O.T.D.
May 3, 2017 10:31 PM Subscribe
NY Times: The High Price of Leaving Ultra-Orthodox Life - "Young adults who decide to abandon their cloistered Jewish communities have only one another — and a single organization — to help them navigate the alternate reality of modern-day New York." - Taffy Brodesser-Akner
from 2015: How Ex-Frum Memoirs Became New York's Hottest Publishing Trend
from 2015: How Ex-Frum Memoirs Became New York's Hottest Publishing Trend
“I guess I just don’t know if I’m a good person because I’m a good person,” said the guy who wanted to cheat but might not, “or if I’m a good person because I was taught to be a good person.”
Deceptively deep. Thanks for posting.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:55 PM on May 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Deceptively deep. Thanks for posting.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:55 PM on May 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
This was surprisingly sensitive, thanks.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:50 AM on May 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:50 AM on May 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ultra-Orthodox men visited her at all hours, and they cheated on their wives, having sex with this ritually pure young woman in her apartment. When the men finished, they told her what a shame it was that she was off the derech, that she seemed nice, that she should try again at a religious life.Double WTF. First that there is a prostitution market in being ritually pure (though rule 34 implies that shouldn't be shocking) and second that having committed adultery the johns would lecture the girl on returning to the faith. Mind completely blown on the size of the cognitive dissonance bubble on the last. Seriously; I sat here for a couple of minutes just trying to get my head around it.
about half the people I met in Footsteps first heard of it when they were accused by someone in their family of being a member.Information wants to be free.
posted by Mitheral at 4:17 AM on May 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
Several years ago there was a thread on the somethingawful forums by a woman who had done this. I think she left in her late teens. I remember her talking about the first time she ever had a hamburger, and having to learn elementary math, and about a time before she left when her dad came home and told the family that something-or-other was now considered non-kosher and her mom had to throw out an entire day's worth of holiday cooking while crying. And how years later she was turned away from her dad's funeral when she tried to come back for it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:10 AM on May 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:10 AM on May 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yep. The screw is constantly tightening. In my parents generation it was fine to use matzoh "flour" during Passover because it couldn't be leavened, and then suddenly this was prohibited among the Hasidim because someone decided it violated the Halachic prohibition on allowing a grain product and water to sit mixed for more than 11 minutes. Or the panic that resulted when someone found out that there are microscopic crustaceans in just about all fresh water everywhere. More new rules all the time, none ever relaxed, only tightened.
I have a lot of sympathy for these young people. And none whatsoever for their community leaders. You perpetuate culture with your own good ideas, not by keeping people in the dark. That people would abandon their own children says nothing about their kids but a lot about the parents.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:46 AM on May 4, 2017 [23 favorites]
I have a lot of sympathy for these young people. And none whatsoever for their community leaders. You perpetuate culture with your own good ideas, not by keeping people in the dark. That people would abandon their own children says nothing about their kids but a lot about the parents.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:46 AM on May 4, 2017 [23 favorites]
Of all the things that infuriates me, as an atheist, about New Atheism, is that there is zero interest in providing support for people who are leaving communities of faith, especially communities like the Hasidim. New Atheism has no fucking clue about just how deep the role of religion in the lives of many people really is, and what exactly they give up when they lose faith. There shouldn't just be one organization dedicated to helping people who leave the Hasidim.
posted by SansPoint at 6:55 AM on May 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 6:55 AM on May 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
Ugh. I've read some narratives by ex-Hasids. The fact that these communities exist kind of gives me the willies. I'm very conflicted about it. On the one hand, I've inherited the standard Jewish paranoia about Jews being portrayed as backward, cruel, abusive, misogynist, etc... That stuff was grist for the mill for the Nazi regime.
But how can I turn a blind eye to the way these communities coerce and threaten anyone who doesn't conform? I'm a Jewish American. My Jewish identity is secular, and leftist, and deeply suspicious of authority. How can I be outraged about the treatment of women in fundamentalist Muslim or Christian societies, or shudder at the scenarios of "The Handmaid's Tale," or speak out against homophobia—how can I do these things and leave the Hasidic communities uncriticized?
We secular Jews occasionally talk privately among ourselves in dismissive language about the ultra-Orthodox; or we shake our heads at friends who have gone ba'al tshuva with Chabad. But we don't want to air our dirty laundry with the non-Jewish world because we don't like to call attention to our otherness. We don't feel we have the right to interfere with these enclaves, even though we know full well that women, atheists, queer people, and other vulnerable people are being abused, molested, imprisoned, lied to, threatened, and manipulated.
I'm glad groups like Footsteps exist.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2017 [49 favorites]
But how can I turn a blind eye to the way these communities coerce and threaten anyone who doesn't conform? I'm a Jewish American. My Jewish identity is secular, and leftist, and deeply suspicious of authority. How can I be outraged about the treatment of women in fundamentalist Muslim or Christian societies, or shudder at the scenarios of "The Handmaid's Tale," or speak out against homophobia—how can I do these things and leave the Hasidic communities uncriticized?
We secular Jews occasionally talk privately among ourselves in dismissive language about the ultra-Orthodox; or we shake our heads at friends who have gone ba'al tshuva with Chabad. But we don't want to air our dirty laundry with the non-Jewish world because we don't like to call attention to our otherness. We don't feel we have the right to interfere with these enclaves, even though we know full well that women, atheists, queer people, and other vulnerable people are being abused, molested, imprisoned, lied to, threatened, and manipulated.
I'm glad groups like Footsteps exist.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2017 [49 favorites]
I grew up Jewish in the Northeast. I always feel conflicted about Hasidic communities in the area. Some interesting links for those wanting more information:
There's a NatGeo video on Youtube for those interested in which Faigy Mayer was interviewed. It provides a window into these communities.
It's also worth reading about Lakewood NJ, a community that is heavily becoming Hasidic. There are accusations of public school defunding in favor of private schools.
posted by teabag at 6:59 AM on May 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
There's a NatGeo video on Youtube for those interested in which Faigy Mayer was interviewed. It provides a window into these communities.
It's also worth reading about Lakewood NJ, a community that is heavily becoming Hasidic. There are accusations of public school defunding in favor of private schools.
posted by teabag at 6:59 AM on May 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I went to school in Lakewood, NJ (Georgian Court University) and lived there for several years after I was married. My in-laws owned a house in a development there as well.
It started with a big Hasidic rabbinical school opening in town. The community put up flyers in the NY Hasidic communities asking for families to move to Lakewood and build a community there, expand the faithful.
Then came the big move.
The problem is that a lot of the families move into the houses, declare it a religious school with a handful of students, and then despite a family living in it daily there's virtually no property taxes paid on it. This started out as a few houses. Then entire neighborhoods filled with schools catering to eight to ten students. Hotels and motels were taken over, declared religious schools and taxes dried up. So there was less money for the town to draw on for infrastructure, public services, etc. Those on councils and local government seats tried to hold the line as much as possible and the Hasidic community took offense. They overwhelmed all the votes and took over any power seat. Suddenly public school money was being used on busing for religious schools, etc. Non-Hasidic families began selling their homes and moving out in droves.
Lakewood, NJ is a lesson in what happens when the wall between church and state completely crumbles. The streets are pock marked with pot holes that have been there for years. Houses and buildings aren't maintained and just fall apart. There's no public monies for low-income non-religious families so you have a very high population of homelessness. For the longest time there was a big community living in the woods called Tent City.
And as a result of watching this, there's been a ground swell of anti-Semitism in the towns around Lakewood borne of the frustration of people outside the community.
The Hasidic community in Lakewood is healthy and thriving though.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:18 AM on May 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
It started with a big Hasidic rabbinical school opening in town. The community put up flyers in the NY Hasidic communities asking for families to move to Lakewood and build a community there, expand the faithful.
Then came the big move.
The problem is that a lot of the families move into the houses, declare it a religious school with a handful of students, and then despite a family living in it daily there's virtually no property taxes paid on it. This started out as a few houses. Then entire neighborhoods filled with schools catering to eight to ten students. Hotels and motels were taken over, declared religious schools and taxes dried up. So there was less money for the town to draw on for infrastructure, public services, etc. Those on councils and local government seats tried to hold the line as much as possible and the Hasidic community took offense. They overwhelmed all the votes and took over any power seat. Suddenly public school money was being used on busing for religious schools, etc. Non-Hasidic families began selling their homes and moving out in droves.
Lakewood, NJ is a lesson in what happens when the wall between church and state completely crumbles. The streets are pock marked with pot holes that have been there for years. Houses and buildings aren't maintained and just fall apart. There's no public monies for low-income non-religious families so you have a very high population of homelessness. For the longest time there was a big community living in the woods called Tent City.
And as a result of watching this, there's been a ground swell of anti-Semitism in the towns around Lakewood borne of the frustration of people outside the community.
The Hasidic community in Lakewood is healthy and thriving though.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:18 AM on May 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
Just a semantic note: Hasidism is one sect among many; "Hasidic" is not a synonym for ultra-Orthodox. (It's like calling all Europeans "Italian.") Most of the Lakewood community is not actually Hasidic. "Haredi" is probably the most useful neutral term -- people in these communities usually don't love "ultra-Orthodox."
posted by neroli at 8:33 AM on May 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by neroli at 8:33 AM on May 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
My apologies I was unaware. Thank you for letting me know. The community in Lakewood is Haredi, or ultra-Orthodox.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:35 AM on May 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:35 AM on May 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
neroli: I apologize too. I live in New York City, have been friends with and worked with Jewish folks of various groups, including Orthodox, and really should know better. In fact, I did, but was just lazy in my commenting.
posted by SansPoint at 9:14 AM on May 4, 2017
posted by SansPoint at 9:14 AM on May 4, 2017
I'm from Jackson NJ, which is adjacent to Lakewood and the amount of anti-orthodox sentiment is stunning. You'd hear it even from reform Jewish people.
posted by Ferreous at 11:33 AM on May 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Ferreous at 11:33 AM on May 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Of all the things that infuriates me, as an atheist, about New Atheism, is that there is zero interest in providing support for people who are leaving communities of faith, especially communities like the Hasidim. New Atheism has no fucking clue about just how deep the role of religion in the lives of many people really is, and what exactly they give up when they lose faith. There shouldn't just be one organization dedicated to helping people who leave the Hasidim.
I wouldn't be surprised if privilege is one of the big factors here: most New Atheists are white men from comfortable backgrounds, and leaving the faiths of family and friends doesn't cost them much in real terms: Mom and Dad might be upset, but they won't disown their adult child, and even if the adult child is disowned, he has education, skills and a work history to fall back on. Not at all like the adult children leaving fundamentalist religion of whatever stripe who don't have anything in the way of skills or social capital to sustain them.
Obviously, #notallatheists, just a particular type of Atheist Bro. There are people like Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism who write about leaving fundamentalist religion from a much less privileged (and smug) viewpoint.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:32 PM on May 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I live in New York City, and occasionally I come across young ultra-Orthodox men on Tinder...and most of the time their profile bios are just along the lines of, "Hi, I'm NOT here to meet anyone in person. I just want to have a nice conversation with someone outside of my community, and learn about different people and cultures."
posted by adso at 12:15 AM on May 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by adso at 12:15 AM on May 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
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