Let White People Appropriate Mexican Food—Mexicans Do It to Ourselves
May 30, 2017 5:11 PM Subscribe
My thoughts on cultural appropriation of food changed forever in the research for my 2012 book, Taco USA: How Mexican Food Conquered America. One of my personal highlights was discovering the restaurant that Glenn Bell of Taco Bell infamy had cited in his autobiography as being the source of "inspiration" for him deciding to get into the taco business. How did he get inspired? He'd eat tacos the restaurant every night, then go across the street to his hot dog stand to try and recreate them.
(Following from two white, Anglo-American women from Oregon who visited Mexico, came back home, and opened up a taco truck for a few weeks and started a stir.)
(Following from two white, Anglo-American women from Oregon who visited Mexico, came back home, and opened up a taco truck for a few weeks and started a stir.)
This post was deleted for the following reason: I really hoped this could go civilly, but it's not, and I can't see how to get it there. -- restless_nomad
To suggest—as SJWs always do—that Mexicans and other minority entrepreneurs can't possibly engage in cultural appropriation because they're people of color, and that we're always the victims, is ignorant and patronizing and robs us of agency.
Perhaps it's just the circles I move in, but whenever I see suggestions like "Mexicans and other minority entrepreneurs can't possibly engage in cultural appropriation because they're people of color, and that we're always the victims", those suggestions are always being distilled from unspecified sources by writers who use the term "SJW" as a non-ironic pejorative.
On the no smoke without fire principle I guess there must somewhere exist the occasional genuine example of precious, carping, holier-than-thou Left criticism that goes way further than it should. Most of this kind of writing, though, seems to me to be devoted to trying to undermine the entire usefulness of concepts like cultural appropriation via the construction of huge straw armies.
I'm not quite sure what it is about the 21st century that makes "don't be a dick" such a difficult guideline to follow. I guess I'll just continue to blame Twitter and Facebook unless more likely suspects emerge.
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on May 30, 2017 [32 favorites]
Perhaps it's just the circles I move in, but whenever I see suggestions like "Mexicans and other minority entrepreneurs can't possibly engage in cultural appropriation because they're people of color, and that we're always the victims", those suggestions are always being distilled from unspecified sources by writers who use the term "SJW" as a non-ironic pejorative.
On the no smoke without fire principle I guess there must somewhere exist the occasional genuine example of precious, carping, holier-than-thou Left criticism that goes way further than it should. Most of this kind of writing, though, seems to me to be devoted to trying to undermine the entire usefulness of concepts like cultural appropriation via the construction of huge straw armies.
I'm not quite sure what it is about the 21st century that makes "don't be a dick" such a difficult guideline to follow. I guess I'll just continue to blame Twitter and Facebook unless more likely suspects emerge.
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 PM on May 30, 2017 [32 favorites]
I live in Portland, and I suspect the moronically twee young woman who started all this was trying to make a name for herself. She did, but not in the way I think she was aiming for.....
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 6:18 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 6:18 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Nobody goes to Taco Bell for authenticity. It's cheap post bar eats, that's all.
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
From what I've read in conversation about this, and other aspects of cultural appropriation, it isn't so much that one is making the cuisine of another culture, it's also that one is using one's advantages that being a white, middle class person confers, to then enter into a market situation and represent that other culture's cuisine in that market. I can appreciate the argument of the FPP, but I think it undermines its point in the example that it presents.
The point shouldn't be: "this local restaurant is doing pretty well after having their techniques stolen to create Taco Bell," it should be, "why did is it that our culture has allowed a white man to reap the millions of dollars of profit from those techniques, while the inspiration (who is of a different ethnic origin) reaps the thousands of dollars of profit?"
Similarly, I agree with flabdablet: the "outraged SJW" is a stereotype that's used to paper over real problems. It's insulting to suggest that people who call out cultural appropriation are all these straw white SJWs - I've seen plenty of people from the cultures which are being appropriated doing the calling out.
posted by codacorolla at 6:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
The point shouldn't be: "this local restaurant is doing pretty well after having their techniques stolen to create Taco Bell," it should be, "why did is it that our culture has allowed a white man to reap the millions of dollars of profit from those techniques, while the inspiration (who is of a different ethnic origin) reaps the thousands of dollars of profit?"
Similarly, I agree with flabdablet: the "outraged SJW" is a stereotype that's used to paper over real problems. It's insulting to suggest that people who call out cultural appropriation are all these straw white SJWs - I've seen plenty of people from the cultures which are being appropriated doing the calling out.
posted by codacorolla at 6:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
Uh, but burritos aren't really Mexican.
posted by Omon Ra at 6:36 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 6:36 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
The OP article precisely misses what was wrong with the original interview that set people off. It was them bragging about (and claiming authenticity because) they stole the technique from tortilla makers in Puerto Nuevo, Mexico (just south of Tijuana).
posted by msalt at 6:44 PM on May 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
"I picked the brains of every tortilla lady there in the worst broken Spanish ever, and they showed me a little of what they did," Connelly says. "They told us the basic ingredients, and we saw them moving and stretching the dough similar to how pizza makers do before rolling it out with rolling pins. They wouldn't tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into the windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look. We learned quickly it isn't quite that easy."If they had showed the slightest bit of respect, or God forbid, hired someone to give them a lesson, people would be lined up around the corner.
posted by msalt at 6:44 PM on May 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm sorry but selling burritos is not cultural appropriation any more than selling any other kind of food that's associated with an ethnic region like naan or French bread. These people are chefs and that's what they do: learn from each other.
Also burritos aren't exactly a Mexican thing as noted above.
posted by fshgrl at 7:00 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Also burritos aren't exactly a Mexican thing as noted above.
posted by fshgrl at 7:00 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Next: Pizza and the Italians. Duck.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Seconding msalt. Their account of how they stole the authentic tortillas is absurd. There's no secret to tortillas. They could've just looked in a cookbook.
Also try going to a McDonald's and ask them to teach you how to make an Egg McMuffin. They're sure not going to tell you, but it's not because it's a secret. It's because they're working.
ALSO I'm not sure the cart closed because of the protest. It's described as a pop up. Maybe it just closed cuz it closed.
posted by chrchr at 7:11 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also try going to a McDonald's and ask them to teach you how to make an Egg McMuffin. They're sure not going to tell you, but it's not because it's a secret. It's because they're working.
ALSO I'm not sure the cart closed because of the protest. It's described as a pop up. Maybe it just closed cuz it closed.
posted by chrchr at 7:11 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Tacos >> Pizza
posted by leotrotsky at 7:12 PM on May 30, 2017
posted by leotrotsky at 7:12 PM on May 30, 2017
Tortillas are incredibly simple to make. I suspect what they call "wouldn't tell us much about the technique" was really more like "didn't think it required an explanation."
posted by milk white peacock at 7:14 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by milk white peacock at 7:14 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
On the no smoke without fire principle I guess there must somewhere exist the occasional genuine example of precious, carping, holier-than-thou Left criticism that goes way further than it should. Most of this kind of writing, though, seems to me to be devoted to trying to undermine the entire usefulness of concepts like cultural appropriation via the construction of huge straw armies.
I'm not quite sure what it is about the 21st century that makes "don't be a dick" such a difficult guideline to follow. I guess I'll just continue to blame Twitter and Facebook unless more likely suspects emerge.
Did Kooks close up because of some straw SJWs? It's a stereotype because it looks like fits way too often. And I'll bet there are plenty people here who will agree that they're getting their just desserts, because they didn't do enough, somehow, for those who inspired them. Or simply because they shouldn't be allowed.
I find it unhelpful when the impulse among well meaning folks is to deny that SJWs, for lack of better term (how 'bout cultural appropriation warriors?), do stupid things, or don't even exist. Someone was indeed being a dick here. It just wasn't Arellano or the women behind Kooks.
Seconding msalt. Their account of how they stole the authentic tortillas is absurd. There's no secret to tortillas. They could've just looked in a cookbook.
Also try going to a McDonald's and ask them to teach you how to make an Egg McMuffin. They're sure not going to tell you, but it's not because it's a secret. It's because they're working.
Tortillas are incredibly simple to make. I suspect what they call "wouldn't tell us much about the technique" was really more like "didn't think it required an explanation."
These arguments seem to make criticism and accusation of stealing weaker. There was nothing to steal, nothing even worth asking about. But we'll criticize them anyway because they had to gall to ask, imitate, and figure it out themselves!
posted by 2N2222 at 7:21 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm not quite sure what it is about the 21st century that makes "don't be a dick" such a difficult guideline to follow. I guess I'll just continue to blame Twitter and Facebook unless more likely suspects emerge.
Did Kooks close up because of some straw SJWs? It's a stereotype because it looks like fits way too often. And I'll bet there are plenty people here who will agree that they're getting their just desserts, because they didn't do enough, somehow, for those who inspired them. Or simply because they shouldn't be allowed.
I find it unhelpful when the impulse among well meaning folks is to deny that SJWs, for lack of better term (how 'bout cultural appropriation warriors?), do stupid things, or don't even exist. Someone was indeed being a dick here. It just wasn't Arellano or the women behind Kooks.
Seconding msalt. Their account of how they stole the authentic tortillas is absurd. There's no secret to tortillas. They could've just looked in a cookbook.
Also try going to a McDonald's and ask them to teach you how to make an Egg McMuffin. They're sure not going to tell you, but it's not because it's a secret. It's because they're working.
Tortillas are incredibly simple to make. I suspect what they call "wouldn't tell us much about the technique" was really more like "didn't think it required an explanation."
These arguments seem to make criticism and accusation of stealing weaker. There was nothing to steal, nothing even worth asking about. But we'll criticize them anyway because they had to gall to ask, imitate, and figure it out themselves!
posted by 2N2222 at 7:21 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, I don't think they stole anything, but I think they're guilty of exoticizing the "abuelas" whose windows they peered into.
posted by chrchr at 7:24 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 7:24 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Uh, but burritos aren't really Mexican.
Hmm. I searched for a few minutes, but couldn't really find a definitive "NO, they aren't Mexican at all" sort of answer. The best I could come up with is that like a lot of iconic and widespread foods the history is murky and they are and aren't Mexican at the same time.
posted by FJT at 7:25 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hmm. I searched for a few minutes, but couldn't really find a definitive "NO, they aren't Mexican at all" sort of answer. The best I could come up with is that like a lot of iconic and widespread foods the history is murky and they are and aren't Mexican at the same time.
posted by FJT at 7:25 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
The point shouldn't be: "this local restaurant is doing pretty well after having their techniques stolen to create Taco Bell," it should be, "why did is it that our culture has allowed a white man to reap the millions of dollars of profit from those techniques, while the inspiration (who is of a different ethnic origin) reaps the thousands of dollars of profit?"
Our culture "allowed" Glenn Bell to reap millions because he developed a scalable franchise model for his business. The idea that the difference in profit between a neighborhood restaurant and a fast food chain is due to race is ludicrous.
posted by Spacelegoman at 7:26 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Our culture "allowed" Glenn Bell to reap millions because he developed a scalable franchise model for his business. The idea that the difference in profit between a neighborhood restaurant and a fast food chain is due to race is ludicrous.
posted by Spacelegoman at 7:26 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Our culture "allowed" Glenn Bell to reap millions because he developed a scalable franchise model for his business. The idea that the difference in profit between a neighborhood restaurant and a fast food chain is due to race is ludicrous.
Nah.
posted by codacorolla at 7:27 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Nah.
posted by codacorolla at 7:27 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Tacos >> Pizza
Which would make the calzone an Italian burrito?
His basic point that Mexican food is already syncretic and involves complex appropriations is good. Whether or not that is enough to power his entire article is a different question.
Tortillas are incredibly simple to make.
True, but like many simple things, they are hard to make well. Flour tortillas especially tend to be pretty terrible most of the time, which makes it so exciting when you get a good one. If the food-cart burrito makers figured out how to make really good tortillas, then they deserve some success. Unless they were marketing their food as ultra pure, 100 percent authentic (with all the baggage of that word), I don't see a problem.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:28 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Which would make the calzone an Italian burrito?
His basic point that Mexican food is already syncretic and involves complex appropriations is good. Whether or not that is enough to power his entire article is a different question.
Tortillas are incredibly simple to make.
True, but like many simple things, they are hard to make well. Flour tortillas especially tend to be pretty terrible most of the time, which makes it so exciting when you get a good one. If the food-cart burrito makers figured out how to make really good tortillas, then they deserve some success. Unless they were marketing their food as ultra pure, 100 percent authentic (with all the baggage of that word), I don't see a problem.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:28 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
In a similar vein...
IMHO he's got the initial facts right but he's pushing it really too far.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:38 PM on May 30, 2017
IMHO he's got the initial facts right but he's pushing it really too far.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:38 PM on May 30, 2017
How is this confusing to people? It's about POWER.
No one is upset that Julia Child is the authority on French cuisine stateside because french people also have the power to come over and be successful.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
posted by raccoon409 at 7:42 PM on May 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
No one is upset that Julia Child is the authority on French cuisine stateside because french people also have the power to come over and be successful.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
posted by raccoon409 at 7:42 PM on May 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
And I make my own tortillas with maseca for what it's worth! (I live in a corn tortillas desert). Next on my list is ordering field corn and lye to make them 100% at home.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:42 PM on May 30, 2017
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:42 PM on May 30, 2017
Hmm. I searched for a few minutes, but couldn't really find a definitive "NO, they aren't Mexican at all" sort of answer.
I'm Mexican, and I've yet to eat a burrito in Mexico. I don't remember ever seeing it on a menu.
I think most Mexicans are proud that our food travels so well. If anything, what we hate is that a lot of people think that Taco Bell/Tex-Mex is somehow considered Mexican food.
posted by Omon Ra at 7:43 PM on May 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm Mexican, and I've yet to eat a burrito in Mexico. I don't remember ever seeing it on a menu.
I think most Mexicans are proud that our food travels so well. If anything, what we hate is that a lot of people think that Taco Bell/Tex-Mex is somehow considered Mexican food.
posted by Omon Ra at 7:43 PM on May 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
There are loads of Mexican chefs in Portland who have way more connection to Mexican food than having had some good burritos on a weekend trip to Baja who have never been profiled in Willamette Week. Why do these two get this exposure?
posted by chrchr at 7:48 PM on May 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 7:48 PM on May 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm having difficulty believing that anyone who writes "SJW" disparagingly and unironically once believed that cultural appropriation was real until they talked to the restaurant Taco Bell was inspired from and then their thoughts on the subject were CHANGED FOREVER.
It's bad enough that the author felt the need to use a tired strawman as a vehicle for their point; propping it up with some false Road To Damascus framing just doesn't ring true at all because of it.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:53 PM on May 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
It's bad enough that the author felt the need to use a tired strawman as a vehicle for their point; propping it up with some false Road To Damascus framing just doesn't ring true at all because of it.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:53 PM on May 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
Uh, but burritos aren't really Mexican.
I wonder if there would have been less controversy if they had sold tortas, which really are Mexican, but don't look so different from sandwiches.
posted by 445supermag at 7:55 PM on May 30, 2017
I wonder if there would have been less controversy if they had sold tortas, which really are Mexican, but don't look so different from sandwiches.
posted by 445supermag at 7:55 PM on May 30, 2017
I'm Mexican, and I've yet to eat a burrito in Mexico. I don't remember ever seeing it on a menu.
I've eaten plenty in northern Mexico, so they do exist, at least in some places; the ones I've had were smaller and more streamlined, not the enormous California-style burritos that people in the US tend to think of, though.
The saddest burritos I've ever eaten were from a hippyish pseudo-Mexican place on the east coast. Those were some world-class insipid and culturally-appropriative burritos; there is no excuse for food like that.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:57 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've eaten plenty in northern Mexico, so they do exist, at least in some places; the ones I've had were smaller and more streamlined, not the enormous California-style burritos that people in the US tend to think of, though.
The saddest burritos I've ever eaten were from a hippyish pseudo-Mexican place on the east coast. Those were some world-class insipid and culturally-appropriative burritos; there is no excuse for food like that.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:57 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Burritos are Mexican food, but not the burritos you probably imagine them to be:
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 8:01 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 8:01 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Worth noting: focusing on the original story that provoked the post in the FPP, this isn't about burritos as a specific food, but rather about a series of techniques that produce a certain type of tortilla. Techniques that, in an interview with an influential culture magazine for the area, the owners of the shop essentially bragged at having stolen.
posted by codacorolla at 8:04 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:04 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm Mexican, and I've yet to eat a burrito in Mexico. I don't remember ever seeing it on a menu.
I've seen burritos on the menus of a few places in CDMX, but no more than you'd probably see any other random American/northern Mexican food. I'm pretty sure La Bipo in Coyoacán has burritos though I doubt they're very "authentic" there, whatever that could mean in this context.
It's interesting that what has made the transition into Central Mexican taqueria menus a lot more successfully are norteño/Mexican-American style quesadillas (ie, made between two flat flour tortillas), and I love that down there they're called "gringas".
posted by strangely stunted trees at 8:05 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've seen burritos on the menus of a few places in CDMX, but no more than you'd probably see any other random American/northern Mexican food. I'm pretty sure La Bipo in Coyoacán has burritos though I doubt they're very "authentic" there, whatever that could mean in this context.
It's interesting that what has made the transition into Central Mexican taqueria menus a lot more successfully are norteño/Mexican-American style quesadillas (ie, made between two flat flour tortillas), and I love that down there they're called "gringas".
posted by strangely stunted trees at 8:05 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
There was an article years ago, I think by one of the owners of the Burrito Bros chain in DC, about looking for the origins of the burrito. Google leads me to believe it was by Peter Fox in the Washington Post in '98 or so, but I can only find references to the article, not the article itself, so I can't be sure if it's the same one. Anyway, the article stated that flour tortillas, and thus burritos, are pretty rare in native Mexican cuisine and are basically found in the northern parts around the Texas border and the burritos made there are pretty small, which supports what Dip Flash is saying. However:
enormous California-style burritos
You probably mean Mission-style burritos. California contains burrito multitudes - the link mostly talks about a "California Burrito" endemic to San Diego, but most burritos there, while still pretty big, will contain 2 or so ingredients other than the tortilla, and they'll come wrapped in paper, not foil. And burritos here in Michigan are ridiculous things where they throw everything in the kitchen inside a tortilla.
posted by LionIndex at 8:06 PM on May 30, 2017
enormous California-style burritos
You probably mean Mission-style burritos. California contains burrito multitudes - the link mostly talks about a "California Burrito" endemic to San Diego, but most burritos there, while still pretty big, will contain 2 or so ingredients other than the tortilla, and they'll come wrapped in paper, not foil. And burritos here in Michigan are ridiculous things where they throw everything in the kitchen inside a tortilla.
posted by LionIndex at 8:06 PM on May 30, 2017
FJT: history is murky and they are and aren't Mexican at the same time.
El Schrodingers Gatto?
posted by dr_dank at 8:09 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
El Schrodingers Gatto?
posted by dr_dank at 8:09 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
but rather about a series of techniques that produce a certain type of tortilla.
So the problem here is that they are using too authentic of a technique?
The saddest burritos I've ever eaten were from a hippyish pseudo-Mexican place on the east coast. Those were some world-class insipid and culturally-appropriative burritos
and the problem with these burritos is that they aren't authentic enough?
-
So the correct burrito would occupy a hypothetical space between authentic and inauthentic?
posted by long haired child at 8:10 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
So the problem here is that they are using too authentic of a technique?
The saddest burritos I've ever eaten were from a hippyish pseudo-Mexican place on the east coast. Those were some world-class insipid and culturally-appropriative burritos
and the problem with these burritos is that they aren't authentic enough?
-
So the correct burrito would occupy a hypothetical space between authentic and inauthentic?
posted by long haired child at 8:10 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think most Mexicans are proud that our food travels so well. If anything, what we hate is that a lot of people think that Taco Bell/Tex-Mex is somehow considered Mexican food.
Even Texans don't believe Tex-Mex is Mexican cuisine. It is a synthesis of two cultures. I refer you to Robb Walsh, "The Tex-Mex Cookbook". Oh, and Taco Smell is neither...
posted by jim in austin at 8:11 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Even Texans don't believe Tex-Mex is Mexican cuisine. It is a synthesis of two cultures. I refer you to Robb Walsh, "The Tex-Mex Cookbook". Oh, and Taco Smell is neither...
posted by jim in austin at 8:11 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
I am neither Texan nor Mexican, however, my observation would be that Tex-mex is based on cattle, dairy and wheat, whereas Mexican food is mostly built around chicken, pork, and corn. They both use local agricultural staples.
posted by chrchr at 8:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 8:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Well, I don't think they stole anything, but I think they're guilty of exoticizing the "abuelas" whose windows they peered into.
I'm not clear how evil it is that the abuelas may be considered exotic. After all, tortillas are bonehead simple to make. Except when they aren't. If those abuelas do indeed possess a mysterious skill or ingredient that is not obvious, I think that would actually make them pretty exotic to people trying to copy their cuisine. There are worse things.
No one is upset that Julia Child is the authority on French cuisine stateside because french people also have the power to come over and be successful.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
This seems to add credence to Arellano's column.
I was curious if the appropriation angle would pop up in this recent thread. I can imagine some pretzel logic popping up about appropriation there. Perhaps mercifully, not much popped up in that thread at all.
There are loads of Mexican chefs in Portland who have way more connection to Mexican food than having had some good burritos on a weekend trip to Baja who have never been profiled in Willamette Week. Why do these two get this exposure?
It looks like a big reason for the exposure might be callout culture.
Before that episode, could it also be possible that their food was just good? Imagine the nerve!
posted by 2N2222 at 8:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm not clear how evil it is that the abuelas may be considered exotic. After all, tortillas are bonehead simple to make. Except when they aren't. If those abuelas do indeed possess a mysterious skill or ingredient that is not obvious, I think that would actually make them pretty exotic to people trying to copy their cuisine. There are worse things.
No one is upset that Julia Child is the authority on French cuisine stateside because french people also have the power to come over and be successful.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
This seems to add credence to Arellano's column.
I was curious if the appropriation angle would pop up in this recent thread. I can imagine some pretzel logic popping up about appropriation there. Perhaps mercifully, not much popped up in that thread at all.
There are loads of Mexican chefs in Portland who have way more connection to Mexican food than having had some good burritos on a weekend trip to Baja who have never been profiled in Willamette Week. Why do these two get this exposure?
It looks like a big reason for the exposure might be callout culture.
Before that episode, could it also be possible that their food was just good? Imagine the nerve!
posted by 2N2222 at 8:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
How is this confusing to people? It's about POWER.
If both Mexican people and anglo people successfully open and operate Mexican restaurants, and they both do, then what power are we talking about? If the issue is some traditional vector of oppression, like that the Mexican restaurantier is being denied a loan by a bank which is preventing them opening their restaurant, the blame lies on the bank not the anglo burrito seller.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
The two girls in Oregon mentioned specifically the food culture that they had been inspired by and the aspect of it that they were trying to use, what's the appropriate method of giving credit when you learn a technique that's not unique to any individual person?
posted by bracems at 8:24 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
If both Mexican people and anglo people successfully open and operate Mexican restaurants, and they both do, then what power are we talking about? If the issue is some traditional vector of oppression, like that the Mexican restaurantier is being denied a loan by a bank which is preventing them opening their restaurant, the blame lies on the bank not the anglo burrito seller.
It's bullshit when white people copy something and get success by mooching off of people of color to get there as POC aren't given due credit (or $$$).
The two girls in Oregon mentioned specifically the food culture that they had been inspired by and the aspect of it that they were trying to use, what's the appropriate method of giving credit when you learn a technique that's not unique to any individual person?
posted by bracems at 8:24 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
So the problem here is that they are using too authentic of a technique?
Yes, exactly. When it happens between rich white owners of mass-produced goods who retain armies of lawyers, "using too authentic of a technique" is referred to as "theft of trade secrets" or "infringement of a process patent" and there's an enormous government-funded litigation and enforcement framework provided by society to assure the putative rights of those individuals.
In contrast, it's expected that whatever anyone wants to take can be taken from unimportant persons like average members of minorities and other marginalized groups.
There's probably a conversation that could be had about which category in the eyes of society a Spanish-speaking citizen of Mexico would fall under when they're in Mexico, but the OP article is just trying to dismiss cultural appropriation as a concept, in general.
posted by XMLicious at 8:27 PM on May 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
The saddest burritos I've ever eaten were from a hippyish pseudo-Mexican place on the east coast.
Burritoville?
posted by elsietheeel at 8:27 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Burritoville?
posted by elsietheeel at 8:27 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
That cultural appropriation is a one-way street where the evil gabacho steals from the poor, pathetic Mexicans yet again.
Yep, it's so patronizing, creating this idea that minorities can never compete on their own merits. What so many call "help" can just make us look so helpless.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:29 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yep, it's so patronizing, creating this idea that minorities can never compete on their own merits. What so many call "help" can just make us look so helpless.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:29 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
My fave taco place in LA is North African at Revolutionario.
If this is appropriation, I say we need more of it.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:31 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
If this is appropriation, I say we need more of it.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:31 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Many Mexican born and raised people are white- can they open burrito restaurants? If they can, then how is it about power? If not, what type of restaurant are they allowed to open? Or are white mexicans verboten from the restaurant industry?
posted by long haired child at 8:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by long haired child at 8:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
We'll be happy to give you the burritos if you please can stop the orange one from calling this a taco.
posted by Omon Ra at 8:42 PM on May 30, 2017
posted by Omon Ra at 8:42 PM on May 30, 2017
I ate at Taco Bell just tonight. Whatever the fried chicken cut into triangles for dipping into cheese sauce was, no one thought it was Mexican.
They were fine, not as good as the fried chicken shell chalupa that preceded them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:43 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
They were fine, not as good as the fried chicken shell chalupa that preceded them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:43 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
And to piggyback off of this, there is a lot of racism against darker-skinned, more Native-blooded Mexicans or Mexicans who speak one of the 55 minority languages in Mexico (e.g. Mayan languages) versus Spanish, etc. There are a lot of very white Mexicans who speak Spanish, some very dark-skinned Mayans, and in general a lot of diversity within Mexico.
posted by koavf at 8:44 PM on May 30, 2017
posted by koavf at 8:44 PM on May 30, 2017
All recipes are stolen. You must stop eating everything.
posted by tommyD at 8:52 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tommyD at 8:52 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Many Mexican born and raised people are white- can they open burrito restaurants?
Oh shit, I see the misunderstanding here. You're under the impression that white people are being barred from opening restaurants. This isn't the case. Crisis averted.
posted by ODiV at 8:52 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Oh shit, I see the misunderstanding here. You're under the impression that white people are being barred from opening restaurants. This isn't the case. Crisis averted.
posted by ODiV at 8:52 PM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Many Mexican born and raised people are white- can they open burrito restaurants? If they can, then how is it about power? If not, what type of restaurant are they allowed to open? Or are white mexicans verboten from the restaurant industry?
Yeah so this isn't one of the things where "There aren't any simple answers to the yes-or-no questions I came up with after a few minutes of thinking about it, so none of these issues are real!" is an effective argument.
The dominant Spanish-speaking culture of Mexico still spends quite a bit of time grinding the remaining indigenous cultures under its heel, so cultural appropriation is definitely a thing which can happen in Mexico. As koavf points out, on preview.
posted by XMLicious at 8:52 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
ALSO I'm not sure the cart closed because of the protest. It's described as a pop up. Maybe it just closed cuz it closed.
The cart didn't close at all. These "kooks" just used somebody else's cart on Saturdays. That cart ("Tight Tacos : An Authentic Street Taquero") is still open. For that matter, there's only been on Saturday since this all went down. For all we know they'll be back in a few days.
posted by msalt at 8:53 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
The cart didn't close at all. These "kooks" just used somebody else's cart on Saturdays. That cart ("Tight Tacos : An Authentic Street Taquero") is still open. For that matter, there's only been on Saturday since this all went down. For all we know they'll be back in a few days.
posted by msalt at 8:53 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
since those ended up as garbage fires and i don't have hopes for this one
Really no need to poison the discussion before it even happens. Growth and change is possible...even here. And this is a serious-enough issue worth unpacking.
posted by Miko at 8:54 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Really no need to poison the discussion before it even happens. Growth and change is possible...even here. And this is a serious-enough issue worth unpacking.
posted by Miko at 8:54 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
I strongly second jim in austin's recommendation for The Tex-Mex Cookbook, which is a fascinating regional history of Texas and Tejano culture that also has recipes.
A quote from the introduction:
"We can all thank Diana Kennedy for inadvertently granting Tex-Mex its rightful place in food history. By convincing us that Tex-Mex wasn't really Mexican food, she forced us to to realize that it was something far more interesting: America's oldest regional cuisine."
posted by nicebookrack at 8:55 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
A quote from the introduction:
"We can all thank Diana Kennedy for inadvertently granting Tex-Mex its rightful place in food history. By convincing us that Tex-Mex wasn't really Mexican food, she forced us to to realize that it was something far more interesting: America's oldest regional cuisine."
posted by nicebookrack at 8:55 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
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I fault those women only for opening their burrito stand in one of the major centers of call-out culture. Hey, bring your flaky handmade tortillas to any Midwestern university town and you'll have lines round the block without the ridiculous shaming. At least for now.
posted by tully_monster at 5:51 PM on May 30, 2017 [9 favorites]