intends to get in on the contracting for the construction and take a couple billion off the top. Because he truly believes he can make it pay off for himself.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:37 PM on November 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
he intends to get in on the contracting for the construction and take a couple billion off the top. Because he truly believes he can make it pay off for himself.
Imagine the depositions on that lawsuit!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:39 PM on November 12, 2016
Imagine the depositions on that lawsuit!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:39 PM on November 12, 2016
I have a question: if Cheeto does try to limit trade/become more protectionist, does this not risk the USD'S status as the world's reserve currency? This would be devastating for the US economy, but if he wants to limit trade, why should other countries continue to play nice? It's a very bad idea for him to poke China in the eye.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:47 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:47 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure "The Wall" means increased scrutiny of non-white travelers at international airports, more harassment of random non-white people domestically, and armed drone surveillance of the Mexican border. It's a metaphor.
So it's some kind of...imaginary wall?
Did all the Trump voters know they were voting for a make-believe wall?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:49 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
So it's some kind of...imaginary wall?
Did all the Trump voters know they were voting for a make-believe wall?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:49 PM on November 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thinking? Consequences? Don't be silly. They let you do what you want when you're Trump.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:50 PM on November 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Did all the Trump voters know they were voting for a make-believe wall?
Some did and some didn't. There are a good many Trump supporters who believe that he means a real physical wall and they want one.
posted by Jalliah at 11:58 PM on November 12, 2016
Some did and some didn't. There are a good many Trump supporters who believe that he means a real physical wall and they want one.
posted by Jalliah at 11:58 PM on November 12, 2016
So it's some kind of...imaginary wall?
They know that most illegal immigrants fly in and never leave. Expect more "papers please" crackdowns. "The Wall" is just a sideshow.
posted by monospace at 12:00 AM on November 13, 2016
They know that most illegal immigrants fly in and never leave. Expect more "papers please" crackdowns. "The Wall" is just a sideshow.
posted by monospace at 12:00 AM on November 13, 2016
They know that most illegal immigrants fly in and never leave. Expect more "papers please" crackdowns. "The Wall" is just a sideshow.
No they really don't.
posted by Jalliah at 12:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
does this not risk the USD'S status as the world's reserve currency
I can't help but feel it's this which is going to prove a huge problem if they follow through on so many of their bright ideas going into office. Increased isolationism and acceptance of bad actors throughout the world, abandonment of trade agreements, alliances, climate change denial, protectionism, some of all of these things will be signal an end to US stability economically and otherwise.
Trump sold the wall as a real physical thing in his descriptions of it, so that's what a lot of his supporters demand, though I'm sure they might try to switch it to being metaphorical now they actually have control.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't help but feel it's this which is going to prove a huge problem if they follow through on so many of their bright ideas going into office. Increased isolationism and acceptance of bad actors throughout the world, abandonment of trade agreements, alliances, climate change denial, protectionism, some of all of these things will be signal an end to US stability economically and otherwise.
Trump sold the wall as a real physical thing in his descriptions of it, so that's what a lot of his supporters demand, though I'm sure they might try to switch it to being metaphorical now they actually have control.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
They know that most illegal immigrants fly in and never leave. Expect more "papers please" crackdowns. "The Wall" is just a sideshow.
What if the Senate Democrats fly down to the border and give a "Donald Trump, you will never ever build a literal wall right here on the border!" press conference? Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Duckworth, Catherine Cortez Masto, and Kamala Harris can give the speeches.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
What if the Senate Democrats fly down to the border and give a "Donald Trump, you will never ever build a literal wall right here on the border!" press conference? Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Duckworth, Catherine Cortez Masto, and Kamala Harris can give the speeches.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seems like somebody should ask Mr. Trump whether he means an actual, touchable wall, or some kind of political, pretend-play wall
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seems like somebody should ask Mr. Trump whether he means an actual, touchable wall, or some kind of political, pretend-play wall
And you expect a straight answer?
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 AM on November 13, 2016
And you expect a straight answer?
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 AM on November 13, 2016
...and who cares? It's gonna be beautiful and Mexico is gonna pay for it.
posted by Namlit at 12:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 12:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
At one time he did say that it would be up to 50ft and cast in concrete. I think he changed his mind on that and it became smaller. Not sure and can't find if he did say that.
posted by Jalliah at 12:11 AM on November 13, 2016
>>Seems like somebody should ask Mr. Trump whether he means an actual, touchable wall, or some kind of political, pretend-play wall
And you expect a straight answer?
Not necessarily. "A non-answer that causes his supporters to start fighting bitterly with each other" would also be acceptable!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
And you expect a straight answer?
Not necessarily. "A non-answer that causes his supporters to start fighting bitterly with each other" would also be acceptable!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
Seems like somebody should ask Mr. Trump whether he means an actual, touchable wall, or some kind of political, pretend-play wall
And you expect a straight answer?
Some reporters already tried to question him and his staff on that point, and, as expected, they answered both ways at different times, so I guess it'll be a beautiful concrete physical metaphor.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
And you expect a straight answer?
Some reporters already tried to question him and his staff on that point, and, as expected, they answered both ways at different times, so I guess it'll be a beautiful concrete physical metaphor.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just found out it's in the actual official platform.
The border wall must cover the entirety of the southern border and must be sufficient to stop both vehicular and pedestrian traffic,”
But Rick Perry says it may be a 'digital wall".
It's a mystery I guess.
posted by Jalliah at 12:18 AM on November 13, 2016
The border wall must cover the entirety of the southern border and must be sufficient to stop both vehicular and pedestrian traffic,”
But Rick Perry says it may be a 'digital wall".
It's a mystery I guess.
posted by Jalliah at 12:18 AM on November 13, 2016
How they get around the "lock her up" stuff as metaphor will be a little more difficult for them. I wonder how the base will react to that, since a Clinton show trial wouldn't go well for Trump I think.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:19 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by gusottertrout at 12:19 AM on November 13, 2016
Trump will probably start using Congress as an excuse for anything he can't do. My hands are tied. Paul Ryan won't let me do it. *shrug*
posted by Jalliah at 12:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
some of all of these things will be signal an end to US stability economically and otherwise.
The Chinese pitch is going to be "hey, if you're fine with market authoritarianism, then at least we provide a rigorous training scheme and we already have a plan for the rest of the century."
posted by holgate at 12:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Chinese pitch is going to be "hey, if you're fine with market authoritarianism, then at least we provide a rigorous training scheme and we already have a plan for the rest of the century."
posted by holgate at 12:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jalliah: Doing that a lot starts to erode his straight talking tough guy image pretty quickly if he starts saying he can't do things. I mean, sure, his supporters will go with it for a while and blame whoever, but his whole shtick is tied to him being an outsider, draining the swamp, making deals and getting things done no one else would do. If he can't deliver there isn't much of anything else he can bring to the table except tweets.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 12:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
there isn't much of anything else he can bring to the table except tweets.
Some poor asshole in NSA IT is having to build a President-safe smartphone that can access twitter right this very second, I'll bet.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some poor asshole in NSA IT is having to build a President-safe smartphone that can access twitter right this very second, I'll bet.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
This whole thing is so fucking surreal. The rest of the world just watched the USA play Russian roulette with itself, and lose. Unbelievable. Bad, bad times ahead. USA is off the rails, can't regulate itself (crashed world economy) and now has elected a semi-literate fascist. If that fucking wall does get physically built, it will be to keep American refugees from fleeing to Mexico.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
People have suugested Obama should pardon Hillary, but I wonder if that is a bad move. If they do go after her it could create a lot of negative attention and stir up even more protest, distracting them from running the country.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:40 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:40 AM on November 13, 2016
Perhaps it will be a group of mimes all along the border creating a giant invisible wall.
In other news, if I was Lorne Michaela, I would pointedly spend the next four years running the show as if Clinton won the election. Like set the show in the Bernstein universe instead of this painful Bernstain universe.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
In other news, if I was Lorne Michaela, I would pointedly spend the next four years running the show as if Clinton won the election. Like set the show in the Bernstein universe instead of this painful Bernstain universe.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
My feeling is that the Democrats should not even think about pursuing impeachment unless there is evidence of wrongdoing so strong as to prove airtight, like nothing short of a video showing him giving Putin and blowjob while handing over state secrets or something, and instead go after as many of his incompetent appointees as they can one after another to keep him weak. You don't want to make a Bill Clinton hero out of the guy to those who voted for him if you can show him up as ineffectual instead. Make the Republicans worry about what he's doing to the party, and permanently damage every one of the schmucks he selects for the cabinet so we never have to see them again.
I'll be curious to see how many big corporations start looking into relocating much of their holdings outside the US and maybe set up more offices in Hong Kong if things do go badly with the economy. They've already pegged China as their next big investment opportunity, so if they can find some compliance on that end, I wouldn't be surprised if they take it to the next step. Risky in some ways undoubtedly, but staying in a market that's crashing would be too.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:52 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'll be curious to see how many big corporations start looking into relocating much of their holdings outside the US and maybe set up more offices in Hong Kong if things do go badly with the economy. They've already pegged China as their next big investment opportunity, so if they can find some compliance on that end, I wouldn't be surprised if they take it to the next step. Risky in some ways undoubtedly, but staying in a market that's crashing would be too.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:52 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
The Republicans are spineless. If it's like anything like Walker and Wisconsin, they'll just make any corrupt stuff retroactively legal and disband any organization supposed to investigate.
posted by Zalzidrax at 1:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Zalzidrax at 1:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah I kind of figure anything Trump does that's illegal will be praised s being in the service of pissing off liberals and praised including outhe right treason. That will teach us for hurting the fee-fees of poor defenseless racists. Trollocracy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't know if this has been linked already but wow ... Joe Addresses The Media Blindspot Covering Donald Trump's Chance At Presidency | Morning Joe | MSNBC
Joe being Morning Joe Scarborough.
posted by philip-random at 1:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Joe being Morning Joe Scarborough.
posted by philip-random at 1:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'll be curious to see how many big corporations start looking into relocating much of their holdings outside the US and maybe set up more offices in Hong Kong if things do go badly with the economy. They've already pegged China as their next big investment opportunity, so if they can find some compliance on that end, I wouldn't be surprised if they take it to the next step.
I wouldn't be surprised if this happened. China's economy is about to surpass USAs this year and triple USAs in the next 25. China and Japan are now trading with each other in non-USD, and as of 2015, China now has one of the world's accepted reserve currencies.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 1:41 AM on November 13, 2016
I wouldn't be surprised if this happened. China's economy is about to surpass USAs this year and triple USAs in the next 25. China and Japan are now trading with each other in non-USD, and as of 2015, China now has one of the world's accepted reserve currencies.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 1:41 AM on November 13, 2016
It was nice to see something like this at The Globe And Mail: Trigger warning, Trump fans: This column calls racists ‘racists’
The entire thing is worth a read, really.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [61 favorites]
We were to understand that “real America” is found at a Trump rally. Those rallies were somehow more authentically American than, say, a Black Lives Matter protest, a college classroom, a gay pride parade, or even a state fair. A man shouting “Jew-S-A!” was to be taken as some kind of white working-class sphinx, asking us to solve the riddle of his true feelings.
That man’s life just had to be given enough context, apparently, and then his anti-Semitism and the raging sexism of the man shouting “Trump that bitch!” next to him, would become benign. Assign their anger a source – and never question the legitimacy of that emotion. Tell us one of these guys is behind on his car payments and the other loves curly fries and everything becomes alright.
[...]
That these people are adults who are accountable for their choices was largely taken as an unduly harsh sentiment in this election. But there is no parent’s note for bigotry. No teacher would accept “Little Timmy can’t help but hate Mexicans today because he had a dentist appointment.”
The entire thing is worth a read, really.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [61 favorites]
On Radio New Zealand, an interview with Ricardo Menendez (7m15s), a New Zealander with family in Tijuana, about the effects of the election on Mexicans.
posted by XMLicious at 1:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 1:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
And that's why he is looking so miserable. This isn't going to be fun for him at all.
the stress is going to kill him
---
People have suugested Obama should pardon Hillary, but I wonder if that is a bad move.
he should pardon donnie, too - that would be a truly sick burn
posted by pyramid termite at 2:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
the stress is going to kill him
---
People have suugested Obama should pardon Hillary, but I wonder if that is a bad move.
he should pardon donnie, too - that would be a truly sick burn
posted by pyramid termite at 2:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Nation: "Inequality Between Women Is Crucial to Understanding Hillary’s Loss"
Class differences among women are an all but taboo subject. But scholars such as Leslie McCall have found that economic inequality among women is just as large, and has been growing just as fast, as economic inequality among men. This economic divide among women has created one of the most significant fault lines in contemporary feminism. That’s because professional-class women, who have reaped a disproportionate share of feminism’s gains, have dominated the feminist movement, and the social distance between them and their less privileged sisters is wide and growing wider. In the decades since the dawn of the second wave, educated women gained access to status jobs, but working-class women experienced declining wages and (because of the rise of divorce and single parenthood among the working class) shouldered an increasingly heavy burden of care. Yet mainstream feminist groups and pundits have consistently stressed the social and cultural issues that are most important to affluent women, while marginalizing the economic concerns of the female masses.
...
In these white working-class communities, it is the women who have experienced some of the worst hardships. You may have heard of that famous study that showed that showed an unprecedented decline in longevity among white Americans who lack college degrees. But most media reports missed a crucial point: As the statistician Andrew Gelman pointed out, “Since 2005, mortality rates have increased among women in this group but not men.” And in addition to economic insecurity and rising mortality rates, working-class women have suffered from another indignity: invisibility. During the campaign, there was a blizzard of articles about the concerns of elite Republican women and white working-class men, but practically nothing about female members of the working class.
...
As Alec MacGillis tweeted, “Can’t overstate how much anti-big media scorn’s driving this [support for Trump].” The white working class is keenly aware that liberal elites despise them, thank you very much. And one thing elitist liberals overlook is that the white working-class racism they rightly abhor is itself exacerbated by a failing economy (studies have shown that racism flourishes during bad economic times).
...
Working-class whites are approximately one-third of the electorate.The Democrats will not be able to win national elections without peeling off more of their votes. Obviously, progressives should never make appeals to these voters’ racism and sexism (leave that to the Republicans). But we do have at least one powerful basis for common ground: economics.
White working-class women appear to be more open than men are to progressive appeals (62 percent of them voted for Trump, as opposed to 72 percent of their male counterparts). That suggests that the most promising path forward would be to agitate for a robust economic agenda focused on women’s needs: a $15 minimum wage, universal child care and pre-K, paid family leave, free college, and tough laws that crack down on wage theft and guarantee fair scheduling and equal pay for women. One of the strengths of such an agenda is that its appeal is hardly limited to women. In our brave new economy, increasing numbers of men now labor under the kinds of precarious working conditions—low wages, minimal benefits, little if any security—that have traditionally characterized women’s employment. Policies like these would help the men, too. They would not be not just righteous, but politically pragmatic.
But it’s not only the Democratic Party that is badly in need of reform. The feminist movement, too, needs to reorient itself. Feminists would be well-advised to ease up on pop culture navel-gazing and corporate pseudo-feminist drivel like Lean In. They need to shift their central focus from the glass ceiling to the sticky floor, which, after all, is the place where most women dwell. A feminism that delivers for working-class women by addressing their material needs could expand feminism’s base and bring about a much-needed feminist revival. A feminism that delivers for working-class women by addressing their material needs could radically expand feminism’s base. And should feminism once again become a vibrant bottom-up mass movement instead of a top-down elite concern, there’s no telling how far it could go.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:00 AM on November 13, 2016 [22 favorites]
Class differences among women are an all but taboo subject. But scholars such as Leslie McCall have found that economic inequality among women is just as large, and has been growing just as fast, as economic inequality among men. This economic divide among women has created one of the most significant fault lines in contemporary feminism. That’s because professional-class women, who have reaped a disproportionate share of feminism’s gains, have dominated the feminist movement, and the social distance between them and their less privileged sisters is wide and growing wider. In the decades since the dawn of the second wave, educated women gained access to status jobs, but working-class women experienced declining wages and (because of the rise of divorce and single parenthood among the working class) shouldered an increasingly heavy burden of care. Yet mainstream feminist groups and pundits have consistently stressed the social and cultural issues that are most important to affluent women, while marginalizing the economic concerns of the female masses.
...
In these white working-class communities, it is the women who have experienced some of the worst hardships. You may have heard of that famous study that showed that showed an unprecedented decline in longevity among white Americans who lack college degrees. But most media reports missed a crucial point: As the statistician Andrew Gelman pointed out, “Since 2005, mortality rates have increased among women in this group but not men.” And in addition to economic insecurity and rising mortality rates, working-class women have suffered from another indignity: invisibility. During the campaign, there was a blizzard of articles about the concerns of elite Republican women and white working-class men, but practically nothing about female members of the working class.
...
As Alec MacGillis tweeted, “Can’t overstate how much anti-big media scorn’s driving this [support for Trump].” The white working class is keenly aware that liberal elites despise them, thank you very much. And one thing elitist liberals overlook is that the white working-class racism they rightly abhor is itself exacerbated by a failing economy (studies have shown that racism flourishes during bad economic times).
...
Working-class whites are approximately one-third of the electorate.The Democrats will not be able to win national elections without peeling off more of their votes. Obviously, progressives should never make appeals to these voters’ racism and sexism (leave that to the Republicans). But we do have at least one powerful basis for common ground: economics.
White working-class women appear to be more open than men are to progressive appeals (62 percent of them voted for Trump, as opposed to 72 percent of their male counterparts). That suggests that the most promising path forward would be to agitate for a robust economic agenda focused on women’s needs: a $15 minimum wage, universal child care and pre-K, paid family leave, free college, and tough laws that crack down on wage theft and guarantee fair scheduling and equal pay for women. One of the strengths of such an agenda is that its appeal is hardly limited to women. In our brave new economy, increasing numbers of men now labor under the kinds of precarious working conditions—low wages, minimal benefits, little if any security—that have traditionally characterized women’s employment. Policies like these would help the men, too. They would not be not just righteous, but politically pragmatic.
But it’s not only the Democratic Party that is badly in need of reform. The feminist movement, too, needs to reorient itself. Feminists would be well-advised to ease up on pop culture navel-gazing and corporate pseudo-feminist drivel like Lean In. They need to shift their central focus from the glass ceiling to the sticky floor, which, after all, is the place where most women dwell. A feminism that delivers for working-class women by addressing their material needs could expand feminism’s base and bring about a much-needed feminist revival. A feminism that delivers for working-class women by addressing their material needs could radically expand feminism’s base. And should feminism once again become a vibrant bottom-up mass movement instead of a top-down elite concern, there’s no telling how far it could go.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:00 AM on November 13, 2016 [22 favorites]
Klaxon Aoooogah: This whole thing is so fucking surreal. The rest of the world just watched the USA play Russian roulette with itself, and lose.
And we didn't enjoy it one bit.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
And we didn't enjoy it one bit.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
That suggests that the most promising path forward would be to agitate for a robust economic agenda focused on women’s needs: a $15 minimum wage, universal child care and pre-K, paid family leave, free college, and tough laws that crack down on wage theft and guarantee fair scheduling and equal pay for women
Am I living in a bizarro world where the Democrats aren't doing this? Sure it was a $12 minimum wage, and increased subsidies for childcare to cap costs, and debt free, rather than free college, but this just reads like Hillary's website, taken a half step further in some cases.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [42 favorites]
Am I living in a bizarro world where the Democrats aren't doing this? Sure it was a $12 minimum wage, and increased subsidies for childcare to cap costs, and debt free, rather than free college, but this just reads like Hillary's website, taken a half step further in some cases.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 3:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [42 favorites]
Most low-information voters are not going to be looking up candidate websites. It looks like she did mention these policies in her economic speech in Michigan in August 2016, but was it really front and center in the campaign?
posted by Apocryphon at 3:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 3:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
That suggests that the most promising path forward would be to agitate for a robust economic agenda focused on women’s needs: a $15 minimum wage, universal child care and pre-K, paid family leave, free college, and tough laws that crack down on wage theft and guarantee fair scheduling and equal pay for women.
Hmm, that all sounds awfully familiar, almost as if that was Clinton's platform, yet those women didn't vote for it. Progressive economics are great, no argument there. The problem lies in getting people to actually vote for their interests.
Set aside economics for a moment and think about climate change. The Democrats have been arguing for decades it needs to be addressed more forcefully as that's what almost every scientist looking at the problem says, yet, repeatedly people are elected who do not even believe climate change is real. Voters ignore the science, ignore the politicians running on addressing the problem, and ignore everyone else who talks about the real danger climate change poses for everyone in order to listen to those who tell people what they want to hear.
The problem might not be the policies, but the people who refuse to listen. All these think pieces talking about providing these people solutions through some policy or another are ignoring their agency in choosing to ignore the solutions for unrealistic promises and flat out lies.
On preview, what Bulgaroktonos said, though it was 15$ an hour in the platform and the paid leave and other goodies were there too.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hmm, that all sounds awfully familiar, almost as if that was Clinton's platform, yet those women didn't vote for it. Progressive economics are great, no argument there. The problem lies in getting people to actually vote for their interests.
Set aside economics for a moment and think about climate change. The Democrats have been arguing for decades it needs to be addressed more forcefully as that's what almost every scientist looking at the problem says, yet, repeatedly people are elected who do not even believe climate change is real. Voters ignore the science, ignore the politicians running on addressing the problem, and ignore everyone else who talks about the real danger climate change poses for everyone in order to listen to those who tell people what they want to hear.
The problem might not be the policies, but the people who refuse to listen. All these think pieces talking about providing these people solutions through some policy or another are ignoring their agency in choosing to ignore the solutions for unrealistic promises and flat out lies.
On preview, what Bulgaroktonos said, though it was 15$ an hour in the platform and the paid leave and other goodies were there too.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
In the media, the only things front and center were whatever Trump tweeted or yelled on any given day and a non-existent email "scandal". Clinton mentioned the policies over and over, but the media chose to hype the other stuff instead.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 3:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [42 favorites]
Most low-information voters are not going to be looking up candidate websites. It looks like she did mention these policies in her economic speech in Michigan in August 2016, but was it really front and center in the campaign?
Trump, front and centre:
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:47 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Trump, front and centre:
... At every moment when the Trump tribe streamed behind him on to the convention stage or the tarmac, America saw images of a Kardashian Camelot: a phalanx of GQ men and leggy, gorgeous women following the heavy set guy who had a private 757 plane and a gold tower with his name on it.More here
While commentators sniggered, millions saw the all-American success they dreamed of. They rooted for the guy who had it but was despised by the elites for having it. There are more tired wives who want to be Melania sitting by the pool in designer sunglasses than there are women who want to pursue a PhD in earnest self-improvement. And there are more young women who see the smartness and modernity of Ivanka as the ultimate polished specimen of blonde branded content they want to buy.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:47 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
The problem might not be the policies, but the people who refuse to listen. All these think pieces talking about providing these people solutions through some policy or another are ignoring their agency in choosing to ignore the solutions for unrealistic promises and flat out lies.
Yes. I mean, yes-- the so-called white working class (I honestly really hate that term-- what's a better way to describe them?) could use more progressive economics and I also agree that the women are more inclined to listen. (My hometown friends and family could easily feature in one of these wide-eyed elegaic articles which are currently appearing all over the press.) Of the people in my hometown circle, the ones who broke ranks and voted Clinton were (with one exception) all women.
I am starting to get a little annoyed, tho, at people treating this voting group as though they are intellectually fragile and unable to make decisions for themselves. It's borderline disrespectful. The decline of these areas was already well underway when I was a child-- the last generation of small farmers were all dying, it paid better to let land go fallow and sell than it did to farm, the factories and industry were shrinking or closing down, and this was in the 1980s. The writing was already on the wall way back then. And, you know, my parents didn't have any college and neither did most of the adults around me, but somehow they managed to read newspapers and watch the news and make their own decisions without the benefit of a college degree. All of which suggests to me that they can do the same today.
In the area where I am from, there are actually increasing opportunities in tech not *too* very far away (1 - 1.5 hour drive, maybe?) and there are even some factories opening up not too far away either. (One of the Chobani factories is nearby.) And you would think these would be seen as positives, but somehow, they aren't; I get it about the tech jobs-- these are first generation college attendees here. However, it's difficult to argue with Chobani's progressive creds as an employer, but I can tell you they aren't universally loved. I've gotten into huge arguments with a cousin who *seriously* believes that Chobani is taking advantage of the depression of the area to "import terrorism into the US". As far as I can tell, his information is seemingly entirely based on the fact that Ulukaya is brown and has a funny last name. The last we spoke he sent me some Breitbart-ish article about how Chobani success was coming through the Clinton foundation because they were undermining America. Because I don't know why.
Which is to say that there are *genuine* economic issues which motivate this voting group, but there are also big intersectional issues around race and gender which are at play as well. At least the folks I know don't just want a good solution today, they want something "back" which is more than just economic. They want an identity back which touches on both their whiteness and their masculinity. In this way the women are much easier to reach, because there's less masculine pride at play, and I honestly think that more of the women in this segment broke Trump for more strictly economic issues-- they're feeling burdened by ACA, specifically. But I think for a lot of these folks, they would prefer to believe Trump promises which speak to their identity than they would listen to progressive economic policy coming from someone who refuses to lie to them. Trump tells them that the damage can be undone, and it cannot, of course. But they would like to believe it could. Shall the left start lying to them too?
(I mean, like many a refugee from these towns, my opinion may be suspect. When you grow up there, it's easy to be acutely aware of the toxicity in the attitudes and environment. I fled at 17 and have never gone back for longer than short Christmas breaks ever since.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [35 favorites]
Yes. I mean, yes-- the so-called white working class (I honestly really hate that term-- what's a better way to describe them?) could use more progressive economics and I also agree that the women are more inclined to listen. (My hometown friends and family could easily feature in one of these wide-eyed elegaic articles which are currently appearing all over the press.) Of the people in my hometown circle, the ones who broke ranks and voted Clinton were (with one exception) all women.
I am starting to get a little annoyed, tho, at people treating this voting group as though they are intellectually fragile and unable to make decisions for themselves. It's borderline disrespectful. The decline of these areas was already well underway when I was a child-- the last generation of small farmers were all dying, it paid better to let land go fallow and sell than it did to farm, the factories and industry were shrinking or closing down, and this was in the 1980s. The writing was already on the wall way back then. And, you know, my parents didn't have any college and neither did most of the adults around me, but somehow they managed to read newspapers and watch the news and make their own decisions without the benefit of a college degree. All of which suggests to me that they can do the same today.
In the area where I am from, there are actually increasing opportunities in tech not *too* very far away (1 - 1.5 hour drive, maybe?) and there are even some factories opening up not too far away either. (One of the Chobani factories is nearby.) And you would think these would be seen as positives, but somehow, they aren't; I get it about the tech jobs-- these are first generation college attendees here. However, it's difficult to argue with Chobani's progressive creds as an employer, but I can tell you they aren't universally loved. I've gotten into huge arguments with a cousin who *seriously* believes that Chobani is taking advantage of the depression of the area to "import terrorism into the US". As far as I can tell, his information is seemingly entirely based on the fact that Ulukaya is brown and has a funny last name. The last we spoke he sent me some Breitbart-ish article about how Chobani success was coming through the Clinton foundation because they were undermining America. Because I don't know why.
Which is to say that there are *genuine* economic issues which motivate this voting group, but there are also big intersectional issues around race and gender which are at play as well. At least the folks I know don't just want a good solution today, they want something "back" which is more than just economic. They want an identity back which touches on both their whiteness and their masculinity. In this way the women are much easier to reach, because there's less masculine pride at play, and I honestly think that more of the women in this segment broke Trump for more strictly economic issues-- they're feeling burdened by ACA, specifically. But I think for a lot of these folks, they would prefer to believe Trump promises which speak to their identity than they would listen to progressive economic policy coming from someone who refuses to lie to them. Trump tells them that the damage can be undone, and it cannot, of course. But they would like to believe it could. Shall the left start lying to them too?
(I mean, like many a refugee from these towns, my opinion may be suspect. When you grow up there, it's easy to be acutely aware of the toxicity in the attitudes and environment. I fled at 17 and have never gone back for longer than short Christmas breaks ever since.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [35 favorites]
Even though, in the digital age, there was no bigger Trump lie than pretending manufacturing jobs will ever return, Rust Belt women and plenty of others saw him as the rough, tough boss who would bring the business back, and with it the manhood of the sad guy they love.
For many elections, Democrats have accused Republicans of peddling false promises and impossible plans. But maybe people want to be lied to, if the lie comforts them. Everything since Reagan indicates that.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
For many elections, Democrats have accused Republicans of peddling false promises and impossible plans. But maybe people want to be lied to, if the lie comforts them. Everything since Reagan indicates that.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
The left needs a news network
Bleftbart.
You can have the name. I would love if this became real.
posted by p3t3 at 4:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
Bleftbart.
You can have the name. I would love if this became real.
posted by p3t3 at 4:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
But maybe people want to be lied to, if the lie comforts them. Everything since Reagan indicates that.
On Trumpland...
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
On Trumpland...
... the Americans – or many of them – remain a warm and optimistic people. They hope for the best. That may be their downfall. They are addicted to films, and prefer national mythologies with happy endings. The one I would propose for your further study at this time is called The Wizard of Oz."Good luck, Dorothy", Margaret Attwood
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Aren't there any concerted mainstream efforts to stop trump from assuming the presidency? Foreign influence of our election? The fact that he's about to be sued for 1,836 different things? Nothing? I keep looking for some high level action on this and I see nothing of substance. So the entire world is just gonna shrug and say 'oh well thems the breaks'? I'm confused.
posted by ian1977 at 5:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 5:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The problem might not be the policies, but the people who refuse to listen. All these think pieces talking about providing these people solutions through some policy or another are ignoring their agency in choosing to ignore the solutions for unrealistic promises and flat out lies.
And rather than catering to these people, many of whom will remain willfully uninformed, we have to inspire their counterparts who just didn't show up where they needed to. The biggest fear I have for a coalition moving forward (after raw existential terror and genuine fear that the whole American Project has just been permanently fucked) is that this campaign's actual progressive policies will be dropped because they "didn't win."
Trump voters DID NOT PAY ATTENTION TO POLICY if it couldn't be chanted. They cannot be won over by changing policy. A plurality of Americans voted for pragmatic, technocratic, progressive, incremental policy.
Plenty of Dems were probably phoning it in as much as their counterparts, plenty of them "held their noses" and voted for a candidate they didn't much like, precisely *because* that candidate presented them--us--with stability, a figure to work with. They presented a set of mostly non-controversial, logical policies that we thought didn't go far enough--or in some cases were flat-out wrong-headed, but they represented a government that could be influenced and reasoned with.
That is now burned to the ground, but just because that candidate lost doesn't mean those were losing policies.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
And rather than catering to these people, many of whom will remain willfully uninformed, we have to inspire their counterparts who just didn't show up where they needed to. The biggest fear I have for a coalition moving forward (after raw existential terror and genuine fear that the whole American Project has just been permanently fucked) is that this campaign's actual progressive policies will be dropped because they "didn't win."
Trump voters DID NOT PAY ATTENTION TO POLICY if it couldn't be chanted. They cannot be won over by changing policy. A plurality of Americans voted for pragmatic, technocratic, progressive, incremental policy.
Plenty of Dems were probably phoning it in as much as their counterparts, plenty of them "held their noses" and voted for a candidate they didn't much like, precisely *because* that candidate presented them--us--with stability, a figure to work with. They presented a set of mostly non-controversial, logical policies that we thought didn't go far enough--or in some cases were flat-out wrong-headed, but they represented a government that could be influenced and reasoned with.
That is now burned to the ground, but just because that candidate lost doesn't mean those were losing policies.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
ian1977:
here's a series of tweets I made regarding Trump ascending to the presidency and what I see coming.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
here's a series of tweets I made regarding Trump ascending to the presidency and what I see coming.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
So the entire world is just gonna shrug and say 'oh well thems the breaks'? I'm confused.
How would they do it?
posted by drezdn at 6:00 AM on November 13, 2016
How would they do it?
posted by drezdn at 6:00 AM on November 13, 2016
Dig deep into his Putin connection and have a congressional hearing to invalidate the election but let the winning party select a replacement. No?
posted by ian1977 at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it's entirely possible that things are happening that we can't see -- if Trump truly is a Russian stooge, as I think very likely, that must be common knowledge at the national security and intelligence levels.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Thirding the excellent knowledge drop from h-dogg above on Joy Ann Reid slapping the shit out of Trump-Voting Racist Uncle Dave At Thanksgiving
You have also lost the notion of an exceptional America. Because as it turns out, we're just another western nation falling into the ethno-national forces sweeping across Europe, from Brexit in the UK to France's Marie Le Pen. Fuelled and "egged on" by the Russians and feeding on the fear of non-white and non-Christian immigrants. We, as it turns out, are not so different after all.
boom.
And my friends in the media who are rushing to normalize Trump, who are blithely calling, on parents and teachers of scared Muslim and Latino kids and little girls and boys of color, to come together and accept what's happening while Donald Trump ushers in an emboldened KKK and an Alt-right that will soon have a place in the White House: please remember that nothing has changed about Donald Trump. . .
He's still the historically unpopular personality still under investigation for Trump University, whose Foundation was revealed to be a sham of self-dealing, whose campaign, the Washington Post reports, was in direct contact with Russian authorities, and who is in unknown amounts of debt to unknown foreign entities in a way we've never seen before in a President.
BOOM
I recommend watching the video as the transcript oddly misses a lot of the good parts.
posted by petebest at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
You have also lost the notion of an exceptional America. Because as it turns out, we're just another western nation falling into the ethno-national forces sweeping across Europe, from Brexit in the UK to France's Marie Le Pen. Fuelled and "egged on" by the Russians and feeding on the fear of non-white and non-Christian immigrants. We, as it turns out, are not so different after all.
boom.
And my friends in the media who are rushing to normalize Trump, who are blithely calling, on parents and teachers of scared Muslim and Latino kids and little girls and boys of color, to come together and accept what's happening while Donald Trump ushers in an emboldened KKK and an Alt-right that will soon have a place in the White House: please remember that nothing has changed about Donald Trump. . .
He's still the historically unpopular personality still under investigation for Trump University, whose Foundation was revealed to be a sham of self-dealing, whose campaign, the Washington Post reports, was in direct contact with Russian authorities, and who is in unknown amounts of debt to unknown foreign entities in a way we've never seen before in a President.
BOOM
I recommend watching the video as the transcript oddly misses a lot of the good parts.
posted by petebest at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
Common knowledge at the fbi who seemed intent on giving him the election. :/
Maybe his Putin connection is a feature. :(
posted by ian1977 at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2016
Maybe his Putin connection is a feature. :(
posted by ian1977 at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2016
Dig deep into his Putin connection and have a congressional hearing to invalidate the election but let the winning party select a replacement. No?
The US Constitution does not allow Congress to do anything that ad hoc.
posted by ocschwar at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The US Constitution does not allow Congress to do anything that ad hoc.
posted by ocschwar at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's entirely possible that various parties are preparing their cases, and those things take time. But speaking to Congressional hearings specifically—seems like the main obstacle to that would be the fact that Republicans in the House and Senate are afraid of the Tea Party/Trumpist base that controls whether they're elected or not. That's been the case since at least 2010, and it's why there wasn't more pushback against Trump from his own party. I can't see those same people—who will now be the majority in both houses in Congresses—voluntarily setting up hearings against the guy basically controlling their political futures.
posted by Rykey at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Rykey at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2016
FBI, GOP & RUSSIA. CATCH THE FEVER
posted by petebest at 6:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by petebest at 6:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well at the very least I hope the so called 'non deplorable' trump voters (an oxymoron?) are getting a deep sense of shame this week watching what is happening and the outcries and pain and anguish and fear.
posted by ian1977 at 6:25 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by ian1977 at 6:25 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh, lord. Someone please disable Donald's access to Twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:30 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:30 AM on November 13, 2016
He just can't help himself can he? Beyond being a complete asshole he has a serious impulse control problem.
posted by ian1977 at 6:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 6:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
the so-called white working class (I honestly really hate that term-- what's a better way to describe them?)
Whites/anglos without degrees.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whites/anglos without degrees.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
We're in an era where people coin their own grandiose memes about themselves. "It's a movement!" "I'm a phenomenon!"
I'm still not saying his name (my goal is to go the full four years), and it gives me some small comfort.
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm still not saying his name (my goal is to go the full four years), and it gives me some small comfort.
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Joe the plumbers?
posted by ian1977 at 6:35 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 6:35 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Final american article by Dan Roberts from the Guardian who spent two years on the campaign trail which revealed an America forgotten in the bicoastal media bubble, leaving him unsurprised when Hillary Clinton was beaten
posted by adamvasco at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well at the very least I hope the so called 'non deplorable' trump voters (an oxymoron?) are getting a deep sense of shame this week watching what is happening and the outcries and pain and anguish and fear.
All I've seen from people I know on social media is denial that the various intimidation incidents are actually happening or are connected to Trump, both-sides-sim (e.g "Trump supporters have been threatened with violence too"/"look at the violent protests"), and defensiveness against the idea that Trump's support is in any way connected to racism.
posted by stopgap at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
All I've seen from people I know on social media is denial that the various intimidation incidents are actually happening or are connected to Trump, both-sides-sim (e.g "Trump supporters have been threatened with violence too"/"look at the violent protests"), and defensiveness against the idea that Trump's support is in any way connected to racism.
posted by stopgap at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
From the Guardian article: “I think Trump is nuts, but I’d love to have him as a president to see what happens.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Why are you so worried? Nothing is going to change for you personally."
"Martin Niemöller."
"Who?"
"'First they came'..."
"First who came?"
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Socialist."
"Socialism is what's wrong with this country."
"Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade Unionist."
"Don't even get me started on the unions..."
"Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew."
"If you really want to know where all the money and power are..."
"Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
"I don't understand."
"I know."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [79 favorites]
"Martin Niemöller."
"Who?"
"'First they came'..."
"First who came?"
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Socialist."
"Socialism is what's wrong with this country."
"Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade Unionist."
"Don't even get me started on the unions..."
"Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew."
"If you really want to know where all the money and power are..."
"Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
"I don't understand."
"I know."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [79 favorites]
Laura Ingraham for WH press secretary-- because in Trumpland the only thing that matters is loyalty. Gee, I wonder which position they will offer to Sean Hannity? Ambassador to France? WH communications director?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh, lord. Someone please disable Donald's access to Twitter.
And deny me the twiitterings of the entertainer-in-chief? That's not fair.
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:44 AM on November 13, 2016
And deny me the twiitterings of the entertainer-in-chief? That's not fair.
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:44 AM on November 13, 2016
Trump is just making this up, right? "The @nytimes sent a letter to their subscribers apologizing for their BAD coverage of me. I wonder if it will change - doubt it?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe someone should just make a mock Twitter that he thinks is being viewed by he world and he'd sit confused why no one is reacting to him.
posted by ian1977 at 6:45 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by ian1977 at 6:45 AM on November 13, 2016
Hey maybe that's what those Macedonian teenagers can do now that the election's over - they can be the audience in Trump's mock Twitter.
posted by sporkwort at 6:48 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by sporkwort at 6:48 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
They probably meant they were apologizing for their bad coverage of him that helped normalize trump.
posted by ian1977 at 6:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 6:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
All I've seen from people I know on social media is denial that the various intimidation incidents are actually happening or are connected to Trump, both-sides-sim (e.g "Trump supporters have been threatened with violence too"/"look at the violent protests"), and defensiveness against the idea that Trump's support is in any way connected to racism.
Plus there is a concerted propaganda effort to dismiss any incident where there is definitive prove such as people yelling Trump or writing Trump is that it is Hillary or George Soros is paying people to do these things. They're trying to undermine Donald and make his supporter look bad.
They're also paying for the protests.
And yes people are believing that as well.
I expect Hillary and Soros are going to be paying for a lot of anti stuff over the coming years.
posted by Jalliah at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sigh. The darkest timeline indeed.
posted by ian1977 at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oglaf: I'm struggling to make sense of this.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
anyone else having trouble figuring out how to deal with trump supporting coworkers without getting fired????
posted by ian1977 at 6:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 6:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Plus there is a concerted propaganda effort to dismiss any incident where there is definitive prove such as people yelling Trump or writing Trump is that it is Hillary or George Soros is paying people to do these things. They're trying to undermine Donald and make his supporter look bad."
Yeah. Especially Soros. The rich Jewish guy the Trump campaign featured (along with others) in his "Global conspiracy" ad. There's no racism happening here! Also the Jews did it!
posted by Mchelly at 6:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah. Especially Soros. The rich Jewish guy the Trump campaign featured (along with others) in his "Global conspiracy" ad. There's no racism happening here! Also the Jews did it!
posted by Mchelly at 6:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
You know I just want to say that I'm just tickled pink that there is a candidate the Conservative leadership race (Canada) who is all about loving Donald and is making it part of her platform. And she is the previous Gov's Women's Minister ffs.
So beyond speaking out against what she is saying (a lot of people are which is good) so the party members give her a pass we have to sit back and basically wait to see how many of my citizens are all about loving Donald and want a Donald in power here too. And that just really sucks.
posted by Jalliah at 7:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
anyone else having trouble figuring out how to deal with trump supporting coworkers without getting fired????
I haven't had a non-work-related conversation since Tuesday and I don't plan to have any for the next four years, me.
posted by winna at 7:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
I haven't had a non-work-related conversation since Tuesday and I don't plan to have any for the next four years, me.
posted by winna at 7:04 AM on November 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
adamvasco: an America forgotten in the bicoastal media bubble
Joe in Australia linked to a strong counter-argument that the bubble works the other way round.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
Joe in Australia linked to a strong counter-argument that the bubble works the other way round.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
And he's not even putting them in the right places. Like, if you were an incompetent picking a position for fellow incompetent Ben Carson, wouldn't you put him up for Surgeon General, not Education Secretary?
Someone has to be in charge of teaching creationism.
Trump is just making this up, right? "The @nytimes sent a letter to their subscribers apologizing for their BAD coverage of me. I wonder if it will change - doubt it?"
I assume he was referring to this piece by the Public Editor, along with other articles examining at how their journalism missed the reality of the election by such a large degree.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Someone has to be in charge of teaching creationism.
Trump is just making this up, right? "The @nytimes sent a letter to their subscribers apologizing for their BAD coverage of me. I wonder if it will change - doubt it?"
I assume he was referring to this piece by the Public Editor, along with other articles examining at how their journalism missed the reality of the election by such a large degree.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
And here we go. Climate Wars are starting.
This admin and the people in it have absolutely no clue what their incompetence and ignorance is unleashing. China saying this, at this point in time is big fricken deal. Doesn't sound like much but this is the first salvo.
Here's hoping they listen for the sake of the globe but also the sake of the US itself because China has a whole lot of power levers it can use if it deems necessary.
China warns Trump against abandoning climate change deal
China has warned Donald Trump that he will be defying the wishes of the entire planet if he acts on his vow to back away from the Paris climate agreement after he becomes US president next January.
In a sign of how far the world has shifted in recognising the need to tackle global warming, Beijing — once seen as an obstructive force in UN climate talks — is now leading the push for progress by responding to fears that Mr Trump would pull the US out of the landmark accord.
“It is global society’s will that all want to co-operate to combat climate change,” a senior Beijing negotiator said in Marrakesh on Friday, at the first round of UN talks since the Paris deal was sealed last December. The Chinese negotiators added that “any movement by the new US government” would not affect their transition towards becoming a greener economy.
India also joined in the warnings, saying Mr Trump’s appointment would force countries to reassess an accord hailed as an end to the fossil fuel era.
“Everyone will rethink how this whole process is going to unfold,” India’s chief negotiator, Ravi Prasad, told the Financial Times.
posted by Jalliah at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
The assumption had always been that cities and the coasts are anti-American and that the interior white rural areas are the truest most prefect expression of American values. The rush to figure out how we can better pander to that segment of the population rests on that basic assumption, that those folks didn't mean to be fascists, they're always better Americans than anyone else so we need to figure out the hidden wisdom in their actions.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2016 [41 favorites]
Joe in Australia linked to a strong counter-argument that the bubble works the other way round.
They're both bubbles. The practical question isn't who lives in a bubble, it's who has the numbers to take power.
posted by Talez at 7:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
They're both bubbles. The practical question isn't who lives in a bubble, it's who has the numbers to take power.
posted by Talez at 7:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Here's hoping they listen for the sake of the globe but also the sake of the US itself because China has a whole lot of power levers it can use if it deems necessary.
"China pushing globalist agenda to force United States into line".
That's sure to rustle some jimmies.
posted by Talez at 7:26 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
"China pushing globalist agenda to force United States into line".
That's sure to rustle some jimmies.
posted by Talez at 7:26 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reaching back a few days, but I think this bears mentioning:
I have contact with people that know what's currently being talked about in the 'halls' in Marrakech right now. Trump getting elected is having a seismic shift in how the US is viewed. It's no longer an ally and no longer can be depended on for anything. It's devastating because of the sheer power of it's current economic might as well as the sense that it held some moral social power of being on the good side. Unless Trump does a 180 in terms of the most important problem in the world right now the US is now a rogue state and is going to be looked at as one.
This is arguably the most positive thing that can come out of a Trump presidency. Republicans' insistence on opposing anything Democrats do at any level of government no matter what means that for years America has not been a trustworthy ally on the international stage. The idea that "politics ends at the water's edge" is dead, and nearly any commitment the country has made was certain to turn to dust as soon as the government changed hands (or before that, if the GOP could find leverage strong enough). We can't be trusted to honor our commitments anymore, and the sooner the rest of the world starts accounting for that, the better.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:26 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have contact with people that know what's currently being talked about in the 'halls' in Marrakech right now. Trump getting elected is having a seismic shift in how the US is viewed. It's no longer an ally and no longer can be depended on for anything. It's devastating because of the sheer power of it's current economic might as well as the sense that it held some moral social power of being on the good side. Unless Trump does a 180 in terms of the most important problem in the world right now the US is now a rogue state and is going to be looked at as one.
This is arguably the most positive thing that can come out of a Trump presidency. Republicans' insistence on opposing anything Democrats do at any level of government no matter what means that for years America has not been a trustworthy ally on the international stage. The idea that "politics ends at the water's edge" is dead, and nearly any commitment the country has made was certain to turn to dust as soon as the government changed hands (or before that, if the GOP could find leverage strong enough). We can't be trusted to honor our commitments anymore, and the sooner the rest of the world starts accounting for that, the better.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:26 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Talking with a friend we decided that it's as if we got together and after three or four beers decided "Hey just for shits and giggles lets pick the worst and dumbest people for a hypothetical cabinet.' And then our list, written on napkin soaked with spots of stale beer, became real life.
It wasn't a beer-soaked napkin. This is actually the origin story of the reality-making typewriter.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:33 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
It wasn't a beer-soaked napkin. This is actually the origin story of the reality-making typewriter.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:33 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The practical question isn't who lives in a bubble, it's who has the numbers to take power.
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views? Maybe this is despair talking, but that seems intractable so long as Fox and Breitbart are around.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:34 AM on November 13, 2016
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views? Maybe this is despair talking, but that seems intractable so long as Fox and Breitbart are around.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:34 AM on November 13, 2016
I was reading about it today and there appears to be supporters that are absolutely, 100%, he must keep the promise to build the Wall and those that believe that it's a just a metaphor about immediately coming down hard on immigration.
How can there be a debate? He promised that "On Day One, we will begin working on an impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful southern border wall."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Working-class whites are approximately one-third of the electorate.The Democrats will not be able to win national elections without peeling off more of their votes.
This is false. Dems are going to win the popular by probably 2 million votes. 50,000 votes switched in PA, WI, and MI and they win the electoral college. The electorate get 2% less white each year. Not only can an expanded coalition not focusing on WWC win in the future, minus some ratfucking this year it would've won in 2016.
posted by chris24 at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is false. Dems are going to win the popular by probably 2 million votes. 50,000 votes switched in PA, WI, and MI and they win the electoral college. The electorate get 2% less white each year. Not only can an expanded coalition not focusing on WWC win in the future, minus some ratfucking this year it would've won in 2016.
posted by chris24 at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
They are lining up to kiss the ring:
@WPJenna Kellyanne Conway tells pooler @djusatoday that Jeb! and Trump had "a very productive call" that was "incredibly gracious."
Conway also confirmed phone calls with John Kasich and Carly Fiorina. Trump tweeted that he had a "very nice" call with Mitt Romney.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
@WPJenna Kellyanne Conway tells pooler @djusatoday that Jeb! and Trump had "a very productive call" that was "incredibly gracious."
Conway also confirmed phone calls with John Kasich and Carly Fiorina. Trump tweeted that he had a "very nice" call with Mitt Romney.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
soren_lorensen
And as someone who grew up in an interior, though not particularly white, rural area, this always boggles my mind. Latent Jeffersonianism in the urbanites? A John Mellencamp-style simultaneous revulsion of, yet cleaving to, the "small town?"
In my experience small towns mostly suck for most of the people who live there. Ditto ranching/farming/resource extraction, which are pretty much the only economies left in much of the interior, since manufacturing mostly stayed tied to the waterways it always relied on (ruling out most of the interior between the Mississippi and the Sierras) or was off-shored/automated away. The only people who seem to romanticize them are white suburbanites who wish they could recreate a fifties that never really existed, or "return to the land" (though they have no idea how to actually function there).
And yet nobody seems willing to step on these Cliven Bundys and Sam Brownbacks and say "that poo poo is unAmerican, you're actually just trying to steal and destroy the commons, why do YOU hate the country so much?"
posted by aspersioncast at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
And as someone who grew up in an interior, though not particularly white, rural area, this always boggles my mind. Latent Jeffersonianism in the urbanites? A John Mellencamp-style simultaneous revulsion of, yet cleaving to, the "small town?"
In my experience small towns mostly suck for most of the people who live there. Ditto ranching/farming/resource extraction, which are pretty much the only economies left in much of the interior, since manufacturing mostly stayed tied to the waterways it always relied on (ruling out most of the interior between the Mississippi and the Sierras) or was off-shored/automated away. The only people who seem to romanticize them are white suburbanites who wish they could recreate a fifties that never really existed, or "return to the land" (though they have no idea how to actually function there).
And yet nobody seems willing to step on these Cliven Bundys and Sam Brownbacks and say "that poo poo is unAmerican, you're actually just trying to steal and destroy the commons, why do YOU hate the country so much?"
posted by aspersioncast at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
How can there be a debate? He promised that
If the past year has taught us anything, it's that this line of thinking has zero to do with American politics anymore. I'm 100% with you on its validity and value, but it appears that half the country doesn't give a shit about it, the Republican Party will run with ignoring it so long as it keeps them in power, and the media is happy to play along.
posted by Rykey at 7:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the past year has taught us anything, it's that this line of thinking has zero to do with American politics anymore. I'm 100% with you on its validity and value, but it appears that half the country doesn't give a shit about it, the Republican Party will run with ignoring it so long as it keeps them in power, and the media is happy to play along.
posted by Rykey at 7:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't see a way out of this. It was rural/suburban white economic and cultural malaise that put Trump into office, so there's no impetus to fix the thing that's the source of his power... when things get worse for white people, it'll only mean that the policies weren't implemented rigorously enough - that the wealthy shouldn't paying ANY tax, and there shouldn't be ANY non-white immigration, or ANY government freeloading for the poor. Then a war to make them all feel better about themselves.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, Chris Christie-- as loyal as he has been-- is definitely out.
NYPost Insiders say Donald Trump is ‘disgusted’ by Chris Christie
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
NYPost Insiders say Donald Trump is ‘disgusted’ by Chris Christie
President-elect Donald Trump is so disgusted with Chris Christie’s handling of the Bridgegate scandal that he’s kicking the New Jersey Gov. out of his inner circle, The Post has learned.So a word to the wise, no matter how shiny you polish his boots with your tongue, he will kick you out the minute his mood changes.
“Trump thought it was shameful that Christie didn’t take the fall for [convicted aide] Bridget Kelly,” said a source close to the transition team. “Trump is really angry that Christie is sending a soccer mom to jail. He believes 100 percent that Christie was behind it all.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
We can't be trusted to honor our commitments anymore, and the sooner the rest of the world starts accounting for that, the better.
Earlier this week when I was trying desperately to think of anything, anything good that might come of this shitshow, it was the prospect of the US losing its outsized, unmerited stature, influence, and power in the world. Of course, the road to that place will probably involve a metric ton of suffering and harm and upheaval to people and the planet, so it's not a thing to stand up and cheer about.
But by and large, to become closer to "just another country" than a global superpower -- more like France or the UK than Russia or China -- would in the long run probably be a better state of affairs. Breaking up into smaller nation-states would probably be part of that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Earlier this week when I was trying desperately to think of anything, anything good that might come of this shitshow, it was the prospect of the US losing its outsized, unmerited stature, influence, and power in the world. Of course, the road to that place will probably involve a metric ton of suffering and harm and upheaval to people and the planet, so it's not a thing to stand up and cheer about.
But by and large, to become closer to "just another country" than a global superpower -- more like France or the UK than Russia or China -- would in the long run probably be a better state of affairs. Breaking up into smaller nation-states would probably be part of that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views?
Make sure they have jobs. When you and yours are fed and have a decent chance of staying fed, one can be more amendable to different views or at least not care so much what others are doing.
If everyone is fighting over crumbs, then yeah, people put themselves (be it family, relgion, church, etc) first and fuck everyone else. Because crumbs.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Make sure they have jobs. When you and yours are fed and have a decent chance of staying fed, one can be more amendable to different views or at least not care so much what others are doing.
If everyone is fighting over crumbs, then yeah, people put themselves (be it family, relgion, church, etc) first and fuck everyone else. Because crumbs.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
I mean, yes-- the so-called white working class (I honestly really hate that term-- what's a better way to describe them?)
Personally, I tend to like "blue-collar", because to me "working class" implies a low/below-average/below-median income, even though we know that Trump supporters tended to be above the average or median income. Plus if we're talking about white Midwesterners, a lot of these people in various occupations (carpenter, electrician, construction, firefighters, machinists, factory line workers, truck/delivery drivers, etc etc) that don't require a college degree are making 40 - 80 K a year (especially if they're union) and living in places where's that's a solid living wage.
I understand they they feel a sense of economic instability, and they're absolutely right in that their dollars don't go as far as they used to. But that's (mostly) not the fault of Democratic economic polices - not nearly as much as it's the fault of the corporations being given free rein to maximize profit at the expense of any and all other considerations via Republican economic policies. And it's definitely not the fault of women or POC or immigrants.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:47 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Personally, I tend to like "blue-collar", because to me "working class" implies a low/below-average/below-median income, even though we know that Trump supporters tended to be above the average or median income. Plus if we're talking about white Midwesterners, a lot of these people in various occupations (carpenter, electrician, construction, firefighters, machinists, factory line workers, truck/delivery drivers, etc etc) that don't require a college degree are making 40 - 80 K a year (especially if they're union) and living in places where's that's a solid living wage.
I understand they they feel a sense of economic instability, and they're absolutely right in that their dollars don't go as far as they used to. But that's (mostly) not the fault of Democratic economic polices - not nearly as much as it's the fault of the corporations being given free rein to maximize profit at the expense of any and all other considerations via Republican economic policies. And it's definitely not the fault of women or POC or immigrants.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:47 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
So a word to the wise, no matter how shiny you polish his boots with your tongue, he will kick you out the minute his mood changes.
Well, he's right about Christie, at least, this time.
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, he's right about Christie, at least, this time.
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
CNN Ryan: 'We are not planning on erecting a deportation force'
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
House Speaker Paul Ryan said Sunday despite Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric, lawmakers are not prepared to form a deportation force to round-up and deport undocumented immigrants.Oh boy, I can't wait to see what his agenda IS going to be because so far the campaign promises are disappearing quickly.
"We are not planning on erecting a deportation force. Donald Trump's not planning on that," Ryan told CNN's Jake Tapper on "State of the Union."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh boy, I can't wait to see what his agenda IS going to be because so far the campaign promises are disappearing quickly.
God knows who "middle America" are going to elect if they feel swindled by Trump.
posted by Talez at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016
God knows who "middle America" are going to elect if they feel swindled by Trump.
posted by Talez at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016
So, just for the record, I gave Trump a chance.
He's already lost it.
See: tweets
See: transition team
See: top picks for cabinet.
Am I supposed to be giving him more chances? I just wonder, the people I've read (not here) or watched saying, "Give him a chance" how is "chance" defined?
As President-Elect, he's already gone after the First Amendment. And that's without addressing the travesty that is his short list for cabinet slots.
posted by angrycat at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016 [28 favorites]
He's already lost it.
See: tweets
See: transition team
See: top picks for cabinet.
Am I supposed to be giving him more chances? I just wonder, the people I've read (not here) or watched saying, "Give him a chance" how is "chance" defined?
As President-Elect, he's already gone after the First Amendment. And that's without addressing the travesty that is his short list for cabinet slots.
posted by angrycat at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016 [28 favorites]
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views? Maybe this is despair talking, but that seems intractable so long as Fox and Breitbart are around.
Trump won because a bunch of people who had voted for Obama weren't interested in voting for Clinton and either switched parties or stayed home. So while I am all in favor of everyone (rural and non-rural) broadening their views, that wasn't really the central problem in this election.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016
Trump won because a bunch of people who had voted for Obama weren't interested in voting for Clinton and either switched parties or stayed home. So while I am all in favor of everyone (rural and non-rural) broadening their views, that wasn't really the central problem in this election.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2016
Ryan: 'We are not planning on erecting a deportation force'
And if fucking Paul Ryan says it, by God, we can all rest easy knowing he'll fight the good fight.
posted by Rykey at 7:52 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
And if fucking Paul Ryan says it, by God, we can all rest easy knowing he'll fight the good fight.
posted by Rykey at 7:52 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
Conway also confirmed phone calls with John Kasich and Carly Fiorina. Trump tweeted that he had a "very nice" call with Mitt Romney.
I'm not sure it's going to be as easy as that for Donald because even with the 'nice' call things like this are happening. Romney had a 'nice' call but also went on tv and said things like this.
Mitt Romney says Donald Trump will change America with 'trickle-down racism
The 2012 Republican nominee, who has openly opposed Trump's candidacy, went further than he has before in outlining to CNN's Wolf Blitzer how the country's character would suffer in a Trump White House. Trump's rhetoric has caused even some other Republicans to label him a racist, and Romney said he would not be able to paper over his incendiary remarks.
"I don't want to see trickle-down racism," Romney said in an interview here in a suite overlooking the Wasatch Mountains, where he is hosting his yearly ideas conference. "I don't want to see a president of the United States saying things which change the character of the generations of Americans that are following. Presidents have an impact on the nature of our nation, and trickle-down racism, trickle-down bigotry, trickle-down misogyny, all these things are extraordinarily dangerous to the heart and character of America."
posted by Jalliah at 7:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure it's going to be as easy as that for Donald because even with the 'nice' call things like this are happening. Romney had a 'nice' call but also went on tv and said things like this.
Mitt Romney says Donald Trump will change America with 'trickle-down racism
The 2012 Republican nominee, who has openly opposed Trump's candidacy, went further than he has before in outlining to CNN's Wolf Blitzer how the country's character would suffer in a Trump White House. Trump's rhetoric has caused even some other Republicans to label him a racist, and Romney said he would not be able to paper over his incendiary remarks.
"I don't want to see trickle-down racism," Romney said in an interview here in a suite overlooking the Wasatch Mountains, where he is hosting his yearly ideas conference. "I don't want to see a president of the United States saying things which change the character of the generations of Americans that are following. Presidents have an impact on the nature of our nation, and trickle-down racism, trickle-down bigotry, trickle-down misogyny, all these things are extraordinarily dangerous to the heart and character of America."
posted by Jalliah at 7:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
As retweeted by Joy Reid. Can't say I disagree.
@smoothkobra
Bernie moved to work with Trump, a white nationalist, and celebrate his policies a hell of alot faster than he moved to endorse Clinton
posted by chris24 at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
@smoothkobra
Bernie moved to work with Trump, a white nationalist, and celebrate his policies a hell of alot faster than he moved to endorse Clinton
posted by chris24 at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
From the Guardian article: “I think Trump is nuts, but I’d love to have him as a president to see what happens.”
Said the 68-year-old Edward Tucker from Ohio, where the life expectancy for a white male is 75. This is a voter who has little skin in the long term. If he truly wants to see what happens, should Trump and the GOP go through with their plans to raze the ACA, he can expect his actuarial odds to diminish.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Said the 68-year-old Edward Tucker from Ohio, where the life expectancy for a white male is 75. This is a voter who has little skin in the long term. If he truly wants to see what happens, should Trump and the GOP go through with their plans to raze the ACA, he can expect his actuarial odds to diminish.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mitt Romney says Donald Trump will change America with 'trickle-down racism
Love it, but it's from June.
posted by Mchelly at 7:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Love it, but it's from June.
posted by Mchelly at 7:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
How can there be a debate? He promised that "On Day One, we will begin working on an impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful southern border wall."
Oh, Metafilter, there you go again with the "quoting" of the "actual" "words".
Donald Trump will do what he wants -- influenced by whatever he thinks the people who adore him will cause them to keep adoring him (whether the people in his Cabinet and in Congress who manage to suck up enough, or the rabid fan base on Twitter). He is a simple man. He wants to be comfortable and not to be uncomfortable; he wants pretty women and to be seen with pretty women; he wants money enough to do what he wants, and for it to be known that he has such vast sums; he wants power, and to be accepted as the most powerful.
That is his driving force. That is how he will govern, and although many of his campaign promises will be fulfilled (insofar as they're things that could be implemented given the constraints of reality), they won't be fulfilled because of some words he said once at a rally, but because Trump fears he will lose the feeling that everyone in his circle will hold him in awe, kiss his ring.
This is the hardest, boldest thing Trump has ever done in his life. He cannot choose, as he has always done before, to surround himself only with sycophants, the drama-hungry tabloid media and the celebrity-watchers of America.
No, he cannot fire the people; though when he discovers this, he can possibly fire upon them, instead. And would he then lose a single vote? That may be the only true thing he has said.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Oh, Metafilter, there you go again with the "quoting" of the "actual" "words".
Donald Trump will do what he wants -- influenced by whatever he thinks the people who adore him will cause them to keep adoring him (whether the people in his Cabinet and in Congress who manage to suck up enough, or the rabid fan base on Twitter). He is a simple man. He wants to be comfortable and not to be uncomfortable; he wants pretty women and to be seen with pretty women; he wants money enough to do what he wants, and for it to be known that he has such vast sums; he wants power, and to be accepted as the most powerful.
That is his driving force. That is how he will govern, and although many of his campaign promises will be fulfilled (insofar as they're things that could be implemented given the constraints of reality), they won't be fulfilled because of some words he said once at a rally, but because Trump fears he will lose the feeling that everyone in his circle will hold him in awe, kiss his ring.
This is the hardest, boldest thing Trump has ever done in his life. He cannot choose, as he has always done before, to surround himself only with sycophants, the drama-hungry tabloid media and the celebrity-watchers of America.
No, he cannot fire the people; though when he discovers this, he can possibly fire upon them, instead. And would he then lose a single vote? That may be the only true thing he has said.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Set aside economics for a moment and think about climate change. The Democrats have been arguing for decades it needs to be addressed more forcefully as that's what almost every scientist looking at the problem says, yet, repeatedly people are elected who do not even believe climate change is real. Voters ignore the science, ignore the politicians running on addressing the problem, and ignore everyone else who talks about the real danger climate change poses for everyone in order to listen to those who tell people what they want to hear.
There is a solution to this: tell the voters that climate change means that EVERYONE from the coasts will be forced inland. Every state will turn purple due to all the refugees, cities like Cleveland will expand and there will be no rural areas (hydroponics is where the food will come from). Everyone will have no choice but to live cheek to jowl with people who do not think the way they do. Will there be jobs for people? Maybe, maybe not. Is this actually what will happen? Who knows? Who cares? It's a good story and that's all the voters care about.
posted by dannyboybell at 7:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Love it, but it's from June.
Aw crap. Sorry. Need to make sure I check the dates.
posted by Jalliah at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2016
Aw crap. Sorry. Need to make sure I check the dates.
posted by Jalliah at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh boy, I can't wait to see what his agenda IS going to be because so far the campaign promises are disappearing quickly.
So for people that voted for him but claim not to be sexist or racist, what will they say when the promises are gone?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
what will they say when the promises are gone?
"He totally would've gotten that done, if the damn [insert political enemy here]s hadn't fucked it all up."
posted by Rykey at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
"He totally would've gotten that done, if the damn [insert political enemy here]s hadn't fucked it all up."
posted by Rykey at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Bernie moved to work with Trump, a white nationalist, and celebrate his policies a hell of alot faster than he moved to endorse Clinton
Well what he actually said was:
posted by Talez at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Well what he actually said was:
“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”I doubt they'll agree much on what constitutes policies that improve the lives of working families. Bernie would probably work with Satan himself if Satan promised a living wage for all working Americans.
posted by Talez at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
>Mitt Romney says Donald Trump will change America with 'trickle-down racism
The article also includes Trump's tweeted response:
>"Mitt Romney had his chance to beat a failed president but he choked like a dog."
I mean... that reads like it was written by some kind of evil, alternate-timeline Hunter Thompson.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The article also includes Trump's tweeted response:
>"Mitt Romney had his chance to beat a failed president but he choked like a dog."
I mean... that reads like it was written by some kind of evil, alternate-timeline Hunter Thompson.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bernie moved to work with Trump, a white nationalist, and celebrate his policies a hell of alot faster than he moved to endorse Clinton
To that I say: Kooth Smobra
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
To that I say: Kooth Smobra
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well what he actually said was... To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic
To the degree that he pursues? Like he hasn't already?
Bernie would probably work with Satan himself if Satan promised a living wage for all working Americans.
I'm sure PoC will be thrilled that he'll sell them out for WWC. I guess there's a reason he did so poorly with them in the primaries.
posted by chris24 at 8:09 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
To the degree that he pursues? Like he hasn't already?
Bernie would probably work with Satan himself if Satan promised a living wage for all working Americans.
I'm sure PoC will be thrilled that he'll sell them out for WWC. I guess there's a reason he did so poorly with them in the primaries.
posted by chris24 at 8:09 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
The context of Johnson's remarks on Sanders's supposed capitulation to Trump is here, regarding Our Revolution's statement on the likely defeat of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
I'm sure PoC will be thrilled that he'll sell them out for WWC.
How is a living wage for all Americans a sellout to whites? How likely is Trump, with his cabinet of racist, capitalist ghouls, to push for anything even close to that?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm sure PoC will be thrilled that he'll sell them out for WWC.
How is a living wage for all Americans a sellout to whites? How likely is Trump, with his cabinet of racist, capitalist ghouls, to push for anything even close to that?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
How President Trump Could Reshape the Supreme Court—and the Country
Just how could President Trump reshape the highest court—and the country? If Trump sticks to the list of proposed justices he released during the campaign, the court is likely to look and act similarly to that of any other Republican president. But that doesn’t mean Trump’s appointees won’t have the opportunity to shape the Constitution now and for decades to come. In this regard, Trump might want to be careful what he wishes for: It’s possible that a conservative Trump Court would enforce constitutional checks on powers asserted by President Trump himself.posted by kirkaracha at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
To people thinking about ohh, this is al about the white working class and blah blah blah... how do you know you are not still in a bubble? Is this media coverage any more accurate than when it predicted a solid Clinton win?
Because here's what I see, when I think about the interactions I've had with people, completely ignoring the media.
Half of America resents the other half and vice versa. People bought the media narrative about Clinton being corrupt, and still buy into it. The Republicans voted to toe the party line no matter how bad Trump was, justified in various fashions which change depending on the argument you use and largely seem to ignore any media that isn't conservative propaganda. Giant fucking meteor was the most popular 3rd party candidate, and some people voted for Trump because he was closest in effect to a giant fucking meteor. Many people blamed the ACA for their increased healthcare costs, especially where it presented a burden in states that didn't take the expanded medicare coverage.
I don't know what the heck to make of all that. But all this media navelgazing about bluecollar whites still doesn't seem to line up with reality as I'm experiencing it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Because here's what I see, when I think about the interactions I've had with people, completely ignoring the media.
Half of America resents the other half and vice versa. People bought the media narrative about Clinton being corrupt, and still buy into it. The Republicans voted to toe the party line no matter how bad Trump was, justified in various fashions which change depending on the argument you use and largely seem to ignore any media that isn't conservative propaganda. Giant fucking meteor was the most popular 3rd party candidate, and some people voted for Trump because he was closest in effect to a giant fucking meteor. Many people blamed the ACA for their increased healthcare costs, especially where it presented a burden in states that didn't take the expanded medicare coverage.
I don't know what the heck to make of all that. But all this media navelgazing about bluecollar whites still doesn't seem to line up with reality as I'm experiencing it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
As I swim through the brain-strangling depression fog provoked by the election of Cheeto-Jesus - I (like ian1977) keep holding out for the trickle of news stories about Trump's ties to Russia and how, low and behold!
That they aren't forthcoming is a touch dismaying. Either there is no there, there (which I'm willing (unbelievably) to believe) or -and this is more the point because, there was nothing to the Clinton email fiasco, - there's no political will to turn it into something. (Do foreign governments contact potential President's elect? I don't know, I can see that it would be illegal/frowned upon but also that they do, and it is normal.)
Or the whispers of the knives coming out and Trump being lined up for a proper rogering and to-the-wolves-ing by the experienced ratfuckers of DC
Most, to be honest, I wish that the 'media' would stop pretending he isn't 'really' the racist nightmare he has been telling us he is.
Remember,
"When someone shows you who they are believe them the first time."
posted by From Bklyn at 8:16 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
That they aren't forthcoming is a touch dismaying. Either there is no there, there (which I'm willing (unbelievably) to believe) or -and this is more the point because, there was nothing to the Clinton email fiasco, - there's no political will to turn it into something. (Do foreign governments contact potential President's elect? I don't know, I can see that it would be illegal/frowned upon but also that they do, and it is normal.)
Or the whispers of the knives coming out and Trump being lined up for a proper rogering and to-the-wolves-ing by the experienced ratfuckers of DC
Most, to be honest, I wish that the 'media' would stop pretending he isn't 'really' the racist nightmare he has been telling us he is.
Remember,
"When someone shows you who they are believe them the first time."
posted by From Bklyn at 8:16 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
How is a living wage for all Americans a sellout to whites?
A mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a $15 minimum wage.
posted by chris24 at 8:16 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
A mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a $15 minimum wage.
posted by chris24 at 8:16 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
SNL- HILLARY (Kate McKinnon) 'Hallelujah ' opening 11-12-16
With Trump-Pence and a Republican Congress, we are well and truly fucked. But I like her style.
posted by theora55 at 8:17 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
With Trump-Pence and a Republican Congress, we are well and truly fucked. But I like her style.
posted by theora55 at 8:17 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump is already scaring and discouraging students from abroad.
I never catch up here enough to have read all the comments before posting myself - but this headline made me tear up and get the sniffles (again.)
However much I grouse about it, the part of my job that has always made me proud is providing advocacy and assistance for students of all races, religions, orientations, and nationalities who are enrolled at my university, seeking an education. Universities are huge bureaucracies and students can often get caught in the grinder, and I always strive to be a steady point of contact for help and questions.
All my students are close to my heart, whether they're from Sells, Arizona, or Luanda, Angola. I've spent my career working with citizens of the world, in many ways. And I hate to think of any of them, US or international, now feeling scared and unsure of what the next 4 years will bring them.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:17 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I never catch up here enough to have read all the comments before posting myself - but this headline made me tear up and get the sniffles (again.)
However much I grouse about it, the part of my job that has always made me proud is providing advocacy and assistance for students of all races, religions, orientations, and nationalities who are enrolled at my university, seeking an education. Universities are huge bureaucracies and students can often get caught in the grinder, and I always strive to be a steady point of contact for help and questions.
All my students are close to my heart, whether they're from Sells, Arizona, or Luanda, Angola. I've spent my career working with citizens of the world, in many ways. And I hate to think of any of them, US or international, now feeling scared and unsure of what the next 4 years will bring them.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:17 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
The practical question isn't who lives in a bubble, it's who has the numbers to take power.
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views?
Cheaper, more widespread broadband, like what was done with rural electrification and access to phone networks.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 AM on November 13, 2016
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views?
Cheaper, more widespread broadband, like what was done with rural electrification and access to phone networks.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh boy, I can't wait to see what his agenda IS going to be because so far the campaign promises are disappearing quickly.
Nothing is real until after the 19th of December, and perhaps even the 20th of January. I expect for him to make many placating sounds during the lame duck time while getting his lists together.
posted by Mooski at 8:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nothing is real until after the 19th of December, and perhaps even the 20th of January. I expect for him to make many placating sounds during the lame duck time while getting his lists together.
posted by Mooski at 8:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
A mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a $15 minimum wage.
A $15 minimum wage isn't on Trump's agenda. Sanders hasn't actually declared loyalty to Trump.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
A $15 minimum wage isn't on Trump's agenda. Sanders hasn't actually declared loyalty to Trump.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
He cannot choose, as he has always done before, to surround himself only with sycophants, the drama-hungry tabloid media and the celebrity-watchers of America.
I'm pretty sure this is exactly what he can and will choose to do. Chances are the National Enquirer will be the only one left in his press pool by Q3 2017. And everyone in his cabinet serves at his pleasure, and if they don't please him, they'll be gone. Sycophants and tabloids will direct and chronicle, respectively, our destruction.
posted by dis_integration at 8:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure this is exactly what he can and will choose to do. Chances are the National Enquirer will be the only one left in his press pool by Q3 2017. And everyone in his cabinet serves at his pleasure, and if they don't please him, they'll be gone. Sycophants and tabloids will direct and chronicle, respectively, our destruction.
posted by dis_integration at 8:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
A $15 minimum wage isn't on Trump's agenda. Sanders hasn't actually declared loyalty to Trump.
Oh FFS. Then a mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a living wage. Better?
posted by chris24 at 8:21 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh FFS. Then a mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a living wage. Better?
posted by chris24 at 8:21 AM on November 13, 2016
ZeusHumms: Cheaper, more widespread broadband, like what was done with rural electrification and access to phone networks.
Do we have any data that this helps? Because I think the internet just as easily radicalizes people. White wealthy people didn't vote for a racist, sexist, xenophobic candidate because they lacked internet access.
posted by bluecore at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Do we have any data that this helps? Because I think the internet just as easily radicalizes people. White wealthy people didn't vote for a racist, sexist, xenophobic candidate because they lacked internet access.
posted by bluecore at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I wonder if Trump would be upset if Twitter was shut down.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh FFS. Then a mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a living wage. Better?
Can we stop shitting on the guy until Jan 21st? All he's said is he's going to work with Trump when their goals align and oppose him vigorously when they don't.
posted by Talez at 8:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
Can we stop shitting on the guy until Jan 21st? All he's said is he's going to work with Trump when their goals align and oppose him vigorously when they don't.
posted by Talez at 8:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oh FFS. Then a mass deportation force and ban on Muslims and hate attacks on PoC were a small price to pay for a living wage. Better?
No. Sanders isn't on Trump's side and the Sanders supporters I know have been unified in horror at the wave of hate that has flowed over the country since the election. TPP will die, which is good, but Trump will be president, which is catastrophic.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
No. Sanders isn't on Trump's side and the Sanders supporters I know have been unified in horror at the wave of hate that has flowed over the country since the election. TPP will die, which is good, but Trump will be president, which is catastrophic.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I found this a to be very good and comprehensive analysis of the Trump win. It's up there with the best ones I've read so far. The pie chart is quite illuminating. (maybe NSFW, some bad language in it)
An analysis of Donald Trump’s election win and the prospects for his presidency
posted by Jalliah at 8:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
My question is: I'd like to suggest a Republican they can vote for instead. Which one? There's Egg, of course, and I'd probably mention him. My sense of humor really wants me to include Jeb(!) but that wouldn't be taken seriously at all. Maybe Rubio? McCain? Romney? Can't be Cruz.
I wouldn't mention Egg, actually. Egg was the last hope because he had a real chance of winning Utah, not because he was the best candidate.
I would mention that if they can get below 270 - very possible - that the election goes to a Republican house. Emphasize Republican house. Then suggest Jeb or Rubio, both candidates that still had a lot of support in the party.
And fuck Cruz. I'm pretty sure that he actually is partially responsible for late breaking voters going for Trump, when he started, in the last week of the election, actually physically going along on Trump campaigning.
posted by corb at 8:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't mention Egg, actually. Egg was the last hope because he had a real chance of winning Utah, not because he was the best candidate.
I would mention that if they can get below 270 - very possible - that the election goes to a Republican house. Emphasize Republican house. Then suggest Jeb or Rubio, both candidates that still had a lot of support in the party.
And fuck Cruz. I'm pretty sure that he actually is partially responsible for late breaking voters going for Trump, when he started, in the last week of the election, actually physically going along on Trump campaigning.
posted by corb at 8:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
And everyone in his cabinet serves at his pleasure, and if they don't please him, they'll be gone.
Each time one of his cavalcade of shitheads replacements must be advised and consented by the Senate. They're not going to put up with his shit if he sends one through every couple of weeks. Especially if there's a massive shitfight from the left and burning of political capital each time.
Hell, if the tips are to be believed, GS alum for Treasury Secretary is going to be the proverbial lightbulb for leftist moths to be attracted to, instantly turn into a massive shitshow and shout loudly to middle America "YOU GOT TAKEN YOU RUBES! IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL!".
posted by Talez at 8:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Each time one of his cavalcade of shitheads replacements must be advised and consented by the Senate. They're not going to put up with his shit if he sends one through every couple of weeks. Especially if there's a massive shitfight from the left and burning of political capital each time.
Hell, if the tips are to be believed, GS alum for Treasury Secretary is going to be the proverbial lightbulb for leftist moths to be attracted to, instantly turn into a massive shitshow and shout loudly to middle America "YOU GOT TAKEN YOU RUBES! IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL!".
posted by Talez at 8:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
All he's said is he's going to work with Trump when their goals align
And again, he's willing to work with a white nationalist who promises deportation, a Muslim ban, attacks on the first amendment, etc. etc. How about I'll be willing to work with you once you disavow these horrible things you've said and done regarding PoC?
posted by chris24 at 8:29 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
And again, he's willing to work with a white nationalist who promises deportation, a Muslim ban, attacks on the first amendment, etc. etc. How about I'll be willing to work with you once you disavow these horrible things you've said and done regarding PoC?
posted by chris24 at 8:29 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
shame on that bernie sanders for things he didn't say or do
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
Because I think the internet just as easily radicalizes people.
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that there is zero correlation between lack of internet access and Trumpism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that there is zero correlation between lack of internet access and Trumpism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Am I wrong about this? Cheeto Jesus tweeted stupid shit about the protestors shortly prior to his meeting with Obama, there was a brief period of silence, and the stupid tweets started again?
There's this interesting thing going on where he seems to be able to control himself when the right pressure points are applied, and maybe his children know where those pressure points are, and maybe to some extent Obama has him figured out.
It makes my stomach clench that Obama would need to put on an act so that he can manipulate Trump. I mean, you know that O thought this shit out. He may have put on said act so that Trump will call upon him for counsel in the future, which would be a blessing for the country. But if I allowed myself to imagine how Obama might have had to demean himself to play on those pressure points--I'd break something. To know that Obama might have to put up with Trump dismantling every signature achievement, hurting millions in the process, and still not call Trump a POS in the event Trump might call upon him for advice.
He did cancel the photo shoot though. Thank God.
posted by angrycat at 8:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
There's this interesting thing going on where he seems to be able to control himself when the right pressure points are applied, and maybe his children know where those pressure points are, and maybe to some extent Obama has him figured out.
It makes my stomach clench that Obama would need to put on an act so that he can manipulate Trump. I mean, you know that O thought this shit out. He may have put on said act so that Trump will call upon him for counsel in the future, which would be a blessing for the country. But if I allowed myself to imagine how Obama might have had to demean himself to play on those pressure points--I'd break something. To know that Obama might have to put up with Trump dismantling every signature achievement, hurting millions in the process, and still not call Trump a POS in the event Trump might call upon him for advice.
He did cancel the photo shoot though. Thank God.
posted by angrycat at 8:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
shame on that bernie sanders for things he didn't say or do
He has explicitly said he's willing to work with a white nationalist. With no caveats as long as it's for working class. How about I'll work with you on this once you disavow your heinous statements and actions toward people of color?
posted by chris24 at 8:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
He has explicitly said he's willing to work with a white nationalist. With no caveats as long as it's for working class. How about I'll work with you on this once you disavow your heinous statements and actions toward people of color?
posted by chris24 at 8:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
“Trump thought it was shameful that Christie didn’t take the fall for [convicted aide] Bridget Kelly,” said a source close to the transition team. “Trump is really angry that Christie is sending a soccer mom to jail. He believes 100 percent that Christie was behind it all.”
What Trump is actually saying: "Christie got caught, so he's out. He needs to pick better patsies next time."
(Seriously, does anyone think Trump wouldn't send a "soccer mom" to jail to save himself a $5 fine?)
posted by tonycpsu at 8:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
What Trump is actually saying: "Christie got caught, so he's out. He needs to pick better patsies next time."
(Seriously, does anyone think Trump wouldn't send a "soccer mom" to jail to save himself a $5 fine?)
posted by tonycpsu at 8:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
I see. So we're supposed to give Trump some wins to help the people who thought that his racism and misogyny were, if not okay, not bad enough, justify their support of him?
Just to get this straight: if a bill endorsed by Trump to raise the national minimum wage to $15 an hour comes before the house and Senate, Democrats and Independents should vote against it unless it also comes with a rider condemning Trump's racist, misogynistic remarks.*
Is that the plan of action here?
* Spoiler: It won't.
posted by kewb at 8:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just to get this straight: if a bill endorsed by Trump to raise the national minimum wage to $15 an hour comes before the house and Senate, Democrats and Independents should vote against it unless it also comes with a rider condemning Trump's racist, misogynistic remarks.*
Is that the plan of action here?
* Spoiler: It won't.
posted by kewb at 8:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Cheaper, more widespread broadband
So that folks can now read the Drudge Report as well as watch Fox News? I don't think that's gonna help.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:33 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
So that folks can now read the Drudge Report as well as watch Fox News? I don't think that's gonna help.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:33 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
He has explicitly said he's willing to work with a white nationalist. With no caveats as long as it's for working class. How about I'll work with you on this once you disavow your heinous statements and actions toward people of color?
But that's politics. There are plenty of people in the Senate right now that are racists, bigots, sexists, misogynists and yet they have to be worked with. They're there. Adults don't sulk in the corner because their side lost. They push as hard as they can to get what they think are good things through and oppose things bad things that will hurt people even if it means giving a W to truly deplorable people.
posted by Talez at 8:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
But that's politics. There are plenty of people in the Senate right now that are racists, bigots, sexists, misogynists and yet they have to be worked with. They're there. Adults don't sulk in the corner because their side lost. They push as hard as they can to get what they think are good things through and oppose things bad things that will hurt people even if it means giving a W to truly deplorable people.
posted by Talez at 8:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
I like to think the whole Christie romance and breakup was a long delicious revenge plan by Jared "Amanda Clarke" Kushner.
posted by armacy at 8:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by armacy at 8:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
TPP will die, which is good, but Trump will be president, which is catastrophic.
Oh, I guess you are right. And here's some other potential positives:
-Unions are back (except they're also used to deport undocumented immigrants)
-We'll be out of the Middle East (but Muslims here are gonna be harassed and treated terribly)!
-A "coal rush", means an economic renaissance for Appalachia (because Donald doesn't give a fig about climate change)
posted by FJT at 8:37 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh, I guess you are right. And here's some other potential positives:
-Unions are back (except they're also used to deport undocumented immigrants)
-We'll be out of the Middle East (but Muslims here are gonna be harassed and treated terribly)!
-A "coal rush", means an economic renaissance for Appalachia (because Donald doesn't give a fig about climate change)
posted by FJT at 8:37 AM on November 13, 2016
Talez, I can't favorite that hard enough. It's time to make the sausage; look away if you don't want to see how it's done.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
In which election week is quantified by my Fitbit.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also you guys go watch the Kate McKinnon cold open. A+++ would sob again.
posted by corb at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
A $15 minimum wage isn't on Trump's agenda.
He's said, "Having a low minimum wage is not a bad thing for this country," "wages too high," and "I would like to raise [the federal minimum wage] to at least $10," so take your pick.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Where is a national, centralized federal minimum wage increase on Trump's platform? Why would Ryan's House, which seeks to destroy the safety net, ever advance such a bill, which would help everyone, including people of color? It's as nonsensical to identify Sanders's politics with Trump's and the GOP's at large as it is to identify the latter with the politics of centrist Democrats urging for calm and respect for the political process.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
And this is how hate and bigotry gets normalized. We'll just work with him on this. This is how the sausage gets made.
posted by chris24 at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed; chris24, I need you to cool it pronto.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I really wish this war between Bernie supporters and other Democrats would end. We need to work together more than ever. It is possible to do that and still disagree on trade policy and what were the biggest mistakes in the election.
Good example of an Obama ad targeting 'white working class' voters. Romney was an easier opponent, but I wonder if Hillary couldn't have crafted a better message on how they would create and retain good paying jobs, perhaps exposing Trump as a con artist in the process.
@Chemzes: Here's how Obama in 2012 appealed to white workers in rust belt states. Liberals like Bouie think this is compromising to racism.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
Good example of an Obama ad targeting 'white working class' voters. Romney was an easier opponent, but I wonder if Hillary couldn't have crafted a better message on how they would create and retain good paying jobs, perhaps exposing Trump as a con artist in the process.
@Chemzes: Here's how Obama in 2012 appealed to white workers in rust belt states. Liberals like Bouie think this is compromising to racism.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
I wish I, too, could stress-starve, soren_lorenson. I suspect my chart would act on yours like noise-cancelling headphones, leaving a dull flat line of flatness.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:43 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:43 AM on November 13, 2016
If a football stadium full of voters had broken in the other direction, Hillary Clinton would be in a position where she would have to shake hands with foreign leaders doing things just as bad as Trump has promised to do. His dangerous rhetoric can't be forgiven, but he hasn't built the wall, dismantled the ACA, or banned Muslims yet, because he's not in a position to do so. Given what we're hearing about how he listens to the last person who he talked to (how he seemed more receptive to keeping parts of the ACA after talking to Obama, etc.) it seems like the path to a better outcome might be more engagement.
If he puts those awful policies into motion, we fight him tooth and nail. If he pushes the country to the edge of the cliff and we can talk him out of the final shove, we need to do that. He seems to thrive on being considered important, and despite our best efforts, he's important now. Walking away and letting him listen to only GOP voices is not going to lead to good outcomes.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
If he puts those awful policies into motion, we fight him tooth and nail. If he pushes the country to the edge of the cliff and we can talk him out of the final shove, we need to do that. He seems to thrive on being considered important, and despite our best efforts, he's important now. Walking away and letting him listen to only GOP voices is not going to lead to good outcomes.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fuck. The existential horror comes in shockwaves, and his unhinged tweets have start have started another tsunami for me.
This man is mentally ill. He almost certainly has some sort of narcissistic personality disorder. Fred Trump, his father, spent the last six years of his life with Alzheimer's. I'm not diagnosing him with anything, I'm just saying if there's a genetic component and the disease presents itself, who would stand up to him and tell him to give up the nuclear football? Melania? We're putting the fate of the human race in Melania?
posted by bluecore at 8:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
This man is mentally ill. He almost certainly has some sort of narcissistic personality disorder. Fred Trump, his father, spent the last six years of his life with Alzheimer's. I'm not diagnosing him with anything, I'm just saying if there's a genetic component and the disease presents itself, who would stand up to him and tell him to give up the nuclear football? Melania? We're putting the fate of the human race in Melania?
posted by bluecore at 8:49 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Cheaper, more widespread broadband
Trump hates net neutrality. Even if he could be convinced broadband would make an appealing infrastructure project, it would be at the cost of an open Internet.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2016
Trump hates net neutrality. Even if he could be convinced broadband would make an appealing infrastructure project, it would be at the cost of an open Internet.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2016
This does a pretty good job of defending Hillary:
NEIL BUCHANAN: THE CRUEL ‘CROOKED’ CARICATURE THAT DOOMED CLINTON
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
NEIL BUCHANAN: THE CRUEL ‘CROOKED’ CARICATURE THAT DOOMED CLINTON
More importantly, as I will discuss at length below, the supposedly liberal press relentlessly repeated the narrative that Clinton was unlikable, untrustworthy and so on. That onslaught of negativity poisoned the campaign in a way that no one could have imagined.But it could also be true that Trump did a better job of manipulating the media.
...
The true problem is that reporters do not even bother to engage in he-said-she-said journalism. They simply accept the conventional wisdom, perhaps supplemented by a quote one or two from people with alternative views (although such views are presented as being off the wall in some way).
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
What are you going to say in the next election when he runs again? What moral ground do you have to stand on when you've said that you can have both your racism and your $15? What hope do I have as a WOC have if you're telling me I can't have one without the other?
The racism at this point is a guaranteed for the next four years. It's baked into the equation. There's no way of taking it out besides Trump having a come-to-Jesus moment and publicly apologizing at his inauguration for being a giant, walking turd. We can't take the racism out. We can only try and make the lives of as many people as possible bearable for the next four years.
There are other people that are counting on their lives to be safeguarded. They may not have as big a disadvantage at POC or Muslims but they just as much right to life, liberty and happiness. I'm truly sorry that this is happening to you. I truly am. I didn't work hard enough. I let me failings rule me and not work nearly as hard as I should have against the human cheeto becoming president. And I, a WASP white boy from a WASP country will never know what it's like to be a minority in a country that's stood up and said "fuck your race". But you can't demand other people who are also struggling become martyrs of progressivism in a show of solidarity, even if it would hurt those who are racist and bigoted. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm going to be fine in a Trump presidency and I already have enough survivor's guilt to fill a stadium. But I know plenty of good people I've worked with back out in California who are looking down the barrel of their $10/hr retail jobs, the ACA being repealed and shitting their pants.
I can't endorse those people being collateral damage in some sort of obstructionist tilt against any progressivism in the name of denying racists having their cake and eat it to. I just can't. It's a fucked up version of the trolley problem and I'm sorry. I am willing to endorse forsaking the one so the five can live.
posted by Talez at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The racism at this point is a guaranteed for the next four years. It's baked into the equation. There's no way of taking it out besides Trump having a come-to-Jesus moment and publicly apologizing at his inauguration for being a giant, walking turd. We can't take the racism out. We can only try and make the lives of as many people as possible bearable for the next four years.
There are other people that are counting on their lives to be safeguarded. They may not have as big a disadvantage at POC or Muslims but they just as much right to life, liberty and happiness. I'm truly sorry that this is happening to you. I truly am. I didn't work hard enough. I let me failings rule me and not work nearly as hard as I should have against the human cheeto becoming president. And I, a WASP white boy from a WASP country will never know what it's like to be a minority in a country that's stood up and said "fuck your race". But you can't demand other people who are also struggling become martyrs of progressivism in a show of solidarity, even if it would hurt those who are racist and bigoted. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm going to be fine in a Trump presidency and I already have enough survivor's guilt to fill a stadium. But I know plenty of good people I've worked with back out in California who are looking down the barrel of their $10/hr retail jobs, the ACA being repealed and shitting their pants.
I can't endorse those people being collateral damage in some sort of obstructionist tilt against any progressivism in the name of denying racists having their cake and eat it to. I just can't. It's a fucked up version of the trolley problem and I'm sorry. I am willing to endorse forsaking the one so the five can live.
posted by Talez at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes. Awful people do good things all the time. Abusers are totally great partners, except when they aren't.
What are you going to say in the next election when he runs again? What moral ground do you have to stand on when you've said that you can have both your racism and your $15? What hope do I have as a WOC have if you're telling me I can't have one without the other?
I guess this is where we differed: I took comments like Sanders's to mean that he *won't* accept that we have to take these things together, and that Trump's racism will be fought while his populist bullshit will be leveraged to force as much beneficial stuff through as possible.
But on reflection, this is still going to normalize racism and misogyny. It's the same deal that the unions tried to broker for themselves in the 1960s when their members decided that they could have all the benefits of a union and still exclude PoC workers and women. And the end result was that PoC and women were hurt, and hurt badly, and the unions self-destructed anyway.
You're right. There is no working with hate.
posted by kewb at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
What are you going to say in the next election when he runs again? What moral ground do you have to stand on when you've said that you can have both your racism and your $15? What hope do I have as a WOC have if you're telling me I can't have one without the other?
I guess this is where we differed: I took comments like Sanders's to mean that he *won't* accept that we have to take these things together, and that Trump's racism will be fought while his populist bullshit will be leveraged to force as much beneficial stuff through as possible.
But on reflection, this is still going to normalize racism and misogyny. It's the same deal that the unions tried to broker for themselves in the 1960s when their members decided that they could have all the benefits of a union and still exclude PoC workers and women. And the end result was that PoC and women were hurt, and hurt badly, and the unions self-destructed anyway.
You're right. There is no working with hate.
posted by kewb at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, I guess you are right. And here's some other potential positives:
-Unions are back (except they're also used to deport undocumented immigrants)
-We'll be out of the Middle East (but Muslims here are gonna be harassed and treated terribly)!
-A "coal rush", means an economic renaissance for Appalachia (because Donald doesn't give a fig about climate change)
As of last year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, black workers were more likely to be unionized than white, Asian, or Latino workers, and Trump has a long history of racism and of screwing workers at his businesses. Unions will not be back, except for the fraternal associations of police.
Trump has been more than bellicose about the Iran Deal and has surrounded himself with warmongering creeps. The US military won't leave the Middle East under his administration, and is likely to escalate its involvement in conflicts there.
And this coal rush idea, if actually put into motion, would be bad for the whole planet, as you say.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
-Unions are back (except they're also used to deport undocumented immigrants)
-We'll be out of the Middle East (but Muslims here are gonna be harassed and treated terribly)!
-A "coal rush", means an economic renaissance for Appalachia (because Donald doesn't give a fig about climate change)
As of last year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, black workers were more likely to be unionized than white, Asian, or Latino workers, and Trump has a long history of racism and of screwing workers at his businesses. Unions will not be back, except for the fraternal associations of police.
Trump has been more than bellicose about the Iran Deal and has surrounded himself with warmongering creeps. The US military won't leave the Middle East under his administration, and is likely to escalate its involvement in conflicts there.
And this coal rush idea, if actually put into motion, would be bad for the whole planet, as you say.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The racism at this point is a guaranteed for the next four years. It's baked into the equation.
No, it fucking isn't. Acquiescing to it guarantees it. Fighting tooth and nail and not selling these people out could mitigate a lot of it.
There are other people that are counting on their lives to be safeguarded.
Conveniently those are the WWC.
posted by chris24 at 9:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
No, it fucking isn't. Acquiescing to it guarantees it. Fighting tooth and nail and not selling these people out could mitigate a lot of it.
There are other people that are counting on their lives to be safeguarded.
Conveniently those are the WWC.
posted by chris24 at 9:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Who is walking away? How is Elected Trump different than Candidate Trump? How about we wait and see before extending the olive branch?
As long as "we" means "elected Democrats" and not "all of us who oppose Trump", the answer is that elected Democrats have a responsibility to try to limit Trump's harm to the country, and that means being there as much as they can to push him in the right direction. Knowing his personality, refusing to work with him just means he'll work exclusively with people who want to push him in the wrong direction on virtually every issue. There is no "walk away" option that doesn't lead to more harm to the people he campaigned on harming.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
As long as "we" means "elected Democrats" and not "all of us who oppose Trump", the answer is that elected Democrats have a responsibility to try to limit Trump's harm to the country, and that means being there as much as they can to push him in the right direction. Knowing his personality, refusing to work with him just means he'll work exclusively with people who want to push him in the wrong direction on virtually every issue. There is no "walk away" option that doesn't lead to more harm to the people he campaigned on harming.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would be more moved by that SNL cold open if they weren't happily playing into the media decision to normalize Trump and reinforce sexist stereotypes about Clinton this whole goddamn election season.
There's a lot of media hand-wringing and wailing going on. No so much examination of how their own behavior and norms shaped the election. You jumped from Trump scandal to Trump scandal, never giving any of them their due, treating him like a wacky sideshow whose monstrous promises were quirks. Meanwhile by making emails and naught but emails the central story about Clinton, you bolstered long-standing misogynist narratives about her being an inherently corrupt ladder climber.
As far as I'm concerned, the media can goo fuck itself. I wonder if any of them will reflect on their role in this before Trump starts arresting them.
posted by Anonymous at 9:08 AM on November 13, 2016
There's a lot of media hand-wringing and wailing going on. No so much examination of how their own behavior and norms shaped the election. You jumped from Trump scandal to Trump scandal, never giving any of them their due, treating him like a wacky sideshow whose monstrous promises were quirks. Meanwhile by making emails and naught but emails the central story about Clinton, you bolstered long-standing misogynist narratives about her being an inherently corrupt ladder climber.
As far as I'm concerned, the media can goo fuck itself. I wonder if any of them will reflect on their role in this before Trump starts arresting them.
posted by Anonymous at 9:08 AM on November 13, 2016
Just to get this straight: if a bill endorsed by Trump to raise the national minimum wage to $15 an hour comes before the house and Senate, Democrats and Independents should vote against it unless it also comes with a rider condemning Trump's racist, misogynistic remarks.*
Yes. Awful people do good things all the time.
Do you realize how fast such a strategy would be co-opted by the Republicans? Governance isn't an integrity contest, it's the actual machinery of how shit gets decided, and who gets to deicde it. You and I and all of Metafilter can wish it weren't so, but nobody in politics stays there unless they're willing to play that game.
I'm not being abstract here—pick any POC or LGBT person serving in either house of Congress, propose what you're proposing, and see what they say.
posted by Rykey at 9:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes. Awful people do good things all the time.
Do you realize how fast such a strategy would be co-opted by the Republicans? Governance isn't an integrity contest, it's the actual machinery of how shit gets decided, and who gets to deicde it. You and I and all of Metafilter can wish it weren't so, but nobody in politics stays there unless they're willing to play that game.
I'm not being abstract here—pick any POC or LGBT person serving in either house of Congress, propose what you're proposing, and see what they say.
posted by Rykey at 9:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
anyone else having trouble figuring out how to deal with trump supporting coworkers without getting fired????
Yes and being public-sector makes it even more disgusting somehow. I've considered reporting one for workplace intimidation and Hatch Act violations (he decorates his cube with political cartoons and literally never shuts up) but I have a feeling it won't go anywhere. For now I'm settling for wearing headphones and being as anti-social as humanly possible.
posted by photo guy at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes and being public-sector makes it even more disgusting somehow. I've considered reporting one for workplace intimidation and Hatch Act violations (he decorates his cube with political cartoons and literally never shuts up) but I have a feeling it won't go anywhere. For now I'm settling for wearing headphones and being as anti-social as humanly possible.
posted by photo guy at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do you realize how fast such a strategy would be co-opted by the Republicans?
Umm, do you realize that has pretty much been the Republican strategy for the last 8 years?
posted by chris24 at 9:12 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Umm, do you realize that has pretty much been the Republican strategy for the last 8 years?
posted by chris24 at 9:12 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
As we assemble in a circle in our sackcloth and ashes and load our guns to indulge in the losing Democrat's favorite pastime, it is worth keeping in mind that the Director of the FBI alone made a shocking difference - even specifically with his exoneration two days before the election.
Drum: Both the Trump campaign and the Clinton campaign agree that Comey's intervention played a significant role in the election. It wasn't Clinton's only problem, but at this point it's just special pleading to pretend that it wasn't a key reason for her loss. If it weren't for Comey, nobody would be talking about the white working class or disenchanted millennials or third-party candidates. We'd be talking instead about the implosion of the Republican Party and arguing over who Clinton should choose as her Treasury Secretary.
As far as October/November surprises go, this one will go down in history as a masterpiece of the genre.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Drum: Both the Trump campaign and the Clinton campaign agree that Comey's intervention played a significant role in the election. It wasn't Clinton's only problem, but at this point it's just special pleading to pretend that it wasn't a key reason for her loss. If it weren't for Comey, nobody would be talking about the white working class or disenchanted millennials or third-party candidates. We'd be talking instead about the implosion of the Republican Party and arguing over who Clinton should choose as her Treasury Secretary.
As far as October/November surprises go, this one will go down in history as a masterpiece of the genre.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Still ranting and lying about the Times this morning. I mean for fuck's sake Breitbart has a column saying he said it. "Trump: ‘I Hate Proliferation’ But It Would Be Better if Japan, Saudi Arabia, and South Korea Had Nuclear Weapons"
@realDonaldTrump
The @nytimes states today that DJT believes "more countries should acquire nuclear weapons." How dishonest are they. I never said this!
posted by chris24 at 9:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
The @nytimes states today that DJT believes "more countries should acquire nuclear weapons." How dishonest are they. I never said this!
posted by chris24 at 9:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Interesting, if over-the-top, criticism of the Democratic party. (Also full of vitriol and insult, but is worth thinking about, imo).
@jakebackpack:
@jakebackpack:
1. Common trope in media criticism: the media is/was structurally incapable of noting that the GOP is no longer a "normal" political party.posted by Golden Eternity at 9:25 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
2. Wrong! The GOP is a normal political party. It's the Democrats that are something else.
3. The GOP is a distasteful, racist, weird party. Sure. But its fundamental commitment at all levels is getting itself elected.
4. That's what parties do. Their whole purpose is to provide an infrastructure through which individual candidates can win office.
5. The Democrats, on the other hand, are something more like a nebulous consultancy for people too lazy to finish grad school.
6. The Democrats are a "strategic communications firm" that bills city govs looking for "smart solutions" to "the problems of tomorrow."
7. I make fun of the GOP as a party of professional grifters, which they are. But the Braziles of the world are running the *real* scam.
8. In the immortal words of Frank Zappa, "we're only in it for the money."
9. If you try to understand the Democrats as a political party, you come away confused. If you consider them a "think tank," they make sense
10. Like a think tank, their main purpose is to employ failed academics, the Yglesii of the world pretending to do research.
11. The Dems' main concern is to scam 6-fig salaries for guys with Ivy-League BAs, too dumb to manage grad schools language requirements.
12. We laugh about all the right-wing welfare publications, but the whole Democratic party is welfare for Ivy-League mediocrities.
13. The GOP is shitty, but it's a regular, recognizable political party. Sure, it's got plenty of scammers, but at a fundamental level?
14. What did the GOP do, in and out of power? It thought about winning elections, starting at the state level.
15. What did the Dems do? They gave each other jobs. When they accidentally got power, they dithered and compromised.
19. "For every vote we lose in central PA, we'll gain 2 republicans in the suburbs?" Lol. Sounds like a "communications" grift to me.
No, it's not.
Every bit of that except 14 is Not Even Wrong. It's all Faux News/Rush Limbaugh propaganda.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
Every bit of that except 14 is Not Even Wrong. It's all Faux News/Rush Limbaugh propaganda.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
Sanders hasn't actually declared loyalty to Trump.
yeah, anybody who's reading Bernie's comments as an endorsement of Trump really needs to take a deep breath or two, and while they're at it, examine their biases*. He effectively cherry-picked the very best details from Trump's convoluted platform and challenged the guy to pursue them ... or else. In other words -- what he offered was velvet covered threat.
* my personal bias is that I always viewed Bernie as a threat to this kind of election result happening; regardless of how much I agreed with his policies, this was trumped by my view of his arrival on the scene as too-little, too-late and only something that could divide the so-called progressive vote. But that was then. Now, he's a good man in a position to fight a good fight. I'm with him all the way.
posted by philip-random at 9:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
yeah, anybody who's reading Bernie's comments as an endorsement of Trump really needs to take a deep breath or two, and while they're at it, examine their biases*. He effectively cherry-picked the very best details from Trump's convoluted platform and challenged the guy to pursue them ... or else. In other words -- what he offered was velvet covered threat.
* my personal bias is that I always viewed Bernie as a threat to this kind of election result happening; regardless of how much I agreed with his policies, this was trumped by my view of his arrival on the scene as too-little, too-late and only something that could divide the so-called progressive vote. But that was then. Now, he's a good man in a position to fight a good fight. I'm with him all the way.
posted by philip-random at 9:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
whoa he's still going on about the NYT?
guys, I'm angry at the media too, but christ damn is it scary that he's going after them NOW. There's not even like a *let's let the media normalize this* period. It's straight into *let's give the rage of the left something to coalesce around*
posted by angrycat at 9:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
guys, I'm angry at the media too, but christ damn is it scary that he's going after them NOW. There's not even like a *let's let the media normalize this* period. It's straight into *let's give the rage of the left something to coalesce around*
posted by angrycat at 9:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
"For every vote we lose in central PA, we'll gain 2 republicans in the suburbs?"
Yeah, not a big fan of this tweetstorm. And his post on the above is incorrect. This wasn't some grift, it was a strategic error that helped cost Dems the election. Dems underestimated the racism of suburban white women. Well, white people in general but they had higher hopes for white women. They came home to Trump in big numbers. As mentioned above in Jamelle Bouie's essay on why Obama voters went Trump, the preservation of white primacy overrode Trump's misogyny and manifest unfitness for office.
posted by chris24 at 9:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, not a big fan of this tweetstorm. And his post on the above is incorrect. This wasn't some grift, it was a strategic error that helped cost Dems the election. Dems underestimated the racism of suburban white women. Well, white people in general but they had higher hopes for white women. They came home to Trump in big numbers. As mentioned above in Jamelle Bouie's essay on why Obama voters went Trump, the preservation of white primacy overrode Trump's misogyny and manifest unfitness for office.
posted by chris24 at 9:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
It hit me in the gut today while reading about current events that I finally get how a Hitler type can happen. I've read, I've studied, I've tried to understand the social processes but even with all of that there is still that lack of REALLY getting it, mostly how things that in hindsight seem quite obvious as yes, that is part of it either get dismissed as hysterical, argued about or just glossed over.
It's not that in general all people are bad or stupid but is due to rather human need to hold onto hope (that it's not really that bad) and struggle to keep things 'normal' simply because normal is more comfortable and has reference points. I know this underlines the whole process of referred to as normalization. It's just humbling and utterly surreal to realize that 'yes I am watching this process unfold on a day to day basis' I think what's hit me most is that this normalization process does not just stem from bad intentions but really honestly good intentions that in different scenario are the ones that are celebrated. Unity, coming together, blah blah. These ARE normally good things to aspire too!
Also seeing how the screamers 'don't you see what is happening and we can't be normal in response to this, this is an entirely different chess board' are being dismissed is quite something, because that definitely happened historically as well. It's like watching an old history textbook come to life.
I still don't think it's a done deal and that 'a Hitler' is inevitable. The wild card as I see it, is the stunning lack of competance of the individuals involved. The irony is that the primacy of EGO above all else could ironically be what saves it from be as devastating as it could be as what the EGO desires become more and more unworkable for the others trying to exert their power.
It is a wild card though as I could see it going the other way.
I dunno. Right now I feel pretty at a loss and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Jalliah at 9:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
Maybe I'm losing it, but I'm starting to get really hopeful that the way Trump addresses his failure to achieve any of his major campaign promises is the same way he addressed his failures during the campaign - straight up denying and lying.
You promised you would bring jobs back to Pennsylvania.
-- No I didn't.
I thought you said you would tear up the Iran deal
-- WRONG!
Why didn't you build a wall?
-- I did. (points to empty space) It's right there.
posted by Mchelly at 9:46 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
You promised you would bring jobs back to Pennsylvania.
-- No I didn't.
I thought you said you would tear up the Iran deal
-- WRONG!
Why didn't you build a wall?
-- I did. (points to empty space) It's right there.
posted by Mchelly at 9:46 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
seconding "not even wrong", e.g.
2. There was a GOP sworn to "one-term president".
3. The first 100 days was the stimulus (in fact, the first 30 days). Then came healthcare.
There is a valid criticism that certain aspects of Dem campaigns have been driven by ideas of "messaging" drawn from the marketing/comms industry, but it's difficult to counter that when the right has its own parallel news empire on top of a morass of conspiracy-nut fiction tuned for self-amplification.
posted by holgate at 9:46 AM on November 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
16. People mock Trump's laziness, but what did Obama do in the first 100 days with a supermajority? Make some laconic comments?1. There wasn't a supermajority until Franken was sworn in.
2. There was a GOP sworn to "one-term president".
3. The first 100 days was the stimulus (in fact, the first 30 days). Then came healthcare.
There is a valid criticism that certain aspects of Dem campaigns have been driven by ideas of "messaging" drawn from the marketing/comms industry, but it's difficult to counter that when the right has its own parallel news empire on top of a morass of conspiracy-nut fiction tuned for self-amplification.
posted by holgate at 9:46 AM on November 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
The wild card as I see it, is the stunning lack of competence of the individuals involved.
Hitler was a hapless buffoon himself. You don't need a lot of competence if your goal isn't to govern well but to get revenge on your enemies, make large idiotic gestures to appeal to your base, and use your power to enrich yourself and your family. Trump is certainly competent in running a nice, comfy scam, and vindictively punishing people who cross him.
posted by dis_integration at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Hitler was a hapless buffoon himself. You don't need a lot of competence if your goal isn't to govern well but to get revenge on your enemies, make large idiotic gestures to appeal to your base, and use your power to enrich yourself and your family. Trump is certainly competent in running a nice, comfy scam, and vindictively punishing people who cross him.
posted by dis_integration at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
but it's difficult to counter that when the right has its own parallel news empire on top of a morass of conspiracy-nut fiction tuned for self-amplification.
Just pointing out that Hillary came really close to doing so. And she wasn't a hugely popular candidate.
At this point, I'm thinking the Democrats can just do whatever Hillary did, add on more time in the Rustbelt directly outlining how a policy will bring them jobs and then hire Obama's polling team to repeat steps and boom, problem solved.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
Just pointing out that Hillary came really close to doing so. And she wasn't a hugely popular candidate.
At this point, I'm thinking the Democrats can just do whatever Hillary did, add on more time in the Rustbelt directly outlining how a policy will bring them jobs and then hire Obama's polling team to repeat steps and boom, problem solved.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:53 AM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
Hitler was a hapless buffoon himself. You don't need a lot of competence if your goal isn't to govern well but to get revenge on your enemies, make large idiotic gestures to appeal to your base, and use your power to enrich yourself and your family. Trump is certainly competent in running a nice, comfy scam, and vindictively punishing people who cross him.
Yes I get that. I'm referring more to the people that he is surrounding himself with. Hitler was a buffoon but he did at least have the capacity to surround himself with more competent people. Sychophants yes, but competent in what they had to do. That's the wild card I'm talking about. I'm also not suggesting that even incompetence can't or won't lead to very bad things. It's about relevance on the spectrum of 'bad'.
posted by Jalliah at 10:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes I get that. I'm referring more to the people that he is surrounding himself with. Hitler was a buffoon but he did at least have the capacity to surround himself with more competent people. Sychophants yes, but competent in what they had to do. That's the wild card I'm talking about. I'm also not suggesting that even incompetence can't or won't lead to very bad things. It's about relevance on the spectrum of 'bad'.
posted by Jalliah at 10:02 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
What Brandon says, plus maybe a little more time & effort turning out the under-45 voters for more of a safety margin.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by soundguy99 at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2016
I think sanders needs to choose his acolyte....start up with rallies now. Get people excited and say to everyone...this gal (or guy) right here is sanders 2.0. Let's organize from the ground up and turn this thing around.
posted by ian1977 at 10:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 10:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Both Clinton and Warren have already asked to work with Trump. This isn't even a tu quoque. This is literally standard procedure for recognizing the winning side of an election.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:11 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
this gal (or guy) right here is sanders 2.0
It looks to me like he's chosen Keith Ellison.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2016
It looks to me like he's chosen Keith Ellison.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2016
I'm referring more to the people that he is surrounding himself with.
These people are a start. These are early days. These are just the beginning. More shapeshifting reptilian humanoids will emerge.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2016
These people are a start. These are early days. These are just the beginning. More shapeshifting reptilian humanoids will emerge.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2016
Oh, no, it's way too early to be talking about 2020. Thinking about it? Sure. Making it a centerpiece of our strategy? No way.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:15 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
ZeusHumms: Cheaper, more widespread broadband, like what was done with rural electrification and access to phone networks.
Do we have any data that this helps?
posted by bluecore
No idea. Will keep an eye out for such things beyond the anecdote.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:16 AM on November 13, 2016
Do we have any data that this helps?
posted by bluecore
No idea. Will keep an eye out for such things beyond the anecdote.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:16 AM on November 13, 2016
Okay then rallies now and American idol style competition for 2020 pres.
posted by ian1977 at 10:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ian1977 at 10:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Historical perspective hot take on Medium. I've decided to read a bunch of stuff under the Donald Trump tag on Medium today. This one: scary and not implausible IMO
posted by Golem XIV at 10:25 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Golem XIV at 10:25 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Both Clinton and Warren have already asked to work with Trump.
I have the same issue with Warren I have with Sanders. Clinton and Obama as the conceding candidate and sitting president get a little more leeway in their response. Everybody else should be more Harry Reid.
posted by chris24 at 10:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have the same issue with Warren I have with Sanders. Clinton and Obama as the conceding candidate and sitting president get a little more leeway in their response. Everybody else should be more Harry Reid.
posted by chris24 at 10:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
At this point, I'm thinking the Democrats can just do whatever Hillary did, add on more time in the Rustbelt directly outlining how a policy will bring them jobs and then hire Obama's polling team to repeat steps and boom, problem solved.
Don't forget to add the secret sauce of what will almost certainly be very low Trump/GOP approval ratings.
Oh, no, it's way too early to be talking about 2020. Thinking about it? Sure.
One of my vague plans, related to being a professional dork, is to watch Democratic senators and governors to see who might start talking more populist-ey than they had been, who maybe takes speaking invitations in the midwest, etc, to see who's maybe setting themselves up. Like, if Gillibrand suddenly turns from mostly-milquetoast to firebrand, or if Steve Bullock or Kate Brown start trying to appear on the national stage.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't forget to add the secret sauce of what will almost certainly be very low Trump/GOP approval ratings.
Oh, no, it's way too early to be talking about 2020. Thinking about it? Sure.
One of my vague plans, related to being a professional dork, is to watch Democratic senators and governors to see who might start talking more populist-ey than they had been, who maybe takes speaking invitations in the midwest, etc, to see who's maybe setting themselves up. Like, if Gillibrand suddenly turns from mostly-milquetoast to firebrand, or if Steve Bullock or Kate Brown start trying to appear on the national stage.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everybody else should be more Harry Reid.
Harry Reid doesn't have the responsibility to work to stop Trump anymore. I'm glad he said what he did, but his approach doesn't serve as a good template for those who will have to try to convince Trump to show restraint.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Harry Reid doesn't have the responsibility to work to stop Trump anymore. I'm glad he said what he did, but his approach doesn't serve as a good template for those who will have to try to convince Trump to show restraint.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm losing it, but I'm starting to get really hopeful that the way Trump addresses his failure to achieve any of his major campaign promises is the same way he addressed his failures during the campaign - straight up denying and lying.
Well that and persecuting critics into submission:
You promised you would bring jobs back to Pennsylvania!
-- Why are you threatening the president?
Why am I ...? But, I never ... WHAT!?
-- Please don't raise your voice or you might be mistaken for a terrorist.
A TERRORIST? Are you fucking kidding me? It's my right as a free citizen ...
-- It's your right to remain silent. Everything you say can and WILL be used against you...
posted by sour cream at 10:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well that and persecuting critics into submission:
You promised you would bring jobs back to Pennsylvania!
-- Why are you threatening the president?
Why am I ...? But, I never ... WHAT!?
-- Please don't raise your voice or you might be mistaken for a terrorist.
A TERRORIST? Are you fucking kidding me? It's my right as a free citizen ...
-- It's your right to remain silent. Everything you say can and WILL be used against you...
posted by sour cream at 10:36 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
who will have to try to convince Trump to show restraint.
Yeah, good luck with that.
posted by chris24 at 10:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, good luck with that.
posted by chris24 at 10:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
And the truly difficult question is how do we get those in the rural bubble to broaden their views? Maybe this is despair talking, but that seems intractable so long as Fox and Breitbart are around.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:34 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
Immiserate them out of existence. Robots can be built to farm, too, you know.
posted by Chrischris at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:34 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
Immiserate them out of existence. Robots can be built to farm, too, you know.
posted by Chrischris at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, good luck with that.
Again, because he's not an ideologue, he's shown a willingness to listen to the last person he talked to. Is your alternative to just walk away and let him listen only to Paul Ryans, Rudy Giulianis, and Steve Bannons?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Again, because he's not an ideologue, he's shown a willingness to listen to the last person he talked to. Is your alternative to just walk away and let him listen only to Paul Ryans, Rudy Giulianis, and Steve Bannons?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Marcy Wheeler: What Was the Role of ObamaCare Premium Hikes in Trump’s Win?
The press started reporting that increases would happen before they were announced. To prepare for that, on October 20, Obama, in what was treated by some as a campaign stop in Miami but what was technically a policy speech on the increases, had this to say (after having delivered a long explanation that ObamaCare was working just as planned). [...]posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on November 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
One of the problems with ObamaCare is its complexity. If it takes 7 paragraphs to try to make a big rate hike sound better, it’s not going to work.
The actual rates for ObamaCare plan increases — with an average increase of 22% — came out October 24. There was a great deal of chatter between then and the election, especially around the November 1 start of sign-ups, as the Administration scrambled to get users to shop for a more affordable plan. Significantly, PA was one of the worst affected states.
According to a Kaiser Family Foundation, the ObamaCare hikes should not have mattered. It released a poll showing even among Republican voters, just 5% thought heath insurance was the most important issue. Except the poll, which was released on October 27, right in the middle of the discussion about spiking rates, was actually conducted from October 12 to 18, before the rate increases were announced (which to my mind makes it a largely useless but politically timed poll release). Moreover, the poll sampled far more self-identified Democrats than self-identified Republicans (408 to 285), meaning the margins of error would be far higher for Trump-leaning voters.
But in polls of voters taken after the election, repealing ObamaCare was the top priority among Republicans. 74% of those polled wanted to repeal ObamaCare, versus 30% who wanted to build Trump’s wall.
74% of Republicans want to repeal ObamaCare. Over/under on Republicans who could explain what ObamaCare actually does I'd put at 18%.
posted by Justinian at 10:56 AM on November 13, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:56 AM on November 13, 2016 [22 favorites]
The Democratic Party is going to take the high road. That means "play ball" according to a set governing principles that other side is pissing on like Calvin.
The democrats are trying to play "by the rules softball" with an asshole bully playing calvinball, who incidentally, is not afraid to kick someone in the balls and laugh in their face.
And I agree with what Jalliah is saying. This little shit is on the field playing a disgusting game, but his more sinister friends are sitting in their mustangs in the parking lot and those people are the ones who have no problem seriously fucking anyone up for whatever reason they want, so long as they get whatever it is they decide is due to them. It is those people I fear right now. Trump is a fucking joke.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
The democrats are trying to play "by the rules softball" with an asshole bully playing calvinball, who incidentally, is not afraid to kick someone in the balls and laugh in their face.
And I agree with what Jalliah is saying. This little shit is on the field playing a disgusting game, but his more sinister friends are sitting in their mustangs in the parking lot and those people are the ones who have no problem seriously fucking anyone up for whatever reason they want, so long as they get whatever it is they decide is due to them. It is those people I fear right now. Trump is a fucking joke.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
1. Semi-automated corporate mega farms. 100,000+ acre farms remotely operated by off-site technicians and a tiny cadre of on-site maintenance personnel.
2. Vat grown proteins, which will destroy animal husbandry and egg production.
3. The gradual desertification of the Plains states as climate induced drought and the consolidation
of water rights by above named corporations takes place.
4. The consolidation of the industrial agricultural jobs base (Tractors/equipment/seed/chemicals/elevators) as all of these are vertically integrated and controlled by the megafarms.
In 40 years, we won't need to worry too much about "rural" America, because there simply won't be enough rural American left to form any sort of voting bloc.
posted by Chrischris at 11:00 AM on November 13, 2016
2. Vat grown proteins, which will destroy animal husbandry and egg production.
3. The gradual desertification of the Plains states as climate induced drought and the consolidation
of water rights by above named corporations takes place.
4. The consolidation of the industrial agricultural jobs base (Tractors/equipment/seed/chemicals/elevators) as all of these are vertically integrated and controlled by the megafarms.
In 40 years, we won't need to worry too much about "rural" America, because there simply won't be enough rural American left to form any sort of voting bloc.
posted by Chrischris at 11:00 AM on November 13, 2016
74% of Republicans want to repeal ObamaCare. Over/under on Republicans who could explain what ObamaCare actually does I'd put at 18%.
Yeah but I'd only put the same number for Democrats at around 25%. The healthcare delivery and insurance system is complex, and the ACA added to the complexity. I still believe it was worth it and that it was the most we could get at the time, but I think the premium increases should be added to the possible list of causal factors that caused the late break for Trump.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah but I'd only put the same number for Democrats at around 25%. The healthcare delivery and insurance system is complex, and the ACA added to the complexity. I still believe it was worth it and that it was the most we could get at the time, but I think the premium increases should be added to the possible list of causal factors that caused the late break for Trump.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Democratic Party is going to take the high road. That means "play ball" according to a set governing principles that other side is pissing on like Calvin.
No, it means showing up to the game. It means arguing over the rules. It means resisting when he tries to break them. Again, what is the alternative? Strongly worded speeches on Sunday morning talk shows are not going to stop Trumpism.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
No, it means showing up to the game. It means arguing over the rules. It means resisting when he tries to break them. Again, what is the alternative? Strongly worded speeches on Sunday morning talk shows are not going to stop Trumpism.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:03 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is your alternative to just walk away and let him listen only to Paul Ryans, Rudy Giulianis, and Steve Bannons?
I'm not sure the small chance that this has any significant benefit given that Bannon et al will always have the last word is worth appearing to sell out the most dependable constituency in the Dem coalition. A constituency that often gets fucked for political and other reasons.
posted by chris24 at 11:04 AM on November 13, 2016
I'm not sure the small chance that this has any significant benefit given that Bannon et al will always have the last word is worth appearing to sell out the most dependable constituency in the Dem coalition. A constituency that often gets fucked for political and other reasons.
posted by chris24 at 11:04 AM on November 13, 2016
So, this thread is unwieldy on mobile. Are we planning another thread, or perhaps raising the idea of a politics subsite?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:05 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:05 AM on November 13, 2016
> My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them.
> anyone else having trouble figuring out how to deal with trump supporting coworkers without getting fired????
> I haven't had a non-work-related conversation since Tuesday and I don't plan to have any for the next four years, me.
The thing is, whether they are actively racist or misogynist, or just passively so, it's still the case that (a) they are not doomed to those views for their rest of their lives, but (b) trying to persuade them to feel otherwise is a near-impossible, and certainly very unpleasant, series of conversations that will almost certainly poison your work atmosphere.
But the thing is, we've entered dark times where it is hard to know what to do on the individual scale, especially in the short term, apart from the usual organize-harder bromides. But if you are a white guy in particular, there is something you can do right now, that is hard, unpleasant, of very uncertain payoff, with fairly certain negative payoffs -- but necessary. You have to start talking to these latent-or-explicit assholes about why they did what they did, what they think they are doing, what they want, what they believe about themselves, who they are hurting, why that matters, and all the other hopeless and unpleasant stuff we all despair over. Because that is the only way forward. I do think we can win further elections by offering them a more explicitly progressive economic platform, but that in itself will not solve these problems of racism, sexism, xenophobia, and active-or-passive hate. That stuff has to be confronted, the only way we know works: direct person-to-person conversation over periods of weeks, months, and years. It will totally suck, and rarely work. but it is absolutely, inescapably necessary. And it's especially (though of course not exclusively) the job of white men now. Asking people of color, women, LGBT folks, and so on to speak reasonably with these people who actively-or-passively hate them is requesting a herculean, MLK-scale task, though of course many do take it up. But even so, a lot of these asshole white guys will avoid or tune many such people out. So in many ways the immediate job of pissing off your coworkers with your bleeding-heart, PC, holier-than-though, overly-considerate or overly-confrontational, workplace-upstinking efforts falls especially to the white liberal men. You have to get out there and start moving folks, one mind and one tiny nudge at a time, wherever and whenever you can.
posted by chortly at 11:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
> anyone else having trouble figuring out how to deal with trump supporting coworkers without getting fired????
> I haven't had a non-work-related conversation since Tuesday and I don't plan to have any for the next four years, me.
The thing is, whether they are actively racist or misogynist, or just passively so, it's still the case that (a) they are not doomed to those views for their rest of their lives, but (b) trying to persuade them to feel otherwise is a near-impossible, and certainly very unpleasant, series of conversations that will almost certainly poison your work atmosphere.
But the thing is, we've entered dark times where it is hard to know what to do on the individual scale, especially in the short term, apart from the usual organize-harder bromides. But if you are a white guy in particular, there is something you can do right now, that is hard, unpleasant, of very uncertain payoff, with fairly certain negative payoffs -- but necessary. You have to start talking to these latent-or-explicit assholes about why they did what they did, what they think they are doing, what they want, what they believe about themselves, who they are hurting, why that matters, and all the other hopeless and unpleasant stuff we all despair over. Because that is the only way forward. I do think we can win further elections by offering them a more explicitly progressive economic platform, but that in itself will not solve these problems of racism, sexism, xenophobia, and active-or-passive hate. That stuff has to be confronted, the only way we know works: direct person-to-person conversation over periods of weeks, months, and years. It will totally suck, and rarely work. but it is absolutely, inescapably necessary. And it's especially (though of course not exclusively) the job of white men now. Asking people of color, women, LGBT folks, and so on to speak reasonably with these people who actively-or-passively hate them is requesting a herculean, MLK-scale task, though of course many do take it up. But even so, a lot of these asshole white guys will avoid or tune many such people out. So in many ways the immediate job of pissing off your coworkers with your bleeding-heart, PC, holier-than-though, overly-considerate or overly-confrontational, workplace-upstinking efforts falls especially to the white liberal men. You have to get out there and start moving folks, one mind and one tiny nudge at a time, wherever and whenever you can.
posted by chortly at 11:05 AM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Over/under on Republicans who could explain what ObamaCare actually does I'd put at 18%.
What percentage of Republicans would you say knows that the basic features of Obamacare were the Republican response to "Hillarycare" in the early 1990s?
The biggest thing I've learned from this election is that racists sure are a bunch of thin-skinned crybabies.
posted by TedW at 11:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
What percentage of Republicans would you say knows that the basic features of Obamacare were the Republican response to "Hillarycare" in the early 1990s?
The biggest thing I've learned from this election is that racists sure are a bunch of thin-skinned crybabies.
posted by TedW at 11:06 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
What's missing in all the teeth gnashing about Cheeto Jesus is a narrative for the immediate future.
There's the likely, which runs along the lines of, C.J. sets up his 'cabinet' and lines up his lobbyists, and gradually lets it sink in that he has 1. won this thing. And 2. Profit!
In this scenario, nothing particularly extraordinary happens. On Inauguration day it steps up to the plate and declares, officially, that the rational mind of the nation's political brain is now gone fishin' and the USA takes it on the chin. The Republican organ of communication continues to wheeze out its lies and blame everyone else and etc. etc. etc. Remember point two from directly above, well that bites him in the butt and he is impeached within the year but not without first fucking us sideways by pandering to Putin and screwing mightily and inexpertly with the Paris Climate Accord.
The other possible narrative, and perfectly in line with this whacky/excruciating year but kind of only if you're a believer in the mighty Cheeto Jesus, is that it turns out the Russia thing has specific, loan-related, legs and Cheeto Jesus owes his ball-sack and the ball sacks of his sons to a certain Russian Oligarch who just so happens to be a loosely concealed front-man for a … I'll skip spelling it out but suffice it to say, facts come to light (maybe his IRS forms will show up in someone's in-box) and the creature from white U!S!A!'s id suddenly appears so extravagantly compromised that even a majority of the folks that voted for him see the sense in looking for a way out.
But how? The pundits despair. He's already been elected! We can't ignore the voice of the people!
No, we can't. But he hasn't actually been elected yet. And here, a flotilla of trust-worthy media presences will have to be floated out into the media sphere to relate that, in fact, it's all no big deal. The founding fathers have foreseen just this eventuality, in fact that is precisely why the electoral college was whipped up. To protect We The People from such perfidy. And protect us they can and will in a Consitutionally Perfect Display of Democracy in action!
And so, on December 20th, at the convening of the Electoral College, the votes flop and … sadly, and Mike Pence is elected president.
DJT breathes a sigh of relief and retreats to his penthouse lair to work with his lawyers, while Mike Pence sets about establishing the Theocracy We Always Wanted Even If We Didn't Know it – only to have his plans thwarted by persistent rumors that back in college he was pretty especially 'chummy' with his roommate. And the roommate after that. In fact, until the day he married his parents were expecting 'the talk' and even thought they had themselves prepared for what they would say...
The Democratic Party shakes off it's malaise, and takes back Senate and breaks the House and the next two years are tough, but unremarkable.
Upshot, We take it on the neck, but at least we don't have That Russian Guy taking over the world and … any of a number of other frankly way way way too likely catastrophes beating us to a paste it takes forty years to recover from in the meantime.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's the likely, which runs along the lines of, C.J. sets up his 'cabinet' and lines up his lobbyists, and gradually lets it sink in that he has 1. won this thing. And 2. Profit!
In this scenario, nothing particularly extraordinary happens. On Inauguration day it steps up to the plate and declares, officially, that the rational mind of the nation's political brain is now gone fishin' and the USA takes it on the chin. The Republican organ of communication continues to wheeze out its lies and blame everyone else and etc. etc. etc. Remember point two from directly above, well that bites him in the butt and he is impeached within the year but not without first fucking us sideways by pandering to Putin and screwing mightily and inexpertly with the Paris Climate Accord.
The other possible narrative, and perfectly in line with this whacky/excruciating year but kind of only if you're a believer in the mighty Cheeto Jesus, is that it turns out the Russia thing has specific, loan-related, legs and Cheeto Jesus owes his ball-sack and the ball sacks of his sons to a certain Russian Oligarch who just so happens to be a loosely concealed front-man for a … I'll skip spelling it out but suffice it to say, facts come to light (maybe his IRS forms will show up in someone's in-box) and the creature from white U!S!A!'s id suddenly appears so extravagantly compromised that even a majority of the folks that voted for him see the sense in looking for a way out.
But how? The pundits despair. He's already been elected! We can't ignore the voice of the people!
No, we can't. But he hasn't actually been elected yet. And here, a flotilla of trust-worthy media presences will have to be floated out into the media sphere to relate that, in fact, it's all no big deal. The founding fathers have foreseen just this eventuality, in fact that is precisely why the electoral college was whipped up. To protect We The People from such perfidy. And protect us they can and will in a Consitutionally Perfect Display of Democracy in action!
And so, on December 20th, at the convening of the Electoral College, the votes flop and … sadly, and Mike Pence is elected president.
DJT breathes a sigh of relief and retreats to his penthouse lair to work with his lawyers, while Mike Pence sets about establishing the Theocracy We Always Wanted Even If We Didn't Know it – only to have his plans thwarted by persistent rumors that back in college he was pretty especially 'chummy' with his roommate. And the roommate after that. In fact, until the day he married his parents were expecting 'the talk' and even thought they had themselves prepared for what they would say...
The Democratic Party shakes off it's malaise, and takes back Senate and breaks the House and the next two years are tough, but unremarkable.
Upshot, We take it on the neck, but at least we don't have That Russian Guy taking over the world and … any of a number of other frankly way way way too likely catastrophes beating us to a paste it takes forty years to recover from in the meantime.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:08 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
appearing to sell out the most dependable constituency in the Dem coalition
I'm going to wait to hear more from prominent leaders in that constituency before assuming they don't want their elected leaders showing up to resist the enemy. Rev. William Barber spent a great deal of time on his conference call this morning talking about what we do now, and I would encourage you to listen to it if you haven't already. His job is more about leadership of the movement and less about the elected officials, but it sounded to me like a call to resist Trump on every front. I'd be shocked if prominent leaders want Democrats to just take the next two years off to "send a message" when that message can be delivered directly in meetings with him and his underlings.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm going to wait to hear more from prominent leaders in that constituency before assuming they don't want their elected leaders showing up to resist the enemy. Rev. William Barber spent a great deal of time on his conference call this morning talking about what we do now, and I would encourage you to listen to it if you haven't already. His job is more about leadership of the movement and less about the elected officials, but it sounded to me like a call to resist Trump on every front. I'd be shocked if prominent leaders want Democrats to just take the next two years off to "send a message" when that message can be delivered directly in meetings with him and his underlings.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:10 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I still believe it was worth it and that it was the most we could get at the time, but I think the premium increases should be added to the possible list of causal factors that caused the late break for Trump.
You're likely right.
Somebody should probably tell them that if Trump repeals the individual mandate and the subsidies a 22% premium increase will look positively tame. We'll have 50 million uninsured Americans.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
You're likely right.
Somebody should probably tell them that if Trump repeals the individual mandate and the subsidies a 22% premium increase will look positively tame. We'll have 50 million uninsured Americans.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The pushback Sanders got for his statement is weird. Cory Booker is on Meet the Press right now saying essentially the same thing. He's talking about working across the aisle, blah blah blah. Why is what Sanders said any different?
posted by Justinian at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
assuming they don't want their elected leaders showing up to resist the enemy.
I want them to resist. I want them to fight tooth and nail. What I'm not so sure about is "sure, we can work together on this no problem" while ignoring all these other awful things they are doing. If a Republican selling out minorities for tax cuts is racism (outcomes, not intent), how is Democrats being more willing to work for wage increases than stopping minority oppression not also racism?
posted by chris24 at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016
I want them to resist. I want them to fight tooth and nail. What I'm not so sure about is "sure, we can work together on this no problem" while ignoring all these other awful things they are doing. If a Republican selling out minorities for tax cuts is racism (outcomes, not intent), how is Democrats being more willing to work for wage increases than stopping minority oppression not also racism?
posted by chris24 at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016
Okay everybody prepping to do the slog work of 2018, we have something to attend to NOW, here's the best article I've seen yet talking about the Louisiana runoff election with calls to action.
posted by foxfirefey at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by foxfirefey at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
And this coal rush idea, if actually put into motion, would be bad for the whole planet, as you say.
Right, but the original point is I don't get why we are looking at dropping TPP as a good thing of a Donald presidency, since Clinton said she'd do the same thing. It sounds like we're already trying to find ways to justify that Donald isn't so bad.
And as I mentioned earlier, I wasn't entirely on board with completely dropping TPP anyways. But at least I was okay with no TPP if it mean Clinton was president, since she'd be able to maintain good relations with critical East Asian allies, but I really don't see Donald helping on that front at all. Both killing TPP and having Donald as Chief Diplomat is the worst outcome.
posted by FJT at 11:27 AM on November 13, 2016
Right, but the original point is I don't get why we are looking at dropping TPP as a good thing of a Donald presidency, since Clinton said she'd do the same thing. It sounds like we're already trying to find ways to justify that Donald isn't so bad.
And as I mentioned earlier, I wasn't entirely on board with completely dropping TPP anyways. But at least I was okay with no TPP if it mean Clinton was president, since she'd be able to maintain good relations with critical East Asian allies, but I really don't see Donald helping on that front at all. Both killing TPP and having Donald as Chief Diplomat is the worst outcome.
posted by FJT at 11:27 AM on November 13, 2016
Why is what Sanders said any different?
The same bull-headed insistence on uncompromising purity that resulted in the BOBers?
posted by aspersioncast at 11:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The same bull-headed insistence on uncompromising purity that resulted in the BOBers?
posted by aspersioncast at 11:28 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
At this point, I'm not sure if by purity you mean from the pro-Bernie faction or from the anti-Bernie faction.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:29 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:29 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Democratic Party is going to take the high road. That means "play ball" according to a set governing principles that other side is pissing on like Calvin.
The more depressing way I would formulate this is, the Democratic party seems intent on playing Ned Stark to the Republicans' Littlefinger, Cersei, etc. If they don't wise up, they're going to honorably and nobly assist their way into their own execution.
posted by tocts at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
The more depressing way I would formulate this is, the Democratic party seems intent on playing Ned Stark to the Republicans' Littlefinger, Cersei, etc. If they don't wise up, they're going to honorably and nobly assist their way into their own execution.
posted by tocts at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean, Sanders said essentially "I believe in the things I've been preaching and will work for them with whomever is willing to push them forward, up to this line." Sanders isn't the problem.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:31 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
What about their messages suggest they will not work to stop minority oppression?
Them saying they'll work with Trump on things without saying that's dependent on him stopping oppression of minorities.
A good tweetstorm starts with this.
@AtLes69
It's impossible to translate opposition to anti-black racism into something sustainable while believing its agents should be aligned with.
posted by chris24 at 11:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Them saying they'll work with Trump on things without saying that's dependent on him stopping oppression of minorities.
A good tweetstorm starts with this.
@AtLes69
It's impossible to translate opposition to anti-black racism into something sustainable while believing its agents should be aligned with.
posted by chris24 at 11:34 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have insights to offer regarding differing trajectories between states like California which will have a large, robust economy, healthcare coverage, strong global economic ties, realistic immigration policies versus states like Kentucky being the polar opposite, with representatives like Mitch McConnell driving policy at the Federal level?
posted by effluvia at 11:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by effluvia at 11:37 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
This morning Paul Ryan said there will not be a deportation force. Tonight on 60 minutes we will see DJT saying 2, maybe 3 million illegal immigrants will be deported or jailed. Link to partial transcript on twitter.
This reminds me so much of the election campaign when his surrogates would say one thing and then he would say something different at a rally that day. Nobody -- not even DJT-- knows what he wants to do at any given moment. So this will be the hallmark of the Trump Presidency-- complete and utter chaos with no dependable policies.
I think the only thing that DJT wants 100% is abolishing the estate tax and cutting the taxes on his income. Everything else is up for grabs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
This reminds me so much of the election campaign when his surrogates would say one thing and then he would say something different at a rally that day. Nobody -- not even DJT-- knows what he wants to do at any given moment. So this will be the hallmark of the Trump Presidency-- complete and utter chaos with no dependable policies.
I think the only thing that DJT wants 100% is abolishing the estate tax and cutting the taxes on his income. Everything else is up for grabs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Don't forget to add the secret sauce of what will almost certainly be very low Trump/GOP approval ratings.
I'm not actually sure we can count on this. Trump has proven he's really good at figuring out popularity, and he gives zero fucks about "the future of America". What's to stop him taking WA, CA, and NY's tax money and dumping it into the Rust belt?
posted by corb at 11:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not actually sure we can count on this. Trump has proven he's really good at figuring out popularity, and he gives zero fucks about "the future of America". What's to stop him taking WA, CA, and NY's tax money and dumping it into the Rust belt?
posted by corb at 11:39 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
"sure, we can work together on this no problem"
Summarizing this:
posted by tonycpsu at 11:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Summarizing this:
“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”as "sure, we can work together on this no problem" is not a fair reading.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: I think the discussion about the whether and why and how of anti-Trump politicians nonetheless making diplomatic noises about trying to work together is worth having had, but at this point it feels like it is going in circles in this thread and there's a lot of disagreement on quotes and premises. I'm gonna suggest that we let it sit for a while as positions-pretty-clearly-stated instead of keeping at that circling.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:40 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Apocryphon whynotboth.pcd
hereforthecircularfiringsquad.jif.gif
posted by aspersioncast at 11:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
hereforthecircularfiringsquad.jif.gif
posted by aspersioncast at 11:41 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look, every success that Clinton had as a politician was a result of her taking whatever piece of ground she could get.
Angela Merkel said it best: “Germany and America are connected by values of democracy, freedom and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political views. I offer the next President of the United States close cooperation on the basis of these values.” And the consensus appears to be that it was a righteous dragging. But I can't see the difference, honestly, between what Sanders was trying to say* and what Merkel did say. Is it because Merkel put the "values" part first? Is it simply the difference in position? Is it the general history of the Dems? I don't get it.
*"We will be their worst nightmare" is some asinine puffed-up strongman talk and it leaves me cold but I get the gist you know
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
It wasn’t just Lott [on hurricane relief]. In 2006, the Times tallied up Clinton’s unusual alliances:If there is anything we can agree on and get done, well, that one thing is more than nothing.
“With Representative Tom DeLay it was foster children. Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House, jumped in with her on a health care initiative, and the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, was a partner on legislation concerning computerized medical records. The list goes on: Senator Robert Bennett on flag-burning; Senator Rick Santorum on children's exposure to graphic images; Senator John Sununu on S.U.V. taillights; Senator Mike DeWine on asthma.” (Vox)
Angela Merkel said it best: “Germany and America are connected by values of democracy, freedom and respect for the law and the dignity of man, independent of origin, skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political views. I offer the next President of the United States close cooperation on the basis of these values.” And the consensus appears to be that it was a righteous dragging. But I can't see the difference, honestly, between what Sanders was trying to say* and what Merkel did say. Is it because Merkel put the "values" part first? Is it simply the difference in position? Is it the general history of the Dems? I don't get it.
*"We will be their worst nightmare" is some asinine puffed-up strongman talk and it leaves me cold but I get the gist you know
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:42 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
So this will be the hallmark of the Trump Presidency-- complete and utter chaos with no dependable policies.
Not to minimize the dangers of a Trump presidency, but a historical question- isn't this what Reagan was all about? The Clothes Have No Emperor by Paul Slansky.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:42 AM on November 13, 2016
Not to minimize the dangers of a Trump presidency, but a historical question- isn't this what Reagan was all about? The Clothes Have No Emperor by Paul Slansky.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:42 AM on November 13, 2016
As I've said before, we should expect TPP rebranded from either Trump of Clinton, FJT. If you want a reason "Trump is not so bad" then the only two I've found so far are :
Hope 1. It's good the Democrats get punished for their Pied Piper strategy of promoting Trump during the Republican primary. It's great if the Democrats never try that again! We do not need both the Republicans and the Democrats trying to push the Republicans to be worse faster.
Hope 2. We need the Democrats to promote a wider array of left-wing ideologies than just neo-liberalism because otherwise they'll continue hemorrhaging not just voters but would-be politicians. Are you going to go into politics to be a neo-liberal? If not, then you'd almost no shot under the previous DNC. I think it's actually the Koch brothers who prevent the Republicans from becoming so ideologically controlled. We've no Koch brothers' to provide baseline funding for any would-be politician with a modicum of left-wing credibility, but maybe Trump's victory has damaged the neo-liberal wing of the Democrats enough that they'll let more people into the chain of command, and maybe that'll help us avert the Republicans winning the 75% of state legislatures that they need to pass amendments.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hope 1. It's good the Democrats get punished for their Pied Piper strategy of promoting Trump during the Republican primary. It's great if the Democrats never try that again! We do not need both the Republicans and the Democrats trying to push the Republicans to be worse faster.
Hope 2. We need the Democrats to promote a wider array of left-wing ideologies than just neo-liberalism because otherwise they'll continue hemorrhaging not just voters but would-be politicians. Are you going to go into politics to be a neo-liberal? If not, then you'd almost no shot under the previous DNC. I think it's actually the Koch brothers who prevent the Republicans from becoming so ideologically controlled. We've no Koch brothers' to provide baseline funding for any would-be politician with a modicum of left-wing credibility, but maybe Trump's victory has damaged the neo-liberal wing of the Democrats enough that they'll let more people into the chain of command, and maybe that'll help us avert the Republicans winning the 75% of state legislatures that they need to pass amendments.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:43 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't get why we are looking at dropping TPP as a good thing of a Donald presidency, since Clinton said she'd do the same thing
One of my misgivings about HRC was that I couldn't trust that she'd actually drop the TPP. Her opposition, such as it was, came quite late.
posted by rhizome at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
One of my misgivings about HRC was that I couldn't trust that she'd actually drop the TPP. Her opposition, such as it was, came quite late.
posted by rhizome at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
corb, I'm not seeing where he's particularly good at figuring out popularity, although I agree with your second point. People, a lot of people, hate this guy. He is enormously unpopular.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by aspersioncast at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2016
NBC Connecticut: Linda McMahon Considered for Secretary of Commerce: Sources
posted by Apocryphon at 11:49 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 11:49 AM on November 13, 2016
A very special Angry Indiana edition, brought to you by Tumblr (tons of links listing the horrible horrible things that Mike Pence has done)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:50 AM on November 13, 2016
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:50 AM on November 13, 2016
It's good the Democrats get punished for their Pied Piper strategy of promoting Trump during the Republican primary. It's great if the Democrats never try that again!
It's great that your kid got hit by a car! Maybe she'll learn to be more careful crossing the street!
posted by neroli at 11:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's great that your kid got hit by a car! Maybe she'll learn to be more careful crossing the street!
posted by neroli at 11:55 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
@WisVoter
my post-mortem on WI vote http://bit.ly/2eQ59Gg Trump's huge rural blow-out made up for soft numbers in big counties and suburban base
@BrendanNyhan Retweeted Craig Gilbert
Again, more consistent w/white identity politics/backlash vs cosmopolitanism than deindustrialization - not lot of factories in rural areas
posted by chris24 at 11:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
my post-mortem on WI vote http://bit.ly/2eQ59Gg Trump's huge rural blow-out made up for soft numbers in big counties and suburban base
@BrendanNyhan Retweeted Craig Gilbert
Again, more consistent w/white identity politics/backlash vs cosmopolitanism than deindustrialization - not lot of factories in rural areas
posted by chris24 at 11:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sean McElwee of Demos Action, writing for Salon: Yep, race really did Trump economics: A data dive on his supporters reveals deep racial animosity
posted by tonycpsu at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
There is a new post-US election thread now live.
posted by Wordshore at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordshore at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
As I've said before, we should expect TPP rebranded from either Trump of Clinton, FJT. If you want a reason "Trump is not so bad" then the only two I've found so far are :
TPP is Schrodinger's Trade Agreement, we can't agree whether it's alive or dead. That's how clueless everyone is about Donald. Even his own supporters are not saying, "Well, I'm sure he'll enact the tariffs," they're more like "He better not, or I'm not voting for him next time." It's like his own supporters won't even know what he'll do.
And I'm not looking for reasons that "Trump is not so bad". And I'm not overly eager to punish the Democrats, since it was the Republicans that supported Donald and it was Donald that decided to run. So, where is his punishment?
posted by FJT at 12:06 PM on November 13, 2016
TPP is Schrodinger's Trade Agreement, we can't agree whether it's alive or dead. That's how clueless everyone is about Donald. Even his own supporters are not saying, "Well, I'm sure he'll enact the tariffs," they're more like "He better not, or I'm not voting for him next time." It's like his own supporters won't even know what he'll do.
And I'm not looking for reasons that "Trump is not so bad". And I'm not overly eager to punish the Democrats, since it was the Republicans that supported Donald and it was Donald that decided to run. So, where is his punishment?
posted by FJT at 12:06 PM on November 13, 2016
Hillary talked openly about systemic issues of racism and sexism that are present in our society and White America got scared. That's because even deeper than racism we have implicit anti-black sentiment.
Working class white voters are open to progressive ideals as long as the fundamental social order of white supremacy over minorities is maintained. But threaten the bedrock assumption that whites are superior to or more valuable than minorities and be prepared for white fragility and pushback.
White women without degrees might be low in the social order but they are higher than others. Threaten to disrupt that system and the white people that depend on being able to look down on other demographics get really angry. They get especially angry when you call them out on their racism and misogyny.
I understand that people get defensive when you make them feel bad about themselves but continuing to treat the WWC as if they aren't responsible for their own actions is bullshit. Instead of molly coddling them it's time for tough love.
Quit pretending like their way of life isn't heading for extinction. Quit pretending like the factory is coming back. Let them know that failure to address climate change will mean the family farm will go under. Let them know that automation is on the verge of eliminating whole sectors of the economy like trucking. Quit treating them like children.
When Republicans pull out the lies call them out over and over. The WWC needs to realize that there is no returning to the past only shaping the future.
posted by vuron at 12:14 PM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
Working class white voters are open to progressive ideals as long as the fundamental social order of white supremacy over minorities is maintained. But threaten the bedrock assumption that whites are superior to or more valuable than minorities and be prepared for white fragility and pushback.
White women without degrees might be low in the social order but they are higher than others. Threaten to disrupt that system and the white people that depend on being able to look down on other demographics get really angry. They get especially angry when you call them out on their racism and misogyny.
I understand that people get defensive when you make them feel bad about themselves but continuing to treat the WWC as if they aren't responsible for their own actions is bullshit. Instead of molly coddling them it's time for tough love.
Quit pretending like their way of life isn't heading for extinction. Quit pretending like the factory is coming back. Let them know that failure to address climate change will mean the family farm will go under. Let them know that automation is on the verge of eliminating whole sectors of the economy like trucking. Quit treating them like children.
When Republicans pull out the lies call them out over and over. The WWC needs to realize that there is no returning to the past only shaping the future.
posted by vuron at 12:14 PM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
One of my good friends is liberal and Catholic. This morning her priest decided to go on a long political rant, so my friend got up and walked out of the middle of mass with her children, and is now looking for a new church. I wonder how many other people had similar experiences this morning.
posted by gatorae at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
White House Reviewing Democratic Coalition Report On Trump’s Russian Ties That FBI Ignored
posted by homunculus at 12:36 PM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 12:36 PM on November 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
Putin spokesman: Trump should urge NATO to withdraw forces from Russian border
I'm embarrassed that, in Britain, Jeremy Corbyn's pushing the same line. Perhaps he hopes that, once there are no NATO tanks in the Baltics, Russia will chill out and we can all have peace in our time. Or perhaps that, if Russia does decide to take back the Baltics, we should just ask them nicely to guarantee the inhabitants' human rights?
Corbyn's a good constituency MP, but he seems tragically out of his depth in geopolitics.
posted by acb at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm embarrassed that, in Britain, Jeremy Corbyn's pushing the same line. Perhaps he hopes that, once there are no NATO tanks in the Baltics, Russia will chill out and we can all have peace in our time. Or perhaps that, if Russia does decide to take back the Baltics, we should just ask them nicely to guarantee the inhabitants' human rights?
Corbyn's a good constituency MP, but he seems tragically out of his depth in geopolitics.
posted by acb at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I’m a Coastal Elite From the Midwest: The Real Bubble is Rural America
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:17 PM on November 12
Yeah, about that....
From the article:
It's folks in the midwest and the south who are on the inside of the bubble, and too afraid to step out of it, and that is very much driven by racism, and that racism is very much driven by ignorance.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:17 PM on November 12
Yeah, about that....
From the article:
I’m from the rural Midwest. I now live in Washington, D.C. All of this talk about coastal elites needing to understand more of America has it backward.I'm from rural Texas. I now live in California. I can attest to every word in the "The Real Bubble is Rural America" article. (Bonus irony points: I went to high school with Chris Kyle, the actual fucking American Sniper.)
My home county in Ohio is 97 percent white. It, like a lot of other very unrepresentative counties, went heavily for Donald Trump. My high school had about 950 students. Two were Asian. One was Hispanic. Zero were Muslim. All the teachers were white. My high school had more convicted sexual predator teachers than minority teachers. That’s a rural American story.
In many of these areas, the only Muslims you see are in movies like “American Sniper.”
It's folks in the midwest and the south who are on the inside of the bubble, and too afraid to step out of it, and that is very much driven by racism, and that racism is very much driven by ignorance.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
I've spent most of my time since Tuesday just emeshed in arguing on facebook. This is how my grief has taken shape. What's shocked me is the misinformation people have, on both sides, and how committed they are to that misinformation. And how the information people see is so segmented, that if you believe x, you will only get information supporting that view.
I have a strong feeling we're going to look back at this election and see just how much misinformation and segmented streams of info have influenced people. I've been concerned over the filter bubble in the weeks leading up to the election. And sure enough, the filter bubble and it's role in the election is starting to get attention. I feel kind of prophetic and vindicated, but also emensely sad and remorseful that I didn't do anything with that prediction. But it's more than that, it's the weird way facebook is playing a role not just in reenforcing views, but keeping viewpoints seperated from one another.
Then I stumbled upon the issue of fake news. I had sort of wondered where some of the most outlandish theories had come from. I had no idea that many were made up wholesale. And not because there was some partisan end, but because they were great click bait for ad revenue.
I was vaguely aware in the back of my head about some of this. But I'm shocked at how rampant it is. I'm only slightly heartened by there being less fake news in the left groups. 20% is still a lot.
Right now, this mostly seems accidental and haphazard. But I'm certain by 2018 it's going to Ben understood and harness. 2020 is going to be fucked.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:57 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have a strong feeling we're going to look back at this election and see just how much misinformation and segmented streams of info have influenced people. I've been concerned over the filter bubble in the weeks leading up to the election. And sure enough, the filter bubble and it's role in the election is starting to get attention. I feel kind of prophetic and vindicated, but also emensely sad and remorseful that I didn't do anything with that prediction. But it's more than that, it's the weird way facebook is playing a role not just in reenforcing views, but keeping viewpoints seperated from one another.
Then I stumbled upon the issue of fake news. I had sort of wondered where some of the most outlandish theories had come from. I had no idea that many were made up wholesale. And not because there was some partisan end, but because they were great click bait for ad revenue.
I was vaguely aware in the back of my head about some of this. But I'm shocked at how rampant it is. I'm only slightly heartened by there being less fake news in the left groups. 20% is still a lot.
Right now, this mostly seems accidental and haphazard. But I'm certain by 2018 it's going to Ben understood and harness. 2020 is going to be fucked.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:57 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
And the other part of this is that there seems to be a widespread belief that everyone else's information comes from biased sources, and theirs is the one true information stream. It's madness!
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you voted for Trump you voted for an outspoken racist who has literally threatened to deport people.
Of course, Obama has deported more people than any other president in American history. But that's OK, because he's a cool, laid-back, Democratic president, who you'd like to have one of his home-brewed beers with. When Trump deports people, it won't be OK, because he's an uncool, loudmouthed, bombastic, Republican billionaire with a bad fake tan and a weird comb-over.
posted by John Cohen at 1:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Of course, Obama has deported more people than any other president in American history. But that's OK, because he's a cool, laid-back, Democratic president, who you'd like to have one of his home-brewed beers with. When Trump deports people, it won't be OK, because he's an uncool, loudmouthed, bombastic, Republican billionaire with a bad fake tan and a weird comb-over.
posted by John Cohen at 1:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Pence is so happy! He knows he just got to be President one way or another.
There were tabloid headlines here a few days ago about Trump having gotten a record number of assassination threats. Which makes me wonder: what if that's Pence's Reichstag fire plot? Have the orange patsy shot, make it look like a “Black Lives Matter radical” or “renewable energy extremist” or something and then declare martial law. Once it's lifted, it's no longer America, but the Republic of Gilead.
posted by acb at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
There were tabloid headlines here a few days ago about Trump having gotten a record number of assassination threats. Which makes me wonder: what if that's Pence's Reichstag fire plot? Have the orange patsy shot, make it look like a “Black Lives Matter radical” or “renewable energy extremist” or something and then declare martial law. Once it's lifted, it's no longer America, but the Republic of Gilead.
posted by acb at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, one of the more definite takeaways at this early point in the post-mortem is that the lack of critical media analysis skills is an urgent political problem. We're far removed now from the world of the broadsheet daily in the morning and Cronkite at night, or even from the Big Three + CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. It's kaleidoscopes all the way down. We need to be doing education, basic stuff: don't just share a picture and inflammatory headline, click through and look at the article. What's the dateline? What's the website? Is it real? Does the article's content match the headline? etc.
People don't have to go literary theory on every article they see; but part of being a responsible citizen is not spreading lies and bullshit. It's much more a problem on the right but the far left isn't blameless either.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:07 PM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
People don't have to go literary theory on every article they see; but part of being a responsible citizen is not spreading lies and bullshit. It's much more a problem on the right but the far left isn't blameless either.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:07 PM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
“Do you trust your President? Do you trust your government? Are either important?”
Look, if my heart surgeon isn’t the kind of guy I want to have a beer with, like some kind of egghead who always reads books and knits or something to keep his fingers nimble I don’t want him involved.
I’d rather go with the haert “surgeon” who will buy me a cold one and doesn’t use big words.
I mean, c’mon.
“I my fantasy when Obama and Trump met they had a moment alone…”
Every old president does this for the incoming guy.
Obama: Hi Don, sit down.
Trump *puffs up with bluster*: What’s this all…?
Obama (calmly): Hold up a sec. Just sit down.
Obama *ques old reel to reel film projector*
*Film rolls*
Shot: EXTERIOR. INVISIBLE SAUCER SHAPED TIME MACHINE DEPLOYING MIND-CONTROL STREET SWEEPING LASERS. DATE INDETERMINATE.
Placard: "TUESDAYS"
Shot: EXTERIOR. DALLAS. NOV.22, 1963. VIEW FROM GRASSY KNOLL WITH CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON KENNEDY’S HEAD.
Shot: INTERIOR from EXTERIOR. WHITE HOUSE. EXACT CURRENT TIME. VIEW FROM OVERHEAD. WHITE HOUSE WALLS RENDERED TRANSPARENT. CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON TRUMP’S HEAD.
Trump: *looks up*
Shot: INTERIOR from EXTERIOR. WHITE HOUSE. EXACT CURRENT TIME. VIEW FROM OVERHEAD. WHITE HOUSE WALLS RENDERED TRANSPARENT. CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON TRUMP’S HEAD. TRUMP LOOKING UP.
Placard: "FOOTAGE FOR INCOMING U.S. PRESIDENT’S EYES ONLY. BROUGHT TO YOU BY SCP FOUNDATION."
*Film stops*
Obama (brightly): Questions? Comments?
posted by Smedleyman at 1:09 PM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
Look, if my heart surgeon isn’t the kind of guy I want to have a beer with, like some kind of egghead who always reads books and knits or something to keep his fingers nimble I don’t want him involved.
I’d rather go with the haert “surgeon” who will buy me a cold one and doesn’t use big words.
I mean, c’mon.
“I my fantasy when Obama and Trump met they had a moment alone…”
Every old president does this for the incoming guy.
Obama: Hi Don, sit down.
Trump *puffs up with bluster*: What’s this all…?
Obama (calmly): Hold up a sec. Just sit down.
Obama *ques old reel to reel film projector*
*Film rolls*
Shot: EXTERIOR. INVISIBLE SAUCER SHAPED TIME MACHINE DEPLOYING MIND-CONTROL STREET SWEEPING LASERS. DATE INDETERMINATE.
Placard: "TUESDAYS"
Shot: EXTERIOR. DALLAS. NOV.22, 1963. VIEW FROM GRASSY KNOLL WITH CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON KENNEDY’S HEAD.
Shot: INTERIOR from EXTERIOR. WHITE HOUSE. EXACT CURRENT TIME. VIEW FROM OVERHEAD. WHITE HOUSE WALLS RENDERED TRANSPARENT. CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON TRUMP’S HEAD.
Trump: *looks up*
Shot: INTERIOR from EXTERIOR. WHITE HOUSE. EXACT CURRENT TIME. VIEW FROM OVERHEAD. WHITE HOUSE WALLS RENDERED TRANSPARENT. CROSSHAIRS TRAINED ON TRUMP’S HEAD. TRUMP LOOKING UP.
Placard: "FOOTAGE FOR INCOMING U.S. PRESIDENT’S EYES ONLY. BROUGHT TO YOU BY SCP FOUNDATION."
*Film stops*
Obama (brightly): Questions? Comments?
posted by Smedleyman at 1:09 PM on November 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
11. Paul Ryan has said nothing about the recent cruelties being inflicted on the various groups Trump has demonized since the election.
This morning, when confronted about the wave of hate intimidation and harrassment in the wake of the election, Paul Ryan responded that "it's not Republicans" doing it and that the millions of terrified people in targeted groups should just "put their minds at ease" because the US is "a pluralistic, inclusive" nation.
Thanks, Paul, I'm sure that'll make everything all better, you fucking weasel.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:44 PM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
This morning, when confronted about the wave of hate intimidation and harrassment in the wake of the election, Paul Ryan responded that "it's not Republicans" doing it and that the millions of terrified people in targeted groups should just "put their minds at ease" because the US is "a pluralistic, inclusive" nation.
Thanks, Paul, I'm sure that'll make everything all better, you fucking weasel.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:44 PM on November 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
Ah yes, the no true Scotsman defense. Don't you feel much safer? Thanks for nothing Ryan, you pile of dogshit.
posted by gatorae at 1:53 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 1:53 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
My coworkers are not racist. They are basically apathetic about racial issues because it does not directly effect them.
So basically your co-workers feel that black lives don't really matter to them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:20 PM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
So basically your co-workers feel that black lives don't really matter to them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:20 PM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
New Thread link for any stragglers unaware
posted by birdheist at 3:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by birdheist at 3:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Paul Ryan responded that "it's not Republicans" doing it and that the millions of terrified people in targeted groups should just "put their minds at ease" because the US is "a pluralistic, inclusive" nation.
And Jake Tapper just left it at that and let him get away with it instead of saying, "And yet look at all these photos and videos showing that the perpetrators are invoking your candidate's name and slogans chanted at his rallies. What do you make of that?"
I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence!
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:04 PM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
And Jake Tapper just left it at that and let him get away with it instead of saying, "And yet look at all these photos and videos showing that the perpetrators are invoking your candidate's name and slogans chanted at his rallies. What do you make of that?"
I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence!
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:04 PM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
tivalasvegas: Yes, one of the more definite takeaways at this early point in the post-mortem is that the lack of critical media analysis skills is an urgent political problem.
I'm actually working on a grant proposal with a colleague to develop a sort of gamified tool, to help us teach students--and everyone else, since the plan is to make it publicly available--what to look for and how to evaluate news, with real-time feedback. It's a small thing, but it's something I can do to push back a tiny bit against this tidal wave of crap.
posted by Superplin at 3:11 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm actually working on a grant proposal with a colleague to develop a sort of gamified tool, to help us teach students--and everyone else, since the plan is to make it publicly available--what to look for and how to evaluate news, with real-time feedback. It's a small thing, but it's something I can do to push back a tiny bit against this tidal wave of crap.
posted by Superplin at 3:11 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Am I supposed to be giving him more chances? I just wonder, the people I've read (not here) or watched saying, "Give him a chance" how is "chance" defined?
Lie down and let him do whatever he wants, because that's gonna happen anyway. Or cross your fingers and hope he doesn't make the worst possible choices?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:43 PM on November 13, 2016
Lie down and let him do whatever he wants, because that's gonna happen anyway. Or cross your fingers and hope he doesn't make the worst possible choices?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:43 PM on November 13, 2016
lob a small nuke at Raqqa
I would not bet against this happening, to an overwhelming domestic reaction of "welp, we needed to do something".
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:10 AM on November 14, 2016
I would not bet against this happening, to an overwhelming domestic reaction of "welp, we needed to do something".
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:10 AM on November 14, 2016
The Democrats get punished for their Pied Piper strategy of promoting Trump during the Republican primary. It's great if the Democrats never try that again!
It's great that your kid got hit by a car! Maybe she'll learn to be more careful crossing the street!
I think the great fear here is that the DNC brain-trust has been so shortsighted that they won't learn from this (even this, surely this), and will do it exactly the same way again. They have not exactly seemed open to new ways of doing anything for a long, long time.
Ellison is interesting, but... we'll see. They're so good at snatching defeat from the jaws of easy victory, after all.
posted by rokusan at 3:27 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's great that your kid got hit by a car! Maybe she'll learn to be more careful crossing the street!
I think the great fear here is that the DNC brain-trust has been so shortsighted that they won't learn from this (even this, surely this), and will do it exactly the same way again. They have not exactly seemed open to new ways of doing anything for a long, long time.
Ellison is interesting, but... we'll see. They're so good at snatching defeat from the jaws of easy victory, after all.
posted by rokusan at 3:27 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Blame Trump’s Victory on College-Educated Whites, Not the Working Class
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:30 PM on November 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
The voters Clinton really lost—the ones she was targeting and relying on for victory—were college-educated whites. Most polling suggested she would win these voters, but she didn’t, according to exit polls: White men went 63 percent for Trump versus 31 percent for Clinton, and white women went 53-43 percent. Among college-educated whites, only 39 percent of men and 51 percent of women voted for Clinton.I was also really shocked that exit polls showed Hillary only got 54% of millennial votes.
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:30 PM on November 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Over on MetaTalk there's a What are YOU doing? thread for members to discuss what actions they are taking and to invite other members to join them when appropriate
posted by Wordshore at 1:39 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Wordshore at 1:39 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing I hear alot is how what Putin really wants is to have another Yalta conference where he, Trump, and Xi Jinping decide how to divide up the world between themselves.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:35 AM on November 18, 2016
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:35 AM on November 18, 2016
"Give Donald Trump the benefit of the doubt." Trump appoints Azog the Defiler to a cabinet post. "To be fair, he hasn't defiled anyone recently. The name may be merely ceremonial."
posted by drezdn at 7:07 AM on November 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:07 AM on November 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
Anyone know of a good analysis of the impact of voter suppression laws and tactics in this election. A flurry of ID laws were passed this last year, and the usual voter caging and list purging went on apace, as well as underresourcing heavily Democratic precincts in GOP-held states. I haven't been able to locate any credible analyses on my own.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:03 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:03 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing I hear alot is how what Putin really wants is to have another Yalta conference where he, Trump, and Xi Jinping decide how to divide up the world between themselves.
However while he's on his way from the hotel to the conference, Trump is distracted by baubles and showgirls that Putin has sent. When he finally gets there he discovers that it's all done and dusted, the world has been divided up and all he has left is parts of Las Vegas. He's perfectly happy with that.
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
However while he's on his way from the hotel to the conference, Trump is distracted by baubles and showgirls that Putin has sent. When he finally gets there he discovers that it's all done and dusted, the world has been divided up and all he has left is parts of Las Vegas. He's perfectly happy with that.
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
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Republicans know their policies of transferring even more wealth and power to corporations and the wealthy are not popular, otherwise they wouldn't have to lie about them so much. Of course Republicans will try to blame their failures on the Democrats who always have to step in and fix their messages, but Democrats must present a united message that this time, no one's buying it.
posted by Gelatin at 2:42 AM on November 10, 2016 [101 favorites]